Dec 15, 2015 City Council on 2015-12-15 1:00 PM

2015 at 105 or 103 we do have a quorum. We'll be working through our work session agenda items. We'll starting with agenda item one. Citizen comments on consent agenda items. Any have any cards for citizen comments? No citizen comments? Request for clarification of agenda items listed on agenda for December 15th. I usually will ask my colleagues for those but I want to go ahead and mention one that I think we've gotten some emails about and some discussion about and that is on agenda item. It's the public hearing on the 6, 6B I believe it is. Mr. City Manager if you could sort of elaborate a little bit on because I know that we've talked about a public hearing to hear from the community on the Dent renewable plan proposal and and we did have some discussion about resolutions but there was a resolution included on this that seemed to indicate that we could vote on approving the Dent renewable plan tonight which seems I don't recall that so if you could help me. Okay when the agenda was prepared generally when we have a public hearing on an item we have an action item associated with either a resolution or an ordinance. Normally the what DME had recommended was a schedule to try to consider a resolution to approve the concept of a Dent renewable plan in general at some point. Council indicated at least my understanding was they wanted to wait until after the council held a public hearing on that matter so we prepared a resolution and then tried to incorporate that into that Mr. Gregory's request that there also be a resolution or an element of the resolution that would that would enhance our goal and objective of becoming 100% renewable. So both of those items to prove the concept of the plan and increase our objective and our goal of reaching 100% renewable energy is included in the same resolution so that council can either discuss that give us further direction on it following the public hearing tonight clearly as with other public hearings and resolutions or ordinances council doesn't need to act on that. You couldn't have much discussion in detail on it will give us much direction as a body unless it's posted so we posted it to get further clarification and direction. My expectation is based on the conversation that you may want to have further discussion but that's partially dependent on the public hearing that you have tonight as well. So it's there it's not required that you act on it and there's no action required immediately if you don't. Sure I guess and just to help sort of understand the process of agendas and what appears on your agenda because I know you and I had a discussion that I'm on the agenda committee together with Mayor Pro Tem Gregory and when we reviewed the agenda I think couple weeks ago so we've reviewed these sometimes a couple weeks in advance. We do. That I don't believe that resolution was part of that caption. I think we had the well it may it may not have been sometimes we have captions when we have an agenda committee meeting for an item to determine where it's going to go on the agenda but the caption itself may get modified and I frankly don't recall whether the caption for that public hearing had a resolution associated with it or not. I thought that it did and I'm we've modified the resolution but I don't know. Okay and then I will let my colleagues anybody wants to chime in. I guess my recollection of the and of course we don't have to move on that resolution and I'll just say publicly that I'm not ready to move on it as it's written for sure because my understanding was the direction was that Mayor Pro Tem had wanted some type of resolution to encourage general resolution of a hundred percent renewable. Councilmember Roden had mentioned that well could we incorporate that with a resolution moving forward on the Denton renewable plan and then somehow we had some discussion decided to bifurcate those because we weren't ready to vote on the plan but we may be ready to talk about a hundred percent renewable goal so. And those certainly could be separated into different resolutions considered at different times. Okay all right that's all I have. Councilmember Was ney. Based on this citizen angst and confusion on this resolution and to the best of my recollection all we agreed upon as a council was a resolution backing renewables that everything else was pretty much on the table and even that was agreed upon because it was the mayor who stepped forward and said well I'd even like to take that and postpone it to 2016. So based on my recollection and just based on the number of phone calls and emails that I 've received I'd like to take the resolution and just postpone it if it's agree able to council move forward with public hearing tonight but only make that the public hearing with no resolution tonight. Mayor Pro Tem. Thanks mayor. What I had planned to do was when that part of the agenda came up I was going to make a motion if nobody else did to postpone until January and I would still have need to look and see a meeting date in January. I suspected that we will have some ideas that will come out tonight that we need to further investigate and maybe we'll be ready in January maybe we won't but I appreciate the fact that there was an item in section 2 of the resolution with the hundred percent renewable goal by 2030. I don't think it highlights it enough and so I was going to postpone move to postpone to today in January at least and also move to either remove that section and put it somewhere else where it was more visible and highlighted or simply have a concurrent resolution that we would consider at the same time or right after that just about the hundred percent. So that was that was what I was planning to do because I don't see that we're I'm anticipating we're not going to be ready tonight. Councilmember Briggs. I would also like to postpone and I'm in agreement with Mayor Pro Tem I think that there's a lot listed in that resolution and a few of those can be divided up into their own resolutions for the future. I'd like to see that. Yes Councilmember Rho ade. So as it relates to giving direction to the content of that resolution or the content of the resolutions if that should be there I guess pursuant to this particular agenda item right now which is discussion of agenda items I don't know if we properly can give direction on what the state of those resolutions are in this context without a fuller discussion which we might have different thoughts on it. It sounds like across the board everyone's kind of committed to saying this probably needs some more time to percolate. I've got no heartburn in keeping that resolution as part of the agenda item so that we can continue to have that conversation if he wants to give some direction or you want to give direction as to what that resolution needs to say we're properly posted to do that. One of my fears if we pull that off then we just listen to the public and there's not much discussion to be had. Well and and I hear what you're saying is in normal court can we number one properly give direction in this context in this setting as a work session or do we go out to the meeting and then give the same direction we have here during that. I will say that as it's posted it does say hold a public hearing consider public input regarding the proposed renewable dent plan for future power supplies as part of the dent and municipal service territory discuss deliberate provide staff with direction so I think it's properly posted in a very general broad sense to provide pretty much any kind of direction you want if you want to postpone the resolution if you want to pull it all off when we get up to the meeting so I'll let our Madam City Attorney elaborate on at least the context of any type of direction. Right I think that we've got a fairly broad posting here and I think that the council has a lot of latitude here as far as how you want to handle this I believe what I'm hearing is that you want to have the public hearing you're seeking public input and then you're reserving your options with regard to direction to staff after you hear public input such that you can then direct what you'd like to see in the resolution and this may be it may be something different it may be more it may be additional resolution so I think you've got all of your options available on the table as you go forward. I guess and correct me Councilman Robins if I'm wrong I guess that seemed like the gist of his question was are we proper in protocol or form as the agenda is opposed to for work session and everything that if there was direction to not discuss the resolution tonight in the open meeting can that direction be given at this moment or do we have to wait until the meeting at 630 and when the agenda item is called and then we just simply will repeat what we what we have here is that was that it or no that was part of my concern I mean I mean I guess I guess it's a bit if the goal of tonight is to receive public input on this one way or the other then I'm not sure how we give that direction prior to that at a work session so again it's it sounds like the thrust of everyone's thought is we're probably not gonna have a vote on this tonight and that we probably need more time to think this through and give more direction on that sort of thing so if the concern is either here at this table or in the public that council is gonna rush this thing through tonight to the extent that people weren't prepared for that either councils or the public it sounds like this conversation right now is giving that sort of signal that we're probably not heading in that direction but we need to have a conversation yeah yeah okay council okay with you know we'll basically have this same conversation when we get out into the meeting to make sure that we hear the public input instead of quote-unquote pulling it here now we'll just do it up there when we typically do some of those things I know we pulled them before in the past at this is that yes well definitely I was looking forward to the discussion but I was a little surprised that there it did look like we were gonna need some action so I'm glad to hear that so I was not ready to make an action on that either okay so so I think when we get up there and have the the public comments it sounds like that the direction of council will be sort of as mayor pro-tem alluded to and that is we won't be taking up the resolution so we'll have that discussion when we get out yes how do we let the public that will fill that auditorium tonight know in advance before their comments that we are not voting tonight Facebook I'm sorry just kidding yes just a comment as far as giving some direction in the work session item B on your work session agenda is to talk about the new dental noble plan right Phil has a presentation today I think legitimately the council could give direction and make it clear that your intention during this work session item is to not take action on a resolution tonight but can we hold the public hearing now it's posted so conceivably that could happen but if you make it clear that it's not during this work session item I think you'd be perfectly appropriate that you give that direction during the work session no I agree completely I think that I have heard there's a consensus that there's not a desire to move forward on the resolution I think the mayor might announce that during the work session and during this particular item on the agenda there's been some discussion it appears there's a consensus not to move forward with the action item on the resolution and so the public will then know okay so and when you say give an announcement at the end of our work session of 3b if that's the consensus or direction of the council during that particular work session specifically targeted to the dent renewable plan then that's we would be it would be appropriate to then give that direction on that resolution at that time I think I think that okay so I think the discussion we've had here so far and I think the discussion we're gonna have probably in a few minutes we'll try to get that out and of course this is a public meeting tele vised so whoever can can help us do that that be yes and would it be appropriate mayor when we go out after we say the pledge and give give awards and such that you would make that statement sure so folks are there to talk about that before we open the public hearing they'll know yeah yeah thank you somebody just remind me yeah yes okay great we're still in clarification of agenda items yes councilmember briefs I have a question about be the steel galvanized steel structures I recall a conversation and had some emails about the galvanized steel and then difference with the ones that actually do weather they weather and I was wondering if we approve this if it's for those specifically or if you can change the type you order after you commit to this contract let me ask Phil Williams if he can perhaps address that I don't know Elton is here or not he's commiter rating with purchasing system so this item E is for oh you say be sub station galvanized tubular steel post the post the post okay he is also B is for the polls we would be able to do a change order for this this is authorizing this was what was been out but would be possible to change order afterwards if we needed to okay to follow it I've got a follow-up to that question so on a change order does that mean that it could be would they give us the price that would be specific as if we'd have had it in the original RFP or does a change order typically incur a price increase okay I 'm Karen Smith for Elton today we can do a change order for light goods up to 25% so we would go out and say we want to change this or add this widget to it and then we can take pricing for that if we feel like it's a good price then we can change order the contract but we cannot change the total contract more than 25% without rebidding so we decided that we wanted product a to go on all of our steel and it changes the price greater than 25% and we would have to go out for rebid for that answer the question yeah I guess it was more like okay if we had to send out an RFP for either the galvanized or I think they're called weathered weathering weathered steel something and so we get our prices back showing the per unit price correct but if we have the the RFP for the galvanized and then we do a change order would that per unit price typically be more than if we'd have had it originally as a as an RFP I mean in your experience I mean well the thing is if you're gonna do a change order you don't really get to test the whole field so if we were really going to change the project it's that one company okay if we were really going to change the product it's probably best to go out for a new RFP so that you can really test the field and find out what is the best price for that okay more competitive yeah this is on the same thing is yours on the same thing on the same thing I mean I recall the discussion I recall thinking to myself oh my goodness I hope Council doesn't start picking colors for all kinds of things that we're doing I don't even do that at home I know who needs to be making that decision it's not me the but I don 't recall that we decided that we wanted to do that for all of them and I do recall that there was a discussion that said that it was a difference of 50 years and 70 years and if it's a 20 year difference in the lifespan of one of those I'm not sure that I want to spend unless we're getting unless they're about 20% less in cost or no that's not this that wouldn't be the same 40% less in cost I'm not sure that I want to spend the extra money for something you know that has a shorter life expectancy I brought it up because it's 1 million eight hundred and forty thousand dollars in a contract and I thought well what if we were putting one in somebody's yard and they requested to have this kind of poll versus that kind of poll or if we were in a certain area where they would look better if that would be an option to maybe get like five in this rather than like I just wanted to know what what our options were great good that's good point yes Brent question came up I think I may be able to answer this this is not for the transmission still pose this is tubular steel poles that go this is galvanized tubular steel poles that goes inside of the substation these are no taller than 65 foot and can be shorter than that okay so these are not these are not the transmission very nice and I think that may clarify that question we just got it that's good good discussion though you're quite welcome thank you stay in the room thank you councilmember Bosney let's see back to agenda item questions item 5a the Eagle substation it was council's direction last discussion that we postpone action while discussions are taking place with certain property owners so we need to take that off tonight right I had made a note to ask the mayor and the council to delete that item from tonight 's agenda good item 5a we have not had those discussions with and then the mayor's conversations on the consent agenda item P is in Paul I request that this item be placed on items for individual consideration all right so you want that pulled yeah I'd like to have just a little bit more discussion if we we might mr. mayor and madam chair of the Ethics Committee on that particular item I saw an email that came from a citizen with regard to this ordinance and I have a tendency to agree with the comment that was made and if I might have a little bit of discussion there there was some concern on the ordinance and it's an item P section 2 - 30 it's at B - and the citizen was concerned that we took a little bit too broad a stroke with regard to confidential information being all information discussed in a closed meeting I tend to agree with that and so I have prepared an alternative draft for your consideration I think what I'll do is pass it around in both directions and ask you to take a look at that we put a little finer edge on that particular provision the original draft that's in your backup was the draft that came forward from 2006 it was unchanged by the Ethics Committee but what I have now passed out to you puts a little finer edge on what would be confidential information again it's 2 - 30 B - or confidential government information is defined my suggestion here is that we use the language in this alternative draft to be any information from a meeting closed to the public pursuant to the Texas Open Meetings Act which is accepted by the Texas Open Meetings Act from the requirements that meetings of a governmental body be open to the public so that's a little finer edge just as an example if a member told a joke during closed session that 's not a violation of the Open Meetings Act but neither is it really confidential so I've put a little finer edge on that particular point yes ma'am just in light of public transparency and plenty of lead time for the public to see this can we just pull this item for tonight and move it to January so that it the resolution as it's modified can be attached like it was this time to an item so that the public can read it prior to the council taking any action on it certainly certainly the council's call with regard to how you want to handle them yes yes the question that I would have on that is I think that would be appropriate but at some point I think that we need to have some discussion I don't think this is necessarily the time this is a time for questions and and it may be that if we pull it for individual consideration tonight and have a short discussion on this and then we could postpone to another meeting to give folks more time it could be an item for individual consideration it could go back on the consent agenda but I have some questions that I want to ask about it also but actually those questions are more deliberative in nature rather than just clarification which is what this time is for sure it would seem to me that we ought to do that pull it have a short discussion and then we can decide you know indeed to postpone it and give more time for public input so we'll still pull it and have a discussion on it and then whatever motions are made at that time would be the ones that would be disposed of Council member Rodin yes oh anybody on this particular agenda item okay discussion okay Councilmember Rodin on item Q on the round about at North Texas Boulevard I-35 and I apologize I should have I should have submitted this question in advance because it's more of just kind of for my benefit I remember having more in-depth conversation about this particular project in the context of the Convention Center and even in the backup as it was describing it talked about meetings with UNT about this talked about meetings with Dean in neighborhood I don't know if those meetings predated the conversation or the fate of the Convention Center at that spot or what the particular relevance of this infrastructure change is now in a non Convention Center environment at that location mr. Frank Payne is our city engineer he can respond to that as a transportation issue thank you the the idea for the roundabout was really exclusive of the existence of the Convention Center in my opinion and I think in that of the people that were involved in it was a complementary project but the intent of the roundabout was to provide improved two-way access to the Dean neighborhood and to the University rather than just a stub road which is shown in the text dot schematics for 35 that answer I in terms of the mobility through that plot of land that's University now outside now that we're post Convention Center discussion do they have any real plan for a road going through there or this just allows them some options depending on what ends up getting developed or not developed on that site yes they do have road shown on their master plan at one time it was a an arterial class roadway and in other words a primary or secondary large roadway separated by median four lanes or six lanes and it went wound around where the stadium is now and tied into Walt Parker Drive ugly they have no current plans for a wide road there the little leg that we show that that moves off to the southwest is is appropriate for tying into their current use which is more of a service drive and it'll also work for extension of that road as long as it's at the capacity that they show on their master plan okay so the key key to my question I think you've answered which is this infrastructure change has benefit independent of any convention center and in fact predated discussion of Convention Center I think they were again I think they were complementary I think I'd have to go back and look at the at the timeline to see but I think that you know we were having conversations about roundabout access and convention center basically at the same time and it was more or less a question of how do you pull a driveway onto the roundabout off one of the legs you wouldn't want to bring it directly into the roundabout and so again the the service drive leg was perfect place to pull the driveway off thank you that's the same one I was going to bring up too and just we brought that up at the last enia meeting and it was overall the neighborhood was very in favor of this and we added this cul-de-sac franken speak a little bit on that left the duck pond alone things like that so I think some of the design aspects that you see in the schematic that's in your backup or brought about based on feedback we got from the neighborhood for instance on where Avenue D ends at the right-of-way textile and a GL had no real plans other than to just stub that road out some of the neighbors were a little concerned about access for the two houses that front that road so we put in a request that they add a cul- de-sac for turn around for emergency services and better access and they've included that as part of the 35 project sorry what was the other one donation of the right-of-way for our match right this isn't the same as any of the other a if they contracts that I brought to you for funding with the RTR or State Highway 121 tolling proceeds this is a little different in that with the donation of right-of-way that makes up a hundred percent of the local match UNT has agreed to donate that right-of-way as long as they come through with that donation a hundred percent of this is paid for through RTR funds the way the budget set up now the city didn't won't be out of a penny cool thanks for a protein don't go away on item J this is the resolution affirming our desire to remove FM 426 that's McKinney Street from text dot system and when they give it to us that they also give us the 18.2 million I'd like to move this for individual consideration to highlight it this evening I'd like to be able to ask staff a couple of questions when they make a short presentation and the preview of the questions and I'm sorry I didn't get this to you ahead of time that's okay it's not my I'm all for it okay well I don't care about what okay no but but what it may be something that you'll need to help with the answer is in the meantime if this comes off the onto our system what would a reasonable time frame for us to see something happen in terms of relocating utility lines actual construction and and and if we have some notion as to that is and if it's six eight years out to get all of that done is there an opportunity or a path forward for a path yes so if we could have be prepared to answer those questions when we do this for individual considerations that thanks yes councilman road it's actually the first public hearing from the assembly halls and so it really is a question to give a signal to madam attorney and her team as to a question that I'm going to ask just so that you all were prepared for this the last line of the AIS says Commission could recommend conditions or recommend denial the SUP to City Council there's been a lot of discussion over the years over what conditions could be could a recommended of a denial of an SUP be legally allowed sometimes I think to the public hearing that if something could be allowed in a neighborhood but for with an SUP there's a certain amount of comfort in so far as they think that we can actually deny that and I know that that's there's some legal questions so I think the legal questions are general in nature that perhaps can be discussed in open session but I'm just throwing that out so that your team can have a chance to prepare that we appreciate that thank you yeah any other questions of clarification on agenda items sure I believe the one that mayor pro tem had mentioned which is J and then 5a we're going to omit and then P the is that the S is P will pull so we'll pull 5a and 4p and 4j for individual consideration yes yes well well you know that the one for the ethics we're going to go ahead and pull it and have a discussion but then most likely postpone it yeah okay yeah okay any other questions or comments okay seeing none we will go on to work session 3a which is receive report hold discussion give staff direction regarding the regulation and economic impact of mobile food truck vendors in the city of Denton thank you mayor and I'm gonna ask Amy B issett our director of development services if she would present this item for your discussion and consideration thank you Amy thank you mayor and council members give me just a moment to pull up the presentation please all right what we're here to talk about today is food trucks operating in the city of Denton and how we regulate those why we created an ordinance to facilitate food trucks in the city of Denton to start with and how we can perhaps amend that ordinance moving forward to accommodate some of the unintended or negative consequences that we have seen and so really when we started talking about this after our last work session with the council we we decided we needed to take a step back what we what we observed was that we had been creating a food truck ordinance and looking at food trucks through the lens of building inspections and specifically health permits and health inspections which makes sense because they're their food vendors and however when when we started thinking about what the questions and the concerns were that were being raised by council members in previous discussions we realized that it was a much broader question than regulating it from a health standpoint we were really talking about economic development we were talking about land use we were talking about public property there were a variety of things that were coming into play that were the were broader than than the original way the ordinance was crafted in the lens with which it was crafted and so what I want to do today is just zoom out a little bit and start with why we why we started this process in the first place and what I'm going to do is take us through some of the the positives and the negatives that we've seen to date with this with this ordinance and then I'm going to make some recommendations of some changes that we could with that we could consider moving forward so why did why did you decide originally to create a food truck ordinance I believe based on the conversations that I heard that it was intended to recognize the organic nature of the community the unique culture and to stimulate economic development in the city so you did create an ordinance in 2014 that facilitated an opportunity for two food trucks to operate in Denton and since that time we've had multiple discussions and have received some direction that while the ordinance itself says to that that food trucks cannot operate on public property or in public rights of way that at the moment we're more or less allowing them to do so but that you all have asked us to come up with some solutions that accommodate the various concerns that are created by them so just to give you a brief overview Denton has about ten food trucks that operate regularly in the city mostly downtown and some near the universities but there are many more that come in for special events and trucks often want to park next to bars and bars want to want trucks to be parked next to them you can see in the photo Austin Street truck stop this is an example of an area where we don't have an issue which is that they're operating on private property with the permission of the property owner and not in conflict with the surrounding businesses and this particular case works really well but the crux of the issue of what we're seeing is that food a lot of bar owners want food trucks parked outside of their property and they're parking on public property or and they're parking close to restaurants that don't want them there and so that's what I want to really try to speak to and contemplate today so our perspective is that food trucks have an economic impact in two ways first of all it facilitates an opportunity for entrepreneurship in the city food trucks have a very low barrier to entry they're low cost of overhead it's an opportunity for entrepreneurs to try something new and test a market see whether it will be successful in this city or not and potentially become a brick-and-mortar restaurant in the future some examples of this are Torchy's tacos and specifically in Denton Flatlanders tacos that have now opened downtown the second way that we think food trucks have a positive economic impact is through revitalization there's an opportunity to stimulate activity and traffic in an area that we can identify as an area that needs to be revitalized for example we're talking about the community market being down near the rail yard project that's that's a similar concept to an opportunity to create a food truck park or a commissary area where food trucks can join in a in one area and drive traffic to that area on the flip side of that and we know that if not regulated properly that food trucks can have a negative impact or be in direct competition to brick-and-mortar brick-and-mortar restaurants we also know that from the research that we have done at the city that they're not always generating the sales tax and property tax revenue that we think that they might be and as you all know from a recent informal staff report we had inspected we've inspected about 18 food trucks over the last year two of them are paying property taxes in Denton today and less than half of the ten that operate regularly have paid sales tax in the last year I I do know that we have notified the the proper regulatory agencies to make sure that the food trucks do come in compliance to that and I believe that we 'll continue to monitor that in the future and I do think there's also an opportunity for the economic development division to do a little bit of education and outreach with food trucks to make sure that they're in compliance and making them generally aware of their opportunity to participate in the economic vitality of the city so we have a question is there a way that when it 's time for those food trucks to apply for their annual permit that if they have not been paying sales tax that that could be a condition for reapplication if we could verify that yes we can well I'll have to look at into that procedurally a little bit I think from a policy standpoint that is a possibility where we can say we're gonna monitor your sales tax I mean there there might be an explanation they might not have have done business they might have gotten the permit but but they were operating in a different location outside the city which other sales tax was going somewhere else they thought they might work here but if they're doing business here then I think that that if there's a way that we could tie re-permitting to to assurance or guarantee of that payment that it would it would relieve a lot of people's anxiety I think that that is a it's a very good idea and we'll look further into how we could potentially I don't know if it's possible because I know the permit is really for health purposes but if we could if there's a way to to broaden that permit I think that would be good. I have another question. On one hand I think that 's a good idea on the other hand I wonder if there's an equal rights issue with other types of businesses whether or not we're checking their sales and property taxes prior to issuing CEOs and things like that other sorts of city permits so I'd want us legally to look into that sort of so we're not targeting a particular industry unduly but it's it's it's not a bad thought as it relates and just to clarify as it relates to sales tax just as a reminder is it the case that someone who's operating in various municipalities that the state requirement is to you're due to pay sales tax to wherever you're getting the revenue in any particular city so if you're working in three cities and you've got 30% 30% 30 whatever percent to equal that out to 100 you'd have to divide that sales tax up appropriately. I'm gonna defer that question to Chuck although he's nodding his head yes that it's wherever the okay that's what I thought and I remember we had to look into that as it relates to property tax twofold question if although they're mobile they're only gonna have to pray pay property tax in one locale so if they happen to be based in Argyle or something like that that would be where the property taxes do so when you say only two out of the ten are paying property taxes is that because eight only two out of the ten are actually based in the city because that can be deceiving this statistic or is it that some are skirting paying their property taxes. That's an interesting question I think that and the the food truck owner essentially determines where their primary place of business is and that's where they should be paying property taxes. Our observation is that a lot of them have you know their their residential home address or business address is Denton but I don't know that they're they would consider their primary place of business to be Denton so yeah I know question that I'm not sure it's a it's an interesting conundrum for for us. Council member Johnson. Just to address your question I was just reading the informal staff report we got so I think just like an airplane they have to establish this is where this asset is based so the informal staff report said seven because seven of them declared a Denton address as their base. Well they had a Denton address listed on their health permit I don't know whether I don't know if that's the same as what would be declared as the base or not however we did provide that information to the central appraisal district so for enforcement purposes. Gotcha okay thank you. Councilmember Rudd. And Amy if you're gonna touch on this later I'll stop but if a food truck has a health permit from Dallas they're allowed to leave Dallas City limits and come on to Denton with that same. They have to have a health permit from Denton to operate in Denton. Okay. I guess back to the ad valorem tax question on the actual business property which would be personal property so we don't know we've not been able to confirm if there is a personal property/ business property account with the Denton Central Appraisal District for some of those I guess what eight of those establishments are. Two of the food trucks that are permitted to operate in Denton are registered and paying property taxes in Denton. The others may be registered and paying property taxes elsewhere or they may not be anywhere. Okay. And I think that may be an economic development opportunity for staff to engage and educate food truck operators for for their own business purposes so that they're operating a proper business that's it that's certainly an activity that falls within the realm of economic development but also helps and stimulate activity here in Denton itself. Is there a way that staff could bring back just even in an informal staff report just in regarding this specific issue but also just in general how that if someone has some business personal property like a food truck how do you determine or what methodology can you use to require at least a disclosure of where the particular business property is residing from from an ad valorem tax perspective because with with airplanes we do that through there they have to register with I guess it's the FAA or something like that of where their base is and so that's the basis that's that standard for that so I just would be curious as to what the standard is for this industry. We can get that information back. Okay thank you. So what we did was we took a look at what we thought to be the primary challenge which is the the value of having food trucks in Denton from an economic development and entrepreneurial standpoint and revitalization standpoint versus making sure that they're contributing members of our economy and also protecting or minimizing the impact to our brick-and-mortar restaurants in the sense that that they can be damaged as a result and so one of the concepts that we're proposing today is the concept of a food truck parking permit and this would operate almost identically to a loading zone permit or the potential valet parking permit that we discussed a couple of weeks ago and this is essentially where a food truck operator could have a permit to park in a fixed location in for a year essentially where either they would apply for that permit or for example Mul berry Cantina might apply for a permit in front of their business and then they regulate or allow certain food trucks to park there. In that particular case it would be very similar to loading zone or valet parking. It would be for one year, it would be for a fixed location, and they would have to notify and receive permission from property owners within a certain distance from them so if they wanted to park at Mulberry Cantina and the owner of Hannah's was concerned about that they'd have an opportunity to oppose it or to to express their concern and depending on how we would write that ordinance would determine those you know the distances would determine the fees associated with that but we feel like it's one way to provide some separation between the mobile vendors and our brick-and-mortar restaurants and also to regulate the number of permits that we would issue in in the downtown area for example. The second thing that we would recommend is taking a look at our public parking lots and analyzing where we would like food trucks to park where we think we might want to stimulate revitalization and economic activity and allowing perhaps a limited number or a certain area within a parking lot that the city owns to where its food trucks can come first come first serve and park there. An example of that might be the lot across from Oak Street draft house perhaps a set number of rows could be food truck parking allowed here but it's first come first serve and in that case the individual food trucks wouldn't need a parking permit but they would have access to some targeted areas that the City Council has identified that are suitable for food trucks to park. The third thing that we would recommend. I'm trying to so you're I think this is a perfect time to have this conversation because we've had some experience now and and I think one of the things that we want to be sure of is that if people are conducting just like if we have vendors in our parks for a festival they have to pay a fee because they're using public property for their business so I would think that if we had food trucks parking on a city parking lot that some kind of extra permit where they're paying for that privilege would be appropriate or you're suggesting that that would be included correct? Well I would I what I'm suggesting is that if that's something you'd like us to explore further that we would develop some policies around that so we would identify areas we would identify other policies associated with that. Okay all right. And then lastly Councilmember Rhoad. Sorry to interrupt mid-sentence. That's all right. On the food truck parking permit so maybe this isn't flushed out yet and you're just kind of throwing these ideas out for later flushing out from a policy and ordinance perspective but you did raise this point of some other business in the vicinity getting the opportunity to oppose it. I'm imagining this isn't a public hearing process where City Council's deciding these public permits please do not. I imagine it's it's an administrative process. How does something like that, how does one restaurant's voice play into the matter? Say there 's two two restaurants take the Mulberry Street Cantina example. One fully fledged brick-and-mortar entity down there says we'd like to have this in fact we're willing to pay for it for the permit if that should be what we do. Someone across the street says we don't want it there. How does that even play into a decision-making process in terms of I'm just trying to think hypothetically if we're opening up the door for opposing views how does that fair it out? What we've seen in other cities and I don't in your specific example I we would have to think through how that might play out but what we've seen in other cities is they have to risk they have to go get the signatures of the property owners within a certain number of feet of where they're wanting that wanting to be able to have that permit to park and they have to get all the signatures of the property owners where they're there they all consent to it. Now we could build in a percentage in that it would certainly be an administrative process where we'd take a look at and as we process the application whether or not they met that requirement and I in it in an instance where you've got one applying for it and one opposing it I'll have to work through that a little more. [inaudible] So the thought is I'd want worked into some policy just my suggestion that instead of I'm just opposing this because I don't like it and I'm fearful of something that has never been demonstrated that I have to demonstrate harming or something to that degree just because we're talking about businesses and we're talking about competition happens and if every business could say I don't want another business of my kind in my proximity well it's a free market and that's part of it these folks have come and created a new business model so I'm a little leery of businesses being able to shut down other businesses simply because of ambiguous reasons. I think that with for example with the valley parking policy that we were discussing a couple of weeks ago there were administrative criteria with which staff could deny a permit and it was it was not completely that black and white it was things like if it's unreasonably interfering with an existing business allowable business operation things of that nature so that it could be a determination that's made administratively and has some leeway in it is it's the way I've seen the policies written. But just to address what you're saying I know that free market I'm totally for it but let's say that I own a taco shop and right next to me is a bar and I'm killing it I sell a ton of tacos and the guy works out a deal with a food truck to all of a sudden start selling tacos and so he starts taking some of my business in theory I feel like I'm a brick-and-m ortar business who invested a lot of money into that building pays sales tax property tax invests in festivals and all that so I'm just saying in theory that's what makes me uncomfortable with it I know what you're saying it seems like it's working out there and I was always nervous somebody's just gonna park a coffee truck right in front of my coffee shop I took I get it but just in theory from somebody who's invested a lot of money like I this is where I'm gonna be for a while that's what's concerning me about that agreement so. You know there's there's concern I just think about folks downtown you don't talk to any business downtown that isn't concerned they would love to always have a parking spot in front of their business available for that next customer that comes in so even when a business in the downtown area applies for a loading zone there are some issues with neighboring businesses because that means one less parking spot or it means that somehow these people have created a loading zone and they just bought a parking spot for themselves so how does that work when somebody applies in our downtown area for example to have a loading zone so they've now taken up a public space that benefits exclusively their business how does that work how much do they pay do they have to do an application process can the business is around them say no I don't think I'd like that I'm not very familiar with our loading zone ordinance it's not within the planning department