welcome everybody it's six o'clock and I would like to call the meeting to order
and we have a couple of what we have three agenda items tonight the first is
to consider approval of the minutes for the June 1st 20 23rd meeting motion to
approve do we have a second did anyone see that was emailed out on Monday I
believe so we have a motion and a second all those in favor I the motion was made
by in seconded by Peggy caps all those in favor raise your hand and say aye all
those opposed second item of business receive a report and hold a discussion
regarding the scope and processes relating to the items to be addressed
and discussed during the meetings of the special citizens bond advisory committee
and do I have control this thing I just ended it so you guys receive this from
me again as a result of the direction from last week we obviously have a
different direction than the process in place as a result our professional
facilitator will not be continuing to join these meetings so it's it's up to
us to continue this process moving forward so what we wanted to do is paint
out a way based on the feedback that we've been getting to date of how to do
that so to start off with we'll go this pretty quickly so hopefully you guys
have reviewed this presentation by city staff the only change here is that
moving forward we've asked for additional specifics relating to project
recommendation including the context of the proposal what is being proposed and
its estimated cost it seems like there's a lot of questions around those each
time those presentations were having and the staff has agreed to present those
you'll see those starting tonight secondly moving on the committee Q&A
we want to preserve the greatness that happened last week you guys said loud
and clear from vote of 20 to 11 I think that you wanted to have Q&A fully
unfettered unvetted unmitigated by table talk conversations that are voted to the
top we're gonna continue doing that at a time at the discretion of me depending
on the time we have that evening or the particular topic as it seems like we
need more time to camp on it moving on to the last thing you see there and I'll
move back up to the other two we wanted to augment that Q&A time a lot of folks
were saying in addition to questions of the city staff sometimes we just have
comments we want to make or maybe you've got some personal or professional
expertise you want to bring to the table and you want to share that a time for
committee deliberation if you will around these because at the end of the
day that's what we have to do to be able to get on the same page and be able to
forward a solid recommendation to the City Council that we think can pass the
muster of the entire city when this ultimately goes to a vote so what we
were proposing is that in addition to the Q&A we'll restrict the Q&A to Q&A
while we have our staff presenter up here so that we can make sure that we
have a time just for questions for them but then once we've exhausted those
questions we want to move on for a time for us as a committee to deliberate this
is where maybe you've got an additional brainstorm maybe you've got an
additional comment again this will be at my discretion from a time perspective
to keep us moving forward based on the chatter and what you guys feel like you
want to do we want to give us as much time to be able to dive in as possible
but that's an augmentation from last week's approach I think meant to kind of
bolster our substantive discussion around these topics small group time I
think some of the concerns and you guys can tell me during this discussion that
we'll have on this is that part of the concern with small group time was the
feel that the questions that were addressed in a large group setting had
to be vetted and filtered through that small group time I get that that's no
longer the case given the way we're doing the Q&A time in the open
discussion time but there has been some feedback given to me at the end of last
week as well as throughout the week as we've been sending out these updates
that there is value to being able to listen to what staff has to say and then
have a time at least initially to reflect with a smaller group and to be
able to throw out some brainstorms maybe some questions maybe just get their
creative juices churning because at the end of the day we don't want just the
five or six people who have the time to speak or ask questions during that large
group time to be able to chime in we want to take advantage of time to be
able to dig in in smaller formats where folks who maybe aren't as comfortable
sharing in a larger format or maybe just need that processing time to get primed
up ahead of the larger time have that opportunity that's the spirit behind the
small group time that's it nothing about that is filtering the questions through
so that's the idea there is to give us the time to really reflect with a
smaller group and then we'll move on to the open discussion we also are
preserving the idea of written Q&A so that as you have questions that maybe
don't have time to be addressed or maybe it's not you don't think it's
appropriate for the whole group but you want to make sure it gets on record we
want to preserve that now without the professional facilitator helping to
organize things realize if you heard the original presentation around why we did
that it was in part to facilitate the process but also in part to really help
with some needed staff time to get some help with some of this some of that work
is no longer there with somebody to help out with it so we want to at least
alleviate that by having an electronic option where you can submit those
questions you should see at your table Susie can you hold it up it's a half
sheet of paper with a QR code using your phone you can scan it it can open up a
link where it's a way that you can put in your comment and it just cuts down on
filling out a sticky note and then somebody I was emailing folks last week
after this meeting they were up past midnight transcribing those for us so
they could start getting those out to the city staff so helps make things a
little bit more efficient so if you're able to utilize that technology please
do if not we still have sticky notes at the table we're welcome to entertain
that but try to get as many of those electronically if possible moving on I
don't know if I have control or not I do then finally as we move forward again at
the end of the day we need to come together from a consensus point of view
towards the whole committee and figure out what we are moving forward as a
group in recommending the City Council we could either wait till the end in the
last meeting to figure out where we're at as a group or we can start taking what
I'm calling temperature gauges along the way each week not as an official vote
just as some sort of sense of where are we as a committee on these particular
topics so the recommendation is again utilizing another technological approach
to your phone a simple survey based on each project where we can give just our
point-in-time feeling about that particular project based on the
presentation the questions and the conversations and it's going to give us
five options very simple I'm in full support I love it I think it should be
part of the bond package again this isn't binding this is just a sense of
where are we at as a committee or currently I'm mostly supportive maybe I've
got some additional questions three I'm unsure I might have some additional
questions or I need some more information I'm not sure whether or not to
include it the fourth option is I have reservations so you see it's a
gradation a spectrum to get a sense of where we're at and then five currently I
do not support no way no how no way in hell am I recommending this project for
inclusion again none of this is binding but we will take this poll this is the
recommendation and reveal it to the entire folks you guys see what the
results are in the aggregate anonymizing it so that you're not seeing specific
people's votes so that we can have a sense on where we at the city staff can
have a sense even the City Council who can see this because it's publicly
available to see where we're at as a committee is moving forward why is that
important because we might think as maybe you're passionate about a
particular project and then you see after this temperature gauge that hey
that's going south so either I need to get off that or maybe I need to amp up
my ability to convince more of my fellow committee members it also helps from the
city staff's perspective if we see a lot particularly what's going to be really
illuminating if we see a lot in that 3 camp around a particular project it means
that we need some more information and we need to dig into that more so it
gives the staff the opportunity and us as we're looking at the agenda week to
week to say we need to camp out on that a little bit more because we know we
don't have consensus yet on that but we could one way or the other if we just
had some more discussion on it so that's the idea of that again not binding on us
at all but getting a sense of where we are from week to week so before I dig in
I'm gonna actually ask Susie to help dig into the process for how we actually
come to a decision in the last couple of weeks well we'll talk about that process
in a second I want to pause to see what's your questions and what your
comments are to this proposed process moving forward so open the floor for
anyone Susie if you wouldn't mind grabbing a mic grab any of those
questions or comments and I see one in the back with Kim beggars back there
so I'm assuming will retroactively grade the ones that we've already heard right
I think that was the goal is that what we're gonna do so the idea would be at
the end of each time moving forward do all the ones that you did that week this
time we're gonna have a little bit more because we saw some last week so we'll
have to spend a little bit more time great question mr. Crouch up here this
is more just clarification on the second page there one of the things that you
said was if you see that your project that you're in favor of might be going
south you've got to get more support I think that that one of the things that
was in our materials that we received from the parking lot questions was you
can't go start lobbying throughout the committee outside of this room am I
correct that's great thanks for that we are as a city committee public committee
that's been appointed by the City Council subject to the Texas open
meetings act like any other committee would be so and I think we'll ask for
any further follow-up that people need to understand that but things like
starting to call up individuals and try and get a quorum of the room on your
page on something is is technically in violation of that so the idea would be
that when I say that it's in the context of these meetings to be able to know how
you can maneuver or give better voice to your perspective or whatnot so it's a
good call out Tim thank you
actually a question referring on what he's saying I think it's a good idea if
something is going south like you say because I think if there's discussion
on that then it'll help us understand better for me that I have no experience
on anything like this when something is not working out well or something is
working really well and my vote is not there it's kind of good for a
clarification for that so I like the system
this is what Kim asked about going backwards I'm not sure we have all the
financial information that we may need related to the projects that have already
been discussed so then my rec that's a great point so if we didn't have that
earlier say what we're augmenting with the presentation of city staff in those
prior I would say you ought to put number of three and then utilize the
parking lot or another opportunity to make sure you're asking those questions
so we can get those clarified yeah this is great discussion I mean I guess what
we're looking for I don't want to spend all night long talking about process I'm
gonna move forward and moving this thing on am I judging by the lack of strong
opinion one way or the other that people are by and large okay with moving
forward with this approach yes miss a worth yes I like to address a couple of
things that have been mentioned here one is that we are not prohibited from
talking to each other outside of this meeting we are only prohibited from
talking in a quorum or in a walking quorum but we are not prohibited from
talking to each other that is not a total violation every other committee
I've ever been on we have received a list of everyone on the committee and
now we don't get one of those and I know why we don't get one of those and we
were given a sheet about people that want to retract their information and
not make it available but we certainly can talk to each other outside of this
we just can't do it in a quorum and or in a walking quorum and this usually a
quorum is fifty percent plus one but for some reason this particular body has a
quorum in the ordinance of 15 and why 15 was chosen I don't know I have some
problems with the table time because we everything that I've heard has been the
comments last week people that I've seen on the street we've talked to have
said gee that was really great once we could just open up and we could ask
questions of staff because staff is who has the answers they're the only ones in
here that really have the answers to our questions and if we have that time
limited we only have two hours a meeting and if our time is limited to where we
are talking to each other instead of asking questions of staff then that's
just that much less time that we can get our answers it just felt so good and
free and open at that last meeting when we could just open up and ask questions
and we've got the opportunity for written questions I also have a problem
with the last item on the the committee discussion I'm all for the discussion
but it says comments will be restricted to topics of the presentation well there
are there are other things ancillary to the bond election that are completely
totally bond election related but they are not in a box just the animal shelter
just the library just the building just the presentation that we should certainly
be free to talk about totally as a chair I'll give you discretion to be able to
do that so I'll we'll be able to make sure you have the right to ask the
questions that we think we just want to make sure somebody starts talking about
Sesame Street or something else that we stay focused on what the task at hand is
yeah that we're not going to talk about like national politics or something but
but if it's bond election related we should be able to talk about it agree so to
that end I would like to put a motion on the floor I move the committee adopted
another standing rule that all future meetings include only staff presentations
open Q&A and open discussion by the committee as a whole moderated by the
chair discussion shall not be restricted in topics to be discussed as long as
they are within the general realm of this bond election and there's a second
from Dave Chuck the only things that can be talked about in the meetings are
things that are posted on the agenda so I if you can clarify if that's what your
motion means or not because it's it's not anything goes it's what's on the
agenda and related to what's on the agenda that may involve related things
but it needs to be within the realm of as it's posted on the agenda are you
interested in amending your motion at all well I think I think from what she
said the issue if it if if it has to be posted if it's a posting issue then the
posting needs to include a broader scope for the time of discussion got it okay
so we have a motion we have a second is there further discussion or comments
Jesse Davis
okay here the motion again yeah sure could you please restate your motion
committee adopt a standing rule that all future meetings include only staff
presentations open Q&A and open discussion by the committee as a whole
moderated by the chair discussion shall not be restricted in topics to be
discussed as long as they are within the general realm of this bond election
I ask a clarifying question right does that does your motion include when you
say that the meetings will only consist of these items does your motion include
that the meeting would not have a temperature gauge or is it just that the
items that you're speaking to on the first slide that's up right now the
