1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,640 >> It's 9 o'clock, we'll call the Public Utilities Board of April 8th, 2019 to order. 2 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,400 We do have a quorum. 3 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:23,040 I'm going to suggest we move the closed meeting to the end of the meeting for efficiency. 4 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:28,000 So the first item on the agenda is to receive a report and hold a discussion and 5 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:34,800 give staff direction regarding the 2019 Water Conservation Plan and Drought Contingency Plan. 6 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,160 >> Good morning, everybody. 7 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:43,880 The presentation today was previously provided to council last Tuesday due to some scheduling changes 8 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:50,040 to the last minute for their work session items, so you'll get to see what they saw last week. 9 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:55,320 And at that time, the council didn't make any formal changes or recommendations to change the plan. 10 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:00,200 But please consider it and we'll take all feedback you've got for us. 11 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,140 And with that, I think there's also a consent agenda item for 12 00:01:04,140 --> 00:01:07,680 the ordinance to adopt the Water Conservation and 13 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,560 Drought Contingency Plan if you choose to accept that today. 14 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,280 With that in mind, I'll go ahead and introduce Tyler Dawson, 15 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,360 our Field Services Technical Manager, to run through the presentation. 16 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:35,680 >> Good morning, my name is Tyler Dawson. 17 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:43,480 As Frank introduced me, I'm a Field Services Tech Manager coming to discuss Water Conservation and Drought Contingency Plan. 18 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,520 Again, we will have an ordinance. 19 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:51,080 We have an ordinance to approve this item that we'll request approval on at the end of this presentation for consent agenda. 20 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,720 This is a document that's about 19 years in the making. 21 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:04,440 This was first introduced in its current form in the year 2000 under TCEQ, Texas Commission on Environmental Quality Rules. 22 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:11,160 It is advised in framework published by the Texas Water Development Board. 23 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,280 We've revised this over the years. 24 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,840 We have a required five year update at this point. 25 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:22,320 So we've gone through and we've kind of scoured the plan, looked to see what we're doing well, what we may need to do differently or do better. 26 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,240 This is the sixth iteration of that plan. 27 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,880 We did go to hold a public meeting on March 14th to request public feedback on this. 28 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,960 And as Frank mentioned, we went to council yesterday, I'm sorry, last week, on Tuesday. 29 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,960 The plan consists of two primary components. 30 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:44,560 The Water Conservation Plan is our approach to long term water resource management. 31 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:50,200 We all know Texas is growing, DFW Denton is growing. 32 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,880 We want to make sure we have water resources in the future. 33 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,280 And the Water Conservation Plan is the way we try to manage our resources better. 34 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:03,120 The Drought Contingency Plan only comes into play in times of drought or emergency. 35 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,000 So it's something we don't do every day. 36 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:12,600 It's plans we make for the future, just in case that's something that's needed for an emergency or to mitigate very short term drought. 37 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:22,760 To start with the Water Conservation Plan, I've given you a look at how we've done, how the city has done on water conservation since the year 2000. 38 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:28,040 We measure our effectiveness on a gallons per capita per day, five year rolling average. 39 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,800 So every five years we'll roll in the data, see what it looks like. 40 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:38,800 You can see we've come down from about 189 in the year 2000 down to 140 in the current five year average. 41 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:44,840 This is all due to basically public response to conservation efforts, 42 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:49,400 a conservation message, and items in the conservation plan. 43 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,800 The blue line you see here is our goal of 152 gallons per capita per day. 44 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,880 You will, I'm sure, notice that the orange line has dipped below our goal. 45 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,320 That's, one, it's a great thing. 46 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:06,880 It shows that our community has responded very well to any conservation messages we've put out. 47 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,040 But also, we've had five years that have been very rainy. 48 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:21,240 If you remember, the drought ran from about 2010 to 2014, broke in 2014, lakes flooded, Trinity River flooded in 2015, and we've continued to have some mild and rainy summers. 49 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:27,800 So that's really suppressed water use in the last five years, driven this number down, and so we don't think that's long term sustainable. 50 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:33,920 We feel a goal of 152 GPCD is long term sustainable with average weather for the area. 51 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:44,160 The conservation plan itself is built around BMPs, or Best Management Practices, published by the Water Development Board. 52 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:53,120 Every utility that publishes a conservation plan looks through these BMPs and chooses the ones that are a best fit for that utility. 53 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:54,600 So we've picked several. 54 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,400 Here's a long list of components within our plan. 55 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:03,760 Most of these have been in the plan for a decade or more and are part of the reason for our success so far. 56 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,360 Here on the next slide, I'll talk through some of the changes. 57 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:12,280 But the things we've done that are successful range anywhere from simply metering and accurately meeting our customer connections for 58 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:18,200 accountability, to finding and repairing leaks, to offering customer water audits. 59 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,240 If somebody's not sure if they're using water efficiently, we offer a service for that. 60 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,400 These are the five changes to the plans. 61 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,520 You can see some are checked as simply updates. 62 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,640 These are very minor and there are a couple of additions. 63 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:39,520 Section 3.3 in the plan deals with metering of water at the two water treatment plants. 64 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:46,160 We have one water treatment plant on Spencer Road that pulls from Lake Louisville, and one at Ray Roberts that pulls from the other side of the dam. 65 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,600 Raw water is water that's pulled from the lake, untreated water. 66 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,360 We want to measure what we take from the lake, and then treated water is what we push out to the system. 67 00:05:55,360 --> 00:06:02,160 The reason this becomes so important is it's the biggest piece in the puzzle to understanding where our water is used. 68 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,040 We had some concerns about the accuracy of these meters over the last two years. 69 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:12,360 We've actually replaced the two meters at the Ray Roberts plant last year in May and December. 70 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:17,560 And we're looking to replace the two meters at the Lake Louisville plant on Spencer Road in 2020. 71 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:22,920 That'll improve our ability to understand our water use and continue to put effective measures in place. 72 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:29,680 Section 3.5 deals with our water loss audit, which is an annual program. 73 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:35,520 You'll actually hear a report from me here in a couple of weeks about our 2018 water loss audit. 74 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,600 The plan was updated to be consistent with modern water audit language. 75 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,680 We've kind of evolved at the state level how we do the audit. 76 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,400 And we want to make sure we're consistent with that in our conservation plan that that continues. 77 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:54,040 Section 3.6 deals with outreach, public education information. 78 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,800 The orange part is what we've added, partnership with nonprofits. 79 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,800 Now, this is not something that we've put in the plan because we want to do it. 80 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,640 We actually put it in the plan because we're already doing it. 81 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,200 We update this plan every five years. 82 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:10,360 And since the last time we revised the plan, these partnerships have been put in place, 83 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:17,120 including master gardeners and other gardening, irrigation, environmentally focused groups. 