purview it's it's in the engineering streets area I believe so I can come back and answer that question but I'd need to get some more. You know as I 'm thinking about this and thinking about it's time now at this particular point for for food trucks and I am an enormous proponent of food trucks but I'm also for them paying for the privilege of operating on public space so it seems to me that that would be a real avenue to to for them to pay for that and and and so I would like to hear a little bit more about how that process works because I think mr. Roden brings up important points about about competition non-competition how much how much can one protest and all of a sudden that that stops because that that activity not only impacts that food truck the food truck can go somewhere else but if if that particular establishment that's not serving food but wants to have that in the handy location it impacts that brick and mortar business too so so it's just I think it's finding that that the proper path Amy how many slides do you have left one so can we let her do her slide and then I'll sure I got several points I want to make and I don't want her to have to stand there waiting on our next slide and the last suggestion that we have for us to contemplate is the creation of a use in the Denton development code of food truck parks and commissaries we have had a pre-app for a food truck park we have had a lot of business interest in food truck parks I think it's an opportunity to focus on that revitalization point but also to alleviate the pressure that we're feeling in the parking spaces downtown and it's another opportunity for us to to funnel some of this activity into a channeled effort I also think that there's an opportunity here to have some discussion around public-private partnerships as it relates to food truck parks and commissaries because we want we want it we want a certain outcome and in it may be very difficult from a strictly economic standpoint to be able to create a food truck park and a commissary and not lose money on that essentially and so there may be an opportunity for us here to take pressure off of those public parking spaces by looking at a public-private partnership model for food truck parks so essentially I am proposing three options for you all to discuss today and make amendments to the existing ordinance to create a parking permit we would come back to you with some options and some policy suggestions just like we're working on for a valley parking ordinance and number two is to identify public parking areas for limited first-come first-serve food truck parking and policies to regulate that and then thirdly is to explore the uses in the DVC that might help accommodate this and and look at a public-private partnership model for that as well thank you mayor hysteria shock value so this is one where my my good friend Kevin and I are vehemently opposed violently agree we're not gonna really agree on this one no honestly I think because this I'm the one that asked for this to be brought back up in this session and us to have this work session because I think it comes down to philosophically what do you believe government's role is in private business right because of essentially what we're doing if we if we say we're going to give permits for a food truck to park in a public spot and sell their food as we're getting in there we're getting in the landlord business right so much so my issue is this because I think a lot of the things that in Amy's presentation are right on I think it's a great way to stimulate and revitalize an under served area well I mean the decision that was made for currently that we have an ordinance is a food truck can only go in an area that is zoned for restaurants so what's happened is the food trucks that are operating in many cases on public property which is against what the ordinance says is they're in the same general area as an existing restaurant and so so I'll just take so for where I stand on it is like Kevin said well what's the problem the problem that I have is we have an ordinance that we're not enfor cing part of which is we're allowing a private business to use public land for profit which is not I don't think we should be doing it and so we can give the example of well what's the big deal we have a bar and they want to have food available so their people don't leave and go drink somewhere else well they should invest in a kitchen and serve food but just because there's a fancy restaurant across the street today and you have a place that serves tacos in a truck out on the public street well who's to say that that restaurant owner isn't going to leave and then you could potentially have a taco restaurant in there and so now we as policymakers are in my opinion are given a food truck an unfair advantage a competitive advantage over somebody who's made an investment in brick and mortar location so where I stand on the whole thing is I mean there's a lot of good stuff in here I'm all in favor of obviously I love free enterprise competition happens free markets so let's let competition happen and let's allow for a free market and stay out of it somebody will invest in a food truck park somebody will invest in a commissary if the business model works somebody's going to make the investment but we as the city government don't need to be out creating a competitive model let's stay out of it because as long as people can as long as they can park on public property and serve their food on the city street no investor is going to create a food truck park because why would the guy pay rent to lease a space when he can park half a block away on the street so so I have I have I have a problem with I understand that the food trucks kind of all the rage a couple years ago right and it 's really exciting and it's different Austin's going crazy with it we don't have a problem with places available downtown for people to get food there's just no problem so and there's no problem with finding a place downtown to get something quick so I'm okay with if we said here's a underserved under area that really needs revitalization so let's try to do something economic development wise to stimulate some activity and get people to go visit this area that so badly needs to be revitalized I'm all for it but I can't I would never support something like this which is we're going to take away parking that's desperately needed we're going to allow a guy that sells hot dogs to park across the street from the hot dog restaurant who's paying property taxes and sales taxes and so on I just don't see I don't see the need specifically downtown for us as city government to get involved and create potential competition I'm all for free enterprise and let the private let the private market do it somebody will make the investment somebody will figure out how to make this work with a commissary and everything else and and if we're going to do it then they need to pay their way right that's why I asked for the staff report when you have two you have two out of seven that are registered and three out of eighteen that are paying sales tax and they can file their where I'm going to be report right they're supposed to file their map of here's where I'm going to be serving except they can do it 24 hours after they've already served doesn't make a lot of sense so how so you can't inspect them if you don't know where they're going to be that was the idea where they had to file their their chart or whatever we call it of where they have to be except they can file it the day after they were there so again I think if we're going to allow this we certainly have some things we need to clean up I want to violently agree with you so bad let's work let's work at it just a point of clarification from the city staff on this whoever can answer the question you started this off saying private businesses operating on public land for profit and that you were opposed to that concept we do that already it seems I mean we we have a concept of being able to pay for a permit to operate on public land arts and Jazz Fest any festival that has vendors in parks on streets you have downtown festivals all the time in which we have that concept operating so I think what Amy is suggesting is for the time being since we enacted this ordinance you're right the council did say let's lay off enforcing that particular provision until we kind of figure out how we want to do it one suggestion was let the staff come back and identify where those spots are and they came back with a map and I think a lot of us looked at that and said well that's kind of an inorganic way to approach that perspective so I think what she's proposing is to solve that very problem which is the law says that if somebody is going to operate on public property that there has to be compensation to the city in order to do so I think there's fairness to that I think the question is what does that cost if it's five thousand bucks a month perhaps that's prohibitive but I'm sure with reasonable minds can come together and what would be a reasonable cost for that that makes everyone feel comfortable the same way we're talking about the valet ordinance on that front so I think there's already precedents for us doing that as a city and doing that legally well except you're talking about I don't think you can I don't think you can compare for one year you can park here to Jazz Fest for three days I mean that's what so events are one thing and I get it right and there's and perhaps there's a way to think about this ordinance that the permit isn't tied to the particular vendor for that spot so if I'm a bar and I've got a spot outside of my space say outside of Oak Street draft house for instance that I could pay for say a $500 annual permit for that irrespective of who happens to come in there any given day so I'm not giving that permit to a particular business I'm giving that permit for the possibility that a truck could come in there and do business at any point in time so you're not incentivizing a particular business or whatever it's just to give that opportunity so the other thoughts on this Amy to think about as we were digging into this ordinance and we spent crazy amounts of time developing this ordinance we looked at other cities as we're coming up upon some problems or tensions or things like that because we all realize there are some cities in which they had kind of crossed this bridge before us they'd figured this out so to the extent that on this particular topic maybe you guys already have that we can kind of look at how other cities deal with this I think that's helpful it sounds like you had cited some examples along those lines as to the demand for for this sort of business in the downtown area I would just point to every time there's a food truck festival downtown thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people come down it's like shy of holiday lighting but our citizens I think have spoken time and time again through their pocketbook and through their attendance at these things that for whatever reason even though there's other restaurants available or whatnot that when something like this comes about they want they like this amenity I don't know why I like both last night I took my entire company to Hannah's we had a great dinner spent a lot of money on it sometimes I 'll take my friends to a food truck park but I think people like the options of what there are so as to whether or not there's a demand for it I think downtown has been booming with the existence the coexistence of food trucks without a problem and and I and I completely agree with you food truck parks are a great idea and food truck festivals are a great idea and so just finally one one last thought yes and I think we're coming to some one last thought in and again a direction for the staff all along in the conversation leading up to this we've gathered all sides of stakeholders to kind of talk about any regulations on this there's been meetings I've attended at the Civic Center I think there's again we have two years under our belt of this and I think the bar owners who are interested in this the food truck operators who have thoughts on this the other affected businesses who have thoughts on this and can point to issues I just think we need to get them at the table again to address this because perhaps they can even point to other issues with our code as we're kind of relooking at this that are worth addressing but I'd hate to just do this unilaterally without that sort of discussion. Mayor Pro Tem . Am I your friend Kevin? Most days. Because I've never been invited to eat by you at a food truck park or anywhere else. Come on man. You know I'm trying to work this out so that you and I can vote against each other on something Greg but yeah I know but but I but I don't think I'm trying to work out some some the common ground here when I'm looking at the options I think it's probably time or past time for staff to develop some things in our Denton Development Code about a food truck park what it should include what it shouldn't include you know and I think that it might be helpful to as we do that to look at the one that we have that somehow got there without without the benefit of the Denton Development Code so that it doesn't need to be overly regulatory because that seems to be working okay and it doesn't seem that we've had any kind of health hazards as a result of that itself so I think that we ought to the staff ought to move forward on on something in the Denton Development Code along those lines I think that that I'm most interested in and I think it's at a point where where it's time for them to the food trucks that are using the street are paying something somehow and and I'm okay with it with it that that a food truck parking permit maybe not be issued to the food truck but to the business that's wanting it close by so if it's Oak Street draft house that really wants this amenity for its operation they're the one that applies for it I mean I'm interested in pursuing it almost more from that direction than from a food truck applying for a permit in front of somebody else's business if it's it right in front of your business that business has got to be on board whether it's competition whether it's not competition because that affects their business that affects them being seen that affects that may affect people being able to use the sidewalk to get into the door of that business so I think they've got to be on board and I think by having them be the ones that that are doing the application then then we're ensuring that that that cooperative nature and for item number two the only way that I would be for item number two first come for a certain basis is if there's some type of fee attached to being able to use that public parking spot for a private business and I'm okay with doing it under those circumstances I like what council member rod in said with getting all the stakeholders together with the food truck operators and the restaurants and our staff I think back to when I wasn't a part part of this but as just a citizen I have not seen any issues or had any specific like conflicts when I go out like oh my god there's a truck stop you know what am I gonna do I kind of have the intention when I go out what I 'm gonna do I think that when we think about back to the towing ordinance a lot all the stakeholders were together and we came up with a really good ordinance that everyone agreed on and I know this is not as not as serious but I think when you get everyone together in a room good things can happen so I'm I'm for that I don't think I could support either one or two just based on the shortage of parking in downtown I hear that on a regular basis I experienced that myself on a regular basis that we just don't have enough parking downtown so one and two I just couldn't support I do see food trucks as a competitor to a brick and mortar who are at risk paying taxes paying payroll having to work hard to keep their doors open and many don't and experience that pain and hardship I wouldn't want anything that the city does to to make it harder for them you know they are playing by the rules so I think we need to really take a long hard look at this but until we address the parking issue in downtown I can't support one or two in terms of number three some kind of a food truck park I could support just because you know back to parking it's an issue and it is competition at that food truck festival maybe Amy you know this how many trucks are there and how many pay sales tax again from that I mean and Kevin I love food trucks that festival is awesome I mean it it makes everybody busy so it Kevin may know better than me on the number I want to say was 26 were at the last festival okay I in the last year I believe we've had three pay sales tax okay I'm confused by that if they operate in the city of Denton and they sell something they're supposed to collect sales tax and pay sales tax but that's that burden is on them to do that and and and we what we're trying to do now is supply our health permit information to to ensure compliance as much as possible but we don't we don't we're not that we're not the entity that would hold them that's what's frustrating about all this I you know I'm trying to say this delicately but I have to pay sales tax at all of my restaurants every month all the time so then here's 26 food food trucks who come into town and they all seem to do very well there's big lines and there's only a few of them that are paying sales tax but yet we're trying to possibly make rules to give them parking spots or the option to get a parking spot when there's no parking that a lot of the restaurants complain about they're not being parking on a Friday night when they're trying to come to a restaurant that's where my struggle is I want this to be able to exist somehow but I don't know if I can support giving up some parking for this so do we have an idea of lost revenue from that it's the the amount of sales tax collected is in the low thousands of dollars so there's not it's not a lot of revenue that that would be generated even if we were collecting sales tax from all of them that's yeah I understand the the unfair ness of it so I thought I would just ask about the amount as I recall we did get a informal staff report once about sales tax and vendors say like at the community market and the issues there and I'm wondering how that was solved or was thought about and if that could also be incorporated in this situation on sales tax the city doesn't have any regulatory authority it 's all controlled by the state and the state comptroller's office so when Amy mentioned we turn names over all we can do is turn that over to the state ask them to audit those folks to make sure they're doing it correctly in terms of the informal report we did on festivals the only kind of option we would have to ensure that the sales tax all stayed with the city that we threw out in the informal was to really have a centralized location if you think about when you go to the state fair or something you have to go buy those tickets well that way there's a centralized location where all the cash is collected and they can collect sales tax with that right there that would be the only really way to ensure and when we sent that informal out there was not a lot of support for that type of idea because then the festival would have to take responsibility for doing tickets and doing that beyond that it's the responsibility of each vendor to report and a lot of times when those vendors probably go several different places my guess is they're reporting sales tax but they're probably reporting it in one location where they took their sales tax permit out just because of the difficulty and in filling out those forms and even trying to you know calculate or remember how many of my sales were in Denton how many of my sales were in another city that's my guess so if we did go to number three that that wouldn't really take care of the sales tax part of our issue it would still be up to them to do the reporting of it yes and if we felt they weren't reporting correctly we can turn it over to the comptroller 's office and request an audit but that's all up to the comptroller's office we don't have a control over that okay okay Councilmember Rodin yeah I think this is an emerging market in the same way that internet sales will say that they'll struggle with this concept having to pay local sales tax because of the ambiguity of where the sales are coming from how do I keep track of all this you got potentially cool I don't I have no idea how that works at the state level of sales in multiple locales with one particular business I don't know if those folks are paying it in one particular place and not paying it in the others because that's where they're registered as you've mentioned we don't know that but I bet if we showed if we put a spotlight on any emerging business in our town young business just trying to start off we'd find all sorts of fumbles and problems and we have to think about that if we're gonna squash someone because all they made a mistake on sales tax or whatever it 's one thing to be willfully trying to rob the city of thousands of dollars or whatever it's another thing if corrected we're able to kind of find this thing but I certainly don't want to regulate an industry on the basis of concerns we have about how they're operating as a business in terms of all those other sorts of things I don't think we do that with any other business in town as it relates to how they we look at whether or not they're paying their sales tax what they're doing with the property tax other sorts of accounting issues that they're doing so I would just caution us from making regulations on the back of those sorts of things as it relates to parking Amy is there any indication that in the two years that we've seen this it seems like there's been at least in the last year a pretty general you can spot the locations in which these folks tend to go in my impression there's not a great proliferation especially since the advent of Austin Street truck stop that's taken some of them off the road in fact so it's not like giving you direction on one or two is automatically increasing the number of trucks that start parking on public property it sounds like what you're saying is let's just we kind of have a sense of what 's on the ground and let's just have a better way of regulating that it would give us the opportunity to to regulate but also mitigate and how many trucks are parked in public parking but do keep in mind that at maximum any given day we might have ten food trucks operating in Denton at lunchtime and so we're we're talking about ten across the entire city you're gonna have three or four at Austin Street truck stop you're gonna have one or two over by the University so we're not talking about a large burden in terms of parking spaces and but right now we're not enforcing any parking regulation so this is a way to potentially find a middle ground there where we have an ability to mitigate and regulate it yes you sure you know I've been okay with with not enforcing the rules about parking for a couple of years until we get it worked out just like I was okay with the suggestion let's not let's let's give some folks on University Drive some slack right now about their signs because or their wind devices or whatever we were calling those things because as they're doing the textile is doing construction along University Drive they need a break because people need to realize that they're still open so but I think in the long run we don't want to keep an ordinance on our book that we're not going to enforce we either need to take it off or we need to enforce it or we need to find that middle ground I always find the discussion about unfair competition interesting because to me if you can afford to invest in a brick and mortar you can probably afford the lower much lower overhead of a food truck and there are businesses that have both food trucks and brick and mortar places so nothing nothing I don't I just don't buy that as an argument that it's unfair competition because go go invest in the food truck and you can you can you know go there and do that also the I think that we ought to solve the parking problem but I don't think that we have the food trucks right now that are getting to park free around the square are not creating the parking problem in the square it's just not that's not the issue but if we have a way for them to pay for their doing business there and of course I would exclude the the area immediately around the courthouse it's it's it's angled in parking it doesn't work at all it's a bad idea so there would only be certain streets that I would even agree to allow the parking permits on but it's interesting that even with them being able to operate for free right now on the street more of them are using the Austin Street food truck park where they're actually paying a fee to do that then then then operating on the street because it's just a better experience for their customers so I don't guess there was any point except to hear myself Councilmember Johnson I fall prey to that sometimes though my wife reminds me regularly so I mean I want to just make it clear where I stand I'm not against food trucks I think it's a cool concept I'm against government getting into the the landlord business right and so so I think you're right so Austin Street truck stop works so why do I so the part for me is I'm not against food trucks I've been to other cities where it's very successful and it 's very successful because they have food truck parks or they have private businesses that have created a way for the part the trucks to line up on their private property so I love that idea and I would absolutely support number three because because until we build a commissary here somebody does our food trucks are going to have a very difficult time obeying the law following the rules that are in place nobody's going to go build a commissary if food trucks are allowed to park on the street because there's a potential revenue stream for them to offset the cost of the commissary that they've lost so you know it I find it interesting on this topic because I don't think we should make policy by saying it hasn't been a problem yet well we have an ordinance we're not enforcing it hasn't really been a problem yet or you know it doesn't but nobody's complaining well if you run a restaurant you're busy running your restaurant so I just don't see the need for us to go create this parking permit and it's because I you can't compare it to a festival it's different I just wants to do it right and that's where I'm coming from let I don't see a need for us as city government to get in this business we should be out of it and let the let the private market make it happen Austin Street truck stop works there's room for more to park there why don't more park there and and why would we say this bar over here who wants food available for their customers but doesn't want to invest in a kitchen that we're going to allow as the as the city then to park a food truck out front which so we always talk about the example of mulberry and Hannah's okay well if I own Sweetwater at the other end of the block I'm a bar but I've invested in a kitchen so I'm gonna have a problem with the city doing that and and so my issue isn't with food trucks I love it but if we 're gonna have them we need to make sure that they that we set them up for success number one somebody needs to invest in a commissary to make it happen so what are the things we can do to try to promote that get out of the food truck parking business so I'm not against them I just think we need to be careful about the policies we set and think about once we're twice the size we are now as a city how might that look any other questions or comments well that's what I'm fixing to ask it seems like well let me ask staff just want to ask staff what direction that they believe they've heard and then we can I'll save you no well I think I think there's a mix of direction I mean we've certainly had some some discussion both pro and con for the three items that you've put up there so in the spirit of the process and allowing everybody to vote I would suggest and recommend that unless it's going to take up too much time and this is also to help the colleagues help define this direction is that obviously number three seems to have a consensus number three seems to have a consensus on to explore a food truck park and or food truck commissary and and it I've heard that as councilman road and you what was that about okay okay all right no I'm just playing with you councilman road when you were talking about the different events that you've attended or that have been popular regarding food trucks they've been primarily food truck parks and the food truck festival and I believe that takes place is that on the DCTA parking lot or where did they where do they have that the last one took place it was a combination of around Austin Street and Austin Street truck stop which is Eastside Social Club and around their perimeter on public street okay and down around Oak Street draft house and across in the public parking lot across from Oak Street draft house because it seems like there seems to be a distinction between because we do provide certain types of activity activities that can have for-profit businesses on public lands ie festivals and different things like that that are sort of you know one time events or three-day events but nothing that is consistent throughout the year so it seems like there's there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of opposition to that because I think they still have to purchase some kind of permit I mean if the food truck festival is on some of its on public land whether it's land or parking asphalt there certainly needs to be some kind of permanent I think there may be if not then we can bring that forward I think the distinction seems to be can they have a permanent full- time you know what are the number of days my recommendation would be if you're able to bring back your recommend your your you know make amendments to number one to identify public parking areas number two and then we can vote on it I mean that I mean we can express sort of our our opposition to one and two and that's great but we can also if we still feel that way can vote against it if they come up and instead of necessarily killing it at this level have an opportunity for unless it's a time issue unless after I finish that my colleagues seem to indicate a stronger consensus towards one way or the other on either one of those two so those are my thoughts on that. I do want to add that food truck festival it made everybody in Denton busy I mean all my the restaurants they were slammed so I'm not against food trucks at all so I mean it was it's an incredible event and so I will say though in regards to the sales tax sort of discussion we do audits of if we believe that there's an issue with particular businesses or things such as that we can do an audit with the with the state to ensure that are we getting some kind of compliance so I don't want to give the impression that somehow that the payment of sales tax whether it be brick and mortar or whether it be a food truck is and depending on the amount is sort of not important I don't think that's what you were discussing you're just simply saying you don't think that should be a main regulatory issue with with that but we certainly want to ensure whoever is doing business in our city in whatever manner is paying the property sales tax I mean the proper sales tax to the community whether they be brick and mortar or just like we have to pay our property taxes so that's my direction on that and if council has something if my colleagues have something different than I certainly would encourage you to speak up now can I make one suggestion real quick yes there's an option to to address the sales tax concerns and in the economic development office whenever we do a sales tax rebate and we do an aggregate report we get an aggregate report from the comptroller's office of all the businesses that are participating so we get an aggregate report monthly on all the businesses in Denton Crossing it doesn't tell us how much they paid individually but it checks a box of whether or not they paid that month and we do monitor that activity and we could create an aggregate report on food trucks that are registered or have a health permit in Denton and begin at least monitoring that activity and generating some an outreach and education effort to help with that and that and I like the idea of a discussion simply because I think it could address issues like that I don't think anybody I'm not gonna assume that anybody's out there deliberately withholding sales tax from an entity where it's rightfully due so it might be that well they're paying it somewhere else because they think that's so it may just also be an education effort and we've had this issue before with other companies and we've had you know the state legislature weighing on this where someone's got a warehouse but they sell retail out of it whether they got a retail store here or not then sometimes those sales tax can in there to the benefit of wherever that warehouse is sort of that's the I guess the room store issue so this may be something along those lines that we just need to take a look at and and maybe we can find a way that if that is the case we can encourage them to bring their base here and therefore if they're out selling somewhere else and I just don't know what the state nature of the law is on that so is council okay with those options just bringing that back and then we can we can take them up separately in an ordinance or amend them out or something like that that yes one thing to add Amy I don't know if it's in the ordinance or if it's one of those things we were just allowing in terms of the flight plan if you will part of the requirement is that they have to notify where they're going to be and I don't know if it's written in there or if it's something that we just allow that they can file that the following day is it allowed up to 24 hours afterwards yes it's written that way so I would just like us to revisit that because I think the purpose of that is you know for your health inspections I mean to be able to know where they are located now if there's a comma someday we have a commissary here obviously that fixes it because you then get inspected at the commissary or whatever but until then just from a health and safety standpoint one of the things I was told by staff when I asked about this a while back was we really can't get them inspected because we don't know where they are obviously a food truck park fixes that and some of those other things so just as you think about this whatever you're gonna bring back to us I'd like for that to be considered thanks okay yes Councilmember and I had mentioned maybe bringing some folks to the table to have this conversation and if that works out I don't know what timing you have in doing this but at the very least if we could get at least a week ramp up time between the time we meet to deliberate on this next just I know if we got it on a Thursday a lot of folks in this business that's when they start ramping up all their work throughout the weekend and it makes it hard to to address that so at least some time in which that's out in the public and published online so that people can provide us with some feedback okay any other comments questions all right thank you we'll move on to agenda item 3b and as we do that I will be stepping out about 3 o' clock just for a few minutes to address leadership dent and so mayor pro tem will have that mayor pro tem will have the helm at that moment so just wanted to give you guys a heads up on that agenda item 3b which is receive report hold discussion give staff direction on the dent renewable plan and activities related to the future power supply plans to meet the city's growth and needs no sorry I didn't turn my mic on mr. Williams is going to present this item thank you Phil thank you good afternoon many of these slides at the beginning of the presentation I'll make it a public hearing tonight and that's what this slide deck is as most of the slides I'll be proceeding tonight I'll skip through the first few because you've seen them before certainly if you have some questions stop and we'll go through them as far as the executive summary and the direction given to DME and our portfolio portfolio goal that we're trying to go to the components of that as far as the renew ables being the larger proportion of that keep in mind that as we look forward to this renewable plan the contracts that we would put in place would fund multiple wind farms and multiple solar farms up to 300 megawatts 200 megawatts of wind 100 megawatts of solar along with this plan along with the market purchases that we'd have to fill in the gaps plus the quick start generation if I'd ask you just one clarifying question on that you said that the contracts you put in place were between 200 and 300 megawatts the contracts we would put in place yes for the renewables for renewables and our typically our load is our peak load at this time is 350 we go down to a low low period sometimes down to 150 okay so it ranges between those so an average is what what 200 over a year okay so you're what you're saying is you are contracting for more energy as far as in renewables than what we may need except for those summer months where we may have a peak that most of the time you know six to eight months out of the year we're gonna the renewables will be able to support our load as long as they're on the grid yes so as this chart here shows these are five months and so there are months when the renewables are providing a lot of our load and are close to providing all of our load and in those months we 'll even have excess generation from the renewables that we would be selling back into the market and so it's during the summer months that the renewable production goes down as far as to wind production and you have to and our load goes up we have to buy more off the market and we have to have some quick start generation to supplement that to meet the peak load requirements but yes there would be times of the year where you know this is our total load and you can see there there are times of the year during the shoulder months that the renewable energy production would be enough to certainly exceed 70% if you supply more than 90% which one of those colors represents our percentage of solar our solar contracts are listed down here in the bottom these are different types of wind that we're looking at okay so on the solar because my understanding solar is more constant and produces more during the summertime okay that was going to be my question okay is there a reason why we did we didn't do more solar as compared to when when you see see the big difference in percentages we we may do an increase in percentage to meet low growth in the future just looking at the price in the price of wind now is continually to decline over the years solar has declined also we've initially put out an RFP for wind we intend to put another RFP for solar next year solar continues to go down in price and so as it comes down in price we may we may contract for more solar I mean a mixture of wind and solar contracts will assess over time as far as the pricing of those and the low profile there is a lot of wind out there and there's a lot more history on a low profile production this wind in different locations solar it has been out for some period of time but there's not as much history on solar and the profile that wind of that production as we have on wind so in theory if we do get more solar in our portfolio the chance of us having to start the quick start would could decrease our yeah our quick start our buy off the market gotcha okay so go back here to the questions at hand so the new information provided to public utility board yesterday and that the council has not seen before don't want to give you a preview of before we get into hearing tonight one of the questions we've gotten from citizens is will this increase emissions and this portfolio compared to our business as usual now would decrease our emissions keep in mind the ERCOT demand drives the supply of what's supplied in the market so I mean basically we talk about reducing emissions right now we're meeting our demands with from TM PA and from ERCOT market and you can see the comparison of the emissions from those as compared to our portfolio that can say contain our new quick start units and renewable energy which would not help these emissions yes in the email that we got I asked how we did this reduction and the the answer of the 75% reduction came back and it said that it does not include the generation we plan to do for ERCOT so my question is will we not be generating for ERCOT and if we are can we please see numbers with the percentage of the runtime that includes generation for ERCOT we can then and the numbers but even the numbers including what we generate for ERCOT with these units the average for ERCOT as far as the heat rate the efficiency of those units the units we're talking about putting in would be 20% more efficient and therefore burn 20% less gas and would show an emissions improvement even from that but we can come back and do a study of that yes I want to clarify that discussion so what you're saying is if ERCOT is asking us to turn on our quick start generators to meet some sort of demand that would be us instead of some other perhaps dirt ier burning power plants that what you're saying in terms of the the the offset that would be there because some other power plant is not being called upon to meet that demand ours particular it are ours in particular is right these units because our quick start how flexibility and capabilities to other units in ERCOT would not so they would not have the capability to ramp up as quick and so they can ramp up and ramp down quicker and therefore burn less gas and and be more efficient in their response to their hot market needs than other units how many quick start generation gas plants are there that provide energy to ERCOT there I know South Texas Electric Co-op has 12 of these Greenville utility electric system in Greenville Texas has three smaller ones I'm not aware there may be some other ones on the coast they're deployed by within on the other side of the meter within industrial suppliers but as far as in the ERCOT market those are the ones I'm aware of so that's like 15 are aren't there a couple of new ones being built or that are online to come up to come online besides then do you know of I know another entity was looking and had bids out I don't know that they proceeded with those with those plans I can check with our cotton see if they filed any if there's any other filings for an air connection so we can check on that follow up on that I hope staff I hope staff is golden spread thank you how many units of golden spread have I'll repeat it yeah yeah you remember Mike you remember how many units government spread has okay we'll figure that out yeah we'll find that we'll find a different shot but had a question is golden spread in ERCOT or is it in the southwest power pool it's an SPP okay so it's in Texas but it's not in our car market what kind of circumstances need to exist for ERCOT to ask us to turn on quick start or is that written in an agreement or how does that work so as a market deregulated the agree the legislation indicated that everybody to hit generation units will participate in the ERCOT wholesale market and you would submit information to ERCOT as far as what's your price was to run your unit what your cost was run your unit ERCOT that's competitive information ERCOT knows that information but not everybody knows what everybody else's costs are and so ERCOT daily hourly minute-by-minute basis looks at that stack of units and determines what's the most economical way to meet the ERCOT load and so when they strike your units to run then you're obligated to run your units as they as requested so when you go back to that graph that you just had up there before are there chances in different times of the year where ERCOT could ask us to turn on quick start yes I mean in and you'll see in February there's a larger amount of quick start runtime and that would equate to like in February 2nd to 2011 when the more freezing weather existed further south than usually experienced you had large airing units that had pipes freezing and that they planned on showing up for that next day to meet demand which was increasingly because it was cold that didn 't show up and so they put out you know they extensively sent orders out for everybody to put everything on okay and just point of clarification on the strike price for entered for ERCOT asking you to run you're saying we submit costs to run the plant but you really with plants you have sort of two different types of gosh you have a fixed cost which is your debt service your plant personnel those things that are fixed and then you have your variable cost which is the fuel transportation all those things associated with that I guess that that's what you're saying is submitted to ERCOT is the variable cost that whether it's TNPA or XYZ generator that's a investor owned or whether it 's city of Denton with their guests it's there and so whatever they submit into the price for ERCOT that already from their business model whoever that may be they're factoring in what they're fixed cause they're saying this is what we'll sell this for irregardless or regardless of what they're fixed this is what they're saying is what we're selling it right you take like for example the South Texas project or Comanche peak nuclear units very large capital cost upfront very cheap fuel cost and so what they're entering is a very low variable cost because their their nuclear rods cost is pretty well fixed and very minimal to compared to the total cost of the plant and so but what they get paid is whatever the strike price was right so if you submitted $20 but then the market gets struck at $200 everybody gets paid $200 a megawatt hour so but theoretically if if everybody just got paid what their price submitted to ER COT was like this example you just gave $20 and $20 if they're just including their variable cost and that's not a very good business model I'm correct yeah okay so I mean they bank they bank on that they're gonna work efficiently in the Delta okay so