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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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Hey, Joe, before we start, I'd like

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to make a special commendation to Dr. Ramsey

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on a especially thoughtful article that she did.

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Hear, hear.

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We can go Sunday in the paper on Quaker Town.

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It's really very, very well done.

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Yeah.

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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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She's right here.

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And that is you're probably going to be in our top five

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most read, I guess.

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Oh, wow.

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Thank you.

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I'm going to lose my job.

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[LAUGHTER]

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Well, see, you've got to find those really sad, sad stories

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.

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That was a sad one.

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Thank you.

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You're welcome.

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It was.

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Thank you.

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You're welcome.

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Thank you.

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I've saved you, Joe.

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Hey, what's your name?

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Peggy, your job's saying.

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My God, my cookies.

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Is he saying what he's saying?

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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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OK.

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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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Good evening.

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Thank you all for coming.

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This is the March 1st Charter Review Committee meeting.

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And we're going to be recording tonight.

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So for all times, please don't cross talk,

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because they're not going to be able to catch you.

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If you get into a presentation in the Q&A,

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be patient.

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We'll have time for everyone to have questions.

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OK.

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Our first item on the agenda is public comment.

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Anybody who's in the public here that wishes to speak?

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No one?

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Not even Peggy.

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No.

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OK.

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So our next item is housekeeping.

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We need a motion to approve the minutes from February 15.

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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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Second.

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Second.

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All in favor?

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All right.

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OK.

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Number three.

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We have a distinguished guest.

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We're going to spend whatever time it takes

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for an outside resource to cover ethics.

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I'm going to let Dr. Alexander make the introduction,

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please.

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[SIDE CONVERSATION]

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Well, the first thing I want to say

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is I was a little skeptical two weeks ago

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that we'd be able to pull this off and get an expert in to

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be

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with us tonight.

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Joe was insistent that we could do it.

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And with a lot of help from staff,

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we've been able to do that as a committee.

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We met within about five days or so after the last meeting.

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We reviewed materials submitted by some applicants

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for the position.

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We reached a unanimous agreement that we had an excellent

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choice

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and the gentleman who will be speaking in a moment,

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he represents some really significant experience

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in the field of municipal law, especially as it relates to

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ethics.

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I particularly like the fact that his academic background

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is not only a law degree, but it also included,

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along with that law degree, a master's in public

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administration.

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And I really think that part of what he's helping us with

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is a combination of those two things.

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That's, by the way, a law degree and a master's degree

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in public administration from Texas Tech.

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So it's with great pleasure that I present to you

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Mr. Alan Bokhorson.

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Come on up to the microphone, Alan.

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Again, a special thanks to you and for the record,

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the other two fellows on your panel,

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David Zoltman and Billy Cheek.

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Thank you for the quick action in getting this done.

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Thanks for the staff that made that possible.

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It worked out well.

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Appreciate that. Thank you.

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I'm Alan Borquez and I've got some prepared materials

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that we'll go through and then we'll open it up

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to some question and answer period.

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The prepared materials are designed to provide you

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with the basics, an overview of state law ethics.

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To the extent you can legislate ethics

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and put those rules in a statute,

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I've gathered those that the state of Texas has compiled

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that are most commonly brought up in the municipal context.

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And we'll run through those to try to give you

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a working understanding of those laws,

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but also to try to dispel some of the misrepresentations

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or misunderstandings about what they may or may not do.

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And then we'll transition in the topic of ethics,

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ethics ordinances, your charter,

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and what this committee would like to recommend

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to the council in terms of what to do with the charter.

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So I'll go through the prepared materials.

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You have your handouts if you want to take notes.

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We also have the basic slides

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to provide us with some structure and some organization.

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But certainly if you've got a question regarding a slide,

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feel free to stop and we can discuss that a little bit.

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Does that sound all right?

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Okay, we'll proceed.

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We start with the charge,

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what the city council actually instructed

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this charter review committee to do.

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You were not charged specifically by the Denton city

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council

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to write an ethics ordinance

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or to write an ethics provision for the charter,

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but to evaluate what you think needs to be done

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with the ethics provisions in your charter.

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And I know that that charge has led to a lot of

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possibilities,

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and we'll actually discuss what some of the possibilities

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are

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when we get toward the end.

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But looking at what the council has asked us to do

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will begin from there.

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Looking at the charter, the first provisions, 14.05,

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is basically a nepotism provision.

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And it looks very similar to 572, the provision in state

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law,

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in terms of a prohibition on the hiring of relatives

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within certain degrees,

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certain degrees by blood or by marriage or adoption.

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One aspect that the charter provision in Denton provides

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is that it actually applies it to department heads,

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as well as to the city council.

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Because under state law, if a city's home rule charter

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delegates hiring and firing authority to the city manager,

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then the state law nepotism rule does not apply.

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Your charter goes a little bit beyond state law in that

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regard

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and applies it to department heads

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regarding employees being hired for that department.

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Much like state law, it also has an exemption

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for pre-existing personnel, those employees that were there

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before someone got elected to council

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or before that department head was named.

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The second provision in your charter that's at issue

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that you've been asked to evaluate is one entitled

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personal interest.

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It may otherwise be named a conflict of interest,

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which is the title that we give the state law.

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And it applies to a member of a board or a commission,

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which is clearly going to include the city council,

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it's going to include P&Z,

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and other such boards and commissions.

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It defines a substantial interest in the way it's defined

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in state statute.

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And that definition is tied to money.

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Do you get income?

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Do you own stock?

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Do you own real estate?

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And then it goes on to say you must comply with 171.

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What does that mean?

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It means you must abstain from voting under your charter

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and file an affidavit.

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So the affidavit is a public declaration of this interest.

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It's a document that's filed with the city secretary's

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office

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and thus is available to anybody who requests it

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under the Open Records Act.

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But an interesting twist, yours actually says voting.

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If you read state statute, which we'll get to it later on,

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it talks about participation.

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And participation is broader than voting.

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It includes discussions, deliberations.

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And so if we were to enforce that,

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because of the references to 171,

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I would take the broader interpretation of 171.

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But that's just a couple of nuance points about your

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charter.

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So those are things you've been asked to look at.

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Are they enough?

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Are they too much?

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Do we need them?

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Do we need something else?

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That's the point of today's meeting and the meetings

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you all have had to discuss it previously.

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Before we get into that, let's take a look at state law.

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The first one that, you know, again, you may decide

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whether you think this fits under the umbrella of ethics,

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but it often is mentioned in these types of training

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sessions

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and in regulations.

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One is resigned to run.

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The notion that's reflected in the Constitution of the

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state

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that says by accepting a second position,

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you automatically forfeit your first position.

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Now what does that mean?

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Well, it looks only at public offices of emolument.

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What does that mean?

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Well, to be a public office, you have to exercise

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a sovereign function of government.

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You're not just stamping, filing, processing.

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You're exercising some discretion in your position.

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And the second part is you get paid.

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So even if it's a public office, clearly a city council

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member

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would be a public office.

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But if they're not getting paid, this whole rule does not

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apply.

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And there's lots of exceptions, like so many provisions

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in our state constitution.

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There's the rule, and then there's page after page

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after page after page of exceptions to the exceptions

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to the exceptions of the rule.

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Next is incompatibility.

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And this one is not actually statutory.

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It's common law.

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So this is something where a judge will decide it on a case

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by case basis.

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It depends on the facts.

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There are many, many attorney general opinions on this.

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And what incompatibility is, it essentially is saying

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either

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you can't be your own boss.

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That would be incompatible.

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So if you were to have a city manager opening in city of

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Denton, which you don't now, but if you were, you couldn't

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appoint a city council member to be the city manager.

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They couldn't both be city manager and be on the city

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council

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because they'd be their own boss.

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You get that?

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So that's incompatibility.

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And yes, because I do represent so many smaller cities

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as city attorney, that comes up a lot.

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They want to get paid, but they don't want to give up their

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city council position.

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They want both.

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That's an example of a case when you can't do it.

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The more complicated versions of incompatibility is the

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notion

264
00:12:27,899 --> 00:12:31,899
that no one can serve two masters at the same time.

265
00:12:31,899 --> 00:12:36,899
So can you be superintendent of Denton Independent School

266
00:12:36,899 --> 00:12:39,899
District and be on the city council?

267
00:12:39,899 --> 00:12:40,899
No.

268
00:12:40,899 --> 00:12:43,899
It's not because city councils and school board trustees

269
00:12:43,899 --> 00:12:43,899
are

270
00:12:43,899 --> 00:12:45,899
always fighting.

271
00:12:45,899 --> 00:12:46,899
Sometimes they do.

272
00:12:46,899 --> 00:12:49,899
Sometimes they get along really well, and they're always

273
00:12:49,899 --> 00:12:52,899
contracting with each other, co-sponsoring programs.

274
00:12:52,899 --> 00:12:55,409
We'll own the swimming pool, but you operate the swimming

275
00:12:55,409 --> 00:12:55,899
pool.

276
00:12:55,899 --> 00:12:58,899
They're very, very intertwined oftentimes, so you could not

277
00:12:58,899 --> 00:12:58,899
be

278
00:12:58,899 --> 00:13:02,899
a superintendent at the school and be on the city council.

279
00:13:02,899 --> 00:13:05,899
But you can be a school teacher with the school district

280
00:13:05,899 --> 00:13:05,899
and

281
00:13:05,899 --> 00:13:07,899
be on the city council.

282
00:13:07,899 --> 00:13:10,899
You couldn't be chief of a volunteer fire department and

283
00:13:10,899 --> 00:13:12,899
sit on the city council.

284
00:13:12,899 --> 00:13:15,899
But you can be assistant chief or treasurer.

285
00:13:15,899 --> 00:13:17,899
How do I know?

286
00:13:17,899 --> 00:13:20,899
Because some attorney general has written that opinion, and

287
00:13:20,899 --> 00:13:23,899
they give lots of advisory opinions in that regard.

288
00:13:23,899 --> 00:13:28,899
So a conflict of duties, a conflict of loyalties, you know

289
00:13:28,899 --> 00:13:30,899
it when you see it, you know it when you smell it.

290
00:13:30,899 --> 00:13:34,899
That's what this entire body of incompatibility is about.

291
00:13:34,899 --> 00:13:37,899
It gets really, really intricate with some positions.

292
00:13:37,899 --> 00:13:40,899
I'm using common examples.

293
00:13:40,899 --> 00:13:43,899
But can you be emergency services director for a county

294
00:13:43,899 --> 00:13:47,419
when some of the money that you spend, your salary

295
00:13:47,419 --> 00:13:47,899
supported

296
00:13:47,899 --> 00:13:52,899
by city contracts and also by city taxpayers, and then also

297
00:13:52,899 --> 00:13:54,899
be named to the city council?

298
00:13:54,899 --> 00:13:59,899
So emergency services district manager for that county, but

299
00:13:59,899 --> 00:14:01,899
also on a city in that county.

300
00:14:01,899 --> 00:14:03,899
Well, there's no AG opinion on that one.

301
00:14:03,899 --> 00:14:05,899
And so it's a case-by-case analysis.

302
00:14:05,899 --> 00:14:09,529
And of course, the risk is if you go to trial and you're

303
00:14:09,529 --> 00:14:09,899
found

304
00:14:09,899 --> 00:14:12,899
to have an incompatibility, it's kind of like resigned to

305
00:14:12,899 --> 00:14:12,899
run

306
00:14:12,899 --> 00:14:15,899
by accepting that second position, you're booted out of

307
00:14:15,899 --> 00:14:16,899
the first one.

308
00:14:16,899 --> 00:14:20,899
And if the one you're booted out of is your paying position

309
00:14:20,899 --> 00:14:20,899
,

310
00:14:20,899 --> 00:14:22,899
then that can be a little bit hard.

311
00:14:22,899 --> 00:14:25,899
So I'm always having to counsel folks, get your own lawyer,

312
00:14:25,899 --> 00:14:27,899
and have your own lawyer on letterhead give you their

313
00:14:27,899 --> 00:14:30,899
opinion on whether or not you can serve in these two

314
00:14:30,899 --> 00:14:30,899
different

315
00:14:30,899 --> 00:14:34,899
positions at the same time for risk of violating the

316
00:14:34,899 --> 00:14:39,899
incompatibility rule.

317
00:14:39,899 --> 00:14:42,899
Public disclosures, this is one we see with increasing

318
00:14:42,899 --> 00:14:44,899
amount

319
00:14:44,899 --> 00:14:46,899
in Austin at the legislature.

320
00:14:46,899 --> 00:14:50,899
The last couple of sessions, the legislature has shown an

321
00:14:50,899 --> 00:14:54,899
increasing interest in causing cities, city officials,

322
00:14:54,899 --> 00:14:54,899
other

323
00:14:54,899 --> 00:14:58,899
local governments to disclose more information, more

324
00:14:58,899 --> 00:14:59,899
paperwork

325
00:14:59,899 --> 00:15:01,899
regarding your own dealings.

326
00:15:01,899 --> 00:15:04,899
If a vendor comes in and wants a contract, they have to

327
00:15:04,899 --> 00:15:07,899
disclose along with their proposal whether or not that

328
00:15:07,899 --> 00:15:11,899
they have any business relationships with the city

329
00:15:11,899 --> 00:15:15,899
council or family relationships with the city council.

330
00:15:15,899 --> 00:15:18,899
If you have contracts over certain sizes, now the city and

331
00:15:18,899 --> 00:15:21,899
the vendors have to submit information.

332
00:15:21,899 --> 00:15:23,899
More and more of those disclosure forms are being

333
00:15:23,899 --> 00:15:28,899
required, and this is just a few of them.

334
00:15:28,899 --> 00:15:31,899
There's bills filed this current session pending, and

335
00:15:31,899 --> 00:15:33,899
whether they go anywhere or not, it's too early to say.

336
00:15:33,899 --> 00:15:37,899
They require even more disclosures of more -- I guess the

337
00:15:37,899 --> 00:15:41,899
notion is if we disclose all this information, it gets put

338
00:15:41,899 --> 00:15:41,899
up

339
00:15:41,899 --> 00:15:44,899
on the websites either at a state agency like the Texas

340
00:15:44,899 --> 00:15:47,899
Ethics Commission or the city secretary posted here at city

341
00:15:47,899 --> 00:15:51,899
hall on our website, voters will have access to it, then

342
00:15:51,899 --> 00:15:55,899
they can judge us more thoroughly based on our

343
00:15:55,899 --> 00:15:59,899
relationships, our money, and those sorts of things.

344
00:15:59,899 --> 00:16:01,899
There's really no penalty if you fail to turn in these

345
00:16:01,899 --> 00:16:02,899
things.

346
00:16:02,899 --> 00:16:04,899
They have to give you a warning and give you a chance to go

347
00:16:04,899 --> 00:16:08,899
and fill it in after the fact and get them submitted.

348
00:16:08,899 --> 00:16:13,320
So this again, more ethics being viewed as more

349
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,899
transparency.

350
00:16:16,899 --> 00:16:19,899
Then you kind of transition to the penal code, which is not

351
00:16:19,899 --> 00:16:23,899
the only set of criminal statutes we have in Texas.

352
00:16:23,899 --> 00:16:25,899
The law is spread all over the place, but for sure the

353
00:16:25,899 --> 00:16:25,899
penal

354
00:16:25,899 --> 00:16:29,899
code is an obvious place to go look, and whether you view

355
00:16:29,899 --> 00:16:29,899
this

356
00:16:29,899 --> 00:16:33,899
as ethics or not, it gets swept under that ethics umbrella.

357
00:16:33,899 --> 00:16:36,899
The first one is good old fashioned bribery.

358
00:16:36,899 --> 00:16:40,899
I like a quote from a former unnamed San Antonio city

359
00:16:40,899 --> 00:16:45,899
official where he said in the San Antonio newspaper, if we

360
00:16:45,899 --> 00:16:45,899
're

361
00:16:45,899 --> 00:16:52,899
getting elected just to look good, I don't want to be here.

362
00:16:52,899 --> 00:16:53,899
And you don't have to worry about him because he's not

363
00:16:53,899 --> 00:16:54,899
there

364
00:16:54,899 --> 00:16:57,899
because he went to jail for bribery.

365
00:16:57,899 --> 00:17:00,899
A lot of city council members in San Antonio went to jail

366
00:17:00,899 --> 00:17:00,899
for

367
00:17:00,899 --> 00:17:04,900
bribery, and they were bribed by, who else?

368
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:07,900
A law firm that wanted a city contract.

369
00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:10,900
So it was a pretty nasty bit of business there for a while.

370
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:12,900
It's not just cities and it's not just law firms.

371
00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:15,900
You could be from my hometown of El Paso where you got

372
00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:15,900
school

373
00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:20,029
board members taking bribes from insurance companies and on

374
00:17:20,029 --> 00:17:20,900
and on and on.

375
00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:27,200
Bribery is criminal, accepting, soliciting any offer of

376
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:27,900
money or thing of value

377
00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:32,599
that's enticing you to do something or enticing you not to

378
00:17:32,599 --> 00:17:33,900
do something.

379
00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:38,150
To thwart the execution of an ordinance or a city policy or

380
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:38,900
to push a policy

381
00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:41,900
or contract or an ordinance someone's way.

382
00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:45,900
Good old fashioned bribery alive and well in Texas.

383
00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:51,900
Coercion, a threat to harm, expose, ridicule someone.

384
00:17:51,900 --> 00:17:55,900
Coercion of a public official trying to convince them to do

385
00:17:55,900 --> 00:17:56,900
something.

386
00:17:56,900 --> 00:18:03,150
Coercion of a voter, the three different aspects of coerc

387
00:18:03,150 --> 00:18:04,900
ion in Texas.

388
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:08,230
Honorariums, we're not allowed to accept honorariums if the

389
00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:08,900
honorarium

390
00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:12,900
is given to you because of your public position.

391
00:18:12,900 --> 00:18:16,410
Which is why I love it when you read about members of the

392
00:18:16,410 --> 00:18:16,900
legislature

393
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:20,900
getting big nice honorariums for speaking at conferences.

394
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:23,900
But don't worry, it's an insurance conference and I'm an

395
00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:24,900
insurance agent.

396
00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:27,900
I was paid to come here to speak as an insurance agent,

397
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:30,900
not because I'm a state senator or a state representative,

398
00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:31,900
I promise.

399
00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:34,849
And so you actually follow those lines, you can see it

400
00:18:34,849 --> 00:18:35,900
sometimes.

401
00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:39,109
Transportation and lodging is okay if you're speaking at

402
00:18:39,109 --> 00:18:39,900
the event.

403
00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:43,460
There's an exception for gifts and awards and mementos if

404
00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:44,900
they are of de minimis value.

405
00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:48,579
It's such a small thing, it's a token, it's not really

406
00:18:48,579 --> 00:18:49,900
worth counting.

407
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:52,410
If you're unsure whether it really is de minimis, figure

408
00:18:52,410 --> 00:18:53,900
out what it costs.

409
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:56,900
If it's more than 50 bucks, you probably shouldn't take it.

410
00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:59,900
So is it a plaque? Of course that's fine.

411
00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:03,900
Is it a vase of flowers, a gift basket, fruit? You bet.

412
00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:06,900
If it's over 50 bucks, you may have an issue.

413
00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:12,900
And I'll give credit to one of my mentors, Art Pertile,

414
00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:14,900
former city attorney of Waco.

415
00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:17,900
Now he's with a law firm in Houston.

416
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:19,900
He just had his own rule.

417
00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:22,349
Even when my firm would send him candy, they weren't even a

418
00:19:22,349 --> 00:19:22,900
client.

419
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:26,329
I like art, we send out candy at Christmas, here's a box of

420
00:19:26,329 --> 00:19:26,900
candy.

421
00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:29,019
Get the note back, dear Alan, thank you for the candy, it

422
00:19:29,019 --> 00:19:29,900
looked great.

423
00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:32,960
We didn't open it, my policy is we give it to the boys and

424
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:33,900
girls club.

425
00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:36,990
Okay, and that wasn't even required by a city of Waco

426
00:19:36,990 --> 00:19:37,900
ordinance.

427
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:39,900
That was his own rule.

428
00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:41,900
I don't care, I'm a businessman myself.

429
00:19:41,900 --> 00:19:45,029
I gave someone I like a gift, he gave it to whomever he

430
00:19:45,029 --> 00:19:45,900
wanted to.

431
00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:50,900
But if it's less than $50, you don't have to disclose it.

432
00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:53,759
One thing that I think is interesting here, I'll make a

433
00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:54,900
little side point.

434
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:58,500
The transportation and lodging, if you want to call

435
00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:01,900
something a loophole, you could drive a limousine through.

436
00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:04,900
This is a loophole you can drive a limousine through.

437
00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:09,900
As public officials, we can accept gifts of transportation,

438
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:15,220
lodging, dinner, events, if the person who's paying for it

439
00:20:15,220 --> 00:20:16,900
is along for the ride.

440
00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:22,250
So imagine a city in South Texas getting an invitation to

441
00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:26,990
hop into a limo, mayor, council, senior staff, drive up to

442
00:20:26,990 --> 00:20:27,900
Arlington.

443
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:33,130
So they can go see the cowboys play in a luxury suite owned

444
00:20:33,130 --> 00:20:36,599
by an investor and a vendor that does business at City Hall

445
00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:36,900
.

446
00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:40,470
Not only is it legal for that to happen because the person

447
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:44,559
paying for it was along for the ride, there's no disclosure

448
00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:45,900
requirements.

449
00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:47,900
There's no form you fill out.

450
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:51,690
There's no keeping a record of who was in the limo and what

451
00:20:51,690 --> 00:20:53,900
the relationship was at all.

452
00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:55,900
Perfectly legal.

453
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:56,900
Is it ethical?

454
00:20:56,900 --> 00:20:59,900
Well, it didn't violate any written standard at City Hall.

455
00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:01,900
They have an ethics ordinance.

456
00:21:01,900 --> 00:21:03,900
That sort of thing doesn't cover it.

457
00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:06,059
Well, next time this contract comes around for review, is

458
00:21:06,059 --> 00:21:09,450
the fact that they got a trip to Arlington going to

459
00:21:09,450 --> 00:21:10,900
influence them?

460
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:12,900
I don't think so.

461
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:14,900
I don't think it'll influence them.

462
00:21:14,900 --> 00:21:17,430
They're still going to pick the right contract that has the

463
00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:19,900
right customer service and the right dollar value.

464
00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:22,950
Are voters going to have a cow where they'll learn about

465
00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:24,900
this little trip to Arlington?

466
00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:26,900
Absolutely.

467
00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:28,900
Would the media love to have that story?

468
00:21:28,900 --> 00:21:29,900
You bet.

469
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:30,900
You bet.

470
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:33,900
But I have to say it's legal because I'm a lawyer.

471
00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:37,069
I have to say ethical, well, it didn't violate their ethics

472
00:21:37,069 --> 00:21:37,900
ordinance.

473
00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:39,900
Was it the right thing to do?

474
00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:40,900
I don't know.

475
00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:42,990
The question was put to the mayor, the couple of council

476
00:21:42,990 --> 00:21:44,900
members who went, the city manager who went.

477
00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:47,099
Are you ready to own this when it's on the front page of

478
00:21:47,099 --> 00:21:48,900
the newspaper or on the blogosphere?

479
00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:50,900
You bet I'll own it.

480
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:53,900
Okay, have a nice trip is the way the story goes.

481
00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:55,900
And why is this exception this way?

482
00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:58,900
I mean, it's not even really an exception.

483
00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:01,900
And of course, I've been doing this for many, many years.

484
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:03,900
This is all I've ever done for a living.

485
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:05,900
So I am cynical and skeptical.

486
00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:08,400
And I think the rule is the way it is because the

487
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,559
legislature avails themselves of these sorts of perks of

488
00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:12,900
office all the time.

489
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:15,900
And so I think it's very unlikely they're going to prohibit

490
00:22:15,900 --> 00:22:18,480
this sort of thing when a lot of them view this as one of

491
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:19,900
the reasons they got it in.

492
00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:20,900
They work hard.

493
00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:21,900
It's a part-time job.

494
00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:25,230
Hey, if we can't enjoy the occasional perk, what's the

495
00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:25,900
point?

496
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:29,900
Just one jaded lawyer's opinion.

497
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:33,549
Misuse of information is actually a crime under the penal

498
00:22:33,549 --> 00:22:36,410
code to use information for your benefit, the benefit of

499
00:22:36,410 --> 00:22:38,900
your friends or benefit of your family,

500
00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:42,089
if you came across that information only because of your

501
00:22:42,089 --> 00:22:43,900
relationship to City Hall.

502
00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:47,640
You're an employee, you're an elected official, you're an

503
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,900
appointed volunteer on a board or commission.

504
00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:52,759
Now, if it's public information and everybody knows the rez

505
00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:55,349
oning is going to happen, and so you're out there doing land

506
00:22:55,349 --> 00:22:58,900
speculation just like everybody else could, then it's fine.

507
00:22:58,900 --> 00:22:59,900
And believe me, I think about it.

508
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:03,170
I think about some of the communities that I represent that

509
00:23:03,170 --> 00:23:06,579
were nothing when I started being city attorney 15 years

510
00:23:06,579 --> 00:23:06,900
ago.

511
00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:10,269
And because of demographics and highways and I-35 realign

512
00:23:10,269 --> 00:23:12,900
ments and everything else, wow, I could have made a fortune

513
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:14,900
because I knew where the roads were going.

514
00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:16,900
I knew where the rezoning was going.

515
00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:19,390
I knew where the infrastructure was going for water and

516
00:23:19,390 --> 00:23:19,900
sewer.

517
00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:22,410
Oh boy, oh boy, my parents could have done better with

518
00:23:22,410 --> 00:23:23,900
their retirement account.

519
00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:25,900
But that would be unethical, right?

520
00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:27,900
Oh, and it's illegal also.

521
00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:32,690
So I didn't take advantage of any of that, and neither or

522
00:23:32,690 --> 00:23:33,900
any of you.

523
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:36,900
Abuse of office comes up more often than I would like.

524
00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:46,339
3902, the penal code, you intend to obtain a benefit that's

525
00:23:46,339 --> 00:23:50,900
not available to the general public or to harm or to fraud

526
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:53,900
somebody otherwise than the general public.

527
00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:56,900
That comes down to abuse of office.

528
00:23:56,900 --> 00:24:00,420
This is one of the more common ones that I've seen that

529
00:24:00,420 --> 00:24:02,900
gets the Texas Rangers involved.

530
00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:05,539
And when a Texas Ranger comes knocking on your door to

531
00:24:05,539 --> 00:24:08,690
interview you because someone you work with, or in my case

532
00:24:08,690 --> 00:24:12,430
somebody I advise, is being investigated for abuse of

533
00:24:12,430 --> 00:24:14,900
office, it's a very, very serious offense.

534
00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:17,900
They're using government property, government money,

535
00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:23,130
government services, personnel in ways the general public

536
00:24:23,130 --> 00:24:26,089
would not allow and is not pursuant to a city policy

537
00:24:26,089 --> 00:24:27,900
practice or procedure.

538
00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:31,960
Or they're using the weight of their office to try to harm

539
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:32,900
someone.

540
00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:36,859
And it's not just the usual code enforcement or action that

541
00:24:36,859 --> 00:24:39,900
's pursuant to a city code of ordinances.

542
00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:43,900
This is the one that'll get you investigated.

543
00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:47,710
So that was a very quick run through of most of the laws

544
00:24:47,710 --> 00:24:48,900
that come up.

545
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:52,880
If you've read the AG's handbook has been around for

546
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,900
probably, I don't know, 18, 19 years.

547
00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:58,660
Three or four different AG's have touched it that gives

548
00:24:58,660 --> 00:25:01,500
kind of the pitfalls for the unwary or some of the more

549
00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:02,900
common ethics rules.

550
00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:04,900
That's the highlights that I just covered.

551
00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:08,200
The next ones we're transitioning into the ones that affect

552
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,900
you, the city of Denton, and your charter.

553
00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:14,900
So if you're looking at 171, which your charter references,

554
00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:19,180
171 of the Texas Local Government Code, you're talking

555
00:25:19,180 --> 00:25:23,900
about finances and you're talking about real estate.

556
00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:26,910
So often is the case where after a council meeting or

557
00:25:26,910 --> 00:25:30,900
during a city council meeting, up comes the reporter.

558
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:33,430
You know, iPhone shoved in my face, wanting to question me

559
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:34,900
about conflicts of interest.

560
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:38,329
Well, first of all, I'm a lawyer, so I'm not going to talk

561
00:25:38,329 --> 00:25:41,630
about what my clients may or may not be doing to a reporter

562
00:25:41,630 --> 00:25:42,900
in open session.

563
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:46,740
But, by the way, what they're usually asking about is it

564
00:25:46,740 --> 00:25:48,900
doesn't smell right to them.

565
00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:52,630
The relationship the city councilman has doesn't feel right

566
00:25:52,630 --> 00:25:52,900
.

567
00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:56,480
The relationship this department has to this contract just

568
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:57,900
doesn't look right.

569
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:00,150
Isn't that a conflict of interest? Isn't that a conflict of

570
00:26:00,150 --> 00:26:00,900
interest?

571
00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:03,490
Just last week I was helping a city out west where the city

572
00:26:03,490 --> 00:26:05,900
attorney is accused of a conflict of interest.

573
00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:08,559
Well, your boss is the city council. You should not be

574
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:11,900
advising the council on this. It's a conflict.

575
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:13,900
You got to look and see what the rule is.

576
00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:17,640
In Texas, we no longer have common law conflict of interest

577
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:17,900
.

578
00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:19,900
We used to.

579
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:23,589
We used to have it where a judge and jury would decide on a

580
00:26:23,589 --> 00:26:28,230
case by case basis, is this a conflict of interest or is it

581
00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:28,900
not?

582
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:34,900
When the legislature adopted 171, they expressly repealed

583
00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:38,900
and preempted all of that previous body of law.

584
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:42,140
That's no longer precedent in Texas for defining a conflict

585
00:26:42,140 --> 00:26:43,900
of interest under state law.

586
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:48,900
It's this. And as you'll see, it's tied to money.

587
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:52,839
How much of your income? How much stock? What's the fair

588
00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:55,900
market value? Is it real estate?

589
00:26:55,900 --> 00:27:00,660
And if you have these thresholds, they will trigger 171 of

590
00:27:00,660 --> 00:27:02,900
the local government code.

591
00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:06,900
Does this law prevent conflicts of interest?

592
00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:08,900
Usually not.

593
00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:12,410
What it does is it takes the deal, it takes the transaction

594
00:27:12,410 --> 00:27:15,779
out of the shadows of some back hallway at city hall or the

595
00:27:15,779 --> 00:27:18,900
county courthouse and brings it out into the open.

596
00:27:18,900 --> 00:27:21,400
By first of all requiring the member of the city council

597
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,440
that has a conflict of interest or the P&Z member that has

598
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,900
a conflict of interest to declare that interest in writing

599
00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:33,359
in an affidavit that's filed with the city secretary and

600
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,900
has made a public record.

601
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:41,789
And then the second part is requires that official to abst

602
00:27:41,789 --> 00:27:46,579
ain from participation, which has been defined elsewhere as

603
00:27:46,579 --> 00:27:48,900
being voting and discussing.

604
00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:52,630
So deliberating at the dais and participating in the voting

605
00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:52,900
.

606
00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:56,250
The question I get most often on 171 is not whether someone

607
00:27:56,250 --> 00:27:57,900
has a conflict of interest.

608
00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:00,900
I think the rules are pretty straightforward.

609
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:05,589
The question that I get as a practitioner is, well, okay, I

610
00:28:05,589 --> 00:28:09,660
'll step down from the dais, but I can come speak at the

611
00:28:09,660 --> 00:28:11,900
podium as a citizen, right?

612
00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:14,900
I can speak as a property owner, right?

613
00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:17,609
Well, you know, I have to do my little lawyer dance because

614
00:28:17,609 --> 00:28:19,900
I said, well, you know, I don't advise you.

615
00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:21,900
I advise the city as an entity.

616
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:25,599
And so if you're going to risk violating this rule that you

617
00:28:25,599 --> 00:28:29,289
need to own that yourself, so you may want to have your own

618
00:28:29,289 --> 00:28:31,900
personal lawyer advise you on that.

619
00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:34,289
But since we're here and I got nothing better to do, I'll

620
00:28:34,289 --> 00:28:35,900
give you some general opinions.

621
00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:41,589
I think by accepting a position as a P&Z member or maybe it

622
00:28:41,589 --> 00:28:44,769
's parks and rec or maybe it's, you know, another border

623
00:28:44,769 --> 00:28:47,900
commission, utilities commission.

624
00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:51,319
Or by accepting a seat on the city council, you are giving

625
00:28:51,319 --> 00:28:54,900
up some of your rights that a normal citizen would have.

626
00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:58,339
For sure, the Open Meetings Act says so and the Open

627
00:28:58,339 --> 00:28:59,900
Records Act says so.

628
00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:02,579
By trading in your work at City Hall, you're agreeing you

629
00:29:02,579 --> 00:29:04,900
have to show all your emails most of the time.

630
00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:07,250
You're agreeing you can only talk about public business

631
00:29:07,250 --> 00:29:08,900
with a quorum in certain settings.

632
00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:11,160
So you don't have the exact same rights that a citizen

633
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,900
walking down the street would have.

634
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:14,900
And this is one of them.

635
00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:17,549
I would say no, I think it's probably a good idea not to go

636
00:29:17,549 --> 00:29:20,230
speak from the podium as a citizen, a voter, a property

637
00:29:20,230 --> 00:29:20,900
owner.

638
00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:24,240
If someone needs to advocate your position, ask your spouse

639
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:24,900
to do so.

640
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:27,519
Ask your best friend to do so. Ask the lawyer friend you

641
00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:28,900
have to come do so.

642
00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:30,900
You go out in the lobby and get a cup of coffee.

643
00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:33,900
That's the smartest thing that you can do.

644
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:36,690
I'll never forget when I was, I once upon a time, I was a

645
00:29:36,690 --> 00:29:38,900
lawyer for the Texas Municipal League.

646
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:39,900
I was a staff lawyer there.

647
00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:42,869
And it's during my time at TML that there was another city

648
00:29:42,869 --> 00:29:45,529
in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex where the chair of

649
00:29:45,529 --> 00:29:48,900
planning and zoning did just an amazing job.

650
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:52,599
He said, well, everyone, my son owns this property coming

651
00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:53,900
up on the agenda next.

652
00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:56,529
Therefore, I've got a conflict of interest because the

653
00:29:56,529 --> 00:29:59,230
conflicts of my relatives are also my conflicts under the

654
00:29:59,230 --> 00:29:59,900
statute.

