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Commission meeting for March the 22nd 2017. This meeting

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has been duly posted and we have a quorum present and

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I will call our work session to order at

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434 and I will turn it over to Shandria for clarification

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of agenda items. Okay. Good evening.

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We have one item. Well, actually do we have any comments or

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questions about the minutes from March 8th?

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Okay

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For the consent agenda, we have one item. It's a final plat

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for Ryan Meadows if there's no questions or there is a

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question.

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Julie Wyatt up just in case. Okay. Thank you chair.

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Okay

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Concerned about the roadway access in this area. We've got

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the what is it Creekwood Drive.

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Now as this development is going up it'll eventually

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connect up there by Ryan Elementary, right?

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Yes. And on the north end then on the south end it'll

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connect to where Creekwood

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dead ends. Okay.

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This road though, it's a connector line. What is the right-

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of-way width for a connector there?

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Is this something that can be since this is the only main

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road for all these other feeder roads to get people out

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there?

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Would that be a double lane or a four lane or would it be a

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two lane with a center strike?

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Are you referring to Creekdale? Yes.

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Yes.

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Creekwood Drive.

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It's

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85 foot right away.

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It is 85 foot. That's what I'm saying. You know, I don't

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have engineering here to see just how that roads going to

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be designed.

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Okay. That's what I was curious about if we knew if that

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was going to be wide enough to handle, you know.

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Engineering has reviewed it and has released it to be so it

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does meet that that road right away with does meet the

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technical requirements in order to

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accommodate the traffic flow that is anticipated through

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development. So if I can run my roll down he could probably

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give me a better answer.

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Yes sir. Okay. Thank you. Sure.

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Commissioner Sullivan. Maybe I'm confused with another plat

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en.

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Doesn't isn't there going to be a Hickory Creek is going to

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be coming south of this or is it further south?

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When you were talking about that, you know, one of the few

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entrance and exits going into this division subdivision.

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Where is Hickory Creek coming in below? I thought it was.

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Earl Escobar just walked in. So I may call upon him.

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Let me pull up a map and then maybe we can look at it

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together if that's

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And we can see

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Earl we're talking about the Ryan Meadows Plat and they

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have questions regarding the design of Creekdale Drive.

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I'm going to make sure I'm getting in the right spot.

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Ryan Meadows is actually further to the west.

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So this is Ryan Meadows phase two to the south here and if

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I turn on the mobility plan, it should show Creekdale

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actually continuing further south and then to the east and

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connect to the existing portion, which is I believe

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somewhere in this area.

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Commissioner Sullivan is the red dot. Is that the proposed

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Hickory Creek? That should be so that you got some

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So you do have another out to the south of Creekdale coming

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down to the proposed Hickory Creek.

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Right over here. Change. Yeah. There's a feature collector

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that connects Creekdale to Hickory Creek Road.

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So that would relieve some of the pressure off of the

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traffic going on to Ryan Road or mainly going on to Ryan

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Road.

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And this outlet over here should already be existing. It is

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.

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So there is already an outlet that connects Creekdale to H

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ickory Creek.

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Just want to make sure I was thinking of the right area.

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That's all.

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Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair. Thanks for pointing

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that out.

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Commissioner Sullivan, I wasn't even aware that we were

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going to have that little jump in there, but that's

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futuristic.

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As this development gets done though, it will connect to

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Ryan, come down to Creekdale and hit a street there I can't

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think of that will bring it down to Hickory Creek.

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We can call it Larry Beck Boulevard.

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But we've got no idea when Hickory Creek is going to even

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be started doing.

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My question for you guys in here is how wide is Creekdale

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going to be? Is that going to be like a four lane or a two

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lane with a center turn?

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It'll be a two lane road with parking on either side. It's

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a residential collector.

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Okay. Considering it's a main road that will be pulling a

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lot of those people out there, I would have thought it

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would have been a little bit, it would have allowed for

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more traffic flow one time.

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But no, just two way would.

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We could strap it either way. It gives us flexibility

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depending on traffic volumes right now. The standard cross

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sections, two lanes, one lane in either direction with

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parking on the side.

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We'd also stripe it three lanes with a one lane in each

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direction with a turn lane, continuous turn lane.

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Okay. It's wide enough though where in the future if we

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need to, we could probably add another lane on each side

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then.

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If we need to.

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Okay. Thank you.

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Commissioner Sullivan.

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What's happening to Ryan Road? I mean during school

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mornings and afternoon, Ryan Road getting on to Country

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Club is a real disaster.

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And when you add all those houses right there, dump it into

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Ryan Road, is Ryan Road going to be widened at some point

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or when and what's the...

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There is no definite time frame for the widening of Ryan

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Road. It is slated to be a four lane divided roadway.

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We did apply for a signal at Ryan and FM 1830, Country Club

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.

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It was denied by TextDOT because it did not meet their war

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rants.

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And unfortunately TextDOT, in order to meet TextDOT war

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rants, it has to be based on actual traffic counts.

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So you really need, the development has to come first

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before the signal can...

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Create chaos.

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In order for it to then get solved.

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That's correct.

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Okay. Thank you.

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Any other questions for Julie on this item?

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Okay. Under public hearing, we have four items and I will

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note that two have been postponed until the April 12th

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meeting.

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And those are items B and C.

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Okay. And then items B and C under public hearing have been

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postponed until April 12th.

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And then I'll invite Haley Zagorski up to discuss item Z16

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28, which is a rezoning request for MSGSB Limited property

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owned by that group.

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Alright. Good evening. So this is case Z1628 for the Harris

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property.

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Alright. So the request was for us to hold a public hearing

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and consider a request for rezoning approximately a half

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acre from DR2 districts to a DCG.

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That's Downtown Commercial General.

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The property is located at 1604 West Hickory.

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It's currently developed with four duplexes.

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The two that you see on the back portion of the lot are

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connected by a breezeway carport there.

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And it's approximately 85 feet east of Avenue C to give you

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a little point of reference there.

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I want to point out some features in the area.

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There is currently multifamily to the north and the west of

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this property.

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That's across the street apartments and the lights

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apartment complexes.

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CVS is located there at the corner of Avenue B in Hickory.

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The two properties in between the subject property and CVS

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are actually owned by the same entity that owns the subject

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property.

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It's currently developed with the Jackson Chang apartment

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office and then they have a couple of residences next door

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that are used for multifamily as well.

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And then of course the UNT campus is located directly

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across Hickory Street.

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So currently this property is zoned Downtown Residential 2

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and the proposal is to rezone this to DCG.

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And as you can see there are two properties that adjoin

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this one to the east are currently zoned DCG.

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So their intent is to put all three properties under one

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zoning district to help facilitate future redevelopment.

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So the future land use designation for this property is

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neighborhood university compatibility area.

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As you're all probably familiar by now that is a

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designation applied to areas that adjoin our two university

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campuses to help transition from that campus

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and form and land use into the surrounding established

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neighborhoods.

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So you can see here this one like I said is directly across

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the street from UNT's campus.

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And that neighborhood university compatibility area extends

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pretty far to the north of this property before you get

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into those lower residential areas.

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So some of the considerations that staff looked at for this

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was that the rezoning is consistent with the surrounding

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zoning pattern.

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There's already a mix of DCG and DR2 within this block.

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And as I mentioned before the two adjoining properties that

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this owner currently has are already have the DCG zoning

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designation.

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This district is consistent with the future land use

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designation.

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The neighborhood university compatibility area calls for

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densities and services to be provided in close proximity to

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the college campuses to promote walkability in the area.

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And to give the area character and versatility.

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And as I mentioned previously this would consolidate the

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zoning designation for these three properties that are

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under the same ownership to allow for more cohesive future

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development under one set of zoning regulations.

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Another consideration is that this allowing this redevelop

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ment for denser use potentially in this area does promote

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transportation efficient design.

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And what that means is that it's providing resources and

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potentially housing in a close proximity to UNT that would

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then promote bicycle and pedestrian activity near this

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campus.

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And that in turn would limit students vehicle trips to and

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from campus.

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And eventually could limit parking in the surrounding

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neighborhoods by providing them areas to live and get the

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resources that they need close to campus.

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And just to give you some idea of how these two districts

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compare, DR2 has a maximum density of 30 dwelling units per

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acre.

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DCG would substantially increase that to 150.

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The lot coverage is fairly comparable.

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It would increase from 75% to 85%.

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And then decrease the landscaping from 25% to 15%.

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And this would allow for the building height on this parcel

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to increase from a maximum of 45 feet to a maximum of 100

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feet.

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Notices were sent for this case and we received no written

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responses.

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I did pass out the one response from the neighborhood

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meeting that was held back in February.

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And as you can see that person was neutral to this request.

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And with all that being said, staff recommends approval of

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this request because of its compatibility with the

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surrounding established zoning districts as well as its

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consistency with that future land use designation.

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And I can answer any questions.

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Commissioner Ellis.

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Thank you, Chair.

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Hi, Haley.

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I read in the backup that the subject property is not pl

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atted currently.

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I believe that's correct.

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And is the other property, is that platted, the other

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property that this person owns?

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I don't believe so.

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They expressed an intent to potentially plait the three

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lots together at some point in the future.

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Okay.

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And that's probably where my concern lies with this is repl

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atting it and then we're going to have a footprint for a gin

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ormous development request.

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So I do have concerns.

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Another question I have is where is the Frye District

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overlay and coming west?

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Let me see if we still have that map pulled up here.

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So let me turn off a few layers here and get us to the

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right area.

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Got a little bit of lag time here between the mouse and the

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computer.

259
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:36,840
All right.

260
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:38,840
So.

261
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:43,840
Should have a layer four.

262
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,070
Yeah, so looks like the Frye Street area goes up to Avenue

263
00:13:52,070 --> 00:13:52,840
B.

264
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,820
So it would not be, it would not count for this particular

265
00:13:56,820 --> 00:13:57,840
property?

266
00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:58,840
No.

267
00:13:58,840 --> 00:13:59,840
Okay.

268
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:00,840
Okay.

269
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:01,840
That was my fear.

270
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:02,840
Thank you.

271
00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:03,840
Commissioner Beck.

272
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:08,840
On that, what about West Oak Historical?

273
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:10,840
Where is it in coming from the west?

274
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:12,840
And West Oak is there in blue.

275
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:13,840
Okay.

276
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:14,840
Okay.

277
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,840
Is the applicant going to be here for this?

278
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:17,840
I believe so.

279
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:19,840
I believe he intends to be here for the hearing tonight.

280
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:20,840
I have a question too for him.

281
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,059
In the background material under site data points out one

282
00:14:26,059 --> 00:14:29,580
way secondary major arterial requires 66 feet of right of

283
00:14:29,580 --> 00:14:32,840
way and designed to accommodate approximately 10,000

284
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:33,840
vehicle trips per day.

285
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,519
And then it says West Hickory is not currently built to the

286
00:14:37,519 --> 00:14:39,840
second major arterial standard.

287
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,840
So what does this entail?

288
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,309
Are we going to have to widen that or add some things to it

289
00:14:45,309 --> 00:14:47,840
to get it up to speed?

290
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,200
And if so, does that mean this is going to affect Hickory

291
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,840
probably all the way from Carroll to Bonnie Bray?

292
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,080
I'll actually let Earl answer that question if he knows

293
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,840
future plans for Hickory.

294
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,840
Hickory and Oak Street are considered one way couplets.

295
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,480
It's basically two lanes for each roadway in each direction

296
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:14,840
.

297
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,840
Right now Hickory is a two lane roadway.

298
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,759
And so capacity wise you're really not going to increase

299
00:15:23,759 --> 00:15:27,840
any capacity into that since it's already two lanes.

300
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,639
So the maximum capacity for that roadway is about 10,000

301
00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:32,840
vehicles per day.

302
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,259
The additional right of way is going to be mainly for the

303
00:15:36,259 --> 00:15:38,840
parkway where your sidewalks are going to be located.

304
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,200
So that would bring Hickory then up to this secondary major

305
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:44,840
arterial standard.

306
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,840
Earl, do we have traffic counts for Hickory?

307
00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,840
I'm sorry?

308
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:01,840
Do we have traffic counts for Hickory?

309
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,059
Yes, there's currently about 6,000 vehicles on that roadway

310
00:16:06,059 --> 00:16:06,840
right now.

311
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,840
Okay. Yeah, it shouldn't increase that much.

312
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,200
But again, what has to be done here to bring it up to the

313
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,840
second major arterial standard?

314
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,490
If we're not there yet, it's indicating we're going to have

315
00:16:20,490 --> 00:16:20,840
to.

316
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,840
I'm just curious, what does that entail?

317
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,480
Well, when we say it's not actually a secondary major arter

318
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:28,840
ial.

319
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:33,960
A secondary major arterial is two lanes divided, four lanes

320
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,840
divided, two lanes in each direction.

321
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,840
And that's not going to be the case with Hickory.

322
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,460
Okay. Okay. So you're not saying it has to be brought up to

323
00:16:42,460 --> 00:16:42,840
that.

324
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,070
But I don't, just the fact that it even raised that

325
00:16:46,070 --> 00:16:48,840
indicated that we were going to have to make some changes

326
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:48,840
to Hickory.

327
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:49,840
But you're saying we don't.

328
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,360
Right. I think if you combine Hickory and Oak, it kind of

329
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,840
gives you the same concept as a secondary arterial.

330
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,450
Okay. With the two lanes in each direction with the block

331
00:16:59,450 --> 00:17:01,840
in between serving as your median.

332
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,009
That makes sense. And I'm assuming the speed limit will be

333
00:17:05,009 --> 00:17:05,839
unchanged.

334
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:09,390
Yeah. But the 66 foot right away right now, it's not

335
00:17:09,390 --> 00:17:12,839
currently 66. It's probably more in the neighborhood of 60.

336
00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:16,549
So that additional six feet is just accommodate a wider

337
00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:18,839
parkway for your sidewalk.

338
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:23,789
Okay. Do we know, let's maybe go back to, do we actually

339
00:17:23,789 --> 00:17:28,029
know the actual acreage of these, was it three parcels

340
00:17:28,029 --> 00:17:28,839
combined?

341
00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:31,839
Thank you, Earl.

342
00:17:31,839 --> 00:17:35,839
Do we have a full acre there?

343
00:17:35,839 --> 00:17:40,390
Let me see. I believe I have both, information for both of

344
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:41,839
their properties.

345
00:17:41,839 --> 00:17:46,400
So the subject property is 0.55 acres. The other two lots

346
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,839
are 0.68. So it would be just over an acre combined.

347
00:17:50,839 --> 00:17:53,839
Okay. Thank you.

348
00:17:53,839 --> 00:17:55,839
Commissioner Rossell.

349
00:17:55,839 --> 00:18:00,009
Thank you. Commissioner, back to some of my questions, but

350
00:18:00,009 --> 00:18:01,839
I wanted to follow up on one of them.

351
00:18:01,839 --> 00:18:06,579
Generally speaking, when we look at a rezoning like this,

352
00:18:06,579 --> 00:18:11,059
how does the current infrastructure in terms of traffic

353
00:18:11,059 --> 00:18:13,839
play into the process of approval?

354
00:18:13,839 --> 00:18:17,339
More thinking generally to help me out going forward, but

355
00:18:17,339 --> 00:18:20,549
also specifically here, where you have the potential for a

356
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:21,839
massive building to go in.

357
00:18:21,839 --> 00:18:27,250
City says the current street is not built to the standards

358
00:18:27,250 --> 00:18:31,839
in which the current street is supposed to be. Does that

359
00:18:31,839 --> 00:18:31,839
play into any hesitation in the approval process?

360
00:18:31,839 --> 00:18:35,430
Like if we had a gravel road there, but it was zoned DCG,

361
00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:38,839
would city be like, okay, well it needs to be this.

362
00:18:38,839 --> 00:18:42,440
And because it can be this, I just want to know how traffic

363
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,839
plays into the decision process, because it wasn't, it

364
00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:47,599
doesn't seem like it was a big enough deal to not be

365
00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:48,839
overcome in this situation.

366
00:18:48,839 --> 00:18:51,240
But there has to be a tipping point at some point where the

367
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,839
traffic's a real consideration.

368
00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:56,380
I'm wondering the thought process behind city staff in

369
00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:57,839
determining that.

370
00:18:57,839 --> 00:19:00,329
Well, Earl might be best suited to answer that. I know we

371
00:19:00,329 --> 00:19:03,700
do reserve the right to request a traffic impact analysis

372
00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:04,839
with each case.

373
00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:07,690
In this case, they weren't very specific in what their

374
00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:08,839
future intent is.

375
00:19:08,839 --> 00:19:13,450
So I think that played into why that wasn't done at this

376
00:19:13,450 --> 00:19:17,839
point, but I can let you speak more to Federal.

377
00:19:17,839 --> 00:19:22,900
Yeah, we've noticed over time lately that traffic has

378
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:26,839
become an issue for a zoning case.

379
00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:29,240
And so now what we've done is started to require a traffic

380
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:29,839
analysis.

381
00:19:29,839 --> 00:19:34,529
If the area that they're trying to rezone is a, I guess a

382
00:19:34,529 --> 00:19:38,839
sensitive area in terms of traffic, unfortunately.

383
00:19:38,839 --> 00:19:42,839
But this one, it's already currently developed.

384
00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:48,119
And so depending on, and it's really speculative. They don

385
00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,029
't even know what they're wanting to put in there based on

386
00:19:50,029 --> 00:19:50,839
their narrative.

387
00:19:50,839 --> 00:19:53,549
So the traffic study comes in when there's actually some

388
00:19:53,549 --> 00:19:55,839
plans drawn from potential construction?

389
00:19:55,839 --> 00:19:56,839
Right.

390
00:19:56,839 --> 00:19:57,839
Okay.

391
00:19:57,839 --> 00:20:00,349
Because we don't know if they were going to combine this

392
00:20:00,349 --> 00:20:03,029
lot with the lots adjacent to it and make it one big lot,

393
00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:05,349
or is it, they were just going to develop as individual

394
00:20:05,349 --> 00:20:05,839
lots.

395
00:20:05,839 --> 00:20:10,059
So that's why we couldn't really pinpoint a traffic study

396
00:20:10,059 --> 00:20:12,839
to determine if this was feasible.

397
00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:15,839
That makes sense. I think that's all I might have for you.

398
00:20:15,839 --> 00:20:18,839
But I have one more question regarding the project.

399
00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:24,480
Because of the zoning across the street, would the

400
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,259
potential project on a DCG in this specific area have any

401
00:20:28,259 --> 00:20:30,839
residential slope requirements?

402
00:20:30,839 --> 00:20:31,839
The residential proximity slope?

403
00:20:31,839 --> 00:20:32,839
Yeah.

404
00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:36,069
No, so that's dependent on the adjoining properties. And in

405
00:20:36,069 --> 00:20:38,490
this case, they have multifamilies surrounding them to the

406
00:20:38,490 --> 00:20:41,259
north and the west and then the university across the

407
00:20:41,259 --> 00:20:41,839
street.

408
00:20:41,839 --> 00:20:44,980
So at this point, it doesn't look like that would apply. If

409
00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:48,640
there was a single family residence on any surrounding side

410
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,980
, then that could come into play. But it doesn't look like

411
00:20:50,980 --> 00:20:51,839
it would here.

412
00:20:51,839 --> 00:20:52,839
Okay. Thank you.

413
00:20:52,839 --> 00:20:57,380
We'll follow up on the traffic. Since we've done the

414
00:20:57,380 --> 00:21:02,119
traffic impact fees now, the burden for the streets now

415
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:07,230
pretty much shifts to the city and they pay the fee versus

416
00:21:07,230 --> 00:21:11,069
the old way of if the road is not improved in your site,

417
00:21:11,069 --> 00:21:12,839
you're doing perimeter street paving.

418
00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:17,289
That has gone away now with the traffic impact. Is that

419
00:21:17,289 --> 00:21:20,839
correct or is that not exactly how that works anymore?

420
00:21:20,839 --> 00:21:26,119
It depends. If the development is going to create such a

421
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,769
negative impact on our existing road infrastructure, they

422
00:21:30,769 --> 00:21:33,839
should actually mitigate for that.

423
00:21:33,839 --> 00:21:36,990
And now whether or not they'll be eligible for credit just

424
00:21:36,990 --> 00:21:39,839
depends on what those mitigation measures are.

425
00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:42,240
On deals like this, it shouldn't be. That's going to be

426
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,710
like razor ranch and large projects like this, not smaller

427
00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:48,839
infield type projects.

428
00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:51,910
And we have a clause in our ordinance as well with infield

429
00:21:51,910 --> 00:21:55,440
developments that if they're not proposing a development

430
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,839
that's 10 times greater than the previous use.

431
00:21:58,839 --> 00:22:01,349
I don't know what the current use is now. It is currently

432
00:22:01,349 --> 00:22:04,150
developed. But as long as they're within that 10 times

433
00:22:04,150 --> 00:22:06,789
threshold, then they wouldn't be subject to road impact

434
00:22:06,789 --> 00:22:08,839
fees to help promote infield development.

435
00:22:08,839 --> 00:22:13,599
Do we have any general guidelines, say for instance the

436
00:22:13,599 --> 00:22:17,869
road just physically can't handle traffic such as

437
00:22:17,869 --> 00:22:22,839
Commissioner Roselle's example, or the roads not there yet,

438
00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:25,839
what are our criteria in those cases?

439
00:22:25,839 --> 00:22:30,190
Because you can't really pay into a fund to get access if

440
00:22:30,190 --> 00:22:31,839
it doesn't exist.

441
00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:35,690
Well, if the roads not there, they have to build that road.

442
00:22:35,690 --> 00:22:39,089
And so, and then they would be eligible for those right

443
00:22:39,089 --> 00:22:42,039
away credits if it's in our either on our mobility plan or

444
00:22:42,039 --> 00:22:44,839
if it's in our roadway CIP plan.

445
00:22:44,839 --> 00:22:45,839
Okay.

446
00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:48,839
Commissioner Sullivan.

447
00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:52,839
I guess that this is a disframatification.

448
00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:57,200
How are we to vote on changing the zoning if we don't know

449
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,839
what the plans are to go there?

450
00:22:59,839 --> 00:23:06,309
I mean, I kind of see this as a game of Pac-Man where we're

451
00:23:06,309 --> 00:23:10,769
starting to chomp away and pretty soon we're coming up to

452
00:23:10,769 --> 00:23:15,869
next door to the historic district, and we've got 110 foot

453
00:23:15,869 --> 00:23:20,829
structure going to be built and everybody's going to say,

454
00:23:20,829 --> 00:23:21,839
why don't y'all do that?

455
00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:29,839
Well, that's sort of the nature of zoning. It requires a

456
00:23:29,839 --> 00:23:29,839
little bit of, I guess, foresight.

457
00:23:29,839 --> 00:23:33,339
And the way you were basically zone in the dirt, not the

458
00:23:33,339 --> 00:23:36,839
use. So we're thinking about what could go in that spot and

459
00:23:36,839 --> 00:23:39,839
if, if what could go in that spot will work or not.

460
00:23:39,839 --> 00:23:43,400
And so those are the questions that you would need to ask

461
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,279
yourself what's possible under the zoning that you allow to

462
00:23:47,279 --> 00:23:50,920
go in this space to be built in those are the questions you

463
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,839
would have to weigh as a commissioner.

464
00:23:53,839 --> 00:23:55,839
Thank you.

465
00:23:55,839 --> 00:24:09,940
If I could jump in real fast. Thank you. To Commissioner

466
00:24:09,940 --> 00:24:10,269
Sullivan's point, early on that was a contention I had and

467
00:24:10,269 --> 00:24:10,619
Commissioner Taylor really helped out in helping me through

468
00:24:10,619 --> 00:24:11,089
that. It often convolutes the zoning case and we actually

469
00:24:11,089 --> 00:24:11,359
know what the applicant is because then we think, okay,

470
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:11,619
well it's just going to be an apartment complex, let's

471
00:24:11,619 --> 00:24:14,539
approve it, but they could just flip it, sell it, put a

472
00:24:14,539 --> 00:24:15,839
movie theater in or something like that.

473
00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:19,240
So it's, it's ideal, in my opinion, not to know what the

474
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,730
specific use case use case could be. So when we look at all

475
00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:26,450
these possible potentials we actually think through, which

476
00:24:26,450 --> 00:24:29,839
should these be any of these should be in this area.

477
00:24:29,839 --> 00:24:33,539
So it's helpful to actually bifurcate those out completely.

478
00:24:33,539 --> 00:24:36,910
So we're looking at zoning, we shouldn't shouldn't take

479
00:24:36,910 --> 00:24:40,410
into consideration what someone's saying they might build

480
00:24:40,410 --> 00:24:43,420
because they could sell the property they can build

481
00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:45,839
whatever they want once it's zoned. So it has to be taken

482
00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:45,839
independent of the actual potential use being built.

483
00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:47,839
Thank you.

484
00:24:47,839 --> 00:24:52,190
Commissioner Ellis. Thank you Chair and just to piggyback

485
00:24:52,190 --> 00:24:55,880
further on that, that is my concern with this, just to put

486
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,640
food for thought, they can replat all of these that they

487
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,839
own once this is done and they can sell it.

488
00:25:02,839 --> 00:25:06,630
And we could be having an issue that we've had on multiple

489
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:09,880
occasions already in this area with a large scale

490
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,839
development, high density large scale development.

491
00:25:13,839 --> 00:25:16,559
So that's where my concerns lie with this because we never

492
00:25:16,559 --> 00:25:19,109
know changing zoning what it's going to be even even if

493
00:25:19,109 --> 00:25:21,839
they come to us and say this is what we're going to do.

494
00:25:21,839 --> 00:25:27,359
I mean, it's not tied together so it helps I guess yes to

495
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,720
your point not to know but at the same point we need to

496
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,559
consider really what all that could all that it could be in

497
00:25:34,559 --> 00:25:36,839
doing want all that it could be.

498
00:25:36,839 --> 00:25:43,839
So thank you.

499
00:25:43,839 --> 00:25:47,839
Any other questions for highly.

500
00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:50,839
Thank you.

501
00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:56,450
So the final item under public hearing is development code

502
00:25:56,450 --> 00:26:02,509
amendment related to multifamily dwellings, and I'll invite

503
00:26:02,509 --> 00:26:05,839
run the Gita up for a presentation.

504
00:26:05,839 --> 00:26:09,839
Later this evening.

505
00:26:09,839 --> 00:26:11,839
Thank you Chair members of the Commission members of staff.

506
00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:15,529
This is a great segue on the discussion that we just had a

507
00:26:15,529 --> 00:26:16,839
few seconds ago.

508
00:26:16,839 --> 00:26:21,589
The item that we have today is a consideration for a sup

509
00:26:21,589 --> 00:26:25,839
requirement for zoning districts D.

510
00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:28,839
Are to DCN and DCG.

511
00:26:28,839 --> 00:26:33,940
The code amendment is to add a specific use permit to these

512
00:26:33,940 --> 00:26:39,839
zoning districts when multifamily development is proposed.

513
00:26:39,839 --> 00:26:43,009
So for definition purposes or the definition for multif

514
00:26:43,009 --> 00:26:46,240
amily is a structure that contains three or more dwelling

515
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,839
units so any development.

516
00:26:47,839 --> 00:26:51,539
That has three or more units on a single lot would qualify

517
00:26:51,539 --> 00:26:55,119
as a multifamily development and if that is proposed say a

518
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,039
fourplex they would fall under this requirement for a

519
00:26:58,039 --> 00:26:59,839
specific use permit as well.

520
00:26:59,839 --> 00:27:03,549
So just to clarify and define what multifamily is it could

521
00:27:03,549 --> 00:27:06,839
be a four unit it could be a hundred unit it could be

522
00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:09,839
whatever as long as it's more than three.

523
00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:12,839
Three or more.

524
00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:15,839
For your for the DC.

525
00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:20,839
These are the zoning districts that permit multifamily.

526
00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:25,839
Either with a sup or with a limitation.

527
00:27:25,839 --> 00:27:32,490
You see here on this side here it's listed up what an RC

528
00:27:32,490 --> 00:27:36,839
and an RMU 12 DC and DCG and so forth.

529
00:27:36,839 --> 00:27:39,740
The three that we're going to be focusing on or is under

530
00:27:39,740 --> 00:27:42,839
consideration is are these three zoning districts here.

531
00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:48,509
And currently these are the only three zoning districts

532
00:27:48,509 --> 00:27:54,299
that don't require a either an sup or the limitations that

533
00:27:54,299 --> 00:27:56,839
you see here L4 or L6.

534
00:27:56,839 --> 00:28:02,740
L4 requires that a multifamily be permitted with either the

535
00:28:02,740 --> 00:28:07,900
following if they fall under the following five criteria or

536
00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:09,839
five categories here.

537
00:28:09,839 --> 00:28:14,349
If they obtain a specific use permit are part of a mixed

538
00:28:14,349 --> 00:28:19,029
use development or as part of a massive plan development

539
00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:19,839
existing.

540
00:28:19,839 --> 00:28:24,539
If it was received if they received a development approval

541
00:28:24,539 --> 00:28:29,400
back prior to 2005 and also if it's part of a small area

542
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:29,839
plan.

543
00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:35,099
So if they meet any of those then they meet the limitation

544
00:28:35,099 --> 00:28:35,839
of L4.

545
00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:40,680
L5 for the three that we see here limitation there is

546
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,839
related to density.

547
00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:46,329
So what it states here is that within this district the

548
00:28:46,329 --> 00:28:50,049
density of an apartment will calculate as one bedroom equ

549
00:28:50,049 --> 00:28:51,839
ating to half the unit.

550
00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:56,059
So for example if there is a four bedroom unit that unit

551
00:28:56,059 --> 00:29:00,019
actually equates to two units because each bedroom is half

552
00:29:00,019 --> 00:29:00,839
a unit.

553
00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:04,839
So that's the limitation.

554
00:29:04,839 --> 00:29:09,200
Limit number six, limitation number six states that if a

555
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,470
proposed multifamily is proposed in any of these zoning

556
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:15,839
districts that have a L6 associated with it.

557
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:22,160
Must have a non-residential use on the ground floor if it

558
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,839
is along an avenue collector or an arterial street.

559
00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:28,839
Otherwise it would not be permitted.

560
00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:33,329
So those are the limitations under each of these zoning

561
00:29:33,329 --> 00:29:36,839
districts that allow for multifamily.

562
00:29:36,839 --> 00:29:40,839
So before I move on does anybody have any questions related

563
00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:47,559
to the requirements or the need for multifamily as it falls

564
00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:49,839
under these zoning districts?

565
00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:50,839
Commissioner Beck.

566
00:29:50,839 --> 00:29:51,839
Thank you Chair.

567
00:29:51,839 --> 00:29:57,789
So for clarification then L6 you can't build multifamily on

568
00:29:57,789 --> 00:29:59,839
the ground level. It's got to be above a commercial.

569
00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:05,109
Correct. As long as it falls or is along an arterial

570
00:30:05,109 --> 00:30:08,839
collector and an avenue street.

571
00:30:08,839 --> 00:30:15,839
Okay thanks.

572
00:30:15,839 --> 00:30:18,839
Commissioner Hitchwith.

573
00:30:18,839 --> 00:30:23,059
Are those, let's see so we have office, retail and

574
00:30:23,059 --> 00:30:23,839
commercial.

575
00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:27,460
Is there a working definition tied to the document in and

576
00:30:27,460 --> 00:30:31,210
of itself somewhere or does someone make a judgment call on

577
00:30:31,210 --> 00:30:31,839
those?

578
00:30:31,839 --> 00:30:33,839
As well as, yes.

579
00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:39,829
So like last week we had a conversation, I say last week,

580
00:30:39,829 --> 00:30:45,960
last week a conversation about single home, I mean single

581
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,599
family, multifamily. So who makes those kind of decisions

582
00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:50,839
if it's iffy on a commercial or if it's iffy on retail.

583
00:30:50,839 --> 00:30:52,839
Who kind of is the tiebreaker?

584
00:30:52,839 --> 00:30:56,299
Well the DRC administrator and ultimately the planning

585
00:30:56,299 --> 00:30:59,839
director can make those determinations as far as the type

586
00:30:59,839 --> 00:31:00,839
of use it is.

587
00:31:00,839 --> 00:31:04,170
Typically if it's non-residential in the sense it falls

588
00:31:04,170 --> 00:31:07,839
under the commercial land use categories, then those will

589
00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:09,839
qualify as commercial uses.

590
00:31:09,839 --> 00:31:13,940
And we also have definitions in the DDC that explain what

591
00:31:13,940 --> 00:31:15,839
each of the uses entail.

592
00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:16,839
Office, retail.

593
00:31:16,839 --> 00:31:19,839
But then development code.

594
00:31:19,839 --> 00:31:21,839
I have a question.

595
00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:24,839
Rather than a question I'll say maybe an observation.

596
00:31:24,839 --> 00:31:30,430
The criteria that we have L4 through 6, those three design

597
00:31:30,430 --> 00:31:35,759
ations, DR2, N and G, effectively those are the only three z

598
00:31:35,759 --> 00:31:39,839
onings that you can by right go build multifamily in.

599
00:31:39,839 --> 00:31:40,839
Correct.

600
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:42,839
Or as, yes.

601
00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:46,940
Or if they will use L4 as an example, if it's a mixed use

602
00:31:46,940 --> 00:31:47,839
then yes.

603
00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:50,839
But if it's plainly multifamily you are correct.

604
00:31:50,839 --> 00:31:52,839
That's the only three that were permitted by right.

605
00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:56,740
But currently if you're going to do multifamily outside

606
00:31:56,740 --> 00:32:00,839
those three zones, you have to fit the box with review.

607
00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:03,259
Those three are the only ones that if somebody buys

608
00:32:03,259 --> 00:32:06,000
properties that I want to build an apartment unit and it's

609
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,839
zoned that way and it's in a small area plan I can go out

610
00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:12,210
and start building apartments and I don't have to have go

611
00:32:12,210 --> 00:32:14,839
through all of the.

612
00:32:14,839 --> 00:32:16,839
Public hearings or what not.

613
00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:17,839
Stuff.

614
00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:21,230
Just to clarify that, the other thing is obviously to

615
00:32:21,230 --> 00:32:24,839
comply with the L5 which is the density limitation.

616
00:32:24,839 --> 00:32:26,839
But other than that, you're correct.

617
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:30,839
It would be permitted by right.

618
00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:31,839
Thank you.

619
00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:35,289
That's all I'm going to make at this point and go on with

620
00:32:35,289 --> 00:32:36,839
your presentation.

621
00:32:36,839 --> 00:32:40,859
So just to give a little bit more background on multifamily

622
00:32:40,859 --> 00:32:45,049
and specifically these three zoning districts, what would

623
00:32:45,049 --> 00:32:49,089
be required and what the requirements are in regards to set

624
00:32:49,089 --> 00:32:53,839
backs, maximum building heights, and maximum lock coverage.

625
00:32:53,839 --> 00:32:59,839
As we continue to discuss these proposals for multifamily,

626
00:32:59,839 --> 00:33:02,599
we often ask ourselves, well what's the height limit, right

627
00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:02,839
?

628
00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:07,950
And so DCG, we'll use that as an example, DCG has a 100

629
00:33:07,950 --> 00:33:10,839
feet maximum building height.

630
00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:18,839
It requires up to or requires up to 85% lock coverage.

631
00:33:18,839 --> 00:33:22,839
As far as setbacks, there are none.

632
00:33:22,839 --> 00:33:26,759
However, we know that the fire department requires certain

633
00:33:26,759 --> 00:33:30,839
setbacks if it's adjacent to a fence or another structure.

634
00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:35,230
So these are the regulations that we look at when we review

635
00:33:35,230 --> 00:33:39,900
a multifamily development that comes in, again, under the

636
00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:40,839
DR2, DCG.

637
00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:41,839
Commissioner Beck.

638
00:33:41,839 --> 00:33:42,839
Thank you, Chair.

639
00:33:42,839 --> 00:33:46,130
Just, and I should know this, just for clarification, we're

640
00:33:46,130 --> 00:33:47,839
talking about lock coverage.

641
00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:50,930
We're talking about what that building is going to be

642
00:33:50,930 --> 00:33:51,839
sitting on.

643
00:33:51,839 --> 00:33:52,839
Right.

644
00:33:52,839 --> 00:33:56,349
Yes, the way we define lock coverage is just at

645
00:33:56,349 --> 00:34:00,839
Commissioner Beck, but also any impervious material.

646
00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:02,839
So the driveways would count as lock coverage.

647
00:34:02,839 --> 00:34:03,839
Okay.

648
00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:04,839
And parking.

649
00:34:04,839 --> 00:34:05,839
Okay.

650
00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:06,839
Right.

651
00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:10,550
So would I be right in saying that the more, the greater

652
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:13,840
the lock coverage, the higher the density?

653
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,840
Is that what those two fit?

654
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,869
Technically, you can, yeah, you can build more with the

655
00:34:18,869 --> 00:34:19,840
higher lock coverage.

656
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,840
Okay, thank you.

657
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,539
We also have design standards, which is in sub-chapter 3513

658
00:34:27,539 --> 00:34:27,840
.

659
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,389
Again, another set of provisions that we look at when we

660
00:34:31,389 --> 00:34:33,840
review developments of multifamily.

661
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,659
And you all have seen this proximity slope, but in that

662
00:34:38,659 --> 00:34:42,840
section it also includes orientation, building materials,

663
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,840
open space requirements, architectural requirements, and

664
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,840
any other.

665
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,949
If it belongs, or it's within a special overlay district,

666
00:34:51,949 --> 00:34:54,929
those will also have additional criteria or additional

667
00:34:54,929 --> 00:34:55,840
standards.

668
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,500
But generally, if a development comes in for multifamily,

669
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:05,840
these site design standards are under the section 3513.

670
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,840
Parking.

671
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,840
This is the ratio required.

672
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,289
You see we've got different categories for dwelling units,

673
00:35:15,289 --> 00:35:19,840
and efficient, which is defined as 600 square feet or less.

674
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,840
And that is 1.25 per unit.

675
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,900
If it is a one bedroom or an efficiency that's over 600,

676
00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:30,840
they're required to provide 1.5 space per unit.

677
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,840
Two bedroom is 1.75.

678
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,840
Three bedrooms is two spaces.

679
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,840
Four bedrooms would be one per bedroom.

680
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,409
And then a retirement or senior living facility would be

681
00:35:43,409 --> 00:35:44,840
one space per unit.

682
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,059
So again, these are what we look at when we review a multif

683
00:35:49,059 --> 00:35:52,840
amily development that comes in for development.

684
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,840
Commissioner Sullivan.

685
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,840
Where do the infamous SROs stand in this diagram?

686
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,840
Good question.