temperature gauge is is something that people do online just like they submit
questions online it's so that wouldn't interfere with that and I would modify
it to be up until the last meeting because the last meeting we do have to
take a vote mr. chair I would speak against the motion feel like what the
chair has presented reflects feedback from committee members I know that many
of us myself included have not been we've been vocal about our concerns
we've been clear about our concerns some of us about 20 of us were pretty vocal
about our concerns at the last meeting in the form of the standing rule vote
excuse me but I think there is also legitimate concern that we are a large
committee we are a committee that if we had been designed from the beginning or
only open discussion we would probably not be this large we were we were made
this large by the City Council on the advice of the consultant so that we
could do these small groups that we would break into smaller groups so I see
utility in retaining part of the small group structure and just having some
discussion I'll tell you my experience in a small group that first night was a
lot of gosh I'm new to this process what's going on what's happening it's a
very easy low-hanging fruit kind of questions that our staff facilitator was
able to help us with that just the conversation with more experienced people
around the table was very helpful to get kind of oriented where it went south was
where you only got the one question or where you didn't get to hear all the
discussion from the other tables the positive of it was that you got to have
that kind of orienting conversation like with a smaller group folks that are
you're getting to know a little bit better you feel a little bit more
comfortable talking about talking to but then you take that your idea to kind of
crystallize a little bit and now you're ready for your really good questions in
front of the whole rest of the group so I appreciate what the chairs put together
here I think it's a good compromise to kind of manage the size that we are I
think it's a good compromise and the two different approaches and different
processes we've talked about and it retains the deliberation is done by the
whole group we have some conversation we have some chit chat we have some
orienting ourselves amongst the small groups and then we have going forward
open deliberation everybody hears everybody everybody hears everybody's
questions but you're a little better you got you see legs a little bit thank you
any other comments on the motion yes sir
this is my first bond committee and so and I'm really excited to be here great
presentations last week and I was listening to Jesse talk about why he
felt that we should maintain your your proposed rules and after listen to her
since this is my first she kind of brought up a thing that it kind of was
made my my my thinking cap come on is that since this is my first one
obviously there's a little bit of a learning curve for me to understand the
bond process and I see a bunch of numbers in all this stuff and and I
believe me I know that these are some big numbers and we all have a birdie
pretty steep hill like up ahead for us but as she talked about and thank you
for bringing it up by the way that they're there's probably some things
about bringing a bond to the voters that I don't know about and that there's a
lot of learning people in this room that have been on bond committees staff
people have been through bond process and obviously our city leadership has
been through a lot of them in their and their travels and it was bought up last
time about there was a question by somebody actually it didn't start out as
a question it started out as it was talking this gentleman was talking and
then it was he was kind of made clear to him that you you can't just talk about
something you have to form a question and so to your comment it was kind of
you got to be jeopardy and all that you got to you know and so that's the part
that I really didn't like and when she brought it up I have a lot of concerns
about some stuff bringing a bond election in this climate and the economic
climate that we're in so but how do we I think in our small table there's got to
be a bigger form to where my views should be heard by the other small table
people and I want to hear what they have to say too and so I just don't want that
to be limited I want to be able to say something to the group but I also want
other people's to talk about to the group and said I just think it should be more
open there there might be a compromise somewhere between what you're proposing
is keeping this and what she says to men maybe your process for the next meeting
to make sure that when we do have an open discussion committee discussion I
would imagine that's that second last item on the agenda is that the discussion
should be residents I mean committee members standing up and given him give me
your your experience of bringing a bond to the to to the public and so I want to
hear those and that's the purpose of my standing up thanks John any other
discussion on the motion yes mr. chair yeah my only thing is uh obviously it
sounds like something that can be handled by the staff you know in really I
think you guys if y'all can just you know take it you know and say okay you
know on both things that that they're talking about do a SWOT analysis on it
then you can push it back out to us and then we'll can take kind of look at it
because right now I think you know it's just taking away from time you know in
in really when you really listen to what both are saying they're similar it just
using a different tool and you just need to just fine-tune it with a SWOT analysis
and I think we can move forward thanks mr. Crouch has discussion I'm going to
I'm going to somewhat repeat what I said last week about the small groups there
are some of us who are not shy we'll stand up and talk about anything at any
time there are other people who are afraid that they might look foolish if
they stand up and ask a question because they don't have a good understanding of
it and that in a small group setting there's an opportunity to sort of float
that out and ask is this an important question I don't understand this part of
it so I think that that the small group time helps those who sometimes just
aren't willing to put themselves out there in a larger setting we should use
that we should use the expertise of the people around the tables who perhaps
won't stand up but have some knowledge or the people who are around the table
who who are just concerned about not wanting to appear appear that they don't
know what they're talking about that small group time gives people the
opportunity to have some discussion in a smaller setting and then determine maybe
with some other people the table that is a really important question and empower
them at that point so I post the motion I think this process is good and I think
we ought to support it looking at your proposal in hearing these statements
that have made what about if we change a little bit of the ABC or the one two
three you get your presentation by the city staff then with your moderating we
ask our initial thought process questions after we've done that then in
the small group time we take up some of those answers and see what needs to be
taken further then you go into the written Q&A and then as you say the
committee discussion totally at the end that recaps it it's a good suggestion I
think there's a motion on the floor which we're gonna have to be voted
voting up or down at some point and maybe if that fails that's a
recommendation we can move on I think we have a couple other comments thank you
Julie at the back table I saw two there okay call the question all right is it
clarifying the motion I think the questions been called which I think means
we got to go ahead and take a vote on this and that's all right John most of
us aren't myself included great at Roberts rules of order and we ought not
to be we're just average citizens trying to figure this out amongst ourselves so
I get it all right let's go ahead and take a vote on the motion on the floor
let's vote to call the question all those in favor raise your right hand this
is just to say let's go ahead and vote on the motion that's all this is saying
all those opposed raise your right hand okay so we're now we're gonna vote on
the motion as presented by miss Hayworth all those in favor raise your right hand
motion what's that do you want to repeat of the motion if you're in favor of her
motion raise your right hand all those opposed raise your right hand so the
motion fails do we have another motion make a motion that we accept the proposed
process with that one adjustment of flipping committee Q&A and small group
okay the motion there's a motion is there a second there's a second any
discussion can you repeat the motion maybe give him a mic let him right okay
what I'm referring to is when you look at the slide please give her a mic so
everyone can hear the way it's listed on the slide if you read it with my
suggestion number one is the presentation by the city staff number two
is committee Q&A because that way you can ask your questions as soon as the
staff finishes after that we go into small group to further amongst the table
figure out if we have any additional questions and then since the written
part that could be done at the end if it's going to be electronically so I'm
going to move that to the bottom and then move committee discussion up after
the small group that way you've got two opportunities one right after staff
presents we can all ask questions to we could mull it over amongst ourselves
three have the opportunity to then further discuss them if needed and have
staff available and then fourth is when we go and submit our written Q&A
no I get it so so she was just clarifying what her ideas were he's got
the motion he's got it is that your motion as she stated or do you want to
clarify your motion so everyone understands it I would accept that
although it seems to me that the written Q&A is something that happens throughout
throughout and after the meeting so it's kind of a thread throughout the whole
thing and may I just interject here look my view of process is if we've got to
iterate in the middle of a meeting because there's not a lot of interest in
one discussion on something we iterate as a team I mean the idea is to give us
a framework upon which we can move things forward in a fair way that
everyone feels needed and even if we get to the end of today trying something in
whatever order we're doing it in and next week we all look at it and say we
can drop this piece or we need to that's the whole goal we just need to be able
to be iterative as necessary so the idea here is to at least get something that
start moving us forward and then if we need to make adjustments along the way I
think we can all work together to make that happen so I would accept the
amendments I don't have a problem with them yeah I think we just need a clear
motion so the motion would be that we accept this proposed process with the
amendment that we move committee Q&A to the second position small group to the
third and written Q&A down below committee discussion so written Q&A
moves to the bottom committee goes up small group goes down committee Q&A
goes up is everybody thoroughly confused any discussion on that motion all right
all those I just wanted to speak in favor of keeping it as is partly because
after the city staff presentations it's helpful to chat with the table process a
little bit sometimes I answer get my questions answered at the table that I
don't even need to bother asking later on so in terms of order for me that's
the most helpful to hear from everybody before I decide am I gonna even ask this
question to the full room is or did I answer it already but it also just helps
like process your own questions beforehand so I find that order helpful
small group discussion would be less helpful further down once we've already
started talking any further discussion good evening I said I wasn't gonna but I
was the process school I was wondering I'm one of the people in here who went
through the process with the school district with as the proposed process
with the consultant and it really worked beautifully now I know the city is
different but I will say I'm one of the ones who said that we didn't hear the
voices of the small group once we started having the large community
committee Q&A the voices around the table were silent and so I think it's
really important that we have the small group first before the large Q&A
because once we have the large Q&A what's the purpose of a small group
because most of the stuff has been asked and aired already and the reason that
all of us agreed to serve on this committee is so that our voices will be
heard by the people in the communities that we represent and so I think that I
think that is important and so we're gonna vote on this the way we're gonna
vote on it but I like the process as proposed because it gives everybody a
voice we have two more comments and then I'm gonna call the vote on it miss
white and then Adams in the back I promise I'll be brief I just wanted to
speak in support as the proposed amendment is realigning the order
because I feel like having the small group time after the Q&A with staff
allows the small groups to process if there's additional questions if there's
clarification to kind of mull it over as a group and have further clarifying
questions that they may not have thought about if they hadn't heard what some of
the other group members have been asking as a whole so I think it gives that
opportunity it also gives that opportunity to kind of find that middle
ground where people that may have a quieter voice or be more intimidated or
be more introverted to still have that opportunity to discuss in the small
groups thanks Mindy Lenny I was just going to say that I'm in favor of the
second order because once the big questions have been asked if there's
just confusion they can be asked kind of aside at your table and that we have
spent far too much time discussing this issue it's not that important and I move
for the question well there's a motion so again this
motion is there a second this is a motion just to say let's vote on the
motion on the floor so it's voting whether or not you want to go and take
a vote on mr. Thurman's motion all those in favor all right we can go without the
vote let's call for a vote on the motion mr. on mr. Thurman's motion it was
seconded by miss Remski I believe all those in favor show your right hand
please we're gonna need to count them keep them up all those opposed right
hand let's have a recount if you are in favor of the
motion please raise your right hand keep it up
if your hands up please isn't democracy fun all those opposed raise your right
hand 16 to 13 okay so the motion passes thank you we've got one little aspect
of process left and that is to discuss I'm gonna ask vice chair Susie to come
forward and talk specifically about how on those last couple weeks we're gonna
arrive at a consensus in the process for that the reason why she's chimed in on
this process is she was a part of the 2019 bond committee and a lot of the
insight for this came about through how they reached consensus towards those
last final days so I'd give her the chance to share a little bit more about
this all right so Kevin and I work together on this trying to figure out
sort of something in between what was originally proposed and sort of what
happened in 2019 so for meeting five what this could look like or what we're
proposing is from staff a finance advising costs and tax rate presentation
so kind of looking at all that all over again based on what we just voted on
small group discussion would not happen right after that but we would do open
Q&A discussion on the total amount and the tax rate and then I totally missed
small group discussion after that I guess or after the the comments but it'll
basically be the same process we just voted on after that presentation and then
each of you each of us would receive a survey where we would prioritize what we
would want to see in the bond package and then provide our proposed dollar
total dollar amount this would be done electronically and we would it would be
due about 48 hours after it was sent out and then all of those would be
aggregated all of those results all of our prioritizations would be aggregated
