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Welcome you to the City of Denton planning and zoning work

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session.

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This meeting's been duly posted and we have a quorum

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present and I call our meeting to order.

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At this time, our first item of business is going to be

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clarification of agenda items and

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I will turn that over to Ron for presentation.

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>> Thank you, Chair.

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This is an opportunity for the commission to ask questions

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on the plat.

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I don't know if we have a presentation for the plat.

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If you have any questions, we can certainly address them.

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The other item is the public hearing item and

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that is being requested to be continued to date certain.

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So again, I don't know if we, I don't believe we have a

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presentation prepared for that.

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>> Okay.

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Okay, well then I'll move to our second item which is going

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to be our work session reports.

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And, sorry.

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>> No, it's good.

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Is this- >> Commissioner Rossell.

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>> Thank you.

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Is this the opportunity to talk about the consent agenda

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items?

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>> Yes.

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>> Yes, if you have any- >> Yeah, can I delay the other

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stuff for

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a second and talk about PP 1521?

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The plat for Beaver Creek edition?

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>> Sure.

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So I have a couple questions of clarification just maybe to

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enlighten my ignorance.

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But also I have maybe some, not concerns obviously if it's

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happening,

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but maybe to express some thoughts I had about this.

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So first on the, I'm going to get my directions mixed up,

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but

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on the plat on the bottom right, which I guess is the

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northeast corner.

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That road doesn't have a curb cut.

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What's happening at the termination of that road into

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Stewart?

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>> Right here?

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>> No, opposite corner.

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Down, all the way, right there.

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>> Right here?

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>> Yeah.

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What's happening to that road?

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Yeah, is it just, it's not entering into Stewart.

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Is there a gate there?

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Usually there's like a cul-de-sac and then a fence or

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something.

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>> Let's rotate it.

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Hold on.

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>> This way's north.

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>> The other way.

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>> This way.

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>> Upside down.

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>> Am I upside down?

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Yes, I am.

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>> Yeah, you're upside down.

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>> Yeah, that's oriented, right?

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>> This road right here?

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>> Yeah.

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>> It's tying into Stewart?

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>> There is a Stewart Road pavement along at that

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intersection and

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they are actually improving Stewart Road along their entire

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frontage.

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>> Okay.

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>> And they're tying that street to the.

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>> Into Stewart.

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Because the other entrances to the south actually have like

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curve,

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looks like more cutouts.

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You see the design of those two into Stewart?

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Those look different than the one to the north.

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Is there a reason that those look significantly different?

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>> Okay, it looks like it was a minor oversight.

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But the final plot, the final plot is in and they will have

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those curb cuts.

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>> So it will kind of branch out.

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And thank you.

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And then on the west, there's two cul-de-sacs that aren't

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on the actual property.

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How does that work?

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>> They'll have to obtain easements.

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>> And is that a foregone conclusion that they'll obtain

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easements or

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what's the process of doing that?

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>> We won't approve the final plot unless those easements

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are in place.

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Otherwise, if they can't get the easements, we'll have to

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alter the design of the plot.

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>> Okay, perfect.

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And then the last question I have, and this kind of goes

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into a larger road impact

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fee conversation, so maybe this is just a process of me

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understanding it.

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If I understand this correctly, the road impact fees

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assessed under current

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regulation will only apply to phase 1A.

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Is that correct?

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>> So it's broken into phase 1A, phase 1B, phase 2, phase 3

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.

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>> When the roadway impact fees are adopted,

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the roadway impact fees will be assessed during the

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building permit for

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those laws as they apply for building permits.

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>> But just only phase 1A, right?

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>> Yes, just for phase 1A.

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>> Because the new road impact fee would actually,

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the impact wouldn't be the entire plat per rooftop.

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Am I understanding that correct in terms of the proposed

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change?

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>> The roadway impact fees will be assessed by single

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family equivalent.

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So it'll be consistent as each phase comes along.

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Say it's $3,000 per lot.

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Phase 1A will be charged $3,000 as they pull their building

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permit.

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And then when phase 1B comes in, they'll be assessed the

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same fee.

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>> That's under the new regulations, right?

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The current regulations would only apply to that first

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phase.

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>> The new regulations that's in process right now.

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>> But would this be under the old regulations if we

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approve it tonight?

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>> This would be under the old regulations because I

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believe there's a 12 month

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grace period after adoption of the impact fees.

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>> That's what I was about to say.

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And I'm sorry I didn't watch the council meeting last night

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.

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Was it adopted?

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>> The ordinance was tabled?

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>> No, it was not.

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>> It was not, okay.

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So if we- >> It was put up.

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>> Right, so if we approve this tonight, I don't think that

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will have any effect.

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Because I think it has to be a final plat.

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But there will be a 12 month grace period and the amount

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might be assessed.

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But it will not be collected per building permits for 12

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months.

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>> Gotcha, I guess my point would be, is this an example of

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making a phase one

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extremely small and having subsequent phases much larger to

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reduce

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the road impact fee of the developer?

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Does that question, am I making sense with that question?

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Because it seems like under the new regulations, the new

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road impact fee,

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when it's adopted, every rooftop would be assessed at a

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building permit.

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That's not the case under the current rules.

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Maybe I'm muddling the waters.

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I'm just trying to understand the implications,

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how this would look different under the different road

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impact.

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Because phase one looks extremely small and it just seems

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like it's conveniently really small.

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I was wondering if that was the motivation.

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>> If I can chime in, and again, correct me if I'm wrong

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here.

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We currently don't have impact fees when you say-

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>> The exactions.

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>> Okay. >> Right.

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That's the right word.

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I apologize.

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Sorry about that guys.

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>> The exactions are only to phase one, right?

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>> Yes. >> Thank you, Ron.

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>> The exactions that we would apply for phase 1A would

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just be along the frontage of phase 1A.

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>> So when phase 1B comes in, there's not any additional

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exactions?

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>> That is correct.

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There would be some exactions, but in terms of signal cost

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participation rather than

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perimeter street improvements along existing roadways

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because they don't have frontage on, say, Stewart Road.

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>> Yeah. >> Which is existing.

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>> So they would construct all the interior road network.

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>> Yeah, I guess this just illustrates to me the need for

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the road impact fees rather than the exactions because

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it seems like the city's missing out on a lot of potential

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fees under the current setup and

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the way these developers designed this plot.

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Thanks for that diatribe.

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One last thing.

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I'm concerned about adding this many homes on Stewart Road

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when it's serviced by engine five.

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So fire engine five is what services this plot of land.

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The station five is at the corner of Bonnie Bray and Winds

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or.

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And there's not a cross over 288 at Stewart.

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So if there's a fire in one of these homes, the fire engine

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would come out of station five,

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head north on Bonnie Bray.

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Bonnie Bray hits Luke 288.

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They would have to drive past the actual fire and do a U-

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turn to come back to the fire.

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And so I guess if you buy a home there, you understand that

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there's going to be a delay,

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but it raises some concerns putting that many houses in a

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way in which the main thoroughfare doesn't even cross over

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Luke 288.

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Station five.

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Yeah, I think four.

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Yeah, this is coming from a firefighter.

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I'm relaying their concerns about that.

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But even if it was station four, there's...

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[inaudible]

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It was reviewed by our fire department within the DRC

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committee.

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Okay.

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Yeah, that's good.

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That's all of the thoughts I had about this.

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Thanks.

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Commissioner Bruegel.

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Thank you, Chair.

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Commissioner Rossell, that was impressive just now.

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Thank you for that.

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It was very insightful.

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I have a couple of clarifications on the minutes.

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Can we talk about that now?

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Or do we talk about that in the regular session?

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I'm not sure.

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I'm going to ask staff for direction on that.

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I think we have that on the agenda to consider as an item,

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so we should probably wait till...

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No problem.

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I'll hold that thought.

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Thank you.

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These are for just clarification on consideration items.

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Okay.

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Any other questions on the plats?

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You have a plaque question?

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Commissioner Detowitz.

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Just a point of clarification on the size of phase one A

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and two others.

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I've been involved in some of these developments in the

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past, it may be because of the impact

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fee or it may be because the investment to complete a phase

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is less, but smaller, and

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then it attracts more capital after it's been started.

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So they may start small for that purpose.

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Jim, who's been in the development stage, may be able to

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speak to it more, but that

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might be the other alternative in a multi-phase development

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.

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They start smaller.

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That's a great point.

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I don't know the actual savings or...

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Yeah.

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I'm not saying the developers trying to manipulate the

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system.

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It just raised the thought about that conversation we've

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had recently.

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Yeah.

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I would agree with your comment and observation that

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because it does abut Stuart, they're

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having to do all that perimeter street paving, and so they

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're absorbing all of that infrastructure

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cost that has to then be rolled in over the lots, whereas

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some of that other development

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down the road will not have some of that cost, and that's

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probably why they've pulled it

273
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:17,320
back a little bit.

274
00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:18,320
No, that makes sense.

275
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,320
Be just a guess.

276
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,399
Any other questions on the plats?

277
00:11:25,399 --> 00:11:33,039
Okay.

278
00:11:33,039 --> 00:11:35,860
Do we want, at this time in our work session, you want to

279
00:11:35,860 --> 00:11:37,559
address your item on the minutes,

280
00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,000
and then we'll come back and do our two staff reports?

281
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,000
Sure.

282
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,710
We'll wait until the regular session to discuss the minutes

283
00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:45,000
.

284
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,000
Not in work session at all?

285
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,000
Okay.

286
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:50,000
All right.

287
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,379
Seeing that we don't have any other discussion on minutes,

288
00:11:53,379 --> 00:11:55,320
on plats, then we'll move on into

289
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,610
our work session reports, and I'll turn that over to Ron

290
00:11:58,610 --> 00:11:59,919
for introduction.

291
00:11:59,919 --> 00:12:01,960
Thank you, Chair.

292
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,799
We have Beverly Zant, our DRC administrator, present this

293
00:12:06,799 --> 00:12:07,519
item.

294
00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:12,440
And with this presentation, we passed out, staff passed out

295
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,519
an email from a citizen,

296
00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:18,779
and the questions posed will be addressed by Beverly as

297
00:12:18,779 --> 00:12:19,480
well.

298
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:29,320
So with that, turn it over to Beverly.

299
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,440
Good evening, Mr. Chairman and commissioners.

300
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,519
In response to some questions and requests for information

301
00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:37,399
that were given to staff,

302
00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:38,960
we have two presentations this evening.

303
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,129
The first presentation has to do with notification of

304
00:12:42,129 --> 00:12:44,600
public hearings and public meetings.

305
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,090
This is basically addressing our requirements, our policies

306
00:12:48,090 --> 00:12:49,200
and procedures.

307
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,480
Generally, there are two state statutes that guide staff in

308
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,480
their public notification procedures.

309
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,529
Section 211-006 has to do with the publication of

310
00:13:02,529 --> 00:13:04,600
notification to the public.

311
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,070
It requires the 15th day before the day of the hearing that

312
00:13:07,070 --> 00:13:08,159
notice be published in a

313
00:13:08,159 --> 00:13:10,080
newspaper of general circulation.

314
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,679
For us, that's the Denton Record Chronicle.

315
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,200
Although it does say 15, the standard for staff is 17 days,

316
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:17,279
and we typically anticipate

317
00:13:17,279 --> 00:13:19,679
getting those notices out to the paper three weeks in

318
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:21,200
advance to make sure that we hit

319
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:25,279
that 17-day mark.

320
00:13:25,279 --> 00:13:27,840
So we have a three-week lead time in getting those

321
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,840
publication notifications set.

322
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,970
The second one has to do with the property owner

323
00:13:32,970 --> 00:13:35,080
notification, which calls for before

324
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:36,240
the 10th day of the hearing.

325
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,370
Written notice shall be provided to property owners within

326
00:13:39,370 --> 00:13:41,320
200 feet of the proposed change

327
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,320
in zoning.

328
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,259
Again, this is another example of staff getting ahead of

329
00:13:46,259 --> 00:13:46,879
that.

330
00:13:46,879 --> 00:13:51,620
We usually require 12 days, so that's our goals to get

331
00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:54,200
those posted before the 12th

332
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:55,200
day.

333
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,230
These are these two guiding principles that we use in most

334
00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:59,759
of our public notification

335
00:13:59,759 --> 00:14:04,919
procedures, and what state law calls for.

336
00:14:04,919 --> 00:14:09,009
Just to add some additional detail to what state law asks

337
00:14:09,009 --> 00:14:11,200
for, it calls for property

338
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,370
owner notification to be based on the recently approved

339
00:14:15,370 --> 00:14:18,120
municipal tax roll of real property

340
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,100
within 200 feet of the property for which the rezoning is

341
00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:22,480
proposed, and it calls for

342
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,200
it to be addressed with postage paid in U.S. mail.

343
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,629
Our debt and development code calls for an additional

344
00:14:29,629 --> 00:14:32,000
standard that we utilize certified

345
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,480
mail for that 200-foot notification procedure.

346
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,779
And if you see, we have an example of what our -- and most

347
00:14:37,779 --> 00:14:38,879
of you have probably seen

348
00:14:38,879 --> 00:14:42,240
these as we get the return notices -- of what our notices

349
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,960
look like and what -- that are

350
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,759
sent out.

351
00:14:46,759 --> 00:14:51,570
Again, this is what the minimum requirements are for the

352
00:14:51,570 --> 00:14:54,360
Texas local government code for

353
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,440
zoning changes, replats, and residential replats.

354
00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,039
For published notices, all three are required.

355
00:15:00,039 --> 00:15:02,950
And for zoning change and residential replats, notification

356
00:15:02,950 --> 00:15:04,879
to property owners is also required.

357
00:15:04,879 --> 00:15:07,169
In addition to that, the City of Denton does a mailed

358
00:15:07,169 --> 00:15:09,200
notice to residents within 500 feet

359
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:10,580
as a courtesy.

360
00:15:10,580 --> 00:15:14,019
This doesn't count towards the ultimate 20% requirement

361
00:15:14,019 --> 00:15:16,279
that would trigger a supermajority,

362
00:15:16,279 --> 00:15:19,039
but is a courtesy notice to residents.

363
00:15:19,039 --> 00:15:22,370
The -- occasionally these are often -- probably more often

364
00:15:22,370 --> 00:15:24,720
than not, these are duplicated,

365
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,480
and it's very possible that residents get both the 200-foot

366
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,360
response and also the courtesy

367
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,600
notice within 500 feet.

368
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,330
In addition to that, for variances, only a public meeting

369
00:15:36,330 --> 00:15:37,360
is required.

370
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,610
The City of Denton does published notice, mailed notice to

371
00:15:40,610 --> 00:15:42,200
property owners, and also

372
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,830
mailed notice to residents within 500 feet, exceeding the

373
00:15:44,830 --> 00:15:46,039
local government code in all

374
00:15:46,039 --> 00:15:51,840
categories.

375
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,669
In addition to the posting -- in addition to the

376
00:15:54,669 --> 00:15:57,039
publication and the notification of

377
00:15:57,039 --> 00:16:02,639
property owners within 200 feet, staff also posts a sign on

378
00:16:02,639 --> 00:16:04,480
the subject tract.

379
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,129
Here's an example of a sign that was provided by one staff

380
00:16:07,129 --> 00:16:08,679
member, and this is called for

381
00:16:08,679 --> 00:16:12,259
in Denton Development Code, Section 3544, requiring the

382
00:16:12,259 --> 00:16:13,960
posting of a sign on the subject

383
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,139
property.

384
00:16:15,139 --> 00:16:18,299
But we have taken it still a step further, and we usually

385
00:16:18,299 --> 00:16:20,320
get out way ahead of notification

386
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:25,100
by putting on our current projects page anticipated action

387
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:28,639
and items that would be for consideration.

388
00:16:28,639 --> 00:16:30,700
We update that, I believe, weekly.

389
00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:33,970
So we usually are way ahead as we start to get closer to

390
00:16:33,970 --> 00:16:36,480
the anticipated date that information

391
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:37,919
is updated fairly regularly.

392
00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:41,700
So on our current project page, we also have just

393
00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:44,799
information to the general public.

394
00:16:44,799 --> 00:16:46,779
In looking at this, you know, we really took this

395
00:16:46,779 --> 00:16:48,879
opportunity, and we appreciate the commission

396
00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:51,850
bringing this to our attention, and we are looking at ways

397
00:16:51,850 --> 00:16:53,519
that we can continue to improve

398
00:16:53,519 --> 00:16:54,519
this.

399
00:16:54,519 --> 00:16:55,980
We understand occasionally we have folks who come up here

400
00:16:55,980 --> 00:16:57,320
and say, "I didn't get my notice,"

401
00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:58,960
or, "I wasn't aware of it."

402
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,870
And there's always -- I think everywhere I've worked, there

403
00:17:00,870 --> 00:17:06,039
's always been that sort of issue

404
00:17:06,039 --> 00:17:07,559
that has come up with the public.

405
00:17:07,559 --> 00:17:11,019
So we took a look around at some of the surrounding cities

406
00:17:11,019 --> 00:17:13,480
and what their local practices are.

407
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,420
We looked, as you can see, at Denton, Plano, Frisco, McKin

408
00:17:17,420 --> 00:17:19,119
ney, and Lewisville.

409
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,980
Where there's a check, it indicates that the jurisdiction

410
00:17:21,980 --> 00:17:24,720
participates in that sort of notification.

411
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,490
As you can see, Denton and Plano are the only two cities

412
00:17:27,490 --> 00:17:29,799
that do the 500-foot courtesy notice

413
00:17:29,799 --> 00:17:32,359
to residents.

414
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,059
All jurisdictions post signs, which is the standard

415
00:17:35,059 --> 00:17:36,960
practice these days in most cities,

416
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,859
but only the city of Denton actually takes the sign out and

417
00:17:39,859 --> 00:17:41,519
posts it for the applicant.

418
00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:44,420
All the other jurisdictions require that the applicant pay

419
00:17:44,420 --> 00:17:46,359
for, purchase, pick up, post,

420
00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:47,799
and certify the sign was posted.

421
00:17:47,799 --> 00:17:52,799
So we do an extra step to assist our applicants in getting

422
00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:56,079
that notification information out

423
00:17:56,079 --> 00:18:00,150
and making it noticed by area residents as they drive past

424
00:18:00,150 --> 00:18:02,079
it by posting that sign.

425
00:18:02,079 --> 00:18:05,960
And here's just a couple of other notification -- you can

426
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,200
see a notification buffer that

427
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:09,200
looks very much like ours.

428
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,900
I believe it's from the city of Plano, and then below I

429
00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:13,680
have just posted an example of

430
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,240
the posting requirements City of Frisco provides to their

431
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,880
community -- I mean, to their applicants

432
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:27,000
as they are required to follow directions for sign posting.

433
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,650
In addition to those requirements in the local government

434
00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:31,599
code, we have additional requirements,

435
00:18:31,599 --> 00:18:33,519
I think, as you all are aware of, that are in the Texas

436
00:18:33,519 --> 00:18:34,759
government code as they relate

437
00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:36,559
to open meetings.

438
00:18:36,559 --> 00:18:40,200
And the information is in chapter 551.

439
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,390
I pulled some information from the open meetings handbook

440
00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:44,000
that was posted on the attorney general's

441
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,000
website.

442
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,170
And generally, I think you are familiar with most of these

443
00:18:47,170 --> 00:18:48,319
provisions that the meeting

444
00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:51,109
be open to the public, be posted at least 72 hours before

445
00:18:51,109 --> 00:18:52,319
the scheduled time of the

446
00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:53,680
meeting.

