Oct 25, 2023 Mobility Committee on 2023-10-25 8:00 AM

good morning welcome to the mobility committee meeting Wednesday October 25th 2023 8 o'clock we're here in the work session room forum is present do we have any citizens comment on any agenda items nothing gets coming in you all know okay so we're gonna move forward that go to number two items for individual consideration we need approval for the minutes of September 27th all right and I second that so that is approved then we're gonna read I'm sorry do we not actually have to have a vote okay so we have first and a second we have a vote can I get a vote I I so it is our approved thank you for the reminder we are going to skip item B and we're gonna come back to item B but we're gonna go to item C MC to three days zero to zero our staff memorandums starting with our Bonnie Bay break update all right good morning everybody Seth Garcia deputy director of capital projects so quickly Bonnie Bray update so phase three we did award a contract to sunk construction we issued a notice to proceed for October 16th so they're currently working on submittals here in the next few weeks you're gonna see them out there replacing utilities and starting on the duck bank work in front of UNT's Apogee Stadium so we've got a lot of active coordination going on with UNT for the football schedule so once we get all those submittals completed you'll see those utility crews moving out there to start those installations Bonnie Bray six so we're currently shooting to advertise in quarter four of 2023 we're working with text are really closely to try and get our state letter of authority we've got one more relocation agreement for Eagle Ridge that's coming through it will come before council so currently we're pursuing a path with text dot to be able to advertise the project prior to having that relocation completed but with the understanding that the relocation will be done before we begin construction Hickory Creek Road phase three so we're currently in active construction we've hit a little hiccup with the Kansas City Southern Canadian Pacific Railway so we're currently working through a few things with that item as well as our encore relocations we have an encore electric line that feeds the lights and gates for the signal crossing so we're working through with the railroad company to have a temporary service brought over until we take that rail crossing out so right now we're kind of a little hesitant on how we're going on the bridge work but with the weather coming in there's not a whole lot we can do out on that site currently anyways so we're keeping an active eye on that and monitoring the request came in for Bradshaw Street and East Prairie after the rain event so this is southeast in package B part of that project does include subgrade restoration and so we're actually digging out approximately 8 to 12 inches and putting in flex space subgrade we got hit with a rainstorm essentially once we had dug a pond in the roadway which made conditions very treacherous for some of those residents so our contractor McCarthy worked quickly to try and get a drivable surface back in place for those folks of course we have it currently closed to through traffic it's just supposed to be accessed for local residents since that time we were able to get the subgrade in place and pave out the first few layers and so we'll be coming back with topping here in the next few weeks hopefully prior to Thanksgiving as we move on to East Sycamore another portion of that was we did have an area that experienced a trench failure next to the creek that was caused by a bore pit that was there so we actually bored a new water line underneath the drainage channel so as we bored they're supposed they're required to compact and lifts coming upwards when you have vertical infrastructure such as the water line coming up it gets difficult to compact around that infrastructure that's sticking up so we did experience a small trench failure the contractor is working to address that and before we get that topping that surface layer of asphalt on so that is warranty work that's at the the dime of the contractor so they'll be replacing that and of course we still have our two-year warranty after contract acceptance so we'll continue to monitor that area since we've experienced a failure there as well yes ma'am so the what it looked like to me was that the road kind of buckled up this way it kind of went up like a little mountain yeah so it's actually the opposite everything around it caved in where the water pipe was sticking oh yeah and so what you saw was the actual infrastructure holding up the subgrade and then everything around it had settled yes ma'am yes ma'am very close though mm-hmm all right any other questions thank you good morning Brett Bouchard deputy city engineer so we're looking at I believe last month looked at the accidents on the Tickrey Street back in parking so the request came in to look at was there any follow-up accidents or pedestrian vehicle accidents collisions that happened we did confirm with our PD and the report that we pulled these numbers are correct we did look at the different accidents by vehicle and pedestrian or bicyclist and vehicle or bicycles pedestrian we show that there is three total crashes in that time frame one in 2017 are three in 2017 one in 2018 and one in 2019 so that's included in this total number of collisions or crashes on the back-end parking can I ask a question about the back-end parking yeah now we I've noticed that there are more people where people are pulling in I don't I'm not saying more people but I'm noticing there's a higher relation that people are pulling in are these crashes related to them backing out or is it have we recognize that these are people that have backed in and they may have had an incident can you can you all tell so the only way we can tell is by looking at how the crashes are are categorized and a lot of times it's categorized to yield right away categorized to yield the left turn turning an unsafe condition and so there's nothing specific that says related to the back-end parking but when I looked at all the crashes on that section Hickory we went through and we looked at all the different what the tags were the way they categorized it and so all the ones that were either a failed to yield turning an unsafe condition those types of related incidences what were keyed in is what we pulled as we related to the back-end parking okay yes I appreciate the the follow-up on the date and I think part of the reason that I asked for in our previous discussion was is it accomplishing the the goal of you know getting towards what in later years became vision zero in terms of fatalities and error incidences not even fatalities but and so I guess reviewing the data before the meeting do we have a feel for what the ratio of pedestrian vehicle interactions are in the downtown quarter in general because this is so low that's essentially random edge case and and so essentially let's say one could argue it's working great there's there's hardly any pedestrian vehicle interactions but we would only know that if we knew the level pedestrian vehicle interactions in general in the region as to whether this area and and it's going to be really tricky because not everything is the same as Hickory because of all the use that they have so that I'm realizing that there's a lot of noise in this is in the equations are there do we have a feel for what the general level of pedestrian vehicle interactions are because my sense is if it's basically zero you could argue this is working and and that's sort of what I'm asking so I think you know the way that you might be able to answer that question our approach is people don't want to get new crashes they'll do they they'll do they'll adapt to whatever the road situation is and you can see that from the data where in the earlier years there was a higher collision rate or more crashes because people weren't used to the road condition and as people have gotten used to that road condition they've adapted and fit in to avoid collisions I know I've driven down Hickory Creek out Hickory Street went down there on Monday not relatively regularly there's a lot of pedestrians a lot of people that's a busy road to see this few crashes I think that's you know reflective of the character of the road and people driving a safe behavior and pedestrians acting a safe behavior so when we've actually had a couple of Friday Friday report requests come in about putting some additional signage or some additional crosswalk or elimination on Hickory Creek and we are looking at putting in let pedestrian signs making that more pedestrian friendly corridor to kind of slow make drivers more aware that pedestrians might not cross at just the crosswalks but anywhere on the roadway so we're doing things to make drivers aware of that situation it's not a high number of crashes a very crashes you know a lot of statistics right you can't ever get to zero yeah so it's um it's a tool in our toolbox as to what we can use on