Jun 27, 2017 City Council on 2017-06-27 12:00 PM

Welcome to this meeting of the Denton City Council Tuesday June 27th 2017. It is 1205. We do have a quorum for meeting here at 215 East McKinney Street in the work session room. Request for clarifications on agenda items listed on the agenda for June 27th 2017. Any blue cards? I don't see any. Because I don't even know if we have any. Work session reports. We're going to move with the council's indulgence because most of the work session reports are sort of internally related, but we do have a guest here to present agenda item D which is receive a report from the charter review committee on their recommendations and proposed revisions to the Denton City Charter and give staff direction. So I would like to move them to the forefront. If that's okay, go ahead and let them make their presentation so they can get on about their day. Brian? Thank you, Mayor and Council. As you know, we've been working with the charter review committee over the past several months to look at a series of different recommendations for the council and ultimately the citizens to consider. Today we have with us the chair of the committee, Joe Mon roy, and so at this point I'm going to ask Joe to come up and present to the council his recommendations from the committee. Go ahead. Don't get out of that easy, Mr. Monroy. Okay. Good afternoon, City Council Mayor and City Council. As will soon be evident, this is totally unrehearsed, so in your AV I'll be a little clumsy with, but I'll try to take you through this and be economical with what I would call the boilerplate, some of the routine business that you've all seen, and then to make sure that you have ample time for questions in the heart of the matters. So at first I do want to acknowledge and extend the gratitude to staff and the A+ support that we got. It couldn't have been more professional, timely, the coordination and anticipation of what we need as a committee. So my hat's off to Brian and to Sarahs and Aaron, Kelly and Robin, and I want to underscore we have verbatim minutes of the main meetings and all the subcommittee meetings, and that engendered quite a lot of work, but I think that having that record preserved verbatim may come into play later on or even in the future, years later, when you want to see what the discussion was. So we had a very broad spectrum represented at the committee, 21 members. It was very diverse and a broad spectrum of experience and perspective, and the majority of them were active in the community one way or another. And I'm pleased to say they were generally very congenial, productive, robust discussions, a lot of give and take, not too much heat, but a lot of consideration for each other and a lot of listening. I know two people that their positions or their understanding, I don't want to say position, but their understanding of the issues evolved as our meetings went on and our discussions went on. That was a good sign. They ultimately ended up contributing in some of the areas that they maybe not agreed with in the beginning, but towards the end they were contributors, they grasped the issue. So realize it was a really good committee process that view points evolved. On your final recommendations, they were all recommended unanimously. So I feel like we processed and went back and forth until we reached a point that was in balance and reflective of what the committee could support. So the citizens of Denton and City Council were well represented on this committee. So we'll start with the history and we can move through this because most of you are familiar with the boilerplate history. So we can go to the slide three. These were the charges. Most of you were here when these charges came about or have read about them. Let's go to slide four. The chair was elected by the committee. I don't know how I made everybody mad in the first five minutes that they elected me. But anyway, we had some, you'll recognize the names here. Again, broad spectrum. And the final report is going to give you very specific language. Let's go to five. Is a history of the meetings and the dates the subcomm ittees were formed. Side six is the makeup of the subcommittees. And I want to hold that for a few moments so you can look at it and see that the chairs were, it's a diverse group of co-chairs. And you'll see that we really spread out the council representation on the subcommittees. Even though I hope everybody's open minded and starts even, just as a matter of some logistics, I think every council member had an appointee that was on each subcommittee. So we'll move again. There's charter history. Go to slide seven, please. Okay, the districts. Should we change to six single member districts and the mayor? The short story is there's quite a bit of discussion. There's concern of some concentration of power in certain parts of town. The easy response, the readily responses, that would only happen once. The rest of the voters would come out and participate if you were outweighed by a particular part in a section of town. But the overall rationale not to make recommendations is as we have it right now, every citizen is able to vote for a majority of council, four members out of seven. So each citizen has an opportunity of representation or avenue of complaints, and the council members hopefully recognize that they're here for everybody. So anyway, so we left that as it is. If we go to slide nine, the term limitations. Quite a bit of discussion back and forth, different scenarios, but two elements of consideration that left us to leave it where it is is the last committee extensively discussed this and came up with a compromise is what we have now. So the other thing is leave the two-year terms because when we're talking about, when we're addressing accountability to the voters, two years makes the ballot box your greatest ethics ordinance. So we moved to slide ten. The one-year district eligibility, we tweaked some language . The main thing is we use the word domicile. Yes, sir, mayor. >> Question. Are we going to -- is this where we should ask questions about the specific changes or do you have some slides where we can ask specific questions about the language and things? >> At the end, there's slides with specific language. >> Okay. I will. >> So if we can -- >> You bet. Yes, sir. >> If you don't mind, we can circle back to each of these items. >> You're good. Yes, thank you. >> Okay. So item 11, slide 11, the recall position. Okay. There was a multifaceted discussion about the recall, should it be raised, and how you should measure. And we made a big, large circle, but the subcommittee came back to measure by a percentage of the voters that voted in the last election, but to raise it from 25 to 35%. Okay. Didn't want to go higher than that because didn't want to put a recall petition out of reach, but recognize that the 25% was a little bit low and like communities, land between 30 and 35. So it was a lot of discussion, but not much differentiation on where we should land on that. >> So is it currently -- so it's 25% of the people who voted in that election? Is that correct? >> Well, say if 100 people voted, then you need 25 people to sign the petition. >> Got you. Okay. >> So in that particular election, it didn't matter. >> It doesn't matter. >> Gotcha. All right. And I think, Councilmember, did you have a question real quick? >> You said like communities. Can you define that a little bit more? Do you mean by size? Or by council members? >> That's a good question, but I do not have that information at my fingertips. That was the report back from the subcommittee. >> Okay. Thank you. We can get that for you, Ms. Briggs. Okay. Slide 12, please. City auditor. Okay. And I understand this is some heartburn in the community, and the gist of the request of the committee was to clarify. And it was very clear the committee members' understanding as citizens, and then when you go back and read the minutes of the recommendation to that be undertaken by the charter committee, they added as an appointed position, it was mandatory. And there's some rationale. I did not bring that. But it was absolutely clear that it was mandatory, and we clarified the duties. We'll get to that job description at the end here. Okay, slide 13. Ethics. Okay. This will be the subject of most discussion in a wide range of views from an individual thought we didn't need to do anything to others that thought we should have a multifaceted ethics charter change that would include a committee that would be empowered to subpoena. And so I feel like we came down with the main points in the middle in our recommendation to counsel. And we'll go to slide 14. So let's go to 15. Let's go back to 14, Brian. We made a recommendation of charter language and then a bif urcated second leg, which is elements we think you should put in the ethics ordinance. And there's a distinction. And the distinction is purposely not to embed too much into charter language that later on becomes problematic and has unintended consequences. In fact, you could have a one sentence, city council will adopt the ethics ordinance. We went further than that. And we did that because of the feedback we got going around the table with the committee. We had two different meetings and we went round robin and the passion and their convictions and the angst really led the subcommittee and the committee to perhaps give you more than less. But our consultant that we brought in Alan Bosquest, his recommendation is keep your charter language lean, but make it an enabling legislation and counsel can write the ordinance and then the ordinance can be changed readily as your experience dictates or as conditions change or you may go down one path on how you're going to operate and decide you want to go left instead of right. If it's embedded in the charter, that's problematic. Every two years you can go back to the charter, but hopefully you adopt charter language that will last for ten years or longer. You're not just having knee jerk reactions in the community and going to the charter. So let's look at the -- that was adopted unanimously on May 17th. So here's the charter language. And I'll give you a couple minutes to read it. >> Is this what you're recommending to actually -- >> Be in the charter. >> -- put into the charter? >> Correct. >> Okay. Sure. >> So did the consultant draft the language? Did the committee draft the language? >> The subcommittee drafted the language. And then there were some inputs from the main committee and we tweaked some language and added not particularly as much on this charter language as on the recommended elements of the ordinance. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yes. >> I got some -- >> I'm sorry. >> I got some feedback from some of the members of the committee and it was regarding the terminology on number three, avoidance of appearance of a conflict of interest. Could you talk a little bit about what the committee means by that? Avoiding the appearance of a conflict? >> Well, that's a -- that's very -- some people have a very broad definition. Others have a very narrow. >> Right. >> But if you've created the problem by the appearance, then it's automatically appearance of conflict of interest, whether there's any meat on the bones or not. So I don't think there's a tight definition. It's a perception thing. But when you write an ordinance, you could get into shorter grass on that and give some for instances. But it's infinite the amount of possibilities for an appearance. >> Which is what my concern is, that infinite in terms of even if the new language regarding tighter prohibitions for economic interest. Because for some folks, even if you were under that amount of interest but still had some interest, for them that would be the appearance of a conflict of interest. So it might be almost an impossible thing. I'm just trying to figure out how to achieve what we're being asked to achieve. >> That's why your committee says the council should include a minimum the following components. That is component is one of the most difficult to make tangible other than the perception side of it. And then when it becomes as perceived as a conflict, then there needs to be answers. There needs to be a response to get perceived. >> I hear you. Thank you. >> Okay. So we'll go to the next slide, 16. Is the recommended elements, okay? So there's some clarification. And again, this is not all inclusive and it's not infall ible. It's from the discussion with our consultant and amongst committee members trying to grasp the main concepts. We're not trying to write the ordinance. We're trying to relay to you the angst in the community. And so being very clear lines of recusing and not voting is more the recusal is more than just not voting. And advocate that we leave the room and not discuss with staff off to the side, you know, my pending zoning case. So we need absolutely clear language on that and very restrictive. I think that's the -- yes? >> And on that one, it appears that that bullet actually describes the whole issue. I believe the practice is we're now doing it except that it does not include that the council member shall not be in the room. And I noted that because that's our practice is we need to leave the room. >> Correct. >> Do you think that the committee to chair would object if we added that as another element? >> No. No problem at all. No and that would be a good ad and I would frankly tell you that was part of the discussion. It just wasn't captured as a singular item. But these elements, as council can flush them out, you know , if you do do a charter amendment and then the voters approve it and you're going to write the ordinance, these are just some guideposts. You can flush them out. And that was discussed, Council Member Gregory. We just didn't get captured. I think a lot of the emphasis and the consultant brought this to our attention, the informal conversations with staff. You don't find that in the statutes anywhere. You don't find that you leave the room anywhere. That's our practice. But that should be codified in the ordinance. The conflict, you know, the very strong feeling that this should be a minimum acceptable is very little, 2% or $500. And there may be some public pushback on that. But the reflection from the citizens on the committee is just has to be a very clear statement and very broad, I mean, very stark boundaries and tighter was preferred. >> Mr. Mulroy. >> Yes, sir. I get a little confused and concerned when we talk about appearance of a conflict and when you talk about perception. Because how are we going to define that? Because if you have one person who says that appears to me to be a conflict, does that mean therefore that person is excluded? I mean, it's so subjective. Whereas a lot of these others really have a real strong metrics as far as measurement, where that is a little bit more nebulous. >> That is spongy. It's difficult to define. But I would hope to shift your thinking and your perspective not necessarily from the community or the citizens' point of view, because they can always allege something and it has to be proven out, yay or nay, is from your peer group, your fellow P&Z members, your fellow council members, when X council member is doing Y activity and it's borderline, it's 100% legal but it's starting to be a pattern, then council can call him to ask and say, well, Mr. Jones, I understand that that's within the law, but the appearance of conflict is a blanket that you've draped over our council deliberations and perception in the community and we're going to call you to task on that. So it's really from the inside out, that appearance, because if you don't call someone in because they create a negative perception, then you've diminished your esteem and your ability to work with the community. >> Thank you. So the elected and appointed officials will comply with the applicable laws of the state of Texas, including not limited the different codes. I do want to bring to your attention the 171 and we have some language now that will go away if you adopt the recommended language, but where there 's a gap is on your boards and commissions, okay? Because 171 will cover boards that are sovereign or legislative. An advisory board, it doesn't. But for our community and our size community, you know, our recommendation is that you include all board appointees because you could be on the public arts board and really create an avenue to get an award to an artist and that's a conflict. You say, well, I don't have a legislative role. Well, you have influence. So when you do write an ordinance, I suggest that you cover all appointed officials, not just the sovereign ones. The ethics complaints will be heard by a three-person panel with mediation and arbitration experience. Pools to select and determine remuneration for a panel pool of not less than seven. So a rotating sequence may be established. Again, this is a recommendation. We think it's an element. You can embellish it. You can make it smaller scope. But the thinking behind that is originally was to get retired jurists and some folks said, no, we want to open it up to regular citizens. Well, they have to be appointed by somebody right now. We wouldn't presume say anything other than council. But by having seven citizens or seven members of this review board in the queue, always rotating, then you'll have a diverse adjudication and it won't be the same person and hopefully you've selected people that perhaps they're attorneys, perhaps they're businessmen that have mediation experience, but they certainly have to be people that are very sensitive to the private nature of any ethics allegation. Because you want to make sure there's not innuendo and rumor that's going out and ruin somebody's career. Because it's hard for them to get that back. Yes, sir. Did you all have some cities as an example that used this particular type of strategy? Well, we have several cities that were named but that had extensive ethics ordinances and some extensive charter language. I'm just talking about the mediation panel. Oh, the mediation experience? No, I can't give you a name of a city that has the same. I'd just be curious to find out. It looks like a very good idea to me, given a lot of ideas that have been pitched. I feel much more comfortable about that than some of the others that I've heard of over the past couple of years. I was just wondering if we'd had an example from a city. No, frankly, I put that on the table because I started with retired judges and that would be part of their experience and of course they would adjud icate with fairness and with the sense of privacy until something needed to become public. They would be sensitive to personnel matters. Anyway, we had a lot of input, different opinions. Our recommendation is to you that you'll figure out a way to select these people and how you're going to compensate. That's much more beyond the committee's purview, but I strongly suggest that you have like seven in the queue and that you 're always rotating. That way you always have fairness and you don't develop a center of gravity that you can't undo. The mandatory ethics training should be adopted and enforced. Then the consideration to be undertaken to include all city employees. This becomes a point of discussion. I don't think it was a great conflict because this was voted unanimously out of the main committee. What the discussion was, it should be embedded. If we don't embed it in the charter language, then the employees will never be covered. Well, that's not necessarily true because we're recommending that you do include the employees just to craft that there's different ways. The sensitivity of it, I'll just give you an example. If you look at your org chart, the group at the top, the elected and appointed officials, they don't really answer anybody but the citizens. When you have this review board, that's where you want to point that accountability to. You look at the rest of the org chart, the folks answer to the city manager. They have their policy and procedures manuals and you have a chain of command. Now there's different ways to have an ethics criteria for your employees. If you make it part of the main ordinance in the charter, then you set up a competing chain of command. As a city manager, you're undermining his management priv ity to his employees and his disciplinary routine. You start creating that problem. Now if you want employees covered, it's very easy to adopt the same provisions in your HR manuals and then the city manager and human resources would provide the accountability. What you want to avoid is if, an example, and it even touched on perception, is if Joe the inspector is having lunch every other Friday with Bob the builder and the city manager looks at that and before he talks to Joe the inspector, he pulls all the records and he realizes that Bob the builder is not getting any favors. He's getting as many red tags as all his peer group and he finds out that Bob the builder and Joe's sons play ball together and they're in the bleach ers twice a week cheering on their team so there's a natural friendship and acquaintance outside of the workplace. But the perception of a conflict of interest, going to the smokehouse every other Friday and having a barbecue sandwich, it won't take long when there's people talking and it's going to diminish the capability of other inspectors. They're going to say, "Well, this isn't fair. So-and-so gets a good deal because he buys him lunch." There's a perception at play. The city manager calls Joe in and says, "Well, I've run the numbers. You're not doing anything illegal, but you're creating a perception of conflict of interest on company time and you're hurting the whole city." That city truck parked out there every other Friday, it's pulling down our credibility with the community. So Joe, I want you, you've made it an issue. I want you to undo that and make sure it's no longer an issue. So a couple times a year, occasional lunch, it's not an issue. So the city manager may choose to have a serious talk, say it's a perception. This is my verbal warning to you and next time it won't be verbal, it'll be a written warning and perhaps a demotion and I'll re-situate you in another position, you'll no longer be in the public face as a building inspector. Okay, so that's how many organizations it would happen. But the manager's done his homework and he's counseled that employee and he's had the situation addressed. Well, then what if the citizens committee says, "Well, I'm going to complain to the ethics review board and start this all over again." Well, he's undermined the city manager's ability to manage his personnel. So however you include employees in an ethics ordinance, and there's several ways, you need to make sure it is fully integrated with your human resource policies and with the way the management, privity and chain of command would work . So that would take a lot more working than the committee had time to do. Yes. -Officer Mayor Pro Tem had a question. -So okay, just a little bit of history. When former city attorney Burgess presented the idea of the charter review committee to us, as I recall, it was presented in the context of using the model city charter that the National Civic League put out as kind of a guidepost. So I'm wondering, because the recommendations deviate considerably from the model city charter, and I guess this could be a question for you, Mr. Mulroy, it could be a question for legal, how much consideration was given to that model city charter ? Because that was my understanding going forward was that that was our starting point. I guess that's my question. -Aaron, do you have a comment on that? -I'm not familiar with what you just described. As far as the national city charter, the model, we do have a copy of that in our office, but as far as the statement that that actually served as the basis for the committee to consider initially, that I wasn't familiar. I