May 09, 2017 City Council on 2017-05-09 2:00 PM

Welcome you to this meeting of the Denton City Council, Tuesday, May the 9th, 2017. We do have a quorum as they're all sort of straggling in. It is 2.02 PM. Moving on to our first agenda item, citizen comments on consent agenda items. We have several cards. I'm going to read the cards that are not wishing to speak. For agenda item 1B, we have a Buddy, is it Dotson? Mrs. Buddy Dotson is in opposition to consent agenda item 1 B. And then Buddy Duboson, I'm sorry if I mispronounce that, is in opposition of agenda item 1B as well. Two cards wishing to speak. Mr. Hudspeth, if you'll come forward, state your name and address. Your time will begin. >> Mayor and council, my name is Will Hudspeth, I live at 6 23 Newton. You stopped me when I was talking the last time about the consent agenda. You said you have to stay on subject. Purpose of the things that I do about the consent agenda and the things that I'm seeing today is because the lack of transparency in the boards, in the past, the closed sessions where I think business is being talked about and dealt with in closed sessions that should be in the public. Citizens like me, who have debbed me as an activist, activists, we're going to do whatever we have to do to get things turned around to where they're fair to everyone. So let me give you an example how I can stay on subject and still talk about what I want to talk about. >> And this is on consent agenda items? >> Yes. >> Yes, sir. >> I'm going to show you how I can do that and still get my point across, which is stop doing things that is not proper for all citizens. Make sure you do something, what you do, you do it for all citizens. You save us money and the like. Here's how I'll do that. >> Yes, sir. >> First I'm going to read the, what you say is what should happen here. Citizens come in and generate, okay. This section of the agenda allows citizens to speak on consent agenda. Consent agenda items only. Each speaker will be given a total of three minutes to address any items he or she wishes to, wishes that are listed on the consent agenda. Request cards are available in the light. I want to speak on agenda item. C, 2C. >> 2C or 1C? >> I'm sorry, that's, yeah, I'm sorry. Yes, 1C. >> Okay. >> Consider adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton authorizing agreement between the city of Denton, Texas and the people who are running the dead festival. I don't think a dead festival is an appropriate thing to have in the city. It's much like the fact that we don't have any firemen of color. The dead festival reminds me of something like that. It's a dead festival. The- >> Thank you. >> And that's how I'll do this from now on. >> Thank you, sir. Appreciate that. >> I don't set it, right? >> All right. We have one more person wishing to speak on consent agenda item 1B. Suzy Autry? >> I think mine was the card that you couldn't read it. >> Is it Dobson? Yes, Mrs. Buddy Dobson? >> You didn't read that. You read Mr. Buddy Dobson. >> I thought I said Mrs. I'm sorry. Yes, Mrs. Yes. >> Me and him. >> Well, I didn't see Mrs. and Mr. Okay. Sorry, appreciate that. Appreciate that clarification. Yes. >> Hi, I'm Suzy Autry, 1501 Euphemia Drive here in Denton. Mayor and council members, thank you for giving me this opportunity, us this opportunity to speak out. I just wanted to mention on that subject, the substation. Out of the five side options proposed, the one chosen, the yellow one, was the one most highly opposed by the neighboring homeowners. With the blue option as the more favorable. The blue side is located along a nicely paved city street among other city owned facilities on undeveloped property with no direct residents. On the project information sheet included with some of your agenda items I've read, the DME stated in their timeline. DME has no timetable for actual construction but anticip ates that the station will be needed four to ten years after the site is selected by the city council and the land is acquired. So my question is, why do you have to vote today if we have four to ten years to be thinking about it? Next included is the revised yellow side option map dep icting a change that moves the station more to the northern boundary of the property. The change wasn't shown publicly until last week as far as we know. So again, we're asking why are we moving on that decision now when the residents in that area really haven't seen that change as well. And then the resolution attached says the agenda includes the phrase, consider the impact of homeowners. If the impact of the homeowners was truly considered, then the yellow side would not be the chosen side. Lastly, this is the emotional side of my purpose here today . My parents, Betty and Bessie Dobson, who are here reside at 5547 Woodland Hills. Next month they celebrate their 65th wedding anniversary, all of those years in Denton. They've raised three children, helped raise five grandchildren. We all live in Denton. We've lived here our whole lives. We are invested in Denton. We care about Denton. We want to stay in Denton. That's why we've been here. My mother's a retired school teacher. My sister's retiring this year. I retired after 35 years at UNT. My father from General Motors, my brother's still at General Motors. We still stayed in Denton. It means a lot to us. My parents purchased their property, was two acres, now five acres in 1969. We went out there each week, planted trees, watered them because there were none there. So we're invested in that property, which is just north of this site. Sorry, my son has always also raised pigs and steers on their property for FFA. They have a pond where our family and friends fish. Even strangers come and stop and ask, can we fish here? It's just outside the city, although now they're inside the city limits. It's something that we treasure. This was their American dream. And for the retirement years, it has been very tranquil and beautiful place to relax on their back porch, watch the fish jump in the pond, the squirrels in the trees. Now they'll have the view of the substation right at their back door. So please consider your citizens. Thank you. >> Yes, Councilmember Road. >> Thank you for your comments. I'm just looking at a map. Have you cited Woodland Hills Drive, I guess, is where this property we're talking about? >> Yes. >> Is it all the way, do I take it all the way till it kind of dead ends there? >> They're right at the curve. If you drive left off of Hartley Field, you go down to the end of the road, they're the last house on the left. >> I see it. >> Their southern fence is the northern boundary fence for the property. >> Yeah. >> Just up a little bit to the east. >> Okay, great. Thank you very much for clarifying. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. For clarification, I will reread the white cards that were filled out. Mr. and Mrs. Buddy Dobson are in opposition to consent agenda item 1B. We have no more comments on the consent agenda items. So we will now go on to, we don't have, well, we don't have a portion for clarification of agenda items. Well, I've got a question on this agenda item, on the consent agenda item 1B. Either my mind is failing me or I might have missed this. When did we, last week? Okay, last week is when? Okay, so I was gone, all right, okay. And so if somebody could just share with me, if you can, if it wasn't a closed session, discussion, legal discussion . The blue side, what was the primary objection to that one over the yellow? Yes. >> We didn't really have any discussion on council about any of the sites. >> Okay. >> We had a presentation and it was a public hearing last time. >> Okay, all right. >> So it was probably the best to discuss that. >> Okay. Sorry, that's why I didn't remember it, because obviously I didn't see it. >> Correct. >> Yeah. >> So yes, we followed our process of establishing five options. We had an open house. We've had a public hearing with the public utility board, which they voted to recommend the yellow site, and then we had the public hear with the city council last Tuesday night. And so we brought this item back on consent, because we felt at that time, general direction from the council was to proceed with the yellow option. That's why we brought it back on consent today. At the last public hearing, the landowner for the blue site spoke and spoke about their development plans . And the city school district has written us an email and came in opposition to the blue site. >> Okay, all right. Yes, Mayor Pro Tem. >> Well, to clarify too, I understood the yellow site's action on already existing city property, correct? >> Correct. >> Which may- >> Sorry, I didn't make that clear. This is property that the city water department had bought years ago for, and has since determined that they did not need, and so that's why we had this one of the sites. >> Okay. So the modification for the revised yellow site, the revision I see it says revised yellow site option. >> Correct. >> The map. So the actual revised site is the solid yellow line, is that correct? And the dotted yellow line shows where it was previously. >> Correct, we moved it further north and citizen comments were that they wanted to diminish the being able to see it from Hartley Field Road. So we moved it as far north as possible to accommodate that . Since the initial public hearing at the Public Utility Board, we also found that we had right away easement to come off of Sherman Drive. And so that was one of the other concerns the citizens had about the yellow site was construction traffic. So we determined we would be able to access drive from Sherman in and out of the site. We would still have an exit coming off to Hartley Field Road, but the intent would be to use most of the construction traffic coming in off Sherman. >> Okay. And I'm looking at the revised yellow site option map. Which property is the Dobson's property? Do we, can somebody, is it the one that's? >> Let me bring up the presentation. >> I apologize for going back over this since I wouldn't hear it. >> Okay. >> Last week. >> So if I could ask the Dobson's. Is that it right there? >> Where you see the large pond to the right. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> All right. All right. Thank you. Okay. >> To the right. >> This. >> Okay. >> Where the yellow fence or the orange boundary line is for the city limits, right at the dog leg. >> Okay. >> Straight across to the right and then up. >> All right. >> Okay. >> That's helpful. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. >> So to give some contention from this boundary line, the Hartley field is 700 feet. >> Okay. Okay. All right. Okay, any other questions on this? I mean, any follow up from, yes, Council Member Briggs. >> I realize there's not an option here for us to comment on consent agenda items, but normally we do have a way to pull them off. Is there a way that we can pull this item off, please, for an individual vote? >> Yes. >> Thank you. So is that what you're requesting to do? >> Yes, please. >> Okay. All right. Okay, Council Member Gregory, do you have a question or something? Okay, then we'll move on. I mean, I guess if we have questions on consent agenda items when we get into the consent agenda items, if they need clarification or any other, we'll just do them as they come up real time. Moving on to our work session reports, agenda item 2A. Receive report, hold discussion, provide staff direction regarding Shiloh Village and the concept of community housing, co-housing. >> Good morning, Mayor, Council Members, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Pat Smith. I'm, let's see, former executive director of Serve Denton and now a homeless office worker at Denton Bible looking for a place to live and work. So, but- >> I'm sure we can find a spot for you. >> They're working on it. So this afternoon I'm here to share a vision, an idea that first was proposed a little over a year ago. And this is not, there's a lot you'll hear about tiny houses, but this is not about tiny houses per se. This is about creating affordable, low cost housing options that are leverage the idea of shared spaces . So I'm, shared spaces is what I've been living last five or six years. And so think shared spaces for people to live in and how to build community in that way. So Shiloh Village was an idea that I first wrote about in an editorial on February 4th. And cast the vision of using tiny homes as one alternative to address homelessness. It's not the only alternative by any means. And I suggested that maybe we look at veterans first one because they're near and dear to my