Oct 21, 2015 Planning and Zoning Commission on 2015-10-21 5:00 PM

Planning and zoning Commission work session together We have this meeting has been duly noticed and we have a qu orum present Our first item of business is going to be to receive a report on PZ 15 - point zero to five Clarification of agenda items Let me back up we're going to do the clarification of agenda items and then we'll go to our work session reports Thank you Person if I may take the liberty and opportunity to introduce two new team members to our development services planning department specifically We have made several enhancements to our team as you are all aware. We have created the long-range planning component That's officially underway behind some of the commissioners in front of some of the commissioners We have Ron Mungita who has assumed the role of long-range planning administrator So that we can move forward with implementing the elements of the long-range plan that we had have discussed several times I would also like to introduce in the back. We have Shand rian Jarvis. She is our planning supervisor She will be working on development review and we also have Beverly's end who is our DRC administrator Please do welcome her and feel free to call them and ask them any questions that you have as we move forward Welcome Thank you. That being said we'll go ahead and discuss the first few items on our workshop Which are the final which the first one is the final plat for epic addition. I'm going to ask Julie Wyatt to Go ahead and present that and go over the elements associated with that plat We have two plats going forward for epic addition the preliminary plat and the final plat are both coming forward to you tonight So if you recall If you recall a few months ago you had an SUP come before you for an apartment complex That is located in about the unicorn Lake area. So this is just they they received their SUP From City Council. So they're just coming forward with their plat They do have some access easements that allow them to access the property for both 35 and also down to Wind River And then they've also provided access through the property So I'll answer any questions and both the final plat and the preliminary plat are in conformance with each other So if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them Good Commissioner back I would just choose we don't know what use is going to be used for it It will be multi it will actually be mixed use and there will be some Office and restaurant use but the primary use on the on the property will be multifamily Okay, so maybe two-story apartment. I believe it's three story apartments There was a site plan associated with the SUP that was approved and so this This layout is in conformance with that site plan That was approved Commissioner Briggle, thank you chair Julia when we had approved this a few months ago there was a suggestion to create a connecting road for any future development to The left side, I guess of this flat if I'm looking at them Was it it was going to be towards I can't So I was just I'm There I know there are no developments to the West currently, but that was for any future connectivity Why is that not shown on this plat and I would have to go back and look at it Listen to the the meetings or read or read the minutes from that meeting We typically don't require the connectivity to the adjacent property because it could develop in a commercial You know with a commercial use that you wouldn't want necessarily want that connectivity with the apartments. So So I would have to go back but no this plat doesn't show that connectivity and if you wanted to Wait to approve it we could certainly go back and look at that I'm wondering if we can maybe review exactly what it was that we had approved that evening because I Remember because I was the one that made the suggestion that this was going to be like a mixed-use kind of area they wanted But a lot of the the driving was going to be done within this particular property And I had suggested that there'd be some connectivity to the west side for any people that might want to perhaps walk I remember walking and yeah, there could there there could be sidewalks associated with the site plan that aren't necessarily in an easement Okay, and actually now that I'm saying this out loud. I remember it was a sidewalk So with sidewalks be that would that would be later on in the site plan and not in them It would be a part of the building permit. Okay. I thank you. Sorry. No, that's okay back. All right. Thanks Commissioner dead awaits. I remember part of that discussion the sidewalks were to access south into the Centermark area parking lots into the adjacent I Think there's BJ's some restaurants Yes, sir The west side and the issue that they came up from the property owner to the west was that's a professional building and their professional They own that property and they would be opposed to having across Traffic going in through their parking lot back into Wind River. I don't know the outcome of that, but I remember that part Yeah, thanks for jogging my memory. I just remember that there was some form of connectivity to the west So I remember sidewalks now that you mentioned it Chair's gonna chime in as I recall to your point on the property to the west The business park that would be to the west of this and south Yes, there's a street stub as I recall back in behind that that accesses that property to the west It's not well, this will be emergency access Main access farther west farther. Okay. Yes There was a back in behind Alan Nelson's and Pete McCleskey 's office There's a street stub that accesses that property to the west If I recall commissioner Duddle and so that means that they would eventually put us in there They could they could they could attach to it. Okay, and a property owner there would Negate it or prove it or what I believe there were existing Access easements like all of these have shared access eas ements, right? So the owners of the office park I believe have some shared access easements. So that's already If the easements are there and it's plotted it's fine, but it doesn't but to someone's point it's not noted Any other questions on this item? Thank you, Julie, thank you Judy's gonna go ahead and present the next plant and preliminary plot for Brentwood Place Edition All right So this plot is located off of 377 north of Riney Road It is a townhome development and they are plotting I believe it is a hundred and seventy four residential lots and open in seven open space lots It will not be a gated community Commissioner back are these what we'd call zero lot lines in other words ones property ends There's no there's nothing in between They'll be townhomes and in the didn't development code you can have eight townhomes that are attached within a unit so so the the townhomes will The eight units will be a part of one building So I don't know if it would be considered necessary a zero lot line, but it would be a townhome type of element Commissioner Taylor, thank you chair we rarely get townhomes in Denton and I Think this is an interesting neighborhood to place them, but I do have just some general questions regarding them sure the What are our rules on parking access like parking are they are these going to have be required to have garages and? Would that be in the front or the back or it's it has an alley so they will be rear access the residential site design guidelines Require that the garage only take up 40% of the front facade of a residential building So the garages will actually be in the back and it will be accessed through alley with your with a car So in that 40% is that 40% of the ground level or is that 40% of the if you have a four-story building for example Could you have a one-story continuous garage and you less than for Alec Manali if I'm not mistaken It is the ground level so you would have to have that relief in your front elevation without taking into account the entire mass Of that front elevation so it would be a first story front elevation And I understand so this one is going to have alley access and garages in the back in another townhome development Would there be a requirement that there be garages in each unit? We I'm going to have to double check that code we don't require garages We do require two parking spaces per single-family resident or single-family residential dwelling So if they don't have a garage they would have to have at least a parking pad that could accommodate to my right on that mental - cars so I'm still a garage and in that case it would be Possible that those would be in the front. Yes Thank you Any other questions on this item Thank You Julie That every moving on to our next final plan for a mission Street edition. I'm going to ask Ross Culbertson to go ahead and Present this . Julie. Can I have your assistance real quick? So close Simply this is a commercial final plats for a single tenant office use on one lot The plaque forms to the DDC and staff recommends approval the use is Tied to an individual owner who wants to build his own office building on one lot. So with that If you have any questions, I'll stand for you Questions on this side Thanks, sir, thank you Thank you, Ross, Judy's gonna come back and present final plot for North Park phase 2a I Don't have this one on the screen there was a change made to it So it was actually at each of your spots except for you Man al. I apologize. I didn't bring enough coffee There was one plat note that was removed It was it was left there in error as a residual plat note from the preliminary plat So plat note 6 has been removed, but this is the first phase for Old North Park phase 2 and If you recall this was a zoning case that came before you about this time last year and so they're they're beginning and it will be Single-family homes and I'll answer any questions Questions on this item I Have one and I'm trying to find that's the joy of electronics not being a mark on it. I Made a note Somewhere I think it was in one of the details. Maybe it was on the plat about paving materials Do we have any idea what's to go in here on these two lots 9 and 28? temporary it will be temporary and it will be paving will be sufficient to accommodate the weight of a fire truck or emergency vehicles those will actually Be accessed for a temporary basis until phase 2 comes about and a replat comes back before you and those will be then Transitioned back to a residential lot. These are just here for fire access I understand what they're for are they gravel or are they concrete? They'll be concrete. Okay, so it's a concrete Temporary street that they're going to put in and they'll remove off of these lots when they do the next phase. Okay. Thank you. Sure Anybody else Commissioner Hudson Thank you. I have a I guess it falls under legal question and it's going to relate to some other topics. What is What is the relief for the city with regards to HOA's? So and it for example, for instance this says easement shall be maintained by the HOA Is there a deposit they put down or is there and so what is the enforcement capability of the city? So you're shifting that responsibility, but then what is the enforcement mechanism for that? There is an enforcement mechanism. There's a private right of action that we could do to enforce equitable Covenants on other land, especially if there's an HOA, but we don't necessarily exercise it ever Generally, they're gonna have to go by the restrictions or the HOA can enforce it through fines and foreclosure but in some instances we do have property where the HOA has failed to do that or the HOA becomes abandoned or disbanded and then sometimes we often do have to step in and Have some sort of code action or try to enforce it privately in a public manner Follow-up question. So what is what is so getting to it? So monetarily what is the what is the end result? So if I if I take their land then there's their fire sale How do you how do we get compensated and only ask because oftentimes I'll see that the city will say We don't have it in the budget to send a crew out or works. We're taking on an additional expense and So their land doesn't satisfy that expense Usually you have to do the labor in advance or the city will have to be on the hook for the labor so like if it's something Where we have to get an outside person to come in and take things off the land or remove it like rubbish and even of a fire If they have to demolish a structure Then we're gonna have to go ahead and pay for that and then file a lien against the property any work that we do It's gonna be a labor lien we can also get civil penalties in that matter and that'll be reduced to a judicial lien on the property and then in Some events we can foreclose on it as long as it's not like a Homesteaded property we can foreclose and get our costs back based on the value of the property Which is the best we can do? Okay Did I answer your question? Yes, but I'm thinking there's a I don't know what the form is So I don't want to go outside the bounds. So I'll bring it up this evening And during that they're in a closing session in that way I can Have a thought Thank you any other questions on this item? Thank you Julie Ross is going to present the final plot for Terry tree Harry's tree house edition The evening this is a final plan for Terry's tree house we Have worked with the applicants through the plan development a living process to bring forth the use on the property This is the final plat that records easements Specific to that use it's in conformance with the DIN development code and all city departments and so staffs recommending approval on the final plan Any questions on this item I've got a comment I think when this came before us this is the parcel that's back behind 7-eleven that's going to be the daycare center. We had a lot of discussion about I believe there were a couple options that were given to them correct either a curb Is that addressed in this it's addressed in the building permits with the site plan and it affects a Landscape area curbed area on this side of the fire so it's not on this but it's in correct. Okay. Thank you We'll go ahead and close out the plots first we have a final replant for our shrimp edition And I'm going to ask Julie to go ahead and present that before we dive into All right, since this is a since this is a replat it does have to have a public hearing per the Texas local government code So we'll be going over this in the public hearing but this is a replat of the Ashram edition a lot one block a that They're taking in some unplatted property in order to construct a shade structure so they can have yoga classes outside Any questions on this item this is not enough in our deck it is it should be but it's a public hearing That's why it's in it's further on in your packet. Okay But I wanted to close out the plot since we were talking about them Any questions? Thank you, Julie Just for the Commission's edification we do have an item that has been continued to November 4th meeting and that's the public hearing To address procedural and government standards for the razor ranch development overlay district. So that is being postponed and with that the next item that we have before us is to discuss the Dent City of Denton's mobility plan I believe PS is here to make that presentation