May 09, 2022 Historic Landmark Commission on 2022-05-09 5:30 PM

We haven't started yet, I'm just going to wait. Okay, well taking note of a quorum, we will open the agenda of the Historic Landmark Commission, our regularly scheduled May meeting. You guys will stand with me and we'll recite the U.S. Pledge and the Texas Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Honored by the Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to the Texas, one state, under God, one and indivisible. Thank you. First up, as an item for consideration, is the approval of the April 11th, 2022 minutes. If they've all been circulated, we have any corrections or suggestions or comments? I didn't kind of look at it in a real close, so I need a motion. We have a motion to approve and a second. All those in favor say aye. Raise your hand, that's everybody, it's unanimous. Second item on the agenda is the election of a chair and vice chair for the Historic Landmark Commission. Now then, I believe what we normally do is we ask for volunteers as opposed to nominations, isn't that correct, and as you guys know, I've done this for a while, two years. And you've done it so well. No, no, no. We just love it. I'm not nominating you, right? I don't think it's... Okay, but let's get real about one thing. Can we just open the floor for discussion? That's okay. Okay, so I will be... I'm finishing my sixth year on this committee. I've been extended for one more year until August. I probably won't be able to stay August of 2023, a year from this August. Okay, now I probably will be moving out of the city of Denton in about a year, so I won't make it to August of 2023. Oh, that's fine. We'll find somebody to finish out. Okay, but if you recall, who's the lady that was the chair right before me? Yeah, I know you're talking about Elizabeth. No, no, no, no. She was Perky, the teacher, history teacher. So anyway, the only thing I should suggest is in advance, and because Mary, you've chaired probably five or six of these as well, that we look at getting someone ahead of, so that you have some months because the easiest thing as a chair is to have somebody that is watching and throwing softballs, motions, and this to move the meetings along, and so anyway. Do we have anybody with... So having said all that, if you guys... I'm nominating, and I know you don't take nominators. Yeah, but think about the fact that, because we've got a year plus I'm going to be around, how long, when do you want someone else to do this? Because it's not my committee. Right, yes, for now it is. Okay, I will agree, assuming we have votes. All those in favor, and I don't think I can vote. Raise your hand. Wow, that's... Okay, so then I will do it with the caveat that at some point prior to my departure, six months or something, I will resign, and we'll have another election. That's awesome. Everybody okay with that? Yes. Now we need a vice chair, which Mary has been doing, and... Eventually I will time off, so you know, I am not in the far vote behind you, Roy. But I think we get off the same day. Yeah, exactly. So I mean, you know, it's, you know, if anybody would like to volunteer... If I want to volunteer to serve as the vice chair. Yeah. Wow, we're just not... Okay, we can do it like the Army, and I can get a half vote in favor. Yeah. No, but I'm fine, because it's working really well right now. I mean, I don't mind states of the duration, I just want... All those in favor, raise your hand. Okay, so there you go, we had an election. Okay. Now, have we violated any civic statutes along the way? It's my fellow's job to tell you. Okay, are we? Yes, I better be careful. Okay, so the minutes are signed. Thank you. I didn't use my name. You know, I never signed my name, and she never catches it. She thought me it made me sign, I'm just telling you, when you weren't here. Okay, so the next... All right, so that closes the public part of our meeting. Next, we open the work session part, and I will turn... It's HLC 22057. Receive a report and hold discussion regarding enforcement of the debt development code in relation to the HLC's powers and duties. And for that, and how about for the rest of the agenda, I'll turn it over to Ms. Cameron. Oh, well, thank you, Chair. So tonight, me and Stephanie... Sorry, Stephanie. What's it for you? Oh, Barry. Barry. I came in here with an email. I'm sorry, I was just... Exactly, it's a little different. Join the club, the alternative is not possible. Well, they found somebody else to be on here. I hear they're looking at your stuff. We will be discussing the debt and development code and kind of the actions that you all can take as HLC if historic property owners kind of violate the different procedures that we're supposed to be taking within that development code. So Stephanie, if you want to start off. Would you like me to start off? I'm fine. Mine's very brief regarding the code enforcement. You can start, and then I'll explain municipal prosecution, how we'd file a case, who would file a case, and all of this. So we don't have a presentation, it's more just a discussion. Oh, that's kind of cool. That's even better. Yes, yes. So I'm going to read off my page, so I make sure I get everything out there. So building safety can issue a stop work order and work without permit fee is added to a contractor's responsibility. So for residential, usually the first time is waived. The first offense for commercial and second offense for residential is $250 work without permit fee assessed. After that, if more work is done without permits, the fee is three times the permit fee plus $500. It will change based off of what the work is being done. Okay, and so is that the eighth COA as a permit considered a permanent clause? So this is regarding, no, so this is a COA is not considered. So this is after it leaves here and or whatever they do and they don't get a permit from PNG. For if they don't get a building permit in general, so any building permit. So if they don't get a fence permit and they were required to get a fence permit and it was an historic district, then those violations would be held against them. Say they're changing windows, they didn't get a window permit, then that would be flagged for, okay, well, they also didn't get a COA. So then that would bring them back through that process. I guess I'm still kind of confused on the order with which they should do it. They should come to us first and then they get their permit. Correct, yes. But if they get the, what if they go to planning and they will somehow get a permit, I mean. So if they were getting a permit, it would be flagged in our community services. So we've just went through, back in January, after we've had some issues in the past, went through our community development software, came back with a bunch of, when you get into your community development system, it alerts you, saying there's restrictions on this property. So that alerts right when someone puts that property address in. So that's where this works, okay. Yes, correct. So this is basically, if you're at the end of the phase, they haven't gotten the building permit, they haven't gotten the COA, they've already just started doing work, then this is where these violations and these charges would be coming in. Are these charges different in the historic district than in the rest of the city? No, they're not. Oh, yeah, just curious. Okay, so you guys know, a neighbor tells us their windows have been replaced at 1313 West Oak Street, fake address. Right. And then they go out there and all the windows are gone, they're all now something, not code windows. So the process is you guys investigate that drive out there and tell them they have to get something after the fact. You might walk us through, you've now gotten a call, the windows have been in more than two months. And the neighbor calls and says, hey, they didn't do this right. Walk us through the process from there to they get a fine, they go to court. What happens? So something that's done after the fact, they will be fine from our perspective. They can get a building permit fee, I believe. But from the perspective, it's already done. So for instance, we had that last project that had already been done, but they did have a building permit. So they did not include any fees from us because as part of our procedures or powers and duties within the DDC, HLC does not have that jurisdiction to charge anyone. That all has to go through the building department. So if it's already been in place for two months, from my understanding, I don't think we can do anything. From a code enforcement. Correct. So there's two separate processes where we're talking. Stephanie is going to go through the after the fact kind of municipal prosecution piece, which can be done whenever there is a potential violation and she'll go through what those sorts of obligations are. Code enforcement's work is kind of prior to that when they're making sure people are doing their work with a permit correctly. And the COA process would come in before the permit was issued. So there's a step in our permit issuing software that says this flags Cameron, this is historic property, and should have a COA prior to getting a permit for whatever the work is. But in this instance, the phone rings, it's in, it's done. They're finished, the contact record's gone. What do you guys do about that? Do you just, oh well. Yeah, overnight. Say they worked on a weekend, there's no code enforcement out, and they pulled all the windows, slapped the new ones, and there's just a new front door. Now what do you