Jul 26, 2017 Planning and Zoning Commission on 2017-07-26 5:00 PM

the 26th. It is 5.02 and this meeting has been dually posted and we have a quorum present and I will call us to order at this time. Our first order of business will be to receive clarification of agenda items and I will turn it over to Manal for presentation of those items. Thank you Chair person Strange. On our consent agenda we have a preliminary plight and three final plots. If there any questions related to those plots I'd welcome the project managers to help address those and then of course one of the items on the agenda work session item is a detailed presentation from John Davis, from our engineering team. So if there any questions to relate to the plot if not. Commissioner Rozelle. The only question I have is on FP170006. It's not attached to any road. Does that matter? I don't know the requirements for being adjacent to a road. Absolutely. Hayley has some good insight into this one. This has been an interesting one. Hayley just walk us through the entire subdivision plot. So this final plot is just for one lot. It's off of Teasley and Old Alton and you are correct it is landlocked by already platted properties so to provide access they have an access easement that comes off of Old Alton and goes down along the side of the property. There was a platted access easement for them to obtain access to the property and it's all it's all fully developed. I believe this site is trying to expand so that's what triggered them to come in and pl att but that has been their means of access for years is my understanding. Thank you. Commissioner Beck. Thank you Chair. Is that paved or is it going to be an old gravel road? I believe it's a paved drive. Thanks. Any other questions on this platt? Nope. Commissioner Elst, do you have a question on a platt? I do Chair. Thank you. Sorry. Mine has to do with the the Gisling Industrial Park and it's just more for my clarification. So we've got a preliminary platt for two lots but then a final platt for just one so I guess I just was wanting just the reasoning of that. The applicant is proposing to preliminary platt the whole site that's what they're required to do according to the Texas Local Government Code but they're only final plattin one lot of the two. Lot two will be final platt within two years of approval of the preliminary platt. Okay understood. Thank you for clar ifying it for me. I appreciate it. Commissioner Beck. Since Commissioner Elst brought it up I was just curious the ASA to the west of that Gisling Industrial Park and the trees there do we know if they're going to be impacted by the development? Yes there will be they will have to meet the tree code ordinance the tree code regulations that we have. Okay so we're gonna lose a lot of those trees? That will depend upon the development but they haven't applied for development yet. All righty thanks. Any other questions on platt? Superb I'd like to introduce John Davis who's going to give us a presentation and seek direction from you regarding the amendments to the City of Denton Water and Wastewater Criteria Manual and the Construction Criteria Manual and Associated Updates to the Standards. Thank you John. Thank You Manal. Commissioners I'm John Davis with the engineering with the engineering I'm here to go over with you in great detail all hundred and twenty two pages of those changes and so forth I'll try to make it as brief as I can please. Let me just the process for this and the reason that we're here at all. There are six criteria manuals that are identified in the city's development code there. You see them here you also see basically the size and the last time they were updated. We're in the process of updating all of these manuals and we've started with of course the latest the oldest ones here first and we bring to you the amendments proposed amendments for the first two here. You can see the others that are quite lengthy but the transportation design and drainage design criteria manuals were last updated in 2013. This is the process by the city's development code there and Jennifer is here to keep me on track and correct me when I go off track. It basically is for us to prepare the proposed amendments to present those amendments to you for suggestions and comments if you have any. We are then to post those amendments on the city's website and at City Hall here. In addition to that we plan to email out to all development oriented people who are registered in the city 's track it system I notice that hey we're in the process of updating these and here's the notice and here's where you can find these documents there. We'll post the proposed amendments, we'll post the summary amendments there or summary of those amendments and we'll post the existing manuals there so that they can see what proposed changes are proposed there. Yes ma'am. Commissioner Ellis. Thank you Chair. Track it system can you enlighten me on that? Who's in it? How do they get in it? All developers or developer engineers who apply for a permit development permit with the City of Denton are registered in it with email addresses. I believe that's correct. So just an automatic thing when they do. Okay. We'll auto-generate through our software permitting and plan review software whomever we can notify that this is what's going on. Excellent. It's a big list. We think we think this is the best way to reach as many of the development community as possible there and make sure we have direct contact with them. After we post those we're required to post them for not less than 30 days for public comment. We will receive comments during that time, track those comments. We'll also in addition to the ordinance requirements try to place on the website a summary of the comments we received and what action we've taken for those comments so that people can keep up with them as we go through the process there. The ordinance calls for us to attempt to resolve all protests or requests that we request for review that we've received there. If we can do that at the end of the 30 days then the amendments become final automatically. I call it administratively. If we cannot resolve those protests or requests for review there then it would then go back to you or go back through the process as an ordinance then using the rezoning process that you're familiar with. It would come back to you for a public hearing. You would make a recommendation to the City Council. City Council would hold a public hearing and they would take final action on whatever's not resolved there. Commissioner Bec. Thank you Chair. Thanks Mr. Davis for explaining that but I'm still reading that like we can't if we can't get it in his amendment then we'll get it as an ordinance. So it suggests that the issue isn't resolved but we're gonna go ahead with it anyway as an ordinance and I misunderstand that. If we're not if the city still feels that a specific requirement that is being protested or not agreed to by the community and public at all. If we still feel that is the way that that is a requirement that's really necessary to protect the public health and