Nov 14, 2022 Planning and Zoning Commission on 2022-11-14 12:30 PM (Capital Improvement Advisory Committee)

Okay, excellent. Yes, that cameras are on the top ones. Okay, perfect All right. Well, then I will say good afternoon and welcome to this meeting of the CIA see the Capital Improvement Advisory Committee the PNC serves as this committee and with the forum present. I will call the meeting to order at 1236 p.m For the record, we do not have commissioners Cole Anderson or Smith for this meeting We've got one thing on the agenda and that's receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding update to the growth Please Thank you Thank you so much for attending today. We are very excited to talk to you about the next steps for the way we impact fees I'm going to turn the presentation over to Pete Kelly who's going to do it a brief overview some of the slides you saw before at your previous meeting but at the very end we get into a little bit more of the Substantive information that I know you're interested and look forward to receiving your feedback We will be going to counsel tomorrow with a similar presentation And so we will take any comments or questions that we receive and make sure that we make counsel aware of those tomorrow Also, so with that Pete, I'm gonna turn it over to you and let you get going I'm told the dongle for the clickers over here. So I'm gonna stand over here to make sure Yes, good introduction we will be all over the first little bit really quickly We do have some updated numbers in the end as I mentioned. We're still in draft form. We're still receiving comments But we're starting to get close to what we expect the numbers to be so we can help have a productive discussion and get your thoughts or questions on What the fees are gonna be what the collection rate is how? The impact PCIP, so I'll move forward to do that now. This is a reminder impact fees are for new growth new developments They're one-time fee the Components in the effective study or the service areas our land use assumptions and our capital improvements plan We're also going to touch a little bit more on service units today with roadway impact fees Because it's water waste water impact fees It's what size your meter is with roadways how many people might you're gonna generate? So we'll talk about that and we'll show you the maximum fee calculation where it stands in draft form currently Our service areas as a reminder we have five service areas in Denton We had numerous discussions the first time the roadway in fact The study was was made to figure out where to put those we've continued to have a discussion this this time around is How will all those serve the city? We can talk a bit more about that later. We look at the fees Again, and I get your thoughts and questions on that Here's a service area map again We we did make it a little bit darker so you could hopefully see a little bit better this time Our land use assumptions again, we're based off the confidence of plans of that data Split it out into the four different categories residential basic service and retail And that's our our growth shown on the chart here if you can see it from that far away Look at those numbers already this reflects a fair accurate estimate of the next ten years The capital improvements plan as we've shown before is based off of the repair plan The roads that are in within the city limits have been that have been identified as future capacity being needed Those were added to the impact BCIP Let's see Yeah, essentially we're just saying here is a reminder again there are roads there are long lists of projects in your service area You'll see that that's not saying we expect to complete all those in the next ten years, but they're included for flexibility And then the amount needed to serve the ten-year growth is there's a percent reduction in the calculation So that full cost for all those roads isn't the cost that's being assessed Again this is an example of the service area be impact BCIP We have the two Different impact the eligible cost types in a new project and widen projects shown on the map We have a map like this for each of the five service areas showing which projects are So I'm going to dive into the service units like I said earlier We have to measure the impact of each development and we do that by calculating service units Chapter 395 of Texas Local Government Code Defined the service unit as a standardized measure of consumption attributable to an individual unit of development So for the roadway impact fees, that's a vehicle mile. So that's a combination of And the trip rate which we get from the ITT trip drainage manual the Institute of Transportation Engineers And then we get the trip length data from the National House of Travel Survey and that's data from the Dallas Port Metropods That's local trip length data. We combine those two to get vehicle miles for different types of land uses To show this can kind of a visual comparison According to our report a single family home during the p.m. peak hour for the evening rush hour is going to generate four point six one vehicle miles per house and Just one thousand square feet of a shopping center is going to generate nine point six vehicle miles So you start to add up a bigger and bigger shopping center. You can see how big of a difference in Those two uses are and we have a list Roughly 50 uses in the report That the land use vehicle mile frequency table and that's what's used as well when these are assessed later on and that's what's being used currently to assess the fees While we're talking about service units I did want to jump back to one of the policy decisions that came from the 2016 roadway effective study There was a good amount of discussion about how to encourage redevelopment in the downtown area Of an overlay and how where that could be placed and ultimately decision was made not to put an overlay at that time but this policy decision was made and is included in the ordinance that I Redevelopment must generate ten times the amount of demand as a previous compared to the previous use in order to In order to be charged an impact