into one list where we would see the rankings aggregated so this is very
similar to how we did it in 2019 where we individually prioritized the data was
aggregated and then we had a prioritized aggregated list that we then used to
kind of vote what was going to go in and what we didn't want to put in the
package for meeting six we would review the results of the total dollar amount
that was aggregated what everybody had suggested and then we would review the
aggregated results of our individual prioritizations and then we'd have Q&A
and discussion and then we would start working on voting things that we want to
move forward and recommend to City Council so we'd start making a list
voting things up or down and then at the end we would have a final vote on the
total list of projects we would want to recommend to City Council at the end of
that so this is very similar to 2019 there are several folks who were on the
2019 bond in the room so they can also kind of help describe as well so that's
the proposed process very similar to 2019 any questions or comment Mr. Crouch
moves approval do we have a second we have a second by mr. Thurman any
discussion on the motion mr. Davis thank you I'm good at the process before the
motion was made I was gonna suggest maybe we give ourselves a little bit of
time with the process we just decided on make sure we're good with it over the
next couple of meetings and not bind ourselves too much it doesn't make a
difference like Kevin said we can we can change even if there's a motion and a
vote to adopt this process tonight we can if it's not working out like you said
I think the chair I can put it back in front of us to do something a little bit
different the one thing I would say even if we adopt this as it's presented is I
want to be careful that we don't constrain ourselves six meetings two hours
a meeting that's a great goal but if we get down to the time where some of us
have strong feelings about certain projects and as a learned friend of mine
the moment has told me on multiple occasions the easy stuff the easy stuff
and then you get down to the gosh I don't know and not and the the hard stuff
that it's not gonna happen stuff that's easy too right there in the middle we're
gonna really need to take time and I don't want to constrain ourselves to not
having a full discussion about that right on the bubble stuff especially
once we set that dollar amount and know what our goal is filling that out and
making sure we're all very proud of the results so very much in favor of the
process but want to have a little wiggle room on whether we need extra time or
extra meeting at the end thank you miss Eckert is there an opportunity if you're
not going to be here physically to be involved in any of these meetings
virtually I think that was decided upfront that that was not the case you
could certainly review you could watch the meeting you could review all the
materials you'll still be sent all the materials but in terms of chiming in
with comments and things like that that's restricted for folks who have the
ability to show up live oh so if for some reason June 26 you happen to be out
and you want to be involved in that certain is there any legal problem with
that there is a legal problem with that can you describe that legal problem and
opinions that are made on those meetings need to be during the open meeting well
the idea that we're proposing on here just to be clear is that the because
it's you're deliberating on your prioritization of the projects that you'd
sat through maybe the first four meetings on you had a vacation scheduled
because you just got appointed you have 48 hours everyone who comes to this
meeting has 48 hours seems to me the leeway ought to be if you have a
legitimate reason you can't make that but you participated up to that point we
ought to let them participate in that because there's nothing binding about
that that's my legal pushback a bit Kevin can I say something yes Jill's
you're referring specifically to the survey mostly right for meeting number
five would like would you be able to fill out the prioritization survey so in
2019 that's what was done they emailed it to us gave us a time limit it is not
binding it's not a decision it's just creating a list that we can work off of
on meeting six yeah that's okay the vote is right the actual vote which we'll get
to on the six you will have to be present for thanks for clarifying yep any
other discussion we have a motion and a second let's call the vote all in favor
raise your right hand all opposed raise your right hand the motion passes thank
you guys that was long but necessary to make sure we feel all feel good and
included in that process moving forward so we'll try this out tonight according
to the motion and see how it goes now moving on to agenda item C receive a
report and hold a discussion regarding updates on a trails be animal shelter in
see City Hall West so we'll start with a staff presentation on trails good
evening Gary pack and director parks and our creation again thank you for
volunteering your time for this effort tonight we're going to talk a little bit
about trail development over the past few years we spent a lot of time
planning in order to prepare for construction of our park assets and
improving our park system through our master planning through strategic
planning through the 2040 plans the mobility plan they're all tied into the
parks in some form or fashion our trail system as a whole about 75 miles of
trails and that varies from paved concrete size and the type of surface
that we provide and that's spread out of 43 different locations throughout the
city some of the challenges we have with our trail system and expanding our trail
system is keeping up with the growth so as roads are being built working with
CIP to have roads at least on our trail on one side of a road high construction
costs the inflation of price construction has gone up quite a bit it's
roughly two million dollars a mile give or take that includes construction
drawings planning everything and then a very competitive grant process that I'll
talk about there's quite a bit of grants out there for trails but there's a lot
of people asking for that that amount of money so the benefits of the trail
system and I won't go through each one of these but connectivity and
accessibility that was a big deal in our master plan it is definitely a part of
our ADA transition plan that was adopted in 2022 by City Council to make sure that
we have accessibility actually from here to there but also it's accessible in
its actual path and it's conducive for a wheelchair for example integration of
our trails with our CIP as Bonnie Bray is being rebuilt as Mayhill is a good
example that was rebuilt we have a 10-foot wide trail on the east side of
Mayhill when those major thoroughfares are being rebuilt we're taking that
opportunity to put that trail in there so we can get from one point to another
in a quick amount and usually at a pretty aggressive pace obviously health
and wellness that's obvious economic development connecting neighborhoods to
our downtown it's a great example connecting with nature decreasing
vehicular traffic so taking vehicles off the road creating opportunities for
wildlife crossings animal corridors off-road vehicles off-road mountain
bikes equestrian trails and all of these are all aligned everything that we're
doing is we're trying to align with our 10-minute walk which again was in 2019
adopted by City Council to make sure that we have green space within a half
mile or a 10-minute walk of every resident we found out yesterday that
we're at 58% we started in 2019 we're at 48% for the past couple of years we are
floating around 50% and we just up the Trust for Public Land just updated
their now their algorithm and we jumped up to 58% so fingers crossed we're
double-checking that that's right but that's a huge step for us because the
national average is 55% so we've gone 10% in the past four or five years
meeting the need so some of the desires and expectations that came out of our
master planning process the community meetings that we had and the community
meetings that we continue to have as we continue to plan for construction and
improvements of our park system trails was our number one and here's this item
is specifically in our master plan and it's on page 31 it's linked into the
PowerPoint what do you consider the most important priority for the Denton Parks
and Recreation Department and trails is number one we've spent a lot of time
planning for our trail system and we are doing that actually as we speak so
expanding that trail system increasing connectivity so every time there's a
development going on in the city we have staff on those development calls and
we're making sure that that development if it's crisscrossing where we think
we're going to have a trail we're working with that development to make
sure they're helping us build that section or at least plan for it acquiring
land to preserve open space and provide for future recreation mobility bike
friendly pedestrian crossings and walkways obviously if we're working on
major roadways we're trying to go in corridors wildlife corridors are
following creeks there are going to be times where we have to cross a road hike
and bike trail heads so areas that we want people to start and stop or rest
along the way lighting for safety reasons exercise equipment has come up
over and over and that's on our list to get to we just have we got too many other
projects trying to get done there are some grant opportunities for that and
that could go around McKenna Park Rose at Razor Ranch Park it could go around
South Lakes where you have these little stations for workout shade is another
major asset to its ass it doesn't matter what it is ball fields trails
aquatic facilities everybody wants shade playgrounds so we're trying to
incorporate shade as much as we can and then coordination obviously with local
partners DISD County and developers as well future trails in need of
development so here's a short list of some of the things and some examples of
what we're working on we have over 250 miles in our trails master plan and
that's extremely aggressive extremely aggressive it's definitely a reach goal
our one of our competitors that we look towards is the woodlands in Houston area
and they have over 200 miles so our goal is you know from a competitive standpoint
okay how do we get there how do we crisscross and spiderweb the entire city
with trails for people to get from razor from ropes and ranch to Lake Ray Roberts
how can we get people there on a trail so the breakdown of that roughly is a
hundred paved a hundred paved a hundred paddling trail so we're working with all
the lakefront communities around Lake Lewisville to have access points for
kayaks and canoes the good thing about that is that there's only a lot of
infrastructure the only infrastructure you have is to get people into the water
there's no actual pavement there's signage and marketing and access and
then about 50 miles of soft surface and that could that could be pretty flexible
but some specific discussion pecan Creek trail master plan council adopted this
plan already we actually submitted a ten plus million dollar grant to tech stop
on Monday of this week and I'll show you a graph on that the Hickory Creek trail
master plan which is basically from old Alton bridge to university or 380 that
is going to kick off this year from a planning perspective so we're getting
ready to present that to City Council for consideration Cooper Creek trail
extension Cooper Creek trail has a significant piece done it goes all the
way down to Evers starts kind of like north of North Lakes Park in Nicosia but
we want to connect that over on the north side of UNT Discovery Park to the
future Bonnie Bray and they also want to take that further east from Avondale
powerline easements so there's obviously a thoroughfare there that we can take
advantage of just like our greenways for our creeks the from 428 west over to
Bonnie Bray on the north side of the loop there's a powerline easement there
there's a couple new developments that we're working with to acquire that
property so we can go ahead and build that trail and then as future
developments come in the hills of Denton area that we could continue to negotiate
that and plan for the future Lewisville paddling trail already mentioned and
then undeveloped parkland we've over the past couple years thanks to bond
programs we've been able to purchase land and basically land bank it for
future development East Lake Park Laney and then Southwest Park years ago are
all planned for eventual development we were able to put in soft surface trails
in Southwest Park last year so people get out and start using it we completed a
master plan it does include about two miles of trails within the property but
we've actually mowed those in so you can use it today even though it's virtually
undeveloped but we did do a master plan for that property as well and that's a
future bond project consideration in the future years and then existing parks and
trails so McKenna Park two years ago we went ahead and put a loop trail around
that point six miles it's a little bit more than half sorry Jesse Deena Park
and Joe Skiles are under planning and engagement right now so you'll be seeing
concrete going in there North Point is a partnership with a private development
Eagle Creek is another partnership with a private development where they're
building the trail for us we just kind of looked at the final design plans for
that project so they're building that mountain bike trails are really the
cheapest thing that we do we've we built about six miles of trails so far today
as of today virtually with volunteers we built five point three miles at Hartley
Field Road just on the north side of Clear Creek with over a thousand hours
of volunteers and then our staff going in with the heavier equipment so those
obviously aren't two million dollars a mile the two million dollar mile is
usually the ten to twelve foot wide concrete trail that's going from point A
to point B and then North Lakes Park we're working with CIP to connect a
future Ryan E elementary school through the park to get people to allow the
students to walk to school a little easier so we talked a little bit about
all the planning and the various stages that we work through so stages one and
two are areas that we spent a lot of time on over the past couple years like
I've mentioned with all the planning documents mobility plan master plan
strategic plan 2040 plan that all outline kind of where we want to go and
help it helps guide us helps guide you as residents as well now we're starting
to transition to stage three and four where we're looking for we have the idea
we have planning documents ready to go now we're looking for funding to do the
bricks and mortar we're looking for the sweat equity efforts some of that
obviously is general fund bond programs similar to this private development
which we had mentioned in our park dedication and development fees they
also come from private development that we can use for those efforts but we're
also looking at grant opportunities so we can expand our resources to be able
to do more than just a portion of that and let me share an example so pecan
Creek this is the application that we submitted this week so up here in well
you really can't see it I'll just point to it the this is the amount of city
match so typically grants provide a 20% a 50% match that's required so you have
to have a little skin in the game so we were able to use some of our ARPA
funding as well as some of our parkland dedication to develop funding to put
together a match which was 20% the amount that we're asking and requested
from text thought is just shy of 11 million dollars so obviously that would
give us 13.7 million dollars that we can use to build trails at two million
dollars a mile with our money alone we're going to build about a mile and a
half maybe two miles depending on where it's at if there's a bridge or a
crossing but if we use that match or that nest egg to expand it we now may be
able to build six or seven miles of trail and do a lot more in that effort
so some of these examples down here is the concrete trail is roughly 11 miles
Hickory Creek is plus or minus 14 that's as the crow flies for the most part not
specific undulations throughout the area Cooper Creek easement trails which is
the Hills of Denton trail we mentioned earlier mountain bike trail so roughly
