Nov 13, 2023 Historic Landmark Commission on 2023-11-13 5:30 PM

And when I came back on All right, I'm gonna call the meeting to order It and I will now call the regular meeting to order at 530 p.m And our first order of business is a Pledge of Allegiance of the United States in the Texas White House And to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all And now the Texas flag Honor the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state, under God, one and indivisible How about those rings? All right, thank you for that So, our items today, we are going to start with item 2A, number HLC 23-50 And our agenda is to consider approval of the minutes for the October 9th, 2023 meeting And I will entertain a motion or discussion for these minutes Move approval Make a motion to approve Second by Sean, any discussion on them? All right, I will take a vote, all in favor, raise your hand please All right, any opposed? None, okay It passes, thank you for that All right, our next item 2B, number COA 23-2007 And our agenda is to hold a public meeting and consider an application for a certificate of appropriateness In accordance with section 2.9.2 of the Denton Development Code To rehabilitate the existing residents and construct a new rear addition at 314 Marietta Street Within the West Oak Area Historic District The site is located on the east side of Marietta Street, just south of Houston Place So, Cameron, we will listen to you please Thank you, Kara As stated, this is at 314 Marietta Street The owners are Travis and Sarah Rigsby And the construction date is circa 1940 And it's highlighted here in the red So, the building's history, it was constructed for a Ms. Susie Shepard The architectural style itself is a minimal traditional style And some of the defining features on that current residence are the double-hung windows, a low-pitched roof Minimal overhang eaves, and minimal architectural details So, the request today, as the chair stated, is for rehabilitation of the existing residents As well as a rear two-story addition Just so you all know, as stated in the AIS, or in your backup agenda The original request was for a demolition Staff has been working with applicants since July of this year They originally came to staff with a construction of a new two-story, new traditional craftsman style residence But we have in front of you today the recap of the existing structure as well as the new addition So, I'll walk you all through that And feel free to ask me questions as we go I know there's a lot going on on this project It's kind of a different project than we've seen in the past Feel free to interrupt me as I go So, these are the current conditions This is that front west façade that's facing Marietta Street You see that existing garage as well as that front entrance there The current conditions on that side façade So, this is the south façade right here And then you have that rear façade which has that existing sun porch So, the proposed elevation drawings This is the proposed elevation from the front along Marietta Street It does, I just want to highlight what that existing structure is And then this is the addition The proposed addition as well as the rehabilitation of that existing structure It would utilize that existing wooden tongue and groove siding It would include wooden double hung windows as well as multi-length windows to reflect that 1940s tax photo that it originally had It would be utilizing asphalt shingles which it currently is utilizing As well as that low pitched roof that we have here on that second story addition But also on that existing residence as well And also in addition to They would be using a fiberglass door which with 1940s era appropriate windows to kind of match and reflect what was there in 1940 originally And they do want to keep the faux garage They want to incorporate a faux garage door so that you understand what the original use was at that time It would not be utilized as a garage You'd have the rear garage here in that new addition But I just wanted to highlight those pieces So looking at the demolition of the floor and roof plan It would be demolishing that rear patio in the back And then the roof line here would be removed so they could add that second story addition This is the proposed design So before I kind of get into the elevation drawings I wanted to show this first so that you all have kind of a feel of what it would look like Obviously it's not going to really be providing that Well that second story addition is doing It is complementary to that existing structure But it's not creating a false documentation of what has been developed on the property over time So it's not going to be utilizing the same multi light windows It is going to be using double hung windows to be complementary But not going to be exactly a duplicate Any questions so far? Yes? Is that an existing door that was I think on the south side? On the south side? Is that the south side? Yes, so this would be replacing a window Into a door? Yes, for access to the driveway So the front west facade which is once again the one facing Marinade Street So this is our existing facade We have the current garage entrance We have the front door And then we have double hung windows So here's the 1940s tax photo The applicant would like to bring back kind of the door and the windows that are reflective of that 1940s era And as well they're going to be using a faux garage door so that they can use the interior space And then they're going to be highlighting that with some leaded glass that is reflective of the 1940s as well To allow some interior light into that room Also here we have the second story addition It would be utilizing double hung windows It would be having a complementary low pinched roof It would have two garage doors It would have a low fence line as well as landscaping to kind of keep people's focus on that main structure That original structure in the front It would also be utilizing wooden tongue and roof siding which is on the original structure today