WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.490 Welcome you to the City of Denton planning and zoning work 00:00:03.490 --> 00:00:04.960 session. 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:07.410 This meeting's been duly posted and we have a quorum 00:00:07.410 --> 00:00:10.519 present and I call our meeting to order. 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:13.429 At this time, our first item of business is going to be 00:00:13.429 --> 00:00:15.560 clarification of agenda items and 00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:17.640 I will turn that over to Ron for presentation. 00:00:19.399 --> 00:00:21.039 >> Thank you, Chair. 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:24.309 This is an opportunity for the commission to ask questions 00:00:24.309 --> 00:00:25.160 on the plat. 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:27.839 I don't know if we have a presentation for the plat. 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:31.000 If you have any questions, we can certainly address them. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:33.479 The other item is the public hearing item and 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:38.240 that is being requested to be continued to date certain. 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:42.240 So again, I don't know if we, I don't believe we have a 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:44.079 presentation prepared for that. 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:44.579 >> Okay. 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:49.600 Okay, well then I'll move to our second item which is going 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:52.320 to be our work session reports. 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:55.119 And, sorry. 00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:55.679 >> No, it's good. 00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:57.439 Is this- >> Commissioner Rossell. 00:00:57.439 --> 00:00:58.200 >> Thank you. 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:00.600 Is this the opportunity to talk about the consent agenda 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:01.079 items? 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:02.359 >> Yes. 00:01:02.359 --> 00:01:06.450 >> Yes, if you have any- >> Yeah, can I delay the other 00:01:06.450 --> 00:01:06.879 stuff for 00:01:06.879 --> 00:01:11.079 a second and talk about PP 1521? 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:17.359 The plat for Beaver Creek edition? 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:17.859 >> Sure. 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:27.349 So I have a couple questions of clarification just maybe to 00:01:27.349 --> 00:01:28.439 enlighten my ignorance. 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:33.840 But also I have maybe some, not concerns obviously if it's 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:34.159 happening, 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:39.599 but maybe to express some thoughts I had about this. 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:45.319 So first on the, I'm going to get my directions mixed up, 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:45.480 but 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:48.609 on the plat on the bottom right, which I guess is the 00:01:48.609 --> 00:01:50.000 northeast corner. 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:54.760 That road doesn't have a curb cut. 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:57.540 What's happening at the termination of that road into 00:01:57.540 --> 00:01:58.200 Stewart? 00:01:58.200 --> 00:01:58.719 >> Right here? 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:00.680 >> No, opposite corner. 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:04.239 Down, all the way, right there. 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:05.000 >> Right here? 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:05.500 >> Yeah. 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:07.519 What's happening to that road? 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:13.039 Yeah, is it just, it's not entering into Stewart. 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:14.199 Is there a gate there? 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:15.960 Usually there's like a cul-de-sac and then a fence or 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:16.479 something. 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:20.639 >> Let's rotate it. 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:27.560 Hold on. 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:29.800 >> This way's north. 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:30.560 >> The other way. 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:31.560 >> This way. 00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:32.560 >> Upside down. 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:34.560 >> Am I upside down? 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:35.080 Yes, I am. 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:35.800 >> Yeah, you're upside down. 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:40.560 >> Yeah, that's oriented, right? 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:44.680 >> This road right here? 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:45.199 >> Yeah. 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:48.000 >> It's tying into Stewart? 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:50.419 >> There is a Stewart Road pavement along at that 00:02:50.419 --> 00:02:51.400 intersection and 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:54.219 they are actually improving Stewart Road along their entire 00:02:54.219 --> 00:02:54.879 frontage. 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:55.360 >> Okay. 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:57.159 >> And they're tying that street to the. 00:02:57.159 --> 00:02:58.639 >> Into Stewart. 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:02.629 Because the other entrances to the south actually have like 00:03:02.629 --> 00:03:03.400 curve, 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:06.159 looks like more cutouts. 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:08.080 You see the design of those two into Stewart? 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:11.479 Those look different than the one to the north. 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:14.240 Is there a reason that those look significantly different? 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:21.039 >> Okay, it looks like it was a minor oversight. 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:23.879 But the final plot, the final plot is in and they will have 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:24.639 those curb cuts. 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:26.919 >> So it will kind of branch out. 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:27.879 And thank you. 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:31.080 And then on the west, there's two cul-de-sacs that aren't 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:32.960 on the actual property. 00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:33.479 How does that work? 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:36.800 >> They'll have to obtain easements. 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:42.360 >> And is that a foregone conclusion that they'll obtain 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:43.280 easements or 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:44.919 what's the process of doing that? 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:47.800 >> We won't approve the final plot unless those easements 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:50.400 are in place. 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:52.659 Otherwise, if they can't get the easements, we'll have to 00:03:52.659 --> 00:03:54.439 alter the design of the plot. 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:56.639 >> Okay, perfect. 00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:00.000 And then the last question I have, and this kind of goes 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.719 into a larger road impact 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:05.689 fee conversation, so maybe this is just a process of me 00:04:05.689 --> 00:04:06.919 understanding it. 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:09.360 If I understand this correctly, the road impact fees 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:10.400 assessed under current 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:14.159 regulation will only apply to phase 1A. 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:15.400 Is that correct? 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:22.399 >> So it's broken into phase 1A, phase 1B, phase 2, phase 3 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:22.600 . 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:33.959 >> When the roadway impact fees are adopted, 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:38.660 the roadway impact fees will be assessed during the 00:04:38.660 --> 00:04:39.160 building permit for 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:42.000 those laws as they apply for building permits. 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:43.720 >> But just only phase 1A, right? 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:44.480 >> Yes, just for phase 1A. 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.519 >> Because the new road impact fee would actually, 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:51.959 the impact wouldn't be the entire plat per rooftop. 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:54.279 Am I understanding that correct in terms of the proposed 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:54.759 change? 00:04:57.360 --> 00:04:59.279 >> The roadway impact fees will be assessed by single 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:01.319 family equivalent. 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:07.079 So it'll be consistent as each phase comes along. 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:09.720 Say it's $3,000 per lot. 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:13.810 Phase 1A will be charged $3,000 as they pull their building 00:05:13.810 --> 00:05:14.199 permit. 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:17.250 And then when phase 1B comes in, they'll be assessed the 00:05:17.250 --> 00:05:17.959 same fee. 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:20.120 >> That's under the new regulations, right? 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:23.370 The current regulations would only apply to that first 00:05:23.370 --> 00:05:24.000 phase. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:26.560 >> The new regulations that's in process right now. 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:28.459 >> But would this be under the old regulations if we 00:05:28.459 --> 00:05:29.399 approve it tonight? 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:33.209 >> This would be under the old regulations because I 00:05:33.209 --> 00:05:34.680 believe there's a 12 month 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:36.839 grace period after adoption of the impact fees. 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:37.839 >> That's what I was about to say. 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:40.220 And I'm sorry I didn't watch the council meeting last night 00:05:40.220 --> 00:05:40.439 . 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:41.199 Was it adopted? 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:44.360 >> The ordinance was tabled? 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:45.040 >> No, it was not. 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:46.160 >> It was not, okay. 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.560 So if we- >> It was put up. 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:52.279 >> Right, so if we approve this tonight, I don't think that 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:52.879 will have any effect. 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:54.680 Because I think it has to be a final plat. 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:58.279 But there will be a 12 month grace period and the amount 00:05:58.279 --> 00:05:59.120 might be assessed. 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:02.240 But it will not be collected per building permits for 12 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:02.839 months. 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:06.959 >> Gotcha, I guess my point would be, is this an example of 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:08.040 making a phase one 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:13.189 extremely small and having subsequent phases much larger to 00:06:13.189 --> 00:06:13.839 reduce 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:15.639 the road impact fee of the developer? 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:20.959 Does that question, am I making sense with that question? 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.990 Because it seems like under the new regulations, the new 00:06:23.990 --> 00:06:24.680 road impact fee, 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:28.600 when it's adopted, every rooftop would be assessed at a 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:30.199 building permit. 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:33.279 That's not the case under the current rules. 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:37.360 Maybe I'm muddling the waters. 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:39.560 I'm just trying to understand the implications, 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:42.319 how this would look different under the different road 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:42.920 impact. 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:45.360 Because phase one looks extremely small and it just seems 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:47.959 like it's conveniently really small. 00:06:47.959 --> 00:06:49.959 I was wondering if that was the motivation. 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:54.829 >> If I can chime in, and again, correct me if I'm wrong 00:06:54.829 --> 00:06:55.480 here. 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.800 We currently don't have impact fees when you say- 00:06:58.800 --> 00:06:59.959 >> The exactions. 00:06:59.959 --> 00:07:01.519 >> Okay. >> Right. 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:02.519 That's the right word. 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:03.439 I apologize. 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:04.560 Sorry about that guys. 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:07.279 >> The exactions are only to phase one, right? 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:10.199 >> Yes. >> Thank you, Ron. 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:12.519 >> The exactions that we would apply for phase 1A would 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:14.199 just be along the frontage of phase 1A. 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:17.480 >> So when phase 1B comes in, there's not any additional 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:18.360 exactions? 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:19.480 >> That is correct. 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:23.420 There would be some exactions, but in terms of signal cost 00:07:23.420 --> 00:07:25.399 participation rather than 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:28.529 perimeter street improvements along existing roadways 00:07:28.529 --> 00:07:31.240 because they don't have frontage on, say, Stewart Road. 00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:32.079 >> Yeah. >> Which is existing. 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:34.560 >> So they would construct all the interior road network. 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:39.000 >> Yeah, I guess this just illustrates to me the need for 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.240 the road impact fees rather than the exactions because 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:45.240 it seems like the city's missing out on a lot of potential 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:46.560 fees under the current setup and 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.879 the way these developers designed this plot. 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:52.360 Thanks for that diatribe. 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:52.959 One last thing. 00:07:55.439 --> 00:08:00.370 I'm concerned about adding this many homes on Stewart Road 00:08:00.370 --> 00:08:03.600 when it's serviced by engine five. 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:08.759 So fire engine five is what services this plot of land. 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:15.199 The station five is at the corner of Bonnie Bray and Winds 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:15.639 or. 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:19.720 And there's not a cross over 288 at Stewart. 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:22.959 So if there's a fire in one of these homes, the fire engine 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:24.560 would come out of station five, 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:26.600 head north on Bonnie Bray. 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:29.040 Bonnie Bray hits Luke 288. 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:32.409 They would have to drive past the actual fire and do a U- 00:08:32.409 --> 00:08:34.679 turn to come back to the fire. 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:39.690 And so I guess if you buy a home there, you understand that 00:08:39.690 --> 00:08:40.840 there's going to be a delay, 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:44.970 but it raises some concerns putting that many houses in a 00:08:44.970 --> 00:08:47.659 way in which the main thoroughfare doesn't even cross over 00:08:47.659 --> 00:08:49.039 Luke 288. 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:52.799 Station five. 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:55.840 Yeah, I think four. 00:08:57.519 --> 00:08:59.039 Yeah, this is coming from a firefighter. 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:03.559 I'm relaying their concerns about that. 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:05.639 But even if it was station four, there's... 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:16.279 [inaudible] 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:19.830 It was reviewed by our fire department within the DRC 00:09:19.830 --> 00:09:20.879 committee. 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:21.639 Okay. 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:23.399 Yeah, that's good. 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:25.200 That's all of the thoughts I had about this. 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:25.720 Thanks. 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:28.960 Commissioner Bruegel. 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:31.720 Thank you, Chair. 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:34.120 Commissioner Rossell, that was impressive just now. 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:35.120 Thank you for that. 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:37.000 It was very insightful. 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.360 I have a couple of clarifications on the minutes. 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:40.720 Can we talk about that now? 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:44.120 Or do we talk about that in the regular session? 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:45.519 I'm not sure. 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:49.200 I'm going to ask staff for direction on that. 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.629 I think we have that on the agenda to consider as an item, 00:09:53.629 --> 00:09:55.200 so we should probably wait till... 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:55.799 No problem. 00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:56.360 I'll hold that thought. 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:56.799 Thank you. 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:02.720 These are for just clarification on consideration items. 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:03.519 Okay. 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:05.200 Any other questions on the plats? 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:07.679 You have a plaque question? 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:08.799 Commissioner Detowitz. 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:12.379 Just a point of clarification on the size of phase one A 00:10:12.379 --> 00:10:13.480 and two others. 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:18.190 I've been involved in some of these developments in the 00:10:18.190 --> 00:10:20.360 past, it may be because of the impact 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:26.139 fee or it may be because the investment to complete a phase 00:10:26.139 --> 00:10:28.440 is less, but smaller, and 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:31.679 then it attracts more capital after it's been started. 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:34.200 So they may start small for that purpose. 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:36.340 Jim, who's been in the development stage, may be able to 00:10:36.340 --> 00:10:37.360 speak to it more, but that 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.200 might be the other alternative in a multi-phase development 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:41.480 . 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:43.240 They start smaller. 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:44.080 That's a great point. 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:46.000 I don't know the actual savings or... 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:46.639 Yeah. 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:48.320 I'm not saying the developers trying to manipulate the 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:48.720 system. 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.570 It just raised the thought about that conversation we've 00:10:52.570 --> 00:10:53.759 had recently. 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:54.279 Yeah. 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:57.720 I would agree with your comment and observation that 00:10:57.720 --> 00:10:59.879 because it does abut Stuart, they're 00:10:59.879 --> 00:11:02.679 having to do all that perimeter street paving, and so they 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:04.600 're absorbing all of that infrastructure 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:08.429 cost that has to then be rolled in over the lots, whereas 00:11:08.429 --> 00:11:10.639 some of that other development 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:14.259 down the road will not have some of that cost, and that's 00:11:14.259 --> 00:11:16.320 probably why they've pulled it 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:17.320 back a little bit. 00:11:17.320 --> 00:11:18.320 No, that makes sense. 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.320 Be just a guess. 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.399 Any other questions on the plats? 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:33.039 Okay. 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.860 Do we want, at this time in our work session, you want to 00:11:35.860 --> 00:11:37.559 address your item on the minutes, 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:40.000 and then we'll come back and do our two staff reports? 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:41.000 Sure. 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:44.710 We'll wait until the regular session to discuss the minutes 00:11:44.710 --> 00:11:45.000 . 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:48.000 Not in work session at all? 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:49.000 Okay. 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:50.000 All right. 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:53.379 Seeing that we don't have any other discussion on minutes, 00:11:53.379 --> 00:11:55.320 on plats, then we'll move on into 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.610 our work session reports, and I'll turn that over to Ron 00:11:58.610 --> 00:11:59.919 for introduction. 00:11:59.919 --> 00:12:01.960 Thank you, Chair. 