fee so going back to our service units You'd have to change to use that generates ten times more traffic over here to become subject to impact fees for the redevelopment so that's the current mechanism in place and there's options that can be discussed in this group and Suggestions can be given to council and we'll we'll respond to council's direction on what they want to do if there's anything And we've talked about service units we talked about land use assumptions we talked about the CIP It comes down to a calculation of the recoverable cost that's the IP which again the costs to Fix the existing problems has taken out the cost to build roads beyond the ten year demand is taken out and we also Complete the credit calculation required by law and divide that by the growth and service units to get our maximum fee So this next slide I'm going to walk through how that calculation is done Kind of step-by-step So you get an idea and we've got a couple slides here. This slide doesn't include the cost of financing. So this is the the really early on numbers that we started with as you see the I don't know if I have a That's my screen blackout. I have a pointer but I can point to the screen up here So if we have in the top row, that's our eligible capital improvement cost That's what that's how we've taken out everything that's not eligible in each service area Then we have our growth and service units. It's our vehicle miles being generated. So the higher numbers we're expecting more growth in those service areas And then we it's this light blue line is essentially the white line divided by the gray line the cost divided by the growth and service units So that that's what gives us our maximum fee per vehicle mile And we have this red line is if you remember few slides before we had four point six one vehicle miles per single-family home That's what this red line is It's this it's the vehicle model cost multiplied by four point six one So you do the same exercise for every other land use you take that vehicle miles and multiply it by the fee-per-service unit This is recap. So and just to look at what what was then what was calculated in 2016 and what's being charged today We were close to just under $10,000 a single-family home that could be assessed at the maximum In 2016 and what's being charged today is $2,000. So it's roughly On the citywide basis, it's roughly about 20% of what could be charged Don't move forward The next step is we we did add in financing costs and the the amount taken out for ad loan taxes This is currently an estimate in draft forms. These numbers Will likely change slightly but we like I said, we're getting pretty close to what we think the numbers are going to be Pending comments. We are still receiving from staff and from from you and from council So I won't walk through the calculation again just to note that we have a cost of financing being added in and that raises the maximum fee for service unit and The maximum fee for single-family home here is closer to an average of twenty two thousand dollars a house across the city So with that in mind Just wanted to have a quick discussion about how roads are funded and where Which buckets all those funds come from and what role impact fees play in that? so this pie Here is just showing essentially the costs that the impact fee study calculates in terms of total demands To build out the entire there for a plan. So there's a lot on there. That's why it's the numbers 1.8 billion. That's why it's as high as it is the biggest piece of this pie is this light blue up here and that's really amount that is beyond the 10-year window, which is hopefully Money that can be recovered in the future with impact fees at least in part That's darker blue piece of the pie. Those are just the existing needs that need to be met That impact fees are can't go towards so the thing we really look at Is the the red and the green and the purple? so the red is the part that by law we have to take out of the study and Because we're doing the credit calculation It's actually pretty low. The other option is we can just set that at 50% and move forward. So City has not elected to do the 50% we do the credit calculation so if we were to if the city were to charge the full maximum accessible fee, this is how how much the Big green piece of the pie. That's the green piece of the pie. There is how much would be covered by impact fees that would be roughly 30% of the overall need of Roads to build out the thoroughfare plan and that's without tapping into any other other taxes or other funding So if you look at something similar to what's being done today Which is about 20% of what could be assessed an impact piece As you can see that purple slice of the pie grows by quite a bit You have to come up with moneys in other places because the impact fees only accounting for about 6% of the overall Need throughout the city of all the thoroughfares that that need to be be built at some point And if you were to look at doing basically a 50/50 Partnership between the city and development You have your green and your purple slices being a lot more even there where you only have to come up with roughly half The cost to fund the rest of the roads And so your impact fee and your other funding sources are relatively equal at a 50% collection rate So those are just three examples of what it would look like in terms of funding roadways So I'll get into some options that we've worked with staff to put together to put up for discussion So just to just to start off where we're starting from is in 2016 Our max for us vehicle mile was just over $2,000 and for single-family home the average was just under $10,000 What was adopted is about again roughly 20% of that's not exactly 20% or roughly 20% I also just want to point out that the that's for the residential uses the non-resident uses also got a 25% discount an addition beyond that and the Industrial uses were capped at the warehouse rate So moving forward to our 2022 Calculations we're looking to be around this 45,000 or 45 hundred forty eight hundred dollars per vehicle mile number And that would put it one single-family