WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:15.640 >> It's 9 o'clock, we'll call the Public Utilities Board of April 8th, 2019 to order. 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:17.400 We do have a quorum. 00:00:17.400 --> 00:00:23.040 I'm going to suggest we move the closed meeting to the end of the meeting for efficiency. 00:00:23.040 --> 00:00:28.000 So the first item on the agenda is to receive a report and hold a discussion and 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:34.800 give staff direction regarding the 2019 Water Conservation Plan and Drought Contingency Plan. 00:00:34.800 --> 00:00:37.160 >> Good morning, everybody. 00:00:37.160 --> 00:00:43.880 The presentation today was previously provided to council last Tuesday due to some scheduling changes 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:50.040 to the last minute for their work session items, so you'll get to see what they saw last week. 00:00:50.040 --> 00:00:55.320 And at that time, the council didn't make any formal changes or recommendations to change the plan. 00:00:55.320 --> 00:01:00.200 But please consider it and we'll take all feedback you've got for us. 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:04.140 And with that, I think there's also a consent agenda item for 00:01:04.140 --> 00:01:07.680 the ordinance to adopt the Water Conservation and 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:12.560 Drought Contingency Plan if you choose to accept that today. 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:16.280 With that in mind, I'll go ahead and introduce Tyler Dawson, 00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:19.360 our Field Services Technical Manager, to run through the presentation. 00:01:25.320 --> 00:01:35.680 >> Good morning, my name is Tyler Dawson. 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:43.480 As Frank introduced me, I'm a Field Services Tech Manager coming to discuss Water Conservation and Drought Contingency Plan. 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:46.520 Again, we will have an ordinance. 00:01:46.520 --> 00:01:51.080 We have an ordinance to approve this item that we'll request approval on at the end of this presentation for consent agenda. 00:01:52.440 --> 00:01:56.720 This is a document that's about 19 years in the making. 00:01:56.720 --> 00:02:04.440 This was first introduced in its current form in the year 2000 under TCEQ, Texas Commission on Environmental Quality Rules. 00:02:04.440 --> 00:02:11.160 It is advised in framework published by the Texas Water Development Board. 00:02:11.160 --> 00:02:13.280 We've revised this over the years. 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:15.840 We have a required five year update at this point. 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:22.320 So we've gone through and we've kind of scoured the plan, looked to see what we're doing well, what we may need to do differently or do better. 00:02:22.320 --> 00:02:25.240 This is the sixth iteration of that plan. 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:30.880 We did go to hold a public meeting on March 14th to request public feedback on this. 00:02:30.880 --> 00:02:33.960 And as Frank mentioned, we went to council yesterday, I'm sorry, last week, on Tuesday. 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:38.960 The plan consists of two primary components. 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:44.560 The Water Conservation Plan is our approach to long term water resource management. 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:50.200 We all know Texas is growing, DFW Denton is growing. 00:02:50.200 --> 00:02:52.880 We want to make sure we have water resources in the future. 00:02:52.880 --> 00:02:56.280 And the Water Conservation Plan is the way we try to manage our resources better. 00:02:56.280 --> 00:03:03.120 The Drought Contingency Plan only comes into play in times of drought or emergency. 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:05.000 So it's something we don't do every day. 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:12.600 It's plans we make for the future, just in case that's something that's needed for an emergency or to mitigate very short term drought. 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:22.760 To start with the Water Conservation Plan, I've given you a look at how we've done, how the city has done on water conservation since the year 2000. 00:03:22.760 --> 00:03:28.040 We measure our effectiveness on a gallons per capita per day, five year rolling average. 00:03:28.040 --> 00:03:31.800 So every five years we'll roll in the data, see what it looks like. 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:38.800 You can see we've come down from about 189 in the year 2000 down to 140 in the current five year average. 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:44.840 This is all due to basically public response to conservation efforts, 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:49.400 a conservation message, and items in the conservation plan. 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:53.800 The blue line you see here is our goal of 152 gallons per capita per day. 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.880 You will, I'm sure, notice that the orange line has dipped below our goal. 00:03:57.880 --> 00:04:01.320 That's, one, it's a great thing. 00:04:01.320 --> 00:04:06.880 It shows that our community has responded very well to any conservation messages we've put out. 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:11.040 But also, we've had five years that have been very rainy. 00:04:11.040 --> 00:04:21.240 If you remember, the drought ran from about 2010 to 2014, broke in 2014, lakes flooded, Trinity River flooded in 2015, and we've continued to have some mild and rainy summers. 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:27.800 So that's really suppressed water use in the last five years, driven this number down, and so we don't think that's long term sustainable. 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:33.920 We feel a goal of 152 GPCD is long term sustainable with average weather for the area. 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:44.160 The conservation plan itself is built around BMPs, or Best Management Practices, published by the Water Development Board. 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:53.120 Every utility that publishes a conservation plan looks through these BMPs and chooses the ones that are a best fit for that utility. 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:54.600 So we've picked several. 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:58.400 Here's a long list of components within our plan. 00:04:58.400 --> 00:05:03.760 Most of these have been in the plan for a decade or more and are part of the reason for our success so far. 00:05:03.760 --> 00:05:06.360 Here on the next slide, I'll talk through some of the changes. 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:12.280 But the things we've done that are successful range anywhere from simply metering and accurately meeting our customer connections for 00:05:12.280 --> 00:05:18.200 accountability, to finding and repairing leaks, to offering customer water audits. 00:05:18.200 --> 00:05:21.240 If somebody's not sure if they're using water efficiently, we offer a service for that. 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:26.400 These are the five changes to the plans. 00:05:26.400 --> 00:05:29.520 You can see some are checked as simply updates. 00:05:29.520 --> 00:05:31.640 These are very minor and there are a couple of additions. 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:39.520 Section 3.3 in the plan deals with metering of water at the two water treatment plants. 00:05:39.520 --> 00:05:46.160 We have one water treatment plant on Spencer Road that pulls from Lake Louisville, and one at Ray Roberts that pulls from the other side of the dam. 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:50.600 Raw water is water that's pulled from the lake, untreated water. 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:55.360 We want to measure what we take from the lake, and then treated water is what we push out to the system. 00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:02.160 The reason this becomes so important is it's the biggest piece in the puzzle to understanding where our water is used. 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:06.040 We had some concerns about the accuracy of these meters over the last two years. 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:12.360 We've actually replaced the two meters at the Ray Roberts plant last year in May and December. 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:17.560 And we're looking to replace the two meters at the Lake Louisville plant on Spencer Road in 2020. 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:22.920 That'll improve our ability to understand our water use and continue to put effective measures in place. 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:29.680 Section 3.5 deals with our water loss audit, which is an annual program. 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:35.520 You'll actually hear a report from me here in a couple of weeks about our 2018 water loss audit. 00:06:35.520 --> 00:06:40.600 The plan was updated to be consistent with modern water audit language. 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:43.680 We've kind of evolved at the state level how we do the audit. 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:47.400 And we want to make sure we're consistent with that in our conservation plan that that continues. 00:06:47.400 --> 00:06:54.040 Section 3.6 deals with outreach, public education information. 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:57.800 The orange part is what we've added, partnership with nonprofits. 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:00.800 Now, this is not something that we've put in the plan because we want to do it. 