1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,089 >> Are missing two of the members, we're missing one of the 2 00:00:03,089 --> 00:00:04,320 council members. 3 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,480 So on the agenda we have considered an appointment for 4 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:10,080 chair and vice chair. 5 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:15,039 And I'm recommending that perhaps we table that and John, 6 00:00:15,039 --> 00:00:17,629 if you're willing to serve as chair today just to run the 7 00:00:17,629 --> 00:00:18,280 meeting. 8 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:23,120 We could just do that as just a point of order. 9 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,160 And ultimately we'll wait on the meeting minutes as well 10 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:27,359 and 11 00:00:27,359 --> 00:00:30,809 then we can talk a little further about our time discussion 12 00:00:30,809 --> 00:00:31,079 . 13 00:00:31,079 --> 00:00:34,200 I'm gonna try to do that via do the poll and 14 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,439 hopefully that will kind of narrow down the focus of where 15 00:00:38,439 --> 00:00:39,920 everybody's at on both. 16 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,200 If you've had an opportunity to see the do the poll yet or 17 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,320 if you've seen the poll before, pardon me? 18 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:46,679 >> I've already did it last night. 19 00:00:46,679 --> 00:00:51,000 >> Okay, so you must have been the other response. 20 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,560 >> Well, you should be able to see it. 21 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,840 You should be able to see everybody's availability and 22 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,039 then I'll narrow that down to time windows. 23 00:00:58,039 --> 00:01:00,600 So we'll try to get the best days. 24 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,600 So whatever day or days that we end up with and 25 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,540 then narrow it down to the time windows to see what those 26 00:01:07,540 --> 00:01:09,000 might look like. 27 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,519 At least then we don't have to try to compare calendar 28 00:01:11,519 --> 00:01:11,920 sitting here and 29 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,680 working through that. 30 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,239 So that may take another week to do just based on what 31 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:18,040 responses we get. 32 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,379 I'll set up a meeting for next week if you're good with 33 00:01:21,379 --> 00:01:21,719 that. 34 00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:26,079 So we can just kind of keep proceeding through this. 35 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:31,310 The other piece to that would be the minutes is that we'll 36 00:01:31,310 --> 00:01:33,959 just kind of preserve. 37 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,560 Well, I guess we can work through the minutes or 38 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,079 we can leave the minutes for the next week. 39 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:41,680 So kind of the complete committee or hopefully the complete 40 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:42,120 committee can kind 41 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,299 of get this into a regular process and not be as bumpy as 42 00:01:45,299 --> 00:01:46,519 what we've been. 43 00:01:46,519 --> 00:01:50,280 So I apologize for that for any number of reasons of why we 44 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:51,480 're here today and 45 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,959 the condition that we are going forward. 46 00:01:54,959 --> 00:01:59,200 Most importantly, I think that Clarion being in town is the 47 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:00,200 ability for 48 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,239 you as committee members to truly be able to get into 49 00:02:04,239 --> 00:02:05,079 whatever it is that you'd 50 00:02:05,079 --> 00:02:06,680 like to get into as far as specifics. 51 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,610 They have a presentation that they put on for council last 52 00:02:12,610 --> 00:02:13,080 night. 53 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,560 They're gonna put it on for PNZ today. 54 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:20,960 I asked them to skip the presentation as far as the in 55 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:22,240 depth because you will see 56 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,400 it this evening rather than just to hit the high points of 57 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:26,919 what those 58 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,639 significant changes are and then that way you can kind of 59 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:31,400 be able to just get 60 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,039 into the material a little bit more. 61 00:02:33,039 --> 00:02:34,800 I think they're gonna give a little context so 62 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,400 at least it makes sense as to where it is and we talked 63 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,360 about this yesterday at Lane. 64 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,280 So I think that they have a good handle on that. 65 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,960 Any direction or questions for me? 66 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:46,599 Anything that you'd like for me to do? 67 00:02:50,599 --> 00:02:53,439 With that being said, I'll just bring you to the meeting 68 00:02:53,439 --> 00:02:54,280 and 69 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,909 ultimately Clarion has got the presentation prepared for 70 00:02:56,909 --> 00:02:57,280 you. 71 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,229 >> Okay, since we've tabled items A and B, we'll move on to 72 00:03:01,229 --> 00:03:01,639 C. 73 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,439 Hold the discussion, provide staff with direction regarding 74 00:03:05,439 --> 00:03:07,479 meeting frequency. 75 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:12,479 I think we've kind of already discussed that on that poll. 76 00:03:12,479 --> 00:03:17,960 So unless there's additional comment on that, we'll move on 77 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,000 to item D, 78 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,800 which is hold the discussion regarding the purpose and 79 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,479 reporting guidelines for the committee. 80 00:03:27,599 --> 00:03:30,439 >> Okay, with that being said, what the intent of first, I 81 00:03:30,439 --> 00:03:31,520 think what might work 82 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,719 best is we'll work through this, we'll capture minutes, 83 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:35,319 what it is that the 84 00:03:35,319 --> 00:03:38,960 committee is recommending, suggesting thoughts, ideas, and 85 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:40,719 staff will report 86 00:03:40,719 --> 00:03:46,099 to, respectively to council as well as to PNZ in a weekly 87 00:03:46,099 --> 00:03:47,199 update. 88 00:03:47,199 --> 00:03:50,280 So we'll provide those updates, give that comment and 89 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:55,759 feedback of our progress where we've made it to. 90 00:03:55,759 --> 00:03:59,759 So for example, today if we were working on sub-chapter one 91 00:03:59,759 --> 00:03:59,960 , 92 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:02,759 we talked about sub-chapter one. 93 00:04:02,759 --> 00:04:05,039 These were the recommendations of the committee or 94 00:04:05,039 --> 00:04:07,240 suggestions of the committee meeting. 95 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:08,400 It's good as written. 96 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,560 There's some suggestions to re-review or look at these 97 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:13,479 components. 98 00:04:13,479 --> 00:04:16,240 We're also soliciting public input and feedback, so 99 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:17,879 we may not be complete with what it is. 100 00:04:17,879 --> 00:04:21,800 But at least rather than having to rehash the entire sub-ch 101 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,360 apter one with council and 102 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,160 or commission that we're able to give a higher level update 103 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:27,639 and 104 00:04:27,639 --> 00:04:29,439 really what the committee's thoughts and ideas and 105 00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:31,040 direction is for 106 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:32,720 staff to be able to continue that work. 107 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,579 I'm not sure if there's any other thoughts or ideas with 108 00:04:36,579 --> 00:04:37,199 that. 109 00:04:37,199 --> 00:04:41,970 >> Yeah, I guess my question is as far as updating as we go 110 00:04:41,970 --> 00:04:42,279 , 111 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,680 what is the timeframe on that? 112 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,259 Because we've talked about keeping, pretty much keeping the 113 00:04:49,259 --> 00:04:51,279 new code as an electronic document. 114 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,990 Is that just gonna look like notes on there or is it gonna 115 00:04:54,990 --> 00:04:57,000 be the actual rewrite? 116 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:03,079 I'd use as an example the R4 that's come in isn't in 117 00:05:03,079 --> 00:05:05,040 sections of it. 118 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,040 So if we wanted to make some changes on something so we can 119 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,319 see what that change is and 120 00:05:11,319 --> 00:05:14,079 then kind of revisit to make sure that that change was 121 00:05:14,079 --> 00:05:14,680 proper. 122 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,000 >> And I'm gonna let Clarion answer that. 123 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,360 I just have one caveat that I'm gonna add in addition to 124 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:19,800 that. 125 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:25,120 So we're gonna attempt to work off of a one drive document 126 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,560 like we have to the past where 127 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,480 it is staff provided feedback to you. 128 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,560 So if we have changes that we're suggesting that we can all 129 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,160 work off of a single document, 130 00:05:35,879 --> 00:05:38,339 I'm verifying with IT that we're gonna be capable of doing 131 00:05:38,339 --> 00:05:40,759 that with those that do not have 132 00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:43,860 a city email address or if we can set up a city email 133 00:05:43,860 --> 00:05:45,319 address to do that. 134 00:05:45,319 --> 00:05:48,259 So that we have a single document rather than do a drop box 135 00:05:48,259 --> 00:05:48,519 . 136 00:05:48,519 --> 00:05:51,439 And then we can go back to how you traditionally do when 137 00:05:51,439 --> 00:05:53,240 kind of the time frame we need to 138 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:54,199 compile. 139 00:05:54,199 --> 00:05:57,449 >> So with each of the three parts that have been drafted 140 00:05:57,449 --> 00:05:59,319 for the district's uses piece 141 00:05:59,319 --> 00:06:02,430 and the procedures and now finding this module three, the 142 00:06:02,430 --> 00:06:04,160 development students piece, 143 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,819 we've been getting feedback continuously both from the 144 00:06:07,819 --> 00:06:09,519 public and from staff. 145 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:12,399 We don't make changes to those drafts until the 146 00:06:12,399 --> 00:06:15,000 consolidated draft which is coming next. 147 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,009 When we knit all three pieces together into a single 148 00:06:18,009 --> 00:06:19,360 document, that's when you're gonna 149 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,120 see most of the changes. 150 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,269 And we will note in there specifically, here's how it's 151 00:06:25,269 --> 00:06:27,399 different from your current code 152 00:06:27,399 --> 00:06:29,160 like we've done with each piece. 153 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,129 But also here's a change that was made since module one or 154 00:06:33,129 --> 00:06:34,639 since module two. 155 00:06:34,639 --> 00:06:37,439 This is a change that is proposed with the consolidated 156 00:06:37,439 --> 00:06:38,000 draft. 157 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,120 So that's how you'll track it. 158 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,120 This R4 piece is a little bit unique. 159 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:43,879 We don't traditionally do that. 160 00:06:43,879 --> 00:06:48,829 We don't continue to update the code as we go because you 161 00:06:48,829 --> 00:06:50,120 would never get to the end 162 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:51,360 if you did that. 163 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,120 So this is treated as an addendum. 164 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,100 The main purpose of that is to have a conversation with the 165 00:06:58,100 --> 00:07:00,639 community about the zoning map. 166 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:03,180 They wanted to have something in place that is closer to 167 00:07:03,180 --> 00:07:04,959 where we think the districts 168 00:07:04,959 --> 00:07:09,079 and uses will end up before adoption. 169 00:07:09,079 --> 00:07:12,560 So that's why that piece was streamlined. 170 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:17,160 >> How are the public comments being compiled? 171 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:22,360 Is that being assembled in some kind of a spreadsheet or? 172 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,360 >> Everything needs to go through staff. 173 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:26,360 >> Right. 174 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:27,360 >> They're the placeholder. 175 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:32,180 Even with this OneDrive concept, if comments are coming 176 00:07:32,180 --> 00:07:34,360 from council, they all need to 177 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,360 be vetted through staff before they make their way to us. 178 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,360 >> How are the public comments being vetted? 179 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,360 >> We've got comment cards that we've established. 180 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:44,360 >> Right. 181 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:45,360 >> So that is -- 182 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:46,360 >> Then what are you doing? 183 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,420 >> We then take that and take the comments and insert it 184 00:07:48,420 --> 00:07:49,360 into a spreadsheet. 185 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:50,360 >> Okay. 186 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:51,360 >> So we've got it all put into one spreadsheet. 187 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:52,360 >> And then you'll have like a response? 188 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:53,360 >> Correct. 189 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:54,360 >> As to where it is already in the code. 190 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:54,910 >> What we're doing with one group, we have similar 191 00:07:54,910 --> 00:07:55,360 comments in the grouping. 192 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:55,930 But we also are receiving emails, so it's not just the 193 00:07:55,930 --> 00:07:56,360 comment cards written. 194 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:57,079 So we're talking to someone where we're making sure we're 195 00:07:57,079 --> 00:07:57,360 taking notes. 196 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:57,959 But if phone call or walk-ins, public open houses, but if 197 00:07:57,959 --> 00:07:58,360 they want to submit through 198 00:07:58,360 --> 00:07:59,360 email or online, they can do that as well. 199 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:12,800 And we'll make sure to copy those and put that into the 200 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:18,360 same spreadsheet. 201 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,360 >> Where can we see this spreadsheet? 202 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:21,360 Is it online? 203 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:22,360 >> It's probably just in-house. 204 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:23,360 It's not online. 205 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:24,360 But we can provide that to you. 206 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:25,360 >> Okay. 207 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:26,360 >> We can share that. 208 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:27,360 We can share that as we go. 209 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:27,970 And the purpose in that is the spreadsheet is really to try 210 00:08:27,970 --> 00:08:28,360 to categorize where those 211 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:28,990 comments really belong or if they hit multiple sections and 212 00:08:28,990 --> 00:08:29,360 then distill those comments down. 213 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:30,360 Because somebody -- 214 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:31,360 >> Okay. 215 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:31,970 >> -- one person makes a comment isn't necessarily going to 216 00:08:31,970 --> 00:08:32,360 make a change in the code. 217 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:33,019 However, if we have 100 people saying the same thing, then 218 00:08:33,019 --> 00:08:33,360 we ultimately are going to 219 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:34,029 distill that down to the point of where it is that we make 220 00:08:34,029 --> 00:08:34,360 recommendations. 221 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:35,360 >> Okay. 222 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:36,360 >> So we're going to have to do that. 223 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:37,360 >> Okay. 224 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:38,360 >> So we're going to have to do that. 225 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:39,360 >> Okay. 226 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:40,360 >> So we're going to have to do that. 227 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:51,360 >> Okay. 228 00:08:51,360 --> 00:09:14,360 >> So we're going to have to do that. 229 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:22,360 >> Okay. 230 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:45,360 >> So we're going to have to do that. 231 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:55,360 >> Okay. 232 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:00,360 >> Okay. 233 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:01,360 >> Okay. 234 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:02,360 That's good. 235 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:03,360 Thanks. 236 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,639 >> So I guess a follow-up then would be since we're not 237 00:10:05,639 --> 00:10:07,159 going to get anything rewritten 238 00:10:07,159 --> 00:10:10,950 until we get to the final draft, is are we going to be 239 00:10:10,950 --> 00:10:14,440 looking at it from a 30,000-foot 240 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,470 level now and then we'll come back down to the ground and 241 00:10:17,470 --> 00:10:18,399 go back over? 242 00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:19,399 Detail or? 243 00:10:19,399 --> 00:10:20,399 >> You can do either. 244 00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:21,200 >> Well, I think overall we're going to be getting into the 245 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:21,399 weeds. 246 00:10:21,399 --> 00:10:22,399 >> Right. 247 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:23,399 >> We're going to get into the detail on this. 248 00:10:23,399 --> 00:10:23,889 The difference is I don't think as a committee you can 249 00:10:23,889 --> 00:10:24,399 probably make the best decisions without 250 00:10:24,399 --> 00:10:25,399 getting all of the public input. 251 00:10:25,399 --> 00:10:26,399 So how much public input are we going to receive? 252 00:10:26,399 --> 00:10:27,029 We may think collectively if we talk through something from 253 00:10:27,029 --> 00:10:27,399 our perspective that this is 254 00:10:27,399 --> 00:10:28,399 the best decision we can make. 255 00:10:28,399 --> 00:10:29,399 >> Okay. 256 00:10:29,399 --> 00:10:30,139 >> So I guess I'll just say that we're going to have to do 257 00:10:30,139 --> 00:10:30,399 that. 258 00:10:30,399 --> 00:10:31,399 >> Okay. 259 00:10:31,399 --> 00:10:32,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 260 00:10:32,399 --> 00:10:33,399 >> Okay. 261 00:10:33,399 --> 00:10:34,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 262 00:10:34,399 --> 00:10:35,399 >> Okay. 263 00:10:35,399 --> 00:10:36,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 264 00:10:36,399 --> 00:10:45,399 >> Okay. 265 00:10:45,399 --> 00:11:14,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 266 00:11:14,399 --> 00:11:15,399 >> Okay. 267 00:11:15,399 --> 00:11:16,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 268 00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:17,399 >> Okay. 269 00:11:17,399 --> 00:11:18,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 270 00:11:18,399 --> 00:11:19,399 >> Okay. 271 00:11:19,399 --> 00:11:20,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 272 00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:21,399 >> Okay. 273 00:11:21,399 --> 00:11:22,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 274 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:23,399 >> Okay. 275 00:11:23,399 --> 00:11:24,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 276 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:25,399 >> Okay. 277 00:11:25,399 --> 00:11:26,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 278 00:11:26,399 --> 00:11:27,399 >> Okay. 279 00:11:27,399 --> 00:11:28,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 280 00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:29,399 >> Okay. 281 00:11:29,399 --> 00:11:30,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 282 00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:31,399 >> Okay. 283 00:11:31,399 --> 00:11:32,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 284 00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:33,399 >> Okay. 285 00:11:33,399 --> 00:11:34,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 286 00:11:34,399 --> 00:11:35,399 >> Okay. 287 00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:36,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 288 00:11:36,399 --> 00:11:37,399 >> Okay. 289 00:11:37,399 --> 00:11:38,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 290 00:11:38,399 --> 00:11:45,399 >> Okay. 291 00:12:08,399 --> 00:12:09,399 >> Okay. 292 00:12:09,399 --> 00:12:10,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 293 00:12:10,399 --> 00:12:11,399 >> Okay. 294 00:12:11,399 --> 00:12:12,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 295 00:12:12,399 --> 00:12:13,399 >> Okay. 296 00:12:13,399 --> 00:12:14,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 297 00:12:14,399 --> 00:12:15,399 >> Okay. 298 00:12:15,399 --> 00:12:16,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 299 00:12:16,399 --> 00:12:17,399 >> Okay. 300 00:12:17,399 --> 00:12:18,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 301 00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:19,399 >> Okay. 302 00:12:19,399 --> 00:12:20,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 303 00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:21,399 >> Okay. 304 00:12:21,399 --> 00:12:22,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 305 00:12:22,399 --> 00:12:23,399 >> Okay. 306 00:12:23,399 --> 00:12:24,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 307 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:25,399 >> Okay. 308 00:12:25,399 --> 00:12:26,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 309 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:27,399 >> Okay. 310 00:12:27,399 --> 00:12:28,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 311 00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:29,399 >> Okay. 312 00:12:29,399 --> 00:12:30,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 313 00:12:30,399 --> 00:12:31,399 >> Okay. 314 00:12:31,399 --> 00:12:32,399 >> So we're going to have to do that. 315 00:12:32,399 --> 00:12:39,399 >> Okay. 316 00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:09,399 >> Okay. 317 00:13:32,399 --> 00:13:39,399 >> Okay. 318 00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:44,399 >> Okay. 319 00:13:44,399 --> 00:13:51,399 >> Okay. 320 00:13:51,399 --> 00:14:03,399 >> Okay. 321 00:14:03,399 --> 00:14:10,399 >> Okay. 322 00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:11,399 >> Okay. 323 00:14:11,399 --> 00:14:12,840 >> It's just a different process. 324 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,549 When we did the subchapter, the ESA, we did it bit by bit, 325 00:14:17,549 --> 00:14:20,039 and she showed the ones, the 326 00:14:20,039 --> 00:14:23,190 specific changes, because not everything is going to be 327 00:14:23,190 --> 00:14:24,360 changed, right? 328 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,549 So there was just changes that we went through, and then we 329 00:14:27,549 --> 00:14:29,519 worked on it for several, several 330 00:14:29,519 --> 00:14:33,009 meetings, and then that was the final draft, and that went 331 00:14:33,009 --> 00:14:34,039 to the public. 332 00:14:34,039 --> 00:14:36,830 Then the comments, then it came back, and so it wasn't, you 333 00:14:36,830 --> 00:14:38,440 know, living change, change, 334 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:39,440 change. 335 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,730 It was something that we went through, and then the public 336 00:14:41,730 --> 00:14:42,779 got, and then we got back 337 00:14:42,779 --> 00:14:45,480 again to look at the comments and then make changes there. 338 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:46,480 So it's just a different -- 339 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:47,480 >> I actually think it's a similar process. 340 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:48,480 >> Is it? 341 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:49,480 Okay. 342 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,330 >> He's saying it's a living document, but in our mind, you 343 00:14:53,330 --> 00:14:55,200 all are making comments on 344 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:56,200 it internally. 