WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.400 We're going to go ahead and open up tonight's special citizens bond advisory committee, 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:13.080 now that it's six o'clock. 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:14.080 Welcome here. 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:16.920 Thanks for coming back for another time. 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:19.280 Tonight is where we really start digging in. 00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:24.360 We've got two more projects to look at, which are both important ones, but then we're going 00:00:24.360 --> 00:00:30.520 to really start deliberating in earnest a bit as we are going to have a homework assignment 00:00:30.520 --> 00:00:33.120 at the end of tonight that we're going to take home. 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:36.760 It's not something we'll do here, which is going to give you the opportunity, we'll talk 00:00:36.760 --> 00:00:44.120 more about it, to prioritize the projects according to what you know, what you think 00:00:44.120 --> 00:00:45.880 based on the conversations we've had today. 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:50.960 So prior to that, we want to have some time to be able to dig into further questions that 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:56.880 are yet unanswered, topics that you want to make sure we delve into relating to these 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:57.880 projects. 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:01.760 So we're going to do a little switcheroo on the agenda, just for your knowledge. 00:01:01.760 --> 00:01:09.400 We're going to switch C, item C, and item D. So right after we hear a report on a municipal 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:14.680 complex and affordable housing, we're going to jump into a presentation on the city tax 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:15.680 rate. 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:21.160 Then we're going to have the discussion, the one regarding all projects and project information. 00:01:21.160 --> 00:01:28.080 That's going to start off with an updated list of the pricing that we know of as of 00:01:28.080 --> 00:01:29.080 today. 00:01:29.080 --> 00:01:31.600 That might have changed from what we heard when we first started looking at these projects. 00:01:31.600 --> 00:01:35.960 So that's going to help us get a sense of the total amount of these projects, and then 00:01:35.960 --> 00:01:41.240 we can have some discussion as needed around any of those topics. 00:01:41.240 --> 00:01:45.720 So humor me with that little change just so we can make sure we have enough time to discuss 00:01:45.720 --> 00:01:46.720 tonight. 00:01:46.720 --> 00:01:47.720 So let's get started. 00:01:47.720 --> 00:01:51.720 Agenda item A, consider approval of the minutes for June 15, 2023. 00:01:51.720 --> 00:01:53.680 Do I have a motion? 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.200 I move that we accept. 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:58.080 Mr. Thurman moves. 00:01:58.080 --> 00:02:00.120 Thank you. 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:04.000 All in favor, please raise your right hand. 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:05.000 All opposed? 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:06.000 That passes. 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:11.220 The next item is item B, receive a report and hold discussion regarding the following 00:02:11.220 --> 00:02:24.200 - one, a municipal complex and city hall, and two, affordable housing. 00:02:24.200 --> 00:02:45.680 All right, good evening, can everyone hear this doesn't move that well. 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:51.760 Good evening, I'm Frank Dixon, one of the Assistant City Managers, I'm going to be co-presenting 00:02:51.760 --> 00:02:55.940 with Wayne Emerson over here, we're going to go through the municipal complex. 00:02:55.940 --> 00:03:02.600 First we want to talk about, before I let Wayne get into it, a couple of reminders about 00:03:02.600 --> 00:03:03.600 the complex. 00:03:03.600 --> 00:03:08.240 For those of you that went on the tour, I think you saw firsthand how some of the challenges 00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:14.720 that we're facing right now were over 100% at capacity in the facility, ADA requirements 00:03:14.720 --> 00:03:22.000 have not been met ever, those that went in saw how long it took you to walk in, going 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:27.280 around the entirety of the courtyard, so imagine if you were in a wheelchair or you were mobility 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:30.000 challenged, how that would look for you. 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:35.060 On top of that, you know, you see some of the other things were kind of limited in how 00:03:35.060 --> 00:03:41.960 we could do any further renovations to the building, there was some renderings back when 00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:46.200 the building was first constructed that said that there was a possibility of building onto 00:03:46.200 --> 00:03:52.200 a second story, I think that came up at least once in the earlier discussions in here, but 00:03:52.200 --> 00:04:00.280 to be clear about what that looked like, that was back in like 1963, 1967, so the structure 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:05.760 of the facility has changed dramatically over time, we would have to do another complete 00:04:05.760 --> 00:04:13.120 structural review to see if that would even be a factor, additionally, the rooftop mounted 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:19.120 air conditioners, they're on what would be come the second floor, are still there, along 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:24.240 with there's no elevator presently, there was never plans for an elevator, so to go 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:29.280 in there and cut more space out to put in an elevator shaft, the potential of being 00:04:29.280 --> 00:04:35.280 able to build onto the second floor if that's even an option, and then outside of that have 00:04:35.280 --> 00:04:40.320 an outdoor staircases going up to the second level from outside, just presents a number 00:04:40.320 --> 00:04:45.400 of different challenges, I think there's some opportunities to really talk about the 00:04:45.400 --> 00:04:52.360 historical complex that encompasses not just the Civic Center, City Hall, the library and 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:57.880 some other things Wayne will get into, but we're really trying to forecast a very comprehensive 00:04:57.880 --> 00:05:03.120 look on how we can make the entire complex look better, feel better, and really serve 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:10.120 the citizens better. So with that, I'll hand it over to Wayne. 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:22.640 Okay, so Frank, oh sorry, sorry, it's Frank, Wayne Emerson, Director of Economic Development. 00:05:22.640 --> 00:05:30.640 As Frank alluded to, the current capacity of the City Hall is 107%, so we're over capacity 00:05:30.640 --> 00:05:37.320 and you can see, forecast it out over the next 20 years, it's going to be pretty tight 00:05:37.320 --> 00:05:43.040 in there if not impossible to house city staff, so I think one way or another, the city is 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:48.360 going to have to address its facilities issue when it comes to staff and getting the work 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:53.680 done that needs to be done there in City Hall. Once again, through the age of the facility, 00:05:53.680 --> 00:06:01.600 it's not ADA compliant, but I think what we want to stress about the City Hall is that 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:08.160 it is a great building and it's a fantastic building designed by O'Neill Ford, so when 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:14.160 I did my interview having no nothing about it, I remember walking up into the courtyard 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:18.920 and I remember just kind of thinking to myself, oh this is nice, and then coming into the 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:24.060 building with the satelio tile, I don't know anything about architecture, but it gave me 00:06:24.060 --> 00:06:29.360 a great feeling and I always got that feeling when I went in there and then working on this 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:33.920 project, learning about O'Neill Ford, that that's exactly what he was all about was being 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:41.920 human centered and giving you that great feeling, so I think when we talk about this, you know, 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:46.600 we have to understand that the city is changing, we are growing, but we can also recognize 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:53.560 that that's a fantastic building, and there's intention to, we are going to continue to 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:59.160 use that, I'm sorry, let me go back there, you know, possible uses for that, the municipal 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:04.560 archive, housing parks and rec out of there would be a great location right there next 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:11.160 to Quaker Town Park, environmental services, once again great within that area, municipal 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:16.280 judge and the municipal court, so that building will continue and have a purpose and a use 00:07:16.280 --> 00:07:26.440 into the city for the near, for the future, but when we look at the entire site, I like 00:07:26.440 --> 00:07:32.680 to just kind of do a little bit of analysis for you, so this, that site north of McKinney 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:40.040 is called the O'Neill Ford historic landmark civic complex, so all nestled there in Quaker 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:46.520 Town Park, you know, to the north we have civic center, we have west, we have the current 00:07:46.520 --> 00:07:52.760 city hall there at number four, but to me when we think about this proposal and what 00:07:52.760 --> 00:08:01.880 makes it an economic development proposal is when I look at it, I look at there's a 00:08:01.880 --> 00:08:08.320 cost to the bond, but what's our opportunity cost, okay, and what do I mean about that, 00:08:08.320 --> 00:08:15.080 is if we're presented with an opportunity, what does it cost us if we forego that opportunity, 00:08:15.080 --> 00:08:21.440 so as we analyze this site, we look, you know, just to the south of civic center, we have 00:08:21.440 --> 00:08:28.120 the parking lot for the civic center, it's about 185 parking space, move to the west, 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:34.480 we have an empty lot, some additional parking, about 53, and then we have the city hall parking 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:43.720 lot, another parking, 43 spaces, so we need those spaces to have our civic functions, 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:50.200 but we also own this property to the south of McKinney, once again, more parking, 125 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:57.440 spaces, so I think the first question is are we using these city assets to their highest 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:04.800 and best use, are we getting the best public benefit, and when we look at a new city hall 00:09:04.800 --> 00:09:12.160 facility or a larger municipal complex, is there more value that we can have and is there 00:09:12.160 --> 00:09:17.760 an opportunity for that, so in this next slide, I want to give, I want to do a visioning exercise 00:09:17.760 --> 00:09:23.400 with you, and this is, I'm going to give you a concept of what this complex could look 00:09:23.400 --> 00:09:28.920 like, and it's really meant to be a vision to see what are the possibilities and what's 00:09:28.920 --> 00:09:35.280 the opportunities that we might be missing out on. 00:09:35.280 --> 00:09:43.840 So if you look straight to the west, I'd like to start there, and this concept, this rendering, 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:51.200 we see that here's an opportunity for us to bring Quaker Town Park out in front of city 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:59.800 hall and connect it to McKinney, so that the park is literally on a front porch of the 00:09:59.800 --> 00:10:07.840 streetscape there, and we're replacing parking for a park, to me that's a much higher public 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:15.760 benefit, then as we kind of move east, you can see number three there would be that new 00:10:15.760 --> 00:10:22.360 municipal complex, that facility, 37,000 square feet large enough to house our current staffing 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:28.720 needs, but for the city for the next 50 years, right, because I think this is not just about 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:35.360 our needs today, but it's our needs in the future, and you know, those needs are only 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:42.080 going to grow, and then to the south, those number fives, this is an opportunity to maybe 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:51.120 add some additional commercial economic activity, could be some retail pavilions, offering places 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:57.920 for local small businesses to do business, and then at number two, I don't want to worry 00:10:57.920 --> 00:11:01.960 you guys said, "Hey, we're talking about downtown, we don't have any parking." 