655
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:03,049
So I'm going to abstain from voting on this, but it's a

656
00:30:03,049 --> 00:30:03,900
great project.

657
00:30:03,900 --> 00:30:05,900
And it's really great for the community.

658
00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:06,900
And he's worked really hard on it.

659
00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:08,900
And he's barely going to break even on this project.

660
00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:10,900
So I really hope you'll support it.

661
00:30:10,900 --> 00:30:13,069
And then he goes on the front row and stares at his

662
00:30:13,069 --> 00:30:15,900
colleagues while they deliberate and vote on the matter.

663
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:17,900
Well, I don't represent that city.

664
00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:18,900
How do I know about it?

665
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:22,130
Because the whole scenario was played out in the Dallas

666
00:30:22,130 --> 00:30:23,900
Morning News with photos.

667
00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:25,670
I'm sitting there watching that going, gosh, it doesn't

668
00:30:25,670 --> 00:30:26,900
really matter what state law says.

669
00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:29,049
That doesn't really matter what that city's ethics

670
00:30:29,049 --> 00:30:29,900
ordinance says.

671
00:30:29,900 --> 00:30:32,900
I never want that to happen to me.

672
00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:37,480
I never want that my mug on that newspaper making this kind

673
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,690
of poor judgment when it's so easy to just put down the ga

674
00:30:41,690 --> 00:30:44,519
vel and walk outside and get some fresh air and let the

675
00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:45,900
process run its course.

676
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:48,900
But here you have our conflict of interest statute,

677
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:51,589
probably the biggest, most commonly looked at ethics

678
00:30:51,589 --> 00:30:52,900
statute in the state.

679
00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:56,900
And it's only tied to money.

680
00:30:56,900 --> 00:30:59,900
Is that how you define conflict of interest?

681
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:02,400
I'll give you another example from my TML day isn't still

682
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,900
in the best examples I've ever heard of real stuff.

683
00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:05,900
I'm not clever.

684
00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:07,900
I can't make this up.

685
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:11,900
What do you do when the entire mayor and city council

686
00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:15,900
belong to the same church?

687
00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:20,319
And what do you do when the city council enters into a

688
00:31:20,319 --> 00:31:22,900
lease of land with the church?

689
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:29,130
Church, we're going to give you a lease for 100 years at a

690
00:31:29,130 --> 00:31:30,900
dollar a year.

691
00:31:30,900 --> 00:31:33,900
God be with you.

692
00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:35,900
Conflict of interest.

693
00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:40,339
Does it matter that some of the city council members are de

694
00:31:40,339 --> 00:31:41,900
acons at the church?

695
00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:45,619
Well, unless the deacons have stock, unless they're getting

696
00:31:45,619 --> 00:31:48,019
a cut from the wicker basket that's passed, I don't see how

697
00:31:48,019 --> 00:31:51,900
what they're doing is a conflict of interest.

698
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:55,900
Not under state law.

699
00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:58,490
I'll mention to you later one of my favorite, favorite and

700
00:31:58,490 --> 00:32:01,130
earliest experiences helping a community draft an ethics

701
00:32:01,130 --> 00:32:01,900
ordinance.

702
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:04,900
It was the beautiful village of Wimberly, Texas.

703
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:06,900
Anyone know where Wimberly, Texas is?

704
00:32:06,900 --> 00:32:08,900
It's an amazing place.

705
00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:09,900
Again, I'm from out west.

706
00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:11,900
I've been working my way west all my life.

707
00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:15,329
New Mexico and El Paso and then Lubbock and then okay, here

708
00:32:15,329 --> 00:32:15,900
we are.

709
00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:18,900
I didn't know places like Wimberly, Texas existed.

710
00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:22,180
Just outside of San Marcos, Texas, about an hour from

711
00:32:22,180 --> 00:32:22,900
Austin.

712
00:32:22,900 --> 00:32:25,900
The Cypress Creek and Blanco River collide.

713
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:29,900
Cypress trees, hills, a beautiful enchanting place.

714
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:32,900
It's been around for 2,000 years as a settlement.

715
00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:36,900
It didn't become a city until the year 2000.

716
00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:39,759
Why do they finally decide we got to be a municipality and

717
00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:40,900
govern ourselves?

718
00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:42,900
The same reason most communities do.

719
00:32:42,900 --> 00:32:44,900
They don't want to be annexed by San Marcos.

720
00:32:44,900 --> 00:32:47,369
They just see those city limits sign moving down the road,

721
00:32:47,369 --> 00:32:48,900
so we're going to become a city.

722
00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:52,099
And what was amazing to me about this, with that little

723
00:32:52,099 --> 00:32:53,900
community, they got incorporated.

724
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:57,680
They elected their first city council, female mayor, five

725
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,900
male city councilmen.

726
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:00,900
Why is that relevant?

727
00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:03,900
Because all five are members of the Lions Club.

728
00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:08,170
You couldn't do anything as a male in Wimberly, Texas if

729
00:33:08,170 --> 00:33:09,900
you were not a lion.

730
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:11,900
That was their group.

731
00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:14,690
Saturday Trade Days, the number one economic engine they

732
00:33:14,690 --> 00:33:14,900
had,

733
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:17,069
which pulled in people that helped the antique shops and

734
00:33:17,069 --> 00:33:18,900
the restaurants and other places in town.

735
00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:22,900
Very big tourist area, lots of B&Bs, lodges and all that.

736
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:23,900
It was a big deal.

737
00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:25,650
And what happens when the mayor says, "Well, I've been

738
00:33:25,650 --> 00:33:27,900
invited to go speak at the Lions Club on Saturday."

739
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:28,900
Fantastic.

740
00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:30,900
Is the council going to be there? Yep.

741
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:31,900
What are you talking about?

742
00:33:31,900 --> 00:33:34,900
Oh, our new zoning ordinance, our new sign ordinance.

743
00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:37,900
So let me see, I've got my entire city council or lions,

744
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:40,900
the mayor, and she's talking about public business.

745
00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:43,900
Any Open Meetings Act issues popping up in your head?

746
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:45,900
Well, of course, it's open to the public, right?

747
00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:49,910
Well, no. Saturday breakfast at Lions Club is not open to

748
00:33:49,910 --> 00:33:50,900
the public.

749
00:33:50,900 --> 00:33:54,900
How do you reconcile that?

750
00:33:54,900 --> 00:33:55,900
I don't know.

751
00:33:55,900 --> 00:33:59,240
Did I mention I'm no longer city attorney of Wimberly? Did

752
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,900
that come out?

753
00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:04,329
Mere membership in an organization is not enough to create

754
00:34:04,329 --> 00:34:05,900
a conflict of interest.

755
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:10,010
And yes, of course, there are cities that do contracts with

756
00:34:10,010 --> 00:34:13,280
Lions Clubs or other groups for use of parking lots or for

757
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,900
services or for those sorts of things.

758
00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:17,900
Chambers of commerce, on and on and on.

759
00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:20,760
It's very common for cities to have contractual

760
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:21,900
relationships.

761
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:24,760
Mere membership in an organization does not trigger a

762
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,900
conflict of interest under state law.

763
00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:30,900
It's only dollars that are going to do that.

764
00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:35,190
I'll mention that the rest of 171 says if anyone on the

765
00:34:35,190 --> 00:34:39,230
board has a conflict and they file their affidavit, they

766
00:34:39,230 --> 00:34:42,429
can't abstain or they can't participate in the matter any

767
00:34:42,429 --> 00:34:47,900
further unless a majority of that board has a conflict.

768
00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:52,309
So if it's a zoning decision or something else and it

769
00:34:52,309 --> 00:34:54,659
affects most of the city council members, all the city

770
00:34:54,659 --> 00:34:56,900
council members, then they declare their conflict.

771
00:34:56,900 --> 00:34:58,900
Okay, here's our affidavit.

772
00:34:58,900 --> 00:35:01,809
Now we get to go on and have our discussion and we get to

773
00:35:01,809 --> 00:35:04,949
vote, even though we all have a conflict or most of us have

774
00:35:04,949 --> 00:35:05,900
a conflict.

775
00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:08,059
I think that rule is there to keep from paralyzing the

776
00:35:08,059 --> 00:35:08,900
governing body.

777
00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:10,900
At some point, they got to take action.

778
00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:13,760
And if they take action when they had other alternatives

779
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,900
that were not conflicts, well now the politics kicks in.

780
00:35:16,900 --> 00:35:19,280
There may not be accountability under state law, but there

781
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,250
's accountability at the ballot box, which is something we

782
00:35:22,250 --> 00:35:25,900
should never forget when we're thinking about ethics.

783
00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:28,760
The other thing is this law doesn't prevent the transaction

784
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:29,900
from going through.

785
00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:31,900
An example I've seen, I've seen all these.

786
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:34,900
The mayor owns the only electrician shop in town.

787
00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:37,900
The mayor owns the only auto shop in town.

788
00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:39,900
That's really fun for small town Texas.

789
00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:43,320
Is the police department, public works department, are they

790
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,079
going to haul their broken vehicles for maintenance or

791
00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:47,900
repairs 30 miles down the road?

792
00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:50,210
Or are they going to contract with the mayor's garage to

793
00:35:50,210 --> 00:35:50,900
fix things?

794
00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:53,699
Well, as long as the mayor declares that interest or an aff

795
00:35:53,699 --> 00:35:56,880
idavit and abstains from participation, they can vote to

796
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,900
give the mayor whatever contract he wants for that service.

797
00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:03,550
And sometimes, and I've seen it with my own two eyes, it

798
00:36:03,550 --> 00:36:05,980
really is in the public's interest to do that sort of

799
00:36:05,980 --> 00:36:06,900
arrangement.

800
00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:09,440
They just kind of go over and above in the name of

801
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,719
transparency to make sure the citizens and voters know why

802
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,900
they're doing this, why it's a good idea.

803
00:36:15,900 --> 00:36:18,900
This is not really shady self-dealing.

804
00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:21,300
But there are quite a few cities that would have ethics

805
00:36:21,300 --> 00:36:24,269
ordinances that would step in where state law does not and

806
00:36:24,269 --> 00:36:26,900
prevent that transaction from going through.

807
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:28,900
And we'll discuss a few more of those in a minute.

808
00:36:28,900 --> 00:36:29,900
Yes sir, you had a question?

809
00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:33,900
>> Is the income, is that self-reported?

810
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,900
>> Your tax returned.

811
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:40,900
It's a percentage of your reportable income.

812
00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:45,900
And there's no auditing requirements that I know of.

813
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:49,530
You know, one of my, do with this as you will, my favorite

814
00:36:49,530 --> 00:36:52,289
example under this is I had a city councilman in a town

815
00:36:52,289 --> 00:36:56,639
near Austin where there were lots of emails coming to city

816
00:36:56,639 --> 00:36:57,900
hall before council meeting.

817
00:36:57,900 --> 00:37:00,900
Because the vote was going to be on a variance request.

818
00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:04,429
This particular town is so small, the city council can

819
00:37:04,429 --> 00:37:06,900
double as the board of adjustment.

820
00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:09,010
Y'all aren't allowed to do that, but smaller towns were

821
00:37:09,010 --> 00:37:09,900
allowed to do that.

822
00:37:09,900 --> 00:37:13,400
And so a variance request was coming, emails were flooding

823
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,900
in, demanding the city councilman abstain as a conflict of

824
00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:18,900
interest because he was a realtor.

825
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:22,219
And the real estate company he worked for was managing this

826
00:37:22,219 --> 00:37:24,900
project and pushing the variance through.

827
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:28,510
And so, you know, questions came up about once anyone, his

828
00:37:28,510 --> 00:37:29,900
income, what not.

829
00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:31,869
When it came to it, he asked for a point of personal

830
00:37:31,869 --> 00:37:32,900
privilege, Mayor.

831
00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:34,869
He said, I'm going to read a statement to the public, read

832
00:37:34,869 --> 00:37:36,900
the statement saying, yeah, I work for this company.

833
00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:40,840
I'm an independent contractor as our most realtors, real

834
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,900
estate agents and brokers.

835
00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:44,900
I don't represent this project.

836
00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:47,150
I will get none of the commission that comes through on

837
00:37:47,150 --> 00:37:47,900
this project.

838
00:37:47,900 --> 00:37:48,900
I don't get bonuses.

839
00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:51,019
Our company doesn't give bonuses based on how well the

840
00:37:51,019 --> 00:37:51,900
company is doing.

841
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:55,210
All the folks who voted for me knew I was a real estate

842
00:37:55,210 --> 00:37:55,900
agent.

843
00:37:55,900 --> 00:37:58,099
They wanted to have somebody who understood real estate on

844
00:37:58,099 --> 00:37:58,900
the city council.

845
00:37:58,900 --> 00:37:59,900
That's me.

846
00:37:59,900 --> 00:38:01,900
So I'm not abstaining.

847
00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:03,900
And I follow an affidavit just to do that.

848
00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:05,900
But I am not abstaining from this.

849
00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:07,900
I'm voting on this variance.

850
00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:11,900
And I sat back and quietly on the inside applauded the guy

851
00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:13,900
because he read the rules.

852
00:38:13,900 --> 00:38:14,900
He thought it through.

853
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:17,199
And then he took a position and it wasn't a cowardly

854
00:38:17,199 --> 00:38:17,900
position.

855
00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:19,900
It was a very bold position.

856
00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:22,949
And he's going to be accountable for that when the election

857
00:38:22,949 --> 00:38:23,900
comes around.

858
00:38:23,900 --> 00:38:25,900
And I heard no complaints.

859
00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:27,900
I think he answered it pretty well.

860
00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:29,920
But as a city attorney, that's the kind of thing you would

861
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:30,900
hope someone would do.

862
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:31,900
Know the rules.

863
00:38:31,900 --> 00:38:32,900
Apply it to the facts.

864
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:38,900
Take a position and don't look back.

865
00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:41,690
There's a second conflict of interest provision in Texas

866
00:38:41,690 --> 00:38:44,900
law that's just for Platts.

867
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:46,900
It's also going to apply to PNZ.

868
00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:48,900
It's also going to apply to the city council.

869
00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:51,210
If you look at the thresholds, they look pretty similar,

870
00:38:51,210 --> 00:38:51,900
don't they?

871
00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:55,199
But it's in the Platting statute and specific to the

872
00:38:55,199 --> 00:38:59,900
approval of Platts, amending Platts, modifying Platts.

873
00:38:59,900 --> 00:39:01,900
File an affidavit and abstain.

874
00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:05,619
So those are the two Texas statutes on conflict of interest

875
00:39:05,619 --> 00:39:05,900
.

876
00:39:05,900 --> 00:39:10,900
And then you come back and you see yours again, 14.04,

877
00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:14,900
which basically requires that everyone comply with 171

878
00:39:14,900 --> 00:39:20,900
mentions voting versus participation and file an affidavit.

879
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:27,900
Back up to the prior slide.

880
00:39:27,900 --> 00:39:28,900
This one or the one before that?

881
00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:29,900
No, this one.

882
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:33,539
The question before that was how do you determine the 10%

883
00:39:33,539 --> 00:39:35,900
amount and it's off the tax return.

884
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:37,900
That's fairly finite.

885
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:41,900
Here you've got some fair market value.

886
00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:48,139
So what is the elasticity of that term, fair market value

887
00:39:48,139 --> 00:39:49,900
of business?

888
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:55,969
Or is there a tangible milestone or benchmark we can tag

889
00:39:55,969 --> 00:39:57,900
onto for that?

890
00:39:57,900 --> 00:40:00,900
I think the answer to your question is that's very elastic.

891
00:40:00,900 --> 00:40:03,900
And no, I don't know of a benchmark to use with that.

892
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:07,980
I think it goes to Mr. Eaton's point about being self-re

893
00:40:07,980 --> 00:40:08,900
porting.

894
00:40:08,900 --> 00:40:12,900
And, you know, I'm always cautioning city officials.

895
00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:14,369
Again, I have to tell them I'm not your lawyer in

896
00:40:14,369 --> 00:40:16,630
particular, but as the entity's lawyer, I'm going to

897
00:40:16,630 --> 00:40:19,900
caution you to tread lightly on this and err on the side of

898
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:24,900
caution because of the criminal penalties that come with it

899
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:24,900
.

900
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:26,900
And those are unique to the person.

901
00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:27,900
It's not the entity.

902
00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:31,900
Is this vote worth you being investigated?

903
00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:35,380
Is this vote worth you, you know, having a grand jury

904
00:40:35,380 --> 00:40:38,900
compile on your behalf and those sorts of things?

905
00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:42,900
And so I've never even seen the financials on these.

906
00:40:42,900 --> 00:40:47,039
Folks just sort of eyeball it, guess it, and usually opt on

907
00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:48,900
the side of being safe.

908
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:49,900
Thank you. Sorry to interrupt.

909
00:40:49,900 --> 00:40:51,900
No, that's a great question.

910
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:52,900
I'll get back to you in a moment.

911
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:53,900
Mr. Sullivan?

912
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:57,630
You mentioned 10% of fair market value business and also $5

913
00:40:57,630 --> 00:40:59,900
,000 of fair market value.

914
00:40:59,900 --> 00:41:01,900
Isn't that in conflict?

915
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:02,900
It's whichever is lower.

916
00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:03,900
The lower of the two.

917
00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:04,900
Yeah.

918
00:41:04,900 --> 00:41:05,900
Whichever is the lower threshold.

919
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:06,900
Mr. Eaton?

920
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:09,900
You mentioned something about filing the affidavit.

921
00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:12,900
Once you file the affidavit, is it done?

922
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:14,900
You're done with the issue?

923
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:15,900
I didn't quite follow up that one.

924
00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:20,820
You file the affidavit, which is in effect putting the

925
00:41:20,820 --> 00:41:24,900
world on notice that you own this or you've invested in

926
00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:28,900
this, and the issue is pending before the city.

927
00:41:28,900 --> 00:41:31,909
Once you've done that, there's no more action that you're

928
00:41:31,909 --> 00:41:32,900
required to do.

929
00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:35,900
Instead, it's a prohibition on action.

930
00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:37,900
You're not allowed to deliberate among the group.

931
00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:39,900
You're not allowed to vote.

932
00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:42,900
Will you pull that affidavit at a later time?

933
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:48,900
No, it's a public record forever.

934
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:51,110
And I've never seen, there's no AG opinion or court case

935
00:41:51,110 --> 00:41:53,369
that I've found that talks about having to refile an affid

936
00:41:53,369 --> 00:41:53,900
avit.

937
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:57,900
Same issue comes up the next year or the next year.

938
00:41:57,900 --> 00:42:00,789
I don't know that there's an obligation to refile once you

939
00:42:00,789 --> 00:42:02,900
've done it, if nothing has changed.

940
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:04,630
I certainly have city officials that just go through the

941
00:42:04,630 --> 00:42:07,260
step, usually because the city secretary is right behind

942
00:42:07,260 --> 00:42:09,400
them poking them saying, here's your form, it's on the

943
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:10,900
agenda, sign your form.

944
00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:14,900
Just to avoid the fight.

945
00:42:14,900 --> 00:42:15,900
Yes, sir?

946
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:18,760
>> The $2,500 of land is up to the final group's cost value

947
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,019
of the land or is that the total value of the land within

948
00:42:21,019 --> 00:42:21,900
three months?

949
00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:22,900
>> It's either.

950
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:23,900
>> I don't know.

951
00:42:23,900 --> 00:42:25,900
>> I mean, it can be.

952
00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:29,679
If your stake in it is at least $2,500, then you need to

953
00:42:29,679 --> 00:42:35,900
file the affidavit and abstain from voting on the plan.

954
00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:37,900
For pretty low thresholds.

955
00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:40,760
>> Is that the subject property or is it the land next door

956
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:41,900
to the development?

957
00:42:41,900 --> 00:42:42,900
>> It's a subject property.

958
00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:46,170
>> Okay, so if you own the land next door, and that's going

959
00:42:46,170 --> 00:42:47,900
to increase in value because-

960
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:49,900
>> Then you go back to this one.

961
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:52,900
And this one's still there.

962
00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:56,840
And there's no indication that the legislature meant to do

963
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:58,900
vetail these two together.

964
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:01,989
They were written and enacted at separate times, but it's

965
00:43:01,989 --> 00:43:02,900
still there.

966
00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:06,610
And for many years, I referenced earlier, I know some of

967
00:43:06,610 --> 00:43:10,079
you have seen it, because I've seen it in the newspaper

968
00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:10,900
articles.

969
00:43:10,900 --> 00:43:14,320
The Texas Attorney General's office will periodically

970
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:15,900
publish a little book.

971
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:19,900
The name keeps changing, but it's basically this material.

972
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:24,309
And for a decade or more, there was material in the AG's

973
00:43:24,309 --> 00:43:26,900
handbook on ethics that said,

974
00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:32,050
if you own property within 200 feet of a piece of property

975
00:43:32,050 --> 00:43:34,900
where the city is taking action,

976
00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:39,280
platting, zoning, whatever, then you have a conflict of

977
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:40,900
interest under 171.

978
00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:43,900
You need to file an affidavit and you do abstain.

979
00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:47,900
And for years, those of us in the business were asking,

980
00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:51,900
where's the 200 foot rule come from?

981
00:43:51,900 --> 00:43:52,900
And no one could ever tell us.

982
00:43:52,900 --> 00:43:55,929
So again, we're sitting around TML wondering where-- OK,

983
00:43:55,929 --> 00:43:57,900
well, the AG says 200 feet.

984
00:43:57,900 --> 00:43:59,900
So 200 feet.

985
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:03,900
If I'm 201 feet, do I no longer have a conflict?

986
00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:05,900
No.

987
00:44:05,900 --> 00:44:08,900
The AG's handbook, without a citation, says 200 feet.

988
00:44:08,900 --> 00:44:10,900
Well, if you look at this version, go ahead and look at it.

989
00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:12,900
It ain't in there.

990
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:14,900
Because eventually, they stopped putting it in there

991
00:44:14,900 --> 00:44:18,159
because the agency itself realized that was sort of a rule

992
00:44:18,159 --> 00:44:18,900
of thumb.

993
00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:19,900
There is no source for that rule.

994
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:22,900
No court case, no statute.

995
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:24,900
No one really even knows where that came from.

996
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:26,900
But it was around so long.

997
00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:31,900
I think maybe it comes from, if you know the zoning world,

998
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:34,570
you have to give notice of zoning changes to all property

999
00:44:34,570 --> 00:44:37,260
owners within 200 feet of the boundary of the subject

1000
00:44:37,260 --> 00:44:37,900
property.

1001
00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:39,900
So maybe that's where someone came up with that.

1002
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:41,900
But it's not in there anymore.

1003
00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:43,900
So it's a case by case basis.

1004
00:44:43,900 --> 00:44:46,860
If you think that rezoning property is going to have an

1005
00:44:46,860 --> 00:44:50,079
effect on your house or business just down the road, you

1006
00:44:50,079 --> 00:44:51,900
should abstain under 171.

1007
00:44:51,900 --> 00:44:54,510
If you think it will have no different effect on you than

1008
00:44:54,510 --> 00:44:57,690
it has the rest of the city, all your properties will go up

1009
00:44:57,690 --> 00:45:00,900
or go down or not be affected at all, then you don't have

1010
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:01,900
to do anything.

1011
00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:05,900
But it requires you to be aware of this and think about it.

1012
00:45:05,900 --> 00:45:08,980
And oddly enough, the more it's going to affect your

1013
00:45:08,980 --> 00:45:12,199
property value, the less you should be involved in the

1014
00:45:12,199 --> 00:45:13,900
discussion or the voting.

1015
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:20,900
Excuse me.

1016
00:45:20,900 --> 00:45:21,900
A little housekeeping.

1017
00:45:21,900 --> 00:45:25,480
When you do have questions, try to identify the mic closest

1018
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,900
to you to lean into the little table.

1019
00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:31,900
We're having some difficulty capturing everybody.

1020
00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:33,900
There's different microphones around on the table.

1021
00:45:33,900 --> 00:45:34,900
Thank you.

1022
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:35,900
You betcha.

1023
00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:43,900
Nepotism here is the state law.

1024
00:45:43,900 --> 00:45:44,900
I think I said 572 earlier.

1025
00:45:44,900 --> 00:45:48,159
It's 573 of the government code gives us our nepotism

1026
00:45:48,159 --> 00:45:48,900
statute.

1027
00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:52,550
The notion being that we should not be bestowing patronage

1028
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:53,900
on our relatives.

1029
00:45:53,900 --> 00:45:56,909
At one point in time, I think that's the only reason people

1030
00:45:56,909 --> 00:45:57,900
ran for office.

1031
00:45:57,900 --> 00:45:58,900
You want to uplift your family?

1032
00:45:58,900 --> 00:45:59,900
Fine.

1033
00:45:59,900 --> 00:46:00,900
Get elected.

1034
00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:03,900
But you know, it's not Chicago and it's not the 20s.

1035
00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:04,900
So here we are.

1036
00:46:04,900 --> 00:46:08,599
This rule applies to the mayor and the council and their

1037
00:46:08,599 --> 00:46:10,900
family within two degrees.

1038
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:14,639
If it's by affinity, which is going to be by marriage or

1039
00:46:14,639 --> 00:46:17,340
three degrees by consanguinity, which means blood or

1040
00:46:17,340 --> 00:46:17,900
adoption.

1041
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:20,900
And the way you calculate that is to count the steps.

1042
00:46:20,900 --> 00:46:25,900
I am related to my sister by two degrees.

1043
00:46:25,900 --> 00:46:28,900
For me and my parents is one step.

1044
00:46:28,900 --> 00:46:32,900
For my parents to my sister is a second step.

1045
00:46:32,900 --> 00:46:34,900
So that's how you count your steps.

1046
00:46:34,900 --> 00:46:39,900
This applies again to dollars.

1047
00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:44,219
If someone is a part time employee or full time employee,

1048
00:46:44,219 --> 00:46:45,900
it doesn't matter.

1049
00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:47,900
This rule applies.

1050
00:46:47,900 --> 00:46:51,070
If they're an independent contractor, that's not an

1051
00:46:51,070 --> 00:46:51,900
employee.

1052
00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:53,900
That's an independent contractor.

1053
00:46:53,900 --> 00:46:58,309
If they are a volunteer, this rule does not apply, which

1054
00:46:58,309 --> 00:47:01,900
makes it fun when you go into a community where everyone

1055
00:47:01,900 --> 00:47:01,900
hates everyone.

1056
00:47:01,900 --> 00:47:03,900
Everyone hates everybody.

1057
00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:04,900
And I find out why.

1058
00:47:04,900 --> 00:47:07,579
It's because the mayor's brother is chair of the Economic

1059
00:47:07,579 --> 00:47:10,780
Development Corporation and the mayor's spouse is chair of

1060
00:47:10,780 --> 00:47:12,900
Planning and Zoning Commission.

1061
00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:14,900
Okay, now I understand.

1062
00:47:14,900 --> 00:47:16,900
Now I understand why that's the case.

1063
00:47:16,900 --> 00:47:18,900
I once was city attorney of Bee Cave, Texas.

1064
00:47:18,900 --> 00:47:21,760
If you know Bee Cave, just west of Austin, where it was so

1065
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,079
fun because this mayor and council member were just boom,

1066
00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:25,900
boom, boom, boom, boom.

1067
00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:28,900
She was a no good Democrat and he was a lousy Republican.

1068
00:47:28,900 --> 00:47:30,900
And boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

1069
00:47:30,900 --> 00:47:31,900
The meeting is over.

1070
00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:32,900
Or would you like to go to dinner?

1071
00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:33,900
I don't know.

1072
00:47:33,900 --> 00:47:34,900
Let's go to Serranos.

1073
00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:37,900
They were husband and wife.

1074
00:47:37,900 --> 00:47:40,690
I represented cities where there was fathers and daughters,

1075
00:47:40,690 --> 00:47:41,900
mothers and daughters.

1076
00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:43,900
I represented cities where there were brothers.

1077
00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:46,900
Because none of this applies to that.

1078
00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:51,900
If the voters choose to elect relatives, they can do so.

1079
00:47:51,900 --> 00:47:53,900
Is it smart?

1080
00:47:53,900 --> 00:47:57,989
I know this rule is talking about giving people paid jobs

1081
00:47:57,989 --> 00:47:59,900
because of the office.

1082
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:02,280
And again, if the charter gives the city manager hiring

1083
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,280
authority, then this does not apply to employees of the

1084
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:11,900
city that trace their employment back to the city manager.

1085
00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:15,900
Giving you another look at your charter provision nepotism.

1086
00:48:15,900 --> 00:48:16,900
It looks very similar.

1087
00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:20,349
Except for it goes a little bit beyond state law and it

1088
00:48:20,349 --> 00:48:24,900
adds that department heads language in there.

1089
00:48:24,900 --> 00:48:30,900
Which is not mentioned.

1090
00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:32,900
Do we need to take a break of any sort?

1091
00:48:32,900 --> 00:48:35,650
Because we're about to transition away from the state law

1092
00:48:35,650 --> 00:48:37,900
part of the discussion into the next phase.

1093
00:48:37,900 --> 00:48:38,900
Do you want to keep going?

1094
00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:39,900
Let's continue.

1095
00:48:39,900 --> 00:48:40,900
Do you have a question?

1096
00:48:40,900 --> 00:48:41,900
Okay.

1097
00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:42,900
Yes, ma'am.

1098
00:48:42,900 --> 00:48:43,900
Ms. English.

1099
00:48:43,900 --> 00:48:48,769
In regards to nepotism, if that does happen, even though it

1100
00:48:48,769 --> 00:48:53,900
's not a charter, what resources are in place for that rule

1101
00:48:53,900 --> 00:48:53,900
not to be implemented?

1102
00:48:53,900 --> 00:48:57,900
That rule not being followed.

1103
00:48:57,900 --> 00:49:00,900
Or what's typically the recourse?

1104
00:49:00,900 --> 00:49:06,880
Well, the typical recourse is if someone is hired, they're

1105
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:07,900
fired.

1106
00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:12,130
If they weren't here for the pre-existing period, they're

1107
00:49:12,130 --> 00:49:12,900
fired.

1108
00:49:12,900 --> 00:49:15,760
And this plays out, my gosh, I just saw it near Austin

1109
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,900
recently in Maynard School District with the school board

1110
00:49:18,900 --> 00:49:21,900
and top level employees with the school district.

1111
00:49:21,900 --> 00:49:30,900
This comes up routinely.

1112
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:34,179
Does the family member have to be directly hired by the

1113
00:49:34,179 --> 00:49:37,880
city or the governing body or if they're in receipt of

1114
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:42,900
public money paid through a third party contract?

1115
00:49:42,900 --> 00:49:44,900
Is that?

1116
00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:48,760
If they're a city employee but the funding comes from a non

1117
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:49,900
-tax source?

1118
00:49:49,900 --> 00:49:53,829
They're not a city employee but they were paid through a

1119
00:49:53,829 --> 00:49:57,900
contract with city funds paid through a third party.

1120
00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:00,789
If they're not an employee of the city, I don't think this

1121
00:50:00,789 --> 00:50:03,900
rule applies, whether it's your charter rule or state.

1122
00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:06,900
Okay.

1123
00:50:06,900 --> 00:50:10,900
I'll go back to 171.

1124
00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:12,900
Voting on it would.

1125
00:50:12,900 --> 00:50:14,900
I think voting on it would.

1126
00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:18,269
And with this one, even if they are a pre-existing employee

1127
00:50:18,269 --> 00:50:21,730
, that council member is still prohibited on voting on their

1128
00:50:21,730 --> 00:50:25,329
future raises, any personnel actions or those sorts of

1129
00:50:25,329 --> 00:50:25,900
things.

1130
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:33,619
Even if they predate their relative getting elected to the

1131
00:50:33,619 --> 00:50:35,900
city council.

1132
00:50:35,900 --> 00:50:44,900
Okay. So that's to keep the state law at about an hour and

1133
00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:44,900
we're at an hour. So we'll move into this next part.

1134
00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:46,900
State law is state law is state law.

1135
00:50:46,900 --> 00:50:49,590
I don't think the interpretations I've given you are going

1136
00:50:49,590 --> 00:50:52,360
to vary from what you've read in the A.G.'s handbook or on

1137
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:53,900
your own or anywhere else.

1138
00:50:53,900 --> 00:50:57,309
What's left of our discussion is going to be a lot of my

1139
00:50:57,309 --> 00:51:00,829
opinions about the law and what I'm going to suggest to you

1140
00:51:00,829 --> 00:51:03,900
as best practices, having done this for many years, either

1141
00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:04,900
guiding my own clients through ethics issues.

1142
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:08,269
Or occasionally I'm hired a special council to help the

1143
00:51:08,269 --> 00:51:09,900
city on ethics issues.

1144
00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:14,769
If you want to foster integrity in City Hall, if that's how

1145
00:51:14,769 --> 00:51:18,480
you interpret the city council's mandate to the charter

1146
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,340
review committee, then these are the five ways I think it's

1147
00:51:22,340 --> 00:51:22,900
done.

1148
00:51:22,900 --> 00:51:25,900
And maybe you can give me three or four or five more ways.

1149
00:51:25,900 --> 00:51:27,900
Or maybe you don't like these ways.

1150
00:51:27,900 --> 00:51:30,789
But as we approach the topic of what to put in the charter,

1151
00:51:30,789 --> 00:51:33,389
if anything, or what to recommend goes into future

1152
00:51:33,389 --> 00:51:36,900
ordinance, if anything, think about these things.

1153
00:51:36,900 --> 00:51:39,760
These are my opinions, but also there's quite a bit of

1154
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,900
literature out there on the topic of government ethics.

1155
00:51:42,900 --> 00:51:46,900
And these are things that I think that work.

1156
00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:50,610
I think the number one you have to start with is leadership

1157
00:51:50,610 --> 00:51:50,900
.

1158
00:51:50,900 --> 00:51:55,159
You need if this group thinks that the community outside

1159
00:51:55,159 --> 00:51:59,579
these walls wants to see increased integrity, ethical

1160
00:51:59,579 --> 00:52:02,900
behavior, good conduct at City Hall.

1161
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:04,900
You got to start with leadership.

1162
00:52:04,900 --> 00:52:08,590
So city council mayor, city management, department heads

1163
00:52:08,590 --> 00:52:11,900
are going to have to walk the walk and talk the talk.

1164
00:52:11,900 --> 00:52:15,789
It is a very powerful indicator of whether or not you have

1165
00:52:15,789 --> 00:52:17,900
an ethical organization.

1166
00:52:17,900 --> 00:52:20,900
Do they behave the way you want them to behave?

1167
00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:23,909
Do they expect those that work for them to behave in a

1168
00:52:23,909 --> 00:52:24,900
certain way?

1169
00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:26,900
Are they role modeling?