40 plus miles of trails that's a really rough number but that's probably about
seventy seven eighty million dollars in today's money some of the grant
opportunities and this isn't all of them but Texas Parks and Wildlife text thought
Department of Transportation are the big ones where we can go after funding and
there's different cycles different grant callings that we can go after
typically every year some of them every two years some of them are random but
we're trying to get things shovel ready as much as we can from a planning
perspective so when we go to a grant application we're much more competitive
than some of the other cities that we're competing against because sometimes they
submit napkin sketches or this is what we want to do we're going in there with
30% construction drawings saying that hey we just need to finish this CD and
we're ready to go to bed we've done that with some of our parks with Bowling
Green Park and villages Carmel we went in with hundred percent CDs and we are
lucky to be awarded so we feel that's putting us in a much better place
compared to our competitors that are applying for the same amount of money so
in summary we are continually going to be aggressive and strategically take
advantage of those opportunities for third-party funding we are not going to
simply rely on what we have in our operating budget or in a general fund
budget because to do what we want and what we want to do for the community is
not possible alone with just the city's resources so they're giving those
resources to somebody and we're going to get it we're going to do everything we
can to get that funding so going after local state federal nonprofit matches
that varies like I said it could be 20% to a hundred percent and again it's very
competitive key focus areas planning and design get that going as quickly as
possible and have that ready to roll so we can go after those grants multimodal
infrastructure so we're providing anybody wants walk jog rollerblade bike
to and from work across the city connectivity looking for those
opportunities to connect to neighborhoods as new development
occurs to bring people down to the core of the city whether you're Robeson or
in a northeast at Lake Ray Roberts we want to provide you a way to get to this
the downtown connecting the schools obviously safe routes to schools is
important trailhead amenities lighting for safety trail heads for start and
stop points resting points landscaping for beautification wildlife irrigation
to keep all that alive benches signage etc and then some of the projects that
we already mentioned so I guess one of the questions is what would be included
in a bond initiative if a set amount would be placed there so that's
something to talk about right now we talked about pecan Creek and Hickory
Creek those are the two largest projects that we have some of those are going to
be done in phases it's not going to be done from point a to point Z we're going
to have to break that up sometimes we have road projects that it may meander
onto that we have to wait for that to take place sometimes work with the Army
Corps of Engineers it may may take a little longer so it would be broken up
into manageable phases which pecan Creek trail is Cooper Creek trail extension
working with UNT working with a private developer developer working with
neighborhoods and working with our own city of all opportunities powerline
easements we've already talked to DME about this we've got them on board and
with regards to a process and how that would work and off-road trails we could
do within our own park property which are the easiest so as of today we're
proposing 15 million dollars like like I mentioned earlier that would get us
about seven eight miles of trails but we want to use that as a nest egg or an
investment to expand that to a larger amount by going after France and
getting those lined up that could help us with the concrete Cooper Hickory Creek
and other trail amenities and connectivity opportunities now we also
want to make sure that those trails are spread out through the entire city so
that's an opportunity for discussion but right now we're looking about 1.8 to 2
million dollars a mile some of the examples of trails that we're doing
shared use trails side paths that like May Hill was a side path powerline
easement that area on the hills of Denton north of the loop from 428 to
Bonnie Bray that's kind of what you would see there soft surface trails
Clear Creek for example mountain bike trails that we're building at South
Lakes Park and Hartley Field that we've done with volunteers wildflower trail we
have at North Lakes Park doesn't look as good as that but that's still that's a
goal for us dirt bike we have dirt bike trails we just mentioned we also looked
at ATV trails there is funding from Texas Parks and Wildlife and we have
property out by the airport where you could use it for four-wheelers or to
two-wheel motocross was an option since there's not a lot of housing out there
equestrian trails we do have trails that go up to Lake Ray Roberts for horses and
then just basic trail amenities bridges obviously are expensive or underpasses
that's where it starts adding into your your costs lighting beautification park
furnishing signage and trail heads so that's a presentation on trail
development thanks Gary in keeping with our newly discovered process we're gonna
move into a time of open Q&A so we will have time for discussion and comments
that'll come later but this is time to be able to pose Gary or anyone else on
staff with questions about the proposal start up here or you want to help Gary
thanks for a great presentation you mentioned the safe routes to school is
one of the goals that you guys have and trying to achieve with your park
investments can you talk about specifically how these trail projects
address that goal and what schools they may serve so before I go any further I
just want to introduce two staff members fence a Espinoza and Chris Escoto in our
back they're part of our planning team they helped do a lot of this work so I
just want to definitely mention them in regards to safe routes of schools this is
something that we definitely work with our city engineer Becky Davini and
Trevor crane on their efforts along the major roadways they're they're building a
lot of trails for us so May Hill that's part of their project where we may have
had a five-foot trail at some point in time we've changed our philosophy for it
to be a ten-foot wide trail to take advantage of that opportunity and really
capitalize off that so as they're designing roads they're looking that
that opportunity as well as as we're planning from a park perspective how we
can connect the dots whether it's a park to another park a neighborhood to a park
a park to a downtown or a park to a school and a school to a neighborhood so
we're trying to identify those opportunities and it's really one by
one as we work through our development team with the city wide effort as a new
apartment comes in that's on the north side of Pecan Creek Trail for example
that we encourage them to create a connect to connection point down to our
trail and that includes sometimes them building the trail we've had some of the
developments put in a couple parking spots for that's like a trailhead so
their residents can get on the trail and use that to walk to a school Ryan Road
is not the Ryan high school is not that far from there so we're trying to plan
those efforts to make sure we get from Pecan Creek up to McKinney to get kids
up onto the McKinney Trail that is that has been built for the most part so
that's kind of an example of how we're trying to take advantage of those
opportunities not just with parks and recreation but also engineering in the
city is a that's a wider scope any other questions
so basically you would be asking the committee to give you a set amount of
money say 15 million do we as a committee have any input or any further
input on how that 15 million would be spent so so we have a recommendation on
kind of like where our higher priorities are that we're working on today I think
there's an those four trails like that would be but obviously they're I mean
that cost is more than the 15 right you would do it in phases but which phase
would you do with first or that's I really can't answer that question right
now I know we picked out a couple phases of Pecan Creek because they were the
easiest ones to do at this point in time because the grant timeline it's like okay
we can make this work let's let's go after these phases if there's a phase
where it's all city property and we're to own it that could be pretty quick if
there's an area along Hickory Creek where we have to buy a piece of property we
may have to skip that and come back to it now Hickory Creek the advantage of
that one is coal ranch is a major section of that basically from 35 to Tom
Cole and they are going to build that for us so we already can count that as
kind of already accounted for but we've been acquiring land from 35 all the way
down to basically old Alton bridge and there's like two more pieces that we
need to get that so we can kind of go all the way through now that doesn't
mean where we can go build the whole thing at one time it depends on costs
depends on if there's another construction project going on the city
that we may want to wait and be part of that or wait till it's over so it's it's
not easy to be able to say we're just going to roll out and do from a to from
point a to point B we can give you a sense of we'll work on trails in these
general areas so it needs to be somewhat specific probably maybe related back to
our park master plan but yet somewhat giving us some flexibility because if we
lock ourselves into just three projects that may extend the timeline if there's
a challenge and there will be a challenge every project has it in regards
to utilizing the bond funding in a quick fashion because I know that's one of the
goals too you mentioned how many miles of trails we currently have how many
miles of trails are available either in the city proper or just outside to our
to didn't citizens that are already funded by textile that are already
funded by you know national parks in other words are there things available
currently to our citizens that are are sponsored by these other entities so
sponsored or built by okay well that's I don't have that exact example because
we've used a lot of grant funding to build various trails throughout the city
we'd have to go back and do some research to figure out how they were all
built going through the past we do have trails that go from University to Lake
Ray Roberts that's on Army Corps of Engineer property that the city has a
lease with Dallas and then we turn around and sublease it back to Texas
Parks and Wildlife and they manage those and all that property everything else
that's on there we manage for the most part that are city property that helps
I have a question on usage do you have traffic flow for the trails that are
available or a percentage of the citizens of Denton that are using these
facilities or a numerical number for the people that are actually using all of
these facilities thank you yeah great question the short answer is no the
technology is starting to get there to a point where we can put basically
outdoor traffic counts counters on the trails and that's one thing we want to
do we're working to get a economic development tool like a placer AI that
you can use to actually create polygons and see how many people have gone through
those polygons through phone technology so we're hoping that would help but there
is a duration on that in relation to they have to be in that polygon for a
certain amount of time so that even that may not be a hundred percent accurate
for trails it would be great for parks so we can probably determine how many
people were in our park to get somewhat close could you describe in the scope of
this proposed bond if you're considering land acquisition as part of the trail
development process or is that separate in terms of the purchase order for you
the 15 million dollars would go really quick it'd be could go quicker than the
trail development if land and right now no it's just for actual bricks and mortar
to build the trails so we've we spent a lot of time buying the land with past
bond program funding as well as working with our development community to try to
acquire that land so we could get to this point where now we're developing it
can we get like a matrix of your priorities for the 15 million dollars
with maybe like you know pecan Creek trails gonna be three million dollars
and maybe some of the color that you talked about earlier just so as we're
making decisions you know on what we need to do we can kind of been be
informed about what the priorities are from your perspective along with the
cost absolutely thank you and that they they're not hard numbers they would be
rough estimates I said after him catch those two in the parks trail master plan
it lists recommended easement trails as well as a possibility for expansion one
of the things that's listed is pecan Creek is that the same as the pecan
Creek trails that are listed up here as your idea and if so is that the easement
that runs along the creek that crosses like the loop and locust has that land
already been acquired so pecan Creek if would basically start basically the DCTA
trail it would be on street for a small section and then Fred Moore Park East
along the creek up to Carl Young over to Woodrow down through a section that's
private development the developer is still kind of in flux in regards to what
he's gonna do we do have an alternate plan that would go down to Shady Oaks and
then into pebble brook and basically city property north side of the landfill
on the north side of the creek all the way down to Louisville so concrete and
Hickory Creek are almost all accessible for the most part whether we own it or
we have an easement or we have to finalize an easement except for a couple
pieces of property so I think we've put ourselves in a really good position
considering the length of those projects have a quick follow-up on that piece to
the east is it is there an opportunity to use tree mitigation funds for some of
those areas because they're so heavily wooded and represent some of our post
oaks and areas that we'd like to save so we can use tree mitigation funds for
land acquisition to preserve trees and to plant trees and for some staffing and
marketing there's a percentage it's like 45 5 50 percent I can't remember if
acquisitions 50% or 45% but not for trail development that that is an
outline today in that process and that's not how we've used it in the past
all right last open question go ahead Gary there's I know state has a lot of
special rules for Parks Department or Parks in general my understanding is to
sell parkland must be a vote of the citizens but to sell city property is
just a vote of council so if the citizens vote for this package just like
the bond oversight committee and City Council has the ability down the road to
adjust how those funds are used you know put a little bit more on this roadway
package instead of this roadway package are these locked strictly to parks these
projects or the 15 million is approved would that be locked strictly to the
parks I think John the answer to that is yes because of how it's on the ballot so
if you have on the ballot parks projects the money that's approved by the voter
for parks projects can only be spent on parks projects it can't be spent on
roadways or fire stations it has to be spent on that if that's how it's on the
ballot and I think that the ballot restrictions have gotten a lot to get
tighter in terms of how those things get on the ballot just to add to that there
there's a section of Hickory Creek there are a couple sections where it's
actually following a roadway the Hickory Creek overpass and that general area
there is part of another project that wouldn't be part of this these would be
either in mostly in park property in easements that are retained for the
purpose of the trail probably those options for the most part all right next
according to our process is to move into a time of small group discussion to
reflect a bit at your table and ask some questions among your fellow table mates
and we're gonna take probably we'll see how much chatter there is maybe tap it
at five minutes and then we're gonna come back for open discussion
, thank you.
