1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,520 it's been a Monday for most of us yeah all right so I guess I'll call the order on the meeting of 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:16,720 the Board of Ethics and we have a quorum here uh you know now let me know if I miss anything I'm 3 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:27,360 supposed to say it's 5 30 Monday Monday May 1st 2023 um all right so just go into the items 4 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:36,560 consideration Board of Ethics 1A BOE 23-018 consider approval of minutes March 6th and March 5 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:45,120 13th 2023 I believe uh March 6th was the regular meeting I was absent so I mean I didn't see any 6 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:52,800 glaring obvious like any glaring obvious approval that's approval any discussion everybody want to 7 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:58,560 say anything about all right is there a second second all right uh moved by Annetta second by 8 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:05,920 Tom Pryor uh I don't know can I call on the first names are y'all planning like that okay no um 9 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:13,280 all right so all in favor of approving the March 6th minutes say aye aye all opposed 10 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:22,720 right so uh everybody unanimous approval and then the March 13th minutes our advisory board 11 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:31,040 of um I think it was Hannah and Dustin and Andrea and um so anything any discussion those look good 12 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:40,400 to you guys motion for Dustin for approval second by Hannah all in favor say aye all opposed all 13 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:49,120 right unanimous approval of that okay uh item 1B BOE 23-022 receive a report and hold a discussion 14 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:54,480 regarding the 2023 packet of proposed amendments to the ethics ordinance and board of ethics 15 00:01:54,480 --> 00:02:00,160 rules and procedure and I will throw that to you Hanson all right so as you all know the board of 16 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,400 ethics uh boarded a packet of nine proposed amendments the ethics ordinance and rules of 17 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:09,920 procedure to the city council and they discussed that on April 4th uh based on that discussion the 18 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:16,400 city council generally gave direction to include proposals one and five uh in in amended ethics 19 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:22,000 ordinance as the board intended in addition the council gave direction to amend the ordinance to 20 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:27,120 create clear procedures for submitting affiliated or partner business entity relationship disclosures 21 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:32,640 as well as require the city auditor to provide a copy of a submitted complaint to the complainant 22 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:37,680 once it's accepted those two amendments were related to proposals nine and ten but not did 23 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:43,280 not include the entire part of them did not include their in their entirety and then no 24 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:48,320 direction was given to move forward with any of the other five proposals uh the next steps are to 25 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:53,680 bring revise language forward to the city council for adoption probably a junior no five uh as an 26 00:02:53,680 --> 00:03:00,800 individual consideration item so that's the update on that so um the ones that they didn't have 27 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,920 direction um I mean I don't want to get too lost in the weeds on this uh did they just not say 28 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:10,400 anything or there was like like for instance the campaign contribution is what I'm interested in 29 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:15,440 was there any discussion or they did they did discuss them I would have to go back I think I 30 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:21,040 provided some backup a small summary in the backup um so I could pull that up I can't remember off 31 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:28,320 my head what the discussion was you can look at it on the it's also reported yeah I I didn't watch 32 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:34,960 it they had a lot to say actually we talked for about two hours for a certain discussion about 33 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:43,200 all of them yeah not just that one pretty heated really I guess maybe like people four people 34 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:48,240 against and I got here or this is just harder reading there was a real circular discussion 35 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:55,440 that was hard paying anybody down they were kind of unwilling to take so we just kind of went nowhere 36 00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:02,080 this is a very divided council and I have watched some council meetings where it just kind of raised 37 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:07,680 my blood pressure to watch but let me say it was two or three times worse being in the room oh you 38 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:20,240 were you were there oh yeah that's right I think I know it was body yelling wow some yelling by a 39 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:27,840 couple of people and then body language that was really fearful from some I mean it's not nice to 40 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:36,080 sit here and watch just stuff you don't see on the video it was very circular interesting if there's 41 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:43,920 no direction what are we what are we supposed to do with them um that means that they didn't give 42 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,640 direction to include the amendment and didn't give direction to the board to continue working 43 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,280 on the proposal it doesn't mean that you can't bring it up again just that they did not give 44 00:04:53,280 --> 00:05:00,960 direction for you to do so that sounds like answer your question I mean it just doesn't sound very 45 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:09,760 productive but I mean we work really hard and then they are just well that yeah I guess I'm 46 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,880 just wondering or are we supposed to revisit this now and change the language are we supposed to 47 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:21,440 review the notes from the meeting and there were some that I would say some of the issue was just 48 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:31,520 like we need more clarification on what this means okay so if and so if you would like to revisit 49 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:41,760 those we can okay all right I guess we might consider we might bring this slide back up when 50 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,160 we get to the end and talk about future meetings because we might want to change what our future 51 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:54,000 meetings are based on this based on what we're going to do um yeah I would say a lot would 52 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:02,240 depend on how the election turns out yeah I think if I mean potentially city council could 53 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,880 change a lot and we could potentially if we still believe in some of these bringing again 54 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,840 into different people maybe different so maybe not so they're literally split three and three 55 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:20,800 yeah so it's well I think that's on a lot of issues currently no I don't know okay um I felt 56 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:34,080 badly for um well she's the only well she's one of a few people in this room that gets paid to do 57 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:42,080 it at least the rest of us for taking that's true yes can I ask a question please I'm sorry yes go 58 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:53,520 for it with the election result I mean could we literally just we you know take the I mean could 59 00:06:53,520 --> 00:07:00,560 we just resubmit it after the election is over and the new the new city council I think they can 60 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,600 correct me if I'm wrong but I don't there's nothing saying we can't if we wanted to have you wanted 61 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:12,560 to submit any another packet of proposals in July or whenever um well not July but because we don't 62 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,720 meet in July but uh whenever you would like you can bring any proposals you would like forward 63 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:29,200 adjust it however you would like okay that's a long list I guess my advice to submit would be to 64 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:35,680 reduce us down to two or three items that we feel are the most important like in the future in the 65 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:42,640 future as opposed to if especially if I'm a new council person and I see this long list of changes 66 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:48,000 I'm gonna kind of be deer in the headlights but if you just say here are the two or three 67 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:54,320 we're recommending at this time we're still working on others then we're saying this is 68 00:07:54,320 --> 00:08:01,440 not everything but these are three of importance that we really recommend at this time I think 69 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:06,960 that's not that's a pretty good idea and devil's advocate some of these are pretty clear and short 70 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:12,240 but that might be a better idea and that way we're not stuck for two hours people getting mad and 71 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:20,160 yelling at each other um something for us to consider any other discussion on this 72 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:28,240 I have a downer well we did work and they're like I'm great I mean I can wait until we 73 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,760 until we discuss our our future meeting topics but if we have direction on nine and ten 74 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:39,440 we can revise that language and submit those to you that that is going to happen they give that 75 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:44,640 direction to me oh that's just once once that language is adopted I'll make sure you all are 76 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,800 aware of what exactly is the ordinance that's unchanged oh I see so they took they were like 77 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,560 we want it revised in this way and you're just going to do that and send back okay correct so 78 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:57,680 we don't have to do that's what I was thinking we have to do that no we have that basically done 79 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:08,000 okay more wins than I realized yeah yeah four then all right uh any more discussion about this 80 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:21,200 okay um anything else on that uh not at this time okay um all right item 1c boe 23-019 81 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:26,800 receiver report hold the discussion and take necessary action regarding the creation of a 82 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:36,720 public comment period for the board of ethics meeting um let me see that's um do you want to 83 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:42,400 kind of just go over I can go over really quick and then yeah sure so during the february meeting 84 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:47,280 of the board gave direction to set up a method to receive public comment based on discussion with 85 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,120 the city secretary's office there are two main methods of public comment that are used by other 86 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:56,800 cities and boards in general one is basically to specifically comment on agenda items and the other 87 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:04,720 is to just present on items that are not necessarily included on the agenda so two two is agenda items 88 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:11,360 and then three is presentations which just means not necessarily on the agenda essentially um and 89 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:19,280 so uh based on that information these are all the options essentially um and then just as a note if 90 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,920 uh you would like to allow for public comment