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:09.320 This is a parking structure, and in this rendering, there's 350 spaces, which if you add up all 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:15.760 that parking that I said north of McKinney, we're actually netting out 70 additional parking 00:11:15.760 --> 00:11:23.360 spaces, so to me, just on the north side right there alone, we have our city assets, and 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:29.440 we are utilizing them to their highest and best use, we're adding public benefit, we're 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:35.040 bringing economic activity, bringing more people to downtown so that they could visit 00:11:35.040 --> 00:11:41.160 the other businesses down there, and we're generating revenue for the city by having 00:11:41.160 --> 00:11:43.120 some commercial activity there. 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:49.440 Then, in this concept to the south, when we look at economic opportunity, this could be 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:54.760 some sort of mixed use development, just depend on what sort of partner, if we start this 00:11:54.760 --> 00:12:00.880 as a private partnership, whatever the market would dictate that could be, you could imagine 00:12:00.880 --> 00:12:07.920 to its highest use that could be office, could be some more additional retail, some residential, 00:12:07.920 --> 00:12:13.280 and then of course, there's plenty of space to add a parking structure there as well. 00:12:13.280 --> 00:12:22.320 In this particular example, you're getting 200 spaces, which is a net 75 on that piece. 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:30.600 All of that being said, I think we still go back to our original piece of this being a 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:36.880 historical site, Quakertown Park, O'Neill Ford's Municipal Complex, the Civic Center, 00:12:36.880 --> 00:12:43.360 Emily Fowler Library to the North, and our current facility, and seeing this new development, 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:46.560 does that take away from the historic character? 00:12:46.560 --> 00:12:54.320 Well, I want to show you this right here, this is our neighbors to the south, San Antonio, 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:59.160 the campus of Trinity University, so some of you may be aware of this, but O'Neill Ford, 00:12:59.160 --> 00:13:04.640 fully designed that university campus and the buildings on it, and they too are experiencing 00:13:04.640 --> 00:13:10.120 growing pains just like us, and they realized that they needed to grow and create new facilities 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:16.080 to house those new students, and so what they did is they came up with this new building, 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:21.000 Dickey Hall, and when they went out to the architect there, is that architect studied 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:27.520 O'Neill Ford, and it really encompassed a lot of his concepts, you know, it's modern, 00:13:27.520 --> 00:13:32.440 it encompasses nature, using this wood paneling that I'm sure we're all very familiar with 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:39.760 in our current facility, and so really this is modern, and it's in the same vein of O'Neill 00:13:39.760 --> 00:13:49.040 Ford, and can still give us that great feel, and harken back to that history, and so what 00:13:49.040 --> 00:13:50.520 could that look like for us? 00:13:50.520 --> 00:13:57.240 Well, here's a conceptual rendering of the new, what could be our new council chambers, 00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:02.360 so you'll notice the wood paneling that we're all so familiar with, but what I really like 00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:09.520 about this one, which makes it modern, is bringing in some natural light, and in this 00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:14.940 particular piece it's actually overlooking Quaker Town Park, so our government's outlooking 00:14:14.940 --> 00:14:21.560 over there, the nature and the light is coming in as our council is doing the business of 00:14:21.560 --> 00:14:30.920 the government, or the city, okay, so all that to be said, all that great idea, ultimately 00:14:30.920 --> 00:14:36.960 though we have to get there, and that, to get those additional uses, those private uses, 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:42.000 we're gonna need a public-private partnership, so what is that, and what does that mean? 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:47.000 I think it means a lot of things, and it's confusing, and I work in economic development, 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:51.720 and sometimes I can even get confused about this, but there's really two distinctions, 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:57.400 and they're used interchangeably when we talk about public-private partnerships, so there 00:14:57.400 --> 00:15:03.240 is public-private partnership as a procurement method, and then there's just a public-private 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:10.120 partnership as a deal structure, and I think in this instance what we would see is that 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:15.200 we're probably talking about both of these things, when we talk about as a deal structure, 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:21.000 this is probably something you're more familiar to, the city's gonna partner with a private 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:25.440 developer or a private business, and we're gonna have specific deal structures, we're 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:32.480 gonna define that risk allocation, the financial terms, incentives, and the performance standards, 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:38.480 and each of those things are gonna be tailored to the specific project, but there's also 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:45.520 this idea that kind of started in Canada, it's a procurement method, and what this is, 00:15:45.520 --> 00:15:50.380 this involves the public sector contracting with a private entity, and then the private 00:15:50.380 --> 00:15:56.680 entity is in charge of designing, building, financing, could be operating, could be maintaining 00:15:56.680 --> 00:16:02.240 the project, and it's primarily used for infrastructure projects and public facilities. 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:10.680 Okay, that being said, P3s can take many forms, there is no definition of this is a P3 and 00:16:10.680 --> 00:16:17.880 this is how they are all done, the exact structure and distribution of responsibilities in a 00:16:17.880 --> 00:16:23.680 P3 can vary significantly, and it's wholly dependent on what the arrangement of that 00:16:23.680 --> 00:16:30.520 agreement is, so for us, when we think about this project, it's about finding the right 00:16:30.520 --> 00:16:35.640 partner that has the same vision and the same goals that we're looking for, and making sure 00:16:35.640 --> 00:16:44.320 that when we go out and we find that partner, that's exactly what we're looking for. 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:50.880 So we take a step back and we look at a traditional procurement method, public sector is solely 00:16:50.880 --> 00:16:56.840 responsible for initiating, planning, designing, financing, construction, operation, and the 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:03.160 maintenance of the project, and the process is usually fractured, involves separate contracts, 00:17:03.160 --> 00:17:08.360 it's kind of broken up, it's designed in phases, and I think most importantly is the 00:17:08.360 --> 00:17:13.960 public sector is going to assume most of the risks, and we got to rely on our own resources 00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:17.880 and capabilities to deliver that project. 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:22.600 So what would be an advantage of doing this as a P3 as a procurement method? 00:17:22.600 --> 00:17:29.440 Okay, well, one thing is increased cost efficiency, risk sharing, which I'll talk a little bit 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:35.640 more about that here in a second, increased quality and timeliness, which is kind of related 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:42.200 to risk sharing, which I'll show in the next one, but also when we engage the private sector, 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:47.680 they're motivated to help us stimulate some of that business activity, which could create 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:52.760 additional revenue for the city and create jobs, so what does that kind of look like? 00:17:52.760 --> 00:17:57.480 I like to think of this orange here as like the deal zone, right, and these are things 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:01.800 that we can both benefit off of. 00:18:01.800 --> 00:18:08.800 So if we had sort of like that municipal complex I had before, the city would benefit from 00:18:08.800 --> 00:18:14.920 any property tax from those privately owned facilities, the private sector would be able 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:21.080 to get some rent from those buildings, and then kind of there in the middle, any sales 00:18:21.080 --> 00:18:26.200 generated off those private uses, we're both going to benefit, right, because they're going 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:31.360 to get those sales and then the city's going to get taxable sales as well. 00:18:31.360 --> 00:18:39.560 Cost, so in the traditional method, there's really a lack of innovation, there's no incentive 00:18:39.560 --> 00:18:45.440 once we go out in that contract to really lower the cost, so as that example I showed 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:50.960 you earlier, there's a couple different parking structures, and really there can be an incentive 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:57.760 where the two uses aren't always parking at the same time, right, so there may be more 00:18:57.760 --> 00:19:03.480 need for parking in the daytime for our uses, but more need for parking on the private sector 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:09.400 in the evening, and so in this sharing model, they get it for the mixed use facilities, 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:14.320 we get it for our municipal facilities, and we're really sharing the cost on that garage, 00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:16.960 which can help lower the cost. 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:21.800 This to me is I think the biggest benefit is when you look at the risk. 00:19:21.800 --> 00:19:25.440 So for this city, we're going to say, hey, we're going to issue some bonds, bonds is 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:31.800 debt, there's an inherent risk any time you issue debt, but I think the biggest risk in 00:19:31.800 --> 00:19:37.420 this is any delays or cost overruns, so I think you could probably just look to any 00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:43.560 other city project, especially now when there's a delay, there's going to be cost overruns, 00:19:43.560 --> 00:19:49.720 and those cost overruns are high, and so with a P3, we have the ability to say, hey, this 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:55.040 is our budget, and any delay or cost, that risk is offloaded off the city and it's on 00:19:55.040 --> 00:20:00.000 the private sector, and so they are incentivized to make sure that this project comes in and 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:05.400 under budget, and when I say under budget, that's contingency costs, any budget's going 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:10.120 to have a little bit of cost overrun, and that's a risk that we could probably share 00:20:10.120 --> 00:20:17.000 with both parties, and if we come in under budget, we both benefit from that. 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:25.240 Okay, so once again, we talk about a public-private procurement, it really exists on a spectrum, 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:32.080 so going back to there's no one public-private partnership model, it all depends on who your 00:20:32.080 --> 00:20:38.120 partner is and what's the best deal you can get, so if you look over here to the left, 00:20:38.120 --> 00:20:43.160 this is that traditional procurement model that I spoke about earlier, they call it design, 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:49.480 bid, build, and then over here on the right, this would be maybe how they do it in Canada, 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:55.320 where it's build, own, operate, the private sector is even owning and maintaining that 00:20:55.320 --> 00:20:58.240 asset, and the city is renting it from them. 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:02.800 That is not the intention of this, I think what we're talking about is something right 00:21:02.800 --> 00:21:09.120 here in the middle, and in this next slide, I've kind of done my own analysis, and I think 00:21:09.120 --> 00:21:12.880 this would be a potential way that this could work for us. 