Planning and Zoning Commission Work Session for October the
26th. This
meeting has been duly posted and we do have a quorum
present. I'm gonna call it
to order at 435. Our first order of business is going to
receive
clarification on agenda items this evening and I will turn
that over to
Manal for presentation. Thank you Chairperson Strange. I
was wanting to seek
the opinion of the Commission tonight to see if the items
for public hearing for
A and for B could be flipped please in the interest of
anticipated viewers and
audience. Maybe we could flip the two items so just wanted
to bring that
forward and from here we can proceed with our first item
which is going to be
the preliminary plat for Ranchview Surgical Hospital. I'll
ask Julie Wyatt to
come and present that or answer any questions since it's
relatively
self-explanatory.
I'll answer any questions. I know you all have seen this
site a few times but I'll
be happy to show you anything or okay thank you. Thank you
Julie.
That was easy. We have another preliminary plat and Mike
Bell is handling this for
Eagle Heights. If there are any questions I'll ask Mike to
come forward.
Commissioner Begg. Thank you Chair. The only question I
have is we're approving the plat but is it
established that there will be multifamily dwelling built
there? That's
what the Alkin has expressed their intent to develop. Okay
but there's
nothing in stone on that. Okay that's all. Thank you.
Moving along to the public hearing items. As I mentioned we
'll deal with
item 4B first which is an alternative ESA for Ryan Meadows
edition and Mike
Bell is going to walk us through this.
Thank you Mike Bell, senior planner. Also have Debra of
Environmental
Services who will be supportive on this case since it's
environmentally sensitive
area. The case is to consider recommendation to City
Council regarding
an environment and alternative environmentally sensitive
area plan for
Ryan Meadows phase two. The property is shown here in
yellow it's south of Ryan
Elementary, south side of Ryan Road, east of Country Club
and to show you on the
right side this is the lot layout that was approved with
the preliminary plat.
So we're really just talking about the southern half.
Commissioner Begg. Thank
you Chair. So that road maybe you do it with your cursor
down there in Creekdale is
going to do an arc through that subdivision? Right well
this is Creekdale
here. Right. I'll show you how it relates to the mobility
plan and just a right
okay I'm just trying to a couple slides. Okay thanks. So it
is just the south
side of the subdivision. This is the combination of the ESA
map and our
city's mobility plan. You can see this is Creekdale Drive
which you were referring
to. That's our mobility plan as a collector street on the
developers
required to construct it. This is all of Ryan Meadows
outlined in yellow so you
can see where it comes through and eventually continue on
east to the
existing Creekdale and further on all the way to Teasley.
There are also three
environmentally sensitive areas in this tract. There's unde
veloped floodplain,
there's some riparian buffer and embedded within that rip
arian buffer is
also some water related ESA. I'll be happy to let Debra go
over those in more
detail if you have questions about what those entail. But
you can see the mobility
plan cut straight through them and there's really no there
's no way around
that. So that's the purpose of this request and again I'll
show you the
highlighted in white here is Creekdale Drive from that
mobility plan and we'll
focus in on this southern part here which you'll see is the
actual ESAs and
there are two areas of encroachment shown in red here and
then where the road
crosses down at the south part. It encapsulates 0.36 acres
of floodplain,
0.07 of water related and 0.39 of riparian buffer. So for
mitigation of
that, the encroachment of those areas the African is
proposing to plant 25 trees
which are those trees shown right there.
Again we did send notification it is a public hearing we
received nothing in
favor or in opposition. Staff is supportive of the request
as for the
considerations in your backup but we do have three
recommended conditions. One
that we you know kind of specify the limitations so that it
's not exceed 0.45
acres is that was subject to the alternative ESA plan that
's in your
backup. There will be 25 trees planted to mitigate the
removal of the ESAs and
those shall be three inches diameter at planning and lastly
that all disturbed
areas shall be revegetated using native plants and with
that I'll be happy to
answer any questions. Commissioner Rossell. Thank you chair
. I think I have two questions to
start. First question is this is can you walk me through
the the balance between
this being a city road and them being required to mitigate
if they're
providing the road on our mobility plan? Right so the the
alignment of Creekdale
is conceptually drawn on the mobility plan. Does not
necessarily have to be
this curve but generally they have to get from up here to
down here through
their property and that's required of them by the city
mobility plan. The exact
alignment is not deterrent so essentially they could you
know curve it
through the side how they please as long as they get to the
to the southern half
and it meets our requirements and there is nothing that
exempts city roads from
not having to do an alternative ESA plan. Okay. So that's
really why we're here
there's no exemption from that and I think there could be
why are we making
them do an ESA plan if we're making them put the road in
but because that
alignments not fixed I think there could be an argument
made that if we didn't
require these so they could run their road straight through
it. Sure. And not
have to do any mitigation. That makes sense. The other
question I had was it's
almost a point four acres of riparian buffer. Last time I
saw the riparian
buffer come into question we actually had photographs of
the condition of the
riparian buffer. Has anyone walked the area to know what
condition the riparian
buffer is in or health of it?
Good evening Commission. We did an assessment in 2014 for
those four three
ESAs and the riparian buffer ranked as a fair. Okay so it
is heavily vegetated. We
only provide protection to the first hundred feet of the
riparian buffer
however the actual buffer extends 200 feet wide. So we
wanted to make that the
distinction of what is being protected under the ESA
regulation what is out
there. So it is a fair condition it is an undeveloped flood
plain the water
related was confirmed so we have a better understanding of
what is out there
based on the field assessments. Is there any creek or water
to your knowledge
standing there right now? Well I went to the site and
actually there were
there was no evidence of water flowing but definitely some
stagnant water so I
think that is intermittent type of a stream where flows
only to certain times
of the year. Thank you. Commissioner Black. Thank you Chair
. So you feel
comfortable with what little work they're going to be doing
through which
is again less than 0.4 that there's not going to be any
loss of any
significant wildlife there is there any there to lose? Well
the this request is a
little bit compound. First we have the ESA the disturbance
to the ESA that
they are doing okay and also we look into what they are
offering as a
mitigation. In this case they have offered to provide
additional planting
adjacent to the ESA not within the ESA but adjacent to the
ESA and the reason
is because they went through a conditional letter of my
revision
through FEMA which allows them to modify that floodplain
okay and that have been
already approved by FEMA subject to work start being done
and then the
conditional letter of my revision becomes a permanent
through a letter of
my revision. If they start putting more trees within the
floodplain that
actually invalid all the parameters that they have modeled
the floodplain
and have determined the boundary of the new floodplain so
what they're doing is
they understand that mitigation is needed but they are
willing to provide
that mitigation adjacent to it. Just keep in mind the same
as this riparian buffer
is 200 feet even though only the first hundred feet is
protected the same
happened with that year is heavily vegetated so adding to
it adding the
mitigation next to it you will make the area greater. I don
't think that exactly
answer my question though is there any essential wildlife
there that would lose
from this? Well we don't have any endangered species
identified by
parks and wildlife in that area. Wildlife yes definitely
there would be when
when you have those urban forests and those riparian buffer
they're definitely
refuge for wildlife so they there would still be a riparian
buffer there and the
disturbance might made those species to relocate
temporarily but hopefully they
will come back. Okay now you mentioned and I realize this
cloner CLOMR when
they can't do you're talking about the trees the mitigation
part with the
trees that's outside of this area but you also mentioned
that the applicant
offers as mitigation revegetating all disturbed areas with
native vegetation so
is that going to be within that cloner region and what kind
of vegetation? Well
mainly would be grasses and what we are looking is we
specify native because
they have a better chance to acclimate and get established
faster just keep in
mind that we are close to a creek so any area that get und
isturbed that means that
that soil have a chance to reach to the creek in a rain
event so we're looking
for primarily grasses who keep the soil in place and
protected. Thank you.
Commissioner Rosale. Thank you one more question the the ph
asing chart that I
have here lots 142 and 143 is where they're planning on
putting trees is
lots 142 and 143 going away or are they actually mitigating
in an area that a
house is going to be built? Those are common area lots the
HOA maintenance.
Okay okay thank you. Commissioner Sullivan. Thank you I'm
concerned that how
much water is gonna be coming through that area because
right now anytime it's
a heavy rain Hickory Creek is pretty well closed most of
the time both from River
Pass and off of 1830 and we've got a street that's coming
from Creekdale on
to Hickory Creek and then we have Creekdale coming through
here plus a lot
of houses being built with a lot of concrete is all that
gonna be draining
into that floodplain area that's then gonna flood Hickory
Creek even more or
are there plans to do something with Hickory Creek Road to
make it not flood
as often? Earl would you care to address that one?
Earl Escobar engineering. What the intent with Hickory
Creek Road oops is to
realign it. Currently Hickory Road is within the floodplain
itself and so it
does flood during heavy rain events and so there should be
a CIP project in the
future that realigns it outside the floodplain here in red.
Okay I thought
that's where it was now. No no no it right now it goes
straight. Okay where's
this Hickory Creek? Right. That's the road and that's the
road. Okay somewhere in this area.
Okay I see so that is a change to Hickory Creek. Yes.
Gotcha okay thank you.
I have a couple questions. Do we have a map without the ESA
on it that we can
zoom in on what that area currently is? I know that's been
farmland I think for
many years back and behind the school.
Well maybe I have one aerial here.
Does that work for what you need? I guess as close as we
can get. Can you turn ESA on
that or not? Let me just go ahead and get the interactive
maps I'll pull that up real quick.
I apparently not. Well I was hoping to be able to look and
see what the current
conditions and what it's been because I know and and the
reason I know is my
kids went to school there at that elementary school so Fall
Festival and
all the things that went on and out in that field just to
get an idea of and for
the rest of Commission an idea of what the current
conditions are out there
that that's mostly been just a plowed and farmland for many
years versus I
don't know when the ESA got established on there and then
the second point which
goes back to the map that you had up that does show the ESA
I know we've had
quite a bit of conversation in the past about roads
impacting the essays and
when you look at that map right there Ryan already impacts
it in at least two
or three places Hickory Creek is through it 1830 is through
it we have this all
over town and I know we've had a lot of discussions in the
past that we can't
put any roads or we don't want roads crossing ESA's and
they are all over
already and that's just a fact of mobility and getting
around our city and
so I just want to draw that to attention because we've had
a lot of
conversation the past about it and we see it in this map
that it exists
probably in at least 20 30 places just in this one area
that this happens all
the time and it's not a very oddball thing that comes
before us it's pretty
normal and so those are just my two comments on this
particular one and then
the other one that final comment is on Commissioner Roselle
's point which was
going to be my question about when it's on the mobility and
it has to go in
there why a developer has to come in and mitigate that when
they have to put that
roadway in there's really not a place for them to put Creek
dale in that it's
not going to end up impacting the essay certainly I think
that's a fair point
something we discussed internally but ultimately there's
nothing in the code
that exempts those requirements and so that's what the ESA
plan came into about
what's it take to make it exempt because if they've got to
go expense of
putting it in things like it's kind of somewhat punitive to
then have to
mitigate for a road that's being told you're going to put
it here when this
application came forward it's one of the issues that we
grappled with saying that
there is a right of way that's required based on our
thoroughfare plan slash
mobility plan and we looked we also weighed the the concern
on what do we do
as it relates to mitigation even though we've seen the
scenario in multiple
areas within our city and as a result it is something that
we've pinpointed or
highlighted and are keen to work internally with our teams
our engineering
our environmental team and ourselves to see if there's an
opportunity where do we
revisit the mobility plan or do we then figure out an
alternative solution as it
relates to public right-of-way requirements so where does
that stand
so at this point hopefully we do intend within the next few
months is to get
some working groups together to understand what the
opportunities are
that are available to us again the Commission also has the
opportunity to
make a request if I'm not mistaken to have this evaluated
or reevaluated or
assessed that broad question or this particular broad
question well I'll make
that recommendation that we look at that because I know
this happens in multiple
places and any time that these impacts that's basically on
the not only is the
developer having to put the the utilities or the road or
whatever in but
if it does then impact an ESA then they have to mitigate it
and have the
additional expense based on being said this is where it has
to go and got to
mitigate it also so I don't know if we need a first or a
second or just a
general effect comes on at the very end of the very end is
an item that needs
to be addressed matrix anybody else have any questions on
this item is a great
presentation thank you Mike
I'm going to ask Ron Menguita our long-range planning
administrator to
make the next presentation for z16 0 0 0 7 thank you chair
members of the
Commission this item brought forward to you today is a code
amendment to our
development code regarding a fry overlay district the
request by the
applicant is to amend the overlay district to create a
separate sub area
which is what they're calling sub area C and also provide
additional associated
development standards that would only apply to that
particular sub area as a
way of reference this is the fry Street overlay district it
's possibly 12.8 0
acres or so the youth center which is here and shown in sub
area B was carved
out for a lack of better term in 2010 to allow for that
development to occur they
proposed again a sub area they proposed development
standards again to allow
them to build their development the same similar request is
being asked of this
particular area which is shown in red and this is again sub
area C and the
applicant has proposed certain criteria or design standards
that will allow
their development to occur if this were to move forward and
get approved by City
Council look closer look of the area this is the area
approximately 4.7 acres
I'm sorry 1.75 acres I stand corrected of the area where
currently Vortmans
bookstore is located as well as the subway along Hickory
Street the
applicant is proposing to construct a five-story multi-
level mixed-use
development that will include again the retail Vortmans
bookstore as well as a
restaurant it's my understanding that subway will be occup
ying that space it
may not necessarily be subway but it will be a restaurant
in addition to that
student living apartments above those commercial uses quick
background of the
project in 2015 there was an application that was submitted
z-15 29 that went
through development review committee it was then forwarded
to the planning zoning
Commission for their consider your consideration at that
meeting with the
planning zoning Commission the Commission recommended
denial 6 to 1 of
that request following that planning zoning Commission it
was then scheduled
to go to City Council and after several meetings of postpon
ement of the
applicant requested that the item be withdrawn on April 8th
of 2016 earlier
this year the applicant chose to reapply for another
amendment requests of the
overlay and that occurred on April 8th of 2016 and that new
case number is z-16 7
which is in front of you today for your consideration the
only difference
between the first submittal and the second submittal is
that the applicant
has identified an additional 36 parking spaces which is
located just north of
the subject property north of Oak Street on this on the
north east corner of
Bryan and Oak Street so what does this mixed-use
development comprise of it's
a five-story mixed-use development it has student living
apartments as you
can see here just above the the commercial uses it compr
ises of
approximately 111,000 square feet each bedroom will be le
ased out to
individual students there are a total of 83 dwelling units
nine two bedrooms 14
three bedrooms and 64 bedroom units if you were to multiply
that and add that
all up that that calculates up to 300 bedrooms is what this
proposed
development is going to have the building height of the
development is 62
feet roughly from ground level to the top of the main
building they're also
proposing a parking garage which is going to be wrapped
around except for an
area to the west this area here will be visible it will not
have anything in
front of it so this is again the parking structure and the
height of the parking
commissioner that is 69 feet tall thank you chair I noticed
it said that if this
sub area see is approved that it could be up to six stories
for the garage is
that correct five stories at six stories you're correct for
the garage oh yeah
just for the garage okay so that options there later if
they want to stack on
that is what they're proposing now is my understanding so
five story six story
for the garage for the garage okay thank you so again the
parking garage will
have 217 parking spaces and the height of that garage will
be 69.2 feet and
that's measured right here where the people will be able
students and other
folks will be able to access an elevator
as mentioned earlier retail will be allowed or not allowed
but be part of
this development boardman's as shown here will be located
on the ground floor
along Hickory Street this is Hickory here also subway or a
restaurant will be
part of this development that's approximately 1600 square
feet of
restaurant space in addition there will be five surface
parking which is in just
general area here just to the east of development and then
again mentioned
earlier 36 surface parking to the north of the project
along north of Oak Street
off-site so here are the standards that is being proposed
currently we have two
sub areas we have a sub area a which is everything outside
of sub area B so
anything that was in place with the five Street area is sub
area a and then again
in 2010 with the creation of sub area B they came up with
their own standards
and that's reflected here in this column what the applicant
is proposing is
sub area C and we'll start from left to right maximum
building height sub area
B I'm sorry sub area A is three stories with a maximum
height of 45 feet the
applicant is proposing five stories with the maximum height
of 62.05 feet. Ron
question for you please sir when was sub area A originally
done? I want to say
2000 around the update of the development code okay I know
there was a
small area plan in 99 and I believe that the overlay
district followed soon after
okay and then B was done when? 2010. 2010 okay so we're 15
years down the road and
five years after B and we're getting taller each time
correct okay the parking
garage for sub area A is 45 feet the applicant is proposing
six stories as
Commissioner Beck alluded up to 69.2 feet the the density
as calculated in sub area A. Commissioner Ellis. Thank you
chair. Hi Ron
thanks quick question just so I understand is sub area B
simply that
youth center development? Correct. That is that outline
that I showed earlier is
the youth center development. Is sub area B? Correct. And
there is no sub area C?
There is not. They're trying to create sub area C with this
proposal? That's
correct. Okay thank you thank you. Maximum density for sub
area A is based on
development standards you know meeting parking requirements
the lock coverage
all that and that will dictate what that dwelling per acre
unit count would be.
Sub area proposed sub area C is proposing up to 86 dwelling
units per acre. Again the
the total acreage for that development is 1.75 acres with
roughly a
number of dwelling units associated with that project. Park
ing ratio the parking
ratio for sub area A is one space per bedroom for units
that have two bedrooms
or more so if they have a two-bedroom unit they need to
provide two parking
spaces if they have a three-bedroom unit they would have to
provide three parking
spaces up to four and four units of course would have to
provide four
parking spaces. The applicant is proposing that that ratio
be reduced to
0.76 spaces per bedroom. Commissioner Rossell. Is there a
parking ratio for one
bedrooms there's no one bedrooms allowed? There is one
bedroom in the current
standards and let me see if I can find that for you. It's
one bedroom would be
1.5 space per unit. Okay thank you. One other question on
the parking room is
the parking figured on all of the surface parking so the
five spaces the
36 spaces and then whatever is internal as well? Correct
whatever total they have
that they're providing would be a factor in that
calculation. So even though the
five spaces are more than likely kind of serving the retail
they're including
that in this calculation? Correct and I've got a slide that
explains how that's all broken.