447
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,220
We typically get those agendas posted Friday well in

448
00:18:56,220 --> 00:18:58,140
advance of the meeting and certainly

449
00:18:58,140 --> 00:19:00,160
more than 72 hours.

450
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,640
It be posted on the city's website and also physically

451
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,559
posted in a particular location,

452
00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:06,660
and be sufficient to apprise the general public of the

453
00:19:06,660 --> 00:19:08,119
subjects to be considered during the

454
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:09,119
meeting.

455
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,400
And I think we take great care and have revised

456
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,519
occasionally some of our captions to make

457
00:19:13,519 --> 00:19:16,900
sure that the public understands what is actually being

458
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:17,880
considered.

459
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,829
This is a -- I think a pretty standard practice for, I

460
00:19:20,829 --> 00:19:23,079
think, more seasoned planners as we

461
00:19:23,079 --> 00:19:24,079
look at those.

462
00:19:24,079 --> 00:19:26,700
It is very important for us to understand -- to make sure

463
00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:28,000
that we understand it and

464
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,829
that a general layperson looking at the caption could

465
00:19:30,829 --> 00:19:33,119
understand what was being considered.

466
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,890
Denton also does not have this requirement, but strongly

467
00:19:37,890 --> 00:19:40,799
encourages and certainly we would

468
00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:42,890
bring it to your attention, I think have brought to your

469
00:19:42,890 --> 00:19:44,240
attention, when an applicant does

470
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,230
not want to have a neighborhood meeting or has decided not

471
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:47,519
to have a neighborhood meeting.

472
00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:49,140
Usually the neighbors will bring it to your attention as

473
00:19:49,140 --> 00:19:50,039
well if they haven't because

474
00:19:50,039 --> 00:19:54,279
I think most of our residents are aware of this practice.

475
00:19:54,279 --> 00:19:57,480
Here's a recent one that was done on the United Way project

476
00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:58,839
that you may recall.

477
00:19:58,839 --> 00:20:03,980
But in addition to that, in scouring some of our materials

478
00:20:03,980 --> 00:20:06,480
in our notification folder

479
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,599
that we all share, I found some handouts that we have

480
00:20:10,599 --> 00:20:13,519
typically handed out, but somehow

481
00:20:13,519 --> 00:20:15,559
I think that practice has fallen away.

482
00:20:15,559 --> 00:20:16,559
I was talking to staff.

483
00:20:16,559 --> 00:20:17,559
I said, these are so great.

484
00:20:17,559 --> 00:20:19,200
Where did these come from?

485
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:20,880
And Mike Bell said, oh, I did those.

486
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:21,880
They look terrific.

487
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,339
And certainly it's something that we have taken to

488
00:20:25,339 --> 00:20:28,240
explaining the process to the attendees

489
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,329
that attend those neighborhood meetings, but I think as a

490
00:20:30,329 --> 00:20:31,400
general practice it would be

491
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,910
useful to also distribute these, kind of letting them know

492
00:20:33,910 --> 00:20:35,400
this is not the public hearing.

493
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,690
This is a neighborhood meeting and here's when the public

494
00:20:37,690 --> 00:20:38,799
hearing is and here's how

495
00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:41,200
that goes and here's what a hearing is.

496
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,650
Here's what a public hearing is because as germane as that

497
00:20:44,650 --> 00:20:46,480
is to our daily conversation

498
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,079
and what we talk about, I don't know that everyone always

499
00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:50,440
understands that that is their

500
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,960
opportunity to speak and so we try and articulate that and

501
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:54,720
make that clear that there is multiple

502
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,039
opportunities for them to give input.

503
00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:00,089
And so this certainly helps with that and I hope to reutil

504
00:21:00,089 --> 00:21:01,960
ize these in those neighborhood

505
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:02,960
meetings.

506
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,049
We typically also give the applicants some guidance about

507
00:21:05,049 --> 00:21:06,119
how those meetings should go

508
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,279
and they are almost invariably attended by a staff member

509
00:21:10,279 --> 00:21:12,240
or case manager and I also

510
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:17,400
attend many of those meetings in addition to the staff

511
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:18,480
member.

512
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,609
Just to talk and this actually will address some of the

513
00:21:21,609 --> 00:21:23,640
questions that were provided from,

514
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,730
I think, the citizen who had submitted some questions that

515
00:21:26,730 --> 00:21:28,160
you all have before you and

516
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,450
it has to do with how we notify and how we come up with

517
00:21:30,450 --> 00:21:31,759
that list and what does that

518
00:21:31,759 --> 00:21:34,200
list come from.

519
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,230
Essentially these are, I think, I probably am dating myself

520
00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:38,559
but I remember in very old

521
00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:41,680
times using the little protractor to draw the circles but

522
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,440
we are much more sophisticated

523
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:48,000
these days and we use GIS to identify the 200 foot buffer

524
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,519
and the 500 foot courtesy

525
00:21:50,519 --> 00:21:53,029
buffer and if you look at the image on the left you will

526
00:21:53,029 --> 00:21:54,559
see the subject track in cyan

527
00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:56,079
blue.

528
00:21:56,079 --> 00:21:58,900
We then run a query to GIS asking it to select all

529
00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:01,319
properties within 200 feet.

530
00:22:01,319 --> 00:22:05,869
If the buffer even touches the property line in any way,

531
00:22:05,869 --> 00:22:08,480
then that subject track, that

532
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,369
piece of property is included in the database and you can

533
00:22:11,369 --> 00:22:13,319
see in this case there is a 200

534
00:22:13,319 --> 00:22:16,079
foot and a 500 foot.

535
00:22:16,079 --> 00:22:18,269
What ends up happening after that is that a table is

536
00:22:18,269 --> 00:22:19,680
generated off that buffer.

537
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,259
It selects all the parcels and populates a spreadsheet and

538
00:22:23,259 --> 00:22:25,480
that spreadsheet is then exported

539
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,640
to Excel and we now have a database for both the 200 foot

540
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,599
and the 500 foot.

541
00:22:31,599 --> 00:22:33,079
How accurate are they?

542
00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:35,630
I did a little research into this and I understand I think

543
00:22:35,630 --> 00:22:36,799
it's pretty typical.

544
00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:42,420
We get the plats, the city receives those and our GIS team

545
00:22:42,420 --> 00:22:45,119
updates the parcels based

546
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:46,480
on the plats.

547
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,170
They look at those, they work with the meets and balance

548
00:22:49,170 --> 00:22:50,839
descriptions and they basically

549
00:22:50,839 --> 00:22:54,009
update the parcels based on the subdivision plat that is

550
00:22:54,009 --> 00:22:56,279
provided and then work with existing

551
00:22:56,279 --> 00:22:59,200
tracks to make sure that they are as accurate as we can get

552
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,160
them for existing subdivisions.

553
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,980
We provide that information, we share that information with

554
00:23:04,980 --> 00:23:06,759
the tax appraisal district

555
00:23:06,759 --> 00:23:08,640
and they utilize that for their parcel layer.

556
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,230
So it's the most accurate, it's as accurate as the county

557
00:23:12,230 --> 00:23:14,000
has and I think probably a higher

558
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,329
degree of accuracy than we've probably ever seen in the

559
00:23:16,329 --> 00:23:17,759
public notification process by

560
00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:19,400
means of GIS.

561
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,319
So this is how those are selected.

562
00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:24,619
From there, that list that's generated, that spreadsheet

563
00:23:24,619 --> 00:23:26,119
which is essentially an Excel,

564
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,380
we can export to an Excel spreadsheet, that is sent to the

565
00:23:28,380 --> 00:23:29,599
planner who is managing the

566
00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:30,920
case.

567
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,339
That planner takes that list, scrubs it a little to make

568
00:23:33,339 --> 00:23:34,720
sure there's no duplications

569
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,849
within the list and cleans it up to make sure that

570
00:23:37,849 --> 00:23:40,200
everything is there and then sends it

571
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,170
to Athenia who usually sends that out to ClickToMail which

572
00:23:43,170 --> 00:23:45,359
is our mail service provider who mails

573
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:46,359
those out.

574
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,680
The 200 foot notifications as you're aware are through

575
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,200
certified mail and the 500 foot

576
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,440
notification are by US mail.

577
00:23:54,440 --> 00:24:00,099
Again, in looking at this, we look at how many returned

578
00:24:00,099 --> 00:24:03,339
certified mail we get, we look

579
00:24:03,339 --> 00:24:06,809
at how many returns we get in general and how we can

580
00:24:06,809 --> 00:24:09,440
improve the process because I think

581
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,970
it always is something that requires evaluation and

582
00:24:11,970 --> 00:24:14,079
certainly there's some questions I think

583
00:24:14,079 --> 00:24:15,680
that occasionally come up.

584
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,420
So I think in looking at our process evaluation, we talked

585
00:24:19,420 --> 00:24:21,960
about the effectiveness of certified

586
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:22,960
mail.

587
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,180
It's called for in our ordinance but if you receive

588
00:24:26,180 --> 00:24:28,400
certified mail and you're busy and

589
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,839
if you don't know what it's about, you may not take the

590
00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:32,200
time to go to the post office

591
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,539
and pick that up and you may not do it in a timely fashion

592
00:24:35,539 --> 00:24:36,279
either.

593
00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:39,230
So certainly for some of our more busy property owners,

594
00:24:39,230 --> 00:24:41,240
this might present an impediment if

595
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,640
they aren't there to sign for it.

596
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,059
They've got to go now and make a special trip to get it and

597
00:24:45,059 --> 00:24:46,279
if they're not sure what it

598
00:24:46,279 --> 00:24:50,519
is, they may not take the time to do that.

599
00:24:50,519 --> 00:24:53,650
We are looking at the idea of maybe looking at more

600
00:24:53,650 --> 00:24:55,920
frequent updates to city parcel data

601
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,000
set.

602
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,250
We essentially are working with a data set that's posted by

603
00:25:01,250 --> 00:25:03,339
the tax appraisal district

604
00:25:03,339 --> 00:25:06,710
once a year in July when they certify the property valu

605
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:08,759
ations, they post that list on

606
00:25:08,759 --> 00:25:09,880
their website.

607
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,940
We work with that list of property owner notifications but

608
00:25:12,940 --> 00:25:14,640
we get monthly supplements.

609
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,359
And so we can, we have historically interpreted that

610
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,200
recently approved tax roll language to

611
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,250
mean the certified list but now we're looking at that and

612
00:25:24,250 --> 00:25:25,880
we're saying maybe we can use

613
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,329
those supplementals and we'll work with legal if we can use

614
00:25:28,329 --> 00:25:29,640
those monthly supplementals

615
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,420
because that really reflects what has been filed and

616
00:25:32,420 --> 00:25:33,880
recorded by the county and they

617
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,859
give us those updates monthly.

618
00:25:35,859 --> 00:25:38,369
Maybe that would be a more effective list to use in the

619
00:25:38,369 --> 00:25:39,880
future as we go forward if that

620
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,759
certainly meets the requirements of local government code.

621
00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:44,230
It has in other communities I've worked with but we would

622
00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:46,640
want to be as correct as possible

623
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,079
in looking at those updates.

624
00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:51,079
Keeping in mind that also that the tax appraisal district

625
00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:52,400
has a lag of their own.

626
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,170
Just because it's filed doesn't mean it jumps on to the

627
00:25:55,170 --> 00:25:56,920
website the next day or jumps on

628
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,200
to their GIS parcel list the next day.

629
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,599
Sometimes there's a two or three month lag there as well.

630
00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:06,660
So trying to make sure that we are working with as current

631
00:26:06,660 --> 00:26:08,240
as we can, as current as what

632
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,430
they have on their website is I think probably our highest

633
00:26:11,430 --> 00:26:13,440
goal and probably meets the intent

634
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,259
of local government code more than arguing between what's

635
00:26:17,259 --> 00:26:19,240
certified and what's not.

636
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,599
And then evaluate return notices.

637
00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:23,140
Some staff members have looked at those, some that have

638
00:26:23,140 --> 00:26:24,119
come from other communities and

639
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,369
said well there's a whole list of items they have to fill

640
00:26:27,369 --> 00:26:29,319
out and maybe it would be better

641
00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:32,039
if the applicant's name was automatically populated on that

642
00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:32,920
return notice.

643
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,710
I know there's been occasions where we're like we got it

644
00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:35,920
but they didn't put their name.

645
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:36,920
We're trying to figure out who it's from.

646
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,680
It certainly counts but we need to figure out where it

647
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:40,319
counts.

648
00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:43,839
And maybe taking a look at simplifying that response sheet

649
00:26:43,839 --> 00:26:45,519
is something that we could

650
00:26:45,519 --> 00:26:49,960
do in the near future I think and update that.

651
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,180
And then make neighborhood meetings mandatory for rezoning

652
00:26:53,180 --> 00:26:55,000
cases, perhaps for specific use

653
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,799
permits as well.

654
00:26:56,799 --> 00:26:58,890
This would be something that we could consider with some of

655
00:26:58,890 --> 00:27:00,119
the code updates that are coming

656
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,079
if should that be your direction to give us.

657
00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:07,170
We certainly have that expectation and we don't usually, I

658
00:27:07,170 --> 00:27:09,160
don't think it always presents

659
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,400
well to the commission if that step is skipped.

660
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,829
So I think maybe given your direction we could consider

661
00:27:16,829 --> 00:27:19,680
integrating that as well.

662
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,500
And I'm glad to answer any questions regarding the

663
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:23,079
notification procedures that you might

664
00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:24,079
have.

665
00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:25,079
Commissioner Beck.

666
00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:26,079
Thank you, Chair.

667
00:27:26,079 --> 00:27:28,480
Thank you very much for your presentation.

668
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,420
I will readily concede the City of Dent does a great job of

669
00:27:32,420 --> 00:27:34,279
trying to get the word out

670
00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:36,640
in some cases above and beyond.

671
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,400
But having said that, obviously we're getting some

672
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,759
complaints that they're not hearing about

673
00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:42,759
this.

674
00:27:42,759 --> 00:27:45,589
Did I understand you correctly to say that these

675
00:27:45,589 --> 00:27:48,160
neighborhood meetings are not mandatory

676
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:49,160
currently?

677
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,160
They're not.

678
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,490
We strongly encourage it, but it's not a call for in the

679
00:27:53,490 --> 00:27:54,920
development code.

680
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,670
But we would always, as you know, we always make a point of

681
00:27:59,670 --> 00:28:01,519
noting that to you.

682
00:28:01,519 --> 00:28:03,400
It's so strongly encouraged, I think, that it's routinely

683
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:03,920
followed.

684
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,960
But it might be a better idea to just make it mandatory.

685
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,400
So that's something we could look at and consider.

686
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:09,400
Absolutely.

687
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,099
And I think the updates more, I think a couple things will

688
00:28:12,099 --> 00:28:12,799
help that.

689
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:14,950
Some of the things that I presented, I think all of those

690
00:28:14,950 --> 00:28:16,680
could potentially help that notification

691
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,680
effectiveness.

692
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,960
The 200 feet and the 500 foot, where is that measured from?

693
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,109
From the outer property line, from the center of the

694
00:28:27,109 --> 00:28:28,200
property?

695
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,799
It's measured from the boundary of the subject track.

696
00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:33,980
So it's 200 feet out from each boundary of the subject

697
00:28:33,980 --> 00:28:34,559
track.

698
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:36,119
It's not from a point.

699
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,799
It's measured from a polygon.

700
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:39,880
So it's not measured from the center point.

701
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,599
It's measured from the polygon, which is the subject track

702
00:28:42,599 --> 00:28:43,160
itself.

703
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,160
Great.

704
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:45,160
Okay.

705
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:51,619
One of the things I discussed with them in all, that this

706
00:28:51,619 --> 00:28:53,319
list that we create from the

707
00:28:53,319 --> 00:28:57,920
appraisal district, as you mentioned, it's based on a year

708
00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,319
to year basis, but there's

709
00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:01,319
these monthly supplements.

710
00:29:01,319 --> 00:29:05,410
But you all are viewing just the annual report, is that

711
00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:07,480
correct, when you make the list?

712
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:08,920
A couple different data sets.

713
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,359
We have a data set that's maintained by the city, our own

714
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:12,319
parcel data set.

715
00:29:12,319 --> 00:29:14,519
And those monthly supplements come in.

716
00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:17,839
We basically merge those based on the property ID or new

717
00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:18,799
ones.

718
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:21,930
But the one that is being used by our GS team is the

719
00:29:21,930 --> 00:29:24,319
certified role that is posted on the

720
00:29:24,319 --> 00:29:26,940
tax appraisal website that I think they call it the

721
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:29,200
certified land value, and they do that.

722
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,319
They issue that once a year in July.

723
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:34,119
I tried to get more information about that from them, but I

724
00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:35,400
was -- no one would return

725
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,819
my call, but I did look on their website, and it is posted

726
00:29:38,819 --> 00:29:40,519
yearly, and it's the role

727
00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:42,640
that the valuations are based on.

728
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,250
But I don't know that a more regular look at that, if we

729
00:29:46,250 --> 00:29:48,319
use the monthly updates, or

730
00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:51,279
at least every couple months if we had updates, because,

731
00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:53,559
you know, running through some scenarios

732
00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:56,650
with the GIS team, I said if something is -- let's just say

733
00:29:56,650 --> 00:29:58,200
, for example, something

734
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,140
is subdivided in May and filed in May, that may not make

735
00:30:02,140 --> 00:30:04,359
the certified tax roll list by

736
00:30:04,359 --> 00:30:07,170
July -- it may not make the website, you know, or the

737
00:30:07,170 --> 00:30:09,559
certified tax roll list by that time,

738
00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:13,339
and updates to the parcels may not occur until, you know,

739
00:30:13,339 --> 00:30:15,480
maybe four months later, then we

740
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,160
wouldn't see that updated property ownership until over a

741
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:20,119
year later.

742
00:30:20,119 --> 00:30:24,920
So the supplemental updates, we are looking at that.

743
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:26,900
I've had a preliminary conversation with legal, but I think

744
00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:28,240
we want to sort of make sure that

745
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,000
we are in the strictest compliance with local government

746
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,680
code, but thinking of the spirit

747
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,029
of the local government code, which is to get the notice

748
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:36,200
out in an effective way, I

749
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,019
think that it's probably time for us to maybe see how -- if

750
00:30:40,019 --> 00:30:42,559
we can update that more often.

751
00:30:42,559 --> 00:30:45,430
Let me suggest maybe an easy fix to this, and you correct

752
00:30:45,430 --> 00:30:47,119
me if I'm wrong, but why not

753
00:30:47,119 --> 00:30:49,720
go ahead and send two letters out?

754
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,980
And I -- you know, we can debate the certified issue, not

755
00:30:51,980 --> 00:30:53,319
-- you bring up an interesting

756
00:30:53,319 --> 00:30:57,400
point why people would avoid that altogether, but why not

757
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,519
send one letter to the person

758
00:30:59,519 --> 00:31:04,690
that's on the tax appraisal rolls and one to the address

759
00:31:04,690 --> 00:31:05,759
itself?

760
00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:09,240
And perhaps we wouldn't know the name.

761
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,519
I almost defeat the purpose of putting occupant on

762
00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:13,559
something, you know, because people toss

763
00:31:13,559 --> 00:31:18,309
it, but perhaps stamping that envelope somehow with

764
00:31:18,309 --> 00:31:21,480
important notice, you know, in bold red

765
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,890
letters or something, sending it to both the address where

766
00:31:25,890 --> 00:31:28,119
probably a new owner does live

767
00:31:28,119 --> 00:31:30,960
and to the one that's on the appraisal district.