know that we've had a lot of discussion at that and even brought in a subcommittee selected ethics expert to come and speak about all the different issues. But as far as what you've asked, I'm not familiar with that that was what they were supposed to start with. -Then the second part of my question would be how much, because reading the minutes, I couldn't really decipher if the model city charter was considered, so kind of need some first-hand information. -It was not, Council Member Begarri. We were not pointed in that direction, but what became overarching to the committee and to myself after I was elected chair is the doubting Thomas of our own legal department. If the legal department said white, then it has to be black , vice versa. I'm not going to pursue any merits of that because you can color some of the things over the last couple of years in different colors, but the bottom line is we thought it would be very helpful to go outside of our structure and get a consultant that really specialized in city government and ethics. That's where we got Alan Baccaras, and we spent a whole, I think we spent two hours with him in a presentation, and he laid out a better understanding. We never did, and some guideposts for us to go by, which I 'll touch on in a minute. We really didn't get into modeling after the national city charters. It was never put on the table. -Sure. -Yes. -This is just more of a general conversational comment. I read the model city charter after City Attorney Burgess presented it to us when this committee was presented as an option. It's been drafted by people who were preeminent in the field of ethics and governance. While I don't doubt the discussion that happened, and I don 't doubt the legal advice that you were given or the consultant that was hired, I'm just per plexed that the model... A city, an organization, the National Civic League that was established by former President Roosevelt specifically for the purpose of government accountability has commissioned a model city charter that was utilized by multiple cities, has been utilized by multiple cities, and it was never considered by this charter committee. It gives me some pause because that's how I recall having the model city charter presented to us as a model city charter and a starting point for a discussion about ethics. I just want to put that out there for discussion. -I recall the term being mentioned as far as it being... I'm not saying it was or wasn't. I don't recall it being an emphasis that... I think if it were to the level that at least the council who voted on the resolution understood, I would have thought it would have been included in the resolution as part of the charge. I was reading through the resolution and I didn't see it. I understand what you're saying. I just can't recall enough to... I don't recall that it was specific charge that you will use this as a springboard. -I don't think it was a specific charge, but it's surprising to me that it was presented to us to consider, but not to the charter committee to consider. -I understand what you're saying. -It's just kind of strange. -Okay. -I will stand to be corrected, but Aaron, I don't recall getting that information put forth on the table. -No, I don't recall either, Joe. -If I can maybe help this one turn the prison a little different, Council Member Gary, I'm really pleased that we got a consultant and it was a three- member committee that selected that and we got them here. Even the outside view was helpful and there was some confidence and I think the credibility was attributed to him because of the experience, Alan's experience. But what it distilled down to, I mean, you can have as much fine print that you want, but his experience related to us is it appeared, and I had a lot of agreement with the committee, that what we've suffered from the last many years is a lack of enforcement. So no matter what is written, if you're not enforcing it, then we have this great angst in the community. And then the remedy, above all, above all language, from the small print to the large print to whether it's a one page or two paragraph change in the charter or a ten page is the leadership. Without the leadership and the continuing training, it's all just words. So that was refreshing and it was very bright light and we have to understand as a community and a community leaders that whatever you do, you have to have the sustainable leadership role in the sustainable training, ongoing training, and you 'll see that's in some of our language. So I would say that I haven't looked at the model city's charter, but I know what ails us was really enforcement and dialogue with the community and accountability. It was just a huge complacency in the community and then it just got to a tipping point. So here we are today saying how do we address it and how do we put something in front of the voters that the average person can understand and be in favor of. So there's different ways to look at it, but that's how we got to where we are. So and then one of the Allen's common is, again, I know I 've touched on it, is less is better than the charter. Try to make it enabling legislation and by ordinance craft how you want to operate and then that gives you flexibility in the future to change your ordinance very readily going back and changing the charter will not be an easy thing. Councilman Gregory has a question. I sure hear what you're saying and I'm wondering if some of your concerns could be addressed by the council looking at the details of that. What did you call it model city charter where it regards ethics and looking at not only the recommendations from the committee for our ordinance, but looking at that and incorporating those elements into the ordinance with. My concern is we have a unanimous recommendation from the committee and at this particular point, I think if we went back and reworked, I asked them to rework the whole thing in that light, we would miss the November opportunity and maybe we should. Maybe we should miss that because I think doing it right rather than doing it quickly is more important. But would it work to have those elements under consideration as we do our ethics ordinance? Yes, of course. Thank you for that kind of overview and potential integration. So the model city charter does not contemplate drafting. The model city charter recommends that cities enact ordin ances for details of ethics violations, but there are certain prohibitions that are expressly recommended to be prohibited specifically regarding self-interest and financial gain. So it's maybe five paragraphs in total in the model city charter. It's not a long provision that says city councils will enact ordinances, but following that, they have very specific prohibitions and they have a very specific scope of what should be which tracks similarly with what the charter committee recommended as far as scope, but I think it's somewhat clearer and broader. I think it's a little bit clearer in the model is what I'm saying. So I hear what you're saying as far as integrating it, but this actually says, you know, put it in an ordinance, but here before you do that, make sure these things are taken care of. And if I may further respond, Brian, if you go back to 15, another way to view this is the recommended charter language for ethics. It just opens the door and sets the floor. It doesn't preclude you from taking the model city's elements of the model city's charter and weaving that into the ordinance that you would create. This is just distilled down what the voters would be voting for and that would be essentially an ethics ordinance. So I don't think it precludes Councilmember Gary when you write the ordinance adding the features that you want or you feel missing or should be re worded so you can craft it as council sees fit. We can come back to this after we get through the ends, go to 17 please. All right. So salary or stipend? This was a... This is the best part. This is the best part. I'm teasing. Well, no, I'll submit to you. I'm one of the folks that evolved their perspective because I just thought it was problematic. I'm going to take this to the community. But as we had the discussion around the committee and came back to it, it's very clear that a stipend would promote diversity on city council and just not ethnicity, but social economic. And that's part of getting a better, more fuller mix and spectrum on the council representing the community. And after our discussions, I came to agree with that. And it's not the amount of money aren't going to let anybody retire or let them quit their day job. But a young housewife with two kids, if she has to hire a babysitter, this could offset some of those costs while she goes to meetings. How many do you have? Three. Okay. Anyway. Of course, this this would be helpful in a lot of areas. And so this is very strong conviction from the committee after all the discussion. Councilmember Gregory, I just can't pass the opportunity. I figured the number of hours I'm putting in and it would be about 937 an hour. And I don't think you can hire a babysitter for that. Are you overpaid? Is that what you're trying to do? I wouldn't do this job for that little money. No, it's it's it's almost an honorarium. It's recognition. But it will truly help some people and help them answer the question of this. They do I want to run or not. And if you it's serious business, you watch your last meetings the last two or three times, it's it's really absorbing to you. It's takes a lot of your energy and your time. And so to have a form, even though it's a minimal form of compensation, I think unanimously the committee would like you to take that to the community. Councilmember Duff has a question. Yes. Yeah, I I've thought about this already. And you know, for me, that amount of money doesn't make any difference. Okay. But my feeling is is in the long term. I think we want to get more diverse people running on the city council. And I think that that may make a difference for some people to actually run. But for me, it doesn't make any difference. Councilmember Gregory. Thank you. On a serious note, I know that conversations about pay for council members has been had before in the city. And one of the concerns that came from that is the prohib ition on people with with certain jobs being able to also collect money. That's correct. And so I'm wondering, and this may be a legal opinion that needs to be had. And I'm speaking specifically. If you were employed by the University of North Texas or Texas Women's University, and maybe by the Denton Independent School District, I'm not positive on that one. You would be prohibited from from being a member of city council collecting that money and employed in your main. But I understand from Attorney General rulings that if you forgo if you forgoed for went if you didn't take the money. I should have thought that one through ahead of time. If you didn't take the money, there would be no there would be no prohibition from serving on city council. So would would a charter amendment require a council member to receive their stipend? It wouldn't require that you actually receive the stipend. I mean, if it's adopted, and building up what you meant said earlier about university employees holding a local or city council position, you know, there is a G support that they would they could actually forgo in writing that they don't want the stipend. And that would be fine. That would be that would allow service of a university employee. But nothing prevents you from just declining to accept the money altogether. And some council members may choose to do that in the future if this is adopted, but especially because the receipt of this income is treated as earned income under for IRS tax purposes. So you know, some people may not want to do that. It just depends each each council member will have their own individual decision to make. Okay, thank you. But to be clear, it doesn't prohibit you from serving, it just prohibits you from collecting the money. If you're a state employee, and maybe school district. And would you comment about how you came to the numbers that you've come to? Well, that's why you have some that's why you have subcomm ittees. I think that they reviewed other city council stipend amounts reviewed the property levels and consider that it should be an amount in recognition for time and effort spent. They really charted out a host of other cities, how they're paying some are paying by the meeting, some are by the year, some by the month, and I will I'm going to and Brian may have to help me here. I think they looked at at least six to 10 other cities. And then they came converged on this amount as being representative of our city. Is that about the right number? So, can we have a couple questions, Councilman Ryan and Councilmember Briggs. Thank you, Mayor. On kind of staying on that same line on the amount of money , was there any discussion of just because anytime you give politicians the ability to vote their own raise, they most likely will. So was there any discussion on maybe tying it to the median income, a percentage of what medium income in the community so it causes the council to have to increase the way the economic development and the job scale that we have in town in order to actually get themselves a raise as opposed to just being able to vote for it? Well, Councilmember Ryan, I know some of this was gauged on the poverty level and looking at that number, but on the raises, when we get to the specific language, the ability to increase it 3% is just an ability. Council will have to vote on it. They could not, I believe we'll get to the exact language, they can't collect it until after the next election. So if you voted for a 2% raise and you felt good about it, that's fine, but it won't come into play for you until after your next election. So it's kind of a self-balancing deal on putting the brakes on going wild with that percentage. So 3% was just a cap, a potential, and it may not happen. Councilmember Briggs had a question. So mine isn't really a question, it's more of a statement. I'm just going to say I've been doing this for free for over two years and will continue to do so, but let's not kid ourselves. I mean, 9,000 a year minus taxes, that's not going to encourage diversity. It's not going to be able to make this a full-time job, and in my opinion, that needs to be the goal. This is 40 hours minimum a week and up on to that. So that's just a general statement. So if we are doing this to encourage diversity, we need to actually really think about that. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, let's go to slide 18. Do you have a standing to present? I thought you had the language. Yes, sir. I'll grab this mouse if you don't mind. Sure, Mayor Pro Tem. I will recognize Dr. Larkins here. She's the co-chairman of the ethics subcommittee. Thank you for coming, Patrice. I think Mayor Pro Tem had a comment. I just wanted to second what Councilwoman Briggs said. I think going into this, my thought was similar to Council man Ryan's, which is that it would somehow be a portion of the median income in our community. That way we can -- all council members will have median income in mind because they'll know that number. And I also don't think 750 or any type of honorarium is enough to encourage actual diversity on council. You'll get the same kind of self-employed, stay-at-home scenario, which that may be what people want, but I think we're missing a lot of voices that could be heard in our self-government, and that's really unfortunate. So -- Well, the great thing about this process is these are recommendations from the charter committee, review committee, and that it opens it up for discussion that we have the opportunity to make modifications to that if so desired by the council. I mean, what I'm hearing y'all say is that it should be something more akin to a wage that would be provided for a full-time job, whatever that is, and that if that's what the council so chose, then that's something that we can make modifications. This is just simply a recommendation from the committee. And I'll elaborate a little bit, council members, is there was really a struggle, you know, is it going to be -- should it be enough to be a full-time, should it be an honorarium, should it land, and the -- no disagreement whatsoever in the amount of hours, and that it's -- don't know if it's ever going to be a full-time job for someone, if that would be their goal. So you've got a lot of dynamics, cross-currents, but the one thing I want to bring your attention to is the City of Denton, just to have a stipend would be an enormous step, and have all these propositions. This may be the hardest one to sell to the community. So you may think in terms of what would be acceptable by the community today in the present frame of mind. So but that's certainly council's prerogative. >> Councilmember Gregory. >> You just made an interesting statement that I really hadn't thought about very much, which was selling to the community. Now, a lot of times when we have a bond committee, one of the expectations is that if there are members in the bond committee that support this, that they would go out to community groups and speak in favor of it and explain why. I don't recall that we've ever done that when we've had a charter change. And do you anticipate that some of the members of the charter committee after this will be in a position or feel the need to sell it or simply explain it? >> The frame of mind in the conversation that I've had and overheard is there was great satisfaction that we landed in very reasonable arena on most all these items that are pretty succinct and easy to explain to the community. The charter members know they'll be asked, and they're happy we're unanimous, and that's a little bit of armor to go and say this is what the committee decided. So I think they're not mentally geared up that they have to do a sales campaign, but they are in their minds know that they will be a voice. >> Okay. >> Okay. I'm going to take you through the language. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. The eligibility, we just changed the domicile and made it clear on the one year. >> I've got a question on that. What was the rationale behind that? Because I mean those are pretty strong term of art, I mean legally as far as so was it the idea that residing was just too rigid or too nebulous or ambiguous or what? >> Well, and I'll let Aaron certainly correct me when I go astray, but the legal definition of the legal definition of residence is pretty wide and broad. So if you reduce it down to your domicile, where are you living? Where's your dog? >> Where's your what? >> Where's your dog? >> Okay. I said where's your dollar? >> No, your dog. So no, I brought a ruling from the IRS and they came down to where a gentleman was keeping his dog, but domicile lets you tie it down to where you really stay. >> Okay. So it really ties it a little bit. >> Yes. >> That's what you're saying. All right. Fantastic. Thank you. >> Okay. We have to move this. >> Yes, sir. >> Oh, you do. >> Don't touch it. >> I don't know. It'll go away. >> That's right. >> The recall percentage is pretty cut and dry just from 25 to 35. Let's go to the next one. I think that's city auditor. Now you take a few minutes and read that. >> Oh, yes, Councilmember Gregory. >> I do have a question on that one because I guess it's the next page of it says that the council could hire an outside person for a limited basis. >> On an interim basis. >> On an interim basis. Okay. It's the third sentence of the first paragraph. The position of the city auditor is to be held on a continuous full-time basis. On an interim basis, the city council may engage external independent auditing resources. Do we define interim to be not more than six months or not more than? >> Not offering a definition on that. >> I wonder if we need to. Was there any discussion among the group about that? >> The interim basis pulled it back in from original suggested language that you could do the auditing services totally outsourced. But the interim basis, and I don't want to delve too deeply into hypothetical contract situations, but it could be that maybe city council needs a full six months to handle a certain situation before you would interview somebody. And then it may take you three to six months to interview and hire. So a year is easily foreseeable as an odd occurrence. >> I get the intent that the idea is it needs to be filled. >> Yeah, correct. >> Okay. Thanks. >> You bet. Thank you, Brian. >> You're welcome. >> Okay. >> I don't touch anything. >> I'm going to glitch you off the hook, Mr. Monroy. >> Sure. >> You can see what you're existing is what we're deleting. And then we have our suggested language. Now I'll just refresh your memories. The ongoing discussion were to write an ordinance or make it more stringent, you had to overcome your existing language. And there's merit to that. There's probably a way that you could carve those areas out , write an ordinance, but the cleanest way is to delete those two and start with new charter language and start with a clean ordinance. And that was the recommendation from the consultant also. Yes, sir. >> Okay. So I understand about the personal interest that that was one that would be deleted and then it would be -- this following section would catch that . The nepotism one, are you saying that should be put in an ordinance form instead of in the charter or -- >> I think it's in the state law, the chapters that we -- >> Okay. So it's redundant is what you're saying. >> Yes. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. >> And Aaron, you correct me if I'm -- >> You're correct, Joe. >> Misremembering. Okay. All right. You want me to touch that? Oh, my. >> One more. >> See what he's doing there. He's moving that one mouse thing down. >> If you'll pay council members, there's people that know how to do this. >> Councilmember Briggs has a question or a comment. >> A question. Are we going to make recommendations to each other about what we see or -- I mean, what is the rest of this process? We're just going to get through the presentation and then -- >> Well, let's get through that and then we can have a discussion about it. >> Okay. We are going to discuss even though -- okay. >> Yes. >> Just want to make sure. >> Wherever that takes us, yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Okay. So this next sheet is what you've seen. We did have this up on the big slides. So it's not new language to you. All right, Brian, I'm going to try. >> Hey, there you go. Wow. >> And I can't learn any new tricks. >> And stipend is what we've discussed. >> That's true. >> Okay. So that's it. That's your language. >> Okay. Before we have discussion amongst ourselves, let's go ahead , if we have any questions from Mr. Mulroy. Yes, Council Member. >> Yes, I have one last. Is it your understanding from the committee that this would be presented to the voters as either one change or as a series of specific changes based on those different -- >> Separate changes. Each would stand alone. >> Each would be their own proposition. >> Yes, sir. >> And as far as we know, you could change one of those and not change the others and it would not damage the overall credibility or the vi ability of the charter. >> If I understand your question, making those changes from the recommendations from the CRC, before you call the election, you're making changes in between or you contemplate you may make changes, is that permissible? >> No, no. What I'm saying is if you -- so if there are five propos itions, are any of those propositions dependent upon one another? So that if Proposition 1 passed and Proposition 2 failed, there's some type of flaw in the charter? >> No. >> Okay. >> They are all independent of each other. >> Okay, that's fine. Thank you very much. >> Okay. >> Any other questions from Mr. Mulroy? Council Member Briggs and then we'll go to Council Member Ranney. >> So on the conflict, the percentage on the recommendation was 2% ownership or $1,000 in a year. And so my question is why not zero? Because if you have an appearance of conflict provision, any money that's going to be made is going to create that conflict. So I'm just confused by the two going together. If you're -- you know what I mean? Like as far as an appearance? >> Well, it's a good comment. My personal position was zero. >> Right. >> The state's position is much higher than we had this suggested by committee members and that's what they settled on. So it's very de minimis. It's a very small threshold. >> But with that appearance of conflict, it would be considered that if you're making some money, even if it was just minimal. >> Well, then the actual conflict and the appearance of conflict, you're weaving them together a little bit. >> Okay. >> But see, the ownership should not be greater than 2% or $500. Income should not be greater than $1,000. 