Apr 09, 2018 Historic Landmark Commission on 2018-04-09 5:30 PM

And we're going to start are we going to start with pledge yes, we're going to start with the pledge of allegiance Roy would you mind starting us off? Honors Texas flag I pledge allegiance to the Texas One State Indivisible One State Indivisible I'm sorry One State Indivisible You got it I fell apart I got distracted I had it right here the cheat sheet You forgot to move it No that's state pledge So chair I would ask if we might be able to take things out of order and move to the concluding items We have a couple of visitors here Yes please So in the concluding items what I wanted to do today is recognize that Peggy Riddle has moved her homestead back to Dallas I believe And she's no longer going to be the chair that's why we have the item on the agenda to replace the chair which is irreplaceable as she is And we also have Eric Polito visiting today who hasn't been on the commission since I think maybe November It was way back there And you know I'm sure you all have worked with them longer than I have But it's just been you know their leadership has been invaluable And we have an item on the agenda today about downtown district design guidelines I've looked back in the old minutes and Eric is from day one in the door six years of asking for something about some protection of downtown And I mean Peggy is just amazing to work with her leadership her demeanor everything has just been really incredible And so I have a couple of gifts for you all not really gifts but just a little lottery I made these plaques let me just give you a little history you know I can't do anything that I have plaques Now sorry these aren't Denton properties on your left right here is the what was called the Dew Drop Inn through the 50 s and 60s a little one room hotel But originally it was this homestead built about 1909 by Andrew Goldhammer and the building during Hurricane Beulah It took Beulah took a couple of big hurricanes that came through and you noticed that the roof lost its its gable and the pitch and it became a flat roof And boy that was a really bad decision by that Landmark Commission because by the time I got to Brownsville the entire middle of that house was completely rotted out I have a video I was going to share with you but I don't want to go too long but I had to the I had to really defend letting that demolition permit go through So I made a lot of videos of stepping through the floor literally falling through the floor of the middle of that house and the city had acquired it and it's it's now gone But I went through and got the window and door trim and so these plaques this side of this plaque is window and door trim Now I learned something this week that I didn't know and when you're talking about old growth lumber what I learned there was a window specialist who gave a long lecture on this would And you know he said that that if it's soft wood it's probably the trees that were felled at the time were possibly five to seven hundred years old when we were cutting down that old growth lumber And if it was a I'm sorry that's the hardwood and if it was a softwood they could have been a thousand years old if we were filling those those trees And another thing about this property it is Brownsville with lots of Catholicism is a big deal so the guy there in that picture is leaning kneeling and praying in front of a This was a Chinese tallow that was in front of the house that he thought they thought they saw the Virgin Mary in that tree and so for years people would come and kneel in front of that house and that was part of its history The other wood on this plaque here this was the first house that I had to that building that got taken down right after I graduated from architecture school came down to Browns ville on your left is the is a house that was still standing when I came I researched the house and determined it was actually from before 1860 and if you look on your right this is a post card of someone down around the turn of the century coming down to Brownsville and you see it says Mexican homes Rio Grande City Rio Grande Valley Texas and you see on the right behind the home a more contemporary structure with milled wood and a composition roof actually looks like there but these that ched roofs still existed and they existed quite late and so here's an 1894 sandborne map and on this map you notice that a diagonal it says Mexican dwellings and then that circle around 910 well 910 is that building on the left so I was really angry when actually the building official on his own just nothing to scoff at the building official without any permits or anything took that one down on the left because the mayor had gotten upset and wanted some cleaning up done around the neighborhood and so we lost that that structure but the wood I went over and they had already crunched most of it up but I have a few planks of the of the wood that's in that building that's what's on the left side and think that 's all I have on these plaques but I wanted to present these to y'all and if you have anything else to say if you want these are needs so I'm still working for Ditton County so I'm here as a resource I enjoy working with each and every one of you and Eric he and I were both on the same page with the downtown and I'm still gonna be there for the downtown once y'all get it all worked out here so thank you very much. Thank you. You can still say something. I just want to say, well thank you. First off I appreciate the recognition. You know, this HLC commission has been really a treat to me I joined. And the city started writing about my band and I thought man that's that's pretty cool you know I maybe I should get to know somebody down there at the city level and see what they're up to and not be this this this dichotomy or schism that exists of where the artists are in the city and, you know, never this to meet. I was married down at 1910 West Oak down the store. And there's so much that I've learned and the value that I really gained into our different districts and particularly the downtown district where I have businesses there and obviously, you know, really feel that there's an inherent value that's palpable. And that became such a desire to protect that because you know these places these buildings. They're going to be there after we're gone you know hopefully and what we inst ill for the next generation will be that of appreciation and love for these things that matter, because it's easy these days to forget that so if anything, I learned and want to continue and help instill that that, you know, even though it is an organic, you know, ever changing area that the heart of it has value and it's a historic one that tells a story and I think it's been cool to be able to protect that story and tell it . Thank you. I would just