1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,500
 So this is the Board of Ethics meeting for Monday, November 6th at 5.30 p.m.

2
00:00:07,500 --> 00:00:18,000
 And we are going to start with item BOE 23-42, receive nominations and hold an election of the chair and vice chair.

3
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:25,000
 Just so that everyone is aware, Dustin said he was willing to be chair and vice chair if he was nominated.

4
00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:30,000
 -Willing to be what? Both? -Yeah, you could be, yeah.

5
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,000
 Okay, so I'll take nominations for chair first.

6
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:40,000
 I will nominate Panetta for chair.

7
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:45,000
 Okay. Are there any other nominations?

8
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:52,000
 Okay, we'll close the nominations and what about all in favor say aye.

9
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,000
 -Aye. -Okay.

10
00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:00,000
 Now for vice chair, so I'll entertain nominations for vice chair.

11
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:09,000
 -I will nominate Dustin. -Yeah.

12
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:15,000
 I think he'd be great. Any other, sorry, any other nominations?

13
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:24,000
 Okay, so all in favor of Dustin Pavlik being the vice chair of the Board of Ethics, raise your hand.

14
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,000
 -Aye. -That says unanimously, right?

15
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:40,000
 Okay, so on to item B, BOE 23-047, consider approval of minutes for October 2nd, 2023.

16
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:47,000
 Do I hear any, anyone want to move that we approve them?

17
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,000
 I move that we approve them.

18
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:58,000
 Patricia Renke moved approval of the minutes from October 2nd, 2023.

19
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,000
 Do you need it? I don't think we need it.

20
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,000
 -Second, yes. -Do you need it?

21
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,000
 -Second, yes. -Do you need it?

22
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,000
 -I second. -Andrea seconded.

23
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,000
 -So all in favor? -Aye.

24
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:18,000
 -I abstained because I wasn't here, so. -Okay, that's fair.

25
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:23,000
 -I didn't see BOE 23-046. -I'm sorry.

26
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:33,000
 In the past, because I had done exactly that, I was told that that was abstaining from the minutes was not an option just because we were absent.

27
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:42,000
 -Really? -It was actually the, yeah, so I just wanted to clarify that so that we are...

28
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,000
 -For the order, is that correct? I mean, I'm not denying it.

29
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,000
 -Yeah. -What do you want to do, since you sat down?

30
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,000
 -Well, I'll leave the chair's discretion on that.

31
00:02:51,000 --> 00:03:00,000
 -I don't have a problem, I mean, I think if you want to abstain because you weren't here, but I think the point of voting against it would be there's something in the minutes that you disagreed with.

32
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,000
 -Well, I didn't vote against it. -Yeah, I know, I know.

33
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,000
 -So how does that help with setting the precedent that...

34
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,000
 -I have never heard that, that's interesting.

35
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:22,000
 -It was my very first meeting and that's why I bring it up. My very first meeting on the board, I wanted to abstain because I had not been present and I had no way of voting for or against, in my opinion, so I just wanted clarification.

36
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:33,000
 -I think you're right, there's a rule for some boards that we don't do is abstention because this board is governed by the ethics code.

37
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,000
 -Because we're the quasi-judicial committee?

38
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:45,000
 -No, I mean, I just think in this case it's fine, also because it's not a deciding vote, I think it's the chair's discretion.

39
00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:50,000
 -Okay, I appreciate you bringing that up, I've never heard that.

40
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,000
 -Interesting.

41
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:59,000
 -How does that change if the minutes of that meeting are not complete or does that change anything?

42
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,000
 -No, it's the process.

43
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:16,000
 -I would think that someone would bring it up and say there's a problem with the minutes and then the motion would be approval as amended and then it's not a problem, but I don't know, it's kind of a weird thing to get hung up on.

44
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:21,000
 -Yeah, but we can get hung up on better things.

45
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,000
 -Let's find them.

46
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:38,000
 Okay, item C, BOE 23-046, hold a discussion and consider changes to the start time of regular Board of Ethics meetings.

47
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,000
 -This, I think, was requested last meeting.

48
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:54,000
 -It was someone who brought that up because for me, personally, daytime would be better, I notice it's tough being at 5.30 or 6 because people are fighting traffic.

49
00:04:54,000 --> 00:05:00,000
 -Yeah, and so we looked here at just some options, we could even change the day, I just didn't assume.

50
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:10,000
 -My other personal thing is I know there's at least three staff members who are having to stay late because of our meetings and if it's just as convenient to meet during the day,

51
00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,000
 I believe it would be better for them.

52
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:18,000
 So, not that I want to do that just around the staff, but it's a point.

53
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:23,000
 So, let's have discussion about this.

54
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:34,000
 -Undies in the morning, Madam Chair, would be very difficult for me due to my business and seeing what needs to be done because of the weekend.

55
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:43,000
 -I think we also would exclude a large population. For example, I'm a teacher, I would not be able to meet at all.

56
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:52,000
 So, in terms of inclusiveness, I would not. I would have to take a personal day every month to attend the meeting.

57
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,000
 And that would take care of all the other days that I have.

58
00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:02,000
 -So, is four o'clock a stretch for you as well?

59
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:07,000
 -Four o'clock is a stretch, but it's doable, especially since I'm close.

60
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:15,000
 I mean, for me, it's probably possible. Teachers that would come from other campuses, it probably would be more of a stretch in the future.

61
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,000
 I mean, if we're talking about accessibility of being able to serve on the board.

62
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,000
 -I don't think we have anybody else who is a teacher on the board.

63
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:38,000
 -Well, I wouldn't have a problem keeping it at 5.30, because I want safety travel for all of us. So, I would lean towards keeping it at 5.30, Madam Chair, just for the conversation we've had thus far.

64
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:48,000
 -I would love to see four, because I notice people are fighting traffic, and I think by four o'clock you'd leave the traffic.

65
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,000
 -Not today.

66
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,000
 -Not today.

67
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,000
 -But today would have been two o'clock.

68
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,000
 -Just for the record, I'm fine with a different time.

69
00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,000
 -Okay. What time would you like?

70
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,000
 -Oh, I don't have a preference for any of the times mentioned I can do.

71
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,000
 -Okay. Thank you. That's all you can do.

72
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:15,000
 -Are there any three or four o'clock conflicts for this room from council or other committees and city staff?

73
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,000
 -Not on Monday.

74
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,000
 -Not regularly.

75
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,000
 -Well, I'm a 5.30, so...

76
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:34,000
 -Okay. What about 4.30, because then you'd get here before traffic starts getting bad, and then 5.30 would be out of here when traffic is, like, between 5 and 5.30 when traffic is in danger.

77
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:50,000
 -Well, if we're moving to, like, three o'clock is prohibitive for our school schedule. Four o'clock is doable, however, like, currently I have a meeting right before this that is supposed to end at five o'clock, and it gives me enough time to travel.

78
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:59,000
 Now, if we are entertaining a four o'clock, then we'd have to move it. Like, for my availability, we'd have to move it from the first of my day.

79
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:12,000
 -I would say for those of us who are counselors, evening is not great for me, because I have to cancel people, because I see so many school students who can't leave school to see therapists.

80
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:23,000
 So, I guess, I mean, I'm just used to telling people I'm not available, but five o'clock in the morning, the prime time is for school students.

81
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:33,000
 -So, I hear 5.30, and I hear four o'clock as possible options.

82
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,000
 -Are you looking for a motion, Madam Chair?

83
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,000
 -Yes.

84
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:44,000
 -I move that we keep the current time of 5.30 for our ethics meeting.

85
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,000
 -Okay. Is there a second to that?

86
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,000
 -I'll second.

87
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,000
 -Okay. All in favor, raise your hand.

88
00:08:51,000 --> 00:09:01,000
 -So, Tom and Rob and David and Andrea, so it passes. So, we'll leave it at 5.30.

89
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:07,000
 -I'm sorry. So, there was four yeas and two nays?

90
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,000
 -Are you allowed to abstain from that vote, or do you have to take a stand on the way to the other?

91
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,000
 -I'm going to vote now. Do you want to vote one way or the other?

92
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:22,000
 -I don't know. -In fact, we need positive votes to make for a motion to pass. So, an abstention is the same as an aye.

93
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:32,000
 -So, I just need to be clear for the minute what the vote was. So, four yeas, one no, and one abstention?

94
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:55,000
 -Yeah. Item D, BOE 23-043, receive training and hold a discussion regarding the City of Denton Post ordinances, Chapter 2, Article 11, Ethics.

95
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,000
 So, take it away, Madison.

96
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:06,000
 -So, this is the updated training that y'all did get a preview of. It was changed a little bit based on that discussion, but everybody has to do it.

97
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:12,000
 I've been doing it at other boards and commissions, so I'm just going to run through it, and I'll stop every so often if y'all have questions.

98
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:20,000
 You're probably the most familiar with the Ethics Ordinance.

99
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:26,000
 So, we'll start today, we'll be covering the ethical expectations laid out in the City's Ethics Ordinance.

100
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:33,000
 The ordinance's mandates and prohibitions are what it requires, how city officials subject to the ordinance can request clarification on its application,

101
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:38,000
 and a quick overview of what happens if an ethics complaint is submitted against you as a city official.

102
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:46,000
 To begin, the City of Denton's Ethics Ordinance was adopted in 2018 and was most recently amended in 2023.

103
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:51,000
 The Ethics Code is intended to foster an environment of integrity for those that serve the City of Denton and its residents

104
00:10:51,000 --> 00:11:00,000
 by ensuring that decision makers provide reasonable stewardship of city resources and assets, and providing behavioral guidelines and requirements.

105
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:05,000
 The key goal of the Ethics Ordinance is to further the public's trust in those who govern their community.

106
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:10,000
 More specifically, the Ethics Ordinance outlines six aspirational expectations.

107
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:17,000
 These expectations cannot be used as the basis of an ethics complaint, but they are intended to guide city officials in carrying out their duties.

