1
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 Good evening and welcome to the Board of Ethics meeting in the city of Denton.

2
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 It's 6 p.m. on October the 3rd and I always forget what the next thing I was supposed to say.

3
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 Just read this, got it?

4
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 And a quorum is present.

5
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 And a quorum is present, yep.

6
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 And then, yeah, so I just, I think you're good. You read the, you read all the stuff, so.

7
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 And then I just, before we got really into it, I wanted to welcome our two new members, Tom Pryor and David Zoltner.

8
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 Mr. Patricia has rolled off the committee and so that's kind of been the membership changes, so.

9
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 So then, I think, you want to let them introduce themselves or?

10
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 Yeah, if you'd like to introduce yourselves. We'll start with David.

11
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 My name is David Zoltner. I have been a Denton resident since 1983.

12
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 I have been a prior member of this board when it originally formed in 2018.

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 I served one year left for various reasons.

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 I have been off for three years now but I have followed the activities of this board very carefully

15
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 and written several columns in the record chronicle about the Denton ethics code, for better or worse.

16
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 So I'm very interested in what this committee does.

17
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 So, glad to be here.

18
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 Thanks, Sam.

19
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 Tom, you want to introduce yourself?

20
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 Yes, Tom Pryor moved to Robeson Ranch in Denton in 2013.

21
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 Lived most of my life in Arlington, Texas.

22
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 Worked in corporate finance for about 19 years and then started my own software and consulting business for 30 years

23
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 and logged three million air miles on American Airlines in the process.

24
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 So, welcoming. Now I primarily mentor veterans who are wanting to start their own business after retirement

25
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 or helping family-owned business leaders transition to leadership.

26
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 Cool, alright. Thanks, Tom.

27
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 Alright, we want to move on to approving the minutes from last week.

28
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 So, did everybody get a chance to review the minutes?

29
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 I think it was here.

30
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 Okay, any comments on them?

31
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 Nope.

32
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 Okay, I'll move to approve the minutes.

33
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 I'll second.

34
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 All those in favor?

35
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 Do we vote on 10?

36
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 Yes, you can.

37
00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:11,700
 Okay, so all those in favor?

38
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 Aye.

39
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 All those opposed?

40
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 Any abstentions?

41
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 Nope.

42
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 Okay, we have voted to approve the minutes.

43
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 7-0.

44
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 7-0, yes.

45
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 Alright, great.

46
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 You can call the next item.

47
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 What was that?

48
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 You can call the next item.

49
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 Yes, okay, so item...

50
00:03:42,700 --> 00:03:47,700
 Okay, so agenda item, what's this, C?

51
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 Is that correct? No, D, sorry, moving too quickly.

52
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 Receive a report, hold a discussion, and take necessary action regarding potential recommendations

53
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 to amend the Code of Coordinances, Chapter 2, Article 11, Ethics, Section 2-273, Prohibitions.

54
00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:10,700
 Do you want me to keep reading?

55
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 I think you're good unless you want me to go.

56
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 Okay, so this is part of, for our new members, back in March we decided to kind of have a comprehensive look at the Conflicts of Interest section.

57
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 And as part of that, we broke that up into basically five discussions, and this is our third discussion.

58
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 And it's looking specifically at kind of like personal considerations and prohibitions,

59
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 looking at what we currently have and comparing it to other benchmark cities, as well as Westler's Model Code.

60
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 And so basically I did that, and this is what I found. So there are eight kind of considerations that are clearly financial-related,

61
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 that are in various codes that I just talked about, and this is just kind of an illustration of those.

62
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 And then your backup is a little more detailed about what each city considers when they're talking about those.

63
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 And so basically this is for your consideration. If you want to make any changes to what's currently in our code,

64
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 we can take that direction today, or we can just say, "Great work," or I don't know, whatever you want to do.

65
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 I have a question about the language.

66
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 Because when I read, let's take offices, board members, or other policy-making positions of a business entity,

67
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 the last sentence there, actually not the second one, the second to the last sentence says,

68
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 "Based on our research, the cities of Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth, Richardson, San Antonio, and San Marcos include this prohibition."

69
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 And when I read that originally, I thought that there was an actual, so what that means is that those cities require a recusal?

70
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 Yes.

71
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 Or is it stronger language than that?

72
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 Requires, so it requires that if there's, a city official is going to take official action in their position

73
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 on a matter that involves a business entity that they're on the board of or in a similar policy-making,

74
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 some cities use policy-making position, that they would have to recuse from that official action.

75
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 Okay, but that's what the word, I just was wondering, that prohibition was not a stronger word than just a recusal.

76
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 Correct.

77
00:06:44,700 --> 00:06:45,700
 Okay.

78
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 Yes.

79
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 So just to be clear, they're one and the same.

80
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 What do you mean by one and the same?

81
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 That if there's a prohibition, then there must be a recuse.

82
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 Yes.

83
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 I had the same.

84
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 In general.

85
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 Yeah, so when it says recuse, you're prohibited from voting on taking an official action in that matter.

86
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 If it says disclose on this chart, you just have to disclose that you have that relationship,

87
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 and it doesn't prohibit you from taking action.

88
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 Okay.

89
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 Thank you.

90
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 Any other questions about the material that's being presented?

91
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 It appears San Antonio is the most, I guess I'll use the adjective, aggressive in the number of situations where recusal is requested.

92
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 Are you aware, is that a positive or negative in that city or not?

93
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 I don't think I can speak to that.

94
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 I have no way of knowing.

95
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 My experience would be that it's easier to know, well just about everything requires a recusal as opposed to picking through the,

96
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 if there's only three kind of situations within Denton,

97
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 I think that sometimes makes it more complicated than San Antonio where it's pretty obvious that recusal is required.

98
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 But this is the observation from life.

99
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 Any other discussion about this? Any thoughts that anybody's had?

100
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 Question.

101
00:08:32,700 --> 00:08:33,700
 Yes.

102
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 Senator, are we going to be, are you looking for us to make actual action motions on this, or are we going to discuss each line?

103
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 What is, how would you like to?

104
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 So I believe that the way that we're going about this is Madison's written down here some comments, right, of what we want to talk about.

105
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 Do we want to make any changes to the column that Denton has right now, and if so, do we want to give direction for Madison to work on that for us?

106
00:09:00,700 --> 00:09:02,700
 Does that answer your question?

107
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 Yeah, so what's been happening is we've gone through each of these sections.

108
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 You've given me direction to essentially draft language per what you've told me to do,

109
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 and then I've not brought that back yet, but I will as a packet of here's what we're proposing to change to the conflict of interest section.

110
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 And then once that draft, we'll be able to review that draft language, modify it, tweak it, however you want it before it ultimately would go to the city council for review and potential adoption.

111
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 If I could ask, because I'm looking at weighing some of this, recusing versus the word disclosure.

112
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 So I've told everyone I have a match, but I haven't lived. Is that pretty much what we're talking about?

113
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 I mean, what is, what would be the next step after I make a disclosure?

114
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 So the way that disclosure works, at least in Denton, is that you basically sign a written affidavit that says, hey, I have this relationship,

115
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 and it matters because I'm about to take official action under this type of relationship, does that make sense?

116
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 And so that written affidavit is given to me, and then I keep it.

117
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 And that's the end of it?

118
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 That's currently the way it works.

119
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 Thank you.

120
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 Members?

121
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 Question and a comment.

122
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 El Paso has one of the stronger ordinances.

123
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 Is there any reason that El Paso was not part of your, you've done a tremendous amount of background work here, and I salute you here.

124
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 I was just curious why El Paso was not included in.

125
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 So the way that I originally got the benchmark cities is I took it from, honestly, my audit side, where we look at similar cities, similar sized cities.

126
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 El Paso is much larger, and I also took some of the biggest cities in Texas.

127
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 I didn't think about El Paso when I did that, and nobody had brought it up until now. We can certainly include that in the benchmark.

128
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 So there was no special reason why?

129
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 No, I just didn't. I already have like ten or so.

130
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 Then the comment. Just from my memory, most of these cities here where you see the larger number of recusals or disclosures,

131
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 those are the cities that had historically had greater problems with ethical violations in the past.

132
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 So San Antonio is the classic example of things went off the rails for several years in San Antonio.

133
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 So that's why their ordnance and even El Paso's might seem and come off some of the more restrictive codes in Texas.

134
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 So the number of recusals is kind of stands as evidence of where they're coming from in terms of their reaction and their involvement with the cities, with the citizens of those towns.

135
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 So that being as it may, so that's it.

136
00:12:15,700 --> 00:12:19,700
 Any thoughts on where to go with this?

137
00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:25,700
 I mean, I think the point of this is to prevent an issue rather than to address things that have already happened.

138
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 So if San Antonio or Dallas were more restrictive here based on things that have happened in their past,

139
00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:42,700
 just because it's San Antonio or Dallas doesn't really mean that can happen here.

140
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 So I mean, I don't want to make this a burden on people that are voting or considering some items for a vote in council or some other board.

141
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 But I don't think that I think we're trying to avoid issues rather than punish people for what they've already done.

142
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 I tend to lean on the side of transparency and keeping things as ethical as possible.

143
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 If acusal is one simple way to avoid a conflict of interest and the appearance of a conflict of interest, then I think it should be stated.

144
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 So if we were looking at this as a package, then I would say what Denton does not do, Denton should recuse.

145
00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:51,700
 You know, and I think that that is really important to remember too, is it's the appearance of an ethical conflict.

146
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 It does not mean that there's any actual wrongdoing.

147
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 So if we err on the side of caution with recusal, I think then that's prudent to do just to avoid that potential for the appearance of the conflict.

148
00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:10,700
 Thank you. Member Reiner.

149
00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:14,700
 I would kind of dovetail with that transparency.