84 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,040 So you'll see those come into play with the classes we offer. 85 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:27,160 Some of the outreach programs are actually driven by nonprofits and we join with them on those. 86 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,120 So we wanted to codify that into the plan. 87 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,400 We feel that's a successful addition and so we want to continue. 88 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:37,840 Section 3.7 is our non-promotional rate structure. 89 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,600 You may have also heard this is our declining block rate structure, deals with water irrigation. 90 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:48,440 So for residential customers in the summer, over 15,000 gallons a month, 91 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,960 you see the price of water increase for an individual residential user. 92 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:59,120 We have updated the rates in the plan to show what we're currently charging for those services. 93 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,600 And it's something that's a very critical component to the water conservation plan 94 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:09,760 because it helps residential customers that using an excess of water at your home. 95 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,560 It can be a cost to everybody. 96 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,880 So it's an accountability factor that helps everybody get on board with conservation. 97 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:21,760 Section 5.6, park athletic field and golf course conservation. 98 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,560 We have added golf course conservation to the plan. 99 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,080 We have focused on park and athletic field already. 100 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:29,840 We've decided to expand that. 101 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,920 The reason this is in the plan is because those are very large landscaped areas. 102 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,960 So any impact you can make, any changes you can make to those could have very large savings. 103 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,080 We've already worked with our parks department on park and athletic field. 104 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,480 And we want to continue offering help to any golf course managers or 105 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,320 owners to try to find ways to use water efficiently. 106 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,360 We don't want to change the use of their property. 107 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,280 We want to make sure that landscaped property is put to the use that it was intended. 108 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,120 But we want to improve the water use at those places if possible. 109 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:08,600 And to change gears into the drought plan, the drought contingency plan. 110 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,280 Again, this is not a day-to-day program. 111 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,000 This is a plan that sits on the shelf and waits until a time when it's needed. 112 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,560 The plan can be enacted in three stages and increasing severity. 113 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:21,920 Starting with one, increasing up to three. 114 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,920 And it's triggered in three different ways. 115 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,840 You can see an A, B, and C triggering condition under each one of these. 116 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,880 Typically, we talk about a drought plan based on a type A trigger, 117 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,280 which is how much water is left in the lakes. 118 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:40,000 So for a stage one, if our lakes are 65% full or 35% depleted, 119 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,040 then we can enact the drought plan to put extra measures in place to start saving 120 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:44,920 water in the short term. 121 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,400 Stage two increases that to 50%. 122 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,520 In stage three, if the lakes get down to 35% of their capacity, 123 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,200 we would continue increasing those restrictions. 124 00:09:54,200 --> 00:10:01,000 You can see that 35% marked in orange, that has changed from 30%. 125 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,560 We felt that was not significant enough. 126 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:07,200 We felt it was too much risk to wait until 30% full and 127 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,520 decided to up that standard just a little bit. 128 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,160 Dallas has done the same. 129 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,520 As you're probably aware, we share rights in our two lakes with Dallas, so 130 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,480 we try to partner with them and try to keep our plans consistent. 131 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:24,480 A type B condition deals with how much water is needed by our customers. 132 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:30,240 We have the ability to treat and pump out about 49 million gallons per day. 133 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,080 So far, we have not come close to that, but we're looking into the future and 134 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,520 trying to see when we might get to the point when that might become an issue, 135 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,640 that the community would need more water than this. 136 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,480 So we have a type B condition. 137 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,000 If we exceed 85% of our delivery capacity for four days, 138 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,120 we go to next stage one, 90% for three days at stage two and 139 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,760 95% for two days at stage three. 140 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:58,960 A type C is kind of an all other, it's a catch all situation and 141 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,400 basically discusses emergencies. 142 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,840 We have over 600 miles of water main in the city. 143 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:11,120 We have two plants, two additional pump stations, six water storage tanks. 144 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,800 We do our best to maintain these, but if the worst happens and 145 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,120 the wrong part fails, then we have the ability to enact the drought plan as 146 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:18,840 a response to that. 147 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:24,440 Now this plan, as I said, has been in existence since the year 2000. 148 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,000 It has never been enacted in this form. 149 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:32,440 So far, we've been able to avoid ever having to use this plan to mitigate water 150 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,440 shortages, but it is there in case the need arises. 151 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:43,240 And when we enact these stages, kind of the headline is that under stage one, 152 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,360 we would ask all irrigation users, or we would require all irrigation users 153 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,080 to water two days per week or less. 154 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,800 Stage two would reduce that to one day a week per less and 155 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,320 stage three would prohibit irrigation. 156 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,480 There are some, you can see a few of the details here, more specific rules that 157 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,160 would come into play in stage two and three especially. 158 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,520 Again, this does increase with the severity of the circumstance that 159 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,640 require the drought plan to be triggered. 160 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,120 There are some other resources on our website. 161 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,240 I would encourage anybody who's interested to look through the sustainabledenton.com 162 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,360 or through the water utilities page on the city website for more information on 163 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:27,080 what we do to conserve water, to help the community have the water they need. 164 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,360 And at this time, I'll take any questions. 165 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,840 >> I had a question. 166 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:32,440 >> Yes, ma'am. 167 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,840 >> I was just, I was curious if gas drillers use city water? 168 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,320 >> They can be. 169 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,560 It's on a site-by-site basis, wherever the water is available for them. 170 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:44,280 They have the ability to ask for it. 171 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:45,480 >> Have they in the last year? 172 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,880 >> I'm hearing we don't believe so. 173 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:50,380 >> Okay. 174 00:12:50,380 --> 00:12:57,720 Where would they otherwise get their water? 175 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,720 >> It would depend on the location. 176 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,680 They have the ability to bring in water anywhere, but 177 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:06,440 they're obviously going to find whatever's most expedient for them. 178 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,640 >> And maybe shed a little bit more light on this. 179 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:17,680 There's several ways that a gas well can use water. 