WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.089 >> Are missing two of the members, we're missing one of the 00:00:03.089 --> 00:00:04.320 council members. 00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:08.480 So on the agenda we have considered an appointment for 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:10.080 chair and vice chair. 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:15.039 And I'm recommending that perhaps we table that and John, 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:17.629 if you're willing to serve as chair today just to run the 00:00:17.629 --> 00:00:18.280 meeting. 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:23.120 We could just do that as just a point of order. 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.160 And ultimately we'll wait on the meeting minutes as well 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:27.359 and 00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:30.809 then we can talk a little further about our time discussion 00:00:30.809 --> 00:00:31.079 . 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:34.200 I'm gonna try to do that via do the poll and 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:38.439 hopefully that will kind of narrow down the focus of where 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:39.920 everybody's at on both. 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:42.200 If you've had an opportunity to see the do the poll yet or 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:45.320 if you've seen the poll before, pardon me? 00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:46.679 >> I've already did it last night. 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:51.000 >> Okay, so you must have been the other response. 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:53.560 >> Well, you should be able to see it. 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:55.840 You should be able to see everybody's availability and 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:58.039 then I'll narrow that down to time windows. 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:00.600 So we'll try to get the best days. 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:03.600 So whatever day or days that we end up with and 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:07.540 then narrow it down to the time windows to see what those 00:01:07.540 --> 00:01:09.000 might look like. 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:11.519 At least then we don't have to try to compare calendar 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:11.920 sitting here and 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:13.680 working through that. 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:17.239 So that may take another week to do just based on what 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:18.040 responses we get. 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:21.379 I'll set up a meeting for next week if you're good with 00:01:21.379 --> 00:01:21.719 that. 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:26.079 So we can just kind of keep proceeding through this. 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:31.310 The other piece to that would be the minutes is that we'll 00:01:31.310 --> 00:01:33.959 just kind of preserve. 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:36.560 Well, I guess we can work through the minutes or 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:38.079 we can leave the minutes for the next week. 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:41.680 So kind of the complete committee or hopefully the complete 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:42.120 committee can kind 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:45.299 of get this into a regular process and not be as bumpy as 00:01:45.299 --> 00:01:46.519 what we've been. 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:50.280 So I apologize for that for any number of reasons of why we 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:51.480 're here today and 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.959 the condition that we are going forward. 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:59.200 Most importantly, I think that Clarion being in town is the 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:00.200 ability for 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.239 you as committee members to truly be able to get into 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:05.079 whatever it is that you'd 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:06.680 like to get into as far as specifics. 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:12.610 They have a presentation that they put on for council last 00:02:12.610 --> 00:02:13.080 night. 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:15.560 They're gonna put it on for PNZ today. 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:20.960 I asked them to skip the presentation as far as the in 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:22.240 depth because you will see 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:25.400 it this evening rather than just to hit the high points of 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:26.919 what those 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:30.639 significant changes are and then that way you can kind of 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:31.400 be able to just get 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:33.039 into the material a little bit more. 00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:34.800 I think they're gonna give a little context so 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:37.400 at least it makes sense as to where it is and we talked 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:39.360 about this yesterday at Lane. 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:41.280 So I think that they have a good handle on that. 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:44.960 Any direction or questions for me? 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:46.599 Anything that you'd like for me to do? 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:53.439 With that being said, I'll just bring you to the meeting 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:54.280 and 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:56.909 ultimately Clarion has got the presentation prepared for 00:02:56.909 --> 00:02:57.280 you. 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:01.229 >> Okay, since we've tabled items A and B, we'll move on to 00:03:01.229 --> 00:03:01.639 C. 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:05.439 Hold the discussion, provide staff with direction regarding 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:07.479 meeting frequency. 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:12.479 I think we've kind of already discussed that on that poll. 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:17.960 So unless there's additional comment on that, we'll move on 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:19.000 to item D, 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:21.800 which is hold the discussion regarding the purpose and 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:23.479 reporting guidelines for the committee. 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.439 >> Okay, with that being said, what the intent of first, I 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:31.520 think what might work 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:34.719 best is we'll work through this, we'll capture minutes, 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:35.319 what it is that the 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:38.960 committee is recommending, suggesting thoughts, ideas, and 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:40.719 staff will report 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:46.099 to, respectively to council as well as to PNZ in a weekly 00:03:46.099 --> 00:03:47.199 update. 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:50.280 So we'll provide those updates, give that comment and 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:55.759 feedback of our progress where we've made it to. 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:59.759 So for example, today if we were working on sub-chapter one 00:03:59.759 --> 00:03:59.960 , 00:03:59.960 --> 00:04:02.759 we talked about sub-chapter one. 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:05.039 These were the recommendations of the committee or 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:07.240 suggestions of the committee meeting. 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:08.400 It's good as written. 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:12.560 There's some suggestions to re-review or look at these 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:13.479 components. 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.240 We're also soliciting public input and feedback, so 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:17.879 we may not be complete with what it is. 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:21.800 But at least rather than having to rehash the entire sub-ch 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:23.360 apter one with council and 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:27.160 or commission that we're able to give a higher level update 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:27.639 and 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:29.439 really what the committee's thoughts and ideas and 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:31.040 direction is for 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:32.720 staff to be able to continue that work. 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:36.579 I'm not sure if there's any other thoughts or ideas with 00:04:36.579 --> 00:04:37.199 that. 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:41.970 >> Yeah, I guess my question is as far as updating as we go 00:04:41.970 --> 00:04:42.279 , 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:46.680 what is the timeframe on that? 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:49.259 Because we've talked about keeping, pretty much keeping the 00:04:49.259 --> 00:04:51.279 new code as an electronic document. 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:54.990 Is that just gonna look like notes on there or is it gonna 00:04:54.990 --> 00:04:57.000 be the actual rewrite? 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:03.079 I'd use as an example the R4 that's come in isn't in 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:05.040 sections of it. 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:09.040 So if we wanted to make some changes on something so we can 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.319 see what that change is and 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:14.079 then kind of revisit to make sure that that change was 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:14.680 proper. 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:17.000 >> And I'm gonna let Clarion answer that. 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:19.360 I just have one caveat that I'm gonna add in addition to 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:19.800 that. 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:25.120 So we're gonna attempt to work off of a one drive document 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:26.560 like we have to the past where 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.480 it is staff provided feedback to you. 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:32.560 So if we have changes that we're suggesting that we can all 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:34.160 work off of a single document, 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:38.339 I'm verifying with IT that we're gonna be capable of doing 00:05:38.339 --> 00:05:40.759 that with those that do not have 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:43.860 a city email address or if we can set up a city email 00:05:43.860 --> 00:05:45.319 address to do that. 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:48.259 So that we have a single document rather than do a drop box 00:05:48.259 --> 00:05:48.519 . 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:51.439 And then we can go back to how you traditionally do when 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:53.240 kind of the time frame we need to 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:54.199 compile. 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:57.449 >> So with each of the three parts that have been drafted 00:05:57.449 --> 00:05:59.319 for the district's uses piece 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:02.430 and the procedures and now finding this module three, the 00:06:02.430 --> 00:06:04.160 development students piece, 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:07.819 we've been getting feedback continuously both from the 00:06:07.819 --> 00:06:09.519 public and from staff. 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:12.399 We don't make changes to those drafts until the 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.000 consolidated draft which is coming next. 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:18.009 When we knit all three pieces together into a single 00:06:18.009 --> 00:06:19.360 document, that's when you're gonna 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:21.120 see most of the changes. 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:25.269 And we will note in there specifically, here's how it's 00:06:25.269 --> 00:06:27.399 different from your current code 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:29.160 like we've done with each piece. 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:33.129 But also here's a change that was made since module one or 00:06:33.129 --> 00:06:34.639 since module two. 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:37.439 This is a change that is proposed with the consolidated 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:38.000 draft. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:39.120 So that's how you'll track it. 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:42.120 This R4 piece is a little bit unique. 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:43.879 We don't traditionally do that. 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:48.829 We don't continue to update the code as we go because you 00:06:48.829 --> 00:06:50.120 would never get to the end 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:51.360 if you did that. 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:54.120 So this is treated as an addendum. 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:58.100 The main purpose of that is to have a conversation with the 00:06:58.100 --> 00:07:00.639 community about the zoning map. 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.180 They wanted to have something in place that is closer to 00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:04.959 where we think the districts 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:09.079 and uses will end up before adoption. 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:12.560 So that's why that piece was streamlined. 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:17.160 >> How are the public comments being compiled? 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:22.360 Is that being assembled in some kind of a spreadsheet or? 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:25.360 >> Everything needs to go through staff. 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:26.360 >> Right. 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:27.360 >> They're the placeholder. 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:32.180 Even with this OneDrive concept, if comments are coming 00:07:32.180 --> 00:07:34.360 from council, they all need to 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:37.360 be vetted through staff before they make their way to us. 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.360 >> How are the public comments being vetted? 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:43.360 >> We've got comment cards that we've established. 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:44.360 >> Right. 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:45.360 >> So that is -- 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:46.360 >> Then what are you doing? 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:48.420 >> We then take that and take the comments and insert it 00:07:48.420 --> 00:07:49.360 into a spreadsheet. 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:50.360 >> Okay. 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:51.360 >> So we've got it all put into one spreadsheet. 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:52.360 >> And then you'll have like a response? 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:53.360 >> Correct. 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:54.360 >> As to where it is already in the code. 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:54.910 >> What we're doing with one group, we have similar 00:07:54.910 --> 00:07:55.360 comments in the grouping. 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:55.930 But we also are receiving emails, so it's not just the 00:07:55.930 --> 00:07:56.360 comment cards written. 00:07:56.360 --> 00:07:57.079 So we're talking to someone where we're making sure we're 00:07:57.079 --> 00:07:57.360 taking notes. 00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:57.959 But if phone call or walk-ins, public open houses, but if 00:07:57.959 --> 00:07:58.360 they want to submit through 00:07:58.360 --> 00:07:59.360 email or online, they can do that as well. 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:12.800 And we'll make sure to copy those and put that into the 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:18.360 same spreadsheet. 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:20.360 >> Where can we see this spreadsheet? 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:21.360 Is it online? 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:22.360 >> It's probably just in-house. 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:23.360 It's not online. 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:24.360 But we can provide that to you. 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:25.360 >> Okay. 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:26.360 >> We can share that. 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:27.360 We can share that as we go. 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:27.970 And the purpose in that is the spreadsheet is really to try 00:08:27.970 --> 00:08:28.360 to categorize where those 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:28.990 comments really belong or if they hit multiple sections and 00:08:28.990 --> 00:08:29.360 then distill those comments down. 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:30.360 Because somebody -- 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:31.360 >> Okay. 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:31.970 >> -- one person makes a comment isn't necessarily going to 00:08:31.970 --> 00:08:32.360 make a change in the code. 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:33.019 However, if we have 100 people saying the same thing, then 00:08:33.019 --> 00:08:33.360 we ultimately are going to 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:34.029 distill that down to the point of where it is that we make 00:08:34.029 --> 00:08:34.360 recommendations. 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:35.360 >> Okay. 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:36.360 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:37.360 >> Okay. 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:38.360 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:39.360 >> Okay. 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:40.360 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:51.360 >> Okay. 00:08:51.360 --> 00:09:14.360 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:22.360 >> Okay. 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:45.360 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:55.360 >> Okay. 00:09:55.360 --> 00:10:00.360 >> Okay. 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:01.360 >> Okay. 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:02.360 That's good. 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:03.360 Thanks. 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:05.639 >> So I guess a follow-up then would be since we're not 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:07.159 going to get anything rewritten 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:10.950 until we get to the final draft, is are we going to be 00:10:10.950 --> 00:10:14.440 looking at it from a 30,000-foot 00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:17.470 level now and then we'll come back down to the ground and 00:10:17.470 --> 00:10:18.399 go back over? 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:19.399 Detail or? 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:20.399 >> You can do either. 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:21.200 >> Well, I think overall we're going to be getting into the 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:21.399 weeds. 00:10:21.399 --> 00:10:22.399 >> Right. 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:23.399 >> We're going to get into the detail on this. 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:23.889 The difference is I don't think as a committee you can 00:10:23.889 --> 00:10:24.399 probably make the best decisions without 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:25.399 getting all of the public input. 00:10:25.399 --> 00:10:26.399 So how much public input are we going to receive? 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:27.029 We may think collectively if we talk through something from 00:10:27.029 --> 00:10:27.399 our perspective that this is 00:10:27.399 --> 00:10:28.399 the best decision we can make. 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:29.399 >> Okay. 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:30.139 >> So I guess I'll just say that we're going to have to do 00:10:30.139 --> 00:10:30.399 that. 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:31.399 >> Okay. 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:32.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:33.399 >> Okay. 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:34.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:35.399 >> Okay. 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:36.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:45.399 >> Okay. 00:10:45.399 --> 00:11:14.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:15.399 >> Okay. 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:16.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:17.399 >> Okay. 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:18.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:19.399 >> Okay. 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:20.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:21.399 >> Okay. 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:22.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:23.399 >> Okay. 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:24.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:25.399 >> Okay. 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:26.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:27.399 >> Okay. 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:28.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:29.399 >> Okay. 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:30.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:31.399 >> Okay. 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:32.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:33.399 >> Okay. 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:34.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:35.399 >> Okay. 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:36.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:37.399 >> Okay. 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:38.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:45.399 >> Okay. 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:09.399 >> Okay. 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:10.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:11.399 >> Okay. 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:12.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:13.399 >> Okay. 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:14.