this is basically a charter question I'm under the impression that it's in our charter that as a utility our utility cannot sell to anyone besides our citizens for a cheaper price than it does it's our utility cannot sell to anyone outside of Denton cheaper than it can sell electricity to its citizens to its customers how do we address that with the the ERCOT market and the pricing so we are at cost provider and we provide energy and electricity to our customers at cost the the energy that we provide today and there are times in today's without generation units with the power we're getting from Gibbons Creek that if we have contracted with other entities to to try to meet our load but loads come in lighter than we expected and we have more generation and more contract power than what our load is then that power is settled in their cop market and whatever the arch of market for strike price is and that's I guess that settle market settlements of our cot has been in effect since dereg ulation not really but I'll think about it okay well that may be I mean some of the particulars of that right maybe right for closed session depend on how detailed we get into the competitive matters but what you're but what I hear you asking is hey if we're if we're selling energy to our customers at $25 a megawatt hour but we go sell it to ERCOT for $45 a megawatt hour is that a breach of the charter in essence that's that's sort of what I hear you asking is how can we do that are we prohibited from doing that according to our charter okay okay yes counselor was for our citizens that are watching ERCOT is a very large Texas electrical grid so that when they hear our discussion of ER COT they understand that we are part of a very large Texas electrical grid so when the idea of the two power plants came forward it was well we need the power plants to fill the shortfall when the Sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn 't blow but I think in reality it's also to help ERCOT which is this very large Texas grid help supply energy to them so my question is we're looking at a very large cost on these power plants anywhere between 200 and 300 million is ERCOT helping to pay for the power plants since they're going to be a beneficiary in the whole big a large grid if they need help are they going to help us pay for this if we're going to be asked to help augment and supplement the Texas power grid so our cop and thank you for spot me about my acronyms and the Electric Reliability Council of Texas and that Council of Texas in the beginning years was a mainly and still is today concerned about reliability and a balancing between the operating control centers of which there were about 10 to 12 of in Texas in ERCOT that balanced the energy control between those and bounce made sure there was a balance between generation and load and that's what the nature of electricity is electricity is a unique service unique product that has to be produced on demand and so they're ensuring that electricity is produced at the same time it's used and that there's not a shortage and so at the same time with deregulation market that occurred early in 2000 they became also an entry into becoming a settlement entity for the ERCOT market and so every load serving entity which we are one of is responsible for arr anging for generation power supply to meet their load and if they don't make those arrangements then ERCOT doesn't let the lights go out that they fill it from the market and it's whatever the market price is at that time and so from a financial protection standpoint entities are sort of load are responsible for ensuring they have contracted for either through contracts with another party or have their own generation to supply their power supply to meet their load and balance that on a minute-by-minute basis and so that's the basis for why we want to look at these contracts it locks in the prices for a long term on the renewable energy plan but also provides a backup for when they don't produce to meet that so I'm sorry I'm probably off base here what was your question do they help pay power plants so the the the market the loads that contract for that the ERCOT is a market settlement entity it's kind of like the stock exchange does the stock exchange make sure that everyone's properly compensated in the stock market no they just settle it you 're responsible as a load to ensure that you contracted for the pricing and then you're responsible for what you sell it at and you can sell it into the market at market prices or you can track the selling at a fixed price and so when we sell into the market yes ERCOT is depending on generation suppliers to show up at a market price but that price is determined by the market and what other what everybody competes at and bids into the market of what that price sets out everybody bids in their variable cost and then the market settles of whatever that cost is as far as ERCOT so for our citizens to understand the debt is ours as a city utility not ERCOTs is that correct that is correct and so over a 20-year period we'll pay two billion dollars for power supply and so if we don't have generation units and we contract with other people to provide that power for us for that two billion dollars then in essence the theater through contract or through market we're paying for somebody else's plant as the mayor pointed out we're paying their variable cost and we're paying their fixed cost what this plan is putting forward is saying that we can incur the fixed cost of owning the generating units ourselves and by having those generating units ourselves and the efficiency is a brain we can buy the renewable energy at a cheaper price and sell energy into the market enough that lowers our cost over a 20-year period from two billion to one and a half billion including paying the three 220 million dollars of cost of the plant Mr. Rogan has a question. I think this is a helpful line of conversation because I think there is confusion as it relates to this because the thought is is that this seems to be just some 250 220 million dollar investment over and above what we would otherwise be paying if we were going out to the market and I think you just explained it as we go out and buy energy off the market we are essentially investing in someone else's power generation that they've invested in we're helping them pay off so anytime people are other entities are either contracting with us or paying for us to get to the point your question is there got helping well anytime someone's paying for energy that Denton has generated they are helping us pay off our investment they are contributing to that just like somebody paying rent for somebody else who's built a house and invested in that so to be clear the 220 million dollars if we're not investing in this are we saving 220 million dollars somehow by just going off to the market or is it as you're saying we're actually spending a lot more money by going directly out to the market paying for other people's generation plans and having no asset to show for it at the end of the day yes sir I believe you characterize it as a rent versus buy situation we're renting somebody else's unit and put and paying for the gas in it to burn in their in their unit and at the end of the day they own that unit and they determine the efficiency of that unit and therefore the emissions to me we're in better control of the emissions and the operations that of a plant that we own ourselves plus at the end of the day at the end of the 20-year period we own the asset mr. Johnson so as it relates to the load projection Phil I understand the logic behind the two plants redundancy and backup and those sort of things if we 're talking about six units at one and six and the other based on the load projections rolling out say for the next so this is 2019 if we only built six units instead of 12 what do you believe with a with a 70% renewable model do you believe that if we had six units that we could handle all of the capacity that was required all of our load and just based on the modeling that you guys have done not maintain rates which is the other balance of the balancing act we have to do is how do we incur and obtain all the rules who can and maintain competitive rates and so what we looked at is is addictive pricing we had on six units versus 12 was the six units would cost us about 65% of what the 12 units would cost so it's not you know it's not 50 you're going to the same similar design cost and so you're going to have a higher percentage of fixed cost related to those six units do you do plus you're not going to you know when you need to production you're not going to have it keep in mind that means you know if I'm still just going by in 70% of the renewables if I have half the generation capability in the summer that means I'm having to meet the other half at the market that means I'm increasing emissions I'm also buying power from the market at time the market prices are the highest okay so I want to make sure I understand it because I try to you know we get all these charts and all this stuff and I try to break it down to the simple bluebells a bad example but there did we eat all we can we sell the rest well obviously you want you and you've got to make sure you can supply and you got to make sure that the rates are competitive right and what I'm trying to sort through in my head is is there a is there an interim step right because because we 're hearing from a lot of people who are saying the emerging technologies are coming and they're improving fast and they're going to get there right so just wait I understand the balancing act right well I've got a I got to be able to supply Peter built and you and T and all you know unlike some of some of the other cities that are that are pushing to higher percentage renewables we've got a lot of industry here I'm trying to figure out is there because I like the idea of man it would I would hate it if we built 12 units and then somebody figured out the magic bullet on storage two years from now right there's a lot of smart people studying all this stuff so we haven't heard anything I haven't heard anything yet from all the people that I've talked to that that there 's an emergency technology emerging technology that's like in a year or two this thing is going to be commercialized so you're saying we can't because the problem I have and I'm rambling here because I'm trying to formulate my thought correctly is if we're having to go to the market because there's not enough wind and solar available doesn't does that mean that that's everybody else is in the market too so general so general economic conditions apply when everybody's in the market the prices go up right yes sir demand is higher highest in Texas in the summertime and that's when wind lays down some and so solar picks up and solar may continue to pick up but it's just picking up during the daylight hours for that those 80 degree nights it's still not there and the winds not there so so if you if you built six units half of what you're proposing then in the summer months that's all gonna have to get made up by market yes sir okay and that's that's you know that's that's where we saw and keep in mind we talk about the sales to ERCOT the major part of this use of this plant is to self supply our you know to meet our obligation to serve our load and also the other value of brains is to self supply what's called ancillary services in the market in other words along with electricity there's morning electricity you have to have a responsibility to regulate your power source as far as rate as far as regulation regulation up regulation down provide blackstar capability there's other ancillary services that these units can provide that right now we're having to buy and if we can self supply that that gives us savings and so the majority of savings from this is from providing those services to our load ourselves rather than have to go to the market the other advantage it brings us is at times there's differences in the market between buying day ahead or real-time and day ahead is just as implies buying a day ahead of the market and real-time if you wait and buy real-time real-time can be cheaper but you're taking the risk of what that real -time price is it's cheaper now 10 times one out of 10 it just kills you and so you don't take that risk you can take that risk if you have your own backup generation and you can buy cheaper power all the time mr. Hawkins and after you then I'm gonna ask a couple of questions - thank you mayor pro tem I had a similar thought you know could could this whole 70% renewable plan work if we just had six units and you know just in my head and maybe it's thinking too basically but if you just had six units and I thought it would cost 110 million but I guess it would still be 65% it 'd be 143 million so maybe I'm thinking of that wrong but I thought if we were able to pay off six units in ten years maybe that risk of technology kind of you know beating what we're trying to do isn't as great then but can you speak about kind of why that second six units is so much cheaper than the first six units I mean if I build a house right next to another house trying to understand that it just so if you design build the site that cost is is about there 's not a lot of difference between design building the sites for three and three or for the multiple units and so if no additional design build costs for adding the additional units the other thing is just the pricing from the vendor the pricing from the vendor is cheaper per unit for ordering 12 as opposed to them so okay but you know kind of you touched on emerging technologies and one of the things you know one of the technologies shows a lot of promise is battery storage battery storage that exists today is three or four times higher than the quick start unit so to buy 220 megawatts of battery storage now would be 600 million and that doesn't include anything that's going to generate electricity to go in those batteries so I still have to buy the energy to put in them and so the lifespan as it exists today is not as long as lifespan of the quick start units and so it's out there it shows promise the the the people who are calling us with hey I understand didn't say interested in renewable energy I understand you have interest in battery storage in the future but most of them are calling us with 20 and 30 megawatt type in all of the United States today there's 220 megawatts that's the sole size of unit a spread across I mean I think the largest insulation I've seen so far is one by Duke energy and no trees of between 30 and 40 megawatts and so yeah I think it has great promise but kind of like if electric cars are out there and that technology is there but how long would it take for electric cars to completely displace all the other vehicles on the road so I think the new technology will come about I think this is a bridge to get us there I think after this after this technology winds down I think batteries would be you know or some of the top storage or some other technology like that will be there to provide this kind of service but I don't see it being there quick enough that we'd want to wait and keep doing the emissions we're doing our fur go to price savings we can gain in the market by making this investment now you had a follow-up just to follow up maybe not specific to batteries but if solar were to have some you know better technique technology advances there that could help relieve kind of that some of that quick start too is that right it could certainly the quick start is mostly as you see you last in the summer months and most of that would be during the summer peaking hours but also in Texas we have a lot of electric usage during summer nights 80 degree nights and as much as we still have to still 24 hours a day I mean you've got you know industry here in town it runs third shifts and runs all shifts all night I want to jump in and ask a couple of questions and then I think ms. Briggs will be next then ms. Wasney do you have the chart that shows the price comparisons that the expense comparisons of the different plans the line yes so no it was the one that had the lines and the dots and this one talks about it in numbers I don't think I have the one here that has to graph well but I can talk about it in numbers anyway I mean what we're looking at in the next few years is some rate increases for our residential commercial customers anyway and if we look at that looking at other scenarios going 100% renewable or trying to go less renewable going without these without these plants or without backup or trying to secure back up from other sites we see a significant difference in rates and and so when we see the charge when we when we talk about a considerable expense for purchasing land and building to natural gas generation plants electrical generation plants that we're estimating somewhere around 220 million dollars we're figuring that in to these cost we're figuring that in to our comparisons so we and according to those charts the renewable plan with 70% and that's producing that gas generation ourselves is the least expensive of all of those options is that correct yes and that's that's including the cost of retiring the debt for the 220 or so million dollars for the two natural gas generation plants is that right yes sir okay assume 20-year debt I want to follow up on a point that miss Briggs raised and I think it's a good point about selling us selling excess electricity to the market and that you know whether it's a question of a violation of the Charter our Charter was done in 1959 correct originally when when did ERCOT happen and and the the the issues with with different generation suppliers being there to back one another up in case of an emergency so in the 60s I don't know not sure exactly where copy and I know it was around in the 60s and so during that time while we would have had the Spencer power plant we would have had opportunities to deal with other control areas and to sell power to other utilities to back them up and the same as we would depend on other utilities to back us up when our unit wasn't running it's almost like the agreements that we have with other fire departments in the region that that if we have a fire emergency that we can't handle that they have a mutual aid and they come to our benefit and likewise if they have a fire that's that's too much for them to handle we may send units to those fire departments to help with them yes sir they I mean with ERCOT making that call every four seconds as far as what the as far as dispatching and sending signals to generators of I need you to increase generation I need you to decrease and then along with that we have figured all of our estimations on our cost and all of our estimations on questions like emissions based on not operating those two gas plants 24 hours a day seven days a week but based on operating those about 35 or 40 percent of the possible hours that they could be running and so those estimations are built within our what we estimated that we were going to be generating for our and that we submitted for our air quality permits yes sir our modeling is done based on operating 12 units between 35 and 40 percent on average each year there certainly could be years we'd operate more than that those would be years like a 2011 heatwave summer that would that would cause more generation but the air permits were filed based on the first one was filed on the first site for all 12 units and because at that time we weren't sure we were going to look at a second site we looked at a second site we wanted to leave ourselves some flexibility in case we wanted to put more units at one site than the other and we followed for seven units at that site but so that would total 19 units but our intent is this model and this plan proposes 12 units running 35 to 40 percent most years okay now this brings so how many megawatt hours or how many megawatts will the 70 percent renew renewables create like what are we looking to generate from that portfolio excuse me just well our load our total load is a million and a half megawatt hours in a year so 70% of that would be approximate how many we're talking about as far as obtaining renewable energy very smart just to say that rather than try to do the middle man yes my other question is what's the generation difference when we're talking about six versus twelve well we're 12 we're talking about turning 20 megawatts so the six we're talking about 110 megawatts capacity okay thank you this was me so the city is a business Denton municipal electric is a business and a good business plan means having solid cost projections so we are planning our cost projections as we speak right now and our whole plan to keep rates down on the cost of natural gas but no one has a crystal ball it's cheap right now there are some talk of liquefied natural gas being shipped out of South Texas and that going out 20 years cost projections of the cost of natural gas because that is going to be key if these two power plants are built in order to maintain the justification for them which is to keep rates down so I did ask one of your senior staff how long can you really lock down the cost of natural gas and he said no more than a year so that means for a year we're relatively certain that the cost of natural gas will be at XYZ but when we're looking at investing in the next 20 years and our whole goal is cost projections that's a big question that I have in maintaining and holding on to the cost projections for these power plants because they are solely based on the cost of natural gas so that's number one number two when we talk about having an asset to sell at the end of 20 years I question that will even have an asset to sell at the end of 20 years because technology will have far surpassed that technology with the power plants and we're seeing that with the coal fire plant that we currently own and are currently trying to get rid of so I don't see it as putting an investment into an asset that is going to be worth a whole heck of a lot in 20 or 30 years because it's kind of like owning an old Apple computer that it may be interesting to look at but it may not be the most efficient so I think we have to look at this as a means to an end to keep rates down for our citizens rather than oh we're contributing to an asset that we hope will be worth some money in 20 to 30 years so back to the natural gas question because that's a big question for me because we're putting all our eggs in one basket for these two power plants generated on natural gas can you expand on future costs and how can we hope to estimate when that's such an unpredictable commodity so I would agree that you would not want to put all your eggs in one basket and I mean you certainly would not want to put it on gas gas is shown gas prices over the years have shown a attribute to be volatile very cheap now in 2007 not so much and so it shows a lot of volatility and so that's why the majority of this plan 70% is based on 20-year contracts with renewable energy providers that would provide us a fixed price and so what we've looked at and what we've modeled is when natural we've assumed the natural gas forwards market based on published forwards of what we expect gas to be all we know for sure if that is wrong that it'll be different than that but if we assume gas prices were a significant percentage higher then this plan looks better because we will have fixed 70% of our megawatt hours at a cost per megawatt hour to these renewable contracts and so the only thing that's unpredictable about those is when they'll produce but as far as low profile that they will produce and they'll produce so many megawatt hours for us we're you know 70% of our we would be sitting better in the market when gas goes up because we will have fixed the price of 70% of our supply at a fixed price as far as the remaining amount of it that's based on natural gas those natural gas prices affect the whole market and what we've seen in the past when we've had fixed contracts based on from our coal unit which we look at today and say oh it's bygone technology but during the times of high gas prices that has maintained the rates for the citizens of Denton at a lower level than the rest of the surrounding market for years I mean our prices are challenging to be competitive today but go back for several years our prices were 10 to 15 percent below the market and one of the reasons that we were able to be 10 to 15 percent below the market was because we had a fixed price coal unit that had pretty well coal prices were pretty well fixed and the rest of the market was depending more gas and was more volatile it was a higher price and so you know the reason the bad thing about fixed price contracts is is when the variable price goes down like it is today guess is a historical low amounts then you know you're sitting for fixed price and you're challenged to be competitive but for over the long term having a diversified portfolio of having our solar and wind come from different sources and having those prices fixed would diversify our supply and therefore minimize our risk of higher prices and minimize the effect we'd have from higher gas prices I mean our hope would be that these units don't run because that means we're in the money on our contracts we're buying off the market and units aren 't running but they enable us to go buy renewable energy at the cheapest price possible so miss wasn't he has a follow-up and then it'll be mr. Johnson and I think we all understand that that it's not the 70% renewables because we are able to lock in the long term cost for wind and solar my point is that these two power plants are fueled by natural gas and that we are unable to do the same thing with natural gas in terms of locking in long term cost rates for that'll fuel these two power plants it's at 30% that's that's the big question and so that that's my concern you know in terms of there is no locking in a 20-year natural gas price to fuel these plants they're just it's just not out there you could but you will fight the price to do because somebody else taking risks but I guess that's the point of our plan is is to us at dinner dependent that the value of these plants just isn't their use of gas but how they back you up and able you to go buy those 20-year fixed contract at their lowest price that's the insurance you need to back up your back up that purchase to protect yourself from the volatility of the market okay mr. Johnson so you may have just hit on it Phil this because I'm just trying to look at it from a simple point of view there's been a lot of discussion about the plants and you know what the emissions would be if they're running at full capacity and those sort of things that am I looking at this right that really what this is is a 200 million dollar insurance policy so is there anything that so we've got we've got fixed price contracts on the on the 70% based on the megawatts that we need right if if solar for example it's just it's just really sunny everywhere on a Tuesday and we're paying 20 bucks a megaw att hour on our fixed contract but there's a ton of supply out there and so the going rate that day is $15 does anything preclude us from buying additional capacity at the $15 so in other words if we're short I guess that's what our point is is that if we're buying that much renewable energy during the shoulder months we're going to have some excess generation that we would bought at $20 a megawatt hour the markets 15 I'm gonna have some excess generation I'm gonna be selling back into the market at $5 loss and so that's why we you know people ask why didn't you go for more that's the tipping point we see as far as if you go much more than that you're incurring more hours that you're selling that energy back into the market at a loss then is profitable for you otherwise well no I guess the point I'm trying to make and well not trying to make the point I want to make sure I understand it is let's say that your your your demand on a given day in the summer is your 70% is completely your what you've planned to buy on renewable you've already bought it all yes your cost to generate with the quick start plant is whatever 20 bucks but you can buy it on the open market at 15 right does anything preclude you from buying the sole additional solar oil on the open market if you've already you're using everything you've already committed to at the 70% no so I mean that's exactly what we would do right so I think that's what you're trying to say when you say we would hope they'd never run right but it gives you leverage that okay well I can make it for this if I can buy something for less than I can make it for I'm not gonna make it but if the market price happens to be 20% above what I can make it for then I'm gonna make it and that's what allows us to keep the rates down right so correct so it's really an insurance policy is what we're talking about so the question is over a over a 20 year span I'm assuming the analysis is if we're at the mercy of the market we're not making anything we believe that over a 20 year span we're able to keep our rates lower by investing this 200 million bucks then we would be if we just went 100% with the open market yes sir I mean we our belief is is that as we've gone out and asked for indicative pricing from other sources of hey let's don't build this unit let's get that back up from somebody else well the price and the qualifications they put around that have been essentially what they've been is combined cycle units and they put the qualifications on to make it operate just like another combined cycle unit which is a four-hour minimum runtime you're gonna be running a unit and taking the energy you don't need for hours and so the price would be billions of dollars more than if we just had to unit ourselves okay thanks mr. Hawkins thank you wanted to go back to a Kathleen was asking about the natural gas prices if it if natural gas did cost more for us to start our gas plan would it just naturally be more off the market too I mean one and all prices kind of go up yeah there are two variables that determine the market price in our car one is the gas price and one is the average efficiency of the units that could convert that gas electricity the average in our cot is about what it's called heat rate and the average in our cause about 10 heat rate takes 10 units making the electricity these units are 8.4 heat rate so it only takes 8.4 units of gas to make a unit of electricity and so they operate more efficiently and so while the gas price is volatile our we we've staked one variable we're not subject to the market on the other variable we have fixed out the efficiency of units that will run that gas okay I think I understand that I mean we're picking we're being able to pick we're able to pick the highest miles per gallon car okay on the lot to run the gasoline through to go that many miles okay mr. Roden and then did you have something also mr. Roden thank you a couple of questions back to this get gas question because at the last discussion we had on this I had asked for some we were comparing a lot of things as it relates to business as usual so there's a lot of discussion about how many extra gas wells have to be fracked in order to power this which I thought needs to be in the context of how many gas wells have to be fracked in business as usual in other words what is empowering our current portfolio compared to what's powering the portfolio under the renewable dentin plan and we received a staff report on that so this is all in the context of the volatility of the gas market which I agree it's there's a lot of unknowns in that market looking ahead but that report that was sent to us on Friday said that the renewable dentin plan consumed 37% less natural gas than business as usual I guess that's what you have up there right right now so if that's our concern at least as it relates to what we're doing right now the volatility of the gas market we're in a much worse situation under our current portfolio so the question would have to be if it's not this plan is reducing that dependence on natural gas clearly if not that what are we depending on for that insurance policy so to speak is it coal is it nuclear what else are we going to be investing in in order to do that so I just wanted to point that out is there anything you wanted to add to my analysis of the 37% no I mean that that's that's the question of one of the questions and concerns of citizens has been certainly in didn't a concern that we would be causing more gas wells to be drilled in order to operate a plant I mean it seems intuitive my goodness how can you be adding two gas plants and not be adding to the demand for gas and the answer that is is we're putting two more efficient units in the stack of ERCOT to dispatch so when these units are dispatched that means 220 megawatts of less efficient units aren't being dispatched somewhere else in ERCOT usually ERCOT has to operate so many plants around large load centers like Dallas Fort Worth and so operating 220 megawatts here means there's 220 megawatts most likely of gas generation around the Dallas Fort Worth area that is less efficient they would emit more that would not be running and you know ERCOT's gonna meet the same load whether we build these plants or not and so if we don't build these plants are more efficient that means somebody else can keep operating some gas units that's older and less efficient and emit some more so thanks for that on the question of purchasing the 70% and you've you've made a couple comments as we talked about that that I just want to clarify for my own sake you mentioned that in order to go out and lock in these contracts at this particular price that us having this insurance policy of our own quick start generation allows us to buy it cheaper that rate cheaper 20 years out it does that mean that if we were going out to the wind market or the solar market absent quick start generation that we had that we'd be paying a higher cost because they'd be selling us something that also has it's backed up through some other means well I mean if we went out and bought that same wind energy and we didn't buy the backup for it it means we'd be putting citizens at risk and whatever the market price would be to fill in that gap right but if we if we didn't want to have to take that risk and we paid somebody else to supplement the wind energy or the solar energy with backup from another source then yes that would be at a higher price so the folks were contracting with for solar the folks were contracting with for for for wind energy they don't care where we're getting the rest of it from in order to back it up in other words they just have one product to sell us and it's at that cost regardless the market seems to be separating that the nature of people who have both fossil fuel generation and wind energy and and our solar are two different sources or different people I mean there it's going to be a narrower market of people that would have both the capability such as our wind contract that have both the generation capability gas generation ability to back up the wind power so you'd be looking usually going to different sources for that so is there no such thing as a 20-year contract for backup non solar non wind generation that we could enter into there would be but it'd be at a higher price and that I mean that's that's the reason we came to this conclusion in order to get the best price the cheapest prices that we're seeing out there in the market one of the people are seeing to provide drone backup provides the way to go get the most renewable at the most economical rates thanks after ms . Briggs I want to make a comment I think I'm just gonna save mine for the meeting out so we can okay because I was I was just counting up we have a closed item agenda we're gonna have the same presentation I think outside yes I'm just trying to give you all preview of it I think I've gone through most of the slides so then anything else that needs to be covered all right thank you mr. Williams do you all need to stretch or can we plow ahead all right we're pl owing ahead okay Jennifer says plow so item C receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding the notification process utilized by the development services mr. manager thank you mr. mayor I'll ask Amy Bissett our director of development services if she would present this item as well thank you mayor pro tem and City Council members we were recently asked to hold a work session with with the council regarding the notification process that we use in development services and we have received a tremendous or we have processed a tremendous amount of notifications over the last two to three months which probably precipitated this request and I know that you all have some of you have heard from some of your neighbors and your constituents about some concerns related to the notifications including not getting enough notice or notice is being incorrectly labeled addresses being off not having received a notice or not being included when their neighbor was and so I want to just take a brief opportunity to explain to you the different types of notifications that the planning division specifically deals with what governs those notifications and what processes we have in place to to minimize errors so there are several actions that the planning division is responsible for that require a public hearing and therefore require property owner notification and those include some sort of zoning amendment or change in a zoning district exceptions or variances to zoning regulations and the creation or modification of a historic landmark and you'll you'll see on the screen that there are various levels of public hearings that take place depending on what the notification or I'm sorry what the what the hearing is zoning changes go through planning and zoning Commission and City Council variances go through the Zoning Board of Adjustment and historic landmarks go through HLC PNZ and City Council in every case every board has a public hearing so where do we get our requirements for notifications related to public hearings the Denton Development Code defers to the Texas local government code in this instance so this is a state law that determines how we handle notifications and first of all we have to publish the notice a notice of the public hearing in the local newspaper at least 17 days in advance of the meeting and we also have to provide notice to property owners within 200 feet at least 12 days in advance of the meeting and that has to be sent by certified mail and we have to determine property ownership based on the Denton County Appraisal District so all of these processes and how we make these decisions are determined by Texas local government code. Councilwoman Brinks did you have a comment ? I just have a question there has been and I have received complaints about the engineering department and things that that's things that they schedule and have some people have asked if how that notification process works with the engineering if they're going to do certain projects do they have to notify ? That's outside of the scope of the planning and development departments I'm not sure there may be somebody in the room that can speak but it doesn't go through it doesn't go through the same this same process that's okay thank you. Additionally we do send courtesy notices when a public hearing is involved to property owners within 500 feet this is not required by Texas local government code but we did as a city adopt an ordinance in February of 99 that said we would do this as a courtesy and I also want to clarify for you that when an item goes to City Council after it's gone through HLC or P&Z we publish the public hearing notification in the newspaper again at least 17 days in advance but we don't have to re-notify the property owners of the same public hearing so we don't do the mailing at the City Council level they've already received it at that point. So what how do we how do we process a notification? Each applicant pays a $220 notification fee and this absorbs some of the cost of mailing the property owner notices and paying for the publication in the Denton Record Chronicle and the staff then prepares those notices and sends that sends them to the newspaper and prepares the property owner notices. Our GIS team creates a map reflecting the subject property and the 200 foot and the 500 foot radii. We export that data from the Denton County App raisal District to receive the the mailing list essentially and then the mailing template which I'll show you in a moment is sent to a professional mailing service for processing. This is an example of one of the templates they each of our notifications looks the same it says notice of public hearing at the top and shows shows the GIS map with the property with the property in the surrounding 200 foot and 500 foot lines. So I just want to briefly walk through what this costs us. This is a sampling of about 10 weeks worth of public hearing notifications and it there were 14 mailings totaling almost $3,300 in this sample and this started in September of this year in this sample a single mailing ranged and cost from $28 to $860. It's really dependent on the volume of the mailing or the density of the number of property owners within the the the number of question. So this is physical physical mailers that are sent out is there another way like through text or email that that notifications can be sent out or driven a single notification to drive someone to to an area on the website to to see this? The way that this process works is dictated by state law so we have to mail physical mailing and physically publish a notice in the newspaper. If we had a way to keep a database of property owners email addresses that could potentially be a backstop but we don't have any way to So like it would be both you would do just to kind of cover . Okay. The other question right here. Some of those smaller signs that you see on the corners you know announced is that part of state law too? Is that just courtesy? I think it's a courtesy. We post those anytime there's gonna be a public hearing just so that anybody driving by will notice it. In addition to to these costs we also publish in the Denton Record Chron icle so in the same 10-week time frame our professional mail service is about $ 3,300 and our publishing costs were a little over a thousand and that was 14 notifications so the average cost to for the mailing was $235 per mailing and then the public the average cost to publish was an additional $75 per per publication so it costs the city in this sample of about 10 weeks $310 per mailing or per notification. Describe what is in the Denton Record Chron icle when you say legal notice. Is it a legal notice? Is it something that okay? It is a very technical technical legal notice and that's required that we post it that way. In addition to public hearings that were required by law to mail these notifications we also just to increase transparency recommend that developers host a neighborhood meeting if there is some sort of public hearing that's coming or if we think it's a project that may be controversial in nature for any reason we always recommend that they host a neighborhood meeting and we we see that that meeting as an opportunity for them to answer questions to hear neighborhood concerns to take suggestions and to mitigate issues and it's not mandatory but if they don't conduct it we make sure and report that to you during the public hearing process and it's and it's a part of our analysis performed by staff. In this case the meeting inv itations come from the applicant and I think this is where some of the confusion may lie. We provide the applicant the list because we have the capability of pulling that data and but we just send it to them and we send them a neighborhood meeting checklist and a guideline essentially for here's how to host a successful neighborhood meeting and we suggest that they do it and we give them the information in order to make it happen. So in the same time frame that we had 14 mailings for public hearings we had an additional 13 neighborhood meetings where invitations were mailed out by the applicant or the developer and so I think that I to we I received several questions over the the last several weeks related to notifications and I there was a lot of it was some confusion between what's coming from a developer and what's coming from the city and and how how those differentiate and why and that's really the information that I have to share with you but I'm happy to answer any questions. Mr. Roden? You know I think there's two ways of thinking about it obviously there's there's what we need to do to be in line with state law and I think your question is right on I mean when you when you there was these folks out of Canada that were concerned with how local governments were presenting themselves and were looking at things like public notices and stuff like that so they did this this showing in their City Hall and they said what if other companies trying to market themselves get the attention of people presented their marketing materials in the way that city government presents their notifications of things happening so they gave an example of something like this new Nike presented this new shoe and it's just all text it's just and all these legalese it said no one would buy that shoe no one would even pay attention to the announcement because it's not utilizing even up-to-date modern design standards for how you get somebody's attention for something so I think it's I think all this sort of stuff is worth thinking about how do we go above and beyond for the sake of getting people notified and I think that's technology aff ords a lot of ways I mean we've seen a lot of examples out there in terms of even a sign being able to give you a number to text to get information right there to send you directly to a website but I think the crucial question that I think as we explore this because I think it needs to be explored is how much of that is on the back of the city and how much of that is we're putting on the back of the person who's got something that they're putting forward so in terms of those notifications on another level and I'm glad you brought up the the engineering because there's almost a sense in which how we approach these different notification process that depends on what city government part of city government you're dealing with DME has its own plan of its public process planning has its own plan