Good evening and welcome to the City of Denton Traffic
Safety Commission meeting
of Monday February 5th 2018. It's 530 we have a quorum. We
're going to look at the
first item for individual consideration which is 1A TSC 18-
006 which is to
hold a discussion and appoint a chairperson and vice chair
person for the
Traffic Safety Commission. Do we have any nominations from
the floor?
I'll nominate Patrice's chair.
Second.
That was fast.
We were already sitting there.
I'll nominate Daniel Krupp for vice chair.
I'll second.
He shows up.
Okay.
Any other nominations? Any discussion? Any campaign stumps?
Speech.
I will make all your Traffic Safety Commission needs happen
.
Does that give you the guaranteed parking space?
Yeah this could be corrupt real quick. No I'm kidding.
Yeah I'd be happy to serve and I've worked with Patrice and
I think can hopefully help out.
Thank you.
Alright shall we take a vote? We have a slate of chair and
vice chair. Everyone agrees?
Okay. I'm voting for you not for me.
Okay.
Moving on then.
Excuse me.
Okay. Item 1B TSC 18-007 is to consider the approval of the
Traffic Safety Commission meetings of January 3rd, 2018.
Did everyone have a chance to look at the minutes? Does
anybody have any changes? Any amendments?
Do I have to abstain from approving it since I wasn't here?
I think that technically yes.
Call for the vote.
Anybody want to move approval?
One motion.
Okay. Second?
Second.
All in favor?
Aye.
Yes. Okay.
With one abstention.
With one abstention. Okay. And then 1C TCS 18-009 to
receive a report, hold a discussion regarding short term
small transportation projects.
Thank you, Preetem.
Good evening everyone. I'm Preetem Deshmukh, the traffic
engineer for the city. And this item is, and the next one
is a discussion item.
Just no real actions are needed at this time. I just wanted
to make sure that the Traffic Safety Commission was aware
of what was going on in the council, what kind of projects
are getting approved and moving forward,
and why they were, some of them were kind of not really
bypassed, but why they were really cut down on scheduled
and expedited.
It was a direct council request. So let me start with the
first one, which is the small transportation projects.
It all began, I think, back in August when the council,
city council retreat happened, council gave direction to
the executive team to come up with real short term, smaller
projects that could fix intersections.
So let me, actually, visual person.
And so, the management team came to staff and they're like,
which are these projects that we can actually move forward
and address some of the congestion issues and we came up
with a list and if you look at their list of intersections,
we had a list of about 20 intersections and other
improvement projects within that list. The first six based
on the available funding were selected by council and these
are the first six.
And if you look at them, there are pretty much locations
that are currently really congested, and I'll pull up a map
and go over each of them a little bit detailed so you
understand what the improvements are.
So the first one is loop 288 and Colorado.
I mean, everyone knows how bad it is.
So if you look at, actually the aerial supports the finding
so this is a small project, it's not a huge project that is
going to widen any of these streets, but this project is
going to at least begin to address some of the issues and
if you look at this
this is what was included in the project. What we were
planning to do is add another left turn lane, remove the
median, make two left turn lanes all the way extend up to
this point.
So everyone that's stacked up here and way back sometimes
all the way to the bus stop, those can actually get into
these two lanes and out of the through traffic.
So that that was the point. With that there were some
improvements with the signal also that will be made so that
people can actually make the dual left turns.
There are some issues with grading and drainage and we'll
work with that but that is current.
That is the improvement.
Big picture we may talk to the mall back in the day mall
did not like taking this access out. So we'll we'll see if
that's an option when we're through the engineering phase.
If we take out this access it'll really clear many issues
here especially people trying to make this left while this
is backed up and you only have one lane that cars are z
ipping by.
It's a safety issue right there so you can't actually look
past the first car while these people are trying to make
the green light at 30 35 miles an hour.
So, we haven't really contacted them all.
So, before I go through all each of these projects I'll
talk about the schedule and how we're going to move forward
quickly with these with these projects.
The second one is the country club Hickory Road and that
that intersection has similar issues, especially when you
come up on to country club.
This particular approach is a single lane and a lot of
times you find yourself stuck if you if you ever take this
there's one person that wants to turn left and there are a
bunch of folks about 78 cars I want to turn right and they
are stuck behind this one left turn car.
So, what essentially this project is going to look at is
widening this approach to add a right turn lane and that
right turn most likely would extend about 200 feet.
That would allow any left turners say about 10 cars that
want to turn left that stack up in that lane while these
right turners can sneak around and make those right turns.
So, that would definitely add capacity long term
improvement for this location would be signalizing it but
that needs to work with text out a lot and get their plans
in line for 1830.
The next one is US 77 Dallas Drive.
That's an interesting intersection.
It already looks like a big intersection that's completely
blown up.
But it has some issues with wide turning angles here, car
sweeping by faster.
These two right turn lane movements are really fast.
We want to close them in line with the capacity that way
they work better.
Most importantly, this is the left turn that we're focusing
on.
There are some grading and drainage issues here.
If you want to add a second left turn lane so you'll have
dual left turn that way anyone traveling in a true lane
does not have to back up or wait behind the left turn.
I mean you see it every day.