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:15.399 >> Okay. 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:16.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:17.399 >> Okay. 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:18.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:19.399 >> Okay. 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:20.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:21.399 >> Okay. 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:22.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:23.399 >> Okay. 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:24.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:25.399 >> Okay. 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:26.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:27.399 >> Okay. 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:28.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:29.399 >> Okay. 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:30.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:31.399 >> Okay. 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:32.399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:39.399 >> Okay. 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:09.399 >> Okay. 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:39.399 >> Okay. 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:44.399 >> Okay. 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:51.399 >> Okay. 00:13:51.399 --> 00:14:03.399 >> Okay. 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:10.399 >> Okay. 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:11.399 >> Okay. 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:12.840 >> It's just a different process. 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:17.549 When we did the subchapter, the ESA, we did it bit by bit, 00:14:17.549 --> 00:14:20.039 and she showed the ones, the 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:23.190 specific changes, because not everything is going to be 00:14:23.190 --> 00:14:24.360 changed, right? 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:27.549 So there was just changes that we went through, and then we 00:14:27.549 --> 00:14:29.519 worked on it for several, several 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:33.009 meetings, and then that was the final draft, and that went 00:14:33.009 --> 00:14:34.039 to the public. 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:36.830 Then the comments, then it came back, and so it wasn't, you 00:14:36.830 --> 00:14:38.440 know, living change, change, 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:39.440 change. 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:41.730 It was something that we went through, and then the public 00:14:41.730 --> 00:14:42.779 got, and then we got back 00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:45.480 again to look at the comments and then make changes there. 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:46.480 So it's just a different -- 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:47.480 >> I actually think it's a similar process. 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:48.480 >> Is it? 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:49.480 Okay. 00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:53.330 >> He's saying it's a living document, but in our mind, you 00:14:53.330 --> 00:14:55.200 all are making comments on 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:56.200 it internally. 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:00.159 That feedback is going to come back to Clarion at some 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:02.639 point as a one file, here are all 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:06.909 of Denton's comments that we want you to address, and then 00:15:06.909 --> 00:15:09.639 we turn around another draft of the 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:13.639 entire BBC, and that is what goes out to the public. 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.639 >> As that's what we're proposing to adopt. 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:17.639 >> Okay. 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:21.259 >> So they'll have time to review the public document, the 00:15:21.259 --> 00:15:22.440 final changes. 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:23.440 Okay. 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:24.440 >> Yes. 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:26.960 It's just a matter of how is it we best get -- going to the 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:28.440 transparency piece, how do 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:29.440 we get this out to the public? 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:32.419 So we're giving them all of what we're proposing to do, so 00:15:32.419 --> 00:15:34.440 they get it in bite-sized pieces. 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.440 We're going to do the hard work. 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:40.440 We're going to -- and ultimately, we get that feedback. 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:43.000 Well, they may not understand the context of something 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:44.440 today as they make a comment, 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:48.440 but they're going to be able to understand it. 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:50.309 So if you looked at module two or module one, you didn't 00:15:50.309 --> 00:15:52.440 have module three, so can you get 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:54.440 the whole relationship, and then you can't. 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:56.440 So you're just looking at pieces and parts. 00:15:56.440 --> 00:16:01.620 >> And is this still conceivably going to be completed this 00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:02.440 year? 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.000 The idea is to complete it this year where it's implemented 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:07.440 and developers can -- 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:12.440 >> Do you have the draft calendar? 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:17.440 >> I seem to remember September being -- 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:19.440 >> Yeah, so if we -- 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:22.440 >> Yeah, we are obviously -- 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:25.440 >> Everything has been drafted at least once. 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:29.789 There is a public draft of the third module that is 00:16:29.789 --> 00:16:32.440 supposed to come to the south. 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:36.720 So now we're going to -- we want to put together the clean 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:39.440 est consolidated draft that we can 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.080 based on all of the feedback that we've received to this 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:44.440 point and that we received up until 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:48.139 the end of April so that when everything is put together 00:16:48.139 --> 00:16:50.440 into one document, it represents 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:53.440 as much feedback as possible. 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:57.559 We're close, and we're talking about the next month when 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:00.440 that document comes back and is 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:03.789 vetted for public review until you get it to the adoption 00:17:03.789 --> 00:17:04.440 phase. 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:08.559 So it is absolutely feasible that you're looking at late 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:10.440 summer, early fall. 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:11.440 >> Perfect. 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:12.440 Okay. 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:13.440 Okay. 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:20.059 Any other -- then we will move on to item E, receive a 00:17:20.059 --> 00:17:24.440 report, hold a discussion, provide 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:29.210 staff on the development code update to include the draft 00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:32.440 zoning map and receive a presentation 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:38.440 from Clarion regarding development module three. 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:44.589 >> So for a couple of you, you saw the presentation 00:17:44.589 --> 00:17:46.440 yesterday. 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:48.690 For the planning commissioners, you did not see that 00:17:48.690 --> 00:17:50.440 presentation yet, but you will tonight, 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:54.509 and we're going to skip over a lot of the stuff that's in 00:17:54.509 --> 00:17:56.440 here and just land on the 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:05.440 big focal points like Scott mentioned. 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:08.440 So thanks for your time today. 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:12.200 Just starting with the overall table of contents, this 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:14.440 third piece of the rewrite, the development 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:19.009 quality standards, there's a lot of information here, 00:18:19.009 --> 00:18:22.440 probably more to digest than the previous 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.440 modules, but a lot of important features here. 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:31.000 We have rolled in things like the ESA ordinance that was 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:32.440 just adopted. 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:33.440 We have reformatted it. 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.430 Still a little bit of cleanup necessary just to get the 00:18:36.430 --> 00:18:38.440 cross references right, but that 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:40.440 was carried forward. 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:45.869 We organized this chapter, this subchapter, from the ground 00:18:45.869 --> 00:18:46.440 up. 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:49.650 So beginning with things, how do we look at the site 00:18:49.650 --> 00:18:50.440 overall? 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:55.279 How do we capture grading and drainage and piped 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:57.440 infrastructure? 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:00.200 How do we think about the landscaping after that before we 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:02.440 even get to the building design? 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:05.200 And then what happens after the building design when we 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.440 think about the parking and exterior 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.440 lighting and electric standards? 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:13.440 So all of that is in this third and final piece. 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:17.529 We're not going to talk about each of those in terms of the 00:19:17.529 --> 00:19:19.440 formal presentation. 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:23.009 Certainly it's all on the table for discussion with this 00:19:23.009 --> 00:19:24.440 group especially. 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:26.440 So we'll take any questions that you have. 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:30.809 What I'm going to do for this presentation is just skip 00:19:30.809 --> 00:19:33.440 ahead to the summary of changes 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:38.269 in some of the big ones like landscaping, parking, building 00:19:38.269 --> 00:19:40.440 design, and lighting. 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:43.440 And then we'll just sit down and have a discussion. 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.740 We can walk through subchapter six, the development 00:19:45.740 --> 00:19:46.440 standards. 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.440 We can talk about subdivision. 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.400 If you have questions that are unrelated to this module 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.440 three, that's fine too. 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:58.440 Your committee is charged with providing that level of 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.440 feedback through all of the different parts of the code. 00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:04.440 So let's dive right in. 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:07.440 I'm going to skip through some of the fun pictures. 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.440 Landscaping, screening, buffering, and fences. 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:13.440 A lot of changes here. 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.150 First and foremost, and you'll see this throughout the 00:20:16.150 --> 00:20:17.440 development standards, 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:21.579 is that there's a lot more wiggle room given to staff at 00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:23.440 the director level. 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:28.799 There are procedures for alternative compliance to allow 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:31.440 you to propose something different, 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:34.529 still meeting the intent of the code, but giving you a 00:20:34.529 --> 00:20:38.440 little bit of flexibility due to site conditions 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:42.869 or because Denton has so much opportunity for infill and 00:20:42.869 --> 00:20:44.440 redevelopment. 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.240 This is particularly important in landscaping, and we've 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:48.440 heard a lot about issues. 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:50.440 Well, you're requiring street trees. 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:53.829 Well, the utility lines are in the only area where I could 00:20:53.829 --> 00:20:55.440 provide street trees. 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:57.440 So how am I supposed to do that? 00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:59.440 Yeah, that makes sense. 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:02.400 That's just good common sense development, and staff wants 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:05.440 to be able to work with those conditions 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:11.440 and find a solution that works for everybody. 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:24.440 Sure. 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:25.440 Wildflowers? 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:26.440 Yes. 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:27.440 Oh, sure. 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:29.920 Yeah, there's nothing that would prohibit that type of 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:30.440 thing. 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:34.869 I think you'd have to -- there's a fine line between weeds 00:21:34.869 --> 00:21:36.440 and wildflowers, 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:39.180 but that's a good enforcement question, and your nuisance 00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:41.440 team might have something to say about that. 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.829 But generally, in the code part of this, there's nothing 00:21:44.829 --> 00:21:51.440 that would prohibit you from doing something like that. 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.440 Simplified the buffering standards. 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:56.440 This is pretty new. 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:59.440 Right now, you do have buffering standards. 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.369 You recognize that there are challenges with some types of 00:22:03.369 --> 00:22:06.440 land uses adjacent to less intense land uses. 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:10.740 And the bigger the difference in those land use types, the 00:22:10.740 --> 00:22:14.440 greatest example is single-family residential 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:19.240 next to higher-intensity non-residential uses -- commercial 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:20.440 , industrial. 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:22.440 How do we treat those transitions? 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:24.440 Well, we can do that through buffers. 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:29.440 Certain incompatible uses require more points. 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.440 We're moving to a point-based system for buffering. 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:33.440 Larry. 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:34.440 Yeah. 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:36.440 Who benefits from the points? 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:40.599 I'm not sure I fully understand who benefits from the point 00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:41.440 system. 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:45.940 Do the developers get this for later down the road and what 00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:48.440 they can and can't do with mitigation? 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:49.440 I'm sorry. 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.480 I just -- and if it's going to be too elaborate, we can 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:52.440 deal with it later. 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:55.440 But I was -- I didn't understand the point system. 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:56.440 Let's jump right in. 00:22:56.440 --> 00:23:00.539 So a lot of communities use -- this is basically a 00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:04.440 performance-based zoning tool where instead of having a 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:08.240 black-and-white regulation that says, here is how you shall 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.440 do development, you can say, there are probably 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.799 a lot of good ways to address the issue, which is incompat 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:19.440 ible land uses and how do we buffer between those. 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:22.680 You as a development community probably have a lot of good 00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:25.440 ideas for how you might treat that scenario. 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.440 We're not going to limit you. 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:29.519 What we're going to do is say we still have a minimum bar 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:32.440 that needs to be set, which is the base point system. 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:35.440 You need more points, the more incompatibility there is. 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.440 But we're not going to tell you exactly how to get there. 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:41.440 If you want to build a wall, that will get you more points. 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:42.440 Okay. 00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:44.049 If you want to have a wider buffer, that gets you more 00:23:44.049 --> 00:23:44.440 points. 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:45.440 Maybe I didn't make myself clear. 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.660 What it seemed like it was saying is, yeah, we were still 00:23:48.660 --> 00:23:51.440 specifying what they need, what's allowed. 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:52.440 Yeah. 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.440 We were giving them points for it, and I don't understand. 00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:57.440 Well, we're not awarding points. 00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:58.440 I should be clear on that. 00:23:58.440 --> 00:23:59.440 Okay. 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:00.440 Points are not awarded. 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:04.690 You have to earn a certain number of points to meet the 00:24:04.690 --> 00:24:05.440 code. 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:09.329 So if you are industrial next to single-family use, you 00:24:09.329 --> 00:24:12.440 need to earn 50 points of buffering. 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:13.440 All right. 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:15.029 And you can earn those points through lots of different 00:24:15.029 --> 00:24:15.440 methods. 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:17.440 I thought it was something they could cash in later. 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:20.730 No, you cannot collect your chips and use them for other 00:24:20.730 --> 00:24:21.440 things. 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:22.440 Gotcha. 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:23.440 All right. 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:24.440 Thanks. 00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:26.880 And we will have a specific table of what equals certain 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:27.440 points? 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:28.440 Yes. 00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:31.440 Turn to page 55 in module three. 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:32.440 Yeah. 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:38.440 So you can see how this works. 00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:40.440 You need 50 points. 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:44.500 I mentioned the single-family residential adjacent to 00:24:44.500 --> 00:24:47.440 industrial, and I know, Ms. Braggs, 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.690 you brought up yesterday, we're not even going to approve 00:24:49.690 --> 00:24:50.440 that scenario. 00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:52.440 You might have some of that on the ground now. 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:54.859 And so to get those points, you're going to see very 00:24:54.859 --> 00:24:57.440 quickly, you need to use a lot more 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:00.440 of those buffering options to hit that 50 points. 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.440 There's no one thing in that table that gets you there. 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:06.440 So you have to use a combination at that point. 00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:09.440 Street trees, shrubs, are you finding it? 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:10.440 On page 55? 00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:13.440 Yeah, 54 and 55, I think. 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:14.440 55, 56. 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:15.440 Okay. 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:16.440 6.7.4. 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:17.440 Yeah. 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:18.440 Yes. 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:19.440 Okay. 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:24.440 Where is it showing they have to have a total number? 00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:28.059 So the first table, which you're looking at actually, shows 00:25:28.059 --> 00:25:31.440 the developing uses in that 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.440 first column. 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:35.440 So that's what's being proposed. 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:39.710 If you're proposing that developing use, now you look 00:25:39.710 --> 00:25:42.440 across that top row, what is adjacent 00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:43.440 to me? 