180 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:22,480 For example, if there's a surface pond for agricultural purposes, 181 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:23,920 they could actually use it there. 182 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,560 Oftentimes, they will either access an existing groundwater well or 183 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:30,280 drill one of their own to access the water. 184 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,560 Or they can get a meter from the meter shop and 185 00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:43,320 basically meter the water out through city usage through accessing basically a fire hydrant. 186 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:50,320 So they have definitely, as a industry, used water from the city before. 187 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:55,880 Here recently, we haven't had a lot of drilling and fracturing operations, and 188 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,920 so they haven't had a need to. 189 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:06,000 However, at the time that we had the most gas wells coming in to the city in any given year, 190 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,600 they only represented a couple of percent of our overall water use. 191 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,880 So it's a large volume, but percentage wise, compared to the city, not huge. 192 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,000 >> All right, thank you. 193 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,840 Other questions? 194 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,040 >> Yeah, I do. 195 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:29,280 Since this plan has been enacted, I remember a few times that some 196 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:38,200 drought plan water scheduling was enacted. 197 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,120 And I just was able to read how it's enforced. 198 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:48,160 I was wondering if you had any information about if the plans that we make 199 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:53,000 actually have the impact, actually reach those reduction goals. 200 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,720 When you ask people to not water or rinse off their pavement or 201 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,960 only water before six and after ten or the other way around. 202 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:03,600 Do you have any data that says that works? 203 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,120 >> We would have to research with other nearby communities. 204 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,840 I know there have been utilities in the area that have had to enact their drought plan 205 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,760 back in 2013, 2014, that time frame. 206 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:17,880 That's a question we could ask. 207 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,400 I don't know right now. 208 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,040 >> I remember it in 2014. 209 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,000 >> I just wonder, I mean, when you make a plan, when you set goals, 210 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,800 you have to have some kind of realistic expectation that you can actually meet 211 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,040 the goals that you're trying to hit, and I was just wondering if. 212 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,160 So you just kind of looked around and seen what other people done and 213 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:41,520 used our historic plan to come up with this plan, basically? 214 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,240 >> Those are big pieces of it, absolutely. 215 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,600 We do look to other cities and see what success they've had. 216 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,040 Again, we do try to team up with Dallas as well as we can. 217 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,920 They're pretty robust in their conservation program, so they're a pretty good guide for it. 218 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,160 >> Yeah, yeah, okay. 219 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:55,660 Thank you. 220 00:15:55,660 --> 00:15:57,880 >> Any questions? 221 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,840 All right, thank you. 222 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:05,440 The next item is, receive a report and hold a discussion and 223 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:10,400 give staff direction regarding Solid Waste Department's enhanced liquids recirculation program. 224 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:30,480 >> Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the board. 225 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:35,000 My name's Brian Burner, I am the Deputy Director of Solid Waste for the city of Denton. 226 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:40,800 I appreciate the opportunity to come today to talk about our enhanced liquids recirculation program. 227 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,040 With me here today, I have Ethan Conks, who is the Director of Solid Waste here at the city of Denton. 228 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:51,160 I also have Kevin Yard and David Mezacapa, who are engineers with SCS Engineering. 229 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,200 They are our partners in this evaluation. 230 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,120 We've hired them, they're probably some of the best people in the country. 231 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:02,000 Come out and look and evaluate the operations of systems like this to determine, are they effective? 232 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,280 Are they meeting our goals? 233 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:09,800 And they've run, earlier this year they completed an in-depth review of our process here. 234 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:17,280 And based on their findings, we bring those before you today. 235 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:25,880 You may remember last year about this time, Blue Ridge consultants brought forth a litany of recommendations. 236 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,120 Regarding the evaluation of our solid waste service over the past year, 237 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:32,680 we've actually been doing some in-depth business case analysis over the past six months. 238 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,760 Y'all been seeing some of those and with related to concrete recycling. 239 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,720 We're going to have other programs coming before you here in the near future. 240 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,320 This is just the next one in the series that we're looking at here today. 241 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:51,840 This is a very technical issue, so I'm going to try to keep it as high level as I possibly can. 242 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,800 But we are going to get down in the weeds on a couple things. 243 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:01,720 So please bear with me as we go through these and as you have questions arise, please ask them. 244 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,840 Either myself, David, Kevin, Ethan will be able to respond back. 245 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:11,040 So when we talk about landfills in particular, they're not just holes in the grounds and dumps. 246 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:18,140 They are highly engineered units that are extremely regulated through both the state, 247 00:18:18,140 --> 00:18:21,920 the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality, as well as the Environmental Protection Agency. 248 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,480 And everything we do in there has a consequence. 249 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:32,400 It's important for us to be in compliance to ensure that first of all, we're not impacting the environment, 250 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,160 but also meeting the needs of the community, ensuring the landfill capacity that we have. 251 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:42,480 Having a very environmentally friendly, yet cost effective place to put our garbage. 252 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:50,040 So one of the first regulatory things that we have to do is maintain a gas collection and monitoring system. 253 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:51,560 All landfills generate gas. 254 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,160 It's just a matter of fact. 255 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,360 With the exception of those that are inert, basically except only dirt and rock, 256 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:01,840 every other landfill in the United States of America will generate landfill gas. 257 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,760 That is a fact, regardless of what we do to it. 258 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:10,160 Now, a lot of times, as part of our landfill gas mitigation system, we will put in pipes, 259 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:18,520 we'll collect this gas, and we'll either flare it off to help destroy some of the non beneficial aspects of it. 260 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:23,680 Or we'll put it into some other mechanism, whether it be a landfill gas to energy, run an engine off of it, 261 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:30,680 generate electricity, convert it to pipeline quality gas, send it to homes, send it to vehicles, some of those things. 262 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,480 Many landfills use this, just given the amount of gas that they have. 263 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:40,680 And since 2004, City of Denton's landfill, we've actually been in a contract 264 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:46,480 with DTE to operate one of these engines that generates electricity. 265 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,120 The electricity that we produce is actually purchased by DME and 266 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:56,800 goes out to power about 1,000 households plus or minus in the system. 267 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:03,080 The third piece, when we talk about landfill component, is our enhanced leachate recirculating system. 268 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,040 The best way I can equate this, let's say I've got a car. 269 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,040 It goes well, but I want it to do just a little bit better. 