>> Okay everybody, good evening and welcome to the Monday, February 4th,
2019 City of Denton Traffic Safety Commission.
It is 5 31, we have a quorum and we will get started.
Number 1 on our agenda is items-- under items for consideration is 1A TSC 19-008 which is
to consider approval of the minutes for the Traffic Safety Commission meeting
for January 7th, 2019.
Has everybody had a chance to take a look at the minutes?
Were there any corrections?
Okay, in that case, do we have a motion for approval?
>> Motion for approval.
>> And do we have a second?
>> Second.
>> All right, everyone in favor?
>> Aye.
>> Opposed?
Excellent, unanimous.
That brings us to item 1B TSC 19-009 which is to receive a report, hold a discussion
and provide staff direction regarding bicycle lanes on West Hickory Street
between Avenue B and Welsh Streets.
>> And Mark is chewing, sorry.
>> I'm sorry, I thought I had another item before I apologize.
Good evening, Mark Oliphant, Bicycle and Pedestrian Coordinator.
We'll be talking about bicycle lanes on Hickory Street in the Fry Street area, two block area.
This is a hot topic, we brought it last week to the Mobility Committee and discussed it there.
I also like to get the Traffic Safety Commission's take on it as well.
Just to orient you, so Hickory Street is a one-way eastbound road with two lanes parking
on both sides currently in this area.
There are businesses, bars, restaurants and so forth.
In the current approved mobility, I'm sorry, Bicycle and Pedestrian Plan,
it calls for a bike lane along the length of Hickory Street from I-35 here all the way
to Carroll Boulevard and this portion is a part of that.
In the Oak Gateway Area Plan, that is also discussed, the same stretch of road.
There are two recommendations, the original create a continuous bike lane along Hickory Street
and develop a street cross section for Hickory Street which incorporates a number
of different speed limits, rights of way, overhead utilities, things like that.
Parking patterns, we installed a camera on the corner of Hickory and Fry Street
and recorded parking patterns for about one week.
This was in, I want to say August or September once school had started
and recorded what the patterns were of people parking here, where they were going.
During the day, during school, many of them went to UNT but outside of those hours,
they also did park there and go to restaurants, bars and other things like that,
go to the other side of the street.
So we, because this was a controversial issue, we hired a consultant,
a very well-known company called Alta Planning and Design.
They're nationally recognized for Bicycle and Pedestrian work and they came
up with five different options for us for this area.
I'm going to go through each of those.
So option one, I'll say option one and two are very similar.
They involve removing parking on the street.
We would lose an area of 20 to 24 parking spaces
and we would have bike lanes on the streets.
So here's the first one.
We remove parking on the north side of Hickory Street and then we would have a,
what we call a parking protected bike lane.
You can see on the south side, the parallel parking protects the bike lane
and you have about a three-foot buffer with that bike lane there.
That's on the first block.
On the second block, similar, although it would no longer be parking protected,
parking would be retained on the north side.
And then up to Welch Street, you'd keep your bike lane
on the south side parking on the north side.
Option two is somewhat similar except this one,
we would not have the bike lane be parking protected.
The parking would stay on the north side of Hickory Street
and you would still have a buffer though between the bike lane
and the regular vehicular travel lane.
I'm going to continue on here.
You can see in the green, this is what's called a bike box.
It's at Avenue A and-- oh, this is actually-- I'm sorry, Avenue A is on this side.
Fry is here.
This is helps when you have a red light or something that bicycles can get
in front of the cars where they can see them and then get repositioned on the lanes
and ending at Welch Street.
So, those are the two options that keep the lanes right or give a--
it gives a bike lane in harmony with the plan and that lane stays on the road.
Option three, here we go.
This one is interesting.
It keeps all of the on-street parking and for a one-block section,
it moves the bike lane behind the curb, a cycle track is what we call that.
So, let's go.
So, right now currently we have a nine-foot sidewalk
on the south side of Hickory Street.
This would bring in a bike lane, have a small curb and then have the sidewalk next
to it more or less for the one-block section.
And this way, you save all of the parking.
Similar bike box here, the bicycles would return to traffic once they get
to Avenue A Fry and then continue on like those first two options.
And so, this saves a lot of parking between Avenue B and Avenue A Fry.
Option four, this is our least favorite option from a traffic
and transportation engineering because it tries to save everything
and in the process we lose a travel lane.
And the loss of that travel lane would severely adversely impact the throughput
of the roadway, currently you have two lanes but often due to loading
and unloading, cars stopping to parallel park, things like that,
you lose the functionality of one lane.
So, this takes it down to only one through lane and we do not endorse this
but we at least wanted to show it and show what that would look like.
So, you are from Avenue B to Avenue A Fry and continuing onward.
You go back at Welch, you get back to two lanes again.
But that would be a severe choke point.
Finally, option five, this one came out fairly late in the game due
to some brainstorming with the Oak Gateway Area Plan working group.
And what this tries to achieve is slowing down all of the traffic in this area
so that it is a safe place for vehicles, pedestrians, bicycles,
all of those different user groups to mix.
It would incorporate some add-on features such as speed tables,
raised crosswalks, bulb outs, if you are familiar with those
where near intersections and so forth, the intersection narrows
and that psychologically signals to drivers to slow down.
One thing we've also thought about adding here is possible mid-block crossings
between Avenue B and A Fry and between A Fry and Welch because there is
so much pedestrian traffic in the area and there's actually a great deal
of jaywalking right now just because it's such a popular pedestrian area.
So, here's another up close there, this is the Fry and Avenue A intersection.
I'll go to the third slide here, so on your right side you can see these are the bolt
down features and what we tried to do here was only use features that could be removed
that were not permanent so that this could in some ways function as an experiment.
So, up top those are speed tables made out of like high density polymer
that are bolted to the asphalt.
Next to it speed cushions similar, those allow for high clearance vehicles such as fire trucks,
emergency vehicles to transit at a higher rate of speed.
And below other options, these are a bike rail here made out of steel that bolts
to the road surface and also planters, that's something that's also often used
to kind of help delineate infrastructure or a more visually appealing means of doing that.
So, that is our fifth option.
Now, the mobility committee did give us some direction about this.
We presented the five options, they preferred option three which is that cycle track
for the one block length between Avenue B and Avenue A fry.
But there-- that is one of the least simple options I'll say.
It does involve coordination with UNT and actually today I was meeting with them talking
about some of the different options here.
So, either widening that current sidewalk or perhaps separating the bike lane
and the sidewalk we're looking into possibilities.
But then also we are looking at the possibility of changing the traffic pattern,
just investigating what that would look like on Avenue A south of Hickory Street.
That's been talked about as a traffic calming feature but it continues the search
for the perfect solution continues.
That concludes my presentation, I'd be happy to take your questions.
>> I have a question about the pattern, the traffic pattern on Avenue A,
what are they thinking about?
>> Two possibilities that we're just investigating are either closing off Avenue A
at Hickory Street, have more or less a cul-de-sac there, vehicles could turn around
or making it a one-way street just on Avenue A northbound
so the vehicles won't turn southbound off of Hickory and you avoid the possibility
of your right hook, vehicle, bicycle, crash possibility.
That's a lot of bicycle vehicle accidents are that right hook where bicycles are traveling
on the right side, vehicle doesn't see them, either turns in front of them or into them
and a dangerous situation, it would avoid that.
Currently though there are UNT buses and DCTA buses that do make the right turn
so that is something that we certainly have to consider and as we investigate this.
>> Can we see a visual?
Can you bring up one of the-- on Plan B that they were talking about and then it might change?
>> Hi, Pritam Deshmukh, traffic engineer for the city.
Let me go back to the maps and talk about this particular alternative.
What was happening is in the discussion we had with the mobility committee,
it was brought up that why don't we look at adding more parking spaces
and this would be a good space, this particular segment of Avenue A would be a good section
to look at if we turn it into one way or if we do a--
shut down this area and convert it into a cul-de-sac, this would be used as unidirectional
which means you can actually angle park on this side and add a bunch of space.
Currently it looks like parking but this is all loading area, this is loading and loading.
There are quite a few things that we need to talk to especially bring it back
to the business owners and see if this is something that they'll be willing to explore.
Talk to UNT, we started that discussion, we haven't received any firm responses as to,
you know, are they on board, how are they-- are they willing to even consider that.