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:06.799 We have Beverly Zant, our DRC administrator, present this 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:07.519 item. 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:12.440 And with this presentation, we passed out, staff passed out 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:14.519 an email from a citizen, 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:18.779 and the questions posed will be addressed by Beverly as 00:12:18.779 --> 00:12:19.480 well. 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:29.320 So with that, turn it over to Beverly. 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:31.440 Good evening, Mr. Chairman and commissioners. 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:35.519 In response to some questions and requests for information 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:37.399 that were given to staff, 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:38.960 we have two presentations this evening. 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:42.129 The first presentation has to do with notification of 00:12:42.129 --> 00:12:44.600 public hearings and public meetings. 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.090 This is basically addressing our requirements, our policies 00:12:48.090 --> 00:12:49.200 and procedures. 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:54.480 Generally, there are two state statutes that guide staff in 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:58.480 their public notification procedures. 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:02.529 Section 211-006 has to do with the publication of 00:13:02.529 --> 00:13:04.600 notification to the public. 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:07.070 It requires the 15th day before the day of the hearing that 00:13:07.070 --> 00:13:08.159 notice be published in a 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.080 newspaper of general circulation. 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.679 For us, that's the Denton Record Chronicle. 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:16.200 Although it does say 15, the standard for staff is 17 days, 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:17.279 and we typically anticipate 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:19.679 getting those notices out to the paper three weeks in 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:21.200 advance to make sure that we hit 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:25.279 that 17-day mark. 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:27.840 So we have a three-week lead time in getting those 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:29.840 publication notifications set. 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:32.970 The second one has to do with the property owner 00:13:32.970 --> 00:13:35.080 notification, which calls for before 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:36.240 the 10th day of the hearing. 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.370 Written notice shall be provided to property owners within 00:13:39.370 --> 00:13:41.320 200 feet of the proposed change 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:42.320 in zoning. 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:46.259 Again, this is another example of staff getting ahead of 00:13:46.259 --> 00:13:46.879 that. 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:51.620 We usually require 12 days, so that's our goals to get 00:13:51.620 --> 00:13:54.200 those posted before the 12th 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:55.200 day. 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.230 These are these two guiding principles that we use in most 00:13:58.230 --> 00:13:59.759 of our public notification 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:04.919 procedures, and what state law calls for. 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:09.009 Just to add some additional detail to what state law asks 00:14:09.009 --> 00:14:11.200 for, it calls for property 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:15.370 owner notification to be based on the recently approved 00:14:15.370 --> 00:14:18.120 municipal tax roll of real property 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.100 within 200 feet of the property for which the rezoning is 00:14:21.100 --> 00:14:22.480 proposed, and it calls for 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.200 it to be addressed with postage paid in U.S. mail. 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:29.629 Our debt and development code calls for an additional 00:14:29.629 --> 00:14:32.000 standard that we utilize certified 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:35.480 mail for that 200-foot notification procedure. 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.779 And if you see, we have an example of what our -- and most 00:14:37.779 --> 00:14:38.879 of you have probably seen 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:42.240 these as we get the return notices -- of what our notices 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:43.960 look like and what -- that are 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:46.759 sent out. 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:51.570 Again, this is what the minimum requirements are for the 00:14:51.570 --> 00:14:54.360 Texas local government code for 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:57.440 zoning changes, replats, and residential replats. 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.039 For published notices, all three are required. 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:02.950 And for zoning change and residential replats, notification 00:15:02.950 --> 00:15:04.879 to property owners is also required. 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:07.169 In addition to that, the City of Denton does a mailed 00:15:07.169 --> 00:15:09.200 notice to residents within 500 feet 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:10.580 as a courtesy. 00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:14.019 This doesn't count towards the ultimate 20% requirement 00:15:14.019 --> 00:15:16.279 that would trigger a supermajority, 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:19.039 but is a courtesy notice to residents. 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:22.370 The -- occasionally these are often -- probably more often 00:15:22.370 --> 00:15:24.720 than not, these are duplicated, 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.480 and it's very possible that residents get both the 200-foot 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:30.360 response and also the courtesy 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:32.600 notice within 500 feet. 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:36.330 In addition to that, for variances, only a public meeting 00:15:36.330 --> 00:15:37.360 is required. 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:40.610 The City of Denton does published notice, mailed notice to 00:15:40.610 --> 00:15:42.200 property owners, and also 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:44.830 mailed notice to residents within 500 feet, exceeding the 00:15:44.830 --> 00:15:46.039 local government code in all 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:51.840 categories. 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:54.669 In addition to the posting -- in addition to the 00:15:54.669 --> 00:15:57.039 publication and the notification of 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:02.639 property owners within 200 feet, staff also posts a sign on 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.480 the subject tract. 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.129 Here's an example of a sign that was provided by one staff 00:16:07.129 --> 00:16:08.679 member, and this is called for 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:12.259 in Denton Development Code, Section 3544, requiring the 00:16:12.259 --> 00:16:13.960 posting of a sign on the subject 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:15.139 property. 00:16:15.139 --> 00:16:18.299 But we have taken it still a step further, and we usually 00:16:18.299 --> 00:16:20.320 get out way ahead of notification 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:25.100 by putting on our current projects page anticipated action 00:16:25.100 --> 00:16:28.639 and items that would be for consideration. 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:30.700 We update that, I believe, weekly. 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:33.970 So we usually are way ahead as we start to get closer to 00:16:33.970 --> 00:16:36.480 the anticipated date that information 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:37.919 is updated fairly regularly. 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:41.700 So on our current project page, we also have just 00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:44.799 information to the general public. 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:46.779 In looking at this, you know, we really took this 00:16:46.779 --> 00:16:48.879 opportunity, and we appreciate the commission 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:51.850 bringing this to our attention, and we are looking at ways 00:16:51.850 --> 00:16:53.519 that we can continue to improve 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:54.519 this. 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:55.980 We understand occasionally we have folks who come up here 00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:57.320 and say, "I didn't get my notice," 00:16:57.320 --> 00:16:58.960 or, "I wasn't aware of it." 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:00.870 And there's always -- I think everywhere I've worked, there 00:17:00.870 --> 00:17:06.039 's always been that sort of issue 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:07.559 that has come up with the public. 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:11.019 So we took a look around at some of the surrounding cities 00:17:11.019 --> 00:17:13.480 and what their local practices are. 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:17.420 We looked, as you can see, at Denton, Plano, Frisco, McKin 00:17:17.420 --> 00:17:19.119 ney, and Lewisville. 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:21.980 Where there's a check, it indicates that the jurisdiction 00:17:21.980 --> 00:17:24.720 participates in that sort of notification. 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.490 As you can see, Denton and Plano are the only two cities 00:17:27.490 --> 00:17:29.799 that do the 500-foot courtesy notice 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:32.359 to residents. 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:35.059 All jurisdictions post signs, which is the standard 00:17:35.059 --> 00:17:36.960 practice these days in most cities, 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.859 but only the city of Denton actually takes the sign out and 00:17:39.859 --> 00:17:41.519 posts it for the applicant. 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:44.420 All the other jurisdictions require that the applicant pay 00:17:44.420 --> 00:17:46.359 for, purchase, pick up, post, 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:47.799 and certify the sign was posted. 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:52.799 So we do an extra step to assist our applicants in getting 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.079 that notification information out 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.150 and making it noticed by area residents as they drive past 00:18:00.150 --> 00:18:02.079 it by posting that sign. 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:05.960 And here's just a couple of other notification -- you can 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:08.200 see a notification buffer that 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:09.200 looks very much like ours. 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:11.900 I believe it's from the city of Plano, and then below I 00:18:11.900 --> 00:18:13.680 have just posted an example of 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:17.240 the posting requirements City of Frisco provides to their 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:19.880 community -- I mean, to their applicants 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:27.000 as they are required to follow directions for sign posting. 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.650 In addition to those requirements in the local government 00:18:29.650 --> 00:18:31.599 code, we have additional requirements, 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:33.519 I think, as you all are aware of, that are in the Texas 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:34.759 government code as they relate 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:36.559 to open meetings. 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:40.200 And the information is in chapter 551. 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:42.390 I pulled some information from the open meetings handbook 00:18:42.390 --> 00:18:44.000 that was posted on the attorney general's 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:45.000 website. 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.170 And generally, I think you are familiar with most of these 00:18:47.170 --> 00:18:48.319 provisions that the meeting 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:51.109 be open to the public, be posted at least 72 hours before 00:18:51.109 --> 00:18:52.319 the scheduled time of the 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:53.680 meeting. 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.220 We typically get those agendas posted Friday well in 00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:58.140 advance of the meeting and certainly 00:18:58.140 --> 00:19:00.160 more than 72 hours. 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:02.640 It be posted on the city's website and also physically 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.559 posted in a particular location, 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:06.660 and be sufficient to apprise the general public of the 00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:08.119 subjects to be considered during the 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:09.119 meeting. 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:11.400 And I think we take great care and have revised 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.519 occasionally some of our captions to make 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:16.900 sure that the public understands what is actually being 00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:17.880 considered. 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:20.829 This is a -- I think a pretty standard practice for, I 00:19:20.829 --> 00:19:23.079 think, more seasoned planners as we 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:24.079 look at those. 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:26.700 It is very important for us to understand -- to make sure 00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:28.000 that we understand it and 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:30.829 that a general layperson looking at the caption could 00:19:30.829 --> 00:19:33.119 understand what was being considered. 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:37.890 Denton also does not have this requirement, but strongly 00:19:37.890 --> 00:19:40.799 encourages and certainly we would 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:42.890 bring it to your attention, I think have brought to your 00:19:42.890 --> 00:19:44.240 attention, when an applicant does 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:46.230 not want to have a neighborhood meeting or has decided not 00:19:46.230 --> 00:19:47.519 to have a neighborhood meeting. 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:49.140 Usually the neighbors will bring it to your attention as 00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:50.039 well if they haven't because 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:54.279 I think most of our residents are aware of this practice. 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:57.480 Here's a recent one that was done on the United Way project 00:19:57.480 --> 00:19:58.839 that you may recall. 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:03.980 But in addition to that, in scouring some of our materials 00:20:03.980 --> 00:20:06.480 in our notification folder 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:10.599 that we all share, I found some handouts that we have 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:13.519 typically handed out, but somehow 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:15.559 I think that practice has fallen away. 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:16.559 I was talking to staff. 00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:17.559 I said, these are so great. 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:19.200 Where did these come from? 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:20.880 And Mike Bell said, oh, I did those. 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:21.880 They look terrific. 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:25.339 And certainly it's something that we have taken to 00:20:25.339 --> 00:20:28.240 explaining the process to the attendees 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:30.329 that attend those neighborhood meetings, but I think as a 00:20:30.329 --> 00:20:31.400 general practice it would be 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:33.910 useful to also distribute these, kind of letting them know 00:20:33.910 --> 00:20:35.400 this is not the public hearing. 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:37.690 This is a neighborhood meeting and here's when the public 00:20:37.690 --> 00:20:38.799 hearing is and here's how 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.200 that goes and here's what a hearing is. 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.650 Here's what a public hearing is because as germane as that 00:20:44.650 --> 00:20:46.480 is to our daily conversation 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.079 and what we talk about, I don't know that everyone always 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:50.440 understands that that is their 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:52.960 opportunity to speak and so we try and articulate that and 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:54.720 make that clear that there is multiple 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.039 opportunities for them to give input. 00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:00.089 And so this certainly helps with that and I hope to reutil 00:21:00.089 --> 00:21:01.960 ize these in those neighborhood 00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:02.960 meetings. 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:05.049 We typically also give the applicants some guidance about 00:21:05.049 --> 00:21:06.119 how those meetings should go 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:10.279 and they are almost invariably attended by a staff member 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:12.240 or case manager and I also 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:17.400 attend many of those meetings in addition to the staff 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:18.480 member. 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:21.609 Just to talk and this actually will address some of the 00:21:21.609 --> 00:21:23.640 questions that were provided from, 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.730 I think, the citizen who had submitted some questions that 00:21:26.730 --> 00:21:28.160 you all have before you and 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:30.450 it has to do with how we notify and how we come up with 00:21:30.450 --> 00:21:31.759 that list and what does that 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.200 list come from. 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.230 Essentially these are, I think, I probably am dating myself 00:21:37.230 --> 00:21:38.559 but I remember in very old 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:41.680 times using the little protractor to draw the circles but 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:43.440 we are much more sophisticated 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:48.000 these days and we use GIS to identify the 200 foot buffer 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.519 and the 500 foot courtesy 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:53.029 buffer and if you look at the image on the left you will 00:21:53.029 --> 00:21:54.559 see the subject track in cyan 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:56.079 blue. 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.900 We then run a query to GIS asking it to select all 00:21:58.900 --> 00:22:01.319 properties within 200 feet. 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:05.869 If the buffer even touches the property line in any way, 00:22:05.869 --> 00:22:08.480 then that subject track, that 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:11.369 piece of property is included in the database and you can 00:22:11.369 --> 00:22:13.319 see in this case there is a 200 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:16.079 foot and a 500 foot. 00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:18.269 What ends up happening after that is that a table is 00:22:18.269 --> 00:22:19.680 generated off that buffer. 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:23.259 It selects all the parcels and populates a spreadsheet and 00:22:23.259 --> 00:22:25.480 that spreadsheet is then exported 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:29.640 to Excel and we now have a database for both the 200 foot 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:31.599 and the 500 foot. 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:33.079 How accurate are they? 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.630 I did a little research into this and I understand I think 00:22:35.630 --> 00:22:36.799 it's pretty typical. 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:42.420 We get the plats, the city receives those and our GIS team 00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:45.119 updates the parcels based 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.480 on the plats. 00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:49.170 They look at those, they work with the meets and balance 00:22:49.170 --> 00:22:50.839 descriptions and they basically 00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:54.009 update the parcels based on the subdivision plat that is 00:22:54.009 --> 00:22:56.279 provided and then work with existing 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.200 tracks to make sure that they are as accurate as we can get 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:01.160 them for existing subdivisions. 00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:04.980 We provide that information, we share that information with 00:23:04.980 --> 00:23:06.759 the tax appraisal district 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:08.640 and they utilize that for their parcel layer. 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:12.230 So it's the most accurate, it's as accurate as the county 00:23:12.230 --> 00:23:14.000 has and I think probably a higher 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.329 degree of accuracy than we've probably ever seen in the 00:23:16.329 --> 00:23:17.759 public notification process by 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:19.400 means of GIS. 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:22.319 So this is how those are selected. 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:24.619 From there, that list that's generated, that spreadsheet 00:23:24.619 --> 00:23:26.119 which is essentially an Excel, 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:28.380 we can export to an Excel spreadsheet, that is sent to the 00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:29.599 planner who is managing the 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:30.920 case. 