or his representative Okay Do you If someone would come to the podium so that if the Commission has any questions we can address those I Good afternoon Commission Jeff Whitaker The presentation we plan to give in a public hearing is very similar to the presentation that you saw at the last September 16th meeting I believe so we weren't going to re- give the presentation to you guys again now, but if there's any questions from the Commission we would Like to hear those before I recognize anybody We've had a couple of emails today. Would it be appropriate staff to Talk about those at this time or wait till our public hearing tonight Since this is a work session that addresses these items. It is appropriate to bring these up. Okay, great I think Commissioner Beck I guess my one question I have anyway is are we approving this is going forward after tonight if we approve this I mean because As these two lit well at least one letter raised a concern One makes me look a little deeper. So are we in effect going to approve this and it's going to move forward or and if it moves forward Do we have other opportunities to say wait a minute, you know I think the short answer we're looking to move forward to a council public hearing If there are comments that are received now between now and the council public hearing we can entertain and address those so there's an issue There that people are concerned about And we got those emails and we have looked at them and we can we can discuss those in this work session as well Okay, so we're not locking into something here that's going forward We're not going to change any UI shape or form. Yes, we are . Yeah It's actually on the agenda for tonight under item 5a is a public hearing where you can take action on it tonight. Okay If you feel like what the information you have is inadequate or enough then you you can you know exercise your right to postpone it but Sure Commissioner Dudowitz I'm with Larry. I'm not comfortable yet to make and this is just me speaking, but we do have three new Commissioners here that and I've been through a couple of these presentations and I'm still kind of confused and It's very it's been very vague and I see drawings streets that are I Can't tell from this the detail and I'm very uncomfortable To take a vote to pass of the City Council that I'm still not sure what we're proving I haven't asked that question What is our role and what are we doing and we're supposed to be approving something that I'm not sure what I'm appro ving And so I'm going to suggest that we either get in get more detail and or have other meetings on this But I'm not comfortable With the scope of this and the vagueness of it all it's and we got you know Two emails today with detail that I'm wondering where they got that detail from because I haven't been exposed to it And is a you know as a as a commissioner here, where do I have to go to get it? It seems that we're responsible for looking and searching for this data and it's not there I mean I got a map that's similar to that and I spent three weeks looking at it and I defy anybody to tell me What this means and we got some nice colored pictures and we got some lines half the streets aren't labeled And I don't know if what a second arterial is and what's that design what's a primary It's it's for me. It's just still still too vague and too conceptual to Suggest there should be a vote to take the city council. Okay. I appreciate your comments I think I'd ask staff to maybe give us some Refresher on what the mobility plan is that it's not set in stone that it is a more of a concept Plan and I'd like to ask them to clarify some of those and maybe shed some light on some of the questions That will be part of the presentation today when the presentation is done. I'm sorry. I'm not Feeling that well, I've been out of country and so I put that to Jeff to do the presentation today He will go through the presentation. It is still a And what you see on the map Is going to be a schematic in some ways It is going to be that way. It's not possible to put all the detail on a street on That scale a map for individual streets. There's no way to do that What you have is the base map that is already been there for 15 years What we are doing is adding to it which is the Hills of Denton and some of the other MPCs and then also some of the other areas which have been annexed into the city We have added some streets in those areas. So what we are doing is just addition of some streets and the MPCs that have already been approved and the road layout has already been approved that has been added to the schematic primary arterials secondary arterials Collector streets we have cross sections on those in our criteria manual as to what each one of those look like six lanes four lanes Two lanes with turn lanes, etc. They're in the criterion of the details of those Are those schematics? In set in concrete or they just okay. Here's what we're thinking about. No, sir Those are already in the criterion manual. We are not making any changes to those They're already there. They've been there since the 2000. Okay Follow up please because I remember within that conversation that one of the commissioners suggested that there's a median in there, but it's as wide as a as a as a 24 foot wide right away, but is standard and That's a standard I'll let Jeff talk about that and as to why the medians are why There's two things one is the cross section the design menu . We're not looking to change We're looking at if you will for this for what you're proving today is we're looking at lines on a map to obtain right away to build Roadways a cross section design change would be a different process than this But the reason of 24 foot is there and that's probably on the primary material is to accommodate two left turn lanes for dual left turn lanes So there is a standard behind that But that's not something we're looking at changing the standard with this with this motion today Another question on this map that we have. How do we distinguish what was proved prior and what's new? On the map anything that's highlighted in yellow or pink is new It's been either updated. It's updated in yellow or pink is new Okay, I believe it Yellow and what please pink pink. Okay. I'm looking here. So we got a lot of yellow and pink But again, you know, we're looking at a street that comes into a street without a name I mean, I like to know what those names are so I could kind of look at a visual or map to see it makes Make sense. So this yes, and we do have that in one presentation. We had a table that outlined all the new streets and upgrades and the realignments I'm suggesting all the streets that touch these these new updates is not are not listed on here nor in there Okay, we we have that we have some maps that show all the alignments and maps that we've previously gone through You have that for this evening we do we have rollout plots and all the information that's been previously presented the previous meetings We do have all that information and there's tables available for all the the details that you want that are attached in the previous presentation Before I recognize them I Think I heard at the beginning of this you said you weren't prepared to make a presentation You were just going to wait and do that in public I'd just like to kind of open it up here for some feedback from the commissioners. Would you all like to try to open? The presentation and talk about possibly the very final map to propose mobility plan that's going to show some news and maybe address some of these questions or if we're Uncomfortable enough this evening that we don't think we're going to take action There's no need to spend in the time to do that. Can I get some some feedback? Just for clarification pretty much what the chairman said is this more a concept? It's not chipped in stone. This is General planning principles on thoroughfare planning is that alignment can move? Generally the rule of thumb is you're connecting point a to point B and the exact alignment will take bonnie bray for example That's a currently plan that's being designed and going through a schematic And the idea was they were going to get for point a point B when the engineering the 30% engineering was done They actually figured how to do it. The thoroughfare plan is basically to identify We're getting from this point to this point and generally rule thumb You don't modify your thoroughfare plan if you're changing within a thousand feet That's a general rule thumb so that alignment can move a thousand feet We try to match it as close as we thought it could be at this time, but that doesn't mean it's not Yeah, to add to that so you actually there are routing studies actually done when it what is designed So at that time when the full engineering is done The engineer would actually go out take a look like all the Properties that you have to cross what is the best way to cross them? What is what property are actually available that can buy the right away, so this is not a fixed alignment That will happen actually when the design is done Then it gets fixed then they go out they engage the right away people They go out and talk to the property owners, and that's how the alignment gets fixed at that time Okay, so again when we vote tonight. We're just saying okay Let's move forward with it, but we're not saying these are the roads that are going to be cut This is what we're going to do definitely Yes, this is just a representation of how Overall the schematic looks like okay Let me specifically the one concern this guy wrote in about you know is what kind of raised my eyebrows and to the whole thing But I mean if there is some resentment by the public or a group of people cutting a six -lane road through a wildlife preserve I mean is there a mechanism in place where we could you know This or come up with something else I think we have a Actual slide that Jeff will be able to show you it is really not cutting through a wildlife preserve There's actually a road already out there at this time and what we are doing is we are using the same road It's just going to be expanded a little bit. The road is already there It's going to be a primary arterial right yes, but it is not really going into any of the ESA areas Okay Just real quickly in your statement here you say some streets that are primary arterials Supposedly downgraded to second arterials Also some streets are supposed to be downgraded Then you're going from secondary to primary Can you name what are some of those streets that are going to? Commissioner Beck? Can I may I interrupt first and thank you chair and make a suggestion perhaps? We're kind of jumping all around here, and we have an hour before our Regular session we don't have a very heavy agenda once we start and so I'm wondering maybe To clarify and stay on track and ask these questions Maybe in a more organized manner if we could see the presentation and then and these are all very good questions But if we could lay it all out see the presentation and then ask the questions when they come up perhaps it would kind of help Clarify and answer other questions about people might be holding on to can I would that be okay? That's a great idea. I think before we move on that I want to ask staff a Clarification or procedure question we've got two other items on our work session Yes, and maybe before you know I open the floor to get some feedback before we Get a presentation Maybe it would be appropriate for us to at least cover the two other items we have on our work session and get those Out of the way, and then whatever time we have left we can devote to Trying to address this mobility Some these mobility questions that be appropriate staff. I would suggest that I didn't mean to cut you off Well no, I appreciate what you say because that's really what I was going right we need more time To that that we had presentation to the mobility committee and to the council both As we brought this to you we had a buy-in from the mobility committee as well as from the council To move forward that the way The overall mobility plan is now proposed with the changes so Just want to flag you that you know we already have done that So this is the next step here to go to the public hearing then we want more public hearing that with the council level I think we're gonna at this point We're gonna table this discussion and we're gonna move to these two and when we call you back up I think we would like to have you be prepared to make your presentation I think a lot of the questions that are being asked are going to be addressed with the proposed mobility plan So maybe if we can pull that up when you come up. I think a lot of these questions may be able to be addressed so With that just as a matter of clarification with the record we are not tabling the item We're postponing it to the end of the work session. Thank you for the clarification Thank you, mr. Chair I'm going to ask Julie Wyatt to come forward and make a presentation Regarding a definition and use for assembly halls to the Denton Development Code Been trying to get sick so I might be off I'm Julie Wyatt associate planner with the city of Denton and I am presenting Some information on assembly halls to you. It's a proposed addition to the Denton Development Code So in the past year or so staff has received some inquiries that regarding the ability to develop Facilities that would accommodate private functions such as weddings meetings banquets in more non-commercial or rural areas and And particularly recently we had one where they wanted to do a farm on the west side of town But and with a wedding facility that was that was Accessory to that but it's an NNR 2 zoning district and that doesn't permit that use And so and so but we think it's you know, it might be a really good idea for the area So when we looked at it, we realized the DDC really doesn't have a definition that Accurately describes this activity and this activity can include catering Alcohol sales for on-site consumption or live or recorded music. So for once again like weddings or some sort of private event We look we typically apply two different uses to that one being restaurant Which isn't really accurate and the other being semi public halls clubs and lodges Which really isn't accurate because that really applies to not-for-profit entities So we don't really just have a good definition that that encompasses all these activities So when we discussed it We thought of two options that we could move forward with one would be to revise an existing definition and the other would be to create a new use So let's look at the first option it would be to revise an existing definition and that would be the definition of semi public halls Clubs and lodges the DDC defines that as a structure facility owned or operated for special educational or recreational purposes But not primarily for profit or to render a service that is customarily carried on for gain So when you break down that definition the first part of it the structure facility owned or operated for special educational Recreational purposes that does encompass the the specific activities that would be associated with an assembly hall However, when you look at the second part that limits it to the not-for-profit entities so so these these these applicants who