Jun 13, 2022 Historic Landmark Commission on 2022-06-13 5:30 PM

Okay noting the time and noting the presence of a quorum I want to thank everybody for coming tonight. Commissioners, guests, let's start with the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag and then followed by the Texas Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. On the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to the Texas, one state, under God, one indivisible. Thank you. Okay. First item on our agenda for tonight, HLC 22-067, is consider approval of the May 9th minute. I believe those were emailed to everyone, made available. Any corrections, comments, or a motion to accept? A motion to accept. I second. We have a motion to second. All those in favor raise your right hand. Item 2 is COA 22-0009, hold a public meeting and consider an application for certificate of appropriateness in accordance with section 2.9.2 of the Dent Development Code to add a balcony access and railing at 207 Pearl Street, a local historic landmark property and recorded historic Texas landmark within the Oak History Historic District. The site is located on the south side of Pearl Street between Deadman and Carroll Boulevard. I will turn it over to Ms. Robertson. I think it's 607 instead of 207. Oh, it is. Pardon me. 607 Pearl Street. Thank you, Chair. So we are looking at 607 Pearl Street, which is for alchemy. So this is located on the south side of Pearl Street between Denton Street and Carroll Boulevard. The owners are David and Catherine McRae, and the construction date is circa 1915. It is also known as the Simon's Maxwell House, so it's located here in this red box. It was constructed for James Simmons and Susan Greig. The architectural style is arts and crafts mission style. The defining features are mission style parapet, a leaded glass windows, and stucco walls. It is a local historic landmark, as the Chair mentioned, and recorded Texas historic landmark. So the request is for a balcony access and railing. The location is located on the east side of the property, as you can see here on the screen, set back from the front main facade, which is considered this facade right here. The railing would be visible from Pearl Street, but with the balcony access, it would not be visible from Pearl Street due to that railing being installed. So these are the current conditions. This is at the westbound lane on Pearl Street, so you're moving west. So you can kind of see the balcony would be here, directly straight on, and then that view from the southeast. And then this is the eastbound lane, very similar, just a little bit closer to the property. That view from the southwest, the view from the south, and then views from the southeast as well. So this is the proposed elevation, so we're concentrating on focusing on this side of the property of that east side. The materials are proposed to be concrete, as well as that light tan paint color to match the existing facade, so as you can see here. Looking at the architectural drawings, this is the proposed railing design, so we're focusing on this section above the red line. They would be installing a new floating deck on that roof in the proposed railing, and so between that new floating deck and that proposed railing would be approximately three feet to bring it up to code, so they can use it as a balcony. This is the previous request from July 13th of 2020. The main discussion from HLC was concerned for the design of the black railing. It wasn't as considerate to the architectural design at the time, and that kind of seemed to be the main concern of HLC at that time, was mainly the design and wanting to see more options. So Texas Historical Commission has reviewed this scope of work. The letter is dated October 22nd, 2020. The recommendations from the Texas Historical Commission was carefully removing the least amount of historic material possible along with the historic window, so salvaging and storing that for potential reuse in the future. As using user railing, that means the standards for rehabilitation number three and number nine. So this is what staff considered when they were doing the review, and if you all looked at your packet, you know that's focusing on changes that create a false sense of historical development as well as differentiating new work from the old. Basically from the THC, they did determine that it meets the Secretary of Interior's standards for rehabilitation and waived the remainder of the review for this project. So staff's analysis did focus on the standards for rehabilitation, focusing on number three, five, nine, and ten, which is number three is each property will be recognized as a physical record of its time, place, and use. Five is distinctive materials, features, finishes, and construction techniques that characterize a property will be preserved, and then lastly that number nine, which I discussed, as well as number ten, which discusses new additions and adjacent or related new construction will be undertaken in a manner that it can be removed in the future if necessary. Staff also looked at Denton Development Code section 4.9.4C, which specifies architectural requirements for the Oak Hickory Historic District, and this focused specifically on architectural detail, additions, facade materials, front entrances, and porches. So it's a long recommendation, but staff recommends approval subject to conditions of the Certificate of Appropriate Request to add balcony access and railing to the second floor flat roof balcony area at 607 Pearl Street. As a proposed project meets the Secretary of Interior's standards for rehabilitation in section 4.9.4C of the Denton Development Code, staff is requesting that a structural engineering report be provided during the