we may need to change the rules of procedure I think 91 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,440 I'm not entirely sure but it's certainly if it's one of the you want to allow it at 92 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,600 meetings where it's currently prohibited we would have to do that so that would have to go to council 93 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:37,680 for adoption essentially I have one thought um I think we should we can discuss because I 94 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:42,080 think there's people with opinions as far as regular meetings when it comes to advisory and 95 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:47,840 preliminary evidentiary hearings I'm kind of hesitant to want to have any public comment because 96 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:53,840 like I don't want the people on this board to feel intimidated by maybe someone powerful that 97 00:10:53,840 --> 00:11:01,040 comes in and makes some statement and it just it's it seems like it would make it not as uh I guess 98 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:09,920 you know maybe fair and you know I think that's a whole different creature yeah so I in my head 99 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:18,240 that's not I don't think there should be public comment at a hearing but I definitely would like 100 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:24,000 to consider it for regular meetings is there anybody who thinks we should have public comment 101 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:35,280 and what's bc and one bc and d up there I do not um Madison first of all I thought you did an 102 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,840 excellent job of kind of splitting this up and where we can kind of look at these individually 103 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:45,040 as far as the regular meetings and I think that's that's really a great way to look at 104 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,000 I agree um with what war has just mentioned I think we need to take these individually 105 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:57,440 and discuss all of them um one at a time because I really think that like you already mentioned in 106 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:04,400 the case of of advisories or without the full participation of the board I think it would be 107 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:10,800 extremely difficult to allow the public end of that discussion with half the board missing from 108 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:17,680 that meeting so um yeah I think when you're going on like a specific issue like and something has 109 00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:22,800 maybe happened it just seems I don't know I don't like the thought of like the public to just come 110 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:28,400 and say what they want and then you know it could sway people on things that aren't actually in the 111 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:33,120 evidence we've also had a discussion about whether or not the complainant should be involved in those 112 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:41,840 hearings that so I don't see why we would open that up for a comment yeah the complaint is not 113 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:48,080 yeah so how about we just if everybody's in agreement it's just we're just going to go on 114 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:53,680 regular meetings and move to number two does that sound good all right so should comment on 115 00:12:53,680 --> 00:13:00,320 Jenna items be allowed so um did you want to say anything about this Madison of like how different 116 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,640 how it's done or do you have any I mean so there are a couple of different ways you could either do 117 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:10,240 it in person where someone would have to come in person um and literally come up to the mic and 118 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:16,240 speak um there's also an e-comment where the cards would basically be with their they're included in 119 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:24,800 the agenda and then also I believe distributed to y'all um I don't know if it's necessarily before 120 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:30,000 but I know that you guys would see them and then the city council allows for comment by phone at 121 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,080 the beginning of the meeting as well so that's typically when this happens well that's true 122 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:40,640 about all these um but that's also all of those methods are possible for presentations does that 123 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:46,720 make sense so and then apart from that generally most other boards and commissions have like a time 124 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:51,440 limit for whoever is speaking and then some of them have a speaker limit to say like only two 125 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:58,400 people can speak or something like that for each meeting that makes sense well and I know we talked 126 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:03,040 last time I mean I kind of like the e-comment because it opens it up to everybody like I know 127 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:08,320 I was like super rushed getting here at 5 30 from work and then people at work at night and I kind 128 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:13,840 of think that way you can have e-comments they can come to all of us and if one of us agrees and feels 129 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:19,520 strongly then we can you know maybe put it on the next agenda or something like that that's that's 130 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:26,080 my thought and then you know we're not having it I guess we'd only have our regular meetings and 131 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,800 I kind of think the in-person could just bog us down versus e-comment we could all get it we can 132 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:36,480 all look at it and decide if it's something we need to talk about or not that's my thoughts 133 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:47,120 I agree I think that that is my preferred method as well like you said it's more accessible to 134 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,680 everyone rather than it being kind of limited to those who can make it in person they're calling it 135 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:59,120 this time but they could still come in person right I mean I guess if we put it well I don't 136 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:04,080 know how that would work I mean since you put it as a agenda item we'd have to that's probably 137 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,640 something else to look at can I guess we could ask whoever we want to come speak I don't know 138 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:13,680 yeah so you can do both where you have an e-comment as well as an in-person 139 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,240 if you would like you would just I believe you have to sign up so that we know somebody's coming 140 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:23,520 well I guess are you saying like have e-comment but also add that person or have e-comment and 141 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,440 then if it's something we want to talk about let like allow that person to come like make a 142 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:32,640 presentation at the board which one are you saying I'm saying I'd like to see both oh I'm actually 143 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:39,840 I've actually gone to the historic well in the city council and you fill out a form and they call 144 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:45,520 your name the chair calls your name and you you have however many minutes that we wanted 145 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:53,440 so I like that method personally but I can see how the e-comments I mean I noticed that 146 00:15:54,960 --> 00:16:01,280 one of the boards does it both ways and I think that's would be good for us if it's the e-comment 147 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:06,000 does that not get included in the agenda automatically and then become part of the 148 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,800 minutes for our meeting e-comment would be any e-comments we would see would be included as part 149 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:17,200 of the agenda or the minutes sorry like we want to go over them specifically we would just say we got 150 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:23,520 right so like for city council if you've seen the mayor says like we've got this many blue cards for 151 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,600 this agenda item I think it's blue I don't know what the color of the cards are and they're you 152 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:34,080 know I think maybe he says this many things of course something um for some that like that and 153 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:42,000 the council sees them they all get to see them yes I'm not sure at what point yeah okay if it's before 154 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:48,640 or as part of the minutes after we're actually uh in my opinion we're about eight years behind the 155 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:56,640 curve getting the citizens involved in this entire epic process other cities uh I don't know about 156 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:02,160 the e-comments and how much technology is involved there we also have to kind of consider whether or 157 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,960 not open meetings are going to apply here in other words if we have a scheduled agenda item 158 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:12,800 do we allow the public to weigh in on that agenda item work and we have essentially cross discussion 159 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:18,400 between this board and the citizens that might attend or want to speak so you never have cross 160 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:26,080 discussion the the comments just get made and the people on the board listen well in city council 161 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,720 I mean they're free to actually ask questions so those are some of the things here I think we need 162 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,600 to be very careful and take these individuals and consider every circumstance that might apply 163 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,800 because the e-comments I don't know how much if we have the same technology for this particular 164 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:46,640 board as the city council might but it's like to say it's been about eight years and the citizens 165 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,520 it's not like they're clamoring at the door to get into these meetings but I think the more we 166 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:57,280 open this up and the more we make it available to citizens that this is your board unlike 167 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:03,840 unlike most other boards in the city of Denton this is your board and I think the citizens do 168 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,720 not yet understand that and the way to do that is to open it up whether it's in-person speak 169 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:15,840 or or anything that we choose I would rather open it up and just see what happens to invite 170 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:21,600 the public in at some point in the future if it proves to be a burden then we can adjust as we go 171 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:27,680 but I would really discourage limiting this in any way after eight years I would like to see it 172 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:33,680 opened up to any way that we can to involve the citizens of this town in ethics in any way and I 173 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:40,400 would not really recommend shutting this down or making it too narrow from the we can always fix 174 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:46,560 it later if we have to but again it's been eight years and an ethics board is the one board in any 175 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:53,600 city that should have just an open invitation to discuss their feelings about how things are going 176 00:18:53,600 --> 00:19:00,880 so can I just clarify something on that real quick if you do it if you all go for a like a 177 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:08,800 public comment any topic then there can't be discussion if it's whereas if if someone's come 178 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,360 then they sign up to speak on a specific agenda topic then there can be discussion because I 179 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:18,080 guess then it's on the agenda