engineering it's not clear there is a plan as it relates to those sorts of things so one of the conversations we've had in the ramp up this Bloomberg data question when we had the citizens come and pitch some of these ideas one of their ideas was a website called WTH Denton what the heck or maybe you can add another expletive what the heck didn't which it seems like we've already started kind of building on so on our open data platform there is a place for community projects of interests or something community activity maps what it's called we've talked with planning about how they can maybe utilize that all that to say I think there's a number of tools that are accessible to us already that if we really just kind of put our nose to the grind on this particular issue I think we can get better at so can I speak to two things related to that two initiatives that we 're working on in development services today that we have not rolled out yet that will help address this one is related to proactively marketing the department and telling the community who we are and making sure that we're interacting with them in a in a in a way where we're initiating that and we are we're creating an image for what we're trying to accomplish and in the department and and secondly we're working on putting together a team that 's across multiple divisions that's focused on making recommendations to to me about what are what are the best technologies we can use that we're not using today and so we'll pull you know our most tech savvy employees together to to basically come up with some recommendations for management to look at on how can we use tools that that are cutting edge from a technology standpoint to to help assist with this well thank you for bringing this forward because I'm the one that asked you to do that so I appreciate that and and if the council would bear with me it's our responsibility as a city government to provide timely development information to our citizens and we haven't twe aked this system since 1999 and think of how much has changed since 1999 some but not all of the issues that we've seen in the last few months Buc-E's I have heard from so many people who said they were notified on a Monday for a meeting on Wednesday and that's just not for me as a council person adequate time for people and so you know I think we can do it better the fry streak oak h ickory high-rise building I hosted the first meeting and so when the second developer meeting came it was poorly attended because to Amy's point I think the developer was in charge of the mailing but nobody really knew it was taking place I'm district three wrap I didn't even know it was taking place and I got a call from planning at noon the day of the meeting to say oh by the way there's a follow-up to your meeting at 630 tonight so it's it shows one more break in the link there is a possible high-rise going up on scripture and the 200 500 doesn't encompass the whole neighborhood so that there are people over there who have made their own flyers and they're going door-to-door trying to hand out flyers basically doing what I consider the city's responsibility which is notifying a neighborhood of pending development so inspiration development is what brought me basically to City Council because that's what started the whole journey the 200 500 on inspiration development covered just a very small handful maybe six or eight homes out of all of ropes and ranch yet this was a development that was going to be right next door to us with 30,000 people and no one was getting mail notifications about what was happening and so it underscores just one project that the that the 200 500 just fails to meet that was in 2008 it's almost 2016 we still have the same notification system in place so our current system falls into two categories that I think we could we could hop on right away and at least start getting the the information out to our citizens one is the developer meetings where he's agreed to meet with our citizens about a project and I think we need a little tougher matrix for that developer so that it's timely but also the meetings are located in the neighborhood there was a neighborhood on University that they galvanized to fight some commercial development and the neighborhood meeting was originally scheduled over in the loop so that those people on West University had to rush hour try to get over to the loop for a neighborhood meeting and so that was difficult and I think it's a matrix again that if you're going to have a neighborhood meeting have it with some proximity but that comes back to a matrix that we could build to help them do a better job the other is a 200 500 and I'm not in favor of changing that I'm in favor of augmenting that system because we know there are people who live outside that very restricted geographical area who are interested in whatever project is coming take a look at coal ranch if you did the 200 500 those are all cows and gas wells yet that's going to be a big project and people are going to be interested in knowing what it is to be part of that process so we come down to what can we fix and what can we fix quickly and efficiently and build on that and one is our city's website that everybody knows city of Denton calm and have a box on that very front page so you're not having to go through three or four clicks to find it and have a box that goes up on Thursday afternoons when our agendas get posted because most people go to the website Thursday afternoon or Friday morning to take a look at the agendas for the following week and on that box on the city's website front page is a list of here are the public meetings that are going on the next week I'm not talking about boards and commissions in the public hearings but the 200 500 notification and also the developer meetings so that a perfect example is the fry Street oak high-rise in that initial meeting we had 30 or 40 people they were from all over the city that came that wanted information if you strictly went with the 200 500 you would have a very little corner of UNT and a lot of commercial but you wouldn't really hit the historical neighborhoods that are really concerned about that part of town so we could put that box up also to augment the Denton record Chronicle when we did one of our surveys of where do people in this city get their what source was their primary source for information about what's going on in the city it was a Denton record Chronicle well yet let's use that tool they 're not reading the legal notices and I think because in advertising it's all about consistency and I think if the city bought a square a space and had calendar of meetings calendar of of whatever it is you want to call it and same thing posted on that Sunday issue for the following week here's what's going on here's where it's going to be located the time we also have a city Twitter and a city's Facebook and I think all of that needs to so that we work the social media but this city has fallen short my opinion in including as many people as possible because my phone rings off the hook and I get a lot of emails where it's ketchup ketchup ketchup oh I just found out ketchup ketchup let's figure it out I don't have all the answers but we have a smart planning department we have great people on council let's put our heads together and come up with a solution it's going to make all of our jobs easier it's going to keep our citizens in the loop of the information that they are desperate to find desperate to learn and we are making it my opinion as hard as possible to try to find them and I know that when you click click click click click you can eventually find things on the website but people get confused so let's put it on the very front page of the city's website and give that a shot okay I do want to I absolutely hear your point about putting it on the front page and I did have to click through this a few times but I do want you all to know that we are publishing online all of the public hearings that are coming up and when the dates are where they're located what the current zoning is what the proposed zoning is and then in making a strong effort to be as transparent as possible and also be as interactive and as user-friendly and communicate in as many ways as possible and so we've worked on some new tools lately some of our staff members have worked very hard to come up with some interactive tools for the website to help address some of that and answer some of those questions and we'll continue to try to make those improvements and my point is keep it simple keep it clear make it very easy to find and I know that you've worked hard at having all of these projects accessible and I really appreciate that but I come back to keep it simple that's the number one rule in advertising and ultimately we're advertising to let people know when and where and what and I think we can we can fine-tune that so thank you for your time on this absolutely Councilmember Rodin thank you thank you council member Wozni for those comments it and I think this is probably just going to take more time to discuss and dig into I think that couple of examples you gave obviously 200 500 is going to be triggered from a certain legal requirement based on there's a particular project before us for deliberation the developer meetings and some of the ones you cited I'm not even sure there's even any project in place in the city that would require those so we'd need to think about at what point could a city demand of a particular outside entity who wants to have a neighborhood meeting you have to do it in this form or fashion given that they may or may not even have a project before us in the case of the Buc-E's in terms of our current policy maybe this is what you're getting at there was no requirement for them to do any neighborhood meetings let alone what the ramp-up time is to make sure there's notification for those sort of things so I think there's a couple different layers that I think you 're rightly pointing out need to be addressed there's probably a different way to address thinking far in advance of projects that are coming that are just trying to float out concepts like fry Street and these other sorts of things versus something that is pending it is actually before us in the next month or so different requirements are going to hit I would just suggest as a as a couple avenues of maybe continuing this conversation given that some of this has kind of been live discussion in that Bloomberg discussion that perhaps this ties into one of the projects that's being considered for that or there's a way to at least tackle a certain part of this with that so we can just have that continued conversation with that group that's talking about it there's also the Council Committee for Citizen Engagement that this is kind of right up the alley of something to be worked on or incubated or discussed on a more long-term basis certainly bringing you on board to discuss that as well since you have some ideas on this and anyone else but I would agree I think we can continue talking about it and I do appreciate the stuff that has been done you know I'm looking at something that was I saw piloted in Dallas and it was this group that was interested in how people in Dallas could have a better sense of what's on the agenda of a City Council meeting because it's especially it's a large city and it's it's a cumbersome agenda so they played around with the concept of how can we geographically highlight agenda items on the basis of where they are happening in the city so somebody can almost kind of look at a map and see kind of a highlight and say oh that concerns me or there's nothing on here that concerns me in my area of town but just another way of kind of playing around so I again appreciate it and I think I think there's a number of tools at our disposal now and so let's just get better at it any other questions comments yeah we I'm sorry great yeah so so I am I am a major proponent of providing as much data as you can and as easy to find way as we can and certainly there's always been there's been talk about a revamp of the web website what I just want to be cognizant cognizant of is so for you know the Buc-E's for an example is well it was a courtesy neighborhood meeting wasn't required yet you know we've got staff that are now going to be doing their day job all day and then over there at night I think we just have to be a little careful on that unless we want to change our ordinance but the zoning changes require a name public hearings and we require a neighborhood meeting to happen for a zoning change notifications neighborhood meetings I think we just have to be careful about our staff's time because if we want to start doing neighborhood meetings on things that don't require neighborhood meetings I just want to be careful about you know I think about when we leave here on Tuesday nights at midnight and you see all the staff hustling up their car well they got meetings tomorrow morning and so at some point you know you've got staff doing stuff all day long and then they're doing meetings in the evening and I just want to be I want to be cognizant of as we think about what what are the other things we want to go do be respectful of the of the resources and the time and it may mean we have to add resources but that's I think a policy decision we'd have to make I do think though that the the way people find their information today is you know they're clicking and and the Buc-E's for example a lot of the people that I spoke to thought that they were there to discuss whether or not Buc-E's should go on that property or not or whether we wanted a Buc-E's or not and that really wasn't the topic of the discussion so people can also get misled by we're having a neighborhood meeting so I think communication of the facts and a clear and concise way on the website is really important as well. And my point with the developer meetings because many of them are voluntary is that if a developer comes forward and says yes I'd like to do this then we hand them a matrix to say fine here here are the here here's the matrix for a meeting here in the city of Denton because this last minute notification of citizens is not working and so that's my point if they come forward voluntarily and say I'm happy to do a meeting and many of them are open to that and happy to do that. I've hosted two meetings with developers big developments where nothing has even been presented to planning but in their whole you know reaching out to the community they've agreed to come but I think we need to have need to have a matrix and also you know use use some of the tools that we already have at our fingertips that we're just not using. Okay staff do you have I guess direction on this or or just is this just a report how's this posted? Receiver hold discussion give staff direction regarding notification utilized by the development service. Do you have direction on? Yeah mayor I think if I could I think we heard a lot of good suggestions and maybe we need to come back to you with some suggestions of what we can do practically and what might take a longer time frame to get implemented. All right fantastic all right thank you. Moving on then to our next agenda item is agenda item 3D. Receive report hold discussion and give staff direction regarding proposed economic development chapter 3.8 agreement with US aviation LLC for business expansion at the Denton Enterprise Airport. Thank you mayor and I'm gonna call on Caroline Booth to present this item which also have I think on here a closed session discussion on this should we need it and an action item. Good afternoon mayor and council members I'm going to brief you on an incentive request from US aviation group which is one of the corner stone companies at Denton Enterprise Airport. I'm gonna be covering four items first giving you some background on US aviation group second I'm gonna tell you how this request aligns with Denton's current incentive policy and economic development strategy. I'm gonna give you some details of the project itself and I'm also going to tell you about the economic development partnership board's recommendation for the project. US aviation group began its operations at Denton Enterprise Airport in 2003. Since 2006 it's been owned by three equal partners all of whom are active in the businesses management. Over time its footprint at the Denton Airport has expanded from one hangar to seven buildings totaling more than 100,000 square feet. USAG's corporate headquarters are located at the Denton Enterprise Airport. It has a second campus in Grayson County at the North Texas Regional Airport and also conducts flight training at Alliance Airport. USAG operates three divisions its world-class flight academy provides training to domestic and international commercial airline and corporate pilots as well as the US Department of Defense. Their helicopter division offers training for law enforcement and other government entities along with charter helicopter services. As a fixed-base operator at the Denton Airport it provides fuel, hangar, and aircraft management services to corporate and private clients. The company has a fleet of more than 90 aircrafts and employs over 225 people. USAG is a supporter of nonprofits and education in Denton including the Wounded Warrior project, the UNT aviation logistics program, the Civil Air Patrol's Denton squadron, Evers Elementary School , and the Denton Air Show among others. The DFW region is a center for the aviation industry in the United States and Denton has a role in that economy because of the Denton Enterprise Airport. The airport is home to many thriving aviation companies and has an aggressive plan for future business development. Given this, aviation is a targeted industry under Denton's economic development strategy. The strategy includes recruitment of new companies as well as the retention and expansion of existing aviation businesses. Denton's current policy allows for incentives to keep existing companies in Denton and to facilitate their expansion. Some items that factor into our analysis of a project's potential benefit to Denton include creation of knowledge- based or high skilled high-paying jobs, an international or national headquarters location, and if the applicant is committed to actively supporting the Denton community. Within the aviation industry, the market for pilot training is growing rapidly and demand for USAG's training services continues to expand. To capture this opportunity, USAG must expand its existing flight simulation training space as well as purchase additional simulation equipment and aircraft. USAG estimates a 10.7 million dollar outlay on new simulators and aircraft. This investment will lead to the hiring of at least 16 new employees including senior instructors, program managers, and technicians. The estimated new payroll will be two million dollars. With this expansion, USAG will be able to provide four to six weeks high performance training for an additional 300 students in Denton and the expansion will also allow the City of Denton to capture additional fuel commissions. Under Denton's incentive policy, an investment of 10 million dollars qualifies a business to receive a three-year incentive and USAG is eligible to receive a 50% rebate based on the project's attributes. Given the tie to Denton's strategic economic development efforts in the aviation sector, USAG track record of investment in Denton, and the competition posed by the North Texas Regional Airport, the Economic Development Partnership Board recommends an additional 20% rebate for a total of a three-year 70% rebate equalling roughly $155,000. The estimated ad valorem tax revenue the city will capture on this investment over 10 years is more than $583,000. Council approval of this incentive request will help ensure that USAG's expansion and investment into its facilities and flight training program occurs at the Denton Enterprise Airport. I'm happy to take any questions that you have. Thank you Mayor. Can you go back to that previous slide? The 10-year city cumulative tax revenue is above and beyond the rebate that they're getting? Yes, this is the revenue that will receive if they receive the rebate. If they receive the rebate. Okay, thank you. Councilmember Rakes? So I was looking in the in the backup and they had asked for the 50% and now I see that you guys recommended that the 70 % and also said that they have done projects in the past with no abatements and I was wondering if they've done anything that was this significant in price in the past, if it compares to anything or if this is just a lot, this is all new like with this amount of money. Okay, I'm gonna be able to answer the first part of your question and then I might ask my colleague Quentin or Michelle or even Mark Taylor from USAviation who has joined us to help out with that second part. But the Economic Development Partnership Board reviewed the materials that USAG presented in their application and decided because of their past investment in the community, their growth potential as well as the fact that they have a second location in Grayson County at another airport which has also provided them some incentive so there's a competitive aspect there. They decided, the Economic Development Partnership Board decided to offer that additional 20% because they have that flexibility within the policy but those were their reasons for doing that. And then as far as the, is this a project that differs from other things that have happened in the past? Quentin, would you like to speak to that? Okay. I can give you the general information if you want more specifics. Mark Taylor is here representing the company but when USAviation Group began at our airport in 2006 when this group of investors came in, you know there was three investors and two aircraft in their initial flight services. They now lease over 500,000 square feet of property at the airport and of course lease revenue from properties, one of our major sources of revenue to run the airport. You've seen the statistics about how the company has grown in employment. They've invested in numerous hangars and have over 100 based aircraft so all of that growth came without the economic incentives that are now being offered to others. So this is a projection of growth from this point forward and as was mentioned they have expanded so much that now they have three locations. This is their headquarters and this is where we hope to keep them and keep their expansion going here with their training services and their new investment. Any other questions? I have a question if you go back to the jobs. This one? Yes. I want to make sure I understand that because you said the new payroll based upon this expansion would be two million dollars. So unless my math is off, that's over a hundred thousand dollars in a new employee and I saw I just want to make sure that I'm not missing that and it's my math off on that . Okay. So I want to make sure I'm understanding that statement. Okay that is a question that I'm gonna have to defer again to Michelle. Did you have any further information or mark about that payroll number? That was what was in the application. Okay. So I don't have the answer to that right now. We can check into that and get back to you if you'd like us to. Okay. All right. Kevin did you have a...oh all right. So that was I was looking for... you'd mentioned in the backup that it asked for... is the application in the backup? I didn't know. Yes it is. Where is it? You just keep scrolling down. Oh on the US Aviation Group agreement? On exhibit 1? I'm on page 15. Okay I must... I didn't go down far enough I guess. Okay so a couple things. Then so on the application because I know they there's a there's a spot in the application where they can make a request and so that request was 50% and then they make a there's a there's an item in the application or an area where they can talk about the new payroll based upon the expansion. So I guess my question would be and if if if there's if we can get an answer if we know does that is my thinking accurate in that regard that if with this expansion it's 16 new employees and that that means because of this inspection this expansion as a result of this expansion it's going to create an additional payroll of two million dollars which is directly attributable to the new 16 employees as on the slide. Introduce yourself and that's great yes. Mark Taylor is one of the co-owners of the business. Hi yeah Chris I can I think I can sure they don't let me play with numbers for a reason so I'm not the numbers guy but I'll be happy to shed some light on that. This this particular asset that we're talking one of the assets we're talking about the bulk of it is the simulator. Getting into the simulator world is a completely different ball game from from just doing ab init io training like we've done in the past. These positions will be very high- tech very professional level positions and that's that's probably the best answer for that and then of course you got payroll burden there as well. I can tell you right now we have employees that are in the hundred and fifty thousand dollar range right now. Great. So that's that's not out of line. Okay so yeah. I don't do the numbers so. But you're saying in that with the with the type of expansion with the simulator equipment and instructors and the technicians to work on those in the industry in general those carry higher payroll salaries because of just the nature of simulators and those those capital costs and the intricacies of that particular kind of technology and equipment. That is absolutely correct. Fair enough. You bet. Okay that's good. Thank you very much . And again I enjoyed the the the what do you call it the oh what's the Discovery Ride. The Discovery Ride. That was that was fun and they got to fly the helicopter a little bit. Man I tell you I'm surprised I'm even still here. It was very good very good. So again thank you for that. All right okay I think that answers my question. Thank you very much. Yes Councilmember Johnson. Caroline. Yes. I'm trying to recall the details of discussion at the at the partnership board meeting. Aren't there USAG owns aircraft correct? And some of those are based here and some of those are based elsewhere? So part of the discussion would be were there things that Denton could do to incent you to locate additional aircraft here. I think I remember some of that discussion. Yeah. Okay thanks. Okay any other questions? Oh yes I'm Councilmember Rodin. So this is on the consent agenda I guess as an item. Yes it is. Okay so is that that's kind of struck me and I should have brought this up earlier when we were doing that. Do we typically throw these sorts of packages and consent agenda? I typically seem to see them as an item for individual consideration. We do have a closed session item on it and an action item on the consent agenda but clearly. If anyone wanted to pull it off. Which I have no interest in. Okay thanks. Okay any other questions? All right thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you Caroline. Thank you Mark. Appreciate it. Thank you all. All right that ends our public portion of our work session meeting. I will we don't have another one do we? No . I will now convene the closed session at 423. We will consider the following items. Consultation with attorneys under Texas Government Code section 551.071. Deliberations regarding real property under Texas Government Code section 551.072. Deliberations regarding certain public power utilities competitive matters under Texas Government Code section 551.086. And deliber ations regarding economic development negotiations under Texas Government Code section 551.087. Good evening. I wanted to welcome everybody to this meeting of the Denton City Council on December 15, 2015. It is now 637. Our first item on the agenda is a pledge to the US and Texas flag and please join me in standing if you're able. Thank you. Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to thee Texas. One state under God. One indivisible. We have a couple of proclamations and presentations. Okay. Our first presentation is by the Denton County Friends of the Family. So if you would come on down and share with us. Hello. My name is Toni Johnson-Simson. I'm the very proud executive director of Denton County Friends of the Family. On October 25th, which October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month, Denton County Friends of the Family celebrated our 35th anniversary with a gala, Purple Rain, as in rain, R-E-I-G-N, rain over domestic violence and sexual assault services in the city of Denton County. At that time we presented a beautiful inscribed Tiffany Crystal plate. Councilman Gregory was here. It was really much prettier than me standing here. Well yes. He kept that at home. In honor of the support that City of Denton has provided to the organization since 1980, serving as our very first initial funder, believing in the efforts and the work of providing services and safety to victims of domestic violence and sexual assault here in the city of Denton. So for 35 years the City of Denton has been a proud supporter, a champion of victims rights, and a believer in the services that we provided Denton County Friends of the Family. So we thank you. That very first year the agency budget was $10,000 and the City of Denton was the sole provider of the entire budget. Today we have a budget of nearly two million dollars and I'm okay if you want to be that same level of supporter again, but we thank you so much for your continued dedication of helping us and assisting us to serve the citizens of this community for the past 35. Thank you. Thank you so much. Well and thank you very much for the services that you provide to our citizens. It's a great service that you're that you providing. Thank you very much. Our next proclamation or volunteer appreciation for Eureka to playground project. So all that are involved in that that want to come down, come on down. All right. Fantastic. Now I'm gonna ask who's the spokesperson? Come on down. We're gonna give you a chance to sort of share with us and then let everybody introduce themselves. How are y'all doing? I wanted to thank all my amazing volunteers today. We rebuilt Eureka. If you haven't taken a chance, go look at E ureka the number two Denton dot com. We're still selling picket so you can buy individual pickets 19 characters $50 perfect Christmas gift to put under the stocking. So it helps with the money to finish our Eureka project. It was a community build amazing experience. I can't even explain all the hours, the rain that we had pre build the labor, the people that would just drive by and see us working and want to come help. So great project. And I'm so thankful for the city for the whole community that supported this. And now take a chance and let everybody introduce herself. Yeah, I'm Mark Culp and I'm president elect for the Foundation board that helped raise the funds last year. And before I pass this, I want to say that Chrissy did an amazing job. We had over 3000 volunteers out there rebuilding the park. It's fabulous and should be ready for use in January. And I hope everybody comes out there, adults and kids alike to enjoy it. We're very proud of the accomplishment. My name is Kendra Reedy and I retired after 50 years at more business form slash art only in December and I needed something to do. I don't do housework, don't do windows because I work for 50 years. So I needed something to do. And I saw Eureka and I thought that'd be kind of a fun thing to do. So that's what I've done for the past year and I've enjoyed every minute of it. They gave me a title of top volunteers. So I guess that's where I was. My name is Nancy Willis and I was the chair for the food donations. I went to the local restaurants and got them to donate 200 meals to feed our our volunteers. And so there were several restaurants who pon ied up their food and several other businesses who brought food and fed our volunteers. I'm Stephanie Linla. I was the volunteer chair, so it was my job to recruit those 3000 volunteers to build the playground for all of the kids. Hi, my name is Melissa Cooper and I was a fundraising chair . So I was in charge of all the fundraising events that we have with the restaurants and local universities. Thank you. Let's give them a big hand. Thank you all so much. And I know that the Denton City Council had a work day out there and I wasn't able to go that day, but I saw I went a couple of days before that. And I will tell you when you walk up, they either give you a wristband if you're familiar with power tools or not. And so when I walked up, the question was, and this isn't the real question, but it's about do you know what a power drill is? Yes, I do. So I was able to work and what a great time we had with everybody and it was phenomenal to see the progress that was made and the volunteer hours. So again, thank you all very much for the great gift that you have given to our community and everybody that helped in that. So we have a proclamation here that I'd like to read a pro clamation by the mayor of the city of Denton, Texas. Whereas to acknowledge to acknowledging the dedication and hard work of five community volunteers to the Eureka to playground project. And whereas the volunteers were Chrissy Maloof, chair of the Eureka to playground project Stephanie land. Look, Lou, is that correct? Len now, sorry, I apologize for that chair for volunteer recruitment, Melissa Cooper chair for fundraising, Nancy Willis chair for food and kinder Reedy number one volunteer. And whereas their perseverance made the Eureka to playground project in South Lakes Park successful with over 3000 community volunteers participating in construction week November the 10th through 15th of 2015 this year. And whereas the Eureka to playground will provide a safe place for all Children to play featuring adaptive playground equipment that conforms to the American Disabilities Act. And whereas these volunteers live the parks and recreation mission to enrich lives and build community through the stewardship of public parks and open spaces and diverse recreational opportunities that foster lifelong wellness, creativity and learning. And whereas playgrounds foster an environment for discovery and learning that is unique to Children. And whereas the city of Denton recognizes the benefits derived from the Eureka to playground and the volunteers who committed hundreds of hours to the completion of the project. And whereas the dedication of the five volunteers to the Eureka to playground project be honored for their outstanding efforts and commitment to the Denton community. Now, therefore, I, Chris Watts, mayor of the city of Denton , Texas, do hereby declare and proclaim December 15th 2015 as Eureka to volunteer commitment day in the city of Denton and encourage all citizens to join together in honoring their Eureka to playground committee for their outstanding efforts and commitment to the Denton community. Thank you all very much . Thank you. And I've got the proclamation. all very much. Thank you. The Denton City Council has adopted rules of procedure, including a code of conduct, which applies to citizens as well as council members. These rules were enacted to promote an orderly process and to preserve decorum. Here is a brief review of the rules that apply to citizens reports. Citizens will have four minutes to give a report. There will be an electronic beep when time has expired. If the remarks are not concluded by that time, the citizen will be asked to stop speaking. If the citizen does not cease and a second request is made, the mayor will request to have the citizen removed from the council chambers. Citizens are asked to not approach the dais. If a citizen has papers or other materials to hand out to the council, please let the city secretary know and she will have a staff member distribute the materials to the council. The attorney general has ruled that council members may listen to citizens speak and may ask questions of citizens for clarification of the issue. Council members will not engage citizens in discussion of a topic because to do so could potentially be a violation of the Open Meetings Act. When speaking to the council, citizens are to direct all remarks and questions to the council as a whole and not to any individual member. Please refrain from making abusive, personal, impertinent, profane or slanderous remarks. Anyone who violates this rule will immediately be removed from the council chambers. Citizens adherence to these rules will help make an effective presentation and will preserve the order and decorum of our proceedings. Copies of the rules of procedure are available from the city secretary. Okay, agenda item number three is presentation for members of the public. Our first speaker is Mr. Mark Moffitt regarding various issues. Mr. Moffitt, if you'll come down, state your name and address and your time will begin. Good evening Mayor, Council, Mark Moffitt, 2708 Crater Lake Lane, Denton, Texas. Gentlemen from Place 5 may be interested to know I got my pilot's license back in 2000, so I am a pilot and during that time I remember I took my checkride back then and what I did, we had to climb an Asessna 152. I had a very large gentleman that sat next to me. It's a two-seat airplane and we had just enough fuel to get the checkride done and we got through that. One of the things that you're required to do during that process is to do a simulated engine failure where you have to land the plane on off-field landing. Very, very intense deal. So we're up flying, the guy pulls the throttle back, he says you just lost your engine. We're dropping down. We get down about 20 feet above the ground somewhere out west of town near Justin. I have no idea where we're at. We're coming down and I have no intention of landing this plane, okay? No intention to land in the plane and I'm waiting for the guy to tell me, okay, you can pull up, all right? Well about the time that we had a line of trees and a fence in front of us, he said, all right, pull up, okay? So we circled around, we got back to the airport here in Denton and he says, all right, well you about almost killed yourself over there on your emergency landing but you passed. I said, all right, sweet. Good. So I went inside and met with my instructor, my primary instructor, and he said, well you met the minimum requirements now. You've, you've, you need to continue practicing so that you don't kill yourself or someone else. You almost did it out there during your practice test. So I got to thinking about this. What if we were riding in a commercial airline? We boarded the plane, the captain comes on and he says, ladies and gentlemen, this captain so -and-so, I'd like you to know that I've met the minimum qualifications to operate this aircraft. I don't think it would inspire a lot of confidence that, you know, he's capable of flying that aircraft. He's met the minimum criteria but it doesn't give you a lot of confidence. And last Monday we watched a session of council here talking about the issue of ethics and what appeared to me in my analysis of the discussion that took place that day was a pursuit of the minimum standards for the ethics policy that was being proposed. Two weeks ago, you may remember that we had a fairly vigorous discussion over an issue of B uc-Ease. That issue's dead. The Moffat household has moved on with life. We had the democratic process unfold and that's good. We expect that to happen. And while we may have disagreements over public policy issues as to whether or not we agree or disagree with Buc-Ease, whether we like fracking or not, whether we like the convention center or not, that's okay. That's part of the democratic process. We should have those discussions. We should never have a disagreement over what standard of ethics that we should pursue. It should always be the highest standard available and possible. The minimum standard should never enter into the equation there. And every single member of this council should have it as its top priority to one-up each other on the issue of ethics and transparency and civic involvement with the citizens. In the work session, there were some discussions about the difficulty of bringing this ordinance together and making it a - making it happen. I understand those issues. Those are legal challenges that we have to discuss. I get that. But the reason that we don't have a policy is not because it's difficult to enact. The reason we don't have a policy is because we don't want one. We all have family members that have suffered from cancer over the years. My father is one of them. And while I understand that surgery is painful, the cancer can kill you . Thank you. All right. Thank you. Any - Councilmember Wasney. Thank you for coming to speak, Mr. Moffitt. If you were to enact an ethics ordinance, what would you like to see included in the ordinance? With all due respect, Ms. Wasney, I think that's an inappropriate question. I don't think that's the way to ask it. I think the way to ask that question is what do you not want in there? And I think also the process that we've looked at is backwards. And I would suggest to you a different process. I think we should start with the highest caliber of ordinance that we can find, and we should have a honest, genuine public discussion with citizen input about what should be struck from that highest level of accountability and ethics. So I think there are two issues there. I think we need to ask the right question, what do you not want in there? And number two, the process needs to come from the correct direction. Start from the top and work your way back. You'll end up with a much better process. All right. Any other questions? Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you. All right. Now we come to our agenda item 3C, which is additional citizens reports. We do have a card from Ed and Carol Soph. If one or both will come down and state your name and address and your time will begin, and then we have additional slots available for anyone else who didn't fill out a card. And it needs to be something that's not on the agenda for tonight. Just so you know, she wrote what I'm gonna say. Okay. I'm Ed and this is Carol Soph, 1620 Victoria Drive in Denton, Texas. We and the board of directors of the Denton Drilling Awareness Group would like to thank Mayor Watts and Congress, sorry, not yet, Council woman Briggs for initiating the Gas Well Safety Emergency Seminar, which was held this past Saturday in these chambers. We had an amazing group of participants of first responders and environmental experts, and it was really a very positive experience. And we also want to thank all of the people who circulated and filled out the Gas Well Safety Survey, and there's about 380 folks did that and gave a nice cross-section of what people knew and didn't know about gas well safety in Denton. Great thanks go out to the Fire Marshal, Laura Bar ons. She really is the one who did all the heavy lifting with this, and without her help it would not have been the success that it was. Looking ahead, hopefully we can work with the city again to get useful information such as signing up for Code Red, informing people of existing gas well locations, emergency procedures, evacuation protocols, and health, general health and safety information. You can never assume that everybody knows everything. Survey responses indicated the public would like air monitoring at gas well sites. That was the overwhelming message of those 380 surveys. So air monitoring, increased setbacks, especially with the case of co-location, vapor recovery units, and we hope that council in light of these concerns will revisit the ordinance to consider these protections. So thank you so very much for allowing this to happen and promoting it and A plus. Thanks. We have a comment or question, Councilmember Wasney . And thank you because it started with you and so my question for tonight is that it was filmed by the city. Would you like to see that video placed on the city's website so that people who were not able to attend can watch it from their home? That's a terrific idea and especially if they put the link on the city website and as well on the gas well inspection website that would be phenomenal. Thank you. Thanks. Okay thank you. Thank you. Okay before we go on to the consent agenda items I wanted to just make an announcement regarding agenda item 6B. It's my understanding that we had a discussion at least in clarification of agenda items during the work session talking about the resolution that was attached to the public hearing posting and it seemed the consensus was that council would discuss that but it the indication was that that was not going to be considered tonight but we didn't go over that in agenda item I think work session B but wanted to relay the conversation because there was some confusion about that and so wanted to make that announcement ahead of time before we get to that agenda item. All right consent agenda agenda items consent agenda item 4. Councilmember Hawkins. Thank you Mayor. I move approval of consent agenda items A through R but we're gonna be polling J and P for individual consideration . J and E. P. P. J and P. Okay. Okay councilmember Rodin. Second. We have a motion and a second for the consent agenda excluding items J and P which will be items for individual consideration. Let's vote on the board please. Motion carries unanimously. We will now take up consent agenda item J which now has become an item of individual consideration. Do I need to read that caption Madam City Attorney? If you would please. All right . Consider approval of a resolution excuse me of the city of Denton Texas affirming its desire to remove FM 426 McKinney Street off the Texas Department of Transportation roadway system directing staff to submit official correspondence to TechStalk regarding this desire and providing an effective date. Thank You Mayor. Mr. Mark Nelson who is our director of transportation will open this item for discussion with council. Thank you Mark. Thank You Mr. Kendall. Mayor members of council if to answer the mayor pro tem's question I thought I might hit a couple of points here in terms of purpose of the resolution status of the project and then move forward with that if you've got questions after that I'll attempt to answer those questions otherwise John Davis from our engineering department may handle the technical component. So again purpose of the resolution before you this evening is essentially providing or authorizing staff to interface or negotiate with TechStalk in terms of removing FM 426 which is McKinney Street off the state roadway system. So essentially what that resolution does is allows staff to work with TechStalk on options to move that project forward. Project description project description is essentially as TechStalk has it a reconstruction of the current two-lane roadway from Woodrow to just east of Billy Ryan High School from a two-lane roadway to a divided four-lane road roadway. They've estimated that project in the neighborhood of about 18 little over 18 million dollars. That project budget was established approximately eight years ago when TechStalk advanced that project as part of a RTR regional toll revenue project. Current status is TechSt alk has not been advancing that they have some other priority projects. They have been they had project designed to roughly 65 percent a number of years ago but they have not advanced it past that point and here within the last 12 to 14 months have been working with the city and regional transportation council staff to look for opportunities to get that project back on schedule and advance the enhancements outlined in that project description. So in terms of the draft outline if council were to approve the resolution we would engage TechStalk with an official request through the local area office here to talk about removal of the project from the statewide system and we talk a little bit about and have and negotiate the economics of the of the proposal in terms of the funding that would be made available as well as out year costs associated with it as well as looking for additional funding to complete the project should the 18 plus million dollars not be able to complete the entirety of the scope as it stands at this point. So with that that would conclude comments that I would have and be happy to answer any questions that you may have. Mayor Pro Tem. Thank you mayor. So the reason that we are asking to take it off the TechStalk inventory and assume the responsibilities for it as a city street is so that we can move the project forward at a faster pace. We believe so we believe it might move at a quicker pace if it if we were managing the project schedule but it would still require some design component as well as right-of-way acquisition and construction. And so it would be helpful for folks to understand for us to understand what kind of timeline we're still looking at in terms of assuming this resolution passes how long it might be before the transfer of authority goes to the city how much longer it would be then before we would start with our engineering design the movement of utilities those kinds of things. What kind of a timeline are we talking about for the project? Councilman another reason for asking the state to transfer the facility to the city would also to be to reduce the cost of our utility relocations along the roadway there. With a being a state roadway our utilities have to be relocated outside of the pavement there which requires us to purchase a number of easements up and down each side and bear the total expense of the length of the utility relocation there so we anticipate that transferring it would also reduce the city's total cost for utility relocations. But and I'm not asking you to commit I know that that that these projects I mean this is construction there's always a lot of variables but but just roughly what kind of a time frame would we be talking about? So on the conveyance a minimum would be six six months but that's that's a blue sky estimate so we're looking at a six to twelve month time frame from start to finish if the resolution passes and starting to engage the area engineer here in Denton and then from that point on we're probably looking at a roughly a at best a four-year a four-year time to complete design and initiate and complete construction depending upon as Mr. Davis indicated depending on easements what easements or right-of-way wouldn't need to be acquired that could also impact. And that conveyance also includes the 18.2 million dollars that they had earmarked for the project. That's correct yes sir. And in the meantime do you do you see the possibility of if it's four years away is there a possibility of creating a pedestrian pathway along the north side of McKinney Street from loop 288 or from Mayhill to Ryan High School? Yes sir that's a that is a possibility there however we would not be able to keep that pathway in existence except for about a year and a half to two years before the new construction would tear it out there the widening of it would tear it out and we've roughly estimated this time this is very roughly that it would cost about two hundred fifty thousand dollars for that temporary pathway. And the construction of the new street would include sidewalks is that correct? Yes sir sidewalks on both sides and hopefully wider sidewalk on at least one of the sides there to be a trail walking path and bike trail. I don't have any more questions here thank you. Councilmember Briggs. Mayor Pro Tem pretty much covered what I was thinking and what I wanted to ask. We did approve a housing development on McKinney last time we were here which is going to add more children more likely walking to school so the sooner we can come up with a solution to get them there safe the better. Thank you. Councilmember Johnson. Thank You Mayor. Mark or John do you know will we be required to utilize the design that TexDOT the preliminary design they've already done? We had some citizens here when we were talking about the the affordable housing project very concerned about drives and access points and some of those things. Do you know if it's been completely designed already or? There was a 65 upwards to 65 percent design through TexDOT if it comes off systems and we would use our we would use our standard rather than the TexDOT system so there would be some redesign components to it and probably be a little more feasible to work with. Okay yeah we just appreciate if we could if there would be an opportunity for like what we did on Bonnie and Bray for some citizens to have input we can look at the businesses that are up and down there and think about traffic generators and where we locate those median cuts and all. Thank you. Noted. Seeing no other questions councilmember Briggs. I'd like to make a motion to approve. We have a motion Mayor Pro Tem. Second. Let's vote on the board. Motion carries unanimously. Oh I'm sorry no. I forgot a speaker. Where's Mr. Huspeth? We're gonna have to we're gonna we're gonna unwind that. We're gonna we're gonna unwind that. I have a card for Mr. Willie Husp eth to speak on this issue. I apologize Mr. Huspeth sitting right in front of me . No I apologize. You bet. I'm gonna change my speech. Yeah. So let me be clear that you took that vote off. Yes. Yes. Madam City Attorney. It's done Mayor. Okay all right. Yes we have the official word. Good. Yes. I'm Willie Huspeth. I live at 623 Newton. I'd like to speak to this issue. In 1980, 85 I spoke before this council about that walking to Ryan High School and I said in one of those meetings you won't do anything until someone's killed or badly injured will you City Council and I said that to them and I said I wanted on record that the pathway to getting to Ryan is awful. I drove a bus during part of that time and I couldn't I could hardly pass up McKinney without hitting a student. They were just in the street. I can't blame them. To the right is a ditch. We are not I'm not willing I don't think you should be wait four years to do something about that pathway. So I want on record again somebody's going to get hurt. Here's what you do and it doesn't cost two hundred and something thousand dollars I beg you pardon to put dirt out there. Some kind of stone we have it at the landfill. Just put Geyer did that and Geyer is another one that's bad. They have built up an area on the right and it's this it's ground up tires, dirt, it's some kind of field or something that they have at the at the landfill. Just put that over there. Let's do what we did out at Eureka Park. Let's get some volunteers heck our volunteer. Let's just put some dirt out there and raise it up so the kids are not in the street. The heck with waiting four years before. Watch somebody's going to get hurt and then all of you will then say oops maybe we ought to do something. Well that's oops now and put something out there . We have city crews put some dirt out there. Put something that you can and the guy said they're going to tear it up. Who cares if they have to tear it up? One child spared I think is worth it. Now I'm gonna be back. If I hear someone gets hit and they get hurt I'm gonna be right back in front of you and say now what. So my point my thought is put some I'm calling it a dirt. Whatever guy or did. Now their kids are out of the street. Let's do that at McKinney until we get the road built. Couple questions. Councilmember Briggs. Did you realize did you know that two children have already been hit by cars in the past year? I know one just recently. Two in the past year. Well I'm telling you come on guys. Yeah. Councilmember Johnson. Mayor so I have a question for staff at some point after this but I just want to know Willie did you know that you and I just agreed? We are in violent agreement on this one. Congratulations. Any other questions? Thank you. Thank you Ms. Hesteth. I apologize. Okay. All right. We're gonna Councilmember Briggs. I'd like to make a motion to approve. To repost? Madam City Attorney. Clear up this procedural faux pas on my part please. I think we're just reposting the vote that was earlier. We 're just reposting we don't have to go through the motion second. Okay. All right. We'll just repost the the votes that means we'll have to vote again I guess. Madam City Attorney is that correct? Okay. Do you need a motion in second Jennifer for the software to do that? Okay. Yes. Yep . Councilmember Briggs made a motion. We had a second by the mayor pro tem. Motion carries unanimously. Thank you. All right. We'll go on to agenda item for individual consideration from the consent agenda item P as in Paul. Do we have a... Mayor I think this is a City Attorney's item and this is an item that Council wanted to discuss and then perhaps postpone but I 'll defer to the City Attorney. Mayor and council this item before you is has had some discussion previously by the council. This the original ordinance was enacted in 2006. It does relate to confidential government information. The City Council had a discussion with regard to this ordinance on October the 20th and the Ethics Committee had some discussion with regard to the ordinance also as well in November. I believe it was November the 9th 2015. The ordinance before you tonight would amend that 2006 ordinance to remove the criminal penalties for violation of the ordinance. It also has added some language to the ordinance as it concerns confidential information. What we 've done is add some language that would make it confidential information to include information that is confidential under the Texas Public Information Act. Upon some input from a citizen who called to our attention a point that I looked at and I tend to agree with and that is that the original ordinance did not put a sharp enough edge on one of the provisions we have as I told you in our work session put another draft in front of you to sharpen that a little bit and I'll draw that to your attention at this point is section A or excuse me B2 and the rewrite that we've put in front of you tonight would provide that confidential government information is information from a meeting closed to the public pursuant to the Texas Open Meetings Act which is accepted by the Texas Open Meetings Act from the requirement that meetings of a governmental body be open to the public as well as all information held by the city that is not available to the public under the Texas Public Information Act. So with that revision and with the concurrence of the Eth ics Committee this ordinance is before you and recommended. We do have a card on this agenda item. Mr. Willie Hutsbeth you want to come down and speak on this ? My name is Willie Hutsbeth and I live at 623 Newton. Mayor and council members I want to speak to this closed session issue. I was on the school board for two terms. When I first got on the school board I looked at the policy of the closed session. Someone explained to me clearly the administration did and my team, the team of people that helped me get elected. We researched it and worked through it and it was turns out it was very simple. You do only those things in closed session that would hinder or hurt or harm or put the public's interest in a bad light. That's what you do in closed session. Example, if you're going to buy property you don't talk about the property that you want to acquire in open session. Then the person, people that are owns the property, own the property, would hear what your plans are and increase the price. You don't talk about personal things, people's, people you're thinking about firing and as questionable dealings with them. You don't talk about that. You do need expertise though at times. Nowhere in the provisions and nowhere is it allowed that I can remember having the entire staff in the closed session. We never, we never did that. We needed expertise. We have them come in, ask the question, they answer the question and they leave out of the room. Where did things change? Maybe I don't know. Where did things change where you got the whole staff or many people in a large number of people on staff in the meeting? That's a city council meeting without the public being there. I think it's illegal. I don't think you should be able to do that. So whatever the attorney now is saying to us and you, oh if we just do this one or two, these one or two little things, then it's okay. We can continue having public meetings in private. Wasn't intended for that. That's for you all to talk about, city council members, not staff and the attorney. We didn't even let the attorney stay in there with us. We called the attorney in when we needed expertise legally and then he went back out. Where did it change the way you can have everybody in the room talking about these things? Well my team that I have now, which is me and one other guy, we're going to look into this and see what what can be done. Let's get some legal precedents as to what you can do in closed session because what's happening is you're talking among yourselves and then you're deciding what the business of this seat is supposed to be about and that's illegal, I think, but I'll just check with my team and then we'll figure it out. Any questions? Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions for staff on this issue or discussion among council members? Councilmember Roden. I have a couple questions of the city attorney, if I might. Does this ordinance, just so the public here is not confused based on those last comments, does this ordinance have anything to do with what is an allowed closed meeting or who's allowed in those closed meetings? This ordinance has to do with confidential information and what will be held be allowed to be held in confidence. I think what the last speaker was talking was speaking to were provisions of the Open Meetings Act rather than this particular ordinance. Which is Texas law. Correct. My question is, and there's been some discussion the last time this was before us and you tell me , you tell me to the extent you feel comfortable answering this in an open session, but which I think you can, the question as to whether or not we repeal this entirely or we make these two fixes that have come out of the Ethics Committee during our last conversation. The last Monday we had a pretty long conversation on the Texas state reigning statutes as it relates to ethics for public officials, city government officials, including staff. If this were to be repealed as a city ordinance, what state statutes would still be holding on to the types of things that the spirit of this was hoping to to regulate? There's predominantly one statute that comes to mind upon your question and that is misuse of official information, which I think is that related to the council at the last meeting that is a third-degree felony. That particular criminal statute however has to do with the situation where a member might take official information and use it for personal gain or for purposes of fraud and then benefit in some form or fashion and that's really the the state criminal law as it concerns misuse of official information. This particular ordinance is not really I don't think intended to address that particular situation where there is personal benefit but rather to try to protect information that is confidential per the ordinance in order to assure that the city is able to operate most efficiently and in a fashion that preserves the city's public fisc. Thank you. Councilmember Wasney. So some background for our citizens. In 2006 the City Council passed an ordinance that basically made it a criminal offense that if a member of City Council talked about anything that went on in closed session it was a criminal offense. Well that was 2006. Now the city government functioned just fine up until 2006 and so along came that ordinance. Now I didn't agree with the ordinance and so you know I'm one of the troublemakers here trying to question it because I do consider it a violation of the First Amendment for council members to be hogtied but it's the tip of the iceberg that we're looking at to my citizens. It's a tip of the iceberg of a much bigger question and Willie Huxbeth touched on it tonight and it's the issue of closed sessions and doing business, your business, behind closed doors. So I think it brings up the question of transparency and open government that we as a city need to have. Not just the City Council but we as a city need to have. So this is just one small part, one small piece. So the ordinance was modified this afternoon and because I'm uncomfortable with bringing forward ordinances to our citizens before they've had an opportunity to even read what's in them, I would like to postpone this until January so that citizens have an opportunity when it's posted again to read the new ordinance to see what it is that we are voting on. Thank you. Any other questions? Well I have a comment and these are just my thoughts on this. I appreciate those comments. As I read the ordinance and as I read the original intent of even bringing this back up based upon this issue of First Amendment rights, as I even read the modification, I guess what I'm saying, the chair can't make a motion, all right? So I would certainly entertain. I don't have a problem with repe aling this ordinance as it is because I'm not sure that the modification that's going to be proffered will get us around that necessarily and it was going well before 2006. I'm not aware of any problems that any council members have had in the past where they've been called into question about what they disclosed or did not disclose and certainly state law being to the extent of a third degree felony based upon certain types of disclosures is a lot more than what the city could do with our limited enforcement powers which is basically a $ 500 fine. So Councilmember Rodin. On that I'd move repeal of this ordinance. Councilmember Johnson. Second. Madam City Attorney. Just to be consistent with the way we have posted this and that is to amend the ordinance, would you consider making the motion to amend it to repeal it? I move to amend to repeal the ordinance. Thank you sir. I second to amend to repeal. We have a motion and a second. Let's vote on the board please. Oh we got Councilmember Briggs. Is that is that within the posting? Is this proper and this okay? Because this is familiar and although I'm for repealing this ordinance I just want to make sure that this is... Right it's my it's my opinion that this has been posted. The public clearly understands that we're going to consider 2-30 tonight. We have posted it to amend and so if you amend it to repeal it I think it's well within the posting. Councilmember Hawkins. Just since there's a little confusion, Madam City Attorney would you reread it just one more time before we vote on it ? Would that be okay? Reread the caption? Well just the the section that was changed, the amended section right? Isn't that just B? Yes sir. It was a 2-30 it was B2 and that's the section that I suggested that if you wanted to act on it tonight you might want to consider putting that sharper edge on. I do believe though the motion that's been made is to amend this ordinance to completely repeal it, i.e. do away with the ordinance and take it off the books. So this is not the amendment that you were looking at earlier. It's an amendment to repeal. Gotcha, thank you. Mayor Pro Tem. So a question for our attorney. What does this mean in terms of what we rely on now to govern our actions in terms of our ethical conduct regarding privileged information, confidential information about the sale of property, about legal negotiations, about all of those things that that that had been in the past. What are we relying on it then? Well if it doesn't fit within the criminal provision, i.e. the misuse of official information, you would first look back to your ethics resolution which is still on the books. I don't believe there's anything in the city charter with regard to this and so you're going to be in a position then of acting in the interest of the city because you are fiduciaries and it's the obligation of all of us to do so. So that's really where you are. And this is then rel iance on state law? Well to the extent the state law would have application. Does it have application? The state law that I mentioned earlier which would be the misuse of the official information but for the purposes of committing fraud or for advancing personal interests would have application. So what would what would the condition be? What would the situation be if someone on council revealed information and it ended up as Mr. Hedspeth was talking about somebody talked to somebody about a land deal and it ended up being discovered that that revealing of that information cost the city a significant amount of extra money in the purchase of that property. Well I think we've completely circled back to the original reason which I believe was on the table when this ordinance was passed in 2006. I think that was originally in my opinion the concern of the council when they put this 2006 ordinance in play and that is that there are circumstances where the interests of the city can be harmed i.e. the purchase of real estate or perhaps some other matters as well. So I believe the council at that point in time was concerned about the leaking of confidential information hence the enactment of this original statute. And there there's if a if a person were to do the scenario that I described would there be a state law that would govern that person's behavior that legal actions could be taken because of the failure to to follow their fiduciary responsibilities to the city to protect the city's interest. It's an interesting question and one about which we've had quite a bit of discussion in our office and frankly I think a lot of municipal attorneys ponder this and try to think through it. I'm not aware of a criminal type law which would have application in your hypothetical. There could be possibly a situation where in analogizing to a situation where corporate officers breach fiduciary off duties to a corporation potentially a civil action could could be on the table. I've never seen one in the state of Texas but I can analogize at least to some cases and some lines of authority along those lines i.e. we have a duty and a responsibility to this municipal corporation to act in her best interest when we fail to do so if we fail to do so potentially civil action as a result against an individual officer. This is an interesting situation. Councilmember Wasney. Well interesting that the conversation has taken this turn because at the Monday meeting where we spent an hour and a half talking about ethics ordinance I watched a slideshow from legal that went page after page after page that showed that state law was was entirely adequate to cover all of these issues and so I just want to put that on the table because this is all intertwined and we did watch slide after slide after slide of how state law puts down the laws that govern this City Council. Any other questions or comments? Councilmember I'm sorry Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. Well I agree with your observation that that there were a lot of slides that that that went over where state law applies and as I recall in our conversation also what we talked about was we needed there was a possibility of meeting local ordinances where the bar was too low where there was a gap where there was maybe a something that that that the state law did not fill in and and and I guess my assumption was on the on this rule was that this local ordinance had been put into place because there seemed to be a gap. Now you know I I have trouble I'm not I'm not a an attorney and I'm not certainly a constitutional law attorney so I have trouble understanding how the the current or the revised section 2-30 is a violation of my constitutional rights because I have some fiduciary responsibilities to keep my mouth shut when it harms the city. So I mean I'm in I see arguments on both sides of this I'm not sure if I'm ready to vote either way so I'm just I 'm just sharing we're we've gone to a different direction than what we had originally posted and I think it's I agree that it's legal to do that I'm just trying to work through in my own mind what I need to do here. Council member Johnson. Thank you mayor. So I just find it interesting that there are so many opportunities that if there is a council member or a citizen or a staff member who believes that someone has violated ethics period whether they understand the state law understand the local ordinance there are so many options to go and say I have a complaint I have a complaint I believe this person has done something unethical and I am the opinion whether it be city attorney the the attorney general I mean there are multiple opportunities to go make a complaint but there haven't been any so and and I just find it odd so what we're voting on and I'm fine with it I'm fine with making our current ordinance weaker or a limit all that's what we're doing tonight we're voting to weaken our ordinance if there's been all kinds of conversation about how we need stronger ordinance I'm fine with it I'm fine with repealing it I'm fine with modifying it because at the end of the day either someone is going to keep confidential information confidential or they're not and once they once they blab it don't keep their mouth shut and it harms the city whether there's a criminal penalty or a you know the max the city can oppose is a what a class C misdemeanor $500 or a state penalty the damage is done at that point right and then what you would hope is that the citizens would would not vote them in again so to me we were spending a lot of time talking about ethics ordinances yet I'm not aware of one thing that has been brought forth as an official complaint saying I believe this person did this and I want to have it investigated and and thought through so I'm fine with it doesn't matter to me repeal it modify it we can spend time talking about another one but at the end of the day if somebody doesn't do the right thing they should be called out for it councilmember breaks I just wanted to say that but the ordinance that I'm looking at now is pretty much the stuff that I learned at the TML conference so it's really not anything extra the thing that we took out was the illegal part which added a criminal offense to it and I wanted to talk to you mayor pro tem I think that we can discuss your concerns because I understand them and I hear them in the ethics ordinance discussion that we have January 12th and it may be a way to incorporate some of the unsettled feelings you have about repealing this into a new ordinance that that we're gonna discuss okay and and councilman was now certainly understand what you're saying I guess for me the timeline was when we discussed this ordinance three two or three or four weeks ago there seemed to be during that time some desire to repeal it all together and so we sent it to the ethics committee to sort of look at that and then we had the discussion about the state laws and then the new ordinance came to us and my understanding was that the ethics committee had looked at the revisions and that they were okay with that so I think it might have been just a timing issue I'm not sure as far as when when it was sent down to the ethics committee and what was brought back and then the slideshow of the so I guess that's was my desire to think about the repeal was because there had been some discussion of that in the very beginning before we did any of this and then as I saw the modifications and then as I hear certainly from some of the citizens about this issue and there are there are going to be subsequent discussions about this and quite frankly we didn't have it until 2006 and nobody can really figure out why it was passed then so that was really my motivation and my mindset in in the comments that I made earlier any other discussion on this matter okay we have a motion and a second and I don't think we need to repeat unless we need to repeat the motion we've got a motion a second let's vote on the board please a motion carries 7-0 we'll now move on to our agenda items for an individual consideration I believe agenda item 5a has been pulled it's no longer it's no longer on the agenda is that correct mr. city manager all right then we'll go on to agenda item 5b which is consider adoption of an ordinance revoking or modifying a specific use permit dated August 5th 2014 allowing a record service an impound lot on property located in the employment center zoning and land use district on approximately 1.3 acres mr. city manager sorry thank you I'd like to call Amy Bissett if she would present this item for your consideration and I believe you have two cards I do have two cards yes thank you mayor and city council members the item that you 're considering tonight is revoking or modifying a specific use permit which is dated August 5th 2014 which allows for a record service an imp ound lot and as you will recall when this when this SUP was approved in 2014 it was approved with conditions including the installation of best management practices for stormwater management in the event that contamination was found and also an 8 foot screening fence around the perimeter of the project and a type B buffer around the perimeter of the project on November 17th you held a public hearing to consider revoking the specific use permit at that time because the conditions had not been met to date and on that date you gave the property owner until December 15th which is today to come into compliance I'm going to present some information to you but I do want to start by saying that staff believes that that acres towing has met the intent of the ordinance and come into compliance with these conditions acres towing is located on Dallas Drive it is zoned employment center industrial which does require an SUP in order to operate a record service to give you a little bit of background on November 17th of this year and you did give the property owner until today to come into compliance with conditions on November 19th actually it was the very end of the day on the on November 18th so the very next day they came in with an application for the installation of BMPs we worked with them to bring that application into compliance with what the city needed to see and on December 2nd the permit was issued December 11th and the inspection was conducted and the permit was finaled related to the other condition which was and the installation of the fence and buffer they also came in the day after the council meeting to submit an amended application for a fence permit they'd already come in originally for a fence permit and we worked with them to bring that application into compliance with what the city needed to see on November 23rd several staff members myself included went out to acres to tour the property and to discuss the conditions and at that time we determined that there were some some provisions in the conditions of the SUP that were not reasonable for the acres to be able to comply with specifically the perimeter on the south and east side has a drainage easement and we wouldn't it would not be advisable for them to plant a landscape buffer in the drainage easement and the north and west sides of the perimeter have existing buildings that would prevent them being able to put the landscape buffer in there and so what we what we did on site was essentially problem-solve with them to determine where we thought the best location for the fence would be and where we thought we could apply a landscape buffer which would be along Dallas Drive where which is the area that would be visible to the public and how to deal with a wrought-iron gate that they have along the front of the property our advice to them was that they screen that with an opaque screening so that the intent of the ordinance would be met and they would have a screening all the way around the property staff does recommend recommend approval of modifying the specific use permit with new conditions these new conditions really speak to the the real world on the ground conditions that we found and how to how they can comply with the intent of the ordinance and they also speak to ensuring that that compliance remains through the life of this specific use permit so I will summarize the conditions quickly for you the first condition that we recommend is that the site plan guides the operation and the use of the property the site plan shows the location of the fence and it shows the landscape buffer so they would have to remain in compliance with that site plan the second condition is that the BMPs must be maintained in accordance with the Denton Development Code and the storm water management plan submitted to the city and that any amendments must be approved by the city the third condition is that the BMPs shall at all times meet the specifications of the storm water management plan which they submitted and were approved by the city the fourth condition is that they must maintain the BMPs at all times and perform self inspections per the storm water management plan and document the results of those inspections the fifth condition that we recommend is that they make all of those records available to the city upon request the sixth condition is that the city has the right to inspect periodically for compliance with these conditions the seventh condition is that if a violation is found the city would issue a notice of correction and give a time frame in order to correct and the it in the event that they failed to cure the violation that that would be a cause for revoking the SUP and finally that the fence remain and as is shown in the site plan and as is constructed today that wasn't finally we have one more but the type B buffer also remain and as showed in the site plan and that it would be maintained irrigated and kept alive at all times and that the owner shall comply with all local state and federal law concerning the property lastly the condition that the SUP does not run with the land but runs with the property owner and would expire at the time that acres toeing closed that is all I have I'll take questions any questions before we have we have a few cards that want wish to speak councilmember Johnson Amy you said it runs with the land that it would not run with the land that would be the last condition that we would put on there only runs with that current business that's correct the way that the condition reads is that it's somebody that is it can only be assigned into individuals who are related to the owner and otherwise the SUP would be void and revoked at the time that the business closed okay thank you any other questions before public comment seeing none okay thank you Stan thank you Amy first speaker will be mr. Willie Hutzbeth my name is Willie Hutzbeth 116 23 Newton mayor and council members I've known mr. acres who owns this property for over 30 years he won't come down here and talk he's right up there he won't come down here he's nervous scared code enforcement and the other people mr. manager have just almost destroyed this man let me tell you from from a standpoint from what how what I know that went on the way the issue was presented you're protecting the environment you're you're making sure that things are put where they're supposed to be what they're not telling you is he's been singled out two businesses to the west of him have equal problems with the oil and the drainage - right across the street there are several others he won't come down I guarantee you I'd be down here $30,000 the man has had to spend spend he was cited for whatever this is and why or whatever they did with no warning he's been there over 30 years and all of a sudden somebody said you need to do this and do that to this property and when he tried to comply with the fence ordinance as he told me they gave him it was doing Thanksgiving and they told him Monday if you don't get this done I forgot what the threat was I wish he would just come down here and just stand with me just stand with me and look at you you've almost destroyed this man he's been over 30 years I said you you're not gonna he said well what good will he do I'm talking to them and I noticed in some of the specifics you said after his family's gone and he's gone then it reverts back my goodness how do you even live with yourselves when you do those kinds of things all of that years he's put into that place now he can't even sell it get what you get his return on it and the smug person presenting the argument is as though they did something that was good for the city well if it is you need to go back out there and check take and do and see what that paint company is doing the car dealership right next to the paint company is doing if it's if something's bad for the environment then all of them need to be upgraded and done right well Joe I wish you well brother I wish you would come down here and I'll stand beside you to talk about what are you feeling what they've done we've got a question for you mr. husband councilmember breaks it's about something that he said not directly to him okay all right sure all right we've got a couple more speak any any questions for mr. husband from council okay thank you we've got a couple more cards so councilmember Briggs are you gonna be able to hold that until after okay okay thank you the next speaker will be item Martinez please state your name and address and your time will begin oh no at the mic I'm sorry I apologize you're so anxious to get up here and talk to us yes I am excited today my name is item Martinez and I live at 9830 angel bin and the acres are my parents and I wanted to let you guys know that mission accomplished and it's been quite the learning experience I know so much now that I did not know before BMPs flow through rates sediment control erosion control you name it silt socks I mean the amount of knowledge that I've gained is just huge and I think it's great I think it's a good thing you know I see where some people are upset but I also see the good in all this change needed to be made in there we were service the fellow talking earlier about being accountable being held accountable and doing things extra don't just do what's you know the minimum we've done that we're moving a little bit beyond what's being asked of us and we're looking into bi oremediation microbial remediation so that the contaminants that are there one of you guys had mentioned that this just controls the silt socks just control the pollution like from the stormwater runoff but what about the stuff that's already there well we looked into by over and micro micro remediation so we've got them and we're gonna activate these little critters and turn loose and let them do their job not only that we're looking into doing more landscaping we're on a roll you know we started y'all gave us a jump start it looks great the place looks great it needed to be cleaned up and I think it looks wonderful I wish you guys would come out and see we've got a couple of questions or comments councilmember Hawkins I didn't really know how to form this in a question but just I'm really glad that acres gets to still be around here in Dent on so did you know that we're excited to vote on this so anyway or that putting words in front of everybody's anyway but I'm very happy for you thank you yeah it's been a really big huge learning experience for all of us and I think we 've taken I learned a lot much more than just you know cleaning up the place we learned more about ourselves and in the community and just you know the industry that we in it is up to us this is the industry that we're going to be in we need to do our part to protect and make sure that not only are ourselves you know at risk but you know people around us the community and the water as well that's the last thing acres wants to do is hurt anybody and so I think it's all been an eye-opener and a very great learning experience and I know the outcome has been is well worth it so and we have a few more comments councilmember Briggs did you know that I came by yes I did thank you it looks really good yeah we worked really hard so yeah thank you thank you council member Johnson thank you mayor well most people wouldn't have come down here and said that I think it's incredibly first-class of you because you guys did go through a hard time and very much through the wringer and so did you know that I think it's awesome that you're so classy as to come down and make those those statements to us I really do appreciate it thank you mayor pro tem I had my doubts a month ago I'm so glad I was wrong I'm so proud of what you all done I drove by also looks great thank you very much for the comments thank you for for the work that you're doing I know I know it was an expense I know it was a cost but but I think it's gonna be well worth it thank you absolutely yeah it already he already is yeah and and the comment I have is as you were talking I thought oh my heavens this is dr. banks number two up here I mean you really and I really do appreciate you know you've really what y'all did and the commitment that you made and I'm glad that we recognize that you needed that time and you need that opportunity so I really do appreciate appreciate what you've done and come down here and sharing sharing with us the place looks great and I'm really excited for it so yeah all right thank you any other questions or comments for for Ida we have one more card wishing to speak thank you very much Gloria acres if you'll come down and states your name and address and your time will begin my name is Gloria acres and I live at 9830 Angel Bend and I worked my fanny off at seven fifteen dollars drive I just wanted to let y' all know that in thirty days we accomplished we hadn't accomplished in four years and I don't know what y'all were doing Thanksgiving Day but we were in Dallas with two flat beds coming in loaded with vents so that was our Thanksgiving I don't know what y'all were doing the lack the next three days while it was raining but we were out there taking all the shrubbery off the fence in the rain I don't know what y'all were doing every night but my daughter was at the computer every night digging up all the information she could and I have here something to present to y'all oh if you can yeah yes and she'll put yeah thank you very much and to see what she has accomplished and to thank y'all for everything that y'all have done because if it weren't for y'all we wouldn't be where we're at and I know that the permit is only good as long as we're there but maybe somebody else will buy the property later on and maybe they'll turn it into something else meanwhile I would like to say thank you you're welcome yes any questions for Mrs. acres comments thank you very much thank you very much okay those are all the cards that we have any questions Councilmember Briggs you had a question I think or a comment my mind was just about the SUP that it goes it stays with with the person not the property so I was just kind of curious when mr. Husband said that he couldn't sell his business but if he did could that business owner apply for a new SUP is that how that works so the business could I'm just curious how how that would work that might be another topic discussed later no I think it's appropriate an appropriate question I believe the new business owner could apply for a specific use permit if they wanted to carry that okay for that business okay any other questions oh I don't I don't have a card on you and this is an item for individual consideration so we're good yeah we're counsel okay with that sure coming down speak yeah okay sure my name is Greg Edwards I'm civil engineer on the project Mr. Edwards I'm sorry cuz mr. what's your address so your time I get words I'm at 1621 Amanda Court Ponder Texas is our business address I'm the civil engineer on the project I really don't know that the acres have the experience with the city staff but basically I really want to express my appreciation to the staff because I know Karl Parton Ron Mangita Amy took a very personal interest in getting this thing done and getting us answers and you know if if we hadn't gotten those answers like they wouldn't have had the opportunity to be there in the rain over Thanksgiving saving their business so I know they worked their rear ends off but yeah I did want to let you know that your staff came through for you on this one as well thank you thank you any more questions for staff nope councilmember Hawkins all right make sure that I word this correctly I move a denial of an ordinance revoking or modifying the special specific use permit do I not read it like that just may I make a suggestion sure with my double negative it would be a motion to modify the specific use permit with the conditions as presented by all right I make a motion to modify this this but specific use permit with the 11 conditions that work yes b umbled through that apologize councilmember Briggs I will second we have a motion and a second let's vote on the board please motion carries unanimously we will now move on to our