150
00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:22,700
 I'm a little reluctant on the word recuse if we're going to use these definitions for the purpose of the recuse.

151
00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:26,700
 I think these are a little bit too restrictive.

152
00:14:26,700 --> 00:14:36,700
 For the simple reason we've had council members that have recused themselves and some of them have asked our opinion or have asked for city attorney opinion

153
00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:42,700
 and saw a need to just recuse themselves as just the simple word that it is, I will not vote.

154
00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:54,700
 But I think some of these are a little bit, in my opinion, a little bit too stringent for some of the public servants as to their nature of their business.

155
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 If they recognize it, which is what we have now in our ethics on the recusing, I'm thinking that that could be enough.

156
00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:13,700
 I like the word disclosure. That's sort of like a yellow line, hey, this may be something you need to look at versus the solid recuse if we,

157
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 unless we want to lighten up the, in my opinion, a little bit on the reasons for the recuse.

158
00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:21,700
 That's just my opinion. Thank you, Madam Chair.

159
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:27,700
 Thank you.

160
00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:37,700
 Yeah, so in reading through this, I think that I found it interesting that we don't hit two of the subjects that the model code covers,

161
00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:41,700
 but we hit two that it also doesn't.

162
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:53,700
 I thought it was interesting too that you brought up, member, I think it was Soltner brought up that a lot of these from San Antonio and Dallas are responses to issues that they have had in the past.

163
00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:57,700
 So as member Pavlik, is that how you say your name, Justin?

164
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 Pavlik.

165
00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:07,700
 Thank you, Pavlik said we don't really want to be in response to something, but I'm curious what people's thoughts are on using the word recuse versus disclosure.

166
00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:18,700
 Member Rayner brought that up. Does anybody want to comment on that, on which direction to go there?

167
00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:34,700
 Yes. I would say that if we're taking action, then I would support a recuse rather than a disclosure, because disclosure is basically, as soon as I'm just disclosing it,

168
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 and that's the end of the question, then there's the same potential for the appearance of an ethical conflict.

169
00:16:44,700 --> 00:17:00,700
 I mean, obviously it could be cleared up, but I mean, I think it is much more, it shows much more of that proactive direction that we're thinking about going, I'm assuming from the comments,

170
00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:14,700
 where disclosure is not public, whereas a recusal would be a public display of I'm recusing myself, I'm not loathing because of potential conflict of interest.

171
00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:18,700
 So it would technically be a public document, but you would have to go know it exists in Google.

172
00:17:18,700 --> 00:17:20,700
 Right, I mean, nobody.

173
00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:21,700
 I just want to make that clear.

174
00:17:21,700 --> 00:17:34,700
 So in order to figure this out, I'm wondering if we should structure it, sort of like go line by line, should this be included?

175
00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:41,700
 And then once we get the included items, decide the language recuse or disclose. Does that sound appropriate to everybody?

176
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:52,700
 Okay, so I'll just call the item or the line by line, and then we can do a vote. Should I record that?

177
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:58,700
 I can record whatever, what the direction is and the vote, or you could, or we can both do it.

178
00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:00,700
 Okay, great.

179
00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:11,700
 Okay, all right, so Board of Business Entity, all those in favor, to make this something that we're going to include in either recusal or disclosure.

180
00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:14,700
 So all of those in favor, aye.

181
00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:15,700
 Go ahead.

182
00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:17,700
 Of which, would you clarify?

183
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:21,700
 We already have recuse, so that would be a given.

184
00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:23,700
 Yeah, in favor of keeping it.

185
00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:24,700
 I apologize.

186
00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:26,700
 Yeah, sorry, I didn't make that clear.

187
00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:37,700
 We already have this language, do we want to continue with it, even if we have recuse or disclose out there, do we want to keep it, or do we want, that would be aye, if you don't want to keep it, no.

188
00:18:37,700 --> 00:18:41,700
 Or if you want to add it, aye, and if you don't, no. Does that make sense?

189
00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:49,700
 Well, may I make the motion, Madam Chair, that on Board of Entity, I move that we keep the recuse as present.

190
00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:56,700
 Okay, yeah, and we'll go through and we'll talk about the language we're going to use in the second vote after we make the list, okay.

191
00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:58,700
 All right, so running it again.

192
00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:03,700
 Board of Business Entity, all of those in favor of keeping this item.

193
00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:04,700
 Aye.

194
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:06,700
 All those opposed?

195
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:09,700
 No abstentions, so that's all in favor.

196
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:11,700
 It's just a point of order, Scott.

197
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:13,700
 They're just doing, these aren't--

198
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:14,700
 This is just direction.

199
00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:15,700
 Right.

200
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:17,700
 So they're not really motions, they're not actual--

201
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:18,700
 Unless somebody makes a motion.

202
00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:27,700
 They're sort of voting as part of discussion, so even like make it a little more informal so that it doesn't sound like a motion.

203
00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:35,700
 Right, Scott, it's fine for you to do this this way, I think, as long as we're not making a motion, making it a little less formal, not calling it a motion.

204
00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:44,700
 I think the cleanest way to do it, for Robert's purposes, would be if we have a discussion about which ones we want to include,

205
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:57,700
 and then someone makes a motion saying, I move that, you know, we add the requirement that an official recuse themselves in the cases of A, B, C, and D.

206
00:19:57,700 --> 00:19:59,700
 And then we see who agrees with that.

207
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 We have a discussion.

208
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 Maybe someone can amend that motion.

209
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:06,700
 That would be a more proper toolsy way to do it.

210
00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:20,700
 In an important order, if I may ask the attorney, once we do that, then, if we're going to label it, then can we come back and give the definition of that label, or are we going to discuss it all at once?

211
00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:22,700
 The definition of recuse?

212
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:26,700
 Recuse versus anything else.

213
00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:28,700
 I think we can discuss that way.

214
00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:40,700
 I mean, again, this is still just sort of a, we're making recommendations, y'all are making recommendations to the Honor's Office to bring back, I think, right, official language that y'all are going to approve.

215
00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:49,700
 So at the end of the day, this isn't really listed as an official action of the board, but...

216
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:51,700
 It does seem like it.

217
00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:53,700
 It does? Okay.

218
00:20:53,700 --> 00:21:00,700
 So, you could, but I think this isn't anything that we're going to work on, we're going to work on language.

219
00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:08,700
 Right, I think what I'm really looking for today is, essentially, do you want to keep what we have, and do you want to add anything?

220
00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:13,700
 And if you do, do you want it to be a recusal or a disclosure?

221
00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:18,700
 And then I'll bring back the language and we can discuss exactly what that means in the future.

222
00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:20,700
 Does that make sense, Rob?

223
00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:21,700
 Yes, ma'am.

224
00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:22,700
 Thank you.

225
00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:23,700
 Okay.

226
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:28,700
 So, Board of Nonprofit, does anybody want to change that?

227
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:29,700
 They're switching.

228
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:30,700
 No.

229
00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:31,700
 Okay.

230
00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:38,700
 Anybody want to add offer of employment, and if so, who want to tell us why?

231
00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:39,700
 Yes.

232
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:40,700
 Yes.

233
00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:42,700
 I think that should be a recusal.

234
00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:57,700
 I think that based on reports in the Chronicle that's happened before where a council member has voted on an item and then going to work for someone that was involved in some benefit based on their vote.

235
00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:02,700
 And I think that's a pretty clear ethical violation.

236
00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:16,700
 So if there is currently, if they are, the way it's written here is if they are directly or indirectly engaged in negotiations pertaining to business opportunities with a person, then it's business in your entity or nonprofit organization.

237
00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:27,700
 To me, this is exactly what we're trying to prevent by having an ethics ordinance, and I think that this should be required to keep themselves.

238
00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:31,700
 Does anybody have anything to add to what Dustin said?

239
00:22:31,700 --> 00:22:35,700
 Is anybody opposed to adding this?

240
00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:37,700
 We're pretty consensus-y on this one.

241
00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:38,700
 Okay.

242
00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:43,700
 Just direction to include offer of employment as required to recuse.

243
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:46,700
 Yes.

244
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:51,700
 Business opportunity negotiations.

245
00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:54,700
 Do we want to add this?

246
00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:56,700
 Thoughts?

247
00:22:56,700 --> 00:23:01,700
 Trying to keep it a little more informal thoughts on whether or not we want to add this.

248
00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:21,700
 I would recommend recuse because it's a negotiation, so the relationship could influence the negotiation, and that's the wrong signal to send to the public.

249
00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:22,700
 Yes.

250
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:29,700
 I'd like for us just, would you give us a definition of a city official?

251
00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:53,700
 So city official for the city of Denham ordinance includes the city council, certain boards, certain boards and commissions, including the Board of Ethics, Public Utilities Board, Zoning Board of Adjustments, Historic Landmark Commission, Planning and Zoning Commission.

252
00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:55,700
 There might be one or two other ones.

253
00:23:55,700 --> 00:23:58,700
 Public utility, the definition is in the-

254
00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:00,700
 I'm just trying to recall it.

255
00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:09,700
 And then it also includes the four appointed officials, so the city auditor, the city manager, the city attorney, and the municipal judge.

256
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:14,700
 It stops there.

257
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:16,700
 Is anybody against adding this one?

258
00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:20,700
 Business opportunity negotiations.

259
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:22,700
 Okay, so we're pretty consensus-y on adding that one.

260
00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:24,700
 Recuse or disclose?

261
00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:29,700
 Is there any recusal on that one?

262
00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:32,700
 Yeah, as though I have direction to add that as a recuse.

263
00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:36,700
 Yes.

264
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:39,700
 Okay, affiliated business entity/partner.

265
00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:41,700
 Do we want to keep the systems closed?

