Oct 18, 2022 Planning and Zoning Commission on 2022-10-18 12:00 PM (Special Called Joint Meeting with the Denton City Council)

Okay welcome to this joint meeting of zoning and city council. It's Tuesday October 18, 2022. It is 1207 p.m. We do have a forum on the city council side. So I'll call the meeting order and turn it over to you. Thank you. Good afternoon. I will call the meeting order. This joint session with city council. We do have a forum present. It is 1207. Awesome. Okay the first thing is welcome everyone and then anything you have. Nice to still be here. I'm considered a holdover at this point. So I love these collaborative meetings so I'm excited. Thank you. So the first item is item A, ID 222153, receive report hold discussion regarding the roles and responsibilities and expectations of the planning and zoning commission. So thank you Mayor. Tina Fergan, Stephanie Drucker, Development Services. Can everyone hear me okay? All right. Great. So we are recording with this flaget. So since we have the conversation, I just want to make sure you speak up a little bit so we can adequately record for that. So I'm here to present the first item to kick off our discussion that we have this afternoon. So thank you for being here. So our first item is to discuss the roles and responsibilities and expectations of the planning and zoning commission. So why have this discussion? So as you know with some of the presentations I've done before you, I would kind of start with the why and I think here's a great example. So we put this on your agenda one because council requested it, right? So staff we always want to make sure we deliver on that aspect. But two, I think it's really good from time to time for the planning and zoning commission and the city council to be able to get together and have that joint discussion to just have a refresher regarding the roles and responsibilities and particularly expectations, right? Regardless of what board that it is. I think it's also important from time to time to have the two bodies together, especially with the planning and zoning commission and the council, because you work so closely together reviewing similar items or special projects that we're working on, like the comprehensive plan, mobility plan. I mean, obviously we did extensive work on that coming out of last year in the first part of this year. But it really where it becomes important is if we've had change in leadership on council. So as you're well aware, we had an election earlier this year. So we had two new people elected to city council. Your objectives and expectations might slightly differ or influence the council's position as a whole when it comes to the planning and zoning commission and what your expectations of them might be. Also, it's whether or not we've had any change in policy direction. I think it's very important, especially for the planning and zoning commission, to understand that if we had change in policy direction, then they need to be very mindful of that and how that might influence their action, in particular on zoning and development cases that might occur. And then that leads me now also into the next point. It's also just to understand what council's priorities are for the community, especially as it relates to zoning and development activity. You know, are we wanting the top notch best in exceeding what's in our standards? Or are we OK with projects that are meeting the minimum standards that we put in place? Are we wanting some place in between? Again, are there other policies that now come into play, such as the affordable housing toolkit that might influence some of the decisions that the commission and the council makes when it comes to zoning and development activities. And then also, another item for consideration, when it's appropriate to have the two groups to get together, is whether or not we're having differing voting outcomes on entitlement actions that are coming before the two bodies. You know, if the planning and zoning commission was consistently denying all the applications, but councils over here are approving everything, and we're consistently having that outcome, then that's when it's really good to bring the two bodies together. And to have that conversation about roles, responsibilities, expectations associated with it. And in particular, if we're deviating from any of the adopted policies that we have in place. So before I get into the conversation on roles and responsibilities and kick it over to the mayor at the end, I thought what I'd like to do is just share with you some project statistics for a moment. Because as you all know, we each have a role in the development activity process, right? We each have a different responsibility, if you will, when it comes to zoning and development activity happening within our community. And just to put a couple of things into perspective. So I'm going to skip to this past fiscal year, October 1 of last year to September 30 of this year. We had 291 projects that had some sort of action taken, whether it was final action by the commission or the council. Maybe there are items that have been delegated to staff to be able to approve. We included the Historic Landmark Commission and Zoning Board of Adjustment, because they do also make up the zoning and development activity that we have happened within the community. But what's important to note is the 291 projects, right? So that's how many we had accomplished within the past year. As of today, right now, when we pull data, or excuse me, I should say as of October 6, we have 351 projects that are currently in the hopper, that we refer to many times. They are in some sort of status, whether they've got plans into us that we're currently reviewing, or we've sent comments out and they're working on addressing their planned comments and submitting corrected plans. But we have well exceeded this past fiscal year's number. So right now, we exceed that by 60 projects, right? But I just want to share with that information. So I know you know we're all busy, but when I say we're really busy, these numbers help justify that. But also, when we talk about roles and responsibilities, let's look at the 291 projects in the past fiscal year that had some sort of action taken on. So as counsel, as you're well aware of, you consider the zoning entitlement, the zoning, the specific use permit projects. You might have an occasional one-off project from time to time, but for the most part, you're only seeing the zoning and specific use permits. So that is a very small piece of the pie, or a very small fraction of the overall development activity. And just looking at last year's numbers, you're right under 5% of that overall development activity that we have happen. Then the Planning and Zoning Commission, obviously you have more projects that you take into consideration. Counsel has delegated certain approval authorities to you. So you're seeing about a third of the development activity that's coming through for your action, whether that's plats, the zoning, the specific use permits. I know occasionally raising ranch projects, the Planning and Zoning Commission is taking action on. And then I'm going to jump down to staff. So staff, we have roughly 58% of the activity that we're taking action on. And again, that's authority that you've delegated to us through where we're acting upon your adopted policies and regulatory requirements that have been put forth in place. And then we have the Historic Landmark Commission and the Zoning Board of Adjustment rounding out with that remaining 4%, if you will. But I shared that just to help you kind of see just where your little piece of the pie is, and especially counsel, yours is much smaller than what the Planning and Zoning Commission has, seeing roughly a third of that. Next slide. So just a couple of other data statistics items. So counseling, these graphics probably look familiar to you. They were shared with you as part of the council budget preparation that we had this past year. But it just helps illustrate the development activities and the jump that we're seeing in our numbers. And the pre-application meetings, so the graphic on the right, the yellow one is actually pre-application, pre-construction meetings combined. But from a pre-application conference standpoint, we've already hit the 200 mark. We've got the 200th pre-application conference scheduled for this November. We've made some adjustments to the development orders. We removed the requirement that a pre-application meeting is required. So it's strongly encouraged. That allows us to be able to get to know more about the project before it's submitted. We've made some adjustments, especially our development facilitation team, to be able to help accommodate applicants in getting face-to-face contact with us sooner or getting direction from us. But the development activity that we're seeing, I mean, it's very indicative of the trajectory that we're on, given that Denton is such a desired place for doing development. So next slide. So I shared those numbers with you to understand the pieces of pie, right, in terms of the activity. To me, when we talk about roles and responsibilities, particularly the Planning and Zoning Commission and expectations, to me, I view them, again, they're just one portion of the process. They're the middle, right? And so as Scott would say, they're kind of like an Oreo cookie. We've got staff and council on the outside with the Planning and Zoning Commission in the middle to be the best, the Oreo cream, right? But nonetheless, so for us to understand our role from a staff's perspective is, again, we're adopting or we're implementing the policies and