This is the rear east facade So this is facing towards the rear of the property Just so that you all have a better idea of what's being demolished You have the demolition of the rear exterior wall, so this one exterior wall And then the sun porch right here And this is just the general location of where that is In addition to the new two story addition That sun porch there was probably not original, was it? No This is the north facade So this is facing the neighboring property So it's about three feet off that property line It's pretty close so it's not visible from the street But just so you all have a general idea what it looks like It does have an exterior doorway And it has the light into that current garage door Or current garage Once that garage is converted into actual living space They'll be putting a door in and then changing up the windows as well To kind of fit out their floor plan a little bit better But once again, it's keeping that existing facade adding the rear addition If that rear addition was removed in the future You would still have your main structure Just some exterior changes would need to be made So are they saying they're going to change out as many windows as they're going to go to fewer windows? Yes, on that north facade Because it's right on the property line with the neighboring property But I won't be able to see it So they're going to take out the original windows And want to replace them These are not original So they're original locations but they're not original windows at this point They've been changed Because these all used to be that multi-light window But yes, the sizing would be changing This is the south facade This is looking, here's the garage right here If you're coming up from the driveway, you'd have the garage So just to kind of show you where that original porch or that porch is right now That's where this is kind of approximately located And then this double window, double hung window would be the door They would add a new doorway And then this would change to a smaller singular double hung window So once again, just want to kind of after looking through the elevation drawings Because they do have these kind of draft notes over the top Saying do not use if you looked at your packet HLC review only, do not build Just want to once again come back to this So, SAS analysis Usually when we're looking at these types of projects We're looking at that secretary of interior standards for rehabilitation In this case, staff really focused on what the property was used for historically As well as the addition of that new rear construction So we're focusing on one, two, three, five, nine, and ten So I know this is something that we're not used to really seeing In past preservation projects, we've usually been seeing rehabilitation In terms of just rehabbing as is According to historic documentation and not doing an addition Or if we do an addition, it's hidden in the back, we don't see it But in this case, this does meet code And it really is preserving a structure that is about 750 square feet So that they can grow into it as a family Which we're not seeing a lot of in Denton nowadays Especially in our historic districts with our smaller homes So staff really does want to highlight that this is preserving that existing structure It's avoiding demolition It could be demoed, it could be raised, and we could just replace it with a larger structure that's not historic at all It does retain that same use In that second story addition, because they're just removing that one exterior wall in the sun porch If it was demoed in 30 years, you would still have your main existing structure back And you would have to change some of the window placements and some of the doors But that's an easy fix in comparison to this It does avoid a false sense of history, which ties back to our Secretary of Interior Standards for Rehabilitation We don't want to falsify history of what's been developed on that property over time But it is still compatible with that historic structure It still highlights some of that minimal traditionalist style While not stating that, oh yes, it was built in 1940 As I said, it refrains from imitating the historic building And it still recognizes something different, but it's still complementary In addition, it's set back from that front facade of that historic structure They're wanting to keep people's focus on that front facade by adding a low fencing By adding landscaping, by keeping the faux garage door So that people understand, yes, that structure originally had its garage right there But it's no longer a used garage And then in addition to that, staff looked at our debt and development code section 4.9.6C Which is our West Oak-era historic district Staff focused on the architectural detail, the building placement, chimneys, additions, facade materials, roof forms Windows and doors, which I provided a lot of detail in the backup So if you all have any questions But staff is recommending approval for this certificate of appropriateness To rehabilitate these sustained residents and construct a new rear addition at 314 As it does meet our Secretary of Interior standards for rehabilitation As well as sections 4.9.6C of the debt and development code Any questions? And the advocate is here if you all have additional questions for him He can come up and just talk about the project himself But if you have any questions for staff, I'm happy to answer them right now Anybody have any questions? No, except I think it's a wonderful idea And I would never agree with doing that I think it's a great plan My question is why on those on the north and south side Are they not using the same size windows that they're taking out? That's what gives me heartburn For having a historic structure, we are changing I totally understand taking out a window for a door placement I understand that my heartburn is over those sides not having the same size windows Because on that flip side it's really different I can ask the advocate because I'm not sure of the floor