This queue kind of backs into the true lane and the traffic
barely moves.
So that's another short term improvement that was included.
Next one is--
Can I ask a question on that?
Sure.
That would just become like a 90 degree turn as opposed to
the swoop.
Is that right?
Yes, this will be a tighter turn.
Okay.
And what may happen, and depending on the volume, our
analysis will include the volume, but what may happen is
this extra space that's being used for this making it
tighter will go towards these merge lane kind of deal.
So they will still be open to make the turn and then they
can slowly merge into the true traffic.
So that's a slower merge as opposed to you coming in at 25
miles or 30 miles an hour.
The next one is Bell and McKinney.
Everyone knows how bad that intersection is.
It does not have any left turn lanes and it's tough given
the given the buildings on the side, especially this twice
as nice and some of these gas station buildings.
There is no room to widen.
But what we were able to do is work with Tim Beatty to get
a sliver of his parking area and put a right turn lane
there.
So that's working out with them getting some of the eas
ements here that they want for this particular facility that
they're working on.
At the same time, we get this piece of property to make
that right turn.
It will help because a lot of times you will see people
that want to make a right turn can slip into this lane
instead of waiting for the true traffic.
So can I ask a question on this one?
This is what I'm interested in.
So I think a big issue here is this as of now, and I don't
know thinking towards the future, we don't know what
developments are going to come over, but we know this is
between TW and the Dart station.
This is so to me, this is just part of the closest part of
the urban core. So I have two questions.
One, what is a right turn lane do in your opinion to walk
ability when this intersection is already not great for
pedestrian safety?
And is there anything we could do along with this in
association with this to help walkability here?
Yes. What has happened is we've worked with Tim and this
particular area.
I think this is all nicely graded at this point.
But this particular area, there's a path.
And I think in the past, our bike path coordinator, Julie,
had worked with them to put a multi-use path trail from
here through this public property, private property.
And then put in, there's also a sidewalk here to connect
this particular station area to the core through here.
The new segment or new piece that we're working with is
along with getting this right turn piece, we are giving
them an easement along this section.
And we're asking them not only improve section in front of
this particular building that they're upgrading, but also
put in a sidewalk in front of these parking spaces.
So what they're going to do is create a clear connection of
sidewalk path in this particular area to get to this corner
.
Now, once you get to that corner, there's issues with the
sidewalk to walk along this building.
I mean, if you look at this, this is not even close to
being ADA compliant.
So all of this, within the same project, within this right
turn, we are planning on relocating.
We worked with DME to relocate that light onto the building
.
So it's like a cooperative agreement between Tim Beatty and
us to get those, sorry about that, to get the light poles
removed.
These light poles can be removed.
The other light poles can be removed.
So we're going to have to get the light poles removed.
Yeah, with Texas, whether it's kind of tough to upkeep all
the pavement marking, it's -- yeah, they have a program
that they revisit pavement markings every -- I think every
five years they come back and try and maintain that.
But it's been a challenge with the resources.
But due to the noted, we can get this painted.
I mean, I'll have someone look into this right now.
And two other small things real quick.
One is have we considered doing the advanced walk signal
where the pedestrian gets the head start on traffic?
I don't know.
I've seen that posed in some areas.
And then I guess the other thing is just do -- I'm just
throwing out the question.
I think we only have about a one-mile radius, maybe if you
extend over to campus two miles, where I really think we
should think about prioritizing pedestrians, the whole city
.
Right.
I just wonder what is another turn lane?
How much traffic does it alleviate and how much does it
just create more space for cars in the middle lanes to then
zoom by?
Because I just will -- just as an anecdotal example, I
remember coming off the Dart station in this area with my
nieces who came in on the train.
And we all felt terrified that if one of them left us for
one second, they were going to get destroyed by a car.
And this is in the core of Denton.
And so I just question, should we be adding more driving
lanes in an area that's really already been built so much
for cars and start considering, is there's just this one
square mile where we could start thinking about bike lanes,
sidewalks, and prioritizing those things?
I know it's a tough sell in Texas, but I'm just throwing it
out there.
Yeah.
No.
We are looking at all angles.
The way we look at it is there are two types of facilities
as far as transportation.
There are facilities that are safe for all modes, and there
are facilities just meant for moving cars.
And I think right now, Bell, especially this particular
corridor, is kind of in the influx where it is a major
corridor that cuts through and has a lot of traffic, a lot
of vehicles getting in and out of TW, even our downtown
area.
But what is the primary classification as far as what is
the primary use of this particular facility?
That needs to be nailed down.
If we're going to address each and every type of mode of
transportation, there are some corridors that are really
not meant to have pedestrians or bicycles on it.
Yes, they can cross, they can become a facility that
crosses it.
But if you classify and start looking at certain areas that
way, it makes more sense just because if we make all of
them pedestrian friendly and bike friendly, cars just would
not move within the entire core of Denton.
And that becomes an issue too.
That would be a good motivator for them to take different
routes.
Well, I agree, except I'm just, is Bell not one of those
ones we should reconsider?
Because it's between the Dart station, the Square, and TW.
It's one of the most common areas that has the most
potential to increase bike and walking.