[SIDE CONVERSATION]
Whether or not it's in this year, whether or not it's in now, that's a good question. And that's a good question.
And that's a very good question.
But I'm not sure if it's in this year.
If it's in this year, it's fine.
Unless it's in this year, it's fine.
Well, that's the thing. They can't even apply for those rates.
They don't have these problems.
Because it has to be matched.
Right.
So, two billion that they already have.
Yeah.
[inaudible]
How would that help?
[inaudible]
Let's take about another minute.
[inaudible]
[laughter]
Not me.
[laughter]
I'm too old.
[laughter]
[inaudible]
All right.
The beautiful noise of chatter and discussion and questions.
I love it.
What we're moving into now is a time.
You might have a question that came out of this.
So, Gary, you're not completely off the hot seat.
But the idea of this is now moving beyond questions to just general comments, discussion, ideas from this team.
So, anyone want to kick things off with a comment?
Since I didn't ask a question.
Go for it.
I just wanted to point out to the group, I follow a lot of the active transportation funding federally and in the state.
And I can tell you, this last infrastructure bill at the federal level was the biggest active transportation amount they've ever put out there.
So, there's a whole lot more external funding for us right now for this type of project.
And I did some rough math.
If we put up 15 million and we get lucky and we get that 80% match for all of that, we could build $75 million worth of trails.
So, we can get a big return on this investment in addition to any economic development that it spurs as well.
[inaudible]
So, at our table, we had a difficult time kind of visualizing where the trails were.
So, the question would be, is there an existing place where we could go and see that?
I think we're all visual people, right?
So, it would be really good if there was an app.
Because I think that would be something that would be very attractive to people looking to move to Denton to see the trails that were available.
And particularly if they're neighborhood-based.
Do you have a response to that?
Just because is there a map like that that exists?
And if not, can something be provided for us to be able to visualize the recommendations?
Yes, we do have a map.
It looks like a plate of spaghetti, full disclosure.
But we can pull out some of the other layers and clean it up and provide it to you along with the matrix that was requested.
And make sure that's in a spot that is easily accessible online as well.
And in the future, would it be possible to do something that is visually appealing for people when they look at maps?
I know that's a map.
He's saying put some marketing pizzazz to it.
Yeah, we pretty much have a detailed list of what we have.
We haven't really sold the sizzle on what we want to do in regards to what you're saying.
But that's definitely something we can look at adding.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Did you have your hand raised before?
Was there a follow-up to that?
You got it.
Okay, second.
Are we seeing any trails on Saturday?
Are trails a part of the Saturday field trip?
They are not.
Self-guided opportunity for you this weekend.
At our table, we were wanting more clarification.
We know that the $15 million are going to be considered for all of those that are up there.
Is there a priority number one?
Number two?
Because we may not be able to get all those miles of completion.
So what is the priority for the $15 million if we get nothing else?
So one of the things we talked about at our table was, well, you know, what if we get down to it
and we're feeling really good about trails, we're feeling really good about millions for trails,
but we think it ought to be 16 or we think it ought to be 10 or we think it ought to be 9 or 11.
But that's something we as a committee get to do.
That's the process we voted on on the green pages, on the green slides.
So we're going to have an opportunity to do that.
Just because a proposal is 15 doesn't mean it has to stick at 15.
And that's the same for all the rest of the proposals.
We'll get wiggle room.
And I also want to put in a plug for trails as economic development.
There are tons of studies on this that even if people aren't trail users,
and I'm not a very good mic user, even if people aren't trail users, they wish they were.
And they want to be in a place where maybe their kids are going to be or whatever.
They want to be in that kind of place.
So trails as economic development has a lot of really good research behind it.
Thanks. Any other comments before we move on to the next topic?
Again, written Q&A.
Feel free to use that QR code on these half sheets on this topic or anything along the way.
That's the other segment of this.
So you guys are doing great.
Let's move on to the next topic, which is animal shelter.
All right.
Let's hear it for the animal shelter.
Whatever you need it to be.
Good evening. I'm Tiffany Thompson.
I'm the director here of customer service and animal services.
And first, I see a lot of supporters out there.
Some of y'all have adopted an animal.
I want to say thank you for that.
I know y'all got some amazing goodie bags at your first meeting.
I was told I could not provide a puppy or a kitten in your bag.
However, I can make your dreams come true soon tonight if you like.
So the Linda McNack Animal Care and Adoption Center, we have 22 employees.
We are in an 18,156-square-foot building.
We are a seven-day-a-week operation.
The shelter is open to the public Monday through Saturday, 10 to 5.
And then our staff is there from approximately 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., seven days a week.
And then our field operations are 24 hours, seven days a week.
So just real quickly, this is one of the newer buildings that you're seeing on the bond.
This really is about operability for the animal shelter.
It is a building that was built in 2015,
so we're really going to be focusing on the expansion that was already planned
when this building originally went in.
We have two needs for ADA, two small needs.
This is our small dog yard, has a slope, and then there's one sidewalk.
So I'm going to get those addressed pretty quickly.
So a little bit of timeline on the animal shelter,
because you're going to see a lot of things, challenges throughout this presentation,
but I first want to say that this was the Taj Mahal of animal shelters when we built it.
It is an amazing facility that we are still incredibly proud of.
So timeline, the Denton Animal Support Foundation decided
that they wanted to really spearhead getting a new shelter.
So they went out to the public, and through the Denton Animal Support Foundation,
they raised 30% of the $6 million cost to build the shelter.
So it is an amazing public-private partnership.
We still have an amazing partnership with them today.
So they really are one of the biggest reasons why we have this beautiful facility that we have now.
In 2008, the master plan for the shelter was adopted by Council.
The goal in that original master plan was to meet the needs through 2017.
The original plan and scope did have an anticipation date of opening of the shelter of 2009.
So those same kennel spaces that were planned in 2008 is what was ultimately built and opened in 2015.
So we've done a really great job about utilizing the facility as best as we could,
but we're just at that time where we need to expand.
So groundbreaking occurred in 2012 for construction, and we opened the shelter in 2015.
So this is one of my most favorite pictures.
So this is a great example of how some animals come into the shelter and how they leave after rehabilitation.
This guy was sent out to foster care, gained 17 pounds, became incredibly healthy, and was adopted out.
So last year we took in approximately 4,800 animals, 3,000 adoptions.
650 animals were unified back to their owner, so that's amazing.
If you lost your animal, we were able to unify 651 people.
7,100 fill calls, 43,000 customer contacts.
And we also have a pet food pantry that we will provide pet food to anyone, no questions asked.
You just come to the shelter and we'll give you what you need.
So some of the challenges.
One thing I want to note that we do have an interlocal agreement with Denton County.
So approximately 10 to 15 percent of our animal intake does come from Denton County,
mainly coming from the north areas where there is not animal shelters.
So we do have a full cost recovery with that.
But that certainly is part of some of our capacity challenges right now.
By 2030, we're anticipated to increase by 38 percent.
Our capacity right now is 114 dogs and 164 cats.
We are at capacity right now at the animal shelter.
I want to note that we have 44 dogs currently out in foster care and we have 160 cats out in foster care as well.
So if you could imagine if we were having to take in all of those animals without the support of the community,
how greater of an issue that would be for us.
So again, thank you to our supporters.
We do currently have a wait list of 100 animals.
I want to highlight that if there's an animal that is incredibly unwell or aggressive,
we take those animals immediately.
They're not on a wait list.
A wait list would mean, hey, I don't think I can care for my dog anymore.
It may be something to do with they can't feed them anymore.
So we would provide food or maybe they're moving.
So we really work with those people to say we want to try to keep that animal out of the shelter.
So we have a wait list that we work through.
One of the other reasons why we have a wait list, number one, we're at capacity consistently.
Two things we do not do at the Denton Animal Services.
We do not euthanize for space and we will not warehouse animals.
So what that means is we don't have pop-up kennels.
A lot of shelters will do that.
They have 164 kennels, but they may have 100 more pop-up kennels in hallways,
wherever available real estate there is.
We do not do that because we want to make sure the animals in our care have adequate space
to be able to be comfortable as possible in the shelter environment.
I just wanted to give you a little bit of information on that.
So currently because of our capacity, we don't have enough kennel space.
We need to expand.
As you can imagine, the laundry -- I took this picture last week.
There's a lot of laundry that goes on.
Every animal gets a clean blanket every day and fresh dishes and sanitized dishes.
So that is a true case.
We do not have a designated housing area for small and furry animals.
So that's guinea pigs, rats.
We have rats right now in the shelter.
I may have not walked closely to that this afternoon.
We have squirrels, any type of small and furry.
We don't have a designated area.
So right now they're in these kennels in our training room or they're out front.
And whenever you walk in, you can see a little guinea pig.
So we want to make sure there's a designated space for our small and furry animals.
Also, our animal intake area is currently -- you walk into the lobby or you pull into the back.
This middle picture right here are two doors that should be used for animal intake area.
We have our vet clinic.
We do surgeries four days a week at the animal shelter.
That's currently at the front of the shelter.
We want to be able to move that back and gain efficiency so people can come in these front doors to drop off their animals for intakes.
So all of our turped areas need to be replaced at this time.
Turp is supposed to last eight to ten years.
So we're exactly where we're supposed to be.
