Jan 10, 2018 Planning and Zoning Commission on 2018-01-10 5:00 PM

Welcome to the City of Denton Planning and Zoning Commission meeting for January 10th, 2018. This will be our work session. This meeting has been duly posted and we do have a quorum present and I will call us to order at 5-0-2. Our first order of business will be to receive clarification of agenda items and so that will move us in our work session down to our consent agenda . And if there are questions, Haley can come and answer those on the consent agenda. The Denton traffic to partners. Okay. Haley, you want to come up to the mic? Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. Just a quick question. On the Google map thing, it looks like there's a gas well there now. So is that on lot 8? Yes, sir. That is on lot 8 and there is an access easement and a pipeline easement coming off of Jim Crystal there. Okay. Is that remaining? They're not removing that? It is to remain. There's an approved gas well site plan for that site and as far as I know it will remain there. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions for Haley on this item? No? Okay. That will then take us to our items for individual consideration and I'll call on Haley for a presentation on P17-10 Creekside on Ryan Road. Yes. So some of you may be familiar with Creekside. It's a large parcel of unannexed property. It was under a non-annexation agreement for several years and when the last of those was about to expire in 2016, they entered into a pre-annexation development agreement with the city. So it subdivided the entire parcel into three tracts of land. This is just one of those tracts. It's tract 1C in the agreement and it is for a single family subdivision that will have 137 residential lots and three common area lots. You can see the plat has multiple pages here but it would be your standard single family at roughly an NR3 density is what we would be looking at here. And we did put this on individual consideration because there is a section in the agreement that requires the gas well on site to be plugged before the final plat is approved so we just wanted to be abundantly clear about that that they will not get a final plat approved for this until such time as the gas well is plugged. Commissioner Beck. And on that note, so those, I guess those are storage tanks that are there now too? They have all been removed at this point. The operator is in the process. Oh, the tanks are already gone? Yes. Yeah, they're in the process of closing the site. I just wanted that for clarification. Thank you. Commissioner Sullivan. Sorry. Sir, my understanding is the last traffic survey was done in 2014. Is that right for this, for Ryan Road? I know there was one done in 2014 for a subdivision further to the west from this property. I'm not sure if there's been anything done in time since then though. Okay. Also, how does the impact fee or whatever it's called now, how is it assessed since on the street side of this subdivision is not nearly as big as the whole subdivision? How is it determined who's going to take care of the street and when is that determined? My understanding is all of that was laid out in the pre- annexation development agreement. There were agreed upon amounts for roadway impact fees and all of the impact fees that would be associated with the development at that time knowing the full scope of all three tracks that were intended to be developed. So all of that has been kind of predetermined at this point . Okay. When is that going to happen though? I mean, is there a deadline by which I think it's $589,000 is going to be spent to widen or to do something with Ryan Road is not specified exactly what's going to happen. And so I'm just curious when is that street improvement supposed to happen? I'm not sure when the improvements will happen. I know the impact fees will be assessed and paid at the time of permitting for the individual building permits. So it will be split over all of these individual lots as they're developed in terms of when it's paid. Because I know Ryan Meadows on the other end, on the west end, there hasn't been anything done to the street that they front on Ryan Road. Yeah. And they've been there for a year or more. Yeah, I'm not aware of any immediate plans for improvements on Ryan Road, but the impact fees will be paid with each permit. Okay. Haley, you may want to give a clarification to Commissioner Sullivan that it's at the city's option, whether the perimeter street paving is done or whether they collect the fees. Yeah. Yeah. In this case, the agreement outlined how much would be paid for each phase of this development for impact fees for road, water and sewer. So Commissioner Smith, thank you, Chair. Clarification on the bottom of the plat there. It says street D just ends and they're in the map. Is that connecting to the neighborhood that's south of that track? What exactly is happening there? Yeah. Let's see which. I can't quite tell. It goes further south, Creek View, whatever. Creek Day. Oh, does it? I'm sorry. Yeah, it does tie into the existing subdivision. I don't see the exact street that you were referencing, but it ties into the existing subdivision. So basically, my question is I just- Street E. I was reading it. I wasn't paying attention. I looked at that. I didn't flip the next page. Does this plat eventually connect the neighborhood from Ryan all the way down to Hickory Creek? Or is there through the neighborhood? Or is the only way for people to get to Hickory Creek going to be go back out to Teasley or go back out to 1830? It would be connected through the neighborhoods. Yeah. That was a question I had from a resident. Another thing that was brought up. Commissioner Sullivan talked about the traffic impact analysis. Can we get any information on that? There was one done in 2014 for this. Can we get a refresher on that during the actual meeting at 630? I could look into that. To my knowledge, there hasn't been one done for this subdiv ision. The one I think from 2014 was for another subdivision along Ryan Road. What say does the city have in requiring the developer to put in acceleration and deceleration lanes coming into the neighborhood itself off of Ryan Road? At this point in time, is there anything we could do? Honestly, I'm not certain on that. Since they did enter into the agreement that specified how much they would contribute towards the roadways, I don't know that there would be any room for that, but we could look into it. I'm just bringing up concerns that was brought to me by a couple of different citizens in the neighborhood that abuts it. The last thing was, within the preliminary plotting process that we're in, what landscaping requirements are there currently? Is it zoned NR2? At this point, it's technically still in the city's ETJ. Their agreement requires that once their final plan is approved, they apply for annexation into the city. Then at that point, it stipulates that they would apply for an NR3 zoning designation for the property. In terms of landscaping, the agreement outlined a very specific landscaping plan for the entire subdivision as well as the other tracts. The primary feature in this portion would be ... Let me get to the right page. All of the trees that exist along the west side of the property, most of them are to remain in place. The same thing on the south side. Okay. Those are the biggest questions I had there. One other thing we brought up, what are the other ... You said this is tract 1C. What are the other tracts within this? Is it going to be one? It's kind of hard to see here. The one immediately adjoining it where all of the flood plain is, is 1B. The agreement specified that that would have up to three single family homes. The majority of the ESA and the floodplain is all to remain intact. Then the other portion is further east from there. That would be a second phase of the Good Samaritan Center. Okay. That works. Thank you. Any other questions for Haley on this item? No? Okay. Thank you, Haley. As far as our public hearings this evening, we'll need to get a ... We'll open item A and the chair would like to get a motion from one of the other commissioners to continue this to the 21st and we'll leave it open. Then the other two items, we're not going to take any action on those since they have been withdrawn. That will take us through the items that are on our agenda. I think Richard has got some other items that are off agenda that he wanted to go over with us here at work session. Just wanted to sort of update everybody what's kind of going to go on the next meeting. That's going to be a pretty hefty agenda, particularly for the work session. We'll have three items specific for work session. Two of those I handed out tonight. These are the new or draft design criteria manual for transportation and drainage. I wanted to get those well in advance rather than just sending them that Friday before so everybody had a chance to take a look at it. They are online as well. We can provide that in an email. They're on the city's website if you wanted to look at them electronically. In the transportation manual you'll see quite a bit of changes from the existing, specifically with it outlines TIA changes to pavement standards right away with. I'll save all of the details for engineering, Todd Estes, director of capital improvements will be here as well as pre-TAM to go over both of these. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, chair. Will this affect the mobility plan in any way? Are we changing streets, directions or anything like that? It'll actually widen some of the residential streets. But not necessarily change the mobility plan. One thing you'll see in here, they're going -- they're starting to go with context sensitive corridors so that will ultimately play into that. So there's sort of some give and take. So if it's on a context sensitive corridor, there are some things that you can do to possibly reduce parking if you put a bike lane. So there's a number of different options sort of outlined in the manual. Also as the only member here that's part of that sub committee dealing with the DDC change, are we going to be holding any more meetings? Yes. Before they actually implement it? Because isn't a new rewrite supposed to be set up for the summer sometime? Even probably sooner than that. We're looking at getting sort of a first initial draft, possibly next month of some of the chapters. And so at that point in time, that subcommittee will then reconvene and start to go over those. And so what we suspect is probably March, April sort of alternating work session and then the following meeting, you probably plan on every work session having a subchapter or at least a section to review to get through that. So I just wanted to kind of preface that as we move forward that. Not to carry it on just real quickly. Are they scheduled to have at least one more public hearing on that before it goes to city council? There'll be a cut on the criteria or the code. The code itself. We'll have a number of public hearings. Okay. Okay. Thanks, Richard. The only other item that we'll get it to you prior to -- I 'll try to get that to you next week again so you have it before the meeting. Deborah Vieras will be here to present changes to subch apter 17 which deals with our environmentally sensitive areas. So there's some changes that she'd work through with her group. So we wanted to bring that to a work session as well. And then we have just to give you an idea, we have three rezoning, a rezoning and an SUP and then two preliminary plaques. So it's going to be, like I said, it'll be a bountiful agenda. What's the expected date for the adoption of the transportation criteria manual and the storm water and when those would go into effect? I think they're -- I know they're pushing to get them done sooner than later. They've opened up a sort of a 30-day window. And so what we talked about was rather than sort of have the meet, you know, sort of let's just do it -- let's open the window and then we can have that public hearing in between and that way if somebody from the public -- I guess if they want to come, they could. So whether or not we want to open something up at the regular meeting, I mean, I guess that's an option that we can do. I don't know if -- again, it's sort of up to -- I'll leave that up to you guys how you want to handle that or just leave it as a work session item . Okay. Commissioner Smith. Off topic of these, just for the public hearings, you probably mentioned the spine here. Do we need to make a motion to continue public hearing A and then B and C since they're for items from withdrawal and we just -- No action. No action. Okay. Just wanted to make sure. Yep. Okay. Is that it? All right. Well, with that, I will call a conclusion to our work session at 517 and we will reconvene in council chambers at 630. Thank you. Good evening and welcome to the City of Denton Planning and Zoning Commission meeting for January 10th, 2018. This meeting's been duly posted and we do have a quorum present and I will call us to order at 630. Our first order of business will be to stand and give the pledge to the U.S. and the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state, under God, one and indivisible. Before we get started this evening on the rest of our agenda, I want to make an announcement for some of you who may be here. We have two items that are on our public hearing items, 4B and 4C, that are the Woodlands Project on McKinney Street. That item has been withdrawn from our meeting this evening. So if you're here for that item or either of those two items, that will not be heard tonight and we do not have a date certain on that, so I'll announce that before we get started on the rest of our meeting. With that announcement, we will now move on to our consent agenda. Chair would entertain a motion on the consent agenda. Commissioner Smith? Motion to approve. Commissioner Beck? Second. Okay. We have a first and a second for approval. Any discussion? Commissioner Sullivan? Not just a... Okay. We have a motion and a second for approval and we will call for a vote on the board. Motion is going to carry 5 to 0. That will take us to our items for individual consideration and I will call on Haley for presentation of item P17-0010. Good evening. This item is a preliminary plat for the Creekside Subdiv ision located on the south side of Ryan Road. It's 137 residential lots and three common area lots. These are being developed in accordance with the terms of a pre-annexation development agreement that was passed in 2016 by the City Council. This is one of three phases for the entire Creekside development. Staff is recommending approval of this plan with the condition that the existing gas well on site be plugged in accordance with the terms of the pre- annexation development agreement and that a final plan not be considered by the Planning and Zoning Commission until such time as the well is plugged. Okay. I can stand for any questions. Questions? Okay. Great. Thank you, Haley. This is an item of individual consideration. I have a number of cards here to speak on this item and I will start with the applicant, Thomas Fletcher. If you'll give your name and address. Good evening, Commissioners. Thomas Fletcher with Kimley-Horn, 5750 Genesis Court, Fr isco, Texas, 75034. Appreciate y'all's consideration to this item tonight. I realize there's a lot of citizens of Thistle Hill and maybe some of the surrounding neighborhoods that are in attendance tonight that have some questions and concerns. What I'd like to do is kind of give an overview of the project and hopefully maybe that will shed some light or maybe answer some of the questions that are had. If we can show the preliminary plat. The preliminary plat, the portion that you're seeing on the screen here, this is the northern portion of the track. When we went through the PAD process, the PADA process with the city, one of the things we looked at is we wanted to do a development that really took advantage of the existing natural features of the track. There's a lot of beautiful mature trees. When we did the layout and the design and we were working with staff, we tried to keep the residential lots kind of towards the center portion of the track and create and keep the buffers that are on the perimeter. As you notice, there is a residential street running north south. We do not have lots that are backing to Thistle Hill. We have a landscape buffer there of the existing trees. It's approximately 120 feet wide on the north portion. As you go further south, I think it trims down to about 80 feet. Another thing when we were looking at this and we were doing the layout, early on we had looked at the Thistle Hill development. When Thistle Hill was developed, Thistle Ridge actually had a right of way stub out to this track. When the development occurred, they did not build the road way stub in the plans that said future right of way for future extension to connect to the existing development. As we worked with staff and we talked about the development and concerns that Thistle Hill might have with this connection to their development and bringing additional traffic into their development, we looked at how do we meet the fire department or the fire code requirement of two access points in the distance between those access points. This particular track has an 80 foot wide piece that runs