Oct 23, 2018 City Council on 2018-10-23 12:00 PM

Welcome, everybody, to this meeting of the Dent City Council on Tuesday, October 23, 2018. It is noon 03, and we do have a quorum, and everybody's present. We'll move on through our agenda, which our first item on the agenda is citizen comments on consent agenda items. Do we have any citizen comment cards for consent agenda items? Thank you. Agenda item number two is request for clarification of agenda items listed on the agenda for October 23. Council Member Briggs and then Mayor Pro Tem. I would like to pull item K for a small presentation and discussion, and F, the item on sponsorships, please. K and F? Mm-hmm. Okay. And on F, do you want a presentation as well? I -- it's just for a different -- a vote, and I just -- I have a question, so a presentation's not needed unless another council member wants one. So you have a question? You want to ask that now so they can be prepared in the individual -- okay. All right. Fair enough. Okay. F and then K. Anything else? Council Member Briggs? Council Member -- Mayor Pro Tem. Thank you, Mayor. My questions were about item K. I don't know if they want to answer them now or do -- doing a presentation later. I have three items of concern on that. One is section one, number 19, where it talks about alcohol consumption, refers to our code of ordinances, section 22-32. We may want to look at that code of ordinance because of -- it only allows two city facilities, basically two areas of the city that allow alcohol use. We're not allowing it at other rec centers. Which two are those? Do you have them? The Civic Center in Quicktown Park and then North Lakes. So we're excluding DENIA and MLK. Okay. And then the next one on line 21 of that section one, where it talks about no thumbtacks, attached decorations, which is understandable, but it says decorations may be used on tables only. That kind of excludes a floor decoration or, you know, a stand that's put up by the person coming in that we might want to just scratch the tables only. And then our last one was on the very section 6.4 on the fee schedule. Right now we do have some neighborhood associations that meet in there, and there's not an exclusion now for neighborhood associations to use the facilities, particularly DENIA neighborhood and Sedna. Okay. I take since we're gonna have a presentation, then why don 't we just wait and staff can just answer those if that's okay when we have the presentation. Anybody else? I've got I've got I would have pulled K as well. I've got some notes on that. I'll just find them before we have the presentation. On item H, consent agenda, which is the $2,500 in kind services and resources for the Denton County Veterans Coalition stand down event. I know there was some discussion about that that's an event that some of those proceeds are to go to go to benefit the veterans coalition, the veterans organization. So I'm assuming that we got satisfactory answers as far as how much that's going to be and those kinds of things. Another planned event, this particular one, the stand down is put in. You're right. Yes, you're right. And nevermind. Yes, we're still working. Sorry. My mistake. That organization to get those. Okay, good. Thank you. Appreciate that. Thank you. I wish they all my answers, the answers could be that easy. In other words, Chris, you don't know what you're talking about. Okay, anything else? Any other clarifications of agenda items? All right. Make sure I don't have any more. Okay. Okay. Nope. All right, then we'll go into our work session reports. Work session 3A is received report from the Board of Ethics Chair, Jesse Davis, hold discussion give staff direction regarding the Board of Ethics rules and procedures. Mayor and Council Brian Langley, Deputy City Manager. As you know, we've been working on the rules or procedure for the Board of Ethics for the last few months. The last meeting that we had with you the last work session , there were several things that you asked the board to go back and review. So today we have Jesse Davis, who's going to review all the items that they discussed and provide to you his redline version of the changes compared to what you had last time. So that's an introduction, I'll ask Jesse to come up and go through those changes. Sure. Thank you. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. We last spoke as your staff report tells you on August 28th and at that time the council had some things you wanted the board to look at. There were enough concerns from council that it was worthwhile to send the rules procedure back to the board for further discussion on the questions that the council had. We did that and we also took the opportunity at our September 17th meeting to take up some additional things that members had heard from the community , things they had talked about with members of the community and things they'd be kind of working through on their own. So what you'll see in your staff report is a good bullet list of the changes you're going to see in the redline. I don't really want to go take your time with a line by line because some things, one of your bullet points in the staff report may equal a change that occurs in three or four places in the actual document, if that makes sense. So the very first thing you see in your staff report is there's a reference here in section one of, subsection one of section E to the subpoena power and to the limitations on subpoena. That just repeats something that's later on in the document , just like the mayor asked for. We also had some concerns at the last time I was before you about time limits. And you'll see in your redline version that's in your agenda packet, we clarified that the board can extend the time limits. Time limits are a guideline to help kind of effectively move things along, but if someone, a member of the board or the chair feels like we need to hear more from an individual or more from somebody on a topic, they can do that. They can ask for an extension of time. We also, in a couple of places, let's see if I can find the best one for you here. I'll skip to recusal since it's right in front of us. We simply changed a can to a shall and we're more specific about what kind of things a member shall recuse themselves for. This is very straightforward. It's exactly the kind of thing that you'd all wonder, well, why didn't they recuse themselves if they didn't? So we changed that from a can to a shall. Now here, this kind of spans a couple of pages, but under appearance of the parties, the first time you see reference to another thing we did in a few different places. On the advice of one of our board members, what we did was add a letter of dismissal. Anytime you get a complaint kicked out of the process, except for when the city auditor does not accept a complaint because it doesn't meet the, I guess, form requirements at the very beginning. Anytime a complaint leaves the process, a letter of dismiss al issues, and that is the board communicating to the person filing the complaint, here's why your complaint doesn't go further. Someone can then undertake a new complaint or they can accept the answer of the board at that point, and that's everywhere from right here where they don't show up for the hearing all the way through to there's a full preliminary hearing, there's a panel discussion, there's an appeal, the full board meets, and the full board dismisses your claim. So at any point in the process you get kicked out, you get an explanation why, and we thought that was a good addition. We also spoke at some length at the August 28th meeting about subpoenas, and the board's subpoena power, which the citizens asked for, which the ethics ordinance provided for, and then we're now charged with refining and implementing that subpoena power and defining the limits of that subpoena power. What does that mean and how does that subpoena, how do we make sure that subpoena is a tool for good use of the ethics ordinance and not something else ? So we thought it best to clarify in this section 11 for sub poenas exactly what the remedy is for failing to comply with the subpoena, and essentially that is the board can consider what the board can consider, it's explicitly laid out here. If you didn't comply with the subpoena, that's fair game for someone to argue on. Well, of course they didn't reply, look at my complaint. Or for the board to talk about in its deliberations, we thought that helped clarify the role of the subpoena and failure to comply with the subpoena in the board's deliberations. We also talked a little bit more about time limits in the context of witness testimony and the board's ability to question witnesses. We thought it was important in a board like this that the members, it's not just one judge making a determination like you'd have in court, and it's not a jury that goes back and deliberates in secret. We thought it would be worthwhile to have the members of the board in this situation ask questions of the witnesses and get further clarification. This is also a process that contemplates citizen accusers who may not be, may not have the sophistication of say an attorney or something, they may not be presenting their evidence in the best way. If a board member feels like, well, there's something to this, they're just not getting at it, a board member can ask those questions, and that's appropriate to the role of a board like this. So we added in that this would not, this kind of questioning would not take away from someone's time limits. A board member's not going to use up somebody's time limit to do that. Yes, I'm sorry, Council Member Hesbitt. Thank you. Can you speak to the other side of that tool being if I want to help someone, an accuser out, I can then ask questions, leading questions. If I'm on the ethics board and I think there's a fire there , I just need to fan it a bit, do you have thoughts or concerns about that being used in that way? So almost like a judge wouldn't rarely ask questions to try to not remain neutral. Does that make sense? Sure, it does. Two things in your comment there, your question there. One is the board functions differently from say a judge or even a jury in that it is investigating, it doesn't go out like a detective and dig things up, but the board is looking into things, that's the nature of these hearings, they're investigative, they're not prosecutorial, they're finding out what happened. So it's hard to do anything, we don't want to do anything to curtail that or to make board members feel like they shouldn't ask questions in the right situation, which is part of why we put this in there, so they don't feel like they're stepping on somebody's time to ask the questions. The flip side of your question is what if you've got a bad actor on the board? What if you've got somebody who is fanning flames when there's really not something there and they're trying to make something, helping something along that maybe doesn't need to be helped along? The rules are neutral to those kind of things. If someone wants to abuse that process or to grandstand something or make an ethics complaint more than what it ought to be, there's nothing that rules are going to do to prevent that. Conversely, like I said, we don't want to step on somebody on the board's ability to ask those questions. It's up to other members of the board, first it's up to the council to point trustworthy, good people. It's up to other members of the board to recognize that for what it is if it comes up. If one member is fanning the flames, well, he was really going after that. I can take that with a grain of salt and separate out what I heard. Other than that, you really start to limit the board's ability to investigate like it should. Does that help answer your question? Yes, sir. I would just hope that, like you said, the chair would almost keep everything in scope of the complaint versus allowing it to broaden so much. I think that helps me understand the intent. Sure. One of the fun parts about being chair of a group like this is it operates much the same way as a council meeting. Robert's rules and all that kind of stuff, but it also has this other function that's a little bit more like a court. The chair has to do is thread that needle and give people the ability to ask the questions, just like the mayor does any member of the council, but at the same time keep things in scope. The chair can't tell somebody on the board, "All right, you 're done. Sit down. You had enough." They're a co-equal member of the board, but the chair can suggest, "Well, member so-and-so, maybe you could tailor your questions a little bit closer." But the chair, other than keeping the meeting in order, I don't think the chair has the authority to shut down a line of questions. That's going to be up to the board to, like I say, take that with a grain of salt. Excellent. Thank you. Any other questions on that point, on witness testimony? Now, this section, I know it's a little tough to read because of the edit tracking, but this is what we talked the most about, I think, at your August 28th meeting. And after direction from council and hearing from citizens, in fact, some of the same folks you heard from at your meeting, we're also at our meeting. All of our meetings, of course, are open to the public. And we determined it was best to allow for what I'll call citizen representation. A non-attorney to represent someone in front of the board. However, one of the things that we kept in there that was pretty important was what a law professor of mine called the one horse, one rider rule. That you don't get to jump back and forth. You can't have, you know, the accuser, the complainant, they decide that they're going to start a line of questioning. It's not going so well. And then their citizen advocate or citizen representative jumps in and says, "Well, I'm going to do it now." You have to make a choice. The other thing it also doesn't let you do is if you are the complainant, you have a duty to testify. When you file that affidavit that says, "I know of an ethics violation," you've got to come in before the board and back that up and be subject to questioning and cross-convrimination. So it doesn't relieve the complainant of the duty to do that. Even if they have a helper, even if they -- whether it's a paid attorney or whether it's, you know, just a citizen advocate, they still have to appear before the board in person, detail what they put in their affidavit, and be subject to cross- examination on that or questions from the board. Are there any questions on this point? >> So just to clarify -- not to clarify, just to make sure I understood what you just said, that the complainant has a duty to publicly testify at the hearing. If they show up and they decide not to testify, is it the same effect as if they're not even there? In other words, if they don't testify, even though they're present, there's no evidence proffered, no testimony given, then it's as if they didn't show up? >> Procedurally, it's a little different than if they showed up. But essentially, yes, the ethics ordinance -- >> The outcome is the same? >> Yes, the outcome is the same. The ethics ordinance requires them to show up in person. And I mean, just my personal opinion, that's very prudent, that somebody can't file a piece of paper down at City Hall and make this whole process happen without coming forward and being clear, calling their witnesses, putting on whatever evidence. They don't have to bear the whole thing on their own shoulders, especially if it's a citizen whistleblower. But they do need to be able to back up what they say on paper. >> Okay. All right. I understand the difference. Thank you. Yes, Councilmember Meltzer. >> I'm fine with what the committee wants to do, but just kind of out of curiosity, why is that considered an important principle to not be able to send in a relief picture if, you know, the first one's having trouble? >> You mean not to -- what I kind of flip-flop called the one horse, one rider? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So there's a couple of things. One is it disrupts the process. If you've ever -- and I know we don't want this to be a court, but I'll use a court analogy. It's my wheelhouse. If you ever sat in a courtroom, you will almost never see the lawyer switch off because what it does is confuse the whole process. It turns things around. And what could happen in a -- you know, if you imagine two citizens, maybe folks who have never appeared before a board before, never had to have somebody taking down minutes of what they're saying, never had to testify in front of anybody, it can get twisted around very quickly to switch back and forth. The other thing that we don't want to do is transform -- speaking kind of more for myself here than I think the whole board, but is transform the intent of having a representative there with you, which is to help you out, to help you take your claim forward, your complaint forward. Remember, this is not a prosecutorial thing. This is a truth-finding thing. So the purpose of having a citizen advocate with you is to help you take the truth forward, to bring something to light that needs to be brought to light. It's not a time to badger or ping pong back and forth between a panel of people and a smaller panel of two people and just go back and forth and back and forth. And that's what you kind of invite when you allow that back and forth between the two people sitting at the table. Does that help answer your question? >> Yes, it makes sense. Thanks. >> Yep. >> All right. So that was the major -- we've hit the major points that the council asked us to look at. I'll mention just very briefly another mention of the letter of dismissal. And then also we added in at the very end, one, reconsider ation is an option that's allowed under the ordinance, but it was less clear under the rules of procedure. So we just added that in there, that if you want to have a decision reconsidered, you need to look to the code of ordinances. That's kind of in contemplation of something that may come before you in the future under section 30 amendments. The ethics ordinance asks the board of ethics to be continually looking at the ordinance itself and its own rules of procedure. If we see deficiencies or things that could be better, to come back to the council with recommendations. In section 30, we set that at a simple majority vote. It wasn't clear in the ordinance. What does it take? Does just a member of the board get to suggest things and then gets a spot on the council agenda or does the board as a whole need to put something forward as a recommendation? And so that's what we've done with section 30 is set ourselves a simple majority threshold for recommendations. I mentioned that in conjunction with number 28, reconsider ation, because there's currently not a good provision for what reconsideration means. If new evidence comes to light, somebody does their complaint, it gets kicked out at some level of process. Do we reconsider the process we just had or do we have them file a new complaint? At this point, their best option is to file a new complaint , start over from the beginning. But at some point, the board may ask you all to consider an amendment to the ordinance that would be a process for reconsideration, you know, within a timeframe. Ten days out, there's new information. Let's go back to the process we just had and not start all over again. >> Councilmember Malmertor. >> I was wondering if you could say a little bit more about the letter of dismissal. Is it written by the chair or is it a collaborative process ? And then if you could say something about how it becomes part of the public record, who receives physical copies, et cetera. So in the ordinance itself, there are a number of things that issue from the board or issue from the city auditor's office. The city auditor has certain duties of when to send things out to individuals and then the board has a duty to put things out, like the letter of dismissal is a good example. It will depend on the board itself, the chair and the board , the panel. If it's just a three-member panel that's doing the dismiss al, it may be the chair of that panel. They elect their own presiding officer for each preliminary hearing. So they may be the one that drafts the letter of dismissal. I imagine it will have kind of a stock format after a couple of them that is very straightforward. It's not going to lay out a whole recital of facts, you know. Here's all the ways you went wrong. It's just going to say here's the reason. So there are some things, you mentioned other documents, but there are some things that go, like I said, through the city auditor. There's no reason why the letter of dismissal shouldn't follow the same procedure. And in the ordinance, there are things that go to the complainant, the accused, the city secretary and the city attorney's office in different group ings. So the letter of dismissal should go to those same folks. As far as matter of public record, once a complaint under the ordinance stays confidential, the fact that a complaint has been filed stays confidential until it hits an agenda. When it hits an agenda, we trigger the open meetings act and that becomes public, which is the nature of these hearings, that they become public at that point. So a letter of dismissal, I believe, would fall under that also. That would be public information. Thank you. Quick question. On section 30, maybe some additional kind of language in that last sentence that I'm not sure. It says rules of procedure to the city council. Is it by a simple majority vote? It just says that, should that be, in other words, you're saying a simple majority vote by the Board of Ethics. So is that -- oh. My light's off. So it's saying the Board of Ethics may recommend blah, blah , blah to the city council. So that's the way it works. So I'm going to go ahead and ask the question. I'm going to go ahead and ask the question. 