345 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:00,159 That feedback is going to come back to Clarion at some 346 00:15:00,159 --> 00:15:02,639 point as a one file, here are all 347 00:15:02,639 --> 00:15:06,909 of Denton's comments that we want you to address, and then 348 00:15:06,909 --> 00:15:09,639 we turn around another draft of the 349 00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:13,639 entire BBC, and that is what goes out to the public. 350 00:15:13,639 --> 00:15:16,639 >> As that's what we're proposing to adopt. 351 00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:17,639 >> Okay. 352 00:15:17,639 --> 00:15:21,259 >> So they'll have time to review the public document, the 353 00:15:21,259 --> 00:15:22,440 final changes. 354 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:23,440 Okay. 355 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:24,440 >> Yes. 356 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,960 It's just a matter of how is it we best get -- going to the 357 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,440 transparency piece, how do 358 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:29,440 we get this out to the public? 359 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,419 So we're giving them all of what we're proposing to do, so 360 00:15:32,419 --> 00:15:34,440 they get it in bite-sized pieces. 361 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,440 We're going to do the hard work. 362 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,440 We're going to -- and ultimately, we get that feedback. 363 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,000 Well, they may not understand the context of something 364 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,440 today as they make a comment, 365 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,440 but they're going to be able to understand it. 366 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,309 So if you looked at module two or module one, you didn't 367 00:15:50,309 --> 00:15:52,440 have module three, so can you get 368 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,440 the whole relationship, and then you can't. 369 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,440 So you're just looking at pieces and parts. 370 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,620 >> And is this still conceivably going to be completed this 371 00:16:01,620 --> 00:16:02,440 year? 372 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,000 The idea is to complete it this year where it's implemented 373 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,440 and developers can -- 374 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,440 >> Do you have the draft calendar? 375 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,440 >> I seem to remember September being -- 376 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,440 >> Yeah, so if we -- 377 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,440 >> Yeah, we are obviously -- 378 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,440 >> Everything has been drafted at least once. 379 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,789 There is a public draft of the third module that is 380 00:16:29,789 --> 00:16:32,440 supposed to come to the south. 381 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,720 So now we're going to -- we want to put together the clean 382 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,440 est consolidated draft that we can 383 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,080 based on all of the feedback that we've received to this 384 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,440 point and that we received up until 385 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:48,139 the end of April so that when everything is put together 386 00:16:48,139 --> 00:16:50,440 into one document, it represents 387 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,440 as much feedback as possible. 388 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,559 We're close, and we're talking about the next month when 389 00:16:57,559 --> 00:17:00,440 that document comes back and is 390 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,789 vetted for public review until you get it to the adoption 391 00:17:03,789 --> 00:17:04,440 phase. 392 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,559 So it is absolutely feasible that you're looking at late 393 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:10,440 summer, early fall. 394 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:11,440 >> Perfect. 395 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:12,440 Okay. 396 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:13,440 Okay. 397 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:20,059 Any other -- then we will move on to item E, receive a 398 00:17:20,059 --> 00:17:24,440 report, hold a discussion, provide 399 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:29,210 staff on the development code update to include the draft 400 00:17:29,210 --> 00:17:32,440 zoning map and receive a presentation 401 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:38,440 from Clarion regarding development module three. 402 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:44,589 >> So for a couple of you, you saw the presentation 403 00:17:44,589 --> 00:17:46,440 yesterday. 404 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,690 For the planning commissioners, you did not see that 405 00:17:48,690 --> 00:17:50,440 presentation yet, but you will tonight, 406 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,509 and we're going to skip over a lot of the stuff that's in 407 00:17:54,509 --> 00:17:56,440 here and just land on the 408 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:05,440 big focal points like Scott mentioned. 409 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,440 So thanks for your time today. 410 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,200 Just starting with the overall table of contents, this 411 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,440 third piece of the rewrite, the development 412 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:19,009 quality standards, there's a lot of information here, 413 00:18:19,009 --> 00:18:22,440 probably more to digest than the previous 414 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,440 modules, but a lot of important features here. 415 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:31,000 We have rolled in things like the ESA ordinance that was 416 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,440 just adopted. 417 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:33,440 We have reformatted it. 418 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,430 Still a little bit of cleanup necessary just to get the 419 00:18:36,430 --> 00:18:38,440 cross references right, but that 420 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,440 was carried forward. 421 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:45,869 We organized this chapter, this subchapter, from the ground 422 00:18:45,869 --> 00:18:46,440 up. 423 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,650 So beginning with things, how do we look at the site 424 00:18:49,650 --> 00:18:50,440 overall? 425 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,279 How do we capture grading and drainage and piped 426 00:18:55,279 --> 00:18:57,440 infrastructure? 427 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,200 How do we think about the landscaping after that before we 428 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,440 even get to the building design? 429 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,200 And then what happens after the building design when we 430 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,440 think about the parking and exterior 431 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,440 lighting and electric standards? 432 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,440 So all of that is in this third and final piece. 433 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,529 We're not going to talk about each of those in terms of the 434 00:19:17,529 --> 00:19:19,440 formal presentation. 435 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,009 Certainly it's all on the table for discussion with this 436 00:19:23,009 --> 00:19:24,440 group especially. 437 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,440 So we'll take any questions that you have. 438 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,809 What I'm going to do for this presentation is just skip 439 00:19:30,809 --> 00:19:33,440 ahead to the summary of changes 440 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,269 in some of the big ones like landscaping, parking, building 441 00:19:38,269 --> 00:19:40,440 design, and lighting. 442 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,440 And then we'll just sit down and have a discussion. 443 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,740 We can walk through subchapter six, the development 444 00:19:45,740 --> 00:19:46,440 standards. 445 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,440 We can talk about subdivision. 446 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,400 If you have questions that are unrelated to this module 447 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,440 three, that's fine too. 448 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,440 Your committee is charged with providing that level of 449 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,440 feedback through all of the different parts of the code. 450 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,440 So let's dive right in. 451 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,440 I'm going to skip through some of the fun pictures. 452 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,440 Landscaping, screening, buffering, and fences. 453 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,440 A lot of changes here. 454 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,150 First and foremost, and you'll see this throughout the 455 00:20:16,150 --> 00:20:17,440 development standards, 456 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,579 is that there's a lot more wiggle room given to staff at 457 00:20:21,579 --> 00:20:23,440 the director level. 458 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,799 There are procedures for alternative compliance to allow 459 00:20:28,799 --> 00:20:31,440 you to propose something different, 460 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,529 still meeting the intent of the code, but giving you a 461 00:20:34,529 --> 00:20:38,440 little bit of flexibility due to site conditions 462 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,869 or because Denton has so much opportunity for infill and 463 00:20:42,869 --> 00:20:44,440 redevelopment. 464 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,240 This is particularly important in landscaping, and we've 465 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:48,440 heard a lot about issues. 466 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,440 Well, you're requiring street trees. 467 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,829 Well, the utility lines are in the only area where I could 468 00:20:53,829 --> 00:20:55,440 provide street trees. 469 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,440 So how am I supposed to do that? 470 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,440 Yeah, that makes sense. 471 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,400 That's just good common sense development, and staff wants 472 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,440 to be able to work with those conditions 473 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:11,440 and find a solution that works for everybody. 474 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:24,440 Sure. 475 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:25,440 Wildflowers? 476 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:26,440 Yes. 477 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:27,440 Oh, sure. 478 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,920 Yeah, there's nothing that would prohibit that type of 479 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:30,440 thing. 480 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,869 I think you'd have to -- there's a fine line between weeds 481 00:21:34,869 --> 00:21:36,440 and wildflowers, 482 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,180 but that's a good enforcement question, and your nuisance 483 00:21:39,180 --> 00:21:41,440 team might have something to say about that. 484 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,829 But generally, in the code part of this, there's nothing 485 00:21:44,829 --> 00:21:51,440 that would prohibit you from doing something like that. 486 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,440 Simplified the buffering standards. 487 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,440 This is pretty new. 488 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,440 Right now, you do have buffering standards. 489 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,369 You recognize that there are challenges with some types of 490 00:22:03,369 --> 00:22:06,440 land uses adjacent to less intense land uses. 491 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,740 And the bigger the difference in those land use types, the 492 00:22:10,740 --> 00:22:14,440 greatest example is single-family residential 493 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:19,240 next to higher-intensity non-residential uses -- commercial 494 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:20,440 , industrial. 495 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,440 How do we treat those transitions? 496 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,440 Well, we can do that through buffers. 497 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:29,440 Certain incompatible uses require more points. 498 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,440 We're moving to a point-based system for buffering. 499 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:33,440 Larry. 500 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:34,440 Yeah. 501 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,440 Who benefits from the points? 502 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,599 I'm not sure I fully understand who benefits from the point 503 00:22:40,599 --> 00:22:41,440 system. 504 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,940 Do the developers get this for later down the road and what 505 00:22:45,940 --> 00:22:48,440 they can and can't do with mitigation? 506 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:49,440 I'm sorry. 507 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,480 I just -- and if it's going to be too elaborate, we can 508 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:52,440 deal with it later. 509 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,440 But I was -- I didn't understand the point system. 510 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:56,440 Let's jump right in. 511 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:00,539 So a lot of communities use -- this is basically a 512 00:23:00,539 --> 00:23:04,440 performance-based zoning tool where instead of having a 513 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,240 black-and-white regulation that says, here is how you shall 514 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,440 do development, you can say, there are probably 515 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,799 a lot of good ways to address the issue, which is incompat 516 00:23:15,799 --> 00:23:19,440 ible land uses and how do we buffer between those. 517 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,680 You as a development community probably have a lot of good 518 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,440 ideas for how you might treat that scenario. 519 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,440 We're not going to limit you. 520 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,519 What we're going to do is say we still have a minimum bar 521 00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:32,440 that needs to be set, which is the base point system. 522 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,440 You need more points, the more incompatibility there is. 523 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,440 But we're not going to tell you exactly how to get there. 524 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,440 If you want to build a wall, that will get you more points. 525 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:42,440 Okay. 526 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,049 If you want to have a wider buffer, that gets you more 527 00:23:44,049 --> 00:23:44,440 points. 528 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:45,440 Maybe I didn't make myself clear. 529 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,660 What it seemed like it was saying is, yeah, we were still 530 00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:51,440 specifying what they need, what's allowed. 531 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:52,440 Yeah. 532 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,440 We were giving them points for it, and I don't understand. 533 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,440 Well, we're not awarding points. 534 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,440 I should be clear on that. 535 00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:59,440 Okay. 536 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:00,440 Points are not awarded. 537 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,690 You have to earn a certain number of points to meet the 538 00:24:04,690 --> 00:24:05,440 code. 539 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,329 So if you are industrial next to single-family use, you 540 00:24:09,329 --> 00:24:12,440 need to earn 50 points of buffering. 541 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:13,440 All right. 542 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,029 And you can earn those points through lots of different 543 00:24:15,029 --> 00:24:15,440 methods. 544 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,440 I thought it was something they could cash in later. 545 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,730 No, you cannot collect your chips and use them for other 546 00:24:20,730 --> 00:24:21,440 things. 547 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:22,440 Gotcha. 548 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,440 All right. 549 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:24,440 Thanks. 550 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,880 And we will have a specific table of what equals certain 551 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:27,440 points? 552 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:28,440 Yes. 553 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,440 Turn to page 55 in module three. 554 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:32,440 Yeah. 555 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:38,440 So you can see how this works. 556 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,440 You need 50 points. 557 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,500 I mentioned the single-family residential adjacent to 558 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:47,440 industrial, and I know, Ms. Braggs, 559 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,690 you brought up yesterday, we're not even going to approve 560 00:24:49,690 --> 00:24:50,440 that scenario. 561 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,440 You might have some of that on the ground now. 562 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,859 And so to get those points, you're going to see very 563 00:24:54,859 --> 00:24:57,440 quickly, you need to use a lot more 564 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,440 of those buffering options to hit that 50 points. 565 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,440 There's no one thing in that table that gets you there. 566 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,440 So you have to use a combination at that point. 567 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,440 Street trees, shrubs, are you finding it? 568 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:10,440 On page 55? 569 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,440 Yeah, 54 and 55, I think. 570 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:14,440 55, 56. 571 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,440 Okay. 572 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,440 6.7.4. 573 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,440 Yeah. 574 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:18,440 Yes. 575 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:19,440 Okay. 576 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,440 Where is it showing they have to have a total number? 577 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,059 So the first table, which you're looking at actually, shows 578 00:25:28,059 --> 00:25:31,440 the developing uses in that 579 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,440 first column. 580 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,440 So that's what's being proposed. 581 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,710 If you're proposing that developing use, now you look 582 00:25:39,710 --> 00:25:42,440 across that top row, what is adjacent 583 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:43,440 to me? 584 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,619 And then you find the cell that says, here's how many 585 00:25:45,619 --> 00:25:46,440 points you need. 586 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,990 Then the following table, the shorter table on the opposite 587 00:25:48,990 --> 00:25:50,440 page says, here are some options 588 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:51,440 for earning points. 589 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:52,440 Got it. 590 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,680 And I might also add, I think it is safe to say, this is 591 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,440 definitely not less restrictive. 592 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,440 I don't want to say that it's more restrictive. 593 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,440 I want to say that it's designed to build a better event. 594 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,009 So we know the importance of buffering and landscaping, and 595 00:26:14,009 --> 00:26:15,440 we're trying to promote that. 596 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,440 We're just trying to provide the flexibility in doing it. 597 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,960 But it certainly isn't less restrictive than what we have 598 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:21,440 today. 599 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:22,440 It just gives them more choice. 600 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:23,440 It's just smarter. 601 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:24,440 Okay. 602 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,759 It'll be more appropriate, especially when we talk about 603 00:26:27,759 --> 00:26:29,440 the infill development. 604 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,440 I have a question on the--I'm sorry. 605 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:33,440 Oh, go ahead. 606 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,440 So how does this--will this correlate with the tree code? 607 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,440 Because I do see trees here as an option. 608 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,640 Would those kind of be added extra if they were doing 609 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,440 development and they had to reach 610 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,440 a certain amount, or would it be counted towards? 611 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:53,640 I mean, are you--is this an extra addition, or is it going 612 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,440 to be allowed for their credits? 613 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,440 Yes, it'll be allowed for their credits in the landscaping, 614 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:02,440 not going to take away from 615 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,440 the tree code. 616 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,529 And that's where I was trying to explain how complicated 617 00:27:07,529 --> 00:27:09,440 the tree code is and how it is 618 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,440 that we have to look at other means for canopy. 619 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,509 So when we talk about parking lot standards, we're going to 620 00:27:14,509 --> 00:27:15,440 talk about trees and increasing 621 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,299 tree and tree canopy, which also may count towards their 622 00:27:19,299 --> 00:27:20,440 landscaping, not necessarily 623 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,440 towards their buffering. 624 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,480 So there'll be credits given because if you add more trees 625 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,440 by requirement, it isn't necessarily 626 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,049 going to add to what the buffering requirements are, if 627 00:27:33,049 --> 00:27:34,440 that makes sense. 628 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,440 Unless you have a more open-ended way of putting it. 629 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,440 No, I think that's right. 630 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:39,440 You can double count things. 631 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,690 If I've got trees on the site, whether I'm using them in 632 00:27:42,690 --> 00:27:44,440 the buffer or for my general 633 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,440 tree requirement, those trees count. 634 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,440 And the same goes for parking lot landscaping. 635 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,160 If you are requiring me in the parking section to provide 636 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,440 landscaping in the parking lot, 637 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,440 that also counts towards your minimum landscaping required 638 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,440 because it's all part of your site. 639 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,440 But if it's still required, it's not going to... 640 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:05,440 It's still required. 641 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,690 Because you're preserving a patch of trees and, say, the 642 00:28:07,690 --> 00:28:08,440 back of the site, you're still 643 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:09,440 going to be required to have them. 644 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:10,440 Correct. 645 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:11,440 You're going to have both. 646 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,440 You're going to have both more. 647 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:13,440 Increasing the canopy. 