Planning and zoning Commission work session together
We have this meeting has been duly noticed and we have a qu
orum present
Our first item of business is going to be to receive a
report on
PZ 15 - point zero to five
Clarification of agenda items
Let me back up we're going to do the clarification of
agenda items and then we'll go to our work session reports
Thank you
Person if I may take the liberty and opportunity to
introduce two new team members to our development services
planning department specifically
We have made several enhancements to our team as you are
all aware. We have created the long-range planning
component
That's officially underway behind some of the commissioners
in front of some of the commissioners
We have Ron Mungita who has assumed the role of long-range
planning administrator
So that we can move forward with implementing the elements
of the long-range plan that we had have discussed several
times
I would also like to introduce in the back. We have Shand
rian Jarvis. She is our planning supervisor
She will be working on development review and we also have
Beverly's end who is our DRC administrator
Please do welcome her and feel free to call them and ask
them any questions that you have as we move forward
Welcome
Thank you. That being said we'll go ahead and discuss the
first few items on our workshop
Which are the final which the first one is the final plat
for epic addition. I'm going to ask Julie Wyatt to
Go ahead and present that and go over the elements
associated with that plat
We have two plats going forward for epic addition the
preliminary plat and the final plat are both coming forward
to you tonight
So if you recall
If you recall a few months ago you had an SUP come before
you for an apartment complex
That is located in about the unicorn Lake area. So this is
just they they received their SUP
From City Council. So they're just coming forward with
their plat
They do have some access easements that allow them to
access the property for both 35 and also down to Wind River
And then they've also provided access through the property
So I'll answer any questions and both the final plat and
the preliminary plat are in conformance with each other
So if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them
Good
Commissioner back
I would just choose we don't know what use is going to be
used for it
It will be multi it will actually be mixed use and there
will be some
Office and restaurant use but the primary use on the on the
property will be multifamily
Okay, so maybe two-story apartment. I believe it's three
story apartments
There was a site plan associated with the SUP that was
approved and so this
This layout is in conformance with that site plan
That was approved
Commissioner Briggle, thank you chair
Julia when we had approved this a few months ago
there was a suggestion to create a connecting road for any
future development to
The left side, I guess of this flat if I'm looking at them
Was it it was going to be towards I can't
So I was just I'm
There I know there are no developments to the West
currently, but that was for any future connectivity
Why is that not shown on this plat and I would have to go
back and look at it
Listen to the the meetings or read or read the minutes from
that meeting
We typically don't require the connectivity to the adjacent
property because it could develop in a commercial
You know with a commercial use that you wouldn't want
necessarily want that connectivity with the apartments. So
So I would have to go back but no this plat doesn't show
that connectivity and if you wanted to
Wait to approve it we could certainly go back and look at
that
I'm wondering if we can maybe review exactly what it was
that we had approved that evening because I
Remember because I was the one that made the suggestion
that this was going to be like a mixed-use kind of area
they wanted
But a lot of the the driving was going to be done within
this particular property
And I had suggested that there'd be some connectivity to
the west side for any people that might want to perhaps
walk
I remember walking and yeah, there could there there could
be sidewalks associated with the site plan that aren't
necessarily in an easement
Okay, and actually now that I'm saying this out loud. I
remember it was a sidewalk
So with sidewalks be that would that would be later on in
the site plan and not in them
It would be a part of the building permit. Okay. I thank
you. Sorry. No, that's okay back. All right. Thanks
Commissioner dead awaits. I remember part of that
discussion the sidewalks were to access
south into the Centermark area parking lots into the
adjacent I
Think there's BJ's some restaurants
Yes, sir
The west side and the issue that they came up from the
property owner to the west was that's a professional
building and their professional
They own that property and they would be opposed to having
across
Traffic going in through their parking lot back into Wind
River. I don't know the outcome of that, but I remember
that part
Yeah, thanks for jogging my memory. I just remember that
there was some form of connectivity to the west
So I remember sidewalks now that you mentioned it
Chair's gonna chime in as I recall to your point on the
property to the west
The business park that would be to the west of this and
south
Yes, there's a street stub as I recall back in behind that
that accesses that property to the west
It's not well, this will be emergency access
Main access farther west farther. Okay. Yes
There was a back in behind Alan Nelson's and Pete McCleskey
's office
There's a street stub that accesses that property to the
west
If I recall commissioner Duddle and so that means that they
would eventually put us in there
They could they could they could attach to it. Okay, and a
property owner there would
Negate it or prove it or what I believe there were existing
Access easements like all of these have shared access eas
ements, right? So the owners of the office park
I believe have some shared access easements. So that's
already
If the easements are there and it's plotted it's fine, but
it doesn't but to someone's point it's not noted
Any other questions on this item?
Thank you, Julie, thank you
Judy's gonna go ahead and present the next plant and
preliminary plot for Brentwood Place Edition
All right
So this plot is located off of 377 north of Riney Road
It is a townhome development and they are plotting
I believe it is a hundred and seventy four residential lots
and open in seven open space lots
It will not be a gated community
Commissioner back are these what we'd call zero lot lines
in other words
ones property ends
There's no there's nothing in between
They'll be townhomes and in the didn't development code you
can have eight
townhomes that are attached within a unit so
so the the townhomes will
The eight units will be a part of one building
So I don't know if it would be considered necessary a zero
lot line, but it would be a townhome type of element
Commissioner Taylor, thank you chair
we rarely get townhomes in Denton and I
Think this is an interesting neighborhood to place them,
but I do have just some general questions regarding them
sure the
What are our rules on parking access like parking are they
are these going to have be required to have garages and?
Would that be in the front or the back or it's it has an
alley so they will be rear access the
residential site design guidelines
Require that the garage only take up 40% of the front
facade of a residential building
So the garages will actually be in the back and it will be
accessed through alley with your with a car
So in that 40% is that 40% of the ground level or is that
40% of the if you have a four-story building for example
Could you have a one-story continuous garage and you less
than for Alec Manali if I'm not mistaken
It is the ground level so you would have to have that
relief in your front elevation without taking into account
the entire mass
Of that front elevation so it would be a first story front
elevation
And I understand so this one is going to have alley access
and garages in the back in another townhome development
Would there be a requirement that there be garages in each
unit?
We I'm going to have to double check that code we don't
require garages
We do require two parking spaces per single-family resident
or single-family residential dwelling
So if they don't have a garage they would have to have at
least a parking pad that could accommodate to my right on
that mental
- cars so I'm still a garage and in that case it would be
Possible that those would be in the front. Yes
Thank you
Any other questions on this item
Thank You Julie
That every moving on to our next final plan for a mission
Street edition. I'm going to ask Ross Culbertson to go
ahead and
Present this
. Julie. Can I have your assistance real quick?
So close
Simply this is a
commercial final plats for a single tenant office use on
one lot
The plaque forms to the DDC and staff recommends approval
the use is
Tied to an individual owner who wants to build his own
office building on one lot. So with that
If you have any questions, I'll stand for you
Questions on this side
Thanks, sir, thank you
Thank you, Ross, Judy's gonna come back and present final
plot for North Park phase 2a I
Don't have this one on the screen there was a change made
to it
So it was actually at each of your spots except for you Man
al. I apologize. I didn't bring enough coffee
There was one plat note that was removed
It was it was left there in error as a residual plat note
from the preliminary plat
So plat note 6 has been removed, but this is the first
phase for Old North Park
phase 2 and
If you recall this was a zoning case that came before you
about this time last year and so they're they're beginning
and it will be
Single-family homes and I'll answer any questions
Questions on this item I
Have one and I'm trying to find that's the joy of
electronics not being a mark on it. I
Made a note
Somewhere I think it was in one of the details. Maybe it
was on the plat
about paving materials
Do we have any idea what's to go in here on these two lots
9 and 28?
temporary it will be temporary and it will be paving will
be sufficient to
accommodate the weight of a fire truck or
emergency vehicles those will actually
Be accessed for a temporary basis until phase 2 comes about
and a replat comes back before you and those will be then
Transitioned back to a residential lot. These are just here
for fire access
I understand what they're for are they gravel or are they
concrete? They'll be concrete. Okay, so it's a concrete
Temporary street that they're going to put in and they'll
remove off of these lots when they do the next phase. Okay.
Thank you. Sure
Anybody else
Commissioner Hudson
Thank you. I have a I guess it falls under legal question
and it's going to relate to some other topics. What is
What is the relief for the city with regards to HOA's?
So and it for example, for instance this says easement
shall be maintained by the HOA
Is there a deposit they put down or is there and so what is
the enforcement capability of the city?
So you're shifting that responsibility, but then what is
the enforcement mechanism for that?
There is an enforcement mechanism. There's a private right
of action that we could do to
enforce equitable
Covenants on other land, especially if there's an HOA, but
we don't necessarily exercise it ever
Generally, they're gonna have to go by the restrictions or
the HOA can enforce it through fines and foreclosure
but in some instances we do have
property where the HOA has failed to do that or the HOA
becomes abandoned or disbanded and
then sometimes we often do have to step in and
Have some sort of code action or try to enforce it
privately
in a public manner
Follow-up question. So what is what is so getting to it? So
monetarily what is the what is the end result?
So if I if I take their land then there's their fire sale
How do you how do we get compensated and only ask because
oftentimes I'll see that the city will say
We don't have it in the budget to send a crew out or works.
We're
taking on an additional expense and
So their land doesn't satisfy that expense
Usually you have to do the labor in advance or the city
will have to be on the hook for the labor so like if it's
something
Where we have to get an outside person to come in and take
things off the land or remove it like rubbish and even of a
fire
If they have to demolish a structure
Then we're gonna have to go ahead and pay for that and then
file a lien against the property any work that we do
It's gonna be a labor lien
we can also get civil penalties in that matter and that'll
be reduced to a judicial lien on the property and then in
Some events we can foreclose on it as long as it's not like
a
Homesteaded property we can foreclose and get our costs
back based on the value of the property
Which is the best we can do?
Okay
Did I answer your question? Yes, but I'm thinking there's a
I don't know what the form is
So I don't want to go outside the bounds. So I'll bring it
up this evening
And during that they're in a closing session in that way I
can
Have a thought
Thank you any other questions on this item?
Thank you Julie Ross is going to present the final plot for
Terry tree Harry's tree house edition
The evening this is a final plan for Terry's tree house we
Have worked with the applicants through the plan
development a living process to bring forth the use on the
property
This is the final plat that
records easements
Specific to that use it's in conformance with the DIN
development code and all city departments and so staffs
recommending approval on the final plan
Any questions on this item
I've got a comment
I think when this came before us this is the parcel that's
back behind
7-eleven that's going to be the daycare center. We had a
lot of discussion about
I believe there were a couple options that were given to
them correct either a curb
Is that addressed in this it's addressed in the building
permits with the site plan and it affects a
Landscape area curbed area on this side of the fire so it's
not on this but it's in correct. Okay. Thank you
We'll go ahead and close out the plots first we have a
final replant for our shrimp edition
And I'm going to ask Julie to go ahead and present that
before we dive into
All right, since this is a since this is a replat it does
have to have a public hearing per the Texas local
government code
So we'll be going over this in the public hearing but this
is a replat of the
Ashram edition a lot one block a that
They're taking in some unplatted property in order to
construct a shade structure so they can have yoga classes
outside
Any questions on this item this is not enough in our deck
it is it should be but it's a public hearing
That's why it's in it's further on in your packet. Okay
But I wanted to close out the plot since we were talking
about them
Any questions?
