Oct 16, 2018 City Council on 2018-10-16 2:00 PM

I'd like to welcome everyone. We do have a quorum present. This is the City Council Work Session. It is Tuesday, October 16th, and it is 2.01 p.m. The first item on our agenda is citizens' comments on cons ented agenda items. Do we have any blue cards? Okay. We'll move on to requests for clarification on agenda items . Council Member Briggs. Item I. I have a few questions about this. I guess the one, is this in any way related to the work session item that we're speaking of today, or is this different right of ways? Is the first question. Do you want me to just keep asking my questions? Okay. Item I is dealing with the purchase of trees. It's a tree contract, so we can buy trees for installation. The presentation I'm assuming you're talking about is the median enhancement. If any trees would be planted on that, they could be purchased from that tree contract. That contract is for trees that are put in all the parks. Any city property. And it's not specific to any project? No. As of yet. No, it's just a general. And so in the description it says, Parks Department Tree Mitigation Fund. Is this the same as the Tree Mitigation Fund that we have in the city, or is this a separate fund? That's the same. It's the same? Yeah. Okay, so it's 1.2 million it had in the contract for trees. That's the total contract over the term. And how many trees would that be for? Let's see. Well, it depends on what tree you buy, because not all trees are the same price. And do we have, yeah, I just. For parks specifically, it's estimated at 2,000 trees, a little over 2,200 trees that could be planted during that timeframe. That's an up to, that doesn't mean we're going to spend all of that. Okay. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. I would like to have item I pulled, please. Okay. Do you need a presentation on it at the time, or just for a separate vote? Well maybe a little presentation, because this is a, it's a lot of money for some trees. And I know that there was some questions about using the Tree Fund for trees and irrigation. I don't know if this includes irrigation or if that's separate funding for that. There were some median projects that I don't know that everyone on council agreed with trees going in using the Tree Fund. So just a brief presentation maybe. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? No. Anyone else have any questions? All right. If not, we will move on to item three, work session reports . Item, item A, receive a report from city staff on Hickory and Railventures staff regarding the Stoke Dentons annual report. Good afternoon, Mayor Pro Tem and council members. I'm Caroline Booth, Director of Economic Development, and I 'm going to be talking to you today about Stoke Denton and its annual report, as well as the contract renewal with Hickory and Railventures, which is the entity that is managing the Stoke space. As you're all familiar, Stoke is an economic development program of the city of Denton that's designed to support local entrepreneurs and home grown startups as they build their businesses and create jobs in our community that help keep our best and brightest right here in Denton. Currently, there are 59 businesses and individuals that are Stoke members with a total of 76 employees that are working out of the space. What we're going to do first is have a quick overview of H ickory and Railventures management of the Stoke Denton Entrepreneur Center, including hearing directly from Marshall Culpepper, who is the founder and owner of Hickory and Railventures, and then I'll be asking for your direction on renewal of the contract with Hickory and Railventures. We'll start out, as we always do, with a little bit of background. There was a competitive RFP process for management of the Stoke space last year, about this time, and that RFP allowed for the city to take in a wide range of types of proposals to give insight into what the market would bear. The proposals that we received were evaluated on the business model in the proposal as a whole, not just the price alone, and the evaluation committee members were the city manager, deputy city manager, city attorney, director of finance, chief technology officer, purchasing manager, and the director of economic development. Hickory and Railventures presented a plan and a pro forma that both reduced the city's fiscal commitment and offered Stoke a path to sustainability as a standalone operation. And when HRVs, I'm going to call them HRV just for short here, when their contract was approved in 2017, the city itself prepared a pro forma that showed a total savings of over $241,000 to the city over three years of a contract with Hickory and Railventures. No city funds are spent on the contract with Hickory and Railventures, and I will be covering what our fiscal obligations are to the Stoke space in a couple of slides later, but I just want to be very clear that no city funds are spent on the contract with Hickory and Railventures. The contract specifies deliverables and metrics in the categories of members, marketing, programming, and partnerships, and there are at least monthly check-ins between me and HRV staff to make sure that we are meeting contract metrics and are on top of different types of projects and opportunities for collaboration. I can tell you today that HRV has met all of their contract terms so far, and I do also want to remind everyone that their contract is in effect until November 30th of this year, so we're not quite to the end of the contract term, but we wanted to go ahead and bring you this information so that we could discuss how to move forward with the renewal at the council's pleasure. So at this point in time, I'm going to invite Marshall Cul pepper, the owner and founder of Hickory and Railventures, to join us at the podium, and he is going to run through a presentation with you and be available for your questions , and then I will come back to wrap it up. Come on, Marshall. You're welcome. Sorry, let me get your presentation up for you. Thank you. Okay, there you go. Can you guys hear me okay? I'm not sure I need this. Hi, I'm Marshall. I'm a techie nerd. I love software. I've been writing software for about 20 years now. I got into startups and helping startups grow early in my career. I was really fortunate to be able to join a small startup that at the time had about 30 employees writing some software known as open source software, and the idea, which was totally counterintuitive at the time, was you could give away software for free and somehow make money on it, and in fact, this company not only proved that you could make money, they proved you could make a lot of money. They, within two and a half years of me joining, grew to about 300 or 400 people and got acquired by a really large public company called Red Hat for $350 million. When that happened to me, I realized there's something here , startups and entrepreneurs, there's a lot of new ideas coming out and there's a lot of new economic development that can happen because of that. I was kind of addicted from early in my career from being in the startup space. I've been in about five startups now and I run my own here as well called Cubos, but a big picture is that what tech can do and what high growth startups can do for a city's economy are incredible and we have something really special here in Denton that I think can really create a very unique culture and economy. Let's see, how do I change on this? There we go. Let me tell you a little bit about my vision for the future of Denton. As you all probably know, Denton is an amazing creative culture. We have a great music scene, a great art scene and everyone who is here and lives here knows what's special and unique about Denton. If you could get a little closer to the mic, my light comes on and means that you can't hear. Is that better? There we go. Everyone here knows what's special and unique about Denton, but to just summarize, a really great creative culture that's really cemented by major colleges that have an incredible amount of talent and new students always pouring into our city. But the problem is that most of these students, they seek jobs outside of Denton. They go work for companies in Dallas or further out California, whatever. And a lot of them, especially the entrepreneurial types, go seek funding elsewhere. What we want to do is create a self-sustaining ecosystem that doesn't just sustain but also is a positive feedback loop of growth where essentially we take the ideas of a book called Startup Communities which is modeled after a city called Boulder, Colorado, which has 120,000 people 45 miles north of Denver, Colorado, and 60, 000 students. I don't know if those numbers sound similar to you, but they sound pretty similar to me. This city is the tech hub of Colorado. They have millions and millions in venture capital available for startups in that space. And that model is one that communities all over the US are starting to follow. And my vision for what I'm trying to do, whether it's with Stoke or anything, is along these lines. I want to give you guys this sort of backdrop of what I'm trying to do. It's about building entrepreneurs and startups that self-s ustain that the company's employees start new startups. The university students stay here, start their companies here, and employ new people here, attract new businesses, attract new people to come. But ultimately, it's a self-sustaining ecosystem that's around education, technology, investment, and very, very crucially, the city's support is what we need. So I won't belabor the point. So what have we done as we've taken over Stoke in the last year? Well, the yellow line on bottom is what we projected we would do. The red is what we actually did. As you can see, we've actually beat our expectations for growth over the year. We're well over 60 members now. And we are well over 50% of tech and tech-enabled members. And these numbers are growing all the time. We have just started to see some of the real benefits of some of the spending that we've been doing in marketing and advertising and increasing our membership. We're really excited about not just bringing people into the space, but obviously about helping them start their business and making them successful. So I'd like to tell you a few cool stories. One is a startup called Cortex Therapy, which you guys may have heard of or may know. I think they recently won an award at the Mayor and City Council breakfast for what they're doing with speech pathology therapy in a software application on a mobile phone. This team is literally from UNT, three entrepreneurs that came out of grad school at UNT who had a business idea, won a pitch competition about a year ago. We called them up and said, "Hey guys, we have this amazing program. Come check us out." Well, they became members right away, like the next month. And within about a month of them joining, we gave them direct financial support so that they could go to a few different funding conferences and actually pitch their ideas and meet new investors. We offered them all kinds of new opportunities to seed their business and they've continued to be successful. They've had recently they began their trial in partnership with UNT and we're just really excited about that team. They're in a lot of ways the epitome of what we're trying to do. Councilmember Briggs has a question. Would you mind making your screen full size for the people at home so they can see that? I know keyboard shortcuts better than I do. Do you know where the full screen is? Thank you. Control L is usually Control F. Okay. And I have a question about UNT. Do you consider UNT like a competitor in certain ways or just a complete 100% partner? There's co-op petition going on for sure, if you know what I'm saying. There are aspects of what UNT does that I would say we overlap, but the strengths of our mutual groups I think are enough to overcome that. I mentioned that I have an open source background earlier. In fact, that's the biggest driver of open source software is giant competitors working together on common source code. And so the idea that you can be competitors but still collaborate. And this is one we've taken pretty seriously. I'll tell you a little bit more about what we were doing at UNT because I think it's really exciting here in just a few slides. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Our events have been great. We've had over 60 events in just the last 10 months since we've taken over management. In the future, Game Dev Jam, I don't know if you know those guys. They're a great little game company here on the square. They do amazing VR and applications in games. And they did a study with like a custom, what do you call it, a treadmill. And they were visualizing what it would be like if you could do physical therapy and virtual reality while on a treadmill. It was actually a medical grade study that was an SBIR grant. And that all took place, that entire study, in our space. We had open day-to-day with UNT. UNT is continuing to do multiple events with us as part of our partnership. And we've really got most of the major universities here doing both events and renting space and all kinds of stuff. It's so great. Now, TWA, NCTC are all doing great stuff. And we just kicked off a really great new event series, which I'm excited about. It's called the Fireside Chat. One of the things that's like really important in entrepreneur culture is your storytelling. I mean, we're all humans. We're all storytellers. We need to know the origin story. We need to know how did you get there? How did you get to be awesome? And so everyone probably knows Armadillo or has at least heard of Armadillo Ale Works. They've suffered some real trials getting where they are. And they're not done yet. But hearing that story is so important for entrepreneurs because they need to know that getting through adversity means that there is reward on the other side. But crucially, and this is one of the big highlights I'd like you all to take away, is that we just launched a new investor group called the Denton Angels. And this is the first of its kind group in Denton. This is an investor group, which we have investor groups in Denton, but very specifically focused on tech and high growth companies, investment in early stage tech companies. And this is a crucial component of our ecosystem to enable tech entrepreneurs to be able to raise money locally and take their apps and ideas to fruition and really crucially to the next stage, which would be more employees, more offices , obviously economic development for all of us. We've only really got started mid this year, early mid this year, and we've already made two startup investments from this group. We have a goal of investing roughly between 150 and 250K annually in startups. And we have over 10 accredited investors in this group already. We actually meet here in the City Council. Yeah, go ahead. Councilmember Romper. Feel free to finish the sentence first. Oh, I was just saying we meet here at the City Council conference room. So it's fun. It's a great group. So where can we go to find the list of accredited investors ? Right now the people that have disclosed their membership are all on the Denton Angels website, and we have a press release that was just released a few days ago with some of the people that have disclosed their membership. It is a private group, so we don't expect that everyone does this, but it's, you know, the ones that are in it are publicly disclosed. And how many have disclosed? How many out of how many? I believe it's five. I would have to go check to make sure, but I believe it's five. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. And sorry, and 10 plus, do you happen to know offhand exactly how many? So we have new potential members coming at every meeting and in different states of commitment, whether they've actually fully joined or not. So I say 10 plus. We have 10 as a hard number. We have anywhere between four and six that are actively considering also being additional members. And we have a group that the membership numbers are fluct uating pretty frequently. Oh, okay. So these are not necessarily people who have put money down , but have made a commitment? Yes. And the way it works is just a real brief overview of angel groups is that there's no commitment from any individual member cash-wise when they come into the group to a specific startup. They can look at startups and make their own individual decisions whether or not they want to invest. And there's a group consensus that usually forms around a startup, but it's not always every investor in the group that invests. The crucial part of this group that, going back to the circle that I'm trying to build, is that the way that we structured Denton Angels was that the membership fee for the angel group is a virtual co-working membership in Stoke. And that's not about my revenue. That's about embedding investors in the tech entrepreneur community and literally making them sit down and mentor these entrepreneurs and getting to know them. And so we have a requirement not only that they have that membership, but they teach at least one every year event, one event to our entrepreneurs on the thing that they are an expert at. Because if they are successful and they're an expert at something, the odds are people want to learn about it. And so we want our members and the community at large to benefit from these investors being in our community. And so for us, it's a pay it forward sort of attitude that we've really started this group with. Another quick side story, I know I'm running long on time, I'll try to speed it up. UpVenture is a group that actually didn't start in Denton. They started as a group all over the Metroplex. And they found Stoke and decided to move their business to Stoke. Just adjoining about a year ago, we started the Denton Angels Group and they are one of the two investments that I listed earlier as a successful investment from this community. So not only have we started an investment group here, we've actually invested in a Denton startup that came to Denton to build their business. And this company is a really popular app for people that like adventure, like hiking and kayaking and all that kind of stuff. They have over 500,000 users on their mobile application. And they were just promoted a few weeks ago. They had a big promotion event at Stoke that co-shot with Fox's Last Man Standing TV show. The TV, the Last Man Standing app has their logo on it. They promote it through the social media and they stream, live stream the debut of the first episode at Stoke as a corporate party. It was a lot of fun. So these are photos actually from the party at Stoke. Let's talk about partnerships. So crucially for us, the big entities that we are looking to partner with are the source of new blood in our city. The UNT and TWU and NCTC, these are the big players that are really the lifeblood of this economy. And we early on, even before we had a proposal, we sought partnerships and got those figured out. But ever since the last year, we've had a ton of things happen with these partners. So crucially, the UNT Murphy Center has now signed up as a premier member of the Denton Angels group. So John McCary, who runs the Murphy Center for Entreprene urship at UNT is one of the Denton Angel groups. He has a background in venture capital, has done lots of venture capital deals and startups, and saw what we were doing and decided to get really invested in putting money and resources here in Denton. There was a press release just a few days ago about that. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to put it in the slide deck. Heather, our executive director here, who's also got her newborn, who's cute as heck, is on the advisory council for the TWU Center for Business, or for Women in Business. And she has been just a sort of a force of nature getting T WU to come work with us as well. Everyone likes to talk about UNT, but TWU is doing quite a lot there as well. And lastly, the TechMill sort of open community here that we have has had several events at our space and will host a new conference at Stoke later this year. You know, we've really put a big focus on advertising and marketing and trying to figure out where the right ROI for getting new members in this space is going to be. We spent over $5,000 this year in marketing. And as you can see in the bar graph below, we've over 10x'd our conversion rate of people entering information into our website, coming in for tours. And that's all reflected well, I think, in our membership numbers. We're still trying to get the hard information about the right amount to spend and when to spend it and on what platform. But we are seeing tangible results from spending money on advertising, and we're only going to get better as we hyper-focus in on the right model. Some of the press, this is just kind of fun. We were really covered in all the major local tech and business blogs and places. Launched DFW, didn't record Chronicle, UNT, we didn't do it . And this latest one was also in the Dallas Innovates. We've had several in each of those. Here's our team. I'm the owner and founder. I'm just like the pretty guy with the vision and I'm not that pretty anymore. I'm getting old. I got gray hair, I don't know. But I've got an amazing team behind me. Heather is the leader of our team. Sherry and Lacey are just incredible and they have really put a lot of life and passion into this space and I'm deeply indebted to them for the amazing job that they're doing. So let's talk about where we're putting money because ultimately to make this space sustainable and to get it out of the city's hands, crucially to get it off the budget, we need to be able to make this business stand on its own two feet. And that's been my goal since day one is if you're trying to teach entrepreneurs how to start a business, you should probably be able to start a business. And so this thing needs to be sustainable on its own terms. That's a really high important thing for me. So what we did this year, we put on new garage door screens , we ran ethernet to all three conference rooms, we've added VUIP phone systems so people can do conference calls, and we've added outdoor picnic tables and umbrellas. But our next plans are much more ambitious now that we've got some momentum going. We're gonna be adding pretty aggressively new office space all over the space. And we've already been in discussion with Caroline and the rest of the city staff about these plans and getting permissions for these plans. Phase one will begin work almost immediately as soon as we can get finalized proposals. We've already got sign off from the Martina Group, the owners of that building. And the basic idea here is that we're seeing a huge growth in demand for both dedicated desk space and dedicated offices. So we're gonna start transitioning the space into more private office use and the community space will move more towards our event space. The TLDR that you need to know, the big picture is that these new offices will enable new levels of revenue that wouldn't have been possible in the current configuration. Oh, and I also would like to have a Stokes sign just so people know where the heck we are. All you can see is a spiral from that street. We have a lot of events on our roadmap. I highly recommend come check out our startup crawlits in a few weeks. You're welcome to come look and see all the different startups that Denton has to offer. Come see what they're doing, like really get your hands on and get a feel for what these companies are doing. A ton of innovative companies here in Denton. We bring investors here to show them what Denton and Denton startups are doing. And they decide they want to invest from Houston in these little Denton startups. And you guys, we've got some really, really creative, unique companies here and they really are the future of our city. Come check that out. That starts at, well, it starts at my other company, Cubos, but anyway, I won't belabor that. We have a business conference that we're doing with the GD AC and the Denton Economic Development Group. So we'll be partnering up with Caroline and we'll be doing a multi-location, two-track business conference here in Denton. Basically just walk across the train tracks to get between the two tracks. And we're working on our mentor program and we're starting that workshop series that I referenced earlier. Let's talk a little bit about our projected growth. So today we're at about 119K in revenue. We've had 46% growth in our member base. We're looking to roughly do 100K of increase in revenue year over year for the next two years. It may not be quite as linear as this, but that's the end goal. The real target here is to be sustainable again. So what we're going to be taking on ultimately is the full cost of the city's lease at the end of the lease term. And so we are projecting and budgeting and planning to make that a reality. And so at the end of this two years and three months or whatever the rest of this lease term is, we will be aggressively growing the space to meet those goals. We have, I think the track record from this year shows that it's possible and we're only going to continue pouring fuel on that fire. Okay. Council Member Amador. How much do you plan on increasing membership and space use fees annually to meet those projections? Great question. So we do, you're right, but it's just minimal. So for example, in our dedicated office, our dedicated des ks today, they cost 250. By the end of the third year, they'll be 300. So there'll be about 10 or 20% increase over the next few years. But the majority of the revenue increase will come from increased capacity with new offices and new dedicated space. So it will help the price increases, but it won't be the major. And so, and that increased private use space translates into a decreased public use space that you said is moving elsewhere? Actually, well, not exactly. So and I can show you because I didn't really get to cover this. But as you can see here, this is where our events, our event stages and this is our event space. So we are turning that into a mixed use common seating. So we'll actually have more room here for common seating than we do now, but it'll be mixed use. And so the concept we're going with is something along the lines of what you might have seen in Banter or Cryptozoology, where you've got a very vibey sort of like community feel that's also doubles as a nice event space. And so that's the way we're going with it. So we're not losing space. In fact, what we're doing is making better use of the space we have. Councilmember Briggs. Do you see needing all until 2021 to the end of the city lease to take over that or is there You're asking me to be ambitious. Yes, well, I'm asking if you if you need all that time or if you see maybe earlier than not kind of working your way up to maybe not completely taking over but contributing a little more. Yeah, so you know, just broadly, what I'll say is that it is pretty ambitious to get to completely sustainable on this timeline, given, you know , where we are, but I'm I know we can pull it off. I do think there is a reality where it's possible that we have enough revenue to be able to take the lease off the city's hands early. And if that comes time I'm you know, I'm happy to explore that option. To be honest, the sooner the better for me as well. It's not just about about the city saving money. It's also for me, the principle of the matter that I really care about. And so, yeah, we want to get there is the is the short answer. I'm not sure if it's possible before that. I just want to commit to it because I think it's pretty aggressive as is. So just to follow up. Do you see yourself staying in that space once that lease ends? That is the current plan. Yes. And I mean, we're going to be making significant, you know, capital improvements with these two phases of that I just mentioned, you know, probably a few hundred thousand dollars is my guess. So I don't want that to go away. I appreciate that. And you're doing a really great job in those capital improvements. That's a lot of money. For me, I've heard quite a few concerns about the building itself and leaks and not keeping up with it. And it's not just you know, it's all over. And so I have concerns about trying to get people in with high tech equipment, running offices with that concern. And so I just kind of want to put that out there and making those investments. I would like to see the people who own the building make that investment in their structure as well. Well, you know, you guys can have leverage with me here. We can we can work work them together, I think, because I'm also I have two spaces in this building and I agree with exactly exactly everything you just said. And so the long I think the long, the long answer is that, yes, we need to make sure that they do that. And the short answer is that like they've been doing it for a while. I know they've been pretty responsive to any leaks, stuff that happens. In fact, they had people up there repairing the roof just less than a month ago. But it has been an ongoing concern. You're right. And yeah, at cubits, we have like satellite equipment. So trust me, I know really well that those risks and they 're getting there. Okay, so I think it'll be solved and we're going to make sure it is. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Thanks. Councilmember Amato. Would would you be open to or have you considered it kind of a weaning off approach instead of a cold turkey approach whereby so we've got the three categories. Yeah, expenses paid by the city, build the building rent, the utilities and then this other the other has remained 7000 constantly. Utilities has rained from 25,000 to 30,000. So what about kind of taking away first say in by the end of 2019, the utility, the utilities and the the other and in kind of and seeing how you do their obviously I'm not trying to make a deal with you there. I'm saying is something that you've considered and thought about by way of as a way of kind of prepping for eventually taking over. Yeah, being on your own. Well, I think two things I'll say is that yes, we have considered that in fact that's part of the plan right now is that we will be paying starting this year 1000 a month towards rent and then increases to 2000 the year after. So we are starting to pay in fact, as Caroline mentioned, there is no money changing hands from the city to us right now we're just taking on the management role. And in fact, the way this contract will move going forward is us giving you money, not the other way around. So we right now, we're the beneficiary of an investment that you guys made. I mean, that's really what it boils down to. And so just let me keep putting that investment in. And you know, my own money, honestly, a lot of it and let us let us figure it out. That's what we're asking for. So we are definitely open to that. And that's what that's the way we've designed it. And ultimately, I need those constraints to build a successful business. That's the way it has to be. Councilmember Malter. I've always liked the thematics associated with this. And I kind of get tripped up on the performance. Just to understand it better. So you're at 60 now. And it's something like 55% or tech or tech enabled. 57. And you know, and that and that's your kind of personal mission is to have it be predominantly that as close as we can get to 100. But you know, now you're going to get to 105. There's a couple pieces that I'm just trying to just juggle in my head. I presume that you want these kind of fledgling entrepreneurs to eventually graduate out of stone. Yes, that is part of the part of the proposition. So you got to like, I don't know, and kind of what timeline they tend to do that. But you got to refill and get more. So you know, or I'm kind of wondering about the market is, is there is there are there are a lot of these startups out there that have so far said no, or don't know about you or, or you envisioning that there's new startups, you know, being formed over the course of two years with where where are these people coming from? Are they coming from people said no, or people don't exist yet. So you know, the beautiful thing about co working space is that it really is just a huge disruption of commercial real estate. That's all it really is, at the at the heart of it. And so there is a market, there's no doubt there's a market for people to buy into the space, assuming you completely ignore the tech sort of angle to it. Now, specifically with regards to tech, and how do we re grow that cycle? This is about where our marketing and advertising kind of kick in. So in any renewing business like this, you've got typically some kind of fixed costs in marketing and sales that directly tie back to not just your renew renewed stability as a business, but also your growth one term. And so we are taking a really strong metrics based approach to make sure that we are always renewing membership in our space and targeting the entrepreneurs that can come into the space and and get here. You'd be surprised how easy it is like, you and T has so many amazing entrepreneurs and people just they just don't stay. And it's really easy to just plug yourself into one professor who has five students this semester who are all doing incredible things. And we've got relationships like that up and down the board at UNT right now. And so I think the question isn't is there a market? The question is, why hasn't anyone capitalized on it? And that's that's the thing I don't understand. So I think the short answer is yes, I can give you more numbers about what the commercial real estate market looks like and how the segmentation actually plays out for co working, something I've played with for quite some time. But ultimately, we're disrupting commercial real estate as a co working space to some degree. And I can't lie about that. It's a different way of doing things. It's member model instead of lease model. That's really what it boils down to. Your mic's off. Yeah, just to follow up a little bit. As far as capacity, so you're adding some capacity. How much? How much? It's roughly it's roughly eight to 10 offices total in the two phases. So do you have you got like, we've got drawings for one phase, but I mean, do you have vacancies that would accommodate so the 105 that you got to end up with in 2020 to be independent? You know, you're building, let's call it 10. So that's 95. So do you have like 35 vacancies right now? So we've had I would say month most months we've had a waiting list for offices. And I would say in any given month, we've had two or three people that are looking for the office that we can't give them. And we know they don't come back because we can't give it to them. So you're right. Okay. So we know there's demand. I mean, the market demand is literally just waiting for us to get it. So you're full. Yes. On offices we are. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And where do you put the new people? So right, right, right, right. So let me just go back to the space plane because it'll I think it'll make it a little easier. So the big group of three rows of desks here is also what we call dedicated office space or dedicated desk space. So this is like an individual private desk for a specific individual. We have a lot of room for growth here. We're about halfway full or so here. And that's a lot of revenue potential for us. But as I was just explaining earlier, we're really just eating into event space by changing the layout and restructuring it with more offices. So we're not we're not taking away from anything to add these offices. In fact, we're making the whole thing just better utilized. There's a lot of unutilized space right now. And that's what we're trying to fix. Okay. Yep. Councilmember Armator. So so just to clarify what I just heard. So the waiting list is for the larger the limited larger spaces that you have. Yeah, the private offices. Yeah, the ones you see around the site. And then the individual cubicles, there's actually a number of those free how many are being used right right now? And how many are free? Yeah, so we have 30 dedicated desks and I believe it's 12 are currently rented and maybe more than that. I'm sure one of them because okay, gotcha. And so we're we're about 10 maybe 15 inactive right now on the dedicated spaces. There was like two or three when we started. So yeah, yeah. Councilmember breaks. So just kind of going on this conversation with your large base and there's a waiting list on that and you're adding more. How do they compare to say the the market rate like per square foot on on the outside of Stoke in the city? Like is it is it pretty comparable or is it it's relatively comparable? I mean, there's definitely a slight premium to it just because of the nature of the community aspect you get out of a co working space and the shared amenities that everyone gets to enjoy. We have you know, free snacks and food for everyone. We do breakfast most week we do a lunch and learn once a month. There's lots of benefits to the members that go outside just the space that they end up paying for a little bit more for just so they can have access to it. Compared to compared to like what you might find like in a individual private office, but crucially the terms are much better. So like if I went if I'm a business that wants to go around 1000 square foot office on the square I'm going to pay what is it 18 $24 a square foot roughly right so but then I'd have to sign probably a three year commercial lease on top of that. But in a co working space is month to month if I want to go away I can and so there's extreme flexibility afforded that is really honestly focused on tech people entrepreneurs people that are maybe setting up a new office and trying to get situated those kind of situations. So monetarily it's similar but there's other aspects that that make it more attractable for those who are you know just getting started the entrepreneur. The extreme flexibility is what they like. Good. Okay. Thank you. And the community support. Okay. Thank you. Did I have anything else. Oops. I'm going backwards. Nope. That's it. So any other questions I'm happy to answer. Councilmember Romer. So the last time I was there which was also the first time I was there was for an event and I noticed just you were mentioned talking about the snacks there was it seemed like kind of a built in keg into the wall or I'm not sure if it was yet. So is that you know can you tell us a little bit about that you know what what's the monthly expense for that and you I remember I think you use local. Yeah I remember the last time it was if you could just say a little bit about the monthly or annual cost of that. Yeah I'm for you know supplies in general with wishing caps ulates like all food and drinks it's you know a relatively minor cost overall I want to say you know maybe maybe 10 on order of 10 percent I'd have to look at the exact percentage on the cap table or on the piano but it's around 10 percent of our overall expenses and then and that that adds up to maybe you know seven or eight hundred dollars a month total for all food and drinks that we do the specific thing that you asked about the keg we haven't had that in the space for a while in fact we just it was more of a rented thing than about things so we didn't pay a ton for that in fact we've been really there's been some great developments in our area of Denton since we moved in with Armadillo coming in and what both of the great coffee shop and a great beer place you know it's a there's a lot of people you'll see on the sidewalk where the train tracks are going back and forth between those two venues because it's like go get coffee here come back go get you know beer at night after you're done working it's a it's a common thing and I'm pretty sure that spirals main main customer bases tech people in that building so we have tech people like vegan food I don't know what that is but that's a thing. I'm just saying I don't know why tech people do. Thank you. So thank you for the presentation. Yeah. And I think it's a I agree with you it's aggressive I think that's all the reasons that I think you are the right person for the job as you've done all these phases right and so I think that's important one to me to challenge that at a high level okay but the other thing is you've actually done it and so there's a level of intimacy that you have that you're able to inject into the project inject into kind of the vision forward so I appreciate that and that that the angel group is outstanding. A couple of questions one thing how do you envision NCTC being downtown just across the rail how do you how you draw how do you draw them in what conversations have you had thus far with them and then I'll just get the second question out of the way I would love to see some sort of development or app that would allow the average person to try to simulate angel investment so if there's a way to do that so I mean because I think there is an app for that yeah I think it's fantastic I'd love to know what that is so that you know those that have not walked in those shoes can get a get a opportunity to kind of see their hits and misses and kind of what that world looks like yeah and and I'll end with this there's I did get a chance to get up on the treadmill with the yeah virtual reality yeah that's right you came to the yeah that's pretty pretty I think I got some exposing photos yeah I enjoyed that yeah how do you see that connection what conversations you had with NCTC yeah yeah so just the first question around NCTC so we are super excited about their new campus like just down the road from us we immediately actually thanks to Caroline got in touch with their provost and as soon as we heard about the plans and we have recently closed them as a new office member of St oke in fact they just did a 13 month they're funny because they they're used to commercial real estate they paid for 13 months of a membership in Stoke up front which is like thanks guys you didn't have to do that but we appreciate it you know it's it's a month- to-month membership but but they want to be a part of it they've already helped do a you know a event with us the big tech career fair that we had a few months ago and we see our partnership with NCTC, TWU and UNT on unequal footing with regards to the strategic vision and future of what we're building they all bring different strengths to the table and I mean I don't know what more to say about it than like we're doing everything we can with them and we're excited that they're there because it's a huge opportunity for us yeah was our second question in there I thought there was did I miss it no so you answered that you're gonna send me or let me know whether oh investment that that'll be there's a great there's a great app and pay web page called Angel list and if you want to see if you want to gamify angel investing that's a great place to go it's angel.co. Councilmember Arbator. Thanks for your patience with my many questions. So for me it's a look at this chart for me it's more useful to think in terms of net income so how would you and I take it you probably have in your mind you know if you were to convert these these projections to net income projections what what would they be yes sir by year yep so annual net revenue sorry I actually have this written down because I don't want to forget it so net revenue for the final year is we're trying to take over the lease is right at about a hundred and twenty K per year net revenue not not total revenue and so what we realized was that we are paying two K a month and two expenses on top of that and we will be able to take on probably a small loan to bridge some of the gap after we take on the lease to make sure that this thing can stay open we should have enough revenue to sustain based on profits that we build over the next few years to be able to continue forward after that that's the general goal . Okay so just to repeat to make sure I understood so by 2021 you're you're you're anticipating and your target is a hundred twenty K net revenue and the net net income and the it looks like here the the the projected total expenditures by the city as far as rent utilities and other exactly yeah about 200 yeah so you're looking at about and taking an 80 yeah 80 K loan to make up that that difference to be self-sust aining yes and no so you also have to think month because I'm an entrepreneur I think month over month more than I do year over year when I'm thinking about projections and so by the time we've made a hundred and twenty K net income in 20 by March 2021 the monthly net income will have increased significantly from the beginning of that year so if we project that out another 12 months we're much much closer to the number I don't have that number here but it's a roughly it's roughly 15 K per month net so we're getting much closer to 200 K number at that point once we play that out over the next year and then yes we'll probably will have to take some small kind of bridge loan to get there but you know I will be taking loans and putting my own money into this capital improvements as well I'm not afraid of putting investment into this business because I do believe it will be sustainable. Any other questions? Thank you. Okay thank you guys. Quickly wrap this up because Gary's clearly ready to get to his presentation. You can give the rest of mine. Okay so the the promised fiscal information on the city side as we go through the fiscal information on the city side as we discussed there is no money flowing from the city to Hickory and Rail Ventures under the management agreement. The rent utilities and other operational expenses that the city has for Stoke are part of the commercial lease agreement with Rail Yard Partners. At the time actually in November of 2017 the city projected the expenses that it would have for year one of the management contract with Hickory and Rail Ventures to be about $189,000. The actual expenses during fiscal year 17-18 were $198,000 approximately. Since we're not done with their contract yet we can't give you the exact fiscal information for the exact term of their contract but I did want to give you a rough estimate of what we were looking at for year one as the city's projected expenses where we were in fiscal year 17-18 just as an estimator and then we're going to follow up with all of you after November 30th which is the end of the Hickory and Rail Ventures contract term to tell you exactly what the city spent during the term of their contract just for reference purposes. Councilmember Briggs? Just in that presentation it will be what the difference was and what it was that cost more than we thought it was going to be. Right and we have some preliminary thoughts on that. Some non-routine maintenance that the city is responsible for under the contract in the space. I mean it wasn't anything out of the ordinary but that's where I'm looking at that increase right now. Maintenance for the building? Building maintenance? Yes. Okay thank you. Okay so as Marshall touched on earlier to offset the city's costs if the contract is renewed HRV will begin paying the city $1,000 a month for the next 12 months to offset rent and then should the contract be continued in months 13 through 26 HRV will pay the city $2,000 a month to offset rent and utilities and again as we mentioned before the city's zero forma from November of 2017 shows a total savings to the city under HRV's management of about $241,000 over three years. So we have some options for y'all to give direction on regarding this agreement. Option one is do not renew the management agreement. We can opt to renew it for 12 months or we can opt to renew it for 26 months which would take the management agreement through the end of the city's lease term for the space itself and then there are two different methods of renewal. We have the option because the existing agreement has a renewal clause in it that the renewal could be made via a letter of extension from purchasing and this is a routine way to extend agreements or the council could hold a vote on renewal. The staff recommendation is to renew the management agreement with Hickory and Real Ventures for 26 months to take us through the end of the lease term and do it via letter of extension and I will ask for your direction now on what your preference is on all of this. Councilmember Houspeth and then Councilmember Mouser. Again dynamic difference and I did not compliment Marshall 's team while he was up there but I do want to go back and echo what he said. I do believe in the team and the vision they're going and the direction they're going which is decidedly different than the last time we had this conversation and I do think it would be to not take staff's recommendation would be I'm going to recommend following staff's recommendation in that and kind of how it's laid out because they picked up a absolute mess and fixed it in a really short amount of time and that 's coming from someone that was ready to just buy out the lease and eat it. So I've come a long way individually but it's because I've gone to those events. I've read the post, I've held meetings there, I've attended meetings there as regularly as I could and talked to people, pulled them aside and just kind of got visited and I just really believe in where they're going and it's noteworthy to point out that the last group didn't have an exit strategy. There was no plan at the end of the day to ever get off where we're going and I think it's important to point out and echo Marshall's words. It's not because it's fiscally responsible for him to change that. It's a core value, it's a core belief he has and so in that I think is the difference. I mean someone holistically by default says this should not be in place so even if the projections get off or move or this that or the other that doesn't change those core values and so that's what I believe in and I think that should be rewarded and I think that that 26 months gives peace of mind that we can go on and kind of let them do their thing. They can market to people and have peace of mind that they 're not going to get call back here to have to rework things and there's always, correct me if I'm wrong Caroline, but there's always an opportunity to have a dialogue or have conversations along these 26 months. That doesn't say we can't talk to them that just says that contract's in place. No I would continue to talk to them. I would ask them to come talk to you all whenever you wanted to. We would continue to do reporting every six months like you all have received in the form of informal staff reports so yes the information would still flow to you. Right, yeah so I think in that again so I would want to do what staff outlined here because the alternative would be to communicate hey maybe we'll take this thing over in a year and that would be egregious. So you might as well send a clear message that hey it's your baby and we're going to help you where we can to get you where you want to go. I found those comments very helpful. Helps me get closer to there and Caroline maybe you can help me get the rest of the way there. Your expertise is at least in part in quantifying economic development projects that are kind of hard to quantify and can you help me understand in a quantitative way why this is a great investment for Denton? So I think are you talking about the contract with Hickory and Real Ventures why that's a great investment for Denton? We're spending $185,000 a year closer to $200,000 in reality. Why is that good? Two things I think the contract allows us to capture at least $241,000 worth of savings versus the prior management. I'll stipulate the previous deal is not good. Right okay so that's one thing that's good and beneficial quantitatively about this management contract. And I think the other thing that I really look at in terms of where I saw a gap in the resources available in this community to entrepreneurs is the angel investor group because they're committing to invest up to $250,000 at least at this point in time in our tech community and that would not have happened without Hickory and Real Ventures involvement in this project and their leadership on establishing that angel investor group. So if the city is spending you know $240,000 or $198,000 or you know some some range of money on this particular lease agreement we've brought an offsetting amount of money into the community and private investment through the efforts of this group. So those are the two main things that I look at when I quantitatively try to apply metrics to something that is frankly difficult to apply metrics to and we all realize that but those are the two things that I think are the most important to point out when I'm looking at is this successful is it helping us get to the goals that we had of supporting our local entrepreneurial community and creating opportunities for our students and young people to stay here and have opportunities. Councilmember Amato? So first I want to speak to the method which I think is really important. I prefer and want to provide direction on holding a vote on renewal. I think that's the most responsible thing to do as far as the public is concerned and that also means that and I understand that as you're saying that Hickory and Rael would have the opportunity to come before us whenever we want but this would guarantee them coming before us and having a conversation with the public. So I strongly prefer holding a vote. I think that'd be better for everybody. I agree that there have been just phenomenal improvements made under this new management and I applaud the new management of Stoke and you as well. I know that you played a part in your department so I think that's wonderful and I however, well not however, but because I see things headed in a positive direction I would feel most comfortable with the 12 months renewal. I don't think that that means a year from now you're out. I just see that as a guarantee that a year from now, if you combine that with the holding a vote on renewal, a year from now you're going to come back and we have a conversation and I wouldn't even, as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't even recommend holding specific terms to that renewal. In other words, saying if you don't meet that, so I'm not suggesting if they don't meet that projection by the end of the year then that's it. I wouldn't want to do something so cut and dry and then I applaud their desire to individuate and that I think is what our goal as well. So I think that it's most responsible for the taxpayers who are watching this and also to show the confidence that we have in the new management that we think they can do it to say look, you know, a year from now come back and we'll take a vote on the renewal and in the meantime, you know, keep up with the investors and building and growing. So again, I don't see this as a punishment but it's something that I feel more comfortable with and I think that our taxpayers would too. >> Councilmember Briggs. >> Part of the conversation that we've had through the years has been about the percentage of tech startups versus non in the rental space and we received a list of those renting and I was just wondering if you had a percentage of the tech startups on that list? >> Marshall, I'm going to look at you. It's around 60% now, correct? >> We've gone through this several different times and I can't remember if there was a specific goal that we had stated at one time or if that was still following through or -- >> There was not a specific direction from council related to a goal except to say that actually I was reading back through the ordinance and at the request of council we added language to say that not focusing solely on tech was a change in direction by the council at this time last year when we were talking about the contract. So that's an interesting thing to bring up and I appreciate you doing that because I think that we're still -- they're contractually required to report to me every month on what the percentage is of tech or tech enabled companies and they'll obviously continue to do that and that's their recruiting focus but the council changed its initial direction about what the expectation was and to be more inclusive of other types of entrepreneurs, I think that's what it came down to is that tech and tech focus is very important, however, we can offer support to other types of small businesses in our community and not be exclusionary just because they're not a quote unquote tech business. So we still get that report from them every month and they track it. >> Okay. Yeah. So I appreciate H&R Ventures. I think you guys have done a fabulous job and turned it around and I would personally like to see the 12 months. I agree with your recommendation and I would just be like, yes, let's do it, but I think for the sake of just the contract extension, the building, the structure itself, I would like to be able to come back in a year, see the growth and let them present that to the community because I think it's such a great job and I do think they're going to meet all their metrics and their goals and I want them to be able to share that with the council whomever may be here and I -- not so that it can be taken away because I don't think that would be an issue at all just because I think it's a great presentation to see how far that they've come. So that would be my recommendation just in 12 months and I -- a letter is fine for me. >> Councilmember Duff. >> Yeah, I look back at where we were a year ago and, you know, and I look at this presentation of where we are now and I'm absolutely amazed that we've -- that these people have been able to take this thing over and turn an absolute disaster into something that's not quite as disastrous, okay? Because you know, I agree that, you know, a year ago I was like, let's just shut this thing down and forget it and get out of it as soon as we can. So I'm totally on board with giving them 26 months. I think we need to give them a vote of confidence for what they have done and, you know, hopefully they'll carry this thing on and it will be very viable when the city is not involved in it. >> And at least financially. And I share those sentiments to go with staff recommendation as well. We're under lease for 26 months so we might as well -- I mean, we're not going to try and shift it and take it back ourselves after 12 months or 24. We're just -- it's trying to get this out from underneath the city's budget and, you know, we're locked in for 26 months. There's always the possibility to renegotiate that he may wish to take it over early if things are going very well. But I think the one we did not hear from is Councilmember Meltzer as to which -- >> Yeah, I don't know if this is going to be helpful or not , but, you know, I agree with the sentiments generally expressed. My inclination is more toward the 12 months just to keep them focused and I want to -- I look forward to that conversation in 12 months to see the membership numbers achieved, to see the capital formation, to see the jobs. You know, I think that's just sort of -- I think it concent rates the mind to have a 12 month goal. So now you're half and half. Maybe you can find a way to -- >> If we -- I'm sorry. >> Councilmember Brooks. >> I have a question, I know sometimes you do a one year contract with a possible extension for two. I mean, I just really enjoyed this presentation. I thought the goals and metrics, the data, you know, coming up here and presenting was very helpful for me and I know that was probably was for the community as well. And so just -- >> If we promised to come back in 12 months and do the exact same thing with updated information, would we just go ahead with the 26 month extension? If we promise, we'll come back. >> If I could weigh in. We're happy to bring them back every six months if you like . I think that if we go back a year ago kind of echoing Councilmember Duff's comments, staff just simply -- our staff, you know, we were locked into a half a million dollar lease contract. So the question at that point is do you just eat it and, you know, essentially evict everyone out of the working spaces or you try to make it work? I think Marshall's done exactly what he said he would do. He's come in, he's brought expertise we didn't have, energy that was missing and we can certainly do a 12 month deal. Then you're going to have 14 months left in the conversation next year. Should we have a similar conversation? It's going to be -- are we willing to take it over 14 months if there's still on this path? So we can go in either direction you want. We can bring back a couple of different choices for you. But right now you've got two years and two months left on this lease. And if this continues to be viable in a year, I mean, I can 't envision a scenario where, you know, the city's staff would step in for 14 months. So we can certainly, you know, ask that we require some kind of reporting mechanism as a part of an extension and we're happy to do that. But I really just don't think anything's going to change given what we're seeing and the energy that Marshall's put into this with 14 months left on our deal next year. >> Councilmember Deff, and then we'll go Briggs and then Armidale. >> Yeah. I think whether we go, you know, 12 months or 26, it's not going to change their focus. >> Councilmember Briggs? >> And again, I want to say that -- state that my concern is the structure itself in the building. I have really major concerns with that and updating in a year to make sure it's just important. I mean, so it's not just about the contract itself. It's about, you know, our lease as well and the responsibilities that come with that. So that's just kind of where I am on that. And my suggestion would be go ahead and put 26 months as a vote and bring it to council and see what goes there. I mean -- >> We can do that and we'll also include an update on the building at that time as well. So we've always got the ability to change it to 12 at the D ias if that's what the council majority is. >> Councilmember Armidale? >> Yeah. I just want to add. So I -- in recommending 12 months, you know, I do understand that there's this additional 14 months that we're committed on the lease. So by no means am I envisioning evicting anybody. But that's not -- you know, but the city's paying the lease is just a part of the contract. You know, I'm interested in looking at, you know, as I mentioned before, we've got this $25,000 in utilities, roughly 25 to 30,000, plus this 7,000 , you know, other category that the city contributes. That's the kind of thing that I would be interested in coming back after a year. And again, I wouldn't want to set any terms in writing because I want to be flexible to whatever happens, not to lock them in or to lock us in, but just to be able to have a chance to come back and say, okay, look, you know, you did very well. And so we're going to wean you off the utilities or you'll pay half the utilities. We got -- you know, and we do have obviously, you know, a lot of small businesses that are struggling to pay their utilities. And I know that this business can relate to that. So I would like to keep that as an option, which is why I prefer the 12 months. I don't think it's a horrible thing. My husband's job, he renews his job every -- his job gets renewed every 12 months. And that's not -- you know, it almost feels routine. So I still prefer the 12 months. But if we've got people's directions that have changed, I guess, then we're kind of off the balance. But I would at least -- I mean, off of that tie, at the very least, I hope when that comes back to us, can we tweak that? I'm not sure legally how that would work. We could add in those kind of terms a year from now. I'm not even saying I plan on doing that, but that would be a possibility, or is that contract pretty much set in stone until the 26 months period is up? Well, I think it takes two to change that provision. And if -- we can certainly have a conversation with him in a year, but ultimately, he told us last year after we went through the RFP process what his approach was going to be. If he wants to change that and not go through this process again, that's totally up to him. But nothing is off the table, I guess is what I'm saying to you. So we can certainly have a conversation about anything. And if he wants to -- if that's something that you want to hear about, hear from him, we can ask him to provide that information. So we can certainly talk to him about that. We can certainly ask him to come back on an annual basis. We'll get an update for you on the building. And whatever information you want. I'm just happy that this conversation is focused on deal points and not whether the city staff is taking this over. So I think -- so we're in a much better place today. So -- Councilmember Meltzer. I can certainly live with the idea of, you know, going to a vote, but if it sort of presents -- just to make the 12 months mean something, yeah, that we 'll have this report out and that that's potentially an opportunity to renegotiate. Like I doubt we actually would, but something like that. And then last point I want to make is I just don't want us to miss the opportunity to sing the praises of the unsung hero of the last transition, which is Caroline. As I recall watching from those seats, it was just dropped in your lap. And, you know, you're here. You really came through shining. Councilmember Hussbett. Briefly. So yes, I like the idea of it coming back and full council voting on 26 or 12. And I'll just say, again, I think to the senior manager's point, the 12 year -- the 12 months is -- it's a great presentation for next year to see, you know, make sure we're on pace. But I don't -- to have -- I don't know what else comes out of that meeting. So I look forward to the vote. And hopefully we can agree or the consensus will be 26 months. And then, again, I'll just say whenever we get to that conversation, I'm absolutely not for changing any of the terms because I think that's short- sighted, right? I think that's a short fix to a long problem. So three years ago we had no plans from getting underneath this contract and no exit strategy. So even if we take it over for the next three years, we had no plan thereafter in renewing contracts, et cetera, et cetera. And so to have a plan to exit, to turn that over at the end of the contract is, for me, the long-term goal, short-term goal of recapturing a few thousand dollars for utilities is not the goal. The goal is to have a target, be consistent, and be done with it. And I'll say I think as a city as far as leverage, there is some. But to have three or four tenants in your building to put pressure on you to enhance your building is significant versus a city that has one tenant in there that they know we're not renewing. There's just no way we get there, right? So what leverage do we have knowing we're leaving no matter what? You know, hey, this story ends. And so I think there are current tenants in the relationships they've built. I mean, think about that. I mean, I think that that gets missed. NCTC is investing in a building downtown, one. And then they're investing in Stoke for 13 months in advance. I mean, that, to me, is pretty dynamic. And you look at TW and UNT, those relationships as well. So I think that they have a community buy-in. The owners of the building understand that those relationships that have been developed and they're going to do -- and again, the person that's in the building is saying, hey, they've taken strides to do that. And that person in the building says, I'm comfortable with their ability to meet their obligations as far as a building. So with that, and not to mention Spiral Bakery and the success they've had, I mean, I just think they have all the motivation they need to do the right thing, and I trust they will. So with that, I look forward to the vote and some sort of structure of a revisit at 12 months to make sure we're on pace to exit. But I would not support reworking the contract in any way, just because I think that's short-sighted. >> Okay. Councilmember Briggs. >> I'm not going to comment now. >> Okay. All right. So I think we have direction to bring it back for a vote with 26 option to possibly go to 12. Is that what's needed? >> Yes. Thank you. >> Okay. Let's see. We've been going at it almost an hour and a half, and I have a feeling the next presentation is going to take a little bit of time. So we'll go ahead and take about a five-minute break before we get started on it. >> October 16th work session. It is 3/27. We're moving along to item B on the work session reports, receive a report from staff, hold a discussion, give staff direction regarding design and construction of median beautification projects at several intersections. Gary? >> City Council Gary Pack and Director Parks and Recreation . Today Drew is actually going to do some presentending today for our projects as presented in your packet. If you remember back during the budget process for '18-'19, one of our supplementals was to conduct these three projects, two beautification projects and then one park improvement project. And at that time during the budget process, council decided to allocate money from the '17-'18 budget. So this money was allocated, and so we were working to expedite these to get them on the street. So we wanted to run some concepts by you for consideration. >> Councilmember Briggs. >> Can you remind us of that total allocation? Because I remember it was in the supplemental and the mayor said -- okay. >> Right. Slide two, funding appropriated from '17-'18 is totaling $ 285,000. And then we have additional funding specifically for South Lakes Park from the '19-'16 fund for the parking lot of $167,000. So the total project amount is $452,000. >> Good afternoon. Like Gary said, my name is Drew Huppen. I'm the superintendent of parks. And we're going to bring to you some of our ideas and what we're going to do to beautify some areas around Denton and add the parking lot, like you said, to South Lakes. So he told you about the background and the funding, and this is the total balance that we have at the moment. We don't look at spending all those dollars, especially at Southwest Park, and due to some things I'm going to show you in just a minute. So the first one we're going to talk about is Dallas and Te asley. This will be the first project to get started. We're working with the street department right now. If you remember, there used to be a recycle center there at Dallas and Teasley. That recycle center was taken away years ago, and right now there's some concrete blocks and just old asphalt there. So the street department has a project I'm sure you're well aware of for their capital improvements for some base failures on Shady Oaks where Te asley changes names. And while they're there, they're going to utilize their equipment and take the asphalt out to save its cost also. So. Councilmember Briggs. I'm sorry. City manager, isn't there another quick update there at Dallas Drive in Teasley for one of the small transportation projects that we were going to do? Yes, there is. And I'll ask Pre-Tam to brief us on that real quickly. I'm just wondering how that correlates and if that eats into any of this. No, ma'am. We pretty much work together pretty well. I service out of the, my office is out of the service center. So I'm over with engineering, with streets, with utilities. And so I bounce back and forth, especially through all these projects that we've started. This is what our ideas are. We have the meetings and I'm sure you're well aware of for the utility meetings. And so I go to the, you know, I go to those and also go to each one of them, each one of their offices to show them what we have. And we took the plans for Dallas and Teasley for that transportation project you're talking about. And we made sure that this would not, we would not affect each other in this program. And that's why we also went to the street department and I found out that they would be close and that way we could utilize their equipment there to be able to mill out the asphalt in the area of the old recycle center. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. So this is the first rendering that I'll, or this is the rendering I'll show you. If you remember here, here's Dallas and Teasley. Teasley kind of changes names right there, but this walkway is here and it'll be reconstructed. And then these sidewalks are present and will be reconstructed. Also these trees are currently there. They're nice oaks. And so we're not doing anything with those. We may, we may trim those up a little bit and beautify those, but we beautify the space underneath. This area right here, as you can tell, there's a drainage inlet right here where the mouse is now. And this is where the asphalt will stop. We'll take the asphalt there. Current right now there's the part, big concrete blocks there and they're also up here. That way no one pulls into that section. All this would be planted in wildflowers and go ahead. I'm sorry. Other trees and then in this area right here where we have the river rock, not only is there river rock there, but they're also plantings, which will help clean the water instead of using what we, what we have around town as far as the catt ails and stuff like that, that we have to, to clean the water that we have these rocks. And then right here in this section, we'll dig that deeper and add more rock there and it'll hold water to help irrigate those trees. Council Member Briggs. Just to help, cause there's not, I don't think there's a map or any pictures of this current location in this one. So just to, for my frame of reference, the workforce, the Texas Workforce Commission is back behind. Yes ma'am. And onto the side here where that buffer is going to be, there's a, like a fence, right? Yes ma'am. So I'll work with the property owner. So if you look, you can kind of see through the white part of this presentation right here. There's a trailer right here where they sell food out of. The gas station is right in here and there's a chain link fence there. So what we'll do is we'll remove that chain link fence because it separates our two properties and it doesn't really look good. So we're going to plant these trees here to give that buffer between the back of the gas station that's there and then grade all that over to where this drains to our nice river bed that we have. Okay, so the fence will be removed and not one added back and just be open? No ma'am, it will not be added back. For walkability? Yes ma'am. Okay. Thank you. Councilmember Maltzer? I would find it helpful if we could go to Google Maps or something and just see what that area looks like. Okay. You have it. Oh, excuse me. I just want to say to council, this is the one area that Mr . Hutzbeth came and talked about for a really long time when there were trash bins there. Not the one currently here, but the other one. And there was a legal dumping and it was just a mess. And so those were removed and this was something that was promised many years ago that it would happen. So I'm going to go over some background. Does this help sir? So yep. Okay, I can do that. So with this here, you can see that the parking blocks are behind this pole here. And then here's the trees that are currently here that we won't remove at all. We won't touch. We'll just trim. And then this is the building that you're talking about now . And then all this asphalt here will be removed. This tree, this six-foot fence right here that I'm assuming was put up whenever we had the recycle center there to keep trash out of the business. Yes, sir. This is a triangle. Yes, sir. What about where their dumpsters currently are? Will there be any screening added? Let me go back here to the presentation. The business. So here along where we're going to plant the wildflower mix , the muffle grass, these trees will be in that area to help screen that business and that way you'll keep that beatified space. So we're going to trade the fence for the trees. Okay. Yes, sir. Council Member Armitage. And who is the property owner? I have his card on my desk. I can't really pronounce it. He owns that property and the car lot behind it and I believe both businesses. One is a mechanic shop and one is like a rent-based shop for you to do your own mechanic service. Council Member Briggs. So I will just add that this street, this is great. It's going to be really nice there in what is an unsightly area. But I will just say that if we don't do anything on Dallas Drive with all the poles, there's like a gazillion poles with just one thing attached all the way down. It doesn't matter how many trees you plant or how much beautifying you do. It's not going to look great coming into our city. And so I know that we had a staff report on that one time about how much that would be. And I mean, I still think that that should be a possibility if our goal is to make it beautiful. We have to do something about all the poles down Dallas Drive. We'll get that staff report brushed off and also I'll ask Assistant Manager Kanazaro to coordinate with DME on that. I know that some of the issue was dealing with the cable and phone companies and there may have to be a deal made to consolidate everything, but we'll look into that and put a budget together. So with that, this just shows a more up close and personal view of what's going to go there by the walkway and also we're going to add areas for a sculpture pad. So we're working with our committee to, we haven't really shown them anything there yet or got direction on what they'd like to put there, but we want to give that opportunity. So this is another look. And this is our estimated cost. Do we have any questions on Dallas and Teasley? Councilmember Briggs? Just a reminder that we are a monarch city now. Yes ma'am. And so with the wildflowers we plant just that we're considerate of the types of flowers that... Yes ma'am, we are. Okay, thank you. Councilmember Raubatel. So a couple of things. So the turf, this is not going to be artificial turf, is it ? No ma'am. Okay, that's what I thought. So if you go back here, the grass is already there that's around the trees, you saw that in the Google Earth picture. And then the turf here that we're planting as far as right here will be buffalo grass, which is native to Texas and also the native wildflowers that are native to Texas also. Okay. Just wanted to clear that up for the public because I know people have seen the drawings of the artificial turf that looks like that. Yes ma'am, it won't be. It looks the same, thank you. So the sculpture, and I'm a huge fan of public art, but I wonder at this intersection and I drive this a lot, I mean it's a very, I think many of us do, I like the idea of making it prettier. I don't know if sculpture, it would be the best place there , considering that you're looking out for cars at the intersection or you're watching the light change. I don't know if it would be the best location for that. Just throwing that out there, maybe someone can prove me wrong. Well, and I will tell you there's a little bit of psychological aspect of this area also, as you well know that most of us that have young children and even those of us that have pets take our loved ones to flower pastures, especially in the March, April timeframe to take pictures. And with even a small sculpture in that area, it gives that opportunity for people to actually visit this area and not just look at it and drive past it. That was kind of the thought process behind that, I believe . So it may not be a huge piece of art there, it may be more of a memorial or just a small sculpture. I'm actually, where we are, we're working with Denton ISD and they have their, of course their welding program and their other programs they have at their high schools and we're working with them on what we can do to partner together to create art around the city so that our actual high school students will be making. And where would they park? Where would people park? There's parking along Duncan, so on the backside. Thanks. Let me just ask for clarification on this Council Member Armator. Are you saying at that location you're not looking at it, you don't think a sculpture is good or on the Teasley side, because I would think it might be better on the Dallas side because that's the entrance into the city, depending on the size of the sculpture. That's a good point. It's funny, I was actually unconsciously imagining on the Teasley side because that's the way I usually go. Let me go back. But that's a good point. One aspect of that, if we did put that, it would need to go in this area due to the traffic regulations and the visibility aspects. We can't plant anything in this area here over two feet tall or place anything. That makes sense. Council Member Meltzer. Big improvement. We'll see it every day. And I'm happy to hear the advice from Public Art on what they think about that. My clutch idea would be a rendering of a monarch butterfly in some artistic form. So moving on, Eagle and Elm through these three today, this will be the last one that we do due to the construction, as you can see, that's taking place on Eagle and Elm right now with drainage. But we are working with them for this construction. This is what it looks like right now. Most of those vehicles parked in this space right here that will be beautifying are from the across the street business that moved October 1st. They were the powder coating company. So as you can tell, their pickup was right here. Yes, ma'am. Council Member Briggs. I assume that there would be another business moving into that location. So is that parking part of that or is it just something that they can... No, ma'am. That's actually TextDOT right away. So the road, I assume, used to go here years ago. And they moved Elm over and this was left. And this is all from this corner over to this corner and here is all TextDOT right away. And so are we buying it back from them or we have some sort of agreement? No, ma'am. We're working on it. We have an email agreement with them saying that, yes, we can beautify this area and take out all the asphalt if that's what we desire. And we will work with a full permitting agreement with them before this for construction begins. Thank you. So with Eagle and Elm, we have two options here. We took this to Park Board and they actually liked the second option, but we wanted to show both here since we already had this presentation. And so this is Eagle and Elm. I know most of us drive by this periodically throughout our week. These are the plantings here. We will add these sidewalks and then, of course, with this option, we'll give us an option to put a sculpture base here also to add the little D. So we'll actually turn that. The idea was to turn the little D bike racks that we have downtown into a 10-foot tall little D and for that to be the sculpture piece there. So that was the main-- that was what started our conversation with Denton ISD. So with this option, we will take out the drainage-- or excuse me, take out the asphalt in that area and encompass all of the text lot right away that's there and take the parking out. So also we will be working with engineering and the drainage department. The water actually, if we go back here, the water from the street actually comes in and comes through this area here and this area here and goes back to this drainage box. We have a large drainage system that runs underneath this island that's designed for 100-year storm. And if we were to encompass all of this with option one, we would work with them in installing an inlet here and connecting to the blocks underneath the island. Councilmember Briggs. And are those crepe myrtles? Yes ma'am, they're crepe myrtles. That's what they are. So this is option one and the cost associated with it. And then this is option two. So I'll move on. And this is what option two, this is the rendering of option two, what it will look like when it's fully complete. Yes ma'am. Councilmember Briggs. And how large are those letters? Because I would think they would need to be pretty large so that they can actually be seen and they don't kind of disappear into the background. Yes ma'am, they're going to be two feet, two feet tall, two by two. Okay, and is this also something that the DISD students would? Possibly. We're working those in and from the conversation that I had with them that their welding teacher moved a piece of equipment and it's in the wrong room so they have to move that equipment to the proper ventilation room. And once that's done, then they can look at their options. And in fact, I got an email a minute ago about getting different AutoCAD drawings so they could plug that into their computer for their plasma cutter . So this would be an option for them to work on this. I just want to add that I think that's a great idea that you're using as students so that they can actually drive around and see their art, their work in the city. I think that's a fantastic idea. Thank you. Councilmember Arvind. So just to confirm, so these are, so no trees will be taken , will be removed for this? The crepe myrtles will actually be removed and other trees will be planted in their place. Okay, so and how many crepe myrtles will go down? I believe there's five. Five crepe myrtles. And why are the crepe myrtles going down? To replant for this area here. But I mean, are they, is it a visibility issue or? No ma'am, they're not a visibility, it would just be to replace them with these items here. Okay. And on that, is that, we're on this map is that Denton. So here's Elm and here's Eagle, Briscoe Tire is here. Yeah, I'm just talking about on the drawing, you had the word Denton listed that's showing there? Yes sir. So, let me, sorry I went the wrong way. So Elm is here and Eagle is here. Okay. Again, it might just be me but it seems strange to have it on the Elm side when you're leaving downtown as opposed to. Am I wrong? It's on both sides. So if you look, the Denton is here and Denton is here. So you'll be seeing it as you come down the hill or as if you're coming down the hill on Elm Forward Drive, you can see the letters and then if you're driving down Eagle east or west, you can see the letters and when you're coming from the downtown area, you can see the letters. So you'll be able to see them in all directions. Okay, so is the orientation turned so you can see it as you 're driving down the road? Let me go back. So the orientation will actually, the way it's designed is turned at an angle. So it's not straight like it is here. It'll be turned slightly at an angle here this way so you can see it. Councilmember Bruegge. So looking at this, there's a little section that says phase two and that's the text dot section so we're not building out all the way as we are in option one? No ma'am. Is there a reason why? This was our initial design and we kept this. We can, we would actually like to move this more and possibly put this one sided. That would be an option also and that way you would be able to see it from all angles as well and it would work this way. We would still need to modify the curb inlet in here to move the water around but that is an option that we can do. Well I personally think if we're going to be doing it we should go ahead and encompass that whole area and make it like what it needs to be rather than having a phase two because when that comes around you may have to like re-completely do phase one to enter whatever it may be. I mean I just, and then have the wording large enough and visible like you said from all sides. That's my preference. Any questions? Yeah I think I'm probably would like option one a little better on this one. I'll get some additional comment on it but my one question on option one is where you've got that sculpture base if you're coming down Elm which is a one way all those trees are going to block it out so it's not going to do any good to have it. Yes sir the idea there would be for you to see it either on Elm or headed north into the square off of or either on Igor headed north coming off of Fort Worth Drive. So okay from the area is there. Other comments on options one or two? Councilmember Hasbeth. Thank you. What did you say parks park board recommendation is? Option two. Parks board recommended option two. Yeah and I would go with that I mean at a respect for their due diligence. Then we can modify it like you were saying we could turn it and make it encompass the whole area. Councilmember Romer. Yeah so I'm not I'm not convinced that the crepe myrtles need to go so maybe there's something I'm you know that I'm missing about them but that seems it would you know keep those trees I realize they're not you know great great big trees in terms of you know thickness but they're they they bloom you know real prett ily and they they do pretty well they're hardy so I don't I don't know I don't know if you want to kind of try to make that case again but I don't I don't see why those need to go in if we did keep those what would the we would have to change the savings be well if we did keep those we'd have to come back with a total different a total different plan on that really because it was planned around removing the crepe myrtles and adding in other vegetation there. So we could we could look at modifying the design a little bit especially if we if we encompass this area out here and use the Denton landscape we'd have to figure out how to incorporate that so the trees didn't obscure the letters to try to kind of live in both both worlds in both spaces if we if we put it at an angle kind of in this direction portion of that's going to be obstructed from those trees but we can we can try to play with it the best we can to see if we can't salvage the trees or at least some of them it's just ultimately how it how it fits in there from a visit of visibility standpoint. Councilmember Haslund. Yeah my understanding and this is where Hayward's insight would be great but my understanding is crepe rolls aren't great that and they drop and it's a mess. Yes sir. And so I don't I would like to see if there's a consensus before we work rework anything I don't know that there'll be traction for that. And to me a crepe myrtle is not a tree it's a bush a shrub. Councilmember Briggs. Right yeah so I feel the same way but anyone that knows a crepe myrtle knows that they never ever truly go away. Ever. I've got them. Yeah so yeah I just want to make sure that whatever we do like the reason I like option one is that it encompasses the whole thing which makes it more complete. And we can do that option too. Glenn McLean our landscape architect actually made this a while back and you see this dotted line here we had the option that we can we can turn that and then encompass this area and we can make it all a green space so it doesn't have to be all landscape area we'd actually you know we can plant turf there also. And I would just say I'm sorry if we are planning our residents to use these and to walk them that they be that we make sure the appropriate lighting is there and that there is that it's safe for them that there's enough space there for walk ability or you know or anything I mean we're expecting families to show up to take photos by the wildflowers that there's appropriate you know space between cars and there's appropriate lighting. What doesn't show on here there will be there will be lighting for the letters so it won't be that you can just see them during the day there'll be lighting there for you to be able to see them at night also. On the pictures there is a picture of several electric boxes what is the plan for those because again that's unsightly and I mean you can make it as pretty as you want but if you don't have a goal for those to go away or to be covered or wrapped with some sort of art then it's going to distract. We have talked to DME in the past and with traffic about wrapping those with with different wraps than actually moving them it's very costly to move those and those would be at our expense because we would want those moved so we are in discussions with them about wraps so we have these all over town as you know you will know that all our ball fields have big electrical boxes there's one right outside this building that's not really nice to look at so we're looking at options of wrapping. There are several towns in Colorado that do that and they had art contest and if you're looking to involving students as well or just any artists that might be a good way to incorporate that as well I think they just they're magnetic. Yes ma'am. And they just kind of put on there. Okay. Councilmember Meltzer. I just want to make sure I'm understanding this right on concept one with the dentin can you help me understand which way that's facing how is that oriented? Number one or number two? Well the one that's here now. I'm looking at concept two but I don't see the letters. So right now. Where do the letters face? So the letters are against here and against here. Because you're okay so it would be facing. Yes sir it's on this wall right here. Because when you're coming south on Elm you're leaving generally. Yes sir. So I guess the thought is when you're coming in on Eagle that's where it's more function like a gateway. Right so that way when you're coming in. Let me find my mouse. When you're coming when you're driving down Eagle this way you'll be able to see the sign here when you're headed east and also when you're headed west you'll be able to see the sign here. All right I get that. It's not as important when you're leaving dentin. Usually you know where you went and where you come from. Well yeah exactly that's my point. But that way and you can also remind them of where you were that way when they're leaving. Or y'all come back now maybe I should say. All right that's helpful thank you. Councilmember Romer. So I had a question about the irrigation costs. It doesn't matter for either option one or option two. They're roughly the same. Actually they are the same. If you could just say something about what the current you know what watering of that area is and the irrigation. Neither one of the areas that I just showed you have any irrigation at all. Okay so there's no irrigation so this would be putting in an irrigation system. So it's a brand new system with all new pipe all new controllers everything. So this area here that I'm showing you here at Ammon Eagle would be bubblers. We wouldn't actually put sprinkler heads up because hopefully the area you know it's it's has a lot of walkability at night or there's a lot of people down there in the in the downtown area at night so we'd hate turn on sprinklers while they're walking around. So there's special bubblers for turf and grass that are underground and still waters all the roots. So it's different than actually having a pop-up head come up and water the grass. And so so right now no irrigation is needed because it's what is what's right there is just pretty jacks and tolerant just weeds and the great my rtles and that's that. What was was any kind of thought put into more drought tolerant. We could change the turf to more of like a buffalo grass than a Bermuda and that would work on drought tolerance. And with the irrigation with some form of irrigation it would still some form of irrigation would still need to be there just due to the trees and landscape that were there. So really your costs aren't changing very much maybe two or three thousand to take out the pipe there for the turf but you still need your controllers. So it would only shave up just a couple thousand dollars but save some water save some water you would need to use it as much. And then the and I understand there's probably not consensus on the on the the crepe crepe myrtles but but just out of curiosity what would be the difference in cost if they were to be if they were to remain. I couldn't tell you that right now because of the subsequent changes and okay. Got it. Councilmember Briggs. So direction my direction would be to go option two with the span of option one. And to use drought tolerant plants. All these plants that were in there all the landscape plants are drought tolerant and then we could change the turf to more of a drought tolerant turf. Yeah and more native plantings for the trees that we that we use. Yeah and just lands irrigation is crazy cost. That's something I learned just recently. I mean yeah so as long as we're not using the tree fund for it I'm okay. Other comments. If you expand option two to this to the full scope bringing phase two I'm good with that I would like to see a park bench possibly in that area as well. Part of that is it's about halfway between downtown and one of the towing lots so for anyone who's ever had a car towed in downtown and had to walk that would be nice to have that. Yes sir. Breaking spot personal experience. City manager question as far as the wraps go for the utility boxes is that something that council needs to recommend for public art to take up or is that something that parks department can do on their own just for process sake. If the council would like us to look into it would do it I would still write by the park board just to get their input on it since it's a new type program. I don't think we've done that before so we're happy to look into it. We've explored some of those concepts with the public art committee and they're open to those concepts. I think we just need to bring some locations forward and some options of what we'd like to do and then present some designs. So I think they certainly are open to that and possibly could use some of the funds that we have available for public art for this project so it could be something that could be really in certain parts of the area at certain parts of downtown it could be really impactful and we've seen some examples of that in other metroplex cities. So if we could. Other comments. Councilmember Ronald. So I'll just say I mean I love the idea of beautifying these spaces. I think that does matter and I like the look of these designs. And I can tell that I'm in the minority here but I just I don't like the idea of putting in a irrigation system for this small plot and having so much concrete. So but because I'm in the minority I won't go on and on about but all that is to say you know applause for this plan to beautify the space. I do think that's extremely important. All right thank you. Councilmember Briggs. For clarification aren't we removing a ton of concrete? Yes ma'am we'll be removing all that asphalt now. Yes ma'am. And adding green. Yes. Okay thank you. And before I move on to the parking lot I will let you know in the future hopefully pretty soon we'll be bringing other gateway sign ideas for consideration and we're starting to pick out those different areas and what what kind of signs and beautification ideas we have for the city. Councilmember Amato. So sorry just on to what Councilmember Briggs just said so the cost for the concrete then that's for. That's just for this concrete wall that you see here. Okay. Where the so we're not adding anything. We will add we will add some sidewalk there. Yeah. Due to what you said in the concrete in the bench. So that's for the wall the wall and the sidewalk. Yes ma'am. Yeah. The wall and the sidewalk and then these these stones here. And that's what I meant I mean I do like I like that there 's more going to be more green space there. So thanks for clarifying. Councilmember Meltzer. I think especially once we have a re-envisioned greater downtown that area becomes part of downtown. I have to take it out of the floodplain. We're going to be very happy that we have a much more attractive entryway to that area. Sorry. Go ahead. Sorry. So I will move on to the proposed South Lakes parking lot. This area is for the playground. Just directly behind Metslers and the doctor's office right here. It does not have a place. It does not have a parking lot. It was originally intended for users of this playground and pavilion to use the school's parking lot. That's not what's taking place. They're actually parking in these business owners parking and taking up their potential clients. So this is the idea of the parking lot. And here's where my show and tell comes in. So we're proposing to add pervious pavement parking lot. So what this will be is you'll actually park on top of this plastic. It's rated to the highest ASME standard. So as you can tell, it has your red dots here to signal that you can have fire lanes on it. So it's rated to tractor trailers. So with this, you'll excavate eight inches below the top of the or the bottom of your pervious pavement here. So your plastic and then add in crushed limestone for all your water to go. And then inside of here, you'll add you add stone inside of this about a quarter to 16th below the top. And this will be your parking. So we won't be adding concrete or asphalt there actually cuts down our heat island effect. And it does away with lots of different drainage aspects that we'd have to add to the parking lot. Yes, sir. I'm gonna pass this around. So as you can tell in there, you had different dots where you can have either more parking spaces or your fire lanes or your handicap parking. So I'll move on while we're passing that around to where the parking lot is where to show you there's an entrance and exit to the apartment complex. And the parking lot entrance will be right in this area right here. And the parking lot will be right here. So I'll move it so we don't have to turn our head. So with this here, we'll signal this as a walk space there with a sidewalk is will come in and this will be the design of the parking lot. And then with this will add our areas for our benches. This is what the parking actually looks like we have this it's in several different areas here in Derek DFW. We don't have any indent and yet. But hopefully, we can kick this off and get more parking like this and for other businesses. So with this parking lot here, as you all know that, you know, most of us that have kids, you know, we take our kids to the playground to have their release and their playtime. And then we have we already had the pavilion there and some picnic tables there for us as adults to sit and relax and watch our kids play on the playground. But as you pull in, that's it's that's the time. That's the time for the kids to be kids, right? So they get excited when you pull in the parking lot, especially, you know, you take them to Eureka, take them to the playground at North Lakes. You know, they get excited as soon as they soon as you pull in the parking lot because they know that that that's their time. So as a signification of that's their time, you have all these different colors and all of our landscape beds in the middle of the circle and right here at the beginning and the entrance to the playground sidewalk for the kids. Just its nature. It's their time. It's their time to play. We're also we're also going to add a hopscotch and permanent hopscotch into the sidewalk here that way you can do a little hopscotch in a little hopscotch out to you know, that's that's just their time or, you know, our time to play. Yes, ma'am. Council member Bruce and Council member Meltzer. So I always thought this playground belonged to the school. No, ma'am, it belongs to us. I'm just going to say and the times that I had used it, it was because I was at the school parked at the school and there was some sort of event going on and we had a break and so we walked around in the back or there was soccer practice or something going on out in that field. Yes, ma'am. And then that's when you played on it. So my question is, has there have there been complaints about. Yes, ma'am. There's been several complaints and we Gary, Gary and I and Glenn actually met with both the business owners of that area and what's happened and that they've either asked them to move or just now totally ignored the situation and just dealt with that the people that want to either shop there or need to go there for a doctor's visit have to find other parking. And would it be cheaper for us to put up a sign? There are signs ma'am and they don't they still park. Yes, ma'am. We've had signs there for several years. No parking. Yes, ma'am. Says if you go back right here in between this area here and this small area here, they'll walk around these businesses and we have signs right in these areas and this area also that lets them know that and both business owners have signs and they don't adhere to the signs. So do we know how heavily used this park is? I mean, is it. I can't tell you about compared to Eureka, it's less used, but driving by there, not lately, but whenever the weather's nice, we do see quite a few people, especially from this area, whether they're these apartment complexes or these apartment complexes that are that are further to the west of this intersection that they come down to use this playground. Is there connectivity to Eureka? Yes, ma'am. There's connectivity. So this sidewalk here, you can actually start here and walk the full loop all the way over to Eureka to around both lakes and come back around the T's lane and walk all the way back down. Yes, ma'am. Council member Meltzer. Would there be any benefit to transplanting the crepe Myrt les from Eagle and Elm to here? Council member. I was waiting for an answer. The answer to that question. Honestly, our department tried in the past to transplant trees and we could try that and see if they did live, but I can't guarantee anything