And so, again, I'm good on giving up a lot of areas of Dent
on to cars completely, but it just seems like that's one,
even though it has a lot of traffic, where it may be worth
reconsidering.
I think cross connectors like Sycamore will putting a trail
or even this way on Hickory and McKinney.
Cross connectors makes a little bit more sense.
On Bell itself, it's a tough sell.
It has too much traffic, way too much traffic.
And I think most of the people, if you look at the entire
stretch of Bell, the people affected will be people that
live in the northern section, north of TW, trying to
commute and get to 35.
And that would be a tough sell for them, too.
Finding other connections and routes.
But if they're trying to get to 35 and they're north of TW,
would there not be some, a little bit more of a catalyst to
go out to the loop?
And then loop becomes an issue down here.
So which is the worst of the two evils?
It just gets to that.
You have to play a balancing act.
I am one of those people that avoid going.
Like I live up in the Northeastern Park and I almost never
go down by the mall.
If we need to go south, we go out through 380 or most of
the time we take Bell.
Is there any room to move or to eat into the other side of
the street?
Just the other side.
I don't know how to ask this. Or by the gas station because
there's those parking spots and it's just a bunch of cement
.
And whenever I run over there, I feel safest because I can
scoot way in on that sidewalk.
It's private property at this point, so it would be an
issue.
We'll have to, eminent domain by, we have to have a good
justification.
We could find one, I'm sure.
That's just as scary once you move about a block south,
like right there at Bell and Hickory.
Yeah, that's bad.
I used to walk there every day and it's horrifying.
These cars blow right by you.
Okay, there are a couple more locations.
Carol at Sherman is one of them.
This is where most of the people, almost literally traffic
wise, Carol ends here and merges into Sherman,
which then leaves town 426, I believe, 423.
So this intersection has major turning radius issues.
This corner is not enough for a vehicle to make this turn.
Even with the two lanes, there's a dual right turn if you
look at that signal.
There are two right turn lanes and vehicles that are trying
to make the right at the same time,
they're so close or if you look at this curve, they almost
go over it all the time.
So.
What's happening right there?
Just a bunch of, like they're just scattered in a little
parking lot.
All the little parking bumpers.
Oh these, oh yeah.
Is that big to like deter?
No idea.
They probably washed away.
I have no idea.
But this corner will be updated so that you can better turn
, making it safer.
At times there are trucks that are lined up here to make
into this back area of Kroger and all these businesses
and you have one or two trucks here, this thing backs into
this particular driveway.
And it starts creating back up in this area.
If those trucks are shifted to this, making by making a
left turn here,
if they're shifted and these two can go through, it will
help a lot for these folks to clear off and get out.
So that would relieve congestion between University and
Sherman along Carol Northbound.
So that's another little improvement.
It's not, it won't cost that much.
It's just eliminating the island, but it's going to help
alleviate some of the congestion.
And then the last but not the least is Old Road at the
University.
There are no left turn lanes today in the north and south
direction here.
There is a right turn lane.
If you see this little, this is the right turn lane and
this is a through left.
Same thing, there's a through left and a wider shoulder so
that people can easily make a right.
So there are no left turn lanes in both of these approaches
.
And part of the reason that these left turn lanes cannot be
protected is the left turn lane is not there.
So we're starting the first step.
We'll look into what needs, what do we need as far as
signalizing it later on as for us to protect it.
But that's the last improvement.
These were taken to council.
They've approved the monies.
And we're moving forward.
The timeline for this is we're planning on getting the
design done by end of April
and then bidding them out to different contractors to get
them constructed.
The bidding process probably take about three months.
So the construction should be started in fall.
Most likely by October every single project would be under
construction.
We're planning on wrapping them up by end of the year.
So that's the fast pace, fast track that we've been ordered
.
So any questions?
I think we had some discussion.
So just would there be more updates or is --
We can come back with more updates once we probably get to
construction maybe or even before that.
Just let us know we can bring back updates.
I think they all look great and make sense.
I just -- the Bell one is the only one that I'd just like
to keep thinking about.
I don't know.
I just -- I can't think -- get over like if that's actually
going to be --
the DART's ever going to actually be a meaningful form of
transportation.
We have to some point prioritize getting people who would
use the DART there.
And that's just my thought.
I don't know what's possible, but I'd love to explore other
options for Bell.
And if there is anywhere else that could take those cars if
people felt pushed from them
because it became more pedestrian friendly.
Good point.
Okay.
With no more discussion, we'll move on to 1D, TSC 18-010,
which is to receive a report
and hold a discussion regarding tax increment financing
reinvestment zone projects.
So what are you saying, Daniel?
We heard and we're going to come back with a lot of
pedestrian projects.
How about that?
Woo-hoo.
So it's in the downtown area, and this is funded by the TIR
Z,
tax increment financing reinvestment zone.
And essentially what this is, it's looking beyond the
actual square.
These are pedestrian facilities, including lighting.
This is one of the good items that was introduced, is
lighting.
A lot of times you have a pedestrian path, but the lighting
is so bad,
no one wants to really go in the back alley.
So they were thinking of both elements in here.
And there was a little presentation.
I don't want to go through the details on the AIS,
but there was a little presentation that went to council.
And I will bring it up right now.
So this is the presentation that council looked at.