like to say on behalf of the whole board we have, it has been a pleasure to work with both of you and an honor to have learned from both of you. Thank you guys. Exactly. I'm going to do. I'm hoping to get. Thank you so much guys. Thank you guys really appreciate your work. So we're going to move on and consider. I have a two a. Which is to consider an HLC or historically marked Commission chair and vice chair positions with Peggy no longer being able to serve on the Commission chair is no longer filled so anybody have any. I'd like to nominate Alyssa Stevenson is our new chair person. Do you vote now. Okay, let's go ahead and any other nominations, do we need to do or do we have any nominations, other than myself. You can, I promise. Mayor James like I'm really professional over there. All right, let's go ahead and take a vote. All in favor. Aye. Any opposed. And then we also need to. The motion carries. If do we have any nominations for vice chair. I nominate Deb Conti as vice chairperson. Thank you. I would like to nominate Daniel boss alone for vice chair. Actually, I would like to withdraw my nomination because that really took me by surprise, but thank you very much. I actually this is my seventh year and I roll off in August. And I think we need to have someone else come on and Daniel , I would totally support that. Thank you very much. I'm so sorry. I know this totally took me totally by surprise. I wasn't even at the meeting last time. So thank you though very much. And Daniel, I think you'll make a great vice chair. Do you have any other nominations for vice chair? Do you accept formally? Okay. Any other. Do we have a second for Daniel? Second. And then let's go ahead and take a vote if we can. All in favor. Aye. unanimously. Any opposed. All right. Well, thank you guys. Daniel. Great. When I catch the flu from my 12 year olds. You will be much better at Robert's Rules of Order than I am. All right. Let's go ahead and move on to agenda item 2B. Receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the courth ouse square design standards. Long time coming. And it's going to be Scott McDonald. Thank you, Scott. Thank you. Yes, I'm Scott McDonald. I'm the director of development services for the city of Denton and I'm privileged to be here with you tonight. Absolutely love the fact that we're going to be able to talk a little bit about the square and where we're going with the square and what we're trying to achieve. All of you have within your packet some proposed design standards. So we're looking to create an environment in the square that we feel is consistent with the area. There were a number of things that we walked through as we came through this. And, you know, first and foremost is that we really have no design standards today. So anyone can ultimately, if it's not designated as a historic landmark, could go in and remove a building, build a building. And we really have very little say as to what that is. So that was really the generation or the creation of these proposed standards. And what we've done is we've went to a variety of groups to solicit feedback and input. And we started with the property owners. And we visited with the property owners in the square area. And I'm going to get a little bit into what that area consists of here shortly. But ultimately talking to those property owners, it was met with, you know, at least a welcome arms and an idea and a path and a direction to go. And so as we took that further, we met with a couple of the local groups, the downtown groups in particular. And the overwhelming consensus thus far, I guess I need that, is -- oh, it's not a clickable. >> No, I didn't put it there. You want that PowerPoint? >> Yeah, I want to get some of that. >> Let me see if I can get you this. >> So I can keep talking. >> Yeah. >> What we have is we have the central business district. So the central business district is a large area. And we recognize within the central business district that we have the square proper. And we're really trying to define what the area of the square should be. And it's very natural for us to look at the square and the facades that face the square. But many of those businesses or most of those businesses also have a rear facade. So what you've commonly heard is the Mew streets are the streets that are immediately behind the square. So we have a map that illustrates that the downtown standards would apply to the square and that street immediately behind that and those facades. And then as we transition out, there's probably less of an importance to follow that same scheme, but not to just neglect that entirely. So we're looking at how it is that we may have some design standards that may be more of an industrial feel as we head to the east. To the north and the south might be more residential or a different setting as well as to that of the west. So -- >> Scott, I don't think I've got that. >> Oh, not in there? >> You should have it in your packet though. So you'll see it highlighted in colors. And so what staff has done is created a map to highlight the overall area that we had the several boundaries and really kind of landing on that central blue boundary as being what we would call the square or the downtown design standards of the square. The yellow was maybe that furthest point that may be affected, but as we visit with business owners in the local groups downtown, it seemed to be the consensus that we would just focus on the square being that most immediate action that we can take. And this meeting is just one more extension of that is to get feedback and get input recognizing that, of course, being a historic preservation board, this doesn't necessarily address historic preservation in the sense of having a historic district. But it is that groundwork. It is that first step in a place to identify an area. Come up with some timeless standards that ultimately that I think that we all can live with. >> So the maps, I'm sorry, Scott, we didn't bring the map with you, but everyone here knows the National Register District, which is the courthouse square and the buildings that face the square. And then I guess the backside of those buildings facing those other streets. >> We have an assured that. >> There you go. >> Yeah. >> Okay, and I'll keep talking. I'm sorry. >> I do. So you said that you were looking at putting guidelines in place without making it a specific district? >> No, we're going to identify a district. But we recognize that we have multiple districts within the central business district. So overlays, if you will. And we thought that the best course of action is if we could start somewhere and start at the epicenter. So we start at the hub of really where the square is and kind of work our way out. That's the catalyst for this. It is very obvious to many, whether you're from Denton or visiting