687
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,199
SROs, we do not have a separate use that's classified or

688
00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:06,840
categorized as SROs.

689
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,840
We categorize them as multifamily at this point.

690
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,840
So they would fall under multifamily.

691
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,840
But I mean, would it be one and a quarter space per unit or

692
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:18,840
?

693
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,840
It would depend on how many bedrooms they are proposing.

694
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,429
Again, if they have three bedrooms, they would be required

695
00:36:25,429 --> 00:36:26,840
two parking spaces.

696
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,840
If they were four unit, a four bedroom unit, then they

697
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,840
would require one space per bedroom.

698
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,199
So they would fall under the same requirements that you see

699
00:36:38,199 --> 00:36:38,840
here.

700
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:39,840
Okay, thank you.

701
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:40,840
Commissioner Rizal.

702
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,840
Just so I'm, excuse me, clear.

703
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,400
A three bedroom unit, that's a three bedroom unit is one

704
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:46,840
unit?

705
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,840
Correct, with three bedrooms.

706
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,079
So if an apartment has three bedrooms, the requirement is

707
00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:54,840
two spaces per that one apartment door.

708
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:55,840
Correct.

709
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,130
But if it's a four bedroom unit, you have to have four

710
00:36:59,130 --> 00:36:59,840
spaces.

711
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,840
Correct.

712
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:08,960
I'm wondering why the difference, because on one it's two

713
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,840
thirds per bedroom and then it jumps up to one per bedroom.

714
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:13,840
And it's the only one that has a per bedroom.

715
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:14,840
Can you help me out with that?

716
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,920
Yeah, I think going back, I'm sure there was a code

717
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:18,840
amendment.

718
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,840
I'm not 100% sure exactly when that was.

719
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,199
But I think that was to address the four bedroom units that

720
00:37:26,199 --> 00:37:30,059
were being developed in primarily student housing, I'm

721
00:37:30,059 --> 00:37:30,840
guessing, on that.

722
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,449
And that's why that required up the parking requirements

723
00:37:34,449 --> 00:37:36,840
for that particular type of unit.

724
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,840
Okay.

725
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,840
Yeah.

726
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:44,840
Commissioner Ellis.

727
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:45,840
Thank you, Chair.

728
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,409
Going back to you answering Commissioner Sullivan with

729
00:37:48,409 --> 00:37:50,840
regard to the collegiate type housing projects.

730
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:55,190
So you're saying like in their typical development, let's

731
00:37:55,190 --> 00:37:57,300
say it would be like a four quad with the living in the

732
00:37:57,300 --> 00:37:57,840
center.

733
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:58,840
Right.

734
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,159
So that would be treated as a four bedroom, right, needing

735
00:38:01,159 --> 00:38:02,840
four spaces for that particular unit.

736
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:07,199
Yes, we treat them the same as a multifamily and the

737
00:38:07,199 --> 00:38:11,840
bedroom count is transferred as well to this ratio.

738
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:12,840
Okay.

739
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:13,840
Yes.

740
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:19,840
Thanks.

741
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,900
Just real quick, I know you have this in your backup, I

742
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:24,190
just wanted to go over really quick and maybe potentially

743
00:38:24,190 --> 00:38:25,840
answer any questions that you may have.

744
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,579
We do have a section in the DDC that's specific to specific

745
00:38:29,579 --> 00:38:30,840
use permits.

746
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,840
It discusses the procedures.

747
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,440
It goes through the planning and zoning and then ultimately

748
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,840
to city council for their approval.

749
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:40,840
It is approved by ordinance.

750
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,190
There's an approval criteria that lists compatibility,

751
00:38:45,190 --> 00:38:48,789
capacity levels, and all the good things that need to be in

752
00:38:48,789 --> 00:38:49,840
conformance.

753
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,840
It also has submittal requirements.

754
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:58,539
Typically we request a site plan if applicable, a landscape

755
00:38:58,539 --> 00:39:01,840
plan and/or elevations as well.

756
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,440
With that, we can, when I say we, the staff, the planning,

757
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,840
zoning commission, and city council can also impose

758
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:09,840
conditions to make,

759
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,570
to ensure that the proposed use conforms with the approval

760
00:39:14,570 --> 00:39:17,840
criteria that's stated in this section.

761
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,809
And ultimately if it is approved and there is a change in

762
00:39:21,809 --> 00:39:26,170
the site plan or the conditions that were approved by city

763
00:39:26,170 --> 00:39:26,840
council,

764
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,360
it would have to go back to the same process as it was

765
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,579
approved and that being planning the zoning commission and

766
00:39:34,579 --> 00:39:35,840
city council.

767
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:36,840
Commissioner Ellis.

768
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:37,840
Thank you, Chair.

769
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,179
Ron, when I was reading through this particular section in

770
00:39:41,179 --> 00:39:43,840
the code, it mentioned the word approval authority.

771
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,840
I assume that's city council, right?

772
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,239
They're making the final decision as it runs through the

773
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,840
process, but they're the approval authority on an SUP.

774
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:51,840
Is that correct?

775
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:51,840
Correct.

776
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:51,840
Okay.

777
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:52,840
Thank you.

778
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:53,840
Yes.

779
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,550
Ultimately the city council approves the SUPs through

780
00:39:58,550 --> 00:39:59,840
ordinance.

781
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:04,760
So with all that, we're here again to propose a code

782
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:10,349
amendment to add a specific use permit for the three zoning

783
00:40:10,349 --> 00:40:10,840
districts,

784
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,190
as was pointed out earlier, don't require a specific use

785
00:40:15,190 --> 00:40:16,840
permit at this moment.

786
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:22,840
The three zoning districts are the DR2, DCN, and DCG.

787
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,539
And how we came to that is you see here in the urban core

788
00:40:27,539 --> 00:40:29,840
that's shown on this map,

789
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:36,639
the majority of the zoning districts that are adjacent to

790
00:40:36,639 --> 00:40:41,710
our established neighborhoods, our historic districts, and

791
00:40:41,710 --> 00:40:43,840
our special overlay districts,

792
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:49,360
but these zoning districts in the form of either the DR2,

793
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:50,840
DCN, or DCG.

794
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,639
And staff's recommendation is that we add this specific use

795
00:40:55,639 --> 00:41:01,349
permit to provide that additional analytical tool to bring

796
00:41:01,349 --> 00:41:01,840
forward,

797
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,630
not only with the applicant and discuss what we can do to

798
00:41:05,630 --> 00:41:07,840
address any potential impacts,

799
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,780
also but to the planning zoning commission and ultimately

800
00:41:10,780 --> 00:41:11,840
city council as well,

801
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,199
to identify what mitigation or conditions we can use to

802
00:41:16,199 --> 00:41:18,840
minimize those potential impacts.

803
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,440
And that could be the height of the building if it is too

804
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,840
high for that particular area, and so on and so forth.

805
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,840
There's a number of conditions that can be placed.

806
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,550
And this is really the tool that can be used to address

807
00:41:33,550 --> 00:41:35,840
those concerns that we have.

808
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,360
And when I say we, I say that in general, the citizens, the

809
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,840
planning zoning commissions, and the city council.

810
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:49,489
Ultimately, there are options to provide other requirements

811
00:41:49,489 --> 00:41:49,840
.

812
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,389
Again, I said parking, building height, and we can also

813
00:41:53,389 --> 00:41:57,789
talk about sustainability in the form of some specific site

814
00:41:57,789 --> 00:41:59,840
design requirements.

815
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:06,489
So all those can be folded in to the approval of a specific

816
00:42:06,489 --> 00:42:09,840
use permit as a condition.

817
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,840
I kind of went over this already briefly.

818
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,599
The staff obviously is bringing this forward and we're

819
00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:19,650
recommending approval as the specific use permit will serve

820
00:42:19,650 --> 00:42:22,840
as an analytical tool

821
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:27,199
to review land use as far as massing and scale to

822
00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:31,199
surrounding areas, surrounding properties, to address

823
00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:31,840
compatibility.

824
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,369
And again, it's consistent to our comprehensive plan in the

825
00:42:36,369 --> 00:42:40,119
form that it is within the compatibility area, the

826
00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:42,840
neighborhood university compatibility area.

827
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:48,070
And it's in this area that we feel that we really need

828
00:42:48,070 --> 00:42:53,079
another level of review, and that is through a specific use

829
00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:53,840
permit.

830
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,840
So with that, that concludes my presentation.

831
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:58,840
I'll be happy to answer any further questions.

832
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,840
>> Commissioner Ellis.

833
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:01,840
>> Thank you, Chair.

834
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,840
Okay, Ron, so how did we get here?

835
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,760
I have a feeling like from what I understand, this started

836
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,840
because we wanted a definition,

837
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,840
or council wanted a definition, or the city as a whole

838
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,840
wanted a definition for SRO collegiate housing.

839
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,840
How did we go from there to here?

840
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,960
Was it just too hard to define and put into another, I

841
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,840
guess, code requirements for that type of development?

842
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,199
Because my only fear with this is, are we negatively

843
00:43:34,199 --> 00:43:39,469
affecting other types of multifamily by adding this other

844
00:43:39,469 --> 00:43:41,840
layer and expense for developers and developments?

845
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,199
And so I want to know where your brain was in the think

846
00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:48,840
tank room that we got to this.

847
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,840
>> Sure, we started this several months ago.

848
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,840
We've had several meetings with the city council.

849
00:43:54,840 --> 00:44:00,840
Obviously, the issue, if you want to call it a concern,

850
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,550
was we were seeing these development pressures in the form

851
00:44:04,550 --> 00:44:12,840
of SROs that were impacting the area in various aspects.

852
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,460
So we started looking at how we would address these types

853
00:44:16,460 --> 00:44:17,840
of developments.

854
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:24,360
We talked about defining a specific use or come up with a

855
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,519
use within itself as a SRO or collegiate housing, is what

856
00:44:28,519 --> 00:44:29,840
we were calling it.

857
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:34,199
And identifying where that use would be permitted in a

858
00:44:34,199 --> 00:44:35,840
zoning district.

859
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,840
So similar to adding a use to the development code,

860
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,159
identifying a zoning district and potentially adding

861
00:44:43,159 --> 00:44:45,840
additional design criteria for that particular use.

862
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:51,840
We had a work session with city council and the council

863
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:57,989
couldn't come up with a unanimous determination or

864
00:44:57,989 --> 00:45:01,840
direction to move forward with that particular proposal.

865
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,190
So we came back after that and staff kind of went over what

866
00:45:06,190 --> 00:45:10,380
our other options are and what we can do to address the

867
00:45:10,380 --> 00:45:13,179
issues that we were dealing with on these development

868
00:45:13,179 --> 00:45:13,840
pressures.

869
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,219
And we felt that the SUP would address those issues, give

870
00:45:18,219 --> 00:45:23,070
the community the opportunity to discuss and hopefully come

871
00:45:23,070 --> 00:45:24,840
up with solutions.

872
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:29,679
Give the staff the tools needed to propose options or

873
00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:30,840
conditions.

874
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,199
And ultimately have city council and the planning zoning

875
00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:37,840
commission hold public hearings to further that discussion.

876
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,440
Because, as you know, if a property were to develop in the

877
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:41,840
DCG,

878
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,360
and I understand your point Commissioner Nowles, we talked

879
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,579
about small multifamily to large and it does encompass that

880
00:45:48,579 --> 00:45:48,840
.

881
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,840
And that was my first comment on my first slide.

882
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,840
And I wanted to make sure that was clear.

883
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,840
It does affect those multifamily from small to large.

884
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,570
So did you have discussion though about the negative effect

885
00:46:00,570 --> 00:46:04,659
on, like somebody let's just say building a fourplex on a

886
00:46:04,659 --> 00:46:05,840
typical lot?

887
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,940
Because now they have a much larger timeframe, right,

888
00:46:08,940 --> 00:46:11,840
before they can commence development, right?

889
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,840
Because would it be one public hearing here or two?

890
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,840
Two, one from PNZ and one from city council.

891
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:19,840
Just one at city council?

892
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:20,840
Correct.

893
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:22,840
Okay.

894
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:23,840
Good afternoon commissioners.

895
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:28,190
I just wanted to add on to some of Ron's comments and

896
00:46:28,190 --> 00:46:28,840
statements.

897
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,289
The SRO discussion was prompted by council directed staff,

898
00:46:33,289 --> 00:46:38,880
meaning the planning division, to evaluate the implications

899
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,840
or perhaps lack thereof of SRO development.

900
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,880
We conducted benchmark analyses to discern what that would

901
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,670
be and we went to talk about collegiate housing through

902
00:46:48,670 --> 00:46:49,840
that discussion.

903
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,840
When that item was presented to the city council,

904
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,199
ultimately there was consensus with the council to in

905
00:46:55,199 --> 00:46:57,840
essence review the multifamily development standards

906
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,380
as it relates to areas that could potentially have a

907
00:47:02,380 --> 00:47:06,260
greater impact as it relates to denser uses and the

908
00:47:06,260 --> 00:47:09,690
associated residential or well established neighborhoods

909
00:47:09,690 --> 00:47:10,840
and what have you.

910
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,750
And that is why when we went back, because initially we had

911
00:47:14,750 --> 00:47:17,489
our discussion with council where we did discuss collegiate

912
00:47:17,489 --> 00:47:20,050
housing and explained how that would be included in the

913
00:47:20,050 --> 00:47:20,840
definition.

914
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,630
But more importantly, when we speak about SROs, the other

915
00:47:24,630 --> 00:47:28,329
question was this doesn't address some of the single family

916
00:47:28,329 --> 00:47:32,190
homes that are also being converted for multiple dwelling

917
00:47:32,190 --> 00:47:34,840
uses, for the lack of a better phrase.

918
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,219
So what we did is we evaluated as Ron indicated the core,

919
00:47:38,219 --> 00:47:42,000
which is your Ds, your DCGs, your DRNs, your DR2s and those

920
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,349
districts and also evaluated what else is around that area

921
00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:47,840
as it relates to the built out environment.

922
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,869
You have proximity to historic districts, you have older

923
00:47:50,869 --> 00:47:55,019
residential neighborhoods that are well established and you

924
00:47:55,019 --> 00:47:58,050
also have some neighborhoods that are in need of a makeover

925
00:47:58,050 --> 00:48:00,840
as well as some areas that are in need of a makeover.

926
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,070
So the intent of the specific use permit is not to create

927
00:48:04,070 --> 00:48:07,090
obstacles or hurdles for anybody who is coming in to

928
00:48:07,090 --> 00:48:10,360
perhaps revitalize an area or perhaps look at an area in

929
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,840
proximity to an established residential neighborhood.

930
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:18,199
The intent of the specific use permit is purely a tool to

931
00:48:18,199 --> 00:48:21,949
evaluate the use and its adjacency to the surrounding land

932
00:48:21,949 --> 00:48:22,840
use pattern.

933
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:27,590
And what measures can be provided from an aesthetic measure

934
00:48:27,590 --> 00:48:31,530
or from building material or spacing, massing your spatial

935
00:48:31,530 --> 00:48:32,840
design and analysis.

936
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:34,840
How would that play into that?

937
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,039
And the specific use permit is a dual public hearing

938
00:48:38,039 --> 00:48:38,840
process.

939
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,519
So it would come before you, the Planning and Zoning

940
00:48:41,519 --> 00:48:44,360
Commission, the recommending body and then move on to

941
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,400
council and then your roles would be depending on community

942
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,840
input, how you wanted to proceed with that SUP.

943
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,840
Commissioner Rossell.

944
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,840
Thank you Chair. I have several questions.

945
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,860
Hopefully they make logical sense. I was kind of jotting

946
00:48:59,860 --> 00:49:01,840
them down as I was thinking about them.

947
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:06,679
This seems to be prompted by collegiate housing SROs

948
00:49:06,679 --> 00:49:11,280
several months ago. Has there been any project thus far in

949
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:12,840
the city that by rights?

950
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:18,650
They took advantage of the, I mean, I guess what I'm saying

951
00:49:18,650 --> 00:49:22,739
is, is there any precedent, apart from individuals coming

952
00:49:22,739 --> 00:49:25,840
and asking to build SROs that we've seen in the city?

953
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:29,340
Has someone taken advantage of current by right zoning that

954
00:49:29,340 --> 00:49:32,630
's affected neighborhoods or the city? Do we know of any

955
00:49:32,630 --> 00:49:33,840
projects like that?

956
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,550
Or are we just not wanting SUPs and these to continue

957
00:49:37,550 --> 00:49:39,840
coming on the north side of UNT?

958
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,130
We've had, I mean, you've seen several zoning cases come

959
00:49:43,130 --> 00:49:47,840
through. I'm trying to think of some developments.

960
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:53,489
The one on Eagle, I'm blanking on the name, I believe that

961
00:49:53,489 --> 00:49:57,840
's zone DCG and that was permitted by right.

962
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,909
And there may be some variances that were required, maybe

963
00:50:01,909 --> 00:50:05,840
an ADP, but the use or the zoning did permit that use.

964
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:10,320
Again, Eagle and Bernard, the south corner. I actually have

965
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:10,840
a photo of it.

966
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,840
That's fine. It means dead center in the urban core green.

967
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:19,199
I was just trying to think if there's been an actual

968
00:50:19,199 --> 00:50:22,280
project that would make this a precipice other than the

969
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:27,329
city PNZ council thinking about, well, this could be an

970
00:50:27,329 --> 00:50:29,840
issue or we get a lot of requests for this.

971
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,630
So I was saying this is reactive or proactive and if it's

972
00:50:33,630 --> 00:50:37,789
proactive, what is it necessarily based on? I don't know if

973
00:50:37,789 --> 00:50:39,840
there's a good answer for that.

974
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:44,659
Have we gotten any feedback from the citizens or the city

975
00:50:44,659 --> 00:50:47,789
in regards to to moving forward on this or is this just

976
00:50:47,789 --> 00:50:49,840
internalized from staff and council?

977
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:54,190
This has been, we actually posted it for tonight's public

978
00:50:54,190 --> 00:50:59,880
hearing. We've received several input from folks after

979
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,840
hearing the work session at city council.

980
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:07,190
Some of them were in favor and some of them were in

981
00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:07,840
opposition.

982
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:12,059
I would just add to that. I think probably the impetus was

983
00:51:12,059 --> 00:51:15,840
the normal inscription projects that keep coming up.

984
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:20,059
They have that same business model. So we've seen it before

985
00:51:20,059 --> 00:51:23,599
and we, I guess we want to figure out a way to allow those

986
00:51:23,599 --> 00:51:26,590
in the community, but to do it in a way that is compatible

987
00:51:26,590 --> 00:51:27,840
with the neighborhoods.

988
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:32,579
And so finding that happy medium is, I guess, this is the

989
00:51:32,579 --> 00:51:33,840
first step.

990
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:41,840
Right. Is there a way to on a use case have a boundary from

991
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,329
conflicting zoning so that SROs couldn't be built within

992
00:51:46,329 --> 00:51:48,840
500 feet of any conflicting zone?

993
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,070
Have we thought about just kind of creating around this

994
00:51:52,070 --> 00:51:53,840
green block just a buffer?

995
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,239
Because it sounds like the city is not against SROs because

996
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,909
it might be just easiest to ban them, but it seems like we

997
00:51:58,909 --> 00:52:00,840
're okay with them in some places.

998
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:04,190
And if that's the case, then can we not just better tell S

999
00:52:04,190 --> 00:52:07,840
RO developments where they're friendly to them in the city?

1000
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,480
Right. I mean, well, I mean, the zoning right now as it is

1001
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,840
would permit it, but I think what is important to note that

1002
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:20,050
is there are also existing established neighborhoods that

1003
00:52:20,050 --> 00:52:21,840
would be affected as well.

1004
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,909
And those areas are throughout the area that we're talking

1005
00:52:24,909 --> 00:52:25,840
about as well.

1006
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:30,190
So this would serve to help protect those established

1007
00:52:30,190 --> 00:52:30,840
neighborhoods.

1008
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:37,840
Again, the proposal that we've seen have been in the north.

1009
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,179
We've seen some zoning cases come through around the

1010
00:52:40,179 --> 00:52:43,650
southern part of the university, but we haven't seen them

1011
00:52:43,650 --> 00:52:47,840
develop except for maybe this development right here.

1012
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:52,019
Now, this particular development, there are single families

1013
00:52:52,019 --> 00:52:55,840
to the back of it, and if there were a specific use permit,

1014
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,179
maybe there would have been an opportunity to address some

1015
00:52:59,179 --> 00:53:02,380
of the impacts that they may be feeling or having at this

1016
00:53:02,380 --> 00:53:02,840
time.

1017
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:07,840
And I guess my last point is to Commissioner Ellis's point.

1018
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,210
It seems as though a small minority of projects are going

1019
00:53:11,210 --> 00:53:14,130
to create a lot of work for a lot of good projects,

1020
00:53:14,130 --> 00:53:17,150
especially considering all the different zoning

1021
00:53:17,150 --> 00:53:18,840
requirements we have.

1022
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,590
We have three zoning that disallow by right and we're just

1023
00:53:21,590 --> 00:53:22,840
going to remove that.

1024
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,519
So it seems like effectively anyone who wants to build a

1025
00:53:25,519 --> 00:53:28,050
multifamily development in Denton has to go to P&Z and

1026
00:53:28,050 --> 00:53:28,840
council.

1027
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,719
That's in effect what would be happening through this, and

1028
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,360
that causes me some concern to try to be, we already

1029
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,409
generally have a reputation about not being business

1030
00:53:36,409 --> 00:53:36,840
friendly.

1031
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,079
I don't think everyone's trying to fight that, but I don't

1032
00:53:39,079 --> 00:53:41,440
know how this helps that fight and saying, if you want to

1033
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,610
build apartments in Denton, you have a dual hearing process

1034
00:53:44,610 --> 00:53:44,840
.

1035
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,070
And it doesn't necessarily end up just wanting to regulate

1036
00:53:48,070 --> 00:53:51,139
SROs or you wouldn't be discussing the increased design

1037
00:53:51,139 --> 00:53:52,840
criteria or other things.

1038
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,059
So it seems like an opportunity for the city to not just

1039
00:53:56,059 --> 00:53:59,840
regulate SROs, but also put any other criteria they want.

1040
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,269
Senator Bill there, we would really like you to use this

1041
00:54:02,269 --> 00:54:04,789
material and make it look like this, and I just don't think

1042
00:54:04,789 --> 00:54:07,079
that gives a lot of control or autonomy to the project

1043
00:54:07,079 --> 00:54:07,840
coming in.

1044
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,840
So I wish there was a better solution.

1045
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,190
If this is all about SROs, then I think it would be better

1046
00:54:15,190 --> 00:54:18,489
just to define SROs out so that other projects aren't so

1047
00:54:18,489 --> 00:54:19,840
affected by this.

1048
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,840
>> Right, and like we discussed earlier, we tried that.

1049
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,699
I think when we looked at this, this was not just SROs,

1050
00:54:25,699 --> 00:54:29,000
these would be multifamily developments, your traditional

1051
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:30,840
multifamily developments.

1052
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,539
Again, what we're looking at is established neighborhoods,

1053
00:54:33,539 --> 00:54:37,150
their historic districts, and our special overlay districts

1054
00:54:37,150 --> 00:54:41,010
as well would be potentially impacted by multifamily, not

1055
00:54:41,010 --> 00:54:43,840
necessarily just single room occupancy development.

1056
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,679
>> I definitely understand that, but also, so if we're not

1057
00:54:46,679 --> 00:54:49,840
talking about SROs, it seems like we have a zoning of DCG.

1058
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,840
And someone by right can come in and build 100 stories.

1059
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:54,840
Well, now we have a measure to stop that.

1060
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,840
Now we're like, oh, right there, we don't want 100 stories.

1061
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,840
So now we can almost spot, zone every piece of property.

1062
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,579
So we have this DCG, 100 feet, but if they come in with 100

1063
00:55:04,579 --> 00:55:08,019
foot, we can say, actually, in this area, it would be more

1064
00:55:08,019 --> 00:55:09,840
applicable to be 45 feet.

1065
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:14,059
And so it doesn't, I don't feel this is a solution, SROs,

1066
00:55:14,059 --> 00:55:18,340
it's a solution to provide oversight that I think is beyond

1067
00:55:18,340 --> 00:55:21,840
what is necessary or helpful to business.

1068
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,539
And if we're not okay with DCG in some locations being 100

1069
00:55:25,539 --> 00:55:29,309
feet, for example, then I think it's on us to, for us to go

1070
00:55:29,309 --> 00:55:30,840
back and pinpoint.

1071
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,199
And I don't know if it creates small area plans or overlays

1072
00:55:34,199 --> 00:55:35,840
or new zoning districts.

1073
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:39,019
But if there's areas we know we don't want 100 feet, then

1074
00:55:39,019 --> 00:55:41,820
let's rezone it and give them parameters before they come

1075
00:55:41,820 --> 00:55:44,400
in with a project in which the city is like, okay, but we

1076
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:45,840
want these limitations on it.

1077
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:48,840
That doesn't compute with me.

1078
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,840
No, take it. Thank you.

1079
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,840
I'm going to concur with Commissioner O'Zell.

1080
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:57,619
I'm concerned that we're just putting a whole level and I

1081
00:55:57,619 --> 00:56:01,500
may be fitting a larger blanket. It's almost like we're

1082
00:56:01,500 --> 00:56:05,389
down zoning without really down zoning by putting the use

1083
00:56:05,389 --> 00:56:06,840
of an SUP on here.

1084
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,900
Under the current environment, the consensus, at least at

1085
00:56:09,900 --> 00:56:12,840
this commission, has been even trying to compromise.

1086
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,170
If somebody wants to do 100 feet, we can't find a

1087
00:56:16,170 --> 00:56:18,840
compromise even below what they can do.

1088
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:23,280
And this is just going to be another opportunity to have to

1089
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,840
go through a hearing process to take somebody's ability to

1090
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,840
build by right what they can and minimize that.

1091
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,019
So I'm concerned about it and it is a very large area of

1092
00:56:35,019 --> 00:56:38,690
our city. It's not to Commissioner O'Zell's point, just

1093
00:56:38,690 --> 00:56:41,840
around North Texas in the historical district.

1094
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:46,269
You put the map back up there. It's a huge area of our city

1095
00:56:46,269 --> 00:56:50,840
, and it will affect small projects, large projects.

1096
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,460
And I guess the other concern I have with it, and I might

1097
00:56:53,460 --> 00:56:57,130
take exception with the 2030 plan, is that the whole gen

1098
00:56:57,130 --> 00:57:01,449
esis of the 2030 plan, my understanding is for it to be dens

1099
00:57:01,449 --> 00:57:03,840
er and for it to be inside the loop.

1100
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,550
And so we've drawn the plan to do that, and now we're going

1101
00:57:07,550 --> 00:57:11,510
to do other things to have the possibility of limiting that

1102
00:57:11,510 --> 00:57:11,840
.

1103
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:16,300
And I think it just continues to be more and more burdens

1104
00:57:16,300 --> 00:57:22,760
ome, more timely as far as time consuming for going through

1105
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,840
all that process, more expense.

1106
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,530
And at some point I think there needs to be some place that

1107
00:57:28,530 --> 00:57:31,070
you can look and go, you know what, if I want to build X

1108
00:57:31,070 --> 00:57:34,579
building, I can go out there and go build that versus, well

1109
00:57:34,579 --> 00:57:38,139
, I guess I need to look and see what the favor of P&Z and

1110
00:57:38,139 --> 00:57:40,840
council is going to be as to whether I even want to mess

1111
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:45,409
with providing, taking an opportunity to put some money on

1112
00:57:45,409 --> 00:57:48,840
the table and put forth a project.

1113
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:53,440
My concern is a lot of people will look at that based on

1114
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:58,150
the public testimony that we've had, not even going to do

1115
00:57:58,150 --> 00:58:00,840
it, whether it's a fourplex or SRO.

1116
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:05,639
Because again, the words that we say here on this board,

1117
00:58:05,639 --> 00:58:10,239
city council, people that come up and testify and make

1118
00:58:10,239 --> 00:58:15,380
their opinions known about projects, people look and watch

1119
00:58:15,380 --> 00:58:20,440
those meetings and say, you know what, it's too much hassle

1120
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:22,840
, it's too expensive, and it's too much uncertainty.

1121
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:26,969
I'm going to go somewhere else to do my project. And that's

1122
00:58:26,969 --> 00:58:31,039
my concern that this is a pretty heavy handed response over

1123
00:58:31,039 --> 00:58:34,670
a very large area of our city in my opinion from what it

1124
00:58:34,670 --> 00:58:38,800
sounds like to borrow Commissioner Rosell's term, the SRO

1125
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:39,840
issue.

1126
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,320
And I think if it's an SRO issue, you need to deal with

1127
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,360
that. And I think there needs to be an area that's set

1128
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:45,840
aside.

1129
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,019
You know, if you want to go build that type of project, you

1130
00:58:49,019 --> 00:58:52,349
can go build it. Everybody keeps talking about they want it

1131
00:58:52,349 --> 00:58:54,840
west of UNT, set it up and fix it that way.

1132
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,969
And then I would look at being more favorable to doing

1133
00:58:57,969 --> 00:59:01,489
something like this, but just to do blanket over the whole

1134
00:59:01,489 --> 00:59:04,840
thing and not have any opportunity in other places.

1135
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,550
I'm concerned about it. I think it sends the wrong message

1136
00:59:08,550 --> 00:59:09,840
to people.

1137
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:14,030
Well, what I can agree is that it will take obviously more

1138
00:59:14,030 --> 00:59:17,880
time because it has to go through the dual public hearing

1139
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:18,840
process.

1140
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,250
But what I would like to add is that there is approval

1141
00:59:22,250 --> 00:59:24,840
criteria for a specific use permit.

1142
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,840
So although it will take longer to get through the process,

1143
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,789
the commission can make a determination or recommendation

1144
00:59:32,789 --> 00:59:35,980
to city council that there be no additional conditions

1145
00:59:35,980 --> 00:59:36,840
placed on it.

1146
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:41,440
Again, so that's what this commission can do. Ultimately,

1147
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:42,840
city council can do the same thing.

1148
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:46,050
And if there isn't a need for a condition, they can approve

1149
00:59:46,050 --> 00:59:47,840
the SEP without a condition.

1150
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:51,820
And that would not lessen the density, that would not less

1151
00:59:51,820 --> 00:59:55,840
en the design as long as it meets our approval criteria.

1152
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,130
And what we're trying to do here is to find a solution,

1153
00:59:59,130 --> 01:00:03,190
like you all were saying, to address those concerns that we

1154
01:00:03,190 --> 01:00:03,840
all have.

1155
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,840
And we felt that what the city feels that the department

1156
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,840
feels that that is through the specific use permit.

1157
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:15,300
The only concern I have with that to follow up is that

1158
01:00:15,300 --> 01:00:18,840
currently by right, you don't have to go through all the

1159
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:21,530
concept drawings and put all of that together, spend all

1160
01:00:21,530 --> 01:00:22,840
the expenses to come and look and go.

1161
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,780
We like your design. We like the height. We like the color

1162
01:00:25,780 --> 01:00:28,949
of the brick and the percentage and all of the things that

1163
01:00:28,949 --> 01:00:32,349
you have to do to even be able to come and bring it for an

1164
01:00:32,349 --> 01:00:32,840
SEP.

1165
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:37,920
Correct? Correct. And so that's my point is you'll have to,

1166
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,539
everybody will have to go through that step before they

1167
01:00:40,539 --> 01:00:43,769
even get an opportunity to come present to say, can I even

1168
01:00:43,769 --> 01:00:44,840
do my project or not?

1169
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,239
Versus you can look at it and go, you know what, I can go

1170
01:00:47,239 --> 01:00:48,840
build over here on the corner.

1171
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,699
And as long as I build under the development code, I can

1172
01:00:51,699 --> 01:00:55,840
build my project. And that will not be the case here.

1173
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,550
All of those steps I just mentioned will have to be gone

1174
01:00:58,550 --> 01:01:01,650
through on every single opportunity that somebody wants to

1175
01:01:01,650 --> 01:01:05,639
take to do a project, all that expense, and cross their

1176
01:01:05,639 --> 01:01:07,840
fingers like the gentleman did two weeks ago.

1177
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:11,000
I hope they like it. And I guess I'm going to find out

1178
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,360
after spending a few hundred thousand dollars whether they

1179
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:13,840
do or not.

1180
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:17,000
And I think that's a difficult place that we're going to

1181
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:20,190
put people in that want to come to Denton and do business

1182
01:01:20,190 --> 01:01:20,840
there.

1183
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,670
And I think that's a big heavy burden that we really need

1184
01:01:23,670 --> 01:01:26,840
to think about and talk about before we move this forward.

1185
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:28,840
Commissioner Sullivan.

1186
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,110
Thank you, Chair. First of all, can we get a copy of the

1187
01:01:32,110 --> 01:01:32,840
presentation?

1188
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:35,269
Because there's some good information here that I would

1189
01:01:35,269 --> 01:01:36,840
like to have for my personal use.

1190
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:39,750
But I guess I'm trying to decide, are we trying to

1191
01:01:39,750 --> 01:01:42,840
encourage something or discourage something?

1192
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:46,429
And that's where I'm getting confused because it seems to

1193
01:01:46,429 --> 01:01:50,019
me like Commissioner Rozelle and Chair Strange is that we

1194
01:01:50,019 --> 01:01:52,840
're concerned about one type of project.

1195
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,769
I don't know, and I haven't been here very long, but I can

1196
01:01:55,769 --> 01:02:02,230
't think of a two story or a three story project that had

1197
01:02:02,230 --> 01:02:06,840
any, you know, vote, any negative vote.

1198
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:11,900
That all the discussions that we've had, the time that we

1199
01:02:11,900 --> 01:02:15,840
took is all centered around the SRO issue.

1200
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,920
And if that's what we're trying to avoid and trying to

1201
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:22,239
solve and trying to figure out how to deal with, I agree

1202
01:02:22,239 --> 01:02:26,500
with Commissioner Rozelle, is let's just say we can't have

1203
01:02:26,500 --> 01:02:27,840
them in certain places.

1204
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:32,239
And here's an area where you can build your SROs to the

1205
01:02:32,239 --> 01:02:33,840
world's level.

1206
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:38,690
I mean, I think that again with Chairman Strange is that we

1207
01:02:38,690 --> 01:02:45,840
're affecting a whole lot of the city for very few projects,

1208
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:50,489
although very impactful projects that raises the ire of

1209
01:02:50,489 --> 01:02:56,059
everybody that's around it and it puts us in a position to

1210
01:02:56,059 --> 01:03:00,840
where, you know, yeah, it's a great idea, just not there.

1211
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:05,199
And I'm trying to decide if this had been in place two

1212
01:03:05,199 --> 01:03:09,739
weeks ago, would we have still gone to one o'clock in the

1213
01:03:09,739 --> 01:03:10,840
morning?

1214
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:15,559
Would that have alleviated, you know, would this SUP allevi

1215
01:03:15,559 --> 01:03:16,840
ated all of that?

1216
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:21,619
Or would we have more one o'clock, you know, in the morning

1217
01:03:21,619 --> 01:03:26,349
meetings because every stinking project has to go through

1218
01:03:26,349 --> 01:03:27,840
this process.

1219
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:31,250
You know, that's, I'm just trying to figure out, are we

1220
01:03:31,250 --> 01:03:34,840
trying to solve a problem or are we producing a problem?

1221
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:39,639
Well, I think we're trying to solve a problem, but we do

1222
01:03:39,639 --> 01:03:44,500
have those situations where those smaller developments that

1223
01:03:44,500 --> 01:03:48,840
may not have a potential impact,

1224
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:53,030
again, we have to go through the process of obtaining an SU

1225
01:03:53,030 --> 01:03:57,389
P other than, obviously, the time that would be the only set

1226
01:03:57,389 --> 01:03:59,840
back for those developments.

1227
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:03,280
But other than that, we have the option or the opportunity

1228
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,840
to address a larger issue in that sense,

1229
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:10,199
in the sense that we can mitigate some of those potential

1230
01:04:10,199 --> 01:04:14,840
developments that cause impacts to adjacent neighborhoods.

1231
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:15,840
Commissioner Ellis.

1232
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:16,840
Thank you, Chair.

1233
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:19,670
Well, I mean, I have similar concerns because I know, again

1234
01:04:19,670 --> 01:04:23,719
, this all initiated, like I said before, with the colleg

1235
01:04:23,719 --> 01:04:24,840
iate housing issue.

1236
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:28,630
And I'm not even sure that this really addresses that in

1237
01:04:28,630 --> 01:04:32,789
the sense that we'll have the public hearing and we'll

1238
01:04:32,789 --> 01:04:33,840
possibly deny it.

1239
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:36,840
And in the end, city council can approve it.

1240
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,630
I mean, even if we deny it, they can still approve it three

1241
01:04:39,630 --> 01:04:40,840
quarters of the way.

1242
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:45,460
So in the end, I mean, I wish your direction was different

1243
01:04:45,460 --> 01:04:46,840
from council.

1244
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:50,139
I wish it was city-initiated zoning in a particular area

1245
01:04:50,139 --> 01:04:53,230
that these keep coming up, that we keep going until one in

1246
01:04:53,230 --> 01:04:55,840
the morning and getting the community in an ire,

1247
01:04:55,840 --> 01:05:01,179
and say you can't do this here and figure that part of it

1248
01:05:01,179 --> 01:05:03,840
out, as I think many of us have said.

1249
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:11,960
I just, I feel like this negatively affects people. It

1250
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:13,840
doesn't need to negatively affect.

1251
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,179
Commissioner Ellis, completely understand where you're

1252
01:05:16,179 --> 01:05:16,840
coming from.

1253
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:20,300
Chairperson Strange, Commissioner Rozelle, we do understand

1254
01:05:20,300 --> 01:05:21,840
what you're explaining.

1255
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:24,840
In fact, when we did go to council initially, we went with

1256
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:28,840
a definition for collegiate housing/SROs.

1257
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:32,199
We talked about location, zoning, where they would fit,

1258
01:05:32,199 --> 01:05:33,840
where they wouldn't fit.

1259
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:37,170
The discussion that stemmed from there was really the city

1260
01:05:37,170 --> 01:05:41,789
council, from what I understand, and that's why we're here

1261
01:05:41,789 --> 01:05:43,840
before you tonight,

1262
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:48,900
was is the issue collegiate housing, SRO, or is the issue

1263
01:05:48,900 --> 01:05:53,190
more the density and building height and parking ratio

1264
01:05:53,190 --> 01:05:56,840
requirements associated with multifamily development?