heart, being one. And then explore the idea of how we can provide permanent homes for veterans, not transitional housing, to get that number of homeless veterans in Denton County to zero. So I did a lot of research out of that editorial. Folks from across the community reached out to me and we formed a team, which I'll talk about more in a second. And did a lot of research. And out of that research we found three books that were very influential. The first is written by a guy named Andrew Hebbin who wrote the book, Ten City Urbanism. Has looked at ten cities and having spent some time in ten cities, both in the military and here. Everything that he talked about, the anthropology of homelessness, if you will, was validated by my own experience. And then I became good friends with a gentleman named Alan Graham. Alan is the executive director of Community First in Austin , so he runs Mobile Loaves and Fishes. They've been providing meals for the homeless on the streets of Austin for about 18 years. And he's created the largest tiny home community in the country called Community First. And we spent a whole day with Alan and his entire team and we still stay in frequent email contact. And then the last is a book that was very important to me is Tribe by a gentleman named Sebastian Nunger who wrote the book, Perfect Storm. And Sebastian spent a lot of time as a war correspondent in Yugoslavia and in Iraq. And talked about how this idea of tribe and that looking at Native Americans and how they lived and how people who often were taken away from European settlements into a Native American tribe often did not go back because of the community that they found there. And that's often the struggle that military members deal with is you grow up in the ethos, you leave high school, you grow up in a very structured military culture. And then one day you're discharged, hopefully with an honorable discharge. And all that structure that you've known most of your adult life is gone. And numerous conversations in my own experience validate that that is often a contributor to the struggles that veterans face is how to integrate into a society that doesn't always have the same values and ethics that they've known since the time they were in high school. So we use those ideas to develop a concept that I want to share with you today. We formed a group of volunteers from several non-profits that you can see there. And we also included homeless veterans in the design. We sought them out very early on and had them participate throughout. And that was really important to us that we do something that is relevant to where they are and not some person's idea that sleeps in a warm, comfortable bed every night. We also, as I mentioned, visited Community First, which is an excellent project. And if you ever get to go to Austin, and it's actually not in Austin, and that's why we're here today, is because the city of Austin, for all its progressiveness, said not no, but hell no. It's literally shares on the city limits of Austin, although Austin takes great credit for it. Initially, Allen and his folks were spit upon in numerous public meetings over this idea. And then there's Hickory Crossing in Dallas. Some of our folks from our homeless leadership team have been to Hickory Crossing. That's probably not what we want to do where we have $100, 000 per unit constructed cost. But it's an example, and sometimes you learn more from your failures than your successes. We met with that leadership team there. And then we connected with lots of other folks across the country that have been working on this. When we started looking at what made sense, what we learned , especially from Andrew Hebbin, who's done a lot of this in Oregon, is that we have to have a non-profit sponsor. That there's got to be some governing organization that provides oversight to this community. And that within the community, the residents themselves form their own council. And that they are given the opportunity to exercise leadership and to govern themselves. We haven't figured out who that's going to be. There's lots of options out there. That would be a discussion point, and I'll get more into that later on. But there'd be a liaison between this organization and the village council. And there would also be volunteers who would want to help out. And we've had a lot of folks express an interest in working and helping the veterans who would be living there as an example. All this would be governed by a village manual, which the Hebbins experience has made very important. That there's got to be some, just as we have our own ordin ances, there's got to be some behaviors that are commonly accepted that everyone lives by. In moving food storage, alcohol and drugs, things like that . One of the process that we looked at in terms of having veterans come into the community would be the veteran reaching out to our community navigators at United Way. And there's a variety of options out there. There's the housing doctors, which are very successful. However, Texas Homeless Net Rules will acknowledge only about 50% of homeless veterans are even eligible to move into those. Either if they have a felony in the past, that's a disqual ifier. Or they just don't want to live in high density housing, which is typically where they're ending up. Shiloh Village would be one option. And other options might be just getting rental real estate or getting a section eight voucher. Go ahead. >> Okay, Council Member Briggs. >> Would this housing be considered permanent housing? >> Yes, it would. >> All right, thank you. >> We're going to get to that in just a second. If a person is identified to go into Shiloh Village, they would go through an intake assessment. And then ultimately sign a lease and sign a community agreement to reside there. And they would actually pay rent. And we'll talk more about that. Part of the key to success in any of these efforts is to create a culture that reinforces the idea. And culture, as anthropologists will often say, is built on shared values and shared norms. And so we would do a very careful job of selecting at least the initial residents to make sure that they are going to buy into this culture. And help them get some training so that they learn to govern themselves well. And when you go to Community First in Austin, they've done an outstanding job of that. They've built this ethos, which is what these guys that are coming out of the services are already used to. It's a natural thing for them to live in a fairly structured environment. And that's what they're missing in their day to day lives. This is the vision statement that we developed for Shiloh Village. It was to be a place where homeless veterans serve themselves, to be a point of liftoff for fringe dwellers, to have a sense of belonging and den, and to fill them with dignity of self-sufficiency and the confidence to arrive as above their own circumstances. I know there's a lot packed into this statement. There's a lot of thought that went into that. And we get into how that is played out in the design that we've developed. But what we've tried to do is blend the intellectual, physical, emotional, and spiritual aspects of life into one location. This is a schematic of the property. The proposed property is at the corner of Old North and M ingo Road. It's a 2.5 acre track, gently sloping from northwest to southeast. And what we did is we first looked at, if you look to the diagram on the right hand side of the slide, have been point in looking at tent cities across the country is that they often form in these semi-circles. Where there's a center area, where there's a campfire, and then there's tents arranged around that area. So we took that same approach and arranged five different sets of housing around one common area. And within that common area, there would be a shared eating area, a community kitchen, as well as an outdoor and indoor eating area. A shared utilities building with bathrooms and laundry. And then a chapel area, as well as a wellness area. And then lastly, there would be also this art pavilion, which is this point of liftoff. Community First does a lot of artwork, and they do so much artwork that at South by Southwest, they annually sell $100,000 worth of art every year from the residents that live in Community First. Let me repeat that. 200 homeless people make art over the year and they sell $ 100,000 of art at South by Southwest. What they then use often to pay their rent. That's the point that we're trying to get to, is empowering people to use their natural gifts and talents to do what they're good at and give them the place to do that. And then lastly, there would be an auxiliary services building. That would be a place where agencies could come in and it could have AA meetings or NA meetings or the veterans navigators could come in or whoever wants to come in and provide services. So within each one of these housing sets would be five homes arranged around a shared porch that they would then feed into the larger plan of the area. Each unit would have similar design, but would be different in size and would either accommodate one or two people. And that was one of the weaknesses that we saw at Community First. Because if you go there, they had four different architectural teams come up with different designs. And you'll see one type of unit over here in a very different architectural style right next to it. And it gives you some cognitive dissonance there to see all that in one place. So we didn't want that to be a mishmash. We wanted it to be something when people drove by, they're going to be very proud of it. And so that's why we went with the approach that we did. This is the proposed site layout. It has a parking lot, dumpster for both trash, recycling, and compost. We'll talk more about composting in a second. There would be a guard shack, paths leading to the different units. The pie-shaped structure is the chapel town council meeting room. There would be these four skid sets along the top. The bottom one was for towed units, which we've eliminated. The auxiliary services building G would have a breezeway in between. So one side would be for group meetings, the other side would be for offices. The building that you see in the middle, the end, it would be the outdoor eating area. And then the community kitchen, bathrooms, and laundry. All interconnected with trials. And then that circle in the middle is that lift off point where folks could come in and learn a skill or practice something they've already learned and be successful. It's bordered by trees on the north and on the west. And then Mingo Road to the south and east. We already worked this through Lee Allison. We put in a retention pond to meet drainage requirements. And then up in the northeast corner is a community garden and fitness trail that we've laid in there. So the idea is to provide a place for 20 or so veterans to come live here permanently. They would have a lease. They would pay about $350 a month for that apartment or that home. And if they're on disability, that's well within what they can afford to live on using this design. This is an example of one of the units. We have five individual designs. These were all done by an interior design student at UNT. We ended up being the number one student in our class. One of the things that the veterans really talked about is the struggle they have with claustrophobia and feeling enclosed. So we put in four foot wide doors that were glass doors with low E glass, lots of windows. A porch was very important to them. A place to sit and just relax and be at their home but be outside. We also put in a lot of vegetative cover so that it has that green effect of shade and just makes it more pleasing during the summer and fall. Interior would be, for this one unit, would have a seating for two and a dining room table. A small kitchen with a sink, a microwave. There would not be a stove. We'll talk more about that in a second. A closet, a bathroom with a hand wash sink and a composting toilet. Before you cringe about composting toilets, they've advanced significantly in technology. So part of what folks would do is enter their composting toilet into the composting bin and that would be then recycled through the city. The box that you see to the right there is the doghouse. Very important feature. Every unit has a doghouse inside. And then a bed, twin bed, plus a seating area and the porch that you see. That's all for just over 300 square feet. There's a cross section of the units just to give you some scale there. And then this is how we'd finish them out. Subway tiles, the composting