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:45.619 And then you find the cell that says, here's how many 00:25:45.619 --> 00:25:46.440 points you need. 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:48.990 Then the following table, the shorter table on the opposite 00:25:48.990 --> 00:25:50.440 page says, here are some options 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:51.440 for earning points. 00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:52.440 Got it. 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:57.680 And I might also add, I think it is safe to say, this is 00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:01.440 definitely not less restrictive. 00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:06.440 I don't want to say that it's more restrictive. 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:10.440 I want to say that it's designed to build a better event. 00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:14.009 So we know the importance of buffering and landscaping, and 00:26:14.009 --> 00:26:15.440 we're trying to promote that. 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.440 We're just trying to provide the flexibility in doing it. 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:20.960 But it certainly isn't less restrictive than what we have 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:21.440 today. 00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:22.440 It just gives them more choice. 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:23.440 It's just smarter. 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:24.440 Okay. 00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:27.759 It'll be more appropriate, especially when we talk about 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:29.440 the infill development. 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.440 I have a question on the--I'm sorry. 00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:33.440 Oh, go ahead. 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:36.440 So how does this--will this correlate with the tree code? 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:38.440 Because I do see trees here as an option. 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:42.640 Would those kind of be added extra if they were doing 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.440 development and they had to reach 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:47.440 a certain amount, or would it be counted towards? 00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:53.640 I mean, are you--is this an extra addition, or is it going 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:57.440 to be allowed for their credits? 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:01.440 Yes, it'll be allowed for their credits in the landscaping, 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:02.440 not going to take away from 00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:04.440 the tree code. 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:07.529 And that's where I was trying to explain how complicated 00:27:07.529 --> 00:27:09.440 the tree code is and how it is 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:11.440 that we have to look at other means for canopy. 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:14.509 So when we talk about parking lot standards, we're going to 00:27:14.509 --> 00:27:15.440 talk about trees and increasing 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:19.299 tree and tree canopy, which also may count towards their 00:27:19.299 --> 00:27:20.440 landscaping, not necessarily 00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:22.440 towards their buffering. 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.480 So there'll be credits given because if you add more trees 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.440 by requirement, it isn't necessarily 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:33.049 going to add to what the buffering requirements are, if 00:27:33.049 --> 00:27:34.440 that makes sense. 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:36.440 Unless you have a more open-ended way of putting it. 00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:38.440 No, I think that's right. 00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:39.440 You can double count things. 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:42.690 If I've got trees on the site, whether I'm using them in 00:27:42.690 --> 00:27:44.440 the buffer or for my general 00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:46.440 tree requirement, those trees count. 00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.440 And the same goes for parking lot landscaping. 00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:53.160 If you are requiring me in the parking section to provide 00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:55.440 landscaping in the parking lot, 00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:59.440 that also counts towards your minimum landscaping required 00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:01.440 because it's all part of your site. 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.440 But if it's still required, it's not going to... 00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:05.440 It's still required. 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:07.690 Because you're preserving a patch of trees and, say, the 00:28:07.690 --> 00:28:08.440 back of the site, you're still 00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:09.440 going to be required to have them. 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:10.440 Correct. 00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:11.440 You're going to have both. 00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:12.440 You're going to have both more. 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:13.440 Increasing the canopy. 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:19.609 Digging into the weeds just a little bit on the table of 00:28:19.609 --> 00:28:23.440 the buffer elements, do we have 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:28.440 a definition of ornamental versus large tree? 00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:31.769 And if so, on ornamental, I would imagine that three-inch 00:28:31.769 --> 00:28:33.440 is probably going to be very 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.650 difficult to get three-inch caliper ornamental because I 00:28:36.650 --> 00:28:38.440 think of that as a desert willow 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:43.440 or your understory trees, that's almost their maximum size. 00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:47.500 And that's another part of the tree code that we're working 00:28:47.500 --> 00:28:50.440 through is those defining caliper 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:54.589 and how we're measuring tree, whether it's tree DBH or if 00:28:54.589 --> 00:28:57.440 we're talking about the canopy 00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:02.440 and several different elements to doing that. 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:06.220 And so with that, that is where some of these will come in 00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:08.440 like the certain types of trees 00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:11.099 that would qualify because there are some currently like a 00:29:11.099 --> 00:29:12.440 crape myrtle is considered 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:14.440 a tree, which it's not. 00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:17.759 It doesn't actually have the exact benefits that a tree 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:19.440 would, a regular tree. 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:20.440 Different tree. 00:29:20.440 --> 00:29:21.440 Right. 00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.440 And then it'll all be addressed in the tree code. 00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:25.440 Okay. 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:28.440 But then that will reference back here. 00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:31.220 I mean, they'll kind of go hand in hand with what's allowed 00:29:31.220 --> 00:29:31.440 . 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:32.440 Okay. 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:35.470 And then I think as part of that, the criteria manual, it 00:29:35.470 --> 00:29:37.440 'll give you that sort of breakdown 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.440 of tree type or designation of trees. 00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:45.730 It was my understanding too, if I may, that the tree code 00:29:45.730 --> 00:29:48.440 was going to fall from canopy 00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:49.440 rather than diameter. 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:53.549 Has that changed or do we, I know the state did some things 00:29:53.549 --> 00:29:55.440 to us that kind of tied our 00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:58.440 hands, but is that still there? 00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:00.440 That's where the draft is at. 00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:01.440 Okay. 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:02.440 Is with tree canopy. 00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:03.440 Okay. 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:05.730 And again, we're just looking at other opportunities to 00:30:05.730 --> 00:30:07.440 improve tree canopy where the tree code 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:10.869 doesn't address that meaning in landscaping and parking 00:30:10.869 --> 00:30:11.440 lots. 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:12.440 Okay. 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:13.440 Okay. 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:14.440 Good. 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:15.440 Thanks. 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:19.079 But yeah, generally the trees that are regulated through 00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:21.759 the tree code and through the appropriate 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.779 species list that is retained on file with staff, that all 00:30:25.779 --> 00:30:28.240 applies to buffer and landscaping 00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:29.440 standards as well. 00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:31.440 Same trees. 00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:34.039 Okay. 00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:38.349 Other questions about this, about the, just the point-based 00:30:38.349 --> 00:30:39.640 buffer system? 00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:40.640 I think this is good. 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.390 We should be getting into this level of dialogue before we 00:30:43.390 --> 00:30:44.960 just move on to other topics. 00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:47.869 This will probably be where you get a lot from the public 00:30:47.869 --> 00:30:49.440 tonight too, I suspect. 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:50.440 Yeah. 00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:51.440 Yeah. 00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:52.440 So be prepared. 00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:53.440 Well, yeah. 00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:55.509 And questions are going to come up about trees and tree 00:30:55.509 --> 00:30:57.000 code and we can do a little bit through 00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:58.720 the development code. 00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:02.789 Some of that is just fluid right now and so we'll be 00:31:02.789 --> 00:31:03.920 prepared. 00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:05.400 Okay. 00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:07.960 All right. 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.480 Another important change and feature of this revised 00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:14.000 landscaping screening buffering is 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:18.480 LID, and low impact development practices. 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.279 A lot of these are green infrastructure options that talk 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:24.720 about instead of putting water into 00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:27.819 pipes underneath the ground or draining directly onto imper 00:31:27.819 --> 00:31:29.799 vious surfaces, how can we actually 00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:33.319 treat water as it moves across a site? 00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:37.809 Through rain gardens, through bioretention facilities, 00:31:37.809 --> 00:31:40.759 through swales even, through porous 00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:45.170 pavers which you currently allow as a replacement for some 00:31:45.170 --> 00:31:46.079 parking. 00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:50.150 Those types of things actually are better than providing 00:31:50.150 --> 00:31:52.440 big concrete pipes underneath 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:54.960 the ground and can be cheaper. 00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:58.289 So rather than mandating that approach, we have listed this 00:31:58.289 --> 00:31:59.759 as an option that could be 00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:03.559 considered for developers that would like to do this. 00:32:03.559 --> 00:32:06.539 I think what you might see in the consolidated draft is 00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:08.559 more of an incentive to do that type 00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:13.529 of development because just improving the water quality and 00:32:13.529 --> 00:32:15.640 reducing runoff is a good 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:17.839 thing for development. 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:21.599 And so we have included them as options. 00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.059 So I'd encourage you to look through those and let us know 00:32:24.059 --> 00:32:25.160 if there are others. 00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:28.740 This requires a lot of coordination with Public Works, with 00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:30.720 engineering, just to make sure 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:33.349 that they have best management practices to accommodate 00:32:33.349 --> 00:32:34.960 these types of features, and they 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.079 do, and making sure that we reference those materials 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:39.119 accordingly. 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.170 The incentive being that it would be cheaper for the 00:32:43.170 --> 00:32:46.000 developer to do the LID practice as 00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:49.960 opposed to digging a ditch and putting a pipe in the ground 00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:51.960 to remove water, right? 00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:55.859 Yeah, it's actually better for the treatment of water, and 00:32:55.859 --> 00:32:57.640 a lot of these features are 00:32:57.640 --> 00:33:00.799 actually very nice, aesthetically pleasing features. 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:01.799 Agreed. 00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:05.170 There could be other incentives too for the developer, not 00:33:05.170 --> 00:33:06.799 only the cost savings, but 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:09.900 maybe if you do a bioswale, maybe that counts as a higher 00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:11.799 percentage for the landscaping 00:33:11.799 --> 00:33:12.799 requirements. 00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:17.839 So there's different tools that you can use in the code to 00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:19.799 say, "Maybe I don't want to 00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:24.500 do a bioswale, but it makes more sense for me to do that, 00:33:24.500 --> 00:33:26.799 because if I do that, then 00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:30.190 I don't have to do something else that maybe wouldn't have 00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:31.799 to be done in the past." 00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:35.079 So on that, I know that the Committee on the Environment, 00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:36.799 we passed a resolution, and we 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:39.799 discussed it recently, like the razor ranch out here. 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:43.930 A lot was developed under I-SWIM, and that we had a 00:33:43.930 --> 00:33:46.799 discussion that we would like for 00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:48.799 that to be in the code. 00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:51.670 I know here it's referred to low-impact development, but I 00:33:51.670 --> 00:33:53.799 think that's kind of the same thing. 00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:56.799 So will we be making reference to that? 00:33:56.799 --> 00:34:01.359 Because I know that in the Committee, we would like for 00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:03.799 that to be done on commercial property 00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:05.799 more often than not. 00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:10.250 We actually did reference I-SWIM in the purpose statement 00:34:10.250 --> 00:34:12.800 for these LID principles for low-impact 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.800 development, recognizing the work that's already been done. 00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:17.800 That's a big deal that you should celebrate. 00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:21.820 Denton's an I-SWIM community, and by gosh, we're going to 00:34:21.820 --> 00:34:23.800 start requiring this stuff 00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:26.800 at some point, and we want it to be this way. 00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:31.329 They've received what Council had just passed as far as ESA 00:34:31.329 --> 00:34:32.800 , so they've just received that 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:36.699 information the last couple of weeks, and of course, 00:34:36.699 --> 00:34:38.800 incorporating it in this. 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:42.119 The I-SWIM, we had different discussions on it a while back 00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:43.800 , too, but anybody that's 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:48.969 driven the razor ranch property on the site can see what a 00:34:48.969 --> 00:34:51.800 benefit that is to the area. 00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:53.800 Where is that referenced? 00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:57.690 It's actually on page 61, where we talk about site design 00:34:57.690 --> 00:34:59.800 for low-impact development. 00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:03.300 The last sentence of that purpose statement, and we've got 00:35:03.300 --> 00:35:04.800 a footnote saying Denton is 00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:08.800 silver certified in I-SWIM, and this is something. 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:12.210 Beyond that technical aspect of it, two years ago when we 00:35:12.210 --> 00:35:13.800 met with stakeholders, part of 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:17.369 the challenge with the current landscaping standards was, 00:35:17.369 --> 00:35:18.800 well, why don't we just take 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:22.800 what they did in razor ranch and put that into the code? 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:27.800 That was a big driver for what you see on the page here. 00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:32.809 If that was referenced, too, in the updated drainage manual 00:35:32.809 --> 00:35:35.800 s that was just passed as well. 00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:37.800 So that's the route. 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:39.800 So we're consistent. 00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:40.800 Right. 00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:45.119 We're working very hard, and this is just truly a smarter 00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:45.800 code. 00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:49.769 It's simpler, but it's a smarter code, and it is that we 00:35:49.769 --> 00:35:51.800 had not only best practices, 00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:54.360 but even trying to get us to contemporary practices, 00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:55.800 because so many of the things that 00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.320 we've done, we just kind of did because we've always done 00:35:58.320 --> 00:35:58.800 them. 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:00.820 And this really takes that, and Clarion has done a great 00:36:00.820 --> 00:36:01.800 job of integrating all of our 00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:05.079 different components, all of our criteria and analysis, as 00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:06.800 well as the different chapters 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:12.800 that we're going to have included as part of the code. 00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:14.800 Okay. 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:19.210 I should note, some communities require that you do LID to 00:36:19.210 --> 00:36:20.800 a certain extent. 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:21.800 Not a lot. 00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:25.170 Most of them are still in the optional phase, which is how 00:36:25.170 --> 00:36:26.800 it's been drafted here. 00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:28.800 But again, we'll work with staff. 00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:32.030 We'll hear your opinions, too, on whether or not this 00:36:32.030 --> 00:36:33.800 should be a bigger incentive for 00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:35.800 those to be achieved. 00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:38.800 Has there been discussion of what the incentives might be? 00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:42.800 Has that ongoing discussion been started? 00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:48.079 I think one thing we had talked about was just getting more 00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:49.800 credit towards your required 00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:54.050 landscaping, so saying maybe less landscaping percentage is 00:36:54.050 --> 00:36:55.800 required if you're going to 00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:59.019 use these types of features, because you're doing the same 00:36:59.019 --> 00:37:00.800 type of treatment that a larger 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.800 landscaped area would provide for the site. 00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:07.050 Is that something we're planning to put in the code, is 00:37:07.050 --> 00:37:08.800 what the incentives are? 00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:11.800 Yeah, that's the question here today. 00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:15.110 Right now, you have a little bit of that, just with your 00:37:15.110 --> 00:37:17.800 porous pavers, if you're exceeding 00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.530 the maximum parking limit, you say, well, you can do that, 00:37:20.530 --> 00:37:21.800 but everything above that 00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:23.800 point needs to be porous. 00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:27.260 I'm not sure we're going to carry that forward, but there 00:37:27.260 --> 00:37:29.800 are other things you can do in your 00:37:29.800 --> 00:37:33.789 parking lot, like putting a swale and cutting the curb to 00:37:33.789 --> 00:37:35.800 let the water drain through into 00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:39.949 that swale rather than following the curb line out into the 00:37:39.949 --> 00:37:40.800 street. 