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 We're going to go ahead and open up tonight's special citizens bond advisory committee,

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 now that it's six o'clock.

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 Welcome here.

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 Thanks for coming back for another time.

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 Tonight is where we really start digging in.

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 We've got two more projects to look at, which are both important ones, but then we're going

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 to really start deliberating in earnest a bit as we are going to have a homework assignment

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 at the end of tonight that we're going to take home.

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 It's not something we'll do here, which is going to give you the opportunity, we'll talk

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 more about it, to prioritize the projects according to what you know, what you think

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 based on the conversations we've had today.

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 So prior to that, we want to have some time to be able to dig into further questions that

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 are yet unanswered, topics that you want to make sure we delve into relating to these

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 projects.

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 So we're going to do a little switcheroo on the agenda, just for your knowledge.

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 We're going to switch C, item C, and item D. So right after we hear a report on a municipal

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 complex and affordable housing, we're going to jump into a presentation on the city tax

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 rate.

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 Then we're going to have the discussion, the one regarding all projects and project information.

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 That's going to start off with an updated list of the pricing that we know of as of

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 today.

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 That might have changed from what we heard when we first started looking at these projects.

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 So that's going to help us get a sense of the total amount of these projects, and then

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 we can have some discussion as needed around any of those topics.

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 So humor me with that little change just so we can make sure we have enough time to discuss

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 tonight.

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 So let's get started.

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 Agenda item A, consider approval of the minutes for June 15, 2023.

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 Do I have a motion?

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 I move that we accept.

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 Mr. Thurman moves.

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 Thank you.

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 All in favor, please raise your right hand.

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 All opposed?

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 That passes.

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 The next item is item B, receive a report and hold discussion regarding the following

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 - one, a municipal complex and city hall, and two, affordable housing.

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 All right, good evening, can everyone hear this doesn't move that well.

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 Good evening, I'm Frank Dixon, one of the Assistant City Managers, I'm going to be co-presenting

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 with Wayne Emerson over here, we're going to go through the municipal complex.

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 First we want to talk about, before I let Wayne get into it, a couple of reminders about

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 the complex.

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 For those of you that went on the tour, I think you saw firsthand how some of the challenges

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 that we're facing right now were over 100% at capacity in the facility, ADA requirements

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 have not been met ever, those that went in saw how long it took you to walk in, going

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 around the entirety of the courtyard, so imagine if you were in a wheelchair or you were mobility

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 challenged, how that would look for you.

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 On top of that, you know, you see some of the other things were kind of limited in how

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 we could do any further renovations to the building, there was some renderings back when

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 the building was first constructed that said that there was a possibility of building onto

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 a second story, I think that came up at least once in the earlier discussions in here, but

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 to be clear about what that looked like, that was back in like 1963, 1967, so the structure

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 of the facility has changed dramatically over time, we would have to do another complete

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 structural review to see if that would even be a factor, additionally, the rooftop mounted

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 air conditioners, they're on what would be come the second floor, are still there, along

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 with there's no elevator presently, there was never plans for an elevator, so to go

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 in there and cut more space out to put in an elevator shaft, the potential of being

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 able to build onto the second floor if that's even an option, and then outside of that have

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 an outdoor staircases going up to the second level from outside, just presents a number

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 of different challenges, I think there's some opportunities to really talk about the

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 historical complex that encompasses not just the Civic Center, City Hall, the library and

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 some other things Wayne will get into, but we're really trying to forecast a very comprehensive

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 look on how we can make the entire complex look better, feel better, and really serve

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 the citizens better. So with that, I'll hand it over to Wayne.

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 Okay, so Frank, oh sorry, sorry, it's Frank, Wayne Emerson, Director of Economic Development.

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 As Frank alluded to, the current capacity of the City Hall is 107%, so we're over capacity

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 and you can see, forecast it out over the next 20 years, it's going to be pretty tight

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 in there if not impossible to house city staff, so I think one way or another, the city is

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 going to have to address its facilities issue when it comes to staff and getting the work

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 done that needs to be done there in City Hall. Once again, through the age of the facility,

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 it's not ADA compliant, but I think what we want to stress about the City Hall is that

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 it is a great building and it's a fantastic building designed by O'Neill Ford, so when

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 I did my interview having no nothing about it, I remember walking up into the courtyard

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 and I remember just kind of thinking to myself, oh this is nice, and then coming into the

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 building with the satelio tile, I don't know anything about architecture, but it gave me

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 a great feeling and I always got that feeling when I went in there and then working on this

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 project, learning about O'Neill Ford, that that's exactly what he was all about was being

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 human centered and giving you that great feeling, so I think when we talk about this, you know,

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 we have to understand that the city is changing, we are growing, but we can also recognize

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 that that's a fantastic building, and there's intention to, we are going to continue to

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 use that, I'm sorry, let me go back there, you know, possible uses for that, the municipal

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 archive, housing parks and rec out of there would be a great location right there next

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 to Quaker Town Park, environmental services, once again great within that area, municipal

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 judge and the municipal court, so that building will continue and have a purpose and a use

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 into the city for the near, for the future, but when we look at the entire site, I like

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 to just kind of do a little bit of analysis for you, so this, that site north of McKinney

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 is called the O'Neill Ford historic landmark civic complex, so all nestled there in Quaker

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 Town Park, you know, to the north we have civic center, we have west, we have the current

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 city hall there at number four, but to me when we think about this proposal and what

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 makes it an economic development proposal is when I look at it, I look at there's a

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 cost to the bond, but what's our opportunity cost, okay, and what do I mean about that,

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 is if we're presented with an opportunity, what does it cost us if we forego that opportunity,

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 so as we analyze this site, we look, you know, just to the south of civic center, we have

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 the parking lot for the civic center, it's about 185 parking space, move to the west,

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 we have an empty lot, some additional parking, about 53, and then we have the city hall parking

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 lot, another parking, 43 spaces, so we need those spaces to have our civic functions,

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 but we also own this property to the south of McKinney, once again, more parking, 125

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 spaces, so I think the first question is are we using these city assets to their highest

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 and best use, are we getting the best public benefit, and when we look at a new city hall

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 facility or a larger municipal complex, is there more value that we can have and is there

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 an opportunity for that, so in this next slide, I want to give, I want to do a visioning exercise

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 with you, and this is, I'm going to give you a concept of what this complex could look

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 like, and it's really meant to be a vision to see what are the possibilities and what's

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 the opportunities that we might be missing out on.

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 So if you look straight to the west, I'd like to start there, and this concept, this rendering,

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 we see that here's an opportunity for us to bring Quaker Town Park out in front of city

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 hall and connect it to McKinney, so that the park is literally on a front porch of the

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 streetscape there, and we're replacing parking for a park, to me that's a much higher public

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 benefit, then as we kind of move east, you can see number three there would be that new

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 municipal complex, that facility, 37,000 square feet large enough to house our current staffing

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 needs, but for the city for the next 50 years, right, because I think this is not just about

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 our needs today, but it's our needs in the future, and you know, those needs are only

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 going to grow, and then to the south, those number fives, this is an opportunity to maybe

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 add some additional commercial economic activity, could be some retail pavilions, offering places

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 for local small businesses to do business, and then at number two, I don't want to worry

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 you guys said, "Hey, we're talking about downtown, we don't have any parking."

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 This is a parking structure, and in this rendering, there's 350 spaces, which if you add up all

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 that parking that I said north of McKinney, we're actually netting out 70 additional parking

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 spaces, so to me, just on the north side right there alone, we have our city assets, and

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 we are utilizing them to their highest and best use, we're adding public benefit, we're

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 bringing economic activity, bringing more people to downtown so that they could visit

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 the other businesses down there, and we're generating revenue for the city by having

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 some commercial activity there.

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 Then, in this concept to the south, when we look at economic opportunity, this could be

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 some sort of mixed use development, just depend on what sort of partner, if we start this

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 as a private partnership, whatever the market would dictate that could be, you could imagine

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 to its highest use that could be office, could be some more additional retail, some residential,

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 and then of course, there's plenty of space to add a parking structure there as well.

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 In this particular example, you're getting 200 spaces, which is a net 75 on that piece.

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 All of that being said, I think we still go back to our original piece of this being a

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 historical site, Quakertown Park, O'Neill Ford's Municipal Complex, the Civic Center,

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 Emily Fowler Library to the North, and our current facility, and seeing this new development,

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 does that take away from the historic character?

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 Well, I want to show you this right here, this is our neighbors to the south, San Antonio,

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 the campus of Trinity University, so some of you may be aware of this, but O'Neill Ford,

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 fully designed that university campus and the buildings on it, and they too are experiencing

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 growing pains just like us, and they realized that they needed to grow and create new facilities

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 to house those new students, and so what they did is they came up with this new building,

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 Dickey Hall, and when they went out to the architect there, is that architect studied

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 O'Neill Ford, and it really encompassed a lot of his concepts, you know, it's modern,

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 it encompasses nature, using this wood paneling that I'm sure we're all very familiar with

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 in our current facility, and so really this is modern, and it's in the same vein of O'Neill

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 Ford, and can still give us that great feel, and harken back to that history, and so what

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 could that look like for us?

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 Well, here's a conceptual rendering of the new, what could be our new council chambers,

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 so you'll notice the wood paneling that we're all so familiar with, but what I really like

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 about this one, which makes it modern, is bringing in some natural light, and in this

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 particular piece it's actually overlooking Quaker Town Park, so our government's outlooking

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 over there, the nature and the light is coming in as our council is doing the business of

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 the government, or the city, okay, so all that to be said, all that great idea, ultimately

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 though we have to get there, and that, to get those additional uses, those private uses,

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 we're gonna need a public-private partnership, so what is that, and what does that mean?

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 I think it means a lot of things, and it's confusing, and I work in economic development,

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 and sometimes I can even get confused about this, but there's really two distinctions,

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 and they're used interchangeably when we talk about public-private partnerships, so there

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 is public-private partnership as a procurement method, and then there's just a public-private

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 partnership as a deal structure, and I think in this instance what we would see is that

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 we're probably talking about both of these things, when we talk about as a deal structure,

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 this is probably something you're more familiar to, the city's gonna partner with a private

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 developer or a private business, and we're gonna have specific deal structures, we're

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 gonna define that risk allocation, the financial terms, incentives, and the performance standards,

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 and each of those things are gonna be tailored to the specific project, but there's also

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 this idea that kind of started in Canada, it's a procurement method, and what this is,

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 this involves the public sector contracting with a private entity, and then the private

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 entity is in charge of designing, building, financing, could be operating, could be maintaining

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 the project, and it's primarily used for infrastructure projects and public facilities.