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So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. >> So that's the threshold. >> Okay. City auditor language. Any proposed changes to the city auditor language? Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. I'm sorry. I don't have it right in front of me, but the language is kind of the last line, and I'm doing it from memory, says that in the interim, an external audit function, an external audit service may provide the function of the internal auditor. And that's vague for me. >> Yes, it says on an interim basis, the city council may engage external independent auditing resources to accomplish the internal audit function. >> Here's why that's weird. Because external audit has a different function, and they do different things than internal audit does. And it would be very hard to find an external auditor to do the things that we have internal audit do. >> Okay. So maybe there's some nuance of language here, because there's probably contract auditing services or companies that will perform what you're referring to as primarily internal auditing functions. And so when external auditors have a meaning to us, because we always hire an external auditor for the CAFR. So but here it says external independent auditing resources . I don't know if that external is being used. I think it's just referring to something outside of the city, but I could be wrong. So what would make you more comfortable, some language that might make you feel more comfortable with that? >> I would just strike the last line on an interim basis. I mean, it seems unnecessary, but that to me is what I would do. >> Okay. Understanding that -- so what if the council had a need where, let's say, an internal auditor resigned, and it takes a while to do a search, it takes a while to do the hiring process, if we have a need for an internal audit function, what do we do? I think that's all that's asking. >> Well, in response to that, I think you would have to put a time constraint on it then as opposed to saying on an interim basis, you would have to define what interim basis means so that you couldn't go like eight years without having an auditor. So if it said on an interim external audit and blah, blah, blah, no more than, let's say, 18 months. >> Something along those lines, yeah, for no longer than -- >> That helps narrow the focus for staff. If maybe some -- you know, go back and review the minutes and we'll see if there's something there. Councilmember Briggs, you had a -- >> Yeah, I'm in agreement with that. I would prefer to strike it if not add a time in there because it says that the city should shall be appointed and so if you have that, it makes it an either/or rather than just a -- >> I just noticed too, it says the city may engage -- it's a permissive language. Shall is required language requirement. May is permissive. So it doesn't actually even require the city council to engage an external independent auditor. It just says the council may engage in -- I don't know what this sentence is supposed to mean. Maybe this is lawyer brain going -- >> I can interpret what the committee was thinking on that last sentence. They understand -- you know, they put the requirement that an auditor shall be here full time 24/7, 365 days a year. But they also recognize that if an auditor were to be resigned or a contract not renewed, it would take some time to find a new one. And so they wanted to provide this council and the city of flexibility to hire an outside auditing company to perform the same internal audit functions if you needed to, if there was a need for that service. And that's why it was written in the permissive May language. That's the sole purpose of that statement. They recognize that we're calling it full time. You may need to have somebody come in on certain projects. And that was the whole basis for that last statement. >> Councilmember Craig. >> It seems to me what it's saying is the council is not going to be in violation of the charter if there is a period of time where a search is being done and a new auditor is being hired. And the council would have a purview if something came up and we needed to hire an external auditor to perform some function that would normally be done by an internal auditor, that could happen, but it's only for an interim basis. I mean, that's the way I read it. And I think it's requiring the council to in a rather jud icious, quick fashion to replace an auditor once an auditor leaves. >> Let me go to Councilmember Ryan. >> I agree with that. And I also go to we've been talking about ethics. And should the auditor have an ethics issue that they could have to recuse themselves, this gives the city the ability to bring in an external internal auditor to do that. I mean, there's a lot of different things that you can read into this, whether it's a temporary when you don't have an internal auditor or additional help for your internal auditor or in the case that the internal auditor does not have the ability to complete that internal audit. >> Councilmember Ritz. >> It would need to have a date on it so that we don't go seven years without an auditor like we have in the past. >> Do you think that that sentence that says the position of the city internal auditor is to be held on a continuous full-time basis really says that? Because it didn't say that in the current charter. I mean, it seemed like that sentence pretty much says it. >> Okay, so you think that that line takes care of what was missing in the charter before when we didn't have one? >> I think it makes it a lot more clear. I mean, if it's just what I don't want to do is fight over an amount of days that seems to tie everybody's hands. But I mean, if you can't, I do have a question the staff can bring back. We have other appointees, we have city managers, we have city attorneys. How is the language in that specific charter language handle the interim requirement? I don't remember reading that the council has an opportunity to hire. So I just want to, I mean, we can look at consistency. And if we've always interpreted it, well, we hired an interim city manager. Now that would be different because with our internal auditor position, we only have one person. So if that person left to hire quote unquote an interim internal auditor, we'd either have to look within or we'd have to look without. So we'll bring that back, but at least it's narrowed the focus a little bit on that. Yes, Mary Pro Tem. >> Where it says the position of the city internal auditor is to be held on a continuous full time basis. I would say if you're using shall language in the prior clauses, you need to use shall in that language to make it required. I know that sounds crazy, but there's a rule about that. >> You're talking about change the may to shall? >> It says the position, it should say the position of the city internal auditor shall be held. That's what it should say. I know. >> Yeah, that, I mean. >> But then that restricts you from, that means you can't go without one if somebody resigns or if somebody's contract is terminated. That means you're violating the charter. >> Well, you can have a provision in there for absentee or missing employees interim provisions. I think that's the way to address it is in the event of a vacancy, this is what happens. As opposed to saying we don't make that required. >> Yes. >> But we would also want to be able to cover what Council member Ryan said if an internal auditor had to recuse him or herself for some reason that we would have the ability to hire someone else to do a particular function. >> Yes. >> Yeah, I think I'm getting there. For me it's a practical application, right? Enforceability. No matter what this says, you still have to enforce it and there's people that are going to, if they are having a dissenting opinion, they're going to fight you to the end of the time on that dissenting opinion. You know, so the words on this paragraph aren't, you know, I think it's better to spend this time making wise decisions on who we hire than, I mean, I don't, there's no way I could care, I mean, I guess I've just, my experience in the legal system is you can sue anybody for anything and it doesn't have to have merits and you can plead anything and you can fight over it to the end of time and at some point, still today, I don't know what the definition of is is, but you know, I just think you can get so caught up in these things that you, you're buoyed of reality that it doesn't stick if they don 't want it to because you have a right to take it to court, you have a right to an appell ate process and you can run it up the ladder as far as you want and so I think at this point, I mean, I'll be interested in seeing where we fall, but there's no security blanket in these words. I mean, ultimately the process is the same. Someone can take issue with it and start the process. Well, and so we'll bring back, we'll have staff either bring back some options or we'll grab some options and then we'll decide as far as and I understand that part of the concern is based upon past history with city council. So I want to ensure that we help alleviate that, but I don 't want to go to the other end and that is create some unintended consequences and so it's just going to, unfortunately, just take a little wordsmithing, but like you said, council member Hussbuth, we could wordsmith it to death, but if over time people don't enforce it or it's ignored, then it's just that's all it is, is words on a page. Yes, mayor Pro Tem. There's no mechanism for outside enforcement of these functions. I mean, there's not a way that you could go to court and litigate over this and this is, I mean, I hear the outside view of, oh, it's just words and you need, that's the reality of the situation is you need somebody to interpret the words and you need enforcement. We don't have enforcement and in the absence of that, you need very clear crafting of language. That's what, we're acting as a legislative body right now and we have to be very, very clear about the words that we put in laws. So I take a little bit of a different view based on my experience in the legal profession, which is words matter quite a bit. Well, and as you mentioned though, in the end, like you mentioned your story with the Guam legislature, that in the end, if something is not right and if there's no enforceability, there is an enforceability of this charter provision and it 's elections. So I think that's, you know, that's what it sort of falls down to in the end. So I appreciate those comments. All right, then we'll go on to, so we got a little bit of consideration left on that. Let me pull my, okay. The next one is ethics. We know that we're probably going to be talking about that. I'm just going to move past that one. Stipend, it seems like the two observations have been it's okay with the committee recommendation or at least from what you Council Member Briggs and Mayor Pro Tem had mentioned is, is it enough? And so am I incorrect in that kind of analysis? Well, our intention for wanting, I mean, we have to really establish what is our true intention and what are we trying to get at by doing this and is that amount going to make that difference? But I'm wondering, do we have to include an amount or is that a specific amount in the charter language? As compared to? Not as just saying that. But you got to tie it to something or we're using it saying establish it by ordinance. Right. We can establish the amount by ordinance, but just that we get a stipend in the charter. I guess, and I appreciate that. I guess when my first response to that is, it's sort of, I would then sort of reflect your discussion about the wording of the charter in the, in the charter for ethics issues because of the ability for people to change things. And so the same would apply to this that if you got people who wanted to, but I don't care. If this is the best place for, I think it will depend on what are other cities doing. Does the model ordinance have specific in there? But I want to go back to your, so it didn't, so correct me if I'm wrong. You weren't necessarily advocating for a lot higher amount only if what is the rationale that we're actually doing this. If we're stating a rationale and that this won't get us there, but if we're just simply saying we want to provide, you know, as cities our size, some of our cities our size do to provide some kind of compensation to volunteers who are serving for, you know, and just as an honorarium. If that were the only words that were said, it sounds like you might would have, I don't know if you'd have been okay with it still, but when it's stated we want to do this to provide more diversity, we want to provide compensation to help people who, you know, maybe can't afford it, you know, it gives them an opportunity to work and still do this. Is that a good understanding of what you're sharing? Yeah, I would say, I mean, I'm not trying to sit here and say we need more money. I'm just trying to explain or trying to get to a point to, right, does the amount match the rationale for council bringing this up or wanting to have this change in the charter? Okay, all right. Yes, Council Member Bick. I think the amount of compensation that we're talking about to really go what you're talking about, you know, getting a high level of people here, there 's no way we can get there because we're talking about considerably more than what we're talking about. I just can't see that that could ever be accepted by people or probably anybody on here either. Sure. You know, it depends on what, you know, why are we doing this? What is it going to do? Okay. You know, because I think you look around at this council, is there anybody on here that would have made any difference if they're getting $750 a month? I don't think so. Yes, Council Member Gregory. I think that's a good point. Brian, could you put that charge up there, the wording? I think what I'm hearing Council Member Briggs say is if we 're wanting to do this in order to make it more affordable for people that might not be able to be on council to be on council, that we ought to have it a higher amount. I get that. And we could change those numbers to make it that way. If I were to change, and again, I said I would be reluctant to do it, but if I was going to change the numbers, so if it goes from $750 a month to $ 1,000 or $1,500 for the mayor or something like that, then if I change the numbers, I would want to change the last Senate Senate paragraph that says these initial amounts shall become effective on ratification of this charter provision. Because if we're increasing those numbers, we're increasing money that's going to us. And so I would change the last Senate to say these initial amounts shall become effective upon the departure of the current council members. Because we're not doing this for us. We're doing this for a different purpose. So I would just say if we changed that amount from what the committee suggested, that we change the effective date of when it comes into effect. Why am I, what is so funny that I'm saying? You said we're not doing it for ourselves. I said speak for yourself. I'm just kidding. Okay. Mayor Proctor. I believe it's already in state law that if there is a change to compensation, it doesn't go into effect until the following election. And attorney- That's not what that charter says. I know, but it's state law. So it would be, as I understand it, there's a state provision that allows that. So we couldn't, this would not apply to this council. But what if you got reelected though? If you're saying- If you're reelected, it goes to the next election. Right, right. Yes. Yeah. Which I mean, I don't necessarily have an issue. I mean, if you're talking about changing the numbers dramatically, because I will tell you, if the purpose is to allow this to be a place where people who would replace their job to come here and it would provide them with a living wage to serve on council. I mean, that's what I'm hearing. I mean, if we're saying we want more diversity, I don't know if, I mean, I don't, unless you can come up with a number that says, well, I don't know how you make that decision. But I mean, I know that some councils, they do pay them and that is their full-time job. So if it's just a matter of numbers and an actual amount, then we do need to have an understanding of what is the policy behind this request. And so, yes, Council Member Duff. Yeah, I kind of look at this as kind of a starting place, you know, for giving some compensation. And if you look at where Denton is going to be three, five, ten years from now, it's going to be a much bigger city and very likely, you know, that may need to increase later on. But I think it's just a starting point and it wouldn't be for this council anyway. I wouldn't be for that at all. It'd have to be after the next election. Council Member Pro Tem. Sorry to be a microphone hog today. I just feel passionately about these particular issues today. I feel like maybe every day anyway. I just want to point out that the county commissioners oversee a budget of about $270 million, if I remember correctly. They're compensated at around $120,000 a year at my last -- I think that's correct. It might be $110,000 a year. Each? Yes, each. Yes. So, you know, I really appreciate the idea that we have to sell this to the public. It has to be something that the public wants to do and their understanding of what it is their elected officials do. It's a sea change about how you view the job of an elected official and what the responsibility is. Because I know a lot of people would be happy for council to stay as is and have it kind of be this volunteer gig and ribbon cutting and digging things. But the reality is we have several large enterprise funds and utilities that we oversee here to the tune of approximately $1 billion of budget. And it requires a level of oversight that a lot of other organizations don't necessarily need. And so I would say, you know, let the public decide if they want to make it a living wage, if they want people -- a different category of people. Fully appreciating what you said, Councilman Duff, about, you know, none of us -- for us, it wouldn't -- $750 wouldn't make a difference. But that kind of proves my point, which is we don't want everybody that's here to be the same people that are here all the time. We want new types of people. And by design, their voices are not going to be present right now because of the situation that we have. So I'd say just like let's let it go to the public. Honestly, if they like it, they can vote for it. If they don't, then we don't do it and we just continue as we're going. Well, I understand that. I guess we still eventually have to put a number in there. And that's -- I don't think we do. Some cities just say it will be set by the council, you know. And if that's the case, then you have the Guam legislature situation. That's it. Yep. Okay. Yeah, I got you. Catherine? I did the math on it. And the $750 and $1,000 would be 19% and 25% of the median income. So if we set those -- what I'm looking at is, you know, our charter was written in 1959. This will only be the sixth amendment to that charter. So this doesn't change that often. And just getting paid for counseling to begin with is going to be something hard for the citizens to bite on. But if you put it in there as percentage, in 30 years from now, that percentage will still relate to something -- in 1959, $750 and $1,000 was a lot of money. So to put this in a permanent document with dollar amounts to me doesn't make sense as much as putting it with a percentage of a median. And that percentage is what can be changed over time through another vote down the road if it all seems to be working well and we need to engage more people by going to a 50% level or maybe even equal to the median income or something of that sort that that can go before the voters. But just -- I think it's about a 50/50 on the citizens as to how they will decide on whether the council should be paid or not. Well, and it seems like to me that we've got two defined issues for discussion for staff direction come July 18th. One is -- first is do we leave the amount and the percentages and everything open ended, just put the -- in the charter that there will be some kind of compensation. And then you take care of it at an ordinance level, which is what I think you were suggesting, Mayor Cotten. And then the other is do we use a percentage, do we use a number? And then the last one is we just take it all out. It sounds like we're wanting to let the voters decide. So, yes, Mayor -- Council Member Briggs. >> So on that note, on the recall, we used what is like communities. And I do remember Mr. Moore saying that they looked at some other communities on this. And if staff could bring back for our discussion those communities or different communities our size and if they have it, what their language is and how they -- just a little bit more about the process that they do and what cities our size and not necessarily just in Texas per se. >> Council Member Husserlund. >> Thank you, Mayor. Just -- I just want to state my -- I just don't like comparing other communities and across at any -- I mean, I understand, hey, I grabbed this language for a different community, but just the flat out comparison, I just -- running objection to all that because I just don't -- I don't think -- you can't line up the scenarios well enough. Well, they have energy company, but they're over here. And they don't have energy company, but they're close to us . And they have this many people, but the dynamics are different. I mean, it just -- I think we need to do what's best for Denton and be able to justify that based on Denton statistics. I think we have a legacy of data that would support any decision we make, what happened and then go compare where they fall on I-35 and what the tropical weather is there. I mean, it just -- it gets so -- you get so far in the weeds, it's just, hey, let's look at Denton data and figure out what's best for Denton and move forward and ignore everyone else. That's my personal opinion, just running. So I don't have to say it twice. >> Sure. And I agree with that in principle because I think sometimes it's just very difficult. Even like with the county commissioners example, they're really full-time employees. I mean, they are managers. They manage departments. They hire and fire. And so they have a different level of authority over their budget. We have the oversight authority. They actually have to manage that as if they were an employee. So yes. >> Just to clarify, the charter committee used like cities. And I would like to see what those were in their determination. >> 100% with you. >> I guess you all didn't hear me. I objected Ben as well. I wasn't hearing you. >> Yes. Yes. Councilmember Craig. >> If Councilmember Briggs wants to see the material, staff can provide it. And if there are others of us that want to ignore it, we can do that. >> Okay. I