south to Creekdale Drive. For our two points of access, we have access to Creekdale and then we have access to Ryan Road. You will have some traffic split that will go between the two. Not all the traffic is going to be let out from the subdiv ision onto Ryan Road. Also as part of the agreement, because of the impact, because of what we were asking of the city, we looked at Ryan Road. We talked about improvements to Ryan Road or our portion of contribution to the improvements or future improvements of Ryan Road. Because there are concerns within the city about piece mill ing the roadway and doing these little scab on pieces adjacent to development, the decision was made with the city or by the city that the escrow of funds to assist with the future construction of Ryan Road was in the best interest of the city. The PADA stipulates that $589,000 will be donated by this development for perimeter roadway improvements to Ryan Road. That comes out to $4,300 per lot, which is more than twice what the roadway impact fee per lot is within the city's current ordinance. Along the south where we abut to Ryan Ranch, we've got a 70 foot buffer along there. If you see this, this is the south portion of the track. I know it's not, it's a little bit hard to see on the screen, but you've got the north-south road that curves over and goes through the piece. I'd call it a flag lot, but there's 80 foot wide there. That's going to have a residential street, which will be 27 feet back to back. There will be a sidewalk connecting the development down to Creekdale Drive. There's a 70 foot buffer between the proposed development and Ryan Ranch. The majority of the mature trees within all of these open spaces are to be preserved. We've got trails throughout the development. We're taking advantage of the nice open spaces and putting in a meandering trail through the trees. To the east of the project, adjacent to the floodplain in the actual creek, we're putting in an amenity center with a children's playground and a swimming pool. In the development, like as Haley had mentioned, the development is contingent upon the well being cap. There's an existing gas well on the site. As part of this development, that gas well is to be capped. That process has already begun. All the surface equipment has been removed. The surface has been cleaned up. Now we're waiting for the plugging company. They're very busy at this time of the year, but we're on their schedule and we're waiting for the plugging company to come up and cap the well. That should occur within the next few weeks. Anyway, that's kind of an overview. I tried to hit on transportation, the open space, the gas well. I'll be happy to answer any questions and I'd be glad to come up afterwards if there's questions that are generated from the residents that I could potentially answer. Do you have a question? Commissioner Smith. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you, Chair. Can you give me a rough estimate of property values for the development that's going in? Let me defer to the developer. Sure. Let him come up and introduce himself. Stay up here. I got another question for you. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah, it's one of the property values. Mr. Chairman, members of the Planning and Zoning Commission , I'm John Dickerson, 8333 Douglas, Suite 1300, Dallas, Texas. I'm the president of Dickerson Development and we are very excited to be your applicant. I actually own the property. We've closed on the property in November, so we're the owners of this 47-acre tract. We're very, very excited to be bringing this community into your city. We have two home builders lined up for this community and the price range of the homes that they've told us are $350,000 to $450,000. Great. The two different home builders that are coming in, one of the questions that was raised by a citizen and brought to me was the worry of a cookie cutter facade being put up. Anything you could speak to that at all publicly? Certainly. The PADA, which was negotiated before we took over this property, addressed a lot of the issues of site plans and setbacks to avoid the cookie cutter look that occurs in a lot of communities throughout the Metroplex. Namely, we stagger front yard setbacks. There's basically three categories, A, B, and C, to stagger so that there's not just a linear line of front yard setback. Then in our homeowners association deed restrictions, we've got restrictions on front elevations, building materials, masonry, brick, and protections in there to make sure that it doesn't look like there's not so many homes of the same type, that there 's different product. Did you guys drive through Thistle Hills at all to take ideas about how to create continuity within the area, keep the façades at least looking the same is the wrong word to use, but something similar to what's already around it? I think Thistle Hill is the standard or the quality of the quality that we envision happening on this property. Great. Absolutely. Thanks, sir. Yes. Thank you, sir. Did you guys ever have a neighborhood meeting with residents of Thistle Hill to discuss this? No, we did not. All the meetings were with city staff and the city officials. Sure. It's usually brought up during zoning issues, not usually during our preliminary platting, but as you can probably see, this is a little bit more charged than our preliminary platting, so stop at that. Right. I think that was because the tract is currently located in the ETJ. As part of the PADA, once the final plat is approved, we have to submit for annexation within 10 days. Thanks. More questions? Okay. Another question. Commissioner Sullivan. Thanks, Chair. I know that you all have paid for the street impact fees or to be paid up front. In fact, all three phases combined are going to be $896,700 . And my question is, since the traffic survey has not been done, how do you know what you're paying for? So when we met with the city, the city was in the process of doing their roadway impact fee, and what the city's consultant had determined was they had gone through and done a study of impacts on what a single family lot impacts within a certain area of Denton. What does that impact have on the roadway infrastructure in the system? And at the time, I think at one point, the city was looking at bringing forward a $3,000 per lot impact fee. And then as it went through the process, it was settled out on a $2,000 per lot impact fee. But what the study shows is that the actual impact is a little bit more significant than that. But if you make your roadway impact fee too high, then it could drive developers away. Because this project is located in the ETJ, and we were asking for a pre-annexation development agreement, that's why we came in at a roadway impact fee that is more in line with or appropriate to the impact of our development. So that figure was determined by the city and presented to us as part of the pre-annexation development agreement. So the study that was done by the city's consultant is what was utilized to help determine that appropriate fee amount. Well, I guess what I'm asking is, is that going to pay just to re-asphalt Ryan Road? Is it going to expand it? No, what it does is that covers, like if we were to go out and do the perimeter roadway improvements, that fee is in line with the cost of that section of roadway. So because if you go out and you drive, there are several areas adjacent to the Walmart, Forest Hill, Teasley Trails where with the development the road was actually constructed and you get some incontinuity. So the city said, well, if we start assessing these impact fees versus having the developer themselves build this small section or their half of the roadway, then once we accumulate a certain amount of dollars, we can start the process of going out and doing schematic design, determination of road section, determination of right of way acquisition. We can go through and do our flood study. So they can start using, so once these dollars are paid and put into the account, the city can start the process of planning for the improvements of this road. That planning will help them determine the overall, do an estimation of the overall cost and then they can use that to start looking for sources to fund. Because you have, I mean, if you look at the area, I think about 60% of the frontage adjacent to Ryan Road is already developed. So you don't have as much development that's going to come in and contribute. So the city has to look at where are, what is the cost and then how can we fund the improvements to the overall roadway. - You trust it more than I do. But y'all are going to be adding about what, 137 homes? Is that right? - Correct. - 137 homes. My