Denton, that the square exists. And we thought that that was the easiest and really required immediate attention. So we know we have a building to be rebuilt. That building in whatever fashion or style today can be built. So now if we can come up with what those design standards might look like, we could shape it more so that it's timeless, it fits the character, the feel, and the fabric of what the square means. And so really that's the goals. Perfect. Okay. So if we look at the map, what we've heard for an overwhelming consensus is that the blue area be actually the square. And it would include the square and the streets behind the square that these design standards would apply to. And then as we transition out, it wouldn't necessarily apply to the streets following that. Okay. And as I said, some of the groups had some of the dialogue as far as this having more of an industrial feel, but we still need to have a balance as to how the two areas would tie together. And really looking at the central business district comprehensively, and maybe it's four or five different overlay districts within the central business district, but we can work through each of those areas independently and make sure that we have some sense of character in how it is that they tie together. Sure. As you look through the standards, is it safe to assume, has everybody had an opportunity to review these in advance of the meeting? So I don't want to try to bore you with details other than the fact that what this provides is a flexible means for building owners to make sure that they're responsible with construction, reconstruction, how it is that we look at signage, how we look at facades, streetscapes, and all of those amenities that make the square what it is. Within that, I think that we've had some great suggestions as we've worked through it, and overall feeling and recommendation to proceed with this and to proceed rather diligently. So we get it before P&Z and city council so that we can get this standard adopted. Not necessarily looking for action here this evening. Certainly was here to at least give you an overview, look for any questions that you might have, and ultimately try to garner a sense of support or where it is that we could stand to provide some further clarity or action. Just direction. Can we ask questions? Absolutely. Okay, so we adopt these. This is step one. Step two is actually a district designation. Is that correct? It would be a portion of this. So staff created the guidelines as really that starting point of what this would look like. We're soliciting public input as to where that district might fall. And so what we're hearing from the public is this blue area . And so what we would do is draft then what our proposal would be or the staff recommendations to take it before the bodies that it needs to go before, which would be the planning and zoning commission and city council for them then to designate that area and adopt the standards if they're so inclined. Okay, so if it's adopted by planning and zoning and city council, and I want to make Recycle Books orange, can I do that? I don't really. I don't own it. But I'm curious. Are these guidelines or are these binding rules for the owners? They're guidelines. So it is not designed to be overly prescriptive. And we didn't get into, you know, ultimately paint color specifically to say this is the palette of paint you can pick from. Right. So trying to balance property owners' rights with, you know , the community's desire for its character. So Roy, I really appreciate your question because it ties right into exactly what I wanted to know. Are we looking at standards that we're putting into the code or which become things that people have to follow or are we putting forth guidelines that can be ignored? Now, ultimately, another piece of this, and forgive me, I failed to mention this, is the certificate of appropriaten ess. Right. Ultimately, before somebody is able to do work on their building, they're going to come to the city for a certificate of appropriateness. That'll be approved or denied based upon the work that's being provided. Another recommendation that seems to be popular is that there is a board, whether it be this particular commission or if it's another body of the downtown business owners that would be serving in a capacity of an appeal process to that. So if staff determines that it doesn't meet the character or the design doesn't meet the guidelines, that the owner then could, or the applicant could then go to the board, ask for the board's evaluation of what it is they're proposing to do. So using the example of painting the building orange, if in fact that were in the guidelines and staff were to say that that doesn't warrant a certificate of appropriateness, they then have a body that they can go to then to appeal that decision. Okay. In order to have a certificate of appropriateness, it would have to be in the code, yes? Yes. So, and what I'm hearing is we're trying to accomplish putting on an overlay, historic overlay, with doing everything except walking around those wards and I'm not exactly sure what that's about and why, for example, COAs that would have to do with outside standards that would typically be reviewed by this commission would be thought of to go to some other place. I understand there might be other issues that downtown building owners would have that would have nothing to do, excuse me, with the purview of this commission, but certainly any kind of design guidelines. I mean, I love the way some of the things that I saw, including the contiguity and the need for uniform setbacks, things like that. Those are all things that are very much a purview of this commission. So I'm wondering, as we're thinking of this, why are we not using the words and why are we not thinking of, in that review process, that this commission would be the, to me, the natural one to go to? So I might be a little bit out of the loop here and everybody else may be more in the loop than myself, but that's my question. Well, and it hasn't been determined. So it's been both of those and that's why I mentioned the fact that whether it's this or another body of whether it's the stakeholders that are affected by that area, no different than if we were to say that we had an east side, whatever it is, would it be, again, the Historic Pres ervation Board? Would it be the same for the entire central business district? If we had four or five overlays or would it be someone that would be dealing with the design standards overall and not to suggest that it wouldn't be? And more so to your point that, again, from a historic designation standpoint, absolutely would be and really kind of the significance of where we're going. So absolutely not opposed and wasn't suggesting that it wasn't. It was just, that's the two comments