I mean, some of the numbers were changed, as to dollar
amounts and figures.
They've changed slightly, but this gives you an idea of the
overview of where these...
So this is the downtown TIF area.
This is the square right here.
Anything on the outside of the square, this is Elm, Locust,
and then we're talking about Oak and Hickory.
The projects along Oak and Hickory are primarily lighting
projects.
So let's go with the first one.
This is North Locust.
We're looking at primarily between Oak and McKinney, the
sidewalks on both sides.
There's some major parking.
There's a parking area, but it's completely damaged.
It's a channel for water to go into the drainage inlet
there, so it's completely destroyed.
That will be replaced, and the sidewalk along with these
red dots
are where the lighting poles will be for pedestrians.
So this is the first project, Project A.
Then you go to the second, which is North Elm.
And this is a little bit longer project.
It starts from Oak.
It goes to McKinney and then extends from McKinney all the
way to Parkway.
And the sidewalks will include ADA ramps at the
intersection.
It will include any ADA components at each of these drive
ways,
anything that has to do with access.
It will be ADA compliant.
All the new sidewalks will.
And then they will be adding a bunch of lighting on either
side of the street.
So these segments are going to start looking nicer and much
more accessible
and much more pedestrian-friendly.
The remaining two segments are just adding lighting.
You have sidewalks on each of these sections.
It's Oak.
Some pieces might be missing, but Oak from Carroll to Elm.
We're adding lighting so that it gets lighted up much more
appealing,
even for bicyclists at that point.
The other one was Hickory.
And the same thing, there's a bicycle lane,
so it will be more appealing to bicyclists coming in this
way,
as well as pedestrians that need to walk.
These are the projects that were approved.
And the schedule for these projects is similar to the
previous item.
It is fast-tracked.
It is supposed to get designed by April
and hopefully wrap up construction by the end of this
fiscal year
or most likely end of the year.
Any questions?
What kind of lighting is it?
Is it standard poles we've had in other places?
These will most likely be the ones that are down Oak,
all the decorative lighting, pedestrian poles,
the decorative lighting that council approved for.
I think it's already installed.
They are going to also change lighting for the new parking
lot around it.
It will be the same design, same type of pole.
So the lighting is coming out of the tip?
Correct.
So the lights of Oak and Hickory are paid for by a
foundation,
I believe, a historic foundation.
Or at least they're raising money for that.
So is that...
That might be west of Carroll.
This is between Carroll and Elk.
But is it going to match that?
It's going to match that.
I think currently what is on Oak is same as what is all
around the square area.
So it's a similar design.
What street did you say they're raising money for?
Well, you'll notice on Oak west of Carroll there's a
historic looking building.
And I think they're going to be putting some on Hickory
pretty soon.
Yeah, and that's...
After their debit is structured.
Yeah, and actually those are grants.
That's going to be Hunts fundraising.
Those are the ones, yeah.
That's the type of pole that would be put in.
Yeah, it's much...the lights are so much closer to
pedestrians and cyclists.
Yeah, I think this is pedestrian.
This is not the typical arm that's over for the cars that
pass by.
Yes, this is pedestrian.
Yeah, and that's the most needed on Hickory.
I think I've said, but you can't even...it's so dark at
night.
It's unsafe, but you can't even use the bike lane.
It's so dark you can't see in front of you.
Well, they're waiting until they finish the paving project.
For Hickory?
For Hickory.
Yes.
Yeah.
All right, any more questions?
I have a question just about the clarification of this
commission's role on things like that.
So we've got the other report just to update if things have
been approved in this.
Are you just kind of informing us as a courtesy?
Like it's already been...how does that work?
Yeah, so what happened is the way these projects were
generated came through direct council requests to staff to
look into and bring it back to them.
If this came from some request and there was a new project
form from a resident or some other HOAs, organizations,
then it would go to traffic safety first and then to
council.
These were directly requested by council, so they went
directly back to council. That's what happened.
But I wanted to let you guys know that this is what's
coming and this is what's happening.
And we are moving forward on good projects.
It's just that...yeah, we didn't have any action item today
, sorry.
No, that's fine.
Every once in a while we do.
Can I ask one question on that?
Yeah.
So one thing I've also...I repeat myself a lot in here, so
at least I'm consistent.
We've talked about being able to find approved projects as
a way so that the council, you know, and we understand what
's already being done, so I'm not coming in like repeating
myself on a project that's upcoming.
What's the best place to find all of those previously
approved projects?
Good question.
These things have changed a lot in the last year, so these
are really...these came out in the last two to three months
.
It has not been that long that these projects were
conceived.
We were asked to look into quick turnaround projects and
come back.
Typically, there's a list of CIP projects, so they're long-
term, bigger, widening projects that are always being
considered.
We look at what's next, what's needed, and we go through a
whole process, and then most likely they go through the
bond committee to get them on the bond, and then we go for
bond funds to fund them.
So that's typically the project.
That's the process for all of these projects.
But there are sometimes these smaller projects.
There's also similar sidewalk program that we have, and
there are lists of sidewalk projects that we've prioritized
.
We created a ranking system.
Any new concern or any new request that comes in, "Hey,
sidewalk in front of my door is not there.