portion of the public hearing agenda item 6a hold a public hearing consider adoption of an ordinance of the city of Dent Texas to consider amending permit uses in sub chapter 35 5 the Dent Development Code we will now open the public hearing pursuant to our rules thank you mr. mayor and I'd like to call on Amy Biss ett our director of development services to present this first public hearing tonight thank you Amy thank you mayor and council members tonight what you're considering is an ordinance that essentially changes the definition of the use that's currently defined as semi public halls clubs and lodges would change to assembly halls clubs and lodges in the list of zoning uses in the DDC and this is a staff initiated zoning change and it's coming on the heels of having several recent proposals to develop facilities to accommodate private functions in non-commercial areas recent proposals that include a facility for quince and yaris a farm with an associated wedding venue and a win ery with an associated wedding venue currently the DDC the DDC does not have a use to accurately describe this activity that our staff took it upon themselves to analyze the uses that we do have in the DDC and try to determine what the best fit is for this type of use and they took a look at previous codes within the city of Denton and determined that at one time we had a use that was called a country club use that was very similar which was permitted in residential zoning districts within SUP and it had a lot of similar a lot of similar characteristics to these types of uses that we're beginning to see in Denton but that use is no longer in the DDC so they began exploring options for how we can best create a use the the the use that that they have that they are proposing today or that we're proposing today is an assembly hall and it could include private events such as weddings meetings and banqu ets it would often include catering alcohol sales and live or recorded entertainment and when considering how to accommodate the specific use we determined that revising the definition of an existing use would be an appropriate way to to approach it and currently semi-public halls clubs and lodges are defined as a structure or facility owned or operated for special educational recreational purposes we felt like the use of assembly hall met that definition however the use is only today allowed for nonprofit organizations and so it limits the use the proposal is to eliminate the word semi-public and replace it with assembly and then eliminate the portion of the use that narrows the use only to nonprofit users so the proposed revised use and definition would be assembly halls clubs or lodges a structure facility owned or operated for special educational or recreational purposes we propose no change in the zoning districts where this this use is currently permitted and it is permitted by right through the DDC today in all commercial zoning districts in our rural zoning districts it is not allowed or not permitted in our residential rural districts but it is allowed in rural commercial districts and so we would propose no change there in our residential districts current our current use of semi-public halls clubs and lodges is allowed but it's only allowed with a specific use permit so we would propose no change in that and the the so essentially what what we're talking about here is is not a change to the impact of the use itself the use would not change it would just be who the users are who would be allowed to and classify themselves under this specific use category in order to receive a specific use permit and it's a use that's not automatically permitted by right and but it can be permitted with it within a zoning district if it meets specific conditions and I do have the approval criteria here for you if you like for me to walk through those and so it is very specific criteria and it has to meet each of the criteria presented and then there are a variety of conditions that can be placed on a specific use permit as well so in order for an assembly hall club or lodge to get a specific use permit in a residential zoning district and it would have to be in conformance with all standards within the zoning district in which the use is proposed and in conformance with the Denton plan it would also only be issued if all of the following conditions have been met that the use will be compatible with and not injurious to the use and enjoyment of the other property that the establishment of the specific use would not impede the normal and orderly development and improvement of the surrounding vacant lots that adequate provision would be made for public utilities that the design location and arrangement of all driveways and parking spaces would be would provide for safe and convenient movement that adequate nuisance prevent provision measures would be in place that directional lighting would be provided so as not to disturb or adversely affect the neighboring properties there's sufficient landscaping and screening to ensure harmony and compatibility that adequate capacity of infrastructure can and will be provided to and through the subject property it's compatible with and will not have an adverse impact on the surrounding area in evaluating the effect of the proposed use the following factors will be taken into consideration similarity in scale bulk and coverage generation generation of traffic and effects on surrounding streets architectural compatibility and air quality generation of noise light and glare the development of adjacent properties as envisioned in the dent plan and any other factors found to be relevant to satisfy the requirements of this chapter this specific use permit is a tool in which you can you can apply a variety of different conditions on the use including regulating and limiting the use regulating setbacks and spacing fences and walls requirement to submit a development plan limiting the magnitude of traffic generated regulation of points of vehicular and pedestrian ingress and egress regulation of signs building materials textures colors architectural features landscaping including screening and buffering noise vibration dust od ors or similar nuisances regulation of hours of operations and conduct of activities in the regulation of the period of time with which the proposed use can be developed regulation of the duration of use regulation of any environmentally sensitive areas regulation of any site development condition and any other conditions which will make possible the development of the city in an orderly and efficient manner we had some concerns from residents at the Planning and Zoning Commission regarding regarding this use in a residential area and so we pulled a couple of examples for you to take a look at as very similar operations as assembly halls in those particular cases they were facilitated through a plan development which is another tool to be able to allow for that but ropes and ranch is an example and here's an aerial view of the clubhouse it's 17,000 square feet with a 400 foot a 400 seat ballroom with a stage the multi-purpose activity room catering kitchen and group meeting rooms here's a second example at Lantana with a 20,000 square foot clubhouse that can see 250 post wedding special events golf tournaments conferences and catering assembly halls can coexist with residential development but they must be done thoughtfully and sensitively that is why the SUP is a critical component to this and since the city of Denton does not have planned developments as a tool to be able to facilitate this moving forward and this is a this is a way to create a use to be able to facilitate this type of development which creates placemaking in our community and allows for a new economic activity that we're seeing with this interest in developing this type of use the recommendation of the Planning's and Zoning Commission is recommending approval as staff is also recommending approval and with that I will take any questions okay we've got some quite and this is we are in an open public hearing so we've got these questions are for staff I present councilmember Ruggent thank you mayor thank you Amy for this presentation what what is the reasoning for not allowing it in RD 5 residential the only reasoning is that we're recommending that the use schedule stay the same as it is currently in the DDC so we're not recommending any changes to where it's allowed or where it 's not allowed I mean I only say that because as I visited similar type facilities and other locations there seems to be almost a decidedly rural element to it a lot of land a lot of place out there versus NR 6 neighborhoods right where it's it's certainly allowed with an SUP and so and I've got a couple other questions to ask our attorney as it relates to SUP but I don't know to me as we think about this sort of development which I think is certainly encouraged for the city and there's certainly a place for it I think we just have to ask ourselves where would we want to encourage them to go and I and I see RD 5 and to me that seems like a likely candidate where something like this might go where there's great landscape great views of the sunset things like that so I don't know if anyone else has thoughts on that I'm sure we're gonna get some more public feedback before we can make that decision thanks thank you councilmember Riggs yeah I'm kind of feeling the same way and a little uncomfortable about it going into in neighborhoods the the pictures you showed were larger master plan communities where there's a large space and I'm trying to figure out how something like this would fit into my neighborhood an older established neighborhood with smaller lots and that's concerning one of the requirements of a specific use permit in order for it to be granted is it must be compatible with the scale of the neighborhood that it's going into and so in order for a development that would fall into this category to go into your neighborhood I would have to stand up here and justify why it was compatible with your neighborhood first and then you all would be choosing whether to grant that specific use permit on a case-by-case basis so if it doesn't fit within your neighborhood you would not grant that the specific use permit councilmember Rode I guess that's my question about an SUP that I've always understood those criteria that you lied out as possible reasons for us to deny an SUP not criterion that has to be met in order to be approved I hope that makes sense the distinction between the two of those things such that if it does technically or by somebody's standard meet those criteria because some of those standards are more ambiguous than others I've always been a bit more comfortable with requiring a zoning change up to an appropriate zoning category rather than an SUP simply because the feel of people coming to discuss an SUP feels like they're coming to have the opportunity for the council to say no to it like a zoning change that's always the concern with SUP and I know there's some legal hang-ups as to when we can deny an SUP so I guess I'll turn to our city attorney to reflect on some of those concerns right and thank you for the earlier heads-up during the work session an applicant is presumably entitled to the permit the specific use permit under the conditions that the council deems appropriate in the particular neighborhood for that use so there's really a presumption that the applicant will get the permit and then the council would would consider what kind of mitigating conditions the council deems appropriate in order to allow the use to go forward and it would really be in a circumstance where the council could not determine that there were adequate conditions to allow the use to go forward where you might be denying that specific use permit so if that makes sense that's that's how the the legal team looks at these specific use permits it may be late and it's not late but it's gonna get late I 'm not sure you said there was a presumption that the council must approve an SUP and that so I'm trying to understand this in my simple mind so if there 's a set of approval criteria and the council determines in its discretion that some of those approval criteria have not been met then they can deny an SUP is that correct let me try let me try explaining that again I use the word presumption to try to make it understandable but if you look at this use table here the use is allowed in that area under conditions if there if you cannot articulate conditions or impose conditions such that the the use would be not so disruptive in a neighborhood that you wouldn't want it to go forward then you might deny it but again the use is presumed to be allowed that's that's what a specific use permit is the use is allowed under the conditions applied by council I got you okay councilmember Johnson we've had an awful lot of discussion over change of a word that's really kind of what we're doing right we're changing whether or not this is allowed in a neighborhood it is allowed in a neighborhood today with an SUP I know that 's what I'm getting at so the I would assume given that we're talking about in our we're talking about residential districts if someone is this coming up because master plan communities we used to have PDs and with PDs made all sense in the world because here's what I'm going to build and everything and there's identified and so you could have your community building next to your pool in the middle of your neighborhood regardless of what size it was because it was a PD I don't know what the criteria are for something to apply for to comply with master plan community definition but it seems like what we're doing here is simply redefining from a hyphenated word to a single word to allow for a public gathering place within a neighborhood so I guess what I'm getting at it I don't think it logical that somebody is going to go into an older existing neighborhood by four or five lots scrape it and build a community building because there's no way to make money so it seems like this is really what we 're talking about here somebody's going to go build a new neighborhood but it's not a master plan community maybe it's only a hundred houses is that right is that why we're doing this is clarifying the semi public clarifying this is because we have development activity today and then people who are interested in developing projects like this but they are the ones that we've seen come in today are more rural in nature right those are the wedding venues wedding venues with a winery or with a farm and they're so what we're seeing is a new type of economic activity in Denton and it is but it is a for- profit activity but it's on the flip side it's also a place making activity and the kind of activity that we want to facilitate here but we just don't have a use definition for it we we already allow this activity in neighborhoods with an SUP it's just who is allowed to use that use so is it a non-profit or is it a for-profit that's the only change that's being okay so well it seems like it I'll just comment it seems to me like based on your answer because I definitely want to address what Councilmember Road was saying those venues wineries etc probably aren't going to fall in these classes but we still probably have to address it in these classes because of the the definition error right process when we put it in the DDC we have to determine in every zoning district where it's allowed and where it's not allowed we're not proposing any changes to that today but the ones that we've seen the activity that we've seen are not in neighborhoods that's correct got it thank you okay we've got three speakers queued up so these are for staff y'all want to go ahead okay all right okay so if we do okay the amendment to the Denton Development Code they still have to come get it an SUP through the public hearing process and can when is a supermajority forced again like a 6-1 vote when enough of the neighborhood is against it am I understanding that correctly there's a percentage in public hearings a percentage of the property owners within 200 feet I believe it's 40% or more requires a supermajority vote so if an applicant were coming here I'm sorry it's 20% much lower thank you okay so if an applicant were coming here to try to get an SUP and there was 20% or more against the project within that 200 feet in order to get that SUP granted you need a 6-1 vote correct okay thank you Councilmember Rodin I just want to thank this through a little bit more with you Amy because I agree I'm sure the the current desired proposals for this aren't interested in coming into Keely's neighborhood or NR6 or anything that's existing I guess the key distinction as I understand it is this nonprofit versus profit and that's to me that's that that's huge because if I think about our examples of things like this in town that are nonprofit take take over by Quaker Town Park that women's center women's club a good example of something that's an assembly hall meeting space nonprofit very low impact and it is technically kind of in a neighborhood it's on city property so it's a little bit different but as it relates to and here I 'll getting to a question as it relates to the different types of neighborhoods we have particularly in the core in this compatibility question so in Keely's neighborhood it would it wouldn't make a lot of sense for some to buy up six tracks and then build this that could be clearly incompat ible but you do have neighborhoods so I'm thinking of to say the West Oak historic district that is part a ton of great single-family homes and then because of the stress over time there's some part very large-scale apartment complexes somebody could make the case of buying up six single-family lots tearing homes down to put up a large event center because they like this location to the university for instance for a for-profit it's that sort of compound compatibility issue and simply because now when you change to the for-profit essentially it's an allowance for commercial it's commercial development in a very real sense of the term in those sorts of neighborhoods so I don't know as the plan as someone who's thought through this why shouldn't I be concerned with that sort of compatibility issue I think the requirement of the specific use permit allows every opportunity for you all to evaluate the compatibility with any neighborhood that is the first criteria in fact that has to be met that it has to be compatible with and not injurious to the use and enjoyment of other property nor significantly diminish or impair property values within the vicinity and so I think that if they if that criteria is not met then you have justification to deny a specific use permit okay I'll save some more questions to after we go from folks thank you okay any other quick questions for staff all right we'll go ahead and go on to and this is a public hearing so we've got three cards but being a public hearing you don't have to have a card to speak Lucas Lucas Hall who come down state your name and address your time will begin good evening council ladies and gentlemen of the council my name is Lucas Hall my last name is H O L L it's 815 Crest Oak placed and that's 76209 and I'm here to ask you to reject this proposal I realized that the planning zoning Commission gave their approval but I I echo actually well I don't know I wrote this down a few days ago so maybe he's echoing me but I share some of the concerns that Councilman Rodin has voiced here primarily we're talking about a very small handful of applicants who want to build these actually very interesting sounding of events venues of wine and wedding banquet hall and wedding farm and wedding but these are all large-scale gathering commercial uses and if council adopts the proposal then upon application that essentially gives is creating the power of City Council to lot by lot change a neighborhood residential zone lot into a commercial use lot and that in my opinion for the benefit of a very small number of applicants to affect the entire city that's poor policy making and that's a general general objection I would like everyone in the audience to think about this what if down the block us a block or two down the street you find out that there's an application suddenly for a live music venue with live with the alcohol consumption because staff staff in their original report to planning and zoning said this is envisioning wedding receptions banquet halls live entertainment live music with on-site alcohol sales and consumption that's a party and I love going to those sorts of things I really do but I don't need them down the block down the street because changing even a single lot in a neighborhood zone fundamentally changes the lot and it fundamentally changes the immediate surrounding areas and the surrounding blocks whether or not they're within the 200 foot notice area and I I'd like to quickly distinguish that as mr. Johnson alluded to those the Lantana and Robeson ranch examples are inapplicable to our older established neighborhoods and then because those were developed areas that conceived of the central meeting place at the onset in many of Denton's established neighborhoods they were perhaps piecemeal built up by you know plaits in addition in addition to we had a nice looking little neighborhood and it's in so that brings me to the point that it's the city it's the onus is on the city to preserve the character and quality of our residential neighborhood zones these are our most restricted areas and it's for a purpose it's what makes us want to live in Denton it's what made me want to come back to Dent on and buy a house and invest in this city so in addition to the the concept of I don't feel like it's good policy making to it's poor policy making to open the door so to speak to the possibility of commercial events uses down the street down the block and I realized the special use permits are can be rigorous but as counsel said there's a presumption on the applicant that the applicant will get the permit unless they don't get it I'd also like to point out in a previous meeting of Councilman Gregory pointed out that it's very important any decision you make is in concert with our existing comprehensive plans so I went and reviewed residential land use in the 1999 plan and I looked at the 2015 plan and there's an overarching responsibility and overarching goal for neighborhood residential development to preserve the character of our established neighborhoods to do this would be fundamentally different and I would like to also remind you that sir you're that was your time so if you could wrap up real quickly because we don't have a question for you thank you very much yes bear in mind just in the background of all this is the legal concept of local government code chapter 211 I don't know the exact citation but that's any zoning it's a general principle any zoning regulation must be consistent with the comprehensive plan of a city and this is wholly inconsistent with a comprehensive plan okay for the city of Denton thank you we've got a question for you mayor protein I'm trying to play out some scenarios to see how this would impact and I'm trying to pick out what I'm hearing part of what you're saying is that you're more comfortable if that event was happening in a non non not-for-profit event if there was a wedding venue going on in a non-profit event but if it became a profit of profit oriented thing you would be less comfortable for without happening in a neighborhood exactly I've got a great example well let me give you an example okay I'm trying to I'm going through my my rolodex of churches in town that are neighborhoods and I 'm thinking of St. David's Episcopal Church is it on Hector or Hillcrest somewhere over in there but smack dab in the middle of the neighborhood now I'm not up on my Episcopalian theology but I know that they have weddings and and I'm not sure but what they might if they had a reception there at the church they might even allow wine to be drunk if it was a Methodist church that wouldn't happen that's my problem but but so so imagine that that it's a church that would allow a party with a band and alcohol consumption and you'd be okay with that in that neighborhood if it was a church but if for some reason that church was no longer operating as a church and it became and in a private venue bought it and they said hey this would be a great wedding chapel then you wouldn't be okay with that correct is that my understanding yes because the over because the primary goal of that building then would become to maximize the business use which would mean not a wedding reception every two or three weeks it would mean Thursday night Friday night a couple times Saturday a couple times Sunday that's how wedding venues will operate they do high volume I have worked at a wedding venue here one of the most popular ones in town although it's on TWS campus but it would be fundamentally different sir okay then you know a small neighborhood you've answered my question thank you very much thank you any other questions thank you very much appreciate that no sorry you're time you're topped up I'm really sorry thank you my alternative proposal all right the next speaker will be Willie Hutzpah oh okay the next speaker we'd be Jody I smart did I get that right I know it 's smart sorry about that I do that every time I apologize that's okay it's um J ody is smart I just wanted to say that I oppose this as well I I don't think it makes sense to change the dynamic of neighborhoods for community specifically I don't think it's very good as far as community building is concerned also I meant 819 Anna I saw your I saw your facial expression oh no I know but anyhow I I think that changing the dynamic of neighborhoods especially you know I would have some concern with my own neighborhood because it 's right as you know 819 Anna's less than a mile away from the square and so that's a very people enjoy that neighborhood a lot and that there are a lot of homes that are actually turning into restaurants which I'm actually I like the restaurants that are closer into the square but if I had a neighbor that suddenly wanted to change their home to a lounge I would not be okay with that I have a young daughter I'm trying to raise her in a community you know with a very I want it I want us to have more community based feel and I'm finding that a lot of decisions that are made here actually is changing that I dynamic of our entire town it's making it a little bit more transient less of a community at points and so I I don't think changing homes and neighborhoods to lounges or wedding reception places is going to create more stability I think it's actually going to pull the roots of the community up even further and when you pull the roots of the community up the soil is no longer fertile that's all any questions thank you very much I appreciate it thank you Jody all right we 've got we've got no more cards but this is a public hearing so anybody wishing to speak on this proposal come down state your name and address and your time will begin my name is Meredith Bowie I live at 809 Emory and I am finishing my friend's thoughts a proposed proposed compromise what are our alternatives this is a perfectly reasonable compromise available in City Council needs to know about it tonight maintain the semi public halls definition as currently written and continue to apply it to all in our zones neighborhoods would continue to enjoy high levels of preservation as envisioned by our 1999 and 2015 master plans no threat of commercial events venues being injected into established residential neighborhoods create a new assembly hall definition which would allow for wedding and events venues including on-site alcohol sales and consumption all the types of city all the types of uses city staff desires to capture in the definition allow I'm sorry apply this new assembly hall definition to mixed use downtown large lot agriculture commute commercial and industrial zones do not apply this new assembly hall definition to NR zones okay I'm sorry yes I'm sorry go ahead no no I apologize my mistake this proposed compromise would resolve this matter business owners who want to establish wedding banquet and party venues would be allowed to establish those venues wherever permitted residents of Denton neighborhoods would not have to worry about the large lot down the street being converted into an events venue I'm done now okay all right I'm sorry yes I'm sorry about that any questions for the speaker okay thank you very much I appreciate that this is a public hearing anybody else wishing to speak please come down state your name and address and your time will begin anybody wishing to speak I'm dr. Ryan cleft 2500 West Oak I just want to express agreement with what he said it's completely ridiculous to have basically it's a bar in a residential neighborhood like a church has a wedding that's fine it's a church you move in next door to church great but but to have like he said two weddings on Saturday maybe three on a Sunday you have children that live in that neighborhood you 're gonna have more drunk drivers you're gonna have noise it's outrageous that this is even being considered like who whose idea is this it's this City Council has has repeatedly as we've seen with with Buc-E's as we've seen with fracking as we've seen with other proposals repeatedly undermined the right of a residential community in a neighborhood to have basic peace and quiet like people do not want to live next to some hall where a bunch of strangers come in from out of town and they're loud and they're noisy and they're they're tram pling over stuff they're peeing on your rosebush they're leaving beer cups over here in your yard it's not funny it's not it's disgusting I wouldn't want to live next to that I wouldn't want to be a homeowner that watches my property value diminish because somebody decided you know what we can make a quick buck so I'm I'm not okay with it and I think he said it very well it's it's not acceptable we have a question I think from okay I'm sorry any other questions thank you very much for your time appreciate it this is a public hearing anybody else wishing to speak please come down anybody else wishing to speak do y'all want to comment before we close the public hearing or after okay all right yes yes yes absolutely anybody else wishing to speak seeing no movement I will close the public hearing councilmember Johnson hey mayor Amy can you come back up please sorry okay so it might to understand that is there a current application in place today by anyone in in an in our district or no no there's not triple check before I answered that question okay so but the only change we're making is we're making the change for to allow an RC right so is that what this says already five not allowed RC is permitted right so would that be any of the RC classifications correct so the only change that you're making is the definition of the use itself none of the zoning class if we 're not proposing at this time that it that it's that the allowability of it change in any zoning classification today it's allowed in all commercial zoning districts it's allowed in rural commercial and it's allowed in it with an SUP in neighborhood residential got it okay so we're really talking about the difference the defined difference between semi-public and assembly would you like me to display those again that the difference yeah because I guess I feel like we're kind of kind of gone off a bit on the and maybe I just misunderstood the definitions okay the current definition is semi-public halls clubs and lodges a structure or facility owned or operated for special educational or recreational purposes but not primarily for profit or to render a service that is customarily carried on for game the proposal is assembly halls clubs or lodges a structure facility owned or operated for special educational or recreational purposes got it so okay so lodges can sell alcohol that's allowed right yes there the activity is exactly the same definition that's what I'm saying it does I don't think I think I think some of the comments that I'm hearing are or assuming that different types of uses are allowed based on the previous definition versus the current or the proposed definition there is no change in the type of use being allowed okay okay thanks councilmember was me I think we need to be cautious when we're changing the Denton development code it's a foundation for our city and I just don't see that the rewards justify the risk in a in a change like this so I will be voting no councilmember well I guess on some level I'm sorry for stirring stirring some of this I mean my I think there's some very good proposals that could come into the city and go in appropriate areas and that needs to have the allowance to have this sort of stuff clearly which is why frankly I'm confused as to why RD 5 doesn't doesn't allow it I guess that's on the table as to something which we could change I mean as I think about and if you think about the setting right RD RC is most likely going to be on a major thoroughfare and maybe it's a huge acreage so they could drive in and meander through and get to something off the beaten path but already five is more likely to be something kind of off the beaten path already seems like and I really don't think anyone's going to apply to put something like this in our NR6 I don't think they are but this opens up the opportunity for us I think as we look at this to really look at are there some possibilities that we're not even thinking about now that could happen that put us in a difficult position because we've made this and I agree zoning categories are important in terms of what's there my struggle is if we put non perm itting in these NR categories it would require a rezoning to an allowable zoning category which could have equally absurd consequences in terms of what you allow because once you upgrade to a different type of zoning category just to allow a certain type of use you have to allow all the other corresponding uses that are allowed in that category so that's why this is I don't think anyone's trying to do anything harmful to neighborhoods here I think they're really trying to solve a problem with allowing a particular use so we've heard some of that rhetoric out here and so talk to me about this idea that was floated of this compromise situation which was to say what if we allow status quo in terms of the current definition because I do think while the use is the same that nonprofit profit distinction is huge and arguably to the point of changing what the use is because you're really creating a commercial property versus a nonprofit property which which the use there to me is different so there was this idea floated that what if we just kept the status quo under the current definition then create a new definition to allow for what we're trying to do and perhaps restrict it in some of these other categories I think you make an interesting point about if we made it where it was not permitted in neighborhood residential districts then in order to accommodate it they would have to go through a zoning change in both cases whether you're going through a zoning change or applying for a specific use permit it must be compatible with the Denton plan 2030 so the SUP if an SUP application comes in here and it's not compatible with our future land use plan and our future intent for that neighborhood then it would not meet the criteria for approval that is the same as if they were trying to come in and rezone however what it might do is prevents a desirable use for that neighborhood or for that area from coming in under a specific use permit because it's still in the same zoning category whereas if they had to come in and rezone one tiny spot in a neighborhood residential area it is less likely to to reflect as being consistent with the with the Denton plan 2030 even if it really is if that makes sense the zoning the rezoning could create an issue if you're zoning to a commercial right in the middle of a residential like you said yeah and it would facilitate other developments coming in in terms of limiting and making it not permissible as assembly halls but permissible as semi-public halls that is certainly one of the options that you have tonight we were trying to keep the definition and the use is consistent with the DDC as it is today and and facilitate a solution that seemed reasonable and simple if you if you're concerned about what zoning districts it's allowed in you certainly have the ability to change that and that compatibility question which is what I keep driving home with this SUV question that that's always a debatable point I mean I've seen instances where the staff says it's not compatible and the council has has looked at it and says no we think it is compatible and vice versa and and council could be split so that doesn't to me offer the level of protection that that I think it sounds like it does so my last question is is there ever the possibility in zoning categories to say this is allowed in certain categories but only for new neighborhoods new construction new something along those lines I don't know that it is we have some limitations within zoning categories but that's not one of them like for example if you look at NRM you right here there's a limitation so we have defined limitations within the DDC and that specific limitation is that it limits this the square footage of the development okay so just one last question for you what would be your heartburn given that you say there's no interest in developing in any of these and our categories currently you don't know of any we struggle to think of some I could think of some that perhaps could be proposed and would be worrisome what's the unintended consequence of us just putting n in all those categories NR one through NR six I think the unintended consequence would be that you would lose an opportunity for a really unique place making small venue within a neighborhood that you would all think would be desirable I don't know that that would happen but that that would be the opportunity loss there thank you mayor protein thank you again I'm trying to to put things in some kind of a concrete perspective and and as I'm looking at the that chart in the chart before it it where you had RD RD five yeah you know to me RD five would be a more appropriate spot whereas go back to the other chart please the possibility of some of those neighborhood residential would not be as appropriate then I'm thinking about some and I'm thinking about a neighborhood east on the east side of town south of University Drive I think it is called Lakeview Estates Lakeview Ranch it's not a ranch and you can only see the lake in the winter when the lake is up that's why I have trouble with the name but there are some large like two two plus acre lots it's probably in our one and I've been to some of those homes and I thought well this would be a cool place to have a wedding I mean it's that big so if if a person that had a really cool home wanted to turn it into a wedding venue well they would need to have some parking at it would is there a restriction and an NR one or an NR two for the amount of pavement amount of previous non-pervious area there's a lot coverage restrictions and there's a lot coverage restrictions so that might that might either prevent it or that might mean that that if they turned it into one of those halls that people would just have to park up and down the road okay I was I was thinking there wasn't much difference between if it was a nonprofit or a profit the same function until until mr. Hall pointed out yeah but if it's for profit they're gonna need to maximize their investment so they're gonna churches aren't going out mostly drumming up business for weddings I don't know and but a for-profit or operation would be I'm almost inclined to when I get an opportunity to maybe make a motion to postpone to consider maybe changing some of the the designations on the neighborhood use and maybe allowing it in our D5 and then taking some time to breathe and think and making sure that we don't create some other unintended consequences but that's just where I'm thinking right at this moment Councilmember Briggs I was going to explore what council member Roden brought up about Lucas Hall he sent alternatives and one of them was to create the new assembly hall definition and apply it to commercial and industrial because I realized that this came up you sent some background on it because of a venue that wants to come in and I don't want to create I think it sounds really good and I can see with a lot of land and in the more rural areas it sounds good but as it is as it stands I will not be voting for it tonight councilmember Hawkins yeah Dalton kind of touched on it I think that if we were to postpone this it just feels like as soon as you add that for-profit part that's where I am a little uneasy too there's just a different intensity that goes along with that and we don't have a specific applicant in front of us right this is more staff driven because they're trying they've had some that pre-application at this point okay we do want to be able to facilitate it but postponing it when we share well I think Dalton had some good points on you know commercial or but I'm struggling with you know the residential assembly hall fit there any other questions I think I'll echo that sentiment I I think the for-profit status is one of the significant factors in this because it does change the use so it would be I couldn't support this as it's presented with those uses in the neighborhoods but certainly could support the new definition and I appreciate the input on the on the alternative options I think those were some very great ideas and some that probably are worthy of implementing so that's sort of where I stand on that councilmember Johnson thank oh sorry somebody sorry just a quick question if we were to deny this how how long does it take for it to come back or is it I mean can we revisit it quickly or is it the same as a you've got an outright denial as opposed to a postponement in a reworking of this yeah Madam City Attorney oh sorry I'm sorry go ahead well we can certainly bring it back in a different context if the council desires to go in a little bit of a different direction an alternative here I think and I'm hearing it from some of the other members is to postpone it okay thank you Mayor Pro Tem. Well I'm thinking that another option is to remand it back to planning and zoning with a review of RD 5 with a review of the neighborhood residential and possibly with the notion of them looking again at some of the the alternative or compromise things let them work on that hash it out a little bit more apply it to some possibilities maybe including the one that's being proposed and then and then and then letting them come back to us that's another possibility councilmember I mean I I feel like we 're flirting with some possible solutions here I think the guy who has the who's move who's made an emotion might have a suggestion on that but before I guess my thought is before we get too quick to make a motion to postpone that let's hear out some of these maybe a couple other ideas to just see if there's any interest to maybe salvaging this okay we will do that any other questions councilmember Johnson thank you mayor so we've been talking about this for an hour I don't want to I don't want to remand it back and I really don't want to do it again I think we have the ability to fix it so I'm going to make a proposal I'm gonna make a motion and then we'll see what happens from there so my motion is that we don't touch the NR 1 2 3 4 6 it leave leave the neighborhood residential just like it is don't touch it don't change a thing take the new the new definition assembly halls clubs and lodges and that is allowed in our D5 and RC because I think that's what everybody's saying out in the country great in a neighborhood bad idea so doesn't that solve it if you do nothing to all the in our districts leave them just like they are semi-public which fixes the for-profit problem but allow the for-profit assembly halls clubs and lodges in the RD 5 and RC categories need to be spoken to as well so when you say RC that's not capturing all of the RC categories RC CD RC CR it's only capturing rural commercial all other categories it's permitted by right today all commercial categories and and industrial categories which way that centers commercial and industrial right so all you're talking about there is changing the definition there as well right so I would agree with that changing the definition as is written everywhere but the in our or neighborhood residential categories those don't get changed that's my motion so then where we're seeing up here on the on the slide where it says assembly halls clubs and lodges in bold is the new definition so under NR 1 2 3 but it's not even going to be on there or would be a N right there okay all right would be unchanged well I'm talking no the bottom of what they've got is SUP on there for the new and I'm saying that would be an N in other words does not allow doesn't the new definition yeah yeah if you want to add the new definition yeah well then you got a problem because you're saying clubs and lodges and above it you have quite a lot of assembly halls right but either way so you're saying an assembly hall is assuming it's for profit right would not be allowed in neighborhood residential categories so in other words what I'm saying is the in our categories we don't change a thing we leave them just like they are councilmember Bosney well I do think we need to postpone it and not try to make a decision on the fly tonight I also know we have an auditorium full of speakers who came tonight to speak and so in respect for those people you know let's wrap this up and move on to this public hearing on the power plants but I would strongly recommend that we not try to do something on the fly but we postpone this for a work session so that we can really kind of dig in because I think we all still have a lot of questions councilmember Od in I'm in Clyde to second the motion but I'm wondering if I can ask staff a quick question first prior to doing that Amy as you constructed this you you didn't construct it with the concept of retaining a former definition you constructed it with the idea of replacing that former definition with a new definition and so does his which partially gets at your concern and partially is attempting to address whether or not we can move forward with this because I I really