Dec 06, 2021 City Council on 2021-12-06 11:30 AM (WORK SESSION)

Good afternoon I guess it's good morning yet and welcome this meeting didn't City Council it is 11 31 we do have a quorum so I will call the meeting this work session meeting to order we only have one item on our agenda we have two hours allotted for this discussion with respect to the redistricting and I'll read that item item a ID 2 1 2 6 4 0 receive report and hold discussion give staff direction regarding the drawing of council districts thank you mayor and City Council Ryan Adams interim chief of staff I've got a brief presentation before council begins its discussion there yes just give a little background for today's discussion this is a review or pardon me this is a drawing session subsequent to our annual our review of our districts after the 2020 census we've had a few meetings on this topic prior to today council was presented with the results of that analysis on October 19th and gave direction to proceed with redistricting on the 26 there was adoption of the redistricting criteria and public input guidelines and on November 16th we did hold an initial drawing session and discussed council discussed two proposed district plans we do continue to maintain public input and resources at the city of Denton comm slash redistricting and comments can be submitted by the public via a web form which you have been receiving since we began with the redistricting effort just to give another glimpse of the timeline so we are currently at the second drawing session on December 6th to go from today's we do have a public hearing tomorrow on the 7th and we expect final direct final adoption of any district changes or any new district plan on December 14th and council would then in early January discuss polling locations for today this is simply an opportunity for council to collectively develop any additional proposed district plans so the discussion today will start with the current district boundaries you have been provided copies of plans that have been submitted up to today so in your backup there was our current district boundaries which was plan a and then you had three additional proposed plans as they were described in that in that backup and then any plan or plans that are developed today can be considered for public comment tomorrow and can further be considered on December 14th for adoption at the end of the day staff would like direction on what plans council would like brought forward for public input tomorrow on December 7th for that public hearing and then as stated we do have plans that were previously discussed a B and C discussed at the last the last drawing session that staff had intended to bring forward tomorrow for that public hearing we also had a another plan submitted plan D late lacks last week that is included in your backup so that will also be brought forward tomorrow for the public hearing for public comments so we do have representatives from bigger staff with us Bob Heath is here and we also have someone on the call who's able to share their screen so that when council does engage in the drawing and moving of boundaries they can do that in real time and show the impact of each boundary movement so I will yield the floor to Bob and allow him to continue with the drawing session good morning morning as we said this is a drawing session and we will have the various plans that you can access can see on the screen and if you want to move a line here or there we can do that and you can see what the impact will be since you have various plans that have been submitted you know it may be that in talking about the plans you decide this is the one we really like and that you don't want to make any changes and that's fine or you can take one and say this is the one we'd like to work with and make changes to that or any of them as indicated there are four plans that we have ABC and D and they are lettered in the order that we got them a is the existing plan which is in balance drawn ten years ago and it's still within the 10% deviation so if you want to adopt that you certainly may Councilman Beck proposed a plan and that's plan B subsequently Mr. Davis Councilman Davis submitted one that's C and then Mr. Davis submitted a revised plan which we is D and as by happenstance it turns out assuming that the revised Davis plan is the operative of the two the Beck plan is B and the Davis plan is D so it's pretty easy to keep up with them so we can you know if is does the council have a feeling as to what plan they want to begin with or you know if there is some consensus or general feeling for one plan over the other we can do that by the way all these plans are drawn on whole voting precincts or love a B and D except indeed there is one precinct split down in the southeast part of the city I forget the precinct number and I think that has the effect of taking the landfill out of district one and it also I am told avoids a neighborhood split but so it is really unusual of a city of this size which is pretty good size city but to be able to do it with whole voting precincts because you know if you generally you have to move a few hundred people to get into balance and voting precincts are much larger than that so that it's worked out here that that was able to be accomplished and Councilman Beck and Davis have done an excellent job on that so is there feeling as to whether you like any particular ones of these or you want to take one and see about potential changes thank you yeah I'll leave there's a number of people seeking to speak but I think for the following reasons I'll give you my preference and I think we should go I'll have questions but I think you're you're right to fraction the conversation to start with preference then get into those questions concerns based on the results of that I'll tell you based on the we've received a lot of feedback via email from from the time off and that's giving a clear indication the fact that I you lean on my just one year ago I campaigned citywide and had a lot of conversations at doors personally and from that so personal experience factors into my direction the concern about my door minority districts and following the law guides my decision in that one of the plans would reduce the percentage in district one minority represent minority voting percentage and that is a key concern legally and so that drives my decision the fact that 27,000 potential voters would be affected by a plan guides my decision as we said we wanted to have minimal impacts apartment total people 27,000 voters eight almost 19,000 and then what also got my decision is we're a representative government and over 1,000 people overwhelm overwhelmingly voted and and just six months ago who they wanted to represent them and I think that's important as a representative government we have to hold the citizens vote supreme and then I just in summary I like the existing plan because it minimizes the effect on the voters they know where to go vote in just five months it minimizes confusion we only have five minutes five months to message and and and that's not enough time to message people these wholesale changes and and and then also I just don't think a symbol single member of this body should in the privacy of their home be able to create a map that then disenfranchises the vote of the people which is 1,000 people voted in the district three race just six months ago that selected councilmember Davis and he was unopposed I think that's important to know of all the people that were on that ballot he was the only one unopposed and that's accredits his work and I think from anyone on this dais to disenfranchise 1,000 voters in the privacy of their home to draft anything is is problematic for me so for those reasons and more I would prefer my voice of my preference for the existing plan councilmember bar thank you mayor um I you know I've stated this this in previously and I'd just like to reiterate that I would like to use councilmember backs map as a starting point I see that both he and I have the new precinct boundaries from the county open in front of us so I think I would like to start by having a discussion of how those new precinct boundaries might impact the the plans that had been previously presented mayor protein melter well I appreciate that both councilmembers Beck and Davis have put some serious time and thought and you went to their offerings and are responsive to your concerns that that I have that the existing map you know so really egregiously separates some communities within the city and you know I I've you know since we have the advantage of the authors of both plans here I would kind of like to hear them advocate how you know the relative strengths and virtues and I you know I'd like to keep an open mind and kind of decide