yeah but if someone just comes in and just talks about whatever they 180 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:23,840 want to and y'all can't discuss it because it won't be posted but we didn't put that on a future 181 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,960 agenda yes so and that's the difference between item two and three so this one you can discuss 182 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:39,680 this one you could not essentially what you've just said that complies completely with the open 183 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:45,120 meetings act and I get that completely I've been an advocate for many many years on the open meetings 184 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:49,840 act so what I don't want to do is have someone show up in a meeting and be told well we can't 185 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,640 we can't discuss that with you at this meeting whether it's on an agenda whether it's a scheduled 186 00:19:54,640 --> 00:20:00,480 agenda item or it's something that is on the mind of a citizen I would really I would really 187 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:06,960 discourage us putting any roadblocks in discussion well but we can't we're putting any roadblocks 188 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:12,640 they can come in and say what they want I'm sorry if y'all want to do that that's fine 189 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,000 but it's not going to be a situation where y'all going back and forth with that person 190 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:21,600 unless it's already unless it's already yeah well within the time within a four-minute timeline 191 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:29,760 or whatever an ethics board is is a different it's a quasi-judicial body and I understand 192 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:35,520 completely where you're coming from but I'm just suggesting that an ethics board is a citizen 193 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:41,360 is the only citizen-driven board in this town or would be and so I would just suggest that 194 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:49,040 a little bit of dialogue shouldn't be a problem up to a point so I understand so I've heard people 195 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:55,680 talk about e-comment in person there's also like phone but kind of seems to me like you could do 196 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:05,440 an e-comment or show up phone I think be the most difficult to implement yeah because I feel like 197 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:10,080 e-comment I mean you could throw something up on the website probably relatively quickly and just 198 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,560 get us the comments and I don't even know how many how many changes we would have to do to any of our 199 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:23,280 rules or anything so I don't know like I think maybe unless I'm wrong we can kind of focus on 200 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:28,320 in-person or e-comment and how everybody feels and I guess we're going on too so this is like 201 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:37,360 her agenda item right so what would happen is at the beginning of any meeting there would be an 202 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:42,400 agenda item that would allow for comment on agenda items and so they have somebody if you wanted to 203 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,840 do in person they could they would have to come in person and present whatever they wanted within 204 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:54,880 the time limit all set and then that would be how in-person worked or e-comment that would just be 205 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,560 it would still have that agenda item but the minute it would be included in the minutes whatever was 206 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:04,800 submitted it's like it's like e-capital comment is that like some kind of program or this is just a 207 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:10,000 way of saying like somebody to email in a comment uh there's a there's like a form that the city 208 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:15,600 secretary's office would help us set up to where that would be on the website yes okay 209 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:23,440 all right other thoughts I just think anything we can do to let people know that 210 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:31,680 we at least want to hear what they have to say I think that's an ethical code is here for everyone's 211 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:41,920 trust it is not here to make elected officials comfortable it's not here to make them uncomfortable 212 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:48,080 either it's just here for trust and sometimes I think we've lost that and I think that 213 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,440 there is a perception then that that's not 214 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,640 important 215 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:01,760 all right so would y'all like to just start voting like maybe we vote on it get a motion 216 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,840 vote on in-person motion vote on e-comment and then maybe we'll just leave out phone unless 217 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:11,360 somebody feels strongly can I ask a question in person would be from what I'm understanding 218 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:16,960 via online sign up or it would be like someone just walks in because I think that would make 219 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:28,080 difference I believe both are possible okay yes you would walk in and fill out a blue card at the 220 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,040 door blue card would be handed to the chair right 221 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:40,480 so I'm hearing all or none like it's both or neither if we were to vote or you're saying like 222 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,440 we could vote for just one or the other you could you could you can give direction for 223 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:55,840 whichever whatever you take it one at a time we consider comment on agenda items via e-comment 224 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:02,080 all right so having and I guess with e-comment we're not going to have time limit or speaker 225 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,240 limit so we don't have to get into that right or you comment that's correct so I know that his 226 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:13,440 motion for e-comment for agenda items from the public which madison would help implement I assume 227 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:18,800 to allow that I'm sorry I wasn't um I guess you don't really need to get make a motion 228 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:25,600 I'm just to be clear oh I just get oh this is just all right on the in the exhibit for this 229 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:31,200 agenda item it's there's a table that has what the other boards and commissions currently do 230 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:36,720 I don't know if that would that would be I think that would be helpful just so everyone can see 231 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:43,920 what if what the other boards are doing because on all of them there is some level of public 232 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:49,200 participation in the meetings some of them this isn't all the other boards and commissions to be 233 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:56,560 okay sorry but the ones that are listed allow for citizen comment on agenda items and public presentations 234 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:08,560 well are we kind of all in agreement to allow the e-comment that I guess would we can have it you 235 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,280 would have them all and it would be distributed to us and there'd be like something agenda there 236 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,480 were comments and we can choose to discuss or not am I saying it right that's how it would work 237 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:26,560 is everybody okay with that anybody seems like I think the majority is in favor of that so I think 238 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:32,800 we'll move forward with the comment if if that makes sense max yes we can clarify more if needed 239 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:43,440 okay so then the next thing on your slide was in person I don't know I personally kind of think 240 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,920 like the e-comment would take care of it and we could then decide whether we want to talk about 241 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:53,760 or not and not you know just spend time on things we think are important and not on things that are 242 00:25:53,760 --> 00:26:00,160 not important I think two of you want in person I just think we're going to deal with some residents 243 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:06,560 who are not computer savvy and then we prefer them so that for that reason I think it's important to 244 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:15,280 to have in person if they want that option and what does everybody else think you agree 245 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:21,280 to have in person I would agree to have it in person yes let's say it's fine woman okay well 246 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,000 I lose out on this one we will also have in person 247 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:31,520 okay and for in person is that uh are we still speaking of just on agenda I think we're just 248 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:38,240 talking agenda items though right we're going one by one so we don't get confused um okay so definitely 249 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:44,720 I think we should have time limits and speaker limits just because oh for sure I also think we 250 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,960 should have on the e-comments I think there should be a there should be a limit as well because I 251 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:56,080 don't want to type a 30 page yeah I'm not gonna read that I mean we have time is there is there a 252 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:02,080 word limit on the e-comment like I believe that the I have to look I don't know if that's something 253 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,040 we can do or not so I have to come back with that okay well I mean I guess the thing is if somebody 254 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:12,640 sends us 30 pages it's not likely everybody's gonna read that and maybe a citizen is just gonna have 255 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:20,800 to understand that like you know versus just a few pages or not even that much a paragraph um okay 256 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:33,600 yeah that's what it looks like yeah most of them have so um now citizen comment on agenda these 257 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,880 other ones don't have a speaker limit but they have a speaker limit on presentation I'm not sure 258 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:45,280 why they it seems to make sense to have speaking on both so what do you guys like three minutes 259 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:54,240 and what this is two and five speakers I think it to me makes sense to have a limit of speakers on 260 00:27:54,240 --> 00:28:01,360 public presentations because those are current agenda items but for the citizen comment if if 261 00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:06,320 someone wants to comment on an agenda item for that meeting that's their only opportunity so if 262 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:12,720 there's some controversial agenda item on that meeting agenda for whatever reason I don't know 263 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:18,400 that we should exclude somebody's opportunity to get their thoughts up that's a good point maybe 264 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,840 we just go with that and then if we start having meetings with 20 people wanting to comment maybe 265 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:43,200 we agree look at it but I kind of don't think that's gonna happen okay so if everybody's in 266 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:49,680 agreement we'll open that up three minute in person no speaker limit on agenda and then the 267 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,080 next thing do you want to bring up your slide again yes so we kind of know what we're talking 268 00:28:54,080 --> 00:29:00,640 about so I think we we've covered one two so we're on three should presentations be allowed if yes 269 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:07,760 for my direction on in person e-comment phone time limit and speaker limit