266
00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:42,700
 Do we want to get rid of it?

267
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:44,700
 Or add it as recuse?

268
00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:49,700
 Thoughts, commentary, discussion?

269
00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:52,700
 I have a problem with it staying like this.

270
00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:55,700
 I would like that to become a recusal.

271
00:24:55,700 --> 00:25:08,700
 Because I think as this is outlined here, I think that is a very close business relationship.

272
00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:10,700
 Okay, two recuse, one for disclose.

273
00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:15,700
 Anybody else have any other discussion on this topic?

274
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:25,700
 I would just like to say that in all of these business opportunities, I would think that any public official that is concerned about ethics

275
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:32,700
 and the appearance of conflict and disincompetence would recuse themselves without being told that they need to.

276
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:36,700
 But unfortunately, I don't think that happens.

277
00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:45,700
 Don't think it's wrong, sir?

278
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:50,700
 Okay, so we've got three people who have spoken.

279
00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:53,700
 Right now, we're on the majority of recuse.

280
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:56,700
 Does anybody want to stick with disclosed?

281
00:25:56,700 --> 00:26:04,700
 Other than member Reiner?

282
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:06,700
 I have not heard a majority indicated.

283
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:07,700
 Yeah, I haven't either.

284
00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:14,700
 So I think I'm in the recuse camp myself.

285
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:15,700
 So we've got five.

286
00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:21,700
 That's direction to change that to recuse.

287
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:26,700
 All right, moving to outside clients.

288
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:30,700
 Thoughts, discussion on this one?

289
00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:44,700
 I'm a little confused how that one snuck in because it looks like it would fall into at least the awful employment business opportunity and affiliate business.

290
00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:46,700
 I'm just curious, what is the outside client?

291
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:49,700
 Why is that such a separate entity?

292
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:50,700
 Yeah, I'm not sure.

293
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:55,700
 What I read through this one, I felt a little bit confused about it as well.

294
00:26:55,700 --> 00:27:00,700
 Because I don't remember that anywhere in our code now.

295
00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:01,700
 Do we have that?

296
00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:02,700
 No.

297
00:27:02,700 --> 00:27:11,700
 I would be inclined to remove it completely because I think it's already addressed in these others, Madam Chair.

298
00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:12,700
 Thank you.

299
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:14,700
 If I could just speak a little bit on it.

300
00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:19,700
 So I think business opportunity negotiations is prior to a business relationship.

301
00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:22,700
 My understanding of what it's trying to cover.

302
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:28,700
 Employment negotiation offer of employment is also prior to that to actually establish a business relationship.

303
00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:33,700
 And they're a little different because you're going into a joint venture versus becoming an employee.

304
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:39,700
 I think outside client is trying to say you've already established a relationship.

305
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:46,700
 Not necessarily as a partner in a business together, but you have done some transactions in a formal business setting.

306
00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:48,700
 Does that make sense?

307
00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:55,700
 Sure, but I think that still falls into the -- because even in here in the definition, you've got 24 months.

308
00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:57,700
 Of the outside client or?

309
00:27:57,700 --> 00:27:58,700
 Yes, of the outside client.

310
00:27:58,700 --> 00:27:59,700
 Falls into which?

311
00:27:59,700 --> 00:28:11,700
 I think it falls -- I think it would fall under your affiliated business.

312
00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:16,700
 Oh, under affiliated business.

313
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:21,700
 Well, affiliated business requires that there be a formal business partnership.

314
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:26,700
 So you are like a partner in a business.

315
00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:28,700
 It's the most confusing one.

316
00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:37,700
 You're a partner in a business and then you're voting on a matter of your partners in a partner with a different business.

317
00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:38,700
 Does that make sense?

318
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:40,700
 A client and a partner.

319
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:45,700
 Yeah, it's just -- it's narrowly defined in a different way than this is narrowly defined.

320
00:28:45,700 --> 00:28:46,700
 I don't know.

321
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:47,700
 Yes.

322
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:54,700
 Where this appears like with an outside client, it looks more like a 1099 that you hired or something like that, right?

323
00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:57,700
 Essentially where you're not necessarily in a formal business relationship with them.

324
00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:01,700
 In terms of like a corporation.

325
00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:07,700
 So it wouldn't necessarily be umbrellaed under affiliated business and to see partner be a separate issue?

326
00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:10,700
 I don't -- I mean, you can certainly make that determination as a board.

327
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:11,700
 Okay.

328
00:29:11,700 --> 00:29:17,700
 I think there are reasons that other cities have done it separately, but I don't know them exactly.

329
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:21,700
 Fair enough.

330
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:30,700
 It might be helpful to have an example of what that outside client relationship looks like.

331
00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:34,700
 When I read this, I'm not getting a really clear --

332
00:29:34,700 --> 00:29:35,700
 I don't have to grade that.

333
00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:37,700
 It's a little --

334
00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:39,700
 I even highlighted phrases.

335
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:45,700
 It almost made me look back up to the next one, which was the affiliate business, but it did.

336
00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:52,700
 I thought it was almost a sub-chapter, too.

337
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:53,700
 Okay.

338
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:59,700
 So what I'm hearing is that we don't feel clear about what that means, and so it's hard for us to get direction.

339
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:00,700
 I could try to give an example.

340
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:01,700
 Okay.

341
00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:10,700
 Like, if you were a salesman and you had an established client that in the last 24 months you had sold more than $1,000,

342
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:13,700
 that would be under this definition.

343
00:30:13,700 --> 00:30:20,700
 So if they came for whatever apartment or something, then you would be required to recuse --

344
00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:25,700
 it could potentially fall under this category.

345
00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:34,700
 Whereas just having a client, that's not an established business relationship in terms of the law of, like, we have a corporation together.

346
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:39,700
 So I think that helps at all.

347
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:40,700
 Yes?

348
00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:46,700
 I'd just like to do what I can to clarify.

349
00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:55,700
 The model ethics code of Wexler's makes a distinction between an outside client and one of your best customers,

350
00:30:55,700 --> 00:31:01,700
 or this is a very, very intimate relationship as far as Wexler's concerned.

351
00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:10,700
 And so the idea in the model code, which, by the way, is the recusal, which I also would support and second.

352
00:31:10,700 --> 00:31:16,700
 But the whole idea of the outside client is that the outside client, the partner, the associate, and the employer

353
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:25,700
 are all four categories that I would vote for, not only disclosure but recusal in all those categories, especially an outside client.

354
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:32,700
 Because that's a huge opportunity for city governments to play games from the base.

355
00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:42,700
 So I'm going to recommend that we agree with the model code and support a recusal there.

356
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:45,700
 A disclosure and a recusal are not exactly the same.

357
00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:50,700
 You can disclose but not recuse, but you can't do the reverse.

358
00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:55,700
 So when you recuse yourself, you've already disclosed.

359
00:31:55,700 --> 00:32:08,700
 So again, from top to bottom, I just would recommend that we support the model code unless there's some specific reason not to.

360
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:19,700
 In that particular case, the outside client is almost the very first thing that Wexler gets around to in his long version of the ethics,

361
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:24,700
 or local ethics in a nutshell, if you've read that, if you've read his paper.

362
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:39,700
 So anyway, I strongly recommend that we keep the recusal in the debt income for outside clients, partners, associates, and employers.

363
00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:44,700
 Thank you.

364
00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:54,700
 So from y'all who we have one for sure, who else do we have for recuse on outside client?

365
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:58,700
 I would support that as well.

366
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:01,700
 I heard a direction to add that.

367
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:15,700
 Okay, personal bank and financial institute. Looks like Fort Worth is the only one. I think you mentioned that in your report here.

368
00:33:15,700 --> 00:33:25,700
 Honestly, I don't know what happened to them. There's a huge, huge list of potential similar things that they require disclosure only on.

369
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:34,700
 Like if the city council was voting on who the city's banking institute was going to be, you'd have to disclose that, oh yeah, I also bank there.

370
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:40,700
 It's one of the instances. So things like that of that nature.

371
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:47,700
 I was trying to come up with some scenario in my head of why that would be required, and I can't think of one.

372
00:33:47,700 --> 00:34:03,700
 I don't know if anyone else has run across this before of some instance where this was a problem, but I don't really see how this could be an issue that would require recusal or disclosure.

373
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:07,700
 Certainly one in the model code.

374
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:17,700
 My question is, is there potential for small business loans where that could play a role?

375
00:34:17,700 --> 00:34:45,700
 I mean, obviously we all bank somewhere, right? So that seems to be a pretty straightforward relationship where you don't really have any interest, but if you have a small business and you need a small business loan, and then something comes before the city council for that institution,

376
00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:55,700
 is there room, there's probably room there?

377
00:34:55,700 --> 00:35:01,700
 I don't, I think this is separate from that. I think what you're describing would be the last item.

378
00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:05,700
 The last item?

379
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:20,700
 Debtor, creditor.

380
00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:35,700
 So that's what I went to initially, and I thought the one we're considering now, the personal bank financial institution, that would be separate from something like a small business loan.

381
00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:57,700
 Maybe you could lump a personal loan or a mortgage or something in there, but I don't, to me the personal bank financial institution and debtor, creditor are separate things, and I can't come up with a scenario for the first one where that would be an issue, but I could for the last one.

382
00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:14,700
 Which, I can argue either way. My opinion is the second to last for the personal bank financial institute, there should be no requirement to disclose or refuse.

383
00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:18,700
 Does anybody have a differing opinion to what Dustin said?

384
00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:21,700
 No.

385
00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:24,700
 No consensus to change.

386
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:39,700
 Okay, and the last debtor, creditor. We started to talk about that, and it sounds like that one we have more of a concern about for recusal. Does anybody have a differing opinion from what we've already talked about?