1170
00:52:26,900 --> 00:52:30,320
Are they having a conversation on a regular basis about

1171
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,900
ethical issues that arise and they arise all the time?

1172
00:52:33,900 --> 00:52:39,900
If you can't get leadership buy in to model these rules,

1173
00:52:39,900 --> 00:52:43,329
no amount of ethics ordinances that you adopt are going to

1174
00:52:43,329 --> 00:52:46,900
result in an organization change or a cultural change.

1175
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:48,900
So you can't skip that step.

1176
00:52:48,900 --> 00:52:51,860
I trust you're going to whatever you recommend and whatever

1177
00:52:51,860 --> 00:52:54,900
ultimately is adopted is going to have leadership buy in.

1178
00:52:54,900 --> 00:52:57,900
So then you move to the next stage, training.

1179
00:52:57,900 --> 00:52:59,900
And I don't mean once a year.

1180
00:52:59,900 --> 00:53:04,090
I don't mean just once you're hired or once you're elected

1181
00:53:04,090 --> 00:53:05,900
on an ongoing basis.

1182
00:53:05,900 --> 00:53:08,489
What most of the literature is going to say is that to get

1183
00:53:08,489 --> 00:53:12,610
an ethical organization, you must have ethical conversation

1184
00:53:12,610 --> 00:53:12,900
.

1185
00:53:12,900 --> 00:53:15,900
It becomes an ongoing part of your dialogue.

1186
00:53:15,900 --> 00:53:19,900
It's something that routinely colleagues and peers discuss

1187
00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:22,969
and then their supervisors get involved and it crosses over

1188
00:53:22,969 --> 00:53:23,900
departments.

1189
00:53:23,900 --> 00:53:25,900
What is the right thing to do?

1190
00:53:25,900 --> 00:53:26,900
What should we do?

1191
00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:28,900
What's required of us to do?

1192
00:53:28,900 --> 00:53:32,179
Sometimes your staff is part of professional associations

1193
00:53:32,179 --> 00:53:33,900
that go off and do training.

1194
00:53:33,900 --> 00:53:38,719
For some folks like lawyers, city planners that are AICP

1195
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:39,900
certified,

1196
00:53:39,900 --> 00:53:42,760
you're required to go through so much ethics training a

1197
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,900
year to keep your license, to keep your certification.

1198
00:53:45,900 --> 00:53:47,900
And that's certainly part of it.

1199
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:51,519
The third step I think you have to have, this is the least

1200
00:53:51,519 --> 00:53:52,900
sexy of them all.

1201
00:53:52,900 --> 00:53:57,900
Administration, process, procedures.

1202
00:53:57,900 --> 00:54:01,900
We yield ethical results by having ethical processes.

1203
00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:04,980
It doesn't matter who you are when you apply for a plat

1204
00:54:04,980 --> 00:54:05,900
amendment.

1205
00:54:05,900 --> 00:54:08,900
It matters, did you fill out the application?

1206
00:54:08,900 --> 00:54:11,900
Did you give us the data that the ordinance requires?

1207
00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:13,900
Did you pay your fee?

1208
00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:15,900
Did you meet the timelines?

1209
00:54:15,900 --> 00:54:18,690
If you need a variance or a rezone, have you met the

1210
00:54:18,690 --> 00:54:20,900
standards to get a variance or a rezone?

1211
00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:23,900
It doesn't matter who you're related to.

1212
00:54:23,900 --> 00:54:26,900
It doesn't matter how wonderful, fantastic the project is.

1213
00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:29,900
It matters did you follow our process.

1214
00:54:29,900 --> 00:54:32,170
And it's through the boring process and procedures, the

1215
00:54:32,170 --> 00:54:36,150
forms and the checklists, that we achieve justice in a

1216
00:54:36,150 --> 00:54:37,900
procedural manner.

1217
00:54:37,900 --> 00:54:43,099
Then there's the regulation part, which is really what I

1218
00:54:43,099 --> 00:54:44,900
was asked to come talk about.

1219
00:54:44,900 --> 00:54:46,900
Adopting rules.

1220
00:54:46,900 --> 00:54:49,409
And then you're measuring people's compliance with the

1221
00:54:49,409 --> 00:54:49,900
rules.

1222
00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:50,900
What's the rule?

1223
00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:51,900
What's the action?

1224
00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:52,900
Is there compliance?

1225
00:54:52,900 --> 00:54:53,900
Is there not?

1226
00:54:53,900 --> 00:54:54,900
If there's not, is there punishment?

1227
00:54:54,900 --> 00:54:55,900
What's the punishment?

1228
00:54:55,900 --> 00:54:59,929
And so having that sort of regulatory process is something

1229
00:54:59,929 --> 00:55:01,900
that you can think about.

1230
00:55:01,900 --> 00:55:05,900
Some rules are more aspirational than others at City Hall.

1231
00:55:05,900 --> 00:55:07,900
Things we should aspire to.

1232
00:55:07,900 --> 00:55:09,900
They're somewhat lofty.

1233
00:55:09,900 --> 00:55:12,900
Some are very, very mechanical, very, very basic.

1234
00:55:12,900 --> 00:55:17,000
I've seen some of the shortest, smallest ethics ordinances

1235
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,900
have some of the strongest provisions.

1236
00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:23,170
When I ask other professionals, other practitioners, other

1237
00:55:23,170 --> 00:55:25,900
Texas ethics experts that I know that deal with City Halls,

1238
00:55:25,900 --> 00:55:26,900
what's your favorite ordinance?

1239
00:55:26,900 --> 00:55:27,900
What's the best one?

1240
00:55:27,900 --> 00:55:28,900
None of them.

1241
00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:29,900
Why?

1242
00:55:29,900 --> 00:55:33,849
Because every single ordinance was tailored to deal with

1243
00:55:33,849 --> 00:55:36,900
the demons that City was wrestling with.

1244
00:55:36,900 --> 00:55:40,769
You know, I know that Aaron and your City Attorney's Office

1245
00:55:40,769 --> 00:55:43,369
will tell you, you know, whenever you're drafting an

1246
00:55:43,369 --> 00:55:45,900
ordinance, usually there's an impetus for that.

1247
00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:49,210
And you're reacting or responding to that, whether it's a

1248
00:55:49,210 --> 00:55:51,900
dog incident or it's an ethical incident.

1249
00:55:51,900 --> 00:55:55,619
And so ordinances get drafted, and they should be drafted

1250
00:55:55,619 --> 00:55:57,900
to more fit, to fit a community.

1251
00:55:57,900 --> 00:56:00,849
But, you know, I love the one in tiny little Dripping

1252
00:56:00,849 --> 00:56:02,900
Springs, very short ordinance.

1253
00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:04,900
It's got a provision that's kind of rare to find.

1254
00:56:04,900 --> 00:56:07,900
But again, it's small town.

1255
00:56:07,900 --> 00:56:12,409
If you are a vendor of the City of Dripping Springs, and

1256
00:56:12,409 --> 00:56:16,900
you have a client that is doing business before the City of

1257
00:56:16,900 --> 00:56:19,900
Dripping Springs, you have to disclose that to the City.

1258
00:56:19,900 --> 00:56:23,579
And the City decides whether or not you get to represent

1259
00:56:23,579 --> 00:56:26,900
that other client and keep your City contract.

1260
00:56:26,900 --> 00:56:31,199
Now, I've never known the City to deny a waiver from that

1261
00:56:31,199 --> 00:56:31,900
rule.

1262
00:56:31,900 --> 00:56:32,900
But what's the issue?

1263
00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:36,550
Oh, and you're a small town and you've got an engineering

1264
00:56:36,550 --> 00:56:40,230
firm or an architecture firm or a law firm that's

1265
00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:44,900
representing City Hall and developers and builders and

1266
00:56:44,900 --> 00:56:44,900
others.

1267
00:56:44,900 --> 00:56:47,900
Everything seems a little bit cozy.

1268
00:56:47,900 --> 00:56:49,909
And the public starts thinking, hmm, there's lots of back

1269
00:56:49,909 --> 00:56:50,900
room chit chat going on.

1270
00:56:50,900 --> 00:56:53,900
There's lots of dinners and lunches going on.

1271
00:56:53,900 --> 00:56:56,469
And information's flowing freely between City Hall and the

1272
00:56:56,469 --> 00:56:57,900
developer and the builders.

1273
00:56:57,900 --> 00:57:01,500
But we, the taxpaying voters, we're not privy to those

1274
00:57:01,500 --> 00:57:02,900
conversations.

1275
00:57:02,900 --> 00:57:04,900
So they adopted a rule that takes care of that.

1276
00:57:04,900 --> 00:57:07,309
So as long as engineering firm A says, yep, we're the City

1277
00:57:07,309 --> 00:57:09,449
's engineer on this street project, but we're also

1278
00:57:09,449 --> 00:57:11,900
representing this builder over here building these homes.

1279
00:57:11,900 --> 00:57:13,250
So he goes, okay, does everyone know that? It's on City

1280
00:57:13,250 --> 00:57:14,900
Council meeting. It's on the agenda.

1281
00:57:14,900 --> 00:57:17,900
Okay, waiver approved. Go ahead.

1282
00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:19,969
Folks always have the chance to say, no, we want the

1283
00:57:19,969 --> 00:57:21,900
developer money. We don't need that City Hall money.

1284
00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:24,889
They have the choice of doing that. But every city is going

1285
00:57:24,889 --> 00:57:26,900
to adopt something unique to their rules.

1286
00:57:26,900 --> 00:57:29,769
Well, who really enforces it? Is there an ethics commission

1287
00:57:29,769 --> 00:57:32,900
? Is there an oversight view? Is there an outside party?

1288
00:57:32,900 --> 00:57:36,949
Having regulations is a common step along this path of

1289
00:57:36,949 --> 00:57:39,900
achieving a more ethical City Hall.

1290
00:57:39,900 --> 00:57:43,360
If you read some of the data that I've read and just look

1291
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,900
at some of the polls, you can go online.

1292
00:57:45,900 --> 00:57:48,760
Anyone can do it. Use Google. You don't have to be a lawyer

1293
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:48,900
.

1294
00:57:48,900 --> 00:57:53,900
And Google ethics rules, public trust, and government.

1295
00:57:53,900 --> 00:57:57,960
And you will see a steady decline in the public's trust of

1296
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:01,900
government, starting from the 70s and going on until today.

1297
00:58:01,900 --> 00:58:04,360
But then you look the other reverse, you see a spike of

1298
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:05,900
ethics rules being adopted.

1299
00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:09,309
And so there's no study that I've seen that has any

1300
00:58:09,309 --> 00:58:13,539
correlation that more ethics rules yields more public trust

1301
00:58:13,539 --> 00:58:13,900
.

1302
00:58:13,900 --> 00:58:16,849
I don't know. The same studies that I look at will say that

1303
00:58:16,849 --> 00:58:20,900
number one, it's nice that they trust local government more

1304
00:58:20,900 --> 00:58:22,900
than state and federal government.

1305
00:58:22,900 --> 00:58:26,340
And it's even better that they trust staff more than

1306
00:58:26,340 --> 00:58:27,900
elected officials.

1307
00:58:27,900 --> 00:58:29,960
Not only understand that one, they get to choose the

1308
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,900
elected officials. They don't get to choose staff.

1309
00:58:32,900 --> 00:58:36,090
But study after study after study shows employees at City

1310
00:58:36,090 --> 00:58:39,239
Hall instill more confidence in the electorate than the

1311
00:58:39,239 --> 00:58:41,900
voters, the elected officials do.

1312
00:58:41,900 --> 00:58:44,820
And still, I understand if Denton chooses to go down the

1313
00:58:44,820 --> 00:58:47,900
path of adopting a more comprehensive ethics ordinance,

1314
00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:49,730
and you all need to figure out if that's going to happen

1315
00:58:49,730 --> 00:58:51,900
because of something you recommend in the charter or not.

1316
00:58:51,900 --> 00:58:54,690
But for sure, adopting regulations and then trying to

1317
00:58:54,690 --> 00:58:57,900
achieve a compliance with those regulations is part of it.

1318
00:58:57,900 --> 00:59:01,900
What's the fifth part? The ballot box.

1319
00:59:01,900 --> 00:59:04,659
You have city after city where there is a perception of a

1320
00:59:04,659 --> 00:59:07,789
lack of transparency, the voters tend to have their say

1321
00:59:07,789 --> 00:59:09,900
when election time comes along.

1322
00:59:09,900 --> 00:59:12,800
If there's a bunch of self-dealing or backroom sweetheart,

1323
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:17,039
good old boy deals, the voters tend to find about that and

1324
00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:18,900
hold people accountable at the ballot box.

1325
00:59:18,900 --> 00:59:22,280
Maybe not all the time. And that's why sometimes you do

1326
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,150
have strong ethics ordinances and ethics commissions to

1327
00:59:25,150 --> 00:59:26,900
police that behavior.

1328
00:59:26,900 --> 00:59:29,190
It's because the voters who voted to throw the bums out

1329
00:59:29,190 --> 00:59:31,900
didn't win. The bums are still there.

1330
00:59:31,900 --> 00:59:34,389
Okay, we got to get out of some other way. We'll get at

1331
00:59:34,389 --> 00:59:35,900
them through the ethics channel.

1332
00:59:35,900 --> 00:59:40,300
And we want to debate right or wrong. We got to go

1333
00:59:40,300 --> 00:59:41,900
somewhere after the meeting to do that.

1334
00:59:41,900 --> 00:59:45,190
I think it's all part of the package. And how much the city

1335
00:59:45,190 --> 00:59:48,460
of Denton chooses to adopt something like this is going to

1336
00:59:48,460 --> 00:59:52,900
depend on more on you folks and what you recommend.

1337
00:59:52,900 --> 00:59:55,900
Some simple rules to achieve integrity on a daily basis.

1338
00:59:55,900 --> 00:59:57,900
Know the law.

1339
00:59:57,900 --> 01:00:00,210
You all just got briefed on it. You've got your notes. It's

1340
01:00:00,210 --> 01:00:02,900
there. There's really no excuse.

1341
01:00:02,900 --> 01:00:06,179
Know your city's policies and how Denton has adopted its

1342
01:00:06,179 --> 01:00:09,460
own rules, whether it's by resolution or through an

1343
01:00:09,460 --> 01:00:11,900
ordinance or the little bits you have in your charter.

1344
01:00:11,900 --> 01:00:15,980
I'm a big believer in professional norms. And I did get my

1345
01:00:15,980 --> 01:00:18,900
degree in public administration.

1346
01:00:18,900 --> 01:00:22,610
And when you read about the theories and those of us who

1347
01:00:22,610 --> 01:00:27,050
got MPAs know that a lot of discretion is entrusted to

1348
01:00:27,050 --> 01:00:29,949
employees, to department heads, to police officers, to

1349
01:00:29,949 --> 01:00:30,900
school teachers.

1350
01:00:30,900 --> 01:00:33,780
They get to make a lot of choices every single day with

1351
01:00:33,780 --> 01:00:36,900
very little oversight and no direction on the scene.

1352
01:00:36,900 --> 01:00:39,900
Well, how do you make sure that they make good decisions?

1353
01:00:39,900 --> 01:00:40,900
You get them lots of training.

1354
01:00:40,900 --> 01:00:43,820
You drill them on your expectations and you have

1355
01:00:43,820 --> 01:00:47,250
professional norms that help fill in those gaps when you

1356
01:00:47,250 --> 01:00:50,900
don't have a rule that applies to that exact situation.

1357
01:00:50,900 --> 01:00:53,929
And I know Denton has a history of being very involved in T

1358
01:00:53,929 --> 01:00:56,900
ML and other professional groups, trade groups.

1359
01:00:56,900 --> 01:01:00,780
So I'm sure your staff's getting trained and then saw an

1360
01:01:00,780 --> 01:01:04,860
article by a professional Peter Sandman, which broke it

1361
01:01:04,860 --> 01:01:07,900
down pretty easily into the acronym LEADS.

1362
01:01:07,900 --> 01:01:10,579
And don't you ask yourselves these questions every time you

1363
01:01:10,579 --> 01:01:14,900
're faced with a dilemma. Is it legal? Is it ethical?

1364
01:01:14,900 --> 01:01:18,250
Because they're not the same thing. Is it acceptable? Does

1365
01:01:18,250 --> 01:01:19,900
it just make sense?

1366
01:01:19,900 --> 01:01:24,050
Is it defensible when it's written about on the newspaper

1367
01:01:24,050 --> 01:01:26,900
front page or worse, the blogosphere?

1368
01:01:26,900 --> 01:01:30,989
When the bloggers get a hold of this, can you defend what

1369
01:01:30,989 --> 01:01:33,900
you did? Is it just sensible?

1370
01:01:33,900 --> 01:01:37,659
And it's so often the case that I can tell you, yes, that

1371
01:01:37,659 --> 01:01:41,900
the limousine trip to AT&T Stadium in Arlington was legal.

1372
01:01:41,900 --> 01:01:44,440
And yes, it was ethical because it didn't violate an ethics

1373
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,739
rule. Is it acceptable? Is it defensible? Or is it sensible

1374
01:01:46,739 --> 01:01:46,900
?

1375
01:01:46,900 --> 01:01:50,090
A lot of your face is wrinkled up when I told you. That's

1376
01:01:50,090 --> 01:01:51,900
what you're getting at. You're getting at the end of that.

1377
01:01:51,900 --> 01:01:54,179
And that's part of the conversation that really if you did

1378
01:01:54,179 --> 01:01:56,900
nothing else but have your employees, elected officials,

1379
01:01:56,900 --> 01:02:00,320
and volunteers run through this LEADS example, I bet you

1380
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:02,900
would see improved results in your community.

1381
01:02:02,900 --> 01:02:07,130
I suspect that's not going to be enough for those who want

1382
01:02:07,130 --> 01:02:11,539
a more stringent ethics code, but I think it's a good start

1383
01:02:11,539 --> 01:02:11,900
.

1384
01:02:11,900 --> 01:02:15,239
So I mentioned the professional networking. These are just

1385
01:02:15,239 --> 01:02:17,900
some of the ones that are very common in Texas.

1386
01:02:17,900 --> 01:02:20,820
American Planning Association, the Society for Public

1387
01:02:20,820 --> 01:02:21,900
Administration.

1388
01:02:21,900 --> 01:02:25,840
I was amazed that Boat, the building officials association

1389
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,900
of Texas, has a very strict code of ethics.

1390
01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:33,340
How did I know that? It's my brilliant legal mind. I was at

1391
01:02:33,340 --> 01:02:35,900
a TML conference and they have a booth.

1392
01:02:35,900 --> 01:02:38,760
So in the exhibit hall at TML, I walked up to the Boat

1393
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,059
booth and said, "What do you all do about ethics?" "Dung, d

1394
01:02:42,059 --> 01:02:42,900
ung, let us show you our code of ethics."

1395
01:02:42,900 --> 01:02:46,449
The city secretaries have one. The finance officers have

1396
01:02:46,449 --> 01:02:49,900
one. The municipal clerks have one. Your city secretaries.

1397
01:02:49,900 --> 01:02:52,840
And of course, the Texas City Management Association has

1398
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,900
the International City Management Association's code.

1399
01:02:55,900 --> 01:02:59,360
And talk about tough. I'm not sure if there are any ICMA

1400
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,659
members, TCMA members here. They'll boot you out of the

1401
01:03:02,659 --> 01:03:03,900
organization.

1402
01:03:03,900 --> 01:03:08,269
They self-police it. They are so strict, they won't let me

1403
01:03:08,269 --> 01:03:09,900
teach ethics for TCMA.

1404
01:03:09,900 --> 01:03:11,900
Because you've got to be a city manager to teach ethics.

1405
01:03:11,900 --> 01:03:14,309
And you've got to be a dues paying member of TCMA to teach

1406
01:03:14,309 --> 01:03:14,900
ethics.

1407
01:03:14,900 --> 01:03:17,920
And they don't want my curriculum. They want their ethics

1408
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:19,900
rules, their tenets to be taught.

1409
01:03:19,900 --> 01:03:22,969
They take it seriously. So much so that I've known of, I

1410
01:03:22,969 --> 01:03:26,329
didn't represent them, I've known of city managers who have

1411
01:03:26,329 --> 01:03:27,900
this great side deal.

1412
01:03:27,900 --> 01:03:30,820
And the city really would benefit from contracting with

1413
01:03:30,820 --> 01:03:33,900
this side deal. But TCMA would never let this happen.

1414
01:03:33,900 --> 01:03:38,139
So city manager resigns from TCMA. City does contract with

1415
01:03:38,139 --> 01:03:39,900
city manager's side business.

1416
01:03:39,900 --> 01:03:45,050
Once it's all inked, city manager rejoins TCMA. Nice trick,

1417
01:03:45,050 --> 01:03:48,900
right? Very ethical being.

1418
01:03:48,900 --> 01:03:51,369
But these are tough rules. So while some of it could be

1419
01:03:51,369 --> 01:03:55,090
fluff, most of these associations I am active in in one way

1420
01:03:55,090 --> 01:03:55,900
or the other.

1421
01:03:55,900 --> 01:03:58,340
And they take their ethics training very seriously. I think

1422
01:03:58,340 --> 01:04:01,900
money you spend on sending your people to stuff like this

1423
01:04:01,900 --> 01:04:02,900
is money well spent.

1424
01:04:02,900 --> 01:04:07,900
So all of that funnels down to what's in front of you.

1425
01:04:07,900 --> 01:04:11,190
And the question that has come up, I've seen some of your

1426
01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:13,900
minutes, I've spoken to some of your members.

1427
01:04:13,900 --> 01:04:18,670
Is this motion of your charter, is it enough? Is it lacking

1428
01:04:18,670 --> 01:04:21,900
? Is it too much? Is it holding you back?

1429
01:04:21,900 --> 01:04:25,170
Do you need a stronger, more comprehensive ethics ordinance

1430
01:04:25,170 --> 01:04:27,900
than whatever ordinances you have on the books?

1431
01:04:27,900 --> 01:04:31,920
Do you need to repeal and replace the ethics policy that

1432
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:32,900
you have?

1433
01:04:32,900 --> 01:04:36,199
When you look at the world of ethics ordinances, these are

1434
01:04:36,199 --> 01:04:38,900
the kinds of things they normally address.

1435
01:04:38,900 --> 01:04:42,610
Will there be a border commission? You know, it's amazing

1436
01:04:42,610 --> 01:04:42,900
to me.

1437
01:04:42,900 --> 01:04:45,559
One of the standards that's held out there as being one of

1438
01:04:45,559 --> 01:04:49,590
the more comprehensive, thorough, well managed is the city

1439
01:04:49,590 --> 01:04:50,900
of San Antonio.

1440
01:04:50,900 --> 01:04:54,340
But the city of San Antonio, not only do they have an

1441
01:04:54,340 --> 01:04:57,900
ethics review commission that processes this stuff,

1442
01:04:57,900 --> 01:05:01,469
not only do they have ethics advisors who are lawyers who

1443
01:05:01,469 --> 01:05:03,900
don't work under the city attorney,

1444
01:05:03,900 --> 01:05:07,090
they work under the auditor, the internal auditor's office

1445
01:05:07,090 --> 01:05:07,900
of the city.

1446
01:05:07,900 --> 01:05:10,639
And even then, there are some in the community that are not

1447
01:05:10,639 --> 01:05:12,900
pleased with the process and they want a completely

1448
01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:16,900
independent body not appointed by city council.

1449
01:05:16,900 --> 01:05:19,900
The auditor is appointed by city council.

1450
01:05:19,900 --> 01:05:22,070
The ethics review commission in San Antonio is appointed by

1451
01:05:22,070 --> 01:05:22,900
the city council.

1452
01:05:22,900 --> 01:05:25,900
We need one from somewhere else. Where would it come from?

1453
01:05:25,900 --> 01:05:25,900
I don't know.

1454
01:05:25,900 --> 01:05:29,179
Are they elected? Are we going to elect an ethics

1455
01:05:29,179 --> 01:05:29,900
commission?

1456
01:05:29,900 --> 01:05:33,760
I was in El Paso last week advising them on this exact same

1457
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:34,900
issue in El Paso.

1458
01:05:34,900 --> 01:05:37,900
And what are some people clamoring for in El Paso?

1459
01:05:37,900 --> 01:05:42,670
Oh, we'll let our municipal court judges select our ethics

1460
01:05:42,670 --> 01:05:44,900
review commission members.

1461
01:05:44,900 --> 01:05:48,250
Because you know how objective and non-political municipal

1462
01:05:48,250 --> 01:05:49,900
court judges are, right?

1463
01:05:49,900 --> 01:05:52,900
I mean, El Paso, they've got like 20 judges.

1464
01:05:52,900 --> 01:05:55,570
It's a very large court. They have night, day court, night

1465
01:05:55,570 --> 01:05:56,900
court, the whole thing.

1466
01:05:56,900 --> 01:06:00,429
Wow, as a city attorney, I get a little knot in my stomach

1467
01:06:00,429 --> 01:06:02,900
the thought of judges picking them.

1468
01:06:02,900 --> 01:06:03,900
But you get to decide.

1469
01:06:03,900 --> 01:06:06,449
The city of Denton gets to decide if you're going to have a

1470
01:06:06,449 --> 01:06:09,900
thorough ethics ordinance, who's going to administer that?

1471
01:06:09,900 --> 01:06:13,500
Is it volunteers? Is it staff? Is the city of Plano where

1472
01:06:13,500 --> 01:06:16,900
complaints are sent to the city council for action?

1473
01:06:16,900 --> 01:06:18,900
Okay, so there's no commission that goes to city council.

1474
01:06:18,900 --> 01:06:21,900
Is there going to be some sort of preview?

1475
01:06:21,900 --> 01:06:25,980
Is someone going to do an initial assessment, a preliminary

1476
01:06:25,980 --> 01:06:30,030
evaluation to make sure a complaint has merit before it

1477
01:06:30,030 --> 01:06:33,389
goes prime time on the big screen broadcast on the news

1478
01:06:33,389 --> 01:06:34,900
channel, whatever?

1479
01:06:34,900 --> 01:06:37,059
Who's going to do that? Is the city attorney's office? Is

1480
01:06:37,059 --> 01:06:38,900
it the auditor's office?

1481
01:06:38,900 --> 01:06:42,639
Is it a subcommittee? What are you going to do to make sure

1482
01:06:42,639 --> 01:06:46,150
that neighbor on neighbor violence isn't showing up in the

1483
01:06:46,150 --> 01:06:47,900
form of an ethics complaint?

1484
01:06:47,900 --> 01:06:52,260
Or warring candidates in a contended election is going to

1485
01:06:52,260 --> 01:06:54,900
come up as an ethics complaint.

1486
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:57,900
Well, cities vary on which version they're going to do.

1487
01:06:57,900 --> 01:07:00,900
What is your process and criteria? One town brought me in,

1488
01:07:00,900 --> 01:07:03,969
they had the requirement to review their code of ethics, I

1489
01:07:03,969 --> 01:07:05,900
think it was every five years.

1490
01:07:05,900 --> 01:07:08,150
So they got a new ethics review commission, they're going

1491
01:07:08,150 --> 01:07:10,309
to review their ethics ordinance and look at it, say, I

1492
01:07:10,309 --> 01:07:11,900
want to take a look at the ordinance.

1493
01:07:11,900 --> 01:07:13,900
Wow, two interesting parts of this.

1494
01:07:13,900 --> 01:07:18,000
Your ordinance says that deliberations regarding ethics

1495
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:22,269
complaints in the preliminary stage by the commission are

1496
01:07:22,269 --> 01:07:25,900
confidential and closed door.

1497
01:07:25,900 --> 01:07:29,070
When you look at what the powers of that group is, the

1498
01:07:29,070 --> 01:07:31,739
ethics review commission in that town looks a whole lot

1499
01:07:31,739 --> 01:07:32,900
like a governing body.

1500
01:07:32,900 --> 01:07:35,480
Just like a city council or PNZ or a board of trustees or

1501
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:36,900
county commissioners.

1502
01:07:36,900 --> 01:07:38,900
So the open meetings act is triggered.

1503
01:07:38,900 --> 01:07:42,099
So what provision allows you to, is it a personnel matter

1504
01:07:42,099 --> 01:07:44,900
that allows you to go into executive session?

1505
01:07:44,900 --> 01:07:47,800
Or you look further down, all documentation regarding

1506
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,900
complaints that are unsubstantiated or confidential.

1507
01:07:50,900 --> 01:07:53,269
I think the open records act, the public information act,

1508
01:07:53,269 --> 01:07:54,900
has got a lot to say about that issue.

1509
01:07:54,900 --> 01:07:57,909
So you're looking at the rules and process and procedures

1510
01:07:57,909 --> 01:08:00,789
and the practicalities of state law and the mandates of

1511
01:08:00,789 --> 01:08:02,900
state law are going to get involved.

1512
01:08:02,900 --> 01:08:04,900
Your ordinance will need to reconcile that at some point.

1513
01:08:04,900 --> 01:08:09,090
What is the punishment? Is it a letter of admonishment? Is

1514
01:08:09,090 --> 01:08:10,900
it a public mocking?

1515
01:08:10,900 --> 01:08:13,900
Do this again and we shall taunt you in public. Okay.

1516
01:08:13,900 --> 01:08:16,899
Maybe it's a censure, a public reprimand.

1517
01:08:16,899 --> 01:08:18,899
Well, employees can get fired.

1518
01:08:18,899 --> 01:08:24,899
Volunteers can get booted off the board.

1519
01:08:24,899 --> 01:08:26,899
I like this one representation of others.

1520
01:08:26,899 --> 01:08:30,000
It's a common attribute of many ethics ordinances to say,

1521
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,899
if you are a member of a board or commission, you cannot,

1522
01:08:32,899 --> 01:08:36,789
for money, represent anyone else before that board or

1523
01:08:36,789 --> 01:08:37,899
commission.

1524
01:08:37,899 --> 01:08:40,090
But you can play with it. Is it that board or commission

1525
01:08:40,090 --> 01:08:41,899
only or is it all boards and commissions?

1526
01:08:41,899 --> 01:08:45,180
Or if you do it for volunteer, on a volunteer basis, are

1527
01:08:45,180 --> 01:08:45,899
you okay?

1528
01:08:45,899 --> 01:08:49,449
I can represent my mother before PNZ, but I can't resent my

1529
01:08:49,449 --> 01:08:50,899
neighbor for money.

1530
01:08:50,899 --> 01:08:52,899
The ordinances change.

1531
01:08:52,899 --> 01:08:54,979
But in the city of San Marcos, they had an ordinance that

1532
01:08:54,979 --> 01:08:55,899
just says, period.

1533
01:08:55,899 --> 01:08:58,859
If you serve on a city board or commission, you cannot

1534
01:08:58,859 --> 01:09:03,760
represent somebody at City Hall if on any other board or

1535
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:04,899
commission.

1536
01:09:04,899 --> 01:09:08,060
And the chair of planning and zoning broke that rule and

1537
01:09:08,060 --> 01:09:10,689
was automatically under the ordinance kicked off his chair

1538
01:09:10,689 --> 01:09:11,899
of planning and zoning.

1539
01:09:11,899 --> 01:09:15,899
Yeah, the bad news, he was a lawyer.

1540
01:09:15,899 --> 01:09:17,899
Lawyers are just the worst.

1541
01:09:17,899 --> 01:09:21,579
And so he sued the city of San Marcos, wanting to get his

1542
01:09:21,579 --> 01:09:22,899
seat back on PNZ.

1543
01:09:22,899 --> 01:09:25,899
Most PNZ commissioners I know would go, woohoo, thank you.

1544
01:09:25,899 --> 01:09:28,899
I've done my public duty, I can go home.

1545
01:09:28,899 --> 01:09:31,439
No, he sued and he lost and went all the way up to the San

1546
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:34,880
Antonio Court of Appeals, which found that the volunteer

1547
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:36,899
had no property interest,

1548
01:09:36,899 --> 01:09:40,399
no justiciable right in being on planning and zoning, that

1549
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:44,479
when he agreed to serve in that capacity, he agreed knowing

1550
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:45,899
the city's rules.

1551
01:09:45,899 --> 01:09:48,899
And when he broke the rules, he was out.

1552
01:09:48,899 --> 01:09:51,090
And that's one of the few actual reported appellate

1553
01:09:51,090 --> 01:09:53,899
opinions we have on a municipal ethics ordinance in Texas.

1554
01:09:53,899 --> 01:09:57,750
Conflicts and gifts, maybe you think that the $50 rule is

1555
01:09:57,750 --> 01:09:58,899
too generous.

1556
01:09:58,899 --> 01:10:03,899
Knock it down to $25 or $10 or $0.

1557
01:10:03,899 --> 01:10:06,390
Another town I represented, they're going through their

1558
01:10:06,390 --> 01:10:08,899
ethics ordinance and boy oh boy, they set their targets.

1559
01:10:08,899 --> 01:10:11,899
No comped meals.

1560
01:10:11,899 --> 01:10:15,899
The definition of a gift means a comped meal.

1561
01:10:15,899 --> 01:10:17,899
I said, okay, can we table out to next meeting?

1562
01:10:17,899 --> 01:10:18,899
Sure.

1563
01:10:18,899 --> 01:10:21,359
In between there, I called the chief, chief of police, come

1564
01:10:21,359 --> 01:10:22,899
join us at the ethics commission.

1565
01:10:22,899 --> 01:10:24,899
And he's there, what have we done wrong?

1566
01:10:24,899 --> 01:10:25,899
What have our officers done wrong?

1567
01:10:25,899 --> 01:10:26,899
I said, what do you mean?

1568
01:10:26,899 --> 01:10:29,899
Well, I don't know about Denton, but a lot of other places,

1569
01:10:29,899 --> 01:10:31,899
when you show up in a police or fire uniform,

1570
01:10:31,899 --> 01:10:35,069
you often don't pay for your tab or you don't pay for the

1571
01:10:35,069 --> 01:10:35,899
full tab.

1572
01:10:35,899 --> 01:10:37,899
I know because I've been there.

1573
01:10:37,899 --> 01:10:38,899
I pay.

1574
01:10:38,899 --> 01:10:39,899
I get my bill.

1575
01:10:39,899 --> 01:10:42,449
But the police officer sitting next to me that I'm having

1576
01:10:42,449 --> 01:10:43,899
lunch with gets his copped.

1577
01:10:43,899 --> 01:10:45,899
It happens a lot.

1578
01:10:45,899 --> 01:10:46,899
Well, why would you guess?

1579
01:10:46,899 --> 01:10:48,899
I don't know.

1580
01:10:48,899 --> 01:10:50,899
If cops are there and police cars are parked out front,

1581
01:10:50,899 --> 01:10:52,899
maybe the place won't get robbed.

1582
01:10:52,899 --> 01:10:54,899
Maybe they're really appreciative.