1265
01:05:56,840 --> 01:06:01,360
And if that is the case, should we not revisit the multif

1266
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:05,309
amily development standards and that we, I'm speaking

1267
01:06:05,309 --> 01:06:05,840
collectively,

1268
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:10,460
visit those requirements and come back with a revised

1269
01:06:10,460 --> 01:06:14,840
schedule of uses requiring a specific use permit,

1270
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:18,409
so that the public would have the ability to voice their

1271
01:06:18,409 --> 01:06:21,840
opinion on specific multifamily development.

1272
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:26,190
As it relates to our benchmarking study, we researched a

1273
01:06:26,190 --> 01:06:29,840
number of communities, college towns, college cities,

1274
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:33,840
to determine how do they address collegiate housing.

1275
01:06:33,840 --> 01:06:37,199
I think there were two, maybe three actually, that had

1276
01:06:37,199 --> 01:06:40,530
definitions for collegiate housing and pretty much did

1277
01:06:40,530 --> 01:06:43,840
require the SUP requirement associated with them.

1278
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:45,840
And they defined what that SRO was.

1279
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:48,519
And we went to the extent where we provided a draft

1280
01:06:48,519 --> 01:06:51,840
ordinance related to collegiate housing for the council.

1281
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:54,519
But our direction was different and we were asked to come

1282
01:06:54,519 --> 01:06:55,840
back with an ordinance.

1283
01:06:55,840 --> 01:07:00,199
The opportunity that you have before you now is to, you

1284
01:07:00,199 --> 01:07:03,400
could say that you are comfortable with it and would like

1285
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:03,840
to proceed.

1286
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,840
Or you could say, well, you're not comfortable with it and

1287
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:09,840
you can deny it and request a further study.

1288
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:16,840
Or a new DDC amendment associated with collegiate housing.

1289
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,840
Or you could ask for a continuance.

1290
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:23,840
I think, hold on a second. Commissioner Ellis.

1291
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,840
Thank you, Chair. Can you tell me what was wrong?

1292
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,840
I didn't see that particular City Council meeting.

1293
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,519
When you came to them with the definition and they gave you

1294
01:07:33,519 --> 01:07:34,840
this direction instead,

1295
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:38,699
can you tell me what the concern was with the definition or

1296
01:07:38,699 --> 01:07:39,840
the problem?

1297
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:47,360
I think that, to say concern might seem too onerous on the

1298
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:47,840
council,

1299
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:52,230
but I think their viewpoint was that really probably the

1300
01:07:52,230 --> 01:07:55,840
concern shouldn't be collegiate housing.

1301
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,440
It should be more of the density as it relates to multif

1302
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:03,840
amily development in specific areas,

1303
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:08,840
especially in the university core area.

1304
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,730
But do you think as a development staff that we have an

1305
01:08:11,730 --> 01:08:12,840
issue with that?

1306
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:17,949
I mean, other than the development de jure of the SRO

1307
01:08:17,949 --> 01:08:20,840
projects in college towns,

1308
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:24,449
do we have a problem with the other developers who are

1309
01:08:24,449 --> 01:08:28,920
going to come in with their more typical type multifamily

1310
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:29,840
projects?

1311
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:35,489
If I can preface with discussion of an SUP, a specific use

1312
01:08:35,489 --> 01:08:35,840
permit,

1313
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,840
in the little bit of experience that I have with SUPs,

1314
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:44,369
they can actually prove very favorable to a developer if we

1315
01:08:44,369 --> 01:08:46,840
have the appetite for that.

1316
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:51,199
And what I mean by that is you can do some really wonderful

1317
01:08:51,199 --> 01:08:53,840
design and deviate from the Denton development code

1318
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,840
or any code to provide the ability to do that.

1319
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:58,989
It could be increased height, it could be greater density,

1320
01:08:58,989 --> 01:09:00,840
it could be surface parking or garage parking.

1321
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:03,840
I'm just speaking very simply, very plainly here.

1322
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:04,840
So it is an opportunity.

1323
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:08,319
Yes, it is time intensive, and absolutely it does cost a

1324
01:09:08,319 --> 01:09:09,840
little -- I'm going to say a little bit more money,

1325
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:13,640
but it does cost a substantial amount for the developer to

1326
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:15,840
bring their project forward.

1327
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:18,840
But I think it also gives the opportunity for the community

1328
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:22,449
to see and understand that this project indeed is a good

1329
01:09:22,449 --> 01:09:22,840
fit.

1330
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:26,180
Now, there will be times where we have conflicting zoning

1331
01:09:26,180 --> 01:09:27,840
as we've discussed earlier,

1332
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:30,439
where perhaps we can look at the city-initiated zoning

1333
01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:30,840
option,

1334
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:33,970
which we've been talking about at length where we can

1335
01:09:33,970 --> 01:09:35,840
evaluate these arenas too.

1336
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:40,060
Also keeping in mind that we have the Denton development

1337
01:09:40,060 --> 01:09:41,840
code update that is online.

1338
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:42,840
It's already kicked off.

1339
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:43,840
It's initiated.

1340
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:48,199
And we will be reevaluating the schedule of uses, the

1341
01:09:48,199 --> 01:09:50,189
permitted uses within the Denton development code in the

1342
01:09:50,189 --> 01:09:51,840
specific zoning districts.

1343
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,829
And perhaps there will be a general requirement to add SUP

1344
01:09:54,829 --> 01:09:56,840
for all multifamily development.

1345
01:09:56,840 --> 01:10:00,170
I'm just giving an example that is not mixed use, just

1346
01:10:00,170 --> 01:10:03,840
something to discuss or whet your appetite with.

1347
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:09,750
So if we look at -- from my perspective, who is responsible

1348
01:10:09,750 --> 01:10:11,840
for the permanent development services,

1349
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:15,840
this SUP may not be as onerous as it seems at this point.

1350
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:19,279
However, from the other angle of, but we're not addressing

1351
01:10:19,279 --> 01:10:22,350
what the original discussion was about, which was colleg

1352
01:10:22,350 --> 01:10:22,840
iate housing,

1353
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:26,300
then that is something the Planning and Zoning Commission

1354
01:10:26,300 --> 01:10:30,840
can push or recommend that staff move forward with that.

1355
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:36,369
But I would, to be very candid, request a recommendation

1356
01:10:36,369 --> 01:10:37,840
from the PNZ.

1357
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:39,840
I would agree.

1358
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:43,060
I think we need to move it forward to council and they get

1359
01:10:43,060 --> 01:10:43,840
to decide.

1360
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:44,840
Commissioner Rozelle.

1361
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:47,239
No, if I could pick your brain just for a couple more

1362
01:10:47,239 --> 01:10:47,840
minutes.

1363
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:49,840
Not much left.

1364
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,680
Is there a reason in these helpful charts here that say

1365
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:55,840
what's permitted, limited by zoning,

1366
01:10:55,840 --> 01:11:00,189
that we couldn't just have a row of single occupancy

1367
01:11:00,189 --> 01:11:02,840
resident -- could we just have an SRO?

1368
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:05,119
Commissioner Rozelle, we would have to create that

1369
01:11:05,119 --> 01:11:05,840
definition.

1370
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:07,840
So we would still be amending the Denton development code.

1371
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:12,189
We would have to create that definition for single room

1372
01:11:12,189 --> 01:11:14,840
occupancy or collegiate housing.

1373
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:21,840
And that could be included or incorporated.

1374
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:23,840
That's fair enough.

1375
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:27,399
I guess to your point, the project that was here two weeks

1376
01:11:27,399 --> 01:11:27,840
ago,

1377
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:32,899
it was very tough for me as a sitting commissioner to

1378
01:11:32,899 --> 01:11:38,020
understand if the city feedback was because of SRO or if it

1379
01:11:38,020 --> 01:11:40,050
was because the building was very tall, the normal, the

1380
01:11:40,050 --> 01:11:41,840
scripture, that project.

1381
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:42,840
Was it two weeks ago?

1382
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:43,840
Right.

1383
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:47,350
It was hard for me to determine, to your point, if the

1384
01:11:47,350 --> 01:11:52,569
issue is collegiate housing or if the issue is how tall it

1385
01:11:52,569 --> 01:11:54,520
was and the density and traffic and wherever it was going

1386
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:54,840
to park.

1387
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:59,199
I understand that it might be a mixture of both in terms of

1388
01:11:59,199 --> 01:12:00,840
the city concern.

1389
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:02,840
And so I definitely see that.

1390
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,369
I don't know if it's just a collegiate housing issue as a

1391
01:12:06,369 --> 01:12:07,840
blanket concern.

1392
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:12,199
But that nevertheless still brings me to my point about

1393
01:12:12,199 --> 01:12:16,069
making a buffer zone where there could be less dense, less

1394
01:12:16,069 --> 01:12:18,840
tall buildings that are also not collegiate housing.

1395
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:24,840
So there could be a true transition from the DCG.

1396
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:27,890
Right, a vertical planning perspective or a development

1397
01:12:27,890 --> 01:12:28,840
perspective.

1398
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:30,710
One other thing, when you do speak about collegiate housing

1399
01:12:30,710 --> 01:12:33,920
, and I know we're using both terms loosely, SRO and colleg

1400
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:34,840
iate housing,

1401
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:36,609
they're actually, they could be deemed as two different

1402
01:12:36,609 --> 01:12:38,579
things because we have the SRO concept with our single

1403
01:12:38,579 --> 01:12:40,840
family homes right now where they are converted.

1404
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:44,270
So those are two separate issues that I wanted to raise as

1405
01:12:44,270 --> 01:12:44,840
well.

1406
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:45,840
Definitely noted.

1407
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:49,300
I guess the last thing that I would say is I also have seen

1408
01:12:49,300 --> 01:12:52,840
SUPs that can be worked favorably to the applicant.

1409
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:57,189
But to Chair's point earlier, the amount of questions still

1410
01:12:57,189 --> 01:13:00,079
in place and if there's going to be another appointment to

1411
01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:03,840
a commissioner or council, it just leaves a lot open.

1412
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:07,329
And we, somewhere in years past, we decided that DCG can

1413
01:13:07,329 --> 01:13:08,840
allow these things.

1414
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:11,989
And now it seems that we're trying to spot correct that

1415
01:13:11,989 --> 01:13:14,840
rather than maybe look at the overall zoning.

1416
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:19,060
And I'm going to use an example that it's a case in

1417
01:13:19,060 --> 01:13:19,840
progress.

1418
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:23,760
So Trey, please correct me if I overstep the parameters of

1419
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,840
this discussion from a legal perspective.

1420
01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:31,189
The Park 7 discussion for the property at Normal and

1421
01:13:31,189 --> 01:13:34,229
Scripture, the request for change in zoning to consolidate

1422
01:13:34,229 --> 01:13:36,840
the zoning, that was what was before you.

1423
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:41,289
Obviously, you had to factor in what the community had to

1424
01:13:41,289 --> 01:13:45,359
say from a planning division perspective, from staff's

1425
01:13:45,359 --> 01:13:47,649
perspective, that zoning change was appropriate and we

1426
01:13:47,649 --> 01:13:48,840
recommended favorably.

1427
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:53,199
And if we did not factor in the use, we factored in the

1428
01:13:53,199 --> 01:13:57,390
schedule of uses, all the potential uses that could be

1429
01:13:57,390 --> 01:13:59,840
permitted in the DCG district.

1430
01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:01,840
And that was our analysis.

1431
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:03,840
Our analysis was based on that.

1432
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:07,060
The SRO discussion, the collegiate housing discussion, and

1433
01:14:07,060 --> 01:14:10,840
now the multifamily amendment discussion that is before you

1434
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:14,869
was initiated, if I'm not mistaken, late last year or early

1435
01:14:14,869 --> 01:14:15,840
this year.

1436
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:19,439
So I don't know if this specific project was the impetus,

1437
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:22,840
but the impetus was there from other projects.

1438
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:23,840
Absolutely. Thank you.

1439
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:27,789
I'm glad you brought that up because I was getting ready to

1440
01:14:27,789 --> 01:14:31,989
bring it back up about staff supporting Park 7 because from

1441
01:14:31,989 --> 01:14:36,000
a planning standpoint in the zoning map, from staff's, all

1442
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:40,029
of its experience, felt that was an appropriate rezoning,

1443
01:14:40,029 --> 01:14:42,840
even with knowing what we all knew at that point.

1444
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:46,710
And tonight we have a similar case that we've all talked

1445
01:14:46,710 --> 01:14:50,810
about that's taking a very different approach instead of

1446
01:14:50,810 --> 01:14:53,840
trying to come and be very forthcoming. Here's what we're

1447
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:53,840
planning to do and show everybody.

1448
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:57,109
We're going to go the other way and say, is this an

1449
01:14:57,109 --> 01:15:00,640
appropriate rezone? And you guys figure out what we're

1450
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:01,840
going to do with it.

1451
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:07,829
And to staff's point, that is supported and push for or

1452
01:15:07,829 --> 01:15:11,840
push but suggested for approval.

1453
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:16,649
So to me, this is again, some of this goes away from

1454
01:15:16,649 --> 01:15:20,479
planning to somewhat of political views of what we think

1455
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:24,000
are appropriate or not appropriate versus what is

1456
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:25,840
appropriate planning.

1457
01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:30,659
What is already been drafted in our 2030 plan and what

1458
01:15:30,659 --> 01:15:34,750
staff feels like is appropriate uses to very specific

1459
01:15:34,750 --> 01:15:38,090
concerns about things that are way outside of what's

1460
01:15:38,090 --> 01:15:39,840
appropriate planning.

1461
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:43,760
And that's the concern that I get is that when we do these

1462
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:48,130
things in response to political issues, they're then in

1463
01:15:48,130 --> 01:15:54,520
place, things change, and then there's a very different

1464
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:57,619
view of what's appropriate to be built in a zone and what's

1465
01:15:57,619 --> 01:15:57,840
not.

1466
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:00,800
And sometimes to some groups it may be great that, you know

1467
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:03,840
what, the only thing that will be approved is two stories.

1468
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:08,789
And then other places, some other group may say 100 feet,

1469
01:16:08,789 --> 01:16:12,840
well, 120 feet because it's so beautiful.

1470
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:15,750
And so I think this commission and city council obviously

1471
01:16:15,750 --> 01:16:18,390
will make the final call and that's going to be my push

1472
01:16:18,390 --> 01:16:21,689
tonight as this moves forward to city council to let them

1473
01:16:21,689 --> 01:16:25,020
decide is that it's kind of the old political deal is

1474
01:16:25,020 --> 01:16:27,130
sometimes you think you're going to get something and it

1475
01:16:27,130 --> 01:16:29,840
works for a little while and the ball swings the other way.

1476
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:34,060
And then you've got a very different situation to deal with

1477
01:16:34,060 --> 01:16:37,829
and that's my concern on such a large area that we're

1478
01:16:37,829 --> 01:16:40,840
responding to fairly specific issue.

1479
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:44,020
They may have some very large implications over a long

1480
01:16:44,020 --> 01:16:46,840
period of time as things change in our city.

1481
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:48,840
Commissioner Sullivan.

1482
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:53,810
I guess my concern is the idea of using the term multif

1483
01:16:53,810 --> 01:16:59,840
amily and collegiate housing as if they are the same people.

1484
01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:04,060
In my mind, they are not the same people multifamily

1485
01:17:04,060 --> 01:17:08,119
meaning man woman child doesn't care about living across

1486
01:17:08,119 --> 01:17:12,840
the street or within a 15 minute walk of the university.

1487
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:16,319
They're looking at where we're going to live where the

1488
01:17:16,319 --> 01:17:19,930
school is going to be how can I get to work, those kinds of

1489
01:17:19,930 --> 01:17:20,840
issues.

1490
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:26,710
A single 19 to 21 year old cares about how close it is to

1491
01:17:26,710 --> 01:17:32,460
the school. Can I buy it? Can I get a bus or what have you?

1492
01:17:32,460 --> 01:17:37,760
And when I go 377, there are a couple of apartment

1493
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:42,840
complexes where you and T buses run all day long.

1494
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:47,699
Breaker kids standing there at the curb waiting for the bus

1495
01:17:47,699 --> 01:17:52,340
to come. And so again, I'm going back to the same point

1496
01:17:52,340 --> 01:17:58,210
that if we're trying to limit the 18 to 21 year olds who

1497
01:17:58,210 --> 01:18:02,739
have a bedroom only because for whatever reason, they think

1498
01:18:02,739 --> 01:18:03,840
that's cool.

1499
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:08,279
Then we limit to where that can be. And where it's a big

1500
01:18:08,279 --> 01:18:12,689
open space and they can have it 10 stories, and nobody

1501
01:18:12,689 --> 01:18:17,279
cares, because it doesn't interfere with the single family

1502
01:18:17,279 --> 01:18:22,250
or the duplexes that are on a nice street that's tree lined

1503
01:18:22,250 --> 01:18:23,840
and it's just a great neighborhood.

1504
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:27,770
And so when we start disrupting that neighborhood effect I

1505
01:18:27,770 --> 01:18:31,529
think that's where the problem is so again I'm going back

1506
01:18:31,529 --> 01:18:35,180
to the same issue and that is, if we're trying to limit

1507
01:18:35,180 --> 01:18:39,199
where the collegiate housing is, let's just limit where the

1508
01:18:39,199 --> 01:18:40,840
collegiate housing can be.

1509
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:45,489
Leave the multifamily people alone. If it's a two story

1510
01:18:45,489 --> 01:18:46,840
apartment.

1511
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:51,539
Again, I don't know of a single time that that's come up

1512
01:18:51,539 --> 01:18:56,350
and it's been an issue. And so this I think is creating far

1513
01:18:56,350 --> 01:19:00,649
more problems than what we've talked about is the three or

1514
01:19:00,649 --> 01:19:03,840
four cases we've had in the last six months.

1515
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:07,420
And I appreciate that comment because I guess the question

1516
01:19:07,420 --> 01:19:10,489
we need to ask ourselves then from a philosophical

1517
01:19:10,489 --> 01:19:14,029
standpoint is, had the project had a certain project in an

1518
01:19:14,029 --> 01:19:17,350
area that was requesting a zoning, if it were not an SRO

1519
01:19:17,350 --> 01:19:19,840
and it was multifamily and it could go up to 100 feet,

1520
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:25,840
would that still be an issue?

1521
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:27,840
Chair.

1522
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:30,310
Well, I don't understand the question. What was the

1523
01:19:30,310 --> 01:19:30,840
question?

1524
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:34,779
The question is that understanding that collegiate housing

1525
01:19:34,779 --> 01:19:38,340
perhaps that needs to be revisited in terms of actually

1526
01:19:38,340 --> 01:19:40,840
defining the use and what have you.

1527
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:45,979
But the question is then, for example, if a property is z

1528
01:19:45,979 --> 01:19:49,109
oned DCG in close proximity to a well established single

1529
01:19:49,109 --> 01:19:50,840
family residential neighborhood,

1530
01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:54,310
then if multifamily zoning is permitted there and a

1531
01:19:54,310 --> 01:19:58,520
developer develops a hundred foot multifamily complex, not

1532
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:02,180
an SRO or not a collegiate housing facility but just a

1533
01:20:02,180 --> 01:20:06,319
multifamily complex, would there still be concern related

1534
01:20:06,319 --> 01:20:07,840
to that use?

1535
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:12,680
Absolutely, but I don't know too many multifamily

1536
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:18,550
properties that would be going 10 stories in the middle of

1537
01:20:18,550 --> 01:20:20,840
a residential area.

1538
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:24,109
I just don't see that happening. I don't see the

1539
01:20:24,109 --> 01:20:29,260
promotional advertisement that would go along. This isn't

1540
01:20:29,260 --> 01:20:29,840
New York City.

1541
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:31,840
I don't disagree with you.

1542
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:35,170
So I don't think that people are looking to live with

1543
01:20:35,170 --> 01:20:40,840
families in a 10 story building. That's not our world.

1544
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:44,800
And again, just I wanted to put that out there because what

1545
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:48,279
I'm trying to explain is that as we evolve with our zoning

1546
01:20:48,279 --> 01:20:52,840
patterns and our land uses and you have a mixed use,

1547
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:56,260
I'm not talking about multifamily and residential to a

1548
01:20:56,260 --> 01:20:59,909
retail with that top bottom floor issue, but just having a

1549
01:20:59,909 --> 01:21:03,350
plethora of uses within a very confined area, then you

1550
01:21:03,350 --> 01:21:04,840
might have that opportunity crop up.

1551
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:07,579
So I'm just saying as we think ahead, this might be

1552
01:21:07,579 --> 01:21:10,750
something you want to park and think about and digest and

1553
01:21:10,750 --> 01:21:12,840
see how you want to move forward.

1554
01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:14,840
Commissioner Hatchbuth.

1555
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:16,840
Thank you.

1556
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:19,840
I'm not going to say it all because I need an audio book.

1557
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:25,680
But I want to point out that I stand and sit here, the only

1558
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:32,890
person that voted for the development on Fry Street in the

1559
01:21:32,890 --> 01:21:36,840
middle of downtown, I mean university-ish area.

1560
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:40,539
I'm the only person that voted for that and then also voted

1561
01:21:40,539 --> 01:21:44,159
against it being on the edge of what would be a transition

1562
01:21:44,159 --> 01:21:44,840
area.

1563
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:51,140
And so I feel like I have a pretty good record in not being

1564
01:21:51,140 --> 01:21:53,840
anti-multifamily.

1565
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:57,619
I'm anti-building multifamily on the edge of what would be

1566
01:21:57,619 --> 01:21:58,840
a transition.

1567
01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:02,840
And so I challenge anyone to give me a good reason.

1568
01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:05,239
I don't let my kids play on the edge of the curb by the

1569
01:22:05,239 --> 01:22:05,840
street.

1570
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:07,840
I don't jump off the edge of anything.

1571
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:11,840
Edges aren't for big, risky stuff.

1572
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:13,840
That's just not where it should go.

1573
01:22:13,840 --> 01:22:15,840
My humble opinion.

1574
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:22,399
On topic with this, I think I struggle as well but for a

1575
01:22:22,399 --> 01:22:23,840
different reason.

1576
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:30,039
Because when you talk definitions, the cable industry has

1577
01:22:30,039 --> 01:22:32,760
been, and the movie industry has been trying to get in

1578
01:22:32,760 --> 01:22:34,840
front of pirating since the beginning of time.

1579
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:37,149
And I'm going to sit here and tell you that no matter what

1580
01:22:37,149 --> 01:22:40,649
you title it, no matter how you write it up, a developer is

1581
01:22:40,649 --> 01:22:41,840
going to take his pencil and say,

1582
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:47,489
okay, you can't have a kitchen by itself, okay, well I'll

1583
01:22:47,489 --> 01:22:48,840
draw this and make that happen.

1584
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:49,840
You'll go change the definition.

1585
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:52,869
They'll change the design just a touch just to get outside

1586
01:22:52,869 --> 01:22:53,840
of that scope.

1587
01:22:53,840 --> 01:22:56,310
You're chasing your tail at that point to try to come up

1588
01:22:56,310 --> 01:22:58,840
with, hey, we're going to box them into a corner.

1589
01:22:58,840 --> 01:22:59,840
No, you're not.

1590
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:00,840
That doesn't work.

1591
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:02,840
They move faster than we do.

1592
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:05,840
So then it becomes a matter of a bigger issue.

1593
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:09,550
The same council's direction says for more public input,

1594
01:23:09,550 --> 01:23:11,840
for more opportunity to speak.

1595
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:14,840
Well, council routinely ignores the public.

1596
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:16,840
You know, so I don't get that.

1597
01:23:16,840 --> 01:23:18,840
That doesn't affect change.

1598
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:21,279
And so for me, I think the glaring issue and everything,

1599
01:23:21,279 --> 01:23:23,840
everyone said, no one's mentioned the stakeholders.

1600
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:28,840
No one's mentioned we talked to developers and they said.

1601
01:23:28,840 --> 01:23:29,840
That's the problem.

1602
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:32,840
We sit in a vacuum and try to make a decision.

1603
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:35,930
And so this board or this body needs to create, you need

1604
01:23:35,930 --> 01:23:37,840
two sets of lab rats, right?

1605
01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:40,840
You need a lab rat that sits on P and Z.

1606
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:43,779
You need, so that we don't have to have the meeting

1607
01:23:43,779 --> 01:23:44,840
restrictions.

1608
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:47,439
So we grab two or three people from P and Z and two or

1609
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:49,840
three people from a development community.

1610
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:51,840
And you bounce those ideas off of each other.

1611
01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:52,840
You have a conversation.

1612
01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:56,229
But I just think no one's mentioned that they talked to the

1613
01:23:56,229 --> 01:23:58,840
developers and got their input on that.

1614
01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:05,119
And so I think that that to me is troubling that we, it

1615
01:24:05,119 --> 01:24:08,840
just, you're not going to get in front of it by definition.

1616
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:11,659
You're going to freeze them out, which is going to be a

1617
01:24:11,659 --> 01:24:13,840
problem by just in its basic premise.

1618
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:18,369
And then it just doesn't, you're not giving the citizens

1619
01:24:18,369 --> 01:24:22,840
any extra input or that input has not been acted upon.

1620
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:27,060
And so for me, I think it's silly to talk about definitions

1621
01:24:27,060 --> 01:24:29,840
because that's not going to cause them.

1622
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:32,449
And even this project before this, I'm going to digress a

1623
01:24:32,449 --> 01:24:32,840
bit.

1624
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:38,210
So we're talking about, just before you get to CVS, about

1625
01:24:38,210 --> 01:24:40,840
this development going in and if they're saying something

1626
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:44,840
and if they don't, none of that matters.

1627
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:49,840
Traffic on that road, are you, you get past, what is that?

1628
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:52,840
The giant apartments on the corner, what street is that?

1629
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:53,840
Is that Welch?

1630
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:56,840
Yeah, you get past Welch and that street is so deplorable,

1631
01:24:56,840 --> 01:25:00,180
you're going to go one mile per hour no matter what it is,

1632
01:25:00,180 --> 01:25:00,840
right?

1633
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:04,920
So you're talking about increased traffic upstream on a one

1634
01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:08,840
way that we're all doomed to fail once you cross Welch.

1635
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:12,640
And so for me, it really, this conversation lacks reality

1636
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:15,840
because it's not talking to the stakeholders.

1637
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:19,449
It's not taking into consideration that you're not going to

1638
01:25:19,449 --> 01:25:21,840
get in front of it definition wise.

1639
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:25,529
And so I'd love to see something that has a touch of

1640
01:25:25,529 --> 01:25:26,840
reality to it.

1641
01:25:26,840 --> 01:25:31,189
So I don't feel like we should, right now I don't think we

1642
01:25:31,189 --> 01:25:32,840
should send it to council as is.

1643
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:37,680
I think they need, we should send direction on our input

1644
01:25:37,680 --> 01:25:41,840
and I don't think definition is the way to go.

1645
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:45,350
I think it should be, because I think developers will reach

1646
01:25:45,350 --> 01:25:48,840
out and they'll say, hey, what do you think about this?

1647
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:49,840
Where is this going?

1648
01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:54,189
And so I think there needs to be a smaller body that can

1649
01:25:54,189 --> 01:25:58,420
meet with a small body of developers that would negotiate

1650
01:25:58,420 --> 01:25:59,840
or speak in earnest.

1651
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:03,329
And then those four people, those six people sit down and

1652
01:26:03,329 --> 01:26:04,840
have a conversation.

1653
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:07,840
And maybe you mix in, you put in three citizens.

1654
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:12,189
So you have nine people that sit down and have a real

1655
01:26:12,189 --> 01:26:15,680
conversation versus this, which is, hey, we're going to

1656
01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:17,840
come roll this downhill on you.

1657
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:22,199
And they're going to skirt it and we'll have to redo it all

1658
01:26:22,199 --> 01:26:22,840
over.

1659
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:26,060
We're not going to be able to write the development code

1660
01:26:26,060 --> 01:26:29,069
faster than they can take their pencil and make two k

1661
01:26:29,069 --> 01:26:29,840
itchens.

1662
01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:32,750
So now there's one general kitchen and one kitchen tied to

1663
01:26:32,750 --> 01:26:34,840
this room, so now it's multifamily.

1664
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:39,840
So I just don't think that's a good path.

1665
01:26:39,840 --> 01:26:40,840
Sure.

1666
01:26:40,840 --> 01:26:42,840
Call on Laco.

1667
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:44,840
Just a quick comment.

1668
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:48,170
Reaching out to developers, I can see as a good idea and

1669
01:26:48,170 --> 01:26:49,840
want to get their input.

1670
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:53,250
I cannot recommend that you purposefully pick a less than

1671
01:26:53,250 --> 01:26:57,279
half number of your group to meet with them to try to skirt

1672
01:26:57,279 --> 01:27:00,840
the quorum rules, just for the record.

1673
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:03,840
Well, I think it's not really to skirt the quorum rules.

1674
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:07,840
It's to take in the fact that time is money, regardless.

1675
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:15,140
And I think if you ignore that fact, then that doesn't make

1676
01:27:15,140 --> 01:27:16,840
it go away.

1677
01:27:16,840 --> 01:27:22,840
So I think if ultimately you come back to the full body,

1678
01:27:22,840 --> 01:27:26,369
then I think it ultimately satisfies that because you can

1679
01:27:26,369 --> 01:27:27,840
meet twice in a week.

1680
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:28,840
You meet three times in a week.

1681
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:33,479
You can meet, you know, you can satisfy and get a consensus

1682
01:27:33,479 --> 01:27:37,010
and get things done, which I know is a scary premise to

1683
01:27:37,010 --> 01:27:39,840
actually get stuff done, but it's really cool.

1684
01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:44,189
And so I think that's kind of my point is what are we doing

1685
01:27:44,189 --> 01:27:47,460
productive that moves us along and moves us in a good

1686
01:27:47,460 --> 01:27:47,840
direction,

1687
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:52,609
that realizes citizen input, realizes our developer input,

1688
01:27:52,609 --> 01:27:56,750
and makes them feel as though we're listening and we're

1689
01:27:56,750 --> 01:27:58,840
trying to find a consensus.

1690
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:03,199
And I think that's where you'll get people negotiating in

1691
01:28:03,199 --> 01:28:07,840
earnest and doing due diligence versus trying to find ways

1692
01:28:07,840 --> 01:28:13,189
to get around our code that we can't amend fast enough to

1693
01:28:13,189 --> 01:28:14,840
beat the curve.

1694
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:16,840
That's my thought.

1695
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:19,520
If I can interject and provide some feedback from a

1696
01:28:19,520 --> 01:28:22,239
planning perspective, from the planning discipline, from a

1697
01:28:22,239 --> 01:28:26,500
land use perspective, the intent of a specific use permit

1698
01:28:26,500 --> 01:28:27,840
is not to be onerous, number one.

1699
01:28:27,840 --> 01:28:28,840
That's not the intent.

1700
01:28:28,840 --> 01:28:32,539
It's actually a level of evaluation that let's assume that

1701
01:28:32,539 --> 01:28:35,899
a use is not permitted unless a specific use permit is

1702
01:28:35,899 --> 01:28:36,840
provided.

1703
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:38,840
Let's look at the flip side.

1704
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:41,939
That provides an opportunity for a developer to actually

1705
01:28:41,939 --> 01:28:44,840
look at opportunities that are available to them.

1706
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:49,199
The goal from the planning division is never to exclude any

1707
01:28:49,199 --> 01:28:49,840
party.

1708
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:52,960
We do have an obligation to our community and our citizens

1709
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:56,000
to ensure that we have as to the greatest extent possible

1710
01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:57,840
sound planning principles.

1711
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:02,199
So when it relates to, for instance, a development code

1712
01:29:02,199 --> 01:29:04,840
update, that will not be done in a vacuum.

1713
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:06,840
There will be citizen outreach.

1714
01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:09,840
There will be community engagement associated with that.

1715
01:29:09,840 --> 01:29:14,800
As it relates to this specific request that is before you

1716
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:18,840
tonight, this came forward, and again, by the council.

1717
01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:20,840
So we are presenting this to you.

1718
01:29:20,840 --> 01:29:24,229
Staff has reviewed and analyzed opportunities or options

1719
01:29:24,229 --> 01:29:27,840
that are available when it comes to multifamily development

1720
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:33,079
within proximity to certain areas or within specific zoning

1721
01:29:33,079 --> 01:29:33,840
districts.

1722
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:35,840
And that is why it's here before you.

1723
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:40,579
The PNZ does have the opportunity to even deny this, and it

1724
01:29:40,579 --> 01:29:43,840
would move forward to city council.

1725
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:44,840
Commissioner Beck.

1726
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:45,840
Thank you, Chair.

1727
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:49,220
And if I start rambling here, it's because I'm trying to

1728
01:29:49,220 --> 01:29:50,840
put everything together.

1729
01:29:50,840 --> 01:29:52,840
I'm going to let everybody ramble mode tonight.

1730
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:55,840
Well, I want to be as concise as possible.

1731
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:58,840
When I first saw this, to me, it looked pretty simplistic.

1732
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:02,029
So I appreciate everybody's input to show me that there's

1733
01:30:02,029 --> 01:30:05,159
more -- it's a little bit more complicated than I thought

1734
01:30:05,159 --> 01:30:05,840
it was.

1735
01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:09,029
But to me, it was the perfect tool, I think, that if we'd

1736
01:30:09,029 --> 01:30:12,159
had it a couple of weeks ago, we could have resolved the

1737
01:30:12,159 --> 01:30:13,840
issue with the Park 7 thing.

1738
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:18,199
And I think when you look at this entire area that it could

1739
01:30:18,199 --> 01:30:21,029
affect, there's only one area that we're really going to be

1740
01:30:21,029 --> 01:30:21,840
dealing with.

1741
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:25,279
And it's going to be the sensitive neighborhood areas on

1742
01:30:25,279 --> 01:30:26,840
the north side of UNT.

1743
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:31,899
All these other areas, they're not a problem with SROs and

1744
01:30:31,899 --> 01:30:33,840
high rises so much.

1745
01:30:33,840 --> 01:30:36,840
But it is more than just collegiate housing.

1746
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:37,840
It is height.

1747
01:30:37,840 --> 01:30:39,840
It is density.

1748
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:44,260
We had the situation where DISD wanted to build a higher

1749
01:30:44,260 --> 01:30:48,350
building over off of Bolivar, I think it was, right across

1750
01:30:48,350 --> 01:30:49,840
the street from the neighborhood.

1751
01:30:49,840 --> 01:30:50,840
So it is more than that.

1752
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:55,210
And I think what this tool does is protect those kind of

1753
01:30:55,210 --> 01:30:56,840
neighborhoods.

1754
01:30:56,840 --> 01:31:00,020
And if you look around the green area and everything, you

1755
01:31:00,020 --> 01:31:03,100
're not going to see many sensitive neighborhood areas that

1756
01:31:03,100 --> 01:31:04,840
are going to be impacted here.

1757
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:08,170
Now, the fact that an SUP is required, yes, means the

1758
01:31:08,170 --> 01:31:10,840
developer's got to do a little bit more.

1759
01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:13,520
But I think, like Manal was saying, that this could be to

1760
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:14,840
their advantage as well.

1761
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:16,840
So I thought this was a good idea.

1762
01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:21,369
I'm not opposed to the idea that as we've got the DDC under

1763
01:31:21,369 --> 01:31:25,920
revision that maybe we could stipulate SROs in specific

1764
01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:26,840
areas.

1765
01:31:26,840 --> 01:31:28,840
I'm not opposed to that.

1766
01:31:28,840 --> 01:31:32,630
But to me, this would be a good tool to protect just a few

1767
01:31:32,630 --> 01:31:34,840
sensitive areas in this city.

1768
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:38,130
And mainly, to me, it's just the areas north of the UNT

1769
01:31:38,130 --> 01:31:38,840
campus.

1770
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:40,840
So I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

1771
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:43,840
But then that's me.

1772
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:46,840
Politics, there's politics in everything.

1773
01:31:46,840 --> 01:31:48,840
You try not to.

1774
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:51,840
We want to try and work within certain parameters.

1775
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:55,550
But there's always going to be a political element in just

1776
01:31:55,550 --> 01:31:59,789
about any decision any city, state, or federal government

1777
01:31:59,789 --> 01:32:00,840
employee has.

1778
01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:03,840
So that's just the nature of the beast.

1779
01:32:03,840 --> 01:32:05,840
But anyway, to me, it seemed like a good tool.

1780
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:07,840
I would have promoted it.

1781
01:32:07,840 --> 01:32:11,079
But yeah, if we need to maybe push it up a little bit and

1782
01:32:11,079 --> 01:32:14,840
look a little bit closer, I'm not opposed to that either.

1783
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:21,840
Any other questions for staff on this item?

1784
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,840
Thank you all.

1785
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:28,840
I think--

1786
01:32:28,840 --> 01:32:30,840
Commissioner Beck.

1787
01:32:30,840 --> 01:32:32,840
I did have one question.

1788
01:32:32,840 --> 01:32:34,840
It was so small compared to what we were dealing with here.

1789
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:40,649
But since I've got it, let me ask, in considerations on

1790
01:32:40,649 --> 01:32:45,840
page 3, number 9, it says, if applicable, an SUP

1791
01:32:45,840 --> 01:32:48,289
application may require this to middle of a site plan,

1792
01:32:48,289 --> 01:32:51,840
landscape plan, or architectural elevation.

1793
01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:54,060
That surprised me when you said, if applicable, it's a

1794
01:32:54,060 --> 01:32:54,840
reservation.

1795
01:32:54,840 --> 01:32:56,859
I would have thought that had been automatic, that those

1796
01:32:56,859 --> 01:32:58,840
kind of things would have been required with an SUP.

1797
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:00,840
Not all SUPs.

1798
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:06,840
There are some uses that are not so site-specific.

1799
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:09,840
So that's the reason why there's a may.

1800
01:33:09,840 --> 01:33:10,840
All right.

1801
01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:13,840
Thank you.

1802
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:15,840
OK.

1803
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:18,840
That's it.

1804
01:33:18,840 --> 01:33:22,680
That will conclude our working through our agenda here at

1805
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:23,840
work session.

1806
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:37,850
So at 6.07, I will close our work session, and we will

1807
01:33:37,850 --> 01:33:40,840
reconvene--

1808
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:44,439
Good evening, and welcome to the City of Denton Planning

1809
01:33:44,439 --> 01:33:48,840
and Zoning Commission meeting for March 22, 2017.

1810
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:51,840
This meeting has been dually posted, and we do have a qu

1811
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:52,840
orum present.

1812
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:55,840
And I'm going to call our meeting to order at 6.35.

1813
01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:58,520
Our first order of business will be to stand and give the

1814
01:33:58,520 --> 01:34:03,840
pledge to the U.S. and the Texas flags.