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:33.339 That planner takes that list, scrubs it a little to make 00:23:33.339 --> 00:23:34.720 sure there's no duplications 00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:37.849 within the list and cleans it up to make sure that 00:23:37.849 --> 00:23:40.200 everything is there and then sends it 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:43.170 to Athenia who usually sends that out to ClickToMail which 00:23:43.170 --> 00:23:45.359 is our mail service provider who mails 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:46.359 those out. 00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:48.680 The 200 foot notifications as you're aware are through 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:50.200 certified mail and the 500 foot 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:54.440 notification are by US mail. 00:23:54.440 --> 00:24:00.099 Again, in looking at this, we look at how many returned 00:24:00.099 --> 00:24:03.339 certified mail we get, we look 00:24:03.339 --> 00:24:06.809 at how many returns we get in general and how we can 00:24:06.809 --> 00:24:09.440 improve the process because I think 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.970 it always is something that requires evaluation and 00:24:11.970 --> 00:24:14.079 certainly there's some questions I think 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:15.680 that occasionally come up. 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:19.420 So I think in looking at our process evaluation, we talked 00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:21.960 about the effectiveness of certified 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:22.960 mail. 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:26.180 It's called for in our ordinance but if you receive 00:24:26.180 --> 00:24:28.400 certified mail and you're busy and 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:30.839 if you don't know what it's about, you may not take the 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:32.200 time to go to the post office 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:35.539 and pick that up and you may not do it in a timely fashion 00:24:35.539 --> 00:24:36.279 either. 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:39.230 So certainly for some of our more busy property owners, 00:24:39.230 --> 00:24:41.240 this might present an impediment if 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:42.640 they aren't there to sign for it. 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:45.059 They've got to go now and make a special trip to get it and 00:24:45.059 --> 00:24:46.279 if they're not sure what it 00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:50.519 is, they may not take the time to do that. 00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:53.650 We are looking at the idea of maybe looking at more 00:24:53.650 --> 00:24:55.920 frequent updates to city parcel data 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:57.000 set. 00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:01.250 We essentially are working with a data set that's posted by 00:25:01.250 --> 00:25:03.339 the tax appraisal district 00:25:03.339 --> 00:25:06.710 once a year in July when they certify the property valu 00:25:06.710 --> 00:25:08.759 ations, they post that list on 00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:09.880 their website. 00:25:09.880 --> 00:25:12.940 We work with that list of property owner notifications but 00:25:12.940 --> 00:25:14.640 we get monthly supplements. 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:18.359 And so we can, we have historically interpreted that 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:21.200 recently approved tax roll language to 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:24.250 mean the certified list but now we're looking at that and 00:25:24.250 --> 00:25:25.880 we're saying maybe we can use 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:28.329 those supplementals and we'll work with legal if we can use 00:25:28.329 --> 00:25:29.640 those monthly supplementals 00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.420 because that really reflects what has been filed and 00:25:32.420 --> 00:25:33.880 recorded by the county and they 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:35.859 give us those updates monthly. 00:25:35.859 --> 00:25:38.369 Maybe that would be a more effective list to use in the 00:25:38.369 --> 00:25:39.880 future as we go forward if that 00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:41.759 certainly meets the requirements of local government code. 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:44.230 It has in other communities I've worked with but we would 00:25:44.230 --> 00:25:46.640 want to be as correct as possible 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:48.079 in looking at those updates. 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:51.079 Keeping in mind that also that the tax appraisal district 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:52.400 has a lag of their own. 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:55.170 Just because it's filed doesn't mean it jumps on to the 00:25:55.170 --> 00:25:56.920 website the next day or jumps on 00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:01.200 to their GIS parcel list the next day. 00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:03.599 Sometimes there's a two or three month lag there as well. 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:06.660 So trying to make sure that we are working with as current 00:26:06.660 --> 00:26:08.240 as we can, as current as what 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:11.430 they have on their website is I think probably our highest 00:26:11.430 --> 00:26:13.440 goal and probably meets the intent 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:17.259 of local government code more than arguing between what's 00:26:17.259 --> 00:26:19.240 certified and what's not. 00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:21.599 And then evaluate return notices. 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:23.140 Some staff members have looked at those, some that have 00:26:23.140 --> 00:26:24.119 come from other communities and 00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:27.369 said well there's a whole list of items they have to fill 00:26:27.369 --> 00:26:29.319 out and maybe it would be better 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:32.039 if the applicant's name was automatically populated on that 00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:32.920 return notice. 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:34.710 I know there's been occasions where we're like we got it 00:26:34.710 --> 00:26:35.920 but they didn't put their name. 00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:36.920 We're trying to figure out who it's from. 00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:39.680 It certainly counts but we need to figure out where it 00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:40.319 counts. 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:43.839 And maybe taking a look at simplifying that response sheet 00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:45.519 is something that we could 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:49.960 do in the near future I think and update that. 00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:53.180 And then make neighborhood meetings mandatory for rezoning 00:26:53.180 --> 00:26:55.000 cases, perhaps for specific use 00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:56.799 permits as well. 00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.890 This would be something that we could consider with some of 00:26:58.890 --> 00:27:00.119 the code updates that are coming 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.079 if should that be your direction to give us. 00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:07.170 We certainly have that expectation and we don't usually, I 00:27:07.170 --> 00:27:09.160 don't think it always presents 00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:11.400 well to the commission if that step is skipped. 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:16.829 So I think maybe given your direction we could consider 00:27:16.829 --> 00:27:19.680 integrating that as well. 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:21.500 And I'm glad to answer any questions regarding the 00:27:21.500 --> 00:27:23.079 notification procedures that you might 00:27:23.079 --> 00:27:24.079 have. 00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:25.079 Commissioner Beck. 00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:26.079 Thank you, Chair. 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:28.480 Thank you very much for your presentation. 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:32.420 I will readily concede the City of Dent does a great job of 00:27:32.420 --> 00:27:34.279 trying to get the word out 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:36.640 in some cases above and beyond. 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:39.400 But having said that, obviously we're getting some 00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:41.759 complaints that they're not hearing about 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:42.759 this. 00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:45.589 Did I understand you correctly to say that these 00:27:45.589 --> 00:27:48.160 neighborhood meetings are not mandatory 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:49.160 currently? 00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:50.160 They're not. 00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:53.490 We strongly encourage it, but it's not a call for in the 00:27:53.490 --> 00:27:54.920 development code. 00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:59.670 But we would always, as you know, we always make a point of 00:27:59.670 --> 00:28:01.519 noting that to you. 00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:03.400 It's so strongly encouraged, I think, that it's routinely 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:03.920 followed. 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:05.960 But it might be a better idea to just make it mandatory. 00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:08.400 So that's something we could look at and consider. 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:09.400 Absolutely. 00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:12.099 And I think the updates more, I think a couple things will 00:28:12.099 --> 00:28:12.799 help that. 00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:14.950 Some of the things that I presented, I think all of those 00:28:14.950 --> 00:28:16.680 could potentially help that notification 00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:18.680 effectiveness. 00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.960 The 200 feet and the 500 foot, where is that measured from? 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:27.109 From the outer property line, from the center of the 00:28:27.109 --> 00:28:28.200 property? 00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:30.799 It's measured from the boundary of the subject track. 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:33.980 So it's 200 feet out from each boundary of the subject 00:28:33.980 --> 00:28:34.559 track. 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:36.119 It's not from a point. 00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:37.799 It's measured from a polygon. 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:39.880 So it's not measured from the center point. 00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.599 It's measured from the polygon, which is the subject track 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:43.160 itself. 00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:44.160 Great. 00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:45.160 Okay. 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:51.619 One of the things I discussed with them in all, that this 00:28:51.619 --> 00:28:53.319 list that we create from the 00:28:53.319 --> 00:28:57.920 appraisal district, as you mentioned, it's based on a year 00:28:57.920 --> 00:28:59.319 to year basis, but there's 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:01.319 these monthly supplements. 00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:05.410 But you all are viewing just the annual report, is that 00:29:05.410 --> 00:29:07.480 correct, when you make the list? 00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:08.920 A couple different data sets. 00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:11.359 We have a data set that's maintained by the city, our own 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:12.319 parcel data set. 00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:14.519 And those monthly supplements come in. 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:17.839 We basically merge those based on the property ID or new 00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:18.799 ones. 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:21.930 But the one that is being used by our GS team is the 00:29:21.930 --> 00:29:24.319 certified role that is posted on the 00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:26.940 tax appraisal website that I think they call it the 00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:29.200 certified land value, and they do that. 00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:31.319 They issue that once a year in July. 00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:34.119 I tried to get more information about that from them, but I 00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:35.400 was -- no one would return 00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:38.819 my call, but I did look on their website, and it is posted 00:29:38.819 --> 00:29:40.519 yearly, and it's the role 00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:42.640 that the valuations are based on. 00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:46.250 But I don't know that a more regular look at that, if we 00:29:46.250 --> 00:29:48.319 use the monthly updates, or 00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:51.279 at least every couple months if we had updates, because, 00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:53.559 you know, running through some scenarios 00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:56.650 with the GIS team, I said if something is -- let's just say 00:29:56.650 --> 00:29:58.200 , for example, something 00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:02.140 is subdivided in May and filed in May, that may not make 00:30:02.140 --> 00:30:04.359 the certified tax roll list by 00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:07.170 July -- it may not make the website, you know, or the 00:30:07.170 --> 00:30:09.559 certified tax roll list by that time, 00:30:09.559 --> 00:30:13.339 and updates to the parcels may not occur until, you know, 00:30:13.339 --> 00:30:15.480 maybe four months later, then we 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:19.160 wouldn't see that updated property ownership until over a 00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:20.119 year later. 00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:24.920 So the supplemental updates, we are looking at that. 00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:26.900 I've had a preliminary conversation with legal, but I think 00:30:26.900 --> 00:30:28.240 we want to sort of make sure that 00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:31.000 we are in the strictest compliance with local government 00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:32.680 code, but thinking of the spirit 00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:35.029 of the local government code, which is to get the notice 00:30:35.029 --> 00:30:36.200 out in an effective way, I 00:30:36.200 --> 00:30:40.019 think that it's probably time for us to maybe see how -- if 00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:42.559 we can update that more often. 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:45.430 Let me suggest maybe an easy fix to this, and you correct 00:30:45.430 --> 00:30:47.119 me if I'm wrong, but why not 00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:49.720 go ahead and send two letters out? 00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:51.980 And I -- you know, we can debate the certified issue, not 00:30:51.980 --> 00:30:53.319 -- you bring up an interesting 00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:57.400 point why people would avoid that altogether, but why not 00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:59.519 send one letter to the person 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:04.690 that's on the tax appraisal rolls and one to the address 00:31:04.690 --> 00:31:05.759 itself? 00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.240 And perhaps we wouldn't know the name. 00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:11.519 I almost defeat the purpose of putting occupant on 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:13.559 something, you know, because people toss 00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:18.309 it, but perhaps stamping that envelope somehow with 00:31:18.309 --> 00:31:21.480 important notice, you know, in bold red 00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:25.890 letters or something, sending it to both the address where 00:31:25.890 --> 00:31:28.119 probably a new owner does live 00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:30.960 and to the one that's on the appraisal district. 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.680 Is that a conceivable -- I think we do it. 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.319 I think with the 500 foot, we take the same polygon, we 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:39.640 shoot out 500 feet, and it goes 00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:42.000 to the resident. 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:44.299 So the goal is to -- the local government code says you 00:31:44.299 --> 00:31:45.599 have to send to the property 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.430 owner, but we have said, okay, we'll do that, but we also 00:31:48.430 --> 00:31:49.740 want the resident to know because 00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:51.579 just because they don't own the property doesn't mean they 00:31:51.579 --> 00:31:52.119 don't care. 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:53.920 So you do that for the 200 and 500? 00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:56.609 We do it for the 200 and the 500, so it's very likely that 00:31:56.609 --> 00:31:57.599 if you own the house you 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.799 live in and you're within the buffer, you're going to get 00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:01.759 two notices. 00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:07.000 So but you would -- for the official sort of response that 00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.960 counts towards our 20%, we 00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:12.650 always are looking for that return notice, so I don't -- 00:32:12.650 --> 00:32:14.160 but they usually are getting 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.670 both -- and I ask the planners who look at the list, I say, 00:32:16.670 --> 00:32:18.240 do you eliminate the duplications? 00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:20.279 They said, no, we don't do that. 00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:22.599 Two notices go out. 00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:26.390 Is the owner's name on the appraisal district's list on 00:32:26.390 --> 00:32:27.680 both letters? 00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:30.519 I mean, because, again, if a new owner's there and sees the 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:32.079 old owner's name, they're going 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.400 to write return to sender on it. 00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:37.779 So do we make that distinction when we send it to the 00:32:37.779 --> 00:32:38.680 address? 00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:41.180 I'm guessing and I'm sure that staff can add something to 00:32:41.180 --> 00:32:44.079 this, but if it's based on GIS, 00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:46.829 which comes from the tax appraisal district, we don't have 00:32:46.829 --> 00:32:48.079 the resident's names. 00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:51.279 We usually just have the CITUS address and then we have the 00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:52.519 mailing address. 00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:54.960 And so probably it says -- I'm imagining that it says 00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:56.640 resident, but tell me -- 00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:57.640 Resident, okay. 00:32:57.640 --> 00:32:59.279 It says resident on it. 00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:03.700 So it may not be the name because we're working off the 00:33:03.700 --> 00:33:05.799 data set and the -- as you know, the 00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:07.799 tax appraisal district doesn't really care who lives there. 00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:09.279 They care who's paying the taxes. 00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:10.279 Right. 00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:11.279 And as we mentioned, that's probably going to -- 00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:13.920 So it comes into them as resident. 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:14.920 Okay. 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:21.009 So probably one way to curb the intent or somebody wanting 00:33:21.009 --> 00:33:26.720 to just toss it may be, again, signifying 00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:29.279 on the envelope itself the importance of -- 00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:32.680 Or rezoning notification or something. 00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:34.769 Definitely that's something we could add to our list that 00:33:34.769 --> 00:33:35.839 could be on the envelope. 00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:39.589 If we have standard printed envelopes, it seems that a 00:33:39.589 --> 00:33:41.640 little note could be added to 00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:44.319 that rezoning considered or public hearing involving your 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:45.640 property or something like 00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:46.640 that. 00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:47.640 Okay. 00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:50.640 I've got some other questions, but I'll defer for now. 00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:51.640 You have a floor. 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:52.640 Go ahead. 00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:54.640 This has been an item that's important and we'll make sure 00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:56.000 you get your questions answered. 00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:59.519 The signs, how big are they? 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:01.890 I want to say they are not a lot bigger than a real estate 00:34:01.890 --> 00:34:03.160 sign because I think we use 00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:05.880 the real estate posting boards, but I want to say they're 00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:07.279 probably 2 by 3 feet. 00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:08.280 Is that probably about -- 00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:09.280 Yes. 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:10.280 What is it? 00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:11.280 2 by 4? 00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:12.280 2 by 3. 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:13.280 2 by 3. 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:14.280 Okay. 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:16.730 And they're placed on the outer perimeters of the property 00:34:16.730 --> 00:34:18.039 where somebody walking by, 00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:20.360 driving, you see it, rather than -- 00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:22.530 Generally I think it's been my practice when I've had to 00:34:22.530 --> 00:34:23.920 post signs, and I would imagine 00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:25.599 it's the staff's practice here as well. 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:26.599 I can confirm. 00:34:26.599 --> 00:34:29.150 But generally you want them to be visible from the driving 00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:30.360 right away so that people 00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:32.920 driving by, it catches their attention. 