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:44.800 There may be credits to your required parking for that. 00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:48.670 If you could check with the Catherine Barnett from our 00:37:48.670 --> 00:37:50.800 environmental committee, because I 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:54.940 do believe that it was recommended that we, from this point 00:37:54.940 --> 00:37:56.800 as we were developing the 00:37:56.800 --> 00:38:01.929 new code, at least require some part of that lot to be ice- 00:38:01.929 --> 00:38:02.800 born. 00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:03.800 Okay. 00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:05.800 It's a recommendation from the committee. 00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:06.800 Great. 00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:08.800 This is the opportunity then. 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:13.150 So if we can go back to that, if we can have the minutes 00:38:13.150 --> 00:38:15.800 pulled from that committee and 00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:19.650 then pull them up to discuss here, maybe we can talk about 00:38:19.650 --> 00:38:20.800 incentives. 00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:25.800 So from our recollection, that's where we wanted to go. 00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:26.800 Okay. 00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:27.800 That's helpful. 00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:33.679 I see Scott jotting that down and Athena typing away, so we 00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:36.800 will not lose that thought. 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:37.800 Okay. 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:38.800 And I've got a concern. 00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:42.559 This is more in the long-term of items, but on the street 00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:44.800 trees that we're requiring them 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:49.750 to be between the sidewalk and the street, because that is 00:38:49.750 --> 00:38:52.800 generally all right away easement 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:56.800 area and that's where utilities come back in. 00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:59.929 When files came through town, we lost a lot of trees over 00:38:59.929 --> 00:39:01.800 the next couple of years because 00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:05.800 they bored underneath them and the root system got torn up. 00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:09.050 We say with any certain distance behind there as well that 00:39:09.050 --> 00:39:10.800 you don't end up losing those 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:14.139 trees over time because of it being right away that could 00:39:14.139 --> 00:39:15.800 potentially be disturbed and 00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:16.800 dug up. 00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:21.070 And that is the very reason we included that alternative 00:39:21.070 --> 00:39:23.639 landscaping provision in there 00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:26.400 to say there's a lot of that going on in Denton. 00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:28.320 We heard that loud and clear. 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:31.099 You need to have the flexibility to put trees where they're 00:39:31.099 --> 00:39:32.760 going to survive, where they're 00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:33.760 going to be most appropriate. 00:39:33.760 --> 00:39:38.199 And I might add some other conversations that are taking 00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:40.760 place is how we look at our right 00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:43.760 of ways and where it is those utilities are going. 00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.469 So if we're going to have a divided street, then are we 00:39:47.469 --> 00:39:49.760 going to put those in the median 00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:52.760 or are we going to put street trees in the median? 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:55.760 Are we going to use the outer lane to put utilities? 00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:58.190 So then we have the ability to do street trees without 00:39:58.190 --> 00:40:00.760 having utilities within that, that 00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:04.900 those utilities will be located in the drive line or in a 00:40:04.900 --> 00:40:05.760 median. 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:09.760 But those are generally the city's utilities. 00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:15.760 I'm talking about the gas and Fios and those lines that are 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:15.760 ... 00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:17.760 And we're looking at all of that. 00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:20.030 So just having some more of those broader and a little 00:40:20.030 --> 00:40:20.760 longer term. 00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:23.909 So how do we correct some of the sins of the past and kind 00:40:23.909 --> 00:40:25.760 of continue and what do we want 00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:27.760 for aesthetics? 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:31.710 So when we look at the next transportation manual, that's 00:40:31.710 --> 00:40:33.760 going to be some more of those 00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:37.090 conversations when we look at how it is that we design 00:40:37.090 --> 00:40:37.760 those. 00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:40.030 It's really easy for the new stuff, for the green field 00:40:40.030 --> 00:40:40.760 development. 00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:44.059 If we get it right here, then we're preventing that from 00:40:44.059 --> 00:40:45.760 happening in the future. 00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:49.119 It's a lot more challenging for redevelopment and retrof 00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:49.760 itting. 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.630 But we think some of this will get you there because you're 00:40:53.630 --> 00:40:55.760 able to have some flexibility 00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:06.230 at the director level without having to lodge a big 00:41:06.230 --> 00:41:09.760 negotiation. 00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:18.760 Other things we should talk about with landscaping. 00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:24.449 And we can come back to it as well, certainly, but let's 00:41:24.449 --> 00:41:26.760 move into parking. 00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:30.760 Are we skipping fences? 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:33.760 I didn't have any major changes on fencing. 00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:37.880 I know you had asked about that yesterday, but no, let's 00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:39.760 talk about fences now. 00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:42.900 Well, I'll just say that I live in an older, more 00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:44.760 established neighborhood. 00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:48.760 It's a mix of different types of fences. 00:41:48.760 --> 00:41:54.139 There's a nice creek running through, so there's a lot of 00:41:54.139 --> 00:41:57.760 homes that have the creek to look out into. 00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:05.179 Some people -- okay, so right now we require, from what I 00:42:05.179 --> 00:42:07.760 understand, a wood fence. 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:11.280 And so you have a lot of people building very cheap, not so 00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:13.760 good wood fences that fall down 00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:16.659 when there's a big gust of wind, and you have a lot of 00:42:16.659 --> 00:42:19.599 people getting cited for broken fences and things like that 00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:19.760 . 00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:21.760 Right. 00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:26.329 The request was that at some point chain link fences were 00:42:26.329 --> 00:42:29.760 just completely not allowed in neighborhood residential 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:31.760 anymore. 00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:34.760 I think unless they have one, they can be grandfathered in. 00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:37.619 I'm not sure if that's still the case or not, but I wanted 00:42:37.619 --> 00:42:39.760 to get clarification on that 00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:44.320 and see what the options are for a homeowner that doesn't 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:46.760 want a wood fence, 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:51.219 but can't necessarily afford a full raw iron fence for the 00:42:51.219 --> 00:42:52.760 whole property. 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:54.760 Right. 00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:56.760 Page 63. 00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:58.760 I'll take those as -- 00:42:58.760 --> 00:43:01.760 Yeah, I'm looking, but I see raw iron, masonry, brick. 00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:04.760 Those are things that you can't really see through. 00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:07.760 If you want to enjoy your backyard and enjoy the -- 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:10.760 That's a perimeter fence of a subdivision. 00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:13.760 So that's a bigger deal. 00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:16.469 That is the thing that's going to surround and most likely 00:43:16.469 --> 00:43:19.760 be backing up to an arterial or a collector. 00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:23.380 Those are important features that if dilapidated, no one 00:43:23.380 --> 00:43:25.760 person is responsible for that 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.849 because you're dealing with an HOA at that point or some 00:43:28.849 --> 00:43:30.760 other type of organization. 00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:34.480 The standard above that, you do have the option to use wood 00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:34.760 . 00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:38.119 You do have the option to use PVC, architectural metal 00:43:38.119 --> 00:43:39.760 panels, composite materials, 00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:43.469 all of those things that are individual choices for what 00:43:43.469 --> 00:43:46.760 you want your property to look like. 00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:49.760 So the maintenance side will still be true. 00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:53.570 You will still get citations if you let your fence fall 00:43:53.570 --> 00:43:54.760 into disrepair, 00:43:54.760 --> 00:43:59.090 but you're not going to be required to build a wall around 00:43:59.090 --> 00:43:59.760 your property 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:04.000 unless you're part of that perimeter fencing of the subdiv 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:04.760 ision. 00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:08.880 Now, the chain link, we've been very specific in there on 00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:10.760 that same page, item C, 00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:15.420 that those are allowed but for agricultural, institutional, 00:44:15.420 --> 00:44:16.760 or industrial. 00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:20.119 So the idea is that, no, you don't want to encourage or 00:44:20.119 --> 00:44:26.760 even allow chain link fencing for residential uses. 00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:29.760 There may be some out there. 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:32.760 Well, you probably have a lot of those out there now. 00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:38.010 And whether or not those become nonconforming fences that 00:44:38.010 --> 00:44:41.570 the city would try to chase down as they become dilapidated 00:44:41.570 --> 00:44:41.760 , 00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:45.760 I guess that's a question for staff at that point. 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:48.860 I guess my question is why not a chain link fence for a 00:44:48.860 --> 00:44:51.760 neighborhood or residential? 00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:52.760 Especially in the backyard. 00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:53.760 In the backyard. 00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:57.929 That's my question because you get everybody -- the people 00:44:57.929 --> 00:45:00.760 that approach me would rather have that 00:45:00.760 --> 00:45:03.760 so they can see their neighbors, speak to their neighbors, 00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:05.760 enjoy the creek 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:10.289 rather than have a giant fence where you can't communicate 00:45:10.289 --> 00:45:11.760 or see or anything. 00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:13.760 And so right now we prohibit that. 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:15.760 We don't allow that no matter what. 00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:18.760 And so that's my question, I guess, is why. 00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:23.760 And I'll give you the flippant answer. 00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:24.760 That's the way they've always done it. 00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:27.760 I don't know why that is. 00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:29.760 I question that myself. 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:33.210 So again, privacy fences create just that, a lack of 00:45:33.210 --> 00:45:37.090 community or neighborhood by virtue that I can't see or 00:45:37.090 --> 00:45:37.760 talk. 00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.409 If somebody chooses, they have the option to build a wood 00:45:40.409 --> 00:45:42.760 fence, but we're not allowing a chain link. 00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:46.550 And I have to assume that that was council-driven at some 00:45:46.550 --> 00:45:47.760 point in time. 00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:50.230 Why is that I've challenged most of the code to say we have 00:45:50.230 --> 00:45:51.760 to rethink what we're doing. 00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:54.760 This is another one of those instances. 00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:59.699 And you as this committee saying it's very simple to say 00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:01.760 chain link construct -- well, 00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:05.469 or maybe it's just even omitting C, short of the fact that 00:46:05.469 --> 00:46:08.309 perhaps we don't want it in a front yard or something to 00:46:08.309 --> 00:46:08.760 that effect, 00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:12.760 whatever the direction may be. 00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:15.800 But I don't know what would prohibit that other than that's 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:17.760 the way that we've always done it. 00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:21.760 Could we add the chain link is only allowed where it's not 00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:24.760 viewable from the public right of way. 00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:26.809 So in other words, when you're doing between your house and 00:46:26.809 --> 00:46:28.760 your neighbor's house, you put wood there, 00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:32.300 but then you can run a chain link down the center and chain 00:46:32.300 --> 00:46:35.409 link along the back creek because that's not viewable from 00:46:35.409 --> 00:46:36.760 the public right of way. 00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:38.760 There may be a way to say that. 00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:39.760 Yeah. 00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:42.409 It gets a little challenging because if I don't have a 00:46:42.409 --> 00:46:43.760 fence and I live the block behind you, 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:46.760 then I can see the public -- from the public right of way, 00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:48.760 I can see that chain link fence. 00:46:48.760 --> 00:46:52.760 So people will split hairs on that. 00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:57.000 But certainly -- or we can be more prescriptive to say, you 00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:00.760 know, fencing facing the public right of way must be -- 00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:02.760 Yeah, I like that better. 00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:04.760 Yeah, I like that. 00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:08.340 It's just that it lasts longer, they're not blowing down, 00:47:08.340 --> 00:47:10.760 you know, and they can be very nice. 00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:12.760 Don't disagree. 00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:16.210 Somewhere there was direction that it ended up and shame on 00:47:16.210 --> 00:47:18.760 me because I'm always challenging the why. 00:47:18.760 --> 00:47:23.010 And I didn't challenge this other than to say that this is 00:47:23.010 --> 00:47:26.239 one of Denton's rules that you must put structural members 00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:27.760 on the inside of a fence. 00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:29.480 So if you're building a wood fence, you must put the 00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:30.760 structural members to the inside. 00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:33.599 So the posts and the brackets have to be on your side of 00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:36.760 the fence so you put the pretty side to your neighbors. 00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:40.760 We did challenge the fence code here. 00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:44.050 And there are some things that are very common around the 00:47:44.050 --> 00:47:44.760 nation. 00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:47.760 One is prohibiting chain link fencing. 00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:51.760 Most neighborhoods don't want to allow chain link fencing. 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:53.760 It's been a trend for many years. 00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:57.119 So most codes that we write have a standard like this in 00:47:57.119 --> 00:47:57.760 there. 00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:00.800 You already have that in there, so we didn't really 00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:02.760 challenge that aspect of it. 00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:04.760 Fence height is a different story. 00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:08.539 You allow eight foot fences, whereas most communities would 00:48:08.539 --> 00:48:11.750 never consider that type of fence height without some sort 00:48:11.750 --> 00:48:12.760 of a variance. 00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:16.920 We did challenge that and we're told no, this is what we do 00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:18.760 here and that is fine. 00:48:18.760 --> 00:48:22.760 So that's the purpose of this committee, though. 00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:27.019 If we want to talk about chain link fencing, I think that's 00:48:27.019 --> 00:48:27.760 fine. 00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:30.219 I think chain link fence was more of an aesthetic, but I 00:48:30.219 --> 00:48:33.710 wrote down here affordability is probably another factor we 00:48:33.710 --> 00:48:34.760 need to factor into. 00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:37.010 So I think what Scott mentioned, as long as it's not 00:48:37.010 --> 00:48:39.960 visible from the public right away, I think that we can 00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:43.760 then take care of some of the affordability concerns. 00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:50.570 I think when this came through 2003-2004 time frame that we 00:48:50.570 --> 00:48:56.090 did away with chain link, it has been an option in the 00:48:56.090 --> 00:49:00.030 discussion at the time was to possibly allow vinyl coated 00:49:00.030 --> 00:49:01.760 chain link. 00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:04.760 And somehow that never got put in there. 00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:07.760 So one was taken away and nothing was added back. 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:08.760 Right. 00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:09.760 Okay. 00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:11.760 And that's fairly prescriptive. 00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:15.119 Yeah, and I've worked in communities where the fencing was 00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:15.760 a big deal. 00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:18.789 And typically the chain link is working in most residential 00:49:18.789 --> 00:49:20.760 areas just for character reasons. 00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.750 But in one community, we wrote a code that said you could 00:49:24.750 --> 00:49:27.760 have chain link based on your law size. 00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:32.420 So if you had bigger than a square foot lot, then you could 00:49:32.420 --> 00:49:36.219 have chain link in small lots in a more residential or 00:49:36.219 --> 00:49:37.760 urban area setting. 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:41.730 And that would allow, it helped cost because if you have a 00:49:41.730 --> 00:49:44.760 really big law, you have a lot of fence. 00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:47.760 So that would help with the cost. 00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:51.250 So there's a lot of approaches you can take to allow chain 00:49:51.250 --> 00:49:54.760 link in some circumstances or in all circumstances. 00:49:54.760 --> 00:49:57.809 Well, just because you were talking about having the 00:49:57.809 --> 00:50:01.170 flexibility, allowing that flexibility for someone who's 00:50:01.170 --> 00:50:04.760 getting the permit to decide or to look at the case by case 00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:05.760 . 00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:12.119 Just completely prohibiting it, you know, is, I would like 00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:14.760 to reevaluate that. 00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:18.760 And the issue is, we have chain link fences out there now. 00:50:18.760 --> 00:50:19.760 Yes. 00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:23.050 I mean, it's on my property on one side of it so my dogs 00:50:23.050 --> 00:50:23.760 can see. 00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:25.760 Yeah, you can come and cite me all you want. 00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:27.760 My house is 40 years ago. 00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:33.639 So that doesn't make any sense to not, you know, it's wood 00:50:33.639 --> 00:50:36.780 everywhere else. But I mean, that was put in gosh knows how 00:50:36.780 --> 00:50:37.760 long ago, probably four years ago. 00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:40.760 So I mean, and they're out there in all over the place. 00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:41.760 And still standing. 00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:45.150 And still, but I mean, so what are we really trying to do 00:50:45.150 --> 00:50:48.760 and say by, I mean, that's what we have to figure out. 00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:49.760 Right. Right. 