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So we really wanted to make sure that we could meet needs through the year 2030 if we do anything on the facility and meet some of the recommended design standards. Of course, we're an internal service fund and we're here to serve our customers. And to do that, we need to be able to decrease our work order time and increase fleet availability and that's kind of what we're working towards. We looked at centralized versus decentralized in terms of where we put the shop, do we expand our current shop, do we build a shop out of another site that the city currently owns or do we go and look at land somewhere? So we looked at some of those options. Of course centralized is going to be the most cost effective for us, we feel. And then maintaining consistent repair rates and cost operations. I'm always a little bit conservative when it comes to those kind of things. I know it's all city money and taxpayer money, but we want to make sure that we maintain our rates. It's important to me internally to be able to track our equipment cost and to know exactly when it's time to replace those pieces of equipment. And of course the biggest thing is to minimize service delivery disruptions. So the pros is that we do remain centralized in this type of situation and the biggest con here is going to be the disruption of service. So we do have some -- it's a tight space out there at the service center. Most of you have been to the shop to visit and so you know what that looks like. We're also working with the group looking at the parking situation out there in terms of the whole facility and how this would play into that. And you'll see a picture of that in just a minute. >> Councilmember Riggs has a question. >> Yes, ma'am. >> I have a few, but I'll just start with this one. What is the percentage of public safety vehicles that you work on? >> With police and fire added together, that number is going to be close to 300 units I would think total. >> And when those are in service, it's probably more important to get those in, they go ahead so they can get back. >> Those are top priority vehicles for sure. >> Okay. Thank you. >> And we always have to prioritize and priorities change on a daily basis, but certainly they are top priority. So this is just an area of view showing the layout for the footprint of the proposed 12-bay expansion at the north end of the shop and some of the parking limitations that we currently have, like I said, we are working with the design group to see how we can reorganize that area a little bit, maybe even expand it to give us a little additional parking. Certainly it's going to be tight there during the construction process if we were to move forward, but we're going to try to look at a couple of other things in order to minimize the disruption of service there, which I'll talk about in just a moment. So the cost estimation is based on a June 2018 estimate from Nelson Morgan for the design construction of the facility is about 2.8. This is for 12 bays. And everything on here came from Nelson Morgan, with the exception of the FF&E, that's a number that Philippe put in there, to outfit the additional 12 bays with two-linion equipment. The total cost of construction per square foot is $198. And realize that 12 bays, this is service area, this doesn 't include any office area, any additional break areas, restroom, any of that. That's already part of the facility. We don't need to expand that. As well as the parts area. So we have all that fixed in the building. This is total 12 bays of just repair space that we're looking at. That would bring our bated technician ratio up to 1.7. The reason that you need additional bays than tax is because you're always going to have jobs down waiting on parts. And unless you roll those out of the shop every day and roll them back in when the parts come in, it's just more efficient to have a little bit of additional space to have some units down. So quick question on this. And if you have it in a slide coming up, just let me know. Because I'm trying to understand the cost here. So is it my understanding that the expansion is simply -- that these service bays, I'm not going to say are just because I don't mean it that way, but trying to understand the degree of finish out required and the construction. So my understanding is it's obviously a slab that will handle all the weight of the vehicles. Do y'all have hydraulic lifts built into each bay or is it just a flat surface they come in? It's a flat surface. So there's no hydraulic lifts that you see in some car repair places where they lift them up. No, on the heavy side of the shop we do have lifts, but they're portable lifts. Portable, okay. Yes, sir. And so this is probably a metal frame building I would think steel because you've got long expanses that -- it's depth and things. That's true. HVAC included -- is it heated and cooled? It's heated but not cooled. Heated but not cooled. Not cooled yet. Okay. Yeah. Well, and it probably has some plumbing for your restroom facility in here or no? Not as part of this expansion. Okay. I would like for us to look at -- I mean, that just seems -- and I know it's a cost estimate, but yeah, that just seems really high. Basically what I'm hearing you say is you've got a slab floor probably six inches thick or something like that, four to six inches depending on the beam, grade beams. A steel frame, some siding, whether it be -- I don't know, what do you have out there? Is it just that aluminum, that metal siding on the side with insulation? None of the building. These are poured walls. They're tilt wall construction. They're tilt wall. I'm sorry. Tilt wall. Okay. All right. Yeah, so that -- okay. So there are 12 large overhead bay doors. Right. Those are all electric. And as part of this too, there's an overhead crane that services that. Sure. It's like a five-ton crane that has to be on gantries and that kind of thing. Like a control that people can move it back and forth to lift things out. Yes, sir. To lift heavy things. Okay. One thing -- you're asking -- this is a 12-bay expansion, and right now it's 15 -- is it 15 bays? We have 15 total bays. So almost doubling it. Nearly. Yeah. And so some of that is for -- because I think you said one and a half bays per technician. Per tech. So that's about seven and a half or seven or something like that. So you're adding some on for growth beyond 2030 to, you know -- We definitely want to meet the growth projections to 2030 and hopefully beyond that. Right. I mean, that's only 11 years, which isn't long in my lifetime. Sure. Sure. Yes. We want to meet those as long as we can. You bet. Okay. Councilmember Briggs. When you're talking about the future of vehicles, some vehicles are changing, and they're rapidly changing different types of gas, electric and non. So when you're talking about hiring and adding more bays, are you preparing for the future and the different types of vehicles that we may get into our fleet, or are we just preparing for the same type of vehicles that we have now? Well, we're looking at probably the same type of vehicles that we have now up to this point. Technology does change at a rapid rate, and the size of vehicles do change. That's where we're fortunate in that this original shop was well designed to accommodate large vehicles. So the fire apparatus and the refuse trucks, everything fits in it very well where a lot of the other shops are designed , they don't accommodate that. So we feel that this design will accommodate pretty much anything that we're going to get in the fleet. What is the average year vehicle that you service? I think our average vehicle age right now is between six and a half and seven years, but I would have to actually look that number up to be certain on that. Okay. We did do an estimated five-year performance just to make sure that we were able to accommodate the funding for this vehicle within our current rate structure, and you can see the total projected changes at the bottom that basically is what the change to adding this addition on. That's the difference to our budget right there. So the capital projections and the debt service, that's all added into our total expenditures up at the top part. And we do show hopefully a slow building up of our fund balance. We are going to take $750,000 out of our fund balance to fund the beginning part of this project, the design cost and some of the initial construction cost so that we can get the project moving. And the reason for that slow buildup is basically to continue making modifications as needed. We are looking ahead at possibly relocating the fuel island at some point, so we're trying to build funding for that so that we can cash fund some of those things. Go ahead. Go ahead. Councilmember Melzer. I don't know if this is the appropriate time in your presentation, but would you mind tracing for us the differences between what was budgeted and what's being presented now? Well, we had a budget number in mind. We started this process about here in 2014 when we first got C&G vehicles into the fleet, and we were looking back then at just adding a couple of bays to service those vehicles out of. So it went from a two-bay expansion, then we looked at economies of scale. That became four-bay expansion. At the time, we really couldn't fund it and keep our current rate structure. We just didn't have the debt fund capacity to do that. But we're at the point now where we're paying off our current building, so that's where this debt funding payback is going to come from. So we were looking at 2.3 to 2.5 million is what we had originally thought this project was going to cost. And, you know, we missed the mark on the first one because it was a lot more than what we thought it was going to be just for two bays. So we did look at some other options, and this actually in terms of cost per square foot or number of service bays we could add made the most sense to us. So just to be crystal clear, you're not looking for additional funding to do this. You're doing it out of what you would have applied to debt service. Correct. This is capitalized. Yeah. We're funded, but we have that capacity to repay that. I have a sort of ignorant question if I can ask another one . Would there be any benefit at this point when you're building new, if you're not going to have a draw cleft, and I know you're dealing with super heavy equipment to build in the ground bays like you would have at a commercial service center like a Jiffy Lube? Well, there's two schools of thought on that. Those can become kind of a repair nightmare because all the hydraulics are underground. So you have to dig big pits to put those in, and they do consume quite a bit of hydraulic fluid. Then when you have leaks, you've got some issues underground with those. I wasn't clear. I said instead of hydraulics, build sort of an underground place where you can -- Oh, the inspection pits. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I misunderstood. We already actually have two inspection pits in the current facility that are used on a daily basis. So we don't really feel like we're going to need another one for this expansion, but we are going to -- part of that $ 110,000 in FFE is for additional sets of lifts, vehicle lifts, portable lifts. Council Member Briggs, do you have a question? If not, that's okay. You look like you -- I thought I saw you raise your hand. Well, not really. I'm just -- it's $2.8 million, and there's no AC. So I'm just kind of wondering what the -- I'm looking at the materials here and the -- is it just the labor and the concrete? Is that -- It's construction costs. Okay. As far as I know, it's all construction costs, except for the $110,000, which is FFE. I mean, I'd love to put AC in it. That would entice technicians to come to work for us, but I 'm sure there's an additional charge for that. Go ahead. Have you asked or do you know how much that would be? I have not, but we have had that discussion, and I think it merits a little bit more study, actually. There aren't that many shops this size air conditioned, so I can't really go and kind of get a feel for how that was done and who's done it. Councilmember Malmertor. So just to clarify, so according to the estimated schedule, in June of next year, the hope is that the bids will come before us for consideration, so that'll be -- so this is not our last opportunity to -- No, no, not at all. All I'm asking for today is to provide a little bit of feedback on our proposed expansion and get some direction on how you feel we should go, and, you know, there are some options to consider, for sure. But speaking of the estimated schedule, if it's okay, I'll just kind of go through this real quick, but yeah, design phase in December, permit review in February, and bids to council in June of 2019, so hopefully we could begin construction in September, and I know that that's probably wishful, but this was developed through our facilities management. We've been working with them on this, as well as Nelson Morgan, so they've helped us develop all these. So basically that's what I had, the options. Proceed with what we're wanting to do here. Maintain status quo. We don't have to do anything, although our efficiency is going to suffer for that, and eventually our customer service is going to suffer, or we could look at some other alternative options. So I have a couple of questions back on the financial budget slide. You got that one there. So your -- is this the fleet services department? This is fleet. Only fleet. Only fleet. So that's what we're talking about. And that's an internal fund where all the different departments -- so when I see the total revenues, those are the revenues from the transfers. The charges in. The transfers is what we charge our customers for, the service we provide. And then of course the expenditures are the expenditures including your capital funding, your debt service, is that correct? That's true. So help me understand in years 22 to 23, 23, 24, and really maybe 21 through 24, I see the fund balance is beginning to increase fairly substantially based upon the revenue. Like at the year -- at 23, 24, it's about 5%. So if this is an internal fund, help me understand the policy of that kind of fund balance on that. Well, I think there would be two issues. The first one is we need to discuss if there's any sinking funds that he's trying to accumulate to pay cash to avoid issuing debt. The second one is we really haven't had -- I really want to have Tony put their way in on this. Unless there was some good reason that we were trying to avoid issuing debt out in years four and five, I probably wouldn't support a fund balance that high. But it's something that you -- it's something that we manage each year depending on what we're seeing in the future, what kind of cash outlays might be necessary. But from an internal service fund perspective, I want to sit down with Tony and look at those last years and really have a long discussion about whether we would need rates to reca pture that or if we should be looking at lowering the rates. Right now it's just kind of a plan. It's a budget. It's just a budget right now, very high level. Okay. So then back to your point that if it was part of the reason for that was that, well, we don't want to have that much fund balance, let's take the end year, 1.7 million. What I'm hearing you say is, yeah, there's probably some level of fund balance you may want to show on -- because this is really budget. It is on paper. It's not necessarily an account somewhere that's got that money in it. Right. Then if you said, well, we only need 200,000 or 300,000 or 400,000, well, then the rest could be to cash fund part of this construction project to avoid that. Is that sort of what you're saying that might be -- Yeah, exactly. We haven't had the chance to sit down with Tony and kind of go through all the details. But unless there was really something outstanding that we 're not thinking of, it's highly unlikely we would support a fund balance that high. Okay. So the question is a little premature based upon just your analysis. It is, yeah. He's just showing you very high level what would happen. We could certainly look at some cash in lieu of debt, depending on where the rates are. No, I just was curious. I saw that. Just curious. And the reason for that increase is because as we move along, we're going to be adding technicians for those bays, and then, of course, that's -- every technician you add is additional revenue. And like this year, we reduced some of our rates to our customers. So that's an opportunity to do that. And just to piggyback on the mayor's question, we've been going through this analysis with all the internal service funds, particularly when it comes to acquiring land or acquiring equipment, whatever it might be, project funding, and trying to set these fund balances at a rate that we're all comfortable with. My intention in the next year's budget, as we're working our way through these, is to bring something back to you in terms of just the overall fund balance policies for all the internal service funds. So I know it's a little bit ancillary to this conversation, but since it spooked you a little bit, I wanted to let you know where we're going. Now, that's quite an editorial comment. It's a big number. I wasn't spooked. I was just curious. Okay. Mayor Potem. On your cons list, you listed relocating the sewer line, the storm sewer? Yes, you can see that large red line that kind of dissects the proposed addition. That's the current storm drain, which I don't think they're going to allow to have underneath the facility. So that would have to be rerouted. In the overall scheme of things, I don't think that's a huge issue, but it is something we would have to deal with. Do you have any ideas? Is that included in the 1.7, and if so, about how much? You know, we did put some contingency in there, but that was a guess on our part. So there is some money in that number for that, but we don 't have exact cost estimate on it. And then, if I might, brought to mind, to address the disruption of service issue, we are working with facilities in solid waste at a two-bay shop that's already on their facility, on their site that's vacant, to see what it would take to get a couple of technicians to work out of those two bays in the interim while this facility is being built. That would give us room. It would help them out as well. We could do some light repairs and minor repairs instead of them shuttling vehicles back and forth. So we are gathering cost estimates currently to see what would take to staff that facility out there as an interim measure. Okay. All right. So you're looking for direction on your proposal as far as those three options proceed as presented, maintain the status quo, or find some other alternative. Or some other option that I haven't listed there. Sure. Councilmembers? Yes, Councilmember Armitage. So I propose proceeding with the understanding that as far as specific budget questions, that will all come before us when the RFPs -- when we get to see that whole process. Excuse me. One thing I'd like to suggest, and this is not an alternative option, but something to happen along the way, is that staff who use vehicles in each department be surveyed in some way on what they see as the pros and cons with what we call here the status quo as far as vehicle maintenance. And I mention this because I know that when we -- as an example, when we had the audit of solid waste, one big issue as far as costs and lost costs and also time had to do with fleet, not just purchasing, but also maintenance. And what we heard, what came out of that audit from staff was very specific and very useful. And I'm sure that that's already incorporated into this. And I just don't know if every department has had that opportunity to survey the people who use the vehicles on what their issues are. So that would be -- I can't see the harm and only the benefit in that. I think that could be easily done. We can craft a survey and send out to all of our customers and gather those results. Thank you. Councilmember Briggs? I would prefer to see the bays at the solid waste facility stay open regularly and then maybe reduce this one by a couple or three and look for one -- look to integrate AC into the facility in which you're proposing the expansion. I think that maybe if we reduced a couple of bays, that could go towards the AC. And then we would have the solid waste facility and that way you're not losing time transferring those trucks back, as you said. And then you could keep the two -- or keep your technicians out there and then hire some more for this one. And then that way it would free up those bays for more public safety vehicles and other vehicles. And then you keep the solid waste ones where -- Some of them. Yeah, we can't service the whole solid waste from two bays, but certainly we could do so. That would be my preference. Okay. So to understand that -- so the two bays out at solid waste , the proposal was -- in the presentation was to basically move all that servicing over to these 12 and shut those down? At the end of the construction period, we actually are contemplating using those two bays for the landfill equipment. So currently we go out on site as a field service tech and service those units outside. But anything that could be brought under cover would certainly be helpful to our technician out there. Yeah. And so at the end of that two-year period, which was originally -- my understanding, it wasn't here, but what that shop was built for. It's not really built to handle solid waste trucks, per se, but we could make it work in the interim. Well, I certainly don't have an issue with giving direction to move forward on the 12. I think that I sort of concur with Councilmember Briggs that I'd like to be able to see, you know, what an AC -- even if maybe in -- not some of it, but how much it would cost. I mean, if you're looking at $226,000 a bay, certainly if you lop off one bay, we'd better be able to get that AC for -- the pricing is what I'm a little more just curious about when it comes forward. And so there may be a way that we can get both. Sure. We can get it within the budget or something like that. I would certainly -- I would recommend exploring some of those options. Okay. Yeah. Because I think most of these types of bays are not air conditioned. They are heated. They're heated, but not air conditioned. Yeah. Just big fans or something like that. Our technicians would be fans of that. Yeah. All right. Yes, Councilmember Briggs. I have been in there on a tour before, and it gets really warm, especially in the summertime, and so anything that we could do to help make them a little bit more comfortable while they're working, I'm in favor of. Appreciate that. Yes, Councilmember Roberts. Yeah. And I support that as well, the air conditioning idea. And I wanted to add -- and that reminded me that adding the technicians to those being surveyed would be a good idea too. Sure. Okay. And so I guess the challenge with both heating and cooling is just the frequency in which the doors are opened and closing because you got vehicles coming in. So I understand that. And it's a challenge. And we'll just seek your guidance and expertise on the costs and things on doing that. Yeah. Okay. All right. Anything else? Yes. Yes, go ahead, Councilmember Nelson. Yeah. Concur with what's been said. I can't imagine -- it keeps you very efficient if you're, you know, on your back on a dolly and your eyes are filling up with sweat while you're trying to work. It's got to interrupt your productivity at some point. Okay. I'm curious a little bit going back to your response on the question about inspection bays. You know, I think this is so great and logical, you know, that you're preparing for growth and that, you know, this is a kind of a for want of a nail, the war was lost kind of thing. Like, we want to be investing to keep other operations up by keeping your operation going. But, you know, wouldn't you assume that you're -- whatever 's filling up those two inspection bays would be growing too? Well, one of them is on the heavy side, and that certainly could be a possibility. And I wouldn't be opposed to looking at the cost of adding a pit. At the time that those were installed, a lot of the regulations have changed, but I know that they still do put them in some maintenance facilities. I'm not sure it's a common practice anymore, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to checking into it. Just for your consideration. Yeah. Thank you. Anything else? Yes, Mayor Husserl. Just briefly. No, I think absolutely in favor of moving forward, understanding it's been contemplated since 2014, you know, and I think that growth is coming. And I'd love to get in front of that or at least draw even. Yeah, I -- the AC does give me a little heartburn just because, I mean, you -- the doors are open, so you're, you know, you're air conditioning outside. I don't know that it has a desired effect. I would like to see you, like, as you touched on, reach out to people and see what else they're doing and kind of come back with some different ideas. I think there's -- I'm certain there's a fix or a -- if it's fans like at football stadiums, you know, so the fans are air conditioned and then blowing cool air that way, if that has a different level of efficiency. But I think there's a fix for that, but I don't know that true AC is it. Right. I'm interested in seeing what you come back with. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. I can cut. Anybody else? Thank you very much. Thank you for your time. Appreciate it. Thank you, Tony. Appreciate that. All right, we'll move on now back to agenda item B, which is receive a report, hold discussion, give staff direction regarding the possibility of creating a tourism public improvement district in Denton. Yes, sir. And I believe the person we were waiting on is outside, so just wanted to make sure everybody is aware of that. Mayor and Council Brian Langley, Deputy City Manager. We wanted to come forward and talk to you about the possibility of creating a public improvement district for tourism. We have some special guests with us today. Zach Glenn is a hotelier here in the city of Denton, and we also have Kim Phillips and Scott Joselab. I believe he's just coming in, is with the Texas Hotel Association. So they're going to go through a presentation, and at the conclusion of that I'll come back and try to get some direction from Council on how you'd like to proceed. So with that, I'll ask Zach to come up and present. Thank you, Deputy City Manager. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Council, for listening to us. Mr. City Manager, we met with him about a week or so ago, and so we thank you for your time. We're very excited about this. As a tourism community, as you can see, we have a rather large gallery here that wants to talk to you about this. A few names that weren't quite mentioned there. We have Todd Meelenberg from the Director of Sales of the Embassy Suites. We also have Bob Moses, who is the owner and operator of Beth Marie's Ice Cream. He's also the Board Chair of the Commission and Visitor Bureau Board of Directors. So today we're going to present you just a little bit of information on a tourism public improvement district and why Denton needs one. We will also end up asking for Council's direction on how to proceed. So let's just get started and talk about a tourism public improvement district and why Denton needs one. Well, a tourism public improvement district is basically a tool that creates additional funding to draw conventions and other tourism back into the city without creating a new hot tax, without raising property taxes or any other funding mechanism that might be used to draw tourism back into the city. It's basically free money for the city that's raised by hotels. To get one, the cities must be authorized by the Texas Legislature to create a tourism public improvement district. We will ask for a Council directive who will review and approve the tourism public improvement district budget on an annual basis and the assessment rate at which the hotels assess this. And what basically we're looking at is increasing marketing , increasing incentives, and additional research of what works, what does not work. So let's talk a little bit about the city of Denton and why we believe Denton needs one. Council Member Briggs had a question. Can you go back to the last slide? Sure. So is this all City Council reviews and approves? Is that the only thing that the City Council will do for this district? I believe that will be done on an annual basis. We will need additional Council directive getting this started. But each year the Council will be able to review and approve the budget that is conceived by Board of Directors on an annual basis. So if we needed to do more, we could. This is just what we are required to do per the state. Okay. Thank you. So it's no surprise more cities are building convention centers. The landscape for competition is growing larger and larger every year. We have new convention centers opening online in Texas this next year. We also have several new convention centers that will come up on the state legislature for approval with certain incentives there. We also have over 20,000 new bedrooms coming in -- hotel rooms coming into the Dallas Fort Worth Market in 2019. That is an astronomical amount. That is a crazy amount of hotel rooms that are coming into just our area. We also have a limited amount of funding that our tourism budget can be used. We had to draw these conventions and tourists into our area . So that's a little bit of a challenge for us as we're trying to draw that business back into our city. Can I ask you a quick question on that? Well, no, I'll tell you what. Go down. You're going to show us who all is coming? Okay. Yes, sir. Let's look at this. Yes, sir. The first tourism public improvement district was created in 2011 by the city of Dallas. An extension bill was drafted in 2015 which allowed the cities of Fort Worth, San Antonio, Austin, and Arlington to create these tourism public improvement districts. Only two of those are currently active. That would be Fort Worth and Arlington. San Antonio is just on the cusp of creating theirs, and Austin is still discussing with their hotel leaders and their city council on making theirs active. Dallas is active as well. Yeah, that's correct. Plus, Fort Worth and Arlington are the only three that are active at this time. The 2019 legislative session will also see an additional list of cities that are wanting to put a tourism public improvement district in effect. Those would be Frisco, which I will let you note that just last week their city council did make a resolution to move forward with this coming in the next legislative session. Other cities include Irving, Allen, Amarillo, and Waco, and these are all cities that the city of Denton competes with, with trying to draw convention centers back into the market . And as I already mentioned, our tourism budget is somewhat limited in drawing these conventions. These cities all have a higher amount of money that's already going into this. So if we don't do this, we're going to fall further behind. So let's take a look at unless there's any questions. Question on that. Yes, sir. So help me understand. So I understand the desire for this. And part of the argument is it helps us with competition. Let's just say these lists that you have up here now, they don't have them. They don't have the tourism pids, I guess, or what do they call it? T-pids? T-pid. So right now we're competing with them sort of one on one, just as all of our budgets stand, which what you're reporting is that we sort of are at a competitive disadvantage. So if they all implement these, which I'm looking at -- now I don't know about Amarillo. It's bigger than us. Waco, not that big. But Frisco, Irving Allen, those are big cities that their funds are going to -- their T-pids are probably going to dwarf ours, I mean, based upon -- depending on assessments. So I don't know if it's -- I mean, I don't have an issue with this on its face, but from a competitive perspective, I think we're still just going to be put in the same place as far as, yeah, we'll have additional money, but so will they. And that's not an unfair estimate on your part. I think one thing that is good for the city is that we do have 26 hotels. That is a rather large amount for a city this size. Right. And that will actually grow next year by additional two. So we do have a good amount of hoteliers already in the city. So for what we're proposing, it's my belief that we will at least be somewhat more competitive than probably -- if you're looking at population size of these cities, I think where we're at, this actually makes a lot of sense in moving this forward. So you're saying from a per capita basis, the per capita being measured on hotel rooms -- Correct. -- that because we have more hotel rooms maybe per capita than some of these others, it might increase our competitive edge just because of that scenario? That is my belief. Okay. All right. Yes, Council Member Briggs. So on the side from what I can gather is just because the city is added to the extension bill and is listed, it doesn't necessarily mean it goes directly and it gives you a little bit of time. So this is just to get our city added and then everything else can follow. Is that -- That's absolutely correct. As we noted, the extension bill allowed for San Antonio and Austin, that was three years ago, and they're still working through that process of getting theirs funded. Fort Worth and Arlington were a little bit quicker. We can go as fast or we can go as slow as the city would like. But that's an excellent question. Thank you. So we're going to move on to how this would work. I apologize. We're going to look at how this did work in the city of Dallas. And again, this is the only tourism public improvement district that we have firm data from just because they've been around the longest. They were the first. And Mr. Joselove over there was paramount in getting this started. So if there are any questions pertaining to Dallas, I'm sure he'd be able to answer them for you. But they almost doubled the conversion rate. Now, I want to be clear with what the word conversion means . And that's basically they spent money to go out and find conventions, tourism avenues, anything like that. And then that was booked successfully. And then the money brought back in. So this was an active amount of money that was gone out, invested in tourism and brought back in. So that was from 23 to 41 percent on the confirmed bookings of this back into the market. They doubled the number of citywide conventions, the city wide occupancy rose by 16 percent. To me as a hotelier, that's very attractive. And for every dollar that the tourism public improvement district spent in marketing and incentives, 16 dollars was returned. Councilmember Meltzer. I'll put on my just spending a minute on the conversion rate. So what's in the numerator and what's in the denominator? And then what were the tactics that were so effective? I'm going to have to defer to Scott Jocelye, president of the T.H.L.A. for that. Sure. Come on up. State your name and give your address, please, Scott. Thank you. My name is Scott Jocelye and I'm president and CEO of the Texas Hotel and Lodging Association. I'm also general counsel for all the tourism districts that are in existence in Dallas, Fort Worth and Arlington. My address is 1701 West Avenue, Austin, Texas, 787-01. Conversion rate generally refers to, in simple terms, the ability to book a business that you bid on. So typically in Texas, most CVBs in major communities book about 21 to 24 percent of the bids they put out. In other words, they get back about one in four bids that they put out is converted into actual business. In Dallas, they had a conversion rate of 23 percent. They got about one in four. Now they have a conversion rate of, I think, is it 41 percent? 41 percent. Yeah, 41 percent. So it nearly doubled their conversion rate. It doubled the number of city-wides. And this is business that is not just seen in the downtown segment. It created compression throughout the entire city, so their occupancy rate increased by about 16 percent. So it's booked conventions as a percent of bids. That's helpful. And what was the super tactic that drove that? Having me as general counsel. No doubt. No doubts. Yes. But beyond that, beyond that superlative legal advice, it was -- what the magic of these tourism districts is, and we learned this from other states that adopted it before Texas did, is that it is a board of directors that's composed solely of the stakeholder hotels within the district. They know exactly when their need markets are. When is the shoulder season? When is low season? When are they already busy? What type of marketing has been effective? What niche markets they want to try? And they are so good at figuring that out. And the beauty is they have an ROI that they start with. Like in Dallas, they required a 10 to 1 ROI. And they don't spend a single dollar unless that proposal has that $10 in room nights for every dollar they have in incentives that they're going to spend. So they don't feel a pressure to spend it or the money will go away. They only spend it if they have a good opportunity to make a big difference in terms of the economic activity in the community. This got unanimous approval by the city council. They just renewed it for a 13-year renewal term. And basically those hoteliers know where they need to invest those funds. And they're very shrewd and very careful. They put about 45% in Dallas into marketing. So they try to bump up what they're able to do in transient marketing. And that's for visitors and leisure tourism. They put about 45% into sales efforts to bring citywide from the smallest group to the largest citywide convention. And then about 5% is spent on research to assess are they spending the money in the right places? How did that change the media impression and the likelihood people would come? I just heard -- I was at the Dallas T-PID board meeting this morning. They talked about this research they're doing that can literally help us understand exactly who's coming based on what ads and where are they going and which hotels and how did it influence. And it's unbelievable if you have the resources to go ahead and look at those issues. So you get the maximum ROI from every dollar that you spend . >> Councilmember Briggs. >> Does the board have to be the hotels that are within the district? >> In all the tourism public improvement districts, typically the format is that it is the stakeholder hotels. It's the same as -- I don't know if you -- do you have a downtown public improvement district here? >> In most of our cities in Texas and particularly the five largest, they have a downtown public improvement district and again it's property owners within the district. And the theory is that in order to do a public improvement district, you legally -- if you assess the best western plus hotel, $10,000 is their annual assessment as part of that district. You have to be able to show by the end of the year, $10,000 in value or they have a legal right to petition to have their assessment lowered. The theory of a public improvement district is we're going to assess ourselves and the district is formed under the idea of everybody is self-assessed, but everybody has a right to opt out of the district or to ask that their assessment be lowered if they don't provide that value. That's why having the board of directors solely composed of the stakeholders is so important. And then you have that check and balance where every year when they develop that budget, that budget then goes back to the city council. The city council reviews the budget and makes sure that it 's in line with the service plan because the first step is that we would create a service plan, which would be let's say for a 10-year period of time and develop a petition. And we would provide that petition saying here's how we basically want to spend the money. If it was like Dallas or Fort Worth and your district and your service plan will be unique for Denton to make sure it addresses what Denton thinks is best for its community in terms of promoting hotel activity. But if you did 45 percent for marketing, 45 percent for sales, 5 percent for research, 5 percent for administration , that would be the overall budget and the tourism district could not deviate from that budget over that 10-year period . Those are the parameters. It's kind of like passing a bond covenant. Once you pass that bond covenant to build a swimming pool and a rec center, that's all you can use the money for. It's the same with the tourism district. You have set purposes under state law. The petition and the service plan set out which of those purposes under state law you're going to pursue. And that is your plan for the period of time for the district. And then when it goes back to council, council will look and say, all right, this is the allocation we approved in the service plan. They brought us the petition with over 60 percent of the stakeholders, the hotels that all signed on it. You hold two public hearings and give notice to all of the hotels and you determine whether or not it's beneficial to have that type of district. If you approve it, then we come back once a year to you with the draft budget in line with the service plan. And then you voted up or down as to whether or not you feel that that budget accomplishes what the service plan had outlined. And then you set typically like Dallas has had the district for six or seven years now. And the assessment rate doesn't change because the theory in this sort of district is it's typically two percent of whatever the total sales are for a hotel in San Antonio. It's going to be one and a quarter percent because they have a higher tax rate at the start. All the other districts are two percent. So is the board required to be the hotels that are in the district by the state? State law doesn't set out who can be on the board of directors. It would be very hard to get the ownership groups of hotels to agree to a tourism district unless they felt like they would have a strong role in determining. I mean, if they're going to self assess, they would want to be like all the other tourism districts that they've signed on, not only in Texas, but in the other states in the country. So that's kind of the format that it doesn't have to be that way. But if it wasn't that way, I think it would be hard to get over 60 percent of typically a public improvement district only requires 50 percent of all the property owners to participate. This type of district, we went to the legislature and even agreed to a higher threshold. So it's very difficult. Even with all the support that we have in Denton, we have to still go to the ownership groups, whether it's a real estate investment trust or a brand or a management company. We have to get over 60 percent of all those properties to agree. And so that's a pretty key and crucial element of that structure. Depending on and that that's if they have 75 beds or more, right? Or it or not, even if they have less than they still have to agree. Well, no, you take the population of who the stakeholders are. In this case, it'd be hotels with 75 rooms or more. Then you'd have to get whatever that number is. There's three criteria. You have to get two out of the three. The one that criteria that is mandatory, you have to get over over 60 percent of the appraised value of all of those hotels with 75 rooms or more. So if the appraised value of all those hotels was was 10 million dollars, then you would have to get over 60 percent or over six million of the value. That's the mandatory criteria. Then you have to get one of two other criteria is over 60 percent of the count of hotels. In other words, if you have 13 hotels that fit in that, what is it? 17 hotels that fit in that category? Seventeen. So you'd have to get over 60 percent of 17. And I'm not particularly good at math. Ten. Thank you. So you'd have to get 10 or more of those hotels. See, we bring people that are smarter than us that to help us with our weaknesses. So you'd have to get that or over 60 percent of the surface area of hotels. And that's basically including the land, basically the lot size, including the building in the lot. You take the surface area of all those hotels and you could get over 60 percent of that. Typically, we try to get all three criteria to meet all of them. Mayor Pro Tem. OK. Councilmember Archer. Yeah. Will this tax increase or fee increase for the hotels apply also to extended stay hotels and some of the hotels that that service, you know, low, low income people who are using for housing? Thank you for asking. That's a very important question. I should have clarified with the way we structured these in Texas. Is that it applies in exactly the same circumstance that the local hotel tax applies. So for a extended stay property, probably 70 to 85 percent of their businesses is over 30 days stays and they're exempt from hotel tax. So in the other districts that we find, they pay they don't assess much in tourism, public improvement districts, because most of their business is all over 30 day business. So if the hotel tax doesn't apply, which for extended stay properties, it generally does not, then the tourism PID fee would not. It would only apply to business that is under 30 days. Thanks. Thank you. Councilmember Hoseb. Loosely related question. What is so there's a myriad of factors. I'm curious. I'll be candid. I'm curious about the Dallas numbers just because I think the latest renovation kind of coincides with the uptick in numbers. But I may be a year or so off, but I think when they updated the convention center and that it lines up with those numbers. But I'm still researching that. But my question for you is there it looking at conversion. It's an imperfect science. But what do you find to be the if you had to list one issue thought practice that tips the scales that you that you've noticed. What would that be? Honestly, it's the leadership of the local hotel years when they are there and collectively looking at the wisdom that they bring I attend all the board meetings, and the wisdom that they bring on on marketing and on window incentivize business. It's also valuable when you set out an ROI before you even start, where it's not here's our budget we're going to spend this, you know, you know, either way, every year, they don't feel any pressure to spend it they had and they 're looking at budget expenditures, not for this coming year but basically for business in year two, three through 10 years from now. So having that flexibility saying here is a funding mechanism itself assessed, and you don't need to spend it in fact we're not going to spend it until we show this mandatory ROI, and they are constantly amending what the criteria are to make sure they get more bang for the buck. They're learning from the process. I will tell you that the convention center expansion happened a couple years earlier prior to that and there's certainly all kinds of upticks you can look at, but what I like to think about is the fact that no matter how they spend the money whatever other factors. If you're getting over a $10 and room night for every dollar. No matter what the criteria you're doing awfully darn well and better than anywhere across the nation that I'm aware of in terms of a destination marketing organization. Yeah, no I agree and just as a note as we proceed that that mandate is really appealing, you know, again it gets me closer to my dream world, a complete meritocracy. He dream. Yes, thank you. We're here to make your dreams. Yeah. I love them but those that I read between the lines of the dream. I think I'm hearing. This is all a question. I think I'm hearing that a lot of what they do is figure out where to target incentives like discounts for different conventions is that kind of where a lot of the money ends up going. I'll tell you, I'm, I'm embarrassed I've been president of the Texas Hotel Association for over 18 years now and before that I was lead attorney for the Texas Municipal League and Chief of Municipal Affairs, and in all that time , I did not realize something until I started working on these tourism districts. And that's, there's a lot of business that Convention Visitors Bureau want to bid on that they're eligible, unbelievable numbers of business that could come to Denton or come to Dallas or whatever. The challenge is we only have so much through the local hotel tax where we can say, we're going to pledge this amount to host your meeting in other words, they get bid specs and it says in order to bid on this you need to sponsor the dinner and you need to provide this this rate for convention space and you need to, you know, host this event and these are the criteria if you want to bid that's how you either you participate or you don't. We literally a CVS Convention Visitors Bureau's is destination marketing groups. We bid on all that we can until we run out of funds that we can commit to those purposes. One of the secrets in Dallas and in Arlington and Fort Worth now is this opens up a pool of funding that they can bid on more events. In other words, they can say I can bid on this and commit to these incentives and I'm going to bid on this and commit to these hosting obligations, and we have a pool which will allow us that we don't get all them they get, I think 41%, but they're getting a heck of a lot more because they're just able to bid and participate. So the reality was we were leaving a lot of potential business in Texas on the table, because we have other states like Louisiana, or Arizona that have a heck of a lot more money that in California in particular that they have in incentives that as long as you can come to our state we 're going to find the way to host you. Does that help. Thank you. Well that's helpful because I know just with economic development incentives and like, it's really hard to say that this dollar, but for the spending of this dollar, right, this would not happen. And I think what I heard you say was, this isn't necessarily a magic wand, it's just more funding. And it's just what it does is it, it allows people to bid on more things and yes if the criteria is you got to pay for certain amount of stuff. So it's not that it's a silver bullet it's just a way to generate more money, which then you can go out and make more bids and apply more incentives that you couldn't otherwise with the funding so that that that's really how it's because it's very difficult to say that $1 spent from this fund in Dallas created $16 without having some pretty stringent metrics of this is, you know, but how do you know if we could have been on this one, or we could have been on that one, because it's just about it's about a. Lack of resources so if you have more resources, you're going to be able to improve the number of bids you put out which you're going to if you get a 25% rate of return on your bids, and you submit an additional 10 or 15 bids for that. You're in you get four of them, it's going to raise your percentage so it's it's just more matter of, there's just more money is that that's what it boils down to you have summarized it more beautifully than I could have 100% you have maximize your opportunities instead of having 13 opportunities in a year you might have 40 opportunities in a year. And if you get 25% then you're going to get that yield. Okay, fantastic. Any other questions for Scott. I was wondering if you drove up here just for this but you 're in Dallas so I figured you did I extended my change my flight just to be good. Thank you. Yes. So does the. If the district is created, does it pay fees to you. I don't charge anything. We're a nonprofit organization. And so what we do is we serve as general counsel for the different districts throughout the state. And typically in certain ones of the district depending on the district. We often don't have an opportunity to work with them on special projects. In that case we would look at a fee basis if we had a special project or a special service we're going to do. But, but no, there would not be a fee to me particularly I don't I don't. I'm paid by the Texas Hotel Association. So whether you do a tourism district or not. Unfortunately I still qualify for government chief. And so, yeah, yeah, it's been very rough I'd like to tell you. No, it's there's no individual fee that we would get paid. It's a marketing proposal that we wanted to submit we'd submit it like anything else to the board. But, but that's not typically what we do. Okay, thank you. Good. Any more questions for Scott. See that. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Appreciate it. You bet . Don't go too far have a feeling that there will be more questions as, as we continue. And to just follow up on that last question. The Denton hotels, we are all members of the Texas Hotel and Lodging Association and that Texas Hotel and Lodging Association provides legal support for us questions. They are there for us for whatever we need more integrally they're active within the legislative sessions, lobbying on the interest of the hotel years. And so they do provide so much more support for us so them helping with this is just that extra cherry. Yes, Councilmember. Well my question wasn't really just for this specific instance it was, if this is created, are there annual fees that the district has to pay to somebody or something or if that that's generally that's what I wondered. Typically in the districts and thank you for your thoughtful question. The district will typically reimburse the city for any costs that the city would have let's say that in your first caution you to change your software for your hotel tax collection process. Now there's right now you collect a 7% local city say hotel tax. Typically what you'll do is, as the other cities have done and what we would do is we work with your city tax collector to say let me tell you who how Fort Worth did it how Arlington did it how Dallas did it, and we'll share with it so you don't need to recreate the wheel that you amend your program and then when the hotels report it there'll be another line on an electronic reporting system that will allow for them to include that the tourism public improvement district fee. But whatever charge you have or cost you have to remit the check to audit that amount once a year to make sure that your software is in line with what you needed to be in line with the T pit reimburses the city so there's no cost of the city. There are no fees at the T pit pays the any outside entity. They don't pay any fees to us in terms of, you know, when I come out as general counsel, we just do that because that's why we're here. Okay, does that help. I would say when we, when we do come to you later on, if you direct us to move forward with pursuing this legislation. We will come to you with a service plan that will all be outlined in there. We will ask staff to provide us with how much it would cost to audit and collect the fees and that will be rolled in. Okay. So, this is what it could look like. Again this isn't set in stone but the way other tours of public improvement districts have done it, depending as Scott mentioned on market size, the demands of the hotels in Denton generally it would be a 75 room threshold. And so, it would be assessed 2% per room per night, and 17 didn't 26 hotels qualify. And just a side note there, I have a 74 room property, and that's how much I believe in this, I technically as a 74 room property would not have to comply with participate with the assessment. But as I tell you and didn't I know that conventions come in, it's going to help all of us, it's going to help the restaurants it's going to help hotels, it's going to help the downtown. There's so many other entities besides just the convention center that would actually get a little bit of money. I would definitely purchase those. So that's a good question. Zach so if someone is not part of that 75 room threshold. If they can opt out and they don't have to charge the 2% is that correct. Correct. They just sort of, yeah, they just don't have to go ahead yeah they don't have to participate, and now we have hotels and all of our districts who in the other districts that they choose to participate. Sometimes it's because they're run by one management company or one ownership group and you know what, I'm going to just put all my hotels and I don't want to have a different software system for the all the hotels in Denton, or all the hotels in Dallas, I'm just going to have one system will include the fee we believe in the district and they can voluntarily opt in. They opt in they just turn it in like anybody else and it's considered a contribution to the district, and the city we work with the city attorney's office in each city. And so far those city attorneys have felt that that was an appropriate way to handle those funds. And I'm sorry, Councilmember Robert. Go ahead if you're going to add to that. Oh no I wasn't gonna add to that so if it's pertaining to that. Oh yeah, so what are the. What would be the cons of opting out for a hotel. I'm trying I'm trying to think what would be the downside of opting out besides the fact that you don't have to charge your patrons more. You're saying if I'm a hotel with, let's say 60 rooms and I have the choice of whether 74 rooms like that. Why would I maybe choose to continue to opt out. Yeah. Well I mean because then I wouldn't have to include the 2% T pit fee on on on my guess. And so that that would be certainly one one one issue that that they could articulate. Yeah, okay so so there are no extra, but besides that one obvious factor there are no extra kind of benefits that a hotel would get from from opting in that they would be excluding themselves from if they opted out. Yes, I think I think it's interesting I think the advantage for folks who opt in is one they have a uniform rate amongst their segment to there's less confusion when they 're booking a room and people know that they typically book at any of these other hotels they have the same fee structure as the other hotels so it's just for simplicity purpose explaining it. What we found in the other districts it is not affected in Dallas, Fort Worth and Arlington it hasn't affected our ability to book rooms or to book conventions by having the additional fee. It just hasn't so it hasn't been a demand inhibitor. So, just the inclusion of being able to be in the know, being part of the district, participating and helping to make in the decision making process being able to come to meeting and saying I contribute. Now technically I don't know that Zach could serve on the board as a stakeholder, because he wouldn't technically be within the district, but he could attend the district meetings and provide every bit as much feedback and participate in that in that leadership as he was able to. Okay, so, so. So in other words, so when you opt in you you you also have more of a voice in. Okay. Yes, Mr. I think I know what the answer will be but if you thought through. Would there be any competitive advantage to dentin. If all of our competitors are charging this extra fee for us to be able to bid and say, and you don't pay that extra fee here. I'm saying that's the counter argument. And one additional question, Zach are you considering building one additional room. We're going to use the lobby as an additional sleeping capacity. I will tell you, I don't think the hoteliers would be here in dentin before you today, if they felt like it would be a competitive advantage that I mean if they felt otherwise they'd say you know what we're asking you to say please don't do a tourism district, because these other folks are doing this and we don't want to go down that path because we think that there'd be more of an advantage. Well we what we truly believe is an industry is that by doing this the advantages the pros of doing it the the the attributes of doing it far outweigh the detriment. And when we did our first tourism district in Dallas which is a major convention location. We're really worried, what would be the reaction of meeting planners what would be the reaction of transient guests, you know what how many complaints would we get. We have, you know, we've collected over now we're collecting $17 million a year and fees that go to this district, and not a single complaint, and six years not a single complaint. And so what that's told us is that if the fee on a tourism be like if we do an electricity surcharge, or if we do a resort fee and they don't participate in any of the resort assets, you know, our attributes, we get tons of complaints, you know, even even if but people understand if it's a tourism public improvement district they've seen it in other states . They understand it's used for exactly what they're there for which is people who are visiting from another city or another state, and trying to promote that activity so it's, it has not been a detriment and I don't think and I think losing the opportunity to go after the being able to bid on the other business and being able to market yourself as a, as a destination, and like Zach was saying, having a further competitive divide between Frisco and Alan and Ir ving and Amarillo. And Waco and the other communities that top of you may not reach their market but at least you're able to play closer to the margin, and you're able to bid on more events and I think being able to bid on more events you guys have a lot to offer and then that a lot of communities don't. So just getting there and being able to participate is very very important. Does that help answer your question. Could we do you know how many slides you have left when I just like to get through the presentation because, and then we some of these questions may be answered and then, and then if we could hold our questions till the end of that, is that okay with council. Okay, yeah, and I'll try to go as quickly a lot of them matter of time is just to make sure we just keep it concise that's and a lot of them have have already been answered so I will be able to move relatively quickly. Just to further. So we would need a resolution from the council we would then need to go to the state legislature through as part of this year city agenda but then we would need a petition from the hotel years to get this going so that we would have a petition we'd have a service plan we've delivered to council, and then we would work together on how this would work for for dentin so Scott already noted we would need to public hearings that were that were held with notice, the council and vote to approve the tourism public improvement district policy and this is all after the legislature handles their business. And then we would start assessing by the hotels, we would remit the tourism public improvement district funds, alongside the local hotel tax but there will be two separate amounts on the same total tax remittance form in this. So getting to that point is what Scott was referring to earlier as maybe some administrative fees, maybe we need to throw in some money to help you guys and the staff collect that money effectively. Once that those funds are collected the city within remit those T pit funds back to the Commission and visitors Bureau to handle as a separate account on behalf of the district, and the board, the board will be established majority of local hotel owners if not all again that will be determined as part of the service plan. And then we would move forward from there. How much would this yield us well this is a very difficult thing to answer right now because the embassy sweets has not been open a year yet. And trying to determine revenues we're estimating that 2% assessment would yield somewhere north of 830,000 could be quite a bit more than that but those are just some safe conservative estimates that we could be using to go out and bid on those those conventions, the funds as Scott already laid out the use for marketing that these incentives servicing research and prospecting new conventions. If Council opposite move forward, we would, we would ask for approval of a resolution and support and seeking the necessary state legislative authority. We would then ask you to add the tourism district as part of your legislative package in 2019, and then we would work closely with you and your local legislative delegations to secure their support. Again, just in summary, we're facing more and more competition and I don't think that fact has been disputed at all. And we would be offering a source of revenue that does not require additional city funds to go after new business. The legislature must authorize didn't in their 2019 legislation that starts in January, and as has been asked before authorization does not mean we must create a tourism public improvement district it just gives us the ability to do so. Council directs moving forward with authorization legislation. The staff will facilitate more discussions on how the service plan, and the tourism district to be implemented in the future, just to clarify the legislature doesn't have to approve that correct it would be a request to the legislature to approve then, and it'd be a city by city bill and then we'll probably have one collective bill with all the cities and that's the will the legislature but it's not these are not easy bills to pass it really takes the, the, the strong support from the city council because if you're dealing as you all know with the Texas Senate. It's a very very conservative body that does not like public private partnerships and districts of any type for the most part we 've gotten them all approved in prior sessions for the five cities that are on the table right now. But, and we're going forward with the other ones but it would take that we would need to support your legislative folks from your local community. I think you had a question. It's going to be hard to see except for more people in our community. And if the money just keeps building and building and building and the fund balance gets outrageous, I mean, is there a way to stop the fee until the money is spent just to guarantee that, you know, it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. Thank you for asking that question. I think that's a good point. And I think we're going to have to face that. I think the problem is that there's a lot of people that don't know how to spend the money. We're going to have to make sure that the assessment rate makes sense. And we're going to adjust that assessment rate because you aren't spending typically though you want to you don't want to penalize them unreasonably for being very cautious and determinative on how they spend the money. But there needs to be some activity and some value that they're providing. And so I have not we have not found in any tourism district throughout the country that they've had a hard time spending the money. The beauty is they don't have to spend all of it. And if they have a $50,000 left that they haven't expended, they're proud to put that forward to the category that makes the most sense and put that in the budget for your consideration for the next term. Okay, thank you. Thank you . Thank you. So I understand. So first of all, I can see the advantages of this. And I do understand that being included in the legislative request is only requesting the permission to get the option. Right. So I understand that doesn't obligate us. That said, making a legislative request is the it comes across as saying you know Denton supports this as well or Denton wants this, even if this is just to have this option right as in so looking at that list of cities who have already opted in. It looks to me like these cities want to do that. But I do understand. So I would just want to make that clear. I'm going to ask for number two. And I wanted to, to, to, you know, use this opportunity to state some kind of some of my questions and concerns moving forward, which I don't expect to be necessarily answered here, but that I would like to see as far as direction. Moving forward. Number one, it, you know, one condition for me, me personally to be on board with this is, I would need to see that to have an elected a publicly elected body city you know, the city council to be able to determine how, how the money that comes in, gets distributed. And of course I wouldn't want that to happen in a vacuum, you know nothing on council should happen in a vacuum I do but, but for me that's important. It's probably sounds silly for me to say but I'll say it anyway not because I'm on council, I haven't been on council for that long but as a, you know, member of the public I want to see that money. be public so for me that that public accountability factor is key. So, I don't mean to imply I think council can necessarily make better decisions than anyone else but but these are the people who are probably accountable so for me that would be a deal breaker, and, and then my. The things that I would like to know more about it would be , you know, to what extent could the, the city, or say whatever bodies and try to disbursing these funds, you dis perse them in a way that interprets tourism more broadly. So for instance, and other parts of our of the city that contributed tourism like Denton Community Market, the arts, you know our arts and music. You know maybe, you know, people, new, small business owners wanting to open up restaurants or music venues or, you know, and I'm not proposing these things I'm saying these are the kind of options I want to know, you know, what are the, what kind of other things that are there, and also what restrictions are there are there some restrictions you know that I might not know about that well the money for it to count as a teapot it could only be spent in the following ways that. So, yeah, those are the kind of things that that I would want to know. You know my, my bias tends to be towards kind of, you know, in seeing money come in like this to see it be used to, to benefit those related aspects of our community that are the most in need. And, you know, need can be interpreted, however, but anyway that's where my, and I hope I've made that clear, you know where my, what I see is kind of the positives and the negatives of the current proposal and my concerns, moving forward but I'm grateful for this information and really interesting to think about. And would it be helpful if we gave you a quick response on these is the, would that be helpful or would you prefer we to address it in a separate work session. We've got some other people that are wanting to comment so if we could, at the end sort of see what the consensus is and then if the consensus is such perfect. Councilmember Duff and then Mayor pro tem and then Council, Councilmember husband. Yeah, I don't see any downside of moving forward to take it to the state legislature. That doesn't mean we have to do anything with it after that to prove so at this point. I think we need to move forward. And I don't think we need to macro manage it. Mayor pro tem. Thank you Mayor. Yeah, I'm definitely for number three, we proceed forward. This is very informative very good information out there if there is additional information that some on Council want to know that can be handled on a one on one basis I really think, because I think it was pretty clear as to what the where the money comes from and how the money can be spent is already clear in the legislation. Mayor. Councilmember. Yeah, so I agree with the mayor pro tem, I think there is the follow up can come after. The difference is, is three. I think also understanding the limited schedule with the with the state legislators is important to me to kind of hit that timing. I'll say one other thing that hadn't been factored in and when you talk about differentiator should, and as anticipated, the time that we get their lead goal certification that then becomes a huge differentiator for our area versus other areas, you know, and begins that that becomes no very notew orthy. I would like to, if we could get a informal staff report email something from Caroline booth, just kind of understanding her, you know feedback would be helpful. And then we'll get a report as we go to hopefully there's a consensus, and we go to kind of a next phase design phase type thing I'd love to see what she has has to say. Yeah, and I just like the fact that it doesn't mean we have to take action right away, we can we can take advantage of this, the schedule with the legislature and then come back and and design something that really enhances our community and lastly, yeah. The funding, and I think you're spot on I mean every time I 've talked to Todd or in any different hotel years I mean they're, they're so in tune with the market and the ebbs and flows and what people are into and just connections. I really do think that if one I just can't see counsel managing. I can pay my mortgage, you know, it just, it just that that would be that would be problematic. And then, too, it's, it's their business. And to then understand it, the supervisory role but to get into the, the meat and potatoes of it is tough for me to do. Yes, Councilmember Meltzer and then we'll go back to Councilmember death. I would be with number three to move forward with legislation for reasons have already been said, I would be interested in staff at an appropriate time, presenting us options for how to structure it so there was some degree of public accountability it is enabled by public legislation, a lot of money to be slashing around without accountability. So, when we get further to actions I hope that the board would look for Denton specific ways to add value to convention years experiences here. So we're not just, you know, bidding for biggest buffet or lowest price. Yes, Councilmember race. So I'm in favor of option three. Just getting it on and it 's not, we don't have to we have a lot of time to