on transplant, especially as long as the crepe Myrtles have been there. So. So, so I wanted to say, I really like the idea of doing something with this park space right across the street from Metsers and the doctor's office at the corner of the London, London area. Yes, ma'am. And T's Lee is the Denton Ballet Academy, which of course is is private, but does a lot in terms of, you know, they, they put on the nutcracker every year, do a lot for the, the community. And I know, and they have parking there. And my guess would be that a lot of the parking that the overflow parking, especially around the time of performances from the Denton Ballet Academy ends up at these, these other other businesses so that seems like it would be solving a problem . And not just for the businesses, but also in terms of for also traffic and pedestrian safety in that area, because I've seen, you know, people kind of trying to negotiate going in and out of you go into this little lot, can't find a space there, go across the street, you know, it's right at an intersection. So there really is a parking need. And it's also it's a neglected area for a park. It does look like a kind of a like an abandoned school playground kind of I think that's why it feels like it's a school. And there are a lot of children who live around there. And it is, you know, right now that whole area, it's very adult and that it's, you know, people run people jog along there. But it's a great space for play. So anyway, I really like all of this. I'm curious about the the figure for the the concrete and the parking. The the $91,000. Yes, ma'am. So actually, this right here is whenever we initially put the cost together, we haven't got we haven't received final costs for the permit previous payment, but it will be cheaper. So it will be less. Okay, got it. So part of the the 915 916 money that that Gary talked to you about that we transferred over into this project, we will not be using all that due to that we will have cost savings with the concrete. The the concrete in parking is the parking lot as well as a sidewalk and the curbing and the apron to go out to Teasley. So that's everything. Okay, including the parking. Got it. Supplies and installation. Got it. Okay, thanks. Councilman Brooks. Does the signage include a the typical signs that you see at all other parks that may not I don't know if there's one there that just says what is this part called? Does it have a name? It's just part of South Lakes. Okay, so it's just an extension. So what kind of signage are you so it'll be like the signs that we have now and then we would it would just say South Lakes to or little South Lake maybe we could name it whatever we want to. Yeah, we could use that. So. Okay. How big is that apron? What's the distance between the sidewalk and in Teasley Road? Do you know? Go up here. I'll introduce this is Glenn Glenn McClain, our landscape architect. Here, you got to talk. If you step up to the mic. 24 feet from the inside of curb up to the crosswalk area. Okay, I was just concerned to make sure that a vehicle could fit in there and not be blocking the sidewalk if someone's exiting and waiting to be able to turn out. Yes, it was designed that way. I know it doesn't really show this as well on this rendering here. So but it was designed so a car can fit in this area here. And if they're waiting for either pedestrians to cross or another car to pull in, they can they can get out of traffic and then also so a car can be here and not block the pedestrian traffic here whether it be joggers or dog walkers or you know, you walking along the path. I'm very glad to see that we're finally using the this type of permeable paver. I've seen it many years ago used for fire lanes around buildings that they can actually plant grass over it. So you have a fire lane that is green space as well. Yes. Councilman Brooks. My my only concern is is the cost when you look at the total cost of this. Pretty high up there for just say, the parking parking lot. But I mean, I like what you're trying to do. I guess it's I'm not I don't really get over there very often. And when I do, it's a complete utter traffic mess. So have you thought about or are we responsible for doing any kind of traffic study with the entrance exit there right there on the on the road? I'll let Pritnam speak to that. Okay. Pretend they smoke traffic engineer. Yes, we are the minute we punch a new entrance on T's Lee. Definitely we're going to look at traffic numbers. The access on the other side for residential areas. The other thing we're talking about is definitely how can residents access that particular and new entrance that we're trying to put in. So we're going to look at overall pedestrian as well as traffic access. When this comes back to us, I'd like to see these as separate items for consideration and then or or have all that information that you have included in our in our backup for this item. Especially it's really important. Thank you. Is there currently a curb cut there? Okay. Because I know there's one down a little further. Is that quite a ways down or is it? Okay. Is this Councilmember Melter. This curb cut will require take stop permit. So we'll go through the due process. I know you don't know this because you already said you didn't. But I wonder if you have an idea on order of magnitude going to the permeable from concrete. Do you think it's like more like 10% less or more like half ? Glenn can answer this better. I know he knows the exact number. If the parking lot was concrete only, it would be 138,000 instead of 91. So that that's the cost. 91 already reflects the permeable. Sorry, I spoke wrong. Oh, okay. Okay. I thought I saw an opportunity to between that and maybe sign a sculpture to get it to be more like 100,000 and that be, you know, meaningfully more palatable. But apparently that that opportunity is already baked in here. So Councilmember Husspeth. Thank you. Yeah. I'm okay with it as an outline for this reason. It sends a clear message to the business owners that we get it versus the emails that would come from people's cars getting towed because we've then said, hey, we don't get it or we have sticker shock. I mean, I think it's just so for me personally, and I hope there's consensus. If not, I get it. But I want to be very clear that I hear the business owners and I don't want them to get to the point. They're working with us currently and they're working with the citizens that are using it and it's been an ongoing problem and they've already started the process of them complaining. And the next thing is they start towing people to get their message across. And I don't want to get to that point. I want them to understand that we get it. And if you'll bear with us just a little while longer, we 'll have a solution. And then as far as the layout, I think maybe just in a perfect world, just past the that intersection so that people can't come out of the apartment and drive in there because really I want to motivate those that are walking across the street to continue to do so and those that are driving in the area to have a place to park and try to truly segregate those two users. And then if tongue in cheek, maybe we can just run up the rate on that on that covered table to offset the pricing over the next 80 years. We'll just get extra five bucks per rental. So thanks. Other questions? I guess one last thing from a direction standpoint. I know there was discussion on bringing it back and individual pieces. You know, if you like the direction we're heading, we can definitely move forward in that direction. You know, Dallas and Teasley could start fairly soon with some excavation of that of that road, but more and willing to bring back either all of them again for you to for individual consideration or we could move forward on one or come back on a couple of them at your your direction. Council, I would say if we're going to do a phase, the phase two portion of the eagle and an elm, at least a something in our backup or a Friday report. And if we've got issues with it, then we can ask for it to come back before council. Does that sound Council member Hussband? Yes. No, I think we should we should move forward all three. My personal preference. However, that's phased. And I don't know that it needs to come back. But for updates and questions as far as development, that's for me. Yeah. Council member, I would say as far as the South Lakes Park, and I love the idea and see the need for it. I'm totally supportive of it. I think it would be nice to get some community feedback from the residents. It sounds like we already talked to the business owners. There's definitely that need for parking. I, you know, wouldn't want to hold it up too much longer. But maybe just to have some meetings saying, hey, here's here's our plan and see what advice you would get, or at the very least just to get people in the area excited about it. And then then they can be on board as well. That's just a suggestion. I don't know how others feel about that. I don't see the harm in that. Council member, out there. Well, what I was gonna say was, I see the I'd be fine with moving forward in all three and having kind of a like a more like kind of a community. Here's what's happening. But that doesn't necessarily feel so good, right? Because you want people to have the opportunity to have input and not have it all be done. So I'm gonna listen for a little bit. I should recuse myself anyway, because the spelling of my name is close to Metzler. Any other comments? Are we looking at community input on all of them or just on the one I would I would say, we've been promising the one at Dallas and Teeley for a long time. And that definitely should be a proceed is my thought. And I'm also so know how much traffic goes in and out of the only lot for South Lake right now to have auxiliary parking for that. For that would be very good. So again, the only one I'm I would like to see before it proceeds is the one on Helm and Locust just to see what that final design is. It doesn't need to really be even a work session report. And we can easily put that in a Friday report with an updated design concept. Councilmember. Yeah. And just to clarify, I mean, I totally see the need for the parking too. I'm just thinking as far as the play area for people who have children in the area, you know, there might be something that they thought of that or maybe even kids, you know, have an idea about that part of the project. I mean, clearly the parking and the traffic is a really big issue and that's been worked out. I'm happy with that going forward. It's really just that the part that will be used by families and children. It'd be nice to get some input. So if I could kind of summarize on the Dallas, Teasley, Eagle and Elm, we'll put something in the Friday report. If we don't hear from you, we'll move. They're both under my signing authority. So the idea was if you were okay, we're going to run we're going to roll with it. If you have any concerns, let me know and we'll wait that week. We have no problem holding a community meeting on this parking lot. I mean, we can certainly let the schools know the neighborhoods know and this can have to be brought back to you anyway. There's no way it's coming under $100,000. So I think the one thing I wanted to ask counsel is, are you okay with the way it is? I'm getting the sense that we'll have the traffic study performed. I'm getting the sense that if there's a way to scale it back a little bit, we should look at that. Or are you okay with us pricing it the way it is and making value engineering recommendations to you if you need to if you feel like you need to lower the price? I just I don't want to put something through that you're uneasy with and I'm sensing some unease in us. Councilmember Braves. Well, I would like to know how old the structure is that's there. Because I know that they need to be replaced often. And are we upgrading this parking lot and lighting it and you know, we're going to need to update the place structure soon. I mean, I just kind of want to know and see the full scope of it. Because I know it's it would I mean, if we're going to do it, we need to do it. I mean, and if not, I mean, why do we need lighting? Why don't we just why does it just a day park? You know, I mean, like, bring that back. It hasn't had lighting since it's existed. You know, so, I mean, there's just some questions there. And okay, on that, if we're talking about the whole scope of the project, we'll bring this one back then one more time for just additional input after we've had a community meeting and we'll look into the lighting and make sure the pre time weighs in on the on the traffic issues. I think those are good questions. Not a long presentation. We're happy to answer those questions. Councilmember has and to give you my thoughts, I think it should be as scaled because it gives a maximum opportunity for someone to find parking. The nightmare for me would be to scale it down. Someone pulling and not be defined parking, pull out, you know, and you get to making blocks and frustrated. You know, you're right. Any other questions? Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll move on to item C. Receive a report hold a discussion give staff direction regarding pension benefits for public safety dispatchers. Okay, Brian Langley, Deputy City Manager. This is the most exciting part of your agenda. We're talking about pensions. I don't have any things to hand around for you, unfortunately, to talk to you about this. But this is an important issue for us to talk about some of the benefits for employees and how we believe some changes will improve the overall retention and recruitment of some of our dispatch positions. Bear with me for a few minutes while I go through a little bit of the background and history on this issue. I think it's important as we look at what type of solution that we're proposing. But I do have a short presentation for you on it. There's two pension plans that we have in the city of Dent on. One is the Denton Fireman's Relief and Retirement Fund. We simply just refer to that as the fire pension. And that covers all the firefighters in the city. We also have the Texas Municipal Retirement System or TMRS. And that covers all of our other employees, excluding temporary employees. Those of you who've been with the council for a while know that we had some actuarial difficulties with TMRS back in 2008. As a result of that, the city increased its contribution to the plan to improve the financial health of the fund over a long period of time. There was no increase in benefits, but we had to put in more money into the plan to amortize what we call the liabilities of the plan over time . The Firefighters Association took note of that increase in the TMRS rate, the contribution rate from the city into the plan, and wanted the same match going into the fire pension plan as well. So in 2010, the city agreed with that, and we agreed to match what was going into the fire pension plan to what was going into the TMRS. And that was done through the meet and confer agreement process. So that's our collective bargaining type process that we use to the city to work with our fire association and police association. Police is in TMRS, fire pension is the only separate plan. So that worked well, but the TMRS rate is declining, and it 's been declining for several years and it's due to the growth of the workforce and what we felt like were conservative actuarial assumptions that were part of the pension plan. Long term, that contribution rate is going to be declining. We expect that to be around 10% versus the current rate of about 17.18%. It reached a high of about 18.4% at its peak, and then it's been coming down over the last several years. So being tied to the TMRS rate, the fire pension plan itself experienced some financial challenges under that structure because they were tied to a rate which was developed for TMRS, which is designed to achieve their actuarial goals over time. Instead of having their own actuarial goals in the fire pension plan, they were just pegged to that rate, and as that rate came down, it wasn't enough to pay for those benefits long term in the fire pension plan. Council Member Meltzer. If you would mind being a little, taking it one level deeper when you talk about the actuarial issues, are we basically talking about the ratio of people paying in versus to people who are retired and drawing on it? No, it was really more about the cost of living adjustments and how those were factored into the contributions. And so each year, TMRS would tell us through their actuar ial studies, here's what the city needs to contribute along with employees to fund those benefits over time. The number they gave us for what we needed to contribute, we paid it 100% of it every year according to the actuarial studies. It just was the wrong number because it didn't capture some of these cost of living adjustments that needed to be in the plan. So they re-looked at that and said, "To catch up for all of those things that hadn't been paid in over time, here's the new rate you need to pay in to amortize that." So that's kind of how it was done. And the goal was to pay for that over a 25 or 30 year period. So the fund would be, once you finished that, assuming everything else was equal, you'd be 100% funded. So because of those issues that the fire pension experienced with being tied to the TMRS rate, the contribution rate needed to be adjusted and we looked at calculating what is the rate that's needed to be paid into the fire pension plan independently to achieve their own objectives. We went through a process, an extensive process looking at that. We worked with the Firefighters Association and the pension fund itself and we agreed to decouple the plans and provide a separate contribution rate that would pay off their liabilities over a 25 year period. So that's the same thing as TMRS, but now calculating what is the rate that you need to do that for fire pension. That's similar to the TMRS model and that was approved in December of 2017 as part of the Meet and Confer Amendment. So we went back after the Meet and Confer Contract was approved, the Fire Association asked all the firefighters to vote on this last year. They voted to make that amendment. The pension fund voted to make that amendment and then the city came back and made that amendment too. So that's kind of the basis for how we started this process . - Council Member Brooks. - And that was just for until the next Meet and Confer Agreement. - Right, the intent was to be a long term model for us to pay for those liabilities off over a long term period, but it only is through the end of 2019, September 2019. So just a few of the details of the 2017 agreement. We'll adopt a funding policy which achieves 100% funding ratio over what we call a 25 year closed amortization periods like a mortgage over time. You make payments to that plan to get it to be 100% funded. The city then increased our contribution rate to 18 and a half percent. And the way it was structured was that if through the process that we determined some of the actuarial numbers that we had were conservative and we beat those numbers, whether it was our investment rate of return, mortality tables or whatever it might be, that amortization period could be reduced. Once it fell below 20 years, that rate could start to fall and adjust with it. But it'd be 18 and a half percent until you got to 20 years or left on what was left to pay the liabilities and then that rate could fall. There'd be no benefit enhancements that would be approved by the board. That was also something that council wanted is that we didn 't want to fund, provide an increase in the cost, but that was to pay off the li abilities, not to fund new benefit increases. They agreed with that. The investment rate of return also would be conservatively estimated at 6.75%. That's also the rate that we use in TMRS. And if the city council would formally approve the actual report every two years, it's done every two years with the fire pension. It's done annually with TMRS. The assumptions and the contribution rates, you'd get a chance to see that every two years. So that 2017 report, December 31st of 2017, that's currently being prepared. We hope to bring that forward to you this fall. And as we talked about earlier, the term of the agreement was tied to the meet confer contract, which is December of 2019. So that's what we did in 2017 and we're looking to use that to build upon for this new issue. So as you know, we've been looking at public safety dispatch services. We made a lot of different improvements to improve those operations. We used to have that managed by the police department. We transitioned that to technology services. We believe it's more of a technology type function also provides greater services to both police and fire. It's a critical safety function for our citizens as well as all of our public safety responders. And so we want to make sure it's given all the attention that it needs to be a fully functioning center. We're undergoing several key projects related to that. A lot of these I know you're familiar with, but we're implementing a new CAD and RMS technology system that's about $3 million improvement to put in new software to manage all of the dispatch operations. We're renovating the dispatch center. That's about a $2 million project. That's currently on hold right now as we're looking at the city hall east police department renovation. We're looking at a concept plan about how to better lay out those, those different facilities and what kinds of improvements that we need to make to that . We're buying the new console furniture right now. And once that plan's outline and we understand exactly what that is, we'll move forward with this. We just didn't want to do something and then come back and have to tear that out and redo it. So that was kind of the intent. Councilmember Briggs and then Councilmember Arbital. So the little asterisk there that it's because that is really important to have that space redone. And so when you say it's on hold, what I, since it's a line item there, is there a way that you can say how long you think it may be and where are we at in the process on that? Because this is really important to the workers as well. It's absolutely critical to the workforce over there. Any of the, any of you who've seen that facility is in very poor condition and it's absolutely needed. We think about 30 to 60 days before we'll have a concept plan back on city hall east, which will incorporate this area plus all of the police department facility. Then we'll know, do we have enough space to do that or not? We were concerned that if we build that space out now and as Denton grows to 150,000 or 200,000 that we wouldn't have enough space for all the future dispatchers that we might need and that we'd have to then renovate it again. I think the other thing, Councilmember Briggs, is you know we met with a number of the employees in June and July of this year as well and there was concern about them not having any input on the renovations to their spaces. It was clear that there wasn't an ability to add space to the dispatch center and was it forward thinking enough that if we needed to add three, four, five more dispatches, what were we going to do with them? It'd be a nicer space but literally right on top of each other and we'd be coming back to you asking for additional dollars to knock down walls and do what we should have done right the first time. So we're taking a look at, you know, at least, we're really encouraging, let's take a look at what our next 10-year needs are. You know, right now I think that's reasonable to plan for. We're probably going to have to partner it with some, with police department renovations as well. So we'll be showing you first phase being the dispatch center and some potential modifications to the police department but we very well could be seeing additional build-out in an addition made to the current PD just to get them through the next 10 years. But the space back there, it's pretty poor and I just, I think we all feel that it was a short-sighted plan and we really need to improve the workflow and the working conditions for all those employees over there and trying to do it just once. And is that part of the space plan that we have seen with all the different buildings? Are you just trying to immediately go there for that build- out? We moved this, we quite frankly had not seen a plan for the police department and based upon taking several tours over there and meeting with the police officers and some of the staff, just decided it was time to hit the pause button, make sure that we were doing dispatch right. But we're clearly going to be coming back to you just like we did with the service center this year with a plan to go in and rehabilitate the police department, trying to get another five to 10-year life out of it. It is in worse shape in my opinion than the service center was. So I agree. So that's kind of where we're at. I think to do a ride down, when we feel like we've got a better handle and where we're going to be in 2030, we probably need to start talking about a different building. But right now, our main concern is we've got some space there, we've got the ability to potentially expand that facility if we need to. But we really want to go in and provide those workers a workspace that's quite frankly respectful. And what I'm saying right now, I'm not real impressed with and don't want our employees working in that environment. It's a mosquito. Apologize if I offended you. It was a mosquito. They're everywhere. Sorry. Yeah, so that actually what you just said touched on what my question was going to be, just to verify, because I agree, it is the dispatch center. It's like the garage band equivalent of a dispatch center. It's amazing that the people who are working out of there have done what they've done. You would never know when you call 911, you have an idea and this is not what you imagine. So I'm pleased to know that they're getting at least whatever console and furniture they need. I just wanted to verify that the employees who are using this console and furniture every day that they've had input on what it is that they want. Yes. Okay. Both on the technology and the buildings, that sort of thing. We're going to be back to you, I would say, probably in 60 days or so with a two-step process here. The first one is going to be focused on dispatch. Do we need to move some walls and knock some things out to get them more space? The second part will be probably preparing for some type of a CO package for you for the next budget year in terms of trying to get them some relief in the police department. But that facility needs some attention. Thank you. I'm just really glad to hear that the employees, especially at the dispatch center, are having direct input on this. Thank you. I appreciate those comments and that's why I specifically wanted to put down there that project was on hold but we're proceeding with the furniture because we've been having lots of conversations with Melissa and Suzanne over with dispatch, making sure those employees know that we understand the conditions they're working in are not ideal and we're going to fix it. But we do have that coming down the road. We also have enhanced the staffing model significantly. I know we spent some time talking to you about this in the past. We've created a manager for the entire division. We've added a management analyst back this past year. We also added three new FTEs for additional dispatcher positions in 2018-19 and we also significantly increased the salaries for existing staff and new employees. We were really having a turnover problem with our dispatch positions. We were having a difficulty in attracting applicants for those jobs, people that had experience in that particular field and we significantly increased the salaries to try to change that. We've had a real good result from that. Bottom line, the goal is to be the best public dispatch services in North Texas and we think with these improvements and the focus that we have going forward, we're going to be able to do that. So a couple other things to tell you about. So in 2006, there was a settlement with the fire pension plan. This was with the pension board. The city had it and the pension plan had a dispute about whether public dispatch employees are required to be in the fire pension plan. There was a disagreement about the interpretation of a state statute related to the fire pension plans called TELFRA. The lawsuit was filed by the board and it was settled in 2006. It requires all dispatchers to be included in the fire pension plan. As such, public safety dispatchers are required to be in the fire pension plan unless they're over 35 years of age when beginning service or any employee that participated in TMRS prior to 2006. And most of them are in the fire pension plan that we're seeing now. And the city's complied with that approach over the past several years, but we believe that arrangement contributes to turnover and recruitment difficulties and I'll give you three reasons why. The first is that the vesting period for the fire pension plan is significantly longer than TMRS. Fire pension's 10-year vesting. Remember you're eligible for any benefits, you have to be in that plan for 10 years to achieve that. TMRS is only five years. So a lot of those employees transition on to other departments, they may transition on to another city. They don't have the fire pension plan in other cities, so they never get vested or many of them never get vested in the fire pension plan. So that contributes to issues for us. The fire pension plan isn't portable to other positions or cities. So if you start out in a dispatch position and you want to become a police officer or you want to move to another department in the city, that benefit does not transfer to those other positions. And so you potentially lose those benefits that you've acc rued under the fire pension plan. And finally, the employee rate that you, the contribution rate that you make into the pension plan is significantly more for fire pension than it is for TMRS. For a TMRS employee, you're putting in 7% of your pay and for fire pension, you're putting in 12.6%. So those three factors together in our view contributes to difficulties in getting employees for fire or for dispatch positions. - Councilmember Briggs. - Have you spoken to the actual employees? - I have. - About this or surveyed them? I know that a while ago when we talked about pensions and fire, it was a big up to do because some people felt like they weren't contacted or communicated with. So I just wanted to make sure, and do you have feedback on those conversations? - Yeah, as I get through the presentation, what I'm proposing is that we give employees an option to decide whether or not they want to be in the fire pension plan or they want to move to TMRS. It would be an irrevocable option for the current employees , but for all future employees, it would be TMRS. And speaking with, I held a meeting last week with some of the dispatch employees. We've been working with Suzanne, the manager, Melissa Craft , who's over technology services. We've given several pieces of information to those employees and we had a meeting with them last week. They are very appreciative of the option and for most of them, they feel like it is an impediment for their careers at this point to be in the fire pension plan. A lot of them just don't make that vesting period. If you don't make the vesting period, you get your contributions back, but you don't get any interest earnings on those contributions and you don't get the city's match. So if you're in the plan for six, seven, eight years, you just get what you put back into it out. You may discuss this in your presentation, but how does this affect the fire pension itself? I'll talk about that in just a moment. Any other questions on that? Councilmember Melton. Yeah, if it's coming up, you can say so. Are there benefits if employees are given the choice, are there benefits to being in the fire pension? Is it all totally lopsided that costs more or get less? Don't invest. I'll switch to this slide. This might help you a little bit. So there are some differences between the plans. There's a vesting difference, as I mentioned to you, and this is very high level. Employees contribute 12.6 versus the seven that I mentioned to you. Fire pension plan is what's called a defined benefit plan. So for your average three years of salary, 2.59% will be the benefit of your pay that you receive once you retire. It's typically a little bit better of a plan if you retire earlier. Again, it's designed for firefighters in mind, so as you work there for many years, it's designed to provide a benefit earlier in retirement. TMRS on the other hand is a cash balance plan, so it's not a defined benefit. So it's based on what the value of the contributions that you've put in and what the city's put in plus the interest earnings gives you a benefit. More like a 401(k) something? There are elements like that, but once you retire, it's a set benefit that's guaranteed. But then it's a hybrid approach. And it works out typically to about 2.2 or 2.3% type of a defined benefit, similar to that in terms of the benefits. So it's a little bit lower benefit, but you're putting in less money on front end as well. Again, the distinguishing fact is that it's not available in other departments or cities for the fire pension plan. There are other fire pension plans around the state, but they're not portable. Each city has their own. TMRS on the other hand is a very large system, about 150, 000 employees that are part of it. Multiple different cities, over 800 different cities there. About a $28 billion plan versus about a 70 or I think it's going to be 80 or $90 million plan right now for the fire pension system. Both of them have a strong funded ratio, about 83% for TMRS and climbing. And I think with the changes that we made that I mentioned to you before, fire pension plan is also going to be increasing as well. And you'll have that actual report soon. Does that answer the question, Councilmember? So the proposed solution that we've come up with is again to enhance the recruitment and retention of those public dispatchers is to amend the meet and confer agreement with the Firefighters Association. And it would remove the requirement that public security dispatchers be in the fire pension plan itself and allow existing employees to choose where they want to remain in the fund or move to TMRS. So we want to emphasize that we're not looking to force anyone to do something that they're not comfortable with. It's truly a choice for them. We do have some employees who have vested or close to being vested in the fire pension system and they will likely probably choose to stay in that system for those reasons. But it's their choice to have that. But as I mentioned before, it would be an irrevocable decision. So we'll give those employees a period of time to get all the facts, decide what they want to do and then that will be a decision going forward. All new dispatch employees would