plans Travis, do you want to come up? Sure, yeah Good afternoon, I'm Travis So the north, this is the north side here And then obviously we're changing it to less windows And that is because the inside is actually a kitchen area Right here is actually the kitchen where the stove top is And so to have the vent hood come in right here It would be right in front of this window here So that was just an architectural adjustment that we made Obviously they're not the same windows, but yeah it's an interior design That would cause the exterior to have to be adjusted And yeah the door location was there just for a side entrance there And keep in mind if you do go visit the site There is a heavy tree line on the north side so you actually can't see any of this Even from the, looking from west to east onto the front of the facade You wouldn't be able to see any of these windows really It's a winner No leaves on the trees Potentially, yeah I haven't lived there yet so I don't know So you can see a little bit of the full line It's a pretty heavy brush on this north side here It's just a significant reduction in windows is my only thing I mean it's a significant difference I'd like to know the percentage of how many windows are there now and what you're going to Because what's being put in looks to be a lot smaller as well as taking out windows And we know part of windows are a whole part of history and what was there We had a whole presentation on it a few years ago That's the only thing, it's not even the addition But it's taking out windows and replacing with a significant less amount is where I have an issue So if I were to move, look at the same surface area of window, would you be okay with that? Probably But it's not just me, we have a whole board here So again, that's just me, they may totally feel different Well, I find that, in my opinion, this aligns with the standards that we use for this process And I think that this is the sort of adjustment that I completely understand what Angie's saying But I think this is the kind, in my opinion, this is the kind of adjustment that is understandable When you look at the scale of the project and what is being saved here Instead of so many bungalows, so many smaller homes are just wiped out and replaced by larger, multi-story homes And I think this aligns with the standards Can you tell us the standards on windows? So, when... I should say, overall, I find that it aligns with the standards I do think, perhaps, there's maybe an exception with the windows I'm comfortable with, speaking for myself So, when it comes to windows itself in terms of our code and the development code What we're looking at is mostly style, openings, framing Style, openings, and framing, and what glass is being used So, in terms of openings, it's not necessarily saying Oh, you can... it doesn't say anything against opening or closing openings It's just saying if you're opening these openings that they're similar in size and style And did it on that north and south side? Because to me, visually, it did So, have we looked at that? If they're similar in size, I get But to me, they didn't look that way on the door when I'm missing something So, are you talking about... sorry, the doors or the windows? These windows These are visible from the right-of-way, so I did not review these They are not visible from the right-of-way And it's changing the historic structure. Is that not the part that's on historic structure? Correct, but that is not for HLC's review That is only for staff review If it is not visible from the right-of-way, it is not under HLC's protocol Yeah, so there's a lot of administrative stuff that's not reviewed by HLC Because it's administrative, so it's not in the right-of-way Good to know. First I've ever heard of that in four years, but I'm glad to know Okay So, what we're really focusing on is these, because these will be visible from the right-of-way And then the front facade So, this, here, here, there Because if you look at the structure, yeah, so there we go That's the best view Okay, so if the other side is not, I'm good If that's not part of HLC, then I'm good And I want to say kudos for changing your mind on demoing Yeah, sure, Cameron was a big part of that Because that would have to come in front of HLC Yeah, just a real creative solution And I think it's additive, actually, in my opinion So, I mean, it adds something to that process Sure, yeah I would say because Yeah, Cameron and I, we walked into it together, and I think Cameron can testify that I almost fell It's in a very bad state The single bathroom that's there, the toilet was falling through the floor They use two-by-fours for the shower, and they have just a garden hose for the shower hose Yeah It's in a very bad state Lots of living There's lots of broken windows There's a family living there, so it's kind of sad, but Yeah, all the, I would say most of these windows were all broken And they just had sheets hanging over them, which was Yeah Surprising Right It was, yeah, it's not in great shape, so I'm thankful for Travis even considering Right Wanting to repurpose and rehab this house and give it new life I think it looks fantastic Yes Thank you Are you going to live there? Yes, ma'am You are I hope so Yeah, that's the hope All right Thank you Thank you guys Any other discussion? No No discussion All right, would anyone like to make a motion? I will move approval of this request, and once again I say it's just a marvelous idea Can I second that? Okay, thank you for that All in favor, raise your hand please Any nays? Thank you Good luck to you Thank you, Travis, good luck on that I appreciate you guys We want to be in drive to the open house Absolutely Yeah Yeah I'll contact you tomorrow Okay, so I can head out You can head out, thanks for coming, we appreciate it Thank you all so much Yes All right, carrying on item 2C, number 8LC23-042, and our agenda is to hold a discussion and consider approval of the 2024 Historic Landmark Commission meeting calendar So I brought it up for everyone We are