okay so all the boards 270 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:13,120 interestingly enough only have in person on that do you know is it just like maybe it's just too 271 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:20,320 broad to be sending in whatever yeah and I may not be correct that you can have e-comment because 272 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:27,200 I think it's meant to indicate like yes I am in favor of this or no oh wait are you saying like 273 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,800 you might not for number three this might not actually be an option oh okay I think there's 274 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,880 still email we still have that process where they could email me and then I can distribute it 275 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:44,000 okay yeah we already talked about that yeah that's already in place I would just say presentation 276 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:49,680 should just be in person there's a few of these that don't have presentations 277 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:56,000 but I don't know I guess you know we have I know we have a couple board members that feel very 278 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:02,240 strongly I'm not sure everybody else feels but maybe we could try it out and see you know if it 279 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,240 bogs us all down and we can't get anything done we've got you know we don't spend more than an 280 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:12,320 hour we can talk about it again but you know maybe just come up with one of these for four minutes 281 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:19,680 up to five speakers I don't know how's everybody feel I think there should be a time limit obviously 282 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,760 but one of the things that would be a little bit different possibly about this board then 283 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:29,200 for example city council you sign up for city council you've got four minutes now here we could 284 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:35,120 have a time limit but let's say I have I have I show up in a meeting I'm a citizen I have two 285 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:40,160 concerns on the agenda can I split it up can I talk two minutes on this one and two minutes on 286 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,800 that one I don't want to confuse it too much here but I'm trying to draw citizens into this ethics 287 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:55,280 process as well I mean I would just say it's for agenda item it yes so I don't like it before in 288 00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:05,520 a total per item or just four minutes from John no I would look at it or I thought he said three minutes 289 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:12,640 unless anybody like feels differently three minutes per posted item yes okay now are they allowed to 290 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,920 three minutes on in an unposted topic not over can't be discussion well now we're getting into 291 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:25,040 number three yeah okay so what we're saying is number three should I suggest that we just have 292 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:33,840 three minute limits for one presentation for up to five people per meeting okay now backing up what 293 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,240 what was I missed what was decided about evidence for hearing someone we already skipped over there 294 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,200 are we done with I thought that we all decided we just not going to have any comments on b through 295 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:51,840 d because those are like hearings like um that would would there be a reason for that I'm just 296 00:31:51,840 --> 00:32:01,520 curious I already mentioned some of them I don't know what everybody else thinks I think we're if 297 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,240 we're having a hearing your advisory panel we are deciding on current issues with current council 298 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:11,280 people and we might not want every person off the street to come and try to influence us when we're 299 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:16,240 trying to stay above the board and not be influenced in any way and just go back Dustin brought up a 300 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:22,000 good point that the complaint actually we have discussed like complaint and you know who can eat 301 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,640 like people involved can't even present some kind of a reason why we would have you know we should 302 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:34,080 bring in private citizens yeah okay I think if they're I think if if someone not involved in the 303 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:41,760 process not the person that the complaint is about wants to us to review something they should submit 304 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:47,600 a complaint very good and they should be that should be a separate complaint yeah they should 305 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:53,280 not like tag along to another complaint by someone else because rather than involve someone that is 306 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:59,120 going to speak to that item on that that so that would be the the respondent could ask someone to 307 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,440 speak at their hearing but that would be separate from public comment and if they have a comment 308 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:11,680 about one of those things we're on number three they could present at the next meeting right okay 309 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:20,000 okay so so for number three is everybody kind of I mean does anybody have any thoughts or opinions 310 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,680 on just going with kind of what the other boards go and present it time limit five speakers in 311 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:31,840 person yes I don't know if we even do phone or any comment like Madison was saying I don't think 312 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:38,000 that would be feasible does this all seem like things you could implement right now I think so 313 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,720 okay I mean if there's trouble we'll talk about it we'll put on each other for next meeting 314 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:48,640 okay um I will I just want to say I will do the make this direction and work with the city 315 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:54,000 secretary's office I cannot promise it'll be ready by June but we'll do our best yeah I I mean I 316 00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:00,000 I think everybody understands that like I mean just you know put it in place correctly and 317 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:06,240 I can see it's not being ready in one month that's happens I guess he just said it took eight years 318 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:14,480 what's one more month right all right so agenda item is there anything else on that okay I'm going 319 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:21,520 to take a motion to amend the rules of procedure do you think we need to do that well I think city 320 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:27,440 council's gonna have to approve it yeah okay they're gonna have to so are we gonna have to come up with 321 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,880 language for that is this just going to be something we're going to have to revisit I think that 322 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:38,320 do you think we could include it in the ICA in the ICA for that work session for this next 323 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,360 no because this is going to be well 324 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:48,080 if you have presentation on it talk about but I think they're going to want to split out because 325 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,640 it's going to be a new thing that's too different 326 00:34:54,560 --> 00:35:03,760 okay I think if you would like to make a motion we'll take it and then I don't think that the 327 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,720 language unless you really want to review it necessarily needs to just a motion that yeah 328 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:14,320 okay and then we can take it to council whenever as best we can as fast as possible okay and then 329 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:20,480 maybe at the next meeting um we can maybe discuss what happens and then one of us if we don't like 330 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:25,280 the language we can talk about it then but it already may be in place there's there's no way 331 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:32,640 that we will be able to get an ordinance adopted by council in may okay so okay all right so um 332 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:41,680 look I think that we amend the rules of procedure to allow comment on agenda items 333 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:50,640 with a three via e in-person or e comment with a three-minute time limit right now and speakers 334 00:35:50,640 --> 00:36:00,080 yeah we said no limit on agenda and then that we further amend it to allow presentations um 335 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:16,960 yeah in-person but honestly I don't know how much I haven't made presentations before and 336 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:23,760 I swear four minutes comes up lightning fast well that gets people on you know on topic 337 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:32,000 true so we do it are we going to do I think we talked discuss three three okay with five 338 00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:38,480 I'm not trying to say as maybe as discussed as discussed 339 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:48,160 second second by Hannah not repeating it but so just as a point of just to make sure I understand 340 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:53,440 yes the motion correctly to amend the rules of procedure to allow in-person and e comment 341 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:59,280 comments on agenda items with a three-minute limit and no speaking limit and allow in-person 342 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,520 presentations from members of the public with three minute limit and by a speaker limit what 343 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:09,920 you said correct yes do we have the fact that this is only applied to regular meetings 344 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:15,520 not currently in the motion can you add that to the motion 345 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:25,360 okay and then I guess do we second again yeah I still second 346 00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:33,440 with the amendment only to regular meetings thank you for pointing that out okay anything else 347 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:41,360 okay all in favor aye all opposed all right motion carries unanimously 348 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,840 we have something in place and we'll see over the next couple months how it works 349 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:54,560 um all right so agenda item 1d receive a report hold the discussion and take necessary action 350 00:37:54,560 --> 00:38:02,560 regarding the format of discussion regarding code of ordinance chapter 2 article 11 ethics 351 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:09,120 well let's burden proof I think we'll know we're having happen to say that um and then let's see 352 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:16,880 all right did you want to start by talking about I would do a quick intro so during the November 353 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,800 2022 meeting the board gave direction to have a full discussion on the burden proof requirements 354 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:27,040 and the ethics ordinance as such staff reviewed Wessler's model code and found five points of 355 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:33,440 consideration or at least for today's meeting which included one what entities are capable 356 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:38,320 of initiating a complaint two if complainants are required to swear to their allegations 357 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:43,120 three what sources of evidence are used to evaluate whether allegations are actionable 358 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:49,120 four what the evidence requirements are to move to a hearing and five if the complainant is required 359 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:54,640 to attend a hearing on their allegations based on those kind of five points of consideration 360 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,600 