are coming to us, we really just didn't have something to To to apply to what they're wanting to do And so the first option would be to propose this definition to remove the semi public add in assembly halls For for the use and then to remove the second part of the definition which would be the not-for-profit So it would broaden who could use it. So for-profit entities could use it The second option would just be to put in a new use in the development code In the use tables and in the definitions a proposed definition would be a building or pump building or portion of a building In which facilities are provided for civic educational political religious or social purposes So when we look at the use tables for these proposed uses We're really looking at mimicking what's existing in the Denton Development Code for semi public halls clubs and lod ges As I've said those those activities that are associated with that use Really are the same thing that would be associated with an assembly hall, but it does have that not-for-profit Component to it. So we're really just mimicking what's already in the Denton Development Code So for the rural districts that would not be permitted in RD5, but would be permitted in RC for the neighborhood residential zoning districts, it would be Permitted with an SUP in districts 1 NR1 through NR6 it would have a limitation in NRMU 12 and then permitted in NRMU and Then be permitted by right in in the downtown districts the community mixed use districts the regional mixed use districts the employment centers and the industrial centers So the discussion and what I'm posing to you tonight is when staff really looks at at a potential code amendment to allow for assembly halls We're really leaning toward the the revising the existing use it already encompasses the activities it's already embedded within the use tables and it really is just just broadening it to allow for for-profit entities, but we wanted to get your feedback on it and then see if you had any other adjustments to To what I've presented to you tonight and see if you had any other comments Commissioner Bruegel. Thank you chair Julie. Can you please go back to the first definition that you were suggesting? Just want to look at that again Okay, and then the second definition again Okay, so my question is Regarding gentlemen's clubs, right and though I might disagree with the definition of a gentleman while we're talking about gentlemen's clubs I'm wondering if we might be opening the door for something like that to be put on the outskirts of town. What are the limitations? Surrounding let me get my use to because I because I understand like we're looking at something for like a wedding reception I'm all for that. Let's talk about that But I just want to want to be clear are we opening the door for other uses that might not be Let me get my receptionist reception halls They're actually part of this Okay, they're part of a zoning class of sexually oriented businesses. Okay, you precluded in most Use classifications. Okay Yes, we do have a use for that okay, so those are specifically defined defined in the TTC. Okay. Thank you Commissioner Roselle. Thank you chair along with Commissioner Burgles point is this potential for like amphitheaters or like concert venues I'm thinking about noise if they're able just to Public use and close to neighborhoods if there's any limitations in code that would have a decibel requirement or We did we did look at that because that was a concern that we had for particularly the neighborhood residential zoning district But it does have that extra layer of the specific use permit So, you know the specific use permit is a use that may be permitted in that zoning district provided that it can meet certain criteria for approval or may have additional conditions, so conditions could be put on the use for the hours of operation for noise limits for the duration of the use you could put a You could say this use is only permitted for five years and you'd have to come back So there are conditions we can put on it that would ensure compatibility with the neighborhood. Okay. Thank you. Sure clarification Commissioner dead always when you said the SUP does the SUP request have to come through us? Yes Okay, so then to public here would have the ability to Question it Commissioner Huntsman. So just By way of example the Martin Luther King Center there does quite a bit of All that what is their classification? that is that That's a public part Not sure part part of the MLK Center is parkland it's also community service use Community service is permitted in numerous If I can clarify a little bit just to go back to Commissioner Rizal you mentioned amphitheater We've evaluated the schedule of uses the uses that are permitted In our zoning ordinance in our Denton Development Code Amphitheater for example was one of the issues we looked at how much open air what are we talking about? What about noise that use is specified and the parameters of that definition do not fit into this definition So you can automatically through process of elimination neg ate that we also have another use called Judy Sophia, I'm sorry. What was that use again? It just major event entertainment that has parameters on The occupancy with that as well the specific use permit in this instance would allow you to place further parameters on your occupancy load On how much outdoor activity you could have? Noise we do have a noise ordinance that is in place as well let's take an example if a banquet hall and I mean or an assembly hall came in in the neighborhood residential district you have a large residential subdivision and As part of their amenity center they have this use so that communities the community can utilize it The specific use permit would also come into play that would then further condition the use of that site We also have civic centers That Sophie just mentioned and those uses are again defined separately in terms of the city's functions in the city's uses and Again, those are limited under different parameters as well . So this specifically is being proposed to accommodate in commercial districts in residential districts depending on the zoning you're looking at to allow a Structure that could accommodate for instance a wedding and associated with the wedding you would have for a band as an example Or you have a very large Property that has green space and you wanted to use that utilize the outdoor component To accommodate a wedding for example and have an outdoor band But again the ordinances that exist would apply to those uses Yes, sir, yeah sure that I Think I understood that but my only my only example is and I guess I'll get to the to the just of it shift down the street the Legion Hall the Legion Hall does everything you touched on currently under the current northern they have a church that meets there It's rented out every weekend for private parties. It's used as a community building. So why do we need to change it? I guess that's what I'm saying If what what is wrong with the ordinance now that all that 's going on in that building that would not apply to a private building What am I missing the definition limits it to a not-for- profit? I think I understand what you're saying People rent it and they're not you know, because it's gonna be a facility that's rented by private entity That's not that is you know, and we may not be aware that it's being rented for that Do you see so the use is that they're conducting out of that facility? May not fit the definition yet. They might do that For profit as you're saying but more than likely It is our assumption that those uses that do occur out of facilities that we know are for non-profit Are for not profit as the definition reads or intended to be in that manner clarification or that was We have to go back and look at the definition of what is profit nonprofit if the organization Is filed as a nonprofit then they can take revenue into offset costs at the end of the year In the gates and there's a definition for that. So We have to understand that in the in their definitions of profit nonprofits not by individual events It's by that entity and how it files its taxes, right? Commissioner Tyler, thank you chair So I'm trying to think of an example now of something in the city that might fall under this use and Civic Center Is a city property MLK centers city property the you know the American Legion and those are all nonprofits churches, they're all nonprofits TWU and UNT both can rent halls State organizations that are exempt from zoning. So and I guess we we used to the Radisson used to have an Attached use but it would be secondary to the hotel. So we really right now don't have any privately owned Like event centers or conference centers or anything. Is that what about Ashton Gardens? It's a wedding venue off I 35. I believe that's in current. That's current But it's a similar. Yes. Well, I've got one to just throw out How would for example like in some of the larger developments that have like an amenity center or How would these that are in a residential area can those now be rented out for this or not? With an SUV. Okay. Okay. Any other questions? I'll be back I just commissioner has been yes, sir. Thank you. I Just need I guess I don't get it Is this is a short answer and the longer answer is if I'm a business owner and you're giving me a whole bunch of moving Parts then I don't want to invest because I'm in the business of hosting parties every weekend Every hour on the hour and I don't want to come in front of the council every week to get the okay, you know I mean, I just don't know Maybe I'm missing it and then I'll concede that but I'm gonna ask to give you a clarification on the issue If I could jump in an SUP it would just be a well, it depends on how it's structured But it would they would get approval from the count from the council for either a limited amount of time or a specified amount of time So they wouldn't have to come once a week It would be for their their a duration a long duration that they would be there and it would only be On what we discussed it would only be in the residential districts The the commercial districts it would be permitted by right so downtown they could do it You know on the loop in commercial districts they could do it but in a residential area we would want to have a little more Scrutiny on it to make sure that it did Was compatible with the existing development pattern and the the existing land uses So but as you P they wouldn't have to come every time they had an event just for the use for the duration I don't know if I'm saying that I don't know if I'm correct Okay Thank you, by way of example on Lilliam Miller there's the Yes, what is there? What is their duration of their SUP? They don't have an SUP It actually is a bed and it's a non-conforming use and it's actually considered a bed and breakfast It was developed under a plan development prior to the develop prior to the adoption of the current didn't development code So that type of use would be permitted depending on which zoning district They were in either by right or with the approval of a specific use permit The intent of the specific use permit is if we're looking at residential areas or let's take the existing site that you just mentioned Let's assume the zoning was that required an SUP But we know what the surrounding land uses are that would allow us to conduct an analysis to determine that it is not detrimental to the existing land uses that are already established in the area as an example Okay Thank you Any other questions on this item? We'll move on to Receive a report on the didn't development code requirements for getting to use Yes, I'm sorry we back it commissioner Taylor so From what I'm hearing it sounds like everybody's okay with a single Modified existing definition We don't think we need to split them from a non to have a non-profit definition and a for-profit definition. Is that is that correct? I'm fine with not splitting it So am I do we need a vote or how does this get no we will now want now that we've got the nod We'll proceed with actually conducting the public hearing to amend the DDC to incorporate the revised definition But not tonight not tonight, so we'll be able to talk about this some more Yes Is that what anything else you need on this particular item ? Okay, we'll then move on to item B Julie I'll stay here All right So a few months ago you had a case come before you that was going to be a gated community And there were some current concerns and questions regarding connectivity and other Facilities that were associated with gated community so we just wanted to bring this back and talk to you about what's in the DDC regarding gated communities and and then Ask answer any questions we can for you So we'll start with the definition of a gated community sub chapter 23 Defines that it is a subdivision or housing development with two or more dwellings with private streets controlled through the use of a vehicular or pedestrian gate So when a Gated community when we look at it from a staff level and then at P&Z. It's it's typically through the plat we The requirements for gated communities are in sub chapter 16 of the Denton development code and so a lot of the issues that come up with gated communities are Are reviewed during the platting process? So we'll just go over the main things that you're gonna see on a plat as they relate to a gated community First of all the streets. I know connectivity was a was an important question If a gated community only has one access point For the public the code requires that they provide a second access point for emergency vehicles only So that is one that they need to have the two access points one For the people who live there and then one for the emergency vehicles I believe Commissioner Taylor. This is one of your questions regarding a recent recent case the turnaround There is a turnaround that's required. It is within the right-of-way But it is it has to be maintained by the HOA and it's outside of the perimeter gate So it would be something that someone if they didn't gain access that they could turn around and get back on the public street So that is a requirement of our gated communities the streets are privately owned and maintained but they are designed To the requirements of public streets in the city of Denton But the HOA does own those streets and they do maintain them And then connectivity and I want to look at my notes So there is a provision within a sub chapter 16 regarding g ated communities and gate and connectivity Gated communities shall not be allowed to obstruct any existing arterial street or proposed arterial street as shown in the city mobility plan so they're not allowed to to Create a situation where they're going to reduce connectivity when it comes to the mobility plan furthermore They cannot negatively affect vehicular or pedestrian traffic circulation on public streets They can't impair access to the property to the subdivision or to act or access to or from public facilities and that includes schools Parks and libraries or the response time of the emergency vehicle So they do need we do need to make sure that the connectivity is is not reduced and that we are aware of that That issue when it comes to gated communities Just briefly Water and