Thank you, Julie
Just for the
Commission's edification we do have an item that has been
continued to November 4th meeting and that's the public
hearing
To address procedural and government standards for the
razor ranch development overlay district. So that is being
postponed and with that the next item that we have before
us is to discuss
the
Dent City of Denton's mobility plan
I believe PS is here to make that presentation or his
representative
Okay
Do you
If someone would come to the podium so that if the
Commission has any questions we can address those
I
Good afternoon Commission Jeff Whitaker
The presentation we plan to give in a public hearing is
very similar to the presentation that you saw at the last
September 16th meeting I believe so we weren't going to re-
give the presentation to you guys again now, but if there's
any questions
from the Commission we would
Like to hear those before I recognize anybody
We've had a couple of emails today. Would it be appropriate
staff to
Talk about those at this time or wait till our public
hearing tonight
Since this is a work session that addresses these items. It
is appropriate to bring these up. Okay, great
I think Commissioner Beck
I guess my
one question I have anyway is are we
approving this is going forward after tonight if we approve
this I mean because
As these two lit well at least one letter raised a concern
One makes me look a little deeper. So are we in effect
going to approve this and it's going to move forward or and
if it moves forward
Do we have other opportunities to say wait a minute, you
know
I think the short answer we're looking to move forward to a
council public hearing
If there are comments that are received now between now and
the council public hearing we can entertain and address
those so there's an issue
There that people are concerned about
And we got those emails and we have looked at them and we
can we can discuss those in this work session as well
Okay, so we're not locking into something here that's going
forward
We're not going to change any UI shape or form. Yes, we are
. Yeah
It's actually on the agenda for tonight under item 5a is a
public hearing where you can take action on it tonight.
Okay
If you feel like what the information you have is
inadequate or enough then you you can you know exercise
your right to postpone it but
Sure
Commissioner Dudowitz
I'm with Larry. I'm not comfortable yet to make and this is
just me speaking, but we do have three new
Commissioners here that and I've been through a couple of
these presentations and I'm still kind of confused and
It's very it's been very vague and I see drawings
streets that are I
Can't tell from this the detail and I'm very uncomfortable
To take a vote to pass of the City Council that I'm still
not sure what we're proving
I haven't asked that question
What is our role and what are we doing and we're supposed
to be approving something that I'm not sure what I'm appro
ving
And so I'm going to suggest that we either get in get more
detail and or have other meetings on this
But I'm not comfortable
With the scope of this and the vagueness of it all it's and
we got you know
Two emails today with detail that I'm wondering where they
got that detail from because I haven't been exposed to it
And is a you know as a as a commissioner here, where do I
have to go to get it?
It seems that we're responsible for looking and searching
for this data and it's not there
I mean I got a map that's similar to that and I spent three
weeks looking at it and I defy anybody to tell me
What this means and we got some nice colored pictures and
we got some lines half the streets aren't labeled
And I don't know if what a second arterial is and what's
that design what's a primary
It's it's for me. It's just still still too vague and too
conceptual to
Suggest there should be a vote to take the city council.
Okay. I appreciate your comments
I think I'd ask staff to maybe give us some
Refresher on what the mobility plan is that it's not set in
stone that it is a more of a concept
Plan and I'd like to ask them to clarify some of those and
maybe shed some light on some of the questions
That will be part of the presentation today when the
presentation is done. I'm sorry. I'm not
Feeling that well, I've been out of country and so I put
that to Jeff to do the presentation today
He will go through the presentation. It is still a
And what you see on the map
Is going to be a schematic in some ways
It is going to be that way. It's not possible to put all
the detail on a street on
That scale a map for individual streets. There's no way to
do that
What you have is the base map that is already been there
for
15 years
What we are doing is adding to it
which is the
Hills of Denton and some of the other MPCs and then also
some of the other areas which have been
annexed into the city
We have added some streets in those areas. So what we are
doing is just addition of some streets and the
MPCs that have already been approved and the road layout
has already been approved that has been added to the
schematic
primary arterials secondary arterials
Collector streets we have cross sections on those in our
criteria manual as to what each one of those
look like
six lanes four lanes
Two lanes with turn lanes, etc. They're in the criterion of
the details of those
Are those schematics?
In set in concrete or they just okay. Here's what we're
thinking about. No, sir
Those are already in the criterion manual. We are not
making any changes to those
They're already there. They've been there since the 2000.
Okay
Follow up please because I remember within that
conversation that one of the
commissioners suggested that there's a median in there, but
it's as wide as a as a
as a
24 foot wide right away, but is standard and
That's a standard I'll let Jeff talk about that and as to
why the medians are why
There's two things one is the cross section the design menu
. We're not looking to change
We're looking at if you will for this for what you're
proving today is we're looking at lines on a map to obtain
right away to build
Roadways a cross section design change would be a different
process than this
But the reason of 24 foot is there and that's probably on
the primary material is to accommodate two left turn lanes
for dual left turn lanes
So there is a standard behind that
But that's not something we're looking at changing the
standard with this with this motion today
Another question on this map that we have. How do we
distinguish what was proved prior and what's new?
On the map anything that's highlighted in yellow or pink is
new
It's been either updated. It's updated in yellow or pink is
new
Okay, I believe it
Yellow and what please pink pink. Okay. I'm looking here.
So we got a lot of yellow and pink
But again, you know, we're looking at a street that comes
into a street without a name
I mean, I like to know what those names are so I could kind
of look at a visual or map to see it makes
Make sense. So this yes, and we do have that in one
presentation. We had a table that outlined all the new
streets and upgrades and the realignments
I'm suggesting all the streets that touch these these new
updates is not are not listed on here nor in there
Okay, we we have that we have some maps that show all the
alignments and maps that we've previously gone through
You have that for this evening we do we have rollout plots
and all the information that's been previously presented
the previous meetings
We do have all that information and there's tables
available for all the the details that you want that are
attached in the previous
presentation
Before I recognize them I
Think I heard at the beginning of this you said you weren't
prepared to make a presentation
You were just going to wait and do that in public
I'd just like to kind of open it up here for some feedback
from the commissioners. Would you all like to try to open?
The presentation and talk about possibly the very final map
to propose mobility plan that's going to show some news and
maybe address some
of these questions or if we're
Uncomfortable enough this evening that we don't think we're
going to take action
There's no need to spend in the time to do that. Can I get
some some feedback?
Just for clarification pretty much what the chairman said
is this more a concept?
It's not chipped in stone. This is
General planning principles on thoroughfare planning is
that alignment can move?
Generally the rule of thumb is you're connecting point a to
point B and the exact alignment will take bonnie bray for
example
That's a currently plan that's being designed and going
through a schematic
And the idea was they were going to get for point a point B
when the engineering the 30% engineering was done
They actually figured how to do it. The thoroughfare plan
is basically to identify
We're getting from this point to this point and generally
rule thumb
You don't modify your thoroughfare plan if you're changing
within a thousand feet
That's a general rule thumb so that alignment can move a
thousand feet
We try to match it as close as we thought it could be at
this time, but that doesn't mean it's not
Yeah, to add to that so you actually there are routing
studies actually done when it what is designed
So at that time when the full engineering is done
The engineer would actually go out take a look like all the
Properties that you have to cross what is the best way to
cross them?
What is what property are actually available that can buy
the right away, so this is not a fixed alignment
That will happen actually when the design is done
Then it gets fixed then they go out they engage the right
away people
They go out and talk to the property owners, and that's how
the alignment gets fixed at that time
Okay, so again when we vote tonight. We're just saying okay
Let's move forward with it, but we're not saying these are
the roads that are going to be cut
This is what we're going to do definitely
Yes, this is just a
representation of how
Overall the schematic looks like okay
Let me specifically the one concern this guy wrote in about
you know is what kind of raised my eyebrows and to the
whole thing
But I mean if there is
some
resentment by the public or a group of people cutting a six
-lane road through a wildlife preserve
I mean is there a mechanism in place where we could you
know
This or come up with something else I think we have a
Actual slide that Jeff will be able to show you it is
really not cutting through a wildlife preserve
There's actually a road already out there at this time and
what we are doing is we are using the same road
It's just going to be expanded a little bit. The road is
already there
It's going to be a primary arterial right yes, but it is
not really going into any of the ESA areas
Okay
Just real quickly in your statement here you say some
streets that are primary arterials
Supposedly downgraded to second arterials
Also some streets are supposed to be downgraded
Then you're going from secondary to primary
Can you name what are some of those streets that are going
to? Commissioner Beck?
Can I may I interrupt first and thank you chair and make a
suggestion perhaps?
We're kind of jumping all around here, and we have an hour
before our
Regular session we don't have a very heavy agenda once we
start and so I'm wondering maybe
To clarify and stay on track and ask these questions
Maybe in a more organized manner if we could see the
presentation and then and these are all very good questions
But if we could lay it all out see the presentation and
then ask the questions when they come up perhaps it would
kind of help
Clarify and answer other questions about people might be
holding on to can I would that be okay?
That's a great idea. I think before we move on that I want
to ask staff a
Clarification or procedure question we've got two other
items on our work session
Yes, and maybe before you know I open the floor to get some
feedback before we
Get a presentation
Maybe it would be appropriate for us to at least cover the
two other items we have on our work session and get those
Out of the way, and then whatever time we have left we can
devote to
Trying to address this mobility
Some these mobility questions that be appropriate staff. I
would suggest that I didn't mean to cut you off
Well no, I appreciate what you say because that's really
what I was going right we need more time
To that that we had
presentation to the mobility committee and to the council
both
As we brought this to you we had a buy-in from the mobility
committee as well as from the council
To move forward that the way
The overall mobility plan is now proposed with the changes
so
Just want to flag you that you know we already have done
that
So this is the next step here to go to the public hearing
then we want more public hearing that with the council
level
I think we're gonna at this point
We're gonna table this discussion and we're gonna move to
these two and when we call you back up
I think we would like to have you be prepared to make your
presentation
I think a lot of the questions that are being asked are
going to be addressed with the proposed mobility plan
So maybe if we can pull that up when you come up. I think a
lot of these questions may be able to be addressed so
With that just as a matter of clarification with the record
we are not tabling the item
We're postponing it to the end of the work session. Thank
you for the clarification
Thank you, mr. Chair
I'm going to ask Julie Wyatt to come forward and make a
presentation
Regarding a definition and use for assembly halls to the
Denton Development Code
Been trying to get sick so I might be off
I'm Julie Wyatt associate planner with the city of Denton
and I am presenting
Some information on assembly halls to you. It's a proposed
addition to the Denton Development Code
So in the past year or so staff has received some inquiries
that regarding the ability to develop
Facilities that would accommodate private functions such as
weddings meetings banquets
in more non-commercial or rural areas and
And particularly recently we had one where they wanted to
do a farm on the west side of town
But and with a wedding facility that was that was
Accessory to that but it's an NNR 2 zoning district and
that doesn't permit that use
And so and so but we think it's you know, it might be a
really good idea for the area
So when we looked at it, we realized the DDC really doesn't
have a definition that
Accurately describes this activity and this activity can
include catering
Alcohol sales for on-site consumption or live or recorded
music. So for once again like weddings or some sort of
private event
We look we typically apply two different uses to that one
being restaurant
Which isn't really accurate and the other being semi public
halls clubs and lodges
Which really isn't accurate because that really applies to
not-for-profit entities
So we don't really just have a good definition that that
encompasses all these activities
So when we discussed it
We thought of two options that we could move forward with
one would be to revise an existing definition and the other
would be to
create a new use
So let's look at the first option it would be to revise an
existing definition and that would be the definition of
semi public halls
Clubs and lodges the DDC defines that as a structure
facility owned or operated for special educational or
recreational purposes
But not primarily for profit or to render a service that is
customarily carried on for gain
So when you break down that definition the first part of it
the structure facility owned or operated for special
educational
Recreational purposes that does encompass the the specific
activities that would be associated with an assembly hall
However, when you look at the second part that limits it to
the not-for-profit
entities
so so these these these applicants who are coming to us, we
really just didn't have something to
To to apply to what they're wanting to do
And so the first option would be to propose this definition
to remove the semi public add in assembly halls
For for the use and then to remove the second part of the
definition which would be the not-for-profit
So it would broaden who could use it. So for-profit
entities could use it
The second option would just be to put in a new use in the
development code
In the use tables and in the definitions a proposed
definition would be a building or pump building or portion
of a building
In which facilities are provided for civic educational
political religious or social purposes
So when we look at the use tables for these proposed uses
We're really looking at mimicking what's existing in the
Denton Development Code for semi public halls clubs and lod
ges
As I've said those those activities that are associated
with that use
Really are the same thing that would be associated with an
assembly hall, but it does have that not-for-profit
Component to it. So we're really just mimicking what's
already in the Denton Development Code
So for the rural districts that would not be permitted in
RD5, but would be permitted in RC
for the neighborhood residential zoning districts, it would
be
Permitted with an SUP in districts 1 NR1 through NR6
it would have a limitation in NRMU 12 and then permitted in
NRMU and
Then be permitted by right in in the downtown districts the
community mixed use districts the regional mixed use
districts
the employment centers and the industrial centers
So the discussion and what I'm posing to you tonight is
when staff really looks at at a
potential code amendment to allow for assembly halls
We're really leaning toward the the revising the existing
use it already encompasses the activities
it's already embedded within the use tables and it really
is just
just
broadening it to allow for
for-profit entities, but we wanted to get your feedback on
it and then see if you had any other adjustments to
To what I've presented to you tonight and see if you had
any other comments
Commissioner Bruegel. Thank you chair Julie. Can you please
go back to the first definition that you were suggesting?