concern is that Thistle Hill, phase one and two has about 150 homes. And a couple of years ago, there was a traffic survey done on Andrew because residents were concerned about the speeding of cars because it's pretty straight shot from the back of Thistle Hill to Ryan Road. And during the five day period, they had 2,968 cars that went southbound from Ryan Road onto Andrew. Another 3,173 cars that went northbound going from Andrew onto Ryan Road. So that's 6,141 cars that were either going onto or off of Ryan Road. So that means that y'all's development is going to add an additional 6,000 cars going into or out of Ryan Road, but they're going to be traveling that Ryan Road. How do y'all plan to get people out in a safe and expedited manner when you have all of these cars coming within, what, 300 feet of each other from Andrew to street A or whatever you call it? The driveway spacing, when we look at the driveway spacing from Thistle Hill to our entry road, we look at the city's, the ultimate use of that road way. What is the ultimate design section? What is the spacing? So if you look at Ryan Road and you drive up, there's a lot of, because it's developed over time, there's a lot of homes that front Ryan Road. So you have a lot of driveways with spacing that is relatively close. I think there's probably, you could probably find drives that are within 75 to 100 feet. Well when we look at our development, we go through our design, we set our entry to where it is, the distance apart from the entry to Thistle Hill meets the city's thoroughfare standards or traffic design standards so that there's adequate sight distance, there's adequate visibility. So somebody that stopped in our development at Ryan Road, they have good sight visibility, there's nothing impeding their visibility, and there's not going to be a car coming out of an adjacent driveway, whereas if they're coming out quickly and we're coming, somebody in ours is coming out slowly where it would create an issue . As far as the traffic count, I would imagine if those traffic count numbers, I would assume that those traffic count numbers probably included maybe traffic that was going through Thistle Hill to get south to Creek Delta, maybe other developments. So from a traffic, I'm not a traffic engineer, but working with our traffic engineers, I know that a residential, single family residential development typically generates about 9.5 trips per day. So if you round that up to 10, you're talking about 1,370 trips per day that's generated from this development. In a peak hour, AM and PM, it's around one per lot, so you 're talking about 137 peak hour trips that are added to the roadway system. Because the way our development is laid out, one of the things we did is, so we didn't have a straight through from Creekdale up to Ryan, we made it to where anyone coming or trying to go through the development would have to come down and go around. So we made several turns within the development that they would have to make. We didn't want to create a straight cut through. Studies have shown that if you make it harder for someone to cut through, you're going to reduce that traffic. So we didn't want to make this a development that's going to create an opportunity for a lot of cut through traffic. So I don't know if maybe their development has some cut through traffic in those numbers, but from a TIA standpoint, we would expect that 1,370 trips would be generated from this development per day. We would assume a certain percentage of those are going to go down to Creekdale and then go further south from there. What that percentage is without a TIA, I would probably guess that you might have 25% go south and 75% go north. Just because the lots on the southern portion of the development, it's going to be quicker for them to get out if they go down to Creekdale. Then I'm not sure there's another north-south connector street that goes out and I think comes out over by Sprouts. I'm not sure of all the street names. But that would be one way that the residents would get out and over to 2181. Well, they'd have to go to Creekdale to River Pass, Hickory Creek to then go on Hickory Creek, which is probably worse condition than Ryan Road. Let me ask you, did y'all talk to Ryan Ranch people, residents as far as dumping ever how many people into their neighborhood? We don't have any connectivity to their neighborhood. Well, Creekdale. Well, Creekdale, I believe River Chase, if it's the correct street. Yeah, River Pass. River Pass. It's a collector. Yeah, that's the western boundary of ... There's a north-south collector that ties into Creekdale that doesn't have any lots located on it. Ryan Ranch, it's my understanding if I'm thinking correctly , because I know when we looked at the sewer, because one of the things we looked at with the city is taking the Granada lift station offline and making it gravity, which would save the city money with operation expense for that lift station. One of the things we had to look at is there needed some upsizing of some of the sewer lines further south in that, I believe it's River Pass, River Chase. Yeah, River Pass, yeah. They mentioned that when we were talking about, they mentioned that if there was any upsizing required, they could potentially go that route because it's a collector and it did not impact any lots or a sewer line with services on it. But I'd have to look at a map to verify that because I'm not ... Okay. Thank you. It is River Pass, River Pass Drive. Are there lots fronting River Pass? They back to it. Back to it. Thank you. On the east side, the east side lots back to it and the west of that is still farmland. Any other questions for the applicant? Thank you. This is an individual agenda item and so I do have several other cards wishing to speak. I'll just take these in the order in which they were presented. I have Richard, I believe, Bodo, 3913 Maggie Meadow and it 's not marked whether it's in support of opposition. Please come forward, give us your name and address and then the card I have to follow you will be Karn Catherwood. Yes. Good evening. Thanks for the opportunity to speak to the board or to the commission. I am a member of Thistle Hills. Richard Bodo, 3913 Maggie's Meadow in Denton, 76210. I am actually the president of our Thistle Hills phase one HOA newly formed about one year ago. We do have some concerns, I wouldn't call it complete opposition, but we have some concerns on the new neighborhood. One, I guess I didn't get the question quickly and enough to the applicant. There's, I believe, it was indicated that there's 120 to 80 feet wide buffer on the one side and presently there's multiple trees that are tagged with yellow ribbons, but there's a whole lot of foliage in that area as well that are major trees that are not. I guess I would like to first of all ask the question if we can get an understanding if just the ones that are tagged yellow at the moment are planned to be saved or more than just that in that area. Okay, can I ask you if you have several questions for the applicant or just one? Probably the rest are more for the city. Okay, I'll ask the applicant to please come forward and let 's address the. As far as the tree tags, we have not done any tagging to signify what's being removed versus what's being saved. So when we go out and do our tree survey, when they tag certain trees, typically that's going to, the city of Denton has different classifications for trees. So the trees that have the ribbon would meet a certain classification, but what we do is we go out and we tag, we'll tag and tie all the trees that are six inches or larger, then we go through and put together a tree survey. When we did our development, our design, we, that buffer, the distance we set the buffer enabled us to look at minimal impacts to the trees. So there's very minimal, there are some trees that are being removed, but within that primary 120 feet width, the majority of those trees are being preserved. As far as when we have to go out and do some grading right up by the right of way, typically if there's a tree within 10 to 15 foot of the right of way, the grading activity is going to usually damage the tree to where it wouldn't survive. So any tree within probably 110 feet of that back property line would be preserved. And then that 10 and then 50 foot right of way, those were where you would start seeing tree removal. And then we're doing a trail through the trees and basically what we do on the design for the trail through the trees is it's kind of a design build trail so that we can kind of go through and weave through the trees and so that we're not removing trees to add concrete walk. We're building a concrete walk within the trees