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:03.640 We actually put it in the plan because we're already doing it. 00:07:03.640 --> 00:07:05.200 We update this plan every five years. 00:07:05.200 --> 00:07:10.360 And since the last time we revised the plan, these partnerships have been put in place, 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:17.120 including master gardeners and other gardening, irrigation, environmentally focused groups. 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:21.040 So you'll see those come into play with the classes we offer. 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:27.160 Some of the outreach programs are actually driven by nonprofits and we join with them on those. 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:29.120 So we wanted to codify that into the plan. 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.400 We feel that's a successful addition and so we want to continue. 00:07:32.400 --> 00:07:37.840 Section 3.7 is our non-promotional rate structure. 00:07:37.840 --> 00:07:42.600 You may have also heard this is our declining block rate structure, deals with water irrigation. 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:48.440 So for residential customers in the summer, over 15,000 gallons a month, 00:07:48.440 --> 00:07:51.960 you see the price of water increase for an individual residential user. 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:59.120 We have updated the rates in the plan to show what we're currently charging for those services. 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:02.600 And it's something that's a very critical component to the water conservation plan 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:09.760 because it helps residential customers that using an excess of water at your home. 00:08:09.760 --> 00:08:11.560 It can be a cost to everybody. 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:15.880 So it's an accountability factor that helps everybody get on board with conservation. 00:08:15.880 --> 00:08:21.760 Section 5.6, park athletic field and golf course conservation. 00:08:22.760 --> 00:08:25.560 We have added golf course conservation to the plan. 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:28.080 We have focused on park and athletic field already. 00:08:28.080 --> 00:08:29.840 We've decided to expand that. 00:08:29.840 --> 00:08:34.920 The reason this is in the plan is because those are very large landscaped areas. 00:08:34.920 --> 00:08:39.960 So any impact you can make, any changes you can make to those could have very large savings. 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:43.080 We've already worked with our parks department on park and athletic field. 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:47.480 And we want to continue offering help to any golf course managers or 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:51.320 owners to try to find ways to use water efficiently. 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:53.360 We don't want to change the use of their property. 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:57.280 We want to make sure that landscaped property is put to the use that it was intended. 00:08:57.280 --> 00:09:00.120 But we want to improve the water use at those places if possible. 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:08.600 And to change gears into the drought plan, the drought contingency plan. 00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:11.280 Again, this is not a day-to-day program. 00:09:11.280 --> 00:09:15.000 This is a plan that sits on the shelf and waits until a time when it's needed. 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:19.560 The plan can be enacted in three stages and increasing severity. 00:09:19.560 --> 00:09:21.920 Starting with one, increasing up to three. 00:09:21.920 --> 00:09:23.920 And it's triggered in three different ways. 00:09:23.920 --> 00:09:27.840 You can see an A, B, and C triggering condition under each one of these. 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:31.880 Typically, we talk about a drought plan based on a type A trigger, 00:09:31.880 --> 00:09:34.280 which is how much water is left in the lakes. 00:09:34.280 --> 00:09:40.000 So for a stage one, if our lakes are 65% full or 35% depleted, 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:44.040 then we can enact the drought plan to put extra measures in place to start saving 00:09:44.040 --> 00:09:44.920 water in the short term. 00:09:44.920 --> 00:09:48.400 Stage two increases that to 50%. 00:09:48.400 --> 00:09:52.520 In stage three, if the lakes get down to 35% of their capacity, 00:09:52.520 --> 00:09:54.200 we would continue increasing those restrictions. 00:09:54.200 --> 00:10:01.000 You can see that 35% marked in orange, that has changed from 30%. 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:03.560 We felt that was not significant enough. 00:10:03.560 --> 00:10:07.200 We felt it was too much risk to wait until 30% full and 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:09.520 decided to up that standard just a little bit. 00:10:09.520 --> 00:10:11.160 Dallas has done the same. 00:10:11.160 --> 00:10:14.520 As you're probably aware, we share rights in our two lakes with Dallas, so 00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:17.480 we try to partner with them and try to keep our plans consistent. 00:10:18.880 --> 00:10:24.480 A type B condition deals with how much water is needed by our customers. 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:30.240 We have the ability to treat and pump out about 49 million gallons per day. 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:34.080 So far, we have not come close to that, but we're looking into the future and 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:38.520 trying to see when we might get to the point when that might become an issue, 00:10:38.520 --> 00:10:41.640 that the community would need more water than this. 00:10:41.640 --> 00:10:43.480 So we have a type B condition. 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:47.000 If we exceed 85% of our delivery capacity for four days, 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:50.120 we go to next stage one, 90% for three days at stage two and 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:52.760 95% for two days at stage three. 00:10:52.760 --> 00:10:58.960 A type C is kind of an all other, it's a catch all situation and 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:01.400 basically discusses emergencies. 00:11:01.400 --> 00:11:04.840 We have over 600 miles of water main in the city. 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:11.120 We have two plants, two additional pump stations, six water storage tanks. 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:14.800 We do our best to maintain these, but if the worst happens and 00:11:14.800 --> 00:11:18.120 the wrong part fails, then we have the ability to enact the drought plan as 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:18.840 a response to that. 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:24.440 Now this plan, as I said, has been in existence since the year 2000. 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:27.000 It has never been enacted in this form. 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:32.440 So far, we've been able to avoid ever having to use this plan to mitigate water 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:36.440 shortages, but it is there in case the need arises. 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:43.240 And when we enact these stages, kind of the headline is that under stage one, 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:47.360 we would ask all irrigation users, or we would require all irrigation users 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:49.080 to water two days per week or less. 00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:52.800 Stage two would reduce that to one day a week per less and 00:11:52.800 --> 00:11:55.320 stage three would prohibit irrigation. 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:59.480 There are some, you can see a few of the details here, more specific rules that 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:03.160 would come into play in stage two and three especially. 00:12:03.160 --> 00:12:06.520 Again, this does increase with the severity of the circumstance that 00:12:06.520 --> 00:12:08.640 require the drought plan to be triggered. 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:14.120 There are some other resources on our website. 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:18.240 I would encourage anybody who's interested to look through the sustainabledenton.com 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:22.360 or through the water utilities page on the city website for more information on 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:27.080 what we do to conserve water, to help the community have the water they need. 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:29.360 And at this time, I'll take any questions. 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:31.840 >> I had a question. 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:32.440 >> Yes, ma'am. 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.840 >> I was just, I was curious if gas drillers use city water? 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:39.320 >> They can be. 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.560 It's on a site-by-site basis, wherever the water is available for them. 00:12:43.560 --> 00:12:44.280 They have the ability to ask for it. 00:12:44.280 --> 00:12:45.480 >> Have they in the last year? 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:49.880 >> I'm hearing we don't believe so. 00:12:49.880 --> 00:12:50.380 >> Okay. 00:12:50.380 --> 00:12:57.720 Where would they otherwise get their water? 00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:01.720 >> It would depend on the location. 