regulations that have been adopted by the Planning and Zoning Commission and ultimately City Council. We're providing all that technical review for you. We're your subject matter experts. We're providing recommendations to you based upon the policies that you have adopted and put in place. And so that's our responsibility is, again, telling you whether or not we believe that the proposed project is consistent with those adopted policies, if it differs, pointing that out, helping kind of also understand maybe some of the gray area as well. As you're well aware of, we also provide recommendations to both bodies as to whether or not we think any of our policies need to be modified or if any of our regulatory provisions need to be adjusted. And so you see that, especially with the discussions that we have with those of you that participate on the Development Code Review Committee. We also then, we do have approval authority, again, that's been delegated to us by you all through our adopted ordinances. And whether it's minor and amending plans, we take care of the zoning compliance plans. We review the tree preservation plan, landscaping, civil engineering plans. Again, more of that technical review ministerial functions that we have the responsibility. Also, what's important from our perspective is especially those items that have a public hearing associated with them. We have a responsibility of making sure that public hearing process is protected. And what I mean by that is really from a procedural standpoint, you know, we're making sure that the notices are sent to the newspaper, that the property owners are notified in accordance with our adopted regulations. We're making sure that we're complying not only with our local requirements, but our state requirements associated with that as well. So we're also making sure that our chairwoman and mayor that you say the public hearing is open and that the public hearing is closed, right? Those are key words and I think Max is joining us in Hillary's team and making sure that we get that accomplished. So when I say more procedurally, that's our responsibility from that perspective. As you know, we make recommendations on zoning specific use permits, the preliminary and final plots and replats that come before the commission or council. But I think also what's important to note is at the end of the day, we also have a responsibility of remaining objective. And it also helps, as I said earlier, help work through the gray areas on some of those policies that we have in place. And also, I know sometimes residents might accuse staff of, well, they're the applicant or they're advocating on behalf of the applicant. If anything, what we're doing is we're not advocating on behalf of the applicant. We are informing you and defending our recommendation as to why we recommended approval or why we've recommended denial or maybe approval with some conditions associated with it, right? So we're providing you that technical expertise recommendation based upon the policies and regulations that we have adopted in place. So again, we're still remaining objective as part of our review. We're looking out at what's in the best interest of the city, our team as a whole. Sometimes we get accused of, well, you don't live in Denton. Well, you're right. I don't live in Denton. But I have a responsibility to you as a planner and for this community to review these applications to see if they're consistent with our adopted policies and regulations that we've put forth in place or if they're not. So let's go to the Planning and Zoning Commission. So again, you have that responsibility of implementing our adopted policies and regulations, right? You're part of that process when evaluating those zoning and development applications. You're making those recommendations to Council on Zoning and Specific Development Applications. Again, you're evaluating them to see are they consistent with our adopted policies or are they not? You also have a responsibility for reviewing and approving development applications where that approval authority has been delegated to you. Obviously, the Commission, you see all the plots, right? Very ministerial function that comes before you. Also, but what the Commission is going to be now considering, and this is new to them as a result of some amendments that we did earlier this year with subchapter two, that's variances. There are certain provisions within the ordinance that we've identified that really need to go to the Planning and Zoning Commission for action and not necessarily the Zoning Board of Adjustment because of the nature of the type of amendments. So working through the members on the DCRC, you all provided some recommendations to the Commission and ultimately to Council, hence why we've amended our development code in that subchapter two in that matter. When it comes to the Commission, obviously you've got a responsibility providing recommendations to Council and staff regarding policies or regulatory provisions that you think need to be modified. If you find that the Commission is struggling in its deliberation on particular policy or particular regulatory provisions, then it is appropriate for you to say, hey, you know what, I think we need to take another look at this. And we've already seen that with topics that have been recommended that the DCRC or Development Code Review Committee has worked through the process and ultimately to PNZ and Council where we've amended our policies or ordinance requirements. You also have a responsibility for protecting that public hearing process considering the public testimony. Typically, if you were to ask me about ex parte communication, I would encourage the Planning and Zoning Commission not to engage in ex parte communication just because, again, it's going back to you should consider all the information that you need to make a decision as part of the public hearing process. All of the information that's presented as part of your packet that you receive, but also anybody in communication that you have, persons that are concerned regarding a proposed project coming forward, having all of that public testimony provided either at the meeting or having communication sent directly to the Commissioner so that all receive it and all can benefit from that same information. And then also lastly, remember, you represent the entire city. So you're a little different than Council, whereas Council has constituents, right? Planning and Zoning Commission does not have constituents. You have the city as a whole, the residents, the business owners, the property owners here, and you're evaluating the request in accordance with what's in the best interest of the city. So, Council, you have some similarities with the Planning and Zoning Commission, but really, let's start at the top, setting that bigger picture of where you want the city to grow or to reinvent itself, and you establish those bigger picture goals and objectives that we want to be able to achieve. I know we had a lot of conversation about this in the Planning and Zoning Commission meeting, and Council Member Beck, where are you? There you are. I know we had a lot of conversation, and I'd look at you and be like, "You're too far into the weeds. I need you to be up at the top in policy level." So, again, you're setting that big picture or perspective of what we want to achieve, and that's provided for in our Debt and Comprehensive Plan. We also did that with the Mobility Plan. You've also done that with another policy that's been adopted, the Affordable Housing Toolkit. You've laid out certain objectives that we're trying to achieve for our city. You also have a responsibility of adopting those regulatory provisions, and, again, those ordinance amendments that we do, those code provisions that we put in place, whether it's the Debt and Development Code or it's within the Code of Ordinances, those are helping achieve implementing that bigger picture. You are also, as you're well aware of, you identify priorities of the city, and you work in extensive collaboration with the City Manager's Office to identify what those priorities need to be for the community as we move the community forward. You take that into consideration also as part of your budgetary considerations and what you choose to fund and projects that will subsequently be achieved as a result of funding those particular items. You have certain approval authorities, when it comes to, and Deval for that matter, when it comes to zoning and specific use permits, you included the alternate ESA plans because that responsibility lies with you all. You also have that responsibility, again, of evaluating zoning development applications consistent with our adopted policy. If you find that the city as a whole is consistently deviating from those adopted policies, then it's our responsibility collectively to identify it and say, hey, we need to go back and take a look at that policy. We have consistently acted, or we've consistently acted inconsistently in accordance with that policy, therefore we need to go back and revisit that. And so, again, that's where that top-down policy direction comes from with Council. Just like the Commission, you've got that responsibility as well for protecting the public hearing process and considering public testimony. Again, you're considering residents, business owners, landowners that have property within the community, and in your case, you have the elected constituents that you're representing. You've got individual districts, but then you also may represent the community at large. So, again, you're taking consideration making those decisions based upon what's in the best interest of the