homes maximum accessible fee around twenty two thousand dollars So if we were to look at these three different options we put up here again This is up to what council wants to collect and if that different percentage Makes more sense to you. You're welcome to ask us about what would that look like or can we pass this on? But they're all explaining to these options what they mean, but essentially the 20% option here is Basically keeping up with the rising costs with inflation. So we'd be keeping the same percentage, but we're using 2022 costs now so that would roughly Double the amount that we're collecting today push it up to upwards of four thousand dollars a house. We kept that Of course, we also included the max here just to show if we were to Again ask growth to pay for growth to pay fully for their impact as they come in. That's that's what that cost would be And then we also included a 50% option in here with the intent to recognize What state law is trying to do and encourage a partnership between the city and development? So this is showing What it would look like to approach it as we do have it and you do have the cost would come out to about eleven thousand dollars a single-family home or $2,400 at the upon model for those those three for that option I Will jump to the dates that we can kind of go back whatever slides you want to go back to to ask questions about But kind of look at our roadmap moving forward here. We are going to City Council tomorrow they're gonna see the same thing that you saw today as we Continue to receive comments and when we finalize that study, it'll be posted ahead of the City Council meeting in December we'll have a workshop with them in December and that public hearing will be advertised and that will be held on January 10th and Currently the plan is to hold the next City Council meeting to hold that meeting to actually adopt the Ordinance, so we'll do the study and one meeting and the ordinance So what what questions we have any slides we need to go back to Thank you, just a question about the land use assumptions if you want to go back to that slide that had the map Mostly I want to make sure I'm interpreting it correctly. Sorry. No problem. Yeah Are those numbers for residential dwelling units only single-family homes perhaps the reason I ask is that when I look at the 20 40 plan that shows Around 37,000 new units in the 20 year period and this is about 12,000 So that seems like significantly shorter linearity just trying to understand where where my disconnect is there? Yeah, that's a good question So that this number does include single-family and multi-family. We looked at the 20 40 plan about 20 years from now We saw about 36 37,000 units like you said So when we're looking at what's going to happen in the next 10 years We did our projections based on the comp plan data that we got and but it ended up At about 18,000 in the next 10 years if you include Everything outside the city limits as well and EPJ when you took out the units that were outside of the city limits That's what brought us down How did the developer come home? I think is great. We've got a lot of good questions got a little discussion. I Would say in general, you know, they're wanting to receive the overall report And kind of understand the basis for it, which we're currently finalizing kind of that review As far as questions that were asked, you know, of course, they're interested in what option And you know, we've explained to him that that's really a policy level decision that council will be moving forward with You know, I think if there's a an option that the committee feels is More suited for them or one that they completely like would like to throw out That's something that we're interested in hearing from y'all today but in general, you know, we shared the presentation and The recording of meeting with lots of folks But you know probably the overall was you know a Lot of it was educating I would say you know when they see the max fee and they see the 18,000 dollars They think that's what we're going to be Collecting we're explaining. That's the basis for the total amount of fee and then it's based on you know, what option? So, you know, I felt like in general There was a lot of question regarding where do we think we would land and that's not a staff level decision. So Just trying to make sure we educate and share the information. I will tell you too We assume and think we'll more than likely have a follow-up with council Just based on kind of bringing forward the overall study and their recommended fees And I think at that time There'll be some additional questions that are asked but you know, the one thing that I think And what we're planning to do is really kind of give the whole picture of all the fees that are currently Being being, you know brought forward as a part of a development. So I've been working with Scott and Some of his staff to prepare kind of that information so we can kind of share that message because we realize this is one of many fees but the the What they saw from the presentation and what you're seeing now is is a decision has to be made but ultimately You know currently we're you know selling bonds etc to be able to fund many of these roadways And so it's it's really a policy Oh, definitely. Yeah, I just wanted that. I felt I felt sure about it keep it as low as possible Obviously sure there were questions in regards to that there weren't anything specific that you know A lot of people are just asking kind of what the relationship was, you know There were questions asked about words that were shown on the mobility plan But are not a part of the impact fee But if it's in the ETJ it can't be a part of that if it's a road that's in the county That'd be something we would have to fund. It's not something the city would fund This is specifically related to the roads just in these five service areas and there are roads that are shown Kind of on the outskirts of those service areas are attached to those roadways, but they're not a part of the city. So You know that they're obviously on our mobility plan But our mobility plan the county's mobility