work out everything else. I do want to know what our current marketing budget is for the CBB. I think our, your CBA somebody. What's the current marketing budget, just, just so that we have a, an estimation. Yeah, just so like what it is now and then what the potential of it to be. Sure, what is right now. Our hotel tax receipts and didn't run about two and a half million. And the CBB budget is about 42% of that at 1.2. And that covers everything I mean that's not just the marketing piece of what we do I mean, we exist to do marketing so this money would though be earmarked separately, it wouldn't just be part of our budget. So it would actually be overseen by the, the T pit group. So it would be in addition to, yeah, Scott if you could get behind the microphone please because we're transmitting this over. You're good in all the tourism public improvement districts there's a, when we work with the city councils. We look at exactly that information what is the base amount of the city has historically been funding the Convention of Business Bureau, and the commitment that we make to our hotel groups if you sign on to this the city will continue to do what they have typically done for the CBB or for their marketing destination marketing group. This will supplement that so we can take the efforts in the economic activity the next level. So it's not to supplant to replace. It's basically to supplement. And so that's why typically we like in Dallas we did a 13 year district. And we also did a 13 year contract with the city where the CBB renewed its contract with the city, and that renewal the contract provided for what the city council was comfortable with in terms of their continued historic level of funding, because the hotel years probably would not be interested in doing a tourism district, only to replace funding that used to be given to the CBB by the hotel tax so the theory is that to to to in order to have any economic impact is to supplement what you 're doing what we're not asking to increase what you do with the hotel tax, or to change what you do that's you've already provided the council direction on that we're just saying we're willing to self assess without any exaction from the general public in order to create these supplemental funds. Right, and I know that we have a line that where we, we send a little bit of marketing for the convention now I was just looking for that. I know it's it's not near nearly I mean I'm just kind of looking for the scale of what what the impact would be. As far as what's dedicated specifically to marketing with the convention center. It's under $200,000 right now. Thank you. Councilor looking at is over. We've double that at least. Councilmember death. You know we have two state senators that we can get on board with this, you know, besides some of the rest of the legislature. Anybody else I just have a couple comments. I'm okay with option three. The devil is going to be in the details, I appreciate your comment about this, the supplementing of the CBB budget. That's going to be very critical for me to understand exactly how those mechanics work because I know that there's been a, there's been some discouragement on the level of funding that you all have received over the last few years. And this seems to be a way to to do that but what I'm understanding though if it's in a separate account. And it's got a board of directors and it has a budget that has to be approved by the city council, I would anticipate there's some bifurcation of duties in. Personnel are under the CBB doing this work that the city funds through hot funds, and then, because if it's simply just gets assumed into the CBB budget and so it was 1.2 million before, and let's say this is passed and everything 's approved we all agree on the details, then it becomes 1.2 million with this. I just need to understand the details of the bifurcation and I there is any yes and I don 't need to know that now I just mean when we come back to work out the details your instincts are 100% is bifurcated. Okay, the city council as its approval process as it would normally have for the hotel tax and what you want the CBB to do. And then you have the separate process with all your other public improvement districts that come before you, this would come before you as a public improvement budget item and showing how we're using these supplemental funds so there's a lot of clarity for you. And that way you can ask and there's clarity for the hotel community to we want to make sure whatever the CBB did before they continue to provide those important functions, and how are we taking to the next level with these supplemental funds and there's a bif urcated process. All right. Exactly I do have a question of clarification when I looked at the backup. I thought your hotel was listed on the 17. And they assumed that we were 75. Okay, no, I just curious. I just curious, and I like Councilmember Messler's suggestion it would be very difficult to do that but I'm sure we would love to add. Okay, so I think, I think there's direction on option three , and then, of course, there's, there's more to come after that but that's the first step. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Okay, let's take a quick 10 minute break we've been going for a couple hours. Welcome back everybody to this meeting of the Denton City Council. On October 23 2018 it is 211. We're moving down through our work session items we've done items, a through C. Now we're moving on to D, receive report hold discussion provide staff direction regarding city council priorities for upcoming work session report topics. Your council Brian Langley deputy city manager, want to continue our discussion or monthly discussion on priorit izing work session items have just a short presentation for you and then be looking for some direction. So just as a reminder we had our retreat with you back on August 25 it seems like a long time ago just a couple months ago. We talked about key priorities that you see listed here and also developing a process for addressing work session items and talking about how we would prioritize those, the ones that you'll see on the schedule, really in some shape or form address all the key priorities that you see here over the next few months at least a portion of them. We also had a work session with you on August 28 and September 18 council feedback that received was that they wanted to align the work session topics the future work session topics with those key priorities so we've done that . Also there was an openness to have more informal staff reports rather than work session items so I've noticed that many council members are asking for informal staff reports for putting that information together, and then asking you from in these monthly work session strategy sessions do you want to actually have a work session discussion of it. We also heard from several of you that the length of the meetings was a concern that we were meeting for many hours and work session and you wanted to consider that. So from that we came up with recommendations that in general we would start the work sessions around one to two o'clock with limits of three to four presentations per meeting. We violated that rule today at starting at noon, but we did have some of the council perform appointee reviews that we had on your schedule as well as a little bit different. And then we would have this monthly strategy session to consider and prioritize requested work session items. And the other thing that we got direction from you to do was to survey you in advance of the meeting to figure out where some of the key areas were that you want to focus on and so we did that survey. We've included that in your backup and I'll go through the results of that. I do want to emphasize for you to the survey is just a start for the conversation I think in the last meeting that we had a little difficult as we look through all the items to see where everyone was where were some of the key things that you want to focus on so we thought that'd be helpful to kind of start the conversation and give you a little bit more direction. So these are the topics that we have scheduled over the next few months, starting with our luncheon on November 5, these are the three items that we have and we have a number of other ones through November, the luncheons, typically we 've tried to have as a general rule they start around 1130 and go about an hour and a half to two hours. That could certainly be different. Yes, Councilmember. On November 6, Gerard and I are both going to be out. And I really would like to participate in the historic preservation master plan and I know that he I think actually requested the athletic facility master plan so I don't know if those are items that can be rearranged and I don't want to speak for him or not but I know that for myself, the historic master plan I'd like to participate in that I'm not going to be here so I would ask that Council may consider moving that to something and switching it with with another. We could certainly look to do that and again that's one of the reasons that we're here is to talk about the schedule that we have the UNT master plan, we did try to coordinate with the athletic directors office and when they'd be available. Certainly we can look at moving that back, perhaps into December or January if that would accommodate their schedule but I think they had to release that in the last 30 days or so and so we're trying to come to you timely. It's really true. The only one on the six that we want to try to move or do you want to try to know I mean points valid and thank you for that in a perfect world, but I do understand their schedule so I was going to try to steal away and watch it online. It is, it was going to be my other approach so that I guess that to mesh the world's, if they have some availability soon, then sure, if they're open to moving it if they're not, it's fine, I'll just make a point to steal away and watch it on. We can certainly reach out to them I'm sure they'd be happy to reschedule it if you're comfortable with just getting a little bit later. Sure can do that. In regards to the historic preservation is this going to be direction or options or is this just an update what kind of presentation is it just informational or is it because if it's going to be, you know, options or some sort of direction then I definitely the city manager has some information we've got the consultant on board now so it's more of a matter of how we 're going to work our way through this process more of a more of a structural discussion, so the council's uncomfortable with proceeding. There is one source of direction that first one that they'd like to get some feedback on and that was instead of set up setting up an ad hoc committee to perhaps look the HLC service that vetting function for this particular recommendation council but at this point it's just a high level overview on how this project is going to proceed forward. So I want to move it. I would like to be here. Yeah, it's important to me. Absolutely. We'll look at moving the athletics master plan and the historic master plan preservation master plan. Is there any concern with moving that dog park up. You are just trying to think look at things that we might be able to have a ripple effect with all these others so we can certainly Well I don't know I mean I can miss the impact fee discussion. That's not helpful. And then. So, yeah, so that's one of them. So the impact the you can switch it. Yeah, we're ready to go on that one if you want. And for me you know where I stand on City Hall West, so we're going to move that to the six. Okay, so we'll so we'll move up the North Lakes dog park move the historic preservation back and we'll call and contact. So we'll see if you and T. And then I'll come back to you and then in November, we'll have the same kind of discussion looking at all the items coming up, but we do have a tentative schedule looking at in December, and in January and February of all the items, certainly, these will move around somewhat as we some items may not be ready other be ready earlier and we'll bring them as soon as we can. Yes, I have one comment, because I know that the auditor had some things he wanted to bring back to us and some of them were pretty time sensitive I thought and I don't see an opening for him to come to us with any kind of presentation in any of these all the way through next year, we will we will follow out we reach out to him every week at our leadership team meeting, so we'll follow up with them to see if he's got something that he'd like to get scheduled more, we're happy to fit him in. Okay, thank you. As soon as we see that an item is ready to go if another one's not ready then we can certainly do that but we haven't had a request just yet. Okay, thanks. Yeah, so here's January I do want to point out we're not having a January one luncheon so you have your New Year's Day plans are okay. We're looking at doing January 7 it's the typo on our part so that'll be that first meeting but we do have more, obviously more times that are available as we get into the January February as we're looking to fill these out. So as I mentioned to you before we did email a survey to you we asked you to rank all of them formal staff reports that had went out really on policy related matters so if it was more of just a procedural issue or just a basic factual kind of question that we gave you information on we didn't include that in the survey, but if it was a policy related item. We asked Council each individually to tell us if you had a high interest in having a work session on the topic, a low interest or no interest. And then there really as I mentioned before these are intended to help facilitate facilitate the discussion, you 're not voting on these items in the survey was just really to see where is Council, your initial observation of wanting the discussion, not necessarily how you would would vote on the discussion. So with that as a introduction these are the results that we got back from you and I think maybe the simplest thing is to go down through these one at a time. Obviously, a large percentage of you 83% wanted to have. Yes, sir. It's just based on 100% participation or how many. No sir we had six or seven. Okay. And so, is it was 16.67% probably equate to like one person one vote. All right, so the 33 is to the 50 is three, three and then. Okay. All right. Right. Yes, I refuse to take the survey. Okay. All right. I was just curious I mean I'm just trying to understand. Yeah, okay. Appreciate that. Right. So, 83% of the votes came in for fire department diversity and issues so obviously there's a high interest in discussing that so we 'll put that on the schedule to bring that back unless there 's a difference of opinion here today. Okay, the apartment gets Councilmember house. Yes, sir. Aaron. Can I give. Can I add to the request, or can I give details that I want to come back, is that on the face on this list. Yes, I just don't want to I don't want to, I don't have a discussion but I want to try to guide it when it comes back. Is that doable. Yes. Yes, because you are opposed to broad enough to be able to do that. Okay, very good. Could I give you a name, I met a gentleman. So he's a fire chief in Lancaster. Okay. And I think it would be worth a phone call for someone in the fire department, at least to reach out. And the note. There's a few reasons why one he's he's African American fire chief he's applied for a job here in Denton so he kind of familiar he's familiar with, with the job, and our city, and then to their, their areas about 80% black and he has to fight black firefighters. And so it kind of would, he has a perspective, I talked about a banquet that is that is pretty insightful some stuff they're doing to fight in the same fight different environment, but challenge all the same. So, I think he has. In my brief conversation I think has some unique insight that may be helpful as staff kind of pulls together a presentation will certainly reach out to see if we can bring that back to you. So I guess, unless you have a different procedure, because going down through the list of these are you going down through to see if somebody wants to change their mind or what I mean, if you when you look at this list. What's your thoughts of the ones that are that sounds like the council has a high interest in what's intermediate interest. I mean, so we can go into. Sure, I guess, what are we gonna be talking about on each one is generally speaking if it was 50% of more of you said it was a good one. 50% of more of you said it was high interest that you have a high priority of discussing it we're going to put that on the schedule as quickly as we can. If it's 50% or more that have no interest, then that would not be on our future work sessions that there's not enough interest of the council to proceed. And if it's 50% or more on low interest we would look at putting it when we can, but it may be a few months before it would make the schedule based on all the other items that we have. So we're not going to go into the general kind of where we were but again, okay, it's subject to discussion and Councilmember Amater direction from Council. 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If not, Chair would entertain motion or action. Mayor Potem? Move approval of item F. Do we have a second? Council Member Meltzer? Second. All right. All in favor, please signify by raising your right hand. All opposed by like sign. Motion carries six to one. We will now call agenda item K. Consider approval of a resolution repealing the city of Denton-Juice of the city hall meeting space policy reference number 500.01, et cetera. Good afternoon, Mayor and City Council. My name is Charlie Rosendahl. I'm a management analyst with the Public Affairs Department . And I have a short presentation for you on the meeting room policy that's before you. Just as a way of background, in the early 1980s, we had two policies that were adopted relating to meeting spaces. The city hall meeting spaces is specific to this building and the uses regarding this building meeting conference rooms, excuse me. And then the use of conference rooms is internal only to city employees. So an ISR was provided in June of 2018 with a draft of the policy and an explanation for why we were consolidating this into a single policy. So what we've done is some of the key changes are we've consolidated the two policies into a single policy and we 've expanded to include other facilities in the city that have been allowing meetings to take place in the conference rooms. The justin have a policy guiding that we attempted to clearly define the guidelines for the use and established priorities for resident reservations. The top priority being for city staff and boards, commissions, functions, and then for each facility, there's a different listing of priorities for those. And then we've included the fees associated with reservations of a room and under what conditions those fees would apply. So earlier today, we did take some notes on some of the items that you guys had mentioned for us to look further into. The Chapter 22 alcohol exclusion for the specific parks facilities that are in there to remove items that are specific for decorations on a table and strike that from the policy. Further research on neighborhoods groups use of the meeting rooms and working with internal staff to get some kind of policy for the deposits. So, with that, we're seeking direction on any additional changes we'd like and we'd like to bring this back for consideration on November 6. Yes, ma'am breaks. Yeah, so this may or may not be in there but I when I looked at the city facilities and meeting rooms, because I do know that this council does have and myself included, many meetings, like community meetings, and those do use city facilities. So I'm not sure how that would go into the first come first serve basis or reservations or if we would still be allowed to reserve our rooms, I don't. I'm just looking for, you know, like behavior what I do is reserve mine for a certain day for a long period of time and would that still be allowed or is this going to negatively affect those town halls that that we have on the days that that we need those rooms for public facilities, no that it wouldn't negatively affect that so that would still be in the listing of priorities and you still be able to reserve that room based on availability for community meetings. So a couple questions I have on me get to it, where it talks about definitions. Where would neighborhood organizations fit into the definitions. So we like dina neighborhood said, those kinds of things, where would they fit in. So, so we contemplated those would fall under civic organizations. Okay. And in the parks specific section, reference six point six point four. We also call out their educational and cultural organizations. So we can go back and try to clearly define and make sure that those neighborhood organizations are included. Yeah, that I think that would be that be had some clarity to it. I appreciate that. And on. Now the section where it's the 21 what is it 500 500.06 is that right general guidelines on 21, because I know Council member may pro tem and brought up that there may be an inconsistency with there's one code that says you can only have alcohol beverages in the civic center and North Lakes Park is that right. And in our code of ordinances under 22 dash 32 right it basically there are spots at North Lake that you can have it in spots at the civic center slash Quaker town that you can have it, but no other facilities. Yes. Okay. That's really not part of this policy that's an entirely different item to, to look at that particular section of our code of ordinances for future. Okay, well so just to go back to death, we're not talking about parkland here we're talking about facilities actual structures building. So, none of this that we're talking about is parkland. So then in 19 it says per city code consumption of alcohol and public properties prohibited. This includes is but not limited to city of Denton public facilities and so what I'm hearing you say is, it's, it's prohibited everywhere except two places. So that seems to be an inconsistency there. Is that right is that what you're pointing out. Yes, I'm pull up 22 dash 32. It, it makes it unuseful to unuseful unlawful to consumer possess alcohol on any city park but then there's a section in there says this prohibition contained in 22 dash 32 a shall not apply to the possession and consumption of alcohol beverages in Quaker town park civic center built building North Lake Park, excluding North Lake Recreation Center. It's just okay. That's just a separate section that we're referencing in right, right, this ordinance. Okay, we want to address. Yes, customer breaks. Right. Yeah . On that my concern is, because Civic Center, we rent out for private events, and we're hosting you know wedding receptions and I just want to make sure that if, if you're saying that it's allowed in one of our ordinances that it's consistent with this policy that it be allowed there with all the other, I guess, requirements, if so, yeah, and we've got that noted so we 're going to go back and make sure that that's clean that up a little bit make it some consistency there okay. All right. And then in chapter section 21 just a couple down. I know, Mayor pro tem you brought up about the decorations I don't know if what did you have is your bullet point on your slide. Remove requirement for decorations on table. I think, at least from what I've heard from a citizen is, it's not so much that they don't want to be able to decorate tables, but that the prohibition was attaching anything to the walls and it was only restricting it to tables that a freestanding decoration, or an easel or something like that that, you know, they would be allowed to do that that you just can't attach anything on the walls or, you know, destroy or modify the. Hold on Councilmember