think it resolves the issues it does would that require given that there's the motion on the table is essentially retaining the old definition for certain cat for certain zoning categories but using the new definition for others does that from your point of view require some some additional work to make that happen or is the new definition too closely tied to what the old definition is that there's so that there's lacking in this legal distinction to make that work it does present some ambiguity in the code moving forward and if we're going to create an entirely new definition we may want to think about that a little right and so my second question is is from a point of view of and any pending interest in Denton for this sort of development project what's what what what do you understand to be some time concerns with that I honestly don't know what the time concerns are okay well that's helpful I'm getting I'm getting head shakes from the audience so it must not be in that big of a hurry okay then I'll withdraw my second councilmember rodent I'll make a motion to to postpone to the next available I don't know date I don't want to say dates are because I don 't know what the date is but okay so that would next regular meeting I believe is January 5th and then there's another regular meeting in January and mr. C manager I don't know that date is it's a off Tuesday I guess if I could I mean so my understanding to continue something we could do a motion to state certain or motion to table and then we'd have to make a motion to pull it off the table when we want to put on the agenda is that correct well the motion to table you take it off the table on that that's the same meeting day that you put it on the table okay so the proper motion would be a motion to postpone okay all right we have a motion councilmember Johnson I'm fine with that I'll second the motion we have a motion to second to postpone to the date certain or just postpone available next year first available next available council all right we have a motion and a second let's vote on the board please motion carries we're going to take us a little break before we start the other one but before we do that we've got a lot of speakers so I 'd really appreciate the the audience's indulgence when you come up if you could really stay close to the time and if you could try to refrain from different public demonstrations because I the clapping I know I've allowed it but when you have 30 or 40 speakers that really can't add to the time we want to be respectful people's time so if you could just help me out with that that would be wonderful so it's about 903 oh we're not we don't have the intro music so we are now reconvening our Denton City Council meeting on Tuesday December the 15th at 9 16 p.m. and we are now we have opened the public hearing we are now towards the entering the public comment portion of agenda item 6b and as I stated early we will call out the first speaker and then I'll call the speaker who will be on deck and we'll move forward as it oh I'm sorry yes Phil yeah we do have a staff presentation prior to that I'm sorry it's okay we don't need that I'm sorry Phil I know that's my that's my fault I got 30 cards sitting in front of me so probably one's heard this yes and so I'll try to move through it briefly before the members of the community to have not heard presentation about the renewable didn't plan or people at home they have not heard it I'll try to briefly go through it and cover the main points DME the renewable didn 't plans DME's response to direction from the council to constantly seek to improve our percentage of renewables while maintaining competitive rates and maintaining reliability this plan achieve 70% renewable energy it gives us an option to be able to replace our code generation that we existing have it provides rate decreases beginning in 2020 so that we can maintain competitive rates it accomplishes a 75% portfolio emissions reduction of the portfolio we have the services and to dentin it provides to energy centers to generation centers that contain quick start units there's 12 quick start units present proposed at six at each site those sites would have a career to round them to buffer from neighbors but also provide space for research and development testing of any other new and improved renewable technology as said council direction was to increase renewables maintain rates maintain reliability current portfolio includes 40% win and use of our landfill gas while we're also buying power off the market and utilizing the long- term coal plant investment that we've had the 40% renewables that we achieved in 2009 put us as a national leader having more wind energy per capita than any entity in the United States the goal is to expand that Texas is blessed with having lots of wind energy and the solar industry is also as of late gotten their costs down and got into a more competitive state this plan calls to achieve that by making purchases in addition to back up these contracts for more renewable energy to back those up with purchases off the market when the market is economically priced but in the times when renewable energy is not available and the market prices are high that we'd have a quick start units that would back those up what that does is help us lock in favorable pricing for the next 20 years that renewable energy pricing is less now than what we've seen in the past the only issue of renewable energy the wind and the solar is as intermittent and it's non dispatchable that's a one of the issues of electricity is is that we have to match the electrical generation with the electrical load and so that means we need some amount of dispatchable power to to provide whenever the wind doesn't blow or the Sun doesn't shine at many times we'd be able to buy off the market and take advantage of low prices we're seeing in the market today and we anticipate for the near future but when those times don't happen to protect us from higher prices in the wholesale market we'd have quick start generation which allows us to buy the renewables at favorable prices this plan decreases our emissions 75 percent portfolio emissions reduction keeping in mind that ERCOT demand drives the supply so how does adding gas units to our portfolio reduce emissions because currently we are business as usual today we are receiving our power through our contract with TMPA Texas Municipal Power Agency it operates the Gib bons Creek power plant in South Texas and buying off the ERCOT market as we can see those have much higher emission rates than the generation we were talking about the quick start generation which we labeled here is Denton Energy Center of course the simple thing to do would be gee everybody likes everything everybody likes going 70% renewable everybody likes having lower rates in the future everything you know people want everything except can we just do this by having the gas plants this is interdependent I can't obtain the most economical renewable energy without having some form of backup and at this time the most economical form of backup most reliable form of backup would be these quick start units which is different than most gas units in the ERCOT it will protect our ratepayers but also allow us to buy renewable energy in the most efficient way wouldn't it be cheaper just to buy all the renewable energy the fuel is free right Sun the wind and certainly for times there are but like I said it's not dispatchable it comes when the wind blows it comes when the Sun shines and unfortunately many people's electric demands are different than those than that supply we could achieve higher renew ables but that means buying so much renewable capacity that we'd have a number of time and a number of megawatt hours that we will bought at a contract price that we'd have to sell back into the market at less than a contract price will new gas wells be drilled in order for this plant to operate no these plants will not increase gas uses in Texas these plants will not increase r acking locally or nationwide why is that you're adding gas plants but as we add these plants we adding more economical more efficient units units that have a 20% more efficiency than the average in our cot and when these plants are dispatched run that means another less efficient plant that would use more gas would not run elsewhere in our car our cod is electric liability Council of Texas which is the market that we operate in the advantage is this proposed in Texas while we have an abundance of water this year there have been many years where we have it and we anticipate four years in the future we would not have an abundance of water these plants use 12 gallons a week much less than any other traditional generation source fossil fuel generation source which would use millions of gallons of water they have very quick ramp up they can go ramp up to full speed in five minutes which makes them perfect to match up to wind energy they make an efficient use of natural gas and then they can be up and down and I have to run for a minimum runtime which combined cycle or other types of gas usage would have to that would use that would cause them to use more gas the outages being likely we're talking about 12 units we were talking about located on two different sites they would have access to multiple gas lines multiple gas transmission lines wholesale gas transmission lines are already in place that would provide reliable reliable gas to this use units the focus of our plan and what makes it very successful in the future is to attempt to layer in different types of renewable energy all these unmarked layers here are different types of solar contracts that we were obtained from different solar sites and in different types of wind panhandle wind West Texas wind coastal wind our existing wind contract that we have wind farm in Munster Texas these all these different projects have different load shapes and was factory in to help ensure that we get the maximum amount of time where we could get some renewable energy sometime from some source but there would be times especially in the summer is there in the summer months that we're having to buy off the market and that not take a financial risk to our customers that we 'd have a quick start facility that would back them up even with that much renewable energy we didn't still have some months where we'd have excess generation from the renewable contracts and we'd be selling that back into the market considerations here as far as timing of by adopting this plan when we put it in place it reduces the amount of emissions metric tons a day of all the bad things here nitrous nitric dioxide volatile organic compounds sulfur dioxide particular matter it also reduces tons per day of carbon dioxide savings it creates that creates the rate reduction capability is savings an average over 20 years of thirty six thousand dollars a day we have issued a request for proposal for the plants we've issued a request proposal for the wind energy contract for 200 megawatts of wind we've also issued a request for qualification from design build firm we've also attempted to obtain site control to different sites by doing that we've also filed and obtained our air permits all these things are so we can do our due diligence improve up to the point of we forecasted the cost of this project to be 220 million dollars so this would lend us to a place where we can back that up and ensure that we can execute this program at the cost that we've modeled and say we can right now the units we're looking at some of the units of some of the companies we're looking at our foreign companies the exchange rate with those companies are good production tax credits the tax extenders in Washington have been extended for this period of time for another two years so we don't want to wait till those go away and interest rates at this time are favorable a quarter percent increase in interest rate would add seven million dollars to the project that's all I have as a presentation available for questions we do have a couple questions and I just to share with my colleagues typically we've opened the public hearing at the guinnipe staff presentation I just failed to do that so I'll do it after if we have questions for staff and then we'll open it up after that councilmember Briggs well I have I have several things but I also want to let the public talk but I do want to before before they start speaking in the claim of 75 for dent reduction in the emissions for the renewable plan versus business as usual I learned that that amount does not include the generation that we plan to do for aircott and I believe that I asked to get that percentage I was wondering if you had that yes during break we staff did work on that and we were still trying a 15% reduction even with generating for our cotton and that does not offset that doesn't include there would be another generator somewhere that would still not run but 15% in in our use of gas even with generating for our condos we've helped model so the reduction in emissions goes from 75% to 15% so we're saying yes okay and also my question was on the the natural gas slide that we saw where no new gas would be needed was the generation for aircott included in that yes okay thanks no wait yeah I'm good for sure you bet okay fantastic councilmember Hawkins well and I touched on this in work session I think it's on slide 13 if you can just kind of show that but I just wanted to know under what circumstances or count Erakat will ask us to turn on the quick start plan so there 's a couple of situations that occurs in one is certainly during any emergency situation so like an event that happened February 2nd of 2011 where there was a freezing event across Texas that caused many units that were planned to run during that day pipes froze and many of us used didn't appear and so they put out a request for everybody had any unit to start up and run as they were short of power that day the other time that that would happen is is we would the independent market monitor in our cot reviews that every generating unit in our cot has to participate in the market and bid in their cost we would not be asked to supply energy and below our costs but we'd have to bid in our unit at cost they consider that unit our unit against other units in our cot and they would dispatch us to run anytime this unit was more economical than other units to run in our cot okay answer your question council member Rodin to piggyback on an earlier question and then I've got a few more as it relates to how we calculate emissions isn't it typical that you would calculate the emissions that are involved in the energy generated for the portfolio needed to power your city yes in other words if if we happen to have a generating asset that's generating for somebody else's city that they're buying off the market as a result the emissions for that are credited or accounted to for who for the other entities buying the power just as we 're buying power from part of the emissions that we would be responsible for as a market power we're buying that we counted in here buying off the market right so it'd be another another entities emissions is what you'd be crediting that towards so that's a that's a crucial distinction and kind of how energy plays out so if emissions then in terms of our own portfolio just to clarify it you'd still stand by the 75% reduction coal if people are concerned about coal how much coal are we investing in under the renewable dent in plan well this would not this would contemplate that we would not be invested in coal that we would find methodology and working with our partners and other member cities TMPA to find a way to disinvest ourselves from the coal right in terms of natural gas and I guess there's a question I would have as to how it relates to this what it takes to power our city and I think I saw a statistic that said the comparison between business as usual what we have now in our current portfolio to the renewable dent plan represents a 37% reduction in the need for natural gas yes sir to power our city using that portfolio renew ables goes from 40% all the way to 70% someone's concerned about rates we're looking at a reduction of thirty six thousand dollars savings of thirty six thousand dollars a day that's it for now thank you. Councilmember Wasney. Mine is just a point of clarification for our citizens who are in the audience and watching at home ERCOT is a greater Texas electrical grid that we are a part of with our dent municipal electric so when you hear ERCOT that's what they 're talking about thank you councilmember Briggs so I just wanted to one quick follow-up before we let people start talking did I did I hear you say that these the emissions calculations were based on the assumption that Gibbons Creek our coal plant would close and that our other partners would not be using it either no what I was saying is we would invest ourselves in Gib bons Creek it is a jointly owned it's a joint action agency Texas Municipal Power Agency is four member cities of Bryan Denton Garland and Greenville those member cities that we've been working with about what the future of TMPA is and how it operates in the future and that's what we're working on is how what we would do if our share and how it would work in future but this plan contemplates that we would not be depending on that power from that plant for our portfolio but it will most likely still be running and still contribute to the market so in essence from our percentages when we're buying from the market we might still be buying from that plant I'm just trying to figure this out and well when we buy from the market it's a market the ERCOT market is composed of four nuclear units multiple coal units not just Gibbons Creek but multiple coal units in the market and gas units and wind and solar and other participants in the market so help me figure out here because there's all these different generation units and you said that if we're running someone else will not be so does ERCOT contact specific generation stations and say okay you you run now and so the coal plant will not be running because they ask us to is that every unit all these units put in what their variable cost are and what their cost to run is whether it's nuclear coal gas and so they spot those in their dispatch order and dispatch the most economical means to generate the load for ERCOT for a total ERCOT system yeah I guess that's just where I got confused when you said we would be taking away emissions from other plants that would be running if so the average so the average heat rate in ERCOT is a 20% less efficient than these units and so their units are much worse there's some units about me better but but less but we'd be less than our efficiency of our unit would be less than the average of these units in our cop market okay thank you thank you any other questions for staff seeing none all right thank you we'll now open the public hearing our first speaker will be Pamela watt and the speaker after that will be Mike Chiefs state your name and address and your time will begin my name is Pamela watt and I live at 2118 cherry woodland and I am the pastor of Denton Unitarian Universalist Fellowship and I present you with a resolution that was approved by our congregation a couple of weeks ago you should have it it's it says do resolution on Denton renewable energy plan and so first of all what I want you to know that as far as we know in the last several decades Denton Unitarian Universalist Fellowship has only passed two resolutions and this is the second of those two resolutions and so this is not something we do with any frequency or or anything that we do lightly the congregation asked me to stand before you and present this resolution and they have never asked me to stand in front of City Council and frankly I much prefer watching your meetings at home with a glass of wine you know the streaming is great I love that thank you but this is really important this is important to me this is important to our congregation and to Denton and there are two things that they asked that I be sure to point out first we want to congratulate the city for sourcing over 40 percent of its energy from renewable sources and for promoting the green sense incentive program to prevent to promote ongoing energy conservation we also want to acknowledge DME's plan for increased renewable energy with a goal of 70 percent in 2019 we appreciate the leadership of city City Council staff and others who have shared our interest in promoting clean renewable energy these forward-thinking green promoting practices give us pride for our city inspiring us to be responsible residents good consumers and involved citizens of Denton we also urge you to stay on course as Unitarian Universalists we believe that care for and stewardship of our environment is a shared human responsibility we also believe in a sense of universal mutual salvation that is to say that none of us are saved unless all of us are saved as such we do our best to care for one another to promote public health and safety to minimize loss of habitat to reduce pollution and to generally care for the resources that we borrow from future generations which is why we are here to encourage City Council to seriously consider the implications of investing in any fossil fuel based production equipment and to share our goal for 100% renewable energy an essential goal both for Denton and for our planet with increasing renewable options out there is fossil fuel extraction really where we a growing forward -thinking city should be going when I make decisions for myself and for my household and even for the church I don't have a whole lot of influence or power to change the overall health of the environment you all have tremendous power in this decision and we as Denton Unitarian Universalist Fellowship invite you to use your power and Denton's power for good thank you for your service and thank you for your serious consideration of this Mike's off thank you very much I appreciate that the next speaker will be Mike Chiefs and Mr. Chiefs has filled out a group request to speak representing four people Michael Chiefs the second Michael cheese the third Kelly Wilkerson and Marilyn Haggard and I'm they are present is that correct okay so therefore you have up to ten minutes if you'd like to take that the next person on deck will be Jody Ismert I think I got that right I hope any Jody I'm sorry yes so that Michael Chiefs second 900 Jeffrey Drive Denton Texas seven seven six two oh eight Kelly Wilkinson Michael Chiefs the third Marilyn Haggard okay yeah there's four it's and the four is including the speaker is that correct yes that's the rule okay yep all right that's the rule okay yes sir all right counselors I appreciate the opportunity to come speak on behalf of what we've called them McDonald Highlands group at this stage of the game due to the age of the residents in our district and the tendency of these meetings to run rather late we these four to kind of took the took one for the team but we've we've had conversations with dozens of people in our area in regards to sort of what we're talking about tonight in regards to the gas plants themselves so I request the objective of this presentation is to request that the City Council postpone a decision on the two gas-powered electric plants until a thorough independent un biased third party consultancy performs a comprehensive analysis on the culture organization process and technology of our staff then the environment and environmental impact as well and provide all the options including going to the open market for our electricity so what we picture is is some type of grid that says here are all the options and here's the pros and cons of each of those options because we haven't really seen that I watched the work session this morning and watch this presentation here and it just it doesn't make sense to me there's some things that are missing we haven't looked at all the options that are out there about a decade ago I became part of a group of people that was called the open compliance ethics group OSEG it was designed to help organize the thoughts around how to manage publicly traded companies when you guys talk about your ethics ordinances things of that nature instead of taking something that somebody else is doing you could compare this you could compare yourself I'm going to show you the comparison of a publicly traded company versus a public a public city and how those comparisons would work but where you have a strong culture helps you can it helps you guide the the which it shows right here it helps you guide the conduct when formal structures are weak or non-existent or absent and then you hire the right kind of people qualified personnel that are responsible for the oversight strategy and operations of your governance of what you're doing and your ethics and your compliance and then you put in the appropriate level of processes that make it effective efficient responsive then you put in technology to support that and that's the whole concept around OSEG is copped culture organization process technology so I would strongly suggest and I appreciate what mr. Moff at said earlier that we don't have to stop the minimum of what we're doing in relationship to that this is a the decisions that we're making today are are the type of I mean it ethics isn't just conflict of interest ethics is am I doing the right thing at the right time all the time and that includes prioritization centralized project management and variety of different other things so if you notice here city government you know so we have the citizens citizens are equal to shareholders in a publicly traded company city council is equal to the board of directors of a publicly traded company city manager is the chief executive officer in publicly traded companies chief executive officers are held to extremely high standard matter of fact for Sarbanes -Oxley forces them to the highest level of standard and that they that they make sure they spend the shareholders monies of money appropriately I don't know why that doesn't happen in city government at the same level as it does in a publicly traded company the assistant city managers are the executive management team the chief financial officers this chief executive chief operating officers directors and general managers or vice presidents and directors so there's a very direct correlation OSEG goes through that whole thing very very systematically and manages it extremely well and shows you step-by-step how to put in the proper governance compliance and risk management and what we're talking about is that the reason I'm saying that we need to have a third party come in and look at what's going on is currently today right so if we look at our current situation today the staff that's responsible for our topic today is city manager who's our CEO essentially who's been here nine years now in relationship to that and then all of the things that we're talking about all the things that I'm talking about specifically here happens to fall into the assistant city manager of Howard Martin only because that's where all of these topics that I'm about to talk about why we need to have a third party consultancy come in and look and help us help us evaluate all of our options so mr. Martin's been here so 45 40 years you know since 1975 and he's over electrical operations environmental services water operations wastewater operations drainage streets traffic and light street lighting and so that's so in a publicly traded company you hold the CEO accountable and you hold whoever the executive is that's over those divisions so based on that me coming from that background that's the context of my presentation here so on November 2nd I tried to have this conversation I sent out an I sent an email out on November 2nd to volunteer help so where I stated here that I'm management consult with over 20 years experience I've noticed a lot of things that were happening in the newspaper we're having some failures or failure to meet expectations when column failures or whatever failures is an event not a person but there were some there's some there was some some things that were being stated in the newspaper and so I volunteered to actually try to have a conversation but I did not receive a response to my email in regards to that so therefore our backs against the wall we're about to make critical decisions so we're having to have this conversation here instead of first handling it directly with with city staff so failure to meet expectations in in in the OSEC model means that there's you know you fail to meet expectations it's either a character issue or a competence issue character issue means you know what to do but you're choosing not to do it or competencies you don't know what to do right in relationship and so having said that if I look at the it's some of the failures that we have in relationship to this currently we have an F rating on air quality in our city and why would we ever add any pollution to our air it 's just a question that popped in my head I'm by no stretch of the imagination an expert in the environment but I bet you there's a whole army of people behind me that probably are and we're gonna have a lot of conversation about that but why would we but why would we add to it we talked about we talked about in the in the presentations by the staff that we were going to get a 75 percent reduction but that air pollution doesn't happen here in Denton that happens in Bryan Texas right so with the overall environment yes but right now we 're about to add to an already very very difficult situation which is that we already have which is the air quality itself so failure and citizen safety right so we look at the citizen safety issues that we've talked about like our result reverse setbacks and the oil and gas stuff are too close they just are that 's an area where we choke where we've made a decision not to not to address those reverse setbacks because they're closer on a fire standpoint than they need to be the sidewalks on McKinney we already talked about 22 years and counting we're still trying to get that thing done the city dump has three trailer parks around it with young children the rodents and the coyotes are crazy running around that place at some point some child's going to get hurt in relationship to that we have homeless communities living in woods near our parks and where our new section 8 housing is going to be just learned that lastly from the police report on the woods over by over by so now we want to add two extremely dangerous power plants that that are already that are ready to explode at any time in the middle of our city it just doesn't make sense to me so there's a citizen safety we just need to be more that needs to be a higher priority than what it is on the on the on the streets if I were to ask if I were to ask the common citizen what do they think about the streets with similar situation in the streets how do we prioritize our streets which ones will be working on do we have centralized project management so that we make sure that we're we're coordinating things I just watched today where we we have various different communication strategies from different departments but there's no centralized project management office that manages those type things what about our budget on the streets do we have on time implementation so the open market analysis and I I'm not a financial analysis guy either but here's what I did I called some of the other people in some of the other cities that buy from the open market and their prices on their electric bills seem to be 15 to 25 percent less than my electric bill I don't know why I can't explain the details because we don't have to have the details behind what we have there but it just seems to me that I would like to see that in that analysis as well what are the comparisons of being on the open market and and and possibly going to the open market versus having having DMV in itself so fiscal responsibility how do we still owe a hundred and fifty million dollars on a forty year old power plant that coal plant I just don't understand I don't understand how that's I don't even understand how that's possible I bet you it's not worth 150 million right now if you tried to sell all of it but we've had it for 40 years and still a hundred and fifty million so why has this not been a rained in in 22 years or why has this not been rained in in nine years I mean if we were a public and traded company I guarantee you that's exactly what the shareholder meeting would be talking about what are we doing and why haven't we rang this in yet there's no I haven't heard anybody talk about how that how this is you know whether this is okay or not and with that I mean my time's up but what I'm what I'm trying to say is is listen I don't think we have enough of the details okay thank you thank you very much appreciate that any questions thank you Jodie is on next and then Katherine forest is on day Jodie is more at 819 Anna Street and I'm probably not gonna say anything that you haven't already heard or that you're not going to hear you know from the rest of the speakers the rest of the evening but I would just like for us to well first I want to say thank you for not voting on this this evening I think that that says a lot and I'm really grateful that we're not actually taking a vote on anything this evening I also think that January or February is a little bit too early considering citizens have only heard about this since October so I'm asking you to slow slow it down essentially I would also like to see an independent expert or a group of experts not related to get that municipal electric and also not related to any industry any oil and gas industry or any renewable industry as well really take a look at our city and give a comprehensive analysis of what we can do not using fossil fuels if that's possible how we can reduce energy consumption different methods that we can use to do that I would also I just have a lot of questions which I brought up yesterday actually during the daytime meeting and actually a lot of my questions have not been answered but some of them were answered earlier today in the the meeting at one o'clock which was nice and Phil has from DME has offered to meet with me after Christmas which I am very thankful for so thank you Phil but as far as as what I have heard it just seems to me that the only considerations that we are looking at as a city are economic considerations not really balanced with climate change scenarios and climate change is a real consideration you know there are in light of talks in Paris in light of new regulation from the EPA you know lowering emission standards to 70 parts per million for down from 75 we're in a non attainment zone already we're down wind from Dallas we get a lot of emissions from Dallas I'm struggling to understand how adding two gas plants to Denton is going to reduce emissions I realize that I realize that you know there are certain calculations and if you produce emissions in the city even if they're for a different town that that town counts the emissions for themselves you know as that was said earlier but really in reality we're actually getting the emissions here in town so I mean that's that's the reality of it that the emissions are actually happening at the site of the gas plants and they are literally going to be within Denton city limits so I struggle with understanding how we are reducing emissions in town I'm also struggling with the fact that I learned that that the data that DME provided only includes emissions from the gas plants that it doesn't include emissions from the entire life cycle of producing natural gas so for example for fracking it doesn't include those emissions which would be about eighty four thousand one hundred tons per year over 20 year period over a 20 year period would be three million eight hundred eight hundred eighty eight thousand tons I believe I might be doing math anyways but I just would really like to understand this better and I would like to postpone it I would like an independent expert I would like for climate change to be considered and I would I would I would really like to feel like the citizens are involved in this decision instead of having as involved as what was in the past thank you thank you very much I appreciate that the next speaker will be Catherine Forrest and on deck will be Bob Moses you'll come down state your name and address your time will begin hello this is my first time speaking to the City Council first time I've seen all of you I'm sorry ma'am your name and your name and address please my name is Catherine Forrest I'll lift this up there I live part of the year here in Denton and part of the year in California so I'm familiar with two different states there I own a rental property here in the southern part of this county and southern part of Denton County and our guy it's technically called Argyle and about a year and a half ago I noticed that they were putting in pipelines platforms and things like that and found out that this was going to be a site for doing fracking they're going to be doing fracking there and they're going to be transmitting the whatever they get up out of it and immediately I said that property I own there is not going to be worth anything if I continue to own it because it was a rental property so I sold it just recently I'm glad to say it was bought by somebody who also is using it as a rental property so that somebody isn't putting their life savings into buying a house near that because I think that it would be very health disturbing to be around a fracking site after the after the climate conference in Paris it became obvious the countries all around the world recognize that we can't continue to depend on fossil fuel energy for our heating or our cooling and that there in fact aren't enough support enough supplies of energy that are renewable like wind and solar which Texas has an abundance in and it's in the interest of the people of Texas in fact to use those and switch over from using fossil fuels furthermore there there are new technological developments in terms of storing energy so that being able to have to say there's a whole peak time of day when you have to be able to use something like gas-fired plants that's not going to be the case with the battery things that are being developed now even with what I've seen in California in terms of building codes and timing of the day so that the billing for the cost of energy differs with the time of day they are able to have people themselves modify their behavior and their use of energy so you don't need to have these times when you have a peak time that you have to have more energy the people of of Denton have already said that they don't want fracking here in Denton and I'm sure that it's not going to be in the interest of people in Denton to be able to have a gas-fired power plant and it won't be in the interest of the people in the other areas where the gas is coming from if we buying it from out of town so I think it's not in the interest of the people of Denton to be putting money into building two gas-fired power plants now because within the time period it's going to take to get those things built and up and running you could accomplish much more in other ways and without having to commit yourself to something that's going to be harmful not only to people in Denton and Texas but all around the world. And I did want to raise one more point which is I think that the decision on this this particular issue about the the power plants should be made openly this way and with where the public can be hearing the discussion rather than having it be in some closed session between people who are political and people who have money who put it into possibly the pockets of politicians. This is an open question for the public. Thank you. Thank you very much. Bob Moses and Evan Carpenter is up and just want everybody know we tried to get the trying to get the air conditioner lowered a little bit so we can cool down the room. My name is Bob Moses. My address is 1702 Pine Hills Lane in Corinth. I'm a business owner in Denton. I have a building also on the on the square in Denton and I'm really here primarily to speak just on my behalf but as on my behalf as a small businessman and and I personally I don't I have I have strong convictions about some aspects of global warming and things like that. I'm a scientist in my background but what I really am looking for is trying to raise the awareness of both the City Council and the public of the situation that the small business community has here and I chose to come here and have a small business here because of the quality of of living in Denton and of the quality of management of our city that I think we had when I came and I think we still have that so I have a lot of confidence here but a situation that the small businessman or woman has is that we're very much I'll just say at the mercy of Denton Municipal Electric and that 's in your all's control to a great deal and so I want to raise your awareness to that fact that the small businessman comes here and we really don't have much I'll say negotiating power as far as compared to major businesses which can get incentives and other things so we're we're pretty much stuck with whatever the rates are that that are handed down to us as a residence owner I do have some flexibility and in fact I and my wife we we purchased an all-electric house when we came here not realizing how expensive it was going to be for us to heat that house and and in the winter time and so I did have a gas line run to the house when there was a development built around me so that I can actually heat much of our house with natural gas which actually is a very clean burning fuel the only only thing you get when you burn natural gas is water that's all that's left over if you burn it well so my point is that as a business person using electricity in our business we don't have much control over it because if you're dealing with the public you have to have a comfortable place for the public to be whether it's summer or winter you have to have a nice environment and so that's costly if you're manufacturing a product which we do and the business that I'm involved with I share business where we manufacture an ice cream product we're spending between our two locations close to 45,000 approaching $50,000 a year now on electricity and and much of that is out of our control I mean we have to have places warm and well lit and attractive to our customers we have to spend the money to produce and manufacture our product so I just want you all to be aware of that and and I praise your attitude of trying to find a compromise solution that's going to be to the benefit of our health and our children and everything else but also trying to keep the cost of our energy here reasonable so that we can earn the money it takes to expand and that's and we would like to expand our business and so the lower the rates are the the faster we will get there because we can set aside that money so that's all I have. I have a question Councilmember Briggs. Some it has been brought up about having a tiered rate structure that might help you using energy at different times of the day which may help some business owners and also have you thought about installing solar panels to offset some of that cost on either your home? I've thought about it on my home and the problem with with my house is the roof area and direction that it faces compared to the area I'm trying to heat and cool. It's a large house, it's an old house, large house and so that's why I haven't gone with solar panels. Here on the square the amount of power we're using there and the number of times in a year that I have to have people up on top of this old building, my building was built in the 1880s, it really inhibits you from thinking about putting solar panels or something else up there that's going to get damaged or have to be maintained and compared to the amount of energy you're going to get back out of it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Up now will be Evan Carpenter and then on deck will be Ph yllis Minton. Evan, is Evan here? One more time for Evan. Okay. I'll just... Evan Carpenter 1713 Carlton Street was in opposition and I probably due to the the posting. Phyllis Minton is up now with Rita... is it Boving? Beving? Beving, I'm sorry. It is on deck. I'm sorry, state your name and address and time will begin. Phyllis Minton, 2005 Burning Tree Lane in Denton. Thank you for letting us come and speak before you. It's an issue that we're all concerned about. I just feel like I want to say that I think we need more time to do more research on a 225 million dollar gas project that would only take us to the year 2030, I believe. 