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 Okay, that being said, P3s can take many forms, there is no definition of this is a P3 and

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 this is how they are all done, the exact structure and distribution of responsibilities in a

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 P3 can vary significantly, and it's wholly dependent on what the arrangement of that

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 agreement is, so for us, when we think about this project, it's about finding the right

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 partner that has the same vision and the same goals that we're looking for, and making sure

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 that when we go out and we find that partner, that's exactly what we're looking for.

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 So we take a step back and we look at a traditional procurement method, public sector is solely

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 responsible for initiating, planning, designing, financing, construction, operation, and the

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 maintenance of the project, and the process is usually fractured, involves separate contracts,

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 it's kind of broken up, it's designed in phases, and I think most importantly is the

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 public sector is going to assume most of the risks, and we got to rely on our own resources

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 and capabilities to deliver that project.

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 So what would be an advantage of doing this as a P3 as a procurement method?

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 Okay, well, one thing is increased cost efficiency, risk sharing, which I'll talk a little bit

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 more about that here in a second, increased quality and timeliness, which is kind of related

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 to risk sharing, which I'll show in the next one, but also when we engage the private sector,

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 they're motivated to help us stimulate some of that business activity, which could create

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 additional revenue for the city and create jobs, so what does that kind of look like?

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 I like to think of this orange here as like the deal zone, right, and these are things

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 that we can both benefit off of.

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 So if we had sort of like that municipal complex I had before, the city would benefit from

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 any property tax from those privately owned facilities, the private sector would be able

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 to get some rent from those buildings, and then kind of there in the middle, any sales

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 generated off those private uses, we're both going to benefit, right, because they're going

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 to get those sales and then the city's going to get taxable sales as well.

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 Cost, so in the traditional method, there's really a lack of innovation, there's no incentive

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 once we go out in that contract to really lower the cost, so as that example I showed

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 you earlier, there's a couple different parking structures, and really there can be an incentive

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 where the two uses aren't always parking at the same time, right, so there may be more

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 need for parking in the daytime for our uses, but more need for parking on the private sector

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 in the evening, and so in this sharing model, they get it for the mixed use facilities,

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 we get it for our municipal facilities, and we're really sharing the cost on that garage,

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 which can help lower the cost.

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 This to me is I think the biggest benefit is when you look at the risk.

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 So for this city, we're going to say, hey, we're going to issue some bonds, bonds is

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 debt, there's an inherent risk any time you issue debt, but I think the biggest risk in

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 this is any delays or cost overruns, so I think you could probably just look to any

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 other city project, especially now when there's a delay, there's going to be cost overruns,

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 and those cost overruns are high, and so with a P3, we have the ability to say, hey, this

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 is our budget, and any delay or cost, that risk is offloaded off the city and it's on

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 the private sector, and so they are incentivized to make sure that this project comes in and

208
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,400
 under budget, and when I say under budget, that's contingency costs, any budget's going

209
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,120
 to have a little bit of cost overrun, and that's a risk that we could probably share

210
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:17,000
 with both parties, and if we come in under budget, we both benefit from that.

211
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:25,240
 Okay, so once again, we talk about a public-private procurement, it really exists on a spectrum,

212
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:32,080
 so going back to there's no one public-private partnership model, it all depends on who your

213
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:38,120
 partner is and what's the best deal you can get, so if you look over here to the left,

214
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:43,160
 this is that traditional procurement model that I spoke about earlier, they call it design,

215
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:49,480
 bid, build, and then over here on the right, this would be maybe how they do it in Canada,

216
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:55,320
 where it's build, own, operate, the private sector is even owning and maintaining that

217
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,240
 asset, and the city is renting it from them.

218
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,800
 That is not the intention of this, I think what we're talking about is something right

219
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:09,120
 here in the middle, and in this next slide, I've kind of done my own analysis, and I think

220
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,880
 this would be a potential way that this could work for us.

221
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:17,320
 Once again, not to say that this would be the model, but I think this is a realistic

222
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:23,920
 way that it could be, so this is called the design, finance, build model, so what happened

223
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:28,720
 in that first phase is we'd go out to that private sector partner, they do the design,

224
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:36,200
 so really get that design piece in, making sure that all of those different mix of uses

225
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:42,840
 are synergenic, working together, and they'll have that incentive to make sure that all

226
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,920
 the pieces work together, but at the same time, it's going to have to meet all of our

227
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,960
 requirements that we're looking for, so we're in on that process in the very beginning.

228
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:57,000
 Then, this is going back to the, I think the crucial piece here is when we look at the

229
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,960
 finance, is we would want to look for a private sector partner that's going to finance it

230
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,280
 through the construction phase, so if you talk to any developer, that is where all the

231
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,280
 risk is, is during the construction phase, that's where we're going to have the cost

232
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:14,800
 overruns, and if they are the ones financing it through the construction phase, the risk

233
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,220
 is on them, and of course, they're actually going to get it financed, then they're going

234
00:22:19,220 --> 00:22:25,400
 to build it according to our design, and then at the very end, we come in with the permanent

235
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,120
 financing, which would be this bond, we're going to issue those bonds, and we're going

236
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:35,000
 to finance it permanently throughout the rest of the asset.

237
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:40,000
 All right, so what's the recap, what's proposed here?

238
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:48,760
 We're proposing a public-private partnership to get a much-needed city hall facility.

239
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,740
 We're going to expand Quaker Town Park down to McKinney.

240
00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:57,880
 We're going to be actually a net positive in park space of Quaker Town Park there, provide

241
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,800
 a mix of retail focused on local and small businesses.

242
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:08,000
 We're going to add additional public access to parking in a parking garage, and the new

243
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:14,840
 facility is going to house an emergency operations center, all these facilities, repurposes that

244
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:21,320
 I already talked about, and so I think that's what's being proposed.

245
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,600
 Thank you.

246
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,340
 Remind us on the process here, and I imagine with this topic in particular, there's a lot

247
00:23:27,340 --> 00:23:31,360
 of big thoughts, which is great.

248
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:36,000
 This section of it, what we're going to do is have an open time of Q&A, so let's restrict

249
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,160
 to questions so that we can get staff feedback on this.

250
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,160
 Then we're going to come back.

251
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,640
 You have some time at the tables to debrief.

252
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,440
 Then we're going to open it back up to the large group to have questions, comments, whatever.

253
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,920
 That would be a time if you're wanting to make statements that don't have questions

254
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:51,920
 for them.

255
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,400
 So this portion, let's restrict it to questions, starting here with Mr. Crouch.

256
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:06,280
 Okay, I need an elevator speech for the voters on what you just said.

257
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:07,280
 Sure.

258
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,960
 I think the elevator speech is that there's a need.

259
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,320
 We need a new city hall.

260
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,360
 We're growing.

261
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:20,760
 Our current facility is, A, not suitable for our current uses, but it's certainly not going

262
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,440
 to be suitable into the future.

263
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:30,680
 The opportunity we have right now is we have property that's being underutilized, and there's

264
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,120
 an opportunity to create more.

265
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:39,440
 I've gotten off the elevator about three times, so here's the problem, because you haven't

266
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:46,180
 even gotten to the public-private partnership, which I think is a very difficult thing to

267
00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:52,480
 explain to the voters at this point, and I'm still not sure what you're building.

268
00:24:52,480 --> 00:25:02,160
 So I'm really confused as to what the plan is and how this thing's going to work, and

269
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:09,080
 most of all, how to explain it to the voters, because you haven't explained it to me.

270
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,080
 Sure.

271
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:16,560
 I'll try to simplify it a little bit more.

272
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:23,240
 So there's an opportunity to add, in the complex, a new building that will centralize a lot

273
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:29,400
 of our current services, we can utilize more park space, and then we can help utilize more

274
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,960
 local and small businesses to be a part of that partnership and those retail spaces that

275
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,960
 we talked about.

276
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:51,160
 Well, and the flip side of this is, as we continue to grow, the reality is we're going

277
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:56,000
 to be having to go out and rent office space, so we're in this city to house city workers

278
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:01,000
 at some point in the near future, because we are kind of maxed out on facility space.

279
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,800
 That's the truth of the matter, right, so we're looking at an opportunity to have this

280
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,520
 utility space, which is mutually beneficial for not just the city, but for the community

281
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,560
 as a whole, and then, like I said before, to support those small businesses within our

282
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:13,560
 community.

283
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,120
 Got a question over here and then one back here.

284
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:18,640
 I have two quick questions.

285
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,400
 First, has anybody done a study with the Quaker Town Park traffic?

286
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,960
 You're talking about expanding that park quite a bit, do you have any idea how many people

287
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:30,840
 use that park per day?

288
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,920
 And then the second question I have is you're talking about building a multi-level parking

289
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,420
 lot, and is that going to be free parking?

290
00:26:39,420 --> 00:26:44,360
 You're talking about increased tax revenue for the city, well, is that going to be on

291
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:49,320
 the backs of the people that are just using that facility to park, or since there's increased

292
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,640
 revenue, will that be spread out to pay for that parking lot?

293
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:53,640
 Yes.

294
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,800
 So if I'll go to your first one, so the city right now is in the process, and I think tomorrow

295
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,160
 the City Council is going to hear about this, is our downtown master plan.

296
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,840
 Within that downtown master plan, they're going to be conducting a master plan for Quaker

297
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,600
 Town Park.

298
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:15,880
 So I think the great thing about this is that all of this ties into those broader plans

299
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,320
 of the downtown master plan.

300
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,000
 Is there a definitive plan that you have to focus on that?

301
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:28,080
 And also with all of these new shiny retail spaces that are going to come in, I'm assuming

302
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:33,200
 they're going to be as expensive as everything else on the square and around the square,

303
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,640
 or even a little bit more.

304
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,760
 How are we going to make sure that local and small businesses can actually afford to rent

305
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:38,760
 those spaces?

306
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:44,800
 Well, so I think that is the exact advantage of it being a public-private partnership,

307
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:45,800
 right?

308
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,920
 Is that when we structure deals, we can say that this is the deal, and then this is what

309
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,720
 we want to get out of it.

310
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,160
 Versus, if we're not a partner, and some other development comes in, they get to set

311
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:58,160
 the terms.

312
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:04,520
 So in a public-private partnership, that's the deal, is that we get our own terms.

313
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:10,320
 What those terms look like, I can't tell you, because the hard part, right, and where the

314
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:17,680
 work is happening is finding a partner, finding a willing partner who has the same interests

315
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:23,720
 as us, and making sure that in that deal zone, we get what we want, they get more where they

316
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,720
 want, and we got a win-win situation.