1583
01:10:54,899 --> 01:10:56,899
Maybe they hope the cops will respond to calls faster.

1584
01:10:56,899 --> 01:10:58,899
I don't know.

1585
01:10:58,899 --> 01:11:00,949
I don't know if the cops don't change who they respond to

1586
01:11:00,949 --> 01:11:01,899
based on free meals.

1587
01:11:01,899 --> 01:11:04,149
I know that when I travel, whenever I see a restaurant

1588
01:11:04,149 --> 01:11:06,899
looks like a dump, but there's a fire truck and two police

1589
01:11:06,899 --> 01:11:07,899
cars parked there,

1590
01:11:07,899 --> 01:11:10,270
that's where I'm eating because the food's guaranteed to be

1591
01:11:10,270 --> 01:11:10,899
top notch.

1592
01:11:10,899 --> 01:11:12,899
So I don't know why restaurateurs do that.

1593
01:11:12,899 --> 01:11:16,670
But in this town, they said, sorry, chief, we pay your

1594
01:11:16,670 --> 01:11:20,109
officers enough so they can buy their own breakfast, lunch

1595
01:11:20,109 --> 01:11:20,899
and dinner.

1596
01:11:20,899 --> 01:11:22,899
If you've got an issue with how much they're getting paid,

1597
01:11:22,899 --> 01:11:26,050
bring it to the council during budget time, but no comped

1598
01:11:26,050 --> 01:11:26,899
meals.

1599
01:11:26,899 --> 01:11:29,899
Chief's like, okay, tell me the rule.

1600
01:11:29,899 --> 01:11:31,899
We'll follow the rule.

1601
01:11:31,899 --> 01:11:35,529
So some go well beyond the gift rule when it comes to those

1602
01:11:35,529 --> 01:11:36,899
sorts of things.

1603
01:11:36,899 --> 01:11:37,899
Moonlighting is a big one.

1604
01:11:37,899 --> 01:11:40,760
And again, I pick on police officers because that's where I

1605
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:41,899
get the HR problems.

1606
01:11:41,899 --> 01:11:46,020
Usually it's because the department will set a policy, not

1607
01:11:46,020 --> 01:11:46,899
the city.

1608
01:11:46,899 --> 01:11:48,899
So okay, police officers can moonlight as security.

1609
01:11:48,899 --> 01:11:49,899
Fine.

1610
01:11:49,899 --> 01:11:51,899
Can they wear the city uniform?

1611
01:11:51,899 --> 01:11:52,899
Can they have a city car?

1612
01:11:52,899 --> 01:11:56,899
Is the city getting paid for use of the city car?

1613
01:11:56,899 --> 01:12:00,340
Can they be security anywhere or anywhere except those

1614
01:12:00,340 --> 01:12:03,899
places that have a TABC liquor license, beer permit?

1615
01:12:03,899 --> 01:12:06,029
Okay, they can be anywhere that has a liquor permit, but

1616
01:12:06,029 --> 01:12:07,899
nowhere that's a sexually oriented business.

1617
01:12:07,899 --> 01:12:10,899
I mean, on and on and on and on.

1618
01:12:10,899 --> 01:12:13,489
Is the same thing true for your planning department, your

1619
01:12:13,489 --> 01:12:14,899
engineering department?

1620
01:12:14,899 --> 01:12:17,899
Do you care if employees have outside jobs?

1621
01:12:17,899 --> 01:12:19,899
If so, what are the rules on doing that?

1622
01:12:19,899 --> 01:12:21,899
Otherwise, it's usually legal for them to do so.

1623
01:12:21,899 --> 01:12:25,899
As long as they're not using city equipment to do that.

1624
01:12:25,899 --> 01:12:29,449
And I even have a guy recently, a city planner who was ind

1625
01:12:29,449 --> 01:12:31,489
icted because even though the council knew he had a sideline

1626
01:12:31,489 --> 01:12:33,899
business, he told everyone he had a sideline business,

1627
01:12:33,899 --> 01:12:38,170
he mistakenly responded to a personal business issue with

1628
01:12:38,170 --> 01:12:39,899
his city email address.

1629
01:12:39,899 --> 01:12:43,130
And the DA said that use of a city email address was

1630
01:12:43,130 --> 01:12:47,010
abusive office and abusive city equipment and resources and

1631
01:12:47,010 --> 01:12:47,899
had him indicted for that.

1632
01:12:47,899 --> 01:12:49,899
That's still pending.

1633
01:12:49,899 --> 01:12:52,520
That's more strict than I've ever heard of from the

1634
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:53,899
criminal standpoint.

1635
01:12:53,899 --> 01:12:55,899
Revolving door is big.

1636
01:12:55,899 --> 01:12:58,760
City of Dallas did not have a revolving door provision in

1637
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:01,970
its code of ordinances until they created a new sports

1638
01:13:01,970 --> 01:13:03,899
authority, got the taxes approved,

1639
01:13:03,899 --> 01:13:07,010
got the bonds issued, and city manager goes and resigns

1640
01:13:07,010 --> 01:13:10,180
from the city of Dallas to emerge as executive director of

1641
01:13:10,180 --> 01:13:11,899
the new sports authority.

1642
01:13:11,899 --> 01:13:14,899
Now the city of Dallas has a revolving door.

1643
01:13:14,899 --> 01:13:17,979
Again, a lot of these ethics ordinances, no matter how hard

1644
01:13:17,979 --> 01:13:21,319
you try to draft the perfect beast, they are in response to

1645
01:13:21,319 --> 01:13:23,899
things that come up in your community.

1646
01:13:23,899 --> 01:13:24,899
Do you have rules?

1647
01:13:24,899 --> 01:13:26,899
I think the city of Plano has rules.

1648
01:13:26,899 --> 01:13:30,050
If you're a city council member, you can't represent

1649
01:13:30,050 --> 01:13:33,689
someone before the city for six months or 90 days after you

1650
01:13:33,689 --> 01:13:34,899
've left office.

1651
01:13:34,899 --> 01:13:37,510
If you're an employee, you have to wait a year before you

1652
01:13:37,510 --> 01:13:38,899
can come back and do that.

1653
01:13:38,899 --> 01:13:41,609
If you're a volunteer on boards and commissions, it's a

1654
01:13:41,609 --> 01:13:42,899
certain time period.

1655
01:13:42,899 --> 01:13:46,710
If you don't have a revolving door, state law does not

1656
01:13:46,710 --> 01:13:47,899
restrict it.

1657
01:13:47,899 --> 01:13:51,899
There is a state statute for state employees.

1658
01:13:51,899 --> 01:13:54,979
So if you work at TCEQ or the Water Development Board and

1659
01:13:54,979 --> 01:13:57,899
there's a time period of time, usually it's two years

1660
01:13:57,899 --> 01:14:01,430
before you can take a payment at an outside employer

1661
01:14:01,430 --> 01:14:04,899
working on the exact same issue that you worked on.

1662
01:14:04,899 --> 01:14:07,539
But if you're working on unrelated issues, unrelated to

1663
01:14:07,539 --> 01:14:10,239
your time at state employment, then you can jump ship from

1664
01:14:10,239 --> 01:14:12,899
the state agency and go to work in private practice.

1665
01:14:12,899 --> 01:14:16,890
But unless you adopt a local rule on the revolving door,

1666
01:14:16,890 --> 01:14:20,659
there is no such limitation on staff, electeds, or

1667
01:14:20,659 --> 01:14:21,899
volunteers.

1668
01:14:21,899 --> 01:14:23,899
Purchasing rules is a whole other topic.

1669
01:14:23,899 --> 01:14:26,840
Your procurement department is going to have those that go

1670
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:30,039
beyond just the bidding requirements, competitive proposal

1671
01:14:30,039 --> 01:14:33,029
requirements, and the historically underutilized business

1672
01:14:33,029 --> 01:14:33,899
requirements.

1673
01:14:33,899 --> 01:14:37,420
But those types of limitations on spending money and

1674
01:14:37,420 --> 01:14:40,899
contracting also achieve some ethical results.

1675
01:14:40,899 --> 01:14:43,899
Disclosures, you know the state law disclosures.

1676
01:14:43,899 --> 01:14:46,899
Some cities have additional disclosure requirements.

1677
01:14:46,899 --> 01:14:51,130
Lobbying is one that I would like to see more of, but they

1678
01:14:51,130 --> 01:14:52,899
're very unpopular.

1679
01:14:52,899 --> 01:14:56,189
In part because lobbying restrictions are restricting

1680
01:14:56,189 --> 01:14:57,899
people talking to people.

1681
01:14:57,899 --> 01:14:59,899
Grown ups talking to grown ups.

1682
01:14:59,899 --> 01:15:03,289
And also the lobbyists are pretty good at lobbying on

1683
01:15:03,289 --> 01:15:04,899
behalf of lobbyists.

1684
01:15:04,899 --> 01:15:08,039
Yeah, I met the guy who created the Lobbying Association in

1685
01:15:08,039 --> 01:15:11,050
Austin that lobbies on behalf of all of their lobbyists in

1686
01:15:11,050 --> 01:15:11,899
the state.

1687
01:15:11,899 --> 01:15:13,899
It's a great thing to do.

1688
01:15:13,899 --> 01:15:17,739
And I know that even in Austin, for example, where I live

1689
01:15:17,739 --> 01:15:20,859
or my office is, I've helped communities that have

1690
01:15:20,859 --> 01:15:22,899
incorporated before as cities.

1691
01:15:22,899 --> 01:15:25,899
And one of them was in partially in Austin's ETJ.

1692
01:15:25,899 --> 01:15:27,899
They wanted Austin to release it.

1693
01:15:27,899 --> 01:15:31,050
They wanted to knock on doors and try to convince people to

1694
01:15:31,050 --> 01:15:31,899
release it.

1695
01:15:31,899 --> 01:15:34,329
Well, Austin's ethics ordinance has a lobbying component

1696
01:15:34,329 --> 01:15:36,899
that says if you're going to lobby, you got to register.

1697
01:15:36,899 --> 01:15:37,899
What's your name?

1698
01:15:37,899 --> 01:15:38,899
Who's your client?

1699
01:15:38,899 --> 01:15:39,899
What's your issue?

1700
01:15:39,899 --> 01:15:42,899
And pay a fee, which back then it was like $500 a year.

1701
01:15:42,899 --> 01:15:45,899
It's a substantial registration fee.

1702
01:15:45,899 --> 01:15:48,899
I think it's fair game.

1703
01:15:48,899 --> 01:15:52,000
And even right now, currently pending, both Travis County

1704
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:55,119
and city of Austin are reviewing and revising their lobby

1705
01:15:55,119 --> 01:15:55,899
ist rules.

1706
01:15:55,899 --> 01:15:59,399
And another part that's sort of ethics related, you see

1707
01:15:59,399 --> 01:16:03,060
cities starting to do a little bit of, and that's campaign

1708
01:16:03,060 --> 01:16:03,899
finance.

1709
01:16:03,899 --> 01:16:06,899
Some cities, San Antonio is one of the examples.

1710
01:16:06,899 --> 01:16:11,899
I think it's if you give more than $1,000 to a candidate,

1711
01:16:11,899 --> 01:16:15,600
you are banned, prohibited from entering to certain kinds

1712
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:18,899
of contracts with the city for a period of time.

1713
01:16:18,899 --> 01:16:22,449
And it's not all contracts, but it's categories of the

1714
01:16:22,449 --> 01:16:23,899
major contracts.

1715
01:16:23,899 --> 01:16:27,529
And I've heard anecdotally from some of the staffers over

1716
01:16:27,529 --> 01:16:31,239
at city of San Antonio that the elected officials hate that

1717
01:16:31,239 --> 01:16:31,899
rule.

1718
01:16:31,899 --> 01:16:36,039
It really makes raising money for a campaign, a modern

1719
01:16:36,039 --> 01:16:37,899
campaign difficult.

1720
01:16:37,899 --> 01:16:39,899
The vendors love that rule.

1721
01:16:39,899 --> 01:16:40,899
Oh, thank God.

1722
01:16:40,899 --> 01:16:43,770
I can now have lunch and breakfast or dinner or go home,

1723
01:16:43,770 --> 01:16:46,760
whatever, or see them at the Lions meeting and they don't

1724
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:47,899
have their hand out.

1725
01:16:47,899 --> 01:16:51,029
Constantly asking for donations, receptions, hosting events

1726
01:16:51,029 --> 01:16:51,899
and whatever.

1727
01:16:51,899 --> 01:16:55,420
So if a city were to adopt campaign finance laws, they can

1728
01:16:55,420 --> 01:16:58,710
have that separate or they can have it as part of their

1729
01:16:58,710 --> 01:16:59,899
code of ethics.

1730
01:16:59,899 --> 01:17:00,899
This is not exhaustive.

1731
01:17:00,899 --> 01:17:04,250
There's plenty of other things that are in ethics ordin

1732
01:17:04,250 --> 01:17:04,899
ances.

1733
01:17:04,899 --> 01:17:07,899
Whoever designs one for Denton, if you go down that road,

1734
01:17:07,899 --> 01:17:10,949
is going to have to kind of go through a list, I think,

1735
01:17:10,949 --> 01:17:12,899
first of what's the problems?

1736
01:17:12,899 --> 01:17:15,899
What are the boogeyman that keep you awake at night?

1737
01:17:15,899 --> 01:17:19,420
What are the issues that the community is upset about or

1738
01:17:19,420 --> 01:17:22,720
concerned about that we need to address that are not

1739
01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:25,899
already sufficiently addressed elsewhere?

1740
01:17:25,899 --> 01:17:27,899
As a lawyer, it's a general rule.

1741
01:17:27,899 --> 01:17:31,659
I don't know how Anita Burgess or how Erin Leal is going to

1742
01:17:31,659 --> 01:17:32,899
approach this.

1743
01:17:32,899 --> 01:17:36,949
I tend to try to counsel clients against duplicating what

1744
01:17:36,949 --> 01:17:38,899
is already in state law.

1745
01:17:38,899 --> 01:17:41,600
Whether it's regulating dogs or regulating ethics or

1746
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:42,899
regulating whatever.

1747
01:17:42,899 --> 01:17:45,899
Go above and beyond if you need to.

1748
01:17:45,899 --> 01:17:47,899
Fill in the gaps if you need to.

1749
01:17:47,899 --> 01:17:52,899
I don't see a lot of benefit in that level of overlap.

1750
01:17:52,899 --> 01:17:55,250
By way of example, and this is all in the media, so I'm not

1751
01:17:55,250 --> 01:17:56,899
conveying anything confidential.

1752
01:17:56,899 --> 01:17:57,899
That would be unethical.

1753
01:17:57,899 --> 01:18:02,899
Last week, the dilemma before the El Paso Ethics Commission

1754
01:18:02,899 --> 01:18:06,430
was that mayor and council members have been publicly

1755
01:18:06,430 --> 01:18:08,899
accused of violating the Open Meetings Act

1756
01:18:08,899 --> 01:18:13,899
by having a series of discussions less than a quorum

1757
01:18:13,899 --> 01:18:16,899
without public notice or public participation.

1758
01:18:16,899 --> 01:18:22,479
Some call that a rolling quorum, a walking quorum, whatever

1759
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:22,899
.

1760
01:18:22,899 --> 01:18:26,390
Ethics complaints were filed against the mayor and those

1761
01:18:26,390 --> 01:18:29,899
council members for violating the Open Meetings Act.

1762
01:18:29,899 --> 01:18:33,119
And the question that I had to wrestle with was does the

1763
01:18:33,119 --> 01:18:36,180
Ethics Review Commission of the City of El Paso have

1764
01:18:36,180 --> 01:18:39,899
jurisdiction and authority over the Open Meetings Act?

1765
01:18:39,899 --> 01:18:41,899
Well, some can look at language.

1766
01:18:41,899 --> 01:18:44,010
There should be lawyers themselves who are good at finding

1767
01:18:44,010 --> 01:18:47,289
some obscure language and trying to bootstrap the Open Meet

1768
01:18:47,289 --> 01:18:48,899
ings Act into the ethics ordinance.

1769
01:18:48,899 --> 01:18:50,899
And I declined to do that.

1770
01:18:50,899 --> 01:18:54,899
I did not support that interpretation.

1771
01:18:54,899 --> 01:18:57,250
And was I influenced by the fact that I know the Texas

1772
01:18:57,250 --> 01:18:59,899
Rangers have been in City Hall interviewing people?

1773
01:18:59,899 --> 01:19:02,859
Was I influenced by the fact that little birdies have told

1774
01:19:02,859 --> 01:19:04,899
me grand juries have been convened?

1775
01:19:04,899 --> 01:19:07,899
I don't know. Grand juries, those are secret deliberations.

1776
01:19:07,899 --> 01:19:10,899
I have no idea.

1777
01:19:10,899 --> 01:19:13,899
But the state is handling that.

1778
01:19:13,899 --> 01:19:15,899
But that's just one guy's opinion.

1779
01:19:15,899 --> 01:19:18,869
Several on the Ethics Review Commission said this is

1780
01:19:18,869 --> 01:19:21,899
exactly the kind of stuff we should be reviewing.

1781
01:19:21,899 --> 01:19:24,020
If it's not on our ethics ordinance, it should be in our

1782
01:19:24,020 --> 01:19:24,899
ethics ordinance.

1783
01:19:24,899 --> 01:19:26,899
What if the state does nothing?

1784
01:19:26,899 --> 01:19:28,880
What if there are no bills? What if they go to trial and

1785
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:29,899
the jury finds nothing?

1786
01:19:29,899 --> 01:19:34,130
We still think that if they did this, it was unethical for

1787
01:19:34,130 --> 01:19:37,439
them to do so and we should hold them accountable as an

1788
01:19:37,439 --> 01:19:38,899
ethics commission.

1789
01:19:38,899 --> 01:19:40,899
Okay. That's what you think.

1790
01:19:40,899 --> 01:19:43,460
And if you want the council to amend the ordinance to do

1791
01:19:43,460 --> 01:19:45,979
that, that's a political policy conversation for the city

1792
01:19:45,979 --> 01:19:46,899
council to do that.

1793
01:19:46,899 --> 01:19:49,899
Some ethics ordinances are incredibly broad.

1794
01:19:49,899 --> 01:19:51,899
Some are very narrow.

1795
01:19:51,899 --> 01:19:55,890
If you're San Antonio, my gosh, you will have to have a

1796
01:19:55,890 --> 01:19:59,899
very, very substantial ethics infrastructure.

1797
01:19:59,899 --> 01:20:00,899
I don't know what else to call it.

1798
01:20:00,899 --> 01:20:05,609
The personnel, the funding to go through all the things

1799
01:20:05,609 --> 01:20:07,899
that San Antonio monitors.

1800
01:20:07,899 --> 01:20:09,899
And they do it for about ten complaints a year.

1801
01:20:09,899 --> 01:20:13,020
Somewhere between ten and eight complaints a year filed in

1802
01:20:13,020 --> 01:20:13,899
San Antonio.

1803
01:20:13,899 --> 01:20:16,560
In El Paso, I think probably seven have been filed since I

1804
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:17,899
've been standing here.

1805
01:20:17,899 --> 01:20:23,760
It's a little bit, it's way out west and it's obvious that

1806
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:27,899
the ethics ordinance is a political tool, a weapon of sorts

1807
01:20:27,899 --> 01:20:27,899
.

1808
01:20:27,899 --> 01:20:30,380
And by the way, some of the complainants that have filed

1809
01:20:30,380 --> 01:20:33,000
the most recent complaints are also candidates for office

1810
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:34,899
and they filed against incumbents.

1811
01:20:34,899 --> 01:20:37,899
Doesn't mean there was no ethical issues there.

1812
01:20:37,899 --> 01:20:41,390
My review was limited to what does the ordinance have to

1813
01:20:41,390 --> 01:20:41,899
say.

1814
01:20:41,899 --> 01:20:44,960
And I know that's a question some of you all want to get to

1815
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:48,319
is if you're going to pursue a more ethical culture at City

1816
01:20:48,319 --> 01:20:48,899
of Denton,

1817
01:20:48,899 --> 01:20:52,529
does that mean every bit of behavior has to be tied to a

1818
01:20:52,529 --> 01:20:53,899
written standard?

1819
01:20:53,899 --> 01:20:56,840
Or can you have broader or general standards that folks can

1820
01:20:56,840 --> 01:21:00,619
be held accountable to even if you can't find a very

1821
01:21:00,619 --> 01:21:03,899
specific breach or specific violation?

1822
01:21:03,899 --> 01:21:06,899
And that's certainly something that we can talk about.

1823
01:21:06,899 --> 01:21:09,899
Because where we are is this slide.

1824
01:21:09,899 --> 01:21:12,210
And some of you may have been there when you walked in the

1825
01:21:12,210 --> 01:21:12,899
front door.

1826
01:21:12,899 --> 01:21:15,800
You were already here and you didn't need the rest of the

1827
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:17,899
material I was asked to present on.

1828
01:21:17,899 --> 01:21:18,899
But what are you going to do?

1829
01:21:18,899 --> 01:21:21,899
You are a charter review committee.

1830
01:21:21,899 --> 01:21:24,899
You looked at several aspects of the Home Rule Charter.

1831
01:21:24,899 --> 01:21:26,899
This is just one of them.

1832
01:21:26,899 --> 01:21:29,899
And you have a specific charge regarding this.

1833
01:21:29,899 --> 01:21:32,899
What are you going to do?

1834
01:21:32,899 --> 01:21:35,989
Some people out in the community might think number one is

1835
01:21:35,989 --> 01:21:36,899
non-option.

1836
01:21:36,899 --> 01:21:37,899
Nonsense.

1837
01:21:37,899 --> 01:21:40,409
I'm a lawyer, I'm here to tell you doing nothing is always

1838
01:21:40,409 --> 01:21:41,899
an option worth evaluating.

1839
01:21:41,899 --> 01:21:45,029
It's possible that you've learned all you need to learn and

1840
01:21:45,029 --> 01:21:46,899
you either think that state laws got this covered,

1841
01:21:46,899 --> 01:21:49,909
your charter's already got this covered, or fixing this is

1842
01:21:49,909 --> 01:21:53,039
beyond the scope of what you're going to do with your

1843
01:21:53,039 --> 01:21:53,899
charter.

1844
01:21:53,899 --> 01:21:57,890
So I would certainly say consider doing nothing and decide

1845
01:21:57,890 --> 01:22:00,899
if that's appropriate for Denton or not.

1846
01:22:00,899 --> 01:22:02,899
If you choose to do something, what is that?

1847
01:22:02,899 --> 01:22:05,899
You could recommend the city council do something else.

1848
01:22:05,899 --> 01:22:09,210
They could establish a broader policy or a more specific

1849
01:22:09,210 --> 01:22:09,899
policy.

1850
01:22:09,899 --> 01:22:13,439
It can be done by resolution, which is really a statement

1851
01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:14,899
of the council's will.

1852
01:22:14,899 --> 01:22:18,470
The one policy you have right now, I mentioned before in my

1853
01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:20,899
opinion, is fairly aspirational.

1854
01:22:20,899 --> 01:22:24,199
I know it's been likened to the Boy Scout oath and Boy

1855
01:22:24,199 --> 01:22:24,899
Scout law.

1856
01:22:24,899 --> 01:22:26,899
And it makes me laugh because when I do ethics training,

1857
01:22:26,899 --> 01:22:29,899
this is not my usual ethics training course.

1858
01:22:29,899 --> 01:22:33,189
I get into the Girl Scout law and the Boy Scout law because

1859
01:22:33,189 --> 01:22:36,899
I think there are lots of good things in there for people

1860
01:22:36,899 --> 01:22:38,899
who are trying to be good actors.

1861
01:22:38,899 --> 01:22:42,470
They're trying to behave themselves, conduct themselves in

1862
01:22:42,470 --> 01:22:45,899
a way that instills trust and confidence in the voters.

1863
01:22:45,899 --> 01:22:48,689
A lot of us learn those rules young in life and a lot of us

1864
01:22:48,689 --> 01:22:51,239
, big overgrown Eagle Scouts standing in front of you, we've

1865
01:22:51,239 --> 01:22:53,899
never stopped thinking about those rules.

1866
01:22:53,899 --> 01:22:56,760
We're a 10 year old Girl Scout and we go over those things

1867
01:22:56,760 --> 01:22:59,630
on a regular basis because if she forgets everything else,

1868
01:22:59,630 --> 01:23:01,899
she'll eventually remember those laws.

1869
01:23:01,899 --> 01:23:03,899
Well, yours has a lot in common with that.

1870
01:23:03,899 --> 01:23:05,899
Don't know how it was drafted.

1871
01:23:05,899 --> 01:23:10,369
I know the mayor who was there when it was adopted and

1872
01:23:10,369 --> 01:23:13,899
signed and the former city attorney.

1873
01:23:13,899 --> 01:23:14,899
Is that enough?

1874
01:23:14,899 --> 01:23:16,899
Do you need another resolution?

1875
01:23:16,899 --> 01:23:18,899
Do you need another policy?

1876
01:23:18,899 --> 01:23:19,899
Or is that not going far enough?

1877
01:23:19,899 --> 01:23:22,210
Is your recommendation going to be there needs to be an

1878
01:23:22,210 --> 01:23:22,899
ordinance.

1879
01:23:22,899 --> 01:23:25,899
An ordinance is actually law.

1880
01:23:25,899 --> 01:23:28,840
An ordinance can trigger all sorts of things, including,

1881
01:23:28,840 --> 01:23:33,390
you know, expending resources, fines, penalties, hiring of

1882
01:23:33,390 --> 01:23:36,899
people, firing of people.

1883
01:23:36,899 --> 01:23:40,899
It seems to me, and you all can argue with me in a moment,

1884
01:23:40,899 --> 01:23:44,470
beyond the scope of your charge for this group to write an

1885
01:23:44,470 --> 01:23:45,899
ethics ordinance.

1886
01:23:45,899 --> 01:23:48,449
But certainly you've had enough discussions and a lot of

1887
01:23:48,449 --> 01:23:51,050
you have done your own research to where you've gathered

1888
01:23:51,050 --> 01:23:53,899
enough information that's be good to go into an ordinance.

1889
01:23:53,899 --> 01:23:55,899
And maybe that's the next step.

1890
01:23:55,899 --> 01:23:58,850
But if you want an ethics ordinance like Plano or Fort

1891
01:23:58,850 --> 01:24:02,069
Worth or San Antonio or San Marcos or the other cities that

1892
01:24:02,069 --> 01:24:05,079
have them, that could be something that is done and a

1893
01:24:05,079 --> 01:24:06,899
process and procedures are set up for that.

1894
01:24:06,899 --> 01:24:09,899
That might be your recommendation.

1895
01:24:09,899 --> 01:24:14,489
Or the fourth one, which is what we're really charged with,

1896
01:24:14,489 --> 01:24:18,899
is the charter. What do we do about the charter?

1897
01:24:18,899 --> 01:24:22,899
What you have right now is basically state law.

1898
01:24:22,899 --> 01:24:25,899
The nepotism provision adds a little bit.

1899
01:24:25,899 --> 01:24:27,899
You can leave it there.

1900
01:24:27,899 --> 01:24:31,899
You can recommend it be repealed.

1901
01:24:31,899 --> 01:24:34,899
I hate saying repeal and replace, but that's where we are.

1902
01:24:34,899 --> 01:24:36,899
That's where we are.

1903
01:24:36,899 --> 01:24:39,760
Do you want to recommend that your charter language be repe

1904
01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:41,899
aled and replaced with something else?

1905
01:24:41,899 --> 01:24:44,899
Is it replaced with an ethics ordinance?

1906
01:24:44,899 --> 01:24:49,180
Is it replaced with a charter provision that requires an

1907
01:24:49,180 --> 01:24:50,899
ethics ordinance?

1908
01:24:50,899 --> 01:24:55,649
Because as a municipal lawyer, I tend to view a charter as

1909
01:24:55,649 --> 01:24:56,899
two things.

1910
01:24:56,899 --> 01:25:00,899
It establishes the basic framework for your government,

1911
01:25:00,899 --> 01:25:03,949
which is different than Dallas or Fort Worth or Plano or

1912
01:25:03,949 --> 01:25:04,899
Richardson.

1913
01:25:04,899 --> 01:25:06,899
It's your government, your charter.

1914
01:25:06,899 --> 01:25:09,659
The voters have given you these powers and they've held

1915
01:25:09,659 --> 01:25:11,899
back these other powers for themselves.

1916
01:25:11,899 --> 01:25:15,949
That framework for your government is the key part of a

1917
01:25:15,949 --> 01:25:16,899
charter.

1918
01:25:16,899 --> 01:25:20,899
Another part of a charter is limitations.

1919
01:25:20,899 --> 01:25:24,250
There may be things that state law allows the city of Dent

1920
01:25:24,250 --> 01:25:27,350
on to do, but the charter prevents the city of Denton from

1921
01:25:27,350 --> 01:25:27,899
doing.

1922
01:25:27,899 --> 01:25:31,600
The third part, which is probably most more common, is it's

1923
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:35,039
an enabling piece of legislation that was voted on by the

1924
01:25:35,039 --> 01:25:35,899
voters.

1925
01:25:35,899 --> 01:25:38,899
It specifically empowers the city to go and do this.

1926
01:25:38,899 --> 01:25:41,869
And as long as state law doesn't prohibit it, the city can

1927
01:25:41,869 --> 01:25:43,899
do what its charter allows it to do.

1928
01:25:43,899 --> 01:25:50,619
And 1,200 cities in Texas, 450 or so, or Home Rule, 450

1929
01:25:50,619 --> 01:25:52,899
different ways to do it.

1930
01:25:52,899 --> 01:25:54,890
I don't know what other charters you all have looked at in

1931
01:25:54,890 --> 01:25:55,899
other charter language,

1932
01:25:55,899 --> 01:25:58,939
but if you looked, you've probably seen a lot of different

1933
01:25:58,939 --> 01:26:00,899
approaches to the same problems.

1934
01:26:00,899 --> 01:26:05,119
One thought is if you feel like the mandate from the

1935
01:26:05,119 --> 01:26:07,899
council and what you're hearing from your fellow citizens

1936
01:26:07,899 --> 01:26:11,899
is such that you need to have more ethics rules in Denton

1937
01:26:11,899 --> 01:26:13,899
than you can consider.

1938
01:26:13,899 --> 01:26:18,069
Adding a line that says the city council may adopt an

1939
01:26:18,069 --> 01:26:19,899
ethics ordinance.

1940
01:26:19,899 --> 01:26:22,899
That's easy. It's one sentence.

1941
01:26:22,899 --> 01:26:27,270
You could do a similar sentence. The city council shall

1942
01:26:27,270 --> 01:26:28,899
adopt an ethics ordinance.

1943
01:26:28,899 --> 01:26:33,899
And what goes after that?

1944
01:26:33,899 --> 01:26:37,819
You can stop there. You can say, and appoint a charter

1945
01:26:37,819 --> 01:26:41,899
commission or just leave it to the ordinance to decide.

1946
01:26:41,899 --> 01:26:45,390
How much guidance do you think the voters of Denton want to

1947
01:26:45,390 --> 01:26:47,899
give the city council on what's next?

1948
01:26:47,899 --> 01:26:52,899
Now again, speaking as a lawyer, I like things to be clean.

1949
01:26:52,899 --> 01:26:54,899
So well, gosh, can we do a double?

1950
01:26:54,899 --> 01:26:58,229
A proposition to adopt language in the charter that

1951
01:26:58,229 --> 01:27:02,069
requires the city council to adopt an ethics ordinance and

1952
01:27:02,069 --> 01:27:04,899
repeal the two provisions you already have in the charter.

1953
01:27:04,899 --> 01:27:08,899
So that everything is in an ethics ordinance. That's clean.

1954
01:27:08,899 --> 01:27:10,899
It's neat. It's tidy.

1955
01:27:10,899 --> 01:27:13,460
Your ethics ordinance should put in what the penalties are,

1956
01:27:13,460 --> 01:27:15,899
the enforcement provisions. That's nice.

1957
01:27:15,899 --> 01:27:18,859
Now, will the voters do that? You can have a joint

1958
01:27:18,859 --> 01:27:20,899
proposition now. You used to not do that.

1959
01:27:20,899 --> 01:27:23,289
But now we can have joint propositions. Maybe that's

1960
01:27:23,289 --> 01:27:23,899
something to do.

1961
01:27:23,899 --> 01:27:27,000
Or maybe you leave the charter as is and the council just

1962
01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:28,899
adopts an ethics ordinance.

1963
01:27:28,899 --> 01:27:32,449
Because it's my opinion that nothing about your current

1964
01:27:32,449 --> 01:27:35,899
charter prohibits the council from adopting an ethics

1965
01:27:35,899 --> 01:27:36,899
ordinance.

1966
01:27:36,899 --> 01:27:38,899
I think legally they can still do so.

1967
01:27:38,899 --> 01:27:42,640
It's better, it's preferable, if you have language in the

1968
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:45,880
charter that gives them the power to adopt an ethics

1969
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:46,899
ordinance.

1970
01:27:46,899 --> 01:27:49,840
It kind of bolsters that power. But I don't necessarily

1971
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:54,899
think it's necessary. It's just more ideal.

1972
01:27:54,899 --> 01:27:57,899
Joe?

1973
01:27:57,899 --> 01:28:04,899
Allow or empower or they shall. Must.

1974
01:28:04,899 --> 01:28:08,529
That's one of the questions because they could adopt an

1975
01:28:08,529 --> 01:28:10,899
ordinance now if they so choose.

1976
01:28:10,899 --> 01:28:13,899
There's just been no movement.

1977
01:28:13,899 --> 01:28:20,899
And I, you know, the council's position on the charter

1978
01:28:20,899 --> 01:28:24,010
ethics provisions or the notion of having an ordinance,

1979
01:28:24,010 --> 01:28:25,899
that is not information that I'm privy to.

1980
01:28:25,899 --> 01:28:30,130
And I purposefully stayed away from that because I don't

1981
01:28:30,130 --> 01:28:34,539
really, I don't know their political desires, ideals or

1982
01:28:34,539 --> 01:28:35,899
limitations.

1983
01:28:35,899 --> 01:28:39,390
I'm hired by the city, but I'm here to help you guys right

1984
01:28:39,390 --> 01:28:39,899
now.

1985
01:28:39,899 --> 01:28:43,159
Oh no, you're hired. I want to make that clear. You work

1986
01:28:43,159 --> 01:28:43,899
for this committee.

1987
01:28:43,899 --> 01:28:44,899
Yes, sir.

1988
01:28:44,899 --> 01:28:48,670
You're being paid to the city apparatus, which you're

1989
01:28:48,670 --> 01:28:51,899
really working for the committee in total.