think that was the end of our issue. So I'm not sure that we had consensus except on one or two of those. But we narrowed the focus of the discussion. And so I think that will be very helpful on July the 18th. Let's go ahead and take a five or ten minute break. We'll pick back up. We'll stand adjourned for five or ten minutes. Meeting of the Denton City Council, Tuesday, June 27th, 2017. It is 2/27. Moving back to the original order of our work session reports, we'll go on to agenda item 2A, which is receive a report and hold a discussion, receive departmental presentations, preparation for the FY 2017-18 proposed budget. >> Thank you, Mayor. We've got a number of departments today that Director Nelson is responsible for. So he will kick off the presentation on the transportation airport side. >> Great. Thank you, Mr. Holman, Mayor, members of council. At this point in time, I'd like to welcome Julie Anderson up, who's our bike and pedestrian coordinator, request that each of the division managers have an opportunity to present their respective budgets to you. >> Okay. Good afternoon, everybody. As Mark stated, I'm Julie Anderson, the bike ped coordinator. This is our budget presentation. So some of our goals from this past year are just a few of them. We've been a part of the bicycle and pedestrian advisory committee for COG since I've been here. This year they asked me to be the vice chair, so I'll be the vice chair of the bike ped advisory committee. We actually also this year actually also received funding through a transportation alternative set-aside program from COG for active transportation and safe routes to school. So we submitted three applications. We ranked very well on all three of them, and we were funded for all three of them. So those are 80/20 reimbursements. We've also been working with Texas to coordinate on including a 10-foot multi-use path on U.S. 380. So Texas has plans to widen 380 from the loop to the Denton and Collin County line. We worked with them to get a side path from May Hill all the way to the green belt right there. That's part of our bike plan. We actually just found out yesterday that the amount of money we have to contribute to that is actually $133,000 less than we initially thought . So we're going to get a $760,000 project for just about $98 ,000 on our end. So we were pretty pleased with that news yesterday. Some of our - do you have a question? Yes, ma'am. Yeah. So all total, how much money does that represent for that plus the other grants that we've received? I want to say it's maybe $2 million, a little over $2 million, with both of them - the active transportation and the two safe routes to school and the side paths. Okay. Thank you. You are very welcome. Our goals for '17-'18, we do would like to achieve a bicycle-friendly designation from the League of American Bicyclists. We'd like to do an update to our current bike plan. That'll lead us to fulfilling our strategic plan, which is increasing our active transportation mode share from 4.7% to 7%. We want to continue to expand on all the partnerships we've created so far with Denton County, DCTA, and TechStock for mobility enhancements. We worked with DCTA at the start of this past school year to provide bike and safety information to all the DCTA students - I'm sorry, DISD students. We worked with DCTA on busing students. We're working with TechStock on the 380 project. So we just want to keep working with them and bringing more notoriety to Denton and what we're doing in the region. Some of our performance measures - this is coming from our strategic plan. As you can see, most of them we're doing pretty well on, and we think we'll hit most of them by the end of the year, end of the fiscal year. We do a lot of promotional events. We just had Bike Month cycle with the city, bicycle to recycle. We do that with the solid waste department. I do a lot of bike safety presentations at the elementary school, so I've been to seven schools this year already. Sometimes it's the entire school, sometimes it's just second grade or third grade, but those are always really fun. And our bike infrastructure, we're moving forward with that . We have about six miles. Our goal every year is to do seven. And also building more sidewalks, or at least connecting some of the gaps that we have on our sidewalk network right now. So moving forward with all of those. Here is our budget highlights for this year. You'll see that there's a really big increase from last year to this year. That's mainly because the $200,000 that's been allocated to implement the bike plan, which is $200,000 starting in 2012, that fund used to be funded out of the traffic operations, and this year they decided to transfer that over to the transportation fund. So now it's allocated here, it's not extra money, it's just reallocated money. Moving forward with that, so if anybody has any questions. >> Yeah, two questions on this. Could you explain the operations line and the cost of service line? >> Yes, I can do that. Operations is, let me turn the page. That includes advertising, marketing, our outside contract services, consultant fees, dues and publications, items like that. The biggest item there is our consultant fee for ITS. Oh, and what was the other one, I'm sorry? >> Cost of service. >> That's what we pay to the tech services fund. It's like an internal transfer. >> Can you go to page two, I think was the slide? >> Yes. >> With the goals for the year and accomplishments? >> This one? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay, so as it relates to Text.Turnback on FM428, I noticed that wasn't on next year's list of things. What is the timeline with FM428 sidewalk? So that is the sidewalk from Ryan High School, correct? >> Well, it's more than just the sidewalk. It's like the whole street reconstruction, but there will be a sidewalk component as part of that. I believe they're working towards having the sidewalk built first. That's what I've been told. >> Okay, so is it going to be next year? Just briefly kind of timeline it for me. >> So director of CIP, Galen Gillum, this is his project. We understand right now that they're in the process of finalizing the design build contract on that. And as Julie stated, what they'll be doing is trying to construct the sidewalks in advance of that. I understand that that would start construction later this year. I don't have a specific time on that, council member, but we can certainly get that here before close of business today for you. >> Okay, yeah, I'd just like to know when construction is going to start. >> And actually I didn't notice the typo that's actually 4 26 rather than 428. >> 428 is Sherman Drive. That was my mistake. >> Council member Briggs, do you have a question? >> I was on the McKinney, but my recollection is that the project should be completed by 2020. >> All right. Thank you. >> That's it. We're a pretty small department moving forward. We're making good strides in our bike infrastructure. If anybody has any other questions for me. >> Just one more. The money from this budget has gone in from the 200,000 has gone into establish doing the engineering and the initial painting for some bike lanes in some areas. Now that they're there, and I'm thinking specifically about some of the lanes in front of Strickland middle school and along Windsor Drive. Those lanes are now a couple of years old and the paint is starting to fade. Does the money for restriping, repainting come from this budget or does it come from another budget? >> Usually it's coming from the bike fund budget, the $200, 000. We know we'll reach to a point where the bike fund is not built to maintain the existing infrastructure. So we've asked for extra money to do the repainting markings of the bike infrastructure. >> My comment on that is that I know last year in our budget discussions before you were here, Mr. Manager, that we had some discussions and I think we cut some money out of that I don't know if it was an internal fund for striping or hiring a contractor, but some of the stripes and some of the streets have gotten fairly faded. And that becomes a particular problem at night of visibility and that becomes a real safety problem whether it's a bike lane or whether it's just a regular traffic lane that's not clearly marked. So maybe in a follow-up budget presentation you can share with us a little bit about plans to fortify that effort to make sure that our roads are clearly marked. >> Sure. And I believe in July we'll be discussing supplemental requests with the council and we're going to be recommending two in this particular area. One of them is to do some additional striping and maintenance and the other one is to refresh the bike plan. You know, obviously Julie is making great use of the current master plan and that's evidenced by the grant dollars that are being brought in. So we've got to refresh that plan that not redoing the whole thing but refreshing some of that plan so she's got additional projects to work on to try to leverage additional grant dollars. But we'll be talking about both of those supplementals with you in the next month or so. >> And as you do that, I know that sometimes there's different types of striping material that cost more up front but the lifespan is significantly longer so that it's probably on a year-to-year basis. So be curious about that also. >> Sure. >> Councilmember Griggs. >> Could you go back to the budget numbers? I just have a couple questions. Maintenance in '14-'15 was 3,000 which is not a large amount but it did decrease significantly to like just 300. What is that and why did it decrease so much? >> Right. The maintenance in '14-'15 that was for furniture and fi xtures and I was hired that year so I must have been-- I imagine it was to give me furniture for my office. >> Okay. >> It's just Mark and I so we're not really buying a lot of furniture. That's why it's so low right now. >> Okay. And my other question is talking about restriping and on Windsor there are some spots who, you know, that don't have stripes because certain roadwork has been redone so it's like striped and then not striped and then striped its patches but it's my understanding that eventually Windsor is scheduled to be redone and so talking about stri ping, how long does the striping last and if a road is scheduled to be redone or repaved, will that striping be held off until that's completed or will it go ahead and do stripe it ? I'm just trying to see the-- >> Right, yeah. >> The timing. >> So sometimes depending on how far out the construction is, we'll wait. If it's coming up kind of soon but we don't want to not have anything striped there, we'll do use paint. So a good example is Hinkle Drive. Hinkle Drive hasn't been repainted in a very long time. There's a drainage project coming through where the street 's going to be redone. We've decided that we're just going to go ahead and do it with paint. Painting doesn't last nearly as long and it's a lot cheaper than thermoplastic and so we're going to paint that for now so it'll last for a year until they come in to redo the road. So usually it just depends on how soon is the construction going to happen, if it's still two years out, should we paint it? If it's closer than that, then we'll just sort of wait it out. Thermoplastic lasts longer, more expensive so you don't want to put it down if the road's going to get tore up again. >> So you do a lot of coordination with other department streets. >> Correct, yeah, I work with Noreen and we work closely with our streets department and any other engineering projects and drainage projects to make sure we're not re-striping something that's going to get tore up. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Councilman Wright. >> Thank you. On your goals for '17-'18, you've got to attain bicycle friendly community designation from League of American Bicyclists. What's involved in that and is that anything that will be coming before council to help with rules and regulations? >> Right, so it's really an application to the League of American Bicyclists. They've had this program in place since I think about the ' 80s. We did apply for it last year. It's a designation that you can get bronze, silver, gold, or platinum. We got honorable mention last year. So they have two cycles each year, one in August and one in February when you can apply. So we'll apply again either this August or in February. It's an application of how much infrastructure do you have, what are the laws you have in place that help bicyclists, essentially the five E's of bicycle design. So engineering, education, enforcement, evaluation. I always forget the last one. >> Encouragement. >> Encouragement, thank you. Yes. >> Thank you. >> Yes. >> Thanks. >> Councilmember Briggs brought up an item that reminded me , in our last CIP for roads, it stated in there that as roads were rebuilt that the cost for re-striping and re-striping bike lanes was part of the CIP and not part of this budget. >> And if that's different, if somebody could just let us know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Any other questions? Well first of all, I want to say, not first of all, just I want to say congratulations on the grant. >> Oh yeah, thank you. We're very excited. >> I think that's huge. I mean that's, what was it, 1.5 million? >> 1.5 for the two transportation alternatives, yeah, 1.5. >> No, I think that's wonderful. That shows some hard work and dedication, so I really do appreciate that. That's going to go a long way to providing some safe transportation to children that, I mean we struggle with that, and so I appreciate that. Very, very well done. >> Great, thank you. >> You're welcome. Any other questions, comments? All right, thank you very much. >> Thanks. >> All right, we'll move on to agenda, no we're not, I'm sorry, Freud didn't slip. We got more budget presentations. I better pull the meditator up. [ Inaudible ] >> Well, good afternoon, I'm Dean Hartley, I'm the facilities manager. I was asked to give a very brief presentation of the facilities budget today. We're basically staying from last year to this year, stagn ant on our FTEs, no changes in that area. You can kind of see how they're broken out. We have maintenance division, we have construction division , and of course the administrative. [ Inaudible ] >> Again, this is just a breakdown of our, actually our breakdown of our department. Again, you can see that there's two divisions of it, mainly in construction and our maintenance. >> So these are the individuals that if lights are out or if the air conditioner is not working or a door is falling off or they're stopped up, I mean, they take care of all the facility and maintenance needs of the facilities for the city of Dent. >> Yes, sir. >> That's great. >> We do every piece of it. We have three licensed HVAC guys on staff right now. So they take, that division takes care of everything. The construction is your CIP, your projects, your fire station builds, your large projects, some of the stuff we've acquired from parks as far as their CIP projects that's come on board. >> Okay. >> Again, these just outline some of our accomplishments, construction of fire station two, the airport hangers, Medicaid, we've got it in place. We've had several just small renovations in some areas. Our facilities maintenance program is the CIP program that we're funded for, and that's actually we project that out into five and ten year incre ments. And it's your HVAC, your flooring and your roof repl acements. So it's major components within the facilities that we try to project out and we refine those every year before budget as whether those priorities have changed. Just because the roof says it had a ten, 20 year life, but because of our maintenance on it, we're going to get five or six more years out of it, then we're not just going to change it out for that reason. Of course, one big one was the demolition of the building next door. So we've completed that this year and we've completed the facilities master plan. And that was where council asked us to come back and have the 2002 HOK plan just reevaluated and updated. And that's to the point we're at today, is we do have that in our hands and it has been updated. Will we see that? Is there a presentation on the facilities? We updated it. Is that something that eventually council or is it I'm just curious because So as we go through the budget process, we were working to identify a date here within the next six weeks to bring that back back in front of council after we kind of work through some of the budgetary issues. Thank you. Of course, our goals for next year, simply to continue the rebuild, the planning and the rebuild on the new fire stations that we've got geared up that are coming on. We've got the burn tire, which is going on out at fire station seven for their training facilities. And of course, we're going to continue to move our facilities maintenance program through there. A lot of the goals when we looked at our budget this year, it did not include the park CIP that we've now taken on responsibilities for. So you're going to start seeing some probably like the wave pool. We've got that the big ticket items, the spray park over at Carl Young Park and the firefighters memorial. So all of those are just going to come around and you'll start seeing them incorporated into the facilities side of it. One of the ones that's not on your radar yet and we're just now, it's kind of coming in a little late. American Legion, which is your initial building that was out there, the oldest one, it's actually got some structural issues. Parks is going to be bringing forward a supplemental when y 'all see their presentation. I think Mark said it's on July the 18th, but they're actually going to be bringing a supplemental that'll be either repair or replacement. So y'all be seeing some cost and things on it is how we move forward. Again, it's not on the radar yet, but already it is. It's just hasn't landed yet. And land. Our current performance measures, of course, are work orders that we actually produce. That was our current one, our proposed are the percentage of work orders that we're going to complete in five days. The projects, the number of active projects that are actually on the books that we're working that year. So that's going to be a performance measure. The square footage maintained by facilities versus industry standards. And of course, our preventative maintenance, which is designed to prolong the life of our major components. Just kind of a list and kind of our thought process is our cost containment strategies. We've done several RFPs for local trades to incorporate our local vendors in town. And we have those in place, which now allows that the bidding's already been done. So we don't have to get those three quotes for every piece of stuff that we put out there. So it's an efficiency and it's a time savings because that 's come back in as an hourly rate and they can only give us a certain percent markup on parts , our subcontractors. So we're moving through with those. That's been a great thing. Of course, our preventative maintenance program, you know, increasing the life of our equipment. We think that's a cost saving strategy and we stay with that. One of the things that we might look at and we already have is in the process improvements, you're looking at possibly we want to contract some engineering services. You are probably aware that anything over $20,000 that Architectural Engineering Act kicks in and we have to have that stuff with an engineered stamp. It can be as simple as the security fence we just did behind the police over on at City Hall West had to be engineered because of the dollar amount . So we would like to try to outsource some of that and then possibly come back at a later date if that's something that we want to think we have justification for staff. Just side note, that fence is outstanding. Very well done. Looks fantastic. Thank you. Yes, sir. So on the engineer, do we have an engineering department and why couldn't that be someone from our own engineering department? It probably could. It would tax their load of the stuff that they've already got out there. So that's kind of the reason we were looking at the resources of just trying to contract it out and maybe make it a part of the cost of that job versus trying to utilize staff time that's already there. So it would be an engineer specific to your department and not within the engineering department? Yes. That's what we were hopeful of. Okay. Thank you. Does the Architectural Engineering Act, is that a state law , federal law, what is that? State. And is that applied just to municipalities? Does that apply to every project? I mean, I don't remember getting, I mean, so if I'm building a fence that's over $25,000 in the city, I have to have it stand for the, with an engineer? No, that's a law that applies to governmental entities. Okay. Only. Okay. I didn't think that sounded familiar. Okay. Good. All right. Yeah. This is our budget expenditure highlights. Not much different in the budget from last year and where a baseline falls out this year. The difference is actually our acquisition of the parks items that were coming over CIPs. So that's about the only change. We had a little bit that was added in there for maintenance of the developmental services structure. Yep. That we have. So that changed a little bit. Yep. I wrapped it up. Questions? Comments? Questions? Developmental services. Is that the DATCU building? Yes. So, okay. Thank you. Any other questions? All right. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. I think you could add more questions for Dean. He's pretty good at answering that stuff. Let me see if I can. I'm just still impressed when Brandon walked up to him so quickly to fix this slide that, you know, police officers coming straight towards him, he didn't flinch or anything. It was like you were used to having police approach you at that kind of a pace. My name is Terry Kader. I'm the fleet services superintendent and I'd like to talk to you a little bit about fleet briefly this morning. Fleet services is responsible for maintaining and repairing approximately 1185 vehicles as of this morning. Those are active vehicles in the fleet with an acquired cost or value of $85 million. How we do that is primarily through our administrative light duty, heavy duty and field service technicians. This chart kind of shows you the breakdown. We currently have 23 full-time employees and, you know, the main takeaway from this is that our technician ratio really depends on the amount of equipment that we have in the fleet to maintain. So we actively look at the number of vehicles in the class and the type of repairs that we have to make in the fleet to be sure that we can stay on top of having enough FTEs to repair and maintain the customer service levels that we do. Let's go the right way here. So this is an order chart of the proposed budget for this year. The -- I do want to point out that we do have the parts room listed on the order chart here. Those four individuals under the genuine parts company, that's a contract that we have that supplies parts for our operation. They're not city employees, but I want to be sure that, you know, they're a very important part of our team and we work with them daily. So I do want to include them in here. But it's a breakdown. We have 17 technicians, six administrative folks, and myself to handle the chores there. So our goals and accomplishments. I think a big one this year was the green fleet policy, which was adopted in February. I think that's going to go a long ways to helping us maintain the proper mix in the fleet of alternative fuel vehicles as well as hybrids and that kind of thing, electric vehicles. I'm looking forward to getting that committee up this summer and that will go into effect when we start looking at the vehicles that will be replaced in the fall. The other thing I wanted to point out on here is that this year we applied for a couple of awards. One was 100 Best Fleets in 2017 through Governing Magazine. The other was Leading Fleets Award that's handled by Gover ning Fleet Magazine. I'm very proud that we were able to be ranked 36th in the 100 Best Fleets. We did make the top 50 in the Government Fleet Magazine's ranking. However, they only ranked the top 20. So we're somewhere between 20 and 50. I'd like to think we're 21st. But I know Mr. Holloman probably gave me a little grief on this. But I want to let you know that the judging is based on accountability, use of technology, collaboration, creativity, celebration, evidence of a high trust culture, performance recognition, doing it right the first time, quick turnaround time, staff development and resource stewardship. So the application that we submit, we have to give some of our performance measures, where we stand in those, and also tell about the programs that we have in place. So not that we -- could we ever be first? It's possible but not likely because there are over 150 fle ets that apply for this nationwide. Can we be 35th? Possible and likely or better. So our goal is to improve every year. We may never be first in my lifetime, but I'm proud that we were named in the top 50 and the top 36. So for goals coming up, I think I want to take a look at the last one, their initiate construction of a satellite repair facility. We've just about used all of our space that we have available in our current shop. We just have one shop to maintain that fleet of almost 1, 200 vehicles. And so we've been working with the facilities and with the solid waste folks pretty closely to try to develop a plan for building a satellite shop that would relocate some of the solid waste heavy trucks to their facility. It would save a lot on transport cost. It would save a lot of traffic, heavy truck traffic around the neighborhood for the central fleet facility. And it would free up a lot of space in our shop. So that's going to help really all of our customers. And we hope to get that initiated and construction started early next year. Our performance measures, we currently on a monthly basis look at these measures here. The numbers out to the right indicate our target, our goals for each of those measurements. We publish a dashboard every month that actually gives our actuals compared with the targets. So we use that dashboard to take a look at the things that we're doing right and try to continue that. Look at the things that we can improve in and try to look at the efficiencies and see where we can make improvements. So. Council Member Riggs, question? On the vehicle idle reduction, don't we have an ordinance in place currently? Or do we have something in regards to that? Well that's part of the green fleet policy that was enacted in February. So there is some incentive there to reduce that. And that's why that's one of the proposed measures because that policy wasn't in place. Now we do have an ordinance for non-city vehicles for City of Denton within the city. But this is actually for city fleet vehicles. So yeah, we're going to look at trying to reduce waste idle time. Waste idle being anytime the engine is idling with a vehicle in park as shown by the engine ECM. We know we can make some big improvements there. It's going to save fuel. It's going to be better for the environment. Just a real question of curiosity because you see, not city vehicles necessarily, but you see people who have diesels will, when they park them, if they're going to get out and run in and do something, they'll just leave them running. Because I've heard that it's more efficient to leave them running instead of turning them off and restarting them. But what is that benchmark of once you cross over, is it excluding the idle ordinance, but is it a minute? Is it two minutes? Is it just depend on the engine? That's pretty much old school thought process there. Yes, sir, with the new technology. I'm just kidding. That's okay. I am old. No, I'm just giving you our... I'm right there with you. But that is, the new technology allows you to turn the engine off, restart it. It's all fuel injected, so there's no waste. It's not like you're squirting a half a quart of fuel in with a double-port. So if you see that happening in newer vehicles, it's just because that's somebody who just decided not to turn it off. It's not for any other reason. The warm-up time is cool off. The only thing to that is a cool-off on a diesel. You don't want to just pull up on a diesel turbocharged engine and just shut it off. So there is a little bit of a cool-down process. Okay. Let's start up. Okay, great. Thanks. Our cost-containment strategies, we've got four in place that we've employed this year, and I'd kind of like to... The first four there, I'd kind of like to focus on the interlocal agreement that we have with the Texas Department of Public Safety. It's kind of an innovative idea where we partnered with them. They actually came to us and they said, "You guys, one of your core functions is to repair police vehicles, and we have police vehicles, but we have no shop in your area. Can you help us out?" So we do that. Of course, city vehicles take priority, but that kind of fills in a little bit of the downtime if there is any. And it started out pretty slow. It's kind of in its infancy. We started back in October. The agreement could net us up to $50,000 annually. Per the agreement, we're probably standing right about $12, 000 or $13,000 so far this year from that. And then the last one there is actually something we're looking at next year if we get the additional field service technician that we're looking at and bringing some of the outsourced work back inside, being able to handle the extra workload. So, our cost containment -- I'm sorry, our process improvements. We've done a number of processes already and made pretty good strides. Basically, we're looking at efficiencies, productivity, and customer service when we go through our processes. Those are the three things that we're trying to identify and get better at. And in the future, even though we've already hit some things in these, we're working on making the auction better. The acquisition process, we've already made great strides there, but we still feel there's some extra room that we can improve. And certainly in the whole vehicle and equipment repair process from the time a customer drops it off until it's ready for pickup. We're trying to make that as easy for the customer and as quick as we can for the customer. Here's the budget highlights for expenditures. I wanted to point out a couple things here. Our proposed budget for personal services. That does include the additional technician that we're going to ask for, so there's a little increase there. The materials and supplies, part of that increase does apply to that additional person as well because there are some tools and benefits that that individual get. We did break out the fuel separately on this sheet so you can see exactly what we spend in fuel. We do anticipate a little bit of an increase, about 200,000 . That is just an increase in what we budgeted for cost that we think the cost might go up We still think it's going to remain pretty steady for the year but there will be a slight increase we think. And the other that, the other 200,000 is that our fleet size has increased and we've got some classes of vehicles that we've purchased recently that are going to use some fuel, particularly out at the landfill. Also the fuel contingency line, the fuel contingency is a number that we add into the budget, it's $25 million and it basically gives us the authority to purchase fuel in the case of an emergency or if there were a big spike in prices. I mean back in, I think it was 2010, 9/10 or 11, somewhere in there, we were below $2 a gallon, fuel went above $3 a gallon, that was a big hit. So this gives us that spending authority. You can see the actuals from '14/'15, '15/'16, we didn't use it and more likely we won't use it this year. But it is in that budget and that's why that 10.1 kind of stands out above the 9. If you subtract that out, we're staying about 9.5 average across and the same thing this year, it does spike in a little bit. Couple questions, Council Member Briggs and then Council Member Gregory. So on the fuel purchased, with the amount of vehicles we have, from my math I think it's about close to $2,400 right a year per vehicle probably or a little bit more? If you're going to average it, probably yeah. But the, I think the thing you've got to think of, our vehicles are a lot of different classes so there's a lot of different range of vehicles and a lot of different miles per gallon so to kind of average it. So I do know that we have natural gas or we have installed there in different areas and that we use that to fill up. Is there a breakdown of the amount we spend on the different types of gas that we're using somewhere or is it just all lumped in? No, no I have it broken down by, not by class but I do have it broken down by fuel type, yes. So I don't have the cost actually but I have the quantities of fuel dispensed. The cost of course varies up and down but unleaded we disp ense about $1.1 million annually. Diesel 280, no I'm sorry the 1.1 is the total but unleaded is 280,000. Diesel about the same, E85 30,000 gallons, biodiesel 450, 000 gallons. I don't have the breakdown on the CNG just yet those numbers since we don't handle the CNG through fleet that's done through solid waste I don't always get those numbers. I can get that for you though. Okay thank you. Last year one of the discussions that we had spent a good bit of time on was replacement vehicles either through cash or through our bond program. I don't see any vehicle replacement in there or do I, is there a line for that under the fleet service? That's not included in this particular budget. Who would define that? We include that, I'm sorry we include that in the capital budget for the general fund vehicles it's done by debt for the utility funds it's done in their capital budget and some of the utility funds are out of cash and some of it's debt funded but all of that vehicle replacement is within the capital budget so it's not in their operating budget. Even the even cash purchases? Yes it's just cash you're purchasing capital through the capital budget but it's just cash versus debt issuance a lot of the utilities cash fund not only their vehicles but cash funds some of their replacement of assets and that's shown in the capital budget. So that's in their individual budgets not in the fleet. There's a section. This is a servicing not purchasing. Yes correct correct and there's a whole section of the budget that's the capital budget that we lay out by general and each utility and it lists debt funded as well as cash funded. Chuck, Mayor Pro Tem has a question. So the fuel contingency what happens to it if the unused portion each year? It just goes unspent. They're an internal service fund so fuel they purchase the fuel and then they resell it to each department so everyone that fuels has a fuel card so you know how much each vehicle is purchasing they can track that and it's charged back to each department so the fueling of police vehicles is charged back to the police department. So again I guess I don't understand it if let's say last year they used 250,000 of the contingency there's a million remaining in that line item that money just stays in general fund then because they're internal services? No it's just unspent budget authority. So does it carry over? Well it's not funds it's just budgetary authority. There's an offsetting revenue and expense in the internal service fund so if the gas is not purchased and the gas is not sold their revenues are less and their expenses are less. It would just be if the price of gas spiked up they would spend more for the purchase of that gas and their incoming revenue from departments would be higher. Okay thank you. And we would typically ask your authority each year during the budget process to approve that. The practical purpose of it is it avoids emergency resolution every time you exceed a fuel pricing so it's just more efficient use of your time if it's not spent it goes away and then we'll ask for that authority in the next budget year. I do have a question you had mentioned I think 450,000 gallons of biodiesel? I know we used to have a biodiesel plant I know we're not getting it from there we're getting it from there? Where are we getting the biodiesel from? It's currently purchased through our fuel vendor. Okay so it's just a fuel purchase like anything else. And it's a blend it's not a hundred percent biodiesel we're using a B-20 blend out at the landfill for all the equipment out there. And the rest of the city is on a B-5 blend. So it's it saves a little bit of money because there's some tax incentives with using biodiesel but it's really good fuel. Okay great all right. Yeah that's me that's it. Yes Councilmember Hussbett. Thank you Mayor. I think I was following you right the the after you're finished with the vehicles they go to auction? That's correct. Each year we actually acquire and decommission and dispose of approximately eight to ten percent of the fleet. So it can be anywhere from 80 to 100 vehicles annually. Wow. So I mean and how does so if you're purchasing new vehicles they come with some level of warranty what is your what is your do you have a target range in there that you expect when you're you're purchasing? As far as as far as warranty mileage some you know there's there's variation so do you have a floor that you require? It does vary by class and usually if we go out for bid we 'll include that as part of our bid document. We'll ask for what the warranty period is and so for instance the OEM warranty is typically 36,000 miles three years. Now some of the manufacturers have upped that to 50,000 five years and the heavy equipment heavy trucks are basically one year on that with unlimited mileage and it really just depends on the engine transmission package that we spec. So it's all different levels but we try to take as much advantage of that as possible. Okay and if I may. Sure. Thank you. And I saw NAPA parts how does that I'm just trying to get up to speed on how that agreement works so they do they show you their cost and there's a there's a there's then there's a percentage mark up across the board type thing? That's exactly right. We we purchase at their cost from them they mark it up 10% so so it's an actual on-site NAPA store basically for city for our department use only but that way we have zero cost in inventory so they they keep approximately I think right now it's about seven hundred fifty thousand dollars in inventory. And for a municipality is it the same offers a lot of parts are going to lifetime warranties where you and I'm assuming you have some mechanism to track that and then just get those at no cost? That's actually another advantage because they warrant the part on the spot so yeah if we have a defective part we we get a new input on turn it in at no charge. Thank you. Appreciate it. Any other questions? I just want to say that the last presentation of facilities management in this one the groups that you guys run and your staff they're the ones that really aren't seen you know you've got your code enforcement you've got your public safety you 've got all these that we typically see but when I think about what you all do managing every maintaining every building in this in this city that city owned and maintaining every vehicle that's huge that's I mean when you say we got eighty five million dollars worth of vehicles so yeoman's work thank you it I mean we don't hear about problems we don't hear about things and that's a that's a lot of work just real quick question on the warranty just it's spurred this question so let's say we buy I don't know a Chevrolet truck and you got the three year thirty six so if there's a warranty issue we don't take care of it they we deliver to the dealership we bought from and they take care of it or it's correct okay or a dealership doesn't have to be the one we want it from but a local dealership okay great fantastic all right any other questions comments thank you so much appreciate it thank you for your time last but not least we'll go in alphabetical order in reverse here right so my name is Mark Nelson transportation director for city of Denton here within the last three to five four months picked up the airport at one point in time I had the airport that reported to me and so back again with the airport and glad to be a part of that operation so real quick with the general overview of the airport we have about 350 based aircraft at that at that airport fiscal year 15 15 16 we had about a hundred and forty two thousand operations what's an operation landing and a takeoff that would be two operations so whether you're landing or taking off that's considered an operation so the Denton Airport is one of eleven reliever airports around the DFW metro area and so some of those other airports that you may be familiar with Alliance Fort Worth Arlington Municipal Addison McKinney so in fact we're actually busier than all of those of those airports were second busiest general aviation reliever airport in the state of Texas so quite a bit of operation going on out there we've got over 30 businesses based there like I said about 350 based aircraft and roughly about 450 is the employment base out there as we understand so you know most of the operations that we see out there are aircraft less than a hundred thousand pounds that's essentially what our runway is rated for is a hundred thousand pounds from time to time we'll see some heavier cargo aircraft some early venue 737s which is what Southwest flies for cargo operations or old DC nines which are in the hundred and twenty thousand range but you can you can service those on a minimal basis long as you don't have those more than 500 a year you're not damaging your pavement but anyway that's that's kind of just to the operation out there supporting corporate aviation recreational aviation and certainly our flight school has a sizable business out there so this is our overview in terms of our our employees with me coming back out to the airport note that in the administration we dropped down one position there as well as on the operation side so we moved from seven and a half we had an intern as well as the aviation directors and so now we're down to six FTs out at the airport this gives you another snapshot of what what we look like out there I do want to recognize Scott Gray our new airport manager has been here for just just under 30 days now so kind of knee-deep into it now and hopefully taking the taking the reins here and going in a new direction so some of the goals and accomplishments we have out the airport I do want to highlight the fact that we did complete the the city own hangars 27 individual hangars out there that will help us with our finances in terms of generating revenue for us also meet tomorrow with text out aviation to finalize our our plans for that west runway which will help with our capacity out at the airport again mention the fact that we are a single runway configuration airport so those hundred and forty some thousand operations I can get a little bit of congestion on the primary runway so that west runway will be a great accomplishment for us in terms of improving capacity as well safety goals for 17 18 certainly enhancing our our revenue options part of that if you slide down to the bottom they're looking at revising and updating our business plan we had a 2010 business plan that we would like to dust off and make some some enhancements improvements to that course with Scott gray coming on board he's got some private consulting experience in the aviation industry so I think that'll be quite helpful in terms of moving us toward that and then obviously the completion of that west runway trying to get that completed in the summer of next year so we can move on and start process design construction of the this item for here which is maintaining or doing some needed maintenance work on the primary runway some of our performance measures we talked a little bit about airport operations again we're looking at hundred and forty two thousand we may slip a little bit this year maybe a little south of a hundred and forty thousand and a hundred and thirty five hundred and thirty eight thousand operation but nonetheless still sizable operation another item I'd like to highlight would be the acres that's maintained we're over a thousand acres out there but we have to maintain about four hundred and thirty four of those acres whether that's grounds maintenance up on what we call the land side so drive access street side as you approach into the street side of the airfield but then on the infield areas where we have to maintain certain level of height with the grass to bait wildlife anything from rats and other rodents that attract birds which are not very healthy out of the airfield so again about four hundred and thirty four acres that we have to maintain of course we have A B C maintenance schedules on those and then we do some of our airport inspections we've got roughly we do safety and operational inspections on a daily basis whether that's going out taking a look at the pavement to ensure that we don't have any type of foreign objects out there to doing security perimeter checks around throughout the airfield. So some of the things that we've done here this year is with the restructuring of the aviation director and pulling me back over the airport and restructuring where the operations manager was and pull that up to the airport manager position we created about a little over eighty thousand dollars and salary savings there. We've also kind of gone through and taken a look at some of the CIP projects that we had that had been scheduled and planned for this FY and next FY and taking a look at those on some needs basis and restructuring that that saved us roughly about two hundred thousand so just kind of scheduling or otherwise delaying some of those projects on an as needed basis. One of the things that we're looking at in terms of process improvement that we've already done is how we quantify our grounds maintenance operations in terms of identifying FTE hours per each activity that we do on the airfield whether it's an A schedule mowing, a B schedule mowing or whatever type of inspections that we may have to actually responding to airfield emergencies. So future projects looking at the private development process I think there's quite a bit of room to improve on that in terms of how we walk a prospective tenant or developer through our development process where we can do some running parallel with our planning department and then just outline what we do internally with them as well and then again I've already mentioned that the CIP development process I think we can improve some of the things that we've been doing here in the past three to five years out there. So this is the overview of the budget. You'll notice first line under personal services from the 2016-17 budget to the 17-18 a reduction in cost there. Some of the other things that may pop out there that third line down under maintenance that's increased a little bit. Again we brought on 27 hangers out at the airfield so this is our first spin through that in terms of maintaining hangers. So we've added a little bit to the maintenance associated with that so got to ensure that the electric openers open those hanger doors and any other type of aspect associated with maintaining those hangers. Then one of the other things you might see is the increase in cost of service again with me moving out to the airport that's a cost of service part of my salary and then some other salaries associated with the city operations. Thank you Mayor. A few years ago there was an effort to take the airport out of the general fund and have it funded solely