welfare within the development community there then we would go back to come back to you for public hearing. You would hear our argument. You would hear the public's argument against that . The reasoning for that then you would make a recommendation to the City Council just like in a rezoning case you'll hear both sides of the argument like a recommendation. City Council would then hear both sides of the argument again and they would then take final action. Okay. So it's not an automatic it it basically provides for a a hearing type process there so that the public can be heard of why they feel that that is not a acceptable change there. But is there a chance then that this particular item that's being protest ed may not make it into the criteria manual? Yes sir. Okay. Okay. And not that I want to see that I just wanted to make that clear. All right. Thank you sir. You're welcome. That is the extent of my total presentation there. I have passed out to you at your places there summaries of the proposed changes for the water and wastewater and for the construction criteria manual there. I don't plan on going into any detail with those. Basically the proposed changes are updates to the manuals there that have already been in practice through the years there because things have changed since 2002 when these were last updated. Commissioner Mack. Again what I tended to see was we were just kind of looked like we were converting stuff to the digital age more so taking that things were going to be more online than hard copy stuff. That is a major part of it. That is not all of it. Over the years since 2002 when they were last updated a number of different pipe materials have changed. For example the current manual calls for an allowable material is cast iron pipe. I'm not sure that they even make cast iron pipes anymore. Today it's ductile iron pipe in providing for things like that. I'm sorry I don't recall the name of it but the predecessor to the Texas Conservation and Environmental Quality Commission I guess this TCEQ that 's that old name is still in the manual and TCEQ is not there. The TCEQ rules and administrative rules have been updated over the years and we refer in some cases in the old manual to the old rule. This updates it and we've taken quite a bit of time to go back and cross reference and make sure that the references are correct now. There are some old charts there that we have pulled in the past from the TCEQ rules placed in there and they've been updated slightly there and we've placed new charts in the proposed amendments to the manual. Is it safe to say that for the future most piping is going to be a PVC material? It depends on what sizes and what type whether it's water or wastewater but smaller sizes I think it is. Okay so there might be some metal piping? Yes sir the larger pipes would be ductile iron and even some freeze-dressed concrete pipes there for the very large water transmission lines and even for the large wastewater lines there. Thank you. Sure. Commissioner Sullivan. I guess I'm a little concerned or I just don't know enough about water but it looks like on 3.5C water pipe shall be a minimum of now 8 inches in diameter used to be 6 inches in diameter. Yes sir. Again I don't know anything about the dynamics of water but anytime you increase diameter you're gonna decrease pressure. So how is this going to affect water pressure at the hot you know at a person's faucet? That's... Hacks that will enlarge the larger pipe will decrease the pressure loss there so the pressure should be greater at the location there. So that if you replace or is this for a new construction or if you come in and have to replace there's a water line break you know and so now you gotta come in and replace that pipe so is that that situation or if it's new construction that's going in? It's actually excuse me it's actually both if the city comes in and replaces a water line break and it's just a short section and it's an existing six inch pipe probably match it up. If we're going to replace an entire street length of it or block or so of it it's most likely going to be the 8 inch pipe there. So if you go from 6 inch to 8 inch how does that affect the pressure at the faucet? The pressure there should be depending on the length of it at all it actually theoretically should be a bit higher. The smaller the pipe the greater the pressure loss with the water going through it there. That's why I said I don't understand anything about water so but it seems to me that you'd be having since you have more water going through increase the diameter that that is in the end result would decrease pressure but what you're saying is actually would maintain or even increase the pressure with the hydrant because you've got more fluid going through a bigger pipe. Yes sir and okay and the primary reason for changing from minimum of 6 inch to 8 inch is fire fluid. Because I know when I put my finger over the half of the hose it goes a lot faster than if I'm you know that the whole hose is open and so that's why it doesn't make sense. Yes sir. I don't understand water. Thank you very much appreciate it. John do you have a summary perhaps or something on the screen that you can show some of the strike through so that the Commission gets a better feel on? Let's see. If you have anything you can pull up. Superb. Yes as exhibits three and four to your agenda packages there we've provided the documents the existing documents and the proposed changes in track changes format. Red lion edition underline red underline and red strike through there and let's see if I can find. Uh oh let's see I will have to reload here for that one. And certainly if you as you're I really didn't expect you to look over every one of these between the time we posted tonight and all or this evening but if you as you have time or later you flip through it you don't if you are having trouble going to sleep at night you could read this look at it if you see something you have a question about or that you have a concern about or you have any suggestions to improve it please we are here to. This is our work session. This is your work session yes. So I assumed we were going to go through the attachments but if we're not. It would be wise to do that. Okay. Commissioner Sullivan. After I get through my password. Do we have your password so we can look at it? I'm kidding. Sure. Might as well. Somewhere there's a flash drive that I used to have floating around that I lost in the parking lot here. With a lot of information on it. That's why I have a password on this one. I understand. You can see the number of different different community design manuals we've accumulated and researched there to try to prepare our updates here as well as our current practices. What I'm looking at is 3.3.1 fire hydrant spacings. Yes sir . What is the new because it just you know chapter 29 of the city code and appendix B blah blah blah. So how does that change the distance from 600 feet in residential 300 in commercial industrial? What's the new number? It's the same number. It's just in a different location in the manual now. It's