plan and the state's mobility plan are all You know trying to be in lockstep with each other Are there any cities that collect the maximum? currently for roadway Flower Mountain does right now There's a few cities that will collect the maximum in a certain service areas because if when you do the study You may have a service here close to being built out. So there's not a lot of cost there And so the maximum fees only, you know, a thousand two thousand a house or something but the maximum there there's In general the trend is going up and see these are wanting to collect more percentage-wise and dollar wise than they had before just because they're seeing the need to Fund roads and build roads for these people to drive on when that comes in Yeah, I mean that's certainly my thought I do feel as a city that we don't collect enough. Honestly, especially with the growth that's before us and is happening and The difficulty we have with our runs out there that I would I would personally like It to not to go a little bit above the 20% that we're collecting now Just because and and you know, it's not to be a slap in the face to development and all that I just I mean I do If I could go 50% that's what I would do. I don't think Council's gonna want to do that. But um just with with the state of our city the state of roads in our city and The tremendous growth that we have seen over time. I don't think we have kept this up in line with With what we've seen for growth and what we could have where we could be now if we would have Possibly inched that up a little bit. So I'd love to see you take that back to Council. I don't know how they received that No, I think that's fair and you know, we just actually went through an assessment of the current early impact fees That are already, you know allocated for projects that we're working on and when you're talking about a 50 million dollar road And you're only putting two million dollars to it or a 35 million dollar road Such as Hickory Creek phase three and we're allocating a couple of million. It does put it a little bit in perspective So it's a fair statement You know, we're going to do whatever direction we receive but of course, you know Fair statement and yeah, some of those examples, you know becoming reality in the near, you know in the recent future Yeah, I'm just giving my thoughts just you know from this position for sure as a as a citizen here who drives on these roads on absolutely regular and And puts people in new houses in this area and what have you and yeah, we are significantly behind it, you know In a lot of areas and clearly I mean we know what's already happening And what's already you know being approved and being started and all of that. So we're just going to continue to get behind Sure. Thank you. No, I appreciate that feedback. Thank you. Commissioner Villarreal. Is there an option that staff is currently recommending the council? No, sir. We don't have a current staff recommendation. Gotcha. So you're just giving them the three options It'll be a policy level discussion tomorrow really just to talk through here are the options. Here's what you're currently doing Here's the maximum amount by law you can do and then here's you know, kind of a middle of the road And then based on their feedback, you know, we'll have that next follow-up conversation. So We currently don't have a recommendation We we can express to you situations where we see just like I was talking about with current projects, but Not a current staff recommendation kind of are you all looking to bring for our recommendation to council or yes, sir We would like to hear your feedback today as to kind of what y'all feel Pete's gonna make this same presentation tomorrow at council at 4 o'clock And he wants to be able to say and staffed us to you know, we've had a conversation with the CIAC It's it's a part of the overall review is that the CIAC has the opportunity to review and comment And so we would like to if you're feeling one way farther than the other, you know We'd like to be able to have kind of your feedback and it doesn't mean that everybody has the same feedback either, right? So whatever your feedback is we'll gladly take that into consideration Well, I would like it to be as close to the maximum as possible, but Chair's point is more feasible and reasonable to council. I was And with these percentages these are it's not 20 50 or 100 it is Anywhere in in that slide, right? Yeah, you're just giving it so you can so we saw the high slices basically, but yeah You know, they don't have to land on any of these numbers Correct. Yeah, what we what we usually take what you recommend is to try to think of some sort of technical basis for why that percentage Makes sense and that's that's where we started from Of course at the end of the day, it's gonna be a policy decision and that right the technical basis that we've done is Here's what the roads cost. Here's what we think the growth is going to be and that's Maximum fee has ended up Mr. Prick. Thank you, Joe So I think my Direction is to go with a hundred percent And I want to explain a few things why You know if you look at our tax rate separated into O&M and And debt service over the last 10 or 15 years It's debt service has consistently grown and O&M has sometimes had to go down in order to Make the full tax rate the council passes power, right? Our projections don't show us growth slowing down So in in my opinion Failing to or really the way I would phrase it is anything less than a hundred percent as you said That's the technical basis of your road cost So anything less than that is really a subsidy from existing taxpayers to build that infrastructure out where People in developed areas may use that a lot less, right? Right. There may be some exceptions to certain roads that have crossed connectivity and that sort of thing, right? That's where that comes from my My biggest fear with impact fees And I guess planning staff if you have any feedback why I should still fear this, please let me know but my fear in general with impact fees is that you set them forth and it becomes in some cases an incentive to Capture