648 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:19,609 Digging into the weeds just a little bit on the table of 649 00:28:19,609 --> 00:28:23,440 the buffer elements, do we have 650 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,440 a definition of ornamental versus large tree? 651 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,769 And if so, on ornamental, I would imagine that three-inch 652 00:28:31,769 --> 00:28:33,440 is probably going to be very 653 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,650 difficult to get three-inch caliper ornamental because I 654 00:28:36,650 --> 00:28:38,440 think of that as a desert willow 655 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:43,440 or your understory trees, that's almost their maximum size. 656 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,500 And that's another part of the tree code that we're working 657 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:50,440 through is those defining caliper 658 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,589 and how we're measuring tree, whether it's tree DBH or if 659 00:28:54,589 --> 00:28:57,440 we're talking about the canopy 660 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,440 and several different elements to doing that. 661 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,220 And so with that, that is where some of these will come in 662 00:29:06,220 --> 00:29:08,440 like the certain types of trees 663 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,099 that would qualify because there are some currently like a 664 00:29:11,099 --> 00:29:12,440 crape myrtle is considered 665 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,440 a tree, which it's not. 666 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,759 It doesn't actually have the exact benefits that a tree 667 00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:19,440 would, a regular tree. 668 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:20,440 Different tree. 669 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:21,440 Right. 670 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,440 And then it'll all be addressed in the tree code. 671 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:25,440 Okay. 672 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,440 But then that will reference back here. 673 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,220 I mean, they'll kind of go hand in hand with what's allowed 674 00:29:31,220 --> 00:29:31,440 . 675 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:32,440 Okay. 676 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,470 And then I think as part of that, the criteria manual, it 677 00:29:35,470 --> 00:29:37,440 'll give you that sort of breakdown 678 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,440 of tree type or designation of trees. 679 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,730 It was my understanding too, if I may, that the tree code 680 00:29:45,730 --> 00:29:48,440 was going to fall from canopy 681 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,440 rather than diameter. 682 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,549 Has that changed or do we, I know the state did some things 683 00:29:53,549 --> 00:29:55,440 to us that kind of tied our 684 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,440 hands, but is that still there? 685 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,440 That's where the draft is at. 686 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:01,440 Okay. 687 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:02,440 Is with tree canopy. 688 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:03,440 Okay. 689 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,730 And again, we're just looking at other opportunities to 690 00:30:05,730 --> 00:30:07,440 improve tree canopy where the tree code 691 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,869 doesn't address that meaning in landscaping and parking 692 00:30:10,869 --> 00:30:11,440 lots. 693 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:12,440 Okay. 694 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:13,440 Okay. 695 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:14,440 Good. 696 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:15,440 Thanks. 697 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,079 But yeah, generally the trees that are regulated through 698 00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:21,759 the tree code and through the appropriate 699 00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:25,779 species list that is retained on file with staff, that all 700 00:30:25,779 --> 00:30:28,240 applies to buffer and landscaping 701 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,440 standards as well. 702 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,440 Same trees. 703 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,039 Okay. 704 00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:38,349 Other questions about this, about the, just the point-based 705 00:30:38,349 --> 00:30:39,640 buffer system? 706 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:40,640 I think this is good. 707 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,390 We should be getting into this level of dialogue before we 708 00:30:43,390 --> 00:30:44,960 just move on to other topics. 709 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,869 This will probably be where you get a lot from the public 710 00:30:47,869 --> 00:30:49,440 tonight too, I suspect. 711 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:50,440 Yeah. 712 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:51,440 Yeah. 713 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:52,440 So be prepared. 714 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:53,440 Well, yeah. 715 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,509 And questions are going to come up about trees and tree 716 00:30:55,509 --> 00:30:57,000 code and we can do a little bit through 717 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,720 the development code. 718 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,789 Some of that is just fluid right now and so we'll be 719 00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:03,920 prepared. 720 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,400 Okay. 721 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,960 All right. 722 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,480 Another important change and feature of this revised 723 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,000 landscaping screening buffering is 724 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,480 LID, and low impact development practices. 725 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,279 A lot of these are green infrastructure options that talk 726 00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:24,720 about instead of putting water into 727 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,819 pipes underneath the ground or draining directly onto imper 728 00:31:27,819 --> 00:31:29,799 vious surfaces, how can we actually 729 00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:33,319 treat water as it moves across a site? 730 00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:37,809 Through rain gardens, through bioretention facilities, 731 00:31:37,809 --> 00:31:40,759 through swales even, through porous 732 00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:45,170 pavers which you currently allow as a replacement for some 733 00:31:45,170 --> 00:31:46,079 parking. 734 00:31:46,079 --> 00:31:50,150 Those types of things actually are better than providing 735 00:31:50,150 --> 00:31:52,440 big concrete pipes underneath 736 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,960 the ground and can be cheaper. 737 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,289 So rather than mandating that approach, we have listed this 738 00:31:58,289 --> 00:31:59,759 as an option that could be 739 00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:03,559 considered for developers that would like to do this. 740 00:32:03,559 --> 00:32:06,539 I think what you might see in the consolidated draft is 741 00:32:06,539 --> 00:32:08,559 more of an incentive to do that type 742 00:32:08,559 --> 00:32:13,529 of development because just improving the water quality and 743 00:32:13,529 --> 00:32:15,640 reducing runoff is a good 744 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,839 thing for development. 745 00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:21,599 And so we have included them as options. 746 00:32:21,599 --> 00:32:24,059 So I'd encourage you to look through those and let us know 747 00:32:24,059 --> 00:32:25,160 if there are others. 748 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,740 This requires a lot of coordination with Public Works, with 749 00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:30,720 engineering, just to make sure 750 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,349 that they have best management practices to accommodate 751 00:32:33,349 --> 00:32:34,960 these types of features, and they 752 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,079 do, and making sure that we reference those materials 753 00:32:38,079 --> 00:32:39,119 accordingly. 754 00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:43,170 The incentive being that it would be cheaper for the 755 00:32:43,170 --> 00:32:46,000 developer to do the LID practice as 756 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,960 opposed to digging a ditch and putting a pipe in the ground 757 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,960 to remove water, right? 758 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,859 Yeah, it's actually better for the treatment of water, and 759 00:32:55,859 --> 00:32:57,640 a lot of these features are 760 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,799 actually very nice, aesthetically pleasing features. 761 00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:01,799 Agreed. 762 00:33:01,799 --> 00:33:05,170 There could be other incentives too for the developer, not 763 00:33:05,170 --> 00:33:06,799 only the cost savings, but 764 00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:09,900 maybe if you do a bioswale, maybe that counts as a higher 765 00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:11,799 percentage for the landscaping 766 00:33:11,799 --> 00:33:12,799 requirements. 767 00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:17,839 So there's different tools that you can use in the code to 768 00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:19,799 say, "Maybe I don't want to 769 00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:24,500 do a bioswale, but it makes more sense for me to do that, 770 00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:26,799 because if I do that, then 771 00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:30,190 I don't have to do something else that maybe wouldn't have 772 00:33:30,190 --> 00:33:31,799 to be done in the past." 773 00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:35,079 So on that, I know that the Committee on the Environment, 774 00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:36,799 we passed a resolution, and we 775 00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:39,799 discussed it recently, like the razor ranch out here. 776 00:33:39,799 --> 00:33:43,930 A lot was developed under I-SWIM, and that we had a 777 00:33:43,930 --> 00:33:46,799 discussion that we would like for 778 00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:48,799 that to be in the code. 779 00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:51,670 I know here it's referred to low-impact development, but I 780 00:33:51,670 --> 00:33:53,799 think that's kind of the same thing. 781 00:33:53,799 --> 00:33:56,799 So will we be making reference to that? 782 00:33:56,799 --> 00:34:01,359 Because I know that in the Committee, we would like for 783 00:34:01,359 --> 00:34:03,799 that to be done on commercial property 784 00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:05,799 more often than not. 785 00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:10,250 We actually did reference I-SWIM in the purpose statement 786 00:34:10,250 --> 00:34:12,800 for these LID principles for low-impact 787 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,800 development, recognizing the work that's already been done. 788 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,800 That's a big deal that you should celebrate. 789 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,820 Denton's an I-SWIM community, and by gosh, we're going to 790 00:34:21,820 --> 00:34:23,800 start requiring this stuff 791 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,800 at some point, and we want it to be this way. 792 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,329 They've received what Council had just passed as far as ESA 793 00:34:31,329 --> 00:34:32,800 , so they've just received that 794 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,699 information the last couple of weeks, and of course, 795 00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:38,800 incorporating it in this. 796 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,119 The I-SWIM, we had different discussions on it a while back 797 00:34:42,119 --> 00:34:43,800 , too, but anybody that's 798 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,969 driven the razor ranch property on the site can see what a 799 00:34:48,969 --> 00:34:51,800 benefit that is to the area. 800 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,800 Where is that referenced? 801 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,690 It's actually on page 61, where we talk about site design 802 00:34:57,690 --> 00:34:59,800 for low-impact development. 803 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,300 The last sentence of that purpose statement, and we've got 804 00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:04,800 a footnote saying Denton is 805 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,800 silver certified in I-SWIM, and this is something. 806 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,210 Beyond that technical aspect of it, two years ago when we 807 00:35:12,210 --> 00:35:13,800 met with stakeholders, part of 808 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,369 the challenge with the current landscaping standards was, 809 00:35:17,369 --> 00:35:18,800 well, why don't we just take 810 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,800 what they did in razor ranch and put that into the code? 811 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:27,800 That was a big driver for what you see on the page here. 812 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:32,809 If that was referenced, too, in the updated drainage manual 813 00:35:32,809 --> 00:35:35,800 s that was just passed as well. 814 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,800 So that's the route. 815 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,800 So we're consistent. 816 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:40,800 Right. 817 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,119 We're working very hard, and this is just truly a smarter 818 00:35:45,119 --> 00:35:45,800 code. 819 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,769 It's simpler, but it's a smarter code, and it is that we 820 00:35:49,769 --> 00:35:51,800 had not only best practices, 821 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,360 but even trying to get us to contemporary practices, 822 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:55,800 because so many of the things that 823 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,320 we've done, we just kind of did because we've always done 824 00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:58,800 them. 825 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,820 And this really takes that, and Clarion has done a great 826 00:36:00,820 --> 00:36:01,800 job of integrating all of our 827 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,079 different components, all of our criteria and analysis, as 828 00:36:05,079 --> 00:36:06,800 well as the different chapters 829 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,800 that we're going to have included as part of the code. 830 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,800 Okay. 831 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,210 I should note, some communities require that you do LID to 832 00:36:19,210 --> 00:36:20,800 a certain extent. 833 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:21,800 Not a lot. 834 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,170 Most of them are still in the optional phase, which is how 835 00:36:25,170 --> 00:36:26,800 it's been drafted here. 836 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,800 But again, we'll work with staff. 837 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,030 We'll hear your opinions, too, on whether or not this 838 00:36:32,030 --> 00:36:33,800 should be a bigger incentive for 839 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,800 those to be achieved. 840 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,800 Has there been discussion of what the incentives might be? 841 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,800 Has that ongoing discussion been started? 842 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,079 I think one thing we had talked about was just getting more 843 00:36:48,079 --> 00:36:49,800 credit towards your required 844 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,050 landscaping, so saying maybe less landscaping percentage is 845 00:36:54,050 --> 00:36:55,800 required if you're going to 846 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,019 use these types of features, because you're doing the same 847 00:36:59,019 --> 00:37:00,800 type of treatment that a larger 848 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,800 landscaped area would provide for the site. 849 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,050 Is that something we're planning to put in the code, is 850 00:37:07,050 --> 00:37:08,800 what the incentives are? 851 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,800 Yeah, that's the question here today. 852 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,110 Right now, you have a little bit of that, just with your 853 00:37:15,110 --> 00:37:17,800 porous pavers, if you're exceeding 854 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,530 the maximum parking limit, you say, well, you can do that, 855 00:37:20,530 --> 00:37:21,800 but everything above that 856 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,800 point needs to be porous. 857 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,260 I'm not sure we're going to carry that forward, but there 858 00:37:27,260 --> 00:37:29,800 are other things you can do in your 859 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,789 parking lot, like putting a swale and cutting the curb to 860 00:37:33,789 --> 00:37:35,800 let the water drain through into 861 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,949 that swale rather than following the curb line out into the 862 00:37:39,949 --> 00:37:40,800 street. 863 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,800 There may be credits to your required parking for that. 864 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,670 If you could check with the Catherine Barnett from our 865 00:37:48,670 --> 00:37:50,800 environmental committee, because I 866 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,940 do believe that it was recommended that we, from this point 867 00:37:54,940 --> 00:37:56,800 as we were developing the 868 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,929 new code, at least require some part of that lot to be ice- 869 00:38:01,929 --> 00:38:02,800 born. 870 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:03,800 Okay. 871 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,800 It's a recommendation from the committee. 872 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:06,800 Great. 873 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,800 This is the opportunity then. 874 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,150 So if we can go back to that, if we can have the minutes 875 00:38:13,150 --> 00:38:15,800 pulled from that committee and 876 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,650 then pull them up to discuss here, maybe we can talk about 877 00:38:19,650 --> 00:38:20,800 incentives. 878 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,800 So from our recollection, that's where we wanted to go. 879 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:26,800 Okay. 880 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:27,800 That's helpful. 881 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:33,679 I see Scott jotting that down and Athena typing away, so we 882 00:38:33,679 --> 00:38:36,800 will not lose that thought. 883 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:37,800 Okay. 884 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:38,800 And I've got a concern. 885 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,559 This is more in the long-term of items, but on the street 886 00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:44,800 trees that we're requiring them 887 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,750 to be between the sidewalk and the street, because that is 888 00:38:49,750 --> 00:38:52,800 generally all right away easement 889 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,800 area and that's where utilities come back in. 890 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,929 When files came through town, we lost a lot of trees over 891 00:38:59,929 --> 00:39:01,800 the next couple of years because 892 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,800 they bored underneath them and the root system got torn up. 893 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,050 We say with any certain distance behind there as well that 894 00:39:09,050 --> 00:39:10,800 you don't end up losing those 895 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,139 trees over time because of it being right away that could 896 00:39:14,139 --> 00:39:15,800 potentially be disturbed and 897 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:16,800 dug up. 898 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,070 And that is the very reason we included that alternative 899 00:39:21,070 --> 00:39:23,639 landscaping provision in there 900 00:39:23,639 --> 00:39:26,400 to say there's a lot of that going on in Denton. 901 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,320 We heard that loud and clear. 902 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,099 You need to have the flexibility to put trees where they're 903 00:39:31,099 --> 00:39:32,760 going to survive, where they're 904 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:33,760 going to be most appropriate. 905 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:38,199 And I might add some other conversations that are taking 906 00:39:38,199 --> 00:39:40,760 place is how we look at our right 907 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,760 of ways and where it is those utilities are going. 908 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,469 So if we're going to have a divided street, then are we 909 00:39:47,469 --> 00:39:49,760 going to put those in the median 910 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,760 or are we going to put street trees in the median? 911 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,760 Are we going to use the outer lane to put utilities? 912 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,190 So then we have the ability to do street trees without 913 00:39:58,190 --> 00:40:00,760 having utilities within that, that 914 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,900 those utilities will be located in the drive line or in a 915 00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:05,760 median. 916 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,760 But those are generally the city's utilities. 917 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:15,760 I'm talking about the gas and Fios and those lines that are 918 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:15,760 ... 919 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,760 And we're looking at all of that. 920 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,030 So just having some more of those broader and a little 921 00:40:20,030 --> 00:40:20,760 longer term. 922 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,909 So how do we correct some of the sins of the past and kind 923 00:40:23,909 --> 00:40:25,760 of continue and what do we want 924 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,760 for aesthetics? 925 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,710 So when we look at the next transportation manual, that's 926 00:40:31,710 --> 00:40:33,760 going to be some more of those 927 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,090 conversations when we look at how it is that we design 928 00:40:37,090 --> 00:40:37,760 those. 929 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,030 It's really easy for the new stuff, for the green field 930 00:40:40,030 --> 00:40:40,760 development. 931 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,059 If we get it right here, then we're preventing that from 932 00:40:44,059 --> 00:40:45,760 happening in the future. 933 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,119 It's a lot more challenging for redevelopment and retrof 934 00:40:49,119 --> 00:40:49,760 itting. 935 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,630 But we think some of this will get you there because you're 936 00:40:53,630 --> 00:40:55,760 able to have some flexibility 937 00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:06,230 at the director level without having to lodge a big 938 00:41:06,230 --> 00:41:09,760 negotiation. 939 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:18,760 Other things we should talk about with landscaping. 940 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:24,449 And we can come back to it as well, certainly, but let's 941 00:41:24,449 --> 00:41:26,760 move into parking. 942 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,760 Are we skipping fences? 943 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,760 I didn't have any major changes on fencing. 944 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,880 I know you had asked about that yesterday, but no, let's 945 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,760 talk about fences now. 946 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,900 Well, I'll just say that I live in an older, more 947 00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:44,760 established neighborhood. 948 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,760 It's a mix of different types of fences. 949 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:54,139 There's a nice creek running through, so there's a lot of 950 00:41:54,139 --> 00:41:57,760 homes that have the creek to look out into. 951 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:05,179 Some people -- okay, so right now we require, from what I 952 00:42:05,179 --> 00:42:07,760 understand, a wood fence. 953 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,280 And so you have a lot of people building very cheap, not so 954 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,760 good wood fences that fall down 955 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,659 when there's a big gust of wind, and you have a lot of 956 00:42:16,659 --> 00:42:19,599 people getting cited for broken fences and things like that 957 00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:19,760 . 