wastewater those are located within Underneath the streets so the streets are privately owned and maintained But they are required to dedicate a public utility easement on top of those streets so that water and wastewater can be located in those streets it's also important to note that they are dedicated to the city and so if a repair needed to be done the city would potentially go under the street and and To repair the line if they did have to repair the street the city would repair the street In accordance with city standards and on the low cost estimate and If there were any design Requirements that the that the neighborhood had that the g ated community had that were above and beyond what the city Guidelines were that the city would not put the street back like that. The HOA would then have to take care of it So if there was some sort of brick pattern on the street or some other Design element of the streets the city wouldn't necessarily wouldn't put that back to HOA would be required to put that back Does that make sense? Okay Electric facilities same thing They are owned by electric company if they did if the city had to get in or had to repair that And then then the city would repair the streets But but to what the city standards are the access gates Fire the fire chief is required to have access to any any Codes or key pads in order to get into the property they also the access gates also have to accommodate a fire truck and And be allowed that ingress and egress the Postmaster and the wet water wastewater the streets also have access to the property Just in case they need to get in there and then the post office would obviously need to get in there as well as solid waste Here's a picture of Agated community that's in existence in the city of Denton Tuscan Hills, Tuscan Hills And the most important thing on HOA is when you're talking about all these public facilities is the HOA and I think we We discussed it earlier this evening. They are required within a gated community during the final plat the Applicant is required to provide those HOA documents for us to look at Because we want to make sure that there are a couple of things in those HOA documents first the power to To file a lien or foreclose on the property. We want to make sure they get paid so that the facilities can be maintained Provide for the maintenance of any of those common areas and privately held facilities and The Denton Development Code does require that they cannot be dissolved without City Council approval So if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them questions I Have one Excuse me Commissioner Hudson. Yeah, and I'll be brief. I just want to Bookmark here. I want to come back later and talk about Disputes I'm concerned about litigation for if we repair a road. They say it's not prepared repaired Correctly, there's there's some sort of disputes there that could come about and also It strikes me as odd that you need a deposit to get your utilities turned on but we're going to give HOA streets with no bond or no requirement of Money and so my concern the city ends up having to pay for something and then go through Foreclosure processes which ultimately may never result in Recovering those lost dollars for whatever that whatever started the litigation so, you know due to bankruptcy this that or the other So that's my concern, but we I'll save it for later, but I do want to just earmark that Okay anybody else I've got one question on this then You addressed it somewhat on item three and five you've got lease costs and I understand that For the example you have up they have stamp concrete or pa vers there Does the city pay what? The lease cost portion would be and then the HOA has to pay on top or how does that? Okay That was my only anybody else Commissioner Briegel Julie how many gated communities does Denton currently have not counting the one that we just approved I believe we have two we have Tuscan Hills and Robes and ranch Allison Park, is there another one? T's Lee. Oh, okay. Sorry. Okay And I'm kind of curious. So when people pay HOA fees in one of those gated communities it goes not only towards like it ropes and ranch for example They've got that the golf course and they've got the recreation facility and these beautiful amenities down there But the the HOA fees that they would pay also would go for road maintenance and such yeah Because those are privately maintained roads, correct? Okay I'm curious what other because I'm not a part of an HOA so when people pay an HOA fee in a neighborhood That's not in a gated community. Where did those HOA fees go? They're not going to street maintenance because those are public roads Well, if we have if there were open space if there was any drainage facilities that were if there was a Detention pond that was in that neighborhood then the HOA fees would go toward maintaining that In any other amenities that the HOA had So if they If an HOA were to fold Who would then be responsible for Those roads at that point Would that be that would be for I'm gonna jump in make a comment We have a lot of discussion about the roads the roads are put in for city specs The developer pays for them and puts them in just like if they are non HOA The difference is the HOA is maintaining something that otherwise the city would be maintaining So the city in my opinion gets a benefit that the developer pays for it puts it in and then is willing to maintain Something and if the city gets it back then guess what? They're now on the hook to maintain a street that the private individual were paying for Whereas a rather regular public street put in the same specs. The public is paying for it from day one so I don't see the Concerns about that the HOA is somehow getting off the hook But they're kind of carrying the note for the city as long as they're in Functioning and the city gets it back after being taken care of and paid for by HOA for however long that is Well, I certainly didn't mean to Sorry if my question came off that way that I was accusing HOA's of getting off the hook I just I sincerely want to know if an HOA were to fold and they've been maintaining these roads this whole time Then that financial burden would then come back to the city and they finally have to start paying for it Okay, well the common areas I'm also curious are are do are there other cities that you are aware of that don't allow gated communities? And if so, what are there? What are there I'm just I'm Sincerely curious about this. Yeah, no, they're across the board. Yeah, okay I'm done now Thank you Mr. Gatowich in my life experience I have lived in 17 different homesteads. I have lived in HOA's gated and non gated communities and your questions are well founded The HOA put together a budget Requiring you know where the funds have to go if they're g ated their additional funds. I live in an HOA situation now We maintain common property and our HOA fees are pretty small as compared to other HOA's that I belong to so it Just you know, the HOA's got to come up with a budget and then they assess the homeowners and property owners a certain percentage of that They maintain their budget and puts into a kitty Future use for maintenance issues and in some cases those can be fairly high HOA fees But the people going in there know that and they maintain their funds accordingly. So yeah, I've been there done that Any other questions on this item? Commissioner back. Thank you chair in the event that an HOA does fold Do we didn't get to go in and tear the gates down? It's no longer a gated community Do they essentially lose their rights then they had I would assume that yes the gate would have to Any other questions on this item are we gonna look for We're not leaving any action on this. No, this was purely a Discussion we presented some facts that are in our dental development code The Commission had asked I would think about a month and a half ago on What are the parameters and we wanted to provide some insight to you? Thank you. I had requested that and I'm very I was very pleased to see that come up on our work session So quickly after that request, so thank you for that Thank you, Julie. I think been whispered to that. We've got some food if this takes care of this I'm I think maybe what we'll do if the Commission entertain this is real break to get food and then come back for mobility. I did have one Commissioner Bruegel. Thank you chair. I had a couple of questions or corrections regarding the minutes Should we talk about that now or in our regular session? You want to you want to eat food? Okay, that's fine. Okay. We're gonna take a recess right now and and get some food and we'll be back Thank you, it's 16 618 and we're going to call the work session back in order to hear continuing on the mobility report So what I'm gonna try to do over the next couple minutes is hit the highlights of the questions I heard when you're discussing and a lot of this you've seen before it's the same presentation last time But one of the things I want to point out is what's your current existing mobility plan looks like This is your current existing plan. That's it's really this is a mobility map. We're doing that's kind of a better way to say We're adopting a mobility map, but it's a plan It's a roadmap to the future and so this is just for some clarifications and of what it was now as you can see Some of these are not on here. I'm gonna walk through the different thought process we have and I'm gonna skip a couple slides of the stuff that May not be as important The first thing we looked at Was what are the roads are already approved? That already planned and the reason we want to look at this is because we want to see how this was going to affect the network So these roads in Brown are roads that we added but these are already planned developments that are approved That are the master plan communities and they're just the roads that are on their development plan so these are Really not roads that we came up with but we wanted to know how to connect to these roads because you knew at some point In time in the future these roads are good logical places to connect the outside network with And so basically we're matching already planned roadways The second item is we looked at where new ways are new road ways would go and these are the purple roads We basically were looking at the map and finding areas where connections could occur connectivity is one of the things that you'll notice is as you start building out your network one is what's the one the best ways to Improve mobility is connectivity So we started looking for how to connect existing roads those future MPC roads and get them on the map and so the purple roads are New roadways that we have identified and these most of these areas are future growth areas. There are a few Infill areas to increase connectivity Commissioner Bruegel, thank you chair. Are these these proposed new additions? Those are all going to be city maintained roads and not text out roads. Is that correct? These are all proposed city maintained roads. So is there So like the the future completion of loop 288 wouldn't be included on this But it was it was taken into consideration during the it was taking it we took into consideration text out roads I believe all the new roads that we identified on here On this purple map or not text out facilities, but the text out roads are considered the mobility plan because the arterial network of text That's a is the skeleton of Denton's mobility network Do you have a map perhaps where you have like an overlay of the proposed or projected? Completion of 288 so we can see kind of how it matches up Let me see This is the mobility map The mouse so here's 288 and After it gets to 380 it doesn't it's not It's no longer kind of a freeway type of facility on the west side It just turns into more of your primary arterial kind of your Boulevard section as opposed to access manage section And it follows through down to through Jim Crystal down to 2449 And like we talked about earlier, we looked at the alignment We looked at avoiding some of the gas wells in the area, but when that when the when the project actually Becomes a reality and people start studying alignment Engineering will get survey out there and start looking at where that roadway goes but this is based on our aerial photography and some other contours we have and Gaswell locations of where we'll put the location so it ties into to 2499 and comes back around And on the other side, it's pretty much there already. I mean So it doesn't quite loop all the way around Comes into vintage on the other side back to 377 Well 288 ever I'm sorry. Yeah, well the loop ever make a complete loop or is it just gonna be like that horseshoe shape From which time right now it looks like a horseshoe shape. Well, I mean you can follow it around as a little but it's course Commissioner Dadowitz Follow up I was under Wow, I was someone had mentioned to me that Mayhill will become part in parcel the loop 288 and Loop 288 will be renamed Lily and Miller is that something I misheard or because of the the loop is not necessarily the loop as we envisioned it way back when because of all the Entrances and exits of commercial property there. I'll have to stop the city staff. I hadn't heard that Mayhill actually runs parallel to loop 288. So may have will be a separate road primary or trail by itself It's not going to replace loop 288 loop. We're going to will stay as it is will be still be named loop 288 Yes, sir. Okay, and the may have it is maintained by text not which is 288 may have will be a city on Street. Okay, may Hill is a city on Street. Yes I want to make a comment From my limited development experience one of the advantages of us going ahead and doing this as as properties are developed in the future When these are shown then a developer has to make allotment for it only the right-of-way, but also pay for their share So it's advantageous to us as a city to look down the road and and try to plan as much as we can So as things develop it shifts some of the burden from city to developers. Is that correct? And that is very true and you know when we do the impact fees The impact fees are going to take care of some of the payments that have to be made for the right-of-way, etc So that would be the next step when we come back at you, okay Just took a bite Commissioner Rose. Thank you. Can can you forgive me for any ignorance? I am a new commissioner. So I haven't heard the presentation before kind of the first Couple days looking at this. Can you help me out and talk about how the future land use? that's been approved by the city goes into the development of the mobility plan Absolutely. What we did is we generated a computer model. The city's had water and wastewater models for years They haven't had a transportation model a lot of times it's been lying on the map So one of the big tasks of this was to actually see are we planning it appropriately are the number of lanes? We're putting out there appropriately is the connectivity appropriately So we took the future land use map that you're looking at and we populated into our community Model to project how much traffic is going to be generated based on what's approved in the comprehensive plan. I Appreciate the answer. My specific concern is actually echo ed by one of the individuals