108
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:25,000
 These include conducting yourself in a manner that fosters public trust, performing your public duties with personal and organizational integrity,

109
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:30,000
 avoiding behavior that might call your motives into question and erode public confidence,

110
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:41,000
 placing the interests and concerns of Denton's residents above your own, valuing honesty, trustworthiness, diligence, objectivity, fairness, due process, efficiency, and prudence,

111
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:50,000
 and balancing transparency with the duty to protect personal privacy and preserve any confidential information that you have been trusted with.

112
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:58,000
 While the rest of the training will focus on specific behaviors that city officials must comply with, this is the most important section of the Ethics Ordinance.

113
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:06,000
 If you ever find yourself questioning if a specific action or inaction might be ethical, first ask yourself if it would align with these expectations.

114
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:12,000
 It's also important to realize that these expectations are not only focused on the way things are, but also how they appear.

115
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,000
 A city official has a position of privilege within their community that they must respect.

116
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,000
 Serving your community as a city official is an honor that requires integrity and dedication.

117
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:25,000
 In general, you can think about an ethics code as a stoplight.

118
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,000
 In some instances, the code clearly prohibits specific behaviors or creates a red light.

119
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:34,000
 However, in other areas, the code creates broader prohibitions or yellow lights.

120
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:44,000
 Yellow lights communicate that a city official should thoughtfully and cautiously consider if the action or inaction is ethical based on the city's expectations as they proceed.

121
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:49,000
 Throughout the presentation, I'll be calling out which parts of the code are red lights versus yellow lights to help provide guidance.

122
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:55,000
 So now that we've covered the basics of the city's ethical expectations and general guidance, I'll get into more specifics.

123
00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:04,000
 The ethics ordinance includes three mandates and nine prohibitions that cover different actions or behaviors that city officials may take, and I'll briefly cover them over the next few slides.

124
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:14,000
 Beginning with mandates, the ethics ordinance requires that city officials disclose certain business relationships if they are relevant to a pending matter.

125
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:30,000
 Specifically, if a business entity with a pending matter is owned by a city official's partner, the city official must disclose this relationship to the city secretary and the city auditor at least one business day before the meeting where the pending matter will be deliberated.

126
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,000
 All disclosures will be provided to the relevant body before the deliberations.

127
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:49,000
 This disclosure requirement is a yellow light in the ethics code as even though city officials are allowed to deliberate on these matters per the ordinance, it calls out that there might be a risk that this type of business interest may receive unfair treatment from the related city official.

128
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:59,000
 In addition, it requires that city officials comply with any financial disclosures required by Texas state law and that city officials report any person that they know has violated the ethics ordinance.

129
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:06,000
 These mandates are red lights and not reporting a known violation of the ordinance is itself considered to be a violation.

130
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,000
 So I'll stop here because this is the most confusing part of the ordinance I think.

131
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,000
 So are there any questions about this?

132
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:33,000
 I'd like to know, because you presented this to other boards and such, were there any questions that were asked that you thought might be pertinent to bring to our attention?

133
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:42,000
 No, there weren't a lot of questions asked to be honest. A lot of them have also been on the boards for several years so they saw the longer video too several times.

134
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:47,000
 I remember the PUD had a couple, but I don't recall them at this point.

135
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:48,000
 Yeah, I don't remember them.

136
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,000
 It was about investments I believe.

137
00:14:50,000 --> 00:15:01,000
 Yeah. Oh yeah, I did get a couple times a question about the difference between fair market value of a business and stock percentages.

138
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:12,000
 There was some question about if I own more than $600 worth of stock in a large major business, can I vote on things like that?

139
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,000
 Yes.

140
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:23,000
 But I think my understanding is that because it's stock it's different a little bit, especially for larger companies, but that's kind of what I'm trying to explain.

141
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:36,000
 And I think it was the question, and I didn't know if this was the appropriate time to ask that, but the question about stock caught my attention because I thought we may own some stock in smaller businesses even here, and would that affect us?

142
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:43,000
 I think that is a discussion for our future agenda items if we want to discuss that as a board, but that is something that has to happen.

143
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,000
 It might be permissible, Madam Chair.

144
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,000
 Yeah.

145
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,000
 I'll bring it back up one more time.

146
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:56,000
 Did no one have any questions about pending matter because I find it to be confusing?

147
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,000
 In fact, we have something we're going to discuss tonight.

148
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,000
 No one during the training presentation has had a question about pending matter.

149
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:13,000
 We did get one question after the ordinance training that I've got in the management reports that's in there, so we can talk about that question a little more then if you would prefer.

150
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:23,000
 I'd like to have all that because that's on the agenda, so sideways, but it's on.

151
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:35,000
 I'd like to second that thought because right now the entire conflict of interest section of our code weighs heavily on what is or is not pending matter.

152
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:47,000
 So that may be a debatable subject if we ever get back around to visiting, well, for example, the conflict of interest is starting out on the agenda tonight.

153
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:57,000
 So there may be some items here that may not apply in the future, so this is kind of a workable document, can we call it that?

154
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,000
 Well, this is the training on the current ordinance.

155
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:00,000
 Okay.

156
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:10,000
 Yes, you can certainly suggest amendments to the ordinance in the future, they have to be approved by the city council, and so if that happens in the future, this training will be updated for that process.

157
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,000
 So we're great to nothing long-term in any of this.

158
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:19,000
 Correct, this is just, I'm telling you this is what's in the ordinance right now because I am required to by the ordinance.

159
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,000
 That's fine.

160
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:33,000
 Okay, great, so are we good with this section? All right, on to prohibitions or potential city official behaviors that are specifically considered violations of the ethics ordinance.

161
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:49,000
 Beginning with conflicts of interest, ethical best practices suggest that a city official recuse from deliberating on a pending matter if they or their relative have a personal or economic interest in a business entity or property that's not shared with the general public.

162
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:55,000
 This general guidance is a yellow light that is intended to draw attention to the risk of conflicts of interest.

163
00:17:55,000 --> 00:18:03,000
 I should note that while this is good guidance for city officials, this general prohibition is not actually currently included in the city's ethics ordinance.

164
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:22,000
 This ordinance does include some red lights and specifically defines the following as conflicts of interest, owning 5% or more of a business entity's voting shares or stock, owning $600 or more of a business entity's fair market value, owning $600 or more of the fair market value of real property,

165
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:38,000
 receiving $600 or more in income from a business entity, serving on the board of directors or as an officer of a business entity or a nonprofit, or having solicited, received, or accepted an offer of employment from a business entity or person in the last 12 months.

166
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:49,000
 And you have a conflict of interest as defined on the slide. With a pending matter on an agenda, you are required to recuse yourself from the discussion and submit an affidavit of extension to the city auditor.

167
00:18:49,000 --> 00:19:02,000
 A pending matter includes an application seeking approval or authorization, proposal to enter into a contract, or a case involving the city that is or may be before a civil, criminal, or administrative tribunal.

168
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:10,000
 Further, it's a violation of the ordinance for a current city official to represent a person, group, or entity before a city board or commission for compensation.

169
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:16,000
 This prohibition also applies to former city officials for one year after termination of their official duties.

170
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:32,000
 Similarly, former city officials are prohibited from performing compensated work on a city contract or arrangement if they substantially participated in the negotiation, award, or administration of the contract unless that was limited to deliberations.

171
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:47,000
 With questions about what's currently a conflict of interest, as we discussed earlier, we can do, as the Board of Ethics, we can make proposals to change that, but this is the current.

172
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,000
 Good summary.

173
00:19:50,000 --> 00:20:02,000
 Alright, next, the ethics ordinance prohibits a city official or their relative from accepting any gift that might reasonably influence a city official in discharging their official duties.

174
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,000
 This is a general prohibition that acts as a yellow light for city officials.

175
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,000
 The ordinance does also include gift-related red lights.

176
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:18,000
 Specifically, a city official cannot accept a single gift valued more than $50 or multiple gifts with a total value of more than $200.

177
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:27,000
 In general, the gift is considered to be anything of monetary value, such as cash, property, services, meals, entertainment, or travel-related expenses.

178
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:36,000
 If a gift is accepted, the city official may remedy the violation by promptly donating it or reimbursing the gift giver the actual or fair market value of the gift.

179
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:43,000
 If a gift is accepted, the city official must disclose the acceptance and the remedy by filing a disclosure with the city office.

180
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:52,000
 The ordinance does allow certain exceptions to the gift's prohibition, meaning that these are considered green lights, which include lawful campaign contributions,

181
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:59,000
 expenses related to a city official's travel to a conference or other training event that is connected to the city,

182
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:05,000
 expenses related to appearances at nonprofit or community events related to city business,

183
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:13,000
 complimentary attendance at fundraising events or hospitality functions, complimentary or promotional copies of trade publications or clothing items,

184
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:21,000
 or gifts that are given due to a personal, familial, or professional relationship, regardless of the city official's city-related duties.

185
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:28,000
 Any items that fall under one of these exceptions do not need to be disclosed. However, a city official may choose to disclose them if they would like to.

186
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,000
 Questions about gifts?

187
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,000
 Great.

188
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:42,000
 Next, it is a violation of the ordinance for a city official to misuse the influence or information gained due to their city position.

189
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:50,000
 Specifically, a city official may not use their influence to secure special privileges or treatment for a person, group, or business organization

190
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:55,000
 beyond what is normally available or to imply that they can use those things.

191
00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:04,000
 While this is a specific prohibition, it is a yellow light as it is not meant to prohibit a city official from providing individuals, groups, or businesses with information on how city processes work

192
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,000
 so that they can more easily access normally available services.

193
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:14,000
 For that reason, city officials should proceed cautiously and thoughtfully when trying to help the public with specific concerns.

194
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:22,000
 Particularly, city officials should be cautious when stating what they can or cannot do to make sure that a concern is addressed.

195
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:30,000
 Further, a city official may not state or imply that they are acting as a representative of the city unless they have been authorized to do so by the city council.

196
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:42,000
 It is a violation of the ordinance for a city official, either current or former, to use confidential information gained through their official capacity to advance the personal or private financial interests of themselves or anyone else.

197
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:53,000
 A yellow light, as there are no instances where misrepresenting yourself as an authorized city representative or using confidential information for personal or private interests would be considered ethical by the ordinance.