placing most of them on that second Monday, which we are usually consistent with The only dates that we're not doing that is November 11th, it's been moved to the 18th due to Veterans Day, the city is closed that day As well as during March, spring break does fall on that week of the 11th, so we moved it also to the 18th But everything else falls on that second Monday Do you happen to know in November, is Thanksgiving that same week or the next? Are we a week earlier this year for Thanksgiving? I'd say it's almost the fourth Thursday of the month Fourth Thursday, okay, so that works Yeah, perfect Okay, so a week before Any questions, thoughts? Well, maybe you think I have even the progress notion Looks good to me It's good Let me see, I'm sending a couple people with those dolphins and kids All right, can we get a motion to approve the calendar? Motion to approve Thank you Sean, thank you Lenny All right, everyone in favor of approval of the calendar, raise your hand please Anyone opposed? No opposed Good deal Okay, we're going to move to our work session, item 8.3, number is HLC 23-049 On our agenda is to discuss and to determine opportunities for public outreach and education by the Historic Landmark Commission Do we have any discussion on any other outreach and education? I can bring up the matrix if that's helpful Let's see what's in the matrix, that helps Who's that first? Oh yeah, we'll discuss public outreach and education after this So I will bring an example forward I did hear from Commissioner Gregory who was not able to attend this evening And she had interest in doing a house tour She felt that other cities that are in the Metroplex have been doing house tours for many years They raise funds that way, they host it annually, you know, Swiss Avenue does that on Mother's Day I think Fort Worth has a few She was really interested in potentially doing it in the Denian neighborhood Which I think she had mentioned last time Just because we have a really large grouping of mid-century modern homes down there That are now coming into kind of that period of significance in terms of that hitting 50 plus years And she thinks we should showcase it and be something that we should be really proud of So that was her suggestion, I told her I'd bring it on her behalf But I think she just really wants us to do a home tour that hasn't been on Oak Street Which I understand we have a lot of areas that have great architectural significance Well I think if they pay some yard people to come in and house cleaners, I think that would be lovely [Laughter] I'd volunteer my house to that [Laughter] I think that would be good and I think there's a lot of architecture I think about, I always call it my next door neighbor, the T.W. House The Gretchen Gibson House Which is a fabulous, it's an oh no four Yes it is So it's absolutely fabulous And I know you don't probably want a house here or one over here and stuff But those types of things really are significant Now with something like that you have university approval and those kinds of things So what is the step, if that's something we want to move forward with Do we just mark homes we would like to tour and knock on the door? I'm kidding [Laughter] So when Commissioner Aguri had brought it forward to me, I had informed her Let's find out the houses that you're interested in Or that the commission's interested in We'll figure out the contact information I will send a letter on behalf of HLC stating that we're really interested in doing a house tour It would probably help having HLC if there's interest going and talking with them If they're not responsive I'll give you guys an update on the Southeast End stuff at Matrix But kind of, that's kind of how I initially stated Let's just start having those conversations and saying why it's important Because a lot of people first of all don't want you coming into their house Because usually when it comes to a house tour you're going in someone's house A lot of people don't like that because it's their personal space A lot of the house tours that I've been on in the past, they literally Some let you go everywhere and then some just say Hey, you're allowed to go in my entryway, my living room, my kitchen And then I have a back entrance that you can go out the back And then you can come down my driveway or whatever it may be So it's really just first making that contact and saying Hey, this is our interest, we really want to get this started in Denton And give some examples of other cities in the area that are doing it And how successful it's been and say Do you have any interest? And if they have interest, awesome Then we can kind of talk about that next phase But if there's no interest then you move on to the next person Or you think, okay, maybe we're not ready for a house tour Maybe we're ready just for, you know, how we talked, you all talked in the past Sean, you part of that conversation, but in the past we talked about the block parties You had stated block parties would be amazing Just to get people educated about why you should be excited about your neighborhood What's going on in your neighborhood? What, you know, why should you get designated? Whatever it may be, so maybe that's a good step versus a house tour So I think, I think it's a great idea I think it's just really what are you all interested in helping, you know, Denton learn about And we have Denton Revealed coming in May again You know, we had talked about you all doing block parties for that So if that's something of interest, we can do that for Denton Revealed in May So it's just, it really, the world is your oyster And it's kind of just like, what, what do you all want to do as a commission? And what do you think people should care about or should know about? What do you guys think? No pressure, guys You know, one of those houses, Denton Tremont House has just been bought by someone else And he is really, I mean, he has a tremendous job in front of him Because much of it was Rod Ed and he's going to be doing much of it himself So I don't know