permitting process to confirm that the existing parapet can support the weight of the proposed cement railing, and if removed in the future, the essential form and integrity of the historic property is unimpaired, according to that number 10 of the Secretary of Interior's standards for rehabilitation. If the engineering report determines that the existing parapet cannot support the proposed cement railing and/or be removed in a manner that retains the essential form and integrity of the historic property, staff is recommending that another Certificate of Appropriateness review do take place for a new proposed railing design before permitting is issued. Any questions? And we do have McCrase here as well, if you have any questions for them. Just follow us up on the floor. Go ahead. Is the city going to be providing the engineering report, or are we relying on the homeowners to... It would be the homeowners to provide that to the city. And when you talked about prior to permitting, you mean before they go to P&Z for their actual permit, right? It would be before they, so if it if it was approved tonight, then they would have to go to building permits and get a building permit to add the railing, and that's where this would take place. Do we know if the building permit would look into the structural integrity of that balcony to make sure that it would meet that? We're wondering if we're just double-diving and doing the same work twice, or forcing, and at an expense it's not necessary? So they would be requiring that a structural report do take place. I did speak to them prior to making that recommendation, just to make sure. And they don't need that before we give approval. They will need it down the road. Yes, correct. Okay, any other questions? I want to know when there's a party they're going to advise. No kidding. I'll make a motion to approve as presented by staff CLA 22-0009. I'll second. Okay, we have a motion and a second. You open it for discussion. By the way, I think the homeowners are here if you have questions for them. I think it's great. Yeah. Any other discussion amongst the commissioners? We have a motion and a second. Let's vote then. All in favor, please raise your right hand. Passes unanimously. So, anyway, thank you guys. I feel sorry to waste your time to come down for seven and a half minutes, but this one is cleaned up. Oh yeah, you are. But thank you for coming because it's nice for us when we're doing our job. It's real people and real homes and it's kind of fun. And we'd love, when you finish, send email a picture back just because we like to see it sometimes. Thank you. Thank you so much. Does it have to be an agenda item? How does that work? No. And you're welcome to stay. We have some notice. Thank you. Okay, next on our agenda is HLC 22-0004. It says, "Hold a public meeting to discuss the structural integrity of 2011 West Oak Street within the West Oak Historic District. The site is located on the south side of West Oak Street between Miller and North Texas Boulevard. And I believe the homeowner, Mr. DeCivito, is going to make or address the commission." Is that correct? Yes. So the floor is here, sir. Well, I didn't know I was going to address the commission, but I don't mind. My home there on Oak Street is in bad shape and it's, do I need to stand up and come to you? Or can I do this right here? Oh, no, you. Well, anywhere you're most comfortable. Yeah, so you can come up to the table. The house has windows that are starting to rot in the front of the home. Three front windows in the front. We have found some people that would work with us to try to fix the windows. Spoke with this person. We came in and met with Ms. Robinson, and he's drawn up a quote to make the repairs on the windows. Okay. Can I pass this around to you? Sure. Thank you. So there were windows in there, and talking to the person, Mr. DeVry, he's recommending that I take these windows out, replace them with vinyl windows, and really here to see what you guys recommend as far as replacing or repairing. Well, okay. I tell you what, I believe this is a less formal environment. Okay, so why don't we just throw it on the floor and we'll ask questions and you sort of tell us, what are you planning to do? We're curious about what the house is going to do, and our number one objective is to not see it just sit and decline. Yes. That we at least freeze it so that it's in its current or better, right? I mean. Well, the plan, to be honest with you, was to save it for my son here. Okay. And not rent it out. I felt like renters would tear it up, and over the last couple years or so, just sitting, it has done that. So we really would like to fix it and get it back up and running like it used to be for us. It used to be for my son to live in when he graduates from college. When is that going to be around? I'm projected to graduate next fall. Not this upcoming fall, but fall after. So is there a financial problem here? No, the problem is finding someone to do it and do it the way it should be has been the problem. We've done a number of things that we've repaired the shutters, but we just can't do the windows by ourselves. So this is turning into a collaborative effort with you guys historic, the two of us, and then the gentleman there going to repair it. So my question, I have a question for just the three windows, and you're not going to replace anymore. So just three, the three that the rest, the rest need attention. I say love. It just needs some love, but the three up front. It's more than that. Well, why not replace those with more wooden windows? Well, I understand the energy efficiency would be not. It has to meet the energy standards. I don't know. Is that what the contractor recommended? How would the energy has to