198
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,000
 Good question.

199
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,000
 Yes.

200
00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:05,000
 So are those tied directly to the points? In other words, the yellow is the first point and the red is the second and the red is the third?

201
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:06,000
 Correct.

202
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,000
 Okay.

203
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,000
 Are there any questions on this section?

204
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:15,000
 I do have a question about acting as a representative.

205
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,000
 I think several of us got an email recently by a journalism student.

206
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,000
 Yes.

207
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:33,000
 And I feel like we ought to be able to talk to them, but I felt like from signals I've gotten in the past, the answer was probably no.

208
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:44,000
 I don't have a clear answer on that. I think if you are going to do something like that, you have to be very clear that you're talking just as a person, as a person.

209
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,000
 And I think that that can be difficult.

210
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,000
 With a college student.

211
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,000
 I'm just going to bring them to you.

212
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:59,000
 And we do have a chief communications officer, chief information, I don't know, I think it's communication officer now.

213
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,000
 So maybe refer to this. Sorry, what?

214
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,000
 Who is that?

215
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000
 His name is Dustin Steinbeck.

216
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,000
 Okay.

217
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,000
 He started like last month.

218
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,000
 Should we have received a copy of what he said to that person?

219
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:20,000
 I didn't get one, but I'll follow up with him and see if he sent any. I don't know that he sent something, I just know that I gave it to him to decide.

220
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,000
 I was just wondering, wouldn't it be nice if that was shared with us so we know what the response was?

221
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,000
 Yeah. I'll reach out and see if he did send anything and let you know.

222
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,000
 Thank you.

223
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,000
 Yeah, I just want to say, kind of have a problem with that.

224
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:39,000
 And I totally understand not saying that we're saying this as a member of the board.

225
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:49,000
 But I just, I feel like it kind of infringes on free speech, I guess.

226
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,000
 So I'm just going to say that, I'm not asking for any.

227
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,000
 I'm giving you the best advice I could use to protect yourself.

228
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,000
 I hear that.

229
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,000
 But that doesn't mean you cannot do it.

230
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,000
 My sense has been no discussion.

231
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:14,000
 But, you know, for maybe people on the city council or the city administrators, that's what they want.

232
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,000
 But that's not what residents want.

233
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:24,000
 And so I felt torn between those two points of view.

234
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,000
 Are we discussing this?

235
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,000
 This is a training.

236
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,000
 I think we want to discuss the merits.

237
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,000
 It's hard with you all as you can.

238
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,000
 Okay.

239
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,000
 Yeah.

240
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,000
 All right.

241
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:40,000
 Thank you for your best response.

242
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,000
 Okay.

243
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,000
 So last of the prohibitions.

244
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:52,000
 It is a violation of the ordinance for a city official to abuse their city's resources or their power or privileges granted by their official division.

245
00:25:52,000 --> 00:26:06,000
 Specifically, a city official should not use, request, or allow the use of city resources such as facilities, personnel, equipment, software, or staff time for private purposes, including political, except to the extent that those are available to other residents.

246
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:12,000
 While this is a specific prohibition, it's also a yellow light as it does not have clearly defined thresholds.

247
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:20,000
 And there are instances where a city official can ethically use city resources such as renting a city facility at the publicly available price.

248
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:32,000
 On the other hand, it is a violation of these ordinance for a city official to harass or discriminate against a person based on their ethnicity, race, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, marital or parental status, or religion.

249
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:42,000
 It is also a violation to interfere with any city-related criminal or administrative investigation, including persuading or coercing someone else to withhold their cooperation.

250
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:49,000
 These are red lights as there is no instance where harassment, discrimination, or interfering with an investigation would be considered ethical behavior for the ordinance.

251
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:55,000
 Questions about this piece here.

252
00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:05,000
 Now that you have an understanding of the expectations, mandates, and prohibitions outlined in the ordinance, if you ever come upon a situation where you need additional guidance, you have two options.

253
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:15,000
 First, if you need help kind of just finding a section of the ordinance related to a particular situation or an answer about how to submit a disclosure or a complaint, you can reach out to me.

254
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:29,000
 Second, if you have a personal attorney, they may be able to help provide you with an interpretation of the ethics ordinance, help you decide whether to refuse yourself in a given situation, but that does not include Scott or any of the city attorney's office staff.

255
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:41,000
 And then finally, you can also request that the Board of Ethics y'all issue an advisory opinion, which is intended to answer a question about compliance with the ethics ordinance in a particular situation.

256
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:50,000
 The biggest advantage of an advisory opinion is that a city official may know as an affirmative defense to a submitted ethics complaint if they relied upon it in good faith.

257
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:59,000
 To receive an advisory opinion, a city official must submit the request in writing to the city auditor, including relevant details of the situation in question.

258
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:05,000
 I will then communicate the request to the Board of Ethics chair who assigns it to a panel of three Board of Ethics members for review.

259
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:13,000
 The panel has 30 days to issue the advisory opinion once the request is received, but as you know, it often occurs much faster than that.

260
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:21,000
 So any questions about the advisory opinion process, I know you're all probably pretty familiar with it.

261
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,000
 Finally, the Board of Ethics' primary function is to process ethics complaints.

262
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,000
 There are four phases of the ethics complaint process that I'll now briefly run through.

263
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:37,000
 Additional information about the ethics complaint process is available on the city's Board of Ethics webpage or can be requested from me.

264
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:45,000
 First, the initiation phase. During this period, an individual submits an ethics complaint using the prescribed form to the city auditor.

265
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:55,000
 This complaint form should be accompanied by any evidence such as images, videos, or documentation that the complainant has to support their allegations and must be sworn to in front of a notary.

266
00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:03,000
 The city auditor then determines that the ethics complaint is administratively complete, but does not make any judgments on the complaint's merits.

267
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:12,000
 If the complaint is accepted, a copy is forwarded to the complainant, the respondent, and the Board of Ethics chair who assigns it to a preliminary assessment panel.

268
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:20,000
 During the preliminary assessment phase, a panel of three Board of Ethics members reviews the submitted ethics complaint and determines if it is actionable or baseless.

269
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:26,000
 The complaint is actionable if on its face the behavior alleged in the complaint would constitute a violation of the ordinance.

270
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:34,000
 The panel may also recommend that a hearing be held to determine if the complaint is frivolous instead of determining if it is actionable or baseless.

271
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,000
 The outcome of the preliminary assessment is communicated to the complainant and responded by the city auditor.

272
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:49,000
 If the complaint is determined to be baseless, the process stops, though the complainant may submit a written appeal within 10 business days which will initiate the hearing phase.

273
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:59,000
 During the hearing phase, the Board of Ethics schedules an evidentiary hearing and may request additional documentary evidence or issued subpoenas to require individuals to testify.

274
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:06,000
 The complainant must attend and testify at this hearing and may also present any additional evidence that they've gathered.

275
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:11,000
 In addition, the respondent may provide testimony and evidence for the Board's consideration.

276
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:20,000
 Both the complainant and respondent have a right to be represented by legal counsel at the evidentiary hearing or by another person.

277
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:28,000
 Based on this evidentiary hearing, the Board will determine if a violation of the ordinance has occurred and if so, the Board may issue a sanction.

278
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:38,000
 Once the Board has decided on the evidence complaint, the complainant and respondent both have five business days to submit any new evidence and request a reconsideration in writing with the city auditor.

279
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:48,000
 The Board of Ethics Chair will then review the reconsideration request and will unilaterally determine if the new hearing is warranted based on the new evidence.

280
00:30:48,000 --> 00:31:01,000
 So then, very quickly, if during the evidentiary hearing the Board of Ethics finds that a violation of the ordinance has occurred, they may issue one of four sanctions based on the city official's perceived intent and the seriousness of the violation.

281
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:13,000
 I've illustrated the decision process generally just on the slide and then if the Board decides to impose a sanction, the city official will be notified within ten days by the city auditor.

282
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:18,000
 We did it. Any questions about the ethics complaint process?

283
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:25,000
 I think that's a really good summary of the current code. I can tell you a lot of work into it.

284
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,000
 Any other comments or questions?

285
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,000
 This has been approved by the Council.

286
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,000
 The training?

287
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,000
 Yes.

288
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:39,000
 The ordinance actually gives me the authority to design and do the training myself. So they have seen it, but they didn't approve it.

289
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,000
 They didn't need to?

290
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,000
 Right.

291
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,000
 Thank you.

292
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:52,000
 Okay. So we're moving on to item E, BOE 23-045, Receive a Report, Hold a Discussion, and --

293
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,000
 I'm so sorry. I do need y'all to sign this so that I have evidence that you attended.

294
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,000
 Do I need to?

295
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:04,000
 Well, I have you already, but you did it again.

296
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,000
 Congrats.

297
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:13,000
 I'm really in trouble.

298
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:29,000
 Yeah, so Receive a Report, Hold a Discussion, and Take Necessary Action Regarding Code and Ordinance of Chapter 2, Article 11, Ethics, Section 2-269, Definitions, and Section 2-273, Prohibitions.

299
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:34,000
 And this is really the thing on pending matters.

300
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:39,000
 So you received a question.

301
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:52,000
 I did, so -- and that's included in the management report, but it is related. Is that fine, Scott?

302
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,000
 Pushing ahead to the next -- if it's relevant to the posting, that's fine.

303
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:10,000
 It is. I believe that it is. So we received a request -- let me just pull up the picture.

304
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:19,000
 Received this request from a staff member, but related from a city official, essentially.

305
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:32,000
 And the request was essentially, does this city official need to recuse from a work session or essentially what's just an informative item that they're not making any sort of decision on?

306
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:40,000
 And so I provided the definition of pending matter, and it doesn't include informative sessions in it, essentially.

307
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,000
 So I was basically like, yes, that seems correct, your interpretation.

308
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:50,000
 I want to be just cautious about this is not a request for an advisory opinion.

309
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,000
 That's true.

310
00:33:51,000 --> 00:34:07,000
 So let's maybe -- if we can somehow discuss how you all want definition of pending matter to change without opining on this specific question.