other roadways and we want to develop other roadways it's we get community feedback as to what they like what people the community wants it does not want and we can also look at the number of tickets that are written in as you you know Councilmember Bird was saying is that people are still pulling in instead of backing it and there's enforcement signs there so we have enforced throughout the years written a numerous number of tickets for people parking in the wrong direction now I appreciate all that follow-up I guess I think it's clear that there's at least a I don't know if they're a majority or minority but there's there's it's clear that there's a vocal group of citizens that are uncomfortable with either the change aspect or or just the scenario period and the reason I think you see the the policy leaders asking the questions is if we're going to go away from that comparability factor then we need to have the data that suggests it is is a viable tool but seeing four accidents in eight years is I I feel like it does feel like it's sounding like a viable tool if there's been four pedestrian collisions in eight years I think that's that's a good indication yeah and everything that we're trying all these different pilot projects we're doing is just adding tools to our toolbox so we every situation is unique we have to look at the conditions and the context of it before we choose what might work in that area and so this is just another tool in our toolbox of okay what does the roadway look like we've gotten some lessons learned we've talked internally about the way that it's functioning about the issues that we're seeing with it the feedback we're getting it so there's definitely lessons learned that we would know to change going forward if we want to use this type of measure on a different roadway I would just add to that Brett that I think in order to actually see whether or not you know this is an example or a certain area this is you know the right design you're asking kind of overall downtown I think we would need to collect the data and look at the accident information of other surrounding roadways to do some kind of comparison whether it is we collect data whether it is we go back and pull the same exact sample for roadways that have either parallel or front in parking around the square before you would want to say that this is working in comparison to other situations you could have similar situations and we don't have that level of information right now to tell you that back in parking is safer or is working in a different mode than front end parking or then parallel parking so when you ask what's happening in the downtown and what people are comfortable with they've adapted to the current situation they haven't necessarily said we like this better than we like that there's always going to be people that like different things but in order to actually understand what's going on in the overall downtown and some of that may even come from the downtown parking study but in order to understand that we would want to pull exactly the same information for the surrounding areas and evaluate it before you could actually do an apples to apples comparison no that's why I ask if we had that data available in the area I'm hesitant to ask for on the matrix because I don't know if it gives us anything because we have no other back projects at the moment so I I just I guess I'm asking for us to if there's bandwidth available in the future as a lowest priority item if we can you know see the kind of data that Becky just mentioned that but I mean it since there's no capital projects involved in something like that then I feel uncomfortable at this time asking for for much effort in that direction understood okay all right next up is speeding on Morris so Morris Street we do have driver feedback signs on Morris Street located between Lakey Street and Newton Street one in each direction we have been collecting data on Morris Street for quite a while now we know there is a relatively higher average speed about 36 miles per hour believe on a 30 mile an hour roadway we do have funding from DCTA trip project to do a traffic calming project on Morris Street we have been talking with the community have there's a couple of community meetings that were held to get an idea of what the community would like to see and how that roadway would be developed or modified to calm the traffic on that roadway we were still in that scoping and planning phase we don't have a clear direction as to what we're going to do on that road but we do have the funding to do a striping traffic calming type of project to change the so to hopefully reduce the speeds on the roadway in addition to that we also have the driver feedback sign program that is being developed and being worked on to help you know move driver feedback signs around the city and slow down traffic question yes what kind of feedback did you get from the community as to what they thought they would like to see there have we had anything that's concrete the first the first meeting that we held we presented a couple different roadways in the city Hickory Street Hinkle old north some other roadways where we've done traffic calming on them the response was they don't like any of them don't do anything to the roadway just slow people down which makes it very hard to slow people down we can't anything right and then we had a follow-up community meeting where they're much more open to doing bike lanes and ballers and stuff like that so we're we've gotten two very mixed responses and so we're working through okay what what direction are we going to go in did they say anything about a turning lane in the middle and I don't believe anything but a turning lane at our recent Southeast neighborhood Association meeting Julie brought in some visuals to show I think it's hard for people to just there's some people that just can't make a decision without seeing it and so I think that that was that was very helpful for them to see the crosswalks you know what kind of crosswalks would you like to see it Lakey and Morris particularly that's a busy corner there so I'm sure you all get with her to see what she found out about what they'd like to have in that in those turns but I was under the impression that maybe a turn signal you know just to narrow the road a middle lane turn you know maybe viable but that's what I've heard I didn't know if it was sent to you all in whatever kind of way all right thank you thank you for more Street oh also the check the you know what I'm gonna put that engaged in I'm not gonna worry about that right here I'll just put it through engaged in yeah I was just gonna mention we have been coordinating with Julie and her team along with transportation services and some of the other feedback we received is in relation to Tomas Rivera and when schools getting out the amount of cars that are stacking in order to pick up their children in that area so there's a lot of competing factors in that area and so we're evaluating those looking at what is the right way or the best way and what we committed to the community was coming back within the next six months as far as presenting several different options and plans so Julie was working on kind of scoping some of those different options to see if there's anything that you know sunk in or someone really liked or attached to and so definitely several different options will be brought back but I just wanted to mention that parking and stacking during those times of drop-off and specifically pick up was one of the major topics that was discussed yeah because it's kind of stacking all the way back up to Woodrow that's correct yeah it does push back work yes sir just because we we brought that up and it's it's common for all of our elementary schools throughout the city where we have these these pick up and drop off stacking issues if is there a policy guideline that you could point us to in terms of our policies regarding mobility design around elementary that I could educate myself about for what we're doing in that regard I think what would be best is if we get to future agenda items if you ask that specific question so we can add it to the agenda there is a lot of coordination that goes on from the development services team when new schools come into play existing schools are different because we work to retrofit or find other ways but definitely something I think that could be brought back as a future item as to how development services and transportation services evaluate those all right next one up is the traffic assumptions for the Bell Eagle Bell locusts Eagle Bell Dallas roundabout that's a mistake so we contracted HDR for the roundabout and we gave them the 2040 comprehensive plan to look at the growth projections and then they also use the tent the Texas text dot responses for the actually have a future planning document that says what your growth projection should be for the metro area and out years so that you use a comp plan for the in years and your outer years use the the tech stock standard the cog