270 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:11,400 So what am I going to do? 271 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,400 I'm going to put a turbocharger or supercharger on it, and it's going to give it more power, it's going to be more effective. 272 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,440 And that's what this is. 273 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,440 A lot of landfills, there are about 3,000 permitted landfills in the United States right now. 274 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:29,200 Roughly 38 of them have some sort of enhanced leachate recirculation bioreactor type system. 275 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,520 There's two different terms that are used interchangeably, depending on what state you're in. 276 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:38,480 State of Texas, they recognize the terminology, enhanced leachate recirculating system, okay? 277 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,640 If your supercharger or your turbocharger is working well, you've got something that's going down the pike. 278 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,360 But every now and then, it just doesn't work right, and you have to take it in the mechanic, 279 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:51,400 determine whether it's efficient for you to continue to operate that system. 280 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,240 And that's the point we're at right now. 281 00:20:53,240 --> 00:21:00,120 We've gone in, we've looked at the ELR, and we've asked the questions, does it make sense to continue operating it? 282 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:02,520 And we'll come to that here in a little bit. 283 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:07,400 So some definitions, when we talk about leachate, that's that liquid part of the gas. 284 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,360 We went to the Committee on the Environment here last week, and 285 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:14,920 Councilman Meltzer effectively used the term garbage juice. 286 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:21,240 And that's really the best way, is that liquid portion of the garbage that comes out, it's the leachate. 287 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:27,760 It's liquids that are already in the trash, it's rain, it's anything else that touches trash that's inside that regulated area. 288 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,960 So when we talk about leachate recirculation, we're taking that liquid portion, we put it back in the top, 289 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,200 let it go back down through the garbage, it enhances the microbes, 290 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:44,200 it destroys that organic waste just so much better, allows for settling, produces landfill gas. 291 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,960 And at the end of the day, you try to meet some certain goals. 292 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,600 When we talk about landfill gas, again, every landfill produces methane. 293 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,160 And again, it's just due to that normal decay of trashed organic material. 294 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,960 ELRs, though, again, it supercharges it. 295 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:07,440 We're recirculating, we get those bugs active, it destroys the organic matter, hopefully in a much quicker manner. 296 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,480 So back in 2005, excuse me, 297 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,640 when the leadership of the Solid Waste Department at that time came forward to the council, 298 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,880 they proposed and had approved the inaction of an ELR type system. 299 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:28,360 And the anticipated benefits of those, first of all, when you decay material, it compresses. 300 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:36,000 They were trying to generate or acquire landfill space without expanding it via permits. 301 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:41,960 So again, if you can get 20 or 30% of that space back in the first part of the operation, 302 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:49,040 again, it's much less expensive for the city and its users. 303 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,560 It produces methane, which potentially has a beneficial reuse. 304 00:22:53,560 --> 00:23:00,960 The goal when bioreactors and ELR systems were first inactive was potentially reducing liability. 305 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,200 One of the most expensive parts of operating a landfill is not in the landfill operation itself. 306 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:11,560 But once it's closed, we still have a 30 year obligation to maintain the cap, manage the liquids in it, 307 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,600 look at the landfill gas and on and on and on. 308 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,320 If we can produce all the landfill on the first years as opposed to the end years, 309 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:25,240 potentially we can cut that 30 years down or theoretically we could cut that 30 years down to 20 years, 310 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,160 15 years and save a tremendous amount of money. 311 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:34,360 To date, neither the EPA nor the TCEQ have allowed us to take advantage of that regulatory relief. 312 00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:36,720 So that still hangs over our head. 313 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,040 So again, we're looking forward to some of those benefits. 314 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,160 So again, how does the ELR system work? 315 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:50,880 You take landfill liquids off the bottom of the liner itself. 316 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:58,000 What it's done is it goes into the leachate plant, it's put into pipes where it's allowed to go back down through the garbage, 317 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:04,600 landfill gas wells, pull the gas back out of it and they take it either to a flare or some other additional benefit reuse. 318 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:11,000 Again, it's a circular type system, but at the end of the day, the only thing in ELR system is a supercharger. 319 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:17,080 We're always going to maintain landfill gas wells, header pipes and some sort of end use, 320 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,440 whether it be a flare or a beneficial reuse in the facility. 321 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,840 So the question is, is our ELR working? 322 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,480 Does it impact us the way that we want to? 323 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,440 Well, from an environmental risk standpoint, we're not seeing the reduction in the risk that we thought. 324 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:39,760 Again, the EPA, TCEQ have not enacted those regulations which allow us to cut that 30 years down to something else. 325 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:48,840 Additionally, by producing more gas, we have the potential increase of landfill gas methane migration outside the landfill. 326 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:57,120 Similarly, with as much liquid as we have in the landfill and it continues to recirculate, there's potential seats and outbreaks that occur. 327 00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:00,320 So there's additional effort that we have to put in to maintain that. 328 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:05,320 From an enhanced landfill generation standpoint, we are seeing a moderate benefit on that. 329 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:11,560 The landfill gas production is increasing, but the potential is not fully being utilized. 330 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:17,880 Currently, our landfill gas equipment is at full operational capacity and it's taking about 64% of the gas that we have. 331 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,080 The remainder of that gas that we're producing right now is flared. 332 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:29,480 And you can see some emission comparisons over here related to the engine's operation versus what we're seeing in the flare. 333 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:35,040 When we look at the incremental landfill settlement, we're going to say that that's marginally successful. 334 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:41,640 In 27 and 2018, and again, we did not operate the ELR in 2017 and 2018 for a couple of reasons. 335 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,480 First of all, there was some improvements, repairs that needed to be made to the system. 336 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,160 But secondarily, and it was presented in the previous presentation, 337 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:56,720 the last five years have been extremely wet here in the state of Texas and our landfill has a lot of water in it. 338 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:03,520 And we really couldn't manage putting additional liquids and recirculating those liquids in the system, so we have not operated it. 339 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:10,920 But if you look at the settlement that we realized in 27 and 2018, we only had about 15,000 cubic yards. 340 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:16,480 And again, cubic yardage and airspace, that is the key thing that we try to get in the landfill. 341 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,920 >> What would we have previous years using it? 342 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,400 Did we see any larger reductions? 343 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,240 >> No, we did not. 344 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:25,520 >> No, no, no. >> I mean, it's basically consistent. 345 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:26,560 >> So we're getting five days worth of- 346 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,760 >> Yeah, basically we're getting five days, and this is a settlement that we probably would have seen anyway. 347 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,800 So again, not significant impacts, and that's why we say it's marginally beneficial. 348 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:41,280 I'm trying to separate out the two between what would have happened and what additional the ELR is having. 349 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,920 We can't make that determination specifically. 350 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,320 And again, the liability reduction, there is no benefit at this point. 