that emailed in is the Far East Proposed primary art material which is looks like post oak Accredits origination dissects rural zoning From just south of McKinney up just north of 380 That area on the future land use is all rural and I'm having a tough time getting my mind around how a potential six lane road Would help continue the development or future land use of a rural zoning Right One of the things to answer your question is we were looking at a connectivity of connecting Sherman Road to this to Down to the south through post oak and one of the things we 're looking at was right away And so we you're not going to go build a six lane road when the demands not there So what we were trying to obtain is the right away in that area for the potential to build it And if the right away is there you can only get right away one time and a lot of times one of the comments in The email was about bike Accommodation that becomes a popular bike route and if we get the right away Of a primary material if it never develops that way because this has to be studied every five years And so we went with that approach. We are looking for comments tonight. And so the approach of of north of say 3 80 or mingo you're talking about if we need to reevaluate that as maybe a Secondary arterial four lane facilities a six lane facility That is one of the comments we're looking for we got his email You know, we'd be interested in hearing the Commission's opinion on that particular roadway So well, I'll make a comment about it. I think it's very advantageous I'd much rather see us if it's reasonable to Plan for larger roads rather than smaller roads I think we all have experienced enough of the issues that we currently have in our city with smaller roads and the inability to get around When you go over east of here to the fast growth areas little elm Frisco and you drive out there and there's four and six Lane roads and you can just take off and go from one side of town to the other I would love to see that being here in our city of Denton to be able to get around Versus what we currently have of trying to keep everything small and then we don't have the option to come back later on and make The roads larger so I'm supporting maybe being a little wider a more right away and a little more flexibility than smaller for future growth Commissioner Roselle, I appreciate your insight and understanding the right away the potential to move greater the future land Map is for the next 15 years, so I'm not sure what's gonna grow to the half the next 15 years But I guess in trying to think about forward-thinking zoning if we have on the books and approval for a primary arterial specifically just south of McKinney Where I know last board meeting or commission meeting someone came in and wanted to put a tracked home neighborhood that's zoned as rural But we had it we rezoned it for it in our for I'm wondering if it sets a dangerous precedent that when he comes back for plating Although the the platyp potentially doesn't line up with the world's zoning what we already have in the books of primary arterial So it's very hard for us to defend the future land use of being rural if we have in the books that we're planning In the next so many years that well, it's going to be six lines anyways Let's go ahead and approve this in our four subdivision. Well now we've lost the integrity of the rule zoning in a whole So I understand what you're saying about Owning that right away that at the first time But I'm also it seems in direct conflict with what we're wanting to do for the next 30 years Our next 15 years 2030 in that rural development Commissioner Taylor Add to your both of your comments Often the rural Use is more of a placeholder. It's not so much that it is intended to be preserved perpetually in a rural use But it is that in the next 10 to 20 years we expect it to stay rural in character And so I don't think that we would generally prevent development in those areas But we wouldn't necessarily plan for a lot of intensive development, you know up off of Up, you know, just south of the dam or in areas like that So I think I think it's more like for for that 20 year period not that we must preserve this as rural Right, but just that we don't expect the same intensity of development there as we might have down off Ryan Road or something like that and As far as I do agree with the chair on the importance of getting The plan laid out and making sure that we can get those The right-of-way the dedication and so forth as we need it. I do have specific concerns about post oak I think that you know a better alignment would probably be Cooper Creek We don't need a large arterial next to an area that one of the few areas that will be permanently Low use low intensity use, you know, it's a large Can floodplain nature preserve it's never going to have a high traffic demand in that area If we move that over half a mile or so to the Cooper Creek which extends the Mayhill arterial You know that that provides the parallel connectivity and and then you can have nice little Neighborhoods on collectors branching off and they can back up to the nature preserve Instead of having a large road that might have a negative impact along the the nature preserve there. I Also, I've made this comment a few a few times in the past and I'll make it again tonight I there seem to be a lot a lot of very variance in how many roads and how intensive the roads are and What areas have a lot of collectors and what areas seem to have a tight grid of arterials? You know, so some of this is master plan like down to the southwest. That's all master plan. You can't do much to the northwest to my knowledge none of that is master planned and there's a I think a quarter mile a grid there of collectors and arterials between is that Ganser and The extension of you know right in that area near crumb So that's that's one of the kind of most densely laid out and none of those roads exist So we're planning for eight new roads in basically a one mile by one mile square area You know and then we have if you move over just due north you have gaps some of that's due to Creek But it's hard to tell it on this map on the north Bonnie Br ay and Then we have large areas To the northeast where there's just nothing at all There's two miles with a mile wide area with no roads and I understand there is a creek in there And it's not all in the city yet, but we have other roads that are outside of city limits indicated so I worry about the variability in road density and you know layout In our previous conversations. I was told that basically an engineer different engineers took different quadrants of the city and Just kind of looked at things like gas wells and creeks and planned a section of the city But it seems like there there isn't a lot of consistency in how the got laid out Let me clarify that it was not different engineers What we did was we divided the city into four different quadrants the same group looked at it. It included the traffic engineer people from engineering our traffic superintendent People went out drove around and a lot of these guys are already out on the town all the time So they know where we have traffic issues and where we have connectivity issues So that data came from them, which is a field data that was then You know wetted with the model also When we ran the model, so that's how the overall model came about You know to answer one question for you it is not really a 15 year plan This is a built out condition based on the land use That has been done by your consultant for the comp plan amendment. So it takes that fully developed condition So the traffic generation that you see That was done from the model is for the full built out condition Be that 2050 2070 2100 Based on that land use so there is enough traffic that is generated that's coming on that road That it could be sustained by a secondary arterial But as you know the desire was to keep the primary arterial by staff also so that we have the right away In case we need to build a secondary primary arterial there Thank you The thought process behind road that has gotten the comment in email is like I said We can only get right away one time and so our thought is is if that did say of rural contents And you want to have nice bar ditches and some other stuff to make it kind of that rural feel even if you were right In the road it takes a little bit more right away to do that So even we're unfortunate it's called a principal arterial primary to mainly to preserve the right away. It's not necessary There's no plan to build that road of six lanes right now, but I mean like I said the the comment of maybe going over to Cooper Creek the idea is we want to connect the goal was to connect mingo somehow to Sherman and That alignment hasn't actually been studied yet So we looked at a map and this is what we came up with on our first stab But there are other alternatives that should be evaluated deeper, but it can be moved in the alignment routing study The plan is to try to get a connection Thank you before I recognize Commissioner does we're about five minutes past when we're supposed to start I think we'll go up to about another five minutes about 640 and then we will have to cut this off and take it back up So Commissioner Dudowitz. Yeah. Thank you chair. I think again. This is another reason for Must be delaying and looking at this in more detail because again this mayhill issue is a major art It's going to be what a major tear arterial and it dead ends on 380 and then it just north of that where Cooper Creek starts it's a Secondary and that would be a primary look at taking that road right straight up and make it the same six or two four to six lanes It dead ends right at 380 and Cooper Creek right now is a two-lane country bumpkin Road Which is just right there is north of that intersection So I mean that's you know looking at that post oak issue versus the Copper Creek. I I think That makes more sense. But as we get into the details of this we're picking up these little things We never have had the ability to get into the to some of these things even though they're conceptual To give feedback to you to consider other alternatives Anybody else I'm gonna make a final comment From my understanding what most of these are when we have the the names whether they're primary arterial sector We're mostly talking about the right away And the size that we're taking and I know some of our New commissioners weren't here for the cross sections that were presented probably a couple two three months ago Where you all came and made a number of different cross sections of you could have a two-lane road or a three-lane road some of the size of the sidewalks Bike lanes whether they were included in the street or whether they were outside the street and so really rather than at least my Interpretation and comment is it mostly they're not designing streets that this is going to be a six-lane road It could be but mostly what we're doing is taking a certain amount size right away Or what those sections can be and that the appropriate time in the future as the city continues to develop the engineering department will then make those design criteria of whether it's a four-lane road six-lane road Pending what the right away is is that a fair assessment of anywhere? You're trying to go pretty much on track and one of the reason we want to build a model So when development occurs in the rural area we can confirm and actually put the development that's coming in and Understand whether it should be the six line or four lane, but have we know the right away right now We're taking our our best steps of preserving the right away that we need great. We feel like we need So really this isn't actually saying that these roads are going to be a six-lane road We're just talking about the right away that we're taking that we could do up to that Amount and then the design comes at some point in the future Well, I think to answer your question is like definitely the fringes is true But if a development was to come in they would look at this our map But this is a living document and if someone decides to analyze at that time They have the right to change whether it's a four or six lane based on whatever study that they do correct Just like what we're doing tonight when we look at this we have several things from old mobility plans that are being removed And now I've been determined they were on the map. We no longer need them And so that's the same thing that will ultimately happen with this at some point in the future and other commissions look at this down The road. Yeah, we had several downgrades That we have downgraded because we the development changed from what we anticipated or what was anticipated Great Anybody else before we wrap up Commissioner Hesford? I would like to request Can I get something to read regarding that process of right away? That sort of thing how that works. I'm not familiar with that mechanism So just a general overview how over right away is work is it? Okay, so please sure It's 640 and we're going to adjourn the The work session and reconvene in council chambers Good evening and welcome to the October 21st 2015 planning and zoning meeting for the city of Denton It is 645 This meeting has been duly posted and we have a quorum present Call the meeting to order and we will begin with our pledge to the US flag followed by the Texas flag The First item on our agenda tonight is the approval of the minutes We have a motion request to speak Chair I had a couple of corrections. I wanted to make the minutes please if I could Commissioner Bruegel, thank you, sir on page three line five There's The word not is missing. So for example, it said on the plaque It's a The word not is missing. So for example, it said on the plat in a grayed-out color to indicate the neighboring guess Well, she stated she did see that on this plat. I did actually not see that on that plot. That's my first correction My second one Is I believe on page nine? Yeah on page nine After lines 26 and 27. I would like it if there could be something added to the minutes As we were looking at the believe it was a rezone request for from rural to NR for and there was someone who came to the meeting to talk about there was a gas pipeline that went through there and Just brought up some more questions. What I wanted to get added to the minutes, please was that I made Clarification to the rest of the Commission that what we were doing was looking specifically at a rezone request and not the the Site plan that had been presented to us because that gas pipeline at that point would come into play as we're looking at that And I just think that was an important omission that should be reincluded. Thank you Commissioner Daddowitz, thank you chair. There's an Missing element to my discussion page two lines 29 through 33 and when and subsequently 34 to 38 when I asked Staff Earl Escobar with regard to do does anyone on staff have a liaison relationship with text on? The answer I believe was no and that is missing here And then I suggested that we would have a proposed future meeting possibility with text out to understand their time and development of various roads within our jur ors both in our area, especially Expansion of Teasley and that's not in this So if we can review that