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:17.320 Once again, not to say that this would be the model, but I think this is a realistic 00:21:17.320 --> 00:21:23.920 way that it could be, so this is called the design, finance, build model, so what happened 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:28.720 in that first phase is we'd go out to that private sector partner, they do the design, 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:36.200 so really get that design piece in, making sure that all of those different mix of uses 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:42.840 are synergenic, working together, and they'll have that incentive to make sure that all 00:21:42.840 --> 00:21:46.920 the pieces work together, but at the same time, it's going to have to meet all of our 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:51.960 requirements that we're looking for, so we're in on that process in the very beginning. 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:57.000 Then, this is going back to the, I think the crucial piece here is when we look at the 00:21:57.000 --> 00:22:01.960 finance, is we would want to look for a private sector partner that's going to finance it 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:06.280 through the construction phase, so if you talk to any developer, that is where all the 00:22:06.280 --> 00:22:09.280 risk is, is during the construction phase, that's where we're going to have the cost 00:22:09.280 --> 00:22:14.800 overruns, and if they are the ones financing it through the construction phase, the risk 00:22:14.800 --> 00:22:19.220 is on them, and of course, they're actually going to get it financed, then they're going 00:22:19.220 --> 00:22:25.400 to build it according to our design, and then at the very end, we come in with the permanent 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:29.120 financing, which would be this bond, we're going to issue those bonds, and we're going 00:22:29.120 --> 00:22:35.000 to finance it permanently throughout the rest of the asset. 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:40.000 All right, so what's the recap, what's proposed here? 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:48.760 We're proposing a public-private partnership to get a much-needed city hall facility. 00:22:48.760 --> 00:22:52.740 We're going to expand Quaker Town Park down to McKinney. 00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:57.880 We're going to be actually a net positive in park space of Quaker Town Park there, provide 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:01.800 a mix of retail focused on local and small businesses. 00:23:01.800 --> 00:23:08.000 We're going to add additional public access to parking in a parking garage, and the new 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:14.840 facility is going to house an emergency operations center, all these facilities, repurposes that 00:23:14.840 --> 00:23:21.320 I already talked about, and so I think that's what's being proposed. 00:23:21.320 --> 00:23:23.600 Thank you. 00:23:23.600 --> 00:23:27.340 Remind us on the process here, and I imagine with this topic in particular, there's a lot 00:23:27.340 --> 00:23:31.360 of big thoughts, which is great. 00:23:31.360 --> 00:23:36.000 This section of it, what we're going to do is have an open time of Q&A, so let's restrict 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:39.160 to questions so that we can get staff feedback on this. 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:40.160 Then we're going to come back. 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:42.640 You have some time at the tables to debrief. 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.440 Then we're going to open it back up to the large group to have questions, comments, whatever. 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:50.920 That would be a time if you're wanting to make statements that don't have questions 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:51.920 for them. 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:57.400 So this portion, let's restrict it to questions, starting here with Mr. Crouch. 00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:06.280 Okay, I need an elevator speech for the voters on what you just said. 00:24:06.280 --> 00:24:07.280 Sure. 00:24:07.280 --> 00:24:11.960 I think the elevator speech is that there's a need. 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:14.320 We need a new city hall. 00:24:14.320 --> 00:24:16.360 We're growing. 00:24:16.360 --> 00:24:20.760 Our current facility is, A, not suitable for our current uses, but it's certainly not going 00:24:20.760 --> 00:24:23.440 to be suitable into the future. 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:30.680 The opportunity we have right now is we have property that's being underutilized, and there's 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:33.120 an opportunity to create more. 00:24:33.120 --> 00:24:39.440 I've gotten off the elevator about three times, so here's the problem, because you haven't 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:46.180 even gotten to the public-private partnership, which I think is a very difficult thing to 00:24:46.180 --> 00:24:52.480 explain to the voters at this point, and I'm still not sure what you're building. 00:24:52.480 --> 00:25:02.160 So I'm really confused as to what the plan is and how this thing's going to work, and 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:09.080 most of all, how to explain it to the voters, because you haven't explained it to me. 00:25:09.080 --> 00:25:10.080 Sure. 00:25:10.080 --> 00:25:16.560 I'll try to simplify it a little bit more. 00:25:16.560 --> 00:25:23.240 So there's an opportunity to add, in the complex, a new building that will centralize a lot 00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:29.400 of our current services, we can utilize more park space, and then we can help utilize more 00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:34.960 local and small businesses to be a part of that partnership and those retail spaces that 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:37.960 we talked about. 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:51.160 Well, and the flip side of this is, as we continue to grow, the reality is we're going 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:56.000 to be having to go out and rent office space, so we're in this city to house city workers 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:01.000 at some point in the near future, because we are kind of maxed out on facility space. 00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:04.800 That's the truth of the matter, right, so we're looking at an opportunity to have this 00:26:04.800 --> 00:26:08.520 utility space, which is mutually beneficial for not just the city, but for the community 00:26:08.520 --> 00:26:12.560 as a whole, and then, like I said before, to support those small businesses within our 00:26:12.560 --> 00:26:13.560 community. 00:26:13.560 --> 00:26:17.120 Got a question over here and then one back here. 00:26:17.120 --> 00:26:18.640 I have two quick questions. 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:23.400 First, has anybody done a study with the Quaker Town Park traffic? 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:28.960 You're talking about expanding that park quite a bit, do you have any idea how many people 00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:30.840 use that park per day? 00:26:30.840 --> 00:26:35.920 And then the second question I have is you're talking about building a multi-level parking 00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:39.420 lot, and is that going to be free parking? 00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:44.360 You're talking about increased tax revenue for the city, well, is that going to be on 00:26:44.360 --> 00:26:49.320 the backs of the people that are just using that facility to park, or since there's increased 00:26:49.320 --> 00:26:52.640 revenue, will that be spread out to pay for that parking lot? 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:53.640 Yes. 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:58.800 So if I'll go to your first one, so the city right now is in the process, and I think tomorrow 00:26:58.800 --> 00:27:03.160 the City Council is going to hear about this, is our downtown master plan. 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:06.840 Within that downtown master plan, they're going to be conducting a master plan for Quaker 00:27:06.840 --> 00:27:08.600 Town Park. 00:27:08.600 --> 00:27:15.880 So I think the great thing about this is that all of this ties into those broader plans 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.320 of the downtown master plan. 00:27:18.320 --> 00:27:23.000 Is there a definitive plan that you have to focus on that? 00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:28.080 And also with all of these new shiny retail spaces that are going to come in, I'm assuming 00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:33.200 they're going to be as expensive as everything else on the square and around the square, 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:34.640 or even a little bit more. 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.760 How are we going to make sure that local and small businesses can actually afford to rent 00:27:37.760 --> 00:27:38.760 those spaces? 00:27:38.760 --> 00:27:44.800 Well, so I think that is the exact advantage of it being a public-private partnership, 00:27:44.800 --> 00:27:45.800 right? 00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:50.920 Is that when we structure deals, we can say that this is the deal, and then this is what 00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:52.720 we want to get out of it. 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:57.160 Versus, if we're not a partner, and some other development comes in, they get to set 00:27:57.160 --> 00:27:58.160 the terms. 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:04.520 So in a public-private partnership, that's the deal, is that we get our own terms. 00:28:04.520 --> 00:28:10.320 What those terms look like, I can't tell you, because the hard part, right, and where the 00:28:10.320 --> 00:28:17.680 work is happening is finding a partner, finding a willing partner who has the same interests 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:23.720 as us, and making sure that in that deal zone, we get what we want, they get more where they 00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:25.720 want, and we got a win-win situation. 00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:28.480 I've got a question back here. 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:33.960 Yeah, so with the public-private partnership, what split are you foreseeing in terms of 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:40.760 city investment versus public investment, private sector investment, sorry, with $70 00:28:40.760 --> 00:28:44.800 million being the city portion, what would you expect for the private portion? 00:28:44.800 --> 00:28:53.240 I did some back-of-the-envelope math, and excluding land cost, I identified about $220-250 million 00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:58.120 in those parking garages alone, or sorry, $22 million to $25 million. 00:28:58.120 --> 00:29:07.120 Yeah, so I think the biggest piece that we bring to this whole project is the land cost. 00:29:07.120 --> 00:29:12.880 So what that, once again, what that investment split is going to look like, I can't tell 00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:16.040 you because this is conceptual. 00:29:16.040 --> 00:29:20.680 So we go out to the market, we find ourselves a private partner, we put out a request for 00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:27.800 proposal, and we are presented with proposals. 00:29:27.800 --> 00:29:30.960 What it's going to look like, we won't know until those proposals come in. 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:35.800 But the ask right now is the city's investment is $70 million. 00:29:35.800 --> 00:29:40.800 Most of that investment is going to be our own asset of the city hall. 00:29:40.800 --> 00:29:44.560 And then hopefully what we want to see when we partner on that is we're actually going 00:29:44.560 --> 00:29:46.600 to be leveraging that investment. 00:29:46.600 --> 00:29:50.720 So that investment is going to be leveraged with private investment, and then with the 00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:54.360 private investment, the benefit to us is that it's taxable. 00:29:54.360 --> 00:29:58.960 And so we will get those taxable revenues off the property, and we'll also get the 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:00.760 taxable revenue off the sales. 00:30:00.760 --> 00:30:05.600 So I wish I could tell you everybody hears exactly what that deal structure is going 00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:10.400 to look like, but we have to go out to the market and find out what it is. 00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:18.200 Oh, yes, I think one of the things that would help out, you said a word, and it kind of 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:25.800 like, and you lost me, and you know, I once was briefing a four-star general, and I said 00:30:25.800 --> 00:30:27.720 the word "never," and he said, "sit down." 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:30.440 He said, "I don't want to hear anything else from you." 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:36.000 So really what I really want to say is, is it any way you can get some small wins, because 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:42.680 the word that was used is the ADAs have never been addressed, and if, you know, if you can 00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:48.240 kind of like take and get some small wins, and then package it, and then kind of present 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:53.000 it from there and stuff, because it's like a lot at once, and it's like, well, wait a 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:54.200 minute, because here's my thing. 