standard so the growth projections for 20 from 2020 to 2024 using the comp plan was one was three point one nine percent looking out at the future growth beyond that looked at three percent based on text that recommendation and then an out year and then looked at further years out we use I think about two percent I believe was the text that recommendation so we've looked at different standards we gave we provided the final copy of the report to on the as an attachment and it showed that even using the the projections of we had if we did a 2% projection starting this year of growth the roundabout would be out of function in 2030 is what the report showed is that we couldn't even get it functioning at that that time question yes no I really appreciate the the backup in the report I will admit that I haven't had it there's there's a lot of data in there and I haven't had a chance I mean dating in in excess of what we saw at the when we reviewed this for council so I haven't had a chance so in I will I will ask forbearance while I work through it if I may ask for questions on a future matrix but I'm digesting it now but I really I really appreciate the additional data thank you yes of course thank you and then want to give an update on the citywide speed study so last year to the citywide speed study we brought that forward we changed a lot speed limits on numerous city owned roadways and we had the numerous recommendations on text on roadways we did submit those all off to text last winter we've gone back and forth a couple of times with them throughout the spring we're just now getting responses back we've gotten responses back on a handful of roadways that they agree with that we can change the speed limit so we have updated we have a redline ordinance that we're updating I got a couple got a couple responses back on Friday of ones they declined but they gave us comments so we work through those comments we're on a resubmit those and they're still working through the remaining streets that we've submitted so once we get all those comments back we'll bring back one big ordinance revision for the textile roadways instead of bringing back smaller ones updating them one street at a time but our plan is I know you haven't reviewed them and I hear and take that we're going to come back as a package deal where were there anything that jumped out on the declines one of the clients so far is one that we're not it's FM 1515 they declined the the speed limit recommendation we had on it however we know that roadways going to be rebuilt and their comment was after it's rebuilt restudy it and submit again so we're in the middle design of utilities for that so it's it's going to be rebuilt very soon so we're not too much of a heartburn on that one to getting the client because we can change it and we'll change it again once it's reconstructed because the roadway character changes we did have a recommendation one that we were trying to get through is a 17 mile an hour speed reduction on North Locust north of loop 288 and tech stock can't go below 15 miles per hour speed reduction we tried to emphasize like hey this is a good reason to do it and they said we can only go down 15 miles per hour so they basically said you can't go down to 45 you can only go down to 50 or something like that I don't remember the exact numbers but we'd have to revise our submittal and we submit it okay that makes sense thank you I look forward to the future report yes all righty Brett's quite a bit taller than I am so let's go through the matrix for a future agenda item so Bonnie Bray and Hickory Creek as you know we bring to you every single meeting Bradshaw and we're requesting to remove along with the accident data from downtown parking although we will note that at some period of time if necessary we'll evaluate if there's additional things that need to be done I'm in the downtown and I think some of that will come from the downtown parking study speeding on Moore Street we're going to remove traffic assumptions we've sent you that information at such time you feel like you've had an opportunity to do the download on all of that and want us to bring it back we're gonna take it off for now and then of course the text that response on speed study we're gonna remove and we'll bring back at a future date so we'll leave it at the bottom of the agenda as Brett works through all of those with textile DCTA presentation I know we talked a little bit about the abundance didn't letter that was received I have taken that information and sent it over to Paul Christina with DCTA and they are preparing a presentation currently and will be making a beer first work session item on November 7th I believe I know it's on November 7th I can't remember if it's the first one or not but you will hear from Paul Christina and he is aware of that information that was received so have passed that along so instead of us making a presentation here because you are both members of the council we're just gonna wait and let that presentation be made at the council meeting and if there's any questions in advance that you'd like for us to find out please feel free to submit those actually that were essentially you're asking for nine to be off as well eight and nine yes we're asking for eight and nine because we have prepared actually yes that's incorrect we're not gonna bring that back as a future staff report I apologize that's my mistake we're gonna we've sent that information over DCTA that's not really something that we can speak to or respond to and we pass that information along so we will allow DCTA to make whatever comments that they would like during that time frame and I would just recommend that if there's specific questions or comments that you have in advance of the DCTA presentation on the seventh once you receive the work session packet and information I assume on Friday that you ask or prepare any questions that you might have and you may already have some so that those can be addressed by mr. Christine on the seventh and speaking to that I'm gonna be going on the DCTA route presentation today awesome they're gonna pick us up up the Hickory station fantastic and we're supposed to tour they're gonna drop us back off at about 6 p.m. sounds great so that sounds like it's gonna be very exciting enjoy your day I hope you brought your umbrella awesome okay so last meeting also we talked about the pedestrian and bicycle safety audit concerns that'll come as a future staff memo if there's specific things that we want to bring to you but realize that there are we did receive the email from miss rumor and then we also will bring that back through the audit process when there's a follow-up so we're gonna leave that on the agenda because we know there'll be future times that we want to be able to come back to you and speak on that specifically yes sir thank you chair the one of the things that I think has come up in the interim and I'm not I don't recall miss rumors exact items but I'm one of the things that come up in terms of bicycle and pedestrian safety is whether we are going to engage in separate mobility planning for this came up in DC RC the other day and other locations of whether we're going to engage in separate mobility planning for side paths especially ones that are not necessarily adjacent to or separable from the roadway and so I don't know if that would be part of this discussion we need to be a separate discussion and that I guess I'm really throwing that back to you is form for side path mobility and trail mobility are is that part of this discussion in terms of the same sorts of roadway mobility planning that we always do for everything are we considering for this bicycle and safety audit that that separability concept where you know we're we're doing mobility planning on this trail as you know destination planning all the other things that they go in it separately than roadways or not and is that part of this or should should I be requesting that as a separate matrix item so let me answer that the best way that I know how so the mobility plan has three components to it as you're aware a thoroughfare plan a bicycle plan and then of course a pedestrian plan so there are three different layers to that along with that there was coordination with the parks trails master plan that is specific to their side paths and infrastructure that is not in concert with what would happen along a roadway so there's constant coordination and correlation between those two documents obviously we want a side path to connect to a location where folks can get from a roadway to a side path so there's going to be caught that constant correlation so I think as far as mobility we're looking at it as a whole so there's conversation and of course coordination with the parks department so think of their specific things that you're seeing from a side path perspective or questions that come up those need to be addressed at the same time they are being evaluated with the bicycle and pedestrian concerns do do we have and I can't think of any right now but do we we