the tapes or whatever I believe that that was a lengthy discussion, but it's not in the minutes Just a clarification both Commissioner Daddowitz and Commissioner Bruegel Are you all comfortable with staff making the corrections to minutes with your comments? Or do you want to table this until those corrections are made to bring it back since those are fairly lengthy comments on both of those Items regarding my comments. I'm comfortable with that. I 'll leave it to you Commissioner Daddowitz The having staff make the corrections. Yes, I'll be comfortable with that. Okay In that request to speak Commissioner Taylor with those two corrections. I move we approve the minutes for our last meeting Commissioner Rizel, I'll second that The first and second call for a vote on the board I Motion carries 7-0 move us to our consent agenda Chair would entertain a motion Commissioner Duddlewood's I move to approve The consent agenda as posted Commissioner Beck I second the motion have a first and a second and call for vote on the board The motion carries 7-0 Moves us to item 4 items for individual consideration I Correct turn this over to an offer introduction of this item today Thank You chair chairperson strange if you recall at the last meeting the PNC had requested that an item be Placed on the agenda for individual consideration to act on creation of a subcommittee in order to evaluate city initiated rezoning That would be in conformance with the comp plan comp plan 2030 That being said this item is before you to nominate and appoint members from this commission to serve on this sub committee Clarification how many members are we going to be? Discretionary up to you You have two motions the first motion would be for the creation the second motion would be for the nomination in the election The request was the Commissioner Tyler. Thank you. Could we get a little further clarification on? This is the first time since I've been on this body that we formed a subcommittee So we'd have a mode just a motion to create a subcommittee and then open the floor to nominations Take nominations and then ratify those nominations. So that 's that's correct. There's no written procedure in our charter or Administrative code provision, but we do adopt the Roberts rules of procedure and those rules Allow the PNC to establish a subcommittee for these purposes. There is no rule concerning how many nominations you may make But that's the way that we'll probably do it tonight we'll just go ahead and do the motion whether or not you want it first created and That would be voted on and then we would go to an open discussion of nominations Commissioner Donald Woods within the nomination process Can commissioners suggest that they would love to be on that or like to be on that? So it helps the process Yes, now you I heard you indicate that there's no set number No, but I would recommend I think for the gas we had usually two people that would go and work together You know, maybe three if if you're worried about a tie breaker or whatever That's my recommendation to you I would have fewer rather than more They with staffs input chair would entertain a motion if we want to look at creating the subcommittee first Commissioner Taylor I Move that we create a subcommittee in order to evaluate city initiated rezoning in conformance with the Denton plan 2030 Commissioner Dudley's I second the motion Have a first and a second and we'll call for a vote on the board I That motion carries 7-0 since we have now created a sub committee We'll now discuss how many members are going to serve Commissioner Rozelle, thank you chair. I was wondering if it's possible or allowed by a show of hands to see who would be Wanting to serve in this subcommittee just so we know where nominations can maybe be be levied Is that possible? Can I request a show of hands if he would be interested in the subcommittee then? Sure Show hands who'd like to serve Commissioner was L. Are you not interested because I'm I'm just kind of curious I think you've brought up some really good points about some some of the rural. No, I sincerely do I think you brought up some very good points in your time on the Commission. Would you be interested in serving as well? Sure, yes I'm nominating you Okay, did we decide the number I was gonna ask I think before we do the nominations the chair would like to get Motion or suggestion of the number of persons to serve to form in this committee Subcommittee Commissioner Dudowitz I would recommend that we have three You make an emotion the motion would be that we create a subcommittee with three members of this commission, okay Commissioner Hudson second the motion. Okay. We have a motion on the floor to have three members appointed to the subcommittee Here we will we have a first and a second we will call for a vote on the board The motion carries 7-0 Chair is now going to open it for nominations for three members to serve Would it be as a clarification from staff? Would it be? More appropriate to serve. I mean it's to nominate three people at one time or just to nominate them one at a time. I Think it's more appropriate to do it one at a time. We'll do it one at a time Commissioner Dudowitz, I I believe my That's leftover from my previous request to speak so okay Commissioner Brigham. Okay. Well, I was gonna make three nominations, but I'll just do them one at a time. I Would like to nominate Commissioner Taylor for the sub committee. I think this this was his initiative. I think he 's got a great eye for it He's got a good attention to detail and it could be a great fit Thank You Commissioner Will we do these as a Doom individually then what are these as a motion in a second and then call for a vote on nominations? We can in fact that's more clear on the record But I'm going to leave it up to you whether or not you want to get three and then just move on the three Okay, as long as you have a consensus I'll take the nomination for another subcommittee member to serve Commissioner Taylor. Thank you chair. I would nominate Commissioner Dudowitz to serve as well Thank you Commissioner Brigham and I would also like to nominate Commissioner Roselle. I think in his time on P&Z He's brought up some really good points about future land use. I think you'd be a good fit. Thank you We have three members nominated Does anybody have another member that they would like to nominate and then we can Can look at whether we will do these individually or whether we will do these as three? Seeing that we have three members That are for consideration for our three-person sub committee the chair would enter a motion Commissioner Bruegel. Thank you chair. I move approval of the subcommittee with members commissioners Taylor Roselle and Dudowitz as the members Commissioner Beck I second the motion we have a first and a second. We'll call for a vote on I Motion carries 7-0. I Will move us on to our public hearings Chair wants to make a clarification. We're going to have one item. We're going to change the order this evening We're going to be moving item B Fr. 15 up to the first item to be discussed And then item a will become item B. So I'm going to Okay a point of order we also have a third item for public hearing if anybody's waiting for this the razor ranch item C has been tabled at this time Just to let you know if you are waiting for that item that has been tabled With that clarification we will then move on and open the public hearing for I'm sorry. This is just a point for the record when you say table. Do you mean postponed to? postpone to date certain Okay Well a clarification we talked about this earlier do we need a motion for that or just to state it here on the record this time I think that you can state it on the record at this time We'll stick with what we discussed earlier We're going to state it that it is going to be continued to our November 4th 2015 meeting that is a razor ranch item and we will now move on to item Fr. 15 - 0 0 2 I'm going to go ahead and open the public hearing for this item Thank You chairperson. I'm going to ask Julie Wyatt with the planning department to make the presentation for the final replant of Ashroom addition lot 1 or block a thank you Julie Good evening. I'm Julie Wyatt associate planner with the city of Denny Tonight I'm presenting at fr 1520 Ashroom addition The request is to consider a right a final replant of the Ashroom addition It's a replant of lot 1 block a and they're taking in some additional unplatted property Section 212 of the Texas local government code does require a public hearing for all replants Here is the plot. This is the this is the original platted tract. They're adding in some previously unplatted property in order to Locate a shade structure in that area The plot hat does meet the technical requirements of the Denton development code and staff does recommend approval of this plot Any questions for staff Commissioner Briegel. Thank you chair. I was just curious. Is this the yoga hut or is this the Denton yoga center? I Think it's the yoga head. I Was just curious The applicant is has no bearing whatsoever on how I'm gonna judge on this I just was very curious because they're both right there Kindali yoga ashroom, okay more yoga is always good Kundalini, okay. Thanks. I was just curious. Thank you Now see any other question this is a public hearing is there anyone here that would like to speak on this side Anyone that would like to speak on this side Seeing none we will close the public hearing and the chair will entertain a motion Commissioner Beck I move that we approve FR 15 0020 Commissioner Briegel. I'll second that We have a first and a second we'll call for a vote on the board I Motion carries 7-0 That will move us back to our item Pz 15 - 0 1 6 We will open the public hearing and ask for staff presentation. Thank you chair I'm going to ask Jeff Whitaker to make the presentation on the city of Denton's mobility plan and provide an update Good evening Commission. My name is Jeff Whitaker. I'm the project manager on the didn't mobility plan impact free study And I'm with Kimmy Horn associates and I'm gonna give you a presentation to outline the progress we made and give you some updates in the mobility plan So why are we updating the mobility plan? One is didn't currently has a mobility plan. It's an existing roadway network plan It's a map towards the future as you can see in the map in front of you The existing mobility plan consists of a primary major arterial secondary arterial and collector facilities That's the current design standards that are adopted within the city didn't we're not looking at modifying those we're looking down on elaborating on this current mobility plan at this time So why to update the mobility mobility plan one is to determine the current capacity of the existing streets That's already used up. We want to know how much of the capacity of the existing roadway networks used up I think is you drive around the city You can kind of take a guess on some of the roads of where we may need some extra capacity but we want to actually quantify that we wanted to add the approved streets are already approved for the Approved NPC such as the hills of Denton Coles Ranch and how to ranch the reason we wanted to do this is we want to Make sure we were planning how to connect to them in the future And if they're on a map we can know how to connect to them in the future We also want to look at upgrading downgrading some streets based on the projected traffic volumes The I believe the last of the real last thorough update was done in 2000 to the mobility plan. There's been some Several minor updates over the last couple years But we wanted to take a good hard look to see is what we were planning back in 2000 adequate either too much or too little We wanted better realign some of the streets in the existing mobility plan to improve traffic movement and by that's really connectivity We were looking at key locations of the city where there's opportunities to connect and we want to preserve those opportunities to connect Some opportunities if you don't put them on the map they go away and there's no connection that will occur in the future Another one is to develop a build-up condition roadway network scenario And one of the reasons we wanted to do this and it was important this is we're currently going through an impact fee study Process and we wanted to make sure that the roadmap we were using is adequate to support the next five years And one thing that's important about that state law requires us to review this mobility plan every five years Along with the impact fee so every five years we required this mobility plan But we can look at it on a weekly basis if we wanted to every development that comes in we have ability to look at that So one of the key components of this mobility plan that wasn't done in private previous years was the develop of what we call a trans CAD model trans CAD is just a software. That's the software that we use to develop the mobility plan It's actually the same software that the North Central Texas Council of Governments the MPO Uses to run the region-wide model The reason we wanted to do that is because we wanted our models to be able to speak to each other in case they ever needed to and we can share information between the regional planning Commission and then So what the model helps us do it helps us to understand the existing carry capacity of the roadway network And it also allows us to understand the future carrying capacity on the roadway network We calibrated this model It's one of the tougher steps of our project is we wanted to make sure the existing model matched close as it could Within an adopted there's an adopted standard by Federal Highway Administration that says your mallard your models adequately calibrated And the model from didn't is actually meets those standards Which is not every model you work on we can say that on but then we were able to say that Why were we able to do that in some models? We don't have enough data to do that and then we counted a hundred and eleven locations and the map you see the black dots or locations One thing to note is text dot roads are not shown on these locations That's because text dot maintains their own count system. We were able to get their data So we have more than a hundred and eleven locations if you add in the textile locations So those existing traffic counts are what we use to calib rate the model So that's what we compared our model to what the existing was and then we looked at the future land use plan We use the comp plan that was recently adopted in the didn 't 2030 plan and loaded our demographics into the model network And projected traffic in the future So the development of the mobility plan map really came in three stages on top of the modeling we really looked at as I mentioned The master plan communities then we looked to see working to key new roads And then we once we had those we ran the model again and wanted to see where upgrades and downgrades could occur So as the map in front of you shows the brown roads are the new roads. These are the master plan community roads These are simply us just updating the map. They're already approved and we want to make sure that they're adequately Put in the model for two reasons. We want to make sure that the capacity that those