Aug 21, 2018 City Council on 2018-08-21 12:00 PM

Welcome everyone. We do have a quorum present so I will call this work session to order on August 21st at 1203 p.m. The first item on the agenda is citizens comments on consent agenda items. Do we have any blue cards ? Okay we have nothing there. We'll move on to item two, request for clarification of agenda items listed on the agenda. Any Councilmember for Ricks? I would like to request to have items B and G pulled for a short presentation. I have a few questions. On I, we are correcting a mistake and anytime I see these I would just like a short explanation on the process and what happened. It's my understanding that the conditions that were placed in the ordinance did not match the conditions that the council approved on the night of the meeting. This is simply to make sure that what you all adopted ends up in the ordinance. It's just we're just replacing some of the conditions. Okay and on Q is this for the right-of-way maintenance or a park supplement? It is right-of-way maintenance, not parks. We had parks contract previously so this is just right-of-way. And I have a question about S. We had an engineering presentation recently and I believe the professional service agreement listed here for Kimley-Horn, that company was mentioned as not wanting to do engineer work for us anymore. So I'm just wondering if this is separate from that or if you could just explain. Todd, as the city engineer. So the engineer still wants to do work for the city. They just don't want to be in a capacity that either puts us in a potential scenario that would be a conflict of interest nor do they want to be in that scenario. We've taken extraordinary steps to make sure we don't get there but it is cumbersome on staff time. Now that being the case they've helped us with our backlog on development review projects and as we transition to a new consultant who is on-site taking stock of things today, this contract just helps us extend what we've been doing to clear the backlog to keep continuity with development projects until the new consultant comes in then they will be handing that off. Okay but the issue mentioned in the previous presentation isn't necessarily a big issue is because that's been taken care of. Correct. Okay it's making sure. Okay. Thank you. Councilmember Armitage. I had wanted to pull B for a brief presentation as well. So councilmember Briggs already covered that and then consent agenda item A. I just wanted to pull that for a brief presentation and an explanation of the confidentiality agreement. I will do that whenever there's a confidential ity agreement that comes up just to show the public that we're having that discussion and not repr stamping it. Councilmember Melton. For item R, consent agenda item R, just because of the amount of money involved I would like to understand what change that requires the additional authorization and how it's anticipated that it will be funded and I'm happy to hear the explanation now or you know or have a presentation later whichever. Sorry I forgot to introduce myself earlier. Cass ie Ogden, director of procurement and compliance. So this contract was extended through December 18th but we when when the contract was extended we didn't ask for additional funding so we are now coming back and asking for additional funding through December until we can go out for a new solicitation and award a new contract and the primary users of this contract are parks, solid waste, traffic who do budget for these expenses annually and I can provide those budgets and the current budget for parks is 60,000 solid waste 345,000 and traffic is 20,000. Budget for this kind of expenditure you mean? Correct. Okay thank you. Anything else? Any other questions on the agenda? If not we will move on to our work session reports. The first item 3a, the presentation by George Morrow, DME general manager recognizing the outstanding accomplishments of Denton Municipal Electric lineman rodeo team at the 2018 Texas lineman rodeo . Well good afternoon mayor Pro Tem city council George Morrow general manager of DME. It's my pleasure and I want to thank you for having me here to let you meet our lineman rodeo team for 2018. Very great event that allows us to focus on technical proficiency and safety. Most if not all of the electric utilities around the state do attend that and I'm really going to introduce Brad Watts. Brad is our electrical distribution superintendent probably has a fancier title than that but and he he spearheaded our group at the rodeo and he wants to go through that and give you some information. Good afternoon mayor Pro Tem council Brad Watts operation maintenance line superintendent and as George said we're very proud of these guys and I would like to introduce them we'll go ahead and bring them in. They did a fantastic job I mean they brought home several awards it was a very tough competition there was 49 total journeyman teams there was a hundred and fourteen apprentices and all these teams and apprentices represent different utilities across the state from investor owned to municipal to contractor and then cooperative and it was the weekend of July 21st it's very hot down there I think somebody recorded it was somewhere between 112 114 degrees and when these guys were competing they're in full full attire all the rubber personal protective equipment hard hats long sleeves FR shirts and they did a great job. I'll start with the rodeo coordinator and this is a guy that oversees the teams make sure the guys you know are out there practicing doing needing whatever tools they need to perform these events and that was rodeo coordinators Lanny Amix and then I'll start with the journeyman team and then I'll give the rewards the first journeyman team was Clinton Peake Cody Snyder and Blake Smith and I don't think Blake could make it they were right in the middle of doing some switching and they couldn't couldn't get done fast enough to get up here but this team took second place in the journeyman mystery event number two and when they're preparing for these rodeos some of the rodeos will tell you what the events are some of them won't they'll just say it's a mystery event you when you get down there we're just gonna surprise you and see how good a job you do at doing that and this team did an outstanding job they were there the second fastest time over the whole event and they took second place in the journeyman mystery event number two and that's that's quite an honor and then journeyman team number two was Tyler Rank Garrett Dillard and I think Garrett's caught working also and then Curtis Espadaugh and this team took second place overall out of all the event the teams do five events and they're graded on all five events on safety performance whether they drop things or misused tools I mean they're really judging them real hard and this team took second place overall municipal journeyman teams so they did a fantastic job our apprentices are Jordan Padrone Gustavo Soto Mitch Hassel and Jack Gray I think Mitch is the only ones not here Mitch is on and Gus they're both having to work right now these guys did a great job as I said it was 112 114 degrees down there they were just soaking wet and sweat and they don't have a lot of time to rest I mean it's you get through the one event you got to go to another event and it's just non-stop and they I mean it's it's it's pretty much day-to-day work that they do every day as far as climbing and they really showed off how good you know dent linemen are and there's a one other added feature on on the limerodeo down there in Texas is they have a cooking competition and I want to say Jason how many teams were there about 60 teams and our team took first place brisket and that's I mean that's when you when you're at a cooking competition you went to briskets you're the king out there and the good thing about the reason they have this cook-off and they utilize is they take all the meat the chicken whatever they've cooked ribs and the awards ceremony that night they feed all the teams and the families you know a brisket dinner so it 's it's a big family family event down there there's a lot of people that go to this and the cooking team that won first place brisket was Lane Freeman and Jason Wilkins and to make these rodeos possible as I said you know there's there 's events going on and they've got three or four different stations for each event well you got to have judges and so all the utilities will provide judges and we took our judges down there and it was Cliff Knight and he's the fore man that's on the crew that's out doing the switching Van Emman Michael Pen nington and Michael Pennington's out he had back back surgery Monday Dave Joine au Ethan Horton he's on he's part of the switching crew and then Ryan Claremont and then the the last and one of the most important people on this deal is our logistics guy he's the guy that goes down gets the tent all set up because these guys got to have shade because there's not a whole lot of shade other than where the big pecan trees in this bottom and that's where all the families are already gathered so everybody provides a tent so that's a logistics guy Tim Kutas and he's he's he's doing interviews right now for a position so like I said these guys did a great job I mean they they're working on safety they're working on the knowledge of their trade how well they are and then how fast they can do it but the main thing that one of the main things that these guys get out of the rodeos is the fellowship with the other linemen for the utilities I mean it's linemen hood is a brotherhood and when the chips are down and utilities having trouble that may be in our our town or a different town or a different state you know they'll they'll band together and join mutual aid and we get a big deal out of that as far as knowing other utilities and having you know a fellowship with them I do have a few of the pictures do y'all have any questions you'd like to ask the guys or Councilmember Hamilton well so first of all I'd like to say I can't speak for all of council but I know I would like to try your brisket I bet I'm not the only one here I know we have one vegetarian but um and secondly but this could come after the slideshow but I'm curious to hear from one of the guys or a couple you know what was the most physically challenging thing that you did and then and then finally I just wanted to say I'm not all that surprised that that you guys did so well DME has an outstanding response time and and that's one of the things that that really makes makes me proud that we have our own municipal utility you guys really care and that shows this is not just the physical skill but it's also the caring so anyway congratulations but not not surprised at all anyone else I was kind of hoping we'd see some kind of demonstration but might be impractical I just want to express my my thanks for the spirit that you bring to serving Denton's citizen customers and I'm really glad that others were able to see it too you made that look good thanks well if I could have Clinton and Curtis just hang back y'all can explain the pictures up here because these these this is one of the events that I think this is Tyler and Garrett which is Curtis's team Curtis you won't explain what y'all were doing here Brad Mike step to the mic oh sorry okay this picture right here was one of the mystery events so we didn't know exactly what we're gonna be doing at the time or the day before we found out what we're gonna be doing and in this particular picture here we're putting on EPZ grounding which is a safety practice that we do when the line is de-energized and we test and put grounds on and then we're able to go up in the primary zone and complete whatever work that needs to be done and that's basically what this picture is next picture which that's Curtis on the ground which Curtis was a groundman on the team and he's the guy that sends all the tools up to the climbers that are up on the pole and then Clinton you're up on this one this was the same event I'm opening up the doors right now so we can test you can see Cody on the left is as I'm de-energizing everything he's testing to make sure that it is dead and then that's just common work practices you open up something you test and then you ground it so our next step in the process would be you can see the bag down low with all the grounds and the in the sticks in the bag once we get that all tested de- energized they'll send those up and we'll start grounding and then we changed out what to two cutouts and two bells so but that yeah same event councilmember Briggs I have a question about the event was it were you being timed and that's how you are I mean I'm just curious how you were being judged was it the timing and then the actual work procedures procedures yeah it was a 20-minute mean time 20-minute mean time and then there's a it's called the drop dead at 25 so like I think both our teams got a deduct because that vent was so tough I think there was out of 48 49 teams are only a couple teams that actually did it under the 20 minutes and just barely so when as we went over the time we got a two-point deduct and then the other event was also 20 minutes too but if you go past your 25 minutes which many teams did they just tell you to basically put the event back like it was before you started and just in come down so every time that they they do make a mistake there he calls it a deduct it's a deduction and there's a two-point deduction there can be a five-point deduction and there can be a ten-point deduction and I think all the only gigs we had were we went over the meantime on one event and then if a team ties and say everybody's got perfect scores then they go to time see how fast they did it so it's these guys are real fast on the pole I mean they get they get it done and I think the other picture I think that's the other groundman Blake that couldn't make it and if there's any other questions I'd love to answer for you. We appreciate the opportunity to go to go to these things I mean they they take a lot of pride in representing them they do a good job. Thank you. Thank you for that appreciate it. Thank you George. We'll move on to work session item B. Receive a report from attorney Richard Hayes hold the discussion to give staff direction on rules of parliamentary procedure. Welcome Richard. Thank you for having me here. I started you know having been on chairman board of the chamber president Kiwanis president of the bar Association you think you know something about parliament procedure after you've let a number of community groups but I really started learning probably went to procedure about 15 years ago when my wife asked me to come up to Ryan High School and to help their firm a procedure team and I said no not gonna do it she said look I'm begging you just come down here one time help the kid I was not doing you chew my ass out every time I get home late and I'm just not gonna I don't need more abuse in my life she says come one time that's all I'm asking just one time so I go and there was a young man there who had read Robert's rules over the summer and he had like a photographic memory so he would we'd be having a practice and I would say something says well that's not right mr. Hayes if you go on page 172 it says so and so and I went oh well that hurt so I flip open the book sure enough and he was absolutely 100% correct he's an MD now and it taught me I need to learn more about parliament procedure I didn't know there were a number of organizations the National Association of parliamentarians the Texas State Association of parliamentarians there's a network across the nation and now through those organizations I started learning more about it you'll see under my name it says professional registered parliamentarian and when you join the National Association of parliamentarians you're a member to be a member you have to take an exam so you can't just pay dues you have to take an exam show minimum proficiency and then they have a credentialing process you can first become a registered parliamentarian and then a professional registered parliamentarian that I do wrong here so there's only about 275 people in the nation that are PRPs professional registered parliamentarians we all have different niches some do labor unions some do PTA some do churches some do political some do governmental and so there's nuances to each of those various areas so what is prime procedure it's the basic rules of democracy it's how groups of people come together in form and then I'm talking just starting with a mass meeting where you think hey it'd be a great idea if we had a Harley-Davidson club here and didn't so you get a bunch of enthusiasts together and then you meet a couple times decide if you're gonna organization an appointed committee prepare your bylaws and ultimately adopt those and then once you have your by laws adopted you know how large your organization perhaps it's gonna be who the office what the officer positions are and whatever one's responsibilities are and then how to go about conducting your business do I have to hit that next every time or am I just hitting the wrong button all right so I want to talk a little bit about the history of parliamentary procedure I could be hitting a lot of the confusion in the parliamentary world is because there are many parliamentary authorities and to give you a brief history lesson the first parliamentary man in the United States was in 1801 by Thomas Jefferson now anybody remember what Thomas Jefferson was doing in 1801 he was the vice president and what is the main job of the vice president presided over the Senate when he realized there were no rules and so he prepared the first he called it the manual parliamentary procedure its parliamentary was his choice of words because a lot of it was drawn from the English Parliament the second major publication was by a man named Luther Cushing in 1844 it also had like the Jefferson manual dealt with deliberative assemblies of a legislative nature a Senate a house state Senate state houses and there were both excellent works and then finally in 1876 Henry Robert at the time he was a major and he realized that those legislative rules didn't necessarily prime very well to community organizations so he started with the Jefferson manual he reworked it trimmed it down changed some of the rules and came up with the pocket manual it was called a pocket manual because of so little it could fit right in your pocket of your shirt well over the years many parliamentary authorities have evolved they have some similarities but they have many differences and the main challenge I see on parliamentary procedure is we watch C-SP AN all the time and we see him do something and then we come back to our local organizations and we said man I saw how to do that on C-SP AN and it's wrong because they're using the Jefferson manual at the US House and Senate and most organizations these days are using a different parliamentary authority so this is a little cartoon about you know the teacher saying the past didn't counsel had run so well and void problems in the future we 're gonna start using Robert's rules you know this is Robert you know Mike makes right as compared to what the rule is but here is the dominant parliamentary authority for the United States it has about 90% of the market share it is the parliamentary authority that the city of Denton has adopted so what kind of rules govern an assembly now I made a couple little tweaks from the PowerPoint that was sent out to you in advance but we're gonna start at the top there's a lot of state law that governs city councils then you have your charter you've adopted special rules of order called city council rules of order or rules of procedure then your parliamentary authority Roberts rules standing rules which are more administrative in nature and then custom now since Roberts rules is your dominant is your parliamentary manual if you go right above that and it says city council rules of procedure and in parentheses I say special rules of order what you've done is you have tweaked Roberts to fit your particular needs as a consequence they take precedence and supersede what you read in Roberts so as with all law parliamentary law has general rules has exceptions to the rules and exceptions to the exceptions and most people know one of the three so that's another thing that causes confusion is people seeing different organizations operating in our different parliamentary authorities and then knowing either the law the exception to the law or the exception to the exception so this is your when you when you go back to your council rules of procedure that's in your section 2.29 of your code of ordin ances this b12 is says okay you're gonna use Roberts rules of order latest edition now we're on the 11th edition about every 10 years the authorship committee comes out with a new edition and they don't totally change it what they do is they have had circumstances that have arisen that require more coverage so for instance in the 10th edition there were three sentences on electronic meetings it was just starting to come about to really have electronic meetings by the time we made it to the 11th edition now we have three pages and I would expect when the 12th edition comes out probably around 2021 we'll have a greater coverage on that issue but your basic rules are gonna stay the same so how do we get home before midnight this seems to be a non goal of most governing bodies okay so it's not unique to the city of Denton but you know one reason I always thought I couldn't be a member of the City Council is I just slipped my wrist I've had to sit up there that long so one of your goals if you could is how do we not only operate better as a group but how do we get it over and done with I mean just get it over and done with so I want to give you some ideas the first thing I want to suggest to you is everybody should have a notebook now I know y'all have gone all electronic I want to encourage you to still have a notebook that you can keep next to your laptop and in there you're going to have I say first your contacts of all your council members key staff and you can even put your board members and stuff under that tab or you can do it further down like where you see nine ten eleven you want to have a calendar of any important events and that will have to be updated regularly on that tab then you want to copy of a corporate charter your council rules of procedure what I'm referring to is the motions chart that's this little handout I'm going to everybody have one of those tab for your agendas and minutes any financial records that you think are important to you especially the budget then your committee members and then all of our various boards and other organizations that are in the city carry this around with you because invariably what I see in organizations is you're wondering who's supposed to be done what and that'll help you all right so let's learn a little vocabulary the first thing we do when the mayor of the mayor pro tem begins speaking is we convene the meeting it means come together so normally it begins something like this I want to welcome everyone here tonight and convene the meeting convene just means come together immediately thereafter you need to establish a quorum so we heard the mayor pro tem today say a quorum being present we will now come to order we determine a quorum first before we come to order most organizations say I'll call the meeting the order do we have a quorum so we want to figure out if we have a quorum first then we're going to call the meeting to order different organizations do it different now one expediter when I looked at today's agenda I didn't see an item on there maybe you already did it the approval the minutes of the last meeting I didn't see it maybe it was escaping me I thought maybe about me under the consent agenda yeah generally they show up on the consent agenda every so often we'll have three or four sets of minutes that will be beyond consent at a time so generally we approve the minutes at the next regular scheduled meeting but consent agenda is a wonderful way to do that if you're at your Rotary Club you know the way it should handle happen or if you're at the another organization you just say the minutes haven't been mailed down in advance are there any corrections to the minutes crickets crickets crickets there being no corrections minutes stand approved is prepared does not require a motion we call that unanimous consent so that's a little b itty time saver it does not require a motion or a second so let's talk about some of the rules of speaking we want to be recognized before you speak address always the comments to the mayor or the mayor pro tem not to other council members why do you think we do that it's one way to keep the corn we don't start getting personal or you know heated so we direct it to the presiding officer whoever made the motion has the right to speak first under Roberts we have default rules on how long you can talk the default rule is ten minutes each time you speak and speak two times on the same day on the same same subject holy cow that's a lot of time so y'all have adopted under your City Council rules of procedure limits for outsiders but you have not known that on yourself so I don't know if you consider that an issue but to again to keep the meeting running what I see in large organizations especially at conventions is they will put a total time limit per item they'll say these items are all items which shall not exceed 20 minutes and you're gonna or you can put one speech per person not to exceed three minutes so you might just consider that you shall not speak more than twice on the same question on the same day that's a very reasonable rule and you don't have the opportunity to speak a second time until everyone else has had the opportunity to speak we've all been to meetings where there's just one person that is just dominating that particular meeting you know they might talk three four or five times that doesn't mean they don't have valuable things to add it's just it delays the meeting generally the remarks should be limited to the merits of the pending question that's the word vocabulary word here is germane has to be germane to whatever the immediately pending motion is we'll talk about that a little bit more in a minute you should alternate between those in favor and against now this is another hard thing that governmental bodies have doing you might have five people that are in favor of it and all five when I give their two cents worth on why they 're in favor of it and the other two don't speak if we wanted to expedite our meeting if there's no one who's speaking against it then there's real really no reason why we need here why all five people are in favor avoid the personal remarks don't ever question motives and don't impugn people's character if you make a motion you can't speak against it but after the debate you may have changed your mind say well that wouldn't a very good idea so you can vote against it and then in closing debate it requires a motion a second and a two- thirds vote to close debate or if the presiding officer says is there any further comments or we don't have any other lights you know you all use the touchscreen if there's no other lights then emotion is really not necessary that you would again be using unanimous consent this is Richard if we have a question yes so when the when the motives of a member of the body is questioned is the proper response for somebody to say point of order and we saw this very dramatically if you'll recall when Jeff Sessions was they were having the debate on the US Senate floor on whether or not he should become the Attorney General the United States and one of the other senators started haranguing and saying some things and what happened the residing officer just on this initiative called a point of order that one of our rules of decorum is we do not dispar age or speak ill of other members of the body okay so that was a good example of that point of order anytime you think there's a rule that's not being followed because you have millions of rules now don't you state law charter your code of ordinances your rules of order of rules of procedure your Roberts rules of order so you have all kinds of rules so that can be used anytime there is a perceived rule violation okay how to handle a motion so the first place I want to take you is on the front of your handout and this is prepared by the National Association of parliamentarians it is said that if you can learn these two pages front and back you'll know about 50% of everything you need to know about parliamentary procedure so that's kind of nice that it seems that hey I can know half on the front you'll see procedure for handling a main motion and after you have risen or you have punched your button and sought recognition and you're recognized then you have these six steps so first a member is gonna make a motion what's gonna happen next somebody else is gonna have to second it then the chair is gonna state the question it is moved and seconded to approve the contract with so-and-so debate it finally you 're gonna vote on the chair put put is a word of parliamentary art that is it has a very specific meaning in the parliamentary world and you put a question you're putting it to a vote and then the chair will announce the results of the vote so if you go down the little page here you can write your one two three four five six on here if you're wondering what happens what happens a lot of times is would normally get a motion 90% of the time we get a second about 50% of the time the chair will state the question we're pretty good about debating it I'd say 98% of the time we debate things when they're debatable sometimes we debate things that aren't debatable and then the chair puts the question to a vote we're good at that sometimes we assume there's a motion just like that unanimous consent we don't have a formal what does the chair say in unanimous consent what I gave you while ago are there in the corrections to the minutes crickets crickets crickets there being no corrections the minutes are approved or if there's no objection to the approval of the contract the contract will be approved crickets crickets crickets it's approved so we use unanimous consent so if everybody is chimed in that they're all in favor of the contract then it's really easy for the charity use unanimous consent in which since you're a governmental body everybody's gonna punch their keypad and give us the result it was pointed out the last time you had like a lot of discussion about preliminary procedure in this body that we have kind of a custom or a practice of having debate and then kind of seeing if somebody wants to entertain you know if someone wants to make a motion right is that a problem that's the antithesis of parliamentary procedure again in governmental bodies the basic rule is have a motion on the floor you have a motion on the floor then you can focus the debate you know exactly what you're going to either vote you're gonna prove the contract you're gonna disapprove it so if you wait till all of it is and you kind of read the tea leaves and it says well it looks like there's five people against this then someone may say well I'll make a motion to disapprove but if you'll I would encourage you again if you could discipline yourselves the mayor will read the agenda item say this is the next item someone could make their motion then debate it then we're gonna use some of those other rules to help expedite your meeting alternate between those in favor and those against once you run out of one side don't recognize the others okay that will save you an incredible amount of time so if you'll make your motion first to direct the direct the debate and then alternate so everybody doesn't have to speak I know you're on TV but what's the goal get home before midnight that's the goal all right now how do you obtain the floor in the work session we are raising hands at the council members you're gonna press your touchscreen in larger assemblies let's say you're a convention or something like that normally you'll arise an address and then after your recognition you'll give your name identification and you'll remain standing until you're recognized once someone else is recognized you can go ahead and sit down so what's our mnemonic for the front page here remember we said there are six steps first step is what make a motion then I move that don't say I motion that I move that I move to adopt the ordinance dealing with so-and-so I move that or I move to then we have the second that's a set second step then the chair is going to state the question now this is something else that we see is not used dramatically correct but it is moved its present tense not it has been moved now if you say it has been moved that's not the in the world we can figure it out but it's moved and seconded you know to approve the contract then we're going to debate it we're gonna put it to the vote and this is that last step step six on announcing results the eyes have it the motion is adopted and the treasurer will issue the check you know to pay the bill I want you to see here this has three parts to it announcing the results of the vote so it's very clear what just happened which side had it what happened that is the motion is adopted or lost and the effect you know we will enter into a contract if you look at the bottom in the middle here it gives you those three steps when it has under the chair announces the result of the vote so it has three parts to it every time which side has it whether or not the motion is adopted or not and the effect and then immediately thereafter move the next item of business is you know agenda item 4b where it may be knows haven't the motion is lost the check will not be written next item of business is so what are our six steps motion second we state it now in the parliamentary world that mss that's miss and the fourth the last part their debate a vote and announce is diva that's miss diva that's the mnemonic I used that term a while ago so if you're trying to remember that you could write mss DBA and you'll know your procedures okay methods of voting in your council chambers you know someone is going to have made a you have to punch your keypad to vote I mean to make a motion someone else's has a little place on there to make the second if you want to debate you have a place to do that and then you have a place to touch either for or against so you're not doing electronic what we would technically call electronic voting because you're all together at the same time but you are using electronic device to indicate your preference so what you're doing here is you're having synchronous voting you're in a synchronous meeting everybody's in the same room the same time everybody's voting at the same time that's different than asynchronous where you try to vote by email for instance some organizations allow that their bylaws so allow in voting we're talking about voting methodologies lots of do y'all ever do a voice vote even on simple things are you always used to keep it we occasionally use hands especially if we're voting in here that's the only okay option for all right and in your work session minutes you always record how everyone voted someone doing that or you just put it past well during work session we'll get consensus but we don't actually vote but any items on the regular meeting or special call meeting that we vote on it is recorded who voted which direction okay I knew that all right we use raising hands or a rising vote normally when their two-thirds vote is required you know the old there was what we call division of the assembly and in the great days they would literally be in a room and those in favor would go to one side of the room and the O's that against it would go to the other so this is rising votes Viva Voce is the Latin phrase that means you know by vocal doing it vocally so in our special community organizations who might say those in favor the motion say aye those opposed say no and then which side has it is how we would do we already saw a couple examples of unanimous consent we did that especially when there seems to be no opposition y'all use the concept you announced consent when you do your what yes consent agenda exactly and unanimous consent doesn't mean everybody's in favor of it it just means no one has an objection that's what that really means that's why we say if there's no objection the contract will be approved so you'll see in the third check mark there it can be used without stating the question and putting it to a formal vote Councilmember Mouser yes I offer a footnote there is a form of unanimous consent where everyone is in favor is there not that's called approval by acclamation you can do acclamation yes all right so now we 're going to learn a little bit about motions I want you to open up your handout and you're gonna see over on the left hand side it says ranking motions we have a total of five classes of motions three of those classes are called ranking or in the ranking area starting at the bottom main motions main motions bring substantive business before the organization we have subsidiary motions and then privilege motions so there are 13 ranking motions so we have main motions subsidiary and privilege those are the three classes ranking motions and I just told you there were 13 in individual motions under there one for the main motions seven subsidiary and five privileged now interestingly when you go to your City Council rules the procedure y'all ever carry these around hard copy was you just use it all electronic it's not a trick question all right electronic okay until I build my folder second under the section G consideration of ordinances resolutions and motions when you get down to subsection 10 says order of precedence of motions so that's what this is talking about we're not talking about ranking motions it has to do with precedence we'll come back to that and then the other two classes are on the right hand side of your handout non ranking motions you'll see these were in alphabetical order up there incidental motions and then motions that bring a question again before the assembly so since they have no rank putting it in alphabetical order was as good as any now there are about 80 of four different parliamentary maneuvers that you'll see in Robert's rules you'll see that if we only have 13 ranking motions and you can look across the way maybe we have another 13 or 14 where all the other maneu vers well if it's not on this chart on let me give you the good news to you guys on motions that bring a question again for the assembly there's only four of those so generally they're gonna end up being an incidental motion generally okay there's your chart now let's see what else is on this page up in the top left hand corner it's called pertinent facts you'll see it gives you the definition of four of the five classes of motions underneath it it says meaning of symbols because some of the maneuvers have a symbol out next to them and the bottom left hand corner types of amendments over in the right hand side you'll see notes for footnotes and then at the bottom right hand corner forms of voting so this is a cute cartoon what is motion sickness okay so now we're going to go through some of those specific motions and the first the lowest ranking motion is the main motion how do we make a main motion I move that or two I move that or two now let's look at our parliamentary chart for just a minute and you see all these columns on here every parliamentary maneuver has what we call eight standard descriptive characteristics six of the eight lend themselves pretty well to a chart format the other two do not so what you'll see in your chart here is in the first column is is an interrupting motion can you just interrupt and if there is a what there can you interrupt the letter I thank you second column tells us whether or not that motion needs a second the third is whether that 's debatable the fourth is it amendable the fifth is what kind of vote is required and the sixth was can you reconsider that particular parliamentary maneuver the general rule on main motions is that majority vote majority rules y'all have adopted a under your council rules of procedure you have tweaked that rule a little bit so this is one of those special rules of order this is under G again we remember a while ago we were talking about G so consideration of ordinances resolutions and motions and what does the slide say here y'all said an affirmative vote of four members is necessary to repeal any ordinance or take any official action in the name of the city that would be like adopting an ordinance so what if you only had five people at the meeting what happens still at their for still at their board that's 80% so you have varied Roberts because once you've determined you have a quorum five would be a quorum then normally a three out of the five could pass it so there are some positive to this you know it puts when you have a low turnout one night it protects those who are absent from those being present adopting something that others may decide was you know ill- advised or not fully developed you also have another rule talking about tie votes and if you have a tie vote so you have six people there then it automatically goes to the next council agenda so what normally happens on a tie vote in parliamentary law guys tie vote is a lost vote so what y'all done is since you're having to do substantive business that's what this is this particular area of your rules are dealing with substantive business then we know we're gonna have to still deal with the issue and if it's a tie vote then we'll kick it to the next agenda council member breaks do our boards and Commission says can you go back also follow the a tie vote and say if they do say PNZ has a tie vote that's going to be a tie forever and ever does that move up to council or does that stay in the committee and and die so your specific question dealt with which body planning and zoning okay the answer that would be no okay that's how I read your the rule says under be general rules it says well that's not the right section what it says under authority number one percent of the rev isions of section 2.07 of the Charter the City Council hereby enacts these rules of procedure for all meetings of the City Council of the City of Denton so I see it as written it's just applying to council and so any other body board or Commission that would have a tie vote then that vote would die be a lost vote be a lost vote okay thank you there's actually a provision in the rules of procedure that's it's yeah you have a whole bunch of rules on committees don't you it's it 's the last it's h4 and then there are rules of procedure and it basically it mandates all these rules procedure 2-29 apply to all the boards and commissions and committees and so we they have my previous action council has okay he's applicable to them they're not referenced in the general 2-29 but we do make it applicable okay and where did you say that was it's the provision right before it subsection I okay okay rules the procedure board commission and committees members shall comply with the provisions of this of Article 2 chapter 2 of the Code of Ordinances copy we provide a copy of these rules of procedure which shall govern operational procedures the boards and Commission so I stand correct thank you councilmember yeah I just have a question about that I mean like on PNC if it's a tab old or actually they voted down that still doesn 't prevent the council itself from bringing that matter up correct generally it would not okay because the council could basically overrule PNC and bring it before the council well council might deny the let's say a rezoning in a piece of property that didn't you know preclude it from coming before the council you know they're making a recommendation to the council okay I mean then council will take the final action on that item okay councilmember my question to follow up on that so if PNC isn't a tie vote and it's forever a tie vote how would that recommendation come to council if it doesn't ever it would essentially be no recommendation so it would eventually come to us is no recommendation well it's not they're not in favor and they're not against it so at some point if it keeps getting hung up in PNC and I guess the council becomes aware of it you could request that it be put on your agenda I mean after a little while it seems that body most of this body's organized to have odd number of members so at some point they ought to be able to break the time unless someone keeps abstaining or someone keeps being absent but normally it'll work its way through have y'all had a an example of that where it just kept me month after month it was time vote time vote well there was a recusal and so I mean it eventually worked itself out but I 'm just kind of going through the the process okay so let's go back to your example if that were the case perhaps you might consider adding to the rule if it's ends in a tie vote more than twice then what do you want what do you want the result to be it automatically kicks it from the board to the council or it's now it really is lost you can decide okay thank you I just wanted to add that there's a work session coming before you I believe it's next week about this specific issue and some of the recommendations the staff is making to address the tie vote provision so thank you okay if you want to kill a motion look at your parliamentary chart second from the bottom you'll see postpone indefinitely this is your lowest ranking subsidiary motion this is the killer motion so what you do if someone says I'm able to postpone the motion indefinitely you're now voting on whether or not to kill it so if you pass the motion to postpone indefinitely what what's the practical effect of that you never took a vote of the main motion that was before you passed postpone indefinitely so you this is what Congress does all the time they can say well I was for it and because I didn't vote against it but yes you voted to kill the motion okay but you never took a direct vote on the motion okay in that case could a motion to reconsider bring it back from purgatory all right now look at postpone inde finitely y'all have a rule that's again it when yours a special rule that supersedes Roberts Roberts with the asterisk there says see Roberts is what that means and which all have adopted a rule that at the next regular scheduled meeting someone could make a motion to postpone I mean a motion reconsider so long as you put it you know let somebody know in advance so it can be on the agenda to comply with the Open Meetings Act so what this rule tells you is is we only reconsider under Roberts affirmative votes only that's what that asterisk means so how many of you people actually have a rock I want to give you these for a moment you can get back to the panel I wanted to tell you one of the most valuable parts of Roberts that is most people never use in the back we have these tinted pages this takes every parliamentary maneuver Richard if you could step behind the mic camera range stay on camera you'll see it has all those maneuvers but let's go to postpone indefinitely it's in its item 61 on page 23 in the tinted pages and when you see an asterisk on your chart if you will slide over to whether or not it can be reconsidered what does it say affirmative vote only affirmative vote only all right so we don't reconsider negative votes to kill it okay now that's but y'all have adopted a different rule so I'm just giving you a distinction in your rules so this is a killer motion if you want to change a motion we do that by amending now look on the bottom left hand corner of your parliamentary chart I gave you types of amendments I'm going to tell you there are five one way is to insert a second way is to add insert means between existing words add means at the end we can strike out words we can strike out and insert words or we could substitute those are the five ways that we amend so here is a practice pointer the rule is you have a main motion on the floor a primary amendment can be made and a secondary amendment can be made a secondary amendment amends the primary amendment we do not allow a tertiary amendment so it gets too confusing at that point if many options need to be considered Roberts gives you an option it's called to create a blank and then you can take all kinds of suggestions and then whichever suggestion first suggestion that receives a majority vote then you can fill the blank but as far as amendments primary and a secondary the secondary amendment has to be germane to the primary amendment and I have some examples here at the end I'm gonna go through amendments a little more thoroughly yes ma 'am there's a if somebody has an idea for a tertiary amendment could the could the body decide to postpone the meeting with the primary and secondary amendment to postpone that to another time where in in which case with the tertiary amendment when reconsidered would it still count as the tertiary amendment or then would it be okay so your idea is we're starting to brainstorm now we have several ideas and maybe the suggestion is we're gonna postp one the main motion and the adhering amendments to be taken up at the next regularly scheduled meeting yeah okay maybe even a better way to do that is refer it to a committee let the committee study all these different alternatives and then bring a recommendation back from the committee might be another way to do it okay so that way you're still not bogged down if you think there's going to be many suggestions just go ahead and say I moved him in the say the motion is I moved to order a pepperoni pizza and someone makes that's a main motion primary amendment strike pepperoni insert sausage secondary amendment strike sausage and insert anchovy okay and someone else wants to have vegetarian okay so we're getting all these different suggestions so maybe in that case since we're trying to order the pizza for lunch that may be impractical to send it to a committee or to postpone it so in that instance the better thing to do might be to create a blank take all the suggestions for the kind of pizza you want and then we start voting on them in the order in which they're made and the first one that receives a majority may we never make it to anchovy because we're gonna adopt the earlier item now filling of blanks is very technical area we have different rules for money names we do them in the order in which they were suggested for distance we have different rules because what we do and like distance and money we start with the least likely suggestion to be adopted and work our way so if someone says I moved to sell City Hall for a million dollars and someone else said and some as I want to create a blank and the first suggestion will be a million and then somebody else's well I think we shouldn't sell it for less than two million if someone else's well I don't think should be less than 10 million so we get all those when you're trying to sell what would be the least likely the one million well the least likely to be a man that is you'd rather get you prefer to sell it for his house now if you're the buyer you say now I moved by the new City Hall then you want to start with the lowest okay that mean that is the most likely way we always start with the least likely so there are different rules for filling different kinds of blanks on it and that's a whole nother day okay we want to send it to a group for study we commit a refer if we want to delay action to the next meeting we move to postpone I move to postpone the item to the next and a regularly scheduled meeting or you can postpone it to later in the same meeting so postpone can be used both ways same meeting or another meeting but it can't be beyond the next meeting you can't postpone something for a year they'll be like trying to kill it wouldn't so you would do your postpone indefinitely if you want to change the rules of debate you can limit or extend limits of debate now you can see what we're doing here is we're working our way up the chart and and and the next one is the previous question so if you would look at limit debate and previous question what vote is required for both of those two-thirds either and the reason it's two-thirds is debate is a basic right of a member of a assembly so if we're gonna take away that basic right or limit it in some way then we're going to require two-thirds vote so do both of those require a second limit debate or previous question yes and it requires two-thirds so here is what y'all have under your council rules of order when the previous question is moved and seconded it should be put as follows remember put is that word of art shall the main question be now put if you're gonna make a suggestion Aaron on something I might show the main question now be voted on instead of put that's just a technical term there should be no further amendment or debate except that nothing here in shall allow the previous question to be called prior to at least one opportunity for each council member to speak now if you were gonna look for time savers this is another this is a killer we're gonna let everybody speak on every issue the other thing by closing debate I moved the previous question it stops debate on all these lower pending motions but it allows you to make these higher ranking motions this is one of the most abused motions I see because lots of times organizations are not requiring seconds or two-thirds vote if you want to set aside something temporarily because something else of urgency is arisen what are we gonna do for the highest ranking subsidiary motion we're gonna lay it on the table now in the Jefferson manual lay on the table is a killer motion so we watch C span and we see the US House of Representatives say I