that we have heard thus far. I will take that as again, looking for direction. I hear your point in this being that it should be absolutely here. Very much, especially since I think one of the things that this city has been very strong in doing is dealing and certainly Roman can speak to that having walked into this as our historic preservation officer. We've got very diverse historic neighborhoods. This is a very bottom up city in which every individual neighborhood or different overlay district is able to have autonomy and create their own, the things that they themselves feel are important, all underneath a more rubric umbrella that this commission looks over. That's why I really see that and we've been wanting so much to work towards getting that overlay district on the downtown neighborhood center. I would think as we move forward, I would strongly urge anyone who's in decision making power to really move forth with that model that we already have that works so well in this city that we can both keep the integrity of the stakeholders in that district while making the big decisions for design guidelines, reviews, certificates of appropri ateness, that kind of stuff would fall perfectly under this commission's purview just like it does for any other historic neighborhood or historic overlay. I would be very much encouraging any from the top down to look at how well that's worked from our city because it's a very bottom up way of looking at it and it's been great for us. Absolutely. I support that. Just one caveat I throw in there and it's not a debate at all, is as you reference, historic significance and keeping in mind that these aren't necessarily historic guidelines because we've also been working with that. So just this commission would ultimately be looking at a set of guidelines, not necessarily in the realm of historic . That would be my only caveat to add. Sure, I share that. Thank you. Thank you. Daniel? Yeah, I would just echo that sentiment that to the extent there exists an HLC preservation districts and normal people with normal homes have to come to this body and ask for a COA, they don't like it appeal it to PNZ and then the council. I would, I would hope that the business owners on the square the landowners on the square would have a similar process. I think anything shorter that would ultimately be controversial. If there was an unpopular decision reached by a different sort of separate appellate process, that decision would meet with a lot of controversy around town if people felt like they were somehow had a special side track around the normal procedures that every other home owner has to follow and updating historic property. I know voting for the years for time. Okay. Your presentation left me with the feeling that this board was just deluded. It was one of many boards are many things that take a look and set the guidelines or say this or that . That's what I think. The way you described it, it works. The way you were describing it, it was very deluded. And so, and again, I'm all I'm trying to do is echo what feedback I 've heard, not not making recommendation. So we drafted we drafted guidelines to get to get public feedback and we're going through the process of public feedback. And I'm echo ing what it is that I heard as we go through this process. Okay. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think substantively guidelines are great. I mean, just because I agree and sort of a huge lack of any kind of guidelines right now. These look fantastic. Yeah, just give me some guidelines. I think there are a few things that need to be maybe addressed in the guidelines. But not a lot, which is what's really nice. I, for example, if you're looking at the roof standards. It's very clear that things should be harmonious with existing buildings and overall building design. My question is some, we have a lot of wording in here that is basically in the character of surrounding buildings harmonious with, and I wonder, a is that too loose, because now I have to define what is harm harmonious. But my only other thing is making sure that we're being effective all the way through. If I'm looking at windows and it says windows are demonstration and glazing standards overly tinted reflective or opaque glass is not allowed on the ground floor of buildings, but it says nothing of the second and third floor. And when I imagine what I have what I see on the square right now and I see it quite often. I would, it, it's hard to think of the fact that someone would have clear glass on the first floor, but overly tint ed glass on the second third and fourth. I want to make sure that we're not being too loose in our guidelines, so that we can't help truly guide developers or business owners or building owners as they continue to design for the appropriateness of the downtown and keeping its historic character. Not that every facade will look historic, because this is not Disney World, but in keeping the character and the heart of of what is down there, which is completely unique to this area. And most main streets wish that they had the stock that we have downtown. And we need to make sure that we are preserving it and being careful in our guidelines that we can. Absolutely welcome it. Welcome any comments that you have as far as any specifics that you'd like to see addressed. I can say that the roofing, the roofing question was addressed by another person, and they indicated that you shouldn't see the roof. So they would like the design standards to be specific to say you do not see the roof of then you would see as a corn ice or the the fascia boards. So someone couldn't put a g abled roof or a shingle roof you see wouldn't be able to see that. So the only building on the square that you can currently see any portion of the roof is actually where JT Clothier's is right now. And it's, it's a facade. It's part of the facade where you see the roof line. And in this building you can see the Jackson Hagen sign. But that's, that's part of the, yeah, that's still the wall up there. It's the access to the roof. It's not the roof itself everywhere else up there has a flat roof. Unless I'm in the only other one that I can think of is, is it the Schmidt building. Schmidt building. Yeah. That one you can see the roof it's a metal roof, but it's one of the only ones and and that roof in no way looks obtr usive, but it is not a flat roof. And so I don't, I do like that. I think that yes, roofs probably should be flat and maybe that is something that we should look at but I do continue to like what I see here, where I'm seeing places where it says, find one, where it basically says, you know, everything is also under consideration individually if it seems appropriate. And, and I think that that's what we want and why we hired as a city, such an excellent HBO with such great skill