387
00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:58,700
 I would just add that I do support recusal, and I like the fact that the cities of Austin and Fort Worth have defined what that, what substantial means, and so I think if we run that route, we need to refine it.

388
00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:03,700
 Okay, thank you.

389
00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:13,700
 I have a question. Up here it says that the model code does require recusal, but in the text in the document it says it does not.

390
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:26,700
 It says it does, it just, in the city of Austin it says debit your creditor or guarantor, and the model code does not include guarantor.

391
00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:34,700
 So who is in favor of adding this to our code?

392
00:37:34,700 --> 00:37:37,700
 And we want that as recusal rather than disclosure?

393
00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:38,700
 Yes.

394
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:39,700
 Okay.

395
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:40,700
 I'm sorry, which one are we talking about here?

396
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:43,700
 Debit or creditor.

397
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:53,700
 Okay, I'm hearing a direction to include debit or creditor for recusal. Is there any direction on guarantor?

398
00:37:53,700 --> 00:38:09,700
 Does anybody have any specific thoughts on that one?

399
00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:32,700
 I could see living with the model code with this. I think what you have there, once again, is David talked about, evidently Austin and Fort Worth ran into some problems with that, but if the model code didn't see it, I mean, I don't, because when you get to the grantor, you're talking about a totally different entity, are you not?

400
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:35,700
 I mean, you're talking about financial institutions, aren't you?

401
00:38:35,700 --> 00:38:37,700
 Yes, pretty much.

402
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:45,700
 And then you roll into DIC and a few other things that I think would be more scary.

403
00:38:45,700 --> 00:38:51,700
 The model code talks about some financial parameters there.

404
00:38:51,700 --> 00:39:07,700
 For example, if there's an issue before a council and one of the council members is in for a half million dollars to a local bank, that needs to be known. So there's some limits there.

405
00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:25,700
 If I own or if I owe a bank $50 on credit, I don't think that's relevant, but I do think that I would agree with the model code that disclosure and then recusal are probably appropriate at some level of debt or credit.

406
00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:43,700
 So I don't know what those limits are. I would just probably leave it out there and just leave it as a recusal in general terms, and if that ever becomes a problem where, in other words, I don't want my council buddies to know that I owe that bank $3 million, but I still want to vote on this issue.

407
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:53,700
 So I think that can be kind of a problem there, too. So I support that recusal, again, from the model code.

408
00:39:53,700 --> 00:40:00,700
 Shouldn't there be some definition of the substantial amount?

409
00:40:00,700 --> 00:40:10,700
 I think that we can deal with that when I come back with specific language, unless you really want to get direction on that right now.

410
00:40:10,700 --> 00:40:18,700
 That's what I'm looking at, the definition planter. There's a lot of this may be altered once we get our definition.

411
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:23,700
 So Madison, I'm not hearing direction to add guarantor.

412
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:30,700
 Yes, no direction to add guarantor. And then just to recap, because I think we're, unless there's other...

413
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:52,700
 Okay, so recapping for each item, keep the first one, keep the second one, and then add for recusal, offer of employment, business opportunity negotiations, affiliated business entity or partner, outside client, and debtor or creditor as requirements to recuse in certain situations that we'll discuss that later.

414
00:40:52,700 --> 00:41:09,700
 And you'll give us an example for the outside client as well. I think that's what we asked for originally.

415
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:33,700
 Ready to move on? Yes. Great. Okay, now item C, I was rushing earlier. Receive a reportful discussion and take necessary action regarding potential procedures to identify and process accepted ethics complaints that may be frivolous.

416
00:41:33,700 --> 00:41:43,700
 Do you want me to read the background on this? I'll do a quick version. So basically this comes out of the ethics complaint we processed in May of 2022.

417
00:41:43,700 --> 00:41:59,700
 We had first discussed last meeting about sanctions we would want to add. We've had that discussion. This discussion is to potentially create a new process, maybe not new, but to modify the process that we currently have and make it a little more clear for future boards.

418
00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:12,700
 And so based on, I did similar research looking at benchmark cities and the model code, looking at that only Dallas and San Antonio have ethics ordinance that consider frivolous complaints and how to process those.

419
00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:33,700
 And they both use what they call an order to show cause process. They have little tweaks for each, but that's what you can see on the bottom. The general order to show cause is kind of in general how that process works whereby a body of an ethics body would dismiss a complaint and issue an order to show cause to the complainant.

420
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:46,700
 The complainant would then provide a response either in writing and/or at the hearing. And then the ethics body would hold the hearing, determine frivolity, and then potentially issue sanctions.

421
00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:58,700
 I have our kind of current process up there just to kind of show how it differs and kind of the process issues that we identified with that process in the past.

422
00:42:58,700 --> 00:43:09,700
 So any questions on this slide? I have a bunch of points for direction that we can go through. But I guess the real question I have for direction is it seems as though we did want to change the process.

423
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:18,700
 So as long as there's no direction to not do that, then I'll keep going.

424
00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:31,700
 I'm not seeing anyone raise their hands. All right. So there's four points of direction here kind of on how we would begin a frivolous determination.

425
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:43,700
 The first one is basically who should be able to issue an order to show cause or if we decide to call it something else we can, but that's essentially what we're talking about here.

426
00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:52,700
 In Dallas, it's basically a preliminary panel or the board. In San Antonio, they don't have preliminary panels, so it's just the board in here.

427
00:43:52,700 --> 00:44:03,700
 We can recommend to have another hearing to determine frivolity. Either the panel or a board can do that. So that's the first kind of point, the direction.

428
00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:10,700
 And the idea would be I'll take the direction and come back with potential language just like we talked about with the last one.

429
00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:21,700
 So my immediate reaction to this when I read it was that the preliminary panel should be able to issue an order to show cause by two-thirds vote.

430
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:46,700
 And if we put that into writing, should the preliminary change in size at any point in time, that two-thirds would at least be in the writing. But I'm open to other comments.

431
00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:57,700
 I think Madison wrote in here that that would mean two out of the three people present at the panel. I just want to confirm that that feels good for everybody.

432
00:44:57,700 --> 00:45:18,700
 I would like to ask a question. So the biggest change that we're looking at is that the preliminary board can already, that's your first point of direction there, to be able to begin a frivolous determination process.

433
00:45:18,700 --> 00:45:33,700
 Is that the biggest difference that we're discussing? So currently, I guess the first point is do you want to continue with the panel's ability to begin that process? Right now they can. Right now also the board can. Do we want to continue with that?

434
00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:52,700
 The other question that Hannah kind of threw in there was by what majority? And as you can see the other, that you can vote by two-thirds of the people present in both cases. Ours is a simple majority, which is due to the size of our panel is the same number.

435
00:45:52,700 --> 00:46:14,700
 I think another kind of, they're all listed as different points here, but one caveat to throw in there is under our current ordinance, you don't have a disposition, the panel doesn't make a judgment on the complaint at any point before they recommend frivolity.

436
00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:33,700
 Under San Antonio's, they don't have a panel, so that's hard to compare with. But in Dallas, they have to already have unanimously dismissed the complaint and then vote to whether to have an order to show cause, why it's not frivolous.

437
00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:54,700
 They all kind of work together, perhaps I could have compared this a little bit better, but does that help answer your question? It does. I would like to follow up on something though, because you just said that it was...

438
00:46:54,700 --> 00:47:14,700
 So when there is no cause, so when the complaint is not determined to be actionable by the panel, then you said in Dallas they were able to immediately...

439
00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:31,700
 So under Dallas' process, it would go to the panel, the panel would determine, it could be actionable or baseless, they would have to unanimously determine it was baseless, and then vote whether to have, to determine if it was frivolous.

440
00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:45,700
 And is that second vote of determining whether it is frivolous or not frivolous immediately part of the... It's part of the panel. It's part of the panel's actions when they're making those determinations. Correct.

441
00:47:45,700 --> 00:47:58,700
 And for us at the moment... For us at the moment, the way it's worded in the ordinance is that you don't, the panel does not determine whether the complaint is actionable or baseless, they just say we need to have a hearing to determine if it's frivolous.

442
00:47:58,700 --> 00:48:12,700
 And so that's part of one of the issues is that it's very unclear to the complainant, or the respondent at that point, kind of, well what do I do now? Right, right. Okay.

443
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:22,700
 Madam Chair. Yes. So question, as it stands now, either the preliminary panel or the ethics board can move forward with this. Correct.

444
00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:34,700
 And that has been approved by the city council. So yeah, so currently, yes sir, currently, if we have a complaint, it could go to a preliminary panel and they could say, hey, we need to have a frivolity hearing.

445
00:48:34,700 --> 00:48:48,700
 It could also be determined to be actionable by a panel, go to a regular hearing, and the board of ethics at that point could say, no, we think this might be frivolous, and we need to, and then we either would have another hearing or we could try to talk about it.

446
00:48:48,700 --> 00:49:01,700
 It's not super clear, honestly, what we would do at that point, but they could, after it had been determined actionable, during the hearing, to determine if the complaint was a violation, determine no, it's frivolous.

447
00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:14,700
 I got that. So my next question to follow up then, the potential change, we need city council approval. Because it would not go in hand with the ordinance as it stands.

448
00:49:14,700 --> 00:49:20,700
 Okay, everything that we're talking about will ultimately, if you give direction, will require city council approval.

449
00:49:20,700 --> 00:49:24,700
 Thank you.

450
00:49:24,700 --> 00:49:43,700
 Okay, so for the first question, are we comfortable with the preliminary panel being able to begin a frivolous determination process, or do we want the whole board involved to be able to do that?

451
00:49:43,700 --> 00:49:51,700
 I'm personally comfortable with the panel making that determination.