00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:57.640 When you said that, and then you came back around, you said, well, eventually we'll have 00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.200 somebody else to come in the building. 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:01.200 Well, guess what? 00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:02.880 They're going to inherit that. 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:06.960 So that's how I got it. 00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:11.800 Is there a question you want to ask? 00:31:11.800 --> 00:31:17.120 Yeah, just the small wins with the ADAs, because, you know, is it a plan to address that for 00:31:17.120 --> 00:31:18.120 the people? 00:31:18.120 --> 00:31:19.120 Yes. 00:31:19.120 --> 00:31:22.040 Is there a plan for ADA on the existing building? 00:31:22.040 --> 00:31:25.880 So there's very limited things that we can do in the existing building to change the 00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:29.080 ADA requirements without making serious structural exchanges. 00:31:29.080 --> 00:31:35.440 If you've ever walked into our city hall chambers, our council chambers, you have those stair 00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:36.440 steps that go up. 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:38.840 They're very narrow stairs, and you have the mechanical lift. 00:31:38.840 --> 00:31:43.480 To be able to take those stairs out and to flatten that out to make it a ramp is pretty 00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:44.480 significant. 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:48.680 Then you get inside the chamber, there's no way for people to get up top and come back 00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:52.720 down without having to go down again steps. 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:57.160 So if you're looking at how you can make those changes just within that one small corridor, 00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:04.160 you're looking at pretty significant changes that would end up altering the building as 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:10.240 it looks now, which may have some other consequences to it because it is designated as a historical 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:11.240 one. 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:14.600 Is there a question back here? 00:32:14.600 --> 00:32:15.600 Yes, sir. 00:32:15.600 --> 00:32:20.880 Have you looked at another location besides this one to put city hall? 00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:28.200 Well, this is the most beneficial because we already own the real estate, right? 00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:33.840 A big significant part of what we're trying to do is to be very thoughtful in where we 00:32:33.840 --> 00:32:37.160 do it because we own the land across the street. 00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:39.660 We own the land that we currently sit on. 00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:43.000 That takes out having to go out and purchase land to do this. 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:47.960 So what we're trying to do is not to have to go look around the city to acquire more 00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:51.000 land to be able to do this project. 00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:54.360 It just makes sense to tie it all together in the same conference. 00:32:54.360 --> 00:32:58.520 City owns a lot of land within the city limits itself. 00:32:58.520 --> 00:33:03.280 So that's why I was curious if you had a plan B, just in case, because this would also determine 00:33:03.280 --> 00:33:13.780 whether the senior center is raised, which would also expand QuikTown Park, correct? 00:33:13.780 --> 00:33:21.440 Maybe I'm not understanding the question, what would be the plan B if this doesn't pass? 00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:26.560 There is no plan B because we don't have funding, right? 00:33:26.560 --> 00:33:27.560 Question right here. 00:33:27.560 --> 00:33:28.560 Yeah. 00:33:28.560 --> 00:33:35.280 So when I looked at the plan, the first question I asked is, it looks like the building, if 00:33:35.280 --> 00:33:37.200 you're trying to sell me, right? 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:41.400 I looked at the building and you're over capacity now. 00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.300 When the building isn't completed, you will be over capacity. 00:33:44.300 --> 00:33:48.400 Five years, you will be over capacity, right? 00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:49.760 Based on your numbers. 00:33:49.760 --> 00:33:50.760 Is that true? 00:33:50.760 --> 00:33:51.760 That's not true. 00:33:51.760 --> 00:33:56.720 For the new part of the complex, we're talking about the new facility will not be, because 00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:03.960 you're using more, you have more storage in the new facility, we're going to be taking 00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:08.320 less people over than what's in City Hall currently, right? 00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:11.480 So there's going to be room to expand, to grow into it. 00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:16.320 Well, based on your slides, maybe I'm wrong, but based on your slides, you were over capacity. 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:18.520 Well, that was the current. 00:34:18.520 --> 00:34:19.520 The current. 00:34:19.520 --> 00:34:20.520 Where we're at now. 00:34:20.520 --> 00:34:26.800 Oh, you were saying that if we stayed in the current facility, you would be over. 00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:27.800 Right. 00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:29.760 We're already over. 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:30.760 Okay. 00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:31.760 Okay. 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:41.280 The second question then, so given the growth of Denton, what would be the point at which 00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:43.120 you're at capacity? 00:34:43.120 --> 00:34:44.120 Is it two years? 00:34:44.120 --> 00:34:45.120 Three years? 00:34:45.120 --> 00:34:46.120 No. 00:34:46.120 --> 00:34:47.120 This is focused for multi-generations. 00:34:47.120 --> 00:34:48.120 We're talking 30-year plan for it to grow. 00:34:48.120 --> 00:34:49.120 Because you're looking at, like I said, we're not going to be moving all the people that 00:34:49.120 --> 00:34:50.120 are in current City Hall now over to new facilities. 00:34:50.120 --> 00:35:03.820 So one part of this project is trying to forecast how we can leave ourselves room to grow, because 00:35:03.820 --> 00:35:08.400 historically, that's been a challenge for almost every governmental entity. 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:13.320 Again, we're trying to be very thoughtful in how we plan this out to make sure that 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.120 we're able to grow into it for years to come. 00:35:16.120 --> 00:35:20.840 So we're not coming back to the community again with another bond program in ten years 00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:23.140 saying, "Oh, we're out of room." 00:35:23.140 --> 00:35:30.880 I guess the question in my mind is, and I could be wrong, I don't really see the growth 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:42.000 expectation of Denton and how it is combined with that complex. 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:46.840 I think the City of Denton is going to grow much faster than we think, and then we're 00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:48.660 going to be out of capacity again. 00:35:48.660 --> 00:35:49.660 That's just mine. 00:35:49.660 --> 00:35:50.660 We're not focusing all of our city departments in this one building, right? 00:35:50.660 --> 00:35:51.660 So outside of just this project, we're looking at other projects and facilities to grow individual 00:35:51.660 --> 00:35:52.660 departments, whether that's DME, whether that's solid waste, whether that's water waste water. 00:35:52.660 --> 00:35:53.660 Because we know that we're about 151,000 now. 00:35:53.660 --> 00:35:54.660 We're looking at capacity probably 265,000. 00:35:54.660 --> 00:36:14.320 Around that number. 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:17.940 So city services are going to have to continue to grow along that way, but we're looking 00:36:17.940 --> 00:36:22.280 at, just like we do with the police department, a last bond package with the addition of a 00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:27.400 police station that leaves the police department a lot of room to grow for 20 or 30 years before 00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:28.400 that building becomes capacity. 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:36.080 That's just what we're doing, again, through this thoughtful process of not trying to make 00:36:36.080 --> 00:36:41.280 everything happen at once across the entire city, but trying to be very strategic in how 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.440 we're looking at the growth. 00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:50.480 Okay, my question, the first thing is to say that you have this great opportunity right 00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:53.440 now. 00:36:53.440 --> 00:37:00.140 If the city owns all this land, unless the city is planning on selling it, you will still 00:37:00.140 --> 00:37:06.400 have this great opportunity in two, three, five years. 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:13.840 So to use that statement, I think is kind of misleading, number one. 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:26.160 My question in regard to looking at a private-public partnership is Ross Perot Jr. commented about 00:37:26.160 --> 00:37:37.800 two or three weeks ago that he definitely sees a recession coming and that his corporations 00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:43.500 have been loaning funds to other developers. 00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:56.680 With that thought in mind, do you really think that within the next timeframe, quick timeframe, 00:37:56.680 --> 00:38:06.160 you would be able to come up with a partner? 00:38:06.160 --> 00:38:08.840 We won't know until we go to the market. 00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:12.760 I would say the one thing you said that would give me some hope is that if Ross Perot is 00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:16.880 loaning money to developers to build projects, I think he would expect that he's going to 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:19.480 get paid back at some point. 00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:24.600 So that's another advantage to the private sector, to partner with us. 00:38:24.600 --> 00:38:29.560 It gives them more incentive to do a deal structure with us, is that if we partner with 00:38:29.560 --> 00:38:35.960 them and we co-invest, that can help cover some of that financial gap. 00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:41.800 If I had a crystal ball, that'd be amazing, and I think I'd be a lot richer person. 00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:46.400 I might not be here, but what we'd want to do is we want to go out to the market and 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:54.160 find out what is there, and then once we get there, we can see those opportunities. 00:38:54.160 --> 00:38:58.080 Mr. Emerson, could you clarify the piece where you were talking about the retail pavilions 00:38:58.080 --> 00:38:59.740 that would come in? 00:38:59.740 --> 00:39:05.400 You mentioned that there would be tax revenue from that and sales tax revenue, so would 00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:09.800 the land still be owned by the city, and then the built structure would be owned by the 00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:10.800 private partner? 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:13.080 That's a good question. 00:39:13.080 --> 00:39:18.480 So I think the answer to that is, could be, the possibilities could be endless, right? 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:24.600 I mean, there's a possibility where the city owns that land, it could be there's an opportunity 00:39:24.600 --> 00:39:28.680 where the city owns those facilities and the city's collecting rent. 00:39:28.680 --> 00:39:36.120 It's a possibility that we dedicate that land in there or we sell that land to a private 00:39:36.120 --> 00:39:39.540 developer or we're just collecting taxable revenue. 00:39:39.540 --> 00:39:45.720 So it all really depends on that proposal that we get with that menu of proposals and 00:39:45.720 --> 00:39:51.840 selecting the deal that results in the best public benefit for the city. 00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:56.640 What kind of performance metrics would you tie into a deal like that, in general? 00:39:56.640 --> 00:40:01.040 I know you don't have specifics at this point, but what might that look like and then what 00:40:01.040 --> 00:40:05.200 would we do if that partner failed? 00:40:05.200 --> 00:40:12.040 So I think number one, the biggest performance metric is delivering a project, delivering 00:40:12.040 --> 00:40:19.360 whatever that retail piece is, and then putting those public benefit things in there, like 00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:23.480 here are the types of businesses we'd like to see, here's how much investment. 