back in it's under a section called fire hydrant locations and coverage. Gotcha. So instead of having a specified number you're just using that so in the event that that changes then y'all can change with it as it goes. Yes sir. Gotcha. Thank you. Let's see is that it's a bit large there. Let's see if I can. 3.17 is fire hydrant. Commissioner Beck. Thank you chair. Question for you. Yes sir. Way back there. On page nine of our handout water design guidelines 3.1 general. You eliminated a couple of documents you struck through. Are they no longer one of them was the rules and regulations for public water systems established by the Texas Natural Resources Conservation Commission and it was eliminated for water and wastewater. This looked like a pretty good document. So I'm just curious are these outdated now? Are the ones that you're keeping or putting in, do they cover the areas of the ones you struck out? Yes sir we've struck out the ones that are outdated and for example the north central Texas before it simply said north central Texas standard specifications is actually the north central Texas council governments. The NCD COG standard specifications there. The city of Dent on's water wastewater plan we've added and this entire reference section here for wastewater has the same for water we have updated there. I'm sorry this is for water. We've updated that you see here we've updated it to refer to TCEQ rules the Texas administrative code. This manual and the city standard details appendix of course when this was done in 2002 we didn't have the current fire code we're operating under which is the 2012 fire code. So the references throughout are now to the appropriate sections of the 2012 fire code and this is typical of the amendments throughout the document there with additions being in red underlying and the deletions being in red strike through. The water main separation we have taken that from the current TCEQ administrative code which we're all required to do that we this city are required to maintain and follow . We've also referenced that here and under the wastewater section section four we actually reproduce those requirements from TCEQ's administrative rules there so that the applicant or the design engineer doesn't have to turn around and every time they're looking for something go back go to the web and find that. It's probably safe to say that the documents you eliminated you kept the applicable stuff in it in other forms and other documents. Yes sir. Okay. Okay. It's updated. What you will find also if you compare it page by page between this proposal amendment in the existing the old manual if you will the existing manual, you will find that I have not shown and track changes because it would get quite lengthy and quite cumbersome to try to even follow it . If it referred to an office that's no longer in the city that we don't call it that office anymore. We call it something else for example, engineering department is referred to in the current manual, there is no engineering department anymore it's capital improvement engineering division. So those changes have been made. And they're not shown as track changes there so that cleans up better and you can follow the changes and see the real changes that have better significant changes if you will. Moving on to page 28. We talked about most of the pipes being PVC. Yes sir. Page 2802. It talks about wastewater collection system pipe that crosses above a water supply pipe must be constructed at least 150 psi pressure class corrosion resistant non brittle pipe. PVC is really takes a long time for it to do that. It has like a 50 year life, but is that would that be an area where you come in with metal, then if you've got to use a non brittle. No sir, PVC is a pliable type pipe, if it's underground, if it's above ground, then it does become brittle there. We used to call it ultraviolet degradation. Right, right. So see it becomes brittle and crack when exposed to ultra violet light exposure, cold temperatures, age and chemical exposure. So, age would be one thing I believe it's set under the right conditions, it has a life duration of about 50 years, which is a good long time. But it can become brittle. Yes sir. It's generally referring to other pipes cast iron pipe and some other types of pipes. The comment about non brittle. Yes sir. The cast iron pipes are brittle. There are some old one forgotten that the asphalt impregn ated pipes were brittle when they were placed in there, I wouldn't no longer even use those. They're no longer allowed in the under the plumbing code for services and that's the way they were used in the john 60s and early 70s. Can we start just kind of at the beginning and I think if we've got questions as we go through if we get to the page and you've got a question on we can go that but everybody gets an opportunity to just kind of go start to finish and those that are watching and everything else can keep up with us. You see that there are lines on the right hand side here. It was my rat seems to be acting up here. So that would be indicative of some editorial changes or formatting changes here in it. The preliminary design section that's in the old section there is really applicable only to city projects, these manuals are applicable both city projects and development projects there. So we've come in and indicated that in this section here. As you so aptly pointed out earlier, we've indicated electronic folders and filing systems and all here. Internal coordination, Commissioner Ellis. Sorry chair. So, I know you're saying you're clarifying applicable only to city projects. Is that how it always was and we just need to put that in there. Yes. Okay. So, I do in a later section, indicate to development engineers that they might also want to review this section in order to determine some of the agencies they probably should coordinate with, like some of the external utilities on their projects. Here you'll see a typical engineering capital projects administrator, there is no such position anymore is now director of capital projects. Again, name changes some additional positions in their engineering development review that reviews these and suggested of what should be done to coordinate with those people there. This was an old form that's in the existing manual. And here was what we indicate that the email communication should include record research. We have GIS maps now. We didn't have them at 2002. We suggest some surface utility engineering firms be considered for those projects those are the ones that you see out in the roadway, digging, we call them potholes jet ting small holes into the pavement or ground there to determine exact locations and depths of utilities there. And then we've updated the utility companies here. Commissioner Ellis. Yes ma'am. Thank you, Chair. We have a charter now called spectrum. That was my question on that one. I don't know that there is a charter anymore. I think it's called spectrum. Okay, good. Thank you. Shows you up to date I am. Commissioner was oh. Is there any flexibility to the utility companies to be contacted I mean