768
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,680
Is that a conceivable -- I think we do it.

769
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,319
I think with the 500 foot, we take the same polygon, we

770
00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:39,640
shoot out 500 feet, and it goes

771
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,000
to the resident.

772
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,299
So the goal is to -- the local government code says you

773
00:31:44,299 --> 00:31:45,599
have to send to the property

774
00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:48,430
owner, but we have said, okay, we'll do that, but we also

775
00:31:48,430 --> 00:31:49,740
want the resident to know because

776
00:31:49,740 --> 00:31:51,579
just because they don't own the property doesn't mean they

777
00:31:51,579 --> 00:31:52,119
don't care.

778
00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:53,920
So you do that for the 200 and 500?

779
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,609
We do it for the 200 and the 500, so it's very likely that

780
00:31:56,609 --> 00:31:57,599
if you own the house you

781
00:31:57,599 --> 00:32:00,799
live in and you're within the buffer, you're going to get

782
00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:01,759
two notices.

783
00:32:01,759 --> 00:32:07,000
So but you would -- for the official sort of response that

784
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,960
counts towards our 20%, we

785
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,650
always are looking for that return notice, so I don't --

786
00:32:12,650 --> 00:32:14,160
but they usually are getting

787
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,670
both -- and I ask the planners who look at the list, I say,

788
00:32:16,670 --> 00:32:18,240
do you eliminate the duplications?

789
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,279
They said, no, we don't do that.

790
00:32:20,279 --> 00:32:22,599
Two notices go out.

791
00:32:22,599 --> 00:32:26,390
Is the owner's name on the appraisal district's list on

792
00:32:26,390 --> 00:32:27,680
both letters?

793
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,519
I mean, because, again, if a new owner's there and sees the

794
00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:32,079
old owner's name, they're going

795
00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:34,400
to write return to sender on it.

796
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,779
So do we make that distinction when we send it to the

797
00:32:37,779 --> 00:32:38,680
address?

798
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,180
I'm guessing and I'm sure that staff can add something to

799
00:32:41,180 --> 00:32:44,079
this, but if it's based on GIS,

800
00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:46,829
which comes from the tax appraisal district, we don't have

801
00:32:46,829 --> 00:32:48,079
the resident's names.

802
00:32:48,079 --> 00:32:51,279
We usually just have the CITUS address and then we have the

803
00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:52,519
mailing address.

804
00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:54,960
And so probably it says -- I'm imagining that it says

805
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,640
resident, but tell me --

806
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:57,640
Resident, okay.

807
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,279
It says resident on it.

808
00:32:59,279 --> 00:33:03,700
So it may not be the name because we're working off the

809
00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:05,799
data set and the -- as you know, the

810
00:33:05,799 --> 00:33:07,799
tax appraisal district doesn't really care who lives there.

811
00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:09,279
They care who's paying the taxes.

812
00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:10,279
Right.

813
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:11,279
And as we mentioned, that's probably going to --

814
00:33:11,279 --> 00:33:13,920
So it comes into them as resident.

815
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:14,920
Okay.

816
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:21,009
So probably one way to curb the intent or somebody wanting

817
00:33:21,009 --> 00:33:26,720
to just toss it may be, again, signifying

818
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,279
on the envelope itself the importance of --

819
00:33:29,279 --> 00:33:32,680
Or rezoning notification or something.

820
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,769
Definitely that's something we could add to our list that

821
00:33:34,769 --> 00:33:35,839
could be on the envelope.

822
00:33:35,839 --> 00:33:39,589
If we have standard printed envelopes, it seems that a

823
00:33:39,589 --> 00:33:41,640
little note could be added to

824
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,319
that rezoning considered or public hearing involving your

825
00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:45,640
property or something like

826
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:46,640
that.

827
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:47,640
Okay.

828
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,640
I've got some other questions, but I'll defer for now.

829
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:51,640
You have a floor.

830
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,640
Go ahead.

831
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,640
This has been an item that's important and we'll make sure

832
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,000
you get your questions answered.

833
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,519
The signs, how big are they?

834
00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:01,890
I want to say they are not a lot bigger than a real estate

835
00:34:01,890 --> 00:34:03,160
sign because I think we use

836
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,880
the real estate posting boards, but I want to say they're

837
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,279
probably 2 by 3 feet.

838
00:34:07,279 --> 00:34:08,280
Is that probably about --

839
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,280
Yes.

840
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,280
What is it?

841
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:11,280
2 by 4?

842
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:12,280
2 by 3.

843
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:13,280
2 by 3.

844
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,280
Okay.

845
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,730
And they're placed on the outer perimeters of the property

846
00:34:16,730 --> 00:34:18,039
where somebody walking by,

847
00:34:18,039 --> 00:34:20,360
driving, you see it, rather than --

848
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,530
Generally I think it's been my practice when I've had to

849
00:34:22,530 --> 00:34:23,920
post signs, and I would imagine

850
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,599
it's the staff's practice here as well.

851
00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:26,599
I can confirm.

852
00:34:26,599 --> 00:34:29,150
But generally you want them to be visible from the driving

853
00:34:29,150 --> 00:34:30,360
right away so that people

854
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,920
driving by, it catches their attention.

855
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,170
So it really is so that folks who live in the general area

856
00:34:36,170 --> 00:34:37,840
who pass that site in their

857
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,320
cars can see it.

858
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,880
So I would post it on a hard corner if it was a sign that

859
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:44,360
was --

860
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,239
So is a corner a lot?

861
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:47,639
You still just have the one sign?

862
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:50,039
If I posted it on a hard corner, I would probably post it

863
00:34:50,039 --> 00:34:51,679
so it's visible from the more traveled

864
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:52,679
roadway.

865
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,150
The goal is to try and -- I think we all try and maximize

866
00:34:55,150 --> 00:34:56,440
exposure of it as much as we

867
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:57,440
can.

868
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,639
Maybe an extra one though where we put it on --

869
00:34:59,639 --> 00:35:01,519
I don't know if we've ever done dual posting, but that's

870
00:35:01,519 --> 00:35:03,239
certainly -- if it's a hard corner,

871
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:04,239
that would make sense.

872
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:05,239
Okay.

873
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:06,239
I thought you did.

874
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,239
Do too?

875
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:08,239
Okay.

876
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:09,239
Do too if it's a hard corner.

877
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:10,239
Yeah, I'm sorry.

878
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:15,159
And I thought I had one other.

879
00:35:15,159 --> 00:35:16,159
I think that's it.

880
00:35:16,159 --> 00:35:17,159
Thank you.

881
00:35:17,159 --> 00:35:18,159
Okay.

882
00:35:18,159 --> 00:35:19,159
Commissioner Bruegel.

883
00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:22,360
Commissioner Beck stole most of my questions, but I still

884
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:23,599
have a couple left.

885
00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:24,599
So I think that's great.

886
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:28,880
I didn't know that the city sent a certified letter to the

887
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,199
property owner and a separate

888
00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:33,960
letter also to the resident.

889
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,440
Does the city do that for multifamily housing as well?

890
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,840
I'm thinking like a big apartment building.

891
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,219
We've had a lot of things come up kind of in that Eagle and

892
00:35:44,219 --> 00:35:45,639
Welch sort of area.

893
00:35:45,639 --> 00:35:48,280
Are the residents who live in some of those apartment

894
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:49,960
buildings notified or is it just

895
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,119
the owner of the apartment?

896
00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:53,309
I don't know if it would just be sent to the office or if

897
00:35:53,309 --> 00:35:54,679
it would be sent to each individual

898
00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:55,679
property owner.

899
00:35:55,679 --> 00:35:58,000
Ron, I don't know if you can answer that question.

900
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,219
We typically send that to the site address and so it's just

901
00:36:01,219 --> 00:36:02,840
to the property address.

902
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,039
So it most likely would be to the property management that

903
00:36:06,039 --> 00:36:07,719
's on site that would receive

904
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,320
that, but we do not send it to individual units within that

905
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:12,960
multifamily complex.

906
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:13,960
Okay.

907
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,099
So the answer to your question is we don't send it to all

908
00:36:17,099 --> 00:36:18,079
the different.

909
00:36:18,079 --> 00:36:21,840
And do we require the property manager to maybe post that

910
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,599
in a public space in their

911
00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:27,840
building so that the residents would see it?

912
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,800
I'm thinking that that's not our requirement.

913
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,559
So it really is, you know, it's a multifaceted notification

914
00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:34,559
procedure.

915
00:36:34,559 --> 00:36:36,889
So we try and get the residents and we try and satisfy the

916
00:36:36,889 --> 00:36:38,519
government code with the property

917
00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:39,519
owners.

918
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:41,789
And then we thinking that we still haven't got everyone, we

919
00:36:41,789 --> 00:36:42,500
post the sign.

920
00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:45,489
So there is sort of the first safety net and then the

921
00:36:45,489 --> 00:36:48,280
second safety net, but we don't require

922
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,010
that they-- and I'm not sure that-- I would have to defer

923
00:36:51,010 --> 00:36:52,679
legal but I'm not sure how we

924
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:53,679
could make them do that.

925
00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:54,679
Right.

926
00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:57,320
But certainly if it's something that the property

927
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,719
management firm is concerned about, there

928
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,289
is nothing to preclude them from getting that information

929
00:37:02,289 --> 00:37:02,639
out.

930
00:37:02,639 --> 00:37:05,079
I think that addresses another question that was in the

931
00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:06,480
list that was provided that if

932
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,769
it's in a council member's district, should he notify all

933
00:37:09,769 --> 00:37:11,079
his constituents?

934
00:37:11,079 --> 00:37:14,219
Certainly these are things that if there's concern, that is

935
00:37:14,219 --> 00:37:15,599
sometimes the way things

936
00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,809
get around is by folks sharing information with other folks

937
00:37:18,809 --> 00:37:20,280
that if there is something

938
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,639
that is of grave concern that they certainly could get that

939
00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:23,920
information out by whatever

940
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,239
means is available to them.

941
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,570
So the answer to that-- the short answer is no, we don't

942
00:37:28,570 --> 00:37:30,039
require that, but it certainly

943
00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:32,639
wouldn't-- there's nothing that prevents them from dissemin

944
00:37:32,639 --> 00:37:33,800
ating that information.

945
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:34,800
Okay.

946
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,829
Two critiques that we often hear is that the-- and I think

947
00:37:37,829 --> 00:37:39,639
it's wonderful that the city does

948
00:37:39,639 --> 00:37:42,110
at least have the courtesy notice because other cities,

949
00:37:42,110 --> 00:37:43,480
many cities don't do that, but

950
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,670
one of the critiques that I often hear is that 500 feet isn

951
00:37:46,670 --> 00:37:47,599
't far enough.

952
00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:51,170
Has the city looked into expanding that to 750 feet or 1,

953
00:37:51,170 --> 00:37:53,280
000 feet and how much more that

954
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,360
might cost also the city to notify people when you double

955
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,039
that, the size of the notification

956
00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:01,039
circle?

957
00:38:01,039 --> 00:38:02,039
Has the city looked into that?

958
00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:03,400
I think it's come up.

959
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,730
I think that staff looks for additional direction on that

960
00:38:07,730 --> 00:38:10,840
as a planner has worked in other cities,

961
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:15,760
the 500 foot is the most generous I've ever seen and the--

962
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,559
certainly it is not the practice,

963
00:38:18,559 --> 00:38:21,199
but that doesn't mean that we can't have a practice that

964
00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:22,440
exceeds everybody.

965
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,559
And so I would say we'd look to additional guidance.

966
00:38:25,559 --> 00:38:29,199
It certainly is more than is required.

967
00:38:29,199 --> 00:38:32,260
It certainly is more than most other communities are doing,

968
00:38:32,260 --> 00:38:33,920
but we would look from direction

969
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,949
of this commission and the council should they decide that

970
00:38:36,949 --> 00:38:38,440
it isn't sufficient, then

971
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,559
that would be something that could be considered.

972
00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:42,559
That's your discretion.

973
00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:45,449
And I suppose that the-- by having the neighborhood meeting

974
00:38:45,449 --> 00:38:47,360
then too, we're really reaching the

975
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,039
entire, that entire neighborhood and not just-- I mean,

976
00:38:50,039 --> 00:38:51,880
because the people in the 200 and

977
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,969
500 foot will have gotten that notification, but then they

978
00:38:53,969 --> 00:38:55,039
'll be talking to their neighbors

979
00:38:55,039 --> 00:38:56,039
as well.

980
00:38:56,039 --> 00:38:57,039
Right.

981
00:38:57,039 --> 00:38:58,039
So it just might be something to look into.

982
00:38:58,039 --> 00:38:59,039
I'd be kind of curious to see that.

983
00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:00,039
I would look for some direction.

984
00:39:00,039 --> 00:39:02,880
The other one too that I often hear is that the signs are

985
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:04,800
too small because-- and I know

986
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,969
that they're clearly visible from the street, but you're

987
00:39:06,969 --> 00:39:08,320
passing by at 30 miles an hour.

988
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:09,320
What was that?

989
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,550
So is there-- so what size are the signs in the other

990
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:14,719
cities and can we get something

991
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,039
bigger?

992
00:39:17,039 --> 00:39:19,440
I think I have worked with bigger signs.

993
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,530
I also-- our signs were bright yellow and I don't know that

994
00:39:21,530 --> 00:39:22,360
our-- I think our signs

995
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:23,360
are white here.

996
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,980
So there's a couple of things that I think could be done to

997
00:39:26,980 --> 00:39:28,900
improve that-- to make them

998
00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:29,900
a little bit bigger.

999
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:34,829
I think that it's always a challenge to find a sign that is

1000
00:39:34,829 --> 00:39:37,480
, you know, that we can tote

1001
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,150
to the site and that we can-- I think that I had worked

1002
00:39:40,150 --> 00:39:41,400
with larger frame signs.

1003
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,360
I think this community also worked with larger frame signs

1004
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:44,480
that had like some wrought iron

1005
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,039
and bigger that weren't the standard ones that you could

1006
00:39:47,039 --> 00:39:48,360
buy and the wrought iron was

1007
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:49,360
getting stolen.

1008
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,460
But I think they are small and I think they're small

1009
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:53,119
because they're just easy to act-- to

1010
00:39:53,119 --> 00:39:54,119
get a hold of.

1011
00:39:54,119 --> 00:39:57,239
But I think we can look at maybe ways we could improve that

1012
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:58,199
sign face and--

1013
00:39:58,199 --> 00:39:59,199
Yeah.

1014
00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:00,900
Maybe the color because I think-- when I first saw it, I'm

1015
00:40:00,900 --> 00:40:02,119
like, "Well, it should be like

1016
00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:03,679
brighter, so like a yellow or something.

1017
00:40:03,679 --> 00:40:04,679
You can really see it."

1018
00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:05,679
Right.

1019
00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:06,679
Yeah.

1020
00:40:06,679 --> 00:40:07,679
I'd like to increase the visibility of the signs for sure.

1021
00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:09,250
It sounds like I've already thought of some ideas to

1022
00:40:09,250 --> 00:40:09,840
improve that.

1023
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:10,840
Yeah.

1024
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:11,840
I actually didn't think that just now but you're right.

1025
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,039
That is one thing that catches their eye and they may come

1026
00:40:14,039 --> 00:40:15,039
back and try and figure out

1027
00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:16,039
what that is.

1028
00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:17,039
Right.

1029
00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:18,039
Well, that was my question.

1030
00:40:18,039 --> 00:40:19,039
Those are my questions.

1031
00:40:19,039 --> 00:40:20,039
Thank you.

1032
00:40:20,039 --> 00:40:21,039
Commissioner Hudgebeth.

1033
00:40:21,039 --> 00:40:23,440
Thank you, Chair.

1034
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:24,440
Thank you for your presentation.

1035
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,440
Kim, let's see.

1036
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,280
I'll see if I need that.

1037
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:36,050
I guess for me to focus in on the issue, it really isn't

1038
00:40:36,050 --> 00:40:40,280
who's noticed more than it is

1039
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:41,800
they say they weren't noticed.

1040
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,360
How do we then rebuff that?

1041
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:49,110
And so nothing in the guidelines that you cited mentioned

1042
00:40:49,110 --> 00:40:51,159
tracking but my experience

1043
00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:54,659
in the legal field tells me that even now bankruptcy fil

1044
00:40:54,659 --> 00:40:56,480
ings are all done online.

1045
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,269
You don't have to, your notifications are done via email or

1046
00:41:00,269 --> 00:41:01,000
online.

1047
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,000
You don't have to send actual packages anymore.

1048
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,250
So my question is the mail house that we're using, are they

1049
00:41:10,250 --> 00:41:11,840
tracking those?

1050
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:12,840
Deliverable.

1051
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:13,840
Yes.

1052
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,199
And who signed for them, who didn't sign for them.

1053
00:41:16,199 --> 00:41:19,170
And then so part B to that question is where is that

1054
00:41:19,170 --> 00:41:20,280
information?

1055
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:25,760
So if Bill Jones comes up at 100 Jones Street and says he

1056
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,079
didn't get noticed, is there a

1057
00:41:28,079 --> 00:41:32,679
way to quickly say here it is, here's the notice, where are

1058
00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:34,400
you and even if it's not

1059
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,559
in paper form electronically for us to then rebuff that and

1060
00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:38,840
say.

1061
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:39,840
It was sent.

1062
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:40,840
Yes.

1063
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,719
We have I think a couple things might be happening but we

1064
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,239
have the, it's certified mail.

1065
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,840
So we have a way and a lot of times how we find out who

1066
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,400
didn't sign for to get it is

1067
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,079
the ones that come back because we get those returned.

1068
00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:56,090
We don't always get them probably in a timely manner but we

1069
00:41:56,090 --> 00:41:57,559
get them back if they don't

1070
00:41:57,559 --> 00:41:59,719
ever come pick them up or if they were undeliverable for

1071
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,119
some reason we get those back.

1072
00:42:01,119 --> 00:42:02,519
So there is a way to track it.

1073
00:42:02,519 --> 00:42:05,900
It's just the typical certified mail process.

1074
00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:08,190
And I think it's kind of a little bit of a conundrum

1075
00:42:08,190 --> 00:42:10,000
because while I think the certified

1076
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,900
mail process allows us to have some, to be able to say oh

1077
00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:15,719
no you did, we sent it and

1078
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,780
we have some evidence of that.

1079
00:42:17,780 --> 00:42:19,460
It also prevents a little bit of a barrier.

1080
00:42:19,460 --> 00:42:22,320
So it kind of becomes a challenge to us to have the same

1081
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,000
accountability because once

1082
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,099
it goes to, when it goes to certified, when it goes to

1083
00:42:26,099 --> 00:42:27,599
regular mail we, there's not like

1084
00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:29,440
that impediment now to go to the post office.

1085
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,289
It's going to come in your mailbox but then we don't have

1086
00:42:31,289 --> 00:42:32,699
the same level of accountability.

1087
00:42:32,699 --> 00:42:34,880
So it really is kind of a call.

1088
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,119
But certainly the certified mail process and I can check to

1089
00:42:38,119 --> 00:42:39,639
see if they maintain a list

1090
00:42:39,639 --> 00:42:42,829
but I think once it goes out the way we find out that it

1091
00:42:42,829 --> 00:42:44,719
wasn't ever delivered is the

1092
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,280
typical way that certified mail, it just eventually just

1093
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:49,519
comes back to us.

1094
00:42:49,519 --> 00:42:51,769
But we could look to see if there's a way to get a sense of

1095
00:42:51,769 --> 00:42:53,079
the ones that weren't signed

1096
00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:54,079
for.