00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:29.760 And then with any development deal, there's a contract and if they fail to live up to 00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:31.960 that contract, there are stipulations. 00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:35.960 So once again, I couldn't sit here and tell you exactly what those would be. 00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:40.440 That'd be something that would be negotiated and worked out with our attorneys. 00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:43.400 But typically you see clawbacks. 00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:47.840 One tiny little more question, and that's quite a large amount of parking that this 00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:54.660 would add to this area, and I'm curious if there's been considerations of our sustainability 00:40:54.660 --> 00:40:59.440 goals in the city, our transportation and mobility goals that seems kind of counterintuitive 00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:04.560 to a lot of the goals that we're laying forth in other areas and other departments. 00:41:04.560 --> 00:41:09.960 So I think currently all of that space is parking, and it very well may be that that 00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:15.600 much going back into that model where you're cost sharing, it could be that when our private 00:41:15.600 --> 00:41:19.920 partner comes in here that you could be correct, it is over-parked. 00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:27.080 But I think currently as it exists, it is all parking, and in my opinion, underutilized 00:41:27.080 --> 00:41:29.960 and not providing the best public benefit. 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:36.560 I think that's the opportunity is to exchange parking for park space, exchange parking for 00:41:36.560 --> 00:41:43.000 people to work, people to live, and people to shop, play. 00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:46.240 I have a question back here. 00:41:46.240 --> 00:41:49.920 Assuming that the cost on this that would go on the bond package is still sitting at 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:53.120 $70 million, is that correct? 00:41:53.120 --> 00:41:54.960 Yes. 00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:59.520 That did not include the parking garage when it was presented to Council on March 7th, 00:41:59.520 --> 00:42:06.320 which is a work session that everyone in this room should go back and watch. 00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:07.480 Very informative. 00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:11.720 So who's going to pay for the parking garage? 00:42:11.720 --> 00:42:20.280 So the way this would work, and also I want to emphasize, this is not a plan. 00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:29.140 This is a concept of the possibilities of how this property could be used differently. 00:42:29.140 --> 00:42:34.480 When we go out, whatever the private partner, when we work at that, we look at the design, 00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:41.360 we look at the proposal, this, I guarantee you, it will not be this, because we don't 00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:42.840 have a private partner right now. 00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:53.240 So I want to emphasize, this is purely conceptual, but the idea would be if we have $70 million, 00:42:53.240 --> 00:42:57.960 we would go out to the market and say, "This is what we are willing to invest. 00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:01.000 What can you bring to the table?" 00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:07.160 And then whatever that would be, that would be their investment, and then the uses, which 00:43:07.160 --> 00:43:11.340 I would imagine a parking structure is going to be in there, and I think the question was 00:43:11.340 --> 00:43:12.920 asked earlier. 00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:14.520 How much is someone going to invest? 00:43:14.520 --> 00:43:20.280 I can't tell you exactly what that would be, but we would go and we'd look at those proposals 00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:25.400 and we'd find one that maximizes the benefit to the public. 00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:30.240 Well when it was discussed at the Council meeting, the total package was going to come 00:43:30.240 --> 00:43:36.000 to about $130 million, so it's almost doubled, and I just really wonder about your finding 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:40.880 a partner that's going to cough up that much more, otherwise we're going to have to come 00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:47.520 back with another bond package to put the parking lot on it, parking garage. 00:43:47.520 --> 00:43:53.400 It just seems kind of half-baked to me. 00:43:53.400 --> 00:44:11.400 Okay, I guess my question piggybacks off of that, in your conceptual drawings and planning, 00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:19.480 what is the total amount of money that you need to do what you conceptually planned? 00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:26.320 Because you said the cities is $70 million, so it's not identified in here what that $70 00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:31.800 million will pay for, but I know it says new facility parking, so conceptually in your 00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:38.720 mind of what you all have planned, she said $130 million, would $130 million suffice today 00:44:38.720 --> 00:44:41.360 for what you're trying to complete? 00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:47.200 Because I think from the very beginning, the young man said, "We don't know what you're 00:44:47.200 --> 00:44:48.200 building. 00:44:48.200 --> 00:44:49.480 We don't know how much you cost." 00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:54.800 Well, we see that there's a new facility in parking lots and mixed-use facilities. 00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:59.840 What is the total amount conceptually of what that might cost, or do you have any idea of 00:44:59.840 --> 00:45:00.840 what that may be? 00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:09.440 So we do, and from the last presentation, the entirety of the package that they estimated 00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:20.280 was at $111 million with the parking structure. 00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:27.440 So it doesn't seem like there's a hard and fast rule that the city manager's office and 00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:30.680 the city council chambers have to be in the same building, right? 00:45:30.680 --> 00:45:35.200 There's functionalities that go together, city manager, city attorney, public affairs, 00:45:35.200 --> 00:45:39.320 all those kind of, they ought to be co-located, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the 00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:43.260 same footprint as the city council chambers. 00:45:43.260 --> 00:45:49.040 It also seems like city council chambers have very specific use square footage, right? 00:45:49.040 --> 00:45:52.100 You only use it a handful of times, maybe a couple of times a week. 00:45:52.100 --> 00:45:53.600 It's got a very particular purpose. 00:45:53.600 --> 00:45:55.720 You can't really use it for a ton of other things. 00:45:55.720 --> 00:45:59.320 You can't let somebody's office in there when the city council's not meeting. 00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:05.000 So couldn't it make sense, or couldn't it be an option that we address one issue, which 00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:10.840 is a lack of space with a new office building that's got space for all the people, and we 00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:15.080 address another issue, which is ADA accessibility, which we've got to address in the building 00:46:15.080 --> 00:46:20.480 anyway, regardless of who locates there, and still keep city council in the same chambers. 00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:25.960 I mean, can't we do both, and can it even save us some money not having to dedicate 00:46:25.960 --> 00:46:29.880 a whole bunch of square footage to tables and chairs that we only use a couple times 00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:30.880 a week? 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:36.760 If I think you're asking us a forecast cost that we have no idea about right now, right? 00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:40.720 And then what functionally does that look like to how do you, we're going to have to 00:46:40.720 --> 00:46:44.840 look at where are we going to have alternate city council meetings while those renovations 00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:47.920 are taking place, if we choose to say where we're at. 00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:50.280 Because that's not going to be like a one week deal. 00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:53.960 That's going to be something that's going to close the chambers down for a considerable 00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:54.960 amount of time. 00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.960 We look at having to reconfigure what's inside there now. 00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:02.960 So yes, that can be on the table, absolutely. 00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:09.000 We have to look at what that cost benefit might be to go in there and structurally change 00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:13.280 the entirety of inside there while we're trying to do both. 00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:18.920 As a follow up to that, couldn't an option be funding a renovation of our other city 00:47:18.920 --> 00:47:25.040 hall and housing there temporarily, and then we renovate the existing city hall, and then 00:47:25.040 --> 00:47:30.840 while we have that contractor there, they're building up a new city hall annex, or office 00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:31.840 built, or whatever it is. 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:38.280 I mean, aren't there kind of more options than just new city hall? 00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:42.880 Like Wayne said, we're talking about approving from this committee an amount of money to 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.240 ask the voters to approve to borrow. 00:47:45.240 --> 00:47:50.600 Not necessarily a program of construction or how the deal is going to be structured. 00:47:50.600 --> 00:47:55.160 We're approving how much goes on the credit card, not what is the final product. 00:47:55.160 --> 00:47:56.160 Right? 00:47:56.160 --> 00:47:57.160 Absolutely. 00:47:57.160 --> 00:48:01.240 I think one of the first questions that I answered up here was the reason why both of 00:48:01.240 --> 00:48:05.840 those are in the bond proposal is because we don't know which proposition is going to 00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:06.840 pass, right? 00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:11.760 We can't forecast if City Hall West is going to go through the process, or if this is, 00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:16.560 so at this point we have to be flexible, and absolutely everything's on the table. 00:48:16.560 --> 00:48:19.280 So if neither one of them go through, then what do we do? 00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:21.680 Then we have to go to plan C, right? 00:48:21.680 --> 00:48:23.320 So nothing's off the table. 00:48:23.320 --> 00:48:28.720 Both of these proposals are in there knowing that one may be both pass, one may be both 00:48:28.720 --> 00:48:32.840 fail, but we have to be nimble in how we look at moving forward. 00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:35.080 Okay, we're going to do three more questions. 00:48:35.080 --> 00:48:39.640 I know there might be more, but just to get us moving and have some table talk, and then 00:48:39.640 --> 00:48:41.640 we'll come back and there'll be time for additional. 00:48:41.640 --> 00:48:45.720 So one, two, and then whoever gets the third. 00:48:45.720 --> 00:48:53.440 I'm under the impression that this whole concept was developed by you all, and that you've 00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:56.320 had no input from any developer. 00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:58.340 Is that correct? 00:48:58.340 --> 00:49:03.180 No development by any outside developer? 00:49:03.180 --> 00:49:04.960 This is all your ideas. 00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:13.280 Yeah, this is, basically this was just a test fit exercise to see here's the space, here's 00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:16.560 the site that we have, what could fit on the site. 00:49:16.560 --> 00:49:26.040 So this is a test fit you want us to approve of $111 million. 00:49:26.040 --> 00:49:28.960 So I think that's the step that we are in the process. 00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:33.920 Please have no discussions with outside developers. 00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:34.920 No discussions. 00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:35.920 No, no. 00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:36.920 We can't. 00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:43.120 I think it's important to know that we can't go out and have conversations with outside 00:49:43.120 --> 00:49:46.160 developers before we're approved to do that. 00:49:46.160 --> 00:49:55.320 But then how did you gain the knowledge and the foresight to develop this kind of plan? 00:49:55.320 --> 00:50:03.080 This concept, this is just a conceptual plan done by an architectural firm that works in 00:50:03.080 --> 00:50:04.080 this development. 