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:53.559 I get why we don't want them all over it and actually made 00:50:53.559 --> 00:50:57.440 a good point why you wouldn't want them in this tiny, you 00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:59.760 know, perhaps urban area. 00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:04.510 But we probably need to somehow add that back in in some 00:51:04.510 --> 00:51:05.760 capacity. 00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.869 Because what are you saying to all those people who have 00:51:08.869 --> 00:51:10.760 chain link fences right now? 00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:15.760 You're nonconform. 00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:19.809 I don't like regulating by lot size for fence type that 00:51:19.809 --> 00:51:23.159 that to me, I'd be nervous standing in front of court of 00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:25.760 law saying, because your lot is smaller. 00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:28.409 You can't have chain link fence, but if you have a bigger 00:51:28.409 --> 00:51:32.380 lot, could you allow it in certain zoning districts, so 00:51:32.380 --> 00:51:35.760 that yeah, and that's what we've done. 00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:36.760 The question. 00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:46.760 I think I like what Antartic said, allow them everywhere, 00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:51.760 but set some specific limitations such as not front. 00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:52.760 Would you say fronting? 00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:54.760 Side and rear yard fences. 00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:56.760 Not facing the public right of way. 00:51:56.760 --> 00:52:00.239 Otherwise, anything on the side or the rear would be 00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:02.760 allowed as long as it's not facing. 00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:05.469 Unless you're on a corner and your side lot faces the 00:52:05.469 --> 00:52:06.760 public right of way. 00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:10.539 Did I hear too that the chain link fences are more 00:52:10.539 --> 00:52:11.760 expensive? 00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:12.760 No. 00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:14.760 Because I was going to dispute that. 00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:15.760 And they last longer. 00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:18.760 Okay, I just want to make sure I didn't misunderstand. 00:52:18.760 --> 00:52:20.760 Well, make sure they grow beautiful. 00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:21.760 They do. 00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:27.760 Well, I just, this is, this can be a big deal. 00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:30.809 There are a lot of people, the chain link folks were 00:52:30.809 --> 00:52:32.760 killing it 40 years ago. 00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:35.760 They're not, they're not so much anymore. 00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:38.760 And there's reasons for that aesthetically. 00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:41.840 And even in industrial areas, chain link fence is a very 00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:44.980 good way to keep your things secure without spending a lot 00:52:44.980 --> 00:52:45.760 of money. 00:52:45.760 --> 00:52:50.019 You see people being very creative with slats inside of 00:52:50.019 --> 00:52:54.090 chain link fencing that to make what was otherwise an 00:52:54.090 --> 00:52:57.760 opaque fence or a non-opaque fence opaque. 00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:00.760 It's like, well, then you get into more aesthetic issues. 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:04.760 So there have been challenges in a lot of communities. 00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:07.760 This is a good policy discussion. 00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:10.769 I think it's something that we would, we would have to 00:53:10.769 --> 00:53:13.760 highlight as a big change in the consolidated draft. 00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:18.110 If we were to either take this out or amend it, we'll just 00:53:18.110 --> 00:53:21.960 have to note that, hey, this is different than you're doing 00:53:21.960 --> 00:53:22.760 it now. 00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:27.280 Yeah, I'd be cautious about using the word opaque because 00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:30.760 wrought iron is, you can see through that. 00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:34.920 So, I mean, the only wrought iron on my yard is at the 00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:35.760 front. 00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:37.760 Everything else is eight foot wood. 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:39.760 So, yeah. 00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:43.760 I just think the wood fence is the breakdown of community. 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:44.760 Okay. 00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:47.760 I like it. 00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:50.949 Well, my neighbors got to get an eight foot tall fence and 00:53:50.949 --> 00:53:51.760 so, yeah. 00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:54.760 And I don't disagree, I don't disagree with that. 00:53:54.760 --> 00:54:00.019 And I hear and see both sides of this because again, when 00:54:00.019 --> 00:54:03.980 you look at chain link fences, often they catch Walmart 00:54:03.980 --> 00:54:04.760 bags. 00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:06.760 It did not maintain. 00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:09.760 And small children. 00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:14.760 Well, I think the governor took care of that one for us. 00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:20.550 So, maybe there's some middle ground there and we just 00:54:20.550 --> 00:54:23.760 continue to talk through this. 00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:32.300 Limiting or allowing the use in some application, which is 00:54:32.300 --> 00:54:34.760 an expanse of where we're at today. 00:54:34.760 --> 00:54:36.760 Right, right, just some sort of option. 00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:38.760 Maybe it's not in new subdivisions either. 00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:40.760 Maybe those are all still wood. 00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:44.139 But I'm just speaking from my district and hearing the out 00:54:44.139 --> 00:54:44.760 cries. 00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:48.550 And I mean, anytime somebody talks about a fence, it's just 00:54:48.550 --> 00:54:49.760 pile on pile on. 00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:53.760 Why can't we have a, you know, and mostly because we have, 00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:56.920 it's an older established neighborhood, you know, the 00:54:56.920 --> 00:54:57.760 people of Cremley. 00:54:57.760 --> 00:55:00.780 And we have the creek that runs through and people don't 00:55:00.780 --> 00:55:02.760 want to block their view of that. 00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:08.760 So, and I guess just for conversation sake. 00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:16.369 So, we say you must, you can't construct a chain link fence 00:55:16.369 --> 00:55:19.760 , but it doesn't preclude you from a picket fence. 00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:25.760 It doesn't preclude you from some sense of a board on board 00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:28.760 that you could have greater openings and shorter height. 00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:31.889 Meaning you could have a four foot instead of having a six 00:55:31.889 --> 00:55:33.760 foot or eight foot wood fence. 00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:35.760 So, you have a barrier. 00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:39.519 So, having a picket fence, it doesn't preclude you from 00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:41.760 putting wire on the face of it. 00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:48.860 This is specifically addressing a fence that is associated 00:55:48.860 --> 00:55:53.750 with, I think in today's standards, more industrial or 00:55:53.750 --> 00:55:55.760 something else. 00:55:55.760 --> 00:56:03.010 So, maybe part of this is offering up a couple more words 00:56:03.010 --> 00:56:04.760 to say picket. 00:56:04.760 --> 00:56:08.480 So, people can think in terms of different types of fencing 00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:08.760 . 00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:09.760 I don't know. 00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:13.119 I don't know that that addresses, you know, part of the 00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:15.760 need rather than promoting something. 00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:19.199 And then the second part to that is, is if there's an 00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:22.650 existing chain link, I don't know why a person couldn't put 00:56:22.650 --> 00:56:23.760 a chain link back. 00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:47.760 [ Inaudible ] 00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:51.760 Is it below 36 inches is considered just decoration or I 00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:55.760 can't remember, it was 36 or 30 inches I think. 00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:57.760 It's not considered a fence. 00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:00.760 Yeah, you're thinking of the national norms. 00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:05.420 So, and again, we're trying to go down those roads more 00:57:05.420 --> 00:57:06.760 frequently. 00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:08.760 And again, maybe that's one of those pieces. 00:57:08.760 --> 00:57:11.760 Where it isn't, it's an honor system. 00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:15.150 A person under 200 square foot on an accessory building is 00:57:15.150 --> 00:57:17.760 not required to get or 125 square feet. 00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:20.760 120. 00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:24.760 And again, so here it is. 00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:28.900 And I will tell you that number is about a decade old, but 00:57:28.900 --> 00:57:30.760 we continue to do that as a local amendment. 00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:32.980 Well, why would we do that when we know people are living 00:57:32.980 --> 00:57:33.760 differently? 00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:38.130 But with that being said, if I build a 100 square foot shed 00:57:38.130 --> 00:57:41.760 , I don't have to get a building permit to do that. 00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:44.760 However, I still have to follow all the rules. 00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:47.760 So a fence should be no different. 00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:51.190 And the reason that you permit a fence greater than 6 feet 00:57:51.190 --> 00:57:53.760 height is because you have wind factors. 00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:55.760 So you have concerns for where it's going. 00:57:55.760 --> 00:58:00.320 Too many times what we do in having a fence permit is that 00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:03.760 we get into these neighbor squabbles. 00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.760 We get into these, this is on my property line. 00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:09.480 And again, I don't know that we really need to be in the 00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:12.349 business of doing that because there's not a health, life 00:58:12.349 --> 00:58:13.760 safety issue. 00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:19.010 The aesthetics to me, editorial, the aesthetics of putting 00:58:19.010 --> 00:58:21.349 the posts on the outside of the fence versus the inside of 00:58:21.349 --> 00:58:21.760 the fence. 00:58:21.760 --> 00:58:24.519 I think the aesthetic issue is really that chain link fence 00:58:24.519 --> 00:58:24.760 . 00:58:24.760 --> 00:58:28.059 So if we prohibit a chain link fence and somebody builds a 00:58:28.059 --> 00:58:32.099 wooden fence adjacent to me and I get the ugly posts, it's 00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:35.760 still a very nice fence and I didn't pay for it. 00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:38.760 I mean, we have a tendency of getting hung up on that. 00:58:38.760 --> 00:58:43.989 If it's fronting a right of way, I agree that aesthetically 00:58:43.989 --> 00:58:47.760 we should have the best side facing out. 00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:52.909 When I built my shed, it was 9 foot 11 inches by 11 foot 11 00:58:52.909 --> 00:58:53.760 inches. 00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:56.760 It went in shorter than 120 square feet in both directions. 00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:58.760 That caused a lot of work. 00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:03.760 I want to go out there. 00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:08.760 I want to go out there because he put trim boards on. 00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:11.760 It's almost the time, chef. 00:59:11.760 --> 00:59:17.760 I've since sold that house. 00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:22.099 >> Does that help address that, do you think, if we provide 00:59:22.099 --> 00:59:23.760 more descriptive? 00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:25.760 >> I just think the conversation should be had. 00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:31.760 I hear it quite a bit, especially from my district. 00:59:31.760 --> 00:59:34.340 >> So talking through this, I mean, because we're kind of 00:59:34.340 --> 00:59:39.960 here, is there some recommendations that we kind of want to 00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:41.519 move forward with, not saying we're going to make a 00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:44.550 decision here today and then we can come back and visit 00:59:44.550 --> 00:59:45.760 when we get into the details on this. 00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:49.219 But just kind of give me a frame of reference on where we 00:59:49.219 --> 00:59:50.760 should go with this. 00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:54.760 >> You want to go with allowing it as an option, right? 00:59:54.760 --> 00:59:58.570 >> As an option, maybe with permission from the neighbors 00:59:58.570 --> 01:00:02.760 or maybe with the front facing wood, you know, screening. 01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:06.559 >> Certainly the new subdivision, HLA is going to prohibit 01:00:06.559 --> 01:00:09.760 and take that right out of the new development. 01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:11.760 >> But a lot of them don't have HLA's. 01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:13.760 >> No, a lot of the new development does. 01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:19.429 >> I would recommend not doing the ask your neighbors first 01:00:19.429 --> 01:00:20.760 approach. 01:00:20.760 --> 01:00:25.440 Just because, yeah, maybe you're an ex-husband, but you're 01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:29.760 still a neighbor, they're going to say no every time. 01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:31.760 Or you're going to say no every time. 01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:35.619 We don't want other squabbles getting in the middle of the 01:00:35.619 --> 01:00:36.760 fence issue. 01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:40.519 >> Perhaps what we can do is almost create what I'm 01:00:40.519 --> 01:00:43.760 thinking like a policy document overall. 01:00:43.760 --> 01:00:48.780 And so have this item on that document and then we can 01:00:48.780 --> 01:00:52.949 prepare sort of a pros and cons and bring that back and 01:00:52.949 --> 01:00:56.110 then as we move forward, I'm guessing we're going to have 01:00:56.110 --> 01:00:57.760 quite a bit of these items. 01:00:57.760 --> 01:00:59.760 >> Yeah, when we get to -- it's probably a good approach. 01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:00.760 >> We should have pictures too. 01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:03.730 >> Yeah, when we get to this -- because we're going to go 01:01:03.730 --> 01:01:07.000 sub-chapter by sub-chapter through all this material in the 01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:07.760 same way. 01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:10.159 Then when we get to that, we'll have some maybe 01:01:10.159 --> 01:01:11.760 recommendations or ideas. 01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:15.059 >> Can you add a question to the public comment just to see 01:01:15.059 --> 01:01:17.760 what people think while you're out there? 01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:18.760 >> Where's the name? 01:01:18.760 --> 01:01:20.760 >> Well, no, I mean just in your -- 01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:22.760 >> Yes. 01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:23.760 >> Add it to the comments. 01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:24.760 >> Yes. 01:01:24.760 --> 01:01:28.760 We can ask that question in the public meetings. 01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:31.760 >> Okay. 01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:32.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:33.760 >> Okay. 01:01:33.760 --> 01:01:34.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:35.760 >> Okay. 01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:36.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:37.760 >> Okay. 01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:38.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:39.760 >> Okay. 01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:40.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:40.760 --> 01:01:41.760 >> Okay. 01:01:41.760 --> 01:01:42.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:43.760 >> Okay. 01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:44.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:45.760 >> Okay. 01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:46.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:46.760 --> 01:01:47.760 >> Okay. 01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:48.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:48.760 --> 01:01:49.760 >> Okay. 01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:50.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:51.760 >> Okay. 01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:52.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:52.760 --> 01:01:53.760 >> Okay. 01:01:53.760 --> 01:01:54.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:54.760 --> 01:01:55.760 >> Okay. 01:01:55.760 --> 01:01:56.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:56.760 --> 01:01:57.760 >> Okay. 01:01:57.760 --> 01:01:58.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:01:58.760 --> 01:01:59.760 >> Okay. 01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:00.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:01.760 >> Okay. 01:02:01.760 --> 01:02:02.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:02.760 --> 01:02:03.760 >> Okay. 01:02:03.760 --> 01:02:04.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:04.760 --> 01:02:05.760 >> Okay. 01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:06.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:07.760 >> Okay. 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:08.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:09.760 >> Okay. 01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:10.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:10.760 --> 01:02:11.760 >> Okay. 01:02:11.760 --> 01:02:12.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:12.760 --> 01:02:13.760 >> Okay. 01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:14.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:15.760 >> Okay. 01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:16.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:16.760 --> 01:02:17.760 >> Okay. 01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:18.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:18.760 --> 01:02:19.760 >> Okay. 01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:20.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:21.760 >> Okay. 01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:22.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:22.760 --> 01:02:23.760 >> Okay. 01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:24.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:25.760 >> Okay. 01:02:25.760 --> 01:02:26.760 >> And then we can ask questions. 01:02:28.760 --> 01:02:30.469 >> That was the question I get asked and I don't have an 01:02:30.469 --> 01:02:31.760 answer for it. 01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:35.750 We're just a really unique community and I think allowing 01:02:35.750 --> 01:02:37.760 our homeowners to have that 01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:40.760 choice is valuable. 01:02:40.760 --> 01:02:44.909 >> I think as we get rid of it, after we get some feedback 01:02:44.909 --> 01:02:47.260 from the public, I think this 01:02:47.260 --> 01:02:49.840 may be an item, fencing may be an item that should be a 01:02:49.840 --> 01:02:51.760 work session for the full council. 01:02:51.760 --> 01:02:54.760 Just so that it doesn't come to them. 01:02:54.760 --> 01:02:58.199 You might have some members of council that say absolutely 01:02:58.199 --> 01:02:59.760 no on chain link so that it 01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:00.760 doesn't get to them. 01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:04.820 >> And it would be, so when we come back and present to 01:03:04.820 --> 01:03:07.760 each of those, when staff presents, 01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:08.760 that's what it would be. 01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:11.760 So subchapter six, this is what we talked about today. 01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:12.760 We got hung up on fencing. 01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:15.760 We didn't know what to do, what was the policy direction. 01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:16.760 Here's the items. 01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:20.900 >> Maybe if anyone could figure out how we got to that 01:03:20.900 --> 01:03:21.760 point. 01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:25.000 >> We have that back history of what was the catalyst for 01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:26.760 the reason we did that in the 01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:27.760 first place. 01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:28.760 >> That's a question I get. 01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:29.760 Why can't I do this? 01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:30.760 >> Because. 01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:31.760 >> It's the beauty of my job. 01:03:31.760 --> 01:03:32.760 >> Because I said so. 01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:33.760 I can't play mom. 01:03:33.760 --> 01:03:34.760 I can't do that. 01:03:34.760 --> 01:03:35.760 >> That's great history. 01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:36.760 It's not a good reason to have it in the code. 01:03:36.760 --> 01:03:37.309 >> Some of these issues, researching some of the recent 01:03:37.309 --> 01:03:37.760 amendments that we brought forward, 01:03:37.760 --> 01:03:49.219 researching it, some of them were intended to be these 01:03:49.219 --> 01:03:56.760 quick fixes until there's an update. 01:03:56.760 --> 01:04:05.800 So these big fixes that were done on a temporary basis five 01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:11.760 , six years ago or longer, actually 01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:12.760 become the norm. 01:04:12.760 --> 01:04:13.760 Everyone forgot that it was supposed to be temporary. 01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:14.760 >> That's the important part of this committee. 