1990
01:28:51,899 --> 01:29:01,899
So and I want to rephrase my comment.

1991
01:29:01,899 --> 01:29:04,760
So I want to rephrase in the comments and say, Alan, is

1992
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:08,239
there anything in our charter right now, presently, that

1993
01:29:08,239 --> 01:29:12,579
prohibits the city council from writing an ethics ordinance

1994
01:29:12,579 --> 01:29:12,899
?

1995
01:29:12,899 --> 01:29:14,899
I don't think so.

1996
01:29:14,899 --> 01:29:19,329
And again, I have not talked to Ms. Burgess or anybody else

1997
01:29:19,329 --> 01:29:21,899
about prior interpretations.

1998
01:29:21,899 --> 01:29:26,899
So I'm just kind of going on my own here.

1999
01:29:26,899 --> 01:29:30,289
I think if I were someone that was opposed to that, I would

2000
01:29:30,289 --> 01:29:32,899
say, well, we need enabling legislation.

2001
01:29:32,899 --> 01:29:36,579
We need the voters through the charter to tell us that we

2002
01:29:36,579 --> 01:29:38,899
can adopt an ethics ordinance.

2003
01:29:38,899 --> 01:29:42,170
Or, again, lawyers doing what lawyers do, I could look at

2004
01:29:42,170 --> 01:29:45,010
it and say, the voters have already given you the two

2005
01:29:45,010 --> 01:29:46,899
ethics provisions they want.

2006
01:29:46,899 --> 01:29:50,430
And so don't do anything else. State law covers everything

2007
01:29:50,430 --> 01:29:50,899
else.

2008
01:29:50,899 --> 01:29:53,130
If the voters wanted you to have more ethics power, they

2009
01:29:53,130 --> 01:29:54,899
would have given you more ethics power.

2010
01:29:54,899 --> 01:29:58,010
To do anything else is to go beyond the charter, go beyond

2011
01:29:58,010 --> 01:30:00,899
the voters, possibly conflict with the charter.

2012
01:30:00,899 --> 01:30:07,039
And so that's why I say, my ideal as a municipal lawyer

2013
01:30:07,039 --> 01:30:11,420
would be to have at least a little line in there saying,

2014
01:30:11,420 --> 01:30:13,899
shall or must adopt an ordinance.

2015
01:30:13,899 --> 01:30:17,899
That gives the council, first of all, some political cover,

2016
01:30:17,899 --> 01:30:22,039
because you can't ignore the politics of these kinds of

2017
01:30:22,039 --> 01:30:22,899
issues.

2018
01:30:22,899 --> 01:30:26,899
My gosh.

2019
01:30:26,899 --> 01:30:30,199
So yeah, you can't ignore the politics of these kinds of

2020
01:30:30,199 --> 01:30:30,899
issues.

2021
01:30:30,899 --> 01:30:34,899
And also, you know, the council may want that push.

2022
01:30:34,899 --> 01:30:36,899
They may need that push.

2023
01:30:36,899 --> 01:30:40,899
Or maybe because I don't do politics, y'all can do that.

2024
01:30:40,899 --> 01:30:44,939
The voters need to have something on some future ballot

2025
01:30:44,939 --> 01:30:48,899
that they can click yes to that communicates the city hall

2026
01:30:48,899 --> 01:30:51,899
how the voters feel about ethics in city hall.

2027
01:30:51,899 --> 01:30:53,899
And so you want to give them that avenue.

2028
01:30:53,899 --> 01:30:58,310
Well, what I'm always going to recommend is that the

2029
01:30:58,310 --> 01:31:01,899
charter be as lean and mean as possible.

2030
01:31:01,899 --> 01:31:05,090
You know, whether I'm doing my adjunct professor work or I

2031
01:31:05,090 --> 01:31:08,109
'm being a lawyer or whatever, you look at the US

2032
01:31:08,109 --> 01:31:11,399
Constitution over here with the Bill of Rights and you look

2033
01:31:11,399 --> 01:31:14,899
at the Texas Constitution over here and you get nauseous.

2034
01:31:14,899 --> 01:31:16,899
Because there's something in it for everyone.

2035
01:31:16,899 --> 01:31:19,899
Every special interest group for a zillion years has shoved

2036
01:31:19,899 --> 01:31:22,600
something in there and the legislature is constantly

2037
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:25,479
putting before the voters who may or may not be informed to

2038
01:31:25,479 --> 01:31:26,899
amend our Constitution.

2039
01:31:26,899 --> 01:31:29,899
Well, your charter is kind of your Constitution.

2040
01:31:29,899 --> 01:31:31,899
So I'm always got a bias.

2041
01:31:31,899 --> 01:31:33,899
Less is better in the charter.

2042
01:31:33,899 --> 01:31:37,109
If the question were posed to me, should this group write

2043
01:31:37,109 --> 01:31:39,899
an ethics ordinance and then turn it into a proposition

2044
01:31:39,899 --> 01:31:43,939
that gets voted on, on a ballot to go into the charter, I

2045
01:31:43,939 --> 01:31:45,899
would urge you to be very cautious of doing that.

2046
01:31:45,899 --> 01:31:47,899
I think it's a hard thing to do.

2047
01:31:47,899 --> 01:31:49,899
It's a hard thing to draft.

2048
01:31:49,899 --> 01:31:52,899
It's a hard thing to communicate to the voters.

2049
01:31:52,899 --> 01:31:55,850
And it's a hard thing to administer because no matter how

2050
01:31:55,850 --> 01:31:58,670
well you write an ordinance, there's going to be some

2051
01:31:58,670 --> 01:31:59,899
problems with it.

2052
01:31:59,899 --> 01:32:02,409
And charters can only be amended, as you know, every two

2053
01:32:02,409 --> 01:32:02,899
years.

2054
01:32:02,899 --> 01:32:05,899
And they're difficult to do that.

2055
01:32:05,899 --> 01:32:09,880
And so, you know, what you choose to do is going to be to

2056
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:10,899
be on you.

2057
01:32:10,899 --> 01:32:14,859
And I'm also always going to caution folks to start off

2058
01:32:14,859 --> 01:32:18,899
fairly simple and get more complex as time goes on.

2059
01:32:18,899 --> 01:32:20,899
I mentioned Wimberley to you.

2060
01:32:20,899 --> 01:32:24,130
One of my final stories before we get into more question

2061
01:32:24,130 --> 01:32:27,560
and answers is when the newly created village of Wimberley

2062
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:30,109
was incorporated in 2000, one of the first things they did

2063
01:32:30,109 --> 01:32:31,899
was one, an ethics ordinance.

2064
01:32:31,899 --> 01:32:34,510
I thought that was ambitious for a town that still hadn't

2065
01:32:34,510 --> 01:32:37,270
gotten zoning or subdivisions or signs or the other things

2066
01:32:37,270 --> 01:32:38,899
that cities need to regulate.

2067
01:32:38,899 --> 01:32:40,899
I said, well, I've done a lot of work.

2068
01:32:40,899 --> 01:32:43,899
I've written papers for the City Attorney Association.

2069
01:32:43,899 --> 01:32:45,899
I've sampled ordinances across the state.

2070
01:32:45,899 --> 01:32:48,899
I've got kind of a package of samples.

2071
01:32:48,899 --> 01:32:51,020
Why don't I come up with a draft that I think fits a town

2072
01:32:51,020 --> 01:32:53,899
of 2000 people and then y'all can tweak it and modify it.

2073
01:32:53,899 --> 01:32:55,899
No, that's okay, lawyer boy.

2074
01:32:55,899 --> 01:32:56,899
We got this covered.

2075
01:32:56,899 --> 01:32:57,899
We got this covered.

2076
01:32:57,899 --> 01:33:00,899
We got the mayor's blue ribbon panel on ethics.

2077
01:33:00,899 --> 01:33:01,899
That's pretty impressive.

2078
01:33:01,899 --> 01:33:02,899
Sounds good.

2079
01:33:02,899 --> 01:33:06,630
Someone from the school district, a local reverend, a local

2080
01:33:06,630 --> 01:33:09,899
realtor, retired teacher, big property owner.

2081
01:33:09,899 --> 01:33:13,119
You have some very influential citizens sitting at the blue

2082
01:33:13,119 --> 01:33:16,340
ribbon panel and they wrote their own ethics ordinance with

2083
01:33:16,340 --> 01:33:17,899
no legal guidance at all.

2084
01:33:17,899 --> 01:33:20,899
Professor from Texas State University in southwest Texas.

2085
01:33:20,899 --> 01:33:22,899
Very smart people.

2086
01:33:22,899 --> 01:33:25,939
Then a week before it goes to council, they call a meeting

2087
01:33:25,939 --> 01:33:26,899
to approve it.

2088
01:33:26,899 --> 01:33:29,409
And the week before that, they give it to me to review just

2089
01:33:29,409 --> 01:33:30,899
for the lawyer's blessing.

2090
01:33:30,899 --> 01:33:33,300
And I know staff loves when that lawyer blessing thing

2091
01:33:33,300 --> 01:33:34,899
comes along at the last minute.

2092
01:33:34,899 --> 01:33:38,470
I look at this ordinance and I appear before their ethics

2093
01:33:38,470 --> 01:33:42,609
blue ribbon panel and as an illustration of what they've

2094
01:33:42,609 --> 01:33:42,899
done,

2095
01:33:42,899 --> 01:33:46,899
I pointed out how incredibly strict this ordinance was.

2096
01:33:46,899 --> 01:33:49,409
But under their proposed ethics ordinance, if they had a

2097
01:33:49,409 --> 01:33:53,279
janitor, a custodian at night who swept up and they were

2098
01:33:53,279 --> 01:33:53,899
from a vendor,

2099
01:33:53,899 --> 01:33:56,260
there's a contract custodial firm, I don't doubt any cities

2100
01:33:56,260 --> 01:33:57,899
have employees who sweep up anymore.

2101
01:33:57,899 --> 01:33:59,899
It's usually a vendor.

2102
01:33:59,899 --> 01:34:05,199
If that janitor at City Hall had a spouse and that spouse

2103
01:34:05,199 --> 01:34:09,439
had a mutual fund and in that mutual fund was some Dell

2104
01:34:09,439 --> 01:34:09,899
stock,

2105
01:34:09,899 --> 01:34:13,569
that ethics ordinance would prevent the village of Wimber

2106
01:34:13,569 --> 01:34:15,899
ley from ever buying a Dell computer.

2107
01:34:15,899 --> 01:34:19,250
No matter what the bid was, no matter what the technical

2108
01:34:19,250 --> 01:34:21,899
specs were, it would completely take that off.

2109
01:34:21,899 --> 01:34:25,310
And I can't see how a janitor's spouse's mutual fund has

2110
01:34:25,310 --> 01:34:28,899
any effect on transparency or integrity at City Hall.

2111
01:34:28,899 --> 01:34:32,039
And so I was cautioning them that they may want to ratchet

2112
01:34:32,039 --> 01:34:35,020
it back a little bit because I thought it was a little un

2113
01:34:35,020 --> 01:34:35,899
workable.

2114
01:34:35,899 --> 01:34:37,899
So the heading, it's a weekly newspaper out in Wimberley,

2115
01:34:37,899 --> 01:34:40,390
the heading front page of the Wimberley newspaper, the next

2116
01:34:40,390 --> 01:34:40,899
issue,

2117
01:34:40,899 --> 01:34:46,899
city attorney opposes ethics ordinance.

2118
01:34:46,899 --> 01:34:49,409
Did I mention I'm the former city attorney of Wimberley,

2119
01:34:49,409 --> 01:34:49,899
Texas?

2120
01:34:49,899 --> 01:34:52,840
It was a good run while it lasted, but it's hard to come

2121
01:34:52,840 --> 01:34:53,899
back from that.

2122
01:34:53,899 --> 01:34:58,899
And I think some of you are going to be in that position. I

2123
01:34:58,899 --> 01:34:58,899
think the city council is going to be in that position.

2124
01:34:58,899 --> 01:35:03,340
Politically, it's a very hard thing to do to oppose an

2125
01:35:03,340 --> 01:35:06,970
ethics ordinance, even if you're opposing it because of

2126
01:35:06,970 --> 01:35:08,899
some of the specificities, some of the nuances.

2127
01:35:08,899 --> 01:35:11,399
Because in my experience, I'm sure you've got a university

2128
01:35:11,399 --> 01:35:14,899
here, you've got a very engaged, educated electorate.

2129
01:35:14,899 --> 01:35:17,319
But often there are voters who don't do nuance and they don

2130
01:35:17,319 --> 01:35:18,899
't understand the finer points.

2131
01:35:18,899 --> 01:35:21,449
And so if you're going to draft an ethics ordinance, I

2132
01:35:21,449 --> 01:35:23,899
recommend that something separate and apart.

2133
01:35:23,899 --> 01:35:26,420
But you decide what to do about your charter. And I've

2134
01:35:26,420 --> 01:35:28,899
given you a couple of options there.

2135
01:35:28,899 --> 01:35:32,569
So that's all the prepared materials. I'm yours for

2136
01:35:32,569 --> 01:35:33,899
question and answers.

2137
01:35:33,899 --> 01:35:36,899
>> Let's open up for some hard questions.

2138
01:35:36,899 --> 01:35:40,899
>> No, that could be hard. Softballs are okay, too.

2139
01:35:40,899 --> 01:35:50,899
>> To the extent that you're aware, is the North Dakota

2140
01:35:50,899 --> 01:35:57,899
legislature unethical budget people?

2141
01:35:57,899 --> 01:36:03,289
Or was there something about the voters' ethical law voted

2142
01:36:03,289 --> 01:36:07,899
in that was untenable in terms of legislative?

2143
01:36:07,899 --> 01:36:11,140
>> Sorry, I have to plead ignorance on that one. I'm just

2144
01:36:11,140 --> 01:36:11,899
not familiar with it.

2145
01:36:11,899 --> 01:36:13,899
>> You're aware of what happened, right?

2146
01:36:13,899 --> 01:36:15,899
>> No, sir, I missed that.

2147
01:36:15,899 --> 01:36:22,630
>> Okay. The people of North Dakota voted the ethics law

2148
01:36:22,630 --> 01:36:23,899
into effect.

2149
01:36:23,899 --> 01:36:31,289
And the legislature is apparently calling it an emergency

2150
01:36:31,289 --> 01:36:35,899
to discount it or to toss it aside.

2151
01:36:35,899 --> 01:36:38,220
>> Well, we know all about initiative and referendum here

2152
01:36:38,220 --> 01:36:40,899
in the Hittin, so we know how that goes.

2153
01:36:40,899 --> 01:36:44,899
When we have voters give us laws.

2154
01:36:44,899 --> 01:36:46,899
Sure, David, did you have something?

2155
01:36:46,899 --> 01:36:50,670
>> Oh, yes. Two questions. They're actually kind of related

2156
01:36:50,670 --> 01:36:50,899
.

2157
01:36:50,899 --> 01:36:53,409
You made the comment that I was kind of intrigued by your

2158
01:36:53,409 --> 01:36:57,399
comment that as there's a decline in public trust, there's

2159
01:36:57,399 --> 01:36:58,899
a rise in ethics ordinances.

2160
01:36:58,899 --> 01:37:03,899
Now, those two metrics are either related or they're not.

2161
01:37:03,899 --> 01:37:07,369
If they are related, then that would kind of suggest that

2162
01:37:07,369 --> 01:37:10,899
ethics ordinances in general are kind of irrelevant.

2163
01:37:10,899 --> 01:37:13,989
So the second part of that is we all know it's kind of a

2164
01:37:13,989 --> 01:37:17,899
cliche that ethics ordinances do not create ethical people,

2165
01:37:17,899 --> 01:37:20,899
but they may influence an ethical culture.

2166
01:37:20,899 --> 01:37:23,920
In your experience, does at least -- do ethics ordinances

2167
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:26,550
at least kind of up the ante a little bit ethically in

2168
01:37:26,550 --> 01:37:27,899
those communities?

2169
01:37:27,899 --> 01:37:31,899
Even if they don't, they're not perfect. I get that.

2170
01:37:31,899 --> 01:37:35,180
But does it improve the ethical climate or the culture in

2171
01:37:35,180 --> 01:37:38,479
some way in these communities that have already enacted

2172
01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:40,899
some of these, more comprehensive?

2173
01:37:40,899 --> 01:37:44,899
>> I think so. And I'm not anti-ethics ordinance.

2174
01:37:44,899 --> 01:37:48,079
I just don't know that the public's distrust is going to be

2175
01:37:48,079 --> 01:37:49,899
remedied by adopting rules.

2176
01:37:49,899 --> 01:37:53,529
It's possible that adopting rules will in fact increase

2177
01:37:53,529 --> 01:37:56,850
ethical behavior, but you don't see that reflected in

2178
01:37:56,850 --> 01:37:57,899
public trust.

2179
01:37:57,899 --> 01:38:01,899
A lot of folks theorize -- I mentioned the federal thing.

2180
01:38:01,899 --> 01:38:05,930
A lot of folks theorize that so many citizens are so upset

2181
01:38:05,930 --> 01:38:09,899
at the federal government that we feel that at City Hall

2182
01:38:09,899 --> 01:38:12,640
because they can't effectuate the federal government very

2183
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:12,899
much.

2184
01:38:12,899 --> 01:38:14,550
But they know who their mayor is, their council member, and

2185
01:38:14,550 --> 01:38:15,899
they actually know who the city manager is.

2186
01:38:15,899 --> 01:38:18,899
And so they take it out on those of us local.

2187
01:38:18,899 --> 01:38:21,689
I know in my own experience, anecdotally, I've had to sit

2188
01:38:21,689 --> 01:38:24,409
through council meetings where during a citizen comment

2189
01:38:24,409 --> 01:38:26,899
period, we're getting griped at by citizens.

2190
01:38:26,899 --> 01:38:29,409
And what they're really griping at is not a municipal issue

2191
01:38:29,409 --> 01:38:29,899
at all.

2192
01:38:29,899 --> 01:38:31,899
It's a state or a federal issue.

2193
01:38:31,899 --> 01:38:34,890
But they can't find someone in Austin to gripe at, but they

2194
01:38:34,890 --> 01:38:37,909
know city council meets Wednesday nights at 7 or Tuesday

2195
01:38:37,909 --> 01:38:38,899
nights at 6.

2196
01:38:38,899 --> 01:38:41,609
And so even though I don't think there's any study that

2197
01:38:41,609 --> 01:38:44,899
shows that correlation between more rules means more trust,

2198
01:38:44,899 --> 01:38:46,899
maybe we get more behavior.

2199
01:38:46,899 --> 01:38:48,899
I mean, the whole thing goes back.

2200
01:38:48,899 --> 01:38:53,640
People trace the increase nationally in ethics rules to

2201
01:38:53,640 --> 01:38:54,899
Watergate.

2202
01:38:54,899 --> 01:38:58,409
And in Texas, they trace ethics rules on open government

2203
01:38:58,409 --> 01:39:01,899
rules to the Sharpstown Bank scandal, which again was state

2204
01:39:01,899 --> 01:39:05,899
legislators, not city officials, not school board trustees.

2205
01:39:05,899 --> 01:39:08,289
And so more and more rules get adopted, but yet public

2206
01:39:08,289 --> 01:39:09,899
opinion polls keep going down.

2207
01:39:09,899 --> 01:39:12,899
I think having a few standards is a good idea.

2208
01:39:12,899 --> 01:39:16,239
I'm very much in favor of professional ethics standards for

2209
01:39:16,239 --> 01:39:18,899
lawyers, planners, and everybody else.

2210
01:39:18,899 --> 01:39:23,060
And then of course, that five-pronged approach to trying to

2211
01:39:23,060 --> 01:39:27,329
get City Hall to be a place where folks trust at some point

2212
01:39:27,329 --> 01:39:29,899
that I may not know what's going on at City Hall,

2213
01:39:29,899 --> 01:39:32,560
but I trust that they're doing their best and they're not

2214
01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:35,149
trying to enrich themselves so I can worry about my kids

2215
01:39:35,149 --> 01:39:36,899
soccer game or something else.

2216
01:39:36,899 --> 01:39:40,630
To me, that's the goal we should be working for if we

2217
01:39:40,630 --> 01:39:42,899
accept a public position.

2218
01:39:42,899 --> 01:39:47,189
If I could ask one more real quick, unless there's

2219
01:39:47,189 --> 01:39:50,399
something else. Of all of the state penal and conflict stat

2220
01:39:50,399 --> 01:39:53,409
utes that you mentioned that are still there and may still

2221
01:39:53,409 --> 01:39:54,899
be enough to protect us,

2222
01:39:54,899 --> 01:39:58,109
we all know that local district attorneys are never

2223
01:39:58,109 --> 01:39:59,899
politically motivated.

2224
01:39:59,899 --> 01:40:02,109
But you mentioned the Texas Rangers a couple of times. How

2225
01:40:02,109 --> 01:40:05,539
does that work in terms of investigation or prosecution of

2226
01:40:05,539 --> 01:40:07,899
any of these flakers, something flakers?

2227
01:40:07,899 --> 01:40:11,399
Well, usually when it's a public official, which could be

2228
01:40:11,399 --> 01:40:13,899
an elected, it could be a city planner.

2229
01:40:13,899 --> 01:40:18,090
It's usually going to be someone goes to complain to the DA

2230
01:40:18,090 --> 01:40:21,800
's office and the DA's office will have the Texas Rangers

2231
01:40:21,800 --> 01:40:22,899
investigate.

2232
01:40:22,899 --> 01:40:27,289
Some district attorneys have their own staff investigators

2233
01:40:27,289 --> 01:40:28,899
that do it for them.

2234
01:40:28,899 --> 01:40:31,689
Usually they're police officers that are working as the DA

2235
01:40:31,689 --> 01:40:34,899
's investigator, but some counties don't have that resource.

2236
01:40:34,899 --> 01:40:37,899
For elected officials, it's quite often the Texas Rangers.

2237
01:40:37,899 --> 01:40:41,590
There's been times where I have been ordered by a majority

2238
01:40:41,590 --> 01:40:45,850
of the city council to take my file and go and drop it on

2239
01:40:45,850 --> 01:40:48,899
the desk of a district attorney's office because a former

2240
01:40:48,899 --> 01:40:54,409
city council member stole money, theft of service and

2241
01:40:54,409 --> 01:40:56,899
utilities, something like that.

2242
01:40:56,899 --> 01:41:04,039
Most DA's, most, I've actually had Texas Rangers tell me to

2243
01:41:04,039 --> 01:41:07,909
my face that when it comes to politically charged high

2244
01:41:07,909 --> 01:41:09,899
profile elected officials,

2245
01:41:09,899 --> 01:41:13,560
they will not do a full investigation unless they first get

2246
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:17,270
from the district attorney a letter that says, if you bring

2247
01:41:17,270 --> 01:41:19,899
me back evidence, I will prosecute.

2248
01:41:19,899 --> 01:41:22,640
Because the Texas Rangers have gotten tired of getting

2249
01:41:22,640 --> 01:41:25,609
caught in political fights between local officials and DA's

2250
01:41:25,609 --> 01:41:25,899
.

2251
01:41:25,899 --> 01:41:28,789
And so you're right. I mean, that's an ongoing issue in

2252
01:41:28,789 --> 01:41:32,289
Texas right now. We used to have the public integrity unit

2253
01:41:32,289 --> 01:41:34,899
in Austin, based in Travis County, Texas.

2254
01:41:34,899 --> 01:41:38,010
It was accused of being too partisan in its politics. So

2255
01:41:38,010 --> 01:41:40,560
now the legislature has fractured that out back to the

2256
01:41:40,560 --> 01:41:43,600
various district attorneys across the state, unless it's

2257
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:44,899
Austin officials.

2258
01:41:44,899 --> 01:41:47,899
So it's pretty much discretionary then with the DA, I guess

2259
01:41:47,899 --> 01:41:47,899
.

2260
01:41:47,899 --> 01:41:50,439
A lot of discretion rests with the district attorney's

2261
01:41:50,439 --> 01:41:53,899
office for these offenses. Yes, sir.

2262
01:41:53,899 --> 01:41:57,409
Open meetings, open records, it sometimes is the county

2263
01:41:57,409 --> 01:42:00,939
attorney if that particular county attorney has criminal

2264
01:42:00,939 --> 01:42:01,899
authority.

2265
01:42:01,899 --> 01:42:03,899
We'll get Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Eaton.

2266
01:42:03,899 --> 01:42:07,960
It seems to me the idea of the level of trust and the

2267
01:42:07,960 --> 01:42:12,270
number of ethics rules and so forth, to me, can be

2268
01:42:12,270 --> 01:42:15,899
explained very simply, whatever you see on the one hand.

2269
01:42:15,899 --> 01:42:20,170
Gifts, awards, and Mentos, okay, if under $50. And then you

2270
01:42:20,170 --> 01:42:23,659
give the example of taking a limo to AT&T Stadium where the

2271
01:42:23,659 --> 01:42:25,899
tickets are more than $50.

2272
01:42:25,899 --> 01:42:29,649
The limo ride is more than $50. The meals are more than $50

2273
01:42:29,649 --> 01:42:33,029
. Everything about the whole trip individually is worth more

2274
01:42:33,029 --> 01:42:35,899
than $50, yet they could do it.

2275
01:42:35,899 --> 01:42:38,340
And I think when the public sees those kinds of things,

2276
01:42:38,340 --> 01:42:40,920
they're saying, so what's the point of having these rules

2277
01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:43,359
if you can break them, if you can drive the limo through

2278
01:42:43,359 --> 01:42:43,899
them?

2279
01:42:43,899 --> 01:42:48,460
And I think that's really, I think what the general public

2280
01:42:48,460 --> 01:42:53,199
sees is, I mean, locally we've seen that firsthand, and we

2281
01:42:53,199 --> 01:42:55,899
're thinking, well, why wasn't anything done?

2282
01:42:55,899 --> 01:43:00,050
And, you know, like from the real estate aspect and other

2283
01:43:00,050 --> 01:43:03,960
things. So it's just how do you get those two together

2284
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:06,899
where you don't drive the limo through it,

2285
01:43:06,899 --> 01:43:10,840
and I guess you get to, like you said, where the janitor's

2286
01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:13,899
wife's mutual fund thing, I don't know.

2287
01:43:13,899 --> 01:43:18,029
There's gotta be a happy medium somewhere where those can

2288
01:43:18,029 --> 01:43:19,899
work in the same world.

2289
01:43:19,899 --> 01:43:23,399
Well, you know, I can tell you that I have served cities

2290
01:43:23,399 --> 01:43:29,039
where city councils, granted these are smaller cities, they

2291
01:43:29,039 --> 01:43:29,899
're not as large as Denton,

2292
01:43:29,899 --> 01:43:33,989
where city councils have put it on an agenda, convened a

2293
01:43:33,989 --> 01:43:39,369
meeting, and publicly out in the open reprimanded a mayor

2294
01:43:39,369 --> 01:43:44,510
or city council member for public conduct that the city

2295
01:43:44,510 --> 01:43:47,899
council deemed to be improper and inappropriate.

2296
01:43:47,899 --> 01:43:51,600
And there was no ethics ordinance. There was no written

2297
01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:56,000
local rule that said, thou shalt not be a jerk to city

2298
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:56,899
staff.

2299
01:43:56,899 --> 01:44:00,710
But after this mayor had come in and yelled and hollered

2300
01:44:00,710 --> 01:44:04,899
and threatened and been a bully to so many city officials,

2301
01:44:04,899 --> 01:44:08,069
the city council decided we can't operate our business with

2302
01:44:08,069 --> 01:44:08,899
this thing going on.

2303
01:44:08,899 --> 01:44:12,460
We don't need a written rule. We're going to give you the

2304
01:44:12,460 --> 01:44:15,689
public shame on you in the form of a written resolution

2305
01:44:15,689 --> 01:44:16,899
that's passed.

2306
01:44:16,899 --> 01:44:19,170
And I've seen that in multiple cities with no ethics

2307
01:44:19,170 --> 01:44:19,899
ordinance.

2308
01:44:19,899 --> 01:44:20,899
They just knew it.

2309
01:44:20,899 --> 01:44:22,899
It doesn't even have to be a charter provision.

2310
01:44:22,899 --> 01:44:25,899
No, these are towns too small to have a city charter.

2311
01:44:25,899 --> 01:44:28,899
I think that it is fully within their authority to do so.

2312
01:44:28,899 --> 01:44:32,899
And I think the city of Denton can do that.

2313
01:44:32,899 --> 01:44:34,899
In part, it's politics.

2314
01:44:34,899 --> 01:44:40,899
In part, it's a public statement of values and priorities

2315
01:44:40,899 --> 01:44:45,899
and characteristics we want to see in our public servants.

2316
01:44:45,899 --> 01:44:48,760
But then I have some folks who said, well, gosh, if I can't

2317
01:44:48,760 --> 01:44:51,899
find it in writing, then I can do it.

2318
01:44:51,899 --> 01:44:53,899
And who are you to accuse me of it?

2319
01:44:53,899 --> 01:44:56,899
So, okay, well, then they get lawyers to write rules.

2320
01:44:56,899 --> 01:45:00,289
And now, okay, well, they got off on a technicality because

2321
01:45:00,289 --> 01:45:02,899
some lawyer found an exception to the rule.

2322
01:45:02,899 --> 01:45:05,899
Well, you know, what are they accused of having done?

2323
01:45:05,899 --> 01:45:09,189
Oh, they're accused of having disclosed something to a

2324
01:45:09,189 --> 01:45:09,899
citizen.

2325
01:45:09,899 --> 01:45:10,899
Well, was it confidential?

2326
01:45:10,899 --> 01:45:11,899
No, but it was private.

2327
01:45:11,899 --> 01:45:12,899
Okay, I don't know what private means.

2328
01:45:12,899 --> 01:45:16,899
I don't know what confidential means.

2329
01:45:16,899 --> 01:45:19,199
I'm perfectly fine with -- in fact, I think if you want to

2330
01:45:19,199 --> 01:45:21,659
have a more ethical organization, you've got to have more

2331
01:45:21,659 --> 01:45:22,899
public conversations about it.

2332
01:45:22,899 --> 01:45:25,899
Must they all be accusatory or judgmental?

2333
01:45:25,899 --> 01:45:27,899
No.

2334
01:45:27,899 --> 01:45:29,899
But you need to have more conversations about it.

2335
01:45:29,899 --> 01:45:33,939
You know, back when I interned for the City of Lubbock, I

2336
01:45:33,939 --> 01:45:35,899
remember I interned in the trash department.

2337
01:45:35,899 --> 01:45:38,489
It was the best job I've ever had in my life, solid waste

2338
01:45:38,489 --> 01:45:39,899
management for Lubbock.

2339
01:45:39,899 --> 01:45:42,899
And they've got their quarterly safety meetings.

2340
01:45:42,899 --> 01:45:44,199
Well, they talk about safety because back then they had

2341
01:45:44,199 --> 01:45:46,399
their own trash trucks, people hanging off the back of

2342
01:45:46,399 --> 01:45:47,899
trucks, ran a landfill.

2343
01:45:47,899 --> 01:45:48,899
That was a big deal.

2344
01:45:48,899 --> 01:45:51,060
That was an excuse to bring in everybody, park the trucks

2345
01:45:51,060 --> 01:45:51,899
for a little while, coffee,

2346
01:45:51,899 --> 01:45:53,899
donuts and orange juice.

2347
01:45:53,899 --> 01:45:56,960
And what they really did was talk about their values as a

2348
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:57,899
department.

2349
01:45:57,899 --> 01:46:01,199
And back then, they hired an outside company to come into a

2350
01:46:01,199 --> 01:46:01,899
survey.

2351
01:46:01,899 --> 01:46:05,329
The highest job satisfaction of any department in the City

2352
01:46:05,329 --> 01:46:07,899
of Lubbock was a solid waste department.

2353
01:46:07,899 --> 01:46:11,189
The folks not only were the most ethnically diverse, lowest

2354
01:46:11,189 --> 01:46:15,149
educated, lowest paid, and probably most at risk other than

2355
01:46:15,149 --> 01:46:15,899
utilities.

2356
01:46:15,899 --> 01:46:16,899
But they had a lot of satisfaction.

2357
01:46:16,899 --> 01:46:18,899
You talk about values.

2358
01:46:18,899 --> 01:46:21,899
Well, that stuck with me to where I'm coaching cities.

2359
01:46:21,899 --> 01:46:23,899
Where's your quarterly ethics meeting?

2360
01:46:23,899 --> 01:46:26,930
Where's your twice a year meeting to get coffee and donuts

2361
01:46:26,930 --> 01:46:30,899
and orange juice and talk about your values as a department

2362
01:46:30,899 --> 01:46:33,899
and what instills the public's trust in you?

2363
01:46:33,899 --> 01:46:36,149
So they don't have to see everything that's on your desk or

2364
01:46:36,149 --> 01:46:36,899
in your email.

2365
01:46:36,899 --> 01:46:39,899
They believe you're out there working for them.

2366
01:46:39,899 --> 01:46:42,899
Well, very few of my clients ever had those conversations.

2367
01:46:42,899 --> 01:46:46,100
We've talked about the City of San Antonio, which again, it

2368
01:46:46,100 --> 01:46:47,899
's got a huge infrastructure.

2369
01:46:47,899 --> 01:46:50,899
I don't know what they spend on their ethics ordinance.

2370
01:46:50,899 --> 01:46:52,899
But they have routine training.

2371
01:46:52,899 --> 01:46:54,899
Every new employee has ethics training.

2372
01:46:54,899 --> 01:46:56,899
Every new council member has ethics training.

2373
01:46:56,899 --> 01:46:58,899
Periodically, they have to go through ethics training.

2374
01:46:58,899 --> 01:47:02,100
Is it going to be the online DVD or is it going to be in

2375
01:47:02,100 --> 01:47:02,899
person?

2376
01:47:02,899 --> 01:47:06,479
Each lawyer that covers each department head is trained in

2377
01:47:06,479 --> 01:47:09,449
the ethics ordinance and is that department's ethics

2378
01:47:09,449 --> 01:47:14,329
advisor and answers, you know, behind the scenes ethics

2379
01:47:14,329 --> 01:47:14,899
questions.

2380
01:47:14,899 --> 01:47:15,899
Can we do that?

2381
01:47:15,899 --> 01:47:16,899
Should we do that?

2382
01:47:16,899 --> 01:47:19,399
So I think a lot of ethics complaints don't rise to the

2383
01:47:19,399 --> 01:47:22,600
level of a complaint anymore because they've put together

2384
01:47:22,600 --> 01:47:25,899
this infrastructure to deal with this issue in San Antonio.

2385
01:47:25,899 --> 01:47:26,899
But it's broad.

2386
01:47:26,899 --> 01:47:27,899
It's comprehensive.