317
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,480
 I've got a question back here.

318
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,960
 Yeah, so with the public-private partnership, what split are you foreseeing in terms of

319
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:40,760
 city investment versus public investment, private sector investment, sorry, with $70

320
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,800
 million being the city portion, what would you expect for the private portion?

321
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:53,240
 I did some back-of-the-envelope math, and excluding land cost, I identified about $220-250 million

322
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,120
 in those parking garages alone, or sorry, $22 million to $25 million.

323
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:07,120
 Yeah, so I think the biggest piece that we bring to this whole project is the land cost.

324
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:12,880
 So what that, once again, what that investment split is going to look like, I can't tell

325
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,040
 you because this is conceptual.

326
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,680
 So we go out to the market, we find ourselves a private partner, we put out a request for

327
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:27,800
 proposal, and we are presented with proposals.

328
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,960
 What it's going to look like, we won't know until those proposals come in.

329
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,800
 But the ask right now is the city's investment is $70 million.

330
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,800
 Most of that investment is going to be our own asset of the city hall.

331
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,560
 And then hopefully what we want to see when we partner on that is we're actually going

332
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,600
 to be leveraging that investment.

333
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,720
 So that investment is going to be leveraged with private investment, and then with the

334
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,360
 private investment, the benefit to us is that it's taxable.

335
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,960
 And so we will get those taxable revenues off the property, and we'll also get the

336
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,760
 taxable revenue off the sales.

337
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,600
 So I wish I could tell you everybody hears exactly what that deal structure is going

338
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,400
 to look like, but we have to go out to the market and find out what it is.

339
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:18,200
 Oh, yes, I think one of the things that would help out, you said a word, and it kind of

340
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:25,800
 like, and you lost me, and you know, I once was briefing a four-star general, and I said

341
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,720
 the word "never," and he said, "sit down."

342
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,440
 He said, "I don't want to hear anything else from you."

343
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:36,000
 So really what I really want to say is, is it any way you can get some small wins, because

344
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:42,680
 the word that was used is the ADAs have never been addressed, and if, you know, if you can

345
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:48,240
 kind of like take and get some small wins, and then package it, and then kind of present

346
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,000
 it from there and stuff, because it's like a lot at once, and it's like, well, wait a

347
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,200
 minute, because here's my thing.

348
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,640
 When you said that, and then you came back around, you said, well, eventually we'll have

349
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,200
 somebody else to come in the building.

350
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,200
 Well, guess what?

351
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,880
 They're going to inherit that.

352
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,960
 So that's how I got it.

353
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,800
 Is there a question you want to ask?

354
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:17,120
 Yeah, just the small wins with the ADAs, because, you know, is it a plan to address that for

355
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,120
 the people?

356
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,120
 Yes.

357
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,040
 Is there a plan for ADA on the existing building?

358
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,880
 So there's very limited things that we can do in the existing building to change the

359
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,080
 ADA requirements without making serious structural exchanges.

360
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:35,440
 If you've ever walked into our city hall chambers, our council chambers, you have those stair

361
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:36,440
 steps that go up.

362
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,840
 They're very narrow stairs, and you have the mechanical lift.

363
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,480
 To be able to take those stairs out and to flatten that out to make it a ramp is pretty

364
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:44,480
 significant.

365
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,680
 Then you get inside the chamber, there's no way for people to get up top and come back

366
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,720
 down without having to go down again steps.

367
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,160
 So if you're looking at how you can make those changes just within that one small corridor,

368
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:04,160
 you're looking at pretty significant changes that would end up altering the building as

369
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:10,240
 it looks now, which may have some other consequences to it because it is designated as a historical

370
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:11,240
 one.

371
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,600
 Is there a question back here?

372
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:15,600
 Yes, sir.

373
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,880
 Have you looked at another location besides this one to put city hall?

374
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:28,200
 Well, this is the most beneficial because we already own the real estate, right?

375
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:33,840
 A big significant part of what we're trying to do is to be very thoughtful in where we

376
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,160
 do it because we own the land across the street.

377
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,660
 We own the land that we currently sit on.

378
00:32:39,660 --> 00:32:43,000
 That takes out having to go out and purchase land to do this.

379
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,960
 So what we're trying to do is not to have to go look around the city to acquire more

380
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,000
 land to be able to do this project.

381
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,360
 It just makes sense to tie it all together in the same conference.

382
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,520
 City owns a lot of land within the city limits itself.

383
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,280
 So that's why I was curious if you had a plan B, just in case, because this would also determine

384
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:13,780
 whether the senior center is raised, which would also expand QuikTown Park, correct?

385
00:33:13,780 --> 00:33:21,440
 Maybe I'm not understanding the question, what would be the plan B if this doesn't pass?

386
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:26,560
 There is no plan B because we don't have funding, right?

387
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:27,560
 Question right here.

388
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:28,560
 Yeah.

389
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:35,280
 So when I looked at the plan, the first question I asked is, it looks like the building, if

390
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,200
 you're trying to sell me, right?

391
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,400
 I looked at the building and you're over capacity now.

392
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,300
 When the building isn't completed, you will be over capacity.

393
00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:48,400
 Five years, you will be over capacity, right?

394
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:49,760
 Based on your numbers.

395
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:50,760
 Is that true?

396
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:51,760
 That's not true.

397
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,720
 For the new part of the complex, we're talking about the new facility will not be, because

398
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:03,960
 you're using more, you have more storage in the new facility, we're going to be taking

399
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,320
 less people over than what's in City Hall currently, right?

400
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,480
 So there's going to be room to expand, to grow into it.

401
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,320
 Well, based on your slides, maybe I'm wrong, but based on your slides, you were over capacity.

402
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,520
 Well, that was the current.

403
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:19,520
 The current.

404
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:20,520
 Where we're at now.

405
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:26,800
 Oh, you were saying that if we stayed in the current facility, you would be over.

406
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:27,800
 Right.

407
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,760
 We're already over.

408
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:30,760
 Okay.

409
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:31,760
 Okay.

410
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:41,280
 The second question then, so given the growth of Denton, what would be the point at which

411
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,120
 you're at capacity?

412
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:44,120
 Is it two years?

413
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:45,120
 Three years?

414
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:46,120
 No.

415
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:47,120
 This is focused for multi-generations.

416
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,120
 We're talking 30-year plan for it to grow.

417
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,120
 Because you're looking at, like I said, we're not going to be moving all the people that

418
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,120
 are in current City Hall now over to new facilities.

419
00:34:50,120 --> 00:35:03,820
 So one part of this project is trying to forecast how we can leave ourselves room to grow, because

420
00:35:03,820 --> 00:35:08,400
 historically, that's been a challenge for almost every governmental entity.

421
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,320
 Again, we're trying to be very thoughtful in how we plan this out to make sure that

422
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,120
 we're able to grow into it for years to come.

423
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,840
 So we're not coming back to the community again with another bond program in ten years

424
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,140
 saying, "Oh, we're out of room."

425
00:35:23,140 --> 00:35:30,880
 I guess the question in my mind is, and I could be wrong, I don't really see the growth

426
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:42,000
 expectation of Denton and how it is combined with that complex.

427
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,840
 I think the City of Denton is going to grow much faster than we think, and then we're

428
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,660
 going to be out of capacity again.

429
00:35:48,660 --> 00:35:49,660
 That's just mine.

430
00:35:49,660 --> 00:35:50,660
 We're not focusing all of our city departments in this one building, right?

431
00:35:50,660 --> 00:35:51,660
 So outside of just this project, we're looking at other projects and facilities to grow individual

432
00:35:51,660 --> 00:35:52,660
 departments, whether that's DME, whether that's solid waste, whether that's water waste water.

433
00:35:52,660 --> 00:35:53,660
 Because we know that we're about 151,000 now.

434
00:35:53,660 --> 00:35:54,660
 We're looking at capacity probably 265,000.

435
00:35:54,660 --> 00:36:14,320
 Around that number.

436
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,940
 So city services are going to have to continue to grow along that way, but we're looking

437
00:36:17,940 --> 00:36:22,280
 at, just like we do with the police department, a last bond package with the addition of a

438
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:27,400
 police station that leaves the police department a lot of room to grow for 20 or 30 years before

439
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,400
 that building becomes capacity.

440
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:36,080
 That's just what we're doing, again, through this thoughtful process of not trying to make

441
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,280
 everything happen at once across the entire city, but trying to be very strategic in how

442
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,440
 we're looking at the growth.

443
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:50,480
 Okay, my question, the first thing is to say that you have this great opportunity right

444
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,440
 now.

445
00:36:53,440 --> 00:37:00,140
 If the city owns all this land, unless the city is planning on selling it, you will still

446
00:37:00,140 --> 00:37:06,400
 have this great opportunity in two, three, five years.

447
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:13,840
 So to use that statement, I think is kind of misleading, number one.

448
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:26,160
 My question in regard to looking at a private-public partnership is Ross Perot Jr. commented about

449
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:37,800
 two or three weeks ago that he definitely sees a recession coming and that his corporations

450
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:43,500
 have been loaning funds to other developers.

451
00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:56,680
 With that thought in mind, do you really think that within the next timeframe, quick timeframe,

452
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:06,160
 you would be able to come up with a partner?

453
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,840
 We won't know until we go to the market.

454
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,760
 I would say the one thing you said that would give me some hope is that if Ross Perot is

455
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,880
 loaning money to developers to build projects, I think he would expect that he's going to

456
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,480
 get paid back at some point.

457
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:24,600
 So that's another advantage to the private sector, to partner with us.

458
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,560
 It gives them more incentive to do a deal structure with us, is that if we partner with

459
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:35,960
 them and we co-invest, that can help cover some of that financial gap.

460
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:41,800
 If I had a crystal ball, that'd be amazing, and I think I'd be a lot richer person.

461
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,400
 I might not be here, but what we'd want to do is we want to go out to the market and

462
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:54,160
 find out what is there, and then once we get there, we can see those opportunities.

463
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,080
 Mr. Emerson, could you clarify the piece where you were talking about the retail pavilions

464
00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,740
 that would come in?

465
00:38:59,740 --> 00:39:05,400
 You mentioned that there would be tax revenue from that and sales tax revenue, so would

466
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,800
 the land still be owned by the city, and then the built structure would be owned by the

467
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:10,800
 private partner?

468
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,080
 That's a good question.

469
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:18,480
 So I think the answer to that is, could be, the possibilities could be endless, right?