1097
00:42:54,079 --> 00:42:55,079
I don't know.

1098
00:42:55,079 --> 00:42:55,889
There's got to be some electronic tracking like there is

1099
00:42:55,889 --> 00:42:56,360
for everything else when you

1100
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:57,360
mail a package.

1101
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,809
You can get a sense of where it is, where it's going, what

1102
00:42:59,809 --> 00:43:00,719
time it arrived.

1103
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,610
So we can look and see if there's a way to look and see if

1104
00:43:03,610 --> 00:43:05,079
that was actually taken to

1105
00:43:05,079 --> 00:43:08,440
your house at 305 on the 15th and no one was there and then

1106
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:09,920
no one ever signed for it.

1107
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,820
I don't know, I don't know that level of detail that's

1108
00:43:11,820 --> 00:43:13,159
available but we don't mind looking

1109
00:43:13,159 --> 00:43:16,079
in to see if we can have that tracked.

1110
00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:20,820
Yeah, I'll, from my personal experience, I've got to go to

1111
00:43:20,820 --> 00:43:23,039
the post office this evening

1112
00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:25,980
and so I've got to send someone a notice that they've been

1113
00:43:25,980 --> 00:43:27,639
sued and then I'm going to track

1114
00:43:27,639 --> 00:43:30,590
it before and when I send my client an invoice, it has a

1115
00:43:30,590 --> 00:43:32,519
tracking number for them to track

1116
00:43:32,519 --> 00:43:35,800
it and then once I make sure it's cleared and it's received

1117
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,360
by the party or it's not

1118
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,789
signed for whatever, then I'll send them an additional

1119
00:43:39,789 --> 00:43:40,320
notice.

1120
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,530
And so I think as a mail house, and again my experience

1121
00:43:43,530 --> 00:43:45,400
with different mail houses,

1122
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,340
I think that's pretty, it's not that intrusive into their

1123
00:43:49,340 --> 00:43:51,719
practices to then, because I'll

1124
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,039
answer one question, the post office does provide all the

1125
00:43:55,039 --> 00:43:56,239
detail you want.

1126
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,079
Now, does it get lost?

1127
00:43:58,079 --> 00:44:02,550
Absolutely, I mean which amazes me that I sort of on mail

1128
00:44:02,550 --> 00:44:04,880
get, but anyway, so, but it

1129
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,039
gives you that information and it's all on the website so I

1130
00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:09,440
would be shocked if that

1131
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,940
mail house cannot provide that and so, and for me, that's

1132
00:44:12,940 --> 00:44:15,000
the only thing, the key focus,

1133
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,469
there's other questions, but that's the key focus of mine

1134
00:44:17,469 --> 00:44:18,760
to quickly, and even if it's

1135
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,780
just when it was sent for now, I personally would like to,

1136
00:44:22,780 --> 00:44:24,599
if Bill Jones comes up and

1137
00:44:24,599 --> 00:44:28,750
says it was not received to be able to have a date that it

1138
00:44:28,750 --> 00:44:30,800
was mailed and to whom it was

1139
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,239
addressed and this is the address and then we'll circle

1140
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,000
back, I'm happy to if it's

1141
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,130
someone in my area or anywhere and say hey, you know, I

1142
00:44:39,130 --> 00:44:40,840
followed back up and here's the

1143
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,590
proof that it was never picked up, but it was posted on

1144
00:44:43,590 --> 00:44:45,039
this date, I'm happy to do

1145
00:44:45,039 --> 00:44:48,739
that and understanding that can't be as instantaneous, but

1146
00:44:48,739 --> 00:44:50,960
the fact that it was mailed, I would like

1147
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,559
to have that tangibly, and so maybe that's part of the

1148
00:44:54,559 --> 00:44:56,760
packet or, and again, if it's

1149
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,019
electronically, it's coming up to the iPad, there's no

1150
00:44:59,019 --> 00:45:00,519
paper lost, it's just a way for

1151
00:45:00,519 --> 00:45:04,239
me to know when it was sent.

1152
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,079
Sure, and I mean, just like you said, it's tracked, that's

1153
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:08,320
the point of certified mail

1154
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,789
is that it's tracked, so it's probably just a matter of us

1155
00:45:10,789 --> 00:45:12,079
saying hey, how can we get

1156
00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:14,909
that, at least the mail date and whether or not it was

1157
00:45:14,909 --> 00:45:16,679
signed for at that point, that

1158
00:45:16,679 --> 00:45:18,630
would, it seems like we should be able to get that, so we

1159
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:19,800
definitely can inquire about

1160
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:20,800
that.

1161
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,590
Okay, and then my, so that's my main focus, so then I have

1162
00:45:25,590 --> 00:45:28,079
suggestions after that, so

1163
00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:33,960
one suggestion is potentially a separate tab on the website

1164
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,840
or a second, separate page,

1165
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,340
if you will, that only deals with notices by address, by,

1166
00:45:40,340 --> 00:45:42,199
you know, maybe alphabetical

1167
00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:45,110
or something like that where it's, if I'm on the website

1168
00:45:45,110 --> 00:45:46,480
and I'm, I don't know how

1169
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,190
to navigate it, but I have a specific interest or if I'm

1170
00:45:50,190 --> 00:45:52,119
out in a meeting and I want to

1171
00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:54,469
spread the word about these notices, they're readily

1172
00:45:54,469 --> 00:45:56,199
available, they have their separate

1173
00:45:56,199 --> 00:46:00,949
page versus a projects page that may, and I know that the

1174
00:46:00,949 --> 00:46:03,440
projects page is great, but

1175
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:08,500
just in case it's a thought that it comes up as much maybe

1176
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:11,840
if there's an easy way to

1177
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,699
get access to it or for me to point someone to it, because

1178
00:46:14,699 --> 00:46:16,039
I don't know that I would

1179
00:46:16,039 --> 00:46:19,389
know without clicking around on the website to find the

1180
00:46:19,389 --> 00:46:21,239
projects page and where it's

1181
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:22,239
listed, but.

1182
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,719
You mean like a list of those that were within the 200 feet

1183
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,119
and a sort of a spreadsheet saying

1184
00:46:29,119 --> 00:46:31,519
this was the buffer and here's the property that was in 200

1185
00:46:31,519 --> 00:46:32,559
feet, is that what you're

1186
00:46:32,559 --> 00:46:34,159
saying should be on the website or?

1187
00:46:34,159 --> 00:46:37,980
Yes, something like that, so for example, there's a sign

1188
00:46:37,980 --> 00:46:39,840
place at the corner of Smith

1189
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,070
and Jones and so there's just a site on the web page that

1190
00:46:44,070 --> 00:46:46,360
says sign here, if you think

1191
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,579
you're within 200 feet of this address, you know, maybe it

1192
00:46:49,579 --> 00:46:51,480
takes you to a different place,

1193
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,909
so I don't want it to be too labor intensive, I guess is my

1194
00:46:53,909 --> 00:46:55,440
point, just a quick here's all

1195
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,190
our sign placements because we have to go out and place the

1196
00:46:58,190 --> 00:46:59,639
signs or we're as a courtesy

1197
00:46:59,639 --> 00:47:03,679
replacing the signs anyway, here's all the sign locations.

1198
00:47:03,679 --> 00:47:07,519
I think that's definitely something that I think could be

1199
00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:09,360
made a little bit more clear

1200
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,360
and accessible, keep in mind that the number of the cases

1201
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,000
usually posted on the sign and

1202
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,599
that usually becomes the trackable point where they can

1203
00:47:16,599 --> 00:47:18,239
look on the current projects page

1204
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,550
and take a look and see what that's about, but I believe

1205
00:47:20,550 --> 00:47:21,880
that a number, a city number

1206
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,559
is also posted a contact number so that they can also say,

1207
00:47:25,559 --> 00:47:27,519
hey, I saw this sign, these

1208
00:47:27,519 --> 00:47:30,579
are the kinds of calls I've gotten, I've signed the sign,

1209
00:47:30,579 --> 00:47:33,039
it's Z, you know, 150530, can you

1210
00:47:33,039 --> 00:47:34,440
help me with that?

1211
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,289
And so there's a couple mechanisms if they're truly, but I

1212
00:47:38,289 --> 00:47:40,280
think that there is, I think

1213
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,130
that we would all agree that there's certain enhancements

1214
00:47:42,130 --> 00:47:43,280
that could be done to the website

1215
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,599
just to make that a little cleaner, I think we would not

1216
00:47:46,599 --> 00:47:48,519
post names of property owners

1217
00:47:48,519 --> 00:47:50,920
but it's possible we could put the list somehow, I just

1218
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:52,519
would have to see the practicality

1219
00:47:52,519 --> 00:47:53,519
of that.

1220
00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:56,420
Yeah, and not even, I think you're, again, the spirit of it

1221
00:47:56,420 --> 00:47:57,679
is to be lean and not labor

1222
00:47:57,679 --> 00:47:58,679
intensive.

1223
00:47:58,679 --> 00:48:00,869
Or the map maybe because the map will show you if it's your

1224
00:48:00,869 --> 00:48:01,960
house or not, you know.

1225
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,639
Yes, yeah, if you kind of, but I think kind of the spirit

1226
00:48:05,639 --> 00:48:07,880
of it is exactly what you said,

1227
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,639
someone driving by seeing a sign and wanting to call for

1228
00:48:10,639 --> 00:48:13,239
information, so here's sign locations,

1229
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,670
you know, just listed and if you have, if you think this is

1230
00:48:16,670 --> 00:48:18,239
near your house or you're

1231
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,210
curious about it, then call this number type thing just

1232
00:48:22,210 --> 00:48:24,559
because the sign is so difficult

1233
00:48:24,559 --> 00:48:29,079
to read, it's just a thought.

1234
00:48:29,079 --> 00:48:33,050
And then if we could, in your presentation, did you have an

1235
00:48:33,050 --> 00:48:34,920
example of what we send out

1236
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:35,920
by chance?

1237
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:40,280
I did actually.

1238
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,840
I'm curious if...

1239
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,519
There's this one, it's, I think it's a 200 foot

1240
00:48:48,519 --> 00:48:51,280
notification buffer and then the response

1241
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,159
sheet that accompanies that.

1242
00:48:53,159 --> 00:48:58,920
Okay, and I'm curious and I guess there's not because they

1243
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,760
have to reply back but maybe

1244
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,000
that too.

1245
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,969
Is there any, have we looked at a postcard to send versus

1246
00:49:06,969 --> 00:49:08,199
an envelope?

1247
00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:12,119
Because I'm not as concerned about people throwing it away

1248
00:49:12,119 --> 00:49:14,480
but at the same time, costwise,

1249
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:15,960
it's a little cheaper just to put it and...

1250
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:17,400
Just to put it in the envelope.

1251
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,650
Right, well just to put it on a postcard and mail it and

1252
00:49:20,650 --> 00:49:22,840
then you eliminate that, it says

1253
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,170
resident on it and they, they may at all, it all may get

1254
00:49:26,170 --> 00:49:28,039
recycled anyway but we saved

1255
00:49:28,039 --> 00:49:30,539
the envelope and you can't say you didn't see what was in

1256
00:49:30,539 --> 00:49:31,920
it because it's printed on

1257
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:32,920
it.

1258
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:34,400
What you threw away is all the information.

1259
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,119
I think some cities do have postcards.

1260
00:49:36,119 --> 00:49:38,690
I think for us, I think the challenge always is and it's

1261
00:49:38,690 --> 00:49:40,280
kind of a balancing of things.

1262
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,309
It's balancing of information provision and a balancing

1263
00:49:43,309 --> 00:49:45,320
just like with the certified mail.

1264
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,989
We're trying to balance the, kind of like making sure that

1265
00:49:48,989 --> 00:49:50,559
we have evidence that we

1266
00:49:50,559 --> 00:49:52,960
did mail it just to have that at our hand but we're also

1267
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:54,679
trying to balance convenience.

1268
00:49:54,679 --> 00:49:57,239
I think if you look at what the kind of information, I mean

1269
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:58,960
just looking at the website, there

1270
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,090
is two full pages of information so they can fully

1271
00:50:02,090 --> 00:50:04,760
understand what's being considered and

1272
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,519
then there's the notification letter so I think it's

1273
00:50:07,519 --> 00:50:08,280
possible.

1274
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,679
I'm trying to think if I've, where I've seen, most of the

1275
00:50:10,679 --> 00:50:12,039
times I have seen letters but

1276
00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:14,920
I've heard rumor of postcards but I think usually when

1277
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,679
there's a postcard, it's in the

1278
00:50:16,679 --> 00:50:19,730
envelope with the larger explained to them so it's kind of

1279
00:50:19,730 --> 00:50:21,760
a balance between enough information

1280
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,119
that they understand so maybe the answer is a little bit of

1281
00:50:25,119 --> 00:50:25,639
both.

1282
00:50:25,639 --> 00:50:28,480
I think if you send a postcard it's going to be hard to get

1283
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:29,840
it all on there but maybe

1284
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:30,840
not.

1285
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,219
I don't know if we can see how to look at that but I think

1286
00:50:33,219 --> 00:50:34,679
postcards within an envelope

1287
00:50:34,679 --> 00:50:37,960
is one easy way to kind of get it thrown back to us.

1288
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,900
Yeah I would be very tempted to see, even if it's a larger,

1289
00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:43,719
maybe it's a custom sized

1290
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:44,719
postcard.

1291
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:46,480
Maybe that would be the answer, a bigger postcard.

1292
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,409
But then maybe just for the 500 feet courtesy notice, one

1293
00:50:50,409 --> 00:50:52,360
you save the, I mean I think the

1294
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,079
postage is cheaper, you save it on the envelope and then

1295
00:50:56,079 --> 00:50:58,159
also you can't say you didn't see

1296
00:50:58,159 --> 00:50:59,159
it because.

1297
00:50:59,159 --> 00:51:00,440
Yeah I guess that's what I'm thinking.

1298
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,519
I guess when I first thought postcard I thought postcard.

1299
00:51:03,519 --> 00:51:05,139
But you're right, if it was on the bigger things that you

1300
00:51:05,139 --> 00:51:06,079
typically get in the mail,

1301
00:51:06,079 --> 00:51:08,750
you could probably get all the information on that and then

1302
00:51:08,750 --> 00:51:09,920
have it on both sides.

1303
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,369
So that might be something that I think that probably would

1304
00:51:13,369 --> 00:51:14,880
be a good suggestion.

1305
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,789
Yeah I mean because, and I'll move on to my last deal,

1306
00:51:17,789 --> 00:51:19,719
because none of the political ads

1307
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:20,719
I didn't have to open.

1308
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:21,719
They were all right.

1309
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:22,719
Yeah there is something to be said.

1310
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:23,719
That is a really good argument.

1311
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:24,719
Yeah there it is.

1312
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:25,719
You can't throw it away.

1313
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:26,340
And sometimes if they see it from the city they may think,

1314
00:51:26,340 --> 00:51:26,719
oh I think for a second I

1315
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:31,079
think from the city.

1316
00:51:31,079 --> 00:51:33,760
I hate recycling faces but it's okay.

1317
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:40,670
So then there's the last thing is I think it's important

1318
00:51:40,670 --> 00:51:43,639
for us as a body to kind of

1319
00:51:43,639 --> 00:51:49,199
maybe spend some time understanding what is important.

1320
00:51:49,199 --> 00:51:54,239
Because for example, Ms. Sullivan is so kind of right in

1321
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,840
and she has and she points out

1322
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:01,360
Buc-E's, but Buc-E's isn't important to everyone.

1323
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,199
I mean it's not a red flag to everyone.

1324
00:52:03,199 --> 00:52:07,949
So when you're talking about notice how far for specific

1325
00:52:07,949 --> 00:52:10,559
issues, for specific building

1326
00:52:10,559 --> 00:52:14,280
types, that's not unified.

1327
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,250
So when we're talking about putting a process in place or

1328
00:52:17,250 --> 00:52:18,760
amending a process that has a

1329
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:24,449
serve all projects, I think it's a little difficult to then

1330
00:52:24,449 --> 00:52:27,159
start earmarking specific

1331
00:52:27,159 --> 00:52:30,800
projects and if we're going to, what does that mean?

1332
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,360
What is that threshold to say, okay this project is unique

1333
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,360
because it meets these three or

1334
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:38,079
four qualifications?

1335
00:52:38,079 --> 00:52:41,369
And so that's just kind of a general question for down the

1336
00:52:41,369 --> 00:52:41,880
road.

1337
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,969
If we were going to look at specific projects and adjusting

1338
00:52:45,969 --> 00:52:48,599
the process for and a particular

1339
00:52:48,599 --> 00:52:53,550
item, I would want to spend some time talking about what

1340
00:52:53,550 --> 00:52:55,440
qualifies for that.

1341
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:56,440
For larger buffers.

1342
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:57,440
Exactly.

1343
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:58,440
Exactly.

1344
00:52:58,440 --> 00:52:59,440
But thank you very much.

1345
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:00,440
Great presentation.

1346
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:01,440
You're welcome.

1347
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:02,440
I've got a full board.

1348
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,960
I'm just going to make kind of a couple observations before

1349
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,559
I recognize our next request to speak.

1350
00:53:08,559 --> 00:53:11,280
We've got one other item to hear in our work session.

1351
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:15,199
I'm told it's a 10 to 15 minute presentation.

1352
00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:17,400
And then we cannot eat in this room.

1353
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,199
So we'll have to go downstairs to eat.

1354
00:53:21,199 --> 00:53:24,010
So in looking at the time, we can always continue this item

1355
00:53:24,010 --> 00:53:25,519
if we need to bring it back for

1356
00:53:25,519 --> 00:53:26,519
another work session.

1357
00:53:26,519 --> 00:53:30,099
I'm going to say we'll go about another 10 minutes on this

1358
00:53:30,099 --> 00:53:30,679
topic.

1359
00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:33,500
If we're not able to get through, we're going to table it

1360
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:34,559
and bring it back.

1361
00:53:34,559 --> 00:53:37,179
We'll take a break and go get some food and then come back

1362
00:53:37,179 --> 00:53:38,920
and hear our last presentation.

1363
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:44,679
And so next request to speak, Commissioner Taylor.

1364
00:53:44,679 --> 00:53:45,900
Thank you, Chair.

1365
00:53:45,900 --> 00:53:49,480
So I believe this is the third major presentation I've seen

1366
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,679
on notification in five years I've

1367
00:53:51,679 --> 00:53:53,960
been on this commission.

1368
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:54,960
Because it's a major issue.

1369
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,780
It comes up in a lot of public hearings.

1370
00:53:57,780 --> 00:53:59,280
So it's an important issue.

1371
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,150
And I'd just like to run through what I think are the most

1372
00:54:02,150 --> 00:54:03,840
important and potentially the

1373
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:05,280
best options.

1374
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,760
The multifamily has been an intractable issue.

1375
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,320
Things go in next to an apartment complex.

1376
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,340
There are 100 units.

1377
00:54:12,340 --> 00:54:15,659
And one notice gets sent to the office and one notice gets

1378
00:54:15,659 --> 00:54:17,840
sent to the owner in California.

1379
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,670
And so we've had complaints about that in the past perenn

1380
00:54:20,670 --> 00:54:21,239
ially.

1381
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,320
And there's not an easy solution.

1382
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,449
I'd love to keep looking at creative ideas, but I realize

1383
00:54:26,449 --> 00:54:28,039
that that's also a very hard

1384
00:54:28,039 --> 00:54:29,960
problem to solve.

1385
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:35,400
I do agree that certified mail actually becomes a barrier.

1386
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,550
If it just had tracking to know it was delivered, that

1387
00:54:38,550 --> 00:54:40,019
would be reasonable.

