Feb 09, 2022 Planning and Zoning Commission on 2022-02-09 10:00 AM (Work Session)

Good morning and welcome to the City of Denton's Planning and Zoning Commission meeting for Wednesday, February 9th 2022. This is our work session and with a quorum present I will call us to order at 10.02 a.m. Let the record show that Vice Chair Smith and Commissioner Anderson are absent. We've got two reports on our work session today so we'll bring up the first one which is Receive a Report, Hold a Discussion, Give Staff Direction regarding the Draft 2022 Mobility Plan. Hello Becky. Good morning. Becky Devaney, City Engineer, Director of Capital Projects. Thank you so much for having me today. I am going to get started by sharing my screen. Sorry it's harder to see. There we go. Alrighty. So as you can see from the first slide we're here to talk about the Draft 2022 Mobility Plan update. I know we came before you I guess about a month ago to talk specifically about the the latest update that we had made. Today myself along with Nathan George our Senior Planner Bicycle ADA Pedestrian Coordinator and Preetem Deshmukh of our Transportation Planning Department will be here to present the information to you. Preetem and I will share the presentation but of course we know there's going to be questions and so we're all three here to help you. Brief overview I can go really quick with this. We're going to talk about our key focus of the Mobility Plan, what we heard from the comments that we received, talk a little bit about the types of master plans the city has and why it's so important to have a Mobility Plan, the function of the transportation system, that holistic view of a Mobility Plan and then some of the comment responses that we received. I will make mention that we've received comments from council meeting yesterday. I'll try to update you with those. We also have received comments Sunday and Monday and Tuesday that we're working through so we have not had that opportunity to address comments that have come in this week completely so we're still working through that process. It does take a little bit of time to evaluate each one. So first things first, what we heard from council on our January 25th presentation was safety is the key and most important component of the Mobility Plan. So we want you also to understand that we heard loud and clear the city council's recommendation. Although the goals were not in any kind of hierarchical order, we did go ahead and take goal number seven based on the recommendations we received and move it to goal number one. We understand the travel needs and priorities of the Mobility Plan, really safety is first. So we appreciate that comment. I will mention yesterday in the meeting with council not only do they want safety to be first, they'd like for us to move the language to be more proactive than reactive and so we are working on updating that section to make maybe a little bit more of an aggressive statement throughout that entire goal section talking about how safety is so important and so we will share that information with you as we get that updated. Just a little bit of an overview. I know you're all aware of this. You see this, you hear this as you sit on this board. I'm sorry commission and really think through you know the different types of plans the city has. You've seen these, you've heard us talk about them. You know obviously Ditten Water Utilities has water master plans. They're working on a wastewater master plan. Our team's working on a stormwater master plan. Solid Waste is working on an update. We even have an urban forest master plan. I know you're all very aware of that but really these different plans are what make the city move in the right direction from a planning perspective. They do exactly what they say. We plan our work so we can work those plans. The mobility plan specifically having that multimodal bicycle auto pedestrian. I want to make sure you understand that the two that you see circled in red, the Ditten plan 2040 and the parks trails master plan have been working in concert with each other really to move us through this process. This has not been a project that has been done in isolation. This has been something that we work as a team and I will tell you it has been really a great experience working with everyone together to get these plans working as succinctly as we have. The purpose of a mobility plan, I think we all know the purpose. I wanted to hit home on this because some of the comments we received from council on our January 25th presentation are really specific to why are we doing this and what is all what are the next steps. So you know really I want to make sure everyone understands it is a multimodal transportation plan. You know we take the time to focus in on the thoroughfare plan. We're worried about where the future roadways are going to go. You know that's one-third of the project. It's also looking at the pedestrian and the bicycle to make that that holistic view and the plan is really to accommodate that growth over the next 30 years. I really like this graphic that we have. This is the cog graphic that shows you the mobility plan 2045 that Cogs currently updating. The reason why I bring it to your attention if you look in Denton County you're going to see that outer loop that's connecting to 35. That's also shown on our mobility plan. The reason why I want you to see that is it's connecting Denton County to Colling County to Hunt County. So you understand that these are not closed systems. These are connected systems between these different counties. You also can see loop 288 West. Obviously we're all aware of 35 E 35 W and then of course at the Golden Triangle where it becomes 35. But understand the reason why we want to work together and we show these types of graphical representations on our mobility plan are from the perspective that these are regional transportation networks that also helps us secure the state and federal funding that's needed to help with the growth of these projects as they come along. Flexibility of a mobility plan. So I'll be honest a lot of the comments that we've received not only over the last couple of months but throughout the entire process that I've been involved with the mobility plan is really talking about you know the road the line you show on the map shows the road going directly through my house my pond my you know XYZ. We understand that. We hear you loud and clear. It's the same comments that we've received also from council. These are roadway alignments of proposed networks particularly in greenfield areas they can be adjusted. I'm going to show you an example in a minute you were a part of. I just I want you to understand their graphical schematic representations that help us align with where we're going to have future roadways. They also help us with the process of collecting roadway impact fees because they show these are the areas of which we think future roadways are going to need to be developed. They also align with the Denton County thoroughfare plan and the overall tech stock thoroughfare plan. These roadways are long time or long-term needs like I talked about it this is a 30-year plan. Many of these roadways I may not see in my lifetime even being constructed which is crazy to think but that's exactly what it is. They won't be constructed tomorrow but they're going to be constructed as development comes along and we have to plan appropriately. They'll turn in either to a project that's done as part of a development project and then maybe another portion of it will be a capital project or they may be decided that there's a capital project that needs to be developed in that area. So those are the two different ways we can deliver those. You know this mobility plans are updated every five years. We do have the opportunities to make amendments before those five-year timeframes. It's very critical that we get this update completed from the standpoint that not only is it time because it's a 2015 plan that was adopted in 2016 but it's also time because we need to get those roadway impact fees moved to the next step and those are in the process and need to be updated. Talk a little bit about roadway function. I'm going to turn it over to Preetem and he's going to come up and talk to you about it. What I want to mention to you is a lot of the comments we received from council and I'm going to specifically focus in on an area and I'm going to turn it over to him but we got a lot of comments about can a primary arterial turn into two secondary arterials or can a secondary arterial turn into two collectors. There's reasons why each one of the roadway classifications are developed in the manner of which they can. Keep in mind the difference between a primary arterial and a secondary arterial is really the right-of-way width and a six-lane to four-lane but with that context sensitive design we can design what needs to be built based on the capacity needs and the designing from the traffic impact analysis within that right-of-way. I will mention to you several of the concerns that we received from council yesterday. We're specifically in the northeast quadrant where they've asked us to go back and evaluate based on what we've shared with this message from the roadway function and the classifications Preetem is going to go over with you. In the northeast quadrant of town we will be making some updates and evaluating that. We've already had several meetings since the council meeting yesterday. We've had several conversations even today as a staff and as a team of what can we do to address some of those concerns. We'll be bringing that back to you Monday during our joint session but just wanted to mention that to you. So I'm going to turn it over to Preetem. He's going to give me a breather let me get a drink and we're going to talk through the next types of roadway classifications. Thank you Preetem. Thank you Becky. Good morning everyone. Preeten Deshmukh, Transportation Planning. And yeah as Becky mentioned really what I'm trying to get to is some basic concepts of transportation planning and principles that we planners and engineers use to define these networks. So start with a little bit of what what are these roadways? What is their main function? And their primary function they have two primary functions. It's access providing access to people's houses homes or driveway on a local street or a business or a retail. That's that's access piece is one piece. The other piece is mobility. If someone wants to go from point A to point B or someone wants to commute to work that that is mobility. So roadways have two primary functions and based on those two functions they are categorized into four different types. And if you see on the map on this graphic on the right side you can see it's a graph that actually represents axis on the y-axis the vertical axis and then mobility on the x-axis horizontal. And if you look at the actual curve it's comprised of different colors. The first color on the top is blue and that represents local roadways. These are roadways that are in front of your houses. These are roadways that are really small roadways that just have driveways and axis on them. And majority of the roadways within the city 75% of them are these local roadways that that's their primary function is provide access. The second class is collectors. Those are if you look at that those are the orange shaded area of the map. But it comprises approximately 10% of roadway systems. And if you see them they have a little bit of higher mobility in built in them. So not only they provide access but also they provide that mobility from from taking someone from their home or in there from their neighborhood to a place where it connects to a higher denomination of a classification roadway system. So those are collectors. If you move to the next step which is yellow it's minor arterials they constitute about 10% of our system approximately. And now you see that their function is slowly getting more into mobility and less into access. And then the last one which is principal arterials or primary arterials their function is more of mobility. Getting a person from where they live to their destination where they work or where they live to if they want to visit someone or if they want to go to a specified mall or a shopping complex destinations throughout the region. So based on all these classifications when a roadways design when you actually get into design we have to define the function. If we don't define the function and design appropriately that's where we have issues. In older communities you see the function was defined differently by the time growth happened and things happened around it now the function has changed and that's why you have some areas that don't function the way they were supposed to because the access and the use or the function itself has changed. So that's why it's very important to at the planning level to make sure that all the design features are are intended to match what that roadway will be functioning as. And as Becky mentioned context sensitive design when we talk about that when we are defining some of these roadway types for example in arterial when we were talking about the function the speed itself the the actual classification does not necessarily relate to the speed. So we can have a classification that is higher higher classification that provides mobility that provides that larger roadway or capacity but it can still be designed for lower speeds it can still and that's exactly what context sensitive design so that's part that so there that needs to be an appropriate balance between these competing functions because they're competing when you have access people slow down to get into someone's driveway and when you have mobility people want to move a little bit quicker so that's where we have to design them appropriately. Getting on to the next slide why do we need all of these different types of functional classification roadways so we need them to actually provide the greatest degree of safety and efficiency so there are two aspects as I mentioned there are competing functions if we provide a network that is just providing access and in slower speeds there will be a lot of congestion if there if we just provide freeways and larger arterials there'll be a lot of speeding around and less access people won't so there has to be that balance and we have to define when we're planning roadways and communities that we have to define that there is an appropriate balance so if someone wants to live in Denton and they a lot of people don't necessarily live and work at the same place they do so when they have to go from point A to point B there has to be a system that lets them do that and if we start converting all these larger materials into collectors or secondaries a person trying to get out to the destination will have that much difficulty because of the congestion so these are all the different things that need to be taken into account when we're planning the system and that's why this is just a quick update on the transportation planning concepts and now I'll turn it back to Becky. Thank you. Thank you Preeten. So I wanted to talk about you all know my favorite buzzword is holistic I use it all the time you know my partner and deputy director Rachel Wood of Capital Projects I know you all know she recently took on a new position but before she left she gave me a bracelet with the word holistic on it because it's our buzzword so it's our word together so I have to continue to use it and share so thank you for letting me share that story but the holistic view of a mobility plan I mean I mentioned this when I first started the presentation it's not just lines on a map right so we take the time to really focus in the thoroughfare plan the lines on the map the bike and ped and all the efforts and I'll tell you the the lineshare of that's been done by Nathan because he has a lot of great ideas of how we can make this a multimodal community and so it's not just the map if you take the time to read the plan there's a lot of goals of it in objectives within there of course we want to facilitate alternate train transportation opportunities that's that bike and ped we want to prioritize safety you heard me say and we heard from council safety is their top priority that's the reason why we moved the goal we want to deliver an effective network of travel you just heard pre to him talk about it when you think about how you leave your neighborhood and you go from a residential street a collector on to a some type of arterial eventually maybe to get to I-35 you know to commute to wherever you're headed to that's the common travel pattern and then leverage leveraging innovation of course that's always something that we want to do to evaluate so with each within each one of the goals and you know we have nine goals we also have multiple strategies we have multiple objectives that we want to work through I did mention like I said with councils ideas yesterday and comments that we received not only are we going to move goal one goal seven to go one we're also going to go ahead and be very much more aggressive with the language that we use on that goal so this is really just to try to help you understand yes we have a plan yes it has beautiful pictures and a lot of pretty words and a lot of goals yes we have the maps but really essentially these are working together in concert with each other to make this to make this a successful plan hey Becky can I interrupt you for a second absolutely on that note because we seem to get caught up in that number and what should be one and that kind of thing did anyone think of making it ABCD dot dot dot instead of one two three so we don't get lost and what might be a priority and not since it's all a priority you know we've thought about several different things of how do we approach that do we bowl you know the word safety you know what do we do but no right I think we're getting stuck on it and it's kind of silly because obviously that's a goal I mean they're all goals it's all part of this holistic look at this it has to be so yeah I've just in just didn't know if that yeah it was thought about that like let's get rid of the number because people seem to get stuck on well if it's not number one it can't it's not the best thing but right so they don't make it one two three so people can think differently no I understand and I think that's a very valid comment and I appreciate that you know I think that in general we think in number order and that's the reason why we got well why is number seven you know and that's the purpose of it wasn't a hierarchy you know it was really just a list of an order of goals so basically a bulleted list is I'm sure what the intent was it was originally yes and then you know it's like well how do we make this be organized in a fashion where it's understandable okay but I do like I do like that idea so we're gonna continue to kind of work work through those so and that's really why I took on that on this last slide I'll tell you you know these are the four categories that then break into the separate individual goals and of course as you can see you know safety is of course one of those four major categories that we then break into those individual goals but no I appreciate that comment so I wanted to move from that holistic view that mobility plan that map that plan that talks about how are we going to do these goals how are we going to use these strategies how are we going to move through this process this is a 30-year plan to how do we go from a plan at a policy document into a design so what I want to focus in on is when we move from that planning level document and this happens to us every single day right we see oh yes there's a line on a map we know there may be a future roadway there we as staff then take it from being a plan and that's the reason why I wanted you to see there's so many different plans that the city has we start to work that plan how we start to work that plan is not only using that as our guidance document our policy document to then work through looking at the Denton Development Code what does the code say what are the land use assumptions how is that area supposed to grow what is the transportation criteria manual say how is that roadway supposed to be designed what are the options we look at you know safety we look at the different the different speed you know the different roadways need to be you know we then we move from you know the different classifications of lanes etc into that specification book that's the third thing you see that tells us how we're going to build the road to what type of material it's going to be and ultimately the standard details you know those show all the different types of roadway cross sections and really you know is it a modified primary arterial is it a standard primary arterial so there are wonderful guidance documents and I know y'all have seen these because you approved the criteria manuals and I know you're aware of the specifications and the code of course and the standard details but that is how we go from the process of taking something from a plan and moving it through whether it's the development process or the capital planning process from an idea and a plan through that design phase to really get the engineering that's needed to make sure that that road is designed I will mention to Commissioner Prud I know you've made a lot of comments we've also received a lot of other comments specifically related to the Vision Zero and the safety measures all of those weren't able to be incorporated in this year's transportation criteria manual when we made the update but we know we're doing the citywide speed study we know that that information should be ready towards late summer August September timeframe for us to be able to prepare and bring that information back we do anticipate there's going to be some updates to the criteria manual knowing that safety is a priority speed study is going to help us with that information we're working with pre-tem on those Vision Zero ideas as we work through those ideas we'll work to incorporate those into our guidance documents that we use this is really our playbook I guess you should say so I told you I was going to give you an example of how a line on the map becomes a project you know this is an existing area this is 35 and loop 288 West and you can see this green line right here on the map and it was a pretty you know fairly straight but it was connecting point a to point B so winds are on the east across on over on the west what you see is when this development came through they came to the city and said if we try to design that roadway in alignment with the way that it's shown on the map we think we're missing the mark would you consider looking at an evaluating and changing that roadway to the line with some existing roadway structures that are already in that area and we said yeah that makes a lot of sense it's just a lot on a map let's evaluate it let's see what happens so we were able to evaluate it that and say you know what that does make sense we're not only bringing from the eastern side as the Windsor improvements are going to be made we know 35 is going to have a bridge at Windsor and then we know that as you can you traverse across that area it makes more sense to go within an existing roadway area and not cut this individual's property in half and make it where it's a little bit less developable so that's a good really good example from our mind as to how a line on the map actually worked itself through the process during that development phase that then turned into you know you know something that this project could move forward with the comment response log was included as exhibit 3 in your backup I know we got a lot of comments our team worked the best we could with receiving the comments to address the different classifications of roadways that safety is that number one priority talking about some examples that we saw there were some specific examples on ideas of Thunderbird was one of them per se that the question was well why does it turn up north and connect to Windsor instead of continuing east and just connect to Bonnie Bray you know what valid point we looked at it we evaluated we think that we are going to look at making that update to connect directly to Bonnie Bray also similarly I just showed you a few of the other examples Mingo Road came up a lot of questions about Mingo Road you know it's currently a CIP project that we have at about 30% design so a lot of the questions that were asked Alma Locas was also asked I'll mention to you on a previous mobility plan it was shown as a primary arterial and we're working through and on the the current mobility plan it's a lower classification and we're working through as a city looks to possibly take that as a turn back from text dot how do we change the character of Alma Locas Nathan has a lot of ideas of how to get the bicycle and pedestrian network through that area so a lot of the comments we received were specific to that a lot of them were design related so that's the reason why I wanted to show you the criteria manuals and and really talk a lot about that there were some questions about some of the interactive map tools and and some of the traffic patterns changing etc these are plans these are the best guess with our crystal ball based on fact and data well you know what we see that's going to happen in the future so like I mentioned we still received a few comments that came in on Sunday and Monday and then we had a couple of comments yesterday from council specifically related to that nor three North Eastern quadrant and then of course some comments about safety and making that language a little bit more aggressive so we'll be working through that anticipate seeing that if not I'm in the Friday report definitely in the presentation on Monday we're gonna work the hardest and best we can to get all that in the Friday report but definitely expect to see that as a part of the conversation with our joint council and planning and zoning Commission meeting that's happening on Monday so with that I'm gonna end with the most important side of it all so the key focus of the mobility plan we've talked about this over and over and over you're gonna get sick of hearing me say this it's a multimodal plan you know this it's bicycle pedestrian and auto friendly yes we heard loud and clear number seven is not number seven it's number one it's letter a you know it's whatever it needs to be but yes it's the top and most important thing we also understand there's contact-sensitive design in each one of these areas we know in some of these areas we show primary arterial secondary arterials but we understand that the engineering design that's going to be going into each one of these roadways based on the criteria the code the specifications and the standard detail is going to work to design that roadway based on the surrounding areas so with that I'm going to end our presentation and as I mentioned Nathan myself and pre-tem are here and we're happy to answer any questions that you might have I appreciate you taking the time to allow us to to visit with you today and share this update I know you all know this is very important for our team to get this delivered as I mentioned once this once this is wrapped up and we are working through those next steps to get that roadway impact fee document updated very important especially as developments come through we want to make sure we have that document so that we can include we can include and enforce that that ordinance so appreciate your time and look forward to getting this through the finish line it is currently in the public hearing phase and so that publication was in the newspaper on Monday and Tina is going to go into greater detail during her presentation the overall schedule we're in alignment with the schedule that she's going to talk about so I'm gonna let her share that but it's been a great opportunity working together with the comp plan and that entire team working and making sure the land use assumptions align with this overall mobility plan so with that I'll be quiet and I'll let you ask any questions that you might have as always great presentation thank you thank you ma'am questions for Becky while she is here Commissioner Pruitt thank you chair I'll get it rolling here I've I've got quite a few so feel free to cut me off if it brings up other ideas from other commissioners please I want this to be a proactive time first I've got a few that are just more specific I'll try to make my questions as short as possible I'm really not looking for a you know how does this save the world answer but just just to make sure that I clearly understand what's going on just to be sure I know we've worked with a cog a lot and CT cog on this plan as I was perusing it looked like there were some sections in the Texas local government code specifically 242 001 G that suggests that if there's a deviation between the the city's plan in the ETA and the cogs plan that the cogs plan would apply essentially so I just wanted to understand whether we've looked at all those ETA areas and made sure that we align with the cogs so we're not purporting something that that we can't enforce essentially sure that's our goal that's why I mentioned the county thoroughfare plan and the overall textile thoroughfare plan those are the plans that the cog absolutely is is adopting and working in concert with our team is going to evaluate some of those additional ETJ areas specifically in that northeastern quadrant based on some of the feedback we received but that's part of the reason why I wanted you to show you the map that the same lines they're showing or the same lines we're showing okay and not necessarily is that always the easiest thing to do because we get a lot of questions and it's hard to explain those are not roadways the city is planning those are roadways that text on is planning or the county is planning but that we work together and make sure that we all show those same roadway networks thank you sure second on on sort of the thoroughfare plan on the far eastern side of town there's a primary arterial that's planned kind of east of Mayhill if you will we just got finished with that mayhill project great job by the way and and I just wanted to have some confirmation because when I just look at the overall map it kind of looks like we've got lots more north south primary arterials in that section planned than we do in the rest of the city so does that can you speak to sort of what what what makes that required as opposed to sort of a secondary arterial or lower I completely support the idea of more connectivity through that area right I'm just wondering whether but what drew the analysis to a primary arterial classification there yeah I think one of the main key things driving that is we have the loop we have mayhill but the amount of traffic and growth on the eastern side of our region and the northeast side of our region traffic coming in from us 380 currently is over is around 30,000 daily trips and that's just gonna keep on increasing and their primary connector or connection is going south along those three corridors to connect to 35 E so there is a lot of flow that we when we're going through the traffic models when we're going through the demand understanding that there that traffic is increasing it's not city traffic it's not local but everyone wants to take 35 you to go to Dallas or further in that south region so that is just planning ahead that yes we don't want that traffic to enter the city go through our streets and create more congestion the further away we can get them remain it remains outside the city and create that direct connection and that that was the only reason that our consultants and and staff felt that there was a need for additional capacity the future the future growth yeah that that really helps because I think what I'm hearing you say correct me if I'm wrong is that some of the growth even outside of the city of Denton to our east and northeast is wanting to go from there to areas just south of Lake Louisville right and for whatever reason the the connectivity is not there to go around an eastward direction so they're choosing to come through the city of Denton and so it's not really driven from the the land use decisions we have in that eastern section it's more driven by the regional traffic patterns outside of the city of Denton right I think if you take the Lake Louisville area there are there is the east side and west side and northern communities that are developing north of us actually break and take two different areas in it kind of lines with that okay connection point thank you that that really clears that up another thing you talked about the context sensitive design I noticed that the roadway classification definition table on page 27 it's kind of that blue and dark blue and light blue table doesn't really highlight that it sort of suggests that there's a fixed speed that these will be designed at in a fixed number of lanes why I guess yeah no I think that's a valid point that that chart is really kind of that guide of typical situations obviously as each roadway is developed and designed then you know those are opportunities to look at is this truly the design speed is this truly the you know six lane primary arterial etc so those are really the guidance documents that are in alignment that chart is I think you're referring to the chart I don't have the page numbers memorized but I've got the document memorized pretty good but I think if you're talking about that chart you know really honestly that is an alignment with what the standards show but we understand that there is obviously as we come through the design process that's where we have the leniency to work through that process and review those specifically to that context sensitive design or what's in that area so that's really kind of the starting point but we know that those are things that will be reviewed as they come through the process and all of the communication and and further discussion that we've had I get that message it's just when I look at that chart I I scratched my head because it doesn't seem consistent so you know I don't I just don't know who that chart is trying to communicate to right if it's if it's trying to communicate that hey we have these different classifications of roadways and here are their purposes then I don't really know that the right three columns there that deal with sorry with the number of lanes and the target speed and the volume capacity really is necessary if that will we have some pretty good descriptions of kind of who owns them and what their purpose is and then maybe the the more detailed plans could get into that I just want to avoid a situation where we get used to well here's what the plan says so you know we're all behind on projects and then we'll just do it that way instead of taking the time to look at that context does that make sense it does but I will tell you that a traffic impact analysis has to be performed which will allow for that type of information to come forward through the design process I realize it's very cookie cutter I guess is what you would maybe describe it as and cut and dry it does align with the design standards I think there may be some additional verbiage and I appreciate you bringing it up that we could help explain that you know these are the typical parameters but they're based on you know actual design through these steps in these processes to help kind of explain that maybe this is the first the first guide that's to be used as really kind of that standard but it's specific to that that context sensitive design that we discussed so that's easy to update to add some additional information to make sure that everybody doesn't see a primary material is always six lanes it's always going to be X Y or Z and and I'll tell you even within our design standard details you'll see modified primary arterial versus primary arterial they don't all align so you know that's really kind of just that first that first guide so that's a pretty simple thing to add to the plan to to maybe better describe what the purpose of that chart is and and again I really don't know who it's trying to communicate what to just just maybe we should think through that and make sure it's not overly prescriptive sure Commissioner Prude if I could interrupt I mean I think it's working as just a definition page isn't it I mean it's really just trying to give a standard definition I believe right it's exactly yeah I just like we have in a lot you know it's just a it's just defining that road classification I think to some general criteria correct right absolutely and it aligns with those standard details so you're spot-on that's the purpose of it and and I know what I guess I'm hearing is is you know it's not as it's too detailed to the point where it's cookie cutter but but the purpose is exactly what you've described so maybe the the idea here is to add you know a couple of additional sentences to say that you know these align with the standard details but each project will be designed you know specific to the context sensitive design in that area type situation that will help explain to your point not every single primary arterial is going to be six lines right but it still meets the intent so yes you're absolutely correct okay yeah sorry thank you no no thank you for that so the next one I have a question that we often see on the Commission and I just saw a statement and one of the strategies that I was confused by because I didn't think we had that ability from a planning perspective to control this so strategy 5-4 says maintain balance between land use and circulation systems by phasing new developments to levels that can be accommodated by roadways existing or planned to exist at the time of completion of each phase of the project so maybe I'm just still confused but my understanding was that when we see a subdivision application or a plat it's judged based on whether the roadways within the geographical bounds of that application are in conformance to our plans essentially and it doesn't take into account the mobility connections to get from the rest of the city to that development so I guess my question is is is that action or sorry strategy sorry trying to align to the right terms here is that strategy sort of enforceable and how do we actually see that when we see applications going forward so I think with this goal we're trying to cover every aspect of it to give you a quick example that particular strategy strategy if a developer comes in and say it's on McKinney and it's already a four lane or six and whatever highway it is and that developer is producing traffic that would require widening and going beyond what's currently in there that's what the strategy covers is yes we'll look at our infrastructure and see is it even a feasible development when it's coming in with the intensity and if it's not then what are the other options what are the other modes of transportation that it needs to look at within that existing framework so that's why there are some some instances where that may happen that there is a developer that comes in and the infrastructure needs to be just blown up around it like the intersection needs to be widened to dual lefts and triple lefts and so on and so forth so when we're looking that context that's particular that's the goal that would help us guide them in the right direction it's in developed areas there we have all kinds of areas throughout the city and I think if Tina has something to add but we have to work with the land use and it works hand-in-hand and when a developer comes in definitely that they do the traffic impact studies and that's when we find out that if it's going to impact the infrastructure the point where currently it's at a certain classification and needs to be widened or need additional lanes in this area is it something that the city's okay to do or is it something that will come in front of the Commission saying well you know their impacts are so high that this intensity is not acceptable so we don't recommend at this point but with a lower intensity we'll come back and it fits our overall map okay so so I think what I'm hearing is that most of the examples we've seen have have not been recommended to deny it based on that but if we had an application that was so egregious that you know we were trying to get 40,000 cars through a two-lane road to get there and it just wouldn't work then then that would be something that that staff would look at and say that this isn't gonna work correct okay thank you that that helps sorry okay the this might be a wording thing but strategy 112 if I'm interpreting it right it seems to exemplify some of my concerns when we talk about vision zero but then we also talk about how does that work when we get to a specific application of it so that that strategy says prioritize intersection improvements which improve through traffic flow on major primary and secondary arterials which is great we want that right and then also reduce impacts on local neighborhood streets with emphasis on pedestrian and bicycle safety so I guess maybe I'm just confused by the intent of that because when I read that that sort of juxtaposes these two ideas one we're gonna improve arterials to move cars right which we need to do and then secondly we're going to you know care about safety of non motorized users along in a local road context and and to me that means but once you get to this arterial okay you're done we're we're we're prioritizing the traffic flow am I interpreting that statement incorrectly I don't think it's ever our intention to say that pedestrians and bicyclists are not going to have ability to move throughout a primary or secondary arterial I think to your point if that goal you feel like is contradicting then there may be some ways that we could either reword it or separate it into two goals but it's not the intention of making an intersection not safe because we're trying to move cars through a primary or secondary arterial that's fine and like I said maybe I'm just interpreting it wrong but but that was one of the thoughts I had when I when I saw that one no I appreciate the comment and then I think I had a couple more specific questions about the the bike map and the primary bike network and and I'm not really sure whether we're at the point yet with these maps that we can dig into them I just I saw a few inconsistencies between what's on the ground and what's shown in the maps and then I when I'm looking at the future plan I was confused by some of the color coding can you just explain what what the process is and how we get from here to adoption to clarify some of those things okay good morning everybody so some of the inconsistencies you're seeing I would say this process has been going on for a while so first there are some inconsistencies with projects that have delivered that our consultant is not aware of because they were working on this you know 18 months ago something like that in terms of how we get to where we want to be I think this you know we've we focused a bit in this presentation today about how this is a forward-looking sort of a document and in the background I'm working on plans that to the best of my ability we're incorporating that you know that information into the mapping that's in this plan but ultimately there's going to be some reconciliation that happens after adoption of like projects that are in our CIP are not going to be reflected in these maps that's you know so I would say first on the issue of the existing mapping that's inconsistent to the degree that we can provide detailed comments to our consultant and have them make corrections to the mapping that's a great opportunity for us to to make those changes before the city receives that information and we put it on to city servers because right now they're hosting all of that information so that'll be a great opportunity and the more detailed feedback you or others can provide either through our comment forms or directly emailing to that to us we'll pass that along and make sure it's it's captured in there I'm not looking back at the existing mapping to talk about kind of how we're delivering the future vision I'm not looking back at what the existing map tells me and limiting the recommendations that we're making from a bicycle connectivity perspective based on the existing network that's there today so the CIP that I put together for this year is a very aggressive approach to looking at the entire network in the downtown area so you know trying to explore what are some of our opportunities developing sort of a grand vision I guess if you will of what would a complete and connected network around downtown look like because we really need to branch and radiate out from the center of town that's where the majority of our assets and our users are located and then we can start working our way into areas kind of outside the loop if I could use that term so I would say a lot of my focus there is is actually in the CIP itself which will help us update the mapping hopefully with kind of a better vision of the direction we're headed if that answers your question it does thank you I think you know we've seen that with with the way staff has been handling the flume and and the the thoroughfare portion of the mobility plan to sort of periodically update that as new information comes along and I'm yeah I think that's a great great tact I guess my only feedback was let's let's make sure there's no just simple oopses on the consultant side on their GIS system because you know some of the the legend entries just don't seem to match up with what would make sense for the map so I wonder whether there's just a color coding issue or something yeah there so GIS as you have to format things correctly to get them to represent the way they're supposed to one of the biggest changes this may help explain actually because I didn't share this in our feedback to your comments but one of the big challenges I had when I initially looked at our mapping was that it showed everything on-street as just kind of on-street and I didn't really have an appreciation for what that meant because it's an on-street shared street or it's an on-street bike lane there's a very big difference what those two facilities mean as bicyclists if I'm sharing the street with cars versus if I have a designated space so that was a big change that that our consultant recently made and that really impacts how the how the mapping at least for existing is visualized yeah because there what was showing up for our Hickory Street separated bike lane was the same as what showed up for a shared street like a Congress so I think a lot of the changes or a lot of the challenges you're seeing in in actually understanding what's in the map was based on that change okay and so there are some additional tweaks that need to be made now that that update was made which actually happened just before the holidays so we haven't even really had an opportunity ourselves as staff to assess that change and how it influenced the mapping and then Susie Rimmer also reached out to share that the online map all the lines are dashed so it's you know if you review the online map it would be really difficult to understand what's existing what's proposed so that's another nuance of how the data is formatted so we're in the process we'll get there eventually understand thank you and then I guess I have a few questions probably for pre tam and as I go through these I I really want to emphasize that I'm really trying to not be prescriptive about solutions I'm trying to explain what challenges I see and what trade-offs I see that we we might need to understand a little bit more okay and the reason I say that and preface this is that this has to do with maybe some of the comments that you've received from from council about you know what is the trade-off between different roadway classifications and can you do this and that so I guess functionally right I see that in this plan we kind of went away from drawing the collector lines in areas that were not yet developed and so when I look at that map I say okay that that means we're trying to provide more flexibility but it also means that I'm not sure what our desire is going forward for how frequent those collector roadways should be in those outlying areas can you explain how you make that determination yeah I think we've talked internally about that and yes we're gonna work as developers come in but the primary intention was to get in with when we have these small area plans I believe we're getting some direction from council and PNZ members as well to move into the next phase which is really focusing on the areas that are green filled and that need to be looked at more and plan more and get into those areas because internal within the city we already have everything planned out it's already laid out we have the collector system in there but externally some of these areas that have been identified do require a little bit looking into it so as part of those small area plans then we'll get into the details where we actually look at what is the spacing what are the distances do we need more collectors and and that that's the plan and those small area plans will then be fed into this larger comprehensive and if it's an area that doesn't necessarily have a small area plan that would just be determined by staff at the application time correct and we'll look at the entire area and say that yes and there is also a note within the map itself that says that we will determine provide some flexibility okay to define those and and I guess you know looking at the distribution of the different types of roadways we have one of the responses I saw was that the the suggested plan with these distributions was most optimal right and and I guess my question is what does that optimize for right what combination of say travel speed or cost or safety or volume of moving cars you know how does it prioritize those things or others to to say that this is optimal I realize that's a simple question to a very complex problem it has a lot of moving parts but to simply answer your question it is looking at the future capacity need of the system and when we say capacity and context-sensitive design what we're talking is moving people at the end of the day it's not necessarily autos on the street and so on so forth so when we say that we have we need to require that much right of way or that might win then we can define that public space in a different type of environment depending on the context and it is purely capacity based okay no that helps and then I guess when you were explaining that you were explaining that having multiple lower classifications of roadways can create a safety problem right which is certainly a concern if if the multiple lower classifications are used to replace a smaller number of higher classifications is that because of only the volume of cars or is it because of the speed of cars what what creates that safety problem it's a couple of things so when we're looking at safety we're primarily focused on nodes if you may if you look at crash data it's more on the intersections that you have a lot of crashes that are fatal or incapacitating and so on so forth so when when we were talking about less designated roadways they have more access points so there is more chances of people are getting in and out of these access points and and when you have a larger designated functional system being replaced by these now you have higher volume so that's another key component that function into it and then third thing is people its behavior I mean people do get frustrated they will find with all these new different softwares and apps they'll find the shortest route so they will not only try and get into the smaller and smaller denomination streets but try and make up for that time so you cannot control human behavior it's like if I have to get to work at eight o'clock in the morning and I am ten minutes behind today on my schedule I'm going to make it up even if it's a neighborhood street even if it's a local street so that's that's where now you're creating now you're putting that person and that one driver is creating unsafe situation for many people leaving their homes even so that's where the whole discussion of do we provide and allocate a space for people that want to move from point A to point B or do we create a space that everyone uses for all these different needs and that's that was the whole okay no that really helps thank you I appreciate that to just sort of understand what the concerns are I guess in in that topology one one more question and then just some closing thoughts on this issue I've never been fully clear when we do our sort of subdivision design for new applications that come before us can we is it allowable from an engineering and legal perspective to design some of those internal roadways to a speed lower than the 30 miles per hour prima facie speed independent of the the speed limit that would be enforceable and and legal within that area yeah we're having multiple discussions about this and I think Nate and our team internal team has had multiple discussions there are still several statutes that restrict us state statutes and there's some that contradict each other so we are working through that one of the things that other cities are doing are they're passing ordinances and posting speed limit signs that are lower than 30 miles an hour I believe Flower Mound recently part of passed an ordinance for some of the residential streets to be downgraded so there are avenues and options that other cities are explored exploring but we haven't sat down with our legal counsel yet and discussed this because this is it's very important that we have that legal support as well and legal opinion of how can we move forward in this particular okay no that's encouraging to know that we're working through that so thank you I guess just in in closing I'm sorry I've taken so long but I appreciate the levity I just offer a few thoughts so I completely understand that a large portion of our city is a suburban development pattern and a large portion of that future growth will also be that at the fringe the you know these developments need to be functional for that purpose as they're built I think looking toward future adaptability is is also a benefit to the city long term and I just believe that honestly I think the the right-of-way networks that we create when we do platting have a longer term impact on the land uses that happen in that area then our zoning regulations do right because it really determines what sort of compatible uses can go there and so that's why I think this is really important we have to get it right I also understand that you know we need to preserve future right-of-way and so when we look at outlying areas that have you know arterial designations and that looks scary I understand why it looks scary at the same time you know as we've learned with several of our projects internal to the city going back later and trying to get more right-of-ways is very disruptive to the built environment it's very difficult from a financial perspective so I guess I would say I support creating a map so that we can get that right-of-way and and what I understand is that we our intention is only to build those roadways up to the the width that is necessary for the development at the time and so so I understand that that makes sense I think what I see when I look at this little s-curve of different roadway classifications is that really those primary arterials down at the the bottom right of the graph are essentially our freeways right there are those through streets for resident non-residents even right that are going through the through the city there many of them are grade separated for safety which makes them honestly very expensive but incredibly good at providing that mobility through through the city that that we need to a certain extent because otherwise you know we'd be fighting people going to Oklahoma City in order to get our you know Slurpee at 7-eleven and and I think the concern I hear from residents and some of the comments is really with the roadways kind of in the designation just below that when you look in that that five to seven lane kind of whatever the name of it is right kind of range where you have these these faster roadways with enough lanes that the crossing distances are much further my impression is many people really hate these roads right from all sides of things we either hate the frequent traffic lights that make a stop and wait we've heard that on this commission before or you know we hate the fact that we can't safely change lanes twice or more in order to be able to turn into our destination right I've been in that situation where you have to drive an extra mile to u-turn and get back right or you know we hate that when when they're blocked by traffic or a crash there really aren't any alternate routes that we can easily take and to pretense point then people go on to some routing app and and try to wreak havoc in a neighborhood and find out they can't get