1815
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:08,199
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of

1816
01:34:08,199 --> 01:34:08,840
America,

1817
01:34:08,840 --> 01:34:13,270
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under

1818
01:34:13,270 --> 01:34:19,840
God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

1819
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:23,279
I pledge allegiance to the Texas flag, and to the republic

1820
01:34:23,279 --> 01:34:30,399
for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible,

1821
01:34:30,399 --> 01:34:38,840
with liberty and justice for all.

1822
01:34:38,840 --> 01:34:42,550
We'll move us to our second item this evening, which will

1823
01:34:42,550 --> 01:34:46,840
be to entertain a motion for our minutes for March 8.

1824
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:47,840
Commissioner Rozelle.

1825
01:34:47,840 --> 01:34:49,840
I move to approve.

1826
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:51,840
Commissioner Sullivan.

1827
01:34:51,840 --> 01:34:52,840
I second.

1828
01:34:52,840 --> 01:34:54,840
We have a first and a second for approval.

1829
01:34:54,840 --> 01:34:58,840
Any discussion?

1830
01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:10,840
Seeing none, I'll call for a vote on the board.

1831
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:13,840
Motion carries 6 to 0.

1832
01:35:13,840 --> 01:35:19,840
That will move us to our consent agenda.

1833
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:27,840
Chair would entertain a motion.

1834
01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:28,840
Commissioner Ellis.

1835
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:29,840
Thank you, Chair.

1836
01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:31,840
I make a motion to approve our consent agenda.

1837
01:35:31,840 --> 01:35:32,840
Okay.

1838
01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:33,840
Commissioner Beck.

1839
01:35:33,840 --> 01:35:34,840
Second.

1840
01:35:34,840 --> 01:35:35,840
Okay.

1841
01:35:35,840 --> 01:35:37,840
We have a first and a second for approval.

1842
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:40,840
Any discussion?

1843
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:49,840
Seeing none, we will call for a vote on the board.

1844
01:35:49,840 --> 01:35:52,840
Motion carries 6 to 0.

1845
01:35:52,840 --> 01:36:00,840
We'll move us to our public hearing section tonight.

1846
01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:12,649
I'm going to open the public hearing for item A, which is Z

1847
01:36:12,649 --> 01:36:25,840
16-0028, and call on Haley for presentation.

1848
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:26,840
All right.

1849
01:36:26,840 --> 01:36:30,529
Good evening, this is case Z16-28, and I'll run through the

1850
01:36:30,529 --> 01:36:33,840
presentation briefly for the benefit of our audience.

1851
01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:36,800
So the request is to hold a public hearing and consider a

1852
01:36:36,800 --> 01:36:40,840
request to rezone approximately a half acre from downtown

1853
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:43,840
residential 2 to downtown commercial general.

1854
01:36:43,840 --> 01:36:47,840
The property is located at 1604 West Hickory.

1855
01:36:47,840 --> 01:36:50,720
As you can see from the map, there are existing multifamily

1856
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:52,840
developments to the north and the west.

1857
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:55,949
Properties, two properties directly to the east of the

1858
01:36:55,949 --> 01:36:59,319
subject property, outlined in red on the map, are under the

1859
01:36:59,319 --> 01:37:01,840
same ownership as the subject property.

1860
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:06,289
You can see that UNT is located directly across Hickory

1861
01:37:06,289 --> 01:37:08,840
Street from this property.

1862
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:11,630
As I mentioned currently, it's zoned downtown residential 2

1863
01:37:11,630 --> 01:37:11,840
.

1864
01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:16,840
The proposal is for downtown commercial general.

1865
01:37:16,840 --> 01:37:19,909
The future land use designation of the area is neighborhood

1866
01:37:19,909 --> 01:37:21,840
university compatibility area.

1867
01:37:21,840 --> 01:37:24,520
This designation is generally applied to the areas

1868
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:27,369
surrounding our two universities in town, which are

1869
01:37:27,369 --> 01:37:29,840
affected by their proximity to that university.

1870
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:33,289
And the goal of this designation is to allow for compatible

1871
01:37:33,289 --> 01:37:36,560
form and land use to develop in these areas to create a

1872
01:37:36,560 --> 01:37:40,529
transition from the campus to the established surrounding

1873
01:37:40,529 --> 01:37:41,840
neighborhoods.

1874
01:37:41,840 --> 01:37:43,840
Staff's considerations.

1875
01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:46,050
First, the rezoning is consistent with the surrounding

1876
01:37:46,050 --> 01:37:46,840
zoning pattern.

1877
01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:50,180
You can see from the map here that there is currently a mix

1878
01:37:50,180 --> 01:37:53,840
of DR2 and DCG within the block that this property is on.

1879
01:37:53,840 --> 01:37:56,869
This designation is also consistent with the future land

1880
01:37:56,869 --> 01:37:59,840
use designation because that designation calls for density

1881
01:37:59,840 --> 01:38:02,479
and services be provided near the campuses to promote walk

1882
01:38:02,479 --> 01:38:05,840
ability and a versatile character for these areas.

1883
01:38:05,840 --> 01:38:10,840
And that could be accommodated with the DCG district.

1884
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:13,819
This would also consolidate the zoning for all of the

1885
01:38:13,819 --> 01:38:16,880
properties that are under the same ownership here and

1886
01:38:16,880 --> 01:38:20,359
therefore allow for more cohesive future development under

1887
01:38:20,359 --> 01:38:22,840
a single set of zoning regulations.

1888
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:26,109
This request would also allow us to promote transportation

1889
01:38:26,109 --> 01:38:29,840
efficient design by providing a higher density of resources

1890
01:38:29,840 --> 01:38:34,289
and living spaces within close proximity to UNT that would

1891
01:38:34,289 --> 01:38:37,250
then promote pedestrian and bicycle activity and could

1892
01:38:37,250 --> 01:38:37,840
potentially

1893
01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:40,279
alleviate some vehicle trips and parking through the

1894
01:38:40,279 --> 01:38:41,840
surrounding neighborhoods.

1895
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:46,029
It also helps to promote more compact design by allowing

1896
01:38:46,029 --> 01:38:48,840
that higher density near the campus.

1897
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:51,850
To give you a comparison, DCG does allow for a

1898
01:38:51,850 --> 01:38:56,069
substantially higher density than DR2, would also allow for

1899
01:38:56,069 --> 01:38:59,840
100 foot maximum building height as opposed to 45.

1900
01:38:59,840 --> 01:39:03,550
So it does have some increases there in terms of the scale

1901
01:39:03,550 --> 01:39:06,840
of development that would be permitted.

1902
01:39:06,840 --> 01:39:07,840
Notices were sent out.

1903
01:39:07,840 --> 01:39:10,840
We received no written notices in response to that.

1904
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:14,060
The applicant did hold a neighborhood meeting on February

1905
01:39:14,060 --> 01:39:14,840
15th.

1906
01:39:14,840 --> 01:39:18,130
One person attended and was neutral to that request and I

1907
01:39:18,130 --> 01:39:21,560
passed out their response that was provided at the meeting

1908
01:39:21,560 --> 01:39:23,840
to you all before the work session.

1909
01:39:23,840 --> 01:39:26,340
With that, staff is recommending approval of this request

1910
01:39:26,340 --> 01:39:28,789
because of its compatibility with the surrounding zoning

1911
01:39:28,789 --> 01:39:31,579
districts as well as its consistency with the goals and

1912
01:39:31,579 --> 01:39:33,840
objectives of the Denton Plan 2030.

1913
01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:36,840
And I can stand for any questions.

1914
01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:41,840
Any questions for staff?

1915
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:43,840
Thank you, Haley.

1916
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:45,840
And I believe the applicant is here.

1917
01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:48,840
I have three cards to speak.

1918
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:54,060
First card I will call on will be the applicant, Gary Chang

1919
01:39:54,060 --> 01:39:58,840
, to be followed by Kim McKibbin and Paul Messler.

1920
01:39:58,840 --> 01:40:01,850
Please state your name and address for the record and since

1921
01:40:01,850 --> 01:40:03,840
the applicant has 10 minutes.

1922
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:04,840
Good evening.

1923
01:40:04,840 --> 01:40:06,840
Gary Chang.

1924
01:40:06,840 --> 01:40:12,840
I live at 3608 Lake Country Drive, Denton, Texas, 76210.

1925
01:40:12,840 --> 01:40:15,840
I represent MSGSB and here's a little background.

1926
01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:18,840
We are a locally owned property management company.

1927
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:21,840
We operate under the name Jackson Chang Apartments.

1928
01:40:21,840 --> 01:40:24,840
We've been here since 1982.

1929
01:40:24,840 --> 01:40:29,250
I'm here to request that our lot be up zoned from DR2 to DC

1930
01:40:29,250 --> 01:40:33,420
G such that it will be congruent with the adjacent lots

1931
01:40:33,420 --> 01:40:34,840
which we own.

1932
01:40:34,840 --> 01:40:38,779
The subject lot, which consists of four duplexes, has been

1933
01:40:38,779 --> 01:40:41,840
under our ownership since 2003.

1934
01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:45,859
The adjacent lots, which consist of our leasing office and

1935
01:40:45,859 --> 01:40:49,840
two rent houses, have been owned since 1988.

1936
01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:53,819
We have been operating our leasing office out of 1600 West

1937
01:40:53,819 --> 01:40:55,840
Hickory since 1998.

1938
01:40:55,840 --> 01:40:59,840
We feel that it is time to redevelop the area into a new le

1939
01:40:59,840 --> 01:41:03,840
asing office and multifamily apartment complex.

1940
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:07,090
The buildings on site are near the end of their economic

1941
01:41:07,090 --> 01:41:10,840
usefulness and would be better served being redeveloped.

1942
01:41:10,840 --> 01:41:14,430
So tonight's agenda is to request zoning be changed to be

1943
01:41:14,430 --> 01:41:16,840
congruent with our adjacent lot.

1944
01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:20,439
Once that is accomplished, we will commence drawing up rede

1945
01:41:20,439 --> 01:41:22,840
velopment plans under DCG zoning.

1946
01:41:22,840 --> 01:41:25,840
Thank you. I can take any questions.

1947
01:41:25,840 --> 01:41:27,840
Any questions for the applicant?

1948
01:41:27,840 --> 01:41:29,840
Commissioner Beck.

1949
01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:32,119
Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Chang, for your

1950
01:41:32,119 --> 01:41:32,840
presentation.

1951
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:36,289
In our background material, it states that your intent is

1952
01:41:36,289 --> 01:41:39,840
to redevelop the site with office and multifamily uses.

1953
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:44,949
So this zone change, then, is this in lieu of constructing

1954
01:41:44,949 --> 01:41:50,840
a building between the height of 45 feet and 100 feet?

1955
01:41:50,840 --> 01:41:51,840
Yes.

1956
01:41:51,840 --> 01:41:59,899
Okay. And would you -- is this going to be multifamily in

1957
01:41:59,899 --> 01:42:02,399
the sense that it will accommodate families who want to set

1958
01:42:02,399 --> 01:42:02,840
down roots,

1959
01:42:02,840 --> 01:42:05,840
or is this going to be more accommodating for students?

1960
01:42:05,840 --> 01:42:10,189
Well, given the proximity of our site with respect to the

1961
01:42:10,189 --> 01:42:14,699
University of North Texas, we would cater towards student

1962
01:42:14,699 --> 01:42:15,840
housing.

1963
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:16,840
Right.

1964
01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:19,840
But we lease to anybody who is qualified.

1965
01:42:19,840 --> 01:42:25,840
Right. But as an SRO, it's not necessarily family-friendly.

1966
01:42:25,840 --> 01:42:28,840
And it's your property. You're free to do what you want.

1967
01:42:28,840 --> 01:42:30,840
Please don't misunderstand me.

1968
01:42:30,840 --> 01:42:35,989
It's just my concern is there's an abundance of SROs, and

1969
01:42:35,989 --> 01:42:37,840
it seems like they're continually growing,

1970
01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:42,199
and Denton has a real need for family, affordable family,

1971
01:42:42,199 --> 01:42:44,840
affordable housing for families.

1972
01:42:44,840 --> 01:42:49,569
So I just lay that out there to encourage you to think

1973
01:42:49,569 --> 01:42:52,979
about that, because down the road, there will be a need,

1974
01:42:52,979 --> 01:42:55,840
even in close proximity to the University.

1975
01:42:55,840 --> 01:43:00,710
But one other question is how do you plan on dealing with

1976
01:43:00,710 --> 01:43:01,840
parking?

1977
01:43:01,840 --> 01:43:05,050
That's a rough area for traffic anyway. So your design, how

1978
01:43:05,050 --> 01:43:06,840
will it allow for parking?

1979
01:43:06,840 --> 01:43:12,680
We will have a parking garage, and we will also have just

1980
01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:14,840
on-site parking.

1981
01:43:14,840 --> 01:43:15,840
Okay.

1982
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:16,840
Yes.

1983
01:43:16,840 --> 01:43:19,840
You don't plan on street parking being a factor?

1984
01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:22,520
Well, if shared parking is allowed, we would take that into

1985
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:23,840
consideration for credit.

1986
01:43:23,840 --> 01:43:27,840
Okay. Okay. All right. Thank you, sir.

1987
01:43:27,840 --> 01:43:32,840
Any other questions for the applicant?

1988
01:43:32,840 --> 01:43:33,840
Commissioner Sullivan.

1989
01:43:33,840 --> 01:43:40,220
I think my concern is what I would call zone creep, where

1990
01:43:40,220 --> 01:43:44,350
right now on the properties that you have that allows for

1991
01:43:44,350 --> 01:43:46,840
100-foot buildings,

1992
01:43:46,840 --> 01:43:51,449
the other property that we're talking about tonight allows

1993
01:43:51,449 --> 01:43:54,680
for a 45-foot building, I would think that since you're

1994
01:43:54,680 --> 01:43:58,840
just about a block away from a historical district,

1995
01:43:58,840 --> 01:44:04,189
that that would be a good transition for a 45-foot building

1996
01:44:04,189 --> 01:44:07,840
to be in the subject property this evening,

1997
01:44:07,840 --> 01:44:11,939
and then going up to a 100-foot building on the property

1998
01:44:11,939 --> 01:44:15,840
that you already own that already has that designation.

1999
01:44:15,840 --> 01:44:19,329
And I would think that that would be more conducive to the

2000
01:44:19,329 --> 01:44:24,310
overall neighborhood of taking into account the fact that

2001
01:44:24,310 --> 01:44:26,840
you could still do some of the things that you want to do,

2002
01:44:26,840 --> 01:44:29,840
just not to the 100-foot level.

2003
01:44:29,840 --> 01:44:35,010
And so that's my biggest concern is not necessarily what

2004
01:44:35,010 --> 01:44:38,880
you do, but what's going to happen to the property to the

2005
01:44:38,880 --> 01:44:43,510
west of that, and then again goes into the zone creep issue

2006
01:44:43,510 --> 01:44:43,840
.

2007
01:44:43,840 --> 01:44:48,189
My response to your concern would be that our lot is

2008
01:44:48,189 --> 01:44:51,840
surrounded by apartment complexes as well as the CVS,

2009
01:44:51,840 --> 01:44:57,489
and I believe that would provide enough of the transition

2010
01:44:57,489 --> 01:45:00,840
that would, for our lot, what we're talking about.

2011
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:04,140
I can't control what happens in the neighborhood, but for

2012
01:45:04,140 --> 01:45:06,359
our lot, I think it would be appropriate, because we

2013
01:45:06,359 --> 01:45:07,840
already have two-story apartments.

2014
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:11,319
We're surrounded by two-story apartments as well as by the

2015
01:45:11,319 --> 01:45:13,840
CVS as well as the chemistry building.

2016
01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:17,359
So our lot should not affect if we were able to develop up

2017
01:45:17,359 --> 01:45:18,840
to 100 feet.

2018
01:45:18,840 --> 01:45:20,840
We shouldn't affect the neighborhood.

2019
01:45:20,840 --> 01:45:24,840
And that would be my response.

2020
01:45:24,840 --> 01:45:29,840
Any other questions for the applicant?

2021
01:45:29,840 --> 01:45:32,840
Thank you, sir.

2022
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:39,840
The next card I have requesting to speak is Kim McKibbin.

2023
01:45:39,840 --> 01:45:44,520
Good evening. My name is Kim McKibbin, 1306 West Hickory,

2024
01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:45,840
Denton, Texas.

2025
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:52,949
I am here to ask you to very seriously consider opposing

2026
01:45:52,949 --> 01:45:58,390
this rezoning simply because we do not have a clear idea of

2027
01:45:58,390 --> 01:46:00,840
what the use is going to be.

2028
01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:04,409
We've talked over and over again for the last three years

2029
01:46:04,409 --> 01:46:07,119
now, some of you were here when I got started with this and

2030
01:46:07,119 --> 01:46:08,840
some of you weren't,

2031
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:13,510
that the transition zone between the university and the

2032
01:46:13,510 --> 01:46:15,840
northern part of the camp,

2033
01:46:15,840 --> 01:46:20,079
or the northern sections of those, particularly there along

2034
01:46:20,079 --> 01:46:23,039
Hickory Street and down in what used to be the Fry Street

2035
01:46:23,039 --> 01:46:23,840
overlay district,

2036
01:46:23,840 --> 01:46:28,199
parts of that still are, is a place where the university is

2037
01:46:28,199 --> 01:46:31,829
supposed to transition slowly into the surrounding

2038
01:46:31,829 --> 01:46:32,840
community.

2039
01:46:32,840 --> 01:46:37,500
A hundred foot building is not a slow transition, which we

2040
01:46:37,500 --> 01:46:40,840
have discussed on multiple occasions.

2041
01:46:40,840 --> 01:46:47,489
Now, yourself, Chairperson, mentioned two weeks ago, there

2042
01:46:47,489 --> 01:46:49,840
needs to be some compromise.

2043
01:46:49,840 --> 01:46:53,380
And I think that there is a possibility for a compromise

2044
01:46:53,380 --> 01:46:54,840
that comes in here.

2045
01:46:54,840 --> 01:47:00,470
But to make this approval for another half acre that is z

2046
01:47:00,470 --> 01:47:02,840
oned to allow a hundred foot building

2047
01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:07,199
with unbelievable density in a place that already has

2048
01:47:07,199 --> 01:47:10,840
density that prevents parking and causes pedestrian

2049
01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:15,840
problems and causes bicycle problems is to be considered.

2050
01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:20,199
Even if this, they say they're going to develop this, once

2051
01:47:20,199 --> 01:47:24,350
this is, you know, parceled out and zoned the way they want

2052
01:47:24,350 --> 01:47:24,840
it,

2053
01:47:24,840 --> 01:47:28,130
the developers will be beating on their doors. They're

2054
01:47:28,130 --> 01:47:30,649
after this property. They're after any property that they

2055
01:47:30,649 --> 01:47:31,840
can make a profit out of.

2056
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:35,939
I think there is a zone creep element to this that you need

2057
01:47:35,939 --> 01:47:39,840
to realize and needs to be taken into consideration

2058
01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:43,439
because what you decide here is going to make a very

2059
01:47:43,439 --> 01:47:47,579
significant difference on what gets decided in several

2060
01:47:47,579 --> 01:47:48,840
other places.

2061
01:47:48,840 --> 01:47:52,039
When was this these other two lots zoned the way it is? Has

2062
01:47:52,039 --> 01:47:55,449
that been something recent? Was that something that was

2063
01:47:55,449 --> 01:47:56,840
originally planned?

2064
01:47:56,840 --> 01:48:01,510
So overall, I disagree with planning people that this is

2065
01:48:01,510 --> 01:48:04,840
compatible with the 2030 plan

2066
01:48:04,840 --> 01:48:08,720
because it does not fit the character, the walkability and

2067
01:48:08,720 --> 01:48:13,569
the livability of the situation that's in that surrounding

2068
01:48:13,569 --> 01:48:15,840
area and moving north.

2069
01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:20,899
We have a very huge apartment building down the street.

2070
01:48:20,899 --> 01:48:22,840
Sometimes it's full. Sometimes it's not full.

2071
01:48:22,840 --> 01:48:26,340
It does cause problems not only for the historic district,

2072
01:48:26,340 --> 01:48:29,840
but it's caused problems for other places in the region.

2073
01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:34,199
So I think that it's important to very carefully consider

2074
01:48:34,199 --> 01:48:38,840
this. And I would ask that you delay making this decision

2075
01:48:38,840 --> 01:48:43,060
until some other things are basically known and situated

2076
01:48:43,060 --> 01:48:45,840
out about the Denton zoning things.

2077
01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:50,189
What are we going to do about SROs? Why do we need any more

2078
01:48:50,189 --> 01:48:52,840
of those? Everybody needs a place to live.

2079
01:48:52,840 --> 01:48:56,250
And the students use the SRO as a jump off place. They get

2080
01:48:56,250 --> 01:48:59,310
out of the dorms into there and as soon as they can get

2081
01:48:59,310 --> 01:49:00,840
into a private apartment,

2082
01:49:00,840 --> 01:49:04,399
private apartment, they're moving in there. I have no

2083
01:49:04,399 --> 01:49:08,840
problems with multifamily housing that has adequate parking

2084
01:49:08,840 --> 01:49:11,840
and has adequate green space.

2085
01:49:11,840 --> 01:49:16,670
What I do have problems with is the potential of building a

2086
01:49:16,670 --> 01:49:21,840
hundred foot apartment building with whatever might be in

2087
01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:21,840
it

2088
01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:24,630
and then them coming and say, oh, we don't have places for

2089
01:49:24,630 --> 01:49:26,640
people to park and oh, we want to come all the way to the

2090
01:49:26,640 --> 01:49:28,840
curb so we don't have to plan anything.

2091
01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:33,550
So please delay this decision until some other decisions

2092
01:49:33,550 --> 01:49:38,140
are made in the city that can better define this specific

2093
01:49:38,140 --> 01:49:38,840
use.

2094
01:49:38,840 --> 01:49:41,840
And that's what I would ask you to do tonight.

2095
01:49:41,840 --> 01:49:44,840
I have some questions for you. Commissioner Ellis.

2096
01:49:44,840 --> 01:49:49,300
Thank you, Chair. Thank you for your thoughts. Do you have

2097
01:49:49,300 --> 01:49:52,939
a vision of what you would see there, you know, knowing you

2098
01:49:52,939 --> 01:49:53,840
're not against redevelopment there,

2099
01:49:53,840 --> 01:49:57,010
you're not against multifamily? What do you think would be

2100
01:49:57,010 --> 01:49:57,840
appropriate?

2101
01:49:57,840 --> 01:50:00,109
Well, the buildings that are surrounding them that he's

2102
01:50:00,109 --> 01:50:02,189
talking about, apartment buildings, they're two and three

2103
01:50:02,189 --> 01:50:02,840
story buildings.

2104
01:50:02,840 --> 01:50:05,409
I don't think it's economically feasible to build a two

2105
01:50:05,409 --> 01:50:08,399
story apartment building, although there are a whole bunch

2106
01:50:08,399 --> 01:50:12,840
of those down on West Street, brand new on the west side.

2107
01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:16,439
Brand new ones. I mean, nice brick buildings that I wouldn

2108
01:50:16,439 --> 01:50:17,840
't mind living in.

2109
01:50:17,840 --> 01:50:22,449
But when when you start talking about what fits in that

2110
01:50:22,449 --> 01:50:25,840
area, maybe a four story building.

2111
01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:28,840
But I can't see anything much higher than that.

2112
01:50:28,840 --> 01:50:31,789
It sits at the top of the hill and it will tower over a

2113
01:50:31,789 --> 01:50:34,840
whole bunch of things as you come down the hill.

2114
01:50:34,840 --> 01:50:39,199
So the the concept of what's on the other side, like the

2115
01:50:39,199 --> 01:50:42,840
chemistry building, that's the university.

2116
01:50:42,840 --> 01:50:45,520
That's the university. I don't even think that should be

2117
01:50:45,520 --> 01:50:48,840
considered as part of the.

2118
01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:51,840
The community. Well, it is part of the community overlay,

2119
01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:54,840
but that's the university and they do their thing.

2120
01:50:54,840 --> 01:50:58,430
But we have the potential to direct the type of development

2121
01:50:58,430 --> 01:51:01,840
that is on the other side of the street that is part of the

2122
01:51:01,840 --> 01:51:03,840
city of Denton.

2123
01:51:03,840 --> 01:51:08,199
And yeah, maybe something that's somewhere in between those

2124
01:51:08,199 --> 01:51:09,840
back to a compromise.

2125
01:51:09,840 --> 01:51:13,380
How can we find a compromise with the people that want to

2126
01:51:13,380 --> 01:51:18,119
responsibly develop their property and be good stewards to

2127
01:51:18,119 --> 01:51:19,840
the community

2128
01:51:19,840 --> 01:51:24,979
without allowing something that's totally inappropriate in

2129
01:51:24,979 --> 01:51:25,840
the space?

2130
01:51:25,840 --> 01:51:28,960
Because we still have to worry about the infrastructure. We

2131
01:51:28,960 --> 01:51:30,840
've got to worry about the sewer.

2132
01:51:30,840 --> 01:51:33,399
It was right in front of this property that there was a ge

2133
01:51:33,399 --> 01:51:34,840
yser just a few months ago.

2134
01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:37,850
I mean, the big gaping hole in the middle of the street

2135
01:51:37,850 --> 01:51:40,840
where a sewer line busted or a water line busted.

2136
01:51:40,840 --> 01:51:45,199
But I think that if we find some way to work with these

2137
01:51:45,199 --> 01:51:51,840
people and to satisfy what really is the intent of the 2030

2138
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:51,840
thing,

2139
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:56,510
the intent of the the zone between the university and the

2140
01:51:56,510 --> 01:51:57,840
neighborhoods,

2141
01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:01,689
because like I said, all those apartments surrounding all

2142
01:52:01,689 --> 01:52:04,840
those buildings surrounding them are about two stories tall

2143
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:04,840
.

2144
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:07,979
Even on one of these lots, there's a two story of rock

2145
01:52:07,979 --> 01:52:08,840
building.

2146
01:52:08,840 --> 01:52:12,829
But to take it up to much more than four, you're going to

2147
01:52:12,829 --> 01:52:15,840
be overpowering and dominating it.

2148
01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:18,520
And what kind of materials are they going to build this out

2149
01:52:18,520 --> 01:52:18,840
of?

2150
01:52:18,840 --> 01:52:24,649
Is it going to look like the stuff that's there now, which

2151
01:52:24,649 --> 01:52:27,840
is aesthetically pleasing? Not pleasing.

2152
01:52:27,840 --> 01:52:30,189
I mean, they're kind of like they said at the end of their

2153
01:52:30,189 --> 01:52:34,000
usefulness, but still there is a brick and mortar feel to

2154
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:35,840
that particular area.

2155
01:52:35,840 --> 01:52:40,210
It's not aluminum. It's not, you know, different kinds of

2156
01:52:40,210 --> 01:52:43,840
things that makes that the feel that's in there.

2157
01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:49,119
And we really are as a community down there trying to bring

2158
01:52:49,119 --> 01:52:52,260
people into the community, down to the businesses, down to

2159
01:52:52,260 --> 01:52:53,840
the things that are there.

2160
01:52:53,840 --> 01:52:56,520
And students aren't going to do that. They're going to be

2161
01:52:56,520 --> 01:52:58,840
there. They're going to be gone.

2162
01:52:58,840 --> 01:53:02,399
So my I would, you know, I would love to see efficiency

2163
01:53:02,399 --> 01:53:05,840
apartments that would suit graduate students.

2164
01:53:05,840 --> 01:53:08,279
I would like to see one and two bedroom apartments that

2165
01:53:08,279 --> 01:53:11,649
would would work effectively, not be outpriced or out of

2166
01:53:11,649 --> 01:53:12,840
the price zone.

2167
01:53:12,840 --> 01:53:17,060
My children have lived in these people's properties. So I

2168
01:53:17,060 --> 01:53:20,189
know that they're there. They've been there for a really

2169
01:53:20,189 --> 01:53:20,840
long time.

2170
01:53:20,840 --> 01:53:24,949
I just don't want a mistake to be made that we can't back

2171
01:53:24,949 --> 01:53:25,840
up with.

2172
01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:30,199
And I think that you don't have all the variables in place

2173
01:53:30,199 --> 01:53:32,840
right now to make the decision.

2174
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:38,840
I mean, that's just my opinion about it.

2175
01:53:38,840 --> 01:53:46,840
Any other questions? Thank you for your comments.

2176
01:53:46,840 --> 01:53:51,840
Paul Missler.

2177
01:53:51,840 --> 01:53:56,840
It's Paul Meltzer. Meltzer. My apologies.

2178
01:53:56,840 --> 01:54:03,340
1914 West Oak Street. And how do I get it so I can see the

2179
01:54:03,340 --> 01:54:06,840
desktop here?

2180
01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:18,840
Anyone? OK. Tech help on the way.

2181
01:54:18,840 --> 01:54:23,060
All right. I'm going to share with you a presentation I was

2182
01:54:23,060 --> 01:54:26,840
pleased to make at the candidate forum on Monday at Stoke.

2183
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:32,689
And I think it sort of 85 percent applies and I think will

2184
01:54:32,689 --> 01:54:33,840
be helpful.

2185
01:54:33,840 --> 01:54:43,840
And it addresses the area of north of UNT and west of UNT.

2186
01:54:43,840 --> 01:54:46,180
I call it a plan for peace and prosperity in downtown

2187
01:54:46,180 --> 01:54:51,210
District 3 because you certainly heard kind of no end of

2188
01:54:51,210 --> 01:54:54,840
lack of peace on this sort of part of town.

2189
01:54:54,840 --> 01:54:57,680
And there is an opportunity for a lot of prosperity for

2190
01:54:57,680 --> 01:54:58,840
developers here.

2191
01:54:58,840 --> 01:55:01,949
But the part that I thought was particularly relevant that

2192
01:55:01,949 --> 01:55:05,149
made me want to share this with you today is that I hear

2193
01:55:05,149 --> 01:55:09,390
Denton 2030 plan evoked kind of like the Bible and

2194
01:55:09,390 --> 01:55:11,500
everybody can get their own interpretation out of it and

2195
01:55:11,500 --> 01:55:14,840
say, by golly, that's what Denton 2030 plan says.

2196
01:55:14,840 --> 01:55:17,680
And it actually says some opposing things. And let's just

2197
01:55:17,680 --> 01:55:20,939
at least be clear about the fact that it doesn't just say

2198
01:55:20,939 --> 01:55:21,840
one thing.

2199
01:55:21,840 --> 01:55:25,840
It does talk about growing compactly, as you referred to.

2200
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:28,529
And a couple of other things I've noted here are just

2201
01:55:28,529 --> 01:55:31,359
things I tend to hear in meetings like this that I think

2202
01:55:31,359 --> 01:55:33,840
are persuasive that we need dense infill.

2203
01:55:33,840 --> 01:55:36,289
Otherwise, we have sprawl that sprawl creates traffic,

2204
01:55:36,289 --> 01:55:37,840
contributes to poor air quality.

2205
01:55:37,840 --> 01:55:41,840
I do see the logic of the fact that it's next to UNT.

2206
01:55:41,840 --> 01:55:46,060
So you could there I can understand the desire to have

2207
01:55:46,060 --> 01:55:49,840
student housing near where students go to school.

2208
01:55:49,840 --> 01:55:56,260
I hear that. We also see in Denton 2030 the goal of

2209
01:55:56,260 --> 01:55:57,409
maintaining and strengthening neighborhoods, that single

2210
01:55:57,409 --> 01:56:00,039
family neighborhoods should be protected from abrupt

2211
01:56:00,039 --> 01:56:01,840
contrast of scale and intensity.

2212
01:56:01,840 --> 01:56:04,600
We also have a goal of identifying character and protecting

2213
01:56:04,600 --> 01:56:07,220
Denton's historic character areas through thoughtful

2214
01:56:07,220 --> 01:56:09,840
preservation and integration of new development.

2215
01:56:09,840 --> 01:56:12,850
And specifically in relation to this neighborhood

2216
01:56:12,850 --> 01:56:16,270
university compatibility area, as the previous speaker

2217
01:56:16,270 --> 01:56:19,479
mentioned, it talks about compatibility and gradual

2218
01:56:19,479 --> 01:56:22,840
transition in scale, use, character, and intensity.

2219
01:56:22,840 --> 01:56:27,189
So that's your 2030 plan that we keep on quoting. Gradual

2220
01:56:27,189 --> 01:56:31,840
transition in scale, use, character, and intensity.

2221
01:56:31,840 --> 01:56:35,420
No part of a 100 foot tower would meet that thing that is

2222
01:56:35,420 --> 01:56:37,840
in the Bible of Denton 2030.

2223
01:56:37,840 --> 01:56:41,489
So both of these impulses conflict in the UNT area, but

2224
01:56:41,489 --> 01:56:44,840
they're both addressed in 2030 plan.

2225
01:56:44,840 --> 01:56:47,840
So what guidance can we get?

2226
01:56:47,840 --> 01:56:50,590
Well, we have the future land use map and we also have

2227
01:56:50,590 --> 01:56:54,180
comments in the Denton 2030 plan that says this isn't every

2228
01:56:54,180 --> 01:56:55,840
answer to every problem.

2229
01:56:55,840 --> 01:56:58,270
That we need small area plans. In fact, it says we need

2230
01:56:58,270 --> 01:56:59,840
many small area plans.

2231
01:56:59,840 --> 01:57:03,210
Well, what I would suggest to you is that even though all

2232
01:57:03,210 --> 01:57:06,880
of the light blue areas are called university compatibility

2233
01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:08,840
, they're not all the same.

2234
01:57:08,840 --> 01:57:11,979
Let's look at the area north of UNT. Here we're not talking

2235
01:57:11,979 --> 01:57:13,840
about obviously Hickory Street.

2236
01:57:13,840 --> 01:57:16,409
So this, I really had the kind of scripture project more in

2237
01:57:16,409 --> 01:57:20,840
mind. But take a look at the pictures, all of y'all.

2238
01:57:20,840 --> 01:57:24,390
You looking? So, you know, that's kind of the character of

2239
01:57:24,390 --> 01:57:27,449
that area north of UNT. Not on Hickory, but just, you know,

2240
01:57:27,449 --> 01:57:28,840
this will help us in future conversations too.

2241
01:57:28,840 --> 01:57:32,350
Many single family well-treated historic structures,

2242
01:57:32,350 --> 01:57:34,840
traditional neighborhood feeling.

2243
01:57:34,840 --> 01:57:37,850
This is what west of UNT looks like. It has the same

2244
01:57:37,850 --> 01:57:41,489
designation on the future land use map. Does it look the

2245
01:57:41,489 --> 01:57:41,840
same?

2246
01:57:41,840 --> 01:57:46,340
I submit to you it does not. It's treeless, multifamily,

2247
01:57:46,340 --> 01:57:48,840
serves a very important use.

2248
01:57:48,840 --> 01:57:51,399
And it's all two story and I have no idea why. I'm sure it

2249
01:57:51,399 --> 01:57:52,840
made sense at some point.

2250
01:57:52,840 --> 01:57:56,000
It was probably protecting some transition at some point,

2251
01:57:56,000 --> 01:57:58,840
but whatever it was, it's all transitioned now.

2252
01:57:58,840 --> 01:58:03,189
So, you know, we look at that and say what's really

2253
01:58:03,189 --> 01:58:05,840
appropriate to each of these areas.

2254
01:58:05,840 --> 01:58:09,800
I suggest that there are two neighborhood appropriate SAPs

2255
01:58:09,800 --> 01:58:11,840
that should be considered.

2256
01:58:11,840 --> 01:58:17,359
In the west, it's all multifamily. Let it be urban. Call it

2257
01:58:17,359 --> 01:58:19,840
university city instead of cement city.

2258
01:58:19,840 --> 01:58:23,939
Let that go from DR2 to DCG. Open up tremendous economic

2259
01:58:23,939 --> 01:58:26,449
development opportunity for people like the applicant and

2260
01:58:26,449 --> 01:58:29,840
anyone else is willing to invest in Denton that way.

2261
01:58:29,840 --> 01:58:32,829
There you can have heights up to 100 feet and I'd say plan

2262
01:58:32,829 --> 01:58:35,840
it intelligently with first floor retail, with garages,

2263
01:58:35,840 --> 01:58:36,840
with green space.

2264
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:39,550
Make a percentage of it affordable so you're not entirely

2265
01:58:39,550 --> 01:58:41,840
displacing the community that's there now.

2266
01:58:41,840 --> 01:58:45,210
You could triple the area housing units that are adjacent

2267
01:58:45,210 --> 01:58:47,840
to campus and you'd have your dense infill.

2268
01:58:47,840 --> 01:58:51,189
A huge amount of dense infill. Great economic development

2269
01:58:51,189 --> 01:58:51,840
opportunity.

2270
01:58:51,840 --> 01:58:57,359
And looking at the difference between the north and the

2271
01:58:57,359 --> 01:59:01,840
west, I'd say go historic district compatible there.

2272
01:59:01,840 --> 01:59:07,840
Any questions for our speaker?

2273
01:59:07,840 --> 01:59:11,840
Commissioner Hussbeth.

2274
01:59:11,840 --> 01:59:16,840
So, do you have more slides?

2275
01:59:16,840 --> 01:59:19,680
Well, an inappropriate campaign slide because as you know I

2276
01:59:19,680 --> 01:59:22,159
'm running for city council from district three and I am the

2277
01:59:22,159 --> 01:59:25,029
only representative, the only candidate for district three

2278
01:59:25,029 --> 01:59:25,840
here today.

2279
01:59:25,840 --> 01:59:30,029
Outstanding. Okay. So my question, you're awesome. My

2280
01:59:30,029 --> 01:59:33,789
question is this though. If we have a realistic

2281
01:59:33,789 --> 01:59:39,840
conversation, using your words, gradual decrease, right?

2282
01:59:39,840 --> 01:59:47,189
Gradual transition. Yes. Transition, right? So you got to

2283
01:59:47,189 --> 01:59:47,640
start at the apex, right? And then you're going to

2284
01:59:47,640 --> 01:59:50,840
gradually descend. Is that fair?

2285
01:59:50,840 --> 01:59:54,579
You're going to have some point that you're going to

2286
01:59:54,579 --> 01:59:58,119
descend from. There's got to be some point that's higher

2287
01:59:58,119 --> 02:00:01,039
and then you kind of are used, that's higher and then you

2288
02:00:01,039 --> 02:00:02,840
kind of gradually go to lesser use.

2289
02:00:02,840 --> 02:00:05,569
I guess I think of it the opposite way. You're

2290
02:00:05,569 --> 02:00:09,140
transitioning from a single, you know, it is essentially a

2291
02:00:09,140 --> 02:00:11,840
single family neighborhood and then you've got a kind of,

2292
02:00:11,840 --> 02:00:15,840
you know, low elevation commercial area there.