city. And then also what I'll add is for Council's consideration is you're also taking into consideration that impact on city services, the operational aspects, because that factors into budgetary decisions that you make as well. So, to me, that's one item that is a little more unique that is associated with Council because you have that responsibility from a budgetary standpoint in the operational aspect and working with the city manager's office to understand implications associated with certain decisions that are being made. Next slide. So, I'm not going to go through this slide. It was included in your packet. I just had this for discussion purposes. It basically summarizes what I just said, so we'll go on to the next slide. So, Mayor, what I'll do is I'll kick it over to you, but as I was thinking about this conversation that we're having today, some questions that come to mind just to maybe help facilitate the conversation, and that is what are Council's expectations of the Commission? Are there areas where the Commission is acting inconsistent with their roles and responsibilities as well as Council's expectations? Are there areas where the Commission can better assist or serve the Council? And then also, from the Commission's perspective, is there any direction that the Commission needs to receive from Council? So, with that, Mayor, I'm going to kick it back over to you and happy to answer any questions, but allow the discussion to occur. So, thank you. Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. Great presentation. And I do want to start there while you're up so that we can go from there. So, staff touched on, from a P&Z perspective, covering the entire city, interests of the city, not elected, so there's no constituents, is my notes, and from a Council perspective, bigger picture, obviously the public testimony, those roles. Any issues with staff's kind of summary, I'm going to address that because that's first. That's the guidelines, right? So, if we can agree to those things, then that gives us a good foundation and gives staff kind of a clear direction that we're all on the same page. So, speak now and forever hold your piece on issues with how the roles are lined out. So, I'll start with Council members. Is there anyone that has a problem with any staff as outlined as far as responsibilities and expectations? Thank you, Mr. Mayor. No, no, no real quibble. The only thing I would come in is sometimes the oversight component that I think is a component of both bodies is sort of embedded in each one of these components. And so, oversight at the P&Z level, oversight of policy at the Council level, I think it's important to note that we have that oversight role in both bodies. So, that's the only sort of nuance that I would add to the discussion. I don't know that I'm going to track with you. Can you help me understand that oversight? So, I think Tina alluded to this earlier. If the actions that we're taking do or do not track the policy in the case of P&Z or in the case of Council, if we feel we need to amend policy from community will, there's an oversight component to say how are we following those guidelines? Do we feel that of this three-legged stool, one leg needs some work and as part of that oversight component, and there are different levels of oversight. So, I think it's important to sort of be part of the whole overall series of checks and balances as it were. I don't want to stretch that too far because it's an incomplete metaphor, but sort of the whole purpose of it is not necessarily to simply keep the citizens aware, say in the case of P&Z, but also to do what Tina was talking about, to make sure that up and down the chain throughout the three-legged stool that folks are aware of when we're not fully in-comport with each other. Okay. Anyone else? Captain Watts? Yeah, I guess I don't really see it when you said we're not in-comport with each other. To me, planning and zoning is a separate body. You know, they're appointed, those members are appointed by Council members. I won't go into it, but, you know, there was some discussion many years back about your appointees and are they there to do bidding for you and, you know, to handle your, you know, put forth your own kind of person. I don't believe that. I think when we, when I appoint somebody, I expect them to use, you know, their intelligence, I expect them to use their experience, their expertise, and their knowledge of the community to make a decision that is, comports with what they believe to be true about their role in that, in that area. If there's disagreement, I guess I don't really see an issue with that. I guess if it's every time, but it's not every time. So, I just trust the process. I mean, if PNZ gets up there and they make a decision, Council gets to take a look at it and make a decision themselves. And I don't begrudge anybody for the decision they make because I can make my own decision as well. So, I really trust that it's an independent body to use the policies that they have to make the decisions that they believe are right for the community. Because we're all come from different experiences, different ideas, different platforms, and I think that's what makes decision making work. So, I'm not too concerned about if there's, if there were too much agreement, I'd be concerned. It's probably what it is. So, those are just some of my thoughts on some of those. No, no, I'll turn it over. Yeah, I think that's everybody. Anyone else, Council wise? Seeing none? Okay. I was just going to add to what Councilman Montz said. You know, when you think about how it all works, it's staff collects all the information and presents a recommendation. And then PNZ, when it's in our purview, we're doing that same thing. And then it's a recommendation to Council. And then Council gets it and kind of takes all that collected. The thing is, is you don't always take the recommendation. I mean, we don't always take staff's recommendation. Council doesn't always take PNZ's recommendation. I mean, if it's off scale one way or the other, perhaps something needs to be looked at. But by and large, everybody doesn't always have to agree. If we're all doing our jobs, we probably won't. I will open it up to the Commission. Do you have anything to add to the Commission or something? I think the definition of the role is totally fine without purview. So, nothing other than just saying. There's no other additions I would make. I'll just stay within the timeline for today. I think there's some pieces there that I recommend to Council that would be super helpful for us. Things that you can help with, but we'll get to that when it gets there. Okay. And then, so Council expectations of the Commission, is there anything we would add? And I'm going to prime the pump and say, as a body that's not elected, I'm going to ask that we then, from a Commission standpoint, ask that we not take personal ones at each, at the Council. I just don't think that we ask anyone that would speak for Council, hey, don't attack any or go make runs at any Council member directly, as a body, certainly. And I don't enforce that to the degree that I could, because I don't want to get in a bunch of arguments and people have First Amendment rights. Those same First Amendment rights trickle down to you, but I just say from an elected body to a body that's appointed that I think it's good courtesy to mirror those behaviors so that we're not seen as adversarial, so that we are seen as we work together. I speak for myself, but everyone has the same issue. Our cell numbers, emails are readily available on the City website, and you can get to the City website by searching Google. But there's ways to contact every one of us if you have issues. By all means, use those to contact your elected representative and make sure you address those concerns that way. That is a concern of mine, and I think that's just important to put out there. Also, I think when we talk about the entire city, I think that's critical. You can't target one neighborhood from a commission level, and I'd love to hear from the commission where your thoughts on that. But it has to be a city look. I mean, there's Robeson neighborhood meetings, there's Sedna neighborhood meetings, there's Dina neighborhood meetings, there's Forest Ridge neighborhood meetings, and as a commission, if we start to segregate and select out, hey, this neighborhood takes priority, I think that's dangerous from what the task at hand is, but am I wrong? Yes, yeah. Again, I don't want to go, I want it to be open, transparent conversation, and that is a sticking point for me. When I watch P&Z meetings, I have concerns about specific call-outs versus the entirety of the city, and I could be absolutely wrong, so open to hearing that. Thank you. Yeah, I'll say a few words, and then I'll turn it over to the commission. Getting to your first point with regard to any kind of call-out, that's completely inappropriate, and everyone knows how I feel about that. I mean, we're here to do a professional job. If there are issues you have, yes, email, phone, if you want to discuss something, that's where it belongs. We're here to do a job. As the commission, we are here to look at what is given us in our material for our agenda, and we don't have an agenda. Our agenda is whatever our agenda is for the city of Denton's Planning and Zoning Commission meeting. With regard to specific neighborhoods, yeah, we don't have constituents. I understand that that can be a difficult role sometimes, because if someone knows we're on P&Z, they know we live in the area, they'll contact us directly, which is great, and we should be a giver of information. But we're not their vocal