have any non no they would all be just considered trails I'll answer my question for myself but I'll finish anyway do we have any side paths that are not trails that are not considered trails they're just in sort of your domain in in in capital projects and engineering there's nothing that's coming to my head at the moment I'm not thinking of anything either okay so and I guess the reason I bring that up is the the the vector of sort of feedback and why it may or may not relate to Susie's concerns sorry misrumors audit concerns is that's the same sort of mapping and destination planning it's not necessarily a trail it is is it a it is really more of a mobility argument so I will take under you know advisement that this this should be brought up except excuse me as a separate matrix item or here I guess that's my my my question is is if I want to bring this up as a separate matrix item or here and and and and you can you can advise me on that you know mobility as it is itself not necessarily recreational mobility so if it's not specifically related to something that came up during the bike pet audit then I would recommend that you bring it up as a separate item and then let staff determine whether or not there's a correlation between that and what was a part of the bike pet audit fair and then I'll probably get my ducks in a row then and ask for very specific questions at the next meeting no problem thank you so bike etiquette was one of the topics that was discussed we're gonna be working with transportation services and bringing that back at the next meeting on the 29th along with the corner of Moore Street and Woodrow that was a specific question about a signal in that location and so we'll be bringing that back and we are currently working on some GIS efforts to map sidewalks and bike corridors that is taking some time and because some of those elements have never been mapped so that'll come back in a future conversation the downtown parking study I know you're seeing lots of information we did provide an update back in August but we will provide additional update but I know you're seeing a lot of information out there on social media currently about the downtown parking study so we encourage you to share that and the citywide parking study is actually out on the street right now so we're waiting to receive information back on that too and of course those two are working together as similar information as being asked on both of those whether it be citywide or specific to downtown and then Ryan Road we will work to continue to bring something forward as soon as that's available and as you know we have that project on hold until we get through Hickory Creek I have a question about number 14 okay sure it is update oh I skipped it I apologize yeah what is that so that is the update to the spur or the connector as people say between the loop 288 and 380 and what we are going to be doing is holding off on that when John makes his presentation he'll have that map that shows that location but they still have received a tremendous amount of public feedback and public comment from when they held the public hearing along with text dot reviewing all of that comment with the consultant at this time also the city has had some comments associated with that there's not a clear path forward and not information to bring forward yet so that's why it's just on this message as a future item when John fills its partner along with text out in the city John will have someone come as a part of his presentation and bring that information forward but it's not ready to go live at this point so it's still a graphical representation yes ma'am well I'm still having to get used to the fact that 288 does go past 380 you know I was thinking 288 to 35 and in not remembering there's another 288 yeah so that's on me no problem that so what other items do you have that might you might like to have added to the matrix we want to make sure that we get those down okay the one that we we just talked about a few minutes ago if I could get some information to to either this committee or council whichever way you want to do it sure about our policies regarding design around schools because it's a pretty old issue and we're constantly bringing in these school stacking questions to you all the time and and I feel like some of that could be mitigated if we had a better understanding and can communicate that understanding back to the public through our bully pulpit mechanisms I think that would be helpful if we had some you know policy guidelines that we could review and educate ourselves about that was one and then I don't know this is quite reaches the level of matrix item but I'll bring it up here sure and that is in the 2019 bond program is especially in the as it's gone through the north parts of town where they've been lowering the grade of the gas lines to do the intersection or in for the future renovations of the roadbed we've been getting all right I don't know if Vicki has but I've been getting a lot of feedback and I think some of the other counselors have to saying yes we got the letter like a month or six weeks in advance of when they actually started doing it what but maybe this is just a question what is our policy for our contractors in terms of when they actually notify people about start of starting construction is it just the letter that we sent out or or do they do a in five days we're gonna start or in 48 hours we're gonna start kind of notice so it varies so I think it'd be best for us to bring that back to you because it depends on whether it's internal crews whether it's one of our utility contractors whether it's one of our franchise utility contractors so there's a lot of information that's presented when those public meetings happen with the residents and so I think it'd be best if we bring that information back to you specifically and kind of talk through what is the typical pattern that happens so that sounds fine so I'll ask for that to be and I'll provide just a little more context to the ask and that is in general the the neighbors that are there they're not they understand they want the road beds fixed they want the gas lines fixed all that nobody's I mean everybody's understanding that it's gonna be discombobulating while we're in process they are what they don't like is the surprise and they all admit to me when I talked to them on the phone yeah we got the letter so they're not truly surprised but they're surprised when it commences sure and that's the part that they find discomforting it you know so if we could get some clarity on when and perhaps so then we can decide whether new policy directives need to be done I would love that absolutely thank you for the feedback and we'd be happy to bring that back anything okay already then we will close this item and move on to the next thing we'll let you call the other item all right well we'll go back to be item MC to three there's zero four six receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the city of the end transportation wait a minute it's a very one mobility status report mr. John Polster he's here looking good everybody good morning I'm a little taller than Becky so on on 35 North job the you see there's a bunch of dates here they're ready to let dates the four late dates correlate with the four different projects north of 77 you'll notice that they're all roughly in 2024 which is when they'll be ready to let we have the full funding of eight hundred and one million dollars for these four projects the different let dates you see actually showing the let date columns are their current let dates based on where those dollars are put in the 10-year unified transportation plan so there are opportunities to move some of these projects up if there's room in the UTP for that cycle when we come through next year to update it if we're ready they can move those up but essentially everything north of 370s I mean 77 is fully funded at eight hundred million dollars and we'll be ready to let by next year and that goes to six lanes so six lane main lanes and then two lane frontage roads all the designs is almost done we've got most of the right away acquired and the critical path items are the utilities and we're working constantly with each of those utility providers to make sure they hit their marks I have a question on that one you bet you I apologize I just wanted to confirm or clarify where I see it starts at the 288 35 and where is that where does it in is that Milam that's all the way up on County Road 3008 or 3007 it's in 2002 it's one of those numbers but it ends at the county line so it goes into it goes into two what is that Grayson or cook up there it goes into another textile district actually okay so all the way through Denton County 35 north of Denton will be six lanes no ma'am just the six lanes general purpose now this is the merge project and it's 35 E and W north to 77 where the other project starts so it's about 500 million dollars and this project will go under the knife in April so come April everything from the merge