move to lay the motion on the table they're killing it when lay on the table does not kill a motion what motion kills it postpone inde finitely that's the killer motion so lay on the table not a killer motion requires majority vote now we're gonna move over to the right-hand side of your parliamentary chart under incidental motions if we want to enforce a rule what are we gonna do make a point of order if you're not sure if a point of order is in is the appropriate maneuver to make and you want to be or maybe you'll be more genteel about it what can you do make a parliamentary inquiry you could ask the presiding officer do we have a council rule that prohibits making personal attacks against members you're making instead of saying the person 's out of order just because they did it you can make a parliamentary inquiry now once the chair makes a parliamentary ruling like someone says point of order state your point can't attack council members the presiding officer says point well-made if you disagree with that parliamentary ruling and you can appeal from the decision of the chair so on the right-hand side since this is an alphabetical order you'll see appeal there does it require a second yes and a majority vote you'll rarely have the need for division since you're using raising hands or the keypad voting what happens when you're at a convention the chair says all in favor say aye and then the nose all opposed say no the nose always seem louder and there have been a lot of studies on this and most of the time the eyes had it and so if you disagree with that because we're using our ears on a voice vote then you can have a rising vote use our eyes again we're not counting we're just looking we got 8,000 delegates if you still can't tell then you could do some type of counted vote what did I tell you while ago if you had a parliamentary question what do we use yeah we don't ever use the word question in the parliamentary world you don't say I have a question we either make parliamentary inquiries or we make requests for information so if you want to be very technical now no meeting runs perfect we see lots of people say well I have a question on so and so but technically we would say requests for information if you want to do something that your parliamentary rules don't allow that is your City Council rules a procedure or Roberts rules we can suspend the rules guess what we can't suspend we can't suspend state law we can't suspend our corporate charter okay we can't suspend those you can only suspend parliamentary rules and under your rules again instead of it being a majority vote I mean excuse me a two thirds vote y'all have a specific rule that allows four votes to suspend the rule so you've made a little bit easier if all seven people are there if only six of the seven are there it's still two-thirds just like go to your chart the last item says suspend the rules you'll see that if you want to write on your chart suspend the rules right between the and rules the word parliamentary reconsideration this is on that the fifth class of motions motions bring a question again before the assembly and this is your specific City Council rule or procedure rule as with Roberts it can only be made by someone who voted on the prevailing side but y'all allow it to be made at the next succeeding official meeting of the council and as we talked about while ago you have to let it be known that you're gonna make that motion so it can be agenda so how do you do that your rule says let the city manager know so we can get it on the agenda all right now we're gonna talk about amendments how many ways did I say you could amend while ago five so we add what does that mean at the end so if you will say I moved to amend by adding then everybody in the room knows this is going to go on the end same thing if you insert they know it's going to go between words so I move to amend by inserting a pepperoni after the word the main motion is I move to order pizza for lunch so you know I move to amend by inserting pepperoni between order and pizza councilmember Meltzer whatever would be considered a proper to amend by inserting the words anything but yes that's right get new carpet in City Hall anything but red or something okay then we can move to strike out and insert and substitute substitution is when you have so many changes that are going on it's instead of taking like five different little amendments we're just gonna take a whole new paragraph in place of that which is there so let's give some examples here I already tell you this one main motion we order pizza and the motion is to amend by adding with pepperoni mushrooms and bell peppers now where does that go at the end that's what that means if we're gonna insert main motion I move that we order pizza someone else says I want to man by inserting pepperoni after order so the amended motion read that we order pepperoni pizza I'm using pizza because it's real easy to understand when if we took some of your agenda items it's a little more challenging and I think sometimes it gets the better of you know City Council's as they're trying to make amendments our strikeout and insert and the motion was that we order a deep-dish pizza someone else wanted to make it so you can see we would strike out and insert amending the amendment so remember we have the main motion we have a primary amendment and then now this is our secondary amendment secondary amendments amends only the primary amendment that second bullet says it cannot be applied to a secondary amendment what was the word we used while ago for that you cannot have a tertiary it has to be germane to the the secondary amendment has to be Jane germane to the primary amendment so main motion is to buy a computer someone else wants to amend it by inserting Dell so if adopted it would read I moved to amend the amendment by striking Dell inserting Apple once you have a secondary amendment floor you have to vote on that and if that passes then you have to vote on the primary amendment and then you vote on the main motion as amended so this would not this is an incorrect example what's wrong here why couldn't we put a cost limitation well we were our primary amendment was what type of computer what brand were we going to buy so your secondary amendment has to do with branding this has to do with dollars once we decide to adopt Dell and now it just says I moved to buy a Dell computer for the executive then you can add a second primary amendment to put a dollar limitation cost on it so we're not mixing apples and oranges there Councilmember Hurtour yes this is a nitpicky question but just to understand but if you included the cost with the with the Dell amendment wouldn't that be wouldn't that mean a Dell computer not to exceed a thousand dollars as opposed to if you just included it at the end then it would be any computer whatever kind you have flexibility on how you word it but again we're not gonna amend insert Dell here and then add cost over here it needs to be all in one location that's your example that you just gave I see we're not gonna have three primary amendments yes and we wouldn't say at a cost not to exceed a thousand dollars and then add from Best Buy yeah now we're on the vendor where we're gonna go buy it so here we 're gonna add at the end pepperoni mushrooms and bell peppers here we're going to amend the primary amendment by striking what pepperoni and inserting sausage so if amended it would read the primary amendment would read by adding the words sausage mushrooms and bell peppers if the sausage secondary amendment fails then we're back to the primary amendment which would be pepperoni mushrooms and bell peppers so in this example the last bullet we assume that the secondary amendment passed and then the primary amendment was passed so the main motion now reads as you see there so let's look at graphically okay now there are lots of ways to find out more and let me encourage you to go surfing when I told y'all did I started trying to find out things so of course I go on internet and type in parliamentary procedure and the next thing I learned there's a million YouTube's out there on parliamentary procedure there's another organization called the American Institute of parliamentarians they not only use Roberts but they use what's called the standard code or now the AIP code under the AIP code the motion lay on the table is a killer motion so that's another example that's mainly used in the medical communities and in the AIP you're tested over multiple parliamentary authorities as compared to the national you're just doing Roberts now let's do some questions I have about eight minutes left it looks like questions customer Brooks just for clarification because you said lay on the table so if we say I've heard it on our council move to table same thing same thing same thing so we're using it as a killer motion now when do we use the motion to lay on the table because something else of urgency has risen that we need to temporarily set aside the item under consideration the theory being we're gonna later on take it from the table so if you go back to your parliamentary chart if you look under motions that bring the question again before the assembly the very first one is take from the table so if you were going to table it and try to kill it you can see how that doesn't work very well if we can take it from the table and unkill it so it's just the wrong maneuver for the desired objective so just saying in the future if you want to kill it I'm going to postpone indefinitely and so if you do if it does get moved do you have to because we do a date certain and is that with a postponement that is postponed definitely versus postponed indefinitely indefinitely is the killer okay so go over here to your subsidiary motions go fourth from the bottom and you'll see it says postponed a certain time or definitely so you say I'm going to postpone it to the next regularly scheduled council meeting that would be for later consideration or I move to postpone consideration of this motion until 4 p.m. you know this afternoon you could choose a time today councilmember husband thank you thank you Richard for presentation and then also would you be so kind as to email the updated one because I do like the example the only amendment is yeah those couple of slides if I can do that thank you be happy to and then let me tell you one other excellent my wife is that one should have that instead of this if you want to carry one around carry around the yellow one it covers about 90% of everything you're going to ever see and you'll see the print is larger and there's a lot of white space in it it's designed to be much more user- friendly this is written for like a sophomore in high school and this is written for a sophomore in college this the 11th edition is written to cover the very very very technical and there are many other technical resources there's a book that Robert wrote called parliamentary law it's a red hardbound you know leather book and it is much more thorough even than this but he wrote it in 1923 and it is still gold and so the practicing parliamentarians all keep parliamentary law around for when an issue comes up but 90% of the time you can use this book has a pretty good index you'll see at the back it has some gray pages not as many it has an excellent table of contents and you ought to be able to read this front and cover in an hour unless you're really getting into it so this is a very quick read if you try to read this it will put you to sleep is what it'll do councilmember Nelson back to the endlessly fascinating topic of tabling so first of all I take it that tabling is like postponing but just within the confines of one meeting right when you're postp oning it's to another meeting if you post it excuse me if you lay it on the table uh-huh it can stay on the table up to the next meeting so if you run out of time that that was my question it comes up as unfinished business at the next meeting that was no there's several ways that things can become unfinished business you have items on your agenda and you never reached them or again the your own an item and then someone says I moved to adjourn you know it's 1 a.m. in the morning that would come up as unfinished business all right we're gonna practice just for a minute making I'm gonna call on Deb you're gonna think of a motion to make okay not too hard a motion and then Don you're gonna make an amendment to the motion now you don't know what the amendments gonna be yet why because we haven't heard her motion yet okay chair recognizes councilperson this is not real I moved to sell City Hall for three dollars crickets crickets there being no second the motion will not be considered okay that's how it normally work it doesn't die for a lack of a second it's not considered so this time Gerard you're in charge of making all the seconds okay make your motion yeah I moved to sell City Hall for three dollars thank you chair I move you just say second second it's one word yes second you could go so far as to say I second the motion but you can just say one I second second so what would the mayor say it is moved and seconded to sell City Hall for three dollars now what would happen are you ready for the question that's the immediately pending question and we would debate and at some point or right off the bat councilperson Duff seeks recognition and your motion is make a motion to make it a hundred dollars all right so you would say I moved to amend by striking three and inserting 100 that was very clear okay I moved to strike three insert 100 Gerard second it is moved and seconded to amend the main motion by striking three and inserting 100 so if adopted this is what the chair says if adopted the main motion read to sell City Hall for $100 again we would debate this primary amendment and let's assume that it passes so the main motion now reads to sell City Council for $100 City Hall City Hall yeah I'm seeing the headline in the paper already move to sell themselves all right that's essentially how we make a motion and we minutes always say I move to strike and insert and so it's very clear that way you're not leaving it up to the chair to know where you want to insert your proposed language because this is easy one with dollars but sometimes we have other words so where does he put it does he put it at the end is stick in the middle do they put it between this word or put it over here between this word so give direction that way everyone knows exactly what's happening all righty well thank y'all for having me and if I can ever be of assistance to you I wanted to give you two other things if I could that I wanted to suggest you do on your parley chart we already wrote in suspend the rules and we we wrote in the word parliamentary rules and if you slide across to the column that says vote what did we see while ago y'all have adopted a special rule of order it says it takes four votes so right for under vote so you can just strike through two-thirds and put four and then depending on how many how many people are at the meeting that could either be 57 percent or two-thirds or unanimous if there's only four people there the other change I want to give you is over on notes under note four this has to do with let's where do we find foot note four on the chart anybody find it reconsider so dot on the bottom right here under reconsider you'll see a four out in front I want you to come up on the right-hand side where it says notes and you'll see in the second sentence that says this motion can be made only by one who vote on the prevailing side we know that's true and then from there on down I want you to line it out and you're gonna insert no later than the next meeting since you've adopted a special rule on that and remember it's no later than the next meeting but only if it's first you first notify the city manager so you can comply with the open meetings that so those are the three additions I would give you to your chart okay well thank you so much and if I can ever be help you all let me know thank you very much Richard bit of a housekeeping matter we have heard from the mayor and he will not be making it for the work session and he has asked that we postpone item F which was receiving the report and holding discussion regarding the Denton basic service center until next week so I want to make sure that we let y'all know about that if anyone in the audience is sticking around for that in particular what that'll actually be on next week's agenda and since we've been going for about an hour and a half right now we will go ahead and take about a five-minute break and stretch our legs and come back for the next time welcome back everyone to this work session on August 21st it is now 148 and right before the break I had made the announcement that we were going to post the mayor was not going to be able to make it during the work session time period and it asked that we postpone item F which was on the Denton basic services center project and it you know if we go back to our previous item it's just been a custom that when the mayor requests a work session be postponed since there's no action being taken on it that we normally do that but we've had some people that have asked to have a discussion on whether or not we're actually going to postpone that or all the discussion today so I'll open it up councilmember Armatole. Thank you thank you councilmember Ryan I'm mayor pro tem yeah I I would like us to at least have a discussion since staff is if the staff that was going to do their presentation is still here they haven't left the building yet I would I would like that and since this is just a work session discussion and it's not a vote that's being taken so he wouldn't be missing a vote but I'm curious to hear what others have to say on the issue any any other comments I guess I'll councilmember Briggs. Oh yeah well generally my recollection when an item is asked to be postponed the mayor looks up for a general consensus instead of just saying we're gonna do it and then move on so that is where that conversation came back up I'm okay with either listening to the presentation or waiting but I do think that the conversation and discussion needs to happen. My opinion is I would rather we have all all of us here the mayor is on the Denton County Task Force and I think that's part of the homeless task force and I think that's part of why he wanted to be here for that discussion is he felt like he had some input to give on that and so I would prefer that we just push it to next week. Councilmember Hussbuss? Yeah yeah I would I'd like I'd be in agreement to push it till next week when when he's here because he requested it I think that's fair and I think ultimately we'll just we're gonna get to a show of hands I'm assuming just so we have a clear yeah yeah we'll kind of see where we're at and I would prefer to you know mayor requested it that we postpone it because he needs to be here. Councilmember Roussel? The the issues are so complex and important you know the the ultimate set of solutions you know we're going to require a lot of work and care and we ultimately need to build you know a broad enough base of support and counsel for anything and you know I think the mayor needs to be part of that learning process with us. Okay thank you. Looks like we have four wanting to and in one kind of on the fence could go either way so are we we all fine with moving it then till okay in that case we will move on to agenda item 3c. Receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding the draft annual report of oil and gas well inspection activities conducted by modern geoscience. Dr. Banks? Good afternoon council Ken Banks I'm general manager of utilities it's my pleasure to introduce Kenneth Tram who is with modern geosciences and he is here to give a summary of the draft annual gas well report. Well good afternoon I'm sorry I don't have as many handouts as the one before me so I feel like I'm gonna let you down at the start so I 'll begin with that but that said I do hope I have some data that is helpful the last time we visited was kind of a discussion of some of the scope and some of the work that we would perform and so we finished the first half of the year with the inspections which means we touched all the pad sites at least once that we intended to and so this kind of encompasses some of that information I know it was provided earlier there's lots of charts and data in here my intent is not to bore you with all of it but to have it available in case there's specific items that you would like to talk about. So just as a refresher where we were you know the you have a program an active program already includes an inspector and they're continually visiting the sites a minimum of twice a year and often much more than that depending on complaints or concerns that are voiced we were brought in as a third party to do an additional level of inspections with more high-resolution tools and things such as that with some specific objectives those are listed here right improve maybe the data framework so if you wanted to mine the data what do we know from those inspections what more do we want to know let's build the framework that would help us answer those questions tailor an investigation approach that was sensitive to the cities and the citizens concerns if it was closer to certain concerns inspect and get the answers we want for that versus further out there let's just answer the big picture questions and then create a clear reporting format this goes hand in hand with your improvements Dr. Banks will visit with in just a second on with you with the the website so there's just more transparency more access to the data by the citizens and then a better way to communicate with the operators these are the concerns we have and the things that you need to be addressing so we developed a report format with the city that hopefully accomplishes that mission and then perform the inspections of course and then prepare reports so this touches on some of that and as at the bottom here as you can see we've completed the first part of that we're actually tabulating the data from the second part of that so it'll all be in one report when we 're all done the prioritization of pad sites they fell into three categories that we worked out with the city staff from low moderate to high and they each had different elements to them and on the slide you can see the parameters and the elements related to that to kind of visually present some updates to the program itself so kind of on the left you've got a list of the individual items and then you have some items that the city were performing inspection elements of and then in the high moderate low how those stack up against each other again this is presenting the report and I think we visited last time we're here but if there's any questions we'll dive in I'll consider it a success if nobody's asleep by the end of this but you know the data is important so I want to make sure I focus on the things that you wanted to know you know when we start any program for a city it's important to actually set some thresholds with what do certain things mean like what is elite criteria what is a fence line criteria and so we work with the city staff and of course we pull from a lot of references so we can establish some criteria where if we see exceedance of these criteria there could be concerns doesn't mean there has to be but it means we need to actually you know ask a few more questions get a few more answers or just see something repaired or replaced or fixed then that there's no longer a question on it so this is kind of the threshold criteria for that so those were established and those would be those are actually in all the reports councilmember Briggs so you do this for other cities correct that is correct so is our threshold is that similar or normal as compared to other cities very similar what I'll say is you have more parameters than a lot of other cities so some of them do not have this criteria at all it's not an item that they were inspecting for one thing in working with Denton after working at many other cities and kind of seeing where things are kind of where the gaps are between different regulatory programs what's open to be known you have the benefit of some of that here so you have probably some of the more robust inspection questions that are being asked currently okay thank you sure councilmember Romer told do we test do you test for methane is that part of our that's correct absolutely yeah natural gas when you hear natural gas in your mind should be that is primarily methane right if I go home and I'm cooking a burger that's methane that I'm burning in there there's a few things added and this is a few things matter that are in there too so if I were to divide up kind of where those elements in that low moderate and high priority every single one of them has what we would refer to as a near equipment inspection since we're not very creative it means exactly what you think it means right so I am near the equipment and I'm doing an inspection to find out not only compliance elements it's a large checklist of compliance elements that are in your ordinances we're checking those too but we're also looking for things that are specific to releases so in this case leaks such as the methane that we're after and then radiation as well so I'm not sure how many of you have been to pad site or looked around but it's helpful and so here it looks like you use the flare camera that's correct that correct yeah there had been it I'll just say on on previous City Council's there had been some kind of skepticism about the the accuracy of the flare camera can you can you speak to that is it pretty accurate at detecting leaks well you know so it's a near infrared piece of equipment and it's gonna see when the near infrared has been blocked by a compound now that compound doesn't have to only be methane like that could be we could go to a gas station you turn a flare camera on and you'll see the benzene toluene other things that are a similar portion of the the wavelength that would be blocked so you can't say it's an absolutely this thing or that thing other than if you're right up against a piece of quiz to where it's very helpful on near equipment you know another thing we do with different cities is we actually take other meters out so found a leak what's in the leak right we can answer that next question but it's a fantastic tool for the starting of that conversation we go to pad sites and we see nothing on the optical gas imaging camera or a FLIR for an example of a manufacturer and we go to others and we see several so that gives you some indication okay there's something to ask about those ones we just saw they can there be water vapor connected absolutely can there be other things in it absolutely so the ones that you're seeing here so for kind of on the top this is a at a wellhead a compression fitting obviously a continuous leak like this would be something we would note as a leak I would meet our criteria in this case since you'd asked about a FLIR camera this is where I can go down a rabbit hole and probably talk longer than you want but in general depends on the weather condition as to what the detection limit will be with an optical gas imaging camera there are some days where it will be maybe five eight maybe even ten thousand parts per million and there are days where it may be three thousand parts per million because the optics of the environment I'm working in are such that allows us to see so the detection limit can vary significantly but either way if I see it there it's at least ten thousand or less which is a good rule of thumb and that's what we use here as well and what the EPA uses as well this is an example of a dump valve as stuck they're probably one of the most common leaks that we see and then a pressure relief valve this one known as an inardo valve right so its purpose is to you need you need these things to breathe it's just the way the operations are working we're looking for when pieces of equipment are not working how they were intended or designed and the majority of operators when you can show them hard evidence of those items they generally want to fix those items so those are good examples of near equipment those are with an optical gas imaging camera allows us to go through when we started this before these were on the market you know it probably take us you know an hour or two or three hours per a simple pad site now these can go faster and hence there's a less cost to the city for us to finish these inspections they're just good tools to be part of your toolkit it probably shouldn't be your only toolkit but it definitely starts the conversation also as you see kind of drawn in here some other slides we're actually looking for corrosion pieces of equipment that really look like there may not be competent to continue to function or have fallen outside of compliance with the city ordinance itself right it's a painting etc and then looking for norm naturally occurring radioactive material which is something that's concentrated usually in a scale form inside of pieces of equipment over time and they can become elevated and so you see a meter here that's actually up against an above-ground storage tank and it's pegged off that 50 is the 50 micro Rankin's per hour is the max on that meter so you can see we've exceeded it so that piece of equipment would need to be labeled all right so that's near equipment this happens on every one of the pad sites we visited this is your minimum threshold fine leaks fine norm that needs to be labeled and information about that norm if it's becoming a concern elsewhere on the side councilmember breaks and so near equipment I remember part of our discussion last time is that the operator has to come and allow you to come in and meet you - is that to get to the near equipment on the pad site and have you had any trouble or issue with that we've had some different operators operate differently and many of the ones that we've worked with in other cities they know us since they know our crew you know everyone that's from our staff is wearing flame retardant clothing works under a very specific health and safety plan has has whopper training etc so there's a conversation that happens with most operators specifically some that maybe we don't work with as much to get them comfortable and so we had all those conversations some at the start we just told them the date we would like to be there and they said great we'd like to be there and we'll go with you others said we've been with you on all your sites just go ahead and tag the equipment tell us about it we know who you are and how your work is and we will fix the things that you find other ones it took several more more conversations before they allowed us to be on site you know I think it was Truman who said if you want enemies propose change so we met some of that spirit it's okay I'm used to it but you know what we do finds important information for everybody involved and so it's worth the effort to get there but we did get access to all the sites the city as I understand I'm not a lawyer I won't pretend to be one you have one here to counsel but the city has the the right to enter these sites to do monitoring so we did get on all the sites many of the operators will send someone with us who we actually can report the issues and they can fix it right there a cres cent wrench can do a world of good you know changing a 25 cent part can fix a problem so it helps them it allows us to actually record found it fixed it okay right and that's the end goal of all this so we did get on but there's there 's sometimes we appreciate the push from city staff to help us get on thank you all right so the second element to our inspection which is on all the moderate and all the high priority sites includes a fence line observation so if we find leaks you know what I found this is a benefit of doing this in multiple places and visiting with multiple people is when we'd find leaks when cities adopted to do essentially near equipment only find the leaks find the norm and we'll roll as they would often ask well it's had a leak how's that affecting me right now I cannot truly answer that question without data to answer that question and so some amount of fence line specific to the concerns you have have them included in the moderate and the high just to answer that question I can't go back in time and answer what was I seeing inside that so having the tools at the fence line allows us to answer that question so on the moderates you know we had a look at total volatile organic compounds right there 's another another item that can be in that gas it's seen by the FLIR methane and norm as a minimum as we move to the high we have hydrogen sulfide noise particulate matter and each of those is a good indicator of other problems they in themselves can have a criteria but they also can be an indicator to tell you there's other concerns to look at if I don't find any just like the FLIR camera then I feel comfortable there's not another concern to be looked at but that's fence line monitoring now one thing about Denton's program is you have a contingency element so if we do the fence line so I found a leak I went to the fence line I'm seeing numbers that exceed our criteria to suggest that there could be some issues that are actually leaving the pad site we have the ability to do both a short-term discrete sample collection and if needed and the city said they would like to do it we can do long-term continuous monitoring right if something is intermittent and you want to see what that level of impact I'm only there for a short window you can leave devices that can be there for a longer window so in this case you did have one pad site that had discrete monitoring done on it and actually in the bottom right you have what we call chromatogram overlay right so I have an upwind sample and I have we actually collected two downwind samples while we were there that gives us individual compounds and from the area under the curve specific concentrations so this allows me to say here's what we're seeing is in the mixture and so in this case it didn't have many of the compounds that have a low risk criteria so it did not exceed an air monitoring comparison value but there are times we've done this where it can't so this answered the question for us all right so as you remember when I was going through the my key objectives for the city a clear and concise report well I think it's clear and concise really hearing from anybody that's reviewed it would be helpful because I need to hit the audience's expectations as best I can but it has a cover letter and the cover letter really summarizes each of the sections in the report you could just read that alone it'll be the bullet point there's something I want to draw attention to you'll find it in that cover letter first and then it has a summary so we have some numerical information how many of this how many of that then behind that cover letter are the results of the compliance inspection right going against the ordinance itself and checklist items are all these here all these done we find signage issues and things that just happen over time or maybe hadn't just not been gotten to yet then we have our leak and air quality criteria the same one I showed you before right so if you 're just getting only this report the universe of this report has that in the comparison so the conversation is all inside of one place then we have the results of the near equipment work we have results of the fence line work so you actually have hard data so it's hopefully dense enough that it's helpful we have a question from councilmember miles yes sir the citizen facing interface on our website is that an output from you as well from our reports are designed to work with your program so the city is coordinating and dr. Banks can give you a lot of detail on that but the actual if I'm a citizen I go to the website and I'm clicking on items that the city made all that happen and then some of the items that will come up will be some of the reports we created addressing this to staff and you get to kind of stare at wherever you will do do we feel that that's important information for the citizen is that is there a you know meaningful health and safety aspect of that information that they would that we would expect citizens to act on one way or another you know if they you know by virtue of seeing that information yeah I think you know it's something that the residents have been asking me for when I initially started they felt that our reporting wasn't as robust and easy to understand comprehensive as they'd like to see so dr. Banks and his staff have worked to try to bring that out to you know to the public so in an easy to understand format so those folks that understand it and are interested in it can easily access it I think with dr. Trams assistance as well we've been able to give very pad sites specific information which is you know and make sure that it's updated timely tried to respond to all the concerns that we've received and all the requests for information we've been that we've taken in over the last couple years at least since I've been here as well and and I would defer to dr. Banks if you have anything to add to my answer I think I know that by now I think one of the important things is that that someone that has a well site in proximity to their home can go to that individual well site they can see how often it's being looked at how often it's being checked and what the results are and we're seeing that there are some leaks but then we back up to the fence line most cases screening criteria are not exceeded but in those that are we back we bring out additional instrumentation so it conveys what's going on at the site how the sites being operated what needs to be fixed did it get fixed so it just gives a sense for the for the citizen understand that someone is looking at it looking at it in a very sophisticated way and if there are problems on those sites getting them fixed and then assessing those problems to ensure that they're not having an off-site impact through the fence line screening and then through the contingency sampling if needed let me know if I 'm too far off the posting city attorney but if I seem to recall that from a survey of about a year ago that a lot of our citizens don't know if they're near a well sites they wouldn't know to access the information that we've shown and I you know I just I throw out for speculation now and maybe more comment later you know whether we ought to have some way to let citizens know what we know so if they know to access this information and if there's something they need to do if they see something isn't addressed that we give them the appropriate advice something that's a little more in the nature of you know not just monitoring but alerting so just a comment at this point I guess all I hate to put you on the spot like this but obviously we meet with our development services staff for a couple weeks they have the ability to hit a module in GIS system and it populates all the well sites depending where you are is that not interconnected with this particular reporting mechanism it is okay and I again I'll keep glancing over an air and make sure I'm not getting past I think what I think what Councilman Meltzer is referring to is is kind of a way of letting those citizens know about this resource and know about what's going on if they happen to not know that that well exists near their home or they don't know about the monitoring program that we have in place so I don't know if I've captured everything that I well especially if there's some action required for some possible states of the information that you provide right if we say hey there's a leak and no it hasn't been addressed I mean I don't know if our general advice this is citizens is just worry or if there's something they should do you know I mean I'd like to know that too but if there is a health and safety implication that they should do something about or monitor you know I think it would be within our our reason for being to learn them Councilmember Briggs yeah kind of on that I'm on the the gas well inspection site too as well and I don't see like a button that says file a complaint or you know if if a citizen is living near one of these gas wells and they see that you know there's been work on it or and they they have an issue I don't see an easy way for the citizen to access and report an issue on a gas well nearby their home and if I'm missing it then right there's some general contact information but I understand what you're saying I think we can look at that I 'll I'll take a stab at that with some of the public communication folks and the folks that that work on the on the website I think we can come up with something it's a good point yeah I like that idea too and can I propose that that come to the committee on citizens and get a citizen engagement this is an issue that seems like the kind of thing that's appropriate to that sub committee yeah by the way I want to say that this is all in the context of acknowledging that we're like miles past where we were a short while ago right you know pretty amazing information that is available you know we're just building on it right how can we make the best possible use of it you know in the interest of the citizens but this is great great strides for your citizens will be some of the best monitors they're there more often than we will be and so they may see things or have concerns is that that's a good way to have it addressed in the reports themselves if there's data sets are collected at our time series data we will present them as you see in the top left here so you can have an understanding of both an up and a down wind observation that was seen with comparison criteria mentioned we present the leak observations both in the optical gas imaging format and in the kind of real-world photo format so those operators can actually see exact points on the back just not say the well the component needs to be addressed because often different operators have different levels of technical capability with their tools and I'd like to give them the best head start we can when we were visiting with each of the operators on accessing the sites we submit to them documentation where we asked for permission to actually tag the sites too because nothing's even that's even better I could put a arrow on a figure but if I can actually tell you exactly where it is I know it will get taken care of some argue with that some are not some it has to work through a standard operating procedure within that company to get the okay so maybe over time we'll have that for more noise evaluations again in their time series of data so you actually have not just what the decibel level is but the composition of that noise so you're you have a sophisticated north noise ordinance here in Denton and so you know many places don't actually chop it up and say you know is this the kind of noise that's gonna be super annoying it may not be loud but it's too annoying because it exceeds your your ordinance criteria so we take it back we actually model it through there and we post it so so far like I think there are only exceedance on noise that was not related to a pad site was somebody getting the roofing done and so that that would pick that up when we model for that so and it is annoying but it goes away it's temporal and you'll have your roof replaced one day too so your question on the GIS database and framework we actually that was one of our bullet items to make this all functional so we actually created and you have actually everything mapped out for all the infrastructure not just wells but every above-ground storage tank every separator and if there are groupings of piping you know some processing elements we will assign that nomenclature as well so each of those items now will get the data we collect over in perpetuity and so this framework after all our leaks and observations are all put in here represent this year that framework and that can be added to by the city or queried in any number of fashions from the citizen you know outreach element to more so my goal is that any data we collect is useful to more than just me and so we wanted to make sure we have a framework a good foundation again a benefit of something doing this many times and thinking about how can we improve it and so I hope it will be better yet but I think it's a robust at least platform what we start with all right so we did our inspection so for the first half of the year we touched all the moderates we touched all the highs and we touched half of the lows right that was the framework set up for the performance of the work and we if we identified something as what we refer to as an action item we refer to as an identified action item all right so something that initially upon our inspection requires some corrective action the answer could be that the operator has using a piece of equipment that has a low bleed and if they communicate and we get the spec sheets right that would be picked up by our equipment but be functioning normally so that would not be an action item but it would be something we identified same for some other pieces of equipment but the all-in total of items that needed to be at least addressed in one form or another or identified action items we reached out to the operators upon finding these and in about two week window so 14 days generally we'll give them time to address those report back sometimes with photos sometimes with you know a narrative and we'll record those the communication back to us so the report is representative at the time that it goes out of what we found and what the operator communicate has been addressed if the operator has not addressed that they've addressed something or it will be outside of the time period that we're working with like replacement of equipment there's excessive corrosion that might be a longer they might shut the well in and address the corrosion later that would be registered as an outstanding action item and there'll be one more category going forward called a verified action item right where either we've inspected it or a city inspector has verified that something's been repaired just gives you a different threshold of understanding of what that action was so the report is kind of focused on those areas we generated 134 reports their pad site specific so that encompasses 233 wells that were inspected and we put together the draft in June and in July we're finishing the inspections and this month we're finishing all the tabulation actually they probably done except I brought Zack with me he's the one has actually been out to probably every one of your wells I didn't Zach I felt like he needed some honorable mention he's he always says I send him out when it's the coldest day or the hottest day I swear and it usually is it probably it's honest just how it works all right so that said to kind of share kind of some inventory information with you nothing's better than going actually touching all of these to give you a hard number of where you are at so this gives you a list of the operators in numerical order from so at most being first down to Eagle Ridge with the most both wells and pad sites but now you have actually the number of separators and a member of above ground storage tanks we actually added a pad site during our inspection we actually didn't get paid any more for it but it would be irresponsible to take a pad site that was no wells but just separators and above ground storage tanks and leave it there uninspected because we're paid by the well anyway so that's why that you have an asterisk on there we've added one because it needed to be added all right so that said pad sites by operator so a pad site that can have one well could have ten wells this gives you a makeup of what your population is so obviously Eagle Ridge has you know 39% of your pad sites if we look at it by operator so your largest operator and if I look over by Wells 35% just gives you a good composition and obviously they are very similar because you have many pad sites that are one Wells only there are many urban environments where we have probably five is the average and there's ten and twelve so a lot more driving now the total inspected so as I look at them you know present the metrics that are here right so we had those low priorities those are every other year so those drop out so this would be all the highs all the moderates and those half of the low priority wells that are included in our first half of the year inspection and that would get you to the number of 134 pad sites that's why we had 134 ports 233 wells and then the number of separators and above ground storage tanks that you see so from those so our initial pass through right so either we found no action item right so they had all the compliance elements were there we did not find leaks on those pad sites and we did not find norm exceedances that were not properly labeled or any other item that was an exceed ance of our criteria so you can see all those in green in the yellow or items that were reported to the operator and they addressed every one of the items that we reported them so fix those leaks address the norm issues there's more signage there are a few other issues and then the red ones that you see in here were outstanding action items from our first pass this is a northern half of Denton and this is the southern half so this just gives you kind of nothing's better than actually seeing it on a map to me yes in the case of outstanding action items what tools do we have at our disposal for you know for putting some pressure on the operator for putting some some teeth in this sure you know nothing's better than actually showing up right you know what when it's a known right so you can you now communicate the operator and you're like my expectation is you will fix the corrosion you'll label the norm some of these are not heavy lifts right and some operators really they just didn't know it wasn't like they were you know flavoringly violating anything on purpose it was just brought to their attention but the time period was longer than the 14 days that we gave them so factor that in because to your very points almost like a plan of Judith that question right so Heather over there had inspections done immediately after finding any outstanding items right so that's good that we have some that have been addressed but we really have some concerns about those that just have registered is not addressed and so every one of those actually the City of Dallas or sorry City of Denton went out and those are the ones that are now in blue here right so this is the same map just a different backdrop right so those blue ones have now been addressed the ones that are in white were those low priority every other year so they were not inspected so there's some weight to bear it's just bringing attention to things well that's how you get things addressed right and you'll never fix a problem by saying it 's not there so good functionality on that now the yellow ones are ones that are now in the course of those normal inspection practices either by us or by your city staff are now being verified right that extra criteria so that's happening now but the outstanding ones that were left out they made it a priority to to visit and get some action on the councilmember breaks that question just a comment because if you look at the first map of Southern Denton a lot of the outstanding action items are right there in neighborhoods in a lot of the newer developments which is a concern so seeing the ones that had been addressed is positive but that that's a concern when you look and you see all of that red and then you see all the development in homes that are nearby and schools so correct I mean proximity to a sensitive concern you know is and should be a top priority so some cities just have a as I said before right just near equipment and it didn't matter if I was 75 feet from something I'm concerned about or 7500 feet so I think they should be weighed differently and that's how your program is set up I think that that's we're being responsive try to the voices they hear all right so on the fence line to sum up some of the fence line criteria elements so as I mentioned we had one it was pad site number 33 that actually had an exceedance of the fence line criteria we went and took discrete samples during that period during that event so we knew that that criteria didn't exceed an air monitoring comparison value right a regulatory threshold where if it did exceed then the conversations elevated to the appropriate entity you know so corrective action can be made so we were able to make that distinction by using the equipment and the tools that we have hydrogen sulfide definitely there are detections that they do exist I know we often present and the oil and gas operators will say well we've never had any hydrogen sulf ide in the Barnett shale we're not really sour gas right if we head out to Mid land and Odessa nothing against them but you'll know when you step off the plane because there's more sour gas out there and impacts their air shed so here just that most of the tools that operator are using the detection limits are too high to see right where those concerns are 10 ppm is not a satisfactory level to start with when five parts per billion is you know your threshold to have odor concerns and nuisance issues right you need to get equipment that can detect down there so nothing exceeded the criteria to become a nu isance off-site there are some detections on-site but they're well below worker health and safety so just keep them there less leaks less of those radiation definitely there's some actually some exceedances and action items were noted with that on-site we did not have an exceedance off-site there are places we inspect