as Roman has because I remember when we started looking at this and we went and talked to Guy and McKinney, and we went down to Dallas and I talked to some people in Fort Worth. And everybody said, you know, it's about being flexible it 's about having strong guidelines, but also being able to say what's best for the building owner what's best for the business owner and what still makes sense for the developer overall, because you can't have guidelines that are so strong that they can't afford to build, but you can't have guidelines that are so weak that they put in something that looks completely out of character and takes away from the feeling. And I, I'm hoping that that's what we can gain here is a balance where we can address and tweak some of the small things, but that we can make sure that we are giving it the balance that it needs so that people aren't scared away from creating infill downtown, because we're about to have a lot of infill created. And absolutely our goal with doing this and, you know, we looked at other cities we looked at best practices. We didn 't feel there was a need to recreate the wheel. We're really trying to solicit feedback as quickly as we can get as many groups as we can, so we can create something that we have formal that we can bring back and say, here's our recommendation this is what we're proposing to do, and to come to this body P and Z council and say, here's what we're wanting to do here's how we elect to do it and here are the, you know, the powers authorities and the rules that go along with it up until that point it was just truly floating a balloon out there, knowing that historic designation standards or specific code has been met with resistance. Right. We know that we have something that's eminent that needs to happen so how do we best do that. And this was just the simple way to do it and say, how can we get around find out what the flavor is through all of our electives. Okay, so I just want to be, I want to make sure I'm clear. So, if these guidelines. If they get passed on, and you get approved or whatever iteration of them. What then, is it part of code, is it, is this something that becomes part of the code itself. It, and I'll let Victor chime in on this but as far as, as far as I'm concerned it will be part of the code of ordinances. That it'll be a reference to a design standard if you will to say this is the document that we're using, how that's done by ordinance, I think is separate and I don't, I don't mean to put you in a spot. The conversation is there's a certificate of appropriaten ess or certain design standards and those design standards are codified in the code. It's my understanding that's that 's correct. Correct. So this will be codified in the code. Yes. That's what I want to know. Or by reference. That's a, that's a recommendation from this, from this, from this commission. Yes. So there's just a couple of points I want to make the piggy back on that and also maybe perhaps a suggestion, because again I think since it is going to be codified in some form that this body is an integral part of that and if you'll look at the history and we just talked about it with Eric. Every step of the way of as we've moved forward talking about it a downtown overlay. It has been from whether it has come from just the board or working in tandem with city council, working every step of the way we've had a representative from the commission working at the onset creation of moving forward with this. So for example just a couple other small points, like I said, like Daniel said these are great, a great start. There's a couple of individual things that we could blitz you with that, you know, could make your head spin but that 's why I think it would be important to have a representative. So for example, just on the window thing alone, everything that was said including making sure we've got plenty of them sounds wonderful. Now the only thing that I see is missing would be something for example about when we have windows that have original window glazing in them that we do, and take as many steps as possible to preserve those. Or for example and we just had this occur with the tragedy of the fire on the square. When something takes down an entire facade of a building. Do we have codified in their language like for every other overlay district that we need a COA for demolition that would have put in the process for what just occurred on the square that might have changed things I don't know we might have wound up in the same place it might have had a different response but this is such a unique commission and has so much to offer that I think anytime there's ever been a problem with the city in this area, it's because the commission has come in after decisions have been made, and then the commission tries to come in and make it fit and work. Cleanup. Every time we have been the strongest is when we 've had a particular representative from the commission, working forward in tandem to make sure that just that little unique perspective from from the preservation perspective can be incorporated from the beginning and then it is a seamless process moving forward one does not have to take away from the other, and I would think that the person, you know, I would think we've got Alyssa here we've got Daniel here either one of them or anybody else on the board would be perfectly capable of doing that and just giving just a little guidance, just from the ground floor on these issues, and just would just make everything we're talking about just a little bit stronger. That makes sense. Well, you can answer. Well, and I guess I just would have happy to hear, and again, not that you're speaking for the rest of the board but the reality of creating another board creates a whole series of issues so much rather house it something that exists today. So, absolutely no problem with that I wasn't going to presume or assign that I'm just, again soliciting input and feedback and the certificate of appropriateness was was again, even one of those options whether or not we would even do that or have a set of standards and, and again, how far we want to take this down the line. Absolutely support that the work that the HLC does. This is really designed on that and again from just from the mere fact of that where do we start where to be, we begin. This is a very simple start. And then as we can look at then the historic preservation aspects, and then look at whether there's another code design that's required or where we go and how we transition this across the central business district. Couple of questions in the blue zone, and just a guess how many buildings in the blue zone or less than 100 years old. Are less than 100 years old. In the blue in the blue zone. Well, the Sherman building is less than 100 years old. LSA is less than 100 built years