1388
00:54:40,019 --> 00:54:43,480
Or even I think most first class mail, it's good enough.

1389
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,849
But I think that the barrier of you get a sticky note on

1390
00:54:46,849 --> 00:54:48,719
your door, which may or may

1391
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:50,159
not be there when you get home.

1392
00:54:50,159 --> 00:54:54,280
You may or may not use the front door, so forth and so on.

1393
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,800
And then you have to take time, usually for me on a

1394
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:58,760
Saturday morning, to go to the post

1395
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,840
office and pick up the letter.

1396
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:06,079
It's just a lot harder than just first class mail.

1397
00:55:06,079 --> 00:55:08,880
The large postcard idea I think is also really good.

1398
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,050
At lower cost, and you can have all the information right

1399
00:55:12,050 --> 00:55:12,639
there.

1400
00:55:12,639 --> 00:55:15,500
You don't have to -- a lot of people don't want to open

1401
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:16,360
resident.

1402
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,840
They assume it's junk mail.

1403
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,230
But if it has -- there's a rezoning case at this address,

1404
00:55:22,230 --> 00:55:24,360
they either care or don't, and

1405
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,960
they'll have the information right there.

1406
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,639
I think that more can be done through the website.

1407
00:55:30,639 --> 00:55:33,639
I know Southlake has changed the website now, but they used

1408
00:55:33,639 --> 00:55:35,019
to feature on the home page

1409
00:55:35,019 --> 00:55:41,039
of Southlake every single public hearing they had scheduled

1410
00:55:41,039 --> 00:55:41,480
.

1411
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,679
The current projects page is really great.

1412
00:55:43,679 --> 00:55:46,480
I was just browsing through it.

1413
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,829
But it is like five clicks deep, and I didn't know it

1414
00:55:48,829 --> 00:55:50,460
existed until you mentioned it.

1415
00:55:50,460 --> 00:55:55,590
So if there was a way to make the current projects page

1416
00:55:55,590 --> 00:55:59,920
more visible to city residents,

1417
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:02,039
this stuff gets shared on Facebook now.

1418
00:56:02,039 --> 00:56:04,550
More people see public hearings on Facebook and Nextdoor

1419
00:56:04,550 --> 00:56:06,039
than they do in the Net and Record

1420
00:56:06,039 --> 00:56:07,239
Chronicle.

1421
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:11,210
So if there was an easy way for somebody to repost it,

1422
00:56:11,210 --> 00:56:13,820
because normally what you see is

1423
00:56:13,820 --> 00:56:18,559
photos of the letter instead of, you know, a nice little

1424
00:56:18,559 --> 00:56:20,119
informational web page that

1425
00:56:20,119 --> 00:56:23,400
we've already built on the current projects site.

1426
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:28,139
So if there's a way to increase the visibility of the web

1427
00:56:28,139 --> 00:56:31,599
aspect, I think that would be beneficial,

1428
00:56:31,599 --> 00:56:34,329
and it would end up letting citizens do your work for you

1429
00:56:34,329 --> 00:56:35,920
because they'll share it among

1430
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,280
their friends, they'll email it or put it on social media

1431
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:40,280
and so forth.

1432
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,989
And you won't have so many people saying they hadn't heard

1433
00:56:43,989 --> 00:56:45,599
about it or they had to hear

1434
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:49,570
it from a neighbor who knocked on their door or something

1435
00:56:49,570 --> 00:56:50,679
like that.

1436
00:56:50,679 --> 00:56:51,679
Thank you.

1437
00:56:51,679 --> 00:56:52,679
Thank you.

1438
00:56:52,679 --> 00:56:53,679
Commissioner Dudowitz.

1439
00:56:53,679 --> 00:56:56,679
A lot of good comments.

1440
00:56:56,679 --> 00:56:59,800
Ticking them off also.

1441
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,059
I have been a participant of a number of zoning requests

1442
00:57:03,059 --> 00:57:04,039
and changes.

1443
00:57:04,039 --> 00:57:07,179
I can tell you a certified mail comes, but I also get a

1444
00:57:07,179 --> 00:57:09,360
letter in the mail and duplicate.

1445
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,809
What I would suggest is in that letter that gets mailed to

1446
00:57:13,809 --> 00:57:15,960
me personally or to say the

1447
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:17,949
certified letter has been mailed and this is a duplicate,

1448
00:57:17,949 --> 00:57:18,920
therefore I don't have to

1449
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:19,920
go down to the post office.

1450
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:22,039
I already know I have gotten notice.

1451
00:57:22,039 --> 00:57:25,710
Another question is we all know newspapers are becoming a

1452
00:57:25,710 --> 00:57:27,000
dying dinosaur.

1453
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,460
And I head out here to social media as the way to put this

1454
00:57:30,460 --> 00:57:31,440
out there.

1455
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,670
I think we could do a better job of that and especially on

1456
00:57:34,670 --> 00:57:36,360
the city's web page to where

1457
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:37,360
it is.

1458
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,079
Somebody has mentioned already a specific web or touch or

1459
00:57:40,079 --> 00:57:41,519
some notification there.

1460
00:57:41,519 --> 00:57:44,639
I think that's a great, great idea.

1461
00:57:44,639 --> 00:57:47,880
Also the city does send out yearly a, I call it the state

1462
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:48,840
of the city.

1463
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,889
We got one in the mail, nice little brochure, talks about

1464
00:57:51,889 --> 00:57:53,559
all the accolades the city has

1465
00:57:53,559 --> 00:57:54,559
done.

1466
00:57:54,559 --> 00:57:56,119
There could be a flyer put in there.

1467
00:57:56,119 --> 00:57:58,570
There could be another section that says here's how you

1468
00:57:58,570 --> 00:58:00,119
find out about what's going on in

1469
00:58:00,119 --> 00:58:04,530
your city with regards to meetings and/or changes and here

1470
00:58:04,530 --> 00:58:06,079
's what you can do.

1471
00:58:06,079 --> 00:58:10,000
Similar to that other piece that you had there.

1472
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,719
On the apartment side, I was going through that too.

1473
00:58:13,719 --> 00:58:16,429
The issue there is just signs and if you could on that

1474
00:58:16,429 --> 00:58:18,320
property put the signs that their

1475
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:21,559
entrances are in the parking lots, multiple signs.

1476
00:58:21,559 --> 00:58:23,889
Now is that the responsibility of the property owner or the

1477
00:58:23,889 --> 00:58:24,320
city?

1478
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:25,320
I don't know.

1479
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,199
I don't think that's the responsibility that could be taken

1480
00:58:28,199 --> 00:58:29,599
up as we go forward here.

1481
00:58:29,599 --> 00:58:32,099
Now in the newspaper, that's in the back section back there

1482
00:58:32,099 --> 00:58:33,719
and the classified and it says

1483
00:58:33,719 --> 00:58:34,719
notice.

1484
00:58:34,719 --> 00:58:36,840
It wouldn't hurt that once in a while that you post

1485
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:38,440
someplace else in a newspaper that

1486
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,380
you do that so that people say okay, that's another way of

1487
00:58:41,380 --> 00:58:42,440
communicating.

1488
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,760
So these are just again suggestions.

1489
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,260
But I think notification is always going to be an issue and

1490
00:58:51,260 --> 00:58:52,880
the only way to solve it is

1491
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,849
to note more of the, I call it the social media Facebook

1492
00:58:55,849 --> 00:58:57,320
and that kind of stuff.

1493
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:58,320
Agreed.

1494
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,980
I can't remember any time ever hearing from a respondent or

1495
00:59:01,980 --> 00:59:02,800
citizen.

1496
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,440
I read this in the newspaper.

1497
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:05,559
I don't think it is the most.

1498
00:59:05,559 --> 00:59:09,610
I think that it's just maybe left over from I think the way

1499
00:59:09,610 --> 00:59:11,880
we used to mostly communicate

1500
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:15,579
and the local government code has updated requiring

1501
00:59:15,579 --> 00:59:18,079
allowing for website publication

1502
00:59:18,079 --> 00:59:20,800
but still has that published notice requirement.

1503
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,949
I think until there's a universal sort of way that they'll

1504
00:59:23,949 --> 00:59:25,519
probably stay with that.

1505
00:59:25,519 --> 00:59:28,519
But I agree that social media is probably the most

1506
00:59:28,519 --> 00:59:29,679
effective way.

1507
00:59:29,679 --> 00:59:32,119
It's something we can add to it easily and test it.

1508
00:59:32,119 --> 00:59:35,869
As far as the 750 foot, which is not a bad idea, but I

1509
00:59:35,869 --> 00:59:37,920
think it could be tested in the

1510
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:41,500
sense of how many respondents do we get from the 500 and

1511
00:59:41,500 --> 00:59:42,599
the 200?

1512
00:59:42,599 --> 00:59:46,309
I don't think the 500 have a way of even responding but it

1513
00:59:46,309 --> 00:59:48,199
would be a mechanism by putting it

1514
00:59:48,199 --> 00:59:50,800
in there to say hey check this off and send it back in with

1515
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:52,079
hey you're going to come or

1516
00:59:52,079 --> 00:59:54,909
not to come and then take it out and test it and see how

1517
00:59:54,909 --> 00:59:56,559
many more responses you get.

1518
00:59:56,559 --> 00:59:59,619
If you don't get any responses people aren't interested in

1519
00:59:59,619 --> 01:00:00,519
that far out.

1520
01:00:00,519 --> 01:00:01,519
Just don't do it.

1521
01:00:01,519 --> 01:00:04,760
We could also look at folks who spoke at public hearings

1522
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:06,519
and we can take a look at, you know,

1523
01:00:06,519 --> 01:00:09,400
but they do typically give us their addresses and we can

1524
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:10,360
sort of gauge.

1525
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,389
That might be a quick way to sort of research who's getting

1526
01:00:13,389 --> 01:00:14,960
the notice and who cares.

1527
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:20,159
That's another thing in my little notes here.

1528
01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:22,630
Notification of neighborhood meetings and just meetings in

1529
01:00:22,630 --> 01:00:24,000
general come the same way,

1530
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,679
certified mail and letters.

1531
01:00:26,679 --> 01:00:33,079
Are those also posted in the newspaper and on the website?

1532
01:00:33,079 --> 01:00:35,170
The neighborhood meetings I do not believe are posted on

1533
01:00:35,170 --> 01:00:35,719
the website.

1534
01:00:35,719 --> 01:00:40,469
We require that they send that out to 500 residents within

1535
01:00:40,469 --> 01:00:42,679
500 feet but since it is,

1536
01:00:42,679 --> 01:00:45,119
no we don't ask for that extra step.

1537
01:00:45,119 --> 01:00:48,400
Is that done by the city and/or the developer?

1538
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,619
We provide the list and the applicant is the one who does

1539
01:00:51,619 --> 01:00:53,159
the mailing and usually they

1540
01:00:53,159 --> 01:00:57,719
provide us a courtesy copy of the mailed notice.

1541
01:00:57,719 --> 01:00:59,849
They provide, okay here's the notice we sent out and here's

1542
01:00:59,849 --> 01:01:00,760
the list of people.

1543
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,909
We give them the list and then usually we ask for, they

1544
01:01:03,909 --> 01:01:05,559
provide us a copy of what the

1545
01:01:05,559 --> 01:01:06,559
flyer looked like.

1546
01:01:06,559 --> 01:01:07,559
Okay.

1547
01:01:07,559 --> 01:01:08,559
Just in so we have some of those.

1548
01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:11,860
It's not required but and we attend the meetings as I

1549
01:01:11,860 --> 01:01:14,360
stated earlier, we the case manager and

1550
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,079
also myself attend those meetings as well.

1551
01:01:16,079 --> 01:01:19,050
And in the presentations that we get, do we, is it part of

1552
01:01:19,050 --> 01:01:21,079
the presentation that the developer

1553
01:01:21,079 --> 01:01:26,880
did not have a neighborhood meeting or he did?

1554
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:27,880
We usually know your reports.

1555
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:29,969
I don't know if it's always in the presentation but it's

1556
01:01:29,969 --> 01:01:31,360
usually in the reports the developer

1557
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:35,320
had a meeting, neighborhood meeting on such and such date.

1558
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,750
I think that if they did not have a meeting that would also

1559
01:01:38,750 --> 01:01:40,480
be in the report as well.

1560
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:41,480
Okay.

1561
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:42,480
Thank you.

1562
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:43,480
Commissioner Rossell.

1563
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:48,320
I'll keep it short because I know we're on a time crunch.

1564
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,679
I appreciate your presentation and all the commissioner's

1565
01:01:51,679 --> 01:01:52,679
input to this.

1566
01:01:52,679 --> 01:01:55,280
I would definitely echo the social media.

1567
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,159
Does Didn't Plan In Zoning have a page on Facebook?

1568
01:01:58,159 --> 01:01:59,760
I do not believe you do.

1569
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,280
I think the closest thing you have is our development

1570
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:02,920
website.

1571
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:04,829
It seems like low hanging fruit to make it Didn't Plan In Z

1572
01:02:04,829 --> 01:02:05,400
oning page.

1573
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,199
People like it and they can share whatever gets posted.

1574
01:02:08,199 --> 01:02:10,760
That's as far as I know free.

1575
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,599
A couple thoughts I had on some of the suggestions listed

1576
01:02:14,599 --> 01:02:15,320
today.

1577
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:19,500
Just for clarification, the 500 foot notice is being dupl

1578
01:02:19,500 --> 01:02:22,320
icated to the 200 foot, correct?

1579
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:23,320
Yes.

1580
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:24,320
It goes to the resident.

1581
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:26,650
The 500 foot is just the folks who live in the house and

1582
01:02:26,650 --> 01:02:28,239
the 200 foot is to satisfy local

1583
01:02:28,239 --> 01:02:30,360
government code to the property owner.

1584
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:32,559
And the 500 foot is not a certified?

1585
01:02:32,559 --> 01:02:33,559
It is not.

1586
01:02:33,559 --> 01:02:36,010
So when we talk about certified being a barrier, that dupl

1587
01:02:36,010 --> 01:02:37,599
icated letter that they potentially

1588
01:02:37,599 --> 01:02:39,000
get wouldn't be certified.

1589
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:40,000
It wouldn't be.

1590
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:41,000
So they should be getting it.

1591
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:42,000
They wouldn't have the response form.

1592
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,659
But they certainly would be notified of the -- and I think

1593
01:02:44,659 --> 01:02:45,599
it probably is a good idea

1594
01:02:45,599 --> 01:02:48,820
to put Commissioner Dudowitz's comment about saying if you

1595
01:02:48,820 --> 01:02:51,199
are within 200 feet, the 200

1596
01:02:51,199 --> 01:02:55,920
feet, you have also been sent a certified list.

1597
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:58,619
I don't think you'd have to -- I think you could just put

1598
01:02:58,619 --> 01:03:00,440
it on every single 500 foot

1599
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,090
notification because they would put both buffers and say if

1600
01:03:03,090 --> 01:03:04,880
you also are within the 200 feet

1601
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,119
buffer, you have also been sent a certified note.

1602
01:03:07,119 --> 01:03:08,119
Sure.

1603
01:03:08,119 --> 01:03:09,119
Because they would get that one without the --

1604
01:03:09,119 --> 01:03:10,719
That way they know and they don't have to go pick it up.

1605
01:03:10,719 --> 01:03:12,760
But they do have that little response sheet.

1606
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,570
But I know at least on one occasion, a case that I was

1607
01:03:15,570 --> 01:03:17,880
presented, that somebody just showed

1608
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:21,340
up and they didn't have a response, but they said I'm in

1609
01:03:21,340 --> 01:03:22,440
opposition.

1610
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,159
And then when that went to counsel, it was noted that there

1611
01:03:25,159 --> 01:03:27,039
was a property owner in opposition.

1612
01:03:27,039 --> 01:03:29,949
So it's not -- they don't have to submit the form if they

1613
01:03:29,949 --> 01:03:31,480
are at a public meeting and say

1614
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,280
we're in opposition, then it's counted as opposition if

1615
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:34,639
they're within the 200 feet.

1616
01:03:34,639 --> 01:03:35,639
Sure.

1617
01:03:35,639 --> 01:03:38,760
And then the last thing I have is in the discussion between

1618
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:40,880
envelope and postcard, strangely enough,

1619
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:42,519
I've read studies about this.

1620
01:03:42,519 --> 01:03:46,030
And letters that are in an envelope, the response rate for

1621
01:03:46,030 --> 01:03:48,360
those are exponentially higher than

1622
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:49,360
postcards.

1623
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:50,559
Postcards are just easy to throw away.

1624
01:03:50,559 --> 01:03:53,090
And there's a personal buy-in when someone actually opens a

1625
01:03:53,090 --> 01:03:53,599
letter.

1626
01:03:53,599 --> 01:03:56,980
So the response to letters is if we're looking at a poor

1627
01:03:56,980 --> 01:03:59,639
response rate, I think using postcards

1628
01:03:59,639 --> 01:04:00,639
is actually less than that.

1629
01:04:00,639 --> 01:04:02,730
I don't know about you, but you can think through how many

1630
01:04:02,730 --> 01:04:03,760
postcards just throw away

1631
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,920
when, at any rate, the studies show that letters have a

1632
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:08,480
higher response rate.

1633
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:10,730
So I wouldn't be an advocate for postcards considering the

1634
01:04:10,730 --> 01:04:11,800
studies have already been

1635
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:12,800
out there.

1636
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:13,800
That's all I got.

1637
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:18,480
I have one final comment and we'll get on.

1638
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:20,880
On the certified mail, I think there's a process you can

1639
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:22,760
use at the post office called a certificate

1640
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:23,760
of mailing.

1641
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:25,599
And it's the same type of process.

1642
01:04:25,599 --> 01:04:28,440
It's a certification that the letter's been mailed, but it

1643
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:29,860
doesn't require a response

1644
01:04:29,860 --> 01:04:33,000
from the person that the letter is sent to.

1645
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,000
Just certifies it was physically mailed.

1646
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,119
Yeah, you just get a stamp and it says, "Yep, send them a

1647
01:04:36,119 --> 01:04:36,639
letter."

1648
01:04:36,639 --> 01:04:39,340
So that's maybe another option that-- Maybe that's the

1649
01:04:39,340 --> 01:04:40,320
compromise, yeah.

1650
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,800
So anyway, thank you for a great presentation.

1651
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,179
I know we've had a lot of questions and I think the city

1652
01:04:47,179 --> 01:04:47,840
knows--

1653
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:48,949
Just to get some clarification, I'm sorry, just to get some

1654
01:04:48,949 --> 01:04:49,400
clarification.

1655
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,650
Would the commission like us to further go forward with the

1656
01:04:52,650 --> 01:04:54,039
idea of moving away from

1657
01:04:54,039 --> 01:04:55,039
certified?

1658
01:04:55,039 --> 01:04:57,329
It would require an ordinance change and getting-- Is the

1659
01:04:57,329 --> 01:04:58,760
general feeling of the commission that

1660
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:02,760
that is a barrier, I guess is what I'm asking.

1661
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:03,760
Okay.

1662
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:04,760
I'm indifferent, so.

1663
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:05,760
Yeah, I think it's made some tracking mechanism certified.

1664
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:06,760
It doesn't have to be.

1665
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:18,079
I think that is-- As long as we have a tracking mechanism

1666
01:05:18,079 --> 01:05:19,239
so that answers the question when

1667
01:05:19,239 --> 01:05:22,440
somebody-- I didn't get notice, well, it was mailed.

1668
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,599
But in a certified situation, you do have a signature.