after I you know I hear their you know their points so I'm just gonna just for tracking purposes you have no preference between those two no I like my preference is to hear the arguments from the authors and then to select one way or the other okay so no preference in advance councilmember Davis thank you mayor I would prefer to start with plan D as well and not just as the proponent of the plan y'all probably know by now that my favorite song is kumbaya I think that when we leave a process like this regardless of our personal politics regardless of our national politics we should walk away from this with a fair map that Denton believes to be a fair map and the people that sent us here believe was a an open exchange of ideas and that we came together not everybody got exactly what they wanted and that is why I propose plan D and the reason I'll go kind of down the criteria that we have for one plan D uses more identifiable geographic by boundaries 380 becomes a geographic boundary between district 3 and district 2 it's a little easier to tell folks you know right now I tell them hey if you're above kind of the clock hand of 77 you're in district 2 if you're below it you're in district 3 a lot easier to say if you're on one side of 380 or the other you're in district 2 or district 3 it also uses there's a lot of concern previously on council about the Deena neighborhood and that it wasn't readily identifiable to folks moving into that neighborhood are you supposed to be with the area that surrounds you or you with an area across the highway I've addressed that with this plan Deena would be moving into district 3 one of only four precincts that has to move under plan D which is another another point I think in its favor is that fewer people are affected which is one of our criteria that we use the existing map as the starting point so that most people don't get a new council member from the one they just voted for that most people don't have a new district that they have to learn about and vote in that most people most voters are left in the district they're in now communities of interest I've been listening as the council talks about communities of interest and we started with more of a mathematical bent with this that we were focused on population deviation and that's laudable but then we pivoted a little bit to communities of interest plan D is probably the map that I would have drawn ten years ago had I been on council the pecan neighborhood the entire stretch of Egan the entire stretch of panhandle stays in one district houses that are of similar age people of similar demographics folks that use folks that would have similar interests that would come before the City Council for instance Pecan Creek the various subdivisions in Pecan Creek all in one district for instance the Oak Hickory historic district all in one district they would have a I've been very frustrated I know councilmember Briggs I think was frustrated by having that district split right down the middle when they really have some common interests on either side of Oak Street in historic preservation those are issues that come before the city and represent a true community of interest mr. Heath mentioned already the only precinct split in plan D is to keep the landfill with the otherwise mostly unpopulated area in that voter precinct and then to put the pecan Creek the populated area that precinct with the other pecan Creek subdivisions the that was one of our criteria that voting precincts the district should be composed of whole voting precincts were possible and I've mentioned already that they need to reflect the existing map that the fewer people that we can have move the better but that's another of our criteria that's separate from just using the existing map as a basis that we should encourage and foster and preserve incumbent constituent relationships that doesn't just mean don't redistrict somebody out of their own district that also means to the mayor's point when folks voted for a representative that that representative is not replaced in short order by a stroke of the council's pen that that power is left at the at the ballot box so that's why my proposal only moves four precincts and only splits one as opposed to the alternative which affects as the mayor said 26,000 people 18 almost 19,000 voters then the final thing that I'll mention I've already talked about the pecan neighborhood I should be more clear when I say pecan I'm using not just pecan Creek which is an area of town but also pecan is one of our historic neighborhoods not yet designated historic but PECAN it's an acronym of some of the surrounding streets panhandle Egan Congress that's the neighborhood I grew up in I'm very familiar with it be very happy to represent it in district three so I think it's kind of been presented and people who are concerned about for instance Dina or some other neighborhoods coming back together or moving into a different district it's been presented that there's only one way to do that what I've tried to do with plan D is demonstrate there's not just one way to do that and there's actually a way that does that with a lower overall voter deviation because I get down to four percent which we've we've talked about needing to balance these criteria and I think plan D does the best job of balancing the criteria okay Councilman bet thank you mr. mayor I want to start off and say I would like to start just with the overview as councilman bar said of recent county commissioner changes if we can with a with an advanced preview that there's not really any impactful changes but I would rather hear that from from you than from me the and and then I applaud that we are we're taking all these guidelines really really seriously and and I think it goes to the point that we are trying to follow our unanimously adopted guidelines and we are trying to to adopt these ideas that we voted on that these were the particular characteristics that that will like that we want to uphold and that you know I'm gonna toot both councillor Davis's and myself my own horn I'm sure that we've spent hours and hours and hours staring at these maps and and I I guess I understand the mayor's concern that you know we have councillors doing things but that's the role of councillors councillor Davis did it I'm doing it we're we're intimately familiar with the city and what's going on and we we have the interest and the desire to to help redistrict if that's what we're gonna do and and so I I well I recognize the mayor's point on that I I think that is the appropriate job of council obviously I guess to get to the punchline I'm gonna favor be as my map I don't really particularly care which map we start on because the talking points will be the same and some of those are like what councillor Davis mentioned you know we have a host of nine criteria and you know we we look at you know things like you know as he said split precincts and I was able to design a map that had no split precincts we had we clearly have both tried to do our best to in our judgment keep together communities of interest I think that's that's laudable we're really trying hard to keep these traditional communities together in into amplify their voice and I think that goes to the point of the landfill if you chop up the neighborhoods of the people that live all around the landfill then you don't have a concerted voice of the people around the landfill to talk to the representative and say hey you know I'm all around the landfill it doesn't matter whether I'm one or two or three or four or any of the districts I'm I'm living near the landfill I would like to have a concerted amplified voice and not chop it up and diluted across multiple council districts so I on opposite of being a weakness of my plan or any of the plans that keep that entire district intact I think that keeping all those surrounding districts is a strength so I refute that and so then you know if you look at like compactness I think you know issues where you need to identify what are the traditional centers of these districts if we're keeping them close to the original map we're trying to follow tradition in history where the traditional centers of these maps and can we minimize distances between you know any swaps that we make in order to do echo partition or adjust minority ratios I think you know we can be mindful that as part of compactness we stay we keep them closer to the center of their their districts and so when we look at those kinds of things you know my map doesn't have any split precincts it uses whole voter precincts and there's not significant changes between previous and current ones there you know the map that I proposed I will say that one of the communities of interest that it's not it's not counselor Davis's fault but Denton High School