2293
02:00:15,840 --> 02:00:18,720
So I'd say, you know, you're going to go up in increments

2294
02:00:18,720 --> 02:00:21,840
from what's there. Perfect. Okay.

2295
02:00:21,840 --> 02:00:26,579
Well, then I have a hard time and help me reconcile it. If

2296
02:00:26,579 --> 02:00:31,319
the, if ultimately, if you're ascending and its highest

2297
02:00:31,319 --> 02:00:35,840
point is just before the end of the trip, if you will,

2298
02:00:35,840 --> 02:00:39,840
which is the university, how is that counterintuitive?

2299
02:00:39,840 --> 02:00:43,710
If I say everything after whatever they put on this lot is

2300
02:00:43,710 --> 02:00:47,960
lesser than, so I'm going neighborhood, I'm going two story

2301
02:00:47,960 --> 02:00:52,329
and then I'm going whatever they put there, right? You're

2302
02:00:52,329 --> 02:00:55,840
ascending and that's kind of what you described.

2303
02:00:55,840 --> 02:00:58,920
Well, I mean, I don't know if we're getting a little

2304
02:00:58,920 --> 02:01:02,039
tangled up here without needing to be. I mean, we're, you

2305
02:01:02,039 --> 02:01:05,550
know, what we can see clearly is there's nothing close to a

2306
02:01:05,550 --> 02:01:06,840
hundred foot there.

2307
02:01:06,840 --> 02:01:11,199
And it's, you know, council member, a council member on a

2308
02:01:11,199 --> 02:01:15,039
previous project near this one talked about the fact that

2309
02:01:15,039 --> 02:01:19,060
if you stand facing the university, a hundred foot looks

2310
02:01:19,060 --> 02:01:22,149
okay. If you stand facing the neighborhood, it looks

2311
02:01:22,149 --> 02:01:23,840
completely out of character.

2312
02:01:23,840 --> 02:01:27,130
So, you know, I guess, you know, it's a hard in shades of

2313
02:01:27,130 --> 02:01:30,180
gray to define exactly where you need to be, but you can

2314
02:01:30,180 --> 02:01:33,479
see that, you know, somewhere in between the two would be

2315
02:01:33,479 --> 02:01:34,840
transitional.

2316
02:01:34,840 --> 02:01:42,039
Okay. And so my, my, absent this body, you know, absent the

2317
02:01:42,039 --> 02:01:46,180
detail, right, because they don't have to provide that and

2318
02:01:46,180 --> 02:01:52,859
absent, I'll assume that the people that own the apartments

2319
02:01:52,859 --> 02:01:57,340
in Seamont City and around the adjacent area, the two story

2320
02:01:57,340 --> 02:02:00,840
areas, are doing pretty well financially.

2321
02:02:00,840 --> 02:02:03,920
And I'm assuming there's a premium on those properties if I

2322
02:02:03,920 --> 02:02:07,840
want to buy them and uproot them. And so I think if you

2323
02:02:07,840 --> 02:02:13,329
have an opportunity in this property that they can build

2324
02:02:13,329 --> 02:02:17,989
and realize that and not, I mean, it's, I'll tell you, let

2325
02:02:17,989 --> 02:02:18,840
me just get to it.

2326
02:02:18,840 --> 02:02:23,439
It's hard, they're surrounded by apartments. Behind them,

2327
02:02:23,439 --> 02:02:27,859
apartments. Not even in the same block, the next block over

2328
02:02:27,859 --> 02:02:31,960
, there's apartments but for the house on the side. There

2329
02:02:31,960 --> 02:02:32,840
used to be some sort of frat house or something, I think.

2330
02:02:32,840 --> 02:02:36,289
There's businesses, there's a CVS. I just, candidly, and

2331
02:02:36,289 --> 02:02:40,840
you talked me out of it, I have a hard time voting against

2332
02:02:40,840 --> 02:02:42,840
something right across the street.

2333
02:02:42,840 --> 02:02:46,130
Like, if I can't put an apartment complex right across the

2334
02:02:46,130 --> 02:02:49,090
street from the university, across the street from a

2335
02:02:49,090 --> 02:02:52,699
monster building surrounded by apartments, I don't know

2336
02:02:52,699 --> 02:02:55,840
where else I can put a complex in Denton.

2337
02:02:55,840 --> 02:03:00,189
Just, I just, I'm looking at a Google aerial map and I, I'm

2338
02:03:00,189 --> 02:03:04,340
, I don't, if I can't put it here, then I don't see the

2339
02:03:04,340 --> 02:03:07,840
rationale in putting it in Seamont City.

2340
02:03:07,840 --> 02:03:11,199
I do see the rationale. I just think those people are

2341
02:03:11,199 --> 02:03:14,729
financially doing pretty well and it's going to cost you

2342
02:03:14,729 --> 02:03:17,840
and then you get out of the scope of this body.

2343
02:03:17,840 --> 02:03:21,680
I can't become a business consultant at that point either,

2344
02:03:21,680 --> 02:03:22,840
you know, so.

2345
02:03:22,840 --> 02:03:26,840
So I got to look at the use of the land and if it fits.

2346
02:03:26,840 --> 02:03:30,840
What that use is, they don't have to disclose.

2347
02:03:30,840 --> 02:03:38,229
Do you allow me to respond then? Sure, yes sir. We, we may

2348
02:03:38,229 --> 02:03:40,510
assume, and I have no way of knowing, that the area west of

2349
02:03:40,510 --> 02:03:44,880
UNT is maximized financially within the constraints that

2350
02:03:44,880 --> 02:03:45,840
the city's placed upon it.

2351
02:03:45,840 --> 02:03:50,380
That has no bearing on whether you would unleash tremendous

2352
02:03:50,380 --> 02:03:54,840
economic opportunity by removing those constraints.

2353
02:03:54,840 --> 02:03:59,260
So, you know, that, that's unknown. Although it seems, you

2354
02:03:59,260 --> 02:04:02,829
know, evident on the face of it that if you permit the

2355
02:04:02,829 --> 02:04:06,180
opportunity to have triple what's there, somebody's going

2356
02:04:06,180 --> 02:04:07,840
to want to realize that opportunity.

2357
02:04:07,840 --> 02:04:13,449
As far as the use, you know, directly north of UNT on this,

2358
02:04:13,449 --> 02:04:17,640
on this proposed site, really the issue comes down to scale

2359
02:04:17,640 --> 02:04:17,840
.

2360
02:04:17,840 --> 02:04:22,630
There is, there are not 100 foot towers there and I realize

2361
02:04:22,630 --> 02:04:26,840
that they are permitted by right on the adjacent lots.

2362
02:04:26,840 --> 02:04:30,449
But they're not there now. And if I were to give more

2363
02:04:30,449 --> 02:04:34,949
specific guidance to this body, I'd say you might consider,

2364
02:04:34,949 --> 02:04:37,840
you know, two options that I think would be palatable.

2365
02:04:37,840 --> 02:04:40,979
One would be doing nothing because you're not obligated to

2366
02:04:40,979 --> 02:04:44,239
change zoning just because somebody asks you to. That's

2367
02:04:44,239 --> 02:04:45,840
already agreed upon law.

2368
02:04:45,840 --> 02:04:49,550
An alternative that I think would probably be palatable in

2369
02:04:49,550 --> 02:04:54,380
the nature of compromise would be to go with the, remind me

2370
02:04:54,380 --> 02:04:57,739
what it's called, DCG, the requested zoning, but with an

2371
02:04:57,739 --> 02:05:03,840
overlay that doesn't allow 100 foot tower.

2372
02:05:03,840 --> 02:05:05,840
Commissioner Sullivan.

2373
02:05:05,840 --> 02:05:09,760
Yes, let me help you out a little bit because Commissioner

2374
02:05:09,760 --> 02:05:13,810
Hatsbeth, I think the way I'm looking at this is that next

2375
02:05:13,810 --> 02:05:17,840
door to the subject property is a two story apartment.

2376
02:05:17,840 --> 02:05:22,840
Across the street is the chemistry department.

2377
02:05:22,840 --> 02:05:26,060
I don't judge heights very well. So I'm assuming that since

2378
02:05:26,060 --> 02:05:29,539
it's three stories, 30 feet. Is that right? I don't know

2379
02:05:29,539 --> 02:05:31,840
how tall is the chemistry building.

2380
02:05:31,840 --> 02:05:37,119
I think it's three stories. Is it more? I mean, I'm asking

2381
02:05:37,119 --> 02:05:38,079
that, you know. I guess it's more than 30 feet. Is it? Okay

2382
02:05:38,079 --> 02:05:39,840
. I don't know how that works.

2383
02:05:39,840 --> 02:05:43,399
So, but I guess the point that I'm looking at is that under

2384
02:05:43,399 --> 02:05:50,100
the current zoning, that if you have a two story apartment

2385
02:05:50,100 --> 02:05:55,239
complex going east, that would then go to 45 feet, which is

2386
02:05:55,239 --> 02:05:59,840
zoned now, to then go to 100 feet, which is zoned now.

2387
02:05:59,840 --> 02:06:03,939
Then you get into commercial, CVS, Jack in the Box, Ori

2388
02:06:03,939 --> 02:06:07,840
ental Garden, Vortmans, and all of that business.

2389
02:06:07,840 --> 02:06:12,220
To the north, you've got apartments, and you go maybe a

2390
02:06:12,220 --> 02:06:16,319
block and a half before you start getting into single

2391
02:06:16,319 --> 02:06:19,840
family or maybe duplex type situations.

2392
02:06:19,840 --> 02:06:26,810
And so I see that this lot is really the transition area

2393
02:06:26,810 --> 02:06:35,840
where you're going from two story to 45 feet to 100 feet.

2394
02:06:35,840 --> 02:06:40,189
Just like we spent way too much time two weeks ago trying

2395
02:06:40,189 --> 02:06:44,840
to figure out how could we get that 100 foot space and

2396
02:06:44,840 --> 02:06:48,840
trying to work out a compromise at 45 feet.

2397
02:06:48,840 --> 02:06:53,060
And that's really what this is already doing for us is kind

2398
02:06:53,060 --> 02:06:54,840
of what I'm thinking.

2399
02:06:54,840 --> 02:06:58,689
And I think that, you know, somebody that could go in and

2400
02:06:58,689 --> 02:07:02,789
develop a portion of this at 45 feet, a portion of it at

2401
02:07:02,789 --> 02:07:07,039
100 feet, while I don't know that 100 feet is necessary, it

2402
02:07:07,039 --> 02:07:09,840
's allowed by current zoning.

2403
02:07:09,840 --> 02:07:11,840
So it'd be okay.

2404
02:07:11,840 --> 02:07:14,840
And so I think that's where that transition phase is.

2405
02:07:14,840 --> 02:07:22,039
I'm going from the private residences moving into the

2406
02:07:22,039 --> 02:07:24,840
commercial area.

2407
02:07:24,840 --> 02:07:29,840
That's kind of the way I'm looking at it.

2408
02:07:29,840 --> 02:07:31,840
Commissioner Roseau.

2409
02:07:31,840 --> 02:07:34,840
Thank you, Chair. Mr. Meltzer, I appreciate you being here.

2410
02:07:34,840 --> 02:07:38,329
Can I just ask a question? You said that you're opposed to

2411
02:07:38,329 --> 02:07:39,840
the 100 foot height.

2412
02:07:39,840 --> 02:07:42,289
You mentioned specifically having an overlay to protect

2413
02:07:42,289 --> 02:07:43,840
against 100 foot height.

2414
02:07:43,840 --> 02:07:49,840
Is that your single contention on the change to DCG?

2415
02:07:49,840 --> 02:07:52,859
Yes, and I think that's what you heard from the previous

2416
02:07:52,859 --> 02:07:55,840
speaker as well is that the scale is incompatible.

2417
02:07:55,840 --> 02:08:00,590
I appreciate that. And to the Commissioner Sullivan's point

2418
02:08:00,590 --> 02:08:03,979
, the transition is not only happening from east to west, it

2419
02:08:03,979 --> 02:08:06,840
also is happening from north, from south to north.

2420
02:08:06,840 --> 02:08:12,149
And to Commissioner Hussman's point, the south is

2421
02:08:12,149 --> 02:08:14,840
university. So that by definition that we all can agree on,

2422
02:08:14,840 --> 02:08:18,840
that property is on the transition.

2423
02:08:18,840 --> 02:08:22,199
And if we look at just the scope of transitioning, it's as

2424
02:08:22,199 --> 02:08:25,659
close to the original apex as Commissioner Hussman said to

2425
02:08:25,659 --> 02:08:26,840
anything else.

2426
02:08:26,840 --> 02:08:29,840
It's literally across the street. So if there was like this

2427
02:08:29,840 --> 02:08:32,840
transition of height, it wouldn't be at the 20 foot level

2428
02:08:32,840 --> 02:08:33,840
because it's not close.

2429
02:08:33,840 --> 02:08:36,149
It would have to be at the upper end of that transition,

2430
02:08:36,149 --> 02:08:38,840
whether that's 100 feet is obviously up for debate.

2431
02:08:38,840 --> 02:08:42,199
But it certainly by proximity would be at the very, very

2432
02:08:42,199 --> 02:08:45,489
most dense classification of transition because it's

2433
02:08:45,489 --> 02:08:47,840
literally across the street from the university.

2434
02:08:47,840 --> 02:08:51,310
That chemistry building is way taller, 30 feet. But more

2435
02:08:51,310 --> 02:08:54,689
over, we can't assume the applicant is doing anything with

2436
02:08:54,689 --> 02:08:55,840
that property.

2437
02:08:55,840 --> 02:08:57,640
We can't assume they're putting 100 feet. And by density

2438
02:08:57,640 --> 02:09:01,109
rule, I can't in my mind fathom how 100 foot even make any

2439
02:09:01,109 --> 02:09:02,840
sense or if it's possible.

2440
02:09:02,840 --> 02:09:06,020
It's very difficult for me to kind of fathom if that's even

2441
02:09:06,020 --> 02:09:08,460
possible. But if we look at other uses, maybe they just

2442
02:09:08,460 --> 02:09:09,840
want to put a restaurant there.

2443
02:09:09,840 --> 02:09:12,680
They can't put a restaurant there now. And so if we look

2444
02:09:12,680 --> 02:09:15,989
holistically about the possibilities that they can do or

2445
02:09:15,989 --> 02:09:18,310
anyone else if they sell the property or whoever takes

2446
02:09:18,310 --> 02:09:20,840
control of it, we're looking at what they can do.

2447
02:09:20,840 --> 02:09:25,449
And so it seems as though as staff has has diagnosed this,

2448
02:09:25,449 --> 02:09:30,060
that it is in accordance with the future land use map, the

2449
02:09:30,060 --> 02:09:34,840
2030 plan as part of that transitioning down.

2450
02:09:34,840 --> 02:09:38,920
And so those are my thoughts. I appreciate your feedback

2451
02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:39,840
and your being here.

2452
02:09:39,840 --> 02:09:44,199
Yes, as I indicated before, the debt in 2030 plan calls for

2453
02:09:44,199 --> 02:09:45,840
multiple small area plans.

2454
02:09:45,840 --> 02:09:49,939
And the essence of my presentation was that the fact that

2455
02:09:49,939 --> 02:09:54,149
all of these areas today have a common designation fails to

2456
02:09:54,149 --> 02:09:57,840
realize the distinctions within those areas.

2457
02:09:57,840 --> 02:10:01,479
So I believe you're in the work session and I engaged in

2458
02:10:01,479 --> 02:10:04,840
that discussion to segment those areas out.

2459
02:10:04,840 --> 02:10:08,250
I 100 percent agree with that. But it seems as though the

2460
02:10:08,250 --> 02:10:11,840
yes, no decision on the table tonight would be the reason.

2461
02:10:11,840 --> 02:10:13,810
I'm not I don't show it's in our purview to start

2462
02:10:13,810 --> 02:10:16,239
introducing small area plans in this meeting, although I

2463
02:10:16,239 --> 02:10:18,840
would love to entertain that conversation going forward.

2464
02:10:18,840 --> 02:10:21,840
No, no, no would be a way to buy time as well.

2465
02:10:21,840 --> 02:10:25,489
And I propose that alternative way to rather than to merely

2466
02:10:25,489 --> 02:10:29,100
say no, that I'm learning from from attending and paying

2467
02:10:29,100 --> 02:10:30,840
attention to all that.

2468
02:10:30,840 --> 02:10:33,800
Sometimes you can do things with conditions that the only

2469
02:10:33,800 --> 02:10:35,840
choices are not. Yes or no.

2470
02:10:35,840 --> 02:10:39,069
In fact, the lack of of compromise you may feel is because

2471
02:10:39,069 --> 02:10:41,840
you present cards that say oppose support.

2472
02:10:41,840 --> 02:10:44,960
Those are the choices. And you'll see on the next one. I I

2473
02:10:44,960 --> 02:10:46,840
chose a different alternative.

2474
02:10:46,840 --> 02:10:49,149
You know, you want a more creative exchange with the

2475
02:10:49,149 --> 02:10:49,840
community. Sure.

2476
02:10:49,840 --> 02:10:54,090
So and this but as far as your suggestion that it could be

2477
02:10:54,090 --> 02:10:57,829
a restaurant or a commercial use, I don't I'm not here

2478
02:10:57,829 --> 02:10:59,840
presenting any objection to that.

2479
02:10:59,840 --> 02:11:04,359
It's just to scale. And if you are at the very upper end of

2480
02:11:04,359 --> 02:11:08,409
matching off to the chemistry building, you might be

2481
02:11:08,409 --> 02:11:11,840
gradual from that end in terms of achieving gradual

2482
02:11:11,840 --> 02:11:11,840
transition.

2483
02:11:11,840 --> 02:11:15,250
But then you're not gradual in terms of the surrounding

2484
02:11:15,250 --> 02:11:15,840
area.

2485
02:11:15,840 --> 02:11:20,189
And as far as whether it's feasible for them to put a

2486
02:11:20,189 --> 02:11:24,060
hundred foot tower on the property, that isn't the decision

2487
02:11:24,060 --> 02:11:24,840
before you.

2488
02:11:24,840 --> 02:11:27,939
The decision before you is whether you will permit that,

2489
02:11:27,939 --> 02:11:31,020
because if you just say yes with no further elaboration or

2490
02:11:31,020 --> 02:11:34,840
condition, you are saying yes to that possibility.

2491
02:11:34,840 --> 02:11:39,840
Thank you. Thank you, sir. See no further questions.

2492
02:11:39,840 --> 02:11:42,300
And this is a public hearing. Anyone who would like to

2493
02:11:42,300 --> 02:11:45,840
speak on this item, please come forward at this time.

2494
02:11:45,840 --> 02:11:51,840
Anyone wishing to speak? Commissioner Beck.

2495
02:11:51,840 --> 02:11:54,069
Thank you, Chair. I have to close the public hearing yet,

2496
02:11:54,069 --> 02:11:56,029
so I was going to give you the opportunity if you had

2497
02:11:56,029 --> 02:11:56,840
another question.

2498
02:11:56,840 --> 02:12:01,189
Well, I wanted to see if we bring the applicant back now.

2499
02:12:01,189 --> 02:12:07,840
Sure. I'm going to ask him a question.

2500
02:12:07,840 --> 02:12:11,270
Thank you, Mr. Chang. And let me just kind of reiterate

2501
02:12:11,270 --> 02:12:15,819
what I said before, but point out you've been in business

2502
02:12:15,819 --> 02:12:18,840
here in Denton for looks like about 30 years.

2503
02:12:18,840 --> 02:12:21,840
Is that about right? Yes, we are a family owned business.

2504
02:12:21,840 --> 02:12:23,840
We've been here since 82. Right.

2505
02:12:23,840 --> 02:12:26,859
So you're committed to Denton. That's obvious. And we're

2506
02:12:26,859 --> 02:12:29,359
glad you're here, too. We love Denton. We need more people

2507
02:12:29,359 --> 02:12:29,840
like you.

2508
02:12:29,840 --> 02:12:34,189
So based on what you've heard tonight, my reservation here

2509
02:12:34,189 --> 02:12:36,840
is more the type of dwelling it is.

2510
02:12:36,840 --> 02:12:40,170
The height is important, too, but, you know, it would be

2511
02:12:40,170 --> 02:12:42,930
more it would be more critical if we were closer to

2512
02:12:42,930 --> 02:12:44,840
historical neighborhoods.

2513
02:12:44,840 --> 02:12:49,329
But again, being a part of it as you are and want to see

2514
02:12:49,329 --> 02:12:53,840
Denton's future in a progressive way,

2515
02:12:53,840 --> 02:13:00,560
do you see any advantages to developing your property in a

2516
02:13:00,560 --> 02:13:08,430
way that would accommodate units that aren't supportive of

2517
02:13:08,430 --> 02:13:10,840
a transit population like students?

2518
02:13:10,840 --> 02:13:14,130
In other words, multifamily dwellings, four and five

2519
02:13:14,130 --> 02:13:15,840
stories high, probably.

2520
02:13:15,840 --> 02:13:20,199
But then accommodate residents who are probably going to

2521
02:13:20,199 --> 02:13:24,640
sit down roots here, be here for a long time and contribute

2522
02:13:24,640 --> 02:13:27,810
something to Denton's future as opposed to a transit

2523
02:13:27,810 --> 02:13:29,840
population like students.

2524
02:13:29,840 --> 02:13:36,039
So the question is, do you see any development in the

2525
02:13:36,039 --> 02:13:42,340
future of this? You mentioned it's going to be with your

2526
02:13:42,340 --> 02:13:45,840
office, your real estate office and multifamily uses.

2527
02:13:45,840 --> 02:13:50,899
So do you see your development excluding SROs and being

2528
02:13:50,899 --> 02:13:56,539
something that's more family oriented? Does that make sense

2529
02:13:56,539 --> 02:13:56,840
? Am I?

2530
02:13:56,840 --> 02:14:01,199
You're asking me if I'm going to exclude SROs from any

2531
02:14:01,199 --> 02:14:01,840
thinking.

2532
02:14:01,840 --> 02:14:06,189
In light of the fact that it deals with the transit

2533
02:14:06,189 --> 02:14:06,840
population, yes, I am.

2534
02:14:06,840 --> 02:14:11,199
I think it impacts the way a neighborhood develops over

2535
02:14:11,199 --> 02:14:11,840
time.

2536
02:14:11,840 --> 02:14:16,989
And in my opinion, a transit population is good in some

2537
02:14:16,989 --> 02:14:21,979
areas, but for future growth, I think it hurts more than

2538
02:14:21,979 --> 02:14:22,840
helps.

2539
02:14:22,840 --> 02:14:26,840
Yes. We've had that under consideration.

2540
02:14:26,840 --> 02:14:31,279
We have not had any plans, whether SRO or just but we

2541
02:14:31,279 --> 02:14:36,460
mainly deal in multifamily where people stay and go through

2542
02:14:36,460 --> 02:14:37,840
four years.

2543
02:14:37,840 --> 02:14:41,439
We've developed here before. We've built 24 unit apartment

2544
02:14:41,439 --> 02:14:44,210
complexes here before, as well as a 20 unit apartment

2545
02:14:44,210 --> 02:14:44,840
complex.

2546
02:14:44,840 --> 02:14:49,840
So we are in the business to keep people staying.

2547
02:14:49,840 --> 02:14:52,140
OK, that's the sense I wanted to get because from a

2548
02:14:52,140 --> 02:14:54,899
business perspective, it helps you where you don't have a

2549
02:14:54,899 --> 02:14:55,840
lot of turnover.

2550
02:14:55,840 --> 02:14:58,130
That's right. It seems with the transit population like

2551
02:14:58,130 --> 02:14:59,840
students, you're going to have a lot of turnover.

2552
02:14:59,840 --> 02:15:05,520
So just again, speaking hypothetically here, it seems like

2553
02:15:05,520 --> 02:15:08,310
it would serve your interest as well as the interest of

2554
02:15:08,310 --> 02:15:12,840
Denton's future growth that we do avoid SROs where we can.

2555
02:15:12,840 --> 02:15:17,060
It's a situation that could get worse over time and we

2556
02:15:17,060 --> 02:15:19,840
could actually overbuild on SROs.

2557
02:15:19,840 --> 02:15:23,130
So just throwing that out there and for something for you

2558
02:15:23,130 --> 02:15:24,840
to consider in the future.

2559
02:15:24,840 --> 02:15:26,840
Yes, we will have that under consideration.

2560
02:15:26,840 --> 02:15:27,840
OK, all right.

2561
02:15:27,840 --> 02:15:29,840
I have one more question for you. Commissioner Ellis.

2562
02:15:29,840 --> 02:15:32,840
Thank you, Chair. Hi, Mr. Chang.

2563
02:15:32,840 --> 02:15:37,989
Hearing some of the citizens concerns today, would you be

2564
02:15:37,989 --> 02:15:43,029
amenable to any kind of overlay if this were to be approved

2565
02:15:43,029 --> 02:15:46,840
by scaling down the height of the building?

2566
02:15:46,840 --> 02:15:48,840
We would be open to that.

2567
02:15:48,840 --> 02:15:52,260
But at the same time, I'd like to comment that I've been

2568
02:15:52,260 --> 02:15:56,840
following this Park 7 and Park 7 is maybe two blocks away.

2569
02:15:56,840 --> 02:16:00,859
And there's already been a lot of struggles with the PNZ

2570
02:16:00,859 --> 02:16:02,840
and the neighborhood.

2571
02:16:02,840 --> 02:16:06,069
And they already have 10 stories that they can just build

2572
02:16:06,069 --> 02:16:06,840
like that.

2573
02:16:06,840 --> 02:16:09,930
And we, on the other hand, we're right across the street

2574
02:16:09,930 --> 02:16:10,840
from campus.

2575
02:16:10,840 --> 02:16:14,840
And if I haven't said how many stories we haven't had any

2576
02:16:14,840 --> 02:16:19,840
plans yet, but if we can't build it, how can they build it?

2577
02:16:19,840 --> 02:16:23,840
I don't see what the logic would be in that.

2578
02:16:23,840 --> 02:16:29,420
And we are not we even we have not had 100 foot planned yet

2579
02:16:29,420 --> 02:16:29,840
.

2580
02:16:29,840 --> 02:16:31,840
We haven't had any development plans yet.

2581
02:16:31,840 --> 02:16:36,500
But we just want to get the zoning change such that we can

2582
02:16:36,500 --> 02:16:38,840
proceed with the plans.

2583
02:16:38,840 --> 02:16:40,840
Great. I see no other questions.

2584
02:16:40,840 --> 02:16:42,840
Thank you, sir, for coming back up.

2585
02:16:42,840 --> 02:16:44,840
Again, this is a public hearing.

2586
02:16:44,840 --> 02:16:49,200
Anyone who would like to speak on this item, please come

2587
02:16:49,200 --> 02:16:50,840
forward at this time.

2588
02:16:50,840 --> 02:16:54,440
Seeing none, I will close the public hearing and open the

2589
02:16:54,440 --> 02:16:56,840
floor for a motion or discussion.

2590
02:16:56,840 --> 02:17:03,840
Commissioner Hutzbeth. Chair, I'm going to ask.

2591
02:17:03,840 --> 02:17:08,840
Use your expertise to give me some round numbers.

2592
02:17:08,840 --> 02:17:14,840
So I think we were talking approaching two acres or so.

2593
02:17:14,840 --> 02:17:17,659
This this property all total around there a little over a

2594
02:17:17,659 --> 02:17:18,840
little over an acre.

2595
02:17:18,840 --> 02:17:23,899
Okay. So my question to you is, can you give me generally

2596
02:17:23,899 --> 02:17:27,840
not not hypothetical the footprint needed for what?

2597
02:17:27,840 --> 02:17:31,440
Like when you're talking when you're building multifamily

2598
02:17:31,440 --> 02:17:34,840
type building, just hypothetical and you have and assume

2599
02:17:34,840 --> 02:17:38,350
you have a little less than two acres and assume it's in a

2600
02:17:38,350 --> 02:17:39,840
dense area.

2601
02:17:39,840 --> 02:17:41,840
How much what does that square foot look like?

2602
02:17:41,840 --> 02:17:46,729
I mean, you have to how does that stack up or how how do

2603
02:17:46,729 --> 02:17:48,840
you use that space? How much space does it take per story

2604
02:17:48,840 --> 02:17:48,840
per parking?

2605
02:17:48,840 --> 02:17:50,840
Can you give me some sense of that?

2606
02:17:50,840 --> 02:17:54,690
I can't specifically other than just to say that an acre is

2607
02:17:54,690 --> 02:17:58,840
forty three thousand five hundred and sixty square feet.

2608
02:17:58,840 --> 02:18:03,840
How many forty three thousand five hundred and sixty.

2609
02:18:03,840 --> 02:18:05,840
Okay.

2610
02:18:05,840 --> 02:18:09,500
So that's the maximum footprint on an acre and then

2611
02:18:09,500 --> 02:18:12,559
whatever falls inside that. So if it's an acre and a

2612
02:18:12,559 --> 02:18:14,440
quarter, it's one point two five times forty three five

2613
02:18:14,440 --> 02:18:14,840
sixty.

2614
02:18:14,840 --> 02:18:18,200
And then whatever the setbacks are. So I mean, you can

2615
02:18:18,200 --> 02:18:20,840
cover a lot of property with it.

2616
02:18:20,840 --> 02:18:23,840
Okay. Structure.

2617
02:18:23,840 --> 02:18:26,840
Commissioner Beck. Thank you, Chair.

2618
02:18:26,840 --> 02:18:28,840
This is a tough one.

2619
02:18:28,840 --> 02:18:33,190
Obviously, the concern here for height and density close to

2620
02:18:33,190 --> 02:18:37,260
the sensitive neighborhoods is always going to be an issue

2621
02:18:37,260 --> 02:18:37,840
with me.

2622
02:18:37,840 --> 02:18:40,520
And I, you know, I have an ear and a heart for the people

2623
02:18:40,520 --> 02:18:41,840
that live in that area.

2624
02:18:41,840 --> 02:18:48,100
If I were to vote for this, I would do so reluctantly and

2625
02:18:48,100 --> 02:18:52,350
and hopefully maybe take the same in a direction where an

2626
02:18:52,350 --> 02:18:56,200
overlay could be applied here to at least ameliorate that

2627
02:18:56,200 --> 02:18:57,840
concern of height and density.

2628
02:18:57,840 --> 02:19:02,200
By right, the applicant, you know, has the right to, you

2629
02:19:02,200 --> 02:19:05,229
know, at least on those two parcels to build something up

2630
02:19:05,229 --> 02:19:07,819
to a hundred feet and something up to forty five feet on

2631
02:19:07,819 --> 02:19:08,840
the other one.

2632
02:19:08,840 --> 02:19:12,030
And design wise, I would think that what you've got now,

2633
02:19:12,030 --> 02:19:13,840
you could accommodate that.

2634
02:19:13,840 --> 02:19:20,450
But anyway, just need to put out there that this is a tough

2635
02:19:20,450 --> 02:19:21,840
one for me.

2636
02:19:21,840 --> 02:19:24,809
I'm sorry if I find myself voting for it. I do so reluct

2637
02:19:24,809 --> 02:19:27,790
antly with the hope that we can still address the issues

2638
02:19:27,790 --> 02:19:29,840
that concern the neighborhood.

2639
02:19:29,840 --> 02:19:31,840
Commissioner Ellis.

2640
02:19:31,840 --> 02:19:35,010
And just to further the discussion, I'm having a hard time

2641
02:19:35,010 --> 02:19:37,840
with this as well as I addressed in work session.

2642
02:19:37,840 --> 02:19:41,170
Just, you know, we've got unplatted property and I

2643
02:19:41,170 --> 02:19:44,840
understand staff's recommendation and the applicant's

2644
02:19:44,840 --> 02:19:47,840
desire to make all of these properties one.

2645
02:19:47,840 --> 02:19:50,899
But when it is replatted, it's a considerable large piece

2646
02:19:50,899 --> 02:19:52,840
of property with and with D.C.G.

2647
02:19:52,840 --> 02:19:56,840
zoning does allow a very large development there.

2648
02:19:56,840 --> 02:19:59,790
We keep coming back to the same area north of the

2649
02:19:59,790 --> 02:20:00,840
university.

2650
02:20:00,840 --> 02:20:04,420
This particular area is not covered by the Fry Street

2651
02:20:04,420 --> 02:20:08,409
overlay, which was clarified in work session, but just a

2652
02:20:08,409 --> 02:20:09,840
block away it is.

2653
02:20:09,840 --> 02:20:13,500
If this does get approved and we've got a hundred foot

2654
02:20:13,500 --> 02:20:16,840
building on on that footprint, you know,

2655
02:20:16,840 --> 02:20:19,840
Burtman's that's still out there.

2656
02:20:19,840 --> 02:20:21,840
Council has kept that alive. That's just a block away.

2657
02:20:21,840 --> 02:20:23,840
I mean, I think that brings them back.

2658
02:20:23,840 --> 02:20:27,840
I think it opens up to what Commissioner Sullivan said.

2659
02:20:27,840 --> 02:20:32,440
And that whole area is just going to kind of trickle down

2660
02:20:32,440 --> 02:20:34,840
or up with with this case.

2661
02:20:34,840 --> 02:20:41,170
So I think we as a city needed to find what this transition

2662
02:20:41,170 --> 02:20:42,840
needs to be.

2663
02:20:42,840 --> 02:20:44,840
What does it look like?

2664
02:20:44,840 --> 02:20:48,840
I understand what the future land use map looks like.

2665
02:20:48,840 --> 02:20:50,840
But but I mean, that's that's a living document.

2666
02:20:50,840 --> 02:20:53,829
That's something that we still have to study because we

2667
02:20:53,829 --> 02:20:55,840
keep coming back to the same area.

2668
02:20:55,840 --> 02:20:59,000
We keep coming back with this desires for these large scale

2669
02:20:59,000 --> 02:21:02,840
developments and we keep finding ourselves,

2670
02:21:02,840 --> 02:21:05,829
at least I do for sure, on this commission, find myself

2671
02:21:05,829 --> 02:21:10,840
wondering if that's really what we want in that transition

2672
02:21:10,840 --> 02:21:12,840
area of the university.

2673
02:21:12,840 --> 02:21:16,780
Putting a student housing project in there, I know it's

2674
02:21:16,780 --> 02:21:19,840
across the street from the university,

2675
02:21:19,840 --> 02:21:22,190
but perhaps that's not the best use between two historic

2676
02:21:22,190 --> 02:21:22,840
districts.

2677
02:21:22,840 --> 02:21:27,200
We don't address use for staff, faculty at UNT or graduate

2678
02:21:27,200 --> 02:21:32,190
students, older students, other developments might be more

2679
02:21:32,190 --> 02:21:32,840
appropriate there.

2680
02:21:32,840 --> 02:21:37,790
And so I'm having a hard time getting behind this and the

2681
02:21:37,790 --> 02:21:41,840
DCG and what it allows.

2682
02:21:41,840 --> 02:21:43,840
Commissioner Hussbuth.

2683
02:21:43,840 --> 02:21:44,840
Thank you, Chair.

2684
02:21:44,840 --> 02:21:50,700
Well, again, I can't reconcile anything if we can't put an

2685
02:21:50,700 --> 02:21:52,840
apartment there.

2686
02:21:52,840 --> 02:21:56,540
One, I'm not a builder and I can't get the information I

2687
02:21:56,540 --> 02:21:57,840
need on the fly.

2688
02:21:57,840 --> 02:22:01,840
But simple math says I don't even think it works there.

2689
02:22:01,840 --> 02:22:06,229
And even if it does work there, I would strongly advocate

2690
02:22:06,229 --> 02:22:10,530
for them to contact Park 7 and lure that thing closer to

2691
02:22:10,530 --> 02:22:15,840
the university and save the neighborhood.

2692
02:22:15,840 --> 02:22:21,840
I think it transitions to the neighborhood.

2693
02:22:21,840 --> 02:22:27,680
And so I'm going to move that we approve this because if we

2694
02:22:27,680 --> 02:22:33,840
, again, if you cannot put an apartment complex next to

2695
02:22:33,840 --> 02:22:35,840
across the street from the university,

2696
02:22:35,840 --> 02:22:42,840
then that puts us consistency wise in a real tough area.

2697
02:22:42,840 --> 02:22:45,840
And there's no family I know.

2698
02:22:45,840 --> 02:22:50,440
I respect the thought of a family living there, but it's a

2699
02:22:50,440 --> 02:22:55,500
one way street, 20 miles per hour, around a whole bunch of

2700
02:22:55,500 --> 02:22:57,840
kids and there's no parking.

2701
02:22:57,840 --> 02:23:01,840
That's not utopia for any family I know.

2702
02:23:01,840 --> 02:23:04,840
That's not a goal of any family I know.

2703
02:23:04,840 --> 02:23:06,840
Again, you can't go out.

2704
02:23:06,840 --> 02:23:10,549
You have to go towards CVS, make a left, then make another

2705
02:23:10,549 --> 02:23:13,840
left to get out of your neighborhood every day.

2706
02:23:13,840 --> 02:23:15,840
You can't just say I'm going to go right or left.

2707
02:23:15,840 --> 02:23:20,840
It's not conducive to a family environment.

2708
02:23:20,840 --> 02:23:22,840
It's 20 miles per hour.

2709
02:23:22,840 --> 02:23:29,840
So I'm going to move approval and we'll see.

2710
02:23:29,840 --> 02:23:30,840
Thank you.

2711
02:23:30,840 --> 02:23:33,840
>> Commissioner Osello.

2712
02:23:33,840 --> 02:23:34,840
>> Thank you, Chair.

2713
02:23:34,840 --> 02:23:38,250
I have a couple points here and then to spoil the end, I'm

2714
02:23:38,250 --> 02:23:39,840
going to second this.

2715
02:23:39,840 --> 02:23:43,079
First, I agree with Commissioner Ellis that there is

2716
02:23:43,079 --> 02:23:46,110
needing to be maybe a more clear definition of what

2717
02:23:46,110 --> 02:23:47,840
transition looks like.

2718
02:23:47,840 --> 02:23:50,520
But I don't know if that's necessarily for staff to present

2719
02:23:50,520 --> 02:23:51,840
to us and just telling us.

2720
02:23:51,840 --> 02:23:54,579
But I think it needs to go down to a zoning level or an

2721
02:23:54,579 --> 02:23:57,819
overlay level or a small area plan level in which there's

2722
02:23:57,819 --> 02:24:00,409
not staff coming and saying this is designed to be a

2723
02:24:00,409 --> 02:24:00,840
transition.

2724
02:24:00,840 --> 02:24:01,840
We get that.