I need this gap closure," that's added to the list and
ranked.
Depending on how it ranks, it slowly gets funded.
In the previous bond election, we had $2 million.
We're working on spending all of that, getting some of
these bigger sidewalk projects done.
I can show you that there's some discussion in the matrix
that I can pull up the sidewalk spreadsheet, but let me
bring it up now.
That's what I'm trying to figure out.
If I go to the City of Denton site, could I find it if I
was a citizen or if I was on this committee, would we be
able to find it?
We are working towards making it more transparent. This
list at some point will be available on the website.
These are all the ranked projects.
A lot of them have been -- we're working on completing
either our design.
Let me see.
This is where you can actually tell.
These are the ones that were completed.
When they were completed, it tells you March 2017, May,
September. These are the projects that were sidewalks that
we've completed.
Design, construction.
Then we move to -- these are currently under construction.
Now, if you look at one, it's on Oakland across the street
that is currently ill-started construction in the next
couple weeks.
The rest of them have been completed. Congress, Southside
of McKinney, Almond Cedar, Mulberry has been completed.
I saw that one done.
We have a list and we're working towards it.
The next ones will be some of these other bond funded.
We have a bunch that are ready for design.
These are ready for design.
These will go next.
If you look at the amount, they look smaller amounts, but
when you combine them, it totally adds up to $2 million.
We are in the process and this is what we're tracking.
Yes, at some point, it will be on the website.
I think what would help is if I could sit down and say,
okay, these are the problem areas.
These are being addressed already, but these ones are made.
That way we could bring that up.
Can we get e-mail updates on projects like this?
Could that be something that could be e-mailed to us?
Typically, if the project -- I think this information is
sent out through the public information office.
If you want to get e-mails of when this is completed, I
think council is already requesting status on these
projects that are currently under --
so they typically get updates in the Friday reports.
They also have street update in there and they have other C
IP projects which include sidewalks.
If you're looking for updates, you might find a lot of them
on the Friday report.
This was part of my -- I was going to answer the question
next item.
Any other questions?
Any other questions on this item?
All right. Thank you.
We'll move on to 1E TSC 18-011 which is to receive a report
, hold a discussion regarding a presentation on Open Meet
ings Act.
I apologize.
I'm not -- probably one of the few millennials that's not
very tech savvy.
I was out of town trying to send my PowerPoint and just
having the worst technical difficulties.
I was able to save it on PDF so we're going to work off of
PDF.
This is actually a -- I'm sorry.
My name is Victor Florida.
I'm one of the deputy city attorneys for the city of Denton
.
I came here from a small city in south Texas and there I
did a lot of work on open meetings, open records,
and I've actually presented on this topic to Texas
attorneys across the state.
And so I was -- Trey asked me if I could share some of what
I know with you guys and just maybe answer some questions
you guys might have.
Trey expressed to me that there was a question about social
media and how that interacts with the Open Meetings Act.
And so I'm going to limit my presentation to just a few
slides.
Usually I go through what are my five essentials to
surviving the Texas Open Meetings Act, walking quorum, su
fficiency of detail,
recording of certified agendas, last minute changes, avoid
ability and ratification, a lot of legal speak.
But I think we're just going to tackle the first one, which
is walking quorum, and that's where the use of social media
.
I think has the biggest play in the discussion.
So I don't mean to insult anybody's intelligence here or
your past experiences on different boards,
but scale like one to five, five being really experienced,
one being first-timer on a board,
and then there's also hands who has like a level one maybe
experience level two, anybody like five.
I've done this. I've heard this speech before.
Okay. So maybe a good mix, right?
The biggest concern from the legal perspective that we
always have in advising our clients is -- if you would
think of it as a sliding scale.
And obviously right now when you have a quorum of members
and they're present and you start to discuss business,
the Open Meetings Act requirements are going to be
triggered.
That's the easier one.
But where you get into some difficulty or some ambiguities
or the gray areas in which we work in,
it's when you have after meeting discussions and there's
this concept of kind of like this daisy chain,
or if you want to think about it, you know, the telephone
game you should play in elementary school
and which one person would talk to the person next to them
and at the end of the trail,
it was something completely different than when it started,
right? So it's the telephone game.
There have been cases in actual litigation presented on
when individuals don't intentionally start that telephone
game.
When it just starts off, I had coffee with one of my
council members and we're talking about items that's coming
up
and we didn't intentionally mean for it to kind of grow
into this full discussion.
And with the use of social media, I'll tie social media now
, that's really easy to do as well with not just social
media
like Facebook or Snapchat or Twitter, but just mirror text
messaging.
And I'll give a case, for example, didn't actually form
into litigation,
but it did get some unwanted publicity and attorneys were
involved and whatnot.
And this case was a case where a school district was
considering,
the trustees were considering the appointment of a new
superintendent.
And there are multiple applicants and one trustee text
message the other trustee,
"Hey, I think we should really give this one guy a shot."
Well, then unbeknownst to, let's say, trustee A, trustee B
said, "Hey, I just talked to trustee A."
And trustee A thinks that this guy would be a great
candidate.
So now they're up to three.
Well, then unbeknownst to A and B, trustee number three
said, called his buddy,
"Hey, I just talked to trustee B, who talked to trustee A,
and they think this guy would be a great candidate."