where there are numbers that are at the edge of the fence line that are a concern so you do not have that here some of that's ge ologic some of that's operators some that's equipment used by operators a lot of choices go into why you might have that scale buildup over time it becomes worse methane we actually have a threshold where if we find methane that would be indicative of other things that might be leaving the site but we didn't have any our criteria exceeded there particulate matter the same and we actually compared against the national ambient air quality standard which is a very conservative threshold to start with so we didn't have exceedances in that during your production work and then noise one was the hammers that I mentioned and then another one is a compressor that's pretty close to house and it's right on the edge of the criteria where you may want corrective action and you know since it's on the list of things that will be checked again we'll check it again if we can get access to more sensitive points to take the readings that would be the way to answer the question definitively so it's kind of remaining on the list of that's one to learn a little more about yes is it at the discretion of the operator to give you the access or no yeah that's what I thought I thought the city is there right well yeah we could get anywhere on the pad side now we're I want to I want to I want to be at the edge of the homeowners property right that's that's where I want to be yes so that's that's the discretionary which I'm not gonna barge in there the city actually can but I'm sure they'll be interested to know that the house is actually vacant at the time when we were there and so we just want to have permission to be on the on the private property of course thank you you bet councilmember Melton city attorney is if I'm not mistaken does the ultimate ability to have sort of you know forceful correction it doesn't that reside within TCEQ only and then there's two ways to actually go about it whenever we see a violation and an operator has not corrected it then we certainly have the the option of refer to TCEQ for further enforcement and that's consistent with what under one of the mechanisms for enforcement under the Texas Clean Air Act the second method is for us to actually file a civil lawsuit as against the operator which we would then have to plead in TCEQs but before we initiate that we have to give them notice of our intent and they have 90 days in which to act upon it failure to act then we can proceed to file the lawsuit so and that mechanism was reinforced by the Texas Supreme Court about a year year and a half ago in the BCCA versus City of Houston case so I mean I think the great thing about this program is that first of all I'm pining a little bit here but you know I think it's mostly in the operators interest to correct these because it's their product they're losing and you know I think this is a great application of Hawthorne effect you know if people know that they're being measured and monitored they tend to improve their own behavior especially when it's in their own interest but if we have just neglig ent actors I'm not saying we do but if we if we do is it part of your process to escalate to to TCEQ or how does what's the flow I guess the question is have we ever referred any complaints to TCEQ based on any of the inspections trim or do we have a process where we would at some threshold which may never have occurred I'll tell you how it would work most likely here now anything we collect I would work in concert with the city the city is the informed entity that would be expressing the interest on you know on behalf of their citizens but I have gone to the TCEQ what we're collecting is you know scientifically valid and defensible data right from that you can actually communicate a concern that 's in an analytical fashion right then the conversation with the TCE Q is not I don't like the conversation is this numbers here here's the criteria and we're exceeding that now is that a short term there's there 's there's an area of conversation of what that means and you know duration and elements of that nature we collect what we can when we're in the field but the TCEQ is interested in anything that shows that again it is indicative of a condition that would be unsafe or exceed their criteria there are there's the ability to pull other entities in as well if the radiation for example is exceeding and it's gone off a pet site or exceeds number we might have the Department of State Health Services right there's there's any number you also have the city have your own ordinance criteria right so if those are exceeding so it depends on what the exceedance is and the concern but in concert with the city that's when you would communicate the specific concern with the data to support why you had that concern to then elevate the discussion and then what it invites is a whole lot more scrutiny and monitoring on that to to reach a resolution and so by and large the information leads to self-correction you're correct if we didn't have any police watching speed limits we'd probably drive differently not saying I have a great appreciation for them I hold them up here all right that said I'm just somewhere along as I've answered all the questions that were around that point okay so if we were to summarize identified action items right just how many sites did we visit that had something that likely needed to be addressed so 57% of them had an action item something that can be improved upon and addressed and I'll show you how the rest happened with that if I if I take that and subdivide it by individual operators all right so I'd cut the pie this way 42% of them with one specific operator again having the bulk of the wells now I'll do this in a second where I actually do it on a per well basis so you can actually put things in context because if one person has nearly half your wells obviously they're gonna have more by nearly half of your action items too but this gives you kind of a 20,000 foot level what those concerns are oh councilmember Briggs I have a question about the 258 identified action items and so this was just in 2018 and so I'm thinking okay so that seems like a lot of items does that mean that within the last year these things popped up or does that mean that our inspections division was not catching them before well here's a balance of this is your inspection divisions weren't given some of the same tools we have right so this is should not reflect poorly on operations of the city trying to do what they can with the tools and the rules that they have we we I have the benefit of having done this for a long period of time in a lot of different environments and so some of what we bring to the table in the equipment choices procedural choices what criteria to grab so they would know to compare against so I start with an advantage but and I would rather bring everything to it to the attention of the operator some of them are a sticker put a sticker on I can make a lot of these go away so now every one of the things I'm presenting here was an imminent threat or endangerment in fact none of my staff was in danger during any of the inspection criteria and as you saw the fence line criteria from a VOC standpoint and all those other parameters did not give us an indication there was an offside concern and so I don't believe they altered their operations when we showed up but so I just wanted to give you that and put that in context but there are definitely items that could be improved right well I'm just trying to get an idea so next time you come to present to us is the 258 gonna be kind of consistent or will that number be lower because I think it will be lower mainly do some of the comments that were made earlier okay as generally what I have seen when we've begun a process some was just communicating right the operators themselves also don't have some of the equipment that we use so they just assume it's okay thank you you bet if I wanted to drill down like you know what are your individual action items that were concerned obviously leaks were number one that should be probably not a surprise to anyone norm exceedances in this case these are norm exceedances that were not labeled right 50 micro rankin per hour is a threshold number where that piece of equipment is considered to be norm contaminated it needs to be stamped or tagged corrosion is your your next item that of course is are kind of the big ones then the other ones were smaller items some of them ordinance specific some just operationally you're gonna have a problem shortly if you don't fix type items that gives you kind of a good listing of those same 258 now this is when I've at least equalized it all by well so if you do that by well right so if you remember Eagle Ridge is your largest operator in the city and they're you know just a little over point four action items per well now XTO shows a bad because they only have two wells and they had two action items so that show up as a one so these are not bad numbers if I was just going to compare other places that we inspect we have instances where it's two three even four times per well so there's a benefit to having the crew that you have doing the work that you're doing and then maybe sending a letter saying we're coming out and doing some inspection as well this gives you context at least councilmember Nelson so you're in addition to the work that you do we send out Rod Weatherby correct right yeah which adds frequency but does it does he pick out does he pick up things that you wouldn 't pick up I mean you have the equipment to pick up a lot of things that he couldn't possibly but is there is there any kind of thing that he would pick up that wouldn't be visible to you I think we would capture everything that he would capture but he just gives you an overlay that increases the frequency gives you an immediate response time if needed and also now with the addition of getting this level of data you know at least once a year for the majority of sites you know you know every one of them that are moderate or high he has the benefit of looking through our list and verifying these specific items going forward and which will find and you do this enough there's key points on a pad site that are commonly where the leaks will be right those are the pieces of equipment that commonly have failures or have components that will you know just over time naturally need to be replaced so he adds the frequency and probably a nice balance to what we're doing this is the same slide really just giving you a pie chart version so you can see you know how much is leak norm and corrosion that makes up really by by and large the bulk of your action items now I have in here kind of a similar breakdown for addressed action items and outstanding action items but I know you've been in here with a lot of talking already so they're here if you want me to dive down into it the biggest take home is the number that were there and really the number with outstanding action items at the end of our two right our 14 days our two weeks that we gave them only 13% remained of the action items we found so in general I'd say you have a responsive operator class that was interested in addressing things because you're gonna have things we have to buy equipment it has to be shipped to you and you got to replace it to fix certain number of the things we found so that's not a bad percentage to end up with I like when people fix things again the the mixture of who had you know outstanding action items is similar to your well composition and the universe of things that had no action items versus action items that were addressed and outstanding this just gives you those three criteria or categories all together all right so this is more of a narrative summary but you know we identified 162 individual leaks which were primarily methane in nature I'm using optical gas imaging and by June 2018 all of those leaks were at least either verified by your staff or reported to us as addressed so that's pretty darn good and that would be my number one concern if I was a citizen would be those leaks individually and because that's probably the most likely I could call the concern to them offside as far as exceed ances of norm naturally occurring radioactive material we had 35 points which were unlabeled there are actually more that have radiation but they're properly labeled right that's a sign that your staff is doing some of the things they need to do to find radiation and ask for it to be properly labeled that is actually a benefit not to the op not only to the operator for health and safety standpoint not only compliant with the Railroad Commission rules but also kind of a health and safety concern all these pad sites have a lifespan and when they're done these metal this metal will be scrapped and who knows what it is next the reason we look at norm today is because in the 80s and inspector from the EPA said I wonder where all the piping goes and it turned out because there was no inspection they didn't have the tools to be looking at oil and gas in this part of Louisiana they ended up being reused as bleachers at a high school and so everybody was sitting on highly radioactive bleachers right so there's a reason we have this is a reason we have labeling and I know often the operators fill on an annoyance but it's part of how we communicate the issues on a pad site because that piece of equipment is not gonna live here only for it's you know all of its life maybe more than you wanted to know but there's a reason we do some of the things we do fence line monitoring we had to we had pad site number 33 that's the one had the VOCs and had the sampling taken and number seven had the elevated noise that was related to people fixing a roof and 138 is the one that we'd like to re-inspect next next pass through just to see if there's a concern there so you're you're operating in an environment where there's not a whole lot of activity right now but you mentioned you've been doing this for for some time yes sir you know we anticipate or I suppose we might anticipate that at some point there will be a lot of activity you know just I don't I guess I'm asking you to comment on that because you're saying hey this is all looking pretty good but nobody's really doing anything with these wells is that so you mean like the majority of them are shut in or they 're you know I got actively being fractured yeah you know there we look at the lifespan of a pad site right you have first the drilling happens right and that raised me roughly maybe a couple days to a little bit over a week per well it depends on what they're doing and how they're doing it and there is certain annoyance and air quality considerations that are different some of them much different we're talking here and we've monitored those and so that's that's set up and how we do it is completely different the second phase is when they hydraulically fracture and then the flow back element the flow back element I actually have a lot more emissions of VOCs methane especially when they were open tank systems in play and so we've done monitoring continuous monitoring both on pad sites using you know optical equipment that actually allows us to be off the stuff but actually have real-time numbers above their operations as well as in a perimeter system so we know a good bit about that and how to monitor for that and you're correct no we're not seeing those right now in the barnet shale price of gas probably has a lot to do with that cheaper plays in the nation that they can get to stuff has something to do with that and then the third phase of a pad sites like the hydraulic fraction by the way is also probably days to weeks generally there are short workovers and things that happen but those are very short but the production life is you know for a good well can be 20 or 30 years right so you may have a long-term neighbor and sometimes the operators change in the life of that pad site specifically during production and so the the big guys who had lots of funding to put in the first well and complete those first two stages they might step away and you have a smaller guy with a smaller budget a smaller guy with a smaller budget and so when you have a piece of equipment that you know no piece of equipment is gonna last forever it all requires maintenance and observation and inspection and we've handed to people that have to work on a smaller budget so you know in this case this was a way back to your point that this is you know who stands to improve or get the most gain out of this is the operator themselves you know what you have happen here is this inspection the the dollars that are already spent for the city for their current inspection fees can now provide them probably a greater data density to address some of those things and there are operators well when they we first meet them right we're at the you know propose change make enemies but you know some of those operators now report use our reports to send in to their corporate etc so I mean the data is helpful but it's also important for just understanding how operations are if there's concerns so they they get addressed early that's when you want to address them not when bigger concerns have happened or a chronic risk issue is going on so I kind of got off on my tangent there for you but I hope I answered well it's really you know sort of seeing if you were wanted to give us any advice on you know how our regimen might need to change if we're coming into an environment you know with different gas prices yes where there's gonna be more active fracking and I've visited with dr. banks on several elements before and so if if if monitoring or inspection is needed on those absolutely it can be done and both your on-site staff has some experience with those you know changes to do as well but we have equipment that can be set in the field and run to answer those questions again indicative monitoring to say there's a problem let's go back to the source and see what that problem is and fix it now but we can change and we can adjust one element it's actually mentioned here will be in the report as well is post-production so I'm gonna add a fourth phase of life to that pad site that's when it leaves and when it leaves you want to make sure all the concerns go with it so they are quality concern will likely leave but there's some residual elements where the Railroad Commission rules probably don't 100% mesh up with maybe some of the expectations of rede velopers who are coming to build and so there's a way to do post-production inspections and we were doing that for several cities now because we're reaching the part of the timeline where they're leaving and what you want to do is have something that memorializes not just where the well was with you know high resolution GPS information but where the you know the separator was the tanks were those secondary containment and you want to make sure there's no subgrade leaks because some of these systems will use piping that actually goes off the pad site and that's led to some issues some catastrophic in other states so we don't want that here and so we'll make sure that that's not occurring and then of course the scaling and the radiation related materials and norm that can be left behind so there's ways to record all that and then just confirm and then get all the paperwork that goes with the actual plugging that well so it lives in one place so five ten years from now they're calling dr. banks of Sam by in a neighborhood and I'm gonna set it up all in here we can't tell me about these wells well here's your report with all the data I'll kind of memorialize in one place so it's useful I only say that as you could you ask what what else is out there that's another item that probably is gonna be useful to you in the years to come and councilmember breaks has a question so it's kind of my question is about the summary report but also going back to the the summary report that we looked at with the maps and the the wells labeled yes because in the first like say southern the one the area that I mentioned where the homes are they're red and then you go to the the map and it's blue and it says the operator address the action items which to me would be complete correct but here some of these are listed just take well 138 for example which has been mentioned throughout the report as kind of an issue but when I look at it on this map it seems like it's okay sure so what you have is the first half of the year we did the inspections and the report was written okay your staff was motivated to address those and said hey we would like to make sure they see what's going on today so I had a draft report and then additional stuff happened and so we wanted to put them together so you weren't left with the moves really to speak to your question which is I see a lot of red where there's a lot of residential areas who's on that and so your staff was on that and that's why you have those blue dots but our report in its initial draft form first half the year doesn't have that map that was presented for this presentation but that's a good question I didn't mean to they're not like totally diametrically opposed one represents when they were found they were read by us when your city staff went and communicate with the offers and said we 're going out here and making sure you've done these things you didn't do it in the first 14 days if they asked you to do it have you done it since and several than they said hey we'll get to it in 20 days or whatever the city went and prioritized going to inspect each of those to make sure they were done okay so for instance 138 that has been complete correct in fact that's my next okay thank you yeah except for this one right here with the noise right so that brings to know that's exactly your point right somebody's gonna believe we were talking beforehand because you're asking questions that lead to my next click but that or that means I'm trying to anticipate what the questions would be to me if I was sitting there watching it too so another thing that we identified when we're out in the field is the priority of the pad sites you know the recommendations were based on specific distances to sensitive uses and so in the process of doing this what turns out development happens things change and so two of those pad sites we brought to the attention of the city that probably should be elevated to a high because there's been developments near them and one actually the building that was there has been since demolished and there's nothing to keep it in that high priority status if you're going to use those so for example this is one of them right so we were within 220 feet and 60 feet you know to new development and then here's one where they've added on to it and actually built in 2017 and so it's 130 feet so these were both elevated we brought to the attention of city staff and they said yeah we want to move those up we 're sensitive to what's going on at the fence line for those and this it was interesting the pad sites actually being used as a parking lot by these guys here so I don't see that very often all right so post-production reporting I mentioned it here it's a summary report that has some elements that you may want to consider so these are three pad sites that have now been plugged right they were originally on our conceptual list of what to inspect in the meantime they 've finished their life and they've been plugged so I would suggest you know going and getting that information and either producing it internally or if we can assist you with the inspections we do we can do it while we're doing all the other things that are out there but it's it's good to memorialize what the conditions are like councilman breaks on a plugged well isn't it potentially still leaking or or no I mean if a well has been plugged does that mean it's all okay because I thought that there had been one in the past that was plugged that had caught fire so unfortunately nothing is absolute now when they are plugged there's a step of procedures that happens that should result in not only being plugged but being plugged way beyond where we are going to have usable groundwater depth right so that's going to be you know at least a thousand feet or more that there's been you know sufficiently plugged components of the well are all plugged equal are all the operators equal on all that or not and so I'm more of a trust but verify guy on some of that and so that's part of what we do in a post-production monitoring event so we're not only monitoring with open gas or optical gas imaging which would see like those 10,000 above we'll take equipment out that can see one part per million I'm looking for just even if I could it doesn't really belong here am I seeing something that gives me a clue there's something going on but yes they can be a problem and you know even when you think of wells that were plugged 10 15 20 30 years ago you know we do a lot related to environmental due diligence for development we have operators that are unwilling I say operators now there's more like a retail sense you know developers that are very sensitive to developing around or near wells by the potential limitation of them because we're like well may not be leaking today we've done all our inspections cut it in the future so we 've actually our engineering group has worked with designs of building so you actually would have a passive collection should it ever have a problem so not everyone trusts that everything's there it's a trust but verify element and so this is a way to at least take that first step in a post-production way and do the monitoring for that that's a good point in July we completed all the high inspections for the second time through in general we saw decreases in some of those action items because some of them have been addressed and so we will have 30 inspection reports Zach would probably have finished in the day except I made him come here in case there was very specific questions so he'd be present and then we'll have verify as a new action item element right so if it's been verified by a third party and then you know next steps your program should continue and at least use the framework that we've built we 'd love to assist you again because there's more tweaks and things that we can do but you should at least use the framework going forward to record that data so you can make better decisions better data better decisions I have a question slide I have two slides after this I can either show you now or after your questions because I was asked to show you something by dr. banks because he thought you would have interest in this it's not as fun as the guys that were fixing the power lines either much better thank you if I could ask Zach a question you bet Zach you're up sorry I love it I yield the podium I yield the time so I just want to you know going out to the site I just want to get a snapshot day in the life so you you you show up at quote unquote the shop you you know so kind of walk me through that you look at where you're going does that God what equipment you grab just kind of walk me through that process we bring pretty much everything that we've got every time we go out that way if we run into something that we didn't expect we've got the stuff we need to kind of look at it we'll calibrate some stuff first thing in the morning make sure everything's operating correctly once we arrive at a site we'll calibrate again just to make sure nothing's changed and then from there it's just you know go through our inspection we kind of follow the same report that you've seen we bring that with us and go through each section just step by step so is there so someone you meet there I presume or not always it depends it depends on the operator who's available that day but usually someone will meet us there kind of open the gate we'll meet with them go through our health and safety make sure they know what we're doing there are times where no one meets us out there they just give us the code we go in and we do our thing okay and one last thing so what is kind of the going nervous or what do you have to generally calm if anything so operator or the person let you in says has this question traditionally that you have to address to kind of ease their concerns about you being there is there something that regularly comes up like that by the time we 're doing the inspections no we try to handle all that beforehand just let them see who we are what kind of data we produce that gives them a lot of comfort but usually once once we're showing up I mean they seem to understand that we're just there to do our job okay so there's a call before you know the call before and in those questions exactly that would usually come up before then you got it okay thank you yes sir I'll go councilmember priest and then council member member maltzer it's just a technical question on the leaks because you had a lot of leaks but generally if you find them that helps the operator right because then there's less leakage and more that's correct the assumption is there in the natural gas business and would like to capture natural gas right sometimes that's an assumption I don't mean to knock them off they know I just we're good everybody but yes you know it depends who you're having a conversation with so for example if I'm having a conversation with a pumper he might be more nervous or she that I'm finding a leak because it may represent they're not doing everything they can do to find a leak right so I've kind of upset the apple cart a little bit their manager for the same reason like well now I'm not on top of my guys I'm not doing what I should but somebody as you go high enough up they care about that natural gas being in the pipeline for the sales so it just depends who I'm talking with at the end of all of this the end result is if we if they understand we're collecting good data and that data is actionable data they will it will immediately result in higher gas being captured we will get there but that initial back and forth you know as Zach kind of mentioned some of them get very comfortable probably more comfortable than I would like you know I like it when they are physically there because we're not gonna fix their leaks you know we've got liability insurance but we're there on behalf of the city and we're not gonna climb around on equipment and I'm not getting my crescent wrench out there 's many times I would like to but we will tag it and communicate it to them but there's a liability to take on for the city that it was inappropriate to do so a big selling point of modern geosciences I'm sure you'd agree is because of the kind of equipment you've got you could pick up you know a great greater variety of pollutants right then just monitoring for methane but are we actually seeing you know violations or catching emissions in any of those things out in the long list you know right we could test for cinnamon nutmeg in all space but they're not gonna be there sure you know the you know the hard part of any environmental compliance project is proving the negative and so there's a lot of that to this right so people get very comfortable it turns out you know success is a horrible teacher right because people get very complacent and comfortable I've never seen it until you do so these tools are there to not only identify the when you do and I can tell you I have seen exceedances there actually were exceedances in Denton in the original TCEQ study it was it was done on fence lines so they exist you know but operated even in a semi you know efficient manner most pad sites should be okay it's the ones that have you know a problem and maybe have a very poor maintenance record that can lead to a significant problem you know on and off site so that I can tell you is there's a reason why we bring every piece of equipment we bring and for every one of them I've seen a problem over time some of those problems are more specific to drilling or work over or hydraulic fracture but they can happen because what people are doing on a pad site or when they move equipment on and off changes and so if you have certain piece of equipment then right my mindset of what the target chemicals of concern are gonna be will change too and so just like you heard from Zach that's the reason we bring all those out and that's the reason we 've developed a framework that will capture when they're there when they're not I'll say more than the equipment there's a little bit of process procedure and training and familiarity with the equipment and the leaks they it's 50/ 50 first I want to thank Ken Banks and for coming up with this this plan and modern geosciences for the incredible work you guys are doing without belaboring the point too much I mean the difference between this and what we had before is it's it's night and day and this is what our I believe the people of Denton deserve and so anyway I just can't overstate just how thrilled I am with this I want to say I'm in favor of all of the suggestions listed here I could I could list them but but they're all in this line including you know most of all continued inspections inspections in 2019 the confirmatory noise survey for pad site 138 the idea of post-production inspection to me that's critical and and now is the point in time chronologically I mean when you know when we should be looking towards that so yeah so I I support all of the suggestions several questions on top of that one and I would love to go out on an inspection with your staff is that possible not excellent I mean so that you probably want to communicate with the operator and get it all set and we can tell you ones that are good ones to visit where you might see a host of different things but we've we've taken city staff and you know people from City Council to pad sites before excellent yeah I said sure but it's really your role Dr. Banks great yeah I would love that and and second is I was kind of looking around your website that modern Geosciences website it looks to me so you do have done elsewhere a gas plant work with gas plants as well or not so much I was trying to figure out how much you do on that that side we very little I mean there was a concern voice before hey they work for industry or what have you but really the only like gas operators we had any work with was when a city mandated and they had to pay and so they had to engage us to pay a lot I'm sorry that's not your question I mean but we've definitely been inspected yeah we've definitely inspected a host of processing facilities just about anything well a lot of things that can leak we've we've been out to yeah so that was that was kind of my sense that you that you inspect you know whatever anything that can leak contains produces my job is to get some actionable data to answer the question yeah so I you know I would like to see you know to propose for you know features the staff staff report our work session it can have consideration of to see if modern Geosciences could do some regular checking in on our on our gas plant and you know applying the same same kind of tools because there are so many concerns in the the community same kind of concerns about gas wells having to do with leaks and since this is a new you know source source of generation it would I think it would do a lot for the for public trust note knowing that we're doing our due diligence because they do such a good job of doing theirs and and then finally and and thirdly I I would love to see if you all would be interested in including modern Geosciences at least kind of having them present in the room when it comes time for us to next discuss our gas well ordinance to have and maybe that was part of the plan anyway I've been on your advisory committee okay for two so you know I pay me I 'll show up to your advisory committee and offer yeah well that yeah that would be great I mean to have on on hand the people who do this you know on a regular basis are you I'm sorry are you referring to the reverse setback discussion that's forthcoming yes okay yeah yeah thank you you bet council member Dutton yeah I guess you know what is like 160 leaks that you found I'm kind of curious about the magnitude of those leaks I would assume that probably most of them are pretty small everyone was probably in exceeding 10,000 parts per million and many of them are actually a hundred percent by volume so it depends on your definition of small yeah there are there are some that we saw that are very significant in the volume like if I was gonna measure the mass you know that's actually been released you know there are things that you know as a firm that also helps with greenhouse gas inventories you know I look at that volume like that's a big volume is having an impact there are some smaller ones like shown in the videos right the smaller ones show up better because you can see a pinpoint leak you know probably in general probably true for what we saw here probably 10% of them are really very significant leaks that you know probably it's like a gross amount of methane way beyond what the operator would probably even consider a normal fugitive emission loss and probably the the larger ones are smaller leaks but they're under enough pressure right so visually they expand out for a good bit so you know the only way to know that mass is actually do some compliance testing where you actually put equipment on you and all that would make this so prohibitively expensive you the operator needs to answer his questions or her questions on compliance but there definitely are some big ones in there probably the most significant ones that we find I think from a health and safety concern and I've only seen probably about four or five of these through the Mexi-Metroplex are subgrade leaks because those are ones where operators are not paying attention to the piping that's underneath will often you know one out of one pipeline will fail one out of one piece of equipment will fail but when you have a release it 's outside of where they're paying attention to if you parked a truck over it if you had an ignition source near it that's the ones you read about in the paper and those lines sometimes go further so those are the kind of things again you can't crawl over every you know bit of a pad site or the dirt that you 're walking around but with an optical gas imaging camera it stands out so we've thankfully seen and fixed several of those but those are the ones I would say are kind of leaning towards the more catastrophic capability side that you want to capture early just to comment I would think that these operators would live you love you guys because they can't afford any catastrophic things they can 't afford it well they show their love in different ways any other questions I think you said you had a couple of additional slides you know in talking to dr. banks he's like well how does our our city stack up with some other ones you deal with now a lot of cities are different and what they have us inspect right this needs to be customized to what they wanted to know we certainly offer advice and suggestions but flower mound haslet and dentin have enough similarities in the approach for evaluating leaks and norm that I can at least give you kind of a you know a presentation you know if I do it by well again just so I've equalized the best I can larger ones and smaller ones if we just look at the number of leaks you slightly outrank you know on a per well basis what we see in haslet and what we see in flower mound which for your first round through that ain't too bad and then as far as norm exceedances now in this case this is equipment not just is it labeled not labeled this is norm is above 50 just want to know where is the more more radiation occurring and again that can be formation specific it can be operators that don't do a lot of maintenance and removing scale so a lot of things can cause it but this just gives you a common way of saying this is what we found doing the same process on them but you're much less than we see in flower mound again not a knock on them it's just there's some older wells older equipment that have some elevated norm there so improved maintenance so again back to you know if you're an inspected or someone's looking you kind of behave a little differently or if you know it may be counterintuitive but towards the end of your life demand for a pad site you might know that those pieces of equipment now become more valuable to me to recycle than they do for production equipment I might step up some of the d scaling and things we do so I can knock it down below a number so it's not norm contaminated I can actually recycle it easier because all that scale will have to come out and that scale will have to be disposed of so it's a balance of things and there's more variables and I can put my finger on for you but it's just good if I had to use a yardstick this gives you you know you're in the ball park for some and your norm looks pretty good and I would expect your leak rate to go down over time do you think this is sort of a big enough sample to mean much or do you think that you know leaks per well by city will likely just sort of bounce around to a certain extent by chance you know the biggest variable here so I think it's good because this is a snapshot the same time right you're in the same formation generally speaking Barnett shale if I looked at a different period of time when price gases were different amongst the wells then it would be exactly that I think there's a certain percentage of wells that are just shut in now right because of the gas prices but I would I have no reason not to believe that it wouldn't be a similar percentage and make up here versus Hasslett let's say versus flat amount but again there's a lot of variables that go into it but it's just a snapshot I wouldn 't change anything you're doing based on this data just information straight question a little out of order but have we gotten to the point with any of the unremediated cases where fines have been issued for violations I don't even know if we have fines or that is that a that only be like a TCEQ level the TCEQ can certainly find an operator they have that ability and not since these Texas Supreme Court ruled on that issue in the Houston case yeah and you've not had some that probably rise to that tension you know if an operator is taking steps to actually address a problem usually encouragement I mean I 'll let you guys be in charge of the stick or the carrot but yeah you know I think when you know Heather contacted them and and communicated these are expectations on these things you didn't get to in the 14 days you obviously saw a response but it's something like 13% I think it said we're unremediated and that was my snapshot yeah and then that 13% has been addressed as satisfaction of the city post okay so so this is a little bit of a yeah so yeah the only other item was to give you kind of some specific things to consider when you're looking at your post-production so this is gives you some kind of an example the slides in there so you have it for later but these are the items that typically I'd say are to include if I was looking at this and doing due diligence for someone who wanted to buy a property these would be the questions that I would have and so capturing those now just allowed to live in perpetuity that 's actually my last slide any other questions all right thank you very much thank you thank you very much you bet thanks for the opportunity so we will move on to agenda item 3d which is receive a report hold a discussion give staff direction regarding an overview of the gas well inspection divisions goals and accomplishments process improvements and budget in preparation for 1819 afternoon counsel Ken banks I'm general manager of utilities I will try to fast-track this I know we've we've spent a lot of time on the gas well issues already some of the slides are overlaps as well so I'll kind of run through those pretty quick so our accomplishments for 1718 we're basically to contract for the enhanced inspections that we've talked about build up our GS map GIS mapping capabilities revise the website and the gas well locator map to prevent provide more information for our citizens and then complete all of our standard inspections that we were doing and follow-up inspections that we were doing in-house and just to give you a sense of how much that really is I pulled these numbers on June 29th and I I want to say I certainly appreciate modern geosciences and all the work that they've done and the semi -annual inspections that Rod Weatherby does but I also want to point out that Rod does a number of what we refer to as spot checks and that information is on the website now so he's going out and not necessarily doing a full inspection but visiting these sites and making sure that everything looks good it's kind of a quick pass inspection on some of our higher priority wells and so all said and done from January 1 2018 through June 29 we had about 1 ,567 inspections of some type done by these groups so our goals are to really improve our outreach and communication with the public and the well operators thank you Councilwoman Briggs and Ms. Armentor for the advice there and we'll certainly look into that we also want to really provide some cross- training opportunities with watershed gas well inspections is now a a working in conjunction with watershed so they do a lot of the same type of work they're going out they're doing inspections of various types out in the environment using monitoring equipment so what we're trying to do is we're trying to cross train those individuals so that we can get more eyes out in the field and have more skill sets to be able to use these equipment on both the watershed side and on the gas well side and then of course we want to improve inspections and data management efficiency through technology we've added some computer and software technologies to the to the gas well inspection group for example so one of the issues that we talked about the last time that we were going through the budget and kind of contemplating the idea of outside contracting versus in- house was the concept of could we do this work in-house and what would that look like how much would it cost currently the gas well inspections group has one employee within that particular fund that we've got a larger group of people because we're cross training with watershed they've got three vacant FTEs keep in mind that this fund is completely funded by gas well inspection fees and we are seeing those fees start to come down because we're starting to have some plugged wells in the city so they're no longer generating the fees so in October 2017 you as a council approved the modern Geosciences contract and this contract was for one year term it will expire in October of this year so one of the things I'd like to talk about and hopefully provide some better information to you this go-around is what are the cost what would the cost look like if we did a program like this in-house versus the the cost that we are currently putting out as the modern Geosciences contract so I would like to seek direction from the council because we are in the budget season as to where we would like to to go with that particular issue increasing the staffing levels I want everyone to understand that it would involve both the actual full-time employees and then they would also have to have vehicles and some other associated equipment to be able to travel to these sites plus the instrumentation necessary so right now this is the number of FTEs that we have in the gas well inspections position summary so you'll see in 1617 that we had an actual of just one and then that is Rod Weatherby's position and 1718 and 1819 we've got budgeted for four positions this is the budget itself won't bore you with the the details on it I will point out a couple of issues you can see that our revenue projections are down a little bit that's due to those plugged wells personal services calculator with all of those positions funded right now is 364,000 you can see the general budget as it as it moves through the material and supply increase was for the the purchase of the computer some additional instrumentation for Rod's use in the field basically the rest of it has not changed much operational side we did a small reduction in the amount of training simply because that original amount was for all four FTEs and we found we just simply weren't using that amount of money for training schools and seminars the cost of service is exclusively tech services related to the the upkeep of the website and some computing so I believe Councilman Briggs has a question. Does Rod have a FLIR camera? He does not what Rod has is a Senseit gold G2 and basically that will do methane detection oxygen hydrogen sulfide and carbon carbon monoxide the detection limits on this are not going to be comparable to some of the instrumentation that you saw but it's still a good instrument. So one of the things to to think about in the 18-19 proposed budget if we keep the single FTE which is Rod and basically all the other items essentially the same as what you saw before with the looking at the difference between the two we gain about two hundred forty two thousand three hundred and four for using the personal services calculator for those three positions that are currently unfilled. We have a operations cost right now of about ten thousand three hundred and eight when we went into the 2018-2019 proposed if we choose to look at a contract with modern ge osciences our estimation right now is that contract would be about two hundred and twenty thousand dollars. It's going to be slightly less than it was if you'll recall it was about two hundred and thirty eight thousand three hundred and thirty three last time on a two-not exceed of two hundred and fifty thousand. We feel that the the number can come down both because we've had some plugged wells and because we have built in the GIS component that is now built and will not require the level of staff effort on the part of modern geosciences to to continue that operation. So looking at the original proposed budget and looking at with business as usual and then looking at our 18-19 proposed feel we can shave about 200 I'm sorry about twenty two thousand three hundred and four dollars off of that. That's not going to get us to the point of making up that complete shortfall between the amount of revenue we're bringing in versus the overall cost to run the division. It does get us quite a bit closer though. So we've already talked pretty extensively about the inspection frequency comparison between what City of Denton does versus what modern geosciences is doing so I won't belabor the point there. I will point out that these numbers just for those that are watching and for the benefit of understanding where your backups at the city numbers of 294 have actually decreased to 289 because of those five plugged wells the ETJ remains essentially the same at 203. We've gone through this slide before through this comparison. Council member Meltzer is. Yeah we've talked about this a little bit I don't know if everyone's on the same page. What we do in the ETJ is a lot less different than what we do. That's correct . The city right and I have a question for city attorney. I don't know what our obligations are in the ETJ. I mean do we are do are we obligated to protect health and safety and general welfare in the ETJ or you know what what is our our obligation? Is there a statutory requirement? No. Is it a policy decision of the council you can make that decision? The reason why we don't regulate in the ETJ is extensively due in the city is because a lot of our regulations are zoning based and zoning doesn't apply in the ETJ. Thank you and do the well operators in the ETJ pay fees to us? They do but it's much reduced compared to those within the city limits. It's based on a cost of service and the the services necessary to meet the city limit requirements are quite a bit more than those in the ETJ. But that's at our option right our definition sounds like I mean you know if we wanted to I'm not saying we do I know this you know it's good thing the mayor's not here he gets annoyed when I ask a lot of what if questions but but is it possible that we would consider you know having that fee the same fee in the ETJ but also providing the same level of service and might that also you know kind of keep us whole on the balance you know the revenue and expenses. Again a lot of the stuff that we cannot regulate in the ETJ during the inspections of what we're doing in the city so trying to provide those same level of services we may run into some legal issues. What are our obligations? So there are legal obstacles because you're saying that they're driven by the zoning the zoning doesn't apply but this isn't about zoning this is about presence of all well. Yes but a lot of our authority to inspect them including the emissions flow out of the zoning. I asked the question. I withdraw that whole line of inquiry. We've seen this slide before so I'll just skip over it. So last time when we had this discussion we were kind of trying to answer questions on the fly about what costs would be like and we were given our best guess and I wanted to take this opportunity to really put together some numbers to give everybody a sense of what it would cost and then a sense of kind of rolled up what that would look like with doing this in-house. So we've talked about the near equipment the fence line and the contingency sampling. So the near equipment inspections I've just provided a list of the equipment I won't belabor the discussion by running through all of that but our estimation is that the initial cost to buy that equipment is about a hundred and seventy two thousand two hundred dollars. I would point out that I think I would very much characterize these as planning numbers they're