We do have some dips.
Obviously, animals, when they get outside, they're pretty excited.
So they're going to do everything they can just to buy some time.
So it is an opportunity for us to replace the turf.
Our exercise kennels are our kennels that are outside.
Whenever we need to clean the kennel, every kennel gets cleaned every single day.
We need to move that animal out of the kennel so we can properly clean it.
That is on the other side of the shelter.
So what happens is we're physically moving that animal to a very long distance.
And one of the dangers of that is cross-contamination.
They're also very large dogs.
You can imagine being pulled by a 120-pound dog back and forth.
It's very labor-intensive.
So there's an opportunity for us to relocate that to also save steps and time for our staff.
Sorry, gross picture, but that is a toilet where we actually take the feces out of the kennels and flush it.
That is continually problematic.
So we just need to take that out.
So there's an opportunity to get a better use of that space.
Our HVAC system currently needs to be replaced and revamped.
What we have found is that not all areas have 100% intake.
And so that currently allows for cross-contamination.
One of the greatest dangers in an animal shelter is a virus outbreak.
It is incredibly hard to catch.
And once it's in the shelter, it's incredibly damaging.
Last summer, we had the Khaleesi virus outbreak.
That's an upper respiratory virus with felines.
A lot of times they're asymptomatic.
They don't even know they're sick until they're sick.
And we did have to euthanize 120 cats last summer.
So cross-contamination, air ventilation is crucial.
Sometimes those virus outbreaks usually happen approximately once a year.
Unfortunately, that is not -- every shelter is at that danger and at risk of that.
So that isn't something that you don't see everywhere else.
That's just part of the shelter environment.
However, we have found that some of these rooms are sharing a system.
So a healthy cat room is sharing a system with an isolated cat room.
So that's one of the dangers that we have right now.
And then when you walk up to the shelter, we have these amazing little cutout boxes.
That's a cat porch.
And so the intention of that room, as you walk into the shelter,
you see these little fluffy cats in the window.
You're like, oh, let's get a little fluffy.
You look up here, there is no ventilation in these rooms.
So we can't house cats in there.
So if we hit capacity for our felines, we can move a couple on there.
So if we do have them in there for a visitation,
they're only in there for a very small amount of time.
We do not have sufficient rest areas for our staff.
As you can imagine, Animal Services is a very labor-intensive operation.
So we want to be able to provide them a good resting place.
Also, sorry, gross picture again.
This is a hoarding case.
And then some of the delicious animals that we get to pick up out in the field that are rather smelly.
We do not have showers for our staff.
So they do not have a way to clean off before going home.
So that's something that we would like to be able to provide them as well.
So spacing for staff.
We are bunked up with each other.
This middle picture is actually our conference room.
So all of us are just bunking up as best as we can.
We don't have adequate space anymore.
We've gone through that.
And there's a lot of shelving throughout the shelter that's just really high.
And it's nonfunctional because you can't reach it.
So the intention of the proposal is to expand the animal shelter facility at our current site.
It's approximately $13 million to do that.
We're going to increase the capacity to be able to take in more animals,
change the functionality to increase how we can better operate,
and then obviously replace the HVAC system.
These first two pictures are from the original master plan.
So expansion was always part of the plan at the shelter.
They knew we were going to need it at some point for that.
So those were some proposals where it could go.
This is a bird's eye view currently, that third picture.
So that's where the proposed expansion would go as well.
This is one of my favorite pictures.
That was an animal at the shelter.
That's my cartoon dog.
And I am most happy to answer any questions.
I did want to introduce Shelly Meeks.
She's coming up here as well.
We'll tag team the questions for you.
She is our animal services manager.
All right.
Thank you, Tiffany.
Questions?
Start with Suzy.
Tiffany, so I was at the dog park one night and observed a dog get abandoned,
and Mindy actually kind of helped me take care of it.
And I afterwards was wondering if it could have been because of the wait list.
I was wondering if that person maybe couldn't get the dog in the dog park,
so he just abandoned it or take it to the animal shelter.
So I was wondering if he abandoned it at the dog park as a means of getting it
into the animal shelter.
So my question is, right now, if you're at capacity and you'll pick up a dog
that's abandoned or lost or whatever, what do you all do with that dog right now
when you're at capacity?
So we find a stranded dog that absolutely comes into the shelter.
It's not denied.
We don't say, "Hey, go hang around Bill Avenue."
We absolutely pick it up.
We take it to the shelter and take care of that animal.
Any questions out here?
Well, mine is not really a question about the facility, except my question is,
why are the pictures, the materials in our notebooks, so small?
We can hardly see it.
And when there's writing there, we can't read what that is.
It's underneath the pictures.
Can we have the materials be a little bit larger?
I think that's some great feedback that we can take into consideration.
Yeah.
I think they're trying to put two to page, but I think you're asking for larger
so you can see the graphics.
That's helpful.
Thanks, Lenny.
Up there.
So with the proposed $13 million, is that -- I know we planned this last one in 2014,
'15?
They did the master plan in 2008.
Okay.
How far does this next $13 million get?
Is that good till 2035?
It will be an additional 10 years.
10 years?
Okay.
But it is in combination with effective programs.
For example, the foster program, microchip your animals,
want to put that plug out there, for that.
So it's in combination of making sure we have effective programs.
Like the 44 dogs we have in foster right now, the 164 cats,
we need to continue to expand on those programs to make sure
that we can maintain that capacity with the extension.
Great question.
Thank you.
Got a question back here?
I'll grab it.
It's Kimmy.
I was on that board that originally built the animal shelter,
and I know we were relentless in fundraising,
and I was wondering if there's still fundraising avenues
that could help stretch the $13 million that you're asking for.
I think we absolutely could do that.
I think one of the reasons why we wanted to put it on the bond,
because that was always the plan for the shelters,
is what the expansion is.
And so this is a great mechanism to put that on the bond, certainly.
But depending on where this lands, that may be the next option for us,
because we do need the space.
And thank you for being on that original committee.
Another question back here?
This is similar to what was asked of Gary,
and maybe with future presentations as well,
but if we could get a matrix of what you view priorities and the money,
how you would break apart that $13 million across those,
it might help us as we make decisions.
So I was curious if the HVAC is something that's normally covered under the maintenance of the facility,
so out of a different budget than bonds?
Well, since if it's not something that we can get covered in the bond,
it is something that we would have to address.
Again, we're looking at it as just that operation whole.
The HVAC system alone is approximately $1 million to address,
and so that's why the opportunity to put this in the bond was placed in it.
Any other questions?
So if you're able to get the $13 million, what would be your capacity for animals?
We would be able to double it at minimum, hopefully even more once we get the final plans,
but that's the plan now is to double capacity.
There's your talking point.
And then if we have another, we'll do another after that.
Ever since Betty Sherman realized that this was going to be tonight,
she's just been blowing up my phone, as you can well imagine.
And so in here, you say that Denton County animals from outside the city are about 15% of the intake,
and I know that the county pays something per animal,
but what are the chances that we could negotiate something with them
to help also contribute to the building of an expansion, not just per animal,
because they have no shelter of their own?
That is correct, and that's absolutely part of the discussion.
We obviously need to know what we're going to be able to fund in the bond
and then have those conversations with the county.
They certainly know what the need is with that, so I agree with you.
We have one more question.
Okay, Mindy, then we'll move into small group time.
My question was about capacity, was just to ask about what it would increase to.
When we were looking at trends in intake that you're seeing right now,
whether it's from population growth or economic stressors,
is the projected expansion based off of what was put together originally big enough
for what you're seeing the trends in intake?
There was a fascinating sentence that Shelley and I found in the master plan two days ago,
and it said the expected growth that's happening right now should not be continuing.
That's what they anticipated back in 2008, that that was not going to happen.
I would love to talk to that person and hand them some kittens and cats.
So they really did think this wasn't -- it was unprecedented, is what they said.
And so we're definitely experiencing that impact of COVID, too,
where we saw that strike dip and everybody got their COVID pet,
and then they were like, we're all going back to work.
So that's definitely been impactful, too.
So we're really trying to plan for the future.
But again, it's in tandem with making sure we have effective programs, too,
and the community support to say you neuter your animals and microchip them.
It's definitely a combination thing, because if you build it, they will come.
All right, awesome.
Well, let's move into a few minutes of table talk.
I'll give you guys a minute warning when it's time to wrap,
but go ahead and have some small group convo.
[SIDE CONVERSATION]
(people chattering)
- Let's take about one more minute.
(people chattering)
- As you're wrapping up at your table, just a reminder,
if you got questions you wanna submit via the parking lot,
QR code that to your phone.
(people chattering)
- Good evening, everybody.
I'm Christine Taylor.
I'm in the city manager's office.
And tonight we're gonna talk to you about City Hall West.
So a couple background things we want to cover
is the building construction began in 1927.
It's a Spanish Renaissance revival style.
It's currently designated a Texas historic landmark
and in a city of Denton landmark.
It has approximately 24,600 gross square feet.
And since 1927 when that construction began
and in 1931 when we moved in,
it's been utilized in several different capacities
for the city.
And it was last occupied in 2016
when our development services function was housed
out of there, our planning department.
And since then it has been vacant.
So this slide quickly hits on a couple of different
of the timeline of those different purposes it served.
So originally in 1959 was that first kind of renovation
where the building was a fire station.
Skip into 1980, then it was a police station
where we added in the infill
of what was previously an auditorium.
1995 is when the planning department occupied that building
and they were there until 2016.
So it has been vacant.
We're gonna talk about in a couple slides forward,
there was a steering committee
which made some recommendations.
And out of that is where you're seeing
the last kind of construction that happened in the building
which was to replace the exterior windows.
And in 2021, since the building was vacant,
there was a break in a line
which caused some flooding during winter storm Yuri.
And so since then they did a remediation in the building.
So the ADA is only hitting on the outside
of the perimeter accessibility challenges that they have.
There were 12 high priority barriers,
mainly focused on parking and the path of travel.
Here's a couple of pictures of what happened
in winter storm Yuri, what that kind of looked like.
So since the building wasn't occupied,
that line had bust inside.
It kind of filled the bottom floor with water
which then caused some power issues
which sent off an alarm.
Facilities responded to that, saw the water.
And then we've done the emergency abatement
and kind of the renovation.
I say all that because we do have it
on the tour schedule for Saturday.
So we won't be, you're going into a pretty
down to the studs type building.
And there's only a small portion of the building
that you'll be able to walk through.
City Hall West is a very interesting building.
It has several infill floors.
So we will send out bigger slides
so you can kind of take a look at what that looks like.
So we've got the balcony and then an in floor,
the second floor, another infill floor,
the ground floor, and then the basement.
And kind of hitting on what we talked about
that the tour won't, you won't be able to go up
to all of those floors or down into the basement.
We did a video.
Okay.
The all electric Mustang Mach-E
is a complete remix of what an SUV can be.
The advanced driving system,
the convenience and room of a sport utility vehicle,
and the iconic style.
Since its construction in 1927,
City Hall West has been home to a variety of city services,
including city council, fire, police, planning and development,
and even the Denton Community Theater.
The building is now in the process of being renovated.
I recently got to tour the building
as the restoring architects performed their first site visit.
I'm Alexis with Arcitexis,
and we were taking a look at the old City Hall West
here in Denton, and looking at the two infill floors
that were put into the original auditorium space.