piece. That's what our public hearings are for. That's what the online forms are for if they want to send emails to council at large, to P&Z at large, to the planners. That's where those voices belong. We're not their voices. We can give them information, but we're not their voices. So with me saying those words, let me put it out there to call the commissioners and let you add what you would like to add. I would like to say, of course, I am fairly new to the commission, and it's taken me some time to try to differentiate between, okay, although I am a resident of Southeast Denton, I have to kind of, I can't speak for them, and I'm trying to let them know that now. It took me a long time to do that, and you know that. But as I get back with their residents of Southeast Denton, and I tell them how it works, I cannot believe that I hear the same thing from every individual is, we didn't know that. You know, and I mean, it's from a young person to an elderly person. I say, we didn't know how that works. I'm like, well, you know, I can tell you, but I don't know why this was never brought to the neighborhood. It could have been, and maybe they just didn't understand it. That's why I was pretty much speaking up for the neighborhood, but slowly but surely, I'm getting them on board. Hey, there are ways to have your voice, you know, heard, instead of just thinking that, hey, I can't go up there and tell them, hey, Southeast Denton doesn't want that. Southeast Denton has to go up there on their own, but I'm just amazed that. I don't know how, I don't know, Sedna has been around since 1990. But when I talk to the individuals, it's like, we had no idea. We were told this, we were told that. I'm like, I hate to be the fly in the army, but you were told wrong. And I'm trying to get them on the right track, you know, so coming up to the meetings, you know, I'm working on that. So I hope from this day forward, they'll be able to come up and they'll be able to speak for themselves because I've already told them, I can't be, I have to be unbiased. And it took me a long time to learn that. And you've helped me with that and I thank you for that. But I'm telling them now, hey, I cannot speak for the neighborhood. If you don't speak for yourselves, then you have nobody to blame but yourself. And to that point, that's what happens throughout the city is people, the majority, unfortunately most citizens don't know how it works. And they get involved when something happens in their area and it's like, oh my gosh, what's going on? And luckily when that happens, that's when they learn and that's when they get involved. And we, I think over the years of the city have done tremendously great things to make it easier for citizens' voices to be heard. So, yeah, the best thing you can do to any citizen who comes to you on a concern on a project is give them information that you have or tell them how to get the information and then how to have their voice heard. Even if it's not a public hearing, they can still contact the planner. They can still contact their representative. You know, the representative, the elected official is who can be their voice. The commission is not that person, but we can help them understand it and we can help them get involved and understand and hopefully become better collaborators as citizens of the city and hopefully get involved and maybe sit on a board. Anyway, thank you, Commissioner Smith. This is not some sort of accusation by any means. But for those who are on council who have been on PNZ can know with Council Member Beck that we're the first line of, defense is the wrong word, we're honestly, we're the first bullet sponges when it comes to public hearing. It's not saying that city council, you don't get vile, vindictive, bitter people who speak to you, but they've usually put it out on us first before they get to you when it comes to these types of cases. And so I completely understand where Commissioner McDade's coming from that can be hard to be unbiased citywide representatives, but something to what McDade talked about in that they didn't know it worked this way. It'd be very, I know that you guys all have busy lives and jobs and careers and families. The more that your constituents see you as the elected official, the less we as the appointed official get the most poisonous of nature in conversations at public hearings. That if I can pick on Brian, whatever. If everyone in District 2 knows Brian and knows there's a project coming and they want to talk to Brian, they can reach out and they talk to Brian and hopefully get some insight on that. They can see the list of planning and zoning commissioners, they can see who appointed us, but unless they do that research and go through and Google and see that, they don't see our names until we're on the dais. And at that point in time, their emotions come out first. So it's more than anything else to what Commissioner McDade said. They don't know, they show up, they think that our decision is the final decision. A lot of times we're the ones educating them, hey, this is going to council. Staff has done an awesome job of including at the very end of recommendations that are going to go on to council to say, this is going to go in front of council projected October 18th, right, and then putting that out there. We also say the same thing to them, but they get a lot of their emotions out on us. So I think it's just good for the council who maybe don't know that to hear that we get the emotional stuff. They kind of use us as the dry run, and then they come in a little more, a little more logical and some of their emotion and the fires are gone. So we get caught in the crossfire, and I think that I appreciate your understanding and knowing that we're trying our best. Thank you, Chair. So, one to respond to that I don't even know because it's been a while since I saw the little postcards that we send out. I wonder if one action we can take on those postcards is to inform residents of who their council member is. I imagine 95% of our residents don't know. And then just a couple other interesting things. My impression is my impression so please don't take this as a group understanding. My impression is you talk about neighborhoods here is that there are some neighborhoods where commonly the direction of planning and zoning ends up elevating those neighborhood concerns over the broader concerns of our comprehensive plan. There are other neighborhoods where the broader concerns of our neighbor comprehensive plan are elevated above particular neighborhood concerns that might be similar it's hard to do a one to one comparison because it's not always the same right, every project is different. And there's a lot of reasons for that that I think have been touched on already. My question to counsel would be, is there a level of how you would like us to evaluate things as far as deference to nearby neighbors versus comprehensive plan understanding and embedded in that is a is a sort of a question of with things that have come before you in a year or two years whenever. Have you ever had any confusion on why planning and zoning operated a certain way, I know that staff gives a summary a little bit. But is there anything we could do as a body to help communicate everything we've done so that things move a little bit more smoothly. I think that's another point we're going to get to in the discussion. Okay, yeah, so then I think that's a great point and I do want to ask a question because I think that's Commissioner Smith you make a good point and and I'll saw defer to, to the PNC commission. If there's other ways that staff can communicate that in the front end right you say they do it on the back end but if there's anything else kind of as that's being noticed or that sort of thing or maybe there's some, I don't know what we would symbol you know something that says Hey, this one's going on this last office here, kind of whatever we can do I think that's about a point. How we can communicate that better than hey you're going to have two shots of this, or just kind of helps stem that time a bit, I absolutely understand that. I think, just to jump ahead and then I'll open it for questions I think you're exactly right. Eric and I think no one would know because you wouldn't have reason though but I reach out even before he's on here, Eric and I would walk the neighborhood a million times or I call him on something, a million times just because I appreciate his data focus, and he's pretty even Steven, and he delivers bad news well. But I say that to say that that's valuable your point about how to how to how we make those decisions basically is what I, what I asked every elected official I talked to just at other levels I say hey, what is your decision making process. So I can only answer for me but I'll tell you, I, I am an equal opportunity offender right I just think there's not a neighborhood per se that weighs above another. And I think everyone's ox is going to get go work by the time we get around to it so I just try to make it, I come to a council meeting about 70% baked right because I have an issue. And I've stood in front of that podium and felt ignored too many times right and so people come to people that I don't want to be an elected that sits at the, at the desk, and everyone knows where I stand, and I'm a lost cause, I want to be there and be open the person that talks to me two months before we vote versus a person that talks to me two seconds before we go should have to be weighed the same. And so I just kind of weigh those and best options and you know you all know well too well that there's no perfect solution right it's the, it's the. Sometimes it's the