00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:36.170 So it really is so that folks who live in the general area 00:34:36.170 --> 00:34:37.840 who pass that site in their 00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:39.320 cars can see it. 00:34:39.320 --> 00:34:43.880 So I would post it on a hard corner if it was a sign that 00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:44.360 was -- 00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:46.239 So is a corner a lot? 00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:47.639 You still just have the one sign? 00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:50.039 If I posted it on a hard corner, I would probably post it 00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:51.679 so it's visible from the more traveled 00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:52.679 roadway. 00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:55.150 The goal is to try and -- I think we all try and maximize 00:34:55.150 --> 00:34:56.440 exposure of it as much as we 00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:57.440 can. 00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:59.639 Maybe an extra one though where we put it on -- 00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:01.519 I don't know if we've ever done dual posting, but that's 00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:03.239 certainly -- if it's a hard corner, 00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:04.239 that would make sense. 00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:05.239 Okay. 00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:06.239 I thought you did. 00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:07.239 Do too? 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:08.239 Okay. 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:09.239 Do too if it's a hard corner. 00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:10.239 Yeah, I'm sorry. 00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:15.159 And I thought I had one other. 00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:16.159 I think that's it. 00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:17.159 Thank you. 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:18.159 Okay. 00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:19.159 Commissioner Bruegel. 00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:22.360 Commissioner Beck stole most of my questions, but I still 00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:23.599 have a couple left. 00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:24.599 So I think that's great. 00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:28.880 I didn't know that the city sent a certified letter to the 00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:31.199 property owner and a separate 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.960 letter also to the resident. 00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:38.440 Does the city do that for multifamily housing as well? 00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:40.840 I'm thinking like a big apartment building. 00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:44.219 We've had a lot of things come up kind of in that Eagle and 00:35:44.219 --> 00:35:45.639 Welch sort of area. 00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:48.280 Are the residents who live in some of those apartment 00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:49.960 buildings notified or is it just 00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:51.119 the owner of the apartment? 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:53.309 I don't know if it would just be sent to the office or if 00:35:53.309 --> 00:35:54.679 it would be sent to each individual 00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:55.679 property owner. 00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:58.000 Ron, I don't know if you can answer that question. 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.219 We typically send that to the site address and so it's just 00:36:01.219 --> 00:36:02.840 to the property address. 00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:06.039 So it most likely would be to the property management that 00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:07.719 's on site that would receive 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:11.320 that, but we do not send it to individual units within that 00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:12.960 multifamily complex. 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:13.960 Okay. 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:17.099 So the answer to your question is we don't send it to all 00:36:17.099 --> 00:36:18.079 the different. 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:21.840 And do we require the property manager to maybe post that 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:23.599 in a public space in their 00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:27.840 building so that the residents would see it? 00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:29.800 I'm thinking that that's not our requirement. 00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:33.559 So it really is, you know, it's a multifaceted notification 00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:34.559 procedure. 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:36.889 So we try and get the residents and we try and satisfy the 00:36:36.889 --> 00:36:38.519 government code with the property 00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:39.519 owners. 00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:41.789 And then we thinking that we still haven't got everyone, we 00:36:41.789 --> 00:36:42.500 post the sign. 00:36:42.500 --> 00:36:45.489 So there is sort of the first safety net and then the 00:36:45.489 --> 00:36:48.280 second safety net, but we don't require 00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:51.010 that they-- and I'm not sure that-- I would have to defer 00:36:51.010 --> 00:36:52.679 legal but I'm not sure how we 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:53.679 could make them do that. 00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:54.679 Right. 00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:57.320 But certainly if it's something that the property 00:36:57.320 --> 00:36:59.719 management firm is concerned about, there 00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:02.289 is nothing to preclude them from getting that information 00:37:02.289 --> 00:37:02.639 out. 00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.079 I think that addresses another question that was in the 00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:06.480 list that was provided that if 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:09.769 it's in a council member's district, should he notify all 00:37:09.769 --> 00:37:11.079 his constituents? 00:37:11.079 --> 00:37:14.219 Certainly these are things that if there's concern, that is 00:37:14.219 --> 00:37:15.599 sometimes the way things 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:18.809 get around is by folks sharing information with other folks 00:37:18.809 --> 00:37:20.280 that if there is something 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:22.639 that is of grave concern that they certainly could get that 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:23.920 information out by whatever 00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:26.239 means is available to them. 00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:28.570 So the answer to that-- the short answer is no, we don't 00:37:28.570 --> 00:37:30.039 require that, but it certainly 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:32.639 wouldn't-- there's nothing that prevents them from dissemin 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:33.800 ating that information. 00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:34.800 Okay. 00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:37.829 Two critiques that we often hear is that the-- and I think 00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:39.639 it's wonderful that the city does 00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:42.110 at least have the courtesy notice because other cities, 00:37:42.110 --> 00:37:43.480 many cities don't do that, but 00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:46.670 one of the critiques that I often hear is that 500 feet isn 00:37:46.670 --> 00:37:47.599 't far enough. 00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:51.170 Has the city looked into expanding that to 750 feet or 1, 00:37:51.170 --> 00:37:53.280 000 feet and how much more that 00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:57.360 might cost also the city to notify people when you double 00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:00.039 that, the size of the notification 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:01.039 circle? 00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:02.039 Has the city looked into that? 00:38:02.039 --> 00:38:03.400 I think it's come up. 00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:07.730 I think that staff looks for additional direction on that 00:38:07.730 --> 00:38:10.840 as a planner has worked in other cities, 00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:15.760 the 500 foot is the most generous I've ever seen and the-- 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:18.559 certainly it is not the practice, 00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:21.199 but that doesn't mean that we can't have a practice that 00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:22.440 exceeds everybody. 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:25.559 And so I would say we'd look to additional guidance. 00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:29.199 It certainly is more than is required. 00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:32.260 It certainly is more than most other communities are doing, 00:38:32.260 --> 00:38:33.920 but we would look from direction 00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:36.949 of this commission and the council should they decide that 00:38:36.949 --> 00:38:38.440 it isn't sufficient, then 00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:41.559 that would be something that could be considered. 00:38:41.559 --> 00:38:42.559 That's your discretion. 00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.449 And I suppose that the-- by having the neighborhood meeting 00:38:45.449 --> 00:38:47.360 then too, we're really reaching the 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:50.039 entire, that entire neighborhood and not just-- I mean, 00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:51.880 because the people in the 200 and 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:53.969 500 foot will have gotten that notification, but then they 00:38:53.969 --> 00:38:55.039 'll be talking to their neighbors 00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:56.039 as well. 00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:57.039 Right. 00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:58.039 So it just might be something to look into. 00:38:58.039 --> 00:38:59.039 I'd be kind of curious to see that. 00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:00.039 I would look for some direction. 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:02.880 The other one too that I often hear is that the signs are 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:04.800 too small because-- and I know 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:06.969 that they're clearly visible from the street, but you're 00:39:06.969 --> 00:39:08.320 passing by at 30 miles an hour. 00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:09.320 What was that? 00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:12.550 So is there-- so what size are the signs in the other 00:39:12.550 --> 00:39:14.719 cities and can we get something 00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:17.039 bigger? 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:19.440 I think I have worked with bigger signs. 00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:21.530 I also-- our signs were bright yellow and I don't know that 00:39:21.530 --> 00:39:22.360 our-- I think our signs 00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:23.360 are white here. 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:26.980 So there's a couple of things that I think could be done to 00:39:26.980 --> 00:39:28.900 improve that-- to make them 00:39:28.900 --> 00:39:29.900 a little bit bigger. 00:39:29.900 --> 00:39:34.829 I think that it's always a challenge to find a sign that is 00:39:34.829 --> 00:39:37.480 , you know, that we can tote 00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:40.150 to the site and that we can-- I think that I had worked 00:39:40.150 --> 00:39:41.400 with larger frame signs. 00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:43.360 I think this community also worked with larger frame signs 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:44.480 that had like some wrought iron 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:47.039 and bigger that weren't the standard ones that you could 00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:48.360 buy and the wrought iron was 00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:49.360 getting stolen. 00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:51.460 But I think they are small and I think they're small 00:39:51.460 --> 00:39:53.119 because they're just easy to act-- to 00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:54.119 get a hold of. 00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:57.239 But I think we can look at maybe ways we could improve that 00:39:57.239 --> 00:39:58.199 sign face and-- 00:39:58.199 --> 00:39:59.199 Yeah. 00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:00.900 Maybe the color because I think-- when I first saw it, I'm 00:40:00.900 --> 00:40:02.119 like, "Well, it should be like 00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:03.679 brighter, so like a yellow or something. 00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:04.679 You can really see it." 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:05.679 Right. 00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:06.679 Yeah. 00:40:06.679 --> 00:40:07.679 I'd like to increase the visibility of the signs for sure. 00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:09.250 It sounds like I've already thought of some ideas to 00:40:09.250 --> 00:40:09.840 improve that. 00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:10.840 Yeah. 00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:11.840 I actually didn't think that just now but you're right. 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:14.039 That is one thing that catches their eye and they may come 00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:15.039 back and try and figure out 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:16.039 what that is. 00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:17.039 Right. 00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:18.039 Well, that was my question. 00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:19.039 Those are my questions. 00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:20.039 Thank you. 00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:21.039 Commissioner Hudgebeth. 00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:23.440 Thank you, Chair. 00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:24.440 Thank you for your presentation. 00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:27.440 Kim, let's see. 00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:31.280 I'll see if I need that. 00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:36.050 I guess for me to focus in on the issue, it really isn't 00:40:36.050 --> 00:40:40.280 who's noticed more than it is 00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:41.800 they say they weren't noticed. 00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:44.360 How do we then rebuff that? 00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:49.110 And so nothing in the guidelines that you cited mentioned 00:40:49.110 --> 00:40:51.159 tracking but my experience 00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:54.659 in the legal field tells me that even now bankruptcy fil 00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:56.480 ings are all done online. 00:40:56.480 --> 00:41:00.269 You don't have to, your notifications are done via email or 00:41:00.269 --> 00:41:01.000 online. 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:05.000 You don't have to send actual packages anymore. 00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:10.250 So my question is the mail house that we're using, are they 00:41:10.250 --> 00:41:11.840 tracking those? 00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:12.840 Deliverable. 00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:13.840 Yes. 00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:16.199 And who signed for them, who didn't sign for them. 00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:19.170 And then so part B to that question is where is that 00:41:19.170 --> 00:41:20.280 information? 00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:25.760 So if Bill Jones comes up at 100 Jones Street and says he 00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:28.079 didn't get noticed, is there a 00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:32.679 way to quickly say here it is, here's the notice, where are 00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:34.400 you and even if it's not 00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:37.559 in paper form electronically for us to then rebuff that and 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:38.840 say. 00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:39.840 It was sent. 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:40.840 Yes. 00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:44.719 We have I think a couple things might be happening but we 00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:47.239 have the, it's certified mail. 00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:49.840 So we have a way and a lot of times how we find out who 00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:51.400 didn't sign for to get it is 00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:53.079 the ones that come back because we get those returned. 00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:56.090 We don't always get them probably in a timely manner but we 00:41:56.090 --> 00:41:57.559 get them back if they don't 00:41:57.559 --> 00:41:59.719 ever come pick them up or if they were undeliverable for 00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:01.119 some reason we get those back. 00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:02.519 So there is a way to track it. 00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.900 It's just the typical certified mail process. 00:42:05.900 --> 00:42:08.190 And I think it's kind of a little bit of a conundrum 00:42:08.190 --> 00:42:10.000 because while I think the certified 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:13.900 mail process allows us to have some, to be able to say oh 00:42:13.900 --> 00:42:15.719 no you did, we sent it and 00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:17.780 we have some evidence of that. 00:42:17.780 --> 00:42:19.460 It also prevents a little bit of a barrier. 00:42:19.460 --> 00:42:22.320 So it kind of becomes a challenge to us to have the same 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.000 accountability because once 00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:26.099 it goes to, when it goes to certified, when it goes to 00:42:26.099 --> 00:42:27.599 regular mail we, there's not like 00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:29.440 that impediment now to go to the post office. 00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:31.289 It's going to come in your mailbox but then we don't have 00:42:31.289 --> 00:42:32.699 the same level of accountability. 00:42:32.699 --> 00:42:34.880 So it really is kind of a call. 00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:38.119 But certainly the certified mail process and I can check to 00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:39.639 see if they maintain a list 00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:42.829 but I think once it goes out the way we find out that it 00:42:42.829 --> 00:42:44.719 wasn't ever delivered is the 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:48.280 typical way that certified mail, it just eventually just 00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:49.519 comes back to us. 00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:51.769 But we could look to see if there's a way to get a sense of 00:42:51.769 --> 00:42:53.079 the ones that weren't signed 00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:54.079 for. 00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:55.079 I don't know. 00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:55.889 There's got to be some electronic tracking like there is 00:42:55.889 --> 00:42:56.360 for everything else when you 00:42:56.360 --> 00:42:57.360 mail a package. 00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:59.809 You can get a sense of where it is, where it's going, what 00:42:59.809 --> 00:43:00.719 time it arrived. 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:03.610 So we can look and see if there's a way to look and see if 00:43:03.610 --> 00:43:05.079 that was actually taken to 00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.440 your house at 305 on the 15th and no one was there and then 00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:09.920 no one ever signed for it. 00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:11.820 I don't know, I don't know that level of detail that's 00:43:11.820 --> 00:43:13.159 available but we don't mind looking 00:43:13.159 --> 00:43:16.079 in to see if we can have that tracked. 00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:20.820 Yeah, I'll, from my personal experience, I've got to go to 00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:23.039 the post office this evening 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:25.980 and so I've got to send someone a notice that they've been 00:43:25.980 --> 00:43:27.639 sued and then I'm going to track 00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:30.590 it before and when I send my client an invoice, it has a 00:43:30.590 --> 00:43:32.519 tracking number for them to track 00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:35.800 it and then once I make sure it's cleared and it's received 00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:37.360 by the party or it's not 00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:39.789 signed for whatever, then I'll send them an additional 00:43:39.789 --> 00:43:40.320 notice. 