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:03.680 They have the ability to bring in water anywhere, but 00:13:03.680 --> 00:13:06.440 they're obviously going to find whatever's most expedient for them. 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:12.640 >> And maybe shed a little bit more light on this. 00:13:12.640 --> 00:13:17.680 There's several ways that a gas well can use water. 00:13:17.680 --> 00:13:22.480 For example, if there's a surface pond for agricultural purposes, 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:23.920 they could actually use it there. 00:13:23.920 --> 00:13:27.560 Oftentimes, they will either access an existing groundwater well or 00:13:27.560 --> 00:13:30.280 drill one of their own to access the water. 00:13:30.280 --> 00:13:34.560 Or they can get a meter from the meter shop and 00:13:34.560 --> 00:13:43.320 basically meter the water out through city usage through accessing basically a fire hydrant. 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:50.320 So they have definitely, as a industry, used water from the city before. 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:55.880 Here recently, we haven't had a lot of drilling and fracturing operations, and 00:13:55.880 --> 00:13:57.920 so they haven't had a need to. 00:13:57.920 --> 00:14:06.000 However, at the time that we had the most gas wells coming in to the city in any given year, 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:09.600 they only represented a couple of percent of our overall water use. 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:14.880 So it's a large volume, but percentage wise, compared to the city, not huge. 00:14:14.880 --> 00:14:17.000 >> All right, thank you. 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.840 Other questions? 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:23.040 >> Yeah, I do. 00:14:23.040 --> 00:14:29.280 Since this plan has been enacted, I remember a few times that some 00:14:29.280 --> 00:14:38.200 drought plan water scheduling was enacted. 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:42.120 And I just was able to read how it's enforced. 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:48.160 I was wondering if you had any information about if the plans that we make 00:14:48.160 --> 00:14:53.000 actually have the impact, actually reach those reduction goals. 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:56.720 When you ask people to not water or rinse off their pavement or 00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:59.960 only water before six and after ten or the other way around. 00:14:59.960 --> 00:15:03.600 Do you have any data that says that works? 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:08.120 >> We would have to research with other nearby communities. 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:12.840 I know there have been utilities in the area that have had to enact their drought plan 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:15.760 back in 2013, 2014, that time frame. 00:15:15.760 --> 00:15:17.880 That's a question we could ask. 00:15:17.880 --> 00:15:19.400 I don't know right now. 00:15:19.400 --> 00:15:21.040 >> I remember it in 2014. 00:15:21.040 --> 00:15:25.000 >> I just wonder, I mean, when you make a plan, when you set goals, 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:29.800 you have to have some kind of realistic expectation that you can actually meet 00:15:29.800 --> 00:15:33.040 the goals that you're trying to hit, and I was just wondering if. 00:15:33.040 --> 00:15:36.160 So you just kind of looked around and seen what other people done and 00:15:36.160 --> 00:15:41.520 used our historic plan to come up with this plan, basically? 00:15:41.520 --> 00:15:43.240 >> Those are big pieces of it, absolutely. 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.600 We do look to other cities and see what success they've had. 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:50.040 Again, we do try to team up with Dallas as well as we can. 00:15:50.040 --> 00:15:52.920 They're pretty robust in their conservation program, so they're a pretty good guide for it. 00:15:52.920 --> 00:15:55.160 >> Yeah, yeah, okay. 00:15:55.160 --> 00:15:55.660 Thank you. 00:15:55.660 --> 00:15:57.880 >> Any questions? 00:15:57.880 --> 00:15:59.840 All right, thank you. 00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:05.440 The next item is, receive a report and hold a discussion and 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:10.400 give staff direction regarding Solid Waste Department's enhanced liquids recirculation program. 00:16:20.040 --> 00:16:30.480 >> Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the board. 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:35.000 My name's Brian Burner, I am the Deputy Director of Solid Waste for the city of Denton. 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:40.800 I appreciate the opportunity to come today to talk about our enhanced liquids recirculation program. 00:16:40.800 --> 00:16:45.040 With me here today, I have Ethan Conks, who is the Director of Solid Waste here at the city of Denton. 00:16:45.040 --> 00:16:51.160 I also have Kevin Yard and David Mezacapa, who are engineers with SCS Engineering. 00:16:51.160 --> 00:16:53.200 They are our partners in this evaluation. 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:56.120 We've hired them, they're probably some of the best people in the country. 00:16:56.120 --> 00:17:02.000 Come out and look and evaluate the operations of systems like this to determine, are they effective? 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:03.280 Are they meeting our goals? 00:17:03.280 --> 00:17:09.800 And they've run, earlier this year they completed an in-depth review of our process here. 00:17:09.800 --> 00:17:17.280 And based on their findings, we bring those before you today. 00:17:17.280 --> 00:17:25.880 You may remember last year about this time, Blue Ridge consultants brought forth a litany of recommendations. 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:29.120 Regarding the evaluation of our solid waste service over the past year, 00:17:29.120 --> 00:17:32.680 we've actually been doing some in-depth business case analysis over the past six months. 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.760 Y'all been seeing some of those and with related to concrete recycling. 00:17:36.760 --> 00:17:41.720 We're going to have other programs coming before you here in the near future. 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:46.320 This is just the next one in the series that we're looking at here today. 00:17:46.320 --> 00:17:51.840 This is a very technical issue, so I'm going to try to keep it as high level as I possibly can. 00:17:51.840 --> 00:17:55.800 But we are going to get down in the weeds on a couple things. 00:17:55.800 --> 00:18:01.720 So please bear with me as we go through these and as you have questions arise, please ask them. 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:05.840 Either myself, David, Kevin, Ethan will be able to respond back. 00:18:05.840 --> 00:18:11.040 So when we talk about landfills in particular, they're not just holes in the grounds and dumps. 00:18:11.040 --> 00:18:18.140 They are highly engineered units that are extremely regulated through both the state, 00:18:18.140 --> 00:18:21.920 the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality, as well as the Environmental Protection Agency. 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.480 And everything we do in there has a consequence. 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:32.400 It's important for us to be in compliance to ensure that first of all, we're not impacting the environment, 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:37.160 but also meeting the needs of the community, ensuring the landfill capacity that we have. 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:42.480 Having a very environmentally friendly, yet cost effective place to put our garbage. 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:50.040 So one of the first regulatory things that we have to do is maintain a gas collection and monitoring system. 00:18:50.040 --> 00:18:51.560 All landfills generate gas. 00:18:51.560 --> 00:18:53.160 It's just a matter of fact. 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.360 With the exception of those that are inert, basically except only dirt and rock, 00:18:57.360 --> 00:19:01.840 every other landfill in the United States of America will generate landfill gas. 00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:04.760 That is a fact, regardless of what we do to it. 00:19:04.760 --> 00:19:10.160 Now, a lot of times, as part of our landfill gas mitigation system, we will put in pipes, 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:18.520 we'll collect this gas, and we'll either flare it off to help destroy some of the non beneficial aspects of it. 00:19:18.520 --> 00:19:23.680 Or we'll put it into some other mechanism, whether it be a landfill gas to energy, run an engine off of it, 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:30.680 generate electricity, convert it to pipeline quality gas, send it to homes, send it to vehicles, some of those things. 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:35.480 Many landfills use this, just given the amount of gas that they have. 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:40.680 And since 2004, City of Denton's landfill, we've actually been in a contract 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:46.480 with DTE to operate one of these engines that generates electricity. 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:50.120 The electricity that we produce is actually purchased by DME and 00:19:50.120 --> 00:19:56.800 goes out to power about 1,000 households plus or minus in the system. 00:19:56.800 --> 00:20:03.080 The third piece, when we talk about landfill component, is our enhanced leachate recirculating system. 00:20:03.080 --> 00:20:07.040 The best way I can equate this, let's say I've got a car. 00:20:07.040 --> 00:20:10.040 It goes well, but I want it to do just a little bit better. 