So they have this discussion. There is some clamor in the
community.
"Hey, I think something's fishy out here. I think they're
about to approve this superintendent
without having a public discussion about it."
Sure enough, they come up before the council,
and there's a swift motion to approve this candidate as the
new superintendent.
And then public information requests are submitted for
phone records and text messages and things of that nature.
When it comes down to it, and those cases are reviewed,
there is a mental state that's required, a burden that's
required to be established to find a violation.
Those violations can be criminal, can be civil.
If you violate the Open Meetings Act, there are civil
criminal penalties.
But with those, come, like I said, a mental, an intent
behind it.
And so in that case, the court found that there was not an
intent.
But do we even want to get that close is always a question.
So my guidance to the boards that I've presided over and
give legal counsel to,
and what I explain to these attorneys that I speak to
across the state is,
you always want to caution your board that you can't
control what happens after you have those communications.
And so I'm going to bring it back and tie it into social
media,
is that when you have these interactions on social media
and they're,
whether they're private, like it's a private group or even
a public group,
if there are more than a quorum that are engaged in that
discussion,
then that would be a violation of the Open Meetings Act.
Also, if there's less than a quorum, but then for whatever
reason,
somebody alleges that it was less than a quorum, it was
only maybe a subgroup,
a private group of three board members, and only those
three board members could interact in that dialogue.
Well, there's cases that show that, or at least the prop
onent would be, or opponent would advocate and say,
well, they were trying to circumvent the system by creating
this closed group of just three members to have this
discussion.
And so I guess my guidance to this board is use of social
media on your own, personal accounts.
You're not precluded from talking about day-to-day things,
but especially there should be internal red flags that go
up.
Hey, I think this item might come up at a future meeting.
We've kind of talked about it. It's on our matrix of things
that come up.
Let's just wait and have this discussion in open session.
Or if you truly want to have more efficient means of
discussing matters, because it's not often we can all
gather together,
then if there's a specific subject that you want to tackle
on and create a subcommittee that can meet together,
less than a quorum, meet together and discuss those things,
and then as a subcommittee, bring that report to the
council,
that's also beneficial and would not violate the Open Meet
ings Act.
But aside from that, my caution to you would just be aware,
self-aware of discussing items outside of a public meeting
context
and items that would come up before the board. That's a lot
. I try to keep it down, but I kind of went on.
Did you say a subcommittee just has to be less than a qu
orum?
Yes.
And there would be no meeting posting requirements for that
subcommittee.
You could go have a discussion over coffee at some place,
but make sure you bring that kind of weekly report or
monthly report to the board
and say, hey, we talked, and this is what we discussed.
So would the subcommittee have to be formed during a
meeting and thus show up at the minutes?
Yes. I'd recommend that, yes.
I wonder if that would be, because I think part of this
discussion came around having time besides in the meeting
to be more educated about some of these questions,
just because it's difficult to get everything out of the
time.
Sure.
I wonder if that would be for people interested, if it was
less than a quorum, if that could then take the form of a
subcommittee of people who want to learn about what already
exists in the city or something like that.
I'd be interested.
Were there any questions specific to social media?
I guess I just gave a holistic approach and kind of applied
that to social media, but any social media specific
questions about interactions with open meetings?
I have one question.
I think one specific thing came up in a neighborhood group
for the neighborhood I live in, and someone was asking
about the intersection of Old North and University.
Something like that is pretty innocuous, but I was about to
reply to it and then I got busy and then I noticed that the
council member for that area had been, she was interested
in that and she posted about it, or she replied to it.
Does that, I mean, how does that get, like if we were both
to be talking about this project in one thread, I mean,
that seems like that would get a little hairy.
It could, and so it's, I would just use your best judgment
in those cases, but I will make a distinction.
It's a quorum of whatever board you serve on.
So if you and the council member were both on this thread,
and even if the quorum was two, you know, there's three
members, it would be a quorum of those of that board.
So just because you're both officials or serving some kind
of capacity for the city, it wouldn't trigger, that in
itself wouldn't trigger a quorum.
Just like in any context, if you're invited to a town hall
meeting in person to go out and engage the public about
things that you review here at this board, you're likewise
able to engage on social media threads, right, about doing
stuff like that.
But the trick is not to either intentionally or unintention
ally put yourself in the position where now there are three
or four of you, or four of you on this thread, and just
kind of be careful of that.
So it's like participation and considered posting, for
example.
So it's a weird, now I'm just intrigued by the legal, like
so there's, because there's these, for example, there's
these really big groups in Denton where people discuss
public issues.
And so if one happened to be one related to the safety
commission, a traffic safety commission, would it, what
constitutes participation in a case like that?
Is it seeing a post? Is it, I mean, if you're a member of
the thread, does that count, of the group, does that count,
even if you didn't look at it?
Or do you have to actually interact with it?
So I'll give you a more traditional example and then we can
apply it to social media, just to kind of get where I'm
coming from.
But let's just say, for example, there is a panel, a city
panel, or a town hall event, and they have city officials
at the,
participating in the panel, and another board wants to go
and attend this kind of public panel in person, and they go
.