is moving and it's it's moving up in would have stayed in district 3 by the old map but I think it's it's it's not an untoward thing to keep an eye on the traditional attendees of the people of Denton High School that's primarily the the Denton 3 and bits and pieces of sorry Denton 3 district 3 and bits and pieces of district 4 some other districts are here in there but predominantly district 3 and the Davis map would put all the major high schools except Geyer in to district 2 so it's you know you can I guess you know we can do that I guess if that's what council wants but I see that as not an improvement but as a as a worsening of the sort of communities of interest issue so you know in in general like we talked about geographic boundaries and Hickory Creek is a geographic boundary that goes all the way from out west of the city all the way down into the lake and my boundary falls on unknown geographic boundary you're on as one side of the creek you're you're in district 3 you're on the other side of the creek you're on district 4 so and then the other thing that's a little concerning to me about maybe moving four thousand well what was four thousand five what is it now 1058 other than the high school issue is is that splits the economic districts of razor ranch into two chunks and and I want to I want to the purpose of focusing on communities of interest and then making them as compact as possible is to amplify the voices of those communities of interest and not dilute them across multiple representatives who may or may not care and may focus on things that are concentrated in their district and so I don't want to split razor I don't want to split the high schools their councillor Davis and I am sure went round and not round around with each other but round around with the software trying to balance these these maps as best we can and the center of town is just tricky it is just a tricky proposition where all the districts come together to figure out exactly where you draw the line and I'm sure everyone did a full faith effort to try to balance the populations I just think that that mine keeps a higher minority ratio across the city districts and I think that it follows those geographic boundaries and and generally in every category of our criteria at least taken as a whole is a slightly better proposition and I'm going to stop now because my voice is fading before I come back to you counselor counselor bird you hadn't been heard want to give you an opportunity before we get into details thank you very much good morning everyone firstly I want to thank the members of the community for being very outspoken on this matter it is a clear it's a clear demonstration and the people who have vested interest in this topic are passionate about where they live work and play that visit interest most likely our homeowners secondly I'm very appreciative of the voters in my district to give me this opportunity to speak for them on this important and probably life-changing decision I hope that I will satisfactorily convey the thoughts of the community as a whole and my job is to say what they are thinking I do think that the majority of the folks in this district one will go with plan B and this is a reason why and say this matter before us does not affect district one in a significant way in terms of the number in the criteria so I'm gonna speak on the social aspects of that distinction momentarily district three and four harmony for us today it's both are looking forward to a significant and necessary change district two is simply shifting or not and the notation is intertwined into the district one that particular notation is entwined into discussion of this one so we want to I want to remove the emotion and the fear the lack of understanding of why we are conversing at all and that is future growth future growth encompasses everything that we have going on here homes utilities our schools and her retail and the growth pattern indicates a significant growth change to district three in and we know that in the next ten to twenty years we know that that location is going to bring in massive growth and I would prefer to absorb the designated line at this point to return to retain the continuity of the percentages as we grow in that area in other words we know that that massive growth is coming to district three here in the next several years and so what that's gonna do in my mind as I understand is that those folks that are already being contemplated to move over into district four those groups of people those groups of constituencies are gonna have more in common at that time as we're growing then those new people all of this other massive growth that's foreshadowed it's going to have so there's gonna be some distinction there I think we should keep that in mind now we're gonna also agree that the Dean is should stay in district four because of the exact same thing that I just mentioned a moment ago they are still going to have that distinction with what district four looks like right now so I think we should leave them there and they want to be left there now district one's consternation at this point is the absorption of the landfill for the most part in all other conversations that we are having are mostly agreements to that particular contrary concern I and I put in parentheses here we are logically thinking that the landfill being moved to district one creates a line of continuity in the pecan Creek area right now as I look at those lines are just so jagged some of those folks and I know what district they were in when they were calling me and telling me that my name wasn't on the ballot and so when I recognize that my name wasn't on the ballot is because they were not in my district and they lived just streets over from one another moving that line over and around that landfill is only going to help those folks over in that area understand what district that they're in I believe that Councilman Davis had made a point about that so it's going to smooth out the boundaries which were clearly gerrymandered I will put that in there it's very very jagged and it it just doesn't seem you know it doesn't seem as though that there wasn't some partisan this going on in there so if we claim that we're nonpartisan this makes sense to you now the landfill and it's up that's what triggered me when I heard someone mention that and I think I also read that information from the opinion of our one of our former mayors I'm talked about the optics of the landfill being just one I think that the district is one that is inclusive well I know that the district is one that is inclusive and as a welcoming to all that want to be here we boast our diversity and we are proud of who we are this district is the core of the city this is the optimum place in Denton to live work thrive and play just think we have a world-class public institution in our district of higher learning we have a D mega church in town we have Shiloh Gardens we have the best beer bars wine bars we have the authentic Mexican restaurants are in our district we have local retail and I'm thinking about the dine store and all of those small local shops that we have in our district we have a mall we have big liquor stores we have a regional trauma hospital we have great hotels business headquarters classic neighborhoods high-end neighborhoods we have homeless folks in our community we have family complexes and I'm thinking about a municipal areas that we have decisions are being made or in district one great parks we have also family complexes if I had noted that before so there is a lot of things going on in our district we're so diverse we're so fun we're eclectic we and I appreciate living in district one myself I can get to everything that I need pretty much without going out of my district so here's the thing the landfill and it's optic we are inclusive we will we live by the landfill we work by the landfill is just the landfill and as a matter of fact is one of the best landfills in the region we just had our director of the landfill to speak before us and tell us how great the landfill it is it's environmentally friendly we have a brand new apartment complex is coming up right across the street from the landfill and I have a feeling it's probably gonna use that word luxury that's associated with that facility that's coming up across the street from the main field so I don't want the landfills optics to get in the way of what is really just sensible and that is continuity and lines being drawn now the area that's leading north on Dallas Drive when we were looking at when I was looking at Bix plan and understanding some numbers some apartment complexes that might be dropped off that's over on the west side of Dallas Drive it's just a few just a few folks where I think that the primary