how long he's even estimating it will take him But it would be wonderful to have it when he gets done with that Bring it back and focus No, and hearing that Travis here tonight with what he's done I also see this as an opportunity to raise awareness about you all Like how we work closely with people in terms of, you know, creating a project So there's an opportunity to share stories there too About successes and wins Does that make sense? And so that way people can get an idea and, you know, like see something like this Even in the planning stages, right? You get them to then think about, oh wow Instead of just like polishing it and going, you know, scorch earth and start from the ground up Wow, what then? I know this is kind of my wheelhouse because I build tours and give them I've got a historic tour actually that I've started on Sundays now Oh, wonderful And so I lead them around the square and it's like I tell them stories about what used to be there And what's there now and how what's there now is there because of reasons and determined people And the work of like the Historic Commission And I've been getting a lot of really great feedback I mean, honestly, the reason I put it together is because I also wanted to raise awareness about what was going on with City Park West And of course, now that that's failed, we got like what five years before we can have another go at it, right? That's super frustrating But making people aware that like, hey, the downtown that you enjoy, there's no guarantee that it will stay the same unless you're a tenant And there's also no guarantee unless we vote and participate So anyway, it's just kind of my thinking is that it's also a great way to just raise awareness of what possibility So if we want to talk like things that have worked in the neighborhoods, maybe create a wish list of homes that have been helped to be rehabbed by the city And then have them tell their stories about that rehab. Does that make sense? I mean, because that can be fascinating to a lot of people who might like, you know, in Wendy's neighborhood Looking at how does that process work? What kind of things, right? So, so I guess just so I understand so past kind of COA projects like certificates of properties that have come through That the HLC has voted on and reviewed that have been what we think have been a success Yeah, to include that kind of a wish list because that might also open up possibilities for different types of stories Help to educate the public on what you all do and quite importantly To add to that too, Kevin, I think something that was important tonight when you said, hey, that's not HLCs I think that's important to know that, hey, that's for staff And I think it's important to showcase what we've approved and that we're not so bad to work with Right, right And the reason is, is it we haven't had a reputation like that? I'm being honest here from the heart We haven't been, it is not always been easy to work with and to say, we are here to help Approving that, we kept that structure for me and Dimash But yet not only that, it's falling in line with all the guidelines Right So I think it's important to say that and then to say, hey, this isn't your thing, then that's fine with me I mean, does that make sense? Yeah, no, it definitely I think people need to know that It definitely does because, you know, that's one of the things that I think as a commissioner, I agree You all need to talk about your successes because a lot of people are scared by preservation here in Denton And they see you all as the obstacle to them being able to do whatever they want with their property They always see it as an obstacle or a challenge versus, okay, let's, how do we work together so we can both get what we want out of this And where it's a win-win for both the city and you all as a commission as well as the property owner, which we saw tonight He still gets the square footage that he needs for his growing family, but he's still preserving the structure And being, creating something that's compatible with it So I Start there and we get, and we can show the successes, then we might get people that are willing to come back into, hey, yeah, maybe we want to be designated Right Because right now I don't think the interest is there, so Yeah Can I mention something along those lines, because experiences I've had recently with some, I really caught a couple of earfuls about appearing before the commission This was in years past, this is, all right, touches on that, but also, and this, these were a couple of commercial structures Pretty old structure from one of them, particularly The owner just decided this really wasn't worth it, and it's about what can we, you know, the carrot and stick Can we improve the carrot, I know we can't, but you know Some people are, they're just frustrated, and that's one reason people, more people are showing up, I'm starting to get the impression, it's like, well, why bother You know, I don't know what other cities do compared to what we have done, if we used to be more generous or not, and I'm sorry if you've addressed this before No, it's okay I forgot So I don't know, so this is more common of what I'm hearing No, and I definitely, that's something that I hear, I hear about in the past a lot I hear about the present, I hear about what we want to do in the future, I hear about all the different things, and I hear the good, the bad, and the ugly, I hear everything And one of the things that I've been hearing is that people want to, people want the city to be transparent across the board with just everything that they do And so one of the things that I thought would be great was to do just like quick little video snippets of you all introducing yourselves so that people can see you and be like, oh, okay, I can put a face to a name, I'm not, like, I know that person, you know, they lived on the block Or, oh, I've run into them, they're not scary, like, you know, just kind of doing those things because I think that's the only thing that's been beneficial