958 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,760 Right. 959 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,329 The request was that at some point chain link fences were 960 00:42:26,329 --> 00:42:29,760 just completely not allowed in neighborhood residential 961 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,760 anymore. 962 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,760 I think unless they have one, they can be grandfathered in. 963 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,619 I'm not sure if that's still the case or not, but I wanted 964 00:42:37,619 --> 00:42:39,760 to get clarification on that 965 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,320 and see what the options are for a homeowner that doesn't 966 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,760 want a wood fence, 967 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,219 but can't necessarily afford a full raw iron fence for the 968 00:42:51,219 --> 00:42:52,760 whole property. 969 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,760 Right. 970 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,760 Page 63. 971 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,760 I'll take those as -- 972 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,760 Yeah, I'm looking, but I see raw iron, masonry, brick. 973 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,760 Those are things that you can't really see through. 974 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,760 If you want to enjoy your backyard and enjoy the -- 975 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,760 That's a perimeter fence of a subdivision. 976 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,760 So that's a bigger deal. 977 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,469 That is the thing that's going to surround and most likely 978 00:43:16,469 --> 00:43:19,760 be backing up to an arterial or a collector. 979 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,380 Those are important features that if dilapidated, no one 980 00:43:23,380 --> 00:43:25,760 person is responsible for that 981 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,849 because you're dealing with an HOA at that point or some 982 00:43:28,849 --> 00:43:30,760 other type of organization. 983 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,480 The standard above that, you do have the option to use wood 984 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:34,760 . 985 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,119 You do have the option to use PVC, architectural metal 986 00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:39,760 panels, composite materials, 987 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,469 all of those things that are individual choices for what 988 00:43:43,469 --> 00:43:46,760 you want your property to look like. 989 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,760 So the maintenance side will still be true. 990 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,570 You will still get citations if you let your fence fall 991 00:43:53,570 --> 00:43:54,760 into disrepair, 992 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,090 but you're not going to be required to build a wall around 993 00:43:59,090 --> 00:43:59,760 your property 994 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,000 unless you're part of that perimeter fencing of the subdiv 995 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:04,760 ision. 996 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,880 Now, the chain link, we've been very specific in there on 997 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,760 that same page, item C, 998 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,420 that those are allowed but for agricultural, institutional, 999 00:44:15,420 --> 00:44:16,760 or industrial. 1000 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,119 So the idea is that, no, you don't want to encourage or 1001 00:44:20,119 --> 00:44:26,760 even allow chain link fencing for residential uses. 1002 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,760 There may be some out there. 1003 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,760 Well, you probably have a lot of those out there now. 1004 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:38,010 And whether or not those become nonconforming fences that 1005 00:44:38,010 --> 00:44:41,570 the city would try to chase down as they become dilapidated 1006 00:44:41,570 --> 00:44:41,760 , 1007 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,760 I guess that's a question for staff at that point. 1008 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,860 I guess my question is why not a chain link fence for a 1009 00:44:48,860 --> 00:44:51,760 neighborhood or residential? 1010 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:52,760 Especially in the backyard. 1011 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:53,760 In the backyard. 1012 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,929 That's my question because you get everybody -- the people 1013 00:44:57,929 --> 00:45:00,760 that approach me would rather have that 1014 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,760 so they can see their neighbors, speak to their neighbors, 1015 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,760 enjoy the creek 1016 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,289 rather than have a giant fence where you can't communicate 1017 00:45:10,289 --> 00:45:11,760 or see or anything. 1018 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,760 And so right now we prohibit that. 1019 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:15,760 We don't allow that no matter what. 1020 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,760 And so that's my question, I guess, is why. 1021 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,760 And I'll give you the flippant answer. 1022 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:24,760 That's the way they've always done it. 1023 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,760 I don't know why that is. 1024 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,760 I question that myself. 1025 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,210 So again, privacy fences create just that, a lack of 1026 00:45:33,210 --> 00:45:37,090 community or neighborhood by virtue that I can't see or 1027 00:45:37,090 --> 00:45:37,760 talk. 1028 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,409 If somebody chooses, they have the option to build a wood 1029 00:45:40,409 --> 00:45:42,760 fence, but we're not allowing a chain link. 1030 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,550 And I have to assume that that was council-driven at some 1031 00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:47,760 point in time. 1032 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,230 Why is that I've challenged most of the code to say we have 1033 00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:51,760 to rethink what we're doing. 1034 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,760 This is another one of those instances. 1035 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,699 And you as this committee saying it's very simple to say 1036 00:45:59,699 --> 00:46:01,760 chain link construct -- well, 1037 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,469 or maybe it's just even omitting C, short of the fact that 1038 00:46:05,469 --> 00:46:08,309 perhaps we don't want it in a front yard or something to 1039 00:46:08,309 --> 00:46:08,760 that effect, 1040 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,760 whatever the direction may be. 1041 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,800 But I don't know what would prohibit that other than that's 1042 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,760 the way that we've always done it. 1043 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,760 Could we add the chain link is only allowed where it's not 1044 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,760 viewable from the public right of way. 1045 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,809 So in other words, when you're doing between your house and 1046 00:46:26,809 --> 00:46:28,760 your neighbor's house, you put wood there, 1047 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,300 but then you can run a chain link down the center and chain 1048 00:46:32,300 --> 00:46:35,409 link along the back creek because that's not viewable from 1049 00:46:35,409 --> 00:46:36,760 the public right of way. 1050 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,760 There may be a way to say that. 1051 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:39,760 Yeah. 1052 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,409 It gets a little challenging because if I don't have a 1053 00:46:42,409 --> 00:46:43,760 fence and I live the block behind you, 1054 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,760 then I can see the public -- from the public right of way, 1055 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,760 I can see that chain link fence. 1056 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,760 So people will split hairs on that. 1057 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,000 But certainly -- or we can be more prescriptive to say, you 1058 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,760 know, fencing facing the public right of way must be -- 1059 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,760 Yeah, I like that better. 1060 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,760 Yeah, I like that. 1061 00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,340 It's just that it lasts longer, they're not blowing down, 1062 00:47:08,340 --> 00:47:10,760 you know, and they can be very nice. 1063 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,760 Don't disagree. 1064 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,210 Somewhere there was direction that it ended up and shame on 1065 00:47:16,210 --> 00:47:18,760 me because I'm always challenging the why. 1066 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:23,010 And I didn't challenge this other than to say that this is 1067 00:47:23,010 --> 00:47:26,239 one of Denton's rules that you must put structural members 1068 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:27,760 on the inside of a fence. 1069 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:29,480 So if you're building a wood fence, you must put the 1070 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:30,760 structural members to the inside. 1071 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,599 So the posts and the brackets have to be on your side of 1072 00:47:33,599 --> 00:47:36,760 the fence so you put the pretty side to your neighbors. 1073 00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,760 We did challenge the fence code here. 1074 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,050 And there are some things that are very common around the 1075 00:47:44,050 --> 00:47:44,760 nation. 1076 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,760 One is prohibiting chain link fencing. 1077 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,760 Most neighborhoods don't want to allow chain link fencing. 1078 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:53,760 It's been a trend for many years. 1079 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,119 So most codes that we write have a standard like this in 1080 00:47:57,119 --> 00:47:57,760 there. 1081 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,800 You already have that in there, so we didn't really 1082 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,760 challenge that aspect of it. 1083 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,760 Fence height is a different story. 1084 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,539 You allow eight foot fences, whereas most communities would 1085 00:48:08,539 --> 00:48:11,750 never consider that type of fence height without some sort 1086 00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:12,760 of a variance. 1087 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,920 We did challenge that and we're told no, this is what we do 1088 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,760 here and that is fine. 1089 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,760 So that's the purpose of this committee, though. 1090 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:27,019 If we want to talk about chain link fencing, I think that's 1091 00:48:27,019 --> 00:48:27,760 fine. 1092 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,219 I think chain link fence was more of an aesthetic, but I 1093 00:48:30,219 --> 00:48:33,710 wrote down here affordability is probably another factor we 1094 00:48:33,710 --> 00:48:34,760 need to factor into. 1095 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,010 So I think what Scott mentioned, as long as it's not 1096 00:48:37,010 --> 00:48:39,960 visible from the public right away, I think that we can 1097 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,760 then take care of some of the affordability concerns. 1098 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:50,570 I think when this came through 2003-2004 time frame that we 1099 00:48:50,570 --> 00:48:56,090 did away with chain link, it has been an option in the 1100 00:48:56,090 --> 00:49:00,030 discussion at the time was to possibly allow vinyl coated 1101 00:49:00,030 --> 00:49:01,760 chain link. 1102 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,760 And somehow that never got put in there. 1103 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,760 So one was taken away and nothing was added back. 1104 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:08,760 Right. 1105 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:09,760 Okay. 1106 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,760 And that's fairly prescriptive. 1107 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,119 Yeah, and I've worked in communities where the fencing was 1108 00:49:15,119 --> 00:49:15,760 a big deal. 1109 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,789 And typically the chain link is working in most residential 1110 00:49:18,789 --> 00:49:20,760 areas just for character reasons. 1111 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,750 But in one community, we wrote a code that said you could 1112 00:49:24,750 --> 00:49:27,760 have chain link based on your law size. 1113 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,420 So if you had bigger than a square foot lot, then you could 1114 00:49:32,420 --> 00:49:36,219 have chain link in small lots in a more residential or 1115 00:49:36,219 --> 00:49:37,760 urban area setting. 1116 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,730 And that would allow, it helped cost because if you have a 1117 00:49:41,730 --> 00:49:44,760 really big law, you have a lot of fence. 1118 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,760 So that would help with the cost. 1119 00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,250 So there's a lot of approaches you can take to allow chain 1120 00:49:51,250 --> 00:49:54,760 link in some circumstances or in all circumstances. 1121 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,809 Well, just because you were talking about having the 1122 00:49:57,809 --> 00:50:01,170 flexibility, allowing that flexibility for someone who's 1123 00:50:01,170 --> 00:50:04,760 getting the permit to decide or to look at the case by case 1124 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:05,760 . 1125 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:12,119 Just completely prohibiting it, you know, is, I would like 1126 00:50:12,119 --> 00:50:14,760 to reevaluate that. 1127 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,760 And the issue is, we have chain link fences out there now. 1128 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:19,760 Yes. 1129 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,050 I mean, it's on my property on one side of it so my dogs 1130 00:50:23,050 --> 00:50:23,760 can see. 1131 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:25,760 Yeah, you can come and cite me all you want. 1132 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,760 My house is 40 years ago. 1133 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:33,639 So that doesn't make any sense to not, you know, it's wood 1134 00:50:33,639 --> 00:50:36,780 everywhere else. But I mean, that was put in gosh knows how 1135 00:50:36,780 --> 00:50:37,760 long ago, probably four years ago. 1136 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,760 So I mean, and they're out there in all over the place. 1137 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:41,760 And still standing. 1138 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,150 And still, but I mean, so what are we really trying to do 1139 00:50:45,150 --> 00:50:48,760 and say by, I mean, that's what we have to figure out. 1140 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:49,760 Right. Right. 1141 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,559 I get why we don't want them all over it and actually made 1142 00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:57,440 a good point why you wouldn't want them in this tiny, you 1143 00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,760 know, perhaps urban area. 1144 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:04,510 But we probably need to somehow add that back in in some 1145 00:51:04,510 --> 00:51:05,760 capacity. 1146 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,869 Because what are you saying to all those people who have 1147 00:51:08,869 --> 00:51:10,760 chain link fences right now? 1148 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:15,760 You're nonconform. 1149 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,809 I don't like regulating by lot size for fence type that 1150 00:51:19,809 --> 00:51:23,159 that to me, I'd be nervous standing in front of court of 1151 00:51:23,159 --> 00:51:25,760 law saying, because your lot is smaller. 1152 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,409 You can't have chain link fence, but if you have a bigger 1153 00:51:28,409 --> 00:51:32,380 lot, could you allow it in certain zoning districts, so 1154 00:51:32,380 --> 00:51:35,760 that yeah, and that's what we've done. 1155 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:36,760 The question. 1156 00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:46,760 I think I like what Antartic said, allow them everywhere, 1157 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:51,760 but set some specific limitations such as not front. 1158 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:52,760 Would you say fronting? 1159 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,760 Side and rear yard fences. 1160 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:56,760 Not facing the public right of way. 1161 00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,239 Otherwise, anything on the side or the rear would be 1162 00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,760 allowed as long as it's not facing. 1163 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,469 Unless you're on a corner and your side lot faces the 1164 00:52:05,469 --> 00:52:06,760 public right of way. 1165 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,539 Did I hear too that the chain link fences are more 1166 00:52:10,539 --> 00:52:11,760 expensive? 1167 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:12,760 No. 1168 00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:14,760 Because I was going to dispute that. 1169 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:15,760 And they last longer. 1170 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,760 Okay, I just want to make sure I didn't misunderstand. 1171 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,760 Well, make sure they grow beautiful. 1172 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:21,760 They do. 1173 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:27,760 Well, I just, this is, this can be a big deal. 1174 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,809 There are a lot of people, the chain link folks were 1175 00:52:30,809 --> 00:52:32,760 killing it 40 years ago. 1176 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,760 They're not, they're not so much anymore. 1177 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,760 And there's reasons for that aesthetically. 1178 00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,840 And even in industrial areas, chain link fence is a very 1179 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,980 good way to keep your things secure without spending a lot 1180 00:52:44,980 --> 00:52:45,760 of money. 1181 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:50,019 You see people being very creative with slats inside of 1182 00:52:50,019 --> 00:52:54,090 chain link fencing that to make what was otherwise an 1183 00:52:54,090 --> 00:52:57,760 opaque fence or a non-opaque fence opaque. 1184 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,760 It's like, well, then you get into more aesthetic issues. 1185 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,760 So there have been challenges in a lot of communities. 1186 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,760 This is a good policy discussion. 1187 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,769 I think it's something that we would, we would have to 1188 00:53:10,769 --> 00:53:13,760 highlight as a big change in the consolidated draft. 1189 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:18,110 If we were to either take this out or amend it, we'll just 1190 00:53:18,110 --> 00:53:21,960 have to note that, hey, this is different than you're doing 1191 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:22,760 it now. 1192 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,280 Yeah, I'd be cautious about using the word opaque because 1193 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,760 wrought iron is, you can see through that. 1194 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,920 So, I mean, the only wrought iron on my yard is at the 1195 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:35,760 front. 1196 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,760 Everything else is eight foot wood. 1197 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:39,760 So, yeah. 1198 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:43,760 I just think the wood fence is the breakdown of community. 1199 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:44,760 Okay. 1200 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,760 I like it. 1201 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,949 Well, my neighbors got to get an eight foot tall fence and 1202 00:53:50,949 --> 00:53:51,760 so, yeah. 1203 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,760 And I don't disagree, I don't disagree with that. 1204 00:53:54,760 --> 00:54:00,019 And I hear and see both sides of this because again, when 1205 00:54:00,019 --> 00:54:03,980 you look at chain link fences, often they catch Walmart 1206 00:54:03,980 --> 00:54:04,760 bags. 1207 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,760 It did not maintain. 1208 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,760 And small children. 1209 00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:14,760 Well, I think the governor took care of that one for us. 1210 00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:20,550 So, maybe there's some middle ground there and we just 1211 00:54:20,550 --> 00:54:23,760 continue to talk through this. 1212 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:32,300 Limiting or allowing the use in some application, which is 1213 00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:34,760 an expanse of where we're at today. 1214 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,760 Right, right, just some sort of option. 1215 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,760 Maybe it's not in new subdivisions either. 1216 00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:40,760 Maybe those are all still wood. 1217 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,139 But I'm just speaking from my district and hearing the out 1218 00:54:44,139 --> 00:54:44,760 cries. 1219 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,550 And I mean, anytime somebody talks about a fence, it's just 1220 00:54:48,550 --> 00:54:49,760 pile on pile on. 1221 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,760 Why can't we have a, you know, and mostly because we have, 1222 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,920 it's an older established neighborhood, you know, the 1223 00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:57,760 people of Cremley. 1224 00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,780 And we have the creek that runs through and people don't 1225 00:55:00,780 --> 00:55:02,760 want to block their view of that. 1226 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:08,760 So, and I guess just for conversation sake. 1227 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:16,369 So, we say you must, you can't construct a chain link fence 1228 00:55:16,369 --> 00:55:19,760 , but it doesn't preclude you from a picket fence. 1229 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:25,760 It doesn't preclude you from some sense of a board on board 1230 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,760 that you could have greater openings and shorter height. 1231 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,889 Meaning you could have a four foot instead of having a six 1232 00:55:31,889 --> 00:55:33,760 foot or eight foot wood fence. 1233 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,760 So, you have a barrier. 1234 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,519 So, having a picket fence, it doesn't preclude you from 1235 00:55:39,519 --> 00:55:41,760 putting wire on the face of it. 1236 00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:48,860 This is specifically addressing a fence that is associated 1237 00:55:48,860 --> 00:55:53,750 with, I think in today's standards, more industrial or 1238 00:55:53,750 --> 00:55:55,760 something else. 1239 00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:03,010 So, maybe part of this is offering up a couple more words 1240 00:56:03,010 --> 00:56:04,760 to say picket. 1241 00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,480 So, people can think in terms of different types of fencing 1242 00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:08,760 . 1243 00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:09,760 I don't know. 1244 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,119 I don't know that that addresses, you know, part of the 1245 00:56:13,119 --> 00:56:15,760 need rather than promoting something. 1246 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,199 And then the second part to that is, is if there's an 1247 00:56:19,199 --> 00:56:22,650 existing chain link, I don't know why a person couldn't put 1248 00:56:22,650 --> 00:56:23,760 a chain link back. 1249 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:47,760 [ Inaudible ] 1250 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,760 Is it below 36 inches is considered just decoration or I 1251 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,760 can't remember, it was 36 or 30 inches I think. 1252 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:57,760 It's not considered a fence. 1253 00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,760 Yeah, you're thinking of the national norms. 1254 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:05,420 So, and again, we're trying to go down those roads more 1255 00:57:05,420 --> 00:57:06,760 frequently. 