00:20:10.040 --> 00:20:11.400 So what am I going to do? 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:16.400 I'm going to put a turbocharger or supercharger on it, and it's going to give it more power, it's going to be more effective. 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:18.440 And that's what this is. 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.440 A lot of landfills, there are about 3,000 permitted landfills in the United States right now. 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:29.200 Roughly 38 of them have some sort of enhanced leachate recirculation bioreactor type system. 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:33.520 There's two different terms that are used interchangeably, depending on what state you're in. 00:20:33.520 --> 00:20:38.480 State of Texas, they recognize the terminology, enhanced leachate recirculating system, okay? 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:43.640 If your supercharger or your turbocharger is working well, you've got something that's going down the pike. 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:47.360 But every now and then, it just doesn't work right, and you have to take it in the mechanic, 00:20:47.360 --> 00:20:51.400 determine whether it's efficient for you to continue to operate that system. 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:53.240 And that's the point we're at right now. 00:20:53.240 --> 00:21:00.120 We've gone in, we've looked at the ELR, and we've asked the questions, does it make sense to continue operating it? 00:21:00.120 --> 00:21:02.520 And we'll come to that here in a little bit. 00:21:02.520 --> 00:21:07.400 So some definitions, when we talk about leachate, that's that liquid part of the gas. 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:10.360 We went to the Committee on the Environment here last week, and 00:21:10.360 --> 00:21:14.920 Councilman Meltzer effectively used the term garbage juice. 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:21.240 And that's really the best way, is that liquid portion of the garbage that comes out, it's the leachate. 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:27.760 It's liquids that are already in the trash, it's rain, it's anything else that touches trash that's inside that regulated area. 00:21:27.760 --> 00:21:32.960 So when we talk about leachate recirculation, we're taking that liquid portion, we put it back in the top, 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.200 let it go back down through the garbage, it enhances the microbes, 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:44.200 it destroys that organic waste just so much better, allows for settling, produces landfill gas. 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:46.960 And at the end of the day, you try to meet some certain goals. 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:51.600 When we talk about landfill gas, again, every landfill produces methane. 00:21:51.600 --> 00:21:56.160 And again, it's just due to that normal decay of trashed organic material. 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:57.960 ELRs, though, again, it supercharges it. 00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:07.440 We're recirculating, we get those bugs active, it destroys the organic matter, hopefully in a much quicker manner. 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:12.480 So back in 2005, excuse me, 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:17.640 when the leadership of the Solid Waste Department at that time came forward to the council, 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:22.880 they proposed and had approved the inaction of an ELR type system. 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:28.360 And the anticipated benefits of those, first of all, when you decay material, it compresses. 00:22:28.360 --> 00:22:36.000 They were trying to generate or acquire landfill space without expanding it via permits. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:41.960 So again, if you can get 20 or 30% of that space back in the first part of the operation, 00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:49.040 again, it's much less expensive for the city and its users. 00:22:49.040 --> 00:22:53.560 It produces methane, which potentially has a beneficial reuse. 00:22:53.560 --> 00:23:00.960 The goal when bioreactors and ELR systems were first inactive was potentially reducing liability. 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:05.200 One of the most expensive parts of operating a landfill is not in the landfill operation itself. 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:11.560 But once it's closed, we still have a 30 year obligation to maintain the cap, manage the liquids in it, 00:23:11.560 --> 00:23:14.600 look at the landfill gas and on and on and on. 00:23:14.600 --> 00:23:19.320 If we can produce all the landfill on the first years as opposed to the end years, 00:23:19.320 --> 00:23:25.240 potentially we can cut that 30 years down or theoretically we could cut that 30 years down to 20 years, 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:28.160 15 years and save a tremendous amount of money. 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:34.360 To date, neither the EPA nor the TCEQ have allowed us to take advantage of that regulatory relief. 00:23:34.360 --> 00:23:36.720 So that still hangs over our head. 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:41.040 So again, we're looking forward to some of those benefits. 00:23:41.040 --> 00:23:44.160 So again, how does the ELR system work? 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:50.880 You take landfill liquids off the bottom of the liner itself. 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:58.000 What it's done is it goes into the leachate plant, it's put into pipes where it's allowed to go back down through the garbage, 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:04.600 landfill gas wells, pull the gas back out of it and they take it either to a flare or some other additional benefit reuse. 00:24:04.600 --> 00:24:11.000 Again, it's a circular type system, but at the end of the day, the only thing in ELR system is a supercharger. 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:17.080 We're always going to maintain landfill gas wells, header pipes and some sort of end use, 00:24:17.080 --> 00:24:20.440 whether it be a flare or a beneficial reuse in the facility. 00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:24.840 So the question is, is our ELR working? 00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:27.480 Does it impact us the way that we want to? 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:32.440 Well, from an environmental risk standpoint, we're not seeing the reduction in the risk that we thought. 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:39.760 Again, the EPA, TCEQ have not enacted those regulations which allow us to cut that 30 years down to something else. 00:24:39.760 --> 00:24:48.840 Additionally, by producing more gas, we have the potential increase of landfill gas methane migration outside the landfill. 00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:57.120 Similarly, with as much liquid as we have in the landfill and it continues to recirculate, there's potential seats and outbreaks that occur. 00:24:57.120 --> 00:25:00.320 So there's additional effort that we have to put in to maintain that. 00:25:00.320 --> 00:25:05.320 From an enhanced landfill generation standpoint, we are seeing a moderate benefit on that. 00:25:05.320 --> 00:25:11.560 The landfill gas production is increasing, but the potential is not fully being utilized. 00:25:11.560 --> 00:25:17.880 Currently, our landfill gas equipment is at full operational capacity and it's taking about 64% of the gas that we have. 00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.080 The remainder of that gas that we're producing right now is flared. 00:25:21.080 --> 00:25:29.480 And you can see some emission comparisons over here related to the engine's operation versus what we're seeing in the flare. 00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:35.040 When we look at the incremental landfill settlement, we're going to say that that's marginally successful. 00:25:35.040 --> 00:25:41.640 In 27 and 2018, and again, we did not operate the ELR in 2017 and 2018 for a couple of reasons. 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:46.480 First of all, there was some improvements, repairs that needed to be made to the system. 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:51.160 But secondarily, and it was presented in the previous presentation, 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:56.720 the last five years have been extremely wet here in the state of Texas and our landfill has a lot of water in it. 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:03.520 And we really couldn't manage putting additional liquids and recirculating those liquids in the system, so we have not operated it. 00:26:03.520 --> 00:26:10.920 But if you look at the settlement that we realized in 27 and 2018, we only had about 15,000 cubic yards. 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:16.480 And again, cubic yardage and airspace, that is the key thing that we try to get in the landfill. 00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:20.920 >> What would we have previous years using it? 00:26:20.920 --> 00:26:23.400 Did we see any larger reductions? 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:24.240 >> No, we did not. 00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:25.520 >> No, no, no. >> I mean, it's basically consistent. 00:26:25.520 --> 00:26:26.560 >> So we're getting five days worth of- 00:26:26.560 --> 00:26:30.760 >> Yeah, basically we're getting five days, and this is a settlement that we probably would have seen anyway. 00:26:30.760 --> 00:26:35.800 So again, not significant impacts, and that's why we say it's marginally beneficial. 