Briggs, hold on. Go ahead. Am I saying something that's. Yeah, go ahead. No, you're not saying anything that's wrong. I think the. When you have parties or birthday parties and say you rent a room at North Lakes for the birthday party. If you want to tape up some paper, some kind of paper, I don't know. Something like a banner or something yeah a banner or something that that prohibits that and that seems kind of silly. I mean we're. I understand you don't want anybody to get a hammer and a nail and like put holes in it but you know if you're having a superhero thing party and you want to, you know, put up a picture of a superhero with a tape that, you know, that that should be allowed, and that we shouldn't be just restricting somebody to a tablecloth and centerpiece. So what I'm hearing you say is obviously tablecloth center pieces maybe some non attachable things to the walls like easel, but if you're going to attach something. It needs to be via tape that can be removed without any damage to the walls that is that what I'm hearing you say okay. Yeah, if that's something you might you might look at. Let me see if there's any. Okay, in Chapter 500.06 2.3 it talks about in bullet point five events requiring the use of audio visual equipment outside of regular business hours will require cable TV staff member to assist and will be subject to fee in order to cover the city's expenses in accordance with fees listed in this section is that our practice now is to if, if we have an event that's not a city sponsored event it's somebody else's event, and we have to have audio visual there do we charge them a fee or is this something that's not the practice now. It just gives us the option to if we need to based upon time and. Okay. All right. And then, in the library and 3.3. It says alcoholic beverages may only be permitted in the facility with prior permission from the library director. That seems a little inconsistent with some of the language that we've been talking about earlier. So, it may be how we want it I'm just I wasn't quite sure as to why that particular exception was in there. So, so they do believe they do have events in which there may be a wine and cheese event or something like that so okay but we'll go back and we'll research that along with the alcohol in the prior section, 1.1.19. Because if there is alcohol out there are certain rules and regulations regarding public safety. If there's so many people or something there has to be a police officer or things such as that correct we have that somewhere else. I think those are all the ones that I have. Any other questions comments on this on this one. So, do you want to make those corrections and just bring it back for action item is that what you is that what you prefer. Okay. I'm going to ask you and I don't know so please forgive me if I'm if I'm wrong. Is this your first presentation or one of your first presentations. Well congratulations, you did a great job. Yes. Fantastic. I just wanted to make sure because I think it's you know it 's a daunting task sometimes to get up there and appreciate it. You did a great job. Thank you. Okay, so okay we'll come back to us so no action on K. So that concludes our agenda item to which are consent agenda items and those pulled for individual consideration will now move to agenda item three a which is considered option of Nordic of the city in Texas of Texas home real municipal corporation, authorizing the city manager execute professional service agreement with HR green. Good evening mayor and council, Todd s to city engineer. If you recall, about two months ago we brought to you a work session item where we talked about the development review process specifically in regard to how we review the technical aspects of development projects and private related construction. One of the items that we had also talked to you about was outsourcing a good bit of what we had been doing in house and putting the entire bundle the entire package of those operations in the hands of a consultant who could really put together the processes in a unimpeded fashion, without a lot of the history that has led to where we are. So what I have for consideration tonight is a contract with HR green, it is noticeably different in that we were not looking to go this direction we're looking to hire them to night as a technical review consultant, purely than to evaluate the processes that we are putting in place. And then also to help us establish a better way of exacting fees for the development community as they bring projects forward. So the contract right now as it is before you it's a total of about $815,000. 486 is the first six months of that contract and it includes technical reviews the vast majority of that where they would review the civil engineering plans that are tied to development projects. Then, a portion of that would be looking at the processes involved in a private development project coming through the city and getting it from the initial planning phases all the way through the design and construction phases. How do we best put that into place. And then how do we assess appropriate fees for both the inspections and review parts of that. And then we have an extension on this contract a possible extension for an additional six months once we have that development fee system put in place for an additional $350, 000. Potential up to. Just walking you back through and I apologize for the animations I did not intend for them to be on there but walking you back through what we had done at the previous work session we talked about the RFQ process in general, how we had gone through and put out to bid, or put out to request college qualifications to multiple consultants to give us what we had been looking for at the time which is the package we brought it at work session. We had three respondents, one rose to the top amongst all three that was HR green incorporated, we entered into negotiations with them they came on site and started assessing kind of what they would need to have on site to take on that bigger picture role where they were going to take the whole thing, and to start taking on some of the development review aspects today. We're taking in about 12 private development projects, a week for technical review. Having them on board has really helped us kind of push things forward this was done under an administrative contract it was less than $100,000 so that was done to get the ball rolling. This is the follow up that puts them in a more permanent place. As I said before we had originally thought they would be taking on the entire process as a total package, and then helping develop the process in general both what the personnel would look like how we actually put the resources in place the processes the methodologies and deliver the entire process. We were able to come to terms from a budget standpoint we were just not able to get there with this particular consultant what we were able to agree on is that with the budget that we had approved recently for this fiscal year we could easily cover that technical review part which we had built into the project, or built into our budget for this coming year. One of the items we had talked about was that flipping the model scenario where right now we do a lot of reactive review and work with our development community. We're trying to bring on this consultant and a new process a new way of doing this kind of business in a much more proactive way. So a lot of things like cost participation negotiations with the contractor terminating impact fees were happening well after plans were submitted. And at that point the developer and the consultant have already put a lot of time and effort into the plans. We want to flip that model on our own capital projects. We have a lot of upfront discussion through the design process we would like to get that more in place with the development community so when they come in there's no surprises, we can set a defined delivery time and we can meet that. So to get there what we have had to do is take a new look at how are we actually approaching this process. So a little graphic here, apologize if it's a little rud imentary but it's what I could come up with. So here's what we have is really if you think about what we're creating is instead of being a technical consult or technical engineer who's trying to manage the review of an actual set of plans and do all the negotiation tie in all the multiple different components of the city that have to come into the discussion when we're bringing a development project through the process. It's overwhelming. So, one of the things that we had been trying to do in the past was just at least get the technical review piece out source so that we could have internal staff work on these items but it also created some silos in the past that were issues. You know you had a set of engineers in one place and another set of engineers at the service center. Just because of the geographic distance they weren't always on the same page. So it led us down the path of rethinking this process altogether and saying you know really what we need is we need that project manager who stands in the middle and holds staff's feet to the fire and the developer and their consultant to if you're if you're going to do something you need to make a decision we need to move this forward. So with the three personnel that we had requested in our budget for this year, we were proposing that we use those three people as project managers development facilitators. They walk the developer through the process from the very beginning, all the way through final construction. So no more of the next steps here's what you got to do next . Here's the plan from start to finish. That's their job is to bring all those people to the table those decision makers to the table and have that discussion so really that private developers dealing with one person. Instead of all of these folks combined into multiple places . The development facilitators responsible for touching all these other avenues to make sure that on the city side we get done efficiently and effectively what we need to have done. So just a general breakdown of where some of these changes occur we would be proposing that the development facilit ators would move under development services parallel to planning the engineering staff that was currently in the development role the development review role are moving into a variety of areas. One of those areas being in project delivery is a project manager. And two of the other areas would be under a division that we're forming called engineering services where they provide those in house consulting services they do the review decision making when needed, but their primary focus is to provide the decisions and answer the questions from a technical nature that a private developer really has when he's trying to get a project off the ground . Then we would utilize this HR green contract to do the actual review of plans to be able to do that more effectively more efficiently because they can just draw the resources internally, much quicker than we could, they can keep pace with the demand we currently have on staff. Councilmember has a question or comment. Thank you. Can we go back one slide sure and thank you. How do you reconcile those two so the private developer spoke with the development facilitator, and was given marching orders development facilitator goes back to planning and says here's the next step and planning says no no. It's, it's different than that. Does that roll back down to the developer or do we just say hey that's on us. So this goes down the pathway of what we currently have which is you have frontline staff trying to make a decision they're not empowered to make. So, how do I put the right people in the right room to make those decisions up front with the development communities dealing with and we're dealing with internally are multiple decision makers from multiple places overriding each other. So it's making it very difficult for both sides so the facilitators job is just that is to facilitate the process. If you're one of the decision makers in this process then his job or her job is to say, I need a decision on this item and once we make a decision. We're going to utilize a very gated process to say you've made a decision we don't get to revisit that once we've made it. Now if there's a health and safety issue. Obviously we're going to make a change but really when it comes down to we 're gonna make a decision they typically come down to things like, do I need an eight inch water line or 12 inch water line okay well the facilitator doesn't leave the water engineering group until they get a definitive decision, and then he can report back to the developer here's what we're doing. Okay, thank you. I think I think another way to explain this is these development facilitators and know that's a interesting title, but just think of it as these are folks that interface with the owners reps from the development community. And they're really there to make sure that all these comments are getting made in a coherent fashion you've got an item on your agenda a little bit later tonight with Kim Lee horn to write all the spec books so the idea to your point. These specifications we as we discussed a few months ago, sometimes there's three and four different types of specs for streets water main sewer mains and it leads to a lot of infighting a lot of disagreements. The idea is there's going to be one set of standards, those standards are updated annually. The development facilitator make sure that the development that's coming in meets those specifications interfaces all these folks, and they are driving the projects now. They're going to report directly into the development services director and ultimately into myself to make the call if there's disputes, but with the specification books updated. And we're working with legal right now on the processes to make sure that the new DDC integrates as well. There shouldn't be that much discretion left anymore. So, this is more of a customer service function for the app which is outward facing, supported by the HR green contract which is backhouse engineering inspections. It's helpful. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. I think the city managers just kind of confirmed what I was going to ask I wanted to clarify that the. When you talk about no surprises that the set fees would be in here. And so that when we look at flipping the model beforehand you would just be kind of guessing what those fees were and then there were some prizes afterwards and they were either, you know, a lot more or a little more so that this way they'll know upfront, exactly. What it's going to be right this leads us right back to what we had talked about in the work session where we don't want those surprises when you come in with your plans and you're ready to go, you're going to know the fees we're going to take them right then if you don't have the fees ready to go then then we're not taking the plans to move forward. So question. If you could go to your org chart. So you have engineering services and read. If you could go back to your backslide, your previous slide , you see that engineering services up there. Yes, sir. Is that the same thing. Yes, sir. Okay, so I'm a little confused. Okay. So this is what I think you're saying so correct me if I'm wrong. That this development facility, we used to have something like this a little bit different is it called an ombudsman. And so it's sort of the same thing you're basically trying to troubleshoot facilitate, instead of the developer having to go to each one of these people in these organizations, you've got sort of one central location that can try to troubleshoot. Yes, that. So, if you go back to your org chart where does that development facilitator reside. He's not in our group he is in development services. Okay, so Scott McDonald's group right right parallel to so you'd have planning, you got building officials and then you'd have this development facilitators group parallel to that group there. Okay, all right. So then, then what I'm hearing is that HR green technical review that as these plans come in. I don't know how else to say it. But then why would we need engineering services if they're going to be the ones doing all our technical review. What are you what it's everybody going to be doing. So, the model can be painted this way. He was, he couldn't get to his mic fast enough. So, go ahead. I'm sorry. This way, their, their role and responsibility here is to actually physically review the plans. HR green correct. Yes, they're doing the actual there they're marking up the red lines but what we're missing here to get the to this proactive model you have to have technical staff ready to answer the questions that a developer wants to know how big a water line do I need to have, can I do this size of roadway versus that size of roadway. Those should be happening up front. Right. Well ahead of you ever coming in with construction plans ready to go. HR green takes the time and effort that's required to focus on just marking up plans making sure they meet the code they meet the specifications and meet the design criteria, and any decisions we've made. Okay, so I appreciate that. So what I'm hearing is that currently, before the little green box was there. Engineering services was doing both. They were having to interface with the developer at whatever stage it was to answer technical questions. And unfortunately, in the old model, or the current model it's, it's usually after the submittal everybody trying to figure this out after the fact. Correct. So not only were they answering questions and those kinds of things. They are also responsible for doing the actual technical review, looking through each plan making sure that they conform to our specs. Is that absolutely yes. So then if HR, if HR green takes over half of that. I'm assuming that the staff level that we have right now was over either overloaded and we couldn't get anything done. Exactly. Because if you take half of that workload and offload it. Yes, sir. Then that means you may have. I don't want to say people who aren't doing not as many people needed but you know what I'm trying to say you've got so I'm just trying to understand how, because if all they're doing is answering questions from the developer they're not really doing any technical review it's more of a resource. And they have they have multiple roles in this new venue. One of those roles is what you also see some of our engineering folks to some in house design on smaller projects where we're doing water wastewater stormwater relocations the small transportation projects, where it would be it would take more time and more effort to hire a consultant, they're doing some of that as well as generating the overall decisions that go into delivering all these projects they're also up keeping our current water wastewater traffic and stormwater models. These folks are very busy. And one of the things you saw with the development review group that we had before. They were working 12 hours to 15 hours a day, five six sometimes seven days a week to keep pace. Okay. All right. Okay, I appreciate that that's helpful. And so then the traffic engineer the red boxes indicate this new paradigm is that correct and these are these new positions are they just moving people around, moving people from the old engineering development review group and where they would be housed now . Okay, so those engineers will be housed where we can best utilize them as a resource, and one of those would be as a project manager on capital projects. And then the other one, two of them are actually moving to traffic engineering to provide some extra out to our city traffic engineer who's already overloaded, and then you have another one that the stormwater piece and floodplain managers moving over into that group. So then, to make sure I'm clear. Yes, sir. Under this new paradigm that the engineering services. They're probably going to be responsible for answering questions. Doing the modeling. Yes, sir. And then doing the in house engineering for in house project city project correct. So, who will be reviewing the nuts and bolts of those plans is that is that our in house engineers are those also going to go for technical review to HR green those are being in house engineers. Okay. Okay. Great. Yes, Councilmember. Well, and I'm curious about so traffic engineering can we then use them for non city projects so there's a development coming. Or is that traditionally a third party. It's usually a third party because you start getting into the public private partnership realm. I'm sure how we broach that one. I'd really honestly their time is going to be so filled with what they 're doing because they're a good component of what this group will also be doing is reaching out to text dot regional transportation committee. The various partners we have in the community and at large that generate funding sources new projects do the planning for upcoming bonds, those kinds of efforts will also be housed inside this group. So, there's not going to be just a lot of extra time for them to go take on outside projects. Which which you're seeing a little bit in this model as well is moving the transport former transportation directors function more into were pre tam and Mario are going to take that over with cogs so there's going to be some higher level planning. They're already interfacing with john pollster and going after grant dollars to in federal dollars to bring those into the city so there's also an absorption of those duties as well. But right now there's definitely the workload and the traffic engineering side the requests don't stop in terms of speed studies and those sorts of things. But we wanted to be sure that we were also integrating the long term capital planning with the request for funding, because it had been so destroyed over years it's taken us the last couple of the last year in particular with Todd mark to try to get that more streamlined. So you're seeing that that function get integrated in here as well. So there's complete integration between what we're asking for, and what we're planning for. Thank you. That's my right. Do you know how many people HR green will have working just to review these for us that can vary. It depends on our demand that we push towards them. I know what they have been looking at right now is somewhere between five and eight that they're utilizing through off site locations to achieve what they need to but they've also talked about being able to pull in as many as 10 to 12. For the price that we see here. Okay. That I think this also that contract also includes some idea. I think the Council member race question it's a good one. It also includes dealing with about 140 case backlog as I recall as well so once that gets caught up. We see how this new this this is a real different way of managing development services as much more of a private sector model that we're putting in place here to interface with the owners reps in the, in the, in the private sector and making sure that on the back end in order for this to work the spec books have to be crystal clear. And you've essentially, you've essentially got people that are probably troubleshooting with largely backgrounds planning engineering type backgrounds, but they know how to steer people through our processes. Once this if this is as successful as we think it's going to be, then we build the new development services system around the process. Mayor. Yes, go ahead. And so is this when I'm trying to go back to the original presentation, when we were talking about the mobility update can do we know how far away that is and that seemed to be kind of important for the getting everything in place in the specs that you talk about. Absolutely, we had pre tam getting pricing on that the next day. Yes, so, okay. We're finishing up negotiations on that contract for both the mobility plan and the master thoroughfare