do with the glass? But I don't know that vinyl is any different from wood than for energy. I mean, for our standards, it's not. Yeah, but vinyl is going to be a much better insulator than wood or a little bit. Certainly, it's probably the worst, but yeah, I think there may be some issues with that. I guess I have a procedural question. We're not considering a shift of appropriateness for what kind of windows right now, correct? Correct. Correct. So we're just talking about the structural integrity of the property and kind of, you know, talking to the homeowner about the situation and how it got to where it was and if it is still structurally sound and then kind of moving from there and giving them direction as to whether or not you determine if it's structurally sound or not. Because if I guess if it's a 90. Yeah, so if there's a determination that it's structurally unsound, it starts a 90 day clock for the repairs to be done. So basically, it kind of tells the homeowner that you all are interested in the repairs being done sooner rather than later to protect further damage to the home. If you don't make that finding, they can still come back with a COA, you know, whenever they are able to and come do the project in the future. But this is more just we're talking about it. I think we had some questions maybe about financial considerations or if we needed to get any direction from City Council as well. So that's kind of why I ended up on y'all's schedule tonight. But in determination of making the if you make a finding that it is structurally unsound, all that really does is kick off that 90 day clock to get the repairs done. Do we have any reason to believe it's structurally unsound? Do we have a report or anything that would indicate that? So that was supposed to be provided by the applicant as part of the 10 day notice. That was provided saying, you know, please provide evidence as to being structurally sound. So it's more of a discussion. I don't know if they have any of that paperwork, obviously. But the reason that this was brought to the attention of Agile C in the first place is that these windows have been open air and there has been access to, you know, rain, who knows what else is coming in. But obviously from code enforcement's perspective, they can't go inside the property. They just are being told from what's going on on the outside of the property. I recall last time there was an issue, like there was boards over it to keep the rain out. There are. Yeah. So there's a board in the front. And then there's this board on the side. It just opened. That one there just. This one? Yes ma'am. What do you mean? Well, just the glass just fell out. It came out. So it's open there. But that just happened. Before I was told to board those things up. And so I went ahead and did that. I don't like the way it looks, but I needed to board it up until I could get someone to repair it. I now have someone to repair it. And so really, as far as structure, I thought you were talking about the window being, but the building itself is fine. The windows are. But my concern is before we order windows, what type of windows would you guys approve? So, Cameron, you probably can tell that process better than anybody about that. When he decides to get windows and how to get approval on that. Right. So it's kind of similar to what we discussed, I guess, two weeks ago now when I stated, you know, due to the kind of the deterioration at the bottom. You know, I wasn't sure what the contractor could do in terms of saving that. It would probably have to be a new frame to do it wood on the bottom again, because I don't know what the top looks like. And because those don't seem to be the issue. It's the water going in at the bottom down there on the bottom sash. But regarding, you know, we had discussed vinyl as being an option as well. And due to the fact that they were deteriorated. So we did have those discussions of what they were looking for, but I did inform them that it kind of depends on HLC as staff can do an analysis. But that you all are the ultimate ones who decide and that sometimes it's been more wood. Sometimes it's been vinyl as long as the style, you know, stays and that design stays. So I, you know, I informed them of that and that it'd be kind of more of a discussion, but that maybe there could be some guidance of what has been done in the past. Would this be like sort of an advisory opinion or something to homeowners? I mean, is that really? But it's we're not going to vote on that. No, no. Okay. Right. I think coming out, we're supposed to make a finding if we feel like the building is not structurally sound at the moment, which triggers a 90 day window, or we can not make a finding at all. I don't think we have any basis for which to make a finding about that. Do we have a definition of structurally unsound? I don't think there is one either. Let me ask the homeowner a couple more questions. Does the roof leak now or does it sound inside? No, it's a brand new roof. Okay, so if not water other than through these windows, if it rains, water doesn't get in. What is the floor? Talk about the floor. There's no water getting in. The issue on this front window and the one on the side, I boarded that up. So the window, I can't see what that window is. Is that the side one? Sorry. Yes, so that's the side one. So those have been boarded up. There's no water getting in there in the front one. The front window, that window pane just came out. I believe that's the front one. Yes. Yes, that is the front one. And so there's no water getting in there at all. But it's all on the outside. And you can see what's... Can you scroll up just a little bit? Yeah. But the window where the board is only 80% of the way up there, there's