452
00:49:51,700 --> 00:50:02,700
 Denton has kind of been to hell and back on all these frivolous hearings, and the last one or two we've had, in my opinion, should have never reached the level of the board.

453
00:50:02,700 --> 00:50:18,700
 And so whether or not the panel actually sends it to a frivolous hearing, I think the panel, if they've gone through training, they ought to be able to recognize a frivolous complaint on the basis of what's been submitted.

454
00:50:18,700 --> 00:50:32,700
 I would like to see the time spared that we've spent in some of these hearings on frivolous complaints.

455
00:50:32,700 --> 00:50:38,700
 It's not been a good experience. It's just kind of a learning curve that we go through.

456
00:50:38,700 --> 00:50:48,700
 This order to show cause medicine, is that a separate issue from here?

457
00:50:48,700 --> 00:51:02,700
 Essentially, the two cities that have really considered frivolous complaints at all use the order to show cause process, which is the formal name that they give it to, once they determine, hey, this seems to be frivolous,

458
00:51:02,700 --> 00:51:09,700
 they usually give the complainant an opportunity to say, no, it's not, and this is why.

459
00:51:09,700 --> 00:51:20,700
 And they do that by having a written response as well as then having a hearing, is how it works in their two processes.

460
00:51:20,700 --> 00:51:31,700
 Well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but this order to show cause, especially in these two cities, we have just allowed frivolous complainants to just walk free.

461
00:51:31,700 --> 00:51:39,700
 I mean, when it's over, but in these cities, a frivolous complaint is actually subject or can be subject to some pretty heavy fines.

462
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:46,700
 And so I think this order to show cause in these two cities is actually a separate matter.

463
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:54,700
 In other words, where a city or an ethics board would contact that complainant who has filed a frivolous complaint,

464
00:51:54,700 --> 00:52:06,700
 and that order to show cause says, now you need to show me why this complaint you filed should not be penalized in actual dollars.

465
00:52:06,700 --> 00:52:11,700
 In Dallas, they put a prohibition. We discussed this last meeting.

466
00:52:11,700 --> 00:52:17,700
 They put a prohibition on being able to submit complaints for people who have submitted frivolous complaints.

467
00:52:17,700 --> 00:52:27,700
 In San Antonio, it is associated with some fees. And it is associated with like a $500 fee and some other thing.

468
00:52:27,700 --> 00:52:31,700
 There are other money as well. There are penalties.

469
00:52:31,700 --> 00:52:41,700
 So until we imposed some actual penalty for filing a frivolous complaint, I don't see where this order to show cause really has much relevance.

470
00:52:41,700 --> 00:52:51,700
 Last meeting, I was given direction to add sanctions that would, similar to Dallas, would prohibit someone who would file a frivolous complaint

471
00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:59,700
 from resubmitting a complaint for a certain number of years. We haven't determined exactly what that looks like because we haven't reviewed staff language yet.

472
00:52:59,700 --> 00:53:05,700
 The board has given direction to add sanctions relevant specifically to frivolous complaints.

473
00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:09,700
 We're here based on what you're talking about is how we got here.

474
00:53:09,700 --> 00:53:14,700
 They just, we prioritized it that way at some point and that's why this is what's second.

475
00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:18,700
 Okay.

476
00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:23,700
 So coming back to it, you will not be forgotten.

477
00:53:23,700 --> 00:53:25,700
 So coming back to what now?

478
00:53:25,700 --> 00:53:30,700
 What you were just talking about, the fees in place and making sure the frivolous complaints don't become frequent.

479
00:53:30,700 --> 00:53:35,700
 That's our goal to set something in place to address that. Yes, sir.

480
00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:46,700
 If that is the case, then I don't think that we should look at this in a position of let the preliminary panel handle it because our time is so valuable.

481
00:53:46,700 --> 00:53:55,700
 If you're going to be punished for time and money, then I think we should keep the present position of the preliminary panel and the ethics board.

482
00:53:55,700 --> 00:54:01,700
 And if we have to go, because I've been at two of the frivolous complaints, one where they had their own attorney, why?

483
00:54:01,700 --> 00:54:08,700
 Because that is their day in court and that's the transparency that this ethics board shows.

484
00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:14,700
 And if it means we've got to spend another hour or two hours, well, that's why we signed up for this.

485
00:54:14,700 --> 00:54:34,700
 And I don't believe that if you're going to put that kind of justice or penalty on someone, just because we don't have the time, I think we should keep what we have in procedure present.

486
00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:41,700
 And if it is frivolous, we'll let them have their day in court. Then if they're found guilty or whatever, then they understand.

487
00:54:41,700 --> 00:54:51,700
 They may not want to go through that. So if we're going to go with punishment, then most definitely I want to keep it the way we've got it.

488
00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:59,700
 So I want to come back to the first item because I think what we're starting to talk about is getting lower in what Madison has prepared for us today.

489
00:54:59,700 --> 00:55:01,700
 I think it addresses your first topic.

490
00:55:01,700 --> 00:55:03,700
 No, I think it does. This does.

491
00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:17,700
 Go ahead, Madison. I'm sorry. What I've heard from at least two people is that we want the panel to be able to discuss a complaint, which they can currently do,

492
00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:29,700
 and then vote to have a frivolity hearing or basically order the complainant to say why is this not frivolous before we impose section.

493
00:55:29,700 --> 00:55:34,700
 Am I misdating what you two seem to have said?

494
00:55:34,700 --> 00:55:44,700
 I think they should have their appeal processed, and that would be that second frivolous with it being brought before.

495
00:55:44,700 --> 00:55:45,700
 The hearing with the board.

496
00:55:45,700 --> 00:55:47,700
 Before the board. Yes, I do.

497
00:55:47,700 --> 00:55:50,700
 Okay. And you seem to agree with what he was saying.

498
00:55:50,700 --> 00:56:00,700
 I think I misunderstood that he was saying preliminary panel could not call for frivolity if you go to the full board. So, yes.

499
00:56:00,700 --> 00:56:13,700
 My understanding is that the panel can say that we're moving this forward as a frivolous, but then the frivolity itself would have to be determined by the full board.

500
00:56:13,700 --> 00:56:14,700
 Yes.

501
00:56:14,700 --> 00:56:16,700
 That is what I heard.

502
00:56:16,700 --> 00:56:21,700
 If the complaint wants to go before the ethics board, though, you're going to eliminate that.

503
00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:23,700
 Say that again, please.

504
00:56:23,700 --> 00:56:34,700
 If you're just saying at that point, preliminary panels can have that ability, but then you're taking the right of the person to file the complaint from being able to have it go before the ethics board.

505
00:56:34,700 --> 00:56:38,700
 No, no. See, this is where I'm misunderstanding what I think you're saying.

506
00:56:38,700 --> 00:56:56,700
 So, the preliminary panel, I think from what we're trying to communicate, can say this is a frivolous complaint and then the ethics board meets with the respondent to decide that.

507
00:56:56,700 --> 00:57:00,700
 Well, that's the group and the Army Trend and Revenue. Give us the procedure how this works again.

508
00:57:00,700 --> 00:57:18,700
 So, the way that this general order to show cause process works is the ethics body, which would be the preliminary panel in this case, we're looking at the bottom figure, dismisses the complaint and issues an order to show cause to the complaint, the person who filed the complaint.

509
00:57:18,700 --> 00:57:40,700
 The complainant is then able to provide a written response and then they go to a hearing with the full board, the full ethics body and participate in that hearing like we would have a normal hearing and the whole body would then determine if it was frivolous and if so, if there should be sanctions associated with that.

510
00:57:40,700 --> 00:57:42,700
 That's the general procedure.

511
00:57:42,700 --> 00:57:43,700
 Yeah, we have curfew.

512
00:57:43,700 --> 00:57:46,700
 No. Well, sort of.

513
00:57:46,700 --> 00:57:48,700
 That's what I want to know. What do we have current?

514
00:57:48,700 --> 00:57:58,700
 Current is the top one. So, the preliminary panel just recommends to have a hearing, does not determine if the complaint is baseless or actionable.

515
00:57:58,700 --> 00:58:06,700
 Then the complainant and the respondent, they don't provide, they can provide evidence that has been presented at the hearing.

516
00:58:06,700 --> 00:58:15,700
 They both are able to do that and then it's happening similarly. They hold the frivolity hearing, they determine if it's frivolous and then they potentially issue sanctions.

517
00:58:15,700 --> 00:58:26,700
 So, I guess one of the big differences is the preliminary panel is currently not saying anything about the current complaint.

518
00:58:26,700 --> 00:58:43,700
 They're not saying it's actionable or baseless, whereas under a normal order to show cause process they would say it's baseless, which then kind of says to the respondent, the person who was named in the complaint, hey, I'm off the hook, kind of.

519
00:58:43,700 --> 00:58:48,700
 Right. They've already said what the person said I did, I didn't do.

520
00:58:48,700 --> 00:58:54,700
 Well, it's the grand jury of the legal process before it goes to court. Is that correct?

521
00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:56,700
 I don't know.

522
00:58:56,700 --> 00:58:58,700
 Mr. Taffer?

523
00:58:58,700 --> 00:59:16,700
 That's an analogy. I mean, that's what it sounds like. How I'm hearing it is this panel of a few of y'all gets to, yeah, they get to say whether or not it goes forward.

524
00:59:16,700 --> 00:59:23,700
 The complaint goes forward. But that doesn't eliminate the question of whether or not the complaint was frivolous. That's a separate question.

525
00:59:23,700 --> 00:59:43,700
 Correct. The panel can say, ultimately the three choices they would have under this order to show cause process is, A, it's actionable, yes. Go to the hearing, determine what the violation, you know, determine what the violations and sanctions for the respondent, the person named in the complaint is violating it should be.