development that you might not otherwise capture just because you can get a cash influx to pay for this road You know, you need to build right and so you start Not that you actually make those decisions, but there is an incentive To accept development may not be 100% in line with your comp plan in order to balance the books, right now My understanding with annexation law changes in the state of Texas, etc. Etc. Is that that risk? locally Maybe less than in other jurisdictions just because it's not as much. Are you understanding? I would say that I don't know that the city would accept any Inferior development as a result of the revenue but I will also counterbalance that the market drives this So the housing stock that we get in Denton Will have significantly more fees and the fees need to be increased. There's no question But when you talk about the max and that max on a single-family dwelling, whatever that number is ten thousand. I Don't recall what the number is So Twenty-two thousand Homes will still be built here But I assure you the home that is built here will not be as nice as the one that would be built in the county or in Aubrey or any of our neighboring communities because it's Imposed at the time of the building permit So if it's a pass-through to the homeowner, I'm buying a house as a consumer And I guess Margie would be able to speak to this better than me The cost of the consumer is how much is this per square foot? Well, I just had it $20,000. Well, the first place that will cut is, you know grant countertops then we'll get rid of ceramic tile then we'll You know put fiberglass insulation instead of spray foam or whatever it is All of these other pieces to the interior of the structure May get compromised So city will not accept some standard development as a result of getting $20,000 per single-family home That that's not necessarily going to help us Residential is a losing business for any municipality Residential subdivisions do not make money Even if we were to get $20,000 per home, it's still a losing business It's commercial. It's multifamily those those ultimately provide more tax base and again help for sustainability So not not a risk again. I see a need to increase the fees the max scares me for that reason Well, and if I could add to that and this is only one seat, so there's water There's wastewater impact fees that come into play. There's the park fees that are added on top of that And then and those are in addition and we're cost. We're cost recovery So we have some of the highest if not the highest fees in Metroplex And that's part of the conversation on the six is to be able to share all the current fees and What our wastewater is going through an impact fee update - it's gonna be to the later part of 2023 But just to be able to show here all the fees currently Being assessed. Yeah. No, I really appreciate that and and I know there are things to look at from a surrounding community perspective, especially with development ETJ, etc My Impression of this data is just that we're starting to better understand how much different developments cost to serve and It's a bitter pill to swallow that. Oh wow. This costs a lot of money and for decades we've been Essentially subsidizing that type of With tax base from the rest of the city and I don't know that that is something That is beneficial Denton as a whole so I think similar to Jordan Something as close to a hundred percent Would be my direction And I would prefer that it be couched in the terms of Here's the cost And if we want to have a discussion here's how much we want to subsidize that and that's what it would do to our debt service Tax rate over the next 10 years essentially I'll just mention as well that the requirement for this body is to provide written commerce council five days before the hearing But that doesn't mean that multiple rounds of comments Okay, and I guess just a fun finish out so I don't keep I would say the as far as the service areas, I appreciate that discussion. I'm glad that the Redevelopment clause is in the current Current the ordinance was not aware of that. I think it still does behoove us to look into the Requests that the cake had in 2016 of looking at some overlay options Especially if council can stomach, you know charging what it costs to this development Because I think that that's you know If that fees are can be a lot of money and therefore they're a big knob to be able to turn to tweak The style of development the area of development What you want to what council wants it to bring to the community etc, etc? That they can have more of an economic Than many of the other tools that we have just by their nature So I think it's worth moving forward with that I think maybe not in this round, but in the next round. I hope we Consider other ways of Chopping up the service areas just to make sure we understand which directions of outward growth are more Fiscally supportive and which ones are more of a challenge from a debt service perspective in the future. I Mean, I think you know, I was looking at Fort Worth, right they have a whole lot of service areas they've got three and a half times as much land area, but they have You know six times as many service areas as we do And they have a central five or six near their core that they they don't charge any for that area, right? But when you look at the calculations, it's already a whole lot lower per per unit and I think that just I Recognize it's hard to change streams But having an understanding of what do we want to learn from calculating the impact fees in the future They may lead to some good discussion and then lastly the The thing I would say about you know, how high do we set when we set the 20% level right that was in 2015 was adopted in 16 and as we saw we're only we're less than half of What the inflation would come back up to now, right and and there was low inflation for a lot long period at that time it was just high construction inflation and other things and so My concern with even going as low as 50 is that that's 50 day one But then what about three years from now when? Inflation continues to go it doesn't