no way water isn't getting in there. Oh, I see what you're saying. In other words, I guarantee you water is getting in there. I mean, that would need to be something that I would want to see addressed soon. Okay. Not tomorrow. But our preference would be to see you come back with the COA with windows now. That's not for tonight. But I think we're just interested in making sure water isn't getting in anywhere. Yes, ma'am. Go ahead. My concern for the windows is that we would like to see eye wood in a historic structure for it to be consistent. So in other words, if you're going to go in with vinyl windows, all of them be vinyl. Because from what we see on the side, they're going to have a vinyl window next to a wood window. See the wood window? They're all wood on the side, yes. So it's going to be wood next to vinyl. Well, those windows aren't being replaced. Just the three in the front of the home. I understand. I'm saying with the material for what you're saying, you're going to have everything else wood and then just those vinyl. Yes, those three would be vinyl. Not that I would be opposed to vinyl, but I would be opposed with kind of a hodgepodge of what's in the house. So those three windows in the front would be vinyl like she's talking about. The sides, they need to be painted and glazed and things that can be restored without an issue. But the three in the front need to be replaced. And so you're saying the vinyl in the front would clash with the wood? Well, it's going to be right next to one that's still going to be wood. That poses an interesting question, I think. If you've got one window that's deteriorated and needs to be replaced, and another one that can be restored, and the preference is to be restored, would we really want to destroy something that's able to be preserved? No, but you could do the other ones wood to look more like it and be more uniform and consistent. Because if we're talking about just vinyl for energy efficient, and you only have three windows that are. I think to summarize, when you come back with your COA to replace the windows, which you will need to do, you're going to have much easier growing if you're coming back with wooden windows, just like the other ones are windows. If you come back with vinyl, we need some information. But to push for us on these is to try and keep the wooden original flavor of the house. Well, it's just three windows, so it might not be that much additional cost to keep them wood. I think we would suggest that you do that just to make the whole process of getting forward with the COA. I just think that it would be nice to have all the windows the same kind of window. If there's something wrong with them and the others need to be replaced, then you might replace the whole house with vinyl windows. Well, that's the thing. The rest of the windows aren't damaged. They need window glazing and paint and all that, and that can be done. But it sounds to me that what you're recommending is put the wood and the three that need to be replaced and then restore the rest around it. Well, let me clarify that. I don't think our job is really recommended. It suggests some things to you that we think might be more appropriate than less appropriate. And I think it would be magnificent if you were to put wooden windows back in this home. But obviously, cost has to be an issue, right? It's not only cost that they said. They said the actual taking all of the wood out is a major concern around the rest and putting it back in. Would you be doing that with a vinyl window too? And I don't know anything about windows. I'm just learning. But what they're telling me is that the vinyl is able to take out a couple pieces from the side and the vinyl goes in. With the wood, they're going to take quite a bit more of all the window and some of the surrounding area out as well. So you're talking about the framing. Is it a pulley system? Do you know if those are pulleys? They are a pulley system? OK, so they would have to go into the sides of the frame itself and work on the pulley system. Do you have to do that regardless of the movement? Correct, yes. Yeah, I think probably to just talk to your installer and see if you can see what those options are and make whatever decision you feel is best. And before you finalize it, bring it by us and we'll put a sticker of appropriateness. We'll either stand here or come up with another suggestion. OK, so our goal tonight was either to make a binding or to not make a binding. I don't think you can make a motion not to make a binding. I think silence would be appropriate there. So I'll just close the mic and either have a motion that it's structurally unsound. I do have a question. With the windows sorted up, how long is that allowed? Because we wouldn't allow that over windows. You know, like what I'm saying is to me, the boards overall is not it's a temporary fix, not a permanent fix. So is there a time frame on how long they have from the boards up on the windows? So speaking with code enforcement, there is not. It's just they want to make sure that the property itself is secured and safely secured. And so that's why they asked him to board it. But there is no time limit from what I understand talking with code enforcement of how long those boards can be on there. There is there's a house near my neighborhood that has been boarded up for more than a year. I don't like the boards. This was this was done because they say this is more than just a window pane to put in. If it was just another front one, if it's if it's just a window pane, I put the window pane in one of our business, but it's more than that. It's more than what I can do is more than what I could do in 10 days or six weeks. And and I could order and put some in. But what I