do? They've done it, it's done, the old door is gone. So I kind of know something about this. Just, I mean, from, unfortunately, prior to the experience, I had somebody call me recently where they had this, and planning zoning said retroactive to get a permit. And, you know, in that way, and then they'll come out and inspect it and everything. And that way they can see if it was all done correctly as to, you know, what was supposed to be done. And if not, I'm not sure what happens if it's not, but I assume they'll tell them to redo it or do it correctly. But it, when you say correctly, do you mean just according to the normal building codes? Whatever code, or whatever the building inspection people want it to be. Not necessarily. Well, I assume when something comes in, they're looking to get a permit, and you said now there's procedures to flag it. Yes, correct. And they've got to get it from here first. And so I would assume even if it's after the fact, they've still got to get our COA. Just like they, I mean, before they were trying to get our COA. Right. So they would still have to come get the COA. They would still have to come through HLC. And you would still have to make those votes of approval, approval of conditions or deny. Where likely in that instance, if they've already done it, you know, there's been discussion in the past saying, oh, okay, well, we're going to deny it just to inform them that this is not okay. This is not the process. But that is really only the power and duty that HLC has at that point. But that would prevent the permit from going through at that point, wouldn't it? If the works are already done, the permit, yes, the permit wouldn't be approved, but there's no instance where they would make them necessarily remove it if it was done correctly. Right. So, I mean, again, it comes back to my central discussion, Cameron, which is our purpose is kind of diluted by the fact that really, you know, as a homeowner in the historic district, I can go do what I want and say, I don't care. Well, that's where, yeah, that's what I'm saying. So, let's say a case like that, they didn't get a permit. They, actually a question here, they didn't get a permit. It didn't, it doesn't comply with the requirements for the historic landmark neighborhood. And so you could file a case for the violation. And this is where it gets tricky about how much was the door. So, as a prosecutor, I know I really want the door to comply with what the house is supposed to look like. So, I would ask the judge to assess the maximum fine, which is $500 plus 81, and say, I'll dismiss this case if you get your door and comply with what it should have been. If the door was $2,000, they might say, I'll pay the 581, or I want a jury trial. If the door was $600, $700, they might comply. So, because you can only charge, it's a one-time offense, right? So, I can only charge one time. So, that's where we're not a civil court for getting restitution. But as a prosecutor, I can do an interest of justice dismissal. And if I can get a repair or compliance, then I'll dismiss it. So, you look at what is their cost to go back and make it compliant versus the fine. I think we had some tree cases where they chopped down a bunch of trees, business, in violation of the tree ordinance. And they were like, tell us how much to pay. Because it was not worth it to them. So, that's where you have to look at what is the change. I feel like we've only had one prosecution for a historic violation, and it was a front porch that was done out of the character of the neighborhood, maybe. >> Was that the one on the- >> Years ago, and there might have even been an argument about whether it was out of the character of the neighborhood. Does that sound right? >> I'm not sure. >> It would have been years ago. >> At least in your full while, I didn't hear about that. >> Years ago, I didn't hear about that. >> Anyhow, so that gives you an idea. So, the fine is helpful if the correction is not super expensive. >> Sure, okay. >> If the correction is $2,000, and I say I'll dismiss that. Although, on the other hand, if they're good for the fine, I mean that $581 can go to the correction. >> I'm a little curious that because on commercial, you have to have a COA to be in there. Okay, on residential, you have to have an inspection and stuff before you do that. So if someone breaches the code, I'm a little surprised the city just said turn off the juice. Cuz we all gotta buy electricity from you guys. If you're non-compliant, fine, enjoy yourself. I'm just curious, should you say the fines are not efficient, but if they can't turn on the electricity, they'll show up. >> I think counsel has actually made it a policy of the city not to have electricity turnoffs. >> There's some liability issues there, yeah. >> Well, and I'm not really advocating for that. I'm just surprised because in this instance, you think the city has a lot of ability to bring people into code compliance. And the reality is you're pretty limited. >> So what you're looking for there, and I'm sorry. You're looking for some type of, as far as criminal goes, it's usually either jail or fine or some combination of the two. You can't really assess anything outside of that as far. You can't say, well, your criminal penalty is gonna be come paint my house. >> No, no, no, not like that. They just take and ignore you. >> Well, having lived in the storage district for a long time, we see this time and time again. People do things and tear out entire fronts. They all change the color. They all do all kinds of things without any permission, and then they come and go, okay, let me go to confession and get absolved by saying three Hail Marys. I mean, that's what it really winds up seeming. And they know, they just don't care. So I find that we're doing good. I'd rather have them stop. I like Cameron's postcard a lot. But I do get the feeling that they're gonna do what they wanna do anyway. >> Well, what happens if they decide they don't wanna be in the district anymore? They already own this property and they're living there. >> So yeah, that's a different question. That's off our topic for today. >> Wow, that's good. >> That's off our topic for today. So that's something- >> I have a question. If somebody does this repeatedly, is it enhanceable? >> No, it's not written that way. I did have, Cameron, I did have a question. Something you brought up. So they don't get a permit at all? >> Correct. >> It's residential. They were supposed to get a permit to put a new front door on? Would they have to? >> Is it? Yes. >> Okay, yes. >> So they would be required to- >> So there'd be two issues. They put a front door on that doesn't comply with the character of the neighborhood. >> Correct. >> And they didn't get a permit at all. >> Correct. >> So building planning would tell them, well, you can go get a permit after the fact. >> Yes. >> So could y'all not also tell them? And we're gonna file it. We're gonna file on you for not having a permit at all, and you need to go get a permit. And then we could, and then I'm gonna file a second case. I mean, I'd actually be doing both for violating. So you'd have the no permit at all and historic plan. So it'd be two violations, which would be $1,000 plus. You should have same file two cases offer to dismiss them both. >> Two requirements, yes. >> So there are ways and it's like you said, how much did it cost to redo? How much does it cost to repaint? How much are the fines worth? How much is it worth for them to be like, I'll pay the full fines. >> Can I ask a question? It's not necessarily related to historic district, but just in general, in order to apply. Let's say somebody decides to convert their garage to a part of their house, or add a small addition and they don't get it permitted. What does the city do about that? >> Same sort of situation because the fee still applies. So we would require them to get a permit, right? And if they choose not to, actually we'll prosecute if we choose to. But we actually would like for them to inspect, ensure that they were done properly so that there would be no life safety. >> Yeah, because I've seen like people list where they have unpermitted addition that I'm thinking of. >> But if it does comply with all codes, building codes. >> And that's why you guys have seen people come after the fact in some cases when it was discovered, either they didn't have a permit or the system wasn't set up to flag historic homes yet. We'll sometimes have them come back after as well to talk to you all and kind of get the experience of going in here, understanding that next time they need to come back beforehand. So it at least gives them an experience of what the process should look like, even if it was done out of sequence. But I also, I just want to remind everyone, we do have our ad hoc committee who's actively looking at the code the way it exists right now. But, you know, we as city staff are all limited by what the code allows. And if there is no, if sometimes the answer is the code doesn't let us do it. And that's frustrating. I know that's the worst answer for me to give. It's not helpful. But that's sometimes the only answer we can give you is that the way the code is written, there isn't another fine or there isn't another penalty that might be great enough to encourage people to actually do the work correctly. But that's something that kind of our ad hoc committee can look at. I think that's why I'm glad we're having this discussion now before we kind of decided what direction you guys want to take for any amendments you want to