be enrolled in TMRS and not have the option to go to fire pension. So the effect on the plan is that because the turnover in the dispatcher positions has generally been an actuarially positive fact for those positions to be in the fire pension plan because it's contributed positively to the funding of the plan because they typically don't vest and have a benefit that has to be paid out of that. So we looked at working with the actuary for the fire pension plan. We asked them to calculate what would be the impact to make the fund whole. Our interest is to make the fund whole and to make sure that they're not having any negative impact of this change. They indicated that the rate would have to go about 0.28% on our contribution rate to make that system whole. The net effect of that is about $33,000 per year to the city because those employees, if they moved out of the fire pension plan, they would move into TMRS. So the net effect and that's a lower contribution that we have to make. So the net cost is about $33,000. I included an exhibit in your backup to show you that in a little bit more detail. What we'd also like to do is reexamine the cost of those contributions every two years through the actuarial process. So as I mentioned to you before, we're going to be calculating that every two years. You're going to review the actuarial report and whatever we need to contribute into the plan to amortize the liabilities off over 25 years, we'll calculate that and make that payment. So that's initially what that number is, 18.78%, but that would be adjusted every two years as we look at it. I've discussed this extensively with the Firefighters Association President and the Board Chair of the Fire Pension Fund. They're supportive of this amendment and concept. It will require a separate ratification vote of the firefighters themselves. So it will have to be presented to the membership and they 'll have to vote to approve that. And it would also require a separate vote of the Fire P ension Fund as well. If they do approve that and recommend approval, we'd bring that back and then the council would be asked to have an action item to actually approve the amendment as well. And the intent would have for those changes to be effect on January 1. - Council Member Meltzer. - It was very helpful that you kind of described the differences between the outcomes for the participants. And it strikes me that for some people, having that defined deterministic, defined pension benefit is like one of the last great deals in America for working people. And why wouldn't we at least be able to continue to allow employees, new dispatch employees the option of going one way or the other? - Well I think it needs to be clear what plan people are in . It's, you can't really have an option for people to come in on a continual basis of what plan they want to be a part of. It needs to be clear in the agreement itself how that's gonna be governed. We also believe that that creates a problem in getting talent for the city itself by having some ambiguity or confusion about who, what plan would you be in. If it's just TMRS city, that's a very stable benefit in the municipal workforce and think something that would be very attractive to a lot of people. It makes it difficult to have options going forward of how you're gonna do that. Plus you don't know how to fund it going forward in the act uarial systems for both plans. You need to have some certainty. What employees are in, what are gonna be their liabilities and what contributions do we need to make? If we had people coming in and out of the plans, then you'd have to radically change the contributions potentially each year. - I'm sorry, I'm trying to find my point. I didn't mean to suggest people coming in and out, but that just that new employees coming in might have the option. That was, so I'm not trying to gainsaver what you're saying . I just wanna make sure you're responding to it, you know, what I intended. - And wouldn't you sort of know what the adoption rate is over time as far as planning, you know, wouldn't you have trends in terms of how many tend to pick one versus the other? That would help you plan and figure out funding. - I suppose we could look at that. I apologize if I didn't understand the question correctly, but I think it's one of those things we have to look at. What employees do we think are going to be in this plan over time and what rate do we need to contribute over time to pay for those benefits? And right now we wouldn't know that. I think practically virtually every new employee would wanna be in TMRS versus the fire pension plan is what we're seeing. In fact, we get complaints about that having to be forced into the fire pension plan. So I think practically most of them would go anyway. - That's my briefs. - And with the legal issues of the past, would there be any more, would there be current legal issues? I mean, if we tried to separate again or since it was settled and not really decided. - So this agreement would settle, agreed to settle that dispute through this agreement and we would make reference to it in the meet and confer agreement amendment that this was, this is how we're gonna treat that issue going forward. - Okay. - Does that answer your question? - Yeah, it does. Yeah. And so I have kind of maybe a stupid, silly question right now because the dispatchers, they do fire in police, correct? So it's 911. And the police are on regular TMRS. - Police officers. - Police officers. - Yes ma'am. - Yes. And not the fire pension. So but the dispatchers handle both calls. - Yes. - So I'm just kind of confused to it. Can you explain like, so they just, they handle both calls, but they settle into one pension over the other. Is that why you think they should have the option? I mean, I'm just, I may not, I'm just kind of figure like, why are they all of a sudden belong to the fire department if they answer both calls for just general public safety? - So I think that goes back to the 2006 lawsuit that was filed. I think there was a dispute about that, that particular issue of if they're dealing with any part of the fire business that therefore they have to be part of the fire pension plan. At least that was what the argument was made. And so that was the settlement was to put all of them into the fire pension plan. - Okay, yeah, I just. - No, it's a great question. It's been, for those of us coming in new to the organization, it's always been difficult to explain what that distinction is and how it works. There is confusion that's had when employees come in, they think they're in team arrest and then they're told, no, you're in the other plan. So it's a source of confusion for that whole area. It needs to be clear. This is what the benefits are for that position. When we decide that they need to be, if we decide that they wanna stay in fire pension, that's fine, but we can be clear with that. But it is a source of confusion for those employees. And plus you have someone sitting side by side that you that may have a different contribution to their plan versus yours is different. You're like, well, we're doing the same job. Why is this different? It's hard to explain. - Council member Melton. - Yeah, it sounds like, you know, the Firefighters Association would have their vote and so that will be the critical input. But do you have a point of view on why Firefighter Association members would want to support this? - Yeah, I think the interest for both fire, the fire department and the police department is public safety for both the citizens and the first responders. I think everyone has a similar interest that we wanna have good people be attracted to these positions. We want them to be retained. We want them to be properly trained, have the workspaces, all the equipment to do that job well because it helps public safety. So those are my discussions with them is they're interested in that for those reasons. They're also interested in making sure that the plan is made whole. And in my mind, this is a win for everyone is that we get the benefit that's appropriate for the dispatchers. We're able to retain them for longer periods of time, attract better candidates and get better service to the residents. So that's kinda how we're looking at it. We don't wanna look at it from a position that the fire pension loses anything. We're looking to try to make that pension whole and make sure that they're provided the contributions they need to have the same level of benefits they've always had. - Councilmember Armatul. - So I strongly support option number two. I've talked with some firefighters about it and it's what will do a lot to help with recruitment and retention and morale. I did have a question for Chief Hedges. I don't know if that's acceptable. So I've already made it clear where my direction is. So this my direction doesn't hinge on this, but I'm curious . So for firefighters who are kind of on the verge of retirement or looking towards retirement now who are gonna be staying, presumably staying with the Denton plan because it's too late for them to change. Do they feel some, I don't know, is there a sense of, do they feel like the new recruits or the younger firefighters are getting a better deal? Do they feel, is there some kind of tension there? - As far as fire department members, this will not change. They'll be under the fire pension. This is specifically for public safety dispatchers, correct ? - That's correct. - So this is- - So I'm sorry. I said, sorry, dispatchers, sorry. Yes, yeah. - As far as feedback from the dispatchers, do you think they get more benefit? - You know, I actually have not talked to dispatchers over this. Brian may be able to actually answer that question more effective, but I think if you just offer options, period, it's more advantageous. And we have constantly got feedback that it's very hard to bring in people to fill these dispatch positions based on this. I mean, that's a huge commitment. When your hourly rate's not very high and you're putting in 12% versus other people putting in just seven, that's a huge start comparison there . - Yeah. Well, so thank you. Thank you very much. And yeah, I'm really thrilled. I think this combined with the improvements to the space, it'll just make a huge difference. They've been doing a lot to take care of us and now we're- - It's our turn. - Taking care of, yeah, exactly. So thank you. - Thanks. - Brian, I do have one question. - Yes, sir. - On the, and I'm for option two as well, but on the five- year vesting with TMRS, it says it's portable across departments and cities. So do you have to be at the city for five years for it to carry with you or, I mean, if somebody trans, if we hire an employee that was working for Lewisville or Garland or someplace else, did they- - It has to be in TMRS for five years. So they'll be able to vest in the next city, keeping moving forward. - Okay. So they'd be able to bring with them as long as they stay in the system anything that Lewisville or the other city put in? - That's correct. And then their benefits are tied to whatever options that those cities selected. So each city gets to choose in TMRS what types of options they want to have. And so they could be slightly different, but they'd certainly get that credit. I do also want to mention too that those that have been in fire pension, if they've been there for two, three, four, five years and they decide to go to TMRS, they'll get a credit for their time that they've worked in TMRS towards the retirement age. They won't get any monetary benefit, but they'd get a credit for that time that they've worked as well. - All right. Council, further direction? Council Member Hussman? - Option two as well. - Council Member Briggs? - I would like to see an actual survey, some data with the employees. I know that you said you've talked to a few people, but just to have that data behind their decision would be really helpful. - Okay. - And I understand all the issues that you've been talking to. And I would be interested on if a vote like this would pass in the pension board. And if council gives this direction and the vote doesn't pass, what happens? - That we don't move forward. - Okay. - It would have to pass. We'd have to have the agreement of the firefighters and you 'd have to have the decision of the pension board itself as well. - Right. I'd be interested to see what they have to say for sure. - Absolutely. And I think the intent here was this is the first time you 've seen this issue, is to make sure you were briefed on it, understood it, got direction from you. So then I could give direction to them to say, we're in agreement if you're in agreement. And so then they would need to start that process and go through that. But again, the preliminary indications are that is that they're supportive of it. - Council Member Good? - I would say yes. - Council Member Good? - Yeah, I would say yes. - Yeah, I'm fine with two because the vote will be the ultimate employee input. So it's in their hands. - I can still do the survey, get it to you, get that information so you can see that as well from the dispatchers themselves. - Well, for me, I mean, it would be great for the pension board as well to see that. I mean, any kind of, it may help with decisions to see where they actually stand. - I'd be glad to do that. - Okay. - Other comments? - We'll proceed with option two. Thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it. - All right. All right. And that concludes our work session items. We will now adjourn at 5.02 and reconvene for our regular meeting at 6.30. Thank you. - I want to welcome everyone. We do have a quorum present. This is a regular meeting of the Denton City Council. Calling it to order at 6.30. The first item on the agenda is the pledge to the Texas, to the American and the Texas flags. So please stand with me if you're able. - I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. - We honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to the city of Texas, one state under God, one nation. - We've got a couple of proclamations this evening. The first one is extra mile day. Do we have anyone coming down for this? All right. We'll just go ahead with it. Proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton. To all whom these presents shall come, greetings. Whereas the city of Denton is a community which acknowled ges that special vibrancy exists within the entire community when its individual citizens collectively go the extra mile in personal efforts, volunteerism and service. And whereas the city of Denton is a community which encourages its citizens to maximize their personal contribution to the community by giving themselves wholeheartedly and with total effort, commitment and conviction to their individual ambitions, family, friends, community. And whereas the city of Denton is a community which chooses to shine a light and celebrate individuals and organizations within its community who go the extra mile in order to make difference and lift up fellow members of the community. And whereas the city of Denton acknowledges the mission of extra mile America that create -- to create 575 extra mile cities in America and is proud to support extra mile day on November 1st, 2018. Now, therefore, I John Ryan on behalf of Chris Watts, the mayor of the city of Denton, do here by declare and proclaim November 1st, 2018 as extra mile day in the city of Denton and urge each individual in the community to take time on this day to not only go the extra mile in his or her own life, but also acknowledge all those who are inspirational in their efforts and commitment to make their organizations , families, committees, community, country and the world a better place. And the next one is Marine Corps 243rd birthday celebration . Do we have anyone coming down for that? Close enough. Proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton to all whom these presents shall come, greetings. Whereas the Marine Corps League is the only congressional charted U.S. Marine Corps related veterans organization in the United States, its congressional charter was approved by the 75th U.S. Congress and signed by President Franklin D. Roosevelt on August 4th, 1937. The organization credits its founding in 1923 to legendary Marine Corps commandant John A. Lejeune and whereas the Marine Corps League detachment number 1300 meets in Denton to join together with camaraderie and fellowship for the purpose of preserving the traditions and promoting the interests of the United States Marine Corps by banning together those who are now serving in the United States Marine Corps and those who have been honorably discharged from that service that they may effectively promote the ideas of American freedom and democracy voluntarily aiding and rendering assistance to all Marines and former Marines and to their widows and orphans and to perpetuate the history of the United States Marine Corps and by fitting acts to observe the anniversaries and historical occasions of particular interests of the Marines. And whereas Marine Corps League Lance Corporal Jacob R. Leg ault detachment number 1300 is proud to announce the U.S. Marine Corps 243rd birthday charity ball to be held at Embassy Suites located at 3100 Town Center Trail in Denton, Texas. At this charity ball U.S. Marine Corps Corporal Brian Aft a wounded warrior will be the honored guest. And whereas the Marine Corps League is asking that the citizens of the city of Denton join your local Marines, Navy corpsmen and your community friends for one of a kind event in Denton. Come witness the military tradition and ceremony while enjoying an evening of good food, music, dancing and fun all while supporting a good cause. Now therefore I John Ryan on behalf of Chris Watts the mayor of Denton do hereby declare and proclaim November 10th 2018 as the United States Marine Corps 243rd birthday celebration in the city of Denton and encourage all citizens to join together to attend or support the upcoming United States Marine Corps 243rd birthday charity ball. Next we have the friends of the library week. I do believe we have some if you would like to come on down . And if you would like to introduce yourselves. I'm Bob Desiderato I am president of the board of directors of the friends of the Denton public libraries. Terry Lupo vice president. Barbara Riser board member. Keith Shelton secretary. Thank you. Great organization. Proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton to all whom these presence shall come greetings and welcome to the city of Denton. I am the president of the friends of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. 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I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. I am the president of the Denton public library. And you just, just seeing your calm presence, which I have seen in other tense moments, just really helps. So congratulations. And it was great working with you even for the short time that I did. We have a motion and a second. All those in favor, raise your right hand. Are we on the board? We can do it on the board. Yeah, yeah, vote me on. Yeah, vote on the board. What happens if it doesn't pass? Does he stay? The motion carries six to zero. Mark, I'm sure we are definitely going to miss you. I'm sure I'll see you at transportation summits at the regional transportation commission meetings every month. And you greatly appreciate your service. Because I see you. Thank you. The next item up is presentations from members of the public. If we can play the tape, please. The Denton City Council has adopted rules of procedure, including a code of conduct that applies to citizens as well as council members. These rules were enacted to promote an orderly process and to preserve decorum. Here is a brief review of the rules that apply to citizen reports. Citizens will have four minutes to give a scheduled citizen report and four minutes to give an open mic report. There will be an electronic bell when time has expired. If the remarks are not concluded by that time, the citizen will be asked to stop speaking. If the citizen does not cease and a second request is made, the mayor will request to have the citizen removed from the council chamber. Citizens are asked not to approach the dais. If a citizen has papers or other materials to hand out to the council, please let the city secretary know in advance. For scheduled citizen reports, the council may initiate discussion or questions following each citizen report. For non-scheduled open mic citizen reports, the council may listen to citizens speak. However, because no notice of the subject of the open mic report has been provided to the public in advance, the Texas Open Meetings Act limits any deliberation or decision by the council, too. A proposal to place the item on a future agenda, a statement of factual policy, or a recitation of existing policy. Citizens are asked to direct all remarks and questions to the council as a whole and not to any individual member. Please refrain from making abusive, personal, impertinent, profane, or slanderous remarks. Anyone who violates this council rule of procedure may be immediately removed from the council chamber. Thank you in advance. Copies of the rules of procedure are available from the city secretary. All right. And we do have two people who have scheduled to speak this evening and one that will be on open mic. The first person up is Vicki Oppenheimer regarding the Dent on Community Market. Good evening. I'm Vicki Oppenheimer, 600 Winfield Street here in Denton. I am executive director of the Denton Community Market and also one of its original founders 10 years ago. So I'm here tonight to give you an update on the market, very brief update, and also talk to you about some of our needs, ongoing needs as an organization. We've had really a great year, the exception of the weather , very challenging year in terms of weather as an outdoor event. But we've done many great things this year. We have a new vendor safety training class that the fire department helped us with. We have a certified farmers program that we started this year. We had a kids art party at the Greater Denton Arts Council. Mayor's Day of Concern held its event at the market. We had a harvest day earlier this year, a farm heritage day with the Denton County. We had Mother's Day in conjunction with Denton County as well. We had two opening days because the first day was so cold. We had to have a redo of the opening day. We've had the incredible growth of our WIC voucher program where we give out vouchers for fresh produce at the market to families in need. And we recently had the Hispanic Heritage Festival, which was very successful with thousands of attendees. I also want to talk about our, we have consistently have large numbers of vendors. We have over 160 currently, still people applying, although it's almost the end of the year. And we turn away vendors on a regular basis. As you can see, we have almost 30 farmers that are fairly regular at the market, along with many artisans and local organizations as well. I want to talk about very briefly about a new study that was done on the market by Intelytics. It's using data from your cell phones. And over a two year period, 3,785 visitors, approximately 46 percent are from outside of Denton. I really want to point out that number because it's higher than our current estimates. Nearly 50 percent of our visitors are coming from outside of Denton. That's definitely an increase from before. We have starter families that are regularly attending, young couples with children, very prosperous couples as well, as well as affluent middle age couples. These are the top segments out of that group. And the median household income is 68,000. We're seeing an increase in that income levels with our weekly surveys as well. We have approximately, we accept approximately 67 percent of our vendor applications. We have many performance applications, performers on a weekly basis. We have volunteers coming more and more to help us out. And I just want to point out that all of this takes resources. You did sponsor our event, Positive Vibes, which is well attended. And we have our upcoming anniversary. As you can see, we're just in one corner. But we have had to cancel weather because of bad weather. We've had to cancel three markets so far. We've had five bad weather days. Those days, business almost ceases to exist. We do not have the facilities related as other markets have , such as Capell and Farmers Branch. They have staff funding by the city. They have facilities funding. Some of them even have city benefits. And they have city staff support. I'm just saying, as a size of the market that we have, we are a large market. We are not a small or medium-sized market. We have a large number of visitors every week. We have a large number of vendors every week, 70 to 100 vendors. We have significant needs for funding and facilities. Thank you. Councilmember Arnottor. So thank you for sharing this information with us. So first of all, I'm going to tell you what you already know, I think, which is that Denton Community Market is really an outstanding incubator for local small businesses. It is amazing to me to hear your success stories and to see how grassroots this has been. I would love to see the city, speaking for myself, do even more to be able to give you a covered space and the kinds of things that Capell and Farmers Branch have . I was wondering, have you thought about putting a proposal, an actual kind of proposal together to come before Council, or are you just kind of sharing this with us to kind of get us just thinking about it on our own, or can we expect a proposal upcoming? Well, we can do either options possible. We do have some ongoing improvements to the site, as you may know, from money that was given to the county, but that money is not adequate to address all of our needs. And certainly I can present a proposal for further funding needs of facilities, including bathrooms, for instance. We have a great need for bathrooms, as well as staffing needs. We have to raise over 50% of our funding from fundraisers, grants, and donations. It's a very difficult situation, and our needs are growing. So certainly I can do that. Thank you. Councilmember Hespeth. Thank you. Thank you for the presentation. So I would just ask if you could capture what meets needs best or rank those. So if it's staff, if it's -- I think the restrooms, the temporary restrooms are on the way, or if that's -- I don't know where that is, but I know it was proposed. But just looking long-term, if you could outline -- it would help me to understand what kind of in top-to-bottom order helps best, right? I want to be effective where we can. So if it's dollars to apply to this, or if it's reorgan izing the structure of things so there's more security, I just don't know what that would be most helpful, so if you could propose that to staff, then we can -- I can take a look at that and see where we can gain traction. Okay. I'd be happy to do so. I can definitely give you a ranked order of things, yes. Excellent. I appreciate it. Thank you. Councilmember Briggs. Hi, Vicki. Hi. So on the -- with the study and the data, do you know exactly where people are coming from? Did you ask for zip codes in -- Well, this study is fascinating because it is from cell phone data. So we actually know where people were sleeping at 1 a.m. in the morning. So we know exactly where they came from. We're just a little scary, but yes. And we also know where they went afterwards. So we know that 30% or so of our visitors are going to the downtown. We know exactly the zip codes that they're coming from. We know their characteristics. And do those visitors stay the night in Denton? There are some cases where that happens. It's not that common, but there are -- I can look into that further. But in the broad sense, a lot of people are going to the downtown afterwards within an hour or so. Well, you know, we had a presentation earlier today on STO KE, and I feel like they do -- or the goal is for the entrepreneurial tech community what you do for the makerspace craft community. And so we're trying to promote the same type of thing in just different ways. So I appreciate you coming to speak to us. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. Our next speaker is Raina Gallion regarding traffic on Teas ley Lane and safety of school children. So Raina is a third grader who is having a really bad asthma attack. I just heard from her mother. So she suffers from asthma. So thoughts and prayers to her. But she will be back when she's feeling better. Okay. All right. And we will move on. We do have one blue card from Randy Hunt. If you come down, state your name and address, and your time will begin. So I'm Randy Hunt. I'm at 722 West Oak Street. I wanted to give you a positive report. Something that's got started four years ago and is based on incentives. So we finished a survey of O'Neill Ford structures for the Texas Historic Commission. And out of that, I'm glad to be able to tell you all tonight that the Fairhaven retirement home is going to be historically restored. That is based upon the incentives that we started, which were tax credits. It had nothing to do with city incentives. It had everything to do with IRS and state tax credits. So I wanted to move on and let you know that our John B. Denton College neighborhood historic district will be approved the first part of next year by the Texas Historic Commission. It will be recognized as a national registered district. As well as the THC, the Texas Historic Commission, has given us approval to do two more surveys. So I brought a couple of maps, and I didn't think about how to do this very well. So my apologies. Let us pass it around to free y'all. Can I do it? So the first segment shows what is defined as our Oak Hick ory Historic District. Look at the abundance of houses in there in 1921. Now, I'm going to move the map down. This is the area around normal, Bryan, which is called Lula , Fry, and that area, which is just north of UNT. There's a lot of houses that were established there. So the importance of that is that in 1995 THC paid for another survey, which is indicated here with interest in the green highlighted areas. So that spurred another survey. And that's what we're doing right now. That's what's going to lead to another national registered district. These districts are earned and they show a lot of respect, not only to the neighborhood's integrity, but to the sanct ity of a neighborhood. So I'm going to ask you a rhetorical question. How many of y'all, as you're driving home, pass by apartments or SROs? How many of y'all ever notice that on the square in downtown, we have a 10-story high rise? Does that seem unusual? Good, because you need to be desensitized and you need to be aware of what does it feel like to be in a neighborhood that's constantly threatened by developers. How would you like to have 541 beating hearts showing up within your neighborhood district area? It's not a pleasant thought. But the positive thing is that we have found ways to work with developers, to work with those that have rental properties. And by creating these national registered districts, they will get a 45 percent incentive to be respectful to not only the properties that they have, but to the neighborhoods where they're located. So to prove the point, the Fairhaven is using that. The Fine Arts Theater on the square is using that same incentive. There will probably be some other announcements that we can make soon, because the only national registered district right now is just around the square. But the point is that national registered districts are earned. The THC holds high expectations. And we need to respect neighborhoods. A couple of questions. Councilmember Hussman. Oh, I'm sorry. Actually, we forgot which section we're on. We can't do questions, but we can just make comment on. So Councilmember Hussman. That's perfect. No, just kidding. No, thank you for the presentation. Thank you for the information. I'll follow up with you. And I can't say enough great things about getting that Fair haven project going. It's been a long gap between opportunities there. And to have that revitalized will be fantastic for our city . And then you talked about the stuff on the square proper in the number one district in the city. So I'm excited about those projects coming to fruition as well. So thank you. I'm going to remind the councilmembers that no notice to the public as to the speaker has been posted. And this is the dangerous area for councilmembers to start in deliberating, discussing, and engaging in questions, Q&A with the speaker. I was strongly advised not to continue this, just discussing what the item is, because the public has not had notice of this in advance as required by the Texas Open Meetings Act. So what I'll do is I'll come back. I'll have it posted. Then we can enter into conversations, which should not be limited. Thank you, Mr. Ha. Next up is our consent agenda. Councilmember Hussmuth. Move approval of the consent agenda, but for item I. All right. Councilmember Brooks. Second. We have a motion and a second to approve the consent agenda , except for item I. All those in favor, please vote on the board. And the motion passes six to zero. Next, we will take up item I, which is consider adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton in regards to a tree purchase of trees. Good evening, City Council, Gary Pack and Director Parks and Recreation. I have a short presentation for you. Okay. Parks and forestry, our beautification efforts. First, start off with our purpose of planting trees, obviously, is to increase our tree canopy and just general overall city beautification. For the next few years, we plan on at a minimum of 10 plus additional tree projects we've identified as of right now, obviously, a couple of years out. That's a work in progress still and can change, and that's broken over a four-year period. Our tree contract that's being proposed tonight is for trees, for the purchase of the tree, actual planting, the warranty for a total of $800,000. The funding sources is the tree mitigation fund is one source. Current balance roughly is $2.1 million. Also, funding tree planting efforts are various grants. This summer, we awarded a green ribbon grant from Textot for beautification and tree plannings on University Drive. So we'll be working with them on that in the coming few months. And then also capital projects that are approved, whether it's a bond project or a city allocated project, can also improve, can include tree planting efforts. Our previous tree planting contract was a three-year contract. It was a total of $450,000. Actual expenses were roughly $422,000, and we planted just over 1,500 trees during that three-year contract, specifically in parks and recreation. And those are a listing of the various projects we did. I realize that's kind of hard to see, but a total of 1,500 trees. Our proposed tree planting efforts are there's a number of highways or highways and state local roads and median projects on that. It's a four-year contract. It's $800,000 specifically for parks. Proposed annual expenses, roughly $200,000 not locked into