01:04:14.760 --> 01:04:17.940 That's why it is that Clarion did this work once and we 01:04:17.940 --> 01:04:19.760 sent them back and said start 01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:21.909 over, not that they did anything wrong, they just 01:04:21.909 --> 01:04:23.760 replicated what we had instead of saying 01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:27.590 what's really best practice and what are progressive 01:04:27.590 --> 01:04:31.760 communities doing and how do we do it better? 01:04:31.760 --> 01:04:35.860 And this is a great point because it's how I'm most 01:04:35.860 --> 01:04:38.760 effective in my job is just why. 01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:39.760 >> Okay. 01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:40.760 >> I don't have an answer. 01:04:40.760 --> 01:04:43.010 >> In terms of process, you brought up the point about 01:04:43.010 --> 01:04:44.320 bringing this back to the whole 01:04:44.320 --> 01:04:46.760 council for policy discussion. 01:04:46.760 --> 01:04:50.050 >> Yeah, just the subject of just a work session on fencing 01:04:50.050 --> 01:04:50.360 . 01:04:50.360 --> 01:04:52.360 >> So you can do that. 01:04:52.360 --> 01:04:55.380 I will also just as a reminder, when all of this 01:04:55.380 --> 01:04:58.239 information gets put into a consolidated 01:04:58.239 --> 01:05:02.340 draft, we're going to flag those things because they're big 01:05:02.340 --> 01:05:03.239 changes. 01:05:03.239 --> 01:05:06.030 In the footnote on this page, if we change the way it's 01:05:06.030 --> 01:05:08.039 currently drafted for chain link, 01:05:08.039 --> 01:05:12.699 we'll say policy discussion item or discussion item and you 01:05:12.699 --> 01:05:14.880 can flag those and the staff 01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:18.809 report can reference those and kind of call more attention 01:05:18.809 --> 01:05:20.679 to these things that we all 01:05:20.679 --> 01:05:23.679 talked about in this room with you all. 01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:24.679 Okay. 01:05:24.679 --> 01:05:27.960 Well, I'm glad we got to fences. 01:05:27.960 --> 01:05:29.960 I almost skipped right over it. 01:05:29.960 --> 01:05:33.769 >> You have no idea the kind of comments and questions I 01:05:33.769 --> 01:05:34.960 get about it. 01:05:34.960 --> 01:05:39.960 So I was like last night, today I'm not letting it go. 01:05:39.960 --> 01:05:40.960 >> I'm happy. 01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:41.960 >> The conversation. 01:05:41.960 --> 01:05:42.960 >> No, it's great. 01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:43.960 It really needs to happen. 01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:44.960 It's no different for me. 01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:47.349 There's just a lot of these things that there are these 01:05:47.349 --> 01:05:47.960 nuances. 01:05:47.960 --> 01:05:49.960 Well, for me, it's daily. 01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:50.960 It's absolutely daily. 01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:51.960 I question it. 01:05:51.960 --> 01:05:55.219 And so I'm asking myself why and then I just have to stop 01:05:55.219 --> 01:05:56.960 asking why because I can't get 01:05:56.960 --> 01:05:59.960 anything done. 01:05:59.960 --> 01:06:00.960 >> Just change it. 01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:05.559 >> So we go out and so shouldn't be going down this road, 01:06:05.559 --> 01:06:07.960 but we go out, perform, we 01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:13.460 send building inspectors to inspect fences to make sure the 01:06:13.460 --> 01:06:15.960 posts are on the inside. 01:06:15.960 --> 01:06:18.960 To me, what a waste of a resource. 01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:19.960 So I've stopped that. 01:06:19.960 --> 01:06:20.960 I've stopped it. 01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:21.960 And I said we're not going to do that. 01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:22.960 We're going to do the health welfare inspections. 01:06:22.960 --> 01:06:23.760 We're going to spend more time on the things that actually 01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:23.960 matter. 01:06:23.960 --> 01:06:24.639 If we get a complaint, then we can address the fence posts 01:06:24.639 --> 01:06:24.960 on the wrong side. 01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:25.550 You make sure when we issue the permit that it's very clear 01:06:25.550 --> 01:06:25.960 that this is the way you build 01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:26.960 a fence according to our regulations. 01:06:26.960 --> 01:06:27.730 Their failure to do that means they have to redo their 01:06:27.730 --> 01:06:27.960 fence. 01:06:27.960 --> 01:06:28.960 I can't help them. 01:06:28.960 --> 01:06:29.500 >> It's so funny you bring that up because across the 01:06:29.500 --> 01:06:29.960 street, there's a lot of people 01:06:29.960 --> 01:06:30.960 who are going to be like, oh, I'm going to build a fence. 01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:31.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:06:31.960 --> 01:06:32.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:33.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:34.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:06:34.960 --> 01:06:49.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:06:49.960 --> 01:07:04.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:20.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:35.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:07:35.960 --> 01:07:51.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:07:51.960 --> 01:08:06.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:21.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:22.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:22.960 --> 01:08:23.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:24.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:24.960 --> 01:08:25.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:25.960 --> 01:08:26.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:26.960 --> 01:08:27.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:28.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:28.960 --> 01:08:29.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:29.960 --> 01:08:30.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:31.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:31.960 --> 01:08:32.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:32.960 --> 01:08:33.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:34.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:34.960 --> 01:08:35.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:35.960 --> 01:08:36.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:37.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:37.960 --> 01:08:38.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:39.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:39.960 --> 01:08:40.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:41.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:41.960 --> 01:08:42.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:43.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:43.960 --> 01:08:44.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:45.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:46.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:46.960 --> 01:08:47.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:47.960 --> 01:08:48.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:48.960 --> 01:08:49.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:49.960 --> 01:08:50.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:51.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:51.960 --> 01:08:52.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:52.960 --> 01:08:53.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:53.960 --> 01:08:54.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:55.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:55.960 --> 01:08:56.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:08:56.960 --> 01:08:57.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:07.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:07.960 --> 01:09:08.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:08.960 --> 01:09:09.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:09.960 --> 01:09:10.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:11.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:11.960 --> 01:09:12.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:12.960 --> 01:09:13.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:13.960 --> 01:09:14.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:14.960 --> 01:09:15.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:16.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:17.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:18.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:19.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:19.960 --> 01:09:20.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:20.960 --> 01:09:21.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:21.960 --> 01:09:22.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:22.960 --> 01:09:23.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:24.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:25.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:25.960 --> 01:09:26.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:27.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:27.960 --> 01:09:28.960 I'm going to build a fence. 01:09:35.960 --> 01:09:38.960 However, it is, was one piece. 01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:42.960 But no, we shouldn't be in the business of neighbor 01:09:42.960 --> 01:09:43.960 disputes. 01:09:43.960 --> 01:09:48.960 Because it goes to the fact that the paint's flaking. 01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:49.960 Painted both sides of the fence. 01:09:49.960 --> 01:09:52.960 I can't get on your property to maintain that side or put 01:09:52.960 --> 01:09:52.960 new stain. 01:09:52.960 --> 01:09:56.920 So all of a sudden now we're going to squabble on who owns 01:09:56.920 --> 01:09:57.960 the fence. 01:09:57.960 --> 01:09:58.960 Both neighbors are new. 01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:00.960 Nobody knows who built the fence. 01:10:00.960 --> 01:10:02.960 Just duel. 01:10:02.960 --> 01:10:05.960 Take out gloves and slap over the top of the fence. 01:10:05.960 --> 01:10:06.960 Burgers. 01:10:06.960 --> 01:10:07.960 Burgers. 01:10:07.960 --> 01:10:08.960 It's right on the property line. 01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:11.960 It's common usage. 01:10:11.960 --> 01:10:14.960 It serves a common purpose. 01:10:14.960 --> 01:10:18.529 It doesn't seem out of, you know, if it's starting to 01:10:18.529 --> 01:10:19.960 violate city code as far as appearance 01:10:19.960 --> 01:10:22.960 and everything like that, it does need to be repaired. 01:10:22.960 --> 01:10:26.479 And just to offset the cost for one person to pay for it 01:10:26.479 --> 01:10:27.960 while the other one benefits 01:10:27.960 --> 01:10:28.960 from it completely. 01:10:28.960 --> 01:10:30.960 That's the only reason I bring that up. 01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:32.869 If I want to build a fence on my property, you live next 01:10:32.869 --> 01:10:33.960 door to me, you didn't want 01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:36.960 a fence, I'm going to ask you to pay for half. 01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:37.960 No, no, no, no. 01:10:37.960 --> 01:10:38.960 I'm not talking about that. 01:10:38.960 --> 01:10:39.960 Well, it's sort of the same though. 01:10:39.960 --> 01:10:41.960 Well, then maybe we need to distinguish. 01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:45.500 Yeah, once a fence is up, like in new developments, right 01:10:45.500 --> 01:10:47.960 now I share a back fence where I've 01:10:47.960 --> 01:10:48.960 got the post on my side. 01:10:48.960 --> 01:10:53.060 But the way the property is, he just sees the backside of 01:10:53.060 --> 01:10:54.960 my fence with no post. 01:10:54.960 --> 01:10:57.960 So, but he benefits from that. 01:10:57.960 --> 01:11:00.970 So when that fence starts to deteriorate, I'm totally 01:11:00.970 --> 01:11:01.960 responsible. 01:11:01.960 --> 01:11:02.960 Yep. 01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:09.960 So yeah, I have a fence right now on my side. 01:11:09.960 --> 01:11:13.619 It's covered, I just grew this beautiful Boston Ivy right 01:11:13.619 --> 01:11:14.960 all over my fence. 01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:17.779 My neighbor told me yesterday that fence is all coming down 01:11:17.779 --> 01:11:18.960 and they're putting up an 01:11:18.960 --> 01:11:20.960 eight foot fence on that one side of my driveway. 01:11:20.960 --> 01:11:22.960 I'm like, my Ivy, it's beautiful. 01:11:22.960 --> 01:11:24.960 It's covered the whole fence. 01:11:24.960 --> 01:11:27.960 It's just now got to where the leaves are giant. 01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:31.409 Well, we should move to the Boston Ivy protection standards 01:11:31.409 --> 01:11:31.960 then. 01:11:31.960 --> 01:11:32.960 Yeah. 01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:35.960 Which are next. 01:11:35.960 --> 01:11:37.960 There's some creative ways of doing that. 01:11:37.960 --> 01:11:39.850 You just drop some posts on your side, on your side of the 01:11:39.850 --> 01:11:40.960 fence, just push that fence 01:11:40.960 --> 01:11:42.960 a couple inches and you keep the fence. 01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:44.960 Yeah, see a lot of that too. 01:11:44.960 --> 01:11:45.960 Gaps between two fences. 01:11:45.960 --> 01:11:48.960 I'll just save the Ivy and we'll start all over again. 01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:49.960 Okay. 01:11:49.960 --> 01:12:18.960 [inaudible] 01:12:18.960 --> 01:12:21.890 I like that public view thing because I don't like that 01:12:21.890 --> 01:12:22.960 language here. 01:12:22.960 --> 01:12:23.960 That scares me. 01:12:23.960 --> 01:12:24.960 Yeah. 01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:29.960 If I'm on the Acropolis, I can see more than somebody else. 01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:31.960 Okay. 01:12:31.960 --> 01:12:36.960 Parking. 01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:41.960 We got time for this. 01:12:41.960 --> 01:12:46.960 That was the punchline today, parking. 01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:50.960 Okay, so changes to parking as well. 01:12:50.960 --> 01:12:52.960 A new parking table. 01:12:52.960 --> 01:12:56.640 And if you were to look in your document, we start that 01:12:56.640 --> 01:12:58.960 table on page 88 and then it 01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:01.960 rolls on for a few pages here. 01:13:01.960 --> 01:13:05.960 The way you regulate parking today is highly unusual. 01:13:05.960 --> 01:13:10.029 I'm creating a running list of ways that Denton is not like 01:13:10.029 --> 01:13:10.960 the norm. 01:13:10.960 --> 01:13:12.960 This is one of them. 01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:15.729 You're required to have this exact number of parking spaces 01:13:15.729 --> 01:13:15.960 . 01:13:15.960 --> 01:13:17.960 That is not flexible. 01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:20.359 So what we've done, we've matched the use table that you 01:13:20.359 --> 01:13:20.960 saw with the zoning districts 01:13:20.960 --> 01:13:23.960 proposed last summer. 01:13:23.960 --> 01:13:27.750 Each one of those uses has a corresponding parking 01:13:27.750 --> 01:13:29.960 requirement, a minimum parking 01:13:29.960 --> 01:13:30.960 requirement. 01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:35.260 Instead of having the maximum also be that minimum like you 01:13:35.260 --> 01:13:36.960 do now, we have set a 01:13:36.960 --> 01:13:42.960 parking maximum at 125% of the minimum parking requirement. 01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:45.960 So there's no minimum. 01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:47.960 There is a minimum. 01:13:47.960 --> 01:13:48.960 You have to hit the minimum. 01:13:48.960 --> 01:13:53.470 If you're required to have 100 parking spaces, you need at 01:13:53.470 --> 01:13:54.960 least 100. 01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:59.960 But you can't provide more than 125 if 100 is your minimum. 01:13:59.960 --> 01:14:00.960 Okay. 01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:03.279 And this is going to go across the board with residential, 01:14:03.279 --> 01:14:03.960 industrial? 01:14:03.960 --> 01:14:04.960 Across the board. 01:14:04.960 --> 01:14:05.960 Okay. 01:14:05.960 --> 01:14:06.960 That's where I have a problem. 01:14:06.960 --> 01:14:08.960 I think a lot of people do. 01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:12.560 When we start getting into these shopping mall areas where 01:14:12.560 --> 01:14:14.960 you have this minimum requirement, 01:14:14.960 --> 01:14:19.260 the fact that half of that territory is probably never used 01:14:19.260 --> 01:14:20.960 except maybe on major holidays, 01:14:20.960 --> 01:14:23.960 maybe, that's a lot of wasted space. 01:14:23.960 --> 01:14:26.960 That's a lot of wasted space for green space. 01:14:26.960 --> 01:14:32.199 So I'm hoping that we can have or eliminate the minimum 01:14:32.199 --> 01:14:35.960 requirement in commercial areas. 01:14:35.960 --> 01:14:39.020 Let the developer best decide for them because I think a 01:14:39.020 --> 01:14:40.960 lot of developers would agree. 01:14:40.960 --> 01:14:44.420 They're required to put in too much parking space that they 01:14:44.420 --> 01:14:45.960 don't use and that costs them 01:14:45.960 --> 01:14:47.960 money and that gets passed on. 01:14:47.960 --> 01:14:49.960 So I'd like to open that conversation up. 01:14:49.960 --> 01:14:52.960 I'll disagree if you don't mind. 01:14:52.960 --> 01:14:57.890 I will tell you my first restaurant experience in Denton 01:14:57.890 --> 01:15:01.960 since I was employed, I met a developer 01:15:01.960 --> 01:15:04.960 at Nero Bread. 01:15:04.960 --> 01:15:05.960 Over? 01:15:05.960 --> 01:15:07.960 I was on University. 01:15:07.960 --> 01:15:08.960 Okay. 01:15:08.960 --> 01:15:14.869 I was there at 1130, 1125 and I couldn't park in their 01:15:14.869 --> 01:15:17.960 parking lot so I had to go use an 01:15:17.960 --> 01:15:20.960 adjacent parking lot to park there. 01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:25.279 I will argue our minimums are probably not where they need 01:15:25.279 --> 01:15:25.960 to be. 01:15:25.960 --> 01:15:31.109 We have minimums that go back decades as far as how I see 01:15:31.109 --> 01:15:31.960 them. 01:15:31.960 --> 01:15:36.670 When we think in terms of people used to have 1.5 cars per 01:15:36.670 --> 01:15:38.960 household, it's now really three 01:15:38.960 --> 01:15:42.960 cars per household if you have at least a kid or two kids. 01:15:42.960 --> 01:15:46.720 So we have more people driving, more people working and 01:15:46.720 --> 01:15:48.960 more people meeting at whatever 01:15:48.960 --> 01:15:49.960 establishments. 01:15:49.960 --> 01:15:54.489 So the business owners or the developers or the builders 01:15:54.489 --> 01:15:56.960 will build to a minimum or less 01:15:56.960 --> 01:16:00.680 than a minimum parking if allowed, which is a safety hazard 01:16:00.680 --> 01:16:00.960 . 01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:04.909 It is problematic and people park on other people's 01:16:04.909 --> 01:16:07.960 property, which kind of these domino 01:16:07.960 --> 01:16:08.960 effects on parking. 01:16:08.960 --> 01:16:12.250 I understand when you say large shopping centers that these 01:16:12.250 --> 01:16:13.960 parking areas appear to be too 01:16:13.960 --> 01:16:17.180 large and many times we look at like the mall, there's a 01:16:17.180 --> 01:16:18.960 two or three week window when that 01:16:18.960 --> 01:16:22.960 parking lot is full, but beyond that it is not. 01:16:22.960 --> 01:16:26.689 I just want to rethink parking and where it is you're 01:16:26.689 --> 01:16:29.960 saying green space, I want to augment 01:16:29.960 --> 01:16:31.529 the parking lot and create more green space within the 01:16:31.529 --> 01:16:31.960 parking. 01:16:31.960 --> 01:16:33.960 I don't care how much parking they have. 01:16:33.960 --> 01:16:36.960 They're going to put the responsible amount of parking. 01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:39.739 We're going to ensure that they have a responsible amount 01:16:39.739 --> 01:16:41.960 of parking based on how it is used 01:16:41.960 --> 01:16:43.960 in the use of the building. 01:16:43.960 --> 01:16:47.680 But I think that we also have an opportunity to create a 01:16:47.680 --> 01:16:49.960 place that we have greater tree 01:16:49.960 --> 01:16:50.960 canopy. 01:16:50.960 --> 01:16:52.960 We reduce heat. 01:16:52.960 --> 01:16:57.960 We help the ecological system. 01:16:57.960 --> 01:16:59.960 We have a place for water to drain. 01:16:59.960 --> 01:17:02.960 So again, getting into the curb cuts. 01:17:02.960 --> 01:17:07.470 All of the things that we can do to try to help mitigate a 01:17:07.470 --> 01:17:09.960 larger parking lot by virtue 01:17:09.960 --> 01:17:13.420 of the concrete creating problem, but also serving what our 01:17:13.420 --> 01:17:14.960 public safety folks need, 01:17:14.960 --> 01:17:18.180 which is we need to have ample room and we can't have cars 01:17:18.180 --> 01:17:19.960 parked on top of each other. 01:17:19.960 --> 01:17:23.960 So that's my concern with eliminating a minimum. 01:17:23.960 --> 01:17:27.060 I don't even think our minimum is accurate today in many 01:17:27.060 --> 01:17:27.960 instances. 01:17:27.960 --> 01:17:30.960 We reduced it though. 01:17:30.960 --> 01:17:34.960 So that's inconsistent with what you just said. 01:17:34.960 --> 01:17:39.460 So you currently require more parking for minimum retail 01:17:39.460 --> 01:17:41.960 standards than we proposed. 01:17:41.960 --> 01:17:47.029 We went from basically a one per 300 square feet to one per 01:17:47.029 --> 01:17:49.960 350 square feet is what's been 01:17:49.960 --> 01:17:50.960 proposed in the draft. 01:17:50.960 --> 01:17:55.640 Still setting a maximum at 125% of that, giving the market 01:17:55.640 --> 01:17:57.960 a little bit of flexibility. 01:17:57.960 --> 01:18:02.960 This is an ongoing debate because parking is not a science. 01:18:02.960 --> 01:18:05.960 It's one that is constantly evolving. 01:18:05.960 --> 01:18:10.479 A lot of lenders out there won't even give you the bill 01:18:10.479 --> 01:18:13.960 until they see that you have enough parking. 01:18:13.960 --> 01:18:18.409 Well, and I think each developer, especially if they've 01:18:18.409 --> 01:18:19.960 done a lot of this, they're going 01:18:19.960 --> 01:18:20.960 to know what it's going to take. 01:18:20.960 --> 01:18:23.960 I'm not saying, you know, it's verboten. 01:18:23.960 --> 01:18:26.180 I'm just saying take it away and let the developer make 01:18:26.180 --> 01:18:26.960 that decision. 01:18:26.960 --> 01:18:27.960 Here's the other. 01:18:27.960 --> 01:18:30.960 There are several communities that have this, Scott. 01:18:30.960 --> 01:18:33.560 Fort Smith, Arkansas is the one that comes to mind because 01:18:33.560 --> 01:18:34.960 it's one of the first ones. 01:18:34.960 --> 01:18:37.260 But there are several communities around the country that 01:18:37.260 --> 01:18:39.960 have eliminated their minimum parking requirements. 01:18:39.960 --> 01:18:43.960 And it's benefited them in ways that developers appreciate. 01:18:43.960 --> 01:18:47.340 But it discourages, and I know this is going to sound 01:18:47.340 --> 01:18:48.960 selfish and I don't mean it to be, 01:18:48.960 --> 01:18:50.960 but it will discourage the use of cars. 01:18:50.960 --> 01:18:53.239 You know you're probably going to have a hard time finding 01:18:53.239 --> 01:18:55.619 a parking place, and it's only six blocks down the road 01:18:55.619 --> 01:18:55.960 anyway, 01:18:55.960 --> 01:18:58.340 and it encourages people to walk, use their bikes, things 01:18:58.340 --> 01:18:58.960 like that. 01:18:58.960 --> 01:19:00.960 So that's part of the purpose behind that. 01:19:00.960 --> 01:19:04.159 I know that's not going to be a match in every case, and 01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:05.960 that's why we need to look at this. 01:19:05.960 --> 01:19:08.350 But just simply by taking away the minimum parking 01:19:08.350 --> 01:19:12.449 requirement for big commercial enterprises opens the door 01:19:12.449 --> 01:19:12.960 for them to say, 01:19:12.960 --> 01:19:14.960 well, you know, I really do need these. 01:19:14.960 --> 01:19:17.770 And I see a lot of these people coming in asking us for 01:19:17.770 --> 01:19:21.390 more than we allow to, and we do this alternate development 01:19:21.390 --> 01:19:21.960 plan for them. 01:19:21.960 --> 01:19:25.829 But there may be areas where the developers are asked to 01:19:25.829 --> 01:19:27.960 put in so many parking places, 01:19:27.960 --> 01:19:31.770 and they know that it's not going to benefit them that much 01:19:31.770 --> 01:19:33.960 except on special occasions. 