311
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:17,000
 Okay, yeah, I hear what you said.

312
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:30,000
 Well, this whole pending matter subject and definition assumes that we stay with the original conflict of interest chapter as it was presented seven years ago now.

313
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:44,000
 If there are any amendments where the conflict of interest is brought up to date, that entire pending matter may be subject to review possible amendment.

314
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:54,000
 So the entire subject of pending matter is -- historically does not really consider what may happen after that vote occurs.

315
00:34:54,000 --> 00:35:11,000
 So there are some citizens in this town that have called me more than once since this originally passed to remind me that pending matter is kind of a trouble spot in this code because it does not apply to anything that may happen after that vote.

316
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:40,000
 So there are some -- there's lots of things that need to be discussed under the current conflict of interest, and it's on your agenda to at least start that tonight or to think about it, because there are several citizens in this town who would not cry at all if this entire conflict of interest section, including the pending matter, would just disappear in favor of, and there's some very simple alternative language that I won't bother you with tonight.

317
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:47,000
 But this is something that I would like to have this board discuss.

318
00:35:47,000 --> 00:36:01,000
 It's probably not posted to discuss tonight under these items, but alternative language for conflicts of interest I would respectfully suggest be on a future agenda coming up as soon as possible.

319
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:15,000
 And I may -- oh, I'm sorry, or you two did. It went so quick. We finished 045, then, is that right? Are we at 048?

320
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,000
 No, we're at 045.

321
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,000
 We're on 045.

322
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,000
 Okay, good. I missed something. I got a little nervous. Thank you.

323
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,000
 Sorry, we moved ahead a little bit, just a shot.

324
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:32,000
 Well, I knew we had, but I didn't realize the pending nature was under this one. Thank you.

325
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,000
 Anybody else have comments on the pending matter definition?

326
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:48,000
 If I may, so are you indicating today that on the pending matter, it does have an expiration date on each issue, does it not, or are you saying that it doesn't?

327
00:36:48,000 --> 00:37:05,000
 It does currently, and our current code, as it's written, but the entire pending matter, I really don't want to get into this because it's a little bit confusing and we really need to spend some time on it, but our current code right now, after a vote --

328
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,000
 I recuse myself for something on a vote.

329
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,000
 Yeah, yeah.

330
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,000
 Okay, then take me from there.

331
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:30,000
 Just as an example, as an example, most other cities, the language is to replace all of this, 6%, 10%, all of this, no action affecting any economic or personal interest of replaces all of that, and that puts a lot of stuff into the future.

332
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:40,000
 In other words, you can vote on the pending matter today and don't get your buddy tomorrow and cook the deal that was not on the table tonight.

333
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:50,000
 And so that's the problem that a lot of folks have had with this code for the past seven years, is there is no preventative value, it's a buddy type system.

334
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:56,000
 And so this is another subject and I really don't want to start it tonight.

335
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,000
 It was helpful just to get your -- I'm trying to get the concept with you.

336
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,000
 That's fine, that's fine.

337
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:18,000
 I don't, obviously I want us to have a meeting that doesn't last several hours, but I do, I think, I tried to, I've heard this discussion before, so I tried to point it out in this table here, what you're discussing, they're usually in codes, is a general prohibition for conflict of interest.

338
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,000
 Right, I'm not asking you to defend or --

339
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:27,000
 Right, I'm just, from my research, there usually is a general, that is in the backup, and there's not one in our code.

340
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:46,000
 Right, right. So all I'm suggesting is that a conflict of interest revision or reform has been on my and several other people's agenda in this town since 2015, in May, when this thing passed.

341
00:38:46,000 --> 00:39:00,000
 The whole 6%, 10%, all of that is historical and has been set aside in other cities that use simpler language to say you've got anything to do, this is going to change the future in any way for you, the present or the future.

342
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,000
 See, this is a present tense problem or issue that we have in our current code right now.

343
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:13,000
 Like I say, two days after you vote on something, you can go out and do a deal, and you're not in violation of anything under our current code.

344
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:21,000
 And I had the same thing explained to me by a citizen, and I started looking at it.

345
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,000
 Pending matter is a legal term.

346
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:30,000
 In my opinion, there's too many legal things in this code that ordinary people wouldn't understand.

347
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:36,000
 But then if you look in the glossary, the glossary definition of it makes it even more narrow.

348
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:48,000
 And so pending matter in law, and please correct me if I prompt, could mean something that could come up later, but the way it is narrowed in our glossary is the problem.

349
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,000
 And so when you look at it, it doesn't look too terrible.

350
00:39:52,000 --> 00:40:00,000
 And then when you do a page flip and go back to the glossary, it is the single most troubling part of this stuff.

351
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,000
 It's a giant loophole.

352
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,000
 Yeah, you could drive a Peterbilt truck through it.

353
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,000
 That's how big the loophole is.

354
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:14,000
 So I think a lot of people get upset, and they want to file an ethics complaint.

355
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:23,000
 And when they finally calm down enough to read through this stuff, they realize there's no complaint.

356
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,000
 So that's my concern with pending matter.

357
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,000
 No other city in the state of Texas has this definition.

358
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,000
 Austin has matter in their definition.

359
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,000
 No other city even has matter.

360
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,000
 So it is a weird--

361
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:49,000
 See, in our code right here, I'm looking at definitions of our code, pending matter is an application or a permit only.

362
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:55,000
 It's a deal that could have already been done that is going to go through two days after the council meets.

363
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:02,000
 So this has been a huge problem for me and some other people in this town for several years.

364
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:08,000
 And this is one of the things that I would like for us to discuss at the appropriate time.

365
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,000
 I know it's not on the agenda tonight, so I'm not--

366
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,000
 I think it is.

367
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,000
 Okay, it is, yeah.

368
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:20,000
 I will just say it's a terrible definition and very confusing.

369
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:27,000
 It took somebody else to explain it to me and then I had to look it up and go, oh my God, it's bad.

370
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,000
 It's so narrow.

371
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,000
 You have to thread the needle to get an ethics code violation.

372
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,000
 So do either of you have the language that we'd like to replace it with?

373
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,000
 Funny you should ask.

374
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:55,000
 Yeah, I think I'd use model code, but basically a conflict of interest should simply be anything that benefits you personally and doesn't benefit other people.

375
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,000
 And that's the most simple definition.

376
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,000
 It's not about dollars and cents.

377
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,000
 It could be hurrying favors.

378
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,000
 It could be about money.

379
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,000
 It could be about sleeping with someone.

380
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:15,000
 So we need a broader definition and that's why we have a board is that ethics are not always that cut and dried.

381
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:21,000
 They're much more nuanced, I guess.

382
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:28,000
 But I will say you could vote for something if a person votes for something that benefits them.

383
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,000
 It's not a conflict of interest if it benefits everybody else in the state.

384
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:37,000
 So there are times when you're going to benefit for something that, you know, do something that benefits you.

385
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:44,000
 But we just need a broader sweep here and not trying to catch warn people.

386
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:54,000
 But I feel sorry when people are like, hey, I have a complaint and I have to say I wouldn't even try to make that one fly.

387
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,000
 That's no doubt.

388
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:08,000
 The majority of other Texas cities our size have used the model code as an example and most other cities it can be this simple.

389
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:21,000
 General rule to avoid the risk of impropriety, a city official or employee shall not take any official action that he or she knows is likely to affect the economic interests of the parent, the outside client.

390
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,000
 Then there's that list.

391
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:27,000
 That's current and future, which we don't cover the future now.

392
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,000
 Like I say, two days after that deal goes down.

393
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:37,000
 And please don't use the term consanguinity because that's not a term that most people understand.

394
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:42,000
 I think the better way, you know, parent, child, aunt, and both.

395
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,000
 I mean, go ahead and list all of them.

396
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,000
 We're not trying to complicate this.

397
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,000
 It's actually much simpler than what our code says.

398
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:56,000
 Weschler has a beautiful one in his model code, but most ethics ordinances have this very simply written.

399
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:03,000
 You know, you're not, yeah, it's the most awful definition in this day of Texas.

400
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:09,000
 Does anyone have an objection to changing it to the model code definition here?

401
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,000
 I do.

402
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,000
 Yeah, I'd like to hear more about that.

403
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:17,000
 You have industries in this town that would be affected greatly by that.

404
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:23,000
 Surveyors, title companies, real estate professionals, appraisers.

405
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:29,000
 Anything that would be related into that umbrella of land purchase or land use.

406
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,000
 Developers.

407
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:31,000
 Developers.

408
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,000
 You would be where the current one catches them at the moment.

409
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,000
 There might be an occasional council member that occasionally.

410
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:42,000
 No, I would have, I respectfully disagree with you there.

411
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,000
 Because we're not talking about just council members.

412
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,000
 This is officers. Who are officers?

413
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:52,000
 So it includes the Planning and Zoning Commission, Zoning Board of Adjustments,

414
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:57,000
 the Public Utilities Board, the City Council, the Historic Landmark Commission,

415
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:02,000
 and then the city manager, the city attorney, the municipal judge, and me.

416
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,000
 Public Utility Board.

417
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,000
 That's correct.

418
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,000
 And the Ethics Board.

419
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:06,000
 Ethics Board.

420
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,000
 And y'all, yes, sorry.

421
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,000
 So we're talking about a rather broad network.

422
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,000
 Anything that's outside judicial is.

423
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,000
 I don't know that for sure.

424
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,000
 I just know that's the Historic Landmark Commission.

425
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,000
 So I see this as effective catching now.

426
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:28,000
 Futuristic, I think you are putting a burden, an unnecessary burden,

427
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:35,000
 on many people that do not think of the way you have some individuals thinking.

428
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,000
 They're always bad apples somewhere.

429
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:43,000
 But that's why I would be against such a restrictive. Your broadness, it's hidden interesting.

430
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,000
 The broadness is more restrictive than the restrictiveness is,

431
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,000
 what we're talking about on the definition.

432
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,000
 I would disagree with you there.

433
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:59,000
 This is what is applied to probably 80 to 90 percent of Texas municipalities right now.

434
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,000
 It's a very simple wording.

435
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:11,000
 You're going to go down a road that neither one of us can predict right now on this 5%, $600 stuff,

436
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,000
 not knowing what's going to happen after that vote.

437
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,000
 Then realizing that this is in the future.

438
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:19,000
 This works.

439
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,000
 This is not an experiment.

440
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,000
 This works right now in Texas.

441
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:28,000
 I just wanted to offer, and from the research, often codes do have both.

442
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:34,000
 They'll have a general prohibition and they'll have some specifics specifically about on votes and things like that.

443
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:43,000
 That's a possibility as well.

444
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:49,000
 I've read a bunch of codes in the state because I'm a nerd, I guess.

445
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:54,000
 But the one that struck me the hardest was the city of San Marcos.

446
00:46:54,000 --> 00:47:04,000
 They literally say, I think they say, they name some group, don't even think about running for city council.

447
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,000
 That's what they said in their ethics code.

448
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:12,000
 I read it and I was like, whoa, that's harsh.

449
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:20,000
 But I will say that Jitin has a long history of this kind of thing.

450
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:28,000
 It goes all the way back to 1890 when a real estate syndicate started what became UNT.

451
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,000
 What they did was they bought 300 acres.

452
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,000
 They forced the city to annex it.

453
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:39,000
 The city went from 200 acres to 500 because of these 300 acres.

454
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:45,000
 They gave 10 acres right in the middle to the normal college.

455
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:52,000
 Then they developed the rest as lots and left all the way to the bank.

456
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:56,000
 That kind of thing has happened throughout our history.

457
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:01,000
 I will also say I think that's fairly common in small cities.

458
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:06,000
 This is not a small city anymore.

459
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,000
 Well, Madam Chair, we've had that discussion for the existence of this board.

460
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:19,000
 Other chairmen have told you that that is not something we would be discussing because it is the history.

461
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,000
 We are looking at something that would be today and futuristic.

462
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,000
 But for bringing up issues such as that, we didn't think it was germane then.

463
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,000
 I don't think it's germane now.

464
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,000
 Because there was no ethics, was there then?

465
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,000
 No, there wasn't.

466
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:38,000
 I think that's part of how a group grows is that they have to shift into things.

467
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:44,000
 Well, I would like to make it note that it's more than just real estate people that have problems and did things bad to the city.

468
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,000
 True.

469
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,000
 So let's not throw a disparaging word on too many.

470
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,000
 I'd rather it be more generic than what you have just said.

471
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,000
 Okay.

472
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,000
 So how do we bring this to conclusion?

473
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,000
 This is an interesting discussion, but it's just a discussion.

474
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,000
 I think it needs to change.

475
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,000
 I think it needs to be at least a little more broad.

476
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,000
 Maybe the glossary definition needs to be...

477
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,000
 I mean, I'll take whatever direction there is for it.

478
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:18,000
 I think a motion would be clearer, but I don't know what the motion would be.

479
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:22,000
 I think there's many options for how you could potentially change the code.

480
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,000
 There's also the not changing the code option.

481
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,000
 I hear two possible motions.

482
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,000
 So could we get a straw poll of how people are feeling about it?

483
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,000
 I don't think we can do a straw poll.

484
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:40,000
 Y'all could give direction on Madison bringing back some options potentially of language.

485
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,000
 I think that'd be very helpful at this point.

486
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,000
 Would that be all right with you, David?

487
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:45,000
 That would be fine.

488
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:54,000
 And one thing that I might also add, we've used Wexler's examples from the very start.

489
00:49:54,000 --> 00:50:00,000
 Wexler discusses this issue of dollars and percentages versus the general principles

490
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,000
 that are in most current codes.

491
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,000
 It's maybe 50 or 60 pages.

492
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:12,000
 It's a lot of reading, and he explains exactly what Rob and I are discussing right now,

493
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,000
 the pros and cons.

494
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:20,000
 And it's not an accident that most other Texas cities have gone for this simpler language

495
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:25,000
 that says you don't do it now and you don't do it in the future.

496
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,000
 And so I understand that.

497
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:33,000
 And that is my understanding of what pending matter actually means,

498
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,000
 but it's the glossary that really kicks it.

499
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,000
 But I still don't like pending matter.

500
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,000
 I think it's confusing.

501
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,000
 Yes, Andrea?

502
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:49,000
 So we've had issues with really drilling down.

503
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,000
 When we had the whole discussion about actual dollar amounts,

504
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:57,000
 we had really a difficult time drilling down on what would be reasonable.

505
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:03,000
 And that is one of the reasons why I would be entertaining something that is simpler,

506
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:10,000
 because also a $500 amount is not equal to all people.

507
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:16,000
 To some people $500 is a ton of money, and to others it's a drop in the bucket.

508
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:21,000
 And that has always been my issue with exact dollar amounts.

509
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:28,000
 But what I would like, because I wouldn't be ready to drill one way or the other today anyway,

510
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:33,000
 I really think that we need more concrete examples of what --

511
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:41,000
 and really a cohesive discussion about what does this mean if we have exact dollar amounts

512
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:47,000
 and what does it mean if we're going to a broader definition of what conflict of interest is.

513
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:51,000
 So that would be my wish.

514
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:57,000
 And if we took the dollar amounts out, wouldn't it be then if somebody did bring up an ethics complaint,

515
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:02,000
 that's the whole point of the board to determine, without any dollar amounts,

516
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:10,000
 just like did this person that's under the purview of these guidelines,

517
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,000
 did they do something that looks unethical?

518
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:17,000
 And that's the whole point of the board to decide that is unethical or is not unethical,

519
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,000
 whether or not you have dollar amounts.

520
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:30,000
 Yeah, I mean it could be a lot of broader things.

521
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:36,000
 So I think there's direction for me to bring back some potential options based on this discussion.

522
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:37,000
 Yes.

523
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,000
 So do we need to vote on that?

524
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,000
 No, I don't think so.

525
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:41,000
 Okay.

526
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,000
 Can I be a little bit more specific even for you?

527
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:49,000
 I would love that.

528
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:55,000
 I would really like to see if we're going to a broader definition of conflict of interest,

529
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:59,000
 what are we eliminating out of the current code?

530
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:05,000
 What language written sections are we actually more or less replacing?

531
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,000
 Right?

532
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,000
 That is what I want to see.

533
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:19,000
 That's good.

534
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,000
 I would argue numbers are good.

535
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:30,000
 If it doesn't say 30 miles an hour, but it says drive at a reasonable rate of speed,

536
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,000
 guess what's going to happen?

537
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:33,000
 Yeah.

538
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:34,000
 It would be crazy.

539
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:38,000
 I would argue there is some value in having some specific dollar amount.

540
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:44,000
 Maybe they need to change over time, but maybe you think they need to be larger or smaller,

541
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,000
 but having a number is useful.

542
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:51,000
 The other part about the number is it's going to get outdated in a couple of years.

543
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,000
 Well, so it is.

544
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:59,000
 I deal with behavior, and I'm telling you when we're talking behavior in students,

545
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,000
 it's not always about numbers.

546
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,000
 There's a lot of qualitative stuff that needs going to.

547
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:17,000
 My concern has always been $500 today is not going to be the same as $500 in 10 years.

548
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:24,000
 I think that we should at least give it an opportunity to have a much more concrete discussion.

549
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:34,000
 There's a lot more information that we can actually decide on rather than just a quick conversation today.

550
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:39,000
 I completely agree with that.

551
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:45,000
 This came up when the council first worked through this.

552
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:50,000
 It was a Saturday morning, January 27, 2015,

553
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:55,000
 and they spent no more than 45 minutes making this decision rather than flipping the page

554
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,000
 and looking at other alternatives across Texas.

555
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,000
 There was not a lot of thought put into this.

556
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:07,000
 And they had been told to use citizens, and they chose not to.

557
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:19,000
 I would hope that we could come up with something that would prohibit the appearance of evil

558
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,000
 as far as some of the businesses we're talking about,

559
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,000
 but I would also think that if you're voting for something,

560
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:33,000
 and let's say I'm a developer and I'm on city council,

561
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:40,000
 I'm voting for something that the majority of my constituents are telling me is a good thing,

562
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:51,000
 and I don't think that has to be a bad thing.

563
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:55,000
 I'm sorry, I'd have to disagree because now you're bringing it back into the council,

564
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,000
 and this is a much broader net.

565
00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:59,000
 I understand.

566
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,000
 I'm just trying to give an example.

567
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,000
 Well, I think your example is a bit narrow.

568
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,000
 Okay.

569
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,000
 Noted.

570
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,000
 All right.

571
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:13,000
 Any other comments or questions?

572
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:14,000
 Okay.

573
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,000
 Shall we move on?

574
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:21,000
 Please.

575
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:29,000
 So we are on BOE 23-048, that's number F, management reports.

576
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:34,000
 So the October 20-23 advisory opinion responses report,

577
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:39,000
 and two, the Board of Ethics alternatives upcoming city council discussion.

578
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,000
 So we'll start with one, the advisory responses report.

579
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,000
 This is really just kind of a heads up that this was asked.

580
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:52,000
 I think as Scott mentioned earlier, this is not for you to give an opinion on.

581
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,000
 This is just so you know this happened,

582
00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:01,000
 and this was my response based on guidance that was outlined in the procedures manual.

583
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:02,000
 Okay.

584
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:09,000
 So then we're on to the alternatives upcoming city council discussion.

585
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,000
 Yes, so this happened very quickly.

586
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:17,000
 The council is having a discussion tomorrow in general about boards

587
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,000
 and commissions composition.

588
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:22,000
 We had had some discussion about alternate members historically,

589
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:28,000
 so I provided them some information about how alternate members have been used

590
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,000
 as far as meeting the quorum requirements in general.

591
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,000
 We haven't had to have alternates to meet quorum requirements,

592
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,000
 though they fill out the board often.

593
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:43,000
 But a lot of that is due to vacancies.

594
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,000
 So that's just some information there.

595
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,000
 I don't know if you would like to provide additional --

596
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,000
 I'm going to be there tomorrow for the discussion.

597
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,000
 In case they have questions, I don't really know what will happen,

598
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,000
 but that's for you to know.

599
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,000
 I guess you could ask questions or provide direction if you would like to.

600
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,000
 If you don't know about direction, maybe.

601
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,000
 It's an IC item, so.

602
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:05,000
 David.

603
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,000
 Well, I'd like to clear up one.

604
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,000
 I have kind of a list of items here that were not on the agenda.

605
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,000
 So this is kind of one of my extra questions.

606
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,000
 It kind of gets back to the last meeting.

607
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:24,000
 When -- by a 4-0-1 vote, this is when that burden of proof was set aside,

608
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,000
 which I agree with completely.

609
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:32,000
 Rob voted yes.

610
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,000
 It was 4-1, and I think you abstained.

611
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,000
 Yeah, because I --

612
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:38,000
 Well, which is fine.

613
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:39,000
 It wasn't fair.

614
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:40,000
 I had no problem.

615
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:44,000
 But my question is, when the attendance was that short,

616
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,000
 what would have happened if that was a 3-1-1 vote?

617
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,000
 Would that have gone down?

618
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:50,000
 Yes.

619
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:51,000
 Yes.

620
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,000
 That would have been the majority of the meeting, right?

621
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:54,000
 Yeah.

622
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,000
 But that would have been a simple majority of the attendance,

623
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,000
 which would have mean it was an affirmative motion.

624
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:05,000
 Right.

625
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:11,000
 So burden of proof is moving forward based on that fourth vote,

626
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,000
 two of which -- there were two regulars and two alternates.

627
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:15,000
 You were --

628
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:16,000
 I was an alternate.

629
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:17,000
 So two alternates.

630
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,000
 So burden of proof is still alive and kicking.

631
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:21,000
 Is that right?

632
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:22,000
 I guess.

633
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:23,000
 No.

634
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:24,000
 I think we voted to --

635
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:25,000
 We voted to --

636
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,000
 I mean, nothing has happened because the City Council has to approve it.

637
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:29,000
 Right, right.

638
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,000
 So the Board has given direction to have that as a proposal

639
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,000
 that will move forward to the City Council.

640
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,000
 But it would not even go to the Council had there been a 3-1-1.

641
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,000
 No, it would.

642
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:43,000
 It would, because that was a positive vote, 3-1-1 is a positive vote.

643
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:44,000
 Right?

644
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:45,000
 Yes.

645
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:48,000
 So we had quorum.

646
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:49,000
 Right.

647
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:53,000
 We had quorum, so 3-1-1 would be a majority yes vote.

648
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:54,000
 Okay.

649
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:55,000
 I want to clear that up.

650
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,000
 So it didn't take a fourth vote.

651
00:59:58,000 --> 00:59:59,000
 Correct.

652
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,000
 Because when you read -- well, okay, I don't want to confuse that anymore.

653
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:03,000
 Okay.

654
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:04,000
 Good.

655
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:11,000
 Well, if I may, I think that's an example of how the alternates work.

656
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:12,000
 I think you agree with that.

657
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:16,000
 And many times, especially in the earlier years, when we were alternates --

658
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:17,000
 Right.

659
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:25,000
 We sat in the back row in the sense of absorbing us from what was being said,

660
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:31,000
 with no input or vote, but I accepted that position when they asked me to be an alternate.

661
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:32,000
 Right.

662
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:35,000
 Not realizing that many times the alternates are almost more --

663
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:36,000
 Well, actually --

664
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,000
 I have a better record of attendance and --

665
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:45,000
 Actually, I want to say it changed until January of 2020,

666
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:48,000
 because you got on I think in September or October.

667
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:49,000
 I got on before COVID.

668
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:50,000
 Yeah.

669
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:51,000
 You got on pre-COVID.

670
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,000
 I'm a pre-COVID.

671
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:57,000
 But following January, suddenly alternates were persona non grata.

672
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:03,000
 It was a palpable change, and Laura was looking over her shoulder to make sure --

673
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:06,000
 I don't know what changed, but it changed.

674
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:10,000
 But prior to that, alternates were allowed to vote.

675
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,000
 They were allowed to discuss, and something changed.

676
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:15,000
 I can't tell you what.

677
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:22,000
 When I came on, it was not acceptable for me to ask questions.

678
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:26,000
 Those first couple meetings, though, because you got on at the same time I did.

679
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,000
 I knew that I had to write notes and give them to --

680
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:30,000
 Yeah.

681
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,000
 The gentleman's passed away now.

682
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:36,000
 I'm the attorney --

683
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:37,000
 But anyway --

684
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:41,000
 Anyway, I had to write notes because I wasn't permitted to talk.

685
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:48,000
 The only reason I asked that is because on city council, a 3-3 vote goes nowhere until they get one more try.

686
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:56,000
 So I'm kind of feeling like a 3-1-1, we would have had to bring it back up to another meeting,

687
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,000
 or I don't see how that moves on.

688
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:02,000
 It depends on how many people are at the meeting, not the number exact.

689
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:06,000
 So because a 3-3 vote, there's six people, so you don't have a majority.

690
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,000
 A 3-1-1 vote, there's five people, so you do.

691
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:15,000
 Well, Robert's rules says even if there are two absences, it would still take a fourth to make a call.

692
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:16,000
 Yes.

693
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:17,000
 I'm fine.

694
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,000
 Okay.

695
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,000
 So I like what you said about alternates.

696
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:27,000
 I would really like to just have everybody be the same.

697
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:34,000
 I will make a comment, too, that I've been on hearing boards where there was an alternate who felt kind of lost

698
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:41,000
 because we were working on procedures that they weren't sort of involved in the discussion about,

699
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,000
 and I felt really badly for them.

700
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:53,000
 So I really would like alternates to have rights.

701
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:56,000
 So I liked what you said.

702
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:04,000
 I mean, there's only -- I do have a question. Is there a seat that is just not --

703
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:06,000
 Currently, there's a vacant seat on the board.

704
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:07,000
 Okay.

705
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:09,000
 Hannah, our classmate, has a vacant seat.

706
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:10,000
 Okay.

707
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:16,000
 And prior to that, there was a vacancy before kind of the new switch that I think Patricia built.

708
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,000
 Okay.

709
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:19,000
 Yeah, I --

710
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,000
 We've had a vacancy for a while.

711
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,000
 Yeah.

712
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,000
 Are we all full to verification purposes?

713
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:31,000
 Are we all today -- are we all full members today?

714
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:32,000
 No.

715
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,000
 No, I'm an alternate.

716
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,000
 So, Rob, how do you feel about this?

717
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,000
 I'm fine with it.

718
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:44,000
 I mean, I understand because of other boards that I'm on, I understand the position of an alternate,

719
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:51,000
 and if I take that position, I need to be as well-educated as you because I may be called in as part of the --

720
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:55,000
 sports analogy, kick or get hurt. Rainer, you're next.

721
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:56,000
 So --

722
01:03:56,000 --> 01:04:04,000
 So, I'm ready. And I understand that. So, fortunately, I have been not only on -- as a voting member here,

723
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:10,000
 but also on hearing panels of three. I think you were with me on our very first one, Dave,

724
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:17,000
 with a citizen that asked a question. We met over -- but anyway, I have no problem with it because I take the position

725
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:22,000
 as if I was appointed as a first chair.

726
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:31,000
 How would you feel about -- if you were not an alternate, you would be required to attend meetings. Would that be --

727
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:35,000
 I take that responsibility. I have no -- it's a wash for me.

728
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:39,000
 You don't feel like you have a dog in the hunt, in other words?

729
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:46,000
 Well, I have a dog in the hunt in that I am part of the committee, even though I may not have a tag, but I'm part of the pack.

730
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,000
 And so, I'm here for that purpose.

731
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:52,000
 Okay. So, either way --

732
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,000
 So, being the lone alternate, I don't have a problem with it.

733
01:04:55,000 --> 01:05:01,000
 So, are you filling the position -- the vacant position in right now because you are as an alternate?

734
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:05,000
 Yes. So, because there's a vacancy currently, we call an alternate every meeting.

735
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:06,000
 Okay.

736
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:07,000
 Yes. And then --

737
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:08,000
 Okay. Just to mention --

738
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:09,000
 She's definitely going to be here as well. She's traveling, so --

739
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:10,000
 Right, right, right. Okay.

740
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:13,000
 Well, we might have called her to fill us in because he was absent, but --

741
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:15,000
 Yeah, we are the only two.

742
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:18,000
 And, yeah, there's a vacant alternate position right now as well.

743
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:19,000
 Okay.

744
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:20,000
 Okay.

745
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:33,000
 So, when you are called in to be part of the meeting as an -- you know, to occupy the seat of a regular member, then you have voting rights.

746
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:34,000
 I do.

747
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:40,000
 It is -- so, I'm not exactly sure what we're actually discussing is because --

748
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:42,000
 As an alternate, I realize I don't have voting rights.

749
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:43,000
 Right.

750
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:44,000
 But I'm acting as an alternate.

751
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:45,000
 Right.

752
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,000
 Other than that, I -- my vote's just --

753
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:48,000
 Right. Exactly.

754
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:49,000
 Yes.

755
01:05:49,000 --> 01:06:01,000
 So, I'm not exactly sure what are we -- what the concern is that if we have -- like, then -- why not -- I mean, I don't see why -- if we're calling them alternates, they're obviously not full members.

756
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:05,000
 They're alternates to fuller position when there's -- when there's somebody missing.

757
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:06,000
 When they come and sit there, they vote.

758
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:15,000
 But if we're -- if we're giving an alternate that is attending a meeting and a vote, then we're expanding the board.

759
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,000
 I believe that, too.

760
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:21,000
 So, I don't -- I mean, if -- then we might as well just expand the board and not have alternates.

761
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,000
 I -- to me, it makes no sense to --

762
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:24,000
 That would be up to the council then.

763
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:25,000
 Right.