2725
02:24:01,840 --> 02:24:05,129
What's lacking is what's actually permitted, what's limited

2726
02:24:05,129 --> 02:24:07,840
, what actually does the transition look like?

2727
02:24:07,840 --> 02:24:11,069
And so I think that's the ongoing conversation that we're

2728
02:24:11,069 --> 02:24:13,840
going to have and even more so later tonight.

2729
02:24:13,840 --> 02:24:17,549
But in regards to this property, I think Commissioner Ose

2730
02:24:17,549 --> 02:24:21,309
llo also mentioned it's the same area that keeps on coming

2731
02:24:21,309 --> 02:24:21,840
up.

2732
02:24:21,840 --> 02:24:25,059
This is the same area as Park 7 in that it is not part of a

2733
02:24:25,059 --> 02:24:29,309
historic district on either the historic, the West Oak or H

2734
02:24:29,309 --> 02:24:30,840
ickory side.

2735
02:24:30,840 --> 02:24:34,170
It is this weird peninsula of transition in which if you

2736
02:24:34,170 --> 02:24:37,129
just look at a future land use map and point to this

2737
02:24:37,129 --> 02:24:39,840
property and say that's going to be an apartment complex,

2738
02:24:39,840 --> 02:24:40,840
in my mind, I reconcile it.

2739
02:24:40,840 --> 02:24:44,040
It looks like a piece of property that is an apartment

2740
02:24:44,040 --> 02:24:44,840
complex.

2741
02:24:44,840 --> 02:24:48,549
And moreover, that's got to be the most prime location for

2742
02:24:48,549 --> 02:24:50,840
a chemistry student possible.

2743
02:24:50,840 --> 02:24:55,840
I mean, it just screams science student living there.

2744
02:24:55,840 --> 02:24:59,840
But additional to that, the Park 7 development was on

2745
02:24:59,840 --> 02:25:01,840
almost two acres of land.

2746
02:25:01,840 --> 02:25:06,440
We saw their 100 story design and I just cannot reconcile

2747
02:25:06,440 --> 02:25:10,260
that that would even fit on less acreage and even a skin

2748
02:25:10,260 --> 02:25:11,840
nier plot of land.

2749
02:25:11,840 --> 02:25:15,059
So I just don't, I'd be impressed if there's 100 feet

2750
02:25:15,059 --> 02:25:15,840
possible.

2751
02:25:15,840 --> 02:25:17,840
But regardless of that, I'm not making my decision on that.

2752
02:25:17,840 --> 02:25:18,840
I just, food for thought.

2753
02:25:18,840 --> 02:25:19,840
I don't think 100 feet is possible.

2754
02:25:19,840 --> 02:25:23,139
But my main point is this, we see developments come in here

2755
02:25:23,139 --> 02:25:26,049
all the time for SROs or apartment complexes and a

2756
02:25:26,049 --> 02:25:28,629
recurring theme previously that hasn't been brought up in a

2757
02:25:28,629 --> 02:25:31,959
while, these outside companies coming in, they build up and

2758
02:25:31,959 --> 02:25:32,840
then they sell.

2759
02:25:32,840 --> 02:25:36,260
When they have one manager there or they're just kind of a

2760
02:25:36,260 --> 02:25:39,530
fly by night that come in able to build and then they can

2761
02:25:39,530 --> 02:25:40,840
get out of here.

2762
02:25:40,840 --> 02:25:41,840
This is not the case.

2763
02:25:41,840 --> 02:25:42,840
They've been here 35 years.

2764
02:25:42,840 --> 02:25:44,840
I feel like they're invested in the city.

2765
02:25:44,840 --> 02:25:47,059
I don't feel that they're going to do something that

2766
02:25:47,059 --> 02:25:49,840
determines one, their business or their property value.

2767
02:25:49,840 --> 02:25:52,840
They don't have any current SRO projects.

2768
02:25:52,840 --> 02:25:55,020
It doesn't sound like it sounds like they're all multif

2769
02:25:55,020 --> 02:25:55,840
amily projects.

2770
02:25:55,840 --> 02:25:59,440
So we're making assumptions that they're going to build 100

2771
02:25:59,440 --> 02:26:02,670
foot SRO that I think is maybe presumptuous and further not

2772
02:26:02,670 --> 02:26:04,840
to the point of this rezoning case.

2773
02:26:04,840 --> 02:26:09,260
And so as staff has recommended, I second Commissioner Huts

2774
02:26:09,260 --> 02:26:12,840
pitz move to approve.

2775
02:26:12,840 --> 02:26:15,840
Commissioner Ellis, we have a first and a second.

2776
02:26:15,840 --> 02:26:16,840
Thank you.

2777
02:26:16,840 --> 02:26:21,190
I would just like to comment on Commissioner Hutspitz and

2778
02:26:21,190 --> 02:26:22,840
Commissioner Roselle.

2779
02:26:22,840 --> 02:26:24,840
First of all, I never said multifamily.

2780
02:26:24,840 --> 02:26:26,840
I can't see here.

2781
02:26:26,840 --> 02:26:31,840
It's my fear of what DCG allows and what it could be.

2782
02:26:31,840 --> 02:26:35,840
And it's absolutely no disrespect to the Chang family.

2783
02:26:35,840 --> 02:26:38,399
I understand how long you've been here and I walk by your

2784
02:26:38,399 --> 02:26:40,840
properties every single day on Bernard Street.

2785
02:26:40,840 --> 02:26:43,840
And lovely complexes.

2786
02:26:43,840 --> 02:26:47,840
This is not against you and what you do in this city.

2787
02:26:47,840 --> 02:26:49,840
I appreciate the developments that you have.

2788
02:26:49,840 --> 02:26:52,840
This is a protection thing for me.

2789
02:26:52,840 --> 02:26:54,840
We make the zoning change.

2790
02:26:54,840 --> 02:26:56,840
We replat it.

2791
02:26:56,840 --> 02:27:00,840
It just opens up a door that I'm not comfortable with.

2792
02:27:00,840 --> 02:27:05,840
And I do think that it will have a trickle effect.

2793
02:27:05,840 --> 02:27:08,840
I'm not against multifamily here.

2794
02:27:08,840 --> 02:27:10,840
Maybe it belongs to a chemistry student.

2795
02:27:10,840 --> 02:27:13,840
Maybe it belongs to a more grown up person at UNT.

2796
02:27:13,840 --> 02:27:17,170
Maybe that's what that zone should be between these

2797
02:27:17,170 --> 02:27:18,840
historic districts.

2798
02:27:18,840 --> 02:27:19,840
I don't know.

2799
02:27:19,840 --> 02:27:22,520
I would love that discussion and I would love us to come up

2800
02:27:22,520 --> 02:27:26,209
with what this transition point north of the university

2801
02:27:26,209 --> 02:27:26,840
should look like.

2802
02:27:26,840 --> 02:27:28,840
I would like that definition.

2803
02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:31,659
But I'm not against this developer and I'm certainly not

2804
02:27:31,659 --> 02:27:33,840
against the multifamily project here.

2805
02:27:33,840 --> 02:27:39,790
I'm against the scale that this allows when we make the

2806
02:27:39,790 --> 02:27:41,840
zoning change.

2807
02:27:41,840 --> 02:27:43,840
Commissioner Sullivan.

2808
02:27:43,840 --> 02:27:46,520
I'm in agreement with Commissioner Ellis from the

2809
02:27:46,520 --> 02:27:49,840
standpoint that has nothing to do with the people involved.

2810
02:27:49,840 --> 02:27:53,549
In fact, we talked about this in our work session that we

2811
02:27:53,549 --> 02:27:55,840
can't look at what's here now.

2812
02:27:55,840 --> 02:27:57,899
We've got to look at what's the general use and when is

2813
02:27:57,899 --> 02:28:00,579
that going to happen and how could it happen and what would

2814
02:28:00,579 --> 02:28:01,840
happen in the future.

2815
02:28:01,840 --> 02:28:06,190
And I think that's my biggest concern given the fact that

2816
02:28:06,190 --> 02:28:11,510
in both designations, fraternities, sororities, dormitories

2817
02:28:11,510 --> 02:28:11,840
,

2818
02:28:11,840 --> 02:28:16,639
multifamily housing, all of that thing is the same for both

2819
02:28:16,639 --> 02:28:18,840
of these designations.

2820
02:28:18,840 --> 02:28:21,540
Granted, you can't have a bar or restaurant under the

2821
02:28:21,540 --> 02:28:22,840
current designation.

2822
02:28:22,840 --> 02:28:27,840
But again, I don't see that being at that area anyway.

2823
02:28:27,840 --> 02:28:32,270
And so I'm not thinking about what necessarily the Chang

2824
02:28:32,270 --> 02:28:33,840
family would do.

2825
02:28:33,840 --> 02:28:39,360
I guess I'm thinking about what if we change this and then

2826
02:28:39,360 --> 02:28:42,540
somebody comes to them and say, hey, have I got a deal for

2827
02:28:42,540 --> 02:28:42,840
you?

2828
02:28:42,840 --> 02:28:44,840
I will buy your property.

2829
02:28:44,840 --> 02:28:49,200
And they're here to make a living and we all understand

2830
02:28:49,200 --> 02:28:49,840
that.

2831
02:28:49,840 --> 02:28:53,709
And somebody gives them something they can't refuse, then

2832
02:28:53,709 --> 02:28:54,840
they sell it.

2833
02:28:54,840 --> 02:29:02,280
And now the next SRO group or something goes in that is 100

2834
02:29:02,280 --> 02:29:05,840
feet all the way across the acre and whatever it takes.

2835
02:29:05,840 --> 02:29:08,569
So that's I think that's my biggest concern is the what ifs

2836
02:29:08,569 --> 02:29:08,840
.

2837
02:29:08,840 --> 02:29:11,719
And that's kind of what I was struggling with earlier in

2838
02:29:11,719 --> 02:29:12,840
the work session.

2839
02:29:12,840 --> 02:29:16,200
But more from the standpoint is, gosh, I wish we had a set

2840
02:29:16,200 --> 02:29:18,840
of plans to know what they're planning on.

2841
02:29:18,840 --> 02:29:21,840
That would make it a little bit easier.

2842
02:29:21,840 --> 02:29:27,209
And so I just I just can't see in the future well enough to

2843
02:29:27,209 --> 02:29:32,350
know or to trust what could happen if the Chang family were

2844
02:29:32,350 --> 02:29:33,840
to sell out.

2845
02:29:33,840 --> 02:29:37,290
And another Park seven or whoever comes in and does the

2846
02:29:37,290 --> 02:29:40,840
same thing as we're dealt with a couple of weeks ago.

2847
02:29:40,840 --> 02:29:47,139
So I'm going to be supporting the motion that we have

2848
02:29:47,139 --> 02:29:48,840
before us.

2849
02:29:48,840 --> 02:29:52,840
One reason is because staff has recommended it.

2850
02:29:52,840 --> 02:29:56,360
That's been on the last two issues before us that I think

2851
02:29:56,360 --> 02:29:58,840
is an appropriate use for the area.

2852
02:29:58,840 --> 02:30:01,940
I also think that there's probably not a more appropriate

2853
02:30:01,940 --> 02:30:04,840
use right across the street from the university.

2854
02:30:04,840 --> 02:30:09,059
It is not in either one of the overlays of the historic

2855
02:30:09,059 --> 02:30:09,840
districts.

2856
02:30:09,840 --> 02:30:11,840
Part of the property is already D.C.G.

2857
02:30:11,840 --> 02:30:15,649
And so they have another parcel that allows them to do a

2858
02:30:15,649 --> 02:30:17,840
more uniform development.

2859
02:30:17,840 --> 02:30:20,170
They don't know that it will be 100 feet tall across the

2860
02:30:20,170 --> 02:30:20,840
whole thing.

2861
02:30:20,840 --> 02:30:24,129
It may be like what was brought before us a couple of weeks

2862
02:30:24,129 --> 02:30:27,840
ago that it's 48 feet or whatever and neither parts 50

2863
02:30:27,840 --> 02:30:28,840
something.

2864
02:30:28,840 --> 02:30:35,840
And it allows them I think probably the opportunity to do a

2865
02:30:35,840 --> 02:30:37,840
a better overall design.

2866
02:30:37,840 --> 02:30:41,489
That was my concern with Park seven is that we were going

2867
02:30:41,489 --> 02:30:46,549
to cut off our nose to spite our face for pushing them to

2868
02:30:46,549 --> 02:30:46,840
build the maximum.

2869
02:30:46,840 --> 02:30:49,840
They can build in some areas versus a compromise.

2870
02:30:49,840 --> 02:30:50,840
You know what?

2871
02:30:50,840 --> 02:30:54,000
They probably are going to build that tall overall and give

2872
02:30:54,000 --> 02:30:56,840
them the flexibility to do something less scale.

2873
02:30:56,840 --> 02:31:00,340
I don't think there's a better place walkability wise right

2874
02:31:00,340 --> 02:31:02,840
across the street from the university.

2875
02:31:02,840 --> 02:31:07,190
And so for that reason, I'm going to be supporting the

2876
02:31:07,190 --> 02:31:07,840
motion.

2877
02:31:07,840 --> 02:31:10,840
I think it's a good rezone for the area.

2878
02:31:10,840 --> 02:31:14,739
I'd love to see it redeveloped into something new and nice

2879
02:31:14,739 --> 02:31:18,489
and the fees and the taxes that would come off of that and

2880
02:31:18,489 --> 02:31:20,840
a nicer place for kids to live.

2881
02:31:20,840 --> 02:31:22,840
And so for that, I think it just makes sense.

2882
02:31:22,840 --> 02:31:26,840
And I think it's a a good decision by staff.

2883
02:31:26,840 --> 02:31:29,940
And I'm going to support staff's recommendation and the

2884
02:31:29,940 --> 02:31:31,840
first and the second before us.

2885
02:31:31,840 --> 02:31:33,840
Commissioner Beck.

2886
02:31:33,840 --> 02:31:35,840
Thank you, Chair.

2887
02:31:35,840 --> 02:31:39,030
Just a question before we take this to the vote, probably

2888
02:31:39,030 --> 02:31:40,840
should go to legal, I guess.

2889
02:31:40,840 --> 02:31:48,889
Can we attach an amendment to this that deals with an

2890
02:31:48,889 --> 02:31:50,840
overlay?

2891
02:31:50,840 --> 02:31:51,840
You can.

2892
02:31:51,840 --> 02:31:54,909
I mean, the applicants here, if the applicant is amenable

2893
02:31:54,909 --> 02:31:57,840
to an overlay, that is something you can recommend.

2894
02:31:57,840 --> 02:31:58,840
OK.

2895
02:31:58,840 --> 02:32:00,840
And I guess we need to get him back up here.

2896
02:32:00,840 --> 02:32:07,020
I thought he said he was open to it, but if Mr. Chang,

2897
02:32:07,020 --> 02:32:11,840
would you mind one more time confirming or.

2898
02:32:11,840 --> 02:32:12,840
Yes, we would consider it.

2899
02:32:12,840 --> 02:32:13,840
OK.

2900
02:32:13,840 --> 02:32:19,440
I want to approve this to with just the reservations I have

2901
02:32:19,440 --> 02:32:19,840
.

2902
02:32:19,840 --> 02:32:22,149
But I think I saw you kind of nod your head when

2903
02:32:22,149 --> 02:32:25,489
Commissioner Rizzo said I was saying, you know, you guys

2904
02:32:25,489 --> 02:32:27,840
weren't gung ho about SROs.

2905
02:32:27,840 --> 02:32:29,840
And I like that.

2906
02:32:29,840 --> 02:32:30,840
So those are my concerns.

2907
02:32:30,840 --> 02:32:33,840
I think that's the concerns of the neighborhood, too.

2908
02:32:33,840 --> 02:32:39,010
But so if you're amenable to that, then, yeah, I would like

2909
02:32:39,010 --> 02:32:43,989
to approve this with the amendment that we apply an overlay

2910
02:32:43,989 --> 02:32:44,840
to it.

2911
02:32:44,840 --> 02:32:47,899
I will say at the moment there is a motion on the floor

2912
02:32:47,899 --> 02:32:50,840
that it has been seconded to approve it as is.

2913
02:32:50,840 --> 02:32:51,840
OK.

2914
02:32:51,840 --> 02:32:53,840
So I've got to take that up first.

2915
02:32:53,840 --> 02:32:54,840
All right.

2916
02:32:54,840 --> 02:32:59,840
OK, so.

2917
02:32:59,840 --> 02:33:01,840
So how does this work then?

2918
02:33:01,840 --> 02:33:05,079
If it gets approved, do I then come in and suggest an

2919
02:33:05,079 --> 02:33:08,840
overlay at that point, an amendment to it as approved?

2920
02:33:08,840 --> 02:33:10,840
If it fails.

2921
02:33:10,840 --> 02:33:11,840
Pardon me?

2922
02:33:11,840 --> 02:33:14,850
If it fails, then a new motion could be made and the motion

2923
02:33:14,850 --> 02:33:16,840
could be made with a overlay on it.

2924
02:33:16,840 --> 02:33:18,840
OK. Otherwise, no.

2925
02:33:18,840 --> 02:33:19,840
Right.

2926
02:33:19,840 --> 02:33:20,840
OK.

2927
02:33:20,840 --> 02:33:21,840
Thank you.

2928
02:33:21,840 --> 02:33:24,659
I think I could ask for a friendly amendment if you want to

2929
02:33:24,659 --> 02:33:26,840
have some discussion about that, too.

2930
02:33:26,840 --> 02:33:30,420
Well, I would rather go there rather than vote no and then

2931
02:33:30,420 --> 02:33:32,840
start discussing from that point.

2932
02:33:32,840 --> 02:33:33,840
So, yes, a friendly amendment.

2933
02:33:33,840 --> 02:33:34,840
Can we discuss that?

2934
02:33:34,840 --> 02:33:41,549
Do you have a height you want to throw out for friendly

2935
02:33:41,549 --> 02:33:44,840
discussion purposes?

2936
02:33:44,840 --> 02:33:46,840
I don't think it can accept 100 feet either.

2937
02:33:46,840 --> 02:33:53,190
But if we could see kind of a build down from the east to

2938
02:33:53,190 --> 02:34:00,129
the west from, say, a five story to a four story, that

2939
02:34:00,129 --> 02:34:05,840
seems like a practical move and may allow you to, you know,

2940
02:34:05,840 --> 02:34:08,659
get the economic benefits that you want by redeveloping

2941
02:34:08,659 --> 02:34:11,840
that property.

2942
02:34:11,840 --> 02:34:13,840
Is that specific enough?

2943
02:34:13,840 --> 02:34:17,090
I don't think it's a height because right now the DCG

2944
02:34:17,090 --> 02:34:18,840
allows 100 feet.

2945
02:34:18,840 --> 02:34:19,840
Right.

2946
02:34:19,840 --> 02:34:20,840
And the other is 45.

2947
02:34:20,840 --> 02:34:25,200
So I would assume that the applicant would want something

2948
02:34:25,200 --> 02:34:30,299
between 45 and closer to 100 and less than 100 if they're

2949
02:34:30,299 --> 02:34:33,809
going to agree to allow that to be imposed on their

2950
02:34:33,809 --> 02:34:34,840
property.

2951
02:34:34,840 --> 02:34:40,889
I'll call on staff to give us some direction and help on

2952
02:34:40,889 --> 02:34:42,840
this, Manal.

2953
02:34:42,840 --> 02:34:44,840
Can you see me?

2954
02:34:44,840 --> 02:34:45,840
Thank you, Chairperson.

2955
02:34:45,840 --> 02:34:46,840
That's strange.

2956
02:34:46,840 --> 02:34:49,850
I do want to add that the request before you is for one

2957
02:34:49,850 --> 02:34:50,840
specific lot.

2958
02:34:50,840 --> 02:34:54,069
Are you looking at the entire development once it's brought

2959
02:34:54,069 --> 02:34:54,840
together?

2960
02:34:54,840 --> 02:34:57,450
Because the zoning request is for a change on one specific

2961
02:34:57,450 --> 02:34:57,840
lot.

2962
02:34:57,840 --> 02:35:02,200
So your overlay that you're proposing would be specific to

2963
02:35:02,200 --> 02:35:02,840
that.

2964
02:35:02,840 --> 02:35:03,840
To just the lot.

2965
02:35:03,840 --> 02:35:07,840
Exactly.

2966
02:35:07,840 --> 02:35:12,840
Okay. Thank you.

2967
02:35:12,840 --> 02:35:16,840
You still have the floor.

2968
02:35:16,840 --> 02:35:20,840
How about a height of 60 feet?

2969
02:35:20,840 --> 02:35:24,239
A height of 60 foot for the subject lot we're talking about

2970
02:35:24,239 --> 02:35:24,840
today.

2971
02:35:24,840 --> 02:35:25,840
Right.

2972
02:35:25,840 --> 02:35:30,840
I think that I would need to talk it over.

2973
02:35:30,840 --> 02:35:32,840
But I think it's pretty close.

2974
02:35:32,840 --> 02:35:35,840
How about 70?

2975
02:35:35,840 --> 02:35:37,840
We will be building what's feasible.

2976
02:35:37,840 --> 02:35:38,840
Right.

2977
02:35:38,840 --> 02:35:41,840
Whether or not it's 50 feet, 60 feet, 70 feet.

2978
02:35:41,840 --> 02:35:45,250
But whatever's feasible, I don't know if we would even get

2979
02:35:45,250 --> 02:35:45,840
up to 70.

2980
02:35:45,840 --> 02:35:48,840
But I don't want to fence us in.

2981
02:35:48,840 --> 02:35:51,840
Sure.

2982
02:35:51,840 --> 02:35:52,840
Okay. Thank you.

2983
02:35:52,840 --> 02:35:53,840
Thank you.

2984
02:35:53,840 --> 02:35:55,840
Commissioner Hussbuss.

2985
02:35:55,840 --> 02:36:06,350
I don't want to put staff through the exercise, but if you

2986
02:36:06,350 --> 02:36:08,129
can close your eyes and imagine with me a Google Maps

2987
02:36:08,129 --> 02:36:08,840
aerial view of Denton.

2988
02:36:08,840 --> 02:36:13,200
And then just kind of go with me on where first we're over

2989
02:36:13,200 --> 02:36:15,840
stepping our duties by a mile.

2990
02:36:15,840 --> 02:36:16,840
Right.

2991
02:36:16,840 --> 02:36:18,840
And then if -- I'm big on consistency.

2992
02:36:18,840 --> 02:36:23,190
So this body, to be consistent in its applications and its

2993
02:36:23,190 --> 02:36:23,840
decisions.

2994
02:36:23,840 --> 02:36:27,040
Mind you, coming from the person that voted by himself on

2995
02:36:27,040 --> 02:36:28,840
the lot just down the street.

2996
02:36:28,840 --> 02:36:33,190
So the absolutely epitome of consistency in my own humble

2997
02:36:33,190 --> 02:36:33,840
opinion.

2998
02:36:33,840 --> 02:36:42,840
But take an aerial view of Denton in your Google Maps mind.

2999
02:36:42,840 --> 02:36:46,459
Where are you going to put -- where is there no building,

3000
02:36:46,459 --> 02:36:49,840
no neighborhood, nobody that's okay with building?

3001
02:36:49,840 --> 02:36:52,280
And then who is the builder willing to put the

3002
02:36:52,280 --> 02:36:54,840
infrastructure there to put the building?

3003
02:36:54,840 --> 02:36:59,309
I mean, you know, really you got to -- somehow this body is

3004
02:36:59,309 --> 02:37:01,840
not -- we're not business consultants.

3005
02:37:01,840 --> 02:37:04,840
We're not apartment managers.

3006
02:37:04,840 --> 02:37:09,840
We make decisions on what fits where generally.

3007
02:37:09,840 --> 02:37:12,870
And for us to overstep those bounds today means we have to

3008
02:37:12,870 --> 02:37:14,840
continue to do so going forward.

3009
02:37:14,840 --> 02:37:18,840
And that's just a slippery slope for me to go down.

3010
02:37:18,840 --> 02:37:22,389
I just don't want to be inconsistent in that regard because

3011
02:37:22,389 --> 02:37:26,040
I don't think it's fair to anyone that would come before us

3012
02:37:26,040 --> 02:37:28,840
to wonder if we're going to be --

3013
02:37:28,840 --> 02:37:31,670
if we're going to get a hint of what someone's going to do

3014
02:37:31,670 --> 02:37:36,459
with their property and then try to impose our will on that

3015
02:37:36,459 --> 02:37:36,840
.

3016
02:37:36,840 --> 02:37:39,840
That's just -- that's not our duty.

3017
02:37:39,840 --> 02:37:46,290
So the conversation is -- I'm not going to -- no friendly

3018
02:37:46,290 --> 02:37:46,840
amendment.

3019
02:37:46,840 --> 02:37:49,840
I think they have a good point.

3020
02:37:49,840 --> 02:37:52,790
They have a great piece of property that -- and I don't

3021
02:37:52,790 --> 02:37:53,840
think it fits.

3022
02:37:53,840 --> 02:37:57,020
I think that's the whole point, that you don't have to put

3023
02:37:57,020 --> 02:37:57,840
a cap on it.

3024
02:37:57,840 --> 02:38:00,840
It caps itself.

3025
02:38:00,840 --> 02:38:05,489
And then so my question for legal is what is the end result

3026
02:38:05,489 --> 02:38:05,840
?

3027
02:38:05,840 --> 02:38:07,840
So 3-3 is what we're projecting.

3028
02:38:07,840 --> 02:38:08,840
That goes to counsel.

3029
02:38:08,840 --> 02:38:11,840
Does that require a super majority or no?

3030
02:38:11,840 --> 02:38:15,440
Off the top of my head, I'm not sure if that would require

3031
02:38:15,440 --> 02:38:16,840
a super majority.

3032
02:38:16,840 --> 02:38:19,719
I can look through the stuff and see if I can find an

3033
02:38:19,719 --> 02:38:20,840
answer for you.

3034
02:38:20,840 --> 02:38:28,840
Thank you.

3035
02:38:28,840 --> 02:38:31,840
Just wanted to clarify, wouldn't the motion fail then?

3036
02:38:31,840 --> 02:38:33,840
We haven't taken a vote yet.

3037
02:38:33,840 --> 02:38:36,809
I'm just saying that as you do your research, if you could

3038
02:38:36,809 --> 02:38:37,840
look into that.

3039
02:38:37,840 --> 02:38:38,840
Yeah, the motion would fail.

3040
02:38:38,840 --> 02:38:41,840
3-3?

3041
02:38:41,840 --> 02:38:42,840
I think so.

3042
02:38:42,840 --> 02:38:43,840
I think it's 4.

3043
02:38:43,840 --> 02:38:44,840
Okay.

3044
02:38:44,840 --> 02:38:46,840
It's not going to go either way.

3045
02:38:46,840 --> 02:38:47,840
You still have a 4.

3046
02:38:47,840 --> 02:38:48,840
3-3 either way.

3047
02:38:48,840 --> 02:38:49,840
We're at impasse.

3048
02:38:49,840 --> 02:38:50,840
So then where do we go?

3049
02:38:50,840 --> 02:38:51,840
Right?

3050
02:38:51,840 --> 02:38:53,840
So if it fails, someone else makes a new motion.

3051
02:38:53,840 --> 02:38:54,840
Same three hold the line.

3052
02:38:54,840 --> 02:38:55,840
The other three hold the line.

3053
02:38:55,840 --> 02:38:56,840
We're at impasse.

3054
02:38:56,840 --> 02:38:57,840
So what then?

3055
02:38:57,840 --> 02:38:58,840
So where are we?

3056
02:38:58,840 --> 02:39:01,840
That's I guess my --

3057
02:39:01,840 --> 02:39:03,840
We'll see where this goes.

3058
02:39:03,840 --> 02:39:05,840
Commissioner Ellis.

3059
02:39:05,840 --> 02:39:06,840
Thank you, Chair.

3060
02:39:06,840 --> 02:39:09,180
I just want to clarify to Commissioner Huntsman that I'm

3061
02:39:09,180 --> 02:39:15,309
consistent too, and it's that we need to redefine this area

3062
02:39:15,309 --> 02:39:15,840
.

3063
02:39:15,840 --> 02:39:23,000
Any other discussion before I call for a vote on the motion

3064
02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:24,840
to approve?

3065
02:39:24,840 --> 02:39:25,840
Chair.

3066
02:39:25,840 --> 02:39:26,840
Sorry.

3067
02:39:26,840 --> 02:39:28,840
Commissioner Beck.

3068
02:39:28,840 --> 02:39:33,229
I'm going to reluctantly go along with this with the

3069
02:39:33,229 --> 02:39:37,840
understanding that if we do an overlay, I agree this thing

3070
02:39:37,840 --> 02:39:38,840
isn't going to take 100 feet.

3071
02:39:38,840 --> 02:39:41,420
And if I agree to 70 feet, it probably wouldn't even take

3072
02:39:41,420 --> 02:39:41,840
that.

3073
02:39:41,840 --> 02:39:42,840
If it did, it would be right under it.

3074
02:39:42,840 --> 02:39:45,840
So it's a no-game situation there.

3075
02:39:45,840 --> 02:39:49,840
Again, at heart here is, you know, the precedent this sets.

3076
02:39:49,840 --> 02:39:54,190
But we're dealing with a family business that has a

3077
02:39:54,190 --> 02:39:57,969
tradition here and I think has the interest of Denton's

3078
02:39:57,969 --> 02:39:59,840
future growth in it.

3079
02:39:59,840 --> 02:40:04,190
So for that reason and because staff has approved of it, I

3080
02:40:04,190 --> 02:40:07,840
'm going to reluctantly go along with it too.

3081
02:40:07,840 --> 02:40:09,840
Okay.

3082
02:40:09,840 --> 02:40:12,840
Any further discussion before I call for a vote?

3083
02:40:12,840 --> 02:40:16,840
Seeing none, I will call for a vote on the board.

3084
02:40:16,840 --> 02:40:30,840
The motion before us is a motion to approve.

3085
02:40:30,840 --> 02:40:36,840
That motion carries four to two.

3086
02:40:36,840 --> 02:40:42,840
That will take us to our, kind of these together?

3087
02:40:42,840 --> 02:40:46,840
I think we have to do it individually.

3088
02:40:46,840 --> 02:40:49,840
We have, I will take us to our next one.

3089
02:40:49,840 --> 02:40:57,840
I'm going to open the public hearing for Z17-0002.

3090
02:40:57,840 --> 02:41:02,620
And I believe this item has been postponed until April the

3091
02:41:02,620 --> 02:41:04,840
12th, 2017.

3092
02:41:04,840 --> 02:41:10,430
And we will look for a motion then to continue this till

3093
02:41:10,430 --> 02:41:11,840
that time.

3094
02:41:11,840 --> 02:41:13,840
Commissioner Rozelle.

3095
02:41:13,840 --> 02:41:19,840
I move to continue Z17-002 to April 12th.

3096
02:41:19,840 --> 02:41:21,840
Commissioner Hussbuth.

3097
02:41:21,840 --> 02:41:22,840
Second.

3098
02:41:22,840 --> 02:41:23,840
Okay.

3099
02:41:23,840 --> 02:41:26,840
We have a first and a second to continue.

3100
02:41:26,840 --> 02:41:28,840
Any discussion?

3101
02:41:28,840 --> 02:41:40,840
Seeing none, I'll call for a vote on the board.

3102
02:41:40,840 --> 02:41:42,840
That motion carries six to zero.

3103
02:41:42,840 --> 02:41:44,840
We'll take us to item C.

3104
02:41:44,840 --> 02:41:50,840
I'm going to open the public hearing for Z16-0030.

3105
02:41:50,840 --> 02:41:54,760
And the applicant has requested that this item be continued

3106
02:41:54,760 --> 02:41:57,840
to April the 12th, 2017 as well.

3107
02:41:57,840 --> 02:41:58,840
Commissioner Beck.

3108
02:41:58,840 --> 02:42:01,840
I move we continue this till April 12th.

3109
02:42:01,840 --> 02:42:02,840
April 12th.

3110
02:42:02,840 --> 02:42:05,840
Okay.

3111
02:42:05,840 --> 02:42:06,840
Chair will second.

3112
02:42:06,840 --> 02:42:08,840
Any discussion?

3113
02:42:08,840 --> 02:42:20,840
Seeing none, I'll call for a vote on the board.

3114
02:42:20,840 --> 02:42:23,840
That motion carries six to zero.

3115
02:42:23,840 --> 02:42:25,840
That will move us to item D.

3116
02:42:25,840 --> 02:42:39,229
And I will open the public hearing for DCA 17-0005 and call

3117
02:42:39,229 --> 02:42:45,840
on Ron McGee for a presentation.

3118
02:42:45,840 --> 02:42:48,360
Thank you, Chair, members of the commission, members of

3119
02:42:48,360 --> 02:42:48,840
staff.

3120
02:42:48,840 --> 02:42:53,200
I'll brought forward to you today is a consideration for a

3121
02:42:53,200 --> 02:42:56,840
recommendation to city council on a request to add a

3122
02:42:56,840 --> 02:43:03,379
specific use requirement for the DR2, DCN and DCG zoning

3123
02:43:03,379 --> 02:43:04,840
districts.

3124
02:43:04,840 --> 02:43:09,780
By way of definition, multifamily is defined as a structure

3125
02:43:09,780 --> 02:43:14,350
that contains three or more dwelling units as part of the

3126
02:43:14,350 --> 02:43:15,840
development.

3127
02:43:15,840 --> 02:43:18,559
As we discussed in our work session, these are the

3128
02:43:18,559 --> 02:43:22,139
following zoning districts that permit multifamily either

3129
02:43:22,139 --> 02:43:26,840
by right, through an SUP or through limitations.

3130
02:43:26,840 --> 02:43:33,840
The limitations here are L4, L5 and L6.

3131
02:43:33,840 --> 02:43:38,190
General regulations for multifamily specifically, I'm sorry

3132
02:43:38,190 --> 02:43:42,569
, for all development, including multifamily, in the DR2, DC

3133
02:43:42,569 --> 02:43:45,840
N and DCG are shown on this particular slide.

3134
02:43:45,840 --> 02:43:52,840
The height for DR2 is 45, DCN is 100, as well as DCG.

3135
02:43:52,840 --> 02:43:58,840
Setbacks are shown here and a lot of coverage as well.

3136
02:43:58,840 --> 02:44:03,200
Site design standards for development, and this in

3137
02:44:03,200 --> 02:44:07,840
particular design standard 3513 for multifamily.

3138
02:44:07,840 --> 02:44:11,190
There are specific requirements in regards to orientation,

3139
02:44:11,190 --> 02:44:14,129
proximity slope, building materials, open space,

3140
02:44:14,129 --> 02:44:15,840
architectural requirements.

3141
02:44:15,840 --> 02:44:20,370
And as noted, there are also, if a multifamily is within a

3142
02:44:20,370 --> 02:44:25,010
special purpose overlay district, they also have special

3143
02:44:25,010 --> 02:44:26,840
design standards.

3144
02:44:26,840 --> 02:44:31,190
Parking requirements for development in multifamily

3145
02:44:31,190 --> 02:44:33,840
development that is, is shown here.

3146
02:44:33,840 --> 02:44:40,309
We have two bedrooms at 1.75 space per unit, three bedrooms

3147
02:44:40,309 --> 02:44:45,540
, two space per unit, and four bedrooms is one space per

3148
02:44:45,540 --> 02:44:46,840
bedroom.

3149
02:44:46,840 --> 02:44:52,829
Specific use permits for background is covered under 35136,

3150
02:44:52,829 --> 02:44:57,569
covers procedures on what is required to obtain a specific

3151
02:44:57,569 --> 02:44:58,840
use permit.

3152
02:44:58,840 --> 02:45:02,000
It requires a dual public hearing process that comes to the

3153
02:45:02,000 --> 02:45:04,959
Planning, Zoning Commission for recommendation and

3154
02:45:04,959 --> 02:45:07,840
ultimately to City Council for their approval.

3155
02:45:07,840 --> 02:45:10,840
There are requirements for submittal.

3156
02:45:10,840 --> 02:45:15,190
As discussed, conditions can be placed with a specific use

3157
02:45:15,190 --> 02:45:17,840
permit and it's outlined in this section.

3158
02:45:17,840 --> 02:45:22,200
And also, a specific use permit, if approved and later

3159
02:45:22,200 --> 02:45:28,459
altered, either the specific use or the conditions, it has

3160
02:45:28,459 --> 02:45:33,840
to go through the same process as it was approved.

3161
02:45:33,840 --> 02:45:38,190
What staff is recommending is a code amendment to add,

3162
02:45:38,190 --> 02:45:42,840
again, a specific use requirement for the DR2, DCN and DCG

3163
02:45:42,840 --> 02:45:47,840
to address multifamily proposals in the DIN core.

3164
02:45:47,840 --> 02:45:51,840
And that core is identified on this map.

3165
02:45:51,840 --> 02:45:54,840
The DCG, as you can see, is the darker green.

3166
02:45:54,840 --> 02:45:58,840
DCN is the one with the hatching.

3167
02:45:58,840 --> 02:46:00,840
And then DR2 is the lighter green.

3168
02:46:00,840 --> 02:46:05,200
And I wanted to point out on this map the areas that we are

3169
02:46:05,200 --> 02:46:09,350
trying to protect with this proposal are the established

3170
02:46:09,350 --> 02:46:13,840
neighborhoods, the historic districts, as well as the

3171
02:46:13,840 --> 02:46:15,840
special overlay districts.

3172
02:46:15,840 --> 02:46:19,840
We've got West Oak here, Oak Hickory.

3173
02:46:19,840 --> 02:46:22,840
We've got a Bernard neighborhood here.

3174
02:46:22,840 --> 02:46:26,840
Some neighbor here to the east of the railroad tracks.

3175
02:46:26,840 --> 02:46:31,190
We've got the Stroud neighborhood shown in this lighter

3176
02:46:31,190 --> 02:46:31,840
yellow.

3177
02:46:31,840 --> 02:46:35,270
And we also have some clusters of residential development

3178
02:46:35,270 --> 02:46:38,840
here, single family, that's also in that core area that we

3179
02:46:38,840 --> 02:46:39,840
're proposing.

3180
02:46:39,840 --> 02:46:44,579
The SGP allows for the opportunity for not just the council

3181
02:46:44,579 --> 02:46:47,840
, but the Planning and Zoning Commission and the community

3182
02:46:47,840 --> 02:46:51,840
to come together and address any potential impacts that may

3183
02:46:51,840 --> 02:46:54,840
arise from a proposed multifamily development.