01:19:33.960 --> 01:19:35.960 So just I don't disagree with your argument. 01:19:35.960 --> 01:19:38.960 It is. Those elements are there and it sounds. 01:19:38.960 --> 01:19:41.340 But I think there's other aspects to it that we're over 01:19:41.340 --> 01:19:41.960 looking. 01:19:41.960 --> 01:19:45.960 I just think it's a conversation I'd like to see open up. 01:19:45.960 --> 01:19:50.229 I proposed this about a year and a half ago when Manal Dad 01:19:50.229 --> 01:19:51.960 was here, 01:19:51.960 --> 01:19:55.420 and she liked it, and I think the staff liked it at that 01:19:55.420 --> 01:19:56.960 time, and then all of a sudden, 01:19:56.960 --> 01:20:00.960 well, it got shelved for some reason. I have no idea why. 01:20:00.960 --> 01:20:04.750 But it's something I'd still like to pursue and at least 01:20:04.750 --> 01:20:07.960 get back out there in the open and have definitive reasons 01:20:07.960 --> 01:20:10.960 either why we shouldn't have it or why we can't. 01:20:10.960 --> 01:20:16.729 I know the planning director for Portsmouth, so I'll visit 01:20:16.729 --> 01:20:17.960 with Paul Bailey. 01:20:17.960 --> 01:20:23.859 Richard, didn't we increase -- I think in some of those 01:20:23.859 --> 01:20:27.960 uses, those numbers were skewed. 01:20:27.960 --> 01:20:34.960 The office was pretty low. 01:20:34.960 --> 01:20:38.970 And I guess another piece to add to this, and we haven't 01:20:38.970 --> 01:20:41.960 had this conversation, is a parking bank, 01:20:41.960 --> 01:20:45.399 is creating a parking bank, and especially as we look at 01:20:45.399 --> 01:20:49.340 downtown in some of these mixed use developments of how it 01:20:49.340 --> 01:20:50.960 is that we can look at parking 01:20:50.960 --> 01:20:54.239 because we have different hours of operation for different 01:20:54.239 --> 01:20:58.960 businesses and how it is that we can allow less parking. 01:20:58.960 --> 01:21:03.710 And maybe that's the provision in this is if someone builds 01:21:03.710 --> 01:21:07.289 a strip mall, what do we require the parking to be in that 01:21:07.289 --> 01:21:07.960 strip mall? 01:21:07.960 --> 01:21:10.430 So we don't know what the uses are going to be. If every 01:21:10.430 --> 01:21:13.680 one of those were going to be a restaurant, we wouldn't 01:21:13.680 --> 01:21:16.239 have enough parking compared to if they were all going to 01:21:16.239 --> 01:21:16.960 be chiropractors. 01:21:16.960 --> 01:21:20.630 I mean, so again, we have to try to manage really the life 01:21:20.630 --> 01:21:21.960 of the building. 01:21:21.960 --> 01:21:25.649 So for the next hundred years, do we know how the building 01:21:25.649 --> 01:21:28.960 is going to be used and where that's going to go? So it 01:21:28.960 --> 01:21:28.960 really is a challenge. 01:21:28.960 --> 01:21:31.979 Yeah, one of the biggest struggles is what happens with a 01:21:31.979 --> 01:21:32.960 change of use. 01:21:32.960 --> 01:21:36.829 And many staffs don't have the opportunity to even open up 01:21:36.829 --> 01:21:39.960 the door for conversation about parking. 01:21:39.960 --> 01:21:43.609 Well, you're just changing a tenant space. We're not going 01:21:43.609 --> 01:21:45.960 to revisit your parking lot. That's a done deal. 01:21:45.960 --> 01:21:48.899 Well, in some cases, I think you might need that 01:21:48.899 --> 01:21:49.960 opportunity. 01:21:49.960 --> 01:21:53.039 And again, it would depend upon the location. I'm thinking 01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:56.350 in terms of development, commercial development that's in 01:21:56.350 --> 01:21:59.229 close proximity to a residential area where people could 01:21:59.229 --> 01:21:59.960 walk to. 01:21:59.960 --> 01:22:03.100 And it also the main road is where public transportation 01:22:03.100 --> 01:22:03.960 can be used. 01:22:03.960 --> 01:22:06.840 So that option is open where people suspect, well, I that 01:22:06.840 --> 01:22:09.670 place is usually I have a hard time finding a parking place 01:22:09.670 --> 01:22:09.960 . 01:22:09.960 --> 01:22:12.500 I can either walk or I can take the bus or something like 01:22:12.500 --> 01:22:12.960 that. 01:22:12.960 --> 01:22:16.109 So you would look at it from that perspective to where it's 01:22:16.109 --> 01:22:19.270 out there on five thirty five away from everything or even 01:22:19.270 --> 01:22:20.960 public transportation. 01:22:20.960 --> 01:22:24.960 And then, yeah, what that let's talk about. 01:22:24.960 --> 01:22:27.960 Let's talk about that because all of these. Yeah. 01:22:27.960 --> 01:22:32.960 Some of we let we allowed for that. Yeah. 01:22:32.960 --> 01:22:34.960 Yeah, there is. There is some. 01:22:34.960 --> 01:22:39.859 There's a whole new section for parking alternatives. What 01:22:39.859 --> 01:22:44.689 is proposed before you today is much more flexible for both 01:22:44.689 --> 01:22:47.770 the developer without compromising surrounding 01:22:47.770 --> 01:22:48.960 neighborhoods. 01:22:48.960 --> 01:22:51.960 It allows you to let the market decide in many cases. 01:22:51.960 --> 01:22:56.000 There's an escape valve for the director to be able to look 01:22:56.000 --> 01:22:59.960 at a study produced by whatever tenant it may be to say, 01:22:59.960 --> 01:23:01.960 hey, here's exactly how much parking we need. 01:23:01.960 --> 01:23:04.960 Fine. Let's have a conversation there. 01:23:04.960 --> 01:23:08.449 There are alternatives that allow for shared parking and a 01:23:08.449 --> 01:23:11.789 reduction in the amount of parking required for parking 01:23:11.789 --> 01:23:13.960 near fixed transit facilities. 01:23:13.960 --> 01:23:17.260 A reduction, 25 percent of your parking, realizing that, 01:23:17.260 --> 01:23:18.960 hey, that's a real incentive. 01:23:18.960 --> 01:23:22.390 If you're low located close to fixed transit line, you don 01:23:22.390 --> 01:23:23.960 't need as much parking. 01:23:23.960 --> 01:23:27.750 And I think 25 percent is pretty high, actually, and maybe 01:23:27.750 --> 01:23:31.060 not that percentage of users of the site will actually be 01:23:31.060 --> 01:23:32.960 on public transportation. 01:23:32.960 --> 01:23:35.239 So it's a really good incentive for the development 01:23:35.239 --> 01:23:35.960 community. 01:23:35.960 --> 01:23:40.500 We're going to meet with them later today, actually, to 01:23:40.500 --> 01:23:44.960 walk them through this this last module. 01:23:44.960 --> 01:23:49.380 And and I think kind of take the feedback we hear from you. 01:23:49.380 --> 01:23:53.899 I think the public gets really nervous in communities where 01:23:53.899 --> 01:23:57.960 we say eliminate minimum parking requirements. 01:23:57.960 --> 01:24:01.100 So we just need to find the middle ground and see what fits 01:24:01.100 --> 01:24:01.960 for Denton. 01:24:01.960 --> 01:24:05.380 The bottom line. This is a more flexible approach and 01:24:05.380 --> 01:24:07.960 leaves you a little bit of wiggle room. 01:24:07.960 --> 01:24:13.550 And as Tark said, we did adjust it to require less parking 01:24:13.550 --> 01:24:15.960 for most for a lot of uses. 01:24:15.960 --> 01:24:20.180 And that coupled with the flexibility standards to say you 01:24:20.180 --> 01:24:23.960 're already not required to have as much as today. 01:24:23.960 --> 01:24:27.260 But if you do these things, you can also reduce that number 01:24:27.260 --> 01:24:28.960 by a certain percentage. 01:24:28.960 --> 01:24:31.960 So there's a lot more flexibility. 01:24:31.960 --> 01:24:39.449 And with the maximum increase, you can provide more. So we 01:24:39.449 --> 01:24:40.960 'll see if it develops. 01:24:40.960 --> 01:24:45.960 We did have as long as it's open and it's brought out. 01:24:45.960 --> 01:24:50.020 We did have a conversation on council work session on 01:24:50.020 --> 01:24:52.960 parking recently about multifamily. 01:24:52.960 --> 01:24:56.390 And I believe the discussion direction was different than 01:24:56.390 --> 01:24:59.960 this one space per bedroom because of how the mix goes. 01:24:59.960 --> 01:25:03.880 If you're all one bedrooms, you've got thirty two one 01:25:03.880 --> 01:25:04.960 bedrooms. 01:25:04.960 --> 01:25:07.960 You're only required thirty two parking places. 01:25:07.960 --> 01:25:11.560 If you're two bedrooms and you've got sixteen units, thirty 01:25:11.560 --> 01:25:13.960 two parking places probably works. 01:25:13.960 --> 01:25:17.189 But there's much more likely that you're going to have two 01:25:17.189 --> 01:25:21.960 people living in a one bedroom than in. 01:25:21.960 --> 01:25:27.109 And generally you only have to sometimes three. The third's 01:25:27.109 --> 01:25:29.960 generally a child in a two bedroom. 01:25:29.960 --> 01:25:32.949 I want to make sure that we go back and look at what 01:25:32.949 --> 01:25:36.710 council recommended at that time and get that incorporated 01:25:36.710 --> 01:25:36.960 in. 01:25:36.960 --> 01:25:41.800 Yeah. And we just received that feedback. It didn't make it 01:25:41.800 --> 01:25:43.960 into this draft. 01:25:43.960 --> 01:25:47.100 I think we'll do a better job of incorporating those 01:25:47.100 --> 01:25:49.960 discussions into the consolidated draft. 01:25:49.960 --> 01:25:52.260 And I realize too there's going to be communities maybe 01:25:52.260 --> 01:25:54.710 like Fortiness, but definitely on the East Coast where it's 01:25:54.710 --> 01:25:58.350 denser areas where people aren't dependent on their cars as 01:25:58.350 --> 01:25:58.960 we are here in Texas. 01:25:58.960 --> 01:26:02.960 We love our automobiles. We love the privacy it gives us. 01:26:02.960 --> 01:26:03.960 But you know things are changing. 01:26:03.960 --> 01:26:07.659 We are becoming more dense and public transportation is a 01:26:07.659 --> 01:26:12.119 vital part of it. So anyway, just want to see that 01:26:12.119 --> 01:26:13.960 conversation. 01:26:13.960 --> 01:26:18.920 I just want to throw out just as a like the parking lot 01:26:18.920 --> 01:26:23.960 over off university for the where Kroger is and all that 01:26:23.960 --> 01:26:23.960 stuff. 01:26:23.960 --> 01:26:26.880 A lot of people talk about how large wasted space that 01:26:26.880 --> 01:26:30.489 parking lot is. But two times a year when something's going 01:26:30.489 --> 01:26:32.960 on in the fairgrounds that lot is full. 01:26:32.960 --> 01:26:37.659 So I mean also looking at what is around and what can you 01:26:37.659 --> 01:26:38.960 can co park. 01:26:38.960 --> 01:26:43.640 You know other buildings can take advantage of that if that 01:26:43.640 --> 01:26:47.380 would have been you know then where the people that go to 01:26:47.380 --> 01:26:50.960 the fair or to those events would be in the neighborhood. 01:26:50.960 --> 01:26:55.300 Yeah. So that parking lot does serve a purpose even though 01:26:55.300 --> 01:26:57.960 it's not very pretty. That's right. 01:26:57.960 --> 01:27:02.420 So I mean I understand going down to minimums all you know 01:27:02.420 --> 01:27:06.779 and not having extra parking but looking at the area and 01:27:06.779 --> 01:27:10.960 what could use that for certain is something worth. 01:27:10.960 --> 01:27:13.960 Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't trying to create a one plan fits all. 01:27:13.960 --> 01:27:19.369 But I think at least having that conversation and opening 01:27:19.369 --> 01:27:23.310 it up where there are some areas where if you've got this 01:27:23.310 --> 01:27:24.960 minimum it really doesn't apply. 01:27:24.960 --> 01:27:28.560 And that may be they may be few and far apart. But that 01:27:28.560 --> 01:27:31.960 that's an option that ought to be out there. 01:27:31.960 --> 01:27:36.619 Well it doesn't apply downtown and that's that's aligned 01:27:36.619 --> 01:27:40.960 with most downtowns at least in more modern codes. 01:27:40.960 --> 01:27:44.390 You don't want to get into the business of regulating how 01:27:44.390 --> 01:27:47.909 downtowns manage parking that lives outside of a code and 01:27:47.909 --> 01:27:51.369 more of a transportation management and parking demand 01:27:51.369 --> 01:27:52.960 management system. 01:27:52.960 --> 01:27:56.529 There are ways you can meter and permit and collect fees in 01:27:56.529 --> 01:27:58.960 lieu to build parking structures. 01:27:58.960 --> 01:28:02.329 Lots of different ways to make sure that you have enough 01:28:02.329 --> 01:28:05.949 space requiring parking in some locations like that means 01:28:05.949 --> 01:28:09.479 you're going to end up with surface parking lots that take 01:28:09.479 --> 01:28:12.970 up viable retail space and that create character of a 01:28:12.970 --> 01:28:13.960 downtown. 01:28:13.960 --> 01:28:18.270 So we've at least got that in there. I'm hearing from Larry 01:28:18.270 --> 01:28:22.609 especially that hey let's have the conversation at a bigger 01:28:22.609 --> 01:28:26.949 scale with Denton community about maybe reducing minimums 01:28:26.949 --> 01:28:30.960 maybe getting rid of minimums and just setting a maximum 01:28:30.960 --> 01:28:34.960 and letting the market decide how much we should be parked. 01:28:34.960 --> 01:28:37.850 That's going to be problematic for things like multifamily 01:28:37.850 --> 01:28:40.960 and residential. You've got an SRO challenge here. 01:28:40.960 --> 01:28:45.079 That's probably where you draw the line. So our job now is 01:28:45.079 --> 01:28:49.210 to take those comments find the middle ground and see what 01:28:49.210 --> 01:28:49.960 works. 01:28:49.960 --> 01:28:53.960 It scares me to death. It should keep you up. 01:28:53.960 --> 01:28:58.119 We have parking problems all over town today with the 01:28:58.119 --> 01:29:02.619 exception we can pick the few large parking lots but for 01:29:02.619 --> 01:29:05.960 the most part it's parking problems. 01:29:05.960 --> 01:29:11.369 But finding credits finding incentives finding some way to 01:29:11.369 --> 01:29:13.960 offset that absolutely. 01:29:13.960 --> 01:29:18.960 And I think those are built in. 01:29:18.960 --> 01:29:21.960 Guys you're not going to figure it all out for every use. 01:29:21.960 --> 01:29:23.960 And five years from now. 01:29:23.960 --> 01:29:27.630 It's going to be before the dais again and say, we don't 01:29:27.630 --> 01:29:32.399 have enough for this particular thing that we didn't think 01:29:32.399 --> 01:29:32.960 about. 01:29:32.960 --> 01:29:37.619 We've got too much. And now let's change the standard again 01:29:37.619 --> 01:29:37.960 . 01:29:37.960 --> 01:29:41.180 But you're asking the right questions and I can tee that up 01:29:41.180 --> 01:29:45.960 tonight too and see what gets thrown. 01:29:45.960 --> 01:29:48.380 So we're going to let the developers decide how much 01:29:48.380 --> 01:29:49.960 parking they should provide. 01:29:49.960 --> 01:29:53.960 I'll hide behind Ron. 01:29:53.960 --> 01:29:56.960 Okay. 01:29:56.960 --> 01:30:03.079 I just cover a couple of other things on the parking. One 01:30:03.079 --> 01:30:05.100 was the loading facilities loading happens or deliveries 01:30:05.100 --> 01:30:06.960 rather happen more frequently smaller trucks. 01:30:06.960 --> 01:30:10.090 This is no surprise to you. You see the Amazon trucks. They 01:30:10.090 --> 01:30:10.960 're not even marked anymore. 01:30:10.960 --> 01:30:13.960 See FedEx trucks UPS. 01:30:13.960 --> 01:30:18.090 They have better ways than big semi trucks with trailers 01:30:18.090 --> 01:30:21.960 for delivering goods, especially for smaller businesses. 01:30:21.960 --> 01:30:24.989 So we have exempted loading off street loading for those 01:30:24.989 --> 01:30:28.960 really small buildings, less than 10,000 square feet. 01:30:28.960 --> 01:30:33.229 That's a change. It's a change that's follows what most 01:30:33.229 --> 01:30:34.960 communities do. 01:30:34.960 --> 01:30:38.960 Some exempt them even up to 25,000 square feet. 01:30:38.960 --> 01:30:41.840 You're not going to let the Home Depot come in and not 01:30:41.840 --> 01:30:44.960 provide some some loading births or the Wal-Mart. 01:30:44.960 --> 01:30:48.539 This takes care of the small stuff because requiring an off 01:30:48.539 --> 01:30:51.810 street loading birth, you now have no room to put your 01:30:51.810 --> 01:30:55.430 actual building or off street parking or landscaping, all 01:30:55.430 --> 01:31:00.960 the other things that you require on a site. 01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:06.029 And in addition to not requiring minimum parking in your 01:31:06.029 --> 01:31:11.310 downtown, we've exempted non residential uses with less 01:31:11.310 --> 01:31:14.960 than 5000 square foot lot. That's a very small lot. 01:31:14.960 --> 01:31:19.960 Not sure how many of those you even have at this point. 01:31:19.960 --> 01:31:23.590 If you were to develop or redevelop this takes care of kind 01:31:23.590 --> 01:31:27.159 of a main street feel where you've got buildings up close 01:31:27.159 --> 01:31:30.960 to the street. The lots are narrow and not very deep. 01:31:30.960 --> 01:31:33.510 And if you require a certain the same amount of parking 01:31:33.510 --> 01:31:34.960 that you would otherwise. 01:31:34.960 --> 01:31:38.510 Well, I can't do the business. I actually can't move into 01:31:38.510 --> 01:31:40.960 that space because I'm only this wide. 01:31:40.960 --> 01:31:45.960 I've got room for one parallel space or 245 degree angle, 01:31:45.960 --> 01:31:47.960 maybe 390. 01:31:47.960 --> 01:31:49.960 So that that's the purpose there. 01:31:49.960 --> 01:31:52.960 And again, taking care of parking. 01:31:52.960 --> 01:31:57.569 One way is through the table. The other is through managing 01:31:57.569 --> 01:32:00.960 your parking around the community. 01:32:00.960 --> 01:32:03.779 I don't want to leave this page because the next one is a 01:32:03.779 --> 01:32:10.119 different topic. Are there other questions about parking 01:32:10.119 --> 01:32:13.960 questions concerns comments. 01:32:13.960 --> 01:32:22.960 Fences, just kidding. 01:32:22.960 --> 01:32:31.960 Not contentious at all as building design standards right. 01:32:31.960 --> 01:32:34.960 For legal. 01:32:34.960 --> 01:32:39.670 Councilman Briggs has to leave if that leaves me is the 01:32:39.670 --> 01:32:43.960 only council person we no longer have a forum. 01:32:43.960 --> 01:32:49.960 Decisions. 01:32:49.960 --> 01:32:56.960 Okay. 01:32:56.960 --> 01:32:58.960 All right. 01:32:58.960 --> 01:33:05.460 And then why would why you interrupt for next week. Are we 01:33:05.460 --> 01:33:10.069 good with meeting next week. If I can just get us a date 01:33:10.069 --> 01:33:10.960 out there. 01:33:10.960 --> 01:33:12.960 I'll shoot you an email. I'm sorry. I just got your email. 01:33:12.960 --> 01:33:14.960 No, it's okay. That's okay. 01:33:14.960 --> 01:33:18.420 And again, just trying to use a tool so that way we can 01:33:18.420 --> 01:33:23.960 kind of work through that. 01:33:23.960 --> 01:33:27.520 It looks like Mondays and Keely I think Mondays are a 01:33:27.520 --> 01:33:30.960 problem for you. Correct. 01:33:30.960 --> 01:33:31.960 I'm okay. 01:33:31.960 --> 01:33:34.960 Oh, you are. 01:33:34.960 --> 01:33:37.960 I think. 01:33:37.960 --> 01:33:41.289 When I asked the first time Monday with Monday, Wednesday, 01:33:41.289 --> 01:33:44.560 Friday, Monday was preferred because I was reminded when I 01:33:44.560 --> 01:33:45.960 talked to the mayor. 01:33:45.960 --> 01:33:48.960 Mondays were good with him as well. 01:33:48.960 --> 01:33:53.960 I don't know if we're prepared to. 01:33:53.960 --> 01:33:56.960 To meet on Monday. 01:33:56.960 --> 01:33:59.960 I can make it. 01:33:59.960 --> 01:34:02.960 After you. 01:34:02.960 --> 01:34:12.960 But you were saying morning's problems. 01:34:12.960 --> 01:34:18.960 I can't do my day after I have to be morning. 01:34:18.960 --> 01:34:22.960 Because this is not permanent. 01:34:22.960 --> 01:34:25.960 It's going to be for a couple of weeks here. 01:34:25.960 --> 01:34:27.960 Or this at least this next. 01:34:27.960 --> 01:34:33.960 I can be flexible. 01:34:33.960 --> 01:34:42.960 Because Wednesday is the service. 01:34:42.960 --> 01:34:44.960 City service awards. 01:34:44.960 --> 01:34:54.960 Oh, fun. 01:34:54.960 --> 01:35:00.960 Is there barbecue. 01:35:00.960 --> 01:35:06.960 I'm okay with it. 01:35:06.960 --> 01:35:10.960 Thursday. 01:35:10.960 --> 01:35:11.960 Thursday. 01:35:11.960 --> 01:35:15.119 I'm okay with it this week and that's probably the only 01:35:15.119 --> 01:35:18.960 Thursday of the month that I'm good with. 01:35:18.960 --> 01:35:31.960 Yeah. 01:35:31.960 --> 01:35:35.960 Morning it is. 01:35:35.960 --> 01:35:37.960 What's morning? 01:35:37.960 --> 01:35:38.960 10. 01:35:38.960 --> 01:35:41.960 10 going once, going twice. 01:35:41.960 --> 01:35:43.960 Not before 9. 01:35:43.960 --> 01:35:48.960 I got to get the dog. 01:35:48.960 --> 01:35:49.960 10 o'clock it is. 01:35:49.960 --> 01:35:51.960 10 o'clock on Thursday. 01:35:51.960 --> 01:35:56.960 I'll send the calendar. 01:35:56.960 --> 01:35:58.960 Thank you. 01:35:58.960 --> 01:36:02.729 So I'm going to speak in an auctioneer voice now to get 01:36:02.729 --> 01:36:05.960 building design in before you have to go. 01:36:05.960 --> 01:36:09.460 We've organized it very differently from how you have it 01:36:09.460 --> 01:36:09.960 now. 01:36:09.960 --> 01:36:11.960 What page are you on? 01:36:11.960 --> 01:36:13.960 Let's go to page 107. 01:36:13.960 --> 01:36:16.960 That's the purpose statement for site and building design. 01:36:16.960 --> 01:36:21.960 So there are standards that apply to all new development. 01:36:21.960 --> 01:36:24.300 There are standards that apply to single family duplex and 01:36:24.300 --> 01:36:24.960 townhomes. 01:36:24.960 --> 01:36:27.960 So we're talking about people living in houses. 01:36:27.960 --> 01:36:31.960 We're talking about different standards for multi-family, 01:36:31.960 --> 01:36:34.960 different standards for non-residential and mixed uses. 01:36:34.960 --> 01:36:38.670 Those buildings have a different feel and need to create a 01:36:38.670 --> 01:36:42.500 different environment at the streetscape level and how they 01:36:42.500 --> 01:36:44.960 interact with people on the street. 01:36:44.960 --> 01:36:48.409 And then even more additional standards for the mixed use 01:36:48.409 --> 01:36:50.960 neighborhood and mixed use downtown. 01:36:50.960 --> 01:36:54.369 Now, that doesn't mean they're overregulated from what you 01:36:54.369 --> 01:36:54.960 do now. 01:36:54.960 --> 01:36:58.670 It just means those pedestrian oriented districts, which is 01:36:58.670 --> 01:37:03.409 what you call them today, have a different set of character 01:37:03.409 --> 01:37:03.960 standards, 01:37:03.960 --> 01:37:05.960 a different set of regulations. 01:37:05.960 --> 01:37:10.619 And furthermore, on this topic, the city is currently 01:37:10.619 --> 01:37:14.350 working on a set of draft design guidelines and/or 01:37:14.350 --> 01:37:18.850 standards that would apply to the square and immediately 01:37:18.850 --> 01:37:21.960 beyond the square, north, south, east and west. 01:37:21.960 --> 01:37:25.869 Some of those components that you just can't apply a one 01:37:25.869 --> 01:37:28.960 size fits all across the city of Denton. 01:37:28.960 --> 01:37:33.670 The square is different. The immediate vicinity around the 01:37:33.670 --> 01:37:38.010 square just has a different feel and character and should 01:37:38.010 --> 01:37:39.960 be regulated as such. 01:37:39.960 --> 01:37:43.640 So expect further discussion on that. How would that tool 01:37:43.640 --> 01:37:47.300 work? What do those standards look like is under 01:37:47.300 --> 01:37:48.960 development now? 01:37:48.960 --> 01:37:53.810 Under council new business, I guess a couple of weeks back, 01:37:53.810 --> 01:37:57.779 I requested because part of the oak hickory is in my 01:37:57.779 --> 01:38:01.119 district. I know that there are other districts that you 01:38:01.119 --> 01:38:02.960 mentioned that are off the square. 01:38:02.960 --> 01:38:06.250 I just wanted to make sure that you guys were going to talk 01:38:06.250 --> 01:38:09.689 with those, the people that are in those districts 01:38:09.689 --> 01:38:13.880 specifically when you're implementing design standards for 01:38:13.880 --> 01:38:14.960 their area. 01:38:14.960 --> 01:38:17.689 We're not going to talk to them individually. We're not 01:38:17.689 --> 01:38:20.270 staff is probably working with them on other planning 01:38:20.270 --> 01:38:20.960 efforts. 01:38:20.960 --> 01:38:24.460 The way we have captured that very issue is that you have a 01:38:24.460 --> 01:38:28.100 lot of neighborhoods and overlays overlay districts that 01:38:28.100 --> 01:38:31.960 have their own rules and standards within that district. 01:38:31.960 --> 01:38:33.960 We did not touch those. 01:38:33.960 --> 01:38:36.420 Rather, we said these site and building design standards 01:38:36.420 --> 01:38:37.960 apply if you're doing new stuff. 01:38:37.960 --> 01:38:41.529 But if you're in one of those districts and these conflict 01:38:41.529 --> 01:38:45.199 with those standards, those overlay district standards 01:38:45.199 --> 01:38:46.960 apply, not these ones. 01:38:46.960 --> 01:38:51.220 So that we don't want to disrupt all of the work that's 01:38:51.220 --> 01:38:56.960 been done in those important neighborhoods. 01:38:56.960 --> 01:38:58.960 We say any overlay. 01:38:58.960 --> 01:39:09.819 And there's also other districts being created to at the 01:39:09.819 --> 01:39:11.960 moment. 