It's hard to get ahead of you. No that's fine. Commissioner
Sullivan. Will the
off-site parking be somewhat restricted? I mean would it be
restricted to
apartment people only? That is. Or will it be open for
anyone like on the surface
the five lots how are they going to regulate that? That is
a question I had
with the applicant and they may want to clarify that during
the public hearing
but my understanding is it's going to be gated and there'll
be only used by the
people that occupy that space or that development. A couple
other things that
they're proposing either increase or decrease. Building
coverage going from 50
to 70 for residential mixed-use building coverage 80 to 81.
Minimum landscape area.
The requirement for the sub area A is 15 percent. They're
proposing a 10.7
percent landscape area and then a rear set backyard would
be a reduction from
10 to 5 feet for sub area C. So this is the parking slide.
Commissioner
Strange regarding what is going to be required for each
type of use. The first
one is what's currently required as part of sub area A.
With retail at four one
space per 400 they're required 27. With the restaurant
again one space per 400
that's five and then the 300 bedrooms would require one
space per bedroom and
obviously that would be 300 so a total 332. With the
proposed changes in the
parking requirement similar they're not proposing to change
anything with
regards to retail or restaurant but they are dropping the
requirement for
bedrooms again two bedrooms or more from 1 to 0.76 space
per bedroom that will
equates to 100 I'm sorry 228. You total that up that's 62 I
'm sorry 260 spaces
and the difference there is 72 spaces from the two
requirements. Does anybody
have any questions on the parking requirements before I
move on to
consideration? I have one other follow-up. Do we know and
this may be need to go
to the applicant are the parking spaces included in their
standard rental
agreement or parking space is going to be an additional
charge? I don't know that.
If not we can wait till public hearing I'll ask that
question. Sounds good.
Thank you. Back to the availability of the parking area so
the retail and
restaurant are going to be able to use the parking garage
just like the
occupants of the apartments. That's correct. So that anyone
basically could go
in park and say I'm gonna go to the bookstore go to the
bookstore and then
have all four classes for four or five hours. That's
something we can ask the
applicant I know another student living apartments
especially that have parking
garages they limit the use of that from just for the first
floor and then maybe
the upper floor parking garage is allowed it's gated so
that it would only
be allowed to the residents but you're correct if it is
available for the
public that could be a possibility but we certainly can ask
and verify that
with the applicant. Okay. So as far as consideration the
development does
encourage you know walking and bicycling it's it's
obviously improving the the
site what it is currently it's also providing extended
building setbacks
from Oak and Hickory so they're setting back the building I
think they were
trying to mimic what the youth center did in Hickory. The
proposed development
would keep some commercial uses which is something that's a
positive thing again
board members would be on Hickory as well as the the
restaurant use would be
adjacent to Hickory Street as well. However the height and
density of the
development it's not compatible with surrounding areas the
height of the
youth center is at 55 it's four stories other developments
in the area are
roughly three stories you know so less than what they're
proposing. Parking
requirements in the Fry overlay overlay street district is
purposely and
purpose and intent is to have parking for residents and so
that was an increase
compared to other areas in the city. It also the purpose of
the
Fry Street overlay district is also to reduce the parking
requirements for
retail and restaurant and it is compared to other parts of
the city. As far as
solid waste there is a requirement that the solid waste
trucks be access the
either the containers themselves or if it's a compactor
without having to have
any assistance by the management. We haven't gone to a
solution or gone a
solution yet the site plan does not reflect a solution and
that's that's
one consideration we need to be mindful of. Ron I'm sorry
to interject would
you just specify what they're proposing in terms of their
rollout carts? Yes it
is my understanding that they're proposing containers and
that they're
going to be stored in the parking garage. The amount I'm
not sure I can I can
verify that I think it's four containers and what they're
proposing is they would
roll those out to the either the driveway or the fire lane
or parking
space and during the hours of when the park of when the
trash trucks would be
servicing that development and then rolling them back in
after they have been
emptied. That is currently what's proposed our solid waste
department has
reviewed that and is still considering other options but
again there's solid
waste requirements have not been met at this point.
Commissioner Bec. Thank you
Chair. Dimensionally how big are these rollout trash
barrels are they for the
whole apartment complex? Correct. Do we know how big they
are? I know they fit in
an integral do you correct me if I'm wrong they're roughly
four by six. I
guess where I'm going with this too would they sit out on
the street easily
without being an obstruction of any kind? The ones that I
've seen of the Frye
Street development one block over has a similar concept
where they have the
apartments themselves have chutes that drop down to the
garage level and into a
rollout dumpster container and they're about two to maybe
two cubic yards at the
most or not too big because you know they're not going to
be able to roll it
out to the compactor that they do have on site to unload
onto that but solid
waste is concerned is that they're not adequate to
withstand abuse that the
dumpster vehicles can can apply on to them. I actually I
noticed at the Frye
Street apartment site this morning was that they have a
little area that's like
we call it the dumpster graveyard where there's a bunch of
rollout containers
that are damaged the wheels are missing they're damaged and
they just
lay it on the side so and that's just you know damage from
rolling it out to
their compactor and unloading it doesn't even account for.
Are they metal or
plastic? They're metal. Okay but again are they and they're
going to be rolled out
to the street for the trucks to pick up? I believe that's
their intent. And you
don't think they're gonna they're too big? The issue that
we have is that if
they do roll it out well that's the primary access to the
parking garage so
there's gonna be a lot of traffic having to weave around
there and you know it's
a coordination nightmare with solid waste because there
could be instances
where there's issues with the dumpster vehicle and they can
't you know service
it at that time well for whatever reason or they're running
behind schedule or
not and then there's also potential damage to the container
themselves and
who's liable to replace them. Is it the city or is it you
know the management company?
Thank you. And Commissioner Beck just to add on to that
again this whole site
plan has been routed through the relevant department such
as solid waste
engineering. Earl has been kind enough to fill that
information in but again the
the resolution to that has to come from the solid waste
department as well so
there are some contingencies that would have to be
evaluated should the site
plan move forward. Just to clarify Commissioner Beck the
proposal is to
roll those containers to the drive aisle that's just east
of the property not on
to Hickory or Oak it's the drive out next to the on the
property. Correct.
Another consideration is the need for a 10-foot clearance
around the entire
building. Right now the building as it is proposed on the
site plan sits five feet
from the property line to the west and that is something
that the fire
department needs is a 10-foot clearance. Now the fire
department has allowed
developments occur five feet but with some sort of
agreement by the property
adjacent stating that they will not build up to that
property so that again
the purpose is to make sure that the fire department has
adequate access to
all sides of the building and that still has not been a
receiver obtained as of
today and that's my understanding. Commissioner Beck. Thank
you Chair. Are
these particular problems inherent with this particular
building its size and
dimensions or would sub area A and B run into similar
problems? I don't think sub
area A I'm sorry sub area B that development had this issue
with with the
the property because it obviously surround and the whole
development is
surrounded by streets. The as far as the solid waste I
think they designed their
development to have adequate access so that was not a
concern or an issue at
that time of that review of that property. So in part these
problems are
inherent with this design? I would say that's a fair
assessment. Thank you. Some
other considerations is that the the continuous amendment
of the Fry Street
overlay district would compromise the compatibility of
adjacent land uses but
also would compromise really the purpose and intent of the
the district itself
I think it was done back in 2000 however you know we we
recognize that there is
change in the market but again the district was established
back then and I
think there's some merits to keeping the purpose and intent
. The proposed amendment
and associate development standards are not consistent with
the Denham plan 2030
in regards to gradual transition the scale and character of
the area. Again
addressing potential impacts adjacent neighborhood such as
parking or shade
issues that may arise from the proposed development. Not
ifications were sent out
to property owners 200 feet and 500 feet from the overlay
district boundary. We
felt that it was important to notify the entire overlay
district because it does
impact them. We sent out 51 notification through certified
and 124 through regular
mail. As of this afternoon we received two in favor and two
in opposition and
you should have copies of the responses in front of you for
consideration. Ron
could I stop you? Will you go back one slide on the where
this is not
consistent with Denham 2030? Yes sir. Do we have any
specifics of where it's not
consistent with 2030? Well the maintaining of the character
of the
area I think there's language in the Denham plan 2030 that
talks about
compatibility of an area and this area is actually
designated as the neighborhood
and university compatibility area and it calls out for
certain guidelines to to
make sure that the area is compatible with the surrounding
areas and I felt
that this was a little bit over what the compatibility
should be for a project
in this area. Okay well let me follow up a little more then
. Area B is in place
prior to 2030 being adopted. Correct. I mean this is it's
not exactly the same
but it's very similar we're talking a few feet height
differences and maybe
some other things on parking percentages so if it's okay in
sub area B and we
have that in place and we do 2030 why is this such a
difference or what is
the main difference between this and B that makes it such a
no longer consistent
with Denham plan 2030? Well that that youth center is just
one development
obviously that was approved and recommended approval for
that
development occur. We also have to look at the other areas
around there. Now the
difference between the two one is four stories this is five
stories you know
the parking that they have there is one to one this is not
so there's some
differences may not be significant but there's enough
significance that warrants
the difference between the two is significant to not meet
the character of
the area. Okay thank you. Yes I'm sorry Commissioner Rosse
au. I think I have
several questions and I hope I get them all straight so
forgive me if I don't
but a couple things part of this proposal includes area
outside the
Fry Street overlay district correct? Does that correct? Yes
to the north. Are we able to
what's the implications of something outside the district
overlay being part
of a sub area of that district overlay? Are we now
including that in the district?
No the the the overlay district itself has built in a
requirement or a
standard that allows for additional parking to be off site
of the project and
it has to be within a thousand feet so it meets that
requirement so any
additional parking could be located outside the subject
area. Okay.
Why was it not included in the notification map? Should
that off-site
parking should the neighbors of that not be told that that
could be parking? Well
they well they're they're kind of but you're again we're
looking at the overlay
we're mending the overlay district and again any
development within the overlay
district if they were required parking spaces and they
needed additional
parking spaces they can get parking spaces again as far as
a thousand feet
from that subject parcel. So if they did move it a thousand
feet away that
surrounding area the 200 feet around that parking spot
would not be notified
within this proposal? Correct. They all we're all we're
trying to do is what's
being proposed that is is an amendment to the overlay
district and what's
required of this area here and again in the overlay
district there is language
that speaks to that additional parking spaces can be from
any property as long
as it's within a thousand feet of that subject project.
Okay I understand
you're saying that it doesn't resonate with me necessarily
that the notification
map doesn't get bumped out a little bit for land being
changed. Right let me try
and address that that's because the overlay district the
Fry Street overlay
district is a zoning category in itself. Okay. The parking
the proposed off-site
parking that is shown or reflected the additional 36 wrong
spaces. 36 yes. That
the one the use is permitted off-site regardless so there's
no issue with that
there is no change to the boundary of that zoning district
of the overlay
district so let's use an example where there wasn't an
overlay district and an
applicant came in to change a zoning on a property and the
zoning was permitted
but they also needed X amount of parking and they located
an off-site if that
off-site parking area was permitted by the existing zoning
district it wouldn't
warrant any type of notification. I got you thank you and
then separately from
this can you go back to the proposed ratio of parking that
they're wanting to
amend to or proposed to. This bottom right bottom row here?
Yes that's 76 so
this is a good slide because on their narrative they
identify two main
components but the city has nine changes and so it seems
like they simplified it
to two main components but the two main components say that
they're wanting to
increase the permitted height to 58 feet which is not what
's up here and it says
they want to reduce their off-site parking or the required
off-street
parking to 0.84% which is not right here so can where's the
discrepancy between these two reports? That and they'll
probably be able to
answer that during the public hearing the the submittal
changed obviously with
with the the addition of the 36 parking spaces and they
happen to upload
probably the same narrative that may be the reason why you
have that
discrepancy but the actual code amendment that they supply
and that we
reviewed is reflected in this slide here and that's what's
being proposed. So they
just submitted the same narrative? That's something maybe
we can clarify but
that's okay that could be the case. Okay thank you.
Commissioner Sullivan back to
the parking it appears that Bryan and Oak Street there's
already a parking lot
there correct is that you understand that is correct that
is so they're just
going to be buying using leasing whatever is that parking
space that's
already there? They've actually yes I've checked the
then Parasol district and the property owner that owns that
sub the sub
property also owns that property. Okay so Mr. Roselle's
point probably why they
didn't need to have the notification is that it's already
parking lot. Does that make sense?
That's part of it yes. But as Manal mentioned you know it's
a
requirement not a requirement but rather an opportunity to
to look at additional
parking it can be as far as a thousand feet. Okay just
wanted to clarify that. Commissioner Ellis.
Thank you chair okay so the additional parking lot is a
parking lot now used
for whom? My understanding it's used by Fortman's bookstore
that's my
understanding we can certainly clarify that with the
applicant. Right because
if we're taking away a parking lot and dedicating it to
this development then
we're taking away parking right we're actually not adding
parking. Right well
yes I mean it's it's it's parking now and it's being used
by Fortman employees
is my understanding and that would then be again part of
the parking lot. It's only
being used by Fortman employees now? That's my
understanding there may be
some other users of that but we can clarify that again with
the applicant
during the public hearing. Okay thank you. So with that
staff's recommending denial of the
subject request for the following reasons again not meeting
the deadline
2030 it compromises the effectiveness of the existing
overlay district
compatibility with the surrounding area there are certain
things in their
proposed code amendment that is not consistent with their
site plan and
those are something that we need to address of course solid
waste approval
is still pending and the boundary agreement with the
property owner to the
West has not yet been obtained and for those reasons staff
is recommending
denial of this proposed amendment. Commissioner Rossell. I
think this will be my last one I
appreciate this is more work session so yes this is more
this is more
information about the process of what happens behind the
scenes before it gets
here you've had a conversation with the applicant that you
are going to
recommend denial they knew that coming in can you talk
about what happens to
get this point where I don't make any assumptions but it
sounds like you sit
down with them you outline your issues and they make the
decision to go forward
or keep talking about that yes so we've met with the
applicant either face to
face or over the phone and have several discussions with
them we were just not
able to address everything and you know they chose to move
forward with the
application we we really wanted to you know get it to where
we can recommend
approval but we were just not able to they chose to move
forward with the
application as is okay thank you I'll follow up on that I
know sometimes these
things are timing issues if this was to move forward from P
&Z this these issues
are still going to then be addressed by City Council and if
solid waste is
enabled to address them the boundary agreement is enabled
to be obtained it
doesn't really matter so what may be going on is they're
aware of the issues
and they are just in the process of still trying to get
those ironed out and
trying to keep their project on a whatever timeline self-
imposed or not
right but until these things get addressed City Council
more than likely
will not move this forward is essentially where we are at
this
particular point in time as I recall when this came before
us before there
were a lot more issues than this that were outstanding at
that time I think
there were issues with the fire lane and ladder trucks not
being able to get in
there were some other issues I think the height was still
roughly about it was
yeah just to recap real quick for the commissioners that
weren't at the prior
meeting the TIA traffic impact analysis was something that
staff requested since
then they've submitted it's been reviewed and accepted by
engineering
department the fire lane separation distance that also was
an item that was
not addressed at the time of January 27th however that has
been addressed now
and they have the appropriate distance for their fire lane
to be placed where
it is so you're correct Chair strange we we've addressed
some but we have not
addressed all were there a follow-up what were some of the
other issues seem
like there was a pretty good list and I think I think it
was the it was the
parking the main thing and I know traffic was the big
question now is a
big discussion during the public hearing but because we
didn't have a TIA we were
not able to address those certain concerns but we do have
that now and
obviously that's something that some answers to we can
certainly discuss it
but they do have a TIA traffic impact analysis that has
been accepted by a
city engineers do you remember what the parking was before
the first time it
came it seemed like it was even lower than this well I
think it was it was it
was 0.7 maybe it was just slightly lower by by by adding
the 36 it bumped it up a
little bit more all right okay great thank you
Commissioner Ellis I'm sorry thank you chair okay last one
I think okay so just
for some background this was denied last time by a
different Commission so I'm
trying to get some history here what is different with this
proposal today than
the last time that you all saw it essentially it's the
additional 36
parking spaces which is the parking lot the parking lot we
don't know what it's
currently used for that we're gonna clarify that's the
biggest yes yes okay
okay thank you I will follow up I was on the Commission at
that time and I voted
against it at that time because the TIA wasn't done the
issues with the fire
lane weren't even addressed yet and it got to be kind of
that snowball of there
are so many issues that are outstanding it kind of for me
broke the place of hey
there's a couple that probably are reasonably done these
are some biggies
and I wasn't comfortable in voting for it at that time
because those were some
big issues that I felt like should have been addressed
before it got to our
Commission so that's why I voted against it at that time I
don't know if I guess
Devin would have been here to have been nobody else is
gonna be able to chime in
here but Devin so okay great that's why I voted against it
just to provide some
clarification on the fire lane issue they are still
researching the ability to
secure an additional five feet from the adjacent property
correct not not for
the fire lane but for access and that's still under review
by them to by the
applicant to ascertain if they either secure it and provide
us copy so that we
are sure that that site plan the way it's currently
designed meets the fire
department's requirements Commissioner Alice work session
thank you chair there
was discussion I believe I remember hearing about the
building itself
Bortman's and and it being historical in some nature was
that ever addressed I
don't with anybody I don't recall that discussion with this
Commission okay I
might be making that up or it was just being talked about
out and out in public
maybe because I think it's a it's a Mount Miller build isn
't it it's not okay
we don't know we'll try and get you some info if we can
prior to but otherwise it
would have to follow the meeting correct
all right that's it that concludes my presentation okay any
other questions for
Ron thank you very good presentation and lots of
information and lots of
questions thank you I know we have one other item for our
work session it's
going to be to continue on notifications I think at this
time just in essence of
time that we can have as much as we need on notifications I
'm gonna call a
recess and let's go ahead and get food at 533 and then we
'll reconvene here and
here our next item which will be the notifications good
evening and welcome
back to our work session I'll call it back to order at 540
and I think our
next item is going to be to receive a report and hold
discussion on our
current notification practices and that's gonna be Cindy
Jackson and Ron
Magida thank you Commissioners as you'll recall at our last
meeting we held a
discussion regarding the proposed notification hearing