Just want to look at that again
Okay, and then the second definition again
Okay, so my question is
Regarding gentlemen's clubs, right and though I might
disagree with the definition of a gentleman while we're
talking about gentlemen's clubs
I'm wondering if we might be opening the door for something
like that to be put on the outskirts of town. What are the
limitations?
Surrounding let me get my use to because I because I
understand like we're looking at something for like a
wedding reception
I'm all for that. Let's talk about that
But I just want to want to be clear are we opening the door
for other uses that might not be
Let me get my receptionist reception halls
They're actually part of this
Okay, they're part of a zoning class of sexually oriented
businesses. Okay, you precluded in most
Use classifications. Okay
Yes, we do have a use for that okay, so those are
specifically defined defined in the TTC. Okay. Thank you
Commissioner Roselle. Thank you chair
along with Commissioner Burgles point is this potential for
like
amphitheaters or like concert venues
I'm thinking about noise if they're able just to
Public use and close to neighborhoods if there's any
limitations in code that would have a decibel requirement
or
We did we did look at that because that was a concern that
we had for particularly the neighborhood residential zoning
district
But it does have that extra layer of the specific use
permit
So, you know the specific use permit is a use that may be
permitted in that zoning district
provided that it can meet certain criteria for approval or
may have additional conditions, so
conditions could be put on the use for the hours of
operation for noise limits for
the duration of the use you could put a
You could say this use is only permitted for five years and
you'd have to come back
So there are conditions we can put on it that would ensure
compatibility with the neighborhood. Okay. Thank you. Sure
clarification
Commissioner dead always when you said the SUP does the SUP
request have to come through us? Yes
Okay, so then to public here would have the ability to
Question it Commissioner Huntsman. So just
By way of example
the Martin Luther King Center there does quite a bit of
All that what is their classification?
that is that
That's a public part
Not sure part part of the MLK Center is parkland it's also
community service use
Community service is permitted in numerous
If I can clarify a little bit
just to go back to
Commissioner Rizal you mentioned amphitheater
We've evaluated the schedule of uses the uses that are
permitted
In our zoning ordinance in our Denton Development Code
Amphitheater for example was one of the issues we looked at
how much open air what are we talking about?
What about noise that use is specified and the parameters
of that definition do not fit into this definition
So you can automatically through process of elimination neg
ate that we also have another use called
Judy Sophia, I'm sorry. What was that use again? It just
major event entertainment that has parameters on
The occupancy with that as well the specific use permit in
this instance would allow you to place further parameters
on your occupancy load
On how much outdoor activity you could have?
Noise we do have a noise ordinance that is in place as well
let's take an example if a
banquet hall and I mean or an assembly hall came in in the
neighborhood residential district you have a large
residential subdivision and
As part of their amenity center they have this use so that
communities the community can utilize it
The specific use permit would also come into play that
would then further condition
the use of that site
We also have civic centers
That Sophie just mentioned and those uses are again defined
separately in terms of the city's functions in the city's
uses and
Again, those are limited under different parameters as well
. So this specifically is being proposed to accommodate
in commercial districts in residential districts depending
on the zoning you're looking at to allow a
Structure that could accommodate for instance a wedding and
associated with the wedding you would have for a band as an
example
Or you have a very large
Property that has green space and you wanted to use that
utilize the outdoor component
To accommodate a wedding for example and have an outdoor
band
But again the ordinances that exist would apply to those
uses
Yes, sir, yeah sure that I
Think I understood that but my only my only example is and
I guess I'll get to the to the just of it
shift down the street the
Legion Hall the Legion Hall does everything you touched on
currently under the current northern they have a church
that meets there
It's rented out every weekend for private parties. It's
used as a community building. So why do we need to change
it?
I guess that's what I'm saying
If what what is wrong with the ordinance now that all that
's going on in that building that would not apply to a
private building
What am I missing the definition limits it to a not-for-
profit? I think I understand what you're saying
People rent it and they're not you know, because it's gonna
be a facility that's rented by private entity
That's not that is you know, and we may not be aware that
it's being rented for that
Do you see so the use is that they're conducting out of
that facility?
May not fit the definition yet. They might do that
For profit as you're saying but more than likely
It is our assumption that those uses that do occur out of
facilities that we know are for non-profit
Are for not profit as the definition reads or intended to
be in that manner
clarification or that was
We have to go back and look at the definition of what is
profit nonprofit if the organization
Is filed as a nonprofit then they can take revenue into
offset costs at the end of the year
In the gates and there's a definition for that. So
We have to understand that in the in their definitions of
profit nonprofits not by individual events
It's by that entity and how it files its taxes, right?
Commissioner Tyler, thank you chair
So I'm trying to think of an example now of something in
the city that might fall under this use and Civic Center
Is a city property MLK centers city property
the you know the
American Legion and those are all
nonprofits churches, they're all nonprofits TWU and UNT
both can rent halls
State organizations that are exempt from zoning. So and I
guess we we used to the Radisson used to have an
Attached use but it would be secondary to the hotel. So we
really right now don't have any privately owned
Like event centers or conference centers or anything. Is
that what about Ashton Gardens?
It's a wedding venue off I 35. I believe that's in current.
That's current
But it's a similar. Yes. Well, I've got one to just throw
out
How would for example like in some of the larger
developments that have like an amenity center or
How would these that are in a residential area can those
now be rented out for this or not?
With an SUV. Okay. Okay. Any other questions?
I'll be back
I just commissioner has been yes, sir. Thank you. I
Just need I guess I don't get it
Is this is a short answer and the longer answer is if I'm a
business owner and you're giving me a whole bunch of moving
Parts then I don't want to invest because I'm in the
business of
hosting parties every weekend
Every hour on the hour and I don't want to come in front of
the council every week to get the okay, you know
I mean, I just don't know
Maybe I'm missing it and then I'll concede that but I'm
gonna ask to give you a clarification on the issue
If I could jump in an SUP it would just be a well, it
depends on how it's structured
But it would they would get approval from the count from
the council for either a limited amount of time or a
specified amount of time
So they wouldn't have to come once a week
It would be for their their a duration a long duration that
they would be there and it would only be
On what we discussed it would only be in the residential
districts
The the commercial districts it would be permitted by right
so downtown they could do it
You know on the loop in commercial districts they could do
it but in a residential area we would want to have a little
more
Scrutiny on it to make sure that it did
Was compatible with the existing development pattern and
the the existing land uses
So but as you P they wouldn't have to come every time they
had an event just for the use for the duration
I don't know if I'm saying that I don't know if I'm correct
Okay
Thank you, by way of example on Lilliam Miller there's the
Yes, what is there? What is their duration of their SUP?
They don't have an SUP
It actually is a bed and it's a non-conforming use and it's
actually considered a bed and breakfast
It was developed under a plan development prior to the
develop prior to the adoption of the current didn't
development code
So that type of use would be permitted depending on which
zoning district
They were in either by right or with the approval of a
specific use permit
The intent of the specific use permit is if we're looking
at residential areas or let's take the existing site that
you just mentioned
Let's assume the zoning was that required an SUP
But we know what the surrounding land uses are that would
allow us to conduct an analysis to determine that it is not
detrimental to the existing land uses that are already
established in the area as an example
Okay
Thank you
Any other questions on this item?
We'll move on to
Receive a report on the didn't development code
requirements for getting to use
Yes, I'm sorry we back it commissioner Taylor so
From what I'm hearing it sounds like everybody's okay with
a single
Modified existing definition
We don't think we need to split them from a non to have a
non-profit definition and a for-profit definition. Is that
is that correct?
I'm fine with not splitting it
So am I do we need a vote or how does this get no we will
now want now that we've got the nod
We'll proceed with actually conducting the public hearing
to amend the DDC to incorporate the revised definition
But not tonight not tonight, so we'll be able to talk about
this some more
Yes
Is that what anything else you need on this particular item
?
Okay, we'll then move on to item B
Julie I'll stay here
All right
So a few months ago you had a case come before you that was
going to be a gated community
And there were some current concerns and questions
regarding connectivity and other
Facilities that were associated with gated community
so we just wanted to bring this back and talk to you about
what's in the DDC regarding gated communities and and then
Ask answer any questions we can for you
So we'll start with the definition of a gated community sub
chapter 23
Defines that it is a subdivision or housing development
with two or more dwellings with private streets controlled
through the use of a
vehicular or pedestrian gate
So when a
Gated community when we look at it from a staff level and
then at P&Z. It's it's typically through the plat
we
The requirements for gated communities are in sub chapter
16 of the Denton development code
and so a lot of the issues that come up with gated
communities are
Are reviewed during the platting process?