for me as the historic preservation officer is getting out there and people aren't like, first of all, they learn that I'm not a boy Second of all, they learn that I'm not scary and that I really am trying to work with you, but there are just certain things where my hands are tied, I just don't have a choice sometimes, and I'm going to do what I can to get you across the finish line But at the same time, we have, there's some give and take. But the long goal is, let's do something good for the community, not as individuals, let's do something that benefits the community and preserves this building or whatever it may be for the community in the long run. That's the main goal that everyone should have. So I've talked to Denton Television, talked about doing just a video because the county's having the same issue, because they do the state and federal regulations. They do the National Parks designation, so National Register, Sean knows all this, they do the state record, Texas Historic Landmarks, we're local, but they were talking about the same thing, no one wants to designate. No one wants to do this or that because one, they're not educated about it, or two, they just don't want their property rights being taken. But at the state, and that's the thing, it's not here to take property rights, we still want you to be able to do what you want to do, it's just, how do we find that balance? But that has not been before you came. Right. That was not the goal. I still think the money is often the bottom line for a lot of these folks, it has to be, that's not, they need, I don't know, this is just what I'm hearing again and again and again. Having said that, anyway, I've passed out a lot of your cards, and I want to say I really appreciate how approachable you are. I get consistent good feedback, people's interactions with you, and I'm really grateful for that. I like the idea of what you're talking about with the video segments, I think that's great. I really think myself that our problem, and I think that was true of the recent election, and I think we could have, with harder work, we could have gotten City Hall West across the finish line. But I think people just don't understand, without a daily newspaper that's giving you information about what's going on in your city, you know, different subjects, there just isn't any consistent way. You know, even when there are little signs posted about, follow us on social media, something, and it's five things listed, and you think, excuse me, I'm probably this many that I have to go through, and you think I'm going to look at that many more? We need some place that you can get good information, and I have wondered if it would be worth it to approach, for the city to approach the dead market chronicle, about, especially since they've been purchased now. Of course some of the same people are still there, and it's not working yet, I can assure you, because nobody calls you back, and nobody answers the phone. And all those things are, they just dissuade people from doing anything more. But I think if we could educate people so that they, I can't tell you how many of the long proposals, people didn't have a clue about, and they had the wrong end of the stick about the rest of them. Lenny, I have a suggestion, this is something that I need to research, but you just made it pop up in my head talking about that. You know, each board and commission does have a landing page in terms of who you just see the members are, you know, who the roster is, and kind of the schedule, but what I see in other cities is that every historic landmark commission has a page in terms of information, how to get in contact with y'all, what your role is, kind of explaining, sometimes some of them have headshots so that people can see and put a face to a name, similar to the video, but I'm just, this is something I'm going to have to ask IT, I'm going to have to work with our website, just because if HLC does it, I don't know how it's going to trickle through the other boards and commissions, and they might not have time or want to do that. But I feel like moving forward, HLC should and needs to have a larger role in how Denton is moving through development, and just growing in general, that I feel like it would be very beneficial to this group to have a landing page that's connected to the historic preservation page that actually shares what you're, like I said, what you do, what you're here for. And maybe if you all do that video, that video can be connected to that page, and then it just updates as we get new commissioners on board. And I think it's imperative that we educate people on what we don't do, and what is administrative approval versus HLC, because in the past, and I know in the past because I'm a historic home, and I had to come before the board, way before I was part of this board. I firsthand know, and when we were able to hand things over for administrative approval, instead of for small things that have to go to a commission, that is huge. I don't know that people still realize that, and because it's made such progress in my mind on what we don't have to come before us. I think people need to know that. I think probably what you have in your full might have been some of the really petty things. The nuance. That's right. And the point that, hey, he's like, this is one particular, but this structure is already old, and it's already expensive because I'm learning personally. It's already expensive, you know, and. You know, if we have a picture of this house. If we have a picture of it when it's done, so that people could see what's possible. That would help to write before and after, and I really appreciate him working with you. I mean, I think that's fabulous. Yeah, I was gonna say it was well and you working with him to be clear that you were able to talk him out of demolishing. I take that as a win. But these kinds of stories, that's where I'll talk to some people that I know over in journalism, but, you know, we decided to do like a house tour a block party. I'll