changes and the
Commission had a lot of questions and a lot of good
suggestions this is a
follow-up to that meeting to talk about the feedback that
we received just to
cut to recap currently City of Denton follows the
procedures of the ordinance
which was repealed in 2002 which require public notice of
the
scheduled public hearing in the official newspaper a legal
notice sent to
property owners within 200 feet of the site sent via
certified mail courtesy
notice of the public hearing sent to residents living
within 500 feet of the
subject site and a post notice in the form of a sign posted
by the city on the
subject property the proposed revisions that we talked
about were to mail out
public hearing notices to property owners within 200 feet
of the property
via regular mail instead of certified mail mail out
courtesy notices within
500 feet to residents within the 500 foot radius of the
site via postcard and
to track public notices and courtesy notices that are
returned to the city in
addition we were going to enlarge the sign that we post on
the site from 2
feet by 3 feet to 4 by 4 feet we are also going to require
the applicant to
purchase post maintain and remove the notification signs
from the site and we
are going to create a link on the planning division web
page dedicated for
public hearing notices questions any thank you go back to
me Commissioner
back okay so that I'm clear here the 200 foot notice and
the 500 foot notice both
of those could go to one individual the owner and the 10th
as well yes okay
because the object here is to make sure who's ever living
in that house gets a
notice on but that you couldn't duplicate it which would be
okay that
is correct if the property owner lives on the property they
'll get you know
okay good deal thank you
Commissioner Sullivan since it seems like other cities do
things different
and you said this was a legal issue I mean what are the
minimums and the
maximums and I guess I'm trying to decide where it says Fr
isco they send out
mail notices regular mail yes courtesy notices no do they
go by different law
is it their law or and this is our law or is there some
overriding state law
there is an overriding state law that actually dictates the
public hearing
notification process and that requires the 200 foot notice
sent via regular
mail and a legal notice put published in the newspaper
signs are not included
and courtesy notices aren't included each city then decides
if they want to
go beyond what's required so the 500 feet isn't required it
's just something
that the city of Denton does the city of Plano does that
and the city of Fort
Worth does that right right I would just want to if we were
following some legal
issue how come now other ones aren't following the same we
're going above
and beyond what's required gotcha that's all I needed okay
okay now we received
some some good feedback from the planning and zoning
Commission both at
the meeting and via email subsequent to the meeting I'm
going to go through these
one by one the next few slides will cover these suggestions
the first one is
to provide a self-addressed stamped envelope with the 20
for 200 foot mailing
notice now it's possible to send a envelope a return
envelope right now via
our mail service however we cannot have it stamped if that
's not possible right
now the the city's mailing service click to net to mail has
it has indicated
they are working on that they hope to provide that service
in the future
however we don't have that available right now the create a
link on the city
of Denton home page to the planning division web page
dedicated to public
hearing notices now we've been working with the public
communications office
and they have indicated to us that they are in the process
of redesigning the
city's website they have told us that the city's website
the home page of the
city's website will only be utilized for announcements
there's going to be no
links on it to to link to other pages at this time from my
understanding so what
they suggested that we place the link to the notices on the
planning divisions
home page instead and that would link directly to the
public hearing page we're
going to keep working with with the public communications
office or PCO
office however to to see what we can do about increasing
the visibility of that
that site commissioner Ellis thank you chair question
regarding though the new
website are you I noticed the agenda for the committee on
citizen engagement came
up in the website is on that are you attending that meeting
I actually I was
not aware of that meeting but now that I'm aware of it I
will I will make the
point to attend that thank you I'll look into that thank
you
another suggestion was to include City Council notice on on
the same web page
as the planning and zoning Commission public hearings and
that's not that's no
problem we can easily put them both on to all active
notices for PNC and City
Council onto a public notice page
another one was to start an email notification list by
neighborhood for
residents to sign up for notifications of activity in their
neighborhood we
looked at this and determined that the creation and
maintenance of this kind of
proposed list it would take up a great deal of staff time
and wouldn't be
possible because of that additional time would also be
needed to generate an
email for each individual request received by the city
development
request the proposal to create a public notice page on our
on the planning
department's website is actually a more efficient way to
have all of the notices
in one place easily visible and interested citizens can
just click on
that and see if there's anything happening in their
neighborhood that way
utilize electronic text alerts well we have been working
with PCO or public
communications office on this too and currently the city
does not have this
this kind of technology available we have asked them to
research it and we
will consider continue to discuss this with the PCO and see
what we need to do
in order to develop this feature commissioner back thank
you chair this
would relate to the sign on the property
number that's correct okay thanks the use of postcards for
both the 200 and
500 foot mailing using the template from the mail service I
would prepared a
mock-up of the 200 foot notice as a postcard and the letter
notice cost the
city 242 to mail out and the postcard with a perforated
reply card would cost
227 which be a savings of approximately 15 cents here you
can see a standard
notification letter for comparison
and here you can see how it would look before we put it
together this is why I
made a mock-up looking like this it doesn't really it's not
too impressive
and this is a standard courtesy notice that we mail to
residents within 500
feet of the subject site we actually received a courtesy
notice from the city
of Fort Worth so we were using that as an example of a post
card
notification and then here's our standard courtesy notice
notification so you can see the differences
again the letter notice cost the city 242 to mail out and
the postcard
I'm sorry I don't have that let me look that up standard
postcard is 227 as well
okay based on the comments at the last meeting regarding
how we would track the
posting of the signs and who would be responsible for
paying for the signs I
went ahead and and I contacted the cities that I had
researched previously to find
out how they did that and Fort Worth of course they have
and didn't we we
actually have put out the signs ourselves we don't have the
applicants
put out the signs Frisco requires his date stamped
photograph be submitted and
it can be submitted via either email or fax or it can be
brought in by the
applicant individually the signs are all purchased by the
applicant Lewisville
excuse me requires a date stamp photograph submitted
actually all of
them requires date stamp photograph submitted either via
email via via fax
via in person bringing it in as well as the sign affidavit
really the only
difference would be Plano Plano requires the applicant to
actually post the sign
28 days before the public hearing so the applicant
purchases the sign and posts
it and then brings in the affidavit and the photograph with
their their zoning
application so it's actually posted before they've even
submitted their
application typically with regards to who posted signs the
applicant will have a
choice of either having the sign made and posting it
themselves or having the
sign company post the sign that sign company will offer
that service of
installing the sign as well these are some examples of sign
specification
sheets from other cities the city of Denton of course we
will prepare the
same type of specifications sheet once we've determined the
new sign design
and the size it will be included along with a list of sign
contractors that
they can't the applicant can go to to have the sign
actually manufactured I
put these two on to point out to you that if you look right
here it actually
these two actually require a double-sided sign and they
post the sign
perpendicular to the street that makes it easier for people
who are driving by
to see the sign rather than having the sign parallel to the
street some of the
cities I saw actually did not require this being posted
perpendicular they
just wanted it visible from the street that was their
criteria well that
concludes my presentation we will be moving this forward to
City Council in
the near future and I'll answer any questions you have
Commissioner back
that postcard for the 200 foot notice did it have postage
on it it would it
would okay so that's not a problem with the postcard that
that that the top part
of that would be the reply and it would be a postage page
page the business
reply postcard but we have problems putting a self-add
ressed stamped envelope
in notices well because of the fact that the mail service
that we use they don't
provide that service right now okay they hope to in the
future and they're
working on it but it's not provided right now okay the
signs right now the
city of Denton is putting the signs up this we are okay do
we have any idea what
developers cost what kind of costs they will incur at this
time we have not gone
to the point of actually calling sign companies in the city
to find out how
much they would cost we're first going to need to develop
the specs for the
sign exactly and to get a good idea of what they would cost
okay thank you
Commissioner Hatchbeth thank you chair yeah no I'm
perfectly fine more than
fine just me I don't know if we need to kick it around but
there's no need to
ever add a self-addressed stamp the just the losses on a
stamp that would never
be used are monumental I mean it just I mean not to say
that someone wouldn't
get used not to say that someone wouldn't appreciate the
the the effort
right but the bad outweighs the good in that so I'm I'm I'm
happy with and I
think you'll see an increase in response with the postcard
just because you see
what it is you don't you know you you kind of it
automatically engages you
versus I see it's from the city and I just toss it or you
know that that sort
of thing so I think it'll immediately at least get some
extra attention this way
so that's our hope very well done thank you thank you
Commissioner Sullivan the regarding the postage on the on
the postcard this is
only paid if they send it back that's correct and I'm
assuming that'd be the
same thing with the envelope that would only be paid if
that yes what they're
developing is the same kind of system where it would be
business reply post its
page only if they respond and send it back well having gone
to a public
meeting today out at the the ranch there was a lot of talk
about the the notices
and I think most people were very upset over having go to
the post office to get
their certified mail only to find out that they still didn
't know what was
going on so I think the postcards if we can eliminate the
certified mail and
just do everything postcard I think that would be a great
help for people just to
at least get the notice my other question is is there a
time limit where
information is available to see what's going on because
that's you know that's
really that was my frustration when I got my notice is that
I couldn't go to
the website to see exactly what was going on right and so
you know having it
available after Friday 5 o'clock for the meeting Wednesday
really is not much
time for a person to find out more about sure this hearing
is all about what one
option would be what most people do is they call the city
if they get a nose
they call the city if they don't understand what what is in
their letter
they just call the city and talk to the project manager and
the project managers
more than happy to tell them what the request is wouldn't
be more efficient
though to put all that on the website earlier than the
Friday after five o'clock
before the meeting well typically that that is when the the
staff reports are
ready they're not ready before that time it could be if
somebody said now shout
and I'm just wondering you know is there other than that's
just the way it's
always been done but because people I think want more
information than just
what you know what they get in this obviously you can't go
into much detail
and so I'm just curious to give people more time to look at
what it is that's
being proposed just curious thank you
Commissioner Roselle sorry got you a couple questions I
think maybe to be
helpful for me to better understand the purpose of the
notification at a high
level is it to notify the public or is it to get a response
of how they feel
about the change there is a we do want them to respond yay
or nay that is an
intense of the notice actually they and and according to
the the state law the
response has to be in writing so that it can be calculated
so that is why we
provide a return notification for them to fill out and send
back to a stating
yes I'm for it yes I'm no I'm not for it and why sure legal
purpose for that is
because if 20% or more of Jack that it requires super enjoy
perfect that's
helpful so I have a couple more questions the legal notice
that has to be
sent to the 200 obviously it's legally demanded or required
of us within that
requirement it does not say it has to be certified it just
says that we notice
there's not any further it actually says via regular mail
dropped in a post off
in the post the mailbox okay that's the minimum requirement
there okay perfect
other thing that Fort Worth postcard has a cue card reader
on the front do you
know where that goes to no I don't I tried to scan it and
it didn't nothing
came up so great that makes perfect I was curious if there
's like a website
that that actually scans to it's that's actually not a bad
idea that they're
putting on there third along with information gathering
Facebook's free
and we talked about the last time but they didn't come up
here why there's not
a dent in planning and zoning Facebook and when we post on
the website you
know that automatically pushed to Facebook or that person
logs in and puts
a notice on Facebook people can subscribe to see it on the
timeline they
could prioritize it on the timeline they would actually
have the empowerment
apart from neighborhood newsletters or anything like that
which is a time for
the staff and a cost it seems like Facebook is a low-h
anging fruit in terms
of notifications there are some Facebook groups out there
that that do very well
and I know one particular Commissioner on this Commission
tries to push that
information out there but there could be a centralized
planning zoning page that
people could like and so I'm in favor of of the effort that
that might take to
start lastly and I brought this up last time not me last
time but the first time
this came up in terms of postcard verse letters I find post
cards to be super
convenient I think a lot of us do however I have intimate
knowledge my
brother owns a company that sends out tens of thousands of
mailers across the
state of Texas throughout the year and he's done a be
testing on postcard
responses verse letter responses and there is such a
massive significant
difference on the number of responses he gets from sending
a letter out verse a
postcard and so if the intent is to get a response and if I
could look into his
data and bring it to y'all it the response comes from a
letter there's a
there's a buy-in to opening or taking off the little
sticker that encloses it
there's there's some sort of perceived okay I'm committed
to figuring out what
this is and once they're in there it seems like there's a
mental process to
continue that step where postcard is flip it over throw it
away and so as
much as a postcard is convenient it allows for that
business reply which is
is great I'm still hesitant if the intent as stated is to
get a response is
if there's if there's been research to know what would
better get as a response
and I'm not sure if the staff's looked into that there has
to be without with
the number of mailers that go out politically or otherwise
there's got to
be research out there for conversion rates from letters to
postcards and so
I'd be interested in seeing that to make a the best
intellectual decisions about
what would be more effective in getting their response
because I agree I want
the response day or nades it's helpful for our discussions
and if a postcard is
not the best way of doing that that I wouldn't be in favor
of it if we know
that it's not gonna yield good responses. Sure, thank you.
Commissioner Beck. Thank
you chair. Chicken or egg question here. What is the
individual out there in the
community see first the sign or the notice? That's really
hard to say we get
calls on all of them. Well I guess what's the intent do we
try and get the sign up
before they get their notices? They get they usually get
posted around the same
the sign gets posted a few days after the notice goes out
so that they're
received hopefully at the same time the sign goes out. Well
I'm wondering
if it wouldn't in part answer our address Commissioner Rose
ll's concern
about if the sign went up early enough then the homeowners
would be in
anticipation of some kind of mailing from the city and
would be less inclined to throw it away.
Sure. Okay. Commissioner Ellis. Thank you chair.
Commissioner Rosell I just wanted
to ask you if what kind of what was the data that your
brother had I mean what
kind of mailers was it marketing or? Yeah I mean solicited
marketing mailers
and he's done closed envelope with a loose leaf inside he's
done brochures
double tabbed where the address is printed right on the
actual collateral
and he's also done postcards and measured conversion rates
from that
solicited material. So I guess my my question is we're
trying to get things
noticed so I'm wondering to me a postcard is more
noticeable in the mail
especially with that Fort Worth one where it's kind of
printed on that so I
don't know you know I don't know how that data interprets
to a public notice.
I don't know either I think a postcard is definitely easier
to be noticed I
think more eyes would see that but if part of the intent is
to actually get a
response from what I've learned and read postcards aren't
the best avenue to get
a response so that's why I was asking the question about
notice versus response.
A postcard is very easy to throw away. Yeah I suppose that
's true.
Commissioner Sullivan. I'm curious about the main issue
being getting a
response. Yes. Because what we currently get what I got
there's nothing to
respond to. What you had was a courtesy notice. If you look
at what we've got
what I handed out there is you got a courtesy notice and
you got the
regular 200 foot required notice. The 200 foot required
notice does have a
response sheet on it. Okay but if we don't know what it's
about how are
people going to respond? I get back to the same thing. That
's when they call the city.
The information and not just the notice but the real
information. Yeah. Even with
something like this where you have a map that you really
can't read. Mm-hmm.
Spend more less time on a map and more time on verbiage.
Right and see and you
with the postcards we don't have room for a map so it's all
verbiage. Well I did
notice on the Fort Worth they said the side in request 15
800 block of double
eagle boulevard variants to model home within 300 feet of
occupied residents.
Mm-hmm. I've got an idea what that's about. Right. But we
don't even have that
kind of a description. It can be something real specific
and very short just to let
people know what's going on so they know whether or not to
be concerned. Right and we try
to be as specific as we can. It's just sometimes people
just don't understand
what we're trying to say. I understand. Okay thank you. I
may have missed this in the
presentation. Are we taking a step back from the certified
mailers to just
regular mail now? Is that correct? Yes. That's what our
proposal is. The
certified if I remember I were six something dollars a
piece. You were five
seventy-seven. Okay so I'm on six and we're gonna be down
around 242.
Yeah. Any other questions? Thank you.
Okay that's our last item on our work session. So at this
time unless we have
any other questions or any other housekeeping I'm going to
close our work
session at 6 0 7 and we'll reconvene in council chambers at
6 30. Thank you.
Good evening and welcome to the City of Denton Planning and
Zoning Commission
meeting for October the 26th. This meeting has been duly
posted and we do
have a quorum present and I will call our meeting to order
at 6 32. Our first
order of business will be to stand and give the pledge to
the US and the Texas
flag.
[Pledge of Allegiance]
The next item on our agenda this evening will be to
consider our minutes of a
meeting for October the 12th. The chair will entertain a
motion.
Commissioner Rizel. I move to accept the minutes.
Commissioner Beck. Okay. The first
and a second any discussion? Seeing none we'll call for a
vote on the board.
Motion carries 6 to 0. Next item on our agenda will be our
consent agenda.
Commissioner Beck. I move we approve consent. Okay.
Commissioner Hudspeth.
Second. Okay. We have a first and a second for approval.
Any discussion? Seeing
none we'll call for a vote on the board. That motion
carries 6 to 0. That will
take us to our public hearing section this evening. As a
point of order
because of the number of cards that we have this evening we
are going to make
or the chair is going to make a change in order and we're
going to hear item B
first. That is going to be so I'm going to open the public
hearing for item B
which will be AESA 16-0002 and I will call on Mike Bell for
that presentation.
Thank you chair, members of the Commission. This request is
for an
alternative environmentally sensitive area plan for the
Ryan Meadows edition
phase 2. In a nutshell there is a roadway Creekdale Drive
that is on the city of
Denton mobility plan that the developers is required to
construct and that roadway
cuts across some environmentally sensitive areas about a
little less than
half an acre. There is no exemption for our mobility plan
roadways from our ESA
regulations therefore that's why this plan is required.
They are proposing some
mitigation to plan additional 25 trees just outside the
boundaries of the ESA
to mitigate for for that disturbance. Staff does recommend
approval with
conditions 1 through 3 that the limit that the disturbance
shall not exceed
0.45 acres and shall be consistent with the alternative ESA
plan. That 25 trees
shall be planted 3 inch diameters at planting and then all
areas disturbed
shall be re-vegetated using native plants. With that I'll
be happy to answer
any questions.
Any questions for staff? Thank you Mike. I have one card on
this item Thomas
Fletcher speaking in support. Good evening my name is
Thomas Fletcher 5750
Genesis Court Frisco Texas 75034. I'm the engineer for the
applicant and
really just here to answer any questions if there are any.
As Mike has pointed out
the the request is for the construction of Creekdale Drive
which is on the
mobility plan. As part of that we've gone through and done
engineering plans to
look at the disturbances in order to calculate that.
Because there's
undeveloped floodplain we've also gone through the drainage
analysis.