going to be probably plus or minus 15 percent. Annualized replacement cost we've got at about thirty nine thousand seven hundred. This is inspections that we do for all site categories. So the cost to complete the fence line monitoring got all of the instrumentation listed there about a hundred and twenty one thousand four hundred and fifty dollars to purchase the equipment about a thirty one thousand nine hundred and fifty dollar O&M operation and replacement. Yes. Who would be doing the training? I can go over that the training component of it is is listed later. There's a little bit of training rolled in here for certain types of activities but general training is is in the rolled up budget. So contingency sampling is basically done if fence line results indicate elevated volatile organic compounds hydrogen sulfide etc. This is where the cost really increase because you're looking at a field capable of gas chromatogram mass spectrophotometer that's the GCMS and then all of the necessary equipment to be able to to run that particular instrument as well as looking at your fence line sampling for hydrogen sulfide. So that's going to be initial cost about two hundred and fifty seven thousand nine hundred and then the annual operation and replacement is sixty four thousand two hundred and fifty. We did talk a little bit about the idea of the optional contin ual monitoring that is something that that could be implemented. We do have a small contingency built into the budget to to be able to enact this type of monitoring if it is deemed necessary. So far we've not done that but that that goes up even higher in terms of the instrumentation. So you're looking at about two hundred ninety one thousand for the initial cost and then about fifty eight thousand three hundred for the ongoing O&M. I do want everyone to understand and be very clear about this that the rolled up numbers that I'm going to show you do not consider the instrumentation on the or the ongoing operation and maintenance of this optional continual monitoring. So I'm just looking at the three things that we're doing regularly which is the near equipment inspection, the fence line monitoring, and then the contingency sampling. So looking at that rolled up basically we are looking at the maintenance of the current FTE and all of the issues associated with supporting that FTE in the budget. These are the numbers that I had referred to with regards to the initial purchase of the equipment and then the annual O&M for that equipment for the types of monitoring and investigations that are done. Three FTEs to be able to to do this to fill to the full for giving us two teams of two. We would have to get a couple of vehicles purchased and then the ongoing O&M for the operation and replacement of those vehicles. Fuel miscellaneous and then here's the training line. Took a stab at that. I think five thousand is pretty conservative. It would probably end up being at least five thousand but we may be able to get some benefits of scale through the instrument vendors so that one's a little bit hard to hard to predict. Yes. So are you implying it would be the instrument vendors that would do the training or someone like modern geosciences? That is correct. Typically you will have an opportunity to get training from a vendor that's selling a piece of equipment so in order to be able to learn how to use that piece of equipment you can you've got an option to get the vendor training. So what that would look like some that's why it's hard to predict because sometimes that is rolled into the overall cost of the piece of equipment and sometimes it is a free- standing item that you can choose to be optional. Yes. I mean my sense I mean correct me if I'm wrong would be that the training needed would go beyond just training on how to use the individual pieces of equipment but there's a kind of overall you know holistic kind of putting it together and how to process the data that I would imagine the individual vendors wouldn 't be able to provide. I agree and and there would also have to be a very good sense of understanding the on-site operational characteristics of a typical gas well operating site and we have some expertise internally that we can do that that training Rod is very experienced and Rod Weatherby who is our current inspector very experienced in that regard. We do have a lot of experience in in managing data from instrumentation through the watershed group. I'm not going to say categorically that we could do everything that we need to do in house but I think we could do a lot of it. So the were there any other questions? Okay so the bottom line trying to to get all of the instrumentation together best guess on on prices right now planning level about 1.17 million dollars to to start and an annual to to do the the program would be about six hundred and ninety nine thousand about seven hundred thousand dollars. So it does it does show the benefit of cost sharing in a sense because the instrumentations that is used here is not going to only be used here it'll be used to provide those services to other municipalities or for other purposes. So really that's that's all that I have in terms of a presentation again because it is budget time we're in process of planning and I'm seeking direction from the council as to what your pleasure would be with regards to pursuing as we get a little bit closer at least bringing in another contract for you to consider through modern geosciences or taking a look at ramping up internally or some other iteration. Councilmember Briggs. So I would like to see both because I know it's gonna be expensive to build our department back up as we saw but if we do a little bit at a time which is I recall the last discussion we had it was a suggestion that I had right that as we do we could do one at a time get an instrument you know get a camera and build that back up so that we have an exit plan so that we're not contracting out our department and the gas well services forever and ever and ever. Right and we took that to heart we've added the instrumentation in terms of a conductivity meter that Rod has we've got him a computer he was doing all this stuff by hand so we've taken some steps in that direction. There are several levels of FLIR and we have taken a look at some of the lower tier level. They're not going to be anywhere on the level of the FLIR OGI but they may be something that we can take a look at so I can we can definitely come up with some ideas on that regard. And that 's great and I was very glad to see the report before I think that modern geos ciences has done a really great job and so I'm okay continuing that contract for now but again you know I think there needs to be some sort of exit strategy on down the road in the future and he mentioned in the the previous discussion about drilling flow back and then there's workovers and I just wanted to clarify because I'm not sure is that in our contract that they monitor those? Not specifically we do have some contingencies so that they could do those types of monitoring monitoring activities if we wanted them to and so that we wouldn't be able to accommodate a lot of that because it's fairly extensive monitoring but at the same time we don't anticipate a lot of new drilling activity so you know we have the capabilities are there and I would I would suggest if we move forward with another contract that we also build those contingencies in there and then we've always got an option if something happens that we don't expect to increase those amounts. I would like to see that just so that it's built in in case there's an issue or something going on we have the ability to monitor those and yeah so that's it. Okay thank you. Councilmember Hussman. Thank you. Dr. Baines can you kind of educate me on well first a little side comment I think it's important and I've noticed it a couple of times in the initial presentation that we normalized the vernacular so instead of FLIR which is a brand I do like how he would correct it and refocus us to it is a optimal gas camera right because I think it far too often if you get in the brand names it's almost like medicines it just kind of gets confusing right to the layperson so I think it's important to reinforce the vernacular being what it is and then the brand being kind of bifurcated. Right right and just just for clarification FLIR stands for forward-looking infrared so it is it is a type of instrument. OGI stands for optical gas OGI what was it imaging sorry slipped my mind so there are multiple brands of FLIR OGI's so I think you know we've talked about this too I think one thing that might be interesting and useful is to add to our website a an acronym page so that we we could actually start to to collect these terms so that people would have an better understanding of what we're talking about maybe some references so I think that would that would that would help address what you're what you're getting at yeah and then if you could so if you could help me understand the rate at which technology kind of wholly changes in this instrument in these instruments you know how quickly does it become outdated I I would that's a tough question I am you know these these instruments have a lifespan and and generally speaking this is a very general statement scientific instruments and as a general statement your your lifespan for that instrument is going to be at least equal to the technology advancement now are there going to be different types of technology that come out that that is always a possibility and something may come out but that we weren't anticipating but if you're looking at something like the instrumentation that we use in the water and wastewater laboratory we plan on those things lasting roughly five to seven years and we plan our finances accordingly for replacement we've found that that that generally works pretty well with keeping up with technology now is there some unanticipated new thing that comes out that we weren't in we just didn't know about that's always a possibility but I think the the annual replacement cost that we've been looking at here would be such that it would make sure that that instrument would not be outdated thank you sure and so that that's my preference is that we maintain the contract that we have because staff hasn't brought forward but it I'm sure all you have to do is look at the budget and you scroll down to the insurance cost for and add three people to that I mean it's just it's just and the technology piece so if you if you build it by piecemeal you're always behind and so and there's an in there doesn't capture all the costs that would go into that not to mention vacations etc that sort of thing and so I think that the economic benefit of sharing with other communities by by proxy there's there's just a level of experience and there's a level of familiarity with the with the gas companies etc that I think brings unquantified value to the table and allows us to take advantage of new technology comes out we can take advantage of that if wells begin to continue to be shut down we can take advantage of that versus coming forth and saying hey we have four FTEs and we need to let someone go you know and so I think that ability to adjust to the market and the just kind of untan you can't it's hard to quantify the value of working in different communities leveraging those relationships to get stuff done I just think it we have a good template that I think should carry forward so that's my and if I made that I think that is a very good point because the way the contract is set up right now the contract is based on a per well basis so if the number of wells go down the cost goes down if the number of wells go up the cost goes up so it is kind of adjusting itself to the realities of what's out in our city councilmember Amateur yeah I would actually like if I may if there are other comments from council to defer my comments laughter no no no just just till till later in the conversation I want to hear some more I want to hear some more opinions first that's not remember Melton I was thinking along the same lines as customer husband in terms of you know when you make the decision about whether to outsource or in source you know the issue of the criticality of the having the latest technology you know was foremost in my mind too so that's why I want to ask you does our contract require or could it require that they have the latest and the greatest I suppose so if we can define what that exactly is it's a scientific term just that they that they stay current with you know state-of-the-art still require some pencil work on your part right right I'm going yeah I understand and I will say you know it's a fair statement to say that modern geo has been on the forefront of this type of work they there there is instrumentation that is not involved that they're in our program that they're working on that that is still quasi experimental that that is going to take this type of monitoring to the next level so it's it's out there I suppose you could you know enshrine in an agreement you know sort of a review annually of what what the state-of-the-art is you know something like that and I would think just the natural incentives you know would would be the modern geosciences would be more able to amortize the cost of current equipment you know more readily than we would just because of the bigger customer base so you know even without the agreement I think we'd be more likely to be up to date with an outsourced agreement just a question it's not about this so knowing that we have several wells around schools and some of them did have issues is there a communication with with the contractor and DISD or how do you let DISD know if there's an immediate issue right Rod has has a good relationship with the ISD and has talked to them several times we definitely could there's ways to improve that information and that's something that we want to take a look at and that's also something that he has a tendency on the spot checks that are done are prioritized based on wells that we feel have a great degree of importance to the city and those types of wells like the one that you mentioned are ones that we go to on a very very regular basis we're not going to go on a full full-blown inspection but we're gonna make sure that that quick drive-by inspections a little quick instrumentation work make sure everything that's okay but that's that's something that's kind of in my mind in in terms of our next level of communication is how do we reach out to entities like that so that's that's definitely on the West right but especially with issues beyond the fence line sure absolutely yeah thank you yeah I wanted to suggest that we continue with a contract with modern geosciences I'm really impressed with the work that they're doing and and also you know that we continue to have our current staff you know working on the issue I'm on on inspections you know I too am wary about taking on in investing in too much equipment because of the O&M costs and then the question of are we are we using it correctly and this and I'm not questioning the competence of our staff just it's it's it's you know it's a very specialized field and it's I see it as very very much like medical work you know we're having a medical specialist right do a certain work kind of work and there are things you have your your general internist to do and then other things you go outside for a specialist for for their training and you know to invest in their equipment we've seen in you know in in solid waste with some of the vehicles that just using that as an example you know or you can you can get all the equipment that you need to do the work and then if you're not using it right it can just be very costly and at the same time not get the job done so but but all that is to say I I definitely you know support having gas well inspectors in in-house and I would encourage you know to be considered and I don't quite know what the pros and cons would be but to have those inspectors take on some of that role of the community outreach that you were just talking about that you know an outside contractor might not do communicating with GISD with apartment complexes with and you know I had proposed before that that come before the committee for citizen engagement and maybe those staff would want to come to that meeting too I'm not sure council member Duff I guess at this time it just doesn't make sense to me to invest in a lot of equipment and bring in three more FTEs I think I think we it looks like we may even be able to reduce the cost a little bit by staying the way we are right now and we don't know what's going to happen in a year to two years from now and you know next year it may be different but I think right now that's I think I think we have a consensus anyway so yeah right in I would completely agree with what council member Huspeth said I think it's really about economy of scale that they're able to do it you know we've got between both ETJ and in the city of little under 500 wells you take the cost of that equipment you divide it by that 500 versus if they're doing three or four thousand wells in the area that's you know a major difference I like the fact that we're talking about cross training with the the other departments I think that's going to be a major help I would never want to not have any FTE in the well gas well inspections but I think that I think we've got a really solid program running right now and I'm very happy with the report that we got from modern Geoscience any other comments on that do you feel like you've got pretty fair direction question might be a silly one but I'm just gonna ask it just at least to be considered that maybe our some of our code enforcement staff you know might be trained I mean I know they're kept pretty busy but this is a you know pressing matter or something they could be trained in that might be a potential use if there's an interest in that department because it is we do have codes pertaining to this and this is a kind of inspection right so okay and council member Briggs a couple of things I'm looking on our site again and one of the issues when people reach out to me is they say well we have this many wells and only one inspector because that's all it shows right if we could have something on our website that says this is who our contract is with it would be it would be helpful I think so it looks like we're not just is it on there it is but it's not very obvious yeah yeah just just so that you know I can say well yes but that person does this but we have this whole large contract and they're doing these things because they are actually doing a majority of what you know the citizens are are looking for and I think that would be very helpful I thought the same thing it's in we we could do something to draw more and maybe a link to their page so that people know who they are and what all they're doing for us thank you straight stra ining the posting a bit but just building on councilmember Armitage comment I think I think you may be more on the money with connecting the idea of community improvement and community engagement rather than doing the actual testing but that community relationship with schools and all that I think you know you may really be on to something there any additional questions or comments all right we've been going about two hours since we've had a break so let's go ahead and take a break it's right now welcome back everyone to our work session on August 21st we just got back from a short break it is now 4 o 2 and we'll move on to our next work session report item 3e which is receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding the fiscal year 18 19 city managers proposed budget and five-year plan mr. mayor pro-tam City Council Tony Puente director finance just as a reminder this is again another opportunity for the council to discuss the proposed budget you know certainly if there's questions beyond what we've prepared for you was we're certainly open to discuss those we've also provided you and your backup memorandum that includes some follow-up on some questions that you had certainly if you have questions on those we'll be happy to go through that there's a number of questions that are still outstanding certainly any questions that you may have today we'll certainly add those to to our working document the plan is to have all that back to you for your next meeting on on the 28th and and so certainly we'll be ready to to to respond to any of the questions we are planning either on the 28th or the or on September 11th to give you kind of a wrap-up of kind of where the entire city budget is any changes that we've made or based on your direction and certainly we've had some of those changes and so we want to make sure we circle back with you and get those wrapped up I did have a conversation with Alan earlier he said that faster I can get out of the way his stuff is more interesting than mine so we'll see about that so so today's discussion is really kind of centered around the electric budget as if you recall from our August 2nd meeting there was some questions about some of the format and some and the way some of the information was presented I will tell you that we did have an opportunity to meet with the mayor and also councilmember Ryan about you know what the information that we provided here for you on how we've separated out the deck and the rest of the DME operating budgets revenues and expenses shown net income the information is quite busy I must admit but I think that it certainly paints a different picture a more transparent picture of where those operations are and and how we're getting to those things but before we get into the budget and the forecast I wanted to one just reiterate that the underlying assumptions to DME forecast have not changed those have all stayed the same as we presented but to the PB and also to the council a number of times just want to remind you on a couple of high-level items we continue to to include our proposed budget the payoff of the TMPA series 2010 debt that's the scrubber debt so that's still part of the proposed budget we have shifted and reduced our DME CIP program and have shifted to cash funding the distribution projects within the DME operation the transmission projects are still proposed to be debt funded a very small portion of the overall CIP project but I want to remind you of that and then finally there is a suspension for fiscal year 1819 of the TCRF and if you look at the forecast that suspension continues through the five years of that program will continue to evaluate that moving forward into into next year's budget so so the other change that that has occurred since we last met really centers around the greensense incentive program and I'll go through that in in a few minutes we've we've also grossed up some of the revenues and expenses and also again as I mentioned earlier we've separated out the deck revenues and expenses to make that a little bit clearer on what's what's actually occurring and then finally the other item that I'll have here for you that's in your backup is an alternative forecast we certainly want to make sure that we continue to look at the the operations of the budget in the event that FY 1718 does not perform as what as we had anticipated then we may need to reevaluate certainly the TNPA payoff I do want to mention that that that that particular series of bonds is callable beginning in February of next year and it is a continuous callable call and what that means is that we don't have to pay off the full amount all at once we could pay it off in five million dollar increments and ten million increments depending on what the outcome of fiscal year 1718 is and so as we wrap up fiscal year 1718 will be evaluating where we are the plan is then to come back to the council in sometime in December with what we actually think we might be able to do we are planning to meet with the audit finance committee before that it's also kind of discussed the wrap up of fiscal year 1718 and what we may be able to do with that particular debt at that time so I just wanted to and I'll go through that particular forecast in a few minutes so with the electric electric green sense and center program this was already discussed with the PUB recently and they did give us the go -ahead to on this particular program and the changes certainly there's some standardization language with throughout the the program manual we are adding a rebate for do it yourself weatherization supplies and then one of the one of the bigger items is this tiered or graduated rebate from the flat rebate that is currently in place and so what I wanted I did want to mention that in the graduation what is in your backup we actually did have a slight error and so that's anything above 10.1 kilowatts kilowatts is what the threshold would be what was previously in your back was 10.01 so I did want to mention that to you and in addition to all electric vehicles there's also clarifying language that plug-in hybrid electric vehicles also qualify for the EV purchase rebate there's a removal of minimum demand requirement for standard offer incentives and then certainly the the bigger the budgetary impact here is that we're increasing the budget an additional two hundred thousand dollars for this program from three hundred thousand to five hundred thousand certainly if you have questions the specific questions about the program George is here that can certainly respond to that but certainly if you have any questions that being changes is now the time yeah about green since yeah so several questions as I understand it right now the rebate can't exceed fifty percent of the installation cost is that correct correct yeah George Moro, D.M.E. General Manager that's correct so I would love to see that increased you know if there were more a higher percentage that of the installation costs that it could cover obviously then more people in Denton would be able to afford residential solar so I would love to see a cut some kind of study of the you know what the cost would be the pros and cons that kind of a financial analysis of you know covering 60 percent 70 percent so I would love to see that also and this was a suggestion from a citizen who said if that if if solar power credits could roll over the way that phone minutes roll over that would be great I don't know again what the pros and cons would be but that would be or what the possibilities are but that certainly seemed like a really sound suggestion to me so if that that issue could be explored and another issue also brought up by a resident who has solar residential solar changes in possible changes in zoning to allow more residential solar kind of studying what what zoning issues have come up this one individual happened to mention that they saw on ZBA there was a request not granted because of zoning issues and this was just an email I received so I haven't had time to kind of fact-check it I don't know what that is so maybe that's not true at all but but that's just that's an email I received that there was something came up on ZBA about extending the driveway cover and so but I'd be happy to put you in touch with the citizen and then you could figure out what that was about but I wanted to make sure to bring that up and then and then finally yeah electric vehicle charging you know I don 't know you know to what extent that falls falls under this but since electric vehicles are covered in the rebate program it would be nice to have to see more flexibility for daytime charging so you know to allow for workplace charging and hybrid vehicles and that that might make more people you know in it in addition to help the helping out with the cost that we're doing want to go go electric or hybrid so anyway I don't know if you want to respond to any of those now well I'll just introduce Liz Ruiz is our program manager for green sense and what I mentioned to the PUB when I came in and reviewed the program I was very impressed I think we have a fairly comprehensive program in Denton for providing assistance to citizens to save electricity to save money and we've done a good job and there's a lot of history and it programs gotten better and better it seems like each and every year we added a couple of new features this upcoming year and also mentioned to the PUB that we're we 're bringing on a you know a higher level program manager for for this whole project and the things you mentioned would fall within what we want to look at over the next year and see if we can go up a little another notch in this program and make it even more beneficial thanks thank you Councilmember Briggs so on on the incentive program changes I'm very much in favor I'm glad to see the weatherization added to it my I think 50% the the increase in coverage would be a good thing to discuss but my concern with that is that commercial also gets that and if they are a very large project and they qualify for a higher percentage the budget can be gone with one project so I think maybe that's why they have that maximum so that the budget can be spread out and more people could benefit when I found out that commercial and residential use the same program it kind of you know unless those are separated then that may be something that we need to look at like okay this much is allowed for commercial and this much for residential and residential may be allowed to use yes so much percentage more I don't know it's just something that we can look into but I am in favor of these changes and I had a couple of questions about the rebate so it's the rebate for the solar or for any of these changes go as a credit to your electric bill or it did and is it proposed to come back as a check now or am I am I off here let me make sure I get a totally correct okay that's why this is here so most of our rebates as a whole go as a credit but because solar is so large we do have the checks cut directly to the customer not installers okay thank you and on the on the updates to the incentive program on the actual manual I know there were several redlined versions and I just want to make sure that because this is already a little bit confusing and very it's a lot of information for our citizens that we have simplified it and not complicated right I think if you that was our intent so it was to simplify it make some of the more important information about the solar rebates clear to the citizens so they could have one place to go to and then we would link them to where all the rest of the information was so that was clearly our objective and I think you know we'll continue to look at it in that regard well no that's what I got from it too I just wanted you to state that for the for the residents thank you thank you for those comments I'm also very pleased with what I see and you know appreciate the attention and effort that's gone into it I just sort of had a comment that even if there were only residential if you increase the amount you know that the percentage that you can get covered but you don't increase the budget fewer people will participate right so you know I guess if you want to come back you know if there's a target the goal is to have more people participate so I guess if you know if we wanted to look at those higher percentages I guess you also need to say how much more would you have to add to the budget to make sure you're still reaching the number of people you hope to also just to finish up my comment be really interesting to see what the participation is a year from now compare it to you know before and after all right appreciate that Councilmember Amatole oh yeah I just like to come back around and to say you know thanks to Councilmember Briggs and and Meltzer for adding that yeah definitely both those points you know with it obviously if you increase the percentage covered you need to increase the the total amount so I wouldn't want to do one without the other and just have it only benefit fewer and I also like the idea of separating with at least to see some consideration and of what the pros and cons would be of separate I can't think of any cons separating kind of residential from commercial it wouldn't even necessarily have to be two different pots of money although that would be one way to go about it I imagine there are a number of different kind of formulations so and I just also wanted to say because I might have forgotten to say before just I like these I'd like these improvements and suggestions so thank you any other questions oh Council member Hussman thank you so I'll direct it to you based on Richards instructions earlier Mr. Pro Tem I want to save this point in time and ask anyone on council if they have specific budget numbers or specific requests they want to put forward regarding homelessness that they put those forward during this period because that's what it's for we've had a number of conversations about a number of projects and repeatedly it comes up that that issue is brought up as a deterrent to projects we're trying to fund and so but no one stepped forward to put forth the suggestion and if that's going to continue and we get in past the budget cycle no one said anything during the budget cycle as far as a number I'd like to hear a number or a proposal put forward or not but I would just ask that we cease to raise an issue but don't raise a solution right I think that's that's what I'm driving at this that is what this is for that's what what staff is asked they said if there are budget issues that are not addressed now bring those forward so that as a body we can consider those so that's my ask and or I'm making a clear record that if this if that goes unasked then I'm absolutely gonna bring it up every time it comes up because there is a window and opportunity to bring that forward do so or choose not to but understand that window is now and and I'm gonna ask that be done so that we can consider it as a body and make a decision and everyone if there if there needs to be a record taken there's a red record made of who fell where and and if they supported that movement or not but but I just I just want to have a clear date and time where I pointed out this is the time to raise those real dollars real suggestions versus a just a mention without taking actionable steps I just want to point out the obvious that the work session item on that issue was deferred to next week because the mayor wasn't here well mr . Pro Tem I don't think that's I don't I don't think that's the case because I'm gonna paraphrase last week it was or a couple of weeks ago it was the Industrial Street Park and it was people are sleeping outside I can't spend six hundred thousand dollars on a park that has nothing to do with any particular project I'm saying if there's a solution if there's a budget number as because it is a larger issue than one particular item I don't speak on one particular item I speak on the global need and when it's brought up it 's not singular a particular projects because if we believe that if we believe that one particular project solves the problem then that's disingen uous that's not accurate and so I disagree what was said and again I reiterate if there's a budget number or if there's a process put forward or researches with none I'd love to hear it so that we can consider it and work towards that end right in I would generally agree with you however I'll also say we want to get all these numbers out here for the budget as soon as possible the earlier the better the easier it is to try and figure out where you're going to adjust the budget but in reality September 18th is the day that we adopt it and and that's you know more of the drop dead but there's always amendments after that and because that workstation has been postponed and those numbers are going to be a little bit further before we're even looking at if that's something that we want to move forward with can I is it if councilmember Hutsmith would decide to to change his your direction on the question of postponement is that an option if I may mr. mr. Pro Tem that that is not I guess I 'm not being clear in my communication because it is not a singular fix I guess that 's my point and I don't know how else to say that it is not a singular that 's 30 30 residents maybe that that many people meet here on at the Civic Center Park on a Sunday right I mean that's not the and then there's more than that that go to our daily protein I mean there's not there's not a it's not a single issue it's not a single fix issue I guess I don't know how to say it I don't know how to better communicate that well I would generally say that you are correct it is not a single issue and it's not necessarily a single budgetary item so it's something that you know council as a whole needs to look at the individual pieces and what pieces we may or may not want to provide this year what we may put at the top of a priority list behind what we've already set up as priorities once we we you know when we find additional funds through sales tax or etc that you know that's when we can start looking at what those projects are like or is there something that we want to cancel out that's another option that can happen after the budget is adopted adopting the budget is adopting there's this much money going into these areas as I see it and that money can be shifted within there but your revenue is pretty is set that's really what you're setting when you set the budget is this is my revenue and if additional comes in we can look at what our priorities are at that time if I may reply Tony can we go to the the items that are pending do you have a slide on the that so that's the air truck the and if not I would recommend we just let Tony continue and then we can bring this back up as we get to that that particular area of the presentation yes let's do that okay this comes my bricks so on the slide I am in favor of at the additional increase because it has already been incorporated into the budget as presented that we have seen correct the budget that you're seeing today incorporates that okay well we showed you on the second did not so we have that's an ad okay yes ma'am well I'm saying what I would think that it would be more fitting when we get to you know budgetary items that we currently don't have set in the budget that's more we can bring it back at that point wait Tony can continue and okay okay so just to just to reiterate again so the two hundred thousand is included in and the forecast that that I'm getting ready to show you so I wanted to make that clear I'm hearing that that's the direction for the council so again as I mentioned earlier you know what we've done here is try to make very clear the deck revenues versus the you know non deck operating revenues to make that very transparent there were some questions previously on on the format I think we've addressed that certainly with the conversation that we had the mayor at least he seemed to be satisfied that we had answered his questions but I wanted to just make sure that the council was just clear that what we're showing for fiscal year 1819 non-deck revenues 179 million 36.3 million is the deck revenue what we anticipate to have for fiscal year 1819 is 215 million dollars of revenue for the entire fund again the deck is simply an operation within within that fund for fiscal year 1718 we are currently projecting a drawdown about about 14 million dollars and just for some context that is a reduction from about 32 about 31 million which was included in the current adopted budget but again with some of the changes that we made to the CFP program that certainly has reduced and so then the drawdown that is planned and has been planned is 28.06 million dollars is really tied to the payoff of the TMPA debt which I'll show you here in a second councilmember I'm so and just to clarify so it 's it won't be till 2023 is that correct that we start paying off the bonds or is that 2021 the bonds for sorry the bonds for the deck the bond for the deck actually next year will be the first year we'll begin to pay some of that some of the debt yeah correct but there's a big I guess there's a big increase yes it coming up in a million dollar yeah yeah so and where it just to let the public when we get to the expense side this is the revenues yes we've broken down for you based on the feedback you gave us so in this next slide what we've done is again we've separated out the deck expenses from all the other DM E expenses we've also broken out the purchase power into the TMPA related purchase power renewable energy and in all the other market purchase power that that we do you know that was part of the question that the mayor had and so we think that by by separating this out certainly makes a little bit clearer as to where that that power is coming from within this 1819 budget you have the TMPA scrubber debt here twenty eight point six million dollars if you can see there on my on the screen but that's where we're currently proposing to pay off next year again we'll continue to evaluate that within the context of where we end a fiscal year 1718 what you have here in front of you now is the deck operating expenses or all the deck operating deck expenses this was previously shown to you as a separate performer again we're trying to keep it together within the context of the entire fund because it is the electric fund and so we've separated out here what the actual energy expenses are related to deck personnel and the various operating expenses and what you see here Councilmember Armitage is that next year there's about four million dollars in debt service that's that will begin that will begin to pay and then beyond that it's about 18 million dollars every year that's associated with the deck if you recall when this debt was issued we capitalized some of some of the interest there was no principle that was being paid on that debt and then so finally here at the at the end of the slide what we show for you is what we anticipate to be the net income of non-deck operations versus deck operations again this is consistent with what we've shown you before in which ERC also came and spoke with you about specifically to the deck that we anticipate or had been projecting that for the for fiscal year 17 18 there would be about a 20 million dollar net income associated with the deck 13 million in 18 19 and then there be net income losses in that deck for the remainder of that forecast again that's all contingent upon you know the operation of the deck what market conditions might be and so in separating this out again we 're trying to just reflect so you can see what the total net income for the electric fund and how those are being impacted with within you know non-deck operations and and deck operations again consistent with what we've shown you in the past and then finally this last slide again a lot of information here for you but in this last slide what we've shown for you is you know what what the total outcome or forecast is for that fund we do anticipate with some of the changes that we're making not just with the TMPA potential payoff but also by revenue funding the generation component that we will draw down the fund balance in this fund from you know from a high 16 17 of 76 million dollars down to 49 and in 59 million projected fiscal year 23 and again this is all contingent upon the operation and and and and the various components within that so any questions Councilman Briggs so during our initial discussions for the renewable dent in plan when we had the renewables in the the gas plant it was proposed that our rates were going to be decreased and then as the in the Friday staff report with the deck revenues came in there was a thing going around social media about how much money the deck made and there was also at the same time something going around and several people commenting and and I feel I mean the same way is that the past couple of months the bills have been the highest energy bills ever and I do know that it's because you know we did have that hot area our time but and I see up here that there is a decrease in the well wait isn't there a decrease in the rate that we are going to charge it had been proposed that the citizens would see a decrease in the rate for electricity as this plan came on and so I am looking for that up here and that shows that is accounted for correct correct and so so that that rate decrease is really associated with the suspension of the TCRF and so there there is no proposed changes to the electrics base rates the change is really coming from the suspension of the TCRF which again you know has the effect of lowering the rates that that our customers are paying on a monthly basis by not having that TCRF okay so back up a few years ago when they said the debt came online with that increase in profit that our rates would go down and so you're saying that that is not happening I think I think what we're saying is we've had less than two months experience with the deck and you know we've taken kind of a middle ground approach based upon our own staff and the ERC recommendations in the forward market we've got a couple levers the first one is Tony emphasizes once we close out the books for this fiscal year we'll make a recommendation on whether to retire the TMPA debt which could factor into the overall rates for the next few years I think the second thing is is based upon the kind of middle-of-the-road assumptions that we're taking which includes where the price of gas might be how often the deck would actually run and in terms of its efficiency over the next few years it does not at this point look like there's there's going to be significant opportunity to drop rates now should you have some you know and obviously we're looking out three four years into a this is like trying to guess where the stock market is going to be in a few years but if the assumptions hold probably not going to see a lot of rate reductions but much more trying to contain 0% increases should should the pro forma get a little bit better than we're saying more revenue get injected into the into the air into the deck it's possible we could use that for rate relief but we've asked I've asked the general manager and he's he's done so to go back through and prioritize any non-essential capital projects to try to provide us some some buffer if we need it and he has done that and those are built into the assumptions and again we've got some fairly conservative forecasting moving forward but it's going to be one of those things where we 're going to have to take that year by year and are we we're not we're not seeing at this point in time the ability to unnecessarily put into place major rate drops based upon what our experts are telling us it's a little disappointing especially for the story that we heard so and the one thing I say I I appreciate what you're saying and respect it none of us own that decision and put these things we're just trying to give you the the best news we can and the best projections we can at the time and move forward thank you councilmember Robert oh do you see the energy cost adjustment kind of continuing to increase at the same rate you know how much of that is is predictable I you know I see here there's we're going from the three point oh three four one two point oh three four six and then in twenty twenty one twenty two we've got five seven seven six I think we probably should let George speak to that I think it's something he's concerned about and wants to continue studying and I'll defer to George George Morrill DME general manager I was going to reiterate a little bit of what Todd said that you know forecasting forward for the the aircott market that we buy and sell in is similar to you know the stock market and I have a hard time even knowing what's happening tomorrow is gonna go down a hundred gonna go up a hundred and we're dealing with a lot of that same thing you know where's the temperatures gonna be where's wind on that given day you know where are the base load power plants are they operating are they offer they on what you see in front of you is our best case projection you know given what all the experts say the forward look is for the markets and you can see I think Tony would have shown this to you if I hadn't jumped up here this energy cost adjustment forecast relatively flat so at this time we're projecting that we're going to be able to hold the ground with that and and we'll just we'll just take it you know we kind of have to take it week by week month by month year by year and and when the time comes if there's a need for a refresh we'll give you a refresh but just reiterating Tony's thoughts we did reduce the revenues five and a half million this next year that's what the effect of that T cost that transmission cost recovery factor was five and a half million basically that revenue could have come from any location you know any of our resources and we just chose to use that mechanism to flow that back to the customers and and try to give them a effective rate of about three and a half percent this next year so if you look out there at electric utilities not too many doing three and a half percent rate decreases so you know I feel I kind of feel good about that I wish it was more and we're gonna keep looking for other places to save money we meet frequently on this topic and I would just kind of urge the public and council we have six weeks of data behind us okay so until until we have you know two three four years of operations and kind of it can you know be able to sort of measure what our projections were versus what actually happened I think it's it's a debate and an argument that can can only be had and not won so I just think that we just need to keep that in mind I understand the statements that have been made in the past but we're trying to give you as realistic of a look as we possibly can and we're getting as much outside in data as well to try to back that up people that don't work here have no vested interest in this situation which is you know by as objective as it gets and I think in a year we'll have better data and a year after that will be better data but right now we're telling we're putting together a budget that we feel comfortable with so thank you and just as a just as a final kind of reminder for for the council within the electric rate ordinance where the ECA is housed we still continue to have the same provisions that we will review that with the PB and also with the council as changes may be warranted and so I just wanted to mention that they'll be coming back to you the redline version of that other electric rate orders will come back to you on the 28th for you to review. Councilmember Ra ul Torre. Yeah just wanted to say briefly thanks to management and staff for everything you all have done to to try to you know mitigate prevent or mitigate past decisions and to prevent you know future negative situations from occurring and you know anyway I do truly truly appreciate appreciate that so thank you very very much. So if there's no other questions about the current proposed performance I just wanted to really quickly kind of show you an alternative performance that really includes no TMPA debt payoff and so revenue assumptions for both the deck and non-deck operations you remain the same what you'll see here within the within the 18-19 budget is is the 28.6 missing from that and so what we've assumed within this alternative kind of forecast is that we will continue to pay that debt service about five million dollars a year and again the city does not miss out on the opportunity to call that debt that debt is continuous and we can call it at any time if certainly conditions change within the forecast and certainly council provides a direction we'll certainly look at that but we'll just show you what that would look like and then from a total net income basis what the impact would be and so just for some context so for 18-19 if that 28.6 million is not paid off the total net income for the fund goes from a from a loss of about 28.06 which is really a drawdown in the reserves for that fund to really about a $800,000 loss and so that's really you know the the impact is that rather than draw down those fund balances those fund balances remain within that fund and so then the financial picture for for the entire fund changes drastically by not by not paying off that debt again I think we've we're clear on what the council has wanted to do within with that particular debt and so we'll continue to evaluate that as we go forward so that's really the basis for that alternative and again we'll be looking at the end of fiscal year 17-18 having a discussion with the auto finance committee likely October November timeframe to discuss the TMPA that pay off and then come back to the council sometime in December for that discussion and then also if there if there is going to be an intent to call some of that debt there will be an ordinance they'll need to be passed and we'll have we will be working with the auto finance committee on that particular issue so just finally next steps and certainly if there's other items that we need to talk about certainly prepared to do that but I just want to remind the council that we do have a couple more opportunities for us to discuss the budgets early August 28th the 11th and also on the 18th we'll also have a work session item for you to discuss the budget prior before you actually consider adoption of the tax rule tax rate and budget adoption we do have a second public hearing on the proposed tax rate on September 11th on that night as well there'll be a public hearing on the proposed budget itself on September 11th and then finally September 18th the council will consider adoption of the tax rule the tax rate and in the actual adoption and ratification of the budget and so that that really concludes my presentation certainly if you have any questions we'll be happy to to go through that as I mentioned we did provide to you a memorandum