that number. We don't have to spend $200,000. We don't have to spend anything. We could decide not to do anything and spend up to the total of $800,000 over the course of the four years. So roughly we're estimating roughly around 500 trees annually. So currently right now, a three-year, a three-inch tree with a one-year warranty is $400. With no warranty, it's $360. That's up, I think our past tree contract was right around $325 for a three-inch tree. Now that price does vary based on the size of tree and the type of tree that you put in the ground as well. From a buffer zone, I'll let Ethan talk a little bit about this. Good evening, members of the council. We have provided an informal staff report a couple of weeks ago providing a status update on plans to improve the landscape buffer around the landfill. So as part of this agreement, the Solid Waste Department is also purchasing some trees. Like I mentioned, the purpose is to improve the landscape buffer and also mitigate the loss of trees that we've lost over the years. Project milestones, very similar to what Gary mentioned, is we have landscape design, purchase planting of trees. We're also going to be installing an irrigation system that 's not part of tonight's item. The tree planting, however, is broken into three phases, which I've detailed here on the right. The first two phases we have basically designed complete for those. The third phase is going to be dependent on the realignment of Mayhill Road. So that will be completed in a couple of years out. For tonight's item, we do have trees, purchase planting and warranty for $406,000. The breakdown is there on the right. The first two phases of our project take us up to that spend amount that you see there totaled out. It does allow for additional spending for phase three and additional onsite planning for us to remediate all the trees or to mitigate all the trees that have been lost. And the funding source for this is in the Solid Waste Capital Project. I'll stand for any questions or turn it over to Gary. One more slide. In regards to the Tree Fund history, just kind of a recap. I had mentioned earlier that while we do look at the Tree Fund as a resource, we are looking at other opportunities such as TextDOT for the Green Ribbon Grant. So just to give you a quick summary, you can see the expenses. For instance, in '17-'18 were $279,000. The revenues were $307,000, so a little more revenue was coming in as opposed to what was being expended. Last year, we were aggressive in our tree planting efforts. We spent $878,000 and revenues were $310,000. Now, out of that, about 50% of that is infrastructure and additional costs outside of just the cost of the tree. That's irrigation, boring if we need to, from median to median or to islands, to electricity for water taps, that type of thing. So that is compounded. So roughly you can figure 50% of that cost is from the actual tree. The contract that's in front of you today is just for tree expenses and installation, the mulch and the fertilizer. - Council Member Armitage. - Okay, so thank you for that presentation. I'm really glad that the item was pulled for discussion because $800,000 is a lot of money for the consent agenda. I have a number of questions and concerns, but I'll preface them by saying that these questions and concerns come from not only a sense of how much money that is, $800,000, a lot of money, but also my understanding of how finite and precious our tree fund is and how finite and precious our trees are. So these questions, which are questions of concern, don't come from my trying to block trees, but from how seriously I take this issue. So first of all, why the $800,000 all at once? Why are we voting on that all at once for parks if it could be just $200,000 each year? Is that to secure the best deal with this tree business? - Yeah, so it's a four-year agreement with renewals each year. So it's $200,000 roughly per year over a four-year term. We could have gone out for just one year, but we anticipated if we went more than one year, we might get a better price. So that way they're kind of locked in at that price, and also it protects us a little bit from inflation as well. So if we went out every single year, the price could jump a little bit more drastically. - And was any effort made to check with the company to see what their offer might be for a one-year agreement? - No, ma'am. - Okay. So I would love to see that possibility explored. And I'd also like to see, so I read the backup on this item . I would love to see a couple maps to help me decide on this . I feel like I don't quite have enough information to vote yes on this right now. I'd like to see a map of, or probably multiple maps of where you imagine these trees being planted in each of these areas. And I realize that's a lot of trees. It doesn't have to be pictures of the trees, but little dots. And then for the landfill, a similar thing. I'd like to see dots around the landfill, a map of here's where the trees are around the landfill now and where they could be. I'm kind of looking at Ethan over your shoulder. And then secondly, I would like to see, and these are all things that will help me decide, not just trying to create busy work, is I'd like to see a map of all of the different pots of bond money and other pots of money that have been set aside for parks. I know we've got the 2014 bond package and we've got some other monies put aside for parks. I would like a map of the amount of money and what areas those pots of money cover so that we can get a picture of how much of the funding for whatever trees are needed might possibly be able to come out of some of those bond promises or, I forget that there was another agreement, some number 961, something like that, that came up in a previous parks discussion today. And for us, it attaches an appendix, the terms for each of those different resolutions so that council could have a sense of if there's other sources of money that have already been put aside for parks that could legally and legitimately be used for this purpose so that with some of this money we could use to further protect existing trees, to invest for our trees for the future. So those are some things that would help me make my decision on this easier. Thank you. - Does the council member intend this all to be part of a motion to postpone to an event certain for when these requests are fulfilled for taking action on this item? - That's a good question. I first wanted to hear what others had to say for right now. That's just some information I would like and I'll hear what others have to say and then decide. Good question. - Gary, as I understand this is like we go out and we're going to buy office supplies and we do a contract and we say, "How much are you going to charge me for a case of paper? How much are you going to charge me for a box of pens?" We don't know over the next four years how much we're, we know that we're covered with this, but we don't know how much each year or how many boxes of paper we're going to need that type of thing. Is that correct? This isn't for specific projects. - We've identified projects kind of trying to vision out the next few years and planning efforts and plan that effort. But no, I mean we can decide that we're not going to plan on this location. It's up to us to determine that. We're not locked in by the contract to buy X number of trees each year or over the term of the contract. - That just kind of locks in our pricing for the next four years. - That's correct. - Councilmember Briggs. - What it does do is it gives you $ 800,000 of the tree fund, in essence leaving 1.3 million. So I'm a little protective of this fund because the original goal of the committee was to purchase and preserve tree land with the fund. And reforestation is a goal and it's a good thing to do, but it's not the main thing. And I feel like we're getting away from the idea of preservation and we're just using it to plant new tiny trees. And so that's why I asked this item to be pulled today because in the consent agenda there wasn't any specifics on the types, the place, the amounts. It's just an $800,000 credit to parks. And so I had issue with that. I have no issue with the landscape buffer. We know there is a landscape report. There is a plan. We know what trees we're going to use. We know where they're going to use. We know what fund it's coming from. We know we have to have it for an SUP requirement. And I honestly don't know why these two were together as far as an item. I know that it's the contract for the trees, but to me they 're completely separate, in my mind, projects. So I am not in favor of this for those reasons. And a lot of the projects you listed were CIP projects. And in my mind, four years, those may not even be complete or near complete. So I would personally like to see project by project expense through the project so we can evaluate each one rather than just extend a line of credit with this tree fund. Council Member Melton. I'm also glad that the item was pulled, and my inclination is it's a little different, which would be to see a more, rather than just project by project, to see a more comprehensive approach to, which I think is in the offing, a more comprehensive approach to how are we going to identify and address our tree canopy goals. So I think we're moving toward that. But I also want to share an observation. If I'm not mistaken, the tree fund is generated at the rate of, I want to say $149 per tree. Does that sound about right? I think it's generated at the rate of $149 per tree, which is meant to cover the cost of planting a tree and attending to it for a year and just doing quick math, as you know, Gary, as you've laid out sort of different phases, I had numbers from $280 to $400 a tree. So, you know, there's a little bit of a left-hand, right- hand issue here. And I think we'll soon outstrip our resources and not fulfill the mitigation goals that is intended to achieve. So I'll just let that sink in. That's the comment I wanted to make. Council Member Hussman. Yes, I would ask that we, so I'll make my comments, but my ask is that we'll move forward with a vote. And so I'm going to, I have, when it's time to make, I would ask that we have the motion second, then conversation. As I frame the conversation that we're having, the discussion right now, it's about locking in a price for trees for future purposes. And the purpose for the vote tonight is I want to have a clear record such that the price escalates that we know who, why we're paying more per tree, and that we document the missed opportunity to lock in the rate that's been put before us. My other concern is looking at a one-year rate ignores the fact that the rate could go up year two. So even if the one -year rate is lower, it ignores year two's rate climbing at a rate that is disproportionate. And then offsetting any savings we have. So I appreciate the forward thinking. And I would again ask that we, hopefully we can refocus on the fact that this is a pricing agreement with a up to expenditure, but not to exceed, but that does not at all encumber this council to meet that expenditure. I mean all those expenditures are going to come before us. I don't see a way that they don't in some shape or fashion. And so for that, I'm comfortable supporting this because again it locks in a rate that is climbing. And I think the other side of that conversation that's not been touched on is, and maybe someone from staff can touch on it if need be, but the builders, developers that pay into the tree fund to watch it grow and not be utilized is just as difficult to defend to those that are paying in. So there's an expectation and we've grown our tree canopy and that's been documented in our presentations. And then lastly the buffer has been clearly defined a number of times in three, four, five presentations. So I don't understand that need. So maybe that is a quick answer, but the pricing I'm okay with because I believe it to be, I trust staff to say that doing their due diligence, that locks in the rate over four years protects us from inflation and gives us a long-term opportunity to utilize that pricing as needed. So thank you. Councilmember Armator. I have a question for Ethan. Let me go ahead and call for a second on that Councilmember Duff. A second. So question for Ethan. So, so this proposal, the part of the proposal that applies to the buffer around the landfill . Has anything about that change that the plan for the placement of trees around the landfill changed since the last time that came before Council? No, we sent out a staff report. I believe it was two Fridays ago that kind of detailed the design and the plans. And so a quick point of clarification. We have the design and the plans for phase one and phase two, because nothing's going to change there. We do not yet know the design of phase three because that's going to be impacted by the realignment of Mayhill Road. And so essentially our best guess at this stage is we're going to have about 361 trees over those first two phases. And then our goal is to mitigate at least 200 in phase three or additional on-site plannings, just the designs to be determined. Okay. So this, the 406,000 figure includes the estimated cost for the trees that you imagine will be needed for phase three, even though phase three hasn't been planned out yet. Right. Essentially our expenses for phases one and two are outlined here on this slide is about $245,000. The remainder is basically the expenditure authority we have to accomplish the remainder of that tree mitigation. We may not expend all of that, but as was stated earlier, it's locking in a price that we have a contract available to us whenever we get there. Okay. And is there a, about phase three, is there a debate about where the placement of the trees should be? No, it's not about that, just about design details. We just don't, we don't have the final design for the May hill Realignment yet. Got it. That's going to, it's going to be contingent on that. Okay. Thank you. Gary, just a quick question on this, because this is, you know, as we said, we've identified some possible project, but we haven't, I actually said, oh, this is how much we're going to spend on each one of these. As these CIP projects come forward, we'll be able to at that point relook at them . And I would think that since this is a contract to purchase trees, if there's a CIP project that the tree, the cost of the tree is supposed to come out of the project, this is just identifying, as we have to, a fund that could pay for these as we purchase them, but it's not necessarily what will be. Right. So example, during our planning efforts, we anticipated half the plant trees on Mayhill, but that's being, those trees are being planted out of a capital project. So we can actually deduct that from that project. That either is a reduction in what we would anticipate spending or it frees up fund, you know, opportunity for trees to be planted elsewhere. So there is more than one revenue source to offset the cost of the tree, whether it's capital projects or grants, and we're going to be aggressive going after green ribbon grants whenever we can with, with TxTOT. One thing to add, it's, it's, while it's a four year contract, it's a one year contract with renewal years. So we can back out of the agreement. So we're not locked into keeping it for four years. And that's, you know, just, just a thought. Okay. Thank you . Councilmember Melzer. Gary, is there, the way it's structured, is it possible, would it be possible for us to move forward tonight on one part and not the other, for instance, the solid waste landfill buffer zone, you know, without having resolved, you know, the total amount. Is that, or is there nature of the deal, such that you can 't divide it. It's a, it was a bid on both those projects. The reason that they were combined was from an economy of scale perspective. We're doing this even with all of our CIP projects where we're trying to get larger road segments put together, larger drainage segments to get put together. So we get more attractive pricing. I think the approach that we'd probably recommend, given what we're hearing tonight, is we do have a workshop scheduled in November on the tree fund and the tree policy. We certainly approve this tonight and then just put the brakes on anything other than the solid waste spending until you have those debates, and we can work on a essentially a five year tree CIP. And, you know, that would follow that identifying funding levels more are more are concerned isn't so much spending the money right now is getting the prices locked. You know, so we have no problem just holding off on any of these projects until we have that we have the discussion with council we understand that there's there's issues out there but the bids go together and you separate the bed you fundamentally changed the terms of the RFP. So, would that, would that be acceptable as a friendly amendment to, you know, approve the, the item, but with instruction, not to move forward on with instruction only to move forward immediately on solid waste landfill buffers buffer zone until further review comprehensive approach to trees with council. Yes, because I don't, I don't see it any different right I don't there's no plans to execute the spending today that what he what he captured yes for an answer. And, and I started with yes. It's yes but it's no different. We're saying walk in the prices, that's what he just said, and that's what I see it, it's no different. I think that's still a yes. Councilmember Duffey accept the amendment as well. Okay. Councilmember Bruce. So I appreciate that amendment and the conversation we're going to have going forward with a tree fund. I would just like to have a process question answered because it is a certain amount. And in this ordinance comes from that tree fund. How does that work. My, my ultimate goal or dream would have been to see projects listed right now. This is what we will use from the tree fund this is what we will use from other funds, because parks has several different funds that it could use. And so maybe not 800,000 from tree fund that could be down to like 500,000 instead of saying, Well, we may or may not use it all we don't have to. I would really like to see more precise figures. I mean, especially when we're talking about the tree fund because if something were to come to us, some land or a preservation option, we wouldn't know exactly how much we had to work with, because of, you know, what's been approved or what may or may not be approved. That's where I'm coming from. It's a pay as you take approach on the contract. So I think from from our perspective, once we get have the feedback from the work session present you with the CIP, if we want to change funding sources that the contractor isn't going to care what fund they're paid out of. I'm more concerned that you're comfortable with the budget that we're approving and the strategy. I think we can get you there in November. If not, we'll be back in December to finalize it. It's a it's a these are terms we can live with pretty easily and we can work through the policy issues that you 're bringing up. So what you're saying is, I'm sorry, man. So what you're saying is there's not if this passes, even with with the amendment when we're not going to move forward on any trees until that. So a withdrawal from the tree fund for 800,000 is not going to be taken out and moved over to some other fund is what you're saying. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying we're going to build we're going to build a CIP for trees for you . And you can have the debate on how much of the tree fund kicks in general fund or other funds, but we will move forward on the solid waste base because I think that's a promise we need to keep. I completely agree with that. Yeah. I mean, and the slide before shows that we are spending the tree fund we are using last year. We spent more than we actually made. So we are applying that. And I don't think the developers need to worry. I mean, the money will be spent and we will get trees. So yeah, you've asked us for an update and the council's asked us for an update of the tree fund policy and said we are more than happy to work you through that work with you to put that in place. And a month or two of planning isn't going to derail us. Okay. Thank you. And thanks for the friendly amendment. Councilmember armator. Yeah, so I wanted to say that that assurance that you just gave just now makes a big difference to me can combine with a friendly amendment. You know, my big concern was seeing the idea of $800,000 going from the tree fund to parks. I have no problem with locking in a good price and knowing that this will contract will come up for renewal every year. And I just had one more question about that. And that is when the contract gets renewed every year, comes up for renewal every year, what does that renewal come before council automatically? If not, I would like that to come before council. Typically you would be authorizing the amount up to $1.2 million. We would be back to you if we needed to exceed the authority or if there was an issue with the contract and look up to Lori to see if I misstated anything. Okay. So it would not just routinely come up? Right. Yeah, typically what you're doing is you'll be providing a not to exceed amount for the dollar amount that's locked in on the per tree replacement price. What I'm telling you is that outside of the solid waste expenditure, we'll be back to you with a proposed CIP before we spend anything on that tree fund on this contract . And if we end up ultimately reducing it a few hundred thousand using other funding sources, we can have that discussion in November. Okay, thank you. We have a motion and a second to consider adoption of an ordinance authorizing city manager executed contract for supplies and installation of trees in the amount of 406,000 for solid waste landscape buffer, and in the amount of 800, 000 for the parks department with further direction from council on how that is spent at a later date. Any further discussion. Councilmember, I did have one more question for Ethan, regarding the solid waste. Sorry. You did mention it's in phases inside a question about why there's only 50% of the trees required that that we're getting that are required by the SDP is that because of the different phases. Yes, I mean it's really comes down to a space restriction there's infrastructure, there's going to be an overhead electric utility lines there there's the buffer zone wall and so this is really the first two phases are existing buffer zone phase three is going to be coming when mayhem and is actually completed. And then the, what we hope is that they both phase three and additional onsite plannings gets us to the 560 trees that we lost that's our goal. Thank you. Any further discussion. All right, and the motion is to consider adoption of an ordinance for the authorizing the city manager to execute a contract for supplies and installation of trees in the amount of $406,000 for solid waste landfill buffer zone. And in the amount of 800,000 for the parks department with the friendly amendment that that would come back before council as to what those specific projects would be. There's no further discussion, let's vote on the board. And the motion carries six to zero. Okay, we're going to move on to items for individual consideration. First item five, a conduct the first two readings of an ordinance the city of Denton for voluntary annexation of approximately 86.47 acres of land generally located between Creekdale drive and Hickory Creek road east of the railroad tracks. The city of it. And then we're going to move on to item six, the city of Denton for voluntary development services. You may recall we, we reviewed this item about a month ago, it was we had the second second public hearing on this item , we're now sort of in the in the second stage of the annex ation, which is the reading of the first annexation ordinance the first the second public hearing where requirements Texas local government code. And then our, our, the city's charter requires two different readings of that ordinance and that 's sort of the stage that we're in now. And so with that I'll go ahead and read the read the title in order to the city of Denton Texas voluntarily annexing approximately 86.47 acres of land, generally located between Creekdale drive and Hickory Creek road east of the railroad tracks more specifically described in exhibit a and illustrated in exhibit B, providing for correction to the city map to include the annex lands providing for savings clause and an effective date without we have to answer any questions. Any questions. This is just the first of two readings we didn't need to take any action on this, this evening so see no questions. Thank you, Richard. Move on to item B consider adoption of an ordinance the city of Denton authorizing city manager to sign and submit substantial agreement of the 2018 action plan for housing and community development. Good evening. Members of the council. This ordinance will support the submission of an amendment to the city's 2018 action plan for housing and community development. When we approved when Council approved the action plan in June, there was $217,923 that were unprogrammed in that document. So as soon as that that was submitted to the Department of Housing and Urban Development in June, which is the required time period 45 days before the end of our program year. After that was submitted staff went ahead and advertised and put the word out that this amount of funding was available. We took applications the Community Development Advisory Committee review the applications and held meetings, where the entities that had submitted the applications explained their funding request as a matter of fact, we have some representatives of the Denton community food room here tonight. The committee made the recommendations that you see here the Community Food Center 100,000 for purchase and installation of a commercial cooler freezer at the facility . Quaker town playground also another 100,000 and that is for replacement of an older playground for two to five year olds in Quaker town and the health services of North Texas facility improvements $17,923 network infrastructure and a security system will be installed at the Mesa Drive facility. So, I'll be happy to answer any questions. This will be submitted. If approved, it will be submitted to the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and those funds will be available. Very quickly. Any questions. Councilmember breaks. Councilmember armator. We have a motion in a second. Any further discussion. Motion in a second to consider adoption of an ordinance, the city of didn't submit a substantial amendment to the 2018 action plan for housing and community development. Please vote on the board. The motion carries six to zero. Move on to item C, consider adoption of an ordinance the city of Denton to declare intent to reimburse capital program expenditures of general government in the amount of 23 million $770,000. City Council Tony went to director finance, just going to have a quick presentation here for you. I'm going to turn this item. This item is a requirement by federal law, city is required to formally document its intent to reimburse itself with tax exempt bonds so this is not for a bond sale. However, the, the additional item that you'd be authorizing if this is approved tonight is for us to go ahead and move forward with these projects to begin to spend money and enc umber money in many cases will be simply to to award a contract and cover the funds, and then move forward with those projects so just want to make that very clear here for you. So, we've had a couple of changes with the 1819 CIP. These are the street projects I do want to point out that we have reduced the amount for street reconstruction by four and a half million dollars. That was primarily done to to advance a project which was the Bonnie Bray University to Windsor. We increased that by four and a half million dollars. So, that's phase six of the Bonnie Bray project. I will point out that with the CEO sale that you authorized through the, through the budget process that we sold and received on September 28, we currently estimate that we have about $23 million on hand that's still unencumbered. So, along with this 3.2 million will carry us through at least October of next year, at which time we'll be able to do another reimbursement ordinance and keep the projects going certainly if you have any questions, our city engineer staff is here. In addition, the other projects that we'd like to move forward with is the real quiet zones and McKinney and Pra irie. For Dell extension projects, as we've talked to you before, only the design component will be completed with this 4.9 million, a little bit over $2 million will be shifted to the Hickory Creek West project, and the remaining 1.6 million would also be now going to reallocate to street reconstruction. That's all part of the 23 million that I just provided to you that would be the amount that we would have in funding for street reconstruction. There'll be additional 500,000 for miscellaneous roadway projects as those opportunities come up. In many cases, they may be grant matches. The next set of projects is the drainage projects and again I just want to just a reminder, all of these projects were projects included in the 2014 bond program, $705,000 for the Southville drainage system. And then the next set of projects is for parks. We have moved some of this money around as well to advance some of these projects primarily the playground replacements. We're currently the only plan to utilize about $165,000 currently for a parks master plan. And of course the larger park project will be the tennis center remodel and expansion off of the Hinkle Street. The total that we're asking in geo authorization or approval to move forward is $19.37 million. In addition to that, we're also asking you to approve us to move forward with $2.9 million in vehicle replacements. After that, the council did authorize $600,000 to come from the general fund to cash fund police vehicles. And then finally $1.5 million for various facility maintenance projects, HVC roofing and flooring across various city facilities. Just quickly for you on next step is certainly the council approved this item in February. We are planning to discuss this further with the bond oversight committee. As a matter of fact, we also have a meeting with them later in November , in which we will also brief them. And then in March, we'll have a discussion with the audit finance committee about the geo and CEO bond sale. April 2019 will come back to the council with a notice of intent to actually issue CEOs. And then in May, the council will consider an ordinance authorizing us to sell the bonds. The bond sale is projected currently be in May with delivery of those proceeds in June of 2019. Again, if the council approve these proves decided tonight, many of those funds will simply come back to reimburse the city for any expenses that have already been made. That concludes my presentation be happy to answer any questions that you may have. Councilmember breaks. Thank you for the presentation. So, Mr. City Manager my recollection and I could be missing something was that the Ruedell discussion we had a few times when we were going to and then there was the service center and then we, the last time we discussed it, I remember their mayor saying we may not even need to do this . Is that, and now we're going to do 4 million in a design and we may or may not do it, or is there consensus. If you can just remind me where we are in that process, because I, I recall thinking personally what we don't really need to do this right now. 900,000 earlier that 900 that 4.9 million that will go into the design and reconfiguration, or at least the plan so that we can study the area figure out what mingo Ruedell the entire quarter really needs to look like the other 4 million, as Mr. Dante said, we'll go to other projects that need the money now. Okay. Okay, so thank you. Thank you for that clarification and, and is there any way with some of that money. We could talk about the pedestrian access along is that part of that project. Yes, we're doing a thorough corridor analysis of mingo and Ruedell to make sure that what we actually do recommend the council to put in the ground is along the lines of that complete streets nature, which should be looking at the pedestrian the bicycles as well as vehicles. That's great. Thank you. I have a couple more. Under the parks. So there's the master plan I agree that we need. There's parkland acquisition, I just had a question about that and what that is and then it says tennis center remodel and expansion, and we just had a presentation not too long ago on a brand new tennis center project. Is this separate from that, or is this the renovation of our old one. If you could just clarify what that is. Laura Barons assistant director for parks and recreation on the tennis center know this is the same project. Same project that we've done some preliminary had some preliminary discussions on and have held some public meetings on as well. Okay, so it's the brand new facility. The way it was labeled remodel and expansion seemed to me to be at the old location so I was know the remodel portion is actually the building that's there on the corner it's formerly known as the old YMCA, the old KDB building parks actually currently uses that now for some use programming, but it will be remodeled as now the, the pro shop slash office space for the tennis center, and that 's the remodel portion. And I recall during that conversation, there was some discussion about the amount of courts. And is that will that come back to counsel once this for final design and cost and. Yes it will. Okay. Yes. All right. Thank you very much. The parkland acquisition if you could expand on that just a little bit. So when the bond package was originally proposed it was almost a placeholder for potential land. And at this point we are wanting to bring go through the master plan process before we're able to really identify where the next, you know, park land should be. So the master plan needs to come first, and then that will give us a better idea and certainly clear direction on where the next potential parks should should be located. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Sir. Yeah, I just want to sort of restate what I think I've heard. Just so that you know others can kind of follow along to my correct and saying, we're not talking when we talk about remove money from this to that removed money from street reconstruction to Bonnie brave from University to Windsor. We're just talking about timing and talking about which things we're going to work on between now and may said, said essentially correct. That's correct. It's just a change in timing. Great. Thanks. Councilmember hospice. Councilmember breaks. With all the new information that I received. Any further discussion. 