00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:43.530 And so I think as a mail house, and again my experience 00:43:43.530 --> 00:43:45.400 with different mail houses, 00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:49.340 I think that's pretty, it's not that intrusive into their 00:43:49.340 --> 00:43:51.719 practices to then, because I'll 00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:55.039 answer one question, the post office does provide all the 00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:56.239 detail you want. 00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:58.079 Now, does it get lost? 00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:02.550 Absolutely, I mean which amazes me that I sort of on mail 00:44:02.550 --> 00:44:04.880 get, but anyway, so, but it 00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:08.039 gives you that information and it's all on the website so I 00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:09.440 would be shocked if that 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:12.940 mail house cannot provide that and so, and for me, that's 00:44:12.940 --> 00:44:15.000 the only thing, the key focus, 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.469 there's other questions, but that's the key focus of mine 00:44:17.469 --> 00:44:18.760 to quickly, and even if it's 00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:22.780 just when it was sent for now, I personally would like to, 00:44:22.780 --> 00:44:24.599 if Bill Jones comes up and 00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:28.750 says it was not received to be able to have a date that it 00:44:28.750 --> 00:44:30.800 was mailed and to whom it was 00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:34.239 addressed and this is the address and then we'll circle 00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:36.000 back, I'm happy to if it's 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:39.130 someone in my area or anywhere and say hey, you know, I 00:44:39.130 --> 00:44:40.840 followed back up and here's the 00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:43.590 proof that it was never picked up, but it was posted on 00:44:43.590 --> 00:44:45.039 this date, I'm happy to do 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:48.739 that and understanding that can't be as instantaneous, but 00:44:48.739 --> 00:44:50.960 the fact that it was mailed, I would like 00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:54.559 to have that tangibly, and so maybe that's part of the 00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:56.760 packet or, and again, if it's 00:44:56.760 --> 00:44:59.019 electronically, it's coming up to the iPad, there's no 00:44:59.019 --> 00:45:00.519 paper lost, it's just a way for 00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:04.239 me to know when it was sent. 00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:07.079 Sure, and I mean, just like you said, it's tracked, that's 00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:08.320 the point of certified mail 00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:10.789 is that it's tracked, so it's probably just a matter of us 00:45:10.789 --> 00:45:12.079 saying hey, how can we get 00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:14.909 that, at least the mail date and whether or not it was 00:45:14.909 --> 00:45:16.679 signed for at that point, that 00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:18.630 would, it seems like we should be able to get that, so we 00:45:18.630 --> 00:45:19.800 definitely can inquire about 00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:20.800 that. 00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:25.590 Okay, and then my, so that's my main focus, so then I have 00:45:25.590 --> 00:45:28.079 suggestions after that, so 00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:33.960 one suggestion is potentially a separate tab on the website 00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:36.840 or a second, separate page, 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:40.340 if you will, that only deals with notices by address, by, 00:45:40.340 --> 00:45:42.199 you know, maybe alphabetical 00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:45.110 or something like that where it's, if I'm on the website 00:45:45.110 --> 00:45:46.480 and I'm, I don't know how 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:50.190 to navigate it, but I have a specific interest or if I'm 00:45:50.190 --> 00:45:52.119 out in a meeting and I want to 00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:54.469 spread the word about these notices, they're readily 00:45:54.469 --> 00:45:56.199 available, they have their separate 00:45:56.199 --> 00:46:00.949 page versus a projects page that may, and I know that the 00:46:00.949 --> 00:46:03.440 projects page is great, but 00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:08.500 just in case it's a thought that it comes up as much maybe 00:46:08.500 --> 00:46:11.840 if there's an easy way to 00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:14.699 get access to it or for me to point someone to it, because 00:46:14.699 --> 00:46:16.039 I don't know that I would 00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:19.389 know without clicking around on the website to find the 00:46:19.389 --> 00:46:21.239 projects page and where it's 00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:22.239 listed, but. 00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:26.719 You mean like a list of those that were within the 200 feet 00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:29.119 and a sort of a spreadsheet saying 00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:31.519 this was the buffer and here's the property that was in 200 00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:32.559 feet, is that what you're 00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:34.159 saying should be on the website or? 00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:37.980 Yes, something like that, so for example, there's a sign 00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:39.840 place at the corner of Smith 00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:44.070 and Jones and so there's just a site on the web page that 00:46:44.070 --> 00:46:46.360 says sign here, if you think 00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:49.579 you're within 200 feet of this address, you know, maybe it 00:46:49.579 --> 00:46:51.480 takes you to a different place, 00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:53.909 so I don't want it to be too labor intensive, I guess is my 00:46:53.909 --> 00:46:55.440 point, just a quick here's all 00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:58.190 our sign placements because we have to go out and place the 00:46:58.190 --> 00:46:59.639 signs or we're as a courtesy 00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:03.679 replacing the signs anyway, here's all the sign locations. 00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:07.519 I think that's definitely something that I think could be 00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:09.360 made a little bit more clear 00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:12.360 and accessible, keep in mind that the number of the cases 00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:14.000 usually posted on the sign and 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:16.599 that usually becomes the trackable point where they can 00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:18.239 look on the current projects page 00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:20.550 and take a look and see what that's about, but I believe 00:47:20.550 --> 00:47:21.880 that a number, a city number 00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:25.559 is also posted a contact number so that they can also say, 00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:27.519 hey, I saw this sign, these 00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:30.579 are the kinds of calls I've gotten, I've signed the sign, 00:47:30.579 --> 00:47:33.039 it's Z, you know, 150530, can you 00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:34.440 help me with that? 00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:38.289 And so there's a couple mechanisms if they're truly, but I 00:47:38.289 --> 00:47:40.280 think that there is, I think 00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:42.130 that we would all agree that there's certain enhancements 00:47:42.130 --> 00:47:43.280 that could be done to the website 00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:46.599 just to make that a little cleaner, I think we would not 00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:48.519 post names of property owners 00:47:48.519 --> 00:47:50.920 but it's possible we could put the list somehow, I just 00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:52.519 would have to see the practicality 00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:53.519 of that. 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:56.420 Yeah, and not even, I think you're, again, the spirit of it 00:47:56.420 --> 00:47:57.679 is to be lean and not labor 00:47:57.679 --> 00:47:58.679 intensive. 00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:00.869 Or the map maybe because the map will show you if it's your 00:48:00.869 --> 00:48:01.960 house or not, you know. 00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:05.639 Yes, yeah, if you kind of, but I think kind of the spirit 00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:07.880 of it is exactly what you said, 00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:10.639 someone driving by seeing a sign and wanting to call for 00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:13.239 information, so here's sign locations, 00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:16.670 you know, just listed and if you have, if you think this is 00:48:16.670 --> 00:48:18.239 near your house or you're 00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:22.210 curious about it, then call this number type thing just 00:48:22.210 --> 00:48:24.559 because the sign is so difficult 00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:29.079 to read, it's just a thought. 00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:33.050 And then if we could, in your presentation, did you have an 00:48:33.050 --> 00:48:34.920 example of what we send out 00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:35.920 by chance? 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:40.280 I did actually. 00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:44.840 I'm curious if... 00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:48.519 There's this one, it's, I think it's a 200 foot 00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:51.280 notification buffer and then the response 00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:53.159 sheet that accompanies that. 00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:58.920 Okay, and I'm curious and I guess there's not because they 00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:01.760 have to reply back but maybe 00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:03.000 that too. 00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:06.969 Is there any, have we looked at a postcard to send versus 00:49:06.969 --> 00:49:08.199 an envelope? 00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:12.119 Because I'm not as concerned about people throwing it away 00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:14.480 but at the same time, costwise, 00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:15.960 it's a little cheaper just to put it and... 00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:17.400 Just to put it in the envelope. 00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:20.650 Right, well just to put it on a postcard and mail it and 00:49:20.650 --> 00:49:22.840 then you eliminate that, it says 00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:26.170 resident on it and they, they may at all, it all may get 00:49:26.170 --> 00:49:28.039 recycled anyway but we saved 00:49:28.039 --> 00:49:30.539 the envelope and you can't say you didn't see what was in 00:49:30.539 --> 00:49:31.920 it because it's printed on 00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:32.920 it. 00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:34.400 What you threw away is all the information. 00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:36.119 I think some cities do have postcards. 00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:38.690 I think for us, I think the challenge always is and it's 00:49:38.690 --> 00:49:40.280 kind of a balancing of things. 00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:43.309 It's balancing of information provision and a balancing 00:49:43.309 --> 00:49:45.320 just like with the certified mail. 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:48.989 We're trying to balance the, kind of like making sure that 00:49:48.989 --> 00:49:50.559 we have evidence that we 00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:52.960 did mail it just to have that at our hand but we're also 00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:54.679 trying to balance convenience. 00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:57.239 I think if you look at what the kind of information, I mean 00:49:57.239 --> 00:49:58.960 just looking at the website, there 00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:02.090 is two full pages of information so they can fully 00:50:02.090 --> 00:50:04.760 understand what's being considered and 00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:07.519 then there's the notification letter so I think it's 00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:08.280 possible. 00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:10.679 I'm trying to think if I've, where I've seen, most of the 00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:12.039 times I have seen letters but 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:14.920 I've heard rumor of postcards but I think usually when 00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:16.679 there's a postcard, it's in the 00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:19.730 envelope with the larger explained to them so it's kind of 00:50:19.730 --> 00:50:21.760 a balance between enough information 00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:25.119 that they understand so maybe the answer is a little bit of 00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:25.639 both. 00:50:25.639 --> 00:50:28.480 I think if you send a postcard it's going to be hard to get 00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:29.840 it all on there but maybe 00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:30.840 not. 00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:33.219 I don't know if we can see how to look at that but I think 00:50:33.219 --> 00:50:34.679 postcards within an envelope 00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:37.960 is one easy way to kind of get it thrown back to us. 00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:41.900 Yeah I would be very tempted to see, even if it's a larger, 00:50:41.900 --> 00:50:43.719 maybe it's a custom sized 00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:44.719 postcard. 00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:46.480 Maybe that would be the answer, a bigger postcard. 00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:50.409 But then maybe just for the 500 feet courtesy notice, one 00:50:50.409 --> 00:50:52.360 you save the, I mean I think the 00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:56.079 postage is cheaper, you save it on the envelope and then 00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:58.159 also you can't say you didn't see 00:50:58.159 --> 00:50:59.159 it because. 00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:00.440 Yeah I guess that's what I'm thinking. 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:03.519 I guess when I first thought postcard I thought postcard. 00:51:03.519 --> 00:51:05.139 But you're right, if it was on the bigger things that you 00:51:05.139 --> 00:51:06.079 typically get in the mail, 00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:08.750 you could probably get all the information on that and then 00:51:08.750 --> 00:51:09.920 have it on both sides. 00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:13.369 So that might be something that I think that probably would 00:51:13.369 --> 00:51:14.880 be a good suggestion. 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:17.789 Yeah I mean because, and I'll move on to my last deal, 00:51:17.789 --> 00:51:19.719 because none of the political ads 00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:20.719 I didn't have to open. 00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:21.719 They were all right. 00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:22.719 Yeah there is something to be said. 00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:23.719 That is a really good argument. 00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:24.719 Yeah there it is. 00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:25.719 You can't throw it away. 00:51:25.719 --> 00:51:26.340 And sometimes if they see it from the city they may think, 00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:26.719 oh I think for a second I 00:51:26.719 --> 00:51:31.079 think from the city. 00:51:31.079 --> 00:51:33.760 I hate recycling faces but it's okay. 00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:40.670 So then there's the last thing is I think it's important 00:51:40.670 --> 00:51:43.639 for us as a body to kind of 00:51:43.639 --> 00:51:49.199 maybe spend some time understanding what is important. 00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:54.239 Because for example, Ms. Sullivan is so kind of right in 00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:56.840 and she has and she points out 00:51:56.840 --> 00:52:01.360 Buc-E's, but Buc-E's isn't important to everyone. 00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:03.199 I mean it's not a red flag to everyone. 00:52:03.199 --> 00:52:07.949 So when you're talking about notice how far for specific 00:52:07.949 --> 00:52:10.559 issues, for specific building 00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:14.280 types, that's not unified. 00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:17.250 So when we're talking about putting a process in place or 00:52:17.250 --> 00:52:18.760 amending a process that has a 00:52:18.760 --> 00:52:24.449 serve all projects, I think it's a little difficult to then 00:52:24.449 --> 00:52:27.159 start earmarking specific 00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:30.800 projects and if we're going to, what does that mean? 00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:34.360 What is that threshold to say, okay this project is unique 00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:36.360 because it meets these three or 00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:38.079 four qualifications? 00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:41.369 And so that's just kind of a general question for down the 00:52:41.369 --> 00:52:41.880 road. 00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:45.969 If we were going to look at specific projects and adjusting 00:52:45.969 --> 00:52:48.599 the process for and a particular 00:52:48.599 --> 00:52:53.550 item, I would want to spend some time talking about what 00:52:53.550 --> 00:52:55.440 qualifies for that. 00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:56.440 For larger buffers. 00:52:56.440 --> 00:52:57.440 Exactly. 00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:58.440 Exactly. 00:52:58.440 --> 00:52:59.440 But thank you very much. 00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:00.440 Great presentation. 00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:01.440 You're welcome. 00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:02.440 I've got a full board. 00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:05.960 I'm just going to make kind of a couple observations before 00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:08.559 I recognize our next request to speak. 00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:11.280 We've got one other item to hear in our work session. 00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:15.199 I'm told it's a 10 to 15 minute presentation. 00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:17.400 And then we cannot eat in this room. 00:53:17.400 --> 00:53:21.199 So we'll have to go downstairs to eat. 00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:24.010 So in looking at the time, we can always continue this item 00:53:24.010 --> 00:53:25.519 if we need to bring it back for 00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:26.519 another work session. 00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:30.099 I'm going to say we'll go about another 10 minutes on this 00:53:30.099 --> 00:53:30.679 topic. 00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:33.500 If we're not able to get through, we're going to table it 00:53:33.500 --> 00:53:34.559 and bring it back. 00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:37.179 We'll take a break and go get some food and then come back 00:53:37.179 --> 00:53:38.920 and hear our last presentation. 00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:44.679 And so next request to speak, Commissioner Taylor. 00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:45.900 Thank you, Chair. 00:53:45.900 --> 00:53:49.480 So I believe this is the third major presentation I've seen 00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:51.679 on notification in five years I've 00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:53.960 been on this commission. 00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:54.960 Because it's a major issue. 00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:57.780 It comes up in a lot of public hearings. 00:53:57.780 --> 00:53:59.280 So it's an important issue. 00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:02.150 And I'd just like to run through what I think are the most 00:54:02.150 --> 00:54:03.840 important and potentially the 00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:05.280 best options. 00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:08.760 The multifamily has been an intractable issue. 00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:10.320 Things go in next to an apartment complex. 00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:12.340 There are 100 units. 00:54:12.340 --> 00:54:15.659 And one notice gets sent to the office and one notice gets 00:54:15.659 --> 00:54:17.840 sent to the owner in California. 00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:20.670 And so we've had complaints about that in the past perenn 00:54:20.670 --> 00:54:21.239 ially. 00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:23.320 And there's not an easy solution. 00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:26.449 I'd love to keep looking at creative ideas, but I realize 00:54:26.449 --> 00:54:28.039 that that's also a very hard 00:54:28.039 --> 00:54:29.960 problem to solve. 00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:35.400 I do agree that certified mail actually becomes a barrier. 00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:38.550 If it just had tracking to know it was delivered, that 00:54:38.550 --> 00:54:40.019 would be reasonable. 00:54:40.019 --> 00:54:43.480 Or even I think most first class mail, it's good enough. 00:54:43.480 --> 00:54:46.849 But I think that the barrier of you get a sticky note on 00:54:46.849 --> 00:54:48.719 your door, which may or may 00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:50.159 not be there when you get home. 00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:54.280 You may or may not use the front door, so forth and so on. 00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:56.800 And then you have to take time, usually for me on a 00:54:56.800 --> 00:54:58.760 Saturday morning, to go to the post 00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:00.840 office and pick up the letter. 00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:06.079 It's just a lot harder than just first class mail. 00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:08.880 The large postcard idea I think is also really good. 00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:12.050 At lower cost, and you can have all the information right 00:55:12.050 --> 00:55:12.639 there. 00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:15.500 You don't have to -- a lot of people don't want to open 00:55:15.500 --> 00:55:16.360 resident. 00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:18.840 They assume it's junk mail. 00:55:18.840 --> 00:55:22.230 But if it has -- there's a rezoning case at this address, 00:55:22.230 --> 00:55:24.360 they either care or don't, and 00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:27.960 they'll have the information right there. 00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:30.639 I think that more can be done through the website. 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:33.639 I know Southlake has changed the website now, but they used 00:55:33.639 --> 00:55:35.019 to feature on the home page 00:55:35.019 --> 00:55:41.039 of Southlake every single public hearing they had scheduled 00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:41.480 . 00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:43.679 The current projects page is really great. 00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:46.480 I was just browsing through it. 00:55:46.480 --> 00:55:48.829 But it is like five clicks deep, and I didn't know it 00:55:48.829 --> 00:55:50.460 existed until you mentioned it. 00:55:50.460 --> 00:55:55.590 So if there was a way to make the current projects page 00:55:55.590 --> 00:55:59.920 more visible to city residents, 00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:02.039 this stuff gets shared on Facebook now. 00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:04.550 More people see public hearings on Facebook and Nextdoor 00:56:04.550 --> 00:56:06.039 than they do in the Net and Record 00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:07.239 Chronicle. 