1256 00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:08,760 And again, maybe that's one of those pieces. 1257 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,760 Where it isn't, it's an honor system. 1258 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:15,150 A person under 200 square foot on an accessory building is 1259 00:57:15,150 --> 00:57:17,760 not required to get or 125 square feet. 1260 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,760 120. 1261 00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,760 And again, so here it is. 1262 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,900 And I will tell you that number is about a decade old, but 1263 00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:30,760 we continue to do that as a local amendment. 1264 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:32,980 Well, why would we do that when we know people are living 1265 00:57:32,980 --> 00:57:33,760 differently? 1266 00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:38,130 But with that being said, if I build a 100 square foot shed 1267 00:57:38,130 --> 00:57:41,760 , I don't have to get a building permit to do that. 1268 00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,760 However, I still have to follow all the rules. 1269 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,760 So a fence should be no different. 1270 00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,190 And the reason that you permit a fence greater than 6 feet 1271 00:57:51,190 --> 00:57:53,760 height is because you have wind factors. 1272 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:55,760 So you have concerns for where it's going. 1273 00:57:55,760 --> 00:58:00,320 Too many times what we do in having a fence permit is that 1274 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,760 we get into these neighbor squabbles. 1275 00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,760 We get into these, this is on my property line. 1276 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,480 And again, I don't know that we really need to be in the 1277 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,349 business of doing that because there's not a health, life 1278 00:58:12,349 --> 00:58:13,760 safety issue. 1279 00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:19,010 The aesthetics to me, editorial, the aesthetics of putting 1280 00:58:19,010 --> 00:58:21,349 the posts on the outside of the fence versus the inside of 1281 00:58:21,349 --> 00:58:21,760 the fence. 1282 00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,519 I think the aesthetic issue is really that chain link fence 1283 00:58:24,519 --> 00:58:24,760 . 1284 00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,059 So if we prohibit a chain link fence and somebody builds a 1285 00:58:28,059 --> 00:58:32,099 wooden fence adjacent to me and I get the ugly posts, it's 1286 00:58:32,099 --> 00:58:35,760 still a very nice fence and I didn't pay for it. 1287 00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,760 I mean, we have a tendency of getting hung up on that. 1288 00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:43,989 If it's fronting a right of way, I agree that aesthetically 1289 00:58:43,989 --> 00:58:47,760 we should have the best side facing out. 1290 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,909 When I built my shed, it was 9 foot 11 inches by 11 foot 11 1291 00:58:52,909 --> 00:58:53,760 inches. 1292 00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,760 It went in shorter than 120 square feet in both directions. 1293 00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:58,760 That caused a lot of work. 1294 00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:03,760 I want to go out there. 1295 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:08,760 I want to go out there because he put trim boards on. 1296 00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:11,760 It's almost the time, chef. 1297 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:17,760 I've since sold that house. 1298 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:22,099 >> Does that help address that, do you think, if we provide 1299 00:59:22,099 --> 00:59:23,760 more descriptive? 1300 00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,760 >> I just think the conversation should be had. 1301 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:31,760 I hear it quite a bit, especially from my district. 1302 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,340 >> So talking through this, I mean, because we're kind of 1303 00:59:34,340 --> 00:59:39,960 here, is there some recommendations that we kind of want to 1304 00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,519 move forward with, not saying we're going to make a 1305 00:59:41,519 --> 00:59:44,550 decision here today and then we can come back and visit 1306 00:59:44,550 --> 00:59:45,760 when we get into the details on this. 1307 00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:49,219 But just kind of give me a frame of reference on where we 1308 00:59:49,219 --> 00:59:50,760 should go with this. 1309 00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:54,760 >> You want to go with allowing it as an option, right? 1310 00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:58,570 >> As an option, maybe with permission from the neighbors 1311 00:59:58,570 --> 01:00:02,760 or maybe with the front facing wood, you know, screening. 1312 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,559 >> Certainly the new subdivision, HLA is going to prohibit 1313 01:00:06,559 --> 01:00:09,760 and take that right out of the new development. 1314 01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:11,760 >> But a lot of them don't have HLA's. 1315 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:13,760 >> No, a lot of the new development does. 1316 01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:19,429 >> I would recommend not doing the ask your neighbors first 1317 01:00:19,429 --> 01:00:20,760 approach. 1318 01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:25,440 Just because, yeah, maybe you're an ex-husband, but you're 1319 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,760 still a neighbor, they're going to say no every time. 1320 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:31,760 Or you're going to say no every time. 1321 01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,619 We don't want other squabbles getting in the middle of the 1322 01:00:35,619 --> 01:00:36,760 fence issue. 1323 01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,519 >> Perhaps what we can do is almost create what I'm 1324 01:00:40,519 --> 01:00:43,760 thinking like a policy document overall. 1325 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:48,780 And so have this item on that document and then we can 1326 01:00:48,780 --> 01:00:52,949 prepare sort of a pros and cons and bring that back and 1327 01:00:52,949 --> 01:00:56,110 then as we move forward, I'm guessing we're going to have 1328 01:00:56,110 --> 01:00:57,760 quite a bit of these items. 1329 01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:59,760 >> Yeah, when we get to -- it's probably a good approach. 1330 01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:00,760 >> We should have pictures too. 1331 01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,730 >> Yeah, when we get to this -- because we're going to go 1332 01:01:03,730 --> 01:01:07,000 sub-chapter by sub-chapter through all this material in the 1333 01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:07,760 same way. 1334 01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,159 Then when we get to that, we'll have some maybe 1335 01:01:10,159 --> 01:01:11,760 recommendations or ideas. 1336 01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:15,059 >> Can you add a question to the public comment just to see 1337 01:01:15,059 --> 01:01:17,760 what people think while you're out there? 1338 01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:18,760 >> Where's the name? 1339 01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:20,760 >> Well, no, I mean just in your -- 1340 01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:22,760 >> Yes. 1341 01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:23,760 >> Add it to the comments. 1342 01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:24,760 >> Yes. 1343 01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,760 We can ask that question in the public meetings. 1344 01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,760 >> Okay. 1345 01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:32,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1346 01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:33,760 >> Okay. 1347 01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:34,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1348 01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:35,760 >> Okay. 1349 01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:36,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1350 01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:37,760 >> Okay. 1351 01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:38,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1352 01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:39,760 >> Okay. 1353 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:40,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1354 01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:41,760 >> Okay. 1355 01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:42,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1356 01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:43,760 >> Okay. 1357 01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:44,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1358 01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:45,760 >> Okay. 1359 01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:46,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1360 01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:47,760 >> Okay. 1361 01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:48,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1362 01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:49,760 >> Okay. 1363 01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:50,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1364 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:51,760 >> Okay. 1365 01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:52,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1366 01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:53,760 >> Okay. 1367 01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:54,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1368 01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:55,760 >> Okay. 1369 01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:56,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1370 01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:57,760 >> Okay. 1371 01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:58,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1372 01:01:58,760 --> 01:01:59,760 >> Okay. 1373 01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:00,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1374 01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:01,760 >> Okay. 1375 01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:02,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1376 01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:03,760 >> Okay. 1377 01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:04,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1378 01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:05,760 >> Okay. 1379 01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:06,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1380 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:07,760 >> Okay. 1381 01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:08,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1382 01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:09,760 >> Okay. 1383 01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:10,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1384 01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:11,760 >> Okay. 1385 01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:12,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1386 01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:13,760 >> Okay. 1387 01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:14,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1388 01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:15,760 >> Okay. 1389 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:16,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1390 01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:17,760 >> Okay. 1391 01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:18,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1392 01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:19,760 >> Okay. 1393 01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:20,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1394 01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:21,760 >> Okay. 1395 01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:22,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1396 01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:23,760 >> Okay. 1397 01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:24,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1398 01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:25,760 >> Okay. 1399 01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:26,760 >> And then we can ask questions. 1400 01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:30,469 >> That was the question I get asked and I don't have an 1401 01:02:30,469 --> 01:02:31,760 answer for it. 1402 01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:35,750 We're just a really unique community and I think allowing 1403 01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:37,760 our homeowners to have that 1404 01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,760 choice is valuable. 1405 01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,909 >> I think as we get rid of it, after we get some feedback 1406 01:02:44,909 --> 01:02:47,260 from the public, I think this 1407 01:02:47,260 --> 01:02:49,840 may be an item, fencing may be an item that should be a 1408 01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:51,760 work session for the full council. 1409 01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,760 Just so that it doesn't come to them. 1410 01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:58,199 You might have some members of council that say absolutely 1411 01:02:58,199 --> 01:02:59,760 no on chain link so that it 1412 01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:00,760 doesn't get to them. 1413 01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:04,820 >> And it would be, so when we come back and present to 1414 01:03:04,820 --> 01:03:07,760 each of those, when staff presents, 1415 01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:08,760 that's what it would be. 1416 01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,760 So subchapter six, this is what we talked about today. 1417 01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:12,760 We got hung up on fencing. 1418 01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,760 We didn't know what to do, what was the policy direction. 1419 01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:16,760 Here's the items. 1420 01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:20,900 >> Maybe if anyone could figure out how we got to that 1421 01:03:20,900 --> 01:03:21,760 point. 1422 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:25,000 >> We have that back history of what was the catalyst for 1423 01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:26,760 the reason we did that in the 1424 01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:27,760 first place. 1425 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:28,760 >> That's a question I get. 1426 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:29,760 Why can't I do this? 1427 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:30,760 >> Because. 1428 01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:31,760 >> It's the beauty of my job. 1429 01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:32,760 >> Because I said so. 1430 01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:33,760 I can't play mom. 1431 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:34,760 I can't do that. 1432 01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:35,760 >> That's great history. 1433 01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:36,760 It's not a good reason to have it in the code. 1434 01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:37,309 >> Some of these issues, researching some of the recent 1435 01:03:37,309 --> 01:03:37,760 amendments that we brought forward, 1436 01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:49,219 researching it, some of them were intended to be these 1437 01:03:49,219 --> 01:03:56,760 quick fixes until there's an update. 1438 01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:05,800 So these big fixes that were done on a temporary basis five 1439 01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:11,760 , six years ago or longer, actually 1440 01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:12,760 become the norm. 1441 01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:13,760 Everyone forgot that it was supposed to be temporary. 1442 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:14,760 >> That's the important part of this committee. 1443 01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:17,940 That's why it is that Clarion did this work once and we 1444 01:04:17,940 --> 01:04:19,760 sent them back and said start 1445 01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:21,909 over, not that they did anything wrong, they just 1446 01:04:21,909 --> 01:04:23,760 replicated what we had instead of saying 1447 01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:27,590 what's really best practice and what are progressive 1448 01:04:27,590 --> 01:04:31,760 communities doing and how do we do it better? 1449 01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:35,860 And this is a great point because it's how I'm most 1450 01:04:35,860 --> 01:04:38,760 effective in my job is just why. 1451 01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:39,760 >> Okay. 1452 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:40,760 >> I don't have an answer. 1453 01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,010 >> In terms of process, you brought up the point about 1454 01:04:43,010 --> 01:04:44,320 bringing this back to the whole 1455 01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,760 council for policy discussion. 1456 01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:50,050 >> Yeah, just the subject of just a work session on fencing 1457 01:04:50,050 --> 01:04:50,360 . 1458 01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:52,360 >> So you can do that. 1459 01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,380 I will also just as a reminder, when all of this 1460 01:04:55,380 --> 01:04:58,239 information gets put into a consolidated 1461 01:04:58,239 --> 01:05:02,340 draft, we're going to flag those things because they're big 1462 01:05:02,340 --> 01:05:03,239 changes. 1463 01:05:03,239 --> 01:05:06,030 In the footnote on this page, if we change the way it's 1464 01:05:06,030 --> 01:05:08,039 currently drafted for chain link, 1465 01:05:08,039 --> 01:05:12,699 we'll say policy discussion item or discussion item and you 1466 01:05:12,699 --> 01:05:14,880 can flag those and the staff 1467 01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:18,809 report can reference those and kind of call more attention 1468 01:05:18,809 --> 01:05:20,679 to these things that we all 1469 01:05:20,679 --> 01:05:23,679 talked about in this room with you all. 1470 01:05:23,679 --> 01:05:24,679 Okay. 1471 01:05:24,679 --> 01:05:27,960 Well, I'm glad we got to fences. 1472 01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:29,960 I almost skipped right over it. 1473 01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,769 >> You have no idea the kind of comments and questions I 1474 01:05:33,769 --> 01:05:34,960 get about it. 1475 01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:39,960 So I was like last night, today I'm not letting it go. 1476 01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:40,960 >> I'm happy. 1477 01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:41,960 >> The conversation. 1478 01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:42,960 >> No, it's great. 1479 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:43,960 It really needs to happen. 1480 01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:44,960 It's no different for me. 1481 01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:47,349 There's just a lot of these things that there are these 1482 01:05:47,349 --> 01:05:47,960 nuances. 1483 01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:49,960 Well, for me, it's daily. 1484 01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:50,960 It's absolutely daily. 1485 01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:51,960 I question it. 1486 01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:55,219 And so I'm asking myself why and then I just have to stop 1487 01:05:55,219 --> 01:05:56,960 asking why because I can't get 1488 01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:59,960 anything done. 1489 01:05:59,960 --> 01:06:00,960 >> Just change it. 1490 01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:05,559 >> So we go out and so shouldn't be going down this road, 1491 01:06:05,559 --> 01:06:07,960 but we go out, perform, we 1492 01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:13,460 send building inspectors to inspect fences to make sure the 1493 01:06:13,460 --> 01:06:15,960 posts are on the inside. 1494 01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,960 To me, what a waste of a resource. 1495 01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:19,960 So I've stopped that. 1496 01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:20,960 I've stopped it. 1497 01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:21,960 And I said we're not going to do that. 1498 01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:22,960 We're going to do the health welfare inspections. 1499 01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:23,760 We're going to spend more time on the things that actually 1500 01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:23,960 matter. 1501 01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:24,639 If we get a complaint, then we can address the fence posts 1502 01:06:24,639 --> 01:06:24,960 on the wrong side. 1503 01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:25,550 You make sure when we issue the permit that it's very clear 1504 01:06:25,550 --> 01:06:25,960 that this is the way you build 1505 01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:26,960 a fence according to our regulations. 1506 01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:27,730 Their failure to do that means they have to redo their 1507 01:06:27,730 --> 01:06:27,960 fence. 1508 01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:28,960 I can't help them. 1509 01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:29,500 >> It's so funny you bring that up because across the 1510 01:06:29,500 --> 01:06:29,960 street, there's a lot of people 1511 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:30,960 who are going to be like, oh, I'm going to build a fence. 1512 01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:31,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1513 01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:32,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1514 01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:33,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1515 01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:34,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1516 01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:49,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1517 01:06:49,960 --> 01:07:04,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1518 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:20,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1519 01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:35,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1520 01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:51,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1521 01:07:51,960 --> 01:08:06,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1522 01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:21,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1523 01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:22,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1524 01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:23,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1525 01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:24,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1526 01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:25,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1527 01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:26,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1528 01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:27,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1529 01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:28,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1530 01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:29,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1531 01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:30,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1532 01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:31,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1533 01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:32,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1534 01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:33,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1535 01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:34,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1536 01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:35,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1537 01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:36,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1538 01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:37,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1539 01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:38,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1540 01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:39,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1541 01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:40,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1542 01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:41,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1543 01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:42,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1544 01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:43,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1545 01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:44,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1546 01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:45,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1547 01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:46,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1548 01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:47,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1549 01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:48,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1550 01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:49,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1551 01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:50,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1552 01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:51,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1553 01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:52,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1554 01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:53,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1555 01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:54,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1556 01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:55,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1557 01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:56,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1558 01:08:56,960 --> 01:08:57,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1559 01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:07,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1560 01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:08,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1561 01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:09,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1562 01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:10,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1563 01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:11,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1564 01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:12,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1565 01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:13,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1566 01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:14,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1567 01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:15,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1568 01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:16,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1569 01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:17,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1570 01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:18,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1571 01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:19,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1572 01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:20,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1573 01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:21,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1574 01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:22,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1575 01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:23,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1576 01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:24,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1577 01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:25,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1578 01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:26,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1579 01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:27,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1580 01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:28,960 I'm going to build a fence. 