3184
02:46:54,840 --> 02:46:58,530
And that could be looking at the parking ratio, the

3185
02:46:58,530 --> 02:47:02,909
building height, as well as any design standards to conform

3186
02:47:02,909 --> 02:47:07,370
to compatibility matters, again, that would be adjacent to

3187
02:47:07,370 --> 02:47:09,840
established neighborhoods.

3188
02:47:09,840 --> 02:47:13,229
Stafford's recommending approval of this request as we are

3189
02:47:13,229 --> 02:47:14,840
bringing this forward.

3190
02:47:14,840 --> 02:47:16,840
It is a land use analysis tool.

3191
02:47:16,840 --> 02:47:21,190
Again, repeating myself here, addressing massing and scale

3192
02:47:21,190 --> 02:47:21,840
compatibility.

3193
02:47:21,840 --> 02:47:24,840
And again, it's consistent with the Dem Plan 2030.

3194
02:47:24,840 --> 02:47:27,840
With that, that concludes my presentation.

3195
02:47:27,840 --> 02:47:29,840
I will be happy to answer any questions.

3196
02:47:29,840 --> 02:47:31,840
Questions for Commissioner Ellis.

3197
02:47:31,840 --> 02:47:32,840
Thank you, Chair.

3198
02:47:32,840 --> 02:47:35,540
Hey, Ron, when would this take effect if this did get

3199
02:47:35,540 --> 02:47:36,840
approved by council?

3200
02:47:36,840 --> 02:47:40,489
We are scheduled tentatively scheduled to PNZ, I'm sorry,

3201
02:47:40,489 --> 02:47:42,840
to City Council at their next meeting.

3202
02:47:42,840 --> 02:47:45,840
I believe it's April 4th.

3203
02:47:45,840 --> 02:47:51,010
If that were to go on the April 4th, City Council, and if

3204
02:47:51,010 --> 02:47:55,059
again, if they approve this code amendment, I believe it's

3205
02:47:55,059 --> 02:47:59,840
14 days after April 4th, so mid to late April.

3206
02:47:59,840 --> 02:48:01,840
And would it exclude any projects?

3207
02:48:01,840 --> 02:48:03,840
How would that go?

3208
02:48:03,840 --> 02:48:07,110
My understanding is that if the zoning is in place, and

3209
02:48:07,110 --> 02:48:09,840
Shannon, you may help me out here.

3210
02:48:09,840 --> 02:48:14,200
If the zoning is already being considered, I don't know if

3211
02:48:14,200 --> 02:48:18,680
they would be vested or if the platting would vest them in

3212
02:48:18,680 --> 02:48:19,840
a project.

3213
02:48:19,840 --> 02:48:22,139
They wouldn't vest with zoning, they would vest when they

3214
02:48:22,139 --> 02:48:22,840
file the plat.

3215
02:48:22,840 --> 02:48:27,840
So the plat is considered the first permit.

3216
02:48:27,840 --> 02:48:30,840
Vesting doesn't occur with zoning of a property.

3217
02:48:30,840 --> 02:48:34,129
It occurs with the plat, which is typically the first

3218
02:48:34,129 --> 02:48:34,840
permit.

3219
02:48:34,840 --> 02:48:38,549
The plat or the first permit, but the plat is typically the

3220
02:48:38,549 --> 02:48:39,840
first permit.

3221
02:48:39,840 --> 02:48:41,840
Thank you.

3222
02:48:41,840 --> 02:48:42,840
Continue.

3223
02:48:42,840 --> 02:48:43,840
Thank you.

3224
02:48:43,840 --> 02:48:46,459
Okay, so on that same note, so anything that's got its

3225
02:48:46,459 --> 02:48:48,899
first plat and would not, this would not apply to them,

3226
02:48:48,899 --> 02:48:51,629
then it would play anything new going forward at that point

3227
02:48:51,629 --> 02:48:51,840
.

3228
02:48:51,840 --> 02:48:57,840
So if they've already been platted in the zoning changes,

3229
02:48:57,840 --> 02:49:02,840
then they're vested under the old requirements.

3230
02:49:02,840 --> 02:49:05,840
Does that make sense?

3231
02:49:05,840 --> 02:49:08,329
Right, so they would not require an SUP if they're at that

3232
02:49:08,329 --> 02:49:08,840
stage.

3233
02:49:08,840 --> 02:49:11,920
It would only be something new coming forward then after

3234
02:49:11,920 --> 02:49:14,840
whatever you said, 14 days after approval.

3235
02:49:14,840 --> 02:49:17,290
The April 4th, again, that's a tentative City Council

3236
02:49:17,290 --> 02:49:17,840
meeting.

3237
02:49:17,840 --> 02:49:22,840
Okay, thank you.

3238
02:49:22,840 --> 02:49:27,840
Any other questions for staff?

3239
02:49:27,840 --> 02:49:28,840
You have another question?

3240
02:49:28,840 --> 02:49:29,840
Actually, I'm sorry.

3241
02:49:29,840 --> 02:49:30,840
That's okay.

3242
02:49:30,840 --> 02:49:31,840
Commissioner Ellis.

3243
02:49:31,840 --> 02:49:32,840
I'm sorry.

3244
02:49:32,840 --> 02:49:33,840
It's on the same note.

3245
02:49:33,840 --> 02:49:39,000
So is that in just a request for platting or is that an

3246
02:49:39,000 --> 02:49:40,840
approved plat?

3247
02:49:40,840 --> 02:49:42,840
Actually, it's the application.

3248
02:49:42,840 --> 02:49:48,840
If they show intent to develop the property in that manner,

3249
02:49:48,840 --> 02:49:52,129
by submitting an application, they actually can prove v

3250
02:49:52,129 --> 02:49:53,840
esting with just that action.

3251
02:49:53,840 --> 02:49:54,840
Okay, so like --

3252
02:49:54,840 --> 02:49:59,360
The state law is a little bit unclear, but it's been tried

3253
02:49:59,360 --> 02:50:00,840
in that manner.

3254
02:50:00,840 --> 02:50:03,840
Okay, so trying to wrap my head around what just happened.

3255
02:50:03,840 --> 02:50:07,579
So that particular zoning change we just made, if he quick

3256
02:50:07,579 --> 02:50:12,030
turns an application in tomorrow for a plat, doesn't apply,

3257
02:50:12,030 --> 02:50:15,840
or even the day of this or 14 days after this is approved,

3258
02:50:15,840 --> 02:50:18,000
if he just submits the application for that, then this

3259
02:50:18,000 --> 02:50:18,840
would not apply to that particular property.

3260
02:50:18,840 --> 02:50:21,690
If they indicate intent to develop that property in that

3261
02:50:21,690 --> 02:50:22,840
manner, then yes.

3262
02:50:22,840 --> 02:50:23,840
And it would not apply then?

3263
02:50:23,840 --> 02:50:24,840
Right.

3264
02:50:24,840 --> 02:50:26,840
Okay, thank you.

3265
02:50:26,840 --> 02:50:29,840
Any other questions for Ron?

3266
02:50:29,840 --> 02:50:30,840
Thank you.

3267
02:50:30,840 --> 02:50:35,840
Thank you.

3268
02:50:35,840 --> 02:50:39,200
This is a public hearing, and I have two cards for

3269
02:50:39,200 --> 02:50:40,840
questions to speak.

3270
02:50:40,840 --> 02:50:48,840
Kim McKibbin, followed by Paul Meltzer.

3271
02:50:48,840 --> 02:50:49,840
Hello again.

3272
02:50:49,840 --> 02:50:53,840
Kim McKibbin, 1306 West Hickory Street.

3273
02:50:53,840 --> 02:50:57,850
I was not going to comment on this, but after hearing some

3274
02:50:57,850 --> 02:51:01,940
of the work session, I did want to mention that the special

3275
02:51:01,940 --> 02:51:05,840
use permit might be a step in the right direction.

3276
02:51:05,840 --> 02:51:09,639
I put a question mark on whether or not I agreed with it

3277
02:51:09,639 --> 02:51:13,579
simply because I did listen to what you guys said in the

3278
02:51:13,579 --> 02:51:14,840
work meeting.

3279
02:51:14,840 --> 02:51:21,700
And at some point, someone has to take responsibility for

3280
02:51:21,700 --> 02:51:24,840
the planning of Denton.

3281
02:51:24,840 --> 02:51:27,989
Now, nobody wants to ruffle any feathers or get anybody

3282
02:51:27,989 --> 02:51:29,840
upset or anything like that.

3283
02:51:29,840 --> 02:51:34,579
But if you people do not make some decisions about what you

3284
02:51:34,579 --> 02:51:39,030
are going to allow and what you are not going to allow in

3285
02:51:39,030 --> 02:51:43,659
certain areas, there is going to be a lot of trouble very

3286
02:51:43,659 --> 02:51:44,840
quickly.

3287
02:51:44,840 --> 02:51:48,309
Denton is not the same Denton it was in 1981 when I came

3288
02:51:48,309 --> 02:51:48,840
here.

3289
02:51:48,840 --> 02:51:51,959
It's all over all these places about the best place to

3290
02:51:51,959 --> 02:51:55,209
retire, the best place to do this, the best place to do

3291
02:51:55,209 --> 02:51:55,840
that.

3292
02:51:55,840 --> 02:51:57,840
And people want to come here.

3293
02:51:57,840 --> 02:52:02,969
And in wanting to come here, you have to be prudent in what

3294
02:52:02,969 --> 02:52:07,350
you allow to be developed and how you allow it to be

3295
02:52:07,350 --> 02:52:08,840
developed.

3296
02:52:08,840 --> 02:52:11,840
Now, I'm not saying I'm an expert in that.

3297
02:52:11,840 --> 02:52:15,139
I came up here, I bought a business, you know, I want to

3298
02:52:15,139 --> 02:52:16,840
invest in the community.

3299
02:52:16,840 --> 02:52:19,940
I want to see good things happen and I want to see it

3300
02:52:19,940 --> 02:52:20,840
continue.

3301
02:52:20,840 --> 02:52:24,549
Now, you know, one of the things that we keep talking about

3302
02:52:24,549 --> 02:52:28,319
is the overlay districts we talk about, the transition

3303
02:52:28,319 --> 02:52:28,840
areas.

3304
02:52:28,840 --> 02:52:32,549
And I think that perhaps my idea about the transition area

3305
02:52:32,549 --> 02:52:36,319
from the university is that the university is the tallest

3306
02:52:36,319 --> 02:52:38,840
point and it goes down from there.

3307
02:52:38,840 --> 02:52:41,860
I know some other people think that it ascends up to the

3308
02:52:41,860 --> 02:52:42,840
university.

3309
02:52:42,840 --> 02:52:46,840
I think the university is the peak and it ascends down.

3310
02:52:46,840 --> 02:52:49,680
And what you're looking at are two story, three story

3311
02:52:49,680 --> 02:52:51,840
buildings surrounding the university.

3312
02:52:51,840 --> 02:52:57,010
And we need to be aware of the developers will continue to

3313
02:52:57,010 --> 02:52:57,840
come.

3314
02:52:57,840 --> 02:53:04,959
They will continue to try to ask for special treatment or

3315
02:53:04,959 --> 02:53:08,350
understanding about, well, this is zoned, you know, for

3316
02:53:08,350 --> 02:53:10,840
single family, but I really want to do this with it.

3317
02:53:10,840 --> 02:53:15,680
And if we start at the university and go out, you know, as

3318
02:53:15,680 --> 02:53:20,829
the compatibility area goes down, not starting at 100 feet

3319
02:53:20,829 --> 02:53:24,840
and then turning up at two stories several blocks away.

3320
02:53:24,840 --> 02:53:29,200
But you start at two stories and you end up at 100 feet

3321
02:53:29,200 --> 02:53:30,840
several blocks away.

3322
02:53:30,840 --> 02:53:34,040
So a little bit different way to look at what that

3323
02:53:34,040 --> 02:53:35,840
compatibility area is.

3324
02:53:35,840 --> 02:53:40,190
But I am really asking you guys, the special overlay

3325
02:53:40,190 --> 02:53:44,840
district may not be the optimum solution to this, but

3326
02:53:44,840 --> 02:53:50,840
somewhere somebody is going to have to just kind of step

3327
02:53:50,840 --> 02:53:55,389
off this cliff and see what we can do to preserve the parts

3328
02:53:55,389 --> 02:53:59,319
of Denton that are really, really what make Denton what it

3329
02:53:59,319 --> 02:53:59,840
is.

3330
02:53:59,840 --> 02:54:03,250
If people want to do certain things in certain areas that

3331
02:54:03,250 --> 02:54:06,840
really don't fit with the zoning and that does not fit what

3332
02:54:06,840 --> 02:54:11,209
the overall community that surrounds that area is looking

3333
02:54:11,209 --> 02:54:14,840
at, we once again, where's the compromise?

3334
02:54:14,840 --> 02:54:18,459
Where can we compromise between the communities and the

3335
02:54:18,459 --> 02:54:21,989
developers in finding housing for Denton and making it

3336
02:54:21,989 --> 02:54:25,840
someplace that continues to be livable and desirable?

3337
02:54:25,840 --> 02:54:30,059
So I'm asking you to step off that cliff or maybe get a

3338
02:54:30,059 --> 02:54:34,260
little closer to the edge by considering this or whatever

3339
02:54:34,260 --> 02:54:36,840
you're going to do with this.

3340
02:54:36,840 --> 02:54:38,840
Something's got to start somewhere.

3341
02:54:38,840 --> 02:54:41,690
And if it is special use permits for certain areas, that

3342
02:54:41,690 --> 02:54:42,840
might be what it is.

3343
02:54:42,840 --> 02:54:46,850
I do disagree with the fact that there it just needs to be

3344
02:54:46,850 --> 02:54:47,840
the core.

3345
02:54:47,840 --> 02:54:51,129
There are certain areas right on the outskirts of this core

3346
02:54:51,129 --> 02:54:54,170
that are going to be impacted and have been in the past by

3347
02:54:54,170 --> 02:54:56,840
apartments being built inappropriately.

3348
02:54:56,840 --> 02:54:57,840
I have a question for you.

3349
02:54:57,840 --> 02:54:58,840
Yes, sir.

3350
02:54:58,840 --> 02:55:02,840
I appreciate your comments, and I think they're with merit.

3351
02:55:02,840 --> 02:55:06,409
And I would agree with you that a key to successful

3352
02:55:06,409 --> 02:55:10,790
development for our community, in my opinion, is here are

3353
02:55:10,790 --> 02:55:13,940
the rules, and then you leave them and people then can

3354
02:55:13,940 --> 02:55:14,840
abide by them.

3355
02:55:14,840 --> 02:55:18,680
I think the difficulty comes is when we want to keep adding

3356
02:55:18,680 --> 02:55:20,840
things and changing things.

3357
02:55:20,840 --> 02:55:23,840
The uncertainty is what creates the problems.

3358
02:55:23,840 --> 02:55:26,520
And I'd like to respond to I appreciate you've been here at

3359
02:55:26,520 --> 02:55:27,840
a number of our meetings.

3360
02:55:27,840 --> 02:55:32,200
I know you and I may not look eye to eye on some issues,

3361
02:55:32,200 --> 02:55:33,840
and that's okay.

3362
02:55:33,840 --> 02:55:38,229
And so I would share back with you that as a longtime Dent

3363
02:55:38,229 --> 02:55:41,350
on resident also, there have been a number of things that

3364
02:55:41,350 --> 02:55:42,840
have been done for communities.

3365
02:55:42,840 --> 02:55:46,180
So that's why the Fry Street overlay is there, the Oak, the

3366
02:55:46,180 --> 02:55:47,840
Hickory Street overlay.

3367
02:55:47,840 --> 02:55:50,780
Those are all there, and they were put in there for exactly

3368
02:55:50,780 --> 02:55:53,840
the reason that you said, to protect particular areas.

3369
02:55:53,840 --> 02:55:56,379
And the issue sometimes that I have a difficult time as a

3370
02:55:56,379 --> 02:55:59,090
commissioner, because you're right, we do have to make a

3371
02:55:59,090 --> 02:55:59,840
decision.

3372
02:55:59,840 --> 02:56:02,829
It's a yes or a no, is that even when we have those

3373
02:56:02,829 --> 02:56:06,340
districts and all of the discussion and all the work that

3374
02:56:06,340 --> 02:56:07,840
has gone into those,

3375
02:56:07,840 --> 02:56:10,620
we then still have areas that are outside of those that

3376
02:56:10,620 --> 02:56:13,370
then we say, well, it's close to this area or it's two

3377
02:56:13,370 --> 02:56:14,840
blocks down the street.

3378
02:56:14,840 --> 02:56:16,840
And so we have to do all these other things.

3379
02:56:16,840 --> 02:56:20,200
And I'm torn between the position of what we have put those

3380
02:56:20,200 --> 02:56:22,840
in for special protection of those areas.

3381
02:56:22,840 --> 02:56:25,840
And to the west of this is zoned in R3.

3382
02:56:25,840 --> 02:56:29,549
And so it's not going to creepy crawl over there because

3383
02:56:29,549 --> 02:56:32,840
that is a very low density zoning in our city.

3384
02:56:32,840 --> 02:56:35,840
And so I would appreciate kind of the same thing back.

3385
02:56:35,840 --> 02:56:38,270
We do the very best we can with a lot of different

3386
02:56:38,270 --> 02:56:39,840
circumstances that come.

3387
02:56:39,840 --> 02:56:42,520
And we try to look, or at least I try to look at what's

3388
02:56:42,520 --> 02:56:45,540
been done in the past, what the overlays, what the

3389
02:56:45,540 --> 02:56:46,840
districts were,

3390
02:56:46,840 --> 02:56:50,129
and try to come up with, I hope, a reasonable decision and

3391
02:56:50,129 --> 02:56:52,840
then say that usually it has to be a yes or a no.

3392
02:56:52,840 --> 02:56:55,840
So thank you for continuing to come out.

3393
02:56:55,840 --> 02:56:56,840
Thank you for your feedback.

3394
02:56:56,840 --> 02:57:00,069
It's nice to have some reasoned discussion versus just

3395
02:57:00,069 --> 02:57:01,840
getting kind of thrown at you.

3396
02:57:01,840 --> 02:57:03,809
And you're just kind of like, well, I don't know what to do

3397
02:57:03,809 --> 02:57:04,840
with that, but take it.

3398
02:57:04,840 --> 02:57:07,920
So thank you for your reasonable discussion and your

3399
02:57:07,920 --> 02:57:09,840
feedback to this commission.

3400
02:57:09,840 --> 02:57:11,840
So with that, Commissioner Rozelle.

3401
02:57:11,840 --> 02:57:12,840
Thank you, Chair.

3402
02:57:12,840 --> 02:57:15,989
And I'll take my notes back that you're reading from me

3403
02:57:15,989 --> 02:57:16,840
just then.

3404
02:57:16,840 --> 02:57:19,840
But I'll be redundant, I guess.

3405
02:57:19,840 --> 02:57:20,840
I'll have to be.

3406
02:57:20,840 --> 02:57:22,840
Well, you and I swap with that once in a while.

3407
02:57:22,840 --> 02:57:25,840
I was, I mean, bullet by bullet, apparently.

3408
02:57:25,840 --> 02:57:30,840
One, I wanted to thank you, Ms. Givens, for coming out.

3409
02:57:30,840 --> 02:57:33,239
You've been consistent with anything that happens with Hick

3410
02:57:33,239 --> 02:57:33,840
ory and Oak.

3411
02:57:33,840 --> 02:57:38,559
And so it's you and Mr. Meltzer who stay late nights with

3412
02:57:38,559 --> 02:57:42,329
us and have decent dialogue to help us think through these

3413
02:57:42,329 --> 02:57:42,840
processes.

3414
02:57:42,840 --> 02:57:43,840
So I wanted to thank you for that.

3415
02:57:43,840 --> 02:57:48,200
And the first part of your presentation, I wholeheartedly

3416
02:57:48,200 --> 02:57:48,840
agree.

3417
02:57:48,840 --> 02:57:50,850
I think there needs to be, I think you said, an allow and

3418
02:57:50,850 --> 02:57:51,840
not allow provision.

3419
02:57:51,840 --> 02:57:57,190
I think to Chair's point, once we have the box, then a

3420
02:57:57,190 --> 02:58:00,620
developer or anyone who buys the property can say, this is

3421
02:58:00,620 --> 02:58:01,840
what I'm allowed to do.

3422
02:58:01,840 --> 02:58:04,840
And I think I would disagree that SUP is a start in the

3423
02:58:04,840 --> 02:58:07,690
right direction because I think an SUP just adds more

3424
02:58:07,690 --> 02:58:09,840
questions to that allow and not allow.

3425
02:58:09,840 --> 02:58:14,840
And so I agree with you in that.

3426
02:58:14,840 --> 02:58:16,840
I think there needs to be some measures.

3427
02:58:16,840 --> 02:58:18,840
I think the conversation is how does that look?

3428
02:58:18,840 --> 02:58:20,840
Is it an overlay district?

3429
02:58:20,840 --> 02:58:24,579
Or what can we do to provide greater direction and some

3430
02:58:24,579 --> 02:58:29,030
black and white measures to encourage or discourage certain

3431
02:58:29,030 --> 02:58:32,840
developments from happening in certain places?

3432
02:58:32,840 --> 02:58:35,280
And so I think we're thinking along those same lines of

3433
02:58:35,280 --> 02:58:38,000
what to do to protect areas that need to be protected, not

3434
02:58:38,000 --> 02:58:40,840
just in the core, but as you mentioned, in other areas.

3435
02:58:40,840 --> 02:58:45,940
What I also had for you is you mentioned that you feel that

3436
02:58:45,940 --> 02:58:50,969
everything should work down from the university. I imagine

3437
02:58:50,969 --> 02:58:51,840
you meant in height and density, but mostly height.

3438
02:58:51,840 --> 02:58:53,840
UNT doesn't have a lot of tall buildings.

3439
02:58:53,840 --> 02:58:56,520
It's not like TWA where you can get like 150 story building

3440
02:58:56,520 --> 02:58:57,840
or 150 foot building.

3441
02:58:57,840 --> 02:59:01,629
But to that point, it seems as though there is general

3442
02:59:01,629 --> 02:59:05,450
consensus about high rises or tall buildings on the west

3443
02:59:05,450 --> 02:59:06,840
side of campus.

3444
02:59:06,840 --> 02:59:07,840
But you didn't mention that necessarily.

3445
02:59:07,840 --> 02:59:11,549
So I'd love to know your thoughts on if you were here for

3446
02:59:11,549 --> 02:59:13,840
the earlier presentation.

3447
02:59:13,840 --> 02:59:17,440
Maybe you're not in favor of 100 foot on Hickory, 100 foot

3448
02:59:17,440 --> 02:59:18,840
building on Hickory.

3449
02:59:18,840 --> 02:59:23,530
Are you OK with 100 foot story or 100 feet tall building

3450
02:59:23,530 --> 02:59:24,840
west of campus?

3451
02:59:24,840 --> 02:59:25,840
How do you feel about that?

3452
02:59:25,840 --> 02:59:27,840
OK, I'm not from Texas.

3453
02:59:27,840 --> 02:59:31,440
So when you say west of campus, I think going down Hickory

3454
02:59:31,440 --> 02:59:32,840
Street is east.

3455
02:59:32,840 --> 02:59:33,840
That's correct.

3456
02:59:33,840 --> 02:59:40,840
OK, so a lot of that stuff that's out that direction on out

3457
02:59:40,840 --> 02:59:40,840
.

3458
02:59:40,840 --> 02:59:44,079
I think the University Boulevard and then from University

3459
02:59:44,079 --> 02:59:47,450
Boulevard kind of towards the hospital area where there's a

3460
02:59:47,450 --> 02:59:48,840
lot of there's a lot of two stories.

3461
02:59:48,840 --> 02:59:49,840
Two stories.

3462
02:59:49,840 --> 02:59:51,840
There's a lot of older things.

3463
02:59:51,840 --> 02:59:54,809
Well, when you say Cement City, I think down off Eagle,

3464
02:59:54,809 --> 02:59:57,739
that is the apartments that I moved in when I moved here in

3465
02:59:57,739 --> 02:59:58,840
1981.

3466
02:59:58,840 --> 02:59:58,840
Sure.

3467
02:59:58,840 --> 03:00:00,840
So it's a different concept.

3468
03:00:00,840 --> 03:00:03,879
I think that if you if you choose an area and you say to

3469
03:00:03,879 --> 03:00:07,520
developers, this is where you can build this, but you can't

3470
03:00:07,520 --> 03:00:08,840
build that here.

3471
03:00:08,840 --> 03:00:11,840
You know, I can understand that.

3472
03:00:11,840 --> 03:00:16,200
I certainly understand the concept of taking a section and

3473
03:00:16,200 --> 03:00:20,040
really working with all the people that are involved in the

3474
03:00:20,040 --> 03:00:22,940
development to develop it into something that has walk

3475
03:00:22,940 --> 03:00:26,840
ability, bicycles, green space, those kinds of things.

3476
03:00:26,840 --> 03:00:31,200
So if you're asking me if I thought there's a place for a

3477
03:00:31,200 --> 03:00:36,000
hundred foot apartment building down that direction, I'm

3478
03:00:36,000 --> 03:00:38,840
not sure everything down there right now is three story.

3479
03:00:38,840 --> 03:00:40,840
And that's about as high as it gets.

3480
03:00:40,840 --> 03:00:45,440
A hundred story building is the first state bank building

3481
03:00:45,440 --> 03:00:46,840
on the square.

3482
03:00:46,840 --> 03:00:47,840
That's a hundred foot.

3483
03:00:47,840 --> 03:00:50,840
At least that's pretty close to it from what I understand.

3484
03:00:50,840 --> 03:00:55,190
I don't I haven't seen much apartment buildings in Denver

3485
03:00:55,190 --> 03:00:59,479
or in downtown Dallas or any place where there's a need for

3486
03:00:59,479 --> 03:01:01,840
density that are that tall.

3487
03:01:01,840 --> 03:01:03,840
I really have not.

3488
03:01:03,840 --> 03:01:08,200
Down around the hospital districts in Dallas, they're

3489
03:01:08,200 --> 03:01:09,840
building Max four.

3490
03:01:09,840 --> 03:01:12,840
In Denver, they're building Max five.

3491
03:01:12,840 --> 03:01:15,840
And those are the two areas that I'm familiar with.

3492
03:01:15,840 --> 03:01:21,229
So I would have to, you know, really look at what the plans

3493
03:01:21,229 --> 03:01:21,840
is.

3494
03:01:21,840 --> 03:01:24,159
Is it something that's still and goes straight up out of

3495
03:01:24,159 --> 03:01:24,840
the ground?

3496
03:01:24,840 --> 03:01:26,840
Does it gradually move around?

3497
03:01:26,840 --> 03:01:29,780
But I think that if you if you have something that says

3498
03:01:29,780 --> 03:01:33,110
people can build a hundred foot building, they're going to

3499
03:01:33,110 --> 03:01:33,840
push it.

3500
03:01:33,840 --> 03:01:35,840
They're going to push it to a hundred feet.

3501
03:01:35,840 --> 03:01:37,709
And then they're going to ask you for 10 more feet for the

3502
03:01:37,709 --> 03:01:38,840
air conditioning units on top.

3503
03:01:38,840 --> 03:01:42,840
So why is it a hundred feet?

3504
03:01:42,840 --> 03:01:46,860
You know, why is there not something between forty five and

3505
03:01:46,860 --> 03:01:47,840
a hundred?

3506
03:01:47,840 --> 03:01:49,840
Will the will the fire department even be able to service a

3507
03:01:49,840 --> 03:01:50,840
hundred foot building?

3508
03:01:50,840 --> 03:01:53,340
Do we have the ladders and all of that kind of stuff for

3509
03:01:53,340 --> 03:01:53,840
that?

3510
03:01:53,840 --> 03:01:55,840
I mean, I don't even know.

3511
03:01:55,840 --> 03:01:59,309
And it would be terrible to have the buildings outgrow what

3512
03:01:59,309 --> 03:02:00,840
the city can provide.

3513
03:02:00,840 --> 03:02:05,899
Sure. So I don't have any objection to a certain area being

3514
03:02:05,899 --> 03:02:07,840
designated that way.

3515
03:02:07,840 --> 03:02:10,340
I would like to see some of the areas, the more blighted

3516
03:02:10,340 --> 03:02:10,840
areas.

3517
03:02:10,840 --> 03:02:14,059
I don't mean that in a derogatory way, but there's some

3518
03:02:14,059 --> 03:02:16,840
places that that need to be redone.

3519
03:02:16,840 --> 03:02:18,840
We need to be revitalized.

3520
03:02:18,840 --> 03:02:23,469
And it's the it's the single family houses that get torn

3521
03:02:23,469 --> 03:02:28,090
down to get these things put up that that disturbs me in a

3522
03:02:28,090 --> 03:02:28,840
way.

3523
03:02:28,840 --> 03:02:29,840
I appreciate the feedback. Thank you.

3524
03:02:29,840 --> 03:02:31,840
OK, I'm sorry. I couldn't be more direct.

3525
03:02:31,840 --> 03:02:34,840
That helps. I can't even think of a hundred foot.

3526
03:02:34,840 --> 03:02:36,840
How many stories is that?

3527
03:02:36,840 --> 03:02:38,840
Nine, ten, eight.

3528
03:02:38,840 --> 03:02:43,899
I can't even I can't even envision one of those except in

3529
03:02:43,899 --> 03:02:48,420
in right in downtown Dallas is the only place I'm seeing

3530
03:02:48,420 --> 03:02:51,840
around the American American Pavilion Center.

3531
03:02:51,840 --> 03:02:53,840
Yeah. Thank you.

3532
03:02:53,840 --> 03:02:56,840
Thank you for your comments. Appreciate them.

3533
03:02:56,840 --> 03:02:58,840
Anybody else?

3534
03:02:58,840 --> 03:03:00,840
Thank you for allowing me to speak.

3535
03:03:00,840 --> 03:03:02,840
Thank you for coming out again this evening.

3536
03:03:02,840 --> 03:03:05,840
You're welcome.

3537
03:03:05,840 --> 03:03:13,969
Mr. Melcher, since you raised the plan that I presented, I

3538
03:03:13,969 --> 03:03:19,030
'll just touch on that briefly that you could you can look

3539
03:03:19,030 --> 03:03:20,840
at the presentation to a large community.

3540
03:03:20,840 --> 03:03:25,059
I can just share with you that I've had universal positive

3541
03:03:25,059 --> 03:03:28,790
response to that notion of making a more urban area in that

3542
03:03:28,790 --> 03:03:33,840
area that does kind of beg for redevelopment and equally

3543
03:03:33,840 --> 03:03:34,840
strong reaction.

3544
03:03:34,840 --> 03:03:39,059
I'm just sharing with you presented this to lots of people

3545
03:03:39,059 --> 03:03:42,850
in large rooms and I think you'll find I think you'll find

3546
03:03:42,850 --> 03:03:45,870
it rewarding and interesting to ask that question to many

3547
03:03:45,870 --> 03:03:46,840
other people.

3548
03:03:46,840 --> 03:03:51,620
And I think you'll find that that people resonate with it

3549
03:03:51,620 --> 03:03:53,840
specifically on this.

3550
03:03:53,840 --> 03:03:56,840
I think there's a medium term issue and a short term issue.

3551
03:03:56,840 --> 03:04:02,079
Medium term, clearly we collectively as a community are not

3552
03:04:02,079 --> 03:04:05,340
done yet actually planning. I mean, I would agree with the

3553
03:04:05,340 --> 03:04:05,840
previous speaker on that.

3554
03:04:05,840 --> 03:04:09,139
And, you know, really making some decisions and that's

3555
03:04:09,139 --> 03:04:12,840
going to make life easier, certainly for this commission.

3556
03:04:12,840 --> 03:04:16,049
And it's the nibbling away like ducks, you know, bite by

3557
03:04:16,049 --> 03:04:19,159
bite that that kind of destroys any sense of planning or

3558
03:04:19,159 --> 03:04:20,840
well-ordered community.

3559
03:04:20,840 --> 03:04:24,049
And yet that's sort of the only mechanism we have is nib

3560
03:04:24,049 --> 03:04:27,840
bling away bite by bite as each project is brought forward.

3561
03:04:27,840 --> 03:04:34,840
So the idea of of SUPs is kind of more of the same.

3562
03:04:34,840 --> 03:04:39,399
But but I recognize the value where we do have these outs

3563
03:04:39,399 --> 03:04:43,510
ized projects, at least viewed by some as outsized projects

3564
03:04:43,510 --> 03:04:47,329
in some of these sensitive areas that, you know, I respect

3565
03:04:47,329 --> 03:04:49,840
the impulse to try to give the community at least some

3566
03:04:49,840 --> 03:04:49,840
opportunity.

3567
03:04:49,840 --> 03:04:53,170
You know, to share their views with you routinely on those

3568
03:04:53,170 --> 03:04:56,260
concern raised at work session was you're just going to

3569
03:04:56,260 --> 03:04:58,840
catch too many dolphins with the tuna.

3570
03:04:58,840 --> 03:05:02,110
And, you know, every you have to go through this process on

3571
03:05:02,110 --> 03:05:04,840
everything that wouldn't otherwise need it.

3572
03:05:04,840 --> 03:05:09,059
So my simple recommendation to you would be to put some

3573
03:05:09,059 --> 03:05:13,149
kind of a, you know, some kind of a floor on it that, you

3574
03:05:13,149 --> 03:05:17,649
know, every multifamily project with more than I'm making

3575
03:05:17,649 --> 03:05:18,840
up a number of people.

3576
03:05:18,840 --> 03:05:22,350
I'm making up a number 30 bedrooms needs to go through an

3577
03:05:22,350 --> 03:05:22,840
SUP.

3578
03:05:22,840 --> 03:05:26,450
And then I think it meets the objective of saying until we

3579
03:05:26,450 --> 03:05:29,840
have an actual plan, we'll talk about each one.

3580
03:05:29,840 --> 03:05:32,840
But by each one, we only mean the big ones.

3581
03:05:32,840 --> 03:05:33,840
That's what I suggest to you.

3582
03:05:33,840 --> 03:05:36,840
Thanks.

3583
03:05:36,840 --> 03:05:38,840
Again, this is a public hearing.

3584
03:05:38,840 --> 03:05:44,840
Anyone else wish to wish to speak on this item?

3585
03:05:44,840 --> 03:05:47,840
Seeing none, I will close the public hearing.

3586
03:05:47,840 --> 03:05:48,840
We're back.

3587
03:05:48,840 --> 03:05:49,840
Thank you, Chair.

3588
03:05:49,840 --> 03:05:52,920
Got a question for legal and then would like to make a

3589
03:05:52,920 --> 03:05:53,840
statement.

3590
03:05:53,840 --> 03:06:01,120
Who initiates overlay districts or SAPs, small action or

3591
03:06:01,120 --> 03:06:02,840
small area plans?

3592
03:06:02,840 --> 03:06:04,840
The small area plans?

3593
03:06:04,840 --> 03:06:06,840
Well, or the SUPs.

3594
03:06:06,840 --> 03:06:07,840
And overlay districts.

3595
03:06:07,840 --> 03:06:11,440
Does that start with somebody at city level or is that

3596
03:06:11,440 --> 03:06:13,840
somebody out in the community?

3597
03:06:13,840 --> 03:06:14,840
It can.

3598
03:06:14,840 --> 03:06:15,840
It can be city.

3599
03:06:15,840 --> 03:06:15,840
Right.

3600
03:06:15,840 --> 03:06:16,840
It can be either.

3601
03:06:16,840 --> 03:06:19,840
It can be city or it can be -- right.

3602
03:06:19,840 --> 03:06:21,840
Or citizen initiated.

3603
03:06:21,840 --> 03:06:22,840
Okay.

3604
03:06:22,840 --> 03:06:25,840
Who within the city then would initiate it?

3605
03:06:25,840 --> 03:06:27,840
Mostly --

3606
03:06:27,840 --> 03:06:29,840
Our long-range planning department.

3607
03:06:29,840 --> 03:06:33,840
Ron Mingito is going to speak today.

3608
03:06:33,840 --> 03:06:34,840
That would be me.

3609
03:06:34,840 --> 03:06:35,840
Okay.

3610
03:06:35,840 --> 03:06:40,840
So you would do it based on somebody's recommendation or --

3611
03:06:40,840 --> 03:06:41,840
Yeah.

3612
03:06:41,840 --> 03:06:43,809
We have, as you know, we have an existing small area plan,

3613
03:06:43,809 --> 03:06:44,840
the Friday Street overlay.

3614
03:06:44,840 --> 03:06:45,840
Right.

3615
03:06:45,840 --> 03:06:47,840
I'm sorry, Friday Street small area plan.

3616
03:06:47,840 --> 03:06:48,840
Yeah.

3617
03:06:48,840 --> 03:06:53,500
And just a quick note, we have started the process of the

3618
03:06:53,500 --> 03:06:55,840
small area plan study for this

3619
03:06:55,840 --> 03:06:56,840
area.

3620
03:06:56,840 --> 03:06:59,840
We just haven't gotten it kicked off yet.

3621
03:06:59,840 --> 03:07:00,840
Okay.

3622
03:07:00,840 --> 03:07:01,840
Okay.

3623
03:07:01,840 --> 03:07:02,840
Thank you.

3624
03:07:02,840 --> 03:07:09,840
Regarding the SUP, I'm for it, really.

3625
03:07:09,840 --> 03:07:13,049
Now, there's probably something we can do better, but I

3626
03:07:13,049 --> 03:07:14,840
think staff has looked at this pretty

3627
03:07:14,840 --> 03:07:15,840
differently.

3628
03:07:15,840 --> 03:07:18,450
And I think maybe some here are overthinking this a little

3629
03:07:18,450 --> 03:07:19,840
bit because when I first read

3630
03:07:19,840 --> 03:07:22,520
it, I thought here's the perfect tool to control the very

3631
03:07:22,520 --> 03:07:24,840
situations we ran into two weeks

3632
03:07:24,840 --> 03:07:25,840
ago.

3633
03:07:25,840 --> 03:07:29,170
As I mentioned in the workshop, I realize we're dealing

3634
03:07:29,170 --> 03:07:30,840
with a large area here, but

3635
03:07:30,840 --> 03:07:37,559
I don't think there's going to be hardly any challenge for

3636
03:07:37,559 --> 03:07:40,840
somebody who wants to build

3637
03:07:40,840 --> 03:07:45,479
something with high density and large heights, pretty much

3638
03:07:45,479 --> 03:07:47,840
anywhere close to this area, except

3639
03:07:47,840 --> 03:07:51,840
for a few neighborhoods, obviously, north of UNT.