So we'll just go over the main things that you're gonna see
on a plat as they relate to a gated community
First of all the streets. I know connectivity was a was an
important question
If a gated community only has one access point
For the public the code requires that they provide a second
access point for emergency vehicles only
So that is one that they need to have the two access points
one
For the people who live there and then one for the
emergency vehicles
I believe Commissioner Taylor. This is one of your
questions regarding a recent recent case the turnaround
There is a turnaround that's required. It is within the
right-of-way
But it is it has to be maintained by the HOA and it's
outside of the perimeter gate
So it would be something that someone if they didn't gain
access that they could turn around and get back on the
public street
So that is a requirement of our gated communities
the streets are
privately owned and maintained but they are designed
To the requirements of public streets in the city of Denton
But the HOA does own those streets and they do maintain
them
And then connectivity and I want to look at my notes
So there is a provision within a sub chapter 16 regarding g
ated communities and gate and connectivity
Gated communities shall not be allowed to obstruct any
existing arterial street or proposed arterial street as
shown in the city mobility plan
so they're not allowed to
to
Create a situation where they're going to reduce
connectivity when it comes to the mobility plan
furthermore
They cannot negatively affect vehicular or pedestrian
traffic circulation on public streets
They can't impair access to the property to the subdivision
or to act or access to or from public facilities and that
includes schools
Parks and libraries or the response time of the emergency
vehicle
So they do need we do need to make sure that the
connectivity is is not reduced and that we are aware of
that
That issue when it comes to gated communities
Just briefly
Water and wastewater those are located within
Underneath the streets so the streets are privately owned
and maintained
But they are required to dedicate a public utility easement
on top of those streets so that water and wastewater can be
located in those streets
it's also important to note that they are dedicated to the
city and so if a repair needed to be done the city would
potentially go under the street and
and
To repair the line if they did have to repair the street
the city would repair the street
In accordance with city standards and on the low cost
estimate and
If there were any design
Requirements that the that the neighborhood had that the g
ated community had that were above and beyond what the city
Guidelines were that the city would not put the street back
like that. The HOA would then have to take care of it
So if there was some sort of brick pattern on the street or
some other
Design element of the streets the city wouldn't necessarily
wouldn't put that back to HOA would be required to put that
back
Does that make sense? Okay
Electric facilities same thing
They are owned by electric company if they did if the city
had to get in or had to repair that
And then then the city would repair the streets
But but to what the city standards are
the access gates
Fire the fire chief is required to have access to any any
Codes or key pads in order to get into the property
they also the access gates also have to accommodate a fire
truck and
And be allowed that ingress and egress
the
Postmaster and the wet water wastewater the streets also
have access to the property
Just in case they need to get in there and then the post
office would obviously need to get in there as well as
solid waste
Here's a picture of
Agated community that's in existence in the city of Denton
Tuscan Hills, Tuscan Hills
And the most important thing on HOA is when you're talking
about all these public facilities is the HOA and I think we
We discussed it earlier this evening. They are required
within a gated community
during the final plat the
Applicant is required to provide those HOA documents for us
to look at
Because we want to make sure that there are a couple of
things in those HOA documents first the power to
To file a lien or foreclose on the property. We want to
make sure they get paid so that the facilities can be
maintained
Provide for the maintenance of any of those common areas
and privately held facilities and
The Denton Development Code does require that they cannot
be dissolved without City Council approval
So if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them
questions I
Have one
Excuse me Commissioner Hudson. Yeah, and I'll be brief. I
just want to
Bookmark here. I want to come back
later and talk about
Disputes I'm concerned about litigation for if we repair a
road. They say it's not prepared repaired
Correctly, there's there's some sort of disputes there that
could come about and also
It strikes me as odd that you need a deposit to get your
utilities turned on but we're going to give
HOA streets with no bond or no requirement of
Money and so my concern the city ends up having to pay for
something and then go through
Foreclosure processes which ultimately may never result in
Recovering those lost dollars for whatever that whatever
started the litigation so, you know due to bankruptcy this
that or the other
So that's my concern, but we I'll save it for later, but I
do want to just earmark that
Okay
anybody else
I've got one question on this then
You addressed it somewhat on item three and five you've got
lease costs and I understand that
For the example you have up they have stamp concrete or pa
vers there
Does the city pay what?
The lease cost portion would be and then the HOA has to pay
on top or how does that?
Okay
That was my only anybody else Commissioner Briegel
Julie how many gated communities does Denton currently have
not counting the one that we just approved
I believe we have two we have Tuscan Hills and Robes and
ranch
Allison Park, is there another one?
T's Lee. Oh, okay. Sorry. Okay
And I'm kind of curious. So when people pay
HOA fees in one of those gated communities it goes not only
towards like it ropes and ranch for example
They've got that the golf course and they've got the
recreation facility and these beautiful amenities down
there
But the the HOA fees that they would pay also would go for
road maintenance and such yeah
Because those are privately maintained roads, correct? Okay
I'm curious what other because I'm not a part of an HOA so
when people pay an HOA fee in a neighborhood
That's not in a gated community. Where did those HOA fees
go? They're not going to street maintenance because those
are public roads
Well, if we have if there were open space if there was any
drainage facilities that were if there was a
Detention pond that was in that neighborhood then the HOA
fees would go toward maintaining that
In any other amenities that the HOA had
So if they
If an HOA were to fold
Who would then be responsible for
Those roads at that point
Would that be that would be for I'm gonna jump in make a
comment
We have a lot of discussion about the roads the roads are
put in for city specs
The developer pays for them and puts them in just like if
they are non HOA
The difference is the HOA is maintaining something that
otherwise the city would be maintaining
So the city in my opinion gets a benefit that the developer
pays for it puts it in and then is willing to maintain
Something and if the city gets it back then guess what?
They're now on the hook to maintain a street that the
private individual were paying for
Whereas a rather regular public street put in the same
specs. The public is paying for it from day one
so I don't see the
Concerns about that the HOA is somehow getting off the hook
But they're kind of carrying the note for the city as long
as they're in
Functioning and the city gets it back after being taken
care of and paid for by HOA for however long that is
Well, I certainly didn't mean to
Sorry if my question came off that way that I was accusing
HOA's of getting off the hook
I just I sincerely want to know if an HOA were to fold and
they've been maintaining these roads this whole time
Then that financial burden would then come back to the city
and they finally have to start paying for it
Okay, well the common areas
I'm also curious are are do are there other cities that you
are aware of that don't allow gated communities?
And if so, what are there?
What are there I'm just I'm
Sincerely curious about this. Yeah, no, they're across the
board. Yeah, okay
I'm done now
Thank you Mr. Gatowich in my life experience I have lived
in
17 different homesteads. I have lived in HOA's gated and
non gated communities and your questions are well founded
The HOA put together a budget
Requiring you know where the funds have to go if they're g
ated their additional funds. I live in an HOA situation now
We maintain common property and our HOA fees are pretty
small as compared to other HOA's that I belong to so it
Just you know, the HOA's got to come up with a budget and
then they assess the homeowners and property owners a
certain percentage of that
They maintain their budget and puts into a kitty
Future use for maintenance issues and in some cases those
can be fairly high HOA fees
But the people going in there know that and they maintain
their funds accordingly. So yeah, I've been there done that
Any other questions on this item?
Commissioner back. Thank you chair in the event that an HOA
does fold
Do we didn't get to go in and tear the gates down? It's no
longer a gated community
Do they essentially lose their rights then they had I would
assume that yes the gate would have to
Any other questions on this item are we gonna look for
We're not leaving any action on this. No, this was purely a
Discussion we presented some facts that are in our dental
development code
The Commission had asked I would think about a month and a
half ago on
What are the parameters and we wanted to provide some
insight to you?
Thank you. I had requested that and I'm very I was very
pleased to see that come up on our work session
So quickly after that request, so thank you for that
Thank you, Julie. I think been whispered to that. We've got
some food if this takes care of this
I'm I think maybe what we'll do if the
Commission entertain this is real break to get food and
then come back for mobility. I did have one
Commissioner Bruegel. Thank you chair. I had a couple of
questions or corrections regarding the minutes
Should we talk about that now or in our regular session?
You want to you want to eat food?
Okay, that's fine. Okay. We're gonna take a recess right
now and and get some food and we'll be back
Thank you, it's 16 618 and we're going to call the work
session back in order to hear continuing on the mobility
report
So what I'm gonna try to do over the next couple minutes is
hit the highlights of the questions
I heard when you're discussing and a lot of this you've
seen before it's the same presentation last time
But one of the things I want to point out is what's your
current existing mobility plan looks like
This is your current existing plan. That's it's really this
is a mobility map. We're doing that's kind of a better way
to say
We're adopting a mobility map, but it's a plan
It's a roadmap to the future and so this is just for some
clarifications and of what it was now as you can see
Some of these are not on here. I'm gonna walk through the
different thought process we have and I'm gonna skip a
couple slides of the stuff that
May not be as important
The first thing we looked at
Was what are the roads are already approved?
That already planned and the reason we want to look at this
is because we want to see how this was going to affect the
network
So these roads in Brown are roads that we added but these
are already planned developments that are approved
That are the master plan communities and they're just the
roads that are on their development plan
so these are
Really not roads that we came up with but we wanted to know
how to connect to these roads because you knew at some
point
In time in the future these roads are good logical places
to connect the outside network with
And so basically we're matching already planned roadways
The second item is we looked at where new ways are new road
ways would go and these are the purple roads
We basically were looking at the map and finding areas
where connections could occur
connectivity is one of the things that you'll notice is as
you start building out your network one is what's the one
the best ways to
Improve mobility is connectivity
So we started looking for how to connect existing roads
those future MPC roads and get them on the map
and so the purple roads are
New roadways that we have identified and these most of
these areas are future growth areas. There are a few
Infill areas to increase connectivity
Commissioner Bruegel, thank you chair. Are these these
proposed new additions?
Those are all going to be city maintained roads and not
text out roads. Is that correct?
These are all proposed city maintained roads. So is there
So like the the future completion of loop 288 wouldn't be
included on this
But it was it was taken into consideration during the it
was taking it we took into consideration text out roads
I believe all the new roads that we identified on here
On this purple map or not text out facilities, but the text
out roads are considered the mobility plan because the
arterial network of text
That's a is the skeleton of Denton's mobility network
Do you have a map perhaps where you have like an overlay of
the proposed or projected?
Completion of 288 so we can see kind of how it
matches up
Let me see
This is the mobility map
The mouse so here's 288 and
After it gets to 380 it doesn't it's not
It's no longer kind of a freeway type of facility on the
west side
It just turns into more of your primary arterial kind of
your Boulevard section as opposed to access manage section
And it follows through down to through Jim Crystal down to
2449
And like we talked about earlier, we looked at the
alignment
We looked at avoiding some of the gas wells in the area,
but when that when the when the project actually
Becomes a reality and people start studying alignment
Engineering will get survey out there and start looking at
where that roadway goes
but this is based on our aerial photography and some other
contours we have and
Gaswell locations of where we'll put the location so it
ties into to 2499 and comes back around
And on the other side, it's pretty much there already. I
mean
So it doesn't quite loop all the way around
Comes into vintage on the other side back to 377
Well 288 ever I'm sorry. Yeah, well the loop ever make a
complete loop or is it just gonna be like that horseshoe
shape
From which time right now it looks like a horseshoe shape.
Well, I mean you can follow it around as a little but it's
course
Commissioner Dadowitz
Follow up I was under
Wow, I was someone had mentioned to me that
Mayhill will become part in parcel the loop 288 and
Loop 288 will be renamed Lily and Miller
is that something I misheard or
because of the
the loop is not necessarily the loop as we envisioned it
way back when because of all the
Entrances and exits of commercial property there. I'll have
to stop the city staff. I hadn't heard that
Mayhill actually runs parallel to loop 288. So may have
will be a separate road primary or trail by itself
It's not going to replace loop 288 loop. We're going to
will stay as it is will be still be named loop 288
Yes, sir. Okay, and the may have it is maintained by text
not which is
288 may have will be a city on Street. Okay, may Hill is a
city on Street. Yes
I want to make a comment
From my limited development experience one of the
advantages of us going ahead and doing this as as
properties are developed in the future
When these are shown then a developer has to make allotment
for it only the right-of-way, but also pay for their share
So it's advantageous to us as a city to look down the road
and and try to plan as much as we can
So as things develop it shifts some of the burden from city
to developers. Is that correct?
And that is very true and you know when we do the impact
fees
The impact fees are going to take care of some of the
payments that have to be made for the right-of-way, etc
So that would be the next step when we come back at you,
okay
Just took a bite Commissioner Rose. Thank you. Can can you
forgive me for any ignorance?
I am a new commissioner. So I haven't heard the
presentation before
kind of the first
Couple days looking at this. Can you help me out and talk
about how the future land use?
that's been approved by the city goes into the
development of the mobility plan
Absolutely. What we did is we generated a computer model.
The city's had water and wastewater models for years
They haven't had a transportation model a lot of times it's
been lying on the map
So one of the big tasks of this was to actually see are we
planning it appropriately are the number of lanes?