We've done a flood study on the project. We've also done a
clomer conditional
letter of map revision that has also been approved by FEMA.
So just give you
some additional background and would be glad to answer any
questions on behalf of
the owner. I've got a question for you. You may or may not
have been in our work
session there was a little discussion about some of the ESA
requirements
because this road is required at part of mobility plan.
Just for my own purposes
as we look at this a little bit deeper in some future work
sessions can you
give me an idea how much time and cost y'all have spent
dealing with this
particular issue and what the 25 trees and the native
planting and all those
things just a ballpark. So the the 25 trees you're probably
looking at with a
three-inch tree probably five to six hundred dollars a
piece installed so
you're looking at probably twelve to fifteen thousand
dollars for the trees.
As part of the city's requirement we have to go through and
do an ESA
assessment assessment anyway. So whether we had to come
before you with a with an
alternate ESA plan or not we we had to go through that
process. Through the
process of making the submittal and so forth I think we've
been working with the
city city staff for probably the last three months just
kind of going through
going through the assessment kind of looking at the impacts
and how the
impacts affect the ESA with the road the design of the road
how it impacts or how
it interacts with the clomer and showing that it meets the
clomer but as far as
the impacts to the development really the only additional
impacts because
since the road is a requirement everything associated with
the
construction of the road is already required by the city so
really looking
at maybe an additional fifteen thousand dollars for the
additional plantings in
the open space. Plus the time. Plus the time correct. How
much is the engineering
time approximately for the alternate ESA if you didn't have
to deal with that
issue? For the alternate ESA I would say that are you
asking as far as hours or
fees or dollars? Dollars I mean I would say it's under a
ten thousand dollar fee
expense. So somewhere twenty twenty five thousand dollars
for this particular
issue on this project. That's correct. Great that's correct
. Thank you. Any other
questions for the applicant? Thank you. Appreciate it.
Again this is a public
hearing so anyone who would like to speak on this item
please come forward
at this time and give your name and address. Seeing none we
will close the
public hearing on this item and open the floor for
discussion or a motion.
Commissioner Hudspeth. I move approval with the three
bullets that staff
identified as requirements. Okay. Commissioner Beck. I
second. Okay. We have a
first and second for approval with the three conditions
that are in our backup
as part of this project. Any other discussion or comments?
Seeing none I'll
call for a vote on the board.
Motion carries six to zero. We will now hear item A. So I'm
going to open the
public hearing to Z16-0007 and we'll call on Ron Magida to
make this
presentation.
Thank you chair, members of the Commission, members of
staff. This item
brought forward to you today is a consideration for a code
amendment to
the Fry Street overlay district which is in sub chapter 357
of the Denton
Development Code. The request brought forward is to amend
the overlay district
to create a new sub area which is sub area C and associated
development
standards that go along with just that sub area. For
reference this is the
entire Fry Street overlay district outlined here in orange.
As you recall or
as you are familiar with the sub area B is an area that was
carved out in 2010 to
allow for the development of a student housing or student
living apartment the
youth center and associated commercial uses and again this
was approved in 2010.
The area here in red identifies the area that the current
proposal to amend the
Fry Street overlay district again sub area C and this is
the subject area
where this particular project will go if the code amendment
was to be approved. A
little closer look of what the area looks like currently
there's an
existing bookstore, Wortmans bookstore is located in this
area as well as a
subway restaurant and parking. The applicant is proposing
to construct a
multi-level mixed-use development five stories to be exact.
The area use or the
illustration you see here shows landscaping along both Oak
and Hickory
and associated parking spaces with this project. By way of
background for those
commissioners that work here on January 27th of this year
the Planning Zoning
Commission considered this similar project it was a prior
project Z1529
for this project. The Planning Zoning Commission at that
time recommended
denial of this request to amend the code 621. It then was
forwarded to City
Council for their consideration following that meeting. It
was put on the
agenda several times and at one point the applicant withd
rew the application
and so that application was withdrawn. On April 8th of this
year the
applicant resubmitted a new application which is Z167 which
is what we're
considering tonight. The difference between the previous
application and the
current application is an additional 36 additional parking
spaces which you see
shown here just north of the subject property. The subject
development the
five-story mixed-use development comprises of the following
. It mainly
comprises of a student living apartment which is
approximately 111,000
square feet. The rooms will be leased out individually to
students. The
development comprises of 83 dwelling units, 9 two bedrooms,
14 three bedrooms,
and 64 bedroom units. If you were to multiply that and add
that all together
that comes up to 300 bedrooms in total. The building height
as proposed will be
approximately 62.05 feet. The development also has a
parking garage
that is proposed that will be completely wrapped except for
an area to the west
which will still be able to see the parking garage. The
parking
garage has 217 spaces and the height of that parking garage
is approximately
69.2 feet. In addition to the student living apartment it
will also include
some commercial uses a retail development of approximately
10,766
square feet which will be the Vortman bookstore location.
In addition there is
a restaurant proposed of approximately 1,600. Currently Sub
way is the proposed
user however that's not been confirmed. There is also
parking on site five
parking spaces to be exact and that's just going to be just
east of the
property and again as mentioned earlier there will be an
additional 36 parking
spaces which is off-site and that's across Oak Street. The
table that you see
here is a summary of what is required in each of the zoning
I'm sorry each of the
sub areas sub area A as I'm sorry Mr. Benguita if we could
just pause for a
moment I think that we had a member here who was going to
recuse himself on this
matter due to a conflict so he'll be leaving the room while
we discuss this
and then we'll invite him back in after this item is over.
Thank you. This chart
here illustrates the requirements per the sub areas sub
area A as illustrated
earlier is everything that is not sub area B which was
created again in 2002
I'm sorry 2010. So I'm going to go through these through
these requirements
one by one. The first one is the maximum building height in
the current sub area
where this property is located the maximum height is three
stories 45 feet
they are proposing a maximum height of five stories 62.05
feet. The parking
garage in sub area A is 45 feet they are proposing a six-
story 69.2 feet tall
parking garage. Maximum density for sub area A is based on
the development
standards parking lot coverage all that that will dictate
the amount of dwelling
units per acre. The applicant is proposing that there be a
set amount up
to 86 dwelling units per acre for the proposed sub area C.
Parking ratio for
two bedrooms or more in sub area A it's one space per
bedroom in
proposed sub area C the applicant is proposing 0.76 parking
space per bedroom.
A couple other standards that are different from sub area A
building
coverage an increase up to 20% from 50 to 70 building
coverage for mixed use a
1% increase. Minimal landscape area they're requesting that
that be
decreased from 15% to 10.7 and a rear yard setback a
decrease from 10 foot to
5 foot of setback. For the benefit of the public the
subject parking requirements
as it's currently required under sub area A would require
that the property
provide 332 parking spaces that's with one space per
bedroom for the units that
have two bedrooms or more as opposed to what's currently
being proposed which
they're reducing that parking requirement or parking ratio
down to 0.76
that equates to approximately 228 parking spaces and if
they were to be
approved under the current proposal they would only be
required to provide 260
spaces a difference of 72 spaces. For your consideration
the following
development does encourage walk walking as well as biking
it also provides
extended building setbacks from Oak and Hickory as well as
it does provide
commercial uses along Hickory in the form of the retail V
ortman bookstore as
well as the restaurant which in this current state is Sub
way. Also other
consideration to consider is that the height and density
the development is not
compatible with surrounding area there are other buildings
in the area that are
much less. The Friday Street overlay district was put in
place and when it was
put in place there was an intent to relax I'm sorry to
provide adequate
parking for residents in fact the parking requirements for
two units or
more in this overlay district is much higher than any parts
of the others other
parts of the city it also relaxes parking for the retail
and residential
uses the requirements for the overlay district is less here
than it is for
other parts of the city. Other consideration the solid
waste requirement
that is required by our solid waste department is still
being discussed and a
resolution has not yet been reached. An approved agreement
has not been received
from the applicant this agreement is to ensure that there
is a 10-foot clearance
around the entire building as it is currently proposed on
the site plan they
are five feet from the property line on the west they can
propose that as long
as there's an agreement with the property owner adjacent to
the site if
they were to get that agreement then our fire department
would accept that but
again we would have to have an agreement in order to
confirm that. The continuous
amendment to the Fry Street overlay district compromises
the compatibility
of the uses around the area and also really compromises the
purpose and
intent of the district as it was first proposed or first
adopted. Lastly the
proposed amendment and associate development standards is
not consistent
with the dam plan 2030 in regards to scale character and as
well as the
potential impact to adjacent neighborhoods. Notifications
were sent out
to property owners within 200 and 500 foot there were 51
male certified
males that were sent out and 124 regular male within
properties within 500. We've
received four responses two in favor and in tune opposition
. With that staff is
recommending denial of the subject requests for the
following reason the
proposed development or proposed code amendment is not
consistent with the
dam plan 2030 it compromises the effectiveness of the
overlay district
it's not compatible with the surrounding area and the
development standards are
inconsistent with the proposed site plan. I just want to
state that we've been
working with the applicant for several months now trying to
get a product or a
code amendment that is acceptable by staff we've been
working on it for
several times we were just not able to get there and the
applicant chose to move
forward with the application as is and that's why you're
hearing it today. A
couple other reasons again our solid waste requirement has
not been met and a
pending solution is still being worked out as well as the
boundary adjustment
which I described earlier has not yet been obtained and
that's something that
we look forward to getting soon. With that that concludes
my presentation I
will be happy to answer any question that the Commission
may have. A couple
questions Commissioner Roselle. Thank you chair appreciate
the presentation I have
a couple questions you mentioned that the parking
requirements for the Frye
Street overlay district are less than other parts of the
city what is the
general parking requirement ratio for two-bedroom or more
apartments in the
city? Let me clarify that for the residential it's actually
more than
other parts of the city where it is less it's in the
commercial uses the retail
and the restaurant so for example a two-bedroom we'll go
back to residential
a two-bedroom unit would require 1.75 spaces where in this
is this area is
it's one space per bedroom. So it's already been lowered a
little bit almost
by half for this overlay already for residential? It's
actually I'm sorry if I
didn't clarify that it actually increased because the 1.75
is per unit
I didn't clarify that so a two-bedroom would be required 1.
75 parking spaces
outside the overlay but because this is in the overlay a
two-bedroom unit would
require two parking spaces so it's higher in the overlay
district for the
residential component. Perfect I appreciate the
clarification and then on
your slide that was actually providing background there is
a image and it was
entitled UNT student housing at the bottom is that an
official designation
that they have to get approved by UNT to be a student
housing king? I'm not sure if
that is intended I think that was just for either purpose
of putting together
the rendering I don't think that's something that they have
obtained
through the University but we can certainly ask the
applicant if that's
the case. Perfect thank you. Commissioner Beck. Thank you
chair.
Thanks for your presentation. There were about four items I
think you mentioned
they're still not resolved with this there was a list of
things back in
January we dealt with that hadn't been resolved then so for
the benefit of our
audience could you convey what EDR has addressed? Sure back
in January of this
year one of the things that wasn't addressed at the time
was the submittal
and review of a traffic impact analysis a TIA that has
since been submitted and
reviewed and accepted by our engineering department. The
other item that we
discussed at the January 27th meeting was the fire lane
separation from the
building the applicant was able to address that and they do
now meet the
requirements of the fire department. Thank you. Any other
questions for staff?
Thank you Ron. Got quite a few cards wishing to speak I'm
gonna start with
I'm gonna start with the applicant I have actually two
cards I don't know who
would like to go first. Thank you very much Mr. Chair
ladies and gentlemen my
name is Rob Baldwin I was at 3904 Elm Street Suite B here
in Dallas and I'm
I'm representing EDR in this in processing this application
. Thank you
very much for your time I know some of you it's deja vu
again because you saw
us here in January. There is we were back in the process
because we secured more
parking and then when we resubmitted we thought that we
tried to take an avenue
of reducing parking administratively through to the
planning department which
did not work out so we our application is about the same as
it was but with
additional parking the the heights are actually the same as
they were when you
saw in January the difference was we were in our initial
submittal we were
to talk about average grade for measuring our heights as
the city code
requires but when working through Ron Ron wanted us to add
the maximum height
that it would be from existing grade rather than average
grade so that's why
it looks like we've increased the height but we really
haven't. The two items that
are really outstanding that the last two items one the the
part of solid waste I
do a lot of zoning for apartments and a lot of most of the
apartments that I do
right now they do have the system where the garbage is
wheeled out during
collection days and wheeled back in that way they don't
have a dumpster area
which attracts rodents and and smells and everything and it
works really fine
and it works well and I'm confident we can work something
out with the city but
until we get the issue with the zoning solved we didn't
want to spend a whole
lot of time and aggravation going through that. The same
thing with the
five-foot boundary agreement we've met with our neighboring
property owners and
we're we're confident we can reach an agreement on that but
they would be in a
form of a deed restriction to get recorded in the deed
records and until
we get zoning in place we didn't want to go through the all
that exercise as well.
We fully understand that until those two things get solved
even if this gets
approved we couldn't move forward until those were solved
and and we're
confident we can get those solved so that's two things. Can
I stop you a sec?
Did you say you do have an agreement reached with the
neighbor? We're
confident we're going to be able to get one. We've met with
them and they've
showed interest in entering into an agreement with us. Okay
great thank you.
Okay this really boils down to parking I think. Our heights
really not any
different from from Fry the U Center Fry Street. The
difference between those two
is that we're proposing less parking for the residential
portion of 0.7 parking
spaces per bed versus the one per bed that they do. Rodney
King will who's my
client will come up and go through this whole presentation.
I'll just take a
minute though. What we're proposing is actually consistent
in our mind with the
comprehensive plan. There's a provision of the Denton 2030
plan that says if
you're adjacent to the University you you're a good
candidate to have reduced
parking because you're putting students right across the
street from where
they're going to school. I am a father of one daughter who
's in college and one
is about and the son is about to go to college and I've
been to the colleges
and kids don't drive as much as they did when I was a kid.
It's too convenient to
take uber bicycles other ways to get around especially in a
college town and
we're confident that that would be recognized by the
students who live here.
Rodney will go into more details on that but I do think
that in the state of the
art planning in the United States right now increasing
density next to colleges
and reducing parking is is common and accepted and it's
something Rodney will
go into a little bit more detail with. I do thank you for
your time I'll turn
over Rodney. Yes sir. One other question have you
considered what DCTA services
would be providing for this facility possibly as well as
another means of
transportation for students? Yes sir Rodney had spoken to
some folks over DCTA to talk
about altering schedules to accommodate and none of this is
gonna be zip cars
here on campus if you know what a zip car is where you
people can get like a
fractional ownership of car just use it when they need it.
So he will go into
that a little more detail but it's not it's not like it was
when I was in
college there's a lot more options. May have one other
question. Commissioner Beck
did you have a question? Yes thank you chair thank you Mr.
Baldwin for your presentation.
I would beg to disagree with you though on the height issue
probably nothing's
changed but that would mean that the taller height was
always there in the
first place in my opinion. Well I was I was at the briefing
session we talked
about the sixth floor the sixth floor of a parking garage
is the same height as a
five-story a six-story parking garage the same height as a
five-story residential
structure because they have lower heights between floors.
Okay but standing
side-by-side to sub area A and B are you saying we wouldn't
see any difference
in height? Not with A because A has a much shorter height A
is 35 feet I
believe between us and the youth center we're within two
feet of each other. Okay
let me put you on the spot a little bit here. Okay that's
what I'm here for. You in your opinion what do you think
were the top two things that the residents were opposed to?
Could you? Parking and height. Okay yeah and you've made it
advance a little bit on the
parking yet you're still under that and the height really
hasn't changed at all
so I'm just curious other than you made a couple of changes
what brings you back
here thinking that there's going to be a change of? We
really believe this is a
good project and I understand the position you're in it's
hard to to go
against neighborhood opposition but we think from a an
urban design standpoint
this project makes sense and it made sense for the youth
center to go there
and at that height I don't see why it would make less sense
for us to come in
so it really boils down in my mind to parking and Rodney
will go into research
he's done where the youth center parking is not utilized at
100%. There's
there's plenty of extra spaces as are the 33 degrees north
there's lots of
spaces in their parking garages that are not used because
the students just don't
bring the cars in it so to speak to your point I thought
that when we resubmitted
I thought that we're gonna get a lot closer to meeting the
parking requirement
based on a administrative reduction in parking that we
thought we were going to
get which we didn't but when we were in the system we still
think it's a good
project. Thank you sir. You're welcome. One more question.
Commissioner Ellis. Thank
you chair. Good evening. Question with regard to the
securing of the extra
parking spaces which I understand is now a current parking
lot is that correct?
Yes ma'am. And what is it being used for now? I'm sorry?
What is it currently
being used for now? I understand it's being used I'll let
Rodney speak to it
as well but it's being used for Vortman's employee parking
it's what I
understand. Okay thank you. But when he comes up grill him
he'll know for sure.
I'm gonna turn over this is Rodney King with EDR out of
Memphis he's here as the
developer. Great thank you. Thank you guys. Not a short
presentation but I'll skip
through most of it since. Sorry you got ten minutes so.
Take your time.
Well just to give you guys a little bit of background about
EDR we're based in
Memphis Tennessee with the nation's second largest student
housing REIT. We're
a public company we've been around in business for 52 years
we have about 40
thousand beds nationwide. We also have six properties in
Texas ranging located
in Lubbock all the way down to Texas A&M Commerce what not
all the way down that
that marker is wrong all the way down to San Marcos Texas.