toilet, lots of natural wood finished. Pastels, greens, grays, browns. And we call that the blessed nest. That's our largest size unit. The smallest unit is 180 square feet. This is the community building that we've talked about. The washer and dryers would be in one room. The whole idea here is to share those common utilities. So we're not having to run utility lines to every unit. We're reducing those costs, we're concentrating uses and folks are very comfortable with that. When you go to community first, they've done the same thing . And it's not just sharing utilities, it's also providing places for people to have those random interactions day to day to see each other walk into and from showers. Having lived in encampments in Saudi Arabia and Iraq and Bahrain, that's just how you live. Everyone walks to the shower and walks back. Everyone walks to the chow hall and walks back. This is not new to veterans. This is how they've lived often overseas. So next steps. Well, what we're hoping to do is we've been working very closely with Manal and Ron Magida and they've been outstanding in their support. We've had some very lengthy conversations. And I also want to recognize another gentleman, Ty Albright , who's been working with me on this. He couldn't be here today. But our hope is to introduce an idea next that would allow Shiloh Village to move forward in an experiment, if you will, to see if this is something that we could do then on a larger scale basis with the proper protections for the community in the way of an SUP and possibly an overlay. And then work through these different processes using these three different tracks of city approval, village design, Lee Allison and Mike Bates have agreed to do the design pro bono. We're looking at some technologies. One of the issues that came up is because we're below 500 square feet in size, we can't be considered a dwelling. So we would be considered a sleeping unit. The code requires us to have fire suppression systems in there. We've actually identified some technology that would allow us to do that using residential water pressure that would be very effective and not obtrusive or expensive . So working through those issues and getting to the point where we could bring a project for final approval to you all. And then at the same time to begin those conversations with interested organizations to provide that oversight and to handle fiscal sponsorship. Councilmember Briggs had a question. Is this mostly just for living purposes only or will you guys be providing any wraparound services? Well, that's probably what the nonprofit would do is provide some potentially wraparound services. Right. So I'm just trying to bring the structure and then teaming up with other agencies that are already possibly in the space that would provide the oversight and provide some services. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Is that it? Oh, yes, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Thank you, Mr. Smith. Thank you, sir. I'm very happy to be presenting this and I want to thank the agenda committee of the council for putting this on a work session. I'd ask that we have this session and hear from Mr. Smith because I've heard this proposal and I know that currently he is working with staff. And I thought that it might be good for the council to have a chance to really hear what he's talking about and for the staff to have a chance to give their perspective on this. So that the council could give some feedback to both groups . Because I would hate for any of them to be working for weeks and months and bring it to council. And we find some areas that we have some significant problems with that if we could speak about this and have a discussion about this earlier rather than later, that it could give staff and Mr. Smith's group some direction as to areas that we would be very agreeable. And if there are any areas that we have any sort of concerns about. So I simply mention this as we hear the staff presentation that comes up next that we could think about what our concerns are and then be able to share those. So that as Mr. Smith's group moves forward with staff, that staff has a notion as to what the comfort level is of the council. Any other questions? We may have some after the staff presentation. So thank you, Pat. >> Your honor, Mr. Council. Thank you, Pat. That passion was what we heard when we met with Pat early last year. He's brought this item forward. And when he brought it forward, we didn't know what to expect. But he has worked through it. We've kind of worked with him through the process. The first time we met with him, his vision was at first to us was tiny houses. And we all kind of, okay, what are we doing with tiny houses? So we found a way, we hope, oops, kind of jumped ahead of my presentation here. A way that we hope that can meet their intent as well as protect the community through this process. So you've heard already a lot about the project. As Pat mentioned, it's on the corner of Old North and Mingo Road, approximately 2.5 acres. Current zoning of the property is NRMU, neighborhood residential mixed use. So one of the things that we discussed when we heard about this development and his proposal to bring in tiny houses and understanding more about the project. It wasn't about tiny houses, it was about the community and about co-living or co-development. And so we started to study that aspect of it. And as we did our research, we learned that co-housing was obviously more residential in nature and we tried to find a use. But we couldn't find a use because of what is being proposed and Pat mentioned it earlier. This particular development or unit won't have a kitchen and it won't have a full bathroom. Therefore, it does not qualify as a residential unit. Therefore, it could not qualify as a residential development. So we had to look outside the box and co-housing can be a part of it if we looked at these units as sleeping units. And that's sort of where we're trying to go forward with this proposal. Is to look at co-housing as the main development of this particular project. But through an overlay, and I'll get into that a little bit more, allow the uses and the types of units that Pat and his team is proposing. Just a real quick slide on co-housing. It's meant for a small community. It's meant to have smaller home sizes. It's to increase the interaction amongst the neighborhood and all to share those common needs such as the dining area or the gathering area and the community gardens and that sort of thing is part of what co-housing is about. So because this project is unique and again as mentioned earlier, it doesn't really fit a particular land use, residential land use category, we kind of went through a number of different options. And these are the four options that we've discussed. Probably the last one won't be an option for this project just because the unit would have to be one with a kitchen and with a bathroom and that's not what this project is about. So four would not be something for this particular project would fit. I'm just going to go from the bottom up, the commercial land use is another option where we would create a land use and it would be specifically a commercial land use again that would allow the sleeping units. But we thought about not doing that because that would open up more possibilities and we really wanted just to focus on the uniqueness of this project. And again, that's why we're leaning towards more of the overlay option. Option two was discuss, this is a PD option. Of course, we don't have a PD option currently in our DDC. That's something that we would have to create. We felt that would take too long and that would be similar to an overlay district. So why don't we do an overlay district? So that's where we are currently. We are proposing that we use an overlay district to facilitate this development and allow it to occur through this process. Go ahead, Council Member Gary. On option, the last option on the last page, I'm sorry I missed it. What is the current minimum floor area requirement for multifamily? It's 500. Okay, and that's including internal bathrooms as opposed to what this is proposing? All livable space, yes. Okay, thank you. So an overlay district, just for background, it's for the protection as well as the enhancement of certain areas, be it by the specific land use or special land use or land and/or structure. The process of getting an overlay district follows the zoning amendment process, which goes through the Planning Zoning Commission and ultimately City Council. Some examples of an overlay district, as we've already heard in the past, a five street overlay district, unicorn lake overlay district, razor range overlay district. These are examples of overlay districts. These are examples of special areas in the city and what they have is a special purpose, a statement purpose, a distinct boundary, as well as distinct design standards that follow each of these overlay districts. I think that is my last slide. Again, that is where we're trying to go with this and we're seeking council's direction and be happy to answer any questions. >> We're gonna go with Councilmember Riggs and Mayor Pro Tem and then Councilmember Hawkins. >> So I know that this presentation is specifically for this development and in question. But say, I mean, I've heard others that want tiny homes and have, say, you bought land and you wanted to put in your own tiny home and they do have a kitchen. How would this address those people? Would they be able to do that in our city? >> Would that be on a separate property, their own property or? >> Right, yeah, I mean, just a tiny home in general for somebody who can't really afford to build a one or two bedroom home ground up, but wanted a home and had the property to put it on. >> And had all the kitchen and the bathroom. They would be allowed to as long as they met the minimum square footage. That's the issue that we had initially for a single family, it's 900 square feet. For a multi-family development, that would be a 500 square foot minimum. >> So this would not touch the issue that still lies that we don't allow tiny homes? >> Correct, this is specific and that's what we're here for . >> In our city, okay, thank you. >> Mayor Pro Tem. >> The uniqueness of this in that you're centralizing some of the kind of the basic services that a house would have, kitchen, bathroom, not just the bathroom but the shower units. It kind of reminds me of the issue we have in some cases with homeowner's associations where there's kind of centralized amenities and the homeowner's association goes under or goes away. And there's a question of ownership, who keeps up with this , there's green space. We have some issues in certain neighborhoods in town as it relates to that. How does an overlay protect that issue? I mean, this whole project is contingent upon there being some centralized management that's we trust is keeping up with those things that we would otherwise require to have in a unit. >> Right. >> And can an overlay even touch on management issues? Can it touch on this must be in place long term, here's what we're concerned about in order to keep up with these centralized things that aren't under the control of each individual leasy. >> Do you want to see if Aaron can answer or do you like for me to answer? >> My guess is no, but I don't know. >> We try to stay out of the way they manage the business itself. The furthest that we've gone under any similar type of developments is the concept of an HOA or some type of other association. It's part of the management process of the individual development to show us that they have these rules and regulations in effect. But that's about the furthest that we've ventured into their actual operations. >> Yeah, so to me, I think, obviously I know and trust the people kind of putting this forward, but you'd have to think 20 years down the line or what happens when that management structure changes or goes away . We're comfortable hypothetically with not providing kitchen space, showers and things like that in that insofar as we're comfortable with the arrangement that makes sure that stuff is kept up outside of that. I don't know how you address that legally, so I just throw that out as something as we'd have to think about. I don't think it's unovercomparable, but it's probably something in the city's best interest as we're looking at it. >> Just to add to what Aaron mentioned, our current standards, our subdivision standards, there is a section there that talks about having an HOA. We review the start of it, obviously we can't control