old. The bank buildings over 100. Everything else on that side. Whatever goes into the new infill for for many mobile be less than 100. The things that got hit by fire, really, are less than 100 years old, but virtually everything in there that wasn't burned up is, is still original. The vast majority is under. Yeah, most of our, our side is older than 1918 mine was 1890. I think ours was second question is, in your mind, does this preclude the historic district designation down the road. No, sir, it is not intended actually probably more so to compliment. I mean, ultimately, by virtue of if we can create something that is that we can define as it is an area. Then we have standards to at least try to manage timeless, it'd be much simpler to create that historic district to say that's really what this is. But the time required to do that would be pretty immense. And it's a whole different conversation. Yes, historic district. We're really sort of riding herd over rules they choose for themselves, even if the blue area were eight historic districts, they could eat east side rules. So in other words, there's flexibility there with historic districts to do that if I understand it right. Absolutely. But, but your point is so perfectly made and so timely and politically very wise. It's been very difficult to get this accomplished in a very direct way, starting with calling it a historic overlay if we could get the guidelines in place, get it codified in the DDC or DCC or whichever. Thank you. And like I said, keep a representative in on the ground floor of how that language actually goes in, then we have actually accomplished what we've been trying to accomplish all along we can call it whatever we want after the fact but I really like your thinking as far as that goes. And I think it's very smart. And might actually get us to accomplish this. I was hearing the comment about the fire that was on the square and the demolition. It was done. However, and without a COA right it didn't need to see without a COA right again when you do this. That there is these are the standards, because there's good . There but actually this these guidelines, there's going to be more problems on the square. You know whatever you don't which is right, it's going to go my goodness, a building on the squares burning. And it's going to be all what are we going to do all they just tore down and ran away and did nothing. So, correct the problem. Yes, now. Yes, let's do it again later. No, I do want to actually piggyback on what you're saying is I actually don't see anything in the guidelines regarding demolition or demolition by neglect. Right. And that really is everywhere else. And I would like to ask, is that doing intent on adding that into the guidelines. Well, it's been part of the feedback. So a certificate of appropriateness is going to be for really anything that would require a building permit. Okay, so anything other than ordinary repairs. So an ordinary repair is if I had wooden steps, I'm not replacing the steps. I'm replacing a piece of wood, right. Replacing a trim board around a window. But if I choose to change the storefront, I need a building permit in order to get a building permit. I need to get a certificate of appropriateness. No different than with demolition. So demolition would follow a similar path. If I'm going to demolish, I can opt, you're saying disaster , as a building owner today, I can choose to tear down a building. So what is going to prevent me from doing that? Nothing. But ultimately with the design standards, that's part of this process. Now, I can't tell you to the depth of what that might mean. That would require a little more vetting. But ultimately, the rules are what we create the rules to be. So however the process works, whatever council in turn decides to do, that's what the rules are. So short answer, yes, demolition would be part of the certificate of appropriateness on the basis that a building permit is required. And that's how we would tie the certificate of appropriaten ess. What about also demolition by the black considering the fine arts theater and just the renovation there? I don't think many buildings other than that one are at risk on the square. But that one sure would have been well served by a demol ition by neglect statute 10 years ago. Yeah, ultimately, yeah, I don't have a good answer for that specifically. But again, I know that's my whole purpose in being here. I wasn't like here wasn't here as an action item because I 'd rather bring you something more concrete and ultimately go down that path. My charge in this is that if I'm going to do it, I need to do this very aggressively. We need to do this quickly. And the only way I can do that is to get before as many audiences as I can at least get an understanding of where it's at. This is probably the easiest audience to have this conversation with just because you understand the importance and the significance. So for also, I mean, we do need to consider demolition by neglect and what happens whenever people do decide to demol ish building. And I think if it is downtown, if it is historic, it needs to come before HLC. Absolutely. But I also wonder about just neglect if people if the standards are falling behind because someone is neglecting their building and is remaining vacant. Can we is there something that can be included in the guidelines to address neglect in a historic building? Yes. Short answer. Ultimately, you can do that. You can do that with it with a nonhistoric building. That's at the that's at the will of the council. So if council likes to have a vacant building ordinance and requirements that go along with that, certainly. I only err on the side of that. As we look at this in baby steps and say that what we're attempting to do is to start with something. Yes. And to manage it again, to manage it and then figure out, you know, the reality is, is that we'll we'll create this program. And do we have to review this in six months or a year? I absolutely would think so. I don't think we're going to get it 100 percent out of the box. Right. But having something rather than having nothing and then capitalize upon the successes and figure out what our failures may be. And then we we we, you know, make the corrections as we need to. And Scott, I think you're going to find that everybody on this board and I shouldn't speak for all of us, but we agree with that sentiment. We have been wanting something for a long time. I personally live downtown and have watched a lot of changes over the last several years and have sat on this board for the majority of that. And we've been pushing for this, not because we're trying to take over Denton, but because we want to protect the character. And I agree. Having something is much better than nothing. And if we can set up something and bring it under a