don't want to do is order and then not have approved from you guys or whoever it is. I would just like to know if it's wood windows, let's get wood windows and then get these boards taken down and start making this home beautiful. Just this has to be something we work together because I can't just do it. You guys have to advise me and then I have to find someone to order the windows. I just don't think we could tell you what to do. I mean, it's your home. So I think it's I think it's a situation where you pick what you want and then we review it for the standards and then this meets it or doesn't. OK, so what happens next? And one thing we could agree on is if you say, OK, it's June 13th. If you can have a C.O.A. back here by August something, we all agree that it's a couple of months. The C.O.A. doesn't mean you have to do it by then. It just means you've gotten with the builder and you said these repairs make the most sense given that, you know, we prefer wood to see. And if you can't do that, then you can tell us. I can't do it because here's why. And your C.O.A. is worse since it's all that stuff. But and obviously we can't command you to show back up August 13th. Our suggestion or the agreement would be work up something that you run by us and get permission because then we know you're at least on the process. Well, we don't want to have another complaint in December. Nothing's changed because then we're sitting there going, well, you didn't do anything. And so then I'd want to see what was behind the partially boarded up window. I mean, I don't want to say our job is we want the house to at least stay in the condition it's in and not get worse. And we'd love to see you start working on it. Well, when you say start working on it, can I start working on it now or do I have to come in and bring? You have to you probably need you need a C.O.A. because you're an historic district or you can hire anybody to do the work. OK, you're really supposed to have one if you're going to do the work, I think now, but I don't know that. But what you really have to do is get back with the guy that's going to help you and say, hey, they really want what can we do? And then he writes up something, you do an application, you bring it to us and you can be on our next agenda. And I can assist you all with that. Can I ask you one more question? Sure. We're just talking, I think. And now this is emotional here. Is there any way that you would accept repairing or restoring the windows? This has been brought up and it's been brought up at a. Well, I guess I guess if you're talking about repairing it, you would like. Wood windows, you would like for it to stay wood. Yes, we want consistency, consistency. OK, so but if you want to be repaired, I'm sorry, if they can be repaired. We don't have anything against repairing. We prefer the matter of fact, because the original stuff stays as much as possible. So that would be that would be the instance of just replacing that bottom sash with wood versus replacing the whole window with vinyl. Which may not be an option since the other paint fell out. We're only going by pictures, right? So we're saying if it's not an option to repair, replace, replace with with wood or stay consistent throughout the house. OK. I think I'm with you now. OK, so either all vinyl, the whole house vinyl or all wood, new wood for the three windows or repair the wood and keep the wood for the three windows. Replace, repair or all new vinyl. Yes, OK. You know, repairing is because it's a sort of structure, we want to leave as much of what was there originally there as possible. Obviously, repair will be replaced. But if you're going to replace, be consistent with what was there originally. OK, I agree about about replacing items that are that are still sound that can be restored. I think there's I think it goes against kind of the purpose of this just to preserve. Even if it's partial preservation, it's still preservation. I'm not sure that I agree with the notion of, well, if you're going to do some vinyl, just do them all. You know, because at the end of the day, looking at it from 10 feet, you probably wouldn't tell the difference. Regardless, especially if it's, you know, painted vinyl. I don't know that I agree there. That's something that, like, so, for example, if you brought, you know, this with a more got with Cameron and got and just did this as a COA, I'm not. You know, I couldn't say that we would or would not approve just just as you presented it. It's just we can't do that here because it has been a COA. OK, because the builders and I've looked at a bunch of them. They look. It would be different, but I don't know. I don't know if you could tell, like you said, from the street, from the front of the yard. This is just me personally, but if there is, you know, if it can't, if windows can't be preserved that are original to the house. Well, I guess that's the next question. Are these original windows to the house when there is? I believe they are. They have their place with the police. Yeah. So, I mean, if those can be preserved, for me, that would be the preference. But I think there's all kinds of different ways to approach this that would probably get everybody's approval. It's just, you know, whatever you prefer. And then and then bring that, you know, and then it'll either be approved or not or with with conditions. If because we would love to keep all the rest of those windows. There's I mean, they work and they're nice windows, but they need love. Right. But the three, I think if I understand you, I can bring a COA with this on it. You guys can vote on it. Correct. Yes. Approve or not approve and. Or approve with conditions. Okay. Good option. Okay. I can provide a couple of examples because