00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:11.210 So if there was an easy way for somebody to repost it, 00:56:11.210 --> 00:56:13.820 because normally what you see is 00:56:13.820 --> 00:56:18.559 photos of the letter instead of, you know, a nice little 00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:20.119 informational web page that 00:56:20.119 --> 00:56:23.400 we've already built on the current projects site. 00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:28.139 So if there's a way to increase the visibility of the web 00:56:28.139 --> 00:56:31.599 aspect, I think that would be beneficial, 00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:34.329 and it would end up letting citizens do your work for you 00:56:34.329 --> 00:56:35.920 because they'll share it among 00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:39.280 their friends, they'll email it or put it on social media 00:56:39.280 --> 00:56:40.280 and so forth. 00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:43.989 And you won't have so many people saying they hadn't heard 00:56:43.989 --> 00:56:45.599 about it or they had to hear 00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:49.570 it from a neighbor who knocked on their door or something 00:56:49.570 --> 00:56:50.679 like that. 00:56:50.679 --> 00:56:51.679 Thank you. 00:56:51.679 --> 00:56:52.679 Thank you. 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:53.679 Commissioner Dudowitz. 00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:56.679 A lot of good comments. 00:56:56.679 --> 00:56:59.800 Ticking them off also. 00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:03.059 I have been a participant of a number of zoning requests 00:57:03.059 --> 00:57:04.039 and changes. 00:57:04.039 --> 00:57:07.179 I can tell you a certified mail comes, but I also get a 00:57:07.179 --> 00:57:09.360 letter in the mail and duplicate. 00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:13.809 What I would suggest is in that letter that gets mailed to 00:57:13.809 --> 00:57:15.960 me personally or to say the 00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:17.949 certified letter has been mailed and this is a duplicate, 00:57:17.949 --> 00:57:18.920 therefore I don't have to 00:57:18.920 --> 00:57:19.920 go down to the post office. 00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:22.039 I already know I have gotten notice. 00:57:22.039 --> 00:57:25.710 Another question is we all know newspapers are becoming a 00:57:25.710 --> 00:57:27.000 dying dinosaur. 00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:30.460 And I head out here to social media as the way to put this 00:57:30.460 --> 00:57:31.440 out there. 00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:34.670 I think we could do a better job of that and especially on 00:57:34.670 --> 00:57:36.360 the city's web page to where 00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:37.360 it is. 00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:40.079 Somebody has mentioned already a specific web or touch or 00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:41.519 some notification there. 00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:44.639 I think that's a great, great idea. 00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.880 Also the city does send out yearly a, I call it the state 00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:48.840 of the city. 00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:51.889 We got one in the mail, nice little brochure, talks about 00:57:51.889 --> 00:57:53.559 all the accolades the city has 00:57:53.559 --> 00:57:54.559 done. 00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:56.119 There could be a flyer put in there. 00:57:56.119 --> 00:57:58.570 There could be another section that says here's how you 00:57:58.570 --> 00:58:00.119 find out about what's going on in 00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:04.530 your city with regards to meetings and/or changes and here 00:58:04.530 --> 00:58:06.079 's what you can do. 00:58:06.079 --> 00:58:10.000 Similar to that other piece that you had there. 00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:13.719 On the apartment side, I was going through that too. 00:58:13.719 --> 00:58:16.429 The issue there is just signs and if you could on that 00:58:16.429 --> 00:58:18.320 property put the signs that their 00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:21.559 entrances are in the parking lots, multiple signs. 00:58:21.559 --> 00:58:23.889 Now is that the responsibility of the property owner or the 00:58:23.889 --> 00:58:24.320 city? 00:58:24.320 --> 00:58:25.320 I don't know. 00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:28.199 I don't think that's the responsibility that could be taken 00:58:28.199 --> 00:58:29.599 up as we go forward here. 00:58:29.599 --> 00:58:32.099 Now in the newspaper, that's in the back section back there 00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:33.719 and the classified and it says 00:58:33.719 --> 00:58:34.719 notice. 00:58:34.719 --> 00:58:36.840 It wouldn't hurt that once in a while that you post 00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:38.440 someplace else in a newspaper that 00:58:38.440 --> 00:58:41.380 you do that so that people say okay, that's another way of 00:58:41.380 --> 00:58:42.440 communicating. 00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:47.760 So these are just again suggestions. 00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:51.260 But I think notification is always going to be an issue and 00:58:51.260 --> 00:58:52.880 the only way to solve it is 00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:55.849 to note more of the, I call it the social media Facebook 00:58:55.849 --> 00:58:57.320 and that kind of stuff. 00:58:57.320 --> 00:58:58.320 Agreed. 00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:01.980 I can't remember any time ever hearing from a respondent or 00:59:01.980 --> 00:59:02.800 citizen. 00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:04.440 I read this in the newspaper. 00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:05.559 I don't think it is the most. 00:59:05.559 --> 00:59:09.610 I think that it's just maybe left over from I think the way 00:59:09.610 --> 00:59:11.880 we used to mostly communicate 00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:15.579 and the local government code has updated requiring 00:59:15.579 --> 00:59:18.079 allowing for website publication 00:59:18.079 --> 00:59:20.800 but still has that published notice requirement. 00:59:20.800 --> 00:59:23.949 I think until there's a universal sort of way that they'll 00:59:23.949 --> 00:59:25.519 probably stay with that. 00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:28.519 But I agree that social media is probably the most 00:59:28.519 --> 00:59:29.679 effective way. 00:59:29.679 --> 00:59:32.119 It's something we can add to it easily and test it. 00:59:32.119 --> 00:59:35.869 As far as the 750 foot, which is not a bad idea, but I 00:59:35.869 --> 00:59:37.920 think it could be tested in the 00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:41.500 sense of how many respondents do we get from the 500 and 00:59:41.500 --> 00:59:42.599 the 200? 00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:46.309 I don't think the 500 have a way of even responding but it 00:59:46.309 --> 00:59:48.199 would be a mechanism by putting it 00:59:48.199 --> 00:59:50.800 in there to say hey check this off and send it back in with 00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:52.079 hey you're going to come or 00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:54.909 not to come and then take it out and test it and see how 00:59:54.909 --> 00:59:56.559 many more responses you get. 00:59:56.559 --> 00:59:59.619 If you don't get any responses people aren't interested in 00:59:59.619 --> 01:00:00.519 that far out. 01:00:00.519 --> 01:00:01.519 Just don't do it. 01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:04.760 We could also look at folks who spoke at public hearings 01:00:04.760 --> 01:00:06.519 and we can take a look at, you know, 01:00:06.519 --> 01:00:09.400 but they do typically give us their addresses and we can 01:00:09.400 --> 01:00:10.360 sort of gauge. 01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:13.389 That might be a quick way to sort of research who's getting 01:00:13.389 --> 01:00:14.960 the notice and who cares. 01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:20.159 That's another thing in my little notes here. 01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:22.630 Notification of neighborhood meetings and just meetings in 01:00:22.630 --> 01:00:24.000 general come the same way, 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.679 certified mail and letters. 01:00:26.679 --> 01:00:33.079 Are those also posted in the newspaper and on the website? 01:00:33.079 --> 01:00:35.170 The neighborhood meetings I do not believe are posted on 01:00:35.170 --> 01:00:35.719 the website. 01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:40.469 We require that they send that out to 500 residents within 01:00:40.469 --> 01:00:42.679 500 feet but since it is, 01:00:42.679 --> 01:00:45.119 no we don't ask for that extra step. 01:00:45.119 --> 01:00:48.400 Is that done by the city and/or the developer? 01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:51.619 We provide the list and the applicant is the one who does 01:00:51.619 --> 01:00:53.159 the mailing and usually they 01:00:53.159 --> 01:00:57.719 provide us a courtesy copy of the mailed notice. 01:00:57.719 --> 01:00:59.849 They provide, okay here's the notice we sent out and here's 01:00:59.849 --> 01:01:00.760 the list of people. 01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:03.909 We give them the list and then usually we ask for, they 01:01:03.909 --> 01:01:05.559 provide us a copy of what the 01:01:05.559 --> 01:01:06.559 flyer looked like. 01:01:06.559 --> 01:01:07.559 Okay. 01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:08.559 Just in so we have some of those. 01:01:08.559 --> 01:01:11.860 It's not required but and we attend the meetings as I 01:01:11.860 --> 01:01:14.360 stated earlier, we the case manager and 01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:16.079 also myself attend those meetings as well. 01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:19.050 And in the presentations that we get, do we, is it part of 01:01:19.050 --> 01:01:21.079 the presentation that the developer 01:01:21.079 --> 01:01:26.880 did not have a neighborhood meeting or he did? 01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:27.880 We usually know your reports. 01:01:27.880 --> 01:01:29.969 I don't know if it's always in the presentation but it's 01:01:29.969 --> 01:01:31.360 usually in the reports the developer 01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:35.320 had a meeting, neighborhood meeting on such and such date. 01:01:35.320 --> 01:01:38.750 I think that if they did not have a meeting that would also 01:01:38.750 --> 01:01:40.480 be in the report as well. 01:01:40.480 --> 01:01:41.480 Okay. 01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:42.480 Thank you. 01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:43.480 Commissioner Rossell. 01:01:43.480 --> 01:01:48.320 I'll keep it short because I know we're on a time crunch. 01:01:48.320 --> 01:01:51.679 I appreciate your presentation and all the commissioner's 01:01:51.679 --> 01:01:52.679 input to this. 01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:55.280 I would definitely echo the social media. 01:01:55.280 --> 01:01:58.159 Does Didn't Plan In Zoning have a page on Facebook? 01:01:58.159 --> 01:01:59.760 I do not believe you do. 01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:02.280 I think the closest thing you have is our development 01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:02.920 website. 01:02:02.920 --> 01:02:04.829 It seems like low hanging fruit to make it Didn't Plan In Z 01:02:04.829 --> 01:02:05.400 oning page. 01:02:05.400 --> 01:02:08.199 People like it and they can share whatever gets posted. 01:02:08.199 --> 01:02:10.760 That's as far as I know free. 01:02:10.760 --> 01:02:14.599 A couple thoughts I had on some of the suggestions listed 01:02:14.599 --> 01:02:15.320 today. 01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:19.500 Just for clarification, the 500 foot notice is being dupl 01:02:19.500 --> 01:02:22.320 icated to the 200 foot, correct? 01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:23.320 Yes. 01:02:23.320 --> 01:02:24.320 It goes to the resident. 01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:26.650 The 500 foot is just the folks who live in the house and 01:02:26.650 --> 01:02:28.239 the 200 foot is to satisfy local 01:02:28.239 --> 01:02:30.360 government code to the property owner. 01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:32.559 And the 500 foot is not a certified? 01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:33.559 It is not. 01:02:33.559 --> 01:02:36.010 So when we talk about certified being a barrier, that dupl 01:02:36.010 --> 01:02:37.599 icated letter that they potentially 01:02:37.599 --> 01:02:39.000 get wouldn't be certified. 01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:40.000 It wouldn't be. 01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:41.000 So they should be getting it. 01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:42.000 They wouldn't have the response form. 01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:44.659 But they certainly would be notified of the -- and I think 01:02:44.659 --> 01:02:45.599 it probably is a good idea 01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:48.820 to put Commissioner Dudowitz's comment about saying if you 01:02:48.820 --> 01:02:51.199 are within 200 feet, the 200 01:02:51.199 --> 01:02:55.920 feet, you have also been sent a certified list. 01:02:55.920 --> 01:02:58.619 I don't think you'd have to -- I think you could just put 01:02:58.619 --> 01:03:00.440 it on every single 500 foot 01:03:00.440 --> 01:03:03.090 notification because they would put both buffers and say if 01:03:03.090 --> 01:03:04.880 you also are within the 200 feet 01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:07.119 buffer, you have also been sent a certified note. 01:03:07.119 --> 01:03:08.119 Sure. 01:03:08.119 --> 01:03:09.119 Because they would get that one without the -- 01:03:09.119 --> 01:03:10.719 That way they know and they don't have to go pick it up. 01:03:10.719 --> 01:03:12.760 But they do have that little response sheet. 01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:15.570 But I know at least on one occasion, a case that I was 01:03:15.570 --> 01:03:17.880 presented, that somebody just showed 01:03:17.880 --> 01:03:21.340 up and they didn't have a response, but they said I'm in 01:03:21.340 --> 01:03:22.440 opposition. 01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:25.159 And then when that went to counsel, it was noted that there 01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:27.039 was a property owner in opposition. 01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:29.949 So it's not -- they don't have to submit the form if they 01:03:29.949 --> 01:03:31.480 are at a public meeting and say 01:03:31.480 --> 01:03:33.280 we're in opposition, then it's counted as opposition if 01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:34.639 they're within the 200 feet. 01:03:34.639 --> 01:03:35.639 Sure. 01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:38.760 And then the last thing I have is in the discussion between 01:03:38.760 --> 01:03:40.880 envelope and postcard, strangely enough, 01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:42.519 I've read studies about this. 01:03:42.519 --> 01:03:46.030 And letters that are in an envelope, the response rate for 01:03:46.030 --> 01:03:48.360 those are exponentially higher than 01:03:48.360 --> 01:03:49.360 postcards. 01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:50.559 Postcards are just easy to throw away. 01:03:50.559 --> 01:03:53.090 And there's a personal buy-in when someone actually opens a 01:03:53.090 --> 01:03:53.599 letter. 01:03:53.599 --> 01:03:56.980 So the response to letters is if we're looking at a poor 01:03:56.980 --> 01:03:59.639 response rate, I think using postcards 01:03:59.639 --> 01:04:00.639 is actually less than that. 01:04:00.639 --> 01:04:02.730 I don't know about you, but you can think through how many 01:04:02.730 --> 01:04:03.760 postcards just throw away 01:04:03.760 --> 01:04:06.920 when, at any rate, the studies show that letters have a 01:04:06.920 --> 01:04:08.480 higher response rate. 01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:10.730 So I wouldn't be an advocate for postcards considering the 01:04:10.730 --> 01:04:11.800 studies have already been 01:04:11.800 --> 01:04:12.800 out there. 01:04:12.800 --> 01:04:13.800 That's all I got. 01:04:13.800 --> 01:04:18.480 I have one final comment and we'll get on. 01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:20.880 On the certified mail, I think there's a process you can 01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:22.760 use at the post office called a certificate 01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:23.760 of mailing. 01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:25.599 And it's the same type of process. 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:28.440 It's a certification that the letter's been mailed, but it 01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:29.860 doesn't require a response 01:04:29.860 --> 01:04:33.000 from the person that the letter is sent to. 01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:34.000 Just certifies it was physically mailed. 01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:36.119 Yeah, you just get a stamp and it says, "Yep, send them a 01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:36.639 letter." 01:04:36.639 --> 01:04:39.340 So that's maybe another option that-- Maybe that's the 01:04:39.340 --> 01:04:40.320 compromise, yeah. 01:04:40.320 --> 01:04:43.800 So anyway, thank you for a great presentation. 01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:47.179 I know we've had a lot of questions and I think the city 01:04:47.179 --> 01:04:47.840 knows-- 01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:48.949 Just to get some clarification, I'm sorry, just to get some 01:04:48.949 --> 01:04:49.400 clarification. 01:04:49.400 --> 01:04:52.650 Would the commission like us to further go forward with the 01:04:52.650 --> 01:04:54.039 idea of moving away from 01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:55.039 certified? 01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:57.329 It would require an ordinance change and getting-- Is the 01:04:57.329 --> 01:04:58.760 general feeling of the commission that 01:04:58.760 --> 01:05:02.760 that is a barrier, I guess is what I'm asking. 01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:03.760 Okay. 01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:04.760 I'm indifferent, so. 01:05:04.760 --> 01:05:05.760 Yeah, I think it's made some tracking mechanism certified. 01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:06.760 It doesn't have to be. 01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:18.079 I think that is-- As long as we have a tracking mechanism 01:05:18.079 --> 01:05:19.239 so that answers the question when 01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:22.440 somebody-- I didn't get notice, well, it was mailed. 01:05:22.440 --> 01:05:24.599 But in a certified situation, you do have a signature. 01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:28.440 Well, he may not have gotten it, but his wife got it or his 01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:30.639 other partner got it or somebody 01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:32.239 got it because there is a signature. 01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:36.039 We would have that with the option provided by-- 01:05:36.039 --> 01:05:37.039 Yeah. 01:05:37.039 --> 01:05:41.829 So that's something to think about in going forward without 01:05:41.829 --> 01:05:44.599 the certified certification. 01:05:44.599 --> 01:05:45.599 Thank you. 01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:46.599 Great presentation. 01:05:46.599 --> 01:05:50.300 I guess the pleasure of the commission, you guys want to 01:05:50.300 --> 01:05:52.360 break and try to eat or you want 01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:54.860 to go ahead on and let Beverly make her next presentation 01:05:54.860 --> 01:05:56.119 and then we'll eat and if we 01:05:56.119 --> 01:05:58.920 just-- I think we have a very short agenda this evening. 01:05:58.920 --> 01:06:02.039 If we are just going to get a light start on our meeting, 01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:03.639 would you rather prefer to 01:06:03.639 --> 01:06:04.639 do that? 01:06:04.639 --> 01:06:06.639 Her presentation is three minutes. 01:06:06.639 --> 01:06:11.389 As much time as she needs, I was told 10 to 15 kind of is 01:06:11.389 --> 01:06:12.119 just a-- 01:06:12.119 --> 01:06:13.119 There you go. 01:06:13.119 --> 01:06:16.829 If you don't mind, please proceed on to our next workshop 01:06:16.829 --> 01:06:19.400 session item in your next presentation. 01:06:19.400 --> 01:06:20.400 Thank you. 01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:21.400 You're welcome. 01:06:21.400 --> 01:06:25.119 This is in response to Commissioner Bruegel's request for 01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:27.320 information about conservation 01:06:27.320 --> 01:06:28.320 development. 01:06:28.320 --> 01:06:31.349 And so staff kind of-- we've been kind of want to present 01:06:31.349 --> 01:06:32.760 this and I think that was 01:06:32.760 --> 01:06:34.769 a-- we appreciate that invitation to present this 01:06:34.769 --> 01:06:35.519 information. 01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:37.119 So I'll just kind of get right into that presentation. 01:06:37.119 --> 01:06:40.960 I thought I would start with this quote. 01:06:40.960 --> 01:06:43.440 I did some research because there's a lot of information 01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:44.840 out there and a lot of websites 01:06:44.840 --> 01:06:47.119 and a lot of pros and cons. 01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:49.559 But I like this and there's some typos in here but it's a 01:06:49.559 --> 01:06:50.400 direct quote. 01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:52.550 Most of the development in the United States, 90% or 01:06:52.550 --> 01:06:53.960 something like that and this is from 01:06:53.960 --> 01:06:57.570 the Milwaukee mayor, John Norquist, it was in 2003, is 01:06:57.570 --> 01:06:59.599 about new development on the edge. 01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:01.789 If we ignore that and just concentrate on infill, the edge 01:07:01.789 --> 01:07:03.119 city will never repair itself. 01:07:03.119 --> 01:07:05.210 It'd be a mistake for people who care about cities and 01:07:05.210 --> 01:07:06.599 urban design to assume that green 01:07:06.599 --> 01:07:09.760 field development is bad because it is going to happen. 01:07:09.760 --> 01:07:12.269 And if it doesn't improve it, it will overwhelm whatever 01:07:12.269 --> 01:07:13.920 infill we are doing in the cities. 01:07:13.920 --> 01:07:15.639 And kind of what I got from that and why I started with 01:07:15.639 --> 01:07:16.800 that because it talks about edge 01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:20.280 development which is also what our comprehensive plan talks 01:07:20.280 --> 01:07:22.079 about is edge development. 01:07:22.079 --> 01:07:24.940 And so I like this because it essentially says is that edge 01:07:24.940 --> 01:07:26.280 development's coming. 01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:29.659 We have constant pressure for residential subdivisions on 01:07:29.659 --> 01:07:30.400 the edge. 01:07:30.400 --> 01:07:33.530 Every city that I have worked in has a great deal of 01:07:33.530 --> 01:07:36.460 pressure about new higher density subdivisions 01:07:36.460 --> 01:07:37.599 occurring on the edge of town. 01:07:37.599 --> 01:07:40.730 This is a trend I've asked two or three developers, most 01:07:40.730 --> 01:07:43.119 recently a local developer, why? 01:07:43.119 --> 01:07:44.880 Why are we seeing density increases? 01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:47.880 The state development which is a zoning category that every 01:07:47.880 --> 01:07:49.480 city I've worked in for the past 01:07:49.480 --> 01:07:52.719 10 years has and I've yet to see any new estate development 01:07:52.719 --> 01:07:52.960 . 01:07:52.960 --> 01:07:55.730 It seems to be this constant pressure for higher density 01:07:55.730 --> 01:07:57.400 development and it is occurring 01:07:57.400 --> 01:07:59.989 in green fields typically because that's where it makes the 01:07:59.989 --> 01:08:00.679 most sense. 01:08:00.679 --> 01:08:02.440 So this is where it's going. 01:08:02.440 --> 01:08:04.760 This is where we see it going on a regular basis and most 01:08:04.760 --> 01:08:06.000 of the subdivisions we're presenting 01:08:06.000 --> 01:08:08.280 to you are typically edge developments. 