00:26:35.800 --> 00:26:41.280 I'm trying to separate out the two between what would have happened and what additional the ELR is having. 00:26:41.280 --> 00:26:44.920 We can't make that determination specifically. 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:49.320 And again, the liability reduction, there is no benefit at this point. 00:26:49.320 --> 00:26:51.480 >> And why did we think we were going to get that? 00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:57.320 The way I remember the rules by the EPA, they were never going to let you get out inside of 30 years. 00:26:57.320 --> 00:27:04.840 >> Well, the speculation was, again, this was enacted back in 2002, so we are a long way down the road. 00:27:04.840 --> 00:27:11.920 But in 2002, there was a program that was called Project Excel, which turned into the RDD program, 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:16.480 which basically allowed people to come forward and said, if we can meet these certain goals, 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:20.400 can we get regulatory relief at the back end, and if we can show that it works. 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:22.800 And that was the hope at that point in time. 00:27:22.800 --> 00:27:26.400 There's been several programs that have been amazingly successful. 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.720 Fortunately, this, at least as we're looking at it here, has not been one of those. 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:36.160 So again, EPA in the last 16 years have not taken the opportunity to even start to say, 00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:38.720 yeah, it looks like we're going to reduce that liability. 00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:41.040 So again, that's where we find ourselves today. 00:27:41.040 --> 00:27:49.360 Looking from a financial standpoint, we actually suspended our ELR operations in 2018. 00:27:49.360 --> 00:27:56.960 We are getting some revenue from our gas to energy DTE at about $155,000 a year. 00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:01.320 If we were to go back in and repair the ELR, bring it up to speed, 00:28:01.320 --> 00:28:05.080 operate it the way that, from a regulatory standpoint, needs to be operated, 00:28:05.080 --> 00:28:13.480 we would anticipate that we would actually cost us about $935,000 additional a year over what we're receiving in revenue. 00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:20.720 Now again, as we look at potentially transferring out of a gas to energy and into some other potential use, 00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:27.320 the revenue side will be fairly consistent within about $100,000 per recon to that end. 00:28:27.320 --> 00:28:33.040 So again, this is money that's not currently in our budget, and we're not budgeting it for it in this next year. 00:28:33.040 --> 00:28:38.440 And if it's something we want to continue with, we're going to have to go back in and create a supplemental package for that. 00:28:39.520 --> 00:28:48.800 Talking a little bit about our landfill gas to energy, DTE Biomass has a long-term agreement with the city of Denton and expires in 2024. 00:28:48.800 --> 00:28:53.280 They have the right to purchase, collect the gas, as well as to produce power and sell it to DME. 00:28:53.280 --> 00:29:02.720 They have one engine on site is currently running at capacity, and there's not enough gas to bring on a second engine. 00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:07.920 Even if there were to bring on a second engine, I'm not sure DME's appetite to purchase the power would be there. 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:15.000 Right now, it is the most expensive form of power in their portfolio, costing about five times as much as the renewables. 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:20.600 And it could be as close to a million dollars a year more in their portfolio if they were to bring on this additional energy. 00:29:20.600 --> 00:29:23.160 So again, that's questionable. 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:29.880 If you look at other energy alternatives that we could undertake at the end of 2024, there are a couple more out there. 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:32.680 It's not like we have 100 different options. 00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:34.840 There's only a handful of things to look at. 00:29:34.840 --> 00:29:41.280 And again, it goes back to either flaring, which again, there's no beneficial reuse on that, landfill gas to energy. 00:29:41.280 --> 00:29:48.760 Again, we could, by 2024, we might have enough energy just from the natural degradation to bring on an additional engine. 00:29:48.760 --> 00:29:57.480 But again, there's some, depending on future conditions, as well as the regulatory requirement in renewable energy credits and 00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:06.440 RENS and other things that are out there that are way above my understanding as far as the way the finances on this work may make it more expensive or less expensive. 00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:12.520 From a pipeline quality gas standpoint, we can actually take this gas, we can condense it down. 00:30:12.520 --> 00:30:16.240 Right now, landfill gas is about 50% methane, 50% other stuff. 00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:24.400 To put it in a pipeline, you basically need to strip out that other stuff, make it right at 100% methane, be able to put it into a high pressure gas line. 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:32.280 It could service our fleet, our CNG fleet out there, it could go to homes to heat water and showers and things of that nature. 00:30:32.280 --> 00:30:35.680 But again, that would require additional gas production. 00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:40.160 We don't have enough minimum standpoint to even consider one of these. 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:44.840 And from an emissions standpoint, there's pros and cons in each of these. 00:30:44.840 --> 00:30:51.040 We've actually looked at project comparison based on about 1,000 standard cubic feet a minute. 00:30:51.040 --> 00:30:55.800 And this is what we're seeing from a NOC, CO, and VOC standpoint between the three. 00:30:55.800 --> 00:31:01.760 Again, our landfill gas to energy is probably our most inefficient from an environmental standpoint. 00:31:01.760 --> 00:31:06.520 But again, it gives us probably some of the most immediate use of the gas that we can see. 00:31:06.520 --> 00:31:13.120 To that end, and based on our study and SES's help with this, 00:31:13.120 --> 00:31:17.640 the primary objectives over the past 12 years have not been realized. 00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:23.760 And based on the study and the potential cost in the future, we would recommend discontinuing the ELR at this time. 00:31:23.760 --> 00:31:29.060 However, we would continue to look at other options to beneficially reuse 00:31:29.060 --> 00:31:35.360 the landfill gas that's currently being produced at the landfill. 00:31:35.360 --> 00:31:40.480 Working with DTE trying to bring on potential energy greater and 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:47.560 also get us the right back to use some of that excess that we're currently flaring to use in alternative measures in the short term. 00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:51.560 So with that, I appreciate your time this morning. 00:31:51.560 --> 00:31:54.720 We'll be able to respond to any questions or discussion that you might have. 00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:56.600 >> Questions? 00:31:56.600 --> 00:32:05.480 >> You say the program, I guess initially started in 2002? 00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:08.760 >> 2002 is when the concept was thrown out there. 00:32:08.760 --> 00:32:13.120 City of Denton actually, I think, started undertaking it about 2005. 00:32:13.120 --> 00:32:19.720 >> Okay, honestly the presentation kind of paints it as a disastrous project, frankly. 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:22.200 Seems like that's kind of what you're saying. 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:26.040 How come it took us 17 years to figure it out? 00:32:26.040 --> 00:32:30.880 >> That's a really good question, one that I'm not ready to answer at this point. 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:33.040 I'm relatively new to the city of Denton. 00:32:33.040 --> 00:32:38.040 I'm looking at this fresh, with a fresh set of eyes, just like everybody else. 00:32:38.040 --> 00:32:40.440 Ethan might be able to respond to that just a little bit better. 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.920 I guess prices were a heck of a lot higher. 00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:46.200 >> Thanks for that introduction, Mayor. 00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:46.880 >> You're welcome. 00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:52.720 >> I think probably the best way we can answer that is, as you all are aware and 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:55.840 as Brian alluded to, we brought Blue Ridge consultants in last year. 00:32:55.840 --> 00:32:59.800 Because this isn't the only project or program we've been dealing with like this. 00:32:59.800 --> 00:33:02.680 And so they kind of gave us the 30,000 foot view. 00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:05.080 If you'll rewind to about June last year, 00:33:05.080 --> 00:33:09.200 it was their recommendation to pull the plug on this program then. 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:14.200 Like Brian said, we are in a climate where we get our fair share of rainfall. 00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:18.320 And in a lot of cases, businesses or landfills will take this on, 00:33:18.320 --> 00:33:21.400 because they're having to transport their wastewater a long way. 