Here just a few of our
projects in glance as you'll see the project at the bottom
right is it in
Fort Worth. We pride ourselves on trying to complement the
existing architecture
while improving the site. Here's our project at University
of Minnesota and
also Texas Tech. This is Yukon and Austin. Here's a little
bit of project overview
as you guys can see we've been you know pursuing this
project for quite a while
now over a year. We've had several public meetings we've
tried to intake the
public's comments and adjust the plans as necessary. We
think we've come to a
final point of the plans that's why we're back here today
to kind of bring
a conclusion to this matter. I believe we've made the
project better once we
initially started out with the project before we even got
to P&Z we're about 60%
park so we've made material increases in the parking we've
reduced the density
quite a bit. And Rob alluded to this earlier we actually
believe this project
supports the DEN plan 2030. One of the items in the plan is
supports mixed use
projects and close proximity to the university. In our
opinion you can't get
any closer to the university than this project it is
literally right across the
street and it is it is a mixed use project the majority of
the first floor
is commercial spaces and also one of the tenants of the
plan is to create a
buffer zone between the university and the historic
neighborhoods and Frye
Street and Hickory and Oak is that buffer zone in our
opinion. The scale of
the project comes down from the university I think you have
about eight
nine-story university buildings right across the street so
this gradually
brings down the scale of the university into the to the
neighborhoods and also
just and collegiate housing in general purpose-built colleg
iate housing draws
from the shadow market in our opinion it takes away from
those students renting
houses that are five six seven people in a single-family
house and puts them in a
project and a product that is specifically geared toward
them. And the
then 2030 plan also supports relaxed parking and close
proximity to the
university. As I said we believe this project is consistent
with the plan and
we hope you guys do too. Just a little bit of information
on the project is 300
beds 222 spaces about 77 76.7 percent part is located at 13
14 Hickory Street
obviously right across the street from the university. This
is just a
comparison to a couple other purpose-built student housing
projects. We
believe this project is extremely similar to the youth
center at Fry Street.
They are one-to-one park which is probably a block away but
according to
our research and according to the manager on site they're
not utilizing
all of their parking. So we didn't feel like it was prudent
or market the market
wasn't suggesting we needed more parking to satisfy the
need. The last thing we
want to do is build a project that's not successful. If we
believe that we needed
more parking we would we would we would obviously do it.
Here's a comparison of
33 degrees north which is on the south side of campus. It's
427 beds about two
348 spaces about 275 are utilized. That's between half and
three quarters. So the
market is telling us what the parking demand is for these
types of projects in
our opinion. Here's just a quick comparison of the project.
Rob alluded to
the height earlier. The height did not grow the way we
measured height is the
difference between now and when we present it back in
January. We also have
our engineers here for the traffic study. I don't know if
you guys want us to go
into detail with it now or we could kind of reserve that
for questions. I leave it
up to you Mr. Chair. Let's do for questions. I'm sorry. If
there's questions
in the essence of time. Sure sure. Sure if you want to go.
If you're
asking if I understood your question you wanted to see if
we need to have your
engineers correct. And I think you said if we had questions
I could come forward.
I was agreeing with you. If we have questions for them then
yes we'll bring
them forward at that time. Sorry if that wasn't clear. No
problem. And some of the
amenities that will be included in the project is obviously
zip car. As Rob said
there's a fractional share of a car. We're students who don
't own a car but
need a car on a per trip basis. We will offer that amenity
in the project. Well
also we also have a unique relationship with a company
called Gotcha Bike. It's
very similar to zip car but it's revolving around bikes.
You can rent a
bike. You can rent a bike for a day. You can rent a bike
for a week and you're
charged for that. And also Uber obviously. I think
everybody's pretty
familiar what Uber is. Same thing with site capacity and
utilities. If there's any
questions revolving around it we have our engineers here to
do that. Some of
the advantages of the project in our opinion is it's within
steps of the
University. We believe this is the highest and best use of
this site. It is
purpose-built collegiate housing right across the street
from the core of UNT's
campus. UNT is obviously growing and the demand for purpose
-built student housing
is here in the community and we're trying to satisfy that
need. Also based
on our multiple properties across the country students and
when you are in this
close proximity to campus students don't drive their cars
to class. They get out
of bed and they walk to class from this type of location.
If we're in a garden
style sprawling project two miles away we believe they
would drive to class but
in this type of project we don't believe they will. And
also this creates an
entertainment district that is within proximity of the
University. You have the
first floor commercial use in a fry street and you have the
majority of our
first floor commercial uses. So you're creating this
vibrant walkable district
within the University within the University's edge. If you
measure the
building from its average grade from its prevailing grade
the average height of
the buildings about 58 feet and we're asking for a height
variance of however
you guys want to measure. We want five stories and however
you want to measure
in our opinion is 58 feet. I think the way Ron is measuring
is 62 feet. We're
asking for a parking ratio down from 75 to 76 percent from
the one-to-one. And
with that I'll take the Commissioner's questions. And a
couple questions for a
Commissioner Beck. Thank you Chair. Good seeing you again
Mr. Keene. I would like to say you do have an excellent
product. I went on your site and looked at it. You've got a
remarkable staff, a laundry list of your developments are
it's awesome. So regardless
of what the vote turns out to be here tonight I hope that
Denton does see you
here and building this because I think you've got a good
quality product. Now you
mentioned that this you felt that this site was the highest
and best use for it.
But and I don't disagree that we need this type of building
there but again why
five stories why not stay within the limits that are
already set there with
this overlay district. I think we covered this in January
but if you would
reiterate that for us please. Sure what's driving to be
frank what's driving the
height of the building is purely economics. Denton without
going to an
elaborated finance you know model. Denton is a high
property tax municipality and
land values here are rising. So you have to get a certain
amount of density for
any project to pencil so to speak. So that's what's driving
the height of the
building. If we could build more we would like to on this
site because we think
this site is irreplaceable in our opinion. But to be
compatible with the
neighborhood and you know it's a balancing act between you
know economics
and the land values and property taxes. So that's what's
really driving the
height. We believe if the amendment this is you know not a
front to the
residents but if the zoning doesn't change and the land
value and the
property taxes don't change the only other variable is land
value. So if you
can't get density where you need it you can't pay the same
amount for the land.
So you're saying anything less than five stories and wouldn
't be profitable.
Correct. Not profitable but not feasible. Okay thank you.
Commissioner Rossell.
Thank you chair. I have several questions and hopefully I
can get through these
efficiently. I'm trying to figure out how many parking
spaces there are proposed
in the plan and I can't count the parking garages but to
your
understanding how many proposed spaces are in your site
plan. I understand it's
260 spaces that means the residential I mean that means the
retail is
parked to code. Both uses are parked to code and we're
asking for a variance on
the residential piece to 0.76. Okay so in your narrative
submitted to us it says
252. Correct. In our city backup it says the requirements
260 but you have 258
leaving you short of the proposed that you had of 260. I'm
not sure where that
discrepancy comes in but additionally in the backup exhibit
3575F it outlines the
additional 36 parking spaces but on this site plan there's
45 parking spaces not
36 and so I hope you can understand my confusion. I'm
trying to understand what
actual parking is being presented to us to vote on this
evening so maybe we can
start with this. In this exhibit for sub area C site plan
can you help me
understand what these nine parking spots to the east are? I
'm not I don't hear
you. You're more than welcome to. Yeah can you set it on
the felt? I've got an overhead there.
Those nine parking spots to the east are technically within
our survey but
they're being used by adjacent property owner. We are not
counting those spaces
too in the project but we are legally entitled to them but
we didn't want to
go through the legal process of claiming those. Okay. There
's another apartment
complex outside the outside of the site map. So they have
like a lease agreement
or some sort of? Actually they're just encroaching. Okay so
I'm understanding
why when parking is so much of an issue you wouldn't
include those as some that
y'all could take back in this. That is certainly an avenue
we may want to
pursue but in order to keep the project on a certain
timeline that's a legal
process that could take a long time. Okay I certainly
understand the timing of it
but it seems like low-hanging fruit as we're talking so
much about parking that
there's nine spots just sitting on your land. Correct. And
so I guess to end my
point on the parking there is 260 not 258 maybe someone
from City can tell me
where the 258 is on our backup.
Commissioner Rezell the 258 is the calculation that the
applicant has
specified in their site plan but the way we calculated it
made me two parking
spaces off I think what we did was we rounded up and they
just
rounded it to the nearest number so that's the difference
of the two parking
spaces. So it's feasible if this project goes forward they
actually could build
260? The way that the site plan is currently designed they
show 258 so
that's what they I believe can produce is 258. Okay thank
you. So my other two
two questions and you heard my question earlier about the
UNT student housing is
this a designation that's official from the University and
do you have it? No
that was just one of our consultants labeling it we are no
way an affiliated
with the University of North Texas we believe that the
market dynamics the
majority of our tenants will be students of the University
by way of a type of
leasing we're instituting here but we're not affiliated
with the University and
to kind of put a bow in your parking conversation we've
been in discussions
with the University of North Texas you know over the last
year and they do have
an underutilized parking garage and we and UNT students are
entitled to park
in that garage so we've made the agreement and we're
certainly willing to
agree to this subject to approval that if our parking
exceeds capacity and a
UNT student needs parking we are willing to pay the
difference in that garage for
our students so that effectively brings us well more than a
hundred percent
parking and that garage is within a block and a half of our
site. Do you know
how many feet that is? I don't know how many feet. I think
it is within the 1000
feet. I think our requirements within a thousand. It is
within 1000 feet. I don't know if
staff can clarify that point for us during this hearing
that this particular
garage would be within a thousand that we may or may not be
able to consider
that. We would actually have to measure that to discern the
distance so we
wouldn't be able to just look at a map right now we would
have to get into our
GIS system and measure that. Okay. So I have one more
question slash maybe point.
Both Mr. Baldwin and you Mr. King have talked about really
the only difference
here we're talking about is parking how the height is very
similar. Correct. We
were provided from the considerations of staff differences
in what is currently
in sub A and sub B and what is being proposed by EDR and so
if I understand
this correctly there is a change to maximum building height
requested, a
change to maximum parking garage height requested, a change
of maximum density
requested, a change or an increase to building coverage for
residential, an
increased change to building coverage for mixed use, there
's a decrease
requirement for minimum landscape area and there is a
request to reduce the
rear yard setback. Y'all are asking for more than parking.
All those requests are
particularly driven by height. If we took a story off the
building obviously the
density per acre goes down so the primary drivers of those
requests are
height in our opinion. Okay thank you. Commissioner Hesbeth
. Thank You Chair.
Mr. King. So I have a functional question following up from
our previous
conversation. So I'm gonna use and I forget his name the
first presenter.
Mr. Baldwin. Thank you. So using that example so Mr.
Baldwin sends his son to UNT and there at your facility
right and so my
question is if he's leasing a room or an apartment in that
in a quad if you will
what controls do you have understanding you're limited
legally and who else
fills those other three spaces so for example I have all
daughters right so if
my daughter's in one of those locations what controls do
you have about 45 50
60 year old man renting an apartment in that same quad as a
20 year old girl?
First we must abide by all fair housing laws you know that
's supreme but the
type of programs and the type of leasing that we implement
in these projects I
would venture to say that 99% of our tenants are students
to the adjacent
universities so from a control standpoint we lease by the
bed which
automatically draws a certain type of clientele in their
opinion. We also if
your daughter and three of her friends wanted to come and
lease at our project
if she brought four of her friends and wanted to rent a
four-bedroom we would
obviously place those people together. We have several
management type of programs
from roommate matching to you pick your own unit so we have
controls and
incentives to put people where they want to be. But to cut
to the quick you can't
prevent that from happening just legally there's I
understand not saying it's
it's it's your fault I'm just saying it is a reality. We
can't steer we can't
discriminate against any group. Right thank you. Any other
question?
Commissioner Alice. I'm sorry thank you I'm gonna go back
to that parking lot
question do you have an answer for me? Could you remind me
of the question?
Sorry. So that off-site parking the 36 spaces on Bryan
Street there? Currently
Vortmans is using that parking spot for employee parking
and also the owner of
the project is not here but he also leases some of those
spaces to
professors and whomever he could generate cash from. But
the majority of
it in my from my interpretation of it is employee parking.
Okay and then I guess
my concern with it is then those people who are currently
using it won't be able
to use it because it's going to be designated for this
project. Well based
on Vortmans square footage of his establishment is being
cut in half
basically. He owns about a 24,000 square foot building it's
being reduced down to
12,000 square feet and based on our plan we're parking that
square footage of
that type of use to code. In the garage. Yeah I understand
that I'm trying to
wrap my head around are really increasing spaces if we're
taking spaces
away from people who are utilizing them now not affiliated
with this project. I
think for the type of use obviously for the type of use I
think is within code
but the the retail square footage is being reduced so that
parking may not
need to be utilized as it is currently today because the
the retail usage has
been cutting ahead. Well the professors have to park
somewhere. Well the UNT does
have an underutilized garage. Thank you. Commissioner Hesm
uth. One and I you may
not have it ready now but I am very much interested in the
site you make to the
2030 plan. If someone can give me I have I had a PDF if
someone can give me the
page that you're referencing on the administrative hearing
that allows for a
reduction near university or mixed use. You both you have
cited it but I don't
I don't I'd like to read it. That I I would have to defer
to staff. No no I
mean yes thank you. We're gonna wait for an answer we're
gonna okay do we have
any other any other questions for the applicant? Thank you
sir. Thank you Mr.
Chairman. This is a public hearing I have a stack of cards
and we're gonna go
through these but anyone who wishes to speak this evening
on this item please
fill out a card when you come forward if you'll state your
name and address and
then you'll have four minutes. The first card first card
that I have is Donna
Morris on Oak Street speaking in opposition and that will
be she will be
followed by looks like Kim McKibbin.
I'm Donna Morris I live at 918 West Oak we have owned that
house for since 2004
when we first moved there you could walk up and down Oak
Street and cross the
street be safe and as things have changed Fry Street
changed the big
apartment complex went in with all the students and we were
told that it really
wouldn't affect the traffic that much but now if you try to
back your car out
on Oak Street any time other than seven o'clock on Sunday
morning you have to
wait five to ten minutes to back out. You've spent a lot of
time on the parking
situation but nobody's mentioned the traffic increase that
that would cause
and it will those cars don't stay parked in those lots all
week let me tell you.
UNT does have a underutilized parking garage up there it's
underutilized
because they charge too much for the students to park there
they park all the
way down Oak Street practically to Carroll Boulevard all
the way down
Hickory Street to Carroll Boulevard they park on the
streets the small streets
behind us Amarillo, Gregg, Anderson all of those their
parks so full that it's
routine for us to go out and have to put a note on a car
you've blocked my car in
the parking in the driveway again. You're considering a lot
on parking and thank
you I understand that but please consider what you're doing
to the
traffic. Okay have a couple questions for you before you go
. Commissioner Ozil.