make. Because now you can kind of understand from both what building enforcement can do, which is what Cameron just presented on, and then how the municipal prosecution process looks like. Because that's really the only two routes that exist right now for violations of the code. And so that's what we wanted to bring you all up to speed on. And then as you know, the ad hoc committee can discuss maybe additional routes you want to take and reach out to me and Cameron and see if you want to find other cities. They do things differently or the same. But there's really, we're very limited by what our current procedures allow. So we're going to do better. We're going to do better. Well, yes, we got to do better within the code. I actually had an issue that would be helpful if some of y'all's come up, and it's not fixed in code enforcement. So it's an offense to build a fence without a permit, right? Yes, you need a permit. So you put it up, you don't have a permit, you take it, you pay it in full. It's a one-time offense, right? Yeah. And so somebody, so then what? Nothing. So if we wrote that, and that's not y'all's deal, but if that section was written, it shall be an offense to maintain a fence that was erected without a permit each day, it shall be a shepherd offense. That's the way, and my defense attorney over here is thinking, "How do I get around that?" What I'm worried about is all of a sudden, somebody coming back a year and a half later will be like, "Well, where did he get you for the last year and a half you didn't have a permit?" X amount of dollars a day, that could be... But, and somebody could argue you're just trying to get around double jeopardy. It was the one time I put it up on one day. But that's the issue. That's the issue if paying the fine is worth it. It happens on traffic accidents. I mean, we are not a civil court, but if somebody deems your back of your bumper and they didn't have insurance and it's a $250, what? Card pairs 250, but let's go with it. You know, they can bang it out for 250 and my victim, like I just, I don't have any money. It's a good car though. I want them. And I can say, "I'll dismiss your $250 ticket if you just pay the restitution." But if they crush the back end of your car and it's 3000 bucks, what? "I'll dismiss your $200 ticket if you pay the $3000." So you see what I'm saying? That's where these cases get into. Is it a huge change? How expensive is the change they're going to weigh? It's a garage conversion that costs a lot of money. It's a front door, depends on the front door. And certainly that's more doable. And I think it is a tough issue. It's just that it would be nice to not have to be discussing this all together. You know, I mean, I like your postcards. I think you have to send them like every month to keep people aware that they need to do stuff. So I have two questions. One, has anybody ever come and asked retroactively for a COA? Has the same person ever had that happen once anybody's aware of? Not that since I've been here, I've never had that happen. But they've never come back for anything else either. One guy came for two things, the guy that did the mural. One guy came with two potential oopsies. He said no and the city council overruled us and left him alone. Well, I guess my question is... And that guy was on the HLC. He knows. No, he knows. He knows. And he didn't even ask. Yeah, it's hard to say, you know, yeah. Knowledge is power. Yeah, seriously. So, yeah, so if it's an issue of somebody coming back over and over, it sounds like more than anything else that people just don't know. And they don't do it again after that first time because they know the procedures at that point. And it sounds like there's safeguards in place now to prevent that from happening. Like it'll be flagged for that sort of thing. I guess the only real loophole is if somebody doesn't get a permit at all, then they're bypassing HLC too. Right. And, I mean, it's going to be the same issues that, you know, non-permits are going to have all over the place that don't have anything to do with HLC. What was that house on Avenue C, was it, or Malone? Where the guy just took the whole front off of it and then claimed ignorance. It was about six, eight months ago. And, you know, we could maybe approach it from a positive standpoint because remember we talked about last time the tax exemption, right? And if we did a public information thing that said, hey, we can cut your taxes in half and come to our informal thing, spend whatever and you get a decrease. And by the way, here are the rules. In other words, because our job at the end of the day isn't to be punitive to the people in our districts, but rather to help them comply. That's ultimately what we're supposed to do. And that works both ways. At that point, because if somebody is violating, we could take that into consideration, I assume, with their deduction as well. Yeah, because if the work wasn't done appropriately. Obviously, if the work is not done appropriately and it comes in front of HLC, you all can state that it's denied and then it would end up going to city council and stated why it was a denial. And usually in the past, they've voted which way HLC votes. So the more people we can get on board with getting the deduction, the more teeth that we have. It's just information because a lot of people, that's a hook. I can cut your taxes in half. You're already spending the money, right? Probably over the course of a decade, you're going to have spent 10 grand, right? So you get a whole decade's worth of 50% of the city taxes. Well, I was about to state, so I'm glad you stated this right, but I was supposed to say education at this point is very key. It's really putting a face to a name of who the Historic Landmark Commission is. For instance, I had a gentleman come in today. He was looking to do something to the interior of one of the historic buildings. And he goes, I was told by all my neighbors, I have to go get the COA. I did not do anything until I talked to you. I told you, and I was like, that is great. I was like, you're not actually touching the exterior. So you don't need to come to me for a COA. But I was like, thank you so much for coming in. I was like, this is exactly what we need. I was like, if someone else has a question for you on the square and you're touching the exterior, definitely send it my way. The more eyes we have out there, the better. And he was like, thank you so much. So that's just word of mouth, even. Well, and it's reassuring that it wasn't the neighbors coming in to be like, do it anyway and just ask for permission. Yeah, exactly. So I mean, it does go to show that I don't think that's the reputation that people have or that this committee has to the public. That, oh, well, forget what they say, $500. All right. Well, yeah, I saw somebody just recently, I went to see this house on Congress that we almost bought. I sent the guy to you and gave him your contact because he was from Dallas as a realtor. He wanted to know, oh, how difficult is HLC? And I'm laughing thinking, it's not bad, you know. All the rules because he's been in Dallas. So he thinks it's a lot harder. Exactly. I said, it's not really that bad. He didn't do the work. He's like, oh, I gave you your contact. Okay. I've heard from him, but that's great. That's good. Thank you. So since we have Stephanie here, she's going to go through the municipal court. So you guys know what happens if anyone is interested in filing with the municipal court, which again, criminal court, it's a little bit different, but Stephanie's expert. She knows it all. Okay. So first, who brings a case to municipal court? Anyone can bring the case to municipal court. One of y'all, a concerned citizen, a city employee. Anyone willing to sign a probable cause affidavit? What is a probable cause affidavit? It is a legal document that sets forth enough evidence for the judge to believe there's probable cause reasonably, but offense occurs. It's not beyond a reasonable doubt. More likely than not that an offense has occurred and it was committed by this person. So the first thing, the process before the hearing, someone decides an offense has taken place. Someone that lives in the district. My neighbor painted their house purple, white, and green stripes on the front. And this is not in the character of our neighborhood. You call Cameron or ethnic, you know, would you be the person they contact and say, I cannot believe what they did to the front of this house. Yes. And it was so beautiful. And then y'all look at the standards and you believe a violation has occurred. Maybe you reach out to Marcel and she's like, yeah, call Stephanie. And then I would email you an affidavit. Actually, like, this is just a rough draft. This is an example. I thought about bringing like a completed building and planning one, but it would have someone's name on there. They are public record. Someone could get them. But I thought I don't want to redact a bunch of stuff and have a bunch of redaction. So I actually took out the place for home address. It's not required that if a citizen files against someone, we haven't put their home address. We can find them via witness. If y'all are filing it, you know, we can, we could find you. I took out home number. This is trying to tell you how old these are. I took out home number because we all have cell phones now. And then I thought this is city. I'm supposed to make this gender neutral. And then I thought, well, this is also criminal case and a warrant could be issued. So it can't be general gender neutral. But I did