351 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,480 >> And why did we think we were going to get that? 352 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:57,320 The way I remember the rules by the EPA, they were never going to let you get out inside of 30 years. 353 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:04,840 >> Well, the speculation was, again, this was enacted back in 2002, so we are a long way down the road. 354 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:11,920 But in 2002, there was a program that was called Project Excel, which turned into the RDD program, 355 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,480 which basically allowed people to come forward and said, if we can meet these certain goals, 356 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,400 can we get regulatory relief at the back end, and if we can show that it works. 357 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,800 And that was the hope at that point in time. 358 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,400 There's been several programs that have been amazingly successful. 359 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,720 Fortunately, this, at least as we're looking at it here, has not been one of those. 360 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,160 So again, EPA in the last 16 years have not taken the opportunity to even start to say, 361 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,720 yeah, it looks like we're going to reduce that liability. 362 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,040 So again, that's where we find ourselves today. 363 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:49,360 Looking from a financial standpoint, we actually suspended our ELR operations in 2018. 364 00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:56,960 We are getting some revenue from our gas to energy DTE at about $155,000 a year. 365 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,320 If we were to go back in and repair the ELR, bring it up to speed, 366 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,080 operate it the way that, from a regulatory standpoint, needs to be operated, 367 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:13,480 we would anticipate that we would actually cost us about $935,000 additional a year over what we're receiving in revenue. 368 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:20,720 Now again, as we look at potentially transferring out of a gas to energy and into some other potential use, 369 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:27,320 the revenue side will be fairly consistent within about $100,000 per recon to that end. 370 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:33,040 So again, this is money that's not currently in our budget, and we're not budgeting it for it in this next year. 371 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,440 And if it's something we want to continue with, we're going to have to go back in and create a supplemental package for that. 372 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:48,800 Talking a little bit about our landfill gas to energy, DTE Biomass has a long-term agreement with the city of Denton and expires in 2024. 373 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,280 They have the right to purchase, collect the gas, as well as to produce power and sell it to DME. 374 00:28:53,280 --> 00:29:02,720 They have one engine on site is currently running at capacity, and there's not enough gas to bring on a second engine. 375 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,920 Even if there were to bring on a second engine, I'm not sure DME's appetite to purchase the power would be there. 376 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:15,000 Right now, it is the most expensive form of power in their portfolio, costing about five times as much as the renewables. 377 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,600 And it could be as close to a million dollars a year more in their portfolio if they were to bring on this additional energy. 378 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,160 So again, that's questionable. 379 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:29,880 If you look at other energy alternatives that we could undertake at the end of 2024, there are a couple more out there. 380 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,680 It's not like we have 100 different options. 381 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,840 There's only a handful of things to look at. 382 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:41,280 And again, it goes back to either flaring, which again, there's no beneficial reuse on that, landfill gas to energy. 383 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:48,760 Again, we could, by 2024, we might have enough energy just from the natural degradation to bring on an additional engine. 384 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:57,480 But again, there's some, depending on future conditions, as well as the regulatory requirement in renewable energy credits and 385 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:06,440 RENS and other things that are out there that are way above my understanding as far as the way the finances on this work may make it more expensive or less expensive. 386 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:12,520 From a pipeline quality gas standpoint, we can actually take this gas, we can condense it down. 387 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,240 Right now, landfill gas is about 50% methane, 50% other stuff. 388 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:24,400 To put it in a pipeline, you basically need to strip out that other stuff, make it right at 100% methane, be able to put it into a high pressure gas line. 389 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:32,280 It could service our fleet, our CNG fleet out there, it could go to homes to heat water and showers and things of that nature. 390 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,680 But again, that would require additional gas production. 391 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,160 We don't have enough minimum standpoint to even consider one of these. 392 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,840 And from an emissions standpoint, there's pros and cons in each of these. 393 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:51,040 We've actually looked at project comparison based on about 1,000 standard cubic feet a minute. 394 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,800 And this is what we're seeing from a NOC, CO, and VOC standpoint between the three. 395 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:01,760 Again, our landfill gas to energy is probably our most inefficient from an environmental standpoint. 396 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,520 But again, it gives us probably some of the most immediate use of the gas that we can see. 397 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:13,120 To that end, and based on our study and SES's help with this, 398 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,640 the primary objectives over the past 12 years have not been realized. 399 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:23,760 And based on the study and the potential cost in the future, we would recommend discontinuing the ELR at this time. 400 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:29,060 However, we would continue to look at other options to beneficially reuse 401 00:31:29,060 --> 00:31:35,360 the landfill gas that's currently being produced at the landfill. 402 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,480 Working with DTE trying to bring on potential energy greater and 403 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:47,560 also get us the right back to use some of that excess that we're currently flaring to use in alternative measures in the short term. 404 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,560 So with that, I appreciate your time this morning. 405 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,720 We'll be able to respond to any questions or discussion that you might have. 406 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,600 >> Questions? 407 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:05,480 >> You say the program, I guess initially started in 2002? 408 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,760 >> 2002 is when the concept was thrown out there. 409 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,120 City of Denton actually, I think, started undertaking it about 2005. 410 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:19,720 >> Okay, honestly the presentation kind of paints it as a disastrous project, frankly. 411 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,200 Seems like that's kind of what you're saying. 412 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,040 How come it took us 17 years to figure it out? 413 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,880 >> That's a really good question, one that I'm not ready to answer at this point. 414 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,040 I'm relatively new to the city of Denton. 415 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:38,040 I'm looking at this fresh, with a fresh set of eyes, just like everybody else. 416 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,440 Ethan might be able to respond to that just a little bit better. 417 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,920 I guess prices were a heck of a lot higher. 418 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,200 >> Thanks for that introduction, Mayor. 419 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:46,880 >> You're welcome. 420 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:52,720 >> I think probably the best way we can answer that is, as you all are aware and 421 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,840 as Brian alluded to, we brought Blue Ridge consultants in last year. 422 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,800 Because this isn't the only project or program we've been dealing with like this. 423 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,680 And so they kind of gave us the 30,000 foot view. 424 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,080 If you'll rewind to about June last year, 425 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,200 it was their recommendation to pull the plug on this program then. 426 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,200 Like Brian said, we are in a climate where we get our fair share of rainfall. 427 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,320 And in a lot of cases, businesses or landfills will take this on, 428 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,400 because they're having to transport their wastewater a long way. 429 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,200 And there's heightened risk with that, heightened cost. 430 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,320 Fortunately for us, our wastewater treatment facility is right next door. 431 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,400 And so I think when you look back at what was contemplated in 2005, 432 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,920 there were a number of aspirational goals that were set out. 433 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,720 I think to answer your question, Mr. Carroll, we should have been more closely 434 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,880 monitoring this each year to see, is it having the desired impact? 