We're putting out there appropriately is the connectivity
appropriately
So we took the future land use map that you're looking at
and we populated into our community
Model to project how much traffic is going to be generated
based on what's approved in the comprehensive plan. I
Appreciate the answer. My specific concern is actually echo
ed by one of the individuals that emailed in is the Far East
Proposed primary art material which is looks like post oak
Accredits origination
dissects rural zoning
From just south of McKinney up just north of 380
That area on the future land use is all rural and I'm
having a tough time getting my mind around how a potential
six lane road
Would help continue the development or future land use of a
rural zoning
Right
One of the things to answer your question is we were
looking at a connectivity of connecting Sherman Road to
this to
Down to the south through post oak and one of the things we
're looking at was right away
And so we you're not going to go build a six lane road when
the demands not there
So what we were trying to obtain is the right away in that
area for the potential to build it
And if the right away is there you can only get right away
one time and a lot of times one of the comments in
The email was about bike
Accommodation that becomes a popular bike route and if we
get the right away
Of a primary material if it never develops that way because
this has to be studied every five years
And so we went with that approach. We are looking for
comments tonight. And so the approach of of north of say 3
80 or mingo
you're talking about if we need to reevaluate that as maybe
a
Secondary arterial four lane facilities a six lane facility
That is one of the comments we're looking for we got his
email
You know, we'd be interested in hearing the Commission's
opinion on that particular roadway
So well, I'll make a comment about it. I think it's very
advantageous
I'd much rather see us if it's reasonable to
Plan for larger roads rather than smaller roads
I think we all have experienced enough of the issues that
we currently have in our city with smaller roads and the
inability to get around
When you go over east of here to the fast growth areas
little elm Frisco and you drive out there and there's four
and six
Lane roads and you can just take off and go from one side
of town to the other
I would love to see that being here in our city of Denton
to be able to get around
Versus what we currently have of trying to keep everything
small and then we don't have the option to come back later
on and make
The roads larger so I'm supporting maybe being a little
wider a more right away and a little more flexibility than
smaller for future growth
Commissioner Roselle, I appreciate your insight and
understanding the right away the potential to move greater
the future land
Map is for the next 15 years, so I'm not sure what's gonna
grow to the half the next 15 years
But I guess in trying to think about forward-thinking
zoning if we have on the books and approval for a primary
arterial
specifically just south of McKinney
Where I know last board meeting or commission meeting
someone came in and wanted to put a tracked home
neighborhood that's zoned as rural
But we had it we rezoned it for it in our for I'm wondering
if it sets a dangerous precedent that when he comes back
for plating
Although the the platyp potentially doesn't line up with
the world's zoning what we already have in the books of
primary arterial
So it's very hard for us to defend the future land use of
being rural if we have in the books that we're planning
In the next so many years that well, it's going to be six
lines anyways
Let's go ahead and approve this in our four subdivision.
Well now we've lost the integrity of the rule zoning in a
whole
So I understand what you're saying about
Owning that right away that at the first time
But I'm also it seems in direct conflict with what we're
wanting to do for the next 30 years
Our next 15 years 2030 in that rural development
Commissioner Taylor
Add to your both of your comments
Often the rural
Use is more of a placeholder. It's not so much that it is
intended to be preserved
perpetually in a rural use
But it is that in the next 10 to 20 years we expect it to
stay rural in character
And so I don't think that we would generally prevent
development in those areas
But we wouldn't necessarily plan for a lot of intensive
development, you know up off of
Up, you know, just south of the dam or in areas like that
So I think I think it's more like for for that 20 year
period not that we must preserve this as rural
Right, but just that we don't expect
the same intensity of development there as we might have
down off Ryan Road or something like that and
As far as I do agree with the chair on
the importance of getting
The plan laid out and making sure that we can get those
The right-of-way the dedication and so forth as we need it.
I do have specific concerns about post oak
I think that you know a better alignment would probably be
Cooper Creek
We don't need a large arterial next to an area that one of
the few areas that will be permanently
Low use low intensity use, you know, it's a large
Can floodplain nature preserve it's never going to have a
high traffic demand in that area
If we move that over half a mile or so to the Cooper Creek
which extends the Mayhill arterial
You know that that provides the parallel connectivity and
and then you can have nice little
Neighborhoods on collectors branching off and they can back
up to the nature preserve
Instead of having a large road that might have a negative
impact along the the nature preserve there. I
Also, I've made this comment a few a few times in the past
and I'll make it again tonight I
there seem to be a
lot a lot of very variance in how many roads and how
intensive the roads are and
What areas have a lot of collectors and what areas seem to
have a tight grid of arterials?
You know, so some of this is master plan like down to the
southwest. That's all master plan. You can't do much
to the northwest
to my knowledge none of that is master planned and
there's a I think a quarter mile a grid there of collectors
and arterials between is that Ganser and
The extension of you know right in that area near crumb
So that's that's one of the kind of most densely laid out
and none of those roads exist
So we're planning for eight new roads in basically a one
mile by one mile square area
You know and then we have if you move over just due north
you have gaps some of that's due to Creek
But it's hard to tell it on this map on the north Bonnie Br
ay and
Then we have large areas
To the northeast where there's just nothing at all
There's two miles with a mile wide area with no roads and I
understand there is a creek in there
And it's not all in the city yet, but we have other roads
that are outside of city limits indicated
so I worry about the
variability in road density and you know layout
In our previous conversations. I was told that
basically an engineer
different engineers took different quadrants of the city
and
Just kind of looked at things like gas wells and creeks and
planned a section of the city
But it seems like there there isn't a lot of consistency in
how the got laid out
Let me clarify that it was not different engineers
What we did was we divided the city into four different
quadrants the same group looked at it. It included the
traffic engineer
people from engineering
our traffic superintendent
People went out drove around and a lot of these guys are
already out on the town all the time
So they know where we have traffic issues and where we have
connectivity issues
So that data came from them, which is a field data that was
then
You know wetted with the model also
When we ran the model, so that's how the overall model came
about
You know to answer one question for you it is not really a
15 year plan
This is a built out condition based on the land use
That has been done by your consultant for the comp plan
amendment. So it takes that fully developed condition
So the traffic generation that you see
That was done from the model is for the full built out
condition
Be that
2050
2070 2100
Based on that land use so there is enough traffic that is
generated that's coming on that road
That it could be sustained by a secondary arterial
But as you know the desire was to keep the primary arterial
by staff also so that we have the right away
In case we need to build a secondary primary arterial there
Thank you
The thought process behind road that has gotten the comment
in email is like I said
We can only get right away one time and so our thought is
is if that did say of rural contents
And you want to have nice bar ditches and some other stuff
to make it kind of that rural feel even if you were right
In the road it takes a little bit more right away to do
that
So even we're unfortunate it's called a principal arterial
primary to mainly to preserve the right away. It's not
necessary
There's no plan to build that road of six lanes right now,
but I mean like I said the the comment of maybe going over
to
Cooper Creek the idea is we want to connect the goal was to
connect mingo somehow to Sherman and
That alignment hasn't actually been studied yet
So we looked at a map and this is what we came up with on
our first stab
But there are other alternatives that should be evaluated
deeper, but it can be moved in the alignment routing study
The plan is to try to get a connection
Thank you before I recognize Commissioner does we're about
five minutes past when we're supposed to start
I think we'll go up to about another five minutes about 640
and then we will have to cut this off and take it back up
So Commissioner Dudowitz. Yeah. Thank you chair. I think
again. This is another reason for
Must be delaying and looking at this in more detail because
again this mayhill issue is a major art
It's going to be what a major tear arterial and it dead
ends on 380 and then it just north of that where Cooper
Creek starts
it's a
Secondary and that would be a primary look at taking that
road right straight up and make it the same six or two four
to six
lanes
It dead ends right at 380 and Cooper Creek right now is a
two-lane country bumpkin Road
Which is just right there is north of that intersection
So I mean that's you know looking at that post oak issue
versus the Copper Creek. I I think
That makes more sense. But as we get into the details of
this we're picking up these little things
We never have had the ability to get into the to some of
these things even though they're conceptual
To give feedback to you to consider other alternatives
Anybody else
I'm gonna make a final comment
From my understanding what most of these are when we have
the the names whether they're primary arterial sector
We're mostly talking about the right away
And the size that we're taking and I know some of our
New commissioners weren't here for the cross sections that
were presented probably a couple two three months ago
Where you all came and made a number of different cross
sections of you could have a two-lane road or a three-lane
road
some of the size of the sidewalks
Bike lanes whether they were included in the street or
whether they were outside the street and so really rather
than
at least my
Interpretation and comment is it mostly they're not
designing streets that this is going to be a six-lane road
It could be but mostly what we're doing is taking a certain
amount size right away
Or what those sections can be and that the appropriate time
in the future as the city continues to develop
the engineering department will then make those
design criteria of whether it's a four-lane road six-lane
road
Pending what the right away is is that a fair assessment of
anywhere?
You're trying to go pretty much on track and one of the
reason we want to build a model
So when development occurs in the rural area we can confirm
and actually put the development that's coming in and
Understand whether it should be the six line or four lane,
but have we know the right away right now
We're taking our our best steps of preserving the right
away that we need great. We feel like we need
So really this isn't actually saying that these roads are
going to be a six-lane road
We're just talking about the right away that we're taking
that we could do up to that
Amount and then the design comes at some point in the
future
Well, I think to answer your question is like definitely
the fringes is true
But if a development was to come in they would look at this
our map
But this is a living document and if someone decides to
analyze at that time
They have the right to change whether it's a four or six
lane based on whatever study that they do correct
Just like what we're doing tonight when we look at this we
have several things from old mobility plans that are being
removed
And now I've been determined they were on the map. We no
longer need them
And so that's the same thing that will ultimately happen
with this at some point in the future and other commissions
look at this down
The road. Yeah, we had several downgrades
That we have downgraded because we the development changed
from what we anticipated or what was anticipated
Great
Anybody else before we wrap up Commissioner Hesford? I
would like to request
Can I get something to read regarding that process of right
away?
That sort of thing how that works. I'm not familiar with
that mechanism
So just a general overview how over right away is work is
it?
Okay, so please sure
It's 640 and we're going to adjourn the
The work session and reconvene in council chambers
Good evening and welcome to the October 21st
2015 planning and zoning meeting for the city of Denton
It is 645
This meeting has been duly posted and we have a quorum
present
Call the meeting to order and we will begin with our pledge
to the US flag followed by the Texas flag
The
First item on our agenda tonight is the approval of the
minutes
We have a motion request to speak
Chair I had a couple of corrections. I wanted to make the
minutes please if I could
Commissioner Bruegel, thank you, sir on page three
line
five
There's
The word not is missing. So for example, it said on the
plaque
It's a
The word not is missing. So for example, it said on the
plat in a grayed-out color to indicate the neighboring
guess
Well, she stated she did see that on this plat. I did
actually not see that on that plot. That's my first
correction
My second one
Is I believe on page nine?
Yeah
on page nine
After lines 26 and 27. I would like it if there could be
something added to the minutes
As we were looking at the believe it was a rezone request
for from rural to NR for and there was
someone who came to the meeting to talk about there was a
gas pipeline that went through there and
Just brought up some more questions. What I wanted to get
added to the minutes, please was that I made
Clarification to the rest of the Commission that what we
were doing was looking specifically at a rezone request and
not the
the
Site plan that had been presented to us because that gas
pipeline at that point would come into play as we're
looking at that
And I just think that was an important omission that should
be reincluded. Thank you
Commissioner Daddowitz, thank you chair. There's an
Missing element to my discussion page two lines 29
through 33 and when and subsequently 34 to 38
when I asked
Staff Earl Escobar with regard to do does anyone on staff
have a liaison relationship with text on?
The answer I believe was no and that is missing here
And then I suggested that we would have a proposed future
meeting possibility with text out to understand
their time and development of various roads within our jur
ors both in our area, especially
Expansion of Teasley and that's not in this
So if we can review that the tapes or whatever I believe
that that was a lengthy discussion, but it's not in the
minutes
Just a clarification both Commissioner Daddowitz and
Commissioner Bruegel
Are you all comfortable with staff making the corrections
to minutes with your comments?