put the word there in one place. So for these are criminal cases. So we need a date of birth, if possible. It can't go into warrant because I'll give you an example at when I lived in the city of Denton on the voting registrations at one time, there was four Stephanie Barry's, right? So if they go to, they need to know which Stephanie Barry it is. Well, it's the oldest, I was the oldest. So having my birthday would be helpful, right? So it's going to have some identifying information on there. And the person that swears to the probable cause affidavit has to know that the suspect, defendant, he'll be a defendant or she will be a defendant. Once they get this, they have a right to a copy of this. They're going to get a copy of this. - Is it redacted though? - No, it's not legal to redact a probable cause affidavit. Actually, I've had a police officer mad at me when a lady was murdered by her boyfriend. It was, y'all probably heard about it, where the boyfriend made it look like a suicide and that he was a sheriff's deputy from Tarrant County and turned out to be a murder. Well, the officer listed the mom's name of the victim in the affidavit. Well, of course, the press, I mean, it was newsworthy. We're calling the mom, but her name was on there. Like I can't, and so one of the sergeants called me, you should redact, like it's illegal for me to redact it. So yeah, so it has to be. So maybe two neighbors live together. If they hate the house, one's more less worried about finding out who filed it. Maybe it's me and I'm like, I'll sign the affidavit. It's okay. They've got to be willing to do that. So, but a city employee could sign the affidavit. So someone fills out this affidavit. Our judge, our current judge actually just changed the process this year and the affidavit can be sworn to a notary public or he allows a police officer. So you don't have to, we used to have to make appointments until the last year with the judge. So that was a little cumbersome for everybody. So it could be done. You could do it with a notary. And then it is sent to the, this document will be filled out, sworn to and sent to the judge, sworn to in front of a notary or a peace officer. He finds probable cause that all the elements are there. He will issue a summons. We don't put classes into warrant without giving them a chance to voluntarily come to court. And an order to come to court and answer to the charge. What does that mean? That means to plea guilty, not guilty or no contest. That's, I do, we do those three days a week at one o'clock, Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. And they have a right to hire an attorney, hire an attorney. And they have a right to a judge or jury trial. The case is, has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, even though it's a class C. So it's a criminal burden of proof. Here say, can be on here. My neighbor said that they knew the house was supposed to be, you know, red and they painted it polka dots. And that's hearsay, right? It's what somebody else said. That can be considered for a probable cause affidavit. For court hearsay, hearsay could come in, but I'll tell you our current judge will not consider it at all. Judge Ramsey would weigh it. I'm giving the tips away. I mean, it doesn't matter. It's not a tip because he won't consider it at all. And it cuts both directions too. It does cut both directions. He won't, it's like, he never heard it. If it's not hearsay. So if the neighbor that heard the person that painted the house say, I'm, you know, admit to the violation, you need that body in the courtroom to testify. So what's required on this hearsay can come in. That's how they get warrants on selling drugs and a lot of things. But for court hearsay can come in if it without objection, but depending on the judge, they can weigh it as nothing or they can look at the credibility of it. Our current judge will not consider it at all. So you need live bodies in court to testify if someone please please not guilty. Let's see. So we got, so someone hires an attorney. Does that mean that they're going to go to trial? I'm always actually happy when people hire an attorney because I'm more likely to get a reasonable discussion. I'm not saying an outcome and resolution. And a lot of times people will get to the trial then they're representing themselves and suddenly, hey, I want to hire an attorney. Or guilty, not guilty or no contest. And then the life story starts guilty, not guilty. So it's not a bad thing when people hire an attorney. It's a good thing. And I'm not saying maybe most of the people I talk to are representing themselves and it's not a problem, but sometimes it's really good if someone hires an attorney. And then make plea bargain offers. And like I said, in a case where we're not trying to be punitive, like Mr. Anderson said, we want it to be fixed. We wish it hadn't happened. We want it to go back. We want to put the property in the state it should have been. So I will always, 100% of the time, offer, I'll just dismiss it if you would go to the HLC and make it like it was supposed to be. And their willingness to do that. And they might be willing to do it even if the cost is much higher than the maximum fine. If maybe it was just an accident or they were clueless or they feel bad or their neighbors are mad at them now and they don't want to move. And so they want to, you know, there's different reasons why they might do it. Or they have to report class misdemeanors to an ethical board. Yes, there's different, there's different reasons why they might want to come into compliance beyond just, they'll get their fine dismissed. The city can file this and a natural person can file this. Corporation file this? It has to be a, a lot. Yeah, okay. It has to be an individual human being that swears to the affidavit. It has to be based on personal knowledge. So, you know, you can't say, you know, a corporation can't say, "I saw something," it's an individual within the corporation. Okay, but the HLC is an entity or a code. Right, so individual on the HLC or just direct? I'm not saying we should. Well, yeah, yeah. I'm having a conflict there. A probable cause affidavit cannot be sworn to by a corporation. It has to be by a person. An individual. Okay, that's fine. Yes. It makes it easy, but curious. I mean, I think the major problem is flippers. You're kicking me over here. It's not, it's not, you know, I don't think it's individuals living there as much as people in flipper houses. And so they don't-- To make a profit. Right, so that's our issue mainly. I don't see it as an issue of, you know, people that, I mean, there are some that live there, but they're long, whether they're shorter, long-term, you know, flippers, that's the real issue. I have a question, this is something I should know when I go. In the code, who is liable? It's the homeowner, not a contractor or anyone else that needed to get the permit. It's the actual homeowner that's liable. Yes. Okay, so if they hire a company to do it and they say, "I'm not going to get a permit." These violations, yeah. Yeah, you're putting your homeowner in some risk there. Yeah, my contract said, you know, "I'll get the permit, this is how much it costs you." Because I had to pay for it. So, any questions about the municipal process? So, Cameron, you're going to be signing these, right? Yeah. The person is Cameron. Get ready, Stephanie. My cell phone is on 365-247. Oh, you poor thing. Oh, no, I don't want to bother you. I won't bother you. Stephanie will be like, "Why did I agree to come to the support meeting?" You got a new court on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays. There we go. 1 PM, oh, you got that one. Yes, 1 PM. Pop quiz. I have an animal services officer coming tomorrow to file several animal at large cases on behalf of a citizen in kind of the same idea. And this citizen, I'll give you an example, fines don't always work. This guy has 11 cases. He's hired Chris Jones. Oh. And he paid for some of them. And it's just dog at large. He just won't. And I'm just like, some people have, it's fair to say, I'm not saying anything, more money than sense. So, I'm just like, sometimes fines don't help people that don't feel like I'll just pay. I don't care how many times you find me. I'm just going to pay. What is this saying, a fine is just legal for a certain amount of money? We know what you are, and now we're just quibbling the load. Yeah, so we do that. I have city employees file cases for code violations for, and Caleb Norris is doing some for home occupation, a person who won't quit running their auto repair shop out of their driveway. Oh, wow. Okay. I think I know where that is too. We might, and a police officer actually was out there on complaint and got a body cam clip of the person, it was the defendant saying, yeah, I guess I should get a shot. So, we kind of put, like she was out on a parking violation call. So, she knew Caleb had gotten like, so there's all different kinds of ways you can get evidence. That's when I watch the body cam and I'm just like. You're done. You're toast. You're history. So, any questions for Stephanie or can we let her get back to her day? I have a busy cell phone. My husband, my husband has early onset Alzheimer's. So, my mom went to get, he can stay at home by himself, but he can't like drive to my mom's and meet me there. So, my mom went to get him. So, I'm going to meet there and we're all going to have dinner together. Well, thank you for coming. Okay, y'all have a great night. Thank you. Appreciate it. And Cameron, I'm sure we'll be