Facilities are providing are shown and reflected in our in our network, but also to make sure that we connect to in the future The new roads we laid out and a lot of the new roads are put into areas where there's not much development out there because they Have opportunity for new roads Many times if we could always relay out our cities We might relay our cities differently so we were trying to learn from previous layouts and other communities and how we laid out this network So we laid out various networks for the new roadways And then how do we determine the updates this is where we really use the model We want to make sure that what's going to load and we also use the land use plan We want to know what volumes are on the model today What volumes in the model are going to be in the future in some areas the model the volumes don't increase actually some areas the volumes Actually could go down a little bit because more roads are built as more roads have built some traffic shifts connectivity land use land use is important we wanted to make sure we understood the land use out there we want to make sure the roadways can match the land use and there are existing conditions and constraints and some roadways we In some roads we probably want to have eight lanes if we could because there's too much capacity on it but we don't have the right of way to do that and the buildings are in front so there's constraints we have to deal with I just wanted to give you two examples the first is an what we call an upgrade Jim Crystal Road was evaluated And what you see on this map is green if you're familiar looking at them didn't mobility plan which I've looked at a lot of the last year Green means secondary arterial red means primary arterial It's the color indication so on the back it shows green that's what Jim Crystal used to be its current class was a secondary arterial When we ran the model there was a lot of traffic that's eventually in that industrial area gonna go towards I-35 and from Marsh Branch to I-35 It really needed some extra capacity to deal with the turning movements at I-35 So one of our recommendations was to upgrade Jim Crystal Road and so for all the upgrades and downgrades We went for every road pretty much in the city of Denton that's on the mobility plan we went through this exercise Just some of them did not change. We've only identified the ones that have changed On the opposite end we looked at a road called Nottingham it runs through a residential area It's currently on the thorough for plan as a secondary arterial. It doesn't show the volumes need to be a secondary arterial It's land use context really doesn't Encourage a secondary arterial. It's a neighborhood type of facility as well as it's got some limited right away constraints And so we we recommend downgrading Nottingham really to match what the land use was out there And so on the map in front of you All the blue roadways are where we had upgrades most of the upgrades you'll see are in future areas and one of the reasons we're looking at that is we aired a little bit on the heritage and caution if it was close to the threshold of need and upgrade we kind of went with The philosophy of getting the right away now and most of those are in the areas of new roadways Downgrades those are the areas like I just mentioned on Not tingham where we felt like the facility did not need to be what the current thorough for plan was And then we had some realignments just we were looking at the alignments some of them are like Bonnie Bray It's being designed right now. It's being realigned so we 're matching the alignment that's being designed currently so some of those are realignments When we put all these different maps together we get a Post mobility plan ultimately the mobility plan is going to look very similar to what you saw at the first slide We're gonna match that but this is to communicate what we changed the yellow slides are up when you see yellow behind a road That means that's been an updated facility that means the classifications change or it's been realigned when you see pink That means it's a new facility, but a new facility could mean an NPC it could mean It's a brand new roadway Those were just to let everyone know when they're looking at this maps that if there's something highlighted behind it That's what's changed since the last time they looked since the current existing map One thing that we did and we wanted to show this slide. This is the result of our chance-gap model one thing you note And this is a common occurrence across all of Texas is you 're never going to necessarily build yourself out of congestion That's why other mechanisms are port and connectivity Walking etc. So you'll see in the core central area You'll see some red red usually means that it's not the great level service because there's not as much room to widen roadways So we have to figure out other ways to accommodate that but one thing that's positive when we ran the results of this model Is that we had the delay and congestion of today's environment? And we added all the language we have in the future and we built this new updated model and the delay slightly went down So that means we building a lot. We're building roads We're also adding a lot of people and there was a reduction in delay from what you see today And that doesn't always happen a lot of time when you add a lot of Growth even if you're building roads You can't keep up with it, but your plan at least kept up with today's environment Which was a positive thing when we tested it against the current mobility plan. It was about 40% worse So if you will we're saving about 40% with the recommendations that we're making on this plan in delay So one of the we've worked on this plan to a little history We probably I think first was in this plan back in January time frame And we've been working on with various members of the community fed several calls as well as Several meetings with you guys already as well several meetings with the mobility mobility and council committee so with this staff is looking for comments as part of the public hearing as well as Staff is recommending approval to propose mobility plan that's presented. So with that open any questions that you have or public hearing Commissioner Bruegel, thank you chair mr. Whitaker And I'm probably gonna have more questions later as well, but I'll just start with these couple ones You use the example of Nottingham being downgraded from a secondary arterial to a collector street I'm curious. Will there be any city initiated? Projects to calm traffic on that street since there is it is in a residential neighborhood. It's going to be a collector There's a park there. I know you can designate it as a collector But if it's built as a four lane highway going through a neighborhood people are gonna speed down it So I'm curious. Are there gonna be any? City initiated or I'm sorry, maybe and maybe this would be a better question Purpose of this the map we are dedicating it to be a collector which would lead it towards a different type of desired speed Etc so that would lead to be more open to those type of things now, right? So p is p.s here. Could you could you answer that for me, please sir is And if there's not a city initiated traffic calming Device what what what would neighbor what would the neighbors have to do to initiate? Yeah, normally the process that the traffic engineers follows is that the neighborhood actually approaches That there is issue here on the street. They would like to see some action They will go and conduct a study. They look at the traffic They look at the speeds and then based on that they will come back and do some actual construction Okay So so in the case when any street in the city is downgraded If the neighborhood would like to calm traffic on that they would approach someone in the engineering department or they would approach Yes, the traffic engineer. Okay. All right. Thank you. My second question is I served on the bike plan years and years ago. And so I I'm sorry. I should know this answer as I understand it when we are building a when we are rebuilding a street not just paving it over But we as we did like on Jago several years ago We we dug it up and we rebuilt it and we put we we put the bike The Sharos there because that was part of the bike plan. I 'm curious when we're building these new streets That are proposed in the mobility plan. What are the requirements for building? Designated bike lanes not a wide outside lane or a share. But what are the requirements for a designated bike lane and also? sidewalks for these new these new builds The designated bike lanes would be on those areas where we already have a bike plan approved by the city So if the bike plan is already there the engineers when they design the street, they will take that into account if When we go through the context sensitive process Which is still part of the consultant charge at this time. We will continue to work on that process with the mobility committee and the council to see how much if there's acceptance of these CSS process if that is becomes part of the Design tool then in that case using the CSS process which we touched base on in one presentation I had done to you all earlier The neighborhood and the stakeholders will be contacted. There'll be a meeting based on the stakeholder input You will come up with what is the best? use for that particular street based on the neighborhood Requirements and the constraints that are there on that street based on the right away based on the traffic so there would be so the engineering department would have like a neighborhood meeting with People in that area when they're when you're when you're proposing a new road to go through there and they could help the neighborhood Can then help design that street? That will happen if the CSS process is adopted by the city council Okay, if it is not adopted then basically whatever cross- section we have if there is no Bike lane designated as part of the overall plan then they would not design that as a bike lane in there and how do you? The use of the CSS process is approved by City Council. Is that part of this mobility plan? Is that it is not it's not part of the mobility plan. It is just a standalone Item there as part of the consultant work effort So we still have to know we are trying to get this mobility plan and the road impact free process done And then we will continue on with the CSS process. We had one presentation to the mobility committee We need to go back and do a kind of a workshop to them So they understand how this will work as if they will sit there like stakeholders in the workshop And they will put their comments in and then come out with okay. This is what the section looks like This is the best so that process if it is accepted by the council It will become part of the ordinance. So later on if the city is going to rehab a street The CSS process will be one of the things that could be used there if the neighborhood desires that Instead of the same cross-section. We want to have a different cross section. Okay So that's that's something separate that City Council would see that planning and zoning wouldn't necessarily see yes, that is correct. Okay Thank you. Appreciate it Commissioner Rosal Thank You chair I'm currently looking at the current mobility map and highlighted as yellow green and red streets The green indicating existing road not to class standard can Staff or someone walk me through how the prioritization of correcting this happens Is there priority over the new roads that need to be built or how does? I'm trying to understand that's a lot of green roads that we are identifying or not up to class standard Is there a plan of action or how do you prioritize? Getting those roads up to class standard Not up to class standard means that the road is designated to be a primary or a secondary arterial Which is either a six lane or a four lane highway, but currently it is not so if it is currently not to that classification then over time And this is where the mobility plan comes in and the model comes into play With the model that has now we already have it as a tool now We know what streets are the most affected where the level of service is the lowest So using that data when we do bond sales later on to have capacity projects Those streets could be targeted that okay. These are the roads where we have the worst condition right now So we need to spend the money and bring them up to the standard so it's based on Condition and traffic patterns those two things with traffic Yeah condition is if the traffic is not there But the condition has gone down the OCI rating has gone down Then city would spend some money just to bring the condition up the structure condition. Okay. Thank you Commissioner Dudowitz a question you mentioned a mobility committee. Could you tell me who's on that committee, please? Identify them as staff and or citizens is comprised of three council members three council members Any other questions for staff Thank you This is a public hearing we do have some cards The first card I'm a call on is our friend Brian Bentley good to see you back Brian you only get three minutes First we need to talk about the area over near Clear Creek As a matter of a point of order we need a name and an address There we go, all right Well, okay. My name is Brian Bentley 2528 Jamestown didn't Texas and You know, I'm pretty crazy kind of foolish at times and I'm gonna prove to you tonight that I am because If I were to support this mobility plan, I could make money on it But now since I'm going to speak against it and if I can get you to deny it, I will lose some money So because sometimes it's more important the overall goal than to just make money And the point is over here at Clear Creek and I'm really sad that we don't have a big blow up of it But it's a over you go up Mingo when you turn up Collins Can we get a big map of that corner? There we go, okay well First off, let me point out that these maps that engineering is showing you in engineering. I'm not knocking them They do a good job of doing things on paper They don't go out in the field and see the real world sometimes First off they're showing a lot of this land out here as city. Well, maybe it might be in the future But right now it's actually counting. It's not city limits So you you get a skewed idea you think it you're looking at something that's in the city, but it's not it's actually in County and Where Clear Creek comes in here? There are three big ran ches out there and Some names are so big they don't have to worry about money. So I'm not I'm not Convinced they're too eager to sell out But you'll notice that this if you look at the history of Clear Creek it if I remember right the year was 1956 when the agreements were made on that it's 2900 acres and It took a restoration effort to restore Clear Creek And and yet now engineering wants to put a six lane arter ial Right beside Clear Creek now. I actually happen to own 10 acres that back up to Clear Creek and That six lane road would actually connect right on to the edge of my property And I would end up with 10 acres of frontage on a six lane arterial well, yes, that would be worth a lot of money to me, but We started a process 60 years ago to preserve this area and I think it's more