00:50:04.080 --> 00:50:10.280 But this is just a concept that is worth $111 million. 00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:16.520 Well now the $111 million is the cost estimates for this, just the City Hall facility with 00:50:16.520 --> 00:50:18.280 a parking structure. 00:50:18.280 --> 00:50:20.880 Those are the cost estimates, that number. 00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:22.560 And I am really confused. 00:50:22.560 --> 00:50:23.560 I'm sorry. 00:50:23.560 --> 00:50:26.640 I've got a question back here. 00:50:26.640 --> 00:50:31.440 This is a question kind of from a business money person. 00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:38.520 A, is there some type of place, a city here in Texas that you can point to and say this 00:50:38.520 --> 00:50:46.440 P3 type of project proposal has been implemented, where there's been a public and private partnership, 00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:52.400 we have a public space for city services, and then we have some retail space. 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:55.880 So once again, I don't think it's the exact same model. 00:50:55.880 --> 00:51:01.680 I think conceptually, if you were to think about it conceptually, is if you look at South 00:51:01.680 --> 00:51:06.480 Lake, they have a town center, and if you look right around there, they have all of 00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:07.480 that retail piece. 00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:14.480 So it's kind of this town center where people come to gather, they do their business function, 00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:17.760 and then around you have the commercial activity. 00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:24.200 So it's a great example, but it was not done under a P3 procurement process. 00:51:24.200 --> 00:51:26.800 It's relatively new in the state of Texas. 00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:32.960 So probably the closest would be to Travis County Courthouse was done under a P3 model, 00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:39.140 which would be the closest to what we're talking about, but once again, not all of those elements 00:51:39.140 --> 00:51:47.920 because the proposal kind of here is a combination between that P3 procurement model and a public-private 00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:48.920 partnership. 00:51:48.920 --> 00:51:54.080 So certainly those two things have happened within the state, but not necessarily right 00:51:54.080 --> 00:51:55.720 there together at the same time. 00:51:55.720 --> 00:52:00.800 The purpose of that question was getting back to the business aspect of it, that there's 00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:12.080 a chance that that business retail space doesn't work, that money has been spent on that, and 00:52:12.080 --> 00:52:17.080 for whatever reason, that doesn't work. 00:52:17.080 --> 00:52:22.040 The market predicts winners and losers, not people in this room, not people in City Hall 00:52:22.040 --> 00:52:23.040 or anything like that. 00:52:23.040 --> 00:52:28.160 There's just a concern that I'm not against the proposal, the P3 proposal, or the amount 00:52:28.160 --> 00:52:36.920 of money spent so much as I am, that the partnership fails in some level. 00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:40.440 And sure, and that's the risk, right? 00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:44.360 And so that goes back to when we talk about risk sharing, right? 00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:51.280 So we want the private sector to come out there and do that due diligence and share 00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:53.000 that risk with us. 00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:59.360 So that investment possibly, once again, can't tell you the exact details of it, but we'd 00:52:59.360 --> 00:53:04.400 look for them to have skin in the game so that they're at risk too and it's not just 00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:06.120 the public sector at risk. 00:53:06.120 --> 00:53:10.720 And then once again, could we reuse those facilities? 00:53:10.720 --> 00:53:17.120 That would be a good deal structure to have if that retail doesn't work out, we can reuse 00:53:17.120 --> 00:53:20.080 those facilities for a public purpose. 00:53:20.080 --> 00:53:26.080 Should we need more growth and need more public facilities? 00:53:26.080 --> 00:53:27.080 That was two. 00:53:27.080 --> 00:53:28.080 Is there a third? 00:53:28.080 --> 00:53:29.080 We can move on to table talk. 00:53:29.080 --> 00:53:30.080 Let's do that. 00:53:30.080 --> 00:53:31.080 Table talk. 00:53:31.080 --> 00:53:36.960 So let's spend some time after you've heard those questions and answers, reflect, debrief, 00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:43.880 and then we'll come back and have some time for additional comments and questions as needed. 00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:50.880 [inaudible] 00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:20.880 [inaudible] 00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:27.880 [inaudible] 00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:34.880 [inaudible] 00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:44.880 [inaudible] 00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:54.880 [inaudible] 00:54:54.880 --> 00:55:04.880 [inaudible] 00:55:04.880 --> 00:55:24.880 [inaudible] 00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:34.880 [inaudible] 00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:54.880 [inaudible] 00:55:54.880 --> 00:56:04.880 [inaudible] 00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:29.880 [inaudible] 00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:39.880 [inaudible] 00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:49.880 [inaudible] 00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:59.880 [inaudible] 00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:19.880 [inaudible] 00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:29.880 [inaudible] 00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:49.880 [inaudible] 00:57:49.880 --> 00:57:59.880 [inaudible] 00:57:59.880 --> 00:58:19.880 [inaudible] 00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:29.880 [inaudible] 00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:49.880 [inaudible] 00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:59.880 [inaudible] 00:58:59.880 --> 00:59:19.880 [inaudible] 00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:29.880 [inaudible] 00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:39.880 [inaudible] 00:59:39.880 --> 00:59:49.880 [inaudible] 00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:59.880 [inaudible] 00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:09.880 [inaudible] 01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:19.880 [inaudible] 01:00:19.880 --> 01:00:29.880 [inaudible] 01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:49.880 [inaudible] 01:00:49.880 --> 01:00:59.880 [inaudible] 01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:09.880 [inaudible] 01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:19.880 [inaudible] 01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:29.880 [inaudible] 01:01:29.880 --> 01:01:39.880 [inaudible] 01:01:39.880 --> 01:01:59.880 [inaudible] 01:01:59.880 --> 01:02:09.880 [inaudible] 01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:19.880 [inaudible] 01:02:19.880 --> 01:02:29.880 [inaudible] 01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:39.880 [inaudible] 01:02:39.880 --> 01:02:49.880 [inaudible] 01:02:49.880 --> 01:03:09.880 [inaudible] 01:03:09.880 --> 01:03:19.880 [inaudible] 01:03:19.880 --> 01:03:29.880 [inaudible] 01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:39.880 [inaudible] 01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:59.880 [inaudible] 01:03:59.880 --> 01:04:09.880 [inaudible] 01:04:09.880 --> 01:04:29.880 [inaudible] 01:04:29.880 --> 01:04:39.880 [inaudible] 01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:59.880 [inaudible] 01:04:59.880 --> 01:05:09.880 [inaudible] 01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:29.880 [inaudible] 01:05:29.880 --> 01:05:39.880 [inaudible] 01:05:39.880 --> 01:05:49.880 [inaudible] 01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:59.880 [inaudible] 01:05:59.880 --> 01:06:23.880 [inaudible] 01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:33.880 [inaudible] 01:06:33.880 --> 01:06:57.880 [inaudible] 01:06:57.880 --> 01:07:07.880 [inaudible] 01:07:07.880 --> 01:07:17.880 [inaudible] 01:07:17.880 --> 01:07:27.880 [inaudible] 01:07:27.880 --> 01:07:37.880 [inaudible] 01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:47.880 [inaudible] 01:07:47.880 --> 01:08:07.880 [inaudible] 01:08:07.880 --> 01:08:17.880 [inaudible] 01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:37.880 [inaudible] 01:08:37.880 --> 01:08:47.880 [inaudible] 01:08:47.880 --> 01:09:07.880 [inaudible] 01:09:07.880 --> 01:09:17.880 [inaudible] 01:09:17.880 --> 01:09:41.880 [inaudible] 01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:51.880 [inaudible] 01:09:51.880 --> 01:10:15.880 [inaudible] 01:10:15.880 --> 01:10:25.880 [inaudible] 01:10:25.880 --> 01:10:49.880 [inaudible] 01:10:49.880 --> 01:10:59.880 [inaudible] 01:10:59.880 --> 01:11:23.880 [inaudible] 01:11:23.880 --> 01:11:33.880 [inaudible] 01:11:33.880 --> 01:11:57.880 [inaudible] 01:11:57.880 --> 01:12:07.880 [inaudible] 01:12:07.880 --> 01:12:17.880 [inaudible] 01:12:17.880 --> 01:12:27.880 [inaudible] 01:12:27.880 --> 01:12:51.880 [inaudible] 01:12:51.880 --> 01:13:07.880 I think this discussion about the public private, the bit of the concept, not only of the city hall, but everything that has been presented to us. 01:13:07.880 --> 01:13:19.880 I'm not sure in regard to what the, and this isn't, well I don't know if this is a question or not, but it's an overall understanding. 01:13:19.880 --> 01:13:35.880 City council gave us a directive to hear from staff what they see as the requirements to put on a bond. 01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:57.880 Is part of that going into the micromanagement minutiae of okay, it's public private, you do the notatorium, you can put in an HVAC and you can do more flat water, but don't do this. 01:13:57.880 --> 01:14:05.880 You do city hall west and you fix it so you can do this, but not that. 01:14:05.880 --> 01:14:13.880 You can move the library, you don't move the library, et cetera. 01:14:13.880 --> 01:14:23.880 Personally, and if anyone agrees with me, fine, if you don't, I apologize for taking up your time right now. 01:14:23.880 --> 01:14:45.880 But I think we're kind of getting a little bit into the micromanagement, the minutiae, and one of the reasons we're doing it is because so many of the proposals when we do ask a question, well, we'll tell you later, we'll do this or that. 01:14:45.880 --> 01:14:51.880 So if I'm coming from the wrong and this gets me off the committee, so be it. 01:14:51.880 --> 01:15:08.880 But it's really hard, you know, if I want to build a house and I say I have X amount of money, I want to know what is going to be done. 01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:22.880 So for those of you who don't know me, I'm Sarah Hensley, I'm the city manager, and the answer to that is no. We are not oh well this, oh well that, no. I told you from the very beginning, we're going to give you the facts of what we are doing. 01:15:22.880 --> 01:15:29.880 The answer to this is you can take $70 million and do what you want to with it to build a new city hall and we get what we get out of it. 01:15:29.880 --> 01:15:38.880 You do not have to do a P3, period. You have that choice. You can say put $70 million on the bond, don't put any dollars on the bond for this project. 01:15:38.880 --> 01:15:44.880 You are the group that picks the projects and the money associated with those projects. 01:15:44.880 --> 01:15:49.880 You are asking us questions in detail. We're answering those questions the best we can. 01:15:49.880 --> 01:15:55.880 When you do a P3 project, you will have to have partners. That's why it's called public-private partnership. 01:15:55.880 --> 01:16:05.880 We don't know who those people are. Because it's so confusing, I would highly recommend that maybe you don't focus on that. Maybe that's not what you want to do right now. 01:16:05.880 --> 01:16:12.880 And if you don't want to recommend $70 million, don't recommend $70 million. That's your responsibility, not ours. 01:16:12.880 --> 01:16:18.880 All we're doing is answering your questions, giving you the best information we can, the factual information. 01:16:18.880 --> 01:16:26.880 We're not trying to hide anything. We're not trying to cover anything up. We're trying to give you facts so you can make an informed decision. 01:16:26.880 --> 01:16:32.880 And that's what we do every day with counsel, facts, so you can make an informed decision. 01:16:32.880 --> 01:16:40.880 So I do take it a little bit of offense that you kind of accuse staff of stuff like that because I work with them every day and they're the most transparent people I've ever seen. 01:16:40.880 --> 01:16:42.880 And I personally take offense to that. I'm sorry. 01:16:42.880 --> 01:16:46.880 I apologize. I did not mean it as an offense. 01:16:46.880 --> 01:16:57.880 Okay, let's get some other comments on here. Let's take two more comments on this topic and then we'll move on. 01:16:57.880 --> 01:17:09.880 I think part of the problem is too many ifs and buts. We don't know, well, it could be this or it could be that, and that's frustrating. 