speaking. Yes, I'll be in touch. She made sure to get all of our names and addresses. Yes. Yeah, I took that, I took the address. I thought nobody really needs to know if any of y'all filed this for you. Ron, do you need this over there? Okay, I can do that. Are you presenting Ron and Roy? Oh, well, I was going to say Roy has to make the announcement. Okay, next on our work session is ATLT 22-059. Receive a report and hold a discussion regarding DIN 2040 comprehensive plan. And... I was going to say, so, Roy. Ron is going to make the presentation. Well, thank you for the opportunity. Really, if you can do the next slide just real quickly. What we're doing here is really just to share with the HLC that on March 22nd of this year, the City Council of the City of Mordens approving the update to the comprehensive plan, the city's comprehensive plan. The list that you see there is really the major components of the comprehensive plan, starting with the community vision, the elements within the plan, all the way down to the action plan. And I have slides for each of these, so we won't go through all this, but then also talk about the update process. So for those that aren't familiar with the comprehensive plan, it's an overarching document that kind of gives guidance to all the other plans and documents that the city has to follow, such as, say, the historic preservation plan, the mobility plan, so all those are under the comprehensive plan. So again, it's an overarching document, again, sets the priorities for the community, mainly manages growth, and hopefully promotes reinvestment, improving the quality of life of our citizens as well. So you may ask, well, where does it fit in all of the plans and what we just talked about, some of the permits and the COA? Well, it's really the base, right? It's the start of where we look at when we look at how we want to implement our plans. So starting with the comprehensive plan, and above that is, again, back to our zoning area plans and site plans, that can include our historic preservation plan as well. And then above that is how we install or put in infrastructure and utilities, and then all the way up to certificate of occupancies and permits. The vision is, again, it's the first one, and that's why it's here listed as the first one, because it's an important one, a component of the comprehensive plan. It basically tells us what our vision for the city is for the next 15 to 20 years. And it's broken down by four strategic directions, the character, the people, the economy, and then just growth in general. So that's how it's broken down. We've got goals, policies, and actions throughout the comprehensive plan. Again, what it does is it implements the vision of the city through these goals, policies, and ultimately these actions that we have. I'll go through this fairly quickly. These are the elements that are in the comprehensive plan. The first one is the plan framework, basically what's existing conditions, what we anticipate those conditions to be. And then we get into lane use, economic, vitality, community character, and then parks, conservation, and environment. Community character, just really quickly, is where a lot of the historic preservation goals, policies, and actions are located. So that's why it's highlighted there, or it's at least mentioned there in this slide. So again, element four is where you will see most of the historic preservation policies and actions. We also have mobility, housing. Housing does have some preservation actions, community health, infrastructure, and utilities, and ultimately implementation and monitoring is the last element. So that describes all the elements in the comprehensive plan. But again, element four is an important one for this commission to review if you have the opportunity. Again, the next few slides are maps. Maps are always telling of where, you know, we want growth to happen and how it should happen. So the first map is really the growth pattern of where we want to see the city to grow in the next 15 to 20 years. You see that much of the core area is where development should occur. We do also have master plan communities, ropes and ranch as well, to the south and southwest. So those areas are growing as well. You know, the coal and hunter ranch are other master plan communities that will be coming on track pretty soon as well. But again, our main purpose is the core area. What's the purple light? I looked through that. I couldn't hear what the purple was. Yeah, purple is the industrial areas. So the heavy industrial and light industrial. So we also recognize that that's an industry that's growing tremendously right now. That's sort of what's really driving some of the development activities that we have in the city is that western portion of the city, we're seeing a lot of logistics centers, some light industrial manufacturing and fabrication. As someone said, our main industry that we have is Peterbilt. And so there's a lot of those associated or related industries that help serve that company. The future land use, you saw the growth area. This is the future land use map identifying where in the city the uses should occur. And so you see the area that Mary, you just mentioned where it's purple and light blue. Those are designated as heavy industrial, industrial commerce, as well as light industrial. So that area west of I-35 is where we're seeing a lot of that activity. One question on here. I couldn't figure out what it was. Maybe it just wasn't in planning. What's that? It's the part that's, gee, the area that I kind of consider home is something that's called neighborhood and university compatibility. Could you put that in English for me? Sure. Yeah, it's hard to see, but really it's that area that's the lighter blue around the university, for example, right there. So where the orange is, right? Well, let's see if I can make a point. Yeah, we're probably just about close to it. Yeah, it's right in here. Yeah, those are the ones I cared about. I couldn't figure out what that might mean since I live there. I care. Yeah, so the light blue is still neighborhood, university compatibility area. I think what you're referring to is maybe the neighborhood mix use just north of that. No, I want to know what university compatibility is in terms of what can go in there, because that seems a bit different than I was expecting to see. Yeah, so what that is is really the buffer area or the transition area between the university and the neighborhood, right, or the neighborhood to the university. So what we try to do there with the future land use designation that you see here is identify areas where if there is a zoning district or a plan that can help lessen the impact of the conflict between the two entities, the neighborhoods and the university. So it's a compatibility buffer area. It's just not the universities. It's just the developers. Well, right. So that's what's driving a lot of that. So that area is designated as a special area, and we need to focus on that. And we need to look at plans and zoning and other development standards to help lessen some of that impact that may come from some of the development that is associated, not necessarily with the university, like you said, but maybe indirectly based on some of the needs for your housing and all that. Well, it had a tremendous effect over in our neighborhood. Yes. So yeah, so it doesn't really drop down there, but the I-35 is sort of the buffer. But then you're right, it's slowly coming south of I-35. So yeah, so this is the uses that we propose or project that will develop and it helps guide any zoning change request or any development plan developments. This is the type of uses that should be in this area for the next, again, we plan for the 15 to 20 year. Well, I guess I want to ask a specific question because Backwood Flow Hospital used to exist and there was an apartment complex put on there, which we thought was kind of ugly at the time. They ripped down these beautiful trees, but across the street, there's the behemoth ugly. Yes. It was known for hospitals and they used it to make an apartment complex. Is the city going to go back and relook at what the zoning actually exists there so that we don't have another one of those ugly behemoths appearing because of a lack of zoning fix? Right. Yeah. So I know definitely that's something that when we, as you probably all know, back in 2019, we updated the zoning code. Part of that effort was also revisiting some of the zoning districts within the city. What we tried to do is address that specifically. Now there were direction from council that stated that if the zoning is X, it should easily transition to Y. And so we basically somewhat had our limitation on how we can change zoning to allow for that, you know, like you said, adjustment if we needed to. We definitely are still looking at those and there may be some city initiated zoning district changes that we can implement. We did that along I-35. We did that along university. We can certainly look at scripture as well as part of that effort. The original intent was for medical offices, not for a behemoth apartment complex. Right. So the zoning of that area just happened to, you know, be at that time zoned for a higher intensity. And again, multifamily was sort of covered under that zoning district. And that's how that was known for doctor's offices. And that's not what happened. Yeah. Also, when we were proposing or when we were drafting the conference plan update, there was a lot of discussion. Well, we have areas run for development. So shouldn't