basically everything in Denton will be under construction and it'll be the ultimate design so from where 35 E picks up all the way to 380 with they will be building the told managed lane components they will not be activating them because we don't have a toll manage line to the south of there but the bridge structures the pavement and all of the the necessities will be there for the future and it'll go to six lanes with three two two three two frontage roads which means that you'll have two lanes as you leave across street and then an auxiliary line will come on at the exit ramp stay on the frontage road a third lane and then as the entrance ramp goes on to the freeway it'll drop off and go back to two so it goes two three two throughout the corridor and that's a in your more urban areas that's a traffic control situation so that the main lanes get impacted or you want to go in an in-town movement but you don't want to ride the frontage road you can get on the main lanes get off come on back and forth and it allows the traffic to flow better and again it's going to go under the knife in April and that's assuming all these utilities get completed but city of Denton is on track one other thing I wanted to bring up is we have the aesthetics from the city and we've got comments back from text art from the Dallas bridge section back to the city and so we're working out all the aesthetic issues that are going through y'all's normal aesthetic process to be included in the in the project once it goes to construction will the will we have an opportunity to see the aesthetics before they're finalized so we can make a comment on them or not we as in City Council members and currently don't have that in the plan although you will see the plans come through through an AFA agreement with text art and an interlocal agreement there's two competing situations going on one is specific information related to aesthetics that the city would be paying for through the parks department and the the parks art fund and then the other is TWU going through their board of regents to make a determination as far as the financial obligation that they want to make for the aesthetics that they actually have planned and we've been working on we're happy to bring that forward if council wants to see that level of information I'll think about what's the best way to do that we might submit it in a Friday report maybe that's a or an ISR type situation but we can definitely work through that so I'll get with Seth and Trevor and find out what way is best to be able to receive some feedback we're on the very tail end of it's been designed we're on the very tail end of that and wanting to make sure it works through the process and in order for it all to be a part of the project it has to have all of its documents completed through council and funding to text art in January so we are on the very tail end so that's why I said maybe a Friday report or something is better than trying to get on a council agenda so we'll work through that thank you yes ma'am yes sir are you are you done with this item because I'm gonna ask chairs indulgence I missed a note of mine on the previous item so whenever you're done okay I'd love to boom great that that ball of our water yeah they're not kind of coordinating with you what is the what are the implications for for test stop in the city in terms of you know the project completion times and the utility movements and things like that I mean obviously the project is gonna go forward but what is it what does it mean when when you hit a bump in the road like this so whenever I get a notice that says somebody's not responding tech start gives that to me and I go do my Guido stuff and so we go meet with ball of water and we tear them up we threaten them we buy them off whatever we got to do because I got a eight hundred million dollar job that we can't hold up so I just got this notice last week I'm gonna give a judge eats to see what he wants to do and we go sit down and ask him what the problem is they tell us what the problem is if it's a money thing we take care of it if it's some other third thing you try to take care of it but we just deal with it aggressively but from our perspective here in the city just don't be on the list yeah and and really this is this is this is something we can be aware of but as yes so no action items for us no not for y'all y'all action items are in your utility coordination so in all of these there is a city component for y'all when that's why we started these quarterly actually we meet monthly now mobility meetings with textile we bring in the district we bring in the area office we bring in the utility coordinators and we make sure the city of Denton is not on that naughty list right because it has ramifications and the main ramifications is if you can't get your projects ready you're not going to get any more projects that's what started this whole thing back in the day when we were doing 2499 2181 the and then we wanted Buc-E's to come in right there was a lot of things that the city needed and the state was reluctant at the time to provide any more projects in the city because they weren't able to deliver the projects they had different regime I don't think I'd see anybody here that was here then and so we had a lot of come to Jesus meetings then so you just it's best to stay off the list but it won't have any impact because the reason the county gets involved with the project delivery is to make sure they hit their marks so there's things that a county can do that text I can't I appreciate that clarity mr. when I know you better I'll tell you what I tell my kids when they ask me what I do for a little bit okay Mayhill at 35 this is the big job well you can't see it on the map okay so what we're doing is just for clarification or recap when we did the 288 job we did the southbound and frontage road between 288 Mayhill and the brinker interchange now that we're doing Mayhill we're going to do the frontage road from Mayhill to 288 northbound which wasn't done previously and we're going to do a grade separation or a bypass lane over a brinker so that when you're going from Mayhill to 288 or 288 to Mayhill you don't have to stop at the light at Bucky's anymore you'll be able to go up parallel at the same elevation as the main lanes and then drop back down to go to 288 or drop back down to go to Mayhill yes the interchange itself at Mayhill will be 12 lanes of traffic unlike 288 which is only 10 so it'll be a significantly larger structure and we are working on a lot of utilities that's the critical path item we are have a lot of atlas continues to be our big problem on all of our projects and we just get in and talk to them about it but they are critical path item on this job and the date that we're getting for ready to let that February 2024 is the date that Atlus is given that they'll be done and we'll see we meet with them every month on it but it's a hundred and twenty five million dollar project it started out at about fifty and then we added things that we knew we had to add like the bypass at Brinker and then cost escalations over the last from 2018 to this year construction escalation tech stops escalation rate is 88 80% increase so we're ready in February 2024 they don't want to move the let day because they're not necessarily trusting Atmos yet right so if they have to go through some more part of 24 then when we they don't like to move a let date out text doesn't like to move it to a further out month they will move it up so we can move it up but they're not moving it up to their confident that Atmos is going to hit their mark and right now they're the critical path on this project and it seems like every time we speak of Atmos I almost hate to say the name Atmos because I know my our bill seems to go up every every time we could say something about Apple so yeah you all be nice to Atmos for trying for us don't make it easy don't make it easy all right so you're 35 W frontage roads from basically Luke 288 West which is 2449 now down to 407 we've got a ready to let date of September of 2025 the right away all 56 parcels are in some phase of acquisition the over the half of those are in eminent domain which means that the people didn't agree with the values or some of the third thing there's other reasons why you go to condemnation but we only have 18 of the 58 acquired and we are as we're asked to help the county steps in and helps whenever the state asks us to but right away the right away is progressing and it is a 341 million dollar project and we're fairly confident that once we get closer to that let date that some portion of this project will be funded probably in the next unified transportation plan update which is we're in August September October so they just started the next cycle so it'll be next August when we'll know if this project gets additional funding okay and then the section to the east of us that's 380 from 288 to 377 this is the interim project where we're adding to the fifth and sixth lane and it's progressing and it is anticipated on