through the money that it generates by le ases and our return on fuel sold out there. I don't see any indication as to where there's an offset of the proposed budget by the expected revenue. I know you're not prepared for that right now but would that be possible to get an update on where we are on that and how close that is to be a self- sufficient operation? Yes we can certainly do that. I defer to Chuck but my recall when we were reviewing the budget it's roughly $300,000 to $400,000 upside down. The debt service is basically the balancer right now in that fund. Am I pretty close? I think with the proposed budget this year I think we're getting closer than that. The only drawdown is that capital fixed asset is kind of some one-time project so I think we're drawing down on that but in terms of the 16-17 estimate I think we're running pretty close in terms of revenue and expenses. Again we received some the airport received some gas well revenues and those have been declining so a little bit of it depends on the level of those revenues. Well and as we get that report I thought that those gas well royalties were reserved for special projects one-time expenditures so if we could have an explanation of that also. Absolutely. Thank you. Just real quick follow-up on that Chuck sorry I was trying to get to my mic before you got halfway actually I wanted you to get all the way over there to have to walk all the way back. Let me make sure I understood what you said. You said that our revenues are closer to matching our expenses but the expenses do not include the debt service is that correct or they do include the debt service? Not for 16-17 beginning in 16-17 the debt service is being paid out of the tax rate so excluding that. Well you can see in 15-16 it was about $475,000 it's about that. Well that will increase when we sell debt for the our portion of the runway cost. Okay. Yeah I think that would be a good conversation because it was and it was created it was made an enterprise fund with the whole purpose of it being self- funding and I would like if including that report on the hangers I guess they're somewhere up in there but if we could just get a as part of that report if we were to split the hangers out just from a sort of income and expense report a P&O so to speak profit line P&L excuse me. We're renting them for how much they cost us how in other words if we were just using as an investment sort of allocating something to the land the debt service how much it cost to build what our rent is how does that compare because I know there used to be a big push out there to go in that direction as far as a paradigm for airport development I think we've I just would be curious on how the performance looks on that. Yes. And let me make sure nobody else. Yeah no did anybody else have a question? Yeah okay. But one more follow-up on that also is as we're getting that those numbers on the airport it might be helpful if we could capture what we're bringing in total from airport in terms of property taxes and what we're bringing in in terms of sales taxes because I don't know if there's any sales tax other than the fuel tax but if there is. Yeah that'll probably be all included in that. Okay but realize the property taxes from the airport go to the general fund in the debt service fund they're not captured we would just show what they are but it's not going to be a revenue to the airport. I understand that. Okay okay I want to make sure. You know the reason I'm asking is they may be close to what we're you know how do they compare with what we're paying out of the general fund for debt service. Correct. That would be helpful. Correct. Councilmember Hatsbett. Thank you thank you Mayor. I'd like to see kind of in that same line the revenue brought in by US Airways is it do you have that in the US aviation is that right? US aviation group. Thank you sorry. The what they bring in or what that line item looks like I 'm just curious and if we have that carved out and then I'm just from my own edification I know there's there's events held there periodically is that the new kind of manager that would how does a citizen if a citizen wants to book an event there and what's that process? So a private event so I've seen different catering events or different private events held there at the airport and I'm just not sure what that means. So there's a couple of different opportunities in terms of if you're looking for like a larger hanger or meeting space similar to when Congressman Burgess was out there if that's kind of what you want. Yes sir exactly. Actually you would need to work with a particular tenant on the airfield to do those one-off type events. Now in terms of a community event we do have a community room out at the airport that from time to time the different alphabet groups whether it's the EAA which is the Experimental Aircraft Association or the CAP Civil Air Patrol they'll come in and use that boardroom community room from time to time and there's a process in terms of just working with our administrative staff and getting a key and some information transfer some information. Okay if you'd be so kind can you if I could ask you to email me that information? Sure. Thank you. And I did want to make a clarification on the US Aviation Group we can pull that information together but if you recall on your action last week they recently took over the Business Air lease agreement so we'll look at it on a FY last FY fiscal year basis. Well in ox I'm sorry just to pinpoint I'm just curious about the school the training side of things specifically okay of their I forgot the different hats but yes I'm just curious what we realize as a city from the their their training. Okay yeah very well thank you. All right. Well thank you for your time I appreciate it. Oh that's it okay I didn't see them. All right well okay thank you. No I didn't see a slide to say questions that's that's yeah go move move on yes sir. Yes thank you Mark so much. All right we'll move on to our I think that was all the budget presentation is that correct? All right we'll move on to our next item on the agenda which is to be or not to be receive report hold discussion give staff direction regarding City Council committee nominations. Mayor and council in your packet on Friday you had your current committee assignments with the listed vacancies and this evening we'll be going through those lists and see who would like to be on what committee and if you have any questions on them we'll be happy to help you with them I think the easiest way to do this is just start at the top with well the agenda committee doesn't really count because it's by ordinance that it's the mayor and mayor pro tem on that committee but we can start with a council airport committee and just go through all of them and see who might want to be on what and how you want to negotiate that if that's a good procedure for you all. Okay okay that works. Airport committee currently we have two vacancies with Mayor Watts still serving. Mr. Duff has expressed an interest. We're looking for volunteers or whatever okay if you have a committee doctor to sign up on sure yeah okay airport committee airport okay someone else yeah if no one else is wanting to go to the airport I've ranked all of mine so that's that 's a B to me so it's not like to be like to be on it but it's a what it's a B I've got a little graded ABC okay sort of like to be or not to be yeah all right so we'll have um council members Duff Ryan and Mayor Watts yes audit finance currently have uh Mayor pro tem Baguieri and Mayor Watts and woman vacancy. I will fight everyone for this one. Is this your A list? Anybody want to fight him for that? All right. Doesn't look like it. Councilmember Ryan. Committee on citizen engagement currently have Council member Gregory and Briggs and one vacancy. You're gonna fight for it? I'm interested. Oh sorry. Yes I'm interested in that. Yeah. Is that all right? Okay. Committee on the environment we have Councilmember Briggs, Councilmember Gregory and a vacancy. It's a great one. Okay Mayor pro tem. The caper committee we have a Councilmember Gregory and Mayor Watts and a vacancy. Okay Mayor pro tem. Okay. Ethics committee we currently have Councilmember Briggs and two vacancies. Mayor. Yes. I have a question about this. Okay. Um is with the discussion coming up I mean is this something we should put on hold in case we dissolve this committee? Okay. Well I mean yes but we still have I mean currently the current ethics paradigm is what's controlling right now. Okay. If somebody technically had a complaint then it would have to be heard under the current protocol. Okay. So very temporary I'm sure. Councilmember Duff is expressed an interest. In the ethics? Ethics yes. And Hotspeth all right. And I listed the four alternates but those are by ordinance so they'll stay as they are. Okay. The committee or the HOT committee who wants to be on the H OT committee? I think Briggs is going to five for that one. I will allow Councilmember Hotspeth to be on it but yeah you can have it. Okay. As long as you report back to me. Oh. Mobility committee. That's good. I would like to be on mobility I'm on RTC right now. Since you're the primary you can have it. You can go sit in on the meetings if you'd like. Well you could because you'd be in a follow up. They're normally posted. Yeah they're all posted. But is it posted as a full council meeting though? Because you'd have four people there. It's posted as a mobility committee. City attorney. Not posted as a full council meeting. The mayor's correct. Did you doubt it? Yes. When he's sitting there if he doesn't participate then he can observe. That is correct but there's still a quorum there and one of the things this council has put in its handbook of boards and commissions and ethics is that anytime there's more than two council members present at any event to go ahead and post it because of the you never know what might happen in the future is to avoid any potential not only an actual open meeting violation but people raising the issue that there was one when in fact there wasn't. And so that has been standard practice that this council has adopted years ago to do that. I think that comes into that discussion we had earlier about appearance violating laws. Well I guess the question is I mean if it was important for do we have an alternate on that committee? So if somehow one of the we don't have alternates on really hardly any of our council committees. Correct. I just want to make a comment. This committee is about to start getting recorded so that everybody can watch it as well. Currently it's not but we got an email that our next meeting will be televised so that may make a difference for somebody who is wanting to. They could go back and at least see what happened. Is it possible I guess we would have to change by ordinance if we were going to add an alternate to any of the committees? It depends what's in the resolution itself. Most of them don't have alternates built into them. I haven't seen the one that created the mobility committee. It's probably what you said it's just as simple as amending that but since I haven't seen it I'm not 100% certain. I wonder if we're interested enough to do that for this particular committee. Well I think I think if council member Ryan is going to be the alternate for the regional transportation what's the C stand for coalition commission then Regional transportation council. So I would be open to that but I just think it's important that whoever because if Mayor Pro Tem can't make it and council member Ryan goes he just needs to be able to have the ability so my thought was I mean what's the difference in posting it as mobility committee meeting and I mean if you posted it quote unquote as a city council meeting we just oh but that maybe has different implications for the city secretary nevermind. Nevermind. I don't want to attend another meeting. I have my glasses on and I can see that. As an alternate one of the three that are on there they could just notify me if they were going to be on anything I attend. So if you could Mr. City Attorney maybe research what that might entail if it's something real easy then we might get that done. Okay moving on then to your external committees the community justice council is vacant. I'd like that. What is it? Yes what does that entail? Community justice council is it's established per chapter 76 of the Texas government code. It's a prerequisite to establishing a community corrections facility. So it provides policy and guidance and direction for the development of community of criminal justice plans and community correction facilities programs and conditions of community supervision. Okay thank you. So if they want to have a new jail or prison or something here. Okay. Okay. Convention and visitors bureau we have one vacancy currently. We have Mayor Pro Tem and Council Member Gregory. I'd be interested in joining. You want off of that? Yeah I'd like off of that one. If you want off of hop on. So it would be Council Member Hudspeth and Council Member Ryan. Ryan Gregory and Hudspeth. Okay. Dallas Regional Mobility Coalition. Go ahead. Where's our mobility people? Yeah you want. Well I think she's considering my only point is I think I'm the only victim that goes back and forth as much and so I'd have a vested interest in that but I don't I'm open to being talked out of it I guess. My question we have three different mobility. We have the the city and then the regional and then the Dallas. So should someone be on all three is that consistent? I mean or should it be spread out? That's kind of my question about it. I mean when is the last time Dallas Regional Mobility even met because I haven't heard of anything happening on Dallas Regional Mobility. I can't answer that. I think the whatever agendas they send out go directly to whatever committee member. Who was there prior? Well either Hawkins, Roden. Okay we don't know. I don't know or Wasney one of the three. I'm sorry I don't know that. I would agree with you that you need some type of continuity because it's very difficult to be on one like for instance being on RTC and not on mobility it was pretty difficult last year. So does that mean you're volunteering? I mean I'm okay with Keely being on there because I think two out of three is good but I'm wondering just if this thing even meets. We can find that out for you. Okay so put Councilmember Briggs. Lake Ray Roberts-Peensee is currently Councilmember Briggs. Did you want to stay on that? I would love to. North Texas Commission is Mayor Watts. Does it have to be the mayor? Well let's see if it's in here. Well I mean it's hard to make those meetings and it's I mean if somebody else has a burning desire to do that that'd be it's like a regional chamber type. It says currently the city's membership in the commission provides for two members currently the city manager and the mayor. Well it says currently it's that it doesn't say that it has to be those two. I can check on that for you. I think that we ought to put it in stone and that it has to be the mayor. Okay well. Alright. And must attend. Yeah well there we go. Yeah. So we'll leave you on there until we find out. Until we figure it out yeah. Okay RTC we have Mayor Pro Tem and Councilmember Bryan we just added as the alternate. Texas Municipal Power Agency we have Mayor Watts. Okay then our ad hoc committees we have the Council Community Event Center Committee is um yes sir. On that it seems like we're done. Oh okay. So we wanted to solve it. So unless somebody else do you think we're done? Yeah you at the last meeting that we had Kevin suggested that we keep it open and not dissolve it in case something were to come up but I don't have a problem dissolving it. What's the purpose of this committee? That's a good question. It was it was working on the Community Market Event Center space. Oh. So I think we're done. Yeah. And if we need another one we can form another one. Yeah I think it does. Y'all are done. Okay I'll just we'll get that one dissolved. We may have to do something. Stick a fork in it. Legal something to dissolve it. Development co-review committee. I like being. John okay. John okay. And employee benefits committee we have one vacancy. Excuse me. Okay. What's that? It's on the later part of the agenda. Okay. So we'll just leave that one blank till we get to the other part of the agenda. And then we have our economic development partnership board . I don't think I was on that. I think Councilmember Hawkins was on that it was him and Johnson but that's coming up that's coming is that the right one. Yes. You were on that and Hawkins was on that as the other person and that's a separate nominating committee. Yeah that's what I thought. Okay. Well and then that goes with the the two TIF boards because I think it's the number two is the same members as the EDP. Yeah yes yeah because that's the one out by the airport. Yes yeah they made it have the same the same yeah and I'll just say I don't mind relinquishing my seat on the either TIF board or the EDP board. I'm not on it. I'm not on the EDP board. If you were you wouldn't want it. So you want to keep off on that. I'd be interested neither or both. Okay. Councilmember Hussbett. Well I have an interest in the TIF board it's such that it 's going to be a rent one. I mean the airport I mean one and one in the same if I understand that right. No tip the one is the downtown and number two is the airport. No no no but I didn't didn't someone just say that they set them to be the same member well on the TIF number two okay those board members are members of the economic development partnership board the TIF board number one is a separate group. I'm tracking with you and so depending on how all that sett les in in the meantime yes I'd like to be on the TIF board one and I have and I have questions about EDP. Okay and so the EDP has got a separate nominating committee correct. And the TIF board if I remember correctly and so Caroline's not here but I thought I saw in a memo she sent out an email that the TIF board doesn't the ordinance doesn't have a nominating mechanism in the ordinance so I don't even know I mean I know there's some rolling off so we might have to figure. The zone number one is separate. That's right. Right. That's right but I didn't see that there's any I think she said there was no like we had the EDP nominating board. It's just it's just done by through council. Yeah okay all right. Yes Councilmember Geary. I also have some interest in the downtown Denton TIF board. All right good and so my point in that is how do we nom inate people to the downtown TIF board and because I know some are rolling off because they're limited. Here she comes. Oh she must have been listening. That's pretty bad when you're listening to Councilmember. It's that clairvoyance. Yes please if you could come forward and. Carry on. Oh the microphone yes. Hello. Hello. On the downtown TIF I thought I remember seeing an email or something and I asked you for the ordinance that there's not a nominating process for the ED for the TIF board number TIF number one board that is you know it has to be two members from the downtown two residences I think two council members but how do we how do we choose them. You as the council. Just those names out. Yes. Okay all right. Okay so we just choose we just choose those amongst ourselves. Right and we can we as staff can supply you with people who fit those categories if you need them and then you all can choose. Great all right fantastic. Thank you. Okay you're welcome. Yes. Do you want to do that now or. What it sounds like from the because I think two of those members have to be council members. So we can at least resolve what council members are going to be on that who desire to be on that board and then as we nominate the others we can but we can at least talk amongst ourselves who wants to be on that board. So believe you expressed an interest. Yes and then Mayor Pro Tem did you. I have a question. Okay go yes. Because we do have applications and so for the TIF do public do citizens get to fill out an application for that board or do we just come up. I see a I see a shake. I believe that is strictly council. It's not it's not okay it's not the same process. It's not in that. Thank you. Right. So everybody okay at least for now on the council members portion of that is council member Hussbett and Mayor Pro Tem here. No no no no no no I'll I'll let somebody else. Yeah. Okay. And then so for the EDP we'll do that through the nomination process the nominating board and then that will also carry over then to the zone number two because they're the same people. Okay. All right. Yes. The nominating board nominates the council members. Is that yes yes for the EDP. Okay yes. And oh sorry. And then whoever is are the two council reps on EDP automatically become to turn to board number two. Correct. Right. So help me refresh my memory in the past. I know we set up the nominating committee for the EDP which is I think two council members and a chamber board representative. If I recall in the past well does that nominating committee go and ask certain council members or do we talk I mean obviously there's people who have an interest in that and so I think if yes. I've been on that nominating committee a couple of times. Absolutely and so when when the nominating committee is selected by the council or appointed by the council we generally say if there are any members of council who are interested let us know and okay and so that's part of the process. The the representative from the chamber does some investigation about the slots for the chamber board and then our staff member does some investigation about gives us names of people in the companies that are if there's a some some like top 10 taxpayers somebody's rotating off she gives us a list of the top 10 taxpayers. Right. And representatives from those groups so that we we we appoint you know check and see if this person would be interested in or that person trying to rotate it around because a lot of those top 10 taxpayers remain the top 10 from time to time from year to year. Okay. So that's how it's been done. When do we select the council members for the nominating committee? I think we have that on the July 18th agenda. It's sometime in July and then the committee will present the slate of nominees sometime in August. Okay. So Councilmember Gregory it's your recollection that prior to the establishment of that nominating committee council members didn't express a desire to be on that board prior to that. Yeah that's that's okay. Okay great. So for purposes for this evening at your later meeting you 'll be ratifying these. I think what I'll ask I know that Jane is intently listening at her desk and I will ask her to leave the blanks in the those three boards that we just talked about ADP and the those other two because it's a whole different process. Okay. So we'll just leave those those blank and we'll have that this list updated and at your desk by the time you're ready to consider that. Right. Thank you Mayor and then I suppose that it would mean a separate action to dissolve the Council Community Event Center Committee. I forgot how it was authorized. I think it was by ordinance or resolution. They're typically done by resolution but the dissolution language has actually taken various forms I'd have to look at it to see what we specified in it . Okay well we can maybe clean that up at the July 18th meeting. Yeah it was it was done by resolution so you see what it says. All right. Thank you. Any other okay no other questions. Council members it's four o'clock we've got one two two more work sessions a couple of closed sessions and five and items for individual consideration so we've got it I mean I'm wondering if we're going to be here past dinner so what are you all thinking any any comments on that. I heard it was pizza. Have we made that decision. We can make that. I mean if you want