01:17:09.880 --> 01:17:18.880 It's frustrating when we don't have some clear sense of where we are. 01:17:18.880 --> 01:17:28.880 To me, it almost feels like, and I know this is not what you're thinking, but it almost feels like it's a sacrificial lamb. 01:17:28.880 --> 01:17:36.880 We'll throw this one out there for the voters to pass other stuff because this is too fuzzy. 01:17:36.880 --> 01:17:44.880 It's not what you're thinking right now the way that you have presented it to put it to the voters. 01:17:44.880 --> 01:17:53.880 Another comment. Mr. Davis. 01:17:53.880 --> 01:18:01.880 So I just want to kind of let staff know, especially kind of where I'm falling on this after the whole conversation. 01:18:01.880 --> 01:18:10.880 That we need more work space, the work-a-day space, the places where people actually are 40-plus hours a week. 01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:21.880 What I worry about is if we put all of this in front of the voters without more of a plan, and I understand part of that is because you get a partner and then the plan flexes, right? 01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:28.880 But instead of doing that on the front end and then asking voters for the amount of money it's going to take to get that deal done, 01:18:28.880 --> 01:18:34.880 and they do it this way and they reject it, we don't get to use COs to build a new city building. 01:18:34.880 --> 01:18:37.880 We don't get to use other alternative methods of financing. 01:18:37.880 --> 01:18:44.880 We're stuck until the next bond issue or until that time expires where we do get to use COs and other stuff. 01:18:44.880 --> 01:18:49.880 If we put just what we have something of a plan for, we need space. 01:18:49.880 --> 01:18:55.880 X number of square feet at X number of dollars a square foot, and we put that in front of the voters. 01:18:55.880 --> 01:19:01.880 That's something that can pass. The rest of it, the who's involved, nobody's involved, what's the plan, 01:19:01.880 --> 01:19:07.880 we don't have the full plan yet because you can't have a full plan yet in this method of procurement, all that kind of stuff. 01:19:07.880 --> 01:19:13.880 I think it puts on a bad footing to pass and makes it hard to finance what we really, really need, 01:19:13.880 --> 01:19:22.880 which is more square feet, more bathrooms, more work space, and all that kind of stuff. 01:19:22.880 --> 01:19:27.880 All right, well, now's the time when we're going to leave a controversial subject 01:19:27.880 --> 01:19:33.880 and move on to another controversial subject with affordable housing. 01:19:52.880 --> 01:20:00.880 Good evening. I'm Dana Shaw. I'm the director of community services here for the city of Denver. 01:20:00.880 --> 01:20:03.880 I'm here to chat with you guys about affordable housing. 01:20:03.880 --> 01:20:12.880 Not all of it. 01:20:12.880 --> 01:20:24.880 How's this? Any better? 01:20:24.880 --> 01:20:32.880 Is this better? You wouldn't know I used to be a camp director. 01:20:32.880 --> 01:20:36.880 My name is Danny Shaw. I'm the director of community services here for the city of Denton. 01:20:36.880 --> 01:20:40.880 I'm here to chat with you guys about affordable housing today. 01:20:40.880 --> 01:20:45.880 So the city has done a comprehensive housing needs assessment and a market value analysis, 01:20:45.880 --> 01:20:52.880 and it won't be any surprise to you all that the market analysis and the needs assessment said 01:20:52.880 --> 01:20:57.880 we need more rental housing for people, especially those folks who are below 50% AMI, 01:20:57.880 --> 01:21:02.880 that we need more affordable mortgages for people to be homeowners, 01:21:02.880 --> 01:21:05.880 and that we need housing support for seniors. 01:21:05.880 --> 01:21:08.880 We have an aging population. We need to make sure that they can age in place 01:21:08.880 --> 01:21:10.880 and making sure we have supports for them to do so, 01:21:10.880 --> 01:21:15.880 as well as being able to interact with services around them and more access to that. 01:21:15.880 --> 01:21:19.880 We also do need a permanent supportive housing, additional housing units, 01:21:19.880 --> 01:21:23.880 and transitional housing for people with disabilities and people who are experiencing homelessness. 01:21:23.880 --> 01:21:29.880 There are folks who won't ever be able to earn the incomes that they need to afford our current housing in the community, 01:21:29.880 --> 01:21:32.880 and so making sure we have that available is important. 01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:37.880 And then making sure that every household has an opportunity to look and find affordable housing 01:21:37.880 --> 01:21:43.880 in areas of opportunity, where they can find good jobs, places where the schools are high performing, 01:21:43.880 --> 01:21:46.880 places where they can recreate and do all of the things that we can do all across the city 01:21:46.880 --> 01:21:49.880 and just making sure everyone has the same choice. 01:21:49.880 --> 01:21:54.880 The needs assessment at the time, it was done just before COVID, 01:21:54.880 --> 01:21:59.880 so even now as you can see the data on the top of the screen as far as the dollar amount that was projected then, 01:21:59.880 --> 01:22:02.880 it's still the same based on incomes in our community, 01:22:02.880 --> 01:22:07.880 but the prices are even escalating as we sit here right now today. 01:22:07.880 --> 01:22:12.880 So from that we developed a housing strategic toolkit, 01:22:12.880 --> 01:22:18.880 and that toolkit has five strategies and 17 activities to help us work towards 01:22:18.880 --> 01:22:24.880 our commitment to incentivizing our private market to meet those needs in the community. 01:22:24.880 --> 01:22:31.880 And it's fairly comprehensive, it's also looking at how we leverage the tools that we already have 01:22:31.880 --> 01:22:34.880 and not particularly looking at big sweeping changes, 01:22:34.880 --> 01:22:37.880 but how do we look at how do we incentivize this through the development. 01:22:37.880 --> 01:22:42.880 So infill, making sure that we're looking at our vacant and underutilized properties 01:22:42.880 --> 01:22:45.880 and using those for their most effective use. 01:22:45.880 --> 01:22:50.880 Looking at zoning relief and variances to make sure our zoning code is inclusive 01:22:50.880 --> 01:22:53.880 for all of our households regardless of income. 01:22:53.880 --> 01:22:59.880 Looking at increasing capacity and resources, so that means making sure all of our development community, 01:22:59.880 --> 01:23:04.880 especially our nonprofit development community, has the tools that they need to move into this space 01:23:04.880 --> 01:23:07.880 and be developers and create more affordable housing. 01:23:07.880 --> 01:23:09.880 And then how do we minimize displacement? 01:23:09.880 --> 01:23:12.880 How do we make sure that people don't get pushed out of their neighborhoods 01:23:12.880 --> 01:23:15.880 when we start to make improvements and incentives there? 01:23:15.880 --> 01:23:18.880 And then of course we have a lot of conversation to have. 01:23:18.880 --> 01:23:21.880 We're starting that today with you for the housing bond. 01:23:21.880 --> 01:23:25.880 We have a Discuss Stenton page where we're starting to talk about affordable housing 01:23:25.880 --> 01:23:28.880 because there's going to be a lot of discussion that we have to have 01:23:28.880 --> 01:23:31.880 and some of it's going to be hard, some of it's going to be easy, 01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:36.880 but we do have to have those conversations together and we can't wait any longer to do so. 01:23:36.880 --> 01:23:43.880 Within the activities themselves, we're looking at very specific and targeted tools to incentivize that behavior. 01:23:43.880 --> 01:23:45.880 And I'm not going to go into all of those today, 01:23:45.880 --> 01:23:49.880 but I do want to kind of talk through a couple of them that we're working on right now. 01:23:49.880 --> 01:23:53.880 The biggest one we just approved was our rental repair grant, 01:23:53.880 --> 01:24:00.880 and that goal is to ask landlords or people who are investors to purchase properties that may not be so great, 01:24:00.880 --> 01:24:06.880 bring them up to code, bring them up to livability in exchange for that grant, in exchange for affordability. 01:24:06.880 --> 01:24:12.880 So they would make that unit affordable to an income renderer or buyer. 01:24:12.880 --> 01:24:16.880 Let's see. And then we're working on a couple of things altogether at the same time. 01:24:16.880 --> 01:24:19.880 Our developer incentive package is the biggest thing we're working on right now, 01:24:19.880 --> 01:24:25.880 and that is really looking at how we encourage infill small home communities through the zoning code 01:24:25.880 --> 01:24:31.880 and using incentives for developers to create such tools in housing. 01:24:31.880 --> 01:24:34.880 I wanted to show you this not to go into a big detail, 01:24:34.880 --> 01:24:40.880 but just to give you a better explanation to understand how income is tied to rent limits. 01:24:40.880 --> 01:24:43.880 So when you look at this chart, this is the chart that HUD approves every year, 01:24:43.880 --> 01:24:47.880 and this is the tool that we utilize in the department that I work in to determine 01:24:47.880 --> 01:24:52.880 if people are eligible for programs, whether it's housing or social services. 01:24:52.880 --> 01:24:57.880 And so you're going to hear different numbers, like Scott provided you some numbers 01:24:57.880 --> 01:25:00.880 about what the area median income was. It was slightly different than this one. 01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:06.880 But this is the tool we use, and so for consistency, we use this when we're talking about affordability as well. 01:25:06.880 --> 01:25:13.880 So what this is showing you is information based on household size and income and geography. 01:25:13.880 --> 01:25:19.880 So this is the Dallas MSA. So in New York, these numbers will look very different than this one, right? 01:25:19.880 --> 01:25:24.880 And then what we do is then determine, based on household size, where someone is in their income category, 01:25:24.880 --> 01:25:30.880 and that helps us determine eligibility. And then hopefully we'll make a little more sense on the next slide. 01:25:30.880 --> 01:25:33.880 So let me break this up into kind of three chunks. 01:25:33.880 --> 01:25:38.880 Right now, based on our census data and our consolidated planning that we're doing, 01:25:38.880 --> 01:25:48.880 we see about 49,000 housing units in the city. Within that, about 48 percent are rental and about 44 percent are owner. 01:25:48.880 --> 01:25:51.880 Now, again, our economic development data will be slightly different than this. 01:25:51.880 --> 01:25:55.880 Our development services data will be slightly different because we just use some different data tools. 01:25:55.880 --> 01:26:01.880 But we're all about pretty close to 50/50, typically in our renter and owner populations. 01:26:01.880 --> 01:26:09.880 Of those 49,000 units, only about 6,000 are affordable to people making 80 percent or below AMI. 01:26:09.880 --> 01:26:11.880 That's not a lot of housing units. 01:26:11.880 --> 01:26:19.880 Nationally, there's only about 29 units per hundred available to people who are making 30 percent or below the AMI. 01:26:19.880 --> 01:26:27.880 Within Denton, our household composition, almost 50 percent of our households make less than 80 percent. 01:26:27.880 --> 01:26:32.880 Thirty percent of those are making 50 percent or below. 01:26:32.880 --> 01:26:39.880 So we have enough people in our population who are needing this assistance, making sure that they have housing based on their income. 01:26:39.880 --> 01:26:44.880 And then I gave you an example on the right-hand side to show you what it looks like for a household of three. 01:26:44.880 --> 01:26:48.880 So this is a mom. She's a retail cashier. She has two kids. 01:26:48.880 --> 01:26:52.880 She's making $27,900 based on the chart I showed you, right? 01:26:52.880 --> 01:26:57.880 If we use the rent standard, she should only pay 30 percent of her income. 01:26:57.880 --> 01:27:01.880 That means she can only pay for $698 in rent. 01:27:01.880 --> 01:27:04.880 That's a unicorn, right? That doesn't exist. 01:27:04.880 --> 01:27:12.880 So she's going to be cost burdened because she's probably going to now have to pay more than 30 percent or even more than 50 percent, being severely cost burdened. 01:27:12.880 --> 01:27:19.880 That means for every other decision she has to make, she's challenged whether or not she pays rent or she feeds her kids or whatever. 01:27:19.880 --> 01:27:28.880 So this is why affordable housing is so important in our community and why not everyone's going to make the same income, and we need to make sure there are housing options available. 01:27:28.880 --> 01:27:38.880 So it turns out, though, that building affordable housing isn't especially affordable, right? 01:27:38.880 --> 01:27:45.880 So what we need to be looking at, and for me, it's about bringing that development cost down however we do it. 01:27:45.880 --> 01:27:58.880 So that means we need to lower construction costs, and that's looking at cost-effective building solutions, things that we don't typically build right now but can make available through our tools, empowering our local builders. 01:27:58.880 --> 01:28:07.880 I talked about we're working with nonprofit partners already, Habitat for Humanity, Denton Affordable Housing Corp, the Housing Authority. 01:28:07.880 --> 01:28:15.880 We provide grants to them to help them maintain or create new affordable housing, and that's important, but we've got to do more of that. 01:28:15.880 --> 01:28:21.880 We also need to work with our private development community. It's important. They have the most money and the access to it. 01:28:21.880 --> 01:28:29.880 It's not something that the city can do alone. We have to have these partnerships and these collaborations, and for us to do that means we can incentivize it, though. 