1581 01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:38,960 However, it is, was one piece. 1582 01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:42,960 But no, we shouldn't be in the business of neighbor 1583 01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:43,960 disputes. 1584 01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:48,960 Because it goes to the fact that the paint's flaking. 1585 01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:49,960 Painted both sides of the fence. 1586 01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:52,960 I can't get on your property to maintain that side or put 1587 01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:52,960 new stain. 1588 01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:56,920 So all of a sudden now we're going to squabble on who owns 1589 01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:57,960 the fence. 1590 01:09:57,960 --> 01:09:58,960 Both neighbors are new. 1591 01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:00,960 Nobody knows who built the fence. 1592 01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:02,960 Just duel. 1593 01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:05,960 Take out gloves and slap over the top of the fence. 1594 01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:06,960 Burgers. 1595 01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:07,960 Burgers. 1596 01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:08,960 It's right on the property line. 1597 01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:11,960 It's common usage. 1598 01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,960 It serves a common purpose. 1599 01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:18,529 It doesn't seem out of, you know, if it's starting to 1600 01:10:18,529 --> 01:10:19,960 violate city code as far as appearance 1601 01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:22,960 and everything like that, it does need to be repaired. 1602 01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:26,479 And just to offset the cost for one person to pay for it 1603 01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:27,960 while the other one benefits 1604 01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:28,960 from it completely. 1605 01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:30,960 That's the only reason I bring that up. 1606 01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:32,869 If I want to build a fence on my property, you live next 1607 01:10:32,869 --> 01:10:33,960 door to me, you didn't want 1608 01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,960 a fence, I'm going to ask you to pay for half. 1609 01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:37,960 No, no, no, no. 1610 01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:38,960 I'm not talking about that. 1611 01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:39,960 Well, it's sort of the same though. 1612 01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:41,960 Well, then maybe we need to distinguish. 1613 01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:45,500 Yeah, once a fence is up, like in new developments, right 1614 01:10:45,500 --> 01:10:47,960 now I share a back fence where I've 1615 01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:48,960 got the post on my side. 1616 01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:53,060 But the way the property is, he just sees the backside of 1617 01:10:53,060 --> 01:10:54,960 my fence with no post. 1618 01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:57,960 So, but he benefits from that. 1619 01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:00,970 So when that fence starts to deteriorate, I'm totally 1620 01:11:00,970 --> 01:11:01,960 responsible. 1621 01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:02,960 Yep. 1622 01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:09,960 So yeah, I have a fence right now on my side. 1623 01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:13,619 It's covered, I just grew this beautiful Boston Ivy right 1624 01:11:13,619 --> 01:11:14,960 all over my fence. 1625 01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:17,779 My neighbor told me yesterday that fence is all coming down 1626 01:11:17,779 --> 01:11:18,960 and they're putting up an 1627 01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:20,960 eight foot fence on that one side of my driveway. 1628 01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:22,960 I'm like, my Ivy, it's beautiful. 1629 01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:24,960 It's covered the whole fence. 1630 01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:27,960 It's just now got to where the leaves are giant. 1631 01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:31,409 Well, we should move to the Boston Ivy protection standards 1632 01:11:31,409 --> 01:11:31,960 then. 1633 01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:32,960 Yeah. 1634 01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,960 Which are next. 1635 01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:37,960 There's some creative ways of doing that. 1636 01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:39,850 You just drop some posts on your side, on your side of the 1637 01:11:39,850 --> 01:11:40,960 fence, just push that fence 1638 01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:42,960 a couple inches and you keep the fence. 1639 01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:44,960 Yeah, see a lot of that too. 1640 01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:45,960 Gaps between two fences. 1641 01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:48,960 I'll just save the Ivy and we'll start all over again. 1642 01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:49,960 Okay. 1643 01:11:49,960 --> 01:12:18,960 [inaudible] 1644 01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:21,890 I like that public view thing because I don't like that 1645 01:12:21,890 --> 01:12:22,960 language here. 1646 01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:23,960 That scares me. 1647 01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:24,960 Yeah. 1648 01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:29,960 If I'm on the Acropolis, I can see more than somebody else. 1649 01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:31,960 Okay. 1650 01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:36,960 Parking. 1651 01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:41,960 We got time for this. 1652 01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:46,960 That was the punchline today, parking. 1653 01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:50,960 Okay, so changes to parking as well. 1654 01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:52,960 A new parking table. 1655 01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:56,640 And if you were to look in your document, we start that 1656 01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:58,960 table on page 88 and then it 1657 01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:01,960 rolls on for a few pages here. 1658 01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:05,960 The way you regulate parking today is highly unusual. 1659 01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:10,029 I'm creating a running list of ways that Denton is not like 1660 01:13:10,029 --> 01:13:10,960 the norm. 1661 01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:12,960 This is one of them. 1662 01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:15,729 You're required to have this exact number of parking spaces 1663 01:13:15,729 --> 01:13:15,960 . 1664 01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:17,960 That is not flexible. 1665 01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:20,359 So what we've done, we've matched the use table that you 1666 01:13:20,359 --> 01:13:20,960 saw with the zoning districts 1667 01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:23,960 proposed last summer. 1668 01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:27,750 Each one of those uses has a corresponding parking 1669 01:13:27,750 --> 01:13:29,960 requirement, a minimum parking 1670 01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:30,960 requirement. 1671 01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:35,260 Instead of having the maximum also be that minimum like you 1672 01:13:35,260 --> 01:13:36,960 do now, we have set a 1673 01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:42,960 parking maximum at 125% of the minimum parking requirement. 1674 01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:45,960 So there's no minimum. 1675 01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:47,960 There is a minimum. 1676 01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:48,960 You have to hit the minimum. 1677 01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:53,470 If you're required to have 100 parking spaces, you need at 1678 01:13:53,470 --> 01:13:54,960 least 100. 1679 01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:59,960 But you can't provide more than 125 if 100 is your minimum. 1680 01:13:59,960 --> 01:14:00,960 Okay. 1681 01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:03,279 And this is going to go across the board with residential, 1682 01:14:03,279 --> 01:14:03,960 industrial? 1683 01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:04,960 Across the board. 1684 01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:05,960 Okay. 1685 01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:06,960 That's where I have a problem. 1686 01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:08,960 I think a lot of people do. 1687 01:14:08,960 --> 01:14:12,560 When we start getting into these shopping mall areas where 1688 01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:14,960 you have this minimum requirement, 1689 01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:19,260 the fact that half of that territory is probably never used 1690 01:14:19,260 --> 01:14:20,960 except maybe on major holidays, 1691 01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:23,960 maybe, that's a lot of wasted space. 1692 01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,960 That's a lot of wasted space for green space. 1693 01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:32,199 So I'm hoping that we can have or eliminate the minimum 1694 01:14:32,199 --> 01:14:35,960 requirement in commercial areas. 1695 01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:39,020 Let the developer best decide for them because I think a 1696 01:14:39,020 --> 01:14:40,960 lot of developers would agree. 1697 01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:44,420 They're required to put in too much parking space that they 1698 01:14:44,420 --> 01:14:45,960 don't use and that costs them 1699 01:14:45,960 --> 01:14:47,960 money and that gets passed on. 1700 01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:49,960 So I'd like to open that conversation up. 1701 01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:52,960 I'll disagree if you don't mind. 1702 01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:57,890 I will tell you my first restaurant experience in Denton 1703 01:14:57,890 --> 01:15:01,960 since I was employed, I met a developer 1704 01:15:01,960 --> 01:15:04,960 at Nero Bread. 1705 01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:05,960 Over? 1706 01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:07,960 I was on University. 1707 01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:08,960 Okay. 1708 01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:14,869 I was there at 1130, 1125 and I couldn't park in their 1709 01:15:14,869 --> 01:15:17,960 parking lot so I had to go use an 1710 01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:20,960 adjacent parking lot to park there. 1711 01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:25,279 I will argue our minimums are probably not where they need 1712 01:15:25,279 --> 01:15:25,960 to be. 1713 01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:31,109 We have minimums that go back decades as far as how I see 1714 01:15:31,109 --> 01:15:31,960 them. 1715 01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:36,670 When we think in terms of people used to have 1.5 cars per 1716 01:15:36,670 --> 01:15:38,960 household, it's now really three 1717 01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:42,960 cars per household if you have at least a kid or two kids. 1718 01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:46,720 So we have more people driving, more people working and 1719 01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:48,960 more people meeting at whatever 1720 01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:49,960 establishments. 1721 01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:54,489 So the business owners or the developers or the builders 1722 01:15:54,489 --> 01:15:56,960 will build to a minimum or less 1723 01:15:56,960 --> 01:16:00,680 than a minimum parking if allowed, which is a safety hazard 1724 01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:00,960 . 1725 01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:04,909 It is problematic and people park on other people's 1726 01:16:04,909 --> 01:16:07,960 property, which kind of these domino 1727 01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:08,960 effects on parking. 1728 01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,250 I understand when you say large shopping centers that these 1729 01:16:12,250 --> 01:16:13,960 parking areas appear to be too 1730 01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:17,180 large and many times we look at like the mall, there's a 1731 01:16:17,180 --> 01:16:18,960 two or three week window when that 1732 01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:22,960 parking lot is full, but beyond that it is not. 1733 01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:26,689 I just want to rethink parking and where it is you're 1734 01:16:26,689 --> 01:16:29,960 saying green space, I want to augment 1735 01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:31,529 the parking lot and create more green space within the 1736 01:16:31,529 --> 01:16:31,960 parking. 1737 01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:33,960 I don't care how much parking they have. 1738 01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:36,960 They're going to put the responsible amount of parking. 1739 01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:39,739 We're going to ensure that they have a responsible amount 1740 01:16:39,739 --> 01:16:41,960 of parking based on how it is used 1741 01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:43,960 in the use of the building. 1742 01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:47,680 But I think that we also have an opportunity to create a 1743 01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:49,960 place that we have greater tree 1744 01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:50,960 canopy. 1745 01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:52,960 We reduce heat. 1746 01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:57,960 We help the ecological system. 1747 01:16:57,960 --> 01:16:59,960 We have a place for water to drain. 1748 01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:02,960 So again, getting into the curb cuts. 1749 01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:07,470 All of the things that we can do to try to help mitigate a 1750 01:17:07,470 --> 01:17:09,960 larger parking lot by virtue 1751 01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:13,420 of the concrete creating problem, but also serving what our 1752 01:17:13,420 --> 01:17:14,960 public safety folks need, 1753 01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:18,180 which is we need to have ample room and we can't have cars 1754 01:17:18,180 --> 01:17:19,960 parked on top of each other. 1755 01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:23,960 So that's my concern with eliminating a minimum. 1756 01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:27,060 I don't even think our minimum is accurate today in many 1757 01:17:27,060 --> 01:17:27,960 instances. 1758 01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:30,960 We reduced it though. 1759 01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:34,960 So that's inconsistent with what you just said. 1760 01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:39,460 So you currently require more parking for minimum retail 1761 01:17:39,460 --> 01:17:41,960 standards than we proposed. 1762 01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:47,029 We went from basically a one per 300 square feet to one per 1763 01:17:47,029 --> 01:17:49,960 350 square feet is what's been 1764 01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:50,960 proposed in the draft. 1765 01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:55,640 Still setting a maximum at 125% of that, giving the market 1766 01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:57,960 a little bit of flexibility. 1767 01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:02,960 This is an ongoing debate because parking is not a science. 1768 01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:05,960 It's one that is constantly evolving. 1769 01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:10,479 A lot of lenders out there won't even give you the bill 1770 01:18:10,479 --> 01:18:13,960 until they see that you have enough parking. 1771 01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:18,409 Well, and I think each developer, especially if they've 1772 01:18:18,409 --> 01:18:19,960 done a lot of this, they're going 1773 01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:20,960 to know what it's going to take. 1774 01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:23,960 I'm not saying, you know, it's verboten. 1775 01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:26,180 I'm just saying take it away and let the developer make 1776 01:18:26,180 --> 01:18:26,960 that decision. 1777 01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:27,960 Here's the other. 1778 01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:30,960 There are several communities that have this, Scott. 1779 01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:33,560 Fort Smith, Arkansas is the one that comes to mind because 1780 01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:34,960 it's one of the first ones. 1781 01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:37,260 But there are several communities around the country that 1782 01:18:37,260 --> 01:18:39,960 have eliminated their minimum parking requirements. 1783 01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:43,960 And it's benefited them in ways that developers appreciate. 1784 01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:47,340 But it discourages, and I know this is going to sound 1785 01:18:47,340 --> 01:18:48,960 selfish and I don't mean it to be, 1786 01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:50,960 but it will discourage the use of cars. 1787 01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:53,239 You know you're probably going to have a hard time finding 1788 01:18:53,239 --> 01:18:55,619 a parking place, and it's only six blocks down the road 1789 01:18:55,619 --> 01:18:55,960 anyway, 1790 01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:58,340 and it encourages people to walk, use their bikes, things 1791 01:18:58,340 --> 01:18:58,960 like that. 1792 01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:00,960 So that's part of the purpose behind that. 1793 01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:04,159 I know that's not going to be a match in every case, and 1794 01:19:04,159 --> 01:19:05,960 that's why we need to look at this. 1795 01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:08,350 But just simply by taking away the minimum parking 1796 01:19:08,350 --> 01:19:12,449 requirement for big commercial enterprises opens the door 1797 01:19:12,449 --> 01:19:12,960 for them to say, 1798 01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:14,960 well, you know, I really do need these. 1799 01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:17,770 And I see a lot of these people coming in asking us for 1800 01:19:17,770 --> 01:19:21,390 more than we allow to, and we do this alternate development 1801 01:19:21,390 --> 01:19:21,960 plan for them. 1802 01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:25,829 But there may be areas where the developers are asked to 1803 01:19:25,829 --> 01:19:27,960 put in so many parking places, 1804 01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:31,770 and they know that it's not going to benefit them that much 1805 01:19:31,770 --> 01:19:33,960 except on special occasions. 1806 01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:35,960 So just I don't disagree with your argument. 1807 01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:38,960 It is. Those elements are there and it sounds. 1808 01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:41,340 But I think there's other aspects to it that we're over 1809 01:19:41,340 --> 01:19:41,960 looking. 1810 01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:45,960 I just think it's a conversation I'd like to see open up. 1811 01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:50,229 I proposed this about a year and a half ago when Manal Dad 1812 01:19:50,229 --> 01:19:51,960 was here, 1813 01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:55,420 and she liked it, and I think the staff liked it at that 1814 01:19:55,420 --> 01:19:56,960 time, and then all of a sudden, 1815 01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:00,960 well, it got shelved for some reason. I have no idea why. 1816 01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:04,750 But it's something I'd still like to pursue and at least 1817 01:20:04,750 --> 01:20:07,960 get back out there in the open and have definitive reasons 1818 01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:10,960 either why we shouldn't have it or why we can't. 1819 01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:16,729 I know the planning director for Portsmouth, so I'll visit 1820 01:20:16,729 --> 01:20:17,960 with Paul Bailey. 1821 01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:23,859 Richard, didn't we increase -- I think in some of those 1822 01:20:23,859 --> 01:20:27,960 uses, those numbers were skewed. 1823 01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:34,960 The office was pretty low. 1824 01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:38,970 And I guess another piece to add to this, and we haven't 1825 01:20:38,970 --> 01:20:41,960 had this conversation, is a parking bank, 1826 01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:45,399 is creating a parking bank, and especially as we look at 1827 01:20:45,399 --> 01:20:49,340 downtown in some of these mixed use developments of how it 1828 01:20:49,340 --> 01:20:50,960 is that we can look at parking 1829 01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:54,239 because we have different hours of operation for different 1830 01:20:54,239 --> 01:20:58,960 businesses and how it is that we can allow less parking. 1831 01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:03,710 And maybe that's the provision in this is if someone builds 1832 01:21:03,710 --> 01:21:07,289 a strip mall, what do we require the parking to be in that 1833 01:21:07,289 --> 01:21:07,960 strip mall? 1834 01:21:07,960 --> 01:21:10,430 So we don't know what the uses are going to be. If every 1835 01:21:10,430 --> 01:21:13,680 one of those were going to be a restaurant, we wouldn't 1836 01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:16,239 have enough parking compared to if they were all going to 1837 01:21:16,239 --> 01:21:16,960 be chiropractors. 1838 01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:20,630 I mean, so again, we have to try to manage really the life 1839 01:21:20,630 --> 01:21:21,960 of the building. 1840 01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:25,649 So for the next hundred years, do we know how the building 1841 01:21:25,649 --> 01:21:28,960 is going to be used and where that's going to go? So it 1842 01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:28,960 really is a challenge. 