we've actually had a couple of window projects come through in this year alone. So I can provide you all the some examples of what people have done in the past and kind of what the expectations are of HLC in terms of what they want to look at when they're looking at these COAs for windows. I think one of the things that might be helpful to you and Cameron can work with you on this as well is showing your thought process like if you go back to your contractor and you talk through the wood option and he says, well, here's the 10 reasons why that's a bad idea. If you can summarize those and like include those in your application, that can really help the board as well. So you can include like there's a list of things you have to include with a COA, but kind of those additional pieces that will help kind of summarize what you've taken from the conversation and kind of what steps you took to incorporate. The commission's advice from tonight is really helpful in the next step because then you're you got almost a full house here today. I think we're only missing one commissioner. So you've heard from most of them, but it would at least give some insight as to I think at this point, a lot of people ask, well, why can't you just do an in-kind replacement wood for wood? And there's some real reasons from contractor perspectives as to why you can't do that. And our code is flexible from a legal perspective to allow things like that. So it just depends on the board's decision-making process and the more information they have, the better they can make an informed decision. Are we doing anything tonight that's going to impact the sort of that 90-day window? No, so I'm going to leave the floor open for 10 more seconds. If I don't hear a motion, we'll consider the agenda item closed. So that would be a motion to find the structure itself of themselves? Yes. That would be the motion I would need for us to, that would trigger the 90-day window. 10 seconds has now passed without a motion. Okay, so we're not going to make a finding that your home is structurally unsound, which does not trigger a timer. We strongly encourage you to get with the builder and bring something back. Let's get going and we'll work you as much as we can. And Cameron's really good about, I think he'll go for this or they won't, meaning us, things that meet with codes. Okay, and I apologize because I know you're getting conflicting information from different people. And it's because we just have different opinions on it. And that's just kind of how this works and so on. That's why we can't really give you a set of, here's what you need to do, this is what we want because it's going to be, it's going to come down to a vote and who thinks what and that sort of thing. So it's hard for any one person to say this is exactly what we want as a whole. Any other thing I would offer? They're trying their best to give you their thoughts right now. But it's because of how the agenda item is posted on the agenda and what they're tasked with their finding. They're specifically tasked with tonight determining whether or not the structure was believed to be unsound or not. They weren't posted for consideration of what type of windows to be installed. And they don't have all of your application materials to understand the types of windows that you would keep proposing. So that's why they happen to walk a fine line to some regards regarding that. So I think they're trying to help you where they can, but understand that they need the certificate of appropriateness. And we can talk more afterwards. That's a much better way to say it. Hopefully you've done something about it and we look forward to seeing this house soon. I think it's going to be, it's a beautiful home, great neighborhood, just going to be great. It'll be a great home for you. Oh yes ma'am. Can't wait. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Can I ask one last final question? Sure. The COA, would I put on there both types, vinyl or wood or just one at a time? I think what we can do is why don't you meet with Cameron. Maybe you guys get together tomorrow if your schedule allows or Wednesday. I know Tuesdays and Wednesdays she's usually in a bunch of meetings. But maybe the two of you connect and she can advise you best as to what to include on your application or not. But use Cameron as a resource and she can help get your application the best possible position for the commission's consideration. So me personally, I can't speak for the whole, but I would also like to know if you have different options, what your preference on those options is. I mean, because after all, this is your home and he's going to be living there. We've looked from afar. Well there's two. One is something like the vinyl and get it done and be done with it. But clearly it's wood and the beauty of it and the function of it and all of that. So I think I would just have to see if these gentlemen can do that without creating more damage. So they also make vinyl windows with a wood facade and that may be something you want to look into as well. And that would have the same look. It would match what you were actually were speaking of the continuity of the symmetry consistency of it all. I assume I can find something like that. I look too hard at the windows to be able to compare it. Something maybe to look at. You kind of have to do the best you can sometimes. So we can talk. I can email you all after the search tomorrow morning. We can set up a time and we can discuss. We can kind of discuss prior options, but taking this kind of condense that and kind of talk about some more options that you all have. Our goal is to get this done. This is really why we want to get it done and figure out what it is so we can. Because the gentleman