01:08:08.280 --> 01:08:11.539 And so I think this is a really appropriate time to take a 01:08:11.539 --> 01:08:13.119 look at how we can address 01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:15.000 that as we move forward and what are some guiding 01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:16.600 principles that we want to take forward 01:08:16.600 --> 01:08:22.720 based on our comprehensive plan. 01:08:22.720 --> 01:08:25.399 This is directly from the Denton Plan 2030. 01:08:25.399 --> 01:08:26.560 It's a direct quote from that. 01:08:26.560 --> 01:08:29.680 It says as much of the edge of Denton is characterized as 01:08:29.680 --> 01:08:31.840 rural land that possesses a character of 01:08:31.840 --> 01:08:35.479 Denton's past and natural environment that is cherished. 01:08:35.479 --> 01:08:37.289 Conservation development is recommended as the primary 01:08:37.289 --> 01:08:38.399 means for managing the interface 01:08:38.399 --> 01:08:42.090 of the edge and they also talk about the edge of our 01:08:42.090 --> 01:08:43.220 community. 01:08:43.220 --> 01:08:45.199 Conservation development is an approach to the design of 01:08:45.199 --> 01:08:46.359 rural residential subdivision 01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:50.329 which is highly suited to agricultural fringe areas and 01:08:50.329 --> 01:08:52.840 also I think to add to that natural 01:08:52.840 --> 01:08:56.500 resource protection where the retention of rural character 01:08:56.500 --> 01:08:58.199 in open space is desired. 01:08:58.199 --> 01:09:00.560 So this just is an image and we'll talk a little bit about 01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:01.920 conservation development. 01:09:01.920 --> 01:09:05.119 And I'll try and talk about some of the pros and cons and 01:09:05.119 --> 01:09:07.039 challenges with it as well. 01:09:07.039 --> 01:09:09.979 Essentially a concept is applied by permitting smaller cl 01:09:09.979 --> 01:09:12.079 ustered lots in return for preservation 01:09:12.079 --> 01:09:14.800 of generous open space, amounts of open space. 01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:18.260 It involves density bonuses, typically lot size reductions 01:09:18.260 --> 01:09:20.039 and then ultimately open space 01:09:20.039 --> 01:09:22.439 preservation. 01:09:22.439 --> 01:09:27.180 And this is what we would typically see as a typical subdiv 01:09:27.180 --> 01:09:27.859 ision. 01:09:27.859 --> 01:09:30.210 And this is sort of what that subdivision might look like 01:09:30.210 --> 01:09:31.600 if we applied some conservation 01:09:31.600 --> 01:09:36.600 development principles to it. 01:09:36.600 --> 01:09:40.399 And then just another illustration of a raw tract of land 01:09:40.399 --> 01:09:42.520 and how a typical subdivision 01:09:42.520 --> 01:09:44.869 could -- this looks fairly large estate development could 01:09:44.869 --> 01:09:46.880 potentially be laid out and then a conservation 01:09:46.880 --> 01:09:51.619 development and how that might look like -- how that might 01:09:51.619 --> 01:09:54.359 look on the same tract of land. 01:09:54.359 --> 01:09:56.850 There's been I think a lot of discussion about cluster 01:09:56.850 --> 01:09:59.300 development, conservation development. 01:09:59.300 --> 01:10:02.989 Cluster literature sometimes uses them interchangeably, but 01:10:02.989 --> 01:10:05.239 it seems like the more thoughtful and 01:10:05.239 --> 01:10:08.220 thoroughly researched literature seems to suggest there is 01:10:08.220 --> 01:10:09.119 a difference. 01:10:09.119 --> 01:10:11.210 Cluster development is something that is generally 01:10:11.210 --> 01:10:11.800 encouraged. 01:10:11.800 --> 01:10:14.119 It is a type of development. 01:10:14.119 --> 01:10:17.699 Conservation development is much more specific and tied to 01:10:17.699 --> 01:10:19.119 certain processes. 01:10:19.119 --> 01:10:21.869 Cluster development calls for a set aside of open space, 01:10:21.869 --> 01:10:23.359 but doesn't really apply any 01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:26.720 development criteria, design criteria to that. 01:10:26.720 --> 01:10:28.640 There is a higher standard for conservation development for 01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:29.640 quantity, quality, and the 01:10:29.640 --> 01:10:33.039 configuration of what that open space looks like. 01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:34.680 Cluster development is often in conditional use. 01:10:34.680 --> 01:10:36.500 It could be done through planned development or specific 01:10:36.500 --> 01:10:37.520 use permit or conditional use 01:10:37.520 --> 01:10:39.640 permits. 01:10:39.640 --> 01:10:43.760 Conservation development, like smart codes, are by right. 01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:45.899 So there are development and design criteria assigned to 01:10:45.899 --> 01:10:46.239 them. 01:10:46.239 --> 01:10:47.680 You can do it by right. 01:10:47.680 --> 01:10:50.810 It is an argument that basically makes it a little bit 01:10:50.810 --> 01:10:53.039 easier for the developer to embrace 01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:56.260 it rather than having to run through a process or run the 01:10:56.260 --> 01:10:58.720 gauntlet through a planned development 01:10:58.720 --> 01:10:59.720 or a conditional use permit. 01:10:59.720 --> 01:11:00.720 It is allowed by right. 01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:02.760 If you do these things, you can do it. 01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:03.880 There's no approval to it. 01:11:03.880 --> 01:11:06.779 It's very much like a lot of the things that we're trying 01:11:06.779 --> 01:11:08.319 to move towards in terms of our 01:11:08.319 --> 01:11:09.319 code development. 01:11:09.319 --> 01:11:11.649 That if these are the standards, we all agree to the 01:11:11.649 --> 01:11:12.359 standards. 01:11:12.359 --> 01:11:16.319 You can do it by right if you meet the standards. 01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:19.149 Cluster development usually calls for 25, 30 percent of the 01:11:19.149 --> 01:11:20.060 gross tract area. 01:11:20.060 --> 01:11:22.050 Conservation development usually looks at the net buildable 01:11:22.050 --> 01:11:23.239 land area that's not constrained 01:11:23.239 --> 01:11:24.619 by wetlands and floodplain. 01:11:24.619 --> 01:11:28.750 That can be in some cases onerous, but definitely there's a 01:11:28.750 --> 01:11:30.359 difference there. 01:11:30.359 --> 01:11:32.680 Conservation development allows for noncommon open space. 01:11:32.680 --> 01:11:36.649 I think they had some examples that they had provided of 01:11:36.649 --> 01:11:39.119 community gardens that could be 01:11:39.119 --> 01:11:44.020 privately owned and some other open space areas that could 01:11:44.020 --> 01:11:46.159 be not necessarily owned 01:11:46.159 --> 01:11:54.520 by the public or the park system or maybe the HOA as well. 01:11:54.520 --> 01:11:58.310 Conservation development incentivized conservation design 01:11:58.310 --> 01:11:59.359 with density. 01:11:59.359 --> 01:12:01.789 It depends on how far a city would want to go with this 01:12:01.789 --> 01:12:02.640 sort of thing. 01:12:02.640 --> 01:12:05.670 I think that what conservation development typically will 01:12:05.670 --> 01:12:08.100 do is say you can only do density 01:12:08.100 --> 01:12:09.100 through conservation development. 01:12:09.100 --> 01:12:12.020 If you want to do typical standard lot layout, that is 01:12:12.020 --> 01:12:13.880 going to have to be done at a lower 01:12:13.880 --> 01:12:16.800 density, the standard sort of tract layout that we see. 01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:18.279 That would only be allowed for lower density. 01:12:18.279 --> 01:12:22.199 If you want to do higher density, it would have to be 01:12:22.199 --> 01:12:24.680 conservation development. 01:12:24.680 --> 01:12:27.479 Cluster development allows for the same density for 01:12:27.479 --> 01:12:30.119 standard subdivision layout and conservation 01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:31.359 development. 01:12:31.359 --> 01:12:36.729 It does take away that sort of disincentive to conservation 01:12:36.729 --> 01:12:38.319 development. 01:12:38.319 --> 01:12:40.470 Then again, going back to the idea of the configuration and 01:12:40.470 --> 01:12:42.079 the resulting open space, 01:12:42.079 --> 01:12:45.239 conservation development usually calls for connectivity at 01:12:45.239 --> 01:12:46.760 some point to the larger open 01:12:46.760 --> 01:12:49.880 space system that the city provides and ultimately to 01:12:49.880 --> 01:12:52.960 trails and trying to establish those connections. 01:12:52.960 --> 01:12:54.710 Those open space connections aren't typically called for in 01:12:54.710 --> 01:12:55.479 cluster development. 01:12:55.479 --> 01:12:58.359 It's basically just a you can do this if you increase the 01:12:58.359 --> 01:13:00.039 open space by this percentage 01:13:00.039 --> 01:13:02.399 and you can drop your lot sizes by this percentage. 01:13:02.399 --> 01:13:05.640 I think conservation takes just one step further. 01:13:05.640 --> 01:13:09.170 I think as typically when I see a city moving towards a new 01:13:09.170 --> 01:13:11.079 concept, there's usually a 01:13:11.079 --> 01:13:13.500 hybrid process that you kind of as you work towards 01:13:13.500 --> 01:13:15.439 something, trying to meet the needs 01:13:15.439 --> 01:13:20.979 of the community but also achieve the spirit of a different 01:13:20.979 --> 01:13:24.560 type of land development pattern. 01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:29.069 Our Denton Plan 2030 has some very, very specific guidance 01:13:29.069 --> 01:13:31.279 about this and actually calls for 01:13:31.279 --> 01:13:33.399 it when it talks about the city's edge. 01:13:33.399 --> 01:13:36.670 It calls for promotion of conservation development as an 01:13:36.670 --> 01:13:39.239 alternative for large lot development. 01:13:39.239 --> 01:13:42.369 It calls for revision of rural residential commercial 01:13:42.369 --> 01:13:44.680 districts to allow for conservation. 01:13:44.680 --> 01:13:47.310 It tells us like take a look at your zoning districts and 01:13:47.310 --> 01:13:48.720 see how you can promote this 01:13:48.720 --> 01:13:52.569 in your rural areas and see if you can rezone those areas 01:13:52.569 --> 01:13:55.000 to encourage and make this happen 01:13:55.000 --> 01:13:56.000 in our community. 01:13:56.000 --> 01:14:00.520 It calls for the expansion of the rural open space. 01:14:00.520 --> 01:14:03.159 There is a great deal of guidance in our comp plan and I am 01:14:03.159 --> 01:14:04.760 a little ashamed to admit that 01:14:04.760 --> 01:14:06.399 I kind of went to the comp plan as an afterthought. 01:14:06.399 --> 01:14:08.899 I should have started with that because there really is a 01:14:08.899 --> 01:14:10.439 great deal of information in our 01:14:10.439 --> 01:14:13.359 comp plan really pointing us in this direction and saying 01:14:13.359 --> 01:14:15.199 this is really in the rural areas, 01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:18.489 this is the development, land development pattern that we 01:14:18.489 --> 01:14:20.079 should be trying to promote 01:14:20.079 --> 01:14:23.210 in the rural areas, allowing for that density to come but 01:14:23.210 --> 01:14:25.439 allowing for that thoughtful planning 01:14:25.439 --> 01:14:28.560 of density to occur. 01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:31.260 Some of the benefits, it reduces the cost of public 01:14:31.260 --> 01:14:32.039 services. 01:14:32.039 --> 01:14:34.319 Ultimately can reduce storm runoff, narrower, shorter 01:14:34.319 --> 01:14:36.319 streets, larger amounts of open space, 01:14:36.319 --> 01:14:40.130 allow for more natural filtration, preserves natural areas 01:14:40.130 --> 01:14:42.560 and wildlife, less costs associated 01:14:42.560 --> 01:14:45.800 with clearing and grading and depending on the site those 01:14:45.800 --> 01:14:47.159 can be significant. 01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:50.149 Same number of homes in theory, provides access to green 01:14:50.149 --> 01:14:52.500 space, allows for smaller less expensive 01:14:52.500 --> 01:14:54.989 homes while still creating a sense of place and livable 01:14:54.989 --> 01:14:55.840 communities. 01:14:55.840 --> 01:14:59.189 It can provide buffers between neighborhoods and one of the 01:14:59.189 --> 01:15:00.760 other arguments that I did 01:15:00.760 --> 01:15:03.470 not list is that it provides an open space that does not 01:15:03.470 --> 01:15:05.279 become part of what is maintained 01:15:05.279 --> 01:15:06.920 by the public generally. 01:15:06.920 --> 01:15:09.720 That's a positive and also can be a negative as well. 01:15:09.720 --> 01:15:12.079 Is it practical? 01:15:12.079 --> 01:15:14.819 I spoke with a local developer recently and said why don't 01:15:14.819 --> 01:15:15.600 we see this? 01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:17.079 Why don't we see this happening? 01:15:17.079 --> 01:15:18.880 I think there's a few reasons. 01:15:18.880 --> 01:15:20.279 It's not a common practice. 01:15:20.279 --> 01:15:22.970 It's not the standard subdivision layout that usually our 01:15:22.970 --> 01:15:24.399 developers are working with. 01:15:24.399 --> 01:15:26.520 It is different and maybe additional education is required, 01:15:26.520 --> 01:15:27.880 not just in the development community 01:15:27.880 --> 01:15:30.239 but on the part of staff as well. 01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:33.239 During planning phases, lot and home layout may take extra 01:15:33.239 --> 01:15:34.720 work to ensure that that open 01:15:34.720 --> 01:15:36.119 space connectivity is maintained. 01:15:36.119 --> 01:15:37.760 You're not starting with a blank sheet. 01:15:37.760 --> 01:15:38.760 You're working with a topography. 01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:41.310 You're trying to establish those connections and you're 01:15:41.310 --> 01:15:42.800 sort of moving the houses around 01:15:42.800 --> 01:15:46.760 to make it work on the site a little bit more. 01:15:46.760 --> 01:15:48.970 Methods to protect the open space have to be developed and 01:15:48.970 --> 01:15:50.319 implemented and carefully. 01:15:50.319 --> 01:15:52.869 I think that the mechanism that we're all thinking is HOA 01:15:52.869 --> 01:15:54.180 but certainly that's going 01:15:54.180 --> 01:15:56.960 to impact the cost to the homeowner. 01:15:56.960 --> 01:15:59.119 That always is kind of a staff default. 01:15:59.119 --> 01:16:02.149 Well, HOA maintained but there's a cost to maintenance of 01:16:02.149 --> 01:16:02.960 open space. 01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:06.720 So we don't have land trust options. 01:16:06.720 --> 01:16:09.189 I haven't seen many of those utilized in the state of Texas 01:16:09.189 --> 01:16:09.399 . 01:16:09.399 --> 01:16:11.560 So that always falls to the HOA at this point. 01:16:11.560 --> 01:16:12.640 Not always. 01:16:12.640 --> 01:16:14.640 Even in easement, there's still somebody owns it and 01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:15.880 somebody's maintaining it. 01:16:15.880 --> 01:16:19.439 And so there is that sort of question or impediment that 01:16:19.439 --> 01:16:22.220 could ultimately impact the bottom line 01:16:22.220 --> 01:16:24.720 for the homeowner. 01:16:24.720 --> 01:16:27.920 Obviously challenges the provision of onsite sanitary sewer 01:16:27.920 --> 01:16:28.560 septic. 01:16:28.560 --> 01:16:30.840 We typically require an acre for that. 01:16:30.840 --> 01:16:32.420 This becomes a little problematic. 01:16:32.420 --> 01:16:35.640 That type of estate development really doesn't work well 01:16:35.640 --> 01:16:37.800 with this principle of conservation 01:16:37.800 --> 01:16:38.800 development. 01:16:38.800 --> 01:16:40.560 And then here's the big one. 01:16:40.560 --> 01:16:44.279 I scoured and looked at aerials and just looked at found 01:16:44.279 --> 01:16:46.399 the name of a conservation. 01:16:46.399 --> 01:16:48.039 There's plenty of them out there. 01:16:48.039 --> 01:16:49.479 And then we'd go to the aerials and look at them. 01:16:49.479 --> 01:16:53.449 I had a hard time finding ones that really have that sort 01:16:53.449 --> 01:16:55.840 of affordable housing density 01:16:55.840 --> 01:16:58.579 that we're saying is one of the pluses, one of the positive 01:16:58.579 --> 01:16:59.159 things. 01:16:59.159 --> 01:17:00.680 I think that it's out there. 01:17:00.680 --> 01:17:03.119 I think that in theory that is the point. 01:17:03.119 --> 01:17:05.640 You get the same yield off the same land except that you 01:17:05.640 --> 01:17:07.920 just basically drop your density. 01:17:07.920 --> 01:17:11.680 You drop your lot area and you get the same ultimate yield 01:17:11.680 --> 01:17:12.760 off the land. 01:17:12.760 --> 01:17:16.609 But I had a hard time -- mostly what I found were larger, 01:17:16.609 --> 01:17:18.880 higher price point houses that 01:17:18.880 --> 01:17:22.159 were occurring in these types of development projects. 01:17:22.159 --> 01:17:24.869 But I was looking really hard to find some lower price 01:17:24.869 --> 01:17:26.420 point because I think that is 01:17:26.420 --> 01:17:32.600 ultimately where the beauty of it is if we can make that 01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:33.960 happen. 01:17:33.960 --> 01:17:36.750 And just taking a look at our general development 01:17:36.750 --> 01:17:39.319 regulations that we have on the books right 01:17:39.319 --> 01:17:43.180 now, when a subdivision is more than two acres, we have 01:17:43.180 --> 01:17:45.600 some different requirements. 01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:47.720 And if you look down at general regulations, these are the 01:17:47.720 --> 01:17:49.079 regulations for all subdivisions 01:17:49.079 --> 01:17:51.520 that are -- for all subdivisions. 01:17:51.520 --> 01:17:54.579 But they don't apply to subdivisions that are greater than 01:17:54.579 --> 01:17:55.340 two acres. 01:17:55.340 --> 01:17:58.039 They can apply but they don't apply to subdivisions that 01:17:58.039 --> 01:17:59.560 are greater than two acres. 01:17:59.560 --> 01:18:02.989 In lieu of that, if you exceed two acres, the one in the 01:18:02.989 --> 01:18:04.840 top left corner that has the 01:18:04.840 --> 01:18:08.840 two rows is what applies to you. 01:18:08.840 --> 01:18:12.350 So essentially minimum lot size we place with maximum 01:18:12.350 --> 01:18:14.840 density in the second table if you're 01:18:14.840 --> 01:18:16.319 more than two acres. 01:18:16.319 --> 01:18:19.069 And side yard increases for -- the side yard will increase 01:18:19.069 --> 01:18:20.539 for most of the districts. 01:18:20.539 --> 01:18:22.800 And then all other setbacks are eliminated. 01:18:22.800 --> 01:18:25.149 So for our residential districts greater than two acres, we 01:18:25.149 --> 01:18:26.560 have some different standards. 01:18:26.560 --> 01:18:28.239 Side yards look a little different. 01:18:28.239 --> 01:18:32.359 And we move away from lot size and move into density. 01:18:32.359 --> 01:18:35.079 There are no requirements. 01:18:35.079 --> 01:18:38.550 I think this was a swipe, a sort of effort to try encourage 01:18:38.550 --> 01:18:40.520 conservation development. 01:18:40.520 --> 01:18:42.760 It was our sort of our first attempt. 01:18:42.760 --> 01:18:44.279 But I think it fell a little short. 01:18:44.279 --> 01:18:47.220 We don't have any requirements for corresponding open space 01:18:47.220 --> 01:18:47.460 . 01:18:47.460 --> 01:18:50.770 So if you can't for some reason achieve your density 01:18:50.770 --> 01:18:53.560 because it's encumbered by floodplain 01:18:53.560 --> 01:18:57.199 or environmentally sensitive areas, you certainly are able 01:18:57.199 --> 01:18:59.319 to drop that lot size and get a higher 01:18:59.319 --> 01:19:01.920 density on your project counting that total acreage. 01:19:01.920 --> 01:19:05.359 So there's a little gap there that ultimately could result 01:19:05.359 --> 01:19:06.720 in higher density. 01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:08.859 Because we're moving -- if it's encumbered and it's not 01:19:08.859 --> 01:19:10.279 developable, we're looking at 01:19:10.279 --> 01:19:13.369 the entire site, you don't have minimum lot size anymore, 01:19:13.369 --> 01:19:15.180 you can increase your density. 01:19:15.180 --> 01:19:18.180 So there's a little loophole there or that sort of moved 01:19:18.180 --> 01:19:18.680 away. 01:19:18.680 --> 01:19:21.109 But you are still conserving that FEMA area or that area 01:19:21.109 --> 01:19:22.840 that's encumbered by environmental 01:19:22.840 --> 01:19:23.840 sensitive areas. 01:19:23.840 --> 01:19:27.170 So it does achieve a goal to a certain degree, but 01:19:27.170 --> 01:19:29.800 certainly not in the cleanest way. 01:19:29.800 --> 01:19:32.359 And then again, there's no requirements for open space that 01:19:32.359 --> 01:19:33.920 are in there with just the 01:19:33.920 --> 01:19:35.640 density changes. 01:19:35.640 --> 01:19:38.890 Encourage the thoughtful siting of dwellings, but not a 01:19:38.890 --> 01:19:41.439 thoughtful application of open space. 01:19:41.439 --> 01:19:46.180 So when you say that you can -- that we now move from the 01:19:46.180 --> 01:19:47.579 average -- I mean the required 01:19:47.579 --> 01:19:51.550 minimum lot area of 32,000 square feet and we move away now 01:19:51.550 --> 01:19:53.159 to a maximum density of one 01:19:53.159 --> 01:19:57.250 unit per acre, it's -- and then you basically increase your 01:19:57.250 --> 01:19:58.319 side yard. 01:19:58.319 --> 01:20:00.949 It's sort of encouraging open space within the site, but it 01:20:00.949 --> 01:20:02.319 's encouraging sort of maybe 01:20:02.319 --> 01:20:06.060 a thoughtful placement of buildings with consideration to 01:20:06.060 --> 01:20:07.000 open space. 01:20:07.000 --> 01:20:09.810 But it really isn't calling for any clear direction for 01:20:09.810 --> 01:20:11.319 what that open space should 01:20:11.319 --> 01:20:13.550 look like, what those common areas could be, how those 01:20:13.550 --> 01:20:15.159 could be ultimately connected, and 01:20:15.159 --> 01:20:17.600 doesn't establish any minimum percentages. 01:20:17.600 --> 01:20:20.359 So we have kind of given away a few things with our code, 01:20:20.359 --> 01:20:21.840 and I'm not sure that we have 01:20:21.840 --> 01:20:25.359 achieved the desired result, which is ultimately conserved. 01:20:25.359 --> 01:20:31.100 There's certainly a more direct route to get there. 01:20:31.100 --> 01:20:34.340 One tool for conservation development is planned 01:20:34.340 --> 01:20:35.479 development. 01:20:35.479 --> 01:20:37.880 And when I talked earlier about that interim phase, that 01:20:37.880 --> 01:20:39.479 walking before you can run, before 01:20:39.479 --> 01:20:42.710 you want to embrace full on disincentives for density, it 01:20:42.710 --> 01:20:44.760 could be a planned development. 01:20:44.760 --> 01:20:47.579 And I think you're aware that staff is hoping to bring 01:20:47.579 --> 01:20:49.600 something forward and reintroduce 01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:53.720 the idea of planned development to the community. 01:20:53.720 --> 01:20:56.520 I mean to the commission for consideration at some point. 01:20:56.520 --> 01:20:59.289 It was here, it's gone, we're thinking it's maybe time to 01:20:59.289 --> 01:21:00.920 bring it back, but in a better 01:21:00.920 --> 01:21:02.239 way. 01:21:02.239 --> 01:21:05.430 You remember that I presented this at the previous 01:21:05.430 --> 01:21:07.800 presentation, talked about that a 01:21:07.800 --> 01:21:09.970 planned development is integrated development that 01:21:09.970 --> 01:21:11.479 essentially takes a look at a single 01:21:11.479 --> 01:21:13.680 track that allows us to facilitate smart growth, 01:21:13.680 --> 01:21:16.319 sustainable land use practices including conservation 01:21:16.319 --> 01:21:18.199 development, and mixed use development. 01:21:18.199 --> 01:21:20.760 It allows mixing of residential types. 01:21:20.760 --> 01:21:24.659 It allows flexibility within the lot sizes, setbacks, all 01:21:24.659 --> 01:21:26.960 that to achieve an overall unified 01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:28.439 and superior design. 01:21:28.439 --> 01:21:31.119 And so I had a couple examples, and I remember mentioning 01:21:31.119 --> 01:21:32.720 to you that these examples could 01:21:32.720 --> 01:21:37.520 not be done in the city of Denton, that they would not meet 01:21:37.520 --> 01:21:40.439 our minimum acreage requirements 01:21:40.439 --> 01:21:49.640 for a master plan community. 01:21:49.640 --> 01:21:52.949 Ultimately planned development, just to recap, can promote 01:21:52.949 --> 01:21:54.840 flexibility in land use design, 01:21:54.840 --> 01:21:59.210 allows for innovative land use designs, integration of dens 01:21:59.210 --> 01:22:02.399 ities, achieves a more balanced community. 01:22:02.399 --> 01:22:05.529 I think it's the whole point of these master plan 01:22:05.529 --> 01:22:07.960 developments is that you see, and the 01:22:07.960 --> 01:22:09.729 ones that I've seen done well in different parts of the 01:22:09.729 --> 01:22:10.920 country, do integrate different 01:22:10.920 --> 01:22:12.119 price points. 01:22:12.119 --> 01:22:14.689 So you don't have pockets of this is where the state 01:22:14.689 --> 01:22:16.520 housing is, and this is where the 01:22:16.520 --> 01:22:20.199 little houses are, and the two shall never come near each 01:22:20.199 --> 01:22:20.880 other. 