process of review for six months out, a year out, a year and a half until we get it just right and make those small adjustments as we see fit from there. Find out, you know, what what holes we've left because we 're bound to leave some. All right. We support that. We want that. I know I would know as far as these guidelines and what it looks like procedurally, the way I imagine it might work is you codify these guidelines by reference to some sort of external thing that you can update regularly. I know I would be happy to apply more stringent guidelines in a broader context in my role as a commissioner here to serve the square. I think a lot of us would be. And, you know, it would just be we're looking at the overall ordinance. I don't know what the state of that is, but sort of maybe maybe that part of the ordinance could use some tweaking to say this is how the HLC applies guidelines that are cod ified or referenced. To propose projects and, you know, maybe we can all have some sort of additional training additional workload to get familiar with maybe beyond just historic guidelines so we can confidently apply these guidelines well the extent that they go beyond just historic preservation. Absolutely appreciate that. I'd be happy to do the extra work. Where we approach the owners and say, we're going to target specific and it voted by PNC or City Council, where the city actually suspends them from the tax rolls. During this three year period when they agree to work with HLC or PNC. That's what gets them in the front door when you want to be a part of this program because you pay no property taxes to the city or county or board. Do you consider the sort of a more progressive approach to getting people interested in participating in something like that. I can't I can't speak to that specifically I can tell you that you have a management team that's very progressive that they're looking at any number of things that would benefit the citizens of Denton to include the square, and some of those conversations are solid waste. So how we deal with the dumpsters on the square and looking at a more common approach. The idea of providing incentives for fire suppression systems throughout the entire square. So, I can't answer that question I don't know that I would dare to other than the fact to say that there are some programs that are available out there today that could help . Okay, we need to be really diligent to do this and make sure that everything is followed. So I really think the fire reading that ordinance I think that should have come before us. And I've talked to several other people and they agreed. And it just went away. And you can build new, but it's not the same as old. I mean the Sherman building looks okay but it's not. It's not the same. And we looked very carefully at that I assure you that it had it been a requirement to come before this body we would have made certain that it did. So I, it was very challenging and Roman Roman and I struggled through that very process. And reading it and having other people read it. They said, yeah, come to you all. And I just think that if we're going to do this we need to do it right. I think, and speaking to that, what are we looking at as far as repercussions to violations of these guidelines. What gives them the teeth that they need in order to be carried through and not violated. Like any other provision of our municipal code. If it's, if it is a violation of our municipal code it's punishable of municipal court of $500 per occurrence per violation unless it's life safety. Classy. And the other relief in any kind of violation of our code is injunctive relief so stopping somebody from doing something that's the city could file an action in district court to stop somebody from doing something if it was appropriate. But, correctly, I may have misheard, but I thought this was not going to be part of the code. Well, I think that was some of the discussion going on whether it would be part of the code or not part of the code. Okay, I'll ask again. Is it going to be part of the code? What I think the discussion here is getting insight and if that's the recommendation to make it part of the code that you would make it part of the code or not if you just want the alternatives that Scott was recommending. And that would be different. And if it is not part of the code, does it have any teeth? I'm sure that with the with planning and legal we put as much teeth as we could to it. We certainly don't want to create a set of standards that are useless. Without coming with a preconceived notion of what it is or what I've heard many times from different groups is that here's the city again ram rotting something down our throat . They're just giving us what it is. I'm truly soliciting feedback and I'm hearing and it's not really any different than I've heard from the other groups is you want something that's substantive, flexible for property owners, something that's going to provide for protection of the character and truly to be enforceable in order to do that, then it has to be part of the code. Yes. So in the context that it is much simpler to walk through the process. And again, the failure to obtain a certificate of appropri ateness is an action that that it violates the code. So that would have to be an ordinance that would say a certificate of appropriateness is required and no different than following some of our drainage manuals or our roadway construction manuals, water, wastewater, very much in the same fashion. So I agree. So it's like you said this is not an actionable item. So I think you've heard everything that we have to say. I think I've heard I've heard some support and I'd like to think that I'll be back before this body very soon. That's what I was going to ask is when can we expect an update and when can we expect to move forward as as quickly as I can possibly move there. And timeline on that. No, not necessarily. And I say that I will say that I don't intend on this being a six month process. I know you've been dealing with it for years. I suspect that this would be completed this spring. So summer ends in June or begins in June. So I would I would really like to be through this process by then. I don 't know that. Okay. But that can be my I can dare to dream. So we're shooting for June, hopefully by August. No, really, I plan on being through the process by June, meaning that I would be before council excellent in a short period of time. So, again, I just need to solicit the feedback from the public to garner what I can put together what it is that I believe to be the recommendations to take forward to those bodies. And I think, you know, through this, I've heard that I just really need a work session with with P and Z and council and get their direction and craft and take it right back through. I'm sorry I had been