1843 01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:31,979 Yeah, one of the biggest struggles is what happens with a 1844 01:21:31,979 --> 01:21:32,960 change of use. 1845 01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:36,829 And many staffs don't have the opportunity to even open up 1846 01:21:36,829 --> 01:21:39,960 the door for conversation about parking. 1847 01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:43,609 Well, you're just changing a tenant space. We're not going 1848 01:21:43,609 --> 01:21:45,960 to revisit your parking lot. That's a done deal. 1849 01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:48,899 Well, in some cases, I think you might need that 1850 01:21:48,899 --> 01:21:49,960 opportunity. 1851 01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:53,039 And again, it would depend upon the location. I'm thinking 1852 01:21:53,039 --> 01:21:56,350 in terms of development, commercial development that's in 1853 01:21:56,350 --> 01:21:59,229 close proximity to a residential area where people could 1854 01:21:59,229 --> 01:21:59,960 walk to. 1855 01:21:59,960 --> 01:22:03,100 And it also the main road is where public transportation 1856 01:22:03,100 --> 01:22:03,960 can be used. 1857 01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:06,840 So that option is open where people suspect, well, I that 1858 01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,670 place is usually I have a hard time finding a parking place 1859 01:22:09,670 --> 01:22:09,960 . 1860 01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:12,500 I can either walk or I can take the bus or something like 1861 01:22:12,500 --> 01:22:12,960 that. 1862 01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:16,109 So you would look at it from that perspective to where it's 1863 01:22:16,109 --> 01:22:19,270 out there on five thirty five away from everything or even 1864 01:22:19,270 --> 01:22:20,960 public transportation. 1865 01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:24,960 And then, yeah, what that let's talk about. 1866 01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:27,960 Let's talk about that because all of these. Yeah. 1867 01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:32,960 Some of we let we allowed for that. Yeah. 1868 01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:34,960 Yeah, there is. There is some. 1869 01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:39,859 There's a whole new section for parking alternatives. What 1870 01:22:39,859 --> 01:22:44,689 is proposed before you today is much more flexible for both 1871 01:22:44,689 --> 01:22:47,770 the developer without compromising surrounding 1872 01:22:47,770 --> 01:22:48,960 neighborhoods. 1873 01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:51,960 It allows you to let the market decide in many cases. 1874 01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:56,000 There's an escape valve for the director to be able to look 1875 01:22:56,000 --> 01:22:59,960 at a study produced by whatever tenant it may be to say, 1876 01:22:59,960 --> 01:23:01,960 hey, here's exactly how much parking we need. 1877 01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:04,960 Fine. Let's have a conversation there. 1878 01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:08,449 There are alternatives that allow for shared parking and a 1879 01:23:08,449 --> 01:23:11,789 reduction in the amount of parking required for parking 1880 01:23:11,789 --> 01:23:13,960 near fixed transit facilities. 1881 01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:17,260 A reduction, 25 percent of your parking, realizing that, 1882 01:23:17,260 --> 01:23:18,960 hey, that's a real incentive. 1883 01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:22,390 If you're low located close to fixed transit line, you don 1884 01:23:22,390 --> 01:23:23,960 't need as much parking. 1885 01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:27,750 And I think 25 percent is pretty high, actually, and maybe 1886 01:23:27,750 --> 01:23:31,060 not that percentage of users of the site will actually be 1887 01:23:31,060 --> 01:23:32,960 on public transportation. 1888 01:23:32,960 --> 01:23:35,239 So it's a really good incentive for the development 1889 01:23:35,239 --> 01:23:35,960 community. 1890 01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:40,500 We're going to meet with them later today, actually, to 1891 01:23:40,500 --> 01:23:44,960 walk them through this this last module. 1892 01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:49,380 And and I think kind of take the feedback we hear from you. 1893 01:23:49,380 --> 01:23:53,899 I think the public gets really nervous in communities where 1894 01:23:53,899 --> 01:23:57,960 we say eliminate minimum parking requirements. 1895 01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:01,100 So we just need to find the middle ground and see what fits 1896 01:24:01,100 --> 01:24:01,960 for Denton. 1897 01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:05,380 The bottom line. This is a more flexible approach and 1898 01:24:05,380 --> 01:24:07,960 leaves you a little bit of wiggle room. 1899 01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:13,550 And as Tark said, we did adjust it to require less parking 1900 01:24:13,550 --> 01:24:15,960 for most for a lot of uses. 1901 01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:20,180 And that coupled with the flexibility standards to say you 1902 01:24:20,180 --> 01:24:23,960 're already not required to have as much as today. 1903 01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:27,260 But if you do these things, you can also reduce that number 1904 01:24:27,260 --> 01:24:28,960 by a certain percentage. 1905 01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:31,960 So there's a lot more flexibility. 1906 01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:39,449 And with the maximum increase, you can provide more. So we 1907 01:24:39,449 --> 01:24:40,960 'll see if it develops. 1908 01:24:40,960 --> 01:24:45,960 We did have as long as it's open and it's brought out. 1909 01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:50,020 We did have a conversation on council work session on 1910 01:24:50,020 --> 01:24:52,960 parking recently about multifamily. 1911 01:24:52,960 --> 01:24:56,390 And I believe the discussion direction was different than 1912 01:24:56,390 --> 01:24:59,960 this one space per bedroom because of how the mix goes. 1913 01:24:59,960 --> 01:25:03,880 If you're all one bedrooms, you've got thirty two one 1914 01:25:03,880 --> 01:25:04,960 bedrooms. 1915 01:25:04,960 --> 01:25:07,960 You're only required thirty two parking places. 1916 01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:11,560 If you're two bedrooms and you've got sixteen units, thirty 1917 01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:13,960 two parking places probably works. 1918 01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:17,189 But there's much more likely that you're going to have two 1919 01:25:17,189 --> 01:25:21,960 people living in a one bedroom than in. 1920 01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:27,109 And generally you only have to sometimes three. The third's 1921 01:25:27,109 --> 01:25:29,960 generally a child in a two bedroom. 1922 01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:32,949 I want to make sure that we go back and look at what 1923 01:25:32,949 --> 01:25:36,710 council recommended at that time and get that incorporated 1924 01:25:36,710 --> 01:25:36,960 in. 1925 01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:41,800 Yeah. And we just received that feedback. It didn't make it 1926 01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:43,960 into this draft. 1927 01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:47,100 I think we'll do a better job of incorporating those 1928 01:25:47,100 --> 01:25:49,960 discussions into the consolidated draft. 1929 01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:52,260 And I realize too there's going to be communities maybe 1930 01:25:52,260 --> 01:25:54,710 like Fortiness, but definitely on the East Coast where it's 1931 01:25:54,710 --> 01:25:58,350 denser areas where people aren't dependent on their cars as 1932 01:25:58,350 --> 01:25:58,960 we are here in Texas. 1933 01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:02,960 We love our automobiles. We love the privacy it gives us. 1934 01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:03,960 But you know things are changing. 1935 01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:07,659 We are becoming more dense and public transportation is a 1936 01:26:07,659 --> 01:26:12,119 vital part of it. So anyway, just want to see that 1937 01:26:12,119 --> 01:26:13,960 conversation. 1938 01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:18,920 I just want to throw out just as a like the parking lot 1939 01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:23,960 over off university for the where Kroger is and all that 1940 01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:23,960 stuff. 1941 01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:26,880 A lot of people talk about how large wasted space that 1942 01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:30,489 parking lot is. But two times a year when something's going 1943 01:26:30,489 --> 01:26:32,960 on in the fairgrounds that lot is full. 1944 01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:37,659 So I mean also looking at what is around and what can you 1945 01:26:37,659 --> 01:26:38,960 can co park. 1946 01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:43,640 You know other buildings can take advantage of that if that 1947 01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:47,380 would have been you know then where the people that go to 1948 01:26:47,380 --> 01:26:50,960 the fair or to those events would be in the neighborhood. 1949 01:26:50,960 --> 01:26:55,300 Yeah. So that parking lot does serve a purpose even though 1950 01:26:55,300 --> 01:26:57,960 it's not very pretty. That's right. 1951 01:26:57,960 --> 01:27:02,420 So I mean I understand going down to minimums all you know 1952 01:27:02,420 --> 01:27:06,779 and not having extra parking but looking at the area and 1953 01:27:06,779 --> 01:27:10,960 what could use that for certain is something worth. 1954 01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:13,960 Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't trying to create a one plan fits all. 1955 01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:19,369 But I think at least having that conversation and opening 1956 01:27:19,369 --> 01:27:23,310 it up where there are some areas where if you've got this 1957 01:27:23,310 --> 01:27:24,960 minimum it really doesn't apply. 1958 01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:28,560 And that may be they may be few and far apart. But that 1959 01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:31,960 that's an option that ought to be out there. 1960 01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:36,619 Well it doesn't apply downtown and that's that's aligned 1961 01:27:36,619 --> 01:27:40,960 with most downtowns at least in more modern codes. 1962 01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:44,390 You don't want to get into the business of regulating how 1963 01:27:44,390 --> 01:27:47,909 downtowns manage parking that lives outside of a code and 1964 01:27:47,909 --> 01:27:51,369 more of a transportation management and parking demand 1965 01:27:51,369 --> 01:27:52,960 management system. 1966 01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:56,529 There are ways you can meter and permit and collect fees in 1967 01:27:56,529 --> 01:27:58,960 lieu to build parking structures. 1968 01:27:58,960 --> 01:28:02,329 Lots of different ways to make sure that you have enough 1969 01:28:02,329 --> 01:28:05,949 space requiring parking in some locations like that means 1970 01:28:05,949 --> 01:28:09,479 you're going to end up with surface parking lots that take 1971 01:28:09,479 --> 01:28:12,970 up viable retail space and that create character of a 1972 01:28:12,970 --> 01:28:13,960 downtown. 1973 01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:18,270 So we've at least got that in there. I'm hearing from Larry 1974 01:28:18,270 --> 01:28:22,609 especially that hey let's have the conversation at a bigger 1975 01:28:22,609 --> 01:28:26,949 scale with Denton community about maybe reducing minimums 1976 01:28:26,949 --> 01:28:30,960 maybe getting rid of minimums and just setting a maximum 1977 01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:34,960 and letting the market decide how much we should be parked. 1978 01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:37,850 That's going to be problematic for things like multifamily 1979 01:28:37,850 --> 01:28:40,960 and residential. You've got an SRO challenge here. 1980 01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:45,079 That's probably where you draw the line. So our job now is 1981 01:28:45,079 --> 01:28:49,210 to take those comments find the middle ground and see what 1982 01:28:49,210 --> 01:28:49,960 works. 1983 01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:53,960 It scares me to death. It should keep you up. 1984 01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:58,119 We have parking problems all over town today with the 1985 01:28:58,119 --> 01:29:02,619 exception we can pick the few large parking lots but for 1986 01:29:02,619 --> 01:29:05,960 the most part it's parking problems. 1987 01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:11,369 But finding credits finding incentives finding some way to 1988 01:29:11,369 --> 01:29:13,960 offset that absolutely. 1989 01:29:13,960 --> 01:29:18,960 And I think those are built in. 1990 01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:21,960 Guys you're not going to figure it all out for every use. 1991 01:29:21,960 --> 01:29:23,960 And five years from now. 1992 01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:27,630 It's going to be before the dais again and say, we don't 1993 01:29:27,630 --> 01:29:32,399 have enough for this particular thing that we didn't think 1994 01:29:32,399 --> 01:29:32,960 about. 1995 01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:37,619 We've got too much. And now let's change the standard again 1996 01:29:37,619 --> 01:29:37,960 . 1997 01:29:37,960 --> 01:29:41,180 But you're asking the right questions and I can tee that up 1998 01:29:41,180 --> 01:29:45,960 tonight too and see what gets thrown. 1999 01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:48,380 So we're going to let the developers decide how much 2000 01:29:48,380 --> 01:29:49,960 parking they should provide. 2001 01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:53,960 I'll hide behind Ron. 2002 01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:56,960 Okay. 2003 01:29:56,960 --> 01:30:03,079 I just cover a couple of other things on the parking. One 2004 01:30:03,079 --> 01:30:05,100 was the loading facilities loading happens or deliveries 2005 01:30:05,100 --> 01:30:06,960 rather happen more frequently smaller trucks. 2006 01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:10,090 This is no surprise to you. You see the Amazon trucks. They 2007 01:30:10,090 --> 01:30:10,960 're not even marked anymore. 2008 01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:13,960 See FedEx trucks UPS. 2009 01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:18,090 They have better ways than big semi trucks with trailers 2010 01:30:18,090 --> 01:30:21,960 for delivering goods, especially for smaller businesses. 2011 01:30:21,960 --> 01:30:24,989 So we have exempted loading off street loading for those 2012 01:30:24,989 --> 01:30:28,960 really small buildings, less than 10,000 square feet. 2013 01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:33,229 That's a change. It's a change that's follows what most 2014 01:30:33,229 --> 01:30:34,960 communities do. 2015 01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:38,960 Some exempt them even up to 25,000 square feet. 2016 01:30:38,960 --> 01:30:41,840 You're not going to let the Home Depot come in and not 2017 01:30:41,840 --> 01:30:44,960 provide some some loading births or the Wal-Mart. 2018 01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:48,539 This takes care of the small stuff because requiring an off 2019 01:30:48,539 --> 01:30:51,810 street loading birth, you now have no room to put your 2020 01:30:51,810 --> 01:30:55,430 actual building or off street parking or landscaping, all 2021 01:30:55,430 --> 01:31:00,960 the other things that you require on a site. 2022 01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:06,029 And in addition to not requiring minimum parking in your 2023 01:31:06,029 --> 01:31:11,310 downtown, we've exempted non residential uses with less 2024 01:31:11,310 --> 01:31:14,960 than 5000 square foot lot. That's a very small lot. 2025 01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:19,960 Not sure how many of those you even have at this point. 2026 01:31:19,960 --> 01:31:23,590 If you were to develop or redevelop this takes care of kind 2027 01:31:23,590 --> 01:31:27,159 of a main street feel where you've got buildings up close 2028 01:31:27,159 --> 01:31:30,960 to the street. The lots are narrow and not very deep. 2029 01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:33,510 And if you require a certain the same amount of parking 2030 01:31:33,510 --> 01:31:34,960 that you would otherwise. 2031 01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:38,510 Well, I can't do the business. I actually can't move into 2032 01:31:38,510 --> 01:31:40,960 that space because I'm only this wide. 2033 01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:45,960 I've got room for one parallel space or 245 degree angle, 2034 01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:47,960 maybe 390. 2035 01:31:47,960 --> 01:31:49,960 So that that's the purpose there. 2036 01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:52,960 And again, taking care of parking. 2037 01:31:52,960 --> 01:31:57,569 One way is through the table. The other is through managing 2038 01:31:57,569 --> 01:32:00,960 your parking around the community. 2039 01:32:00,960 --> 01:32:03,779 I don't want to leave this page because the next one is a 2040 01:32:03,779 --> 01:32:10,119 different topic. Are there other questions about parking 2041 01:32:10,119 --> 01:32:13,960 questions concerns comments. 2042 01:32:13,960 --> 01:32:22,960 Fences, just kidding. 2043 01:32:22,960 --> 01:32:31,960 Not contentious at all as building design standards right. 2044 01:32:31,960 --> 01:32:34,960 For legal. 2045 01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:39,670 Councilman Briggs has to leave if that leaves me is the 2046 01:32:39,670 --> 01:32:43,960 only council person we no longer have a forum. 2047 01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:49,960 Decisions. 2048 01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:56,960 Okay. 2049 01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:58,960 All right. 2050 01:32:58,960 --> 01:33:05,460 And then why would why you interrupt for next week. Are we 2051 01:33:05,460 --> 01:33:10,069 good with meeting next week. If I can just get us a date 2052 01:33:10,069 --> 01:33:10,960 out there. 2053 01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:12,960 I'll shoot you an email. I'm sorry. I just got your email. 2054 01:33:12,960 --> 01:33:14,960 No, it's okay. That's okay. 2055 01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:18,420 And again, just trying to use a tool so that way we can 2056 01:33:18,420 --> 01:33:23,960 kind of work through that. 2057 01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:27,520 It looks like Mondays and Keely I think Mondays are a 2058 01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:30,960 problem for you. Correct. 2059 01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:31,960 I'm okay. 2060 01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:34,960 Oh, you are. 2061 01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:37,960 I think. 2062 01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:41,289 When I asked the first time Monday with Monday, Wednesday, 2063 01:33:41,289 --> 01:33:44,560 Friday, Monday was preferred because I was reminded when I 2064 01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:45,960 talked to the mayor. 2065 01:33:45,960 --> 01:33:48,960 Mondays were good with him as well. 2066 01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:53,960 I don't know if we're prepared to. 2067 01:33:53,960 --> 01:33:56,960 To meet on Monday. 2068 01:33:56,960 --> 01:33:59,960 I can make it. 2069 01:33:59,960 --> 01:34:02,960 After you. 2070 01:34:02,960 --> 01:34:12,960 But you were saying morning's problems. 2071 01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:18,960 I can't do my day after I have to be morning. 2072 01:34:18,960 --> 01:34:22,960 Because this is not permanent. 2073 01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:25,960 It's going to be for a couple of weeks here. 2074 01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:27,960 Or this at least this next. 2075 01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:33,960 I can be flexible. 2076 01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:42,960 Because Wednesday is the service. 2077 01:34:42,960 --> 01:34:44,960 City service awards. 2078 01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:54,960 Oh, fun. 2079 01:34:54,960 --> 01:35:00,960 Is there barbecue. 2080 01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:06,960 I'm okay with it. 2081 01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:10,960 Thursday. 2082 01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:11,960 Thursday. 2083 01:35:11,960 --> 01:35:15,119 I'm okay with it this week and that's probably the only 2084 01:35:15,119 --> 01:35:18,960 Thursday of the month that I'm good with. 2085 01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:31,960 Yeah. 2086 01:35:31,960 --> 01:35:35,960 Morning it is. 2087 01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:37,960 What's morning? 2088 01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:38,960 10. 2089 01:35:38,960 --> 01:35:41,960 10 going once, going twice. 2090 01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:43,960 Not before 9. 2091 01:35:43,960 --> 01:35:48,960 I got to get the dog. 2092 01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:49,960 10 o'clock it is. 2093 01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:51,960 10 o'clock on Thursday. 2094 01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:56,960 I'll send the calendar. 2095 01:35:56,960 --> 01:35:58,960 Thank you. 2096 01:35:58,960 --> 01:36:02,729 So I'm going to speak in an auctioneer voice now to get 2097 01:36:02,729 --> 01:36:05,960 building design in before you have to go. 2098 01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:09,460 We've organized it very differently from how you have it 2099 01:36:09,460 --> 01:36:09,960 now. 2100 01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:11,960 What page are you on? 2101 01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:13,960 Let's go to page 107. 2102 01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:16,960 That's the purpose statement for site and building design. 2103 01:36:16,960 --> 01:36:21,960 So there are standards that apply to all new development. 2104 01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:24,300 There are standards that apply to single family duplex and 2105 01:36:24,300 --> 01:36:24,960 townhomes. 2106 01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:27,960 So we're talking about people living in houses. 2107 01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:31,960 We're talking about different standards for multi-family, 2108 01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:34,960 different standards for non-residential and mixed uses. 2109 01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:38,670 Those buildings have a different feel and need to create a 2110 01:36:38,670 --> 01:36:42,500 different environment at the streetscape level and how they 2111 01:36:42,500 --> 01:36:44,960 interact with people on the street. 2112 01:36:44,960 --> 01:36:48,409 And then even more additional standards for the mixed use 2113 01:36:48,409 --> 01:36:50,960 neighborhood and mixed use downtown. 2114 01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:54,369 Now, that doesn't mean they're overregulated from what you 2115 01:36:54,369 --> 01:36:54,960 do now. 2116 01:36:54,960 --> 01:36:58,670 It just means those pedestrian oriented districts, which is 2117 01:36:58,670 --> 01:37:03,409 what you call them today, have a different set of character 2118 01:37:03,409 --> 01:37:03,960 standards, 2119 01:37:03,960 --> 01:37:05,960 a different set of regulations. 2120 01:37:05,960 --> 01:37:10,619 And furthermore, on this topic, the city is currently 2121 01:37:10,619 --> 01:37:14,350 working on a set of draft design guidelines and/or 2122 01:37:14,350 --> 01:37:18,850 standards that would apply to the square and immediately 2123 01:37:18,850 --> 01:37:21,960 beyond the square, north, south, east and west. 2124 01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:25,869 Some of those components that you just can't apply a one 2125 01:37:25,869 --> 01:37:28,960 size fits all across the city of Denton. 2126 01:37:28,960 --> 01:37:33,670 The square is different. The immediate vicinity around the 2127 01:37:33,670 --> 01:37:38,010 square just has a different feel and character and should 2128 01:37:38,010 --> 01:37:39,960 be regulated as such. 2129 01:37:39,960 --> 01:37:43,640 So expect further discussion on that. How would that tool 2130 01:37:43,640 --> 01:37:47,300 work? What do those standards look like is under 2131 01:37:47,300 --> 01:37:48,960 development now? 2132 01:37:48,960 --> 01:37:53,810 Under council new business, I guess a couple of weeks back, 2133 01:37:53,810 --> 01:37:57,779 I requested because part of the oak hickory is in my 2134 01:37:57,779 --> 01:38:01,119 district. I know that there are other districts that you 2135 01:38:01,119 --> 01:38:02,960 mentioned that are off the square. 2136 01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:06,250 I just wanted to make sure that you guys were going to talk 2137 01:38:06,250 --> 01:38:09,689 with those, the people that are in those districts 2138 01:38:09,689 --> 01:38:13,880 specifically when you're implementing design standards for 2139 01:38:13,880 --> 01:38:14,960 their area. 2140 01:38:14,960 --> 01:38:17,689 We're not going to talk to them individually. We're not 2141 01:38:17,689 --> 01:38:20,270 staff is probably working with them on other planning 2142 01:38:20,270 --> 01:38:20,960 efforts. 2143 01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:24,460 The way we have captured that very issue is that you have a 2144 01:38:24,460 --> 01:38:28,100 lot of neighborhoods and overlays overlay districts that 2145 01:38:28,100 --> 01:38:31,960 have their own rules and standards within that district. 2146 01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:33,960 We did not touch those. 2147 01:38:33,960 --> 01:38:36,420 Rather, we said these site and building design standards 2148 01:38:36,420 --> 01:38:37,960 apply if you're doing new stuff. 2149 01:38:37,960 --> 01:38:41,529 But if you're in one of those districts and these conflict 2150 01:38:41,529 --> 01:38:45,199 with those standards, those overlay district standards 2151 01:38:45,199 --> 01:38:46,960 apply, not these ones. 2152 01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:51,220 So that we don't want to disrupt all of the work that's 2153 01:38:51,220 --> 01:38:56,960 been done in those important neighborhoods. 2154 01:38:56,960 --> 01:38:58,960 We say any overlay. 2155 01:38:58,960 --> 01:39:09,819 And there's also other districts being created to at the 2156 01:39:09,819 --> 01:39:11,960 moment. 