so that the citizens can enjoy the trees within the area. Does that answer your question? It does. Okay. I have a follow up while you're there at the mic. Have you already done your tree survey? We have. We have done the tree survey. It's been submitted to the city for review. We've done our grading plan. Our construction plans are under review through the city. So I'd have to go back and relook at the numbers, but if we looked at the overall tract and we looked at the percentage of canopy and caliper inches that we're saving, I think we're saving about 65% of the caliper inches on the site. The city has two different standards. They have canopy trees and then they have trees that are kind of individual trees. But as far as canopy goes, the requirement is preserving 20 %, I believe. I know a lot of the standards have been reviewed and there 's changes that are maybe being proposed. But the last time I looked, if something's been updated or changed, then I may not be speaking to what's current. But based on what's current, we're saving about probably around 45% over and above what would typically be required. So it's a very conservative approach, a very preservation- oriented approach to the trees. I figured it was. I'm going to give you the opportunity to address that. So thank you for answering my question. Please. May I ask him one additional question? Sure. With the development . . . Can you step closer to the mic so we can make sure and get it on the recording? I apologize. So with the development against Ryan Road, can you help us understand what type of, if you're going to have a wall in front of the development to Ryan Road and the construction of that wall? Yeah, absolutely. We are going to have a screening wall. So one of the other things we did is, if you notice on the connection to Ryan Road, a lot of developments will typically back lots to Ryan Road. We wanted ours to be kind of set back and create a buffer. So not only do we have the 120-foot buffer along our western edge, we've carried that through across Ryan. We are, as part of our requirements, we're going to have a masonry screen wall across Ryan Road. And then we also have an entry feature that's going to look . . . John could probably describe it better than I can, but it's going to be an entry monument that kind of has a bridge type feel as if you were going across a covered bridge into a . . . Appalachian. I knew you had a word for it. An Appalachian style entry feature. So it will be a real nice entryway. We've got a divided median for the street that's connecting to Ryan Road. So that divided median will have landscaping in it. So the amenity center will sit right in here. So as you're going westbound on Ryan Road and you look down through the creek and all, you'll be able to see the amenity center, the children's playground and the swimming pool. As you turn into Street A, we've got an HOA lot. So when you turn in, you're not going to see homes right of way. We have a masonry screen wall along there as well that kind of protects those first row of homes so that the headlights aren't shining into homes or backyards or anything. So we've got real nice landscaping, hardscaping designed for this entry. So there's quite a bit of beautification that's going on right there at Ryan Road. Thank you. Please continue. Okay. The next, thank you. The next question that I had is with the addition of Creeks ide now in addition to Teasley Trails, Forest Meadows, Ryan Meadows, so now we'll have basically four new developments coming in there. There was a traffic impact study for Ryan Road, I believe, done in 2014. And the first question is, is there, what is the plan to have another study done now that all these four new neighborhoods are coming in and the study was done before any of them have basically been in at all? Okay. That'd be something to have to ask staff to speak to on H aley or Richard who would like to take that. At this time, there are no immediate plans for any traffic study that I'm aware of. But as he mentioned with the impact fees being collected for each of the new subdivisions, the city will ask her that money and have it available when the plans are made for Ryan Road to be fully improved to its full right of way. I think Commissioner Beck has a follow up question for you Haley. Thank you Chair. Okay, nobody's talked about it yet, but correct me if I'm wrong. On our mobility plan, isn't Ryan Road scheduled to become either a main arterial or secondary arterial, a four lane road, possibly even with a medium in the middle? I know that could be way down the road, but isn't that in the plans on our mobility plan? Yes, sir. The ultimate attendance for it to be a secondary arterial, that would be at least 110 feet of right of way. So at least four lanes divided. So that's something to look forward to. The problem is that may not happen anytime soon. Yeah, that's the ultimate intent. Okay, but it would be able to handle a lot of the traffic that these developments are going to bring in when that happens. Yeah. Okay, thank you. I hate to have Haley getting up and down, so maybe if we just keep her here close. She can take a seat right there. Keep her here close. Close by, sure. Because the next question, I'm sorry. No, you're fine, go ahead. Because the next question really becomes, when do we think that will be with 137 homes here, with the other three subdivisions, which are hundreds of homes in there. With the one, sorry, I don't have the names all down. With the Ryan Meadows there, I think we were just talking about it over Christmas that before the beginning of last year, there was a lot of dirt work done, but we didn't see a home in there and we turn around now and there has to be 30 or more homes in there, several waiting on some permits, I think, and then moment arily people start flooding into that neighborhood. They're flooding into forest meadows and teesley continuously. We expect to see a huge influx of traffic in there very, very quickly. Can the commission help us to understand when we think that road is going to happen and where do we go to make sure that happens before we run into problems both with traffic and both with safety? We also have an elementary school back there. Needless to say, if we've got a lot of traffic there and we have a problem, obviously we have people parking on our right of way there in front of Thistle Hills on the median on a regular basis. I didn't realize that was a parking lot, by the way. That happens on a regular basis, so we have cars all over the place. Question one is when do we believe that that will actually happen and become a road? Then number two, we talked about this kiddie that all the developers are throwing money into. At what threshold does this kiddie hit the mark that says, "Okay, it's time to spend us," and start doing something to the roads? I'll take a stab at that. That's not something that our commission deals with. That's something that actually is going to be internal city staff and policy that they draft, so we can't address when those improvements will be or what the timeframe is. That was something that you would need to address to city staff directly on that. I'm sorry that that's just the honest answer that I can give you. Okay. As we would address that to city staff in a non-event like this, where would we then put that on record for the issue that we have in need out there? Looks like staff would like to weigh in here. Richard, if you can. A lot of that happens. Every year we look at it, they do a capital improvement plan. What they'll look at is the amount of money that's collected. Part of the issue, particularly with Ryan and the applicant 's representative, kind of headed to that, sort of to the west of you, there's still a lot of single family homes that abut Ryan Road. There's quite a bit of acquisition that still needs to take place. Some of that occurs when there's a plat. It's just a matter of acquiring that right away and at what time. When they come into plat, that's usually when the city is able to acquire that land. Otherwise, you're sort of really negotiating with a home owner to try to purchase that. I'll just further say that, of course, this is the preliminary plat stage. As this development continues, there will be other public forums within this board or with the city council to put those comments on record, I think is what you were asking, right? Yes. Okay. Thank you for your comments. My next speaker is Karn Catherwood to be followed by John Dickerson. Good evening, gentlemen and ladies. My name is Karn Catherwood. I live at 3941 Andrew Avenue, which is the freeway that runs through the middle of Thistle Hills Estates. We have a huge traffic problem. I've lived there 11 years. I'm aware of the concerns of most of the people who have moved in since we've been there and those who were there before us. Most of these concerns have been answered by the previous gentleman, and I'm grateful to hear some positive answers. I won't go back over those issues that he's already addressed. I would like to just mention once again and emphasize that there is a need for a traffic survey, traffic study, whether this is something that you guys do or that is delegated to somebody else. We are very worried about Gridlock and Ryan Road. All the new subdivisions, I'm not against them. I'm glad that they're there. We have to fill in the South Denton with folks, and that's what we're doing. But Ryan Road is not quite what I would call a mess, but it 's getting there. It's a little fuzzy in my mind whether or not there is a traffic survey planned. There was one done I think in 2014, but with all the houses , all the people, all the cars, you really need to do another one. It needs to be official, not just something that a developer does, and I'm grateful for the input from those who are developing Creekside, and that 's helpful, but something that is official from Country Club to Teasley, the whole length of the road in front of the elementary school. We need something done officially. It will cost a few bucks, I know, but it would make the people in my neighborhood very happy, and with time, it would probably accelerate Ryan Road becoming Four Lanes, which is going to have to become at some point in the future. So I just throw that out there as something for you folks to think about. One other item, and I'll be very brief. When preapproval was given for Creekside back in August of 2016, those of us who live next door to them knew nothing about it. It was really done very quietly and very discreetly. We all wish it had been done a little bit more publicly. We wish we had known a little bit about it. We didn't. We thought all that land was still for sale, and I was sort of shocked and surprised just a couple of weeks ago to find out that this kind of development and analysis had been going on for a couple of years. I know it takes time to do this analysis, and the folks involved have done, from what I can see, a very good job, and I compliment them, but I wish there had been a little bit more openness about it. It has created a funny impression in my neighborhood, and you don't want to create those kinds of funny impressions, because you have to deal with them, and people exaggerate and get worried, and there's no point in that happening. A little bit more openness would have been helpful. I do want to congratulate the developer for the plans for common areas in the new neighborhood, plans to keep the trees. We were all worried about that. They're going to come in now and cut down all of our beautiful trees that we have hanging over our backyards from the other side of the fence that divides us from the new area for Creekside. They're going to keep, I think he said 65 percent or 45 percent of them, quite a few of them. Thank you, thank you, thank you on behalf of the folks whose homes back up to your neighborhood. We'll watch you as you're building your houses, because we can see you out there. Thank you as well to whoever did it, that the gas well, which was directly in back of my backyard, within 400 feet of my property, is now defunct and dead. I'm so grateful that we don't have to look out our kitchen window and see that horrible apparatus and the infrastructure and know what's going on behind the scenes. I'm all for gas wells, mind you. I know we need them in Texas, but when they were that close to my backyard, that was a little worrisome. Thank you that that is now defunct and we can look at some nice houses rather than have to look at stuff like that. Thank you for your attention. Thank you for your comments, sir. Just a clarification. Mr. Dickson, have you already spoke? Okay. Let me go on. I have Billy Carraway, 3909 Andrew Avenue. I'm Billy Carraway, 3909 Andrew Avenue, and our home backs up to the development. I think most of my questions have been answered. I do have a couple to the developer. They had resurfaced Rhine Road and then they put the housing condition down at the end. Within two weeks, all Rhine Roads tore up. How are we going to handle this, keeping it from getting tore up once construction starts? The other one is most of the people on Andrew Avenue all have swimming pools. Where are we going to put the batch plants at? Are they going to be right up close to us or are we going to put them back when they start building the roads out there? Those are my two questions. Great. That's all I have. Thank you. I'll ask the developer's last card I have and he can address those two questions for us. The last card I have is John Dickerson or if you'd like to have your, Mr. Fletcher speak on your behalf, that'd be fine with me. I'll answer the first question first as far as the batch plant. The batch plant would be located within the development on the outside of the tree preserve kind of in the lots. Typically what they'll do is they'll come in, they'll do all the earth work, they'll bench the lots, they'll create an area within the lots that 's flat where they can set up the batch plant. They'll go in, they'll put all the utilities in. Once they get ready to pave, typically the paving on a project like this is probably only going to take four to five weeks at the most. So the amount of time the batch plant would be up would probably be four to five weeks and the batch plant would probably be located no closer than 250 feet. I think there's requirements within the city code that we have to follow. I'm not sure exactly what that distance is, but just the areas that would accommodate the batch plant would probably be well over 200 feet from those back property lines. As far as the roadway construction, generally when we go through and have pre-con, the city inspectors go out and they do an inspection of Ryan Road, the existing conditions. The city inspectors are monitoring the contractors throughout the development process. If there's damage to Ryan Road that they feel is directly associated with the construction or a specific contractor, they will note that and that will be something that they will have to fix or remedy. That portion of the process is really, I would say it's really governed or watched over by the city inspectors, but there is a process to where they 're watching the construction and making note of any damages that they feel that were accounted for by the construction. Mr. Hutchins, while you're at the microphone, city staff has all of your contact information for you and your firms, is that correct? Any of the residents that are here that may have some follow-up questions or so forth can certainly reach out to Haley and request contact information for you to follow up with additional questions if they have them. Absolutely. I'd be happy to. The other thing, I apologize I didn't bring it tonight, we 've got some real nice renderings, color renderings. If I would have realized that there were a lot of questions , I would have brought that and shared that with you. I'm happy to provide that and share it. It shows kind of the tree preserves, the trails, the amenities that we're doing, it shows the entry feature, it shows the screening fences. So if there's interest in that, I would be happy to share. That's part of the PADA, so it is a public document, but I 'll be glad to email that out to anyone. Where can they get that if it's a public document? They could request it through the city. It's part of Ordinance 2016-251. The documents, a lot of times when they scan the ordinance, the quality of the exhibits isn't quite what it would be if I provided the PDF, so they can either get it through there or I'll be happy to provide that to anyone that would want a copy of it. Okay, great. Thank you for that. You have something? I just wanted to add, if someone is interested in receiving that document, at the end of the meeting, if you want to provide your email address to Athenia, we can email that out to everyone tomorrow. Okay, great. Thank you. That's all the cards that I have here before us. This is not a public hearing, but it is an item for individual consideration. So if you would like to speak on the item, you may. You'll need to fill out a card, and I have no more cards. So with that, I will move us on on this particular item and open the floor up, and then Commissioner Sullivan. Thank you, Chair. My biggest concern about this project is simply the traffic that is going to be the result, resulting on Ryan Road, number one, Hickory Creek, second of all, because I don't think that when you look