out for just a minute, but I'm hearing that that's a very quick timeline. Would it be appropriate for us then to ask, would there be someone who could perhaps write a little summary as we're looking through this, perhaps some additions that could be made just from an HLC perspective that we could then submit to you as you 're moving through to finalize what you're writing. Absolutely. I'm happy to take any comments Roman Roman has been working very hard with Sean on this. Ron is very familiar with it. So really any of our planning staff, you can you can provide the email paper. I'm so sorry. Call us. Excuse me. This never happens. And I don't know how to make it shut up . I can't make it shut up. I'm sorry. Please help me with this. So, I can tell you that after. I think every meeting that I've had I've met with individuals that have a vested interest in it. Happy to meet with anyone individually, or again any of any of our staff that are that are engaged in the process. If there is anything specific that we see in here, small details that might need updating before this moves onward, we should pass it to Roman, pass it to Roman. Sure. Email it over to Roman in the next week week guys can we, I mean, yeah. Cool. All right. I know that's fast. I know you're in the middle of tax season. But we've waited six years we've got to get this thing. Well, and keep in mind no matter what you what you do in the next week doesn't mean that it's over so it's going to, it's ultimately going to have to go before public hearings. And, and for me I think this should be a living breathing document anyhow not to say that we're creating the ultimate end all. So, we create something and then we look at it review it and make sure that what we have is relevant and is working as we designed it to. Absolutely. It's just a step. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you so much, Scott . We appreciate it. All right. Let's move on to item to see consider approval of the Historic Landmark Commission meeting minutes. Move we approve the minutes is offered. Second. Great. So moved. Do we need to take a vote on that. We do. Let's take a vote on the millions. All in favor. Aye. Aye. Passes unanimously. All right. Let's move on to item 2D. The Historic Landmark Commission project matrix. Chair, this is just an opportunity to go over the matrix but also hear from the commission if there are any other items that you would like to see in a future agenda item or would like to see staff bring back either in a memo. However, we can address it that way as well. Great. Do we have anything for consideration to add to the matrix, Daniel? Yeah. Sort of on a, I think a more successful note. Does anybody know anything about that warehouse that's being redeveloped on like the far east part of Oak Street right up against the railroad tracks? If those people would like to come and tell us about their awesome project that I love to death. You mean the one right next to Twice is Nice? Yeah. The event planners. They have created an events hall and they've done a beautiful job with the build out of that. Yeah, they should come and brag about it if they want. Yes. If anybody can extend an invite. We can reach out to them. I've got, I think I might have their contact information. If you don't, I can get it. Mike's daughter is getting married there in September. Perfect. Go for it. Awesome. But I believe Tim Beatty is the one doing that, right? I'm not sure. But it's going to be gorgeous. I do the tax return. We're all connected. He's a good friend. Roman, when is the next HLC meeting? Is it not in May? Should be May. I just want to date so you can, when you reach May 14th. So when we reach out, we'll make sure. Thank you so much, Danny. Yeah, when they started that, I arrived here right when they were going to be getting started and tried to talk them into doing the tax credit program. But they already had it kind of all mapped out. Well, and it's great because that got handed over into those hands right as you got here. But before that, for about two years, there were these guys who wanted to turn it into lofts and they just got lost in the construction of it. They couldn't, they could only play a short game, not the long game. Which happens to a lot of people in historic preservation. On the matrix here, we do have the RFP item under ongoing items educate citizens regarding incentives. We have the RFP out. I think it has another week before the submissions have to be due. So that's going to allow us to have community meetings that involves a lot of community meetings. That's going to be an opportunity to educate citizens and hopefully for citizens to educate us about what kind of incentives they want to see. So it gets to Roy's question there. And that can become part of the new city of Denton historic preservation plan to replace the 1986 one. So that but I'm hoping that document is a concise document that deals strictly with with with preservation planning in Denton. It doesn't get into the surveying and those things. There was one other item. Did the the matrix doesn't have the Denton the historic preservation code updates that Daniel mentioned. Those those ordinance revisions are going to be incorporated into the Denton development code when that goes forward, which I'm not sure how far away, but they will be integrated as a part of that. And so there'll be an opportunity for more community input as that final document goes through. But the edits have been pretty much. And so the Bell Avenue historic. Yes, that was hung up for that, too. So we don't know when that's going to be finalized. All that has a city council, right? It's gone through us. Yes, our that portion of that will be integrated. Do we know how many months more of that? We suspect that the development code will probably be sometime in August to have its final adoption through council. So we're in the process next week will be rolling out the last sub chapters of the proposed development code and the zoning map. So we'll be walking through the entirety of what this document is going to look like. We'll take the public feedback will consolidate into a single document and then we'll have it out for the public for a month. And then it'll go before the variety of bodies. So PNZ and council for readings. And then, like I say, probably sometime in August, it should be if it's councils will approved and become then the development code. I believe the historic resolution. Yes. One one of the sub chapters within the development code is historic preservation. Yes. All so in its entirety. Thank you so much. Is there anything else on here that we need to discuss? Is there anything that needs to be added? Okay. And that should conclude our meeting movie adjourned. Second, we conclude the meeting at six forty five. Digity dog. Great picture in the paper Roman.