dinner and probably yeah and that's fine . I mean so we do I know a couple of closed sessions I think may take a little bit of time. We have a couple of work session items like the DH low income housing tax credit request that may take a little time. So I'm thinking we might ought to just get it and if you don't want to eat it you don't have to. All right. Okay. Okay. Good. I didn't mean it to sound that rough but sort of parental. All right. Let's move on to agenda item to see to see receive report whole discussion give staff direction regarding board and commission nominations and appointments. Thank you again mayor and council at your spots today you have our famous or infamous whichever you prefer. It's very well done. Housing commissions notebooks and I'd like to personally thank Jane for putting these together. She's the one that gets all this organized and Cindy this year helped her get the books together for you. Just for those who have not seen these books before I just want to review just a couple quick things in them. Of course you have your list of nominations at the front that tells you which board and which council member has the nomination. Then you also have vacancies by council member and the first one is vacancy by board. You have attendance information if you want to see if your person that's currently serving has fulfilled his or her obligations by attending the meetings. You also have a very handy chart. It's the board preference chart. We've taken the applications that we received and we've put them in alphabetical order and then listed what boards are interested in. So if you have somebody that you have a vacancy or want to make a nomination say to human services you can just look down that column and find what applications we have received. You have a tab that has your current members and then you have the actual application forms. These applications are maintained in our office for two years and so that's what you'll see is some of them might be a little old. The way the process is going to work this year, what we're trying to do is on July 25th your nominations will be due to my office so that we can, you're laughing, so that we can start the nomination process making our list for you to consider and then at the August 1st work session you'll discuss those nominations and then we'll confirm the nominations that have been submitted at the regular session and then on August 15th you'll have an additional meeting to complete the nominations if necessary which I know will not be necessary. You'll have them all in there by the August 1st meeting. So it's kind of brief just explanation of your notebooks. We've also included a couple application forms. The application form is online on the website and we've also put in a little blurb pamphlet for someone if you want to give someone what each board and commission does. Well I will tell you I really appreciate the time and energy that you guys put into this because it is so helpful to have that information so readily available because the first thing I did was go to my sheet that says what nominations or appointments am I responsible for and it's nice to see a lot of them are still eligible and wishing to so it's very helpful. So thank you very much. It is just remarkable. Yes, Council Member Reed. I have a question about the eligible and the word yes. Does that mean they have been contacted and the desire is there or does that just mean that they are? If it says eligibility and yes that means yes they're eligible to be reappointed. Now if some of the we have a member who's for example I know someone on the I think that's the Zoning Board of Adjustment has indicated well I 'm not sure that my talents are used to the best of my ability here. I could go to a different board but if nobody you know it's on Habsco because Habsco is very specific on the positions and that person said well I 'll stay if I'm needed but I may not be interested. So if we have a nomination and the word says yes that they 're eligible is it possible for us to reach out to them to see if they wanted to be ren ominated? Is that before we just nominate them? We send out letters to each of the people on the boards and commissions and ask them if they're interested in being renominated so we have already asked them but certainly you know that's if you'd want to do that again that's your pleasure. I had someone reach out to me and say that they weren't really interested and it says yes on here so I was just kind of trying to figure out. That means they're eligible but they apparently didn't tell us. Yes that means that they've agreed to stay on. Okay correct. Thank you. I mean I always call those that are eligible to see if they really want to but the other thing I always do is we still have a page in here that shows attendance because sometimes if you look at their attendance page and they're not showing up then it's sort of telling you that maybe they're not all that interested so I always that 's part of my process is checking that out. That's a good suggestion. Councilmember Husserl. Thank you mayor. All right how would we handle planning and zoning? They're missing one key call currently but there's I don't know I have to look at my list but there's I know Commissioner Taylor is adding to the family and wanting to roll off sooner than later and so I wasn't sure what that process looks like. We try to encourage them except for in the case of your case where you went to council but if they're just saying I don't want to serve much longer we try to encourage them to stay as long as possible till their replacement cert has been nominated and proved and sworn in. In the case of P&Z if we need to we can pull that if you all are comfortable with it we can pull that one out separate from all the rest and kind of fast track it so they have a full board. I think if I'm right Erin that some of the proceedings that they do they have to have maybe six members. I'm not planning and zoning commission it's just a simple majority majority okay yeah I'm working on trying to get somebody just yeah and then of course there's the ones that are outside all this process and that's some civil service those are appointed by the city manager and the Denton Housing Authority appointed strictly by the mayor. No I just I'll reach out to Commissioner Taylor and get a get check with him and see kind of what his timetable looks like and then I'll follow up with you. And we always encourage if someone doesn't want to serve especially if it's midterm or whatever that they send us a formal letter resigning because you know sometimes what you hear is not really what happens so we like to get the letter exactly from the person. Mayor Pro Tem. So when will we hear about the TIF board when will that process happen as far as the nominations for that? I thought it was July 18th wasn't it? Uh huh yes. Okay just making sure so well I mean I guess we're not gonna get potential people so we should be prepared on July 18th with our own nominations. For the TIF board? Yes. I think that's separate from this process. Okay. Yeah that's that's a whole separate function. Okay from here. Any other questions or comments? Alright. Thank you very much. And I meant to say this and I'll please pass this along to Mr. is it Cater? Terry Cater. One thing that I noticed when he was giving his presentation which I really enjoyed and he referred to the people that he served as customers and I really I mean I had it written down three times on this sheet but somehow I forgot to mention it when he was up there so please send that those regards because I was I was just very impressed that and I know that's what we're trying to get to and and all the other departments of the city is that and even if you're a city employee with a city department to still refer to them as customers I think that's it's a very good sign that I really just appreciated that. So if you wouldn't mind passing that along I would appreciate that. Thank you. Yes. I have a question about the last if we already know and have names can we go ahead and email them to you? Okay. Yes. She yes that will make up for the tardiness of my name so I appreciate that the average will work itself out. Okay let's move on to agenda. Unless y'all want to take a little five minute break everybody okay? Okay. We'll move on to agenda item 2e. Receive report and hold discussion give staff direction regarding a policy and application to review low income housing tax credit requests and I have a question for the attorney here. In the midst of the in the context of this conversation would it be a would it be within the posting to give an update on a specific project that the City Council has taken action on and whether they're still moving forward or not in any form or would that have to be for a separate posting? In connection with how it would possibly meet the proposed policy criteria that would be acceptable. I'll try to weave that in. Thank you. Good afternoon Mayor Watts, council members. I'm here today to present on the low income housing tax credit application and policy. So in May of 2017 this year the City Council considered resolutions of support for two four percent housing tax credit requests from a private developer in partnership with the Denton Housing Authority. During this review council requested that staff do some research of other municipalities to understand how they handle these requests and if we could draft a process to make it a standard process for these requests to come through. So my goal of the presentation today is to just give you some background on the research we did of other municipalities to also show you a draft policy and application for just your initial feedback and questions. Policy adoption or adoption would take place at a later date. So just by way of background what is this program? It was created by the federal government and basically what it does is it gives blocks of tax credits to each state. Then the state administers that program. So in Texas it is administered by the Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs. There are two types of housing tax credits either for four percent or nine percent. And then they submit an application actually to the Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs and as part of that application they need to get resolutions of support or non-objection from the local communities. And that's how the city comes into play for this process. So the city can support, have no objection or opposition to the proposed projects for housing tax credits. When we did some research we found that some cities have actually established a policy and an application process and really that's for two reasons. One is it's to help the council and kind of you know which projects should be supported and how are we going to evaluate these requests. But then two it provides clear direction to applicants for what are their expectations, what are their procedures as they go and ask for this request from the council. So looking at other cities there's kind of a range of methods used from no evaluation criteria they're just asking can you submit basic information about your project and the housing tax credit request. Others use general evaluation criteria and when I say general evaluation criteria it's really just a listing of what are some factors that the council might consider or might look at or might want more information on. So really that provides some understanding to the applicant about what they should be more detailed in their application and submission of information to the council. But it opens it up that you still have every right to consider any item that you would like to. And then some communities go a step further and that's really those last two bullet points in regards to priority considerations. So those that might be receiving multiple requests a year they're trying to get to some type of method where they can rank these requests coming in . So for example with priority considerations I've seen some cities that have priority or preference for senior housing. They might have a preference for those projects that are redeveloping existing buildings or infrastructure instead of new development. And then the last one is minimum policy thresholds. So this is like the city of Fort Worth where in order to get even a resolution of support there needs to be a certain percentage of housing dedicated to permanent supportive housing. So they've gone that even further step. And so what we did as a staff team with community development and planning and myself is we tried to draft a basic policy and application that the council could review. And that was attached as exhibit three to the AIS. What we did is we kind of looked at all those other pieces from other municipalities and stole little bits and put it together. So here were the key components that we really wanted to hit on was to state the city's intent and that's to create an application process by which you can analyze these type of requests going forward. To list out some general evaluation criteria which I'll show you in a minute. And then to gather all the relevant information at once to facilitate review. So instead of going back and forth and back and forth can we get all of it up front? They review it with the staff team first and then they make a presentation to council so that by the time you get that information it's been vetted and we'll try to have all of it together for you. We also saw a commonality to set expectations for applicants. How many meetings will they need to attend? Do they present to the council? If you don't meet the deadlines is your request not going to be considered? And the last is to set a schedule and that's really so that it sets the expectation for the applicant of when everything needs to be submitted by and to kind of remove that urgency of it needs to get done now. They'll have known up front each year what needs to take place by when. And so in that exhibit three there is a project narrative and a financial narrative and it asks a number of questions in regards to the project and then they also have to submit these attachments as well as providing their narrative descriptions. So again this is kind of from best practices of other municipalities as well as from kind of what we heard from the last council discussion in May of what you would like to see when these requests are considered. So for example you want to see all letters of support or opposition and specifically from the school district and county. A financial narrative you want to see the pro forma if it's tax exempt. What's the projected loss of property tax? What's the detailed plan for how those projected revenues will be used if it is tax exempt to buy the nonprofit housing partner? And then there's some other attachments listed there below in regards to a location map of other affordable housing within the area that the development is proposed. And some other of those last three are really they get attached to their Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs applications so we'd like to see those as well. And then here is a list of as I mentioned some of the general factors that may be looked at during this process. I'll just go through a couple of them in regards to does it align with our comprehensive plan, our future land use maps, all zoning and really have planning. Again this would be a staff team looking at these applications from planning and community development finance. What's the impact on the surrounding neighborhoods? Does it have support from the surrounding community and the neighborhoods? Does the development team that's going to be building this, do they have a reputable reputation? Are they well known for building projects? And then traffic and what are the amenities of the development and so forth? On that list, I would think that given the past history that we've had that bullet point number 1234 is probably deserving of a little more attention on that checklist of submittals so I would want to see something about how many neighborhood meetings were conducted from the surrounding area and have that as a part of the checklist and that's part of item four. Item number, oh man I can't count that many dots down, the one for provision for both tanks credit and market rate units. It would seem to me that maybe at that particular bullet point we might also want to lift permanent support housing for the homeless and I think we're going to need maybe a little bit more information on that about are there requirements in getting the tanks credit that there are so many or a certain percentage of market rate units mixed in there and therefore would we want to consider percentages of permanent support housing placed in there so just points for discussion down the road. Okay. Yes, ma'am Pro Tem. I really appreciate the work that was done on this and especially the research that you included in the backup because it's very helpful to see what cities are doing. I like the point system a lot. I think it gives clarity to the applicants as opposed to more of a guideline approach so that would be my preference is to actually assign points to these items even if it's just a simple metric that we say look these are the things you have to have a minimum of these things met and I think that involves a little bit more clarity and detail on the these items. One thing I really would like to see is a greater emphasis on mobility in terms of access to bus lines, access to bike and pedestrian infrastructure because typically these developments have quite a bit of density involved with them and so it's a good opportunity to incorporate those design standards and meet our mobility needs and save some money in the future because those mobility needs are going to have to be met one way or the other. So that's on one point at least I'd like to see a lot more clarity which is the traffic impact but yeah I really appreciate the schedule aspect as well. I mean that's just that by itself I think will be very helpful. Yes I'm sorry Councilmember Hesmuth. Thank you Mayor. Likewise I mean that address Mayor Portem-Begari touched on I think the points would be great and then also it does though coming in on the tail end of this and I may be drilling down a little too far into it but for me what is complete and so you have a community meeting but what are you just going through the motions or did you actually take feedback? How do you measure that right? So because we've all seen people have a meeting just to say I got that out of the way onward upward and there's so how do you and I only look at it as critical eye because whoever gets disqualified or I kind of saw the meeting kind of before this and kind of how do you take the emotion out of it and say no no we made a linear decision but it's a subjective takeaway was this meeting productive or was it just gone rushed through to get the means to an end? I don't have an answer for that I'm just saying I think that those are challenges that will come if someone's on the wrong side of a decision and so I think it's good just to kind of make sure we at least factor into our decisions or kind of how we evaluate this process. So related to this I do know that there were several bills in the 85th legislature regarding tax credit properties and the scoring it's similar to this and it's as I understand it most of those bills were left in committee do you have an update on that? I mean are we still going to be are these still going to be able to come to council and we get to weigh in on these tax credit applications? I do not have an official update in working with Danny Shaw she did inform me that that was one of the considerations was perhaps they would the Texas Department of Community and Housing Affairs would change their ranking system to remove if city councils had preference or not as far as I know that did not go anywhere further but it could come up at a future point. Okay thank you. I will confirm. So just kind of wrapping up we can look at anything additional and bring it back later for formal policy adoption if you want to take it a step further to go towards a ranking system or have some general criteria preferences but really we just wanted to present you with kind of a baseline draft policy and application and process and then what we would propose is that it would be reviewed each year based upon experience of tweaks needed to be made so that we can just keep improving the process as we go and or if we do get more requests how do we provide the tools to you to rank those and decide which are more deserving for support. Councilmember Gregory. Well a couple of questions it's interesting that some of the cities got so many that they prioritize they use this as a way to prioritize in those cities did they have a deadline by which applications must be or request must be submitted so that they could compare them all whether it's by numerical ranking or whatever to make those decisions. Yes they do have a deadline. Have you recommended that for us? Yes it is included in that exhibit three so there's kind of a general timeline and just to go over it with you I didn't put in the exact dates because those would be determined but it is an annual process so in the fall of 2017 TDHCA will set those specific dates but generally for the city it would be sometime in January of 2018 applications would be due. Staff would review that in January and February and then a presentation would be made to the City Council in a work session in February of 2018 and then in March you can consider actual resolutions of support so give you two meetings for a first review and then a future meeting for the resolutions. Okay and then to follow up I do like the idea of maybe a numerical rating and I think that maybe some one of the things that we that might be helpful to come back to us is maybe look at a couple of the projects that have come to see you know imagine what their rating would have been you know given what we're dealing with now specifically I think it would be interesting to know would we want to say a development that pays property taxes gets X number of points and a development that does not is not necessarily eliminated but it gets no points or fewer points and you know so it wouldn 't necessarily eliminate or do we want to eliminate I think that's a that's a pretty heavy discussion that we probably are going to have to have as we finalize this. Well I know that on the last two projects that we looked at you know obviously that was a sort of two issues one was is it removing property off the tax rolls and if so then the additional revenue that's going to a particular organization or whoever that organization is with how are they using that because I know we met and this is still part of the application because I think we met with staff in Austin to sort of go over this very same thing and I asked them you know do you have do you usually partner or do you have developers that partner with nonprofits where it takes it off the rolls and they said well we we discourage that we want to because they do so much down there with with their tax revenue towards projects and initiatives for for homelessness that they just couldn't they couldn't do it if they were taking off the roll so at some point I do want to give an update on on sort of the other two projects and what is sort of in the at least behind the scenes in process but this isn't the place to do that but those are those are very good questions and I think it goes to what is this council I mean if we're funding initiatives for to ending veterans homelessness and transitional housing and things such as that we're going to need the revenue from some of those projects in order to fund those so yes so that it may be that that there are three criteria or for a certain number of criteria that must be met as the baseline and then and then points awarded for other things so that we could separate out which ones we wanted to support or not yes mayor pro tem for me I wouldn't