1669
01:05:24,599 --> 01:05:28,440
Well, he may not have gotten it, but his wife got it or his

1670
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,639
other partner got it or somebody

1671
01:05:30,639 --> 01:05:32,239
got it because there is a signature.

1672
01:05:32,239 --> 01:05:36,039
We would have that with the option provided by--

1673
01:05:36,039 --> 01:05:37,039
Yeah.

1674
01:05:37,039 --> 01:05:41,829
So that's something to think about in going forward without

1675
01:05:41,829 --> 01:05:44,599
the certified certification.

1676
01:05:44,599 --> 01:05:45,599
Thank you.

1677
01:05:45,599 --> 01:05:46,599
Great presentation.

1678
01:05:46,599 --> 01:05:50,300
I guess the pleasure of the commission, you guys want to

1679
01:05:50,300 --> 01:05:52,360
break and try to eat or you want

1680
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:54,860
to go ahead on and let Beverly make her next presentation

1681
01:05:54,860 --> 01:05:56,119
and then we'll eat and if we

1682
01:05:56,119 --> 01:05:58,920
just-- I think we have a very short agenda this evening.

1683
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,039
If we are just going to get a light start on our meeting,

1684
01:06:02,039 --> 01:06:03,639
would you rather prefer to

1685
01:06:03,639 --> 01:06:04,639
do that?

1686
01:06:04,639 --> 01:06:06,639
Her presentation is three minutes.

1687
01:06:06,639 --> 01:06:11,389
As much time as she needs, I was told 10 to 15 kind of is

1688
01:06:11,389 --> 01:06:12,119
just a--

1689
01:06:12,119 --> 01:06:13,119
There you go.

1690
01:06:13,119 --> 01:06:16,829
If you don't mind, please proceed on to our next workshop

1691
01:06:16,829 --> 01:06:19,400
session item in your next presentation.

1692
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:20,400
Thank you.

1693
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:21,400
You're welcome.

1694
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:25,119
This is in response to Commissioner Bruegel's request for

1695
01:06:25,119 --> 01:06:27,320
information about conservation

1696
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:28,320
development.

1697
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:31,349
And so staff kind of-- we've been kind of want to present

1698
01:06:31,349 --> 01:06:32,760
this and I think that was

1699
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:34,769
a-- we appreciate that invitation to present this

1700
01:06:34,769 --> 01:06:35,519
information.

1701
01:06:35,519 --> 01:06:37,119
So I'll just kind of get right into that presentation.

1702
01:06:37,119 --> 01:06:40,960
I thought I would start with this quote.

1703
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,440
I did some research because there's a lot of information

1704
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:44,840
out there and a lot of websites

1705
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:47,119
and a lot of pros and cons.

1706
01:06:47,119 --> 01:06:49,559
But I like this and there's some typos in here but it's a

1707
01:06:49,559 --> 01:06:50,400
direct quote.

1708
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:52,550
Most of the development in the United States, 90% or

1709
01:06:52,550 --> 01:06:53,960
something like that and this is from

1710
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:57,570
the Milwaukee mayor, John Norquist, it was in 2003, is

1711
01:06:57,570 --> 01:06:59,599
about new development on the edge.

1712
01:06:59,599 --> 01:07:01,789
If we ignore that and just concentrate on infill, the edge

1713
01:07:01,789 --> 01:07:03,119
city will never repair itself.

1714
01:07:03,119 --> 01:07:05,210
It'd be a mistake for people who care about cities and

1715
01:07:05,210 --> 01:07:06,599
urban design to assume that green

1716
01:07:06,599 --> 01:07:09,760
field development is bad because it is going to happen.

1717
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,269
And if it doesn't improve it, it will overwhelm whatever

1718
01:07:12,269 --> 01:07:13,920
infill we are doing in the cities.

1719
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:15,639
And kind of what I got from that and why I started with

1720
01:07:15,639 --> 01:07:16,800
that because it talks about edge

1721
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:20,280
development which is also what our comprehensive plan talks

1722
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:22,079
about is edge development.

1723
01:07:22,079 --> 01:07:24,940
And so I like this because it essentially says is that edge

1724
01:07:24,940 --> 01:07:26,280
development's coming.

1725
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,659
We have constant pressure for residential subdivisions on

1726
01:07:29,659 --> 01:07:30,400
the edge.

1727
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:33,530
Every city that I have worked in has a great deal of

1728
01:07:33,530 --> 01:07:36,460
pressure about new higher density subdivisions

1729
01:07:36,460 --> 01:07:37,599
occurring on the edge of town.

1730
01:07:37,599 --> 01:07:40,730
This is a trend I've asked two or three developers, most

1731
01:07:40,730 --> 01:07:43,119
recently a local developer, why?

1732
01:07:43,119 --> 01:07:44,880
Why are we seeing density increases?

1733
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,880
The state development which is a zoning category that every

1734
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:49,480
city I've worked in for the past

1735
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,719
10 years has and I've yet to see any new estate development

1736
01:07:52,719 --> 01:07:52,960
.

1737
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:55,730
It seems to be this constant pressure for higher density

1738
01:07:55,730 --> 01:07:57,400
development and it is occurring

1739
01:07:57,400 --> 01:07:59,989
in green fields typically because that's where it makes the

1740
01:07:59,989 --> 01:08:00,679
most sense.

1741
01:08:00,679 --> 01:08:02,440
So this is where it's going.

1742
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:04,760
This is where we see it going on a regular basis and most

1743
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:06,000
of the subdivisions we're presenting

1744
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:08,280
to you are typically edge developments.

1745
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,539
And so I think this is a really appropriate time to take a

1746
01:08:11,539 --> 01:08:13,119
look at how we can address

1747
01:08:13,119 --> 01:08:15,000
that as we move forward and what are some guiding

1748
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:16,600
principles that we want to take forward

1749
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:22,720
based on our comprehensive plan.

1750
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,399
This is directly from the Denton Plan 2030.

1751
01:08:25,399 --> 01:08:26,560
It's a direct quote from that.

1752
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:29,680
It says as much of the edge of Denton is characterized as

1753
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:31,840
rural land that possesses a character of

1754
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:35,479
Denton's past and natural environment that is cherished.

1755
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:37,289
Conservation development is recommended as the primary

1756
01:08:37,289 --> 01:08:38,399
means for managing the interface

1757
01:08:38,399 --> 01:08:42,090
of the edge and they also talk about the edge of our

1758
01:08:42,090 --> 01:08:43,220
community.

1759
01:08:43,220 --> 01:08:45,199
Conservation development is an approach to the design of

1760
01:08:45,199 --> 01:08:46,359
rural residential subdivision

1761
01:08:46,359 --> 01:08:50,329
which is highly suited to agricultural fringe areas and

1762
01:08:50,329 --> 01:08:52,840
also I think to add to that natural

1763
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:56,500
resource protection where the retention of rural character

1764
01:08:56,500 --> 01:08:58,199
in open space is desired.

1765
01:08:58,199 --> 01:09:00,560
So this just is an image and we'll talk a little bit about

1766
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:01,920
conservation development.

1767
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:05,119
And I'll try and talk about some of the pros and cons and

1768
01:09:05,119 --> 01:09:07,039
challenges with it as well.

1769
01:09:07,039 --> 01:09:09,979
Essentially a concept is applied by permitting smaller cl

1770
01:09:09,979 --> 01:09:12,079
ustered lots in return for preservation

1771
01:09:12,079 --> 01:09:14,800
of generous open space, amounts of open space.

1772
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:18,260
It involves density bonuses, typically lot size reductions

1773
01:09:18,260 --> 01:09:20,039
and then ultimately open space

1774
01:09:20,039 --> 01:09:22,439
preservation.

1775
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:27,180
And this is what we would typically see as a typical subdiv

1776
01:09:27,180 --> 01:09:27,859
ision.

1777
01:09:27,859 --> 01:09:30,210
And this is sort of what that subdivision might look like

1778
01:09:30,210 --> 01:09:31,600
if we applied some conservation

1779
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:36,600
development principles to it.

1780
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:40,399
And then just another illustration of a raw tract of land

1781
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:42,520
and how a typical subdivision

1782
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:44,869
could -- this looks fairly large estate development could

1783
01:09:44,869 --> 01:09:46,880
potentially be laid out and then a conservation

1784
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:51,619
development and how that might look like -- how that might

1785
01:09:51,619 --> 01:09:54,359
look on the same tract of land.

1786
01:09:54,359 --> 01:09:56,850
There's been I think a lot of discussion about cluster

1787
01:09:56,850 --> 01:09:59,300
development, conservation development.

1788
01:09:59,300 --> 01:10:02,989
Cluster literature sometimes uses them interchangeably, but

1789
01:10:02,989 --> 01:10:05,239
it seems like the more thoughtful and

1790
01:10:05,239 --> 01:10:08,220
thoroughly researched literature seems to suggest there is

1791
01:10:08,220 --> 01:10:09,119
a difference.

1792
01:10:09,119 --> 01:10:11,210
Cluster development is something that is generally

1793
01:10:11,210 --> 01:10:11,800
encouraged.

1794
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:14,119
It is a type of development.

1795
01:10:14,119 --> 01:10:17,699
Conservation development is much more specific and tied to

1796
01:10:17,699 --> 01:10:19,119
certain processes.

1797
01:10:19,119 --> 01:10:21,869
Cluster development calls for a set aside of open space,

1798
01:10:21,869 --> 01:10:23,359
but doesn't really apply any

1799
01:10:23,359 --> 01:10:26,720
development criteria, design criteria to that.

1800
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:28,640
There is a higher standard for conservation development for

1801
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:29,640
quantity, quality, and the

1802
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:33,039
configuration of what that open space looks like.

1803
01:10:33,039 --> 01:10:34,680
Cluster development is often in conditional use.

1804
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:36,500
It could be done through planned development or specific

1805
01:10:36,500 --> 01:10:37,520
use permit or conditional use

1806
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:39,640
permits.

1807
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:43,760
Conservation development, like smart codes, are by right.

1808
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:45,899
So there are development and design criteria assigned to

1809
01:10:45,899 --> 01:10:46,239
them.

1810
01:10:46,239 --> 01:10:47,680
You can do it by right.

1811
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:50,810
It is an argument that basically makes it a little bit

1812
01:10:50,810 --> 01:10:53,039
easier for the developer to embrace

1813
01:10:53,039 --> 01:10:56,260
it rather than having to run through a process or run the

1814
01:10:56,260 --> 01:10:58,720
gauntlet through a planned development

1815
01:10:58,720 --> 01:10:59,720
or a conditional use permit.

1816
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:00,720
It is allowed by right.

1817
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:02,760
If you do these things, you can do it.

1818
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:03,880
There's no approval to it.

1819
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:06,779
It's very much like a lot of the things that we're trying

1820
01:11:06,779 --> 01:11:08,319
to move towards in terms of our

1821
01:11:08,319 --> 01:11:09,319
code development.

1822
01:11:09,319 --> 01:11:11,649
That if these are the standards, we all agree to the

1823
01:11:11,649 --> 01:11:12,359
standards.

1824
01:11:12,359 --> 01:11:16,319
You can do it by right if you meet the standards.

1825
01:11:16,319 --> 01:11:19,149
Cluster development usually calls for 25, 30 percent of the

1826
01:11:19,149 --> 01:11:20,060
gross tract area.

1827
01:11:20,060 --> 01:11:22,050
Conservation development usually looks at the net buildable

1828
01:11:22,050 --> 01:11:23,239
land area that's not constrained

1829
01:11:23,239 --> 01:11:24,619
by wetlands and floodplain.

1830
01:11:24,619 --> 01:11:28,750
That can be in some cases onerous, but definitely there's a

1831
01:11:28,750 --> 01:11:30,359
difference there.

1832
01:11:30,359 --> 01:11:32,680
Conservation development allows for noncommon open space.

1833
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:36,649
I think they had some examples that they had provided of

1834
01:11:36,649 --> 01:11:39,119
community gardens that could be

1835
01:11:39,119 --> 01:11:44,020
privately owned and some other open space areas that could

1836
01:11:44,020 --> 01:11:46,159
be not necessarily owned

1837
01:11:46,159 --> 01:11:54,520
by the public or the park system or maybe the HOA as well.

1838
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:58,310
Conservation development incentivized conservation design

1839
01:11:58,310 --> 01:11:59,359
with density.

1840
01:11:59,359 --> 01:12:01,789
It depends on how far a city would want to go with this

1841
01:12:01,789 --> 01:12:02,640
sort of thing.

1842
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:05,670
I think that what conservation development typically will

1843
01:12:05,670 --> 01:12:08,100
do is say you can only do density

1844
01:12:08,100 --> 01:12:09,100
through conservation development.

1845
01:12:09,100 --> 01:12:12,020
If you want to do typical standard lot layout, that is

1846
01:12:12,020 --> 01:12:13,880
going to have to be done at a lower

1847
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:16,800
density, the standard sort of tract layout that we see.

1848
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:18,279
That would only be allowed for lower density.

1849
01:12:18,279 --> 01:12:22,199
If you want to do higher density, it would have to be

1850
01:12:22,199 --> 01:12:24,680
conservation development.

1851
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:27,479
Cluster development allows for the same density for

1852
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,119
standard subdivision layout and conservation

1853
01:12:30,119 --> 01:12:31,359
development.

1854
01:12:31,359 --> 01:12:36,729
It does take away that sort of disincentive to conservation

1855
01:12:36,729 --> 01:12:38,319
development.

1856
01:12:38,319 --> 01:12:40,470
Then again, going back to the idea of the configuration and

1857
01:12:40,470 --> 01:12:42,079
the resulting open space,

1858
01:12:42,079 --> 01:12:45,239
conservation development usually calls for connectivity at

1859
01:12:45,239 --> 01:12:46,760
some point to the larger open

1860
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,880
space system that the city provides and ultimately to

1861
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:52,960
trails and trying to establish those connections.

1862
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:54,710
Those open space connections aren't typically called for in

1863
01:12:54,710 --> 01:12:55,479
cluster development.

1864
01:12:55,479 --> 01:12:58,359
It's basically just a you can do this if you increase the

1865
01:12:58,359 --> 01:13:00,039
open space by this percentage

1866
01:13:00,039 --> 01:13:02,399
and you can drop your lot sizes by this percentage.

1867
01:13:02,399 --> 01:13:05,640
I think conservation takes just one step further.

1868
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:09,170
I think as typically when I see a city moving towards a new

1869
01:13:09,170 --> 01:13:11,079
concept, there's usually a

1870
01:13:11,079 --> 01:13:13,500
hybrid process that you kind of as you work towards

1871
01:13:13,500 --> 01:13:15,439
something, trying to meet the needs

1872
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:20,979
of the community but also achieve the spirit of a different

1873
01:13:20,979 --> 01:13:24,560
type of land development pattern.

1874
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:29,069
Our Denton Plan 2030 has some very, very specific guidance

1875
01:13:29,069 --> 01:13:31,279
about this and actually calls for

1876
01:13:31,279 --> 01:13:33,399
it when it talks about the city's edge.

1877
01:13:33,399 --> 01:13:36,670
It calls for promotion of conservation development as an

1878
01:13:36,670 --> 01:13:39,239
alternative for large lot development.

1879
01:13:39,239 --> 01:13:42,369
It calls for revision of rural residential commercial

1880
01:13:42,369 --> 01:13:44,680
districts to allow for conservation.

1881
01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:47,310
It tells us like take a look at your zoning districts and

1882
01:13:47,310 --> 01:13:48,720
see how you can promote this

1883
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:52,569
in your rural areas and see if you can rezone those areas

1884
01:13:52,569 --> 01:13:55,000
to encourage and make this happen

1885
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:56,000
in our community.

1886
01:13:56,000 --> 01:14:00,520
It calls for the expansion of the rural open space.

1887
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:03,159
There is a great deal of guidance in our comp plan and I am

1888
01:14:03,159 --> 01:14:04,760
a little ashamed to admit that

1889
01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:06,399
I kind of went to the comp plan as an afterthought.

1890
01:14:06,399 --> 01:14:08,899
I should have started with that because there really is a

1891
01:14:08,899 --> 01:14:10,439
great deal of information in our

1892
01:14:10,439 --> 01:14:13,359
comp plan really pointing us in this direction and saying

1893
01:14:13,359 --> 01:14:15,199
this is really in the rural areas,

1894
01:14:15,199 --> 01:14:18,489
this is the development, land development pattern that we

1895
01:14:18,489 --> 01:14:20,079
should be trying to promote

1896
01:14:20,079 --> 01:14:23,210
in the rural areas, allowing for that density to come but

1897
01:14:23,210 --> 01:14:25,439
allowing for that thoughtful planning

1898
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:28,560
of density to occur.

1899
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:31,260
Some of the benefits, it reduces the cost of public

1900
01:14:31,260 --> 01:14:32,039
services.

1901
01:14:32,039 --> 01:14:34,319
Ultimately can reduce storm runoff, narrower, shorter

1902
01:14:34,319 --> 01:14:36,319
streets, larger amounts of open space,

1903
01:14:36,319 --> 01:14:40,130
allow for more natural filtration, preserves natural areas

1904
01:14:40,130 --> 01:14:42,560
and wildlife, less costs associated

1905
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:45,800
with clearing and grading and depending on the site those

1906
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:47,159
can be significant.

1907
01:14:47,159 --> 01:14:50,149
Same number of homes in theory, provides access to green

1908
01:14:50,149 --> 01:14:52,500
space, allows for smaller less expensive

1909
01:14:52,500 --> 01:14:54,989
homes while still creating a sense of place and livable

1910
01:14:54,989 --> 01:14:55,840
communities.

1911
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:59,189
It can provide buffers between neighborhoods and one of the

1912
01:14:59,189 --> 01:15:00,760
other arguments that I did

1913
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,470
not list is that it provides an open space that does not

1914
01:15:03,470 --> 01:15:05,279
become part of what is maintained

1915
01:15:05,279 --> 01:15:06,920
by the public generally.

1916
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,720
That's a positive and also can be a negative as well.

1917
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:12,079
Is it practical?

1918
01:15:12,079 --> 01:15:14,819
I spoke with a local developer recently and said why don't

1919
01:15:14,819 --> 01:15:15,600
we see this?

1920
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:17,079
Why don't we see this happening?

1921
01:15:17,079 --> 01:15:18,880
I think there's a few reasons.

1922
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:20,279
It's not a common practice.

1923
01:15:20,279 --> 01:15:22,970
It's not the standard subdivision layout that usually our

1924
01:15:22,970 --> 01:15:24,399
developers are working with.

1925
01:15:24,399 --> 01:15:26,520
It is different and maybe additional education is required,

1926
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:27,880
not just in the development community

1927
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,239
but on the part of staff as well.

1928
01:15:30,239 --> 01:15:33,239
During planning phases, lot and home layout may take extra

1929
01:15:33,239 --> 01:15:34,720
work to ensure that that open

1930
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,119
space connectivity is maintained.

1931
01:15:36,119 --> 01:15:37,760
You're not starting with a blank sheet.

1932
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:38,760
You're working with a topography.

1933
01:15:38,760 --> 01:15:41,310
You're trying to establish those connections and you're

1934
01:15:41,310 --> 01:15:42,800
sort of moving the houses around

1935
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:46,760
to make it work on the site a little bit more.

1936
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:48,970
Methods to protect the open space have to be developed and

1937
01:15:48,970 --> 01:15:50,319
implemented and carefully.

1938
01:15:50,319 --> 01:15:52,869
I think that the mechanism that we're all thinking is HOA

1939
01:15:52,869 --> 01:15:54,180
but certainly that's going

1940
01:15:54,180 --> 01:15:56,960
to impact the cost to the homeowner.