also told me that the order of the windows is 12 weeks or so. So that's if you're lucky. We had to wait eight months on ours. It was insane. But I think it's cleared up since then. Okay, that closes this section, section two of our agenda, I believe. So now we'll move to section three, which is the work section part. Receive HLC 22-061. You're welcome to stay. Thank you for coming. HLC 22-061. Receive a report and hold the discussion regarding dent and reveal preservation month 2022. Chair, so this is a fun presentation. This is kind of just running through what went down during that revealed for the preservation of 2022. So just kind of an overview, we had eight events over three weeks. This included three workshops, three walking tours, a bar crawl, a story time and one lecture. We also had a This Place Matters campaign on social media on Preserve Denton's Instagram. It was sponsored by the City of Denton, Denton Public Library, Denton County Office of History and Culture. And there are there were seven partnerships throughout that that I'll go into a little bit more detail on. So these were the partnerships during that. We had Discover Denton and Denton Chamber of Commerce. They were kind of the publicity and marketing. And then we had Hull Millwork. They were the first event that we had with that window restoration workshop. And that was paired with all three of these sponsors right here. Then we had another event with Co-File that was hunting your house history workshop. They are a preservation firm. They preserve a lot of government documents. And that's what the county uses, the appraisal district uses. We also had historic designation, how to designate your property in Denton. That was with the Texas Historical Commission and the city. So me and RCL certified local government rep came up from Austin and we presented that. And then the last kind of events that we had were on the 21st and 22nd. On the 21st, that was a culmination of the City of Denton, Stronger Denton and Denton Main Street Association. That was a small-scale development workshop and their Imagine the Possibilities Tour. So this is just estimated attendance for city, county, and Denton Public Library events specifically. The window restoration workshop had approximately 15 people in attendance, which you can see up here, which is great, which is at the Emily Thado Library. The Oakwood Cemetery Tour had about 35 people in attendance. I guess the biggest feedback we got from that is that there's lots of planes that fly overhead and also the train. And the wind was very strong and we did not have a microphone. So that would be helpful for in the future. Storytime was really popular and that was 31 kids and adults in attendance and they did some coloring at that. Hunting Your House History Workshop was about 15. And then historic designation lecture was six, which we kind of expected would be smaller. Not everyone has interest in designating their properties, but we wanted to make sure that people know that's available and that there are some tax incentives at the national, state, and local level for that. Was there a lot of overlap? This day, on the 14th, we had a lot of overlap. And then we did see some people from the 7th also at the cemetery tour. A lot of younger people at the cemetery tour had a lot of interest in the gravestones and the headstones. So these are just some pictures that we have. We have our Small Scale Development Workshop. This was the Imagine the Possibilities. Den Main Street did that. City and County Proclamations. This Place Matters Campaign. You can see Monica in there. And then our Window Restoration Workshop with Brent Hall, who's here. And then DTV actually did some filming. Split and stuff like that. I feel like you get the blood epoxy. You know it was a video. Abitron. What? So we also did some YouTube videos. Denton Television did some of the videos, which turned out to be really, really great. One was for Whole Mill Works, and another one was the Oakwood Cemetery Tour. And I believe they did the Storytime, but that's more for the Denton Public Library website. So some of the successes were we created new interests in historic preservation. Business owners who became really interested in it. Members of the public who had never really heard about preservation were really interested. Did not cost us a dime to put this on. It was free. Except for the bar crawl, which I did not attend, but that's our Denton Main Street. We were able to create new and stronger relationships with some of those partners. People were really excited for next year and wanted to know what we were already planning. And then social media outreach. We were able to cover a lot of ground with Facebook and Instagram and YouTube. People seemed to like having all those different levels of social media. In terms of lessons learned, you need to market it a lot earlier. A lot of people said, well if you had put it out back in January, we would have known. With a team of four, that's a lesson learned for sure. More county-wide outreach and organization participation. We only had about, most people from the city of Denton. We had about four women attend on that Saturday the 14th with hunting your house history and designation from Justin, Texas. Because they had some interests in learning about some designations and fixing up their property. Keeping it simple. People seemed to like that. Don't overthink it too much. Obviously participation from city and county historic commissions. We had talked about this. It was something that since we were pulling it together, it didn't get to you all until March. So obviously moving on to the next year, we'd like to all be part of that. Building this process and building up the events for that month would