764
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:26,000
 Pardon me for interrupting, but I --

765
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:27,000
 Yeah, but --

766
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:35,000
 I think part of the discussion here is I would -- if you have thoughts on would you prefer the board be expanded, would you prefer to remain the way it is, or would you prefer the board be --

767
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:39,000
 the board be shrunk to some degree and not have alternate positions anymore.

768
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:44,000
 If you have direction or thoughts as a board on that, that would be helpful for the council to know.

769
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:45,000
 Yeah.

770
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:56,000
 At this point, I don't really know if that's clear to me either, but it's just a -- that's kind of why I'm bringing it up.

771
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:58,000
 I don't see the point for having alternates.

772
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,000
 I just think it's confusing.

773
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:12,000
 I think quorum should be 50% plus one of whatever number attend, and if we can't get that number, then it's not a meeting.

774
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:21,000
 But I would prefer to have everybody here for the same discussions.

775
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:22,000
 That's my preference.

776
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:31,000
 I don't know what -- But I don't necessarily see that -- like how many members do we have on this board at the moment?

777
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:34,000
 Currently there are eight -- there are ten positions.

778
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:35,000
 Ten positions?

779
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:38,000
 Yeah, three of them are alternates.

780
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,000
 So seven regular members, three alternates.

781
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:41,000
 Correct.

782
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:45,000
 If I'm not mistaken, each council member was given --

783
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:48,000
 Each council member has to nominate one council member.

784
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:51,000
 I don't know if they roll the dice to see who the other three come from.

785
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:57,000
 I think that it's just whoever nominates somebody first, it comes up for the alternate.

786
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:01,000
 So the original seven is represented by the council members.

787
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:04,000
 The alternates then are the alternates.

788
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,000
 Whoever picks somebody.

789
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:07,000
 Right.

790
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:10,000
 And they don't even have to pick them from their district.

791
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:12,000
 I don't know for sure.

792
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:20,000
 I'm not -- I'm appointed by some -- I'm not living in the district by the councilman.

793
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:25,000
 I've only really heard one person give me an opinion that was clear, which is fine.

794
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:31,000
 I can just say the board discussed it and it doesn't have any opinion in general as a body.

795
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:34,000
 So what is the quorum that's needed for voting?

796
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:35,000
 Four.

797
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:36,000
 Four.

798
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,000
 We have to have four people who can attend.

799
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:47,000
 We haven't had issues with quorum, even excluding the alternates that were asked to attend to fill vacant positions for two years, basically.

800
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:52,000
 But I do know another historic landmark commission has had issues with quorum.

801
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,000
 Right.

802
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:57,000
 A lot of boards and commissions are having issues with quorum, which I think is why they're having this discussion at all.

803
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,000
 They're not just discussing the Board of Ethics.

804
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:05,000
 Four regular or alternates, just like last time we were talking about.

805
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:08,000
 Well, even last meeting we had -- I think we had enough.

806
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,000
 I don't remember.

807
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:16,000
 I think there's only two board -- city boards right now that are full.

808
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:20,000
 I mean, that's how sad it is trying to get volunteers.

809
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:27,000
 Council members are just -- they're -- I mean, they can't get people to come in.

810
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,000
 I think it's deeper than that.

811
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:33,000
 I think that people are not filling role.

812
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:35,000
 I don't want us to get too off topic.

813
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,000
 Yeah.

814
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:43,000
 So I don't have a problem with having alternates, but it doesn't seem like it's needed for this particular board.

815
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:46,000
 But maybe other boards might need alternates.

816
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:48,000
 Is that the case?

817
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,000
 Well, actually, I would disagree.

818
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:56,000
 I'm sorry to say this, but I mean, Robert has been here, like, on a regular basis as an alternate.

819
01:09:56,000 --> 01:10:00,000
 So I really do think that there is a need for an alternate.

820
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:03,000
 But if he weren't here, we'd have a quorum, so.

821
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:04,000
 Today we did.

822
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:08,000
 Last week -- last month we would not have had a quorum.

823
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:11,000
 Oh, I thought Madison said we didn't have any.

824
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:14,000
 I think we were close last month.

825
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:15,000
 We wouldn't have last month.

826
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:16,000
 That's what I said.

827
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:22,000
 And that was one of the big reasons -- that was one of the big reasons why we delayed certain things because --

828
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:23,000
 Well, we didn't do the voting for the --

829
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:27,000
 Right, because the alternates didn't feel -- the alternates that had not been as involved as --

830
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:31,000
 The two of the alternates felt like it wasn't fair to pick someone.

831
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:32,000
 Yes.

832
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:35,000
 We felt it was necessary for the appointed members to get their say.

833
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:41,000
 What if we have alternates who may come if they want to, if they're not?

834
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:42,000
 Because right now --

835
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:43,000
 It's a public meeting.

836
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:44,000
 Alternates can come if they want to.

837
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:45,000
 Okay.

838
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,000
 I get an e-mail --

839
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:51,000
 I would like them to have voice and vote.

840
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:55,000
 And the alternate thing comes in when we're doing panels.

841
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:59,000
 If we don't have enough people, we give them a panel.

842
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:05,000
 Well, then it looks like we do need alternates if we don't always meet quorum, so that if we need them, then we should just keep --

843
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:09,000
 We do typically meet quorum without the alternates involved.

844
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:14,000
 Last meeting -- that's true that last meeting that wasn't true.

845
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:19,000
 I think that you were here -- we had three -- yeah, we had three, but then you were here too.

846
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:21,000
 I don't remember.

847
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:26,000
 Maybe we should leave it --

848
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:32,000
 Okay. I'm not really clear on the direction, if there is any --

849
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:41,000
 Is the typical makeup of a board the same, where there's seven regular members and three alternates?

850
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,000
 No.

851
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:45,000
 There's not typically alternate members.

852
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:55,000
 What if we allowed alternates to attend if they're not invited, if they choose, and they have voice but no vote?

853
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:57,000
 Alternates can attend right now.

854
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:05,000
 The ordinance says that they can only participate if they've been invited to fill the needs.

855
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:14,000
 Madam Chair, I'd be concerned -- I think I would like to get an opinion from the council, or legal, as to how this document was created.

856
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:22,000
 I mean, how we were created as far as our positions for voting versus alternate, so that we don't catch the council off guard,

857
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:26,000
 because they're thinking, I appointed you, I appointed -- so they're all appointed.

858
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:35,000
 And we, whatever -- and I think it was a great idea to have alternates, because the public utility board doesn't have alternates, do we?

859
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:36,000
 No.

860
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:39,000
 And there are times that they just don't meet.

861
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:41,000
 I mean, that's public utility board.

862
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:42,000
 They just don't meet.

863
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:43,000
 Think about that.

864
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,000
 We're talking about millions of dollars that we're dealing with.

865
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:49,000
 Well, we'll do that next month.

866
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:53,000
 But that's the beast that was created.

867
01:12:53,000 --> 01:13:00,000
 But I'd like to get an opinion from the city council, how we can then swim in that water, as it were.

868
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:05,000
 There is a decision to be made there, because I was an alternate.

869
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:12,000
 And I have been to more than one of these meetings sitting right there, not able to speak or vote.

870
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:19,000
 Only because my TV didn't pick this up at home all the way.

871
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:23,000
 But I sat right there, making it more possible.

872
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:25,000
 Andrea?

873
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:29,000
 I'm going back to the fact that if we have seven members, we have seven members.

874
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:35,000
 And if we -- you know, to me, an alternate -- there's a difference between a full member and an alternate.

875
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:42,000
 And right there -- so, yes, can I understand the frustration of not being able to speak?

876
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:48,000
 But, you know, there's a bunch of -- there's all of our citizens that are not able to speak at this board either.

877
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:56,000
 So I -- I mean, either no alternates or alternates stay as the definition as we have them.

878
01:13:56,000 --> 01:14:06,000
 But changing their ability to speak and their ability to vote, I think then we're really getting into an area where --

879
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:11,000
 so what's the difference between a regular member and an alternate, if they have all the rights?

880
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:17,000
 And not that I want to eliminate rights, but then we'd have to discuss expanding the board to ten members.

881
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,000
 We'd have to get the council to agree to that.

882
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:20,000
 Exactly.

883
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,000
 And they're going to want to think a thought into it.

884
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:27,000
 We wouldn't want an even number anyway, because there would be -- that would be difficult for them.

885
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:28,000
 Yes.

886
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:39,000
 But, yeah, I just -- I think that when we're delivering these issues, I want to have as many opinions as possible, even if we don't agree.

887
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:54,000
 So -- yes, and I don't disagree with your voices, but if -- then we should have the conversation about expanding the board

888
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:59,000
 and not having -- and not changing the role or the rights of an alternate.

889
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:02,000
 I guess you can tell them that we were mixed, if you want.

890
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:03,000
 Okay.

891
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:04,000
 Yeah.

892
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,000
 I think that's inaccurate.

893
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:11,000
 I know they should have been sitting over here watching us, but couldn't talk.

894
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:15,000
 I'm not going to do that.

895
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,000
 I can see that.

896
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:19,000
 Okay, so are we finished?

897
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:21,000
 Are we finished with item F?

898
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:24,000
 Please.

899
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:38,000
 Okay, move on to item G, BOE 23-049, receive a report for the discussion and give staff direction regarding future meeting topics.

900
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:50,000
 So currently, we don't have anything that we have prioritized for next meeting or the meeting after that, which is typically how we like to at least think out.

901
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:57,000
 So this is the list of things we've discussed talking about.

902
01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:00,000
 Some of them -- we've previously talked about their previous proposals.

903
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:06,000
 I wanted to just mention Patricia emailed me separately and said she wanted to talk about campaign contributions

904
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:13,000
 and then also brought up the potential campaign financing restrictions, which is something that's not currently in the code at all.

905
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:26,000
 And then also we talked about pending matter today, or you gave direction today for me to bring back something, so that could either -- we need to prioritize that as well.

906
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:28,000
 I would like to have that.

907
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:31,000
 Yeah, some of this stuff has come up a long time ago.

908
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:32,000
 Yes.

909
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:33,000
 Some of it's more fresh.

910
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:37,000
 I would definitely like to personally like to have pending matter.