526
00:59:43,700 --> 00:59:56,700
 Hey, no, it's baseless. What they're saying isn't actually a violation of the ordinance at all. And so we're not going to go to the full board. Or they can say, hey, this complaint is frivolous. We think it's frivolous.

527
00:59:56,700 --> 01:00:13,700
 We're going to dismiss it because it's not a violation of the ordinance on the respondent's part. It is in fact a violation of the ordinance on the complainant's part. And then we're going to have a hearing to address that issue with the full board.

528
01:00:13,700 --> 01:00:27,700
 That's very similar to how the National Association Realtors form their grievances. That's why I recognized it like I did. Thank you.

529
01:00:27,700 --> 01:00:36,700
 Okay, so I think we're clear on that now. What it is. And then moving forward, what we want to do about it.

530
01:00:36,700 --> 01:00:58,700
 The question is, do we want that process that's clear? Yeah. And because of the confusion right now of what the panel is able to do. So I think yes, we need that clarity in what the panel is able to do moving into the

531
01:00:58,700 --> 01:01:14,700
 I kind of lost the word that you just said, but issue order to show cause. To be able to issue order to show cause. Yes. So is this still informal or do we need to do a button on this?

532
01:01:14,700 --> 01:01:32,700
 I have a clear direction I think that they should be able to issue in order to show cause. The question is, under what circumstances? Do they need to, similar to Dallas, unanimously dismiss the complaint and prior to being able to issue that, should it be only the majority that dismisses it?

533
01:01:32,700 --> 01:01:48,700
 Do, and then our current, under our current ordinance, they don't have to determine that at all. They don't have to dismiss it at all. They can just say let's go forward. I think we found issues with that because it's not very clear to the respondent what's happening.

534
01:01:48,700 --> 01:01:59,700
 Yeah. I believe unanimous dismissal makes sense. I believe that that would be a good direction for us to go. I'm wondering if anybody else has any thoughts about that?

535
01:01:59,700 --> 01:02:09,700
 Would you please remind me we have three members on the panel? Yes.

536
01:02:09,700 --> 01:02:35,700
 So it would be unanimous dismissal and then questionably right now, if it's majority, technically it would shake out to two thirds vote to move to frivolity. In this direction that I'm speaking about. Does that make sense? So it must be dismissed and then voted to decide if it's frivolous by two of the three people.

537
01:02:35,700 --> 01:02:45,700
 Okay. So the dismissal is unanimous, but the vote to move it forward as frivolous would be two thirds.

538
01:02:45,700 --> 01:03:06,700
 Correct. Yes. I think in some ways it's addressing your concerns of time, right, because they've all decided if this isn't a violation by the respondent, but do we think the submitted complaint is grievously frivolous enough that we need to have a hearing to have sanctions?

539
01:03:06,700 --> 01:03:17,700
 And so just two thirds, majority or two thirds of the people need to agree yes, we think it's a violation, it's a grievous enough frivolous complaint to go to have that.

540
01:03:17,700 --> 01:03:34,700
 But if there's not a unanimous, then the last, the bottom two aren't moved. Correct. So if only two people think it should be just dismissed, then you can't go to a frivolous, you can't issue an order to show cause to determine if it's frivolous.

541
01:03:34,700 --> 01:03:50,700
 So there's another term that's being introduced here and I'm getting confused, I'm sorry. There's actionable. Yes. That action needs to be taken and it will go to the hearing.

542
01:03:50,700 --> 01:04:08,700
 That it's baseless and no action. It's baseless because it really isn't an ethical violation. And then there's frivolous and then we've introduced the term dismissal.

543
01:04:08,700 --> 01:04:24,700
 So yeah, so if it's determined to be baseless, it is considered to be dismissed. It's considered to be dismissed. So they're using it interchangeably and I apologize. You would really have to determine that it was baseless.

544
01:04:24,700 --> 01:04:40,700
 It would have to unanimously be a baseless, determined to be baseless by the preliminary panel. Then you could determine, then you could issue the order to show cause that it's not frivolous. I apologize. The Dallas ordinance uses a little bit different language.

545
01:04:40,700 --> 01:04:58,700
 Okay, thank you. Okay, so direction. Do we like the unanimous dismissal? I think the first question, Madam Chair, is do we want to move there or keep with what we have existing?

546
01:04:58,700 --> 01:05:07,700
 That's true, but I thought I heard direction to move forward with the order to show cause. I thought so too.

547
01:05:07,700 --> 01:05:13,700
 Then I think we ought to show hands, Madam Chair, so we can get some direction for you to help Madison.

548
01:05:13,700 --> 01:05:17,700
 Okay. So what you're saying is you want to just leave it exactly as it is right now?

549
01:05:17,700 --> 01:05:23,700
 Go to that, if you don't mind, go to that there. The current versus the general order, which would be the new one.

550
01:05:23,700 --> 01:05:35,700
 Okay. So where the preliminary panel cannot determine whether or not it's actionable or baseless, correct?

551
01:05:35,700 --> 01:05:41,700
 The preliminary panel can determine that. They can. That's why they're meeting. That's the purpose of the preliminary panel.

552
01:05:41,700 --> 01:05:47,700
 Okay, what did you say earlier that they can't do? Issue the order to show cause. They can issue an order to show cause.

553
01:05:47,700 --> 01:05:53,700
 Instead, what they do is don't make any sort of determination and recommend that the ethics board deal with it.

554
01:05:53,700 --> 01:06:07,700
 Got it. Thank you. Okay. So leave it as it is or move to the next is what we're trying to decide. So who wants it to stay as is? Okay. And who wants it to move to the new procedure?

555
01:06:07,700 --> 01:06:12,700
 Can you guys explain what the concern is? I guess I'm not following.

556
01:06:12,700 --> 01:06:33,700
 Cause from what I understand, the point of this is so that there's clear feedback to the respondent that is already been determined as baseless and that there will then be a frivolity hearing.

557
01:06:33,700 --> 01:06:49,700
 The current process, if the panel, the three-person panel determines the complaint is baseless and that there should be a frivolity hearing, the respondent does not give that information. Is that correct?

558
01:06:49,700 --> 01:07:01,700
 They would receive notification that the complaint has been determined to be baseless. And I have a whole other slide to talk about how the respondent is involved if they determine to go to issue an order to show cause.

559
01:07:01,700 --> 01:07:15,700
 So it's an education process for the respondent. What you're saying that is there a miscommunication to the respondent in from the slide that you have for them?

560
01:07:15,700 --> 01:07:24,700
 I'm confused by your question. You said that the respondent's were, lack of communication were confused. Is that right?

561
01:07:24,700 --> 01:07:31,700
 Yes, in previous, about what they needed to prepare for if it was going to be determined it was frivolous.

562
01:07:31,700 --> 01:07:35,700
 And you have a slide for them that helps them do that?

563
01:07:35,700 --> 01:07:42,700
 I have a slide for us to discuss how the respondent would be involved if they issued an order to show cause, basically.

564
01:07:42,700 --> 01:08:08,700
 I think we're losing track of the fact that if we're changing to the general order to show cause process, the biggest difference is that currently the panel cannot make a determination whether something is frivolous or not when they're dismissing or finding a complaint to be baseless.

565
01:08:08,700 --> 01:08:26,700
 What we're looking to add is if indeed the panel says this is a baseless complaint and we're dismissing it, at the same time they can trigger now this issue order to show cause, which then starts the frivolity hearing.

566
01:08:26,700 --> 01:08:50,700
 We're creating a whole new process that the complainant would go through if the panel believed they submitted a frivolous complaint, instead of basically having the same ethics complaint process to where we're still, even though we ultimately ended up with a frivolous determination, that's still considered ethics complaint 22001.

567
01:08:50,700 --> 01:09:04,700
 Whereas if the panel had been able to say, no, this is baseless and dismiss it, under this new process we would say, okay, that's done, now we're in this new process, so it would be separate, totally separate.

568
01:09:04,700 --> 01:09:06,700
 It would just take it onto a different track, right?

569
01:09:06,700 --> 01:09:07,700
 Correct.

570
01:09:07,700 --> 01:09:14,700
 Instead of moving it forward as an ethics complaint, it has now moved forward as a further complaint to show cause.

571
01:09:14,700 --> 01:09:15,700
 It cleans it up.

572
01:09:15,700 --> 01:09:17,700
 It cleans it up, yeah.

573
01:09:17,700 --> 01:09:27,700
 I'll just add, from the last one that we reviewed, part of my concern was the timing of the complaint.

574
01:09:27,700 --> 01:09:50,700
 It was right before an election, and we dragged out a process, because it takes time, based on our, based on the process, how many days people have to respond, when we get a hearing schedule, all those things, we drag out a process longer, and now we have articles in the paper that are potentially affecting votes in an election.

575
01:09:50,700 --> 01:10:01,700
 What I think the general order to show cause allows us to do is the panel, the three-person panel, would dismiss the complaint.

576
01:10:01,700 --> 01:10:09,700
 It would essentially take out several days in the process of there being an open ethics complaint against a candidate.

577
01:10:09,700 --> 01:10:29,700
 I mean, that's one example of where this was a huge concern, and I guess there's already been discussion about what to do after frivolity is determined, but part of all of that discussion around that hearing was we can't really do anything.

578
01:10:29,700 --> 01:10:45,700
 I mean, I think it was a unanimous vote that that complaint was frivolous, and afterwards, everyone kind of threw their hands up and said, well, we can write a letter and say this, but all the damage had already been done.

579
01:10:45,700 --> 01:10:56,700
 And if we move to this newer process, we can try and limit some of that by shrinking the timeline for there to be an open ethics complaint against a candidate.

580
01:10:56,700 --> 01:11:05,700
 That's where I would see that the new process would be much better than what we have tried to do before.