best of two bad options. And our codes and ordinances don't keep up fast enough with changes people trying to manipulate those are work around them or that sort of thing right see, see. What is that part seven part nine whatever the thing is, you know, it was an opportunity that they leverage right and so we can't close those gaps fast enough. That being said, that's my approach to it is no I don't have a neighborhood preference, or a kind of group preference, but more holistic. How does it affect the city is a good bad and different, and then that public input kind of fills in the last part so staffs kind of makes that is about 70%. And whatever we hear at the public hearing and from the public leading up to, and then I don't make a decision until I have to and I don't signal where I fall early and often just because I want to hear from from everyone so that's that's my individual approach but but that's just kind of, I do want to answer your question. Great question. So I turn it over to council members, any, any other discussion if not then we'll hear from from commission. I have a question. If staff is coming to planning and zoning with information, a plan of action recommendations. How does the planning and zoning could reject or deny what they have distributed to them, you know, for, for whatever project, because sometimes the vote is five to one, you know I could see where the vote may be, you know, six to seven zero. You know sometimes there's a rejection of the project. How can that happen. And the project. I can see the project may not come to city council or, or do all the projects come to city. All the, all of the days come to the city council and then some of the projects that have been denied. So, I guess I can help address that question. In, in, in the projects where we have the recommendation, whether it's recommended for approval or recommended for denial, it will come to council. If we recommend denial, it will be a supermajority vote at council to have it proved is how is how ordinance rates, you know, for that. So, we don't make a final decision except, you know, we're noted, plaques for one don't come before you. But if we're just the recommendation, it's going to the city council for the final decision, unless it gets pulled and projects have been pulled and never made it to city council. But that's because it has withdrawn. Does that help. Thank you. And then as far as your point of how could it be a six one vote or whatever, because everybody's an individual and everybody's weighing out the project and we're not just some kind of rubber stamp. I mean, everybody still has their opinion about how they're understanding the proposal how they're understanding how it relates to the code to the plan to the future land use map. I mean, we're just not always going to agree. And that's okay, because that, that allows for good discussion, good information as council I probably maybe reach out to the person who maybe voted against and said, Hey, why, you know, could you fill me in, maybe, you know, that will help you as you make your decision. But, you know, I mean, everybody's going to vote. I mean, the job is to vote how they feel. They should vote for the project and see that that's where that conversation turns to whether or not they're voting for specific, you know, groups or or something like that. How, you know, how can we be sure that they are voting. I would answer that that we're humans and there's no way we can ensure that because everybody's flawed. So, but if we then step outside of that, it would be that somebody's just interpreting something, you know, and it doesn't make it right or wrong that we don't agree with staff. But if the commissioners doing their job, they will elucidate why they're voting a certain way, particularly if they're voting against a certain recommendation. I mean, if they're voting for a recommendation, I mean, do you really need to say anything clearly you agree with, you know, what's the things that are presented. I mean, if you're voting against a recommendation, I think it's it's it's upon you to say why. So if that helps. But I mean, there's no way to say, hey, no one's got some kind of bias. I can just hope that they don't and continue to to teach and say that is not what that's not what this body is for or what have you. But it doesn't that doesn't mean that everybody's going to agree 100 percent of the time. But they should be able to tell you, you know, why they came up with their opinion. And. Yeah, Commissioner Bird, did you have more on the floor? No, thank you. Great. I was going to add just a little bit to our past discussion, Commissioner Smith in particular, how we get the blows from a public hearing. I mean, that's just part of it, right. So I think who's ever going to eventually be here, you know, part of this job is definitely to like smooth and diffuse, you know, because a lot of that emotion comes from misunderstanding, not understanding, feeling slighted in the past, having an opinion that might not be true. In the end, if you if you just kind of help educate each time, I mean, it's not going to stop people from yelling at us. That's never going to go away. But I think that's that's part of it is to make them understand, because a lot of times they're yelling about something that actually is either out of our purview altogether. Actually, most of the time that is it might not even be what we're actually voting on. And then you just try to tell them this is actually what we're voting on and buy and thank you and then maybe try to direct them to somebody on staff who maybe can help them or their council person to get that heard. And then with regard to Commissioner Prout, you mentioned like neighborhood. I mean, I just don't see that as an issue, as I have told you many, many times. Every project is an individual project, right. And it and it and it gets looked at as such. And yes, sometimes the neighborhood maybe is a reason that maybe a project doesn't go through because it doesn't make sense. It's not a good fit, but it doesn't mean, you know, one's better than another just because, you know, a project got approved in one area. I don't think that's a problem because, again, if we're doing our job, we're looking at the entire picture, the comp plan, the future land use map, our code. What is the project? What is the space? What is the safety factor around it? All of that and how it fits into our city and is it a good idea or not? My notes there. I believe it's true up to your. Anyone have anything to. Thank you. And I'll try to be brief because I know we're getting short on time, but I agree with a lot of sentiments that I've heard from various members that that perhaps. And I think we saw some light examples that the chair has helped with just now that the mayor and I, in particular, are coming from PNZ. I honestly think that was tremendously helpful. You understand the process much better. And when you switch from from, you know, in oversight of policy to implementing policy, I think that is a critical element, that understanding that we got coming up through the trenches, as it were. And so if there was some ways that we could do better education outreach and training, and I know I say those three words all the time, but if there was a place where we had a landing page where this is the process that you've inserted here, this is the number of steps left. It's sort of a one pager that we can help people understand, you know, places for feedback would be counselor staff places for feedback would be PNZ or not, depending on the issue. And those would be more like code revisions for those but a place where you could see a sort of a map, because people are visual and say okay well this is this kind of issue insert here this is this is why you know that and become educated about the process. And hopefully maybe some of that would relieve some of the tension from times that they should be yelling at us and not yelling at you, because I absolutely remember when they would yell at me from the other side. And that's all I'll just, I'll just leave it there. Anyone else. Comments. Hard for either a new commission member or for a new council member is that every single decision is a balancing and conflicting interests, and maybe very obviously to everybody in the room, a balance one way or the other, but every single one of them is bouncing conflict interests, I had a constituent. Right across the line not a constituent. Somebody tell me one time well you need to be voting with the neighborhood every single time. Okay, well, the project may not affect the neighborhood and quite the way that they think it does the neighborhood may not speak with one voice. A particular individuals known for being the voice of the neighborhood, everybody disagrees with whenever we get down to the brass tacks. So, even just kind of that premise that the neighborhood speaks on something is kind of is difficult, you know, because different people feel different ways. But I think if you start with the premise of, it's always going to be a balance. And then you start putting that the inputs in. And that's how I make my decisions is there's not everybody's going to walk away with not being 100% happy with exactly how it went down. The best we can hope for, you know, on these kind of projects are like the project we had pretty recently, where even the neighbors came into it pretty against any kind of development at all, walked away from the process feeling like they heard and listened to and they engaged actively in the process. And we don't always get that we can't always get that kind of gold standard. People know going into it that we're there to balance the conflict. We're not there to pick a side. Your project is awful and it's going to get denied no matter how good you how good you make it, or your neighborhood isn't being heard and we're going to vote for this project no matter how terrible it is. It's always, it's always that balance, a back and forth and a give and take. Thank you. Anyone else. I appreciate what Mr Davis just said, I am that new member of council. So I am constantly having to make these decisions and I appreciate what Mr Beck said it for someone who has never served on PNC to come and do this job so I just want to take a minute to thank you. Those commissioners for for your friendship. Please continue to call me. Don't assume that I know. I depend on y'all, because I appreciate your good honest and open advice that I've gotten so far, particularly chair so thank you all, please continue to call me as the new member of council so I can make the best decisions. I yield back. Anyone else. Great. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, I just want to add a comment there, I mean, PNC is a wealth of knowledge. As far as projects go, you know we hear them for a long time sometimes hours long. And you as council people your agendas are huge your meetings are so long and sometimes these public hearings come before you and it's so late in your day already. Your brain I already know is by them. And I just encourage you reach out and you all have an appointed person on this body, reach out and just get the highlights directly from your appointee. I can't stress enough how important that is because we really get into the weeds and and and we're not exhausted. Sometimes we are putting on the agenda but you know we're just not dealing with the amount of him for decisions that you all are on a given meeting day. We can help you with giving you a high level discussion topics I mean you don't have time to come to PNC meetings or watch PNC meetings I mean I know you don't I mean sometimes maybe but not every time, but reach out to your appointee. I mean you can get quick highlights. This is what happened. This was the discussion. This was the neighborhood concern. This is how we got yelled at. This is what they you know I mean all of that. This is why we came to that decision. I mean I think that's really important to understand that the knowledge base of that application. And then the other thing I would just love everybody to remember from PNC and council is when it comes to a zoning change. Every applicant is going to put together this fancy picture of their project and how beautiful it is and how beautiful it looks and how beautiful their development in San Antonio is that and no zoning changes tied to a project ever never ever. And so you just have to get that out of your brain. It's like forget the pretty pictures you know that they're going to be there every time. I wish I wish they weren't because we get so in the weeds about what the pretty project is and we completely forget what we're actually voting on and just please I mean take that away from here and share it with your future council and commissioners that about that particular name because every single time they will print this picture and it just gets better as technology gets better and all those pictures are just so beautiful and the aerial shots and all of that. I mean thank you for the presentation. That's not what we're talking about. You know that's that's huge to point that out. So I do appreciate you because that is that is critical that it's not tied to what they propose right. And it's not a secret that that forplex is not tied to anything. It can be anything right. Anything in that column that they said they were going to do. It doesn't. It could be any of those. It's not tied to anything. So you do that at your at your own risk. Evaluating and I see the question it comes up a ton. What is it going to be now at the council level. That's that's different because we're charged with making that decision. Right. We we have to take into consideration things that aren't on the PNC table to consider. But yeah that is that is a spectacular point that if you it's any it could be anything that falls in that column and what they represent to be doesn't have to be once it's passed and obviously those restrictions we have are getting diluted by the day. And I expect a new fresh batch of dilution to come down in 2023. But that's a great point. So thank you for raising that. And I do want to touch on another thing you said because I do get a lot of value in watching the PNC meetings after the fact. And so I'll say it now say it later. I do appreciate every moment that PNC spins there. There are some long days lots of public hearings those sort of things. So thank you very much for that. And yes it gives me an opportunity to watch kind of hear the discussion here to deliberation. Hear the people that speak because nine times out of ten not probably not that high but I'd say at least four out of ten. So when it spoke at a PNC meeting is going to chase that with an email. So I have a kind of understanding when I get that email of what's going on and where they're coming from. So the deliberations and the discussions and the work sessions you all have are invaluable for me to go back and watch. I speed you up to about one point five. Well and I appreciate the discussion on not placing zoning restrictions. That's not how it used to be. I mean with the new code which is now two or three years old which with the pandemic and so forth you know it's been slow to kind of to evolve. But you used to could do that. Now I know that legal has had an issue with that in the past. That's why we have planned developments now. So the thing I don't think people really get is when we're just doing this because what I'm hearing is we're just doing straight zoning cases now unless it's a PD where they define exactly how it's going to be laid out the time frame of basically it may be laid out some of the specifics about the project as far as landscape parking architecture all these things. It's a straight rezoning case. Well straight rezoning case means anything in that use table is fair game for that particular property. So that is a that is a sea change from the way it used to be. And I think that's the problem sometimes with the community because we're in it every day. We're having to deal with it every day and the code changes and all that. But for the most part the community in the past for a long time realized when they show those pretty pictures when they show that site plan council or PNC can say hey if this is what you're representing let's memorialize it let's restrict it so that the community knows exactly what they're getting based upon what you told them. So that is a huge difference and I think that's the critical part that people need to continue to understand to be educated on that. Yeah, I want to put a multifamily there. But what can also go there is a myriad of another 10 or a dozen or two dozen uses. And so the plan development is I guess from what I can gather used to take the place of those quote unquote overlay districts. And that's we used to hate plan development. Now for some reason they've come back. So it's a good point. I don't know why those people bring all those pretty pictures up there and all that. But it's to try to get some kind of influence. But in no way. And the reason we had overlays is because that's exactly what happened. And I can tell you exactly where it happened. It happened at the corner of Carroll Boulevard and Eagle Drive where there was going to be a nice retail center there. And that was the pretty picture. That was the thing that was going to be there. Didn't put any restrictions on it. You get a multifamily developed. Nothing against multifamily. I'm just saying nobody knew that's what it was going to be. But it was a restriction. It was a use that was allowed. So I have a hunch unless we do the plan development continue to stay on. It's going to be very interesting to see because once people just start saying hey I want a straight zoning. I don't know what I'm going to put there. What's going to be one of the first questions we ask. What do you put in there. What do you put in there. Yeah. So and then it's like well does that mean to come to a planning to a plan development classification. So it's it's sort of a it's it's a catch 22 it's a double edged sword. Mr. Smith. No I think that you know counselor Watts brought up some of that. I was going to bring up which is I know that this discussion cannot say because there's been items that we've approved that have gone to council and have been denied or vice versa we've denied and it gets approved. I think that this is anything a big pat on the back of Tina and Scott and the rest of planning and development staff for doing a good job of working with applicants in between planning and zoning and council. You know for example the project that was off of Jim Crystal and all that the 30 acres on the south end that was going to be dedicated to parks they want to do that they're going to sell it off and the rest was going to be light industrial and ranch few states on the south side was kind of him and on back and forth. I wanted I voted for to go straight zoning. I know that that chair Ellis may voted against it wanted to be a PD. They walked away. I think it was denied even but they walked away and before council it came to council as a PD and that's a really micro. I can really small view of what happens between us and council. And this all leads back to the point of this question number four. Is there direction the commission needs from council. And that is communicate with your appointee and all that was brought up