tech stops project report to be completed in January so a couple of months away and if you're out there driving it you see they're pretty close to to being done and we have filled in some questions at least at the county level at the city level of some concerns about the continuous raised median from 288 to to May Hill and we're walking the logic with them and understanding that you know the volume of traffic and and that what they're thinking is is it'll act like it is now while it's under construction and right now you're at 11-foot lanes the medians protected by barriers so we're walking through that process with everybody but that's the only real complaint we've had is that people don't want to have to turn right they want to turn left and that was the problem all right yeah just send them to textile it's theirs to do 288 frontage road this is 288 West project so we designed it's a controlled access facility so it'll be main lanes and frontage roads and grade separations and it's fully designed for that and the right-of-way acquisition will be for a full freeway cross-section but what we're proposing to do initially is build the northbound frontage road first because it's the inside of the circle which means the city can allow all the development to come up adjacent to the roadway and they won't have to change any of their connections because that will be the easterly most connection for the 288 section so they won't have to redo their driveways and etc in the future they'll be set and again it's 200 and it'll be it'll be 300 million by the time we get to 2026 and the reason it taking so long I think I've told you all this that the right-of-way acquisition we had the project cleared in 2020 and we were saying well it's going to take us to 2024 to get all the right-of-way which we usually only do about a year and we only do about a year for utility relocates but it's about a year and a half is because we've gone through a gas field before and you have to deal with those gas wells as both a right-of-way acquisition and a utility relocation all at the same time which drags them out because part of the value of those structures or their transmission lines that move the gas from from the well to the collections areas and they have to be moved and calculated so there's a whole lot of moving parts on that and where we've gone through gas wells fields in the past we've had extended timelines for both the right-of-way and the utility so they're calculating those in in that sort of circumstance just just text up buy them out is that just easier or it's all just relocation so no entity can acquire right-of-way without paying fair market value not more or less they can compensate damages etc and so they don't actually they buy them out if they have to a lot of times they want to be relocated because their revenue generators right and so that's where the right-of-way and the utility comes in at the same time because they are just going to move but unlike a a normal utility they lose revenue as they are down while they're moving so that has to be calculated so it's not only a utility relocation it's a value to the reload so textile there is a formula it's like a parking space for a car dealership textile tried to used to buy that stuff out of you know by the acre and car dealerships over the years won the cases that those each one of those car slots generates a certain amount of revenue because they display a vehicle and so over the time the law leveled out to where if you know you got ten spots in a dealership you know those are going to cost you you know $120,000 a pop or a billboard right a billboard is going to cost you 750 to a million five to buy and $26,000 or will relocate typically when a billboard gets unmoored communities have policies that say you can't come back so when textile wants them to move ten feet in reality they're going away so there's a value set same thing with these gas wells they know historically what it's cost them and so textile won't go beyond that on their own but they can be told to go beyond that by a judge or or a commission for the remnant domain so typically if they can't agree on the value they just simply let somebody else decide the value and it takes a long time okay this is sorry I apologize John a question I've got from from the communities is one of education they're they're very interested as as the project goes across Hickory Creek there I've had some people from UNT and others yeah yeah and I know that we're far out and so I guess CP&Y is gonna do the environmental leader environmental was completed environmental clearance was done in September of 2020 then then just for the record when I started this project I was single skinny and handsome three children and they're all out of college it's taking a long time to get this road to where it is right now then then I guess well what I'll do is I'll figure out how to get a whole CP&Y and get the report they work for me okay so ask me what you want the people were just interested in you know the report in their findings they wouldn't get there so it sort of what was the the biology that they found when they did the environmental and any cultural resources absolutely there's no complaint they just know what the information is so just as a for going forward when you get a question like that you can throw it to whoever but text that you're in the Dallas district the Dallas district has a very good open source internet site called keep it moving Dallas dot org calm not not org it's calm I think it should be work but it's calm and you go in and you think it's an interstate or state highway or whatever there's a list I'm up type you hit that type and all those roads will be listed you hit loop 288 West and then you'll look for anything that says environmental clearance right or environmental assessment you hit that it'll show the report and you can download it or you can just read it right there it'll go it'll get you the schematic you'll everything you want to know that's happened on that project will be in that in that in that report so it's a it's there and yeah we closed that out just as a little bit of the history the reason why it's taken 25 years usually doesn't take 25 years is that right here is the best place for that section of 288 to go because before we were way off the map out here which was a significantly higher impact of the Hickory Creek floodplain area and we moved out there because back in the day Denton Airport was going to go to a second runway and they had to have a 5,000 foot displacement from the existing well a state highway has to have a 5,000 foot separation from a runway so we had to be 5,000 feet further from the second runway so what we had it you know halfway through the environmental clearance in the city came back said you know what we changed our mind we're not going to the second runway and you know I talked to the county and I said look the best place for that road was where the second runway was going to be I know we've got a lot of work into this is we're five years into it but we need to start from scratch and so we sucked it in which reduced the crossing of the floodplain and it put it where it needed to go to begin with which was right at that 5,000 foot separation from your existing runway reduces the impact to the to the to the flora and 25 years later here we are so this is where we're back he was talking about this area where we're talking about the time between the two 380 and 288 since we already know the 380 and everybody's plan is a freeway it makes sense of 288 through freeway to have a some type of a free flowing connection between 380 and 288 this is a pictorial of what Westwood has been working with where we knew knew there was some development going on closer to the the actual loop itself and so they tried to find a way to thread the needle cities going through some study for the north east quadrant and tech start looked at all this and so what I have is a bunch of kids that are fighting on much like each other and so we're I'd say we're gonna have a come to Jesus meeting and I think it's this week sometime or next week I can't remember I think it's next week and we're gonna get in the room and we're gonna find out what the problems are and then so typically when I'm beating somebody up I don't like that it'd be a lot of people right because I don't want to think I'm beating them up because I'm showing I don't want them to beat them up because they need to be beat up so we're gonna beat them up figure out what the art of the possible is then we're gonna come back and meet with Becky staff and then based on that we're gonna bring what we think is the best path forward but right now I got I got arguing engineers that need to be corralled yeah I really appreciate that because you know there's a there's we had the discussion last month of the month before about this and and and and this is this and the outer loop that you'll covered next is are in another soon are causing me as a counselor so much heartburn right now yeah because of all the stakeholders so