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.200 And there's heightened risk with that, heightened cost. 00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:27.320 Fortunately for us, our wastewater treatment facility is right next door. 00:33:27.320 --> 00:33:32.400 And so I think when you look back at what was contemplated in 2005, 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.920 there were a number of aspirational goals that were set out. 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:40.720 I think to answer your question, Mr. Carroll, we should have been more closely 00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:44.880 monitoring this each year to see, is it having the desired impact? 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:46.360 What's our settlement looking like? 00:33:46.360 --> 00:33:49.760 Are we making beneficial use of all the gas? 00:33:49.760 --> 00:33:53.440 To me, I think the real kicker on this is once you start hitting that point to where 00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:57.720 we're no longer beneficially reusing the gas, we're having to flare excess. 00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:01.200 That should have been the red alert that says we need to turn this thing off because 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:03.360 we're making more gas than we can use. 00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:09.000 And that was really our decision about January 2017 was cut the gas off or 00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:13.720 cut the recirculation off and let's try to get that gas curve down to a controllable level. 00:34:13.720 --> 00:34:16.760 So it's really what you have up here in terms of recommendations. 00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:20.920 When we talk about the ELR, by all intents and purposes, 00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:23.800 we haven't operated it for the better part of two years. 00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:27.080 So I think the real decision before the board and the council tomorrow is gonna be, 00:34:27.080 --> 00:34:32.720 do you want to turn this back on and try to get gas to a level that we could maybe 00:34:32.720 --> 00:34:35.920 try to reach one of these other facilities? 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:40.520 Staff's position is, that's not a great idea because again, it's speculative. 00:34:40.520 --> 00:34:41.960 You'd need to take on extra waste. 00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:44.120 You'd need to add extra water into it. 00:34:44.120 --> 00:34:47.040 And as you know, that's gonna generate more gas. 00:34:47.040 --> 00:34:50.600 And so we'll flare more before we're able to hit one of those other facilities. 00:34:50.600 --> 00:34:51.680 Just the reality of it. 00:34:51.680 --> 00:34:54.120 So I hope that helps that kind of answer the question. 00:34:54.120 --> 00:34:54.920 >> Sure, sure, sure. 00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:57.040 >> And I know back then that was all the rage. 00:34:57.040 --> 00:35:02.240 All the landfills were doing it, including the landfill that I worked with back then. 00:35:02.240 --> 00:35:07.240 >> We're not the only ones re-evaluating this and I forget who said it. 00:35:07.240 --> 00:35:12.320 But the gas prices a few years ago, this looked like a very sweet deal. 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:17.440 >> And renewable energy, everybody thought it was a great renewable energy. 00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:18.360 >> Sure. 00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:21.440 >> Well, let me also add too that Ethan and 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:28.280 his team, they've been working in that operation since what, early 2017. 00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:32.560 So for the last two years, they're going through a process of reviewing programs that 00:35:32.560 --> 00:35:37.240 may have been established in the past and going through it with a level of analysis 00:35:37.240 --> 00:35:39.800 to bring to you all and the council to determine whether or 00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:41.600 not we want to continue these programs. 00:35:41.600 --> 00:35:44.660 >> I guess a level of analysis that we weren't using before. 00:35:44.660 --> 00:35:45.880 >> That's correct. 00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:47.000 >> Okay, okay. 00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:49.640 I do have one more question that you're probably gonna want to stay with. 00:35:49.640 --> 00:35:51.440 >> Okay. 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:54.760 >> On slide eight, there's a financial overview. 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:58.040 This is kind of in the same vein as the last question. 00:35:58.040 --> 00:36:00.320 Is this a single year? 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:03.840 It says annual, which suggests to me a single year. 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.800 >> Yeah, and what we've done, so the system design cost is actually about $100,000. 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:10.000 So we've broken that out over about a ten year period, but 00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:11.880 the remainder of those costs are annual. 00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:16.000 Now, looking in the rear view mirror, were we expending this level every year? 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:17.040 The answer is no. 00:36:17.040 --> 00:36:21.400 And I think Kevin and David, their work has basically said, 00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:23.560 they've come through a couple of times over the last few years and 00:36:23.560 --> 00:36:26.920 said you really need to reinvest in this system if you're going to get the maximum 00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:28.280 benefit out of it. 00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:32.040 I think we've been somewhat hit or miss in terms of funding and 00:36:32.040 --> 00:36:34.280 operational improvements over the last few years. 00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:40.080 I think the question might be is, if we operated this thing efficiently, 00:36:40.080 --> 00:36:42.400 would we be seeing a better outcome? 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:45.320 Financially, I think the answer to that's no. 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:50.520 So I think the big limiter right now on gassed energy revenue is we have one engine. 00:36:50.520 --> 00:36:53.680 So to get to the next engine, we've got to increase gas output. 00:36:53.680 --> 00:36:58.680 So you may be adding another $300,000 or another $155,000. 00:36:58.680 --> 00:37:02.200 A high BTU facility may get you a little bit more revenue than that, but 00:37:02.200 --> 00:37:05.360 not enough to offset the additional cost of the ELR. 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:10.400 To Brian's point earlier, I think the idea is we will generate gas as we move along. 00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:13.840 The more waste that goes into that facility, we'll be adding gas wells and 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:15.040 pulling that off. 00:37:15.040 --> 00:37:19.320 We may be able to reach one of those more beneficial facilities like high BTU just 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:21.840 naturally without having to operate the ELR. 00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:23.520 >> But that may be years down the road. 00:37:23.520 --> 00:37:25.360 >> That may be years down the road, correct. 00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:29.920 And we mentioned earlier some alternative uses for the gases. 00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:32.680 Are there some facilities we could heat with this if we clean it up? 00:37:32.680 --> 00:37:36.560 Are there some other things that we can do that doesn't require a huge capital 00:37:36.560 --> 00:37:41.080 investment while still trying to get some beneficial use out of this? 00:37:41.080 --> 00:37:44.120 >> So just to more to my point, we're not, 00:37:44.120 --> 00:37:48.520 we haven't been losing that kind of money over the last 17 years. 00:37:48.520 --> 00:37:49.840 >> We've been losing an amount of money. 00:37:49.840 --> 00:37:54.160 I think just being completely candid with the board, it would be very difficult for 00:37:54.160 --> 00:37:58.520 us to break out and say this was expended toward the ELR versus something else. 00:37:58.520 --> 00:38:01.920 I think our capital plan was in a state that it would be very hard for 00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:04.920 me to tell you exactly what was spent on this. 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.560 >> So go back to slide eight then. 00:38:08.560 --> 00:38:10.080 I want to make sure I understand this. 00:38:10.080 --> 00:38:14.320 So we weren't, the system construction, 00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:17.060 is that like the depreciation of the system? 00:38:17.060 --> 00:38:19.840 >> No, it's what we'd have to invest. 00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:21.360 >> Right. >> All right. 00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:22.400 >> Horizontal, lateral lines. 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.800 >> These are more move forward numbers basically with the ELR. 00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:26.560 >> Yes. 00:38:26.560 --> 00:38:29.960 >> Question, I'm going to give you, go ahead, you finish yours. 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:35.480 >> But we were spending the $120,000, the $85,000. 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:41.760 All of those costs are true annual costs to operate the ELR. 00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:44.120 >> No, I think we weren't expending all of those either. 