And let's say a quorum of them go, and here I'll use, like,
let's say city council and public utilities board.
Members of the city council are on a public panel and the
public utility board goes and attends the meeting, a quorum
of them go and attend the meeting.
They haven't posted the meeting, but they go.
That would, and there are items that are being discussed by
the council members that will impact or be presented before
PUB,
it would be my recommendation, my opinion, that PUB would
be conducting a meeting, or at least the meeting's act
requirements would have been triggered in that sense.
Now to apply to social media, even if they hadn't discussed
anything, right?
Obviously, for sure, even one of them made a point or asked
a question to the council members, that would be even more
so triggering of meeting's requirements.
Applying to social media, social media's entirely different
.
And there haven't been, and I can say that with confidence
because there have been cases like that.
There have not been many cases on dealing with social media
and just the presence of you being on a group.
But what it has been, there are cases and claims brought,
are when those members begin to engage.
So, and maybe not, maybe if four of the members here were
on a group and just observed, then it would be my
impression, my legal opinion that no, the Open Meetings Act
is not triggered.
But the minute that one of you responds and all four of you
are watching or following, then it would be my legal
opinion that that would trigger Open Meetings.
Oh, tricky.
Because the same context and you can see how the analogy
pairs up with if you were just in public, the minute one
stands up, it just, the state's going to say that just
doesn't play right.
That's interesting.
It is tricky because I don't know how you actually identify
how people are viewing, whether they're viewing, because
you, I'm in lots of groups where I don't see any of the
posts because I never check them or I don't go to them or
anything.
Right, that's probably way off. I think we all understand
the intention of the law, which is important, but it's.
But if there are more questions like that, that was an
interesting question. I kind of enjoyed going through it.
Yeah, but very definitely, like, there is a post on one of
those Denton forums and then I see Dan responding.
Then I see Karen responding, then like it's time to lay low
.
Right?
Right, that'd be my recommendation, right?
And here it is.
There's always risk and liabilities. That's what we measure
.
We identify risks and then there may be some positive that
comes out of any situation and then there are risks or li
abilities that come out of it.
It's the, does the benefit substantiate the risk of
liability? So in that case, the, does the benefit of you
commenting on that thread validate the liability that
somebody might come and file a claim, pay its violation
openings, when you might have an opportunity to address
that here in a community meeting or even mention you could
organize a town hall,
a wave in public or just something of that nature. It's
just identifying the risk and weighing them against the li
abilities benefits.
That was my question is, is there just a best practice to
encourage people to like submit comments via these open
meetings that we have like this one or a city council or.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Of course. I mean, not to squash
people expressing themselves on online, but there's a
difference between just complaining in a forum and actually
coming to a meeting and hoping that something's going to
change.
So is there a way to just kind of encourage people like
come to this meeting or.
Yes, I mean, it makes everybody's job easier. It makes it a
lot more transparent and accountable for all parties and
they get their issues answered here just as well, if not
maybe better than in one of those internet mediums.
So definitely.
Anything else.
We just should direct all our questions to you to trade to
trade.
All right. Thank you.
And next we have item one FTSC 80 dash one zero one two
staff reports which include the matrix.
All right. First few items are just there they're happening
. It's just that we don't necessarily have an immediate
timeline we have on some of these.
Number two, number three number four these are all things
that are lined up to happen the small area plan is underway
there is what's going to happen with the enforcement work
currently enforcing the enforcement is high in the UNT area
.
And then all these other items but I wouldn't like like to
start at number eight and talk about the dumpsters on Hick
ory Street.
We did reach out to solid waste and found out that the dump
sters on Hickory right.
I don't know the address exact address but it's in the
middle between just west of Carol. There are a couple dump
sters right in the middle those have been moved according to
solid waste and they've moved it from the sidewalk.
The one near on the fry street side. They've worked out a
way to share the dumpster so it's kind of a better
situation so solid waste is currently working on getting
rid of all of this.
So the dumpsters on Hickory near Carol were they're
actually looking at a valet service or something different
kind of the post putting dumpster. So yes I think there are
steps in the right direction to address.
So valet service how does that look and our other
apartments could would other apartments be good candidates
for this. That's a good question I'll get back to you with
information from solid it's I'm the middle guy but yeah I
'll get back to you.
What is a trash valet service.
These are smaller containers and it's more frequent. So
that's why it's called and it's a particular time. So they
're thinking of certain options even in the square.
I'm sorry, the big Benzie roll out to the street, something
similar, but they're thinking of similar options for the
square in order to get rid of the dumpster in the backside.
Thinking of valet services, but it's all in the big picture
planning not yet is covering the dumpsters you know having
like something in front of them is that the purview of the
individual businesses, or is that is there a city on that's
a planning requirement
that they have to be covered any new dumpster enclosure has
to have an enclosure new ones do though but the new there's
a lot that have been grandfathered and probably correct and
we're trying to come up with a solution.
Yeah, and there's just, you know, there's some places where
you don't notice them at all, but like those ones that just
face you and tease campus.
After Thursday nights they're just covered with trash it
just makes the whole can't that party campus feel trashy.
Thank you. That's good news.
All right, met Park we talked about the speed cushions I'm
jumping to number 10 McKinney sidewalk and that was part of
the list that was coming up.