1941
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,119
That always is kind of a staff default.

1942
01:15:59,119 --> 01:16:02,149
Well, HOA maintained but there's a cost to maintenance of

1943
01:16:02,149 --> 01:16:02,960
open space.

1944
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:06,720
So we don't have land trust options.

1945
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:09,189
I haven't seen many of those utilized in the state of Texas

1946
01:16:09,189 --> 01:16:09,399
.

1947
01:16:09,399 --> 01:16:11,560
So that always falls to the HOA at this point.

1948
01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:12,640
Not always.

1949
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:14,640
Even in easement, there's still somebody owns it and

1950
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:15,880
somebody's maintaining it.

1951
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:19,439
And so there is that sort of question or impediment that

1952
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:22,220
could ultimately impact the bottom line

1953
01:16:22,220 --> 01:16:24,720
for the homeowner.

1954
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:27,920
Obviously challenges the provision of onsite sanitary sewer

1955
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:28,560
septic.

1956
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:30,840
We typically require an acre for that.

1957
01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:32,420
This becomes a little problematic.

1958
01:16:32,420 --> 01:16:35,640
That type of estate development really doesn't work well

1959
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:37,800
with this principle of conservation

1960
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:38,800
development.

1961
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:40,560
And then here's the big one.

1962
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:44,279
I scoured and looked at aerials and just looked at found

1963
01:16:44,279 --> 01:16:46,399
the name of a conservation.

1964
01:16:46,399 --> 01:16:48,039
There's plenty of them out there.

1965
01:16:48,039 --> 01:16:49,479
And then we'd go to the aerials and look at them.

1966
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:53,449
I had a hard time finding ones that really have that sort

1967
01:16:53,449 --> 01:16:55,840
of affordable housing density

1968
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:58,579
that we're saying is one of the pluses, one of the positive

1969
01:16:58,579 --> 01:16:59,159
things.

1970
01:16:59,159 --> 01:17:00,680
I think that it's out there.

1971
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:03,119
I think that in theory that is the point.

1972
01:17:03,119 --> 01:17:05,640
You get the same yield off the same land except that you

1973
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:07,920
just basically drop your density.

1974
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:11,680
You drop your lot area and you get the same ultimate yield

1975
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:12,760
off the land.

1976
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:16,609
But I had a hard time -- mostly what I found were larger,

1977
01:17:16,609 --> 01:17:18,880
higher price point houses that

1978
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:22,159
were occurring in these types of development projects.

1979
01:17:22,159 --> 01:17:24,869
But I was looking really hard to find some lower price

1980
01:17:24,869 --> 01:17:26,420
point because I think that is

1981
01:17:26,420 --> 01:17:32,600
ultimately where the beauty of it is if we can make that

1982
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:33,960
happen.

1983
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:36,750
And just taking a look at our general development

1984
01:17:36,750 --> 01:17:39,319
regulations that we have on the books right

1985
01:17:39,319 --> 01:17:43,180
now, when a subdivision is more than two acres, we have

1986
01:17:43,180 --> 01:17:45,600
some different requirements.

1987
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:47,720
And if you look down at general regulations, these are the

1988
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:49,079
regulations for all subdivisions

1989
01:17:49,079 --> 01:17:51,520
that are -- for all subdivisions.

1990
01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:54,579
But they don't apply to subdivisions that are greater than

1991
01:17:54,579 --> 01:17:55,340
two acres.

1992
01:17:55,340 --> 01:17:58,039
They can apply but they don't apply to subdivisions that

1993
01:17:58,039 --> 01:17:59,560
are greater than two acres.

1994
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,989
In lieu of that, if you exceed two acres, the one in the

1995
01:18:02,989 --> 01:18:04,840
top left corner that has the

1996
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:08,840
two rows is what applies to you.

1997
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:12,350
So essentially minimum lot size we place with maximum

1998
01:18:12,350 --> 01:18:14,840
density in the second table if you're

1999
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:16,319
more than two acres.

2000
01:18:16,319 --> 01:18:19,069
And side yard increases for -- the side yard will increase

2001
01:18:19,069 --> 01:18:20,539
for most of the districts.

2002
01:18:20,539 --> 01:18:22,800
And then all other setbacks are eliminated.

2003
01:18:22,800 --> 01:18:25,149
So for our residential districts greater than two acres, we

2004
01:18:25,149 --> 01:18:26,560
have some different standards.

2005
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:28,239
Side yards look a little different.

2006
01:18:28,239 --> 01:18:32,359
And we move away from lot size and move into density.

2007
01:18:32,359 --> 01:18:35,079
There are no requirements.

2008
01:18:35,079 --> 01:18:38,550
I think this was a swipe, a sort of effort to try encourage

2009
01:18:38,550 --> 01:18:40,520
conservation development.

2010
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:42,760
It was our sort of our first attempt.

2011
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:44,279
But I think it fell a little short.

2012
01:18:44,279 --> 01:18:47,220
We don't have any requirements for corresponding open space

2013
01:18:47,220 --> 01:18:47,460
.

2014
01:18:47,460 --> 01:18:50,770
So if you can't for some reason achieve your density

2015
01:18:50,770 --> 01:18:53,560
because it's encumbered by floodplain

2016
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:57,199
or environmentally sensitive areas, you certainly are able

2017
01:18:57,199 --> 01:18:59,319
to drop that lot size and get a higher

2018
01:18:59,319 --> 01:19:01,920
density on your project counting that total acreage.

2019
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:05,359
So there's a little gap there that ultimately could result

2020
01:19:05,359 --> 01:19:06,720
in higher density.

2021
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:08,859
Because we're moving -- if it's encumbered and it's not

2022
01:19:08,859 --> 01:19:10,279
developable, we're looking at

2023
01:19:10,279 --> 01:19:13,369
the entire site, you don't have minimum lot size anymore,

2024
01:19:13,369 --> 01:19:15,180
you can increase your density.

2025
01:19:15,180 --> 01:19:18,180
So there's a little loophole there or that sort of moved

2026
01:19:18,180 --> 01:19:18,680
away.

2027
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:21,109
But you are still conserving that FEMA area or that area

2028
01:19:21,109 --> 01:19:22,840
that's encumbered by environmental

2029
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:23,840
sensitive areas.

2030
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:27,170
So it does achieve a goal to a certain degree, but

2031
01:19:27,170 --> 01:19:29,800
certainly not in the cleanest way.

2032
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:32,359
And then again, there's no requirements for open space that

2033
01:19:32,359 --> 01:19:33,920
are in there with just the

2034
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:35,640
density changes.

2035
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:38,890
Encourage the thoughtful siting of dwellings, but not a

2036
01:19:38,890 --> 01:19:41,439
thoughtful application of open space.

2037
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:46,180
So when you say that you can -- that we now move from the

2038
01:19:46,180 --> 01:19:47,579
average -- I mean the required

2039
01:19:47,579 --> 01:19:51,550
minimum lot area of 32,000 square feet and we move away now

2040
01:19:51,550 --> 01:19:53,159
to a maximum density of one

2041
01:19:53,159 --> 01:19:57,250
unit per acre, it's -- and then you basically increase your

2042
01:19:57,250 --> 01:19:58,319
side yard.

2043
01:19:58,319 --> 01:20:00,949
It's sort of encouraging open space within the site, but it

2044
01:20:00,949 --> 01:20:02,319
's encouraging sort of maybe

2045
01:20:02,319 --> 01:20:06,060
a thoughtful placement of buildings with consideration to

2046
01:20:06,060 --> 01:20:07,000
open space.

2047
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:09,810
But it really isn't calling for any clear direction for

2048
01:20:09,810 --> 01:20:11,319
what that open space should

2049
01:20:11,319 --> 01:20:13,550
look like, what those common areas could be, how those

2050
01:20:13,550 --> 01:20:15,159
could be ultimately connected, and

2051
01:20:15,159 --> 01:20:17,600
doesn't establish any minimum percentages.

2052
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:20,359
So we have kind of given away a few things with our code,

2053
01:20:20,359 --> 01:20:21,840
and I'm not sure that we have

2054
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:25,359
achieved the desired result, which is ultimately conserved.

2055
01:20:25,359 --> 01:20:31,100
There's certainly a more direct route to get there.

2056
01:20:31,100 --> 01:20:34,340
One tool for conservation development is planned

2057
01:20:34,340 --> 01:20:35,479
development.

2058
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:37,880
And when I talked earlier about that interim phase, that

2059
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:39,479
walking before you can run, before

2060
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:42,710
you want to embrace full on disincentives for density, it

2061
01:20:42,710 --> 01:20:44,760
could be a planned development.

2062
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:47,579
And I think you're aware that staff is hoping to bring

2063
01:20:47,579 --> 01:20:49,600
something forward and reintroduce

2064
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:53,720
the idea of planned development to the community.

2065
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:56,520
I mean to the commission for consideration at some point.

2066
01:20:56,520 --> 01:20:59,289
It was here, it's gone, we're thinking it's maybe time to

2067
01:20:59,289 --> 01:21:00,920
bring it back, but in a better

2068
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:02,239
way.

2069
01:21:02,239 --> 01:21:05,430
You remember that I presented this at the previous

2070
01:21:05,430 --> 01:21:07,800
presentation, talked about that a

2071
01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:09,970
planned development is integrated development that

2072
01:21:09,970 --> 01:21:11,479
essentially takes a look at a single

2073
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:13,680
track that allows us to facilitate smart growth,

2074
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:16,319
sustainable land use practices including conservation

2075
01:21:16,319 --> 01:21:18,199
development, and mixed use development.

2076
01:21:18,199 --> 01:21:20,760
It allows mixing of residential types.

2077
01:21:20,760 --> 01:21:24,659
It allows flexibility within the lot sizes, setbacks, all

2078
01:21:24,659 --> 01:21:26,960
that to achieve an overall unified

2079
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:28,439
and superior design.

2080
01:21:28,439 --> 01:21:31,119
And so I had a couple examples, and I remember mentioning

2081
01:21:31,119 --> 01:21:32,720
to you that these examples could

2082
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:37,520
not be done in the city of Denton, that they would not meet

2083
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:40,439
our minimum acreage requirements

2084
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:49,640
for a master plan community.

2085
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:52,949
Ultimately planned development, just to recap, can promote

2086
01:21:52,949 --> 01:21:54,840
flexibility in land use design,

2087
01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:59,210
allows for innovative land use designs, integration of dens

2088
01:21:59,210 --> 01:22:02,399
ities, achieves a more balanced community.

2089
01:22:02,399 --> 01:22:05,529
I think it's the whole point of these master plan

2090
01:22:05,529 --> 01:22:07,960
developments is that you see, and the

2091
01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:09,729
ones that I've seen done well in different parts of the

2092
01:22:09,729 --> 01:22:10,920
country, do integrate different

2093
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:12,119
price points.

2094
01:22:12,119 --> 01:22:14,689
So you don't have pockets of this is where the state

2095
01:22:14,689 --> 01:22:16,520
housing is, and this is where the

2096
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:20,199
little houses are, and the two shall never come near each

2097
01:22:20,199 --> 01:22:20,880
other.

2098
01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:23,229
It integrates, creates a community that integrates a lot of

2099
01:22:23,229 --> 01:22:24,680
different price points, and done

2100
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,039
really beautifully with great deal of success in other

2101
01:22:27,039 --> 01:22:29,119
communities through master plan communities

2102
01:22:29,119 --> 01:22:32,560
or plan development mechanisms.

2103
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:35,170
Promotes more compact development, effective integration of

2104
01:22:35,170 --> 01:22:36,439
open space, and allows site

2105
01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:41,449
specific regulations in response to mitigate offsite

2106
01:22:41,449 --> 01:22:42,600
impacts.

2107
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:44,850
So on a smaller level, plan development can help us to, I

2108
01:22:44,850 --> 01:22:46,079
think of some projects that

2109
01:22:46,079 --> 01:22:48,810
have been before you recently where smaller project, there

2110
01:22:48,810 --> 01:22:50,159
's offsite impacts, we just

2111
01:22:50,159 --> 01:22:53,989
have straight zoning, and all they can do to maybe raise

2112
01:22:53,989 --> 01:22:56,039
the roof or go a little higher

2113
01:22:56,039 --> 01:22:58,670
would be to get to the next zoning category, but we don't

2114
01:22:58,670 --> 01:23:00,000
want that because we don't know

2115
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:01,479
what else that will bring.

2116
01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:03,560
So developers are caught in a conundrum.

2117
01:23:03,560 --> 01:23:05,369
All I can do is go to the higher zoning category to make

2118
01:23:05,369 --> 01:23:06,640
this happen, and we really don't want

2119
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:07,640
to see that.

2120
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:09,560
We want to see, we'll give you that, but then we want this

2121
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:10,199
other thing.

2122
01:23:10,199 --> 01:23:13,819
We don't have a tool for basically managing some of those

2123
01:23:13,819 --> 01:23:16,079
things through the conventional

2124
01:23:16,079 --> 01:23:24,079
zoning restrictions that we're dealing with right now.

2125
01:23:24,079 --> 01:23:25,880
This is just a recap from a previous presentation that was

2126
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:27,199
provided to the commission by another

2127
01:23:27,199 --> 01:23:30,289
staff member, but there were reasons why it didn't work in

2128
01:23:30,289 --> 01:23:31,720
Denton, and part of it, and

2129
01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:35,420
I think the biggest one of these that, there's two I think

2130
01:23:35,420 --> 01:23:37,640
really big ones in here, is that

2131
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:42,380
they, plan development weren't achieving that higher design

2132
01:23:42,380 --> 01:23:44,560
component, that elevated integrated

2133
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:48,039
site development component that we're trying to achieve

2134
01:23:48,039 --> 01:23:49,920
through plan development.

2135
01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:50,920
That can be worked on.

2136
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:53,840
I think that can be improved through the ordinance.

2137
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:56,750
And then ultimately, and this is in so many communities

2138
01:23:56,750 --> 01:23:58,680
across the entire state of Texas,

2139
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:00,670
is that plan development is often used as a remedy for

2140
01:24:00,670 --> 01:24:01,239
variance.

2141
01:24:01,239 --> 01:24:03,909
So you don't want to do your setbacks, do a PD, and you can

2142
01:24:03,909 --> 01:24:05,159
drop your setbacks, but

2143
01:24:05,159 --> 01:24:07,550
if you're not achieving what the comp plan asks you to

2144
01:24:07,550 --> 01:24:09,439
achieve, if you're not achieving,

2145
01:24:09,439 --> 01:24:13,609
similar to our alternative development plan, some sort of

2146
01:24:13,609 --> 01:24:16,300
integrated, elevated, and higher

2147
01:24:16,300 --> 01:24:18,630
urban design with your project, then really it has not met

2148
01:24:18,630 --> 01:24:20,239
the intent of what a plan development

2149
01:24:20,239 --> 01:24:21,239
should do.

2150
01:24:21,239 --> 01:24:22,680
We should get something for it.

2151
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:25,000
And so there's, and then tracking them is always difficult.

2152
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:28,229
But these are some things I think that we are prepared to,

2153
01:24:28,229 --> 01:24:29,760
I think, work on in a more

2154
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:34,510
comprehensive way and put some fail safes into our

2155
01:24:34,510 --> 01:24:37,340
ordinance to prevent sort of this

2156
01:24:37,340 --> 01:24:41,770
type of lower quality development or less than, development

2157
01:24:41,770 --> 01:24:43,920
that's not quite consistent with

2158
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:49,399
our comp plan.

2159
01:24:49,399 --> 01:24:52,039
Some ways to do that are authorized, and these could be

2160
01:24:52,039 --> 01:24:54,199
tailored specifically for conservation

2161
01:24:54,199 --> 01:24:57,399
development, so we could essentially authorize density

2162
01:24:57,399 --> 01:24:59,359
bonuses as an incentive for the use

2163
01:24:59,359 --> 01:25:05,239
of plan developments, or PUDs in this case, to encourage

2164
01:25:05,239 --> 01:25:07,880
open space protection.

2165
01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:10,199
Minimum acreage for eligible projects.

2166
01:25:10,199 --> 01:25:12,199
These may be different for infill thresholds of something

2167
01:25:12,199 --> 01:25:13,279
that is in the city that we're

2168
01:25:13,279 --> 01:25:16,279
trying to mitigate offsite impacts, might have a different

2169
01:25:16,279 --> 01:25:17,720
threshold, but certainly

2170
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:21,880
I've seen pros and cons to the idea of a 25 acre minimum

2171
01:25:21,880 --> 01:25:24,319
plan development where you might

2172
01:25:24,319 --> 01:25:26,789
be encouraging conservation development through that

2173
01:25:26,789 --> 01:25:27,479
mechanism.

2174
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:32,229
And then standards for reservation, dedication of open

2175
01:25:32,229 --> 01:25:34,800
space might be a way to condition

2176
01:25:34,800 --> 01:25:37,060
that approval for the plan development that's trying to

2177
01:25:37,060 --> 01:25:38,760
achieve conservation development.

2178
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:42,000
You could integrate what those standards are for dedication

2179
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:43,439
on the space, what kind of

2180
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:45,800
connectivity you're looking for, maybe special provisions

2181
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:47,479
for multi-track developments that

2182
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:50,229
encourage that connection and larger tracks of open space

2183
01:25:50,229 --> 01:25:51,640
that's shared between the two

2184
01:25:51,640 --> 01:25:52,640
tracks.

2185
01:25:52,640 --> 01:25:55,289
So just some things that could be integrated into a plan

2186
01:25:55,289 --> 01:25:56,960
development ordinance to allow

2187
01:25:56,960 --> 01:26:01,710
conservation to development or cluster development to move

2188
01:26:01,710 --> 01:26:04,039
forward in a more measured way as

2189
01:26:04,039 --> 01:26:08,039
we sort of branch out into this new idea.

2190
01:26:08,039 --> 01:26:11,079
I'd be glad to answer any questions you have.

2191
01:26:11,079 --> 01:26:12,560
Commissioner Taylor.

2192
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:15,859
Thank you, Chair.

2193
01:26:15,859 --> 01:26:18,279
So I just wanted to comment that this is, I think this

2194
01:26:18,279 --> 01:26:19,779
solves a lot of the problems we've

2195
01:26:19,779 --> 01:26:23,960
looked at before with NR2 lot coverage and other low

2196
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:26,579
density lot coverage issues.

2197
01:26:26,579 --> 01:26:30,189
The density transfers exist now and those occur, but then

2198
01:26:30,189 --> 01:26:32,359
you end up with a constrained lot

2199
01:26:32,359 --> 01:26:37,550
that has to have 60% landscape or something like that and

2200
01:26:37,550 --> 01:26:40,279
it's hard to fit what everybody

2201
01:26:40,279 --> 01:26:43,239
wants on that lot there.

2202
01:26:43,239 --> 01:26:46,649
This allows that green space to be just across the back

2203
01:26:46,649 --> 01:26:48,920
fence in a publicly shared area and

2204
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:53,350
permanently preserved area and so people should be able to

2205
01:26:53,350 --> 01:26:55,600
build out there lots more.

2206
01:26:55,600 --> 01:26:58,569
And especially in South Denton, we have a lot of NR2 and a

2207
01:26:58,569 --> 01:27:00,319
lot of NR1 that's undeveloped

2208
01:27:00,319 --> 01:27:04,199
and it's an ordeal to get it rezoned and the easiest method

2209
01:27:04,199 --> 01:27:06,520
is usually density transfers,

2210
01:27:06,520 --> 01:27:10,100
but then they run into all these barriers when they try and

2211
01:27:10,100 --> 01:27:11,899
build three houses per acre

2212
01:27:11,899 --> 01:27:16,810
densely in an NR1 area and then have a bunch of preserved

2213
01:27:16,810 --> 01:27:18,439
area behind it.