seem like it's slowing down at all right It seems like That might be, you know 50% now and then 20% in four or five years is my word Yes, so a couple comments I mean We could go a hundred percent in in my brain thinking that we could get that done. I mean, I Absolutely understand where you are with that From a single-family home perspective as Scott mentioned some of those concerns For sure, but also pricing, you know, we talked about all the time. We don't have affordable house We you know, nobody can afford a house somebody can afford house that will impact the price of a house It just absolutely will it'll it will Impact it greatly So it is something that I think we have to weigh very carefully because this is just one thing we're discussing But you know, we can't say this and then on the other hand say well Well housing prices are ridiculous and and we can't so, you know, I mean, it's it's definitely something that has to be looked at As well, but I think with everything that's being said We need to get this I mean, I think that's just there's there's It just has to and so I think the reason I threw out the 50 was because I thought that might be doable To go from where we're at. Um, and at least get something done But I mean, I please take all of that discussion back to council. Honestly, um, I think Collectively we're in agreement that the percentage has to move forward. I mean, it's silly that yeah, we're sitting here at Pointed out 20% and just to catch up with kind of where prices are right now It doesn't make any sense. We're not getting anywhere done with if it's called an impact we should be making strides to improve the impact and all we're doing here is just like We're not getting ahead. We're not at all, so it's almost kind of a I mean It's kind of a waste. I mean, we're just not We're just not keeping up. So we're just always playing catch-up always playing catch-up and that just doesn't make any sense I mean if we're calling an impact for you, then it should have an impact on the city and it doesn't when you look at it like that so I'm not sure exactly where the percentage is, you know, I mean Obviously I'd be good discussion to hear where council is on setting that policy It just It just needs to be higher than what it is and if we could yeah I mean to me if we couldn't I'd be happy if we could meet at a 50% if you just like look That's at least As you put it growth paying No, the growth paying for growth the equal partnership kind of thing. So yes, we have responsibility city to to to maintain and Improve and all of this as we collect money on development because obviously the city brings in money from as we develop But also, I mean there is a cost so that's that's kind of where I like that If it could go higher than that, but I just don't know that Especially where we're at and especially for what the impact the negative impact that it could have with regard to It's not shown as well on this slide only showing the single family on here we do have existing Non-residential uses so that's something that City leadership that you could choose to maintain that you can choose to if the single family or the residential rate goes much higher you could choose to Extend a even bigger discount to non-residential if that's something that you want to encourage So there there are lots of options in ways to tackle it to encourage the right kind of development that the city wants Get the right kind of projects built There's something to remind you of because in a way we've kind of centralized the conversation on single family, but there's Yeah, it's also easy to think of the cost per home And you mentioned earlier but talk about service units and they're being like 50 or something different Types I guess it would be of how you calculate. So you just so when it felt and comes in You just put them basically into a service unit category Yes, let me go back to that That slide here so these two numbers four point six one and nine point six There's a number like that in the report in a table for all fifty of those That numbers are exact, but all those line uses that are that are in that tape Yeah, and so it's split up into different categories even industrial residential Retail medical educational all those different categories are Yeah, there's some place for everyone to land that yes Thank you appreciate your comments, I think our role is just to give council an impression of What we think as we see development moving toward the city and some other action because of broader circumstances Certainly understand that I would just say that when we talk about I don't think a detached single family home And so by By trying to reduce an impact be because of a single family home impact charge Really what we're trying to do is make the you know Call it like the third queen tile of the housing market cheaper, but Some people who are paying rent are essentially paying property taxes to pass through and there's no homestead exception there's none of these other benefits that they get and so I Think we just have to be careful when we talk about Affordable housing and what does this impact you do because by lowering this impact fee we're actually raising the tax pressure lowest quintile most affordable housing that our city currently has Sure, it absolutely does and I think that's the affordable housing concept is complicated because it means something different to everyone so You know keeping single family housing prices in a certain way is Still in that discussion and I absolutely hear 100% what you're saying But it it it does also mean that as well. It's just it's a very Complicated term For sure and I guess also I don't want to get into the leaves because I don't think we're posted for it but part of my direction to go forward with an Infill ordinance is because that existing, you know No more than tax kind of handles the redevelopment aspect But I don't think it really handles the infill development aspect of a big lot for instance and and so I think that that goes to some of the things you're talking about about different ways of Taking certain land uses or certain development styles to incentivize