already, but specifically, and I'd be interested to know much like what you know Commissioner Pruitt said of can we include on the notification cards, here's your council member. If you've got contact if you've got questions. Can we include in the agenda notices, first and second motioners for the approvals and being able to do that, encouraging council members to say, you don't have to have a full on call us and have a conversation, but a, an email. I don't know where you see on there. It's noticed in your agenda. It was approved for three. It was approved for two. It was denied six zero, whatever it is getting an email saying hey I saw this went through like that. Any feedback, any input that coming specifically from the first and second motioner that person or those people are emotionally for the most part of the ones who were most heavily involved in discussion for the day as the PNC. Something that, if I could from a commissioner standpoint, heavily encouraged to counsel. Chris I love you buddy, you pointed me five years ago. We've had five or six conversations, one year, one year that's all we need. I've always known you've been like that and I appreciate it. I have a conversation with any council member at any time about what our thoughts were on there, and outside of Chris and then Gerard being my other by the person who's appointed me that's that's been somewhat of the limitation to the conference about O'Brien I've talked once or so, Jesse I've talked once or so Brandon I've talked once or so, but there hasn't been the haven't haven't haven't haven't having more conversations with commissioners from council. Like my chair Alice said would would really help you guys when it gets to your job. So that direction would be great. No, I think that's a really good point. And we had, and I asked for the same thing so we're twins like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito. Because of that I asked for that to be kind of captured on the ordinances that we passed right that whose name because it was just impossible to go back and look who's on council back then, where did they fall that sort of thing so I think that is really neat. I think we have a template for that and I asked for hyperlinks to the videos as well to kind of do exactly what you're talking about but you have an even better idea to just kind of capture that those names and then we can reach out and have those conversations. Sorry, the most times whenever those motions we made especially on very highly contentious conversations. You guys know this from beyond PNC mayor about them back and mayor, but the person who's motioning and seconding is usually saying a few things before and summarizing their point going all the way down which is usually a pretty good summation of what just happened in the sometimes two hour public hearing that depending upon if it's if it's you know, Tim Smith doing it that it's a five minute conversation if it's. You know, Jason Cole it's two second conversation, but either way. Yeah, no, that's good. Anything from staff on the I think it's a great conversation, the PD conversation versus straight zoning kind of where we are references or anything there. So, in the interest, excuse me, in the interest of the public hearing that we have this evening regarding that particular item we really should probably refrain from any further discussion because we're not posted for that and we need to protect that public hearing, but I would encourage you if you haven't, and you have questions. Take a look at your packet. We're more than happy to address any questions one on one that you might have leading up to the meeting this evening. Okay, great. Yes, I just want to add to the notification suggestion. I would not want a console person on the notification for our public hearings and this is why they will have no information on that. So I don't know exactly what your recommendation was for that but if it's coming to us, it is so far removed from from them that they're going to get a call from somebody or email from somebody and they're going to have zero idea of what that project is about. So, I guess notifications do go out for a console public hearing on the case so maybe there it would be, and I don't know if that gets complicated for staff but that would be my only concern with that is that, you know, console is going to get questions and they're going to like what is this and they may come to us and we're going to have no idea what it is yet either because we didn't hear it yet. So, but the idea for the names on the PNC first and second, that would be listed on the council agenda, as we list the vote 6070 whatever it is 61, then outside of the recommendation is, you know, first and second are on there those are the contact points, because the council agenda comes out and we don't get the votes, usually until that following week but we can get it out and the agenda can show in time for that council member if they have questions to contact the first or second. But I hear your point about names on the postcards that go out to neighborhoods for the public hearings that council member may not be as well versed in that item. I hear what they're good. We have fewer single member districts than a lot of cities. And so it's always kind of an interesting, even your listing your council member that that's good to know but you also have three at large members that equally represent the same vote on a particular area, but part of the job being single member representing a single member district is you're going to have some geographic responsibilities and constituent outreach and communication responsibilities. Something I've seen in other cities is for these kind of geographic things that aren't citywide it'll say this project is located in city council member district, one district to district three on the agenda. I'm not saying let's just go go for to do that and that might be an idea worth evaluating whether we list where a geographic project is whether it's a zoning case or whatever. This happens in council member district, whatever some cities even go so far so list that their police reports I'm not asking for that. Anything else on it may go to be great. Thank you. Great discussion takes side and be ID 2 2 2 1 5 4 receive or hold a session regarding implementing the dent in 2040 comprehensive plan. Good afternoon. Lisa is the assistant planning director. I will keep this brief because I know some of that have you have another place to be at two o'clock and you probably want a little bit of a break in between. So we wanted to take this opportunity with both bodies briefly discuss implementation of our dent in 2040 comprehensive plan. As you remember when we went through the adoption earlier this year, there is an extensive list I think it takes up about 50 pages of the plan that outlines 271 action items, and those come from a variety of categories as you can see on the screen, and they're all prioritized by their time frame, you know short, midterm or long term. So just to keep that fresh in your minds just this is just an example of how that tables formatted. So if you do need to refer to it, it will give you cross references to all the other applicable sections of the plan. It will spell out which city departments are going to be responsible for that action, as well as what boards and commissions would play a role in that decision. And we wanted to let you know that staff is currently working on our planning staff is working with our strategic services officer to create a dashboard that will track the progress on these 271 items. So that would be publicly available so that anyone can keep track of what actions are currently ongoing that contribute to the implementation of this document. And then Ron Magida I think he's over there is doing a great job of quarterly holding meetings with other city departments just to keep tabs on what they're doing that contribute to these implementation actions as well, so that we can keep that status updated. We also wanted to briefly discuss how implementation is not just standalone projects like area plans and things that are staff initiated. All of these development applications that we've been discussing today do help contribute to the implementation of the comprehensive plans vision for the city. So we just wanted to tie that back to the development code. We do have one of our criteria for approval that you'll see staff analyze and present to you. On every zoning SUP plan development, even with our plans, we touch on this to show you how it aligns with the comprehensive plan and that goes well beyond just the future land use map. As you can see highlighted on the screen, that criteria for approval specifically speaks to, we can still approve things if they are not consistent with our future land use map because the comprehensive plan covers a wide breadth of topics. So it may be contributing to housing goals, economic development goals, land preservation, urban design, and a whole host of other things. So that's just something to keep in mind that we often focus on that future land use map because it's an easy thing to reference and to say yes, this quickly aligns with it. But there are other things in the background that we need to keep in mind as we analyze those requests. And then just briefly to wrap up, we wanted to let you all know the big ticket items that we are currently working on that you'll see coming forward in the next few months that do contribute to this implementation as well. So with area plans, as you're aware, we did prioritize earlier this year the top three. That Northeast area plan, we are currently negotiating that scope of service with a consultant for the