McKinney sidewalk from Oakland to Austin something that you
brought up and that is on the list of projects to be
designed so it will go out to design.
We're currently working on an RFQ engineering wide, which
is going to a work session item.
This month, and then later this month or early next with
will be selecting firms for design and once we select that
it's like an umbrella contracts that we don't have to waste
time, we going through the process but we can pick and
choose consultants fast so that get the
completed is where it could treat our trees ever in
consideration as like a barrier between the street and the
sidewalks. They are where we have the right of way but a
lot of times we don't we have to work somewhere in the
middle.
Yeah, we definitely work with our forester urban forester
Heywood, a lot. We try and save wherever we can for example
on Bell. We had to go around and go in the backside.
We try and save them as much as we can and it's a good
buffer it's a nice place to walk, especially in summertime.
But yeah we try but there are some, it depends on right of
way restrictions there we definitely had right of way with
city property.
And then last, last but not least the crossing guard, I did
talk to our PD police department and discuss this with the
ISD, they do have a crossing guard at Malone and University
for Newton Riser.
So, that's an elementary school, it was part of. I checked
with both actually I got responses from both of them the IS
D confirmed that yes, the principal confirmed there is a
crossing guard, and they also specify the time I can pull
it out but I have a matrix that shows crossing
guards different location.
And PD confirmed that too. So yes, we do have.
Okay, anybody want to add anything to the matrix.
Whoa.
Okay.
Well I actually do have a question.
Now I have a question about about sidewalks, and I know
there were a couple spots when I when I was on planning and
zoning, where we made the decision that sidewalks needed to
go there.
You know there have been different times when somebody had
asked you know for a variance not to put in a sidewalk. But
, and some of those places still don't have sidewalks and
there's.
You know what I'm talking about.
But also, so is there a way that we can go back and.
Where's is, are, is there, are there bread crumbs to for to
be able to go back to some of these developments that were
supposed to put in sidewalks but then, you know, things
change personnel changes institutional memory leaves, and
the sidewalks are not there.
Is there any easy way to get in and find where they should
be.
And also I know that at Calhoun, and on Eagan Street, there
was supposed to be a sidewalk that went in on the south
side of Eagan, and it goes right by the Calhoun field, and
there is no sidewalk there on either side of the road.
And during some of the DISD reconstruction, you know years
ago, there were there was supposed to be some sidewalk put
in along that stretch along the field, and it hasn't
happened.
But like I said I understand how things.
We lose some of things as we lose personnel and new people
come in, but is are there breadcrumbs to follow. If you
tell me how to follow them I'll follow them.
Once, once it once once it's approved it's approved so what
happened this tip.
All the new current standards require sidewalk no matter
what.
So, that's a good thing.
Previously was not the case it was some of the developers
were able to convince folks to not put in sidewalks.
Once the developer leaves and if there is no HOA, which is
which is what previously used to be there used to be a
single entity that everyone was entitled to.
Now there is most of the new subdivisions previously that
it wasn't the case. So if you don't have one entity that
deals with it is not willing to come forward and do certain
improvement then it becomes a really tough challenging for
every parcel that the city has to approach and get that
thing lined up.
But if you have an HOA for example I'm working with Wheeler
Ridge and their that HOA is proactive they want to put
stuff on their own. Like we put in new striping if the city
agrees if you agree so if we give them the go ahead, they
're willing to pay the money so that that's how forward
thinking HOA can become and work for the community so.
Right. There's been some redevelopment projects over over
the years. And the developer then was supposed to put in
sidewalks and and the only reason I knew about them because
of being on planning and zoning at that time.
And they came in to ask for a variance and the variance was
denied.
There's no sidewalk there.
Good question.
Yes.
Okay.
She can find that.
Okay. So contact Jennifer.
Yep. Okay.
Okay.
All right. Thank you.
Okay, I do have one small matrix I'm sorry gave me too much
time to think on Hickory, there's several spots and I'm
talking about just to the east of Carol.
There's several spots where we have sidewalks, where there
's just curbs and there's no ramps, which obviously and this
is pretty close to the square, is that something simple we
can look at to just adding ramps.
If you if you're on the circuit on the north side of this
of Hickory, like kind of where the little breakfast places
you know I'm talking about, and the sushi places the
science still there.
The right there like there's several spots there's a couple
spots right there where there's curbs and so it'd be inac
cessible to a wheelchair is that something we could look at
it just needs a ramp.
Basically, I don't know if you have to redo things to do
that or if you're able to just.
Yes, we can absolutely look at, and I'll have to look but
there are sometimes funds just for ADA updates.
So, these are things that can be quickly turned around and
the real challenge challenging part is, if we go there and
if we see that the current sidewalk that's connecting and
coming to that particular driveway or any side street is
not in compliance,
and it that triggers and most of the times that's the case
is you look at the sidewalk, it does not have the right
cross slope, and then everything you look at either
direction now you're talking about a big project as opposed
to just putting in those ramps.
So that's that's the dilemma that the city always is in is
if you put something in connecting to it has to be
compliant.
Okay, anything else.
With that, it is 642 and we can adjourn. Thank you
everybody. Thank you.