it once it's in place. If that was some other concern of the council, that is something that we would consider as part of an overlay standard or regulation to place. >> Councilmember Hawkins and then Councilmember Wasney. >> Thank you, Mayor. Within the overlay, a question kind of about infrastructure , and I know that Pat had talked about composting toilets and that sort of thing. >> Right. >> Is a sewer system still required with all that ? >> When Pat brought that up, and that was a big question, I immediately called our building official. And according to our building official, that's something that is acceptable. So if they can do that, they would have to do what Pat said . But just know that's just for the unit itself. They would still be required to provide sewer system or sewer lines for the main kitchen, the main shower, those other buildings would still require a sewer service. >> Is that already addressed in our code? Like you can do that right now, or is that only addressed in the new overlay that we put on top of this project? >> As far as the compost? >> As far as not having direct sewer to each individual unit, I was just curious about that. >> I'll have to defer that to our building official, but according to the building code, that's acceptable. >> Is it really? Okay, good, thank you. >> Councilmember Wasney. >> I know you're looking for council direction, but I think it's premature at this stage to be asking for council direction because in one week we have almost a 50% changeover of city council membership. So I also think it's premature because we haven't had any neighborhood meetings to allow the community at large, not just a neighborhood meeting, but the community of Denton at large, and the reason I say that is that this is such a total departure from the Denton Development Code, which is standard procedure in terms of development in this city. Standard procedure when you are a homeowner or you are a developer coming to develop in the city of Denton . There are rules you have to follow and communities have rules for a reason. I'm not saying I'm against this project. I'm saying I believe it needs to be vetted further getting community education, community input. I think there's a benefit in having all of those comments come into council members before they actually give direction on this. And again, I state I think it's premature because this should be the incoming council's decision, not the outgoing . But I'm just so strong on having community input to be able to say, because it's a departure from development code is basically the law. >> Sure. >> And so when you're coming forward with a project that is so different from what we have on the books now, and I understand it's an overlay. I understand that. But I also understand that it's a departure, a huge departure from established norm. So I think it's premature for this council to jump in and give either one through four. I appreciate the presentation today on both parts. But I think it's too early for this council to actually make a bold step. >> Councilmember Gregory. >> Thank you. I just think that this is a great example of Mr. Smith and his team doing what he's done before, which is coming up with creative solutions to problems. We have some folks in town that are good at identifying problems. In fact, some seem to major in that. That's all they do is identify problems. But to have some folks that actually come up with and propose solutions is great. And I think that the concept that he's offering is smart in so many different ways. And a lot of cities that have been successful at addressing the homeless start with looking at veterans and they start with, they look at housing first options. I'm grateful to the staff that you guys didn't just slam the door, because it doesn't fit in the DDC. That you guys have been talking, that you've been looking for options, that you've presented several different possible ways forward. And I'm very appreciative to that. I think that the notion of having some neighborhood meetings or some community wide meetings to get further input as we move forward is a very appropriate suggestion to do. In terms of premature, I don't know that we'll even be ready at this time next year, given the way that some things go. So there's always going to be council changes from year to year, from week to week. Well, not from week to week, but hopefully not. >> Maybe so. >> Who knows? But I think to get some input from council as to continue to move forward and the next step being the neighborhood meetings, I think would be appropriate. I think it's also appropriate. I will tell you, I've heard discussions about similar types of community living arrangements similar to this, from folks who are currently living in 18 to 28,000 square foot homes, who are in my age bracket and looking to downsize so that they don't have to clean as much. They still want their own kitchens, but looking at smaller homes in the 7 to 900 square foot range. And having a community common area where they could gather for discussion groups or craft projects or things like that. Interestingly, and I know that some folks are going to be a little reluctant to talk about things such as tiny homes because this seems to be such a f ad. But we have some tiny homes, one in the 1500 block of North Elm Street on the east side. One in the 1000 block of North Locust Street on the west side. Tiny homes that have been there since the 1940s. And nobody even knows that they're there. And certainly nobody is bothered by the fact that we have homes that have bathrooms, kitchens, and living areas that have been there and that have been certainly smaller than 900 square feet. And have provided some good housing alternatives for folks who can't afford to rent a large house. And I think that as we move forward, we're going to need to address that again. Because that provides some additional housing options that we've been discussing in a more comprehensive picture of affordable housing. And in the future, new housing is going to have to be smaller to remain affordable, especially if people are interested in home ownership. So I would hope, I thank you for doing this. And I encourage you to move forward with your work with the team. And to follow Ms. Wasney's suggestion of setting up some neighborhood meetings. >> Sure. >> And again, it doesn't have to be just limited to one neighborhood. There could be some community wide meetings to get input. >> Okay, let me make sure I got the cue. Thank you, Council Member Hawkins and then Pro Tem. But I do have one question for clarification. Did you say you have friends living in 18,000 and 28,000 square foot homes? >> 1800 and 28,000. >> Okay, I wanted to make sure because- >> I was wondering why everybody was wondering. >> Okay. >> I don't have any friends that have that kind of money. >> Okay, all right, just point of clarification. >> Thank you for clarifying. >> Yes, sir. Yes, sir, no problem. Council Member Hawkins. >> After Dalton's filibuster there, I don't know if I remember what I'm gonna say. Usually Kathleen does the filibusters, not Dalton. >> But I didn't repeat myself. >> Just to address what Councilwoman Wasney was saying, I kind of struggled with giving direction too, because I won't be sitting here in a couple weeks. But if every time the city government changed, we'd have to kind of freeze and nothing would get done. So although I agree with everything else you said, this does need to be vetted more. >> Sure. >> This is a great idea and we need neighborhood input. But I love that every other week, Pat Smith is up there wearing a different hat, but it's kind of the big hat still is the same hat. And I really appreciate this out of the box thinking and I think that this is kind of an exciting thing. There are a lot of things though about it that need to be v etted, definitely. What I was talking about with infrastructure and that sort of thing. Kevin brought up a great point 20 years from now. Who's governing this thing? What does it look like? Who lives there and those sorts of things. So if I'm giving direction, I'd like to move forward, but definitely engage neighborhood, engage everybody you can on this one, so thank you. >> Will do. >> Mayor Pro Tem and then. >> Yeah, I really appreciate the innovative thought. I mean, I think as a community, we're going to have to think of housing, accessory structures, how we build density in established neighborhoods in terms of adding on to people's property. I think a lot of cities are going in that direction. Tiny homes is going to be something we're going to have to tackle. So I think we need to keep thinking about it to the extent that this can have its hooks in on some of those things. It's helpful. I did have a question and I wonder, does our code have a place for something like a camp ground facility? I'm thinking of like a place that would have like cabins and then shared. Do we already have that in the code that would? >> We looked into that, we have outdoor recreation as a lane use. But I thought those would not fit what Pat was doing. So it may address what you're referring to, but for this particular project, that didn't fit what we were trying to do with this project . >> I'm just trying to, it seems like there's, I've stayed at similar places and camp facilities. And if there's already something existing in the code that prevented us from having to do a lot of unnecessarily creative code. >> Right, no, certainly it was more of a temporary versus a more permanent setting. >> Yeah, people are staying for a week versus a whole year. Okay, thanks. >> Council Member Riggs is queued up and then we'll go to, did you have, oh you do? Okay. >> Go ahead. >> Go ahead, yeah, because I'm. >> Are we going around? >> No, but. Okay, go ahead, Council Member Gary, then Riggs, and then Washington. >> I should remember that the way to get called on is to just not say anything and then jump in. I agree with Councilwoman Wasney that we need more neighborhood input first. They might have some ideas as well, so I'll just say maybe sending out a notice that expands very broadly. There's three neighborhoods that I saw on Google Maps that would probably be affected. So there's kind of the Mohican area, Stockton, Oakshire area, and then Mistywood, Chubby, that type of area. So. >> Those neighborhoods are well over half a mile away. >> Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, I say that because I've been to Dignity Village in Portland and it is a small site itself. But it does have kind of a larger impact than a typical site. >> It does. >> So that's the reason I say maybe just draw some wider boundaries for notification. >> Okay, we can do that. >> Councilmember Riggs and then Councilmember Washington. >> So on this, I think it's a great project. It looks really nice. It's a good solution. I agree on community involvement. And I have put some things out there and the feedback has been pretty positive so far from citizens. I would just ask, set this aside though, I would like for future council to take a look at reducing the square footage requirement. Because I think that is a bigger issue and can impact more people besides just this project. >> Councilmember Washington. >> Back to my point of community involvement. This isn't just a neighborhood discussion. This is a city of Denton discussion. Because the Denton Development Code covers the entire city. It includes a development community. It includes all interested citizens. So I think there just needs to be general shout out to the city. We have a community meeting either in our council chamber or at civic center. And I know that our chamber has overhead projection and good microphones. And you can just hear better in our council chamber than you can in the civic center. So I think this needs to be different than just send out some post cards and have some neighborhoods on the shoulder. This needs to be city wide because it needs to be a city discussion. Because it is such a departure from the Denton Development Code. And so that would be my recommendation and better to go big and broad. >> Sure. >> Than to try to circle back later and say, well, we should have, we could have. Let's do it right the first time. Have a big meeting. Invite people. We do this when it impacts a whole city. And this, everybody needs to be aware and I think a lot of good ideas will come forward. I think questions will come up that we're not even thinking about or addressing. So that's my recommendation. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, any other comments? Just got a couple. We got about 20 minutes before breaks. I'm gonna take 20 minutes. Just kidding. >> Well, I'll tell you, all these are good suggestions. Of course, I don't think there was any doubt that planning and Pat's group would be reaching out to the community. Really, that's what we're doing here as well today. I mean, this is being televised. These are the duly elected representatives of this city. Even though some are going to be lame ducked as of today, this discussion is still going to be carried out there. So I don't think these are sort of linear kind of action items. I think you can reach out. I think you can schedule community meetings. You can schedule neighborhood meetings. At the same time, you can begin to further explore how this really would fit in. I know we've been talking a lot about affordable housing, housing our homeless vets. We did get ten veteran vouchers, but that's not enough. We need more. I know that Pat has been spearheading this particular, I remember when this vision first was birthed and it's really began to grow. And so I'm in support of moving forward on a couple of fronts. One is the suggestions of community outreach because this is in its infancy. I mean, the direction today isn't go forth and multiply, so to speak, is hey, we want to move forward with this concept. Doesn't mean that somewhere down the road, there might be some things we have to have a little bit further discussion about. And I'm sure with the new council, we'll be having plenty of discussion as these things continue to develop. So I think that's, is that the direction that I'm hearing? I mean, certainly we want to incorporate. I don't think, Council Member Walsh, I don't think what I'm hearing you say is, don't talk anymore about this project or this concept until we have these meetings. I hear you saying, hey, let's make sure those are on the front end of this development process, not on the middle or on the back end. So I think everybody's in agreement with that, quite frankly. Because these are needed. There is a, that's a good question that Mayor Pro Tem brings up about. How will this be managed when all this sort of originators have moved to different places or moved on in different, so we have to really consider the sustainability of this type of project. I mean, that's really the key here. It's easy to get it off the ground. It's how do we sustain it? Because if it's not sustainable, then it's really not solving an issue. So I think that was a good point. You feel like you have adequate direction? >> Yeah, so just real quick. We'll refine our option and include the discussion we had here. Prior to scheduling a community wide meeting, we'll have something prepared, of course. And after we receive input and comments from those individuals, we'll bring it back to city council for further discussion. >> Okay, great. Any other questions for staff or for Mr. Smith and his presentation? I do have one. On the multifamily, I'm glad you took off number four because you don't want people building a bunch of apartment buildings with only 300 square feet in them. And that's what would have happened with that particular situation. And then as far as the composting toilets, I really don't know much about those. If somebody could just send out an informal staff report about how that works. They have them all over the place, recreational areas and remote campgrounds and things such as that. So I mean, if we're gonna be looking at that, especially if it's gonna be part of the development code where other people can do that, I certainly would like to be able to have a little bit. No Dalton, no. I'm gonna cut you off on point order. No, I see the look on your face. We're not going. I don't know what you're gonna say, but I can tell. Yeah, yeah. Okay, any other questions, comments? All right, thank you very much. I can always, Dalton gives himself away. All right, we'll go on to our next agenda item, work session item, which is agenda item 2B. Receive report and hold discussion, give staff direction regarding redevelopment of the property at 101 South Locust . Good afternoon, mayor and council members. I am going to be discussing a potential redevelopment of the Wells Fargo building and associated lots today. Now, I want to preface this by saying that downtown rede velopment projects, especially large scale downtown redevelopment projects, generally generate a lot of interest in the community. And I think that's good, and I think it's important to bring this forward to you all with some initial information and initiate the discussion. So that's the way we're gonna go forward. My presentation is pretty short. More information was included in your backup. And I do want to say that staff from numerous city departments are here to answer questions at the end of the presentation, as well as representatives from Jack Bell Properties and the Helms Hotel Group. Jack Bell Properties has acquired the four lots associated with the Wells Fargo building at 101 South Locust. And I'm gonna use my mouse, I should look at the screen here. So this is the tower building. This is the ATM lot. And these are the two parking lots associated with the property. The owner is proposing three possible scenarios for rede velopment. And I'm gonna go through those here and highlight the lots in question as we discuss them. The first one is the existing building only, which you see highlighted there. This would entail an interior remodel to include offices in the basement and on floors one through three and seven. Luxury apartments on floors four through six and an event center on floor eight. The exterior will be updated, but the developer is still discussing the specifics of what's being considered for the exterior changes. The next option is the building and the lots only, or what we're gonna refer to as the actual site, what's actually owned by Jack Bell Properties. That option would include an interior remodel that I just described, as well as exterior changes to the tower. This option would also add a 70 to 80 room boutique hotel at the corner of Austin and Hickory. That would be right here with a three to four story parking garage attached to that hotel to the south here. In this option, the hotel would be taller than what's gonna be proposed in the next option you will hear, because the footprint will be smaller. I know that seems a little bit out of order, but we can come back to it if you want more clarification on that. The next element of this particular option would be a four to five story, 48 unit multifamily housing building here with a sky bridge connecting it to the parking garage here that would go over Austin Street. That garage would have 272 planned spaces and parking would be for Jack Bell's properties only. Now, there is some question out in the community about the parking requirements for these types of projects. And it's my understanding from the folks in planning that in the central business district, unless it's a type of multifamily in this case, there is no additional parking requirement. So the other part of planning estimates that 100 acquired by the Denton Development Code for this particular option. 272 spaces for the garage, 127 would be required under our development code. The building, the lots, and Williams Trade Square are what we're gonna, this would include that interior remodel of the house in size to 80 to 100 rooms. It would be in the same spot, Williams Trade Square lot for the design. This option would have multifamily housing including three stories over the proposed garage, which in this option, the garage would be located here. This trade square site with 519 spaces including 102 to replace the existing public parking spaces that are on that site. And under this scenario, the Denton Development Code would require 310 parking spaces for the project. 1000 square feet of retail restaurant or office space here on the front of the garage along Hickory. The final element of this project would be the requested abandonment of Austin Street for the construction of a park here in between developer requests that are maintained by the developer and- >> I mean, this is very preliminary, but do we have any idea what the estimate is on those park fees ? >> I don't have that number at hand. I don't know if any of our- >> It's not we get it somewhere . >> I can follow up with that. So to do a preliminary revenue comparison is city only tax revenue. The building only option, this is actually the current on the ground building, slightly over 30 increase somewhat under the redevelopment scenario. Even if it is just the building without knowing exactly how the base in value is not as much as. So that when we're being very conservative and just presenting the current. Which would be squares only. We're talking about $292,000 revenue. And the large site option would be a new hotel occupancy tax revenue and sales tax from the potential rent. >> About the large site option. >> Sure. >> Regarding that. Does that revenue anticipate the city selling the Williams? >> Revenue only, not continental lease income, as tax revenue. >> So what is the large site option for renting the property from the city? >> Well- >> Councilmember. >> I understood when I read the backup. So the green side is Williams Square, which is our parking lot. >> Yes. >> The orange sites are, in the backup there was some type of silver there that may have been a trade. >> I'll mention that, but yes, orange piece jogs out into the green piece that's not a true straight boundary line. The developer has requested that straightening up that boundary line with, even if the lease of Williams Trade Square was not moved. So with the green site option or the third option, which is the largest site, where would the hotel be located and what would be placed? >> Mostly right here, but there was some late breaking information on Friday that the hotel partner, their preferred design would take a little bit of this and bump the garage over slightly, so it would just be a question of taking this little part. >> Rather than having the garage in the sky green section? >> Yes. >> And the garage is only for Jack Bell property? >> No, and the third option, the garage includes the 102 public parkings and then the rest of the garage would park Mr. Bell's project. >> So then what would go in that center, the lower center apartments? >> I think I might have not gotten to that before I moved on to the revenue part. Thank you for the prompt. >> So revenue- >> I'm sure these guys are over here going, we left out this huge part of our project, sorry. Would be, I said that 164 units of multi- >> Do you have the schematic of the- >> I do. >> Revised proposed site plan? >> Of the revised hotel? >> Well not any, but past, beyond, getting the backup. Do we have- >> I'll see it okay. Okay, so if you remember in the large site, this retail and potential restaurant space bumped out a little. >> Mayor Pro Tem? >> I guess my first question, then maybe the, if you, in your presentation. >> Just trying to make it bigger. My gosh. >> Well public parking lot, because it is after hours. So west of that, correct? So in the bringing back of the same parking spots that are being taken out of, they're only thinking- >> That's correct. >> So there's a net with that, at least that being negotiated or something like that. Because there's a perception that that's a public lot as it is now, because it acts as that. I'm going to continue the discussions. Some problems, one is Wells Fargo needs updated. And the thought of that being more prominent on our downtown. Downtown Hotel is something I get at Fort Debrinker. They want to be, that would be a pretty great. Plus you get this hickory, lacks this street walking from the square. The possibility of getting streetscape, additional retail, I think solves a real walkability issue that we have on that corridor. because you have a big gap in a dense urban environment. You want to add streetscape to that. So to me it solves three or four different problems. So I think there's a problem of continuing that conversation. >> Councilmember Hawkins? >> Yeah, I definitely am a fan of this too. The parking address, you know, I haven't a restaurant on that corner too. I want there to feel like there's ample parking needs that badly. >> So continuing the conversation, my last work session item. So getting addressed. So definitely move. >> I too like the idea. I think he would rent them. And we probably need to have a closed center that a hundred demand, not less and less, as Councilmember Rodin pointed out. >> Yet there are people downtown. So single business owner. We have some additional and that's just my only, you know, caution really