470
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:24,600
 I mean, there's a possibility where the city owns that land, it could be there's an opportunity

471
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,680
 where the city owns those facilities and the city's collecting rent.

472
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:36,120
 It's a possibility that we dedicate that land in there or we sell that land to a private

473
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,540
 developer or we're just collecting taxable revenue.

474
00:39:39,540 --> 00:39:45,720
 So it all really depends on that proposal that we get with that menu of proposals and

475
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:51,840
 selecting the deal that results in the best public benefit for the city.

476
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,640
 What kind of performance metrics would you tie into a deal like that, in general?

477
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:01,040
 I know you don't have specifics at this point, but what might that look like and then what

478
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,200
 would we do if that partner failed?

479
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:12,040
 So I think number one, the biggest performance metric is delivering a project, delivering

480
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:19,360
 whatever that retail piece is, and then putting those public benefit things in there, like

481
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,480
 here are the types of businesses we'd like to see, here's how much investment.

482
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:29,760
 And then with any development deal, there's a contract and if they fail to live up to

483
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,960
 that contract, there are stipulations.

484
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,960
 So once again, I couldn't sit here and tell you exactly what those would be.

485
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,440
 That'd be something that would be negotiated and worked out with our attorneys.

486
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,400
 But typically you see clawbacks.

487
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,840
 One tiny little more question, and that's quite a large amount of parking that this

488
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:54,660
 would add to this area, and I'm curious if there's been considerations of our sustainability

489
00:40:54,660 --> 00:40:59,440
 goals in the city, our transportation and mobility goals that seems kind of counterintuitive

490
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,560
 to a lot of the goals that we're laying forth in other areas and other departments.

491
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:09,960
 So I think currently all of that space is parking, and it very well may be that that

492
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:15,600
 much going back into that model where you're cost sharing, it could be that when our private

493
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,920
 partner comes in here that you could be correct, it is over-parked.

494
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:27,080
 But I think currently as it exists, it is all parking, and in my opinion, underutilized

495
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,960
 and not providing the best public benefit.

496
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:36,560
 I think that's the opportunity is to exchange parking for park space, exchange parking for

497
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:43,000
 people to work, people to live, and people to shop, play.

498
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,240
 I have a question back here.

499
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:49,920
 Assuming that the cost on this that would go on the bond package is still sitting at

500
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,120
 $70 million, is that correct?

501
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:54,960
 Yes.

502
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,520
 That did not include the parking garage when it was presented to Council on March 7th,

503
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:06,320
 which is a work session that everyone in this room should go back and watch.

504
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:07,480
 Very informative.

505
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,720
 So who's going to pay for the parking garage?

506
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:20,280
 So the way this would work, and also I want to emphasize, this is not a plan.

507
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:29,140
 This is a concept of the possibilities of how this property could be used differently.

508
00:42:29,140 --> 00:42:34,480
 When we go out, whatever the private partner, when we work at that, we look at the design,

509
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:41,360
 we look at the proposal, this, I guarantee you, it will not be this, because we don't

510
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:42,840
 have a private partner right now.

511
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:53,240
 So I want to emphasize, this is purely conceptual, but the idea would be if we have $70 million,

512
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:57,960
 we would go out to the market and say, "This is what we are willing to invest.

513
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,000
 What can you bring to the table?"

514
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:07,160
 And then whatever that would be, that would be their investment, and then the uses, which

515
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,340
 I would imagine a parking structure is going to be in there, and I think the question was

516
00:43:11,340 --> 00:43:12,920
 asked earlier.

517
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,520
 How much is someone going to invest?

518
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:20,280
 I can't tell you exactly what that would be, but we would go and we'd look at those proposals

519
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,400
 and we'd find one that maximizes the benefit to the public.

520
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:30,240
 Well when it was discussed at the Council meeting, the total package was going to come

521
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:36,000
 to about $130 million, so it's almost doubled, and I just really wonder about your finding

522
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,880
 a partner that's going to cough up that much more, otherwise we're going to have to come

523
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:47,520
 back with another bond package to put the parking lot on it, parking garage.

524
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:53,400
 It just seems kind of half-baked to me.

525
00:43:53,400 --> 00:44:11,400
 Okay, I guess my question piggybacks off of that, in your conceptual drawings and planning,

526
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:19,480
 what is the total amount of money that you need to do what you conceptually planned?

527
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:26,320
 Because you said the cities is $70 million, so it's not identified in here what that $70

528
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:31,800
 million will pay for, but I know it says new facility parking, so conceptually in your

529
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:38,720
 mind of what you all have planned, she said $130 million, would $130 million suffice today

530
00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:41,360
 for what you're trying to complete?

531
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:47,200
 Because I think from the very beginning, the young man said, "We don't know what you're

532
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:48,200
 building.

533
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:49,480
 We don't know how much you cost."

534
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,800
 Well, we see that there's a new facility in parking lots and mixed-use facilities.

535
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,840
 What is the total amount conceptually of what that might cost, or do you have any idea of

536
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:00,840
 what that may be?

537
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:09,440
 So we do, and from the last presentation, the entirety of the package that they estimated

538
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:20,280
 was at $111 million with the parking structure.

539
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:27,440
 So it doesn't seem like there's a hard and fast rule that the city manager's office and

540
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,680
 the city council chambers have to be in the same building, right?

541
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:35,200
 There's functionalities that go together, city manager, city attorney, public affairs,

542
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,320
 all those kind of, they ought to be co-located, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the

543
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,260
 same footprint as the city council chambers.

544
00:45:43,260 --> 00:45:49,040
 It also seems like city council chambers have very specific use square footage, right?

545
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,100
 You only use it a handful of times, maybe a couple of times a week.

546
00:45:52,100 --> 00:45:53,600
 It's got a very particular purpose.

547
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,720
 You can't really use it for a ton of other things.

548
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:59,320
 You can't let somebody's office in there when the city council's not meeting.

549
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:05,000
 So couldn't it make sense, or couldn't it be an option that we address one issue, which

550
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:10,840
 is a lack of space with a new office building that's got space for all the people, and we

551
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,080
 address another issue, which is ADA accessibility, which we've got to address in the building

552
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:20,480
 anyway, regardless of who locates there, and still keep city council in the same chambers.

553
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:25,960
 I mean, can't we do both, and can it even save us some money not having to dedicate

554
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,880
 a whole bunch of square footage to tables and chairs that we only use a couple times

555
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:30,880
 a week?

556
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:36,760
 If I think you're asking us a forecast cost that we have no idea about right now, right?

557
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,720
 And then what functionally does that look like to how do you, we're going to have to

558
00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:44,840
 look at where are we going to have alternate city council meetings while those renovations

559
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,920
 are taking place, if we choose to say where we're at.

560
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,280
 Because that's not going to be like a one week deal.

561
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,960
 That's going to be something that's going to close the chambers down for a considerable

562
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:54,960
 amount of time.

563
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,960
 We look at having to reconfigure what's inside there now.

564
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:02,960
 So yes, that can be on the table, absolutely.

565
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:09,000
 We have to look at what that cost benefit might be to go in there and structurally change

566
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:13,280
 the entirety of inside there while we're trying to do both.

567
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,920
 As a follow up to that, couldn't an option be funding a renovation of our other city

568
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:25,040
 hall and housing there temporarily, and then we renovate the existing city hall, and then

569
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:30,840
 while we have that contractor there, they're building up a new city hall annex, or office

570
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:31,840
 built, or whatever it is.

571
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:38,280
 I mean, aren't there kind of more options than just new city hall?

572
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,880
 Like Wayne said, we're talking about approving from this committee an amount of money to

573
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,240
 ask the voters to approve to borrow.

574
00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:50,600
 Not necessarily a program of construction or how the deal is going to be structured.

575
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:55,160
 We're approving how much goes on the credit card, not what is the final product.

576
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:56,160
 Right?

577
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:57,160
 Absolutely.

578
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,240
 I think one of the first questions that I answered up here was the reason why both of

579
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:05,840
 those are in the bond proposal is because we don't know which proposition is going to

580
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:06,840
 pass, right?

581
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:11,760
 We can't forecast if City Hall West is going to go through the process, or if this is,

582
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:16,560
 so at this point we have to be flexible, and absolutely everything's on the table.

583
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,280
 So if neither one of them go through, then what do we do?

584
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,680
 Then we have to go to plan C, right?

585
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:23,320
 So nothing's off the table.

586
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:28,720
 Both of these proposals are in there knowing that one may be both pass, one may be both

587
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:32,840
 fail, but we have to be nimble in how we look at moving forward.

588
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,080
 Okay, we're going to do three more questions.

589
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,640
 I know there might be more, but just to get us moving and have some table talk, and then

590
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,640
 we'll come back and there'll be time for additional.

591
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,720
 So one, two, and then whoever gets the third.

592
00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:53,440
 I'm under the impression that this whole concept was developed by you all, and that you've

593
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,320
 had no input from any developer.

594
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,340
 Is that correct?

595
00:48:58,340 --> 00:49:03,180
 No development by any outside developer?

596
00:49:03,180 --> 00:49:04,960
 This is all your ideas.

597
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:13,280
 Yeah, this is, basically this was just a test fit exercise to see here's the space, here's

598
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,560
 the site that we have, what could fit on the site.

599
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:26,040
 So this is a test fit you want us to approve of $111 million.

600
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,960
 So I think that's the step that we are in the process.

601
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,920
 Please have no discussions with outside developers.

602
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:34,920
 No discussions.

603
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:35,920
 No, no.

604
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:36,920
 We can't.

605
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:43,120
 I think it's important to know that we can't go out and have conversations with outside

606
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,160
 developers before we're approved to do that.

607
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:55,320
 But then how did you gain the knowledge and the foresight to develop this kind of plan?

608
00:49:55,320 --> 00:50:03,080
 This concept, this is just a conceptual plan done by an architectural firm that works in

609
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:04,080
 this development.

610
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:10,280
 But this is just a concept that is worth $111 million.

611
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:16,520
 Well now the $111 million is the cost estimates for this, just the City Hall facility with

612
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,280
 a parking structure.

613
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,880
 Those are the cost estimates, that number.

614
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,560
 And I am really confused.

615
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:23,560
 I'm sorry.

616
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,640
 I've got a question back here.

617
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:31,440
 This is a question kind of from a business money person.

618
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:38,520
 A, is there some type of place, a city here in Texas that you can point to and say this

619
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:46,440
 P3 type of project proposal has been implemented, where there's been a public and private partnership,

620
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:52,400
 we have a public space for city services, and then we have some retail space.