00:38:44.120 --> 00:38:47.040 >> Okay. >> And so I think what SCS has given us 00:38:47.040 --> 00:38:50.900 is if you really want to do this operation efficiently, you want to do it right, 00:38:50.900 --> 00:38:53.440 this is the level of investment that you're probably looking at. 00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:55.520 I think we were falling short of this. 00:38:55.520 --> 00:38:57.480 >> Okay. >> And so essentially, 00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:02.600 just kind of as an example, you install a line in there to recirculate the leachate 00:39:02.600 --> 00:39:06.360 in the waste, eventually that waste is going to, around that line, 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:10.720 is going to start to degrade such that that water, that leachate has nowhere to move. 00:39:10.720 --> 00:39:15.360 And so you are constantly having to refresh and update your system. 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:18.360 Because as you take on new waste, you're installing new lines. 00:39:18.360 --> 00:39:20.800 And so it's a pretty heavy investment. 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:22.960 >> So one is a projection and one. 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:25.640 >> One is what we're doing right now, that non-ELR. 00:39:25.640 --> 00:39:28.480 I think that's exactly what we're spending today. 00:39:28.480 --> 00:39:32.800 >> I think also going back to Mr. Cheek's statement earlier. 00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:39.920 When this was first visualized, gas was at what, 1250 and MMFCF. 00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:43.680 I think spot market right now is slightly above 265. 00:39:43.680 --> 00:39:47.440 Again, that $10 difference in there, I mean, when this was proposed, 00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:50.520 is to be cost neutral because of all the gas sales and everything else. 00:39:50.520 --> 00:39:55.440 And when the bottom drops out of the gas market, those savings have to come from 00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:01.680 somewhere, so again, that's where we see the 935,000 estimated potential loss. 00:40:01.680 --> 00:40:07.320 >> Okay, my question is along the same lines as what you were asking about as well. 00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:12.000 Because those, that $600,000 and several of the other items, 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:14.520 what's the depreciated value of those capital investments? 00:40:14.520 --> 00:40:17.920 I mean, what's the depreciated life of those capital investments? 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:24.160 >> A lot of it depends on what the piece is involved that we're doing. 00:40:24.160 --> 00:40:27.840 Over the life of this, as Ethan was saying, sometimes waste gets so 00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:33.920 tightly packed around the leachate lines that the leachate can't flow through them. 00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:36.920 Sometimes, I mean, landfills get warm. 00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:40.360 Because basically it's a big compost pile for lack of anything else. 00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:43.280 But depending on how they were installed, they could basically flatten. 00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:46.160 So again, could be anywhere from five years to 25 years, 00:40:46.160 --> 00:40:48.520 depending on the component that's put in. 00:40:48.520 --> 00:40:51.640 But again, you continue to evaluate, you continue to upgrade, 00:40:51.640 --> 00:40:55.280 you continue to ensure that the- >> Maintain. 00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:59.880 >> Well, you maintain, but you have to ensure that the infrastructure is viable. 00:40:59.880 --> 00:41:04.360 Because the minute one piece stops working, you lose all that efficiency. 00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:06.120 You gotta keep it operational. 00:41:06.120 --> 00:41:10.600 >> Okay, well, I think I'm just trying to make sure I understand that the ELR columnar's, 00:41:10.600 --> 00:41:14.240 you're not spending $600,000 a year on system construction, correct? 00:41:14.240 --> 00:41:14.880 >> No, you would be. 00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:15.600 >> You would be. 00:41:15.600 --> 00:41:20.520 >> Because it's enhancing additional material that has gone to waste, but it's also- 00:41:20.520 --> 00:41:21.840 >> I thought maybe I was looking at that incorrectly. 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:23.960 >> You were hoping that wasn't the number. 00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:25.280 >> Yeah, that is a very big number. 00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:29.360 But again, it's either retrofitting stuff that needs to be repaired or 00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:33.000 installing new systems that have to go into, okay. 00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:39.040 >> I have one question, too, the environmental impact of not collecting the methane gas. 00:41:39.040 --> 00:41:40.320 Is that going to be negative? 00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:42.440 Is it going to be, what is it? 00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:48.080 >> I mean, right now, regulatorily, we are required to collect this and manage that. 00:41:48.080 --> 00:41:53.240 So again, we're going to do that anyway, outside of whether we operate an ELR or not. 00:41:53.240 --> 00:41:56.120 >> Okay. >> So again, we've got to separate those two questions. 00:41:56.120 --> 00:41:56.840 >> Okay. 00:41:56.840 --> 00:42:02.760 >> The issue is, do we try to supercharge it, produce more, but not be able to use it beneficially? 00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:07.080 Or do we let the landfill work like it's going to, and 00:42:07.080 --> 00:42:12.160 manage that material as beneficial as we can in the time that's present. 00:42:12.160 --> 00:42:16.120 >> Okay, so I want to go back, I'm piggybacking on that one. 00:42:16.120 --> 00:42:25.040 On slide six, you're talking about emissions comparison between the engine and the flaring. 00:42:25.040 --> 00:42:25.920 >> Correct. 00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:31.800 >> So as we move forward, we're always going to also incorporate that as a part of the analysis, right? 00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:37.080 >> Correct, we will always be looking at emissions in our cost-benefit analysis. 00:42:37.080 --> 00:42:40.320 Because again, there's a cost standpoint, there's an environmental standpoint. 00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:45.000 But at some point in time, you've got that Venn diagram where the two pieces cross, and that's what we're looking at here. 00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:52.480 At a minimum, we will always flare, which again, according to this chart, is our least emissions as a result of it. 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:59.240 But at some point in time, rather than just burn it, we want to try to have, whether it's heat, electricity, or something else coming from it. 00:42:59.240 --> 00:43:02.240 And we want to try to gain some of that impact. 00:43:02.240 --> 00:43:07.920 >> Okay, I have a couple more things, I have a couple more things. 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.120 >> Go ahead. 00:43:10.120 --> 00:43:15.160 >> It's kind of back to that page eight, the financial overview. 00:43:15.160 --> 00:43:22.520 And you mentioned that if we move forward, that some of the changes that we would make, 00:43:22.520 --> 00:43:32.200 perhaps in the monitoring and record keeping, we might have to enhance those due to regulations. 00:43:32.200 --> 00:43:32.800 >> Correct. 00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:38.200 >> Okay, so up to operating it up to January 2018, 00:43:38.200 --> 00:43:44.560 have we exposed ourselves to any regulation liability by not operating it clearly, properly? 00:43:44.560 --> 00:43:48.920 >> No, no, we currently, given the amount of gas that we're producing, 00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:52.960 given the amount of regulatory requirements that are currently on us, 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:58.880 we are compliant with all the aspects of TCEQ and the EPA. 00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.120 So we are compliant, we are doing what we have to do. 00:44:01.120 --> 00:44:11.040 But as gas increases, that thus enhances also our regulatory and the effort that we have to expend to maintain that compliance. 00:44:11.040 --> 00:44:15.800 >> Okay, and this really isn't an ELR question, it's kind of a landfill regulation question. 00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:20.000 We have another landfill east of town that we used to use a long time ago. 00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:25.840 Last we heard about it, it had a cap that was collapsing, and we were supposed to come in and fix the cap. 00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:29.240 And I was wondering if somebody could tell us how that landfill is doing right now. 00:44:29.240 --> 00:44:36.160 >> Well, we continue to monitor it, but we are currently working on a couple of presentations to bring back to you in July. 00:44:36.160 --> 00:44:38.400 So it's not off our radar, we continue to look at that. 00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:39.240 >> Thank you, thank you. 00:44:39.240 --> 00:44:41.160 Okay, I'm done. 00:44:41.160 --> 00:44:43.960 >> Any other questions? 00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:44.440 All right. 00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:52.000 >> Okay, so I guess what we're seeking from you today is just direction that we go ahead and discontinue the operation of the ELR. 