it seems like there could be the addition of subtraction. Fluidly. How does that work. If, if charter changes his name, or we get another cable provider besides frontier communications, does this have to be amended. Just trying to list the ones that are current there. The last listing here you see is Texas 811, which is the call before you dig. So that's going to if there are other utilities, maybe there are private utilities in that area, then hopefully that's going to catch those. And we failed to advise you earlier, our intent in the future. Once we update these manuals is to update them once a year annually in the same sequence that we're updating them now so that they don't become so obsolete with outdated company names as you pointed out. John on that will go through the same press process annually so you'll present, just like you're doing now send it out for public comment if there isn't any it's automatically adopted if there is work through those. Yes, sir. That'd be the problem. That's the, that's the only way currently that the manuals can be updated or changed. And then it gets into the specifics of the water design guidelines that we looked at earlier, updating the references for it, updating the water separation from the water mains. Commissioner Beck. I have a question here. To 3.3, it's on page 10 of our supplement on B, says every new water system should include two or more connections to the existing city water system and feasible to ensure an adequate and reliable water supply they've been water main break or routine system maintenance. Can you explain how that works? Yes, sir. Think of. Let's take, for example, you're familiar with the. It's not razor ranch but the one on the north side of us 3 80 the commercial development there marketplace, where Walmart and Sam's Club and everything is. Listen, if they came in and just tied into the water system on the westerly side of that long development there. Development to the city's main or to the city's main along us 380 there. There'd be without fire flow protection and without potable water. So they put one further down the line. If you, if they were to connect twice at least one on the westerly side and one on the eastern side, perhaps along. Bonnie Bray Road there, then they could have redundancy. They would also have more a better fire flow pressure there through it and provide pressure for the development there. They also have a better, more reliable fire flow there for it in case one went down, or if they had something, a fire. They don't, but if they did, if they were pumping only from one supply pipe into it, they could pull that down pretty fast. If they're pumping from to supply points into it, and they've got much better pressure and more water volume. So would this be something that is more have to be used on commercial developments or is this something we'd see in residential areas commercial and larger residential areas. Yes, sir. You might have an apartment complex with several apartments in it and all these story buildings there that might need to have to water connections there. Thank you. Sure. We also over the years have standardized the water service sizes for the different sizes of water meters and those water meters we've inserted that portion in this area here. We've been using that for quite some time. It's just not in the manual. This way, new development engineers coming in from out of the area can see fairly quickly what the requirements are there. And here was the change from the six inch lowest size standard pipe to eight inches. We still indicate that six inch could be used for fire hydrant connections and short dead end mains for a short cul-de-sac or something with limited service connections. The appendix B of the 2012 International Fire Code. A duplication in the area here here to show you how old it is special and unique exceptions to the above standards may be paid by the planning and zoning Commission have to recommendation from the public utilities board. Well, that's no longer the adapt that you've ever seen one. It's actually the director of water utilities that makes it fire hydrant spacing. Commissioner Beck. Well, I was going to wait till I got a 3.3 point three there. Okay, fire hydrant spacing here has been moved down to a lower section there, and it still remains to be 600 in residential and 300 and industrial commercial. Public fire hydrant. Commissioner Sullivan. Any reason for the difference between 600 and 500. 600 and 300. Well, I mean, you know, 600 in residential area, so I know from an insurance standpoint 500 gives you a better rate. And so I'm just wondering why the city have a 600 foot rather than the 500 foot. If they're spaced 600 feet apart, then the further you can be as 300 feet. Exactly. That's why you're here and I'm not there. You've got a tougher job than I do. Appreciate that. Thank you. I didn't think about that. Thank you. Again, reference to the 2012 the update for the code here for the 2012 area here. 2012 International Fire Code. Yes, sir. 3.3 point three. If a fire flow test on the existing water system is necessary. Yes, sir. The water utilities. Okay. Who determines this? Fire flow test. That's going to be basically determine what if the city doesn't have the detailed information available at that time if they haven't run a fire flow test in that area. If the mechanical engineer of the buildings that are building it that are designing the fire protection there say hey we need a fire flow test to make sure that we're going to design the sprinkler system properly here. Jim. Anything else you can think of. Jim jinx is our manager of development review and deals with these things on a daily basis. The private sector as well as somebody in city planning can determine this. Well, we often get requests from developers engineers for fire flow tests and with these we go out and for I believe it's still for no charge. We go out and open up a hydrant put a meter on it actually see what comes out of the hydrant. And we can kind of extrapolate it down to you know minimum pressure what would be that way like John was saying they can helps give them information where they can properly size their fire protection systems. The fire flow test measures flow available flow, and it measures pressure there, and we really want to run those over a period of time so that we can tell during the peak demand times where the pressure will be the lowest in that area was the lowest so that the mechanical engineer can design his or her fire flow fire protection system for the lowest pressure that's available in the lowest flow that's available there. When you say floor talking about volume volume yes okay. Commissioner Sullivan. What is the pressure rate at the flow rate but the pressure what you know in that test. What's the minimum what's the maximum that you're looking for. Most of our pressures in the city I think are in the neighborhood of 40 to 50 psi or more. Yes, the. I believe with the fire for the TC the state TCEQ requires that during fire flow events that system pressure be maintained at least 20 psi. And oftentimes when these fire flow tests are done. We will suppose to do it to where you you flow enough water to get a 10% or a 10 psi drop in pressure, you can actually extrapolate mathematically down to project what what the flow rate would be. If you got all the way down to 20 psi. Thank you. In fact, when we design water systems, we want to design so that the minimum pressure for our house or residents for building is 20 psi we prefer it to be higher, but we never want it to be below 20. 