Or do you want to table this until those corrections are
made to bring it back since those are fairly lengthy
comments on both of those
Items regarding my comments. I'm comfortable with that. I
'll leave it to you Commissioner Daddowitz
The having staff make the corrections. Yes, I'll be
comfortable with that. Okay
In that request to speak
Commissioner Taylor with those two corrections. I move we
approve the minutes for our last meeting
Commissioner Rizel, I'll second that
The first and second call for a vote on the board
I
Motion carries 7-0 move us to our consent agenda
Chair would entertain a motion
Commissioner Duddlewood's I move to approve
The consent agenda as posted
Commissioner Beck I second the motion have a first and a
second and call for vote on the board
The motion carries 7-0
Moves us to item 4 items for individual consideration
I
Correct turn this over to an offer introduction of this
item today
Thank You chair chairperson strange if you recall at the
last meeting the PNC had requested that an item be
Placed on the agenda for individual consideration to act on
creation of a subcommittee in order to evaluate city
initiated rezoning
That would be in conformance with the comp plan comp plan
2030
That being said this item is before you to nominate and
appoint members from this commission to serve on this sub
committee
Clarification how many members are we going to be?
Discretionary up to you
You have two motions the first motion would be for the
creation the second motion would be for the nomination in
the election
The request was the Commissioner Tyler. Thank you. Could we
get a little further clarification on?
This is the first time since I've been on this body that we
formed a subcommittee
So we'd have a mode just a motion to create a subcommittee
and then open the floor to nominations
Take nominations and then ratify those nominations. So that
's that's correct. There's no written procedure in our
charter or
Administrative code provision, but we do adopt the Roberts
rules of procedure and those rules
Allow the PNC to establish a subcommittee for these
purposes. There is no rule concerning how many
nominations you may make
But that's the way that we'll probably do it tonight
we'll just go ahead and do the motion whether or not you
want it first created and
That would be voted on and then we would go to an open
discussion of nominations
Commissioner Donald Woods within the nomination process
Can commissioners suggest that they would love to be on
that or like to be on that? So it helps the process
Yes, now you I heard you indicate that there's no set
number
No, but I would recommend I think for the gas we had
usually two people that would go and work together
You know, maybe three if if you're worried about a tie
breaker or whatever
That's my recommendation to you I would have fewer rather
than more
They with staffs input chair would entertain a motion if we
want to look at creating the subcommittee first
Commissioner Taylor I
Move that we create a subcommittee in order to evaluate
city initiated rezoning in conformance with the Denton plan
2030
Commissioner Dudley's I second the motion
Have a first and a second and we'll call for a vote on the
board
I
That motion carries 7-0 since we have now created a sub
committee
We'll now discuss how many members are going to serve
Commissioner Rozelle, thank you chair. I was wondering if
it's possible or allowed by a show of hands to see who
would be
Wanting to serve in this subcommittee just so we know where
nominations can maybe be be levied
Is that possible? Can I request a show of hands if he would
be interested in the subcommittee then? Sure
Show hands who'd like to serve
Commissioner was L. Are you not interested because I'm I'm
just kind of curious
I think you've brought up some really good points about
some some of the rural. No, I sincerely do
I think you brought up some very good points in your time
on the Commission. Would you be interested in serving as
well?
Sure, yes
I'm nominating you
Okay, did we decide the number I was gonna ask I think
before we do the nominations the chair would like to get
Motion or suggestion of the number of persons to serve to
form in this committee
Subcommittee
Commissioner Dudowitz I would recommend that we have three
You make an emotion the motion would be that we create a
subcommittee with three members of this commission, okay
Commissioner Hudson second the motion. Okay. We have a
motion on the floor to have three members appointed to the
subcommittee
Here we will we have a first and a second we will call for
a vote on the board
The motion carries 7-0
Chair is now going to open it for nominations
for three members to serve
Would it be as a clarification from staff? Would it be?
More appropriate to serve. I mean it's to nominate three
people at one time or just to nominate them one at a time.
I
Think it's more appropriate to do it one at a time. We'll
do it one at a time
Commissioner Dudowitz, I I believe my
That's leftover
from my previous request to speak so okay
Commissioner Brigham. Okay. Well, I was gonna make three
nominations, but I'll just do them one at a time. I
Would like to nominate Commissioner Taylor for the sub
committee. I think this this was his initiative. I think he
's got a great eye for it
He's got a good attention to detail and it could be a great
fit
Thank You Commissioner
Will we do these as a
Doom individually then what are these as a motion in a
second and then call for a vote on nominations?
We can in fact that's more clear on the record
But I'm going to leave it up to you whether or not you want
to get three and then just move on the three
Okay, as long as you have a consensus
I'll take the nomination for another subcommittee member to
serve
Commissioner Taylor. Thank you chair. I would nominate
Commissioner Dudowitz to serve as well
Thank you
Commissioner Brigham and I would also like to nominate
Commissioner Roselle. I think in his time on P&Z
He's brought up some really good points about future land
use. I think you'd be a good fit. Thank you
We have three members nominated
Does anybody have another member that they would like to
nominate and then we can
Can look at whether we will do these individually or
whether we will do these as three?
Seeing that we have three members
That are for consideration for our three-person sub
committee the chair would enter a motion
Commissioner Bruegel. Thank you chair. I move approval of
the subcommittee with members commissioners Taylor Roselle
and Dudowitz as the members
Commissioner Beck I second the motion we have a first and a
second. We'll call for a vote on
I
Motion carries 7-0. I
Will move us on to our public hearings
Chair wants to make a clarification. We're going to have
one item. We're going to change the order this evening
We're going to be moving item B
Fr. 15 up to the first item to be discussed
And then item a will become item B. So I'm going to
Okay a point of order we also have a third item for public
hearing if anybody's waiting for this the
razor ranch item C has been tabled at this time
Just to let you know if you are waiting for that item that
has been tabled
With that clarification we will then move on and open the
public hearing for
I'm sorry. This is just a point for the record when you say
table. Do you mean postponed to?
postpone to date certain
Okay
Well a clarification we talked about this earlier do we
need a motion for that or just to state it here on the
record this time
I think that you can state it on the record at this time
We'll stick with what we discussed earlier
We're going to state it that it is going to be continued to
our November 4th
2015 meeting that is a razor ranch item and we will now
move on to item
Fr. 15 - 0 0 2 I'm going to go ahead and open the public
hearing for this item
Thank You chairperson. I'm going to ask Julie Wyatt with
the planning department to make the presentation for the
final replant of
Ashroom addition lot 1 or block a thank you Julie
Good evening. I'm Julie Wyatt associate planner with the
city of Denny
Tonight I'm presenting at fr 1520 Ashroom addition
The request is to consider a right a final replant of the
Ashroom addition
It's a replant of lot 1 block a and they're taking in some
additional unplatted property
Section 212 of the Texas local government code does require
a public hearing for all replants
Here is the plot. This is the this is the original platted
tract. They're adding in some previously unplatted
property in order to
Locate a shade structure in that area
The plot hat does meet the technical requirements of the
Denton development code and staff does recommend approval
of this plot
Any questions for staff
Commissioner Briegel. Thank you chair. I was just curious.
Is this the yoga hut or is this the Denton yoga center? I
Think it's the yoga head. I
Was just curious
The applicant is has no bearing whatsoever on how I'm gonna
judge on this
I just was very curious because they're both right there
Kindali yoga ashroom, okay more yoga is always good
Kundalini, okay. Thanks. I was just curious. Thank you
Now see any other question this is a public hearing is
there anyone here that would like to speak on this side
Anyone that would like to speak on this side
Seeing none we will close the public hearing and the chair
will entertain a motion
Commissioner Beck I move that we approve FR 15 0020
Commissioner Briegel. I'll second that
We have a first and a second we'll call for a vote on the
board
I
Motion carries 7-0
That will move us back to our item
Pz 15 - 0 1 6
We will open the public hearing and ask for staff
presentation. Thank you chair
I'm going to ask Jeff Whitaker to make the presentation on
the city of Denton's mobility plan and provide an update
Good evening Commission. My name is Jeff Whitaker. I'm the
project manager on the didn't mobility plan impact free
study
And I'm with Kimmy Horn associates and I'm gonna give you a
presentation to outline the progress we made and give you
some updates
in the mobility plan
So why are we updating the mobility plan? One is didn't
currently has a mobility plan. It's an existing roadway
network plan
It's a map towards the future as you can see in the map in
front of you
The existing mobility plan consists of a primary major
arterial secondary arterial and collector facilities
That's the current design standards that are adopted within
the city didn't we're not looking at modifying those we're
looking down on
elaborating on this current mobility plan at this time
So why to update the mobility mobility plan one is to
determine the current capacity of the existing streets
That's already used up. We want to know how much of the
capacity of the existing roadway networks used up
I think is you drive around the city
You can kind of take a guess on some of the roads of where
we may need some extra capacity
but we want to actually quantify that we
wanted to add the approved streets are already approved for
the
Approved NPC such as the hills of Denton Coles Ranch and
how to ranch the reason we wanted to do this is we want to
Make sure we were planning how to connect to them in the
future
And if they're on a map we can know how to connect to them
in the future
We also want to look at upgrading downgrading some streets
based on the projected traffic volumes
The I believe the last of the real last thorough update was
done in 2000 to the mobility plan. There's been some
Several minor updates over the last couple years
But we wanted to take a good hard look to see is what we
were planning back in 2000 adequate either too much or too
little
We wanted better realign some of the streets in the
existing mobility plan to improve traffic movement and by
that's really connectivity
We were looking at key locations of the city where there's
opportunities to connect and we want to preserve those
opportunities to connect
Some opportunities if you don't put them on the map they go
away and there's no connection that will occur in the
future
Another one is to develop a build-up condition roadway
network scenario
And one of the reasons we wanted to do this and it was
important this is we're currently going through an impact
fee study
Process and we wanted to make sure that the roadmap we were
using is adequate to support the next five years
And one thing that's important about that state law
requires us to review this mobility plan every five years
Along with the impact fee so every five years we required
this mobility plan
But we can look at it on a weekly basis if we wanted to
every development that comes in we have ability to look at
that
So one of the key components of this mobility plan that
wasn't done in private previous years was the develop of
what we call a trans
CAD model trans CAD is just a software. That's the software
that we use to develop the mobility plan
It's actually the same software that the North Central
Texas Council of Governments the MPO
Uses to run the region-wide model
The reason we wanted to do that is because we wanted our
models to be able to speak to each other in case they ever
needed to and we can share information between the regional
planning Commission and then
So what the model helps us do it helps us to understand the
existing carry capacity of the roadway network
And it also allows us to understand the future carrying
capacity on the roadway network
We calibrated this model
It's one of the tougher steps of our project is we wanted
to make sure the existing model matched close as it could
Within an adopted there's an adopted standard by Federal
Highway Administration that says your mallard your models
adequately calibrated
And the model from didn't is actually meets those standards
Which is not every model you work on we can say that on but
then we were able to say that
Why were we able to do that in some models?
We don't have enough data to do that and then we counted a
hundred and eleven locations and the map you see the black
dots or
locations
One thing to note is text dot roads are not shown on these
locations
That's because text dot maintains their own count system.