careful on working spots as we, so we need to be smart with whatever we. >> A couple comments. One, that deed transferred? Has it, the deed is not transferred? All right. All right, good. Don't have any details on this, which is primarily when it 's really needed from the public going to have to be accounted for. I have observations and concerns about Austin Street closure and also properties look. Been some discussion for the Wells Fargo building that part of the plan. I think that's some of the things that we still have to flush out is exactly what, what are the details of this? And I think this is right. Quite honestly, it says large site option at 418,000. But I'm looking, there was a, I think it was some of the backup or May 9th, the other agenda information sheet, assuming the large site Wells Fargo building valued at 3.7 million, 3 million right now, at least the proposed 2017. And it's got the apartments valued at certain dollars per parking garage, Ed Lauren. Hotel, motel sales tax out of the 900,000 that's projected on the sheet. On the difference there. >> Okay, we'll go back and look at. >> Yeah, point of, I think with the next council and with this project and certainly with tax freeze what's happening at the legislative session , the new council, whoever, we need to have a conversation about the TIF, the downtown TIF. What's its purpose? Is it still fulfilling its purpose? Has it done what it was supposed to do? Is it still premature? Is it something that we can do but have a little bit greater option and flexibility with some of those funds? I think it's just time to have a very comprehensive huge project. And to put and sequester it, I love that word, to sequester it to where it's not available to other city services. It's all of our own money. I've been saying this ever since it was passed. So it's, I think this would be a very good opportune time to do that. Not saying it necessarily, I mean I certainly have an idea to discuss in that regard. Don't have an issue with the concept. This is additional parking that has been mentioned in here to not do away. Austin Street closure, it's from what I remember on the options. The Austin Street closure has to happen for options. If you just did the Wells Fargo building, you can leave it open. But if you do the smaller option or the larger option to be closed, or is it still staying open? >> Mark, I'm sorry, Mark, speak into the mic so the folks at home can hear you. >> Mark Martin. Austin Street, if it was open, it'll work on all three options. So it works on all three. We actually, Jack had actually seen an article in the Dallas paper. And that's kind of where we got the idea from. >> Sure, sure. >> So. >> And so just to point out that if we went with the smaller option, which left Williams Square intact as is. Those parking spaces that are the Wells Fargo lot are lost, because that's where the hotel and the parking garage is. >> You're correct. >> That's right. >> Okay. >> Council Member Briggs. >> So I have a few points here. I'm excited about a hotel downtown. I think that's something we've needed for a really long time. Just two things I would like more information on. The William Trade Square deed is pretty strict from what I remember. And I would just like to have an outside attorney weigh in on that before we make any, or before I feel comfortable making any decisions regarding that lot. I'm not necessarily in favor of the large parking garage. I'm just, I'm concerned about it affecting the historical aspect of downtown. But I would request and would like our preservation officer , Roman, to work on this project with the developers. It would make me feel a little more comfortable about the design of it, if that's the case. And I'm in favor of Austin Street staying open. So that's my direction. >> Man, I wish I could still be on council and have that discussion about the downtown TIF. You just waited till I go off. You see your path forward. But maybe I'll still show up for those discussions. >> I'll come back. >> But I will encourage, and this is a suggestion. >> And stay on topic. >> Yes. >> I'm going to be with this guy. We're going to get carried out together. No, but I would encourage in the context of that conversation, you guys do what you want. But to review back the downtown implementation plan, which called out the TIF initially, because it was part of larger goals. And I just say that because I went back to it in thinking about this question of preserving character in terms of what's the facades of these buildings. What does it look like? Because so much of that DTIP was premised on understanding new development was going to come downtown. We're going to have this new form-based coding that's going to help guide that. >> Right. >> And we've been very lucky. I think we've been very lucky and we've had other ways of encouraging the types of new development projects that we want. But this one I think we've got a connection with because they're going to want something from us to get it. So I think we'll be able to help encourage that. But guys, we're going to continue to see this. And I think to not have something in place that are tools in our toolbox to be able to guide what this stuff looks like is going to be important. So probably not able to get that in place before this project, but something to think about long term. >> Okay, great. Any other comments, questions? Sounds like the direction is continue the conversation and more will be revealed as the discussion continues. >> That sounds very exciting. >> Yes. >> Yes. Stay tuned for more details. Thank you very much and watch for informal staff reports in future work sessions. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> All right, I believe that concludes our open work session. Do I have my sheet? We will now convene in closed session at 3.35 PM on Tuesday , May the 9th, 2017. We will consider the following items, consultation with attorneys under Texas Government Code Section 551.071. >> Good afternoon, wanted to welcome everybody back to this meeting of the Denton City Council. We will now, following the completion of our work session, will convene in an open, special called open session at 4. 25 on Tuesday, May the 9th. Going through our consent agenda, we have had one consent agenda item pulled, which is item 1B. I don't think we're going to need a staff presentation on that. So we will pull that off so Chair would entertain. Yes, Council Member Gregory. >> Thank you, Mayor. I would move approval of consent agenda items A, C, and D. >> Okay. Mayor Pro Tem. >> Second. >> All right, we have a motion and a second for approval of consent agenda items A through D, except for B, which will take up in items for individual consideration following this vote. Everybody in favor, please signify by raising your right hand. Passes unanimously. We will now take up consent agenda item B as an item of individual consideration. I do not believe there's a staff presentation. Council Member Briggs. >> Can I ask a question? >> Of course. >> On the presentation from the distance, there was natural screening like the shrubbery. The people that spoke earlier mentioned that they're going to be looking at it from a different angle, which will be closer to them. So that natural screening will not help them. Is there anything, any kind of screening that we can do since you moved it further back from the neighbors on any of those sides with shrubbery or? >> Excuse me. I think we've, I can work with staff as far as we've put the edge of the substation all the way forward, far as north as we could. We could move it back down some and leave some room to put, since the transmission lines are coming in and out of the south, we can certainly do something to put something along that north side. >> Keep some greenery and, okay. Thank you. >> Okay. >> Council Member Hawkins. >> Thank you, Mayor. I move approval of consent agenda item B. Council Member Gregory. >> Second. >> All right. We have a motion and a second for consent agenda item B as in Baker. All in favor signify by raising your right hand. All opposed by like sign. Motion carries six to one. All right, we'll go on down to our items for individual consideration. Items 2A, consider adoption of ordinance of the city of Denton, Texas amending the fiscal year 2016 budget and annual program of services. I know this is going to be quick. >> Very quick, Mayor. There's three items we're amending. One of them is related to the next two items. That's the downtown reinvestment fund. Amending that for an additional 20,000 to give the council consideration of the two items below for those two additional grants that are under consideration. A second is to amend the library donation fund. We budgeted them at 50,000 in donations this year and 50, 000 expenditures. They've received some larger donations and would like the authority to spend an additional 20,000 for some additional furniture out of their donation fund. And the third item is based on direction from council at last week's work session regarding the cemetery fencing. So that would amend the general fund budget by 375,000 to allow them to go forward with all those three fencing projects with the funds they have available plus the 375, 000. >> Okay, all right. Council member Gregory. >> I have approval of item 2A. >> Council member Wasney. >> I second the motion. >> All in favor, agenda item 2A, signify by raising your right hand. Motion carries unanimously. >> Okay, agenda item 2B, it's considered adoption of ordinance approving a grant application from John Withers representing WithHIC LLC. >> I do have a presentation if you'd like to see it. However, you did see this in your work session on April the 18th. So I would be happy to answer any questions. You might have nothing has changed since you looked at this two weeks ago. >> Any questions? All right, chair would entertain motion. Mayor Pro Tem. >> Mayor, I move approval of item, is it two? >> 2B. >> Council member Hawkins. >> I second. >> We have a motion to second for agenda item 2B. Let's vote. Everybody signify by raising your right hand if you approve . Motion, okay, all signify opposition. Okay, that's right. Yes, okay. Motion carries six to one. Apologize, Council member Gary. >> Apologize. >> Agenda item 2C. Same consideration. >> Same thing. >> Any questions for staff? >> Same thing as you have seen before. >> Mayor Pro Tem. >> Mayor, I move approval of agenda item 2C. >> Council member Hawkins. >> I'll second. >> All right, we have a motion to second for agenda item 2C . All in favor, please signify by raising your right hand. All opposed by like sign. Motion carries six one. We have agenda item 2D as in David. Consider approval of resolution of the city of Denton, Texas, evidencing no objection to the proposed new construction of the standard at Med Park. >> Good afternoon, Mayor Watts, council members. >> Is this your first presentation? >> This is my first presentation. >> Okay, great, fantastic. >> At the last council work session on May 2nd, staff presented a request from the Denton Housing Authority in partnership with a private developer for two 4% tax credit housing developments called the standard at Med Park station and the Hudson at Med Park station. The Denton Housing Authority is requesting resolutions of no objection from the council to submit with their application to HUD by the deadline of May 17th. Since the last council work session, staff has worked on a number of items. The first being to reach out to the Denton Housing Authority to see if they could provide more detailed information in response to the questions asked last week. Due to the tight turnaround, the Denton Housing Authority wasn't able to provide much detailed information, but they did provide a letter in response, which was included in your agenda information sheet as exhibit one. In their letter in their response, they did include a chart of how they were proposing to utilize the funds for year one, which was a total of 962,000. And I can show that chart in a few minutes if you have any questions for them and how they propose to use those funds from these tax credit developments. Secondly, staff also reached out to the Denton ISD and the county to see if they had any position on these tax credit housing development requests. Although the school district was unable to offer an official position because their board meeting is this week, the Denton ISD superintendent did offer some thoughts back and that correspondence has been provided to you in the council. He estimated that approximately 125 to 150 students would be added from the standard at Med Park Station