concern of the demographics of the group and I'm sure we'll pick up the racial demographics as we pull in some of those areas that was gerrymandered out down there near between district one and district two think that that makes up for that so with all of that being said let's let's do the right thing when we're talking about continuity for district one and I am so proud of district one I'm proud of the people and I'm proud for everyone you know take an opportunity to voice your opinion about what you think especially if you're a homeowner here we want you to be proud of where you are and we want you to stay all right thank you guys okay and councillor Amartya do you want to be heard before I go back around thank you yes thanks to everyone who has spoken so far and thank you council member bird for mentioning the the g-word gerrymandering you know it's a sensitive word to use and but I do believe that the districts as they are currently distributed are rather gerrymandered and I see plan B as a an un gerrymandering in ways that have already been articulated so well by you just now and by councilmember Beck earlier so for that reason I strongly support proposal B it does the best job of these two plans in meeting all of our criteria especially keeping communities of interest together where our current map breaks them up now I have read every single one of the emails that we have received primarily from people and and ropes and ranch at first were concerned about the splitting up of ropes and ranch which nobody had proposed and now seem to be just you know wanting to retain the representation that they currently have while I understand that the important thing about about this map is that it does not dilute the voting power of ropes and ranch or any other community group it retains that that voting power just shifting it into another district that is more of a community interest while preserving the the community of Denia and keeping it and or rather returning it to the community in which the Denia neighborhood Association feels that it is already a part in everything except name and that is district 3 the way that and speaking of district 3 finally in district 3 we very much have it a tale of two cities all wrapped up in one district we've got many many tenants people who are not just students but of course we've got a number of students but also young families older people people of all all ages who are renters big percentage population of renters in the city of Denton and we've also got some of the wealthiest property owners in the entire city of Denton all in the same district and these tend to be off these are very different groups there's also a difference especially if you're looking at ropes and ranch big difference in in age and so to retain the community group of of ropes and and to place them in district 4 which is is more heavily which which better represents the concerns of older and property owning members of our community in a way that does not dilute as district 3 currently does the voting interests of of the many tenants and many younger people and younger families of district 3 so again currently I believe that the vote of younger people and tenants is diluted in district 3 and I believe that Beck's plan B corrects that without diluting anybody's voting power and without breaking up any communities okay so mr. Heath I want you to have an opportunity a couple of people have labeled your plan that you draft is gerrymandered so I want you to be able to speak to that I assume you have an opinion if you don't that's fine you can let that lay or you can speak to it but either way before that mr. Hudson if you want to come speak before we get into the details let's do that did you call on another yeah is that is there a problem with with the public speaking am I I see people okay got it good just wanted to okay thank you for the correction I just saw reactions like I was doing something wrong so I wanted to address that do my best uh Don Duff and perfect thing to impersonation okay Germany your last map well you know I wouldn't say that any of these fit the classic definition of gerrymandering gerrymandering typically involves drawing very convoluted districts perhaps with little in common to achieve some political purpose and while certainly there may be political purposes the people are talking about I don't think that the that any of these would rise to that level okay and so this city manager correct me if I'm wrong the majority of the council indicated an indication to start with councilmember backs but I do see a glaring issue and that is councilmember bird stipulated that she wanted Dina to stay in for that would then materially different this distance her opinion from the other three is that what you see yes mayor I see four for the plan B with the issue that councilmember bird raised which was to let Dina stay in in the current district okay so council member does that change your mind or are you holding to that go ahead oh yes I am going to stay with us plan B mix plan and you're fine with Dina meet being moved to four I am fine with Dina being moved to four is that part of that is that they're staying in for no no they Brian Peck's plan moves them from four to three I need to understand yes okay well the well the folks noted that they prefer to stay where they are so wherever that is that's not a personal thing for me but I will note that I'm in favor of Brian Becks plan so it's just part of the conversation at this point isn't it well there's nothing consensus and so I need to consensus would be okay all right well if you're gonna we're gonna put it you know take it to that level there that stick to it this there will just say I'll go with Brian Becks plan period okay thank you okay so you can that's where we are we'll start with councilman Becks plan to start the discussion councilmember Davis thank you mayor as some of my colleagues have noticed noted we did have some vocal input on this issue I've spoken to over a hundred people either by email or Facebook or some other way money and in person conversations I've taken meetings on this we have I've got in my inbox over a hundred emails about eighty five or ninety of those are from residents of Robeson Ranch I've got six of those from Dina a handful of those most of them are for moving Dina into district three a two very vocal folks well known to this council against moving Dina into three and then I have two folks that I heard from in the pecan neighborhood and one of those expressed a desire that the pecan neighborhood which extends across Carroll Boulevard be together and that's something I think was expressed ten years ago I think it's something as the representative of district three when I looked at the map I said why is this neighborhood not that's contiguous has the similar housing stock similar people live there why a similar mix of owner occupied renter occupied why are these neighborhoods not together which is why I tried to my map to combine combine those the previous precinct was 4009 as the one that was separate from three and in two and when I talked to those folks Dina Robeson and pecan pecan didn't put his final point on it Dina and Robeson both want to be in district three that is possible to do moving very few precincts we can do that starting with the Beck plan or we can do that starting with the Davis plan either way it can be done if it's not done it makes it very clear to the people of Denton what the intent is the intent is to put Robeson in a district where we believe that people like ropes and people happen to live that's been expressed they don't want to be there they have been the most vocal in this process they don't want to be in district four they want to stay in district three I've yet to hear a reason articulated as to why their input is less valuable than the handful of folks we heard from in Dina and the couple of folks I heard from in pecan if we're going to start with with plan B I'd also like to point out that you divide the Southridge neighborhood which is north of Teasley Hobson excuse me to get my streets wrong north of Teasley you have and Lillian Miller you have row South Southridge proper the circle streets south of that you've got Southridge estates you've got Southridge east and west there are neighborhoods there that are communities of interest that are now divided by the Beck plan in addition to the oak history hickory historic district the pecan neighborhood and the others already mentioned so the first change I'd like to make would be to move the Southridge precinct back into fort where it is now where they've been voting for ten years longer keep Dina and three and then move the previous precinct 4005 which now has two different precinct numbers back into three I'll also mention on the issue of