be great. And then more children's events. We had a lot of people who said, you have a lot of great events for adults, but we'd love to see more kids friendly events if possible. And then that's it. But I just wanted to give you all that overview just because it was a fun month of events. And it seemed to be successful and people seemed really interested in looking forward to the future. But I wanted to give you all that overview just so you kind of know where we were at at the end of the month. There were no pictures from the bar crawl, was there a reason? I did not attend the bar crawl. I can show you some. I was saying Marcella did. That's cool. I just thought that was curious. No, it was actually really fun. I went with my mom. She was in town. We did the bar crawl. And they had a lot of really interesting stuff to talk about. A lot of the buildings had really interesting histories. So I think it was, I did that and then the cemetery tour. Then Cameron went together. This was down on the square. Denton actually has a lot of history with species. So that's kind of what they're, I think that was their theme. They basically had the different bars kind of talk about their historic buildings and then how they renovated them and the process and kind of figuring out the history of who was there before. So that's really interesting. Everyone was really knowledgeable about their building and who had kind of inhabited it in the past and what it had been leading up to now. So yes, I think that was the end of what you said. It was, yeah. That's both Andy's, right? And then... Okay, lastly, well, is that everything on that? Yeah, yeah. Okay, is to HLC 22063, hold the discussion regarding our HLC project matrix. Go ahead. So this is just, once again, if you all want to add anything to the matrix or if you're looking for staff to kind of move forward on one of these that remain on our matrix and present that within the next month or two, but this is really for you all to use and kind of just moving forward. Okay. I feel like we need to add something on windows. And let me tell you why. Okay, not for, I know we can't discuss it now, but I'm going to tell you why. A few months ago, we had someone come in that replaced all their windows. They were all vinyl. We didn't know condition of the windows whatsoever. Didn't know, because they did not get a COA. Yeah, but I think it was after the fact, yeah. But we passed it. And then we come in and we say, now, we had the discussion today. We're like, we don't really have a standard. We don't. At all. And I think it just leaves it wide open for people. And that even between us as a commission on our different opinions on it. So I just feel like having some kind of standards would be helpful. Like Kacen said, we're, we all are kind of given our own opinions here, but we don't really have a standard as a. Yeah, that can be confusing for them. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, well, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because there's different ways to go about it. And there's probably several different options they have that would make it through this committee. And so, you know, finding the one that works best for the homeowner is it would be my purpose. If they like they like one way or another, you know, as long as it meets our our things, I don't see the problem with it. And I get what you're saying, except also it's we're here to preserve. Right. So you have to balance both of those. And to me, that's where it gets very confusing on what's best for them. May not be the preservation that fits. Anyway, I'm just feeling I just felt like it would be easier. Well, some standards might flow from some of these broader principles that we discussed in previous meetings. You might be able to. Yeah, yes. How do we determine if we say what's best for the client if what's best going to be vinyl, and it still maintains the architectural integrity. And that's the only option that is feasible economic for them. Do we vote against that and didn't have a boarded up house forever? Right. I think we need standards. Yeah. So I think just sort of move us back to the discussion. We can definitely like this is a great discussion to have thinking about the flexibility of standards and it's worth having a standard. So we do need consensus, at least to other people interested in seeing it. So you're asking for consensus about adding to the major. Yes, we need at least we need at least three people. Okay. All those in favor, raise your hand. Reminds you of the sign that says there's a sign ahead. Okay, so we're in the weeds. Well, I just had a very close friend. In fact, she's sort of like a adoptive daughter has a sort of home and eat at Oklahoma. She got two quotes vinyl and wood. The wood for 39 windows was $118,000. And the wood and the vinyl was $56,000. So it's twice as much. And she's like, it's just a matter of, I'll have to just fix what I can. Because she's just designated historic home. I'm like, you know, it's all it's just it's frustrating. Because here's somebody I've known since she was a little kid, they can't afford to repair her replace her windows and they need it. So do you not just approve vinyl and it gets boarded up because financially they can't see so that's a great discussion. Yeah, yeah. That's right. She's bringing this back. So we agree to add that to the matrix, which means we can enter into a discussion next time. Yes, correct. Okay, motion to adjourn. So I'll do anyone else have any. Any other commissioners, we're trying to make sure all commissioners feel empowered to speak at meetings. I'm making the continued instance of errors in my job. No, you got it. Okay, so now we've had a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye.