Oct 17, 2017 City Council on 2017-10-17 1:00 PM

[BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO] Good afternoon everyone, wanted to welcome you to this meeting of the Denton City Council, Tuesday October the 17th, 2017, it is 1 PM. We do have a quorum, I will call the meeting to order. Our first item on the agenda is citizen comments on consent agenda items. We do have one blue card that I see. Mr. Willie Hutsmith, if you'll come up, state your name and address, your time will begin. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> My name is Willie Hutsmith, I live at 623 Newton. And contrary to what's been said in the past, Gerard is my son and I'm his father. >> Sorry, G. >> First, the seating in here is a problem. I've said it before and looks like it went on deaf ears and we're still crammed in here. And I know I'm not going to make any friends, but just check. Look how comfortable the administration is. That's what I do. Anyway, agenda item Y. [BLANK_AUDIO] I'm just against selling alcohol anywhere. It's just my own pet peeve. I would suggest you do not approve this. This comes from growing up in a family where my father was an alcoholic and he did some really horrific things to the family. So that's just our personal preference, I just wanted to state that. >> Okay, thank you. All right, our next agenda item is request for clarification of agenda items listed on today's agenda, October 17th, 2017. Any clarifications? [BLANK_AUDIO] Yes, Council Member Briggs. >> So item J, it says, authorizing the city manager or his designee to execute all contracts. And it's for a grant, but it's for over $4 million. And I'm just wondering, since this is, I don't know that we 've ever done this before, what the purpose is. Is this time saving or is there a certain thing that only this money can be spent on where it's not coming back to council for different appro vals? >> Okay. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> Good afternoon, Scott Gray, airport manager. This item is just to request and accept the grant. We'll be bringing back each grant separately for the design and then for the construction. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> Okay, well it said in here that it was to allow the city manager to execute all contracts and agreements. Is that, but they will be coming back here individually. >> Yes ma'am. >> Okay. >> That's just to execute the request for the grant at this point. >> Okay. >> And then we'll be bringing back, there's two separate grants, we'll be bringing them back separately. One later this year, one towards the end of next year. >> Okay, good, thank you. >> You're welcome. >> I appreciate that. Item L, I would like to have this pooled for a small presentation so that citizens are aware of the program. And know what they need to do to qualify. [BLANK_AUDIO] Question about Q&W, I keep seeing SCADA coming up frequently. And I do know that there was a part that council approved for the deck. And I didn't know if one of these was an amendment to that. And if so, if that is coming out of that budget. Or if it's something totally separate. >> Good afternoon, I'm Liz Craft from the CTO. To answer your question ma'am, that's just part of our routine maintenance type activities. And we're also looking at doing the lifecycle replacement of some of the hardware to be able to incorporate the additional location of the deck. So it'll help extend that and also provide some additional functionality that they don't have currently. >> So is it Q or W that is in regards to helping the deck? Because both of them mentioned SCADA. >> So Q specifically will help assist the deck. W is just part of our regular maintenance for our patch management services. So this is an effort to keep up to date on maintenance and updates and be able to reach out to the vendor in case of issues. >> Okay, I would like to pull that. >> Yes, please, thank you. And X, I have a question. Recently there was a large outage over in district two and the I guess I was told that we were chasing faults. And I see this word right here, fault. And I'm just wondering is this part of that and is this going to help with local outages? >> Who can handle it? Anybody here can answer that? >> We'll give an answer for you. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> We can hear part of your question there. Could you repeat that just so I get it exactly right? >> Right, I believe it was last week or the week before there was a large outage in the northeast Denton ballpark area and the, when I messaged about it, it was well we were chasing faults. I don't necessarily know that lingo or terminal, but I'm wondering, I see faults here and I'm wondering are these something we're purchasing to help eliminate those wide scale outages. >> This is specifically for the transmission system. The fault you're referring to is distribution. >> Okay. >> And it could assist in that if it involved the transmission system. But this is more specifically for wider area outages at a higher voltage that in fact, it covers a wider area in that it could affect several substations. But normally what the system does is isolate those faults to avoid outages. At the distribution level, you're sort of the end of the line where the power is delivered. And when you have it there, there's not an alternative to it. The system isn't looped like the transmission system is. But this one probably would not assist in that particular, it's not that intention. >> It's not, okay. All right, thank you. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. >> Okay. Anyone else? Yes, Council Member Hussband. >> Couple of thoughts. One, I just wanted to commend Denton Police Department on F . I think that was a job well done. Researching that and the data they provided was very extensive. And so I appreciate their help in that regard. Then in addition to that, I'm personally excited about Q and T, both being local providers, one in Louisville, localish. And then the printer here local for the newsletter. That new dissemination of information, I think that's going to be very positive. Bear with me. I would like someone to speak to why. I had a couple of questions on the campus theater beer sales. And that could be, I don't necessarily need to pull it. I just have a couple of questions. And then AA, I have a couple of questions there. >> Okay, we'll take why first. >> Good afternoon, my name is Laura Barons and I'm the Assistant Director for Parks and Recreation. >> Okay, so my question kind of gears around how is that managed? So 21 and up, how are they managing that? I'm just not familiar with the setup. And so I guess if you can give me a general overlay and then how they manage that component. >> So the sale of alcohol is actually regulated by the TABC , which is a state agency, and they have certain rules and regulations that vendors have to follow, vendors and merchants have to follow in that. Specifically for this event, it's my understanding that they issue wristbands at the point of sale. So they will check identification to ensure that someone is of age to purchase alcohol and issue the wristband, and then that wristband is confirmation for subsequent purchases. They can request identification at any time during, so just because you have a wristband does it guarantee you necessarily the sale of alcohol. So they can continue to ask for identification at each sale . And they can also refuse at any time the sale of alcohol for any issues that come up. >> Okay, and is it one vendor that is allowed to sale or how does that affect the other? Is everyone given an opportunity to bid and this group was, how does that work? >> That process happens exclusively outside of any city decision making. That's between the event organizer and the vendor of their choice. So the event organizer chooses the vendor that they want to use for the sale of alcohol. >> Okay, got it, thank you, that's it. >> And then you have another one? >> Yes, sir, double A. >> Afternoon, I'm Lieutenant Sam Woodden, police. I can speak to the Axon issues. >> Yes sir, thank you. I was curious, looking at the, well first, how's the data downloaded from the camera to, I know there's a storage, is it wireless download, instantaneous? >> It's not Wi-Fi, we plug into a docking bay or you can plug into a computer. It downloads direct to a cloud based storage system called evidence.com, which is managed by Axon, it is CJIS compliant through Microsoft. >> Okay, and the dock, will it be in the cars, will they have to go back to the station? >> So we have hard docking bays at the police department already, we're already using this system as a modification of an existing contract. So the officer has the opportunity to dock it at the police department, which is a much higher upload rate. Or you can log into a program called Evidence Sync on your home computer. Plug in the camera while you go to sleep or whatever and it will upload all the video direct into evidence.com that way as well. >> Okay, and then lastly, and this may not be right up your alley, so it's a five year contract, there's a one year warranty. Is there an opportunity to extend that warranty? Because my concern is, so we're paying for something three years out that- >> It's actually a five year warranty. The warranty is through the life of the contract. So if you look on the contract, there is a line item for the four year extended warranty on the quote sheet. So specifically what's listed is the weapon system, the X2. So that comes with a one year manufacturer warranty and then a four year warranty extended on that. So the weapon system will be warrantied throughout the life of that contract. The cameras are done through the TAP, which is the TASURE Assurance Program. And that warranties the camera through the life of the contract. And then twice during the contract at the two and a half and five year point, we'll get a new camera, brand new camera. Send back the old, they'll give us new latest technology product. >> Excellent, okay, very good, thank you. >> Yep. >> Okay, Council Member Gregory. >> Thank you. It's a follow up to these questions on that. Currently all of our police officers while they're on patrol do have body cameras, is that correct? >> Every sworn officer has a camera right now. >> Okay, and so is this a replacement program? >> The existing contract that we have is a replacement program for the cameras. What we've done is we've added a weapon issuance aspect to that contract. That's why we're converting to officer safety plans. So right now we're fielding two different weapon systems. One of them is going to enter a planned obsolescence phase in 2019 where they'll stop manufacturing parts for it. So we're switching to a more current weapon system. >> Okay, thank you. >> Any other questions? Thank you, appreciate it. Any other questions for clarification on the agenda item? Seeing none, we'll move on to our next agenda item, which is the work session reports. Work session 3A, receive report, hold discussion, give staff direction regarding the Department of Economic Development FY 2017-18 strategic plan. [BLANK_AUDIO] Are you all ready for me? >> Yeah, somebody, thank you. Yes, go ahead. >> Okay. >> Just need to shut that door. >> Good afternoon, I'm Caroline Booth. I'm the Director of Economic Development. And I'm really pleased to be with you today to be able to share with you our departmental strategic plan. So I'm going to go ahead and start with a little bit of background. And clearly our objective here today is for me to tell you about our plan and allow you to ask some questions at the end. The way that our departmental strategic plan was developed is we took the opportunity during this year's strategic planning and budget cycle at the city level to craft a departmental strategic plan that aligns with the city's overall plan. And it focuses on transparency, accountability, and respons iveness. And it reflects best practices for a comprehensive economic development program. One thing that we do as we have been working through the past year and looking toward what we're going to be working on this coming fiscal year. We're examining our staffing patterns and work processes to expand different job roles and improve our effectiveness and efficiency. And a couple of examples of how we've done that is one thing is that we have expanded the role of the economic development program administrator to include business support, retention, and expansion activities outside of the downtown area. She has specifically started a program for merchants in the Fry Street area and is also supporting with business retention and expansion activities across the city. And in addition, she's now going to be serving as Denton's liaison to the Texas Music Office. And you're going to be hearing some more about our activities related to that in the near future. And also as a liaison to the Texas Film Commission. We also have expanded the business development officer's role to draft and take primary responsibility for implementing an expanded and very structured business retention and expansion plan. And I'll touch on that a little bit more later, but I know some of you council members have already been invited to attend some business retention and expansion visits and all of you will be included in that process as we work through the plan. So when we began thinking about a departmental strategic plan, the first thing that we wanted to do was discuss and identify the department's core values. Because that's the foundation that underlies our work. It dictates how we interact with others and it also drives the strategies that we use to implement and achieve our goals. So I'm going to tell you what each of these things means to us and how we consider them and incorporate them into the work that we do. So we are ethical in that we are public servants and we have a duty to uphold the public's trust, be good stewards of public resources and further the public interest. We're transparent, even though the nature of our profession and our professional activities sometimes call for confidential ity in certain business matters. We believe open government is essential for effective public oversight. We are responsive in that we're quick to respond to citizens, to businesses, to elected officials or others who need assistance, support or information. We're collaborative because working together is the most effective way to set and accomplish goals. So we engage with our partners inside and outside of the city to leverage our strengths and minimize obstacles. We are community focused because Denton is really fortunate to have a diverse economy with sectors that range from manufacturing to higher education and arts to technology. We have to strive to engage with, understand and balance the needs of a diverse community of citizens with different perspectives. Finally, we are creative because we seek new and original ways to grow our economy and help keep the community thriving. So core values, they always stay the same. They're not something that changes each time you update your strategic plan. So I think it's really important to point those out and understand that our department strives for these values in everything that we do. The next thing that we want to identify in our strategic plan in the process is our goals. So we have these broad big picture items that we want to accomplish. And those categories are business development, entrepreneurship and workforce development along with community relations. And I'll tell you what those mean in context of the plan. For business development, we want to expand Denton's economy through retention and expansion of current employers as well as through the location of new businesses in our target industry sectors. As far as entrepreneurship, we want to foster Denton's thriving culture of business, technology and artistic creation and innovation by building on our higher education and community resources. For workforce development, we want to develop, attract and keep skilled and talented workers to support existing and future employers. And for community relations, we want to build relationships with Denton businesses, residents and others through outreach, education and engagement. In order to achieve our goals, we have to identify objectives or tactics that bring us closer to that goal. So each of our goals, we've identified several objectives that support the goals and then the action steps which are specific tasks that need to be completed in support of an objective. I think it's important to point out that each action step that we've identified in the plan has a deadline and a staff member who's assigned to complete it so that there 's ownership of those action steps. And we can document that we're moving through the plan as we intend to. Then finally, we have identified a significant number of performance measures for ourselves this year. There are five measures that have targets that are in the city's strategic plan. But then we've added 13 additional measures to gauge our own performance kind of internally. And we will be tracking that using an access database system that staff developed specifically for that purpose so that we can generate reports whenever we need them to make sure that we're tracking along with where we need to be. I'm going to hit a few highlights from the plan. This is not every point and I do think it's also important to point out that not every single thing that we're going to be working on is described in the plan. It's more of a general outline, but these I think are important to share with you. So for our first goal of business development, there are a couple of objectives that we have. The first one being to revise the city's economic development incentive policy and application. The application, we have completed the revision of that. And what we wanted to do there was make sure that we were capturing the appropriate information that we need to analyze a potential incentive request or the potential fiscal and economic benefits that a project could bring to the community. So our old application didn't align with all of the data points that we need to be able to put into our new analysis software. >> We made that update and that's a relatively minor change , but it's important to make sure that we're getting all of the information that we need. >> We do have a question. >> Yes. >> Councilmember Riggs. >> Just on the revision of the incentive policy, will that come back to council? >> Absolutely, yes. That was what I was going to clarify. We have been internally at a staff level doing some research and comparisons with other communities that are of similar size and have similar kinds of programs. As well as looking at, we have an overall incentive policy, but we also have a based aircraft incentive policy. And we have an economic development investment fund policy and they're all separate. So we'd like to combine those. We want to make sure that we're addressing things that we know are not ideal about our policy and bring you back some suggestions for things that we think would be improvements. And then start that conversation so that we can understand from the council perspective what you all would like to see . And I'm imagining that that's probably going to be within the next four to six weeks that we would have an item for you on that. >> Okay, thank you. >> Welcome. So we also have under business development to enhance the existing business retention and expansion program. Business retention and expansion can range from very formal to informal. And for the last couple of years, we've been executing that in a little bit more of an informal way. But as you heard me mention earlier, we have developed an initial draft of a plan that will take us through visiting businesses of all different sizes across all different sectors within the community. We have a very extensive form that has been developed not to take with us and read and check off while we're meeting with people, but to kind of guide the conversation. And we're developing processes for documenting action items post visit. And we're digitizing some files that have been collected over time from historic business visits. So we're getting a little bit more organized around that. And as I said earlier, you all will be invited to be a part of business retention visits as we go forward. Entrepreneurship, one of the objectives that we have there is to encourage business participation in the Shop Denton program, which Small Business Saturday and National Small Business Week are actually components of that. And if there are any of you who aren't familiar, SHOP stands for Shop Here On Purpose. And that's intended as an educational campaign to keep sales tax dollars local. And that program was developed by Economic Development several years ago, and we're reviving it, trying to expand it. And you did have in your backup the communications and marketing plan that we've put together in support of recruitment of more merchants to participate in the programs. And sharing more information about how to shop local and special promotions related to that, so that we can get that out to our citizens and support local businesses that way. Goal three, workforce development. This is a critically important component of a comprehensive economic development program. And it involves a lot of collaboration and coordination between our workforce training partners, at NCTC, our universities, TWU, and UNT. As well as with the business community to identify where they're having gaps in filling their employment needs. And also where they think their employment needs are going to be in the future. So economic development staff have spent the last year pulling together a group of those folks. And we're calling it the Denton Workforce Development Consortium. And those people are going to meet formally once a quarter. And all those meeting dates have been established for the coming year. And that's an opportunity for round tables with businesses in certain sectors to exchange information with workforce development and coordination folks. And this is a place where it's natural for us to serve as a connector between these different groups and parts of the community. So we've seen some very positive outcomes from that activity. >> Question? >> Yes. >> So in that list you mentioned the colleges and I didn't hear DISD. Like we have the Advanced Technology Center. >> That's my fault. DISD is a part of that as well. And so are Workforce Solutions of North Texas and some of our state level workforce coordinating. It's a good comprehensive list. That was my fault for not mentioning the ISD. Okay, and then finally under community relations, we decided that it was going to be really important for us to do some proactive communication as a department to share more information with people about what economic development is and how it's done here in Dent on. So two things that I wanted to make sure to do this year was to contribute a column to the Denton Business Chronicle . And to work with our Public Communications Office to create a video series for DTV and YouTube. So that we could kind of translate those articles from the Business Chronicle into short, two and a half minute videos that we could air and put up on YouTube. And what those things do is they focus on some basic components or practices of economic development. But then we back them up using examples from Denton specifically to kind of tie it to what people are actually seeing happen on the ground. To wrap this up, the key points that I want to leave you with are these. The department is committed to transparency, accountability , responsiveness, collaboration, and efficiency. And the plan that I've shared with you reflects a comprehensive economic development program that focuses on business development, entrepreneurship, workforce development, and community relations. And before I take questions, I just want to say that I've been in this role for about a year. And it's great to be able to stand up here in front of you and say that we've worked through a lot of things. I think our department is in a good place. I'm happy to present this plan to you and I appreciate each and every one of you who have reached out to me with your questions and have spent time with me learning more about what we're doing in economic development. And sharing your thoughts about how we should move forward. So I appreciate all of you for doing that. And I'm glad to take questions. >> Any questions? Yes, Mayor Pro Tem. >> So thank you for the presentation. Currently, we have an economic development incentive policy . So is that going to be changing as well? And if so, what is that process going to look like? >> So under the business development goal, that is one of the things that we're going to be bringing back to you within the next four to six weeks. There's an overarching policy that has to be adopted every two years per state law if the city is going to utilize tax abatement as incentives. So the last policy was adopted in 2016 with relatively no changes from the 2014 policy. And we're looking at making some pretty significant suggestions to you all for your consideration for changes as well as combining those other two policies so that it's one overarching umbrella. >> Okay, great, thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Any other questions? >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Thank you, Caroline, for that presentation. I look forward to the ongoing discussions. >> Thank you. >> We'll go on to agenda item 3B. Receive a report and hold discussion, give staff direction regarding the credit and collection policy of the city utility system. Good afternoon, mayor, council, city manager. I'm Tiffany Thompson, the customer service manager. And this afternoon I'm going to be going over our credit and collection policies for customer service and utilities. So a little bit of background, in November of 2010, council approved the ordinance 2010-292. And this was a direct response to the consultant group that came in and reviewed a lot of our business processes. And they specifically focused on credit and collections for us. And what they found is based off of our small utility size that we had a rather large, uncollectible debt rate with this, it was $1.4 million in fiscal year 08 and 09. And the contributing factors to this was a lack of effective credit screening. We didn't have proper deposits on accounts and just overall ineffective collection efforts. And so the purpose of the ordinance was to reduce that bad debt and also to instill those effective credit and collection policies that would be more fair for the city and the citizens. And so as of fiscal year 2015-16, our uncollectible debt has reduced down to $536,000 at this time. And so this presentation is just going to go over the results of that ordinance and then also just give you an overview of what the policy is. And so how I like to set this up is talk about active collections first, how a customer comes into the utility system, how they establish tenure with us, programs that we offer, and then inactive accounts. Then that's when it goes into that uncollected debt status and then some programs that we have coming on board. And so first for our credit and collection timeline for active collections, on day one we're going to issue a bill. On day 16, the payment's going to be due. Day 25, we're going to give you a proactive friendly reminder call letting you know that we haven't received a payment on the account. On day 28 to 29, a late fee and overdue interest would be applied to the account. On day 30, that's going to be the second bill notification letting you know at this point you have a pass-through balance and it's subject for disconnection. Then we're going to provide a courtesy call on day 34 letting you know that the account's subject for disconnect ion. And then on day 37, the account would be disconnected. After that, on day 44, if there isn't a payment or contact to us to reconnect services, the account will be closed and that final bill will generate. So I'm going to focus on what our credit screenings are as a customer comes into the utility system and then as they establish tenure with us. >> Tiffany, we have a question. >> Yes. >> Mary Pro Tem. >> Can you go back to the last slide, please? >> So how does this timeline compare to before we retained the consultant? Is this timeline different from how we did things before? >> Yes. >> Where we had the higher collections outstanding? >> It's shrunk down just a little bit and I have the before and after that I can provide after this. Whenever we come back, after we get your feedback and discussion, we can provide what it did look like previously to this. >> So can you just summarize? We don't have to bring it back. >> Okay. >> If you can just summarize it. >> It's a shorter time frame. What they found is we had, we were allowing too much time and then we weren't able to be more proactive with it. And so the consultant had benchmarked with multiple cities to see what would be the best way to approach this. And so it really, it was shrunk down in essence. >> So it was like 30 days and then it went down to 15 or 16 ? >> I believe it was about 45, it was closer, a little over 40 days I think when we did the disconnection process. And so we took, I think it was between three and four days that we shrunk everything down. >> Okay. >> So not too drastic, but drastic enough to make an impact. >> Thank you. >> Did that answer your question? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Council Member Briggs. >> So I have several comments, but I'm going to hold them. My one question about this slide is when the non-paid disconnect at day 37, at that point does the customer have to pay a reconnection fee? >> They do not have to pay any reconnection fee to establish services. That's all billed to them on the next bill if they have to be charged a deposit. >> Well, they're charged for it then is what? >> There's a delinquent service fee of $46. That's because the account went into delinquent status. So that's the fee that would be charged on the next month's bill. If they called after one o'clock, just to kind of backtrack a little bit for you. If they call us before one o'clock to get services reconnected, we're going to get that turned back on same day for them. If they want it guaranteed reconnect and it's after one o' clock, like in the afternoon, there's a fee, a same day reconnection charge, that's a $61 charge. So most of our customers are only getting that $46 delin quent service fee on there. But again, if they want that guaranteed same day service and it's later in the afternoon, then there's that additional fee. Does that answer your question? >> Council member, ask this. >> Following up on what you just said, I'm curious, what is the difference? Obviously when this was conducted, there was no electronic meters. So now with the electronic meters, or the digital meters, it's the disconnect and reconnect process has changed, I'm assuming. >> It has changed slightly. I can't talk to all of it. But what I can talk to is as far as not all of the meters had the disconnect color, that means that it could be remotely reconnected from that. So they're still implementing all of those at this time. And so we may have to come back with additional information on that, because I don't want to misspeak to that. But when this was put in place, you're correct, that wasn't an option. We didn't have that available. Did you want to speak to that? >> We can certainly come back with more information on that . When the first wave of that technology was implemented, those new meters did not have the connection and disconnect ion components to them. As we're replacing them and getting into the next phase of that technology, all of those have them. But we can come back with some of the percentages that the meters are, and deployed across the city, how many of those have it versus not have it. But it's certainly not all of them. >> So maybe I missed that. So we rolled out the new- >> Smart meters. >> Yeah, the smart meters. >> So I'm not understanding how we have smart meters that were installed that don't have something that the- >> Something, some of those have been, were started to be installed several years ago. So some of them are smarter than others, I should say. >> Okay. >> Some of them have, as the technology has progressed, they've had more components, more features that have been added to them as they've come online and began manufacturing. So the initial ones that we have is, what I'm trying to communicate is the initial ones that we had, they put in place several years ago, they didn't have those features at the time. Now certainly the ones that we're implementing now for new customers, for ones that have to be replaced for whatever reason, it does have that feature. I just don't know the breakdown of the ones that have it that don't. >> Good. >> And I'll certainly provide that to you and the council. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> Just on that, along with those percentages and breakdown s, could you also give us a percentage of how often someone physically has to go out to an address and- >> We can certainly do that and give you the statistics of, I guess what we're looking at is the labor involved to go out and make a disconnect. What's the process to do that? What other components of the accounts are there too for water, waste water? So it's not just electric service. >> And do we charge the same price for the people who have the smart meters, to the really smart meters and the ones that don't? I mean, that seems, if we're justifying the- >> I'm not sure. We can certainly look at that and see. >> The charge. >> I'm not sure of the answer to that. >> Thank you. >> All right. >> You got another question? Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. >> Thank you. And a note, you don't have to speak to it now, but I would like to understand that disconnect policy, right? Because my understanding is the process is everything's disconnected and then reconnected. My concern would be if a homeowner steps out and says, hey, to the city employee, I just paid the bill online, maybe it didn't register. Is that employee allowed to call in, check, do something while on site versus proceeding with disconnects and then coming back and reconnecting at a later time? And so that's just what that process is. It's a workflow, if you will, whatever the title is for how those disconnects are managed is what I would like to know. >> We can get that process for sure. I do know that they work with those situations if someone comes out and does that. And they call our office and I personally get phone calls at nighttime from dispatch with the customer and try to make sure that we're taking care of them whenever they reach out to us. So we can definitely get that for you. >> So I have a question and it's back on the last slide. So if you're going to address this later on, just wave me off. Because obviously this is a timeline that is sort of the policy or the procedure. So on, let's say, before day 37, at what point does what have to get paid to avoid the day 37 disconnect? In other words, they might be one bill in arrears according to this timeline. Then the second bill comes out, so you've got a past due and a current due. And so, and you might address it later on in the presentation, but certainly when you come back. What are the different nuances and ways that customer service works with a utility customer that says, okay, no, I don't have all the past due. I have some, what are some of the parameters on it? because there's got to be something that guides the decision making on how much has to be paid in order to avoid the disconnect. It's just $5, it's a 10, it's a past due. So I think that's going to be really important as we continue to look at the policy as it is today. And if there's any changes that are desired, how we actually handle those sort of case by case situations. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And short answer. And I do have some additional information on that. At this point in this timeline, on day 37, it is just that past due balance that it's being disconnected for. So what they have in arrears at that time. And then I'll talk about payment arrangements. >> Okay, sure, no, you bet. All right, thank you very much. >> So prior to the ordinance, any new customer coming into our utility system, everyone was charged a deposit. And it was a flat rate of $150. There wasn't any differences. Everyone was charged a deposit when they came in. And so what the ordinance provided us is being able to assess customers coming into the system through a credit screening process. And more importantly, to identify who's coming into the system, meaning that we're verifying their identity. And that's for us to be compliant to make sure that we're curbing any type of identity theft with that. And so the two prong approach to that is verifying who's coming into the utility system and then assessing how they may be a paying customer for us. And so 70% of our customers are good or fair customers. And then 30% of our customers would be asked to pay that deposit. And I'm going to talk about ways to avoid the deposit and also get that deposit waived here in the next slide. So this thing customers, what we want to do is make sure that we're- >> I think we got a question. Council Member Riggs. So are you rating the customers on just the utility debt, their utility? Or are you rating customers on their credit score for other credit, all credit? >> Good question. We use online utility exchange and what they do is they partner with Experian. And so they use Experian data. And in addition to data from industry specific, like utility industry, looking at how they pay their bills, if they've left anything outstanding with other utility providers. And then it gives one score to say this is the assessment of risk for this customer. And when that happens, we do provide what we call an adverse letter to let them know what that score was, what contributed to influencing that score, and then they can get a free credit report based off of that. It gives them all of the information. It's a two page letter for that, so they get that additional information. >> Okay, I have some issues with this, but go ahead. >> So for existing customers, as they establish tenure with us, I want to see how they're doing. And 86% of our customers pay regular on time, and 11% of our customers, we want to make sure that we have appropriate deposit coverage for them on that. And so in regards to deposits and assessments, prior to the ordinance, we did not have any proactive or set policy on how we refund deposits. And so if you did pay a deposit coming into the utility system, it would stay on there until the account finaled out. And so what this ordinance also provided us was a set time frame to make sure that we're refunding deposits as well. So for January 2016 to present, we've refunded 14,063 deposits on an account. And 72% of those deposits refunded on the final bill, meaning we needed to keep them on the account until that customer left the utility system. And 57% of those customers actually had their entire final two bills paid with that deposit. That means that they left City of Denton and didn't have to pay anything additional because the deposit ended up covering those two months because we're in a post paid environment with that. And so the city currently has, 21% of our customer base has deposits on the account. And just to go back, sorry I skipped around, we did deposit refunds of almost 4,000 accounts on active accounts, meaning that we assessed them and saw that they had good payment history and so we wanted to make sure to give those deposits back. Because what we're trying to create through this policy and ordinance is a balance. We don't want too much deposit, we don't want too little deposit, we want just enough to cover our customer base in here. And so with deposits, when you're coming in as an existing customer, there is ways to waive a deposit. And so you can provide a letter of credit, and this is in regardless if you had a credit score come back and we're asking for a deposit. There's other options for our customers. So they can provide us a letter of credit from their prior utility saying they were in good standing. They can get a co-signer where someone co-signs on their account for them. And then also they can set up on a draft with us to waive the deposit as well. So if none of those options work for them, we do offer deposit payment arrangements and that's available for all of our customers. >> Do you have a question? >> Yes, go ahead. >> Are you speaking to just new customers, new deposits that new customers are required at this point? >> When they come into the utility system, they can get the letter of credit and the co-signer. But the other option on the draft, if someone's assessed a deposit or a new customer coming in, we offer them that option. If you will go on draft, we can waive the deposit to try and help them because it's going to be paying on time if they go on draft. >> Right. This is new customers. What do you do for current customers? >> Current customers? So we can offer the draft. Are you saying for when they get assessed a deposit? >> Right, right. >> Okay. So when they get assessed a deposit, if they reach out to us, we can give them their options, which the first option is we can give them a deposit payment arrangement or if they're working through a specific situation, which we have those come up. So there are specific things specifically that their family 's going through, what's happened on the account. There's certain criteria that I put in the backup of the review of things that we look at prior to adding a deposit on the account. So did they just recently get assistance on the account? Are they about to have an event fall off their account, which would make them go higher in the ranking with that? So there's certain criteria that I had previously listed, but they can get a deposit payment arrangement as well. If that's also an option for them. So we can split the deposit out over three months for them. We've done longer depending on their circumstance, so they have the deposit payment arrangement as well. >> So question on that clarification. So you have for people walking in, signing up for a new account, let's say a student's coming in from out of town to come to North Texas and they got to sign up for utilities. They can either get a letter of credit from their old utility provider if they had one, saying they're in good standing, that weighs the deposit. They can get a co-signer, guardian, parent, whoever would be, and then you've got to run the traps on the co-signer to see how they are. Then number three was the draft, is that correct? So now if you're dealing with an existing customer, let's say, because my understanding is if someone gets into some difficulty paying their bill, they might be assessed an additional deposit. Or if they're an existing customer that's changing accounts , they're coming in to open a new account with a different address, I'd say. So you have the ability of a payment deposit arrangement, spread it out over three months. Does the drafting apply in this second situation as well, that if you're able to draft their account, does that waive the deposit for them in a situation like that? >> Yeah, on the draft option, we work with all scenarios with that. >> Okay. >> Because we're really trying to help them with something that can assist the customer right then and not have the deposit on there if those other options are not viable for them. >> And is a co-signer available on the second kind of customer situation that we're talking about now? You're not a new customer coming in, but you're one that's existing and for whatever reason either an additional deposit or something has been required because of maybe a late pay or a delin quent pay or something like that. >> We'll accept the co-signer on there because per ordinance says that that's an option for us, so that's definitely something that we honor. >> Okay, I'm just trying to understand what the differences are, if any, between those particular types of scenarios, which I think is what she might have been getting at. Okay, thank you. >> And then in regards to deposit payment arrangements, in that same time frame we did about 3,100 deposit payment arrangements for customers. So our customers do utilize that option with us. An additional item that occurred is per council direction, we increased the late fee from $10 to $20. The direction on that was they didn't think the $10 was enough of an influencer to affect the behavior of the customer with that. And so in 2011 the deposit did, pardon me, the late fee did increase from $10 to $20. And as soon as that was implemented, the immediate reduction in delinquents accounts went down 29% from month to month. And since 2010 it's reduced down by 34% more of our customers are paying on time. In addition, our customer base has increased by 9% since this time, so it's reduced drastically even though our customer base has increased. So discontinuance of service, this is absolutely the last thing we want to have happen for our customers. So we really want to make sure that we're giving them options and opening up that dialogue for that. But if we haven't got a payment on the account or customers made a payment arrangement with us at day 37, the discontin uance of service does occur. And prior to disconnect, the customer's notified on four occasions from us. And that's with the first bill, that friendly reminder call , the second bill notification at day 30, and then the day 34 for courtesy call. And I want to note on the two different calls that we call out, we do press one to pay whenever we're reaching out to the customer. So you can press one to pay now. And we get a 30% response rate off of those two phone calls whenever we call out to the customers. 30% of our customers pay just based off of that phone call. >> Is that right? >> So some of them wait for the phone call to make the payment on that. >> So is that, I'm sorry. So first of all, that's surprising to me. I think that's good. But is it, so electronic pay, meaning they can pay with a credit card or electronic check? >> They're right there over the phone. >> Okay. >> Whenever you get the call from us, you can press one and it'll take you right through the IVR to pay whatever means you want it to. >> Yes, Councilmember Briggs. >> Does somebody else have a question? >> I don't know, did I hear something over here? I'm sorry, Mayor Pro Tem. >> So typically on a bill, there will be the electricity portion, water, wastewater, drainage, and then the trash and recycling. And then all the sales taxes and any type of overdue charges. So if the bill is late, when it says that pay immediately to avoid disconnection, are we talking about pay the electricity portion immediately to avoid? >> No, it's all utility. It's whatever utilities are represented on that bill. >> Okay, I guess that's the part that kind of confuses me because let's say your total bill is $300, the electricity portion of it is $100. Can you say I want to pay the electricity portion of it and then I'm going to pay my recycling and whatever else later? >> If a customer calls in and says I can pay $100 to use your example, then we can put the rest in a payment arrangement. We don't break it down and buy utilities, it's whatever is represented on the bill. But to your point, we do break it down if they say I can only pay this amount, this is what I can do, then that's what we work with. >> So is that disconnection language, is it just electricity? I mean, it would seem like the water and wastewater should be disconnected that day as well. >> Yes, well, everything's subject for, whenever it's all utilities, they go out there and the electric portion is turned off in water with that. So it is all utilities, but drainage, there isn't anything necessary to disconnect with that. >> Or the trash, for instance, the trash pickup ends. >> Exactly. >> Okay, so disconnection is all of the utilities. >> It is all of the utilities. One of the things that I will note is most of the time, whenever they do go out there, it is electric because obviously the customer's going to respond and make the payment to turn it back on. And so water usually is actually left on. I'm not misstating that, right? Water is usually left on, unless it's a water only account. Then obviously, then the water would be disconnected. Because really, we're just trying to get them to come in, open up a dialogue with us, make a payment with that. So a lot of times they will still have water, if it's all utilities, but if it's a water only account, then the water . >> Okay, thank you. >> Council Member Riggs. >> So while we're here on this page, I have an actual bill from a constituent. They sent me its current bill. And just to kind of plug in these numbers, right here on your screen, it doesn't show the deposit or the late fee or anything. So here's just some numbers for the citizens. This bill last month was for $213.52. So this individual was late and didn't make that payment on time. So then there was a $20 assessed late fee, a $345 deposit, which makes, and then there's overdue interest along with the late payment charge, which makes the bill go from last month $213 to $778.30. So my question is, how do we expect our citizens who can barely pay a $200 bill, pay a $780 bill? >> Can I ask a question on that? So you've got a past due balance of $213.52. What were the current charges that were accrued the second billing period? >> So it says here, current charges due by 10/27, $544.78. The immediate, to avoid disconnection, is $233.52. But so that $778 has to come. I mean, I know that the 233 can be paid, but we're just adding levels of more stress and more money to somebody who's already having an issue paying their bill. And this is where my passion comes from on this. And so I wanted this presentation so we could actually get this out in the open and talk about it. >> And I think it's important to do that, but also over the many years I've been on council, I've received bills and things such as that. And first of all, let me say, when I've gotten those, customer service has been very responsive in providing me the facts. And if they can work something out, they, so I have a, and obviously this is all confidential information. What's your, so I don't want to know any addresses, any names, because this is all confidential. I can't even, you can't pull utility information for anybody else's account even if you're a renter to understand the, you might get the average bill, but you can 't get the exact bill. So on this one again, you're saying that that, and so the deposit, which is the $345, so you've got a $213. Are you familiar with this situation? Okay, so you know- >> Not that specific, but I understand. >> I understand what she's saying. >> Okay, all right, I just didn't know if we could get the, so you've got the numbers, you've got a past due balance. You've got a current due balance. You've got $20 late fee, and then you have a deposit amount that, apparently an additional deposit assessment. So that seems to be where it's driving up the amount due. So I want to just ask a couple questions about, because if they've got a past due amount and they've got a current due amount, those are all services that have already been rendered. Utility bills are sent out in arrears, I believe. In other words, the services have already been obtained and we're billing for services in arrears. Is that correct? >> Yeah, we're a post-paid environment. >> Yes, okay, that's the terminology, I guess. So at what point, because if you just get an assessed in the late fee of $20 if you're late, I don't think you get assessed a new deposit or an additional deposit requirement. At what point does an additional deposit is triggered? And number two, how is that amount calculated? And if you have something coming in later on in the slides, but I want to understand because the numbers are staggering . So we need to understand exactly all the facts and the processes behind how these kinds of things happen. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate, Councilwoman, your comments with that. I echo your concerns for sure. So to answer your question first, my hopes would be that customer reaches out to us and says, I'm struggling, how can you help? And let us craft a solution for that customer. Second, to Mayor Watts, whenever they get that bill and they have the past due balance on there, that's for the item in arrears, the post-paid environment. And if that deposit's showing on there, what I wanted to highlight on that left of the screen is, this is what the second bill looks like, some of the terminology where we're saying pay me to avoid disconnect ion in those two areas. But the special message is what I want to highlight here. If a customer has had an event on their account, like a late fee, overdue interest, maybe a return check, those are the things that we're looking at to continually to assess our customers and what's going on. So if something like that does occur on their account, we provide that special message on there to let them know this has occurred. If we don't have adequate deposit coverage, then one may be assessed. And so the customer prior to getting this bill would have been getting those special messages from us, letting them know that this is going to happen if we continue to have those behaviors on the account. >> We've got Council Member Gregory and then Mayor Pro Tem er. >> Well, the example given was from a person who was not able to pay their bill. And I'm wondering with your, the information that you collect, how many of the folks that have a pass to amount, it's not because they weren't able to, it's because they simply forgot or they overlooked it or they decided to put money into other priorities that month instead. Do you know those? >> I honestly couldn't, I don't think I could answer that question specifically. I don't know what happened with that customer, I think going back, opening that dialogue with us. I just lost my job or this has happened. We can work with that. So again, my hopes is that they would contact us so we can let them know what options that they had at that point. >> The reason I ask that is because I saw in the backup that in some recent months, the average was I think a little over 700 disconnects a month. And that's out of 50,000 plus customers. >> Almost 59,000. >> Okay, and of those 700 some odd disconnects a month, 98% got reconnected. >> Yes. >> So of that 98% then, do you know how many got reconnect ed because they just said, here's the money and how many went on some kind of a payment plan? >> We have on for our payment plans, I have statistics on how many payment arrangements whenever we do offer the payment arrangements, 72, and this is prior to discontinuance of service because that's what we're trying to avoid here. 72% of those are successful. I mean, they call us, they get a payment arrangement, and they pay it. And then it's the other 20% that may default for whatever various reasons you could just explain with that, but we don't ask why didn't you pay? We don't want to get into that. >> Yeah, well I realized that, but I figured that some people just might volunteer that information. They're working with you all and that you all might keep some kind of statistics on that. But you've answered my question, thank you. >> You bet. >> Council member Briggs. >> So back to this, it says that once the account has been billed, a service deposit, any payment that is made goes to the deposit rather than the bill first. >> That's correct. So once the deposit's been assessed on the account, it'll go to the deposit first to try to secure that as well. Sorry. >> So on here, if it says pay immediately $233, if that is paid, then that would go to the $345 deposit and then there would still be the amount owed. >> So when it's a past due, that past due balance is going to go to the past due balance first. I'm going to clarify that with Autumn. She's over revenue assurance. >> It says here on the bill, it goes to the deposit. >> Well, yeah, and if you're going to speak, we'll need you to come to the front. Yes, yeah, sorry. >> I want to make sure I answer your question. >> Because we're being televised and so that's the only way that the public can hear you. >> So Autumn Perkins is our revenue assurance coordinator who oversees all of our credit and collections with that. So I want to make sure I answer your question correctly. >> Council member Briggs, the actual, the payment will go to the deposit. However, we do have measures where we monitor those and we don't disconnect their services if they do pay that past due balance. To ensure that they are interrupted in error for that first time that they've seen that deposit. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So going back to payment arrangements, what we offer with that. So if they contact us prior to discontinuance of service, we can offer payment arrangements and work with them. And we did almost 4,900 payment arrangements during this time frame that's listed above with that. So with the ordinance also, we wanted to make sure we had clear payment expectations for our customers and channels. And so this is the back of our bill that we have right now. And we have over two dozen payment locations for customers to make payments. We have contracts with MoneyGram, Fidelity Express, we have a 24/7 kiosk now, a walk up drop box, drive up drop box. And most recently we launched a new payment portal where customers can actually set up for reoccurring payments with their credit or debit card that was in an option a couple months ago. And also be able to schedule payments. So if it's today and they know they get paid on Thursday, they can go in today and schedule a future date payment where they didn't have that option before. And I'm sorry. >> You're probably losing your track of, I hate interrupting you while you're in the middle of something. I apologize, but I'm going to go ahead and interrupt you. Okay, you mentioned something that caught my attention. You said that there were 4,900 payment arrangements, was that right? >> Yes, ma'am. >> And that's out of 59,000 customers. >> Yeah, during that time frame, January 2016 to September 2017. >> So okay, we're looking at like 8%, maybe 8% or so of people who, I mean if we're honest, they need assistance with how they 're paying their bills. And then I was looking at your slides, I went ahead on your slides, sorry. But you mentioned Interfaith Ministries gets $86,000 of assistance to distribute to people in need. >> Yes, ma'am. >> And I just did an average. The average amount, and please correct my numbers if I'm wrong, it looked like it was like in the 250 range for most people. We're going to get like $170 to $300 of assistance. >> When they get assistance from Interfaith? >> Yes. >> Yeah, so I just took that number, I called it 250 because it's, I don't know, round. And I applied it to the 4,900 payment arrangements. And that's only 344 people that were able, I'm assuming the same people that were on payment arrangements got help from Interfaith or there's some overlap there. >> It can be definitely the same people in that pool. >> Kind of lumping them together. But I mean, I guess it seems like there's a real need for assistance. Because we have about 8% of our population that's not able to pay regularly. And at the same time, we're only providing help to maybe 300 or 350 people by virtue of our plus one program. So. >> And I have additional information on that too. >> Okay, yeah. >> In the presentation? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay, good. >> Thank you. >> No, it's a very good question. Thank you. But going back to our new payment portal that we had launched, the new added functionality. And I know during budget discussions, setting up on electronic billing was something that came up. And we've actually increased from 18 to 21% of customers going on electronic billing. It's gone up 11% just last month. So it's easier to set up on those functions. And previously, our payment portal that we had, or where you could log in to look at consumption and bills, we only had about 6,300 registered users in the two months that this has been live. We have almost 12,000 registered customers. So people are enjoying the added functionality and features with that. So we want to continue to be progressive in our payment options and what we offer our customers. And so now shifting to uncollectible debt, this is when the account becomes inactive. We deem uncollectible debt at day 180. So we do have a different timeline for this. So our final bill is generated, day 16 is when that final bill is due. On day 33, we do a proactive phone call to the customer, letting them know about that final balance. We have a 37% response rate in payment for our customers with that notification. And then we do, at day 40, a collection letter. And we have a 33% response rate for that collection letter, letting them know that there's a bill still outstanding and to contact us or make payment. Because again, we will work with customers on payment arrangements as well for this. So day 60 to 119, we call the customer and specifically with the ones that are over a $500 balance to let them know that at day 120, that's going to be sent to the collection agency. And then finally, at day 180, we do write off the account and deem it uncollectible debt. And so the ordinance did provide a proactive collections and write off process with that. And you can see how that's influenced the debt over the years. And we, sorry. >> So that chart says that after this program was put into place, that the amount of uncollected debt, uncollected payments has dropped significantly? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Have we seen a significant increase in cutting off service? >> I do have, I'd send the backup, pardon me. We had a couple years where the disconnections of service did go down because it's weather contingent. So if we have a really hot summer, which we did a couple years, you're going to see a drastic drop in that. We don't have a significant drop in the disconnects. It's pretty on par for what it was with that. So we do still have the disconnected accounts. But as far as how they're paying and then the uncollectible debt was the most influenced. >> So this is important for me because before the new policies went into place, we had about the same percentage of disconnects as we did after the new policies went into place. >> Yeah, our delinquent accounts for the late fees went down. I wanted to pull that back up real fast on that so I can answer your question. Okay, so in 0809, and this is in the backup for what we provided you, we had about 8700 accounts that were disconnected on a monthly basis. And currently we're at 9300 is the difference. But again, our customer base has increased by 9% with that. So that's the differences from then to now. So I guess it would be a small drop if you based it off of customer base increase with that. >> Okay, thank you. >> Thank you. So uncollectible debt, we use in-house resources to make sure we try to reduce the number of accounts that go to the collection agency. We reduce those accounts by 87% prior to going to collections. because again, the intent is not to send these to collections. We want to work with the customers and get payment or arrangement prior to doing that. And so in addition to making sure that we're offering payment arrangements and options to our customers, we want to make sure that there's a dedicated program for customers to seek funding and additional assistance. And so the city does have the plus one program, the prevent loss of utility services, where we allocate $100,000 and interfaith ministries overse es the contract for that. And $14,000 of that goes to administrative costs. And then $86,000 is used for the funding of the families. And that funding did increase from 10, 11. And so that's when it did increase. And so we've been able to assist more families with that. And for fiscal year 16, 17, we did just get the results. We ended up helping 231 families. I didn't have that at the time of this presentation, but that's where we ended up with this fiscal year. So 231 families were assisted through that program. So one of the, sorry. >> Is plus one voluntary for people who pay into the system , or is that just what we allocate? >> That's what we allocate. >> So yeah, you don't sign up for it on your electric bill, or you do? >> Yes, so the customers can make donations on that. They can sign up on their bill. We get about $650 a month from our customer donations with that. >> Okay, but most of it is just a budget item from the utility system. >> Yes sir, most of it, yeah. >> Okay. >> Because previously we were just relying on the customer donations and it wasn't enough for the need that was present. So with this we wanted to open up conversations with plus one to find out when customers do go out to them, why do they get denied, or how many get denied. And so we found 88% of the customers who go to interfaith ministries for assistance do get denied. And we wanted to find out why, and 50% are denied because of a criteria that we have in the contract saying that you can't get assistance more than once in a 12 month period. There is a caveat to that saying unless there's an extreme circumstance, but interfaith has taken a kind of a hard stance with that to try to help more families. But that's an opportunity that we can address. And then additionally, 50% are denied because the applicant doesn't show up for the appointment. They no longer need assistance or they don't have the proper documentation. They don't provide that to that. So those are the reasons why an applicant does get denied. Did you have a question? >> Well, yeah, I mean, this is really great and this helps the people that are really in need with very extreme circumstances, but there are people who are in the middle who aren't in extreme circumstances, who just struggle daily to make their payments and pay their bills. And they won't necessarily qualify for certain assistance programs. >> Depending on, there's criterion. Some other things I'm going to talk about later on is gle aning your feedback from this discussion, because we have the opportunity to shape what that criteria is through these discussions. And it isn't necessarily that there is always an extreme circumstance that's going on, but maybe they just genuinely need help. And the program does help with that as long as they meet that established criteria with that. So we do have an opportunity to address some of the things that you're talking about. Did that answer your question? Let's see here. So in discussions with interfaith ministries, there's two specific opportunities that we can address. We're assisting families more than once in that 12 month period. And then also there's a portion of their criteria that states that they have to be there at least six months before they can get services. And so again, I think we can address that and be able to help customer regardless of tenure at address. And the interfaith ministries contract is expiring December of this year. We have a six month option to extend that out. So that'll give us an opportunity to incorporate your feedback and the public utility board's feedback into those criteria that we spoke about with it. >> Tiffany, there are other organizations that do help with utility payments outside of the plus one program. I think giving hope Inc. can provide either rental assistance and maybe utilities. I don't know, but are there other programs that you're aware of that people can go to for different types of needs , one of them being utilities? Is this what we're looking at right here? >> It is. >> You did a really good job getting this to my next slide. I appreciate that. >> I read the backup. >> Thank you. So I did want to note, take some time to let you know about other agencies that we partner with that aren't specifically funded through the city. But that we do have a very close relationship with. This is not an all inclusive list, but these are the ones we partner with the most to make sure that they have the proper documentation and understanding of the customer needs. And so we had over almost 1200 families be assisted through these various help agencies for a total of almost $150,000 this fiscal year. So these are other resources that we make sure that our customers are aware of in addition to the plus one program. >> Okay, so let me make sure I understand this slide. So what I'm seeing on this slide is that if someone, that customer service, when I'm reading this slide, works with these agencies that are listed here. That says, okay, somebody's come to one of these agencies and say we need some help. And instead of giving them the money to pay you, they pay you directly. >> Yes, they pay the city directly. They'll call us and say, or they'll send us an email that can be through various channels and say, I'm going to help Mayor Watts on his utility account for $200. We call that a pledge. We go in there and document the system because we want to make sure there isn't any interruption of service. >> Right. >> The customer knows what's going on. So we have that earmarked for them to make sure that they have their power utility still on while we wait for that payment. >> So this 1200 is not including the ones from the plus one . >> No, sir. >> So it's really, actually what I think is the better paradigm is that the entire community is involved, as we see from this list and this number of people. There are very many different agencies that people can go to other than Interfaith. I mean, Interfaith is 200, what did you say, 13? >> 231 for this fiscal year. >> And this is almost four or five times that amount. Okay, great. That's wonderful. I think that's fantastic, just the compassion of our entire community. So thank you, that's good information. >> Thank you. So in addition to working with our customers through payment arrangements, making sure they know the resources that are available to them. We want to seek out other ways for customers to be able to manage their utilities. And so a program that's coming online is a prepaid utilities. This is a pay as you go program. And it's really going to shift the conversation with our customers. They will not have to pay deposits or interest or late fees . There's no impending due dates with this. It is a genuinely a pay as you go model with that. And so it's going to give them greater awareness and control of their account. And also help with conservation and just visibility to what 's going on with their account. So again, we're testing in an integration phase right now with anticipated go live of May of 2018. I do want to highlight the left screen. This is Rita's account. She's in the audience over here. She's our system and operations administrator. She's on prepaid right now. We're testing all the different scenarios that are going on . So right now her account is subject for disconnection. So I will give you $5 after this meeting, Rita, I promise. So it's letting her know that you make a minimum payment of $4.59 to avoid disconnection. Well, I can do $5. I can do $10. That the smaller amounts are going to be more manageable for our customers. And also something interesting with Rita's account is she had a balance owing on her account because she was previously on postpaid. And she had a $200 balance and we said, let's put you on prepaid. We'll take that $200 balance that you have on your account and put it in what we call a debt recovery module. And so this $183, that's the remaining debt that she has. And so a portion of every payment that she makes is going to go down to lessening that debt. And so she's never going to incur new debt with that. And so what's exciting about this for our existing customers is let's say they have a deposit on their account . And a balance due, we can refund that deposit to the account, take that credit or that debit, put them in prep aid. And now they don't have any of those additional fees that could come up or they could pay down that balance. And that's going to help us not only with our existing customers, let's say that they warranted a deposit at that time. We could say you can avoid the deposit altogether and let's put you on prepaid and work out solutions with that. And so also what this is going to show them on a daily usage is what your day cost, what your usage was for the prior day. It's going to give you average temperatures on that and let them know how much they have left until the services may need to be turned off or with that. It also gives them what notifications are going on with their account. You can use it on a mobile device. You can log in and so it's really going to shift the conversation and give our customers another option to pay. And this isn't just for existing customers. It's going to be for new customers coming into the utility system. But I think it's going to be a real game changer with that. So we're, again, really excited about that program coming on board. And I had talked a little bit about it during our budget presentation. So takeaways and recommendations based off of the results and the continued support and ability to work with our customers through those various situations that they may have. Staff is recommending that the ordinance remain intact and then also just take your feedback on how what additional items you may want to see and how we can implement those. And then in efforts to increase assistance to the plus one program, addressing those two opportunities that we mentioned about the tenure at the address and helping them more than once. And to a month period and then also with the contract exp iring, incorporating your feedback on what you may have for direction into the request for proposal. And then with the prepaid utilities coming on board, being able to avoid those deposits and late fees and interest charges to assist our customers in a new and different way. And so with that, in addition to the city's core values, customer service has a mission to help serve and educate. And we appreciate the continued support and the ability to help our customers through the various situations that they work through. And I'd be happy to answer any questions. So I appreciate you working with the customers and I know that you have heart and you want to help customers. But I just I kind of have an issue when there's a lot of people who have problems and struggle and call and is it at the discretion of the customer service agent to decide who can get certain extensions and you can't. I'm just trying to figure out because you keep saying we'll work with them, we'll work with them. How does that that process work? And if you could just go over that with me, I mean, because there's a lot of different people who answer phones. Absolutely, absolutely. I think the one word that I would I would focus on here is empowerment. We want to make sure that we have an empowered workforce to work through that specific situation that the customer is. We do have guidelines with like payment arrangements. It may be one in every six months. Again, depending on circumstances, what's going on. The guideline is to provide a deposit arrangement or balance arrangement splitting out over three months. But again, if that customer service representative is working with that customer and here's the things that they 're going through, they have empowerment to make a decision on that account or work through that deposit. And so we do have the guidelines there. But, you know, as you mentioned, we work with a lot of different situations with that. So we do follow the guidelines. So everyone has a guideline, but then they also have the empowerment to be able to go the extra mile with that customer and help them with that. And that's that's difficult to quantify. You know, whenever we have all the statistics on delinquent services and whatnot, but there's also those conversations that are that are difficult to quantify. And the best way we do that is through our quality program where we listen to those phone calls. How did the customer service rep own the issue and take action and use empowerment appropriately with that? So that's that we follow the guidelines and then we help if we can help. For clarification on the amount. So the city provides one hundred and eighty six thousand dollars a year, some to the plus one and some to interfaith . Is that is that correct? It's a hundred thousand total. And for the plus one program, fourteen thousand is the goes to the administrative cost of interfaith. Interfaith was awarded the contract in 2015. And so now that contracts coming up, it'll go back on the street for a competitive process. So whoever comes back and gets awarded that contract, that administrative costs may change with that and whatever the difference in the admin cost will be what gets funded to that. And I will add, you know, based off of those two opportunities that we have with helping more people with more than once in a 12 month period and then the tenure, there may be a need for additional funding with that. And so I talked with interfaith about that and they said they'd like to see how that works and then come back and say this would be the additional funding that we may need. Because I think there's an opportunity to your point that there may be additional funding that we could get there to help more families. Right. Well, I mean, we are saying that we saved five hundred thousand dollars of estimate, right? This fiscal year or last 15, 16. Right. It's one point four million. One point four. Well, it was the total was one point four million and it went down to five hundred thirty six thousand dollars. So the difference. Right. OK. You don't want me to do that math up here. So really, really, it's closer to four four hundred thousand when we add back in the money that we're giving. OK. So I I'm not in favor of keeping this ordinance as is in case you guys haven't noticed. I would I would prefer to get rid of the deposit or at least reduce it in some way. I don't think we need to charge interest on the account. I agree with you, Mayor. I'm glad that there are community organizations that are willing to help our citizens. But I'm not so sure that if we didn't have such an aggressive ordinance that they would need to spend that much on utilities and could use that money towards food and shelter, rental assistance, possibly. So that is where I stand here and. Just open that up. All right. Good. OK. Thank you. Anything else? Councilmember Gregory. Thanks. Would you go back to slide 13 again? Yes, sir. A couple of questions. You're saying that you're anticipating that that's going to go live May of twenty eighteen. Is it not? Are we not able to do that any sooner? Do we still have kinks to work out bugs to find? We just got it where Rita's account is live. So now we're working through all the different scenarios that a customer may incur. If we can do it sooner, we want to do it sooner. But we also want to make sure we do it right with that. So I really want it to be May of twenty eighteen. We're going to do everything possible to make that. And if we can do it sooner, we're going to do it sooner. How would that work for a person that maybe does not have access to a banking account? Good question. So they're they can pay a money gram. They could pay a kiosk that's in front of our office. Most of them, even if they don't do online banking, research has shown that most people do have a phone. And most of them are smartphones to be able to get into the module, to be able to see what's what's going on with that, because they're going to need visibility to what's going on . And even if they don't have a smartphone, if they have the ability to get text messages, that text message will let them know what their balance is left over or what they need to pay in order to make sure that they're maintaining that credit. So at the minimum, if they had a text message, they could get a notification. And when we changed the ordinance a couple of years ago, we had some information about how this ordinance would compare with other municipalities or co-ops where people don't have another option as far as their electric customers concerned, utility is concerned. And I think we did some comparisons with some private for- profit electric. Have we done any comparisons lately about how this compares , this ordinance that we're currently operating under compares with what other cities, co-ops and private corporations are doing today in terms of deposits? So you're correct. Whenever we did implement the ordinance, there was benchmarking done through the consultant and they benchmarked retailers, co-ops, other cities, there was 22 that they had in there. And previously Denton was on the 20th, meaning the less len ient out of all of those organizations. And so when we changed the ordinance, it brought us to number 16. So it just moved us up slightly as far as what our timeline was, our credit and collection timeline. So we weren't trying to be the most aggressive or the least aggressive, but we were pretty far down. But to your point of where we are currently, that's something that we can take back and see where we're al igning with everyone else currently. Okay. Thank you. Let's see. Guys on the right. I'm very glad to see this finally coming forward. I know it 's been talked about for several years. I'm assuming on the other than electric, because the electric is because we now have the smarter smart meters that we can implement this plan. Our water and all the others, are they just an average bill ? Is that how we're talking about for the prepaid program? Yeah, on the prepaid. So for prepaid, the customer at minimum will at least need to have electric on their account. So if they were a water only account, the prepaid program would. Is that correct, Rita? It's going to be with electric only. Electric needs to be on the bill to be able to be on prep aid. Okay, that's what I thought. So that is correct. Yes. Yes. So if it was a water only account, prepaid would not be option. I want to make sure I got you correct information on that with it. But if they're all utilities, then absolutely, it can work with all of that. You would just do average billing on the other. Yes. Non monitored utilities. Yes. Okay. I encourage you if we can move it any closer than the May of 18, you know, whatever it takes resources wise, all for it. Appreciate that. Mayor Pro Tem. I have a question and then comment. As far as the amount of time that your staff spends dealing with delinquent accounts versus just regular customer inquiries, can you just kind of, I mean, do you have a guesstimate as far as what percentage of your time is spent on delinquent accounts versus non delinquent accounts? That's a good, I have a stat. We spend about 50% of our time fielding those, making a payment, needing a payment arrangement, bill inquiry. So a line share of our time is spent on that in addition to , you know, just making a payment on the account and finding out information. We have that kind of lumped up and that's based off of call type in our customer information system. That's the way we can kind of pull that data all together with that. Does that answer? Yeah, it does. And that's actually very helpful. I'm happy that you have that information kind of off on hand because it, I think it could be a tool to guide effective use of time and effective use of our resources. If we have 4900 customers that are taking up 50% of our employees' time, I think that's an issue in and of itself that we could potentially be addressing by increasing the amount for the plus one program or increasing the amount that we, decreasing deposit requirements or whatever the case may be. I think we can reduce some of that time pressure. The other thing I wanted to ask was, as far as delinquent accounts, do you know what percentage of those accounts are commercial accounts versus residential accounts? I do. So this is the difference between '08 and '09 to now. This was actually one of the items PUB had asked about and we got it collected first thing this morning. So I wanted to have it back pocket for you today in case you had that question. But the difference in the shift where the debt's coming from. And multifamily, I do have stats on how that's increased in volume. For multifamily, that's increased as far as customer base by 15.23% and then residential is increased by 12.21% and then commercial is 9.08% with that. So that's reflective in that. But you can see the shift in. Okay, that's actually really thank you so much for getting that slide because I think that tells a really interesting story. Do we know when people go to interfaith if they are residential or multifamily? They could be either or. Not commercial. I don't know if they. No, ma'am. No, it is only going to be for your residential or multifamily. Okay. Commercial wouldn't qualify for interfaith. All right, so thank you for those answers and then I guess for the council direction. I agree with Councilwoman Briggs that I think we need to change a little bit about, especially the deposit program. I think it's a little bit high. The bill that I saw, which is the same one that Council woman Briggs saw, it was a $223 delinquent bill with a $345 deposit requirement. And I think the deterrent factor of it could be achieved without having such a high deposit amount. And so maybe having a fixed amount as opposed to saying let 's take an average could be one approach. The other thing I wanted to point out was that we already charge our commercial electricity customers, and I believe water as well, significantly less than what we charge our residential customers by an order of magnitude. And in my opinion, I have my own opinions about that, but I think we need to refocus, especially the utility side of things on the customer basis that are residential and multifamily, because that's who we represent in a large way. So that's my second comment about that. We increased our energy efficiency incentives. I want to say it was initially we were supposed to increase it by $50,000, and then we bumped it up again. So now we've increased it by $100,000, and it was kind of like just at the snap of a finger. I would love to see that type of increase go to people truly in need. $100,000 increase to the PLUS ONE program could potentially help about 300 families, and that would close the gap that we have between the 1,900 total applicants to Interfaith and the only 231 people that were assisted by Interfaith, and then we have the 1,200 that are assisted by other non- Interfaith organizations. So we still are missing 500 people that need assistance and aren't able to get it. And $100,000 or more could really go a long way. And I want to frame this in terms of it's I don't even think of it as charity, really, because if your staff is spending 50% of their time on this , that could potentially save you guys, I don't know how much time, it would be interesting to know , but we could be getting that money back in terms of their time can be spent on other things as opposed to just collecting bills. So that would be my suggestion is to decrease the deposit amount, increase the PLUS ONE program by at least $100,000, and then maybe take a look at how much time we're spending on delinquent collections going forward and see if that's actually helped. >> Councilmember Huffman. >> Thank you. For the record, when this was first implemented, I voted no , but I didn't have a button in front of me. So my question is the four, I think I counted four types of notices that your bill is, your mail's been mailed to you, it's been phone call, etc., etc. There's four-ish, maybe a month. Do you know of any of those that are tracked? Because, for example, USPS loses someone's bill. They don't get it. That's very possible. We don't track regular mail, I'm assuming. >> We do track returns. So if it gets lost, obviously we can't track that. But if we get return mail for address changes, return to sender, I'm not saying that's what we get. But for various reasons, we do track that and then document it on the account. So we do track return mail and the phone calls. I think that's maybe where you're going next on tracking the phone calls. We actually get a report back that says, did it reach a human? Was it busy? Did it reach a voicemail? So we do have statistics on that as well. >> Okay, so that's one of my concerns is I don't discount those tracking mechanisms, but I do not hold them in high regard, just because that's just personal experience. And so if someone, the response I get is you should have known your bill's coming. When I would call and say I didn't get it. You should know it's due this periodically time of the month. That's true, but I take issue with that, but we'll leave it at that. So my concern is the tracking mechanisms, kind of the lack thereof. But also, furthermore, I want to kind of hone in on the exclusively the deposit portion of it. And I'd like to have someone whiteboard or show me a graph, exactly quantifying how that credit score and the weights thereof. So if someone could show me exactly the percentages of the Equifax, the previous bills, how that is arrived at. If you could show me that work, because here's my point, there's a surprise element to it. And if no one that is associated with DME can show me that algorithm and show me the work, how do we expect our citizens to do so? And how do I challenge that? So if I'm moving to the city and I need utilities, and I disagree with the assessment, and I have no algorithm, no show you work to see if we can compare notes. If there's no way for me to challenge that based on a fraud report or something that says, hey, the Equifax reported an error, they were just hacked. And so there's no, my concern is that specifically that deposit is an arbitrary number that comes out of nowhere unless someone can show me exactly how they arrive at that number, and I don't think that's possible. >> Well, and that's a good question. It seems like probably we're gonna have another work session on this item for looking at the current, going more, I think, into the specifics of what you're talking about, what Councilmember Briggs and Mayor Pro Tem is talking about. So if you don't mind, if we could have that discussion at the time we bring this back, so that we don't, number one, have to repeat it. Because you're gonna wanna comment on it and come up with a recommendation to change it. Cuz I don't even know if, anyway, are you okay with that? I mean, if you wanna hear it right now, that's fine. >> No, no, I don't think it's possible. I don't think there's anyone that can answer that question today. And I'd love for someone to tell me I'm wrong today. >> Yeah, well, anybody have an answer at least to that particular question? If not, I'll tell you what let's do. Let's hold it to the work session and somebody send him an email today or tomorrow. If you can answer that question as far as just, you're talking about generally. In other words, how does a credit score generally apply to the amount of deposit that is required? >> I wanna say that it's like this. You have X amount of dollars per kilowatt per average, average kilowatt usage, there's a dollar. So if I look at my bill, it says 20 bucks per kilowatt hour , whatever that is. It's a static math. I can say, okay, I use this much, here's how much I owe. So that unit approach to the deposit, because that's my concern. It is an absolute epiphany how that number's arrived at. And we're trusting someone to give us a score that then we do something with and we come up with a dollar amount and the lack of transparency for it. If I'm moving to the city of Denton and I look at the website and it says the deposit required is going to be this algorithm. And so then you can factor them because you don't plan, I don't know that you plan that early in advance when you 're moving. And there's a lot of other moving parts and so you're at the mercy of this magic number. Because you gotta move, and so that's my concern. >> Okay. >> And it really is, and so another thought moving on on the deposit. Does the previous user factor into, and I get it, but so this is, so none of this lists what that means. So for example, Experian, so there, let me see here. >> I was gonna say when we start pulling out pointers, man, I'm really not prepared. >> I'm prepared for you. >> So the Experian- >> Is it working? >> It is, I think. >> Yeah. >> I don't wanna point it in my eye. >> Yeah. >> Don't point it in mine either. >> But the Experian number, I mean, what is that? So if I come up with a different Experian number, does that mean I get that, right? I mean, how do you hash out those- >> Sure, you're wanting to understand that whole correlation. >> Yes, and so I get it that there's a process. I just don't know that it's that clear. And so moving on, but the previous user, does that factor into this deposit algorithm? >> So the deposit is based off of where the address that they're moving into, the previous tenant's usage, average usage. >> So that's- >> With that, so yes, it does. That's what we base the deposit off of. And so when we're assessing the deposits, reassessing them and looking at them, if a customer has a drastic difference in usage, we can absolutely work with them to make that more appropriate. Most cases, that average is spot on for the customer where they're moving into with that, and if it isn't spot on, then they actually have higher usage with that. So it is based off of previous usage from the previous tenant. That's the only way to really get what we think that's gonna be based off that address. >> Right, so then that's my second problem. So if I move in behind Bob the polar bear, and he likes it at 65, then all of a sudden that negatively affects me. Now the bill may average out, but they're gonna assess a deposit on me based on that previous user, which has nothing to do with me. And so really, I mean, the assistance is great. That's not my focus. My focus is on this, when we come back, I want to go deep into this deposit, and I need it to be, for my sake, for me to support it. It needs to be predictable, and it needs to be transparent, and it needs to be really, really proof where anyone could just look at it. Here's the algorithm, here's how it works. And so that's my request. And then the other note I would say on the scale, when we look at it, it needs to factor in the smart, smart meters, because that 's gonna affect how the processes work. And I would almost like to see a payment slide, if you will, that's more based on first and 15th. So traditionally people paid first, 15th, end of the month, that sort of thing. Where maybe if we get off the 40th type dates and 34th and that sort of thing, maybe that would help, because I'm sensitive to the cash flow and debt service, that sort of thing. And I am sensitive to that. And then I would be interested to see if there is a, so two more things. One, if there's a faster disconnect, if we have the smart, smart meters, then they can get back on line faster. So maybe a faster triggered disconnect to get their attention, get back online, that sort of thing. Or find out if someone's midnight moved us, whatever that is. And then, so that's one component, the rate at which the disconnected for those that have the smart, smart meters, if that's a motivation tool. And then lastly, I know the city manager had mentioned, I think during the budget conversation, there's some optimization of DME debt. Options out there, am I remembering that wrong? >> You're talking about studying the way that we're struct uring the debt and when it's coming on? >> Yes sir, I thought there was a way you mentioned we could do some things to then maybe lean out some of that if we opted for that. >> We're continuing to study that right now, so you're correct. >> Okay, yeah, then that would be something I'd like to continue to evaluate. Thank you. >> Councilmember Gregory. >> Thanks. I heard something said, and I wanted to double check on that. That businesses pay a different rate for electricity than residential. Is that true for every business? So a business that has 4,000 square feet compared to a house with 4,000 square feet, they pay a different rate? >> There's different rates for commercial versus residential, yes. Do you want to add? >> We use a cost of service design, so we try to look at what are the costs of the cost related to each class of rate payers that are out there and they pay the costs that are incurred by the utility for those rates. So there are different classes of rates that we have, but they're designed to recover all of their costs. So the residents would pay a residential rate that pays for all of their costs. Commercial accounts pay for a rate that pays for all of their costs. So they're really not designed to subsidize each other. They're meant to pay the rates that are charged, they're meant to pay for each class of those customers. We're going to be going through another cost of service rate design process over the next few months and we'll be bringing some information back to both the PUB and council, but that's how that's done for all of the rate pay ers. >> And that has to do somehow with volume because with volume, the cost for providing that service changes. >> Yes, sir, there's a variable and fixed cost component to all of those rates. >> Okay, all right. Do we know how much that uncollectible debt impacts the rate payers' charges for everybody else? >> I think we had, when we went back to look at if we were to maintain the same amount of debt that we had in 08 and 09, the rate increase could potentially be 1% across all utilities if we maintain that same uncollectible debt with that. So it would be a 1% increase in rates across all utilities. >> As far as direction, I am all for looking at making tweaks and modifications to this, I supported it before. Part of the reason I supported it before was because of that, because of the issue of the uncollected debt continuing to go up. And the impact that that would have on other customers because while I certainly believe that we need to have compassion, and I applaud the compassion that we have for folks who are struggling with making a payment and are unable to, we also have a lot of rate payers that are actually struggling, but they do make their payments. And if their rates have to go up to cover the folks that didn't make their payments, then we have to have compassion for those rate payers too. One of the things that you hear when you run for office, and you hear it over and over again, is that we ought to run our city government like a business. And everybody wants us to do that until we operate a business and we run it like a business, and then they don't want us to. And I think it's a terrible idea to run a government like a business because we don't wanna, businesses charge for units that you buy and things like that. And we don't wanna necessarily charge people for every time they drive on the road. We don't wanna charge kids for every hour that they play on the playgrounds at the parks. So government shouldn't be run like a business in those senses. But when we have a business, there has to be some semblance of a clear business model that we find so that when people buy services that we 're selling, that we're assured that they pay for those because if they don't, then somebody else, other citizens, other rate payers are having to cover their cost. So tweaking the program, you bet, I'm all for that. Looking at increasing some contributions to interfaith or whatever organization we decide, I think that 's great. I think that the pay as you go program could help a lot. I wanna make sure that it's available for folks who, cuz some of the folks that maybe struggle the most are folks that also maybe don't have a banking account because their credit is so bad that it's hard for them to maintain a relationship with the bank. And that may be where we wanna maybe help some of those folks with the bank on program. So I'm okay with some changes. I think wholesale changes to it, because I think it was a very good thing that we reduced our uncollectible debt. I think that was good for all of our rate payers. >> Did you have a comment? I mean, I've got some, but go ahead. >> Go ahead. >> Go ahead. I'm gonna wrap it up. >> Okay. >> We've been at this for about two hours. >> Well, I was wondering when this item is going to come back, cuz you mentioned earlier we're gonna have another chance. It appears to do that, and in the meantime, we still have citizens receiving these deposits and late payments. So the sooner that we could discuss this ordinance, the better. And back to Experian, if there is somebody else we can use, if we continue to run credit reports, if there's someone else we can use, because Councilmember Hadsworth mentioned, I mean, there is a lot of issues going on with that company right now, and I don't know that. >> We actually use online utility exchange. We don't partner directly with Experian. I'm glad you brought that question up so I can clarify. Online utility exchange verifies the customer's identity and gives us that assessment of risk. So that's what they're doing for us, cuz we need to make sure that you are who you are coming into our utility system, make sure we're curbing that identity theft. And then assessing the deposit as needed based off of what that result comes back at. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> Go ahead. We're gonna have this whole discussion again, so go ahead. >> Well, I just take issue. If you go back to the slide where the, that explains the deposit. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> Bad verse letter? >> Source, Experian, right? Is that what that says? >> Yes, that's just- >> Okay. >> But we're using online utility exchange to run it. >> But that's a adverse letter. >> Yes, this is the letter that's provided to customers when we have a deposit assessed. >> And that goes directly to your point that you wanna explore in the next work session, is how did all these things correlate? Yeah. Well, I know if we were sitting here having this discussion like we did six or seven years ago with the $1.5 million worth of uncollected debt in the utility department, this conversation would be very different. So I do appreciate your work. I do appreciate that this seems to have helped us reduce our debt, which all the citizens pay for, this uncollected debt. Can we look at the deposits? Very possibly. One question I had was that example that was circulated around had, it looks like an additional deposit that was on the account , which means they probably had an original deposit. So I wanna explore how an original deposit is interacted with a delinquent bill. You know, why, if it can't be used, why not? And if it is used, why isn't just the replacement of that amount good enough? And secondly, wanna explore when you make a payment that it goes to the additionally levy deposit first. So I think there's room that we can tweak on these things. I can tell you from experience, multifamily is up because kids move in, they sign up, they get basically two months free of electricity before they get turned off, and they move out. And how many times have I had to have my tenants provide a copy of a lease to the utility company to ensure that they are not somebody either related to, or somebody who is a roommate of, or somehow connected with that delinquent account because they need verification, because somebody skipped on the bill. So I think it's gonna be interesting to maybe look at, is there any way, which we probably can't, but I'll save that question for later. So no, I think so. The 1900 that applied interfaith, the 200 something to get helped, I don't know how many of those 1900 are going over to the other agencies. I mean, certainly no one sitting at this day, as this little work session here, wants to hurt people. And it's hard, and it's a very subtle task to balance all the interests. To balance the interests over the whole rate system. To balance, we don't want to have, if we had $2 million worth of uncollected debt in the utility department, we would all be screaming at you right now instead of trying to figure out how we can help more families, quite frankly. And so I just want to make sure that we juxtapose that with the conversation six years ago. So there is a fine balance. There is a good, these aren't necessarily competing interests. I believe we can find something that we can tweak, give it six months to a year, see how it works, because I don't want to necessarily go six or seven years after making a change like this to see if it's effective. So I welcome the conversation. I think there's been some good feedback. I think there's some good questions on our process and how do we do this? Because there might be some ways that we can, we're not going to be able to help every person, but we can help as many people as we can by making the process as tight and gives them the best opportunity without necessarily raising that up. And I would really be interested in the stats that you said about 50% are for delinquent accounts and/or account inquiries. I would find it hard to believe that 4900 accounts, which is about 150 a day. How many customer service reps do we have? >> 23. >> 20 or 30? >> Yeah, 23 and it goes up during the summertime. >> I would be surprised if half of those 23 on an eight hour shift is handling, it'd just be interesting to see the breakdown of that. And I will say that the times I've had tenants or myself have to interact or even constituents who have called with these kind of problems interact with your department. I've not heard anybody come back to me and say, we've not been helped. We don't understand and y'all work very hard to do the best you can. And when I pick up the phone and make a call, somebody answers it. And if they don't have an answer to my question, they'll answer it. So question for you is if someone is interacting with a customer service representative and they do not feel like that they're getting necessarily the best customer experience on trying to resolve their problem. Do they simply just have to ask for a supervisor in that particular situation? Or what's the process to maybe taking it up to a different level? >> Absolutely, back to empowerment, they're empowered to make that decision. But if the customer feels like their experience is subpar, they absolutely can ask to speak to someone else with that so we can take a deeper dive into it. And again, going back, we do have a quality assurance program where we're grading phone calls, ten a month for the customers to make sure that we are calibrated and that we're meeting our key performance indicators and offering that level of service. But I know that I've been sent several myself and we wanna take care of the customer. And if we can take away anything from this conversation today is I welcome the feedback in the discussion of what you all said, I honor it . But also for the customers listening in, if they get that bill or they have that, please reach out. The most important thing we want is that open dialogue with them so we can assist them with that. We welcome that and that's what we're here to do. So we'd appreciate that opportunity. >> Thank you. And I appreciate my colleagues, great questions, great conversation. I think this is how we'll come out with something that will be beneficial to all while balancing all those different interests. So thank you very much for your presentation, great job. We will go ahead and take a five minute break and come back and take up agenda item C. [BLANK_AUDIO] Welcome back to this meeting of the Denton City Council on Tuesday, October the 17th, 2017, it is 3.07. We're working through our work session reports. We are on agenda item C, which is receive a report and hold a discussion regarding the Discover Denton Welcome Center. [BLANK_AUDIO] Nope, okay. I'm looking over to Kim and she's still sitting there. >> She's gonna come up and do the presentation. I just wanted to introduce this item, why it's on the agenda. At the last Hotel Occupancy Tax Committee meeting, it was requested that we get an update on the visitor center. So we spoke to Kim and she put together a presentation. She's the vice president of the Convention and Visitors Bureau. So I'm gonna open up the presentation and let her come up and give it. But I wanted to give that brief reference. >> Great. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> Thank you, Chuck. Good afternoon, Mayor, City Council. I appreciate the opportunity to be here and to bring you all this update regarding the Discover Denton Welcome Center. I'm Kim Phillips and I'm the director of the Convention and Visitors Bureau. And in that capacity, also oversee the Discover Denton Welcome Center. And just for your information, I also want to introduce Jake Laughlin, who is one of the managers of the Discover Denton Welcome Center, who is also here in the audience. And with that, I will just jump right in. [BLANK_AUDIO] Do I just? >> [LAUGH] >> Okay. >> Gotcha. >> Okay. So let me give you just a brief background of the project. Several years ago, the Convention and Visitors Bureau had a couple of different, actually more than a couple, several different anecdotal stories that occurred that began to show the need for some kind of a place where we could interact with visitors to Denton. I won't take up all of your time telling you long stories, but I will share just one with you. Probably one of the more significant stories dealt with a journalist who was here in Denton from the New York Times. He was on assignment from the New York Times to study the music industry in Denton. This was in 2008. And he came here on a mystery assignment, which means no one in Denton knew that he was coming here. He was coming to do this expose on what he found without anybody being prepared for him to show up. He wanted to see it the way it really is. And to make a long story short, he didn't find it. He went back to New York and reported to his authorities that, I'm sorry, I can't write the story. You totally are wrong. That is not happening in Denton, Texas. And after that, his editor said, try again. You're missing it. Something is happening in Denton. You just didn't find it. And at that point, he called and explained his dilemma. And we brought him back to Denton and showed him what he needed to see, helped him discover this kind of underground music industry in Denton. And he was able to write the story. We had a full two page spread in the New York Times and it was great. That story ended well because he called. The question was, how many people come here and we don't know about it and they leave and miss Denton? That's where the idea for the Visitors Bureau for the Visitor Center was actually born. From there, the leadership Denton class of 2012, we pitched the idea of researching a welcome center slash visitor center project for Denton. We pitched that to the leadership Denton class as a possibility for their year long research project. And they took it and worked all year long looking at benchmarking other cities that, as Caroline mentioned in her presentation earlier, that look like Denton. Similar location and proximity to a large metropolitan area , similar demographics, a college town, similar population. Did their research and actually by the end of their class time, which was May of 2012, they graduated the last Friday of April of 2012. And at that time presented a business plan to us as their project. City council members, the council at that time was in the room and everybody was just wowed by it and said, wow, this really could work in Denton. We see it and CVB, you guys see what you can do with this. And so we did, we began looking for a location. We looked at a number of locations over the years that came about after that. Worked with several local commercial real estate people to help us look at different locations and for whatever reason, everything that we thought might actually have some potential for reality would fall through until 2015. When we received the call actually from a commercial business owner or a building owner on the square that knew we were looking and said could this be a possibility if we partner. And so we did and we are now at 111 West Hickory Street on the square, on the south side of the square. And we came to city council with the project once this location was determined. And in July of 2015, the city council allocated $284,000 of hotel occupancy tax money very specific to the welcome center project for us to get started. And then for the following two years, another $200,000 each of those years at the time for operations. We finally opened the welcome center on June 21st of 2016. And that explains a little bit, we'll get into the money of this. But obviously, when you build things, they don't necessarily run on your schedule to get things built out and that's what we learned really quickly. It was a major learning experience. But we did get open in June 21st of 2016 with total build out expenses of $285,304. And this is the welcome center. I'm sure all of you have been in it. In fact, I failed to mention that Sarah Begarry was actually in the leadership dent class that helped arrive at this visitor center. This is the visitor center, again, 111 West Hickory. It's right next door to LSA and the Evers Hardware Building . It sits right between those two. And this shows you our hours of operation. Currently, we're open 74 hours per week. And those hours spread across seven days, all seven days. And then this is the revenue and expense summary that shows you from the very beginning, the very first hotel tax allocation from the city council in 2015 and follows it through our budget projections for 2018. And I don't have a pointer, but if you notice on the top section under revenues, you will see that the top line there deals with the hotel occupancy tax. But then you'll also see a number of other revenue sources that have come to life since our project opened. We have initiated a merchandising effort, which is a combination branding, primarily a branding exercise. But it also creates a revenue stream to help support the convention center and, I mean, the welcome center endeavor. Consignments, this is more merchandising, but it is actually other people in Denton that don't have the opportunity to have a storefront, particularly a storefront on the square. Some of the consignors in there, just to give you an example, are the dime store, which represents more than 200 local makers. It's a wonderful partnership for us because the dime store is between our staff and 200 plus individual makers, and yet we're able to showcase those individual makers in our store. Also, both of the universities are consignors. You have a question? >> I think Keely had a question. >> I'm sorry. >> She can- >> Okay, guys, sure. >> It's regarding the slide, but- >> Okay, okay. That's all right. Both of the universities, we have some other consignors, some local jewelry, local artists that showcase in there as well. So that is the consignment, and it's important to differentiate the two because you'll see in the expenditures that the consigner income also creates a different kind of expense. Sponsorships and advertising, I would be remiss if I didn't introduce one of our number one underwriters. He's in the room today, and that's Rick Wick with Classic here in Denton. And he is our largest underwriter actually at this time, and want to thank him. But he's one of a number of them because you'll see that this year for 2016, we had $51,700 of community investment. This is from the business community. And 75,000 this year, and we project 95,000 for next year. And then in the expenditures, as I mentioned, the cons ignment payouts, the 37,995, that's the flip side of that revenue. We keep a percentage, typically it's a 25% on the cons ignment sales, and then the business gets the rest of that. We literally write them a check once a month to pay them for their sales. And you see the build out, the finish out there. And ultimately, we're in the black after one year, which is great. And hopefully we'll begin to build a little bit of an account there that can handle things like something goes wrong with the building. We need to hire some kind of a service contract to come in and repair or fix things, or we need something repainted, and those type things. We do not have any kind of allowance for that at this point . So hoping to build that up a little bit so we have something to fall back on that cushion. >> You wanna go ahead and ask your question now? >> Yeah, so two questions. One about the sponsorships and the other about the lease. >> On the sponsorships and advertising, since it is a city of Denton building, do we have, is there an ordinance or some sort of city agreement on the sponsorships that come in? >> That's a good question. The easy answer is that it's actually not a city of Denton building. We actually, the Chamber of Commerce actually holds that lease is between the Chamber of Commerce and Elk River, which is Sparky Pearson's company, is who owns the building . And we simply lease that particular space. The upstairs of the same building actually belongs to LSA. >> Okay, so that brings me to my second question on the lease part. So the city isn't necessarily paying that? >> No. >> Okay. >> We use, hotel occupancy tax is one of the revenue streams coming into the project. And from that project total, we make the lease payments. >> So regarding the patio upstairs, because when we first moved in, that wasn't open. And so that part, I guess you just confirmed, is not part of what we lease. That is totally separate. So we don't necessarily book, the welcome center doesn't book musicians. >> We can, and we do. >> Okay. >> That sounded conflicting and it's not. We do book activities for special groups and stuff up there on that rooftop. But we would book it like anyone else. We do have a special rate because of the partnership that we have with LSA. We're able to, for instance, use the ice machines in their kitchen. If we need to, we can go hand out our buckets and get ice machines out of theirs. And they hand it back to us, cuz our back door literally connects to their kitchen. >> Right, okay. >> But upstairs belongs to them. It's their own seating. If you go up there on any night, unless there is a private event booked there, which is rare, it is restaurant seating. >> Okay, thank you. >> Okay, any other questions right now? Okay. >> Go ahead. >> And then my last slide just points out some of what we consider the top successes and primary challenges that we have been able to identify now after 14 months of being open. The successes, I think that is an astounding number of 77, 205 people. And that's in one year. If you look at that number right now, as of September the 30th, it is about 90,000 people that have come into that visitor center. And we do count every single one of them, every single one. >> Kim, how do you do that? You just- >> We literally have counters. >> Okay, somebody's gotta, okay. >> We have counters and literally count them. And if you walk in there three times in one day, you only get counted once. Just so you know, we don't cheat by saying, will you please come in and out 20 times so we can count you 20 times? So that averages out to about 6,000 visitors a month. Some months are obviously heavier than others. We found that we're in the busiest season right now. Through Christmas will be tremendous. This is where the bulk of the business will happen. January, February, and even early March, it really drops off, but starts picking up with spring break and then stays good and steady through the summer months. And then goes wild again come fall when the universities pick back up again. Obviously the community investment factor has been wonderful. And I think the DentRadio.com piece of our welcome center, which is extremely unique, and in fact, if you don't know this, nobody in the entire United States has a welcome center like ours. It's extremely unique, very Denton. But I believe that having the radio station there really adds a value interest to our community sponsors and investors. Because it gives them a way to connect with the community and with potential new customers that wouldn't exist otherwise. And then sales. And this is advertising sales, not just merchandising, although the merchandising has been significant. Much more than we imagined was going to happen. And then advertising sales as well goes hand in hand with the community and sponsor investment piece. And then the challenges, staffing and volunteers have proved to be a challenge a little bigger than what we had imagined when we were going to open our visitor center in our store. We kind of looked at the way other retail establishments along the square operate. And their staffing and so forth, and with 74 hours a week, the staffing is a challenge, especially when looking at a volunteer component, which we had imagined would be just, wow, everybody's gonna love this. And they do as long as they can work hours that are really convenient, and they're not at night and they're not on weekends. And that is our busiest times of the day and the days. The weekends are packed, nights are always our busiest part of every single weekday. Plus we are the only unrestricted public facility that is on the square. So our restroom facilities, and specifically, are in very high demand, especially in the evenings. And by unrestricted, that means you do not have to make a purchase in order to use the facilities in our building. And especially after 5 o'clock when most of the other stores, the courthouse on the square, are beginning to close up, we see a lot more of that traffic. And that amount of foot traffic, more than anticipated, obviously has significant wear and tear challenges that we have to deal with. So again, going back to, we hope to build that balance a little bit so we can deal with more about the building, so. >> Okay, questions, yes. >> So of the average 6,000 visitors per month, how many do you think came in to use the restroom? >> We actually can give you that exact count. >> Can you? >> Mm-hm. >> Okay. >> Yeah, we do, it is not in this presentation, but there is a different study that is happening right now at City Hall that is actually looking into that particular topic. Because we count people individually. If they are legitimately visitors or locals coming in to ask questions or to learn something or to purchase a souvenir item or a gift item, they're counted differently than I just need the bathroom. >> Okay, cool, thank you. Yes, Mayor Pro Tem and then Council Member Hussbett. >> So one of the things I remember back from 2012, which I don't remember a ton, but I know that we compared, we, leadership dent in class, we compared different visitor centers like in Austin and W aco. And one of the things that the business plan sought out to do was to create a pathway to solvency, if you will, or basically being a self-funding operation. >> So when do you anticipate that, at some point, at what point do you anticipate that hot program funds might not be needed? >> It's a good question and also a really hard one. Right now, hot funds pays primarily for staff and then a portion of the rent that doesn't fall quite under what our sponsorship covers. Staffing is a bigger impact than our thoughts originally simply because of the amount of traffic that comes in. And into the later hours, which I think are significant hours, because that is the bulk of the time that we have visiting. But it requires more people than one to be in that space at a time. Typically in the night times and on weekends we'll have three working at a time. And so yeah, that is a bigger hit on the budget than what we had imagined. You know, most cities that have a visitor center spend a lot of money on that visitor center every year. And I think at $200,000, it's very, very minimal investment and we're now making the other half of $200,000 out of sponsors hips and sales to make what it takes to run it and that's after only year one. >> So how do we compare to other cities? >> I mean, it's all over the board. I could definitely do a study for that and come back with it. But some are spending- >> You might have it. I mean, I don't want you to have to go do that if it's already available somewhere. >> Well, of course, the leadership didn't class to provide a lot of that. So there is that, but that is gonna be old information, you 're right. But I mean, some are spending a million dollars on theirs a year, because it's that important. So, or more, it just depends on how many staff members that they have and so forth. And our staff is not just people at a cash machine trying to sell you a t-shirt. These are people that have gone through very extensive training in order to really be able to counsel people through their Denton experience to customize what it is they want to do with their interests and help them find that. >> So do you anticipate using hot program funds at the current level for the foreseeable future then? >> I do. >> Okay, thank you. >> Councilmember Hussbett. >> Thank you. My question is, have you evaluated being near the square versus on the square? And I understand the value of being where you are. My concern is though, if someone is new in town and they drive up, the chances of them being able to just park and pop in and ask questions is zero or very slim to none. Versus if you're a little further, or not further out, but off the immediate square, someone new in town could pull up, pop in, ask questions, kind of get direction, get inside what do's, don'ts, that sort of thing. Have you evaluated that, the pluses and minuses of being just a little off where you are so that people can drive up and get to you, park, and then go exploring? >> Yeah, we have not done a formal study on that in any means. I think if we were, I think being on the square was a stroke of luck. We didn't think we could ever make that happen. But being on the square, we're in the middle of the foot traffic, of the entertainment district, we're right in the center of where people make impulse decisions about what they're going to do and how they're going to spend. I don't think it has hurt us a bit. And in fact, I think if we moved off the square, you would see an immediate reduction in those numbers. Because a lot of those numbers are people that are finding us and finding this resource totally by accident. They're just walking around going, wow, this is cool. Maybe you guys can help us. Maybe you, hey, we're in town and we're going to see. This has happened more than one time. We're here to see a play at the campus theater. We've got three hours to kill. What can we do? >> [COUGH] >> Excuse me. So that happens a lot. And those people are here, they came to a play. But we're able to help them consume even more within their dent and experience than they originally had planned to do. >> Okay. >> And we're only a block from William Square, so it's not bad. >> Right. Yeah, the thought was just, I think we are losing, as much as we gain, I think we lose a little, and I just use that by example. I was in Granbury a month or so ago, and their center's just a block, it's a half block off the square. And so you go in there, they have all the pamphlets, they have all information. And then you go about your venture and that seemed to flow better. We could access it, it wasn't as difficult to park on the square. So that was a thought. And then, so thank you. And then for council, I think one of the things I had explored, and I spoke with Alice at the Denton Community Health Clinic. And I know we got a report in our, or we received a report in our Friday report, maybe two weeks ago regarding the restroom. So I think an idea is to add a component of a nursing station downtown. So one, we're investing in the Denton County, it's about the restrooms. >> Okay, yeah, I know, I'm trying to make sure we stay on posting, yeah. >> Yeah, it's absolutely, it's absolutely- >> I want to make sure, so we're good so far? >> Waterline. >> Okay. >> Well, it's absolutely, this is an issue. The restrooms there are an issue, and keeping those clean is an issue. And a way to do that is if you had a nursing station that is, it's a restroom and a nursing out front. So then you're monitoring, it helps keep the cleanliness, and it takes the pressure off slips, falls, dehydrations. That sort of stuff on the square, we're not dialing up 911 instantaneously and running the fire department to a block up to the square. We can handle some of those minor emergencies that way, so it deals with the cleanliness, it deals with the need, and takes some pressure off of this institution. So it's something I'd like to see us explore further if there's any appetite for that. I think it solves all issues and touches some that have not arisen. >> Okay, good, yep, thank you. And you might just double back on concluding items just to request that again, just so we're clear. Any other questions for, yes? >> I have one back on the. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> Ding. >> Yes. >> So under operations and maintenance, that's 60,000 a year, that's pretty significant. Does that mean we just had a big conversation about utilities, is that where that is included? >> No, actually it's not. That is everything from janitorial. Basically it's everything to run it except the computer systems. So janitorial, if y'all don't mind, Jake, can you help me? Operations. >> Yeah, if he's gonna speak, he needs to come to the microphone. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> They're asking for the definition of operations, and I know it's, you need to state your name. >> Jake, welcome. >> [LAUGH] >> Well, operational could be anything from janitorial. We just changed out all the light bulbs today, and we have to have really nice light bulbs, cuz we only have six of them, and they need to be really high powered. So that, or there's a table gets broken, and maybe we need to fix that really quick. Or somebody has a kid that wants to hang off of a brochure rack, and then that needs to be fixed, and some of those things. So just more general maintenance of things that are going. Plumbing, we had a lot of plumbing issues, and so calling in people that can help with those kind of things. >> Okay, thank you. >> Senator Chris. >> Thank you. >> Over the course of the year. >> Any other questions? Was that your last slide or- >> Yes, sir. >> Okay, any other questions for Kim? Fantastic, thank you. >> Okay, thank you. >> Appreciate that very much, thank you . >> [INAUDIBLE] >> Okay, all right. We'll go on to our next agenda item then, which is agenda item D. Receive report, hold discussion, give staff direction regarding requests to release extraterritorial jurisdiction to the city of Corinth. It shouldn't take very long. >> Thank you, Mayor, members of council, city manager and staff, I've got four presentation slides, so it won't be too long. This is a request from the city of Corinth to release ETJ boundaries, or an ETJ boundary in an area that is southeast of the city limits of Denton. To be specific, it's in this dark box area here, again, southeast of the city of Denton. If you take a closer look, you'll see that the city of Dent on is in this general location, where Gaia High School is located. This is Teasley, and then this is FM 2499, running north and south. The subject parcels that the city of Corinth is requesting that the city release ETJ is in this general vicinity. We've got Corinth to the north, Hickory Creek to the east, and Copper Canyon to the south. If you take an even closer look at that general area, the subject properties that, again, the city of Corinth is looking to ask, or is asking the city of Denton to release, are these parcels here. The city's ETJ boundary is in this dark, or this gray shaded area. That is currently the, again, city of Denton's ETJ division one boundary. So the city of Corinth, Corinth doesn't have any ETJ. They're primarily all city, they're landlocked. The subject parcels are but an existing residential subdiv ision. It's actually part of an existing subdivision. You can see here the 13 lots that they're looking at, potentially annexing, was developed as part of the subdiv ision. Currently receives utility from the city of Corinth. We, the city of Denton, do not provide water or wastewater. They receive their services through the city of Corinth. I believe it's Upper Trinity district that provides the water, and they also handle the wastewater services as well . It's outside our CCN, our certificate of convenience and necessity for water, wastewater, and electricity. So we are not in this area. We don't anticipate any utilities in this area in the near future. And then last, as you can see, the area is pretty much in undated with floodplain. This is our floodplain map that's shown in blue. The areas, again, that is being requested is in this general area, and those areas are outside of the floodplain. That concludes my presentation, but I do want to provide some clarification, if I may. In the AIS, there was mention of an interlocal agreement. There is not an interlocal agreement. We were able to confirm that with the city of Corinth. So as far as wastewater and water, there is not an interloc al agreement between the city of Denton and city of Corinth. And then another point of clarification, we did speak with the city's planning director. He is requesting that we just consider the 13 lot. We know in the staff report there was a mention of potentially a larger area. He would like just us, the city, to consider focusing on just the 13 lot. So that concludes my presentation. I'd be happy to answer any questions. >> Okay, so that kind of answers what the 20 acres you're saying is not on the table anymore. They don't want, or is that included in the 13 lots? I'm just- >> That's approximately 20. >> 20 acres right there? >> Correct. >> Okay, and you said those lots have been developed already? >> Some of them have. Some of them are still undeveloped. >> And so they were developed as being in the Denton ETJ? >> Correct. >> And was there plans for us to bring that into the city after development? >> There has been no plans or been consideration. Again, our current boundary is further to the west in this area. And in order for us to obtain our annex property, we'd have to go all the way through this area to obtain or annex those properties. >> But they already are receiving utilities from Corinth, so if we kept it, we would not be required to bring our water and all of our services out there, or would we? >> We would not be required to. Our CCN is outside of that general area. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> CCN, just for purpose of discussion, ends in this general vicinity right here. >> So if we decided to do this, it's basically just about the property and the taxes, right? >> Generally. >> Yes, generally. >> They want it in the city of Corinth so they can get property. Yeah, that's my hunch. >> Okay, that's odd. >> Yeah. >> Thank you, thank you, Mayor. >> Do the residents there, have they been contacted by either Corinth or by Denton regarding this request? >> The city of Denton has not. I can't speak for the city of Corinth, understanding that they may have, but I can't answer that question. I do not know. >> But right now, the certificate for services like utilities, they're not getting any Denton utilities at all? >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Are we concerned about, at times we've been fairly protective about the watershed. And not giving up our jurisdiction over the watershed so that we can control the quality of water because Hickory Creek feeds into Lake Louisville and our water intake plant is close to that area. >> Sure. >> So is that of any concern to the staff? >> We certainly feel that that's a valid concern. And if we have an opportunity, we'd address it through some sort of conditions that we can place on either an agreement or some sort to make sure that our water quality is not jeopardized. But it hasn't come up yet, but something that I think is worth looking into. >> That's the only thing that concerns me about this, because I'm fine with that residential section. So let me get clear what the request is. Is a request for that entire area that's shaded in, or is it just for the area that's developed? >> Just the yellow area. >> Okay, well, I'm fine with that. And what is that road, the right of way that's going through there? >> This right here? 2499. >> Okay, thank you. >> FM 2499. >> Sure. >> Mayor Pro Tem. >> I'm in favor of releasing this to the city of Corinth. >> Okay, anybody else? >> Yeah, my only interaction with this neighborhood was HOA issues with Pecan Creek. Otherwise, I didn't know it was there. There's some that are in HOA and some that are not, but yeah, I have no problem with it. >> I kind of do, just because we're losing out on taxes. >> Well, we don't get taxes on that. The city of Denton doesn't get taxes on that. It's in the county, but it's just in our EPJ. >> Potential. >> Potential. >> Right. >> Potential. It was in the backup of potential loss. >> Well. >> So, I mean, but. >> Yeah, for that loss to happen, we'd have to annex everything. And the state just passed a law that says to be able to annex, you gotta have people in the area that's gonna be annexed to vote. So I think our annexation ability is, I don't mind it, but I would like to, we're basically giving up this ETJ to allow them to go into the city to receive. These are expensive lots. That's the lake. >> Yeah. >> That's the lake there. So I think we need to see if there's something else that we can maybe trade. Is there something of other benefit somewhere on the boundaries of Corinth or some type of agreement to monitor the watershed or, I just hate to give up something without exploring to see if there's something else that we might be reasonable about. >> Right, I think one of the things that we looked into was maybe potentially, you may be swapping or trading some ETJ, but they do not have any ETJ. The city of Corinth doesn't. So that one was one of the options that we would consider. But unless there's other things that the council would like us to bring up with the rent. >> I would like to at least have it, and I didn't see it in the backup, but do we have an estimate of what that additional tax revenue to the city of Corinth will be? >> There's something in the backup that talks about the potential city taxes. So I would assume if the same for the city of Den, it would be roughly similar. About 48,000 a year is what I calculated. >> Well, I'm sorry, it's hard to just say. Go ahead. >> I imagine living on that street outside of the yellow, and then you vote in the city of Corinth elections, and then your next door neighbor votes in the city of Denton elections. >> Well, they're not voting in the city of Denton. They're not in the city of Denton. >> Well, I'm saying if we were to keep them in the ETJ with the idea that at some point we collect their revenue- >> Sure, no, I don't mind it. I'm just saying, I mean, $50,000 a year? Is there, I mean, if there's some way that we can, I mean, I don't care, but I just, that's, well, I would like to explore to see if there's some other value that the city can receive from that, whether it be some other type of interlocal agreement on participation in whatever. I mean, this isn't time sensitive, I don't think. I mean, it doesn't matter if we do it today or next month, I wouldn't imagine. >> The city of Corinth has mentioned that they would elect to annex in the near future, but again, they would have to go through that annexation process, and in order for them to start that process, we would have to obviously release the ETJ. But I don't think it's a timely matter, but they do want to do it soon, is what our understanding is. >> Sure, no, just because in essence, it was developed in the ETJ. I mean, that wasn't a secret to anybody. I mean, it was developed in the ETJ, so let's see if there 's some creativity floating around somewhere. >> I like the idea though of adding something regarding the water quality, just so that when we're in this position, we can ask for something and make sure that that's being addressed in the future. >> I mean, maybe they can sponsor some event, just explore, that's all. It may come back with a big zero, but it's certainly worth asking. >> We can do that. >> Yeah. >> Right, I agree with that, and also since it is in the flood plain, if you could offline just give me an idea of what their development policies are for flood plain. I know that we have some, and what ours are here, but just kind of if it went into the city, what restrictions or development that they would have for their ESAs or flood plain. >> For Corinth? >> For Corinth, yeah, I don't know that. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> So next steps would be contacting the city of Corinth and asking them for options. >> Yeah, just, I mean. >> And then. >> Sure. >> And then. >> Come back and just, yeah, just come back and just give us a brief update and I'm sure it'll be fine, whatever it is. Yes. >> What, is this like Mayor Math? There's only two of you that want that. >> That's right, okay. >> Yeah. >> Sorry. >> [LAUGH] >> Very good, Mayor Pro Tem. >> Is it weighted? >> Very good Mayor Pro Tem. So I got overruled. >> Very good Mayor Pro Tem, all right. Okay, well, I guess we're gonna let them annex it and just give it away to them for free. >> [LAUGH] >> Thank you Mayor Pro Tem, appreciate that. Everybody, the address is 215 East McKinney Street. >> Wait, wait. >> Plus one program. >> I'm willing to ask the question. I'm willing to for that question. >> Okay, well we got three, anybody else willing to ask the question? Anybody else? All right. >> Why not? >> Thank you Mayor Pro Tem. >> [LAUGH] >> Appreciate that. >> I'm just counting. >> I appreciate, well I already knew that sort of intuitively. Yeah, I knew that. >> Why am I showing up? >> Yeah, and it's not from Billy, I can tell you that. Okay. >> So what we'll do is we'll reach out to Senator Cornynth and if we get an answer either way, our hope is that next potential meeting we'll have an ordinance and we'll draft it. Of course, you still would have to give us your approval with that consideration of that ordinance. >> And so, and when I'm asking about that, in all seriousness, because there may be some opportunity where they may say, you know what, look. We'll give you 5,000. Because, I mean, in essence, they're either going to purchase it or we're going to give it to them. >> Sure. >> And so we could say, if there's some kind of monetary renumeration, we could find some program. I mean, there's just a lot of creativity. We're not talking about a lot of money. I mean, I just want to see what they have to say. I just want to see what they have to say. >> [INAUDIBLE] >> No, I'm thinking along those lines because we did another shift of property boundary between us and Cornynth. >> Yes. >> [INAUDIBLE] >> State school road and sort of, yeah. >> State school road in that area. >> Yeah. >> There may be some other area that's actually in their city limits that we're doing all of the water and waste. >> Are we all posting? >> No, I just wanted to let you know that there's two laws. This is chapter 42 of the local government code, which deals with ETJ. >> There's a difference. >> You're talking about the chapter 43 where we do boundary swaps. >> Okay. >> Where we swap land. >> Okay. >> Creativity. >> Will do. >> Yes, all right. >> Got it, understood. >> Fantastic. >> I'll teach you, Mayor Pro Tem. You got me the votes, thank you. >> Counting. >> I'm just playing with you. That's good though. Yeah, I needed to be called out on that one. Okay, we'll move on to agenda item E, I believe, which is receive report, hold discussion, give staff direction regarding the city's position. It applies to compliance with Texas Senate Bill 4 as to the language and force ability of the bill that is being reviewed by the US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. >> Good afternoon, my name is Victor Flores. I'm one of the newest deputy city attorneys here at Denton. And just for the record, I know there was a discussion about the welcome center in a magazine rack that was broken by a child. My family was down there this weekend and that was not my child. >> Okay, good, good. >> Just to set the record straight. So just as important as information that I'm going to share with the council is kind of where this information is coming from. This is not my first glance at SP4. I come from McAllen, Texas, city of McAllen. And it's along the border, so it's sister city is Reynosa, which is about five, five minute drive south. And I also have contacts with various other municipalities along the border. And we've been watching this bill for some time. Now, my transition here to Denton occurred slightly after August 30th, which was the date that the Western District issued their order. And so I was catching up with everything the city of Denton has done. And Mr. Leal and Jerry have, we've been brainstorming of everything that Denton's done already and all the research they've done and compiling what I know from McAllen. So that's kind of where we have this presentation today. Also to help me out is Deputy Chief Fletcher. And so just to kind of give you a roadmap of where we're going is I'm going to try to provide a very summary, high level SP4. What I'd like to do is have Chief Fletcher come and explain the practical application of SP4, how it does or does not affect or impact the city of Denton Police Department. And then as we go on, we'll start to ramp up maybe some more specifics of the ongoings over at the Western District . And also the fifth court of appeals. And then maybe some possibilities, some options for the council to consider in going forward and how they want to address Senate Bill 4. So with that, kind of our roadmap I've got to discuss. So compliance with Senate Bill 4, what is that? It's just going to be very, very high level again. And then we're going to talk about what happened in the Western District in the fifth court of appeals. Maybe do a timeline if you guys, if everybody wants to listen to that timeline. And then also maybe going into very, very detail of the order from the Western District and Fifth Court of Appeals. This should be, I anticipate, a dialogue with the council members. And so if at any time you have a question, I'm not going to say it by 100%, I have the answer. But I'm sure that together we can come up with a solution to that. So compliance with Senate Bill 4, just as a general rule, what Senate Bill 4 does is that it says that the local entity cannot adopt, enforce, or endorse a policy that prohibits or discourages the enforcement of immigration laws. And it goes into this semi-discussion about patterns and practice. And it identifies a lot of things that officials and departments can't do to limit police officers. And as we discussed, a lot of focus is placed on a definition of terms or non-definition of certain terms and one of them being the endorsement. I think that's what's caused a lot of cities across the state to have heartburn or at least some hesitation in how do we approach this Senate Bill 4 correctly and the litigation that's attached to it. Of course, there are violations, I believe there's a $25, 000 violation on an entity that violates Senate Bill 4 each per day, per day violation. And also as written, there's a Class A misdemeanor that can be applied to police chief that violates it. Or removal of office by elected appointed officials. The Western District, I'm not going too much into it, the Western District Court does go into heavy detail in explaining the First Amendment arguments from the perspective of the elected or appointed officials. And we'll get into that later. At this point, are there any just general questions that- >> [INAUDIBLE] >> Yeah, if you could go back to that last slide. >> Yes, sir. >> It seems to me that one of the things that I read during the information that was going out in the media, so I don't know how accurate it was, but one of the things that I had heard was that it would be possible for someone at the state level to remove someone from office, either that are appointed by a city council or even council members if they violated SB4, is that correct? >> As to the way it was drafted, that's correct. Now there is, both the plaintiffs being the city of El Cen izo, and so the plaintiffs bringing the action for kind of a timeout, injunctive relief for those who aren't familiar, it's a timeout. Don't enforce the law yet until we discuss the merits. And so, city of El Cenizo has their opinion about what that entails, and the state has their kind of argument of what that entails. We can go into more detail about that if you'd like. >> But generally the way it was drafted tends to be a question yes. >> Okay, so my question is, and we may want to answer this in closed session. Given the wording of the resolution as presented in our agenda, if we voted in favor of the resolution, could we be removed from office? >> So that goes to the topic of what it is to endorse a policy that would prohibit it. And the fifth court of appeals does discuss that. And even, so the fifth court of appeals mentions that the clause that says may not adopt, enforce, or endorse a policy under which the entity or department prohibits or material limits the enforcement of immigration laws. So the court there said that the interpretation of that, the injunction, the timeout was just to that term endorse. >> Okay. >> Okay. And so, for right now, an endorsement is okay. >> Well an endorsement is like a statement, isn't it? >> Let me walk that back a little bit, because not that it 's okay, but the court's not going to enforce that provision yet. >> Okay. >> It's temporary. >> It's temporary. >> But an endorsement is a statement, right, generally? >> So that's actually the dialogue that you'll see in the court's opinion in the Western district. And it really goes into much detail about what it is to endorse. And not to belabor the point, or I could if you like, but for our purposes here, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, which is the governing jurisdiction right now, has said we're not going to enforce that right now. >> Okay. But an endorsement might be something. >> A resolution might be interpreted as an endorsement. >> Somebody could bring in a march. Correct, on both sides of the aisle. >> Okay, thanks. >> Yeah, I was going to say, I mean based upon at least the draft resolution, whether it stays in that same language. I didn't see anything in there that said that we are endors ing a policy that was against SB4. It was just simply saying support of challenging the constitutionality of it. And the last sentence says that we would still support all federal and state laws. So that's- >> And that's actually a clause that I've helped other cities draft. >> Right, so yeah, I'm not too worried about running afoul of that. >> So with that said, there's no questions at this point. I'd like to bring up Deputy Chief Fletcher to kind of explain, and practice in real time, what does SB4 mean to the city of Denton. >> Yeah, and Chief, if I could just sort of frame that a little bit. I know you and I have talked about this sort of offline. Is, and I think you've got it prepared, just sort of what we're doing now or before the law. Because some of the law is in play. Some of the law is in effect. So prior to that, what were our policies and procedures on various questions you're going to address? And with what's currently in effect, what are our policies and procedures different than that? So you've got the floor. >> Well, the short answer to that is very little has changed. Pre-SB4 and post-SB4 in terms of the practical application for what we do day to day in serving our community. To kind of frame this, we'll start with the average police, community, citizen interaction rarely involves questions of someone's immigration status. It just isn't in the scope of what we do. We don't detain people, we don't stop people to ask them what their immigration status is or to check on their status, it's outside of the law. And state law provides in other places some very specific reasons that reasonable suspicion, probable cause, things we have to establish to be able to stop someone. And certainly to promulgate them to give us identification and answer questions. So Senate Bill 4 doesn't take those protections out. The vast majority of contacts we have with citizens are when they're victims or witnesses to crimes. There is specific language in Senate Bill 4 that prohibits asking immigration questions for people who are victims or witnesses. And quite frankly, in 26 years plus that I've done this job , there's never been a reason for me to ask someone who's a victim or witness what their immigration status was. It just isn't germane to what we're doing. So that part doesn't really apply. Where we run into issues where topics come up about someone 's status is if they're in custody. If we bring them to the municipal jail on other charges, there are questions, we are required to identify them fully . We're required to submit identifying data to federal and state databases about arrested persons. Typically what happens is, and again this is both post and or pre and post Senate Bill 4. Immigration officials, local officials, monitor our jail locks. They keep up with who's in our custody and they will on occasion reach out and ask us, contact us about someone that's in our jail and ask to talk to them. We have always cooperated with, like we would with any other agency, federal, state or local, with helping connect people. If that person chooses to talk to an official from some other agency, we will help set that up. Excuse me. Generally what happens is they will do a phone interview with someone and then they will tell us at the end of that phone interview if they plan to place a detainer on someone or not. If they tell us they are, they follow that up very quickly with the written documentation for that detainer and we will honor that. Just like we would honor a warrant from any other agency. We generally, we hold people in our jail long enough to take care of local charges. When they have posted bond on charge or paid or fined or laid out a fine or whatever that deals with the reason we have them in our jail. Our next step on that if they have a detainer is to transfer them to the county jail where they can be held. We're not equipped to hold people for lengthy periods of time and don't want to. >> So if I could maybe just get a clear, an understanding of that. So what I'm hearing you say is that, somebody, you may have detained or arrested somebody. And you, like any other jail, you log that on who's in the jail. I mean, I think people can look. I mean, is that public data? People can look to see who's logged in. So you're saying that federal authorities may monitor that. And if there's a desire, they may set, they may ask to set up a meeting if the person who's being detained or arrested agrees to it. >> Yes. >> To speak with them. And if they decide, if the federal authorities decide to issue an immigration detainer, you're saying that by the time typically the city PD gets that, the time for them to be released based upon the city charges or offenses alleged, is typically expired or what you can lawfully hold them for . And so if you do get a detainer, you transfer them to the county jail. Is that sort of a summary of what I'm understanding? >> Yes, sir. If you take in a bigger picture of anybody we arrest, regardless of their status. >> Right. >> If they come in on anything higher than a class C charge , then they get arraigned by the judge, the magistrate, within 24 hours, and the judge will set some sort of bond standard for them to post to get out of jail. If that person doesn't post a bond, or within the time when we're ready to transfer them, or they just say they're not going to post that bond, we'll transfer them to the county jail. We don't hold anyone for class B and above charges for any longer than to get them arraigned. So from that side, it really makes no change. If they have an immigration detainer, that's just one other thing they're not going to be able to bond out on, and so they'll go to the county jail. >> Okay. >> The odd part would be, for some reason, we had someone on a class C offense. And I just have really struggled in trying to prepare this to come up with a scenario where I could have someone on a class C charge in our jail that had a detainer, but even then we would take them to the county jail, as soon as they're done with our class C charge. >> Do you have any research or any data on how many, I think they're called, are they called ICE detainers? What are they called? >> Well, there is an official detainer, and then there is an advisory where they will call and say, and I turn this case around, they will call and say, please let us know, please contact us prior to this person being released from your jail. That's not a detainer, it's not a we have to hold them any period of time, it's just a courtesy, let them know if we 're going to, you know, if they're going to be released. >> Do you have any data on how many of the official detain ers, not the advisory ones, but the ones that are actually documented official that the DIT and PD has received? And then, I don't know, you pick a time frame, the last 24 months, 36 months, three, four years, do you have any idea on that? >> I don't have it with me. I know they're very rare. >> Okay. >> We don't, we just don't typically deal with a lot of the issues. But I could go back and try to look, one of the things that we identified as this discussion came along was finding ways to be able to track. When someone calls, because there's not a specific charge to put on it, it doesn't end up in our paperwork to go back and try to find someone that had something added on or contacted. But we can go back and certainly look to see what we can find. It's just, it's very challenging to try to come up with what numbers. >> No, I understand. What I'm hearing you say is, you might get some informal calls and requests, but as far as the official detainer document that is what they're supposed to be using. >> Right. >> Very, very rare and in the grand scope of things. >> Okay, Council Member Briggs. >> So the process that you just went through is a current process, right, that we do. And so on SB4, is there a difference in that process that is required or is it the same? >> Really, the language in SB4 is primarily focused on the cities and their departments. The law enforcement departments within them can't set up rules that limit our officers ability to work with immigration officials. There's nothing in there that says we have to do, we have to make notifications or make any changes to our operational policy. So the language of it doesn't really change what we do. What I've described for you is what we were doing long before Senate bill four came along. Now there's been some change certainly at the federal level with the attention that's placed on in the focus for immigration officials in terms of them reaching out and monitoring things, but they always have. But it doesn't change anything for what we do day to day, one way or the other. >> And so to follow up on that, you were talking about holding someone. And isn't there an issue in SB4 about holding somebody who hasn't been allowed to post bail? Or is that? >> Well, for us the piece is we're going to honor the request they give us and then we're going to transfer that person to the county jail . So we're not releasing them from custody, but we're not going to hold them any longer than we have to hold them for our purposes. And again, that's because we're not set up to hold people long term, however long it might take federal officials to work out transfers and those sort of things. We're not set up for that. And so we transferred to the county jail where they have medical facilities and things designed to hold people for extended periods of time . >> So what happens- >> Sorry, man. >> No, no, go ahead. Victor, you look like you wanted to sort of interject on her last question. So I wanted to make sure that Council Member Briggs at least got it. >> So, Council Member Briggs, you bring up the Fourth Amendment unreasonable seizure. And so what the court said, especially when it linked to discussing that the longer you keep somebody, the closer you are to getting to that violation, it did not come down to the merits of whether that was to be enforced or not or unconstitutional or not because it was kind of pre-enforcement at this point. They'll consider that on the merits as the case goes forward. But especially with the case of Denton Police, I think what the chief was trying to describe was, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you have an individual that comes in this afternoon. And so he'll get arraigned. The judge has one, two arraignments a day. >> Today or tomorrow morning? >> Or tomorrow morning. So they'll get arraigned. There's a paperwork process that just, as routine, just anybody that goes into the police department. Has to go through and so by the afternoon or evening, just on normal routine course, will either be released or transferred over to the county if there's a higher offense. And so what you see in local governments and counties getting involved in SB4 is really the concern from the county perspective because that's where, remember on the scale, like the court was saying, the longer you're detained under these detained requests, then maybe there is an argument of constitutionality or un constitutionality. And so at least for the local level, it's just a common routine practice that they book them, they get arraigned, and either they get released or transferred to county as normal course. >> And, I'm sorry, can I just follow up? >> Go ahead, sure, of course. >> So I'm just kind of walking through the process. So if that happens and someone, an individual is post bail and is released without being transferred, then under SB4, that means that local officials are in trouble, right? Or that police department. >> And I'll let the chief kind of add on this, but it comes down to were they notified in time before that release? I think what the chief was trying to describe is as quick as their process is, and as little time as they hold them just in the regular course, by the time ICE tracks their system and then files the detainer request, the system's already worked itself out. I don't know, chief, you can- >> Well, and to follow on to that, one of the questions and concerns we had, I know other law enforcement agencies did too, is if you have a verbal confirmation from immigration from ICE official, where does that stand in terms of legality versus having a written document that says here's an affidavit or here's a warrant or one of those things? Now, our experience has been that ICE, especially our local folks, have been very quick to send us documentation when they'll tell us upfront we're going to do that. We will honor their verbal request. We've never been put in a position yet to have to test how long we honor that verbal request because they followed up with that. Certainly, we were not just going to sit around and hold somebody and wait and wait because again, our goal in this situation as it is with every other situation is to get people out of our jail. Quite frankly, the longer somebody sits in our jail, the more they add to our liability and something happening and problems and we just don't want to do that. But that part hasn't been checked yet because we haven't had to face that challenge. But in general, our stance has been like it was pre-SP4. We're going to honor a verbal request and ask for a follow up. It's very similar to what we do on a warrant. If you're stopped on traffic and you have a warrant, we'll get a verbal confirmation through the radio system and that's followed up by written documentation that says here 's the warrant. >> But Chief, on that verbal component, that's not a requirement under the law. That's more of an accommodation. And if I'm not mistaken, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals , I'm not sure what the right terminology is, allowed to go into effect with some very limiting language on the detainer saying well, no, you still have to follow the detainers according to the current policies and procedures, paraphrase, of the federal rules and regulations, which is technically, I mean not technically, but officially, the detainer document is what really then puts a duty on whatever law enforcement agency it is to abide by that federal rule of once that official detainer is delivered or sent. Is that my understanding of that? >> Yes, it is a reference to the penal code. Yes. >> Yeah, okay. All right, thank you. Just wanted to make sure we followed up on that. So the verbal part of, yeah, we might honor it for some amount of time, but if it doesn't come in a few hours or if it doesn't, I mean it's not going to be days or anything like that. It's just a matter of hey, we'll get it to you in an hour or so. That's an accommodation to work with the federal agency, is that correct? >> Yes sir, and our experience has been it's not taking an hour to get them. It's certainly less than that. >> Okay. >> The next step, and that would be our supervisors would then start reaching back out to those immigration officials and saying we're waiting on this document, where is it? >> Yeah, okay. >> Part of that is because to be able to transfer them, we need that document to go with them that this is what they have. >> Gotcha. >> So we've not had those issues that have come up. One final point I'd like to point out in terms of clarity. There are very few times that we actually reach out and make contact on our own with ICE officials. And Chief Hal said this at a number of events and community meetings before this. There are times that we run into people who are posing a significant criminal threat to our community. And in those situations, we certainly will make use of any tool that's available. And if bringing in immigration officials for a particular situation is beneficial to protecting our community, we certainly will reach out to them and see if there's some assistance they can provide us. But again, we do that with any other federal agency or any other really tool in the toolbox we can use to help protect our communities. >> Of course, all right. Any other questions for Deputy Chief? Yes, Councilman Ryan. >> A couple. >> And then we'll go to you, Councilman. In the law, it refers to lawful detention or lawful arrest. Can you kind of explain a little bit what the lawful detention would mean? I know it's got a definition in the law, but it's kind of unclear. >> The layman's terms would be whether or not you're free to leave. If you're not free to leave, when I have enough probable cause or reasonable suspicion of any of the circumstances to hang on to you and not let you physically leave without facing some additional issue, then you've been lawfully detained. And that extends well beyond this situation to things you say and what information I can use and what I can basically make you do. That's the easiest way to understand it, is where you simply are no longer free. And that generally involves an officer telling you that. When you say, I'm just gonna go, you've been lawfully detained, you're not free to leave. And that's kind of the mark in the sand for where that fits , if that helps. >> And just another follow up on that. >> There's a light in there, there's a light, it's on. >> What'd you say, there's what? >> The light had come on, I didn't have my mic on. >> Gosh, I didn't see it, sorry. Sorry, Billy. >> Follow up question, there is a, and I've heard this quite often, this is quoting- >> Is your mic on, John? >> Yes, it's on now. >> Okay, well, he was just testing the light, I'm sorry. Okay, Billy, thanks. I'm sorry, John, go ahead. >> The law gives local police, including university police officers, the authority to ask people their immigration status. Is that something different? Is that actually in there from pre-SP4? Were you able to ask prior to? >> John, what section are you in the act? >> I'm not in the act, I'm on the record chronicle. And I'm trying to get clarity as to whether they are correct or not. >> The law gives police, I'm just trying to find out, did it change the police officer's ability to ask immigration status? >> So, Just so I get it correct, can you state one more time your question? >> Did the law change the ability of a police officer to ask immigration status that was not there before the law was passed? >> Okay, so I think what that quote leaves out is the portion that SP4 includes in that, once there's a determination by the police officer that there's reasonable suspicion, then it goes to the magistrate, the kind of independent magistrate who determines that there is probable cause, which is the arraignment process, that at that point, that 's typically when those detainer requests come in. And that's when the police department, if it's my understanding correct, in the past, that's when the police officers would get involved in asking status related questions or connecting them with ICE, the federal agents who ask those questions. >> But as far as you can tell, the law has not changed when that takes place or the ability of a police officer to do that. >> Correct, correct. >> Okay. >> Okay, any other questions for the chief? Keely, do you have a question for the chief? Okay. >> So I heard Mr. Charlie Wilkinson speak. I think he is head of some law enforcement association in Austin. And he basically said that we're adding an extra job to our police force without any compensation. Can you speak to that? Is this adding another layer to your job? >> The law itself isn't. I think there's probably some folks who would expect that we would be doing more work. Practically, I don't see it that way because, as I said to start, there's very little about this topic that generally comes up in the average police interaction with a citizen. They're just, said I've done this job a long time. I've never really had the need to ask somebody how they came to be, if they were born here, if they moved here. It just doesn't matter. And so I don't know from that side that, I didn't see anything as I tracked this before and read through it. I don't see anything in there that says I have to do anything other than as a supervisor here, I can't promulgate a policy or practice that prohibits officers from asking. But I'm not aware of a time that I couldn't have asked before. When somebody's status was, I just never saw the need to do it. So from that side, I guess if you put an expectation that some officers were going to start asking a lot of these questions, then certainly if the law said you have to ask in these situations, I would see that more as an unfunded mandate where you're asking us to take on additional duties that without any real resources to back it up. >> So they're not saying that you have to, but they're saying that you can't, let's see. >> You can't prohibit them from asking. >> You can't prohibit it, but you don't have to. >> Right. >> But that doesn't really make sense. >> So okay, so pretty much basically to sum it up, we are already doing some of what SB4 says, but there's some other stuff that goes along with it that isn't what we're doing and what officials and local law enforcement haven't done in the past as far as what we can and can't do as far as immigration status. >> Well, I think the easiest way to wrap it up is that SB4 says we can't have these policies. And that if we have those policies, it goes greatly to tell what all can happen if you do have those policies. We've never had a policy that put us in violation of SB4, and we didn't have it before and we don't have it now. And so really, that's why I said that the sum effect of SB4 on us in terms of actual operation is little to none, because it isn't changing what we're already doing. >> That's, you want to add to that? That's the heart of SB4 is that the city and the police department can't set these rules up to keep officers from doing this. And I think really, as you went through the legislative process, it was done in response to specific groups saying we're not going to do it. And we're just not going to do it. And so the law was intended to target those folks and say you can't have the policy. So from us, we never had those policies, never had a need to have those policies. And so by my assessment looking through it, we're already in compliance with SB4. >> Okay, any other questions for the chief? Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. >> Sir. >> So, Mayor, I do have a timeline to discuss the history of Senate Bill 4 and how it's come through the litigation process. I'm not sure if the council is interested in that. I can skip those slides if you'd like, or get down. >> Yeah, I think we're fairly familiar with the procedures of how we got here. If we could just go to the meeting, and if there's a question coming back to the timeline that's germane to us moving forward or having an understanding of what the substance of the bill is, then we can certainly go back and revisit that. >> So maybe if I could start with the most recent decision that came out of Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. And what it did was it reinforced part of what the Western District Court held and it lifted or clarified some of those points. But Mayor Watts, something that you were speaking on about detention request is this quote down here and it is from the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals and it garners rec itation. So I'll read it. The comply with honor and fulfill requirement does not require detention pursuant to every ICE detainer request. Rather, the comply with honor and fulfill provision mandates that local agencies cooperate according to existing ICE detainer practice and law. So that's where I think the chief is coming from in saying, we're not in violation, we're continuing to cooperate and share information which I think the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals really said that still is allowed, the sharing of information with agencies. And so that's where we're at. I can go into the five points of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals expanded on what was upheld by the Western District and which were clarified. I can go into that or I can take more questions if you want . >> Yeah, I think it would be good just to give your thoughts, go into those five, because we are talking about a lawsuit, we are talking about pleadings. And we've got a 95 page injunction order that has been released and we've got a appeals court review and opinion. >> Much shorter, much shorter. >> Yes, so that's really the heart of this discussion that we're having. And so I think it's important just to give a brief summary. >> Okay, so I have the five main points of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals locked in on and how they clarified it. So the first point being the clause that states, as agencies, local government should not prohibit or materially limit persons who in effect have authority that may impact immigration. >From assisting or cooperating with federal immigration officers as reasonable or necessary, including providing enforcement assistance. >> Are these five points on a slide or are you just reading these? >> I am reading them from the opinion, but I have copies of that opinion you can read along with me. >> Okay, no, we're good, yeah. Anybody need a copy of that? Okay, all right, go ahead. >> Okay, so what the court said in there, and if you have it or you have it on a web based pages four and five, the court granted the state stay on the junction with one clarification is that it acknowledges that the materially limit term may need clarifying. And so the injunction remains in place for that phrase. And so what that means to the city is that, I forget who asked me the question earlier about endorse ment. >> Councilmember Gregory. >> Councilmember Gregory. >> So this is in the same category of kind of temporary, we can function in that realm. Again, the injunction is temporary, determination on the merits is to follow. But for now, it's saying they're not going to hold your feet to the fire when we're talking about materially limiting. So if we get that close to Splitton-Hares, that's still enjoined from enforcement. >> Because that was sort of brought up under the vagueness argument as far as putting people on notice. >> Yes, at the Western. >> What violation would constitute, or what actions would constitute the violation of the law. >> Right, right. Yeah, so the endorsement definition or lack of definition was discussed in the first amendment. I believe the 14th amendment provisions were dealing with materially limiting. So the second provision that they addressed was the discussion we've been having, and I won't really repeat it, but the discussion on the endorsement language. That's on page five, and I'll just read it. So interpretation of the injunction is that only the word endorse wasn't joined. And it continues to have in place the other SB4 prohibitions on adopting or enforcing such policies. So that would be to Councilman Gregory's question. We're not dealing with endorsement right now. Passing a resolution would be a safe option at this point. But to come and adopt an official policy in something that 's written from the police chief, that would still be upheld as in violation of Senate Bill 4 . So on point three, the injunction against prohibition against adoption of enforcement of policies that materially limit enforcement of immigration laws. This may seem repetitive, but in there, the court denied the state's argument in that case, until it can be reviewed later on the merits. The same thing goes for the fourth point, which was about the injunction against prohibition, against the pattern and practice that materially limits the enforcement of immigration laws. You can see the theme is that the court has genuine concerns about the lack of definition over endorsement and materially limiting. And so the fifth circuit court of appeals denied the state 's request for a stay on that issue. And the last one is actually the language we have here. So this is a reference to the requirement of law enforcement agencies to comply with, honor, and fulfill any immigration detainee requests issued by ICE . And that's a provision out of the code of criminal procedure. And in that, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals granted the state's request for a state of injunction. However, it issued this clarifying language which in our discussions in the legal department is that it doesn't put the chief in a position where he's in violation of Senate Bill 4 if he maintains status quo. And those were the five points. So again, where do we get all this information? We have reached out to representatives from LULAC and MALDE F to kind of give you a history on those interactions. We did reach out to LULAC, a gentleman over at LULAC referred us to NETE over at MALDEF. NETE is the attorney in charge for the briefing on the merits within the first Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. They do have a separate in-house individual, Fatima, who is in charge of the amicus brief that's going to be submitted to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. But the amicus brief is not being drafted by MALDEF, it's being drafted by Mr. Hamilton out of New York. And we reached out today to ask on the status of that draft . And he's expecting the earliest that that draft will be finished, will be Thursday morning. Since the past couple weeks, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals reduced the briefing schedule. So Mr. Hamilton has a lot of work to do in a very short period of time, but it was unexpected. It was unexpected to the members of LULAC and MALDEF. But they are trying to gather support for that amicus brief and any other support that elected officials or governmental entities can provide for them. So just real quick, our kind of analysis within our department is, and maybe I rushed into this without explaining this very key component, is the difference between intervening, being a party to the lawsuit, and as to joining an amicus brief. An amicus brief is just a, you're saying I'm a friend of the court and this is what I would like to say to the court in support of this lawsuit. Elson Isle's briefing schedule was shortened from 1026 to 1020. And in contributing to the amicus brief, MALDEF's outside council requires some additional information to actively participate in the drafting of the amicus. And then here, also MALDEF does anticipate having enough time for the cities to review the amicus before the submission deadline. They're trying to get it the day before, so maybe one day. But that's still not guaranteed. Also MALDEF is accepting resolutions in support of the legal efforts to be attached to the brief itself. So we come to the point where we can discuss what direction you would have our department pursue. We do have an additional item for consideration relating to the resolution that we briefly discussed. We can sign on to the MALDEF, or the city can determine that it wants to sign on to the amicus brief. We won't from now until Thursday, we just don't think we'll have enough time to report to you after reviewing that brief. Probably not the most viable option. It's still there, but not probably not the most viable option. Individual council members may sign on to the amicus brief in their individual capacity. Still not the most viable for some reasons, the status above. You just typically don't want to sign a contract you haven 't read before. That rationale, also approve resolution in support of MALDE F's legal efforts being the most viable option. And I can actually provide a list of people entities that have both signed off on the amicus with the Western District and also those with the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, if anybody wants that information . >> So this goes back to the procedural status. So right now, people are filing amicus briefs for the Fifth Circuit. So is there going to be a hearing regarding the injunction? And then it goes back down to the federal court before? >> I'm sorry, my mic was off. So this goes back to the procedural process of where we are . So when you talk about amicus briefs for the Fifth Circuit, that's the appeals court. >> Yes, that's correct. >> So what's happened is they issued their original ruling on the injunction. >> On the Western District's injunction, correct. >> Yes, and so now they're having a hearing in the Fifth Circuit to do? >> To determine the merits of, the remaining merits of the case that didn't go to the actual. >> For the injunction or just- >> For the injunction, correct. >> Okay, all right, so the merits still have to be litig ated in the Western District? Western? >> It's my understanding that- >> It's all in the Fifth District now, all of it. >> Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals is my understanding. >> Okay. >> And reading the cases. >> Okay. So also, just to discuss further process, is this has a potential of being litigated up to the US Supreme Court. I know we had, City of McAllen had a case where it filed a lawsuit against the FCC for 64 non-regulation of the wireless towers, and so we filed a lawsuit in the Fourth Circuit. We lost, and we requested a petition before the US Supreme Court. We were denied, but nonetheless, that option is still there . So this may not be the last leg of this litigation. >> Okay, all right. Okay, all right, any questions so far for, and just to take care of some of these. If individual council members want to sign on to amicus brief, they don't need consent of this council. That's certainly something that they can do individually as sitting council members. Am I correct in that? >> That is correct. >> Okay, all right. All right, so I guess at this point, we have a draft resolution. We don't have to discuss that in closed session, I wouldn't think, or we're probably not allowed to. And so we're gonna go ahead, and if there's questions on the draft resolution, let's talk about that as well. And of course, we'll repeat this same conversation, most likely out in the regular meeting. But Council Member Riggs, did you have a- >> Well, yeah, just one for clarification, because people are referring to this as sanctuary cities bill. And I just want to go on record for the people out there, is Denton currently a sanctuary city? >> So the term sanctuary city is actually something that has been- >> Politicized. >> A creature of the media. >> Right. >> And so nowhere in Senate Bill 4 does it refer to anywhere as being a sanctuary city. >> Right. >> Which is Senate Bill 4 says what the police department can or cannot do. >> Right, I just wanted that for clarification, in that we are currently not one. And that if we sign in support of this resolution, it doesn 't mean that we are going to be one. So I mean, I just kind of wanted, there's a lot of hype out there and media on that. And that this is not about that, this is specific- >> I agree. >> To the immigration, so okay, thank you. >> And I appreciate that Council Member Riggs, because I think that you're right. My understanding is a sanctuary city is a city who's passed official policies. It has official policies that prohibit enforcement of federal immigration laws or state laws. And the city has never had a policy like that. The city most likely, we haven't had one, we don't have one now. And the resolution affirmatively states that whatever is the outcome of anything, the city of Denton is going to abide by federal and state law. So unfortunately, it has been sort of categorized and the narrative has been if you support the lawsuit, you sort of are in support of sanctuary cities. If you don't support it, you're really not in favor of certain types of communities. And this is simply a legal argument. I mean, that's all this is. So I would open it up for questions on the resolution if that's where we are or, I mean, Council Member Ryan. >> Thank you, Mayor. There's some of the language in the resolution that actually is what we've been having all along that you've got two sides against each other. So I just cannot move forward with the line in here of a divisive language expressed by many in favor of Senate Bill 4. I think that there's been some language on both sides. I believe that to say there's been divisive language about Senate Bill 4 is a true statement. But I mean, I see this as I explained this at my town hall last night that a few years ago, our citizens passed a fracking ban and Austin decided to come down with HB 40 and the Travis County Sheriff decided that they wanted to not follow federal laws. And so the people in Austin came down with SB 4, both of them are them just trying to take some control. I definitely agree with some of what the fifth district court said are too broad. So I'm opposed to certain sections of this and I would like to be able to move forward with supporting making sure that this bill is constitutional. And I'd like for this resolution to state it in such a way that that's what we're looking for is to make sure that it's, we don't want to have an unconstitutional law on the books period and so I've got some language we can kind of get into here in a minute. But I just feel like SB 4 being reactionary, it's a bill that shouldn't have ever had to been put in place because all of us, when we're sworn into office swear to uphold the laws and ordinances of our city, of our state and of our country. And if that was actually what was happening, this bill wouldn't have been necessary. >> So I'm just gonna go ahead and ask you, because I'm sure we all have some other comments, but you said you have some language. >> Yes. >> Let's just get it out there so we can talk about it. >> Okay, so on section two, be it further resolved that the mayor and city council do not agree with some of the terms of SB 4. Support legal efforts to have the law reviewed by the courts as to its constitutionality and preemptions. And then we pick back up with the portion about the city will continue to comply with all laws. >> Okay, so let me make sure what you've said is that first , do not agree with the divisive language expressed by many in favor of SB 4. You've basically taken that out altogether. And then go back over that next sentence so I can write down what you, cuz you went real quick and I- >> Basically, I cut from where the first colon is after the, be it resolved that the mayor and city council cut everything from there until we get into and will continue to comply with all state and federal laws to preserve safety and welfare of the citizens of Denton. And in that spot, I would insert, do not agree with some of the terms of SB 4, support legal- >> Okay, hold on, hold on, I'm gonna try and write this down. >> Okay. >> Do not agree with some of the terms- >> Listed in SB 4. >> Listed in SB 4. >> Okay. >> Support legal efforts. >> Legal efforts. >> To have the law reviewed by the courts. >> To have law, okay. >> As to its constitutionality and any preemptions. >> As to constitutionality. >> Okay, okay, all right, okay. Yes, go ahead. >> So on that line that says support the city's legal efforts to object to SB 4 on the grounds that such law should be reviewed by the courts as unconstitutional and preempted, you're wanting to take out the object language? >> Yes, I mean, I'm basically wanting to cut the language from the first do not agree with the devices all the way down. >> Yeah, I got the devices line, but you kept do not agree with, you said do not agree with some of the terms listed in Senate Bill. And then you said support the city of El Cinezo's legal efforts, but then you said something different than object. >> I did not say support the city. >> I'm sorry, what did you say? >> This is do not agree with some of the terms listed in SB 4. We support legal efforts to have the law reviewed by the courts as to its constitutionality. >> Okay, hold on. How is that different from the city of El Cinezo's legal efforts to object to? It's literally the same thing. >> Literally it is, but divisively it's different. >> I'm not even putting a judgment on it from a procedural standpoint. It is an objection. So calling it something besides an objection is a political decision, which is fine. But I just want to be clear that it's the same thing. And that's, I mean, taking out the word object is also a divisive thing to do, because by law, it's an objection. >> Okay, all right. Yes, yes. My thought is, better said, my question. Why are we wordsmithing this tonight? For example, DME, we had a presentation today. We're going to come back and they're going to answer our questions. Why are we wordsmithing this tonight? >> I don't know if I would call it wordsmithing. We have an action item on the agenda for a resolution. >> Agreed. >> And so I think like anything else, this is a draft that was submitted to the council by staff. And so I think anytime we have any ordinance or anything, we have the opportunity with council consensus to modify. I mean, we will put restrictions on zoning classification. You did it when you were on planning and zoning. Sometimes the zoning will come and instead of taking it as it was staff recommendation, you might put overlays, you might put additional restrictions. So I think it's, I mean, I don't know if I would consider it wordsmithing. But again, if this council doesn't want to do it at this time, this council can decide that's not what they want to do. >> I will just tell you, I was surprised that there was an action item. We just got the presentation ten minutes ago. >> Timing issue. >> And now we've had no time to talk to anyone, our constituents, no one to break down Victor's eloquent and wonderful presentation. >> Council member Hussman, I can give you a reason for that . This was originally scheduled, correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. City Manager, I think on the 24th of October. But what happened was the court shrunk these dates and there was some request by a council member. That because if the date had passed, if we had done it on the 24th, it would have been moved. We wouldn't even, it would have been non-actionable, we were out of time. So that's the reason is we wanted to make sure we were at least in the time frame that if the city wanted to do anything, that they could do something, doesn't mean we have to, but the deadline is Friday. >> That's right. >> Am I correct on that? >> Councilman Hussman, yeah, just to reinforce that is more over than that, just last week because we're not a party to the suit, we didn't receive the information directly. If you're a party to the suit, you get these tickers that they go send to you and okay, this change has been made to the briefing schedule. It was our communication with organizations like Mildef and Lulak that informed us that briefing schedule got shortened from the 26th to the 20th. And so if there is maybe an apparent rush, it's just to get it, if you do want to act, it's just a hard deadline at the first circuit court of appeals has said, we're not going to take anything after the 20th. And so. >> Well, thank you. >> So to my, I'm sorry, go ahead, Aaron. >> No, I was just going to add to the mayor is that this presentation which was set to the 24th was before the briefing schedule by the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals even came out. So that came out and then the reduced timeline going from the 26th to the 20th, which is this Friday, caused us to move this up to the 17th . So we're reacting to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals and their hard and fast deadline. But I just wanted to add that extra piece in there. >> Yes, so my concern is just that. I just, I think the, especially given the fact that each council member is free to express themselves. We're not impeding any action. But as a body, we see this time and time again. DME was in a hurry, so we did it. Not that this has that type of repercussions, but I'm just saying, I don't understand. You just missed stuff, right? I mean, again, to consider signing something that we don't read is. >> Well, first of all, I don't think anybody's advocating for that. >> No, no, no, I'm just saying that it's a look into what we're, it just seems like it's a lot, which is okay. But it needs to be, if we're going to do it, let's do it right. That's the only thing. I may be odd man out, but that's my thing. I just don't, I'm never in a hurry legally because things get missed. And I understand that they don't take things late, but I'm trying to tell you, I just listened to a hearing, again, referencing the same thing I did last week with the attorneys for NFL Players Association brought something day up in the middle of the day, and they took it. I mean, it happens. >> Yeah, and just to maybe expand and making the distingu ishing feature in this case is that our 72 hour period to review things. At least for the amicus brief, right? The resolution, it's here, if we wanted to come back, I just don't think the notice would work out to have it submitted by Friday. To post another meeting, emergency meeting. >> Yeah, I mean- >> Not emergency meeting, but just another meeting. >> You don't have to pass a resolution tonight. I mean, you can pass it later on. It just won't be- >> Attached to the- >> Attached to the Maldives amicus brief if that's what you want, the traditional direction you wanted to give to us. Otherwise, option two is available to any council member between now and Friday. >> Or another option we discussed is attaching this to a possible future step at the US Supreme Court. But that's not guaranteed. >> I mean, again, there may be no traction there. I'm just, that's- >> No, no, agree, agree. >> I just, yeah, it is- >> Sure, okay. And of course, you'll have to- >> He's dictating, we're writing, we're going to type it up real quick for 6/3. It just seems a bit. >> Well, I'm not sure that's exactly how, I mean, we still haven't had a discussion on it. >> Sure. >> But yeah, but what, well, certainly everybody at this table will have an opportunity to vote how they need to vote on any action item, whether it be this one or anything up in the data. So if it goes against what you believe, then you certainly have the opportunity to- >> Sure, so not speaking what's going to happen, that's vo icing my concern. >> Okay, Council Member Duff? >> I will be voting no. >> Okay. >> I don't see the point in all this. >> Okay. >> I do not think we need to get that involved with it, and so I'm definitely a no. And I'm going with my constituents. >> Sure, okay, all right. Anybody else? Yes, Council Member Griggs. >> I am in favor. I do believe that we've had several citizens for several weeks come out and speak to us. So we are aware of how our citizens feel. I've spoken with different people and have received messages. I've received one or so against using very divisive language in the emails. But for me, it's not political. There are some real concerns about the constitutionality of some of the language and things that it puts on local police and local officials. And for me, hearing the chief, I know that there are some things that we are doing and I know that we are going to continue to do them, and that is great. But there are some things in here in the language that I disagree with, not necessarily in the process that our police department is handling it, but with the bill. So I am in support of the resolution and if it is denied, I will be signing individually. >> Sure, okay. Yes, Council Member Gregory. >> I too am in support and I think it does have to do with the city. Because I think that Senate Bill 4, especially the language about prohibiting city councils or city officials from making an endorsement. I think that's a violation of the First Amendment. And I don't think the state has any business or any right to impede my freedom of speech, just because I'm an elected official. Nor should they try to intimidate me that I would be removed from office for expressing my opinion. I think that that alone makes Senate Bill 4 very flawed. I would be open to some of the changes that you've suggested, if that's the only way that we get four votes. I think removing the language about the city and the objection is not necessary, because I think that we're doing this because of their lawsuits. I would rather see that language in, if you wanted to take that phrase out about- >> The divisive language. >> The divisive, I could live with that. But again, if we've got four votes anyway, then I'd just as soon leave it as it is. >> Okay, yes, Mayor Pro Tem. >> I'm okay with removing that first sentence that Council Member Ryan mentioned about do not agree with the divisive language, I agree with that removal. I'm okay with removing many and changing it to some, because I think that gets us closer. Again, I think we are objecting on constitutionality grounds, and I agree with Council Member Gregory. I came in here kind of on the fence, to be quite honest, and as I've read the opinion, it just infuriates me. As an attorney, it infuriates me. Practicing immigration law, it infuriates me. The constitutional issues make me want to throw up. And I just, it's really not even about immigrants. What it's about is control from what the legislature wants and the opinions that they have and what other people are allowed to say. And that's, it's un-American. I view this whole thing as un-American. You can say it's about immigrants, but it's really not, in my opinion. So I'm in favor of signing on as a resolution, and I'll be signing on as an amicus as well. In my capacity as a practicing immigration attorney. >> Okay, I've got a question for you all. I mean, when I knew this was coming, not the resolution, but this discussion. I'll be truthful, I was anxious. Because I didn't know enough about the whole situation to be able to have an informed opinion for myself. And so I pulled the 97 page order and read it. And then I read the appeals court. And what I realized was, the narrative of this has really gotten skewed. The narrative of this has been placed in the political realm. And I'm just going to be candid. Some people say if you don't support, if you support SB4, your four sanctuary cities, I mean if you support SB4, you look down on other people in your community, all right? If you don't support it, then you're for sanctuary cities. Well, that's furthest from the truth on any of the legal arguments. And so people will spend this the way they need to spend it . My whole point in this resolution is do I as a mayor, look at Senate bill as a whole, read the opinion of the injunction, having read it, and see that legislation was passed that expressly denies First Amendment rights to all kinds of people. And so for me, this is just a legal argument. And I can tell you, just like this council was committed to when House Bill 40 overturned our fracking ordinance, guess what ? We comply with the law. So I'm more than assured that whatever is the final outcome of this particular litigation, this review of the constitutionality and/or pre emption of SB4, the city of Denton will continue to do what it's always done, and that is comply with the law. And so any notion that approval of this is accepting a sanctuary city status is very misguided and quite frankly pretty narrow minded. So my concern is this. And it may be petty. So this is the only thing that I would like to see change because this is how I'm approaching it. When you, I agree with, do not agree with the divisive language expressed by many in favor of SB4, Senate Bill 4, remove that. Do not agree with some of the terms listed SB4? Sure. Support the city of L. How do you pronounce that? >> Siniso >> Siniso >> Siniso >> Siniso >> Siniso >> Okay, I just want to make sure I get it right. >> We'll work on it, man. >> Yes. Legal efforts to object to SB4 on grounds that such a law should be reported by the courts, I would just simply like to say for its constitutionality and/or preemption. Because to me, that's really what, from my perspective, I can support because I do think that it should be reviewed for its constitutionality. I mean, some of this law is in place right now. And most likely, it's the parts of the law that give people the most concern. And that is, are officers going to come up? And are they going to ask people about their immigration status for any reason whatsoever? Well, I think we've heard from our police chief and we've heard from our attorneys that that part was almost just a memorialization of the current operations and practices of what we're doing . Now the things that go further, and they do limit. You cannot ask somebody about if they're a witness or a victim unless you're investigating some other crime according to the Texas Penal Code. So there are some limitations, but there's some really, really strong language that's very vague. That from our constitution could possibly violate due process because we don't have proper notice of what constitutes a violation. And there's certainly language that says you cannot say, write, or do anything that may go against this. And I want to read you something. If I can, I might have to find it. But this is out of the appeals court. I'm sorry, out of the injunction report of 95 to 97 pages. And so they talk about this idea of endorsement and violation of free speech. So they go into the actual debate terminology and the debate during the Senate and they pull out some of the discussion. So I'm just going to read it. So here's one of them. Senator Garcia asked Senator, yes. I'm on page 38. I'm on page 38. Sure. >> You have one. >> Thanks, sir. >> And I wish I could find the other one. Okay, so page 38, not the middle of the page, it's set apart. It's a single spaced or instead of double spaced. Says Senator Garcia, so if the sheriff or police chief subm its an opinion piece to their local paper about this topic and they pretty much say we really don't need it, just what many of the police law enforcement officers say during the hearing. So forth and so on. The response is I would say, yeah, so is this endorsing a sanctuary policy that would put them out of office? I would say it would because it effectively is creating a culture of contempt and non-compliance. Senator Garcia, so their free speech rights go out the window? Senator Perry, I don't know that it's a free speech issue if you've been elected to uphold the law. You don't get the right as a free speech to go out and not uphold the law. Well, the thing is endorsing has nothing to do with uphold ing. There's specific language in this bill that says you cannot pass a policy that prohibits enforcement of immigration laws, federal immigration laws, and state laws. Just saying it doesn't create a law. And then there's one other one that says, and I wish I could find it. >> About the viewpoint discrimination? >> It was about where if you're an elected official, somehow you don't get, somehow you have limited free speech rights. >> And I'm not going to go on and on because it just really saddens me. >> It's on page 3435. >> It's on page 3435? Okay. Do you have that? >> Yeah, it's public officials at the local level. >> What paragraph is that on? >> Let me find it here. Have it noted out. >> Here it is. >> Well, that's where it says they don't relinquish it, but some of them say that. But my point is, this is a legal matter. And most likely, some of this law is going to stay in place . Some of it's probably going to get overturned. And from what I can tell, based upon the injunction and the opinion, we're almost just going to have the status quo. So it's been turned into a political issue of depending on your position on this bill without any review. Folks, we have three forms of government. We have the executive, legislative, and judicial. We all know that. We have it for a reason. I respect the right of anybody in this state, in this room, in this nation, if they believe a law is unjust, if they believe that it's unconstitutional, they are afforded the right to file any action within the courts to ask for that to be reviewed. That is the absolute bedrock of our democracy. So that is why I would support the resolution with the changes that I've asked for, not because it's regarding illegal immigration, or it's about whether you're conservative or liberal, or it's about any other thing such as that. It's about, is the law constitutional under the Constitution of the United States of America? And if people can't support, I mean, I certainly understand and respect your decision. If people can't support a resolution that says, I would support anything that will ask for the constitutionality of a law to see that, to make sure that we do not have our constitutional rights infringed. I'm all for it. So if we could make just those two adjustments and change the unconstitutionality to the constitutionality and preemption, given all the other things, I can support this. Because it's a legal issue for me. So I think, Council Member Duff, yes, yes, sir. >> Yeah, I guess this whole bill, the reason that it came up and maybe they didn't do it right, okay, but the essence of it is, I don't hear anybody talking about it. Basically, we have places in this country that are giving sanctuary to criminals that are illegal. And that we don't need, we need to get rid of them. We don't need, the DACA, I mean, what do we got? Tending and people here that are here illegally? We're not gonna round those people up and send them out, because most of them, the vast majority of them, they're law-abiding. We're not gonna do that. But I think this is gonna go through the courts and the courts are gonna decide. >> Absolutely. >> And it doesn't make any difference what we do here. >> I probably would agree with that in the sense of, but to me, the resolution is just simply saying, for me, can't speak for you. For me, I don't have a problem supporting something that says, hey, I don't mind if the courts look at it to see if it's constitutional. I certainly would not be in support of the alternative, and that is, I don't want anybody to look at it, whether it's constitutional or not. So, and you say there may be cities in this country. There may be. All I know is the city of Denton abides by the law. We follow federal and state law. We have, and I believe we've had community meetings with the Hispanic community to try to share some of the facts and truths about our police policies. To help alleviate some of these fears, which I think we need to continue doing. And I can assure you that our police department has assured us and assured the community that whatever they're doing now before the law, the law's not really requiring much on them. Actually, what the law's, the law basically is a response to Travis County. The law was a response to Travis County. And just like HB 40 was a response to the city of Denton, that was Council Member Ryan's observation when he and I just had some discussion a few weeks back. So I want to give credit where credit's due. That's not my idea. So it's unfortunate that it's become such a volatile issue based on everything that it's not, and that is it's about the law. It's not about anything else. So I'm done with my, what did we call it? What did that call? What do you call that? Soliloquy? Filibuster. I call it a filibuster. I'm through with my filibuster. Yes. >> I call it eloquent. >> Well, I don't know if I call it eloquent. >> Did I say that with a straight face? >> No, you didn't. >> Okay. Mayor, I like the changes that you've proposed and I would ask, and I'm ready to move forward with it if the department can, during our breaks. >> Well, we have to see if we have a consensus on that. >> I'm in support of the language that you proposed. >> Okay. >> I am as well. >> Yes, Council Member Hussbett. >> Can you help me understand this line? Whereas the prescribed period to join the lawsuit filed by El- >> Seniso. >> Seniso has expired. What's the value in that? >> It's, usually, it's just kind of give you a background to why you're doing a resolution. It's just- >> I mean, if you want- >> It's just purely factual. >> Yeah, but I get it. But it doesn't, like, the style of the case and whereas in the beginning, that's all kind of structural of the case. This kind of is like, by the way, this passed and I don't know that it adds value. Here's my thought. Generally, I distance from all things equating to some city that we've never been to, you can't pronounce and don't know what they're doing. It's just like, hey, I'm with them, what are they doing? So the style of the case is organic, it has nothing to do with it, it's just the style of the case. But when you get into this, I mean, I get it, it doesn't do harm, but I don't understand- >> Are you wanting to just take that whereas out? >> Yes, that would be- >> I can explain why that's in there. Is initially, this came to us, to the legal department on a concluding item section of one of your meetings, to look into the viability of intervening into this lawsuit . So we looked into that and joining the lawsuit. So we looked into that and provided the legal status report to you on August 25th. That ship has sailed away. I mean, there was, so when we passed these resolutions for our records, if anybody was to look up this, they would see that, if anybody was to ask the question, why didn't the city join the lawsuit? Well, there's a whereas recital in here, factual recital that actually says, the time for intervening when this was adopted was already passed. >> Yeah, but that also presumes that we would have given the opportunity. >> It could, it could. >> So we'll just put it to the council, sir, are you wanting to remove that whereas? >> Yeah, I'd like to remove that and another thing I'd like to do is wait, not wait in perpetuity. But we have people speaking this evening. And so there's a big argument that we have as a council that we make decisions before we hear from people. So we have in the opening speech, there's Chris Heist speaking. Obviously, when the item gets called, there's going to be speaking. And there may be points that are significant that we're going to ignore if we don't hear them out. And then out there in the other room maybe finalize. I get it having a draft, but I don't think we should final ize anything or. >> No, this isn't finalizing anything. This is just saying prepare a draft. We can even have some copies out there for the community to read before the meeting. >> That's a great idea. >> And if there's things said during the meeting that council decides that we want to make an alteration, if we have a consensus, we can do it. Great thing is this is about consensus of the council in voting. So everybody gets to vote their conscience and their beliefs no matter what they are and how this all plays out. So Council Member Gregory. >> Yeah, I'd prefer to lead that whereas the city, it's too late to get involved in the legal lawsuit. But that's not a deal breaker for me. And I wanted to point out also that we're just again working on a draft. >> Right. >> And that we could certainly change it based on information or we might hear information out there and somebody who said that they were going to vote for it decides to vote against it because of information in the thing here. Or wants to make another change to it. But this is still a draft. It's just updating a draft that we seem to be more on the same page with to go forward to the next level. >> Can I also make another maybe possible modification? Because I really, what I want this resolution for me to show is that it's strictly, it's limited strictly to the law and that this city council is committed to upholding the law. That to me has to be the strongest thing. And so if we could, that last where it says in preemption and it says and will continue to comply. If we could put something to the fact that and has and will continue. In other words, let's affirm that we have done this in the past. That we have complied with the law. We have protected our citizens. We have not done things that police officers, police and community shouldn't do. Those are the two things I want this resolution to stand for. We are objecting under legal grounds and we are affirming that we follow the law which indirectly says we are not a sanctuary city. That we will follow and comply with federal laws. Yes. >> Do you want to make it a recital? That way it's at the very beginning, whereas the city of Denton has complied with all federal and state laws and will continue to do so. >> Yeah, but I guess, but I think it being in the actual section of the resolution. >> You want a separate section? >> We could. >> You want a strong statement is what I'm saying. >> I want to, whereas if it's in the recitals, it's sort of a storytelling. But if we were affirming, it can be a separate section. We can just add it there. It doesn't matter to me because I can always go back and point to it if somebody says, hey, you guys are, no, here it is. Here's what, if we agree, if we have four affirmative votes for whatever is the final draft. That we are affirming, that we will, and I don't even know if we need to, I mean, that we will continue to comply with all federal and state laws to preserve the safety and welfare of all citizens of Denton residents and visitors. Implied in that is whatever the outcome is of the litigation. But even if you want, I mean, whatever the outcome is, we 're going to comply as long as it's finalized. As long as it becomes law. Go ahead. >> I would think you could just make that section three. >> Okay. >> Right. >> And start it off with, we have been compliant with law and use the work group. >> Do so even, yes, yeah. Because it's just, it's important. I think it's important. And I met with a group of Denton High School students who were in the LULAC, I think, group there in Denton High. And I'll probably share this, I mean, it almost makes me misty eyed to hear the story of one of the young girls. And I said, any questions? And the first question she asked me, the only question that was asked me. Have you ever been discriminated against? And I had to say, as quickly as probably the question came out of her mouth, is no I have not, that I'm aware of. No, I have not. And so I encourage them to write the council members and share their stories. Maybe some will be here to share their stories tonight, but I just know from Police Chief Fletcher and Police Chief Howe, and from the members of this community, we will comply with the law. What that means is respecting the rule of law and also respecting the personhood of our citizens. And we can do that. We can do both of those. So is there any other questions on this particular open session? Because we've got a closed session scheduled to discuss some things. Any other questions? You guys have sort of a draft. Yes. >> Can I repeat maybe what I have? >> Yes, go ahead. >> Okay, so what I- >> Can I make a suggestion regarding that? Given what you just said, Mayor, in that section three, how about adding a statement? And we will always strive to protect the constitutional rights of all of our citizens. >> Sure. >> And I just want to make sure that whatever we wind up, it's a strong affirmation of our commitment to the law and our commitment to our citizens and the Constitution. Yes, yeah. Okay. All right, yes, so. >> So for section two, we have be it further resolved that the Mayor and City Council do not agree with some of the terms listed in Senate Bill 4 and support Esselstyn's legal efforts to object to Senate Bill 4 on the grounds that such law should be reviewed by the courts for its constitutionality and preemption. >> Yes. >> Then go into section three and starting a new section that say that the Mayor and City Council have and will continue to comply with all state- >> I would probably say the city, the city of Denton. The city of Denton has and will continue to comply. And continue with that sentence and always will protect the constitutional rights of Denton citizens. >> Is that, yeah, yeah. That sounds, yes. I understand. Run an objection? >> Yes, I'm going to hang up. I mean, it doesn't, I mean, so if you read this verbatim, so we support the city of- >> El Cinezo. >> And then, and we don't support anyone else. It's one city that gets the support we- >> Well, no, so- >> It says legal efforts. >> Yeah, I know, but I just- >> It qualifies. >> I just, I don't- >> Plaintiffs. >> What? >> I was just gonna say call it plaintiffs. >> Okay. >> I mean, it's not hard. >> Okay, support the plaintiffs? >> Yeah, support the plaintiffs. >> Are they the plaintiffs or defendants? >> They're the plaintiffs. They're the people who made an injunction. >> Okay. >> Just to share, in that group, it's also the city of San Antonio, El Paso County, Austin, Dallas, Travis County, Houston. >> Yeah. >> So instead of adding all those names, it's short. >> My thing is, and you'll learn. I have a running objection to comparing Denton to any and all cities just because it's like being walkable to UNT and all those other fun things. It just gets- >> Running objection noted. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> I might change chief of counties. >> Okay, any other questions before we close this open session out? All right, thank you. And so now, where's my cheat sheet? Do we have anything else? >> [INAUDIBLE] >> No, I think he said we need to have it for the amicus brief, yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay, I will now convene the closed session at 520. We will consider the following items, consultation with attorneys under text of government code section 551.071. [MUSIC] >> Good evening, everyone. Welcome to this meeting of the Denton City Council. It is Tuesday, October the 17th, 2017. It is 633. If you would and able to, let's stand and pledge allegiance to the US and Texas flag. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> I pledge allegiance to the flag and I pledge allegiance to the city of Texas, one nation, under God, for all that it may be, indivisible. [BLANK_AUDIO] >> Okay, we've got a couple of proclamations and presentations. The first one is break the silence Sunday. Who's here? Who? What? >> Item A is honored Ted Howard. >> Okay, I'm sorry, got him out of order here. [BLANK_AUDIO] This one. >> Item A. >> No, it's right here. But do we have a presentation here? >> [INAUDIBLE] >> Someone's here, I'm sorry. This is why we have a city secretary. Agenda item A, honor Ted Howard with the S. Tracy Howard project in partnership with Denton Parks Recre ation for serving over 29,400 free meals and snacks. Who's here for that presentation? Yes, good. Tell us a little bit about that. >> Yeah, we had partnered with the SDH project this summer to serve lunches throughout the city of Denton. But what was exciting this summer was also that we were able to expand into the breakfast program. So partnering with Ted Howard and his group, we were able to serve thousands of breakfasts to children. Because so many kids come to camps or the rec centers and are hungry. And so we were able to expand that service. And now they continue to provide meals this year at the MLK Rec Center and doing dinners for about 50 children each evening. So we're real excited and we're hoping to continue this partnership. >> Thank you so much. Let's give a big hand for that. What a great service that we provide for our kids. Thank you so much. Thank you. >> [APPLAUSE] >> Thank you, Jennifer. Okay, let's get back. Let's see. Break the Silence Sunday. Not that one. Okay, Break the Silence Sunday. Who's here to share with us a little bit about that? If not, I'll go ahead and read the proclamation. Okay, this is for Break the Silence Sunday Day. This is a proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton. Whereas October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month. The 90.9 KCBI, the Gatehouse, Genesis Women's Shelter, and Unite Greater Dallas are raising awareness and educating the public about this issue. Asking churches to speak out against domestic violence of women and their children. Whereas each minute, 20 people are victims of domestic violence in the United States. And nearly one in four women will be victims of domestic violence. And whereas victims are deprived of their autonomy, liberty , and security, and face tremendous obstacles in maintaining their health and safety. And whereas on Break the Silence Sunday, we pledge to speak out against domestic violence, reaffir ming our dedication to do justice and to forging a city where no one suffers the hardship that domestic violence causes and are committed to doing everything in our power to uphold the right to be free from violence and abuse. And whereas 90.9 KCBI, the Gatehouse, Genesis Women's Shel ter, and Unite Greater Dallas are committed to raising awareness of domestic violence and help rescue and provide new pathways to those who have been caught in this cycle. Now therefore, I, Chris Watts, Mayor of the City of Denton, Texas, do hereby proclaim October the 29th, 2017 as Break the Silence Sunday. And Denton and urge all residents to speak out and work to end domestic violence. Thank you so much. Let's give an applause for honoring that great issue. >> [APPLAUSE] >> Yes, we did, yeah. So we don't have a, yeah. All right, the next one is presentation from staff regarding the hurricane relief efforts made by city employees. You got the mic? Okay. >> I'm Ari, I'm the city manager, mayor, members of the council. I'm glad to be here tonight to allow you all to recognize a number of employees that participated and were deployed down in Southeast Texas along with the state of Florida to assist in the rescue and recovery efforts for the hurricanes that afflicted our country. And so if I could, I'd like to call on Drew Huffman to come down and start showing the presentation and make a few comments. And then we'll just hand the baton over to the next department. And at the conclusion, if we could, it would be nice if we could get the employees at the conclusion of all the presentations, we can get a group picture here in front of the dais, if possible. >> Sure, if they're not coming down until the group picture , everybody that is here that will be in the group picture from city who's been involved in this, I want you to stand up so we can recognize you. And first of all, give you a great round of applause. >> [APPLAUSE] >> Okay, they're always sort of hiding in the shadow, so we'll get them out here in a little bit. Go ahead, Drew. >> How are you? My name is Drew Huffman. I'm the manager of the Wastewater Collections Department. And I got the chance to take six other individuals from the wastewater department to help with water and wastewater efforts to restore in Southeast Texas. And these are the gentlemen that went with us myself. And we have Brian Meadows, David Warren, Byron Rashard, Glenn Harrison, Rivers Earls, and Kyle Huber. And we went to Referio, Texas, Lake Jackson, and Brazoria. And so here's a couple pictures. The picture here on the left, we were in Referio and we fixed, they had eight water main breaks, we fixed four of the eight. And during the day while we were fixing water main breaks, they called us to Lake Jackson because the city of Carroll ton met us in Referio. And they took the other four. And they ended up following us to Lake Jackson a couple days later. But in Lake Jackson, we cleared drainage ditches there. You can see us to open up the drainage ditches to relieve the flood waters. And also repaired multiple lift stations and unclog multiple sewer lines that were being affected by the flood waters. Here's a couple other pictures that we have of Referio, where we're fixing water main breaks. And I especially like the one on the right. So they started hanging flags in town for their efforts and it was a great experience. Thank you. And I really appreciate your support and appreciation for everything. Thank you. >> [APPLAUSE] >> I'm Keith Gabbard, Superintendent of Streets. As you can see by the long list, our team consisted of members from streets, drainage, parks, and one member from fleet service. We was dispatched to Vitor, Texas to assist in debris management. As you can see, we removed several large trees allowing access back to the community for fire and the citizens and assisted in damaged roads repair. And we were there four days and we would like to thank you very much for the opportunity to go down and serve others. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> [APPLAUSE] >> Good evening council members. My name is Brad Layhart. I represent the fire department. We're skipping PD. PD's out on a call right now, so you can make it tonight. We're missing a couple members too, cuz they're out on call . So, Den Fire Department covered everywhere from the Louisiana border in South Texas all the way to Corpus Christi. We had several teams deployed. Everything from swift water rescue to structural collapse to I was a strike team leader taking over fire departments down in South Texas and Fulton in the Fulton area. So the members that went with us is Mike Tucker. He's a captain. She had Miller, driver and Corbin Evans. They were part of Texas Task Force One. And then we had a boat team with Captain Cox, Captain Hemp stead, Captain Hornback, driver Vance Bowden, driver Stevenson, firefighter Ty. I think we go to another page. Yeah, strike team myself and Chief Higgins and Mark Mason all battalion chiefs and strike team leaders. And then we had Captain Boyd, Captain Lawrence, Captain H ickman, drivers Roberts, Eddington, Vaughn, and firefighters Bentley, Greg Fisher, Mike Schmidt, Brad Earnhardt, Gomez, Gavin Witherspoon. And then finally we had one more strike team which was Captain Boots and firefighter Jermaine Wilson. And most of them are here with me tonight too. We'll wait until the very end. >> Fantastic, thank you. >> I think there's a few pictures. >> Good. >> Then Rowdy Patterson with DME will signify theirs. >> Okay, good. >> Thank you all. Denton Municipal Electric was called upon first for Harvey. We didn't actually get to go down and help with Harvey. There weren't any actual municipalities that were affected, like the Houston area that was all investor owned. And so we weren't actually called down there. A couple of weeks later we were called by Florida Municipal Electric Agency to provide assistance in Florida. We took, we took 20 employees. I'm not gonna read off the names and everything. But if you look on the list, you can see that we took only two apprentices with us. We took very seasoned employees. Because when we go on these things, we've been going on hurricane breaks since 2002. We've assisted cities from Florida to the Carolinas up into Long Island. We went to Sandy, back down into Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Texas, and Oklahoma on an ice storm and a tornado break. So we try to take seasoned employees because when you get there, you're in a different environment. You don't know what their system is like. You're unfamiliar with the streets. You're unfamiliar with everything. So we take a seasoned group so that we can watch each other 's backs. We left out on Monday, September 11th, headed to Ocala, Florida, which is just above Orlando. And we arrived Wednesday morning at about 3 AM. The one good thing about Ocala, they had everything set up for us. We didn't have to walk for anything. When we arrived, they gave us keys to a hotel room, put us on a shuttle bus, and took us to the hotel. We arrived back in Denton on September 21st, Thursday evening, a week, a little over a week later. Here's a picture of the group before we left. As you can see, we weren't dressed to work because we knew it was going to be a long trip down there. There were several towns trying to get through Pensacola, Florida, took us about three and a half hours because all the citizens were trying to get back into their homes to check and see how everything was. There's a thank you at the front gate at Ocala's municipal complex. You can see some tree damage, some flooding. You can see some work at night. There's the trees here. We have some large trees here. But every neighborhood has huge trees down there. So when they fell, they fell across not only lines, but houses and everything else. You can see some more pictures. I know there's been questions asked about, you know, why do we send our linemen down to help with these hurricanes? And people have asked about the funding for that and everything. And yes, we do get reimbursed by FEMA. But we go for several reasons. We go to help out, to provide help, to provide assistance. And we go because what happens if it didn't is hit with a catastrophe? Well, I'll tell you, we can call any of these towns that we 've helped and they'll come help us. Thank you all for your support. (Applause.) I don't really know how to work this, but was there a police department, at least, slide that shows who went and where they went? If we could maybe show that. Yeah. Even though there's no one here, but I at least wanted to get those names and the locations up on the screen right before the firefighters, I believe. Right here, yes. Yeah. -Brian, Officer Coase was part of the Public Information Office at the Emergency Operations Center there in southeast Texas . And just to let you know, I got a call from the mayor of Oc ala as our crew was en route, and he was so appreciative. And I got a call afterwards just expressing the thanks. I mean, 30,000 people helped restore electricity to 30,000 people. And when you look at everybody that we sent and everything that they did collectively, how we really showed our commitment to our fellow citizens around the country and that we are so thankful that we can send people and that people are willing to go and do that. Because I'm imagining those are very long days. I mean, there's really nothing else to do but work down there. So thank you all for doing that. Thank you so much for your commitment to the city, and thank you for doing it so that, as you said, if we're in need sometime, we have friends out there that are willing to come help us in our time of need. So come on down. Whoever wants to be in the picture, we'll get you worked in here somehow. So come on, Brad. Come on, Brad. You're telling everybody else to come. Come on, Brad. [SIDE CONVERSATION] [SIDE CONVERSATION] [SIDE CONVERSATION] All right. Thank you. [APPLAUSE] Thank you. You bet. Thank you all. What's the next one? You're keeping me in line. OK. OK. On a side note, I went down on Labor Day with the fire department to take some supplies. And as we got closer to Rockport, you could tell, as you got closer, the damage. More trees were down. And then you did notice, as you got real close, all the power lines, literally miles and miles of power lines just laying over, snapped. And gosh, what a great opportunity to be able to help these people out. OK, our next proclamation is Domestic Violence Awareness Month. Sort of what we talked-- so who's here for that? Anybody here for that to help share some thoughts about that? All right, if not, I'll read the proclamation. This is a proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton. Whereas for the past 37 years, Denton County Friends of the Family has provided compassionate, comprehensive services to those impacted by rape, sexual abuse, and domestic violence in the Denton community while partnering with the community to promote safety, hope, healing, justice, and prevention. And whereas by working together with shelters, affiliated programs, municipalities, and concerned individuals, we can change social attitudes about and the response to intimate partner violence. And whereas all persons have the right to live without fear , abuse, or oppression, one in three Texans will experience domestic violence in their lifetimes. And domestic violence is not confined to any specific group or people, but affects people of all races, backgrounds, economic levels, educational levels, family structures, ages, and religions. And whereas Denton County Friends of the Family received more than 3,000 crisis calls from victims of domestic violence and provided 7,801 days of emergency shelter to women and children in the past year. Whereas the Denton County Friends of the Family is individuals and also groups with over 10,000 hours of services through counseling, advocacy, case management, and support services. Whereas advocates, professionals, volunteers, and community members concerned with domestic violence will devote the month of October to raising awareness about the causes, interventions, and preventions of this devastating crime of domestic violence which violates members of our community's privacy, dignity, security, and humanity in the form of physical, emotional, sexual, psychological, religious, and economic abuse. Now therefore, I, Chris Watts, Mayor of the City of Denton, Texas, do hereby proclaim the month of October 2017 as Domestic Violence Awareness Month and reaffirm this city 's commitment to ending domestic violence in our community. [APPLAUSE] Next proclamation is the Peterbilt Pride in Class Day. So if you'll come on up and introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about Pride in Class Day. Gary? Good evening, council members, mayor. My name is Phil Hall, chief designer at Peterbilt Motors. I've been with Peterbilt for 22 years, and it's an honor to be here tonight to announce that this Friday, October 20, we'll have a Pride in Class Parade benefiting the United Way and raising money for them. We're going to have merchandise on sale on the square, along with kettle corn. And all proceeds are going to go to the United Way, and we're going to have some bucket teams collecting donations as well. And so all the money is going to go towards the United Way and the partner agencies. And the key thing is that we want to build the awareness to the community what United Way does. There are 20 organizations and agencies that really help the community out. And we at Peterbilt, we want to bring that pride in class to the Denton community. We're going to have over 54 trucks from all over the United States and Canada coming down. They're coming down on their own dime. Some of these trucks are worth over a million dollars, and they want to share their show trucks to the community. And so it's going to be a great time, and it's a great family event. So we hope to see you there. Yes, yeah. [APPLAUSE] And then I'm Gary Henderson, CEO of United Way of Denton County. And Phil is really humble. It was Phil's idea. Phil was a leader on loan, a loaned employee from Peterbilt Motors to United Way's program a year ago, and as a way to help raise awareness and raise funds. This was Phil's idea. And in about 30 days, pulled off this really creative way to raise awareness on the square. And really, only in the city of Denton on the square and Peterbilt Motors could you put the two together to where these big old trucks go around the square. And we want to see families come out and enjoy this time. But we just couldn't be more proud of this organization that is one of the most outstanding corporations in Denton when it comes to giving back to the nonprofit community. So thank you, Phil, and thank you, Peterbilt. Yes, and I echo those sentiments. I mean, you've been a long supporter of the nonprofits in this community. And thank you so much. Thank you so much for that support. So it's my pleasure to read this proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton, whereas Peterbilt Motors Company and its employees have donated over $5.6 million over the last 15 years to improve the lives of people living in Denton County. $5.6 million through their annual United Web Denton workplace campaign. Whereas Peterbilt Motors Company employees regularly volunteer their time and talent to serve local nonprofit organizations as board members and dedicated volunteers. And whereas Peterbilt Motors Company employees host the annual Pride in Class Peterbilt Showtruck Parade around the Denton Square to raise awareness and donations for United Web Denton County and its partners. Whereas 50 Peterbilt Showtruck operators will donate their time on October the 20th to support Peterbilt Motors Company's philanthropic efforts . And whereas Peterbilt Motors Company provides an exemplary example of corporate social responsibility and commitment to giving back to the community. Now, therefore, I, Chris Watts, Mayor of the City of Denton , Texas, do hereby declare and proclaim October the 20th, 2017, as Peterbilt Pride in Class Day in the City of Denton and joins the United Web Denton County in recognizing Peter bilt for their commitment to our community and encourages all citizens to recognize Peterbilt Motors Company on this special day. And this sounds like a wonderful event. So I really want everybody to come out, you know, that are here, that are watching by television. That's going to be exciting to see those those show trucks. So thank you, Phil, so much and thank you Peterbilt Motors Company. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. OK, we're at the next portion of our agenda, which is presentation from members of the public. We'll review a review of procedures for addressing the City Council. The Denton City Council has adopted rules of procedure, including a code of conduct, which applies to citizens as well as council members. These rules were enacted to promote an orderly process and to preserve decorum. Here is a brief review of the rules that apply to citizens' reports. Citizens will have four minutes to give a report. There will be an electronic beep when time has expired. If the remarks are not concluded by that time, the citizen will be asked to stop speaking. If the citizen does not cease and a second request is made, the mayor will request to have the citizen removed from the council chambers. Citizens are asked to not approach the dais. If a citizen has papers or other materials to hand out to the council, please let the city secretary know, and she will have a staff member distribute the materials to the council. The attorney general has ruled that council members may listen to citizens speak and may ask questions of citizens for clarification of the issue. Council members will not engage citizens in discussion of a topic, because to do so could potentially be a violation of the Open Meetings Act. When speaking to the council, citizens are to direct all remarks and questions to the council as a whole and not to any individual member. Please refrain from making abusive, personal, impertinent, profane, or slanderous remarks. Anyone who violates this rule will immediately be removed from the council chambers. Citizens' adherence to these rules will help make an effective presentation and will preserve the order and decorum of our proceedings. Copies of the rules of procedure are available from the city secretary. All right, we'll go on to agenda item 3B, Scheduled Citizen Reports for Members of the Public. First speaker will be Mr. Robert Donnelly regarding the culture of Denton City Government. Mr. Donnelly, if you'll state your name and address, your time will begin. My name is Robert Donnelly. I live at 3900 Quail Creek Road, Denton, Texas. And I would like to say I was glad I did get a response to my concerns over the SUP, which is something I have still not received over the fabricated mobility plan that was sent to me. So I still don't know anything about that. But I was very disappointed in the response I got. In the first paragraph, it says, "I understand your concerns that solid waste is not compliant with the specific use permit." So I thought he knew what my concerns were. He then brings up a mediated settlement agreement, which we have. And I just didn't think in four minutes I haven't had time to bring that to you. I appreciate him bringing it up. But it's a different issue that I've been talking with. Down under the vegetative buffer in the last paragraph of the letter, he has the staff report to planning and zoning. I don't know why he didn't use the planning and zoning report to counsel that voted on it so that he could provide what the counsel at the time actually voted on. Under the second point of that, under the SUP, he wrote, "require sufficient landscaping and screening to ensure harmony and compatibility with adjacent property." I don't know if he's trying to make you think that's all that's required. It's not. The SUP has a site plan that is part of the SUP and it gives how many trees and how they're to be planted. On the second page, he talks about installing an appropriate buffer years ago and it died. What does that have to do with if you're compliant today or not? Nothing. He also says a recent inspection by city building inspections said there was adequate landscaping between the mobile home park and the landfill. Adequate is not what's required by the SUP, 20 trees per 100 feet. Then he goes into landfill height, which you're in compliance until y'all pass, or y'all won't do it, but in future they change the landfill height to 24 stories . On the last page, goes into the MSA, which requires a right turn lane. I love this part of it because he states in the next to last paragraph that based on satellite images, right-hand turn lane was put in. But then the last sentence says, "When they moved the entrance to Spencer Road, backed it up a little bit, the city decided rather than installing a right-hand turn lane, the city created a left-hand turn lane." I'm glad y'all decided we needed a left when you signed an agreement that said we'd have a right. So you totally ignored it. But the last paragraph perfectly shows that nothing has changed with the city. We recognize that the present lane construction is not consistent with the language present in the MSA. In other words, we're not following it. However, with the impending realignment of Mayhill Road, which changes nothing because widening of Mayhill Road was in discussions when we did this, we believe the need for a right turn lane will be eliminated. And we do not feel the construction of such a lane would be in the best interest of the city of Denton Earth citizens. You have a signed agreement with people, with your citizens , and you ignore it. You've decided it's not in the best interest. A contract is between two people. We have -- I'm a member of that MSA. I have never agreed to a left turn lane. If I have, show it to me, but I haven't. And that's what I'm talking about, the culture. You sign things. Is my time up? That's it. >> We do have someone requesting to speak. Council Member Briggs. >> Could you -- you kept saying he, he. Who is he? >> I'm terrible about this. I either say he or you, the city. >> Okay. >> I'm not blaming any one person at all. The city and this letter is from Ethan Cox, but he just happens to be the new head of Solid Ways. >> When I say he or you, I don't mean you or you. I mean the city. These are city issues. I'm not after a person. >> And for clarification, you spoke about the agreement regarding a right-hand turn lane and you used some initials. What is that agreement? >> It's a mediated settlement agreement. >> Okay. >> That was done back at the same time the contract on the landfill was done. And they abbreviated it, and it's a good mediated settlement agreement. It was between me and about six neighbors. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> All right. Thank you. Appreciate it, Mr. Donnelly. Thank you. Next speaker will be Ben Kreger regarding Stoke. Is it Kreger? Kreger. Kreger, okay. If you'll state your name and address and your time will begin. >> My name is Ben Kreger. I formerly lived in Highland Village at 703 Windsor Court. Currently reside in Cincinnati. Appreciate you guys offering us the opportunity to talk about Stoke. I've reviewed the previous meetings and discussions and wanted to offer just some thoughts on the coworking incubating space and hopefully offer some measurable metrics might be helpful in judging how Stoke performs going forward. And then also some recommendations for success in that venture. So let me start with a quick story. If you can bear it. Give me a minute. So I currently spend time running a startup shoe company. We manufacture in China. We have a shoe engineer in Boston. And so because we run a shoe company, I'm concerned that if I was to become or try to become a member of Stoke, I might not necessarily be as welcome because in theory by some definitions we might not be a tech company or tech enabled. However, we go to market in the same way the Zappos does. All online, Amazon, social media, et cetera. So one of my first thoughts on this is when we look at the members of Stoke to consider them qualified or not or focus on tech or tech enabled, we might miss out on some very good members that would be great asset to the community. So part of this whole process for me is I've spent time in about 12 different co-working incubating facilities around the country in the last two years. I mostly work with small businesses that are trying to become commercialized, acquired, gain funding, et cetera. So I've got a couple of best practices I think I'd like to share with you guys because it might help as we begin to frame up what Stoke looks like. You know, I think we have to start with the end in mind. Is the intent of this city venture to be subsidized, to break even, or to make money? Because if we answer that question for what could be two, three, four years, I think that drives a lot of the follow decision making. You know, when we look at month to month leases, the best practices I've seen at the sites around the country are those that offer month to month leases. And then once the member is in there, they are grandfather ed in at whatever rental rates they have. And then it's kind of a supply demand how the rates move. But that's a great way to get key people in those offices. Another best practice I've seen is the office space tends to be your highest value real estate. And I think that Stoke appears to be under indexed in the amount of office space it has versus the amount of desk space. That's a large square footage area for events and desks. But I think there could be a lot more offices in there that could have sustainable members. Because those members, once they commit to an office, that 's a different sort of financial commitment. And if the dollars associated with just the offices alone could provide a break even situation, then it allows for some flexibility in how you encourage the energy in one of those communities . At the end of the day, the butts and seats metric really does matter. And the energy around having people in these areas really impacts, it's really a snowball effect. Once people are coming there, they know to come there for events or other sort of situations. A lot of times when we talk about startups, we talk about communities. These communities, they're not there intended to be a social community. They're there to gain value from the other members that are around there. So it's very-- we have to make sure that in the best practices I've seen around the country, there has to be somebody focused on the recruiting of those type of members. There tends to be three roles in the successful sites I've seen and they can be worn by different people but the roles are the same. And there's somebody that manages the day to day, the site manager of which Heather did previously. There's a marketing role that is usually done, can be done virtually offsite by a company that really focuses on the online part of that . And then there tends to be an executive director that is the face of this type of a community that actually chats with the other communities around the city, other communities around the nation to go ahead and gain some sort of measurable impact. A couple of questions, Council Member Hudspeth. >> Thank you, Mayor. Just to clarify, so the-- currently you walk in there and you mentioned the number of offices. So currently in the center, it's all walk-in desk and you're saying we should do what to-- what is that mix and why? >> In the sites that tend to be solvent, I've seen around the country, they have much more office space dedicated as their total square footage. And so when you walk in Stoke, that area on the left where the standup tables are and even the set of desk before the two by four partition for lack of a better term, those could all be turned into offices that are really good revenue generators because the folks that come in with offices tend to have more than one employee. They tend to be more committed to the coworking environment for longer term. So I think there's a large revenue opportunity there because very rarely in the last year have I seen Stoke have open offices as much at all. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Council Member Briggs. >> So I'm pretty sure you ran out of time before you got to finish everything you were going to say. But if you have a presentation, I'd like for you to send it to us. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Oh, I'm sorry. Council Member Gregory. >> So you've been to other coworking spaces. >> Absolutely. >> And what are you saying about the mix and the notion of maybe and just having Stoke exclusively for tech or tech-supp orted companies? >> I think that it's very difficult in my experience to have a consistent definition around what's tech and tech-enabled. It's very tough to find a company that doesn't use technology in some way. What I have seen are more prohibitions on, hey, we're not sure we want realtors or lawyers perhaps to office in there because that might go against kind of what we're trying to do to build a startup community. But trying to identify or pigeonhole companies into what they are, I think is very difficult and I'm not sure it helps the total cause. >> Thanks. >> All right. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Next speaker will be David Zoltner regarding local rules of procedure. >> Good evening, council members, staff, citizens. My name is David Zoltner. I live in District 1 at 2501 Timber Trail. A couple months ago when I first raised this 3B speaker issue, I had no real expectations of any sweeping agenda overhauls happening up here. My only intent was to hopefully have council members and citizens better understand three points. First, the Texas Open Meetings Act plays no favorites when it comes to postings and meeting procedure. By statute, staff and citizens are on exactly the same level. Secondly, we have some conflicted rules of procedure and a video in serious need of repair. And third, agenda captions or location mean nothing from a legal standpoint when considering under the Texas Open Meetings Act. To consider an item under legal tomah definition, regardless of where it may be located on an agenda, means to discuss, deliberate, clarify and yes, even take action when appropriate, whether that item has been posted by staff or citizen. Then comes a work session last Tuesday where I hope these matters might be explored and at least addressed. No such luck. Instead, we had a torture defense of our current custom wording and legal excuses why an overworked city secretary in San Antonio who left one important word off an emergency agenda 31 years ago should somehow determine wording on our 2017 Denton agendas . Wow. Then things really got off track later in that work session. We actually had council members wander off into the weeds trying to understand the difference between clarifying a topic without actually deliberating it. And then wondering out loud how, dear God, could we actually think of letting action take place without backup materials or fancy power points? How are we ever to take action without knowing exactly what staff expects of us? Then the chair went on top with a suggestion that somehow a total 3B topic should come under some council-imposed five-minute time limit. Yes, you do have the authority under our current rules to limit the 3B introduction to four minutes, but to further limit deliberation by council members who may still have legitimate questions makes no sense whatsoever. Would you ever think of putting a wrap around a Brian Lang ley item? Why should it be any different for citizens if both posted properly according to state law? Please tell me. The unspoken message that comes through time and time again is that some council members, again, some, not all, consider themselves and staff to be all-knowing and citizens are nothing more than renegade trolls with chips on their shoulder with nothing better to do than waste your precious time during public meetings. Thinking about this over the past week is pretty clear where this is all headed. In a few weeks, we'll probably have another work session with staff or city attorney presenting some new red-lined amendments to our current rules that make a mockery of the Open Meetings Act and bring further embarrassment to the city of Denton. You see, in open government circles, Denton already has a reputation around this state as being something of a black hole of transparency and closed-session abuse. So please, don't embarrass the city of Denton or yourselves any further by trying to play word games with 3B postings or claiming that somehow open meetings are being complied. So in closing, here's my personal recommendation. Please go with Mr. Leal's final option given during your work session. Just delete 3B altogether. Just go with the open mic only moving forward. It's the only sensible way I can see to protect the integrity of the Open Meetings Act against further abuse by council members prioritizing local rules or procedure over state law. Thank you for your attention. >> Thank you. All right, next speaker will be Chris Ice regarding Senate Bill 4. State your name and address. Your time will begin. >> Good evening, Mayor Watts and honored councilmembers. My name is Chris Ice. I'm the mayor of 1518 Scripture Street at 76201. I know some of you already know me and for those who do not , I'm just a local educator. I'm not here to represent any school district. I'm just a classroom teacher nor am I here to represent the League of United Latino American Citizens. As president-elect of council 4366, I signed a letter delivered weeks ago to this honorable body by Ms. Prado which details our local chapter's position with regards to SB 4 and DACA. My challenge is here tonight to deliver the most positive message I can regarding the outlandish implementation of Senate Bill 4. Therefore, to assuage school district officials, family and friends, I've decided to share with you guys a topic that's of special interest and one which I'm fluent in and that's me, myself. Or more importantly, my crew. We are guys or girls operating as leaders. The goal program for short. In the Ed game, we love acronyms. For those of you unfamiliar with the program, our vision and mission right here for you guys, yes, okay good. We incentivize second language learners with access to a free soccer league and exchange students meet with mentors and submit for checkups and grades, behaviors and attendance. They provide myriad community service projects, some of which you guys have been involved in, and they write testimonials for self-published anthologies. We began over eight years ago with 23 young men on a singular campus with the intent to strengthen their commitment to family, school and community. And since that time, we've grown to serve boys and girls, totaling upwards of 600 students ages elementary to college . And college kids, you're still children. I consider you that. Across six North Texas school districts and with three college affiliates. There's no school budget for this program. There's no stipend or bonus for sponsors. We are 100% volunteer organization and not a tax burden. There are no state standards that detail our objectives. We build the plane as we go down the runway. In eight years, let me tell you what your community of second language learners have built. They've provided four regularly scheduled soccer tournaments wherein each child participant is fed and shirted for free. They've donated 650 coats, provided voter registration, built bleachers, simple bleachers for local parks during M. O. County Day of Service, donated books to the pre-K centers, have written three books of their own with a fourth one breaking this fall, donated 2.5 tons of food over a three-year period to the Mayor's Day of Concern, awarded 11 scholarships, provided in-kind and financial support to Moncret Breast Cancer Research, Denton Animal Shelter and Scottish Rite. They've provided holiday cards for assisted living centers, first responders' breakfasts, college prep and financing seminars, active participants in the Hispanic Heritage celebrations and cleaned miles and miles and miles of various adoptive spots and local cleanups. We've established enduring partnerships with Denton PD, Serve Denton, Denton Mudbug Charity, Little Guys Movers, Panector Industries, Friends with Bene fits Charities, FC Dallas Organizations, Texas Woman's University Reading Department, Texas Woman's University Kinesiology Department, NCTC, the Corinth Campus, Communities and Schools, the Dent on Hispanic Chamber of Commerce and Lulak Council 436. We've been featured in Texas School Business Magazine. We received an honorable mention award for the MAGNA in the American School Board Journal in 2016. We've been reviewed several times by the Denton RC. We are session leaders at professional conferences such as the Texas Association for Alternative Education, National Youth at Risk, National Association for Bilingual Educators, International Association for Truancy and Dropout Prevention. And this spring we'll speak at the National School Board Association in San Antonio. [ Bell Ringing ] >> Do you have that presentation? You can make a copy of it and distribute it to us. If you've got one or two sentences left, I'll let you wrap it up. But if you can just-- >> Two sentences. >> Two sentences go. >> Okay. In our ninth year implementation, we're providing two new things. Number one, adaptive soccer for students with disabilities. And number two, a bug out plan for our events where immigration officials raid them. Understand bill four, it's not if but when our trusted partners turn into people that are going to turn us out. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> All right. Our next agenda item is 3C, which is additional citizen reports. This is the open mic portion of our agenda. It's limited to two speakers. We've got two speakers that have signed up. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see that. I'm sorry. Councilmember Hutspeth had a question. Chris, Councilmember Hutspeth had a question. I'm sorry. I didn't see it. Yes, sir. >> Thank you. >> Yes, sir. Thank you. >> You bet. Sorry about that. >> I just want to know. So three books forthcoming. Where do I get those? I got my shirt at the community market, but I want to know where those-- that's impressive. >> Our student testimonials are published through the finn presspublications.com. >> Okay. >> We go? All right. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> City of Denton, Little D. >> Thank you. All right. Councilmember-- I mean, Councilmember-- Mr. Willie Hutspeth . Mr. Willie Hutspeth. State your name and address and your time will begin. >> Mayor and Councilmember's name is Willie Hutspeth. I live at 623 Newton. The relief program was very impressive that they sent individuals down to do that work. And that's a good thing that they did. Two blacks. Two. That's all you had. I just keep asking the question, why? Why don't we have African Americans on that fire department ? We have two. In the history-- do you understand what I mean by the history? I'm going to find out how long Denton's been here. Then I'm going to state that number. Then I'm going to say for X number of years, not one, we didn't have any. Then when I came up here talking about it, you got two. And that's all you had. Now, one of you councilmembers have been talking about what can we do? What can we do? Well, what did you do to create the problem? Uncreated. Whatever you've done. It's a civil service organization. The police have done something about it. They're civil service. Undo what you've done. That's what you do. Or keep sitting there-- oh, and one other thing. There is an opening that does not require civil service to be filled. The fire marshal. I don't know what's happened with that. I know that she's moved to a different place. Why not put an African-American there? You know what you have to do once you see that you've done something wrong? Create a new history, city council. Here's the new history. Let's hire some other people. Hispanics are in there. They're even worse than us, than the African-Americans. So do something about it. And quit looking like there's nothing you can do. Another issue. I think the Confederate monument on the square is a racist statement of Jim Crowism. Coming up with rules to segregate people and put them in different categories. Why haven't the city of Denton said anything about that? For 17 years-- no, more long than that. 20. I've been down there talking about it. That statue. You and the other city council members have said not one word. Please tell me what is your stance on that statue down there? You far against it. Do you think it's racist or not? So I'm going to conclude with you have no African-American firemen. But who? Since the history of Denton. Now someone has said to me, why do you keep saying the same thing? Because not saying anything, you do the same thing. And you're still doing the same thing. What's that? Nothing. You're doing nothing. Let me say again, just in case you didn't hear me. You have no African-American firemen. And they all came up here and they stood in front of you. You're doing a great job. And you applauded them. By golly, if you're not going to hire African-Americans-- I told you this before. Figure out how much of my tax dollars go toward the fire department and those engines and all those salaries and give it back to me. Because you're not representing me. I want you to give me my money back in my taxes that I'm paying for that. And then I will get a fire hydrant out in front of my water hose and try to put my house out if it's on fire. I try to put it out with a water hose. Because I don't want to pay one more cent in a system where my people are not recognized and not hired. Thank you. Thank you. Next speaker will be Bryce Goodman. State your name and address and your time will begin. I didn't know I would be number two. I thought there were so many others. My name is Bryce Goodman. I live at 1116 and a half Wilson Street. I would hope that you would all support and pass the resolution against SB4. That's number one. All of you. Number two-- well, first off, I think we really need to take that resolution and consider it. I would hope you all will. Number two, I think I read an article last week about the road safety around the schools in town. And one of the schools around here, Ryan on McKinney, which is close to me, was rated one of the worst and most unsafe. We got an F rating. When I was in high school, one of my friends was walking across the street and another student was walking and she was hit and died in his arms. And that fundamentally changed him. And it changed how our streets were built around the school . They widened and gave more lanes. They slowed it down by 10 miles an hour. And they added lights and crosswalks. And I think we need to do something like that around the schools because it really missed a lot of lives up. And third, I live on this side of 35. This is a little less serious than SB4 and the others. But I would like to see a dog park put in town on this side , something closer, just to this side so people who don't have access to buses or cars because you can't take your pet on the bus can still go to a dog park. Because as of right now, the only dog park is Wigley Field and it's about 15 minutes away. That's not very handy for anyone who has a dog within this side of city, downtown area. But once again, I think the most important part is that you all think long and hard and do pass the resolution against SB4. Thank you. >> Councilmember Baguette. Councilmember Baguette. >> Yeah, I just wanted to thank you for your comments and just clarify that we have approved a dog park on the north side of town and it's in plans right now. A little bit of a delay involving the parking lot, but it is on track. And then secondly, regarding the area around Ryan High School, I went to Ryan High School as well. That area has been released from the state to the city. And so we'll be building a temporary walkway and then a permanent park walkway. But before even that, I believe we approved at our last meeting crosswalks and lighted up areas over there. So we're very aware of the traffic and mobility issues and we work on it a lot. That was a question, I guess. >> Yes, it was. Yeah, thank you. We'll go on to our next agenda item, which is consent agenda. Council would entertain action or questions on the consent agenda. Councilmember Gregory. >> I move approval of all of the items except L and Q, which would be pulled for individual consideration. >> Okay. All right. We have a motion for approval of the consent agenda items, save for agenda item 4L and 4Q. Oh, Councilmember Garrett, I'm sorry. >> Second. >> Yeah. We have a motion and a second for that motion. Let's vote on the board, please. Any discussion? Okay. Motion carries 7-0. We will now take up the items for individual consideration that were pulled from the consent agenda. We will go with agenda item 4L first, which is considered adoption of an ordinance of the City Council of the City of Denton approving guidelines for operations of the City of Denton Home Improvement Program. And we do have a card wishing to speak on that after staff presentation. >> Thank you, Mayor and members of the council. I'm actually going to introduce our housing program's manager, Alma Espino. She has been working with the home improvement program for many years now, and she can give you a brief presentation and answer any questions you may have. >> I was asked, hello, I was asked to do a quick presentation on the home improvement program. The program's been around for many years. I've been with the city for 23 years, and it's been here since then. The home improvement program is provided, is available to provide assistance to local homeowners who need assistance with repairs. We offer our assistance either to repair the home or when the house cannot be repaired, we reconstruct it. That means we knock it down and we build it new. So we provide, with repairs, we repair all the major systems, the roof, the electrical, et cetera. We bring the house up to code. With reconstruction, when the house cannot be repaired, we knock it down and build it new, and we do make the house energy star. To be eligible, the house must be located within the city limits of Denton, must have code deficiencies, and income needs to qualify. And the household must show the ability to afford a loan and cost associated with the rehab of the reconstructed. And I will let you know that this program has helped revitalize neighborhoods and is one of the very few city of Denton housing programs that offer services and supports to citizens who have worked hard their whole lives but are unable to afford these repairs. And this was also approved in June with our action plan by the city council. >> All right. Any questions? Councilmember Briggs, and then we'll take public comment. >> I asked to have this poll just because it's such a great program that we have in our city, and not a lot of people know about it. And so if somebody did meet those requirements that you mentioned, how would they go about -- is it an application process, and is it something they do here at the city? >> They can apply. If they're household -- there's two steps to qualifying. One is the household, and the other one is the property and the home. So they come in, they let us know what they need, and we determine if they qualify income-wise. And then we go and take a look at the property and determine what it needs. If it needs a rehab, that means just all kinds of repairs, or if it needs to be knocked down and rebuilt. >> Okay. Thank you. >> All right. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We do have a card, Mr. Williams-Husbeth. No? All right. Councilmember Briggs? >> I motion to approve. >> Councilmember Gregory? >> Second. >> We have a motion in the board for agenda item 4L. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries 7-0. Moving on to agenda item 4Q, item for individual consideration as pulled from the consent agenda. Consider adoption of an ordinance awarding a contract to upgrade the supervisory control and data acquisition network equipment utilized by Dent Municipal Electric. >> Good evening, Council. I'm Melissa Craft. I'm the chief technology officer for the City of Denton. So in regards to this request, the request has really three major components. It's to upgrade the network switch upgrade, also some long- range optics in preparation for the new deck, and also for professional services. >> Okay. Any questions? Seeing none, thank you. We do have a card wishing to speak. Mr. Williams-Husbeth, would you like to speak? Thank you, sir. Councilmember Gregory? >> I move approval of item Q. >> All right. Councilmember Ryan? >> I move approval second. >> We have a motion and a second for agenda item 4Q. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries 6-1. We will now, that concludes our portion of the consent agenda and those items which have been pulled from the consent agenda. So we'll move on to agenda items 5, which are items for individual consideration, consideration of the use of eminent domain. 5A will be considered adoption of an ordinance of the City of Denton, excuse me, determining the public use, need, and necessity for the acquisition of a temporary, sorry, a sanitary sewer easement, encumbering .128 acres of real property, et cetera, et cetera. Good evening, I'm Paul Williamson, real estate manager, mayor, councilmembers. Before you tonight is an ordinance making findings of public use and necessity, authorizing staff to make offers to purchase and, if necessary, to use eminent domain to acquire the subject property tracks for both the Bonnie Bray widening and improvements project and the Hickory Creek sanitary sewer interceptor project phase two. Upon a favorable motion, I will proceed to display the affected property track and the slated acquisition tracks on the overhead screen. >> Councilmember Gregory. >> Thank you, mayor. I move that the City of Denton, after having made the offers required by state law, use the power of eminent domain, if needed, to acquire a san itary sewer easement on a 0.128 acre tract of land, a temporary construction easement on a 0.191 acre tract of land, and fee simple title to a 1.694 acre tract of land, and an access and utility easement on a 0.186 acre tract of land. All are situated in the S Pritchett Survey, abstract number 1004, and the J Edmunds Survey, abstract number 400, Denton County, Texas, and now being displayed on the overhead screen and being described in attachment one to the ordinance under consideration, all of which are for a valid public use, necessary to provide for the street drainage and sanitary sewer system improvements related to the Bonnie Bray widening and improvement project and the Hickory Creek sanitary sewer interceptor phase two project, both projects to serve the public and citizens of the City of Denton. I believe we've been displaying the legal description in the survey, so is that sufficient time? Yes. All right. Before I recognize the second and the question, we do have a public comment from, well, let me go with the question for staff. Is this a question for staff? Council Member Briggs? Yeah, go ahead, and then we'll have a public comment. Is this the same section of Bonnie Bray widening that Council asked to see other routes before because there was a section? Is this the same or is this different? This is the south section. The south, okay. From Rose Lawn to Vintage Parkway. This is necessary to work the bridges that are down there now in the bottoms. Gotcha. Okay, thank you. Mr. Willie Hesbeth, come state your name and address. Time will begin. Point of order. Wasn't this supposed to happen before the motion? What's that? Me speaking. I don't know if there's, I mean, we haven't taken a vote on it yet, so I mean, whatever comments you have certainly will be considered and taken under advisement. Answer the question for me. I don't think it's inappropriate. I mean, the motion was made, but I haven't recognized the seconder yet. I haven't recognized the motion has to be made while he's showing the legal description. So I don't know how to answer your question. I don't think it's out of order. No, sir. Okay. Yes, sir. You don't. Okay. Yes, that's right. Okay, good. But we'll get clarification for you, for sure. Absolutely. My name is Willie Hesbeth. I live at 622. I don't like to be called a liar. That just bugs me. So yeah, I want clarification on it and I want to see it in writing. The reason I wanted to speak is I've been talking about this since 1990 when the then city council was talking about eminent domain. I invested in my home on Bonnie Bray. Now you're getting closer and closer to me. You're on the south end and then pretty soon you're going to be on the north end, maybe. Keep asking and no one knows what you're going to do. But I invested in that property. I would rather keep it rather than to sell it for less than what I think it's worth. And I know what the market value is for that property. I wish there was some way I could keep it, but I realize it 's right in the middle of the plan for the widening of that thoroughfare of Bonnie Br ay. So I understand that. You have to, citizens, we have to do what's required to make it good for everybody. But I do not want my property and my investment to come down to some arbitrary wording so that you can get it for less than what I think it's worth. So I just want to make sure on the record that I keep saying this. So when you cross 35 and you come north and you hit my property, I want the property, the money that it is valued and worth. That's what I want. All right. Thank you. Councilmember Gregory, you've made your motion. We've seen the legal description. Councilmember Ryan. I will second the motion. All right. We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries unanimously. We're going to move on to agenda items for six, which are items for individual consideration. I've had a request to move agenda item 6E to the front. I've looked at agenda items A, B, C, and D, and they seem like city contracts. But is there any objection to that? And if so, I would, you know, or if not, any objection to that, colleagues? Okay. All right. Okay. We're going to go ahead then and call agenda item. Let me get the cards ready. 