the split the ropes and folks we heard of heard from early on they didn't want to didn't want the council to split them I spoke with each of them they were talking about the county which has now divided them into two voter precincts and they reiterated they also don't want to be split from district three if the council wants we can put up plan B on the screen if you want to consider some changes to it we can do those and you can see what the impact would be yeah I was going to take your guidance I mean because it's going to be it's going to vacillate wildly and so need your experience on the best way procedurally to get get moving towards an end well if the council believes that plan B without modifications is the way to go and if there is a general consensus on that it may be that that's where we are and we can say that's the one we're going to present to the public if you want to you know typically in these things you don't end up with two or three good plans which we have here that are all in balance that I think are legally defensible and you know so people take a plan and move something here or move something there and try to work that out one of the things is if you do that on any of these you're probably going to end up splitting some precincts maybe not and if you split a precinct that can be okay if there's a good reason to do it but if you you know one of the things is good not to split precincts and you have a plan that doesn't split any but we can put it up and can move it to see what some of the things that Councilman Davis or anybody else has to suggest as a modification see if the council likes that so do you prefer if that's what you prefer to do if everybody's fixed on B like I say I don't see any reason to modify but we're happy to do it and we have the capability of doing that okay well then let's just take that is there other than Councilmember Davis is and I'm gonna note a screen for a minute and maybe look at hands I don't I don't know how else to navigate this but is there anyone else that would have proposed changes to and really just for it there's four people that support it as is right so I need to hear from those four primarily if there's no movement there then we can to the consultant's point I can have my record of my concerns and we can move on till tomorrow with with the plan as is so of the four so there's McGuire Councilmember McGuire Councilmember Beck Councilman Byrd Councilman Arbitrary you four support it as is do you have a position where you'd have see any changes seeing none okay then we'll just make a record we'll be done for today so count me for some else so you can speak but will my understanding is there's a consensus to move forward as is yeah thank you you know because I expressed the desire to kind of hear both arguments and kind of think about it because that's that's why the charter has us meet we can listen to each other I'll tell you the thing that just resonates with me first of all I I think there are you know there are very good arguments that have been advanced the thing that sticks with me is that before people had even seen plans but they you know just kind of heard like rumors or whatever the two things that I heard kind of organically was don't don't split up ropes and ranch and I heard from folks in Deenia saying we don't want to be in the same district as ropes and ranch because we think we're too different so the keeping communities of interest together but not you know kind of smushing together communities that see themselves as very different B does that best so I would join with the majority in that all right and so my question is for you mr. Heath could you I gave you an advance the that I was gonna ask for the percentage change in district one with the with the with councilmember Beck's addition of the changes so what is what is the percentage minority district percentage district one is currently 18 and some change percent it changes to what after if plan four is adopted all right all right in the existing plan the black population in district one and by black that's non-hispanic black that's me it's defined is 18 point five two percent of total population in B it is seventeen point two two so it's about one point three percent diminution and probably if we look at voting age it's going to be about the same and give me that again one point what one point three I think I said okay yes just wanted to make sure I had a clear record because I'm gonna and on voting age it goes from eighteen point two three to sixteen point nine four and again that's about one point roughly one point three happen not well if the original is eighteen point two oh no voting age would be different maybe from a different starting point it's gonna be a little the percentage is gonna be different yeah right okay but it's about the same percentage drop not exactly you know there's some hundreds involved sure okay and so for let me get there sorry okay and then for me the so the Voting Rights Act forbids voting standard practice a procedure of having effect on redistricting opportunity members you know cover minority proceeds you know people can arrive at their own decisions there that's that I just wanted to have a record there and then do you have an or can you produce a a definition when you're talking about traditional neighborhoods community of interest you know those sort of things can you can you give me a definition of that because it wasn't in your list of definitions yeah and and I don't know that there is a standard definition I think typically people on the council will have their own idea of what constitutes a neighborhood in some cities they have maps that identify the neighborhoods and specifically also homeowners associations and in such so I would assume and people have been talking about Robson ranch that that's one that's probably pretty easy to identify because you know sounds as if it's done by particular developer and you know I'm sure it has boundaries others the boundaries may not be as distinct but typically as representatives of the public you will know what people consider to be their neighborhood certainly in my neighborhood I mean where I live there's an area that I refer to if you go to the subdivision maps it may have a little different name because they're a little different but people generally know that for example it's Northwest Hills you know that's that general area so you know I can't give you a specific definition but it's one that I think typically members of the council will recognize as particular neighborhoods our communities of interest for example the area around the University that's almost certainly a community of interest because people live near and often work near that area or that institution and so they have that particular interest okay and my other question would be and I didn't give you enough time to look this over so we can talk about it tomorrow but I sent over to our mr. city attorney did you have time to forward that it was just before the meeting so I don't know that I've given you time to forward it to mr. Heath but I there's a marked up kind of response that I didn't give you time to review that I'd ask you to maybe take this evening to look at and there's a bunch of what I'm highlighting is yeah there's a bunch of yes so there's a bunch of verbs there some of them being splintered away peeled away and let's see what else so it's just a number of verbs there that that I want to get either you you know I'm not I'm not putting you on the spot I just want you to have a chance to review that's when been shared and then have have a response to that but this is a map you drew so I think that's irrelevant and so that doesn't have to be I want to give you time to look that over and so in summation for me I think I would echo what councilmember Davis has said this is again kind of a tough spot because we are a representative government I understand that the maps were drawn but we have two maps that fit our criteria better that have not garnered garnered majority input and I think that exposes us to legal implications we have the fact that the percentage is lowered amongst minority voters and I and I love how that's phrased its its phrased as let me see where my notes are I'll come back to it tomorrow practice yeah yeah it was it was it was very well phrased but the net result is less than great right but I understand that that there's there's there's colorful ways that you can say you're diluting the minority vote and and hopefully gain traction so there's there's that concern but then also this this council has shown we gave clear direction that said here's our priorities our priorities are to get as close to when your plan was presented as as it currently set at seven percent the plan was hey we can get closer to zero we were