at the size of Thistle Hill and how many trips that generates, you're all going to be about the same size, and who knows how many cars are going to be in there. The last traffic survey, as has been mentioned, was 2014, and that was for just a portion of Ryan Road, not the entire Ryan Road. Since then, Teasley Trail has added 167 homes, Ryan Meadows 141, to go along with 150-some odd in Thistle Hill, plus who knows how many in Forest Ridge and Montecito subdivisions. Forest Ridge and Montecito were on the north side of Sharon Rose. Elementary schools at both ends, plus a Walmart on the eastern end of it. I noticed in the handout that we got this evening for next meeting that a traffic analysis is required, but the development would generate equal to or more than 1,000 vehicle trips per day. Well, obviously, one development may or may not do that to the size that we're talking about, but when you look at all the developments that have gone in, in a relatively short length of road, I think that the least the city could do is to perform a traffic survey, spend the $896,000 that these guys are putting up, plus who knows how much more Teasley and Ryan Meadows has put up, and make it a full four-lane highway. I don't know if that is a condition that we can add to these people, or if it's something that maybe needs to be tabled so that the city can do its magic in making sure that there is no additional impact done on Ryan Road to further deteriorate the road, and just make it more of a hassle, because what's going to happen is, as every citizen in this room can attest to, the one thing we all agree to is our city's streets are not very good. Why compound the problem to come in after the fact, after all these subdivisions have gone in, including the other two phases that they're going to put in, and then we're going to tear up Ryan Road and make it a bigger hassle to get up and down the street? It just makes no sense to me. Thank you. Thank you. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. And actually, Commissioner Sullivan kind of hit a lot of what I wanted to address, too, but I did want to go on record and see if we could give some satisfaction to the people that have to live out there, whether it's anybody in City Night, Haley, Ron, that can give us an idea when we could motivate whoever needs to be to do a TIA, a traffic impact analysis. I agree. It's frustrating to know that this road is going to be widened eventually, but not knowing when is frustrating. We can't get a handle on that as well as we like, but a TIA , it seems like, considering all the development that's going on there, we should be able to do that and be able to give the citizens an answer when that will happen. Ron, would you be the right person to ask on that? Who would be the individual in the city that we could pick on to try and get that started? Commissioner, I'll try to attempt to answer that question. Of course, right around has always been on our radar. It's obviously part of our future mobility plan and hopefully our CIP program as well. I think the people that are in charge or are responsible for that are listening, or if they're not, we will definitely make sure that they hear you and watch this video to make sure that they hear what the concerns are along Ryan Road is. I'm wondering, would it be possible to, maybe Richard or somebody can answer this, could by our next P&Z meeting, could we have somebody maybe come to the work session and give us a little bit more detailed information that we can share with the community? Is that possible? That's a higher-end project matrix. I ask about that. Yes. In fact, at the next meeting, we'll be discussing the new criteria manual and the capital improvements director, city engineer, will be here at that meeting. I will let him know to be prepared to answer those questions. Great. Thank you. Thanks, Ron. Will that be Todd Estes? It'll be Todd Estes. The other contact person might be Jim Jenks? Correct. Those would be a couple of city staffers that would be in a position to address some of the questions here before us. Commissioner Smith. Thank you, Chair. The TIA would be a great thing to do, but let's look at the material facts, what we're talking about tonight. We're talking about a development that's ready to come in now. Even if the TIA comes back, as Richard's already mentioned, there's further down Orion Road if there wanted to be future expansion, we've got land that still needs to be claimed. We have to wait for either emino domain or have to wait for replotting on those lands, and you tell me when that's going to happen. The expansion of Orion Road is unknown, and if we had to put at least a timeline on it, it's probably not within the next five years if I had to make a wild guess off the cuff. So sit here and say, "Let's get a TIA done." The TIAs is going to come back and tell us exactly what we already know. It's bogged. It's going to be bogged. We're going to come back and say, "All right, we need to expand Orion Road." Okay, we're not going to be able to expand Orion Road tomorrow or next week or next year. So I just say put it up for consideration that, yes, while the TIA and talk about expanding Orion Road is great, it's not immediate. It's not something that can be done quickly, and we have something we have to vote on now and talk about. So not really anything more to add to it than just help everyone understand and get some clarity to the actual gravitas of the situation here. If I can just add to that, just a reminder that this is a preliminary plan, so this item will come up for final, and I think that might give staff some more time to address those concerns. Okay. Commissioner Smith. Motion to accept with the city staff's conditions. Are there some conditions on that? Recommendation for approval? No. That's it. I think there were. That's a with city staff condition on my motion. The two that are presented in the back? The two that are presented in the back, yes. So with the city staff's recommendations. Just for clarification for the guys in the back when they do the records. Yes, you're welcome. So we have a motion to approve with the two conditions as recommended in our backup. Okay. Commissioner Sanchez. I second that. We have a first and a second for approval. Any discussion? I'll make a comment before we vote. I would echo Commissioner Sullivan's concerns about Ryan Road and the improvements and a lot of your points were discussed in great detail a number or a couple years ago, I guess, when the traffic impact fees came before us and were adopted by the city. There's a concern I expressed at the time is that we're going to collect the fees, people are going to move in, finally get enough money, and we're going to tear up the roads. And that's unfortunately the way that that moved forward. And it's going to be, I think, the process for our city going forward to play, unfortunately, some catch up. But these gentlemen are contributing a significant amount of money to that effort above and beyond two times what's currently required. And so I think they're certainly paying their fair share for their impact and their development. And so with that, I'm going to support the motion and have a comment from Commissioner Sanchez. I'm relatively new on this commission and it seems like that's one of the big issues we've had every time we talk about developments is that the roads usually aren't going to be done when the development is done. So I don't really see a solution until the funds, those impact funds are collected. So it just seems like you're not the only people that are facing this every week or every couple of weeks that we meet. We find the same issue over and over again throughout the city. And there's no solution at this time other than when those funds are collected and then the city starts using those funds to be able to expand these roads. And just like Mr. Smith said, basically, you know, we don't have the answer, but hopefully as the as money to get collected, then those roads are developed. Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. I just want to thank everybody for coming out tonight for the citizens and making their presentation. You know, this commission needs a lot of input from the people out there that we serve. So I appreciate you coming down. I appreciate Mr. Fletcher and Mr. Dickerson for their presentation, for clearing up a lot of things. As Commissioner Smith suggested, and I know this is just a preliminary plat, but community meetings are always a great, great thing to do to offset a lot of concern. One of the one thing I did want to point out that I was delighted to hear you mention is the salvaging of I think 60, 65 percent of the trees. Yeah, you could have removed a lot more by city standards. The fact that you've done that, that pleases me tremendously. So I'm glad to hear that. And I think everybody that lives in that area ought to recognize the fact that it could have been a lot worse. So these gentlemen are being commended for salvaging what they have done there. So thank you for that. Mr. Sullivan, I can understand the philosophy of, gosh, that's not our role. And gee, you know, the city works slow and this is what we talked about forever. But I don't understand the idea that current citizens living in current houses have to pay the price for the city not doing their job. And so I don't see why it is we continue as a board to approve developments when we know darn good and well other people are going to be negatively impacted. And yet we use the idea of growth as the excuse. You know what? People are already here. Let's take care of our own first. If speculators want to come in and buy land and build houses someday, great for them. But meanwhile, I think we need to protect our citizens first. Thank you. Commissioner Schmidt. Thank you, Chair. Anything on my motion or anything you would want to add to a motion that would make it better for the citizens who are currently there? That's purely just an informational question that we can go to vote. It can be struck down. If you bring up a motion or bring up a motion that sounds that would be more amenable to the situation. Commissioner Sullivan. I've been told that we can't do that. So a condition would be we wait until the traffic impact study is made for the entire Ryan Road before any more construction is done. That would be my motion. Commissioner Schmidt. Not to keep playing tennis ball here. Legal, can you give just a public statement for Plenary Pl att? It's approved tonight, moves forward. How much timeline, how much runway do we think we have to be able to get a TIA in before a final approval for this is done? When would the final, do we have it scheduled already? Final Platt? I'd have Haley address the- I think planning would have a better idea of the timeline. The timeline. Yeah. There's two years between a preliminary plot and a final plot before the preliminary would expire and a new one would be required. So that would be the potential timeframe in which that could be done. But I will say that the final plot for this is in review with staff currently. So fairly soon after the gas well plugging is complete, I expect that that would be ready to come before the board. Do you know, I guess the question was talking months, weeks ? It really depends on the gas well and the review of their civil plans, but it would most likely be within the next couple of months. Okay. And then- But up to two years is possible. I'm making a statement that would still come, the final would come before this board again. Just to clarify, the TIA would only relate to their project . Correct. It would be for the entire- Yeah. And there's nothing we can add on to be able to request TIA before we approve? I think it would be difficult to have it for the entire length considering that they are contributing to the impact fee that they are, what was negotiated part of that agreement. Typically when you look at a road, it's designed to obviously a certain capacity or it can handle a certain amount of vehicles per lane. It's kind of like the chicken or the egg type approach of what comes first. And it starts to, when it starts to, that level of service starts to degrade, that's typically when you'll see those improvements move forward. With this one, it's a little bit more complicated because there is right of way that needs to be acquired as well as, if I'm not mistaken, there's some, quite a bit of utility lines that would probably need to be relocated as well. So it's quite a bit of an undertaking. And I'll just add or reaffirm that that traffic impact study would be narrowly for that development only. Correct. That's all you would get out of it. It's going to be tough for us to be able to ask for a TIA for an entire road whenever it's a world. We're only talking about the preliminary plotting for one subject. Correct. Thank you. I just want to exasperate all things publicly. That's all. We've got a motion before us and a second for approval with the two conditions as mentioned in backup. And seeing more, any more discussion, I'm going to call for a vote on the board. Motion is going to carry four to one. That will move us to our public hearing section this evening. Give the room a minute to clear if people are going to head out. Good luck on your project. Members are coming out. This time I'm going to move on on our agenda item 4A. I'm going to open the public hearing for Z17-0025B. This is the item that's going to be continued. Commissioner Beck. I move that we move this as it puts us forward to the date certain of February 21st. Awesome. Good job. Commissioner Smith. I second. All right. We have a motion to continue to date certain of February the 21st on this item. We're going to leave it open so it does not need to be re- noticed. And I will call for a vote on the board. That motion is going to carry five to zero. As announced at the beginning of our meeting, our items 4B and 4C, the woodlands on McKinney Street have both been withdrawn and we do not have a date certain on those. That will conclude our public hearings items tonight and that will move us to our project matrix and concluding items. Commissioner Smith. Thank you, Chair. Richard, is there any kind of conversation we can have, at least during work session, that would be around what power we have as a commission or recommendation we can make to City Council for developers to have more neighborhood meetings and what scenarios we can do that? I think we have maybe a report from you guys on what we can do to be able to try to put that. Make that a precedent because I think that's a question we 've been having quite a bit during meetings, having a call to African up here, let's talk to them real quick. Have you had a neighborhood meeting? Yes, you have. No, you haven't. And it seems like every single time it's been, yes, there's been a neighborhood meeting, it's just such a much smoother process. Absolutely. In fact, we have that as one of the items for the, as part of the code update to sort of formalize that more in the code. Just to kind of give a for example, if you remember the palladium, I was telling the Chair earlier, we had quite a number of folks here speaking against that. Would you say which project that was again? Could take me a minute. This was the site on, it had a component of affordable housing that was changing to NRMU 12. This was loop and Poinsettia. Sherman Drive, Poinsettia, and Harvard. When that item came to council, there were the applicant actually the very next day started revising their plan, went out and met with the neighbors. And when we had the public hearing in front of city council , the two ladies that were very outspoken, they were the only ones that showed up, sat through five hours of public hearing to get up to speak in support of the development is the first thing I first time I've ever seen that in my 22 years doing it. But it goes to your point. It goes, it goes a long way. So we anytime an applicant comes forward now, we we've been advising them it's really in their best interest to meet to meet with the neighbors. I don't think Commissioner Strange could probably sympath ize with me here. I'd hate to be going to the developers and having to throw up another piece of red tape. But I don't like adding more bureaucracy to bureaucracy already. But there are sometimes some new rules and regulations can can speed up a process, you had a rule to be able to speed up a process. So yeah, we can have an update on it or if there's no need for it, then I think it's one of those, you know, if you know going into it, it's one thing you can sort of plan that in your schedule. But if you know, an applicant comes in and we're through the and then all of a sudden we spring it on them. Yeah, it's it's not I mean, it's not fair. But we just need to be consistent in how we sure. Thank you. Anything else? When is the item that I asked for? I want to say it's been a few weeks ago, maybe before Christmas. That kind of the same thing we spent a lot of time on tonight talking about whose responsibility it is on all the painting. Is that going to be next week's or that will be that will be that will be part of the discussion at the next work session with respect to the the transportation manual. Great. Looking forward to that. I'm getting that on. OK, anything else? OK, with that, I'm going to close us tonight at seven thirty seven. Thank you, everyone, for coming out.