35, according to the state. Okay, absolute minimum during normal operation. Most of our system pressures are in the 40 to 80 psi range. Thank you. We were a bit we were a bit more likes in Florida where you don't have near the hills that we have here. A change in 3.5 just add in fittings here, because our table now we've deleted the old table. The pipe gasket material. And we've indicated we've inserted charts 3.5 dash one or tables 3.5 dash one. We've also this is throughout the manual. We've taken and we refer to instead of a number of the old drawings that were in the existing manual, we refer to our standard detail sheets and we refer to the drawing number on those standard detail sheets here on sheet three of the city standard details. We refer that all fittings of show have restrained joints, mechanically restrained in addition to thrust blocks. We have updated our meters and meter can vaults information here. Here's the current minimum requirements for pipe and fitt ings, the different sizes, the materials, the mechanical the fittings, what type of in the pipe embedment there are trench that you can lay it in the thrust restraints and all here for the different pipes all the way up above, even including above 30 inch. We've updated our information on the acceptable meters. And the city provides those meters there, based on the taps in the requirements by the design engineer. These require vaults concrete vaults for meters larger than two inch, so that you can access them and be able to get in them and repair them or replace them. Here we indicate the mechanical, MEP, mechanical, electrical and plumbing engineers should identify the proposed sizes and location for the domestic water meters, fire connections and irrigation meters. We also provide the table from the group provide a table here for them from the 2012 International Plumbing Code so they can use that to size their meters. We also indicate down here. There's a table in here now that indicates what your work that your tap fee is going to be our impact fee I'm sorry. So this information is all updated here. Just simply requiring that water meters and cans and vaults be placed within the city right away. Some people think they can place it out outside the right away. Again references to the standard detail sheets. And here's the table from the International Plumbing Code meter size the distribution pipe size, the service pipe there from the main to the meter in the maximum development link there. It will show the minimum size of the water meter required for that. And there are several pages of that chart that one comes straight out of the International Plumbing Code. Then a sample. Jim what's WSF you mean now. I think of it as a service fixture unit. Okay. I think of it as if issues radio station. A table here that we asked that they prepare. We provide them a sample. We asked that they prepare this so that we can then tell they can tell and we can tell what their total fixture units for that development is planned to be that ties into the plumbing code. That fixture unit. It's it can be converted to a flow value for sizing. Here we've added added a table for the single family equivalents for the meter sizes and caution them that you know you don't really want to just go out and say well if a one inch meter would do me then I want a two inch meter so it'd be better. Well if that happens then you go from a one inch meter of two and a half times the standard impact fee for single family residents to eight times that impact fee, which becomes a three times as large of an impact fee. And some people don't realize that. And some way I have gotten this chart in between. The other chart. I thought the other one was fairly short there. And we get back beyond that. We indicate about high highway crossings. Contact the, we just say that caution them that sometimes our criteria is more stringent than the highway department there. Road crossings. Boring and jacking, tunneling, here requiring that all carrier pipes, that's the pipe inside the cased casing there, the jacked casing, the pipe inside is the carrier casing, the outside pipe is the casing itself. Commissioner Beck. Thank you chair. Yeah question on that. Okay. What have you got? Two different materials, you got the carrier pipe being one material and the casing being another material or can it both be the same material? Generally the carrier pipe is a steel pipe. And normally water line pipes are either ductile, PVC, or some other. These are water supply lines or wastewater? These are water, in this particular case this is water supply line here. And later in section four we get into wastewater. So why would you have a water supply line in casing? Because aren't in the casing in the event that something breaks you will not? Well most of the time the casing is used to get under a main road like University Boulevard. The state's not going to let us go out and cut University Boulevard anytime soon. It wouldn't be very smart to try to do it anyway with all that traffic. So you go and you would dig a pit on one side, jack and bore a casing underneath it. If it's for a 12 inch then it's probably going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of a 20 to 24 inch steel casing for a 12 inch line. You'd bore that underneath there and then slide the carrier pipe through it and then connect on the other side. And this requires here that they're going to be installed by the pipe manufacturers depending on whether it's PVC, ductile, or some other type. Whatever the pipe manufacturer recommends for that connections there, installation and connections. And that they're going to be supported with approved spac ers in the pipe. It's not going to sit right on the casing itself. And then if you depending on it we may pay extra. The city may decide to pay extra to have a larger casing and maybe it's a 12 inch pipe down. And then later we go to an 18 or something. Yes sir. You can do that without boring and casing in or digging up the roadway. Particularly on a railroad that's the only way they'll let you cross their track there. References to other sections here regarding air relief valves. Requiring valves on each side of the crossing there in case something happens to a crossing. Here we know about them and the local community knows about them but we have pressure zones in the city. Jim, we have four? Three. Three? Okay. Three different pressure zones in the city and all of that. When you connect between those it'll be maybe a higher pressure here and a lower pressure here in this area, geographic area. But when you connect between the two you have to have a pressure reducing valve