Thank you I appreciate you coming tonight and speaking your
concerns I
have a question about traffic are you I want to make sure I
understand what
you're requesting or what you're stating to us are you not
wanting the project
at all or what do you? Well I understand that times change
and we get older and so
forth but we as the residents of Oak Hickory were told when
that first
apartment complex went up there were all kinds of traffic
surveys done most of
them were done when the students weren't there nothing has
been done to do
anything about traffic on Oak and Hickory streets nothing
the streets are
the same size right now if you come down Hickory Street and
cross Carroll
Boulevard you don't know what lane you're supposed to be in
and most people
are in the wrong lane and you have squeezed a bicycle lane
a left lane only
a right lane only and lane ahead only and a thing that
sticks out in the
middle of the street that makes it look beautiful and there
's no room for cars
my husband in August was hit by a car that was backing out
on Oak Street
because he was so busy watching for traffic he didn't see
my husband and the
traffic is so bad we have to figure out where we're going
to cross that we get
enough space that we're able to have time to get across
before all those cars
come either I'm willing to pay for a toll gate that goes
across Oak Street
to slow them down or something I certainly appreciate the
feedback on the
traffic I'm trying to understand is in accordance to this
proposed project
how would you what would you like to with the project to
have I I would like
the project not to happen until the city makes a real
commitment to do something
about the traffic there the city made a commitment several
years ago and nothing
happened okay and they they do their surveys in the middle
of August or the
middle of January and tell us oh you don't have a problem
we'll come out and
sit there for a while and look at it sure and that's
definitely on the city to
do yes yes that portion of it I but in terms of the
developers but if you're
looking at this project and saying oh they've met
everything and so forth
you're not doing what you should be doing for the citizens
of the city I
absolutely agree and I take that responsibility seriously
on how to vote
that's why I'm just wanting to give you an opportunity to
express are you
saying that there should be less parking there should be
more parking at the
building I'm trying to understand in relation to the
project relation to the
project I'm not worried about the parking I'm telling you
that those cars
won't stay parked there all week they go up and down the
street you as the city
would be putting 300 more cars in the traffic on Oak Street
in an area that's
not equipped to take it now okay thank you couple more
questions for you
Commissioner back thank you thank you miss Morris for
coming down speaking let
me ask you a question I want to pose this to every other
individual that
comes down and speaks tonight you say you've been in on
your Oak Street house
since 2004 so you were there you weren't there when they
did sub area a which was
in 2000 but you were there when they did sub area B which
is 2010 at that time
did you agree with the changes were you part of the process
we were part of the
people that were saying you've got to do something about
the traffic okay I did
we did not agree with it we didn't agree with it when they
were putting trying to
put three or four fast food restaurants in there when they
were trying to put
the CVS pharmacy in there we we feel I understand that the
city moves forward
and you have to make changes and so forth but I feel that
over and over again
we have been told one thing and given nothing okay so you
feel like that you
were opposed to it essentially the both of the changes
there and your feeling is
what now if this one goes up my feeling now is don't build
anything else don't
put anything else in there until you take care of the
traffic problems you
have now okay okay thank you Commissioner Hesworth thank
you chair one
quick I have a question but I want to get make sure I have
my boundaries right
but all what where does city of Denton versus you and T
fall on this particular
area as far as control just give me some direction there
are you referencing in
terms of ownership in terms of who manages the road and who
has ability to
widen the road that those restrictions okay I'm actually
going to ask Earl to
come down and speak to some of the traffic issues he's
present in terms of
the right-of-way that is city owned right-of-way but there
are some I believe
as it relates to parking mechanisms perhaps not in this
area but further
down the street but if you have any specificity associated
with well
specifically I want to try to focus focus on her concern
being the
development bringing more traffic to Oak fry Street Oak in
general Hickory Street
in general specifically with this project that corner fry
Street Oak right
there but I don't know that that's fall I don't know if we
have any control over
that we city have any control over that particular segment
of street sure if
Earl can come down and perhaps shed some light on the TIA
that was submitted
because that those parameters reflected in the TIA okay so
don't I want to I
have a question thank you thank you Earl can we also get
the date on the TIA
when it was performed please yes let me backtrack to the T
IA that was performed
for the fry Street development it was performed back in
2010 and when they
came in they projected the development by making certain
percentage of
assumptions of modes of transportation because it's a
single single resident
or single room occupancy type development geared towards
students and
so when the TIA came in they made assumptions on which mode
of
transportation this development take whether it's
pedestrian or pedestrian
and bicycle vehicle or buses and so based on that they
projected the vehicle
trips to be 79 in the morning during the peak hours which
is your seven to nine
and 143 in the afternoon which is your four to six time
slot and that's usually
the peak hours of the background itself when everybody's
most likely going to
work during those times we're coming back from work and so
what we did as
staff earlier this week as we went out there and actually
observed the traffic
flow that fry Street development just to see how it matched
up to the TIA
and we calculated or recounted 63 in the morning and 156 in
the afternoon so it's
it's almost some almost spot-on to what the TIA was was
assuming and so going
back to the going to the Hickory Street development that
was performed I can
find the cover sheet and June of this year this development
is half the size
in terms of number of bedrooms fry Street has 620 beds this
development has
300 the retail component is a little bit larger than their
fry Street but the
businesses that are going into the retail component of this
development are
the same businesses that are being torn out the warm ins
and the subway so the
traffic counts for the commercial component should be awash
so that
increase in traffic is primarily the multifamily component
or the student
bedrooms and so they projected a peak a.m. of 75 and a peak
p.m. of 108 which
is somewhat proportionate to the fry Street development in
terms of scale and
size and so you know given the background traffic right now
there's
about 800 trips in a peak hour on oak and similar amount
along Hickory and so
I mean percentage wise it's really not that much of an
increase less than 10%
there are some when we were out there observing the traffic
there are some
speed issues that can be addressed they're just traffic
just flying through
through Oak Street primarily that's where the main entrance
to the fry Street
development is now so there are some mechanisms or
processes that we can
implement to slow that traffic down whether it's police at
first and you
know if that can't be resolved then maybe there's some
traffic calming
devices that could be inserted along oak through our
traffic department so
so is that our is that under our city of Denton purview to
so traffic calming
the those type mechanisms or is that you and tease that
would be the city of
Denton okay so that's our roadway thank you that is so if I
may sure continues
thank you okay thank you so miss Morris understanding we're
looking at this
particular project I want to I want to try to I think we
can agree that you and
T in and of itself is growing and more students and they
have a Dallas campuses
commuting in and they have the satellite campus there near
Luke 28 that's growing
and so I think overall I don't want to hold this particular
applicant
responsible for being next to a university that's growing
that's that's
the goal right and so I'm curious they make the point okay
someone's closer to
the university they're gonna walk they experience the same
traffic headaches
that everyone else does so they say hey I'm motivated just
to walk or ride a
bike or you zip car does that resonate with you I'm just
curious does that make
sense that they're gonna experience the same traffic and
they would look to
avoid that by being close to campus and using other modes
of transportation
well I don't know that they I understand that they would
not be using their cars
to go to school you and T is growing there are other areas
farther west of
UNT you look at the apartments that have gone in near the
hospital complex the
the road the roads and infrastructure there are far better
for the density that
it's going in that has gone in there then the
infrastructure on Oak Street
for the density that you're talking about putting in there
got it okay well
thank you thank you one more question ma'am
Commissioner Rizzo thank you this is actually for our all
thank you thank you
very much this might just be for the edification of all
involved it's my
understanding mobility plan has three basic types of roads
major artilleries
secondary arteries and then collector streets and Oak
Street is on the
ability plan designated as a secondary artery keys it's
considered more like a
one-way couplet so between the combination of Hickory on
the south
side and oak on the north side kind of serves as that
secondary arterial can
type can you tell me what what the expectation is of a
secondary arterial
street what is what does that mean what is what is the
secondary arterial mean
secondary arterial it's I mean essentially the principle of
an arterial
is to move traffic from one side of town to the other and a
quick as possible
manner now the difference between a secondary arterial and
primary arterial is
just the volume of traffic the because a primary arterial
has six lanes that are
divided in a secondary only has two lanes okay and if I
understand this the
front west of Carroll there's a major artery arterial at
University and then
their secondary is at Eagle and Oak is that the general
flow from Carroll West
Eagle Oak University that are your major quiz in you west
okay corridors
that's correct okay thank you mm-hmm
thank you our next speaker is Kimmy McKibbin at Hickory
Street speaking in
opposition to be followed by Anderson Mary or Manny good
evening this makes
the fourth time that I've been a community hearing about
this particular
project my name is Kim McKibbin and I own the building and
the business at 1306
West Hickory that is adjacent to this property and I think
it's very
interesting that this was brought up and he talked to you
about adjacent
properties having already been talked to and agreeing I'm
not sure what that is
if it's because I do kind of share a wall with one that
they're going to
tear down those little six spaces there on Hickory and no
they have not talked
to me so I'm not sure what they're referring to about about
that a lot of
people have talked about the parking here parking is an
issue they have not
brought up the fact that they are removing 68 parking
places from account
walking around in the parking lot including the only three
handicapped
spaces in that section to build the building so they're
taking away 68
spaces and I am including the ones along the front on Hick
ory Street that are
currently public parking and have meters so yeah that's
what they're taking away
traffic is is pretty much a nightmare I can tell you that
coming down Hickory
Street it's very dangerous I can tell you that the traffic
backs up from the red
light at Fry Street to the red light up at CVS and past
that so you're literally
waiting for the lights to change to come through but I don
't think that it's I
think that the argument about the traffic is a distractor
in the case for
this building this building does not fit the current
ordinance this contractor is
asking you to change your city ordinance to change your
city laws so that they
can make a bigger profit something about that irritates me
just a little bit I
came back to the Fry Street area I bought the building I
bought the
business I want to be there to stay I'm aware of what the
2030 plan is and the
understanding that this area is a buffer zone between the
university that does
not mean that is a big stone wall that means that you have
a way to gradually
move from the university back into the neighborhood and I
understand the
university's growing but the city of Denton and the
citizens of Denton are
not completely responsible for supporting the growth of the
University
of North Texas and sometimes that's what we have to look at
is what's happening
now another thing about this particular building is that it
's real pretty here
on this picture and the this car that's here is sitting
with its nose in where
my building would be so there's there's some things like
that that are happening
also these buildings these apartments mr. Husspeth asked I
've got four girls
what's to keep them from putting a gentleman in there that
's not so much
the problem mr. Husspeth from what I talked to the students
about that have
these apartments as much as it is there's four people in
the department and
then there's somebody's boyfriend with a child somebody's
girlfriend with a child
if you've got a room in an apartment that you're paying
over $700 for
sometimes you're gonna have split that room and it turns
into more people in
the building than what they ever anticipated and yes it
does happen you
know they bring in the boyfriend the boyfriend brings in
the the child and
then you have a whole assortment of things going on I think
that using
Sterling house and Fry Street and 33 North are bad examples
in these cases
they've made for bad neighbors and they've changed the the
feeling of the
neighborhood they've changed the purpose of the
neighborhood in a lot of ways so
you have to consider that comparing just because one got
built doesn't mean they
shouldn't build a bigger one one's enough one's really
enough and the
property can be utilized in a more community oriented way
it can also be
have more housing not housing but retail in it when he says
that most the first
floor is retail I disagree because there's a pool and there
's a patio and
all those amenities on the first on the first level of this
apartment complex
there's so many things that I'd really like to talk to you
guys about about
this but one other thing that I want to bring up very
quickly is to get the fire
lane that they wanted they have a two-lane street that
comes down the
east side of this building and it comes in and out on Hick
ory and I can't speak
oh I know people really go really fast on oak but I know
people go really fast
on Hickory too so to get in and out on the Hickory coming
down that street
they're going to be dealing with all the traffic with the
speed with the hill
it's going to be a dangerous situation so I'm just
concerned about that when I
look at this particular diagram for things so I'm asking
that this project
not be built unless it can conform to our ordinances to
what the original Fry
Street ordinance was and I don't think they have any
intention of doing that
because it's not profitable for them I think it's a lovely
project I don't I
think this is the wrong place to put it got a question for
you yes sir
Commissioner Beck thank you chair thank you miss Kevin for
your presentation and
to my question to miss Morris how long have you been at
your location on
Hickory Street I bought the building three years ago the
building in the
business I have been on the front in the Fry Street area
and in Denton since 1981
okay so were you part of the process when sub area a and B
were developed and
if so how were you about this change I wasn't okay with
this change I think that
when they raised all the buildings there in sub area a that
we lost a piece of
history in Denton the historical buildings that we lost the
character of
those buildings the community that was there and at that
time you know they
basically said don't worry it'll just move down the street
well it did it all
moved down the street to Main Street and on past that and
into the industrial
area so now we've got a big mess down there too but no I
think that didn't
really lost some of its character when they lost those
buildings and I felt for
these people because that live in the historic buildings
around it because
this is not what they bargained for when they bought those
houses that's not what
it was and you know to have a building that big go up four
stories it
overpowers anything that's across the street on the campus
so there's not
really a transition you've got a wall there the businesses
that are there are
a lot of them had gone out of business recently because of
different various
things the parking that's there they have parking for the
public on the
bottom floor so you know so you want to compare that you
feel like your worst
fears have been realized in with these the two buildings
that are already there
are you concerned that this is are you talking about the
one building that's
there well both you got the student building and then the
apartment complex
sub area a was the first one yeah to 2000 sub area B was
2010 so well it's
2010 the the one that was fry Street sterling house yeah
those things I think
you have to really take into consideration what it did for
the whole
neighborhood or what it didn't do for the neighborhood so
if you focus on
parking and you focus on traffic and you don't focus on the
the people that live
there those of us that work there you're kind of missing
the ball for us because
that's what the ordinances were originally written for was
to protect
that certain area okay thank you you're welcome one more
question for you
Commissioner Hesbeth so I want to you own the young the
coffee shop there I
mean right okay and so I want to kind of explore that with
you a little bit
because you have a unit you have a unique insight to that
so there's a
business out of the business that we all get I mean you
understand just like
anyone would I mean I wouldn't be able to come in a coffee
shop and say a
coffee bean cost this so extrapolate hot water and I should
be able to pay that
I mean there's other other factors in there so I'm curious
though with this
project specifically I think miss Morris brings a good
point there's a lot of
development off campus that I think generates a lot of
traffic on campus I
mean because specifically that that complex near the near
Presbyterian
Hospital is huge and growing and they're developing those
different areas and
they use and it I think that's oak or hickory and so it
leads you know and so
and with University being in the shape it is it almost
motivates people to go
through oak so I want to set aside the traffic for a second
just the business
it would enhance the area because you have that little
corner right where they
park their bikes it's kind of dark and I think there's a
stairway they next year
yeah that is part of my building yeah so it enhances the
area by by default just
kind of along fordman's I'm assuming that's more like that
sort of thing but
can you see the good I guess to start there can you see the
good that it would
bring your business or are you willing to set that aside
for the because I think
the traffic is going to be there regardless right I mean if
it's coming
from off-site I don't think there's a way around the
traffic so I want to kind
of set that aside that's what I'm saying that's not
necessarily the major focus
right and so I think if we're talking more if they come in
the code with the
parking does that make you okay because I don't know that
helps I want to help
the neighborhood and the fact that they can add more
parking to come one to one
I don't think that makes an impact on the day-in-day-out
lives of the people
living in that overlay area and then no I don't I think
that it's absolutely
necessary that they have at least one-to-one parking but we
go back to the
issue again if you build a 60-foot building next to my two-
story building
on the west side I'm gonna be in the dark most of the day I
mean just that's
the reality of it the other buildings that are there are
not that height this
one's going to be definitely out of place the density of
the people that are
in there and the kids that will be crossing the street they
're not going to
go to the corner and cross with the light they're gonna go
right across
Hickory Street now the business side of it and I think
somebody at one point
asked me oh you'll have you know all these new people no
that's not
necessarily what's going to happen because in the
summertime and in
holidays those those kids leave they're gone what it will
bring is what Sterling
has brought to us with people you know up on balconies and
just missing your
head sometimes with a beer bottle because they're aiming at
the trash cans
one of the receptacles that they want to put is adjacent to
my building so the
people my balcony will look into their trash can so that's
a little
disconcerting for me I don't see anything that this size
and density of a
building can bring to the Fry Street area that is going to
be beneficial if
they bring it down they increase the retail underneath it
and they do
something that that works for the community that works for
the scale I
could understand that but right now you know they're they
're not really looking
at that they're just looking at their profit margin well
and I have a question
specifically with a retail though we we can agree that hadn
't worked at Sterling
I can't you can't get in there the businesses that have
been in and out of
there correct and these businesses that they're proposing
have been staples as
long as I can remember that Jack in the Box has been there
the subway's been
there Vortman's have been there I born and raised here I
don't remember when
they weren't there and so but yet you mentioned increase
retail right if you
look at the if you look at what they're trying to do with
the 2030 plan and
where they're trying to move the amount of retail in
relationship to the size
of the building here is small and you know I'm I'm sorry
that the the owner of
Vortman's isn't here tonight because it's it's his desire
just to reduce his
footprint you know he just wants to to make profit he gets
to keep his bill he
gets to keep his building and that kind of stuff I'm not
sure how that works but
the I think that there's something better that could be
done with this it
could be in more open area there is nothing that's being
offered to the
community through this building he talks about zip cars
where you gonna park
those zip cars he talks about bicycles there's not even a
bicycle rack on this
plan so you know when you start looking at alternative
means once again you're
you're pulling some things and like I said 68 parking
spaces the only three
handicapped parking spaces in the block how does all that
gonna work I'm just
not real sure I mean the laws mandate that they'll have
enough I know yeah
there's no way around that but what are you I guess that
kind of if it's okay if
I ask you a question when you talk about the business side
of it are you talking
about my business no just general so we're gonna have
people come up and say
it's a business decision and my point is just to neutralize
that and say they all
are right I mean yeah no I mean everyone does that that
that's the price of being
in business you know there's employees there's insurance
there's taxes so I so
that I just kind of want to normalize the conversation so
that we can all kind
of be on the same even level playing field and have
tangible actionable items
to consider so yeah but what happens to my building I mean
what happens to the
building what happens to the traffic and everything to
during the construction
phase of all this if you start moving dirt around my
building my building was
built in 1942 as a boarding house it's all galvanized pipe
it's got you know
I've got the and you start shaking that ground you're gonna
start shaking the
building and things are gonna move around and come down and
I have not
gotten a stable answer out of that the engineers say oh
yeah there's plenty of
capacity for the sewage there's plenty of capacity for the
water but I actually
heard one of them stand here and say well if our water
pressure drops we'll
just turn on the fire pumps to get the water to our
building what do you do
with the rest of the buildings that are there you know what
do you do with the
people up the street that were dependent upon that water so
you know it's a nice
project it needs to be someplace other than that one point
whatever it is
acres in the middle of the block even when you when they
took the the other the
the first overlay district the first sub district it took
the whole block it
didn't just take the center of a block sure thank you mm-
hmm one more question
Commissioner Brazil just a clarification you know the
coffee shop next to Kush
and the copy center there what yes that's your property yes
it's two stories
okay is the majority of your traffic by foot bike card have
you measured that
could you provide some insight into your customers routine
a lot of it's by foot
the reason I don't have a lot of car traffic is there's no
place to park
recently and I don't know who or how this happened but I
was very grateful
the parking spaces were marked retail parking I mean they
put stickers on them
when people come in it you know they they have to pay we
get lots of tickets
from the University of North Texas if you're there for more
than an hour and
sticker goes out so I would say that basically mine is is
probably more foot
traffic bicycle traffic and during the week but I'll still
have I mean the
people will park their cars and I don't know where they
park their cars I'm not