6E, which is considered approval of a resolution of the city of Dent, Texas in support of the lawsuit filed by the city of Senizo, Texas against the state of Texas regarding Senate Bill 4. There we go. Okay. I'm going to just give you a brief summary of some of the research that we've done in our legal department about Senate Bill 4. You have in your backup a draft resolution. We've provided copies as you walked in of this draft resolution. But before we really go into any of that, I just want to kind of outline how I hope the discussion to go. And so I'm going to present just from a high level what is SB 4 as is written. Obviously, there's been some litigation both in the Western District Court and the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. But without getting too much into that, before we get to there, I'd like also for our police chief if the council would entertain an opportunity for him to describe how SB 4 impacts the police department, but before that, should I go just a basic what is SB 4? Sure. That'd be fine. Just give a summary and then we'll have deputy police chief come down and give the presentation and answer any questions. As is seen, just from a very, very basic rule, a basic summary of all the discussions going on between the courts and what SB 4 is, the general rule is that a local entity can adopt, enforce or endorse a policy that prohibits or discourages the enforcement of immigration laws. It goes into a discussion of what I've termed here patterns in practice and then identifies certain things that the entities can't do to limit peace officers. In addition, there are penalties imposed by Senate Bill 4. Here I've listed those penalties against the police chief for violating Senate Bill 4 and those against elected or appointed officials. In addition, there is a penalty for governmental entities as a whole, but that's just a very basic, very basic presentation. At this point, unless there's questions from the council, I 'd like to bring up the deputy chief Fletcher. Sure. Any questions from council or staff? Thank you. Baron Council, I appreciate the opportunity to address this issue for you. From a practical standpoint, operational standpoint from the police department, Senate Bill 4 really doesn't make any effect to the way we normally do our business. As I said to you earlier today, the operation of interacting with citizens from the police department perspective at the local level rarely involves questions about someone's immigration status. It just simply isn't in the realm of what we do or what we need to do to do our job. That status has no bearing on us in terms of the services we provide or really any role in the process at all. In terms of the vast majority of our interactions with citizens are as victims or witnesses in crimes. Again, there's just no place for an immigration status to come up there. In my 26 plus years here, I've never once had the need to ask someone their status related to investigating a crime. It just simply isn't a factor. There is language in Senate Bill 4 that protects witnesses and victims from those kind of questions. The primary place where any kind of immigration status comes up will be someone that is already in custody on some of the charge. We do have to identify people that are in custody. We have to provide identifying information to state and national databases. We do know that immigration officials on the local level monitor our jail logs. It is not uncommon for them to at times reach out to us and ask questions about someone's in our custody. At times they'll make requests to interview people that are in our custody and as we would with any other law enforcement agency, we're cooperative in those efforts if the person in question chooses to speak with them. In terms of any of their requests, if they tell us they have a detainer they want to place in someone, we honor that request. We've done that prior to Senate Bill 4 and we continue to do that now. About the only time that there's an involvement for us in terms of reaching out to an immigration is if we have someone that would fit into a category of some question about their status who we determine is posing a significant criminal threat to the safety of our citizens and our community and we might reach out as we would with anyone else for some tool to help us try to resolve that threat. With that I'll be happy to answer any questions. Any questions from staff? Seeing none, thank you. Will you be available in case there's some questions later on from staff? Thank you. What I'd like to do at this point, unless there are specific questions as to the previous litigation, ongoing litigation, Fifth Circuit Court of Appe als, just kind of talk about what our research entailed, reviewed the trial document and briefing both from the Western District and the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. We had meetings with LULAC representatives and those from MALDEF and we surveyed participation, how their cities, Texas cities participated in response to Senate Bill 4. Our analysis is at this point the period for intervention has expired. Elsa Nissel's briefing schedule we learned recently was shortened from submissions were required by October 26th and they were shortened to October 20th. And we have reached out to outside counsel from MALDEF who is actually drafting the amicus brief and they'll be requiring additional information to support the adverse impacts that Senate Bill may have to Denton. We also in talking with MALDEF, they don't anticipate having enough time for the cities to review this amicus brief. The earliest they can get to cities is to anticipate sometime on Thursday, this Thursday, right before the October 20th deadline. They are, MALDEF is still accepting resolutions in support of their legal efforts and for that reason we have this item before you. At this point are there any questions as to any of the litigation or? Any questions for staff at this point before we take public comment? All right, thank you. Okay, we're going to go ahead and start public comment. What I'm going to do is call the first name and the second one and so the second will be ready to come when the first one is finished. So our first speaker will be, make sure I got them all. First speaker will be Miguel, is it Telles? Is it? Telles. I'm sorry, I apologize. If you could state your name and address and your time will begin. All right. Oh, it didn't ask that. That's all right. Good evening, my name is Miguel Telles. My address is 2815 Clivell Street, Dallas. I ask that you support this resolution because of the following reasons. I we can not deny that immigrants have the heaviest burden as they are the ones that build, they build our streets. And I think that it is unjust that even though we receive the lowest salaries, our lives are still overburdened. In the past, the city of farmers branch tried an unconst itutional law and had to pay more than $27 million. And this is something that the city had to pay and they also paid by having a reduction of their social services. I had another point, but at the moment I forgot. So this is one of the main reasons that I wanted to share with you, which is about our hard work and our contributions. Thank you. Thank you. The next speaker will be Lillia. It will be Lillia. Is it Garway? Garay. I apologize. Lillia Garay. Well, I don't see Lillia, but is in support of the resolution. It resides at 1812 McCormick Street. Lillian Camillo is the next speaker. And then the one after that will be Mr. Willie Hutzpeth. Lillian, state your name and address and your time will begin. Okay, my name is Lillian Prado Carrillo. My address is 6504 Corral Lane, Texas, 76210. I've spoke to you all before. This is my second time. My daughter also spoke to you on behalf, and so we've been visiting you quite often. I would just like to say I've talked to some of you. I've talked to a lot of people. We come here, I think most of us, with a full and heavy heart because we know that this is something that is going to affect our family. As much as police and our amazing police department here in Denton will say that this has no effect, that this will not change, that this is not going to hurt anyone, there is already a fear in our community here in Denton. And I know that's true because I see it at the school that I serve. I see it with our parents. I've shared before that we have parents that are coming in and signing power of attorneys in case they get picked up and they don't make it home that day. We've had children that come in in the mornings and their parents have been deported. And so this is true and this is happening. I would just like to share that a lack of action right now is a lack of leadership. I know that we missed our time. I know that the person before me said that the time has already expired for us to join on this lawsuit as Denton. But this resolution that you guys are taking is also an action that as a city we can ask you guys to do. A lack of empathy towards our families who are being separated, that is also a choice. So whether we move, I think some of the sentiment from some of you has been whether we'll at Denton join or they don't join, or does it really matter, this is a national issue, this is a state issue. It's not. What you do today and what you decide and how you vote, that does matter. And it matters to us, who are looking. It matters to the people that vote you and to the positions that you're in. And those are positions that I know are very difficult. I know that you are, sacrifice your time, your family, that you are a public servant. We understand that and we acknowledge that and we appreciate that. But I also want you to understand that you have a responsibility with that. The Secretary of Homeland Security I read today gave a directive to immigration officers to portray immigrants that are taken up in raids nationally across the country as criminals. They are criminalizing our people. So just like the gentleman that came up here and spoke, these are people that are working hard who hardly have criminal records. And in these raids and these sweeps that are happening across the country, this is what they're being portrayed as, as criminals and we're separating families. You might think, well, this is a national thing. What does that have to do with Texas? What does that have to do with Senate Bill 4? In Austin alone, 51 people were taken up by raids. Most of those people did not have a criminal record. What Senate Bill 4 is, is it's a gateway law. It's a gateway law that's allowing people to come in and already start making these decisions. Even though we say that nothing is going to change at will. In the proclamation that you said today, Mayor, the domestic violence awareness says that all people have the right to be free and to live free from oppression and fear. Do we also have that right? As a person who is Hispanic, will I have the opportunity to call the police department and to feel free that my documentation, my status isn't going to be questioned? I know that on that end to me, maybe their best intentions will happen, but that fear in me and in the people that look like me and that I represent, that fear is still prevalent and it is still there. I want just to make sure that you all understand that we do , we are looking at who is voting, who will vote against this and who will vote for it and we are aware and we do have a voice. Thank you for your time. We've got a lot of speakers, probably about 25 or 30 at least, so if you could just hold your applause and let us proceed through this, that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Mr. Willie Hutspeth, you're up. And then the next person that will speak will be Ann Jordan . Mayor and council members, my name is Willie Hutspeth. I live in 623 Newton. I became aware of my race in a negative sense in 1955, 1955 . When someone yelled at me, an older gentleman telling me where to go and use the N word, I didn't know what that was. I didn't know. So I reacted with what? Since that time to today, I still go through that as an African American people yelling at me. I don't know if the rest of you, when you approach a car, just what happened to me Sunday, and someone, a white woman is in it, they locked the door and they do it all the time. I just learned to just kind of look for it and I have this clicking sound dance that I go through when they do it. That's the locked door. I'm saying this to say I understand what my Hispanic brothers and sisters are going through. It is just horrible. You know, we're speaking to you and we don't know what you 're thinking. We don't know what you can do. I don't really know. I just know we need to say something and then hopefully someone will do something. So I'm telling you, I know what they're going through. As I said earlier, I still go through it today. What is it that they're going through? They are looked at based on what they look like, what they sound like, and then what follows is something that's negative. So you ought to just vote for something positive for them now. They work hard. They work hard. I use them. I'll use anyone who works hard and they work hard and I can 't imagine sending your child off to school not knowing if you'll be home when they get back there. That's an awful feeling. So I'd say vote and vote positively for them. Thank you. Thank you. Ann Jordan is up and the next speaker will be Stephanie D aly. Good evening. I'm Ann Jordan, 3345 Linda Lane in Denton. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to speak tonight. I am here in support of your resolution that supports the lawsuit against the state of Texas. I support your stance in protecting the residents of Denton from racial profiling and providing a safe place for our students and their families to live. I support your stance supporting the city's right to make determinations about its own residents and to keep its residents safe. I can't imagine the fear of being a parent. I am a parent, but I can't imagine the fear of wondering if you're going to be picked up and deported and your children are going to be left with no one to watch them because they're American citizens and you're not. I can't imagine what kind of fear that would be. And so I am proud of Denton for this resolution. I support it. I think it is a way for us to stand up and say in Denton, Texas, we care about all the residents here and we will protect them. We will protect their lives. We will not allow them to be intimidated and we will not allow them to be treated improperly. Thank you very much. Thank you. Next speaker is Stephanie Daly. And then after Stephanie will be Alexis Linehoff. Is Stephanie here? Daly, D-A-I-L-E-Y 1107 Hillcrest. If not, they are in support of the resolution. Alexis Linehoff? Choosing not. Oh, okay. Is in support of the resolution. Lauren Wedgworth? Next speaker. Lauren here? Okay. Lauren is in support. Please protect our friends, neighbors, and families from this dangerous bill. Please join the lawsuit to fight it and keep our people safe. Jordan Villarreal. Jordan, come down. And after Jordan will be Joseph Sweeney. Jordan will state your name and address, your time will begin. Howdy. My name is Jordan Villarreal. I'm from 1815 Maple Street, Denton, Texas, district three. I just want to say I am in support of the resolution. We cannot allow people to live in fear anymore. All this resolution does is it makes people fear calling the police department. You're going to wonder if I'm calling the police department to report a domestic violence dispute. Is now the time they're going to deport me while I'm trying to go to them for help? It makes parents wonder, am I going to be able to see my kids after school today or will I be sent to a deportation center? All it does is instills fear within our community. It does nothing to protect our community and it's going to send our police department down a slippery slope towards racial profiling. And I stand in support of the resolution. Thank you. The next speaker will be Joseph Sweeney. If you'll come down, state your name and address. And after that is Matteo Prenada. Hello. My name is Joseph Sweeney. I'm currently living at 221 West Prairie Street, room 225. I am speaking in support of the resolution because the Senate bill is a symbolic measure of a first step towards pushing how much we can get away with profiling against the Hispanic and Latino communities. And if it passes without resistance, that will send a message to people who would be motivated to discriminate like this, that they can keep pushing and keep pushing and keep racial profiling and eventually just start taking away rights altogether from human beings who deserve better from us, for their families, for our future. Thank you. Thank you, Joseph. Matteo is up and then Jennifer Lane is on deck. Hi. My name is Matt Prenada. I live at 1225 Tulane Drive in District 3 and like a lot of our constituents, we support this initiative. My grandmother's people came here in the 1800s. My grandfather's people were what they call Texians. They always have been and always were. So we've kind of been around for a long time, even though I like to joke that I'm the grandson of a bastard out of the hill country, which is true. When I was young, I lived in a small town about 40 miles outside of San Antonio. And every weekend I would get pulled over by local sheriff 's department and they would call me Juan or Jose, things like that, even though they knew my name. They liked to ask me if I had papers, even though they saw my driver's license. It was kind of cool because once they let me go, I knew they weren't going to bug me for the rest of the night and I could do whatever I wanted as a teenager, which is a small consolation. But the fact of the matter is, whatever SB4 says it is, we know that it has the potential to do other things. It has the potential to create a space where people who like to harass people can harass people. Now, I know that most of the police in Denton are good people, but you have bad apples from time to time. We saw that in Gainesville a couple of months ago where the hot cops were bringing stuff to the Harvey victims. And it turned out one of them was very anti-Semitic. And we know that that guy liked to post about harassing people. Now the thing with SB4 is if one of these guys decided to do that, to harass people, there would be no way to curtail him because if his bosses and everything tried to curtail him, he could blame them for impeding him for performing on his job on SB4 and they would be held liable. That is a problem. It opens a barrel that can contain bad apples. So I support you guys supporting El Siniso. Sorry, I almost forgot the name of the place. I stand behind the people of this town because this is not about Mexicans. You don't have to like Mexicans. You can still hate them if you want. This is about good and decent people. This is about giving a voice to people who need a voice and protection to people who need protection. And I believe all of you are good and decent people. And I think all of you know that there is a potential for people to be hurt. And I think it's incumbent on you to do the right, moral, and just thing and support this measure. Thank you. Thank you. Jennifer Lane is the next speaker. Good evening. My name is Jennifer Lane. I live at 1526 Willowood Street and I'm really glad to be able to speak. We had a competition at my school. Four of the five finalists are immigrants. One of them is my student and I will be able to make it to hear her sing in the finals because this is going well. Now the taxpayers have paid for all the hours of all the people and all the time and staff so forth on SB4. Those who are for it want us to believe that it changes nothing. If it changes nothing, why has our time and our money been wasted on such a redundant law? The city needs to take a stand. Joining the suit would have been the best thing to do and this resolution is the least that we can do for many, many reasons. People are afraid to go to the hospital. They're afraid to go to the police. They have all kinds of fears. Some of it's rational, some of it's irrational, but we don 't need to exacerbate it. We don't need to increase it. City can protect itself with this resolution. It can claim that we tried. SB4 is on the wrong side of the law and we know that. There's no cost to the city to join the suit, which we no longer have the opportunity to do. There's no risk. MALDEF and ACLU are taking care of that. These are our neighbors. These are ourselves. My neighbor who came to a town hall with me was afraid, but she came. She had the courage to go. She was too afraid to come tonight, but sent a message. Council members who don't hold town halls cannot claim to know what all of their constituents think. Even those who do hold town halls, it's hard to know what all of your constituents think. It takes work, but those who do not cannot claim to be representing all of their constituents. Thank you very much. Please vote for this resolution. It's vitally important for all of you, for your lives, for your future, for all of us to be proud of your work. Thank you. The next speaker is it AHISAN, is it Hicks? 1621 Maple Street. Okay. All right, you're in support of the resolution. Shane Warren is the next speaker, followed by Catherine Lus gard. Hello, my name is, is this working? Yes, yes. Okay. Hello, my name is Shane Warren. I live on 1815 Maple Street. I'm coming out in support of the resolution. If you can tell by my taped over glasses, I'm a student at UNT, you know, life's pretty busy. So I've been a student my whole life, that's my experience, and I went to schools, you know, in Houston and in Belton with all kinds of people from all ethnicities, races, faiths, and backgrounds. We got along, we worked together, we played together, we made jokes together. Sometimes we procrastinated together. But you know, it turns out that if you ask somebody, you know, do you have the legal right to be here, that kind of ruins the mood, it kind of breaks the community. I'm not sure why, but I can tell you that you fast forward into the high school and then you fast forward to me choosing my college, and I picked UNT. And though it's a great school, the ultimate reason I chose to come here is because of Denton and what I saw in this town. When I go to the square at night, I see people who are drawing cartoons of people for free. I see people from all walks of life who are just performing to get like a quarter inside of their little guitar case. I see people who are just trying to escape from life for a little bit, enjoy the outdoors. There's lights that make it like Christmas and freaking August. It's amazing. But then I see a bill like this and I think, well, what about the people who are afraid to go out and participate in community events? Are we going to ignore them? And though we say nothing's going to change, if nothing is going to change, what is the risk of supporting this resolution? I can say that me and everyone, almost everyone in this room stands with support in this resolution. And I feel that if we make Denton the kind of town that I think it is, that we would support this resolution. A town that protects people, that wants us to have an integrated community, that doesn't make this arbitrary distinction between legal and illegal. Because these people are working here. These people are going to our schools. Some of them go to our universities. And at the local level, in practice, the distinction is a piece of paper. And we all know that these people are part of our community . And I guess that's all I have to say. Make Denton the town that I saw when I came here, not the one that can be bleakly portrayed. Okay, thank you. Catherine is up. And then next speaker will be Paxton Swisher. My name is Catherine Lusgarten. I live at 11809 Sutherland Drive in Denton. First, I'd like to thank the council for bringing this resolution to the table. Obviously, there's very great many important reasons to oppose Senate Bill 4 related to its aggressive stance against immigrants. Folks that have come who want to live in our community and want to participate and build a better life for themselves enrich our lives, the folks who already live here. But I want to address another reason why we need to oppose this resolution. Many of us in Denton still sting smartly from the slap in the face that the state government imposed on us a few years ago when we wished to determine our own destiny by passing laws related to safety of gas well fracking. Senate Bill 4 is yet another example of a way that the state, some members of the state government egregiously overreach their authority and try to suppress local determination. Our local police and our local officials are the best folks to determine what's right for Denton. We can allow the state to continually impose its will in opposition to the will of the people that have spoken. This bill tries to handcuff our police from doing the job that we've asked them to do to protect all of the residents of our city. This bill tries to muzzle our government officials, the folks that we the people have elected to govern us. We have to stand alongside with El Sinizo and other communities around the state to tell the state that we will not be denied our constitutional right to self-determine our local government. And so I not only hope that this resolution will pass tonight, but I hope that it will pass unanimously. Thank you. Thank you. Paxton Swisher and then up next would be Samantha Hobson. State your name and address and your time will begin. Hi there. My name is Paxton Swisher. I live at 200 South Bonnebray. There's nothing really I can add that hasn't been said before. I hope you guys make the right decision. Protect all residents in Denton. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Samantha is up and then Deb Armatar. Samantha Hobson, 115 North Austin Street, Denton, Texas. I just want you to vote in support of joining this resolution. And if there's anyone in the chamber that is in support of this bill, I ask you to stand right now. In support of the resolution. These are your constituents. And I just want to take a moment to think about all of the ones that cannot come here and tonight to speak for themselves in fear of being dep orted. So just please vote with your hearts and your conscience and think about all of your constituents that are here tonight in support of joining the resolution against as before. Thank you. Thank you. And then up next is Adam Dunstan. Deb Armatar, 2003 Mistywood Lane. Thank you for putting this resolution on the agenda. I am glad that some action is finally being taken now. I was disappointed that it took so long to finally make it to a work session discussion. And I'm very sad that it's so close to the deadline. But that has passed and can't be changed. I am thrilled with what I heard those of you in support say at the work session. You each had something different and really moving to say in support about your concerns about the constitutionality of this bill. I want to say Chief Howell isn't here but when SB4 was first in the news, I sat down to meet with him because I was deeply worried about what this bill would mean for my friend's neighbor's community, my children's friends at their school . He met with me for three hours. I didn't know how long it would be going over this law with me. He was deeply concerned. And of course, I can't speak for him. I'm speaking for myself and my own experience. But he explained to me about his philosophy of community policing which is something that I support very much. And that is, as most of you probably know, the idea that the police should not be there to try to crack down on communities but to protect and help communities. He has done so many things and our police have been doing so many things to try to combat negative stereotypes about the police. This SB4 would really destroy all of that even if nobody on the police were to take advantage of it. It would create fear into communities that--not create fear , it would build on fear that already is there for good reason. We have this list called the Brady List which is something that I think all of you know about and I find really disturbing and that is a list of police officers who have not been following the rules here in Denton. And these are the kind of people who would be able to take advantage of SB4. So we do--we have mostly good cops but we do have some bad cops and there's a list of them called the Brady List and the best way to support our police is to support the good cops and to make sure whatever bad cops that there are out there are not on the force. But anyway, thank you so much for considering this resolution and I was deeply moved by what those of you in favor had to say about it. Thank you. Thank you. Adam Dunstan? Is Adam here? Oh, okay. Didn't know if--is Adam here? No, Adam's in support. 2425 North Locust. Sandy Swan is up and then Mariela Nunes Jones. Name and address please. Sandy Swan, 1413 Cambridge Lane, Denton, 76209. I ask the council to approve the resolution supporting the lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of SB4. I sat through the work session this afternoon and I have one concern that I wanted to address that was voiced in the work session and there was a phrase in there about protecting the constitutional rights of all citizens and I wish the council to consider phrase instead of any people in Denton because constitutional rights apply to every person not just citizens. If you're a visitor here from anywhere in the country or you're a resident regardless of your status, you still have constitutional rights. Thank you. Council Member Gregory? Ma'am, you might be--I put this in the form of a question, you might not know that section 3 now states, "Be it further resolved that the City of Dent on has always and will always comply with state and federal law to preserve the safety and welfare of all Denton residents and visitors and will always protect the constitutional rights of all Denton residents and visitors." Okay. All right. Mariela is up and then Stephen, is it Leach? Sorry if I mispronounce that. Hi, good evening. My name is Mariela Nunez-Janes and I live in 3449 Lake Country Drive. In August, I had the opportunity to share with you three reasons why Denton should join the lawsuit against SB4. One, because SB4 makes Denton less safe, two, because SB4 creates fear, three, because SB4 fuels hate. Today I want to underscore the human side of SB4 and talk about the incredible fear incited by an irrational law that has already been deemed mostly unconstitutional by a San Antonio judge. About 10 years ago, one of my students suddenly stopped coming to class, although it's not unusual in college, it was unusual for this student. I received an email from his friend stating that he was indisposed and that he wanted to make sure that I knew that he would be catching up with any missing classwork as soon as he could. I was alarmed instantly because I knew that if he could not email me himself, something terrible must have been going on. So I inquired further. My student was detained at Denton County for a minor traffic violation. He was pulled over for a missing tail light, got nervous because he did not have a driver's license and told the officer that he was from Mexico and he was undocumented. He had a clean record except for the sins of his father who drove his mother to escape the abuse of her husband by migrating from Mexico and providing her children the hope of an education and a better future. Yet there he was in jail, surrounded by criminals, and realizing for the first time that despite his best intentions and efforts, there was nothing he could do to separate himself from them. Traumatized by this realization and under the pressure of an ICE officer as he was transported from Denton to the processing center in Dallas, he signed a voluntary departure and he was deported within 24 hours to Mexico, left in an isolated part of a border town and returned to a place he vaguely remembered. So fast forward 10 years later to today and what seems like an isolated incident has become more commonplace and widespread. Deportations were at an all-time high during the previous presidential administration and ICE arrests are currently under an all-time high as well. State-owned detention centers are widespread in places like Texas, programs like DACA, temporary protective status, and family reunification are being cut or are currently threatened and laws like SB4 are actually pushing police and trusted public officials to act like border patrols. So tonight I ask you not to cave into incredible fear, but instead to actually take the opportunity to respond to incredible fear through incredible leadership . We Dentonites have spoken through our words and our actions . We are committed to an empathetic and compassionate community that fosters dignity and we ask you to take a definitive stance on behalf of all Dentonites and support this resolution. Thank you. Stephen is up. And on deck is Dr. Andrea Silva. My name is Stephen Leach. I live at 2913 Englefield Green Drive. I wrote everything out so I'm going to do it that way. First I want to thank you all for listening to the voices of the residents and putting this resolution up to a vote. I wish this could have been done in time to join the lawsuit ourselves, but that time has passed and this is the next best thing. I didn't get to attend the work session this afternoon, but I wanted to be sure to be here this evening, especially after what I hear my council member said about not supporting this resolution and that in doing so he is representing his constituency. What I find terribly interesting about this is that as important as SB4 is and this resolution is, I don't see a single one of those constituents that are here tonight in opposition of this resolution. To drive that point home, I would like to ask the members of District 3 that are against SB4 in the audience to please stand quickly and then be seated. Thank you if you could please be seated. And now if the members of District 3 that are for SB4 could please stand and then quickly be seated. As you can see, it is a stark contrast. So where are those people? As a former infantryman in the U.S. Army that has served in Iraq and Afghanistan and has seen how much greater America can be, it baffles me how an American can be so heartless to people who want to call this country home. I hope you can all find it in your hearts and have the compassion to support this resolution. Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Andrea Silva and then on deck. Genevieve Castellanos will be on deck. Hi, I'm Andrea Silva. I live at 313 Wayne White Street and I'd like to change my card to officially support the resolution and oppose SB4. So I actually got my PhD in 2016 and I study immigration federalism. So SB4 is actually something that I am familiar with. I'd like to share my opinions. One is a constitutional no. This piece of legislation is in violation of the plenary power of the federal government to enforce and execute immigration legislation. States have no jurisdiction to make laws regarding the execution of immigration policy even if that law is to enforce immigration law. Two, it violates the 14th Amendment which states no state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process nor deny any person within its jurisdiction an equal protection of the law. The writers of this amendment knew the difference between citizens and residents. They enshrined protections from citizens, from state infringement and of persons who may or may not have citizenship due process and equal protection under the law. Sanctuaries cities do not allow dangerous criminals to run free and do not inhibit the search and capture of dangerous criminals. The problem with secure communities is that it does not only catch dangerous criminals, not even mostly dangerous criminals, not even 50% dangerous criminals. It burdens law enforcement and detains people irrespect ively whether or not they've committed a crime. In 2013, 48% of the 300,000 people that were deported by ICE had committed no crime. How many of those folks deported had committed a violent crime? About 13% which is 43,000 people. That's a very small number. The justification for secure communities at the state level is that it reduces crime. But looking at the data empirically, that's actually not true. A 2017 Center for American Progress analysis compared sanctuary counties to non-sanctuary counties and found that on average there are 35.5 fewer crimes committed per 10,000 people in sanctuary counties compared to non-sanctuary counties. Crime is actually higher in places that are not sanctuary cities. Further, sanctuary counties are more prosperous on average than non-sanctuary communities. The median household income is higher, about $5,000. The poverty rate is about 2% lower. The employment rate is 2% lower. And sanctuaries with a small population see the most profound effects. Example Denton. Citizens have the right to ask for laws to be changed. That's true. Council members also have a responsibility to represent and protect our residents and ensure they live in a prosperous city. Secure communities increases fear, resentment, and cost in city and empirically speaking does little good in exchange. Standing up to SB4 is the way the city can publicly and in the words of Dr. Martin Luther King bend the arc of history towards justice. Thanks. >> Thank you. Jen Aviva? Yes. Is it? Thank you. And then is it Charlie? Hermes? >> Good evening. My name is Jen Aviva Castellanos. >> I live in 9767 West Chapel Road. >> Dallas, Texas. >> I thank you for listening to us. >> [FOREIGN] >> Tonight we're asking you to support the lawsuit against SB4. >> [FOREIGN] >> There are lots of families that are worried. >> [FOREIGN] >> With children who are sick and they're now trying to think what's gonna happen with their children. >> [FOREIGN] >> I'm gonna tell you a little bit about my story. >> [FOREIGN] >> I have a grandson who is sick, who needs a lot of surgery. >> [FOREIGN] >> I've been thinking about what's gonna happen since in our family, neither his grandparents or his parents have papers. >> [FOREIGN] >> If SB4 comes into effect, just because we will be dep orted just because of the color of our skin. >> [FOREIGN] >> What's gonna happen to my grandson and to thousands of children like him? >> [FOREIGN] >> Every day he needs medicine and about every three to six months he needs medicine that's very, very expensive. >> [FOREIGN] >> And every time we go to the hospital with him, we see lots of parents who are asking themselves the same questions as us, what's gonna happen to our children? >> [FOREIGN] >> And that's because that's why I ask you. >> [FOREIGN] >> I ask you to please think of the children, don't think of their grandparents or their parents. Think about them. >> [FOREIGN] >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Charles Hermay? Oh, sorry. And then on deck will be Shelby Schramm. >> Charles Hermas, 70830 Call of Grand Prairie. , and then we'll have a little break. >> [BLANK_AUDIO] >> [BLANK_AUDIO] >> My friend had just spoke, only had a minute and a half to speak, so it would be unfair for me to take the whole three minutes. See, for her to speak to the city council, she has to be translated, and that translation took half her time. For me to be fair, I can only take that same amount of time , so I've spent the first minute and a half in translation of silence. >> If you could maybe speak to the microphone, cuz this is being recorded. >> So I spent the first minute and a half in the translation of silence. You see, when you're speaking Spanish to the city hall, you only have half the time as an English speaker has to speak. And I know when you put that law into effect, or put that rule into effect about the three minute speaker time, there was absolutely no racist intent to that rule whatsoever. There's absolutely no intent of harm at that three minute speaking time. And yet what it in effect does is cuts into half the Spanish speaker's voice. I don't have to be translated to speak to you. The problem with many laws that don't even intend to have harm is that they have unforeseen costs. They have impacts that aren't part of the intent. And the best way to know what the impact of a law is, the best way to know what the impact to a demographic of a rule is, is to listen to people from that demographic. The best way to know whether or not a law that you might not think is truly going to be problematic is problematic to a demographic is to listen to the voices of the people who are being impacted. Clearly the three minute speaker time did not have any bad intent behind it. And yet it cut my friend's speaking time into half. Half of it was translation. SB4 has much more obvious harms. Please stand against it. >> Thank you. Shelby Schramm. [SOUND] >> I'm sorry. Yes, I'm sorry. Council Member Hesbeth. Is it Charlie, right? >> Charles. >> Yes, if you could please. I have a question. I just want to thank you for making a great point, a unique point. >> Thank you. >> And well said. >> I teach ethics at UTA. >> What's that? >> I teach ethics at UTA. >> Yes sir. No, I just think that's fantastic because it, so my question is, is there, when you talk about, what are the impacts jump out at you that you, that you are aware of briefly? You know, the, or just top of mind, give me, give me, give me one that hits you. >> Impacts that hit me. >> Yes sir. As far as, as far as distinctions or things that are on your mind, I mean, you're here, you're, you're, you're verbose, you're. >> I mean, I, I, I know what it was like when my wife and I got, you know, forced out of our house. >> Sure. >> And we were, we were living in a place for quite a few years while I was finished my PhD. And guy moved in who didn't like the fact that we were a multiracial couple. He threatened to, to rape her and murder me. You know, we've, we've got these sorts of events that happen on a really regular basis and people don't hear it and we don't, we're not aware of it. The day after Trump was elected, my nephew, who's Korean, was told he was going to be deported. We look at things like SB4 and we think this is a Hispanic issue. It's not. It's a human issue. My, my, my, my Korean nephew isn't really in danger of being deported by ice step ups. But that doesn't change the fact that he's got Asperger's, he had a hard time adjusting in school. He finally got to school that he felt at home at. And the day after Trump was elected, he was told he was going to be deported by his classmates. You know, it's these sorts of harms that happen because as soon as we, as soon as we foster a culture where, where we don't care, as soon as we don't stand up to things like this, then it has all these effects that happen all over the place that you, you don't see on a daily basis. Okay. I mean, I guess you do see it on a daily basis, but you don 't, we blind, we close our eyes to it. Sure. You don't pay attention. Thank you for your perspective. Thank you. Okay, Shelby Schramm and then up is Oscar, is it Carillon? Shelby? Is Shelby here? 1706 Alcorn Drive in Ulysses is in support. Oscar? Is Oscar? Yes. Oscar, come down, state your name and address. Your time will begin. Good evening. My name is Oscar Carillon. I am a member for Tornalismo, DFW. I'm living in Carrollton, 2250 Marsh Lane. Sorry for my English. That's why I need a little help. I want to ask you to please support the lawsuit against us before. To show that it is not good to hate because all of us are human and we deserve the same respect. Without thinking about skin color and the place of where you were born. This is an attack, a racist attack against the immigrant community. There are programs already like secure communities that arrest real criminals. Do not allow that working families are separated. That children don't suffer because their parents are arrested and deported. Just because they don't have legal status. Because they are in a foreign country looking for a better future for their children. I think that probably you as parents would do the same thing to give your children a better future. I ask you to please make a decision as human beings. And to show that this great country is a country of opportunity. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Okay, those are all the cards I have wishing to speak. What I'm going to do is just read the names of those who have indicated support or opposition on the white cards or on the blue cards indicating that they do not wish to speak. I've got a total I think of 12 cards in support. I do have a question of clarification. Is Daniel Hernandez here? Support? Okay. Yeah. All right. Thank you. Okay. Daniel Hernandez support. Wendy Maladanado is in support. Amy Morgan 928 Parkside Drive in support. Amelia Garay I think we've had some of these duplicates 18 12 McCormick in support. Jadzia Tarassas is in support. Tamsen Price is in support. Mallory Skinner is in support. And that's in support of the resolution. Maria Melkor is in support. Victor Trevino in support. Andres Paco is in support. Deborah Mendoza is in support. So thank you all for your input and for being here tonight. Councilmember Briggs. So I had a few questions. Sure. Okay. So is this for staff or is this for just discussion? Well whichever do you want to open discussion? Sure. Or just a few follow-up questions? Yes ma'am. All right. So I guess for legal I have a few questions. We've heard tonight from our police that we are basically doing everything as far as immigration goes currently the SB4 is saying, but there are some issues within the SB4 that the lawsuit addresses which addresses the constitutionality of those. Can you just remind us on that? Because we do know already that we are doing what we need to do as far as immigration goes with the police. Sure. So the question is upon our review of what the courts have said in communicating with the police department if they're in compliance with the court determinations that our analysis is yes. Right. We are in compliance with that. But there is a lawsuit and we are considering a resolution for that lawsuit and it's not necessarily for the immigration part. It's for determining what is constituted. There's other parts of SB4 that are not constitutional. Correct. So a lot of the constitutional issues are First Amendment, 14th, 4th, and just a number of constitutional issues that the courts are debating right now. So the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, and the Four teenth Amendment. Among others, yes. Among others. Yes. Okay. So there's a lot of different things and we've heard sanctuary cities and not and it's not necessarily this is the lawsuit is not about that. And so I just wanted to make that clear for our citizens who have reached out to us and said specifically something about a sanctuary city. I wanted to be clear that we are not currently and by signing a resolution in support of this lawsuit we will not be even after that. So right. The point made earlier was that this concept of sanctuary cities is beyond the scope of this council. Right. So it's about constitution. Constitution. Right. Yes. Right. So I just wanted to get to make that clear for everyone and for our citizens out there. And so with that and a firm believer in the constitution and our rights for all I am going to move to support this resolution. Okay. Okay. Well we still. Can I hold applause please? We still have questions and discussion. Council Member Duff. Yeah. I have a question. Now the way I understand it all the parts of this bill are not being contested are they? The legal arguments before the courts are preemption and as I mentioned right now the courts are viewing the First Amendment constitutionality arguments along with the 14th and 4th. But there's some parts of it that they're not being challenged. Correct. Okay. Yes. Yeah. I just feel like I need to say something. I'm probably not going to vote for this. I think one of the things I think everybody forgets is why SB 4 came about. It came about because Austin and the sheriff there would not turn over criminals to ICE. That's what started the whole thing. And I don't want anybody to start calling me a racist because I am not. I got people that are getting on my roof next week. And I know who they are. They're hard workers. I've spent a lot of time in South Texas. I have builders down there that are Hispanic that I work with. And the people that build the houses that I'm building down there are built by Hispanics. The other thing I see in the city of Denton is we don't have a problem here. I don't think anybody that is here that's a Hispanic that is not a criminal has any reason to fear. I hate to see that fear going around everywhere. It shouldn't be there. Our police department, you know, I don't think they do any of the things that I've been hearing people talking about. So that's my side on it. And there's a lot of things in this resolution I absolutely agree with. But I don't like challenging the whole thing. And I can tell you this is going to go through the courts and the courts are going to decide. It's probably going to go to the Supreme Court. And they're going to decide what is constitutional and what is not. And when that is all settled, I will support the law. >> Councilmember Begheri, or Mayor Pro Tem, I'm sorry. >> It's okay. Well, some of you might know that I practice immigration law as a part of my practice. And it was a pretty busy day the day after the election. Things about everybody you can imagine was calling me clients, not clients, random people, just you name it, people were calling my office. The fear is really there. Now, even though it might not be founded in law, it could be founded in law in some cases, depends on your immigration status, depends on why you're here or how you got here. The fear is real. So I don't want to deny that. I acknowledge it. And I don't think that anything more needs to be said about it. It doesn't relate to why I'm going to be voting in favor of this resolution. From my perspective, the underlying law SB4, I'm going to set aside my gut feelings, which is that there is a racial component to it as there is to our entire body of immigration laws in this country. The fact of the matter is immigration laws are designed to help people of European and Christian descent come to this country and to prevent brown people from coming to this country. I didn't make that up. It's not racist. It's just what happens. That's how our immigration laws are. So that's real life. But that's not what this is about either in my mind. So I'm telling you all the things it's not about. It's really a constitutional matter. This legislature has lost their damn mind and they need to learn what the Constitution means. I want to read to you a part into the record from the San Antonio Court about what the procedural legislative history of this case, of this particular SB4, how it went down in the legislature. And I didn't know this stuff. When I came to city council today, I wasn't going to vote for this. And then I read this opinion. So laws have to be narrowly construed to achieve their purpose in order to be constitutional in this country, especially when they relate to freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, et cetera. I'm just going to calm myself down before I start reading this. This is on page 44. When a statutory provision explicitly regulates expression based on content, that's free speech. The provision is presumptively invalid and the government bears the burden to rebut that presumption. They're quoting law. The state's meager effort to defend the endorsement ban rings hollow. The state of Texas has not offered any viable suggestions as to how the endorsement ban could be narrowly construed and applied in a constitutional manner. The endorsement prohibition was intended to be sweeping in scope and breadth and it is not readily susceptible to a narrow or limiting construction. That narrowing construction is what makes laws legal. As the author of SB4 stated, quote, we get there through different ways, unquote. This is the court talking now. The legislature could have heeded the warnings and drafted SB4 with more precision, but it did not. I'm going to stop right there. What that tells me is that there were lawyers who told the legislators, look, this law is written too broadly to be legal. They decided that they didn't care about that. That's why I'm signing on to this because frankly, the rule of law matters and all of the people who say rule of law, rule of law, this didn't follow the rule of law and we're going to prove it in court and I'm happy to sign on to it. That's why I'm voting yes. [APPLAUSE] Any other comments from council members? Councilmember Ryan? Thank you, Mayor. I too, like our Mayor Pro Tem, came in today kind of trying to balance it all out, trying to figure out where to go. I spent the last couple of days reading through the brief ings from the court system, the bill itself. I've read at least eight times. I've got highlighted version, good, bad, indifferent, all over the place. But as I'm reading through the Fifth Circuit courts, which was the shorter one, the original one was 97 pages, the Fifth Court was I think six or eight pages. It was a little bit easier to digest in one setting. And the broadness in which this was written, the open-ended ness in which this was written, it makes it such that a comment from one of us on a Facebook post could end up in us being sued and taken out of office. And that takes away our First Amendment right. And because of that, I'm voting in support of this. [APPLAUSE] Councilmember Gregory? Well, I second the motion. Because I've got some comments I want to say, but I don't want to recognize them. Other than seconding the motion, I was very gratified at the discussion that we had this afternoon during our work session where all of the council members worked together to wordsmith the document to make it more reflective of the consensus of what we feel about the legislation standing with the city of El Sinizo. Anybody else before I? You know, the councilmembers? I will tell you, when I knew that this was coming before council, probably two or three weeks ago, I was anxious. I was anxious because of all the emotionality and the politicization that surrounds this whole issue. And I thought, how in the world am I going to make a decision that is rational for me and makes sense and has a foundation to it? And I thought, where do I go to get those answers? So I thought, well, the first place I'm going to go is I'm going to read the court's order for the injunction originally that went into effect. I think it was the 1st of September is when the law was supposed to come into effect. And everybody's right. It is 97 pages. I read the whole thing in about three hours. Now let me say, some of the law is in effect right now. You know, the court, which judicial, Western District Court ? And Federal District Court did not enjoin all the provisions of Senate Bill 4. And so as I read it, as I read the opinion, and when I finished, the answer was clear to me. The answer was very clear to me because it really comes down to an issue of law. And I think we need to be very clear about something because everybody's categorized this as a sanctuary city's bill or that if you support it, if you support SB 4, you're -- all kinds of names can be called to people that. If you're against it, you're for sanctuary cities. Well Denton is not a sanctuary city. First of all, there's not a clear definition of a sanctuary city, but the one that is typically used and recognized is sanctuary city is a city, like some of the cities on the West Coast, who have passed affirmative regulations saying that we will not comply with Federal law, Federal immigration law. That's sort of the generally accepted principle of what a sanctuary city is. The city of Denton has never passed an ordinance or a law that says we were going to ignore Federal regulation. The city of Denton today is not saying we're going to ignore Federal regulation or State regulation. The city of Denton tomorrow is not going to say we're going to enjoy -- ignore Federal immigration. To me, this is an issue of law. This is an issue of constitutionality. The opinion is very clear that there are several items in this bill that could be unconstitutional, and I will always support -- always support the right of a city, a citizen, a group of people, a company, you name it, to seek judicial review and redress for something that they believe is incorrect, because we do have three legs of government. We do have three branches, and we have three branches for a great reason, and that is for the checks and balances. So if somebody passes a law, if the legislature passes a law, or the Federal Government passes a law, people can challenge it, and it can go before the courts, and the courts can apply the rule of law today at the time and precedent and determine whether it's constitutional or not. I fully support that. That's what our democracy has been founded upon. So I'm going to support the resolution, because what it does is it says I support a person or an entity's right to challenge a law and to have it reviewed by the courts, and I will always support that, because whatever comes out in the end, whatever law is passed, whether it be the ones we think it will, whether it's all let in, whether half of it isn't, the City of Denton will abide by federal law and state law, just like when House Bill 40 was passed, the City of Denton abides by state law. But I certainly support the right of the plaintiffs to challenge the law based upon all the reasons that have been expressed here. For me, it just comes down to an issue of law and the rights of the people to take a law that they believe is unjust and petition the courts for remedy. So I support this resolution. It doesn't mean that Denton is a sanctuary city. What it means is Denton supports every individual's right to the constitutional rights provided by the United States Constitution. And as far as I know, in the last time I read, those are our rights, and we have every opportunity to redress it and bring it before the courts. So all the commentary that floats out there in either social media or on the news feed about how to label the narrative on this is very clear to me after reading that opinion. This is an issue for the courts to decide, because if the legislature overreaches and someone challenges it and the court renders it unconst itutional or pairs it back some, that's our system. And I trust that system and I have faith in that system. So that's why I will be supporting this resolution. So any more comment? Any more comment? Yes, Council Member Ryan. Mayor, can we have someone read the revised version? Sure, I'll read it. You can put it to the record. Sure. Basically, there's a lot of whereases. Those are just sort of telling the story of how we got to this place procedurally through the courts. Section 1 simply says the recitals and findings contained in the preamble of this resolution are incorporated into the body of this resolution. Section 2. Be it further resolved that the Mayor and City Council do not agree with some of the terms listed in Senate Bill 4 and support the plaintiff's legal efforts to object to Senate Bill 4 on grounds that such a law should be reviewed by the courts for constitutionality and preemption. Section 3, which we wanted to make this a separate section because it's important. Be it further resolved that the City of Denton has and always will comply with state and federal laws to preserve the safety and welfare of all Dent on residents and visitors and will always protect the constitutional rights of all Denton residents and visitors. This resolution shall become effective. So that's the modifications that were talked about in our work session. So that's the resolution as far as the substantive part of the resolution. Council Member Hussbett. Thank you. Briefly. I just want to - I didn't want to say anything, but I feel compelled. So I tell you, the reason I like Sean's comments so much is because I've been detained by the sheriff's department wrongly. I've been - I get the power locks on the square even though I have a suit on. My birth certificate - born here, Flow Hospital, Denton County document, your birth certificate, Denton County document. Mine doesn't say African American, doesn't say black, says Negroite. That's Denton County authorized document. That's 72. So for me, I appreciate Sean's comments because I don't need - I'm a member of the NAACP. I'm a member of the Denton County Republican Party. I'm married to a Latino. I have interracial kids. So I don't need - the unique aspect of it is what I appreciate. I can understand the other stuff. This doesn't take away fear. I mean, it just doesn't do that for me personally. Speaking for me personally, you have that every day. Am I going to get profiled? Am I going to get this? That's just occupational hazards living. I don't - I've never in my life been misconstrued for white . You know, so there's obvious issues that I have and so I don't need someone to come tell me about that part. I lived that for 42 years. I need someone to point out the spaces between. And so that's why I appreciate you Sean for pointing out the spaces between, not the obvious. So thank you. >> Okay. Any more comments? We have a motion and a second and I presume the motion is for the resolution as modified. Is that correct? And the second, is that correct? All right. Okay. All right. Let's vote on the board please. Motion carries 6-1. Let's take a break for 10 minutes. All right. Welcome back to this meeting of the Dent City Council, October 17th, 2017. It's about 9-12, 9-13. We're back to our agenda item 6, which items for individual consideration. We took up agenda item 6E, I believe it was, out of order, so we're going to resume back at 6A. And 6A is considered option of an ordinance of the city of Denton authorizing the city manager to execute professional service agreement for engineering design work, McKinney Street widening. >> Good evening, Mayor, councilmembers. I'm Chad Allen, the deputy city engineer and I'm here to present about the McKinney Street widening project. I'm specifically asking you to approve a professional engineering services agreement about the McKinney Street widening project between the city of Denton and Hew itt-Zollers, Inc. in the amount not to exceed of $1,358,300. This is a location map that shows the limits of the project . We're going to widen McKinney Street beginning on the west side from Woodrow Lane and extending on the east side to Grissom Road. In the middle we cross loop 288 and May Hill Road. The major goals of the project include widening McKinney Street from two to four lanes from Woodrow Lane to Grissom Road, constructing sidewalks throughout the project limits including east of loop 288 to Billy Ryan High School. That sidewalk was mentioned earlier during one of the presentations. We're going to construct underground drainage improvements and remove the roadside drainage ditches and we're going to resolve utility conflicts and also construct one of our CIP projects, a 20 inch water transmission line from loop 288 to May Hill Road. A little bit of background about the project. McKinney Street in this area used to be a text dot roadway and then in June of 2016 the city of Denton and text dot agreed to transfer McKinney Street out of the text dot state highway system and into the city of Denton roadway network. That was made official by the governor in July of 2016 and then in January of 2017 the city of Denton and text dot entered into an advance funding agreement and text dot transferred $18,267,303 to the city of Denton to be used to widen the road. We intend to use a design build process to design and construct McKinney Street. It's because we want to spend the money faster and get construction started faster. We also have deadlines from NETCOG that say that we need to start this project quickly so design build seemed like a good process. Design build will help us expedite completion of the project by allowing us to begin construction before we complete design. The design and the construction sort of go hand in hand. They can be done in steps. The design doesn't have to be finished first before we start building the project. Design build also encourages innovation and value by allowing the engineer and the contractor to work together and to solve complex, complicated problems during the design of the project. In order to do design build we have to hire an engineering representative and that's the contract we're talking about tonight. We want to hire Hugh Adzoller to represent us and then bring on the design builder. The engineering representative will conduct the project survey, gather data for the design process, will identify easement and right of way needs. They'll create preliminary construction plans. They'll help us bring on the design builder by doing an RFQ and an RFP and then throughout construction of the project they'll do construction administration and management. We selected Hugh Adzoller by going through a request for qualifications. We received two statements of qualifications from two engineering firms, Hugh Adzoller's and Friesen Nichols. A city review panel scored the SOQs. We gave Hugh Adzoller's a score of 89 points and Friesen Nichols a score of 74 points and each company was invited to an interview and a presentation and in the end we believe that Hugh Adzoller should be awarded the contract. That's what we're asking you to do tonight. The contract includes basic services and special services, basic services in the amount of $402,300 and special services in the amount of $944,000. There's also reimbursable expenses of $12,000 so it's a total not to exceed contract of $1,358,300. The basic services includes the preliminary engineering design, creation of 30% preliminary construction plans and then the final sealed construction plans for the concrete sidewalk to Billy Ryan High School. Special services include all the other data collection and design needed for the design builder to build the project. Includes drainage studies, surveys, environmental investigations, public outreach, bringing on the design builder and then assistance throughout construction. These are some of the issues we've identified so far in the very beginning that are associated with the project. We're going to modify the vertical profile of McKinney Street so we need to make sure all of the roadways and driveways tie in in a safe manner. There's parallel utilities, gas lines, communication lines, overhead electric lines, water and sewer lines that we need to relocate or avoid. There's an irregular intersection at Grissom that we're going to try to fix and then there's major roadway crossings of drainage of water at Mack Park and at Ashley Oaks and at Ryan High School. The estimated schedule is shown on this slide. We want to begin design this month, hopefully after the contract is approved. The design will take about a year and end in October 2018. We're hoping to identify easement needs and acquire the right of way during the same time period. Then we're going to bring on the design builder by April of 2019 and then the final design and construction will occur sort of at the same time through the design build process and hopefully end in October 2020. That's our estimated schedule. This is a more detailed schedule. I put it for you for backup. We recommend authorizing the professional engineering services agreement with Hughes Allers Inc. in the amount of $1,358,300. Questions? Councilmember Gregory? Thank you, Mayor. When we first heard about what the project might cost from Woodrow, Audra, all the way out to the east, it sounded like that we would not have enough money to do the entire project. So I'm surprised to see that we're being asked to have a contract with the engineer to design the entire project. Does that mean that we have new estimates or that we have found some other sources of funding to do the entire project? No, you're absolutely right. Our estimate is that we cannot build the entire limits for that amount. The design we're asking for is the 30% design. We are, like you said, you're correct. We are planning to do 30% design throughout the entire project limits. But as part of the design build process, we're going to ask each of the design build teams to give us their best effort to see how much of the roadway could actually be constructed and final designed. But you're correct. We are planning on doing the preliminary design for the entire project limits that we would want. A couple of follow-ups to that. Okay. Oh, and by the way, Mr. Manager, any time your staff people start responding to me by saying you're absolutely right, I don't care what they say. I'm okay. I'm okay with it. You're absolutely right. And that means you don't have your two follow-up questions. No, I do. You're going to be unrecognized. Go ahead. I thought you were serious. No, I'm not. But yeah, go ahead. So what is the priority section that would be built first if we indeed don't have enough money to do the whole thing? What I've heard talk about is from Loop 288 East. We're going to try to focus on that, and then we would extend west as much as possible. Okay. And the other thing is that I'm concerned about if those engineering plans are too old before we do the rest of the project that they would no longer be suitable. How long when we do that 30% design, how long can we count on those being fresh enough to use when we go to the next part of the project? It's hard for me to estimate that. I would say not really longer than five years. Go ahead, Todd. Come on up. Sorry. Todd Estes, City Engineer. When we go to the 30% design phase on any project, what we 're looking for is a better estimate and clarification of the initial scope of the project. So when I get to 30%, I'm looking for what are the big issues that we really have to contend with throughout the life of the project. And in the design-build process or any time that I'm going through this project, any project where I may be doing partial design and holding it out long -term, maybe pulling it off the shelf so to speak, five years down the road, I've gone through and defined where all the hard spots are on the project that when I go to 60%, which we really technically call a technical set of plans, that's what they're going to work towards. And then beyond 60, I'm going to actual construction. So the 30% should last a good long time unless there's something that appreciably changes in the area. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor. Councilmember Briggs. I have a few things. First, I just want to say thank you very much. I'm really excited to see this project here and that we're voting on. It's been a long time coming for the community in that area and the students. So back to the timeframe, because I had heard, I guess a couple years ago when I got on, that TextDOT was already looking to expand McKinney and had done some work to do that. There was just some communication issues. And so here on special services, as far as all these surveys, investigations, and studies, is there anything within that timeframe that TextDOT has done that we could get from them on that to? So we've received the TextDOT plans. They were done back in 2011. They spent a lot of time and money working on those, but we don't really feel like they apply today. They have not been able to give us any of this background data or survey or anything like that that's current or environmental investigations. They gave us a set of 11 by 17 plans that honestly we can't use and they're old. They decided they weren't going to be able to finalize the project and continue. The city and TextDOT coordinated the swap. We now have the road. They gave us all their money left in their project budget and basically that's what we have to use to do the best that we can. And so on that, are there time restrictions that we need to use that money? I think I heard you mention earlier. Yes I did. Talk about a deadline. You're absolutely right. That doesn't work with me. I'm sorry. Yes. We have a deadline to begin construction and that's what we 're going to do. We're going to move forward that sidewalk part of the project that's so important to the city of Denton and to the residents from Loop 288 to Billy Ryan High School. We're going to be able to start construction on that before the end of year fiscal year 2017 and 2018. That's the deadline we have from NETCOG. We have to start spending construction money before the end of September next year. Next year. Okay. And so that in the estimated project schedule, the sidewalk s would fit in between the row and the procure like kind of in that area? Yes. So we're going to start on that, make that a special project and begin that first. Okay. Thank you. That's a high priority associated with this project. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Any other questions for staff? We have a card we should speak. Mr. Wille Husbeth is going to speak on this item. Agenda item 6A. Good morning, Council. My name is Wille Husbeth. I live at 623 Newton. The time frame is frightening. You're not even going to start on the project until 2018. One more kid being killed or seriously injured will probably do you in. Which kid do you want to pick to go through something like that? I'm stating it that way for you to think a minute. A kid that you could do something to keep him or her from being hurt. Here's a solution. Put some dirt on the ground for right now. Put something on the ground so that they can move away from the street. I have a Bible study every Thursday morning at Jack in the Box. It's called Church at Jack. I see those kids, the ones that you just want to shake them . They're so darn hard-headed and so irresponsible. They just drive you up the wall. But they're out there. They cut right across that parking lot, Jack in the Box, and go to that intersection. And we've told them several times to stop doing that. They still do it. They're the ones that come late. You provided buses. You tried to do everything. Here's a solution. Before you start moving dirt, put some dirt out there away from that street. Fire some crossing guards. You don't have to pay them much during the time when they 're going in the morning and when they're coming in from school in the evenings. And I know you're thinking, "Why are those kids in high school? Shouldn't they be responsible?" Yes, but they're not. How much would it cost to just put some crossing guards? By God, I think I'll put on my bike riding vest and go out there and do it myself. Just tell those kids, "You just do this. This is what you do. This means don't go in Jack in the Box. Come this way to the dirt." When you start building this project, if it's anything like university, you're going to have heck to pay. All that dirt and all that big equipment, here's what I suggest you do. Make a path way away from the street and the construction with dirt, and that's what those kids can use to go to school and no one will get hurt. Crossing guards and move it away from the highway. That's the simple things you can do and I don't... Thank you, sir. Council Member Gary. I was going to move for approval. Are we on motion, sir? Well, we've got... Can I say one more thing or am I... No, you're fine. Let me go ahead and take this question first. Council Member Briggs. Right. Well, I was just going to ask staff to respond to Mr. Huts mith with an update. Yes. Mr. Hutsmith has excellent suggestions and we've heard this from council so many times. I should have gone into more detail about this during my presentation and I apologize I did not. I know you all are all concerned about the sidewalk. I mentioned the final concrete sidewalk that's associated with this project, but we are going to do as directed by council exactly what Mr. Hutsmith said . We're going to design and build as part of a separate contract a temporary path from Loop 288 to Billy Ryan High School. We're going to be bringing that to council in November and I'm sorry I didn't mention that as part of my presentation earlier. No, you're good. I appreciate you updating us on that. Okay. Any other questions? Thank you very much for that update. That's helpful. Council, Mayor Pro Tem. Okay, so I'll move for approval of this item. Okay. Council Member Briggs. I will second. Got a motion and a second. Let's vote on the board please. Six A passes unanimously. Six B considered option of an ordinance accepting competitive bids and awarding a public works contract for concrete repair and installation services. Thank you. Good evening Mayor and Council Members. I'm Galen Gillum, the Capital Projects Director. And so when we want to go build a sidewalk, one of the ways we get that done is by use of this contract with this company called Floyd Smith. So I'm very happy and excited to be here. I thought I would tell you that in case you couldn't tell, but I am. And the reason for that is that this is an exceptional provider of service for the city. They've been working for us for over 30 years. And when I go around and talk to folks that have used this service from this concrete company, I hear words like exceeds expectations, excellent, goes beyond what we need them to do, and they're wonderful to work with. So I'm very happy to be here and to present this opportunity for you to approve this contract. Competitive bids were requested back in the August/Sept ember timeframe and received for a public works contract that will provide concrete repair and installation services for various city departments for fiscal years 2018 through 2021. Some of the services examples are right here, concrete pavement, curbs, gutters, sidewalks, ADA ramps, and valley gutters. Here are the bids, the actual bids that were received. You can see the low bidder was Floyd Smith Concrete. They've been the city's concrete provider for a long period of time. And whenever I see a low bidder that's also been providing excellent service, that makes us very happy because we don't always get that from low bid ders. Sometimes we have to work very hard to get good service from low bidders. Not the case here. These guys are excellent. Here's the way, this is typical of the last several years. This is the fiscal year 2017 representative, how the concrete contract was used. You can see obviously the streets department uses the bulk of the contract. Engineering's the second largest amount and then on down the line are some smaller uses of the concrete. So the city has one major contract and the different departments for the city can use the contract. Here's the historical spend over the last several fiscal years. You see we're kind of ramping up from 2014 to 2015 using a little bit more and a little bit more and then 2017 with a greater push to do a lot more capital projects, ramping up even more. Here's some examples of how we'll be spending the money in the future through the contract. Hickory Street, Oak Park, Oak Tree, Shadow Trail, Scripture , doing things like sidewalk repairs, ADA ramps, curbs and gutters, concrete panels, et cetera. Some of the other departments use the concrete for utility cuts, piers for traffic signals, walking lots, sidewalks, et cetera. So staff recommends you approve an ordinance accepting competitive bids and awarding the contract to Floyd Smith Concrete in the four year not to exceed amount of $21,976,261.84. All right. Thank you. Council Member Briggs. So a few months back, maybe even a year now, time's going by so fast, there was a, I guess there were projects were behind on sidewalks. I think they were around eight months or so and it was, we were using one, I guess, company and there was an idea to maybe divide the work into two. Is this on sidewalks or am I getting this mixed up with something else? We did that for asphalt, for road projects, but we're not doing it for concrete. Okay. So sidewalks, I believe, have we had our contract with Floyd Smith for a long time? We have for over 30 years. Over 30 years. We've been working with Floyd Smith. So we have an excellent track record with them and I can't speak highly enough about them. Okay. And so are they up to date on their projects or are they still behind schedule? Do you know? On their project, they're up to date with what we need them to do. I don't know the sidewalks project. I don't know if Mark Nelson's here to talk about sidewalks any. Sorry, Mark. It is part of the way we spend with Floyd Smith is to do sidewalks. Council Member, I don't necessarily have a specific answer to the schedule on that, but what I can tell you is part of the reason that Floyd Smith was behind on some of that is the challenge of actually getting concrete. They've corrected part of that by getting their own fleet of concrete trucks, but they now can get these small batch of materials that they need to do the sidewalks. So where we stand with our sidewalks, as we stated with the Mobility Committee last week, we are moving forward with re-racking the schedules on those and moving them forward in a more expeditious manner. So you're saying the issues that we had in the past have been corrected and that... To my understanding... Okay. Sometimes it's funding, too. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions for staff? Seeing none. A card of Wishing to Speak, Mr. Willie Husband. Agenda item 6B. My name is Willie Husband. I serve at 623 Newton. I've known Floyd and Floyd Smith for as many years as he's been doing concrete. I knew him before he even started doing concrete. I knew him before he even started doing the work and the amount of work that he's doing now, way before then. I think the statements are correct. He's the real deal. He's had him do some work at my property and he was then and still is now. A handshake, meaning that we have a deal, and then he stuck to it. My concrete, it cracked and concrete always cracks. He didn't hesitate, came out and redid it. So I think that's an excellent choice and I'm glad that you have him with those projects. Thank you, sir. Council Member Gregory. Thank you, Mayor. I move approval of item 6B. Mayor Pro Tem. Second. We have a motion and a second. Let's vote on the board, please. Passes unanimously. Item 6C, considered adoption of an ordinance accepting competitive bids and warning public works contract for construction of phase two water and san itary sewer improvements. Good evening, Council Members and Mayor Watts. This absolutely will be a brief presentation. I know you all have had a long day. So just a brief presentation, like I said, to supplement the information that was provided in your AIS documents regarding IFB 6503, the Dent Energy Center phase two water and sewer improvements. So a slide here, overview or outlining my presentation. I'll just try to get into it so we can move this along. The public improvement requirements for the Dent Energy Center in regards to water and wastewater. The plant basically needs three types of connections to city infrastructure. The first, fire water supply. The second is raw water supply. And the third is a connection to the sanitary sewer. So I'll start with the most exciting of the three, and that would be the fire water supply. During the design phase of the Dent Energy Center, a couple of options were evaluated. One would be an on-site solution, and that would be a large diesel-fired fire pump on-site with a large fire water storage tank, and the essence of it would be the fire alarm would start the fire pump, the fire pump would pressurize the system using the water in the tank. The limit to this is your firefighting capabilities are limited to the quantity of water that you can store on-site. The second option, and the option that was selected, was to connect the fire system of the plant to the city water system. This would ultimately give you a much larger volume of water in case of a fire emergency. So one contingency with that is that you need a looped system. By that I mean you need basically two sources of water to the plant. So the tap would be started at one city main, the line would flow through the property, the plant would tap into that line, and the line would continue on to another source. And what this would do, would give you much like our electrical system, is if there was something on the north side of the loop, some maintenance, for some reason there was a lack of water, you would have a water source from the other half , and vice versa. And this also, in selecting this method, it also eliminates the need for the large diesel-fired fuel pump on-site, and that eliminates the emission, the total emissions of the plant. The second item is the plant raw water, and simply that's just the potable water supply for the plant. So it's the daily water consumed by the employees, wash- down water in the engine halls, and the cooling water for the engines. And the third, and least glamorous, would be the wastewater connection for the plant to the city's sanitary sewer service. So a little background of why there's a phase one and phase two. The vertical construction of the Dent Energy Center building, the schedule was it needed to start on May 1st, 2017 of this year. And for that to happen, they had to have the fire water system at the plant, had to be installed, it had to be pressurized, and had to be tested. So we had to find a way to get city water to the site. The overall loop for the system is going to end up being about three miles long. So to determine that we didn't have enough time to get the system engineered, get it procured, and get it constructed, there was no way we'd be able to meet that deadline on the plant. So the project was divided into two phases. Phase one was the shorter and less complex of the two. It was brought before the council, and it was awarded to Wilson Contractors of Dent, Texas. Construction, they sloshed through the spring, and they did a good job, and they got the project completed in early May. And a vertical construction of the Dent Energy Center comm enced on schedule. So here's probably the easiest way to put all this together is to kind of orient yourself. We have Jim Crystal Road here to the north, a Mosh Branch Road here to the east, running north and south. This area here is the Dent Energy Center track, and over in the southeast corner you'll see the Dent and Enterprise Airport. Phase one, as I mentioned, is completed. It taps into a water main right off Tomco Road, right where it goes into the airport property. The line follows the south property line and comes to this point here where it's connected to the plant's fire loop. And as you'll see, the plant has two connections to this point. One thing I should mention that we put in place for the phase one, and will also be for phase two, if you see this area here in the black lines , that's the future loop 288. So we sleeved, this water line was placed in a sleeve so that we could accommodate any future construction of that major right of way. And the same thing will happen on the phase two sewer line and the phase two water line. So on to phase two, logically it connects to the end of phase one in this area here, heads north and heads over to the western property line of the track, right to south of Jim Crystal Road. So one thing I need to stop here is when we put this bid out, you'll notice tonight that we're asking to award the alternate bid. The city water department wanted the main bid for this line that extends from our western property line over to the connection point at Moss Branch to be a 20 inch line. So that was the main bid and the alternate bid is a 16 inch line. And as you'll notice, this line extends to the edge of the property line. It'll be capped there and then that'll be there for future use. Any development that could happen further west out Jim Crystal would have a connection point. It's just kind of a standard process that a developer takes their city public works to the property line. So this portion of the project here will be constructed at 16 inches, connecting here right off of Moss Branch. So after this project is complete, our loop will be connected to one main here at Moss Branch. It's about a three miles worth of pipe all the way through phase one down to Tom Cole Road. And the other thing I should mention is the raw water connection is tapped off here down to the plan. It's a two inch line. The second portion of the project is the sanitary sewer. It connects here at the utility vault, flows south before it turns east. And another point here is this section of pipe that extends to the south is for future development of this track or any tracks to the south. That'll be capped and just for future use. But it will be constructed as part of this project. So one note here is you'll notice that we'll cross over into the boundary of the airport. So this took special permission from the FAA. There was a form that had to be submitted in approval, request for approval, and that was granted. So as we cross the north part of the airport's property, there will be restrictions imposed on the construction by the FAA. There's height restrictions. There's hours of operation that can actually work. And they must maintain the stockpiles at a certain height. So we expect this part of the project to take about three weeks that we'll be in the airport property. And the connection is just to the east of the airport. So the summary of the bids, the purchasing method that was used for this project was an invitation for bid. Ten bids were received and publicly opened. The bids ranged from about a little over $1.9 million to a little over $4 million. The average bid was about $2.7 million. That was for all ten bids. And if you'll notice, this came in about $500,000 under our engineers' estimate. The low bid was submitted by Quality Excavation of Aubrey, Texas, at an amount of $1,925,345, and I left off the 90 cents there. Their bid was determined to meet all minimum qualifications . The estimates were, not the estimates, the references were verified. And for further note, the engineer of record has had prior positive project experience with quality excavation. So staff's recommendation is to award the contract to quality excavation. Through this slide in here, just to kind of qualify that alternate, that we're going with the alternate bid, it was a lot, if you look in your backup , it was a long list. This is actually what the services will be covered on this scope. So this sums up this part of the presentation. It's the last major single purchase for the Denton Energy Center that's not under contract. We have another slide for some other items. We wanted to give you a heads up for other items that pert ain to the Denton Energy Center that'll come before the PUB and the city council for approval. Some civil IT, engine fluids, and any potential change orders that might be required to complete this project. And the last note is Hurricane Harvey. We kind of weathered Hurricane Harvey. We got it back on schedule. So we're on schedule and we're under budget. So with that good news, I'd like to ask any questions. >> You bet. Councilmember Briggs. >> You said we mentioned budget. So I am assuming that this is part of the 220, 225 million that was approved for council for this project and this isn't something separate? >> No, ma'am. We always knew about this expense. And this actually, the actual budgeted amount in the project was 3.75 million. So that was our estimate a year ago. So we're coming in about 1.8 million under that. >> So I have a question about the water. Will there be any chemical runoff from the plant going into our sewer system? Any chemicals or ammonia or anything that we need to be aware of? >> No, ma'am. The ammonia is injected in the exhaust. So the water that's being used, the engines are water cooled just like your car is. So that is not tied into the sanitary sewer system. So there is an oil water separator like plants have and that is tied in there. But that water is, that is separated on site and that discharge does go to the sanitary sewer. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. Any other questions? Mr. Willis-Hesbeth, 6C? No? All right. Thank you. I see no more questions for staff. Councilmember Ryan. >> Thank you, mayor. I move approval of item 6C. >> Councilmember Gregory. >> Second. >> Okay. We have a motion to second. Let's vote on the board. Motion carries 5 to 2. All right. Agenda item 6D. Consider approval of a resolution creating a steering committee to consider and advise the City Council on renovation operations for City Hall West. I understand you have an abbreviated version of the presentation. Is that correct? >> Yes, sir. I have about a 20 minute short presentation. >> Okay. Well, we're going to move you to the end. >> Mayor, members of council, I'll make this fairly short. This particular item for your consideration is a resolution establishing a steering committee that would essentially have three council members and 21 citizens that would be appointed by each council member to that particular steering committee. In your backup, we've suggested trying to move that forward with appointments prior to the holiday lighting festival simply because there's an interest in the downtown area and where this particular facility might fit into that. Certainly that's flexible. Just a recommendation from staff's perspective. And so we have provided the draft resolution in front of you for consideration this evening. >> All right. Any questions for staff? Mr. White-Husbeth, you got a comment card wishing to speak? No? Okay. Thank you, sir. Mayor Pro Tem? >> I move approval of the resolution. >> Councilmember Ryan? >> I'll second. >> We have a motion and a second. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries unanimously. We'll move on now to our public hearings. Just trying to get my cards straightened out on this. Okay. Public hearing 7A. Hold the first two public hearings for voluntary annexation of approximately 73.47 acres of land generally located on Long Road and West FM 428. There's no action on this, is that correct? It's just a presentation? >> Presentation. Public hearing. >> Yep. Thank you. >> Thank you, sir. For the record, I'm Cindy Jackson, senior planner with the planning division. And I'm here tonight to present to you A170005. This is a request for voluntary annexation of approximately 73.47 acres. The site is located on the western side of FM, where is, there it is, there. Western side of FM 428 and north of Long Road across from the athletic center and waterworks. The applicant is proposing to annex the property and develop a single family residential neighborhood. The site meets the annexation criteria as set in section 35 314. Specifically, it will require a connection to city services . It is within the city's certificate of convenience and necessity for water, sewer, and electric. It is located partially within the city limits and the entire site will be located partially in the city limits. And the development will have a significant impact upon the city in terms of services, increased traffic, etc. Here you see the proposed annexation schedule. Tonight is the first public hearing. The second public hearing will be next week. And then the institution of annexation and first reading of the ordinance is scheduled for November 7th, with the final reading on the first meeting in January. The request complies with all minimum requirements for annexation as set forth by the Texas Local Government Code in Chapter 43, subchapter C1. That concludes my presentation. I'll stand for any questions. >> Any questions before we open the public hearing? >> Councilmember Hesbeth. >> I have a question just generally for council. How in the past have we handled or do we handle notices? So it's next to the football stadium there and different events will go on there. It's going to be just across the street. Is there a, do we get involved in that? Do we notice? Do we, because I could see that down the road being an issue potentially. Lights, this, that, or the other. And so I'm just not sure if that's something we handle in advance or just let it play out. >> Well, at this point, that wouldn't be the time to bring that up. Probably the best time to bring that up would be when they request their zoning. >> Yeah, whenever they have rezoning though. Because, and you're talking about mail out notices to surrounding property. Because we do have a notice of a public hearing that's published pursuant to state law. But yeah. >> That answers, well the zoning answers my question. But it's more, hey I bought this house in this neighborhood and somehow I missed the John Stadium across the street. How do we kind of a- >> Sure. >> Sorry. You're next to a stadium that, so anyway, that answers my question. >> Okay, good. Any other questions for staff? This is a public hearing, so I will now open the public hearing. Anybody wishing to speak on agenda item 7A, come down and state your name and address. Anybody wishing to speak on agenda item 7A? Don't see a lot of movement. We'll go ahead and close the public hearing. There's no action taken on this. Agenda item 7B, hold a public hearing, consider adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton. Text us regarding change in zoning classification from neighborhood residential 6. To use classification to neighborhood residential makes use 12, NRMU 12. >> Good evening, Mayor, Council, Richard Canone, Interim Planning Director. The item in front of you this evening is a rezoning request from NR6 to NRMU 12, along with a mixed use residential protection overlay. The property's outlined in yellow, on the east side of Jan ney Street, north of East McKinney. Some of you may recall this was part of a seven acre track that went through rezoning in 2014, changing it from NR4 to the current designation of NR6. And looking at the compatibility analysis as part of the rezoning, within the area, it is surrounded predominantly by single family residential, just about everywhere except to the south where you have that NRMU 2. The Denton Plan 2030, the comprehensive plan has this area designated as low residential. And with that, it's intended for predominantly single family neighborhoods and suburban development single family with limited access to major arterials. The NRMU 12 does not conform to the low density residential requirements. And as a result, staff had recommended denial at the planning and zoning commission. Public notification was sent out. Within 200 feet, there were three in opposition, a total of eight in opposition, two in favor and zero neutral. Again, staff had recommended denial of this request based on the incompatibility resulting from the comprehensive plan. However, PNZ did recommend approval of the item. As I mentioned, the applicant did amend their application right after they submitted with the mixed use overlay. And as a result of that, they had proffered a number of conditions to sort of try to lessen the impact within that residential, buffering those residential neighborhoods. And those are the conditions that planning and zoning commission recommended. >> Okay. >> And I won't read all of them. >> Yeah, we have them in our backup. >> But they're there. One thing that we did wanna add, if y'all were to choose or vote to recommend approval of this item, is to consider maybe limiting the hours of operation for retail service and professional. And just give an approximate to single family residents between the hours of 9 PM and 7 PM. >> Okay, great. Any questions for staff at this point? Seeing none. I thought you hit your request button, Mayor Pro Tem. Okay. We will now open the public hearing. I've got two cards, one from Mr. Allison and one from Mr. Rivera, that both say they're the applicant. But Mr. Allison, on yours, you circled applicants for land use 10 minutes or less per speaker with maximum 20 minutes. So I'm not sure who's the official applicant on this as far as that rule goes. Could you provide some clarity on that? Mr. Allison is. Is that correct? Come on up. Yes. >> Thank you. Sorry for that confusion. >> So are you the one that's going to be the applicant in regards to the rule for the 10 minutes or less per speaker with a maximum of 20 minutes? >> I'll be one of the speakers. It does allow for two speakers and Victor will be another speaker. Of course, each one of us will be under 10 minutes apiece. >> All right. >> And we're here to that rule. >> All right. You bet. >> I need a little help finding my way. Can someone help me with to get to the PowerPoint? I'm going the wrong way on the. Do you need my assistance? What's that? I've got a folder on here on the screen. Right here. That one. >> I'll let you pick. Where's the full screen? I need the full screen icon, I'm sorry. >> That's where, right there. >> Right there. >> On my left. >> Back. >> Okay, didn't look like full screen. >> You just used five minutes and you're 20 minutes. >> First you're on 10. >> State your name and address your time. >> Lee Allison with Allison Engineering Group Denton, Texas . First, I'd like to apologize for the noise we made during the SB4. We were out in the hallway visiting and didn't realize it could be heard in here. And we were quieting down at least twice. So I want to apologize for that, certainly meant no disrespect. We're here regarding this case. With me this evening is Victor Rivera, one of the developers in Lance Holdorf, our project manager. Nathaniel Dodson and Jasmine could not be here. Staff has given you a good idea of the location and the surrounding activities, particularly the courthouse and the Mary Horn Center. There's a jagged line for the zoning division. That, of course, is an obstacle for us. We do have NRMU zoning at the very front, NRMU 12 already in place. We're seeking the NRMU 12 in the very back where the NR6 is today. That shows the place. There's our concept site plan to make one comprehensive uniform site. The big differences between the NR6 and the NRMU 12 zoning besides land uses are that the NRMU 12 would have a little higher density for residential type purposes, such as townhomes or single-family homes. But it also has a larger side yard setback requirement and the buildings would be further away with the NRMU 12 than they would with the current NR6. The lot coverage, landscaping, maximum building height, etc ., are all similar. We had a neighborhood meeting. Some concerns were expressed. And related to that, we came up with some overlay restrictions. They were worried about height. We want non-residential buildings limited to one story and a maximum height of 35 versus 40. We're going to establish mechanical units that are 100 feet of the property would be residential style units in between the buildings, not at the back and screened. Landscaping screening of the mechanical units. There'll be a screening wall around the property and we limit the allowable uses. The primary ones we struck from the ordinance were dwelling above businesses, group homes, multi-family dwellings, fraternity or sorority homes, dorm itories, bed, breakfast, laundry, semi-public, kindergarten, elementary, middle, and elderly housing. One of the commissioners made a comment about why are we doing this? Why are we putting in such extensive restrictions? In fact, I think they voted against it because they couldn 't understand why we put so many restrictions on it. One, we do recognize it goes back into a neighborhood and after the neighborhood meeting, we wanted to be considerate of that. Also, with the market the way it is, in the very back, we 're really going to market to town homes and garden offices. No one would truly want to put a retail type business that far back away from McKinney Street. The commission also expressed concerns about the area transitioning. Why would this, you know, this would help others want to creep in and start doing other transitions. We don't believe that's particularly the case, but it will help, pardon me. With the improvements to Janie Street, our buildings will be facing inward, not out towards any of the houses. The houses on the north and the east will have their back yards against us. We'll be putting street trees for the city ordinances. There'll be staggered activities with offices. They'll typically have daytime Monday through Friday and some Saturday operations. Homeowners are typically around weekends and the evenings. Some are there during the day. And we think it'll encourage residential upgrade to build new homes in an older community, especially one that's, pardon me, not being fixed up heavily. People aren't going to put as much money into the new homes , whereas they'll put more money into the office garden type facilities and we think encourage improvement in the area. We received the comment forms or got copies of them from the city. There was a variety of items mentioned on those who were opposed. I don't think any one item was mentioned more than twice. One was concerned about population density and growth. Well, that's going to happen anyway. This is basically a vacant lot that's going to be infilled with some kind of development. One person put no reason. They were just against it, so we put no response. Somebody else said they didn't want to sell. We're not buying. In all honesty, without visiting with that person, it may feel compelled to sell and move out of there. That might have been what their comment was really about. I'm not going to try and disguise what they may or may not have been saying. Others concerned about the character of the neighborhood. Well, it's already 60% zoned NRMU and NRMU 12. The whole thing is zoned NR and that's why we have the neighborhood residential zoning classification is to have that mixture of uses. They wanted a positive impact. That's why we put the restricted or the very limited uses. We restricted apartments. One commissioner thought that apartments would be good there, but one person doesn't want them. Crime when the area is developed instead of a big vacant lot, we think that will help. Many values with the new street, compatible buildings and higher construction values, we think that will help. The neighborhood may be encouraged, the neighborhood to take care of their properties as well or feel good about taking care of them, which most people do anyway. Worrying about expanding commercial outside of our boundaries, again with the zoning process, that's not as easy. They wanted sidewalks, but those are required in our developments. All that will be provided. When we look at similar zoning intrusions, you can see our site in this location, which you can see over here. We've got NRMU 12 going back into neighborhoods with similar conditions. Another NRMU 12 over here. I'm sorry, NRMU and NRMU 12 here. NRMU is even more dense than NRMU 12. Here's another location around town where you see NRMU and NRMU 12 in the midst of neighborhoods. Here's another example of NRMU 12 surrounded by neighborhoods throughout the city, in large portions of it. Here's a place where we have garden homes adjacent to, or garden offices adjacent to residential facilities. This is on Carroll Boulevard. That would be Iove Cemetery down here, apartments here. Garden style offices here have been there for a number of years and residences in this location. Another place on University behind Bank One, I believe it's Bank One, there's some garden offices back here adjacent to this neighborhood community. You can see their street view. Then, pardon me, again on Lillian Miller, the garden offices along there that back up to the Southridge home community. There's quite a few in town. I'm just giving a few examples. I'd be glad to respond to any questions at this time or ask Victor if he's ready to come up and make some additional comments whenever is appropriate. Council Member Brinks. Hi, Mr. Allison. You mentioned that there were some, you showed a map, a zoning map, and showed intrusions that had already occurred. Do you know if those were approved after the 2030 plan? It was approved? I mean, do you? Are you just saying that? I have no idea. We just researched the map to see what's out there. Okay. I don't know about overlay restrictions or anything like that. Okay. Thank you. Council Member Gregory. Thank you, Mayor. When I look at the restrictions that are in the overlay, I do not see any kind of guarantee or a way of writing a restriction that says that these will be garden style offices so that offices that are built to look more like residential dwellings. So is that not in there for a reason? Is there a way to put that in there? Because you're selling it as being garden offices, but there's nothing in here that gives me the assurance that that's what there's going to be . Sure. We looked at it from what's the allowable uses of professional offices. Right. And because of the size limitations, et cetera, it pretty much defaults to garden homes. If we need garden style office architecture, if we need to add some language to that effect, I think we can. We've got a rendering here to give an idea of what's being planned back there. So to add some language to that effect, I don't think would be a problem. Do you have any renderings of what the - that would be facing on the inside, correct? Yes. So what would the backside that might be backing up to some neighbor's yards or on Janie Street, what would they be seeing? Don't have any renderings to that effect. On Janie Street would be seeing the sides of these buildings, not the back. And the backyards would be the backside of these buildings. They wouldn't be as fancy as this as far as the breakup of facade, but they would be similar as far as the roof pitches and brick and stone. And the roof pitches are limited to 35 feet? Not a little roof pitch. The roof pitch could be anywhere from a 4'12" to a 6'12" or an 8'12", but the height we have reduced it from 40 feet to 35 feet and one story. Okay. Thank you. Council Member Hudspeth. So in your presentation, you mentioned a wall, screen wall. Is that - am I right? Yes. So what is that going to look like? Where is that going to - is that all the way around the property? Were you suggesting that be located? Certainly we're going to comply with the code and that wall would basically be along this side and this side and over here. This is the area that's being zoned, the green area this evening. So along the north and east sides. Thank you. So question, when you say comply with the code, I'm not sure what Council Member Hudspeth had in mind when he was talking about a screening wall. Now when I think of a wall, I think of a wall. But when you say comply with the code, really you've got - I think there are buffer requirements, different types of buffers. Or am I off on that? There are buffer requirements. This particular one will require an opaque wall 6 feet tall . Okay, like a fence. Yes. And there will be some buffering in between there. Basically you'll put a fence up, 6 foot fence. Yes. Okay. Any other questions for - I do - I struggle with this, I'm going to be honest with you, because it goes so deep into the neighborhood. And I remember I was on Council when we approved the current zoning on this. And there was a lot of effort to sell us on the higher density residential with the look. And some of the examples that you showed on offices next to residential, they were sort of more what they're used for, and that is sort of a transition. Like the ones behind the Chase Bank. Right. They're - I mean, there's - the only residential is behind them. You know, it's not on either side or like this one is. And you talked about town homes. You talked about either garden home - garden offices or town homes. Is that - because that's really - you're wanting to increase the density even for residential. Is that my understanding? Is that part of the plan? Well, by going from NR6 to NR12, it does that. NR6 does not allow multifamily even with an SUP, but it does allow town homes, but it'd be a lower density. Whereas in our MU12 also allows town homes, but obviously a higher density at 12 per acre. There's roughly three acres back there, so 36. And again, we still have to have the 40 percent landscaping overall. Sure. Okay. All right. Any other questions for Mr. Allison? Yes, Councilmember Gregory. So there may be residential dwelling in this property. There's that potential. A lot of that depends on the market. They're obviously going to start developing from the front towards the back, but with an NRMU12, that gives them the option for some garden style offices or some town homes. NRMU12 - well, we've stricken multifamily even though it's allowed with an SUP in NRMU12. So for clarification, the green part NRMU12, that is - how many acres is that? Three or six? Well over three. Three. Okay. So that's three. And that's what's NR6 currently? Yes. And so the NRMU12, which says site, whatever that color is, yellow, that's - how many acres is that? That's going to be just under three. All right. And it's currently zoned what? NRMU12. So you're just looking at the back part? Yes. Okay. I saw something up there I thought I saw six acres, but it might have been the NR6. I think the whole site's closer to six acres. Okay. Any other questions for Mr. Allison? Okay. Thanks. Appreciate it. All right. Thank you. And then Mr. Rivera, come on down. State your name and address and your time will begin. Good evening, Mayor, Council Members. Victor Rivera, address for my business is 109 South Woodrow , Denton, Texas. Personal address is Argyle, Texas. I am one of the developers. This has been a brainchild of mine for many years. I have worked in Denton for nine years now. I'm an attorney and I've had an office somewhere in Denton all these nine years. And this piece of property has been sitting here for that nine year period. I've seen other plans come across of people wanting to develop this property. And as an attorney, I said this has so much potential not only for the community, but also for attorneys. Right across the street, CMG, what you're looking at is the courthouse. The courthouse, which is staffed by lots of attorneys, staff members, sheriff, jailers, etc., right behind us in the jail. We have nothing there that maximizes that potential. We as attorneys struggle for space around the courthouse. The NRMU that is to my left, that is Roger Yale's property, which butts up against the residential area right there. And that's what we're looking at doing, except we're expanding it back. We're going from large to smaller in the back. We are asking for that three acres to be recategorized so that we could actually maximize our ability in the future. We're gonna break this down into three portions, start in the front, work our way back. But to leave it the way it is, it kinda limits what we're gonna be able to do back there in regards to whether it's the garden offices. Again, it's gonna be based upon demand. What is the community gonna be needing back there? Is it going to be the town of homes? Would that be more beneficial? The NRMU 12 gives us that flexibility. And when you look at the zoning code, if you look at subch apter 5, you'll see that the two, NRMU 6 and NRMU 12 are not very different at all. And we have made accommodations in our planning to eliminate possibilities of getting the wrong people in there that may affect the residents. And that's why you'll have that list, if you look at the list, of things will strike out. That's the overlay part, is we can sit there and say, we will not allow these things, because we're not trying to make this an interruption into the community that already exists there. If you've ever taken a stroll down that neighborhood, you have Janey to the west. That's gonna be an improvement on this project in and of itself, which is gonna benefit the residents. As Mr. Allison said, lack of sidewalk, which we'll be adding. It's a street that even the fire department has wanted for years for those trees that are in the middle of the street to be barricaded and done something and widen the street. Those are all things that are gonna be part of the plan. And so we are taking consideration of the residents when we 're looking at this entire plan front to back. And if you look at some of the returns that they got, the few objections to please do not change it. You'll see that those few objections to were by the same person who doesn't even live there. He's an investor. He owns two of the properties back there. Another one of the objections was also another investor that doesn't even live back there. From what our perception was, was we had a good feel in regards to this is not going to interfere with the neighborhood residents. And we are trying our best to accommodate by making those restrictions upon ourselves in the development of that area . And we're just asking you to switch it so that it gives us more potential in the future with regards to what we can do . But still under those strict limitations that we've listed out there. With regards to the project itself, the project it benefits , again, attorneys that work there, ideas that we have were to be using the land for is besides offices at the very front going all the way back , but we're talking about sit down eateries. We're talking about a coffee shop. We're talking about people in the community have asked for a drop in daycare. So when they have to go to the courthouse across the street , there is no daycare around there. Kids are not supposed to be in the courthouse and they're stuck bringing them to the courthouse. These are all things that are going to be in this entire project front to back. Now, that is why we're so adamant that we'll do what we need to. We're trying to work the best with the neighborhood and we 're not trying to destroy what's presently there. We believe that'll benefit to everyone. It'll benefit those people that live there as well. And we're just asking for that one modification. >> Okay. All right, and I count, I may pretend. >> Hi Vic, it's good to see you. >> Good to see you. >> NMRU allows general office. Would that include bail bondsman? >> With regards to the front, yes. >> The back part, the part that you're wanting. >> The back, essentially yes. It could be a bail bondsman now with regards to whether a bail bondsman would want to be that far back. I doubt it, because as we know around the courthouse, they 're all sitting on the actual McKinney or Woodrow, anywhere close to what can be seen from the courth ouse. So I couldn't say no, a bail bondsman can't get a piece of property on the way in the very back, but. >> So I guess I'm confused about the green lot, because it seems like there might be some plans for town homes, but also it could end up being single story general office. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> And so the back, what we were hoping for is to create the most amount of possible space for offices, whether it's an office for an attorney, an office for counselors, an office for things that are associated with the courthouse, which is right across the street, because we lack that around the courthouse. And so, knowing from people like Ron Cutting, for instance, who is inside of one of the buildings where I used to be in , and that building has been bought out by Denton County. Well, everyone's scrambling for where do we go now? Now, the very front of the property, that very first building that's going to be created, it's going to be our building. It's going to be our office. We're going to be in there, because right now we're having to rent. We lost our space that we were trying to purchase, because the county's going to use it for the district attorney's office. And so, that's what the struggle is, is we're landlocked around the courthouse, and how can we capitalize on that land? And so, when we're in phase three of what we're trying to change to NRMU 12, that's when we'll have to analyze, is it, do we have enough office space? Are we done office space? Or is it going to be needing to be town homes back there, again, within the limitations of that area? Or is it going to be necessary to make those garden offices ? >> So I guess my question is, why bring it now if the idea is to phase the project? >> We have been instructed by Planning and Zoning that we need to structure the entire piece of property. And so, we can't break it into parts. And so, when we've gone through the Planning and Zoning meetings, they have basically said we need an entire plan, and so we may build it in sections. But it has to be set up in sections, because down the line, you can't just in the middle say, now we need to change the zone, it needs to be done before we break ground. >> Okay, that's helpful, thank you. >> Councilmember Briggs. >> Hello, I appreciate your sensitivities to the neighborhood and the overlay and restrictions are great. But for me, the project still seems incompatible with the neighborhood. Not necessarily the front part, but just that back part, I guess stage three or. So if for some reason, I don't know what my fellow council members are thinking, but if for some reason this rezone doesn't pass, do you have another option or plan B for this area? >> Well, officially, we'd have to go back with Mr. Allison and look at it. Even one person said, well, we could just leave it as an empty lot. And I think that would be a waste of valuable property that 's sitting there. Someone mentioned, well, can't you make affordable housing? That's an oxymoron. Even in today's day and age, to make any type of housing, the housing costs are tremendous. And so if we were to just use that space to make housing loan, those have higher costs. And so these are the things we're trying to project now is what direction are we going based upon the permissions that we are given. >> So you're saying that back in that the back part may building smaller, affordable houses, single family homes isn't feasible for the project? >> Well, they have higher costs. >> Higher cost, right. >> Right. >> Okay. >> And so the cost of the entire project as it is is up there. >> Yeah, okay, thank you. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Did I miss something back there? Okay. On the, I'm sorry, Mary Portem. >> Sorry, I have a staff question. So if you have a question for Vic, then I'll just wait. >> So is the 35 foot height, is that for anything that's built on that piece of property? >> On that factory, yes. >> Town home or anything? But a town home to get 35 feet is going to be two story? >> Most likely. >> Pardon me, the way the restriction is worded is any kind of retail commercial type building could have that restriction to 35 feet. No, wait, all buildings are 35 feet, but only commercial retail are limited to one story. Residential could be two story. >> Okay. >> But the 35 foot limit was put there for both. >> Okay, all right, okay. >> Apologize. >> Yes, okay, any other questions for Mr. Rivera? >> I would like to make a quick clarification. >> Yes. >> Any other areas or restaurants were mentioned? They're only allowed in the NRMU, that'll be up at the front, so. >> Okay, all right. >> We'll go further back. >> You had a question for staff? >> Can you kind of explain to me the logic of planning for the whole lot, even though it's a phased project? And is this all one plat, is that why? >> I'm going to have Julie answer it, but I do know they have filed for preliminary plat. I'm not quite sure exactly what, other than the preliminary plat, that the entire site would have to be preliminary plated. And then as the lots would be developed, they could be final plat in a phased program, but the preliminary plat would have to encompass the whole tract. Does that sound right? >> Well. >> But that's separate and apart from zoning. >> Go ahead. >> No, that was my question. I was trying to figure out why, yeah, okay. >> So what I've heard you just say was in response to Mayor Pro Tem's question about the phasing. Why are we asking for the rezoning now? What I heard you say is they can plat it, preliminary plat it, but the zoning for this, I mean, and I assume they're going to plat it into different lots. >> Yes, sir. >> All right. So the zoning could come at any time after the platting or before, I mean, it's not, the zoning doesn't have to come all at once at preliminary platting time, I guess, is what I'm saying. >> Right. >> Is that, go ahead. >> Any preliminary plat or any plat would have to, any proposed lots would have to meet the dimensional requirements of the current zoning. So they would have to, any proposed plat would have to conform to what's currently on the ground. Now, so if that plat could change if the zoning changed, so they may have to come back and replat. Did that make sense? >> Yeah, what I'm hearing is that if there was a desire on this council's part to say, hey, you know, we don't have a problem with development NRMU, NRMU 12, but that back part based upon the phasing of it, in other words, if there's this need as you go forward that if we don't rezone this right now, that doesn't kill either the platting or replatting or the project. >> No, sir. >> Okay. >> They can still plat in accordance with the current zoning. >> Okay. All right. >> Okay. >> May I elaborate briefly? >> Sure. >> Thank you. Apologize. We have to preliminary plat the entire site now. We will come back and final plat the NRMU and the NRMU 12 as it exists today. However, for planning purposes, infrastructure, traffic, water and sewer, we need to know as soon as possible what we can do with that back part so we can plan the front part appropriately and have it all come together and have a responsible and proper plan for the entire site versus a patchwork quilt. >> You mean as far as from an engineering perspective? >> Engineering, primarily engineering and some land planning, yes. >> Okay. Because I mean it's probably pretty easy to figure out, you know, whatever the zoning is, how many buildings you can get on there, how many units, what kind of water lines you're going to require, what kind of sewer lines you're going to require. >> What the lot sizes need to be, how they will be spread out, et cetera. All that is tied to the zoning. So that helps us to plan, truly plan the entire site. >> Sure. >> Okay. All right. Okay. Any other questions? Probably still have time. Any more comments from you guys? Okay. All right. We do have a card and then this is a public hearing so anybody wishing to speak will be able to speak. Greg Price, if you'll come down and state your name and address, your time will begin. >> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Greg Price, 2216 Great Bear Lane. One of the things that I wanted to point out, you can put something right here, correct? Can you all see it? >> Yes. If you'll put it on the little, the X, yeah, right there and then they'll have the overhead. Yep. There we go. >> No, I can't see it. >> Oh, it's up on the screen. >> That's a good point. It's pretty blurry. I apologize for that. I will say this, that there are 25 homes that surround the seven acres. This is the actual site. This is from DCAD. There are 25 homes that back up to this particular property that goes all the way around. Of the homes that will back up to the NRMU 12, there's only 11. Okay? The distance from here to back here is 759 feet. Okay? And the point that I'm trying to make is we're talking about 11 homes that will back up to potential commercial use. Does that make sense? >> Yes. >> Okay. If you look at other locations within the city, here's a self-storage unit that's right along Teasley and Robinson Road. There are 24 homes that will back up to a commercial use right there. The distance from this point to this point is 633 feet, an additional 560 feet. Okay? Right next to this particular site is the Jim and Mary Horne tax building. There are 17 homes that will back up to that commercial use . >> And in your examples, if you're just going off of the actual number of homes that are adjacent to a commercial use, I get that. But if you look at your examples, they're all sort of, most of them are on a major arterial like the Jim and Mary Horne. >> Sure. >> It's on McKinney. The other one was on the corner of Teasley and Robinson. It was a major commercial corner. I forgot what the first one was, and I don't know what this one is here. What's this one? >> This is the Kroger that sits right on Teasley up front. But there are 36 homes that go and back right up to, again, another commercial use. So my point is that we have many homes that back up to commercial use. And what we're talking about is 11 homes with the current N RA MU-12 that would back up to this particular use. The point that I'm trying to make is that if you look up the NRA MU-12, there are also homes that back up to the very front part of that. I just don't, my question, I guess, that I don't understand is why is it okay for some of these homes to back up to commercial use, but these 11 cannot, if that makes sense. >> It does. >> Okay. >> I mean, the question, I can understand why you would ask that question. >> Right. >> Yep. >> Okay. The other thing that makes sense too is that I don't know how many people are going to buy a brand new home right back here in the middle of these three acres at the cost it would take to build a brand new home way back in this particular location. The cost of that home is going to be pretty high with brand new construction. So what makes sense is giving the applicant an opportunity to build an office should there be a demand for office. What this county will do and grow over the course of the next 30 years and the number of people that will be frequently, frequenting the courthouse whether it be jurors or court cases of any kind, they're going to need services and I think that this is an outstanding opportunity to create services for that community such as Justice Plaza . So I do think that this whole area needs improvement. I think there's going to be a lot of eyes in it in Texas. If this is where our county is going to be with the number of people that will be coming to the courthouse. So I think that would be important. >> Could you put the aerial back up that you first put up the? Okay. So Janey is where? Right there. So nothing-- so the property borders Janey on the east side . Is that right? >> That's-- this is the west side but yes. >> Yes, the east side. >> This is the east side of Janey. >> Yes. So is there going to be an-- is there a-- and this may be a question for staff. Let's say the NRMU 12 I think is what you're asking for. Let's say that passes. As far as an ingress or egress off of Janey into that back three acres, is that just all part of platting or when does that get-- and is it okay if he answers that question or you want to wait until-- okay. Yeah. And then we'll give you some time if-- >> That would be done at time of platting. We would look at the-- >> At the preliminary plat or final plat? >> Preliminary plat as far as access in and out of the site . >> Okay. Not withstanding whether it's NR6 or NRMU 12. >> Correct. >> Okay. All right. Okay. Good. Yep. >> The only last thing we say was that an office use is not intrusive use. If you were to put 18-- at NRMU 6 or NR6 which is the current zoning, you can put six units per acre. You could add 18 homes to that area thus increasing the density of that particular neighborhood. When an office goes in there, you go to your office in the morning and you go home in the afternoon. People come home in the afternoon with their-- from their businesses. And my point is that the density actually goes down if you have office versus if you were to add 18 new homes which is what you currently have the ability to do there. >> Okay. But with the option of town homes though, the density would go up. >> That's correct. >> Yeah. So we might want to talk about it. >> In NR6, you don't have the opportunity to put office which is the desire of the applicant. >> Okay. So that might be something that can be discussed is if it's-- if there's another restriction that it's limited to just office because my concern is the town home aspect. Yeah. >> Gotcha. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Okay. I'm just speaking about office. >> Okay. All right. Good. Okay. Any other questions? Oh, Council Member Hudspeth. >> Listening to the discussion and briefly, I think by right, they can go with duplexes which is not optimal. >> NR6, I believe. >> Yes. So I would prefer not duplexes. Well, it kind of works out to be the structurally generally the same in my mind. Anyway, I was just listening to your conversation about that and looking at the comparisons. Thanks. >> Okay. Any other questions, comments? Okay. Thank you. Public hearing, anybody wishing to speak? Come on down. Say your name and address. Your time will begin. >> Good evening, Mayor, members of the council. Thank you for your service. Sorry for my appearance. I had to get out of bed. Come up here. >> That's probably not the thing to tell us right now. >> That was a joke. >> It's 1030. >> Lighten up. >> It's 1030. Yeah. >> I've been there. So my name is Greg Johnson, 2405 Winthrop Hill or 319 West Oak. I just want to add some clarification because some of you were here when this zoning was put into place. And the reason I want to add this clarification is I was here when this zoning was put into place. And Mr. Gene Hartman, who's been in our city for many years , campus barbershop, owned this property. And when this came before the council at the time, I can remember scratching my head saying, why in the world would they ask for three different zonings in a time where our planning department says we don't want any split zoning on parcels? And if you remember, those of you who were here, there was a plan that was shown which had this crazy, round , residential deal in this back three acres. And I think it had like six homes on it and a lot of open green space and all that stuff. And I remember sitting there saying, it'll never happen because the math doesn't work. And that's exactly what happened. The zoning passed, but it's never developed. And the reason it's never developed is math doesn't work. You can't develop three acres of residential and have the math work because the time you meet all those city requirements for utilities and streets and all the things you got to put in, there's not enough money. You can't sell enough lots to recover all that expense. So the property never developed. So Mr. Gene was stuck with-- I mean, frankly, he just got bad advice. He hired the wrong person who sold him an idea, got him to rezone the property, and then they never bought it. And so he was stuck with a zoned property that he agreed to that never sold. And as you probably know, the law building across the street has been bought by the county. All those tenants are getting displaced, some of which have spoken to you tonight. And what they want to do is wake up this property that's been sitting there for all these years. If you go drive Janie Street, you'd be ashamed that that's a city street. It needs to be repaired badly. And so for all the residents who came to the neighborhood meeting, there was nobody who came to the neighborhood meeting that was opposed to this. All they wanted to know was, are you going to fix Janie Street? Well, the developer has to do the repairs to Janie Street in order to do the project. So we get the repairs to a city street, paid for by a private party, turned into office. And I agree, Mayor, you said it right. I mean, this property really juts up into the neighborhood. I think the question for you guys tonight is, what will ever happen with it? And so nobody's going to build town homes back there because the math doesn't work. I mean, you need retail on the front. We need the sandwich shops and the things that we need for the courthouse across the street. The attorneys that are all getting displaced need office space. But what do you do with the back three? Well, you can't do single family. No town home developer is ever going to jump back there hidden in the middle of a neighborhood and build a town home project. Affordable housing is a great topic of discussion and something that we have to tackle. But new construction doesn't create affordable housing. New construction can create affordable housing by things that are no longer occupied because people moved. But at today's construction costs, you can't go build something back here without government subsidies that you can make affordable. So the question is, what do you do with it? And in my mind, office is a great logical use because of what's been said earlier. Office people go home when residents come home. And so now you've got a place kids can ride their bikes in the parking lot or whatever goes on , but there's no activity. And then you build your parking interior. You put buildings up against the fences of the houses. So if there ever are people driving in there with lights, those lights hit the building. They don't make it through the fences into the yards. And so to me, it's a very logical use. And I guess it is an oddly shaped property for the neighborhood to have been built around it the way that it is. But none of us can change that. So the question now is, do we tell them you can build on the front because of some jacked up plan that was shown before that will never happen? Or do we put the property on the tax rolls and let it be used? Single family office isn't going to hurt the neighborhood. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Public hearing, anybody else wishing to speak? Oh, I'm sorry. Council Member Briggs, did you have a question for Mr. Johnson? It may not be just for him, but Bell Bonds was mentioned earlier and you said people go home and businesses close. And I'm not familiar. But do Bell Bonds stay open 24 hours or do they close? All the ones I use are open 24 hours. [LAUGHTER] Council Member Gregory. One of the restrictions-- thank you, Mayor-- recommended by staff if we did the zoning change was they recommended an additional restriction, a condition that restricts nighttime hours for commercial use. So it would mean that if a Bell Bondsman was back there that they couldn't be open for nighttime hours. They'd have to be at the front. I do have a question regarding that. Has the applicants heard-- have you all heard that restriction as presented by staff? And if so, what are your thoughts on it? Yes, we make a practice of getting staff reports before meetings and reading them. And we caught that and we visited with-- or I visited with Nate earlier and Victor here just before this meeting. Obviously, we feel like that's unnecessary, but we could live with that if needed. I don't know if we could specifically even strike Bell Bondsmen. We certainly don't want to strike professional offices. Again, Bell Bondsman, we feel like, would want to be at the front of the property where they're seen and people get to them. They just know that they're on a regular basis. Greg drives around looking for them all the time. And I'm sorry, this cold. I'm losing it tonight. That's crickets, man. You got crickets on that one. Yeah. But-- OK, so-- Yeah, I don't think we would be-- The time restriction. The time restriction. One thing we would hope, though, is that just like at my office, hopefully not at 10 o'clock at night, but sometimes people come in on the weekends or early, just an individual or two. But certainly, we wouldn't want it open to just routine retail type operations in those hours. So that restriction, I think, would be acceptable if necessary. OK. All right. Council Member Hussman. Can someone orient me on-- you said the county BOC, which offices? There's the old-- there's the building that used to be the gym. There's a Salvation Army. Does that help? And so this is the law building. You see where it says courthouse? You might can use the cursor. You can use the mouse. OK, thank you. All right, so this is the law building right here. And that was bought out by the county. And so it's supposed to become the district attorney's new office. And they already own the front end. They bought Mr. Greenlee's old building. That was my first failed attempt to buy one of the buildings around here. And so that's all Denton County District Attorney. Let me interrupt you. The front, which we-- so there's Salvation Army. Is that the one you're pointing to? This is Salvation Army right here. And then-- excuse me. That's appellate court staff. Yeah. And so that's the appellate court staff. And so this long building is what used to be the gym and then became the law building. And that got bought out. Yes. And so that's what's displacing everyone. So in that building, you have financial planners. You have counselors. You have attorneys. And so I was in that building. And they didn't renew my contract because once your lease is up, they're shooing everyone off . And so the last person out of that building is going to be Tim Powers. And so all of these attorneys and financial professionals are going to be without space. And if you look around the community, there's very little places to go. Even right now, when I'm running for Mr. McMurray, Tom McMurray on Woodrow, I was lucky to find that spot. And so that's why we're trying to capitalize with a lot off of space through that whole corridor because it's going to be filled up easily. OK, thank you. OK, any other questions for the applicant? I've got a couple of questions for staff. Aaron, if we close the public hearing, but we still have questions for the applicant, that's appropriate for us to ask those and for them to respond. Yes. OK, all right. Any other-- anybody else wishing to speak on this public hearing? OK, if not, we'll go ahead and close the public hearing. Question for staff. Could you put aside by side-- I've tried to look at it here-- of what is allowed in NRMU-- what is it, 12 we're looking for? NRMU 12 and what we're excluding. In other words, what's left? What's left out of what we're excluding, or at least what the applicants have said they will exclude on the NRMU 12 designation? [SIDE CONVERSATION] Yeah, I can't read that. Let me look at it. I think it is. I just was looking at it. Well, the reason I ask is I'd like to see what's left, because I know that multifamily is left with a limitation of L4. I know single family attached, which I believe are the town homes. This is my observation. Outside of, I guess, Mr. Allison talking about townhomes with a slide, everybody that's come to talk has talked about professional office buildings. And so if it's limited to professional office buildings, I'm OK. The backup, when it talks about the building height, it just says all buildings will be single story. It doesn't distinguish between multifamily or office building. So it seems like the whole plan here is to provide professional office building space in a phased approach as the demand surfaces if it does that there's an opportunity to develop that out in that regard. When I heard possible daycare, I got a little concerned, because if you put-- I mean, nothing's wrong with daycare, but when you're out there in the back, I mean, kids are going to want to go outside and play. And so you're right there in the back of the neighborhood. So I could get on board with some restrictions of, OK, what do you all really want to do? What do you really think you're going to do? And let's talk about it, because one of the things that we've run into, and people who are in this audience who used to be previous council members understand that when people have asked for rezoning, and they present things that they-- their plans on what they're going to develop, if we don't have an idea of, well, that's what we want to restrict it to, then we don't get exactly what was offered or proffered at the time of the rezoning. And we've had a couple of issues with that. So I'm trying to understand, what exactly do you guys want the opportunity to do? And if it's professional office buildings, with some of the restrictions that you've had, the 35 foot and all the other things, units in the back, AC units and so forth, I mean, I think I can probably get on board with that. What I'm struggling with is some of these other uses that are available, that if you were to say, this is what we're going to do, we may be a little bit more conscientious of other restrictions that would need to be put on the property. So those are just my thoughts. And Council Member Gregory has some observations or questions. Thank you, Mayor. Because of another zoning case that happened recently that we have issues with as far as 24 hour use, and we weren't clear about that at the time, when we talk about the additional recommendation from staff for the restriction of restricting nighttime hours for commercial uses, as noted above, I want to be clear that we know what we're talking about. Because I would imagine that sometimes there are lawyers or other professionals who are needing to spend extra hours at their office. Maybe it's a tax office and it's tax season. And they're working late at night. Are they not going to be allowed to do that? Or can they do that? Is it just that they're not having office hours, seeing customers? What does that restriction mean? And what is it limited to? And how can we word it to be really clear so that there's no confusion down the road? Good point. The intent was really not to have high customer turnover in those evening hours. Of course, the intent wasn't to limit even a janitorial service coming and cleaning at night. That wasn't the intent. But it was more of any use that would have a high turnover of customers. OK. But if there are sometimes associated with these kinds of offices might be licensed counselors working with families or something, and they need to do some counseling sessions in the evening. My guess is that they would not be permitted to do that in this section that's under consideration. But that property is actually divided into three sections. There's already one section that is in our MU-12. And I don't believe it has that restriction on it, does it? It does not. So would that put the owner or the landlord in the position of saying, if you're back in the back, you don't see customers after 7 in the evening. And if you're in the middle section or in the front section , you can. Yeah. That's how we looked at it, just given the fact that it was encroaching into the single family. OK. Do you think that it's worth it clearly enough that down the road when somebody comes in, that it's going to be clear what the intention is? Yeah. I think what was stated on the record today, just to make it abundantly clear. Councilmember Briggs. Some clarification on an overlay. If it was approved with an overlay, and say for some reason you decided that you didn't want to go through and sold the property, does that overlay transfer? And does that then restrict the other purchaser? It would run with the land. OK. All right. Thank you. Councilmember Ryan. Because we're looking at the extreme difference in the zoning, I know we've got different buffer classes. What class of buffer and what would that buffer include between the NRMU-12 and the NR-4? It would require a type C buffer, which is a 15 foot buffer requirement. 15 foot, and that would include then the 6 foot fence that was mentioned earlier, and some vegetation? Yes, sir. OK. And I think I've gotten the other one cleared up on the hours of operation earlier. Thank you. OK. What I've done is painstakingly tried to copy what the restrictions are. And as far as self-imposed uses, use restrictions. And it looks like-- and I may not have it right, so if I'm incorrect, you all will tell me-- that if you take the ones that you've said that you would agree to restrict, what's left is single family dwelling, single family attached, outdoor recreation requiring an SUP , community homes for the disabled. Is it restricted? Did I miss that? Is that-- I think that's right. Yeah, group homes, yeah. Well, no, group homes is a different category. Group homes is a different category, and it required an SUP. So community homes for the disabled. And so if I'm missing one of these, you all just let me know. And duplexes and live work units. All right, so if somebody could help me understand those that were selected, sort of the rationale, by the ones that you're wanting to exclude, and on these that are left, what are your thoughts on that? Primarily, our rationale was simply to strike out things that are allowed in NRME 12 that are not allowed in NR6 that the neighborhood found offensive. The things that are left, except for the offices, are all still allowed in NR6. One difference would be, whether it be single family residential town homes or whatever, the single family density would change from 6 to 12. And I think we could entertain even an overlay that would keep the single family density at 6 per acre, if that was necessary. I would like to clarify, Dalton, that the restrictions, as I understand them-- I say clarify, I may create another question. My understanding is they're supposed to be closed from 9 at night until 7 in the morning, which means they could have family counseling at 6, 7, 8 o'clock in the evening. Right. OK. All right, that's helpful. Thank you. So you said that-- so dwelling above businesses is not allowed in NR6, but it is allowed in NRME 12. But you've, I think-- We've stricken that. Yeah, we don't want that. So anything that was allowed in NR6 that's allowed similarly in NR12 is what you retained. Is that what I'm understanding? OK. All right. I understand that. I thought it was, if NR6 is acceptable today, it would still be acceptable. So it took out for attorney-- yeah, OK. All right. OK, good. That's helpful. Thank you. OK, any more questions, discussion? Trying to look here, because-- so multifamily you took out. Yeah. All right. But let's see, daycare-- what would daycare come under? Yeah, I don't see it. I didn't know if it falls under some other class-- I don't know if it's a specific classification by itself, because I know there's schools, but-- It is. There's adult and child daycare. In NR6, it's SUP, and NRME 12, it is a permitted use. It is or is not? Is permitted. Where is that? I'm looking for that. Oh, OK, I see. Institutional use. OK, I missed a whole page. OK, got you. Yeah. Yeah, OK. OK. Council Member Gray. My only issue is I see that restriction of elderly housing. Since I hit 65, that means I can't live there. But I'm going to-- boy, it is-- Is this working? Gosh. I'm going to move approval of the zoning change as presented with the restrictions proposed by the Planning and Zoning Commission and the restriction proposed by staff. OK. Chair, would-- Council Member Ryan. Would the motioner accept a friendly amendment to keep the density at six units per acre? Sure. In that case, I will second the motion. OK. And it's-- OK. We have a motion and a second. And I believe it was mentioned about the six unit per acre possible restriction. Applicant OK with that? OK. OK, so we have a motion for approval based upon PNC recommendation of restrictions and staff's recommendation of time restriction and then the friendly amendment of the density on either single family, detached or attached would be six units per acre. Is that correct? OK. Council Member Hudspeth. I am-- can you pull up the neighborhood concern sheet one more time? I'm sorry, before we-- I'm prolonging things. Forgive me. There was two sheets. This was from the neighborhood meeting. And this one was from the response forms that were sent back. Did you want the neighborhood meeting? Yes, sir. Right. OK. Thanks. [PAUSE] Oh, is it? Yeah, I'm done. You're just reading. OK, thank you. Should we can move? OK. Council Member Riggs. So I have a question about the time of restriction. How is that enforced? Like what if for some reason there's a vape shop that goes in and they're running? Like what happens in that case? I'm just curious. Like I've never really-- I mean, how is that enforced? When the CO would be issued for that property, it would be issued with the condition on those hours of operation. OK. And then at that point, it would be a co-compliance matter. OK. Thank you. So these restrictions-- who said something runs with the land? But that's not these restrictions? OK, I'm seeing head shaking. So that restriction, the time restriction also runs with the land. Correct. That would be encompassed within that overlay. All right. OK. Well, and I brought this up earlier. One clarification, because I'm reading the backup. And so unless it's somewhere else that's more specific, where it talks about the overlay restrictions, the motion passes 4 to 3 in P and Z. Restrict buildings to a maximum one-story building. Restrict maximum building height to 35 feet. It makes no distinction between office or any type of residential. So I'm assuming that the motion is as presented in the backup based upon the restrictions. OK. All right. OK, we have a motion and a second. I think I've articulated it well enough to understand what the motion is and if somebody has a question. All right. Let's vote on the board. Motion carries 5-2. All right, going on to public hearing 7C, which is hold a public hearing and consider classification from employment center industrial to commercial mixed use for Luke T. East McKinney. The item in front of you this evening is a request to rezone 73 acres from ECI to CMG. This property is generally located at the northeast corner of North Loop 288 and East McKinney Street. My apologies. Just to give you an overview of the zoning, generally around the site, as you can see, there's CMG directly to the south. And then it does have the ECI, again, which would still be retained to the north and east. Based on the compatibility analysis, we found that it was consistent and would meet the criteria for being rezoned to CMG. The land use designation on the property is commercial mixed use. Again, those uses are consistent with the proposed zoning. Again, we felt that it was compatible. There is a future and current arterial roadway to the east and west of the site. And it's a logical extension of that existing zoning pattern. On the public notification that was sent out, we received zero in opposition, two in favor. And with that, we recommended approval, as did planning and zoning commission. OK. Any questions for staff before we open the public hearing? Go ahead and open the public hearing. A couple of cards. J.V. Strange, come down and state your name and address. Your time will begin. What a night. I think I'd move-- if you have senior citizens, the applicants, you should move them to the first of the agenda. Mayor Watson, ladies and gentlemen of the council, my name is J.V. Strange. My office address is 531 North Locust here in Denton. I am the applicant representing 100 North Loop 288 and McKinney-Mayhill Partners. We have acquired this property that you saw the maps of. This property is 73 acres out there. We are the owners of the property, except for two tracks. One would be at the very corner of Loop 288 and McKinney. That belongs to 7-11. But we did have a letter of authority from them that would allow us to include them in our zoning case. And at the time we filed the zoning application, we did own the former county building, which is up on the corner of Market and Loop 288. Subsequent to our application, which was back in July, we sold that property to Sir Denton. And they currently are underway with plans. We have a building permit currently underway to renovate that building to a public community use building. We do have authority from them as well to be included in our zoning application. This property does conform to the Future Land Use Plan, the zoning plan. It was pointed out in the Vision 2030 plan that this would be a CMG area. We feel it's appropriate use for this property. If you go along the highway out there, you come north from Gulland Triangle, you're seeing continual growth of various types of businesses there. Under this zoning, we would pretty much fall in line with what you have seen in all those other areas. I was happy to see tonight the approval of the design bill on McKinney. That certainly would be an enhancement to the property. Those of you who are familiar with this property and perhaps have been out there for recent days, you see substantial progress on Mayhill Road. The power lines are now up. Wires are strung on those. Grading is underway. So after all these many years, Mayhill Road is finally coming through. And I would point out to you, if you have not made the connection with it, that that will be future 2499 when Mayhill is complete down to I-35, where 2499 is coming up. So that's going to become a major thoroughfare. So we'll have major roads on both sides of the track, McKinney Street being a major on the south side. So we feel like that we have found the best use in terms of zoning for this property. We want to get the zoning in place before we start putting any concrete plans together as to what we will do in developing it. And at that point, we'll be back, I'm sure, with plats and all the other required information that the city's going to have for us. So it's been a long night. I'll cut my comments short, which maybe you'll appreciate. And I'll be happy to answer any questions that you might have. Sure. Thank you. Next, House Member Riggs. My question is more for staff. OK. It's regarding the trees on the property. All right. Any questions for the applicant? Seeing none, all right. Thank you. Appreciate it. Can we go ahead and do the public hearing? OK. We've got another card. Pat Smith, you come down, state your name and address. Good evening, Mayor and Council. Pat Smith, 1417 Cambridge. And I hope I get 10 minutes points for brevity. Sir Denton, board member, we fully support this action. And we're underway turning gears to turn the 32,000 square foot eyesore into a 32,000 square foot gem. Fantastic. That's all I got. Not J-Y-M. Right. J-E-M. Yeah, that's OK. OK. This is a public hearing. Anybody else wishing to speak? Yes. Oh, good. Come down, states. He's here. He might as well. Did he? Did you just say Oak? No, he didn't. Greg Johnson, 319 West Oak. I just want to speak in support of this. For those of us in the brokerage community who like to bring retail tenants to Denton, we have been begging our local investors to somebody take a risk and get loop 288 moving to the north. That McKinney corridor, as you all know, is a major east-west corridor. Tons of residents there. Very, very little service is available for those residents. So I want to applaud Mr. Strange and his partners for taking a huge risk in assembling the old Foxworth, Galbraith, and all this other land out there. I will tell you that we have a lot of retail users that are interested. We hope that we can convince a quality grocery store to consider that corner, because they all seem to want to go together and raise a ranch, but nobody wants to go over there and serve these residents over here. We think there's a big-- and I'm sure they're all watching tonight, because this is enthralling stuff we're talking about. So I just want to speak in support of it. I hope that you guys see the same vision that Mr. Strange sees, and obviously what the future land use plan sees. Thank you. Thanks. You bet. Public hearing, anybody else wishing to speak? See no movement. We'll go ahead and close the public hearing. Councilmember Briggs, you had a question. I do. I'm reading the backup, and it's for staff. So I'm just going to read this. First, I'm going to say that I am in favor of this project, and I think it's great for development there in that corner, in that area, and that would be really great. And I'm going to recommend a Trader Joe's in case they're listening. So in the backup, it says, the center of the property is undeveloped and heavily treed. An ESA assessment will be necessary to determine if a portion of the treed area is upland habitat, which is defined as a minimum 10 acre, contiguous remnant of the eastern cross timbers habitat, which is really significant that that is the cross timbers habitat. And it says, if it is present, additional tree preservation requirements may apply at time of development. Can you explain some of those additional requirements, and is that because it would be considered the actual remnant of that cross timbers habitat? Yes, I can try to-- OK. So subchapter. So it would be on top of our tree coat. It would be other-- Correct. Make sure I quote it correctly. OK. [SIDE CONVERSATION] So if CMG permits lots of different uses, some residential uses, commercial uses, if that particular area-- I should back up. If that area is determined to be upland habitat, so if it has the biological markers, if it has the necessary acreage within that post oak forest , then if residential development was proposed for that area, 50% of those trees, contiguous trees, would have to remain in a natural state. Commercial development could just have to meet just the basic tree preservation ordinances. But if it was residential, then 50% of that would have to be preserved in that location. And that's in subchapter 17 of the Denton Development Code. And so that-- also multifamily, is that considered residential? Yes, ma'am. OK. And who will be doing the study? Well, applicants or developers have two options. We have an ESA assessment application that's free. And they can just apply for it. And then our water administration group goes out and looks-- does an on-site field assessment to see if it has all those biological markers that would indicate that that is, in fact, an environmentally sensitive area? Or they could hire their own consultant to do it, still do the ESA assessment application, but turn it in and submit it to the city. And our group would review that to see if it meets all the qualifications. So there's two ways to do it. OK, thank you. Sure. OK. I was just looking at how much we still had left. OK, so anybody else have any questions for staff? Public hearing's been closed. Mayor Pro Tem. I'll move for approval of item C. Councilmember Briggs? I'll second. We have a motion to second. Let's go to the board, please. Carried 7-0. What was that? C? OK. All right, we're on public hearing item D, hold the public hearing and consider adoption of an ordinance to rezone approximately 0.54 acres for neighborhood residential mixed use. Good evening. The item in front of you is to rezone just over half an acre from residential-- I'm sorry, neighborhood residential mixed use to community use general-- I'm sorry, community mixed use general. This property is located at the southeast corner of Teasley and old Alton Road intersection. Based on the compatibility analysis, we did find that it was consistent and did meet the test with that. One item I did want to point out, while this does have an NR2 zoning, this property is owned by TextDOT, and it is right away. It just retained the zoning. Community mixed use land use designation, again, which would be consistent with the proposed zoning. The public notification that was sent out, 0 in opposition, 2 in favor, 0 neutral. And we recommended approval, as did Planning and Zoning Commission. With that, I'd be happy to answer any questions. Any questions for staff before we open the public hearing? Seeing none, thank you. We'll go ahead and open the public hearing for agenda item D. Anybody wishing to speak on agenda item D? State your name and address. Your time will begin. Mr. Mayor, council members, my name is Yolanda Vorle. I'm the lead designer for Tim Beatty Builders in Denton, Texas. And I'm here tonight representing the owners of Pioneer Automotive Denton. I appreciate staff's presentation. And I'd just like to add a little bit of information. The applicant-- applicants, Brian McIntyre and John Miller, are owners of a local neighborhood business, Pioneer Automotive Denton. They are a maintenance and full service automotive repair business. They've leased their current location for nine years. It's only a mile and a quarter north of this proposed location. Their business averages 10 to 15 services per day. They're open six days a week for the convenience of their customers. They employ nine people full time. The applicants are also involved with the community at the high school, middle school, and elementary level through sponsorships in football, baseball, band, orchestra, field days, the list goes on. The applicants have been involved with this process from the initial design. We did present the PDM. We made some revisions, and we gained the support of staff. And even though we didn't do a neighborhood meeting, I'd like to point out that Brian and John went to the adjacent land-- or business owners near their site. And they introduced themselves, and they introduced their project. And as a result, they received two letters in favor mailed to them. And I think staff maybe got an additional one. Took the project to PNZ, and we gained their approval on August the 30th. If we gain your support tonight, the applicants understand that they'll be required to petition for annexation into the city. And they'll also have to amend or replat to give additional right of way on both Old Alton and Teas ley Lane. They also are aware that they'll have to go through the site plan review process and application, and then finally on to building permit. They're very excited to finally own their own location and own building, and they look forward to building their business in the city of Denton. They ask for your support in the zoning change from NRMU to CMG. I have the general contractor, Tim Beatty, and both applicants, Brian McIntyre and John Miller in the audience. And we're here to answer any questions you may have. I've got a question. You said something about voluntary annexation. This property is partially in the ETJ. But we can only zone what's in the city limits right now. That's correct. OK, so there's going to have to be an annexation, then a comeback for rezoning on the annexation portion. That's correct. All right, just want to make sure-- It's a long process. OK. Council Member Hutsbeth. Real quick, will it be accessing from Old Alton? Yes, sir. OK, thanks. OK. Any other questions? Thank you. This is a public hearing. Anybody else wishing to speak? Come down, state your name and address. Time will begin. I'm going to have to really work real hard to go ahead and support this, even though Tim Beatty and Yolanda are doing this work. I'm just kidding. I've known them for a long time. Highly respect them. So very good people. Any other comments for the public hearing? Seeing none, we'll go ahead and close the public hearing. Seeing no questions or requests to speak, Mayor Pro Tem? Move for approval of item D. Council Member Gregory. Second. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion. Nobody didn't vote. I thought that was 6-0. We need-- Don, did you vote? Let's go ahead and do a revote if we could. Adam said he's the secretary. I made a vote. Who seconded it? I did. OK. OK, there we go. 7-0. Thank you all. Appreciate it. You bet. Agenda item 6-E. Yeah, 6-E. Public hearing, initial classification, zoning for 14 acres on Shelby Lane and Dakota Lane. Hold the public hearing. The item in front of you this evening is to apply the initial zoning classification of industrial center general to 14 acres located at the southeast corner of Shelby and Dakota Lane. This is the location of the Lyman College. The trade school was established 2010. Around the same time, they were part of an annexation into the city. Unfortunately, the use under the RD5X, sort of the donut hole in the middle, does not permit the college. So technically, it's considered non-conforming. They're in the process of expanding. And basically, I had two routes. Either go for a variance or really to just rezone the property, which was probably the proper thing to do. And that's what essentially the item is in front of you this evening. It meets the compatibility. It meets the land use of industrial commercial. There were no opposition, no one in favor, no one neutral with respect to the public notice that was sent out. We recommended approval, as did the Planning and Zoning Commission. And this is basically just to get it, to conform with what it already is. It was Lyman College, and it got annexed. And it's a legal non-conforming use. They want to expand. They can't unless they get something done. And this is the remedy. Correct. It's almost like a housekeeping item. OK, great. Any questions for staff? Seeing none, this is a public hearing. We'll open the public hearing. Anybody wishing to speak on this item? Anybody wishing to speak? We'll close the public hearing. Mayor Pro Tem? Move for approval. Councilmember Ryan. I'll second. I have a motion to second. Let's vote on the board, please. [PAUSE] Motion carries 7-0. Next item is hold a public hearing, considered option of an ordinance for the proposed revisions requested by Red Development. The item in front of you tonight, although there's a lot of backup material, I'm going to try to break it down and keep it relatively simple. There's essentially three requests that they're asking. One is to amend exhibit B1, which is the concept plan. Amend exhibit B4, which is the sub-district zone. Again, it has the overlay zone and then the sub-district zone. And then E1, which relates to the signage. Just a little bit of background, 410 acres located on US 380 between Vaughn-E-Bray and Interstate 35. A couple major components, obviously the zoning regulations, site design, and site plan process. And then two major areas to the north, the marketplace, and then the south campus. So the first request is to change essentially the concept plan where you have the hotel and multifamily here. And the proposed is to the south, RR2, which is essentially bringing it around the corner, if you will, for lack of a better way to put it. In conjunction with that is the second request to amend exhibit B4, which is the actual sub-district zoning map. Comparison of the regulations, they're almost identical. The only thing that would really be different is there's no single family permitted in the RR2. But otherwise, the floor-air ratio, lot coverage, landscape areas is essentially the same as the south mixed use or the existing district. As far as design standards, within the south mixed use, there were not created. Those were to be created at a later date when this was initially approved. And so what would happen is by virtue, it would automatically assume the design standards of RR2, which are currently in place. And this is just a comparison to give you an idea of some of those standards, building elevations that were approved by planning and zoning commission on projects. The third request relates to the sign area. As you can see now, there was no sign area designated for this area. Again, this was to come at a later date. What this would do again is bring that sign area to sort of around the corner. In conjunction with that, there was an approved sign plan, which was part of E1. And so it just sort of reallocates sign types along with the frontage of 35. Two major implications, removal of residential use and change in design standards. Sort of look at it as actually whether it's a change or applying the existing design standards. There would probably not be much change from the already established design standards. In addition, looking at the location and proximity to I-35 residential is probably not the highest and best use. Public notification, that went out. There were two in opposition, one in favor. And we recommended approval as did the planning and zoning commission. With that, I'd be happy to answer any questions. Any questions for staff? Seeing none, thank you. We'll open the public hearing. This is a public hearing. Anybody wishing to speak, come on down. Scott Wagner owes you big time. Yeah, he does. Yeah, Scott Wagner owes you big time if you're having to sit here until 1130 at night. OK, anybody else wishing to speak on the public hearing? All right, we will close the public hearing. Mayor Pro Tem? Move for approval of item F. All right. Councilmember Briggs? I'll second. You have a motion and a second. Let's vote on the board, please. Motion carries, 7-0. We will now go on to concluding items. It's a long night. Hope we don't have a bunch of people having concluding items. Councilmember Briggs? Oh, I'm sorry. Somebody take it off. Councilmember Ryan? Yeah. You can go first. You can go first. Go ahead. It won't let me. I saw it pop up. I was just hoping-- I thought I was restricted. I thought someone restricted me. I do have a few here, but I'm going to go really fast. OK, so I would like to request a work session on the way we do fire recruitment and possible scholarships, if we used to do that and if that's possible. I have received and heard on social media many complaints about Frontier and Charter and wondering if there was anything we can do. I know that all we could do in the past was just give them an 800 number to call. Is that still the case? Is there something we can do to get more options for our citizens? Because these two companies are obviously letting a lot of people down. I received and probably several others received citizen letters encouraging our recycling programs and asking us to include businesses and multifamily. And we have been talking about that on the committee on the environment. And I would like to request a work session for council to do. And regarding our code update, I would like a work session on backyard cottages for a council discussion on accessory dwelling units before that happens. And I have a few more. Oh, and the best-- I'm sorry. So it is a domestic violence awareness. And I was given one of these informational guides for victims of violence from Denton County Friends of the Family. And it is a really helpful book. And I was just curious if our police have these on hand or fire departments. And if not, if we can find a way to get access for them to have. I'm sorry, where did you obtain that? I can pass it down to you so you can see. I'd be happy to pass it on. And I have some more I'll save for later. You just have to wait. OK, great. Councilmember Ryan. Mine is much quicker. As you know, I had my town hall last night over at Dena. And I'd like for our staff to look at the possibility of adding some AV equipment, at least at Dena. We might need to look at all the rec centers. But we do have community meetings over there on a regular basis. We try and project onto a whiteboard. It does not show up real well. And I had to carry the projector over there as well, versus when I was at the fire station, I could log on to the computer setting there. And everything popped up on the screen and all was good. This would just be much more helpful if we had some way to do that for all community needs. Councilmember Hussbuth. Thank you, sir. Just following up on our conversation earlier, I'd like to have a work session to discuss options with restroom downtown. And I'm going to heed Mayor Pro Tem's suggestion and correct what I said. Not more of a nurse station than-- what did I call it before? I called it something. No, you called it a nurse station. I thought I called it first aid. No, you called it-- First aid. Yeah, so it's like a first aid type thing, is what I'm saying. There you go. I was correcting myself there. And then the other thing-- I'll email you, Mr. City Manager. But there's a street-- reading the backup this week said parking on two sides needs to be 32 feet, I think. And there's a street where I'm concerned north of Razor Ranch where it is probably of the smaller variety, but they're parking on both sides of the street. So I'll email you that. OK, I've just got a couple. Wanted to announce the Denton County Landlord Forum, which is Thursday, October the 19th, which is this week, two days from now, from 9 AM to 12 PM till 12 noon. Courserve 7701 South Stemmings Freeway. Basically, this is a gathering and a seminar to try to get landlords together to begin to identify and to work in partnership with the Denton County Homeless ness Leadership Team to provide some low-cost affordable housing to those in need and try to figure out some creative ways in order to increase those number of units available. So I certainly want to get as many people attending that as possible who have units in Denton County. Also wanted to announce that there will be a walk, a cancer walk at the Church of Pastor Cham bers. And I'll have to get the address, but it's on the 28th. Do you know what it is? Is it Moore Street Baptist? So it's Mount Calvary Baptist, and it's on Moore Street. Yes, OK. But I'll get more information out, but he wanted me to sort of make that announcement in that regard. Any other requests for clarification? Request for clarification. May I work back to the work session? Concluding items? Seeing none. Last time. OK. We'll do adjourn at 1130. [NO AUDIO]