what council thinks we need in certain areas Do you think from else there are there any no just like Pete mentioned Written comment is what is required today. You're gonna want to see the final document So we're working through getting all of staff's comments completed And we got an updated version of the report Late last week. So working through getting all the city's comments addressed and then wanting to take into consideration anything that comes from council tomorrow So that that document can be finalized and then like I mentioned we anticipate coming back to council on December 6 and If there's a need to have any additional conversations with the CIA see well definitely Of course work with Tina and her team to make sure Those meetings, but I think from where we stand today and the information we've provided to you We kind of have an overall understanding of where your direction is and then just making sure that you get copies of those Documents those reports and you have an opportunity to give us that written comment back by state law to make sure we Take care of that consideration. So One other additional thing I think as I was looking at surrounding communities until you looked at Fort Worth and how they had it I don't remember if it's Kim Lee Horn who's assisting them right now. Yes My understanding is they're moving forward with an 80% fee recommendation to council. I don't know if that's gone through the process yet But just to level set what the other people are doing. It's one thing to compare to other communities who have like us haven't Haven't modified our ordinances in several years, right due to and the growth has changed so much since 2015 But it would be who best to kind of understand. Well the people who are moving forward now like us This is where they're standing. So And Pete has that level of information they're doing the impact these studies for roadway for quite a few different cities throughout the Metroplex and Have provided us information on Fort Worth Frisco fly around Salina there's several different cities where they have that detailed information. So And and I guess one thing I'd caution you is it's not all an apples-and-apples comparison I think Pete would explain that to you, too But in general if you were to make a general statement, I think that you could see what we're presenting before you today You're starting to see that movement of exactly which I'll discuss is moving the needle further to the max be Not being as a low lower fee as you see today. I don't know you can explain that better than I did. Yeah, I think was Especially was thinking about four words. They are looking at going towards an 8% that discussion is And I was also going to mention about the inner city service areas down there they started as fee service areas But as infrastructure got built out and started less and less We saw the key drop down in the calculation that then the policy decision was made So that was that was what drove it was the the fee coming down and seeing okay There's not as much sense to keep it in here right now We're still seeing a lot of infrastructure need a lot of growth in like service area ease where most of downtown then is so that's That would be one thing to consider when we're talking about do we drop the fee in certain years? We change it up and we both we want to watch over time as if you go up or down In respect of service area I'm sure just that I guess a question for me or maybe a statement So the the purpose is to get written comment. I don't know if the minutes suffice for those written comments So if this is the if this is the committee, there are several members missing So it's not going to be individual statements. It will be really kind of The minutes from this meeting to state They met this was the conversation and Hillary you can correct me if I'm wrong in that On the schedule we don't have another meeting so for the committee to make recommendation or Provide written statement. Is it the members of or is it the committee that is? So it's actually the the committee that makes the recommendation and the written statement and so we've received their feedback We can take the minutes to into consideration also as a part of the comment But we actually want to get the full-fledged report in front of them that they can then submit comment back just through email To have that information if they have any additional written comments they would like to provide So you're picturing presenting like a synthesis of the individual comments or something Pete Yeah, I think if we've got you know Percentage rates all across the board. I think what we have to separate out two things One is the the study the so the CIP and language assumptions There needs to be a comment specifically on whether that's you know recommended for approval and then separate that out from the what we want to collect moving forward so if there is a wide range across the board of You know 20 percent to 80 percent or 20 percent to 100 percent. We would probably need some type of synthesis and You know the CAC recommends increasing So would that be individual comments though or one collective comment from the committee was that your question really Is I don't think we can have a bunch of individual comments if it's the committee that's me, right? Well, the minutes can reflect so-and-so said something, right? But the overall comment will be the committee said correct, you know a whatever Majority recommendation whatever and that's where the synthesis of the the comment would be received And then I want to make sure you get a copy of the report in front of you So you have an opportunity to make comments on that? And I guess because we've discussed it if you want to as a part of the minutes going to discuss If you have any questions, what is that? What now? Oh, yeah Sorry One-twenty-seven for life reform. What was the first you said two approvals? What was the first one? So the first one is the the study itself so the technical Components of the study to land use stuff and all the other yeah, why use the CFP? And then the second part is the policy side. So it's technical and policy. Okay