01:39:11.960 --> 01:39:15.979 Yeah, there's going to be recommendations and policy out of 01:39:15.979 --> 01:39:19.960 that small area plan that might require changes to either a 01:39:19.960 --> 01:39:24.270 zoning district regulations overlay regulations or site 01:39:24.270 --> 01:39:26.960 design standards in particular. 01:39:26.960 --> 01:39:32.689 So we have to let those policies, you know, make their way 01:39:32.689 --> 01:39:37.500 onto the page and be memorialized and then adjust 01:39:37.500 --> 01:39:38.960 accordingly. 01:39:38.960 --> 01:39:44.430 From a looking at it from a national standard or something 01:39:44.430 --> 01:39:46.960 trying to figure out if this is unique to denting or not. 01:39:46.960 --> 01:39:48.960 We have single family. We have two flexes. 01:39:48.960 --> 01:39:51.960 And then you got a multi family. 01:39:51.960 --> 01:39:55.050 And so anything that's a three plex or four plex is 01:39:55.050 --> 01:39:58.779 considered multi family. Is that pretty well actually we 01:39:58.779 --> 01:40:02.210 just expanded that list through the addendum for that very 01:40:02.210 --> 01:40:05.300 reason that try plexes and four plexes are are kind of an 01:40:05.300 --> 01:40:09.329 in between for the missing middle housing is a term that's 01:40:09.329 --> 01:40:10.960 been thrown around a lot. 01:40:10.960 --> 01:40:14.909 Don't don't back us into a corner of we're either this this 01:40:14.909 --> 01:40:18.960 or that there's lots of different ways to put families into 01:40:18.960 --> 01:40:19.960 housing. 01:40:19.960 --> 01:40:22.699 And so we've added a couple of additional uses in the table 01:40:22.699 --> 01:40:22.960 . 01:40:22.960 --> 01:40:25.960 Okay, we do have those added now in the end. Yes. 01:40:25.960 --> 01:40:29.960 But they haven't seen it yet. Okay. Okay. Okay. 01:40:29.960 --> 01:40:35.960 Good. That's the last meeting. 01:40:35.960 --> 01:40:36.960 Okay. 01:40:36.960 --> 01:40:42.960 You you are unique in Denton, but not in that regard. 01:40:42.960 --> 01:40:46.869 And also in the environmental committee, we did talk about 01:40:46.869 --> 01:40:50.699 the different types of housing and would like to talk about 01:40:50.699 --> 01:40:54.710 requiring recycling containers as well and try to implement 01:40:54.710 --> 01:40:58.649 that into this new code for new development, new multi 01:40:58.649 --> 01:41:03.449 family, and then distinguishing those like like the four p 01:41:03.449 --> 01:41:04.960 lex could use the carts. 01:41:04.960 --> 01:41:10.689 But you know, like have those, because I do know that when 01:41:10.689 --> 01:41:13.409 it's in this design, you have to make room for dumpster and 01:41:13.409 --> 01:41:13.960 recycling. 01:41:13.960 --> 01:41:21.960 It came out of committee that we wanted that requirement 01:41:21.960 --> 01:41:23.960 for for multi family. 01:41:23.960 --> 01:41:27.960 Is that really where you were going. Yes. 01:41:27.960 --> 01:41:33.960 So as we talk about multi family is right. 01:41:33.960 --> 01:41:37.880 That's fine. Most of the time, that type of requirement is 01:41:37.880 --> 01:41:43.960 not in the development code. It's not a land use. 01:41:43.960 --> 01:41:44.960 Yeah. 01:41:44.960 --> 01:41:47.649 But when we're talking about the screening, which we do, we 01:41:47.649 --> 01:41:50.779 talked about how to screen refuse containers. That's a big 01:41:50.779 --> 01:41:54.960 deal here in Denton, we've keep hearing about the trash. 01:41:54.960 --> 01:42:00.149 And at least accommodating for multiple bins, one for 01:42:00.149 --> 01:42:03.960 recycling one for waste management. I think there are some 01:42:03.960 --> 01:42:03.960 components that could be inserted here. 01:42:03.960 --> 01:42:04.960 I just wanted to bring that up. 01:42:04.960 --> 01:42:05.960 Yeah. 01:42:05.960 --> 01:42:09.770 And I know that we were we wanted to be able to implement 01:42:09.770 --> 01:42:13.560 because council got several, several letters about 01:42:13.560 --> 01:42:17.949 introducing recycling to multi family. And it's something 01:42:17.949 --> 01:42:22.170 that we've been talking about. So wherever we put it, the 01:42:22.170 --> 01:42:24.960 conversation needs to be started. 01:42:24.960 --> 01:42:26.960 Yes. Okay. 01:42:26.960 --> 01:42:28.960 Is that correct? 01:42:28.960 --> 01:42:32.960 Yeah. 01:42:32.960 --> 01:42:36.960 So there's any other direction. 01:42:36.960 --> 01:42:40.409 You want to provide for staff or comfortable having it, you 01:42:40.409 --> 01:42:45.960 know, as we have a core. 01:42:45.960 --> 01:42:52.960 I said it all. 01:42:52.960 --> 01:42:54.960 Yeah, I'm gonna change numbers. 01:42:54.960 --> 01:43:03.960 I'm gonna change offices too. 01:43:03.960 --> 01:43:09.960 Just basically on design standards. 01:43:09.960 --> 01:43:25.029 There's a lot of minimal standards. I will just say that 01:43:25.029 --> 01:43:25.250 compared to a lot of communities. We do. There are a lot of 01:43:25.250 --> 01:43:25.479 standards, but they're not requiring an awful lot. It's 01:43:25.479 --> 01:43:25.720 basically, think about the buildings that you like in Dent 01:43:25.720 --> 01:43:25.960 on. 01:43:25.960 --> 01:43:30.220 And those buildings meet these minimum design standards and 01:43:30.220 --> 01:43:34.560 they exceed those minimum design standards. There might be 01:43:34.560 --> 01:43:38.550 some areas that you think are a little more stringent than 01:43:38.550 --> 01:43:40.470 they should be. And we just would like that feedback, but 01:43:40.470 --> 01:43:42.960 ultimately covering the elements that you see listed here. 01:43:42.960 --> 01:43:46.989 If you've got multiple buildings on a site, it's important 01:43:46.989 --> 01:43:50.920 to think about how they're situated on the site, not all cl 01:43:50.920 --> 01:43:54.779 umped in the middle, like the traditional old mall, but 01:43:54.779 --> 01:43:59.300 rather creating a space that, you know, captures views or 01:43:59.300 --> 01:44:02.960 creates kind of a main street feel. 01:44:02.960 --> 01:44:07.829 It's adjacent to prominent intersections, things like that, 01:44:07.829 --> 01:44:09.960 facing courtyard space. 01:44:09.960 --> 01:44:14.220 The mass and form of buildings is important, articulating 01:44:14.220 --> 01:44:18.390 walls, stepping back different portions of the building 01:44:18.390 --> 01:44:22.119 just to make sure that you've got some architectural 01:44:22.119 --> 01:44:24.960 variety and projections going on. 01:44:24.960 --> 01:44:28.779 Building materials are one of the most important things 01:44:28.779 --> 01:44:32.420 that even a community who's not doing a lot of building 01:44:32.420 --> 01:44:36.319 design regulation, they still do care about the types of 01:44:36.319 --> 01:44:38.960 things that you use on a building. 01:44:38.960 --> 01:44:42.670 Nothing in there that's really earth-shattering compared to 01:44:42.670 --> 01:44:47.170 what you have now. We'll probably talk about, maybe talk 01:44:47.170 --> 01:44:52.050 more at length once those downtown standards come out about 01:44:52.050 --> 01:44:56.960 some other creative materials that may be appropriate. 01:44:56.960 --> 01:45:00.569 Transparency in windows is the final element in site and 01:45:00.569 --> 01:45:01.960 building design. 01:45:01.960 --> 01:45:04.640 It's important to think about breaking up, not only 01:45:04.640 --> 01:45:07.560 breaking up the physical mass of the building, but being 01:45:07.560 --> 01:45:11.000 able to see through it and walk through it. Having windows 01:45:11.000 --> 01:45:14.680 and door openings creates a much different space in the 01:45:14.680 --> 01:45:17.960 public realm than just a blank wall or facade. 01:45:17.960 --> 01:45:21.409 And so we've included some minimum standards there for 01:45:21.409 --> 01:45:25.090 mostly first story, but also some standards for the upper 01:45:25.090 --> 01:45:28.770 stories in the mixed use districts, making sure that it's 01:45:28.770 --> 01:45:30.960 not just blank walls up there. 01:45:30.960 --> 01:45:34.729 And you're not going to get, most developers won't do that 01:45:34.729 --> 01:45:38.409 anyhow, but if you don't say don't do it, then they would 01:45:38.409 --> 01:45:40.960 ultimately be allowed to do that. 01:45:40.960 --> 01:45:49.289 So preventing the least aesthetic building was really the 01:45:49.289 --> 01:45:50.960 message here. 01:45:50.960 --> 01:45:53.960 Raise the bar for quality. 01:45:53.960 --> 01:46:00.560 There's a lot in here. Do you all have questions just right 01:46:00.560 --> 01:46:06.260 off the bat about any of the site and building design 01:46:06.260 --> 01:46:07.960 standards? 01:46:07.960 --> 01:46:12.960 Okay, Scott, did you want to say anything more about around 01:46:12.960 --> 01:46:16.960 the square? 01:46:16.960 --> 01:46:23.439 I guess beyond the fact that next week, is it next week P&Z 01:46:23.439 --> 01:46:27.029 ? Yes, next week. Next week's P&Z we're going to talk about 01:46:27.029 --> 01:46:28.960 design standards for the square. 01:46:28.960 --> 01:46:36.079 You may have seen this material already. We have had four 01:46:36.079 --> 01:46:38.960 workshops. 01:46:38.960 --> 01:46:43.909 We first went, let me back up give a little bit of history. 01:46:43.909 --> 01:46:48.960 Ultimately, I was given direction because of the mini mall 01:46:48.960 --> 01:46:51.560 and what happened with the mini mall and where we're going 01:46:51.560 --> 01:46:53.960 to rebuild, what we're going to rebuild. 01:46:53.960 --> 01:46:58.079 And we were talking about we have little to no standards, 01:46:58.079 --> 01:47:01.960 so it created some frustration within the community. 01:47:01.960 --> 01:47:05.470 What we're going to do, how we're going to regulate, why we 01:47:05.470 --> 01:47:06.960 let them tear it down. 01:47:06.960 --> 01:47:09.359 Putting a historic overlay on that is going to be very 01:47:09.359 --> 01:47:11.960 challenging, so we're just taking some baby steps. 01:47:11.960 --> 01:47:15.399 The first step in that is to say that we recognize, 01:47:15.399 --> 01:47:19.500 identify that the square is unique, very unique, and that 01:47:19.500 --> 01:47:21.960 we want to create that overlay. 01:47:21.960 --> 01:47:26.970 Creating that overlay is the square and a block beyond the 01:47:26.970 --> 01:47:31.960 square, the Mews streets, what you may know them as. 01:47:31.960 --> 01:47:35.409 Cartwrights is a very easy example of they have a front 01:47:35.409 --> 01:47:36.960 door and a back door. 01:47:36.960 --> 01:47:40.460 Just treating that square as the block behind it and the fa 01:47:40.460 --> 01:47:42.960 çade that is contained within that. 01:47:42.960 --> 01:47:48.619 We started with the property owners in that area. We cast a 01:47:48.619 --> 01:47:53.220 broader net than that to say should the square be this area 01:47:53.220 --> 01:47:57.069 out here, which might encompass four or five blocks beyond 01:47:57.069 --> 01:47:57.960 the square? 01:47:57.960 --> 01:48:01.960 Or should the square be the square and that block? 01:48:01.960 --> 01:48:05.720 So we met with the property owners first, had a very good 01:48:05.720 --> 01:48:06.960 conversation. 01:48:06.960 --> 01:48:10.350 It was a couple hours long, kind of scaled that back to 01:48:10.350 --> 01:48:11.960 where we're at today. 01:48:11.960 --> 01:48:18.960 We met with a couple other downtown business groups. 01:48:18.960 --> 01:48:28.409 We met with the HLC and so we're going to go to PDZ and the 01:48:28.409 --> 01:48:31.489 council and then we're going to come forth with a 01:48:31.489 --> 01:48:34.619 recommendation for that overlay, what that's going to look 01:48:34.619 --> 01:48:34.960 like. 01:48:34.960 --> 01:48:38.689 And really that conversation is going to surround the back 01:48:38.689 --> 01:48:41.960 of guidelines or standards or a hybrid thereof. 01:48:41.960 --> 01:48:49.579 So meaning is it a shall or a may? And it is a means to 01:48:49.579 --> 01:48:53.329 preserve the character of the square without tying it to it 01:48:53.329 --> 01:48:56.960 being a historical property. 01:48:56.960 --> 01:49:01.279 So those rules are very different, but the concept is the 01:49:01.279 --> 01:49:01.960 same. 01:49:01.960 --> 01:49:06.899 Looking at timeless design and then once we get beyond the 01:49:06.899 --> 01:49:11.609 square then we can look and start looking at what does it 01:49:11.609 --> 01:49:14.960 look like to the east of the square? 01:49:14.960 --> 01:49:17.930 What do we need to do there? And it would probably follow 01:49:17.930 --> 01:49:19.960 very closely to the square, but it's going to be different 01:49:19.960 --> 01:49:21.960 because it's more industrial feel. 01:49:21.960 --> 01:49:25.899 North, south and west is going to have a very different 01:49:25.899 --> 01:49:29.869 character and then it will really encompass the entire 01:49:29.869 --> 01:49:33.560 central business district and really we're evaluating the 01:49:33.560 --> 01:49:35.960 central business district and what that should entail. 01:49:35.960 --> 01:49:40.100 So kind of a very high level in the next two weeks I'll get 01:49:40.100 --> 01:49:44.720 P&Z's feedback and council's feedback and I'll be providing 01:49:44.720 --> 01:49:48.880 all of those comments ultimately to council of what the 01:49:48.880 --> 01:49:51.960 outcomes from those meetings were. 01:49:51.960 --> 01:49:55.670 We've had overwhelming support. We've had no one that's 01:49:55.670 --> 01:50:00.170 opposed to doing what it is that we're proposing to do. So 01:50:00.170 --> 01:50:04.149 I think we're on the right track and we might need to get 01:50:04.149 --> 01:50:04.960 ready to be. 01:50:04.960 --> 01:50:08.619 I like that. Where are you going with this? I just want to 01:50:08.619 --> 01:50:11.859 clarify the historical concept, the element, the historical 01:50:11.859 --> 01:50:15.399 element isn't being totally removed. It's just not going to 01:50:15.399 --> 01:50:18.960 be the primary concept for this overlay district. 01:50:18.960 --> 01:50:24.390 Correct. Whatever is deemed historic today stays. All of 01:50:24.390 --> 01:50:29.420 the work that's been done or any future work to be done, it 01:50:29.420 --> 01:50:34.020 may help in fact to do that because we define the area a 01:50:34.020 --> 01:50:37.960 little more closely and then we can have those more 01:50:37.960 --> 01:50:38.960 challenging conversations. 01:50:38.960 --> 01:50:42.699 But today there are no design standards so anybody can 01:50:42.699 --> 01:50:46.609 build anything that they want or demolish whatever they 01:50:46.609 --> 01:50:50.329 want if it's not already done. This process will really 01:50:50.329 --> 01:50:53.960 come up with a certificate of appropriateness. 01:50:53.960 --> 01:50:57.510 So before you can do whatever it is you're proposing to do, 01:50:57.510 --> 01:51:01.170 you'll bring it to staff. Staff will determine whether or 01:51:01.170 --> 01:51:05.020 not that that's appropriate. If it's a denial, the question 01:51:05.020 --> 01:51:08.220 is whether it goes to a group of the business owners or 01:51:08.220 --> 01:51:11.670 those property owners in that area, whether we have a 01:51:11.670 --> 01:51:14.510 design professional on that, whatever that makeup might 01:51:14.510 --> 01:51:15.960 look like. 01:51:15.960 --> 01:51:22.579 Some appeals board or whether that goes to HLC or ZEA or 01:51:22.579 --> 01:51:28.560 some other body, council. But I think the overwhelming 01:51:28.560 --> 01:51:33.060 support up until we went to HLC was having that as a really 01:51:33.060 --> 01:51:37.880 a community focused meeting the stakeholders, those that 01:51:37.880 --> 01:51:42.260 have a vested interest in the square, be the ones that say 01:51:42.260 --> 01:51:44.960 what's appropriate or not appropriate. 01:51:44.960 --> 01:51:48.399 And so right now it's just it's the square and a block 01:51:48.399 --> 01:51:50.960 around. Correct. Correct. 01:51:50.960 --> 01:51:54.960 Yes, this is the first phase. 01:51:54.960 --> 01:51:56.960 Hickory there. 01:51:56.960 --> 01:52:16.029 Well, and again, no, and we recognize that. But if we don't 01:52:16.029 --> 01:52:16.430 start somewhere, the larger the area, the more stakeholders 01:52:16.430 --> 01:52:16.819 , the more stakeholders, the greater diversity, the greater 01:52:16.819 --> 01:52:17.180 diversity in what the buildings are, the more challenges 01:52:17.180 --> 01:52:17.529 you have. So if we want something immediate and concise, 01:52:17.529 --> 01:52:20.920 then we need to start. And so that's why we tried to draw, 01:52:20.920 --> 01:52:22.960 just create the box. 01:52:22.960 --> 01:52:27.229 So in terms of how that gets folded into the DDC really 01:52:27.229 --> 01:52:32.159 depends on the result of the upcoming conversations. If 01:52:32.159 --> 01:52:37.010 they are truly standards, then they should be rolled into 01:52:37.010 --> 01:52:40.670 the DDC. If they are truly just guidelines, then we 01:52:40.670 --> 01:52:44.210 typically recommend leaving that outside of the code or 01:52:44.210 --> 01:52:47.960 including as an appendix or something. 01:52:47.960 --> 01:52:52.960 So TBD. 01:52:52.960 --> 01:52:56.220 We got five minutes. I think that's enough time to to 01:52:56.220 --> 01:53:00.489 finish up building design and and at a high level, give you 01:53:00.489 --> 01:53:05.029 an introduction to the lighting component key changes. I 01:53:05.029 --> 01:53:08.710 think we've talked about most of this, just allowing the 01:53:08.710 --> 01:53:12.960 director, the ability to approve alternatives for infill 01:53:12.960 --> 01:53:14.960 and redevelopment. 01:53:14.960 --> 01:53:17.909 An application is before Planning Commission or the City 01:53:17.909 --> 01:53:21.720 Council as well. Just having the escape valve to say, yeah, 01:53:21.720 --> 01:53:25.829 this is a common sense approach. We think it still meets 01:53:25.829 --> 01:53:27.960 the intent of the code. 01:53:27.960 --> 01:53:30.479 New standards for multi building developments. We talked 01:53:30.479 --> 01:53:33.949 about that new standards for the MN and MD. We talked about 01:53:33.949 --> 01:53:37.609 that as well. One of those major components of creating an 01:53:37.609 --> 01:53:41.050 active streetscape is making sure that the buildings are 01:53:41.050 --> 01:53:42.960 close enough to the street. 01:53:42.960 --> 01:53:46.000 So we have setback requirements in most places that say, 01:53:46.000 --> 01:53:48.819 don't be too close to the street. Well, these are different 01:53:48.819 --> 01:53:52.869 . These say have most of your building actually up towards 01:53:52.869 --> 01:53:56.869 the street, because that's what makes a viable mixed use 01:53:56.869 --> 01:53:59.960 zoning district in terms of character. 01:53:59.960 --> 01:54:03.890 And you see that around your square. You see that in a lot 01:54:03.890 --> 01:54:09.210 of places you see that in a lot of the new stuff that has 01:54:09.210 --> 01:54:10.960 gone up and done. 01:54:10.960 --> 01:54:15.960 Lighting, you have very few standards for lighting today. 01:54:15.960 --> 01:54:22.289 So we haven't really, we haven't really departed from the 01:54:22.289 --> 01:54:26.180 minimal standards approach, but inserted some some basics, 01:54:26.180 --> 01:54:30.090 such as don't spill over onto your neighbor's property. So 01:54:30.090 --> 01:54:33.329 setting a minimum foot candle standard at the property line 01:54:33.329 --> 01:54:34.960 of one foot candle. 01:54:34.960 --> 01:54:38.250 That's fairly dim. It's dim enough to where you're not 01:54:38.250 --> 01:54:41.210 going to be disturbing your neighbors, your code 01:54:41.210 --> 01:54:44.310 enforcement staff is equipped to handle that type of 01:54:44.310 --> 01:54:48.050 calculation and do measurements, should that be necessary, 01:54:48.050 --> 01:54:52.529 but just giving an outlet for the developer to show to 01:54:52.529 --> 01:54:57.960 staff and ultimately to the final decision making body that 01:54:57.960 --> 01:54:58.960 . 01:54:58.960 --> 01:55:02.039 Okay, here's, here's everything we've taken into account. 01:55:02.039 --> 01:55:04.960 Here's the type of lights that we're going to use on site. 01:55:04.960 --> 01:55:07.880 They're shining downward, they're downcast, they're shield 01:55:07.880 --> 01:55:10.960 ed lights, we're not spilling over onto adjacent properties. 01:55:10.960 --> 01:55:14.739 Fine. So these minimum standards just allow you and your 01:55:14.739 --> 01:55:17.500 staff to check that box to make sure that you're not 01:55:17.500 --> 01:55:18.960 running into issues. 01:55:18.960 --> 01:55:23.720 Again, you can get very complex with lighting standards. I 01:55:23.720 --> 01:55:27.720 'm working in Sedona right now, and that is a dark sky 01:55:27.720 --> 01:55:28.960 community. 01:55:28.960 --> 01:55:35.960 This is not that type of approach. This is the basic stuff. 01:55:35.960 --> 01:55:39.909 So with a couple of minutes left, let's just open it up. 01:55:39.909 --> 01:55:43.880 Talk about any well actually no sorry, let's, let's get 01:55:43.880 --> 01:55:47.449 into the zoning map because that was on the agenda is 01:55:47.449 --> 01:55:50.960 something that would be introduced today. 01:55:50.960 --> 01:55:54.460 I don't know if you all have spent any time with it, but it 01:55:54.460 --> 01:55:58.060 's up on the city website, so you could just search zoning 01:55:58.060 --> 01:56:01.649 map from the main search bar or go through the development 01:56:01.649 --> 01:56:05.960 code 2030 portion of the website and access it there. 01:56:05.960 --> 01:56:08.829 It's interactive you click on the site. It tells you what 01:56:08.829 --> 01:56:11.829 the new zoning is it tells you what your existing zoning is 01:56:11.829 --> 01:56:14.899 so that you can start having those conversations, either 01:56:14.899 --> 01:56:18.180 with your friends and family or with your constituents as 01:56:18.180 --> 01:56:18.960 well. 01:56:18.960 --> 01:56:22.659 I urge you and to visit it yourself but also to just talk 01:56:22.659 --> 01:56:26.600 to as many people as possible. There are a lot of meetings 01:56:26.600 --> 01:56:30.050 coming up in the next month to focus really on the zoning 01:56:30.050 --> 01:56:33.180 map and how that relates to the new lineup of zoning 01:56:33.180 --> 01:56:36.960 districts, and the uses allowed. 01:56:36.960 --> 01:56:40.390 Show up to these if you can encourage friends and family to 01:56:40.390 --> 01:56:43.909 go there's night meetings day meetings full day workshops 01:56:43.909 --> 01:56:47.430 staff is going to be available for office hour discussions 01:56:47.430 --> 01:56:48.960 to talk about this. 01:56:48.960 --> 01:56:52.260 Just get the word out we're collecting any and all comments 01:56:52.260 --> 01:56:52.960 on this. 01:56:52.960 --> 01:57:02.960 We've got concerns on the zoning map. 01:57:02.960 --> 01:57:06.810 So we didn't put his email up there but that's when we talk 01:57:06.810 --> 01:57:10.579 to the public about that will say email comments to PZ at 01:57:10.579 --> 01:57:12.960 city of Denton.com. 01:57:12.960 --> 01:57:27.960 Yeah. 01:57:27.960 --> 01:57:34.470 You'll get a lot of feedback on the zoning map. Once it's, 01:57:34.470 --> 01:57:36.909 and that's why we drafted it this way. If you start if you 01:57:36.909 --> 01:57:38.960 start out of the gate with a new zoning map. 01:57:38.960 --> 01:57:42.600 You won't get to the end. So, here's the new districts 01:57:42.600 --> 01:57:46.239 conceptually here's the uses a lather. Okay, we're fine 01:57:46.239 --> 01:57:50.270 with that now here's the map that's when you apply the new 01:57:50.270 --> 01:57:50.960 code. 01:57:50.960 --> 01:57:57.960 Yeah, yeah. 01:57:57.960 --> 01:58:10.960 The eight of us. 01:58:10.960 --> 01:58:23.960 First phone call the first phone call I think for the city. 01:58:23.960 --> 01:58:26.960 Otherwise, she didn't care. 01:58:26.960 --> 01:58:33.960 I tried talking to her about it. 01:58:33.960 --> 01:58:39.130 Well, thanks, y'all. We're putting the lion's share of work 01:58:39.130 --> 01:58:41.390 on this committee. And so I appreciate everything you're 01:58:41.390 --> 01:58:41.960 doing in the background when we're not here. 01:58:41.960 --> 01:58:44.960 It's going to result in a better consolidated draft for us. 01:58:44.960 --> 01:58:46.960 So, appreciate your time. 01:58:46.960 --> 01:58:49.960 Thank you. 01:58:49.960 --> 01:58:58.199 That is, you'll get an electronic link, but that is a 01:58:58.199 --> 01:59:04.960 document as we walk through each of these sub chapters. 01:59:04.960 --> 01:59:05.600 This is a reference tool between the two. So, those links 01:59:05.600 --> 01:59:06.260 will take you electronically to both versions of the code. 01:59:06.260 --> 01:59:07.600 So, if you're looking at a particular section and you want 01:59:07.600 --> 01:59:12.960 to see where that's that cross reference. 01:59:12.960 --> 01:59:20.960 Anything else that I need to do. 01:59:20.960 --> 01:59:24.960 We don't have a couch in city hall. 01:59:24.960 --> 01:59:27.949 I guess, technically we adjourned 15 minutes ago when we 01:59:27.949 --> 01:59:28.960 lost the quorum. 01:59:28.960 --> 01:59:31.960 Yeah, yeah. 01:59:31.960 --> 01:59:33.960 Yeah, so we're good. 01:59:33.960 --> 01:59:35.960 Was that 1045. 01:59:35.960 --> 01:59:39.960 Thank you all very, very much. 01:59:39.960 --> 01:59:41.560 >> Yes, sir. 01:59:41.560 --> 01:59:42.060 >> Okay.