addressing some of the questions that you had certainly if there's questions there we'll be happy to go through that Councilmember Broussard is this the part where I can pick up the previous conversation if I can just you know make some general comments great thing about a budget any budget is that it's an opportunity for us to establish our priorities and they're not all the same we probably have some areas of you know very large agreement probably police and fire you know and so on but you know that's where we work out priorities I think we all want to meet the city's needs without excessive spending but we but we don't all agree on you know one person's excess is another person's priority so when people make you know pointed comments like comparing you know one kind of spending versus another expressing their priority well you know you might also say how can you spend on X when that could fund you know for cops on the street or something like that so just a way of expressing your priorities regarding the the work session item that we're not covering today I realized I was making an assumption that that maybe I shouldn't have but I my assumption was that that item would be in the context of the fact that staff is also working on through this shelter work group a master plan a strategic plan that for addressing the now quantified you know issue of homelessness so that this is you know this is kind of a parallel path to look at one possible piece of the puzzle while they're embarking on a 90-day project to figure out an overall approach so you know I agree with the sentiment express that that's only one possible tactic but it's in the context of the fact that there's active work now to see what would our comprehensive approach be and I would just add that or ask rhetorically why would it only be that issue that we wouldn't want to have the benefit of of review and concept development and evaluation of alternatives why is it only that issue that about which we would say put up or shut up I praise staff for the recent actions to try to really get a comprehensive handle on the issue and to investigate these alternatives and you know it takes you know it'll take a little while to do it and you know that that will as we learn more about what what options are that will affect our priorities eventually that'll be reflected in the budget speech over anyone else just I know you probably don't have this off the top of your head but how many budget roughly how many budget amendments do we do in a year when we when we make changes throughout the course of the year probably about three or four depending you know what what may be going on so just because we don't get it into the budget by September 18th doesn't mean that at some course before we get into the next year's budget that it couldn't be something that we adjust at that point so I think that's that's something to keep in mind is we need to make sure that we've got the proper amount of information brought to us that we have before we try and put a dollar amount on something that we don't know there's a council where we're really standing just one more sense I venture to say every council member is in favor of a dog park and I venture to say every council member is opposed to excessive spending our definitions may vary anything else on this item Tony thank you very much as we mentioned earlier we are because the mayor is unable to attend we are going to skip over item 3f and that will be reposted for next week and we will move on to item 3g receive a report hold a discussion give staff direction regarding the Board of Ethics rules of procedure mayor and council Brian Langley deputy city manager as you know we've been working our way through the ethics policy and developing some rules of procedure we hired Alan Borquez to come and work with our ethics board to develop those they've met on a couple of different occasions Alan is going to walk you through those rules that have been developed and voted on by the ethics board I also want to take a moment to introduce Jesse Davis he is the chair of the ethics board and he's also available should you have questions of him so with that I'll turn it over to Alan mayor pro tem council I'm here with some good news I'm Alan Borquez your special council and your ethics advisor through this process that we started back in December when council adopted the code of ethics May 1st they established the goal of having everything up and running for September 1st and we're still on line to do that if council so chooses since the last time I met with you we've done a few things the first is we've prepared in conjunction with your staff all the forms documents samples and flow charts that will be needed to actually implement and administer the code of ethics and that's no small small chunk of paper and your staff now has the final versions including the word files in case future modifications need to be made the other thing that I've done is I've met with your board of ethics twice and I got to commend the council on your appointments just having met with them twice doesn't give me deep insight but I can report back to you that in both of our meetings you found a group of people that were very thoughtful they were taking this job very seriously and all the discussions that we had were very productive and fair and it made me very optimistic about the future of implementing this new ethics program in Denton so kudos to you on your choices that you've picked we've also had two training sessions we had a general training session for all city officials which was videotaped and available for those who couldn't attend and then a special training session just for the board of ethics going over what their role is and what they're going to have to do going forward and to my knowledge none of them resigned and change their address so that's a very encouraging sign so where are we today we're here at what my to-do list is the end of the road which is rules of procedure I'll remind those council members who were part of the process and those who participated when they were citizens that part of the code of ethics stated that the board of ethics must adopt their own rules of procedure for how they're going to conduct their meetings and their public hearings but those rules are subject to the consent of the City Council so the board of ethics unanimously did approve a set of rules and we went through two rounds of revisions started off with a a draft that I presented them based on our code and based on the best practices I found elsewhere I think it's probably one of the most thorough sets of rules or procedures of any board of ethics most of the boards of ethics that I'm aware of don't have much at all in the way of rules of procedure but that's not what the City Council wanted and that's not what staff or the board of ethics wanted so in typical Denton fashion we went a little bit above and beyond but the other side of that that exercise was trying to make rules or procedures that were not too legalistic your board of ethics is not a court -at-law not everyone on there is a lawyer and for sure a lot of the citizens that are going to be part of this process are not going to be lawyers so how do you have guidelines for how to conduct these proceedings but not make them so that everyone must hire a lawyer all the time just to navigate that that was part of the challenge that we had and I think what you have before you is a pretty good result and I'm here to walk you through it if you wish we can go page by page or we can address specific questions you might have about the particulars mr. Mayor Pro Tem how would you like to proceed what's the pleasure of the council do we want to has everyone had an opportunity to review it do we have some questions that maybe we want to start with or I think as we were going through the original the ethics ordinance I think we kind of covered a little section by section so I think that might be you know just kind of give the general header and if we've got a question on that general header we can bring it up at that point okay then I'll go through in order to handle it I'll go through order and make just a general comment or two and if you have a question or comment or suggestion to go ahead and stop me is that sound all right yes okay so we start off with the confidentiality reminding everyone that we are taking this process seriously the Board of Ethics has to try to achieve a more ethical city of Denton organization while at the same time protecting the rights of the accused or innocent until proven guilty and also we're going to treat at least the initial stages of our ethics process in a confidential manner to the extent allowed by law and so we repeat some of that in the very beginning we also want to remind people that there is a prohibition in your code on ex parte communications there's a limitation on the ability of people to communicate with the Board of Ethics once a complaint has been filed there's also restrictions on the Board of Ethics ability to talk to the accused or the complainant or to actual witnesses councilmember Huss hey thanks Ellen question regarding confidentiality yes sir I'd mentioned when we were crafting it maybe stamping the documents did that was that conversation had just because a document gets submitted understanding the language says it's confidential but if that document then it's forwarded someone that receiving party could in theory claim ignorance because there's nothing marking that document is confidential so then that person shares it okay I remember I remember the discussion there's nothing in the code itself or in these rules that says thou shalt stamp documents confidential it says you shall treat them and you shall go to the extent of the law to protect them there is no the rules don't cover things down to that detail thank you certainly when it comes to the meetings some of these provisions are basically repeating but in his plain of English as possible the steps for creating meetings and who can call a meeting the chair person three board members themselves together or the city auditor can convene a meeting of this group we talked about just the procedural steps of calling to order remember your Board of Ethics is seven individuals a quorum is for the City Council made it clear the Open Meetings Act applies to meetings and hearings of the Board of Ethics the first substantive part we get to is advisory opinions if you'll remember any city official can request an advisory opinion and that opinion will be issued by either a panel which is essentially a subcommittee of the Board of Ethics that being three rotating members chosen by the chairperson or the auditor could assign the advisory opinion to outside counsel to special counsel who's been designated by the City Attorney's Office to be available in these sorts of situations although we didn't put it into our rules one thing that was discussed at the Board of Ethics was the issue of time you'll see that the deadline number eight is that by the code of ethics the panel has 30 days to turn around an advisory opinion if for whatever reason maybe a meeting is coming up too quickly to wait 30 days there is a need to to send it out to special counsel to answer that advisory opinion that is an option that's provided for under the ordinance to the city auditor the rest of the section just basically goes through and talks about the meetings for this these panels the panel itself although it's a subcommittee which might be exempt from the Open Meetings Act is required to comply with the Open Meetings Act by decision of the City Council because it's an open meeting if you look at number five participation the Board of Ethics one to make it clear that yes anyone can attend including the complainant or the accused but they don't actually have a right to say anything they just get to observe the proceedings because this is not another hearing a hearing is a separate matter this is just a review of the request for an advisory opinion trying to apply the code of ethics to a specific fact pattern and offer some guidance to that city official councilmember I'll talk was there discussion about who would write the the opinion would it be the chair of the committee or in the three group the three person subcommittee with someone would it be a collaborative effort it was discussed as a collaborative effort I would think they would choose one of themselves perhaps whoever the presiding officer was for that meeting to do it but they didn't make that decision and we didn't offer that guidance that's fine thanks the next step address was preliminary assessments if you'll recall under our code of ethics we have a process for any complaint that is submitted to first be reviewed by the city auditors office to see if it's an actionable complaint or not is excuse me is it administratively complete or not have they checked all the boxes have they filled out the blanks if not the city auditors office as an administrative department will send it back to the complainant and give them a chance to revise update or withdraw their complaint but once it gets past the city auditors office the process is for a preliminary assessment again we have a panel a subcommittee of the Board of Ethics rotating group of three members who will review it those gatherings those meetings are also subject to the Open Meetings Act there's notice provided for that again anyone can attend it's an open meeting so the accused could be there the complainant could be there but this is not a hearing they 're not looking for any extraneous evidence nothing outside of the four corners of the complaint to decide if the facts alleged taken as true would it add up to a violation of the code of ethics if the answer is yes then the complaint moves forward in the process and there will be a public hearing if the answer is no then that panel has the ability to dismiss the complaint at that point if the complaint moves forward then or if there's going to be an appeal of a dismissal of a complaint then that takes you into the hearings process and all the although the code of ethics did not address this level of detail in the rules I proposed and the Board of Ethics chose to go with this notion of having a preliminary hearing a hearing before the substantive evidentiary hearing a chance for the board to rule on any procedural matters whether it's a motion to dismiss or a motion for a continuance or a request for a subpoena and we will have a more thorough discussion later in the document about the subpoena power but the only entity that can issue a sub poena under these rules is the Board of Ethics and we'll discuss that a little bit further of course the evidentiary hearing that's where it kind of looks like sounds like a miniature trial of some sort there'll be witnesses that's my husband thank you I think this is the right spot for it but question did the topic of providing the rules so you're getting into the hearing providing a copy of the rules to the interested parties in advance or either opt out or by default did that come up or your thoughts it did not come up it didn't come up at the Board of Ethics meetings perhaps it's my fault in making an assumption that those would be available online along with everything else we have that section of our website here in Denton I thought that would be available okay if that's sufficient great if we need to do more than that let me know well I think personally maybe it maybe it's just noted you know if you want a copy or one of review before the hearing maybe it's on there that that sort of thing just to kind of direct people are no different than maybe when you're arguing your taxes they say hey do you want a copy of the rules but in this instance they you can go to the website print them review them that sort of thing so everyone both parties the accused and the complainant are required under these rules and under the code of ethics to receive notice from the city of when a hearing is coming up and what the deadlines are I think simply adding to that notice that these procedural rules were available online should be sufficient yeah I think that's okay we'll do that when it comes to scheduling and the calling of the hearings the city auditor shall do that one reason we do that and that I suggested it was to try to make these things as timely as possible and avoid the unnecessary delay of having to reach out to the chairperson and then have the chairperson reach out and try to convene the group again the the reason to have a hearing would be to decide whether or not a panel's dismissal of a complaint was in error or to determine an appeal on whether or not a complaint is actionable we've built in some fairly short deadlines to give notice and clarified we think that's going to be enough time period if you give seven days notice before the hearing occurs then you'll see these other deadlines come in at either four days or three days talk about the purposes of the hearing these are all reflected in the code of ethics just in case we need some clarification of the role of a chairperson basically the chairperson is going to be the presiding officer control the flow of the hearings act as parliamentarian in certain ways ensuring people's opportunities to speak and making sure there's decorum and order in those meetings simple steps calling the order to calling the meeting to order this is something that the Board of Ethics number seven something the Board of Ethics spent some time on I say we also have our vice chairperson here and so they have both of those folks bringing up the issue of recusal when is it available when is it required clearly the code of ethics applies to the Board of Ethics so for example if a member of the Board of Ethics has a conflict of interest as that's defined under our code they would have an obligation to recuse themselves from participating in a hearing on a complaint but the Board of Ethics felt there should be another stated reason and that is that if the appointing City Council member is the subject or a party in a complaint then that member of the Board of Ethics should also step down from the hearing and so we included that in number seven and we also just said if there's any other ethical reason I tried to reiterate to your Board of Ethics that while the council has adopted some rules they as individual public officials have their own code of ethics and if they feel they need to abstain and recuse themselves they should that's why we have a process in place for alternate members to come forward. Some of these things if you're a lawyer or you're involved in the legal system they 'll look they'll look familiar you know announcing the the appearance of the parties an important part based on our code of ethics is one that the council felt pretty strongly about and that is a complainant must come forward and testify during a hearing on a complaint if the complainant is not there at the hearing that is grounds for dismissal of the complaint. It came up at the Board of Ethics meeting that the board does have its own authority to for example table or postpone or delay or reset a hearing on the initiative of the board members they can do that nothing about the code of ethics prevents them from doing that and nothing about the code of ethics prevents a complainant whose complaint is dismissed from coming back and refiling and going through that process again. So the fact that a complainant may fail to attend a hearing is not necessarily the end of that complaint. We talked about procedural requests and what I was hoping to do and the Board of Ethics was supportive was try to limit the ability of a party whether it's the accused or it's the complainant of coming into the hearing and bringing up requests procedural requests for the first time and so we have a requirement that those requests must be filed at least four calendar days before the hearing occurs. That will give the city auditor the opportunity to turn around and share that information with the other parties so that when they walk into a hearing both the Board of Ethics and the complainant and the accused have the same information in their hand and an opportunity to review that in advance. There is a requirement that at least seven days before the hearing the Board of Ethics will notify the parties asking for their witness lists so that those are known and then those can be turned in no less than four days before the hearing and then shared with the parties the board members and the city attorney's office at least three days prior to the hearing. The three-day deadline of course comes from the 72 hour deadline requirement to post agendas for meetings so we try to be consistent with that. Councilmember Armitage. Did the committee discuss what can and cannot be considered evidence, acceptable evidence? There is some provisions lower on in our rules that talks about the weight to be given evidence and that the board has the ability to say whether or not the evidence is relevant and germane to the proceedings. They did not adopt any written standard on how that's determined. It's left to the Board of Ethics. The rather important part that we tried to address in these rules of procedure that was not addressed in depth in the Code of Ethics is the subpoena power. Last November when the voters approved the Charter Amendment that required the council to adopt a code of ethics, required the council to have a separate board to administer it, they also required that there be subpoena power. We had a few discussions at the council level you may remember last spring but we didn't actually have any decisions about what the scope of that power would be and how it would be utilized and I believe the consensus was to defer those decisions until we got to the procedural rules. So here we are at the procedural rules and I believe that the Board of Ethics members as a group collectively agreed with my concerns individually about the scope of this power and how it could be subject to abuse and also if it's not reasonable and somewhat limited, the unbridled use of the subpoena power I believe could unduly engage the City of Denton and the Board of Ethics in a lot of litigation. For example, I imagine there's a lot there are many groups out there who if they received a subpoena from the Board of Ethics for say for example financial records from some institution, that financial institution I think is quite likely to have their lawyer just say no or we're going to seek to to squash that subpoena and we're gonna go to court and try to get a judge to come to our side or we're just going to ignore it. Yeah so a couple of questions about that. Kind of first a statement. So I've been following these discussions before I was on council fairly regularly but there were some things I missed but I don't remember any discussion up until this point of these potential you know the legal quagmire of subpoena power expressed by you anyway. I remember there had been some concerns on council at the time about subpoena power and what that entails. So this is a concern that that you've had this whole time and has it just come up for the first time in these discussions with the Board of Ethics or did I miss some prior discussion of that when this came question of subpoena power came before council? It came up before council and it was an issue that came up toward the end of the process because we prior to that we had not been focused on the fact that the Charter Amendment required it. If it had not been in the Charter Amendment that was approved in November I would not have recommended it and it would have not been something that I'm in favor of. I think it's I think just across the board subpo ena power regardless of what entity is trying to exercise it is complicated and I think that it meets a lot of resistance and some sort of broad use of the subpoena power by the Board of Ethics would also be contrary to the council's fundamental choice during our drafting process which was that the burden is on the complainant to come forth with evidence. There's no one at the City of Denton who's prosecuting these ethics complaints on behalf of the city or the public or the complainant. It's the complainant who has the burden to come forward with enough data to show that these facts occurred and these facts add up to either an act or omission under our Code of Ethics and therefore punishable. So to put the Board of Ethics in the position of originating and seeking out additional facts outside of the complaint is a little bit contrary is significantly contrary to the approach the City Council took. So our challenge became how do you stay consistent with the approach the council took throughout the drafting process and still honor the will of the voters as evidenced through the Charter Amendment and that 's what led to this. Yeah and to me as far as my opinion is concerned I believe that you know the will of the voters is tantamount to you know the whatever council had decided you know prior to that point so if and and I do understand that subpoena power is in here you know but it's very I guess you could say watered you know I'm concerned that it's watered down I'm also aware that I'm not a lawyer and don't know I'm not aware of the potential problems to the extent that you are you know I would be curious to know other cities whose ethics committees have subpoena power what problems have they encountered and you know and also what would be the harm and say if we allow them to subpoena anything outside of what is in direct under direct control and possession of city officials if there was some sort of legal challenge you know brought before us or somebody just put their foot down and said no and if you try any further I'll sue you I mean could couldn't the committee just say okay and then back off then or what maybe that's a naive question but you know what would be other than it is encountering a legal obstacle enough of a problem in and of itself to justify diluting the subpoena power to this extent or what are could we possibly do a you know could the committee consider a kind of experimentation phase where you see you know kind of find out what happens and cross that bridge where when you come to it and tweak it as you go maybe it's too late in the process for that but I think you could I think you could experiment as you go I think it's reasonable for everyone both the council and the Board of Ethics to assume that you know six months from now or at some point will be amending these rules and will be amending the Code of Eth ics because we will have learned some things as implementation goes goes through the process I'm a little bit more conservative by nature when it comes to advising clients along these lines of the 18 different city codes we reviewed and sampled from and drafting Denton's code overwhelmingly the majority of them do not have subpoena power and I think I know the reason even you know city councils who have subpoena power in their charter have a great deal of risk and difficulty in exercising that and city attorneys are often trying to to scale that back to avoid exposure I think based on the the voters didn't give us a lot of specificity about the breadth or depth of the subpoena power and who exercises it and so I believe what you have in front of you is my best effort to honor what the voters have requested honor what the council's guidance were and with the feedback from the Board of Eth ics come up with something they felt comfortable exercising my recommendation would be to go forward with something like this and if it's being abused well then you the council need to take this back into consideration and modify it if the the evidentiary process you get isn't yielding the results you need then perhaps you need to broaden the subpoena power and spend some more time on it but from from my position as a legal advisor it's hard for me to recommend going much beyond this and and you're fortunate you you the City Council and you you require there to be some lawyers on your Board of Ethics we have a lawyer as our chair person someone who's very familiar with the government's exercise of subpoena power I think you're in a good position to start this and test drive it I hope that the the Board of Ethics and the public the voters think this is a reasonable way to memorialize and execute what they chose to do but this power is a little bit difficult and cumbersome to wield thanks so much for explaining that thank you certainly more questions or comments on the subpoena power you any mention of redaction here so for example and I don't know that it would come up but I'll this the best I can do on short notice so cell phone records right so I I can redact my account number etc etc and and get down to the meat of what the either I choose to defend myself or is requested by the board let's see if I can find I miss what I was looking for excuse me we don't specifically use the word redaction what we say in these rules are that information that the Board of Ethics receives through this process that was confidential when it was given to them shall be treated as confidential throughout this process and when the proceedings are over then the original shall be returned to the source of that data and that the copies will be destroyed in compliance with the city's records retention schedule under the record retention act there's no discussion of redacting any of that material we're just to treat it as confidential to the extent we're allowed to under the Public Information Act and if an open records request comes in for that data and they won't agree to accept the redacted material then that's going to require the city of Denton to go to the Attorney General 's office for a ruling and just follow the procedures for that data as you would any other data that comes into your possession so there's no if I may thank you so there's no prohibition on that so for example I have a hearing coming up I redacted there's nothing that say I can't that's correct okay and and so I would just whenever the board meets again if that's problematic then you know maybe they'll come back and tailor some language to address that maybe don't think it's necessary but you know it to me outside looking in is problematic that there's no because I can bring you a document that's entirely red acted and but for maybe a heading and it meets this requirement so and this specific point did not come up at the at the Board of Ethics meeting again trying to come up with some basic rules to guide this group without being overly legalistic and coming up with a set of rules of civil procedure I have been in a position in other communities where I have been hired to be the lawyer defending a city council member who's been accused of an ethics violation by another city council member and I've gone through and played that role of defense lawyer now I hope that not every complaint that's filed results in everybody lawyering up that can get expensive but I think you should anticipate that's going to happen sometimes and if I'm the lawyer for an accused who's having to hand over data and I think some of that data is confidential or privileged I'm going to be redacting that data and one of the procedural motions I 'm going to make at the front end of this process is to get a protective order on that material from the Board of Ethics all of a sudden the Board of Ethics starts sounding like a court doesn't it and I think I think it's gonna be hard to avoid but I'm encouraging everyone to take some steps at the front end to try to avoid that now that's something we want to have well it's easy enough to go ahead and expand these rules or procedure to address those types of things otherwise I think you're just sort of hoping that when folks go through this process they act you know reasonably with some common sense but you know if everyone acted reasonably in common sense I'd be unemployed it could be added later if you think it's necessary sure no I think I think that's good thank you Councilmember Meltzer appreciate it I just ask given the fact that this isn't your first rodeo and and you looked at a lot of other ordin ances as well and have helped other other boards get started is there anything besides the subpoena power that's exotic or novel or is this mostly kind of well tested I think I think most of the components are on it are well tested I think you know the novel parts or things such as I mentioned I complain it must testify or the complaint gets dismissed I haven't seen that before I don't have any problem with that it makes certain sense why the council chose that but that that is something that's a little bit unique but otherwise you know there are there are other ordinances that have a pre-screening mechanism to them there are other ordinances and other cities that have a staff review of what's a middle admission turned in I think that one thing that I'm proud of the council's choices thus far is that I think there's a lot more transparency and open meetings compliance with this version than most other ethics code I've seen normally in a community the ethics process is very is very secretive and I understand that you're trying to protect people's reput ations but also you're trying to obtain public trust it's a tough balance but no I don't think there's anything particularly cutting-edge about this what 's cutting edge about it from my perspective is the council did not just take another city's ordinance make a few tweaks and slap their name on it instead they went through a very long deliberative process looking at every different section negotiating and debating it and making their choices and so I think that it reflects the best of a lot of different cities rules great thank you certainly if we're okay on on the subpoena power we can move on to talk about exhibits just properly labeling decorum of course the chairperson is responsible for enforcing decorum the council stressed that all testimony will be sworn so the complaint itself is sworn and the witnesses will be sworn simple to orderly orderly presentation of materials the complaining gets to go first the accused gets to respond we will have opening statements you'll see here that the entire length of time given for each side is 30 minutes so they get it so much for their opening so much for presentation of their witnesses and they can have a closing and reserve some for rebuttal one point that was discussed at council but no decision was made but is being addressed here is that the Board of Ethics felt strongly that there should be a right to cross-examination not every code of ethics allows for that the cross-exam ination of witnesses by the other party but your Board of Ethics felt strongly about that that it's an essential aspect of providing due process and that's something they wanted to have and so we went ahead and provided for that now obviously somebody who wants to spend a lot of their time cross-examining the other person's witnesses is going to eat up their time and we even discussed practicalities is the Board of Ethics going to have to have how many timers one timer two timer three timers to maintain that level of fairness in sticking to that and yes if the Board of Ethics itself wants to provide for more time to a party for one reason or another they're allowed to do that under these rules but for the most part they've got 30 minutes and I believe your Board of Eth ics is sticking with what I had recommended of trying not to make these hearings a long drawn out procedure but something that's somewhat expeditious in the code of in the code of ethics the council provided that each party can be represented by legal counsel they're not required to but they can one thing we tried to establish in these rules is if a party is represented by a lawyer and they choose to let that lawyer conduct the presentation of evidence then only the lawyer gets to offer witnesses question witnesses cross-ex amine witnesses and those sorts of things the actual party can't also be popping up and asking questions or arguing with witnesses we don't want this to be a circus and I don't expect it will be but the Board of Ethics wanted to try to address that in these rules councilmember husband so to that point legal representation lawyer versus legal counsel as there's a tangent difference there for me how do you read it I read legal counsel as lawyer and same as an attorney okay you see the time limitations the ability to have closing and just as if you're in trial you can reserve some of your time for a rebuttal we point out that because the Board of Ethics is subject to the Open Meetings Act which essentially means you have to provide notice three days in advance you have to let the public come watch and listen and you have to keep minutes of what's going on but because they are subject to the Open Meetings Act we're also making it clear they get to go into executive session when allowed by the Open Meetings Act and it's my opinion that because this covers city officials if it's a city city officials are involved as the parties then that's covered by the personnel exception to the Open Meetings Act which doesn't just cover employees and also and then of course you'd be able to go behind closed doors to confer with the city attorney so at some point I'll be handing this off to to mr. Leal and his office is already advising your Board of Ethics but that's that's my opinion we do clarify in more than one spot and the rules of procedures that why the Board of Ethics might be able to discuss matters in executive session all decision-making must take place in open session they cannot take straw polls they cannot get the pulse for each other no decisions behind closed doors that's part of being a public entity as you have to make those decisions out in open session when it comes to the reliability of the evidence this is taken from the the code evidence that a reasonably prudent person would commonly rely on we did not go into the sorts of details you would find in court proceedings and we left it with the discretion of the board how much weight to assign to certain evidence we reminded everyone that the burden of proof is on the complainant this is not the city of Denton prosecuting a case it's not the burden on the accused to prove them self innocent the complainant must show this activity occurred and the activity violates our code of ethics we address the determinations at some point when the when the presentation of evidence has closed the chairperson must call for a vote all votes are to be voice votes with the option that a member of the Board of Ethics can require that there be a roll call vote and everyone go on the roll individually as voting they need to make their determination regarding whether a violation occurred yes or no if yes they have to decide what the sanction is and pursuant to our code of ethics they've got ten business days after the hearing to decide what that sanction will be so it is possible that they have a hearing on one day they can't reach a consensus that night and so they have to come back for another meeting to actually make their decision on the sanction it was asked that we specifically make some some determinations in section 28 regarding alternates if you recall we have seven board members that are appointed by the council and then three alternates and the purpose of an alternate is in case a board member is absent or perhaps they need to recuse themselves from an item for a conflict or some other reason if so we're asking that the board immediately which is within 24 hours let the city auditor know that they'll either be absent or they'll be recusing themselves so that the city auditor can notify an alternate to come and the decision was made that determining who the alternates going to be which alternates going to come up is going to be the decision of the chairperson and that is it for the rules of procedure as presented to you this does have the unanimous support of the Board of Ethics they referred it to you for your consideration do you have any questions comments or suggestions at this point council member arm ator yes so that sounds great and thank you for your help with this and thanks most of all to the committee for for doing this doing such a great job I was wondering if is there a plan for the Ethics Committee to meet on a regular basis even if there's not a complaint or or will they just yes that question came up it 's on the early on in the rules about meetings they added to it on their own initiative that there shall be at least an annual meeting so if there's complaints they will meet in accordance with the schedule for those complaints but absent a complaint they will let me they will meet at least once a year I like that that was that was their initiative I wish I thought of it I'll take credit for in the next town though any other questions or comments council member Duff yeah I just want to make a comment I think you know what we've come up with I think is something that hopefully it we're never going to have to use it and I think as strong as this thing is I think it should be a deterrent councilman D uff had to sit through at least 20 plus hours of ethics conversations with me this year or I'm sure I said in every meeting the number one thing that's going to result in a city of Denton organization that has greater integrity is going to be conversations it's going to be discussions about ethics it 's going to be conversations about values that's spending your time on training throughout the organization is going to yield a better result than these rules and procedures ever will but to have that deterrent there to have a way for citizens or members of this group to bring their grievances forward in an orderly respectful way that is based on standards and based on due process you had to have an ordinance and you had to have rules and you 've done that but you're right I don't think as hard as we've worked on these rules this is not what's going to make people make better decisions it's going to be the training and the day-to-day conversation and the expectations we each have of one another any questions or comments I just want to thank you and I want to thank the board excellent job anytime you can bring something to this council that we are giving you a bunch of input making you change stuff you did an excellent job thank you it's been a pleasure and we and we do have our chairperson here I'll yield the floor if you have any questions for him any questions for I think we are good all right thank you very much thank you very much and that brings us to the end of our work session items we will now stand adjourned at 533 and we will reconvene at 630 for our regular session up in the council chambers , thank you. Thanks Billy. To this regular meeting of the city of Benton City Council it is 632 and we will start with the Pledge of Allegiance please rise if you're able and join us. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Honor the Texas flag I pledge allegiance to the Texas one state under God one indivisible. We've got a couple of proclamations today the first one is North Texas international overdose awareness day. Do we have anyone here to come down if you'd like to come down and and join us down here. Hi, would you like to introduce yourself and who you're with? I'm Sharon Rowland and I'm with the North Texas international overdose awareness day this is our initial event so we're excited and appreciate the proclamation. My name is George Rowland I'm a criminal defense lawyer in Denton I'm Sharon's son. And I'm also working with and here on behalf of the North Texas international overdose awareness day event. Thank you. Proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton to all whom these presence shall come greetings, whereas our nation is facing an opioid epidemic with the Center of Disease Control reporting over 64,000 people died from overdose in a 12 month period prior to 2017, resulting in a serious public health crisis with devastating social and economic consequences. And whereas all individuals and communities are impacted by this crisis, including Denton County, whose overdose deaths have steadily increased from 25 in 2013 to 37 in 2017, as reported by the Denton record Chronicle on April 11 2018. And whereas drug addiction is a chronic illness and fat alities from overdoses are preventable, and where, whereas international overdose awareness day, I oh ad is a global event, which originated in Melbourne, Australia. In 2001, as a single community event, and now is observed annually on August 31 in over 19 countries, hosting more than 500 registered events. And whereas North Texas, I oh ad event has been planned with the goals of uniting and educating the community against opioid epidemic, reducing the stigma of overdose and addiction, supporting individuals and families fighting addiction and remembering those who lost their lives to addiction. And whereas didn't is it is a city and county where citizens truly care about each other and and work together as a community to protect and support all people, and where the citizens share the goals of the North Texas, I oh ad. And whereas in 2004, I john Ryan, on behalf of Mayor Chris Watts of the city of Denton, Texas, do hereby declare and proclaim August 31 2018 as North Texas International overdose awareness day, and the citizens of the city of Denton and surrounding areas will be able to celebrate August 31 as North Texas I oh ad day, a time to remember a time to act. Next up we have live United Month. Come on. All right. Go ahead and introduce yourselves. Gary Henderson CEO of United Way of Denton County. Mary Curtis on the board. Ellen painter board member. We have a proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton to all whom these presence shall come greetings, whereas United Way of Denton County in powers donors volunteers businesses governments nonprofits and community groups to invest in neighbors for a better Denton County community. And whereas United Way of Denton County lives, United for Denton County to help children and families succeed to guide and serve veterans and their families to advocate for all mental health, and to make homelessness, rare, brief, and non recurring. And whereas United Way of Denton County helps 80,000 people each year across the county. And whereas United Way of Denton County seeks to increase efficiencies and eliminate redundancies to bet better meet the people's needs through collaborative programs, and to solve complex social, social economic problems. Denton County celebrates 65 years. Improving lives across Denton County. Now therefore, I john Ryan on behalf of Chris Watts mayor of Denton, Texas do hereby declare and proclaim the month of September 2018 is live United met month, and ask you to join United Way of Denton County board donors volunteers in calling all residents to live United. And third and final proclamation of the evening is for national payroll week. Yes. All right. Go ahead and read it. Proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton, Texas, to all whom these presence shall come greetings, whereas the American payroll Association and its 20,000 members have launched a nationwide public awareness campaign that pays tribute to nearly 150 million people who work in the United States, and the payroll professionals who support the American system by paying wages reporting workers earnings and withholding federal employment taxes. And whereas payroll professionals in Denton Texas play a key role in maintaining the economic health of didn't carrying out such diverse tasks as paying into unemployment insurance system, providing information to child support enforcement and carrying out tax withholding reporting and depositing. And whereas payroll departments collectively spend more than $2.4 trillion annually, comp lying with a myriad of federal and state wage and tax laws. And whereas payroll professionals pay increasingly important role in ensuring the economic security of American families by helping to identify non custodial parents and making sure they comply with their child support mandates. And whereas payroll professionals have become increasingly proactive in educating both business community and the public at large about payroll tax withholding systems. And whereas payroll professionals meet regularly with federal and state tax officials to discuss both improving compliance with government procedures, and how compliance can be achieved at less cost for both government and businesses. And whereas the week of Labor Day falls falls has been proclaimed national payroll week. I hereby give support to the effort of the people who work in Denton Texas, and of the payroll professionals by proclaiming the first week of September payroll week for didn't Texas. Therefore, I john Ryan, on behalf of our mayor Chris Watts, do hereby declare and proclaim September 2 through eighth as national payroll week in the city of Denton, encourage all citizens to support the education and practices of this organization. And if we can roll the rules of procedure for addressing the council. The Denton City Council has adopted rules of procedure, including a code of conduct that applies to citizens, as well as council members. These rules were enacted to promote an orderly process and to preserve decorum. Here is a brief review of the rules that apply to citizen reports. Citizens will have four minutes to give a scheduled citizen report and four minutes to give an open mic report, there will be an electronic bell when time has expired. If the remarks are not concluded by that time, the citizen will be asked to stop speaking. If the citizen does not cease and a second request is made, the mayor will request to have the citizen removed from the council chamber citizens are asked not to approach the dais . If a citizen has papers or other materials to hand out to the council, please let the city secretary know in advance for scheduled citizen reports, the council may initiate discussion or questions following each citizen report for non scheduled open mic citizen reports, the council may listen to citizens speak. However, because no notice of the subject of the open mic report has been provided to the public in advance the Texas Open Meetings Act limits any deliberation or decision by the council to a proposal to place the item on a future agenda, a statement of factual policy, or a recitation of existing policy. Citizens are asked to direct all remarks and questions to the council as a whole, and not to any individual member, please refrain from making abusive personal impertinent profane or slanderous remarks, anyone who violates this council rule of procedure may be immediately removed from the council chamber. Thank you in advance copies of the rules of procedure are available from the city secretary. And we have one person who signed up for the regular citizens report. Under be one on your Martinez, regarding an update on the Emporium of Denton Children's Museum. Like to come down and state. Thank you. Actually I thought this was going to be on here. That's not me. So, sorry, well I sent it, and they said they get it on so. Hi, how are you? Hi, is it on here? So yeah, let me just my speaking notes were on there so I wanted to make sure I had access to those. Okay. Hi, my name is Martina's and I'm the founder and director of Explorium Denton Children's Museum. I want to thank you all for the opportunity to give you an update on our project, and I also want to thank you for the opportunity to apply for hot funds and other means of helping us get meet our goals. And I wanted to give you just a brief update of what's been going on in the beginning, this actually isn't the very beginning but this is the beginning of where we're headed now, we actually were founded in 2012 in 2016 I looked at a space out at Stonehill Center and we signed a lease on a space in March of 2017. And we had a design team come to Denton in June, and work on a design for what is going on now, what you will see here shortly. And in August, through about October every Saturday we were up at the museum scraping tile and removing blue carpet at the museum site so we were able to employ a lot of volunteers from the community to make that happen and we're thankful for that. And we waited, and we waited, and we waited some more. And we finally got on the builder schedule and so about January we were able to start applying for building permits and all the necessary paperwork to be filled out and so it's kind of hard to see but those are some kind of before shots of an empty space and then the lower left hand corner is digging some plumbing and then you've got some framing going up for what's going to be a private nursing area. And then what you'll see in the next one, I can get this to go. We eventually got to start building some real stuff so this is the beginnings of our climbing structure that's affectionately known as the chicken coop it's going to look kind of like a giant chicken coop, kind of a nod to our urban chicken culture and the areas and the surrounding communities. So we finally got to start kind of seeing some real progress but we couldn't really do anything else until that was done. Everything was kind of working around that so eventually got to start building stuff and we started ordering and assembling fixtures and furnishing so again, using a lot of volunteers from the community on our Saturdays, having people build stuff so that was a nice way to involve the community. Finally, things really started coming together once we got some flooring in and we started throwing some color up on the walls. This was not only a real charge to you know getting things done but it was a real morale booster because it's pretty depressing going into the empty building every day and not really seeing much progress so color is progress for sure. And now our board, several of whom are here already for this last push to get open. This is a shot on the right of kind of the, what it's really going to look like once it's all put together. We've got some furnishings there that will be our maker space. You can kind of see the chicken coop in the background and the colors coming together. And soon, this will not just be a sign on an empty building , this will be an actual space for you to bring your children, your grandchildren, your family members to learn and play together. And I am ready to start cleaning up and get the mess organized. Meanwhile, we continue to do our outreach in the community. We do an annual gardening camp at Calhoun Middle School. We do outreach in the community at schools and daycares and libraries and we do traveling science lessons and we were going to have to wait to do our first steam camp because we weren't open by summer but we decided to do it anyway off site and so we utilized our, our old office, as I will call it, at the North Lakes Annex, and it was a huge success so we were thrilled to be able to still utilize that space. Very thankful for that relationship that we have with the city. And we are thankful. I don't know why the co-serve picture isn't popping up on here but we're very thankful for the relationships we formed with such entities as co-serve. They gave us our first really big grant back in the spring to help fund our, one of our exhibit spaces. And we also have partnerships with folks like the Denton Public School Foundation. We actually give a scholarship to them every spring as a result of our Touch a Truck fundra iser which draws in about 4,000 people in a single day which is really exciting. So just in conclusion because I know I only have a couple of minutes. We finally have an opening date very soon. It'll be, I can 't go back in the next couple of weeks. So thank you again for the opportunity to give you all an update. I'm happy to answer any questions if you have any. I think we have a couple of questions. Councilman Hussb acher. Thank you very much and I appreciate the presentation. It's good. It's awesome to see the progress and, and no one knows construction woes more than us here. But I have a question. So if someone's looking to help or donate volunteer what kind of what what are the needs currently that someone watching this could reach out and do or what are ways that people can support you. Thank you for asking. Aside from, you know, typically yes fundraising is always an issue with a nonprofit, we are looking for monthly donors that would be a huge support. North Texas giving day is coming up in a few short weeks. That'll be a great opportunity to give because those funds get some bulk added to them by the community's foundation. We're up there just about every day. I'm trying to just paint stuff and clean stuff and put things together. So probably just contacting me directly if you're interested in actually physically doing some work up there. And you can reach me at info at Explorium.org. That's probably the easiest way our phone still isn't installed. So it's just my cell phone ringing which is totally fine to 940-595-4001. So yeah, just bringing your kids and your and your grand kids and telling your neighbors that we're finally opening, bringing them out and you're all invited to our ribbon cutting which has been scheduled for September 24th at 4pm. So lots of ways you can be an active participant. Yes, sir. That was info at Explorium.org, correct? Explorium.org. Explorium.org. I just wanted to tell you that I heard you present on this at Rotary and I thought, well, that's a nice dream. Yeah, that'll probably never happen. And I can't believe how little time it's been since you gave that presentation. I'm just so impressed. Thank you. I just want to express that to you. Thank you. It's not just me. I raise your hands, guys. Wow. And my family, definitely my husband and my kids have been dealing with this for six years. So really impressive. Thank you. Councilmember Armitage. First, I wanted to say congratulations on this dream fulfilled. It's really, really wonderful and exciting to see. I had two questions. One, is it true that you got your start at the Denton Community Market? You are darned to insist. We did get our start at the community market. We joined them in the 2013 season and Vicki's here. She can attest to that. So we are proof of the importance of the market as a startup hub. It's not just for businesses. It can be for nonprofits as well. So we did that for two full seasons and then we took our show on the road. Well, that's just amazing. So kudos to you and just like you said, the community market is a business hub. And secondly, do you plan to rent part of the space for birthdays? Is that a...? You betcha. We are working on that. I've actually been getting calls on birthday parties for four years. Will you come to our house? We tried to make that work and it just was, it was hard. So yes, we're getting tons of inquiries about parties and the information is actually already on our website. So there's a form you can fill out and we'll get back to you about that. So yes, we are thrilled to offer another option for parents to have parties for their children. Excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you for asking. Council member Brooks. Hi. Thank you for having me. There's something some people may not know is that the city of Denton is growing in our family and children population. And so something we are severely lacking are children's activities. So I am very glad to see the progress and I think it's much needed for our community. I agree. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you. Well, thank you very much. I think it's a fantastic project and we wish you all success. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. We will move on to item 3C, additional citizens reports, which is our open mic session and we have one blue card from Willie Huspeth. Come down, state your name and address . Your time will begin. Councilmembers, my name is Willie Huspeth. I live at 623 Newton. Just as a thought and just to share with you some of my concerns, there are 19 consent agenda items. Let me give you my definition of consent item. Things that are on the consent that have not been discussed in the public, which the public has very little information about. And they're voted with no discussion at all. That's a consent agenda. I don't think that's government like we should have here in the city. But I guess I'm just me and citizens who have time if we can just do it. We just have to go into those things. I noticed there are about five large monetary amounts that you voted through. Five. Then there was some land situations. So we just have to get on that. We meaning me. The other thing I want to talk to you about is you have not yet made a statement about the Confederate monument, one way or the other, as a council. I think you ought to. Thank you, but that's just my thought . One way or the other. It's in our city. Are you in favor of it being erected where it is and the status that's given to it. One way or the other. Say as a council. I'm in favor of it being erected where it is and the status that's given to it. One way or the other. Say as a council. I'm in favor of it being erected where it is and the status that's given to it. One way or the other. That I think you could get on board with. He is going to walk for notoriety, just information from Seattle, Washington. From West Palm Beach, Florida to Seattle, Washington. Can you put that up on the screen? Say it again. Billy, can we turn on the overhead? Okay. His whole point, you have that sheet in front of you, is to say we should be unified as a country. Not stating what we should do, he's just saying we should be unified. I think we can all get involved with that. I think that's a good thing. If we're together on something. I'm really excited about this. I'm going to walk when he, not much, but I'm going to walk some. I'm going to give him money. Right here, when he enters Texas, right here in about two days, I'm not sure, maybe a week, he'll come be right here. He is right now, right here. He's going to go all the way through. When he gets here in the Denton area, he's going to have a rally. We're just going to just talk and have fun and hoop it up and say, yes, we need to be unified. We need to be unified. He purposely left out what do we do to get unified, because as soon as you do, someone's going to find fault with it. Don't we all agree? We should do something to be unified, and we ought to talk about it. The last thing I want to show you is, he's done this before . He went another direction, went from Texas to Florida. He is going to walk for 90 days. He's going to cover 333, let's see, 3,300 miles. He's going to walk the whole distance. He won't walk all the time. He will stop. That's something I'm hoping that you can get behind and support. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Hespeth. We'll move on to item four, the consent agenda. Councilmember Briggs. I would like to move approval of the consent agenda items except for, I believe, A, B, and G. We're pulling for small presentations. With motion to have this. Councilmember Meltzer. Second. Thank you. We have a motion and a second for the consent agenda, except for items A, B, and G. If you would please vote on the board. And the motion passes six to zero. And I've been informed by our city manager that item B has been pulled until next week that it will come back at that point. That's correct. So we will now take up item A. Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem, City Council. Good evening, George Morrow, DMA General Manager. The item before you, the one I'm going to give, I have just a couple slides, is the confidentiality agreement with Trailstone Power. And what we're hoping to do is eventually execute bilateral enabling agreement so that we can do business with them in the future. So that's kind of the process between electric utilities. We put the framework together first, the basic boilerplate of doing business. And out of that, it sits on the shelf. And then if and when there's a possible transaction of mutual benefit, then we go ahead and consummate that underneath that agreement. And the one we'll be working on with Trailstone is called an EEI master power purchase agreement. A little different than the NASBE, but very similar. NASBE is for gas, and this one would be more for electricity, for power. Now, the purpose of the confidentiality agreement is we want to verify their financial position. And they're a private company, and we've asked them for some financial records. And the confidentiality agreement is one that lets them feel comfortable giving us those records that we're not going to do something, you know, splash them out there because they're a private company. And that's in accordance with our risk policy, that we do evaluate all of our different counterparties with respect to credibility on the financial side. So brought this to the public utility board, had a discussion, and they recommended it approved 6-0. So I'm here asking for also your approval of the ordinance for this confidentiality agreement. Councilmember Armitage. Thank you for that explanation. I had requested it to be pulled because I will, as a matter of course, be asking for confidentiality agreements to be discussed before the public on council. I appreciate your explanation, and I agree that this is a legitimate reason to have a confidentiality agreement. And I think in these kinds of cases, once the public hears the reason for it, not just written on an agenda, but actually heard from a human being and seen that it's discussed, then that does a lot, I think, for the public trust. So thank you for taking the time to do that. Thank you for the opportunity. Councilmember Hussman. Thank you. I move approval. Councilmember Riggs. Second. All right. We have a motion and a second on consent agenda item A, which is to consider adoption of an ordinance. The city didn't authorize the city managers or designees to execute a confidentiality agreement with Trailstone. Let's vote on the board. And the motion carries six to zero. We will now move on to item 4G, consider an adoption of an ordinance authorizing the city manager is designated execute an agreement with amendment to the transmission operations maintenance, as regards to TMPA. Thank you Mayor Pro Tem. As you know, we're members of the Texas Municipal Power Agency, and under that membership we have access to some power resources. And back when those power plant was built, there was a need to develop transmission. That was back in the days when the air cod grid wasn't quite as robust and healthy as it is today so you had to actually get out there and build some power lines and so lines were built from this project north of Houston to Dent on to Garland and to Bryan and Greenville. Those are the participants in that project. What we noticed some years ago is that the TMPA transmission system in the Denton area was getting intertw ined with our own system. And there were, there was a lot of correlation and, you know, one pole might have something of ours, another might have some equipment that belonged to TMPA. It at Garland actually managed that system at the time here within the city of Denton and just seem more practical and efficient cost effective to us, plus gave us better control over the system. If we were to take over that so we brought that forward and the other participants TMPA agreed that Denton could be responsible for the TMPA transmission assets in Denton, and we executed that agreement. April 1 of 2016, it expires in September, September 1. And so we're before you today asking for a two year amendment extension, very simple amendment that we will continue providing that maintenance and operation of that TMPA transmission system in Denton for that two year extension period. Also, this went to the public utility board and they concur red with and recommended your adoption 6-0. Councilmember Braves. Thank you. I pulled this just for clarification for the public because when they see TMPA that this is for transmission only, it's not for the Gib bons Creek coal plant. That's totally correct. Right. And so, can you explain why it's for two years, what the the amendment for two years, why why to why not for why not one. I think there's going to be a time when TMPA might look at unwinding its transmission assets. Part of them might be offered to sale to a third party that's down in the southern part of the system, not in the Denton area, and the rest of their system if they, you know, if they move forward with what they're trying to do with asset divers ification or divestiture, then the transmission would be. At that point, there might be another plan for the transmission. We may actually acquire it, you know, in fee title. And so we're just allowing this agreement to kind of get to that point where we're going to have some serious discussions about how to divide up those transmission assets. Thank you. Councilmember has been. Thank you. Thank you. I'm a fix it this time. So, I move that. I approve item G on the consent agenda. Councilmember Melzer. Second the motion. We have a motion and a second. Is there any further discussion. We will vote on the board for consent agenda. Item G. And the motion carries six to zero. We'll now move on to. Agenda five, a items for individual consideration. It is conducted conduct the second of two readings and consider adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton for the voluntary annex section of approximately 47.66 acres east of the intersection of Ryan road and Andrew Anthony. Thank you. Councilmember Melzer. And the second item is the second of two public hearings. For the record Cindy Jackson with the development services. Department. This is the second of two public hearings. For this annexation. A 18 dash zero zero one. Tonight you are going to have the second. Second. Reading. It should be the second reading. are located on the south side of East Ryan Road, which you can see right here, north of Creekdale. It's approximately 47.66 acres, and the applicant is proposing single family development. As you recall, the plot has already been approved per the pre-annexation development agreement. Since this is the final reading of the ordinance , I'm going to read the caption of the ordinance into the record. This is an ordinance of the City of Denton, Texas, voluntarily annexing approximately 47.466 acres of land, generally located on the south side of East Ryan Road, east of the intersection of East Ryan Road and Andrew Avenue by the City of Denton, Denton County, Texas, more specifically described in Exhibit A and illustrated in Exhibit B, providing for a correction to the city map to include the annexed lands, providing for a savings clause, and an effective date. That concludes my presentation. Thank you very much. Any questions of staff? I do have one blue card. So have you heard, I was wondering if you could speak to concerns from the community that you may have heard? Well, quite frankly, I haven't heard any concerns yet. We do have a rezoning of the property coming in to you in September. The notices went out for that this week. So I expect to hear from them shortly. Okay. Thanks. Any other questions? Okay. We have a blue card from Mr. Willie Hesmith. You don't wish to speak on this item? All right. Any other questions? If not, the Chair will entertain a motion. Council Member Briggs. I move approval of the annexation. Do I need to read the whole thing or is that good? I'll read it. Okay. All right. Council Member Hesmith. Second. All right. We have a motion and a second to consider adoption of an ordinance of the City of Denton to voluntarily annex approximately 47.66 acres off of Ryan Road and Andrews Avenue. Let's vote on the board. And the motion carries six to zero. We'll now move on to item 5B, consider nominations and appointments to the City's Economic Development Partnership Board. Good evening, Mayor Pro Tem and Council Members. I'm Caroline Booth, Director of Economic Development, and I am here to present the slate of nominees for your consideration to the Economic Development Partnership Board. Sorry. There's just not enough room up here. So the Economic Development Partnership Board is appointed by the City Council and serves as an advisory body to the Council. Its members fall into specific categories based on the ordinance that governs the body, and the list is up there. I'm not going to read it to you. The terms for the members are two years long, and members can serve up to three terms. The nominating process is that the City Council appoints a nominating committee comprised of two Council Members and one Chamber Member, and Mayor Pro Tem Ryan and Council Member Meltzer were our Council Members this year on the committee , and Lee Ramsey of Orison Holdings was the Chamber Member. The nominating committee's responsibilities are to confirm the candidate's eligibility and willingness to serve and to compile the slate of nominees, and then the slate is presented to you for a vote. And here is the slate of nominees for your consideration. The first six there, Marty Rivers, Gerard Hudspeth, Steve Edgar, Neil Smatresk, and K areen Faitan are all returning nominees. The last two, Chris Davis of Peterbilt and Tony Clark of Independent Bank, are two new members, and Chris Davis replaces Jim Fikes, who has retired from Peterbilt, and Tony Clark is replacing Carol Ann Simmons, who has reached her term limit on the board. And I can tell you a little bit more about both of those nominees. Mr. Davis has been with PACCAR, Peterbilt's parent company, for 19 years, and he's been the plant manager here at Peterbilt in Denton for about a year. This is the third time that he has worked in Denton during his career with PACCAR. And as a company, Peterbilt is a significant supporter of United Way here in Denton, and Chris is involved annually with those campaigns, and he's also coordinated Peterbilt's involvement with the Touch a Truck event, which you heard a reference to earlier, school supply drives, and last year 's Hurricane Harvey relief efforts. Tony Clark is executive vice president and regional CEO at Independent Bank here in Denton, and he's held that position since 2017. He was president, CEO, and a board member of North Star Bank here in Denton from 1999 to 2017. He's been chair of the Denton Chamber of Commerce and president of United Way of Denton County, and is currently a board member of United Way of Denton County. So there is your slate, and I'm glad to answer any questions that you may have. Any questions? Councilmember Armator? Yes. I was wondering if you could explain the requirement for the top 20 taxpayer and what the rationale was behind making that a requirement, if you know. Since the board was initially formed before I was here, I can't say exactly what the rationale was, but I think that probably one of the reasons behind it is that the top 20 taxpayers, and they're important businesses in our community that contribute a lot of revenue to the city and also are usually some of our largest private employers. So having their voice on a board like the Economic Development Partnership Board is important. Thank you. Thanks. Any other questions of staff? I do have one blue card that wishes to speak on the item. Mr. Willie Hespeth, you're going to decline. Councilmember Meltzer? Pleasure working on the nominating board. Having spoken with most, the vast majority of the slate, I'm happy to move approval of these nominations. And Councilmember Briggs? I will second. All right. We have a motion and a second to approve the appointees to the Economic Development Partnership Board. Any further discussion? Let's vote on the board. And the motion carries six to zero. Next we have item 5C, consider approval of resolution for the appointment of one member to the Board of Managers of DENCO Area 911. Good evening, Mayor Pro Tem and Council. I'm Rachel Wood, Assistant to the City Manager. And the purpose of this item is simply to make your formal appointment to the DENCO Board of Managers. There are two municipal spots available and each year one of those two spots is up for nomination. This year Jim Carter's term is up for renewal. And on June 5th, the City Council actually nominated Linda Haip man for this seat. We received notice last Friday that Ms. Haipman wished to have her name withdrawn from consideration. So the remaining appointees to this seat are Jim Carter, of course, who would be returning to his seat if selected, Brandon Barth, who is the nominee from the Town of Flower Mound, and David Terry, who was the nominee from the colony. Thank you very much. Any questions for staff? Councilman Husband. I would move that we reappoint Mr. Carter. We have a motion to reappoint Mr. Jim Carter. Council Member Briggs. I'll second. All right. We have a motion and a second. Any discussion on the item? No? Then please vote on the board. And the motion carries 6 to 0. Item 5D. Consider adoption of an ordinance. The City of Denton, a Texas home rule corporation, authorizing the city manager and his designee to enter into a contract to purchase radio system hardware. Good evening, Council, City Manager Melissa Kraft. I'm the Chief Technology Officer. Today we're talking about radios. Just a little background information to keep you up to date. Back in January, February of 2018, we did conduct an assessment. We brought in a consultant to look at our technical review of our radio system that also involved various stakeholder meetings with the users of the radio system and also site assessment in six areas. Based on that assessment, around March, April, May, we did start to develop a scope of work of requirements for what would it take to replace the radio and also some additional stakeholder meetings to discuss what features, benefits, or things we need to consider if we were to replace the radio system. And also structural analysis on the radio towers. You know, one of the things, this being a primary focus for public safety, we did want to look at the tower, have it public safety rated so there was some structural consideration with that aspect. Based on that, we did develop three options. We presented those options back in June of 2018. Option one was to not replace the system and repair as needed. Option two was the request for proposal for a Denton only radio system. And option three was a regional radio system in where the city joins the Denton County regional radio system. Based on direction from council at that time, we went ahead and moved forward with option three. Some of the present issues, just to do a recap, the Motorola SmartNet radio system has reached technological in the life, meaning it's no longer, it's going to be no longer in the support. Motorola did stop manufacturing the systems back in 2011. New parts of components are no longer available. So for us to get any replacement of equipment, we usually either buy it through a used website or a third party, not Motorola. All support ceases after December 2018. And the system lacks redundancy where any failure damage to one tower would definitely limit the system capabilities. As a result of that, we've had a couple of recent failures, though not catastrophic, but we did see an interruption in services in some areas. The Motorola contract does include discounts of over $3 million . Also here today's Motorola, if you have any specific questions on the contract as well, through the HDEC contract, there's additional maintenance discounts of 102,000 for years two and six. This also includes a new Motorola project 25 phase two system. Just to do a recap, some of the components in the system dates back to the early 90s. This will also include replacing a non-public safety analog and portable radios, which is primarily folks in public works in parks. This will also include replacing all the gold elite dispatch console systems with the newer digital console system in both 911 dispatch and DME dispatch as well. Some of the benefits of the new system with the gold will have enhanced system redundancy. This also allows shared costs with Denton County by joining the regional radio system. This minimizes us from having to build two different towers at an estimated $1 million each. This also provides us the ability to communicate with surrounding public safety agencies within the Denton County. It also allows us to provide needed coverage that will address gaps in the city and in the ETJ. Some of those areas, we just do not have extended coverage on there. From a technical aspect, the new radios do possess noise canceling technology, helps enhance some of the voice quality. Also enables us to have affordable encryption for law enforcement use. If there is a need for security during sensitive operations, we would have that capability. Also gives us the ability to use a GPS, which allows real- time monitoring of personnel location. Also doubles the system capacity from 13 TalkPaths to 26. Some of the key points. This will require interlocal agreements with Denton County, City of Louis ville, University of North Texas, and Texas Women University. Due to the complexity of both the project and the interlocal agreements, city manager will authorize staff to at least test and validate the integrations with the Denton County regional radio system. We've had some talks with Denton County as far as where we're coming to as far as how much would the city pay , how much would UNT pay, and how much would TWU pay. I know that was a big questionnaire . Currently, on the Denton County regional radio system, they do not charge smaller cities a fee. Right now, they're only charging, from my understanding, the City of Louis ville, around 150,000, 60,000 estimated a year, and that's part to pay for a full-time employee. We're still working the kinks on that. One of the things is we're looking at a regional radio system. Any time there's any significant upgrades to the system or enhancing a service patch or something of that nature, that would be an entire team working together to make sure those systems get updated. There's going to be a local agreement that would identify when can we use their staff, when can we use our staff. Again, for public safety reasons, we want to make sure we capture that as part of that. Some of the projected cost estimates, the equipment total is $6.9 million. Turnkey implementation services, and I have another slide that outlines the price per unit, a little more detail, but this gives you a high level. It is $1.6 million. There are various system discounts, $1.3 million based on the HDSE contract. There's also pricing incentive and management discount. This was due to the timing of when we procured the radio system. The system total, after all, in seven years, is $5.5 million. The year two through six on the post-warranty maintenance and system upgrades, it does include an incentive of $102,000 for $2.1 million. It's first year is included as a wrap up for the maintenance, and that's years two through six as part of that, with the project total of $7.6 million. I do want to point out on the caption, it had $7.7 million originally. We had included some contingency as part of that, but we went with the actual total contract amount, which matches the ordinance and also the contract at $7.698,901. Here's a little more detail on the price per unit. On the portable radios, these are the handhelds. The quantity is $319. The list price per unit is around $5,000. I will say it's not just the radio. Every time we're taking account on what an actual radio costs, this also includes spare components like chargers. It also includes an additional battery and those additional cabling and components that goes with it too. It's not like $5,000 just for the radio. There's additional components we do include as part of the package for each of the radios, which are those auxiliary kind of components that goes with it too. Same thing for the mobile radios. Quantity, $121. While it does save $5,000, this also includes those additional cabling, additional things that are part of the radio. The dispatch consoles, we have 14 of those. Seven of those are for DME and seven of those are for 911 dispatch and they cost around $65,000 apiece. Our infrastructure totals, $3.3 million. This is what makes all of the radios interoperate and have the ability to talk to each other. That's everything that's happening in the background. In the radio services, which includes the Wave technology, GPS and radio management. The Wave technology is something new that Benton County is actually using. We'll be utilizing their server. This is to help add additional licensing where you could use your mobile phone as a radio as well too. If you were in Florida and you wanted to hop on a Benton radio because it's exciting and you want to hear it, you would have the ability to do that as well too. The turnkey implementation services, again, it's $1.6 million with the post warranty, which are maintenance system and upgrades. The total before incentives, I think that was important to highlight, it's actually $10.8 million. With those Motorola incentives and the HDAC contract, it's $7.6 million. Here's the financial impact on the different funds. If you look on the general government, the base cost with the maintenance, it's around $5 million. If you look at just the utilization of what we use, just public safety alone makes up over 55% of the radio systems. That's a significant cost. The utilities total, around 29% of the radio system is for that. UNT, they're 12, so they have 181 radios and TWU make up 4% of that. Today, we're seeking approval for adoption of an ordinance and awarding a contract for radio system hardware to include products and services and support and maintenance to Motorola solutions. On the project cost estimates for year two through six, on one slide it says $2,166 million. On that one it says $268 million. What is the difference there? If you look on the list price, the list price is without any discounts. This includes the total without any discounts. This includes after the discounts. The 2.2, that's what it would have been without the $106,000 discount. We wanted to show both costs so you can see what the list price versus what we get when it's discounted . On that note, year two through six, the warranty is for two through six. What happens after year six? We would have to come back to council for additional warranty and maintenance and updates. Do you estimate it will be like another $2 million? I'm just curious because for a total of almost $7. 7 million and you think about six more years, where are we going to have to continue to pay for? Absolutely. That's going to be what I would call an ongoing maintenance cost. There are more aspects to, some notes here. As far as some of the maintenance, you have different aspects of that. You have maintenance for software upgrades . We also pay for software upgrades to keep up to date. It also includes some of the security aspects. They'll do security monitoring and securing upgrades. It also includes for them to come on site for any type of repair and warranty. The actual warranty and repairs is only maybe a fourth of that. Recurring is going to be around 400 something K plus anywhere from two to five percent a year increase. That's typically what we've seen with a lot of our technology infrastructure, ongoing maintenance. It's anywhere from two to five percent. You'll see an increase and usually 20 percent of what the product price is. No manly won't go away. One last question, but this is mostly for the city manager. This item is something we have been going over in our budget. I guess since we already approved the COs, I think in a previous meeting, I'm just curious about the timing. If we approve this item, there's nothing that can, if we approve it, can ruin it if the budget gets changed. We're technically in the waiting period for the COs, the 30 day waiting period. The funding plan would be to utilize the COs to acquire this. Should that change for any reason, we would have to come up with an alternative financial arrangement. This is one of those issues where we really don't have a choice and we'd need to move forward and come up with an alternative financing plan if it came to that. Once the COs are issued, they would be used to fund this program. Thank you. Council Member Armator. I want to say I consider this an investment in public safety and communication and really getting with the 21st century and our first response and communication can really be the difference between life and death and can really maximize the effectiveness of every department that uses this, these forms of communication. I'm totally supportive of this. I was just wondering if there were requests for proposals done or does Motorola, have they really cornered the market on this particular technology or is it because the other city, the Houston-G allison area council of governments has already chosen this? Is that why we're kind of locked in to Motorola? It's a combination of that through the Houston Government Council, HGAC, I'll use the acronym, that's been pre-bid, that's been kind of gone through that process as well. Also to join the Denton Regional Radio System, there are certain components from my understanding. Motorola is here as well too to clarify that if you have any questions that in order for us to integrate and take advantage of the core and utilize the same system as the city of Louisville, it all has to have kind of the same standard build mesh and we have to be on a certain version. Where's Motorola? Is that correct? Okay. Thank you. Thanks. That makes sense. If I recall correctly from one of the presentations, these are more software-based or the previous were more hardware-based, is that correct? Yes, sir. This is really modernizing. It's more IT-ish where you have switches, you have firewalls, it's connected. You can backhaul through the Internet, you can do Wi-Fi, you can do all kinds of interesting stuff. It definitely puts the different threat exposure. That's why we are paying for maintenance on cybersecurity and constant updates to make sure it stays standard and hardened. Yes, sir. Any other questions for staff? I do have one blue card to speak on this item. Mr. Willie Husspeth. Mr. Husspeth is declining. Council Member Armator . I move to adopt. Okay. Council Member Briggs. I will second. We have a motion and a second to consider adoption of an ordinance authorizing the city manager, does he need to enter into a contract for the purchase of the Motorola Solutions radio system for 7.698901. Any further discussion? Let's vote on the board. And the motion carries 6 to 0. Support this is a big project. Thank you. We'll move on to agenda item 5E, consider nominations and appointments to the city boards and commissions. Council, tonight we have three separate considerations for boards and commissions. And I'll take each one of them separately and then you can vote on them separately and we'll go through those nominations. So for your regular boards and commissions on the health and building standards commission, we have an opening for Mayor Pro Tem Ryan and I know he's told me he's working on getting a nomination for that. But there's also an alternate position available and I'm just seeing if anyone might have a nomination for the alternate position. Okay. Any nomination? I will make comment that that board is supposed to have an architect, a plumber and an electrician and has none right now. That's why it's taking me a little extra time is to try to make sure we fill in one of those requirements. If someone has an alternate that fits one of those, it'd be great. Okay. And then Mayor Watts, who's absent, has an HLC nomination on the library board, Mayor Pro Tem? Not right now. Not yet. Okay. Traffic Safety Commission Councilmember Hudspeth has nominated Daniel Krutka? I'm not real sure how to pronounce his last name. And then on the zoning board of adjustment, we have a vacancy for alternate two position. Anyone have a nomination for that? Okay. Well, you're able to vote on those nominations if you so desire and I'll take those at this time. Okay. Councilmember Hudspeth? I move that we accept the nomination for Daniel and I do believe it's Krutka. I could be absolutely wrong as well to the Traffic Safety Commission. Councilmember Meltzer? It's Krutka. It's not that hard. Second. All right. Councilmember Briggs? Are we going to do all of them individually? We're going to take it as three segments. We'll do our standard boards and then we'll do City Hall West and then we'll do Oak Creek and Gateway. Okay. Three separate votes. Thanks. We have a motion and a second for the Councilmember Hudsp eth's nominee for the Traffic Safety Commission. Any further discussion? And let's vote on the board. And the motion carries six to zero. Okay. Next up for consideration is your City Hall West Ste ering Committee. Councilmember Briggs has nominated John Honey and she also has nominated Georgina Ngozi. Mayor Pro Tem Ryan has a nomination as does Mayor Watts. Not at this time . No. Okay. So pending clarification of their qualifications, you may vote on them if you so wish. Okay. Councilmember Hudspeth? I move that we approve Councilmember Briggs two appointments to the City Hall West Steering Committee. All right. Councilmember Amator? And I second that motion. All right. We have a motion and a second for the nominees for the City Hall West Steering Committee. Any further discussion? Thanks. Vote on the board. And the motion carries six to zero. And lastly, Council, we have the Oak Gateway Area Plan Ste ering Committee. Mayor Watts has a nomination. Councilmember Briggs has nominated Carrie Carruthers in the resident position. Councilmember Hudspeth has a nomination. Staff is recommending Gabriel Tilly, who is the director of the UNT Student Government Association replacing Ms. Willis. Councilmember Meltzer has two nominations if he wishes to nominate someone. I'd just like to explain a little bit to the public what Oak Gateway Area Plan Steering Committee is and what I'm looking for because I'm actively looking for some nominees. This is a citizen committee that's helping to form a vision for how development should occur in the areas around UNT. So north of UNT, west of UNT, the area commonly called cement city, also kind of southeast of UNT. And we've got lots of representation on that committee, which is about halfway done with our work. We've got lots of representation from that area north of UNT, but not so much, in fact not at all, from cement city and that area southeast of UNT. And I'm researching and recruiting and contact me if you know someone who might be interested in serving and committed to showing up. It's very important when you volunteer to be on these committees and you get nominated that you actually show up because it's a quorum issue. They can't actually meet and vote unless enough people show up. So that's my little speech and I'm hoping I'll hear from someone while I'm researching independently as well. Councilmember Armitage? Two things. One, I just want to say to Jennifer, I'm working on my, I asked a couple people and just waiting to hear back from them. And then I had a question for staff about this item. It says here, it's staff's recommendation that the city council should include members who represent the development community in order to bring their perspective and expertise to the committee meetings. And I was wondering if staff could explain that and I'll say, you know, my state, my kind of concern about this, that, you know, this is a citizens committee and that if a developer was, happened to live in this area, then I wouldn't have a problem with them being on it. And I definitely don't have a problem with developers weighing in. But I don't, I don't see why we need developers to actually be voting members of this committee. So maybe you can convince me otherwise. Sure. Councilman Ar mitage. The purpose of the committee, as mentioned earlier, is to try to get as a broad perspective as much as possible so that as many people that provide information that the plan itself will be a little bit more comprehensive. And so development community can mean property owner that owns multifamily or residential development, someone that may look at, has a vacant property that's willing to develop, but also any development developer that has information on the needs for the area, the technical requirements. So those are the things that we were looking for as far as a steering committee member. Thanks. I'm still not personally convinced, but good job explaining that. Thank you. I think just to further a little bit of Ron's comments, one of the, I think frustrations that we've seen with the committee is not having enough property owners in the southern part of that area. We've got lots of property owners that are very interested in the northern part of that district and the southern part of the district. We'd like to see a little bit more participation from the property owners. It's an area that's transitioning right now and we just haven't had a lot of representation from that part. I guess we refer to them internally as kind of areas two and three, but that's really I think what we're trying to encourage. Absolutely, and I might piggyback one more time on another component to that. It's Scott McDonald, Director of Development Services. The importance of having the development community representative may be that of a builder or a developer. There's an awful lot of redevelopment opportunities, and especially in areas two and three. So when we look at redevelopment, we'd like to have creative solutions for that infill development and redevelopment, and certainly not to take away from the citizens that reside there, but we're talking about one vote or two votes of a committee of 24. So we'd just like to have that balanced perspective and the diversity to interject ideas and concepts so we can make sure that we have a committee that's useful and fruitful. Thank you. Council Member Briggs. Just a statement because the reason this was brought to us originally is that the group was having trouble making quorum, and as of now there's still five vacant positions, so I just encourage my fellow council members to get those filled as soon as possible, and if for some reason there are issues doing that, then maybe we need to revisit the item and discuss quorum again. I just kind of want to reiterate that and put that back out there. Any other questions for staff? I do apologize for this. I wasn't thinking in terms of splitting this into three votes. I do have a blue card for Mr. Willie Houspeth. Did you want to come down and speak on this? Mayor Procham, while he's coming up to the podium, I did want to also mention that staff was recommending that Teresa Rogers be nominated. She works at UNT. She's the senior facilities planner, and staff was recommending that she fill one of the positions also. Mr. Houspeth, did you want to speak on this? Yes, I'm Willie Houspeth. I live at 623 Newton. The information I'd like to interject in your thinking about getting developers to be on this committee, which I'm a member of, the fear is and the danger would be for developers to make recommendations that will favor what they're hoping to do there. What has happened in the past and what they would like to do is just, well, do things that accommodate saving money, but not maybe improving the area. Saving and earning money, but not improving the area. This is the problem that you have when you have investors coming in or developers as opposed to people who own the property. Now, I know that's the problem. The owners are not on the property. People who live in the area and own the property. The thinking is a lot different than what you get when you're just a developer, as I said earlier. Your thought is to make money and to spend as least amount as you possibly have to. On the committee, when they speak and I've heard them, their whole thinking is how few restaurants, for example, do we have to put in their apartments? Most of all, the discussion from them is apartments. It's not single family. I'm not faulting them for that. That's what they're investing for. My thought and others like me is thinking, how do we develop that whole area into where it becomes something that's good for the residents as well as the investors? Well, I don't think putting investors in that area on that committee anyway for that whatever reason they're planning to be there is going to be a good idea because it's probably going to center around saving and making money and nothing else. Thank you, Mr. Houspeth. Thank you. I move approval of the three individuals put forth for the Oak Gateway Area Plan Steering Committee. All right. Council Member Armator. I second that motion. Okay. I do have a little further discussion. This is probably a question for legal in that I had stated last week out of principle, I have an issue with voting for someone who is on a November ballot to be on a board, somebody who's already listed on a ballot. Is there a way that this vote could be split or is this just simply a slate vote only? The way the motion has been brought forward is as a slate. We would vote as a slate unless there's an amendment, a secondary amendment made to the primary motion. Council Member Houspeth. Thank you. I have an inquiry for legal then. Was that research? I don't know how to phrase that, but what was the results of that conversation and that thought? Was that explored? I can tell you, I personally went back and looked and I know that this person is a candidate for the Justice of Peace position here in Denton County. I don't remember which precinct, but they are actively campaigning for that. As far as is there anything in the city code, the charter, rules of procedure that actually address the situation? No. It may have been just a custom or longstanding practice, but is there anything in writing that physically prohibits this ? The answer is no. Council Member Briggs. Yes. I left my nomination for that reason. It's not a written rule. It's not in anything that we have. I'm not going to remove a nomination unless there is a legitimate reason and a written rule. I understand that you feel uncomfortable with it, but if it's something that just has been done, we 're going to keep doing it because it's just that way. I feel uncomfortable with that. If there are four people who are uncomfortable with it and would like to change the rule and make it a written rule, then I am open to have that discussion at another time. So noted. Any further discussion? In that case, let's vote on the board. The motion carries five to one. Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem. We have one last board. It's the Downtown Denton TIF Reinvestment Zone Number One Board. There are three nominations that any council member is open for a nomination and Council Member Meltzer has nominated Ken Gold. Stand if there are any other nominations or vote. Yes, ma'am. I would like to nominate, I just heard from the beginning of the meeting, I would like to nominate Lillian Williams and Stephanie Davis. They're both downtown business owners. They will get their applications in shortly. Stephanie Davis? Yes. Thank you. Lillian Williams and Stephanie Davis. So pending their affirmation that they meet the qualifications, you'll be able to vote on those nominations this evening. Council Member Hussbett. Thank you. In the handout we were provided, Ben Easley is asked to be or expressed an interest in serving another term and so I would like to put him forward. I don't know what that process is. I don't know if those individuals have turned in an application. I don't know if that, the two that Council Member Armatraz has put forward, but I'm going to ask that Ben be considered to be reappointed. Council Member Meltzer. I'm just requesting guidance on Position One where we're given a note that says this member should be a council member. How strong is this should? Is it just a suggestion or this member is supposed to be a council member? I think Caroline is not here, but that position is probably reserved for a council member. I'm pulling up the EIS on that. It's not attached. My recommendation, given that there's been multiple nominations, is that this section of the item be postponed for next week to get the straight down and to answer the question you have regarding the qualifications of the individuals on this committee, on this actual board so that you can have that in front of you and you can have all the information answered and feel confident in whatever decision you make. Did you have a follow up or is it a separate question? I'll move, but I know there are others who wish to speak, so I'm going to wait my turn. Council Member Armatraz. I understand that we've tabled this for another time, but I would be fine only making one of those recommendations instead of the two since I didn't quite know the meaning of the should. The should was a must or a should, but I'm fine having a council person on that committee. That makes sense. I could just change that to Lily and Williams. I wouldn't want Council Member to withdraw a nomination because of confusion on all of our parts, so I move that we table this item until next time so that we have clear direction. If you're making a motion. We get that? So it's a motion to postpone until a date certain. Oh yeah, not table, postpone. Until a date certain. If only we had recently been instructed on parliamentary procedure. Yes, I move that we postpone this item until a date certain , which would be next Tuesday. Okay. And Council Member Briggs. I'll second that. All right. We have a motion and a second to postpone until a date certain of August 28th on this item. Any further discussion? Let's vote on the board. And the motion carries six to zero. That concludes our items for individual consideration. We 'll now move into our public hearing section. The first item up is hold a public hearing. Consider adoption of an ordinance regarding a detailed plan for Plan Development 176, PD 176, regarding an auto laundry facility on 2.13 acres. You can hand it right down there, Joe. Good evening. I'm Haley Zagorski with the Planning Department. So the item before you is a Plan Development Amendment for the cleaning green car wash. This request is to hold a public hearing and consider adoption of an ordinance for a detailed plan for a site within PD 176. The site is outlined here in yellow on the map. It 's just over two acres, located on the west side of the FM 2499, just north of Hickory Creek Road. So the current zoning on the property, as I mentioned, is a Plan Development, PD 176. We don't have PDs in our current code, but these are a zoning option that was available under our previous code. So we still have several of them that are leftover with pieces to be filled. This PD in particular was approved on October 5th of 1999. It provided a maximum of 628 residential units and allocated two sites for commercial development. A total of 16 acres were designated for commercial. PDs require kind of a two-step process, the first of those being a concept plan that decides what uses can go where within the property. That particular piece of this was approved in 1999 when the PD was adopted in October. So that leaves us with one more box to check, and that is the second step for a detailed plan, which describes how a particular piece of the property will be developed, the details of how the site will be laid out, and the exact use that will go there. So tonight's consideration is to look at the site design, landscaping, and building elevations that are proposed for this particular site. So as I mentioned, the concept plan was approved in 1999. It did designate two areas that are shown here in red called Tracks 1 and 3 for commercial development. Everything in Track 2 was left as residential and has been developed. The commercial zoning district permitted, or I'm sorry, the PD allowed for anything on these commercial tracks that was permitted within the commercial zoning district of the 1991 code. That was a wide variety of uses. One of those was an auto laundry. So it's important to note that the use proposed here is approved, or is one of the permitted uses within the PD that was approved in the original adoption of this in '99. Other permitted uses that could go on the commercial tracks is a wide variety of things, everything from a hospital to retail and restaurant uses. And it is also important to note that a detailed plan was approved for an auto laundry within this PD on the northern track, Track 1, back in 2013. So diving into some of the details of this, you can see here the proposed site plan. So approximately 4,500 square feet of building is outlined in yellow on the map. They have provided, that should be five parking spaces. Instead of six, they're shown in red. The blue areas show where they would propose vacuum stalls. Twenty of these on the south side are intended for immediate development. If this is approved, the five on the west end would be for future development. And you can see here one driveway connection for this site would be shared with the remainder of the commercial development to the north. It's also important to note that they are exceeding all of the required setbacks within the PD. So it required 20 to 25 feet of setback on any given side. They've accommodated well over that with this proposed plan. Looking at the landsca ping for the site, the PD called for the landscaping to meet whatever code was in place at the time of adoption, which was our 1998 landscape code. So that was a little bit different than what we have now. It called for a certain number of trees and shrubs based on the area of the property. So they have met those requirements. They've provided 39% overall landscaping, 20% is what's required. The PD specifically calls for a six foot wall where the use abuts residential. So this particular plan shows that six foot wall. PNZ's recommendation was that they increase that to eight feet and the applicant indicated at the meeting that he was amenable to that. They're also intending to preserve all of the existing trees or the majority of them along that are in the buffer area, as well as planting eight new trees in that area to enhance the landscaping. Looking at the other piece to a detailed plan, which is the building elevations, you can see the proposed building in color here as well as the schematics for it. So the proposal is a combination of fiber cement, glass and aluminum panels. The PD permits a variety of materials, glass, stone, stucco, wood or similar materials. The tower on the building that you see here is approximately 30 feet tall. The PD permitted three stories, so it's within that range. Just a look at the other sides of the building. So there are four criteria for approval of a detailed plan that are outlined in the 91 code. The first of those is that the plan comply with the general concept plan approved for the property. So again, looking back at that concept plan we saw earlier, this was one of those commercially designated areas. So the auto laundry use falls within the range of commercial uses that were permitted on this site. The second criteria is that the plan provide for compatible arrangement of buildings and uses that don't adversely affect the neighboring properties. Through our analysis, we found that this development is in line with what you would typically see along a highway, such as 2499. They are proposing to maintain, as I mentioned, the existing tree line on the south side of the property to provide a buffer there, as well as planting new trees and providing that required wall. On the west side of the property, they do have approximately 175 feet of separation between their property line and the nearest residence that provides some separation there. We found that the arrangement of buildings is exceeding the setbacks that are required within the PD. We did have some concerns in that the PD doesn't provide criteria for site lighting and signage, so we felt it would be appropriate to require them follow the current code requirements for this to ensure no nuisances are created with lighting or signs on the site. The third criteria is the adequate and safe circulation of traffic. The detail plan meets this criteria. It does provide that one shared driveway off of 2499, and there is or has been a text up permit approved for a turn lane onto the site into that driveway that's currently applied for an extension on that. The fourth and final criteria is substantial compliance with landscaping, sign, subdivision, and other regulations of the city. We found that the site, as proposed and with the conditions that you'll see, would meet these regulations. Notification was sent about this request. You can see here on the map in red a number of opposition statements were received, both in writing and at the Planning and Z oning Commission meeting. Five percent of the land area within 200 feet has expressed opposition. Similarly, three favorable responses were received in writing and at P&Z. Those actually all came from representatives of the property ownership that this tract was originally a part of, so you can see that here in green. A neighborhood meeting was not held about this case. With that, P&Z has recommended approval of this with a four-zero vote with the following conditions. The first two were staff's original recommended conditions, that being no exterior lighting face a single family use or if such lighting is proposed, it be screened from the view of adjoining residential properties. To accomplish that, a photometric plan should be provided with the building permit to demonstrate compliance with our current DDC requirements for lighting. The second condition would be due to the proximity of this to single family residences, the majority of the PD being residential and the lack of signed regulations within this PD that the project comply with our current code of ordinance assigned requirements for non-residential districts with the following additional limitation being that no illuminated wall signs face an adjoining single family use. P&Z's third recommended condition was the increasing the height of that masonry screening wall from six feet to eight feet. In further analyzing the feedback that was received at P&Z from the neighbors who had many concerns regarding noise, glare, potential increases in crime and safety issues in the neighborhood, staff did feel that two additional conditions could help mitigate some of those concerns. That being the limitation of the hours of operation from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. daily, which is the general operating time that the applicant indicated they would have at the P&Z meeting. The second be that the centralized vacuum motors be located interior to the structure and soundproof to limit noise affecting adjacent properties . That was also something that the applicant indicated was part of their design, but we felt it best to memorialize that in the ordinance. With that, I'd be happy to answer any questions. All right. Thank you very much. I'm going to go ahead and open the public hearing and then we've got questions from staff from Councilmember Huss buss. Thank you. So, Haley, can you walk first, is there a copy of what we sent out notification wise and understanding that it can be there by right, it's been planned since '99 round numbers. I'm curious, is the standard notification we sent out like if it's a SUP change or? That's correct. It was the standard city notice that included the map of the property location and a copy of the caption that you see here on the agenda and a link to the city's website and contact information. Can someone email that to me? I want to take a look at that before I complain about it, but my concern is that it's not required. I understand giving notice, but if it's misleading information, that is problematic just because it sets a trend in my concern that we're now, because we're trying to get back to where we're taking the ambiguity out of what we do and the ordinance says do this so that's what we're doing. So if we're trending that way to then deter from that and say, hey, notification is a good thing, I'm going to send notification, where does that stop? That gets us back to where we're trying to get away from in my mind, sight unseen. So I'll reserve that critique until I see the notice, but that's where I'm headed just as a heads up. Thank you. I'd be happy to send you a copy of that. I think the Council Member Hutz's point that my understanding is that the property owner voluntarily sent the notice out, is that right? The notices are prepared and sent out by the city staff. The property owner did post the required signs on the property. Okay, thanks. Council Member Amptow? Thank you. So I appreciate the work that staff has done to try to address some of the community's concerns regarding the light pollution and some of the noise pollution. I can't support this project because of what I have heard from the 14 opposed and the concerns of this one resident, which I would just like to read, their concerns, which to me these concerns do not seem to have been all addressed . This person writes, I'm opposed to the car wash that's being proposed to be built on 2499 at Wheeler Ridge. Our community had several members who showed up also opposed to the car wash. I share all their concerns of increased traffic, noise, crime and the nuisance. Since we've moved in, we've seen a steady increase in traffic on our street, which is Green Ivy, increased petty crime and noise. We live on Green Ivy and I can tell you that folks cut through our street to get away from the construction on Teasley. And you know about all of the construction and traffic on Teasley and Green Ivy is kind of a loop, I mean a kind of a see off, a hook off of Teasley. We currently have an increased level of crime already in petty theft. They talk about rocks being thrown at cars, car burglaries. So I see how, and like I said, I generally appreciate the effort, but just taking care of the vacuum motor sound that doesn't eliminate noise from traffic up through 9pm and also just the issue of traffic in general in that area where you've got a blocked up Teasley for the foreseeable future. So anyway, so for that reason, I'm going to be voting no on this in support of the residents who have opposed it in that area. Thanks. Council Member H ussbett. Thank you. Can you go to your, is it your first line? This one or? Go forward one more, I'm sorry. I mean, this one? Yes. So, let me make sure I understand this right . The first PDs required, the first two boxes are checked. Tonight we're looking at the detail plan. Correct. Tonight's consideration says site design, which is what the site is planning to be, landscape and elevations, what the building's going to look like. In parentheses, not the use. Correct. The use is already permitted within the PD by right. Okay. So again , I just, Mr. Mayor Pro Tem, I looked in the city and I absolutely get it. There's not one that I can find similar situation in the city where auto laundry is next to a resident. I mean, that I see proximity. I could be absolutely wrong, but I looked in an effort to find it. But I'm not willing to at this dais start writing our own rules because where does that end? Right? The rules dictate what we're to do in this situation, what we can consider. And I'm happy with staffs working within those parameters to add extra layers and that sort of thing because they're not listed. And everything that was identified was because it was not listed. But to go in and rewrite what our call is, is very concerning for me. Especially if it's laid out as succinctly as can be. Since 1999, not the use is to be considered for this body to go on, on the record and say we're going to ignore our call at a preference. Where does that end? Is my concern. Thank you. >> I fully respect what we just heard. Nevertheless, I note that in the backup that was provided to us, you included the future land use map. It's not part of the presentation. I assumed it was provided because it was meant to weigh on our decision. And I found it a little perplex ing that this was zoned and may not affect anything we do, but just to be open about it , I found it a little perplexing that this was zoned commercial if you look at the future land use map. It shows nothing like this in that area. I wonder if you have any comment you can provide and how do you feel we should respond to the inclusion of the future land use map in our determination? >> Certainly. It adds value to the conversation to look at the future land use map, but it is not one of the criteria for approval of a detailed plan. The future land use designation for the property is low density residential. This entire part of Denton is designated that way. It's primarily because the future land use map was designed at a very high level. Even though this PD had these in this case an approximately four-acre tract of land that was permitted to be commercial and designated for commercial development that wasn't captured, when the future land use map was adopted at the very high level view of this area, it didn't drill down into specific properties when assigning those designations. I think it adds merit to the conversation. The facts as we saw them is that the commercial uses are permitted. At the time the PD was adopted, they knew of 2499 being a planned roadway through there, a major thoroughfare to connecting us to DFW airport. Commercial uses were seen as appropriate on that roadway at that time. >> Any other questions for staff? I do have several cards to speak on this item. This is a public hearing. After we get through the cards, we'll open it up for anyone else who wishes to speak. The first card I have is from the applicant, Josh Bosch. Is that correct? Pretty close. I believe as the applicant you get ten minutes. State your name and address and your time will begin. >> My name is Joshua Bosch. I'm the business owner of Clean and Green Car Wash and the land owner of this parcel as well. My address is 12821 Sar atoga Downs Court in Fort Worth. Thank you all for hearing this amendment tonight. I appreciate your time. Just give you a couple points of who we are, what we need to design the business and really what we're on the topic of approving tonight. Our business, the Clean and Green Car Wash, is actually in Track 1 up there in the other side of the subdivision. That is our car wash. So we're very familiar with the requirements of the PD. It's our first car wash. It's solely owned by my wife and I. We don't have investors. This is a locally owned, 100% family owned business. My wife and I, we have two boys. They're six years old and four years old. It was our first wash. We cleared out our bank accounts, our retirement funds, our gifts from family members. We made it work. We've got a huge commitment to customer satisfaction. You can research us anywhere online. We've got the highest car wash ratings in the metro area. We feel very proud of that. We've got a commitment to customer service. When you call our phone number, my wife and I answer. How many businesses today don't answer their phone? We really want to be a good steward to our neighbors and our community as well. We're very supportive of Geyer High School. Obviously, they 're one of our very close neighbors. Supportive of band, baseball, volleyball. We've done several fundraisers with Sam Houston Elementary. We've really talked to our customers and our neighbors, even in our existing wash. We've modified a lot of our business operation to fit within their requests and how the business of cleaning cars is offered to the community. Moving on to a little bit about this property, we have contacted multiple sources between industry professionals, Citi. I've worked with Haley a ton of time over the phone. I work my existing wash. I talk to the local residents every day at the wash and have gotten a ton of input. It's an exterior car wash. One of the concerns with, we'll say crime and things going on with additional people in the community was time spent. We're building an exterior car wash. Total time to get your car washed is less than three minutes. If you're going to pull in for a car wash and get out of there, it's going to be less than three minutes. Total time on the property is going to be limited by the amount of time you spend in our free vacuums. If you go on Google, look at our existing wash, you look at other washes of the same type around the metro area, 20 minutes is the very typical time that customers per Google spend on a property like that. Keeping the customers moving will minimize as much of that loitering time as possible. We're going full 21st century. We're having a moving floor, fiberglass conveyor belt, sports cars, duallys, anything can be watched there. Complete commitment to environmental responsibility. All of our waste water will be run through a reclamation system. It'll be reused in the car wash. With that, some of the design criteria of some of the set backs that Haley reviewed, where the building is placed on the property, where our vac uums are at, being housed inside the building, a lot of that came from these conversations. We have absolutely modified our ideal car wash plan to fit within this property and to minimize all of those concerns. I think one of the things we are very proud of is those, there's 50 foot Elm and Oak trees on that property. We're maintaining and preserving every one of them. That is a topic of conversation I'll bring up here in a little bit, because where those trees are is also where that screening wall goes that Haley mentioned. I'd like to have some discussion regarding placement sizes and what just makes the most sense for that topic. That's my opener. Brings us to where we are. Haley said this is the last step in a simple, straightforward process to ensure we're following the guidelines set forth in the PD and the city of Denton code. Your vote verifies we followed those guidelines to your satisfaction. As Haley stated earlier, this is commercial property. A car wash is approved. We have staff approval and the Planning and Zoning Commission has also approved it with a unanimous vote after adding some conditions. That brings me up to some of the conditions. Haley has those on screen. Can we flip through those? Big picture. I 'm going to be very agreeable to the conditions set forth by Planning and Zoning by you tonight. I'm going to bring up a couple of them. I'd like to have some additional discussion on. One of those is number three. That was added by Planning and Zoning there that they would move the masonry screening wall to eight feet from six feet. I do have ... Did you get my pictures on a thumb drive? Haley? I just have a couple quick pictures of ... Okay, beautiful. This is the view from the south of those trees that are there. One of the residents' concerns in our Planning and Zoning meeting was that FM 2499 took down all of their trees. They're talking about viewpoints and they were talking about what are they looking at now. We're not going to remove any of these. However, we have to build a retaining wall right where they lie, right where this row of trees is. That's the guideline set in the PD. Those are the rules. Because these are our adjacent neighbors here to the south. It affects about five homes. It's the backyard of about five homes. I'm just going to click on one other picture. I don't know if it'll let me move over. Here's the view from the north looking at those same trees. I need to build a six foot wall at the base of these trees. This is a condition I'm going to ask you guys to consider removing, amending, agreeing with. Like I said, I will be very agreeable. Planning and Zoning asked me to move the six foot required wall to an eight foot wall. I don't personally agree with an eight foot wall. Just on the front of a landscaping screening to me is a lot better for noise abatement versus a concrete wall. You get echoing, you get amplification, things like that from a wall. When we move to eight feet, it causes two other concerns. Number one, I 'm going to have to trim these trees higher to produce that wall. Number two, I'm going to have to dig my footings deeper which also go into the root structure of these trees . I'm more than willing to do what is required. I just want you to have some open discussion on that topic. I wanted you to see what is exactly here right now. We've got a beautiful screening fence. The residents actually have, and a lot of it was provided by TexDOT, they have a new six foot fence in their backyards. Then there's this row of trees and then I need to build a six foot wall. There's a little bit of redundancy there. Open for discussion there. The other two were recently added. Excuse me here. I'll see if I can ... I guess I went a little fast. My apologies. Hours of operation. Hours of operation is what I answered a question during the planning and zoning meeting about a month ago. Those are my proposed hours. I'd like to be open from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. I'm not sure whether it is typical of commercial properties to be limited by their hours of operation, whether that's standard city policy. But if it is adopted as a condition, we have to come right back here if I want to change my hours. If I want to stay a half hour later open, we've got to come back right here and have another amendment and we're just going to be talking about the hours I can be open. 7 to 9 isn't disagreeable to me, but I would rather have that not in the conditions. Centralized vacuum motor, that's in my plans already. With there, I'm going to leave it with a few comments from Council Member Hudspeth. Like he said, it is moving forward not to write precedent. That's where I'm at with all of these general conditions that we've added above and beyond PD requirements, above and beyond City of Denton municipal code. We have sign ordinances. We have noise ordinances that have already been passed and we're adding additional to this property. I just want to open that type of stuff for discussion. Do they need to be there? Is this a precedent for all of the commercial property that's going to be developed up and down 2499? What I heard in the planning and zoning meeting was the residents' general concern about the traffic and the noise of 2499. To address the noise concerns, I can give you specifics, but the noise produced by 2499 is a huge multiple of anything we'll produce at the car wash. I'm good with where we're at. Thank you for your time. I'm asking for your support to approve our site plan. We'll take any questions you have. We do have one question here. Council Member Br iggs. You mentioned that you own the car wash that's down the street? Correct. It's on Teas ley. That's not too far away. How many cars would you say go through that a day, per day? We average approximately 200 cars a day. 200 in that. Is that within the hours? What are the business hours of the current car wash? The current car wash is not restricted. It is open 24 hours a day. Within the same subdivision and plan development. Thank you . Council Member Melton. Thanks for coming and speaking. Regarding the eight-foot wall, I take it that your true preference would probably be not to do that wall. Of course. Reading between the lines. I wonder if you have creative alternatives as far as placement and material so that it wouldn't cut into the root zone. Do you have room to do something in a different material that's not echoey and that doesn't impinge on the tree? Absolutely . The higher we go, the heavier it gets. That would be my first request, is that we build a six-foot wall. Secondarily, I think when you look at construction material, the PD is very vague and Haley and I have talked about it a bunch. It basically just says masonry. If we can have an alternative material that looks like masonry, if we can use ... If you look at the commercial property, the 7-Eleven, the O'Reilly's, the storage unit in Track 1, there isn't a piece of masonry on any one of those properties. It's all panels that look like brick. If I can use a lightweight plastic panel that looks like brick, I can significantly reduce the footings that would be needed and what I'd have to put below it. I take your point on the weight and the footings, but the objective is noise screening. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I'm not 100% sure maybe Haley can answer that question. It just says screening wall provided, I believe, is what the PD says. Can staff address what the purpose of the wall is? Certainly. The purpose of the wall is to provide screening in between the commercial and residential uses anywhere that they're running. Visual or noise? It does not specify, so I imagine it could have been a combination of both. Let me look and see if I can find the exact wording for you. Section 109 is screening. A six-foot screening wall shall be provided between areas developed for residential uses. The commercial user shall be responsible for construction and maintenance of the six-foot screening wall. The screening wall shall be constructed at the time the commercial property is developed and shall only be required adjacent to the specific commercial property that is being developed. The above-reference six-foot screening wall shall be constructed of stone, brick, or similar materials or any combination thereof. Do we have the flexibility to deviate from that? What are our guidelines? Apparently, it can go higher. Do we have the flexibility to deviate on material? Since it does say similar materials, I would imagine there is some room for flexibility there in what may be similar to brick or masonry. Aaron, I'm not sure if you wanted to provide any feedback on that. Let me give you context, just so we're not playing a game here. If it's a visual screen, I'm sure it was written for a very good reason, but if we had the flexibility and if the applicant had the ability, without taking down the trees, to do an eight-foot cedar fence, say, is that a bad thing according to the code because it's not similar to stone? That's lighter, obviously. Whether it would be considered similar materials is the question before you. Let's say it isn't. I'll concede. It's not similar. It's not like stone, this example. It's cedar. What latitude do we have? Given these design regulations were actually part of the PD ordinance itself and the approved concept plan ordinance, if they appeared in the earlier documents, in order to get there, you would have to amend the earlier documents to change the requirements. Okay, so we don't have that latitude. Right. I will throw out there, there may be some creative alternatives that we've seen on other sites for maybe not having a solid wall, maybe breaking it up into sections so it could work in and around the trees. There may be some other alternatives there that could be a little more creative to work with the trees, perhaps. To state the obvious, I too am interested in preserving the trees. If there are creative alternatives that planning would be open to, I'd sure be interested in hearing them. Council Member Omotow. Thanks. I've already made it clear that I don't support the project because of the residents' objection, residents plural. That said, it makes sense to me if the screening wall, as far as the wall is concerned to you, and if this does end up passing in spite of my voting against it, that I don't see why we would require the wall to be made of a material that would cause damage to the tree canopy and where the screening ... If it's true that it does nothing to abate noise, I'm not an expert. I'm looking at staff in that area, but I would definitely ... To me, that just seems reasonable to look for a creative solution around that. I also wanted to add that clearly this business is very green-minded with the acclimation of water and the preservation of the trees. I really appreciate that. I know that there's a mindset that says, "Well, you should vote yes to these guys because they're good players, good environmental stewards, and if we vote no to them, then the next person who could come in could be somebody who's just going to tear down all the trees, et cetera." While I understand that, that kind of argument, I would like to see us in the future, if this does get voted down, to rezone this area to be more in accordance with the future land use map. Just pointing to what Council Member Meltzer was saying about the discrepancy. I just wanted to point that out as a possibility for the future, depending on the outcome of this vote. Even if this ends up passing, I would imagine that this still could be rezoned to be more in accordance with how the neighborhood conceives of the area and this future land use. That's all. Thank you. I just want to remind fellow Council Members, we have several cards to get through. At this point, if you've got questions for the applicant, let's hold off on staff until we get through the public hearing portion of it if we could. Council Member Meltzer, you? Just because we're just on the same point. I'm eager to hear the public comment as well. Mr. City Attorney, would the concept of variance be applicable in the area of the retaining wall as a way to get around this conflict of objectives? Typically, the city has two types of variance processes. The first one is the true variance, which is the setback relaxation, height relaxation, and that goes to ZBA. We also have another concept of what's called hardship variance, which usually apply to the development regulations that the city has, which would include the site design. Those are by the DDC authorized to be granted by PNC, not the City Council. Typically, City Councils don't grant variances in the state of Texas. If we wanted to pursue that, would there be some process that would involve delay to go back to PNC? Is that conceptually available? Conceptually, in all the cases outside the PD ordinance context, that's what is done. This one, because it involves the PD ordinance, it's very likely the outcome would be that same. My answer would be the same, unless there's something in the PD ordinance that actually says something differently. I don't have the luxury of the PD ordinance and all the various amendments that have been created and adopted to be able to answer that question with 100% certainty, but I suspect it's probably going to be still within PNC purview. That's yes? It could go back to PNC? About 80% certain, yes . That might get you what would be a more common-sensical solution, that we might both agree would be common-sensical solution, but would take time. You want a discussion? There's some discussion. Thank you. I don't see any more questions at this time, so thank you very much. The next card I have is from Tom Bryant. Hi, good evening. My name is Tom Bryant. I live on Hailing Way. It's just on the east side of where he wants to put his business. Can I ask you to put up the floor plan that shows where the business is in the neighborhood, please? The site plan or which one? That one would be good. That's good. You got the big one? That's the one before that, right there. I just want to set some of the facts straight. I live across the street from where this building is supposed to be. You can't see my finger, but where that point is on the black portion where his property is, Pine Hills. This building and structure is elevated above where our property is by 12 feet. We currently have an eight-foot sound barrier, they call it, textile. It's not soundproof. It's a sound deterrent. That doesn't mean turn up the volume, and that will turn up the volume. The other thing is, what about our property rights and values? What about the quality of our neighborhoods where this is going to go? I agree with the gentleman there. I don't know of any city, Denton or otherwise, that has a car wash 20 feet behind somebody's privacy fence of the residence who wants to live there. Anybody who wants to live with a car wash in the backyard, a three-story car wash, I'll be glad to hear an argument. At the zoning commission, it was unanimous. Everyone there was against it, other than the owner. The other people that didn't oppose it lived two miles away on Post Oak. The immediate residence, give or take, where that P is, or it's on the side streets, within a quarter-mile radius are all residents. These aren't two or three people begrudging the business. We're not against the car wash business. We're against the business in our neighborhood. It's not appropriate. We don't want it there. I'm being nice about it. He can meet the zoning requirements, but what about the rights of the property owners and their values and future development there? He's talking about the walls to the left side of this dark area are residents. That isn't miles away. That's hundreds of feet surrounding that proximity of that square are dozens of homeowners that are below the elevation where this building is going to be located, which are below the sound barriers. From my yard, I'm about six feet below the current road level. His building is six feet above the current road level, and he's going to add three stories to it. The noise is going to resonate throughout at least a good quarter mile in every direction. He said he has a quiet car wash. What's a quiet car wash? Is that a quiet train zone when there's no trains coming? I don't know. I got to live there, and you should have known the zoning rights. Ethically speaking, no one told us when we purchased our home in '02 that, by the way, in 15 years you're going to have a six-lane highway with a car wash across the street. Do you mind? We never would have bought, and I don't think the majority of the people that have bought the property in this post Oakmont area were aware of that. To be honest with you, they weren't told it. We didn't ask the right question . Shame on us. This gentleman had the right to come to the prior to the zoning meeting for an open forum with the neighbors that he communicates with. We didn't know anything about this car wash. He told us, "Sign up future site of car wash coming soon." Now we 've got a letter from the fortunately to attend the zoning commission that apparently he meets all the requirements other than property value and quality of life for the neighbors that he hopes to be his customers. The way to get customers is make that a public community park, put your logo on the bench seats, and move your car wash to another appropriate location. I'm just trying to put it in perspective of the residents that live there don't want it. We're not against his business or livelihood. It's where it's located. It sounds anybody here that owns property where they want this in their backyard, that will affect thousands of homeowners , hundreds at least. We do have a couple of questions for you, sir. Councilman H ussman. Thank you. Give me your name again. I'm sorry. I missed it. Tom Brandt. Thank you, Tom. I'll represent to you that I get it. I absolutely am 100% with you, but I would try to sell you on the fact that if we don't hold to our word here, then how are you going to trust us in the future? This was planned in 1999. I know that doesn't make it any easier . I'll tell you, I absolutely started out no, but I'm absolutely sworn in to enforce the ordinances of our city. To go rogue on these ordinances does no one any good because now I'm unpredictable and just it's not the town of Girard, although I think that would be a wonderful place to live. That's not where we are today. That's my struggle. I just want you to understand that I did the research. I looked on purpose. I started out no, and I'm absolutely grateful that you received the notice. I am absolutely not excited about the wording, but I'll tell you, I just want to be predictable. If I tell you we're going to do something, I'm going to do it, and I'm not going to have you guess. I think your points are very valid. I would solicit any information that you want to give me that says, "Hey, it'll make it more palatable if," but I can't ignore what we're called to do. That to me is the worst thing we could do from here is start rewriting our own rules with no predict ability. My commitment to you and my ask is if something hits you, write it down. If there's something now that you say it would be more palatable if, but I'm not going to break a rule that was established in 1999, but I absolutely, 100 percent understand where you 're coming from. I absolutely looked at every car. I went into Google Maps, typed in car washes, looked at every pinpoint, and tried to find one that close to a neighborhood, and I couldn't find it. I'm not telling you you're wrong. I'm just telling you we have a duty to do here, and I can't rewrite the ordinances tonight. I apologize in advance, but I absolutely, if there's something that you think makes that palatable or something we've missed or some suggestion, I absolutely ask you to share that with me so that we can try to get that considered. Okay. Well, I've been told at the last meetings, demographics change. You should have predicted this happening. That's my argument, demographics change. We 're an established neighborhood. Sure. Prior to his accepting that, yeah, I still want to put a car wash there. Demographics have changed. People live there. Hundreds and thousands of people live there now. We're not against any other businesses. Put a library there. Put a professional office there. It's specific, not conforming to the neighborhood. They have rights to approve or disapprove of what's going to ruin their properties and quality of life. That's where this is, making amends. We can wait. Yes. No, if I may. Quickly, please. Yes, sir. Briefly. The same ask you're asking us to enforce the rules, and I'm telling you, if we don't enforce this rule, how do you trust us to enforce future rules for you? If you put the shoe on the other foot, that's what I'm saying. I've got to be truthful and honest here so that I can be truthful and honest to you in the future. That's all I'm saying. I get it. I understand your point. I feel your frustration. I'm 100% with you. I'm counting on responsibility and ethics and common sense. Sure. That's asking too much. With all due respect. We want to live there. I don't want to have to move. We will have to move. It's going to be not worth living there. The quality will not be there . He's a couple blocks from a high school. We're going to get kids lording at the car wash. We're going to get litter. Everything that comes with it. It's not like this is business. Put it where it's more appropriately suited. If you can't enforce that and can't change that, then something is wrong with the system. Councilmember Armitage. Thank you. Thank you for your comments. Thank you for coming out here. I consider it my job to represent the public and residents. I don't have a problem with opposing this. I feel like it is up to the city attorney and our staff to decide whether or not we're walking on territory of possibly violating an ordinance. I 'm not a lawyer and I leave it to those experts to tell me. I will do whatever I can to try to help quality of life for our residents. I wanted to thank you for raising the issue of elevation. To ask if you think it would have been helpful if that information about elevation could have been included for us in these plans. Not in these homes surrounding this black area in the back have sound barriers. Ours was furnished by Tex. It's about two feet above the noise zone of the road. It's six feet below his. His building is going to be my view out of our backyard over our privacy wall. It's not a sound wall anymore. It's an elaborate privacy wall. Anyway, none of these homes around the back have a commercialized sound barrier other than the privacy fences that you can see over. If you stand on his property line where he took that picture, you can see the backyards of a quarter mile around you of everybody's house. They're above everyone's property fence line. That's the fact. Thank you for explaining that. I would ask of staff and I realize this is harder than it sounds. This might be up to our technology and maps division, but it would be nice in future to whenever possible to have a 3D images of plans and to have information about elevations. When we 're looking at- It doesn't matter right now. I'm so sorry. In your case, I 'm sorry. We have one more. Anyway, I completely hear you. I'm thinking about in the future too so that we can best do our due diligence. I'm grateful to you for coming and telling us this because otherwise we're talking about a flat world and we don't live in a flat world with our neighborhoods. He's on top of the hill for everyone's view whether they want it or not. Thank you and I'm sorry. I actually have a question for you. I have a request for legal information which I'm truly interested in. I think it will be useful to other members of the public as well as to members of council. Is it as cut and dried as we've heard from Council Member Hutsmith that we are only able to consider those exact aspects in our decision or do we have broader latitude? We have public comment I assume for reason. Are we allowed to take that into account? Are we allowed to take future land use map into account or is it really exactly as it has been described? It should be a very different conversation. I think the standards for approval of the detail plan are set forth in the old chapter 35, it's section 154 and those four criteria they're actually four and those standards are listed in your staff analysis backup. Those are the criteria that you're supposed to use to determine whether or not to approve the detail plan. If you're not able to find facts from the presentation from the applicant, from the public to meet these four standards, you have the ability to impose certain conditions to meet and address those concerns or adverse impacts to surrounding uses. That's the criteria you use to guide you in whether or not to approve the detail plan. The land use plan is irrelevant for this case because the PD ordinance is what controls and I know we've got a future land use map but it's not for purposes of what you're looking at today. It's not determinative. It's not determinative, yes. Mayor Portem, I know this has gone on long and will go on longer, but if you would indulge, I think it would be to the benefit of this speaker and others to see again exactly the four criteria so they know you can influence us if you can speak to those four criteria. So could we reiterate those four things so that you can help me help you. How about a dome over it and a closed dome? It's one of those. It's open eight hours a day, not 24 hours a day, five days a week. Just a thought. And I agree that looking at that criteria would be a good thing. I'd like to get to know what the rest of the council feels on that. Would you like to see that have staff show that one more time? Quick go through. Just kind of Councilmember Armitage or. I was going to say very quickly to Councilmember Meltzer or you could vote no. Well OK, but I don't want to violate the law by voting no. If that were a violation of the law, I don't think this would be coming up before us. That's really the essence of my question. It's like is it, you know, we have a choice of yes or no. Yes, which is why we're voting. But yet, you know, we've just heard a legal opinion that it must be on those four criteria. And this is not a what we normally have come through on a zoning case. I think we would be best off having staff come back up and go through those bullet points one more time and then we'll continue on with. So I have to go back to 1999 and have this argument with all due respect. Doesn't make sense. If you can, sir, we're done with questions for you at this point. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right, so the request was to go through the four conditions. Yeah, four conditions. I want public speakers to pay close attention because that 's what we're supposed to be ruling on. Yes, broad scale. The question before you is approval of these particular plans and the site design rather than the use itself. So, again, the first criteria is compliance with the general concept plan that's been approved for the property. That concept plan is shown here with the property being the southern portion of this triangle outlined in red, which was designated for commercial use. The second criteria being the plan provides for compatible arrangement of buildings and land uses that would not adversely affect adjoining neighborhoods or properties outside of the plan. Can you stop on that after that? That's the key standard out of the four. And so, you know, if you can leave it up there so that you can kind of, you know, absorb that particular standard or criteria. That's the one that's going to be based on testimony, staff , presentation, your thoughts, and whether or not this standard has been met. Whether it's compatible, it would not adversely affect adjoining neighborhoods. And in addition to that, with the conditions I mentioned earlier, are there conditions that you can impose to help address any adverse impact to the surrounding neighborhoods? Okay. Thank you. That was helpful. Would you like me to go into the other two? Yes, please. All right. The final two, third being that the plan provides for adequate and safe vehicular circulation of traffic. And then the final being the plan is in substantial compliance with the landscape sign subdivision and other regulations of the city, or if not, that the plan offers corresponding benefits that merit deviation from those regulations. And I'd be happy to dive into any of these a little bit further if you need. Does that help you, Councilman? The previous one helped me more. The previous analysis, but it helped go back to that? Yes, thank you. All right. We will continue on. The next card I have is from Steven Shannon. Sure. Steven Shannon, 319 West Oak, Denton, Texas, 76201. I 'm the property owner adjacent to the applicant. I think it's important to note that we say these words, kind of, coordinates and rules, they're a law. It's a law. We are held to the same laws that have been put in place. I think that's what Councilman Hutzpah has been saying. These rules that you're calling are laws. They're in place to protect me as a landowner, to protect everyone. Whatever the laws of our land are, we have to abide by them . And so what's before you today is not whether a car wash can go here. That's already been a law that was passed 20 years ago. What's before you is these four items that we need to approve on the detail plan. It's kind of hard to say that his use doesn't work here. Why? He's already doing it in the PD with his car wash. He's on track one. I find it hard to believe that we're imposing additional requirements above the law that has been set in place for 20 years and kind of don't, that doesn't cause us pause. I'm not saying whether we like it or not. That's not, I don't like driving 15 in the school zone, but I have to. There's a good reason for it. There's been concern about noise and traffic . That's not from the applicant. What's that from? That's from 2499 opening up. It's not anything the applicant's done. We're talking about traffic flows through the neighborhood. He's got a single loop in and out of his property that goes in and out of 2499. It has nothing to do with the traffic in the neighborhood. To do anything other than vote for yes or this gives me concern that the laws that I try to operate under are just kind of being chucked out the window here. I don't think that's right. If you look at development coming up and down 2499, this is absolutely how 2499 has developed. I've got a couple of pictures here just to show you that if I can get it. The overhead pulled up. This is 2499 and 407 down in Flower Mound. You'll see retail development with houses all around it. This, you can see this right here is 2499 with 1171. There's retail with houses also around it. These are two other cities and let's go to our city. Here's Teasley. There's a car wash right there. What's adjacent to it? Houses. This is Teasley. You guys may recognize these buildings. This is our fire station and this is our library. What's right below it? Houses. Commercial backing up to residential has been done time and time again . That's how things develop. It's compatible use. It's good enough for our city to put buildings against it. It's approved by law. I have a hard time figuring out why we can 't approve what we've got before us from those criteria. I would just ask you, encourage you to understand the law, to abide by it. That way we all know the rules are played by. Thank you. Councilmember Romer told me. I have a question. You mentioned that you live on North Elm, but you're the property owner here. You have a business right next door to where the car wash is? I own the land next to the car wash. Do you have a business there or is it just a- No, my business is here in Denton. I live here in Denton. We bought the property with the understanding that these laws were in place when we bought it. I see. You own the actual lot that it is going on? No. Josh owns the lot that's going on. I own the property next door. Next door. That's back to my original understanding. Right now it's just an empty lot? That's correct. Do you have specific plans for what to do with it that make a car wash really compatible with your plans for that space? My plan is to adhere to what's in the PD when we get to the point that we're ready to develop, but I don 't have any specific plans as of date. Okay. Thanks. Thank you very much. Next up we have David Furr. I'm David Furr, 6500 Longleaf. I live within the 200 foot radius of the car wash. I can actually see his land from my game room, so if I'm sitting upstairs watching TV, I'm going to have this lovely view of a 30 foot tower out of the top of my window. My main concern about this was not necessarily the traffic or the crime. I know it's been brought up and I know it is a concern and it is a concern. My main concern at this point is my view and the view of my neighbors. I understand that he's doing a great job. He has a lovely car wash. I've visited it many times. The problem with it is that he has a car wash that is right at one mile away from where he's proposing to put this new car wash along with five other car washes all up and down teesley. The market there is saturated. It's ridiculous that we have to have another one put in. As to the gentleman before me's concern about, "Oh, well 1171 is developed and there's all this stuff on 1171. There's all this stuff on 407." That was existing. That was existing before 2499 was built. Highland Village fought 2499 for a long, long time because they did not want their residents having a highway running through their back yards. When 2499 finally pushed through Highland Village and up into Denton, everything along there was residential. Everything that is along 2499 from just north of that Walmart all the way up to State School Road or what was State School Road is residential. Now they're trying to shoehorn one business. There's two lots there. One of them is, as he mentioned, he doesn't have any plans just as of yet, but they're trying to shoehorn a car wash into the middle of a neighborhood. It makes no sense. "Sir, I'm glad you do very well with your car wash. I applaud you for that. I think that's great. Would I love to see you build another one, another branch?" "Yes, build another branch. I don't care. That's awesome. Expand. You've got a small business. It's the American dream. It's the way things are supposed to be done, but just reconsider, just reconsider where you want to build this land. Yes, I know, oh, it was slotted back in 1999. Neighborhoods have sprouted since 1999. The only thing commercial around us right now is up there at the 7-Eleven and the storage facility and the car wash that's existing up there. I have heard complaints from my neighbors that live down by that car wash that the noise level did raise. I get that. It's a business. It's a car wash. It's 24/7. The noise level is going to raise. I thank you for allowing it the hours that you have to where you can sit there and say, "Okay, well, it's only going to be open until 8 or 9 o'clock." I also look at it too to where I've got a kid at home. I've got another kid on the way. At 7, 38 o'clock when I'm trying to put my kids to bed for school, but they've still got to deal with an hour's worth of noise from a car wash. How is that helping me? That's all I have. Thank you. Thank you. Next up is Michael Thomas. That's all the cards I have, but this is a public hearing, so anyone who wishes to speak can come forward and you'll have your four minutes. State your name and address. Hello. My name is Rose Brandt. I live at 6600 Halingway. When we were here at the building last meeting, whatever that was called, I was here. We asked for some concessions from this gentleman. Yes, sir, I also emptied my bank account to buy that land and house. There were concessions that there was going to be an eight-foot retaining wall. Okay, so maybe let's bring it down to six. Let's make it plastic. That's what I'm hearing here. There's not a whole lot of traffic. There's only one way in and one way out. There's a street that runs perpendicular to that car wash called Pine Hills that has a pool on it that has lots of kids running back and forth. At one time, that was supposed to be a dead end. That's how it was sold to me. It is directly across from where that exit and entrance is to that car wash. People are going to zoom down Pine Hills like bats out of hell. Anybody who gets hurt, I will blame the city council for because they did not see it. They only are seeing one side of that map and that's it. That 30-foot tower is like a finger in my face because we asked him at that planning and zoning commission to lower the tower and he is not doing that. I don't know if that was reflected in the minutes you have, but I was here at that meeting and I heard that. I ask you to reconsider or to make him fulfill those standards that we asked for. If he's going to put a business there, think about the people who are paying the taxes across the street and around the corner. You may not get elected next time if you do this. Thank you. Thank you. Ma'am, we do have a question from Councilmember Armitage. Are you aware if there have been a traffic study done? I know that there is accidents almost routinely on what's the name of that road that goes to Krogh? Hickory Creek in 2499. I would say five accidents a week. They have that barreled off most of the time and when they open it, the traffic accidents begin again. There are kids that will go into high school crossing those roads to get to Guy or to get to the other schools in the neighborhood. There is a middle school or elementary school off of I think it's Post Oak around there and Teasley. Sam Houston . Yeah. There are a lot of schools. There are a lot of kids in the neighborhood. When they were building that road, kids were going through my backyard to get to school. You have to consider these things. It's a car wash and it's a business. Granted, he's put money down on the land and he should build it. However, there are safety protocols to be had that this council, it was put in place to think about. Thank you very much. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak? Yes, sir. Come on down. State your name and address and your time will begin. Nathan Toon, 3717 Merrimack Drive in Denton. I also live on 2499. My house backs up to not quite this property, but I would say less than a quarter mile from here. I'm also a local real estate person. I focus mostly on commercial real estate. I had heard some rumblings from neighbors about this project and researching PDs and ordinances is something I do on a regular basis. I geeked out on it one night and read the PD ordinance. I couldn't help but be appreciative of Council Member Hutspice's position because I know from experience that the City of Denton has had quite a bad reputation in the commercial real estate, retail real estate world as far as development goes, the ease and common sense nature in which it is to develop. I feel like we are getting close to getting over that. I feel like development and growth is good for the city. I've seen, for example, my next door neighbor. If anybody in here who has issues with maybe this development, if they would want to let me know, I could probably sell their house for more now than they ever could get in the last 10 years because of the ease of which you can get around on 2499. I think that 2499 has had a positive impact on the property value, at least from what I've seen to my neighbors, myself, and the city. Commercial development on major arterial roads is something that just happens. I don't think it was happenstance that this gentleman decided that he wanted to buy this lot. He didn't want to buy it to create traffic. He bought it because the traffic was already there. That's kind of the mindset that retailers and commercial businesses use. They don't search to go and create traffic. In this particular case, it's contained within his particular development. When I heard about what had taken place at the PNZ and some of the things that were being said, I wanted to come and voice my concern about, like Council Member Hunspeth said, trying to change the laws from the dais and circum vent property owners' rights, which the people that have spoken before me all have the same rights as the gentleman who bought the land where the car wash is proposed. Then kind of a side note, I'd like to just mention, Council Member Hunspeth, I sold a car wash on 2499 about four months ago that was closer than 20 feet to a residence. It's the express car wash in between the Sonic and the Exxon station at 2499 and 35 that Mr. Carruthers owned for, I don't know, 30 or 40 years. That is one that I have experienced. I sold it , like I said, recently, kind of a side note. The traffic, it's almost unavoidable given the fact that Teasley Lane is about to get blown up. Myself included, we look for ways to cut through the neighborhood to get to Kroger, to get to wherever else. Because like this lady said, I think it was a poor judgment on TexDot's part and their design that at Hickory Creek in 2499, there's a lot of traffic accidents, but that's because of a wall that impedes the site, not the amount of traffic. We do have a couple of questions from some Council Members. Council Member Hunspeth. I'm waiting until after you close the... Oh, okay. Thank you. Council Member Bouncer. I have a question for the applicant. I have a question for ... Let's roll up the speakers and close the public hearing. Right there with you. Are we allowed to bring the applicant back after we close the public hearing? Do we need to do that for questions before we close that? Bring them back for questions before you close the public hearing. I do have a question for you though. You say you live there on 2499. It's recently opened and you're dealing commercial real estate. Yes, sir. Back in the PD days, when we would split zoning, we would have this part's going to be residential, this part's going to be commercial. 2499 did not exist in that area when this was zoned that way. Would you have been able to sell it? Would someone have built prior to this point? We talk about the 20 year time period that we've been waiting on the road to be built before we're going to put the business in, as you said. Sure. Simply selling four acres at the back of a residence that fronted no road, that'd be hard to sell. It's my understanding that the PD was created and given that commercial zoning knowing that 2499 was planned. I believe that's partially why the overhead power lines take the route that they do, which is basically adjacent to where 2499 is and cut back through the neighborhoods, which separates. I believe there's a hundred foot power line easement between the residences to the west and this gentleman's property line, which creates additional buffer. To answer your question, it's my understanding that the commercial was given at the back of a neighborhood only because 2499 was known to be a possibility in the future. Council Member Briggs? Not for him. Not for him. All right. Thank you, sir. Thank you. This is a public hearing. Does anyone else wish to speak? My name is Willie Hatchbeth. I live at 623 Newton. A couple of things I want to talk about. This brings to mind, I don't have a dog in the hunt. I don't care. It doesn't affect me one way or the other, this ruling, per se. So it's really kind of neat to hear you all talk about it. It brings to mind several things, and I've been doing this for, ooh, since 1985. And it brings up several issues and things that I brought before you trying to get you to change. And I'm hearing how you're grappling with them. So I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm just going to tell you what I hear. One, well, one fact. 2499 is a fast street to drive on. And I have old vehicles so everybody passes me up. But I see how fast everybody's trying to go somewhere. I don't know where. I usually see them at the red light when I finally get there. But it's noisy. They just have traffic on it. None of this is going to change that. It's still going to be noisy. What I was wondering, as I sat in my seat trying to stay awake and as cold as heck in here, is what does the water do coming out of those faucets that make so much noise? What are these car washers doing? I'm thinking, I've been around car washers. Is that what we're talking about? Noise? The trees will be a better buffer than anything we can do. God put those there. I think maybe that 's why he put them there. For buffers. I don't know. That's my thinking again. Now let me get down to the issue. Buc-kies. You remember that discussion about buckies? Where it's going to be, the trees that's going to be moved, that big old wall that they put up there, it's the same stuff that's going on right now. What do you do? So you're in the council seats now. Different story. You got to make a decision. You're blank if you do it, you're blank if you don't. Councilman Hutzpeth, that boy has given me trouble since he was seven years old, but he makes a lot of sense. God bless his heart. He makes a lot of sense. Bonnie Bray is coming up. The street that I have, the same kind of problem the homeowners have. I bought the thing planning to live there. And here you guys come in 12 years ago, I think it was, you say you're going to widen the street. You took out my 100 year old tree. 100 years old you took it out. What they told me then is these are the rules. We 're going to follow the rules. Here's your dilemma. You've got to follow the rules. He's right, I think. No one's going to trust you if you come in here and you start trying to manage planning and zoning up here with your rule changes and yielding to the cries of the public. I can tell you one thing I'm going to do, you start doing that and I'm going to be crying a lot. I'm going to be in there crying and I'm going to say, remember when you did? And that's the Pandora's box you're going to open when you do that. Just make sure you 're on solid ground. When you make your vote, make it vote, make your vote based on one thing, you have the right to make it and that you are making it based on what you would do in any situation like this and not on emotion. Thank you. I believe we had a question or two for the applicant if you would come down. Councilman Meltzer. I'm right here. When I look at the criteria, one of them I'm asked by law to make a judgment about is compatibility. There's clearly more than one possible answer there, which I'm sure is evident to you. But when I listen for what the compatibility issue is, I'm going to talk a little before I get to the question. Not convinced that there's a traffic issue. I'm not convinced it's a crime issue. I think it's mostly just sort of type of structures that are there. It's in the time since the zoning came about, it became a neighborhood of houses and you look real different. And the thing that most stands out is your 30 foot tower. So my question to you is that a functional feature or a cosmetic feature? The simple answer is both. We do have a second story mezzanine in there and we will house all of our spot free water storage tanks. In the second story are air compressors and some of our pumps. So it actually does save floor space as well. You've heard the same things I've heard tonight. Are there palatable alternatives that would use more floor space but that would do away with the 30 foot tower, which I think is sort of the most offensive aspect from what I'm hearing. The answer is absolutely. We can redesign the entire property and put a different building on it. Well, yeah, and I'm not trying to be, you know, not unreasonable. Agreed. I understand. And as 30 feet, yes, the ordinance is three stories, is the maximum in Wheeler Ridge. 30 feet is well under that. So in the last meeting why I preferred not to, I didn't outright object to not moving my height. I preferred not to because I'm well within the established law of land. And as far as I can tell, can't disagree with you on your right, but then it makes it a harder decision for me on compatibility. So we've got a lot of things to weigh here. So I guess, I don't know if you can count noses yet, but, you know, how seriously would you entertain that if it would help me vote that it is compatible? Would you entertain the alternative of not having a tower in a residential neighborhood? I have conflicting thoughts on that front. What can I do easily and what takes an entire redesign? Sure. Unfortunately, easily is a couple feet. Does that change enough to even matter? Probably not. Right. That's where my head is at. And then secondarily, I would have to be opposed because, yes, then it would take a full redesign to go the other way . Okay. Council Member Brinks. So that kind of touches on my point as well. So the issue that when I look at this project, it looks like the traffic you've taken care of, the noise with the vacuums you've agreed to, you've moved them from where the buffer fence is, right , into the inside on the opposite side of the car wash? Is that what I'm understanding? No changes were made. They have always been inside and housed in an insulated room. So that's the way I prefer to build a car wash, so my vacuums don't make noise. That was – and all I'm saying is they've been in there since day one . There wasn't a change on that front. Oh, okay. Because when I looked at the vacuum plan, when it said moved interior, because on the image, it was they were backed up like right next to the homes, like the vacuums were closer to the homes. And when I heard they were moved to the interior, I thought the design was switched. And so the vacuums would be not so close to that wall, which would make complete sense if you're trying to take care of the noise level, because I use car washes and I use the vacuums, and they are very loud. So – and then when you have that many in that small area backed up against those neighbors, if they're in their backyard, that 's going to be a really big inconvenience. And I know that you're aware of that. So that's my concern, one of them. And so that's why when you said that your other car wash is open 24 hours, it gave me pause, because you weren't in favor of the restricted hours that staff proposed. And so that's another concern for me for now. So that's just where I am. If you would like to address any of those or make me feel better, I'm open. You know, I think the only thought that comes to mind is, you know, what makes the noise in the vacuum? Right? There are two things. There is the machine, the electric motor and the swirly pump that makes the vacuum. Right? That's what I have indoors. Right? I've got it in its own separate room. It's an insulated room. You won't hear it. The other thing that makes noise with vacuums is when you physically take the nozzle and you stick it on your floor and you take it off. And you stick it on your floor and take it off, which is just kind of what Willie discussed to it goes, it's a little bit of noise. And yes, if you have 20 people vacuuming at the same time, could that be amplified? Absolutely. And secondarily, we have noise ordinances. If I'm in violation of the noise ordinances, I will pay the penalties. Right? So that topic is addressed with city law. One more question . At some of these car washes, you drive through and there's like flashing lights that are really bright. Yes. And I did not catch the tower. I don't know if it's all like glass, but do you have that type of system where there's going to be neon flashing lights inside the tower? Not inside the tower. No. And I did talk through signage with Haley on the tower. And that's where we came to the happy medium of the additional sign conditions. I think that was basically conditions one and two that were on the planning or she had recommended the planning and so they approved. But from the Southern standpoint, we're not going to illuminate the tower with signage, which is going to say car wash. But no, on the tower, there will not be any moving lights if that's a simple answer to your question. Thank you. Council Member Armitage. I wanted to ask, to your knowledge , are you aware that if there's been a traffic study in this area of the impact that this development would have? I have not. I think Willie said it again. We're building there because there's traffic there. And it's actually something I wanted to side with the residents on and it's not necessarily applicable to our meeting. I'm sure you guys hear it. I'm on 2499 all the time in that area because I want to build a car wash there, right? I'm looking, I'm viewing, I'm going to the property. 2499 is dangerous. There are no speed limits. All those retaining buffers, screening , concrete walls they put up, you can't see to turn on to 2499 from any road. So there's no speed limits and there's no visibility. I would support anything to get that changed, whether that's petitions, whether that's going to text out meetings. I am 100% on their side because it's for the good of all. So that's easy. But to answer your question again, as far as a traffic study for building a car wash there, there has not been an impact study. No. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And I would like to request that there is, that a traffic study is done. I can respond to this. The city has got plans to widen Hickory Creek next year and signalize the intersection. There's no need to do the traffic study. A business like this won't move the needle at all. We've already got the data to justify the signal. So in terms of the traffic, we totally agree it's a priority. But the planning is already taking place. We're working on the permits and the design right now. But when you're talking a couple hundred cars a day, it's not going to make any difference at all to that signal. It's already been widened and the signal's already been approved. To the residents and the side streets off of Teasley. A traffic study would take into consideration the major arterials and the roads already been sized for that. So typically a traffic study would be determining whether or not you need to add capacity to a road and whether a signal would be needed there. So that's already been done. Okay. So we don't do traffic studies to determine the impact on. There's no direct route from this particular project to the residents. What you're concerned about is Hickory Creek and 2499. 2499 has already been widened to its ultimate build up. The signals already been justified and the design of H ickory Creek will be essentially doubled in width. So it's already being planned and paid for by the city. Okay. Thank you. I'm still concerned about the impact on the residents around there, but I understand what you're saying. Thank you. Council Member Hussbett. You're still winning. Council Member Melter. I have a question for the City Attorney. Can you remind us the consequences of a tied vote would be in this case? Under your rules of procedure, a tied vote would not be a failed motion or denied motion. Basically what your rules provide is that this item would then be continued to the next regular meeting at which a full council can be had and it keeps repeating until you have seven members. So I don't know what the vote's going to be. We won't know until it's a vote. For a tie, player odds, what would happen now. But I just want to make sure you're aware of that so that if you want to make it easier to get four votes based on what I've told you about compatibility, in my view of the compatibility, you know. I get it. It's a full redesign to do it. I don't mention it lightly, but I just wanted you to have that information. I understand. Thank you. I don't see any further questions for you at this time. Thank you. We still have the public hearing open, so does anyone else wish to speak? Anyone else wishing to speak? One last time. Anyone else? All right. We will close the public hearing and we will open it up for discussion. Councilmember Hussb ett. All right. And Haley, after I try to be succinct and then I have a question for you, the applicant didn't say he was opposed to the hours. He said he was opposed to the limitations that would force him to come back. We're spending millions, I don't know the number, of dollars to create a straight path down May Hill from 380 all the way to 2499. We're spending, we budgeted $5 million on a bridge to accomplish that. So this council, this is that duplicity that becomes a very real thing. We're going to spend multiple million dollars to increase traffic on this very highway. And then we're going to take a principled stand against traffic on this very highway. When you talk about people not being in this office, you've got to defend that. Why are you voting to spend millions of dollars? But for Keely, who didn't like us taking out the trees on May Hill, everybody else voted for that thing. And so you've got to, and some weren't here, I get it, but ultimately you've got to draw a straight line as a councilperson and you have to be able to defend your actions. And we're here putting ultimatums and everything else on a PD. And so I have a question for legal first. Legal, we have a exact same car wash, not exact by design, but exact function, which were not supposed to be considered, that's dominated this whole conversation. So if someone were to take us to task on considering things that are not to be considered, they have about an hour and a half worth of tape to support their case. But my point is this. We have a car wash in this PD that's miles away, it's not far, already. What are the ramifications or what is the legal justification to then say no a few blocks down the road? It would be, as I mentioned earlier with the four standards that you have before you and the second standard or criteria was the most important. So there may be factors on the ground that at this location that may separate it from or may be different than what's on Teasley and Robinson. Okay. So what's the legal standard for a neighborhood? How big is the neighborhood? I don't think there's a legal standard for neighborhood other than it being residential. Right. So the same residential that's not too far away from that other car wash can apply to this car wash. And the same gas well that's right in the middle of this neighborhood, a block down the road that affects the neighborhood, we would then make the argument that that gas well is less adverse than a commercial use that's allowed by the PD. That would be our, that's our positioning according to the rules. If the facts that you're using to make that determination, then it would be yes. Okay. Very good. So Haley, if I could borrow you once more, please. So it's a very simple pointed question. When we look at the issue at hand that Legos pointed out that people are trying to leverage, I'm looking at your presentation, the analysis slide in staff's opinion based on your assessment, based on your understanding of the PD, based on your research you've done on this project, does this property or this proposed site plan, is it compatible with the arrangement of the buildings and the land uses and would it not adversely affect the adjoining neighborhoods or properties outside the plan? So in your, in your analysis, what is your answer to that? Staff is recommending approval because we found that it meets these four criteria with the conditions that we've recommended here today. Okay. And you have a planner's degree, I'm assuming? It's actually environmental science. Okay. And you've been, and you've been in planning for how long? Two years. Okay. Very good. Thank you. I'm good. So I'm going to sum up with this. I don't see how you, I've not seen, well, better said, I look forward to someone arguing the merits and removing the emotion because we have a duty here and we've bullied this man to no end in front of everyone at this day as for the last hour trying to find a justification that does not exist. If we want to go back and bully the empty piece of property next to him, you know, then that's one thing. But the fact of the matter is all of it is we're spending money to increase traffic in this very area, millions. And so I don't see how you reconcile those two to vote no. I get it that you want to, I wanted to, but I also want to follow the rules. And I also am sensitive to the neighbors and, and, and I don't disagree with, with anything they've said, but there's a gas well there. There's other businesses. Kroger backs up to it. Kroger backs up to the gas well. There's a 24 hour fitness that backs up to a neighborhood. The gentleman pointed out a library and a fire station. You think a fire station backing up to a neighborhood? I think they make noise and I think it's 24 hours a day. And so do we, do we shut that down? Let's, let 's move that too. And so I just, there'll be conversations in the future and there'll be advocates that say do what the rules say to do. If you don't like the rules, change it . But what we have today is what we have to work with. And, and so with that, I'm going to move approval. I've already said that I'm not crazy about the project, but I'm not going to rewrite laws, rules here at this dais on the fly. I'm not going to vote to widen 24 99 from highway 380 all the way to 2499. Get, Google that and look up the, look up the math. I'll look up the math while the debate's going on and I'll give, I'll try to give you a number, but it's an access, the bridge alone is 5 million. So it's an access probably of about $10 million that we're spending to increase traffic in this very location. And then we'll argue that it's not a good location for commercial business is very, very, very interesting to me. So I move approval of item A as constituted with the three conditions. And those three conditions are? The retaining wall? Let me get to that slide to be, to be clear. Okay. Can you, yes. Can you pull that up please? Because the only one I, I agreed to drop off as a time and I think staff can work with the applicant to satisfy the bridge and work around the trees. I think that, so if you can go back to the first two. Right. So I move approval of item A with the conditions prescribed here, but for the time and but for number three, the eight foot masonry screening wall. I think I would adjust, I would strike eight feet and add six feet. And in addition to that, I would strike masonry. So again, move approval, item A with the exceptions one, two, three, I would strike masonry and strike eight feet, add six feet. And then if we, yes, thank you. And then I would add condition five. Council member, just to make clear, the masonry wall requirement is a requirement of the code. So I just wanted to make sure that, that moving forward, we knew that so we weren't kind of straying from that. So, but does it, I think it says light, does it say masonry or light? Specifically it says brick stone or similar materials. Right. So I'm comfortable with that. Six feet comfortable, comparable materials. Okay. Yeah. So as I understand it, basically we are striking, you were wanting to strike items three and four from the conditions. Because since the PD already requires a six foot masonry, by striking item three, we're just saying we don't need the eight foot, we still need the six foot. That is correct. Okay. All right. I'm going to go ahead and recognize a second and then we will continue on with discussion council member Dove. I don't have quite as much to say. I just second it. Thank you. Council member Armitage. Thank you. I just want to say to my colleagues and council and anybody listening that we, as I understand it, have the right to vote on the compatibility of these plans and compatibility is not an objective judgment call. It is subjective and we have the right, in fact, I would say, we've been elected to make these kinds of subjective judgments as we see fit. That's not a violation of the law. I believe that it is a part of the process. And that same flexibility of the process is also what enables developers to come before us with requests for variances. We can choose to grant or not grant those two based on compatibility. So I have no qualms whatsoever voting no because I don't see this as being compatible with the neighborhood. And if somebody wants to weigh that against my prior votes in the two months or whatever I've been on council, that's fine. I'm here to kind of take each vote on its own and to listen and to weigh all the factors. And there's more than one right way to do this. It's a subjective judgment. So I just wanted to state that for the record. Thanks. Council member Melter. Thank you. I have no concern about the traffic. It's not my issue. I agree completely with council member Hutsmith about 2499 and our general plans. In any other place, I might have given consideration to noise, but given where it is, you know, I don't think it's going to make any difference. I don't think there's any substantiation for the crime concern. Commercial use is allowed by law and the specific use is allowed by law. My objection is on the issue that I'm required by law to make a judgment on, which is compatibility. And it's on form. And I, you know, would welcome a different form, you know, for that use. But as it stands today, I'm going to be voting no. I hope that if it ultimately prevails, I'll be very successful. And I hope that you find a solution that preserves the trees. And on the high perspective, I'm 100% willing to work with staff to amend the rules. At this point, we've already closed the public hearing. So council member Briggs. So I appreciate you yelling that. It would have been nice to hear earlier. And I think maybe you will have a chance to come back because at this moment in time, I am uncomfortable as well with the motion that was made because I believe the hours of operation are very important to the neighbors, especially those that butt up and the noise. You know, we do have nuisance and noise level ordinance, but that is very hard to enforce. And we have issues with that all around our city. I get several emails about noise. And also in the recommendation and in the requirement of the 91 plan, it says that the trees must be saved. So there's no way that those trees are going to be taken out anyway from what I can gather. They have to be there. And so and then the other issue I have with the original motion is that I believe the eight foot fence is necessary because that is something that was put in place by PNZ after hearing the neighbors talk that was put in place by them to protect the neighbors they heard come out and speak against the project. And I'm a little I don't like to see that taken out. So I understand the confusion of the residents because I myself was confused as well. Normally when we have ish items like this come up, we're talking about zoning where we're not looking at something that was approved many, many years back. So what I'm voting on tonight isn't the use. It's not the car wash. It is the the other items that we are talking about. I am okay with the traffic . I'm okay with with the use. I just feel like there should be stronger protections there to protect the neighbors and increase compatibility with the area. So that's where I am. Thank you. As I look at this and I see the 30 foot height, I don't have any problem with it. My house is over 35 foot tall. It's a two story. I've got a central back at my house. So unless you walk out in the garage when my wife's vacuum ing, sometimes I do it too. You don't hear the motors out in the garage. So that sound issue to me is taken care of by item five. The eight foot versus six foot wall when you 've got 30 to 50 foot high trees, I don't see where that's a major concern of mine as to which way it was. The hours of operation, I kind of would like to have those in. So I'd like to know if Council Member Hussbuss would be willing to amend his motion to add that back in. Because as I see it, you may have, you've got two people who are on the edge without that in there. Is that something you would be willing to add back in? The hours of adding number four back in, the hours of limitation? Would you be willing to amend your motion to adjust for that? Again, I'm not overly concerned on three. I can go either way because again, we've got 30 to 50 foot high trees that are already there that are going to substantially block any of that. They're going to act much more as a sound deter rent than what that wall would. Sure. Yes. No, I would agree to that amendment. Okay. And Council Member Duff? Yes. Okay. All right. Council Member Briggs, is that something that is in line with what you're thinking? I think that's much better that it's put back in, but I still have issues with the noise butting up right to the neighbors. I think the eight foot fence was put in there for purpose. And as long as that's out, I'm still out. Okay. Let me call on Council Member Meltzer. I doubt I'll persuade you one way or the other, Mayor Pro Tem, but I would just like, you don't have to answer me. It's a rhetorical question. But does the Ryan Tower, as your neighbors refer to your house, sit already on land that's 12 foot higher than what's around it? I think that's what makes this a little different. Well, it depends. My neighborhood is fully hilled. So my neighbors behind me are eight to 10 feet higher than I am. I said it was rhetorical, John. You didn't have to answer. Thank you. Council Member Hussman? Thank you. We got to get moving. I mean, it's almost 10. So here's, if I could reload the motion and we'll just vote. How about that? Is that all right? We start up from scratch? I don't know if the rule -- Let's hear the motion you're allowed to have. Yeah. So here we go. And onward, upward, and everyone can get on social media and stake their claim. Haley, if you can roll me back to the list of number one, and here we go. Sharpen your pencil. Okay. So I'm going to move approval of vitamin A with all the conditions listed here. One through five. Or is it six? Five. One through five. So that's my motion. As is and -- All right. Council Member Deff, are you willing to -- I will second that. All right. All right. We have a motion and a second to include all the recommendations, which includes the eight foot and the time limit. Is there any further discussion? All right. Let's vote on the board then. And the motion passes four to two. All right. We've been going at it for quite some time, and I don't think Richard Hayes was giving us a challenge to be here till midnight, but -- Welcome back. It is 1009. We are going to resume our regular meeting of the City Council for August 21st. We are on item 6B of public hearings, and this item is hold a public hearing, consider adoption of an ordinance for initial zoning of our regional center residential RCR 1 district for approximately 15.06 acres. And before you get started, let me go ahead and open up the public hearing. All right. I'm Julie Wyatt, senior planner with the City of Denton, and I am presenting Z 1890 this evening. So the request before you is to hold a public hearing and consider an initial zoning for the subject property of RCR 1, that's regional center residential 1. The subject property is about 15 acres. It's located on the north side of Edwards Road, about 850 feet east of South May Hill . It's actually part of a larger tract, a 19-acre tract, that was brought into the city on two separate occasions. First, the western four acres was annexed in 1983, and in the 2002 rezoning -- or citywide rezoning, it received a zoning designation of RCR 1. The subject property was annexed in 2010 as part of a citywide annexation plan. It was part of DH 8, which included a total of 28 acres and several parcels. So when property is annexed into the City of Denton, it receives a placeholding zoning designation until that time in which the property owner seeks an initial zoning. So that placeholding zoning designation is RD 5X, and the property can't be developed except for those uses approved in -- or permitted in RD 5X at the building scale and the lot dimensional requirements. So tonight, the applicant is coming forward for that initial zoning to extend that RCR 1 that's on that four acres to the entire tract. So when we receive a rezoning request, we have criteria of approval we look at in subchapter 3 of the Denton Development Code. First, is it conformed to the future land use plan? And then second, is there adequate provision of transportation, water, sewer, schools, parks, and other public services? So first, we'll take a look at Denton Plan 2030. The future land use designation of the subject property is business innovation. The intent of this is to provide for well-planned large-scale employment parks, also with supporting uses such as retail, hotels, and residential. The proposed RCR 1 is not a zoning district we typically see for business innovation. However, it does meet the intent because it permits those supporting uses, the higher density residential, the commercial uses that are meant to complement nearby employment centers. It also permits those uses at a reduced scale and intensity so that they would be more compatible with nearby residential areas. Here's the subject property right here in black. We also looked at the mobility of the area. First of all, the property is, as I said, is located on Edwards. That is a collector roadway. It's also near some other modes of transportation. It's about a quarter mile from the DCTA rail trail, and it's also about a half a mile from the Med Park station. And if you can see, the Med Park station is there. It is the blue star, and then the rail trail is the purple line. We also looked at some of the roadway changes that are proposed for the area. I know we've talked about that Mayhill corridor tonight. And right now, the proposed changes for Mayhill in this area are conceptual. They haven't been finally designed yet. But the alignment of Mayhill is intended to change in this area, which will eventually change the alignment of Edwards Road. And then you can also see the alignment of Edwards Road is proposed to change, and this is just an illustration. It is not the final design. So in our analysis, a couple of other points we looked at that when staff analyzed the request, we felt that RCR 1 is consistent with an extension of the existing zoning on the same parcel and also the property to the north. So if approved, RCR 1 would kind of close up this whole area and have consistent zoning in that block. The subject property is kind of located in a transition area between a lot of large-scale employment uses that you see to the west. You've got a hospital here, a lot of medical uses. You also have flower foods, bakeries. So you have a lot of employment uses near. But this area is between that and some residential neighborhoods off to the east. So you've got some of our larger neighborhoods to the east. This is kind of a transition area, and RCR 1 makes sense both in terms of use because it allows for some of retail uses or some higher-density residential uses to serve both the employment areas and the neighborhoods, but once again at that lower scale. So there's more compatibility with those residential areas. Water service is available, and sewer extensions may be required with plotting. Any development would have to comply with all DDC requirements, including ESAs, tree preservation, buff ers, screening, tree canopy, site design, and lighting requirements. One other thing I wanted to mention, I know there were a couple of questions regarding trees. It's a pretty heavily treed lot. Under current zoning of RD5X, that zoning district is actually exempt from our tree preservation requirements. So if approved, any development on the site would have to comply with those subchapter 13 tree preservation requirements. A public notification was sent out. We haven't received any responses. So based upon the criteria for approval in the Denton Development Code, staff recommends approval of the request. It was presented to the Planning and Zoning Commission on July 25th, and they also recommended approval of the request. I'll stand for any questions if the applicant is here. Any questions for staff? Seeing none, thank you very much. This is a public hearing, so I did not receive any blue cards, but if anyone wishes to speak, they may come down and state your name and address. Anyone wishing to speak? Seeing no movement, we will close the public hearing. Council Member Meltzer? I move the public. Council Member Armator? I second. We have a motion and a second for the initial zoning of 15.06 acres to RCR located off of Edwards Road, 8 50 feet east of South Mayhill Road. Is there any further discussion? Council Member Br iggs? I have a question for staff, please. So you said currently the way that they're zoned, they do not have to comply with the tree ordinance? You are correct. So they could just go in and wipe out the whole thing and then build what? Well, the uses that would be permitted in RD5X. So it is primarily one of our ag districts. So agricultural uses, single family homes, I think there is a vet would be permitted in that zoning district. But yes, RD5X is a zoning district that's exempt from the tree code. Do you know, is this part of the cross timbers forest? There was a small bit of upland habitat, but it doesn't meet that minimum lot size or that minimum size. There hasn't been a tree survey done, so we don't really know what's out there. So I can't say for certain what species or what trees are out there. And that will be required? That will be required. If the zoning is approved, a tree survey would be required with platting and then a tree preservation plan with any development. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Any further discussion? All right. So then we have the motion and the second. Let's go ahead and vote on the board. And the motion carries six to zero. Okay. Our next item, 6C, is hold a public hearing and consider adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton regarding a zoning change from neighborhood residential mixed use to commercial mixed use district on approximately 0.744 acre lot on the corner of Loop 288 and University. And I'll go ahead and open the public hearing before we get started. Good evening, Richard Canone, Development Services Department. The application in front of you tonight is for an approximately three quarter acre parcel on the southwest corner of University in Loop 288. You may recall this was previously a I believe a Shell gas station some time ago. It was actually a non-conforming use. Within that district, an SUP is typically required for a gas station and that's because the gas canopies are counted as a drive through. And so in order to reestablish a gas station at this property, there are essentially two options. Go for the SUP route or rezone the property to CMG. Looking at our land use plan and just the development pattern overall, given that there's two major arterials, we recommend it to the applicant that it probably is more fitting to rezone to CMG and that's why you have the item in front of you this evening. And so it's going really from NRMU to CMG. And as you know, there's the two criteria for approval. The community mixed use is the land use designation. CMG is typically what we see as the zoning district that aligns with that land use designation. Again, public facilities, there are really no extensions. It's already located on two primary arterials. Water and sewer is already available and it's just the re establishment of the use that was really already there previously. Public notification did go out. There were no responses and the planning and zoning commission recommended approval six zero. Any questions for staff? Councilmember Armitage? So how many homes are within those two radii, the 250 feet and the 500? I don't believe any. There may be a home in this area, but I'm not sure if it's... That was my understanding that they're not... It's primarily commercial. Commercial, yeah. Yeah. So, and I mean, did there used to be more homes around there? Not that I'm aware of. Yeah. Thanks. Any other questions for staff? Thank you very much. And this is a public hearing, so anyone wishing to speak may come down and do so. State your name and address and your time will begin. Anyone wishing to speak? Seeing no movement, I will close the public hearing. Council member Briggs? I move approval. Council member Melzer? This makes perfect sense at that location. I second the motion. We have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on the item? All right. The motion and the second is to rezone from neighborhood residential mixed use to commercial mixed use general on approximately .744 acre lot located on the corner of University Drive and loop 288. Since we have no further discussion, let's vote on the board. And the motion carries six to zero. We're now up to item 6D, hold a public hearing, consider adoption of an ordinance of the City of Denton regarding the assignment of initial zoning of NR2 zoning district to parcel one acre parcel of land on the north side of Miller, approximately 460 feet from the intersection of Mosh Branch Road. Welcome back. Welcome back. Let me go ahead and open the public hearing again. Just a little bit of background on this one as well. Again, one acre property. As you can see, there are a number of one acre plots. This subdiv ision was created really through meets and bounds in the '70s in the county. The city annex ed it in 2010 through one of the planned annexation areas. At that time, they really had two choices, a non-annexation agreement or to annex into the city. They went with option two, annexing. So again, it was zoned with the RD5X. It does not meet the five acre limitation. And so there's a vacant lot that somebody owns that now that they've annexed into the city are unable to develop. And so what the applicant has requested is the initial zoning of NR2 to develop the property with a single family home. The two criteria, does it conform to the land use plan and the adequate provisions of public services? The answer to the first question is no, it does not conform. In 2002, when we land used this area, it was land use business innovation, which is not consistent with a single family district. I don't know why at that time why that it applied to such a wide area. But there are separate provisions that allow for approval subject to an additional analysis as it relates to health safety welfare compatibility. Looking at the surrounding area and what it 's been developed with, most are all one acre, as you can see, are one acre single family lots. There are very few that have not yet developed. Again, they cannot develop the property because they don't meet the minimum size under the RD5X. And by zoning NR2, it would not have any negative effect on the properties adjacent to it. Council Member Briggs, do you have a question? Yeah, it just seems odd that that would be such a large area and those are all homes right there. So the business innovation, it's confusing when I looked at it, I didn't quite understand it. Yeah, I don't know why. I think because there are some commercial uses on Moss Branch that maybe it was just a wide cast net at that time. But I think as we move forward with the DVC update and then start to really look at what makes sense rather than sort of casting that wide net. Okay. Thanks. Public facilities, obviously the access is there, North Moss Branch, the collector. Water is available . You can see that in blue. There is no sewer system out there. So they would be required to have septic and in order to have septic, they would need that minimum of a one acre lot . So they would comply with that requirement. Again, public notification went out. There were no responses. We recommended approval as did the Planning and Zoning Commission of 4-0. I'd be happy to answer any questions. Any other questions for staff? Seeing none, we will go ahead and continue with the public hearing. This being a public hearing, anyone who wishes to speak, step forward to the podium. Anyone wishing to speak? Seeing no movement, we will close the public hearing. Councilmember Briggs. I motion to approve a single family home. That was a previous zoning district. SF. Councilmember Ar mitage. And I second that motion. All right. So we have a motion and a second to consider an ordinance for initial zoning classification of NR2 zoning district on a one acre parcel of land located on the north side of Miller Road, approximately 460 feet east of the intersection of Voshfranch. Councilmember Armat ow. I just wanted to take a moment just to thank staff for the work that you guys are doing and reconsidering past zoning decisions and really looking at the current use and just taking all these factors into consideration. And I really appreciate it. And I can see even in just going acre by acre by acre, you know, it makes a big difference. Thank you. Any further discussion? All right. Let's vote on the board. And the motion passes six to zero. That brings us to concluding items. Councilmember Brooks. Okay. So I would like to request a report on hands-free citations. I've had the handheld ban. I've had people wondering if they were issuing citations for that. And also the demographics of the citations received, there was concern during the original approval of that. And so I would just kind of like to see how that is turning out. A work session on types of traffic calming devices and what we do and do not allow in our city. I'd also like a report or a memor andum from the interim police chief on drug use and drugs in the city. I just, you know, you hear things, you see news reports and then people say there's an issue. And as a council member, I have nothing to go on in the background of what all is found in our city. And I just kind of like some information on that. I would also like to request that we add a list of background friendly and rent restricted apartments and management groups on our community development web page so that when people are looking for those resources, they're easily found. On the deck emissions report, we received CO2 equivalent emissions were left off of that list. And those are the ones that pollute the most. And I would like to get those added to the next report and see and find out why they were left off of this last one. And then finally, during our next solid waste presentation, we're going to be discussing, I'd like for council or staff to bring the bulk item fee up and we can discuss that. Like right now, there is a bulk item. You have a free one. Say the couch is free. But if you have a door that's smaller than the couch, it's $25. So I'd like to see about equalizing that a little bit and just having free items, not necessarily that specific unless they have some type of chemical that you need to dispose. Only then I would think a charge would be needed and I'm hoping that that will start to reduce illegal dumping. Thank you. Councilmember Armitage. Yeah, just two items. One, I'd like to propose along the lines of what Willie Hatsbeth had said to us earlier about the council not having yet to come out with a statement on the Confederate monument. I'd like to propose a work session where we could at least discuss the possibility of coming out with some sort of statement and reaching some sort of consensus if that's possible. I understand that it's not up to us, that it's up to the county to decide what to do with it . But I think that's a really reasonable request to and I think it's important that we at least have that discussion and that we have that in public. And then secondly, I'd like to see a reconsideration of the top 20 taxpayer requirement for the EDP board. It's something I've been concerned about in the past. I think it sends the wrong message to taxpayers and to the public in general. All taxpayers work hard to contribute what they contribute and that's no disrespect to those who are among our top 20 taxpayers and I'm not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to be there. But I would at least like to see for a discussion maybe next time something else regarding EDPs is coming up that can be stuck in there, not necessarily time sensitive. But I don't like that requirement. I'd be fine if it just be an at large position or for local business owners regardless of how much they contribute in terms of tax dollars. And that's all. Thanks. Thank you. Councilmember Meltzer. Thank you. I'd just like to ask that when today's work session item F comes back next week, if possible, I'd like it to be preceded by an update on the shelter work task force's progress, which is tasked with giving up ultimately arriving at a more holistic strategic plan in relation to homelessness. Councilmember Houspits. Thank you. I'd like so I think we have time. So in the Friday report, Mr. City Manager, I'd ask you to give us a reminder of how your plan on the new police chief selection. And because what I'm concerned about is there's a public meeting and I don't want if we're going to have an opportunity as a council to talk to the finalists, I don't want I want to try to discourage us from monopol izing public time if we're going to have a second if we're going to have our own shot at it. I think I would ask that we not be there, listen, introduce ourselves. Absolutely. But kind of carve out if that process plays out like others, then we wouldn't have to get our questions in then we can kind of listen and submit those as a follow up and allow the public that opportunity. And then I'd also ask in that same Friday report how you want us as a council to bring you employee issues. Right. And so your office manages those. And so I want to be respectful of your management style and how you want if I hear of an employee issue or something like that, how you want that those issues raised. And then if I could ask I don't know who I'm directing this to, but so I would like a copy of Richard's presentation today, a video I don't know how to carve that out, but maybe Billy can send me either a link that I can download to a flash drive or something. I'd appreciate that if they can give me some guidance on how to carve that out. And then lastly, North Texas Rodeo, if you've not been out, I mean, it's really fantastic. The band things have worked out great. You just load them up, reload them. I've lost quite a bit of money or invested quite a bit of money out there. So kudos to those guys for what they did. Even in the rain, I think they had a good turnout with Pat Green last weekend and just they've been doing a great job volunteers out there, but those bands have been fantastic. So encourage everybody to go out there. Thank you. I'll echo that on North Texas Fair and Rodeo that we've just got a few days left of it. So get out there and enjoy it while you can. I have no other concluding items. Unless anyone has anything else, we will adjourn at 1035. [ Silence ]