621
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,880
 So once again, I don't think it's the exact same model.

622
00:50:55,880 --> 00:51:01,680
 I think conceptually, if you were to think about it conceptually, is if you look at South

623
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,480
 Lake, they have a town center, and if you look right around there, they have all of

624
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:07,480
 that retail piece.

625
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:14,480
 So it's kind of this town center where people come to gather, they do their business function,

626
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,760
 and then around you have the commercial activity.

627
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:24,200
 So it's a great example, but it was not done under a P3 procurement process.

628
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,800
 It's relatively new in the state of Texas.

629
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:32,960
 So probably the closest would be to Travis County Courthouse was done under a P3 model,

630
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:39,140
 which would be the closest to what we're talking about, but once again, not all of those elements

631
00:51:39,140 --> 00:51:47,920
 because the proposal kind of here is a combination between that P3 procurement model and a public-private

632
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:48,920
 partnership.

633
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:54,080
 So certainly those two things have happened within the state, but not necessarily right

634
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:55,720
 there together at the same time.

635
00:51:55,720 --> 00:52:00,800
 The purpose of that question was getting back to the business aspect of it, that there's

636
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:12,080
 a chance that that business retail space doesn't work, that money has been spent on that, and

637
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:17,080
 for whatever reason, that doesn't work.

638
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:22,040
 The market predicts winners and losers, not people in this room, not people in City Hall

639
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:23,040
 or anything like that.

640
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:28,160
 There's just a concern that I'm not against the proposal, the P3 proposal, or the amount

641
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:36,920
 of money spent so much as I am, that the partnership fails in some level.

642
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,440
 And sure, and that's the risk, right?

643
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:44,360
 And so that goes back to when we talk about risk sharing, right?

644
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:51,280
 So we want the private sector to come out there and do that due diligence and share

645
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,000
 that risk with us.

646
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:59,360
 So that investment possibly, once again, can't tell you the exact details of it, but we'd

647
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:04,400
 look for them to have skin in the game so that they're at risk too and it's not just

648
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,120
 the public sector at risk.

649
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,720
 And then once again, could we reuse those facilities?

650
00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:17,120
 That would be a good deal structure to have if that retail doesn't work out, we can reuse

651
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,080
 those facilities for a public purpose.

652
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:26,080
 Should we need more growth and need more public facilities?

653
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:27,080
 That was two.

654
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:28,080
 Is there a third?

655
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:29,080
 We can move on to table talk.

656
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:30,080
 Let's do that.

657
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:31,080
 Table talk.

658
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:36,960
 So let's spend some time after you've heard those questions and answers, reflect, debrief,

659
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:43,880
 and then we'll come back and have some time for additional comments and questions as needed.

660
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:50,880
 [inaudible]

661
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:20,880
 [inaudible]

662
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:27,880
 [inaudible]

663
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:34,880
 [inaudible]

664
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:44,880
 [inaudible]

665
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:54,880
 [inaudible]

666
00:54:54,880 --> 00:55:04,880
 [inaudible]

667
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:24,880
 [inaudible]

668
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:34,880
 [inaudible]

669
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:54,880
 [inaudible]

670
00:55:54,880 --> 00:56:04,880
 [inaudible]

671
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:29,880
 [inaudible]

672
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:39,880
 [inaudible]

673
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:49,880
 [inaudible]

674
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:59,880
 [inaudible]

675
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:19,880
 [inaudible]

676
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:29,880
 [inaudible]

677
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:49,880
 [inaudible]

678
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:59,880
 [inaudible]

679
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:19,880
 [inaudible]

680
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:29,880
 [inaudible]

681
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:49,880
 [inaudible]

682
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:59,880
 [inaudible]

683
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:19,880
 [inaudible]

684
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:29,880
 [inaudible]

685
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:39,880
 [inaudible]

686
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:49,880
 [inaudible]

687
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:59,880
 [inaudible]

688
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:09,880
 [inaudible]

689
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:19,880
 [inaudible]

690
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:29,880
 [inaudible]

691
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:49,880
 [inaudible]

692
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:59,880
 [inaudible]

693
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:09,880
 [inaudible]

694
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:19,880
 [inaudible]

695
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:29,880
 [inaudible]

696
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:39,880
 [inaudible]

697
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:59,880
 [inaudible]

698
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:09,880
 [inaudible]

699
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:19,880
 [inaudible]

700
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:29,880
 [inaudible]

701
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:39,880
 [inaudible]

702
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:49,880
 [inaudible]

703
01:02:49,880 --> 01:03:09,880
 [inaudible]

704
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:19,880
 [inaudible]

705
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:29,880
 [inaudible]

706
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:39,880
 [inaudible]

707
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:59,880
 [inaudible]

708
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:09,880
 [inaudible]

709
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:29,880
 [inaudible]

710
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:39,880
 [inaudible]

711
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:59,880
 [inaudible]

712
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:09,880
 [inaudible]

713
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:29,880
 [inaudible]

714
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:39,880
 [inaudible]

715
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:49,880
 [inaudible]

716
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:59,880
 [inaudible]

717
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:23,880
 [inaudible]

718
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:33,880
 [inaudible]

719
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:57,880
 [inaudible]

720
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:07,880
 [inaudible]

721
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:17,880
 [inaudible]

722
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:27,880
 [inaudible]

723
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:37,880
 [inaudible]

724
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:47,880
 [inaudible]

725
01:07:47,880 --> 01:08:07,880
 [inaudible]

726
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:17,880
 [inaudible]

727
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:37,880
 [inaudible]

728
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:47,880
 [inaudible]

729
01:08:47,880 --> 01:09:07,880
 [inaudible]

730
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:17,880
 [inaudible]

731
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:41,880
 [inaudible]

732
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:51,880
 [inaudible]

733
01:09:51,880 --> 01:10:15,880
 [inaudible]

734
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:25,880
 [inaudible]

735
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:49,880
 [inaudible]

736
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:59,880
 [inaudible]

737
01:10:59,880 --> 01:11:23,880
 [inaudible]

738
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:33,880
 [inaudible]

739
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:57,880
 [inaudible]

740
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:07,880
 [inaudible]

741
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:17,880
 [inaudible]

742
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:27,880
 [inaudible]

743
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:51,880
 [inaudible]

744
01:12:51,880 --> 01:13:07,880
 I think this discussion about the public private, the bit of the concept, not only of the city hall, but everything that has been presented to us.

745
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:19,880
 I'm not sure in regard to what the, and this isn't, well I don't know if this is a question or not, but it's an overall understanding.

746
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:35,880
 City council gave us a directive to hear from staff what they see as the requirements to put on a bond.

747
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:57,880
 Is part of that going into the micromanagement minutiae of okay, it's public private, you do the notatorium, you can put in an HVAC and you can do more flat water, but don't do this.

748
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:05,880
 You do city hall west and you fix it so you can do this, but not that.

749
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:13,880
 You can move the library, you don't move the library, et cetera.

750
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:23,880
 Personally, and if anyone agrees with me, fine, if you don't, I apologize for taking up your time right now.

751
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:45,880
 But I think we're kind of getting a little bit into the micromanagement, the minutiae, and one of the reasons we're doing it is because so many of the proposals when we do ask a question, well, we'll tell you later, we'll do this or that.

752
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:51,880
 So if I'm coming from the wrong and this gets me off the committee, so be it.

753
01:14:51,880 --> 01:15:08,880
 But it's really hard, you know, if I want to build a house and I say I have X amount of money, I want to know what is going to be done.

754
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:22,880
 So for those of you who don't know me, I'm Sarah Hensley, I'm the city manager, and the answer to that is no. We are not oh well this, oh well that, no. I told you from the very beginning, we're going to give you the facts of what we are doing.

755
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:29,880
 The answer to this is you can take $70 million and do what you want to with it to build a new city hall and we get what we get out of it.

756
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:38,880
 You do not have to do a P3, period. You have that choice. You can say put $70 million on the bond, don't put any dollars on the bond for this project.

757
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:44,880
 You are the group that picks the projects and the money associated with those projects.

758
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:49,880
 You are asking us questions in detail. We're answering those questions the best we can.

759
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:55,880
 When you do a P3 project, you will have to have partners. That's why it's called public-private partnership.

760
01:15:55,880 --> 01:16:05,880
 We don't know who those people are. Because it's so confusing, I would highly recommend that maybe you don't focus on that. Maybe that's not what you want to do right now.

761
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:12,880
 And if you don't want to recommend $70 million, don't recommend $70 million. That's your responsibility, not ours.

762
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:18,880
 All we're doing is answering your questions, giving you the best information we can, the factual information.

763
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:26,880
 We're not trying to hide anything. We're not trying to cover anything up. We're trying to give you facts so you can make an informed decision.

764
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:32,880
 And that's what we do every day with counsel, facts, so you can make an informed decision.

765
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:40,880
 So I do take it a little bit of offense that you kind of accuse staff of stuff like that because I work with them every day and they're the most transparent people I've ever seen.

766
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:42,880
 And I personally take offense to that. I'm sorry.

767
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:46,880
 I apologize. I did not mean it as an offense.

768
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:57,880
 Okay, let's get some other comments on here. Let's take two more comments on this topic and then we'll move on.

769
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:09,880
 I think part of the problem is too many ifs and buts. We don't know, well, it could be this or it could be that, and that's frustrating.

770
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:18,880
 It's frustrating when we don't have some clear sense of where we are.

771
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:28,880
 To me, it almost feels like, and I know this is not what you're thinking, but it almost feels like it's a sacrificial lamb.

772
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:36,880
 We'll throw this one out there for the voters to pass other stuff because this is too fuzzy.

773
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:44,880
 It's not what you're thinking right now the way that you have presented it to put it to the voters.

774
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:53,880
 Another comment. Mr. Davis.

775
01:17:53,880 --> 01:18:01,880
 So I just want to kind of let staff know, especially kind of where I'm falling on this after the whole conversation.

776
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:10,880
 That we need more work space, the work-a-day space, the places where people actually are 40-plus hours a week.

777
01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:21,880
 What I worry about is if we put all of this in front of the voters without more of a plan, and I understand part of that is because you get a partner and then the plan flexes, right?

778
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:28,880
 But instead of doing that on the front end and then asking voters for the amount of money it's going to take to get that deal done,

779
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:34,880
 and they do it this way and they reject it, we don't get to use COs to build a new city building.

780
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:37,880
 We don't get to use other alternative methods of financing.