581
01:11:05,700 --> 01:11:12,700
 If I'm missing something, I know David and Robbie both were against it.

582
01:11:12,700 --> 01:11:24,700
 I guess I don't see how the newer process is a better approach.

583
01:11:24,700 --> 01:11:28,700
 Members, did you want to say something?

584
01:11:28,700 --> 01:11:40,700
 I'm missing a lot of stuff here, so I'm not that unhappy with the process as it is now.

585
01:11:40,700 --> 01:12:01,700
 I think what makes a difference to me was having the explanation that it moves it out of the initial complaint onto a different number, different tracking system, and it shortens the -- as long as we're dealing with everything else, that complaint is still open.

586
01:12:01,700 --> 01:12:10,700
 It's not completely resolved. And so this resolves the complaint, finishes it, and moves onto the determination of whether or not it was fair work.

587
01:12:10,700 --> 01:12:16,700
 And I support that.

588
01:12:16,700 --> 01:12:30,700
 Well, just from a history standpoint, if we just remember what happened just a few months ago, there was a hearing that went all the way through the formal hearing, and then at the very end,

589
01:12:30,700 --> 01:12:39,700
 it was almost dismissed until one board member said -- it was backed up all the way through a frivolous hearing from that point.

590
01:12:39,700 --> 01:12:56,700
 So there was a lot of time invested there that I think probably could have been avoided if someone could have recognized that frivolous nature early on from the panel standpoint.

591
01:12:56,700 --> 01:13:06,700
 The panel -- in that instance, the panel recommended that it was to go -- to have a hearing to determine if it was frivolous.

592
01:13:06,700 --> 01:13:13,700
 They just didn't -- they just couldn't say that the complaint was baseless, because it's not laid out that way in our ordinance.

593
01:13:13,700 --> 01:13:28,700
 Ultimately, what this would do would just allow them to say -- if we had went through the whole situation, they'd be able to say, yes, this is a baseless complaint. We're going to dismiss this, and we're going to open a new issue on the complainant.

594
01:13:28,700 --> 01:13:34,700
 And we would have still gone through that exact same process with them to have that frivolous hearing.

595
01:13:34,700 --> 01:13:43,700
 The usual determinant between baseless or frivolous is whether or not it was filed in bad faith or if it's harassment.

596
01:13:43,700 --> 01:14:04,700
 And if you have to get through the initial complaint to actually arrive at that bad faith or harassment standpoint, then I don't know when that reveals itself in the process. I'm not sure.

597
01:14:04,700 --> 01:14:33,700
 I would actually -- I think what -- with you making that point, I think it is actually very clear. I think that this new process could actually save exactly the time that you -- and investment that you said, because it just puts the complaint -- it finishes the complaint and then opens up another track of now we're determining whether it's frivolous or not frivolous, rather first determining that it is actually baseless and then moving forward.

598
01:14:33,700 --> 01:14:47,700
 And that's what happened last time, because they got to the end of the hearing, and it was determined that not only is this baseless, but it was filed in bad faith and harassment, which backed it up into the frivolous hearing.

599
01:14:47,700 --> 01:15:12,700
 The complaint is about the actions of the city official. And by moving to the general -- to the order to show cause, that moves it to the actions of the complaint. And I really like that clear line, moving from the actions of one person to the actions of the other.

600
01:15:12,700 --> 01:15:17,700
 And that's done at the preliminary hearing.

601
01:15:17,700 --> 01:15:43,700
 Okay. So.

602
01:15:43,700 --> 01:15:53,700
 The first step there that I can see could be an issue, but essentially that the complaint that was submitted is then dismissed.

603
01:15:53,700 --> 01:16:01,700
 There's like a step in there where they have to say it's baseless or whatever, but it's dismissed, it's closed, and then they open the new process.

604
01:16:01,700 --> 01:16:11,700
 That vote to close it, you want that to have to be unanimous in order to open the new process.

605
01:16:11,700 --> 01:16:16,700
 That's the majority.

606
01:16:16,700 --> 01:16:20,700
 Majority.

607
01:16:20,700 --> 01:16:23,700
 Any other thoughts?

608
01:16:23,700 --> 01:16:29,700
 I think unanimous is a very quiet order.

609
01:16:29,700 --> 01:16:38,700
 I think I would support a majority.

610
01:16:38,700 --> 01:16:48,700
 I would think that if it was frivolous, the likelihood that all three people would unanimously find it baseless would probably be pretty good.

611
01:16:48,700 --> 01:16:59,700
 But if that's the consensus to go with majority, we can make that motion or that suggestion.

612
01:16:59,700 --> 01:17:06,700
 Majority.

613
01:17:06,700 --> 01:17:10,700
 So that would be the first vote that they would take to close the complaint.

614
01:17:10,700 --> 01:17:11,700
 To decide that it's baseless.

615
01:17:11,700 --> 01:17:15,700
 And then they would have to have a second vote to issue the order to show cause.

616
01:17:15,700 --> 01:17:16,700
 Yes.

617
01:17:16,700 --> 01:17:19,700
 And then would you want that to be a majority?

618
01:17:19,700 --> 01:17:21,700
 That's what everybody else basically is.

619
01:17:21,700 --> 01:17:25,700
 Technically, actually, Dallas and San Antonio are saying two thirds, which is higher than the majority.

620
01:17:25,700 --> 01:17:28,700
 But there's only three people at the moment.

621
01:17:28,700 --> 01:17:30,700
 So it's the same thing.

622
01:17:30,700 --> 01:17:35,700
 They might have a larger panel, so I don't know.

623
01:17:35,700 --> 01:17:41,700
 So, yeah, if we were to change the language, it would virtually remain the same.

624
01:17:41,700 --> 01:17:44,700
 So do we want to stick with simple majority?

625
01:17:44,700 --> 01:17:45,700
 Yeah.

626
01:17:45,700 --> 01:17:46,700
 Yes?

627
01:17:46,700 --> 01:17:47,700
 Yes.

628
01:17:47,700 --> 01:17:53,700
 Okay.

629
01:17:53,700 --> 01:17:54,700
 Okay.

630
01:17:54,700 --> 01:17:56,700
 Let's not worry about that last vote.

631
01:17:56,700 --> 01:17:57,700
 Okay.

632
01:17:57,700 --> 01:18:04,700
 At this point, you've issued the order to show cause, and you've told the respondent that everybody does that.

633
01:18:04,700 --> 01:18:07,700
 They're not just going to say it's dismissed, and then also this other process.

634
01:18:07,700 --> 01:18:10,700
 They say the complaint is closed.

635
01:18:10,700 --> 01:18:14,700
 Also, we've issued an order to show cause to the complainant, basically.

636
01:18:14,700 --> 01:18:16,700
 That's how the process works.

637
01:18:16,700 --> 01:18:24,700
 The question is then, the Dallas ordinance allows the respondent to say, hey, don't worry about it.

638
01:18:24,700 --> 01:18:26,700
 Don't do that.

639
01:18:26,700 --> 01:18:30,700
 Stop the process there.

640
01:18:30,700 --> 01:18:32,700
 So that's one point for direction.

641
01:18:32,700 --> 01:18:39,700
 Do you want the respondent to be able to say, hey, don't waste your time?

642
01:18:39,700 --> 01:18:43,700
 I don't like that idea.

643
01:18:43,700 --> 01:18:47,700
 But I'm not sure what everybody else is thinking.

644
01:18:47,700 --> 01:18:55,700
 I think if the respondent filed a frivolous complaint, that it should be pursued further than just, oh, my bad.

645
01:18:55,700 --> 01:18:56,700
 Never mind.

646
01:18:56,700 --> 01:18:58,700
 This is the respondent.

647
01:18:58,700 --> 01:19:01,700
 So this is not the person who we issued the order to.

648
01:19:01,700 --> 01:19:05,700
 This is the person who they theoretically submitted a complaint against.

649
01:19:05,700 --> 01:19:06,700
 I'm so sorry.

650
01:19:06,700 --> 01:19:07,700
 No, it's all right.

651
01:19:07,700 --> 01:19:10,700
 I got confused the first time I read it, too.

652
01:19:10,700 --> 01:19:23,700
 So basically, the person who we closed their complaint, who was accused of a violation, can they be like, hey, don't worry about what that guy said about me?

653
01:19:23,700 --> 01:19:32,700
 I'm inclined to say no, because they're out of the process now.

654
01:19:32,700 --> 01:19:34,700
 I would agree.

655
01:19:34,700 --> 01:19:35,700
 I would agree.

656
01:19:35,700 --> 01:19:39,700
 I don't know why that would occur.

657
01:19:39,700 --> 01:19:46,700
 I don't understand why you wouldn't want to allow that to happen.

658
01:19:46,700 --> 01:19:50,700
 It must be a conflict of interest.

659
01:19:50,700 --> 01:19:56,700
 I would say no.

660
01:19:56,700 --> 01:19:58,700
 OK, so we're hearing direction.

661
01:19:58,700 --> 01:20:02,700
 No, don't let the respondent be able to stop the order to show cause process.

662
01:20:02,700 --> 01:20:04,700
 Keep it like we have it.

663
01:20:04,700 --> 01:20:05,700
 Correct.

664
01:20:05,700 --> 01:20:21,700
 And then so then the second two bullets are about, which I think I understand what Deb was saying, should the respondent be able to provide a written response to the order to show cause and/or participate in the frivolous hearing?

665
01:20:21,700 --> 01:20:30,700
 So should they be able to provide evidence, just like physical evidence, say, hey, as you're going to have this hearing, look at this?

666
01:20:30,700 --> 01:20:35,700
 And just that or nothing.

667
01:20:35,700 --> 01:20:36,700
 There's nothing.