see if I can get some of their students to do like a short documentary like film it and then, then we have something to feature for television, you know, I mean, right now I think that's great. Yeah, try to kill a few birds with one stone because yeah, but more people know here's what it is is how it works and that's why I like a win like we saw tonight. Here's a success story. And this is where both sides. Again, get you to win. We do positive publicity. Justin has hired a new chief communications officer, and one of the one of his goals is to be able to communicate positive news stories for the community and allowing the city to be part of that narrative so there, there may be some opportunity to work with Justin and his team, and for example this property owner, and that we had on the agency's agenda tonight, so maybe assist with documenting that story and especially with this project and seeing how it evolves so so there might be some opportunities to be able to do that. Maybe there is a press release to your point about you know getting something to the debt and record Chronicle if they get our emails on press releases opportunity to showcase a project in that nature so to be able to utilize that resource but I know he's really looking to be proactive and how can the city tell its positive stories. The thing is, when you say, Oh, well it's online, you just have to go online. The news paper are so. It's this big. Sure, you know where do I start on any one day. When I'm used to the fact that we could just get the newspaper. I know they do that, some kind of publication by the city every month or something. Oh, I think the quarterly quarterly resident Yeah, yeah, but it doesn't have the stuff in it that we really want to know. I mean, they seem to delight in putting in, we accomplished this great thing here. You know, actually, well maybe it could be an HLS, there could be an HLC spotlight in the next quarterly that comes such a highlight can highlight a few projects but they can do this project to maybe two other projects that you will feel like they did and it can be a spotlight from the Historic Landmark Commission saying hey here are wins for 2023, you should know, because, you know, $1 million on streets, since they're all still in trouble. Why can't you manage it better than, you know, that raises a question. I want to have people look at that's really remarkable I didn't know they could do that, or beautiful. Yes, I think about the wins that we've had and I think about the solar panels on as far as we've come with those on when we had the presentation and we're like, it was like you know a light bulb went off. I think that's huge for a win for what where we've come on those things. So I'm all for that. And if the commission decides to do a house tour or volunteer mine but I don't know that mine's that architecture. I have two original bathrooms that I'm not touched, but it's amazing. Most people don't have time. Well honestly, most people, aside from just the straight architectural features, they enjoy the story. They want to hear the stories of who lived there what their lives were like. Somebody drives by their little house on Marietta. Yeah, then when it's finished. That's right. Right. And if you can have a picture of that. Oh, I know. And then think about 50 years from now. Exactly, like, like Travis said, it's, it was very rough, I felt it did not wear proper shoes did not know the floor was gonna be slippery, nor level. It's so I, the fact that he's willing to even think about rehabbing it was a huge win. But so just so that I have a better understanding of kind of what we've gathered gathered from this is house tour is definitely something we want to look towards in the future but not something that's imminent right like needs to happen right now that's maybe long term goal. And then, in terms of we want kind of that positive publicity right now and just education of what your roles are what you're looking at what you're reviewing what are some good examples so maybe. So that would include maybe didn't television video or another type of video that maybe you and T students document, we get some before and afters of successful projects, and I'll talk to it and kind of just our webmaster just to see can HLC have a landing page you really think it'd be very beneficial just so that people have a place to go when they're trying to learn what the heck is this is not easy to find. The city web page have you guys tried to find. It's not easy to get to it that would be great if even if the others don't, I'd rather HLC be the example and try to move forward and the others want to do it with them. Instead of us be the ones left. Okay, sounds good. And then maybe whatever the I need to figure out when the next quarterly newsletter is but maybe have a historic landmark commission spotlight or just preservation spotlight just saying some of the winds out there that accomplished. I wonder if the retrospect museum. Oh, yeah, that might also be an avenue. Okay, I say I've worked with. I work with Gary and then Gary connects me to Taylor. Sorry I work for Gary, and then, but it was more about didn't revealed and preservation month and kind of asking what those events were but that could be also another avenue. Okay, so I will just trying to think of things that already exist right have an audience that we can just kind of piggyback on. And my highlight tonight is like hey, here's a, here's a win. I'm excited about etc. Also, just because this will be an ongoing discussion that. So, my hometown Fayetteville Arkansas, Washington County they just won a an award for through preserve Arkansas. What they did was they put this place matters, and so they have these little signs like campaign signs. And what they did was that they created a campaign that aim to increase awareness, and then they shared them on social media for people to take their photos there etc. of historic preservation projects and historic preservation success stories. So like this is a little telephone booth that's