we have areas for preservation? And this is land preservation, not historic preservation. This is land preservation. So what the city did with city staff and the consultants, we identified areas that should be protected. You know, these are environmental sensitive areas. These are natural resources, designated floodplains and many other types of, you know, resources that we should protect and preserve. So we put this map together and this is again, helpful for anybody that's developing in the city to identify where areas should be protected. And obviously you see those major creeks, right? You got Cooper Creek to the north, you got Hickory Creek to the south. The concrete kind of goes right in the middle. But these are our major creeks and tributaries and associated with that are potential, you know, could be potential open space trails and other things like that. So this map gives the person that's, you know, looking at the conference plan an idea of where preferred land preservation should occur. Our last map that I have here is the future area concept map. These are, you know, specific areas that we want to see more evaluation or planning work. I can tell you that the city is in the process of doing an area plan for the northeast circle. That's one of our area plans that we're going to be working on. And also southeast end is another area that we're looking at doing an area plan. Cameron has been doing a lot of work there with, you know, some sign talkers, but there's a lot of activity in terms of some of the development around the downtown. And there's obviously some need for some protection and maybe some character preservation in that area. So we're looking for a small area plan, an area plan at least for that area to help again identify those assets that we want to protect and maybe also enhance as well. So a lot of work is being done, but this map here illustrates all those specific years in the city. There's a lot, but we're slowly going to try to get to them. But the main ones that we're are targeting at this moment is the northeast end, a lot of development happening there, as well as southeast as we see development and redevelopment occurring in that particular area. What are the red lines? The red lines are the corridors, corridor plans. So are you referring to the darker red lines or the circles? Oh, the darker red lines. Yeah, so those are corridor plans. So, you know, you have like centers where, you know, you can identify neighborhoods or, you know, commercial or employment areas. But sometimes they follow a corridor. So the red ones are, starting from the bottom, you've got Teasley, you've got Fort Worth and Dallas Drive, you also have Mayhill on the west, I'm sorry, the east. You've got Hickory and Oak, so you're already hitting my nerves right now. Yeah, so they go through there. I think that's Oak, if I'm not mistaken, and then University that runs east-west. Yeah, just where I wanted in front of my front door. Well, again, it's a plan, right? So it's not necessarily saying it's got to be a commercial or it's got to be a higher intensity. It's really to identify that area of focus and do more planning to identify where we, if there's protections, then we can do protection measures. If there's enhancement, we can do that as well. So it goes both ways. Right in front of my house, though. I'm going to be keeping a good eye out on that. Okay. Yeah. So if you're looking at a certain area where you think there may be cultural or historical items, areas that need to be protected, what role, if any, does HLC play in that planning process? A big role. I mean, I think this is partly why when we come here is really the comprehensive plan gives you sort of the vision, right? It helps you. I mean, obviously HLC has their task, but hearing from the citizens, and really this is what the comprehensive plan presents, is that vision from the citizen, ultimately the city, and what they would like to see is certain areas where they should be protected. Now that overarching document, the comprehensive plan, does inform other plans such as the historic preservation plan. And then within that historic preservation plan, think of it as an even lower area or lower elevation of planning. And so that's another document that this HLC should be very aware of, or I'm sure they are, you are, because it does identify those next areas where preservation should occur. So I was going to piggyback on what Ron is saying, is that I'm actually going to plan a boot camp, I think it's next month, where we're going to go through the preservation plan, kind of looking at those key areas of interest that were implemented in 2019 when it came forward and was passed by city council. So that we can kind of start working towards those goals and those action plans as an HLC. So I just wanted to throw that in real quick. You have red circles and blue circles. So right, so that's a good question. The red circles are more related to centers like commercial employment centers. The blues are more like gateways or travel centers. So as you look at them, there are areas where travelers would come through or citizens would come to the city. And so we've identified areas where it could be marketed or it could be branded as an entry or a gateway into the city. So those are the blue circles. This is the second map that shows 288 going west from 35. Yeah, that's what I saw too. So is that actually the contracts are let or is that still? You know, when I first joined here, the city, gosh, 17 years ago, I was told that it was going to be done in 10 years, right? Well, that was actually 17 years ago. But it is my understanding that they're actually in the process of purchasing property and it will be let sometime, you know, gosh, in a couple of years. So I mean, you work with the properties and then you got utilities you got to deal with. And so as soon as those are all set, the actual construction will begin. And it's going to start on the north side of the city and work its way south on the west side of the airport, ultimately, lining back on to back to I-35W through the whole of the coal and hunter master plan community, which they have as part of their master plan. So yeah, that's, yeah, that's going to be a loop that hopefully completes that circle. Oh, no, but it's not quite complete. What's missing is the part from 35 over to the rest of the south part. Yeah, the south part loop is kind of missing, which I don't think will ever happen. There's a lot of development already there. I think what we're thinking of what is being thought of is maybe using Hickory Creek as sort of that connection, but it's not going to be a thoroughfare freeway like the loop is right now. The action plan, we kind of talked about this a little bit already. Obviously, the conference plan contains a lot of actions. There's a table called the action plan and it lists all of the actions that's included in the conference plan. And we just have this table to help us sort of evaluate and monitor the implementation of the conference plan. I can tell you that the HLC, the Historic Landmark Commission, and I think Mr. Cooper may have references of there are some actions here in the plan that kind of goes back to HLC and your responsibility. And that could also tie back to the Historic Preservation Plan or maybe some actions that are more, you know, sooner than later. So those are things that we hope and I'll work with Garry to bring some of those forward and share that with you. But as I looked at the conference plan, I identified 18 references of the Historic Landmark Commission as partners in getting those actions implemented. The next three slides really quickly is I went through the conference plan and just identified what and how the HLC or historic preservation is referenced. And I can tell you that it's referenced in the community vision statement, as you can read here on the second bullet. Obviously, in the core of DEN, we see established neighborhoods where revitalization and compatible infill development contributes to the stable, livable, and historic character that fosters neighborhood pride and homeownership. So that is a part of our vision that we want to foster neighborhoods and also our historic character. Also, the three historic districts are referenced in the conference plan. Obviously, it's an important historic resource that we have and we want to make sure that we identify and continue those efforts in protecting those historic structures within those historic districts. The preservation plan we already mentioned. And then I listed all the different elements or the elements at least that have actions related back to historic preservation. So I won't go through all of them. I just want to show that there are actions in land use, economic, conservation, environment, as well as housing where there's historic preservation actions listed. And again, as I mentioned earlier, element four, which is community character and urban design, has the majority of the historic preservation actions. In fact, it has more policies and actions. You see that there's policies identified there in relationship to identifying more historic resources, preservation of historic resources, financial incentives, property maintenance, historic tourism and urban design. And again, a lot of these higher overarching goals policies are further implemented through the historic preservation plan. So Cameron and I and others looked at the comprehensive plan and the historical preservation. There's no conflict there. They're working in sync. And we hope to, again, as Cameron