provided quotes of that last week we have two plans that get closer to zero that aren't garnering attention and and I agree with Councilmember Davis that gives the public plenty to understand and they can be heard tomorrow so I look forward to that that conversation and those people being present and able to speak for themselves and I and I anticipate we'll have a significant amount of people that are watching this today that want to be heard tomorrow and then I also think though as a representative government again that just to kind of touch on this briefly we had a community a district that there was only there's four seats it was the only seat that was unchallenged because of the representative and I think not all representatives are the same and so you know I think the newsletters the advocacy the meeting the meetings those sort of thing are key to who represents you and that should not be changed that relationship that should not be affected by this body we should not ignore 1,000 vote we represent the people the people at the top of our org chart we've received I'll take councilmember Davis's numbers because I didn't tally them but we've received hundreds of emails and they've expressed how they want to be treated and I think it's noteworthy Robeson Ranch neighborhood is not speaking out of turn they're saying hey we like the representative we have they've done good work for us and we would want maintain that representative in that district and they're being heard and this body has said in numerous occasions that you should speak and say what you want affected and we would hear that respond to that and and I've not heard any response today to that note that 1,000 plus people voted and it's hard enough to get people to vote and 1,000 plus people voted in the non contested race for a councilmember that they wanted to represent them and this body would stand one day away from considering removing that that representation and then lastly I'll say this I represented district one for a number of years there's not there's there's a reason I sit in this chair and I'm gonna I'm gonna gloat just a little bit but I come from the lowest turnout district district one maximizes about 800 votes to come out of that and win an at large race you don't do that by not being connected with the pulse of the city I think I have the pulse of the city very well better than any freshman council member that's never been reelected that's never campaigned city wide so I don't I don't take those notes and I don't take that accomplishment lightly and I don't take the accomplishment that I'm the only one that looks like me that sat in the seat without understanding I have a pulse for this city second to few so I take it very serious what we're doing today I hope that people show up tomorrow and and have their voice heard and I'll say this if if a person doesn't know because I run into this all the time in district one if a person after ten years of being in district one doesn't know who represent them then how is that messaging going to get out in five months I think that's proof of the concern that you're pivoting and changing things and people can't keep up and it the it'll be after the fact if this survives that 18,724 voters go to the wrong place on election day and and and and I think you know when we're going to when we're going to voting citizens great but that's not this election and so it there's a problem this election that we're failing to to steer clear of and and that is unfortunate but primary most chief amongst that if I'm talking to the citizens you voted that's hard enough to vote five percent of people vote for councilmember Davis because of his representation because of his news letters because of his advocacy because he lived in Denton for so long and works well with those those communities and that's being wiped out by the stroke of a pen by a single member count by a council member at home that has never I've not seen one email one iota of data that says I talked to people citywide and said this is what I'm hearing here's the proof of that it's all just interpretation of where the center of things are and and I'll say this district one has TW which is a college campus has Southeast Denton which primarily African-American community it has Sequoia Park which is a close-knit smaller community it has pecan Creek which is a newer development in their bill of the foot post oak and it has a mall retail versus the square retail so you would talk about like communities you you have to breach those to come up with with plans and and and what's been proposed goes beyond and and and to my point to my thought mutes the the vote of the people which is it's a lot of delineation we should not cross thank you very much see you tomorrow and then so yeah you know well you know he can this is going to be discussion but I don't know that you're gonna have questions councilman back just want to see thank you mr. mayor my questions were were not directed to the air but to mr. Heath and and that was for the point about minority we heard a lot on the dice about minority ratios and one of the things that we were particularly interested in was there at least just a second ago was changes in those but could you when you prepare for tomorrow's presentation could you sum the minority to to white ratios because as I understand it while we do we want to make sure that we we don't break up any individual minority group considering the the lower demographics in general most of the time you're looking at the court cases involving overall minority ratios is that correct yes if you're looking at cases under the Voting Rights Act typically a case is going to involve a situation where a minority group is sufficiently large and geographically compact to be able to constitute a majority in a single-member district and that's something that case called Thornburg versus jingles decided 1986 by the Supreme Court and that's the standard that they set and it's been followed ever since it's been refined some and in this circuit you determine that majority by citizen voting age population so it's not a majority of the total populations majority of the voting age population and among that the citizen voting age population and that has the effect in an african-american district citizen voting age probably a little higher than voting age in a largely hispanic district it will be lower but typically in these cases you're going to see that size so of a minority group so it's very hard to bring a case where the minority group is relatively small compared to the possible district so one of the things if you wouldn't mind doing is if we could calculate the the overall because this is a column that is present in and the DRA software that is it present in in the presentations that you've given is the summation of the various non-white populations so if you wouldn't mind including that summation of minority overall representation because I think it can be tricky to decide you know let let a let a community decide whether they're a black community or hispanic community or hispanic black community or let the community decide how they want to be represented represented and I think it might be easier just to reference non-white so if you could include that column and and the reason and I'll just be upfront the reason I want to include those columns is map B does a better job at increasing minority representation across the city one thing if if you're interested in the non-white basically I mean you can take the tables that you have and subtract the non-hispanic Anglo from a hundred and that's going to give you that because everybody else is either black hispanic multi-race Asian Hawaiian Pacific Islander not very many of those and I don't think there are any others but if the non-hispanic is or non-hispanic Anglo is 45 then the non-white is going to be 55 right and I'm happy I'm happy to stipulate that but I think because there's a difference of opinion I'd rather maybe just the backup of our consultant with those numbers rather than than just I mean I agree with you that that's easy to do you know we can add and subtract the number of Caucasians but and in fact some software does it already and and so just in the sake of being fair and open if you wouldn't mind doing that so that's not it's your numbers and not my numbers I'd appreciate that okay and if that's not a two owners that show yeah as far as relevance of that too in the Fifth Circuit if you start combining those groups they have to be cohesive with one another and that becomes something that you know it's it's very difficult to show and requires a lot of political science election analysis and so forth but because one group may not necessarily be cohesive with the other member to melt sir yes thank you mayor you know concerns