So if we go with this option, it'll be one direction northbound in this direction
and you can actually angle parking the same angle this is
and this signal will be outbound only so there is no inbound access going south.
And we're looking at some numbers for traffic and from a traffic number standpoint,
there's very few people that are actually using this leg going south so that is a plus
but there are several as I mentioned, there are several things that we're looking at.
And one of the things that was brought up, if we add parking here then is there a possibility
of removing the parking ads on Hickory?
So can we do a swap sort of deal and how much or what's the impact?
So that's the item that we're investigating.
We don't have a firm answer since it was just brought up last week.
We did have a meeting with UNT as a start but we don't have a confirmed answer.
So on the option that mobility committee picked was option three,
they also wanted to see if it was feasible as well as they wanted to see
if there is some kind of balance, you know, not losing the parking
but at the same time there's a bike lane that is provided.
So if we go with the closure of this particular street and add parking here,
then there is a chance that we can reconsider and look into option one
or two as recommendation here.
So there's a lot of things happening and there is no firm decision.
But I'll leave it up to the committee which option they prefer
and if they have any questions.
>> Oh, I just want to say real quickly that it looks like the data that we have
from the traffic study really 90 percent of people who park
on Hickory Street go south, go over to the university.
So losing the parking spots on Hickory and adding them
on Avenue A would serve the purpose really
that the parking spots are serving.
>> Yes, but we do have to bring it back to the business and make sure
that they're okay with the swap, they're okay with--
and then UNT has to be involved.
So we haven't really vetted this scenario.
This just came about last week.
>> Yeah. Well, I think it's something we should.
That would be something I would say we should continue that discussion.
>> On that, I'm bringing it back to the business.
Are we sure that parking spots equal more business for the businesses?
Are we sure that that's like an even swap or could it be possible
that if we build a more bike pedestrian friendly street
that that actually long term increases business for businesses?
Do we know-- do we have much data on that?
>> I think he has an answer but I would like to start with some of the businesses
and correct me if I'm wrong Mark, you've talked to Chipotle.
They don't really have parking per se.
They're using city parking as their parking.
So there is no assigned or area parking for them.
So if they start producing the number of parking that is available,
then really those people that really want to come to this area wouldn't show up for lunch.
But he has some research information on--
>> Yeah. And it really, honestly, isn't that a chance that businesses take
when you put your business in the middle of a high pedestrian low parked area,
you're making that business decision that you want traffic, foot traffic, not car traffic
because there's another Chipotle at Razor Ranch.
You can drive to it.
>> Right.
>> OK. I'm sorry Mark.
Carry on.
>> No, that's fine.
There is scholarship out there.
There's articles and so forth that discuss this and in a number
of contexts, yes, making a neighborhood or an area more pedestrian
and bicycle friendly can definitely contribute to improvements in business to greater sales.
I do have a hard time though, I don't know quite what the word is,
comparing those directly to Fry Street and downtown Denton.
A lot of the research is large metropolitan areas, New York City, Philadelphia, Canada,
Toronto where you have a robust grid network, you have people who are accustomed
to using public transit, to walking many places and things like that.
So, I haven't seen something yet that I feel comfortable putting in front
of the business owners and saying I really think this will be a good tradeoff to you
but I agree that there is evidence out there for this in a number of contexts
and we've had some great research provided to us to use for that.
>> Well, one thing to that point is just I'm curious too, it's hard to imagine it
because Denton has been so suburban even in its urban areas.
We've built around cars for so many years but, you know, I think of like Portland
and Amsterdam and these cities that you just go back 20, 30 years ago
and they had no bike infrastructure.
Now, they're like known for biking because they built it.
>> Right.
>> And so, it's hard to ever know what's going to happen but, you know,
this area is already really popular and I think about how many times I've been
to Chipotle, I've never driven a car there and I've been there a lot.
I've had too many burritos there.
And so, anyway, I just am curious too if we're overestimating because we're
so used to seeing I park and I walk into a store
that we're underestimating how many people are walking from UNT and their cars parked
in a parking garage a long ways away but they're spending the day there
and they're going to all these businesses.
So, it would be great if we-- I'd love to see if we could figure out a way
to even look at that.
The other thing is we-- you know, when we took away the parking,
I'm sure that's made it people park there longer and hurt their business
and we may-- we took away the pay parking in that area and I can't imagine
that that didn't hurt businesses for all that because people park there longer
and just risk it with the ticket if there's no time period there.
So, I'm wondering if that's something we could relook at as a way to ensure
that people are going to Chipotle, getting their car out of the way
so a new customer can go into those spots.
>> I will say out of all of the areas of Denton that I'm familiar with, this is--
this intersection, Frye Avenue A and Hickory is one of the most pedestrian dents
and so if there is a location in Denton that would be conducive,
I think this would be a very good candidate but I'm just, you know, it's--
when someone's livelihood is on the line, I'm very hesitant to make that direct
recommendation or approach.
>> And actually, to your point about how the car turnover,
I did the math on the numbers were provided.
So, on the southbound side, only 89 cars park there during that--
one of these average days when if we had enforced paid two-hour parking,
we could have parked 144 cars there.
So, those businesses, if they were thinking about this,
we are losing over 50 cars worth of business because people are parking
for the day to go to school.
So, they're, you know, kind of shooting themselves in the foot here because they are--
they want parking yet don't want paid parking and-- but in reality,
people are parking and like I said, even if we take out two spots there,
we should have about 132 cars turning over during the course of the day instead
of 89 cars on the south side turning over.
So, they're losing-- I mean, the area is losing warm bodies anyway.
>> I do know the Oak Gateway area plan did recommend parking benefit districts
and from speaking with business owners there, I know there's a great deal
of interest in that, but that would all have to be worked out how
that might work and so forth.
>> OK. Do we want to hear?
>> I think that's your own too, Hedda.
>> I'm sorry?
>> Mr. Allen had a question also.
>> I just want to point out something to you.
All the circulars on the whole-- on the entire campus being green, the discovery park,
they all come down and they turn right on Avenue A and they go back through Mulberry to Welsh.
Now, if they could-- they could go down to Welsh and take a right but they can't do it
with that corner because you've got two lanes coming up blocking
and that 35-foot bus can't make that right turn.
And you've got the handicapped corner which the wheel goes up on.
So, you'd have to change that whole corner and that whole thing to make it work.
And you're going to hear this from UNT because we're talking about all--
the entire circulars of the being green, they go to Fouts Field, they go to Apogee,
they all come down Hickory and turn right at Avenue A. And they could go up--
if you could work, make it work and go up to the corner if you want to.
But then-- and we could also go straight out from Welsh to Oak.
But you'd have to put a stoplight there to make it safe for us to make a left turn
on Oak and go out to Bonnie Bray.
Now, if you did that, it wouldn't bother us as far as the 35-foot bus.
But I got a question, you know, we've been doing this thing for two years.
We started with taking the-- remember, we started with taking off the parking,
paying the parking.
He didn't want to do the nickels and dimes.
And then we went to the, you know, the smartphone thing.
They said, "Well, let's take it all off."
Then the business owner said, "Well, you know, we want it just like the square.
We want the two-hour parking."
But nobody enforces it.
Then, "Oh, yeah, then we gave the enforcement to UNT."
And nobody enforces it.
So, you know, and then my other question is if--
in order to do the pedestrian, the bicycle people right, they need--
they need to-- they don't need to go off here and-- they need a one path.
Otherwise, not just casual, but if you're going to have, you know,
tournaments and you get a lot of people.
>> Yeah, there are definite objections from the cycling community to being diverted off
of the main roadway under option three for a block and then return to the pavement
and what's included in leaving and returning to the roadway
and possible dangerous interactions with moving vehicles.
>> Well, I just want to point the bus thing out to you.
>> I appreciate that.
>> It can be made-- it can be done, but it's going to cost you money to fix Welsh
and Hickory for us to make a right turn there and then for us to stop signs.
I mean, not a stop sign, but an actual light to get onto Oak.
Because of that high berm on the right-hand side,
we can't see the oncoming traffic at Oak and Hickory-- Oak and Welsh, I'm sorry.
>> Thank you.
>> Jeff.
>> Yeah, I was just curious in your suggestion on--
or one of the suggestions on switching the parking spots from Hickory to Avenue A,
is it an even swap or what's the numbers on that?