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:58.480 >> Yeah, I don't see any reason why you should spend that kind of money to keep doing something that nobody has much faith in. 00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:02.520 >> All right, thank you very much for your time today. 00:45:02.520 --> 00:45:06.000 >> I think it was another one of those feel good plans. 00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.120 >> It's worth a shot. 00:45:08.120 --> 00:45:11.400 >> All right, the next item will be the consent agenda. 00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:18.600 We have items A through H. 00:45:18.600 --> 00:45:23.760 Does any board member wish to pull an item for additional consideration? 00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:29.480 All right, do we have a motion to approve A through H? 00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:32.320 >> So moved. 00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:33.720 >> And a second? 00:45:33.720 --> 00:45:34.760 >> Second. 00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:36.360 >> All in favor say aye. 00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:38.280 >> Aye. >> Opposed? 00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:38.880 Carries. 00:45:41.560 --> 00:45:45.520 >> Okay, the next item, that's H. 00:45:45.520 --> 00:45:51.040 Consider the approval of the public utilities board meeting minutes of March 25th. 00:45:51.040 --> 00:45:52.800 Were there any changes or corrections? 00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:59.560 Hearing none, we'll approve as circulated. 00:45:59.560 --> 00:46:07.640 And then item B, consider recommending adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton authorizing the city manager 00:46:07.640 --> 00:46:14.760 to designate to execute confidentiality and nondisclosure agreement between the city and Helena Wind. 00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:18.720 >> Good morning, George Morrow, general manager of DMA. 00:46:18.720 --> 00:46:24.080 As you probably recall from our prior discussions, we issued some RFPs for 00:46:24.080 --> 00:46:31.000 renewable power and we're engaging some of the respondents in more detailed discussions. 00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:36.440 And the two nondisclosure agreements and confidentiality agreements you have before you today 00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:41.160 are necessary for those parties to be willing to share more information with us. 00:46:41.160 --> 00:46:45.560 So we're asking for your recommendation on these two items. 00:46:45.560 --> 00:46:55.120 >> I'm sorry, he was whispering to me. 00:46:55.120 --> 00:47:02.120 >> In summary, we're asking for your recommendation on these two items. 00:47:02.120 --> 00:47:07.680 We expect to move forward to execute the two nondisclosure confidentiality agreements that 00:47:07.680 --> 00:47:14.800 allows us to get further down the road with a couple of these entities that have responded to our RFP. 00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.400 >> Have other companies asked us to do this before? 00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:20.340 >> It's very typical, so we have quite a few of these. 00:47:20.340 --> 00:47:24.840 >> And I guess I don't remember this particular thing coming before us before like this. 00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:26.440 >> Yeah, yeah. 00:47:26.440 --> 00:47:28.520 >> The nondisclosure component? 00:47:28.520 --> 00:47:31.680 >> Yeah, we've brought quite a few of them for different circumstances. 00:47:31.680 --> 00:47:34.440 Some of them are for their RFPs and some. 00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:40.320 We do try to put a paragraph or so in our RFPs that some of the respondents have been comfortable with. 00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:42.640 Others want more detail. 00:47:42.640 --> 00:47:45.520 We have maybe a paragraph, they prefer six or eight pages. 00:47:45.520 --> 00:47:50.560 So these are a couple of the six or eight page type entities. 00:47:50.560 --> 00:47:53.560 >> Okay, so you need a motion to approve. 00:47:53.560 --> 00:47:54.960 >> Motion to approve would be wonderful. 00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:57.560 >> I recommend approval. 00:47:57.560 --> 00:47:58.920 >> And a second? 00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:00.000 >> Second. 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:01.600 >> All in favor say aye. 00:48:01.600 --> 00:48:02.400 >> Aye. 00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:03.400 >> Opposed? 00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:04.040 >> Thank you very much. 00:48:04.040 --> 00:48:04.560 >> Thank you. 00:48:04.560 --> 00:48:09.040 >> And we're having a changing of the guard. 00:48:09.040 --> 00:48:16.080 We're on to the ACM update. 00:48:16.080 --> 00:48:22.880 >> Change of the guard and on the spot. 00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:24.040 >> Yeah, and on the spot. 00:48:24.040 --> 00:48:28.720 >> Good morning board. 00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:34.760 We just have a few items to go over on the ACM updates. 00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:39.200 We basically have the matrix. 00:48:39.200 --> 00:48:48.480 And as noted last time, we completed the report on what we're paying for energy, etc, item number two. 00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:55.200 We still have to schedule a PUB board meeting and times associated with that meeting, and we'll work on getting that scheduled. 00:48:55.200 --> 00:48:58.600 Hopefully we can get that on the next meeting agenda. 00:48:58.600 --> 00:49:03.600 The future public utility board agenda items have been provided to you. 00:49:03.600 --> 00:49:05.520 We're generally on track with those. 00:49:05.520 --> 00:49:16.160 On May 6th, we're going to possibly just take the electric budget presentation to you and then on May 20, follow up with water and wastewater. 00:49:16.160 --> 00:49:22.280 I'm going to circle back with finance and get that verified, but that's what we currently have scheduled on the financial calendar. 00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:24.320 And that is pretty much all I have. 00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:34.360 >> All right, so Mr. Coat, do I do concluding items before we close the meeting, because we're not going to re-adjourn? 00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:36.000 >> Yeah, I'll do it. 00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:40.560 >> Okay, okay, all right, so concluding items. 00:49:40.560 --> 00:49:45.400 Are there any items that a board member would like to be brought forward in a future board meeting? 00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:53.880 All right, so do we adjourn, Larry? 00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:55.880 I'm sorry. 00:49:55.880 --> 00:49:57.280 >> You're just going to close the regular meeting. 00:49:57.280 --> 00:49:59.320 >> We're going to close the regular meeting, okay. 00:49:59.320 --> 00:50:02.000 >> You already closed, come out and close it. 00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:09.120 >> Okay, all right, so now we'll go into closed, and bear with me, I'm supposed to read this whole item. 00:50:09.120 --> 00:50:16.040 We're going to discuss, deliberate, and receive information from staff and provide staff with direction 00:50:16.040 --> 00:50:21.720 pertaining to the potential acquisition of real property interest generally located in one. 00:50:21.720 --> 00:50:31.400 The first 800 block of Eagle Drive, two, Avenue H between West Hickory Street and West Prairie Street. 00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:36.960 Three, West Prairie Street between South Bonnie Bray Street and North Texas Boulevard. 00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:41.880 Four, Stella Street between South Bonnie Bray Street and North Texas Boulevard. 00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:46.960 Five, North Texas Boulevard between Stella Street and Eagle Boulevard. 00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:51.000 Six, Maple Street between South Locust and Avenue C. 00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:56.600 Seven, Fannin Street between S Avenue B and Bernard Street. 00:50:56.600 --> 00:51:00.120 Eight, South Avenue B from Maple Street to Underwood Street. 00:51:00.120 --> 00:51:07.760 Nine, Bernard Street between Eagle Boulevard and Collins Street. 00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:11.560 Ten, Carroll Boulevard between Eagle Drive and West Collins Street. 00:51:11.560 --> 00:51:15.520 11, West Collins Street between S Avenue A and Carroll Boulevard. 00:51:15.520 --> 00:51:20.600 11, Myrtle Street between Fort Worth Drive and Maple Street. 00:51:20.600 --> 00:51:24.440 13, Pierce Street between Maple Street and Stroud Street. 00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:30.680 14, Eagle Drive between South Locust Street and Avenue C. 00:51:30.680 --> 00:51:37.680 15, Fort Worth Drive between West Collins Street and Maple Avenue. 00:51:37.680 --> 00:51:40.760 All in the city of Denton, Denton County, Texas. 00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:46.440 Consultation with the city's attorneys regarding legal issues associated with the potential acquisition or 00:51:46.440 --> 00:51:53.000 condemnation of real property interest described above or a public discussion of these legal matters could conflict. 00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:58.760 With the duty of the city's attorneys to the city of Denton and Denton City Council under Texas. 00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:05.840 Disciplinary rules of professional conduct of the state of bar of Texas would jeopardize the city's legal position. 00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:09.560 In any administrative proceedings or potential litigation. 00:52:09.560 --> 00:52:13.400 This pertains to electric distribution and transmission lines in Eagle Station.