staff conducted research on the practices of the 10 adopted benchmarks and socialities which is 361 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:06,320 summarized in the table on the slide so I can take direction on if you potentially want to change 362 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,640 you need to bring back draft language or if you want me to do additional research on anything 363 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:16,560 basically whatever you would like so in these cities that have individual or commission they 364 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,640 have like an ethics commission is it like our ethics board or is it something else 365 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:28,320 the ones that are that say commission generally have something very similar to what we have some 366 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:35,120 of the other ones like better that say individual or council members council members some of them 367 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:41,040 don't have a board at all it's just like an ethics code that then the council members enforce on each 368 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:49,600 other in some ways and then uh like san marcos has a code similar to our board similar to ours 369 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,080 I believe Richardson does as well it's not clear in their code who exactly can submit complaints 370 00:39:54,080 --> 00:40:00,960 but like McAllen McAllen and Mesquite and they don't have a board like this essentially 371 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:07,040 I don't know my thought like if an individual can file a complaint can any individual like 372 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:13,120 people on the board of ethics can file complaints as well I don't know if it's happened yet I can't 373 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:19,440 remember it's happened twice actually I think that that is intended to mean that the commission 374 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,960 itself can say we need to initiate a complaint against and essentially not an individual board 375 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:34,800 member but the board as a whole yeah well I mean then can't anyone on the board initiate a complaint 376 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:40,640 I don't know it's kind of like if there isn't if there's an issue like have individuals speak up 377 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:45,520 like why does it have to be voted on somebody believes in it strongly they should just file it 378 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:53,600 but my opinion um so uh like I guess how do we want to do this do y'all want to like go over these 379 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,120 these five um considerations that Madison came up with 380 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:07,040 can we just talk more generally about where the garden improve the lie and why that might 381 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:13,440 well I guess I mean what like what are what are the actual things we're going to get from that 382 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:20,560 versus just going through these specific items that can be actionable 383 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:35,600 I'm just just a general comment kind of addresses what's your this this in my opinion has been 384 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:42,400 one of the biggest problems in this code that's existed existed for since it was initially passed 385 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:49,680 we have weaponized this code and placed any complaint in position that I don't think anybody 386 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:56,080 in this room wants to be in and we have a number of neighboring cities we have a model code 387 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:05,040 this is really not that difficult in my opinion that once a complaint is sworn to and filed by 388 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:12,080 a complainant and the facts have been verified in 95 of the other jurisdictions that complaint 389 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:17,440 is no longer part of the process I don't know if that's true based on Madison's research here 390 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,920 well but and also it's interesting you say weaponized because if you have a complaint 391 00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:28,240 that is filing a complaint and then washes their hands of it and never does anything again 392 00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:36,240 it can be weaponized that way in other jurisdictions the complainant can be required 393 00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:43,040 to attend a hearing if there would be any questions but to put the complaint in the prosecutor's seat 394 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:49,920 happens nowhere else that I know of in Texas this has been a problem since this code was passed 395 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:55,920 well what about Dallas and San Marcos it well it's not no the complainant does not prosecute 396 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,960 the complaint in Dallas or no well that's the source of evidence for the hearing 397 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:10,800 but I don't think the burden is on the burden is the burden is very clearly on the complainant 398 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:16,880 and the problem with it is if the complainant well first of all they're not going to have access 399 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:27,760 to a lot of information that somebody in a city position would have but if they're really emotional 400 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:34,880 that's not well I guess so what would what would y'all say that Madison does it that the city hire 401 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:41,120 an investigator to investigate the crimes or the ethics complaint that comes under the purview of 402 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:48,560 the board of ethics that is the job of this board so you're saying we would go out and investigate 403 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:55,680 well actually in San Antonio they have an entire office exactly um it's I mean this I like the way 404 00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,720 she divided it out but it doesn't tell the whole story because in San Antonio they have an entire 405 00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:05,360 staff well and that's I guess that's what I'm getting at like if it's not on the complaint 406 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:11,520 there will like I don't think I think there might be kind of a conflict for Madison because she 407 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,080 works for city council to be investigating city council so you're going to need some outside 408 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:23,680 commission or like hired person to do it and then as far as the volunteer board and we don't like 409 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,160 first of all we don't even we couldn't do any better than complain anyway I don't think I don't 410 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,480 know if that's what anybody signed up for to be an investigator helpful my understanding of how it 411 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,840 works in the model code and I may not be completely correct is that a complainant submits a complaint 412 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:43,360 as long along with evidence that they believe applies the commission essentially holds um like 413 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:50,240 a pre-hearing where they review that evidence they might issue subpoenas um or or request other 414 00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:54,720 documents basically request other documentation and evidence be gathered if they think that it 415 00:44:54,720 --> 00:45:01,600 needs to be and then um decide if an evidentiary here if like a hearing to decide sanctions and 416 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:07,680 things needs to be like take that and have another hearing to say like we would have a hearing 417 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:13,360 basically of like um you know present your cases and things like that this complainant is not 418 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:20,000 required to attend but they might be required if subpoenaed essentially and then does that make 419 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:24,960 sense and then the respondent is allowed to come and testify as well so where where does the evidence 420 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:30,240 come from who it comes it does come from the complainant but then also at that free evidentiary 421 00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:35,760 here in my understanding is that the board basically might require more evidence to be brought for and 422 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:41,680 so that's our board our ethics ordinance lets us file subpoenas but and even if the model 423 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:47,200 code says that but we like they have no teeth like we can we could put out a subpoena and 424 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:54,080 somebody can ignore it and nothing will happen so can i give you i think i think andrea raise 425 00:45:54,080 --> 00:46:00,720 your hand she hasn't spoken yet so if what i do like what i do like is the fact that it would be 426 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:06,800 a multi-step process right you know when there's a complaint we we look at the complaint and then 427 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:14,720 we could request additional evidence that that's true and that that is already the board is already 428 00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:21,680 capable of that okay it's just not we don't it's not required as part of the process well the 429 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:28,640 problem is like i said we had this discussion in 2018 when this board started and jesse was actually 430 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:34,000 on it with me we're both attorneys it's like okay we can subpoena but we have no power like they can 431 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,840 say they can they would just vote i mean and maybe you can correct me if i'm wrong they 432 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:43,440 like what is our power power is we're not judges all we can do is file an ethics ordinance against 433 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,360 them for not bringing forth the information but if it's information that hurts them they're not 434 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:54,560 going to bring it forward so it's kind of i don't know what the answer is but and i will say i have 435 00:46:54,560 --> 00:47:00,240 access to records that the city has that i could get yeah so i mean there are some like there there's 436 00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:04,480 some things we can but i would not be comfortable conducting an investigation an ethics investigation 437 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:10,160 yes well i know umesh had said like at a previous city he worked at it was it was set up like that 438 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:15,280 but he was totally separate from counsel when he was an investigator i believe that's like how in 439 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,200 houston the inspector general's office works and that's why they're allowed they can do that but 440 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:28,640 i'm not certain because i think that's i mean you know we can't get the council to agree to not 441 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:35,920 vote for things they got money for in a campaign i doubt they're going to agree to hire investigators 442 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:44,160 to investigate them just putting it that out there i think you make an excellent point let me make 443 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:52,320 give you an example um in my profession for licensed professional counselors if a complaint 444 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:59,840 gets filed it has to be investigated whether it has any sort of merit or not psychologists on the 445 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:06,400 other hand if a complaint is filed against them the the um psychology board has some kind of 446 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:11,920 internal way to determine if there's merit to it and it doesn't move forward unless there is 447 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:19,040 so guess which which board has a year backlog on all the complaints they have to hear 448 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:27,200 licensed counselors because a psychologist you know a lot of them they're able to go oh that's 449 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:32,320 not a big