I'm I'm really following this closely so I'm really interested so we're gonna get down to finally will be we're good well again it won't be the we're anticipating an environmental clearance in 25 and so that's when this alignment is set right anything prior to that if someone tells you they know where that roads going their line to you because if it's not environmentally cleared it's not protected and that's not the alignment you can't buy right away you can't do anything with it it's a it's a line on a map but we're working towards that and what we have to do in order to get to that point is you have to consider the environment floor and fauna we got to include the public and the process and we can't violate any of your property rights right that's why it takes so long I mean you don't let me make me not have to do any of those three things and we'll build you that road tomorrow but that's not the way it works so this is an iterative process so the engineers went crazy on wild alignments and there was like 13 of them at one point and every alignment you show is a new group of people to deal with right so you I appreciate creativity but not at the expense of trauma right so we're gonna we're gonna get it we're gonna get it back into the realm of reality and it'll reduce the number of people that are worried because we will have one or two specific alignments that we think we can carry through the process what are the questions I asked you last time or maybe honestly if I had been a question of Becky so I apologize that that cemetery there did we get any clarity because that's a I mean with cemeteries that's a fixed point in space yeah we're not going near those cemetery right there do we have any clarity on that sort of concept well I will tell you that we're not going anywhere near if there's if any one of my engineers showed an alignment they had anything to do with the cemetery they're fired we're gonna get because you don't touch cemeteries and you don't touch churches so John during the public feedback what Mayor Pro Tembeck is referring to is there was additional conversation about there is a cemetery currently shown on the schematic but an additional cemetery that maybe folks weren't aware of that was I believe to the northwest or maybe northeast of the alignment so when the evaluation is going on such as you've spoken to with text odd and yourself those are a part of those comments and feedback that was received from the public so that's what he's referring to it's not just the one that's shown currently on maps but there was another area so but your comment I'm sure still stands regardless we're gonna we're gonna get this down to the reality and then we'll bring you back and then that will reduce the number of people that are torqued because there'll be fewer alignments if you were engineers okay this this segment segment no no not her the ones I pay for I can't do anything to her she does stuff to me so this segment seven I will show it as a separate project because you'll have it as a separate project but this is actually this part of the project right here and so we're doing the segment seven environmental with the Westwood job for 288 but y'all call it Bonnie Bray section segment seven so I just call it out for you that it's it's on the same track as the loop and then 1515 that we were talking about a minute ago that's got a radio let of June of 2025 and in between now and then I got to come up with you know 34 million dollars we'll we'll figure that out I'm sure I'll figure it out somehow I have a question certainly it's 1515 the same as Oak Street airport oh I have that same question whenever they wanted somebody said hey we need to start the engineering on 1515 I said I'll do it as soon as you tell me where it is I know that we're not you know at the end here but at the same token 1515 is where it is and it's there's not there's no space for it to move around and do things so you're really just doing the renovation project so I guess my question is considering the the heavy load that this road bears when folks reach out to me what can I tell them about alternative pathways and how all that industrial usage is okay it's gonna be accommodated while you're renovating the right it's not so text that doesn't do alternate routes they you've got two lanes of traffic roughly out there right now in some cases more they'll keep the existing number of lanes open that you have right now and then they'll go build the road that's the policy so they don't need an alternate route because if you had four lanes like on the interstates you typically if you've got four lanes of traffic before you when you start most of the time while they're building an interstate you'll keep the four lanes they just may go from 12 feet to 9 and a quarter you know but they'll still be there this road is it going to be a six lane divided facility with flush medians in some short distances where we have a lot of left-turn movements and before we started right we had the county decided we had basically two clients the city of Denton and all of the people that have businesses out there so we met with Tetra Pak we met with all all people there along that corridor Peter belt and we wanted to know about their their shift timing and so part of what we're going to do is once we get into the traffic control plan once we let the project is we're going to come back to everybody and find out what their schedules are and how we can somehow tweak the shift changes so that they're staggered without screwing everybody up out there while we're building the road so we're going to try to you know put ten pounds in a five pound bag but it's still ten pounds that's that analogy is normally used I'm not sure about that it's the same thing okay FM 1173 good news is the project is cleared let me see we cleared it in 2021 and all right aways acquired which is basically what we needed and now we are relocating utilities primarily on the railroad track back to the third to 35 and that's because when we do the 35 job we want to go ahead and build the 1173 new interchange location at Barthol road which means we got to build that part of 1173 with the project so it's while it's not funded completely well at all we will have a good chunk of it funded through the 35 project next starts to go to construction six lanes the outer loop now the deal on the outer loop is the number of people that become irritated significantly reduces the further along the line you go because right now we're not willing to show you the 72 alignments that everybody wants us to look at because we were doing it what's called there's a categorical exclusion lags a programmatic categorical exclusion which means if you fit a certain criteria you just check a box and you're cleared then you get the environmental assessment and then you've got the environmental impact statement that's the highest level of environmental clearance with the core new alignment green belt conservation the county decided we were going to go ahead and spend 37 million dollars and do the full on EIS which takes a longer but it covers a whole lot more stuff and by the time you get to an alignment on an EA you only got to do two alignments which is no build and the alignment that you want but once you get them all vetted through the process on a EIS you have to take two alignments almost all the way through to the very end and then at the very end pick the one that's least impacted but right now we've got 14 that we're going to try to get down to seven and then those seven we're going to try to get down to two and then take those two through the process and the problem we have is isn't a problem I take that back is that in the EIS if somebody says why can't you go up on 455 and go across the dam well we already know what that answer is you can't go across the dam core won't let you but you can't say that without putting a line on a map going out and doing the work and showing a matrix that says the core won't let you cross there and so during that year and a half period where those 17 18 lines are on a map everybody thinks the outer loops coming in their backyard because if they think it's somewhere that a whole green blob is the outer look but we learned over time that instead of me showing you 17 lines that look like spaghetti they're on the wall just to give you a blob and say we're working in this blob area the three places that we are governed by physically is Collin County has already built a portion of the outer loop in their area and when you drive the northbound D&T section in Denton County up to Grayson County there is a street crossing called the outer loop so that's generally where we have to start the Corps of Engineers has told us and we couldn't just take this on their word we'd have to eliminate all the other alignments if but not for this other issue has told us we can't cross the green belt any other location than at 428 okay and the reason they can say that is because when the green belt was established they got the Corps of Engineers got money from Congress to buy conservation