911
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:41,000
 I'd like to work on that one at the next meeting.

912
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:49,000
 I would like to know if, Madam Chair, besides that one, is there another one there that might be a 20-minute -- you know what I mean?

913
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:50,000
 Yeah.

914
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:54,000
 And then we can maybe take a couple or five so we can start with everything down.

915
01:16:54,000 --> 01:17:03,000
 And I may yield to you, Madison, as to what you think time-wise on some of these would be.

916
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:06,000
 What is the debtor-creditor relationship?

917
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:16,000
 That was a proposal that we sent to the State Council last time in '23.

918
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:26,000
 And it was to include in the conflict of interest definition of the list of $800, $600, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is, the debtor-creditor relationship.

919
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:28,000
 Okay.

920
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:38,000
 So these are estimates, I would say some of them could be broken into parts, some of them probably will be several parts potentially.

921
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:40,000
 That doesn't represent 30 seconds.

922
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:43,000
 No, it doesn't.

923
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:44,000
 Dave?

924
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:48,000
 I have one closing item that's very simple.

925
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,000
 But, Madison, I would ask you a question.

926
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:58,000
 On this conflict of interest versus what we were discussing, without bringing Alan Boracuis back up here out of Austin,

927
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:12,000
 would you feel comfortable working up a presentation to help us wrestle with this conflict of interest versus simplifying this to match other cities?

928
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,000
 I believe that's what I was given direction to do.

929
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:17,000
 I just need to know if you want it next meeting or not.

930
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:18,000
 Okay.

931
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,000
 I mean, I've done a lot of research.

932
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:24,000
 I don't have an opinion, but I can certainly give you some options.

933
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:26,000
 That's good.

934
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:32,000
 But would the next meeting, would that be too tight of a schedule for you or would it be better to move it to January?

935
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:34,000
 That's, I mean, I think.

936
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:36,000
 This is part of my job.

937
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:37,000
 Okay.

938
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:46,000
 So is that, if I may ask, is that in addition to penny matter or is that a separate issue that you just brought up versus penny?

939
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:51,000
 That is the, I was interpreting that as the discussion, the longer discussion that I was getting.

940
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:52,000
 Okay, so that is the penny matter.

941
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:53,000
 Yeah.

942
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:56,000
 Because I would maybe want to just do that.

943
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:58,000
 I think that's going to be quite.

944
01:18:58,000 --> 01:18:59,000
 I think that's awesome.

945
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:02,000
 Well, what if we revisit this?

946
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:11,000
 I know I had mentioned too the possibility of looking at the city code of ethics, the one that they have for city staff members,

947
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:18,000
 and considering that, you know, switching out this code for that one.

948
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:24,000
 You're talking about an entire rewrite of the code for the prohibition section?

949
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:27,000
 What the city has is actually a pretty decent code.

950
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:30,000
 It's not the best I've read, but it's decent.

951
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:34,000
 And this one has big holes in it that we need to fix.

952
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:43,000
 And after going to the city council meeting, when they pretty much shot down everything we had spent two years talking about,

953
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:46,000
 I'm not really excited about piecemealing this thing.

954
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:49,000
 I think it's going to take us a long time.

955
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:59,000
 I would like to consider that we take the city code, which will, of course, be administered by the city staff.

956
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:04,000
 But we put our policies onto -- our procedures onto it.

957
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:08,000
 That's an option that I think would fit some uses.

958
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:12,000
 So I'd love to look at that code and see what we think about that.

959
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:13,000
 All right.

960
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:16,000
 So just so I'm clear, are you talking -- because it --

961
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:17,000
 We're talking about --

962
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:18,000
 No, I know which one you're talking about.

963
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:23,000
 I just mean, are you talking specifically about, like, the prohibitions section of -- because it has --

964
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:27,000
 No, just the procedures.

965
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:34,000
 Because the city's ethics policy doesn't have a process for processing ethics.

966
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:35,000
 Right.

967
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:42,000
 So you're talking about taking the procedures that are in our code and basically putting them around --

968
01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:44,000
 Attaching them to that.

969
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:53,000
 But the advantage would be that city employees and city officials would be on the same playing field, if you will,

970
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:58,000
 and that we wouldn't have two different codes of ethics.

971
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:04,000
 So I can include that as part of the large discussion as an option, potentially?

972
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:05,000
 Yeah.

973
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:08,000
 It will replace a lot more than just the conflict of interest piece.

974
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:09,000
 Yeah.

975
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:17,000
 If -- well, there is just a conflict of interest section, or I could look at it, or I could come back with the entire prohibitions part from the POS.

976
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:21,000
 So why don't we look at conflict of interest next time?

977
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:23,000
 I think we're all in agreement about that.

978
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:34,000
 And then we relook at this list, including the possibility of looking at the city staff code of ethics and decide what's going to be next.

979
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:39,000
 And I can start including -- because obviously every time I try to present research from other cities,

980
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:47,000
 I can start including, if it's relevant, what the city's ethics -- employee ethics policy says as well as part of that.

981
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:48,000
 Right.

982
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:51,000
 I think that's what you can agree on.

983
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:53,000
 But I would love to see everybody on the same page.

984
01:21:53,000 --> 01:22:01,000
 I think that would be good.

985
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:04,000
 I'm not trying to meet ethics policy.

986
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:05,000
 Okay.

987
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:08,000
 Half the day.

988
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:09,000
 So can you get a copy of --

989
01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:10,000
 Oh, yeah.

990
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:11,000
 We wouldn't.

991
01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:12,000
 Okay.

992
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:13,000
 I just don't have control over it.

993
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:14,000
 Yeah.

994
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:15,000
 Interesting.

995
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:25,000
 Does that -- so next time we'll look at the whole list again, it'll be like a buffet and we'll decide what -- Andrea?

996
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:26,000
 I'm sorry.

997
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:37,000
 Would it be possible -- like, if you're looking into that, would you be able to send us a link to that code prior to the actual meeting agenda?

998
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:42,000
 Would it be possible to just have a -- get an email with the links of the two different ethics codes?

999
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:45,000
 I'm sorry.

1000
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:46,000
 That would be great.

1001
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:47,000
 Yeah.

1002
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:52,000
 Both the staff and then the city officials.

1003
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:55,000
 And I know that they're all available.

1004
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:56,000
 It's just that --

1005
01:22:56,000 --> 01:23:02,000
 You're asking for a copy of the city code for the employees and such.

1006
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:03,000
 Yes.

1007
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:10,000
 And then send also what we have created as our code for ethics for officers.

1008
01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:12,000
 Yes.

1009
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:13,000
 It's on the right side right now.

1010
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:14,000
 It is.

1011
01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:15,000
 And I know it is.

1012
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:17,000
 And it's just that I've been meaning to --

1013
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:19,000
 It's 1.001.

1014
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:21,000
 That's not pretty long.

1015
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:22,000
 Yes.

1016
01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:23,000
 We can provide the links.

1017
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:26,000
 Please.

1018
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:27,000
 Okay.

1019
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:28,000
 Any other --

1020
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:29,000
 So do we want to --

1021
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:30,000
 I'm sorry.

1022
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:31,000
 Go ahead.

1023
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:37,000
 Well, I just have one other item that has been on my list for quite some time.

1024
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:48,000
 It's very simple, and what I would suggest is it's just a simple reminder that this Board of Ethics is a citizen-driven initiative.

1025
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:53,000
 This is all about citizens trusting the government that we're all living under.

1026
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:56,000
 We serve no governmental function here whatsoever.

1027
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:59,000
 Now, in the past, we've had some -- excuse me.

1028
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:01,000
 We've had some speakers.

1029
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:07,000
 The last meeting was Dillinger, I think, was his name.

1030
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:16,000
 What I'm going to suggest, respectfully, is that our agenda include right up at the top public comments.

1031
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:18,000
 Oh, it should.

1032
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:19,000
 It does.

1033
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:33,000
 Because I've gone back over, and this opening paragraph here sounds like whoever visits us needs to talk to a posted agenda item.

1034
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:42,000
 Now, there are some citizens in this town that want to bring new ideas to this ethics board, citizens that have lived under other forms of ethics.

1035
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:53,000
 So all I'm suggesting is that we have at the start of every meeting just a simple heading that says public comments under two categories.

1036
01:24:53,000 --> 01:25:02,000
 Number one, if it's a brand new topic, anybody in this town that is concerned about ethics ought to be able to bring a new topic

1037
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:09,000
 and sit right at that -- or stand right at that roster and talk to us for three or four minutes.

1038
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:19,000
 The other kind would be somebody that has an opinion about a posted agenda item, which maybe they could just be recognized when we get to that agenda item.

1039
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:21,000
 Yeah, it should say that.

1040
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:22,000
 We'll make it update.

1041
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:25,000
 If that's already been approved by the board, it should say that.

1042
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:26,000
 It just needs to be clarified.

1043
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:37,000
 Well, I've gone back over, and I would really love to just literally say the words "public comments" as an invitation to the citizens of this town to know that this is a citizen-driven board,

1044
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:40,000
 and we need you here, we need to hear what you think about this.

1045
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:41,000
 I would love it on the agenda.

1046
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:45,000
 You know, John Doe wants to talk about blah.

1047
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:48,000
 They have to register to have it on the agenda.

1048
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:52,000
 Public comments don't have to have that information to them.

1049
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:57,000
 Whatever hits paper lets them know they're welcome.

1050
01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:03,000
 Come sign up, whether it's a new topic at the first or an agenda item, sign up, whatever.

1051
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:07,000
 We'll work with the city secretary's office to make sure that's clear on here.

1052
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:11,000
 That is possible now, but I understand what you're saying.

1053
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:18,000
 Well, I know we did that in the past, but I just was looking for something a little more visible here that says, "Come on, come on and talk."

1054
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:22,000
 This is only the second meeting that it's actually been approved, so we're still working out some things.

1055
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:25,000
 Come on and talk to us. We won't fight.

1056
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:28,000
 I think that would help with trust.

1057
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:33,000
 So there are no other comments or anything.

1058
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:38,000
 So it is now 6.57 and this meeting is adjourned.