3640
03:07:51,840 --> 03:07:56,200
But it's a good tool to at least step in and protect a

3641
03:07:56,200 --> 03:07:58,840
sensitive neighborhood when we've

3642
03:07:58,840 --> 03:07:59,840
got nothing else.

3643
03:07:59,840 --> 03:08:03,790
When it's already zoned and if that were in place tonight,

3644
03:08:03,790 --> 03:08:05,840
I wouldn't have had an easier

3645
03:08:05,840 --> 03:08:09,190
time voting yes on this, knowing that with an SUP, we could

3646
03:08:09,190 --> 03:08:10,840
have some restrictions on

3647
03:08:10,840 --> 03:08:11,840
it.

3648
03:08:11,840 --> 03:08:13,840
So I think the staff has looked at it critically.

3649
03:08:13,840 --> 03:08:17,629
I think if you overthink this too much, it'll make it

3650
03:08:17,629 --> 03:08:19,840
probably more complicated.

3651
03:08:19,840 --> 03:08:24,840
So I think it's a good plan, and I would vote for it.

3652
03:08:24,840 --> 03:08:26,840
Commissioner Ellis.

3653
03:08:26,840 --> 03:08:27,840
Thank you, Chair.

3654
03:08:27,840 --> 03:08:31,690
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this and

3655
03:08:31,690 --> 03:08:33,840
wanting to approve it because I'm

3656
03:08:33,840 --> 03:08:35,840
just still so confused on how we got here.

3657
03:08:35,840 --> 03:08:39,840
You know, the discussion started with counsel talking about

3658
03:08:39,840 --> 03:08:41,840
SROs and a definition and then

3659
03:08:41,840 --> 03:08:43,809
gave you direction that I wish they didn't give you, and I

3660
03:08:43,809 --> 03:08:44,840
understand that's what you

3661
03:08:44,840 --> 03:08:45,840
had to do.

3662
03:08:45,840 --> 03:08:48,659
That's what you're tasked with, and that's what we're

3663
03:08:48,659 --> 03:08:49,840
tasked with today.

3664
03:08:49,840 --> 03:08:54,190
I just think, you know, contrary to what Chair may believe

3665
03:08:54,190 --> 03:08:56,840
about me, I'm really not anti-development.

3666
03:08:56,840 --> 03:09:01,840
It's a specific area that I've had issue with.

3667
03:09:01,840 --> 03:09:06,370
And I do think that this steps on toes of, you know, areas

3668
03:09:06,370 --> 03:09:08,840
that, you know, and hinders

3669
03:09:08,840 --> 03:09:11,440
development where it doesn't need to be hindered and it

3670
03:09:11,440 --> 03:09:12,840
doesn't really address the issue at

3671
03:09:12,840 --> 03:09:18,110
hand, which were these collegiate housing developments in

3672
03:09:18,110 --> 03:09:19,840
specific areas.

3673
03:09:19,840 --> 03:09:22,700
So I guess my question for Ron on this is you talked about

3674
03:09:22,700 --> 03:09:23,840
small area plans.

3675
03:09:23,840 --> 03:09:25,840
Did you talk to counsel about that?

3676
03:09:25,840 --> 03:09:29,840
Did that come up in this discussion?

3677
03:09:29,840 --> 03:09:34,840
[ Inaudible ]

3678
03:09:34,840 --> 03:09:37,840
Addressed during those discussions, during work session.

3679
03:09:37,840 --> 03:09:40,840
And yet they still gave you direction?

3680
03:09:40,840 --> 03:09:41,840
Right.

3681
03:09:41,840 --> 03:09:46,200
Again, the timing probably was the main issue to get a

3682
03:09:46,200 --> 03:09:47,840
small area plan.

3683
03:09:47,840 --> 03:09:49,840
We're still in the initial stages.

3684
03:09:49,840 --> 03:09:53,840
What is the -- I know there's no specific time, but I mean,

3685
03:09:53,840 --> 03:09:54,840
is there a ballpark figure

3686
03:09:54,840 --> 03:09:56,840
that you gave them that scared them or --

3687
03:09:56,840 --> 03:10:00,780
We actually, as I mentioned earlier, we haven't officially

3688
03:10:00,780 --> 03:10:02,840
kicked it off, but we anticipate

3689
03:10:02,840 --> 03:10:03,840
getting it started soon.

3690
03:10:03,840 --> 03:10:08,440
And as you know, it will take some time before a study can

3691
03:10:08,440 --> 03:10:09,840
be completed.

3692
03:10:09,840 --> 03:10:15,040
So there was not an immediate timeline that we presented to

3693
03:10:15,040 --> 03:10:15,840
them.

3694
03:10:15,840 --> 03:10:19,280
As that's being discussed, is there a way for the city, if

3695
03:10:19,280 --> 03:10:21,840
there -- let's take this area,

3696
03:10:21,840 --> 03:10:24,049
for example, north of the university that we've been

3697
03:10:24,049 --> 03:10:25,840
discussing today and a couple of

3698
03:10:25,840 --> 03:10:29,540
weeks ago and a month before that, if we were discussing a

3699
03:10:29,540 --> 03:10:31,840
small area plan, if you all were

3700
03:10:31,840 --> 03:10:36,750
initiating that discussion, can some kind of stoppage on

3701
03:10:36,750 --> 03:10:39,840
building be done at that point?

3702
03:10:39,840 --> 03:10:42,299
Can the city do something like that or do things just

3703
03:10:42,299 --> 03:10:44,840
continue as is until this gets done?

3704
03:10:44,840 --> 03:10:45,840
Correct.

3705
03:10:45,840 --> 03:10:48,520
Unless there's direction from counsel to do something like

3706
03:10:48,520 --> 03:10:49,840
what you just suggested.

3707
03:10:49,840 --> 03:10:52,840
So yeah, I'm just trying to follow counsel's mind on this.

3708
03:10:52,840 --> 03:10:56,549
Is that what they were trying to do by doing this blanket

3709
03:10:56,549 --> 03:10:58,840
SUP thing that, again, I don't

3710
03:10:58,840 --> 03:11:02,069
really think does what perhaps they set out to do in

3711
03:11:02,069 --> 03:11:04,840
November and it got kind of convoluted.

3712
03:11:04,840 --> 03:11:09,200
Because honestly, an SUP -- I mean, I don't even think

3713
03:11:09,200 --> 03:11:11,840
addresses a collegiate housing project

3714
03:11:11,840 --> 03:11:14,290
because, number one, we already know from talking to the

3715
03:11:14,290 --> 03:11:15,840
developers that it has to be a certain

3716
03:11:15,840 --> 03:11:17,840
size for it to even work.

3717
03:11:17,840 --> 03:11:21,840
It's all based on numbers for those types of projects.

3718
03:11:21,840 --> 03:11:25,069
So even if they went through the expense and we went

3719
03:11:25,069 --> 03:11:26,840
through the discussion, I still don't

3720
03:11:26,840 --> 03:11:29,840
think we would ever get to terms.

3721
03:11:29,840 --> 03:11:34,500
We didn't certainly on the discussion a couple of weeks ago

3722
03:11:34,500 --> 03:11:34,840
.

3723
03:11:34,840 --> 03:11:40,809
So it seems like such a waste of expense and time for not

3724
03:11:40,809 --> 03:11:44,840
only developers but staff, too,

3725
03:11:44,840 --> 03:11:50,360
and unnecessary for a good portion of this downtown urban

3726
03:11:50,360 --> 03:11:53,840
district, these D zones that

3727
03:11:53,840 --> 03:11:55,840
aren't necessary.

3728
03:11:55,840 --> 03:12:00,059
Did that come up with your discussion with counsel, the --

3729
03:12:00,059 --> 03:12:01,840
readdressing the D zones and

3730
03:12:01,840 --> 03:12:02,840
its criteria?

3731
03:12:02,840 --> 03:12:04,840
There was some discussion.

3732
03:12:04,840 --> 03:12:08,790
The mayor did bring up, you know, smaller developments and

3733
03:12:08,790 --> 03:12:10,840
how that would be affected.

3734
03:12:10,840 --> 03:12:14,829
I believe he asked about timing and cost, and we provided

3735
03:12:14,829 --> 03:12:16,840
that information and still

3736
03:12:16,840 --> 03:12:18,840
went forward with the direction to move forward.

3737
03:12:18,840 --> 03:12:19,840
I see.

3738
03:12:19,840 --> 03:12:20,840
Okay.

3739
03:12:20,840 --> 03:12:21,840
Thanks.

3740
03:12:21,840 --> 03:12:24,840
I'll let other people talk.

3741
03:12:24,840 --> 03:12:25,840
I'll respond back.

3742
03:12:25,840 --> 03:12:27,840
I appreciate your comments.

3743
03:12:27,840 --> 03:12:31,350
And, yes, I respect that sometimes we may agree on one item

3744
03:12:31,350 --> 03:12:32,840
and the next we disagree,

3745
03:12:32,840 --> 03:12:36,260
but at the end of the night we just continue on and each do

3746
03:12:36,260 --> 03:12:37,840
what we think is best.

3747
03:12:37,840 --> 03:12:39,840
So I appreciate that.

3748
03:12:39,840 --> 03:12:43,840
And respect that from you.

3749
03:12:43,840 --> 03:12:48,840
I have a lot of concern about this.

3750
03:12:48,840 --> 03:12:51,770
In listening to our staff presentation, it sounds like this

3751
03:12:51,770 --> 03:12:53,840
is about the third or fourth

3752
03:12:53,840 --> 03:12:58,190
attempt from counsel's direction on how to address a very

3753
03:12:58,190 --> 03:12:59,840
specific issue, and let's just

3754
03:12:59,840 --> 03:13:02,840
call it what it is, the SRO issue.

3755
03:13:02,840 --> 03:13:06,850
And it's a very global approach over a very large area of

3756
03:13:06,850 --> 03:13:07,840
our city.

3757
03:13:07,840 --> 03:13:11,760
And I'm very concerned about how that will impact very

3758
03:13:11,760 --> 03:13:13,840
small projects that are not really

3759
03:13:13,840 --> 03:13:15,840
what the problem is.

3760
03:13:15,840 --> 03:13:19,129
And I think the cost and the time involved, to your point,

3761
03:13:19,129 --> 03:13:20,840
are very well taken because

3762
03:13:20,840 --> 03:13:24,069
I think there will be a lot of dolphins that get caught in

3763
03:13:24,069 --> 03:13:25,840
the tuna net, to use another

3764
03:13:25,840 --> 03:13:27,840
analogy here this evening.

3765
03:13:27,840 --> 03:13:31,399
And I think it doesn't send the right message to the people

3766
03:13:31,399 --> 03:13:32,840
that are coming to our city

3767
03:13:32,840 --> 03:13:37,190
to do business, that if there's a particular issue in one

3768
03:13:37,190 --> 03:13:38,840
area and we're not able to deal

3769
03:13:38,840 --> 03:13:41,600
with it, we might just throw a blanket over the whole thing

3770
03:13:41,600 --> 03:13:41,840
.

3771
03:13:41,840 --> 03:13:48,049
And I think it sends a very -- I don't think it sends the

3772
03:13:48,049 --> 03:13:49,840
right message to people that

3773
03:13:49,840 --> 03:13:52,840
want to come and do business here in our city.

3774
03:13:52,840 --> 03:13:57,190
And yet I also understand that, you know, our board is a

3775
03:13:57,190 --> 03:13:58,840
recommending board to city

3776
03:13:58,840 --> 03:14:03,840
council, and this is a city council directed issue.

3777
03:14:03,840 --> 03:14:07,170
And I think this needs to be moved on this evening rather

3778
03:14:07,170 --> 03:14:08,840
than continued and kicked

3779
03:14:08,840 --> 03:14:12,540
around and talked about and let city council get to the

3780
03:14:12,540 --> 03:14:13,840
bottom of this.

3781
03:14:13,840 --> 03:14:15,840
At the end of the day, they get to decide.

3782
03:14:15,840 --> 03:14:19,549
They're the ones that are held accountable voting-wise, and

3783
03:14:19,549 --> 03:14:20,840
we find folks here get

3784
03:14:20,840 --> 03:14:23,840
appointed and serve at the pleasure until we're not at the

3785
03:14:23,840 --> 03:14:25,840
pleasure anymore or we're

3786
03:14:25,840 --> 03:14:27,840
term-limited out.

3787
03:14:27,840 --> 03:14:33,649
And so with that, I'm going to go ahead and get a motion on

3788
03:14:33,649 --> 03:14:35,840
the table here, and I'd

3789
03:14:35,840 --> 03:14:37,840
like to have some further discussion.

3790
03:14:37,840 --> 03:14:42,059
And my motion is going to be for denial to move this on to

3791
03:14:42,059 --> 03:14:43,840
city council, and then they

3792
03:14:43,840 --> 03:14:46,870
can take it up and they can discuss it further, and

3793
03:14:46,870 --> 03:14:49,840
hopefully they can come up with a

3794
03:14:49,840 --> 03:14:54,200
resolution with staff's help and guidance that addresses

3795
03:14:54,200 --> 03:14:56,840
the issue that really needs

3796
03:14:56,840 --> 03:15:02,690
to get addressed rather than a -- what I think is an over

3797
03:15:02,690 --> 03:15:05,840
kill issue to a very specific

3798
03:15:05,840 --> 03:15:08,299
problem that I think will have and could have a lot of

3799
03:15:08,299 --> 03:15:09,840
unintended consequences.

3800
03:15:09,840 --> 03:15:13,840
And so with that, my motion is for denial on this.

3801
03:15:13,840 --> 03:15:15,840
Commissioner Rozelle.

3802
03:15:15,840 --> 03:15:16,840
Thank you, Chair.

3803
03:15:16,840 --> 03:15:20,549
I just have a decent point and probably a less decent point

3804
03:15:20,549 --> 03:15:21,840
, admittedly.

3805
03:15:21,840 --> 03:15:26,899
But the first one is we talk tonight about zoning creep,

3806
03:15:26,899 --> 03:15:29,840
that if we change this property,

3807
03:15:29,840 --> 03:15:32,250
then we can go ahead and change the next property, the next

3808
03:15:32,250 --> 03:15:32,840
property.

3809
03:15:32,840 --> 03:15:37,209
And I see some similarities in terms of the power trying to

3810
03:15:37,209 --> 03:15:39,840
be given over to this commission

3811
03:15:39,840 --> 03:15:40,840
and to city council.

3812
03:15:40,840 --> 03:15:45,200
I don't know the logical end, but if we're now saying any

3813
03:15:45,200 --> 03:15:47,840
commercial area can't be built

3814
03:15:47,840 --> 03:15:51,299
by rights, where's the next step in which council or this

3815
03:15:51,299 --> 03:15:52,840
commission wants to put on

3816
03:15:52,840 --> 03:15:55,840
SUP requirements for some building in the future?

3817
03:15:55,840 --> 03:15:59,219
There starts to be a creep of the control in which we would

3818
03:15:59,219 --> 03:16:00,840
like or the council would

3819
03:16:00,840 --> 03:16:04,840
like to add input and remove the by right building.

3820
03:16:04,840 --> 03:16:06,840
Does this creep into residential neighborhoods?

3821
03:16:06,840 --> 03:16:10,489
Should we now start getting SUPs for basic houses because

3822
03:16:10,489 --> 03:16:12,840
we want to check the roof pitch?

3823
03:16:12,840 --> 03:16:15,559
I don't know what the logical end is, and I am speaking

3824
03:16:15,559 --> 03:16:16,840
hyperbolically here, but

3825
03:16:16,840 --> 03:16:21,309
nevertheless, it seems like this is authoritative creeping

3826
03:16:21,309 --> 03:16:23,840
in terms of the power that we should

3827
03:16:23,840 --> 03:16:26,840
have in regards to the zoning that's been established.

3828
03:16:26,840 --> 03:16:28,840
That's my first point.

3829
03:16:28,840 --> 03:16:33,190
The second one is I know staff was saying that there is

3830
03:16:33,190 --> 03:16:35,840
benefit to having the SUP process

3831
03:16:35,840 --> 03:16:37,840
because sometimes it benefits the applicant.

3832
03:16:37,840 --> 03:16:41,450
And not to mix metaphors too much, but if I'm not speeding

3833
03:16:41,450 --> 03:16:42,840
and I get pulled over by the

3834
03:16:42,840 --> 03:16:45,850
police officer, that police officer gives me an opportunity

3835
03:16:45,850 --> 03:16:46,840
to defend myself, but I'd

3836
03:16:46,840 --> 03:16:48,860
much rather not have been pulled over for speeding when I

3837
03:16:48,860 --> 03:16:50,840
wasn't speeding to begin with.

3838
03:16:50,840 --> 03:16:53,520
And so I don't see a massive dissimilarity when someone

3839
03:16:53,520 --> 03:16:54,840
comes in by right to build and

3840
03:16:54,840 --> 03:16:58,440
we're like, well, we just want to check everything out, get

3841
03:16:58,440 --> 03:16:59,840
approval by a rolling commission

3842
03:16:59,840 --> 03:17:02,690
that then gets moved on to council by a rolling council to

3843
03:17:02,690 --> 03:17:03,840
then get approved.

3844
03:17:03,840 --> 03:17:08,360
I'd much rather go ahead and second this motion, put it to

3845
03:17:08,360 --> 03:17:09,840
council to come up with a more

3846
03:17:09,840 --> 03:17:13,829
definitive solution than having an SUP be very arbitrary

3847
03:17:13,829 --> 03:17:15,840
from project to project.

3848
03:17:15,840 --> 03:17:18,840
Commissioner Sullivan.

3849
03:17:18,840 --> 03:17:19,840
Thank you.

3850
03:17:19,840 --> 03:17:24,840
I'm looking through the information we have here.

3851
03:17:24,840 --> 03:17:33,450
49,000 dwelling units, 42% multifamily is 20,580 multif

3852
03:17:33,450 --> 03:17:35,840
amily housing units.

3853
03:17:35,840 --> 03:17:40,559
The city this year, I believe it was, lost $500,000 in

3854
03:17:40,559 --> 03:17:44,840
government money due to the lack of affordable housing.

3855
03:17:44,840 --> 03:17:52,159
And here we are using a sledgehammer to drive a nail into

3856
03:17:52,159 --> 03:17:55,840
preventing collegiate housing that

3857
03:17:55,840 --> 03:18:02,840
in no way could be converted to multifamily housing.

3858
03:18:02,840 --> 03:18:07,190
It in no way brings affordable housing because I don't

3859
03:18:07,190 --> 03:18:09,840
really think that's too affordable housing,

3860
03:18:09,840 --> 03:18:13,840
it's not very affordable housing.

3861
03:18:13,840 --> 03:18:19,649
And so I just don't see that subjecting such a large area

3862
03:18:19,649 --> 03:18:23,840
of the city to get more regulation,

3863
03:18:23,840 --> 03:18:30,770
more questions, more cost when the council has it within

3864
03:18:30,770 --> 03:18:38,840
their authority to simply say yes here and no there.

3865
03:18:38,840 --> 03:18:42,549
I sit on the charter review committee and one of the things

3866
03:18:42,549 --> 03:18:46,840
we've got to talk about is they don't understand the word

3867
03:18:46,840 --> 03:18:48,840
may and shall.

3868
03:18:48,840 --> 03:18:53,649
So we're going to change the charter so that they will hire

3869
03:18:53,649 --> 03:18:57,899
an auditor, not a, you know, that's what it says, you shall

3870
03:18:57,899 --> 03:18:58,840
hire.

3871
03:18:58,840 --> 03:19:03,190
And so I think that I would like to send a message to

3872
03:19:03,190 --> 03:19:05,840
council, y'all need to put a stop to this stuff.

3873
03:19:05,840 --> 03:19:10,540
You know, say this is where it needs to go, this is where

3874
03:19:10,540 --> 03:19:11,840
it can't go.

3875
03:19:11,840 --> 03:19:15,840
End of story and move on with life.

3876
03:19:15,840 --> 03:19:16,840
Commissioner Beck.

3877
03:19:16,840 --> 03:19:18,840
Thank you, chair.

3878
03:19:18,840 --> 03:19:24,649
And again, I just, to Commissioner Rosell's point, you know

3879
03:19:24,649 --> 03:19:28,840
, I appreciate him defining it as hyperbolic.

3880
03:19:28,840 --> 03:19:31,840
Again, we can overthink this thing and that's nothing

3881
03:19:31,840 --> 03:19:34,840
against my good friend Commissioner Rosell at all.

3882
03:19:34,840 --> 03:19:36,840
We're just agree to disagree.

3883
03:19:36,840 --> 03:19:38,840
But this is a very specific agenda.

3884
03:19:38,840 --> 03:19:41,840
It deals strictly with multifamily dwellings.

3885
03:19:41,840 --> 03:19:45,549
I think intent to me anyway was pretty clear, this allows

3886
03:19:45,549 --> 03:19:50,840
us some control when these multifamily dwellings go into

3887
03:19:50,840 --> 03:19:54,840
sensitive neighborhood areas and they turn out to be SROs.

3888
03:19:54,840 --> 03:19:56,840
I thought that's all it was.

3889
03:19:56,840 --> 03:19:57,840
I think that's all it will be.

3890
03:19:57,840 --> 03:19:59,840
I could, of course, be wrong.

3891
03:19:59,840 --> 03:20:01,840
But I'm going to go ahead and still vote for it.

3892
03:20:01,840 --> 03:20:04,530
But I don't have any problem if it doesn't make it through,

3893
03:20:04,530 --> 03:20:07,000
you know, and gets to council where they have to make a

3894
03:20:07,000 --> 03:20:07,840
decision to.

3895
03:20:07,840 --> 03:20:11,760
But just again, I think it's specific enough and its intent

3896
03:20:11,760 --> 03:20:15,840
is clear enough where I don't have a problem voting for it.

3897
03:20:15,840 --> 03:20:16,840
Okay.

3898
03:20:16,840 --> 03:20:18,840
Commissioner Ellis.

3899
03:20:18,840 --> 03:20:23,840
Thank you, chair.

3900
03:20:23,840 --> 03:20:26,719
I absolutely am in support of denial of this because I

3901
03:20:26,719 --> 03:20:29,840
absolutely don't think it addresses the true issue.

3902
03:20:29,840 --> 03:20:33,370
So my hope is that council denies it as well and gives you

3903
03:20:33,370 --> 03:20:34,840
different direction.

3904
03:20:34,840 --> 03:20:39,059
Because I think the direction is you need to address the

3905
03:20:39,059 --> 03:20:45,840
collegiate housing issue definition, where it's allowed.

3906
03:20:45,840 --> 03:20:49,049
Let's talk about DCG zoning or maybe something needs to be

3907
03:20:49,049 --> 03:20:51,840
in between the 45 and the 100 feet.

3908
03:20:51,840 --> 03:20:54,569
Let's talk about city initiated zoning, especially between

3909
03:20:54,569 --> 03:20:55,840
the historic districts.

3910
03:20:55,840 --> 03:21:00,680
There's issues that I hope council will see need to be

3911
03:21:00,680 --> 03:21:05,739
addressed that will address the specific issue of cont

3912
03:21:05,739 --> 03:21:08,840
ention in this city right now.

3913
03:21:08,840 --> 03:21:13,620
This doesn't do it and it unfortunately, it just -- it's

3914
03:21:13,620 --> 03:21:16,840
not working on the right problem.

3915
03:21:16,840 --> 03:21:19,840
So I certainly can't support it as it's written.

3916
03:21:19,840 --> 03:21:20,840
Okay.

3917
03:21:20,840 --> 03:21:23,840
Commissioner Hussmuth.

3918
03:21:23,840 --> 03:21:25,840
Thank you, chair.

3919
03:21:25,840 --> 03:21:30,899
Briefly, I think what's missing -- I think it does reach a

3920
03:21:30,899 --> 03:21:35,829
bit far, but I also would like to renew my point from work

3921
03:21:35,829 --> 03:21:37,840
session that it needs citizen input.

3922
03:21:37,840 --> 03:21:44,840
It needs stakeholder and the developer input to it.

3923
03:21:44,840 --> 03:21:49,899
And such that this particular version does not have that

3924
03:21:49,899 --> 03:21:50,840
input.

3925
03:21:50,840 --> 03:21:55,840
It's all kind of internal while thoughtful.

3926
03:21:55,840 --> 03:21:59,950
It just -- I think it would be better -- it's just better

3927
03:21:59,950 --> 03:22:04,120
if it's more diversely represented and there's more input,

3928
03:22:04,120 --> 03:22:08,840
which by its very nature maybe takes it longer to roll out.

3929
03:22:08,840 --> 03:22:14,649
But I don't want to -- I think -- an SUP requires citizens

3930
03:22:14,649 --> 03:22:15,840
to come up and talk.

3931
03:22:15,840 --> 03:22:19,450
And then they may or may not be -- that conversation or

3932
03:22:19,450 --> 03:22:22,840
those comments may not be weighted properly.

3933
03:22:22,840 --> 03:22:25,090
So I think to have their input on the front end where they

3934
03:22:25,090 --> 03:22:28,649
're shaping it, they're crafting it, where they know they're

3935
03:22:28,649 --> 03:22:33,350
getting representation is a better product than what would

3936
03:22:33,350 --> 03:22:38,059
happen in a hearing where they stand before a, again, mig

3937
03:22:38,059 --> 03:22:41,840
rating body that then may or may not receive their comments

3938
03:22:41,840 --> 03:22:41,840
well.

3939
03:22:41,840 --> 03:22:43,840
So thank you.

3940
03:22:43,840 --> 03:22:44,840
Commissioner Ellis.

3941
03:22:44,840 --> 03:22:47,840
Just a quick comment on Commissioner Hudspeth's discussion.

3942
03:22:47,840 --> 03:22:51,309
I don't know that we'd ever get a developer who would want

3943
03:22:51,309 --> 03:22:54,860
an SUP because it's just -- it's another layer for them and

3944
03:22:54,860 --> 03:22:56,840
more expense and more time.

3945
03:22:56,840 --> 03:23:00,409
So I don't know what their input for this particular thing

3946
03:23:00,409 --> 03:23:00,840
is.

3947
03:23:00,840 --> 03:23:05,190
I do know that when staff puts together and we as a

3948
03:23:05,190 --> 03:23:09,260
recommending body and city council as a voting body and

3949
03:23:09,260 --> 03:23:12,389
decision maker, you know, we have to put these things in

3950
03:23:12,389 --> 03:23:13,840
place that are best for our city, not necessarily best for

3951
03:23:13,840 --> 03:23:13,840
the city.

3952
03:23:13,840 --> 03:23:16,840
Not necessarily best for the developer per se.

3953
03:23:16,840 --> 03:23:19,520
So I'm not sure we'd ever get them on board with an SUP

3954
03:23:19,520 --> 03:23:20,840
discussion anyway.

3955
03:23:20,840 --> 03:23:22,840
That's just my thought.

3956
03:23:22,840 --> 03:23:23,840
Commissioner Beck.

3957
03:23:23,840 --> 03:23:26,049
I'm going to let Commissioner Hudspeth go ahead and speak

3958
03:23:26,049 --> 03:23:27,840
because I know he wants to reply directly.

3959
03:23:27,840 --> 03:23:29,840
If that's okay, then I'll follow him.

3960
03:23:29,840 --> 03:23:29,840
Sure.

3961
03:23:29,840 --> 03:23:31,840
We'll recognize Commissioner Hudspeth.

3962
03:23:31,840 --> 03:23:33,840
That's so kind of you.

3963
03:23:33,840 --> 03:23:36,840
You're awesome.

3964
03:23:36,840 --> 03:23:40,200
No, I think your point is valid, but I think also that's

3965
03:23:40,200 --> 03:23:43,840
where as a council and as a body I think we miss it, right?

3966
03:23:43,840 --> 03:23:47,180
So if I extend the invitation and you reject it or you don

3967
03:23:47,180 --> 03:23:50,280
't negotiate in earnest, then I can say I extended the

3968
03:23:50,280 --> 03:23:53,219
invitation and I tried to earnestly deal with you and you

3969
03:23:53,219 --> 03:23:53,840
did not.

3970
03:23:53,840 --> 03:23:57,840
Versus them continuing to say we don't ever loop them in.

3971
03:23:57,840 --> 03:24:00,969
I can say I always loop you in and you always come up with

3972
03:24:00,969 --> 03:24:04,139
answers that aren't realistic or you're not willing to

3973
03:24:04,139 --> 03:24:04,840
engage.

3974
03:24:04,840 --> 03:24:09,190
You know, that to me puts a city and it's a better

3975
03:24:09,190 --> 03:24:12,790
representation of our city to me that hey, I tried to

3976
03:24:12,790 --> 03:24:15,840
include you in all earnestly, but you just would not.

3977
03:24:15,840 --> 03:24:16,840
And that's okay.

3978
03:24:16,840 --> 03:24:19,549
But I just at least want to at least send the invitation

3979
03:24:19,549 --> 03:24:22,360
and then you can they can decide if they want to engage or

3980
03:24:22,360 --> 03:24:22,840
not.

3981
03:24:22,840 --> 03:24:24,840
But I tried.

3982
03:24:24,840 --> 03:24:25,840
Commissioner Beck.

3983
03:24:25,840 --> 03:24:28,840
Thank you, Chair.

3984
03:24:28,840 --> 03:24:34,239
This is probably a question for either legal or excuse me

3985
03:24:34,239 --> 03:24:38,840
illustrious director of planning up there.

3986
03:24:38,840 --> 03:24:41,190
This thing is probably going to go down in flames despite

3987
03:24:41,190 --> 03:24:47,360
that I'm going to vote for it anyway, but if it were to go

3988
03:24:47,360 --> 03:24:48,840
through.

3989
03:24:48,840 --> 03:24:53,579
I mean, just as because I see it as a good tool, how

3990
03:24:53,579 --> 03:24:58,959
different once it's and got passed by City Council. How

3991
03:24:58,959 --> 03:25:00,829
difficult is it to turn it back around if we do see enough

3992
03:25:00,829 --> 03:25:03,129
problems with it that it's not serving the purpose that at

3993
03:25:03,129 --> 03:25:04,840
least I think it will.

3994
03:25:04,840 --> 03:25:08,229
Let me just make sure I understand your question. If City

3995
03:25:08,229 --> 03:25:09,840
Council does what with it.

3996
03:25:09,840 --> 03:25:14,200
If if if it didn't go down in flames and made it to City

3997
03:25:14,200 --> 03:25:18,840
Council and they approved it to this this agenda item.

3998
03:25:18,840 --> 03:25:21,780
How difficult would it be to reverse this if we know it

3999
03:25:21,780 --> 03:25:24,780
came to light to people like me to be the same process we

4000
03:25:24,780 --> 03:25:27,909
're taking now would be a it would be an amendment to the to

4001
03:25:27,909 --> 03:25:31,149
the code like we're doing now so we're in the same world

4002
03:25:31,149 --> 03:25:35,840
that we could turn it around if we.

4003
03:25:35,840 --> 03:25:40,780
I'll leave that to your your fellow commissioners to define

4004
03:25:40,780 --> 03:25:44,940
but no no it's it's the same process it's just a code

4005
03:25:44,940 --> 03:25:46,840
amendment process so I mean.

4006
03:25:46,840 --> 03:26:06,840
I just want to interject just a little bit. If this does by

4007
03:26:06,840 --> 03:26:06,840
some miracle pass and you decide that this isn't what you

4008
03:26:06,840 --> 03:26:06,840
want to do. We are doing the DDC rewrite. And so there's an

4009
03:26:06,840 --> 03:26:06,840
opportunity to fix these to write these wrongs if you will.

4010
03:26:06,840 --> 03:26:11,840
Next year. That's a good point. Thank you.

4011
03:26:11,840 --> 03:26:16,200
We have a motion and a second on the floor for a denial of

4012
03:26:16,200 --> 03:26:20,079
this. I'm going to call for any other questions or

4013
03:26:20,079 --> 03:26:22,840
discussions before I call for a vote.

4014
03:26:22,840 --> 03:26:31,889
My house so it was Commissioner strange on the motion and

4015
03:26:31,889 --> 03:26:35,840
result in the second.

4016
03:26:35,840 --> 03:26:40,389
Okay seeing no other requests for discussion again the

4017
03:26:40,389 --> 03:26:45,209
motion before us is a vote or is a motion for denial. So a

4018
03:26:45,209 --> 03:26:49,840
vote for is to deny this on to city council.

4019
03:26:49,840 --> 03:27:02,840
Okay. So with that I will call for a vote on the board.

4020
03:27:02,840 --> 03:27:07,059
And the motion carries five to one that will move us to our

4021
03:27:07,059 --> 03:27:11,030
final item on our agenda this evening which is going to be

4022
03:27:11,030 --> 03:27:12,840
our project matrix.

4023
03:27:12,840 --> 03:27:18,659
I am taking any requests for more information to add to our

4024
03:27:18,659 --> 03:27:19,840
matrix.

4025
03:27:19,840 --> 03:27:21,840
Commissioner Ellis.

4026
03:27:21,840 --> 03:27:23,840
Thank you.

4027
03:27:23,840 --> 03:27:28,899
Well this is probably piggybacking on one that's already

4028
03:27:28,899 --> 03:27:32,979
there but it has to do with signage on lots. I know we've

4029
03:27:32,979 --> 03:27:33,649
had this discussion. I need an update of where are we

4030
03:27:33,649 --> 03:27:34,840
because there's no improvement.

4031
03:27:34,840 --> 03:27:38,069
I drove by the property that that was postponed today with

4032
03:27:38,069 --> 03:27:39,840
in off of thirty five there.

4033
03:27:39,840 --> 03:27:43,280
Those signs are so small you absolutely still cannot read

4034
03:27:43,280 --> 03:27:43,840
them.

4035
03:27:43,840 --> 03:27:46,520
And I also had a neighbor come to me on the hops and

4036
03:27:46,520 --> 03:27:49,659
country club one and she said she tried multiple times to

4037
03:27:49,659 --> 03:27:51,840
try to read it take pictures of it.

4038
03:27:51,840 --> 03:27:55,180
She just couldn't do it. So need an update on where we are

4039
03:27:55,180 --> 03:27:57,649
for that for improving that because we desperately need

4040
03:27:57,649 --> 03:27:59,840
that improved.

4041
03:27:59,840 --> 03:28:03,360
Just to be clear this is for signage for zoning and rez

4042
03:28:03,360 --> 03:28:04,840
oning for public right.

4043
03:28:04,840 --> 03:28:08,379
Our postage on these these lots for for a public hearing

4044
03:28:08,379 --> 03:28:14,840
for zoning change. Yes.

4045
03:28:14,840 --> 03:28:15,840
Anything else.

4046
03:28:15,840 --> 03:28:17,840
Commissioner Roselle.

4047
03:28:17,840 --> 03:28:18,840
Thank you.

4048
03:28:18,840 --> 03:28:21,959
Maybe it goes the same but I wanted to make it official. I

4049
03:28:21,959 --> 03:28:27,360
would like to know the next steps in the small area plan

4050
03:28:27,360 --> 03:28:32,360
for that north university campus peninsula that sits

4051
03:28:32,360 --> 03:28:35,840
between the historic district and the Hickory historic

4052
03:28:35,840 --> 03:28:36,840
district.

4053
03:28:36,840 --> 03:28:41,190
It seems to be the hotbed of of activity. And so I for one

4054
03:28:41,190 --> 03:28:45,170
don't necessarily want to wait or know the process for

4055
03:28:45,170 --> 03:28:49,139
council to protect that area. So I would like to know the

4056
03:28:49,139 --> 03:28:52,840
steps in order for this commission to move forward with a

4057
03:28:52,840 --> 03:28:56,840
small area plan for that specific area for protection.

4058
03:28:56,840 --> 03:29:01,840
Okay.

4059
03:29:01,840 --> 03:29:04,840
Commissioner has with.

4060
03:29:04,840 --> 03:29:09,770
Just following up on. So there's no identifying number but

4061
03:29:09,770 --> 03:29:14,840
my request for the developer workshop and builder workshop.

4062
03:29:14,840 --> 03:29:19,200
I again I think that insight is just critical for me to

4063
03:29:19,200 --> 03:29:20,840
make decisions.

4064
03:29:20,840 --> 03:29:25,200
I got to understand a day in their life so that I can then

4065
03:29:25,200 --> 03:29:29,309
factor it in either to make help me make better decisions

4066
03:29:29,309 --> 03:29:33,840
or dispel myths rumors you know fake news.

4067
03:29:33,840 --> 03:29:40,899
You know I need to I need to understand that better so just

4068
03:29:40,899 --> 03:29:43,840
renewing that request.

4069
03:29:43,840 --> 03:29:45,840
Commissioner back. Thank you.

4070
03:29:45,840 --> 03:29:50,690
Just on my only two contributions here, the review parking

4071
03:29:50,690 --> 03:29:55,440
space requirements that's been on hold indefinitely and I

4072
03:29:55,440 --> 03:29:59,969
never did get a definitive response on why so I would like

4073
03:29:59,969 --> 03:30:04,840
to get a definitive response on where we're at and if we're

4074
03:30:04,840 --> 03:30:06,840
going to move forward on that for not why not.

4075
03:30:06,840 --> 03:30:11,469
And my other contribution that is marked as completed and I

4076
03:30:11,469 --> 03:30:16,000
agree we did have the presentation about it, but this one

4077
03:30:16,000 --> 03:30:20,809
deals with providing information right to the notifying the

4078
03:30:20,809 --> 03:30:21,840
public.

4079
03:30:21,840 --> 03:30:28,870
We nothing's actually been set in motion. We've had a

4080
03:30:28,870 --> 03:30:36,520
presentation, but nothing's been set in motion on this yet

4081
03:30:36,520 --> 03:30:40,840
so just where we are with that.

4082
03:30:40,840 --> 03:30:45,840
Tackle with the DDC rewrite since this already kicked off.

4083
03:30:45,840 --> 03:30:51,219
So we'll roll that into that project that's already going

4084
03:30:51,219 --> 03:30:54,420
on. Okay. And then as far as the notification requirements

4085
03:30:54,420 --> 03:30:56,940
to signage. We are working on that actually we met this

4086
03:30:56,940 --> 03:30:59,409
week, and we'll be bringing something forward to City

4087
03:30:59,409 --> 03:31:02,840
Council in the, in the near future, in the near future.

4088
03:31:02,840 --> 03:31:04,840
Couldn't be date specific.

4089
03:31:04,840 --> 03:31:17,840
April 25. Okay. Okay. Thank you.

4090
03:31:17,840 --> 03:31:18,840
Okay.

4091
03:31:18,840 --> 03:31:20,840
That it.

4092
03:31:20,840 --> 03:31:21,840
Okay.

4093
03:31:21,840 --> 03:31:30,590
With that I will close our meeting this evening at 834.

4094
03:31:30,590 --> 03:31:35,840
Thank you everyone for coming out.