2387
01:47:27,899 --> 01:47:30,899
It's undergone lots of changes and it's very expensive.

2388
01:47:30,899 --> 01:47:35,250
And some citizens are still not pleased with it and want to

2389
01:47:35,250 --> 01:47:37,899
amend the charter to change it.

2390
01:47:37,899 --> 01:47:39,899
Mr. Eaton. Yes, sir.

2391
01:47:39,899 --> 01:47:43,180
We have in place a policy right now and I guess the

2392
01:47:43,180 --> 01:47:47,050
question I have is who gets the policy applied to because

2393
01:47:47,050 --> 01:47:51,710
it says elected officials and appointed officials, boards

2394
01:47:51,710 --> 01:47:53,899
and commissioners.

2395
01:47:53,899 --> 01:47:56,659
And then it says they must adhere to the following Texas

2396
01:47:56,659 --> 01:47:58,899
statutes and they give all the statutes.

2397
01:47:58,899 --> 01:48:05,550
So my first question is, in your opinion, who are elected

2398
01:48:05,550 --> 01:48:08,899
and appointed officials?

2399
01:48:08,899 --> 01:48:12,090
So the aspirational part talks about cities, boards and

2400
01:48:12,090 --> 01:48:15,420
commissions are asked to subscribe to Texas statutes, the

2401
01:48:15,420 --> 01:48:16,899
charter, the rules.

2402
01:48:16,899 --> 01:48:22,899
I'm looking at the most recent version.

2403
01:48:22,899 --> 01:48:25,250
So what I'm looking at, I'm sorry, it says elected city

2404
01:48:25,250 --> 01:48:27,649
council members as well as appointed members of cities,

2405
01:48:27,649 --> 01:48:28,899
boards and commissions.

2406
01:48:28,899 --> 01:48:31,779
See, and then on page two, it has something different at

2407
01:48:31,779 --> 01:48:32,899
the bottom of page two.

2408
01:48:32,899 --> 01:48:35,159
Elected officials, appointed officials, boards and

2409
01:48:35,159 --> 01:48:35,899
commissions.

2410
01:48:35,899 --> 01:48:39,399
It seems that there's two separate possibly three separate

2411
01:48:39,399 --> 01:48:47,899
classes there.

2412
01:48:47,899 --> 01:48:49,899
Yeah.

2413
01:48:49,899 --> 01:48:53,420
I know. Normally I think of appointed officials as city

2414
01:48:53,420 --> 01:48:56,430
council members who are appointed to fill a vacancy if you

2415
01:48:56,430 --> 01:48:57,899
're allowed to do that.

2416
01:48:57,899 --> 01:49:01,899
And people that are appointed to boards and commissions.

2417
01:49:01,899 --> 01:49:04,970
Yes, people are pointed to staff department head levels,

2418
01:49:04,970 --> 01:49:07,789
but I normally don't interpret that to mean that I don't

2419
01:49:07,789 --> 01:49:09,899
know how this has been interpreted.

2420
01:49:09,899 --> 01:49:12,899
I don't know if we have any guidance on that.

2421
01:49:12,899 --> 01:49:16,710
My question is, because this is policy, how does that go

2422
01:49:16,710 --> 01:49:23,899
back to the charter, which says 171 does 171 apply to

2423
01:49:23,899 --> 01:49:26,899
people that are on boards and commissions?

2424
01:49:26,899 --> 01:49:31,170
What applies to the city council and it applies to boards

2425
01:49:31,170 --> 01:49:35,090
and commissions that I think, you know, exercise sovereign

2426
01:49:35,090 --> 01:49:35,899
functions.

2427
01:49:35,899 --> 01:49:39,899
So the best example is planning and zoning commission.

2428
01:49:39,899 --> 01:49:42,899
Whether or not other commissions are subject to it.

2429
01:49:42,899 --> 01:49:46,029
I'd have to look at the commission's membership and what

2430
01:49:46,029 --> 01:49:47,899
they do to make that decision.

2431
01:49:47,899 --> 01:49:51,899
171 does not apply to employees under state law.

2432
01:49:51,899 --> 01:49:54,899
It does not apply to independent contractors.

2433
01:49:54,899 --> 01:49:59,390
So that I guess the final piece is the enforcement aspect

2434
01:49:59,390 --> 01:50:03,899
of this is actually created by ordinance.

2435
01:50:03,899 --> 01:50:10,859
Does it make sense to have an ordinance to carry out a

2436
01:50:10,859 --> 01:50:11,899
policy?

2437
01:50:11,899 --> 01:50:15,899
The question of having an ordinance to carry out a policy,

2438
01:50:15,899 --> 01:50:18,449
you know, you're kind of, you're kind of getting at the

2439
01:50:18,449 --> 01:50:19,899
heart of of municipal law.

2440
01:50:19,899 --> 01:50:23,770
And I think all of us wrestle with in reality, city

2441
01:50:23,770 --> 01:50:26,899
councils are allowed to take action.

2442
01:50:26,899 --> 01:50:32,399
One of two ways they can adopt a resolution, which is

2443
01:50:32,399 --> 01:50:35,729
really a statement of their collective will is how it's

2444
01:50:35,729 --> 01:50:41,960
best described, or they can adopt an ordinance, which is

2445
01:50:41,960 --> 01:50:42,899
law.

2446
01:50:42,899 --> 01:50:45,489
If you look at state statutes, some of them are

2447
01:50:45,489 --> 01:50:48,369
inconsistent about whether an action can be done by

2448
01:50:48,369 --> 01:50:51,739
ordinance resolution, or sometimes it says in the state law

2449
01:50:51,739 --> 01:50:54,039
, you can do it by ordinance or resolution as though they're

2450
01:50:54,039 --> 01:50:54,899
interchangeable.

2451
01:50:54,899 --> 01:50:57,899
And I don't think they're interchangeable.

2452
01:50:57,899 --> 01:50:59,899
I think you could adopt policies by either one.

2453
01:50:59,899 --> 01:51:03,590
I think a policy can be adopted by resolution or by

2454
01:51:03,590 --> 01:51:06,899
ordinance and a policy can be aspirational.

2455
01:51:06,899 --> 01:51:10,390
Things you hope people will be like and they hope they will

2456
01:51:10,390 --> 01:51:14,039
do things, but there's no real punishment because there's

2457
01:51:14,039 --> 01:51:16,899
no bright line test no no clear standard.

2458
01:51:16,899 --> 01:51:20,899
Or you can adopt a policy by ordinance.

2459
01:51:20,899 --> 01:51:23,510
And what I would always going to recommend to a client is

2460
01:51:23,510 --> 01:51:26,430
if you're adopting something that you're putting some teeth

2461
01:51:26,430 --> 01:51:30,369
into, it's going to cost somebody a position or cost them

2462
01:51:30,369 --> 01:51:34,250
money or cost them a reprimand, then I think it should be

2463
01:51:34,250 --> 01:51:35,899
done by ordinance.

2464
01:51:35,899 --> 01:51:38,899
That's just my preference as a municipal lawyer.

2465
01:51:38,899 --> 01:51:41,899
A policy can be adopted either way.

2466
01:51:41,899 --> 01:51:45,899
Is it common to have a policy by ordinance?

2467
01:51:45,899 --> 01:51:49,899
Oh, I don't know what's common in that regard.

2468
01:51:49,899 --> 01:51:53,899
I would I would recommend you roll them into one thing.

2469
01:51:53,899 --> 01:51:57,000
And you know some ordinances, I mean, the barking dog

2470
01:51:57,000 --> 01:51:59,930
ordinance could have some policy statements at the

2471
01:51:59,930 --> 01:52:03,270
beginning as to why controlling barking dogs is important

2472
01:52:03,270 --> 01:52:06,600
and why quiet neighborhoods and peace and tranquility and

2473
01:52:06,600 --> 01:52:08,899
neighbors being good neighbors.

2474
01:52:08,899 --> 01:52:10,899
And then you get to the meat of it.

2475
01:52:10,899 --> 01:52:13,199
If your dog's barking after these hours, here's how you do

2476
01:52:13,199 --> 01:52:13,899
a complaint.

2477
01:52:13,899 --> 01:52:15,899
Here's how you do code enforcement.

2478
01:52:15,899 --> 01:52:17,899
Here's how you do punishment.

2479
01:52:17,899 --> 01:52:20,899
You go to something more important like ethical behavior.

2480
01:52:20,899 --> 01:52:23,989
You could have an ordinance that takes care of all the

2481
01:52:23,989 --> 01:52:27,350
policy stuff up front and then gives you some actual rules

2482
01:52:27,350 --> 01:52:28,899
cannot accept a gift.

2483
01:52:28,899 --> 01:52:33,869
If it's more than $25 cannot accept, you know, sporting

2484
01:52:33,869 --> 01:52:34,899
tickets.

2485
01:52:34,899 --> 01:52:37,130
If the value is over whatever and then here's the

2486
01:52:37,130 --> 01:52:37,899
punishment.

2487
01:52:37,899 --> 01:52:42,060
If you do so, part of the difficulty is, especially with

2488
01:52:42,060 --> 01:52:45,850
big complex organizations is you or your ethics review

2489
01:52:45,850 --> 01:52:49,899
commission might think something is an ethical issue.

2490
01:52:49,899 --> 01:52:52,760
But your city manager might think it's a human human

2491
01:52:52,760 --> 01:52:53,899
resources issue.

2492
01:52:53,899 --> 01:52:57,260
And they want to deal with it because they're the ultimate

2493
01:52:57,260 --> 01:52:58,899
boss of these employees.

2494
01:52:58,899 --> 01:53:00,899
And I want to deal with it as an employment matter.

2495
01:53:00,899 --> 01:53:03,859
But somebody over here has jurisdiction because you created

2496
01:53:03,859 --> 01:53:06,899
an ethics ordinance that gives that person jurisdiction.

2497
01:53:06,899 --> 01:53:09,760
And that's why sometimes you got to be be careful what

2498
01:53:09,760 --> 01:53:12,880
activities are dealt by whom I've seen ethics ordinances

2499
01:53:12,880 --> 01:53:16,079
where if there's a violation of this ethics ordinance by an

2500
01:53:16,079 --> 01:53:18,899
employee, it's referred to HR.

2501
01:53:18,899 --> 01:53:20,899
And now it's in the city manager's world.

2502
01:53:20,899 --> 01:53:23,989
If it's a violation by a board commission member or council

2503
01:53:23,989 --> 01:53:26,899
member, it goes to the ethics review commission.

2504
01:53:26,899 --> 01:53:31,810
That's one way they dealt with that that tension between

2505
01:53:31,810 --> 01:53:34,899
internal and external matters.

2506
01:53:34,899 --> 01:53:36,899
I think ethics policies are fine.

2507
01:53:36,899 --> 01:53:40,140
I think what they've you've adopted here, the council's

2508
01:53:40,140 --> 01:53:41,899
adopted here is just fine.

2509
01:53:41,899 --> 01:53:45,289
The question is, is it achieving the results your community

2510
01:53:45,289 --> 01:53:45,899
wants?

2511
01:53:45,899 --> 01:53:49,010
And if the answer is no, well then something more is

2512
01:53:49,010 --> 01:53:49,899
required.

2513
01:53:49,899 --> 01:53:53,420
And you may not need to go as far as San Antonio has gone

2514
01:53:53,420 --> 01:53:55,899
and incur the cost that they have.

2515
01:53:55,899 --> 01:53:59,899
But you may want to do more than this.

2516
01:53:59,899 --> 01:54:01,899
Yes sir. Mr. Holm.

2517
01:54:01,899 --> 01:54:03,899
It's been answered in bits and pieces.

2518
01:54:03,899 --> 01:54:08,590
But in those communities who chose to go beyond the state

2519
01:54:08,590 --> 01:54:09,899
statutes in order,

2520
01:54:09,899 --> 01:54:15,899
what in the general way, what are the either blind spots

2521
01:54:15,899 --> 01:54:19,899
they thought they were covering that the state law doesn't?

2522
01:54:19,899 --> 01:54:21,899
Or what was it in response to?

2523
01:54:21,899 --> 01:54:25,899
What was the reason for?

2524
01:54:25,899 --> 01:54:28,760
What was the substance and the reason for going beyond what

2525
01:54:28,760 --> 01:54:29,899
's already in place?

2526
01:54:29,899 --> 01:54:32,569
And then the second question is, in those communities that

2527
01:54:32,569 --> 01:54:33,899
have a structure,

2528
01:54:33,899 --> 01:54:37,409
a mechanism outside of city council to review these things,

2529
01:54:37,409 --> 01:54:40,899
are those primarily cities that have their own ordinances?

2530
01:54:40,899 --> 01:54:43,899
In addition to 171.

2531
01:54:43,899 --> 01:54:45,899
Can you restate the second part of that?

2532
01:54:45,899 --> 01:54:48,989
In those cases where cities actually have an ethics

2533
01:54:48,989 --> 01:54:51,899
commission, some kind of body,

2534
01:54:51,899 --> 01:54:54,390
are those cities typically that are operating just under

2535
01:54:54,390 --> 01:54:57,640
the 171 and the state rules or do they usually have their

2536
01:54:57,640 --> 01:54:58,899
own city ordinances?

2537
01:54:58,899 --> 01:55:01,779
So I'll say the second one first. They have a city that

2538
01:55:01,779 --> 01:55:04,899
would have an ethics review commission or ethics commission

2539
01:55:04,899 --> 01:55:06,899
or board of ethics or whatever.

2540
01:55:06,899 --> 01:55:11,229
That's because they adopted an ordinance setting for some

2541
01:55:11,229 --> 01:55:14,899
rules and they wanted a body to administer it.

2542
01:55:14,899 --> 01:55:18,250
And again, I've seen all sorts. I've seen, just last week

2543
01:55:18,250 --> 01:55:18,899
in El Paso,

2544
01:55:18,899 --> 01:55:24,760
the mayor and each council member gets to appoint their

2545
01:55:24,760 --> 01:55:27,899
member to the board of ethics.

2546
01:55:27,899 --> 01:55:30,899
And there are some say, no, that's too political.

2547
01:55:30,899 --> 01:55:33,899
So that's why they want to go on their route.

2548
01:55:33,899 --> 01:55:37,229
In the city of Bastrop, Texas, that I'm also helping, they

2549
01:55:37,229 --> 01:55:41,430
only have a three member ethics review commission and it's

2550
01:55:41,430 --> 01:55:43,899
appointed by the entire city council.

2551
01:55:43,899 --> 01:55:46,899
So you can have those different extremes.

2552
01:55:46,899 --> 01:55:48,899
The first one was the impetus that led them.

2553
01:55:48,899 --> 01:55:51,890
I mean, I'm not going to be any help there because it's

2554
01:55:51,890 --> 01:55:53,899
just, it's all over the board.

2555
01:55:53,899 --> 01:55:58,100
You know, the Wimberley example, little tiny Wimberley,

2556
01:55:58,100 --> 01:56:01,899
there was no city there in the past to behave badly.

2557
01:56:01,899 --> 01:56:05,539
So it was just at the outset, they wanted to have this

2558
01:56:05,539 --> 01:56:09,659
openness and transparency in these rules to avoid problems

2559
01:56:09,659 --> 01:56:10,899
in the future.

2560
01:56:10,899 --> 01:56:14,060
In other cases, it's just what I've seen more often is they

2561
01:56:14,060 --> 01:56:17,409
case by case, they adopted ordinance restricting this or

2562
01:56:17,409 --> 01:56:20,899
restricting that or personnel policy dealing with this.

2563
01:56:20,899 --> 01:56:23,590
And all of a sudden they realize they've got them all over

2564
01:56:23,590 --> 01:56:26,539
the place, we consolidate them now into an ethics ordinance

2565
01:56:26,539 --> 01:56:26,899
.

2566
01:56:26,899 --> 01:56:29,859
I have seen communities that have said we understand state

2567
01:56:29,859 --> 01:56:32,899
law and we get it and we know the DA is out there watching.

2568
01:56:32,899 --> 01:56:34,899
That's not good enough for us.

2569
01:56:34,899 --> 01:56:38,899
We're better than the state law minimums.

2570
01:56:38,899 --> 01:56:40,899
We want something tight.

2571
01:56:40,899 --> 01:56:45,470
You know, I dealt with a board of ethics where the chairman

2572
01:56:45,470 --> 01:56:49,409
of the board of ethics who is now being charged with

2573
01:56:49,409 --> 01:56:55,899
reviewing their ordinance, he was a retired rear admiral.

2574
01:56:55,899 --> 01:56:57,899
And he had gone to Annapolis.

2575
01:56:57,899 --> 01:57:00,899
And he's like, Alan, you know, what's the code?

2576
01:57:00,899 --> 01:57:04,199
Oh, a cadet shall not lie, cheat or steal or tolerate those

2577
01:57:04,199 --> 01:57:04,899
that do.

2578
01:57:04,899 --> 01:57:06,899
That's exactly right.

2579
01:57:06,899 --> 01:57:09,899
Why do we need a 40 page ordinance when that was good

2580
01:57:09,899 --> 01:57:11,899
enough for us back in Annapolis?

2581
01:57:11,899 --> 01:57:13,899
I was like, well, that's a very fair question.

2582
01:57:13,899 --> 01:57:15,899
Let's spend some time talking about that.

2583
01:57:15,899 --> 01:57:19,470
And once you got in through the details, he understood why

2584
01:57:19,470 --> 01:57:22,899
more specific rules were helpful and they amended their

2585
01:57:22,899 --> 01:57:23,899
ordinance.

2586
01:57:23,899 --> 01:57:28,050
The council voted on it without changing a thing and there

2587
01:57:28,050 --> 01:57:28,899
it went.

2588
01:57:28,899 --> 01:57:29,899
Lied, cheat or steal.

2589
01:57:29,899 --> 01:57:34,170
As a police officer stealing when they accept a free meal

2590
01:57:34,170 --> 01:57:35,899
from a restaurant.

2591
01:57:35,899 --> 01:57:37,899
To me, that's not clear.

2592
01:57:37,899 --> 01:57:41,899
And I'll bet you absolutely no police officers chime in.

2593
01:57:41,899 --> 01:57:45,899
I bet that's happening at cities all across the state.

2594
01:57:45,899 --> 01:57:49,630
Police officers and firefighters getting comped meals a lot

2595
01:57:49,630 --> 01:57:49,899
.

2596
01:57:49,899 --> 01:57:51,899
Does that make them unethical people?

2597
01:57:51,899 --> 01:57:54,189
Are they likely to perform their services different than

2598
01:57:54,189 --> 01:57:55,899
they would if they paid for their meal?

2599
01:57:55,899 --> 01:57:57,899
I've seen no indication it would.

2600
01:57:57,899 --> 01:58:00,760
But boy, that one at this commission I was at was not

2601
01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:01,899
having any of it.

2602
01:58:01,899 --> 01:58:03,899
I don't like the way it looks.

2603
01:58:03,899 --> 01:58:06,899
I don't want restaurateurs to feel pressured to do that.

2604
01:58:06,899 --> 01:58:10,899
We pay our cops enough to buy their own meals.

2605
01:58:10,899 --> 01:58:14,260
So the whole cadet shall not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate

2606
01:58:14,260 --> 01:58:16,899
those that do doesn't fit that scenario.

2607
01:58:16,899 --> 01:58:18,840
And while I don't think you can ever craft an ordinance

2608
01:58:18,840 --> 01:58:21,899
that fits every scenario, you can hit on the big themes and

2609
01:58:21,899 --> 01:58:24,510
then fill in those holes with training and professional

2610
01:58:24,510 --> 01:58:24,899
standards.

2611
01:58:24,899 --> 01:58:27,800
To let folks know that, yeah, maybe I could do it, but I

2612
01:58:27,800 --> 01:58:28,899
shouldn't do it.

2613
01:58:28,899 --> 01:58:29,899
It ain't going to look right.

2614
01:58:29,899 --> 01:58:33,899
It doesn't feel right.

2615
01:58:33,899 --> 01:58:36,899
Did I answer either one of the two questions?

2616
01:58:36,899 --> 01:58:37,899
Pretty much.

2617
01:58:37,899 --> 01:58:40,899
I mean, I realize there wasn't an easy answer to it.

2618
01:58:40,899 --> 01:58:43,539
But I just, you know, trying to balance between so often

2619
01:58:43,539 --> 01:58:46,300
organizations that have governing documents, you know,

2620
01:58:46,300 --> 01:58:48,439
changes are reactive rather than a response to something

2621
01:58:48,439 --> 01:58:48,899
larger.

2622
01:58:48,899 --> 01:58:51,409
The next thing you know, we'll make sure this never happens

2623
01:58:51,409 --> 01:58:51,899
again.

2624
01:58:51,899 --> 01:58:54,899
Next thing you know, you've painted yourself into a corner.

2625
01:58:54,899 --> 01:58:57,529
And so I'm just trying to get my head around what it is

2626
01:58:57,529 --> 01:58:59,899
that we don't have yet that we need to add.

2627
01:58:59,899 --> 01:59:00,899
That's my question.

2628
01:59:00,899 --> 01:59:05,000
The janitor's wife's mutual fund scenario is why I'm always

2629
01:59:05,000 --> 01:59:08,770
going to recommend if you all do this and maybe you're on

2630
01:59:08,770 --> 01:59:12,510
the committee that eventually drafts it, you know, make

2631
01:59:12,510 --> 01:59:13,899
sure you've got a waiver clause.

2632
01:59:13,899 --> 01:59:16,760
Make sure there's a way to get out of the ethics rule, a

2633
01:59:16,760 --> 01:59:19,859
procedure for doing that, because sometimes the rule will

2634
01:59:19,859 --> 01:59:20,899
make no sense.

2635
01:59:20,899 --> 01:59:24,029
It'll make no sense at all and you want to have that bypass

2636
01:59:24,029 --> 01:59:24,899
mechanism.

2637
01:59:24,899 --> 01:59:26,899
It's not a loophole.

2638
01:59:26,899 --> 01:59:29,689
It's a process because no ordinance that we can draft is

2639
01:59:29,689 --> 01:59:30,899
going to make sense.

2640
01:59:30,899 --> 01:59:34,229
And if an ordinance is achieving a ridiculous result, there

2641
01:59:34,229 --> 01:59:36,899
should be some sort of safety valve built in.

2642
01:59:36,899 --> 01:59:39,930
And you can ask the city attorneys if you want their cell

2643
01:59:39,930 --> 01:59:42,680
phone numbers, I'll give them to you, of Plano and San

2644
01:59:42,680 --> 01:59:43,899
Antonio and San Marcos.

2645
01:59:43,899 --> 01:59:46,149
And they'll tell you, yeah, no matter how proud we are of

2646
01:59:46,149 --> 01:59:49,109
our ordinance, there's always a scenario that comes up that

2647
01:59:49,109 --> 01:59:49,899
puts us in a corner.

2648
01:59:49,899 --> 01:59:53,239
And we wish we had a way out, which that's why San Antonio

2649
01:59:53,239 --> 01:59:55,899
does have a waiver provision in theirs.

2650
01:59:55,899 --> 01:59:57,899
I'm sorry. Yes, David.

2651
01:59:57,899 --> 02:00:02,159
For Denton or any other city that was trying to decide

2652
02:00:02,159 --> 02:00:06,100
whether or not local state law will be enough or they need

2653
02:00:06,100 --> 02:00:06,899
to go beyond.

2654
02:00:06,899 --> 02:00:10,289
You mentioned, you know, DA out there watching, is the

2655
02:00:10,289 --> 02:00:13,710
actual history of a prosecutor's office relevant to make

2656
02:00:13,710 --> 02:00:14,899
that decision?

2657
02:00:14,899 --> 02:00:18,460
I mean, if you see what I'm, if it's never happened, I mean

2658
02:00:18,460 --> 02:00:20,899
, suddenly what's going to change?

2659
02:00:20,899 --> 02:00:25,140
What's the game changer there if City X has decided, well,

2660
02:00:25,140 --> 02:00:28,899
we're going to go with state law if you'll help us.

2661
02:00:28,899 --> 02:00:36,180
So is the local DA's history of enforcement a factor to be

2662
02:00:36,180 --> 02:00:39,489
considered in deciding on whether or not your city should

2663
02:00:39,489 --> 02:00:42,899
just rely on state law or go and adopt your own rules?

2664
02:00:42,899 --> 02:00:45,899
You know, I've seen DA's change too many times.

2665
02:00:45,899 --> 02:00:50,789
I mean, it used to be that my sense was DA's do not want to

2666
02:00:50,789 --> 02:00:53,899
be caught up in local politics.

2667
02:00:53,899 --> 02:00:56,869
The voters put this person there on city council or on

2668
02:00:56,869 --> 02:00:57,899
school board.

2669
02:00:57,899 --> 02:01:00,899
I shouldn't be getting cross with the voters.

2670
02:01:00,899 --> 02:01:02,899
I haven't seen that for years.

2671
02:01:02,899 --> 02:01:05,979
What I've seen lately is I've seen DA's across the state

2672
02:01:05,979 --> 02:01:09,010
are actually looking into these matters and the Texas

2673
02:01:09,010 --> 02:01:10,899
Rangers are investigating.

2674
02:01:10,899 --> 02:01:14,180
It's been tough when, you know, the local Texas Ranger is

2675
02:01:14,180 --> 02:01:16,899
really in charge of doing that sort of thing.

2676
02:01:16,899 --> 02:01:19,970
The public integrity aspect of the business is reassigned

2677
02:01:19,970 --> 02:01:20,899
to the border.

2678
02:01:20,899 --> 02:01:22,899
I've had to deal with those sorts of things.

2679
02:01:22,899 --> 02:01:29,729
It's an asset allocation challenge where the Texas Rangers

2680
02:01:29,729 --> 02:01:34,439
are going to spend their time dealing with the local ethics

2681
02:01:34,439 --> 02:01:35,899
issue when they've got bigger problems,

2682
02:01:35,899 --> 02:01:39,970
mandates coming from above to deal with, and the DA is the

2683
02:01:39,970 --> 02:01:40,899
same way.

2684
02:01:40,899 --> 02:01:42,899
But no, I mean, I don't know.

2685
02:01:42,899 --> 02:01:47,539
It's an old mantra from my municipal court prosecution days

2686
02:01:47,539 --> 02:01:47,899
.

2687
02:01:47,899 --> 02:01:50,899
The process is the punishment.

2688
02:01:50,899 --> 02:01:52,899
Sometimes that is the case.

2689
02:01:52,899 --> 02:01:54,899
Even if you get off, you go to trial on that speeding

2690
02:01:54,899 --> 02:01:57,630
ticket and you get off, usually your prosecutor is going to

2691
02:01:57,630 --> 02:01:58,899
go, oh, well, I don't care.

2692
02:01:58,899 --> 02:02:00,899
I still made them show up.

2693
02:02:00,899 --> 02:02:03,510
They had to take two days or three days off of work to show

2694
02:02:03,510 --> 02:02:03,899
up.

2695
02:02:03,899 --> 02:02:05,899
They had to put their case on before a jury.

2696
02:02:05,899 --> 02:02:07,899
The jury didn't buy my officer.

2697
02:02:07,899 --> 02:02:09,899
Oh, well, I bet they're not going to speed here again.

2698
02:02:09,899 --> 02:02:12,899
And most of the times they don't.

2699
02:02:12,899 --> 02:02:17,829
I think being investigated by Texas Rangers or taken before

2700
02:02:17,829 --> 02:02:23,899
a grand jury is enough to make most folks not do it again.

2701
02:02:23,899 --> 02:02:25,979
But again, there's, you know, righteous people are not

2702
02:02:25,979 --> 02:02:27,899
going to let themselves get caught in that trap.

2703
02:02:27,899 --> 02:02:29,899
Sloppy people are.

2704
02:02:29,899 --> 02:02:33,000
I think a sloppy person is caught in the trap is unlikely

2705
02:02:33,000 --> 02:02:33,899
to do again.

2706
02:02:33,899 --> 02:02:36,649
The hardcore bad actors who just think they're above it all

2707
02:02:36,649 --> 02:02:37,899
and immune from it all.

2708
02:02:37,899 --> 02:02:40,760
Nothing is going to teach them and no ethics ordinance is

2709
02:02:40,760 --> 02:02:41,899
going to deter them.

2710
02:02:41,899 --> 02:02:44,880
I have council members right now that I represent whose

2711
02:02:44,880 --> 02:02:46,899
families own big chunks of property.

2712
02:02:46,899 --> 02:02:49,439
And while they'll do the proper thing and abstain from

2713
02:02:49,439 --> 02:02:53,279
deliberations at the dais, when a vote comes up, they are

2714
02:02:53,279 --> 02:02:54,899
really still behind the scenes at City Hall,

2715
02:02:54,899 --> 02:02:58,210
gathering as much data and influencing the process as much

2716
02:02:58,210 --> 02:02:58,899
as they can.

2717
02:02:58,899 --> 02:03:01,640
So their family can maximize their return on this

2718
02:03:01,640 --> 02:03:02,899
development deal.

2719
02:03:02,899 --> 02:03:05,899
And there's no amount of ethics rules, ethics policies,

2720
02:03:05,899 --> 02:03:08,899
ethics commissions that's going to change that person.

2721
02:03:08,899 --> 02:03:11,899
And the voters put them there not once, but twice.

2722
02:03:11,899 --> 02:03:15,899
So we just kind of sit back as city staff and go.

2723
02:03:15,899 --> 02:03:17,899
What can you do?

2724
02:03:17,899 --> 02:03:18,899
Sure.

2725
02:03:18,899 --> 02:03:20,899
Mr. Alexander first.

2726
02:03:20,899 --> 02:03:27,579
And the issue too is that the D.A. and the Texas Rangers

2727
02:03:27,579 --> 02:03:33,300
are likely only to become involved in a case where there is

2728
02:03:33,300 --> 02:03:35,899
a criminal statute in question.

2729
02:03:35,899 --> 02:03:40,819
They're not going to be investigating very much if it's

2730
02:03:40,819 --> 02:03:43,899
simply a violation of a policy.

2731
02:03:43,899 --> 02:03:45,899
I think you're right about that.

2732
02:03:45,899 --> 02:03:47,899
They don't really care about your local rules much.

2733
02:03:47,899 --> 02:03:53,989
Although I have actually seen a D.A. take a local rule, a

2734
02:03:53,989 --> 02:03:58,760
city's ethics ordinance, and try to bootstrap that into a

2735
02:03:58,760 --> 02:04:00,899
state law violation.

2736
02:04:00,899 --> 02:04:04,899
And I thought it was a very tortured interpretation.

2737
02:04:04,899 --> 02:04:07,640
What does our personnel policy have to do with your

2738
02:04:07,640 --> 02:04:09,899
investigation of a state law offense?

2739
02:04:09,899 --> 02:04:12,689
But I've seen them do it against someone in city management

2740
02:04:12,689 --> 02:04:12,899
.

2741
02:04:12,899 --> 02:04:15,800
And it was uncomfortable for me because I disagreed on

2742
02:04:15,800 --> 02:04:16,899
their approach.

2743
02:04:16,899 --> 02:04:17,899
They don't care.

2744
02:04:17,899 --> 02:04:22,439
One thing they do care about is, you know, there's been

2745
02:04:22,439 --> 02:04:24,899
times when, I mean, I'll tell you folks, there's been times

2746
02:04:24,899 --> 02:04:31,899
when a citizen so hates that this deal is being done,

2747
02:04:31,899 --> 02:04:32,899
whatever it is.

2748
02:04:32,899 --> 02:04:35,289
Permits have been approved, contracts have been signed,

2749
02:04:35,289 --> 02:04:35,899
whatever.

2750
02:04:35,899 --> 02:04:38,899
They hate the outcome that they're getting from City Hall.

2751
02:04:38,899 --> 02:04:42,310
So they file an ethics complaint at City Hall triggering

2752
02:04:42,310 --> 02:04:43,899
the ethics ordinance.

2753
02:04:43,899 --> 02:04:47,050
They go and file a complaint with the district attorney's

2754
02:04:47,050 --> 02:04:50,229
office and they go to the media, which is kind of the uno

2755
02:04:50,229 --> 02:04:52,899
fficial third enforcement arm over here.

2756
02:04:52,899 --> 02:04:55,930
People will do a lot to try to avoid being accused or

2757
02:04:55,930 --> 02:04:59,560
questioned about something in the front page of a newspaper

2758
02:04:59,560 --> 02:04:59,899
.

2759
02:04:59,899 --> 02:05:04,069
And I've tried to guide the city through that kind of

2760
02:05:04,069 --> 02:05:07,470
scenario and I get phone calls from the district attorney's

2761
02:05:07,470 --> 02:05:09,899
office saying, I know you're looking at all these

2762
02:05:09,899 --> 02:05:10,899
complaints.

2763
02:05:10,899 --> 02:05:13,899
You go ahead and police your ethics ordinance.

2764
02:05:13,899 --> 02:05:17,350
We're asking you not to touch the state law stuff because

2765
02:05:17,350 --> 02:05:21,109
we don't want you questioning witnesses about things that

2766
02:05:21,109 --> 02:05:23,899
we're going to be questioning about in a criminal context.

2767
02:05:23,899 --> 02:05:25,899
We don't want cross contamination.

2768
02:05:25,899 --> 02:05:27,899
We don't want you polluting the witnesses.

2769
02:05:27,899 --> 02:05:32,899
We don't want this in the media to affect future jurors.

2770
02:05:32,899 --> 02:05:36,250
And so we actually are being told by the DA to not look at

2771
02:05:36,250 --> 02:05:39,319
the earlier slides I showed you that are state law

2772
02:05:39,319 --> 02:05:42,899
violations that are all included in the complaint.

2773
02:05:42,899 --> 02:05:44,899
The citizen included those things.

2774
02:05:44,899 --> 02:05:47,899
Dear Mayor and Council, your person did this.

2775
02:05:47,899 --> 02:05:48,899
Investigate them.

2776
02:05:48,899 --> 02:05:52,270
And so my response from the council is we do what the DA

2777
02:05:52,270 --> 02:05:52,899
says.

2778
02:05:52,899 --> 02:05:56,899
We're not going to bite off a fight with the DA's office.

2779
02:05:56,899 --> 02:05:58,899
So we're going to decline.

2780
02:05:58,899 --> 02:06:01,260
And that's why I think there's another good idea to have a

2781
02:06:01,260 --> 02:06:04,359
process if you have an ethics code, have something in there

2782
02:06:04,359 --> 02:06:09,640
to abate or temporarily suspend any sort of ethics review

2783
02:06:09,640 --> 02:06:12,899
if you know a criminal action is being investigated

2784
02:06:12,899 --> 02:06:13,899
elsewhere.