been raised about people being confused about where to go vote and I just wanted to explore that a little bit is that does this does either map or any change necessarily change where people vote you know we just I know we distribute typically polling places you know by you know by district so we have like two per district and so on but in terms of the assignment well if I can just say one one sense more before you respond like for instance you know I was actually by my motion some years back that we made ropes and ranch a polling place and like I would expect to continue to have ropes and ranch be a polling place with whatever district they were in so if you wouldn't mind addressing the question now whoever can if not you yeah what does it do does either map necessarily change where people need to go to vote no assuming that you go if you were in precinct 1063 and I'm pulling that out of the air and it had a particular polling place if the county has not changed that polling place you'd go to the same polling place but you might be voting in a different district you know before maybe you're voting in one and now you're voting in two but the polling place wouldn't change now the county may be changing polling places but that's going to happen if that happens it happens irrespective of what we're doing here typically you know we recommend a list council recommends a list of county and then county approves but you know I take your point that with the same polling places people could still go to you know the places they've always gone to whether the map changes as I understand you do contract with the county to run the election don't you yep yeah okay great thank you Chancellor Davis thank you mayor we have in front of us kind of a summary of the changes in plan B and plan D did you prepare that or did somebody on city staff know we got a request that I got this morning I think it was made yesterday but I didn't get it to this morning so I called my office and asked them to do that and it tells as was requested how many people in each plan or in a different district than they were under the existing plan a sure do you know if we have the ability to put that on the document camera or because we're zooming do you know do you know if we have the ability to put that on the document camera that's there to your right or if that's something that we're not able to do yeah I would think we can I think some Ryan can we can we please put that up yes I think we can councilmember Davis and mr. Heath if you have it in front of you if you don't just kind of to prep I have questions about precinct 4003 that's the old number that's been split into 4184 and 4183 and precinct 4037 that's the old number the new number is 4176 okay so the very the very first column is the district numbers the next one that list precinct numbers at the bottom under plan B there's precinct 4003 do you see what I'm talking about mm-hmm can you tell us how many voters are in precinct 4003 well it's forty three thousand sixty nine which is higher than the population and I don't know why that is that is not always incorrect sure and I'd have to check with my people because like I say I got this when I was driving up here I took a break called and so I haven't been involved in preparing that sometimes you have differences although it's probably more likely later in the census period but if an area you know may have grown and they're more registered voters there used to be or people register to vote they've gone off to college maybe they register at home but they're counted at the college so you know it happens but that's sort of unusual there's a deviation between the census data and the number of voters and yeah and I would imagine that that's probably I don't know what that district is but if it's an old is it an older district it is okay and it may be to that the voting rolls haven't been cleaned up so one of the regardless one of those two numbers either population or voters is is different from each other I mean some the data somewhere has a discrepancy we can yeah and it comes in two different data sources exactly thank you for making that point for me then over in the plan D column under district three or to the right of district three do you see precinct 4037 yeah and how many voters are in that precinct 1902 okay I'll represent to you that precinct 4003 is Robeson Ranch and the precinct 4037 the new numbers 4176 is the Deena neighborhood and the only reason I bring that up for my colleagues is to point out that we heard from the board of a neighborhood association and a handful of folks by email who are also board members of a neighborhood association who wanted to move Deena into three some who said they didn't want to be in the same district with Robeson we heard from almost a hundred people at Robeson a precinct that has a higher population a higher voting population that said they wanted to stay in district three yes I'm sorry I have another question for you in just a second okay well I was gonna ask you something on sure on that in 4003 does that include the university itself and the norms 4003 does not there are no dormitories in that and then in 4176 excuse me the former 4037 that's on the plan D column that does include some university housing so I just want my colleagues to be aware of the fact that the tail knows what the dog is being wagged that people are paying attention and that people know what's going on up here on the dais the my second question has to do with so you're not here to advise us on any really policy decisions you're here to advise us on the the legal landscape and kind of how some of our numerical consequences factor into that is that basically that is absolutely correct the policy decision is up to the council nobody elected me and I want to be careful not to claim any policy preference but telling you if something's legal or not so between Plan B and D which has the lowest deviation total voter population voting age population deviation just pure numbers as I recall D has the lowest one I think B was lower than a correct and D was lower than B and I'd have to look at them to see the exact numbers but that's my recollection would would you say and if this is to kind of quantitative a statement tell me but would you say that the voting voting age population deviation the reason why the courts are interested in that number specifically when we're talking about certain voter populations you know in minority populations that kind of stuff but the reason why the courts look at that number is fundamentally about fairness that there's a fair and equitable distribution across all districts yes and I would amend what you said just a little bit when you're talking about deviation we're talking about total population with we when we look at voting age population we're not measuring deviation whether one district is bigger than another that's that's done on total population thank you for clarifying that for me okay and if we can pivot back team off the document camera counselor bird had a question or statement yeah they're good they got it okay thank you firstly my my my number one concern my what what's kind of rattling me right now is my concern is that people are not looking at this exercise in a manner for what it what it is and that's to have a conversation about a situation and so what I am recognizing though as we're speaking is that we're we're somehow we are attaching ourselves to personally attaching ourselves to these conversations and I'm going to see about were asked that we detach our personal selves from what we need to do here and stay off of personalities when we're having these discussions because these personalities are going to be changing here you know as soon as the next go around for voting possibly so I'm concerned that when I'm hearing that you know the people over in Robeson they really you know appreciate Councilman Davis and and you know I'm not taking anything away from Davis Davis knows how much I care about him but what what they're doing is are they attaching themselves to stay in these areas because of a representative that's one of the things that I want us to be mindful of as we're going through this conversation and also Mr. Mayor I want to ask that you also be mindful of how you are choosing your words and it sounds like you're attaching me to you know the situation that's going on over in just one I'm not the I'm not the the I'm not the guru here I am just speaking as I know but that doesn't have anything to do with me personally that has to do with the logic of it and the understanding of the people that I spoke with and you're probably speaking to different people I do know that you have a personal concern about the Southeast Indian area you live there grow up there I got all of that but also live