there to be able to equalize the pressure. And keep from dropping the pressure and one or raising in the other. Because of the topography difference within town. And here's where we refer them to that requirement there. That it may require a pressure reducing valve depending on the situation. Again, references to the drawings and the standard details. Section on valves. I didn't, I could have, this is a typical thing that I would have shown as not having changed. Changing the word valving to valves. But I didn't in this case. This section, a more detailed section about the location of valves. Where we require those and where they need to be placed. More references to the drawings. Here's valve requirements, the types that we require for the different sizes. And the orientation and the types of operators there. Section on air release valves. In some cases for 12 inches and below we may not require an air release valve. If there's going to be a fire hydrant near there, the fire hydrant will be used for that. And depending if it's not a large difference, a large peak or a large hill that's going over. Air in water lines causes water hammer that you've noticed at your home when you turn off something. A faucet fast, it dun dun dun dun dun dun type thing. That's the water hammer from air in the water line there. It's annoying at the house and it could be costly if it breaks a line. If it's in a 24 inch transmission line or something or 18 inch water supply line, it can be really bad there and cause a lot of cost. Dead end mains, we prefer not to have dead end mains. Here we require fire hydrants at the end of those dead end mains. If a water line runs out in dead ends, if there are not a lot of services on that water line there, on that section of the water line, the dead end water line there, then that water can become stagnant over a period of time and become environmentally bad, if you will, biologically bad. So we require fire hydrants on the end of it there. We would discourage them, but if you have to have them. And then here's the fire hydrant location and coverage. Same thing that we had before, just in where I thought it seemed to fit better. And if I were looking for it, I would look here at a place under fire hydrant locations and coverage rather than at the other location. Requirements for abandoning water mains. Again, references to drawings there. We're asking, before it said that all valves that are being abandoned should be removed and delivered to us. Now we have changed that and said only valves 16 inches and larger. And here's the note here where I've taken out those water drawings and referred the person to those drawings in the old manual if they really want to look at those. It was just like 12 pages or 12 to 18 pages of drawings. Then we get into section four wastewater design guidelines. Updates of the references there. Updates. The old reference was to. I lost it now. It used to be TNRCC and that's the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality to their administrative rules there. And the old chart from the TNRCC criteria and the new chart that's been accepted from TCEQ's rules there and placed in this area. The old section on separation and spacing of sewer mains from water mains. Now TCEQ calls it separation distances between wastewater collection system pipes and manholes and public water supply pipes. Why? They just said separation of sewer lines from water lines. I don't know. I caution that we no longer allow the use of cast iron and these come straight out of this TCEQ rules and administrative rules there. And I think you, sir, you had a question earlier about the water main over or under the sewer line or something. Okay. Basically, I don't know why they take so many words to say it, but basically the requirement is nine feet of separation between the outside of the pipes there. And then if you can't get that, then these go into the different scenarios if your pipe, the sewer line's over or if it's under the water line or if it's closer to the water line, that it has to be both of them have to be pressure lines there so that there can't be any opportunity of the if the water line breaks or something there, then there can't be or has a crack in it. It can't pull in any of the wastewater leaking wastewater from the surrounding ground into the water system. And right. That's what I was talking about. Using a casing. But I thought it was only for wastewater lines, so it wouldn't contaminate underground water. That's what that reference was. Again, continuing on with that portion here. Size and slope of sewer. Here we require a minimum roughness coefficient of point zero one three. The lowest I've ever seen is like point zero one zero. So you're 300 soft. This is from the part title 30 Texas Administrative Code, the TCEQ chart summarizing some of the distances there. Minimum and maximum pipe slopes from the TCEQ. We've amended it. They have amended some of their requirements. The minimum slope and percent for six inch pipe is now zero point five zero percent and some of the other minor changes there. High velocity protection if the sewer line is very on a very steep grade, what to do to prevent it from displacing dislodging there. Again, we refer to drawing U 204 sheet seven of the city standard details to get them to the right location there. A change in name. Here we indicate what our minimum lateral sizes are sewer service sizes are for which for a single family for which for residential duplex and triplex and then six inch minimum for retail commercial like commercial etc. And that's going to depend on the flow of the fixture units that you saw earlier as to the size that it really needs to be gravity and force main sewer pipe material. You see that we have some pumping a few pumping stations throughout the city. Those are called force bands when you pump the sewage from that lift station over the hill to get back into a gravity sewer system there. Here's the update of the pipe material that we require now sewer pipe embedment trench manhole types that we accept cast in place precast with lin ers and the types of liners that we accept there. That we will allow sewer mainland clean out if the main line is less than 150 feet long from the last manhole. Talking about textiles utility accommodation zone. We text that doesn't give much room and the utility combination bone zone for all the other utilities, so we get for water and wastewater lines, we get separate easements outside of the text right away there. Yes sir. Commissioner Beck. Thank you chair on abandonment. How often do we leave the old sewer lines in there do it and do it for cost effective reasons. I'm sorry, leaving the old when we abandon a sewer line. Often do we just leave them in there and go on, we tend to pull them out most of the time. No sir, if the, if we're going to build a new line in the same trend. Third, because if there are services off of it, because you can connect the services easier there from both sides there . If we're going to reroute the sanitary sewer say, and leave it there, we'll take and we'll have a specific method