>> It's close.
We think we could put 16 to 20 on that west side diagonal angled parking,
but you would lose, I think, 24 up here.
So it's not quite, but you save some of them.
>> Close.
>> To point out that option where you would like to--
>> Yeah.
>> Parking on both sides of the street is in 19 spaces, so it's in the realm of possible.
You might be able to swap it.
>> But you're not making any allowance for deliveries.
>> That's true.
Currently, here, it's marked as a loading zone.
What we hear is it's mostly used for delivery drivers of the Jimmy Johns and things
like that who quickly park there, run in and get their deliveries and take them out.
If it were 16 on that side, then we would have space for a delivery area.
I think if we went to 20, we wouldn't have that space or a loading zone.
>> Well, I mean, it's just-- it's not just Jimmy Johns, it's Cisco.
>> Oh, right.
The big ones as well.
>> With a 40-foot van.
>> Yeah.
>> And then those people would have to pull into the very hall and they'd go back in there.
>> Right here.
>> I don't know what they deliver, but there's a lot of cars that go back in there.
>> I had a couple of just clarifications.
On option two, when you said the buffer, was that paint or was that protected on option two?
>> Just paint on option two.
With that width, you could potentially put the plastic-- the flexible delineator posts,
but there's not enough width to put a planter or something like that.
Potentially one of those, if you recall from option three-- or I'm sorry, option five,
one of those bolt down could-- you see here, it's down through the middle.
That is a potential option and it has those plastic reflective posts.
>> So otherwise, option one is the only one that has an actual protected bike lane built
into the proposal.
>> Correct.
>> OK.
>> You said-- did I hear you say that the mobility committee suggested five
and you said it was three?
>> Three.
>> What was the five?
>> Which one did the mobility--
>> Yeah, three, three.
Of the five options, they like number three.
I think that was my-- yeah, of the five, they like number three.
>> All right, Michelle, we have several cards.
Should we continue our discussion post hearing from the public?
OK. So I have four cards and I'll call you up, but if anybody else wants to speak on this
who has not yet submitted a card, you can still speak, fill out a card afterward.
So I have Alejandro first.
So if you would come up to the front, state your name and your address
and then give us your comments.
>> Howdy.
OK.
>> And questions.
>> OK. Howdy.
My name is Alejandro Guerrero Juarez.
I live at 425 Fulton Street, 76201 Denton, Texas.
And I have been following this issue since the open hall from the committee,
the West Oak Committee or something like that, in November or December at Calhoun Middle School.
And I also spoke-- I attended and spoke at the last city council meeting about three weeks ago
about this issue as well and also watched the live stream of the mobility committee
when during my break at work.
I wanted to attend, but I have to be at work like the next minute.
So I instead watched the live stream so I can stay informed about it.
And I bring up the live stream because there was one moment in particular
where I verbally expressed my frustration at my computer and that only happens
when I'm playing video games, only.
So for me to do that about a committee hearing or to a committee hearing should say a lot
about how worried I am about this.
And so I don't-- I'm not going to mention what the moment was, who was speaking.
I just want-- I just want you guys to know that there was one point that I was really frustrated
and that's why I'm here today because I asked myself and I want you guys to ask yourself
and really think about it, what are we prioritizing here?
Are we prioritizing the safety of not only cyclists but all citizens of the community?
Are we prioritizing their safety or are we prioritizing the success
of the businesses, of the local businesses?
I understand both are really important for communities to exist and to prosper
and to grow and to succeed.
I visit a lot of the restaurants down here.
I go to Jimmy John's a lot, I go to Sushi Cafe a lot, and I also go to Ora Coffee a lot.
And I don't want to see those businesses fail.
I want them to succeed as any community should see their businesses succeed.
But as a citizen that walks around here a lot and someone that used to cycle
around here a lot, I want you guys to think about it.
Who are we prioritizing?
What are we prioritizing?
And that's what I really want you guys to understand, like a car is like a ton.
A bike has nothing against the car.
A car can completely demolish a bicycle, completely demolish a cyclist.
The cars should be the least of our focuses.
And this issue really right now, kind of straight away, but this issue really right now
is about who are we prioritizing and this should be fixed soon rather than later
because I know some of you guys have been working on it for two plus years on this issue.
And I've only been following it for like four months.
But this is an issue that needs to be fixed now.
And I know the streets need to be paved soon.
And I just want to say I'm in favor of a bike lane on the south side towards UNT
because we want a consistent path of bike lane like Mr. Owens mentioned.
We want a consistency in the bike lane.
And then parking, I know we're going to lose parking for a lot of the local businesses.
But we can fix that later.
Oh, sorry.
I didn't notice.
Okay.
Thank you.
Okay.
All right.
You have questions?
Oh, okay.
Garrett, if you would come to the front, state your name, your address.
And I forgot to tell Alejandro he had three minutes.
But you did great.
Hi, I'm Garrett Rimmor.
I'm at 1700 Crescent.
And yeah, just I agree with the written staff recommendation for options one or two.
I haven't really, I guess, voiced the negatives that I see in some of the plans.
So I'd like to kind of walk through a little bit of some of my preferences for some of them.
Some of the negatives that I see with option one is that it's not the most consistent
of the plans. If you look further up on back towards Bonnie Bray on Hickory,
you have parking on the north side and bike lane on the south with the two travel lanes in between.
This one kind of flip flops it during this area so that you do end up with cars on the south,
parked on south side with the bike lane.
So you get a little bit of lane shifting.
And so I'm not sure on the effect that'll have with the drivers.
But it is a notable, notable difference.
And then I also have some concerns about coming out from behind a row of parked cars
at the traffic light and kind of rejoining traffic a bit.
It kind of seems like you could hide behind the cars and kind of surprise the driver if
they forget about you as you travel down that segment of Hickory.
So option two is my favorite.
It lines up with the existing road configuration like before and after.
So I think it's the one that makes the most sense.
It's also the one that's most, I guess, fiscally responsible and has the lowest price.
I would like to see vertical delineators of some sort on there just to try to give an extra buffer.
I think otherwise you may end up seeing like a Highland Street type behavior as far as
the bike lane being used for loading and unloading.
And then option three, the cycle track.
I like the thought and effort in trying to take all of the checkboxes to keep people happy,
but it feels kind of underdeveloped at this time.
I think a cycle track would be a good potential for use in Denton if it were more places.
But here we're trying to use it to patch a single issue.
And so you're going to create a very inconsistent path through the area
with jumping on and off into the road and out of the road.
So it's also a downhill, so I've been kind of trying to, whenever I ride down Hickory,
try to visualize moving over to the sidewalk and traveling down it.
And you clear that block in very little time.
And so the idea of trying to go up on there mixed with potentially pedestrian traffic,
which I'm sure once it gets done, it has a potential for just being a very nice sidewalk
and there'll be person bicycle conflict created.
And so yeah, I just think it needs more work.
- You've got eight seconds.
- Okay, and then kind of the rest, I think kind of speak for themselves, the calm street.
I think you'll have issues with buses and severely making all the turns.
So thank you for your time.
- All right, thank you.
- Okay, Daisy, and give us your name, address.
- Hi there, my name's Daisy Horta.
I am at 3252 Bent Creek Drive.
On my card, I think I selected I was in support, and I think what I meant by that
in my comments was I'm supportive of any kind of infrastructure that helps bicycles,
but I am not in support of option three for some of the reasons that Garrett had stated.
And also things to consider that I have not yet heard were doors, opening doors.
That's one of the reasons, the top reasons, at least that I've seen in articles
that cause accidents is coming from behind.
I've heard several people mention cyclists coming from behind cars, but the doors is an issue.
So with option three, we would have if people are carpooling, the passenger door option,
that barrier that would separate the pedestrians from the cyclists.
Closing in on that downhill, very short option space.
Someone mentioned jaywalking, and that's jaywalking on streets.
So who's to say that pedestrians wouldn't jaywalk on the cycle line barrier with option three,
given that they might be on their phones and, you know, not complaining,
but just being realistic of what a college campus is like.
It's not very linear, or the pedestrians are not very linear in the way that they walk.
I don't remember off the top of my head which one was option one or two,
but it seemed like both of them wore bike lanes on the street, and I am in favor of that.