Trying to get a better understanding of all the work
that was done to the buildings in the previous renovations,
and try to restore some of the community aspects
that the building once housed before.
It's just the building is very odd.
With all the work that's been done to it,
there's a surprise around every corner.
Well, what's fun is that now we're seeing the concrete base.
The skylights were added when the floors were added,
because they don't have any windows up here.
So this whole thing was infill,
so there would have been the three windows
that we restored recently.
And you still have the archways, though, for the windows.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's nice that those weren't taken out.
I'm glad that this was kept intact,
because, you know, once again, this could have been removed.
I feel like so many of these details were lucky
that we actually preserved them.
This was originally the balcony, a portion of the balcony.
That portion will remain
and be a part of the future balcony that's restored.
I was going to say, I'm not going to lie,
I think that's the haunted bathroom that I was told about.
Oh, in the bathroom?
The bathroom. That's the haunted bathroom, I think.
All the abatement has really helped us,
because now we can see everything.
That's true.
Okay, wait, maybe I get turned around.
Hi.
Okay, we're going to go down that side.
Oh, wow.
And somebody took the time
to build this cabinet around it, too.
Oh, my gosh.
Do you mind if I go up there?
I'm going.
Wow.
So this is a different landing.
So we have a different entrance, basically,
to the original floor before the second floor was added.
So it's just a landing to nowhere at this point,
which is pretty fascinating.
And the fact that they left it in and didn't just remove it.
Wow.
We have some FEMA forms.
Seriously, if there were any ghosts,
it really would start in here.
These are beautiful.
Yeah.
I didn't even see those when we originally came in.
This area is really where we see the most
of what it originally felt like.
Everything intact, yeah, for the most part.
And how beautiful the door and the transom is
and the light fixtures.
We're excited to see the evidence
of the previous tile in some of the spaces, too.
Oh, yeah, that's really neat.
Well, I'm excited to see what comes next.
Wow.
And Cameron, the star of the video,
our historic preservation officer, is here.
So when we get to the Q&A portion,
if there are specific questions about the historical context,
we'll be here to help answer questions.
So when staff vacated the building in 2016,
a steering committee was established in 2017
to determine what should they do with the building.
The committee was comprised of three council members
and 21 citizens, and they had several goals
that they wanted to achieve through that committee.
So a couple of high-level ones were to preserve the reuse
in an appropriate manner,
rehabilitate the character in the building,
the character-defining spaces,
and then convey the civic pride.
So the outcome of that committee was, in 2018,
staff presented their final recommendation to council,
which included that they would like to see it
as an adaptive restoration of the building
into a multipurpose arts facility
with space for rentals
that had some type of cost recovery component.
The consensus of council at that time
was to only proceed with minor changes,
which the outcome of that was the updating
of the exterior windows.
So final building use out of that committee was not determined,
and funding was not allocated for any restoration.
So it has remained vacant from that point,
and nothing has been done other than the remediation
after winter storm hearing.
So in January 2022,
the city entered into a contract with Architectsys.
That is who you saw in the video.
They're an architecture firm
who works with historic preservation.
And so they went through the building
and came up with some concepts and designs
on what could we do with this building.
So in November of 2022,
our city council received a work session
on what the renovation project would look like.
And after running through the options,
they provided direction to consider the project
as part of the bond committee for you all to evaluate
and consider moving forward.
So the renovation, we'll talk through kind of each floor,
but the outcome was it would include
some type of municipal service office space,
the restoration of the auditorium,
which would be a community auditorium that could be used,
rentable event space on that bottom floor,
and then a rentable courtyard on the exterior portion.
So the drawing that you're seeing on the right
is the ground floor basement on that version of the building
where you see that would be level A and B.
So the purpose of this space in purple,
which would be a multipurpose space
that could be rentable by anyone in the community.
And then the portion in red would be the outdoor courtyard.
And the rest of the floor would be dedicated to support space
since it is a partial basement.
So here's some additional information on the outside.
That yellow portion shows what that exterior courtyard
could look like.
They, of course, would have some landscape buffering there.
And in a future slide, they show some light concepts
of the fencing or how you could kind of make that private
so it could be rentable space.
They recommended exterior improvement
to the entrance off Elm.
So right now, you know, there's some parking spaces there,
so they looked at having where you could pull in
so there could actually be a drop-off,
and then a plaza,
and then working on the accessible access from the comm.
Again, another slide just showing what that patio courtyard
could look like.
Those are some light concepts that architects
have provided to us.
So that main entry, which would be level C and D,
shows that we would be restoring the auditorium,
which would provide 200 to 230 seats in it.
Again, could be used for any type of events
in the community, rentable.
Not a performance space, but an auditorium for speakers,
open house meetings, public forums,
any type of event that someone would like to use it for
other than performance.
They would restore the entrance and lobby and stairs
and kind of keeping with that grand architecture,
that when it was built in 1927.
And then the portion in yellow would be the portion
that we could repurpose into municipal space
or conference space that could be rentable
by the community as well.
So the exterior design includes restoration
of that grand entrance that we talked about
with improved approaches, entry courts on each side,
and then restoration of that grand staircase
and auditorium and lobby.
Upper floor E is an additional space
that could be municipal office space and conference space.
And then level F in their plans called for restoration
of that balcony, which you could see in the video
with additional seating that is counted
as part of that 200 or 300 seating.
A projection and sound room
and connect to the existing auditorium.
A couple successful examples where communities
have taken historic buildings and repurposed them.
This was in Sulphur Springs.
The post office was turned into their city hall
and took a prominent location in downtown.
The Salmon Center for Public Arts
is probably the closest one we were looking at.
So it is city owned right now.
Currently they're using it for multi-use facility,
public meeting facility, and an event,
a rentable space for event facility.
So the proposal that you're seeing,
considering it's part of the bond program,
is to renovate the existing building onsite
at an estimated cost that we had provided to council
in November timeframe in January was 9.4 million.
So the major goals of this project would be
that you have active use of a historic landmark,
active use of a restored historic auditorium.
We would restore the grand entrance from the street
with the improved approach.
It would provide community and auditorium space
with the restored balcony.
It would add additional space for the community
for events in that courtyard.
It would add additional municipal office space.
Based off the space and our space standards,
we think it could accommodate between 15 and 20 employees.
And that probably would be our parks
and recreation departments, since they would manage
running any type of rental of the facility.
And then it, of course, would provide additional
public meeting space.
That is it.
- Thank you, Christine.
What questions do you have of Christine?
- This is Cameron.
- Or our historic officer.
- Could you speak to the need on how you are projecting
that uptake of usage in the rental space?
In other words, how are you estimating the demand
if this renovation was to go through
how often it might be used or what types of events
might take place there and basically just the cost
recovery aspect of this project?
I'm just a little curious on if you could
provide more detail, please.
- The cost recovery came out of the steering committee
by saying, hey, this is what we would like to see
out of this.
When we brought this forward to council,
architects said the first thing that we took forward was,
what do you want to do with the building?
We still have them retained on what the programming
services could be utilized out.
And that's where the cost component came from.
As far as the building use, they took into account the goals
from the steering committee, which is defined,
what do we have existing, which is that auditorium space,
and then the demand to provide additional rentable space
for community events or any type of performing arts
with the original one out of 2017.
So architects provided us the potential use for that space
based off steering committee feedback,
and then they did additional public input
as they were working through the programming of the facility.
- With already such limited parking downtown,
if we are going to have an event that really would hold
200 people, like you're predicting here,
what are your thoughts on where everyone would park their car?
- The city is currently undergoing a parking assessment
because it's a challenge beyond the use of this building
just downtown in general.
So that's something that we are working to look
at the entire downtown.
So we have two things going right now.
The downtown master plan, which they're working through,
getting a consultant for that, which will look at parking,
and then we're doing an actual parking assessment
of the downtown, and what do we need to accommodate
everything going on in the square and that general proximity
for any event that's going on.
- Do you feel that we are fulfilling a need
for additional public meeting space in some of those items,
or are we trying to find a purpose for the building
to do those things?
- I think the main goal of it was to have the building occupied,
have a historic building, have a use
that the community can utilize.
Right now it's sitting vacant.
I don't think the main goal of it is meeting space.
It's to preserve a historic building.
Cameron's saying yes.
So to preserve the building and to, again,
get some life in it that the community can use it,
versus it sitting there vacant.
- Go ahead.
You've got a couple questions up there.
- So did I hear right when you said
there would be no performances on the stage,
and what was your logic on that?
- We brought forward two uses.
So we did propose it could be some type of performance space,
but out of it, the outcome when we spoke to council
about potential uses were that we would use it
for municipal office space and then just be
a community auditorium.
It's not based on anything with the design of the building.
It was just the use that we determined to go forward with.
- Does the bond committee get any input in that?
- Yes.
Of course.
Yeah.
- And so we were talking about it being rented out,
was a kitchen or some kind of area
for food service included in the--
- Correct. - Correct on that bottom floor.
That purple space is a multipurpose space,
indoor event space.
They did program in.
There is some type of kitchen.
So if anyone was wanting to hold a wedding reception
or a smaller formal event,
there is facilities for catering.
- Thank you.
- Just a note on that too.
I want you thinking, all of us need to be thinking
along that way.
Council has come up with, they want us to come together
and advise them.
And so I was on city council.
We're not the smartest people in Denton.
And they've gathered the smartest people in Denton here
to be able to advise them on what we think's best
for the community.
So keep that brainstorming alive so that as we forward
those recommendations, we can provide that to the council.
- So my understanding is that there was an auditorium there.
So is the plan to restore the facility
where you have an auditorium with a projection system
for the main floor and the balcony?
- Correct.
- Okay.
Thank you.
- All right.
I'll go here and then grab her.
- Come back to me 'cause I just blanked out.
- Always happens after eight o'clock.
That's what happens.
- Yes, I don't want.
- So there was the discussion of it being
like revenue generating facility.
Is the intent that it would be like a profitable investment
or that it would recoup 50% of the investment or 30%?
What's kind of the target there?
And with the comparable successful project,
what was their kind of revenue generating like?
- So when we retained architects as part of that
was to come in and do programming, program planning,
which would look at that cost recovery component.
With this type of rental facility,
it would not ever be a full cost recovery.
We did, I believe in 2019, I thought I had it on the slide.
We did a request for information out to see
if there was anyone interested in coming in
and running that.
There was only one response
and they didn't see how they could make it successful
'cause we did talk about there is the opportunity
if someone came in to use historic tax credits
to restore the building,
but there wasn't any interest to move that one forward.
- I've got a question right here.
It's kind of two pronged.
I've sat in on that discussion with architects before.
It seemed like there was some discussion in the past
about there perhaps being a public-private partnership
in the development of this space
and what that might look like as far as what the public,
excuse me, what the private might pitch in to the project
and how that might work.
And additionally, along that lines,
has the city looked at what the value
of that building and land is,
what that might look like if the city,
maybe there's no funding.
I'm just throwing this out there.
Please don't bash me.
I was being not sentimental about 1920s architecture,
but has there been discussion about
what's the value of that building
and if the city were to sell that,
is there an appetite for somebody to fully make it private
and to redevelop that?
- Hey, I need to send in the follow-up information
and specifics of what they recommended,
but we did put out a request for information
to see if there was any interest
'cause do they need to own it for the historic tax credits?