We were able to get their data
So we have more than a hundred and eleven locations if you
add in the textile locations
So those existing traffic counts are what we use to calib
rate the model
So that's what we compared our model to what the existing
was and then we looked at the future land use plan
We use the comp plan that was recently adopted in the didn
't 2030 plan and loaded our demographics into the model
network
And projected traffic in the future
So the development of the mobility plan map really came in
three stages on top of the modeling we really looked at as
I mentioned
The master plan communities then we looked to see working
to key new roads
And then we once we had those we ran the model again and
wanted to see where upgrades and downgrades could occur
So as the map in front of you shows the brown roads are the
new roads. These are the master plan community roads
These are simply us just updating the map. They're already
approved and we want to make sure that they're adequately
Put in the model for two reasons. We want to make sure that
the capacity that those
Facilities are providing are shown and reflected in our in
our network, but also to make sure that we connect to in
the future
The new roads we laid out and a lot of the new roads are
put into areas where there's not much development out there
because they
Have opportunity for new roads
Many times if we could always relay out our cities
We might relay our cities differently so we were trying to
learn from previous layouts and other communities and how
we laid out this network
So we laid out various networks for the new roadways
And then how do we determine the updates this is where we
really use the model
We want to make sure that what's going to load and we also
use the land use plan
We want to know what volumes are on the model today
What volumes in the model are going to be in the future in
some areas the model the volumes don't increase actually
some areas the volumes
Actually could go down a little bit because more roads are
built as more roads have built some traffic shifts
connectivity land use land use is important we wanted to
make sure we understood the land use out there we want to
make sure the
roadways can match the land use and there are existing
conditions and constraints and some roadways we
In some roads we probably want to have eight lanes if we
could because there's too much capacity on it but we don't
have the right of way to do that and the buildings are in
front so there's constraints we have to deal with
I just wanted to give you two examples the first is an what
we call an upgrade Jim Crystal Road was evaluated
And what you see on this map is green if you're familiar
looking at them didn't mobility plan which I've looked at a
lot of the last year
Green means secondary arterial red means primary arterial
It's the color indication so on the back it shows green
that's what Jim Crystal used to be its current class was a
secondary arterial
When we ran the model there was a lot of traffic that's
eventually in that industrial area gonna go towards I-35
and from Marsh Branch to I-35
It really needed some extra capacity to deal with the
turning movements at I-35
So one of our recommendations was to upgrade Jim Crystal
Road and so for all the upgrades and downgrades
We went for every road pretty much in the city of Denton
that's on the mobility plan we went through this exercise
Just some of them did not change. We've only identified the
ones that have changed
On the opposite end we looked at a road called Nottingham
it runs through a residential area
It's currently on the thorough for plan as a secondary
arterial. It doesn't show the volumes need to be a
secondary arterial
It's land use context really doesn't
Encourage a secondary arterial. It's a neighborhood type of
facility as well as it's got some limited right away
constraints
And so we we recommend downgrading
Nottingham really to match what the land use was out there
And so on the map in front of you
All the blue roadways are where we had upgrades
most of the upgrades you'll see are in future areas and one
of the reasons we're looking at that is we
aired a little bit on the heritage and caution if it was
close to the threshold of need and upgrade we kind of went
with
The philosophy of getting the right away now and most of
those are in the areas of new roadways
Downgrades those are the areas like I just mentioned on Not
tingham where we felt like the facility did not need to be
what the current thorough for plan was
And then we had some realignments just we were looking at
the alignments some of them are like Bonnie Bray
It's being designed right now. It's being realigned so we
're matching the alignment that's being designed currently
so some of those are realignments
When we put all these different maps together we get a
Post mobility plan ultimately the mobility plan is going to
look very similar to what you saw at the first slide
We're gonna match that but this is to communicate what we
changed the yellow slides are up when you see yellow behind
a road
That means that's been an updated facility that means the
classifications change or it's been realigned when you see
pink
That means it's a new facility, but a new facility could
mean an NPC it could mean
It's a brand new roadway
Those were just to let everyone know when they're looking
at this maps that if there's something highlighted behind
it
That's what's changed since the last time they looked since
the current existing map
One thing that we did and we wanted to show this slide.
This is the result of our chance-gap model one thing you
note
And this is a common occurrence across all of Texas is you
're never going to necessarily build yourself out of
congestion
That's why other mechanisms are port and connectivity
Walking etc. So you'll see in the core central area
You'll see some red red usually means that it's not the
great level service because there's not as much room to
widen roadways
So we have to figure out other ways to accommodate that but
one thing that's positive when we ran the results of this
model
Is that we had the delay and congestion of today's
environment?
And we added all the language we have in the future and we
built this new updated model and the delay slightly went
down
So that means we building a lot. We're building roads
We're also adding a lot of people and there was a reduction
in delay from what you see today
And that doesn't always happen a lot of time when you add a
lot of
Growth even if you're building roads
You can't keep up with it, but your plan at least kept up
with today's environment
Which was a positive thing when we tested it against the
current mobility plan. It was about 40% worse
So if you will we're saving about 40% with the
recommendations that we're making on this plan in delay
So one of the we've worked on this plan to a little history
We probably I think first was in this plan back in January
time frame
And we've been working on with various members of the
community fed several calls as well as
Several meetings with you guys already as well several
meetings with the mobility mobility and council committee
so with this staff is looking for comments as part of the
public hearing as well as
Staff is recommending approval to propose mobility plan
that's presented. So with that open any questions that you
have or
public hearing
Commissioner Bruegel, thank you chair mr. Whitaker
And I'm probably gonna have more questions later as well,
but I'll just start with these couple ones
You use the example of Nottingham being downgraded from a
secondary arterial to a collector street
I'm curious. Will there be any city initiated?
Projects to calm traffic on that street since there is it
is in a residential neighborhood. It's going to be a
collector
There's a park there. I know you can designate it as a
collector
But if it's built as a four lane highway going through a
neighborhood people are gonna speed down it
So I'm curious. Are there gonna be any?
City initiated or I'm sorry, maybe and maybe this would be
a better question
Purpose of this the map we are dedicating it to be a
collector which would lead it towards a different type of
desired speed
Etc so that would lead to be more open to those type of
things now, right?
So p is p.s here. Could you could you answer that for me,
please sir is
And if there's not a city initiated traffic calming
Device what what what would neighbor what would the
neighbors have to do to initiate?
Yeah, normally the process that the traffic engineers
follows is that the neighborhood actually approaches
That there is issue here on the street. They would like to
see some action
They will go and conduct a study. They look at the traffic
They look at the speeds and then based on that they will
come back and do some actual construction
Okay
So so in the case when any street in the city is downgraded
If the neighborhood would like to calm traffic on that they
would approach someone in the engineering department or
they would approach
Yes, the traffic engineer. Okay. All right. Thank you. My
second question is
I served on the bike plan years and years ago. And so I I'm
sorry. I should know this answer
as
I understand it when we are building a when we are
rebuilding a street not just paving it over
But we as we did like on Jago several years ago
We we dug it up and we rebuilt it and we put we we put the
bike
The Sharos there because that was part of the bike plan. I
'm curious when we're building these new streets
That are proposed in the mobility plan. What are the
requirements for building?
Designated bike lanes not a wide outside lane or a share.
But what are the requirements for a designated bike lane
and also?
sidewalks for these new these new builds
The designated bike lanes would be on those areas where we
already have a bike plan approved by the city
So if the bike plan is already there the engineers when
they design the street, they will take that into account
if
When we go through the context sensitive process
Which is still part of the consultant charge at this time.
We will continue to work on that process
with the mobility committee and the council to see how much
if there's acceptance of these CSS process if that is
becomes part of the
Design tool then in that case using the CSS process which
we touched base on in one presentation
I had done to you all earlier
The neighborhood and the stakeholders will be contacted.
There'll be a meeting based on the stakeholder input
You will come up with what is the best?
use for that particular street based on the neighborhood
Requirements and the constraints that are there on that
street based on the right away based on the traffic
so there would be so the engineering department would have
like a
neighborhood meeting with
People in that area when they're when you're when you're
proposing a new road to go through there and they could
help the neighborhood
Can then help design that street?
That will happen if the CSS process is adopted by the city
council
Okay, if it is not adopted then basically whatever cross-
section we have if there is no
Bike lane designated as part of the overall plan then they
would not design that as a bike lane in there and how do
you?
The use of the CSS process is approved by City Council. Is
that part of this mobility plan?
Is that it is not it's not part of the mobility plan. It is
just a standalone
Item there as part of the consultant work effort
So we still have to know we are trying to get this mobility
plan and the road impact free process done
And then we will continue on with the CSS process. We had
one presentation to the mobility committee
We need to go back and do a kind of a workshop to them
So they understand how this will work as if they will sit
there like stakeholders in the workshop
And they will put their comments in and then come out with
okay. This is what the section looks like
This is the best so that process if it is accepted by the
council
It will become part of the ordinance. So later on if the
city is going to
rehab a street
The CSS process will be one of the things that could be
used there if the neighborhood desires that
Instead of the same cross-section. We want to have a
different cross section. Okay
So that's that's something separate that City Council would
see that planning and zoning wouldn't necessarily see yes,
that is correct. Okay
Thank you. Appreciate it
Commissioner Rosal
Thank You chair
I'm currently looking at the current mobility map and
highlighted as yellow green and red streets
The green indicating existing road not to class standard
can
Staff or someone walk me through how the prioritization of
correcting this happens
Is there priority over the new roads that need to be built
or how does?
I'm trying to understand that's a lot of green roads that
we are identifying or not up to class standard
Is there a plan of action or how do you prioritize?
Getting those roads up to class standard
Not up to class standard means that the road is designated
to be a primary or a secondary arterial
Which is either a six lane or a four lane highway, but
currently it is not so if it is currently not
to that
classification then over time
And this is where the mobility plan comes in and the model
comes into play
With the model that has now we already have it as a tool
now
We know what streets are the most affected where the level
of service is the lowest
So using that data when we do bond sales later on to have
capacity projects
Those streets could be targeted that okay. These are the
roads where we have the worst condition right now
So we need to spend the money and bring them up to the
standard so it's based on
Condition and traffic patterns those two things with
traffic
Yeah condition is if the traffic is not there
But the condition has gone down the OCI rating has gone
down
Then city would spend some money just to bring the
condition up the structure condition. Okay. Thank you
Commissioner Dudowitz a question you mentioned a mobility
committee. Could you tell me who's on that committee,
please?
Identify them as staff and or citizens is comprised of
three council members three council members
Any other questions for staff
Thank you
This is a public hearing we do have some cards
The first card I'm a call on is our friend Brian Bentley
good to see you back
Brian you only get three minutes
First we need to talk about the area over near Clear Creek
As a matter of a point of order we need a name and an
address
There we go, all right
Well, okay. My name is Brian Bentley 2528 Jamestown didn't
Texas
and
You know, I'm pretty crazy kind of foolish at times and I'm
gonna prove to you tonight that I am because
If I were to support this mobility plan, I could make money
on it
But now since I'm going to speak against it and if I can
get you to deny it, I will lose some money
So because sometimes it's more important the overall goal
than to just make money
And the point is over here at Clear Creek and I'm really
sad that we don't have a big blow up of it
But it's a over you go up Mingo when you turn up Collins
Can we get a big map of that corner?
There we go, okay
well
First off, let me point out that these maps that
engineering is showing you in engineering. I'm not knocking
them
They do a good job of doing things on paper
They don't go out in the field and see the real world
sometimes
First off they're showing a lot of this land out here as
city. Well, maybe it might be in the future
But right now it's actually counting. It's not city limits
So you you get a skewed idea you think it you're looking at
something that's in the city, but it's not it's actually in
County
and
Where Clear Creek comes in here? There are three big ran
ches out there
and
Some names are so big they don't have to worry about money.