2785
02:06:13,899 --> 02:06:17,979
And I'll go back to the notion of an ethics review board

2786
02:06:17,979 --> 02:06:22,520
reviewing what is in essence an open meetings act violation

2787
02:06:22,520 --> 02:06:22,899
.

2788
02:06:22,899 --> 02:06:25,899
The legislature gave us a process for that.

2789
02:06:25,899 --> 02:06:26,899
Let that run its course.

2790
02:06:26,899 --> 02:06:28,899
It is what it is.

2791
02:06:28,899 --> 02:06:32,899
You focus on the stuff that the legislature did not do.

2792
02:06:32,899 --> 02:06:35,899
And that's my recommendation.

2793
02:06:35,899 --> 02:06:36,899
Yes, sir.

2794
02:06:36,899 --> 02:06:37,899
Mr. Eaton.

2795
02:06:37,899 --> 02:06:40,210
So along those lines, I know in our policy we have all

2796
02:06:40,210 --> 02:06:41,899
those civil statutes listed out.

2797
02:06:41,899 --> 02:06:43,899
Yes.

2798
02:06:43,899 --> 02:06:45,899
And then of course we have 171.

2799
02:06:45,899 --> 02:06:51,670
So I guess my question is, where does section 145 fit in

2800
02:06:51,670 --> 02:06:57,310
all that with the reporting of the physical statements, the

2801
02:06:57,310 --> 02:06:58,899
financials?

2802
02:06:58,899 --> 02:07:02,899
Because the city is taking in all the financial statements.

2803
02:07:02,899 --> 02:07:07,300
Who, I guess, if we're listing all those things in our

2804
02:07:07,300 --> 02:07:11,899
ethics policy, should that not fall in there as well?

2805
02:07:11,899 --> 02:07:13,899
I think you could.

2806
02:07:13,899 --> 02:07:15,899
I think that's an option for you.

2807
02:07:15,899 --> 02:07:17,899
I don't think it's required.

2808
02:07:17,899 --> 02:07:20,779
Just because the state has put you in the business of

2809
02:07:20,779 --> 02:07:23,899
collecting and storing these forms and sometimes submitting

2810
02:07:23,899 --> 02:07:27,329
them, rendering them back to the state, I don't think you

2811
02:07:27,329 --> 02:07:28,899
have to do that.

2812
02:07:28,899 --> 02:07:31,760
I see where it would make sense to do so because you lifted

2813
02:07:31,760 --> 02:07:32,899
these other things.

2814
02:07:32,899 --> 02:07:39,729
But then, you know, this is kind of like me telling my

2815
02:07:39,729 --> 02:07:42,899
client, you must follow the law.

2816
02:07:42,899 --> 02:07:44,899
They already had that requirement to do so.

2817
02:07:44,899 --> 02:07:48,180
Me telling them didn't really add anything other than maybe

2818
02:07:48,180 --> 02:07:49,899
an educational component.

2819
02:07:49,899 --> 02:07:53,119
I still don't know that this gives anybody at the City of

2820
02:07:53,119 --> 02:07:55,899
Denton the ability to police these things.

2821
02:07:55,899 --> 02:07:59,539
And so, you know, I'm always going to recommend you just

2822
02:07:59,539 --> 02:08:00,899
look at state law.

2823
02:08:00,899 --> 02:08:03,899
Does it achieve the results you want?

2824
02:08:03,899 --> 02:08:04,899
What's lacking?

2825
02:08:04,899 --> 02:08:05,899
Is it education?

2826
02:08:05,899 --> 02:08:07,899
Is it enforcement?

2827
02:08:07,899 --> 02:08:09,899
Or does the state law not go far enough?

2828
02:08:09,899 --> 02:08:12,489
And for those who are convinced state law doesn't go far

2829
02:08:12,489 --> 02:08:15,460
enough or they think no one's enforcing state law, whether

2830
02:08:15,460 --> 02:08:19,060
you can create your own provisions that are as tight or

2831
02:08:19,060 --> 02:08:20,899
tighter than state law.

2832
02:08:20,899 --> 02:08:24,420
If you're going to do that, then, you know, there's a

2833
02:08:24,420 --> 02:08:28,300
resource allocation challenge for you, but y'all can meet

2834
02:08:28,300 --> 02:08:28,899
it.

2835
02:08:28,899 --> 02:08:40,899
145, I think it's an option. It's not required.

2836
02:08:40,899 --> 02:08:48,140
What do other cities do in initiating newly elected council

2837
02:08:48,140 --> 02:08:55,539
members and boards and commissions appointees in regards to

2838
02:08:55,539 --> 02:09:01,899
ethics training or indoctrination or tutorial?

2839
02:09:01,899 --> 02:09:05,899
Some cities will have an actual in-person training video.

2840
02:09:05,899 --> 02:09:07,899
I'm sorry, a training session.

2841
02:09:07,899 --> 02:09:10,760
Some of them will videotape it for those who can't attend

2842
02:09:10,760 --> 02:09:12,899
and make it available to them otherwise.

2843
02:09:12,899 --> 02:09:17,979
A lot of cities view the orientation of new members as

2844
02:09:17,979 --> 02:09:22,899
being a task for TML or, you know, North Central Texas COG

2845
02:09:22,899 --> 02:09:25,680
or someone else to do and spend the money for them to go

2846
02:09:25,680 --> 02:09:26,899
off and get their training that way.

2847
02:09:26,899 --> 02:09:29,380
Certainly there's lots of people who offer newly elected

2848
02:09:29,380 --> 02:09:30,899
officials training seminars.

2849
02:09:30,899 --> 02:09:34,899
Others take it on in-house and that's an in-house function.

2850
02:09:34,899 --> 02:09:37,560
For sure, it usually covers open meetings, open records,

2851
02:09:37,560 --> 02:09:40,350
how does the city function, what are the policies of the

2852
02:09:40,350 --> 02:09:43,539
cities, and if you have an ethics component, that's

2853
02:09:43,539 --> 02:09:44,899
included in there.

2854
02:09:44,899 --> 02:09:48,899
I think that's a good first step.

2855
02:09:48,899 --> 02:09:51,659
It's amazing how many times you can just Google certain

2856
02:09:51,659 --> 02:09:54,720
ethics complaints about newly elected officials not taking

2857
02:09:54,720 --> 02:09:57,760
their ethics training and what people are really referring

2858
02:09:57,760 --> 02:10:00,899
to is the required open meetings, open records training,

2859
02:10:00,899 --> 02:10:03,899
which is another state law requirement.

2860
02:10:03,899 --> 02:10:06,899
Let me ask Aaron and Brian.

2861
02:10:06,899 --> 02:10:10,760
What do we do as the city of Denton as far as the

2862
02:10:10,760 --> 02:10:17,100
introductory tutorial to city council members or board and

2863
02:10:17,100 --> 02:10:23,529
commissions appointees as far as the ethics and the law

2864
02:10:23,529 --> 02:10:27,899
requirements, legal requirements?

2865
02:10:27,899 --> 02:10:30,689
I know with respect to all the appointed boards and

2866
02:10:30,689 --> 02:10:33,760
officials, especially like the PNZ and ZBA that do have

2867
02:10:33,760 --> 02:10:37,260
final decision making authority, we conduct a separate

2868
02:10:37,260 --> 02:10:41,220
orientation with them, which among one of the topics

2869
02:10:41,220 --> 02:10:45,899
discussed is ethics and we talked with them about that.

2870
02:10:45,899 --> 02:10:49,130
As far as the council, new member orientation for council

2871
02:10:49,130 --> 02:10:52,489
members, the city attorney's office has our own in addition

2872
02:10:52,489 --> 02:10:55,640
to the city management's orientation and that's another

2873
02:10:55,640 --> 02:10:58,899
topic that is covered within the orientation itself.

2874
02:10:58,899 --> 02:11:02,460
It's more we're trying to get to the laws that most

2875
02:11:02,460 --> 02:11:07,020
commonly get implicated while they're serving, which is the

2876
02:11:07,020 --> 02:11:10,949
conflict of interest and the nepotism and we give that

2877
02:11:10,949 --> 02:11:15,079
tutorial and then we also offer them documents that they

2878
02:11:15,079 --> 02:11:19,899
could read to be able to determine or to more fully know

2879
02:11:19,899 --> 02:11:24,100
about ethics, specifically the conflicts of interest and

2880
02:11:24,100 --> 02:11:24,899
the nepotism.

2881
02:11:24,899 --> 02:11:29,899
Thank you.

2882
02:11:29,899 --> 02:11:32,609
Thanks to that we always have an orientation as Aaron

2883
02:11:32,609 --> 02:11:35,869
mentioned with the city manager's office, the attorneys, we

2884
02:11:35,869 --> 02:11:38,899
go through lots of different things with new members.

2885
02:11:38,899 --> 02:11:41,420
And most of our new members go to the TML, the Texas

2886
02:11:41,420 --> 02:11:44,670
Municipal League newly elected member orientation, and they

2887
02:11:44,670 --> 02:11:47,460
have a series of sessions that they go through and learn

2888
02:11:47,460 --> 02:11:50,479
about all kinds of different things so that's typically the

2889
02:11:50,479 --> 02:11:51,899
process we've used.

2890
02:11:51,899 --> 02:11:58,899
Thank you.

2891
02:11:58,899 --> 02:12:01,899
Yes, Miss Ramsey.

2892
02:12:01,899 --> 02:12:05,489
It's on trust really interesting and this may be a little

2893
02:12:05,489 --> 02:12:08,930
bit of a side issue but what have you seen cities do in an

2894
02:12:08,930 --> 02:12:11,899
effort to increase the trust of citizens.

2895
02:12:11,899 --> 02:12:14,899
Is it ethics or is it something else.

2896
02:12:14,899 --> 02:12:18,960
The thing I've seen most recently for cities trying to

2897
02:12:18,960 --> 02:12:23,659
increase trust is moving toward more transparency, which is

2898
02:12:23,659 --> 02:12:27,899
really more of an open records open meetings thing.

2899
02:12:27,899 --> 02:12:32,020
But it's, it's a response to that notion that decisions are

2900
02:12:32,020 --> 02:12:35,979
being made at City Hall, and we the electorate don't know

2901
02:12:35,979 --> 02:12:37,899
why we don't know what.

2902
02:12:37,899 --> 02:12:40,600
So even though they could be an executive session more

2903
02:12:40,600 --> 02:12:43,479
often, they're not even though they could withhold some

2904
02:12:43,479 --> 02:12:44,899
records they try not to.

2905
02:12:44,899 --> 02:12:49,170
I see cities big and small spending more and more money on

2906
02:12:49,170 --> 02:12:53,539
technology for you know laser fish and all these these new

2907
02:12:53,539 --> 02:12:57,899
things to get more data uploaded to the web, where people

2908
02:12:57,899 --> 02:13:01,899
don't even have to file open records requests.

2909
02:13:01,899 --> 02:13:05,449
They can search a lot of it themselves and the city never

2910
02:13:05,449 --> 02:13:09,239
even tracks that they were there. That that's a little bit

2911
02:13:09,239 --> 02:13:12,439
more expensive, but I see a lot of that and in part because

2912
02:13:12,439 --> 02:13:15,899
I see new elected officials coming in on a transparency

2913
02:13:15,899 --> 02:13:16,899
platform.

2914
02:13:16,899 --> 02:13:20,199
And then they have to realize what that really means. Often

2915
02:13:20,199 --> 02:13:23,020
the city in my experience is fine with most of the records

2916
02:13:23,020 --> 02:13:25,899
being sought. It's the process of doing it.

2917
02:13:25,899 --> 02:13:30,170
And so, particularly large cities are, you know, creating

2918
02:13:30,170 --> 02:13:34,189
whole new sites or new aspects to their sites, just to push

2919
02:13:34,189 --> 02:13:35,899
more data out there.

2920
02:13:35,899 --> 02:13:40,260
I don't know if it's going to have the intended result or

2921
02:13:40,260 --> 02:13:40,899
not.

2922
02:13:40,899 --> 02:13:49,899
Ethics reform, I don't see a lot of as an effort to do that

2923
02:13:49,899 --> 02:13:49,899
.

2924
02:13:49,899 --> 02:13:55,899
Sure.

2925
02:13:55,899 --> 02:14:10,899
Yes, sir.

2926
02:14:10,899 --> 02:14:32,899
So, I guess my question is, does the person have to receive

2927
02:14:32,899 --> 02:14:32,899
10% prior to your from that business entity, and then the

2928
02:14:32,899 --> 02:14:32,899
conflict mattress comes into question, or are they looking

2929
02:14:32,899 --> 02:14:32,899
at the current time, and we say okay that has to exceed 10%

2930
02:14:32,899 --> 02:14:32,899
of whatever was made last year.

2931
02:14:32,899 --> 02:14:36,659
My understanding is that with what you reported as your

2932
02:14:36,659 --> 02:14:40,819
gross income the previous year, if more than 10% of that

2933
02:14:40,819 --> 02:14:44,840
came from this entity, then when that entity comes before

2934
02:14:44,840 --> 02:14:48,899
you the following year, 171 is triggered and you're

2935
02:14:48,899 --> 02:14:51,899
prohibited.

2936
02:14:51,899 --> 02:14:58,899
That's right.

2937
02:14:58,899 --> 02:15:05,000
Well, I'm just thinking about how that works in practice. I

2938
02:15:05,000 --> 02:15:09,899
think several of us have had some concern about that.

2939
02:15:09,899 --> 02:15:14,319
But what about a project that you might be voting on, from

2940
02:15:14,319 --> 02:15:19,329
which you got no income, because the project didn't even

2941
02:15:19,329 --> 02:15:21,899
exist in the last tax year.

2942
02:15:21,899 --> 02:15:26,130
Now you've got a project that you're working on, and you

2943
02:15:26,130 --> 02:15:28,899
still haven't had any income yet.

2944
02:15:28,899 --> 02:15:34,550
So you can still cast your vote on that project without

2945
02:15:34,550 --> 02:15:36,899
violating 171.

2946
02:15:36,899 --> 02:15:42,020
If you still have yet to receive income, is that not the

2947
02:15:42,020 --> 02:15:42,899
case.

2948
02:15:42,899 --> 02:15:47,130
That's the case I think if it involves real estate, then

2949
02:15:47,130 --> 02:15:52,420
you've got the $2,500 threshold that triggers in, because

2950
02:15:52,420 --> 02:15:55,899
it's an either or with that list, it's not all the above.

2951
02:15:55,899 --> 02:15:58,899
Because you do have that separately dealing with plans.

2952
02:15:58,899 --> 02:16:10,899
Yes.

2953
02:16:10,899 --> 02:16:16,600
$2,500 with plats, $2,500 under 171 also. So whether it's a

2954
02:16:16,600 --> 02:16:21,500
plat issue or anything else, if you own $2,500 worth of

2955
02:16:21,500 --> 02:16:25,699
that real estate, you've got a 171 conflict, even if it

2956
02:16:25,699 --> 02:16:29,899
didn't generate any income the previous year.

2957
02:16:29,899 --> 02:16:33,909
So I kind of asked this earlier, what if your property is

2958
02:16:33,909 --> 02:16:38,100
next door, and the project you're voting on increases the

2959
02:16:38,100 --> 02:16:41,870
value of the property that you own, or your broker or

2960
02:16:41,870 --> 02:16:46,069
whatever, and there's no transaction happening today or in

2961
02:16:46,069 --> 02:16:47,899
the next year.

2962
02:16:47,899 --> 02:16:50,450
This project is going to make this land more valuable, and

2963
02:16:50,450 --> 02:16:51,899
I'll sell it in 10 years.

2964
02:16:51,899 --> 02:16:56,809
That income isn't realized, but the value goes up and it

2965
02:16:56,809 --> 02:17:00,760
wasn't income that's realized. And I think some of those

2966
02:17:00,760 --> 02:17:02,899
types of things are what's come up around here recently,

2967
02:17:02,899 --> 02:17:07,450
and probably doesn't violate anything in here, but it just

2968
02:17:07,450 --> 02:17:09,899
doesn't look good to the community.

2969
02:17:09,899 --> 02:17:13,670
And that's where I think some of our, how do we have some

2970
02:17:13,670 --> 02:17:14,899
teeth in this.

2971
02:17:14,899 --> 02:17:17,569
It doesn't look good, it smells bad, we have some questions

2972
02:17:17,569 --> 02:17:20,219
about what's really happening here, maybe I'm not getting

2973
02:17:20,219 --> 02:17:22,690
money today, but it's going to help me over here down the

2974
02:17:22,690 --> 02:17:25,250
road, and that's where we're getting into, if I can put

2975
02:17:25,250 --> 02:17:27,899
words in everybody's mouth.

2976
02:17:27,899 --> 02:17:28,899
Thank you.

2977
02:17:28,899 --> 02:17:31,899
It doesn't violate any laws, but...

2978
02:17:31,899 --> 02:17:35,370
If it affects your property different than it affects

2979
02:17:35,370 --> 02:17:39,379
property at large, your neighbor's property, then there's

2980
02:17:39,379 --> 02:17:43,690
an argument that 171 does kick in, because you own property

2981
02:17:43,690 --> 02:17:47,530
that's valued at more than $2,500, and you're voting on

2982
02:17:47,530 --> 02:17:50,899
something next door, it's going to affect your property

2983
02:17:50,899 --> 02:17:54,030
more than another, and therefore you should follow the aff

2984
02:17:54,030 --> 02:17:54,899
idavit and abstain.

2985
02:17:54,899 --> 02:17:58,149
It's to cover that sort of thing that the AG's office,

2986
02:17:58,149 --> 02:18:02,239
attorney general's office used to use the 200 foot rule, in

2987
02:18:02,239 --> 02:18:04,899
which case yours would be triggered.

2988
02:18:04,899 --> 02:18:07,510
You're not voting on your property, you're voting on the

2989
02:18:07,510 --> 02:18:10,020
property next door, but yours is going to be effective

2990
02:18:10,020 --> 02:18:12,899
different than the public at large, therefore abstain.

2991
02:18:12,899 --> 02:18:15,940
When they get away with the 200 foot rule, now it's a case

2992
02:18:15,940 --> 02:18:16,899
by case basis.

2993
02:18:16,899 --> 02:18:20,690
The smart play is for you to abstain, so you don't have

2994
02:18:20,690 --> 02:18:22,899
these ethics allegations.

2995
02:18:22,899 --> 02:18:26,950
Or, you go ahead and vote and take the risk under the

2996
02:18:26,950 --> 02:18:28,899
ethics allegations.

2997
02:18:28,899 --> 02:18:32,840
But certainly, that's the kind of scenario where people

2998
02:18:32,840 --> 02:18:36,690
might feel motivated to adopt ethics ordinances that go

2999
02:18:36,690 --> 02:18:37,899
beyond this.

3000
02:18:37,899 --> 02:18:39,899
Exactly.

3001
02:18:39,899 --> 02:18:44,520
And abstaining in general is, and abstaining from

3002
02:18:44,520 --> 02:18:49,899
conversation, and read right to the didn't, it's voting.

3003
02:18:49,899 --> 02:18:54,250
I think what it really means is discussion at the dais,

3004
02:18:54,250 --> 02:18:57,479
voting at the dais, and I would say don't go grab the

3005
02:18:57,479 --> 02:18:59,899
podium and try and influence it from there.

3006
02:18:59,899 --> 02:19:02,440
What I wish people would do is just stop talking about it

3007
02:19:02,440 --> 02:19:03,899
all together at City Hall.

3008
02:19:03,899 --> 02:19:06,559
Don't go back to the city manager's office and talk about

3009
02:19:06,559 --> 02:19:06,899
it.

3010
02:19:06,899 --> 02:19:09,899
Don't go to the city planning department and talk about it.

3011
02:19:09,899 --> 02:19:13,299
It says abstain from participation, but there really are no

3012
02:19:13,299 --> 02:19:14,899
opinions going that far.

3013
02:19:14,899 --> 02:19:19,180
Participation could be in the city manager's office or

3014
02:19:19,180 --> 02:19:22,790
council person at the coffee shop or an attorney up in

3015
02:19:22,790 --> 02:19:23,899
front of the public.

3016
02:19:23,899 --> 02:19:24,899
Yeah.

3017
02:19:24,899 --> 02:19:27,590
If you're truly going to be an ethical person, you're not

3018
02:19:27,590 --> 02:19:30,479
going to try to influence that action either way because

3019
02:19:30,479 --> 02:19:33,899
you know it's going to affect your bottom line.

3020
02:19:33,899 --> 02:19:38,239
But there's no case or AG opinion I know that takes it that

3021
02:19:38,239 --> 02:19:38,899
far.

3022
02:19:38,899 --> 02:19:48,899
What if we indent added language in an ethics ordinance

3023
02:19:48,899 --> 02:19:55,290
that clarified that point, that participation means more

3024
02:19:55,290 --> 02:19:56,899
than voting.

3025
02:19:56,899 --> 02:20:04,129
Participation means being actively involved in discussions

3026
02:20:04,129 --> 02:20:10,899
or considerations or lobbying for approval of X, Y, or Z.

3027
02:20:10,899 --> 02:20:16,370
As a city staffer and other communities, I would appreciate

3028
02:20:16,370 --> 02:20:16,899
that.

3029
02:20:16,899 --> 02:20:19,760
Just because I see the pain on the city planners face and

3030
02:20:19,760 --> 02:20:22,680
the deputy city managers face when they're having to deal

3031
02:20:22,680 --> 02:20:25,649
with questions from a city council member about property

3032
02:20:25,649 --> 02:20:27,899
that's clearly covered under 171.

3033
02:20:27,899 --> 02:20:30,010
And that council member does all the right things during

3034
02:20:30,010 --> 02:20:30,899
council meetings.

3035
02:20:30,899 --> 02:20:31,899
Oops, it's my issue.

3036
02:20:31,899 --> 02:20:32,899
I got to go y'all.

3037
02:20:32,899 --> 02:20:33,899
I'm going to get some coffee.

3038
02:20:33,899 --> 02:20:36,620
But behind the scenes, they're bugging staff nonstop over

3039
02:20:36,620 --> 02:20:41,899
it, trying to either get information or they're trying to

3040
02:20:41,899 --> 02:20:43,899
put their thumb on the scale.

3041
02:20:43,899 --> 02:20:46,899
And I don't think state law gives us an answer on that.

3042
02:20:46,899 --> 02:20:49,809
So I caution folks go above and beyond so people don't

3043
02:20:49,809 --> 02:20:51,899
think we're doing self-dealing.

3044
02:20:51,899 --> 02:20:54,010
That's the exact kind of thing that an ethics ordinance

3045
02:20:54,010 --> 02:20:54,899
could take care of.

3046
02:20:54,899 --> 02:20:58,889
And your staff would probably appreciate because that gives

3047
02:20:58,889 --> 02:20:59,899
them an out.

3048
02:20:59,899 --> 02:21:00,899
Absolutely.

3049
02:21:00,899 --> 02:21:04,700
When they're feeling pressured by their bosses to cooperate

3050
02:21:04,700 --> 02:21:08,899
, when really they don't feel right about doing so.

3051
02:21:08,899 --> 02:21:26,899
[INAUDIBLE]

3052
02:21:26,899 --> 02:21:30,700
I think you can sign one affidavit declaring one interest,

3053
02:21:30,700 --> 02:21:34,040
file it with the city secretary, and it'll cover you

3054
02:21:34,040 --> 02:21:37,680
regardless of whether you're on one or more city boards or

3055
02:21:37,680 --> 02:21:38,899
commissions.

3056
02:21:38,899 --> 02:21:44,049
And you have to identify what the interest is and what it's

3057
02:21:44,049 --> 02:21:45,899
a conflict with.

3058
02:21:45,899 --> 02:21:48,899
But once you've done that, I think you've done your duty.

3059
02:21:48,899 --> 02:21:53,899
If it changes, then you'd want to file a new one.

3060
02:21:53,899 --> 02:21:55,899
Yes.

3061
02:21:55,899 --> 02:21:59,409
I think we are having a lot of good discussion about what

3062
02:21:59,409 --> 02:22:01,899
we could see and what could happen.

3063
02:22:01,899 --> 02:22:05,680
But I think we should go back to our initial charge and

3064
02:22:05,680 --> 02:22:09,899
decide as a committee what exactly we should be doing here.

3065
02:22:09,899 --> 02:22:13,180
If we should be adding this language to the charter or if

3066
02:22:13,180 --> 02:22:16,159
we should just be adjusting the language to do the

3067
02:22:16,159 --> 02:22:19,000
ordinance or whatnot instead of getting into the weeds of

3068
02:22:19,000 --> 02:22:20,899
exactly what it should say at this point.

3069
02:22:20,899 --> 02:22:36,899
That's just my opinion.

3070
02:22:36,899 --> 02:22:41,680
At some crossroads, we'll have to decide if we want to

3071
02:22:41,680 --> 02:22:47,110
amend the charter or change the language, we've got several

3072
02:22:47,110 --> 02:22:51,930
ways to keep it lean and mean and then recommend that an

3073
02:22:51,930 --> 02:22:54,899
ordinance be written or not.

3074
02:22:54,899 --> 02:23:02,149
And then with that recommendation, we can be proscriptive

3075
02:23:02,149 --> 02:23:07,170
of what we think should be included. Item X, Y, and Z. And

3076
02:23:07,170 --> 02:23:07,899
here's some specifics that need to be addressed.

3077
02:23:07,899 --> 02:23:13,299
So we will have an opportunity in a narrative form to

3078
02:23:13,299 --> 02:23:17,760
forward to city council what we perceive as the rough

3079
02:23:17,760 --> 02:23:21,079
playing field and how it could be smoothed out in the

3080
02:23:21,079 --> 02:23:22,899
ordinance.

3081
02:23:22,899 --> 02:23:27,579
But still make that would be beyond our original charge of

3082
02:23:27,579 --> 02:23:30,899
what do we want to do with the charter.

3083
02:23:30,899 --> 02:23:37,049
So we would take care of the charter, but we have the

3084
02:23:37,049 --> 02:23:41,840
latitude to make a recommendation on the ordinance and what

3085
02:23:41,840 --> 02:23:46,530
it could contain and what problems it could solve that have

3086
02:23:46,530 --> 02:23:47,899
been brought up.

3087
02:23:47,899 --> 02:23:52,690
I want you to bring up the slide that you had right before

3088
02:23:52,690 --> 02:23:56,899
this one, what the charter or our charge is.

3089
02:23:56,899 --> 02:24:03,790
Because to me it says to revise the current provisions to

3090
02:24:03,790 --> 02:24:08,899
replace with alternative ethics provisions.

3091
02:24:08,899 --> 02:24:13,299
It seems to me like that's it to revise any other charter

3092
02:24:13,299 --> 02:24:17,899
provisions. So is that not asking us to get in the weeds?

3093
02:24:17,899 --> 02:24:22,899
It's asking us whether to decide to hear what matter.

3094
02:24:22,899 --> 02:24:24,899
Whether it means whether we should or shouldn't.

3095
02:24:24,899 --> 02:24:28,899
We decide we should, but do we want to do it?

3096
02:24:28,899 --> 02:24:32,770
So the first thing is decide do we want to have ethics

3097
02:24:32,770 --> 02:24:37,010
ordinance if we say yes we do so what's the matter and then

3098
02:24:37,010 --> 02:24:43,280
revise the provisions to replace conflict nepotism with

3099
02:24:43,280 --> 02:24:47,030
alternative ethics provisions and revise any other

3100
02:24:47,030 --> 02:24:47,899
provisions.

3101
02:24:47,899 --> 02:24:52,090
So isn't that telling us to add this language or not? I

3102
02:24:52,090 --> 02:24:55,899
mean it's a question.

3103
02:24:55,899 --> 02:25:06,899
Joe what do you see?

3104
02:25:06,899 --> 02:25:15,899
Well, I'm looking at it as the weather.

3105
02:25:15,899 --> 02:25:21,540
It doesn't say go out and change it. Weather and in what

3106
02:25:21,540 --> 02:25:26,899
manner. So it is to consider and advise weather.

3107
02:25:26,899 --> 02:25:34,489
So that's why we're trying to be deliberative about it and

3108
02:25:34,489 --> 02:25:41,930
really the charter language as we've been advised is you

3109
02:25:41,930 --> 02:25:47,510
want to be careful with it. You're not going to write

3110
02:25:47,510 --> 02:25:50,959
something that's overly burdensome that you have to come

3111
02:25:50,959 --> 02:25:52,899
back and revisit every two years.

3112
02:25:52,899 --> 02:26:01,120
We just need a platform and you know Allen's has suggested

3113
02:26:01,120 --> 02:26:03,899
that we keep the charter minimal.

3114
02:26:03,899 --> 02:26:10,049
But we can open the door for counsel. We can say you shall

3115
02:26:10,049 --> 02:26:13,899
write an ordinance and then we can.

3116
02:26:13,899 --> 02:26:19,920
Then beyond that we can make a recommendation of what an

3117
02:26:19,920 --> 02:26:24,270
ordinance can include. But the charter language from what I

3118
02:26:24,270 --> 02:26:26,450
'm hearing and what I'm reading we would keep that lean and

3119
02:26:26,450 --> 02:26:26,899
mean.

3120
02:26:26,899 --> 02:26:41,510
How I'm reading this charge from the council is to the

3121
02:26:41,510 --> 02:26:46,129
weather. We could say well we think you have everything you

3122
02:26:46,129 --> 02:26:47,510
need right now as written to operate on an ethical basis

3123
02:26:47,510 --> 02:26:48,899
and reprimand anybody that doesn't comply with that.

3124
02:26:48,899 --> 02:26:54,280
And if it's a criminal deal go to the DA. You could make

3125
02:26:54,280 --> 02:27:04,360
the case of do nothing. So that's where we are is the

3126
02:27:04,360 --> 02:27:11,100
reason for empaneling a group of diverse citizens is to

3127
02:27:11,100 --> 02:27:11,899
really hash it out.

3128
02:27:11,899 --> 02:27:17,860
Is it too little too much? Where's Goldilocks? What do we

3129
02:27:17,860 --> 02:27:20,899
think the community needs?

3130
02:27:20,899 --> 02:27:25,510
And remember whatever we recommend council has to vote in

3131
02:27:25,510 --> 02:27:29,899
the affirmative to put it on the ballot in November.

3132
02:27:29,899 --> 02:27:35,979
So it has to be something that's not on either extreme. It

3133
02:27:35,979 --> 02:27:41,670
has to be meaningful, practical, and acceptable and

3134
02:27:41,670 --> 02:27:46,899
sustainable politically with the community.

3135
02:27:46,899 --> 02:27:53,340
And so I'll digress a little bit from the ifs and ours and

3136
02:27:53,340 --> 02:27:59,940
weathers to the overview is somehow and you all have your

3137
02:27:59,940 --> 02:28:05,860
different experiences but the sense of trust in your public

3138
02:28:05,860 --> 02:28:09,899
officials has been forfeited and squandered.

3139
02:28:09,899 --> 02:28:14,170
And what we need is to develop the tool and believe me it

3140
02:28:14,170 --> 02:28:18,829
will not be instant oatmeal but this exercise to build that

3141
02:28:18,829 --> 02:28:25,040
bridge back, find a way that opens the door again to

3142
02:28:25,040 --> 02:28:30,260
transparency and expectations of behavior from your elected

3143
02:28:30,260 --> 02:28:34,209
and appointed officials and communication about it and

3144
02:28:34,209 --> 02:28:35,899
rebuild that trust.

3145
02:28:35,899 --> 02:28:40,190
Because you can write an ordinance 100 pages long with lots

3146
02:28:40,190 --> 02:28:43,750
of fine print but if you have the wrong people elected to

3147
02:28:43,750 --> 02:28:47,479
office they will find a way to circumvent whatever letter

3148
02:28:47,479 --> 02:28:48,899
of the law you have.

3149
02:28:48,899 --> 02:28:54,010
But we have to respond as a committee politically to the

3150
02:28:54,010 --> 02:28:59,659
fact that the trust has been dissipated. The connection to

3151
02:28:59,659 --> 02:29:05,000
the community that your elected officials should have is

3152
02:29:05,000 --> 02:29:07,899
right now is down in a hole.

3153
02:29:07,899 --> 02:29:12,389
And I think through this group if we come back and decide

3154
02:29:12,389 --> 02:29:16,979
that the ordinance is an answer to rebuild that trust and

3155
02:29:16,979 --> 02:29:21,899
to link that ordinance we would if we do adjust the charter

3156
02:29:21,899 --> 02:29:25,030
to say that you shall have an ordinance and it should

3157
02:29:25,030 --> 02:29:25,899
contain such and such.

3158
02:29:25,899 --> 02:29:29,530
I don't know how much we do that in an actual charter

3159
02:29:29,530 --> 02:29:33,889
language versus here's the charter language you recommend

3160
02:29:33,889 --> 02:29:38,239
and here's our recommended elements of an ordinance that we

3161
02:29:38,239 --> 02:29:41,899
think council you should very much consider.

3162
02:29:41,899 --> 02:29:46,239
So we've developed the path and I just think the community

3163
02:29:46,239 --> 02:29:50,399
is going to want more than just saying we're leaving the

3164
02:29:50,399 --> 02:29:51,899
charter alone.

3165
02:29:51,899 --> 02:29:57,760
And that's the predicament we're in. On another time,

3166
02:29:57,760 --> 02:30:02,389
another set of circumstances it could be just fine. We've

3167
02:30:02,389 --> 02:30:07,229
gone many years without forfeiting this trust or having to

3168
02:30:07,229 --> 02:30:08,899
come to the head.

3169
02:30:08,899 --> 02:30:12,850
You've had people that maybe didn't get reelected because

3170
02:30:12,850 --> 02:30:16,879
of trust issues. But anyway we're at the juncture that as a

3171
02:30:16,879 --> 02:30:20,829
committee we have to come back and deliver to the community

3172
02:30:20,829 --> 02:30:24,899
something that they can feel like they've been heard.

3173
02:30:24,899 --> 02:30:28,750
Okay, now we're going to try to be Goldilocks not too hot

3174
02:30:28,750 --> 02:30:32,120
not too cold. And that's why we have, you know, the diverse

3175
02:30:32,120 --> 02:30:35,899
group here. Where do we land?

3176
02:30:35,899 --> 02:30:39,500
So what I hear you say is it's kind of like with the, the

3177
02:30:39,500 --> 02:30:43,500
auditor, you know, we're just going to put the language is

3178
02:30:43,500 --> 02:30:46,899
says you must hire an auditor and be done with it.

3179
02:30:46,899 --> 02:30:50,920
This, we being asked to say, you must have an ethics

3180
02:30:50,920 --> 02:30:55,209
ordinance and now go do it and expect the city council who

3181
02:30:55,209 --> 02:30:59,329
doesn't want to think upon themselves to do it to begin

3182
02:30:59,329 --> 02:31:03,829
with, trust that they're going to then follow through and

3183
02:31:03,829 --> 02:31:06,899
actually come up with the ordinance that.