gonna admit that I know where they park their cars they go
early to get a
parking space you know on one of the feeder streets they
come to my shop they
get something some coffee they work on their homework and
then they go to class
and they come back over where I am or they go to the Union
so the streets are
being used as as the parking areas sure does your business
have parking spots
available what is your parking interesting you should ask
that question
I have an agreement with workman's my employees park in
there a lot okay so I
will have to get a variance to have a place for my
employees to park or they
will be taking up the parking spaces I have ten employees
they're not there all
the time but and then I rent for parking spaces from Fort
man's okay and so
potentially your your business can be negatively impacted
by losing those
parking spots yes not potentially I mean I guess if it goes
forward it would be
impacted yeah okay and go back again to the 68 public
parking spaces that are
currently now on that lot if people go into Vortman's they
come through
Bortman's you know do their thing at Bortman come over grab
a cup of coffee
and go back out they know they had a place to park at Fort
man's so I you know
when I when I walked that and got to looking at it it was a
concern sure and
and just as I as I continue my train of thought in this the
majority of your
business is morning coffee drinkers in the morning or in
the afternoon is there
also issues yeah there's issues at both times because as
the people are coming
in and out just like with the traffic the the highest peak
is between 9 and 11 in
the morning that's when the most number of people come
through the shop it goes
up again between 3 and 4 in the afternoon okay so if you do
a traffic
study you may be missing I mean you may be thinking about
when people go in and
out to work but not when they go in and out to class sure
now that makes sense
thank you I don't see any other questions thank you very
much thank you
next speaker will be Anderson many Mary Mary followed by K
ale Ward Mary Anderson
924 West Oak the Morris's and I moved in the same time on
West Oak we were
attracted to the area because of its historic character the
charm the low-rise
buildings we were promised much on the Frey Street
development but I want to
thank Ron for doing a good job I'd like to thank you for
asking very nice
questions they've been very eye-opening I've been to some
of these community
meetings frankly they're nothing but the same old
presentation over and over again
I believe I believe I believe today was the first day I saw
data about parking
January 6 2016 Dean does anybody know when classes are in
UNT and TWU not
January 6th the parking statistics they believe ask for the
data it's not there
it's a belief they already told us 33 North was very it
wasn't very used they
didn't December well that's fine everybody had already left
after exams
you need to run the parking when people are actually going
to school there's so
many things wrong with this plan and I know that most of
you identified with
them it's an SRO project shouldn't we stop and think about
this do you know
how many other apartments are planned in this area I'm sure
you do there's the
scripture one we'll see you then right all these other
apartments the one right
next to where they're talking about parking have you
noticed there's not
many people parking there not many of those apartments are
rented what do you
think is gonna happen next another one that's gonna seek
the same variants as
they've gotten this is crazy that's a traffic issue the
real issue is the
character of their neighborhood is going down I really don
't like thinking in my
home being the buffer I live in a historic district and
they said mr. King
said that UNT had eight nine story buildings yes on the
west side of campus
nowhere near where they're planning to build in fact the
best place is what Kim
said was someplace else either match the restrictions that
are given or move on
to the other side of campus where the heights are higher
closer to 35 the
term is starting to go downhill and I just spent a lot of
money renovating my
house and pretty much I'm pretty sad to see all the
development it's these guys
and it'll be their next plan down the street and you know
they pride themselves
on the architecture that matches the neighborhood I don't
know any of those
that look like a historic neighborhood what about you not
one they don't care
nothing's coming into this neighborhood they're only gonna
raise the value of my
property because they're going to put on a big building and
then claim student
discounts on rents we need more family oriented things we
need to have growth
elsewhere not just here we don't need something that big if
they could match
the requirements but nothing has changed there are so much
wrong the part that's
too many it's too high there's not enough parking they've
taken some away
their surveys on everything are dated at the wrong time the
coverage of the land
does more than I can build on my house they want to have 70
% coverage drainage
water traffic the hospital traffic how are you gonna get to
the hospital
anymore when you put this one up and the next one up and
the next one up at any
rate I'd like to thank you all and I hope certainly hope
you go with what
planning and zoning is suggested not to approve thank you I
don't see any
questions at this time do you have a question Larry you are
ringing okay thank
you Kale Ward followed by Randy hunt
thank you I actually have some of these for you guys these
are from I'm speaking
on behalf of Brent Erskine owner and property owner of Vert
mans so would you
guys like these now or would you like me to hang them out
sure please pass them
out and then give us your name and address or if you're
representing
someone else
I sure can okay my name is Kale Ward I am speaking on
behalf of Brent Erskine
who is the property owner and business owner of Vertmans
bookstore on 1314 West
Hickory so I'm gonna begin I want to apologize for my
absence on for the
October 26 2016 meeting I hope it is not interpreted as a
lack of care or belief
in the positive impact this development would have on the
business businesses in
the Fry Street overlay I want to start by explaining our
intent by having EDR
present this project the Vertmans building is over 90 years
old and has
been added on to four times for different business models
our business
model now is much different than several of the business
models of the Vertmans
family ran in the 1920s and 1990s we are neither we're
neither as sophisticated
nor we as diversified as mr. Vertman to run a department
store however we do
well it what we do well is create college stores with books
apparel and
our supplies since we understand who we are and who we are
not we know we need
to cut down on the 2000 or 24,000 plus square feet we
operate Vertmans out of
to become more efficient we can do this one of two ways
subdivide our building
adding more businesses to the area or sell to a student
living company since
the new development down the road has empty businesses
business space for a
lease we believe selling to a unit to a student living
company is better for the
Fry Street area EDR will add businesses or add business to
the area instead of
businesses create a new better looking space for our retail
business which we
will own and allow us to make sure the Vertmans name
continues on as a store
business in this community outside of the positive impact
this will have on my
business I believe there are many reasons this project
should be approved
increase in property tax for the city increase in city
municipalities income
for trash to electricity and clean up several older
buildings in the overlay I
understand that these older buildings are mine however they
need to major
updating and there is no better way than to do that than to
add more year-round
customers for the business businesses in the area even my
friends who own
businesses with zero parking will benefit from this however
there are two
main reasons I would like to look at in detail next page
with the increase in
enrollment at the University of North Texas there needs to
be a serious
consideration for zoning changes and the increase in
revenue for small locally
owned businesses when the Fry Street overlay was created in
1999 the
University of North Texas had approximately 27,000 students
in the
fall of 2000 now this same university has 37 over 37,000
students in the fall
of 2015 that is a 37.4 percent increase in the student
population yet EDR is
only asking for 25 percent increase in the number of
stories think about this
the tentative date this project will open would be fall
2018 and the income
the incoming freshmen were not even born when the city
created this overlay as the
time goes time goes on buildings get old and they are
replaced with new buildings
that make that makes sense economically in the space and
fit the surrounding
buildings but the youth center at fry being 225 feet away
having a similar
configuration and the prevalent height of our proposed
building is two feet
taller than the parking deck at youth center suggests that
our part that our
project would fit perfectly in the environment from the
standpoint of height
the language auditorium and chemistry buildings across the
street are also
close in comparison these buildings are large enough that
our proposed building
would appropriately match the environment I understand that
there is a
parking issue at UNT like there is every other major
university my suggestion is
that even if EDR adds another 30 spaces again there will
still be parking issue
at UNT we should not make the private sector responsible
for the parking issue
UNT has created it is a very hard for me to understand that
we don't believe
there is enough walking traffic for EDR not to have one one
-on-one parking when
we have more than five businesses within 300 feet that don
't have any customer
parking besides meter parking in addition to that with what
little meter
parking there is we have put bike racks and loading zones
for the owners to park
in please understand I don't have a problem with the
loading zones or bike
racks in fact we started at when we started at 103 Avenue a
and Fry Street
we paid for a loading zone and I used it to park my vehicle
the problem is this
city should have a consistent philosophy we receive a
negative recommendation from
the city and if we are honest it is for two reasons they
think it is too too tall
and there is not enough parking yet there is a building a
half a block away
that has a parking deck 60 feet tall they think there is
not enough parking
that yet we let our parking places go to loading zones and
bike racks these
loading zones are just used for business owners to park
their vehicles put bike
put bike racks bike racks business owners choice and for
the fast food
delivery employees to park their cars as a business owner
on Fry Street since
November 2017 I have seen several changes and have put
built relationships
with many of the business owners in the district all of
which are positive for
those that I have spoken with and have owned businesses
before the youth center
was built until now excluding lunch businesses have all
said their sales
have increased since the new development with EDR's
proposal adding student
housing and not adding any new businesses we are sure to
increase the
sales of all the small businesses on this street books
copies coffee beer
and food our hope is that we drop that we will drive enough
business to keep
businesses in the two new developments down the street I
hope you can see that
the apartment the apparent apparent benefit to small
business and evidence
of how the building fits in fits the environment the lack
of consistency by
the city could make a local business owner feel unsupported
as a local
business owner who has started three businesses in Denton
created over two
point five million dollars in sales tax paid several
hundred thousands in
property tax and employs over ten fold over ten full-time
20 part-time and a
hundred plus temporary people the decision by the city PNC
and City
Council could give up me pause before reinvesting more
money back into didn't I
sincerely ask that you place a small vote for small
businesses so they can
continue to grow and invest back into didn't and if there
are any questions I
will try to answer them best on his behalf okay any
questions thank you
thank you
Randy hunt to be followed by Aaron Knight
my name is Randy hunt I'm at 722 West Oak it's at the
corner of Oak and Mounts
can you raise the microphone or speak closer to thank you
sure I'm glad to be
cooperative with the people that need that request well
that's something here
it on the record too so gotcha okay so obviously I'm at 22
West Oak we've been
there since 2004 and I did go to the first meeting by these
people that were
asking for these variances and I think one of the things
that we're really
proud that we've been able to almost achieve we have a
little bit more
information to do but we're going to get a national
register district for a big
chunk of the area like from Hickory Street all the way to
panhandle from
Carroll all the way over to probably ponder Street it's
about 350 houses the
reason we're getting that is because we have a large
percentage of homes that
have not been disturbed but the major reason we're getting
that is because we
still have a cultural area that represents why that
neighborhood was
built in the first place so every time that there is some
structure coming in
that's you know like five-story building compared to
structures that have been
there for over a hundred years doesn't complement what we
're trying to do in
fact we have visited with the Texas Historic Commission
about another
proposed area from ponder Street all the way up to Avenue C
that's already been
identified as potential National Register District as well
so every time
that something comes in and starts disturbing the cultural
area it's
disruptive five stories is disruptive I have no problem
seeing you know changes
I have no problem with you know the way it's zone right now
and if people want
to come into our area the city that was built the reason
that UNT is here
and work with the neighborhood that'd be a good reason to
do that so really I
think the focus of my issue with this development is that
it's not an
apartment it's a single single-room occupancy that by
itself is not
complementary to why the district is there why are the
buildings there if I
as a family wanted to move into one of those couldn't do it
do you think that
after this you know the current buildings can be built and
some new owner
comes in well it ever be switched to apartments no I think
what we need to be
working on is apartments that will support families that
will support a
community that will support you know the reason that the
people are here we don't
need any more single occupancy rooms have a question for
you Commissioner Beck
thank you chair thank you mr. on for coming down and
speaking how long have
you been in the neighborhood we bought in 2004 okay so you
were there after
sub area a yes before sub area B the neighborhood is
evidently may get
compromised with the city and University of North Texas
allowing these bigger
buildings there that could be considered an encroachment so
what is it about this
building that all of a sudden there's not a willingness to
compromise going
forward does that is that an assumption that the
neighborhood was supporting it
well you tell me I think that's an assumption okay okay
because I think
you're a number of people that were living in the Hoke and
Hickory and other
areas that were not supportive of that five-story building
okay that's what I
wanted to hear yeah okay now we're living with it but just
because we lived
with one doesn't mean we want to live with two and the
biggest threat is that
there's a proposal for a five-story single occupancy room
and sro on
scripture Street and that's just offensive because so
anyway okay if we
were at three stories the way it's owned right now I wouldn
't I would I create a
compromise you could live with it I can live with that and
I understand that the
compromise may have been done so reluctantly I do but that
seems to be
the sense here and that what I'm hearing from most people
so far is that the
envelopes are being pushed and it puts us in kind of a
slippery slope situation
would that be a fair assessment by if we built a five-story
building there I'm
sorry I don't know if I got your question okay there's a
sense that the
envelope is being pushed now we've already allowed a three
and a four story
building there allowed a five-story is this a slippery
slope situation in your
opinion it really is because you know in the way that I
count the stories on the
on the building is there is this you know maybe we go back
and look at it or
maybe I need to go back and look at it but it looks like it
's more of a four
story and not a five story so every time that there's a
variance that's just
offensive you know it's zoned for a reason and it's zoned
because there's a
whole bunch of neighborhoods that are right around the
university why should
we be willing to compromise on neighborhoods to accommodate
businesses
who want to make a profit okay thank you very much one more
question
Commissioner has with thank you thank you for your comments
I'm gonna try to be
succinct so help me help me quantify the bad experiences
with the sterling or the
current new developments there what what experiences have
you had that that have
left you with a negative impression are you familiar with
the Evers house is the
is the big yes to story on the corner yes sir so one of the
comments was you
know where students are packed into those rooms so they
hang out on the
balconies and you know some take sport with what can they
throw but there are a
number of conversations that are not g-rated sure and so
there's just a lot
of impact when you have that many you know people that are
geared towards
students because they're SRO is only that you know wouldn't
be those same
kind of problems if they were actually family units one
would hope but if you're
trying so let's let's narrow it down let's say I mean
because I have two
twenty-year-olds right there dynamically different than
when they lived at my
house right I mean it's life just as a way if they figure
it out I hope I'll get
back to you but but my point is I don't want to hold this
development to what
college kids right I mean there's just it's in the news
every day college kids
do this there you know there's athletes that make poor
decisions at that age bad
decisions are made I don't want to hold this development to
that I don't hold
sterling to that my my point is and I'm curious to get your
insight do you think
the fact that they do have a monopoly on that type
development in that area
emboldens them so if you're trying if you're trying to get
a point across to
sterling and they know they have a monopoly and the
neighborhood comes out
against anybody else that would challenge their area their
business
model maybe maybe these people do great work I've never
released for them I'm
not trying to represent that to you but I am trying to
represent that there's
something to be said for competition and the fact that hey
we're losing students
and we've got to be better about it to to get our rooms
back full is there does
that resonate I just want to get your thoughts on that
doesn't resonate okay
let me give you a different scenario absolutely let's talk
about real
competition okay you know let's talk about if I'm looking
for a place to rent
why would I want to be packed in to a five-story structure
as if I could get
to a three-story structure which probably would be a little
less noisy and maybe
is not so dominated by students can I answer sure okay so
now you reflect back
right so even within the past year so technology has jumped
so now let's say
they can offer Apple TV I can tell you now every plug on a
planet has USB
connections which they didn't before and so there's there's
flat screens there's
4k TVs there's a myriad of technical reasons for a college
kid that's gonna
sit in his dorm room and play games watch TV and do
homework that you could have
add a whole bunch of amenities a whole bunch of new
furniture a whole bunch of
new stuff that would motivate me to want to live in that
place versus someplace
else is three stories that's been there a while that may
not have USB
connections may not have electric reclining couches you
know I mean it's
just so yes technology I think again having to 220 year
olds that understands
there's just been a lot happen that would motivate that
change sure so I have
to 20 years old as well great minds think alike yeah
sometimes it gets
challenging yes but here's here's the real question sure do
we respect our own
city right do we respect the culture that brought everyone
here do we respect
that there's a historic area that was worth preserving I
think so that's what
the question is sure and if we're going to complement why
people are here in our
town part of it is that we have a cultural area that's fun
to be in we
really need to be thinking beyond as to fry street area we
need to be thinking
about a cultural zone area that might follow the original
city limits let's
say that were the city limits a hundred years ago sure and
let's celebrate that
together let's not destroy what we have by putting more and
more and more high
rises around here perfect thank you thank you I see no
other questions Aaron
Knight to be followed by Anna petchening
my name is Aaron Knight I am the general manager of vermin
and I was
originally here to speak on behalf of Brent and answer any
questions that you
might have had that kill couldn't answer okay we have any
additional questions
for represent Commissioner Rizal thank you chair there's
been a lot of mention
about your parking spaces in particular can you confirm
that you use the 36
across the street we do not actually that is something I
wanted to clear up
those are all rented to students actually on a per semester
basis the
employees for vertman's park in the same parking lot as the
customers and as the
employees of other businesses in the area perfect this
might be outside of
your purview but who is renting to those students is it the
owner of the
property is the property not a vortman's vertman's doesn't
have any affiliation
with that lot Brent is the owner of the business and the
property and the other
lot yes yes as part of the perfect and then has there been
any discussions
about other businesses continuing to rent potential future
parking spaces that
this development will be building that I do not know okay
that's it thanks thank
you thank you the last card I have wishing to speak on this
item is going
to be Anna pitching me and if there's anyone else that
would like to speak
please fill out a card and get that to us up front and then
we do have a couple
other cards not wishing to speak but this will be our last
card that we have
wishing to speak hi if you don't mind I took notes so I
wanted to could you give
us your name and address yes my name is Anna Pichinina I
live on Fry Street 224
Fry Street I do not own anything I don't own a property I
rent I cannot afford to
buy a house with this development the prices are going to
go up higher I will
not be able to afford a house in this area ever I've been
taking notes I agree
with most of the people that are speaking against this
development there
are several reasons why first of all market somebody said
market is telling
them that the parking spots are not being used therefore
they need to have
fewer well rec local residents may not use the parking
spots in sterling
therefore their garages could be utilized by people that
are using both
businesses they cannot because we're not allowed in there
and from the previous
meeting earlier in this year somebody mentioned that
actually there was a talk
about sterling development allowing residents parking in
the sterling
development and yet they were not afterwards another point
being the
parking is terrible all the way to the scripture you can
see cars there any
time of the day I leave for work at 750 because I am lucky
I get to work on
campus and I had the traffic so 750 this is when the
traffic starts it's really it
takes me 10 minutes instead of five normally another thing
that nobody
really talked about is the sunlight access because on the
street Oak Street
currently the sterling development is so high that the road
next to it freezes
in the wintertime and does not go out everything else does
but that road does
not like and that it just means that most of the day that
area gets no
sunlight whatsoever so if we build another development that
's this tall
it's going to impact the houses directly behind it because
the road is not that
far I mean it's not that white so we're not gaining
additional shopping places
or businesses we also practically have a food desert and by
food desert I mean
that there is no grocery stores that you can get food from
in a walking distance
of campus you can go to get macaroni and cheese and chips
and fries and burgers
and beer and some you know sandwiches from CVS but you're
not going to get
fresh produce organic produce you have to take a car
another which which is
responsible students we have a lot of responsible students
at UNT I'm a student
at UNT and a full-time employee at UNT as well they will
try to get food access
to that food and they will drive they will use their
vehicles so even though
you're trying to minimize the amount of traffic these
people will still need to
get around and I don't know anyone who wants to go and
carry sacks of food on
the bus or on a bicycle I mean I've seen people do it it's
just not convenient
speaking of bicycles roads are in terrible condition
bicycles are riding
everywhere if they don't have a lane they go on a sidewalk
they run over
people and the cars don't respect they don't respect the
people riding bicycles
I myself own a bicycle I'm afraid to ride the roads on that
bicycle so saying
that people on bicycles will be living in this building is
also a little bit
funny to me I need an additional point I wanted to make is
that we do need
community spaces currently we are building so many
developments around the
area there is no additional parks and there is no community
gardens or anything
like that so there is actually more and more people but
fewer and fewer places
for these people to socialize in a free manner say it