So I'm not I'm not
Convinced they're too eager to sell out
But you'll notice that this if you look at the history of
Clear Creek it if I remember right the year was
1956 when the agreements were made on that it's 2900 acres
and
It took a restoration effort to restore Clear Creek
And and yet now engineering wants to put a six lane arter
ial
Right beside Clear Creek now. I actually happen to own 10
acres that back up to Clear Creek and
That six lane road would actually connect right on to the
edge of my property
And I would end up with 10 acres of frontage on a six lane
arterial
well, yes, that would be worth a lot of money to me, but
We started a process 60 years ago to preserve this area and
I think it's more important to stick with our original plan
We do need a road going north and south but it can go over
to Cooper Creek it can go further west
Why do we want to put a six lane right up against a nature
preserve that we've worked 60 years?
to rebuild and preserve
also
The nature preserve is all in the floodplain. It's owned by
Corps of Engineers. It will never be developed
So we're going to put all this infrastructure
Right over against something where there is no possibility
for development on that side of the property on that side
of this road
so
To me it makes sense to move it to the west where we can
develop on both sides get higher taxes on both sides
and
if you've been out there
you know I I had I
Had does in my front yard that
Nestled in the bushes and slept out there all the time. I
got deer. I got turkeys. I got all kinds of stuff and
It just it just doesn't make sense
There any questions for Commissioner bit or ex-commissioner
Bentley, excuse me
Okay, thank you for your comments we have this is a public
hearing also have a card from mr. Leo Miller
Leo Miller 3091 Swisher Road and really have more questions
and it's not for y'all, but if you can steer me in a
direction
Some of these roadways and the mobility plan
Don't have the right away existing some of it the right
away is being granted as developments are happening where
the developer
Just is not required
To develop that road. It's obviously going to be a city
funded thing who
Dedicates determines that I think you mentioned bonds those
type of things
How do I go find out and push to get certain things on
certain bond issues? Who would I talk to about that?
See if staff can answer that question for you
I would actually refer to PS Aurora. He's with he's sitting
right behind you actually and please exchange
I know PS so I'll ask him what I saw here. I thought I
would just take a couple minutes of his time, but
other question on some of the level of services maps
There are some yellows and reds and various good and bad
grades, but there's very
Specific corner or area that's being affected by a school
and the decision to drop off
Children in the back with automobiles where was designed
for buses where there's infrastructure in the front to go
there
What I need to do is get the city the police and the DISD
all on the same page because they're all pointing to each
other
Saying it's somebody else's issue
Who I think we talked about the traffic engineer for the
city's perspective who is that?
Turn that over said I
Don't know the name of the traffic engineer. Yeah, who
would I call to start with I mean?
I will take your information and I will get back with you
with the right point of contact for all the information
that you need
All my information is on the card superb. I will get with
you tomorrow and we will get you in point in the right
direction
Commissioner Taylor, thank you chair. Could you could you
specify what neighborhood?
I'm really not in a neighborhood. It's villages of Carmel
preserves
Pecan Creek Elementary school sits between Lakeview and
old part of Swisher with Edwards East and West and
Pokers page pokers page new post of all funnels into the
backside of
Pecan Creek Elementary, which is clearly marked service
vehicles buses only
all the signage is the infrastructure the drive etc are all
built for service vehicles and buses the front of
Pecan Creek Elementary school faces Lakeview which has two
lanes north two lanes south
Easily during certain amount of times during the day that
one lane can be dedicated for a lot of students
And I get that there's a lot of students
I've talked to the principal and they're doing the best
they can but for about an hour
In the morning about an hour in the afternoon every day
that intersection is locked down somebody has a fire
somebody has a heart attack
Police need to get through there. It's not going to happen
So thank you
Thanks
This is a public hearing is there anyone else that would
like to come and speak on this item
Seeing none we do have a couple of emails
And I think I'll just acknowledge the two people who have
sent those to identify them we have one email for the
record from
Brian Bentley and then we have a second email from Patty
Hayworth and I'll include those as
part of our public record
Anyone else that would like to speak on this item before
close
Seeing none I will close the public hearing on this item
And I'll open the floor to commissioners for discussion or
emotion
Commissioner Beck I'm gonna step out of the way here and I
'm gonna make a motion we table this item
Had a lot of explaining things explaining the workshop and
this is not a knock against the staff at all
I think I do a great job. I love this plan in general
But as I say the the devil's in the details and I guess
being new is part of what I'm running up against here
I just feel like we need just a little more. I need a
little more time to look at this thing a little bit more
thoroughly
So I motion that we table that
The chair would ask you to clarify your motion. Do you have
a date that you would like to table this to?
If a month isn't too long I'd like to push it up a month
Not this not the next PNZ meeting but the meeting after
that
That's our second meeting in November we'll get the date
certain on that
Commissioner hudspeth
I would second that motion to give me an opportunity to
review the
Some information we discussed in the work session
November 18th, just for the record that meeting will be
november the 18th
We have a first and a second
And we have some additional discussion
Commissioner Dudowitz, just clarification that motion is to
have a public hearing
Or to have another work session for
Commissioners I wasn't I didn't get the this would be a
post-public for the public here. You mean clear
well, and it would hope it'd be discussed or in the work
session to
Followed by the public session. Okay, then I'd like to I
don't know if there's any
Formal process here to amend his motion that we have a kept
a commission's
Work session dedicated to this for our new commissioners
and for any other further questions
prior to the the public meeting
Question for staff will we have time to be able to do that
at our next meeting or would it need to be the second
meeting?
And then we will be taking this action on
If we can meet earlier
Prior to five we can actually start addressing some of the
questions that the commission has
I would have to clarify with ps in his schedule to make
sure they can attend
Okay
My concern if I may commissioner dunham
If we do it during a normal work session if we would have
enough time
So we may need to do a separate one or start an earlier
meeting for I wouldn't be opposed to that
Okay, um just to throw this out and staff can give
direction on this
We've had in the past some special call meetings
To deal with issues in the past and it may be appropriate
if we are tight on time
And this is a something that needs to move forward
That is that something that we should consider to have a
special call for this? Absolutely
We can start coordinating with yourselves on availability
and set up some a special called meeting or a few special
called meetings to address this
Okay, and if
Let me chime in on that as well. Thank you chair. I would
actually prefer if we could maybe meet
Instead of meeting earlier because those of us who have
jobs and kids it's difficult sometimes to get here in by
five
Um, so I know in the past what we've done is we've met
since we meet every other wednesday
We just we've got wednesdays kind of blocked out
Perhaps we could meet, you know at five or five thirty on
another wednesday in between sessions
If we wanted to workshop this more I would I would request
that as a working mom that be helpful. Thank you
Would it be appropriate staff to go ahead and try to set a
date or I don't know what sort of public notice
We need to give for that meeting
This will not be a public hearing the public hearing from
what i'm understanding tentatively has get placed on the
tape
As a motion is for november 18th prior to that
If someone can pull a calendar we can actually go ahead and
select the wednesday dates now
Is this something we will need to specify in this motion or
can we just leave it as a
As a special call meeting date to be determined for mr. Dud
owitz's november 11th would be the day
Would be a special called session and it would just require
the regular 72 hour agenda posting
It wouldn't push the public hearing back because the public
hearing would be on the on the 18th. So this would be the
week prior
And and i'm sorry just to clarify is there a an amendment
to the motion on the record I was going to ask
What was your amendment amendment is to have a a work
session prior to the
The public meetings that we could spend time discussing
among ourselves and you want to give us that date
November the 11th is that the date?
Whatever date is I understand they have to look at staff
has to look at options
I'll leave it up to staff to identify a date of a wednesday
in between
Okay
We can either do um the amendment or commissioner beck may
want to amend his motion to
Have that special call on the 11th
Okay, guide me here and then I I agree with what
commissioner dotter was saying if we could have that time
set aside
Or we could discuss it
What I need to do to do that to amend my own so you modify
your motion. Okay, then i'm accommodate mr
Dudowitz's, okay, I move to uh
Modify my motion to uh, it doesn't require separate motion.
You just make the statement that you've modified it. Okay,
I do
and the second
I think
Commissioner husband, do you agree with that? I do
Okay
With with all of that discussion. Do we need a restatement
of the motion over there? Well, let's we're not quite done
with amendments. Okay
commissioner taylor
Thank you chair
In order to
Get some work done before we get to our meetings on this
I would like to bring up a few issues that we've identified
in work session in the public hearing
and these can either be comments or if we want to amend
them into
The motion to postpone either way
So I think context sensitive design has has been mentioned
by staff and I think that's the key that we're looking at
here
So we want to make sure that
the local contexts are
Are appropriate for the roadways that are being planned and
we've identified
post oak
Near the clear creek natural heritage center possibly real
igning that to cooper creek
Or some similar realignment
There are also around hickory creek on the south side of
town
we have
Hickory creek forms another large barrier and there are not
parallel
Arterials or large collectors along hickory creek. There
are short segments
East west that that kind of stair step down
So i'd ask that we look at and there might not be any
feasible options, but we look at options
for an arterial or arterials that parallel the north and
south sides of the hickory creek floodplain area
It's also the map that is in the the existing
mobility plan map
shows
airports
rail floodplains
And other major barriers and that helps give us context
helps us understand the context
So we go why isn't there a road there? Oh, well, there's a
half mile wide floodplain there
Or there's a railroad track or there's an airport. So in
our next presentation
I would like them the future mobility plan map to include
major limiting factors like rail
airport floodplain
large esas
and
an additional map or overlay
Showing the future land use map. I think that would be good
for context for all of us
we can see
What we expect like we can in our heads understand somewhat
the demand
That is that the model is showing by saying that's rural.
That's commercial
There's an airport there things like that
And then specifically two more hot spots
the area around pecan creek elementary that does have
A connectivity issue and if there is any way to alleviate
that there might not be because of the built structure out
there
But i'd like to at least have that addressed as to what
could be done or why it can't be done
And then also around sam houston elementary. I don't
believe the model shows that as a
red level of service
But it it is
Just because of the local traffic patterns
So that would be teesley in the miller miller area. It
shows red or does it show red there? Okay
So those are those are all the things I would like to
To have at our special call meeting
I think the chair feels like those can just be addressed in
that special call rather than needing to be added to unless
you feel
Like you would like to okay
Anybody else
Do we need to have the motion restated is there by clear on
what we're doing with the tabling and then a special
meeting, okay?
Seeing none have a first and a second and we'll call for a
vote on the board
Chair
Did did we establish the date for that yet was it no did I
hear november the 8th 18th 18th 18th for the
for the special
Special session the 11th. Yeah
And that was at five o'clock, I assume I think we'll get
back with a time on those
Thank you, thank you any other clarifications before I call
the vote
Uh, I believe we have already voted on that that item and
it passed seven zero
That moves us to our final item this evening, um
Well, actually we have one other we're going to do a review
of the project matrix
And that that is not going to be a little bit here. No,
that is not I I it's
basically
Uh, we attached this through our system for you to for your
reference
So should you have any questions or concerns in your
concluding items that you wanted to bring up related to
this we'd be happy to
Are there any questions on the project matrix
Commissioner brigle not a question, but just a comment. I
just I find this very helpful. I really yeah
Now I find this very helpful and I like seeing all the
things at the bottom say completed completed
It's really nice to see where we're at and what we've done
and where we're going. So thank you
Any other comments or questions on the matrix
Okay, that will move us on to our concluding items
Commissioner hudspeth
Thank you chair
So I would like to request
information from staff
specifically
Regarding hoa's for our next session and i'd like to
Get an understanding of
liabilities to the city for costs
in advance of if
something were to
Happen with the hoa that they can't fulfill their agreement
So I I just want to discuss that I guess and so
I don't know if that's a legal discussion or whatever
during our next but but I just want to discuss
Or get some information on how that process
Goes forward and how we receive actual real dollars
If that need arises
I'd be happy to speak with you about that
One-on-one, I don't know if the entire commission
Wants to discuss any portion of that some of that is
attorney client privilege
That would be part of a closed session
Some of it could be open session, but um, it's really up to
the board whether or not they want that to hear that as a
whole
But i'll be happy to get with you and discuss it with you
one on one. Sure
Chair just wants to poll the commission. Is there anyone
else that would like to participate in that discussion?
If not, I the chair would would ask commissioner husbeth
get with legal and have your questions addressed in that
matter if we need to bring it forward
Uh, then we will certainly put it on the matrix and do that
. Thanks. Thank you, sir. Thank you
Any other comments or items for our concluding items?
Seeing none i'm going to close our meeting at 7 45. Thank
you
[ Silence ]