781
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:44,880
 We're stuck until the next bond issue or until that time expires where we do get to use COs and other stuff.

782
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:49,880
 If we put just what we have something of a plan for, we need space.

783
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:55,880
 X number of square feet at X number of dollars a square foot, and we put that in front of the voters.

784
01:18:55,880 --> 01:19:01,880
 That's something that can pass. The rest of it, the who's involved, nobody's involved, what's the plan,

785
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:07,880
 we don't have the full plan yet because you can't have a full plan yet in this method of procurement, all that kind of stuff.

786
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:13,880
 I think it puts on a bad footing to pass and makes it hard to finance what we really, really need,

787
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:22,880
 which is more square feet, more bathrooms, more work space, and all that kind of stuff.

788
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:27,880
 All right, well, now's the time when we're going to leave a controversial subject

789
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:33,880
 and move on to another controversial subject with affordable housing.

790
01:19:52,880 --> 01:20:00,880
 Good evening. I'm Dana Shaw. I'm the director of community services here for the city of Denver.

791
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:03,880
 I'm here to chat with you guys about affordable housing.

792
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:12,880
 Not all of it.

793
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:24,880
 How's this? Any better?

794
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:32,880
 Is this better? You wouldn't know I used to be a camp director.

795
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:36,880
 My name is Danny Shaw. I'm the director of community services here for the city of Denton.

796
01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:40,880
 I'm here to chat with you guys about affordable housing today.

797
01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:45,880
 So the city has done a comprehensive housing needs assessment and a market value analysis,

798
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:52,880
 and it won't be any surprise to you all that the market analysis and the needs assessment said

799
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:57,880
 we need more rental housing for people, especially those folks who are below 50% AMI,

800
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:02,880
 that we need more affordable mortgages for people to be homeowners,

801
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:05,880
 and that we need housing support for seniors.

802
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:08,880
 We have an aging population. We need to make sure that they can age in place

803
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:10,880
 and making sure we have supports for them to do so,

804
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:15,880
 as well as being able to interact with services around them and more access to that.

805
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:19,880
 We also do need a permanent supportive housing, additional housing units,

806
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:23,880
 and transitional housing for people with disabilities and people who are experiencing homelessness.

807
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:29,880
 There are folks who won't ever be able to earn the incomes that they need to afford our current housing in the community,

808
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:32,880
 and so making sure we have that available is important.

809
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:37,880
 And then making sure that every household has an opportunity to look and find affordable housing

810
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:43,880
 in areas of opportunity, where they can find good jobs, places where the schools are high performing,

811
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:46,880
 places where they can recreate and do all of the things that we can do all across the city

812
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:49,880
 and just making sure everyone has the same choice.

813
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:54,880
 The needs assessment at the time, it was done just before COVID,

814
01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:59,880
 so even now as you can see the data on the top of the screen as far as the dollar amount that was projected then,

815
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:02,880
 it's still the same based on incomes in our community,

816
01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:07,880
 but the prices are even escalating as we sit here right now today.

817
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:12,880
 So from that we developed a housing strategic toolkit,

818
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:18,880
 and that toolkit has five strategies and 17 activities to help us work towards

819
01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:24,880
 our commitment to incentivizing our private market to meet those needs in the community.

820
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:31,880
 And it's fairly comprehensive, it's also looking at how we leverage the tools that we already have

821
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:34,880
 and not particularly looking at big sweeping changes,

822
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:37,880
 but how do we look at how do we incentivize this through the development.

823
01:22:37,880 --> 01:22:42,880
 So infill, making sure that we're looking at our vacant and underutilized properties

824
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:45,880
 and using those for their most effective use.

825
01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:50,880
 Looking at zoning relief and variances to make sure our zoning code is inclusive

826
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:53,880
 for all of our households regardless of income.

827
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:59,880
 Looking at increasing capacity and resources, so that means making sure all of our development community,

828
01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:04,880
 especially our nonprofit development community, has the tools that they need to move into this space

829
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:07,880
 and be developers and create more affordable housing.

830
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:09,880
 And then how do we minimize displacement?

831
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:12,880
 How do we make sure that people don't get pushed out of their neighborhoods

832
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:15,880
 when we start to make improvements and incentives there?

833
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:18,880
 And then of course we have a lot of conversation to have.

834
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:21,880
 We're starting that today with you for the housing bond.

835
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:25,880
 We have a Discuss Stenton page where we're starting to talk about affordable housing

836
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:28,880
 because there's going to be a lot of discussion that we have to have

837
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:31,880
 and some of it's going to be hard, some of it's going to be easy,

838
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:36,880
 but we do have to have those conversations together and we can't wait any longer to do so.

839
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:43,880
 Within the activities themselves, we're looking at very specific and targeted tools to incentivize that behavior.

840
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:45,880
 And I'm not going to go into all of those today,

841
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:49,880
 but I do want to kind of talk through a couple of them that we're working on right now.

842
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:53,880
 The biggest one we just approved was our rental repair grant,

843
01:23:53,880 --> 01:24:00,880
 and that goal is to ask landlords or people who are investors to purchase properties that may not be so great,

844
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:06,880
 bring them up to code, bring them up to livability in exchange for that grant, in exchange for affordability.

845
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:12,880
 So they would make that unit affordable to an income renderer or buyer.

846
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:16,880
 Let's see. And then we're working on a couple of things altogether at the same time.

847
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:19,880
 Our developer incentive package is the biggest thing we're working on right now,

848
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:25,880
 and that is really looking at how we encourage infill small home communities through the zoning code

849
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:31,880
 and using incentives for developers to create such tools in housing.

850
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:34,880
 I wanted to show you this not to go into a big detail,

851
01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:40,880
 but just to give you a better explanation to understand how income is tied to rent limits.

852
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:43,880
 So when you look at this chart, this is the chart that HUD approves every year,

853
01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:47,880
 and this is the tool that we utilize in the department that I work in to determine

854
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:52,880
 if people are eligible for programs, whether it's housing or social services.

855
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:57,880
 And so you're going to hear different numbers, like Scott provided you some numbers

856
01:24:57,880 --> 01:25:00,880
 about what the area median income was. It was slightly different than this one.

857
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:06,880
 But this is the tool we use, and so for consistency, we use this when we're talking about affordability as well.

858
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:13,880
 So what this is showing you is information based on household size and income and geography.

859
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:19,880
 So this is the Dallas MSA. So in New York, these numbers will look very different than this one, right?

860
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:24,880
 And then what we do is then determine, based on household size, where someone is in their income category,

861
01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:30,880
 and that helps us determine eligibility. And then hopefully we'll make a little more sense on the next slide.

862
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:33,880
 So let me break this up into kind of three chunks.

863
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:38,880
 Right now, based on our census data and our consolidated planning that we're doing,

864
01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:48,880
 we see about 49,000 housing units in the city. Within that, about 48 percent are rental and about 44 percent are owner.

865
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:51,880
 Now, again, our economic development data will be slightly different than this.

866
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:55,880
 Our development services data will be slightly different because we just use some different data tools.

867
01:25:55,880 --> 01:26:01,880
 But we're all about pretty close to 50/50, typically in our renter and owner populations.

868
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:09,880
 Of those 49,000 units, only about 6,000 are affordable to people making 80 percent or below AMI.

869
01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:11,880
 That's not a lot of housing units.

870
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:19,880
 Nationally, there's only about 29 units per hundred available to people who are making 30 percent or below the AMI.

871
01:26:19,880 --> 01:26:27,880
 Within Denton, our household composition, almost 50 percent of our households make less than 80 percent.

872
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:32,880
 Thirty percent of those are making 50 percent or below.

873
01:26:32,880 --> 01:26:39,880
 So we have enough people in our population who are needing this assistance, making sure that they have housing based on their income.

874
01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:44,880
 And then I gave you an example on the right-hand side to show you what it looks like for a household of three.

875
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:48,880
 So this is a mom. She's a retail cashier. She has two kids.

876
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:52,880
 She's making $27,900 based on the chart I showed you, right?

877
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:57,880
 If we use the rent standard, she should only pay 30 percent of her income.

878
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:01,880
 That means she can only pay for $698 in rent.

879
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:04,880
 That's a unicorn, right? That doesn't exist.

880
01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:12,880
 So she's going to be cost burdened because she's probably going to now have to pay more than 30 percent or even more than 50 percent, being severely cost burdened.

881
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:19,880
 That means for every other decision she has to make, she's challenged whether or not she pays rent or she feeds her kids or whatever.

882
01:27:19,880 --> 01:27:28,880
 So this is why affordable housing is so important in our community and why not everyone's going to make the same income, and we need to make sure there are housing options available.

883
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:38,880
 So it turns out, though, that building affordable housing isn't especially affordable, right?

884
01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:45,880
 So what we need to be looking at, and for me, it's about bringing that development cost down however we do it.

885
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:58,880
 So that means we need to lower construction costs, and that's looking at cost-effective building solutions, things that we don't typically build right now but can make available through our tools, empowering our local builders.

886
01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:07,880
 I talked about we're working with nonprofit partners already, Habitat for Humanity, Denton Affordable Housing Corp, the Housing Authority.

887
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:15,880
 We provide grants to them to help them maintain or create new affordable housing, and that's important, but we've got to do more of that.

888
01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:21,880
 We also need to work with our private development community. It's important. They have the most money and the access to it.

889
01:28:21,880 --> 01:28:29,880
 It's not something that the city can do alone. We have to have these partnerships and these collaborations, and for us to do that means we can incentivize it, though.

890
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:36,880
 The city does have a role to play. We do have some ability to make some fluctuations, lower some barriers to make sure that developers can do what we need them to do,

891
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:44,880
 including creating even more market rate because that will also lessen the pressure on our housing system.

892
01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:49,880
 We need to, again, like I talked about in Phil, is just using our existing land and unused buildings better.

893
01:28:49,880 --> 01:29:02,880
 We can't leave it sitting around. We can use it. We can use it effectively, and we can reduce pressure on more rural areas of our community as well by making it happen in areas where you already have infrastructure so it's cheaper to build.

894
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:09,880
 There's a lot of creative things that we can do just through incentive-based policy, and then for larger developments, we need to have a seat at the table in some way.

895
01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:16,880
 Wayne alluded to it in his previous presentation. I think it's important to have that. We can't just do development agreements.

896
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:27,880
 We need to have some incentives that bring us to the table so that developers want to work with us and so that we can have them create affordability in everything that they do, not just some developments in the community.

897
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:32,880
 Then, of course, we need to preserve those moderately priced homes that we already have.