development. And then he also included correspondence from a development that Denton ISD had supported in May of 2015 at the 2400 block of Bikini Street and that was called the Veranda. We did not hear back from the county on any position or thoughts on these requests. And then lastly, which was included in the agenda information sheet, staff had taken the developer's projections of foregone taxes. And looked at if we plugged in the 2017 assessment value that they use as their comparable property. I think it's called Providence Place. That tax assessment value for 2017 was much higher. So if we plug in that 2017 number, the actual estimated foregone taxes over a 15 year period may be closer to $8 million. Staff is here tonight as well as the Denton Housing Authority and the developer if you have any questions. >> Okay, any questions? All right, we do have some cards wishing to speak. Dr. Catherine Streem, if you'll come state your name and address, your time will begin. >> Good afternoon Mayor Watts and members of the city council. It's my pleasure to be with you. I am Catherine Streem. I live at 9213 Grandview Drive in Denton, Texas, 76202. And I currently chair the board of commissioners of the Denton Housing Association. First of all, I want to give you our thanks for the time and the energy and the dedication you put in to examining our request. I think it is praise worthy that you have cared, you have commented, you have questioned. I also think that for as long as I can remember, many years, let's put it that way. The Denton Housing Authority and the Denton City Council have worked together in a cooperative manner. We have done it on a number of occasions. You have a member of your staff who attends all our meetings. The mayor himself has attended some, asking questions and making comments. And the mayor was kind enough to be on our program and he spoke at our dedication of the Veranda project, which is our first project that's currently under construction on McKinney Street. Now the projects we seek before you or for your approval now, one is for seniors and one is for families. Now I think one of the things we have agreed upon right from the start is the need our community has for this kind of affordable housing. Now this project will certainly not meet our needs, but it will allow us to have a better handle. And it will allow us to move our seniors who are currently living at Heritage Oak, which is up on Bell Avenue. And they are in an environment, they need to be moved to a new environment. The foundation of Heritage Oaks is probably over 30 years old. The concrete is cracking in the foundations. The concrete on the sidewalks as well has been repaired many times and continues to crack. And frankly, I'm beginning to think that this cracked sidewalk and the cracking there is becoming a real hazard for our seniors. Now this affordable housing project has passed planning and zoning not only with their approval, but with accommodation . We have kept the school board superintendent apprised of what we're doing or hope to do. Several of us have spoken to the president of the school board. We believe she understands and she's been in conversation with us about that. She also told me they were not meeting in time to send a message for this meeting. Now as you know, the letter from the school superintendent has been received and all of you have a copy and you know that he essentially said that there would be more students at the, I think it's Pecan Creek Elementary, which we anticipated there would be. And he also restated the position of no objection, which he had provided for our McKinney Street construction. Now, the Denton Housing Authority has provided replies to many, many questions that you have forwarded. And we believe we have done it in a timely manner. We, I think we have provided a council an opportunity to ask questions. We've been in several work sessions. We've been pleased for your interest and your attention. And we have made available to you for questions and discussion, our consultant, our legal advisor, our executive director, and our developer. We come now to ask you to vote favorably on these two items . We ask you to vote no objection on our request that we have asked. And we've placed it before you on your agenda to begin, to address the problem we have with affordable housing in our community. Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you for your attention. >> Thank you, appreciate it. Thank you, Dr. Streem. Next speaker would be Cheryl English. If you'll come state your name and address, your time will begin. >> Good afternoon, Mayor, City Council, City Manager. My name is Cheryl English. My address is 7108 Rain Tree Way, Denton, Texas 76210. I also am a commissioner on the Housing Authority Board as well as Dr. Streem. And as she has stated that we have provided documentation, correspondence, everything that you've asked. I am just coming off of the hills of being at a commissioner training and having the opportunity to talk to other housing authorities throughout the state of Texas. And the problems that we foresee as far as affordable housing and what other measures that we can take to make sure that we 're able to meet this need. And that would be developments like what we're doing. This is another stream of income so that we can't depend on the government. As you know, we're facing cuts just like everybody else. And so we have a growing demand. As you know, the average home in Denton is 200,000. The people that are on these housing programs are low wage earning. People who work in our community, they live in our community, their kids go to school in our community. And we have to provide a place for them to live. Market rate rents they can't keep up with. Sometimes our vouchers can't keep up with market rate and this is what we're competing against. So I too would ask that you would consider and let's be on the forefront of this like Fort Worth and dealing with our affordable housing and that you would vote favorably for this project. Thank you. >> Question. The first one, is that the family project or is that the senior project? Is Med Park, is the standard at Med Park the senior project or the? Sure. >> Come here. >> Do you know which one? >> The standard at Med Park station is the multi-family development and the Hudson at Med Park station is the age restricted to seniors. >> Okay, okay. All right. Yes, Mayor Pro Tem. >> Yeah, I just had a question. You referenced Fort Worth and I saw something just yesterday, I guess, about partnering with Chase Bank, I think, to do some things. But is there something more that you're saying that they're doing that serve as an example for a city like Denton? >> They're way ahead of us. >> Okay. >> Okay. And yes, they have many projects that they've partnered with different entities and developers. I think our consultant Ramon can speak to that because, can you address that? >> Is it something you're interested in? >> Well, maybe we can talk offline. >> Okay. >> It's not necessary for today. I'm just intrigued to hear what other cities are doing then since you're paying attention to it maybe more than we are. So we'll talk later. >> Okay, let's talk. >> Thank you. Any other questions? I'm sorry, Councilmember Wasney. >> To confirm, the developer has stated that these two projects cannot be separated. Is that correct? >> That is correct. >> Question two, the majority of Denton Housing Authority voucher money for housing comes from the federal government. >> The voucher program? Yes. >> Voucher program. Thank you. Any questions? Okay, thank you. >> Thank you. >> Council discussion. Any discussion? Councilmember Briggs. >> I have a question, maybe for the Denton Housing Authority off of something that one of the speakers said. >> Sure. >> Well, maybe anyone. She mentioned that the seniors would more than likely be moving from Heritage Oaks to this new community. I believe there's 160 units. How many seniors are at Heritage? Would all of them be moving or was that? >> I'm uncertain. I'll invite up the Denton Housing Authority to answer that question. >> Good afternoon. There are 114 occupied units at Heritage Oaks. We have 140 units, but we've had to close down some of them , so there's 114 units. And probably over 51, 52% of them are section 8 voucher holders. The others would be market rate. >> At Heritage Oaks or? >> At Heritage Oaks. There's 114 units and not all of those have section 8 vouch ers. >> Okay, so when she was talking about moving, were you guys referring to the voucher? Tenants moving to the new place? >> We're looking at moving the entire property and closing Heritage Oaks to move those residents into the senior property. >> So this will not be creating any new available housing? >> We'll have some additional units. >> Okay, a few. >> Okay. >> Follow up on that. The Denton Housing Authority owns the property and the improvements at Heritage Oaks? >> Correct. >> What would be the long range plan for that? >> That's what we're trying to plan. >> Okay, so you don't have a plan yet? >> No, not yet. >> Thank you. >> That's my last question. >> Okay, any other questions? Thank you, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Yes, Council Member Gregory. >> I move approval of item 2D, the resolution of non-inject ion. >> Okay. There's an approval, is there a second? >> I'll second. >> Okay, you're gonna second? Now is that the multi, is that the, that's not the senior one, correct? >> That's the one without eight. >> Okay, yeah, I wanna just comment. We have a motion to second, we'll take a vote in a second. I'm gonna vote against this. I'm gonna vote for the senior one. I'm gonna vote against this one, and I'm gonna state the reasons why. When I look at, again, this policy of diverting tax dollars to other organizations, that's a pretty big policy decision. When you look at the veranda, when you look at these two projects combined, that's about a, probably 600 to $700,000 a year. The $63,000 a year used per unit for Providence Place or Provident, that's a 10 or 15 year old property. This is my concern, and this is, I really, I have to be honest, I'm very frustrated. I'm frustrated because I feel like we've been given a task here, and we have no room for movement at all. We've got, the two projects are all or nothing. It has to be either a partnership or nothing, and it has to be done today. So I do believe we do need more senior housing. I've been out on that project, at Heritage Oaks. It is falling down. I would hope to think that there's gonna be a plan devised very soon about what to do with that and about some other assets that the housing authority has that could be managed in a way that I think could really greatly improve the financial situation and provide a tremendous amount of more opportunity for affordable housing in the city. So that's why I'm going to vote for the senior one, and if the developer is able to find a way to make that work, then I certainly would encourage that. But that's why I will not be supporting this particular one , not because I'm not supporting affordable housing. It's because I feel that for me, coming and bundling this all together with no room for collaboration or movement in any way or any direction, it makes it very difficult for me. So that's my reasoning for that. So I will be voting no on this one. I will be voting yes on the one that's forthcoming. All right, we have a motion and a second. Any other comments before we take the vote? Council Member Hawkins. >> Well, I share the same concerns. I'm gonna be voting no for both of them. And I'm just not comfortable, I don't feel comfortable enough with having these big projects not being on the tax rolls at this point. I really wanted the policy discussion to come before these, and I know that that didn't happen. I voted for workforce housing before, I'm still very for that. But I just can't, as one of my last votes here on council, just say yes without having all those things in place. And it's the same position I had last week. I feel I share the same point of view as you, that no wiggle room, you're just backed up into the corner again. And sometimes in the selected spot, you have to make those decisions. But I am not comfortable voting for these projects not being on the tax roll. >> Thank you. Yes, Mayor Pro Tem. >> I struggle with this and I certainly appreciate the concerns of the council. I'm gonna be voting for it. I like the idea that we're gonna have a more comprehensive discussion about moving forward in what we do. We've talked about some options of how to do that. We've expressed our concerns with the housing