in Prairie Grove, Arkansas, and it still works. It's just kind of a PR but it also gives people a way to interact with it and see like, hey, this place matters. Sorry. I know what you mean sorry. A couple of meetings ago I think it was a couple of years ago there were a couple of reporters here I think from UNT interview me and interviewed someone else. Well, they called me, and they called me on the phone. I had an applicant call me as well. And I don't feel comfortable talking outside of the commission, because to me we're a unity, and they were wanting me to help them with. Oh, sure, sure. Yeah. I didn't see the article though or was it linked to anyone who I think was interviewed. It might be in UNT journalism land. All right, are we ready to move on. Yes. All right. Number three be number a job see 23 dash 040. And our agenda is receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction on the historic landmark commission's request for local historic designation of eligible historic properties. Anybody have any properties that they want to bring forward tonight. I will see. Okay, no worries. No, ma'am. Okay, I, since we're on this topic I will give an update regarding the historic black churches to did receive their letters. Three did not. I left messages that every single one did not receive any return calls. I did talk to one of my colleagues who's working in that neighborhood as well. She's had the same difficulty trying to get in contact with those different pastors of those churches. So, we're still working on it, but I think that education aspect and maybe putting a face to a name, talking about maybe in the video what that letter is about. I think, hopefully that gives us an opening in the future, but right now we have not received any feedback. Thank you for your efforts. Yeah. All right. Any more discussion on that you ready to move on. Yes ma'am. All right. And three see number eight LC 23 dash 041. And our agenda is to hold a discussion regarding the historic landmark commission project matrix. So, any discussion on this. So, we just have this request so I'll remove this for next time. I do plan on bringing kind of the this one back benefits regarding preserving historic properties. I feel like we've had a, we've had our success stories as of late, but kind of, you know, what are those next steps, how do we start really educating and incentivizing those property owners and to designate their properties and I think that's something that we really need to have a discussion about, and really kind of dive in. So I plan on bringing that back, either in December of this year or January of 2024. But is there any items, just so you all know here were the work plan goals obviously we're wrapping up 2023 we're going to be moving into 2024. So I will be bringing back some of the, you know, it could be the same goals and could be different goals for 2024. Just so that you all know, moving into the new year. But is there anything in the meantime that you all want to add to the matrix, or do you think this is good for now and then we'll just kind of come up with new stuff in 2024. My thought is it's good now but I think we have to start building back positive winds. And I think it's kind of baby steps that we need to take. And I think when we do that, and then you scroll back to go down. I think that will help us, we have more people that are interested in becoming part of the historic commission of the community. And then that tax exempt I think is, it's really going to have some spotlights on it to be able to do that. Right now we're just not seeing that. Right. But I think that's tax and I think some incentives, we can start educating people about that. Again, you know, to Lance's point, it's expensive. And I can know what a benefit would be for them. I just think education is going to be huge. Sorry, anybody else have any other thoughts. No, but how do we do that. That's the big question. I think we talked about earlier on that on some of that, you know spotlight and a two easy credit quarterly thing I think those starting those are a great place to start. I think a landing page would be huge. That's a good place to start there because I think if we just start with a walking tour or touring homes and stuff. That would be better. A tour driving to a belief of different O'Neill board properties, in order to highlight my fair. That's one that I can serve. So I'll keep you guys on what's in there, and it's a new house or true good. Correct. It's one of the halls. There's one on Mariana to do you have this book. Oh, I don't have that book that they have it at the library. I have that book. I guess leave the list as is for now and then click it adding on to it when 2024 rolls around. Because obviously if we get our page, it'd be cool to have one of those widgets that then if there's an Instagram, we can control content like photos of homes or photos of past success. That's something that will be pretty easy to manage. Yeah, we do have an Instagram page but it's preserved in. Yeah, preserved in. But we haven't highlighted any of the HLC wins so that can be something that we start doing is adding that series to that. So that can be because it's supposed to be representing our special collections team and our historic preservation team, and y'all are part of that team. So it's definitely something that we can start highlighting for sure, because that's we can even highlight it tonight saying hey, here's what we consider to win. We have what it looks like now was proposed to be and we're really excited to see what it has in the future. We'll come back to you guys in a year with a new post or something. So, and speaking of wins Cameron what would you say, maybe in the last three months, so COAs that you've approved. Like, just a number. I don't want to know specific just like you just had a number. Yeah, let's revisit that because I'd like to include. Okay, those types of things. All right, any other discussion. If there's no discussion, I will move to adjourn. There you go. Thank you.