easements on long both sides of the green belt and the conservation easement says you can live out there if you got a barn you can keep your barn your gardening and garden but if the barn burns down you can't replace it you can't add to the barn you can only do what's there and anything that changes has to change less it can't change for more and so literally cross anywhere other than 428 the the green belt would take an act of Congress so they can say 428 so we got across at 428 so you got ten alignments 428 six alignments Milam because we had to hit Milam two reasons one it's on your thoroughfare plan is Milam to that 35 job that does going under the knife next year it cleared the outer loop at Milam Road so the box interchange for the outer loop will be in place in the next couple of years so those three points are fixed plus or minus so plus or minus means 428 has a hundred and twenty foot easement well we need 550 so are they gonna let us widen and they're saying if you can't get through with 120 feet 25 whatever it is you're gonna make it significantly harder on yourself and so we're looking at taking 500 foot of road freeway in frontage rows and double stacking it to get across 428 and then fair it and back out so if that works then we're good Milam we're tweaking a little bit but as we get through the process next year about this time you'll have fewer people yelling at you because you'll that green blob will move further north out of who get closer to 428 and Milam so that's a long answer but that's where we're at made sense to me I know that there's been a lot of activity in the Carter and Hannah properties and determine whether what kind of development was going to go through and that's right there south of the the core bridge on 428 with it and with the more recent activity being sort of a if prop 14 passes could we possibly get some parkland there instead of build out there and and so in in that hypothetical I know that several hypotheticals down down the path but in the case of that hypothetical would it be easier if that was state land or harder if that was state land to get a final alignment if it's a park we're screwed don't build any parts yet yet now one of the things we're doing to make it harder on our own self is that Council of Governments Corps of Engineers they have a overarching plan called transportation stormwater improvement program and basically if you look at half of Wise County half of Denton County it funnels right down the Trinity River into Dallas right there's this Delta that goes right to Dallas well Dallas didn't plan for any runoff up north and they didn't build for it and so initially you know Coggan of course said hey what we'll do is we'll just take all that Denton County and Wise County and turn it into a floodplain right which isn't going to work clearly so we said now we we want to look at a better idea so one of the things we're doing is and we are a pilot project the outer loop is a pilot project for this TSI program where we're we're going to be building a 23 mile long dam right it's called a road so we want to be able to not only acquire right away to the feds because the Corps part of the federal government too but we want to go up and down all of the floodways and create more detention along those natural corridors and then what we also want to do is have retention and I know I'm not sure which one's the right one because I'm not an engineer but what we want to do is take the water instead of running it down slower down the Trinity right which is what you would do when you have big ponds that hold it for a while is send it down and recharge the aquifers right they just as long as it goes away they don't care if it goes down they just don't want it going into Dallas so what we're trying to do is find a way to hold the water not until it can get through Dallas right hold the water until we can find a faster but efficient clean way to get it down into the aquifer and so we're studying that on top of just trying to build a road no I appreciate that there's a there's a lot of simultaneous yeah stakeholders and concerns going on in the region and so one of the things we knew I'll ride off the bat and I know I'm beating a dead horse but this is horse country we don't want the road to be just another highway right if we can we want it to be aesthetically compatible with the area you know it's going to all build out we got a heat map that we keep internal but we lay out all the developments in that green area and when people tell me they moved out to this area because they want to be in the country I already tell them you're no longer in the country you just don't see it yet because in that area between 377 where the outer loop will be the toll road and 380 this little area right here okay 90,000 people are moving into that little square in the next 10 years 90 that's the city Addison right there and that's all across the top part of the county so we're gonna try to make it aesthetically pleasing but mostly we want to make sure that we don't get penalized because we're last to develop right and the regions trying to turn us into a detention pond and basically everything I just said didn't know bullets and here's where I stopped talking I can get it to turn green it's like at the magic touch I don't have so yes Alma locust we are currently working with text on the resolution to bring forward to council it's currently slated to come to council on November 14th that resolution specifically is to prepare information for council so that you understand our intent is to ultimately have Elman Locust from 380 to Eagle become a city roadway and have the turn back to the city of Denton there's several steps that have to go through the first step that the city has specifically is bringing that resolution to council and so Ben and myself have been working on that for quite some time along with Travis Campbell and Amanda Miller to get that through the process text on is moving forward with their project to reconstruct Alma and Locust from south of the courthouse including Eagle along Elm and Locust and so that projects moving through its process and then of course the portion on the north is what we partnered with the county for funding and we're working through getting that project kicked back off working through right-of-way acquisition additional design that's needed so that we can go in replace the utility infrastructure at additional drainage infrastructure and then reconstruct the roadway so once the resolution goes through council we'll submit that to text dot and then text dot will submit that information to the Texas Transportation Commission and they will go through the process of reviewing it and then a minute order will be approved similar to how we do resolutions that will then state that that is going to become a city of Denton roadway and that's all subject to the reconstruction of the roadway that is south of the courthouse and so text that's moving along and at this point we don't have any concerns or some additional data which is an exhibit that has to be included with the resolution and so that information we should have here in the next week or so so that we can make that November 14th deadline I do and I am not sure where it inserts but I know one of the items again on our internal bond proposals for floodplain and that's this region I don't expect the timelines to change but how does that impact our you know our receipt of these roads versus that funding and maybe this this committee isn't the time for that question but I do have questions on how those are integrated if they both come to pass and this one's coming to pass so I mean that's a fate of complete so then the integration of those drainage projects with our adoption of these roads I'd be interested in learning how those are integrated should the voters pass the pep for drainage issues okay sure no problem because we tore up that area we the collective we everyone and it impacted the the economic development in that South downtown region and and so I'm trying to be mindful of that activity going forward so again I'm not sure if it sure now or not you can answer if you think it is but I think it would be best for us to bring that back maybe as a future item or have a separate conversation about that we can explain to you the implications of the pack for phases three and four and there's also additional drainage projects in that area that are all a part of the bond package but essentially some of those projects would be coinciding with each other others of them are really separate because they're separate drainage basins specifically absolutely you're great thank you John thank you okay well we've gone through all of our items and we're here down at number three concluding items we have any concluding items just the one that Becky and I just discussed anything it's more of a concluding item okay well with all that being said we will close out the meeting at 9 31 a.m. thanks everyone for watching and thank you all for being here and being very supportive of us especially you