898
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:41,880
 The affordable housing toolkit that I talked about at the time that we developed it gave us a goal of 4,300 units that we needed to create.

899
01:29:41,880 --> 01:29:47,880
 You can see in this graphic that some of that was in rental housing and some of that was in homeownership.

900
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:57,880
 The needs assessment said we needed 4,300 units. The toolkit that we developed, we have a goal to create at least 1,700 units out of the tools that we're already talking about.

901
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:07,880
 Of course, we hope that they will grow and expand over time, but that still leaves us with this remaining need of about 2,500 units based on a figure that was set pre-COVID.

902
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:24,880
 I just want to keep that in your mind. What that means is for us, having the opportunity to talk to you about potential bond package for affordable housing that would give us some tools means that we would have additional funding to knock out some of that remaining need as well as expand on the need that's happening because of growth.

903
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:42,880
 How we're proposing the funds would be utilized, no matter what amount you authorize or recommend, we think that about 75% of it will be in just land acquisition alone. Get those vacant properties, we'll get those underutilized properties, we'll get them in use, and then we will make them available through our developer incentive package.

904
01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:49,880
 That means we will say, "We've got land. You can have it if you will build affordability in those."

905
01:30:49,880 --> 01:31:09,880
 We'll also look at some direct financing. One of the 17 activities is to create a pre-development fund, which would give developers access to low-interest loans, reducing the capital, so it reduces the cost for them, and then they pay it back, and then that loan becomes a revolving loan that we can do packages ongoing.

906
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:22,880
 We want to expand our capacity and resources to deliver, and that's grants. We want to build up our nonprofit developers to be bigger, so they can do more in the community on their own. They can be stronger. They can create more housing.

907
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:35,880
 Housing assistance projects, that's what we already do. We're good at it. We just put a little more funding in it so that we can do more in the community. That's our proposal, and I will open it up for questions.

908
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:39,880
 Is there a price tag associated with this proposal?

909
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:46,880
 Well, we originally had proposed $10 million, but somebody mentioned that maybe you could make some more available, so it's up to your recommendation, though.

910
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:56,880
 Got it. Okay, so this is the time for questions for Danny or others. Question back here.

911
01:31:56,880 --> 01:32:08,880
 Can you give us any insight into how $10 million was selected as a number, because we're looking at projects like $15 million, I think around $30 million, and affordable housing is one of the kind of greatest needs for the city in my mind.

912
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:20,880
 I know friends who are leaving, friends who have become homeless, friends who have been priced out of their community, and so to my mind, this is a very important topic, so how is that $10 million number reached?

913
01:32:20,880 --> 01:32:28,880
 Yeah, I think it was the original proposal based on looking at what I talked about before. So we're not looking to pay for development. We're looking to incentivize that.

914
01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:45,880
 So let's say it's $10 million for land, and we use $7.5 million for land. We would make that seven properties, for example, at $1 million each that we could make available to a developer, and each one of those creates 300 units, as an example.

915
01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:58,880
 That would be a way that we're, you know, leveraging the developer community with a lower amount of funding. And then the original proposal in our affordable housing strategic toolkit was $500,000 for the pre-development loan program, so we built that right into it.

916
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:05,880
 But that, to be clear, that's not like a cap. That's not like all of the capacity available to you if you were given more funds.

917
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:16,880
 Absolutely. Okay. I'll take everything you give me. I want to be like Gary Packen and just buy lots of land.

918
01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:24,880
 Is the affordable housing all over the city of Denton, or is it primarily in one specific section of the city?

919
01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:38,880
 Right now, based on how our affordable housing tools are, so it's really just the housing tax credit program and our nonprofit developers. So a lot of our affordability is concentrated in District 1 and District 2 of the city. It does not expand out.

920
01:33:38,880 --> 01:33:40,880
 Go ahead, Gary.

921
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:49,880
 Great job, Danny. Do any of your strategies depend on the Public Facilities Corporation, or maybe talk about how the PFC and this could work together?

922
01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:58,880
 Yeah, so we had proposed a PFC, or Council had asked for a review of what a PFC would look like. Our Housing Authority already does those.

923
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:04,880
 We put a proposal together, and what the PFC would have done for us is create some of these other funding mechanisms, right?

924
01:34:04,880 --> 01:34:15,880
 And it would also, most importantly, put us at the door of those development conversations. So right now, we don't have any control when a PFC is created and what the deal is that's made.

925
01:34:15,880 --> 01:34:25,880
 And so right now, the PFC structure is pretty big, right? It allows for 100% tax exemption for only, you know, 50% of the units being affordable.

926
01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:38,880
 We would want to be at the table, both negotiating better deals for affordability, as well as then the revenues that we might make off of those deals to, you know, put back into affordable housing programs.

927
01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:39,880
 There's a question over here.

928
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:41,880
 That did not pass, so I just wanted to make that clear.

929
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:43,880
 Did that last part again?

930
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:46,880
 It did not.

931
01:34:46,880 --> 01:34:47,880
 We don't have that tool.

932
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:55,880
 Danny, do you know if there's any federal grant money that would augment what you're proposing?

933
01:34:55,880 --> 01:35:02,880
 Yeah, in a lot of different ways. So we're already an entitlement community, so we receive community development block grant and home investment partnerships.

934
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:07,880
 But our funding is pretty limited. So our home funds is about $500,000 a year.

935
01:35:07,880 --> 01:35:14,880
 So if it takes $250,000 a year to create a single unit of affordable, you can see that's only going to create a couple of units.

936
01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:19,880
 But we've also been looking at, and I'll shout out to Ditton Affordable Housing Corp.

937
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:27,880
 They got some new funding from HUD recently for additional capacity building that we were very grateful that they went out and applied for and got.

938
01:35:27,880 --> 01:35:33,880
 So those are examples of how we can look at different tools out there that we can seek out funding for.

939
01:35:33,880 --> 01:35:37,880
 I believe there's some matching grant money out there that I'll send you some links.

940
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:40,880
 Thank you, ma'am. Happy to take it.

941
01:35:40,880 --> 01:35:42,880
 Mindy and Kim.

942
01:35:42,880 --> 01:35:53,880
 For the land property acquisition piece, if the city owns the land and you're working a development deal with a private developer to build, are they still able to take advantage of the state tax credits on that property?

943
01:35:53,880 --> 01:35:58,880
 Yeah, we use a fun term called capital stacks, so we could leverage a lot of different resources in one project.

944
01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:04,880
 So let's say we could put, you know, the land is a million dollars. They get to put that in their application, too.

945
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:07,880
 They get the housing tax credits for some bond funding to help fund it.

946
01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:09,880
 We could put some home fund in to do a unit.

947
01:36:09,880 --> 01:36:14,880
 So there's a lot of ways we could leverage lots of funding to make even one development happen.

948
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,880
 She just had a birthday yesterday, so we'll give her the microphone.

949
01:36:17,880 --> 01:36:19,880
 Happy birthday.

950
01:36:19,880 --> 01:36:22,880
 Quick question. Actually, I have two questions.

951
01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:33,880
 Number one, do you have any data on how many of these units are going to elderly disabled families that have small children?

952
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:39,880
 If I could just kind of see who's going to be living there in terms of the demographics.

953
01:36:39,880 --> 01:36:41,880
 Yeah, we'd be on a development by development.

954
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:50,880
 We have an affordable housing map right now on the city's web page where you can go and look at units are and who it's serving and are existing.

955
01:36:50,880 --> 01:36:54,880
 So that data is available, but I can see what we can pull just to give you an idea.

956
01:36:54,880 --> 01:36:58,880
 I think it would be important for us to look at priorities, right?

957
01:36:58,880 --> 01:37:03,880
 So making sure as we're looking at the entire development package that we're making sure senior housing gets created.

958
01:37:03,880 --> 01:37:05,880
 We're making sure that family housing is created.

959
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:09,880
 So it's a part of it, but we don't have specific numbers on each of those targets.

960
01:37:09,880 --> 01:37:11,880
 I'm going to wind myself through this one.

961
01:37:11,880 --> 01:37:18,880
 How long do folks that are just trying to transition generally stay in affordable housing?

962
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:20,880
 Oh, that's a really good question.

963
01:37:20,880 --> 01:37:32,880
 It depends on the population to like people experiencing homelessness is very different than people who are working and are needing just that 50 to 80 percent level.

964
01:37:32,880 --> 01:37:35,880
 So I'll have to look at that to give you kind of a better idea.

965
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:36,880
 Tell me where you're trying to get to.

966
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:40,880
 Maybe I can as a as a former teacher and principal.

967
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:46,880
 And if you look at any data, the number one thing that kills the students likelihood of success is mobility.

968
01:37:46,880 --> 01:37:50,880
 That's if they are moving from one apartment complex to the next and then bouncing back and forth.

969
01:37:50,880 --> 01:38:00,880
 What I want to know is that we're going to make this investment and this mother, this cashier, those two kids stay at Sam Houston and then go to McMath and then go to high school.

970
01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:01,880
 And they are able to make that transition.

971
01:38:01,880 --> 01:38:03,880
 And there's very little mobility.

972
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:05,880
 Yeah, I think that's an interesting question.

973
01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:12,880
 I'd like to think there, too, about how we make development agreements so that we make sure we're not seeing skyrocketing rents over time for those folks.

974
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:16,880
 It stays affordable for long enough for them to stay. So those are great questions.

975
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:18,880
 Thank you.

976
01:38:18,880 --> 01:38:22,880
 Any other questions?

977
01:38:22,880 --> 01:38:29,880
 All right, let's talk at our table a little bit and debrief on this and then we'll come back to see if there's anything else.