plan, and we're expecting that contract to be counseled in no bit. With the Southeast Denton area plan, we are a little bit behind pace with the Northeast area plan just to keep those moving at a different pace and not have them all coming to you at the same time. But that one's also moving right along. We are in the consultant selection process. We'll be doing interviews for those very soon. And then we hope in the following month by end of December, if not in early January, to have that contract to counsel. And then the third of those plans is the downtown master plan. As I said, we are pacing those to keep them all a little bit separated. So that one's the third that we're working on and we're currently in the RFP process. So we're hoping to have that published either by the end of this month or early November, so that we can then start the selection process as well. Other things we're working on, vision zero, as you all are aware, if you've seen presentations from pre temp in the past on that. Phase one is almost completed. We expect to have that final document hopefully by the end of November. And then early next year, we're looking to kick off phase two of that to keep that moving forward as well. And then ongoing, as we've referenced here today, are those DDC amendments. Obviously our code review committee is very busy. You all can attest to the number of items that we have that are coming before you all. That list is very long and we'll be reprioritizing that again soon to figure out the next batch of amendments to work on. But as we referenced, we've had several recently adopted code amendments and then there are a couple of others that are actually on counsel's agenda for this evening that are in the public hearing process. And so with that, I will open it up for any questions that you all may have or, Mayor, if there's anything else you need to do before we wrap up the meeting today so you all can move on to your next agenda. Sure, I can't bring in some discussion. Mayor Pro Tem. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. So one of the things I just thought I'd ask questions about, because I know we've had actually a number of deliverables on this already, but they're sort of not in this sort of list of upcoming priorities, is we added that PPP component to our comprehensive plan that is new. And so it's not a traditional thing that we touchstone all the time as we update counsel and planning and zoning about where do we stand on historical and green space preservation. But I know that Michael and Kat have been, you know, active in those areas so that there's developments and I know that each one of those developments will impact the SAPs, the Vision Zero, the DDC code amendments, we'll see that it'll all intertwine. So I was wondering if we could, at some point as you're updating this, include that in those matrices because it's going to be cross cutting across all these these early priorities that you're, you're focusing on. Sure, so just to clarify your preferred land preservation. Okay. Yes, so we are making an effort, and I think you'll see it reflected in our staff reports for development applications to make sure we touch on that in the analysis if there is any impact to that plan and what that might be. But certainly with the area plan that will be a component of the analysis and those that you'll see. Thank you. Anyone else? Councilor Davis? Quick plug for the DCRC, as I mentioned, competing interests, all that kind of stuff that really can be very time consuming, and it's really best done in the context of the city as a whole, and maybe some hypotheticals and maybe some cases we all remember but it's really not best done at the dais for the first time and you're looking at this particular project and this particular developer in this particular neighborhood, it's really best looked at in a comprehensive way. So I just want to publicly appreciate staff's time because that is a time consuming committee we participate in, and then also my fellow committee members' time. Every other Monday, two hours, we just nerd out on planning, and I think we do a good job at chewing into some of these issues, maybe even more than we need to sometimes, but that means that we're vetting them out and really putting in the work. So I appreciate that we have that in Denton, that we have that to grow with us and to help us work through some of the things before they hit an agenda, or before it gets super contention and it's a developer versus a neighborhood and everybody at each other's throats and all that unpolitical stuff. Okay, anyone else? So my only request on the comprehensive plan, I think because I was asked this question and I don't know the answer, percentage of city of Denton boundaries that is developed. And so maybe that can kind of lead, kind of as a fact, kind of as we grow on that comprehensive plan to keep that in perspective, that'd be helpful for me. And then also, to go with that, I think the average, and I don't know if this, how you back into this, if it's easily done, the average percentage of treed lots that are available, right? Because I think if we're trying to balance that, it'd be good to know kind of, hey, this, because my understanding, just outside looking in, the wide open spaces that are easy to develop have been developed. Or are not close to the city. And so I think those infield development, that's what we're trying to do is do infield. And so understanding that percentage of what's out there, is it above average? Well, it will help me kind of make decisions, visionary, kind of on that comprehensive level to say, okay, well, here's where we are. I know we've grown our overall tree canopy. We want to continue that, that trend for sure, the kind of understanding better how to achieve that. So those are just two down points that would help me kind of keep the larger picture in focus. I think Parks and Recreation is working on the scope of work and getting it out to actually do a tree count across the city, if I'm not mistaken. That will help us because it will show tree lots and then any other areas that should show us where we're kind of a deficit for helping with change, helping our carbon footprint. So that's coming. Good. Thank you. Anything else? Anyone else? I know we just recently had a parks board saw it and then it came to council and got approved, but the impact fee for parks, right? And I got reviewed, I guess that was, was it June, May, something like that in that area. I've said it before. I said, I think I said the last plan zoning meeting last week. I just want to encourage for us to implement a implementing the 2040 plan. We do ongoing frequent reviews of our impact fees that we are doing because I think the only way we're able to make this comprehensive plan become a reality is that we are constantly reviewing what those impact fees that we're leveraging are. You know, that for those who didn't know, I mean, it should be us off that that that park impact fee hadn't been updated since 92. Right. And we're talking about offset of land and dollar amounts. That was 30 years detrimental. That's really detrimental. The reason why, you know, we had, we had infill land like the Evers track that we couldn't purchase because they wanted $7 million. But the dollars we were collecting from those developments around that area weren't even close to be able to do it. I know Gary Packett is going to call me later and tell me thank you very much for bringing that up. But, but, but an ongoing, an ongoing review of impact fees. I know it's in the comprehensive plan, but making sure we have to do it. And speaking of that, Dave is going to tell you what we're getting ready. Great news for everyone. We're about to start our roadway impact fee and wastewater and water impact fees and then P&Z serves as the construction committee on both of those. So those will start up as soon as this month. You'll have your first roadway conversation in New Water. I know we're seeing with CIAC, but it's more about as it continues. Great. Thank you, David and to contact your P&Z member that's first, not last. No, no, that's, that's great. Well, thank you very much. And so in closing for me, I'll just say great, very productive couple of hours and really grateful for the ideas and thoughts and kind of sharing of information. It's helpful and hopefully we can do this a regular segment. And thank you all again for your hours and time. I've watched the meetings and know the work sessions and know all that you do to kind of arrive at what you believe to be the best decision and hear our public and kind of filter those things down. And it really helps from an education standpoint for me to kind of hear those things and hear that discussion and debate and then kind of see the outcomes. So thank you very much for that. It's always a pleasure to be back on your team. We serve together on P&Z. So it's good. We're getting the band back together. And that, yeah, same. Thank you everyone for time and efforts and knowledge and this kind of thing and discussion is I think super important between our, our boards because we work so closely with these projects. So yeah, really good discussion, really good to be here. I did have another thought that is just like, so if it comes up, I'll interrupt you. Anyway, thank you for thoughts and discussion. Yeah, no, and thank you for staff and thank you to staff. And so I will, well, I'll let you conclude and then I'll. Commissioners, we'll see you at a meeting next week. Thanks for being here. I will close this at 1.28 p.m. Okay. And likewise, it's 1.28. I'll conclude the city council meeting and we'll reconvene in council chambers. I know what session two o'clock.