2214
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:21,939
So I think that expanding this and making it more holistic

2215
01:27:21,939 --> 01:27:23,720
and addressing things like

2216
01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:28,760
lot coverage and other things will make that density

2217
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:32,279
transfer more useful and end up with

2218
01:27:32,279 --> 01:27:36,520
better development overall.

2219
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:37,520
Plan developments.

2220
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:40,409
You can look all over Fort Worth and see some beautiful

2221
01:27:40,409 --> 01:27:42,560
plan developments that are this area

2222
01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:46,399
is zoned to be an auto body storage facility and that's the

2223
01:27:46,399 --> 01:27:48,239
only use that's allowed on

2224
01:27:48,239 --> 01:27:51,600
a 10 acre parcel.

2225
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:55,539
I don't know how we would control PDs because when Denton

2226
01:27:55,539 --> 01:27:57,720
had them and when other cities

2227
01:27:57,720 --> 01:28:00,979
in the area have had them, they become the I'm going to

2228
01:28:00,979 --> 01:28:02,880
write my own zoning category

2229
01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:06,930
and usually they're not well thought out, they're not like

2230
01:28:06,930 --> 01:28:08,680
an MPC, they're I want to

2231
01:28:08,680 --> 01:28:11,960
do this one thing here and I'm going to find a way to get

2232
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:12,960
it through.

2233
01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:15,960
I can get it through with plan development, right?

2234
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:17,399
That's the default, right?

2235
01:28:17,399 --> 01:28:21,239
So whenever, like moving forward with PDs, I think it's

2236
01:28:21,239 --> 01:28:23,199
they need to have safeties on

2237
01:28:23,199 --> 01:28:24,199
them.

2238
01:28:24,199 --> 01:28:27,550
They do provide a valuable tool for flexible development,

2239
01:28:27,550 --> 01:28:29,199
but there need to be safeties

2240
01:28:29,199 --> 01:28:32,560
to prevent them from just being the loophole generator.

2241
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:35,340
And the conservation development, I think we can take the

2242
01:28:35,340 --> 01:28:36,840
idea, like you said, that's

2243
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:40,500
in our code about density transfer and expand on it and

2244
01:28:40,500 --> 01:28:42,880
make it better and encourage more

2245
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:45,270
development to go that way, like you said, lower

2246
01:28:45,270 --> 01:28:46,600
infrastructure costs.

2247
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:48,229
It's better for everybody, even the people that don't live

2248
01:28:48,229 --> 01:28:49,140
in that neighborhood, less

2249
01:28:49,140 --> 01:28:52,609
infrastructure that their taxes have to support, more open

2250
01:28:52,609 --> 01:28:54,560
space that they can enjoy across

2251
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:58,560
the other side of the fence, so to speak.

2252
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:02,960
I have a couple comments and observations.

2253
01:29:02,960 --> 01:29:07,600
I think the idea and the concept is great.

2254
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:10,850
I think the issues are going to come into the application

2255
01:29:10,850 --> 01:29:12,500
of it from my experience.

2256
01:29:12,500 --> 01:29:16,109
And just a couple things that may have already been

2257
01:29:16,109 --> 01:29:19,479
considered by staff is that in my development

2258
01:29:19,479 --> 01:29:23,609
career, run into this before trying to do creative projects

2259
01:29:23,609 --> 01:29:25,960
, you run into street design

2260
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:29,470
criteria, the curve data doesn't work, the slope data doesn

2261
01:29:29,470 --> 01:29:31,079
't work, you can't design

2262
01:29:31,079 --> 01:29:35,569
the streets based on what our minimums are to be able to do

2263
01:29:35,569 --> 01:29:36,880
those things.

2264
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:38,720
And then same thing with your utilities.

2265
01:29:38,720 --> 01:29:42,029
You end up with a lot of dead end utilities and the

2266
01:29:42,029 --> 01:29:44,640
inability to loop and all the things

2267
01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:48,319
that engineering can design the platform.

2268
01:29:48,319 --> 01:29:50,720
You go trying to go sit down with those guys and say, "It's

2269
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:51,920
going to be a straight line.

2270
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:53,399
It's got to tie here and tie here."

2271
01:29:53,399 --> 01:29:55,869
Well, this is a really creative idea and I'd love to do

2272
01:29:55,869 --> 01:29:56,319
this.

2273
01:29:56,319 --> 01:29:59,439
Well, it doesn't meet our design criteria.

2274
01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:02,380
And then the only way to do that is to then try to do it

2275
01:30:02,380 --> 01:30:04,159
private streets and an HOA and

2276
01:30:04,159 --> 01:30:06,399
then all the additional costs and who's going to maintain

2277
01:30:06,399 --> 01:30:07,680
it and all the other things that

2278
01:30:07,680 --> 01:30:08,680
we've talked about here.

2279
01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:11,500
So I would champion those things and I just want to is that

2280
01:30:11,500 --> 01:30:12,920
's the direction that we're

2281
01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:14,439
going.

2282
01:30:14,439 --> 01:30:17,689
This is going to be, in my opinion, an integral part in

2283
01:30:17,689 --> 01:30:19,800
that conversation to take it from

2284
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:23,380
it looks great on a board or on a piece of paper to how do

2285
01:30:23,380 --> 01:30:25,359
we actually go out there and

2286
01:30:25,359 --> 01:30:29,069
put it in the ground and engineer it and it's accepted by

2287
01:30:29,069 --> 01:30:31,399
the city to make it a reality.

2288
01:30:31,399 --> 01:30:35,750
And those would be my couple of comments to help add to

2289
01:30:35,750 --> 01:30:38,399
that to make it more of a reality

2290
01:30:38,399 --> 01:30:42,640
for the city of Denton.

2291
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:49,439
Any other comments on this item?

2292
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:52,680
Thank you for a great presentation.

2293
01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:56,260
We've run a little long on our work session and our meeting

2294
01:30:56,260 --> 01:30:58,079
looks to be fairly short.

2295
01:30:58,079 --> 01:31:00,920
I know we talked about possibly taking a break to eat.

2296
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:04,970
I don't know if it'd be this commission's purview to let's

2297
01:31:04,970 --> 01:31:06,680
just press on and have our

2298
01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:10,420
meeting and I think it will go reasonably quickly based on

2299
01:31:10,420 --> 01:31:12,239
it's just a consent agenda

2300
01:31:12,239 --> 01:31:14,439
and then those that like to stay can eat.

2301
01:31:14,439 --> 01:31:17,680
Is that acceptable to everybody?

2302
01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:18,840
Okay.

2303
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:24,739
With that at 634, I'm going to close our work session for

2304
01:31:24,739 --> 01:31:27,840
Planning and Zoning Commission

2305
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:30,520
and I'm going to move right on into...

2306
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:31,520
We need to pause.

2307
01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:32,520
Sorry.

2308
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:37,880
We need to pause to reset the tape.

2309
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:44,479
Two minutes.

2310
01:31:44,479 --> 01:31:50,359
Good evening and welcome to the City of Denton Planning and

2311
01:31:50,359 --> 01:31:53,479
Zoning Commission meeting for

2312
01:31:53,479 --> 01:31:54,479
April 27th.

2313
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:59,029
It is 637 and our meeting has been duly posted and a quorum

2314
01:31:59,029 --> 01:32:01,439
in present and I call our meeting

2315
01:32:01,439 --> 01:32:03,399
to order at this time.

2316
01:32:03,399 --> 01:32:05,789
Our first order of business is going to be to stand and

2317
01:32:05,789 --> 01:32:07,199
give a pledge to the US and the

2318
01:32:07,199 --> 01:32:10,199
Texas flag.

2319
01:32:10,199 --> 01:32:14,949
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of

2320
01:32:14,949 --> 01:32:17,680
America and to the republic for

2321
01:32:17,680 --> 01:32:24,100
which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with

2322
01:32:24,100 --> 01:32:27,479
liberty and justice for all.

2323
01:32:27,479 --> 01:32:36,100
On earth, Texas flag, I pledge allegiance to the city of

2324
01:32:36,100 --> 01:32:41,000
Texas, one state, under God,

2325
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:46,880
one individual.

2326
01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:49,270
Our next item on our agenda tonight is going to be to

2327
01:32:49,270 --> 01:32:51,199
consider the approval of the Planning

2328
01:32:51,199 --> 01:32:54,829
and Zoning Commission minutes and I'm going to call for two

2329
01:32:54,829 --> 01:32:56,239
separate motions.

2330
01:32:56,239 --> 01:33:02,439
I'll take our March 23rd minutes first.

2331
01:33:02,439 --> 01:33:03,439
Commissioner Bribble.

2332
01:33:03,439 --> 01:33:04,960
Thank you, Chair.

2333
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:07,399
I had a clarification I'd like to make to the minutes.

2334
01:33:07,399 --> 01:33:09,039
It's on page three.

2335
01:33:09,039 --> 01:33:13,130
When we were talking about the tree ordinance, I had asked

2336
01:33:13,130 --> 01:33:15,359
a question somewhere in there

2337
01:33:15,359 --> 01:33:20,100
about penalties and fines and making sure that we had stric

2338
01:33:20,100 --> 01:33:22,399
ter standards when someone

2339
01:33:22,399 --> 01:33:26,199
was found to be cutting down trees illegally.

2340
01:33:26,199 --> 01:33:27,800
That didn't make it into the minutes.

2341
01:33:27,800 --> 01:33:33,409
Additionally, line 28, when legal is talking about the, it

2342
01:33:33,409 --> 01:33:36,319
says Jennifer de Curtis, deputy

2343
01:33:36,319 --> 01:33:38,890
city attorney, stated although the attorney general is a

2344
01:33:38,890 --> 01:33:40,119
state law requirement.

2345
01:33:40,119 --> 01:33:43,329
I think you meant to say the ag, we're talking about the ag

2346
01:33:43,329 --> 01:33:44,279
exemption.

2347
01:33:44,279 --> 01:33:46,909
So that needs to be cleaned up and if we could somehow add

2348
01:33:46,909 --> 01:33:48,520
that line of questioning back

2349
01:33:48,520 --> 01:33:50,800
into the minutes, I would appreciate that.

2350
01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:52,479
But that was my only correction.

2351
01:33:52,479 --> 01:33:53,479
Thank you.

2352
01:33:53,479 --> 01:34:03,119
Do you like to make a motion?

2353
01:34:03,119 --> 01:34:04,119
Commissioner Roselle.

2354
01:34:04,119 --> 01:34:09,119
I motion to approve the March 23rd minutes.

2355
01:34:09,119 --> 01:34:10,119
With the correction.

2356
01:34:10,119 --> 01:34:14,359
Yes, with the corrections from Commissioner Bribble.

2357
01:34:14,359 --> 01:34:15,359
Commissioner Beck.

2358
01:34:15,359 --> 01:34:16,359
Second.

2359
01:34:16,359 --> 01:34:17,359
Okay.

2360
01:34:17,359 --> 01:34:21,159
First and a second to approve.

2361
01:34:21,159 --> 01:34:30,800
Call for a vote on the board.

2362
01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:33,989
Motion carries seven zero and I want to clarify that motion

2363
01:34:33,989 --> 01:34:36,119
was with to approve with the corrections

2364
01:34:36,119 --> 01:34:42,359
on it.

2365
01:34:42,359 --> 01:34:47,670
We'll take our next item will be our minutes for April 13th

2366
01:34:47,670 --> 01:34:48,039
.

2367
01:34:48,039 --> 01:34:49,039
Commissioner Bribble.

2368
01:34:49,039 --> 01:34:50,039
Thank you, Chair.

2369
01:34:50,039 --> 01:34:51,760
I have another correction in these minutes as well.

2370
01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:56,079
It's on page six, lines 20 through 24.

2371
01:34:56,079 --> 01:35:01,310
I was speaking about the matrix and I had suggested the

2372
01:35:01,310 --> 01:35:03,960
last one was says the third

2373
01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:06,680
item requested is in regards to the true ordinance.

2374
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:09,579
Actually the third item that I requested was an update on

2375
01:35:09,579 --> 01:35:11,260
conservation development, which

2376
01:35:11,260 --> 01:35:12,260
we did tonight.

2377
01:35:12,260 --> 01:35:14,649
But I just want the minutes to reflect that that was my

2378
01:35:14,649 --> 01:35:15,520
third request.

2379
01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:16,520
Thank you.

2380
01:35:16,520 --> 01:35:17,520
Okay.

2381
01:35:17,520 --> 01:35:18,520
Oh, and oh.

2382
01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:20,279
Keep going.

2383
01:35:20,279 --> 01:35:22,640
You're good.

2384
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:24,800
Can I make a motion to approve the minutes?

2385
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:25,800
You beat me to it, Jim.

2386
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:28,479
Well, I beat you to it because I have one other.

2387
01:35:28,479 --> 01:35:29,479
Okay.

2388
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:30,479
Okay.

2389
01:35:30,479 --> 01:35:34,149
In addition to the corrections from Commissioner Bribble,

2390
01:35:34,149 --> 01:35:36,199
there was one other on page six,

2391
01:35:36,199 --> 01:35:38,319
line 10.

2392
01:35:38,319 --> 01:35:41,090
Frank Connor is listed and I think it should have been

2393
01:35:41,090 --> 01:35:42,920
based on clarification is Frank

2394
01:35:42,920 --> 01:35:43,920
Dudowitz.

2395
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:46,800
So give Connor a pass.

2396
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:49,039
He didn't make the meeting.

2397
01:35:49,039 --> 01:35:57,119
So anyway, the chair have a second.

2398
01:35:57,119 --> 01:35:58,119
Commissioner Roselle.

2399
01:35:58,119 --> 01:35:59,119
I second.

2400
01:35:59,119 --> 01:36:00,119
Okay.

2401
01:36:00,119 --> 01:36:02,039
Have a first and a second to approve the minutes with the

2402
01:36:02,039 --> 01:36:03,680
two corrections, Commissioner Bribble

2403
01:36:03,680 --> 01:36:04,680
and Commissioner Strange.

2404
01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:11,680
And I call for a vote on the board.

2405
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:29,159
And motion passes 6-0 with one abstain.

2406
01:36:29,159 --> 01:36:34,109
Moves to our third item on our agenda tonight will be our

2407
01:36:34,109 --> 01:36:35,920
consent agenda.

2408
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:36,920
Commissioner Beck.

2409
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:40,239
I move we approve the consent agenda.

2410
01:36:40,239 --> 01:36:41,239
Okay.

2411
01:36:41,239 --> 01:36:42,239
Commissioner Dudowitz.

2412
01:36:42,239 --> 01:36:43,239
I second.

2413
01:36:43,239 --> 01:36:44,239
Okay.

2414
01:36:44,239 --> 01:36:47,399
We have a first and a second.

2415
01:36:47,399 --> 01:36:48,720
Is there some discussion?

2416
01:36:48,720 --> 01:36:49,720
Commissioner Roselle.

2417
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:53,689
Yes, we mentioned in work session that the final plat would

2418
01:36:53,689 --> 01:36:55,199
have the curb cuts.

2419
01:36:55,199 --> 01:36:57,670
So that will come back or do we approve it with that or is

2420
01:36:57,670 --> 01:36:59,000
that the assumption that that

2421
01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:02,119
would already be done?

2422
01:37:02,119 --> 01:37:05,239
Will you clarify which item that going to be?

2423
01:37:05,239 --> 01:37:08,760
It's an item PP150021.

2424
01:37:08,760 --> 01:37:12,560
In work session we talked about the north curb cut into

2425
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:15,439
Stewart not represented correctly.

2426
01:37:15,439 --> 01:37:16,439
Okay.

2427
01:37:16,439 --> 01:37:20,380
I'll ask for clarification of staff if we can go ahead with

2428
01:37:20,380 --> 01:37:22,079
as is since it's a preliminary

2429
01:37:22,079 --> 01:37:25,680
plat and that can be addressed at the final plat or if we

2430
01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:28,079
need to do something different.

2431
01:37:28,079 --> 01:37:30,760
That's something we can require during the final plat.

2432
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:31,760
Perfect.

2433
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:32,760
Thank you.

2434
01:37:32,760 --> 01:37:33,760
Okay.

2435
01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:34,760
Commissioner Dudowitz.

2436
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:40,399
For a point of clarification, when we see plats like this,

2437
01:37:40,399 --> 01:37:42,880
I'm going to ask the staff,

2438
01:37:42,880 --> 01:37:45,460
and they had that detail, is it just there for their

2439
01:37:45,460 --> 01:37:47,239
convenience but we're not really

2440
01:37:47,239 --> 01:37:49,720
looking at that at this point in time.

2441
01:37:49,720 --> 01:37:51,880
The detail comes in the final plat?

2442
01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:52,880
It does come in the final plat.

2443
01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:55,560
I think it was just a slight oversight that it didn't have

2444
01:37:55,560 --> 01:37:57,159
the 15 foot on each side for

2445
01:37:57,159 --> 01:38:01,079
the site requirements and I think they missed it by chance.

2446
01:38:01,079 --> 01:38:03,630
I assumed when I saw it as a preliminary plat I didn't get

2447
01:38:03,630 --> 01:38:05,239
too over excited about all that.

2448
01:38:05,239 --> 01:38:06,239
Yeah, that makes sense.

2449
01:38:06,239 --> 01:38:10,170
I just was going to make sure in the future I went through

2450
01:38:10,170 --> 01:38:12,159
it real quickly and saying

2451
01:38:12,159 --> 01:38:14,739
okay it's a preliminary and then ignored those types of

2452
01:38:14,739 --> 01:38:15,319
things.

2453
01:38:15,319 --> 01:38:18,680
There was one on the south side too that looked like that.

2454
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:22,000
Thank you.

2455
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:28,239
So we have a first and second to approve the consent agenda

2456
01:38:28,239 --> 01:38:28,680
.

2457
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:39,159
Seeing no other request to speak, I'll call for a vote on

2458
01:38:39,159 --> 01:38:41,600
the board.

2459
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:45,279
Motion carries 7-0.

2460
01:38:45,279 --> 01:38:49,399
That moves us to item four, our public hearing section.

2461
01:38:49,399 --> 01:38:56,949
And I'm at this time going to open public hearing Z16-003

2462
01:38:56,949 --> 01:38:59,960
and I will go ahead and make

2463
01:38:59,960 --> 01:39:03,899
a motion based on I believe a request by the applicant that

2464
01:39:03,899 --> 01:39:05,920
this item will be continued

2465
01:39:05,920 --> 01:39:14,439
to date certain of May the 11th, 2016.

2466
01:39:14,439 --> 01:39:15,439
Commissioner Dudowitz?

2467
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:17,720
I second the motion.

2468
01:39:17,720 --> 01:39:18,720
Okay.

2469
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:19,720
Any discussion?

2470
01:39:19,720 --> 01:39:30,239
Seeing none, I'll call for a vote on the board.

2471
01:39:30,239 --> 01:39:34,329
That motion carries 7-0 and that moves us to our final

2472
01:39:34,329 --> 01:39:36,600
couple of items, our project

2473
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:40,239
matrix and our concluding items.

2474
01:39:40,239 --> 01:39:55,890
Seeing no request on those two items, I will close our

2475
01:39:55,890 --> 01:39:58,920
meeting at 646.

2476
01:39:58,920 --> 01:39:59,319
Thank you very much.