be comfortable continuing to approve the properties that are the projects that take properties off of the tax rolls simply because I've requested where those tax monies lost revenue have gone to I mean it's lost for us gain for them and there's been no indication that that's been spent on public services and in the manner that's been I would say presented so I think going forward the Austin model is probably the way to go so I would like to see something that and we would have to have that you know there needs to be some type of vote and consensus and hearing and all that but I'm in favor of not continuing with removing these properties off of the tax rolls I don't think we could continue to do that if I mean if there's a consensus of council in that regard at least we know we can pull that criteria off is that or is that something we need further discussion on yes because more that did am I am I tracking right with you that it's if they can provide the information fine then you'll consider it or is it a categorical just assuming that information is not available we're not going to if it's taking tax if it's coming off the tax roll we're not going to do it is that am I am I understanding it right well these housing projects can either keep property on the tax rolls or they can take it off and it's not just for the city it's for the school district and the county as well but that that letter only comes from the city so my position would be that I'm not in favor of continuing to take these projects off the tax rolls because of the demands that are being placed on our city services and on other services but and the second part of that is in the past properties that have been taken off of the tax rolls that lost income from taxes was not redirected to nonprofit or to the communities that are being served so that would be kind of some of the rationale behind it okay thank you well we could save that for discussion we come back with the policy if we need to yes okay I'll just hold my question until that discussion yeah well go ahead and ask your question that matter help us with well with with Austin spinning the money into other other services like for the homeless and if I would be okay with removing and not considering projects that are not going to be on the tax rolls if we had some sort of resolution or some sort of direction for council to spend a percentage of that for certain projects to make sure that we are doing what we we say or think that we will from the taxes that we're creating from these properties to go back into helping if that's possible well that's we can we can have that a little bit more further detail right in the policy discussion yes so you're asking for direction in order to put your two little you had two bullets up yeah at the end so I just wanted to hear if you liked the general approach of using general evaluation criteria it sounds like you may want us to bring some options forward of policy preferences or maybe even a strict it's that you know maybe a stricter policy to not just a preference yeah and with that I think that I have a lot of sympathy for Mayor Pro Tempigari's position on the property tax issue I just think that it's going to be important for us to understand the all of the implications that that has especially as it as it relates to the various authorities that would partner with them that would that would benefit from that I just I want to I want to know I want to be able to anticipate as many consequences as possible from that decision and I understand the consequences that it means in terms to the county and the city and the school district in terms of revenue but I want to understand what it what the implications are so that so that we're making it with as much information as possible and I like the timeline I like that we're not going to feel pressured you have to do this or you know by next Tuesday or something and we don't have another meeting to talk about something if we want to so I think that is a is good is good good okay great do you feel like you have sufficient direction yes well I mean one of the things we try to do is make sure that staff because there was the observation that sometimes council didn't give clear direction and staff was left wondering and so I really try to just touch base to make sure that we don't want you walking out of here going well is this really what they want I really wasn't quite sure so gosh now's the time to clear it up if there's any kind of question I think we can try to categorize and try to try to put some emphasis on how we would score this for you and based on the priorities that we're hearing today and basically what I'm thinking about is just broad categories that were there scores for each category but I think what it's always easier to respond to those scoring sheets reflect your categories once we build it so I think what we can get that done and if there's any other policy direction that you like to give us I think we've got a pretty good idea we knew that you're concerned about the time you were getting to make decisions clearly some of the things that councilmember hudspeth hit on in terms of community notification meaningful you know feedback from the school districts in the community those those sorts of things so I think we can break down these criteria and three or four categories let you respond to it if you're fine with it then at least we could start putting the kind of the new rules the game in place and have a meeting with the housing authority okay that's fine everybody okay with that all right fantastic all right thank you appreciate it this brings us to our closed session portion of the agenda so I will convene the closed session at 430 we will consider the following items consultation with attorneys under Texas government code section five five one point oh seven one and deliberations regarding real property under Texas government code section five five one point oh seven two thank you council members this item for you the specific request is that City Council approve award of a contract to Zachary construction corporation in the amount of thirty five million eight hundred and seventy seven thousand four and fourteen dollars and fifty two cents for the construction of Mayhill Road a little bit of information about the project is shown here north is to the top it shows Mayhill down near thirty five near where it connects with with Colorado but not all the way to it it's about five hundred feet from there is where the project would start and it goes all the way up to highway 380 at the top and as you can see across the several creek areas where various drainage facilities will be part of the project construction of a four lane divided concrete roadway with a wide median that will accommodate two additional lanes in the future should we decide to do that a ten foot path on one side a five foot sidewalk on the other storm drains culverts new bridges at Cooper and Pecan creeks and then there's the extent of the project from 380 down toward just north of Edwards Road our consultant freezing nickels review the bids that we received and they researched the low bidders qualifications to make sure they met minimum qualifications to do the project review their financial situation the financial statement they recommended award to Zachary construction corporation who was the low bidder overall we received eight bids they range from thirty five eight seventy seven up to a high of forty two million three hundred sixty about it about an eight eighteen percent spread from from the low to high bid just gives us a comfort factor that those bids are kind of in the same ballpark that no one's an outlier the funding for this project comes primarily from regional toll revenue funds over thirty and a half million dollars from that source county precincts one four have contributed and then city capital improvement project funds as well what questions do you have have have we used the Zachary construction corporation before in the city have they done work for us before I don't know I know yes ma'am I believe they built loop 288 that's what I was told when we learned that Zachary won this contract or appeared to be the apparent low bidder so yes they have done construction work in the city before thank you and that would have been a text- off project not a city project okay so they have worked in this area before I know that in the past if we did a project out and I'm gonna keep it generic but it will encompass this fact scenario we've been a project out and if somehow we have a cost overrun that there's a certain percentage that if you're under that percentage you don't have to read bid it or do something different that's correct it's 25% okay you can use change orders up to 25% of the initial of the original bid amount or the award amount I should say is that an aggregate amount 25% I mean you take 25% of let's say this is just a 40 million it's an aggregate amount okay it'll get to you know it can be 10 change orders as long as it doesn't exceed 25% 25% yes all right okay okay Any questions? I don't have approval I'll second We have a motion and a second for agenda item 1A We're gonna do a hand vote all in favor signify by raising your right hand all opposed by like sign so we have a 6-1 approval We'll move on to agenda item 6B Consider approval of resolution of city of debt reestab lishing an ad hoc city council committee appointing committee members to review employee benefits of the city of debt Good evening mayor and members of the city council Carla Romine director of human resources In March of this year the council approved a resolution to create an ad hoc committee to review the city of debt and sick and vacation benefits less than a month later the role of the committee was expanded to look at all the benefits The committee met twice to review the benefits and consider some recommended changes But at their last meeting on April 27th they had asked staff to seek input from employees Staff did seek that input but we weren't able to provide the feedback to the committee before it dissolved per the resolution that was on May 16th And so the item before you tonight is to reestablish that committee Give us an opportunity to share the feedback from the employee group to them before they make a final recommendation to the full council This resolution doesn't have an end date a specific end date instead it would dissolve whenever the final presentation or recommendation was made to the council And then since Kathleen Rosney is no longer on council we would need the council to appoint some new members So is this resolution just reestablishing it or is it re establishing it? Reestablishing and appointing Okay, council discussion I would like to remain on this committee It's on there do you want to do it? Okay So that means we need if someone else is wanting to do it then we can do it instead of your Anybody else interested in being on the employees? Okay Do you want to do it? I'll do it Okay so we do have councilmembers who are willing to do it so I need to make a motion to reestablish and also to establish the councilmembers who are appointed Councilmember I move to reestablish and to appoint Briggs, Gary and Ryan is that right? That's my motion Okay Second We have a motion and a second all in favor of agenda item 1 B posted by raising your right hand Alright It looks like 7-0 Passes 7-0 Agenda item 1C consider appointments to council committees as we saw in our work session I'm going to talk about this council committees and so forth so I'll support it We've got a fast pass on that [inaudible] She handed me five Alright mayor and council we updated your list from your work session as you can see we left the EDP and the two TIF ones empty at this time so you can make those later and just need upon favorable approval we'll put these into motion Council has a table or a roster of the different committees and corresponding councilmembers I move approval We have a motion for approval councilmember Briggs I will second Alright we have a motion and a second appointing the councilmembers to the respective committee all in favor of the 6-5 by raising your right hand Passes unanimously Thank you [inaudible] Good afternoon Council Mayor my name is Lee Perry I am an engineer in the capital projects division I'm new to the city Thank you I've been here about three months So I have the last two items they're both water transmission projects and these are both for design contracts So when I started the city there were a top five priority list of water projects for us to do and three of these projects are on here for today under two design contracts The first item is the all red to John Payne Road water transmission project And we're requesting a council to award a professional service contract to Kimley horn associates in the amount of $504,500 for the project A little description of the project is approximately 14,000 feet it's broken up into three parts we got 14,000 feet of transmission main consisting of 24 inch 30 inch size pipe along all red and John Payne between the southwest pump station and Bonnie Bray We also are going to have an additional redundant feed near Bonnie Bray and US 377 and then we're going to install a flow control valve at the southwest pump station site So the importance of the project this project is in the city's water master plan It's to provide secondary or provide an additional feed of redundancy and flexibility to southwest Denton The transmission main already said that come provide a secondary feed to the southwest pump station in case one of the so there's already a feed there the second feed if one of the feeds go down we'll be able to have service either way Question customer breaks. Is that what makes this priority that there's not a backup if something happens. That's one of the. That's one of the reasons yes is that there's just one single feed a 20 inch main that goes to southwest to the southwest pump station site and then that feeds all of southwest southwest part of Denton and so all the other areas of Denton have other other feeds besides just just the one. I'm not sure. Sorry. I can find out but I'm not sure about that but I know for this particular project this particular area that that's what our water water department has requested. So project funding the design is funded in year 2017 for five hundred four thousand five hundred dollars construction is funded in year 2018. That's made a cause for this project is about six million dollars and it's coming out of utility bonds and our design schedule for this project is approximately nine months. Are those bonds are those revenue bonds or CEO on. That the record reflect the CEO bonds. Yes. Was that five hundred thousand part of this. Was that design money part of the total six million or is that separate from a separate. Yes, that's the. Question on those lines just so I can get oriented. What's the difference in hiring a can you want to say consulting company design versus straight to a construction company that I'm assuming has a designer component is there more like a design build or. Well, not so much design to build but I'm assuming a construction company would have a design department if you will. And so is that was their consideration take is that it may be normal to do it this way. I just need to understand that. That was not as far as I know that was not considered for this project. But I think from my experience for design build projects would be on a bigger scale. Maybe than this project. Yeah, generally you'll have consulting engineers who specialize in water, wastewater, streets, drainage, whatever it may be. You'll bring them in because they will be able to properly permit the the projects, get them ready for for bid. And then the contractors just basically come in and work. It's rare that you see a construction firm that's got the ability to design their own projects at times when you utilize a design build. You'll have a contractor team up with an engineering firm and there will be times that makes sense when you've got really strict timelines or a large project where you're wanting to make sure that they're coordinated from the beginning. But this is pretty standard hire firm that specializes in that design and then somebody in the contract if they each are going to be more efficient in one area than the other. And if I may. Yes, sure. Okay. And I don't know if this is possible, but I'll direct it to you, Mr. City Manager. Out of this process, I would like to see if there's any modeling or if part of their normal design is a model of what they're doing. I'd love to start collecting those. Again, when we have a project that's going underground or that may not be seen, if we have, hey, they got to build models, they got to build. I just would like to start accumulating a library of visuals that help people understand what $6 million brings you, its importance, that sort of thing. And I just don't think we get it every day. So on these projects, this one specifically, if we're able to start kind of working those things in, and even if it's a computer generated something, I mean, that comes with that design process that helps people understand the value and the importance of that, or at least put a visual to that need, not doubting the need, but needing to be able to articulate that to citizens. I'd like to do that. And then as an aside, I'd love to, as much as I see Kimber ley Horne, I'd love to see Kimberley Horne, Denton's office, just saying. We'll definitely beef up the presentations and improve the level of data that you're seeing in terms of the overall benefits and the budget overview as well. In terms of the as-builts that are left for each one of these projects, we typically, I'm assuming we'll own those as-builts, integrate them with our GIS so we can keep track of our system as a whole. But yeah, we can definitely beef up the presentations a little bit more, provide the number of customers that are affected, why this project was necessary, and a little bit more data behind them in the future. Thank you, sir. Council Member Gregory. Thank you. In a project like this where we're hiring the design firm, the engineers, when we do this for an architect that's designing a building, part of that fee includes the architect's oversight to make sure that the construction is being done according to the plans. Does that happen with our engineering firms? Is the construction management a part of this, or is this just... We have some construction-phase services. So they are involved in doing some inspections to make sure that it's being built according to the specifications? Yes. Okay, thank you. I was just going to add, Kimley-Horn has done some work at the Southwest Pump Station site already and in this area, so they're familiar with the system and the area that we're working in. Thank you. Yes. Then, Mayor, if there's no more discussion, I'm going to move approval of Item D. All right. That's my right. I'll second. All right, we have a motion and a second for Agenda Item 1D . All in favor, please signify by raising your right hand. Carries 7-0. Agenda Item 1E, consider adoption of an ordinance author izing the Senate Manager to execute a professional services agreement for design and engineering services relating to the extension of approximately 1,900 linear feet of 20-inch waterline and 900 linear feet of 16-inch waterline from the east side of I-35 to the west side of I-35, et cetera. Okay, so this is two projects that were in the master plan, two crossings at 35. We put them together in one design contract because of their proximity to each other. So in general, we're asking counsel to award a professional services contract to Berkoff, Hendricks, and Carter, LLP, in the amount of $229,492 for this project. This map shows you've got one cross, you've got the two crossings at 380 and 35, and you've got the one crossing at Scripture and 35, which as was stated, 1,900 feet of 20-inch and 900 feet of 16-inch main at 380, and you have approximately 370 feet of 20-inch at Scripture crossing at 35. Council Member Briggs? When it says transmission line, is that overhead transmission lines or is that, are you talking about the water lines? Water. Okay. Clarification. Yeah, water transmission. Sorry about that. No, water transmission. We see a lot of transmission stuff, so I'm just... So, project importance. Again, it was on the city's master plan, both of these projects. These provide service to the western part of the city. More reliability, adequate, to provide adequate water service. So both of these projects kind of fill in gaps that are at 35 along these two streets to connect the 20 and 16 on the east side of 35 over to the 20 and the 12 on the west side of 35. There's no connection there right now. And the same for at Scripture, there's a 20-inch that we're going to connect to and take it over 35 and tie it to another main on that side. So I said gaps. That's what that is. And so when you say redundancy, you've got water lines coming down the west side of 35 that is supplied. I mean, it's active. But if something were to happen there with the supply for that particular line, without this redundancy, you might have some issues with service. Whereas if you had these other additional connections, you have a break in the main or something like that, you can always maybe isolate it or something. You can feed from different ways. Great. That sort of addressed your redundancy, I think, to some degree on how do we do that around the rest of the city. Yeah. Go ahead. And was this on -- this was also like a priority on your list? Yeah, these two projects in the previous one were three of the top five water priorities that we were told we needed to get done. You're done. Thank you. So this design is also funded in 2017, the 229.42, and then the construction is funded in 2018 also. And the estimated cost for this project is $1.4 million. OK. Any other questions? Chair would entertain a motion. Council Member Ryan? I'll move approval. Second. We have a motion and a second for agenda item 1E. Everybody -- all those in -- all those wanting to approve, that's tired me. I just had pizza, too. All those who approve, signify by raising your right hand. Carries 7-0. Oh, well, we've reached our concluding items. Any concluding items? Council Member Briggs, we're going to limit you. You've got about five or 10 each time. Yes, ma'am, go ahead. Actually, I just have one today. And it was because of all the gas well royalty discussion, it appears I'm one of few that don't have any royalties. So I would just like to bring the discussion of setbacks back to council. Oh, boy. I'm sorry I did that. That's all right. And I want everyone to participate. So help me understand exactly what you mean by that. I don't know what -- Gas well setbacks. You mean to -- I would just like to -- with the new -- I just want the discussion to come back and us to have, like, a work session on what we have currently. I do know that there was legislation proposed. I know that it didn't move anywhere. About the schools? Yeah. Schools, churches. So just revisit what we have and is there any desire to do anything different? For those certain locations, yes. Okay. All right. Great. Council Member Ryan. Thank you, Mayor. I have two. One, Friday before last, one of our utility companies did some work on Ryan Road at Montecito. And on the rain that happened over the weekend, it cratered in and it looks like they did some repair on it, but it's -- Sunk again. It's still sunk down pretty bad. We need to have somebody take a look at that. And then my other item is I believe we have an upcoming agenda item somewhere down the road for a work session on open meetings. And I'd like to make sure that we include social media and how interaction on social media between multiple council members, how that is affected on the open meeting. All right. Okay. Thank you. Anybody else? All right. Seeing none, this concludes our agenda. So we will stand adjourned at 639. [ Silence ]