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The green lines to the outside are where FEMA shows the mapped floodplain to be, and the blue lines are where we're bringing the floodplain into with our clomer and improvements. The green area is the floodplain ESA, which is all the area that was covered by FEMA floodplain, which we're adjusting in accordance with city and FEMA requirements. The blue area above is the developed floodplain. So it's still FEMA floodplain, but it's been determined to be previously developed. One thing I'd like to mention here is that this area we could, for the code, concrete, but we have chosen to keep it earthen. The drainage department might prefer it concrete. It's a little easier and cheaper to maintain, but we've decided to make it more like the rest of the channel in part of our efforts to deal with the ESA. That kind of shows everything together, so you see how they relate to each other. That's what we're proposing, with the gray area being what 's removed. These are typically very shallow areas of floodplains. It spreads very wide. If you can imagine, the pink area is 100 feet wide, and we're showing, well, I don't know if we showed on this slide, but 400 or 500 feet width of floodplain, but those outer edges of the floodplain are anywhere from one or two inches deep to six or eight or maybe a foot deep, so it's very easy to recover and maintain your flows in the primary channel, which is where your floodway is. That kind of shows some of the widths, 183, 474, and that's what we're pulling in in order to develop this area. Neighborhood concerns, the biggest question we had, are we doing apartments or condominiums? Well, no, it's single-family only. I don't know how that rumor got started, but it seems to come up a lot around here. Traffic, corner lot in Meadowlands and Belmont, we're concerned. We're going through the Master Thoroughfare Plan. We're coming in with a lower density. All the streets are in accordance with the city's plans and street extensions. Drainage concerns, the DIN development code or FEMA, the downstream area opens up. We've made sure through these analyses that we're not causing water to back up on the property upstream from us or to increase on that below us, and that's demonstrated in the models that were reviewed thoroughly by the city and then forwarded to FEMA and have recently been approved through the conditional letter of map revision process. Tree preservation plan, particularly along the north and east, we are exceeding the requirements for tree preservation. The developer is actually importing 80,000 cubic yards of fill in order to minimize the amount of trees that might be affected. Staff kind of laughed at me because when they first gave me this number, I said, "You've got to regrade that. He'll never bring in that kind of dirt." Sure enough, he is, so I was surprised at that. He's making a special effort to try and save those. He's bringing in a type of a product where the trees are more valuable to it, and he's doing what he can. We're going with a lower density, larger lots, and the 10,000 square foot size on the west end next to Country Club Road up to a larger lot of 24,000. We're having an average of 15,000 square feet per lot, so again, we're in that, in our 2.1 type density range. It's a continuation of the surrounding neighborhoods from the north and the east to transition into what you find across the street on Country Club Road to the west. To the south is a gas well situation and not likely to be developed in upcoming years. We will be removing the invasive species, as Deborah mentioned. We're going to re-vegetate with native flora, not with common Bermuda. The earth and channel in the developed floodplain is one of our provisions, and we're going to re-vegetate the developed floodplain also with native flora as well. We believe it's a high quality development, meet the intent of the standards of the development code, and I don't know why I keep looking up there. It's right here, and it's going to improve the drainage area in terms of channel stability and minimizing existing high water impacts on the neighboring communities. No adverse impacts upstream or downstream, as I mentioned earlier. That's the indication of the plat with all the streets on it, Phase 1 and Phase 2, and as Richard mentioned earlier, Phase 2. We would do it all in one phase, but the uncertainties of Country Club Road and the right-of-way tacking and how it will affect the lot configuration and layout on the west side of the creek is still to be determined. That's Phase 1, what we're going to do with the final plat. The light blue area shows where we're going to have a temporary road to come out to Country Club Road, so we'll have two ways of access, particularly for emergency vehicles into this area. We'll also at risk take a sewer line down that kind of L- shaped easement south of there in hopes that that's where we end up putting it. When text dot comes through, there's a chance we may have to relocate it. There's the tree mitigation plan with the green trees being preserved, some of the red trees coming out. There's also a large number of trees along the north property line and the east property line that are being preserved as well that aren't shown on this particular drawing. These are the much larger trees. And I'll respond to any questions at this time or wait until later. I know it's a public hearing, so I'm not sure if this is the right time. - Okay, Council Member Brooks. - Hi, Mr. Anderson. So just, I have a few questions and a comment, but just go back to the tree, to the one last slide. So my initial thought is, since it's in phases, are you going to go ahead and clear all the property at once, or will you just do phase one and then just in case phase two changes, you'll have some extra trees to maybe deal with? - The, let's talk east of the stream first and down the middle of the stream. That will essentially happen immediately with phase one. If we go to the left of the stream, you see the two cul-de- sacs and the eight trees around them. Those will be worked with in phase one, because part of phase one is building up that area to close in the channel. But the red trees to the far west, to the far left, those are existing homes and they're going to stay there until text-dot comes through, so those will not be touched at this time. - Okay. All right. And so it's good to see that the trees are going to stay in the middle, in the ESA. I'm appreciative of the earth and channel, and I appreciate that you're sensitive to the natural conditions around in the development and that there's just 73 lots. And I have a question, because in the P&Z meeting, the Neighborhood Association, I forget what his name was, came in, their main concerns were drainage. I think you had a slide on that, that it would be addressed . But can you kind of expand a little bit more on that? - In this blue area up here, the neighborhood was concerned with this culverts at this point, that this was caused by backwater that would cause water to back up into their development. We've demonstrated that that does not occur. These are four 10 by 5 culverts. It looks small on here, but when he learned that those were 40 feet wide altogether and was comparable in size to the culverts they have under Royal Lane just above that, they seem to be satisfied with the meeting. - Okay. So on your report, I did read it that you mentioned you were concerned with the fill requirements, that you didn't think it was, let's see, it was not reasonable, the requirement of it. And so is the developer going above and beyond what was in your report? Is that what you were saying with the... - Well, we were discussing as far as fill requirements, whenever you're recovering floodplain, the code allows such a small amount of fill, you might get two parking spaces out of it. And that's not a good amount to effectively recover the area. Now, another requirement the code has is we cannot reduce the storage capacity or the carrying capacity of the stream by more than 15%. And we did stay within that limitation on reduction. It's just that the code is so onerous in the limitation on how much fill you can bring in into a developed floodplain that it's not even worth doing it normally. So that's why we asked for that variance in here that we can bring it in. - Bring in more to do that? Well, thank you for that. I think that is all the questions that I had for you. Thanks. - Council Member Arnott. - So I had a question for Deborah Viera. But I'll wait and see if I noticed that nobody else had, if anybody else has questions for the developer. - Okay. - Yes, ma'am. - Hi. So I'm concerned about the floodplain issue. So as I understand it from the report, that there will be, that FEMA approval is required once it gets to the final planning. - Correct. - Stage. And what is there, what's your sense of kind of FEMA's precedent in approving shrinking existing floodplains? - It is common. Many of the floodplain that we have within the city limits, they're either unstudied. And so far, the FEMA maps are just approximation of what they think those floodplain maps or those floodplains are. Therefore, when developers come forward with better data, with better computer modeling, they can actually show that shrinking the floodplains are viable options. The FEMA requires the application to go through the city review. So in that way, the application will not only comply with the FEMA requirements, but also will meet our city drainage standards. And at this point that has happened, we already reviewed the clomer, was submitted to FEMA, and FEMA have issued an approval letter for the conditional letter of map revision. The next step to go is actually doing the reclamation work, bringing the field, doing the excavation. The third step will be sending back evidence to FEMA to show that the work that has been done meets what was approved by the clomer. And at that point, FEMA will issue a letter of map revision of LOMAR, which actually officially changes the configuration of the floodplain. So a reclamation of floodplain is a common activity within the city limits, and it is a process that is better not only through the FEMA, but also through the city drainage engineer. Thank you. On the one hand, it's reassuring for me to know that FEMA has conditionally approved. At the same time, I see in flooding situations we've had elsewhere in Texas over the years where there was legal development on floodpl ains that presumably had to have gotten FEMA approval at some point, and there were some really bad development situations. There's now a state of emergency in 18 counties for flooding going on, and so I was wondering if you could speak to what, from a planning perspective, is there talk in your field of concerns about overdevelopment on floodplains in Texas specifically? One of the city requirements is to actually, when they do the computer modeling for the floodplain, they have to assume the highest development upstream and downstream of it and model those conditions to determine where the flood plain is going to be and prove that what they're proposing will not affect upstream and downstream. In that regards, we are assuming what is the highest density possible within that watershed and then model it accordingly. That modeling is done by the applicant? Correct. Is there any independent, and there's no independent modeling done? The computer model is done by the applicant and is submitted to us for review. Our drainage engineer go through it, make sure that all the premises that they're using on the computer model complies with it, and also after that is sent to FEMA. So pretty much they go through two review process beside the computer model that is done by the applicant. Thank you. Councilmember Brinks? My question was for Deb as well. Is this the first alternative ESA that has come to council or to you since our update that we've made to the code? That's correct. This is the first one. The application was submitted in 2016 prior to the old version of subchapter 17. Therefore, we follow what the regulations were at the time the application was submitted. Okay. Thank you. That was the only blue card I have, but this is a public hearing. So anyone else wishing to speak may come down and state your name and address. Is there anyone else wishing to speak on this item? Seeing no movement, I will close the public hearing. Councilmember Brinks? So I will make a motion to approve. I'm not surprised. I usually do not approve the alternative ESAs, but I feel like you've taken great care here to preserve and protect what we have. But I will like to move to approve with the four conditions that staff and P&Z implemented. Thank you. We have a motion. I have a second. Anyone wishing to second? Councilmember Hespeth? Second. All right. Any further discussion? We have a motion and a second to consider, hold a public hearing, consider adoption of an ordinance related to requests for an alternate ESA plan for Country Club Road Estates on 35.52 acres with the conditions listed from P&Z and staff. Let's vote on the board. And the motion carries four to two. We've been gone for almost two hours. We'll take a short break and be back in about five minutes. Welcome back. We took a short break. It is now 833 and we will continue on with our public hearings section. The next item up, item B, hold a public hearing, consider adoption of an ordinance to rezone approximately 13.4 acres from neighborhood residential two district to a neighborhood residential four district. Subject property is located on the south side of Audre Lane , 90 feet west of Barbara Street. And I'm going to go ahead and open the public hearing at the beginning this time, so I'll make sure I don't forget. Richard Canone, Development Services. As was mentioned, this is just a map of that subject site. You may recall to the west where you see the orange, the NR 6, there were a couple of rezonings recently that went through with overlay restrictions with respect to the density and the type of use. What they're proposing is to change the current zoning from NR2 to NR4. And so in reviewing that, there's two criteria for approval . One, does it conform to the land to feature land use plan? And number two is, would there be adequate provisions of transportation water source, schools, parks, and public services if the request is granted? Looking at the first, this has a designation of low residential, which permits a maximum density of four dwelling units per acre, which the NR4 is appropriate. So it is consistent with number one. Looking at the zoning compatibility of the area, as you can see, it's sort of wed ged between NR6 and then NR4 surrounds the majority of the property. There are some NR2 to the east and west, but primarily, as you can see, the area is NR4. There is one sort of restriction or allowance, I guess you can say, is within the NR4 district, and we don't see this too often, it does permit duplexes. However, they cannot abut a perimeter of a subdivision. So in order to have that, it would need to be internal. And then each unit would need to be on a separate lot, meaning it would be designed to be sold individually. Now that wouldn't restrict anyone from renting it, but it would be set up in a manner that they would be on individual lots . And then they would need to comply with subchapter 13 and look like a single family residence from the street. And so that is limitation L3 within the DDC. Public facilities, access does come from Audre Lane and then Oak Valley to the south. There is water and there is sewer available. See the lines around the site. This was their initial request. This is just a concept plan. While we looked at it , it didn't bear much into our analysis. Again, this wasn't a review criteria, but they did present that. You can see where the duplexes were initially set up within this area. The way this was initially being conceived, there would be alleys, so it wouldn't abut the perimeter of the property. However, on Friday we did receive an updated concept plan that they're contemplating now, actually removing the du plexes and proposing 40 single family units at a density of 2.97. And so when I initially saw this, we talked about whether or not it should still be NR4 or NR3, which permits a density of 3.5 units per acre. But there are some challenges with the site, and by changing it from NR4 to NR3, it affects the lot coverage. It goes from 60% down to 50. And where the issue is primarily, what they're looking at is approximately 5.3 acres of open space. This area here is an easement for a natural gas line that runs through the stretch of that property. In addition, if you see the line here, there is a 54-foot wide electric easement that sort of restricts it. So there are some great challenges with the site. The applicant in reviewing this, just a cursory review, I did reach out to him because we had some initial concerns right away when we saw that the majority of the lots were approximately 40-footed width. And just knowing that this would only lend to a one-car garage, and then also with issues related to having to provide four parking spaces on site with the prohibition of tandem in the garage, you would greatly affect the front of the property if it were to be front loaded with garages. It would essentially look like a sea of pavement, which would ultimately affect the lot coverage, given that particularly back here where you're limited to 54 feet, depending where those lines ultimately are, it probably stretches a little bit further. So that leaves you an area of about 30, I think 30 by 71 for a pad, which is not that much. I'll let them discuss further on their concept plan, but they were just looking at this just as an exercise to see the maximum. What I'm told is he understood that they would still need to comply and that the 40-foot lots were probably not doable. They were just doing this as an exercise. Again, we're looking at whether or not the zoning R4 is consistent with the area which it would be. There was public notification that was sent out. There were 73 within the 200-foot radius and then 218 within the 500-foot radius. Of the responses that we've received to date, we've had 14 in opposition, which represents 13 percent, as you can see those areas in red. This does not hit that 20 percent mark where it would require a super majority. There were three in favor, which represents 2 percent, and the applicant did have a neighborhood meeting on September 4th. A lot of the opposition initially was as part of their neighborhood meeting. They discussed that concept plan, and I know there were a lot of concerns with the duplexes in the area. However, P&Z did review this and recommended approval 6-0, and staff also recommends approval as it's consistent with the review criteria. With that, I'd be happy to answer any questions. Councilmember Amator? I really like the new plan much better than the old plan. The new plan without the duplexes. I was not able to attend that meeting, but I do remember hearing that the duplexes were a major concern. Kudos for the developer. I know you want to get your project done, but you also want to be liked by the neighborhood in which you're building. I think that shows a great willingness to amend the plan. This makes it much more compatible to me. I was concerned primarily because of the residents' concern about the duplexes. I'm much happier now. I had a question for you, and I think the answer is yes, but I just want to check. Is it possible to have some sort of zoning overlay that would ensure that, say, in the future, some future developer, say this changes hands or whatever, that these not be turned into duplexes? Can this specific area be a duplex-free zone? How would that work? Yes, and Erin could probably confirm. Because it's the NR district, there is the allowance for an overlay with those restrictions, which could prohibit any duplexes within the subdivision. That is correct. Thanks. I would definitely like that. Councilmember Briggs. Can you go back to the aerial map? I'm just wondering, can you point to all the duplexes that are right around there? I don't think they're on this. I know there's some to the south as well as to the north. But they're further out from the core of the neighborhood. Okay, and so what I think I heard you say was that you just saw the new concept plan with the single family, and that there's really too much density for the 40 single family homes that they proposed when we're talking about lot coverage. Is that what I heard you say? Yeah, it's not so much the density, it was the lot width of 40 feet. Again, we have this weird provision in the code. If you're greater than two acres, you don't have to comply with those minimum lot standards. It bumps you to just by density. And so they're well under the four units per acre. But in order to go down in zoning district, given the challenges of the site, it would really put them at a disadvantage or maybe even a product that wouldn't be really usable. Okay. Well, I look forward to hearing what they have to say on that, because I too would really like to have a single family overlay. But I'm wondering if 40 was their number to make the project work or if that was just an idea. So I look forward to hearing what they have to say. Thank you. Council Member Husspeth. Yeah. Richard, thank you. So thank you for the presentation. And the question is, can you -- because I've heard Mayor Watts speak to it before, about lot widths, that sort of thing. And I know it's a concern. Can you just walk me through that generally? And so just your kind of dissertation on here's traditionally what happens, here's why, here's the aesthetics of that. Just kind of educate me or reorient me on the targets and why they exist. Certainly. One of the provisions or sort of design requirements in the code is the garage door can't exceed 40% of the width of the structure. And so anything less than a 50-foot wide lot would only permit a one-car garage. And so that was, if you remember, back in January where we started to have that discussion on the parking standards. And so when we increased it for single family, while we didn't dictate that they must be in a two-car garage, we had to have a two-car garage. And so that was a provision that would restrict it from having tandem within a one-car garage being counted. It almost forces you to have a two-car garage, really. But with this site, it would be challenging, especially on a 40-foot wide lot. Because then with a five-foot setback, you're at 30 feet. And 40% of that, you're looking at a 12-foot wide garage door. And you still have to provide space for three additional cars on site. So if you're looking at a parking pad of 18 by 18 for two, plus another nine by 18, it's a lot of pavement in front of the house on a lot that 's only 30 foot in width. Thank you. And so that is a separate issue from -- so when does that conversation happen? That really comes in after the zoning's approved. And when they get into the platting process, when they would submit for preliminary plat, that's when that discussion would really take place. But as looking at it, it's one of those, I don't want them to come forward and not raise those issues ahead of time. So they're aware of it. And in conclusion, I share your same concern. So I just want to send notice that, yes, that's going to be -- one, it will be a point of contention for Mayor Watts, assuming that's just my projection based on previous conversations. Not certain, but -- so I assume that conversation's coming. I would share those concerns. And I would echo the sentiments of the other council members that I would like something stipulated that ties to the NR4 that would require single family. But just like you said, I want to get out in front of that conversation so that if there's changes that need to happen , there's plenty of fair warning that the width at 30 or 40, wherever, is not -- is problematic for me. Just because we have to be consistent with not only the neighborhood, but other developments. -That other -- yeah, correct. -Yeah. Thank you. -Councilmember Briggs. -Speaking of other developments, I seem to recall we approved one not too long ago over here with smaller homes and lots. Can you -- was it NR4? -It was actually NR6. -NR6, okay. -But that was a result of the density going a little bit over four units where the four units wouldn't work, which was the only reason. Staff had recommended the overlay one because the density was just sort of out of line with the surrounding area. But then it also introduced duplexes by right, where NR4 kind of self-contains it interior to the subdivision. That really wouldn't be conducive within those areas, the NR4. At least it doesn't look like just because of the street network that would need to be laid out. But here it's sort of a different animal with the pipeline that runs through there. -With the way that it is. -On the map, it looks like Oak Valley. Would Oak Valley continue into the development? So you would have Oak Valley as an exit or enter and also Audra? Would those be your -- -Correct. There would actually be three points. So you have Audra, you have Oak Valley to the south. And while this is sort of an unnamed street, they are coordinating with that development to the west so that those roads would align and ultimately connect over to the other subdivision once that one moves forward. -Okay. Thank you. [laughter] -All right. I don't see any further questions, so we'll move on. I have one blue card from the applicant, Sean Faulner. If you state your name and address, your time will begin. -Good evening. My name is Sean Faulner. My address is 1999 Bryan Street, Suite 890 in Dallas, Texas. I'm also a resident of here of Denton. I've been here for almost 16 years. I got about a month before I can say 16 officially. I just want to start off with addressing some of your concerns. As far as the duplexes, after the Planning and Zoning Commission meeting, we went back and looked at the market and looked at our cost assessments. We feel that we can do and make the project successful using single family. We have no issue with having an overlay disregarding duplex es, so that's not an issue with us. As far as the lot widths, this exhibit that shows 40-foot wide lots, that was just an exhibit, kind of a max out, we'll see what we can do to figure it out. With the requirements that are in the development codes, particularly with the garage, 40s aren't feasible for a front-entry product. If you even take a minimum two-car garage, you're looking at about a 47, 48-foot wide lot as a minimum. Right now, the market, if you have a single-car garage, you 're not going to sell it. That's just the way it is, the market is right now. Everyone wants a two-car garage. This was just a, "Hey, let's see if we can max out, see what we can get." We're still talking with the pipeline company and Municipal Electric about the easements to finally determine what they need to be. The land plan may change a little bit when we come back from a plot, but this is generally what it will look like. At the end, we'll probably be somewhere between 35 and 40 lots by the end of the day. We'll still be under three units per acre. As Richard mentioned, going to the NR3, that was designed particularly for larger lots. When you look at that with the lot coverage, which includes the house and driveway, that's not going to work for our type of subdivision. We're really strong with that gas pipeline, what we can do with the project. That being said, let me go through this a little bit. We had a neighborhood meeting and some of the concerns that were talked about. There was concerns about parking on the street and the ability to get emergency vehicles through. We're going to be building the streets per the city requirements. Rental property, those are mostly concerned with the duplex lots. We feel that going to single family, you're probably going to have the same rate of rental homes as you would in a normal neighborhood. There are five acres of open space. That was also a concern. There's lots of neighborhoods. Those neighbors have been using this property as recreation space, and we understand that. We're hoping to dedicate this land to the Parks Department for a city park. Other than that, it would probably be a private HOA park. Then a concern, back with the duplex lots, we had some allies that backed up to the open space. Someone asked if we were going to fence off that alley. Of course, that would just close off any kind of views that those residents would have of the park. We didn't want to put that up there, but we took out those alleys, so it's not as a concern currently. Just to go through our four, the houses have to be set back 20 feet from the right of way. The 60% maximum lot coverage, no more than four units to the acre. With our 40 lots, we're right at three units to the acre. Parking goes back to discussions in the garage. There's a city requirement that there's four parking spaces off the street. We'll be providing two-car garages, and of course, we'll have two spaces available in the driveway. We're not requesting any variances from the development code. Site challenges, as Richard mentioned, there's a gas pipeline. This is currently a pipeline that comes, I believe, from around North Dakota. It goes down to the coast. It cuts down by lows, so it transects the whole entire city . It's a currently inactive line. The drainage for our site and also the sites to the west of us that are also developing right now, we have to cross that pipeline with our storm drain facilities. We're coordinating with the city and those developers to see what we can do to cooperate and get that gas line lowered to enable the drainage to be put in, as well as the finishing the construction of Audra on the lower frontage. In the back, there's a municipal electric easement. We're talking to them. At one point in time, they were needing some additional eas ement. In order to put a new line in, we're discussing that with them to see if they still need that. That was a long time ago, so their plans may have changed since then. Then there's also a drain and geesment. There's a storm line that comes from the neighborhood to the south. It cuts up through the property and connects up into Audra. That's another site constraint that we have. Then we have to improve Audra. This is our concept plan that we currently have that Richard had up. If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer any that you have. Council Member Briggs. Could you go back to the picture before with the site? Yes. Down where the homes are already developed, your property line comes down, but it looks like it's kind of in their backyard and there 's a lot of trees, like a natural tree buffer there. Are those trees on your property or is that kind of their backyard or both? We haven't done a topographic survey yet, so I can't tell you right now. When we come back with our plan, we'll have that survey completed at that time and we'll be able to tell that. If the trees are on the property line, we'll do our best to preserve them, because trees obviously help sell lots, but we also want to make sure that they're not a nuisance tree that could fall in a house at some point in time. Right. I know that those homeowners right there probably, I don't know if you've had a ... With that development, probably would be more likely to be in favor if the natural buffer stays in place from experience. Yes, ma'am. No, I agree. Are you okay with the single family overlay restriction? Yes, sir. What about on lot width? Would you be okay with a 48 or 50 foot minimum? Yeah, we would be okay with that. Any other questions? None. Thank you. This is a public hearing, so anyone wishing to speak can come down and state your name and address and your time will begin. Good evening, council members and staff. My name is David Z oltner. I live at 2501 Timber Trail. It is just outside the Novice area, but my home is adjacent to this property. I only got word this afternoon that this concept plan has changed. As of right now, I am 99% a happy camper from what I've heard this evening. What would make me a 100% happy camper is to know that this single family overlay, regardless of who the eventual owner is, and I have every confidence in Mr. Johnson being a man of his word, but we all know property flips, concept plans change, and so whatever we have to do to assure that my neighbors will have single families, I would be very, very pleased to do that. The only other thing I was going to ask or bring up when it was still duplexes is this four off-street places per unit, two in the driveway, two in the garage. One of the things that my neighbors were concerned about was ingress and egress, emergency traffic. One of our requests was that parking be limited to a single side of the street. I know that is probably not the place and the time to do that. I'm not suggesting that be an overlay, but we are concerned about the traffic because rear entry garages do create a special problem. I know that from personal experience where my family members live now, so that's just something that I would like to consider in the future. At any rate, I do appreciate what I've heard tonight, and I 'm extremely glad that we're going to have some single families near East Oaks. Thank you very much. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak? Good evening. My name is Jay Johnson. I'm the builder and the developer. Just to make sure that we're all on the same page. Mr. Johnson, can you give us your address? Sure, I'm sorry. 