of abandoning the manholes in it there taking the top off filling it with cement grout and plugging the pipe ends, but we leave the pipe there in those cases. Okay, in most cases, but it is more cost effective than leaving them in the ground. Yes sir. Of course, I had a sewer foreman sewer construction foreman one day that some time ago that I went out to him and said, Parmali, I'm sorry, but we figured out a better way to wrap the sewer line and we need you to dig this up and we need to slope it the other way. John no problem. They pay me just as much for digging it up as they do for to put it down. So, okay, I never thought of it that way. I think we've got a special treatment got some food sound like it's been delivered so you won't take a break and we'll get some food and we can continue just a real quick one. Yep, I got food now. Yeah. He says that six oh six and let's try to get back as quick as we can we still got a lot to get through. The coatings we require, and we've added the ability to use the coding systems that we show for precast manholes that we show on our design detail sheets, standard detail sheets . We don't have a detail for fence and gate configuration anymore. So that's been cut out. Here is a section out of TCQs current rules there about the volume of wet wells, and how you the requirement for sizing those are part of the requirement for sizing them during our for power outages. They're required to size them for at least 20 minutes or for the longest power outage on record for the past 60 months past five years. References again to the standard detail drawings in the standard detail sheets here for air release valves. Here's one of the major changes that we've made here. We had sections subsections for electrical requirements and for electronic requirements for lift stations. We don't very developments don't very often construct lift stations for their developments. Jim, an estimate of how often roughly they yield? In the development review, we may see a project that involves a public lift station once every couple years. So it's but I guess I would liken it to I buy the latest router and before I Wi-Fi router for my house and before I can get it connected to my computers, my printers and set up and connected my internet and all, they've come out with a new router that's got another class on it. It's gone from A, B, C, G, N, et cetera, et cetera. Now, no, that's the same way in electronics electrical for lift stations. They make quite a bit of advancements each year in those. So we decided that the best thing to do there is just keep a current one. And if someone needs to has a need for lift station, then we'll provide them the most current up to date one with the most current up to date equipment and electronics that we 're specifying in our that we're using in our lift stations that we build or or reconstruct ourselves. So that takes a number of here was the electronic requirements. Then we get into some general areas rights of way in eas ements. Their development will need to get a right away or an eas ement off their development outside their area of the plant to connect to an existing sewer line or water line. And these are the processes we've updated the process there in the names of the positions of the offices that handle that now. Basically, the city city legal department has prepared standard legal documents for easements and rights of ways for the different utilities there. We take and furnish those to the developer. They hire a land surveyor to write the legal description survey, the legal description, the easement, prepare the legal description and prepare a sketch of that. They put that document back together, give it to us. We review it, give it back to them and say, okay, go forth and do good things and acquire it. Now they bring it back to us in the city reviews it. And then we record it with them paying the recording fee for it. And that's all this does here. Then the city tech start in railroad companies will not accept a permit from a private enterprise. They want the permit to be from the utility owner so that in the future they've got leverage over the utility owner there and all. So we have to make all permit applications in the city's name for the development. And that's what this section does here. Here is an outdated form that our real estate people didn't even know existed anymore. We go in and explain to them about the text on permits and we refer them to somewhere here. We refer them to text us use of right away by others manual and give them the website even for that location of that manual there. And hope that text doesn't change it. A section for agenda plan revisions and change orders. Occ asionally the occasionally almost whenever project. There's some change necessary in the plans. Commissioner Beck. Yes, sir. When you get on the six one to. Yes. Yeah, right. No city projects. Yes, sir. It says the city's design engineer is not to attempt to contact contractors at any time concerning agenda plan rev isions of change or that just caught my eye. It seems rather rigid. Is there a reason why we don't want them to communicate at any level. We don't have something to do with the bidding process. Well, we want. We don't want them contacting the contractor directly about that or the contractor contacting the design engineer directly. And this really is. And more in our consultant engineers. We don't want it's not that we don't want them to talk and be involved in it. We want that contact coming through the city's representative, which is first on the ground, the construction inspector on the ground, then the city's project manager. And then if we decide that we need the design engineer consultant design engineer involved in it, we will involve them and bring them into the conversation. Otherwise, you get this contractor and the design consultant talking and the city has no idea. And then the contractors comes and says, oh, by the way, we had this problem out there and here's this $25,000 change order that I've worked out with your consultant. We say. So it's really to make sure the communications are flowing to the right people. It's not that we're trying to box off anybody there. And we tried to differentiate between city projects, what the process is for city projects and what it is for development projects there. The same thing with development projects. Then contractors should go through the inspector and the inspector should go back to development review and then to the development engineer for that. Again, here's change orders for development projects and for city projects. And we've changed our over the years we've changed the thresholds here for the change order approvals there. Distribution of modified plans change plans and specs or specs for city projects. Section on submittals material submittals and shop drawings submittals shop drawings being a engineering design fabrication thing and materials listing simply being a list of materials that contractor plans to use on this contract or this development. So we can check and make sure that it's an approved material, and we provide to the