978
01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:52,880
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979
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980
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981
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982
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983
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984
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985
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986
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987
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988
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989
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990
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991
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992
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993
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994
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995
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996
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997
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998
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999
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1000
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1001
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1002
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1003
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1004
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1005
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1006
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1007
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1008
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1009
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1010
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1011
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1012
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1013
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1014
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1015
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1016
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1017
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1018
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1019
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1020
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1021
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1022
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1023
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1024
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1025
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1026
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1027
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1028
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1029
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1030
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1031
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1032
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1033
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1034
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1035
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1036
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1037
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1038
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1039
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1040
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1041
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1042
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1043
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1044
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1045
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1046
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1047
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1048
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1049
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1050
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1051
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1052
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1053
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1054
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1055
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1056
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1057
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1058
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1059
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1060
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1061
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1062
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1063
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1064
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1065
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1066
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1067
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1068
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1069
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1070
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1071
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1072
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1073
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1074
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1075
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1076
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1077
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1078
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1079
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1080
02:02:20,880 --> 02:02:44,880
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1081
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1082
02:02:54,880 --> 02:03:18,880
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1083
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1084
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1085
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1086
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1087
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1088
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1089
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1090
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1091
02:05:20,880 --> 02:05:30,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1092
02:05:30,880 --> 02:05:40,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1093
02:05:40,880 --> 02:05:50,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1094
02:05:50,880 --> 02:06:00,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1095
02:06:00,880 --> 02:06:10,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1096
02:06:10,880 --> 02:06:34,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1097
02:06:34,880 --> 02:06:44,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1098
02:06:44,880 --> 02:06:54,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1099
02:06:54,880 --> 02:07:04,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1100
02:07:04,880 --> 02:07:24,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1101
02:07:24,880 --> 02:07:34,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1102
02:07:34,880 --> 02:07:44,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1103
02:07:44,880 --> 02:07:54,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1104
02:07:54,880 --> 02:08:18,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1105
02:08:18,880 --> 02:08:28,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1106
02:08:28,880 --> 02:08:52,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1107
02:08:52,880 --> 02:09:02,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1108
02:09:02,880 --> 02:09:12,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1109
02:09:12,880 --> 02:09:22,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1110
02:09:22,880 --> 02:09:32,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1111
02:09:32,880 --> 02:09:42,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1112
02:09:42,880 --> 02:09:52,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1113
02:09:52,880 --> 02:10:02,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1114
02:10:02,880 --> 02:10:26,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1115
02:10:26,880 --> 02:10:36,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1116
02:10:36,880 --> 02:10:46,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1117
02:10:46,880 --> 02:10:56,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1118
02:10:56,880 --> 02:11:16,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1119
02:11:16,880 --> 02:11:26,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1120
02:11:26,880 --> 02:11:36,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1121
02:11:36,880 --> 02:11:46,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1122
02:11:46,880 --> 02:12:10,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1123
02:12:10,880 --> 02:12:20,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1124
02:12:20,880 --> 02:12:30,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1125
02:12:30,880 --> 02:12:40,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1126
02:12:40,880 --> 02:12:50,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1127
02:12:50,880 --> 02:13:00,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1128
02:13:00,880 --> 02:13:24,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1129
02:13:24,880 --> 02:13:34,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1130
02:13:34,880 --> 02:13:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1131
02:13:58,880 --> 02:14:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1132
02:14:08,880 --> 02:14:18,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1133
02:14:18,880 --> 02:14:28,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1134
02:14:28,880 --> 02:14:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1135
02:14:38,880 --> 02:14:48,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1136
02:14:48,880 --> 02:15:12,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1137
02:15:12,880 --> 02:15:22,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1138
02:15:22,880 --> 02:15:46,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1139
02:15:46,880 --> 02:15:56,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1140
02:15:56,880 --> 02:16:20,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1141
02:16:20,880 --> 02:16:30,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1142
02:16:30,880 --> 02:16:50,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1143
02:16:50,880 --> 02:17:00,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1144
02:17:00,880 --> 02:17:20,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1145
02:17:20,880 --> 02:17:30,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1146
02:17:30,880 --> 02:17:54,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1147
02:17:54,880 --> 02:18:04,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1148
02:18:04,880 --> 02:18:14,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1149
02:18:14,880 --> 02:18:24,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1150
02:18:24,880 --> 02:18:48,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1151
02:18:48,880 --> 02:18:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1152
02:18:58,880 --> 02:19:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1153
02:19:08,880 --> 02:19:18,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1154
02:19:18,880 --> 02:19:28,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1155
02:19:28,880 --> 02:19:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1156
02:19:38,880 --> 02:19:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1157
02:19:58,880 --> 02:20:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1158
02:20:08,880 --> 02:20:32,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1159
02:20:32,880 --> 02:20:42,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1160
02:20:42,880 --> 02:21:06,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1161
02:21:06,880 --> 02:21:16,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1162
02:21:16,880 --> 02:21:26,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1163
02:21:26,880 --> 02:21:36,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1164
02:21:36,880 --> 02:22:00,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1165
02:22:00,880 --> 02:22:10,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1166
02:22:10,880 --> 02:22:20,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1167
02:22:20,880 --> 02:22:30,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1168
02:22:30,880 --> 02:22:54,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1169
02:22:54,880 --> 02:23:04,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1170
02:23:04,880 --> 02:23:14,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1171
02:23:14,880 --> 02:23:24,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1172
02:23:24,880 --> 02:23:48,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1173
02:23:48,880 --> 02:23:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1174
02:23:58,880 --> 02:24:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1175
02:24:08,880 --> 02:24:18,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1176
02:24:18,880 --> 02:24:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1177
02:24:38,880 --> 02:24:48,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1178
02:24:48,880 --> 02:25:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1179
02:25:08,880 --> 02:25:18,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1180
02:25:18,880 --> 02:25:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1181
02:25:38,880 --> 02:25:48,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1182
02:25:48,880 --> 02:25:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1183
02:25:58,880 --> 02:26:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1184
02:26:08,880 --> 02:26:32,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1185
02:26:32,880 --> 02:26:42,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1186
02:26:42,880 --> 02:27:06,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1187
02:27:06,880 --> 02:27:16,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1188
02:27:16,880 --> 02:27:26,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1189
02:27:26,880 --> 02:27:36,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1190
02:27:36,880 --> 02:28:00,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1191
02:28:00,880 --> 02:28:10,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1192
02:28:10,880 --> 02:28:34,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1193
02:28:34,880 --> 02:28:44,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1194
02:28:44,880 --> 02:28:54,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1195
02:28:54,880 --> 02:29:04,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1196
02:29:04,880 --> 02:29:28,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1197
02:29:28,880 --> 02:29:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1198
02:29:38,880 --> 02:29:48,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1199
02:29:48,880 --> 02:29:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1200
02:29:58,880 --> 02:30:22,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1201
02:30:22,880 --> 02:30:32,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1202
02:30:32,880 --> 02:30:56,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1203
02:30:56,880 --> 02:31:06,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1204
02:31:06,880 --> 02:31:16,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1205
02:31:16,880 --> 02:31:26,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1206
02:31:26,880 --> 02:31:50,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1207
02:31:50,880 --> 02:32:00,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1208
02:32:00,880 --> 02:32:10,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1209
02:32:10,880 --> 02:32:20,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1210
02:32:20,880 --> 02:32:30,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1211
02:32:30,880 --> 02:32:40,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1212
02:32:40,880 --> 02:32:50,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1213
02:32:50,880 --> 02:33:00,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1214
02:33:00,880 --> 02:33:24,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1215
02:33:24,880 --> 02:33:34,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1216
02:33:34,880 --> 02:33:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1217
02:33:58,880 --> 02:34:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1218
02:34:08,880 --> 02:34:18,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1219
02:34:18,880 --> 02:34:28,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1220
02:34:28,880 --> 02:34:52,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1221
02:34:52,880 --> 02:35:02,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1222
02:35:02,880 --> 02:35:26,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1223
02:35:26,880 --> 02:35:36,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1224
02:35:36,880 --> 02:35:46,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1225
02:35:46,880 --> 02:35:56,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1226
02:35:56,880 --> 02:36:06,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1227
02:36:06,880 --> 02:36:16,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1228
02:36:16,880 --> 02:36:26,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1229
02:36:26,880 --> 02:36:36,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1230
02:36:36,880 --> 02:36:46,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1231
02:36:46,880 --> 02:36:56,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1232
02:36:56,880 --> 02:37:16,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1233
02:37:16,880 --> 02:37:26,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1234
02:37:26,880 --> 02:37:36,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1235
02:37:36,880 --> 02:37:46,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1236
02:37:46,880 --> 02:38:10,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1237
02:38:10,880 --> 02:38:20,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1238
02:38:20,880 --> 02:38:30,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1239
02:38:30,880 --> 02:38:40,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1240
02:38:40,880 --> 02:38:50,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1241
02:38:50,880 --> 02:39:00,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1242
02:39:00,880 --> 02:39:24,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1243
02:39:24,880 --> 02:39:34,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1244
02:39:34,880 --> 02:39:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1245
02:39:58,880 --> 02:40:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1246
02:40:08,880 --> 02:40:28,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1247
02:40:28,880 --> 02:40:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1248
02:40:38,880 --> 02:40:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1249
02:40:58,880 --> 02:41:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1250
02:41:08,880 --> 02:41:28,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1251
02:41:28,880 --> 02:41:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1252
02:41:38,880 --> 02:41:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1253
02:41:58,880 --> 02:42:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1254
02:42:08,880 --> 02:42:28,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1255
02:42:28,880 --> 02:42:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1256
02:42:38,880 --> 02:42:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1257
02:42:58,880 --> 02:43:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1258
02:43:08,880 --> 02:43:28,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1259
02:43:28,880 --> 02:43:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1260
02:43:38,880 --> 02:43:58,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1261
02:43:58,880 --> 02:44:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1262
02:44:08,880 --> 02:44:30,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1263
02:44:30,880 --> 02:44:40,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1264
02:44:40,880 --> 02:45:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1265
02:45:08,880 --> 02:45:18,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1266
02:45:18,880 --> 02:45:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1267
02:45:38,880 --> 02:45:48,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1268
02:45:48,880 --> 02:46:08,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1269
02:46:08,880 --> 02:46:18,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1270
02:46:18,880 --> 02:46:38,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1271
02:46:38,880 --> 02:46:48,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1272
02:46:48,880 --> 02:47:12,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1273
02:47:12,880 --> 02:47:22,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1274
02:47:22,880 --> 02:47:32,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1275
02:47:32,880 --> 02:47:42,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1276
02:47:42,880 --> 02:48:02,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1277
02:48:02,880 --> 02:48:12,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1278
02:48:12,880 --> 02:48:22,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1279
02:48:22,880 --> 02:48:32,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1280
02:48:32,880 --> 02:48:52,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1281
02:48:52,880 --> 02:49:02,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1282
02:49:02,880 --> 02:49:26,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1283
02:49:26,880 --> 02:49:36,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1284
02:49:36,880 --> 02:50:00,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1285
02:50:00,880 --> 02:50:10,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1286
02:50:10,880 --> 02:50:20,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1287
02:50:20,880 --> 02:50:30,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1288
02:50:30,880 --> 02:50:50,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1289
02:50:50,880 --> 02:51:00,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1290
02:51:00,880 --> 02:51:10,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]

1291
02:51:10,880 --> 02:51:20,880
 [SIDE CONVERSATION]