435 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,360 What's our settlement looking like? 436 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,760 Are we making beneficial use of all the gas? 437 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,440 To me, I think the real kicker on this is once you start hitting that point to where 438 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,720 we're no longer beneficially reusing the gas, we're having to flare excess. 439 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,200 That should have been the red alert that says we need to turn this thing off because 440 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,360 we're making more gas than we can use. 441 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:09,000 And that was really our decision about January 2017 was cut the gas off or 442 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,720 cut the recirculation off and let's try to get that gas curve down to a controllable level. 443 00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:16,760 So it's really what you have up here in terms of recommendations. 444 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,920 When we talk about the ELR, by all intents and purposes, 445 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,800 we haven't operated it for the better part of two years. 446 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,080 So I think the real decision before the board and the council tomorrow is gonna be, 447 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:32,720 do you want to turn this back on and try to get gas to a level that we could maybe 448 00:34:32,720 --> 00:34:35,920 try to reach one of these other facilities? 449 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,520 Staff's position is, that's not a great idea because again, it's speculative. 450 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:41,960 You'd need to take on extra waste. 451 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,120 You'd need to add extra water into it. 452 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,040 And as you know, that's gonna generate more gas. 453 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,600 And so we'll flare more before we're able to hit one of those other facilities. 454 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,680 Just the reality of it. 455 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,120 So I hope that helps that kind of answer the question. 456 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:54,920 >> Sure, sure, sure. 457 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,040 >> And I know back then that was all the rage. 458 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:02,240 All the landfills were doing it, including the landfill that I worked with back then. 459 00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:07,240 >> We're not the only ones re-evaluating this and I forget who said it. 460 00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:12,320 But the gas prices a few years ago, this looked like a very sweet deal. 461 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,440 >> And renewable energy, everybody thought it was a great renewable energy. 462 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:18,360 >> Sure. 463 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,440 >> Well, let me also add too that Ethan and 464 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:28,280 his team, they've been working in that operation since what, early 2017. 465 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,560 So for the last two years, they're going through a process of reviewing programs that 466 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:37,240 may have been established in the past and going through it with a level of analysis 467 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:39,800 to bring to you all and the council to determine whether or 468 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,600 not we want to continue these programs. 469 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,660 >> I guess a level of analysis that we weren't using before. 470 00:35:44,660 --> 00:35:45,880 >> That's correct. 471 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,000 >> Okay, okay. 472 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,640 I do have one more question that you're probably gonna want to stay with. 473 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,440 >> Okay. 474 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,760 >> On slide eight, there's a financial overview. 475 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,040 This is kind of in the same vein as the last question. 476 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,320 Is this a single year? 477 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,840 It says annual, which suggests to me a single year. 478 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,800 >> Yeah, and what we've done, so the system design cost is actually about $100,000. 479 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,000 So we've broken that out over about a ten year period, but 480 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,880 the remainder of those costs are annual. 481 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,000 Now, looking in the rear view mirror, were we expending this level every year? 482 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,040 The answer is no. 483 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,400 And I think Kevin and David, their work has basically said, 484 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,560 they've come through a couple of times over the last few years and 485 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,920 said you really need to reinvest in this system if you're going to get the maximum 486 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,280 benefit out of it. 487 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,040 I think we've been somewhat hit or miss in terms of funding and 488 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,280 operational improvements over the last few years. 489 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:40,080 I think the question might be is, if we operated this thing efficiently, 490 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,400 would we be seeing a better outcome? 491 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,320 Financially, I think the answer to that's no. 492 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:50,520 So I think the big limiter right now on gassed energy revenue is we have one engine. 493 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,680 So to get to the next engine, we've got to increase gas output. 494 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,680 So you may be adding another $300,000 or another $155,000. 495 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,200 A high BTU facility may get you a little bit more revenue than that, but 496 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,360 not enough to offset the additional cost of the ELR. 497 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,400 To Brian's point earlier, I think the idea is we will generate gas as we move along. 498 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,840 The more waste that goes into that facility, we'll be adding gas wells and 499 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,040 pulling that off. 500 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,320 We may be able to reach one of those more beneficial facilities like high BTU just 501 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,840 naturally without having to operate the ELR. 502 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,520 >> But that may be years down the road. 503 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,360 >> That may be years down the road, correct. 504 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,920 And we mentioned earlier some alternative uses for the gases. 505 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,680 Are there some facilities we could heat with this if we clean it up? 506 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,560 Are there some other things that we can do that doesn't require a huge capital 507 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,080 investment while still trying to get some beneficial use out of this? 508 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,120 >> So just to more to my point, we're not, 509 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,520 we haven't been losing that kind of money over the last 17 years. 510 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:49,840 >> We've been losing an amount of money. 511 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,160 I think just being completely candid with the board, it would be very difficult for 512 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,520 us to break out and say this was expended toward the ELR versus something else. 513 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,920 I think our capital plan was in a state that it would be very hard for 514 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,920 me to tell you exactly what was spent on this. 515 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,560 >> So go back to slide eight then. 516 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,080 I want to make sure I understand this. 517 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,320 So we weren't, the system construction, 518 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,060 is that like the depreciation of the system? 519 00:38:17,060 --> 00:38:19,840 >> No, it's what we'd have to invest. 520 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,360 >> Right. >> All right. 521 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,400 >> Horizontal, lateral lines. 522 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,800 >> These are more move forward numbers basically with the ELR. 523 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:26,560 >> Yes. 524 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,960 >> Question, I'm going to give you, go ahead, you finish yours. 525 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,480 >> But we were spending the $120,000, the $85,000. 526 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:41,760 All of those costs are true annual costs to operate the ELR. 527 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,120 >> No, I think we weren't expending all of those either. 