Yes, there are, you know, the parking spaces that would be removed.
And I thank you, all of you, for doing your research and looking at traffic patterns and
looking at both sides of the situation.
So that is appreciated.
I know that sometimes you might get some people who complain, so thank you.
But that's the reason why I'm not in favor of option three,
but I am in favor of something that helps in any way.
And mostly just thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, and Susie.
Hi, I'm Susie, I live at 1700 Crescent Street.
Susie Rumore is my full name.
And what I want to look at is just sort of, you know,
if you look at a lot of Denton's long-term planning documents.
Sorry, I'm trying to start my stopwatch.
So if you look at a lot of Denton's long-term planning,
there's a big emphasis on more walking and biking, right?
So the reasons for that are air quality, first of all.
You know, our air quality is not great here.
Public health, a lot of us sit a lot.
Biking and walking is an easy way for us to incorporate some physical activity into our day.
There's noise pollution, road safety, and all of that adds up to quality of life.
So, you know, in order to encourage more people to bike, we have to have things that feel safe.
I found it, okay.
All right, so we need people to feel safe, right?
This is from the North Central Texas Council of Government's Bicycle Opinion Survey last year.
And if you look at this leftmost bar,
it sort of breaks down in the DFW area how people feel about biking.
So the green is strong and fearless, that is not me.
I'm more of the yellow, the enthused and confident, I'll do it.
I'm fairly confident, but I still get scared and will avoid certain roads.
But then if you look, there's 36% of people out there are interested but concerned.
They would ride more if they felt safe.
And the number one way that we make people feel safe is we separate them from car traffic.
And the way we keep them safe is we have consistent connected infrastructure.
Okay, so if you look, the next part that we have concerns about is parking.
That is the biggest thing that's preventing us from doing option one or two,
is concerns about losing parking.
If you look at the Oak Gateway Area Plan slide show from the workshop in February of last year,
they told us that 24,000 people live in this O-Gap area.
So you can see I-35 where that green dot is on the left.
Forget what the road is.
Okay, Carol is on the far right.
This area around UNT has 24,000 people.
I come from a town of about 25,000.
We have multiple coffee shops, multiple bars.
They're all sustained with just 25,000 people spread over a much bigger area.
So 24,000 people.
I live outside of this area, but I'm still within a mile or a six-minute bike ride from this area.
Okay, so they have 24,000 customers.
So plus, or potential customers.
So if you look at the sort of peach-colored things, that's multi-family.
There's apartments within like a one-minute walk from this area.
You have tons of apartments over here.
All of this is within about a mile and a half, which is within a 10-minute bike ride.
So I mean, there's tons of people here.
There's a huge supply of possible customers.
There's thousands of commuters.
There's thousands of parking spots at UNT.
Most people, once they park at UNT, they're not going to move their car to try to find a parking
spot at Hickory Street because you're not going to find one.
They just park somewhere on the UNT campus with their parking permit,
and then they just sort of walk everywhere they need to go before they leave for the day.
So I mean, there's thousands of parking spots nearby.
Thousands of residents who don't really need to move their car.
Freshmen at UNT have to park over by Apogee Stadium on the other side of I-35.
They're not going to walk down there and drive up there.
So there's plenty of customers.
Hopefully, we will make a decision that is keeping people safe.
>> Thank you.
>> All right, thank you.
Okay, that's all the cards.
Is there anybody else who wants to speak who did not submit a card?
I'm actually doing a quick inventory, and you've all spoken.
Okay, there we have it.
And we have to discuss this.
I do want to follow up with, since I was the chairman of the Oak Gateway small area plan,
I did want to follow up on the population, the density factor.
And that area covered by the Oak Gateway has 18% of the entire population of the city of Denton.
The land area in the Oak Gateway is 2% of all of Denton, not including ETJ, but, you know,
incorporated Denton, 2% of the land, 18% of the population.
>> That's pretty dense.
>> Pretty dense, exactly.
>> I still have a question.
I hope you don't mind.
I know you had said earlier that you had done a study, and you were figuring out how many people
came and parked.
Was that just on Hickory, or did you figure out parking for other places that are close to those?
Because I've gone to restaurants down there, and I don't park on Hickory.
I'll park like a street or two over, and then I'll walk.
So was that just considered on Hickory?
>> We installed a camera.
It was there for one week.
It was running the whole time.
It was just, so it was on the northwest corner of the Fry-Hickory intersection pointed westward.
As you can imagine, that's a lot of hours of footage.
We had our consultant, they had an intern or something go through some of it, took a sample of it.
So that is exclusively Hickory Street.
We don't have good data about parking behavior in that area.
>> Okay, thank you.
>> You all want me to go first, don't you?
All right.
>> I got a question.
>> Yes.
>> From number one or number two, what's the straightest shot?
Because you've already spent a ton of money west of it coming down Hickory.
What's the straightest shot going through that intersection option?
>> I think it's option two.
>> The entire bike lane is on the south side for the rest of the segment.
>> And option two keeps parking on the north side adjacent to the businesses.
>> Well, we already voted for that once already.
Well, what happened with taking some land from UNT?
>> Yeah, we are talking to them.
We haven't really received a decision from that point, but we are looking at having some sort
of sidewalk or access easement so that we can make, that is part of the option three
that we're looking into so that we can have additional area that we can use
for pedestrians and bicycles.
>> Do we know, I'm going to play devil's advocate.
I know we even say in our own documents that we don't like option four.
And your reasons, I hadn't thought about it, make total sense,
especially when people are stopping and getting in spaces, it stops traffic.
But do we know what the traffic counts are?
So I biked at 5 p.m., about five after 5 p.m. here today.
I made sure to take the route we were discussing to get the experience
and just look at it one more time before I came.
And when I sat at that light, I hit the light, got right up to it,
and sat at it the whole time, three cars.
It was me in three cars.
So it just, and maybe it's just during certain hours of the day,
specific times when it builds up.
How much traffic are we getting on that street?
Because it doesn't seem like the primary way a lot of people are getting to campus.
But, so I'm just curious, like if we slowed down, if we just prioritized everything else
and really slowed down traffic, would it have that amount of effect on the movement
of people throughout there?
And then the other side is, is there also other possibilities about maybe this is UNT
Showcase Street and we want to slow people down as they come by campus.
I know that that exists at other college campuses where there's a street
you can kind of come by and you're not going.
Because I also think how two lanes also is one of the major factors
that makes it more dangerous for pedestrians.
It's when people are trying to go around each other, when a car is,
you can't see it as a pedestrian.
And we already have admitted we know people are crossing those streets,
sometimes drunk, that maybe just for those blocks,
maybe one lane isn't the worst option.
Maybe it is, but.
So a couple things to address your concerns.
Currently the speed limit in this segment is 20 miles an hour.
So yes, we're trying to do everything to reduce the speeds.
The traffic based on the study that we did for UNT,
it's around 9,000 vehicles a day on this particular stretch.
It's about 8,800 or something around that.
And this acts as a couplet with Oak which sends traffic out.
So these are two major arterials that we have here.
So it's maybe the time of the day that you were there,
but for the rest of the day, it's continuous flowing.
And the other feedback we did receive from the businesses
when we had the public meeting, they did not like this option.
Just because the ease of getting in and out of the parking area
and the congestion will divert people to a different location.
So they're not in favor of option four.
And I will say too, the first part of that stretch from Avenue A
all the way to, we'll say start stopping at Avenue A,
the traffic there all flows really slow.
It doesn't really open up until you get past that,
like till you pass Crook and Cross.
That's when it seems like cars then.
That's where more people are probably jaywalking and crossing and where you do.
I think the other area is actually fine as it is with traffic.
It's not, you can jump in on a bike pretty easily.
I do think there's an artificial sense of calming
because of the bad condition of the road currently.
It's in such bad shape, everyone slows down dramatically.
And when this is rebuilt, it's smooth, I think behavior will change.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Well, also I was on P&Z when we passed the 2012 bike and pedestrian plan.
My preference, my vote, I'll tell you now, as you probably know,
is for option number two, removing parking on the south side.
I watched the bike plan being vetted in 2011 and 2012.
And at that point, it obviously went through committees.
It went through P&Z.
It went through public hearings.
It was recommended by council.
So it was a long, long experience with a lot of stakeholders
who in 2012 agreed that that was the bike plan,
that we would be financing and that we would be building in this particular area.
And the other part of me is a resident.
This is my neighborhood, and I walk to work.
I walk down Fry Street from my neighborhood.
And the experience there is that yes, right now, parking on Hickory is being utilized
and really always has been utilized by students going to the south side.
You can walk into the coffee shop on Sunday.
There may be no cars there on either side.
And there could be a line for people deep at the coffee shop.
And obviously, those people on a Sunday morning have not driven there.
I spoke about density.
And again, not only is this the most dense part of Denton,
but in terms of household income, it's among the lowest.
Obviously, we're factoring students in there.
But it is in the lowest portion for family income.
I don't remember what I did with my numbers.
But also, the average age in this area is something like 89% of the population
is younger than 35.
That would not be me.
But I still ride my bike.
So I think it is really, honestly, time to dedicate the south side of West Hickory
to the bike plan as we intended to do it almost seven years ago
and make that straight shot for the cyclists that we agreed upon.
And just let the market dictate what's going to happen on Fry Street.
But I'm telling you, from my office in the auditorium building,
people are walking across the street to go to have lunch at Chipotle,
to go have coffee, to pick up some art supplies.
They're walking over there.
Nobody is driving into this area to go and have a pizza
because there's a lot of options to drive to.
And that's the plan that we promised seven years ago,
which, as I said, is vetted, vetted, vetted before I got there.
Patrice Caskey, why do you prefer option two over option one?
Because of keeping the entire bike lane on the south side.
A couple years ago, we were going through this a couple years ago,
and there we had the discussion of,
do we want to take off the parking on the north side versus the south side?
And at that point two years ago,
we agreed that the parking would be removed on the south side.
I guess I'm looking at it.
I'm misreading it.
I thought the, oh, you're saying the parking change from the, okay.
Right, well, yeah, so, and, you know, if the bike lane is on the south side,
then, you know, all the way down Hickory,
then, you know, starting up on Bonnie Bray south side,
and then, oops, let's go over to the north side,
and then back over to the south side.
Oh, I thought the lane was in the same place.
It was just the difference where the cars are parked between one and two.
It's supposed to.
Am I misunderstanding?
There's a slight shift, though.
Yeah, there's going to be a shift.
So, there you go.
Option one, bike lane is on the south side,
but it has the parking adjacent to it with that three-foot buffer.
Let's see.
Option two, it's still on the south side,
but the parking is now on the north side.
So, this option has an advantage that the parking is not next to the bike lane.
Yeah.
That's why the option two is more in line with the safety.
Because of the car doors?
The car doors.
But it also creates a true protected bike lane, too, right?
I mean, now we have an actual physical barrier between it.
You have a physical barrier of steel between those moving vehicles and the bicycles.
Three feet, to me, in this day and age,
should be pretty darn good to keep the bicycles protected from doors opening,
and that's on the passenger side as well,
which doesn't get open nearly as much as being on the other side.
Driver's side always gets opened.
Three feet ought to be pretty good,
and the cycles would have a six-foot dedicated space.
Can we put option two forward with the suggestion or recommendation
of the raised plastic things?
I don't know what they're called.
Actually, here on the...
I didn't draw your attention to it earlier, but there are those...
The lineators.
The lineators, yeah.
Did you also want the steel curving?
I think I would prefer that, yeah.
I think any of that really creates more of a clear distinction to cars.
I think it will add a bit of safety for cyclists.
And I think getting this...
I'll just say one last thing.
I think getting the street right is so good because, again,
what we're doing is we're in one of the most dense areas,
really showing cyclists and people who could be cyclists, right,
as Susie pointed out.
We're working on an infrastructure,
and so this can be... getting this area right, I think, is so important.
So I appreciate the options put forward.
And I also agree.
I think option two seems like the one that makes the most sense.
I also prefer option two.
It's, to me, the safest for cyclists.
Option three is crazy expensive.
Oh, I'm sorry, Jim.
I don't have anything to say.
I think option two...
They put so much time and effort into the... with these bicycle people.
Provide a quality product, you know?
Keep it on the south side and let them go all the way down the road.
Do we need one more vote?
Oh, I'm for option two.
I love option three if it could be multi-blocks.
I like the idea of creating a big environment,
extended environment that's predominantly focused on pedestrians
and cyclists and stuff.
But I'm also looking at the cost between option three's quarter of a million dollars
for one block.
Yeah, that's just planning level cost.
We have not gotten into design and actual serving now.
And, no, is the $83,000 figure just planning or is that...?
So that actually would be folded into, since it's just striping,
most of it will be folded into our streets project.
Okay, so we're really not raising any... having to expand?
It's not going to be that expensive of an option.
And that's the whole reason to bring this item forward,
is now we're done with the gateway plan.
The street is almost getting done.
So we need some direction into how do we move forward?
And also, as a cyclist, having ridden that street several times,
if you go to option three or something, I'm likely to stay just on the street.
And I think a lot of cyclists will do the same thing,
is I'm used to riding assertively in traffic, particularly in that area where it's a lower speed.
Put me on Woodrow?
No, I'm on the sidewalk.
But part of it is the cost.
Part of it is, like Patrice has been saying,
we've been pushing this bike plan since 2012.
And a lot of our bicycle infrastructure in this town is disconnected.
And we need to start connecting it and making it a viable transportation route.
With all the cost savings on this option,
maybe we could even paint that mean green bike lane right along that part of it.
There you go.
Does anybody want to make a motion for an option
that the Traffic Safety Commission would recommend to City Council?
I'll make the motion that we approve option two.
I'll second that.
Okay.
All right, any discussion?
All right, we take a vote.
Everyone in favor of recommending option two to City Council, say aye.
Aye.
Opposed?
That's unanimous.
Okay, thank you.
That brings us to item 1C, which is TSC 19-010, which is to receive a report,
hold a discussion, and make recommendation to City Council for restricting on-street parking
along the north side of Underwood Street between Avenue B and McCormick Street.
Pretend.
Hi, this is in the same area that we started, and knowing that parking is a real concern,
we're also talking about two things, the width of the street in this particular area.
This is the segment of Underwood between McCormick and Avenue B that we're focusing on.
There are a couple things that happened recently when TechStop moved in.
This connection of Underwood that used to connect to the Furniture Road was removed.
So as you can see, this is a dead-end area.
This portion between Avenue B and the dead end is already no parking in this particular area.
Currently, the street is 26 feet wide, which means if cars are parked on both sides,
it does not have the required fire lane 20 feet on either side.
So it becomes an extremely narrow segment for any emergency vehicles to pass through.
The way the fire code is written, typically, if it is they require a 20-foot clear segment,
and then they allocate 6 feet parking.
So if there is a street segment that's 26 feet wide,
typically parking should be restricted at a minimum on one side.
If the street is 32 or more feet wide, then you can allow parking on both sides.
This is a perfect space that does not provide for access.
The other thing that's happening is this fire station is currently
being remodeled, meaning they're reconstructing accesses.
They're providing access on Underwood.
Some of this configuration here is changing.
McCormick will not go through.
It'll be shut down.
So this area is taken over by the fire station.
Fire trucks will be in and out of this area, meaning they'll use some of this
to connect north, and they'll have access to this area.
So part of the fire station being remodeled, as well as a concern from
this particular resident/citizen that has business here.
And Mr. Noll can talk to that.
I think he has a card signed up.
But we are bringing this item forward just for those two reasons, emergency access as well as
safety concerns and even concerns from this business that their access getting through
in between this area is so restricted, now it doesn't connect to the furniture road.
And there's only one way in and out for this particular parking lot,
because they have shut down access.
It used to be used for a cut through between the parking lot.
So they've shut this down.
So to access this part, there's only one way in and out.
So there are two things happening.
The emergency vehicle access as well as access to the business
is getting blocked because of parking on either side.
And also, I believe Mr. Noll has been trying to gather support from all these residents.
He was successful a couple years ago to get signed letters.
He still has a couple of them already signed.
They have same concerns, safety concerns, getting in and out.
Can't really see around the corner.
It's hard to back out.
So for all these different reasons, staff is recommending that we restrict parking on
the north side.
There are several driveways in between.
And then just given that the spacing and the fire or the emergency vehicle access,
which do not exist in this area, staff is recommending that we restrict parking on the north side.
Any questions?
What's the width of Avenue B?
I think Avenue B, I don't know.
It seems to be a slightly wider street, but people are not parking on the curb.
So if you can see, I think they're parking in the grass area.
They're parking outside of the curb area.
So the actual curb to curb is probably within the same 26 feet, around the same size.
But since they have extra space here, the actual width for people to go through exists for a--
But at this time, I think we're just focusing on underwood.
It's just for comparison.
Yes, all these streets are really narrow.
I think Margie is the same way.
Fannin is the same way.
They're narrow streets.
I believe long-term, we have to think of what our plan is for this area, especially given the
narrow streets and think about long-term solution as to do we start restricting parking on one side
or what do we do as far as parking, especially during the daytime when the university is functional.
Do we restrict it in the daytime?
We don't have a big picture solution at this point.
But given that this fire station is going in, I think this area becomes a key concern on underwood.
Yes?
They have to have it because the fire trucks have to make the turn.
Correct.
Yes, the fire trucks have to make a turn.
So what we're started working on is at the intersections, we're trying to enforce it better
and clear it up at the intersection at a minimum so that the fire trucks can turn.
But in between the intersections, if there is little space and they don't really have to deploy
their equipment, then they can, you know, live by or pass by those narrow areas.
Any questions?
Can you clarify for me the entrance to the business on the corner over here?
Yes.
I couldn't exactly tell where you were saying they're entering that parking lot from.
So there is-- this parking area was connected.
So what is happening is-- if you go there, I don't think I would be able to-- there we go.
So this-- right now, they're blocking it off with the-- with this car part.
But what was happening is people would enter this drive aisle and drive around to connect to--
I believe it's Collier Street.
So what they're doing is coming up here and they see, oh, it's-- does not get to
the furniture road, then they use the parking area to get to Collier and then to the furniture road.
So that's-- that was happening and that's why they had to put a car there or shut it down.
Specifically, where's the entrance into that parking lot?
This one?
I think you can see it once you get down here.
That's-- that's the entrance right here and then you see these are parking spaces.
And what are they planning on doing with the rest of the street?
On Underwood?
Mm-hmm. Or on this street here?
This area?
Going towards 35.
I do not know what this corner piece is at this time of the week.
Underwood does not go to the service road anymore, right?
So--
No, it does not.
So it'll be--
Closed off. So are they just going to leave it?
Just, I mean, can-- I'm asking because if it's pretty simple to remove the north side of the
parking on Underwood, it might be potential to put some parking down there if they're
not doing anything with it. I mean--
Yeah, I don't-- I'm not sure if the city owns-- if it's not owned by the city, it's not public parking,
which means we don't know if a private developer or whoever owns the land is willing to do that, so.
Okay.
Thanks.
Okay. Any other questions? I think Mr. Noll's here if you--
Yes, should we hear from Mr. Noll?
Okay. If you would, please, go to the podium, state your name and your address.
Oh, I need you to-- they make me tell you to speak into the mic. Yeah.
Talk into the mic.
Ken Noll, 26 Royal Oaks, Denton, Texas.
And I'm with pre-tem.
I'm for everything he's for.
If any of you had some of those other questions, I might be able to re-answer.
I've been working on this for almost two years, and I want to really thank this individual right
here for taking the time to talk to me. Okay. But anyway, the key problem is--
How do you-- oh, you're looking at it here.
Is just the safety, and I'm a chiropractor. I have a lot of senior patients. It was ideal,
of course, when Underwood Street was open, they could just come around the corner and pull in.
When TechStat did it, they looked at several different-- they talked about putting the
entrance over there off of Avenue B. They talked about opening this back up, but then we checked
with the city, and there was quite a few accidents with people cutting through, hitting parked cars,
hitting each other, and so on, back over to Collier, and they asked us to close that off.
So it's been that way since, and so they decided just to leave the entrance where it is.
This piece of street here is the part that goes into, so they can get in the parking lot.
Avenue B is just as severe as Underwood. I don't know, Preetem, do you have any--
is anybody-- can we hook this up anyway to the--
I doubt we can. We don't have the wires now.
Yeah, we have an interesting video you might find humorous of an individual walking past,
and we were videotaping the other day the congestion and the cars there on the street.
But the key thing again, of course, and also too from the fire station, they told me unanimously
they were having a meeting there when I stopped by there again a few days ago, that they would
gladly send a letter too, that they would really appreciate if that could be taken care of with the
parking. Of course, we would have liked to have seen it, no parking on both sides of the street,
but I understand that's not possible, and Preetem pointed out to me the reasons it would be best to
have the north side, which is-- and they do park around the corner here, they park around the corner
where the stop sign is there, and Avenue B is just as severe when the parking is even with the dirt
on the side where they mostly park. And I walk this at least twice a week, maybe three times a week,
pick up trash and so on, try and keep it as decent as I can coming in there, because
like he presented or explained, it is pretty much the main entrance now into my business rather than
where it used to be over here. Quite a few Medicare patients, and quite honestly we lost a lot of them,
and they just say, "Hey doc, we love you and been coming for 20 years or whatever, but
we just can't drive up down this street. People have lost me." I've had a couple hit someone's car,
and so of course they're, you know, they don't want to come back. I do have letters here that
glad for you to see from these two properties. I had them from the whole block here before,
including the fire station, but I haven't been able to get ahold of the owner of this piece yet.
These two live there. There's a husband, wife here, and a woman that's in and out quite a bit,
but I do have letters of support for it and their frustration with it also trying to get in and out
and things like this. But it's mainly-- and it starts at about 6 30. We open at 7, so I'm there
at a quarter till 7, and it starts about 6 30 with the parking along there. It's the construction
workers on that new building on Eagle Drive, and then as the students come they of course fill it in,
and there's nothing left, and the police come through every, you know, a couple three times
a month maybe and give tickets and things like that, so then that'll deter it for a while.
Of course we have to-- we actually have a tow company. We have signs there,
which we also have that problem. They just come and park in our parking lot.
Any other questions? I perked anything that can be answered or am I done?
I appreciate you considering it very much. I've been through the whole process and got the
letters and so on and so on, took them, but Preetem's got me the farthest so far, so I like him a lot.
We like him, too. Anybody? We like him, too. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Thank you. As for biking, which was a big topic tonight, of course I'll be honest. I don't see a
lot of bikes that go down that street. That's a hard one. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much,
all of you, for your time. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Any discussion? Where are we falling on this?
It seems kind of bad to me. I mean, it's about safety. It's about getting the fire trucks through
there. And I think we're going to come back and revisit all these other streets.
I'll make a motion. Okay. Make a motion to accept the recommendation. Second. Okay. We have a motion
to accept the recommendation. We have a second. Everyone in favor say aye. Aye. Everyone opposed?
All right. There we have it. Your parking is gone. Okay. Thank you. Yes.
Thank you. And that brings us to agenda item 1D, TSC 19-011, which is to receive a report,
hold a discussion, and make a recommendation to City Council for establishing a speed limit
along US 377 from FM 1830 to I-35E. So 377 is that section of Fort Worth Drive.
We're going to talk about this portion from 35E all the way down to where the construction
limits are. I think it ends at James Street in 1830 coming in. So currently this segment of 377
between 35 and 1830 is under construction. They began construction early this year,
I think first week of January is when they kicked it out. Currently they're working on the utilities
that are outside the right-of-way so there are no impacts to the lanes, but they will be soon
start working closer to the lane, closer to the traffic. Currently the speed limit south of,
I want to say south of this particular point right after 35E, it gets to a point where it becomes 50
and 55 miles an hour as you go south. What was requested, text out requested, that they will be,
it is under construction, they will be working really close to the lanes and the vehicles that
will be traveling, and secondly they are thinking of putting in construction barriers that are not
the high barriers that you see on the freeways, but a lower version of it. I'm not sure if you've
noticed them, they were on 2181 south of Geyer when they used it in that particular area. So
they're trying to use lower type of barrier, they wanted to find out what's the best way to
make it safer for everyone, and they requested that the city during construction for the next
two years lower the speed limit to 45 miles an hour, which then provides them an option to
work closer to the vehicles, but have the smaller lower barriers so that
cars are not traveling that fast. If cars are traveling over 45 miles they can't really install
that for safety, they have to install the bigger ones. So that was a request that was made.
Typically once a road is widened and completed as in the case of 2499, they go back and do a
speed study again. They're going to do that after the construction is completed for this segment of
377, and once that happens they'll come back and we'll come back here in front of the committee to
change the speed limit, but for now we just want to make sure that we're safe and especially in
the construction zone where there are too many things going on, distractions as well as workers
too close to these vehicles. We as staff feel and recommend that the speed limit should be
lowered to 45 miles an hour. That's the recommendation. Let me know if you have any questions.
It does pick up speed when people go past the railroad track, it does start picking up the
speed. So past 1830 where it connects it'll still remain the same speed limit because it won't be
under the construction area. Right about here is where the construction starts. I think it starts
just a few hundred feet south of the country globe road connection and it's going to be widened to a
six lane facility. You said it was 50 or 55 currently? Currently it's 50 at one segment and
then 55 the next. I think it's when you go closer to 1830 it gets to a 55 I think.
Did you say six lanes? Yeah. Three in each direction? No total, three lanes each direction.
Yeah this is a bigger segment.
I already have trouble like if I'm on if I go to the stuff on one side sometimes it's hard for me
to get back over. So you know I think people go go pretty fast over there. Yeah I think some of
these streets that come into the town like 2181, 377, 2499 they're all getting upgraded at the same
time. So these are all large FM roads, state highways. I imagine my surprise that you're
thinking about lowering a speed limit. It is currently a two lane so I do want to point out
it has it does have wider shoulders but people use it for the wrong reasons. They
swerve around to just pass people which shouldn't be and that those wide wider shoulders are going
to be taken out as part of the construction. That's where the barriers will be placed
so there wouldn't be enough room to swerve around. Any questions?
Okay. Anybody have a recommendation?
I recommend we go with a recommendation. Okay we have a motion and a second to accept staff's
recommendation to lower speed limits in this area. Everyone in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay perfect.
And that brings us to item 1E TSC 19-012 which is to hold a report, receive a report, hold a
discussion and make a recommendation to City Council for establishing a speed limit along
Cowling Road from Rector Road to Deer Run Drive. So I'm trying to see if I can find the city
limits for this particular one. This is the street I'm talking about it is Cowling Road starting at
Rector and there is a small portion that's within the city limits. Let's see where Deer Run is.
Okay right there. So
from Deer Run all the way to Rector this is the only piece of Cowling Road within the city.
North and south of it is county areas and if you see it's a fairly rural road that then connects
and connects to Fifth Street and in this particular in the Sanger area but if you
go south it's fairly rural. There is not access points or any driveways or anything going to any
of these lands until you get really close on this side and once you go north I think the current
speed limit is 40 miles an hour within the county area. South of Rector it's the same it's 40 miles
an hour. Since there is no posted speed limit within our city limits currently it is considered
as a prima facie which means 30 miles an hour which is not posted so when you don't post
speed limits it's typically considered 30 miles an hour and that's what we're enforcing.
So what is happening is it's not city PD it's more of the county and DPD enforcing some of
these rural sections and the way they enforce it since there's nothing posted in the city limits
then they hold you to 30 miles an hour so we've been receiving many complaints from residents
that use this on a daily basis that this segment is 40 they travel 40 all of a sudden there is no
warning and you enter the city limits and then you once you leave it's back to 40 miles an hour so
we're trying to you know straighten out some inconsistency make it consistent
not create speed traps for citizens so on this one we're trying to we're recommending to increase
the speed limit to 40 miles an hour so you're going to take some revenue away
it's mostly county but yes that's tricksy yeah it is very tricky
that's the only situation in the city is that the only situation like this uh that we know of yes
because there there are so many streets that go weave in and out especially on the fringe that
we're not really clear does it lie in the city it's outside the city it's in the etj who is
really controlling it so um we are going to embark on a full speed survey study for uh majority of
our major streets and highways and arterials throughout the city and as part of that we'll
clean up any fringe streets that we have as part of that study it doesn't look like there's anything
to run into is there it looks like it's just like farmland or it it is i mean it's there's not any
streams even google doesn't go in there it's not like if somebody could like veer off and
fall into anything no it's pretty straightforward so right after this point it turned into 30 mile an
hour yeah there's nothing and the width of the lane is consistent yes so the width is consistent
this pavement is consistent throughout it's a fairly rural section of the roadway so
it would be fun to see the map with the city limits and the etj yeah let me see if i can pull
that up
so
this is sanger etj
okay let's etj oh extra territorial jurisdiction
yeah i don't almost it doesn't on this map it doesn't even show the street it's old
yeah it's not
this one
off the button
no i don't think this map really tells you
okay so it does give a little to the south at least
is there a bridge over water over there is there a creek over there
there is a creek i think is it a one lane bridge or is it a two lane bridge it's a two lane bridge
okay
well that was a request mainly for my own amusements though so it would have worked friday
oh wow so i think so i think we're really talking about this piece that's
i think we're really talking about this piece that goes through the city
okay that's really close to the freeway but this is the cowling road that comes in
and there's a really small section that goes through the city it's not the whole segment but
that's where people are getting clipped i didn't i wouldn't say that yeah so this is an area where
the city got it it's within city limits
so county is enforcing it more dpd enforces more than we do
well i'd say let's uh i make a motion that we have one less speed trap second
okay we have a motion we have a second to increase that the speed limit and that stretch
to be consistent with the stretch to the north and to the south everyone in favor aye
aye and opposed that is nobody excellent moving forward okay that brings us to item 1f
tsc 19-013 which is our matrix all right so we are trying to knock some of these out um
more so on the i think the hickory street i'll i'll just quickly go over this i think
i had said seven o'clock when the roofers can start back so it might start soon but
quickly going to that hickory uh the wheelchair app we're looking into that um as part of our
hickory street project so um there there is a driveway that is next to it we might have
to look it into making it ad compliant for the cross slope so that's something that's
looked into we don't have a design or we don't have any current funding but we're we're definitely
it'll be part of our hickory street project station motors that's a little bit more tricky
i think that whole area is um text dot but good news is text dot has a project up and down
locust i think they're going to start with locust and then move to elm that they're going to fix
sidewalks all up and down um elm and locust but the first one is locust and they're going to make
it ad compliant they're going to have ramps at every crossing that goes parallel to the street
and they're going to make sure that all their sidewalks are ad compliant meaning there are no
cross slope issues or no cracking falling and that big project we just recently had a meeting with
text dot they are working on the design planning design level but i think they intend to spend the
funds this year to get the street sidewalks completed yeah it was we weren't expecting that
but that's a good very good thing two quick questions on that do we know aren't we getting
the troll that back at some point is that in the long term that is a yes the locust and elm term
back um that is not a whole lot long term but it's about two three years out because if we need to
get our utilities designed and constructed text dot needs to repave uh the entire segment we're
talking from eagle all the way to university and that's not going to happen in the next year so
it's probably going to take a good two years to get there and after that once it's completely
reconstructed then we can take over the ownership so then my only other question there is have we
been able to have any um feedback give them any feedback on for example what the sidewalks look
like like for me for example it'd be great like if there's a buffer with like you know trees or
something between the sidewalk and that road is there any discussion around that there is a
schematic level i can find the maps for you but um we don't have the plans it's text on consultant
and text art is running that project so we can definitely request maps and we can bring it forward
yeah it'll be yeah they're they're trying to see within their existing right of way really old
area some of them they don't even know if they have right of way so they they're trying to fit
in uh a sidewalk that is consistent and goes across but there might be some places that they'll
have to really work with the property owners to make it 88 compliant but definitely i guess long
term the bigger reason i ask that is we wouldn't want them to do something we don't like and then
have to redo it ourselves and take yes so agreed um so we talked about the bike lanes on hickory at
length today all right and then yes this uh pd uh reports or collision we are asking the questions
and we started meeting pd regularly um it is a lot of data to mine as far as understanding
okay um how many involved pedestrians and what can we do um what type of accidents so we're
currently uh sort of short staff to do the data mining that is really needed to get these reports
to a point where you know it's more um presentable digestible in form of numbers and quick figures
and simple area maps that show you these are the top locations and these are the number one issues
and this is how we can fix it um that's why it's taking a little bit longer but we intend to bring
this back in april with the report that has at least a year full of collision data the top 10
locations and what are the issues what can we do what can we look into yeah it just seems to me
that we should be able to do something because we have a crime map yes i can go and see what was
happening on my street or something you know and i think we should be able to have at least that
type of viewpoint yes and i i do agree to that end we also started working with gis to put some gis
maps together for the same reason where we want to put out more traffic information as far as
traffic counts our signal location pedestrian crossings all the information related information
needs to be interactive where people can see it we're slowly getting there we were one person
department now we have some more people still we're making an effort to create some of these
smaller item as projects and get them done in the next month few months uh
yes new street is something that we will be bringing back uh next month i think uh there were
the item was presented to the tiff board there were some um concepts that they wanted to look
further they wanted to look at other alternatives so uh our project manager is currently working
with consultant to create more alternatives and look into the options but we'll bring that item
also um next month right and there was also an online survey right correct we did has that closed
yet it was closed yes it was for a week or week and a half i think it was closed yes
and then yes we're looking for design and funding for this uh ad ramp on elm across the state it
might be part of the um textile project once they go in since it's textile right away
any other more items yes sir you dropped me from the list oh we didn't want to do that i'm hurt
where's my white stripe on welsh an eagle
that needs to be here and let's get that on um sorry about that
i won't put that
okay does anybody else have anything to add to the matrix i had if i could go back one to the
locust so how far down does that go does that go all the way up to the loop are they looking to add
sidewalks all the way out like i forgot what so the limits are between eagle and university drive 380
okay okay all right those are the limits and those limits that they intend to turn back
at a sooner rather than later so in the next three years they'll be turning it back but
text dot has shown has wanted us to take over all the way to where it goes to 35 in the north side
so us 77 all the way to curbs and goes north they have asked us to see if the city can take that
portion as well and the portion of dallas drive on the south all the way to 35e do we want those
parts we're we're thinking about it what are the pros and cons and what condition is it in
and how do we want to long term because what has happened that that used to be the primary highway
that went through the city and now it's no longer a highway it's more of a city street that goes
through our downtown area so we're better off having it that's we're looking into the added
sections but right now we're pretty sure that between eagle and university drive that's the
portion that will be coming back to us good to know i just live on that side of town and i know
that there's sometimes people outside north branch library um there's if you go far enough down
there's not sidewalks so i've seen people walk along the highway before that stretch so i was
curious how far it went just in case if they were going to put in oh that would be nice okay so i'm
asking do you have one item i'm not sure this isn't this may not be a matrix item this may be
something else but i was wondering if it was possible to get a report on these two sections
i brought them up the last couple i think meetings and i've been kind of in continual
conversations with citizens including suzy over here and keely briggs and jord hudspeth about
what we can do in the the two areas i'm concerned about are carol between mulberry and oak and bell
between mulberry and mckinney essentially i see those as turning into increasingly urban areas
you know changes in the amount of housing is creating uh you know more walkers and cyclists
sorry carol between mulberry and oak and these are just my the areas i from being in you know
um pedestrian and cyclists in that area the areas that i i think require but i could be it could be
more than that or less those would be good discussions and then bell between mulberry and
mckinney okay so i see those areas as urbanizing in different ways and so an example would be
armadillo opening um which is the coffee shop in the morning and the and the place and you know my
we live in h squared where pizza snob is and my wife walked out mulberry the other day and we just
right when she got there she's like i felt like my life was in danger the entire walk and we're
talking like four blocks now i know some of that is already being addressed a little bit potentially
with the muse plan and so part of that will hopefully get done but um bell's scary you know
and if you come off mulberry like you can walk to those intersections but most people don't do it
just because they're out of the way and those intersections don't feel safe either so like i
think there's a if they like felt like they were really great intersections i think people would
consider but a lot of people are just crossing in those cars if you go go stand there sometime
right if you stand at armadillo they come flying around the corner and you see them and it's not
so i think there's just potential there and then i've brought up the stuff on carol so my my request
is is would it be possible for us to put together some kind of report about what kind of options we
have on arterials for making them safer and just so we can look at options and start considering them
from small from short term to long term so you're talking about uh i'm trying to understand this
you're talking about walking along arterials or you talk about crossing arterials i'd say both
ways to just make the whole street now the cross is an important part of that for sure
but also um you know and i know some of the things again would be long term like the sidewalks that
where you're walking you know inches from cars going 35 40 miles per hour is obviously a problem
but in some spots that's going to take a longer term planning but i'm also interested in short term
you know slow uh you know measures to slow cars i think there's a variety of options out there
and and when i've talked to gerard and keely they've encouraged me to try to see if we can
get some kind of report and discussion going um because i don't know all the answers but i
certainly just would like to learn more and figure out what is possible in those two areas
yeah and i have to second that you know um what is now the twice as nice and what's the coffee shop
zero yeah and zero coffee that used to be um a garden center it was a feed uh feed and seed
sales spot which of course would have yeah heart pools was there so it used to be you know track
heavy truck traffic right there but now we have apartments just you know a block away from that
so as we increase again residential density in that downtown area what we are accustomed to
like if you've lived in denton 10 20 or 30 and longer um what was 40 years ago is no longer
but we really kind of built our infrastructure as though that was going to continue that we were
always going to have a seed company on the corner of mckinney and bell but i think that's something
that we really really have to start you know recognizing that the more beating hearts we put
in an area the more we have to slow down traffic the more we have to increase bike infrastructure
make pedestrians feel safer because all those beating hearts can't get into an internal
combustion engine car so i think it's the best with easy the simplest way i put it is hickory is
is going to define denton's core you know if we can make hickory a great street i mean because
that cuts right through everything if we can make hickory it gets you right to our huge investment
we've made in dcta right like that's a massive investment and i don't think we're getting enough
out of it right now um and i think part of that is is walkability even though it's only a block
away the the psychological and physical barrier bell it's just i think more people it's off their
radar so i think as we continue to think about that if we can make hickory a great urban street
i think we can change denton and make it the you know premier smaller town and this whole you know
dfw metroplex i think we already are there in some ways but i think we can continue that's that's our
strength as a city in my opinion it's not razor ranch and other areas that you could have anywhere
you could build those areas anywhere what we have on hey along hickory is a university s square and
it's really unique so i'm just i'm excited about it i love what's there but i think it can turn into
something really incredible so i think part of the answer is our master thoroughfare plan we're
gonna start defining how our cross sections are gonna play out and some of the discussion in that
will be our are these streets that used to be arterials can can they still continue being that
but at the same time have some other characteristics as far as um you know the required pedestrian
improvements can there be other options to calm traffic down in between uh not with signals but
something else so we're it could be a starting point where we start talking about the
complete street segments for some of these arterials would that also include the locust
that comes in yes elman locust will definitely be one of our top ones because we're currently
working on several drainage projects that will lift that whole area out of the strong water or
floodplain and once that happens the whole land will be redeveloped pretty soon of short notice
so we need to be prepared for what are what is our next step how do we put infrastructure on
locust and elm especially between eagle and the square at this point well i guess they'd also just
think about like so when you get when you go to the loop you can get to the loop because i live on
that side of town you can get there through locust you can go down sherman and there's houses being
built on the other side of the loop now so as a bicyclist i think to myself if anybody lived over
there how are they how would they get into town but they would have to use one of the you know
i wouldn't i would not get on the loop on my bike i would not do that sherman i've done it
but i mean how are you i just don't see that anybody out there is going to be able to get
into town from there well you do what one of my friends does it lives in south ridge and he
bicycles to u and t and he takes t's lee he has to take t's lee oh my gosh wow okay
that's rough i'm not sure there are many parts of t's lee i would also not get on on my bike
he's in that two percent yes
does anybody have anything else that you want to add to pre-tem's matrix
i'm wondering they're gone they're tired of us i'm wondering it's been a couple
years or at least a year and a half since we have had a joint traffic safety mobility committee
meeting um i don't know do we have things that we would like to talk about with the commission
and the mobility committee did you know we can start thinking in that direction we can say that
we're going to bring it back next month but the next two to three months we can definitely have
a joint meeting i mean if there's if there are things that you think we should kind of put our
heads together um you know we've done that before we'll definitely look into that okay
okay if you have nothing else motion to adjourn hi jim's ready to go and we have a second so it is
7 19 and we'll see you next week or next next month next month i'm so excited i want to see
y'all next week next week