in district one and when I'm speaking I'm speaking to the entire district as a whole and also looking at those specifics and but that is something that I'm just not feeling and getting from you as the leader of the entire city so and I understand that it may be something that you know because you that's your that's your hood that's your place that's where you grew up I understand the protectiveness of it and I'm certainly protective of it as well my children grew up with a number of kids in that neighborhood and I pretty much live my adult life in and out of that neighborhood we all know that so but the primary thing right now is I want to make sure that whenever we're having these discussions that they do not get personal they not do not become personal attacks to any one of us I want us to be respectful in that right but I'm also thinking about district three and four as well again I'll just reiterate my thoughts in that moving and going with this back plan it allows us to get ahead of what is coming in terms of the growth prospects for district three and it and it's only getting bigger and it's getting different those people that are going to be moving in here in the next 10 15 20 years going out that way are going to be different types of homeowners and buyers that it's going to probably put those folks that's in that particular segment of Robeson Ranch it's going to be able to they're going to be you have more in common the commonality is going to be closer to what's going on over in district four so I'll just stop right there but again I will continue to speak on if I if I am thinking that I'm being disrespected here in terms of what I know what I do who I am I am very proud of who I am I do consider myself a success in my own right from where I grew up I grew up in the hardest parts of Houston and so I don't expect to be this disrespected I do have a lot to grow I've only been on the City Council for since May and so there's a lot to learn and a lot for me to appreciate but I'm just gonna do my very best to make the right decision and right now that's playing it is as it is drawn is what I'm going to support thank you thank you mr. Heath or maybe one of your colleagues can you indicate the the populations of the new 1058 which is the old 4005 now which precinct the it's the old 4005 the new 1058 I'm sorry the old 4005 or it's also the new 1058 I don't know what your software is using and and I well while you look that up I have my recollection is that that's roughly 3900 people and so it's it seems to me that we're we're discussing you know 4,000 people versus 4,000 people and sometimes council has to do math and balance those similar sorts of segments and I take councillor Davis's you know he had a tough job trying to balance 4,000 and 5,000 against each other I did as well it's it's challenging so you know it looks to me if I'm if I'm not mistaken that that 4,000 people is very close to the center of traditional center of d3 which you know is is that that zone sort of you know right around fry Street and whatnot and so it's a you know I think it's it's challenging sometimes you have to make some tough choices you have to say well you know do I move this 4,000 that's close or that 4,000 that's further away and I think people are trying full-faith effort to try to balance the population to keep communities together to keep them intact if they have to split them out of there and splitting is the wrong word because no one is really trying to split anybody all the maps proposed are trying to maintain communities and I applaud councillor Davis and I'll plug myself why not for trying to do that but especially you know I think you know you when you're moving large chunks of population around but but I guess if hopefully during this me stalling for time your your your person was able to get the numbers for 4005 was I was I too subtle I was trying to stall for time I don't know well that's fine we can do that you can maybe bring it back to us tomorrow when you have an opportunity but it's my recollection from the last time I looked at the map that that's roughly 39 and change 4,000 people as well okay any other any other questions for the consultant see none I just want to summarize with this and then we'll be done if you're going to put together as councilmember Beck requested a percentage or whatever that is that you put together I'm gonna ask that the request read at the top your statement that you were provided to us in the legal world it would be under optional optional completeness in this world it's keeping everything fair and balanced your statement to us is quote there does not appear to be a need to redraw the existing council districts based on the 2020 census numbers so anything you provide in relation to changing that needs at the top to have that quote that you provided if you're not willing to put that on there then I don't think it's fair to add an additional additional out analysis without context and if one person is gonna ask you that's just my that's my that's my counter to that then the other thing I'd say is this I'd ask you tomorrow because details matter understand I was talking to you about a representative and people being confused by who represents them that was my example not anyone else and I want to stipulate this when I the entire time I've served on this council the best I can recall we vote on the whole budget we vote on things that affect the entire city we don't vote on single-member district issues at all nothing before us comes as a single member district and I never adopt that theory maybe that's just me but that that's my approach we we deal with whole city issues at all times so that I never get bogged down into those little nuances where people want to put you we have issues that we address as this council irrespective of who elect us we have the same voice seven people one voice now the slide of hand is this I talked to you about people being confused about who represents them the sleight of hand was where they go vote that I need you to be attuned to the nuances that are getting thrown at you and it's unfortunate that you're in this space but you're in this space and so we got to talking about where people vote and off the fact of people confused on who represents them and so that's my key is that we and I'll try my best to help you tomorrow stay on to point out those sleight of hand moves and whatever iterations but that that's the issue and that is to me remains an issue and you didn't discuss it you discussed it where people vote but the fact that a matter is people confuse about who they vote for is my concern I was responding to a question that's right and I thought that the answer I gave was you're going to vote in the same place if you're in the same precinct but you may not be confused as you may be voting for a different person yes yeah that's important and then I'll just say this for those that that because this is what I'm going to communicate to those that's important I'm absolutely sensitive to again sleight of hand spin whatever you want to call it and so here's the fact for those watching that I'll speak to an increase in minority representation across the city let me a potential definition of that just like there's a there's no known definition for traditional center or like communities together there's no there's no uniform definition a potential definition for increase across the city and minority increase of minority representation representation across the city would be to remove minority representation from district 1 right that that is a logical if you're going if we're looking at the city as whole and you're saying we're going to pull from the minority vote in and in equally distributed across the city then the largest minority voting block would then be used to even out across the city I mean that that's just that's again that's whole number simple math and as a minority in the city of Denton I don't think that's a good thing and I could be absolutely wrong that's my single opinion and my life experience and I'm entitled to it and I would not suggest that to any city that they evenly distributed yes I can I'm not suggesting that I hope there's nothing that I've said that is interpreted as suggesting that it's just it's just how it's presented so you got to be careful about that okay Councilman Meltzer I see you not but we I'd asked before if there are any other questions I was going to summarize so I'd ask you to hold your question until next week or tomorrow it's 130 it's 105 if there's nothing else from city staff I'm going to conclude okay so 105 apartment change 106 will conclude today's agenda we'll get you your questions and I have some additional questions I'll get to legal and we'll do it all again tomorrow thank you very - Thank you very much.