deal and and they close it it's it's over well don't we have that in our ethics ordinance 450 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:38,240 with the preliminary hearings there's a preliminary assessment which is intended to say 451 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:45,920 on on the face of the complaint would this be a violation if everything is true essentially 452 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:50,640 and then if not then it's considered baseless because it wouldn't be a violation even if what 453 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,640 was in the complaint was true and like going to other things like with lawyers the state bar if 454 00:48:54,640 --> 00:49:00,080 there's a grievance or something there is a office of lawyers and investigators that investigate and 455 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:09,760 prosecute it and so changing some of these things like you you would need that here and so i don't 456 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:16,640 know i mean if that like i just don't see that we basically end up hearing everything that 457 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:23,440 comes right at least every complaint a preliminary assessment panel is held for 458 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:33,840 as fast as can be held go ahead i think we've talked about some of this before um with the 459 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:39,680 source of evidence pre-hearing and all that coming from the complainant we also talked about what 460 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:46,880 or not the board members could add to that evidence and i think everyone i could be wrong 461 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:54,480 on this but i think we all agree that we could um and i think some of the concern about the 462 00:49:54,480 --> 00:50:00,960 burden of proof being on the complainant is focused on the last column there whether or not they 463 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:08,640 have to attend and present at the hearing and to me that that's the part that would 464 00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:15,680 maybe discourage someone from submitting a complaint or the other things i mean the 465 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:21,040 source of evidence the complainant should have some evidence whatever if that's an email or an 466 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:28,000 ad flyer or a comment at a meeting whatever it is they need to have some sort of evidence or they 467 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:34,800 shouldn't be submitting a complaint they shouldn't be the only source for that evidence or maybe they 468 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:40,320 are the only source but we shouldn't limit the sources for evidence to only the complainant 469 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:48,160 well then where would we get the other evidence i mean maybe it's from a board member um maybe 470 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:57,200 it's from the respondent we've talked about that as well um i i just i i think some of the concern 471 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:02,640 that you guys may have is is over the last column whether or not the complainant is supposed to come 472 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:08,800 in here and act as a prosecutor and i and i don't really think that's the the point of the board or 473 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:17,680 the point of the complaint process but i i think for us to actually review a complaint and actually 474 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:23,360 do something with it if it's actionable we have to have some sort of evidence both from the complainant 475 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:29,760 and then from whatever sources are available i mean i'm not an investigator and none of us want 476 00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:34,320 that role and i don't think we're gonna get a council or further emails or whatever 477 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:40,400 but if there is evidence that we gather in part of the normal course of reviewing the complaint 478 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:46,400 that should be allowed in the hearing and we should be allowed to use that to make a judgment on the 479 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:53,120 complaint yeah i agree completely the problem is that very last word up there and present 480 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:59,760 now we've already discussed previously that if that complainant is not particularly skilled in in 481 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:07,040 working groups of people then the option by our code is that that complaint is torn up and thrown 482 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:12,800 in the trash well that's not true that's changed we even if it's a valid complaint 483 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:19,280 that thing is ripped up and thrown in the trash i think we've changed that the complainant is no 484 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:28,240 longer required and i think they're they're required to for a complaint that they presented 485 00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:34,320 or that they submitted they're required to attend and and provide testimony it's not that it's it's 486 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:39,920 not that it's ripped up we go through a preliminary hearing we go to an evidentiary hearing but if they 487 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:45,840 do not attend this board is essentially required to say that it's dismissed that's that part is 488 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:52,560 true i'm thinking that was the whole other order the respondent going to frivolous well i sorry 489 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:59,440 i think that also goes to you know so far most of our complaints have been people that are 490 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:07,840 well they're frivolous and so if you take away one more thing as far as what a complaint needs to do 491 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:14,480 then we have the bad actors that will file whatever complaint they want right around the election 492 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,600 about whoever they want that may or may not have merit just to try to get things going 493 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:25,360 but those are the places that don't get by madison if they're frivolous in the past we have that 494 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:30,400 supposedly we have fixed that well up to a point i don't think that's true because we've found 495 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:35,200 we've found complaints frivolous that have gotten all the way to the end frivolous comes at the end 496 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:40,160 the beginning what madison does is you know have you followed have you followed the form 497 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:47,280 my dad has shored up our frivolous provisions in this code so far my you know to my understanding 498 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:53,600 right now we are much less likely to end up where we were with campbell in prior years that's so i 499 00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:58,880 don't i don't think the council really didn't accept any of those amendments well yeah you know 500 00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:04,720 eight years two complaints yeah they simply said we understand what you're trying to do you're 501 00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:09,760 trying to so i want to get back to the beginning of this conversation okay we've talked for about 502 00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:14,640 20 minutes about all this what are the actionable things that we can do that we can vote on as a 503 00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:20,640 board because i think there's different opinions what are the actual things we can do i don't think 504 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:29,120 the person should go ahead so what i'm hearing is that if we can change and present and uh in the 505 00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:38,960 last column and sources of evidence pre-hearing allow other parties specifically this board that 506 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:46,400 would meet the need am i is that what i'm hearing no and that is saying well i would say there should 507 00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:52,880 be no requirements on the complaint so they don't need to attend and they don't need to present 508 00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:58,800 well i i think that's going to get you are going to get frivolous complaints like we already get them 509 00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,800 when they have to do things and that's kind of all we get almost 510 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,760 that just requires a much better job on the front end of handling 511 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:14,560 frivolous complaints and making sure they don't know that's the whole point but then but then 512 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:19,600 depending on who's on this board you can get rid of all the complaints that way i mean i think we 513 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,520 need to think about how this ordinance has been used as a sword and not a shield 514 00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:32,720 well that's true i mean i can certainly understand that i do not have the authority to dismiss a 515 00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:38,960 complaint so as long as it is correct the form is correctly filled out it's my job to pour it to the 516 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:43,920 chair who then assigns it to a preliminary panel no offense i kind of don't want you to because 517 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:50,000 while i trust you're an ethical person whoever's in that position would have a lot of power and 518 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:58,800 you work for city council so i guess like hannah had the comments and i guess that didn't like 519 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:03,840 still what what is actionable because we can talk all night about oh you know what's in wishlers 520 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:09,600 what should we do like what can we what actionable things do we want to try to put forward and i 521 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,960 guess you know whether the city council will take her or not because they don't take a lot of what 522 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,960 we say and whether we want to put it forth whether we want to go forward on this one 523 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:23,760 like i said i mean not that i'm bitter anything but they can't even approve our campaign contribution 524 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:36,400 i believe yeah i think we tried to fix this and i think we should move forward with that again maybe 525 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:47,760 i think we need to wait and see as far as making changes about burden of proof 526 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:56,160 because i mean i'm open but like what what is actual that we can do that will make sense that 527 00:56:56,160 --> 00:57:02,240 will not result in more frivolous complaints that will not result in having to hire an investigative 528 00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:08,560 team or commission or for somebody outside of madison i'm just like what what can we do 529 00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:14,000 is there consent it sounds like these are two separate points so if i may 530 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:18,000 is there consensus that pre-hearing we add and commission i think that's what i was hearing 531 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:26,640 dustin say earlier like we can bring forth evidence i mean i guess why not but uh yeah i would say i 532 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:31,920 think right now we can't do anything all we can do is review the evidence that was submitted with 533 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:38,000 the complaint so i wouldn't want to be just on us because i i think you know the complaint well 534 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:43,360 first of all like we might not have anything like we aren't there and the complaint is the one who's 535 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:49,040 bringing forth the evidence but i mean i guess what what is the harm in us as the board as far 536 00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:54,480 as letting the whole city bring forth evidence i don't know if we want to open that up but i don't 537 00:57:54,480 --> 00:58:05,360 know do you have any thoughts tom i think the complaint must show up yeah right it's like if 538 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:12,480 i were to say and this is the you know what uh so dustin when did you have that affair with that 539 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:22,080 lady but i don't know yeah so i fill out a form send it in and i agree with that and i get y'all's 540 00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:27,760 concern but like that is my concern because of like i said how the ordinance has been used i want 541 00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:33,200 the complaint to have some kind of skin in the game yeah because otherwise i'm just starting a 542 00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:38,640 rumor yeah which is kind of what we've gotten in our complaints that we found frivolous and should 543 00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:44,960 have found frivolous but we didn't have really a a procedure to find them frivolous sort of like it's 544 00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:52,480 ethical to have integrity is sort of like what i'm drawing from that yeah like if you said it happened 545 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,640 and as far as present i mean i'm 546 00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:05,760 if they present just the evidence we have the evidence i mean that i don't know if they 547 00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,640 necessarily have to be prosecuted we haven't had that many hearings 548 00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:17,200 yeah i think i i think they're allowed to cross examine i think because maybe but we're also 549 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:23,360 allowed to have that's true yeah so i think that's part of it is that currently in the code 550 00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:27,600 the complainant must attend and then testify and you have questions essentially 551 00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:36,320 otherwise the complaint is dismissed without they're not allowed the board 552 00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:40,720 my understanding is from the current code is not allowed to continue with that if the complainant 553 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:48,160 does not attend even if they might believe that it is true and there is another essentially 554 00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:57,120 yeah i would just in general suggest that we need more information on this topic other than 555 00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:04,080 having the presenter or the complaint maybe we could contact some of these other cities 556 01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:11,840 san marcos or others to find out without shoveling work you know work in your lab medicine i'd like 557 01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:18,720 to know more about what seven people with three alternates can do to actually process a complaint 558 01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:23,840 without getting us in deep water i don't think it's that difficult i know it's done elsewhere 559 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:31,680 so i'd like to know more about this other than having the entire burden on someone who's filed 560 01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:37,760 that complaint and is required to prosecute it or have it dismissed that is not a good that's not 561 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:43,920 good so what i'm hearing from everybody to hear to steal from what hand is saying is like some of us 562 01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:50,320 think the complaint definitely needs to be there others don't there's we're not sure where the 563 01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:56,880 evidence should come from but do we tonight have anything actual we can work on because otherwise 564 01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:02,240 we could just talk about this all night and i don't think that's very productive like what go ahead 565 01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,880 okay sorry i was just gonna say i if if it's direction of the board i can bring back more 566 01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:13,040 information specifically on this last column from some of the other cities basically next time or 567 01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:21,440 whatever but and what i was going to say about as for tonight i think if we're able to make some 568 01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:28,880 concessions complainant and commission must attend strike and present like that might be the 569 01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:34,000 compromise we can come to between those of us that are here from what i'm hearing i don't know if 570 01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:39,280 that's accurate but that's what i'm hearing no one is suggesting that the complaint can go on vacation 571 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:45,280 i mean if they file the complaint i'm expecting them to be in the room when their case is presented 572 01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:55,600 to a board of ethics that they shouldn't have to be there i think i said that i'm sorry in some 573 01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:01,920 the nuns up there i don't know what those nuns mean but in our particular case i have no problem 574 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:08,160 requiring a complainant to be in the room because there might be some questions that the board of 575 01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:13,200 ethics would have that would require an answer right and it might not be part of their paperwork 576 01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:17,280 and i would hate to be told well the complainant's not here i'm suggesting 577 01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:26,480 yeah and that's where i'm at i mean i i can say i don't know but if if just like in the past if 578 01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:32,480 we're getting the information prior to the hearing and we're going through the evidence i don't need 579 01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:38,320 the complainant to present that evidence to me however i would like the opportunity to ask that 580 01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:43,520 complainant questions about that i'm not suggesting that so if that's what we're if that's what we're 581 01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:51,040 talking about we might need to look at the code and procedure as far as like that specific language 582 01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:56,080 i don't remember exactly what it says like do i know they have to be there do they have to even 583 01:02:56,080 --> 01:03:01,200 speak if they've already given their things but they're allowed to but do they have to speak if 584 01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:05,600 they're there and they've given their information i don't remember if we're reading it i have to 585 01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:11,200 pull it up so i mean it like is that what we want to focus on because this is just like too broad 586 01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,880 and we're not i mean no no effect but i just don't feel like we're getting anything done 587 01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:23,040 talking around the ground so go ahead i want to bring up one other thing the word retaliation the 588 01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:29,680 term retaliation is in our glossary but i haven't seen i believe that it is i haven't seen anything 589 01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:39,040 what if someone retaliates because i don't know if that follow falls under this agenda item 590 01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:45,520 okay it's it is the same i think there is a section of retaliation but it is a different section 591 01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:53,040 we're posted for this subsection four which reads burden of proof because the burden of showing that 592 01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:57,840 a violation of this article occurred is placed on the complainant is the complainant that has 593 01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:03,440 the obligation to put forth evidence including testimony supporting the complaint the complainant 594 01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:08,240 is required to testify at the hearing unless it is held to determine if an accepted complaint is 595 01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:12,960 frivolous a complainant's failure to testify at a hearing other than a hearing is determined 596 01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:21,360 for quality shall be grounds for dismissal of the complaint that's the entire language of the 597 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:31,200 section so i guess i mean it would be so i guess the question is do they have to testify or do they 598 01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:37,360 have to be there we're all in agreement they have to be there i guess yes and then as far as testify 599 01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:43,920 i mean i guess what does that mean here really if we're requiring them to be there then we should 600 01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:52,960 require them yeah sitting in a room search no purpose i kind of i agree with that um but i mean 601 01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:57,920 as far as like prosecuting they would just be they would have to they would have to be there 602 01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:02,960 and they would have to i mean it seems pretty broad as far as testimony and this isn't a court 603 01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:09,440 of law so what would be testified like they have to say like i believe in this complaint i filed it 604 01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:14,160 like it's not like you have to prosecute it we have if we have the evidence yeah i think we have 605 01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:20,000 the evidence to testify but i guess but that's what i'm saying like it says testify but i kind 606 01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:28,480 of feel like it just means you you have to just stand by your complaint yeah because i know you 607 01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:33,120 have to i i think from what i'm hearing i don't have in front of me like you have to answer 608 01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:41,040 questions and you have to just like put skin in the game that you filed this not that you necessarily 609 01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:48,720 you don't have to what the premise is the complaint after it gets through is administratively complete 610 01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:54,240 before it gets to the before it gets to the board now yes there might be questions that arise 611 01:05:54,240 --> 01:06:00,240 you know during a panel hearing or whatever and and yes that complaint it should be in the room 612 01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:07,680 and should be available to testify if necessary but the i just don't see how different that is 613 01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:14,560 than what we have yeah and what we have what he just read i don't like the burden of proving so 614 01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:20,960 clearly laid on the complaint i think this says you not only are you a complainant you are a 615 01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:26,160 presenter you are a prosecutor otherwise the thing goes in the trash i did not hear prosecution i 616 01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:32,080 didn't your prosecutor is i heard testify testify stand by what you've turned in as your evidence 617 01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:37,120 for why this needs to go forward so i think that might be something that we need to reread 618 01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:43,120 personally and be sure that we're all on the same page with what that's saying i mean i remember 619 01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:50,480 in some hearings i've been in i like i feel like i'm the prosecutor when i'm asking the questions 620 01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:57,840 from the board and i didn't really feel like the complaint was because i was asking the hard 621 01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:04,480 questions they didn't really know what to ask and all they were required to do is testify i don't 622 01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:09,680 know did you read it differently did anybody i think it's going to be up to y'all to interpret 623 01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:13,440 the language the way you'll when y'all are having a hearing you know it's going to be on y'all to 624 01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:19,040 decide and i think and it might have been my fault for posting it wrong this this section right here 625 01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:23,760 is what we're posting for there are some things in the rules and procedure that might be more what 626 01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:28,400 we're talking about and we can i can bring that with that specifically on the agenda next time so 627 01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:36,640 maybe we should um like this this is broad like i said it had i guess some of these are interrelated 628 01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:43,200 but like what what do we want to work on do we want to have a discussion just about complaining 629 01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:49,200 and what testimony means it's like is that where we are because like i said so far i think it's been 630 01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:54,800 about 38 minutes and we really haven't gotten much done on this and us not getting anything done 631 01:07:54,800 --> 01:08:05,440 doesn't help the ethics code this discussion accomplishes a great deal in my opinion it's not 632 01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:10,880 like we're not doing anything here this has been one of the biggest problems with this and i know 633 01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:15,600 and you've stayed in position several times and we've heard it several times i think we all 634 01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:19,040 understand where you are you do not think they should be the prosecutor you do not think they 635 01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:24,560 should have testified they just need to be in the room like we all i think we all agree that and i 636 01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:28,880 think at least four of us think they should be there they should have testified they don't have 637 01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:36,080 so that's where we are like what would we do going forward from here then we would go back and we 638 01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:41,200 would look at these other existing codes that were on that initial chart and look at other cities 639 01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:46,880 that did not require the complainant to actually present the evidence this is not that complicated 640 01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:53,760 and it's it's a process where i guess madison maybe you should we should have you go back and 641 01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:59,600 look at the rules procedure and see if they say they have to present the evidence could we also 642 01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:06,960 i specifically the one city that has attend and testify is fort worth so maybe that is what the 643 01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:12,240 direction could be is like what is the difference between fort worth's code in terms of must attend 644 01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:19,040 and testify versus denton must attend and present and just compare those two and the language in 645 01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:26,640 those two i can provide further research on specifically this last column at a future meeting 646 01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:35,040 if that's the direction important i agree with andrea let's narrow it down to yeah didn't end 647 01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:42,320 forward as a i appreciate you looking at these other cities but that's just going to add to the 648 01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:49,440 the amount of time we spend on this let's narrow it down to can we learn anything from them but our 649 01:09:49,440 --> 01:09:58,080 charge as i understand it is to say what's the best for denton as opposed to trying to migrate 650 01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:03,520 whether others are doing or not doing a lot of are not doing so this is narrowed down to fort worth 651 01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:09,760 for our next meeting or whenever that can be an agenda and compare and then make our decisions from 652 01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:16,400 there austin has must requires them to attend but not testify so it might be worth including that 653 01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:25,760 one as well since we're just as a suggestion so maybe we we narrow it down to that and have you 654 01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:33,040 look at austin fort worth and denton and have a discussion more about specifically what you were 655 01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:45,760 saying all right and i did believe we would need multiple yeah because it's actually on your thing 656 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:50,880 to like come back but but like i said like it's been 40 minutes and like we don't have anything 657 01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:56,560 actually we can do we're we're not in agreement so like let's let's maybe try again next month 658 01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:04,000 with those and see if we can talk about it more that's home yeah okay all right so more work for 659 01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:15,440 you madison uh or two um okay i'm gonna move along now to one e well this goes right into it what to 660 01:11:15,440 --> 01:11:24,160 talk about future meeting topics um so okay it's now it's been you know over an hour was there 661 01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:29,360 anything from the first presentation you gave is there anything we need to revisit there uh i think 662 01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:35,200 yeah uh as far as future meeting topics the only thing is that the mayor did request that the board 663 01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:40,640 consider how a respondent uh might object to a specific board member being assigned to a 664 01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:47,440 preliminary panel um held for a complaint fired filed against them um that at the april 4th 665 01:11:47,440 --> 01:11:53,440 presentation um so that's just so you know that he requested that be uh discussed as a potential 666 01:11:53,440 --> 01:12:00,720 future meeting topic does not require you can decide well i'll tell everybody madison called me 667 01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:06,640 and i'm usually like i don't know pick the three people that i have done at least but if there's 668 01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:10,080 three people that haven't done it pick somebody that's done it before that's pretty much what i'm 669 01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:17,680 saying i have i mean i guess like it could randomly be somebody that has some issue i guess i could see 670 01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:21,680 how that might be an issue because i do just try to randomly do it because i don't want anybody like 671 01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:28,240 coming after me that i'm like picking and uh and i know for a while there's a lot of turnovers i 672 01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:32,800 was on all of them just because i was like the only person that had been on one and luckily i'm not 673 01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:38,160 now so i pick other i do not pick myself uh but i could see how that being an issue even if it's 674 01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:43,840 a random person it could be a random person that like i don't know the mayor has a lawsuit against 675 01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:51,600 or i don't know that might be something legitimate to look at oh well no i'm just saying like 676 01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:57,360 say i'm like um you know the three of you are going to be on the preliminary hearing but i don't 677 01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:03,840 yeah i think we have a yeah yeah that's there's a so i will put that on the to-do list but that's the 678 01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:18,080 direction um so i would say oh so i guess next next meeting we do need to talk about public comment 679 01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:23,600 again maybe get an update any discussion that's needed um you already have a burden of proof 680 01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:30,720 follow-up i would suggest we increase the time on that yeah i mean maybe we should just put 681 01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:33,600 that in the future meeting because we're not going to get through pending matter 682 01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:49,360 and i don't know that i mean as far as like the mayor's comment of uh the like objection 683 01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:55,120 to plumber that i i kind of think we might agree on that quicker than these other issues on here 684 01:13:55,120 --> 01:14:03,920 yeah i'm sure so i don't i mean we could potentially do this is our to-do list essentially um so i can 685 01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:08,880 add it to there or we can add it to um i honestly i kind of think i don't know what everybody else 686 01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:12,560 thinks that the mayor's thing that he brought up about complaining about who's on the preliminary 687 01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:17,920 panel might be quicker than all those things but maybe not because it could be then like what they 688 01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:21,680 people council members object to every preliminary panel and then like they're kind of telling you 689 01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:34,640 what to do so never mind it's probably long to just put it at the bottom so uh so for june maybe 690 01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:41,920 update on the comment public comment and i think that won't take very long because i don't think 691 01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:46,960 there'll be a lot of actionable stuff that will just be like hey here's how it's going okay well 692 01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:54,240 do and then as far as burden fruit proof talk about um like specifically the testimony and 693 01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:59,280 the complaint showing up i don't know if we even want to start tackling another topic because i 694 01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:09,680 don't think we would get through it too yeah um i don't know maybe something like definition of 695 01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:16,000 alternatives maybe that would be but i mean like i feel like i'm like famous last words if i say 696 01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:24,640 any of these different quick so i'm okay if we just put kind of those three things like what we 697 01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:32,640 talked about burden proof update on public comment and future meeting topics and then like we won't 698 01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:42,160 get burnt out anybody have any that's a good point okay so i think that's that's your direction 699 01:15:42,160 --> 01:15:49,120 i believe that's it okay um i have add burden of public comment follow-up increase them and also 700 01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:54,720 only just have burden of proof on the next agenda and push pending matter advising to the next one 701 01:15:54,720 --> 01:16:03,520 yeah i think i think so and and we can do we can talk about august more i think that's the way to do 702 01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:10,640 um yeah all right so is there anything else when would we compare fort worth and austin oh that 703 01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:22,160 would be part of the okay we'll just pick right back up on that anything else all right okay we 704 01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:27,120 you had mentioned wanting to revisit the previous proposals you want me to add that to the june 705 01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:33,520 agenda or no oh as far as like what they said i mean i don't know what does it really think like 706 01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:43,200 i kind of think just the ones that they don't i guess like bring to us like kind of what they 707 01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:50,160 said about him no just oh like what if an ordinance is adopted before june uh which i don't think it 708 01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:54,480 will be um i'll certainly let you know what the new ordinance is and that'll be on the agenda but 709 01:16:54,480 --> 01:16:59,520 um yeah i guess if there's new ordinance put on the agenda and maybe we could just put on the 710 01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:03,600 agenda the stuff that didn't get passed and maybe we can talk like hey do we want to try to do this 711 01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:12,240 again i think that would probably fit in time okay clear is my message i think i understand 712 01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:22,560 uh yeah i had a long day i hope i made sense all right any i'm gonna wait till mass is finished 713 01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:32,560 writing anything else okay well it's 647 and we will adjourn okay all right thanks everybody