2157 01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:15,979 Yeah, there's going to be recommendations and policy out of 2158 01:39:15,979 --> 01:39:19,960 that small area plan that might require changes to either a 2159 01:39:19,960 --> 01:39:24,270 zoning district regulations overlay regulations or site 2160 01:39:24,270 --> 01:39:26,960 design standards in particular. 2161 01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:32,689 So we have to let those policies, you know, make their way 2162 01:39:32,689 --> 01:39:37,500 onto the page and be memorialized and then adjust 2163 01:39:37,500 --> 01:39:38,960 accordingly. 2164 01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:44,430 From a looking at it from a national standard or something 2165 01:39:44,430 --> 01:39:46,960 trying to figure out if this is unique to denting or not. 2166 01:39:46,960 --> 01:39:48,960 We have single family. We have two flexes. 2167 01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:51,960 And then you got a multi family. 2168 01:39:51,960 --> 01:39:55,050 And so anything that's a three plex or four plex is 2169 01:39:55,050 --> 01:39:58,779 considered multi family. Is that pretty well actually we 2170 01:39:58,779 --> 01:40:02,210 just expanded that list through the addendum for that very 2171 01:40:02,210 --> 01:40:05,300 reason that try plexes and four plexes are are kind of an 2172 01:40:05,300 --> 01:40:09,329 in between for the missing middle housing is a term that's 2173 01:40:09,329 --> 01:40:10,960 been thrown around a lot. 2174 01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:14,909 Don't don't back us into a corner of we're either this this 2175 01:40:14,909 --> 01:40:18,960 or that there's lots of different ways to put families into 2176 01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:19,960 housing. 2177 01:40:19,960 --> 01:40:22,699 And so we've added a couple of additional uses in the table 2178 01:40:22,699 --> 01:40:22,960 . 2179 01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:25,960 Okay, we do have those added now in the end. Yes. 2180 01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:29,960 But they haven't seen it yet. Okay. Okay. Okay. 2181 01:40:29,960 --> 01:40:35,960 Good. That's the last meeting. 2182 01:40:35,960 --> 01:40:36,960 Okay. 2183 01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:42,960 You you are unique in Denton, but not in that regard. 2184 01:40:42,960 --> 01:40:46,869 And also in the environmental committee, we did talk about 2185 01:40:46,869 --> 01:40:50,699 the different types of housing and would like to talk about 2186 01:40:50,699 --> 01:40:54,710 requiring recycling containers as well and try to implement 2187 01:40:54,710 --> 01:40:58,649 that into this new code for new development, new multi 2188 01:40:58,649 --> 01:41:03,449 family, and then distinguishing those like like the four p 2189 01:41:03,449 --> 01:41:04,960 lex could use the carts. 2190 01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:10,689 But you know, like have those, because I do know that when 2191 01:41:10,689 --> 01:41:13,409 it's in this design, you have to make room for dumpster and 2192 01:41:13,409 --> 01:41:13,960 recycling. 2193 01:41:13,960 --> 01:41:21,960 It came out of committee that we wanted that requirement 2194 01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:23,960 for for multi family. 2195 01:41:23,960 --> 01:41:27,960 Is that really where you were going. Yes. 2196 01:41:27,960 --> 01:41:33,960 So as we talk about multi family is right. 2197 01:41:33,960 --> 01:41:37,880 That's fine. Most of the time, that type of requirement is 2198 01:41:37,880 --> 01:41:43,960 not in the development code. It's not a land use. 2199 01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:44,960 Yeah. 2200 01:41:44,960 --> 01:41:47,649 But when we're talking about the screening, which we do, we 2201 01:41:47,649 --> 01:41:50,779 talked about how to screen refuse containers. That's a big 2202 01:41:50,779 --> 01:41:54,960 deal here in Denton, we've keep hearing about the trash. 2203 01:41:54,960 --> 01:42:00,149 And at least accommodating for multiple bins, one for 2204 01:42:00,149 --> 01:42:03,960 recycling one for waste management. I think there are some 2205 01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:03,960 components that could be inserted here. 2206 01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:04,960 I just wanted to bring that up. 2207 01:42:04,960 --> 01:42:05,960 Yeah. 2208 01:42:05,960 --> 01:42:09,770 And I know that we were we wanted to be able to implement 2209 01:42:09,770 --> 01:42:13,560 because council got several, several letters about 2210 01:42:13,560 --> 01:42:17,949 introducing recycling to multi family. And it's something 2211 01:42:17,949 --> 01:42:22,170 that we've been talking about. So wherever we put it, the 2212 01:42:22,170 --> 01:42:24,960 conversation needs to be started. 2213 01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:26,960 Yes. Okay. 2214 01:42:26,960 --> 01:42:28,960 Is that correct? 2215 01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:32,960 Yeah. 2216 01:42:32,960 --> 01:42:36,960 So there's any other direction. 2217 01:42:36,960 --> 01:42:40,409 You want to provide for staff or comfortable having it, you 2218 01:42:40,409 --> 01:42:45,960 know, as we have a core. 2219 01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:52,960 I said it all. 2220 01:42:52,960 --> 01:42:54,960 Yeah, I'm gonna change numbers. 2221 01:42:54,960 --> 01:43:03,960 I'm gonna change offices too. 2222 01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:09,960 Just basically on design standards. 2223 01:43:09,960 --> 01:43:25,029 There's a lot of minimal standards. I will just say that 2224 01:43:25,029 --> 01:43:25,250 compared to a lot of communities. We do. There are a lot of 2225 01:43:25,250 --> 01:43:25,479 standards, but they're not requiring an awful lot. It's 2226 01:43:25,479 --> 01:43:25,720 basically, think about the buildings that you like in Dent 2227 01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:25,960 on. 2228 01:43:25,960 --> 01:43:30,220 And those buildings meet these minimum design standards and 2229 01:43:30,220 --> 01:43:34,560 they exceed those minimum design standards. There might be 2230 01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:38,550 some areas that you think are a little more stringent than 2231 01:43:38,550 --> 01:43:40,470 they should be. And we just would like that feedback, but 2232 01:43:40,470 --> 01:43:42,960 ultimately covering the elements that you see listed here. 2233 01:43:42,960 --> 01:43:46,989 If you've got multiple buildings on a site, it's important 2234 01:43:46,989 --> 01:43:50,920 to think about how they're situated on the site, not all cl 2235 01:43:50,920 --> 01:43:54,779 umped in the middle, like the traditional old mall, but 2236 01:43:54,779 --> 01:43:59,300 rather creating a space that, you know, captures views or 2237 01:43:59,300 --> 01:44:02,960 creates kind of a main street feel. 2238 01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:07,829 It's adjacent to prominent intersections, things like that, 2239 01:44:07,829 --> 01:44:09,960 facing courtyard space. 2240 01:44:09,960 --> 01:44:14,220 The mass and form of buildings is important, articulating 2241 01:44:14,220 --> 01:44:18,390 walls, stepping back different portions of the building 2242 01:44:18,390 --> 01:44:22,119 just to make sure that you've got some architectural 2243 01:44:22,119 --> 01:44:24,960 variety and projections going on. 2244 01:44:24,960 --> 01:44:28,779 Building materials are one of the most important things 2245 01:44:28,779 --> 01:44:32,420 that even a community who's not doing a lot of building 2246 01:44:32,420 --> 01:44:36,319 design regulation, they still do care about the types of 2247 01:44:36,319 --> 01:44:38,960 things that you use on a building. 2248 01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:42,670 Nothing in there that's really earth-shattering compared to 2249 01:44:42,670 --> 01:44:47,170 what you have now. We'll probably talk about, maybe talk 2250 01:44:47,170 --> 01:44:52,050 more at length once those downtown standards come out about 2251 01:44:52,050 --> 01:44:56,960 some other creative materials that may be appropriate. 2252 01:44:56,960 --> 01:45:00,569 Transparency in windows is the final element in site and 2253 01:45:00,569 --> 01:45:01,960 building design. 2254 01:45:01,960 --> 01:45:04,640 It's important to think about breaking up, not only 2255 01:45:04,640 --> 01:45:07,560 breaking up the physical mass of the building, but being 2256 01:45:07,560 --> 01:45:11,000 able to see through it and walk through it. Having windows 2257 01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:14,680 and door openings creates a much different space in the 2258 01:45:14,680 --> 01:45:17,960 public realm than just a blank wall or facade. 2259 01:45:17,960 --> 01:45:21,409 And so we've included some minimum standards there for 2260 01:45:21,409 --> 01:45:25,090 mostly first story, but also some standards for the upper 2261 01:45:25,090 --> 01:45:28,770 stories in the mixed use districts, making sure that it's 2262 01:45:28,770 --> 01:45:30,960 not just blank walls up there. 2263 01:45:30,960 --> 01:45:34,729 And you're not going to get, most developers won't do that 2264 01:45:34,729 --> 01:45:38,409 anyhow, but if you don't say don't do it, then they would 2265 01:45:38,409 --> 01:45:40,960 ultimately be allowed to do that. 2266 01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:49,289 So preventing the least aesthetic building was really the 2267 01:45:49,289 --> 01:45:50,960 message here. 2268 01:45:50,960 --> 01:45:53,960 Raise the bar for quality. 2269 01:45:53,960 --> 01:46:00,560 There's a lot in here. Do you all have questions just right 2270 01:46:00,560 --> 01:46:06,260 off the bat about any of the site and building design 2271 01:46:06,260 --> 01:46:07,960 standards? 2272 01:46:07,960 --> 01:46:12,960 Okay, Scott, did you want to say anything more about around 2273 01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:16,960 the square? 2274 01:46:16,960 --> 01:46:23,439 I guess beyond the fact that next week, is it next week P&Z 2275 01:46:23,439 --> 01:46:27,029 ? Yes, next week. Next week's P&Z we're going to talk about 2276 01:46:27,029 --> 01:46:28,960 design standards for the square. 2277 01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:36,079 You may have seen this material already. We have had four 2278 01:46:36,079 --> 01:46:38,960 workshops. 2279 01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:43,909 We first went, let me back up give a little bit of history. 2280 01:46:43,909 --> 01:46:48,960 Ultimately, I was given direction because of the mini mall 2281 01:46:48,960 --> 01:46:51,560 and what happened with the mini mall and where we're going 2282 01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:53,960 to rebuild, what we're going to rebuild. 2283 01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:58,079 And we were talking about we have little to no standards, 2284 01:46:58,079 --> 01:47:01,960 so it created some frustration within the community. 2285 01:47:01,960 --> 01:47:05,470 What we're going to do, how we're going to regulate, why we 2286 01:47:05,470 --> 01:47:06,960 let them tear it down. 2287 01:47:06,960 --> 01:47:09,359 Putting a historic overlay on that is going to be very 2288 01:47:09,359 --> 01:47:11,960 challenging, so we're just taking some baby steps. 2289 01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:15,399 The first step in that is to say that we recognize, 2290 01:47:15,399 --> 01:47:19,500 identify that the square is unique, very unique, and that 2291 01:47:19,500 --> 01:47:21,960 we want to create that overlay. 2292 01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:26,970 Creating that overlay is the square and a block beyond the 2293 01:47:26,970 --> 01:47:31,960 square, the Mews streets, what you may know them as. 2294 01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:35,409 Cartwrights is a very easy example of they have a front 2295 01:47:35,409 --> 01:47:36,960 door and a back door. 2296 01:47:36,960 --> 01:47:40,460 Just treating that square as the block behind it and the fa 2297 01:47:40,460 --> 01:47:42,960 çade that is contained within that. 2298 01:47:42,960 --> 01:47:48,619 We started with the property owners in that area. We cast a 2299 01:47:48,619 --> 01:47:53,220 broader net than that to say should the square be this area 2300 01:47:53,220 --> 01:47:57,069 out here, which might encompass four or five blocks beyond 2301 01:47:57,069 --> 01:47:57,960 the square? 2302 01:47:57,960 --> 01:48:01,960 Or should the square be the square and that block? 2303 01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:05,720 So we met with the property owners first, had a very good 2304 01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:06,960 conversation. 2305 01:48:06,960 --> 01:48:10,350 It was a couple hours long, kind of scaled that back to 2306 01:48:10,350 --> 01:48:11,960 where we're at today. 2307 01:48:11,960 --> 01:48:18,960 We met with a couple other downtown business groups. 2308 01:48:18,960 --> 01:48:28,409 We met with the HLC and so we're going to go to PDZ and the 2309 01:48:28,409 --> 01:48:31,489 council and then we're going to come forth with a 2310 01:48:31,489 --> 01:48:34,619 recommendation for that overlay, what that's going to look 2311 01:48:34,619 --> 01:48:34,960 like. 2312 01:48:34,960 --> 01:48:38,689 And really that conversation is going to surround the back 2313 01:48:38,689 --> 01:48:41,960 of guidelines or standards or a hybrid thereof. 2314 01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:49,579 So meaning is it a shall or a may? And it is a means to 2315 01:48:49,579 --> 01:48:53,329 preserve the character of the square without tying it to it 2316 01:48:53,329 --> 01:48:56,960 being a historical property. 2317 01:48:56,960 --> 01:49:01,279 So those rules are very different, but the concept is the 2318 01:49:01,279 --> 01:49:01,960 same. 2319 01:49:01,960 --> 01:49:06,899 Looking at timeless design and then once we get beyond the 2320 01:49:06,899 --> 01:49:11,609 square then we can look and start looking at what does it 2321 01:49:11,609 --> 01:49:14,960 look like to the east of the square? 2322 01:49:14,960 --> 01:49:17,930 What do we need to do there? And it would probably follow 2323 01:49:17,930 --> 01:49:19,960 very closely to the square, but it's going to be different 2324 01:49:19,960 --> 01:49:21,960 because it's more industrial feel. 2325 01:49:21,960 --> 01:49:25,899 North, south and west is going to have a very different 2326 01:49:25,899 --> 01:49:29,869 character and then it will really encompass the entire 2327 01:49:29,869 --> 01:49:33,560 central business district and really we're evaluating the 2328 01:49:33,560 --> 01:49:35,960 central business district and what that should entail. 2329 01:49:35,960 --> 01:49:40,100 So kind of a very high level in the next two weeks I'll get 2330 01:49:40,100 --> 01:49:44,720 P&Z's feedback and council's feedback and I'll be providing 2331 01:49:44,720 --> 01:49:48,880 all of those comments ultimately to council of what the 2332 01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:51,960 outcomes from those meetings were. 2333 01:49:51,960 --> 01:49:55,670 We've had overwhelming support. We've had no one that's 2334 01:49:55,670 --> 01:50:00,170 opposed to doing what it is that we're proposing to do. So 2335 01:50:00,170 --> 01:50:04,149 I think we're on the right track and we might need to get 2336 01:50:04,149 --> 01:50:04,960 ready to be. 2337 01:50:04,960 --> 01:50:08,619 I like that. Where are you going with this? I just want to 2338 01:50:08,619 --> 01:50:11,859 clarify the historical concept, the element, the historical 2339 01:50:11,859 --> 01:50:15,399 element isn't being totally removed. It's just not going to 2340 01:50:15,399 --> 01:50:18,960 be the primary concept for this overlay district. 2341 01:50:18,960 --> 01:50:24,390 Correct. Whatever is deemed historic today stays. All of 2342 01:50:24,390 --> 01:50:29,420 the work that's been done or any future work to be done, it 2343 01:50:29,420 --> 01:50:34,020 may help in fact to do that because we define the area a 2344 01:50:34,020 --> 01:50:37,960 little more closely and then we can have those more 2345 01:50:37,960 --> 01:50:38,960 challenging conversations. 2346 01:50:38,960 --> 01:50:42,699 But today there are no design standards so anybody can 2347 01:50:42,699 --> 01:50:46,609 build anything that they want or demolish whatever they 2348 01:50:46,609 --> 01:50:50,329 want if it's not already done. This process will really 2349 01:50:50,329 --> 01:50:53,960 come up with a certificate of appropriateness. 2350 01:50:53,960 --> 01:50:57,510 So before you can do whatever it is you're proposing to do, 2351 01:50:57,510 --> 01:51:01,170 you'll bring it to staff. Staff will determine whether or 2352 01:51:01,170 --> 01:51:05,020 not that that's appropriate. If it's a denial, the question 2353 01:51:05,020 --> 01:51:08,220 is whether it goes to a group of the business owners or 2354 01:51:08,220 --> 01:51:11,670 those property owners in that area, whether we have a 2355 01:51:11,670 --> 01:51:14,510 design professional on that, whatever that makeup might 2356 01:51:14,510 --> 01:51:15,960 look like. 2357 01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:22,579 Some appeals board or whether that goes to HLC or ZEA or 2358 01:51:22,579 --> 01:51:28,560 some other body, council. But I think the overwhelming 2359 01:51:28,560 --> 01:51:33,060 support up until we went to HLC was having that as a really 2360 01:51:33,060 --> 01:51:37,880 a community focused meeting the stakeholders, those that 2361 01:51:37,880 --> 01:51:42,260 have a vested interest in the square, be the ones that say 2362 01:51:42,260 --> 01:51:44,960 what's appropriate or not appropriate. 2363 01:51:44,960 --> 01:51:48,399 And so right now it's just it's the square and a block 2364 01:51:48,399 --> 01:51:50,960 around. Correct. Correct. 2365 01:51:50,960 --> 01:51:54,960 Yes, this is the first phase. 2366 01:51:54,960 --> 01:51:56,960 Hickory there. 2367 01:51:56,960 --> 01:52:16,029 Well, and again, no, and we recognize that. But if we don't 2368 01:52:16,029 --> 01:52:16,430 start somewhere, the larger the area, the more stakeholders 2369 01:52:16,430 --> 01:52:16,819 , the more stakeholders, the greater diversity, the greater 2370 01:52:16,819 --> 01:52:17,180 diversity in what the buildings are, the more challenges 2371 01:52:17,180 --> 01:52:17,529 you have. So if we want something immediate and concise, 2372 01:52:17,529 --> 01:52:20,920 then we need to start. And so that's why we tried to draw, 2373 01:52:20,920 --> 01:52:22,960 just create the box. 2374 01:52:22,960 --> 01:52:27,229 So in terms of how that gets folded into the DDC really 2375 01:52:27,229 --> 01:52:32,159 depends on the result of the upcoming conversations. If 2376 01:52:32,159 --> 01:52:37,010 they are truly standards, then they should be rolled into 2377 01:52:37,010 --> 01:52:40,670 the DDC. If they are truly just guidelines, then we 2378 01:52:40,670 --> 01:52:44,210 typically recommend leaving that outside of the code or 2379 01:52:44,210 --> 01:52:47,960 including as an appendix or something. 2380 01:52:47,960 --> 01:52:52,960 So TBD. 2381 01:52:52,960 --> 01:52:56,220 We got five minutes. I think that's enough time to to 2382 01:52:56,220 --> 01:53:00,489 finish up building design and and at a high level, give you 2383 01:53:00,489 --> 01:53:05,029 an introduction to the lighting component key changes. I 2384 01:53:05,029 --> 01:53:08,710 think we've talked about most of this, just allowing the 2385 01:53:08,710 --> 01:53:12,960 director, the ability to approve alternatives for infill 2386 01:53:12,960 --> 01:53:14,960 and redevelopment. 2387 01:53:14,960 --> 01:53:17,909 An application is before Planning Commission or the City 2388 01:53:17,909 --> 01:53:21,720 Council as well. Just having the escape valve to say, yeah, 2389 01:53:21,720 --> 01:53:25,829 this is a common sense approach. We think it still meets 2390 01:53:25,829 --> 01:53:27,960 the intent of the code. 2391 01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:30,479 New standards for multi building developments. We talked 2392 01:53:30,479 --> 01:53:33,949 about that new standards for the MN and MD. We talked about 2393 01:53:33,949 --> 01:53:37,609 that as well. One of those major components of creating an 2394 01:53:37,609 --> 01:53:41,050 active streetscape is making sure that the buildings are 2395 01:53:41,050 --> 01:53:42,960 close enough to the street. 2396 01:53:42,960 --> 01:53:46,000 So we have setback requirements in most places that say, 2397 01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:48,819 don't be too close to the street. Well, these are different 2398 01:53:48,819 --> 01:53:52,869 . These say have most of your building actually up towards 2399 01:53:52,869 --> 01:53:56,869 the street, because that's what makes a viable mixed use 2400 01:53:56,869 --> 01:53:59,960 zoning district in terms of character. 2401 01:53:59,960 --> 01:54:03,890 And you see that around your square. You see that in a lot 2402 01:54:03,890 --> 01:54:09,210 of places you see that in a lot of the new stuff that has 2403 01:54:09,210 --> 01:54:10,960 gone up and done. 2404 01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:15,960 Lighting, you have very few standards for lighting today. 2405 01:54:15,960 --> 01:54:22,289 So we haven't really, we haven't really departed from the 2406 01:54:22,289 --> 01:54:26,180 minimal standards approach, but inserted some some basics, 2407 01:54:26,180 --> 01:54:30,090 such as don't spill over onto your neighbor's property. So 2408 01:54:30,090 --> 01:54:33,329 setting a minimum foot candle standard at the property line 2409 01:54:33,329 --> 01:54:34,960 of one foot candle. 2410 01:54:34,960 --> 01:54:38,250 That's fairly dim. It's dim enough to where you're not 2411 01:54:38,250 --> 01:54:41,210 going to be disturbing your neighbors, your code 2412 01:54:41,210 --> 01:54:44,310 enforcement staff is equipped to handle that type of 2413 01:54:44,310 --> 01:54:48,050 calculation and do measurements, should that be necessary, 2414 01:54:48,050 --> 01:54:52,529 but just giving an outlet for the developer to show to 2415 01:54:52,529 --> 01:54:57,960 staff and ultimately to the final decision making body that 2416 01:54:57,960 --> 01:54:58,960 . 2417 01:54:58,960 --> 01:55:02,039 Okay, here's, here's everything we've taken into account. 2418 01:55:02,039 --> 01:55:04,960 Here's the type of lights that we're going to use on site. 2419 01:55:04,960 --> 01:55:07,880 They're shining downward, they're downcast, they're shield 2420 01:55:07,880 --> 01:55:10,960 ed lights, we're not spilling over onto adjacent properties. 2421 01:55:10,960 --> 01:55:14,739 Fine. So these minimum standards just allow you and your 2422 01:55:14,739 --> 01:55:17,500 staff to check that box to make sure that you're not 2423 01:55:17,500 --> 01:55:18,960 running into issues. 2424 01:55:18,960 --> 01:55:23,720 Again, you can get very complex with lighting standards. I 2425 01:55:23,720 --> 01:55:27,720 'm working in Sedona right now, and that is a dark sky 2426 01:55:27,720 --> 01:55:28,960 community. 2427 01:55:28,960 --> 01:55:35,960 This is not that type of approach. This is the basic stuff. 2428 01:55:35,960 --> 01:55:39,909 So with a couple of minutes left, let's just open it up. 2429 01:55:39,909 --> 01:55:43,880 Talk about any well actually no sorry, let's, let's get 2430 01:55:43,880 --> 01:55:47,449 into the zoning map because that was on the agenda is 2431 01:55:47,449 --> 01:55:50,960 something that would be introduced today. 2432 01:55:50,960 --> 01:55:54,460 I don't know if you all have spent any time with it, but it 2433 01:55:54,460 --> 01:55:58,060 's up on the city website, so you could just search zoning 2434 01:55:58,060 --> 01:56:01,649 map from the main search bar or go through the development 2435 01:56:01,649 --> 01:56:05,960 code 2030 portion of the website and access it there. 2436 01:56:05,960 --> 01:56:08,829 It's interactive you click on the site. It tells you what 2437 01:56:08,829 --> 01:56:11,829 the new zoning is it tells you what your existing zoning is 2438 01:56:11,829 --> 01:56:14,899 so that you can start having those conversations, either 2439 01:56:14,899 --> 01:56:18,180 with your friends and family or with your constituents as 2440 01:56:18,180 --> 01:56:18,960 well. 2441 01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:22,659 I urge you and to visit it yourself but also to just talk 2442 01:56:22,659 --> 01:56:26,600 to as many people as possible. There are a lot of meetings 2443 01:56:26,600 --> 01:56:30,050 coming up in the next month to focus really on the zoning 2444 01:56:30,050 --> 01:56:33,180 map and how that relates to the new lineup of zoning 2445 01:56:33,180 --> 01:56:36,960 districts, and the uses allowed. 2446 01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:40,390 Show up to these if you can encourage friends and family to 2447 01:56:40,390 --> 01:56:43,909 go there's night meetings day meetings full day workshops 2448 01:56:43,909 --> 01:56:47,430 staff is going to be available for office hour discussions 2449 01:56:47,430 --> 01:56:48,960 to talk about this. 2450 01:56:48,960 --> 01:56:52,260 Just get the word out we're collecting any and all comments 2451 01:56:52,260 --> 01:56:52,960 on this. 2452 01:56:52,960 --> 01:57:02,960 We've got concerns on the zoning map. 2453 01:57:02,960 --> 01:57:06,810 So we didn't put his email up there but that's when we talk 2454 01:57:06,810 --> 01:57:10,579 to the public about that will say email comments to PZ at 2455 01:57:10,579 --> 01:57:12,960 city of Denton.com. 2456 01:57:12,960 --> 01:57:27,960 Yeah. 2457 01:57:27,960 --> 01:57:34,470 You'll get a lot of feedback on the zoning map. Once it's, 2458 01:57:34,470 --> 01:57:36,909 and that's why we drafted it this way. If you start if you 2459 01:57:36,909 --> 01:57:38,960 start out of the gate with a new zoning map. 2460 01:57:38,960 --> 01:57:42,600 You won't get to the end. So, here's the new districts 2461 01:57:42,600 --> 01:57:46,239 conceptually here's the uses a lather. Okay, we're fine 2462 01:57:46,239 --> 01:57:50,270 with that now here's the map that's when you apply the new 2463 01:57:50,270 --> 01:57:50,960 code. 2464 01:57:50,960 --> 01:57:57,960 Yeah, yeah. 2465 01:57:57,960 --> 01:58:10,960 The eight of us. 2466 01:58:10,960 --> 01:58:23,960 First phone call the first phone call I think for the city. 2467 01:58:23,960 --> 01:58:26,960 Otherwise, she didn't care. 2468 01:58:26,960 --> 01:58:33,960 I tried talking to her about it. 2469 01:58:33,960 --> 01:58:39,130 Well, thanks, y'all. We're putting the lion's share of work 2470 01:58:39,130 --> 01:58:41,390 on this committee. And so I appreciate everything you're 2471 01:58:41,390 --> 01:58:41,960 doing in the background when we're not here. 2472 01:58:41,960 --> 01:58:44,960 It's going to result in a better consolidated draft for us. 2473 01:58:44,960 --> 01:58:46,960 So, appreciate your time. 2474 01:58:46,960 --> 01:58:49,960 Thank you. 2475 01:58:49,960 --> 01:58:58,199 That is, you'll get an electronic link, but that is a 2476 01:58:58,199 --> 01:59:04,960 document as we walk through each of these sub chapters. 2477 01:59:04,960 --> 01:59:05,600 This is a reference tool between the two. So, those links 2478 01:59:05,600 --> 01:59:06,260 will take you electronically to both versions of the code. 2479 01:59:06,260 --> 01:59:07,600 So, if you're looking at a particular section and you want 2480 01:59:07,600 --> 01:59:12,960 to see where that's that cross reference. 2481 01:59:12,960 --> 01:59:20,960 Anything else that I need to do. 2482 01:59:20,960 --> 01:59:24,960 We don't have a couch in city hall. 2483 01:59:24,960 --> 01:59:27,949 I guess, technically we adjourned 15 minutes ago when we 2484 01:59:27,949 --> 01:59:28,960 lost the quorum. 2485 01:59:28,960 --> 01:59:31,960 Yeah, yeah. 2486 01:59:31,960 --> 01:59:33,960 Yeah, so we're good. 2487 01:59:33,960 --> 01:59:35,960 Was that 1045. 2488 01:59:35,960 --> 01:59:39,960 Thank you all very, very much. 2489 01:59:39,960 --> 01:59:41,560 >> Yes, sir. 2490 01:59:41,560 --> 01:59:42,060 >> Okay.