mentioned, maybe next month, start to share some of those actions in its part of the historic preservation plan to then hopefully have the commission give direction to move forward with some of those actions. Lastly, I think my last slide is just to share with you all. It was an update just, again, adopted in March of this past year. We looked at a lot of different public input. Of course, with COVID, it was somewhat difficult. But in the end, we were able to have a public open house. That's the photo that you see there. And there was a lot of engagement with the community. And ultimately, again, we adopted this plan in March of this year. That's it. So just really want to provide an overview of the comprehensive plan. And again, touch on the Historic Landmark Commission's role in this. And ultimately, in my opinion, and also Cameron's opinion is that the historic preservation plan is really where you all should focus. But again, the historic preservation plan is consistent with the comprehensive plan and the vision of the city. I hope that makes sense. Well done. That was such a long plan. I thought we were going to be here for three hours. I wanted to keep it short, but concise as well. Well, that's helpful. Thank you. And I failed to mention, I should have put it on there. If you have interest in, obviously the comprehensive plan is attached as part of the backup. But if you want, it's also on our website. And I can have Cameron send you the link to where that is so that you can easily access it and then review it during your leisurely time. Free time. Okay. Thank you. Okay. The next thing on our work session agenda, HLC 22-058, hold a discussion regarding the historic landmark commission project matrix. So the one thing that I wanted to bring forward, obviously, this is the matrix for you all to work with and add things to in terms of requests. But I did add a request for myself is regarding this discussion of the benefits of having, or no, sorry, the 2011 West Oak Street in the DDC 2.9.5 that I sent last week regarding confirmation of interest in bringing forward a 10-day notice. I only received feedback from three commissioners, two were for, one against. So I'm just trying to get confirmation from the rest of the commissioners who did not participate in that email, whether or not we need to bring that forward with a 10-day notice. So this would be a 10-day notice from the historic preservation officer myself. I'd be sending it to the homeowner asking for compliance and fixing up their windows and making sure that, you know, removing the boards because currently there is just plywood covering the windows. So making sure that they get those windows fixed and that, you know, they're kind of holding up the standards of the historic district. And if not, then they would need to come in front of HLC for a hearing. I remember the message at the time, but it wasn't clear to me what was wrong, what was going on with, they weren't getting it done. So from my understanding, there has been plywood in some of these windows. So it was covering the windows. It's been, there's been multiple complaints since October. The most recent one was in April. And I guess even the property owners nearby have asked if they can even purchase the property so that they can fix it up and make sure that it's kind of being held to the certain standards of maintenance within the historic district. But currently it's just plywood that's been painted white. It is covering the windows themselves. So, and it's a vacant property. Yes, there's a lot of room. So we have no idea if, you know, the water is probably still going in, you know, damaging the inside because there was broken window panes. So some of the photos and what I talked to the code enforcement officer, they said that there was kind of the wooden frames were disintegrating. So, and that there were broken window frames and that basically the plywood was just put up to kind of help keep it, you know, being further damaged from the environment, but it wasn't fully enclosing the area. So who knows what damage is being done to the inside. Obviously when I emailed you all, it says it, usually it's brought forward due to, you know, fear of structural damage. So we could, that could be, you know, the issue that's at hand. No one's been inside. And these have, this complaint started in October and it's now April or the most recent one was in April and now we're in May and they have still not complied. The windows were not up. The panes were broken. That I did not see. But I couldn't see it. Yeah. So I guess, um, in the side in the rear is where the front is. It's uglier than, I just didn't realize it was broken. Yeah. So the window panes are broken. So it's just, that's why I brought it to you all. So this could be another step in kind of making sure that, you know, people realize that you all are here and that people need to be maintaining their properties as expected within the historic district. Any conversation with the owner of this property? Yes. So there has been conversations with, from code enforcement with the property owner. Um, he has stated that he wanted to fix it up and put his son in there, but he has used that same kind of discussion and had that same discussion multiple times, I guess, since October. And that's kind of been his main argument is that he, he's going to get there and he's going to fix it up and it's going to go to his son. And then it was his mom's home and he doesn't want to give it up. But at the same time, he's not necessarily maintained property. So can we do like options? What do we do now? So if we have at least, you know, a quorum who votes to have, uh, me do the, uh, 10 day notice, then I would tomorrow put together a 10 day notice. Marcella would review it to make sure everything's in order legally. And then I would send it to the property owner stating that you need, I need a response to hear from you within 10 days. If not, we will be calling you to the HLC for public hearing. Okay. And what do we actually do? So you all would be providing a, um, basically, I would say, can we just make sure I'm giving you the right information. Um, but Marcella's gonna pull it up from, but from what I remember and what I'm understanding is that you all would give him direction of what needs to be done. And if he does not comply, then he would have to come back with an appeal, which I believe would then go to city council. But I'm going to let Marcella confirm that because I don't want to give you all the wrong information. Well, has someone from HLC has, uh, not the commission really, but staff, have they gone out and expected to see what's needed though? So code enforcement has been up there basically saying, you know, this is a hazard to the property. It's vacant property. You have broken window panes. You're, um, I guess there was also a complaint of multiple animals living under the homes and they had a board up along their foundation. I mean, close that because they had, you know, kind of infestation. Um, so that it's just been in code enforcement. I've driven by have not gone on the property itself. Um, but if we want to move forward, then I can ask, um, the code enforcement officer who's been taking calls specifically for this property. If I can go out with her and walk the property just to see what exactly the issues are. Cause I just have photos currently at the moment. It looked like it improved a little bit because it wasn't just basic plywood. It was white plywood, but the broken windows are very concerning. Yeah. So basically procedurally what'll happen is they'll give a 10 day notice letter. Um, and then, yeah, if there doesn't seem to be improvement within those 10 days, then we'll hold a public meeting at our next, it would be the June meeting. Yes. Um, to discuss whether the structure is structurally unsound or an imminent danger of becoming structurally unsound. So that gives the homeowner opportunity to give evidence that their remedy up to this point is either satisfactory to prevent further decay, or there's not the issue that, you know, the deterioration that we're seeing from the outside, maybe it, it looks worse because we don't know what the inside looks like. Um, so that meeting, he would present, present evidence to you all. So the burden's on him. Yeah. So the burden's on, on him. And, um, ultimately you guys will be making the determination. Cameron can bring information as well. If she wants to, there's no real like procedural setup for the meeting, but essentially at the end of the meeting, what you'll be asked to is instead of our normal three options, you'll have to make a finding that their structure is structurally unsound or in danger of becoming structurally unsound. And no valid reason exists as to why they cannot undertake the repairs that are needed. Um. So is the assumption that it's unsound unless he could prove otherwise? Um, so the, no, the, it's only unsound if you guys make a finding that is unsound. It's kind of hard. But what would we base it on? Keep you providing evidence. The evidence he provides and then if code enforcement provides their evidence as well. Um. What was the long term outcome? I, if we do say that. Right. Yeah. So that's the next step. No problem. Um, so if they get that notification, then we would provide information on what necessary repairs would need to be done. Um, and then yeah, so they have to make those repairs within 90 days. And if not, if not, then, um, so it, well, if they don't make the repairs, then it's a code violation, which is what we talked about earlier today. But if they, there are valid reasons why the owner cannot make their repairs, then we would actually go directly to city council. So we would say this building is unsafe. This owner isn't able to make the repairs either because of economic hardship or, you know, the windows don't, can't be made for 16 weeks or something, which is valid because getting windows right now, it takes a really long time. So if there's a reason why, you know, that 90 day period just isn't going to work, we can, uh, you basically have to go to city council with the reasons why they're not going to be able to comply with the 90 day upkeep requirement. Um, and then city council will take action. Um, they can, they have a lot more broad powers than we do, so they can kind of take whatever action they see fit. That's the way this is drafted, but essentially we would provide a recommendation to them as to what, why they, why the homeowner, if there are valid reasons why they can't make the repairs themselves, and then what recommendations we would be bringing to city council as a board. Um, but that's only if you find that there are reasons why the owner cannot make the necessary repairs. Um, and then if they don't agree with our ruling, they can appeal within 60 days to the city council. I mean, I just looked up Denton CAD to find out the ownership status, right? I mean, they list that as their address for the, the, the, the owner. Correct. Why do you say that nobody lives there? They don't. We know that they, uh, code enforcement didn't give me too much information, but we do know the gentleman lives in Southridge neighborhood. Okay, now years ago when I was on the affordable housing, well, you were there. We had access to some CVG funds to use in situations to, for people, for grants to individuals to do something. So that might be something that we would direct city council to review and see if there are, yeah, to see if there are a funding source where the city could potentially sponsor. I'm not sure, I'm not sure if it's available for rental properties. A rental. Okay. I mean, well, I don't know if this wasn't a rental. Well, it's not his home. Correct. It's not his home and he'd be giving it. I, I don't know how rental property is necessarily defined because as of what I know right now, he would own the property and his son would just live there. I don't think he would necessarily be renting it from. Well, but he would not be. Yes. I don't think, but there might be, yeah. So, but at the end of the day, it's like not really within our purview necessarily to know if there's funding sources available. It would be if city council wanted to direct staff to investigate funding or if there's, um, if they are eligible for either the homeowner improvement program or CBGP funds. Is it true that they could ultimately put the house up for sale? Yes. Yes. Ultimately, if you don't do anything, it gets listed and sold. Okay. That was what I was trying to figure out. Okay. That's what will happen to it. If, if they don't come forward is so we gotta be careful that we do it right. Right. Now at this point, we're info information gathering. Come talk to us, help us. We'll see what we can do. And you're at, so what you're asking us is for a motion or at least a vote to authorize you to send a 10 day letter to get him to our, him or her, to our genius. So the way the ordinance is drafted and it says the HLC may require the HPO to send the letter. So we would need an action of the HLC, which would require at least four of you. Would it be a summons? I mean, is the person required to show? No, no, no. Cause they, um, there's actually provisions that they don't show up. We send them a letter as to what our recommendations are. Um, so they're not required to come. Um, but it is kind of a way to put them on notice that we need more information. I think particularly in this, you correct me if I'm wrong, cause we're not able to see inside the home. So maybe he's able to bring pictures of inside each of the windows and the wall looks fine. There's no evidence of damage from the windows and maybe that impacts y'all's review of the concern. So I think it's, it is still at the 10 day notice. It is that fact finding stage. And we can always say like, if he comes and it doesn't seem like it's as bad as it looks from the outside, then we can just say, you know, fix it when you can, but there's no requirement to meet that 90 day. You don't have to find it. So we're just assuming what's going on on the inside, right? Well, yeah. And if he doesn't, if he chooses not to show up, we can still take the same action. Like you can decide as a majority, there's not enough information to show that it's correct. Right. So we just have code enforcement and all the different complaints that have come in. We have their photographs and then what we have is basically all our information is from code enforcement and the neighbors who are, and if he doesn't show them when that's our information, right? Correct. Yes. That'd be your evidence. So there's not a report, if you will, from code enforcement. So I can ask them for a report, you know, that I can provide once, you know, that can be prior. So if you guys do not want to decide on this until a report is actually given from code enforcement, we can do it that way and I can just present it in June. I wasn't asking for it to be delayed. Okay. Okay. So, but so yes, so code enforcement can put together, you know, a packet of information that they have, the code, the complaints that they've received, and then I can send that to you all, you know, during the 10 day process as well. Because I've received some of that information, as I said, that I shared with you all, but I haven't asked for a formal report, but I can ask for that. And I will say if we decide to take this action today, unless you all choose to have an emergency meeting, they would have more than 10 days to provide information because our next meeting isn't scheduled until, I believe it's June 13th. So we can't make that decision now because it's not part of the agenda, right? Right. Well, you can direct her to issue the notice, but we can't decide if we want to take an emergency meeting or anything like that. Correct. So if they come to you, the three things you said we would be choosing between were finding that it was in danger and it was falling apart and, or that it could be, or one or the other. So the finding is whether the structure is structurally unsound or an imminent danger of becoming structurally unsound. Okay, that's one option. Those are the, or not. Oh, I see. Oh, oh. So you find that it is one of those two things. Or you don't make a finding. Okay. Or we postpone it to another agenda or we postpone it indefinitely because I think we have the right to postpone anything you bring. Well, the question is, how do we back away if we get there? You just wouldn't make a finding and then it would end. Yes, correct. And then it would be done. And I have a question, Cameron, you can send us that 10-day letter if we agree that it shouldn't be issued. Yes. Thank you. This is just more of an overall thing. I'm curious, how is it that we can have, make a decision as the board to request staff to send this letter outside of an agenda item? Because it was on the matrix. Okay, so as long as it's, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So basically- We're not making a finding. Yeah, we're not making a finding. It's more of just confirming the interest and sending a 10-day notice. Okay. Yeah. So we wouldn't put anything on the agenda like this if it were like a full COA or like something that requires like a public hearing or more of an open meeting. Right. But because this is just directing Cameron to make a decision, we're just being extra safe to put it on the matrix because you never know. But technically- No, that's why this one has to know. I don't know of any- I may have voted as a way I would change my vote probably based on new information from this. Okay. But because it's not a motion, I don't think we need a second. I think we can go straight to a vote. Yeah, we just need, you know, whoever's interested. Okay. So the only thing in the paper of Cameron issuing now a 10-day notice indicate by raising your hand unless you count them. So you have five and five. Okay. So then I will put together the 10-day notice. I'll send it to you all so you can read it prior to me sending it out. And I will also make sure that I get a report from code enforcement with all that information. Yes. Who is the property owner? His name is Thibodeau. He's owned this house according to the deed since 2010. Oh my goodness. It's on here. I mean, Denton Cat tells me he's had it since 2010. He lives on a ridge whatever crest circle in Southridge. It's not the fancy part of Southridge, but. What is the address? Do we know? 2011 is where he lived. Oh, it's 1501 ridge crest circle. Okay. So I might have a conflict, although I don't think so. They bought that house from my parents in 1984. 1501. Oh, yeah. The mom and dad lived there for. So am I conflicted? I don't think so, but I don't know. We can't make a determination if you're conflicted or not. You're actually not. Okay, I was like, I'm going to. I think you have no relationship to them, Roy. No, I did not. Also, I'm actually preempted from making a determination. So the answer is it depends. Okay, so all right. I believe we need a motion to adjourn. Well, is there anything else on the major? I don't think so. I motion to adjourn. Second. Those in favor? We're out of here. They're out of here. Thank you very much.