Yeah, so we did put that out there to see
is there interest for someone to purchase a building
and then they could use historic tax credits
to try and make it into a profitable model.
We had one response to that
and then they decided not to move forward.
But I think there's follow-up information.
To this point, my understanding is
out of the outcome of the committee
and our conversations with council,
there's never been any discussion
of removing the building or valuing the site,
so I don't have that information.
I'm sure we can look at what the value is right now
and provide that, but that's not been an option
they've considered to date.
- And then discussion in comments
about a public-independent partnership.
- That's what I think we'll, oh.
That was what the RFI aimed to see.
Is there any interest to do some type
of public-private partnership and the responses were low?
So which is where we shifted to,
we'll turn it into a space that could be rentable,
but it wouldn't be a cost recovery, 100% cost recovery.
- While I was on that contentious committee,
we fought about everything,
but we didn't fight about the point
that we felt that the city should restore the building,
and architects came up with some wonderful ideas
because they are the premier,
they restored our courthouse correctly.
But as far as no performances,
that was never discussed because one of the things
that we talked about was that there are a lot of festivals
that come here that could use that auditorium space.
We have our storytelling festival in the civic center.
- I might have said that before.
When I'm saying performance space,
it's like renting it out for a full play for several weeks
where no one has to be able to use it.
Fully intend that someone could rent it
for like the arts and jazz festival.
Yeah, a recital, yes.
- But we always envisioned having the ability
to have another performance space in the city,
which is desperately needed.
- Yeah, community auditorium,
so I'm not the expert on that.
I might be using the incorrect language,
so we can provide an update on that.
But certainly any group wanting to use it
for a recital, for a music event,
is certainly what the purpose is intended for.
- I actually performed on that stage in 1973.
(audience laughing)
- Yes, as a part of that assessment,
did they look at the roofing, the plumbing?
Because you did say that they had,
the last time I was occupied,
that's when the storm came,
and I know as a homeowner and stuff,
I moved into an older home.
Luckily, the guy took care of it,
but I've been in there a year and a half,
and I had a problem with roofing, plumbing, and windows.
- May call Tom Kramer out to answer that,
but since the building was unoccupied,
we did not do the facility condition assessment.
Tom, come up here and answer that.
There's not anything in the building to assess,
but he can speak to the roof and the structure.
- Yeah, so as Christine mentioned,
this is a non-occupiable building
because from the facility's condition assessment,
there is nothing to measure against.
So it is currently at 100%,
which means that we need to have a major investment
into this building to keep it occupiable.
We did do some assessments internally on the structure itself.
That's why this building doesn't need to be tore down,
because it's structurally sound,
but all the internal components are either destroyed,
moved, gone, or unusable in the future.
- And I will mention that the windows were replaced recently.
They did go through the Historic Landmark Commission,
I believe, in 2019 or 2020,
and those have all been replaced,
and those aren't going to go.
- Could you speak to any information available?
I swear I'm holding that right.
Could you talk to us about the 200 to 230 seating capacity
and how that kind of stacks up against
current city hall, campus theater,
middle school auditorium,
some other things in the immediate area
that can be used for performances or meetings
and that kind of stuff?
And then could you talk to us a little bit about
the limitations of the space for something
like a full-blown play?
You know, dressing rooms and wing spaces
and all that kind of stuff?
- I think we'll need to follow up on what the capacity is
at some of the other theaters.
I know at City Hall I think we're around 140
at capacity in the council chamber,
and that was full like last night,
and you know, people can't come in.
So it is definitely a larger space
that could be utilized for larger events.
And you're correct, and I think that's where
I might have been mixing words on the performance space.
The limitations are the storing of props,
equipment, and dressing rooms.
So any type of music event that wants to come in
and do a show recital, that's a great place for it.
But if there are major props, rehearsal space,
dressing rooms, that would be a limitation.
- Campus is $399.99.
- All right, one more question that we got.
If we don't, we can go to table talk.
Kim.
- Hopefully this will be a quick one.
What have you guys looked at in terms
of other funding sources?
This is a state landmark building.
Do we have options with public ownership
to have any matching funds?
- So, yes.
- There we go.
That might be easier.
I'm just gonna mess that up.
So there are other forms of funding involved,
but the city could not be the owner of the property.
So it would have to be owned by a nonprofit.
It would have to be used for commercial uses.
They just got rid of universities,
so institutions that has been removed
from tax incentives.
So it would have to be a commercial use purpose,
or it would have to be a nonprofit.
So that's kind of where we're having the issue right now
in terms of finding other funding
at the state and national level,
is that the city does own the property.
- All right, let's jump into some,
a few minutes of table talk.
Get those juices flowing,
and then we're gonna finish this thing up
with a final round of comments,
and we'll close tonight.
Thanks.
(people chattering)
- Just from looking at the other question.
(people chattering)
- Let's spend about another minute
wrapping up our conversation.
(people chattering)
- All right, let's start wrapping up
the conversation at the tables.
(people chattering)
And before we jump into this final comment section,
Peggy Capps has agreed to do a reprise
of her role of Sweet Adeline
(people laughing)
back at that 1973.
So if you could hand her a microphone.
(people chattering)
Okay, we'll do that next week.
So what questions do we have?
Or not questions, comments, discussion.
This was a very robust Q&A and table conversation.
So I imagine there's a lot of thoughts on this.
Anything?
(people chattering)
- Just something to consider.
How much are we paying right now
to keep it maintained and afloat completely vacant?
- Tom's coming up.
But so any maintenance on it right now
is just part of our normal operating budget.
And with it being stripped,
there's only minimal maintenance to it.
We're probably walking the building once a month,
once a quarter.
- Yeah, we try to do once a quarter,
walk through the buildings.
If you remember from the condition assessment,
at the point where any money we put into this is lost, right?
So even if we keep it vacant,
we're still required to go
and make sure the window caulk is good.
The roof still stays intact.
We're not breaking other plumbing fixtures
in the wintertime,
running the little bit of lights that are there
and then the outside chillers.
So any of that money being invested in that building
while we keep it vacant is just lost.
We'll never return it.
And if we do put any money into it
to make it minimally operational,
the minute that we do a full overhaul,
that money there is also wasted
as an investment to this building.
- We were talking in our table.
Is there any way to gauge the economic impact
of having like a landmark staple building
for an event or something
and how that impacts the other local businesses around
so people are going to a restaurant doing this
and all these other things
'cause they were drawn to that space?
Do we have anything that could help support that?
- Yes, and we can provide that in a follow-up.
Wayne, our economic development director,
has given us previously, if the building's occupied,
this is what the economic impact is.
Because again, if we have people in there's office space,
they're gonna walk to the square,
they're gonna eat lunch there.
So he definitely has some models
that kind of show an economic impact.
So we'll follow up and provide that
in the parking lot questions.
Good question.
- Christine, you mentioned parking study.
- Apparently don't hold the bottom.
- There we go.
- You mentioned parking study.
What's the timing though of more parking coming online
vis-a-vis this coming online?
- There wouldn't be any additional parking coming online.
Right now the parking for the building
is the public parking lot behind the building.
The lot, this parking lot would be considered
close enough proximity if there was an event.
So there wouldn't be any additional parking
proposed with this building,
and there's not any additional public parking
being proposed in this downtown area.
Again, the two things that are gonna kind of help us guide
what our need is, is that parking assessment
and then the downtown master plan.
- I would just point out that
whenever there's an event downtown,
that parking that's in existence is full.
- Even when there's not an event.
- So kind of a two part question,
but I'd like to hear from other people in the room.
I get a sense from the folks who are involved.
There are lots of people volunteering numbers
from campus theater.
In our festival community and in the existing facilities,
kind of the extent to which those are booked up,
the availability of those, the need for more space
from a community standpoint, spaces like this,
but then also from the city,
like what kind of meetings is the city having?
What kind of public hearings is the city having
that could be somewhere else?
I know we use this room a lot
because it's the biggest space available,
but it's not always the best setup.
For us, it's great, but for other meetings,
it might not be the best setup.
So kind of what is the need from a municipal side
and then from a community side also that's already there?
I can speak a little bit about the Denton Community Theater.
It has 299 seats, and it's always utilized
because we have musicals and performances and rehearsals,
and we have many other people that have asked to lease it
for recitals and weddings and things of that nature
that we have not been able to do.
We have a children's theater
that we were desperate to find space for.
Now we're at the mall, Skull and Triangle Mall,
and the community theater is doing like a black box
where the movie theater was at the mall.
But we looked for a long, long, long time
to find space that would be appropriate for the theater.
So there's a lot of performances out there that probably could...
In answer to your question, Jesse,
everybody's always looking for rehearsal--oh, sorry.
In answer to your question,
everybody is always looking for rehearsal space, always.
Performance space, like Janet said, we're constantly--
we go from one show to another to another,
and then between all of that, we have church in there,
and we've got, you know, some of the dance--
the dance projects are in there.
But constantly, rehearsal space is always a need
for all of the performances in this town.
One more comment?
I don't know if you guys would know the answer to this,
but I think--I just want to ask about this in comparison
or looking at that fine arts building on the square,
which seems to be sitting empty.
How does--does that play a role into any of your thinking,
or I think it's privately owned, I'm not sure,
but is there any discussion that takes in consideration?
There's another theater building just a couple of blocks south of that.
I'm going to provide the correct response through the follow-up,
but that theater, I believe, has been vacant since 1981,
the fine arts theater.
And so our economic development director's philosophy,
which will provide his correct responses,
doesn't take away from anything.
We're just adding more space, more reasons to be downtown,
more reasons to have events.
So I'll provide the correct response,
but that's the philosophy he shared with investing
in any of these facilities that will provide more space.
So speaking for DBFF, Natalie's going to hit me.
We would definitely love to use a space like that,
because being downtown, I think, as people come to Denton,
it's really important for them to be able to just experience what's downtown.
And so I think that's one of the things that our attendees always talk about.
They can walk six minutes and get to the next restaurant or venue.
So I think it would be great,
and we could utilize it definitely throughout the year,
not just that period of time.
Awesome.
All right, guys, we're heading into the last thing for tonight,
and what that is is the facilitators have in their packets QR codes
for this temperature gauge.
Now, again, the idea is it's a five -- you get to react on a five-point scale,
one being currently I feel like I'm in full support of pushing this forward,
and five being like, no way, and then something in between.
So it's asking you seven questions when you get on there,
starting with last week's projects, since we're catching up.
I just did it.
It took me about 30 seconds.
So the idea is to just scan that with your phone.
It will open up a link.
You start the survey, and then you scroll down through it,
giving it your -- whether I'm in support or wherever you fall on that spectrum.
If anyone needs help, raise your hand.
We also, I think, have a couple computers elsewhere in the back
that if somebody can't access this in their phone, we can help you get access.
My phone died during this three-hour meeting.
Come on back.
I think they're going to get you back here.
And then as soon as we're through with that --
yes.
And one more announcement.
You're finishing that up.
If you have not yet RSVP'd to come to the tour on Saturday,
you can do that live here.
You can come up here to the front of the meeting and let Tammy know,
and she'll get you set up.
We'll probably have a new QR code next time, yeah.
All right, so I'll let you guys finish that up,
but for the sake of those of you guys who are ready to get going,
we officially close this meeting.
Thank you guys so much.
We'll see you next week.