because right now if you
want to socialize you go to bars and pay money to
participate in that and
another distinction I wanted to make in terms of business
this is business that's
not locally grown these are people coming from outside of
town telling us
how it is in the real world and what it should be and based
on their research
it's going to be great but we also have local business
representatives that are
telling you well what workmen's telling you that they want
this but other people
are telling you that they don't because obviously they have
their own reasons
and this development is going to be hurting them thank you
very much
right thank you again this is a public hearing anyone who
would like to speak
please come forward at this time you can hand it right here
over the top yes sir
next I'm Jay West and I'll start off by saying I'm your
address 2606 Shelby
Avenue in Dallas okay I represent the developer I'm as a
consultant to the
developer so I'll start by saying that I really just wanted
to address one thing
that Commissioner Roselle asked about whether the business
of Vortmans was
renting any of their parking spaces or the new project
would be able to rent
parking spaces to other businesses and I think the answer
is no that they would
not because they're providing what the code requires within
the garage 31
spaces in the garage which a lot you know a lot of retail
spaces very
convenient out of the weather but there are there is a
place in the Fry Street
area and I don't know if any of other others have noticed
it where there's a
lot of unused parking I might go out on the limb a little
bit but it is within
the youth center Fry Street building they put in a lot of
retail parking but
if you go if you go over there and park to visit their
facility you'll park in
their little garage area their employees park there then if
you weave your way
around you come to this very large retail spot and I think
at one point they
intended it for it to be metered but basically it's just
empty because no one
knows it's there because the access is so circuitous but it
's probably it might
be possible now I'm not going to say who's nickel this
should be on but at
the city for instance wanted to go to you Center Fry Street
and say how about
we pay to create a better access for these parking spaces
and then you can
get the revenue from it when students or when patrons of
those businesses up and
down the street want to use their parking spaces if you
provide better
access and better signage there's probably 40 parking
spaces in there that
go unused on a regular basis so that's that's all I had to
say okay just
yes I've got a question for you sir okay Commissioner Hesb
eth so I'm trying to
pull up you the the lot you're referencing so orient me
again well it's
within you Center of Fry Street's building it's not the
building that we're
discussing tonight building was built in 2010 they have I
don't have a you know
that there's a they have a building that's a long fry
street that runs from
fried hickory then there's an open space which is a drive-
through area yes a cell
tower in that area yes and on the one side of that open
space is the five
story parking structure yes within that parking structure
on the first level and
actually it goes down below grade slightly there is some
parking that's
hidden in there that's designed for retail students don't
park in it and
it's empty I've been I've driven in there myself it's very
difficult to find
it's very difficult to get to and it's blocked for view
from the street because
they have a little retail space there which they've had
difficulty leasing on
a regular basis since they've had a number of tenants that
have failed so if
the city this is just I'm just trying to think out of the
box the city were to go
to them and say you know what what would it cost to get rid
of this little retail
space and create a driveway to allow parking access in and
out to access this
lot if we paid for it would you be willing to do it because
it probably
would be happy to do it because I'll make money you might
even negotiate with
them and get them to pay some of the cost but you'd have to
give them the
permission to get rid of one retail space that they're they
've had difficulty
leasing anyway on a regular basis sure it's right across
the street from
Lucky Looz I'm with you where Lucky Looz is yes sir pretty
much right across the
street from Lucky Looz okay thank you okay this is a public
hearing so anyone
who would like to come forward and speak on this item
please do so at this time
I'm Patrice like I live at 1109 Egan and I put in a card
that was a yes a
non-speaking card but I got to speak okay okay so like I
said I live at 1109
Egan which I'm an 11-minute walk from my office I teach at
UNT my office is in
the auditorium building which will be then is right across
from Vertmans one
thing I think we have to remember while we're thinking
about anything that is
going to change the current fry Street small area plan is
that it is surrounded
by neighborhoods you've got the West Oak historic district
you've got Oak Hickory
and then you have my bungalow neighborhood that is behind
that now my
neighborhood is going to be part of the National Registry
and it's also has been
eligible to be a conservation or historic district for a
number of years
we just keep not doing it that's all I have to say about
that however with the
more that development goes outside the boundaries that are
already in place
like false small area plans the more we whittle away at the
integrity of these
historical neighborhoods my concern is of course for
precedent being set that
when I one developer comes in and of course when we do give
a variance to one
developer we're not giving that a variance to a developer
who then has
pinky sworn with us to only do what they say they're going
to do that developer
can turn around sell it to anybody else and any type of
verbal agreements we
feel like we're getting from those developers are just
completely out the
window every SRO builder in Denton since I have been paying
attention it has
built and sold every developer has said we are a build and
hold company I live
three houses away from the City Park and when the rail
family came in 15 years
ago maybe to develop that SRO what what used to be the flow
hospital site they
said we're building hold we will be here forever you want
to call us if we have
any problems within a couple of years they were gone what
the sterling
development is at fry Street currently the dinner steam
people came through
and they said we're building hold we will do anything you
say they're now you
center they've been sold so it's a myth when a developer
says oh we're going to
be here we're the ones who you're going to talk to for the
next 50 to 100 years
so I think we should take that into consideration that we
can like what
they're saying about where they're going to put their plan
ters but it doesn't
matter in the long run because they can sell it to somebody
's going to do
whatever they want with those planters this might be false
free fry Street
small-area plan is built to protect the fry Street area it
is built to protect
the neighborhoods that are surrounding this fry Street area
you know the city
of Denton is not in the business of having to provide
collegiate housing the
University of North Texas still has space and they are
extending their
boundaries they're squaring off a little bit I've seen some
of the master plan
they're squaring off some of their boundaries to the east
and yeah to the
east and of course to the south they have room if they want
to provide housing
but it's not our job as a city to provide housing for
college students
remembering that I teach at UNT and I like my students but
it's not our job
and secondly if a developer comes in and creates a parking
mass or a street
mess a traffic mess then it's not Denton's responsibility
to go clean up
after developers who are creating more traffic that should
all of that is the
should be on the onus of a developer who is following the
rules of the fry Street
small-area plan as handed down by the Denton Development
Code so that's all I
have to say about that thank you very much okay I have one
card from Laurie
Weller at 2297 Wood Hollow Road here in Denton and she did
not want to wish I
did not wish to speak and she is in opposition to the fry
Street overlay I
have another card from Jennifer Lane at 1526 Willowood
Street she does not wish
to speak and she is in opposition I have a card from
Kathleen Barnett at 607
Pearl Street she is in opposition card from William Barnett
at 607 Pearl Street
he is in opposition and then we had one other letter from
Michael Martin at
2909 Seabright Court in League City Texas and he is opposed
doesn't wish to speak
okay and then have one other card from Aaron Piper at 1006
West Hickory and she
is in opposition as well those are all the cards that we
have this is a public
hearing so anyone else that would like to come forward and
speak please come do
so at this time if you're going to speak only to come to
the microphone and I
think you've already spoke so we have a rule that you don't
have one opportunity
to speak unless someone would like to ask you a question
and it looks like
Commissioner Beck wants to ask you a question there's
something you forgot to
tell us earlier I did receive one of the 500 foot cards I
did not reply to that
so my reply was not one of the four that you had because I
knew I was going to be
here in person okay okay great thank you again this is a
public hearing this will
be our last call anyone else that would like to speak
please come forward at this
time seeing none I'm going to close the public hearing on
this item and open the
floor for discussion I just need to make we do have an
announcement as well from
staff thank you I just need to make some clarifications for
the record the
councilmember that did recuse himself is mr. errs mr. Steve
Sullivan and I need
to briefly state the reason for his request and that was
because his wife
did have a conflict she had an interest in the business of
the seller of the
property so he has recused himself in this case that leaves
us five members
because we do have mr. Devin Taylor out because of that we
have a rule in the
the City Council rules of procedures seven point five five
that requires an
affirmative vote of four members in order to pass an item
so this is going
to take four out of the five members present here tonight
in order to pass
this thank you okay Commissioner Beck thank you chair I
have a comment then
I'd like to make a motion but I'll hold off on my motion if
other people want
to make comments too so I want to thank everybody for
coming down and I
appreciate your input and that goes for EDR as well what we
've heard from EDR
and the people who support it is not surprising and I agree
with it totally
there's there's a need for student housing they build an
excellent product
and I'd love to see them build here and didn't there's no
question about that and
I hope they do but not at this spot and there's a reason
for that and I think
the people of the neighborhood have adequately stated that
that it
diminishes what all of us have enjoyed for years the
historical area has a lot
of significance not just for the people who live there but
for the people who
live in them I've been here since the early 70s and I've
watched this
encroachment take place so I realized that we all
understand that the city's
going to grow and we've got to make changes and I think the
residents of
that area have done that I think they've compromised they
've allowed sub area a
and sub area B and and for sub area C to come in and just
keep building it
bigger the last speaker you know made the good point that
nothing's ever
permanent it is a slippery slope for me and I think for
everybody else there so
again nothing against EDR again great company hope they do
build here but I
have to oppose it so my motion is that we deny request for
this okay so we have
a motion on the floor for denial commissioner Ellis I'll
second that
motion okay we have a first and a second okay we have a
first and second any
discussion commissioner Hudson yes so by the indication of
the first and second
this is all just conjecture so but my thought is looking
back four people came
back from from the January meeting there was four people
that were against that
returned and then there's another handful of new people
that were against
and so and I was the wolf pack of one on the first trip and
so I I think
understanding respecting the neighborhoods request is I'm
trying to
balance that with I don't know that it fixes what we're
trying to do and I think
it also is a little short-sighted because what if they just
decide to get under the
threshold and you've lost your ability to curtail what goes
there right and so
it's like it's almost like I wish there was a way me
personally just to go meet
with the neighborhood and say there's got to be a medium
ground where you can
at least have a say so and what goes there because if they
're if they're sold
out on building there then you're absolutely going to have
zero say so
you're gonna you're gonna have this document and this that
was everything I
can find says that this overlay was created in 2010 and
they're gonna get
under that threshold and and you and so you don't have an
opportunity to
modernize that document and curtail it to something you
want your and so that's
my concern for the neighborhood is the you know this is
twice and so at some
point there's going to be a meeting someplace and they're
going to say hey
we'll just do this and so now they don't have to come
before us and you you don't
get a chance to to have a neighborhood meeting have a
neighborhood say so and
that's my concern for the neighbors I want them to have an
ability to partake
and be a part of the process but you the developer is in a
corner where they're
either going to decide hey we're going to move on or we'll
get under threshold
and now you have this monster building anyway and you have
no say so and your
pipes are rattled and everything and and and so I don't I
don't know of a way
around it I mean I wish him the best and I agree with the
Commissioner Beck it's
great project I disagree with him in that I think it doesn
't this project not
being there doesn't fix the traffic it doesn't fix the road
it doesn't ignore
the fact that Eagle Drive one of the major thoroughfares
that you and T just
redid they took away a lane so what's the real it was two
lanes each side now
it's one lane in a center median and so that that adds to
the problem on oak
with Bonnie Bray being expanded that's going to add to the
problem with oak
razor-rance developing and the convention center going on
board adds to
the problem and so I think there's a lot of stuff going
down the road that
that you will wish you had a say so in the project versus
they build it by
right but you have to put purse I'll put personal feelings
aside and and and
there's just too many people that have spoken against it to
kind of ignore it a
second time I did that first time so thank you
Commissioner Roselle thank you chair so when I was here in
January and I listened
to the presentation and I did vote to not approve then with
great expectation
and hope that EDR would come back with just a no-brainer we
can get this
through because it seems like there is a track record there
is a history to the
company and like Commissioner Beck said their product is of
high quality from
what I can tell and I feel like their history is a
testament that they might
not be so inclined as to flip the property they haven't
done that in their
in their past and so I really wanted this project to come
forward to to us
with just some strength and clarity and to be honest I didn
't see either to have
the same narrative resubmitted to us nine months later is a
little concerning
that it wasn't even changed to show the changes that was
made to us and it
increased the ambiguity of what was trying to be achieved
here and so I'm
disappointed in that the parking spaces as I mentioned
earlier seem to be
completely all over the place I still I I feel maybe
confident there was 260
parking spaces but there's so many different documents that
have different
numbers I have concerns with that so in terms of of the the
the proposal we got
forth tonight not to discredit any work that's put forth of
the money involved
it just seemed a little haphazard and it doesn't instill a
lot of confidence for
the project going forward considering some of the discrep
ancies that we've
seen throughout the presentation and some of the concerns
brought up I do
agree with the Commissioner Hudspeth in terms of traffic
unfortunately for
residents of Oak that streets is getting worse I wish they
'd redo Hickory that
that traffic and they can like Hickory's is a terrible
street to drive on period
but Oak is going to get worse it's going to increase
traffic if this project
goes forward or it doesn't or it ever goes forward on this
piece of property
razor ranch is still going to hope oak is the natural incl
ination from Carroll
or downtown to get to raise a ranch and so there's most
likely probably gonna
be a bike lane if there's gonna be issues with oak going
forward and so I
hope individuals who live on oak or in that area know that
that's kind of an
evil coming and and us not moving this forward potentially
tonight doesn't
solve that issue unfortunately oak is developed to be a
secondary artery it's
meant to take people from Carroll West to Bonnie Braids it
's kind of the natural
progression I used to live on Egan and so I know very well
the neighborhood
and in the character of it and oak is what it is and again
to Commissioner
Hudspeth's point I feel like when when a company or project
comes to us asking
for things it gives the position of power to the city to to
ask for things
in return and so to what I believe was his point is if they
just meet
everything to code then by right they can build whatever
they want and so I
wish there's an opportunity where they were coming and
asking for things that
we could have had a dialogue to find a compromise because
we saw this with
Buc-E's we tried to interact with Buc-E's to agree on
something nothing
ever happened they built by right and the city lost some
opportunities I feel
to ask for things from that development because they just
built by right and so
that's a legitimate worry here is some other developer come
in see the the
ordinances and just build and we won't have any say in it
we won't be able to
ask anything and so I guess it goes back to my first point
I just wish it was
stronger when it came that we could say yes this this is
good for the
development this is good for the the city area but I just
didn't see it
tonight and so those are my thoughts I like Commissioner
Beck said I hope EDR
builds in Denton I just don't know if this is the property
or the project
that's gonna happen Commissioner Ellis thank you chair just
wanted to say a
couple words since I haven't said much thank you all for
sharing your thoughts
and and that's everybody for or against this development I
guess I just to give
my reasoning for denial is sub area a I believe was put in
place for a reason
this is a special part of Denton and I think it was put in
place to try to keep
some of that specialness about that corner sub area B was
approved I was not
on the Commission when it was approved now this is sub C
that's asking for
even more than B did with regard to what sub a already has
in place which was put
in place again to keep the area special this opens up the
door if this is
approved a little bit more for sub area D and E and F etc
and you know the
project is great you know to again echo sentiments already
given it looks like a
wonderful development for student housing it's just being
proposed in the
wrong location Commissioner back thank you chair just a
couple of statements
and again both Commissioner Roselle and Husper the correct
you know oak is
invariably gonna you know pick up traffic that's unavoid
able but I think an EDR
can't control the traffic they can't control student
activity but by default
just the fact that they're building there it's gonna
enhance these and by
not building it maybe we've got a little time here to work
out traffic
situations I think Bonnie Bray actually will help people
work around these
residential streets can't say that for sure but I think
that's a positive
aspect of that so thank you I'll throw a couple of comments
I think before we
run closes for a vote understand the complexity of this
particular area I
guess one of the things that strikes me considerably is
that the the main
property owner apartments is in support of this project
they're looking to
they've been there since early 20s and it's almost 100
years and looking to
continue to stay in business and you know when you look at
the time frame of
when this overlay was originally put in place it was done
in 2000 and then it
was updated in 2010 which is essentially 15 years ago it's
essentially a zoning
case and this body this Commission here zoning cases all
over our city and we
have many groups that come before us that have very deep
concerns about
properties surrounding them and what property owners are
wanting to do with
their property and wanting to have their properties rezoned
and most of those are
very similar to this case which is a up zoning which is
going from an NR 2 to an
NR 3 or in our 2 to NR 4 in our 4 to NR 6 that's because
there is going to be
more and more density in our city that is part of our 2030
plan is to have
greater density it's to have density inside the loop and
with that that's
essentially where these projects in my opinion are going to
continue to come
before this Commission and our city is going to have to
deal with them is
because there is going to be greater density here our city
is growing the
university is growing when you look at the student growth
of North Texas of
27,000 in 2000 to now 37,000 that is a huge increase and
not only is it just
students but it is staff at the university to support them
and all the
other things that go into that and that is just the reality
that we're faced
with and being right across the street from the university
versus in other
areas and all of the other transportation issues that come
place of
if this is built six blocks away from the university or
half a mile away from
the university and all these students in half to get from
where they live to the
university the traffic issues that the university is going
to deal with are
going to be significantly more than them walking across the
street and going to
campus so I may be the lone wolf this evening who will pack
that you know I
understand that there's a hesitation for a change that
things want neighbors want
to see things stay the same but this is a commercial area
it is right across the
street from North Texas the traffic there has more to do
with the number of
students that go to the university that in my opinion what
are going to be
coming for this particular project so I'm not going to vote
this evening on
the motion as far as to firm I'll be against the denial
because I think this
project long term or another project behind it to
Commissioner Hudspeth point
will change a couple of feet and then there will be no say
and it will be
built and that will be the end of it and those things may
that may just be what
happens on this particular piece of property I do want to
echo all of my
fellow commissioners I appreciate everybody who has come
out time and time
and time again on this particular issue it takes a lot of
time to do that it
takes a lot of time to study the issue go to the
neighborhood meetings and I
appreciate you coming out this evening to share your voice
and so with that if
there's not anyone else to speak I'm going to call for a
vote on this issue
seeing that we will call for a vote on the board and the
motion before us and
we have a first and a second for denial
do we need to do by hand or you got it okay that we may be
having some
technical difficulties clarification so if we vote for it
go ahead if we vote
for this we're voting for the approval of the denial
correct about four is a
vote for denial no would be against denial right okay
please vote on the
board
motion for to denial carries four to one that will take us
to our final thank you
everyone for coming out again
Commissioner Sullivan if you're out in the foyer watching
online please come
back to join us or we'll send somebody to come get you here
is you're good come
in come join us
all right that will move us to our final item this evening
which is going to be
our project matrix and concluding items Commissioner Roz
elle thank you first I
just want to thank staff for getting minutes to us quickly
I know we talked
about that like nine months ago how there was a delay it's
really easy for me
to think back this is what I said last meeting and confirm
and so I just wanted
to publicly thank you all for getting the minutes to us
timely much appreciated
and and I will probably give the the balance my time to the
chair on this but
I do want to advocate first off some sort of reevaluation
for having them pay
$25,000 for a road that the city is requiring I don't know
how to put that
into place to review but that's yeah the ESA the mobility
plan going through ESA
and having the developer foot that bill that's mind-bogg
ling to me so I'd love
to see that discussion go further
anybody else do we have the I may have missed it on the
matrix on where things
yep I'll catch it on my own time sorry thank you
Commissioner Rozelle I will
take that balance of time and I would like to see added to
our matrix the
point that I addressed in our work session about staff
which I think is
already on the agenda to take a look at this ESA mitigation
on things that are
required for either mobility plan or utility improvements
there may be even
some other areas that staff would have some more insight
than I would that
these things come up and to Commissioner Rozelle's point
and my point of asking
to quantify it some of these things are not only very
expensive in dollars but
also the amount of land that is lost for a developer to
develop their projects on
top of the fact that they're already putting in roads and
infrastructure that
the city is has drawn on a map and so this needs to go here
so I think it does
add to a significant cost burden and I appreciate staff
being willing to take a
look at that and bring that back to us so with that I'm
going to close our
meeting at 903 thank you everyone