528 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,040 >> Okay. >> And so I think what SCS has given us 529 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,900 is if you really want to do this operation efficiently, you want to do it right, 530 00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:53,440 this is the level of investment that you're probably looking at. 531 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,520 I think we were falling short of this. 532 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,480 >> Okay. >> And so essentially, 533 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:02,600 just kind of as an example, you install a line in there to recirculate the leachate 534 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,360 in the waste, eventually that waste is going to, around that line, 535 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,720 is going to start to degrade such that that water, that leachate has nowhere to move. 536 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:15,360 And so you are constantly having to refresh and update your system. 537 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,360 Because as you take on new waste, you're installing new lines. 538 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,800 And so it's a pretty heavy investment. 539 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,960 >> So one is a projection and one. 540 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,640 >> One is what we're doing right now, that non-ELR. 541 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,480 I think that's exactly what we're spending today. 542 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,800 >> I think also going back to Mr. Cheek's statement earlier. 543 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:39,920 When this was first visualized, gas was at what, 1250 and MMFCF. 544 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,680 I think spot market right now is slightly above 265. 545 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,440 Again, that $10 difference in there, I mean, when this was proposed, 546 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,520 is to be cost neutral because of all the gas sales and everything else. 547 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,440 And when the bottom drops out of the gas market, those savings have to come from 548 00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:01,680 somewhere, so again, that's where we see the 935,000 estimated potential loss. 549 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:07,320 >> Okay, my question is along the same lines as what you were asking about as well. 550 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:12,000 Because those, that $600,000 and several of the other items, 551 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,520 what's the depreciated value of those capital investments? 552 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,920 I mean, what's the depreciated life of those capital investments? 553 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:24,160 >> A lot of it depends on what the piece is involved that we're doing. 554 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,840 Over the life of this, as Ethan was saying, sometimes waste gets so 555 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:33,920 tightly packed around the leachate lines that the leachate can't flow through them. 556 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,920 Sometimes, I mean, landfills get warm. 557 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,360 Because basically it's a big compost pile for lack of anything else. 558 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,280 But depending on how they were installed, they could basically flatten. 559 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,160 So again, could be anywhere from five years to 25 years, 560 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,520 depending on the component that's put in. 561 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,640 But again, you continue to evaluate, you continue to upgrade, 562 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,280 you continue to ensure that the- >> Maintain. 563 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,880 >> Well, you maintain, but you have to ensure that the infrastructure is viable. 564 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:04,360 Because the minute one piece stops working, you lose all that efficiency. 565 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,120 You gotta keep it operational. 566 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,600 >> Okay, well, I think I'm just trying to make sure I understand that the ELR columnar's, 567 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,240 you're not spending $600,000 a year on system construction, correct? 568 00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:14,880 >> No, you would be. 569 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:15,600 >> You would be. 570 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,520 >> Because it's enhancing additional material that has gone to waste, but it's also- 571 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:21,840 >> I thought maybe I was looking at that incorrectly. 572 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,960 >> You were hoping that wasn't the number. 573 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,280 >> Yeah, that is a very big number. 574 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,360 But again, it's either retrofitting stuff that needs to be repaired or 575 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,000 installing new systems that have to go into, okay. 576 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:39,040 >> I have one question, too, the environmental impact of not collecting the methane gas. 577 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,320 Is that going to be negative? 578 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,440 Is it going to be, what is it? 579 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:48,080 >> I mean, right now, regulatorily, we are required to collect this and manage that. 580 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:53,240 So again, we're going to do that anyway, outside of whether we operate an ELR or not. 581 00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:56,120 >> Okay. >> So again, we've got to separate those two questions. 582 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:56,840 >> Okay. 583 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:02,760 >> The issue is, do we try to supercharge it, produce more, but not be able to use it beneficially? 584 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:07,080 Or do we let the landfill work like it's going to, and 585 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:12,160 manage that material as beneficial as we can in the time that's present. 586 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,120 >> Okay, so I want to go back, I'm piggybacking on that one. 587 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:25,040 On slide six, you're talking about emissions comparison between the engine and the flaring. 588 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:25,920 >> Correct. 589 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:31,800 >> So as we move forward, we're always going to also incorporate that as a part of the analysis, right? 590 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:37,080 >> Correct, we will always be looking at emissions in our cost-benefit analysis. 591 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,320 Because again, there's a cost standpoint, there's an environmental standpoint. 592 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:45,000 But at some point in time, you've got that Venn diagram where the two pieces cross, and that's what we're looking at here. 593 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:52,480 At a minimum, we will always flare, which again, according to this chart, is our least emissions as a result of it. 594 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:59,240 But at some point in time, rather than just burn it, we want to try to have, whether it's heat, electricity, or something else coming from it. 595 00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:02,240 And we want to try to gain some of that impact. 596 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:07,920 >> Okay, I have a couple more things, I have a couple more things. 597 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,120 >> Go ahead. 598 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,160 >> It's kind of back to that page eight, the financial overview. 599 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:22,520 And you mentioned that if we move forward, that some of the changes that we would make, 600 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:32,200 perhaps in the monitoring and record keeping, we might have to enhance those due to regulations. 601 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:32,800 >> Correct. 602 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:38,200 >> Okay, so up to operating it up to January 2018, 603 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:44,560 have we exposed ourselves to any regulation liability by not operating it clearly, properly? 604 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,920 >> No, no, we currently, given the amount of gas that we're producing, 605 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,960 given the amount of regulatory requirements that are currently on us, 606 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:58,880 we are compliant with all the aspects of TCEQ and the EPA. 607 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,120 So we are compliant, we are doing what we have to do. 608 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:11,040 But as gas increases, that thus enhances also our regulatory and the effort that we have to expend to maintain that compliance. 609 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,800 >> Okay, and this really isn't an ELR question, it's kind of a landfill regulation question. 610 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,000 We have another landfill east of town that we used to use a long time ago. 611 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:25,840 Last we heard about it, it had a cap that was collapsing, and we were supposed to come in and fix the cap. 612 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,240 And I was wondering if somebody could tell us how that landfill is doing right now. 613 00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:36,160 >> Well, we continue to monitor it, but we are currently working on a couple of presentations to bring back to you in July. 614 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,400 So it's not off our radar, we continue to look at that. 615 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:39,240 >> Thank you, thank you. 616 00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:41,160 Okay, I'm done. 617 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,960 >> Any other questions? 618 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:44,440 All right. 619 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:52,000 >> Okay, so I guess what we're seeking from you today is just direction that we go ahead and discontinue the operation of the ELR. 620 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:58,480 >> Yeah, I don't see any reason why you should spend that kind of money to keep doing something that nobody has much faith in. 621 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,520 >> All right, thank you very much for your time today. 622 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,000 >> I think it was another one of those feel good plans. 