important to stick with our original plan We do need a road going north and south but it can go over to Cooper Creek it can go further west Why do we want to put a six lane right up against a nature preserve that we've worked 60 years? to rebuild and preserve also The nature preserve is all in the floodplain. It's owned by Corps of Engineers. It will never be developed So we're going to put all this infrastructure Right over against something where there is no possibility for development on that side of the property on that side of this road so To me it makes sense to move it to the west where we can develop on both sides get higher taxes on both sides and if you've been out there you know I I had I Had does in my front yard that Nestled in the bushes and slept out there all the time. I got deer. I got turkeys. I got all kinds of stuff and It just it just doesn't make sense There any questions for Commissioner bit or ex-commissioner Bentley, excuse me Okay, thank you for your comments we have this is a public hearing also have a card from mr. Leo Miller Leo Miller 3091 Swisher Road and really have more questions and it's not for y'all, but if you can steer me in a direction Some of these roadways and the mobility plan Don't have the right away existing some of it the right away is being granted as developments are happening where the developer Just is not required To develop that road. It's obviously going to be a city funded thing who Dedicates determines that I think you mentioned bonds those type of things How do I go find out and push to get certain things on certain bond issues? Who would I talk to about that? See if staff can answer that question for you I would actually refer to PS Aurora. He's with he's sitting right behind you actually and please exchange I know PS so I'll ask him what I saw here. I thought I would just take a couple minutes of his time, but other question on some of the level of services maps There are some yellows and reds and various good and bad grades, but there's very Specific corner or area that's being affected by a school and the decision to drop off Children in the back with automobiles where was designed for buses where there's infrastructure in the front to go there What I need to do is get the city the police and the DISD all on the same page because they're all pointing to each other Saying it's somebody else's issue Who I think we talked about the traffic engineer for the city's perspective who is that? Turn that over said I Don't know the name of the traffic engineer. Yeah, who would I call to start with I mean? I will take your information and I will get back with you with the right point of contact for all the information that you need All my information is on the card superb. I will get with you tomorrow and we will get you in point in the right direction Commissioner Taylor, thank you chair. Could you could you specify what neighborhood? I'm really not in a neighborhood. It's villages of Carmel preserves Pecan Creek Elementary school sits between Lakeview and old part of Swisher with Edwards East and West and Pokers page pokers page new post of all funnels into the backside of Pecan Creek Elementary, which is clearly marked service vehicles buses only all the signage is the infrastructure the drive etc are all built for service vehicles and buses the front of Pecan Creek Elementary school faces Lakeview which has two lanes north two lanes south Easily during certain amount of times during the day that one lane can be dedicated for a lot of students And I get that there's a lot of students I've talked to the principal and they're doing the best they can but for about an hour In the morning about an hour in the afternoon every day that intersection is locked down somebody has a fire somebody has a heart attack Police need to get through there. It's not going to happen So thank you Thanks This is a public hearing is there anyone else that would like to come and speak on this item Seeing none we do have a couple of emails And I think I'll just acknowledge the two people who have sent those to identify them we have one email for the record from Brian Bentley and then we have a second email from Patty Hayworth and I'll include those as part of our public record Anyone else that would like to speak on this item before close Seeing none I will close the public hearing on this item And I'll open the floor to commissioners for discussion or emotion Commissioner Beck I'm gonna step out of the way here and I 'm gonna make a motion we table this item Had a lot of explaining things explaining the workshop and this is not a knock against the staff at all I think I do a great job. I love this plan in general But as I say the the devil's in the details and I guess being new is part of what I'm running up against here I just feel like we need just a little more. I need a little more time to look at this thing a little bit more thoroughly So I motion that we table that The chair would ask you to clarify your motion. Do you have a date that you would like to table this to? If a month isn't too long I'd like to push it up a month Not this not the next PNZ meeting but the meeting after that That's our second meeting in November we'll get the date certain on that Commissioner hudspeth I would second that motion to give me an opportunity to review the Some information we discussed in the work session November 18th, just for the record that meeting will be november the 18th We have a first and a second And we have some additional discussion Commissioner Dudowitz, just clarification that motion is to have a public hearing Or to have another work session for Commissioners I wasn't I didn't get the this would be a post-public for the public here. You mean clear well, and it would hope it'd be discussed or in the work session to Followed by the public session. Okay, then I'd like to I don't know if there's any Formal process here to amend his motion that we have a kept a commission's Work session dedicated to this for our new commissioners and for any other further questions prior to the the public meeting Question for staff will we have time to be able to do that at our next meeting or would it need to be the second meeting? And then we will be taking this action on If we can meet earlier Prior to five we can actually start addressing some of the questions that the commission has I would have to clarify with ps in his schedule to make sure they can attend Okay My concern if I may commissioner dunham If we do it during a normal work session if we would have enough time So we may need to do a separate one or start an earlier meeting for I wouldn't be opposed to that Okay, um just to throw this out and staff can give direction on this We've had in the past some special call meetings To deal with issues in the past and it may be appropriate if we are tight on time And this is a something that needs to move forward That is that something that we should consider to have a special call for this? Absolutely We can start coordinating with yourselves on availability and set up some a special called meeting or a few special called meetings to address this Okay, and if Let me chime in on that as well. Thank you chair. I would actually prefer if we could maybe meet Instead of meeting earlier because those of us who have jobs and kids it's difficult sometimes to get here in by five Um, so I know in the past what we've done is we've met since we meet every other wednesday We just we've got wednesdays kind of blocked out Perhaps we could meet, you know at five or five thirty on another wednesday in between sessions If we wanted to workshop this more I would I would request that as a working mom that be helpful. Thank you Would it be appropriate staff to go ahead and try to set a date or I don't know what sort of public notice We need to give for that meeting This will not be a public hearing the public hearing from what i'm understanding tentatively has get placed on the tape As a motion is for november 18th prior to that If someone can pull a calendar we can actually go ahead and select the wednesday dates now Is this something we will need to specify in this motion or can we just leave it as a As a special call meeting date to be determined for mr. Dud owitz's november 11th would be the day Would be a special called session and it would just require the regular 72 hour agenda posting It wouldn't push the public hearing back because the public hearing would be on the on the 18th. So this would be the week prior And and i'm sorry just to clarify is there a an amendment to the motion on the record I was going to ask What was your amendment amendment is to have a a work session prior to the The public meetings that we could spend time discussing among ourselves and you want to give us that date November the 11th is that the date? Whatever date is I understand they have to look at staff has to look at options I'll leave it up to staff to identify a date of a wednesday in between Okay We can either do um the amendment or commissioner beck may want to amend his motion to Have that special call on the 11th Okay, guide me here and then I I agree with what commissioner dotter was saying if we could have that time set aside Or we could discuss it What I need to do to do that to amend my own so you modify your motion. Okay, then i'm accommodate mr Dudowitz's, okay, I move to uh Modify my motion to uh, it doesn't require separate motion. You just make the statement that you've modified it. Okay, I do and the second I think Commissioner husband, do you agree with that? I do Okay With with all of that discussion. Do we need a restatement of the motion over there? Well, let's we're not quite done with amendments. Okay commissioner taylor Thank you chair In order to Get some work done before we get to our meetings on this I would like to bring up a few issues that we've identified in work session in the public hearing and these can either be comments or if we want to amend them into The motion to postpone either way So I think context sensitive design has has been mentioned by staff and I think that's the key that we're looking at here So we want to make sure that the local contexts are Are appropriate for the roadways that are being planned and we've identified post oak Near the clear creek natural heritage center possibly real igning that to cooper creek Or some similar realignment There are also around hickory creek on the south side of town we have Hickory creek forms another large barrier and there are not parallel Arterials or large collectors along hickory creek. There are short segments East west that that kind of stair step down So i'd ask that we look at and there might not be any feasible options, but we look at options for an arterial or arterials that parallel the north and south sides of the hickory creek floodplain area It's also the map that is in the the existing mobility plan map shows airports rail floodplains And other major barriers and that helps give us context helps us understand the context So we go why isn't there a road there? Oh, well, there's a half mile wide floodplain there Or there's a railroad track or there's an airport. So in our next presentation I would like them the future mobility plan map to include major limiting factors like rail airport floodplain large esas and an additional map or overlay Showing the future land use map. I think that would be good for context for all of us we can see What we expect like we can in our heads understand somewhat the demand That is that the model is showing by saying that's rural. That's commercial There's an airport there things like that And then specifically two more hot spots the area around pecan creek elementary that does have A connectivity issue and if there is any way to alleviate that there might not be because of the built structure out there But i'd like to at least have that addressed as to what could be done or why it can't be done And then also around sam houston elementary. I don't believe the model shows that as a red level of service But it it is Just because of the local traffic patterns So that would be teesley in the miller miller area. It shows red or does it show red there? Okay So those are those are all the things I would like to To have at our special call meeting I think the chair feels like those can just be addressed in that special call rather than needing to be added to unless you feel Like you would like to okay Anybody else Do we need to have the motion restated is there by clear on what we're doing with the tabling and then a special meeting, okay? Seeing none have a first and a second and we'll call for a vote on the board Chair Did did we establish the date for that yet was it no did I hear november the 8th 18th 18th 18th for the for the special Special session the 11th. Yeah And that was at five o'clock, I assume I think we'll get back with a time on those Thank you, thank you any other clarifications before I call the vote Uh, I believe we have already voted on that that item and it passed seven zero That moves us to our final item this evening, um Well, actually we have one other we're going to do a review of the project matrix And that that is not going to be a little bit here. No, that is not I I it's basically Uh, we attached this through our system for you to for your reference So should you have any questions or concerns in your concluding items that you wanted to bring up related to this we'd be happy to Are there any questions on the project matrix Commissioner brigle not a question, but just a comment. I just I find this very helpful. I really yeah Now I find this very helpful and I like seeing all the things at the bottom say completed completed It's really nice to see where we're at and what we've done and where we're going. So thank you Any other comments or questions on the matrix Okay, that will move us on to our concluding items Commissioner hudspeth Thank you chair So I would like to request information from staff specifically Regarding hoa's for our next session and i'd like to Get an understanding of liabilities to the city for costs in advance of if something were to Happen with the hoa that they can't fulfill their agreement So I I just want to discuss that I guess and so I don't know if that's a legal discussion or whatever during our next but but I just want to discuss Or get some information on how that process Goes forward and how we receive actual real dollars If that need arises I'd be happy to speak with you about that One-on-one, I don't know if the entire commission Wants to discuss any portion of that some of that is attorney client privilege That would be part of a closed session Some of it could be open session, but um, it's really up to the board whether or not they want that to hear that as a whole But i'll be happy to get with you and discuss it with you one on one. Sure Chair just wants to poll the commission. Is there anyone else that would like to participate in that discussion? If not, I the chair would would ask commissioner husbeth get with legal and have your questions addressed in that matter if we need to bring it forward Uh, then we will certainly put it on the matrix and do that . Thanks. Thank you, sir. Thank you Any other comments or items for our concluding items? Seeing none i'm going to close our meeting at 7 45. Thank you [ Silence ]