through that way and get mad and cause a problem right real problem or or we can be disappointed in them when they tend to isolate our neighborhoods from each other for people who might want to get somewhere without driving it's not the majority of our people right but it is important and so I guess the the my impression is that they're kind of this middle ground where they don't really serve mobility in a great way and they don't serve access in a great way unless you're in a very strict constraint of where you're trying to get to you right they spread out the land uses they you know even if we put really good safe white balk but by blocking and waking sorry biking and walking routes along these roads crossing them is is a huge impediment right I wouldn't send my kids out to cross some of those roads and and so I guess all that just summarized I think I would say that you know as we look at those priorities of cost and safety and traffic volume and speed how do we get people to places my my impression is that I'd like to understand what a network would look like if it were designed to try to allay some of those fears that I described right and and yes it will have trade-offs but I'd like to understand what those trade-offs are and and I'd like to see you know clarity on on whether that's a desired goal or not right I mean I see the those priorities as sort of something that should be coming from the public and from from policy from council really and then you know we definitely need good engineering practice to say okay well with those priorities in this order what does that network look like right does that help sure you know I think it all goes back to this being a plan and this being a guidance document and as the community develops as we see folks going from point a to point B as we see the growth going to the outskirts of the city and let's face it it's not just the outskirts of our city it's now just like you can drive north on 35 and no longer see the difference between going through Lewisville Lake Dallas Corinth you know it all into Denton you can't tell where one city starts and stops that's the same way that the city of Denton is growing there will become a time where you can't tell where singer starts and didn't stops so I think you know really the goal of this overall plan is to make sure that we're providing that accessibility and mobility for the future growth and giving this as a roadmap a guidance document that helps with the the types of projects that come before you and the types of projects that our team delivers through the capital plan so I think it's every engineers desire as they work through a process to design a roadway whether it be primary secondary collector XYZ whatever we want to call them that you're designing it to meet the capacity you're designing it to meet the speed and you're designing it to me that context-sensitive design that that really supports the intent and really working folks to get from wherever they need to go to get out of the city to work or get to their location to take their children to school go to the grocery store etc so I appreciate your comments I like I said I really think that you know a lot of the things that are some of the concerns we're hearing and some of the comments that we're receiving are things that will work themselves out as we work from a plan into a design that's the reason why these types of things are updated every five years we're trying to project a future right now based on the the growth in the population that we know and where we're seeing development but as those things continue we will continue to update this based on truth instead of known statistics and facts yeah and I I really appreciate that just last thing chair sorry the the concern I have is that when we put I know there's lines on a map they can be moved etc but there's some expectation that if we put two lines on a map we actually mean two lines they may move a little bit we may use some context-sensitive design to determine how those facilities will be designed and built but this the stuff in between them we're we're kind of saying well that'll be local roadways right and and so what I'm concerned about is let's let's make sure we're drawing enough lines of you know not overly classifying but not underly classifying so that we have enough right-of-way so that we don't get ourselves in a situation where we would like to design this facility at speed X right because of the context however because this is the only facility within three-quarters of a mile of here and it's providing this crucial mobility connection we feel that to meet the traffic model we have to design it at X plus 10 right sure and then what you have is this conflict behind the desires for that context and what we can actually do because five or ten years ago we only drew one line on the map no I think that makes sense yeah I completely understand that I also understand that just as we've seen from the 2015 to the now 2022 plan roadway classifications have changed based on what's known so you know it's an ever evolving plan the same way that a water or wastewater master plan is going to look at the capacity that's needed for the outs you know outside surrounding areas the same way the comp plan is looking at the land use assumptions based on what we know today we have that opportunity to do those updates so I appreciate that and I appreciate the amount of effort that you took to review and provide us feedback thank you very much for taking that time certainly thank you for all your time and getting this together it's a huge huge effort and it's it's very impressive so thank you no problem sir just doing my job I think what it shows with a lot of your comments in this discussion is I mean this it's complicated right I mean there's a there's so much there's you know obviously the safety factor the multimodal ways that people transport themselves it's got to be an efficient plan I mean there's so much you're dealing with state law so yeah it's this is complex stuff you know and staff I mean you've done a great job you know presenting it to us obviously with the draft I think we can sometimes get caught up in the minutiae of it all as we're dissecting this meeting after meeting so I think we just have to remember what Becky said is that it's a plan and it's a concept and you've got to have one to be able to go forward but as developments come forward that's when we get to the specifics and things get tweaked in even as things are reviewed and and maybe we're living differently in the city that's when things get tweaked so yeah so I mean it's all great discussion but we definitely have to remember that it's a plan that has to be put forth by the experts putting it forth you know and then you know the tweaks and specifics can you know will happen along the way as we've seen I think Commissioner Villarreal has a question is that correct that would be correct thank you madam chair first off thank you all for the presentation and for strengthening the language around the safety goal in the mobility plan you mentioned that we will receive more substantive answers on the Friday report to have solved some of the safety concerns constituents councilmembers and commissioners brought to the city's attention from the macro overarching level what changes can we come to expect I think most of the constituents with concerns would appreciate a more conservative use of primary arterial roads when possible and an overall decrease in speed limits when possible a substantive shift to safety and accessibility especially for pedestrians and cyclists and perhaps a way from flow and mobility would help assuage most of those concerns I would believe sure Commissioner Vero thank you very much for the comment you know as I mentioned before the citywide speed study is something that's ongoing it's going to be very difficult to address speed as a part of this overall mobility plan you know we talked a lot about that chart that showed the different typical design speeds of typical road requests a road way cross-sections that's a mouthful but you know I think as we work through that overall citywide speed study there's going to be a lot of comments that come up we're actually putting some different effort into it that's been done before Nathan has some GIS layers that we're actually using and adding some additional data that we haven't typically done before from my understanding so we're really excited about that process don't be surprised when you start seeing data being collected all over the city we have a lot of collection points as Nathan shakes his head so you know I would tell you that ultimately is the goal of a design professional when they're a transportation engineer when they're designing a roadway to do the accurate study just like text dot does just like the county will do to really look at what does the speed of that roadway need to be so I appreciate that you're gonna hear more speeds going to be a constant conversation from you know the majority of the folks that spoke today as we work through those next steps and you know I would say everything that we do we do the best that we can to provide a safe environment for folks to walk bike or you know drive their cars that's our goal that's our goal as a city is to protect the citizens it's my goal as a professional engineer to protect the public safety health and welfare I take that ethics and actually do ethics credit every year to make sure that I understand my ethics so you know I would just say in general a lot of that is is relied on the profession to make sure that we're making those best decisions I do appreciate the comments and I think what you can expect like I said not only from the citywide speed study I think you can also expect from the language just in the mobility plan like I mentioned more aggressive proactive terminology specifically related to safety versus the terminology that and wording that's currently in there what we heard yesterday is it was more reactive or not as aggressive as what the wording could be to help individuals when they read the plan as they develop within the city to understand how important safety is to the city of Den appreciate the answer thank you no problem sir anything else Becky thank you do you and your team so much time has has been given this and and to help us understand and and make this city better so look forward to this continuing to move forward thank you thank you very much we'll see you Monday absolutely sounds good how about we take a quick break before we move into the comp plan why don't we go ahead and adjourn here at 1116 return in ten minutes thanks hello and welcome back to the Planning and Zoning Commission work session for February 9th I'll call us back to order at 1135 a.m. we will move on to our second work session report which is receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding the Denton 2040 comp plan update and I believe Tina will be presenting hi Commissioner Ellis and hi Commission well thank you for joining us this morning I know you all have busy schedules and so we greatly appreciate you taking time out to to discuss not only the mobility plan which we just had some really good discussion but also to talk about the comprehensive plan before I get started with our presentation just wanted to address one particular item and that is you're probably wondering you know given all the conversation we had with City Council yesterday and now we've got our Planning and Zoning Commission meeting why are we might be why we might be having these discussions right and so it's really important that we continue to have have the conversations with Council but also the Planning and Zoning Commission because while Council may have given us direction on certain items you know we can share that with you as the Planning and Zoning Commission and see if you concur or if you disagree on on a particular path that worked that we're taking and then so that will help us formulate our discussion on Monday when we have the joint meeting if we have items where we where we're not in sync with each other then it's important that we try to work through those issues before we move into the public hearing phase and so you know given the direction that we've received from Council yesterday we'll share that where we can throughout this presentation there's some additional work that we're having to prepare for or some additional responses that we're having to prepare for the the meeting on Monday but definitely want to hear where the Planning and Zoning Commission's head is at right so it's important that we get your direction because you're two independent bodies the council obviously looks to the Commission for recommendation on on all things planning related so please don't feel like that you're having to be tempered as a result of the direction received if you think that we should consider an alternate direction then by all means I would love to hear that so that again we can tee up that discussion for Monday before I get fully into this presentation you probably should see a friendly face on the zoom screen with me that's Ed Boyk from Matrix Design Group he and I will be doing a joint presentation this afternoon and Ed will be sharing the presentation slide since the bulk of the presentation is with him we also have Ron Mangida on our team Ron should be there in the council chambers and so our resident expert as well of all things Denton and especially our long-range planning history and then one other item to note is for your benefit and I know you're eating lunch right now but if you find that we need to take a break in between sessions or discussion items please let me know this is an aggressive presentation and discussion that needs to take place our goal is to try and get you out as close to two o'clock as possible so hence why we were trying to make sure we had about two and a half hours of discussion for the for the the comprehensive plan but the way our presentation is structured is that we we will present a topic and then take have an opportunity for discussion and direction before we move on to the next topic so with that let's go ahead and get fully started as we've been talking about in the past and I know we've had the opportunity to have discussion I believe it was on January 12th in addition to we've had more recent discussion on January 2016 about the comprehensive plan and in the work that we're doing as we've communicated in the past this truly is an update to our comprehensive plan it's a review and an update of our vision our goals policies and action items to assess their relevancy with conditions today when we did the 2030 plan that was an extensive complete rewrite of the city's comprehensive plan and so and at that time it had been at least 15 years since the conference of plan has been updated here we're in a different situation where we have the the plan that was adopted of circa 2015 we've started this update process around the onset of the pandemic and so hence why we're reviewing this document more from that update perspective that's how this project was originally scoped at the onset and the budget provided for it accordingly so hence why it's a continued conversation about the relevancy of the city's existing vision statement that's within our plan our goals policies and action items but then also identifying where we may need to have some refinements that are made next slide please so the feedback that we have received so far from the planning and zoning Commission the City Council as well as the community itself has been extensive and based upon that feedback that we have received we have structured our conversation today and in this presentation based upon the one central common theme that keeps rising to the top and that is how do we best manage the growth for Denton and then exactly what does that translate to for us additionally this has been an extensive coordinated effort with Gary Packen and the parks and recreation team as you're well aware of they've been working on the updates to their parks master plan and additionally this has been an extensive coordinated effort with Becky Davini and her team in engineering with respect to the mobility plan and also pre-TAM on our planning team as well but I can assure you this this has been extensive coordination between these two groups as well as any other policies that we have adopted for the city but knowing that we're in the process of updating the comprehensive plan the mobility palette plan and the parks and recreation master plan it was essential that we are all coordinating with each other in adopting policies that support each other and are not necessarily in direct conflict so before I get into the rest of this agenda slide couple would like to just set a few ground rules if we could this proved to be very beneficial with City Council yesterday and not trying to take over your your role as chair Commissioner Ellis but what we found that worked out well with the City Council in order for us to be able to get the direction that we that we need and to be able to move forward given given all the topics that we need to cover so the first item would be is we need clear concise direction today and yes Commissioner Prude I'm looking at you so from across the land but it's it's important that we get that clear concise direction we are trying to get this project across the finish line for March 1st and we're gonna be moving into the public hearing adoption phase with the planning and zoning Commission having their first public hearing on February 23rd and then providing presumably get a recommendation on the Commission then we have this slated for City Council on March 1st we have additional work that we need to get underway and get accomplished but we can't do it until we get the comprehensive plan as well as the mobility plan across the finish line the other item that we need from us today is we need concurrence amongst the Commission or at least a majority of those president present on how we move forward with each topic that we're presenting so that way we can make any refinements to the document that we need to make moving forward into our public hearing and adoption phase as you can see here we've got several topics to cover there's about seven topics with a roughly I guess a little less than two and a half hours to achieve that in really what happens is that limits our discussion on each topic to about 20 minutes or so Ron's there to be able to assist in a timekeeper function Commissioner Ellis if we're having extensive discussion he may give hold his hand up and give you a five-minute warning but if if we find that we need to spend more time on a particular topic that that's fine it'll just take away time from other topics that we need to get to additionally if we find that we're not able to achieve consensus on a particular direction as to how we move forward we also have the ability to basically park that topic off to the side if you will and then we can bring that back on Monday when we have the joint meeting with the City Council also as I alluded to earlier the way we've got our presentation structured is as we present each topic then we'll have an opportunity for some discussion and direction if you could allow us to be able to get through our presentation on that particular topic I think then that will really help us with the with the discussion that we need to have and receive your direction and then lastly just a reminder and I know we've talked about this in the past but remember the comprehensive plan it's a policy document therefore it needs to be a flexible living document to be able to guide our growth in our investment within Denton it has a 20-year horizon associated with it and if there's anything here most recently we're proven that we continue to update our comprehensive plan so obviously with this this update that we're doing right now but we would continue to evaluate and update this plan every five to ten years additionally you know I mentioned some of that additional work that needs to take place we really see that as part of our work program doing area plans in the future and I know the Commission has supported this idea in the past but that allows us to do that deeper dive finer grain analysis when it comes to certain areas within the community so the the comprehensive plan will provide that framework and vision but as we do those area plans then that allows us to be even more refined and get into more of the weeds that sometimes we have a tendency on wanting to do so with that just reviewing our agenda slide then with you this this morning so again we'll have a conversation about the vision statement and how that frames up the additional work in and direction that we've provided for in the in the comprehensive plan secondly we're going to talk about future development within our extraterritorial jurisdiction or ETJ and we'll address the city's limited regulatory authority I know we've had a lot of conversation with City Council about this maybe not as much with the planning and zoning Commission but this has really been an item of concern at least for councils been concerned on how best do we shade the the colors if you will on the future land use map and in particularly knowing that there are concerns regarding additional growth and development within the community and also wanting to preserve some of the existing character of the areas within the ETJ how best do we influence that area to either limit development or at least get the development that we're interested in having in the right place then the next topic that we're going to talk about is this preferred pattern of land preservation and this is also that is something that has come from City Council and so in really again along those lines of how do we limit growth in certain areas obviously being cognizant of our environmentally sensitive areas our floodplain areas also our community is very interested in preserving trees so how does that all work together in this idea of land preservation then we'll move into the future land use map I know in on January 26 ed shared with you areas where we're proposing to make changes so he'll go back through and just highlight some of those areas and we'll be able to address any comments we receive from the Commission in the past where we've made changes and where we haven't then we really move into that implementation phase and and and to me this is the exciting part once we get the conference of plan adopted we're allowed to move into the implementation phase because that's where the 270 action items that we have included within the plan document to help us with implementing what we want our community to be in the future and this is really where the rubber hits the road as we start working on these action items and so Ed's gonna share some information about how the goals policies and action items work as we move as we work on the implementation and why with this being a policy document while we still have to have that higher level perspective and not getting into so much of the weeds on how we accomplish all of the action items then we'll move into the area plans discussion in infill redevelopment because we really see that that's the part of our future as we move forward with our with our implementation and then lastly I'll wrap up with the next steps and in the calendar that that Becky alluded to you that I would be sharing when she gave her presentation on the mobility plan so with that let's go ahead and proceed to the next slide so as I mentioned earlier with all of the comments and the feedback we received both from the planning and zoning Commission Council in the community that that central theme and question really comes about is how do we manage growth and through the through the feedback that we have received today our vision statement still holds true in this slide here summarizes much of what we are interested in seeing for the future of Denton our community is interested in having that managed balanced sustainable growth with throughout the community we're interested in having compact development and mixed-use development as well as an investment in and infill development occurring within our city and it and within the appropriate portions of our city right we're also interested in having an efficient transportation system addressing multiple transportation modes throughout the city so hence why you know it's been essential that we coordinate with Becky and her team as we look at not only moving vehicles through our community but also how do we accommodate the needs of both pedestrians and bicyclists and I believe you know and in that previous presentation you really saw how our emphasis is on pedestrians and bicycles and how we are trying to make strides in improving that for those modes of transportation also we our vision statement addresses how best do we want to address our major highway travel quarters so really those are the windows into the community and in a previous committee city I worked in my planning zoning Commission chair I thought he sent it up correctly when he said really those highway quarters they truly are the windows into our community because whether you're a resident of Denton and driving through Denton or maybe you're not a resident Denton and you're just passing through if you're passing through on the highways that really gives you an opportunity to see what what is that what is that community like where do some of their priorities lie with respect to how their community is is developing you know in our case when we have I know tree preservation is significant for us so you know it may be you in Denton that it's more noticeable more trees that are visible right but really it's it's those windows into the community that where someone sees just a glimpse of what our our city is like we're also as a city of Denton we're also interested in having well-planned infrastructure to serve our city not only from a mobility standpoint with our roads in our bicycle trails on our sidewalks but really also taking into consideration how are we planning for water and wastewater needs you know with Denton municipal electric and in providing electrical service we're interested in having that well-planned infrastructure also we are interested in having parks greenways streams again tree canopy preservation all of that integrated in some form or fashion throughout the comprehensive plan and then also is important that we again are having that coordinated with the parks team with their master plan that they're working on and lastly it's the environmental stewardship and the sustainable practices that resonates throughout the the feedback that we received from the community and continues to still be a common theme within the comprehensive plan so you know all of these items that I just explained here that are they frame up the goals that we have which in our proposed 2040 comprehensive plan we have 35 goals that help us with implementing our vision we've got a hundred and twenty three policies that further refine those goals but as I mentioned earlier we have those 270 action items that are provided for within this comprehensive plan to help us implement our vision over time so based upon that feedback that we have received from not only you but council in the community we believe that the vision statement is still relevant as the guiding vision for Denton and so this continues then provide the framework as we move into these next topics and as we work to complete the conference of plan if there are no questions or comments regarding this then we can move on but I'll pause here for a moment to see if there's any discussion that's needed I do not see any hands raised Tina so go ahead and continue thank you okay excellent well now I'm going to turn it over to Ed as we work through these remaining topics thank you Tina I'm Ed Boyk with Matrix design group thank you chair members of the Commission for having me here today I'm going to start to work through the different topic areas as Tina had described that where we saw additional comments or additional clarification needed to help make sure the Commission and City Council were both aware of how they fit into the approach of the comprehensive plan how they've been addressed what some of the considerations might be and also it provides an opportunity as she had noted for additional discussion and where I'm going to start is with discussion about the ETJs so as as many of you I'm sure are completely aware the ETJ is a five-mile radius that extends around the city of Denton corporate limits there's two different divisions to the ETJ there's a division one which the city retains subdivision review rights and there's ETJ division two which the city has no authority for development review ETJs were I would say severely hampered in terms of what the city's authority could be through a Senate bill six which is approved several years ago and it restricted cities from being able to apply regulations related to zoning land use and density on developments but that were found within the ETJ Denton has also entered to these interlocal agreement interlocal agreements with Denton County which is you know as I described a moment ago further restricted some of those development review authorities in the division two where there is no authority for the subdivision review but even though the state Senate that was at state Senate bill six when it passed restricted the ability of the city to write you to do zoning review and land use regulation review the city still retains the rights through that for subdivision review and review for other things such as improvement districts or municipal development districts some water considerations signs access and roads streams water shed protection and then the ability to enter into agreements if there is a need to enter an agreement with a developer for those developments within the ETJ so because of that it's still valuable for the city to have a policy established in the comprehensive plan which dictates the vision of the community in terms of land use in that ETJ and so you'll see in these upcoming slides where the information received from the Commission the council the community in the past as well as coordination with the city staff is informed along with best practices a land use policy for the ETJ which was largely absent from the 2030 plan making and this map is just a blow-up of the west side of Denton which shows the shading that is proposed in the ETJ for agricultural and the light green and rural land uses and one of the comments we had received was that there are many municipal utility districts that are located within the ETJ and those municipal utility districts because of the Senate bill 6 which I just described a moment ago have secured rights through for development plans that it can be enacted through state legislation and they don't necessarily need to follow the zoning or land use policies of the city however the city does retain the ability to do subdivision review some of those municipal utility districts have moved substantially through the process or have entered into the process or moving through a state legislative process right now to be developed and those that are moving forward are illustrated on this map now one through four and since the last time this future land use map was presented those land uses have been changed for those municipal utility districts from the previous colors to low density residential which reflects the development density that have been proposed for those developments and and there's a good reason for that is that it reflects the reality of the built condition that exists today either through approved plans or will be on the ground into the future as a reality through the approval of those plans so it's a forward-looking land use plan it's looking forward and saying these are going to be low density areas it's appropriate to illustrate those as low density because the city will not have an opportunity to enact a different land use policy on those areas moving forward as for the remainder though the remainder of the area is to be retained with the colors that were there before and the reason for that will be talked about in upcoming sections related to the preferred pattern of land preservation and other specifically land preservation discussion because the land uses that are in the periphery reflect the vision of the city to have a managed approach to growth a balanced approach to growth for one where growth can be accommodated on the periphery of the community but it's also the intention of Denton to do what it can to encourage development landowners to consider the long-term vision for preservation of heritage preservation of rural spaces preservation of open spaces or at least accommodating that into their development plans so that can become an opportunity for the city to use as a basis of negotiation with these municipal utility districts if they seek city approval or concurrence with their projects to encourage them to consider this land use vision as a development of plans it doesn't mean that the city can exert total authority over the densities and types of developments that are proposed but it does provide that policy framework from which you can have discussion and move forward and hopefully encourage those developments to incorporate aspects of Denton's policies procedures and regulations which are aligned with the vision for Denton maybe that's you know parks related maybe it's a density related maybe it's streets and connectivity related but it helps to like I said establish that baseline that framework for discussion to move forward so that's the discussion mostly on the MUDs and there's two options one which was the staff recommendation that was brought to council was to just illustrate the MUDs that have either been approved or moved substantially through the process as low-density residential which you could see on the west side of Denton and then include notes for the potential that additional municipal utility districts could be proposed in the ETJ and the option to on the right was also provided to council for consideration and provided to you for consideration is to not only illustrate those MUDs with the low density residential land use that have moved substantially through the process or been approved but then also to outline in a color maybe it's pink those municipal utility districts that Denton is aware of are conceptual in nature but have not moved to the point of being and being submitted for application through a state processor moved to be considered a development plan with the city through any negotiations with the city so that way it's a little bit more transparent as well to the community that while the overall vision for the ETJ is to have rural land uses and agricultural land uses and balance the growth on the periphery with infill and redevelopment inside the community and the more developed areas there is a potential that because of state law there there could be additional subdivisions or these MUDs in the ETJ which do not conform with the land use plan and it's just putting on the plan to disclose it on one hand on option one it keeps the map a little bit cleaner a little bit more easy to read on option two it just adds additional designation to the map which is already a very busy map but it does more clearly I guess in some ways or puts it right in front of your face that these are these opportunities that we are aware of right now with MUDs that may move forward but have not moved forward at this point and so at this point we want to open up for discussion and direction on this since this is the some of the comments we had received in the past was how do you handle the ETJ how do you handle MUDs what's the value of having land use policy there what are some of the concerns that Denton might have with having that land use designation in land they don't control and really again just to summarize it's beneficial to have the land use policy there because it helps to reflect on the future land use plan the development vision for the community moving forward through the year 2040 but it's also helpful to illustrate those MUDs where the community is aware of those that are moving they're already approved and not able to conform with the plan for the future land use so those are the updates that are provided for you for discussion in any direction thanks and with regard to that mud map there was extensive discussion I know yesterday at council so a couple of questions I have is is the staff recommendation that just because it's a cleaner looking map I'm trying to understand why option one is the recommendation that's my first question my second question is what transpires out of council yesterday with regard to this map sure thing and I'll go ahead and take that question you're welcome so in terms of those staff recommendation the reason why we put forth the map and in our recommendation on this was because of the the status of the MUDs that one are existing or two that are that are well down the process of being created the ones that are existing though as I understand it Lala Ranch up there in the very northwest portion of the community that yellow rectangle if you will we also have then the ones that are closer to 380 let's see legends is is not fully approved yet through the state legislature OLEX which is also known as Meadows and then Astra thank you Ed those are either approved or such far down on the process that we felt like given the direction that we received from council that we go ahead and illustrate those as the low-density residential developments that they are the others you know they they are not as further advanced if you will in terms of their formulation and for the Commission I don't recall how much discussion we've had on these municipal utility districts but just for the Commission's benefit you know these are typically created through a legislative process they're they're separate apart from the city of Denton the one exception would be is that the developers may seek consent from the city of Denton if if we grant consent to the creation of these months then it may provide maybe a shorter time frame in working with the Texas Commission on environmental quality to seek you to get through their process we do not necessarily have to grant consent if we do not then it's just a little bit longer process as we understand it but but they they're really they're they're created through state legislature we have really no regulatory authority over over them especially with them being out in the ETJ - we do have the ability to enter into a development agreement if you will with them regarding certain services being provided and in typically one of the services that that comes to light is fire protection service just because of the we weren't there's an interest in making sure that when when people call 9-1-1 that their needs are being met and who's gonna be the closest responding fire station team and so really that that's gonna be coming and all likely probably from the city of Denton depending upon where some of these muds locate their their police service is provided then through the county but our recommendation was an acknowledgement based upon direction that council had given us because there I think the concern and as Ed pointed out was transparency acknowledging that they're there and so and then so hence why we went with option one you know option to those muds that we have outlined in pink they're just not as far along in the process so they may or may not come to fruition you know the La La Ranch expansion area up there in the northwest quadrant we have been in conversations with them recently because they were seeking consent from City Council so from what I understand you know that that's one of the ones that's a little bit farther along maybe compared to some of the others but council felt like it was best to show where these other muds could potentially occur because the other aspect with these is that you know they could potentially steer and influence additional development that's happening within the HEJ over time and so it becomes an acknowledgement of that potential residential land use in that area and the last thing I would add with respect to muds you know one of the reasons why the the developers pursue them is so that they're not having to comply with the city's ordinances so for example they're not having to comply with our tree preservation requirements they're not having to comply with any of our zoning regulations that that we have you know we have our gas well regulations so our gas well setback provisions that come into play they would not have to comply with those and so hence why they they create a separate political entities of themselves so that they do not have that zoning oversight that the city would otherwise exercise if they were annexed into the city okay thanks Tina yeah I kind of like option too I'm just a fan of more information I guess is why it's a little bit more transparent to me that's just my opinion and I was just curious as to what that discussion was and Scott is arriving at the podium hello Scott thank you just wanted to follow up and I think one of the questions that and I don't know that I got answered that ultimately council was really on the path of option two okay and that is what I wanted to know option to have the outlines of those that may potentially become you know a municipal utility district so so that is what came out of Council yesterday that's the difference between the two maps and that's really were the majority of council had landed yesterday okay good to know any questions from the Commission regarding this Commissioner perot thank you chair just real briefly I prefer option one and I'll just offer that the reason is that I think this needs to be a relatively timeless document that doesn't become stale immediately I think our efforts are better served by really looking into our subdivision regulations to see if we're doing everything we can to encourage the type of rural development in these areas that we would like to see with the little limited amount of controls that we have and so I think going option two is it's creating a situation where we're gonna have to update it every three months for the next ten years right and I don't know what value it brings other than just saying oh so that's my thoughts one in to add to that and thank you for the observation on that Commissioner perot in India where that's why we have the language that their potential municipal utility districts in their petitioning for state approval is to acknowledge that that we know that they're out there but that they're not fully approved or through that process so we you know if we end up landing on option two which as Scott pointed out and thank you for that is that you know at least we're being transparent and acknowledging that they may or may not occur okay any other comments on this Commissioner Cole thank you chair yeah I kind of I like option twos well I think you're right that more information is best but Commissioner Pruitt does have a point and that's gonna be in flux ever so often it could change but also you know there's a legislative component in Austin on this and I know there are some bills that have co-sponsors in the state house that would affect some of this now whether they see the light of day I don't know one of them's geared toward de annexation making it easy to the annex if the city's not providing you adequate services whatever that you know that definition is but I would you know I would if I was staff I would keep an eye on Austin and these future bills that are going to come down the line that could be very disruptive thanks Commissioner Cole Commissioner Villarreal yes I just wanted to concur with Council and Commissioner Cole and supportive option to I do agree we need more clarity we need more transparency in these regards and I would like to see option to you thanks yeah to me we've got the word potential in there which means I mean it's knowledge we have right now that's that's that's the reason that I'm sure that Council was focused there and why a good number of us are as well it's not really putting anything in stone it's just saying hey we know about this right now of the potential I think it's good information I do not see any other questions on this so I think we can continue great thank you thank you all right so moving on to the next section of discussion is the preferred land preservation plan and this was introduced I think I believe it previously which is showing lakes floodways ESAs environmentally sensitive areas habitats and to have something on the screen because we do not have oh I apologize no worries thank you closed up on me I was gonna have you guys use your imagination all right you're welcome all right so so again not to restart now you can see on the screen the preferred land preservation plan and this is a graph that without a map that was developed by the Denton GIS team to illustrate those areas that are lakes floodways ESAs you know those environmentally sensitive areas habitats and parks and those those areas that had the potential to become preserved you know whether it's a proof of an area of habitat that could be preserved riparian area floodplain and this is to provide that overall vision for those general areas which could be considered as part of an open space or public lands open space preservation effort on an upcoming slide to see how the land use plan and substantially many parts of the land use changes that are in the ETJ and just outside of the boundaries of the city was changed to be in alignment with this plan so as to those areas that are more impacted by say floodways or flood zones are shown as open space and those that are you know those potential to be preserved for riparian habitats or you know the cross timbers habitat those are illustrated generally with appropriate land uses on them as well but this again this is a high level approach there are regulations within the development code and standards that are used through development that drill down and are much more specific so at the time of implementation when a site plan comes forward and the subdivision comes forward these generalized boundaries become much more studied and much more refined so that those areas that are in the need of preservation or have the potential to be preserved or can create linkages and opportunities that fulfill not only the policies and vision of the comprehensive plan but the parks and recreation trails master plan all that can be handled at the time of implementation but what we're trying to illustrate now is and this will be part of the comprehensive plan is that these land preservation areas are aligned with the land use decisions that were made for updating the future land use map so along with that there was a series of questions that were provided to us from the both the planning and zoning Commission and the City Council related to preservation and open space and on the next couple slides you'll see those items that are marked with a green arrow are those in which matrix and city staff are going to incorporate or ensure incorporate maps or just ensure that the language in the comprehensive plan supports those particular efforts and the other items that are not identified with the green arrow are things that are already addressed either through the comprehensive plan the policies the maps and so on and then to some degree either implemented or not or handled by a different plan so I'll just kind of walk through those at a high level to give the Commission an update on that so so wildlife corridors came up and the staff is going to and matrix will work together to make sure that there's policies and actions in this comp plan that identify and or map those wildlife quarters at least set some policy for how the wildlife corridors can be handled in terms of preservation efforts or these open space efforts as for protection of green spaces around watersheds as I noted there are city regulations in place right now that do that there are FEMA related things engineering design standards that are related to that as well and the connected connectivity of green space you know they the parks and trails recreation master plan as well as a comprehensive plan which are coordinated both support those upper efforts and opportunities to locate recreational facilities nearby or within those corridors as well where those opportunities come in on this slide you can see a series of actions that are existing in the comprehensive plan which address those comments about whether or not natural spaces or these preserved areas are being used for linkages regionally for mobility for open space for for flooding flood flood conveyance as well as well potential for wildlife migration there's a need to make sure there was enough land preserved for parks and there's actions related to that as well as the 10-minute walk and making sure that that was a line between the comp plan and the parks and recreation trails master plan the you know the development of those greenways as I mentioned before linking those areas together encouraging those pedestrian bicycle links all of those comments that we received before are addressed and detailed out in the comprehensive plan so that they've been accommodated as for things that can be fixed or improved and clarified as there will be those existing trails that exist and existing parks will be added to this preferred land preservation plan to add to clarity in the relationship of those open spaces ESA will likely have a different color to make it a little bit more clear about what those areas are on the map the parcels they have a greater than 30% canopy staff has added that is going to add a policy related to that to identify those parcels which have a canopy of over greater than 30% the riparian areas will be included on that preserved preferred land preservation map the potential will be added as well as shown on that slide previously and as for the other two about parcels which were zone public facilities there was a question about illustrating what lands does it does the city of Denton currently control right now what lands are available for potential open space or for these types of functions and the existing the future land use map that's provided in the comprehensive plan already identifies those government institutional land use designations for those properties which is appropriate at the high level of a comprehensive plan and then it becomes drilled down or more detailed once you take an examination out of the be zoning map for the city of Denton that tells you exactly the types of uses and that would be appropriate on those city-owned properties but again comprehensive plan stays at a high level it generalizes it what's important is that this is a parcel that's designated for a variety of potential government and institutional land uses through the future lastly with respect to denoting the historic parcels there was a question that perhaps we should be illustrating some historic preservation areas or for landmarks on the future land use map and and really that is a refinement a drill down it's a it's a more detailed examination and something that is addressed through the 2019 historic preservation plan and really not a land use related function or something that should be illustrated at the level of a future land use map there are policies as well in the in goals within the comprehensive plan that do support those continued historic preservation efforts so there is an alignment between those plans as well to make sure that the comp plan supports those more detailed plans that move along to come from it so with that I believe that covers the need for discussion for the ESA's and if there's additional clarification that is necessary or any further questions that may have been created from this presentation of material we're open for that now so thank you any questions Commissioner Cole thank you chair I think you know the wildlife corridor map is very important what's the timeline on that and having that done so I'll take that question the timeline has not been identified yet if anything it'll either be for purposes of the comprehensive plan noted as a short-term midterm or long-term item that will also be budget dependent for assistance on being able to get that accomplished so it's really then comes down to it council being willing to fund that particular action item one reason I'm interested in that is because all those warehouses that are going up on Jim Crystal and Western Boulevard you'll have a herd of 30 deer now trapped in a thick at the size of City Hall and it's not uncommon to see a couple of dead deer a week on the side of the road on Jim Crystal and when these warehouses go up these deer are moving but they can't get across to an airport because they have two high fences and they can't jump them so you I mean you have all these these deer just trapped and it's going to be a problem because they're good a safety issue you know because I mean they'll jack up your car if you get a big enough deer you know but I was just you know we're already having that problem now it exists now and there's a lot of wildlife trapped there on Jim Crystal in those thickets and you know it'd be nice if we got on that so we didn't do that you know further damage so you would be in favor of this being a short-term item then from what I'm hearing from you so again I can hear you I said you would be interested in us identifying this action item as a short-term item in terms of I'm being done in it sooner than later yeah sooner and later because it's an issue now thank you and you said Jim Crystal at what what was the other road Western Western thank you but that also will go all the way down to Wolf Road to you know it kind of goes it's it's set between Den energy Center kind of and Western on Jim Crystal thank you okay thank you thanks Commissioner Cole any other questions on this topic Commissioner Perot thank you chair just a brief comment I think it looks great I think the there was some discussion I think I heard yesterday at council that about how many permutations of of layers that we wanted to include in the plan based on this map and I guess my guidance would be you know when you have people and developers looking at potential land they're gonna fire up that GIS map and turn on all the layers and fix it that way so I you know in in you know in the same vein of the previous item that I said you know I think having that type of information available on a GIS map online is a great asset for transparency but I'm hesitant to sign us up for you know constant updates of the PDF output of this plan that has to keep getting posted to the to the website every two months well and along those lines in in great observation with respect to the GIS tool and you're right so the intention and I believe Ed spoke to this is this the land preservation plan would be included within our comprehensive plan document right right behind the future land use map where we have it just because you saw the complexity of the graphic with all of the different colors and shadings and what have you being applied it really makes it difficult to be able to use it from that standpoint so from a printed standpoint in the document or a PDF version if you will the maps will be right there next to each other but we do take those maps and have the ability then to be able to put that information on our GIS interactive map just like we have the 2030 plan out there we have our mobility plan that's out there we have zoning information that's out there and in utility information you know someone can layer on all as much information as they want or the least amount of information that they're interested in having but it's but but with these documents though being adopted as part of the plan then you know they remain as is unless we do for example some additional area planning then if we're doing it area plans then we'll add that layer of information and presumably would amend the comprehensive plan so it's not necessarily something that we're going to be amending every few months or so but as we get certain action items accomplished that may warrant an update of the map you know that's the time frame in which that would occur thanks Tino anything else okay I think we can move along thanks thank you chair so now we're going to move into that detailed discussion about the future land use map and kind of walk through some of the more major changes that have occurred or been proposed between the 2030 plan and the 2040 plan because there's been a couple different changes as we've talked about at previous work sessions to this map notably we've there are new land use designations which we'll talk a little bit about but then also some of the land use designations in different areas of community have been changed in response to emerging development trends a preferred pattern of growth and a number of other issues so I'll just kind of walk through those one by one down first these are these seven different areas that will kind of drill into and talk a little bit more detailed about just for comparison sake and I'll flip between these two slides a couple times this is the 2030 showing those same seven areas and then here we go back to the 2040 and I'll like I said I'll go through this a couple times just to show those different areas and then I have some detailed slides that follow where we can talk about the those particular areas in close-up fashion just so you can see a little bit more detail for the areas that are being proposed to be changed okay so with the north detail this is the north end of the community includes mostly areas with that are annexed into the city of Denton but a little bit of the ETJ area as well for number one this is an area that through discussions with the community examining development trends as well as communicating with the economic development team this is an area where the type of development that's moving forward seems to be more aligned with a light industrial type land uses and the activities associated with marketing for that area are moving in that direction as well that area was previously illustrated on the 2030 plan as a big chunk of business innovation one of the things that's changed with the land use designation name of business innovation is that in light of the comments we've received we're going to clarify that it's going to be identified as business center and I'll explain that a little bit more later but for the purposes of examining that area number one you can see that a larger area has been designated as light industrial than was shown as business innovation on the 2030 plan and that on that and like I said that light industrial designation is reflecting the future loop 288 extension the fact that there's a rail line running through that area some of the existing development trends that are moving in that area and the economic development efforts that are in that area as well and really this becomes another employment focus area for the community moving forward that has land uses that may not be quite as intense as you would find say in the industrial commerce land use district around the airport so this would be stuff that's more along the lines of warehousing business park assembly maybe some light manufacturing and then those supportive uses for those areas such as business to business type businesses you know for sales restaurants and things like that that might support the workers that are in that area on a more limited fashion so that's that's the intent with the changes on one I did mention that business innovation had been renamed and the business innovation led to a lot of interpretation about what that means if you just hear the name business innovation it's difficult to know what kind of land uses are actually intended there it's being the land use description was revised to be a little bit more descriptive about how it would be developed into a modern employment centers for the community largely composed of those office uses but it could also be a mixed-use environment and in renaming it to business center and helps to redefine that these are intended to be as well centers of employment more office driven but employment in the community at large so moving on to number two this is reflecting an ongoing development pattern either through construction that's occurring now or projects that are moving through the process or have been approved in the process or some point of subdivision review so you'll see that there's been light or low density residential added within the city of Denton's boundaries as well as into the ETJ just on that I guess that bottom left corner of the box for number two which is a change from the 2030 plan and like I said this was reflecting the ongoing development pattern that's occurring there as well as the projects that are coming forward in that area so this is one of the few spots in the ETJ much like the MUDS where low density residential is being introduced because of the certainty of development pattern and Denton's desire to just continue to encourage that conformance with the comprehensive plan moving forward there if I move on I'm gonna move on to the southwest portion of the community this is really centered over hunter and coal ranch and there's a couple couple changes illustrated number five loop 288 is intended to be routed through the western side of our on the western side of the Denton Airport and there is an opportunity there to capitalize on that transportation corridor as well as the proximity to the airport for industrial or industrial commerce type uses so that's been expanded into that western side area that loop 288 does go through hunter coal ranch and one thing you'll notice with hunter and coal ranch is that and we've talked about this at a previous work session is that the land use designation has been changed from showing a multitude of different land uses that are defined in those master plan documents to using a singular color and the reason for that again was that by illustrating it with one color it's making it very clear that there is a more refined and specific land use plan that exists and has been reviewed through a separate process through the City Council and Planning and Zoning Commission that describes those land uses and the densities and characteristics of those land uses to a much finer grain detail than what would normally be found and at a general or comprehensive plan level so that's been a change that's moved forward this will help simplify the process a little bit and ensure that there's no confusion that you know multiple applications are needed to amend not only the master plan but also the comp plan this is this is the comp plan deferring to those more refined and detailed planning documents the other part that's been changed is that there's been some adjustments to the land use mix on the east side of 35 West in response to providing a more complete community more diverse housing options trying to establish a commercial or mixed use center to support this area that's not within the master plan community as well along I along 35 West and so those are the major changes that have been proposed between the 2030 plan on the left and the 2040 plan on the right moving on to the southeast detail which includes the downtown area I'll actually start with number seven the downtown through the discussions with the community and others it was recommended that the Denton downtown area be expanded to incorporate more of the transitional areas meaning more of the areas surrounding the downtown which could be more holistically to borrow a word for Becky planned so that the neighborhoods and the downtown area the transit areas and gateways and the interfaces between downtown and the universities can be planned under the the context of a singular area plan document as those area plans are developed and refined for these special places in Denton so that's why you see those changes proposed around the downtown area for number three that was a change which is a reflective of the ongoing development pattern in that area which is more of an elite industrial approach rather than a business innovation approach or mixed-use approach so those land uses have been adjusted accordingly for number four the same thing applies the development pattern in that area has moved within the city's annexed areas to be more aligned with low density residential development and not the lower density rural style development that was illustrated in the 2030 plan and so that was a change that was made to match that ongoing development pattern that will persist through the horizon of this plan so that summarizes many of the changes to the future land use map and we wanted to include this map as well which is the preferred growth scenario map and previous work sessions we indicated that there was no proposed changes to this because it was still a valid document and that still remains true today this is largely the same as what was preferred by the community through those extensive outreach efforts in 2030 so in the 2040 map the change that has taken place is around that northern the north west little bit northeast corner of the 288 and I 35 down to University Drive that's been shaded purple and the reason for that is to be consistent with the future land-use map which illustrates the light industrial and business innovation in that area so that is one of the areas that's been changed as an expansion of an employment focus area for the community moving through the year 2040 so in the effort of full transparency this was this map is going to be modified to show that we are in process of cleaning that up and making a little bit more clear but otherwise the integrity of the rest of this preferred growth scenario map which was reviewed by the community remains identical to what was illustrated through the 2030 plan and provided to the community for a review through the community engagement for this plan and so with that I'll open this up for any discussion direction that you might have thanks and we do have a few questions I'll just say thank you for renaming business innovation years ago on my first year on this Commission I asked for definition of that and I'm still waiting because no one ever had one so we have needed that to be something else and I welcome Business Center anyway Commissioner McDade thank you madam chair if you could go back to the preferred scenario growth map I'm looking at something that really disturbs me I'm looking at the the downtown Denton and I'm looking at I'm looking at the circle as if it's a square but I see on the eastern side it goes all the way out to Woodrow and what disturbs me is that entire circle encases all of southeast Denton and my concern is I know we're talking about 2040 but is there any way you could tell me I mean it may be the next 18 years what the plan is for downtown Denton because I've been to quite a few downtowns in bigger cities where low residential is not there and if that's a low residential neighborhood I'm concerned that in the next 18 years it's not gonna be low residential anymore it's gonna be pretty much what most downtown areas are in other cities so I'm happy to take that question great observation council or excuse me Commissioner McDade so the the circle if you will is just to denote that this is an area of town that would be anticipated to have higher density development that happens I would not equate that to what you see down in Dallas I think if anything some better comparable examples might be you know what you may found find in downtown Plano for example with some of the infill development that they've had there you know as it relates specifically to southeast Denton again this is just to illustrate that this is an area of town in our downtown where we would anticipate seeing additional growth and development and the reason for that predominantly would be the fact that we have the DCTA station there also with the the businesses that we have in the downtown area providing additional population to be able to support those but let's take this the next step further again so this is high-level map illustrating areas in the community just like you can see some other areas where there's the darker darker circles shown to illustrate some greater density of development we really see that the future for southeast Denton is to do that area plan and I know if we're successful getting the comprehensive plan adopted on on March 1st then we're immediately going to shift into prioritizing which areas of the community where we believe we need to do the area plans that allows for us to be able to take a deeper dive finer grain analysis into southeast Denton and engage the community and hear from the community as to what type of development they would like to see if any if they would rather maintain status quo with more low density residential being the predominant land use if they're interested in having additional commercial uses that are brought into the area but doing that finer level analysis at that point but again this map is just to illustrate areas within the community where when when the 2030 plan was created there was an extensive amount of public engagement and these areas in general not specific but in in general were identified that we would have more intense development within that area or higher densities of development but I would say do not equate downtown Denton to becoming like a downtown Dallas thanks Dean I think Scott has something to add he just arrived at the podium as you thank you mr. Commissioner McDade the this is the same map that was in the 2030 plan and then that circle isn't necessarily a borderline it's a dashed circle and really indicating numerous centers across and around the city that we have focal points I would say that that circle is probably grander in nature than what it would take in if you look at it even to the north to the west it's taking in residential areas that really will not change it's just that general when we talk about the core the center of the city is illustrating that and then just different sized circles throughout the map so I wouldn't say that it encompasses particular areas in particular okay because I guess my way I guess my biggest concern was when I'll use 2030 as an example you know maybe 75% of all the homeowners in southeast inner 65 plus so in 2030 pretty much most of them are still going to be around my concern was 2040 I mean I'll be 75 and I know a lot of the homeowners God will they won't be with us off I was only impression that it would be easier for the city to come in and just I'm not gonna say what I'm saying is I don't want to see a Quaker town revisited I mean that's the concern we have over there right now this is really this this has really nothing more to do than to say where it is that these development centers are and a lot of its current so when I reference the 2030 plan that means this map is the same as the map that was five years ago from all the public input and all the citizen input that we had we've made some changes to the map but that's not one of the changes that we made to the map so it isn't it isn't changing anything that we've been doing or that we plan to do and it certainly isn't targeting neighborhoods in any way shape or form all right thank you thank you any other questions Commissioner Prud thank you chair I'll just share real briefly I'm in favor of the sort of brown NPC designation but my reasoning is a little bit different than what I've heard before and that's because when we look at the the broad future land use map it makes sense that the core that's already developed has more granular uses and more granular future uses because it's already developed and then as you look toward the outside the older map that had the specific land uses agreed to in those NPCs kind of made it appear to me that those areas we wanted lots of mixes of uses whereas these other areas that were designated medium residential or low residential we wanted only that for a very large area of land and I think some of the changes that we see in the comp plan suggest that that thought has has shifted and so by by showing the large brown areas were more clearly showing that hey these outlying areas are general guidance and we'll we'll get to some of the more specific goals as we get to the smaller area plans and that sort of thing thanks mr. Perot any other discussion questions comments on this section okay I do not see any we can mr. commission or excuse me I'm chairwoman Ellis if I could for just a moment because I want to make sure that we address the question that was raised from the Commission back on the January 26th and I believe may have been Commissioner Cole who asked this question and if not Commissioner Cole the Commissioner Anderson and that was with respect to the northwest part of town I know it was asked of staff why the light industrial designation extending into the ETJ boundaries adjacent to the city of Crom and so we floated that with council yesterday and pointed that out there was no effort there was no appetite to be able to change that you know other than to say that we need to look out at what's in the best interest of Denton and what our needs are so hence why we have not made that land use map change I did not want you to think that we think that we're being non-responsive to the planning and zoning Commission but just to provide that additional information thanks Tina appreciate that once again another reason why small airplanes are such a good idea okay let's go ahead and continue thank you chair all right and as Tina had noted earlier when we began this presentation this is the fun stuff this is the rubber meets the road stuff this is where the culmination of all this review of information and planning and policy comes together and we're gonna need this we're gonna need the graphic again the slides are much more interesting all right well this is the implementation piece this is that really the the exciting part of the plan that changes the plan from being one where it's just a coffee table book it just talks you know of all these great things that the city's got vision for and it takes that vision and it implements it it makes it a useful document that can be implemented over time and give some direction for how to broadly approach implementation or actions and implement those actions for this plan to make that vision a reality and as Tina noted there's 270 separate actions in this comprehensive plan update and many of them can be categorized as ongoing stuff that Denton does today my interagency coordination you know regular review of policies or whatever else it might be and then there's the short-term stuff and this is the the the items that should be acted upon and within the next several years midterm midterm five to ten years and long term stuff that might not initiate until ten years or more out the specificity of each of these actions although generally broad gets a little bit more less detailed the longer the horizon out because there's less certainty about how those should be approached but the general concepts of how these actions should be implemented still remain each of these actions are identified in the implementation action table and they have several different elements that inform them and then and these are I guess broader descriptions of what those actions could be in terms of you know one it's gonna identify the key action so if the key action is you know develop a new urban design code then that will be the action that will be in there now that action would be supported by certain policies so the action table also shows you which policies support that action the action type in the table says okay what are those what kind of read what kind of action is this is this a regulatory action is this a partnership is this a program is this a policy just to give a little bit more frame of reference for what that action might be time frame as we described before that's established based upon the urgency to act upon those or if an action that's accomplished early supports an action that would be taken later within the 24 horizon responsible part department and agency this makes sure that the different departments within the city of Denton for different agencies that work with the city of Denton are aware of their role in helping to lead and spearhead these actions to move them forward and in almost every case you can't accomplish things by yourself and in a bubble either through an agency or department you need partners to support that so many of these actions also identify those partners that would be co-leading or supporting these actions to see them through and being achieved by the community so one of the ways I just was this was described to City Council was that these actions really constitute something like a recipe I mean it tells you that you need eggs it tells you you need you need to have potatoes it tells you I need to have some sausage in order to make breakfast I'm hoping not making it very hungry but you guys did just eat so you should be okay but uh it tells you you need these ingredients and tells you you need a frying pan and it tells you you need an oven but it doesn't say how do you cook the eggs I mean are you gonna use a certain temperature are you gonna whisk the eggs are you gonna dice the onions are you going to bake the potatoes are you gonna fry them that those details that level of detail is not appropriate for the implementation table because that is stuff that gets determined after this comprehensive plans established the comprehensive plan is providing that broader scope saying these are the general actions that need to be accomplished but we don't need to know at this point nor is it appropriate at this point for the the fine detail of how to get it done to be identified what's important is that there's actions that may be done and there's certain elements that need to be addressed so we're putting it together here's your recipe later go figure out how you're going to cook it so the city staff and working in conjunction with yourselves a city council and other entities will figure out the exact way to approach these actions for the benefit of debt in the most effective way so what I wanted to show next was a couple slides that show some of the actions that are in the implementation table that's in the comprehensive plan update right now and some of these include you know on the left-hand side you'll see some general categories of actions that are important to the community that will probably be pursued in the short term or ongoing horizon so these are just provided for examples they're not categorized this way in the plan all the actions are listed in the implementation table by the element of which they are found in the plan but the policies that support those actions tend to be found throughout the document further illustrating those that relationship between the different elements of the document to support an action but in general I just wanted to kind of go through at a high level really quick some of these implementation actions such as to describe how that relates to what I just described before the action that has a key action but the one in the lighter shading purple you know this is an action that we want to revise those that those zoning districts to be consistent with the future land uses and so this is really something that the city would be examining on an ongoing basis to make sure that there's an alignment between the comp plan and the zoning code our zoning the zoning districts making sure there's an alignment split the preferred growth concept looking for ways to improve and streamline the development process and so on so there's a lot of different components to this action they're all supported by those policies or related actions they're all identified in the second column and you can see that they're in a couple different sec elements of this comprehensive plan what kind of activities as well as the regulatory actions because it's going to improve the review process or it's going to improve the use of the code or find alignment between plans it's something that should be occurring in the short term in a zero to three-year range who's going to be managing it on this case particular case planning and development be managing it it will be their partners or yourselves the planning and zoning Commission be part of that partnership to make sure that this actions implemented in the right way now what if this doesn't show like I said before is it doesn't tell you how to do it exactly it just says these are the things that need to be accomplished this is who needs to do it this is the time frame this is why you do it this is supported by these policies and here's who can help you get it done moving on infill the same thing you know there's an action that's on the short term you know doing an infill inventory and we've actually got a little discussion about something similar to this on a future slide related to infill and you can see the same element supply you know who's your responsible agencies the time frame and so on the next slide shows this is open space and preservation this is really related to how in these particular examples how regulation can help promote that conservation or preservation so this would be applicable mostly to development on subdivisions things like that for both of these items but there's also a component for implementation for open space and parks that the public actions it's related to the planning and partnerships and in ways to strategize to acquire land for that public benefit of preservation creating those trail corridors preserving floodways and floodplains identifying those historical or sensitive lands that are important to the community and so that would be a responsibility not enough planning and zoning but it's really driven by the Parks and Recreation Trails Master Plan and Parks and Recreation they would be the primary lead for this and their policies that support it and it's something that should be done on an ongoing basis especially since that plan is just moving through the process and tracking along with this comp plan and the mobility plan and then finally multimodal mobility the mobility plan which is ongoing currently so it's identified as a short-term and ongoing process because there's a direction that'll be that's more refined in that mobility plan that's not detailed to the same degree in this comp plan but the policies and actions and goals of this comprehensive plan support that mobility plan and its details of analysis and direction for implementation so this is one of those actions that shows that relationship it's shows that support between this comp plan and the plans that follow and there are like as I said before over 200 270 of these within the document they have the same relationships in the way that they're set up it's actions that are to be implemented over a certain time frame and many of these actions are designed to support or encourage additional planning effort or additional regulatory effort or whatever it might be to achieve the vision of the community and so why we took a little time to walk through this was because there was a little we want to make sure it was very clear to the planning and zoning Commission into City Council and to others about what the purposes of the comp plan is and how that those purposes relate to the actions in the implementation of the plan any questions you might have happy to receive them thank you thank you again I have to say I love the the action table I think that's just a great addition to this I believe Commissioner Pruitt has a question thank you just wanted to thank staff a lot for the focus on this implementation section I know it's a large table and and updating these things and really thinking through carefully what still applies and what needs to change is a big task I look forward to you know seeing some some reports and metrics as we go forward but I expect that to to take some time right I mean some of these things we're not going to know what metrics we need to start looking at until we complete some of those short-term actions and then once we get those things under our belt we can have a pretty pretty good idea of what we should track to to make sure that those actions are are having their desired effect so I really look forward to to seeing some some good motion toward these goals thank you yeah thank you I agree any other Commissioner Cole thank you chair thanks you all for the hard work and both presentations it's just a massive amount of information and you guys are just we're lucky to have y'all and thank you for all you do thank you with regard to this action table just to Commissioner Cole's earlier point with the wildlife study I don't know if that is point 122 in the action plan if that's where that would fall in but we do have that as mid you know I'd be in favor of moving that to short especially if we're talking about saving the lives of animals and whatnot so if that's where that does fall in I'd like to maybe have that discussion on making that a shorter term goal any other discussion on this okay I do not see any other questions and in Commissioner Ellis we definitely can look into that and see if that's the appropriate location or if it needs to be moved elsewhere refined but let us look into that okay appreciate that you sure you ready for me to continue that I'm sorry did you ask a question I did yes sure I was just asking if you're ready for me to continue then yes okay thank you so I'm building on the implementation discussion and this is the drill down that about what are those most important items that can be the next steps for the city to move forward into and through again a much of the discussion between City Council and yourselves over the work sessions that we've had it's it's it's it seems that some of the priorities that are really important to the community would be moving on to those the discussion about area plans so throughout the implementation table there is there are actions related to establishing area plans or examining those neighborhoods and character areas that are important to Denton and looking to create more refined planning approaches to those areas and what that means is that these area plans are really that refinement that that find tooth examination of not only the land uses but the design the streets the trails the transportation the parts the transit all those different aspects that make it that make those areas unique or special to the community these area plans could also extend over areas that are focal areas for the community such as you know as they illustrate on that focus concept area method you see on the right which I'll show is a slightly larger diagram on the next slide those are areas where you know there could be plans for corridors that establish character over those corridors or special you know treatment to the roadways or whatever it might be there's also those you know mixed-use centers that were identified in the in the preferred growth concept map those are potential areas for focus and further refinement through area plans so the next step is once this comprehensive plan is moved through the hearing process and been accepted and approved is to be really begin that analysis of of all the different areas that are worthy of attention for additional planning and dentin what are the priorities we there needs to there's gonna be I'm sure Tina will explain us as well there's an intention to you know to get to work and identify that the priorities for those area plans which ones we move forward with first the scope what is necessary to achieve a proper vision for those area plans what kind of timeline should that be accomplished in is it something that starts now is it something that starts later as well as the potential for budget needs to support those area plans in their development so this is one part of developing a more complete community with one with more diverse housing and the more diverse shopping employment number of employment opportunities trying to create those you know you know the trend to implement the vision of what Denton wants to be the second piece to this is also those actions related to infill and redevelopment and the city of Denton already has infill standards and redevelopment type standards in their regulations today they're within the development code as well as other regulations the community has related to engineering in streets and design and whatever else it's important that these be monitored and evaluated to ensure that they're achieving the goals that are desired by the community and there are actions there's an action in the table related to that to making sure that the infill development standards and the codes that are in place are supportive of this vision for balanced growth between new growth and the infill within the community I I would like to describe infill generally as those vacant parcels that have never really been developed with any use that are located or surrounded by generally developed properties meaning like a vacant lot that's surrounded by you know residential or commercial that's an infill opportunity redevelopment opportunities tend to be those parcels that are currently developed with the use could be a parking lot it could be a home it could be a commercial building on a corner and the redevelopment standards would be those standards that help support reuse of that site so keeping the existing building in place and being able to accommodate additional or different types of uses or the redevelopment of you know clearing the site and then putting a new structure up that's more in conformance with the vision and compatible with the area that it's located in so those standards both need to be examined and evaluated to make sure they're achieving what the city of Denton is intending moving forward that could result in the drafting and adoption of additional provisions and policies to make that happen especially in those cases where we're finding that the infill standards or the redevelopment standards aren't fully supporting the development vision for the community or they're creating conflicts or perhaps even making it more difficult to achieve redevelopment or infill on those sites so so with that you can see this concept area map on the on the right and I'm gonna go to the next slide and show you the blow-up many this is largely again something that was introduced as being unchanged from the 2030 plan because when it was reviewed by the community and staff and other entities if it was shown to still be valid and in conformance with the vision these focus areas you know are those opportunities for that enhanced area planning but they're not the only ones there could be additional areas or they may not represent the exact size as mr. McDonald Scott McDonald's noting earlier is that these you know these are figurative dashed circles that kind of illustrate the general area of where an area plan could take place but not necessarily a hard boundary the purple rings that are added to this are additional areas in light of the discussions that have occurred recently where there could be potential area plans as well notably at the intersection of 35 and 288 the northeast part of Denton as well as the southeast part of Denton which was also brought up today as being an area of concern so those are potential area plan locations those purple areas are those potential areas that may be of a higher priority right now but that discussion you know remains to take place at the conclusion of this process to adopt this comprehensive plan the policies in this plan the action table and everything else will support and inform those discussions for where area planning should take place and with that I believe that I've addressed everything that was needed to be addressed yes so I will be happy to take any questions or comments you may have regarding that final stage of implementation detail thanks again and do we have any questions or comments on this section I do not see any okay well and chairman Ellis if it's all right with you then we'll proceed to our last slide yes the next step slide that's great thank you and if I can have you share that one more time okay so this slide should look familiar given that we've shared with it in the past and it's been updated to reflect all the work that we've accomplished as of today so obviously we're on today's date February 9th and greatly appreciate the additional feedback and direction that you have given us today want to take just a quick step back for a moment we went ahead and did publish the legal notice associated with the public hearings we are still anticipating moving forward with the planning and zoning Commission public hearing being on February 3rd and if the Commission renders a recommendation on to your meeting on that date then we would move forward to City Council on March 1st and have public hearing and hopefully adoption of the plan at that time but between today and in February 23rd we do have one more meeting teed up that's the joint work session that we have with City Council to have some work through some remaining items as it relates to finishing the comprehensive plan in addition to the mobility plan so the mobility plan is also on the same time frame that the comprehensive plan is on so if there's hopefully you all can make it on Monday the 14th and I've had this meeting on your calendars so that we can ensure that we've got quorum but other than that there's any additional questions or feedback direction that the Commission would like to provide as it relates to the comprehensive plan happy to receive that and again we appreciate your attention to detail and in working with us on this project thanks Tina with regard to that meeting on Monday do we know how we're doing that are we hybrid in that meeting I assume again or we are and so we need to ensure that we have four members of the planning and zoning Commission that are in person as well as we'll have four members of council in person and then everybody else being remote we will have that meeting in the City Council chambers so you'll be positioned at the dais for those of you that are participating in person and then obviously the remaining folks would be remote and then we'll have limited staff potentially available either in the council chambers or remote we want to make sure that should there be anyone that from the public that is attending that we can socially distance and maintain that those appropriate distances in the council chambers but but because of the Texas Open Meetings Act with those rules no longer being suspended we have to ensure that we have a minimum for planning and zoning Commission members in attendance right right are there any questions other discussion before we end Commissioner Villarreal I can't see you but did you have any questions okay now I can see you okay very good well Ed Tina thank you and to all the staff for you know putting this together working so hard on this presentation has just been getting better and better honestly it's great just because I think we're becoming more productive as we we move forward so keeping the wheels turning and that's a really good thing so awesome so I think with that I will adjourn us thank you everyone I'll adjourn us at 1 o 8 p.m. thank you all