921 Amber Lane, Oak Point, Texas. We did the Barbara property, and those were basically 50- foot wide lots. That's pretty much what we've settled on. We've looked at duplex. We've looked at rear entry. We've looked at pretty much anything we could do to make this property viable. With all the input from the neighbors and actually the market conditions really moving up, it actually makes it viable to do the front entry with two car garages. One car garages, we wouldn't even consider it. We're okay with an overlay, and that's pretty much all I wanted to say. Thank you. Just a second, Mr. Johnson. Council Member Briggs. Yes. As mentioned, market, what is your price point, the entry point for the homes? Where we are, the house I've got right now on Beverly is under contract for 235, and it's a 1700 square foot house. The lot width is 50, and the depth is about 120, so that's where we are today. Probably a three bedroom? It's a three bedroom, two bath, two car garage. Okay, and just for the record, I am in favor of alleys and rear entries. I'm okay with those. I am too. But some people have issues. When you run the numbers, the alleys cost about the same as the additional lots you get, and I don't know how market able they're going to be with narrower lots, and we can't do both. Yeah. Council Member Housbett. I just wanted to say thank you for your flexibility and attention to the neighborhoods, and I think it's also great to point out that you have a vested interest in the neighborhood. You have family members that live in. I do. We built a house on Barbara Street for my mom. In fact, we named the street after her. Her name is Barbara . My son and daughter, we built two houses over there for them, and they were initially there to kind of keep an eye on her because she's getting dementia, and she's actually moved to the memory care center. But we do have a vested interest, and we'd really like to see that open space become a park, and then we've been talking to some of the other neighborhood associations to what kind of input they want for a neighborhood park. Thank you. You're welcome. Anyone else wishing to speak? This is a public hearing. One last call anyone wishing to speak? Seeing no movement, I will close the public hearing. Council Member Meltzer. I move approval of the ordinance, rezoning this property from NR2 to NR4 with an overlay requiring detached single family homes, specifically excluding duplexes with minimum 50 foot lots. Okay, Council Member Briggs. I will second, but I have a question for legal, because it has been brought up about the overlay going away if the land is sold or for some reason the project doesn't work. Does the overlay stay? Is it with the project or is it with the lot? And how do we assure that, would that just have to come back through us again with a new process and we would do the same thing all over again? No, zoning runs with the land, so the overlay restriction would attach itself to the actual land. And so, if this property is flipped to another builder one, two, three times, this restriction applies to the land. They will be bound by it as well. Okay, thank you for the clarification. I appreciate the open space too. Any other discussion? All right, we have a motion and a second to approve the rez oning of 13.4 acres from NR2 to NR4 with the caveat that it be single family detached only with a minimum lot with a 50 foot. Let's see no other speakers will vote on the board. And the motion carries six to zero. Moving on to item C, hold public hearing and consider adoption of an ordinance for a specific use permit to allow for a drive through use on approximately 1.6 acres of land the properties generally located on the east of Fort Worth Drive and north of interstate I 35 frontage road. And I will go ahead and open the public hearing. And it's all yours. Richard can only development services. The item in front of you tonight is for a specific use permit for a drive through. This is DRT, I'm sorry, DRG zoning which does permit restaurants. However, any any use with a drive through that would be pharmacy restaurant bank does require does require an SUV in this district. 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Given that they are initially considering the play place prototype, I know that this item was in front of you at a property to the north. Which was ultimately denied. The property was denied. They are looking at in the future what may or may not need to happen. If they are reaping the success they anticipate, they may need to adjust the actual walk-in cooler. They may need to adjust the actual walk-in cooler. The parking would have to correlate with that with the DDC as any other requirement. If that prototype does change or if they need to expand a few feet, even 100 feet, that would necessitate to have come back through the process. With that, I will be happy to answer any questions. >> Councilmember Briggs. >> Why was the square feet -- why was that specified at 5, 000? >> That's what's on the site plan that they submitted. >> The approval was with that condition just because it was on the site plan. >> That's what they had submitted. >> That's what they had submitted. When we were specific within this recommendation, they raised the issue that if they have to change out the walk- in cooler, it could tip it over to 5,200 square feet. Whether or not they could have that flexibility within that . >> Would that affect the parking spaces required if it became larger? >> I think that's a good question. If it's slightly higher, it may not just because of where that ratio is. The code, the way it establishes parking for restaurants, it's actually looked at the lesser of. It's based on either the seats or the leaseable area. If you were to have a parking space, it would be a place where you would have more than likely people come and park and stay to eat and play than drive through. I have a few questions, but I think most of them are probably going to be for the applicant. >> Any other questions for staff? Seeing none. I have one blue card. It's from the applicant, Greg Massey. >> Thank you. >> We'll begin. >> Good evening. Greg Massey with red plains professional out of Edmond, Oklahoma, representing McDonald's on this application. Richard has done a great job explaining this. The location is a location that is located in the northwest of the area. McDonald's had a site a mile to the northwest of this location that under very similar circumstances, text out right of way taking, the site was demolished. This site was located as a potential for a rebuild. At this location, obviously that occurs before we've gone for site plan approval because we can't obtain site plan approval without the SUP. So it's kind of a cart before the horse situation. As far as the request for flexibility, the building prototype that was shown on the site plan, again, were required by code to provide square footages when those applications are submitted. So that's where that specific square footage came from, the prototype that was available at that time. They are anticipating building the play place. They also have various sizes in the play place that may expand or pull off square footage on average about five foot in width. So we're not talking about a huge amount of space that's going to have a significant impact on parking. Also, with the double drive-through, they do anticipate a significant increase in the drive-through traffic. Not that walk-in is going to decrease, but it will certainly be more optimal to move traffic in and out to keep parking available for those that want to sit down and eat. Again, we would request that this be approved with the 5% variance or allowance and variance for building square footage, as well as parking to facilitate the building movement up or down. And I would be happy to answer any questions. Councilmember Briggs. Okay, so it's interesting that the two driveway windows, is that new for this location or do you have, did you say you have another location that has the two driveways, drive- throughs? All of the current facilities, if they don't currently have the double drive-through, what they call a side-by-side set up on the order points, are adding those. All of the sites in Denton that do not currently have them will be getting them soon. And all of the new facilities they're doing are adding the side-by-side. Now, at some point in the future, those may go away with the new mobile apps and online ordering and Grubhub and so forth. I'm asking because the only experience I have with McDonald 's drive-through is going on University headed west and the traffic from the drive-through line is backed up on University and it prevents traffic from going through. It occupies one lane. And so I don't know if that has a double drive-through. If not, it needs one. And my question on that is I'm concerned about distance. The distance between the, because I'm looking at your site plan and I'm trying to follow the arrows on where people would enter in the driveway because in the drawing there's like five vehicles sitting in line. I counted 15, maybe 20 at 1240 this week. And so I am I'm just wondering what the distance is and I want to make sure that because it's so important to keep traffic moving on these frontage roads and Fort Worth Drive for sure that there's not going to be any traffic sticking out impeding that movement. Yes, absolutely. And again, the five vehicles shown on there, that's another code requirement where we have to indicate there's room for at least five vehicles stacking, which is essentially 100 feet in length. And that's from the pickup point to the order point and then back from the order point that they want clear, you know, unobstructed parking and those areas. The one thing that you probably couldn't discern on the site plan is that the access from the frontage road coming in. There is actually a curb barrier on the outside lane of that drive through so that any traffic coming in, either from the entrance off of Locust or off the I 35 frontage road will be required to circulate the entire building. So essentially we're going to have an excess of 400 foot of stacking around the building before anything could possibly back up into the frontage road for the vehicles in either line that is correct. That's if everyone placed place right. Yeah. If they follow the rules. Yes. Okay. And I do have one more follow up question because you said this has to go to text. Will text. Get the traffic analysis that that you've already done. Is that is that part of that process? Yes, it is. Yes. Okay. Yes. Thank you. You're welcome. I do have one question because you mentioned the 5% variance is brought up earlier on the square footage and you mentioned 5% variance on square footage and parking. Associated with the building. Okay, so your parking would go if you add 5% up then you'll add 5% more parking. Correct. Okay. And if it's down then we'll reduce it because again, there is pretty much a minimum maximum that we have to hit there. Otherwise, we've got to go to porous paving and things of that type. Any other questions for the applicant. Seeing none. Thank you. Councilmember Briggs. This may be for staff. Actually, a question for staff. Okay. Thank you, sir. Could you put it back on the slide with the requirements? Related to the building. Right. And so I wanted to make sure I have a question for clarification on the landscaping. So if it's the SUP because the landscaping is part of it, if something were to happen to some of the buffer or the landscaping, you're asking for an allowance for staff to address that? Just to modify what's shown on the plan. It would not reduce what would be required by the DDC. Right. But since it is an SUP, all of these things would be required to be kept up. Correct. For the SUP to stay in place. Absolutely. Right. And so if something were to go wrong with the landscaping, then it would not be consistent with the approval. And they would have to fix that. So what is the process for that? How do we, is somebody driving by, making sure that they're in compliance with that? That's something that we're working through now with zoning enforcement. Making sure, one, that we have a tabulation of all of these , not just SGPs, but also overlay restrictions. So then sort of on the administrative level, we've now tied them within our system so it's tacked onto whatever property. So anytime something comes in, there's sort of that restriction that identifies that. And so as we continue to have these types of conditions, zoning enforcement is in a much better position. One, that there's an attached plan that's associated with it. Okay. Thank you. And if I can just provide a clarification on the parking, depending on how that building could move, again, because there's a requirement either on square footage or on tables, it may vary. So as a result of, the parking may essentially stay the same or it could be reduced. But again, it would be within what's required by the DDC. It wouldn't be anything that staff would just change without or approve without the confines of the DDC. And based on that, is 50 spaces what's required based on their current square footage? So that line could actually be struck from the SUP? And we just allow them a 5% on the building up or down, and then their parking spaces would go according to their square footage? Would that be true? Yes. If you're tying the parking requirements to the 5%, then yes, it'll be, because there's another way, as Richard told you all, that parking can be computed based on number of seats. But in this case, since the applicant's requesting 5%, you can limit the SUP that the new parking calculation will also be dependent on that 5% as well. Council Member Armitage. What is the, do you know, Ken, what the speed limit is on the frontage road and on that side of Fort Worth Drive? I'm looking at a, I brought up a Google Maps aerial view and it says it's green for fast. The other side of the street is a little bit slower on Fort Worth Drive. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that segment of Fort Worth is 35, only because I usually see police out there in the morning with the radar along, I've never gone over it. Along the frontage road, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if there's a posted speed limit. Yeah, I was trying to remember and I know that Fort Worth Drive, that's one of those areas that kind of gets me for. So, yeah, I'm concerned about traffic and I'm pleased to know about the, that it's designed so that the, whatever buildup there is for cars will kind of wrap around. But I'm still concerned about just traffic safety situation as far as kind of people pulling off the, this frontage road and into the drive through. Also, when there are games at UNT, you know, that it tends to, that area tends to get kind of blocked up. But I was wondering if you could just say a little something about on your slide that the analysis slide where you say you've got three bullet points and I understand two of them. I'm just wondering if you could just say a little bit more about the second one. Yeah, so I understand predominantly commercial area, absolutely. It's all commercial there, commercial use is consistent, absolutely. Can you say a little bit more about why, about how this encourages an infill and attractive redevelopment? I feel like infill is one of those concepts that it can be defined in so many, so many different kinds of ways. Sometimes I like it, sometimes I don't. You could say putting, having the green space there is a green space infill, you know. So I was just wondering if you could say a little bit more about that bullet point. Certainly. Within the, if you look at the land use plan there, you have really two categories along 35. You have the community mixed use, which really stretches all the way into closer to the downtown area. This is Eagle here. And so, and then stretches on down. So it's not as intense as the commercial district would be, where you would have a much more intensive commercial type business, even the ability for some light, light industrial or heavy commercial. But what's interesting, this land use does also carry across and on down Fort Worth Drive. And so if you think of it in terms of how this corridor, Fort Worth Drive, really varies, I mean between 35 to the north and to the south, it's quite a change. There are some auto dominant uses primarily to the south, but also to the north. But again, very different because you start to have some higher density apartments in the back. And what's typical along these types of corridors, some fast food restaurants. I know that this bus stop, I don't have specific numbers, at least every time I go by for UNT, there's quite a number of students that get on the UNT bus at that location. So really with community mixed use, it provides for that varying type of business that would be supportive by close proximity to residential. But not necessarily a budding single family. And there's that the arch at Denton looking at an aerial map. Is that an SRO? That I'm not sure. To the back here, I'm not sure if that is or is not. Okay, thank you. All right. Seeing no more questions. This is a public hearing, so anyone else wishing to speak can come down to the mic, state your name and address and your time will begin. Good evening. I'm Chuck Hickson with Westdale Properties in Dallas. I'm the vice president of Westdale. We own the property and we are working, of course, in cooperation and full support with McDonald's on their application and getting the new store built. We're certainly in favor of the ordinance and obviously you need a SUP for the drive through. We would like to voice our opposition to the specific conditions that have been mandated. We consider in a heavy handed way dictated that these specifics be placed upon a building that hasn't even gotten site plan approval, has not gotten a new plat approval, and yet here for a simple special use permit. These very specific requirements are being added, which is quite a surprise and we consider unusual. Just wanted to state our case in that regard. Thank you for your attention. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak? Anyone else wishing to speak? Seeing no movement, I will close the public hearing. Councilmember Husspeth. Thank you briefly. And so, one, I want to thank McDonald's for coming back. I was against the project at the previous location. I think this is ideal for a number of reasons. I just want to touch on a few of those really quick. One, Taco Bueno was there for a period as long as I can remember and the driveway led out right at the corner, which was problematic. So to push that back is outstanding. If someone's making a U-turn on Fort Worth Drive, they still have to go a ways down the road to get into the parking lot. So I think that's great. It benefits the bank, in my opinion, because the increased traffic undoubtedly will come, will benefit the traffic through the bank and that retail location there. So I'm excited about those things. It further increases development along I-35 and the service road. And as a season ticket holder for the football games, I've never seen anyone exit there. You always exit at McCormick or Avenue C, whatever that is, up a few blocks up. So I've never seen any traffic. And this has been a dynamic year. You can go back to the week of Mingeo Green, where they had a stadium full. I never saw traffic get back to that area. So I'm not concerned about the traffic in this particular location. And so really it checks a lot of boxes for me. Near the apartments is a plus. Hopefully it keeps the kids just walking there versus getting on the road, doing some other things. And so I really think for that number of reasons and then some. But I understand the concerns about the staff's recommendations, but I'm going to move approval with the with staff's recommendations and with the 5% variable and with the understanding that parking will meet city code . And I will second I too had many concerns with the last location. I still have some with this one with the with the traffic. But I think hopefully it's being addressed with the with the amount of space you have. And I hope that when you look at your site plan that you really consider, consider that and make sure that that stays, stays the way it is. And so with that, I second. We have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? We have a motion to consider adoption of an ordinance for a specific use permit to allow the drive through on one point six nine acres at Fort Worth Drive and I 35 with the recommendations from staff and PNC. Plus an additional variable of 5% on the square footage square footage of the building and the parking requirements . And with that, let's vote on the board. And motion carries five to one. And that brings us to concluding items. Councilmember Briggs. So I hesitate bringing up any items because I know the list is long and it's a point of contention for staff to add anything. But I do have a few that I really would like to get staff to look at either and I with with action or a staff report. We need to replace streetlights. We have many streetlights out all over town, several on Carol. There's some in other locations and there's no way to know except for at night. And then you have to get a flashlight and go look at the number on the pole. And I recall that in our committee on the environment, there was a presentation. I think we also had one on council about software that we were looking into and the bulbs to put in the lamps or the lights so that if one goes out, it automatically shows up. And staff knows exactly where to go and where to replace a light bulb so that it's it's constant lit and there's not any issue with that. So I would like an update on where we are with that software and and we should really be using that money and spend it on safety. The next is the smoking ordinance. I know that that was a topic for discussion that on our survey, which I did not take. But I would I would really like to discuss the smoking ordinance and regarding E six in particular. There is an epidemic right now among our teen population. And I feel like if we are able to talk about that ordinance , because in the specific ones that address E six that we can address that and get creative on ways to keep the those materials out of the hands of our youth. Also, I would like council to review the initial 1970 agreement between the city and the Housing Authority. It was brought up by Councilmember Begarry when she was here and it just kind of we didn't ever really talk about it. I would like to know more about that and for count for this current council to be filled in on that agreement. And that could be, you know, just a staff report as well initially. But I think that may kind of fold into a larger discussion that we're going to have. And last with the recent article in the paper about the apartments and the issues that renters have. I would really like better for better notification of our inspections, our rental inspections program. We do provide help for those tenants and communication with the landlords. And those units have got to be up to code. And people need to realize that and they need to know that they can reach out to the city. And it may need to go to citizen committee on citizen engagement on ways to get that information out. But I know that was a charge of council when we were talking about rental inspections program. And so I'm not sure what type of notifications have been done since that discussion. But I know it was a request to council to get that information out. Well, it's something to eat Friday. Councilmember Armitage. Thanks. Yeah, I second that about the rental inspections. Two requested staff report and one requested work session. First, I'd like to see a staff report comparing Denton's support of the farmers market to the two cities mentioned by Ms. Oppenheim, Capelle and Farmers Branch and any other cities, nearby cities with farmers markets. I see nearby, let's say just really state of Texas. I mean, I'm fine with just those two, but maybe it would be nice to see a nice range. That would be helpful to see to kind of use that to weigh against and with the what we heard from Ms. Oppenheim to I 'd like to see. And this might take a while, which is fine. So no, no rush on this. But as I had mentioned before earlier this evening, I'd like to see a map of all of where we can visualize the different parts of bond money that have been allocated for to parks. So we can see kind of in circles or whatever, geometric shape, this money applies to this general area. So I know, for instance, the industry, there was talk about the industrial park that could extend all the way to Quaker Town. And then appendices with just the kind of specific ordin ances, maybe summary with the term of those ordinances. That's just something that's been coming up before council a lot. And I would be helpful for me to be able to to be able to visualize it and know more about the terms of those bond packages and other parts of money that have been put aside. Thirdly, and this is a request for a work session sooner rather than than later. I hope I get colleagues here and city council to agree to the time sensitive nature of this. There's a lot of concern in the community. As you all know about this SRO coming on scripture and normal, I followed very closely the previous incarnation of the plan. And I'm aware that this one is different. But the is, you know, the small area plan committee really felt blindsided by the finding out that after they had adjourned for the summer, you know, to find out that this was already agreed upon. I'd like to see if there could be some discussion of the implications of this forthcoming historic district with regards to the plans for the SRO. And I'm fine with this this being lumped in with the as a discussion topic together with council what the work session council member death had requested on kind of redef ining or defining really what is an SRO, how we're going to define SROs in general and what the differences between SRO and multifamily. It might be that these are two separate discussions, but I 'd be fine having them together. And and two more thing things that I would like to be considered in that discussion. A future moratorium considering a possible moratorium on on SROs or zoning overlays for SROs in certain areas. And that is the same moratorium until some of the concerns that have been raised have been addressed and studied by citizens, among others. Also, I'd like people to or staff to look into the possibility of requiring some sort of one to one visitor parking ratio for this SRO. This is something that the gentleman who came before us last time, I believe, mentioned that these will be college students and people are going to have overnight guests and where where are they going to park and what the effect will be on on neighborhoods. Thank you. Can I clarify, I'm not sure I understand the initial request in the SROs scripture normal. I mean, is that that's the example. But you're wanting to I think are you wanting to discuss that in particular because they've they've got approval. They're moving forward. They're in full compliance. So what would be the purpose of a workshop on that for us to be able to discuss the complaints of people in the community and concerns and people in the community. And so I understand that the zoning has been approved. But, you know, outside of zoning, what can be done to address some of these concerns. If the answer is nothing, at least we've had a discussion about it. And we've gotten, you know, community input. I mean, we're in we're still getting community input. And I think that's a good way to do that. Also, a kind of I mean, I'd be really open to discussion of any number of things that would that would come up around this SRO and SROs in general. I mean, I think that's a good way to do that. And I think that's a good way to do that. I think the question is, is this going to be a discussion that's being discussed in the community that's being discussed in the community? And I think that's a good way to do that. And I think that 's a good way to do that. And I think that's a good way to do that. And I think that's a good way to do that. Okay, we're definitely working on the comparison of the the SRO versus multifamily. I want to clarify something, though , because when Manal was here last spring and it was February or March of 17 when that initial came through, she made it very clear publicly, as did the developer. They were moving forward on this project. It was it has been plotted. It had been approved or zoned appropriately. And so I just want to be careful about saying that the neighborhood wasn't informed. I mean, they went through a very extensive public process where the public was informed. The developer and Manal both made it really clear they were moved forward. I think there was some concern and maybe some skepticism whether the project could move forward. But in fact, I know there was. But, you know, I just want to be a little careful here that the public was informed. That was a that was an extensive public input process. And you're absolutely right about that. And the council turned it down as a result. And in fact, I was there. I was present for for those discussions. I don't mean to say the public wasn't informed , but specifically the small area plan committee that a number of people wanted to be on that committee because they're concerned about preserving the character of that neighborhood. So they were hoping that this would come before them. And again, they're not the zoning committee, right? So separate from zoning. So am I am I categorizing it right? It's just sort of how how the SROs work, why they could. I think Councilmember Duff asked for a comparison with multif amily zoning. We're working on gathering you the facts for you. But really how this particular project was assessed or, you know, in compared to the code and the zoning requirements, is that sort of where you're going? I think that would be good to know. And also kind of what can be done about visitor parking in the future. OK, and and other concerns kind of thinking about outside of zoning. You know, what can be done or what can't be done even to to to mitigate some of these more of an SRO 101. What's possible? Where would we tighten the code? OK, OK, yeah, yeah. And this might not, you know, where everything I just said might not change at all. The the the posting for what Councilmember Duff had stated, but I just wanted to kind of state publicly that I want I don't want it to be considered off off topic for this particular SRO to be brought up, even though I do understand that that the zoning has already been decided. And I knew at the time that this was going to come come forward. It was it was it was pretty clear. OK, I'll talk to the city attorney and make sure that we can present it in this way. But I've got a pretty I appreciate your clarifying what you were looking for. Makes it easier. Thanks. Councilmember Husspett. Thank you, sir. Briefly. So I would like a email, just a simple email on. So my understanding is the police when police leave the police station and they're on a call and they're delayed by a train, they make that call on the radio. They'll say delayed by train. I'd like to know the instances of that this year. And then second to that, I'd like to ask that in the heart, whatever the process is, I want to enter into the process of a work session, the ability to have the the the I guess it's the developer that creates zero energy homes come present to us during the work session. So I want that to be considered so that they could come in. So it's not some anything for staff to do. It's more getting consensus so that they can come present their what they do. And and I think it would be a good fit for our community. But I want to try to use it as a kind of a learning tool. So you would like them. You'd like staff to invite them. Yes, sir. Just talk about their products. OK, please. OK. Council member Briggs. Scripture specific project that was an option in our survey for work session. So, I mean, I and then you just stated that that's projects going forward as if there's not really a reason to have it. So, I mean, I would I would like to hear it as well. If it was an option in the survey, I just assume that it would still be an option. The the option in the survey would be to have a work session on whether we could differentiate how an SRO is treated in the zoning code and approved in the requirements versus a multifamily development. Those requirements in terms of the SRO scripture that is fully entitled. It's moving forward. I mean, as long as as long as they they comply with every strict provision in the DDC, the code, we cannot stop it at this point that they've had that they're working within the existing zoning. If there's a loophole in there, there's a loophole. But I just wanna be very careful here, because my concern, and I need to talk to the city attorney about it, my concern is there's lots of email traffic going on, lots of questions going on, with a fully entitled site here, and I am very concerned the city's setting itself up to a retaliation claim if we get into a dispute with them. There is a constant record being made now of can the project be stopped this way or this way, which is something we don't see, we've seen with no other zoning case that since I've been here. And I know that people don't like it, I know that it's had this zoning, but the time to have dealt with this was long ago when we rezoned it after the initial business change place. And I'm just very concerned that we can talk about policy options and how we change this all day, but I'm just not sure you have any options. And I would probably caution you very publicly to not use this particular project as the one example. I think you're treading a dangerous ground. And I'll defer to Aaron. - No, and I'll follow up with a legal status report to you all about the legal consequences of some of the actions that we've observed over the last few weeks. So I will do that for this council on Friday and the legal status report so that you're aware of the legal implications that DADIS has raised today or this evening. - Thank you, that would be helpful. - Council Member Armitage. - Thanks, so I just wanted to say that at the time when the zoning was overturned and it was clear that they were gonna move forward, I certainly got the impression that zoning was going to be reassessed, and there hasn't been a lot of reassessment of zoning that has been ongoing. So I think a number of people had faith in that process and I understand it takes time, but the sense that the time to do that was before. I mean, we really had the sense that this was happening and that the wheels were moving. So maybe that's something that can be cleared up at a work session, like the history of that maybe. - Okay, that's a good point. I mean, to down zone the property is essentially taking it. And that's never been on the table. I think there was a simple presumption made by council that by not allowing the equal height on both parcels that the project wouldn't be economically feasible. I think it was a desire, probably a calculation that ended up being incorrect, but there was never a discussion on council that downs on that property, and it just never came up again. In fact, we followed up with almost this identical conversation with Council Member Begari. Basically, Council Member Wasney had asked for the same workshop Council Member Duff did and Council Member Begari basically said, "Why are we picking on SROs and why are we specifically?" And the issue just sort of went away until this project became, they made it known that they're gonna build. So that's sort of the history on where we are. And we are more than happy to do all the work for you and do the analysis and see how other college towns in particular are handling this issue. I've been reading recently about Brian and Lubbock both struggling with the same thing. But we'll be happy to bring you ideas for the future. But I think the time to down zone this property was before they ever filed their case. And that would have been three or four years ago. So, I mean, do you have anything to add? - No, I totally agree with what you said, Todd. You know, they've had their application in even before they filed for the rezoning request. They had applied in there, if I remember correctly. So they were already vested and entitled to something on the ground and they moved forward with that something. - All I have tonight, I don't wanna just, so I'm reading it from here, is state some specific factual information. So the public is aware of this earlier tonight when we were talking about trees and the cost of those. And the tree mitigation fund, it was talked about that they collect $140 some. Well, that's actually per caliper inch. So you would multiply that times three. And that would then cover the cost of purchasing the new trees. Seeing no other request to speak, I will adjourn the meeting at 9.56.