01:22:20.880 --> 01:22:23.229 It integrates, creates a community that integrates a lot of 01:22:23.229 --> 01:22:24.680 different price points, and done 01:22:24.680 --> 01:22:27.039 really beautifully with great deal of success in other 01:22:27.039 --> 01:22:29.119 communities through master plan communities 01:22:29.119 --> 01:22:32.560 or plan development mechanisms. 01:22:32.560 --> 01:22:35.170 Promotes more compact development, effective integration of 01:22:35.170 --> 01:22:36.439 open space, and allows site 01:22:36.439 --> 01:22:41.449 specific regulations in response to mitigate offsite 01:22:41.449 --> 01:22:42.600 impacts. 01:22:42.600 --> 01:22:44.850 So on a smaller level, plan development can help us to, I 01:22:44.850 --> 01:22:46.079 think of some projects that 01:22:46.079 --> 01:22:48.810 have been before you recently where smaller project, there 01:22:48.810 --> 01:22:50.159 's offsite impacts, we just 01:22:50.159 --> 01:22:53.989 have straight zoning, and all they can do to maybe raise 01:22:53.989 --> 01:22:56.039 the roof or go a little higher 01:22:56.039 --> 01:22:58.670 would be to get to the next zoning category, but we don't 01:22:58.670 --> 01:23:00.000 want that because we don't know 01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:01.479 what else that will bring. 01:23:01.479 --> 01:23:03.560 So developers are caught in a conundrum. 01:23:03.560 --> 01:23:05.369 All I can do is go to the higher zoning category to make 01:23:05.369 --> 01:23:06.640 this happen, and we really don't want 01:23:06.640 --> 01:23:07.640 to see that. 01:23:07.640 --> 01:23:09.560 We want to see, we'll give you that, but then we want this 01:23:09.560 --> 01:23:10.199 other thing. 01:23:10.199 --> 01:23:13.819 We don't have a tool for basically managing some of those 01:23:13.819 --> 01:23:16.079 things through the conventional 01:23:16.079 --> 01:23:24.079 zoning restrictions that we're dealing with right now. 01:23:24.079 --> 01:23:25.880 This is just a recap from a previous presentation that was 01:23:25.880 --> 01:23:27.199 provided to the commission by another 01:23:27.199 --> 01:23:30.289 staff member, but there were reasons why it didn't work in 01:23:30.289 --> 01:23:31.720 Denton, and part of it, and 01:23:31.720 --> 01:23:35.420 I think the biggest one of these that, there's two I think 01:23:35.420 --> 01:23:37.640 really big ones in here, is that 01:23:37.640 --> 01:23:42.380 they, plan development weren't achieving that higher design 01:23:42.380 --> 01:23:44.560 component, that elevated integrated 01:23:44.560 --> 01:23:48.039 site development component that we're trying to achieve 01:23:48.039 --> 01:23:49.920 through plan development. 01:23:49.920 --> 01:23:50.920 That can be worked on. 01:23:50.920 --> 01:23:53.840 I think that can be improved through the ordinance. 01:23:53.840 --> 01:23:56.750 And then ultimately, and this is in so many communities 01:23:56.750 --> 01:23:58.680 across the entire state of Texas, 01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:00.670 is that plan development is often used as a remedy for 01:24:00.670 --> 01:24:01.239 variance. 01:24:01.239 --> 01:24:03.909 So you don't want to do your setbacks, do a PD, and you can 01:24:03.909 --> 01:24:05.159 drop your setbacks, but 01:24:05.159 --> 01:24:07.550 if you're not achieving what the comp plan asks you to 01:24:07.550 --> 01:24:09.439 achieve, if you're not achieving, 01:24:09.439 --> 01:24:13.609 similar to our alternative development plan, some sort of 01:24:13.609 --> 01:24:16.300 integrated, elevated, and higher 01:24:16.300 --> 01:24:18.630 urban design with your project, then really it has not met 01:24:18.630 --> 01:24:20.239 the intent of what a plan development 01:24:20.239 --> 01:24:21.239 should do. 01:24:21.239 --> 01:24:22.680 We should get something for it. 01:24:22.680 --> 01:24:25.000 And so there's, and then tracking them is always difficult. 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:28.229 But these are some things I think that we are prepared to, 01:24:28.229 --> 01:24:29.760 I think, work on in a more 01:24:29.760 --> 01:24:34.510 comprehensive way and put some fail safes into our 01:24:34.510 --> 01:24:37.340 ordinance to prevent sort of this 01:24:37.340 --> 01:24:41.770 type of lower quality development or less than, development 01:24:41.770 --> 01:24:43.920 that's not quite consistent with 01:24:43.920 --> 01:24:49.399 our comp plan. 01:24:49.399 --> 01:24:52.039 Some ways to do that are authorized, and these could be 01:24:52.039 --> 01:24:54.199 tailored specifically for conservation 01:24:54.199 --> 01:24:57.399 development, so we could essentially authorize density 01:24:57.399 --> 01:24:59.359 bonuses as an incentive for the use 01:24:59.359 --> 01:25:05.239 of plan developments, or PUDs in this case, to encourage 01:25:05.239 --> 01:25:07.880 open space protection. 01:25:07.880 --> 01:25:10.199 Minimum acreage for eligible projects. 01:25:10.199 --> 01:25:12.199 These may be different for infill thresholds of something 01:25:12.199 --> 01:25:13.279 that is in the city that we're 01:25:13.279 --> 01:25:16.279 trying to mitigate offsite impacts, might have a different 01:25:16.279 --> 01:25:17.720 threshold, but certainly 01:25:17.720 --> 01:25:21.880 I've seen pros and cons to the idea of a 25 acre minimum 01:25:21.880 --> 01:25:24.319 plan development where you might 01:25:24.319 --> 01:25:26.789 be encouraging conservation development through that 01:25:26.789 --> 01:25:27.479 mechanism. 01:25:27.479 --> 01:25:32.229 And then standards for reservation, dedication of open 01:25:32.229 --> 01:25:34.800 space might be a way to condition 01:25:34.800 --> 01:25:37.060 that approval for the plan development that's trying to 01:25:37.060 --> 01:25:38.760 achieve conservation development. 01:25:38.760 --> 01:25:42.000 You could integrate what those standards are for dedication 01:25:42.000 --> 01:25:43.439 on the space, what kind of 01:25:43.439 --> 01:25:45.800 connectivity you're looking for, maybe special provisions 01:25:45.800 --> 01:25:47.479 for multi-track developments that 01:25:47.479 --> 01:25:50.229 encourage that connection and larger tracks of open space 01:25:50.229 --> 01:25:51.640 that's shared between the two 01:25:51.640 --> 01:25:52.640 tracks. 01:25:52.640 --> 01:25:55.289 So just some things that could be integrated into a plan 01:25:55.289 --> 01:25:56.960 development ordinance to allow 01:25:56.960 --> 01:26:01.710 conservation to development or cluster development to move 01:26:01.710 --> 01:26:04.039 forward in a more measured way as 01:26:04.039 --> 01:26:08.039 we sort of branch out into this new idea. 01:26:08.039 --> 01:26:11.079 I'd be glad to answer any questions you have. 01:26:11.079 --> 01:26:12.560 Commissioner Taylor. 01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:15.859 Thank you, Chair. 01:26:15.859 --> 01:26:18.279 So I just wanted to comment that this is, I think this 01:26:18.279 --> 01:26:19.779 solves a lot of the problems we've 01:26:19.779 --> 01:26:23.960 looked at before with NR2 lot coverage and other low 01:26:23.960 --> 01:26:26.579 density lot coverage issues. 01:26:26.579 --> 01:26:30.189 The density transfers exist now and those occur, but then 01:26:30.189 --> 01:26:32.359 you end up with a constrained lot 01:26:32.359 --> 01:26:37.550 that has to have 60% landscape or something like that and 01:26:37.550 --> 01:26:40.279 it's hard to fit what everybody 01:26:40.279 --> 01:26:43.239 wants on that lot there. 01:26:43.239 --> 01:26:46.649 This allows that green space to be just across the back 01:26:46.649 --> 01:26:48.920 fence in a publicly shared area and 01:26:48.920 --> 01:26:53.350 permanently preserved area and so people should be able to 01:26:53.350 --> 01:26:55.600 build out there lots more. 01:26:55.600 --> 01:26:58.569 And especially in South Denton, we have a lot of NR2 and a 01:26:58.569 --> 01:27:00.319 lot of NR1 that's undeveloped 01:27:00.319 --> 01:27:04.199 and it's an ordeal to get it rezoned and the easiest method 01:27:04.199 --> 01:27:06.520 is usually density transfers, 01:27:06.520 --> 01:27:10.100 but then they run into all these barriers when they try and 01:27:10.100 --> 01:27:11.899 build three houses per acre 01:27:11.899 --> 01:27:16.810 densely in an NR1 area and then have a bunch of preserved 01:27:16.810 --> 01:27:18.439 area behind it. 01:27:18.439 --> 01:27:21.939 So I think that expanding this and making it more holistic 01:27:21.939 --> 01:27:23.720 and addressing things like 01:27:23.720 --> 01:27:28.760 lot coverage and other things will make that density 01:27:28.760 --> 01:27:32.279 transfer more useful and end up with 01:27:32.279 --> 01:27:36.520 better development overall. 01:27:36.520 --> 01:27:37.520 Plan developments. 01:27:37.520 --> 01:27:40.409 You can look all over Fort Worth and see some beautiful 01:27:40.409 --> 01:27:42.560 plan developments that are this area 01:27:42.560 --> 01:27:46.399 is zoned to be an auto body storage facility and that's the 01:27:46.399 --> 01:27:48.239 only use that's allowed on 01:27:48.239 --> 01:27:51.600 a 10 acre parcel. 01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:55.539 I don't know how we would control PDs because when Denton 01:27:55.539 --> 01:27:57.720 had them and when other cities 01:27:57.720 --> 01:28:00.979 in the area have had them, they become the I'm going to 01:28:00.979 --> 01:28:02.880 write my own zoning category 01:28:02.880 --> 01:28:06.930 and usually they're not well thought out, they're not like 01:28:06.930 --> 01:28:08.680 an MPC, they're I want to 01:28:08.680 --> 01:28:11.960 do this one thing here and I'm going to find a way to get 01:28:11.960 --> 01:28:12.960 it through. 01:28:12.960 --> 01:28:15.960 I can get it through with plan development, right? 01:28:15.960 --> 01:28:17.399 That's the default, right? 01:28:17.399 --> 01:28:21.239 So whenever, like moving forward with PDs, I think it's 01:28:21.239 --> 01:28:23.199 they need to have safeties on 01:28:23.199 --> 01:28:24.199 them. 01:28:24.199 --> 01:28:27.550 They do provide a valuable tool for flexible development, 01:28:27.550 --> 01:28:29.199 but there need to be safeties 01:28:29.199 --> 01:28:32.560 to prevent them from just being the loophole generator. 01:28:32.560 --> 01:28:35.340 And the conservation development, I think we can take the 01:28:35.340 --> 01:28:36.840 idea, like you said, that's 01:28:36.840 --> 01:28:40.500 in our code about density transfer and expand on it and 01:28:40.500 --> 01:28:42.880 make it better and encourage more 01:28:42.880 --> 01:28:45.270 development to go that way, like you said, lower 01:28:45.270 --> 01:28:46.600 infrastructure costs. 01:28:46.600 --> 01:28:48.229 It's better for everybody, even the people that don't live 01:28:48.229 --> 01:28:49.140 in that neighborhood, less 01:28:49.140 --> 01:28:52.609 infrastructure that their taxes have to support, more open 01:28:52.609 --> 01:28:54.560 space that they can enjoy across 01:28:54.560 --> 01:28:58.560 the other side of the fence, so to speak. 01:28:58.560 --> 01:29:02.960 I have a couple comments and observations. 01:29:02.960 --> 01:29:07.600 I think the idea and the concept is great. 01:29:07.600 --> 01:29:10.850 I think the issues are going to come into the application 01:29:10.850 --> 01:29:12.500 of it from my experience. 01:29:12.500 --> 01:29:16.109 And just a couple things that may have already been 01:29:16.109 --> 01:29:19.479 considered by staff is that in my development 01:29:19.479 --> 01:29:23.609 career, run into this before trying to do creative projects 01:29:23.609 --> 01:29:25.960 , you run into street design 01:29:25.960 --> 01:29:29.470 criteria, the curve data doesn't work, the slope data doesn 01:29:29.470 --> 01:29:31.079 't work, you can't design 01:29:31.079 --> 01:29:35.569 the streets based on what our minimums are to be able to do 01:29:35.569 --> 01:29:36.880 those things. 01:29:36.880 --> 01:29:38.720 And then same thing with your utilities. 01:29:38.720 --> 01:29:42.029 You end up with a lot of dead end utilities and the 01:29:42.029 --> 01:29:44.640 inability to loop and all the things 01:29:44.640 --> 01:29:48.319 that engineering can design the platform. 01:29:48.319 --> 01:29:50.720 You go trying to go sit down with those guys and say, "It's 01:29:50.720 --> 01:29:51.920 going to be a straight line. 01:29:51.920 --> 01:29:53.399 It's got to tie here and tie here." 01:29:53.399 --> 01:29:55.869 Well, this is a really creative idea and I'd love to do 01:29:55.869 --> 01:29:56.319 this. 01:29:56.319 --> 01:29:59.439 Well, it doesn't meet our design criteria. 01:29:59.439 --> 01:30:02.380 And then the only way to do that is to then try to do it 01:30:02.380 --> 01:30:04.159 private streets and an HOA and 01:30:04.159 --> 01:30:06.399 then all the additional costs and who's going to maintain 01:30:06.399 --> 01:30:07.680 it and all the other things that 01:30:07.680 --> 01:30:08.680 we've talked about here. 01:30:08.680 --> 01:30:11.500 So I would champion those things and I just want to is that 01:30:11.500 --> 01:30:12.920 's the direction that we're 01:30:12.920 --> 01:30:14.439 going. 01:30:14.439 --> 01:30:17.689 This is going to be, in my opinion, an integral part in 01:30:17.689 --> 01:30:19.800 that conversation to take it from 01:30:19.800 --> 01:30:23.380 it looks great on a board or on a piece of paper to how do 01:30:23.380 --> 01:30:25.359 we actually go out there and 01:30:25.359 --> 01:30:29.069 put it in the ground and engineer it and it's accepted by 01:30:29.069 --> 01:30:31.399 the city to make it a reality. 01:30:31.399 --> 01:30:35.750 And those would be my couple of comments to help add to 01:30:35.750 --> 01:30:38.399 that to make it more of a reality 01:30:38.399 --> 01:30:42.640 for the city of Denton. 01:30:42.640 --> 01:30:49.439 Any other comments on this item? 01:30:49.439 --> 01:30:52.680 Thank you for a great presentation. 01:30:52.680 --> 01:30:56.260 We've run a little long on our work session and our meeting 01:30:56.260 --> 01:30:58.079 looks to be fairly short. 01:30:58.079 --> 01:31:00.920 I know we talked about possibly taking a break to eat. 01:31:00.920 --> 01:31:04.970 I don't know if it'd be this commission's purview to let's 01:31:04.970 --> 01:31:06.680 just press on and have our 01:31:06.680 --> 01:31:10.420 meeting and I think it will go reasonably quickly based on 01:31:10.420 --> 01:31:12.239 it's just a consent agenda 01:31:12.239 --> 01:31:14.439 and then those that like to stay can eat. 01:31:14.439 --> 01:31:17.680 Is that acceptable to everybody? 01:31:17.680 --> 01:31:18.840 Okay. 01:31:18.840 --> 01:31:24.739 With that at 634, I'm going to close our work session for 01:31:24.739 --> 01:31:27.840 Planning and Zoning Commission 01:31:27.840 --> 01:31:30.520 and I'm going to move right on into... 01:31:30.520 --> 01:31:31.520 We need to pause. 01:31:31.520 --> 01:31:32.520 Sorry. 01:31:32.520 --> 01:31:37.880 We need to pause to reset the tape. 01:31:37.880 --> 01:31:44.479 Two minutes. 01:31:44.479 --> 01:31:50.359 Good evening and welcome to the City of Denton Planning and 01:31:50.359 --> 01:31:53.479 Zoning Commission meeting for 01:31:53.479 --> 01:31:54.479 April 27th. 01:31:54.479 --> 01:31:59.029 It is 637 and our meeting has been duly posted and a quorum 01:31:59.029 --> 01:32:01.439 in present and I call our meeting 01:32:01.439 --> 01:32:03.399 to order at this time. 01:32:03.399 --> 01:32:05.789 Our first order of business is going to be to stand and 01:32:05.789 --> 01:32:07.199 give a pledge to the US and the 01:32:07.199 --> 01:32:10.199 Texas flag. 01:32:10.199 --> 01:32:14.949 I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of 01:32:14.949 --> 01:32:17.680 America and to the republic for 01:32:17.680 --> 01:32:24.100 which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with 01:32:24.100 --> 01:32:27.479 liberty and justice for all. 01:32:27.479 --> 01:32:36.100 On earth, Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to the city of 01:32:36.100 --> 01:32:41.000 Texas, one state, under God, 01:32:41.000 --> 01:32:46.880 one individual. 01:32:46.880 --> 01:32:49.270 Our next item on our agenda tonight is going to be to 01:32:49.270 --> 01:32:51.199 consider the approval of the Planning 01:32:51.199 --> 01:32:54.829 and Zoning Commission minutes and I'm going to call for two 01:32:54.829 --> 01:32:56.239 separate motions. 01:32:56.239 --> 01:33:02.439 I'll take our March 23rd minutes first. 01:33:02.439 --> 01:33:03.439 Commissioner Bribble. 01:33:03.439 --> 01:33:04.960 Thank you, Chair. 01:33:04.960 --> 01:33:07.399 I had a clarification I'd like to make to the minutes. 01:33:07.399 --> 01:33:09.039 It's on page three. 01:33:09.039 --> 01:33:13.130 When we were talking about the tree ordinance, I had asked 01:33:13.130 --> 01:33:15.359 a question somewhere in there 01:33:15.359 --> 01:33:20.100 about penalties and fines and making sure that we had stric 01:33:20.100 --> 01:33:22.399 ter standards when someone 01:33:22.399 --> 01:33:26.199 was found to be cutting down trees illegally. 01:33:26.199 --> 01:33:27.800 That didn't make it into the minutes. 01:33:27.800 --> 01:33:33.409 Additionally, line 28, when legal is talking about the, it 01:33:33.409 --> 01:33:36.319 says Jennifer de Curtis, deputy 01:33:36.319 --> 01:33:38.890 city attorney, stated although the attorney general is a 01:33:38.890 --> 01:33:40.119 state law requirement. 01:33:40.119 --> 01:33:43.329 I think you meant to say the ag, we're talking about the ag 01:33:43.329 --> 01:33:44.279 exemption. 01:33:44.279 --> 01:33:46.909 So that needs to be cleaned up and if we could somehow add 01:33:46.909 --> 01:33:48.520 that line of questioning back 01:33:48.520 --> 01:33:50.800 into the minutes, I would appreciate that. 01:33:50.800 --> 01:33:52.479 But that was my only correction. 01:33:52.479 --> 01:33:53.479 Thank you. 01:33:53.479 --> 01:34:03.119 Do you like to make a motion? 01:34:03.119 --> 01:34:04.119 Commissioner Roselle. 01:34:04.119 --> 01:34:09.119 I motion to approve the March 23rd minutes. 01:34:09.119 --> 01:34:10.119 With the correction. 01:34:10.119 --> 01:34:14.359 Yes, with the corrections from Commissioner Bribble. 01:34:14.359 --> 01:34:15.359 Commissioner Beck. 01:34:15.359 --> 01:34:16.359 Second. 01:34:16.359 --> 01:34:17.359 Okay. 01:34:17.359 --> 01:34:21.159 First and a second to approve. 01:34:21.159 --> 01:34:30.800 Call for a vote on the board. 01:34:30.800 --> 01:34:33.989 Motion carries seven zero and I want to clarify that motion 01:34:33.989 --> 01:34:36.119 was with to approve with the corrections 01:34:36.119 --> 01:34:42.359 on it. 01:34:42.359 --> 01:34:47.670 We'll take our next item will be our minutes for April 13th 01:34:47.670 --> 01:34:48.039 . 01:34:48.039 --> 01:34:49.039 Commissioner Bribble. 01:34:49.039 --> 01:34:50.039 Thank you, Chair. 01:34:50.039 --> 01:34:51.760 I have another correction in these minutes as well. 01:34:51.760 --> 01:34:56.079 It's on page six, lines 20 through 24. 01:34:56.079 --> 01:35:01.310 I was speaking about the matrix and I had suggested the 01:35:01.310 --> 01:35:03.960 last one was says the third 01:35:03.960 --> 01:35:06.680 item requested is in regards to the true ordinance. 01:35:06.680 --> 01:35:09.579 Actually the third item that I requested was an update on 01:35:09.579 --> 01:35:11.260 conservation development, which 01:35:11.260 --> 01:35:12.260 we did tonight. 01:35:12.260 --> 01:35:14.649 But I just want the minutes to reflect that that was my 01:35:14.649 --> 01:35:15.520 third request. 01:35:15.520 --> 01:35:16.520 Thank you. 01:35:16.520 --> 01:35:17.520 Okay. 01:35:17.520 --> 01:35:18.520 Oh, and oh. 01:35:18.520 --> 01:35:20.279 Keep going. 01:35:20.279 --> 01:35:22.640 You're good. 01:35:22.640 --> 01:35:24.800 Can I make a motion to approve the minutes? 01:35:24.800 --> 01:35:25.800 You beat me to it, Jim. 01:35:25.800 --> 01:35:28.479 Well, I beat you to it because I have one other. 01:35:28.479 --> 01:35:29.479 Okay. 01:35:29.479 --> 01:35:30.479 Okay. 01:35:30.479 --> 01:35:34.149 In addition to the corrections from Commissioner Bribble, 01:35:34.149 --> 01:35:36.199 there was one other on page six, 01:35:36.199 --> 01:35:38.319 line 10. 01:35:38.319 --> 01:35:41.090 Frank Connor is listed and I think it should have been 01:35:41.090 --> 01:35:42.920 based on clarification is Frank 01:35:42.920 --> 01:35:43.920 Dudowitz. 01:35:43.920 --> 01:35:46.800 So give Connor a pass. 01:35:46.800 --> 01:35:49.039 He didn't make the meeting. 01:35:49.039 --> 01:35:57.119 So anyway, the chair have a second. 01:35:57.119 --> 01:35:58.119 Commissioner Roselle. 01:35:58.119 --> 01:35:59.119 I second. 01:35:59.119 --> 01:36:00.119 Okay. 01:36:00.119 --> 01:36:02.039 Have a first and a second to approve the minutes with the 01:36:02.039 --> 01:36:03.680 two corrections, Commissioner Bribble 01:36:03.680 --> 01:36:04.680 and Commissioner Strange. 01:36:04.680 --> 01:36:11.680 And I call for a vote on the board. 01:36:11.680 --> 01:36:29.159 And motion passes 6-0 with one abstain. 01:36:29.159 --> 01:36:34.109 Moves to our third item on our agenda tonight will be our 01:36:34.109 --> 01:36:35.920 consent agenda. 01:36:35.920 --> 01:36:36.920 Commissioner Beck. 01:36:36.920 --> 01:36:40.239 I move we approve the consent agenda. 01:36:40.239 --> 01:36:41.239 Okay. 01:36:41.239 --> 01:36:42.239 Commissioner Dudowitz. 01:36:42.239 --> 01:36:43.239 I second. 01:36:43.239 --> 01:36:44.239 Okay. 01:36:44.239 --> 01:36:47.399 We have a first and a second. 01:36:47.399 --> 01:36:48.720 Is there some discussion? 01:36:48.720 --> 01:36:49.720 Commissioner Roselle. 01:36:49.720 --> 01:36:53.689 Yes, we mentioned in work session that the final plat would 01:36:53.689 --> 01:36:55.199 have the curb cuts. 01:36:55.199 --> 01:36:57.670 So that will come back or do we approve it with that or is 01:36:57.670 --> 01:36:59.000 that the assumption that that 01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:02.119 would already be done? 01:37:02.119 --> 01:37:05.239 Will you clarify which item that going to be? 01:37:05.239 --> 01:37:08.760 It's an item PP150021. 01:37:08.760 --> 01:37:12.560 In work session we talked about the north curb cut into 01:37:12.560 --> 01:37:15.439 Stewart not represented correctly. 01:37:15.439 --> 01:37:16.439 Okay. 01:37:16.439 --> 01:37:20.380 I'll ask for clarification of staff if we can go ahead with 01:37:20.380 --> 01:37:22.079 as is since it's a preliminary 01:37:22.079 --> 01:37:25.680 plat and that can be addressed at the final plat or if we 01:37:25.680 --> 01:37:28.079 need to do something different. 01:37:28.079 --> 01:37:30.760 That's something we can require during the final plat. 01:37:30.760 --> 01:37:31.760 Perfect. 01:37:31.760 --> 01:37:32.760 Thank you. 01:37:32.760 --> 01:37:33.760 Okay. 01:37:33.760 --> 01:37:34.760 Commissioner Dudowitz. 01:37:34.760 --> 01:37:40.399 For a point of clarification, when we see plats like this, 01:37:40.399 --> 01:37:42.880 I'm going to ask the staff, 01:37:42.880 --> 01:37:45.460 and they had that detail, is it just there for their 01:37:45.460 --> 01:37:47.239 convenience but we're not really 01:37:47.239 --> 01:37:49.720 looking at that at this point in time. 01:37:49.720 --> 01:37:51.880 The detail comes in the final plat? 01:37:51.880 --> 01:37:52.880 It does come in the final plat. 01:37:52.880 --> 01:37:55.560 I think it was just a slight oversight that it didn't have 01:37:55.560 --> 01:37:57.159 the 15 foot on each side for 01:37:57.159 --> 01:38:01.079 the site requirements and I think they missed it by chance. 01:38:01.079 --> 01:38:03.630 I assumed when I saw it as a preliminary plat I didn't get 01:38:03.630 --> 01:38:05.239 too over excited about all that. 01:38:05.239 --> 01:38:06.239 Yeah, that makes sense. 01:38:06.239 --> 01:38:10.170 I just was going to make sure in the future I went through 01:38:10.170 --> 01:38:12.159 it real quickly and saying 01:38:12.159 --> 01:38:14.739 okay it's a preliminary and then ignored those types of 01:38:14.739 --> 01:38:15.319 things. 01:38:15.319 --> 01:38:18.680 There was one on the south side too that looked like that. 01:38:18.680 --> 01:38:22.000 Thank you. 01:38:22.000 --> 01:38:28.239 So we have a first and second to approve the consent agenda 01:38:28.239 --> 01:38:28.680 . 01:38:28.680 --> 01:38:39.159 Seeing no other request to speak, I'll call for a vote on 01:38:39.159 --> 01:38:41.600 the board. 01:38:41.600 --> 01:38:45.279 Motion carries 7-0. 01:38:45.279 --> 01:38:49.399 That moves us to item four, our public hearing section. 01:38:49.399 --> 01:38:56.949 And I'm at this time going to open public hearing Z16-003 01:38:56.949 --> 01:38:59.960 and I will go ahead and make 01:38:59.960 --> 01:39:03.899 a motion based on I believe a request by the applicant that 01:39:03.899 --> 01:39:05.920 this item will be continued 01:39:05.920 --> 01:39:14.439 to date certain of May the 11th, 2016. 01:39:14.439 --> 01:39:15.439 Commissioner Dudowitz? 01:39:15.439 --> 01:39:17.720 I second the motion. 01:39:17.720 --> 01:39:18.720 Okay. 01:39:18.720 --> 01:39:19.720 Any discussion? 01:39:19.720 --> 01:39:30.239 Seeing none, I'll call for a vote on the board. 01:39:30.239 --> 01:39:34.329 That motion carries 7-0 and that moves us to our final 01:39:34.329 --> 01:39:36.600 couple of items, our project 01:39:36.600 --> 01:39:40.239 matrix and our concluding items. 01:39:40.239 --> 01:39:55.890 Seeing no request on those two items, I will close our 01:39:55.890 --> 01:39:58.920 meeting at 646. 01:39:58.920 --> 01:39:59.319 Thank you very much.