668
01:20:36,700 --> 01:20:49,700
 Provide a written response that could include documents or whatever that the board could consider at the hearing or do that and participate in a hearing, like we had in our last hearing.

669
01:20:49,700 --> 01:20:58,700
 So I'm curious, pardon me, but so would this be new evidence that we're looking at then?

670
01:20:58,700 --> 01:21:05,700
 The respondent does not submit evidence in our current process prior to the preliminary hearing, preliminary panel.

671
01:21:05,700 --> 01:21:07,700
 So it would be it would be new.

672
01:21:07,700 --> 01:21:14,700
 It would be what they are presenting as, hey, I agree with you that it's frivolous and hearing wise, essentially.

673
01:21:14,700 --> 01:21:19,700
 So my thought on this is that it would be appropriate to have written response.

674
01:21:19,700 --> 01:21:23,700
 I'm unsure about whether or not they should be able to participate in the hearing.

675
01:21:23,700 --> 01:21:32,700
 I can see cause for either side from the respondent, but I do feel like a written response should be added from the respondent, Andrea.

676
01:21:32,700 --> 01:21:33,700
 I would agree.

677
01:21:33,700 --> 01:21:38,700
 I think I think the respondent should absolutely have the right for written response.

678
01:21:38,700 --> 01:21:40,700
 That would be then taken into evidence.

679
01:21:40,700 --> 01:21:44,700
 It would become part of the frivolous hearings.

680
01:21:44,700 --> 01:21:53,700
 But I also think that if if you have a complaint against yourself, I think that you should have the right to defend yourself and participate in the hearing.

681
01:21:53,700 --> 01:21:58,700
 I disagree because at this point they're no longer a part of it.

682
01:21:58,700 --> 01:22:07,700
 It's about it's about whether or not the complaint is frivolous and the panel has already decided that it's baseless.

683
01:22:07,700 --> 01:22:14,700
 OK, so, you know, yes, we agree this is not an ethics violation.

684
01:22:14,700 --> 01:22:16,700
 And this complaint is gone.

685
01:22:16,700 --> 01:22:17,700
 Done.

686
01:22:17,700 --> 01:22:20,700
 This is about what this other person has done.

687
01:22:20,700 --> 01:22:27,700
 And so I think that having the respondent completely out of the process would be more appropriate.

688
01:22:27,700 --> 01:22:29,700
 So completely no written response.

689
01:22:29,700 --> 01:22:30,700
 No.

690
01:22:30,700 --> 01:22:31,700
 Option either.

691
01:22:31,700 --> 01:22:32,700
 It's done.

692
01:22:32,700 --> 01:22:34,700
 The complaint was baseless.

693
01:22:34,700 --> 01:22:40,700
 Let's move on to what this person has with this complaint.

694
01:22:40,700 --> 01:22:41,700
 Yes.

695
01:22:41,700 --> 01:22:54,700
 Do you think that the respondent may have maybe in a in a in a unique situation to kind of like provide information about the motivation that make it frivolous?

696
01:22:54,700 --> 01:22:55,700
 No.

697
01:22:55,700 --> 01:22:57,700
 No.

698
01:22:57,700 --> 01:23:00,700
 Do you think it's that apparent at that point?

699
01:23:00,700 --> 01:23:04,700
 I think that it's about the complaint and their actions.

700
01:23:04,700 --> 01:23:13,700
 And if you're bringing the respondent in, might as well just go into the same process that continue the same process.

701
01:23:13,700 --> 01:23:16,700
 We've already said the complaint is baseless.

702
01:23:16,700 --> 01:23:18,700
 We're done with you.

703
01:23:18,700 --> 01:23:22,700
 Now let's look at the frivolity of the complaint.

704
01:23:22,700 --> 01:23:33,700
 No, I think I agree with Andrea that they may have a unique perspective on why the complaint would be frivolous, but having them present at the hearing, I don't know that would be necessary.

705
01:23:33,700 --> 01:23:43,700
 But being able to provide some type of evidence in a written response or a statement of some kind could be helpful to the hearing without them necessarily being present.

706
01:23:43,700 --> 01:23:52,700
 I don't have it at the preliminary hearing to determine whether or not it's baseless.

707
01:23:52,700 --> 01:23:53,700
 You've eliminated your streamline.

708
01:23:53,700 --> 01:23:54,700
 Exactly.

709
01:23:54,700 --> 01:23:56,700
 We're back to the existing.

710
01:23:56,700 --> 01:23:58,700
 Okay.

711
01:23:58,700 --> 01:24:05,700
 Which I liked, by the way, but to understand that is true.

712
01:24:05,700 --> 01:24:09,700
 Help me understand that.

713
01:24:09,700 --> 01:24:17,700
 If I understand you correctly, that means that the respondent would have the opportunity to provide evidence to the panel.

714
01:24:17,700 --> 01:24:20,700
 No, the respondent does not currently have an opportunity.

715
01:24:20,700 --> 01:24:21,700
 They're valid.

716
01:24:21,700 --> 01:24:26,700
 No, to the panel when the first determination made originally.

717
01:24:26,700 --> 01:24:27,700
 There is not.

718
01:24:27,700 --> 01:24:28,700
 There is not.

719
01:24:28,700 --> 01:24:32,700
 Yes, the panel only considers the complaint, the submitted complaint.

720
01:24:32,700 --> 01:24:44,700
 Which means if that is the case, then the respondent is, like if something is considered to be baseless, the respondent is completely left out of the process.

721
01:24:44,700 --> 01:24:46,700
 Correct.

722
01:24:46,700 --> 01:24:54,700
 I find that hard.

723
01:24:54,700 --> 01:25:04,700
 I mean, in looking at the code, there's -- in making our determination for validity, we're supposed to consider certain factors.

724
01:25:04,700 --> 01:25:12,700
 One of those is existence and nature of any relationship between the respondent and complainant before the complaint was filed.

725
01:25:12,700 --> 01:25:20,700
 If we don't have that information for both the respondent and the complainant, then I'm not sure how we can consider that item.

726
01:25:20,700 --> 01:25:26,700
 So at a minimum, they should be able to provide a written response.

727
01:25:26,700 --> 01:25:39,700
 I mean, there would be no way for us as a board reviewing that to know about the existence of some prior relationship before the complaint was filed.

728
01:25:39,700 --> 01:25:51,700
 So I mean, if we don't allow the respondent to provide that information, then we're relying only on the complainant, who we're already evaluating their complaint for validity.

729
01:25:51,700 --> 01:25:59,700
 So I don't think that we can leave them out of that process.

730
01:25:59,700 --> 01:26:09,700
 It's hard to imagine not having a respondent involved in any way in that process.

731
01:26:09,700 --> 01:26:22,700
 So are you saying that they should be able to, in the process, do all of these or some of these, provide a written response, participate in the hearing?

732
01:26:22,700 --> 01:26:30,700
 Currently, I have three or four provide a written response that would be presented at the hearing but not by the respondent.

733
01:26:30,700 --> 01:26:40,700
 And then that's really all I've got. One against that, you against no involvement, correct?

734
01:26:40,700 --> 01:26:57,700
 So to get to the issue of a relationship, would the written response be in the form of, could you please answer these questions and ask specific questions that are related to the language of the ordinance?

735
01:26:57,700 --> 01:27:05,700
 We could certainly do something like that if that's the way the board wishes.

736
01:27:05,700 --> 01:27:14,700
 I think right now we're just trying to decide whether or not they can have a written response. We can decide what that might look like later.

737
01:27:14,700 --> 01:27:28,700
 But yeah, we have three and one and three unvoiced. So the rest of y'all who maybe haven't said anything, do you have a strong opinion in one way or another?

738
01:27:28,700 --> 01:27:38,700
 I agree that written response should be allowed. I question the need for participation.

739
01:27:38,700 --> 01:27:59,700
 Okay. Thank you. David. Say that again. I agree that written response options should be provided but not participation in the hearing.

740
01:27:59,700 --> 01:28:13,700
 That is for yes, written response. Okay. Any other discussion on that? No? Okay. Yeah. We're providing direction on written response, right?

741
01:28:13,700 --> 01:28:32,700
 Okay. And anybody strongly feel that we should participate in the hearing? I'm hearing a lot of no for that one. So I think we're wanting to change that to not allowed. Yeah. Dustin, you're not sure?

742
01:28:32,700 --> 01:28:49,700
 I don't know. I think it's adequate to allow them to provide a written response and not allow them to participate through all of the hearing. I think written response is enough.

743
01:28:49,700 --> 01:29:11,700
 I believe I have four for not allowing them to participate in the hearing. The next one is a whole different topic but I don't believe it needs to be discussed today if you do not want it to be.

744
01:29:11,700 --> 01:29:27,700
 I don't know if you're saying 730 is ready to go home. Or we can do it if you would like to. No. You want to move forward with this? No. I would like to pause for tonight. Okay.

745
01:29:27,700 --> 01:29:38,700
 So would that be exhibit two we'd be stopping at, I'm not sure? We would be stopping at, it's not the exhibits. I think the exhibits are to help with, excuse me?

746
01:29:38,700 --> 01:29:49,700
 The item D I believe. So just D. We haven't gotten there yet. Right. So we've covered A, B, C, and then D is just the prioritization of future meeting items that I don't believe needs to be.

747
01:29:49,700 --> 01:30:08,700
 No. No. I do think the thing that we need to just be sure about is that we are meeting in November 7th. Yes. Let me just skip to this page. Yeah. Yes. Next meeting is November 7th. Same time, 6 o'clock, 6 o'clock.

748
01:30:08,700 --> 01:30:20,700
 And then. Yep. Yep. It's 730 p.m. and this meeting is adjourned. The meeting of board of ethics is adjourned.