plan. We'll be seeing that contract soon too. Okay, thank you. Okay. All right. Any other questions so far. That was really all I had because the next one is the recommendation. And then questions, if you all have it. If you back up the slide because one of them yeah there's two, there's two different numbers here, I thought there was a 480 something in the 350. So the total contract is 8 15,000 and some change, it's $486,000 for this for the initial six months with the possible extension and additional six months up to around $350,000 so that extension will be at whose option. We come back here. Okay. Any questions. Yes, customer has been. I'm good proceeding as planned I think the six months will be a good snapshot to kind of get a feel for its effectiveness and we have a clear number of backlog and we 'll see where we get in six months and that'll give us a good read on the next six months. So this is an action item, correct. Yes, sir. So, need a motion and second to move forward on this. Member Amateur second. Oh, did somebody make a motion. Oh, sorry, you make a motion. I make a motion. So you're making a motion. Yes, I'm not well recovering from cold second mayor pro tem seconds. So this is for agenda item three, a. Everybody in favor please signify by raising your right hand. I unanimously agenda item three be considered option of an ordinance of the city of Dent Texas Texas homeroom municipal corporation authorizing the city manager to execute professional service agreement with Hewitt zolars for engineering related professional services for the McKin ney Street widening project. Good evening mayor council members I'm Chad Allen Deputy City Engineer, and I have this presentation about the McKin ney Street widening final design contract. So I'm here to ask you to consider adoption of an ordinance that will allow us to execute this agreement for engineering related services for final design of the McKin ney Street widening project, the contract will be with Hew itt zolars Inc, and the not to exceed amount of $1,731,200. So this map shows the limits of the project. Right now we 've already performed preliminary design of the entire limits of the project starting on the West End and Woodrow and going all the way to the east end at Grissom. Right now this final design contract is only concerned with this red portion of the project from Luke 288 east to Griss om road. So the scope of the project includes widening a McKinney Street from a two lane roadway to a four lane divided road way with turn lanes and sidewalks. As part of the project we will adjust the utilities and we're also going to construct a 20 inch water transmission main from Luke 288 east to may hill road will also build range improvements to our city of didn't criteria. And right now we have a budget of $18.3 million. That's the amount of money we received from text out for the project. We've spent some of that money already on design. And unfortunately we don't expect to be able to build the entire limits of the project with the money we have. So we plan to bid the project with alternates, and then we're going to build the project starting at Luke 288 and going as far east as we can towards Grissom road. So here's a little bit of history about the project in June of 2016 text out in the city of didn't agree to turn McKin ney Street over from text out to make it a city of didn't roadways so right now we own McKinney Street, and we maintain it all the way from Elm on the west end to the eastern city limits line. Then in January 2017 text out and the city entered into an AFA and text out gave us $18.3 million to widen McK inney Street. So originally we intended to use a design build process for design and construction of the project that process includes hiring and engineering firm to be our representative and to create 30% construction plans we've done that. The next step of the process would be processing an RFQ and an RFP, and then hiring a design build team. After that, the design build team would create final construction documents and build the project simultaneously. So that was the original plan. So last year, we issued an RFQ and two engineering firms wanted to be our project representative and we chose you it's all ours to be our project representative for the project. And as of this time, they have completed creation of the 36 to 30% construction plans. So we have some options now at this point we could continue forward with the design build process and we could have Hugh at Zollers, or we could have Hugh at Zollers perform final design of the project and then bid the project with our standard solicitation process. And that's what we're leaning toward right now, we're asking you to let us move forward with allowing Hugh at Z ollers to do the final design. Instead of processing an RFQ and an RFP and hiring a design builder, we would rather, we feel like we can start construction more quickly by having Hugh at Zollers create final construction plans right now. So that's what we're requesting. We're proposing to close the Hugh at Zollers contract, not cancel it. That's wrong. Our purchasing department clarified that for me we're proposing to close the contract, and then enter into a new contract for final design. We've got a couple questions too. Okay. We're going to go with Mayor Pro Tem and then Council Member Briggs. Okay. The posting for this is for 1.641 in the contract and what you had on your presentation is for 1.731. So, it's funny the city engineer was just pointing that out to me. Yes, you are correct. There is a discrepancy. The higher number is correct. What's posted is the higher number posted or the lower number posted. Lower numbers posted. If the higher number is the one you want. I'm not so sure. Can we, can we, we can move forward with a lower number and process an addendum or I mean what's been posted is the actual that amount of number. Now the contract probably reflects a different price, the higher price, is that correct? And so it's, you can go that route or actually just high pass the item and bring it back. So the contract reflects the lower number plus an optional $90,000 to get to the total number. Okay. We recognize that there was a difference in our caption before we came here today and we thought we got it corrected. Obviously we did not. Okay. Then we could proceed with adopting the contract. However, that optional $90,000 would be excluded. So somebody, whoever makes the motion would have to exclude that portion from that contract. We would prefer to do that. That $90,000 is for services at the very end of the contract. So we can definitely move forward with most of our design without that. Again, the contract states that that $90,000 is optional. All right. Problem solved. Okay. Thank you, Mayor Portino. So far. Council Member Briggs. Yeah, could you just help me understand? Because I remember a long time ago approving the design build and that was the whole reason we did design build because it was supposed to be quicker and you get it all done without going back. And so I mean, what what happened? I mean, is this can you just tell me what happened? So I can try. I think Todd might step in. So I think originally design build was thought that it could be a more innovative process on larger, very complex projects using the design build process will allow you to introduce innovation into the project. Also, I think prior leadership thought that using the design build could shrink the schedule and and allow us to be done faster. So we proceeded down that path. And we're now at a point of the 30% design, which is which is a major milestone in the design build process. And we achieved that last month. So now we have these two. We can continue down the design process or we can do this final design contract. If we continue down the design build process, now that we 've looked at the schedule more closely, we'd have to go through a lengthy RFQ and RFP process that would end in May of 2019. I'm showing the schedule on the board right now. That that RFP and RFQ process is quite lengthy when compared to our overall project schedule on larger, more complex projects. It may not have that much an effect. It does have an effect on our schedule. And our most important point is to go start construction as soon as we can. If we give a final design contract to Huett's dollars right now, we can actually be under construction with a utility package in May rather than just finishing our RFP process and starting utility design. We can start construction of our utility package in May. And it's very important that we start spending construction money for this project because it's tied up with NETCOG giving us money and TechStalk giving us money. That's the whole reason in the beginning they thought maybe a design build would be better. Now we're at the point where we can analyze and look at the two schedule and see that we could be designing now instead of going through the RFP/RFQ process. And so that's that's the direction we would like to go down . We want to start building utilities in May. And it's very important for this project that we start spending that construction money. Yes, that's my problem. Okay. Well, I had a follow up. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. No, I'm glad that you mentioned that because it was my understanding that that's going ahead and starting the sidewalks was a little bit of that because we barely made that date and we had to do that. Absolutely. We were supposed to start spending money at the by the end of last fiscal year. So that's what we told NETCOG and our other partners. It's very important that we have these pedestrian facilities and we have this construction-based sidewalk so that we can get the children to school safely and also outside the right of way while we're building the road. So we've done that. We've made that argument to NETCOG. Some of them agree. Some of them want us to start building the road. Right. No, I'm in favor of that. In that conversation, besides the sidewalk, the talk was also to go ahead and upgrade that intersection of Mayhill and McKinney as well. Correct. And we have put in push buttons, the items that would need to go there. However, the roadways not as wide as it will be once the Mayhill McKinney widening is complete. So it's not fully done just because the roadways still got to be done. I don't see any more questions. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see your hand. Sorry. I apologize. So I have a kind of two questions. The first is just to clarify to make sure. So this cost, the cost that we would be voting on today and that additional $90,000 coming forward would all be coming from -- that would be from this money that we've gotten from TechStop. Correct. And so in the reason -- and then again to clarify -- so the reason for the difference between May and November is because that could be the difference between securing this -- working with this funding that -- There's a variety of issues at play. So there's the funding source itself. Cog takes a look at any RTR funds that were given. This project was given funds to TechStop approximately 10 years ago. Cog has a rule within themselves that says if the funds are not spent within a 10-year period, they want those funds back. Or you can have a really good plan for actually doing it. So what we've looked at and evaluated here is here's a way we can actually get this project on the ground in a defined time frame. The state when it comes to design-build projects for horizontal projects, for these types of projects that are not buildings, they're not vertical construction, has a very defined process for procuring your design-build contractor. And it does become lengthy because you have to follow those requirements. You're looking at somewhere between three to six months. Three is very quick. And that's just if you happen to get the absolute right guy , you get the right price, and you're comfortable with it. Typically what happens is you get a slew of folks responding to the request for a proposal. Then you would typically go through an evaluation of those requests, those proposals, and then you would ultimately interview each one of those groups to determine who is the company that you're going to go with long term. So getting on the ground to do utility work would probably not occur until the end of 2019, which really pushes some of the patients we're asking for out of cog at this point to continue to utilize these funds. Yeah, thank you. That just gave me a bureaucracy headache. Sorry. I was already not doing very well. But yeah, thank you. So that's obviously critical. That's critical. And thank you for explaining that. I have another question just kind of building on that to make sure that I get the right takeaway from this. 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I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. Oh, well, okay. We don't have to go through all of them. We don't have to go through all of them. I was just going to talk about the two contracts, if you're interested in that. The original amount was $1.4 million. We've spent $754 million to date. That's what Huotz-Aulers has earned, creating the 30% construction plans and doing a lot of work in the field, geotechnical work and environmental work that is required for final design. And then they also did those final plans for the construction phase sidewalks. So that's how they spent that money. Okay. The remaining money, we're going to close the contract. It's going to go back into the account, and it's going to be used to fund this contract. So I just wanted to point that out. I don't have to go through the rest. We recommend adoption of the ordinance with Huotz-Aulers in the amount of $1,731,000. But it's actually the smaller. It's the amount posted without the $90,000 option. And I think Councilmember Briggs was wanting to make a motion. Is that correct? I do want to make a motion, but I want to make it correct. So what? So Mr. City Attorney, could you just sort of clarify what the motion needs to be to be consistent with the posting, please? And I'm going to have to ask Chad, what was the $90,004 again? It's optional. It's for as-built surveying. That occurs at the very end of the project. It actually happens during construction. Everything else is part of the final design. So we can do all the final design and bid the project, and then we can add that as-built surveying in a year later. So that's what needs to be excluded in the motion. Yes. Excluding the $90,000 optional as-built in survey. As-built survey. As-built survey. Yeah. I motion that. Thank you. To approve. So let me make sure I understand your motion. Your motion is to approve this agenda item, except for you want to exclude the $90,000 that's used for as-built surveying that was an option. I certainly do. Okay. All right. So that's the motion. Council Member Hutsbill. Second. All right. We have a motion and a second with the modifications as stated. All in favor, please signify by raising your right hand. Passes unanimously. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Agenda item C, considered option of an ordinance of the City of Denton, Texas, the Texas Home Rule Municipal Corporation, authorizing the city manager to execute a professional services agreement with Kimberly Horne and Associates for the standard construction specifications, et cetera. Mayor and Council, we talked in August about the need for a standard set of construction specifications. If you remember, Chad at that meeting brought all of our specifications and we talked about how confusing it is to try to work from this book and then go to that one and then jump from one to the other. So what you have here is what we had promised that we would bring back to you, which is a contract to actually put these specifications together with an addendum to that that we're also needing a right of way ordinance, a right of way use ordinance so that we can better regulate what actually occurs in the right of way and that 's everything from what goes into the right of way and then what activities are going on in the right of way and that would be a part of this contract. So again, just recounting, I don't want to get into the g ory details. I'll be glad to if you really want me to, but the specifications are an integral part of every project that we do. It calls out very specific language on what we're building, how we're going to build it, how that gets measured and how it gets paid for, which is critical when we're working with the contractor so they can understand upfront what it is they're doing and then we don't have any misunderstanding in the field after the fact, once we've started construction, what are we doing, how are we paying for it, what's going on. Those types of confusing situations lead to a lot of discussion and change orders, which both slow down the pace of the project, it elongates the schedule because we've got to stop, rectify the misunderstanding, put in place what needs to be there, potentially put a change order together that has to go to approval and it typically includes money. It's an increase in the cost of the project right from the get go. What we're attempting to do again is to put together our own set of specifications specific for the City of Denton that also includes the construction documents that are integral to the contracts themselves. It's how we advertise the project and then how we actually execute the project as partners. What we expect to get out of that is a much better delivery process, much less confusion from start to finish when we're working with the contractor , continuing to keep projects on schedule, on time, and reduce the overall cost. One of the things that you will see in a lot of the research when it comes to how critical construction specifications are is they typically result in , on average, a confusing or unclear specification results in, I would say, about 1% increase to the total project cost. So when you think about a million dollar project, one unclear specification has the potential to net out roughly $10,000. Recent experience, we've had two projects where we're partnered with TechStat that has netted out change orders immediately out of the gate are almost $200,000. If you look at the percentage that impact had on the cost that we put into that project, it was almost a 4% increase to the project cost. So just again, as we had talked about in the original work session where we had gone through a lot of these items, we're bringing this to you for consideration today. We're going to begin work immediately, especially on the right-of-way ordinance that's critical for all the projects that we're pushing out into the field, the ones that are going now, the ones that will be going, and then how we keep this development facilitation effort going afoot and allows us to keep better tabs of everything that's going on within the right-of-way. And then we anticipate having rough drafts of those high priority specifications ready to be used for projects going out to bid next spring with the final documents coming back to council for approval as a total package next fall. So with that, we recommend approval of this entire contract for $1.0088 million. Councilman Briggs. I move approval and I'm glad to see the right-of-way ordinance in there. Go ahead. Yes, Councilman Husband. Well, second, and then if I could kick off discussion. Yeah, because I have some discussion as well. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, Kimberly Horn will be working from their Denton office. They do not have a Denton office. Okay. Got it. You still want to second that motion? I'm just kidding. Okay. I read the contract. Yes. And so these are some of my -- I don't know if I'd call them concerns, observations, curiosities. If you'll go back to the slide of what their scope of work is, your outline of it. Right there. Oh, gosh, I'm going to sneeze. Hold on a second. Excuse me. So I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. And I just figured it's 1,000 pages. It may be over 1,000 pages. Yes, sir. So I just used 1,000 pages. This is $1,000 a page, this contract is. And when I read the scope of work, I'm struggling with -- it seems like what they're going to do is have interviews with staff. We're going to give them our books. They're going to use the City of Fort Worth. I think there's something about the City of Fort Worth specs in there somewhere about they're going to use the City of Fort Worth. They have done this for the City of Fort Worth. Oh, okay. Okay, gotcha. Okay. I'm sorry I misunderstood that. So they're going to get our specs. They're going to have interviews. Then they're going to compile all that. They're going to organize it, make some edits that you guys , staff, sort of recommend and that they may recommend for different specs. Correct. Coordinate, review, revision, distribution, create online document system, train staff and consulting, contracting community. I know it's a big endeavor. Yes, sir. So I'm not discounting that at all. So I don't want to come across that way. I'm just struggling with the price. And knowing that it's an engineering firm, I know that engineering firms charge money. And it just depends on when I looked at the breakdown at least in the -- let me get to the back of my computer. When I look at the cost breakdown of the different components. Yes, sir. Hold on. I got a note here. Let me see what it says. Okay. Okay, here it is. You know, it's got a breakdown. It's in the contract. I don't even know what page it is. But it seems like the lion's share of it is technical specifications of $525,000. $42,000 is the right-of-way ordinance. So that's pretty nominal. Correct. But then I look -- so I'm just really wrestling with that. You know, I mean, does it take $150, $200 an hour engineers to sort of help collate this, organize it? I mean, it's not -- it's engineering services, but it's not what I think of as engineering services in the sense of, you know, you're looking at civil plans. You're figuring loads. You're making sure that people are building things. So it's not a criticism. It's just -- I'm struggling with it. So help me understand not that it's not a big undertaking. I get that. I just don't know why it's costing a million dollars to do it. So there's a variety of ways to answer that question, and they all come back to -- it's way more efficient to get to where we need in a very quick fashion. No, I'm not suggesting that staff do it. Right. I'm not suggesting that at all. And part of what we're dealing with here is you've got several ways to answer that. So help me clarify where we need to go to help. One of the ways to look at this is if you go by that just 1 % in total construction dollars that result in change orders due to unclear specifications -- and we've already seen 4.5 %, 4% on two current projects. Yeah. So we are about to push out in 2019 $120 million worth of construction projects that will all be impacted by these specifications. Are those construction projects that somebody else is doing or those that we're doing? City of Denton construction projects relating to the 2014 bond, RTR funds, all the projects we've been talking about over the last year and making sure they're fully funded and whole ready to go. Those projects benefit from these specifications. So if we can reduce the net just right out of the box, 1% of that cost of that $120 million that goes to construction more than covers the cost of the effort to get this done. And I appreciate that methodology. I don't know if I totally buy into that. Okay. So if it's costing $1 million because we've got to get it done quickly, I understand that. I just -- when I think about what the job is, it just seems like it's more of a, hey, take our stuff that we already have. Don't necessarily make sure that it's all correct. Sure. But organize it, which is very -- I mean, that's allotable. We need to do that. I mean, we should have done it before now. It's hard for me to understand how it's a million dollar, so that's just what I'm struggling with. And there's probably not an answer that's going to give me some total satisfaction. There may not be, but one thing I would add to this contract is that this is an hourly not to exceed contract. Right. So what we have is an estimate on what we think in the worst case, this would run. But what they're billing us is only on the hours they actually spend on this project. So it's very conceivable that as long as we keep internal staff from arguing and drawing the process out, everybody comes to the table facilitating that discussion. So we agree on what goes into each one of those items because there's a lot of particulars in there. What does the water operations group want in the form of valves and just the nuts and the bolts that tie different fittings together that has a long-term bearing on how often we're out there fixing different pipes and materials? There's discussion on just those items that can take time just to get everybody in the same vein. And we won't convince everybody. At some point, somebody will just say, nope, that's it. So they facilitate that process as well. Okay. All right, so they're facilitators on trying to get us to agree amongst ourselves. What's the best practices? Is that what I'm hearing? Some of it. Yes. Okay. Some of it's very clear cut. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just again, I'm just really struggling with with that. So that's that's good. I appreciate it. I mean, honestly, I wanted to ask for what are the hourly breakdowns that these that these particular each one of these have. But and there was a level of effort put together. We asked that very specifically of this consultant as we do with all consultants. How many hours do you anticipate going into each one of the items need to go into this overall endeavor? So that was generated. We have done that. And that's where these numbers came from. So this is so this really isn't a negotiation. This is what they said. I mean, we didn't say it didn't come back at one point to me and said, you know what? We can't do that. You got to pair it down. We did review the hours involved and they do seem reasonable. Plus, we are looking at this from the standpoint of this is a time and materials contract. Yeah, it could. It's not to exceed. I get that. OK, fantastic. Councilmembers. OK. Well, just to let you know, only for symbolic reasons, I'm probably going to vote against it just because I can't figure out how we spend that much money doing this. So it's not anything against staff or anything like that. It's just I'm having a hard time when it comes to the type of work that we're doing and we're asking them to do. So just just to let you know, it's nothing nothing about the presentation or anything like that. All right. Any other cut? Mayor Potem. If I remember right on our work session, can you go over how this is funded through the various projects that we have? So originally, the idea was to fund this through the actual projects that would be benefiting from this directly. Working with budget and finance, the answer that we got when we went back and talked to them about actually setting all this up was they can't do that directly with bond funds . So it is general funded for some of it. Some of its water and wastewater funding, which is why we went to be yesterday or previously. Okay. Any comments, questions? Somebody made a motion and somebody wasn't the motion already made and seconded. Yes. Yes. Who made the motion? Yes. And then House member Husband seconded. Yes. Yeah. And I pointed out that their office in Denton is not here. Okay. Yeah. All right. So we have a motion and a second. Any more discussion? All in favor. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. I apologize. Just going to point out this pays back in 10 months, something like that. Yes, sir. Okay. Yeah. Well, I understand that rationale, but that doesn't always work out that way. But that's all right. But that's that's fine. Yeah, I appreciate you pointing that out. So we have a motion and a second. All in favor, please sign ify by raising your right hand. All opposed by like sign. Motion carries six to one. All right. Agenda item three D. Consider approval of a resolution of the city of Denton creating an advisory committee to consider an advice city council on disability concerns such as accessibility and accommodations. Repealing resolution to zero seven. I'm sorry. 2007 dash oh three oh which previously established Denton's committee of people with disabilities and providing an effective day. Good evening mayor members of the council. Very brief presentation. Just wanted to give you a little bit of history about the committee with citizens disabilities. When I presented about a month ago, covered a little bit of the history regarding this process and back in October 2007 and a mayor's committee on disability was created by by former mayor back in October 2007. That committee grew to a large number of individuals that were committed to make a difference in the community that met over a number of years and made a difference in our community by working with DCTA. They also sponsored a number of events in our community. One of those is white cane day. But as of October 2014 they made they had their last meeting in the fall of that year. And since then they have not met to date and so an inquiry was made earlier this summer about establishing a committee or at least getting some research on a committee with for citizens with disabilities staff did some research actually came to find out that we had had established one prior but but it had not met, as I mentioned, for a number of years so we provided that background and an informal staffer. We provided an informal staff report to the council on the Friday packet in late August. And then we followed up with a work session just at a month ago and went over briefly the history of that committee to give counsel, some information on that on that on that effort. So based on the consensus of council, after debate and some conversations with you all. You all decided that to move forward to establish a lever and 11 member committee. Seven of those would be individually appointed by you all and then the floor at large. So, based on the scope of that, the scope of that committee . It would be to advise city, city staff and city council on those areas where the city is involved with a number of construction projects primarily in our areas for our sidewalks and ramps we're also working through creating an ADA transition plan that you all approved contract a few meetings ago. We have a number of other activities and programs and projects related to our parks apartment, our own facilities as we're upgrading those and making minor improvements here at City Hall and some of the other public facing facilities to make it more accessible to folks with disabilities, and certainly work with our area partners whether it's DCTA again, or some of those other agencies that we have relationships with to advise them and give some guidance as to how they can make their programs and facilities more ADA compliant and more friendly to folks with disabilities. So if you if you decide to move forward with this resolution. We reestablish it with the committee with the resolution you have before you. So moving forward, one of the things we do we work with the city secretary's office here in the last few days of the month to revise the boards and commission application, work with public communications office and and other folks to promote that committee the process of that of the application process get nominations during the month of November, bring forward to you. So before you again is, we recommend that you establish this committee by approving the resolution that's before you and also repealing resolution 2007 dash oh three oh, so that we can move this process forward. If you have a question for staff let's ask it but we have three cards and public speakers wishing to speak so if it's discussion. I'd like to go ahead and bring the public to speak if that's okay. Okay. Thank you. Any questions for staff at least. Okay. All right. Thank you. Our first individual be Tim Swenson. Yes, sir. My name is Tim Swenson 300 West of sweet one on one. And I just want to make sure that y'all know that disability advisory committee would be very beneficial to you because I think it would help to make sure that you know about all ADA. The guidelines would help anybody that has any issues. You said that the committee dissolved many years ago, or whatever you want to put it. And I think maybe the amount of dissolved because I like some of my friends that may be disabled currently, my last caregivers, and if I lose caregivers, that could have been the issues right there. And that's maybe why they didn't arise right there is maybe just colossal communication. And that's part of the issues right there is getting the DCJ and things like that. But if you were to have this committee, I want to be one of the advocates for that and I want to be one of the nominees for the situation. And I want to be a strong advocate for the community for the situation. And do you have any questions regarding this. Any questions . Yeah, yes, yes. Yes. This is kind of our de facto version of a public hearing. I just want to say thank you for your advocacy and activism for years and years on on this issue. And you've really taught me a lot of what I know and, and how broad a category disabilities is also how much it covers so thank you. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Thank you so much. You bet. Next speaker will be Henry Jason, you'll come state your name and address your time will begin. And what's the time, Jennifer is it three minutes. Well that might have been public I think that was public comment. So, yeah, my name is Henry Jason. I live at 2012 Hemingway Drive here in Denton. Last time I spoke in front of your group I mentioned the term temporarily able body. I do not want to keep you longer than the time that's allotted for fear that you may become disabled if you don't eat soon. Perhaps a bad joke, but the responsibility for being disabled is yours. You need to know what the morality of interpreting the law is it's not just writing a law that's important. It's the intent that I specifically am concerned with. I want you to look at your neighbor and say, What can I do for you. My moral obligation has always been do for my neighbor, do for them equally that they can have the access. You know perhaps it's my interpretation of advocacy some people walk around with placards. Some people protest they march in the street. The reality of it is, I inform people, I educate people, I work with people, I want you to understand my motives and hopefully you will have the same motivation to help the people within the community. The reality of helping someone in a position where you can be their friend, where you can be their social worker, where you can say, this is where you can go for dinner, this is how you get around town. What can I do for you. There's nothing more important to me than being able to help someone. So in that regard, I want to thank each and every one of you for allowing us to come forward and I don't speak for the disabled community, I speak for myself. I want to thank you for allowing me to present to you the impassioned plea to help the disabled people within this community. Thank you. Do you have any questions? Any questions, comments? Yes, Councilmember Armitage. You always have questions. You know me well, that's true. Yeah, I wanted to say also to thank you. You are actually the one who came to me. I believe that's how we met with the proposal. You said, I think it was a question, do we have a committee on disabilities and if not, I want one. Can you do that? I feel this was just one of the, just a great example of government working really well. A great idea in the grassroots that comes to an elected representative and then goes to staff and the passion from a number of people on staff behind this, not just the work, but the passion and the work to bring this to us once again to kind of retrace the history, see what went wrong. So I'm really proud of this whole process at every level, which began in the grassroots just with a simple question, a simple ask. So thank you so much for that. Any other comments, questions? Thank you very much. Thank you so much for coming out. Last speaker will be Clay Thurman. You'll come state your name and address. Your time will begin. Clay Thurman, 1524 Snyder. And first off, I want to say, I think you all left the best for last that you can end on a high note by approving this commission. And I'm very gratified for all the comments that we've been getting from you and experiences working with Mario and other staff members. So going back to over a year ago, when I first started advocating with Kevin Roden, and then after Kevin left, went to Gerard and Gerard went to Todd. And we got one more handicap parking space on the square in front of the Hickory building where there was a poorly marked out and designed parking place that was one standard parking place and then two thirds of a parking place. And it was such an easy no brainer. Let's fix this. And that space is very used. Sometimes when we go to use that space, we have to drive around the block a bunch of times. And the last time we went there, we had to wait for somebody to back out. We went in and as we left, somebody was waiting for us to get back out. And that particular building houses several physical therapists and other people. And I've seen many other people use that. But everybody in all the discussions that we've had and the discussions I followed with you all here. I'm very proud to be a dent and I. This is a community that's going to stand up. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Any questions or comments for the speaker. Just want to make sure. Okay. Oh, yes. Member Hutzpah. Yeah, no, I just want to I just want to thank you for for bringing that to the front and then staff is it makes all our jobs really easy. But it takes a good set of eyes like yours to bring forth those experiences. So really appreciate that. Yeah, that's one of the things that I would like to see on the committee is that one of the reasons for having it is that you're going to see from the eye. The view level of a disabled person, whether it's mobility, sight impaired, hearing impaired. Middle challenges, whatever you're going to start receiving some of that input and seeing what some of the things that many of us take for granted. So thank you very much. Thank you. Okay. Any questions for staff or. Councilmember Meltzer. Yeah, I'm just curious. Mr. City manager if you've if you've given some thought to who the liaison might be to this committee. Actually, I have. It's not myself. Actually, what we were thinking is Mark Ol iphant I think you may have met him before he's our bike pit coordinator, and he works at hand in glove with with engineering and, and our streets department and a lot of our folks in the in our organization, especially with our major emphasis on sidewalks and replacing broken and broken sidewalks and adding as we knew adding new sidewalks and, and all the ramps that we're working towards. He's heavily involved with the transition plan. So he'd be he'd be the main liaison, but working with human resources, whether it's issues related to, again, just the interfacing with the public and some of our, some of our forward facing areas for for the community along with our facilities department when it comes to our facilities or buildings parks department when it comes to parks and trails and things that nature so he won't be doing it alone he'll be well res ourced and any commitments that he has as far as our needs that he has regarding facilitating the recommendations of this of this committee, as they are brought forward will be their support. Those efforts. Great. Thank you. I move approval. Second. Okay, we have a motion and a second for agenda item 3d. We'll just, we'll go ahead and I think he's going to take a take a vote. All in favor please signify by raising your right hand. All in favor by seeing five or eight in your right hand. Okay, motion carries unanimously. Thank you, thank you. All right, now we have concluding items, including items. Yes, Councilmember. I just have one. So I want to, I want to thank Chief Dixon for coming out on Sunday to a district to meeting. It went really well as heavily attended and he was there for two hours and spoke openly and honest without a presentation, and in that conversation he did mention legislative things and so I would ask staff to talk with him about getting about which items, the police department and the PD may need to add to our legislative agenda as those conversations are going on. Right, that it. Yeah. That's it. That's it. Okay. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna just go back and forth. Councilmember husband. So, there's, there's a few but super short so I had opportunity to for the first time to attend geezer Palooza. And that was fantastic this weekend I really like it when as a as a community. The closing down of the streets and kind of those festivals we do is really is just a great vibe and so I really enjoyed myself there. Casa in town for the. And so, thanks to CBB for coordinating that and I hope we made a tremendous impression on them but it was really neat to see that effect that went by the hotel kind of just to kind of see how they had it set up and everything to interact and I thought that was fantastic. Right. It's a love it or hate it, it's here. So, 29 Bucke yes opens, and they're having a first responders day which I think is fantastic. I'm really excited I had an opportunity to go out and and visit and tour the property to see what some some unique things are there and and so I appreciate them. And that's base is fantastic behind there just that green space that they maintain them and they've really done a lot for our community in that regard as far as you know keeping it is is separated as possible and working within that. And then I want to to Roddy Walpers family. So I went out to that Memorial Sunday and visited with his wife and just kind of just kind of spoke with her for a bit so my thoughts and prayers with them. I was invited by East Oaks neighborhood, and they have their annual meeting and so it was good just to kind of fellowship with them and and talk about neighborhood issues . I want to update on the zero energy house and one, one direction to kind of guide you. They have Tesla battery walls in those houses and some other things technology things that I think would be pretty neat so when those conversations come forth, that's kind of what I'm targeting there's some some technology advancement things that I think we could we could pull from from them, and then I would ask staff also to look at lastly, is there, I'd like to know your thoughts on maybe a nonprofit management position and I'm thinking, whatever that looks like right because we have. So with the with the parks board, looking for management and then inevitably staff helps them out and then you'll have other departments. So I wonder if there's one kind of pool resource that we could pull from or establish that then people schedule time with and kind of manage it that way so we're not dividing each and so I don't know what that looks like but that's just a thought to have maybe a resource available to you. These hours schedule time, and you know, kind of manage it that way so I'm not sure if that that works but that's my thought. Thank you. Mayor pro tem. Thank you, Mayor. I just have one, I'm not quite sure which way to go at this one but we received in our backup. A couple of weeks ago on a Friday report about T's Lee in Dallas drive construction small project. And I would like probably a follow up on a traffic flow plan, dealing with the fact that if Lillian Miller slash 28 8 gets closed down at any point at text dot. That's where most of that traffic is going to come through that project is set to start November 15. The T's Lee in Dallas drive, approximately November 15 will start construction on 377 text that will. If they have any closures making sure that that intersection at T's Lee in Dallas is, is that full capacity fully available, just kind of a plot. Let us know some, some of the planning the traffic control planning that's that's going on on that so that we can reassure our constituents if something goes on. Some of y'all may remember a few years back when we had Lillian Miller shut down one lane at some time, T's Lee was and that was a fias co and I want to avoid that at all costs. Okay, great. Councilmember armature. So I have two issues that I would like to see. One is a staff report. The others I just like to see if if it could be done. I'll start with the latter. Both involve homeless homelessness and and and housing issues. The one is that our libraries. End up having a lot of face time with the local homeless population and getting to know certain people really well. And I think it would be great. And I apologize for not having thought of this earlier this was actually presented to me by someone who's a librarian. I think it'd be great if we had representative from the library on our shelter committee. I know that that shelter committee that that's already in process. I think that they would be able to provide a lot. And I've mentioned before. Also, how, how great it would be if we could have somebody who is currently experiencing homelessness on that on that committee in the planning stage I know at first that that that didn't end up happening. But maybe now that that committee's more established. If, if that issue could just be brought to that committee and they could decide. Maybe they have a different view. The second issue is a staff report, I would love that I would like to request. This is very much along the same lines as the MHMR staff report that I had requested. In this case, this is about C umberland Children's Home. They, they have 17 acres. Beautiful land. And they have four. Homes. And they're already that they use to house single parents, and they're in the children provide all kind of services through the home. And so I would love if the staff could kind of reach out to them talk to them and come up with some sort of staff report like the MHMR one about kind of to see if they have any suggestions as to how the city could help out to use that that that land and to partner with them to fill to provide for some of our housing need. Great. Anybody else, because my mouth. He said, but he doesn't already know early voting is on. Right here at the Civic Center. Also Kimberly also ropes and rancher the lines any shorter. Not very short but you got a great restaurant there if you want to do something after make a trip. League of Women Vot ers website has good information. There's a lot of important state and county races on the ballot and I would say, you know, it's the second most important election, other than city elections in May. I don't know who who are second item I don't know who are direct. They might want to, you know, add a stop. Bucky's that shift change times. Okay. Councilmember breaks one comment. If you do not want him to return your email. If anybody wants to know, it's you ask him if you can bring your dog to counsel. So, yeah, I'm not sure what that's all about. I wanted to bring my dog today to counsel to comfort me and to warm my feet up and no response. Okay. All right. I figured I was getting a hard time. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Any other comments questions. All right, if not we'll conclude this portion of our city council meeting we will now go into a closed session again. Let me. Where's the cheat sheet. There it is. Closed session consultation with attorneys under Texas government code section 551.071 deliberations regarding personnel matters under Texas government code section 551. 074 will take about a five minute break, and there are leftovers if anybody.