01:28:29.880 --> 01:28:36.880 The city does have a role to play. We do have some ability to make some fluctuations, lower some barriers to make sure that developers can do what we need them to do, 01:28:36.880 --> 01:28:44.880 including creating even more market rate because that will also lessen the pressure on our housing system. 01:28:44.880 --> 01:28:49.880 We need to, again, like I talked about in Phil, is just using our existing land and unused buildings better. 01:28:49.880 --> 01:29:02.880 We can't leave it sitting around. We can use it. We can use it effectively, and we can reduce pressure on more rural areas of our community as well by making it happen in areas where you already have infrastructure so it's cheaper to build. 01:29:02.880 --> 01:29:09.880 There's a lot of creative things that we can do just through incentive-based policy, and then for larger developments, we need to have a seat at the table in some way. 01:29:09.880 --> 01:29:16.880 Wayne alluded to it in his previous presentation. I think it's important to have that. We can't just do development agreements. 01:29:16.880 --> 01:29:27.880 We need to have some incentives that bring us to the table so that developers want to work with us and so that we can have them create affordability in everything that they do, not just some developments in the community. 01:29:27.880 --> 01:29:32.880 Then, of course, we need to preserve those moderately priced homes that we already have. 01:29:32.880 --> 01:29:41.880 The affordable housing toolkit that I talked about at the time that we developed it gave us a goal of 4,300 units that we needed to create. 01:29:41.880 --> 01:29:47.880 You can see in this graphic that some of that was in rental housing and some of that was in homeownership. 01:29:47.880 --> 01:29:57.880 The needs assessment said we needed 4,300 units. The toolkit that we developed, we have a goal to create at least 1,700 units out of the tools that we're already talking about. 01:29:57.880 --> 01:30:07.880 Of course, we hope that they will grow and expand over time, but that still leaves us with this remaining need of about 2,500 units based on a figure that was set pre-COVID. 01:30:07.880 --> 01:30:24.880 I just want to keep that in your mind. What that means is for us, having the opportunity to talk to you about potential bond package for affordable housing that would give us some tools means that we would have additional funding to knock out some of that remaining need as well as expand on the need that's happening because of growth. 01:30:24.880 --> 01:30:42.880 How we're proposing the funds would be utilized, no matter what amount you authorize or recommend, we think that about 75% of it will be in just land acquisition alone. Get those vacant properties, we'll get those underutilized properties, we'll get them in use, and then we will make them available through our developer incentive package. 01:30:42.880 --> 01:30:49.880 That means we will say, "We've got land. You can have it if you will build affordability in those." 01:30:49.880 --> 01:31:09.880 We'll also look at some direct financing. One of the 17 activities is to create a pre-development fund, which would give developers access to low-interest loans, reducing the capital, so it reduces the cost for them, and then they pay it back, and then that loan becomes a revolving loan that we can do packages ongoing. 01:31:09.880 --> 01:31:22.880 We want to expand our capacity and resources to deliver, and that's grants. We want to build up our nonprofit developers to be bigger, so they can do more in the community on their own. They can be stronger. They can create more housing. 01:31:22.880 --> 01:31:35.880 Housing assistance projects, that's what we already do. We're good at it. We just put a little more funding in it so that we can do more in the community. That's our proposal, and I will open it up for questions. 01:31:35.880 --> 01:31:39.880 Is there a price tag associated with this proposal? 01:31:39.880 --> 01:31:46.880 Well, we originally had proposed $10 million, but somebody mentioned that maybe you could make some more available, so it's up to your recommendation, though. 01:31:46.880 --> 01:31:56.880 Got it. Okay, so this is the time for questions for Danny or others. Question back here. 01:31:56.880 --> 01:32:08.880 Can you give us any insight into how $10 million was selected as a number, because we're looking at projects like $15 million, I think around $30 million, and affordable housing is one of the kind of greatest needs for the city in my mind. 01:32:08.880 --> 01:32:20.880 I know friends who are leaving, friends who have become homeless, friends who have been priced out of their community, and so to my mind, this is a very important topic, so how is that $10 million number reached? 01:32:20.880 --> 01:32:28.880 Yeah, I think it was the original proposal based on looking at what I talked about before. So we're not looking to pay for development. We're looking to incentivize that. 01:32:28.880 --> 01:32:45.880 So let's say it's $10 million for land, and we use $7.5 million for land. We would make that seven properties, for example, at $1 million each that we could make available to a developer, and each one of those creates 300 units, as an example. 01:32:45.880 --> 01:32:58.880 That would be a way that we're, you know, leveraging the developer community with a lower amount of funding. And then the original proposal in our affordable housing strategic toolkit was $500,000 for the pre-development loan program, so we built that right into it. 01:32:58.880 --> 01:33:05.880 But that, to be clear, that's not like a cap. That's not like all of the capacity available to you if you were given more funds. 01:33:05.880 --> 01:33:16.880 Absolutely. Okay. I'll take everything you give me. I want to be like Gary Packen and just buy lots of land. 01:33:16.880 --> 01:33:24.880 Is the affordable housing all over the city of Denton, or is it primarily in one specific section of the city? 01:33:24.880 --> 01:33:38.880 Right now, based on how our affordable housing tools are, so it's really just the housing tax credit program and our nonprofit developers. So a lot of our affordability is concentrated in District 1 and District 2 of the city. It does not expand out. 01:33:38.880 --> 01:33:40.880 Go ahead, Gary. 01:33:40.880 --> 01:33:49.880 Great job, Danny. Do any of your strategies depend on the Public Facilities Corporation, or maybe talk about how the PFC and this could work together? 01:33:49.880 --> 01:33:58.880 Yeah, so we had proposed a PFC, or Council had asked for a review of what a PFC would look like. Our Housing Authority already does those. 01:33:58.880 --> 01:34:04.880 We put a proposal together, and what the PFC would have done for us is create some of these other funding mechanisms, right? 01:34:04.880 --> 01:34:15.880 And it would also, most importantly, put us at the door of those development conversations. So right now, we don't have any control when a PFC is created and what the deal is that's made. 01:34:15.880 --> 01:34:25.880 And so right now, the PFC structure is pretty big, right? It allows for 100% tax exemption for only, you know, 50% of the units being affordable. 01:34:25.880 --> 01:34:38.880 We would want to be at the table, both negotiating better deals for affordability, as well as then the revenues that we might make off of those deals to, you know, put back into affordable housing programs. 01:34:38.880 --> 01:34:39.880 There's a question over here. 01:34:39.880 --> 01:34:41.880 That did not pass, so I just wanted to make that clear. 01:34:41.880 --> 01:34:43.880 Did that last part again? 01:34:43.880 --> 01:34:46.880 It did not. 01:34:46.880 --> 01:34:47.880 We don't have that tool. 01:34:47.880 --> 01:34:55.880 Danny, do you know if there's any federal grant money that would augment what you're proposing? 01:34:55.880 --> 01:35:02.880 Yeah, in a lot of different ways. So we're already an entitlement community, so we receive community development block grant and home investment partnerships. 01:35:02.880 --> 01:35:07.880 But our funding is pretty limited. So our home funds is about $500,000 a year. 01:35:07.880 --> 01:35:14.880 So if it takes $250,000 a year to create a single unit of affordable, you can see that's only going to create a couple of units. 01:35:14.880 --> 01:35:19.880 But we've also been looking at, and I'll shout out to Ditton Affordable Housing Corp. 01:35:19.880 --> 01:35:27.880 They got some new funding from HUD recently for additional capacity building that we were very grateful that they went out and applied for and got. 01:35:27.880 --> 01:35:33.880 So those are examples of how we can look at different tools out there that we can seek out funding for. 01:35:33.880 --> 01:35:37.880 I believe there's some matching grant money out there that I'll send you some links. 01:35:37.880 --> 01:35:40.880 Thank you, ma'am. Happy to take it. 01:35:40.880 --> 01:35:42.880 Mindy and Kim. 01:35:42.880 --> 01:35:53.880 For the land property acquisition piece, if the city owns the land and you're working a development deal with a private developer to build, are they still able to take advantage of the state tax credits on that property? 01:35:53.880 --> 01:35:58.880 Yeah, we use a fun term called capital stacks, so we could leverage a lot of different resources in one project. 01:35:58.880 --> 01:36:04.880 So let's say we could put, you know, the land is a million dollars. They get to put that in their application, too. 01:36:04.880 --> 01:36:07.880 They get the housing tax credits for some bond funding to help fund it. 01:36:07.880 --> 01:36:09.880 We could put some home fund in to do a unit. 01:36:09.880 --> 01:36:14.880 So there's a lot of ways we could leverage lots of funding to make even one development happen. 01:36:14.880 --> 01:36:17.880 She just had a birthday yesterday, so we'll give her the microphone. 01:36:17.880 --> 01:36:19.880 Happy birthday. 01:36:19.880 --> 01:36:22.880 Quick question. Actually, I have two questions. 01:36:22.880 --> 01:36:33.880 Number one, do you have any data on how many of these units are going to elderly disabled families that have small children? 01:36:33.880 --> 01:36:39.880 If I could just kind of see who's going to be living there in terms of the demographics. 01:36:39.880 --> 01:36:41.880 Yeah, we'd be on a development by development. 01:36:41.880 --> 01:36:50.880 We have an affordable housing map right now on the city's web page where you can go and look at units are and who it's serving and are existing. 01:36:50.880 --> 01:36:54.880 So that data is available, but I can see what we can pull just to give you an idea. 01:36:54.880 --> 01:36:58.880 I think it would be important for us to look at priorities, right? 01:36:58.880 --> 01:37:03.880 So making sure as we're looking at the entire development package that we're making sure senior housing gets created. 01:37:03.880 --> 01:37:05.880 We're making sure that family housing is created. 01:37:05.880 --> 01:37:09.880 So it's a part of it, but we don't have specific numbers on each of those targets. 01:37:09.880 --> 01:37:11.880 I'm going to wind myself through this one. 01:37:11.880 --> 01:37:18.880 How long do folks that are just trying to transition generally stay in affordable housing? 01:37:18.880 --> 01:37:20.880 Oh, that's a really good question. 01:37:20.880 --> 01:37:32.880 It depends on the population to like people experiencing homelessness is very different than people who are working and are needing just that 50 to 80 percent level. 01:37:32.880 --> 01:37:35.880 So I'll have to look at that to give you kind of a better idea. 01:37:35.880 --> 01:37:36.880 Tell me where you're trying to get to. 01:37:36.880 --> 01:37:40.880 Maybe I can as a as a former teacher and principal. 01:37:40.880 --> 01:37:46.880 And if you look at any data, the number one thing that kills the students likelihood of success is mobility. 01:37:46.880 --> 01:37:50.880 That's if they are moving from one apartment complex to the next and then bouncing back and forth. 01:37:50.880 --> 01:38:00.880 What I want to know is that we're going to make this investment and this mother, this cashier, those two kids stay at Sam Houston and then go to McMath and then go to high school. 01:38:00.880 --> 01:38:01.880 And they are able to make that transition. 01:38:01.880 --> 01:38:03.880 And there's very little mobility. 01:38:03.880 --> 01:38:05.880 Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. 01:38:05.880 --> 01:38:12.880 I'd like to think there, too, about how we make development agreements so that we make sure we're not seeing skyrocketing rents over time for those folks. 01:38:12.880 --> 01:38:16.880 It stays affordable for long enough for them to stay. So those are great questions. 01:38:16.880 --> 01:38:18.880 Thank you. 01:38:18.880 --> 01:38:22.880 Any other questions? 01:38:22.880 --> 01:38:29.880 All right, let's talk at our table a little bit and debrief on this and then we'll come back to see if there's anything else. 01:38:42.880 --> 01:38:52.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:39:12.880 --> 01:39:22.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:39:22.880 --> 01:39:32.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:39:32.880 --> 01:39:42.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:39:42.880 --> 01:40:02.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:40:02.880 --> 01:40:12.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:40:12.880 --> 01:40:32.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:40:32.880 --> 01:40:42.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:40:42.880 --> 01:41:02.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:41:02.880 --> 01:41:12.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:41:12.880 --> 01:41:32.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:41:32.880 --> 01:41:42.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:41:42.880 --> 01:42:02.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:42:02.880 --> 01:42:12.880 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:42:12.880 --> 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