development engineer prior to the approval of the plans, a list of the approved materials in the manual here has a list of those approved materials. Shop drawings material shop drawings, at least we used to require five copies now we require one, preferably in electronic format. How the review will be performed. And how we will respond back with some little acceptable with minor exceptions accepted to middle, or it's rejected nonconformance of some middle. And then, in the old manual. There was a another section eight, which was called agenda plan revision and change orders, and another section nine, which was called submitt als, which was a duplication of the two that I've just gone over with you with slightly different wording, so we've combined those two are for in deleted eight and nine. Again, just like with the water drawings are taking the wastewater drawings, and they're all in the standard details now. In the old section 10 on site sewage facilities septic tanks, probably able to put that in parentheses here reference to the correct TCEQ administrative code and just the preference that should be understood but sometimes not that these people professional engineer or professional sanitarian who are doing the side evaluations and planning for the septic tank have to be licensed by the state of Texas. And then the city issues the permit for that septic tank. That was the water and wastewater manual. Other questions on it Commissioner Sullivan. Yes, sir. If after all this, the developer goes through all these 76 pages, or whatever it ends up being. And they say well I realized that a certain diameter of pipe is needed. I want to put in a smaller pipe because it 's more efficient for me cost wise. Is that ever allowed. He can make a case for that and submit a request for that exception if you will, it'll be evaluated based on his design engineers computations and all. And in some cases, may prove out to be that that smaller pipe is okay. All the hybrid flows and all the things y'all talked about in here that a different size pipe would produce the same results that's necessary and so that would be a reason to deviate from. What's written here, you can't just like Jennifer knows you can't write an ordinance that covers every situation development. That's why you folks are here and that's why we have the variance board. And all you can't write an ordinance or policies and procedures, or anything else that covers every situation. So there has to be some logic in there reason for it and if they can prove that that will work and won't. The city can maintain it and operate it just as efficiently as the other one then. Okay, thank you. Now that's going to take longer to get through that process than to get just like if you come to me with a brand new material of pipe that was not on our acceptable list is going to take longer to look at that and evaluate that and do research on it. Then for you to use this but if you really want to do that, then we'll take the time to check and see if it's might be acceptable. Exactly. Thank you. Appreciate your other questions on water and wastewater. I don't know that we're going to get to the next one. Due to time, we've got to get back at 630 so for those that are watching online it is available on our website the construction criteria manual. And I think it's announced earlier over the next 30 days, we're going to be looking for public comment on all of these and see what those are and y'all will be reviewing those comments and addressing them as best you can and if not then it'll come back to PNC for another go through. Is that correct. Yes sir. Okay for public hearings and all there. Great. John thank you for your presentation. Sorry we had a lot of questions and didn't get through all of it but apologize for being so slow but hope I've answered your questions adequately. Did a great job. Thank you. Thank you. And with that at 626 I'm going to close our work session and we'll reconvene at six there. Good evening and welcome to the city of Denton planning and zoning Commission meeting for July the 26. This meeting has been duly posted and we do have a quorum present and I'm gonna call us to order at 636. And our first order of business will be to stand and give the pledge the US and the Texas flag. To the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Honor the Texas flag. Our next order of business will be our consent agenda and the chair would entertain a motion. Commissioner Beck. I know we approve consent agenda. Commissioner Rossell. I second. Okay. We have a first and a second. Any discussion. Seeing none. We'll call for a vote on the board. Motion carries five to zero. And that will move us to our project matrix. Commissioner Beck. Yes, I just I'm curious. We've talked about this a couple times, but this thing's about a year old now. I'm just wondering what's delaying our new improved notification process. I've had concerns expressed about the failure of the signage that we wanted. We've made significant progress. We actually presented the notification procedures that the planning and zoning Commission recommended based on staff's presentation to them. It was a very fruitful conversation. One of the elements that we discussed was the postcard. We talked about notification of signs. We talked about certified mail where council was keen that we continue that process. And as a result, we've gone ahead and we've proceeded with issuing postcards and what have you. And we 've instituted the process. So do we have a date certain maybe because. A date. Just seems like we've talked about it a long time. We've implemented the process. Okay. So we've gone with the postcards. We've gone with the signage. We've gone with all those elements. What we can do is do a quick summary. I had a work session. We haven't done the signs yet. So on any new development then. Let's do this for the next PNC. We'll do a quick work session to bring everybody up to speed on where we are with the process. Thank you. Chair would ask a question on that. There is one. Do we want to do that now or do we want to wait a few weeks and when we get our new commissioners on maybe do that at that time. That seems to be always a point of discussion with new members. And it's one of the reasons why we've had a light load in terms of we're trying to make sure we have a full commission because it can compromise an applicant's zoning case, for example. So we're trying to keep the agendas as light as possible until we don't fill these two seats. Okay, so we're going to wait until we get a full commission . Is that what we're saying? If that's the wish of the PNC commission, yes. Do we have any idea when that may happen? We anticipate some nominations at the August 1st meeting. That was the discussion I had with the city secretary and based on that we'll see where we are. Okay. But I can't say anything. So we have names that have been up for nomination. No, the nominations will be made on August 1st. Okay. All right. Thanks, Manal. Any other items for the matrix? Okay, seeing none, I will close our meeting this evening at 640. Thank you, everyone.