3184
02:31:06,899 --> 02:31:11,479
This committee recommends that they write. Ultimately, you

3185
02:31:11,479 --> 02:31:15,549
're just a charter that's emphatic about having to have an

3186
02:31:15,549 --> 02:31:19,120
ethics ordinance that a city council will get that

3187
02:31:19,120 --> 02:31:20,899
ordinance written.

3188
02:31:20,899 --> 02:31:24,579
And that's this political public process that I'm talking

3189
02:31:24,579 --> 02:31:27,899
about and that's, that's part of why we're here.

3190
02:31:27,899 --> 02:31:31,860
And we open every meeting with comments from the public. It

3191
02:31:31,860 --> 02:31:35,389
's on the website. We want to hear and we know there's a

3192
02:31:35,389 --> 02:31:38,950
disappointment. We, you know, I say we, I'm talking about

3193
02:31:38,950 --> 02:31:40,899
us collectively in this room.

3194
02:31:40,899 --> 02:31:45,290
The purpose, the upheaval that caused this to be a

3195
02:31:45,290 --> 02:31:48,899
committee to be formed into considerate.

3196
02:31:48,899 --> 02:31:52,290
It's because of disappointment in the community of the lack

3197
02:31:52,290 --> 02:31:55,620
of trust. So at the end, when we come out the other end, we

3198
02:31:55,620 --> 02:32:00,139
have to have a vehicle that helps build that trust. We may

3199
02:32:00,139 --> 02:32:00,899
not.

3200
02:32:00,899 --> 02:32:03,829
It won't be instant oatmeal, but we're going to have to

3201
02:32:03,829 --> 02:32:05,899
establish the roadmap in the path.

3202
02:32:05,899 --> 02:32:09,239
And that's how I'm looking at it. I hope that makes if we

3203
02:32:09,239 --> 02:32:13,899
all look at it that way. We're making use of our time.

3204
02:32:13,899 --> 02:32:19,780
>> Joe, may I say one more thing? >> Yeah, sure. >> Because

3205
02:32:19,780 --> 02:32:21,600
I'm still wrestling with, you know, are we really dealing

3206
02:32:21,600 --> 02:32:23,309
with an issue of content or are we dealing with an issue of

3207
02:32:23,309 --> 02:32:23,899
mechanics?

3208
02:32:23,899 --> 02:32:28,409
Is the issue that the law has written doesn't do enough to

3209
02:32:28,409 --> 02:32:31,930
address ethics or is it that there is a certain kind of

3210
02:32:31,930 --> 02:32:35,299
corporate at times disregard for them and there's no

3211
02:32:35,299 --> 02:32:37,899
mechanism to go to take that on?

3212
02:32:37,899 --> 02:32:41,979
I eat an independent body of city council. And then the

3213
02:32:41,979 --> 02:32:45,399
question is if there weren't a separate, if that were

3214
02:32:45,399 --> 02:32:48,200
satisfied, what we have to be enough in that context or are

3215
02:32:48,200 --> 02:32:50,899
there still other things we need to do in the law?

3216
02:32:50,899 --> 02:32:54,299
Is it about mechanics and process or is it about the

3217
02:32:54,299 --> 02:32:56,899
content of whatever we put in here?

3218
02:32:56,899 --> 02:33:00,860
>> I would say that thoroughly as a player, I don't think

3219
02:33:00,860 --> 02:33:04,899
it's very clear as to what these codes actually come.

3220
02:33:04,899 --> 02:33:08,469
I mean, that was the reason for a lot of my questions on 17

3221
02:33:08,469 --> 02:33:11,879
1. There's no sense to recreate something that's already

3222
02:33:11,879 --> 02:33:13,899
there if it already has the scope.

3223
02:33:13,899 --> 02:33:18,770
I just don't feel like people understand the scope and how

3224
02:33:18,770 --> 02:33:21,899
much it covers a lot of confusion.

3225
02:33:21,899 --> 02:33:25,899
You know, we need this, but in fact, it's covered already.

3226
02:33:25,899 --> 02:33:27,899
>> And there was one word that you used to enable.

3227
02:33:27,899 --> 02:33:32,440
I would just like to add to the extent that it's possible,

3228
02:33:32,440 --> 02:33:35,379
it seems to me whatever we do, if there can be a context

3229
02:33:35,379 --> 02:33:37,889
that actually makes it easier and more comfortable for

3230
02:33:37,889 --> 02:33:41,500
people to perform public service because they now have a

3231
02:33:41,500 --> 02:33:45,780
context in a way rather than us being this constant

3232
02:33:45,780 --> 02:33:46,899
policing.

3233
02:33:46,899 --> 02:33:51,110
You know, laws wouldn't be needed if everybody did what

3234
02:33:51,110 --> 02:33:55,489
they're supposed to, but to the extent that you can infuse

3235
02:33:55,489 --> 02:33:59,899
this whole process with that, I think it would just.

3236
02:33:59,899 --> 02:34:04,379
You know, there's ways of thinking about a problem and the

3237
02:34:04,379 --> 02:34:08,489
way you think about it leads you to the kind of solution

3238
02:34:08,489 --> 02:34:12,899
you have and that would be my observation about that.

3239
02:34:12,899 --> 02:34:23,940
>> Jim? >> Well, my personal preference would be to write

3240
02:34:23,940 --> 02:34:30,360
the leanest and cleanest charter provision we could and

3241
02:34:30,360 --> 02:34:36,530
still achieve our goal, which might be simply to propose

3242
02:34:36,530 --> 02:34:41,899
that we remove those existing provisions in article 14

3243
02:34:41,899 --> 02:34:46,569
because they're already there and they're going to be there

3244
02:34:46,569 --> 02:34:51,049
regardless because we're simply saying we're following

3245
02:34:51,049 --> 02:34:51,899
state law.

3246
02:34:51,899 --> 02:34:58,209
And put a provision in the charter that says there shall be

3247
02:34:58,209 --> 02:35:02,899
establishment of an ethics ordinance.

3248
02:35:02,899 --> 02:35:06,899
We could even make it a little bit more explicit.

3249
02:35:06,899 --> 02:35:16,020
Kind of like that solution, but I think under the present

3250
02:35:16,020 --> 02:35:22,389
climate in Denton that we probably should be very careful

3251
02:35:22,389 --> 02:35:27,420
about taking that approach because I'm not sure the voters

3252
02:35:27,420 --> 02:35:31,989
in Denton would want us to take action that removes those

3253
02:35:31,989 --> 02:35:32,899
provisions.

3254
02:35:32,899 --> 02:35:37,079
I think people will look upon that rather skeptically and

3255
02:35:37,079 --> 02:35:41,530
think that we're actually watering down our existing system

3256
02:35:41,530 --> 02:35:44,899
and I think that might be a bit of a problem.

3257
02:35:44,899 --> 02:35:52,209
So I'm leaning toward an idea that would be leaving those

3258
02:35:52,209 --> 02:36:00,010
provisions intact and simply adding a provision that there

3259
02:36:00,010 --> 02:36:03,899
shall be an ethics ordinance.

3260
02:36:03,899 --> 02:36:08,870
That will be the responsibility of the council to establish

3261
02:36:08,870 --> 02:36:13,899
ethics provisions or an ethics ordinance and let that be.

3262
02:36:13,899 --> 02:36:18,590
I really don't think we need to do anything if we just

3263
02:36:18,590 --> 02:36:23,829
simply said to the council that it's the consensus of this

3264
02:36:23,829 --> 02:36:29,899
committee that there really needs to be an ethics ordinance

3265
02:36:29,899 --> 02:36:29,899
.

3266
02:36:29,899 --> 02:36:34,020
And we've studied and reviewed and we don't believe there's

3267
02:36:34,020 --> 02:36:38,129
anything in the existing charter that prevents it, then we

3268
02:36:38,129 --> 02:36:42,090
could say just do it and give them a little political cover

3269
02:36:42,090 --> 02:36:45,899
for the purpose of moving forward on that agenda.

3270
02:36:45,899 --> 02:36:48,899
That might actually be the simplest solution.

3271
02:36:48,899 --> 02:36:52,440
But as much as I would like to clean it up and take that

3272
02:36:52,440 --> 02:36:56,600
state law out of our city charter, I'm really nervous about

3273
02:36:56,600 --> 02:37:00,319
doing that because I don't want the voters of Denton to

3274
02:37:00,319 --> 02:37:04,290
think that we're trying to water it down further than it is

3275
02:37:04,290 --> 02:37:04,899
.

3276
02:37:04,899 --> 02:37:07,899
That's my concern.

3277
02:37:07,899 --> 02:37:14,829
The political sensitivities, the community political sensit

3278
02:37:14,829 --> 02:37:19,899
ivities, is such a high, highly elevated.

3279
02:37:19,899 --> 02:37:24,219
And going along with that thought, just carrying that one

3280
02:37:24,219 --> 02:37:27,899
step, it might make some sense politically.

3281
02:37:27,899 --> 02:37:31,540
We've already heard that there's nothing prohibiting this

3282
02:37:31,540 --> 02:37:34,829
council right now from dealing with this whole ethics

3283
02:37:34,829 --> 02:37:37,899
matter in ordinance, what we have right now.

3284
02:37:37,899 --> 02:37:43,500
Now might it be possible for this committee to tell this

3285
02:37:43,500 --> 02:37:47,370
city council, the way has been cleared for you to get into

3286
02:37:47,370 --> 02:37:47,899
this.

3287
02:37:47,899 --> 02:37:50,620
We want to know right now what your vision is, what you see

3288
02:37:50,620 --> 02:37:51,899
in terms of 171.

3289
02:37:51,899 --> 02:37:54,159
Do you see internal enforcement by an ethics review

3290
02:37:54,159 --> 02:37:54,899
commission?

3291
02:37:54,899 --> 02:37:56,899
How do you feel about disclosure?

3292
02:37:56,899 --> 02:38:00,319
How do you feel about, and at least get that out there, and

3293
02:38:00,319 --> 02:38:07,270
it might be possible to back into this charter amendment at

3294
02:38:07,270 --> 02:38:11,389
some subsequent date after the council has at least given

3295
02:38:11,389 --> 02:38:14,899
some idea of where they want to go with this.

3296
02:38:14,899 --> 02:38:20,379
Because it sounds like we mentioned whether or not we do

3297
02:38:20,379 --> 02:38:25,489
this first or let the council at least express their

3298
02:38:25,489 --> 02:38:26,899
feelings. We haven't had much direction from the council at

3299
02:38:26,899 --> 02:38:26,899
this point.

3300
02:38:26,899 --> 02:38:30,469
We really don't know what their feelings are other than

3301
02:38:30,469 --> 02:38:34,180
there is some sense of public distrust or lack of trust and

3302
02:38:34,180 --> 02:38:35,899
they want to do more.

3303
02:38:35,899 --> 02:38:39,120
Well, we've heard that we really don't need to amend this

3304
02:38:39,120 --> 02:38:41,899
charter for them to at least go to work on it.

3305
02:38:41,899 --> 02:38:46,629
So that's just a thought. Rather than us box them in right

3306
02:38:46,629 --> 02:38:51,899
now with a single sentence or something that...

3307
02:38:51,899 --> 02:38:54,899
City council shall adopt an ethics...

3308
02:38:54,899 --> 02:38:56,899
It could be redone within two years.

3309
02:38:56,899 --> 02:39:00,399
There are ordinance they can change, but the charter would

3310
02:39:00,399 --> 02:39:00,899
stay.

3311
02:39:00,899 --> 02:39:05,200
The charter would, it's like the city auditor, the charter

3312
02:39:05,200 --> 02:39:06,899
would say you shall.

3313
02:39:06,899 --> 02:39:08,899
Right.

3314
02:39:08,899 --> 02:39:11,870
And that was the question that you've been battling with

3315
02:39:11,870 --> 02:39:14,899
some folks for several months is can you, can't you?

3316
02:39:14,899 --> 02:39:21,899
And so we say you shall and that takes care of that.

3317
02:39:21,899 --> 02:39:22,899
Yeah Marty.

3318
02:39:22,899 --> 02:39:25,899
So here they can do it right now. If we leave it alone,

3319
02:39:25,899 --> 02:39:28,700
they can still go out and do that and we can make some

3320
02:39:28,700 --> 02:39:29,899
recommendations to do that.

3321
02:39:29,899 --> 02:39:34,379
And what's in there, what you're maybe suggesting is that

3322
02:39:34,379 --> 02:39:38,899
if we add you shall and they have to forever and ever amen,

3323
02:39:38,899 --> 02:39:41,329
put an ordinance, which can change over time depending on

3324
02:39:41,329 --> 02:39:41,899
who's in council.

3325
02:39:41,899 --> 02:39:46,219
But the provision is there forever unless they change the

3326
02:39:46,219 --> 02:39:46,899
charter.

3327
02:39:46,899 --> 02:39:53,389
And I don't want to repeat myself, but you're, that's right

3328
02:39:53,389 --> 02:39:55,899
. And you're right David that they could do it now.

3329
02:39:55,899 --> 02:39:59,969
But the community is looking for us to be demonstrative

3330
02:39:59,969 --> 02:40:02,899
that you shall write the ordinance.

3331
02:40:02,899 --> 02:40:08,329
So also give the council the opportunity. See this last

3332
02:40:08,329 --> 02:40:09,899
sentence here.

3333
02:40:09,899 --> 02:40:14,280
City charter provisions only now as I read that the two

3334
02:40:14,280 --> 02:40:19,149
resolutions right now, 06 and 09 are out of bounds for us

3335
02:40:19,149 --> 02:40:19,899
right now.

3336
02:40:19,899 --> 02:40:23,100
So we're only dealing with these charter provisions. So

3337
02:40:23,100 --> 02:40:26,319
whether or not we think the current ethics policy makes any

3338
02:40:26,319 --> 02:40:29,899
sense or whether or not we think the city council should

3339
02:40:29,899 --> 02:40:33,389
have the ability to, you know, police their own ethical

3340
02:40:33,389 --> 02:40:33,899
matters.

3341
02:40:33,899 --> 02:40:37,149
That's out of our hands right now. But it would, it would

3342
02:40:37,149 --> 02:40:40,219
put that right back into the hands of the city council to

3343
02:40:40,219 --> 02:40:40,899
decide.

3344
02:40:40,899 --> 02:40:43,979
And so it all kind of takes shape with the city council

3345
02:40:43,979 --> 02:40:47,409
where we could not do that right now other than say, you've

3346
02:40:47,409 --> 02:40:50,629
already got the authority you need right now to write an

3347
02:40:50,629 --> 02:40:52,899
ethics ordinance, get after it.

3348
02:40:52,899 --> 02:40:57,219
But we could say in addition, but after weeks of

3349
02:40:57,219 --> 02:41:02,510
reflections and thought about this ethics question, the

3350
02:41:02,510 --> 02:41:07,280
Charter Review Committee would recommend that that

3351
02:41:07,280 --> 02:41:12,719
ordinance include at least these provisions, which would

3352
02:41:12,719 --> 02:41:16,899
give the council a little bit of direction from us.

3353
02:41:16,899 --> 02:41:22,899
And it wouldn't really be beyond our charge, I don't think.

3354
02:41:22,899 --> 02:41:26,209
Our charge is to deal with the charter, but we're helping

3355
02:41:26,209 --> 02:41:29,979
them deal with the charter and then giving them some

3356
02:41:29,979 --> 02:41:34,370
clarification about we think these things really need to be

3357
02:41:34,370 --> 02:41:35,899
in an ordinance.

3358
02:41:35,899 --> 02:41:39,149
We can add one sentence to the charter language to go in

3359
02:41:39,149 --> 02:41:42,850
front of the voters, you will have an ethics ordinance, and

3360
02:41:42,850 --> 02:41:46,399
then we can in correspondence, part of our report here for

3361
02:41:46,399 --> 02:41:49,590
we recommend that the minimum that is included in the

3362
02:41:49,590 --> 02:41:54,899
ethics ordinance, including a board to review to take

3363
02:41:54,899 --> 02:41:56,899
complaints because council.

3364
02:41:56,899 --> 02:42:01,340
It's on its face to say council is going to receive

3365
02:42:01,340 --> 02:42:05,899
complaints of account fellow council member.

3366
02:42:05,899 --> 02:42:10,899
So we have to make those recommendations that have a board.

3367
02:42:10,899 --> 02:42:24,620
Recommendations to make recommendations to change the

3368
02:42:24,620 --> 02:42:27,899
ordinance to.

3369
02:42:27,899 --> 02:42:44,899
By by a new ordinance it's gonna.

3370
02:42:44,899 --> 02:42:49,090
Okay, and the community wants to know that this group

3371
02:42:49,090 --> 02:42:53,879
representing the whole community you're not representing a

3372
02:42:53,879 --> 02:42:58,899
council member any longer you're representing community.

3373
02:42:58,899 --> 02:42:59,899
Okay.

3374
02:42:59,899 --> 02:43:05,159
The community wants from what I understanding in

3375
02:43:05,159 --> 02:43:11,450
conversation and is they want a demonstration that ethics

3376
02:43:11,450 --> 02:43:17,899
is going to be put back in first place is being important.

3377
02:43:17,899 --> 02:43:23,200
So, we can do that with adding the one sentence, and then

3378
02:43:23,200 --> 02:43:28,190
making recommendations of what that ordinance at the

3379
02:43:28,190 --> 02:43:30,899
minimum should contain. That's what the community is

3380
02:43:30,899 --> 02:43:30,899
looking for us to make that statement.

3381
02:43:30,899 --> 02:43:35,399
Now, will an ordinance be subject to change every few years

3382
02:43:35,399 --> 02:43:39,709
is experience dictates or you find out this, this clause

3383
02:43:39,709 --> 02:43:43,899
isn't working or we forgot about X and we got to add it.

3384
02:43:43,899 --> 02:43:48,600
Yeah, that that'll be the dynamics, but the charter, we can

3385
02:43:48,600 --> 02:43:52,899
add a sentence or keep it neat and tidy, it'll stand.

3386
02:43:52,899 --> 02:43:55,899
So that that's we don't have to decide that tonight we're.

3387
02:43:55,899 --> 02:43:59,899
We want to use Allen's experience of in across the state.

3388
02:43:59,899 --> 02:44:01,899
This is what he deals with.

3389
02:44:01,899 --> 02:44:13,989
And, and, but I just, we have to really be very honest. It

3390
02:44:13,989 --> 02:44:16,180
's an environment that we need to address, and it has to be

3391
02:44:16,180 --> 02:44:18,370
an environment that people, when they come to serve they

3392
02:44:18,370 --> 02:44:21,899
want to be stewards for the public, and they want to enjoy

3393
02:44:21,899 --> 02:44:22,899
the public trust.

3394
02:44:22,899 --> 02:44:28,030
Now that is something that's been squandered, and to help

3395
02:44:28,030 --> 02:44:31,899
rebuild it, this is part of our process.

3396
02:44:31,899 --> 02:44:33,899
Yes, go ahead Bob.

3397
02:44:33,899 --> 02:44:40,899
Thanks, this is enormously helpful, very insightful.

3398
02:44:40,899 --> 02:44:43,989
I, in principle I would agree with you totally that

3399
02:44:43,989 --> 02:44:47,790
fundamental law should be about the fundamentals, you know,

3400
02:44:47,790 --> 02:44:51,540
that our constitution should be only about constitutional,

3401
02:44:51,540 --> 02:44:55,090
about major big picture procedural institutional sort of

3402
02:44:55,090 --> 02:44:55,899
thing.

3403
02:44:55,899 --> 02:44:58,899
So that's absolutely true.

3404
02:44:58,899 --> 02:45:02,899
But I'm thinking here all this conversation and I mean we,

3405
02:45:02,899 --> 02:45:06,899
our problem is more grievous than that.

3406
02:45:06,899 --> 02:45:11,329
And does it, how serious is our problem here? I mean how

3407
02:45:11,329 --> 02:45:15,209
deeply seated is this division, it is the distrust within

3408
02:45:15,209 --> 02:45:16,899
our community.

3409
02:45:16,899 --> 02:45:22,290
And in part we've enjoyed many, many decades of trustworthy

3410
02:45:22,290 --> 02:45:25,899
leadership, and I still think we do.

3411
02:45:25,899 --> 02:45:28,879
I mean at heart I still think our political leaders are

3412
02:45:28,879 --> 02:45:29,899
trustworthy.

3413
02:45:29,899 --> 02:45:33,989
But there's a sense that, and Joe you said it very well,

3414
02:45:33,989 --> 02:45:36,899
that trust has been breached here.

3415
02:45:36,899 --> 02:45:40,760
And so we're grappling with how do we restore the good old

3416
02:45:40,760 --> 02:45:43,899
days in that sense where we had that trust.

3417
02:45:43,899 --> 02:45:47,379
And in past I think our political leaders, elected leaders,

3418
02:45:47,379 --> 02:45:52,579
local, our city leaders were people, men and women of good

3419
02:45:52,579 --> 02:45:52,899
faith.

3420
02:45:52,899 --> 02:45:56,440
And we could entrust in them without much or probably

3421
02:45:56,440 --> 02:46:00,219
hardly any ethics ordinance or ethics standard to guide

3422
02:46:00,219 --> 02:46:00,899
them.

3423
02:46:00,899 --> 02:46:05,899
Their good judgment led them to make good decisions.

3424
02:46:05,899 --> 02:46:10,899
But now we've experienced, you know, breaches in that.

3425
02:46:10,899 --> 02:46:20,149
And so how do we restore that goodness that we had when we

3426
02:46:20,149 --> 02:46:21,899
're now just a little bit gun shy

3427
02:46:21,899 --> 02:46:26,260
that people can't be trusted on their own initiative to do

3428
02:46:26,260 --> 02:46:28,899
always what is the right thing.

3429
02:46:28,899 --> 02:46:31,899
However, we as a community see that as the right thing.

3430
02:46:31,899 --> 02:46:35,899
I've sort of come full circle on this.

3431
02:46:35,899 --> 02:46:42,770
My sense is that I think this need, if we want to restore

3432
02:46:42,770 --> 02:46:44,899
our community's trust,

3433
02:46:44,899 --> 02:46:49,260
they have to see it as not just an ordinance level thing,

3434
02:46:49,260 --> 02:46:54,899
but as a fundamental law thing, as a charter thing.

3435
02:46:54,899 --> 02:46:58,979
And though I dislike having those sort of details in a

3436
02:46:58,979 --> 02:47:04,889
charter, the gravity of the situation may warrant us doing

3437
02:47:04,889 --> 02:47:04,899
that.

3438
02:47:04,899 --> 02:47:09,729
Really creating in the charter the sort of general

3439
02:47:09,729 --> 02:47:15,479
principles that we expect our elected officials and career

3440
02:47:15,479 --> 02:47:17,899
officials to follow.

3441
02:47:17,899 --> 02:47:27,889
>> I would say that I don't think it's appropriate for us

3442
02:47:27,889 --> 02:47:38,899
to do something as important as a foundational document. As

3443
02:47:38,899 --> 02:47:38,899
you know, fat facts make fat wall.

3444
02:47:38,899 --> 02:47:44,540
And I think maybe some general policy recommendations,

3445
02:47:44,540 --> 02:47:48,700
please consider these things. Maybe some findings that we

3446
02:47:48,700 --> 02:47:50,899
found, research to go with it, but in a report.

3447
02:47:50,899 --> 02:47:55,010
But I mean, to the degree that we can keep our regulatory

3448
02:47:55,010 --> 02:47:57,899
framework as minimal as possible.

3449
02:47:57,899 --> 02:48:00,200
I don't think there was an ever-incorporated day when

3450
02:48:00,200 --> 02:48:02,899
people really trusted government, especially in Texas.

3451
02:48:02,899 --> 02:48:08,290
But anyway, I'd just like to say I don't think we should

3452
02:48:08,290 --> 02:48:14,020
cowl too much to the concerns of the rabble-rousing public

3453
02:48:14,020 --> 02:48:15,899
at this point.

3454
02:48:15,899 --> 02:48:19,629
You know, people are just like mad all the time. I'd rather

3455
02:48:19,629 --> 02:48:23,020
just make a good, wise decision and then stick with it, try

3456
02:48:23,020 --> 02:48:23,899
and educate the public.

3457
02:48:23,899 --> 02:48:29,200
If they don't like it, you know, they can elect somebody

3458
02:48:29,200 --> 02:48:33,899
else next time and they can be on the committee.

3459
02:48:33,899 --> 02:48:39,799
>> From the standpoint of the state guidelines versus what

3460
02:48:39,799 --> 02:48:43,899
we have currently, where is the strength?

3461
02:48:43,899 --> 02:48:48,280
Is it stronger, more effective in the state than we have or

3462
02:48:48,280 --> 02:48:52,049
are we just simply touching on the part of it or is it

3463
02:48:52,049 --> 02:48:55,899
actually just as strong and comparable to what the state

3464
02:48:55,899 --> 02:49:00,899
currently got on ethical standards and guidelines?

3465
02:49:00,899 --> 02:49:05,659
>> Generally speaking, are we okay or should we bump up to

3466
02:49:05,659 --> 02:49:10,299
the state and say to answer those two questions, didn't

3467
02:49:10,299 --> 02:49:14,299
maybe we need to toughen up our guidelines and our

3468
02:49:14,299 --> 02:49:19,010
standards for ethical considerations by implementing a

3469
02:49:19,010 --> 02:49:23,899
stronger or more robust guidelines.

3470
02:49:23,899 --> 02:49:29,190
And you shall create, counsel, you shall create an

3471
02:49:29,190 --> 02:49:32,899
ordinance to give effect to that.

3472
02:49:32,899 --> 02:49:35,879
And secondly, we also want somebody that's going to be

3473
02:49:35,879 --> 02:49:39,049
overseeing this thing instead of just simply leaving it to

3474
02:49:39,049 --> 02:49:41,899
implement the trust, to answer your question.

3475
02:49:41,899 --> 02:49:46,709
So again, generally speaking, are we weaker or are we

3476
02:49:46,709 --> 02:49:47,899
stronger?

3477
02:49:47,899 --> 02:49:52,260
>> I think what you have on the books right now in Denton

3478
02:49:52,260 --> 02:49:55,899
is weaker than what is on the state rules.

3479
02:49:55,899 --> 02:49:59,940
I think the state rules for the most part addressed what

3480
02:49:59,940 --> 02:50:03,899
most people are concerned about most of the time.

3481
02:50:03,899 --> 02:50:06,760
I think the furor comes up because I think someone over

3482
02:50:06,760 --> 02:50:09,899
here mentioned maybe the public is not really educated.

3483
02:50:09,899 --> 02:50:13,110
Maybe even the counsel may not be educated on what the

3484
02:50:13,110 --> 02:50:15,899
state rules really are and what they mean.

3485
02:50:15,899 --> 02:50:19,110
I think you may have, I'm not sure there's an enforcement

3486
02:50:19,110 --> 02:50:19,899
problem.

3487
02:50:19,899 --> 02:50:24,520
Hypothetically, imagine whoever you think in your mind is

3488
02:50:24,520 --> 02:50:28,899
the average ordinary reasonable citizen of Denton.

3489
02:50:28,899 --> 02:50:32,540
Is that person more likely or less likely to walk into the

3490
02:50:32,540 --> 02:50:36,139
DA's office and file a complaint or walk into the city

3491
02:50:36,139 --> 02:50:39,899
secretary's office and file an ethics complaint?

3492
02:50:39,899 --> 02:50:43,959
Sometimes it's a matter of enforcement, sometimes it's a

3493
02:50:43,959 --> 02:50:45,899
matter of convenience.

3494
02:50:45,899 --> 02:50:48,600
And I'm your outside legal counsel from Austin, so I

3495
02:50:48,600 --> 02:50:50,899
certainly don't know the politics of it.

3496
02:50:50,899 --> 02:50:52,899
>> I'd like to expand on that question.

3497
02:50:52,899 --> 02:50:59,229
So if we phrase our response to the council saying you

3498
02:50:59,229 --> 02:51:05,899
shall implement an ordinance and you shall create that

3499
02:51:05,899 --> 02:51:08,899
overseeing ability somehow or another.

3500
02:51:08,899 --> 02:51:10,899
You figure it out.

3501
02:51:10,899 --> 02:51:14,850
We are basically telling the population of Denton that we

3502
02:51:14,850 --> 02:51:18,889
want this to be placed in a stronger fashion than it is

3503
02:51:18,889 --> 02:51:22,899
right now, even though it's basically somewhat the same.

3504
02:51:22,899 --> 02:51:25,899
You said Jim, I mean, we can leave it there.

3505
02:51:25,899 --> 02:51:27,899
We're just going to make it stronger.

3506
02:51:27,899 --> 02:51:30,959
That's phrasing, that's language, and I think that'd be

3507
02:51:30,959 --> 02:51:31,899
understood.

3508
02:51:31,899 --> 02:51:34,899
But that's my opinion.

3509
02:51:34,899 --> 02:51:35,899
>> Okay.

3510
02:51:35,899 --> 02:51:37,899
Thank you, Horace.

3511
02:51:37,899 --> 02:51:38,899
It's almost 9 o'clock.

3512
02:51:38,899 --> 02:51:40,899
This is our target.

3513
02:51:40,899 --> 02:51:42,899
Here's what I'm going to suggest.

3514
02:51:42,899 --> 02:51:45,899
Now, Allen works for this committee.

3515
02:51:45,899 --> 02:51:48,899
Brian gets to pay for it, so.

3516
02:51:48,899 --> 02:51:50,899
Anyway.

3517
02:51:50,899 --> 02:51:53,899
You're still good.

3518
02:51:53,899 --> 02:51:55,899
You're still good.

3519
02:51:55,899 --> 02:51:56,899
Anyway.

3520
02:51:56,899 --> 02:52:00,899
No, this has been very helpful discussion.

3521
02:52:00,899 --> 02:52:04,139
And I'm going to suggest that if we have any written

3522
02:52:04,139 --> 02:52:07,899
questions following up the meeting, follow them in.

3523
02:52:07,899 --> 02:52:09,899
We'll get them to Allen.

3524
02:52:09,899 --> 02:52:12,860
If we find that we would like to have more conversation, I

3525
02:52:12,860 --> 02:52:14,899
don't think it would be a three hour.

3526
02:52:14,899 --> 02:52:18,329
We could possibly do a conference call if we prearrange

3527
02:52:18,329 --> 02:52:21,680
with Allen, you know, a half hour or hour on the phone

3528
02:52:21,680 --> 02:52:24,899
since we've got names and faces and a comfort level.

3529
02:52:24,899 --> 02:52:30,239
If that becomes something that we desire to do, but so I'm

3530
02:52:30,239 --> 02:52:35,729
saying that because I really do want to pinch this off at 9

3531
02:52:35,729 --> 02:52:36,899
o'clock.

3532
02:52:36,899 --> 02:52:40,049
But does it mean we won't have access to Allen one way or

3533
02:52:40,049 --> 02:52:42,899
the other through emails or conference call?

3534
02:52:42,899 --> 02:52:46,069
Or if we think we want him to come up for another full

3535
02:52:46,069 --> 02:52:47,899
meeting, we can do that.

3536
02:52:47,899 --> 02:52:50,899
That's up to us and Allen's schedule.

3537
02:52:50,899 --> 02:52:54,899
So that I'm going to close this item out.

3538
02:52:54,899 --> 02:52:58,549
And before we leave, we've got to talk about the dates for

3539
02:52:58,549 --> 02:52:59,899
the next meeting.

3540
02:52:59,899 --> 02:53:02,899
But Allen, I certainly appreciate your driving up.

3541
02:53:02,899 --> 02:53:07,899
And it's been so helpful to us and great resource.

3542
02:53:07,899 --> 02:53:11,899
Jim, Dave, Billy, good selection.

3543
02:53:11,899 --> 02:53:13,899
So we thank you so much.

3544
02:53:13,899 --> 02:53:14,899
Thank you.

3545
02:53:14,899 --> 02:53:15,899
Thank you.

3546
02:53:15,899 --> 02:53:20,899
Thank you.

3547
02:53:20,899 --> 02:53:24,899
Our next meeting would normally be on the 15th.

3548
02:53:24,899 --> 02:53:27,899
Now, spring breakers.

3549
02:53:27,899 --> 02:53:30,899
Who's going to Fort Lauderdale?

3550
02:53:30,899 --> 02:53:35,899
Bob Lamb.

3551
02:53:35,899 --> 02:53:41,899
How many will not be available over the 15th?

3552
02:53:41,899 --> 02:53:44,899
Fagin, will you be available over the 15th?

3553
02:53:44,899 --> 02:53:49,899
During the staycation.

3554
02:53:49,899 --> 02:53:51,899
Anyway, show me hands again.

3555
02:53:51,899 --> 02:53:52,899
We got four.

3556
02:53:52,899 --> 02:53:56,899
One, two, three.

3557
02:53:56,899 --> 02:54:00,899
Four will not be available.

3558
02:54:00,899 --> 02:54:10,770
So we can skip the 15th meeting and go to the beginning of

3559
02:54:10,770 --> 02:54:11,899
the next month.

3560
02:54:11,899 --> 02:54:16,899
The rest of us can make the 15th.

3561
02:54:16,899 --> 02:54:20,899
Is 20 second work for everybody?

3562
02:54:20,899 --> 02:54:21,899
No.

3563
02:54:21,899 --> 02:54:24,899
No.

3564
02:54:24,899 --> 02:54:26,899
I thought there was only four of them.

3565
02:54:26,899 --> 02:54:28,899
There's still folks here.

3566
02:54:28,899 --> 02:54:29,899
Right.

3567
02:54:29,899 --> 02:54:31,899
So the minutes are well taken.

3568
02:54:31,899 --> 02:54:34,899
I can feel like I can call that phone in.

3569
02:54:34,899 --> 02:54:37,379
And if I have comments, I can email them back in with a

3570
02:54:37,379 --> 02:54:37,899
group.

3571
02:54:37,899 --> 02:54:41,120
So that's not enough people in my opinion to call out the

3572
02:54:41,120 --> 02:54:41,899
meeting.

3573
02:54:41,899 --> 02:54:42,899
I agree.

3574
02:54:42,899 --> 02:54:44,899
We all ramp it up.

3575
02:54:44,899 --> 02:54:45,899
I agree with you.

3576
02:54:45,899 --> 02:54:54,899
So let's go ahead and we're meeting the 15th or 6 o'clock.

3577
02:54:54,899 --> 02:54:55,899
All right.

3578
02:54:55,899 --> 02:54:56,899
We're going to adjourn.

3579
02:54:56,899 --> 02:54:57,899
Thank you very much, everybody.

3580
02:55:07,899 --> 02:55:08,899
Thank you.