authority. So I think that discussion needs to happen, but we have a housing issue. Like I said last time, I think any apartments coming on ground, whether they're dedicated for affordable housing or not, it eases that supply issue that we're facing. Yet this council has struggled with some other apartment projects coming forward and hasn't approved those, which I thought would have helped to alleviate this crisis. So I think until we get to that point, I would just like to continue to add more projects to Denton. It's not the ideal situation given that tax diversion without any real clear policy discussion on that. But I think in the meantime, I'm in favor of doing this. >> Okay, Councilmember Wasney. >> Just so everyone understands that this would remove these properties off the property tax rolls forever. We had and approved some development for workforce housing not long ago, and the developer agreed to pay property taxes. And those projects were approved. So I will be voting no on this because I'm not willing to say no property tax, because the kids will be in school. People will need the services of police and fire. They will be on the roads. So there's a cost to people coming to the city and to remove $600,000 to $800,000 a year off the tax rolls. I'm just not prepared to say yes today. Thank you. >> Councilmember Begari. >> I echo everything that has been said, especially Council member Hawkins. I think you and I are one accord on this. I wanted to quickly read an email that we got from the school district into the record. It's from the superintendent, and it's from their dem ographer. And just for the record, the school board, I mean, they do have a letter in support. It's not an official position, but it is a letter in support of both of these projects. Here's the demographer info. We took a quick look, and here's my thoughts. The standard at Med Park Station will be located in the Pe can Creek Attendance Zone. The existing apartments within this zone have been yielding between 0.3 and 0.59 students per unit. Given that this is a plan development, this plan development will offer tax credit units. The yield will be on the higher side. The standard with 263 units will likely yield 125 to 150 total students, once fully occupied. 50% of those students would be elementary and assigned to Pecan Creek Elementary. Pecan Creek is currently expected to be at capacity within four years. As it is, this development would certainly accelerate the problem. I'll be voting no. >> Any other comments? And I do believe Councilmember Wozniak, you were referring to the two projects we approved, I believe it was this last February, or somewhere around there, of about 300 units, I believe. And then the Veranda, I believe, is coming online, which we approved back in 2015, of 300, so we got 600 units coming online right now that we 've approved. Well, the other two haven't been started building yet. I don't even know if they got approval yet from the state. So any other comments, questions? Okay, make sure I have, Councilmember Gregory made a motion . Councilmember Briggs seconded the motion to approve the agenda item 2D. Is that correct? All right, all in favor of that motion, please signify by raising your right hand. All right, all opposed, please signify by raising your right hand. Motion fails, four to three. We'll move on to agenda item 2E. Consider approval of a resolution of the city of Denton, Texas, evidencing no objection to the proposed new construction of the Hudson at Med Park Station, etc. We have a step, yes, Councilmember. We have a couple of cards wishing to speak on that. Dr. Catherine Stream, state your name and address please and your time will begin. My name is Catherine Stream. I live at 9213 Granview Drive in Denton, Texas. My zip code is 76207. And I believe Mayor that I tried to address both of these projects in the one issue. I appreciate your consideration again and I ask you to vote favorably on this project. Whether or not we will be able to do it separately, I'm sure you question as well as I. Thank you. >> Thank you. Next speaker is Cheryl English. >> You can pull my card. >> Okay, all right. Did you? Councilmember. >> Yeah, I'm ready to make a motion to approve the resolution of non-objection on item 2E. >> I'll second. >> Okay, Councilmember Briggs second. All in favor, please signify by raising your right hand. All opposed with like sign. Motion carries four to three. Moving on to agenda item F. Consider adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton, Texas amending certain provisions of Chapter 1 and Chapter 17. >> Good afternoon, Mayor, Councilmembers. My name is Laura Barons and I'm the Fire Marshal for the city of Denton. I'm just going to be very brief and answer any questions that you might have. But this item is on a subject that you were briefed on in December. In February, under a city reorganization, community improvement services became a part of the fire department. At that time, we initiated a comprehensive evaluation of the department. This subject was identified as an issue and an item needing to be addressed. As a regulatory agency, it's vital that we know and understand what authority an agency has in enforcement, the scope of that enforcement, and how we carry out that enforcement in a legal manner. And so what you have in front of you is an ordinance that essentially ratifies the authority for community improvement services to carry out the current duties and assignments that they have to them, assigned to them. >> Any questions? We have no cards wishing to speak. Chair would entertain a motion. Councilmember Hawkins. >> I move approval of item 2F. >> Councilmember Wasney. >> I second the motion. >> All right, we have a motion to second for agenda item 2F . All in favor, please signify by raising your right hand. Motion carries unanimously. Going to concluding items. I'm going to take chair liberty to open it and close it to give a shout out to our council members who will be leaving us either in the next week or the weeks to come. Mayor Pro Tem Kevin Roden and Councilmember Joey Hawkins and Councilmember Wasney. >> Thank you all so much for serving. Appreciate it. We're going to do more of a big shindig next week. But this was your last official kind of meeting per se. We went out with not so much a whimper but a bang. And I appreciate that. Thank you so much for your service, your camaraderie. All the different very lively discussions that we've had, I 've so appreciated and I've grown personally from every one of you and what you've brought to this council. So thank you so much for your willingness to volunteer for no pay, long hours, tremendous excitement from citizens as they approach you about issues. And I really, really do appreciate it because it's not something for the faint hearted. So thank you so much for your service. >> [APPLAUSE] >> Yes. >> Two items. >> Yes. >> First of all, just for the record, since our mayor likes to say that, there's going to be a correction in tomorrow's Denton Record Chronicle. My mother is not buried in the IAOF cemetery. I have no relatives buried in either of the city cemeteries . There's no conflicts of interest in my advocating for cemetery repairs. >> Number two, I would ask that the staff look at making a couple of revisions to our agenda information sheet, specifically our work session item on citizen comments on consent agenda items. I think that the direction should include in there that after the speaker states their name and their address, that they specify which specific consent agenda item they're speaking to. And clearly state whether they're for it, whether they're against it, or whether they have some items that they want to comment on regarding that. I know that when I have testified at the state of Texas Senate and House committees that they require that, and it really makes things easier. If you know which item they're speaking to and whether they 're for it or against it, because sometimes a citizen can talk a good bit and you still don't know really what their position is. And I think if we state that, it could clarify some ambigu ities that we seem to be having in that part of the agenda. So I'll leave it to staff to maybe make adjustments to the wording to that effect. >> Councilmember Begari, and then we'll go to Councilmember Lawson. >> The city of Dallas has, I think, if I understand it correctly, they have some type of browsable voting record for the city council members. So as a part of our budget discussions, if we could get some input as to how much that might cost to add onto the website. Appreciate that. >> Councilmember Wasney. >> As representative of district three, I'm going to ask for council's help right now. We have a runoff election scheduled. >> Councilmember Wasney, is this a concluding? I want to make sure, I don't want to get it outside of a posting. Because I don't think we can deliberate if it's on a concluding item. >> If I ask for an emergency meeting. >> So let- >> Go ahead, go ahead. >> So as it stands right now, district three does not have any early voting locations in district three. So that all of our voters now- >> All of our voters now will have to travel from district three over to the Denton County Elections Administration building for early voting. Spoke to city manager and tomorrow is the deadline for the county. So I would ask the city manager, what is the process? Ideally, it would be nice to have an early vote north and an early vote south to accommodate a long and skinny district three. What are any possibilities for the city? >> Okay, I'm going to ask the city attorney to, because I'm not sure what's happening here, quite honestly. So if you need to ask for an emergency meeting, I don't know if the city council has to agree to go into emergency meeting. I understand, so Mr. City Attorney, if you could just give me some help and clarification on how to proceed from here. >> Schedule an emergency meeting, under the Open Meetings Act, there are certain criteria or certain types of events that would allow an emergency meeting to be held. I'm familiar with what is going on. This would not fit under one of those criteria for an emergency meeting. We would have to follow a 72 hour posting requirement to get this item before the council to be voted on. >> Okay, all right. So you can continue just expressing your new business. But I think as far as deliberation, I think we're precluded from deliberating on that and giving direction in this meeting today. >> And I appreciate having legal counsel give us direction on that. With a 72 hour window, the deadline is tomorrow for Denton County. So it's basically a moot point at this time. I will register my disappointment that staff was not prepared in thinking and getting ready for any early vote locations in any of the districts in anticipation of runoffs in any of the districts. Because what we have now is we're out of time and we have a runoff in district three without any voting locations in district three. So that's item one. >> Okay. >> Item two, I would like to ask for a date certain on June 6th, council work session to discuss hiring a search firm for a new city attorney. Okay, all right. Anybody else on concluding items? I've got a couple. One is just to reiterate the discussion on the downtown TIF , sort of a comprehensive discussion on that. And the second one is we've certainly worked hard on this council to provide direction as we saw today in the presentation on the Shiloh House for homelessness and how do we help, how do we continue to improve the situations there. And I've received comments and emails, not so much emails, just comments from people and phone calls that we need to begin to look at the other side of that as well. And so I'd ask for a work session with Chief Howe on how do we go about policing. We want to certainly encourage people to get help to move towards those areas and those organizations that we have that we're lifting up to help them. But I'm getting quite a few complaints about people who are sleeping in people's hedgerows, camped out behind people's buildings. >From what I understand, it's gotten to be quite a problem. So I want to have a work session to understand that side of the problem because there is that side of the problem. I think Denton obviously is a very compassionate community and we want to help where we can help. But also we have to make sure that all of our citizens enjoy safety and the peace to enjoy their property as they see fit. So would want like a work session in that regard as well. Any other questions, comments? All right, then we will stand adjourned at 5.05. Thank you.