We don't want to just focus on the policy because they need to Make comment on whether the study is accepted or So just Follow up on kind of the conversation Overall the minutes that we receive kind of give us overall direction. We understand what those comments are that we've received We also want to get a copy of the report in front of you once it's ready for your viewing Which we hope is going to be very soon. We plan to present and get a follow-up to council We imagine there's going to be a follow-up and we are currently on the schedule for December 6 So that report should be ready for that December 6th meeting So I think as far as kind of a generalist statement the committee has made kind of a general statement of where they'd like to head The only thing I was going to add additionally is if you'd like for it to be a reflection of the the map and that's what Pete was just explaining to Ron was is that we would like an overall direction if you're comfortable with the land use assumptions are used being in concert with What was a part of the 20/40 comprehensive plan and then also making sure that you're comfortable with kind of the overall CIP Plan that was developed and so this will also be a part of the report But I don't know if you would like to add anything Pete. No, I think yeah The report will have all the maps have a project listed out the cost for each project and nothing you did The level until you go into is up to you, but it's gonna all be in there to review the technical components of it and if it's the The desire of the committee to have to get together again so that you can give us your feedback and we can collect notes We can also work that into the calendar if that's something that you would prefer versus emailing comments, etc We we by law have met our requirements of having this meeting and discussing these things with you but we have to receive, you know that written comment and as mentioned, it's either synthesizing it through a set of minutes and Receiving it from you individually, etc. We would still synthesize it as you're representing the committee, right? It would not be an individual Commissioner for it's at X, right? So, you know, that's kind of your decision We'll get a better feel tomorrow after we go through council. And then like I said, we imagine follow up with them on the six And obviously if once you receive the report, you feel like it would be best for us to get back together We don't have an issue with that. Your planning and zoning meeting is not until the 14th which is after when we plan to go to council, but still prior to the anticipated public hearing Yeah, I guess I'll just make a suggestion if this is Satisfies the legal needs for the committee. I think there's like a certain number of days before the public hearing that we have to have our final feedback And so that I think would be on this January 10th days, right and so Certainly, I want to make sure other members who maybe aren't even here get some input And so I wonder if it would work to you know finalize a report get that to everybody have some email Responses you kind of have a general feel from this committee and from some emails to direct the the general Direction to council when you have discussions on the 6th, but then maybe on our meeting on the 14th We could have a small work session where you collect all that stuff into an official statement Sure, we all just kind of give direction because we agree. That's our final statement at that time. Does that seem like it works? Company I guess if everything is prepared and Yeah, there should be no reason why the reports not finalized and we've already will have reset received two different council conversations we anticipate at least one if not two so if it works for the Commission committee To to meet in advance of the 14th. That's what Tina and I were discussing I was looking to see when the next meeting was so Commissioner fruit you're saying so make so like that hour before meet as The CIA say is what you mean perhaps. I I think it's a good idea If anybody has any other needs then I I'd be fine with meeting before there but I Think the reason that maybe Commissioner Smith and myself had a desire to try to convene before The council discussions kick off tomorrow was just to make sure staff understood You know what we're thinking as a body. Oh wait for you. So yeah Just a thought it in trying to do all that and I make an assumption here and I may have missed something Are we going to try to have this as a? meeting tied to a P&Z meeting So P&Z and then a work session so mid-December Is that where you're at December 14th is the only planning zoning meeting of the commission in December? So that would meet the intent of meeting prior to the January 10th meeting and they would already be convening for the planning and zoning Commission, so I don't mind if we're a part of the work session at five o'clock or if we and we Need at four o'clock start in advance because we have that we have been yeah Just for four o'clock meeting just know that you may not have one of the one of the members because he doesn't get there until 505 so And I guess depend honestly depending on what our agenda looks like for that too We we we could do a 505 and then do a Yeah, and have that done in an hour and then if it's a small job So we can play with that but maybe let's have that as kind of what we would want to do is me sure as the CIA see Before that meeting at some point. No, I think that makes sense and we can make sure tomorrow when Pete's making the presentation To council to mention that we're going to go ahead and add the December 14th That'll give an opportunity for the report to be reviewed and for us to have a discussion with you based on council feedback Not an issue with meeting on the 14th. That's no problem And then we can take that comment collectively as a part of another step of the written comments. Sure. Yeah problems Well, and we'll just work on schedule based on agenda and so a problem perfect. Thank you anything else Awesome including items Okay. Well with that, thank you everyone. I'll adjourn us at 1 35 p.m. Thank you and bye