623 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,120 >> It's worth a shot. 624 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,400 >> All right, the next item will be the consent agenda. 625 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:18,600 We have items A through H. 626 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:23,760 Does any board member wish to pull an item for additional consideration? 627 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:29,480 All right, do we have a motion to approve A through H? 628 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,320 >> So moved. 629 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:33,720 >> And a second? 630 00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:34,760 >> Second. 631 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,360 >> All in favor say aye. 632 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,280 >> Aye. >> Opposed? 633 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:38,880 Carries. 634 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,520 >> Okay, the next item, that's H. 635 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:51,040 Consider the approval of the public utilities board meeting minutes of March 25th. 636 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,800 Were there any changes or corrections? 637 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:59,560 Hearing none, we'll approve as circulated. 638 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:07,640 And then item B, consider recommending adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton authorizing the city manager 639 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:14,760 to designate to execute confidentiality and nondisclosure agreement between the city and Helena Wind. 640 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,720 >> Good morning, George Morrow, general manager of DMA. 641 00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:24,080 As you probably recall from our prior discussions, we issued some RFPs for 642 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:31,000 renewable power and we're engaging some of the respondents in more detailed discussions. 643 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:36,440 And the two nondisclosure agreements and confidentiality agreements you have before you today 644 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:41,160 are necessary for those parties to be willing to share more information with us. 645 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,560 So we're asking for your recommendation on these two items. 646 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:55,120 >> I'm sorry, he was whispering to me. 647 00:46:55,120 --> 00:47:02,120 >> In summary, we're asking for your recommendation on these two items. 648 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:07,680 We expect to move forward to execute the two nondisclosure confidentiality agreements that 649 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:14,800 allows us to get further down the road with a couple of these entities that have responded to our RFP. 650 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,400 >> Have other companies asked us to do this before? 651 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,340 >> It's very typical, so we have quite a few of these. 652 00:47:20,340 --> 00:47:24,840 >> And I guess I don't remember this particular thing coming before us before like this. 653 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,440 >> Yeah, yeah. 654 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,520 >> The nondisclosure component? 655 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,680 >> Yeah, we've brought quite a few of them for different circumstances. 656 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,440 Some of them are for their RFPs and some. 657 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:40,320 We do try to put a paragraph or so in our RFPs that some of the respondents have been comfortable with. 658 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,640 Others want more detail. 659 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,520 We have maybe a paragraph, they prefer six or eight pages. 660 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:50,560 So these are a couple of the six or eight page type entities. 661 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,560 >> Okay, so you need a motion to approve. 662 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:54,960 >> Motion to approve would be wonderful. 663 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,560 >> I recommend approval. 664 00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:58,920 >> And a second? 665 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,000 >> Second. 666 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,600 >> All in favor say aye. 667 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:02,400 >> Aye. 668 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:03,400 >> Opposed? 669 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:04,040 >> Thank you very much. 670 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:04,560 >> Thank you. 671 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:09,040 >> And we're having a changing of the guard. 672 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:16,080 We're on to the ACM update. 673 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:22,880 >> Change of the guard and on the spot. 674 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,040 >> Yeah, and on the spot. 675 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,720 >> Good morning board. 676 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,760 We just have a few items to go over on the ACM updates. 677 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:39,200 We basically have the matrix. 678 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:48,480 And as noted last time, we completed the report on what we're paying for energy, etc, item number two. 679 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:55,200 We still have to schedule a PUB board meeting and times associated with that meeting, and we'll work on getting that scheduled. 680 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,600 Hopefully we can get that on the next meeting agenda. 681 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:03,600 The future public utility board agenda items have been provided to you. 682 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,520 We're generally on track with those. 683 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:16,160 On May 6th, we're going to possibly just take the electric budget presentation to you and then on May 20, follow up with water and wastewater. 684 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:22,280 I'm going to circle back with finance and get that verified, but that's what we currently have scheduled on the financial calendar. 685 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,320 And that is pretty much all I have. 686 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:34,360 >> All right, so Mr. Coat, do I do concluding items before we close the meeting, because we're not going to re-adjourn? 687 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,000 >> Yeah, I'll do it. 688 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,560 >> Okay, okay, all right, so concluding items. 689 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:45,400 Are there any items that a board member would like to be brought forward in a future board meeting? 690 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:53,880 All right, so do we adjourn, Larry? 691 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,880 I'm sorry. 692 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,280 >> You're just going to close the regular meeting. 693 00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,320 >> We're going to close the regular meeting, okay. 694 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,000 >> You already closed, come out and close it. 695 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:09,120 >> Okay, all right, so now we'll go into closed, and bear with me, I'm supposed to read this whole item. 696 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:16,040 We're going to discuss, deliberate, and receive information from staff and provide staff with direction 697 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:21,720 pertaining to the potential acquisition of real property interest generally located in one. 698 00:50:21,720 --> 00:50:31,400 The first 800 block of Eagle Drive, two, Avenue H between West Hickory Street and West Prairie Street. 699 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:36,960 Three, West Prairie Street between South Bonnie Bray Street and North Texas Boulevard. 700 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,880 Four, Stella Street between South Bonnie Bray Street and North Texas Boulevard. 701 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:46,960 Five, North Texas Boulevard between Stella Street and Eagle Boulevard. 702 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,000 Six, Maple Street between South Locust and Avenue C. 703 00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:56,600 Seven, Fannin Street between S Avenue B and Bernard Street. 704 00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,120 Eight, South Avenue B from Maple Street to Underwood Street. 705 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:07,760 Nine, Bernard Street between Eagle Boulevard and Collins Street. 706 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,560 Ten, Carroll Boulevard between Eagle Drive and West Collins Street. 707 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,520 11, West Collins Street between S Avenue A and Carroll Boulevard. 708 00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:20,600 11, Myrtle Street between Fort Worth Drive and Maple Street. 709 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,440 13, Pierce Street between Maple Street and Stroud Street. 710 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:30,680 14, Eagle Drive between South Locust Street and Avenue C. 711 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:37,680 15, Fort Worth Drive between West Collins Street and Maple Avenue. 712 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,760 All in the city of Denton, Denton County, Texas. 713 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:46,440 Consultation with the city's attorneys regarding legal issues associated with the potential acquisition or 714 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:53,000 condemnation of real property interest described above or a public discussion of these legal matters could conflict. 715 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:58,760 With the duty of the city's attorneys to the city of Denton and Denton City Council under Texas. 716 00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:05,840 Disciplinary rules of professional conduct of the state of bar of Texas would jeopardize the city's legal position. 717 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,560 In any administrative proceedings or potential litigation. 718 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,400 This pertains to electric distribution and transmission lines in Eagle Station.