60% of the Denton voters last year affirmed our wish to live in a frack free community. It follows that we do not want to invest in gas plants which would require more gas being drilled somewhere in the universe. Denton's growing quickly and I think it's our responsibility to plan for our children's future and their children's future. Please take the time to study this very carefully before making taking a vote on the issue. Interesting that we were here the same evening that Mr. Hud speth pointed out some of the difficulties around Ryan High School. Ryan High School has been in existence for 24 years. Under so many people's watch there 's still not a safe way for children to get to school. I don't want 24 years from now another generation to be looking at steps that we failed to take with the most profound thought at this point regarding these gas power plants and our power future. Thank you. Thank you. Rita is up and then Larry Beck is on deck. Good evening. Name and address please. Sorry I'm sorry. My name is Rita Beving. I live at 13214 Glad Acres Drive in Dallas, Texas and I work for Public Citizen. For many years I served on the North Texas Clean Air Steering Committee. That is a committee of 19 to 21 officials and citizens that make recommendations every so many years on devising a plan to clean up the air for our nine county region. This region has been in non-attainment for decades. Just this year the EPA was considering bumping us up from serious to severe. That includes Denton. So what I want to point out in some of the things I've heard in the couple workshops I attended is this. I keep hearing DME talking about negating these emissions or that emissions or whatever but the basic thing is you cannot trade or swap clean air. You can't negate actual emissions from plants on the ground in this region. Let's talk about Gibbons Creek. In your packet there are three articles. One from the Region G water planning group that's been asked by Gib bons Creek to raise the reservoir level because they plan to expand operations. That's their 2016 plan. Greenville's paper indicated that Greenville is going to submit bonds to pay off the rest of their debt they owe on Gibbons Creek and it says that plan is to run till 2030. Lastly the Denton Chronicle in May of 2015 clearly had an interview with somebody from the city of Bryan who said Bryan fully intends to keep running Gibbons Creek. Now here's my point. On the North Texas Steering Committee there are hardly any power plants within our region that we have to consider because most of them aren't operating. It's the ones outside the region that contribute heavily to our non-attainment area. Three of those plants are EFH plants. Martin Lake, Monticello, Big Brown. Others include Gibbons Creek, Perky and others. The point being is if Gib bons Creek keeps running it keeps contributing to the air pollution in our air shed and then you add two gas plants okay. So the reality on the ground is a gas plant another gas plant in Gibbons Creek are three plants that can produce pollution and keep doing so. You cannot negate the actual effects on people in your city and on the ground and what it does to the region's overall attain ment. TCEQ is not going to give you credit for backing out of Gibbons Creek. If it's still running it still contributes air pollution to everywhere it blows to which is from the southeast to the northwest. So I want to call that to your attention because you cannot negate those are realities not virtual swaps of because we have a newer gas plant it offsets an older gas plant somewhere else. Those are realities you have to deal with. The other thing we have to deal with and I'm going to try and make this quick is you cannot predict what the volatility is of gas is going to be. In the congressional spending bill considered right now there will be a ban lifted on LNG plants which means gas will sky rocket. That fuel cost has to be considered as you project these coal plants into the future. We have a question. Councilmember Briggs. Do you happen to know what the cost is for a non-attainment status for a city? No I don't but I will say this. When you get moved up through the EPA ranks on air severity you can lose transportation dollars you can lose brought grants you can have every kind of business from a dry cleaner to an auto body shop and bigger have more restrictions on what they can do because they're in a non-attainment area. That was initially why Toyota didn't even move to Dallas. It's also why Boeing didn't initially move to Dallas and so we have to think about what it what it could even do for future business moving into our region if they know they have more restrictions by moving into a non-attainment area. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Beck is up and then after Mr. Beck is Ken Gold. Good evening council and Merry Christmas to you. I'm here to add my voice to those who are asking you to reconsider your commitment to the leg of the renewable dent plan that calls for two gas-powered plants. Could you just state your name and address? Oh yes sorry. Larry Beck. I live at 915 Sherman Drive. We've all expressed our delight that you've taken the initiative to divest our energy portfolio of coal and increase our allotment of renewals from 40 to 70 percent and I think we all understand that when the RDP was first comprised for your perusal and ultimate approval the part that recommended the new power plants as a backup for peak time demand seemed like the wisest choice but we now know that there are viable options other viable options. You've always known that the debt on this will still be owed long after the technology to support 100% renewable will most likely be available to us and you should know that what reduction we gain in CO2 through our use of natural gas over coal will be displaced by the methane product natural gas is. A greenhouse gas that's 86 times more potent than CO2 over 20 year period of time. So let that sink in for a second and many of us are still not convinced that we truly will lower the pollutants of nitrogen oxide, sulfur dioxide, and volatile organic compounds when you take in the process of supplying energy from start to finish and I've yet to hear anything from those who strongly support the need for two gas power plants that would negate the other options we truly have. In fact upon closer inspections there's not all that much risk in choosing to go 100% renewable now. It has been duly noted that no major Texas energy production company is investing in the kind of plants that DME proposes to build. DME staff have informed us that no new wells will be required to fuel these two plants but is that a condition that will be with us over the long haul. Especially the decades old export ban is lifted generating greater demand for the product which looks highly likely. Nonetheless the status quo remains in place instead of reducing even further the toxic pollutants and greenhouse gases that come from supplying these plants with methane gas, methane product. Some of you may be in denial about the climate science that associates human activities in global warming and some of you simply aren't sure one way or the other. There are no absolute when this issue is raised but if we always waited for absol utes in all things we would have progressed very little over the years. Our knowledge however increases rapidly each year and we are now more certain than ever that burning fossil fuels poses an imminent seriously an immin ently serious threat to the only ecosystem we have. 97% of the experts who study the cause and effect of climate change have posited this position. Who among us would not take the action that 97% of experts recommend. Wind and solar are our future. Our state is blessed with these natural resources. That's a certainty we can take to the bank for an awful long time to come and we can't say that with the same level of confidence with finite resources like natural gas that are becoming tougher to attain and more costly in doing so. So when the dramatic changes of our environment do occur from a warming planet will we and our children be able to look back and say we did everything we could to mitigate our contribution to this problem. We can if we move forward with an energy plan that does not include construction of two methane powered plants. Thank you. Thank you. Ken Gold and on deck will be I believe is Topher Jones. State your name and address your time will begin. Thank You Mayor members of the council my name is Ken Gold I live at 2512 N atchez Trace here in town. First I just want to thank the council for having this public hearing it was a little bit of an effort to get it to happen. I know back in in November there were at least two council members at a work session saying they were ready to vote on this right then and I think it's a better plan to have a conversation with your constituents. This public hearing is vital. I also appreciate the fact that you're going to postpone or it looks like you're going to postpone action on this resolution to give everybody time to study both sides all sides to hear what the new information was tonight from DME that it's not really going to be 70% savings in emissions but now it's actually only 15% this new information keeps coming in that's why I think it's really important that we seriously look at a third party neutral unbiased second opinion because how do you really know what your options are if you're only hearing it from one side and I think that's that's critical and again I want to thank you for this opportunity to have this public input I really wish all seven of you were here tonight obviously there's important work to be done and I I just want to say thank you for for doing this a lot of other speakers I yield back the balance of my time. Well thank you Mr. Gold thank you very much for that. Mr. Jones I believe Topher Jones and then on deck will be Ronda Love. Hello everyone Topher Jones 419 Fulton Street in Texas 7620 1. I reside in Councilmember Wasney's district I'm really happy to be there and speaking of that I'd like to ask the council to kind of consider what Councilmember Wasney and Councilmember Briggs have brought to you up to you guys specifically finding an independent analyst slowing this down and allowing the citizens to vote on this. To get an analyst doesn't mean to undermine Phil Williams or DME I know these guys are educated in what they 're doing there I know that they've done a lot of research I know that their experience is they've many many years but I feel like their experience is more concerned with maybe coal technology and gas technology so what I'm asking maybe is even to hire somebody who their experience and knowledge is strictly in renewables that way we get a completely opposite side of the spectrum. I'd like to see two different things go in here like two different plans so somebody that's actually even that's their career that's what they've studied that's what they've been doing somebody just in renewables only I know that Phil Williams is very knowledgeable in the situation going on and especially with these gas plants but let's get somebody maybe that's completely coming out of the different spectrum there because these plants if looking at research in five to ten years these plants it looks like they're going to be obsolete we 're gonna owe a lot of money on these things we're seeing it now with a coal plant we owe 150 million that's way out of date these plants by the time the technology comes around if it's going to be a lot of money that we still owe so I seriously can hopefully we can bypass these plants. Another thing is to slow this down I've knocked on over 200 doors here in Dent in the past few weeks just trying to spread the word of the Dent renewable plan and also the green sense and nobody I talked to knew about these things I was very surprised I understand that DME sent out mailers in the mail but I feel like and maybe they've put some things in the utility bills but that's essentially junk mail I didn't see the fly er when it came in the mail I heard from it somewhere else so these things just go in the trash and nobody had talked to you actually remember getting that in the mail I think the best way to do this is word of mouth talking to people knocking on their doors letting them know face to face I'd like for you guys to ask us to help you we can go door to door I will help you will knock on the doors educate people people didn't know about the green sense plan I think you guys should be pushing that and if you have businesses I feel like you should you know sign up for this also so slow this down more and more people are learning about it we are telling more people they're becoming more educated on it we 're going to continue to educate the public on it too so word of mouth not Facebook not Twitter that stuff is not the best way to spread news is to be face to face with people so allow more time with this so we can we can spread the word and I think with more people learning about it I think it's good that we should be able to vote on this we have to vote on what we're going to spend our money on the city with their roads schools parks and other municipality things so I think this is very important I think that we should have a choice and whether or not we go with this plan I feel like the council has sold us this one plan and that's it and there are definitely other options out there and I hope that you consider these things thank you have a question council member breaks it concerns me that you went to over 200 houses and it wasn't just me but it was also there was other people a lot of my other citizens here in Denton that also knocked on doors on other doors so right and they had no idea was it that they didn't know about the renewable plan or they didn't really know that gas plants were included in the really didn't really know there about the new renewable plan in general and then they were of course they were concerned when we you know broke down the yeah what was going on but as far as green sense nobody had any idea what that was all that's pretty concerning yes and I did get an update that we're at a hundred and thirty three now for the right so it was at 78 so we got a few more signed up it was less than that yeah so I think you guys should be pressing that Councilmember road thank you mayor I've heard this I just want to ask you a question as to what you mean by it because I've heard it through a lot of emails and through conversations I've had that you made the statement in five to ten years these gas plants will be obsolete what do you mean by that well more and more people are putting money like look at Bill Gates he's putting billions of dollars into research and renewables other people are doing this also just reading articles and finding information on like battery storage that sort of thing is that sort of technology is going to be coming around from what I've been reading and just different places in five to ten years that's going to be something that's going to be better and more that's what our future is all about so is the claim that in five to ten years the entire Texas grid is going to be a hundred percent renewable I'm not I'm not answer that question I'm just saying over overall in general like this technology and solar and when the storage is going to be better from what I've been reading and I'm wondering why maybe we can buy more solar power I noticed that that is not there's not a lot on maybe we can look more into that any other questions thank you very much appreciate it thank you Rhonda love and then Ed soap is on deck please state your name and address your time will be in my name is Rhonda love I live at 1921 Holly Hill Lane thank you for having this public hearing just noticed there are probably more people here tonight than came to the open houses you had on this matter I think we have a lot more work to do about informing the public about what needs to be done thank you for slowing it down I'd like you to slow it down even more add my voices to those who are suggesting you talk to some people who are expert in other areas such as the environment I know you have expert opinion around but I really think you need to hear from some more I was particularly impressed by the gentleman who came to the public meeting that was held a few weeks ago his name escapes me but I think you know who I'm talking about I could at least get you the information a bit later I want you to do a health impact study I chose to move to Denton and in I moved here in 09 and in 06 I started looking at issues around the quality of life and my backgrounds in public health I taught public health for 34 years at the University of Toronto so I'm not an expert on toxins in the environment by any means but I am relatively comfortable with notions of public involvement in community health decisions and you know you can you can learn a lot by doing what are called health impact studies and I'm not looking for work for myself but you can find somebody to do those studies for you you should have some in my opinion you should have some discussions with a county health department you should have some discussions with the University of Texas Health Science School and find somebody who can do this kind of study for you we have an expert in water let's find mr. dr. Banks equivalent an air and have him or her do such a study for us because I learned when I was researching coming here that we all know about the non-attainment but you know even years ago the American Lung Association gave us an F for air quality and we have the highest rates of asthma and children practically the entire nation and I'd like to see how any of this is going to help that and people who have those skills to do those analysis can let us know and we should have that information is anything we're doing anything we're proposing actually going to improve the health of the people in Denton I'm not convinced but I think there are people who could help us understand it I have a couple of particular questions have you actually talked with people in the county about how they see the health impact of this and if not could you please do that how have you looked at what the health care costs are this is not hard to calculate and it would be part of a health impact analysis I'm going to know who's going to monitor the air these plants air emissions and what kind of remedies are going to be available for non-compliance I also want to know is there going to be some additional training needed for our first responders and if so who's going to be paying for that additional training that's going to be I presume going to be needed or is this just one more thing they they have to do I'd like to know if you have a calculated all the emission sources and from natural gas production processing compression and delivery have all of those been included in these calculations that we're reading in the plan so that is I think what I would like to impress upon you and most of all I just want to leave you with the idea of please do a health impact analysis thank you question councilmember breaks hi did you know that there's just one monitor in our area and 16 total in the DFW area I couldn't give you the right figure the exact figures but I know we don't have and from what I've heard like say for example in Corpus Christi there's 16 just just in Corpus just in there yes and also that the monitor we have at the airport is from the night it's from the 70s like it's that old yes well as part of DAG I know that we have talked to you a lot about monitoring air quality and yeah don't feel we 've gotten very far with that one okay thank you thank you thank you Ron Mr. So f and then up after mr. Sof is Carol so good evening Ed so 1620 Victoria Drive in Denton again thank you for this opportunity for this public hearing many of the points that I was going to make have been made much more eloquently than I so I'm not I'm going to try to avoid repeating this past Saturday in Paris leaders of a hundred and ninety five countries agreed on one thing and that is that the burning of fossil fuels has to stop they have to stop if we are to be spared the economic social and environmental cataclysms of climate change with that in mind I know there's been a great deal of talk about ozone but there hasn't been that much talk about greenhouse gases in Denton so if I could have the overhead Jennifer yes it work yeah I think if you said it there they should they should put pull it up on the screen about as high-tech as I get okay on the sustainable Denton website which is a great website they have the August 2015 municipal greenhouse gas inventory of the city of Dent on this is not the community that's a separate number but for the sake of simplification I'm just going with the city's the municipal inventory because the peaker plants are municipal facilities in 2011 the city's greenhouse gas inventory you've got the metric tons and if you translate that to US tons it's a hundred and thirteen thousand two hundred and forty nine that's down from the 2006 total of a hundred and fifty one thousand five hundred and eleven so we've actually the city's actually brought its greenhouse gas footprint significant significantly down the green sense program the LED light bulbs the wind wind power this is what we're seeing okay now here's the rub if renewable Dent on's proposed 12 gas-fired engines are allowed their maximum annual co2 emissions this is from their air permit if you haven't seen the air permit get staff to give you copies of the air permit those engines are allowed a maximum of three hundred and forty five thousand and fifty six tons per year of more co2 equivalent emissions that is an increase of Denton's greenhouse gas footprint the municipal footprint I stress of two hundred and thirty one thousand and eight hundred and seven tons per year that to me is not progress especially with what's come down the pike and is still coming down the pike and is yet to come down the pike with climate change we have to act locally but we have to think globally so I think the most important question of all is have you really had the opportunity and the resources to assess the economic and environmental liabilities of this facility in the long term the 40-year term so in the best interest of Denton's economic future and its environmental and public health I think it is crucial that the approval of this project be postponed until more independent research and dialogue has explored increasing Denton's renewable energy portfolio beyond 70% and the fate of Gibbons Creek is known it's better to be safe than sorry thank you I have a question we have a question mayor pro tem if you put your chart back up there if you would thank you we've the council has seen that report with the with the reduction of greenhouse gases and we've gone into great depth of that in our committee on the environment which does monitors our sustainability plan and when I asked what what the reason for that big reduction from 2006 to 2011 the answer was us going to 40% wind energy and so I would imagine that when you look at all of the factors involved in in Denton's carbon footprint that when we move from 40% renewable to 70% or whatever the next number is that that you'll actually see that the overall number goes down even more because we're actually reducing our use of fossil fuels by 50% so so I just ask you to keep that in mind as you as you you know think about the overall impact because I I think that you bring up an important point well I appreciate that and that's even more reason why I feel we need independent review of this thank you thank you oh we had one more question mr. Sofa councilmember Rodin in the Paris talks are you aware of any nations that committed to scaling to 70% renewables to power I don 't know I don't know the way the plan is now they come back every five years unfortunately in five yeah it's set up like the way it is here in Texas this EPA has given the states the power to do their own implementation plans and we've seen the miserable results of that in this state and hope to God that it we don't see the same results internationally I just bring that up because it seems like if you compare what Denton is doing to what those nations have committed to do mm-hmm what we're doing in five years is remarkable I agree and we can do more thank you Carol Sofa then up will be John Murphy good evening I'm Carol Sof 1620 Victoria in Denton I'm gonna cut mine short too because I would be repeating a lot of things that people have said already but I just wanted to add one thing about solar the US solar market is poised to have its best year in history record-breaking numbers show that 30% of all new electricity generating capacity brought online in the first three quarters of this year was from solar these statistics show the promise of investing in renewables we can build our own solar installation we can lease rooftops for solar power on businesses and homes of lower fixed income customers to offset their energy bills we can buy renewable credits to buy energy from the grid when we need it General Motors has 16 of his plants are being powered by solar and many of these plants are in the north Peter built and other businesses here are in the Sun Belt and they can do the same thing they can also generate by solar so I would encourage you to help convert businesses here to solar as well thank you thank you John Murphy up and then Adam Adam you're gonna have to help me with that last name when you get up here you've I should know it yes go ahead I'm sorry John Murphy 1905 Whitefish Court I've served on the city's Traffic Safety Commission as a volunteer since 2011 and as I contemplate this question that's being discussed it's depressing to realize that new gas plants would even be considered makes no sense to plan for active transportation and bike lanes if people are going to be breathing even more polluted air so I resign from the Traffic Safety Commission and I'll use that energy to work for change when the city government to get more candidates who value health safety the environment more than business interests thank you thank you and then Don murky is on deck Adam Gamoresky 2931 Lipizan Court so as you all know I do economic development through the Chamber of Commerce so it is my job to recruit businesses to the city of Denton most of these are large industrial and commercial businesses we don't have a lot of incentives to compete with our surrounding communities such as McKinney and Alliance Airport and in places like that so I look at this as more of a good deal for the city to be able to use that as an incentive to lure to lure other companies here other cities have for a and for be funding which is sales tax dollars that they can use to basically offer cash grants and things like that so that being said I look at this as a good thing and I'm in favor all right any questions thank you Adam appreciate that Don murky and then on deck will be Zach Youngblood Don murky okay Don must not be here Don indicates opposition okay Zach Youngblood if you'll come down state your name and address for the record and then up will be Theron Palmer there and I'm sorry Zach Youngblood 836 Hawes Drive Copper Canyon Mr. Mayor members of the council thank you for holding this meeting tonight I am currently a senior in mechanical and engineering over at UNT and I'm also a member at Denton Unitarian Universalist Fellowship as the renewable dentin plan currently stands DME is asking the citizens of Denton to take on a 200 million dollar debt to build approximately 200 megawatts of generation capacity at the energy center that's a cost of $1,000 per kilowatt installed and does not consider the continued cost of natural gas necessary for production according to a 2014 United States Department of Energy study of wind power generation in the US that cost matches the average installation cost per kilowatt for utility scale wind power the installed cost of wind power per kilowatt is now half of what it was five years ago and it is likely to drop further in the next five to ten years under the renewable denton plan in 2030 the city through DME will own only 14% of its of its total generating capacity with only 7% of that coming from renewable sources with 70% of the city's power come from renewable sources the city will own control just over 1% with 200 million on the table denton could invest in proven renewable technologies 10 to 20 megawatts at a time 25 years ago Denton municipal decided to sell its generation assets in response to deregulation of the electricity market the private utility companies were not interested in Denton share of the Gib bons Creek plant which was based on 100 year old technology now DME wants to expand its generating capacity but to do with gas-fired generators while not constructing any renewable generation capacity the only significant difference in today's portfolio versus the expected portfolio of 2019 is an increase in solar under a long-term power purchase agreement then when we reach 2030 DME will probably try to sell a 15 year old plant based on 60 year old technology in order to meet its 100% renewables target it seems the DME started developing this project on the assumption that some form of 24/7 fossil fuel based generation would be needed once the city contract with TMPA and the Gibbons Creek plant ended and I have seen great support for the natural gas on-demand plants from those in the business of building and selling them I think the city and DME should give more consideration to demand side controls and improvements in efficiency while waiting a few more years for renewable and storage technologies to mature and drop in price as economies of scale come into effect today every time an incandescent bulb burns out it is replaced by a CFL or an LED bulb old appliances finally give up the ghost and although Denton will grow as the DFW suburbs expand into a true metropolis our energy demands do not have to grow at the same pace so I'm very happy to hear that y'all decided to postpone your vote on the resolution regarding renewable then but I think under its current language it could be much stronger in terms of the liberals regarding specificity specificity regarding rates reliability and the possibility of the timeline advancing 200 percent renewable before 2030 I thank you for your time questions mayor Pro Tem you made an interesting point about the DME's investment that promotes development of more renewable generation my understanding is is that when we're able to do a long-term energy contract with a renewable source whether it be wind or solar that that long -term contract locking enterprise allows them to get the financing that they need in order to do the construction for these new generation sources the renewable generation sources that you are promoting so I was wondering if you understood that there was that there indeed is a connection between what our plan is and promoting and supporting the construction of new renewable generation yes sir I understand that if you pay money to a renewable company they will build more renewable capacity okay thanks any other questions thank you very much appreciate you coming out thank you mr. Palmer and then Al eta Thomas is on deck hello I'm Darren Palmer I live at 1700 Willowwood in the Denny a neighborhood thank you tonight for what I hope will be the first of several conversations that I can have with council collectively and individually concerning the RDP in general and the peaker plant component of the R DP in particular rather than discussing any technical aspects I'd like to spend my three minutes discussing how I and how many here tonight frame this issue within the broader context of environmental citizenship and stewardship actually have four minutes thank you in late October I attended a drink and think graciously hosted by one of our council members and a direct response to one of my questions he expressed skepticism that voters who voted in favor of the fracking ban had or were motivated by a broader environmental concerns I think it has quickly become evident to everybody in the room that there are a much broader environmental agenda which has emerged and which drives the attempts to slow the approval process with respect to the peaker plant component of the RDP the number of citizens involved in conversations around this topic has grown daily since October and the voices are becoming more certain as to the urgency of the action with respect to climate change as well as the urgency for engagement with our elected officials at the same open house mentioned previously it was also said and this wasn't said by the council member and I paraphrase that didn't alone cannot solve the world's problems was also the sentiment was also expressed that if when that one cannot solve the entire problem then no effort to solve part of the problem can be worthwhile now these reasonings employ logical fallacies which are pretty obvious which I flatly reject and they are deliberately obstructionist to political and ethical progress whereas Denton is not responsible for solving the world's problems it can contribute to lessening those problems it may not have the means to achieve all ends but it does have the means to achieve some ends I do acknowledge and appreciate efforts taken already by the city but I do not hesitate to set the bar higher it is possible that the DME has come up with a good solution for Denton's energy future needs but let us consider for a moment the three R's that they were given rates reliability and renewables that go into the calculation and how these variables have been weighted by DME's numerical calculations to yield our 70% renewable plan several council members have suggested the rates are the primary concerns of citizens as did one citizen here tonight DME would contend that reliability cannot be sacrificed many here tonight believe that renewability is the only important aspect of this plan all for whatever reasons are sincere in their belief that they're waiting at this mathematical function is the correct one but we should not be fooled be fooled into thinking that these waiting coefficients are anything other than that they all depend on where you sit as far as how you wait these there is not one solution it just depends on how you formulate the model if town council disagrees with our assessment that peaker plants are a bad idea I hope it now understands and will acknowledge that many citizens consider any gas well a bad gas well whether it is in Denton or elsewhere and that those who regard themselves as citizens of the world desire to do what is right for man humanity as a whole this issue is not going to go away we will see it for generations to come there will be many councils in the future making these same considerations and I hope that you will allow citizens the same amount of input as you give industry and commercial representatives I have a question yes you'd mentioned towards the end of your presentation that there's the three Rs the reliability the rates and the renewables I'm not putting those in any specific order of importance but but you did and that is renewables were the number one with the number one important issue and I understand that so okay so that means there's a willingness to incur a higher rate structure to have a renewable plan that is more consistent with what your what your thoughts are on those goals but as far as reliability help me understand just real briefly I don't think you're saying that we should invest in a way that creates less reliability in electric grid that in other words you know we may have more power outages or things such as that because of that I don 't think that's what you're saying is that correct well these are the three variables that are given to us okay it's reliability renewability you can make two of those independent variables but the third one becomes dependent then so if we set rate and reliability the 70% falls out as what we can achieve given whatever the standard was for rates and reliability another way of form ulating that would be to say okay I want a hundred percent reliability where do I set the rates and what risk do I incur so you can you can make those decisions they don't they don't have to be they can be weighted in whatever way one chooses to weight them okay and I'm just saying that the people here weight the reliability renewability aspect extraordinarily heavily in light of the changes that are occurring in the world right now okay well I thought we had a question but because we're in brings did you have a comment okay all right thank you very much I appreciate it thank you you bet Alita Thomas and then is it mod a modi please forgive me if I state your name and address your time will begin hello my name is Alita Tomas and I live at 1700 Willowood Street as my husband says DME has a perverse electrical rate structure that rewards consumption currently we are charged more for the first 600 kilowatts used and then the rate drops as we consume more shouldn't we charge less for the first 600 watts used and then incrementally increase the rate as we consume more a rate structure such as this encourages conservation not consumption and rewards those who have a smaller footprint now I'd like to focus focus on what has become been accomplished by regular folks in our community as Topher said earlier who care about our city and the future of our children and mankind through our network a call was put out to Denton residents to sign up for the green sense renewable rate and in late November and early December a few of us block walked to spread the word about the green sense and renewable Denton plan most everyone we talked to you had not heard about either program lesson learned people toss postcards without reading them and don 't look at inserts in their utility bills but they do respond to one-on-one communication from neighbors and friends who talked to them about life- changing issues since regular folks started these efforts green sense renewable resident residential customers have increased from 68 to a hundred and thirty three this January we are starting a full court press to get commercial customers signed up for green sense and we will continue to spread the word about the city's free energy audit and green sense rebates for going solar and other energy conserving upgrades so many people are willing to help with alternative solutions give us a chance to engage more citizens and businesses give us six months to a year to create more awareness about the cleaner greener options available including how we can all reduce our own personal consumption awareness and education are the key and finally I would like to end with the poetry of Gwen Frost ick written in 1971 we stand now where no man has stood before at the brink of destruction by our own hands we must come to understand the delicate balance by which life has survived for unknown years let each thing fill its vital niche each bird caterpillar or snail the floods of spring and storms knowing that only in our limited vision are they destructive realize that man is part of that balance that things do not exist for man alone we must create a great change in human direction an understanding of the interdependency by which the universe evolves we cannot leave it to the scientists nor any form of government each individual must fuse a philosophy with a plan of action that will harmonize with the elements no one now can justify destruction in the name of progress for progress can only come as we correlate with the forces of the universe for the common good of all we must not turn backward to find our way but by persistence and insistence engineer creative procedures that will not include destruction let no one deny the problem nor dare to say it is not his he is the plague of all mankind thank you thank you muddy have pros eyes if I've got that wrong followed by Daniel Minshew which one good evening my name is Maddie and Maddie at 2311 Norman Street and I just got my PhD at the University of North Texas in philosophy and I'm also finishing my master mechanical and energy engineering and I 'm here representing myself I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone or any entity although my talk is based on my two years of experience getting involved in a heavy or intense research on air pollution problem in the FWU area so I prepared a presentation but obviously I was too late to to have a copy on the computer but I hope I can explain verbally what I had in form of tables and animation and maps I can hand it over to you later so what we did in the past two years was to to use the photochemical model that TCEQ prepared sort of under supervision and with the help of EPA to to forecast ozone pollution in 2018 and 2017 we used that model the exact same model and we ran different scenarios hypothetical emission reduction scenarios to see what would happen if we reduce emission at three major sources one was fracking activity in Barnett Sh ale the second was five coal fire power plants that doesn't include the Gibbon Creek around the FWU area and the other source was the cement kilns in Ellis County and you perhaps you know how horrible ozone situation is in Denton it's an unfortunate combination of geography and weather and also emerging new sources such as fracking population and traffic so but you might but you what you might not know is how hard it is to get it down it is almost impossible especially in particularly for Denton to lower down ozone and to comply with the National Sundart and so we ran different simulations we had 17 major scenarios hypothetical emission reduction scenarios and I'm just giving you an example of how hard it is so in one of the scenarios because it's easy to do it and well it's almost easy to do it on the computer it's more difficult to do it in reality one of the scenarios included 19 percent NOx reduction at five coal fire power plants 19 percent NOx reduction at the cement kilns and 50 percent NOx reduction at Barnett Shale large compressors and what we got in Denton was one part per billion ozone reduction that was the only thing that we got we got more in other at other locations such as Dallas fourth fourth and by location I mean the the monitoring stations and that is what that's what we got so which still is not enough to comply with the National Sundart and the other well with having that in mind you can imagine how would it impact it's just a rough estimate I cannot give you numbers right now but I can tell you that introducing new source of NOx and VOC because this these engines or power plants are going to have more VOC than NOx as far as I know is going to is just going to introduce more ozone and and also divesting the Denton's share in Gibbons and Gibbons power plant coal fire power plant is not going to reduce pollution it's going to give the control over that part of pollution to someone else who doesn't live who don't live here in Denton right but they're not going to shut it down immediately so what well I advise and suggest is that do not install a new major source of NO x or VOC and I cannot go do you have you were gonna have your your presentation upon the computer do you have a way to either distribute it to the council members electronically or if you have it in hard copy I think that would be something that that I would like to see if and you can get it our addresses are just basically our names with it yeah that'd be great I'd like to see that council member Rodman thank you mayor and I appreciate your research and appreciate you trying to present it in its full fashion I look forward to reading more of it hypothetically speaking if every city in the North Texas region decide to do what we're doing assuming they had municipal power to be able to hypothetically and they all went to 70% all in 70 they all started divesting from the major fossil fuel sources like what we're doing and they all went to 70% with would that be moving the needle in a positive direction 70% renewable yeah just like the Denton plan yes not as much as you expect because here is the thing because traffic is one of the major sources of NOx and VOC that contributes to ozone but locally I would say yes because the the downwinds of whatever those you know major sources are are going to have better or worse air quality depending on you know what direction you you would like to go but and I guess my question is to the point is it's almost like it seems like we're struggling from this appearance of the fact that everyone around us continues to invest in fossil fuels therefore things like Gibbons Creek might still be used by someone else who's not doing what we're doing yeah we're somehow responsible for that fact by going in this direction so I think it's these sorts of thought scenarios are perhaps interesting I'd like to talk further with you about that well you perhaps you know it better than it's not your responsibility or it's not city is he responsibility to comply with with national standard ozone NOx or whatever is TCQ's responsibility to that which going if they if they fail to meet that requirement they're gonna I mean it's gonna be you know consequences for cities and the state but you can what you can do is to protect the citizen of Denton but by not introducing new source of emission and if you do decide to do that then there are other things that you can do such as you know to choose a better or the best location to put those power plants because the downwind of those power plants are going to have definitely they are going to have worse air quality right and it's a matter then it's a matter of how many people and who are leaving downwinds of those power plants and whether or not if there is any immediate and effective plan to shut down the that coal fire problem yeah yeah okay any other thank thank you because remember any other questions thank you very much thank you we're gonna go ahead and take a break it's a it's five after 11 we would now reconvening at 1124 on December 15 2015 we are in the process of a discussion or public hearing for agenda item 6b and taking public comments so we'll resume taking public comments the speaker that will be up is Daniel sit minshaw I apologize if I miss correctly or incorrectly pronounce that and on deck will be Sharon speech hello council who name an address please oh sorry my name is Daniel Minch you I live in 1922 North Locust Street in Denton I I really liked I really agreed a lot with a lot of the things I heard tonight I liked pastor watt and the things that she said and how it kind of echoed between the if this idea that you know small impacts don't affect the the whole and I think there's you know people are very busy and they're there they don't often have to have the capacity to express themselves which why I wanted to speak a little bit on some of the things that I'm feeling and after watching recordings of the City Council meeting I like some of the things that I took away were that there's there's kind of a sense of urgency that I feel and I think some people are really pushing this plan that I don't believe has been thoroughly vetted DME as far as I'm aware was referencing one dr. John from UNT as their their expert on the environmental impact of these plants dr. John is is is an oil man he was on the advisory board for petroleum engineers he is not a unbiased person to be conducting these these reviews green sense green sense you know I I had never heard of it until I heard about the this renewable didn't plan and you know very casual research you know you'll did nothing on the part of the city to actually push this thing if we got flyers I didn't get a flyer I didn't know about it there was nothing on social media you know out of 11,000 something tweets there was one tweet that I found from any city council member about the screen sense program and that was in response to another citizen who was asking a question about specifically where City Hall gets their energy from so I think we want renewable for sure we don't want to be locked into something that essentially doubles doubles down on a technology that we've already spoken in in opposition to I know it's a complex thing and there's a lot of work involved and I know that there's a lot of energy in the city and the resources are here and we just have to engage and do our due diligence and do better because I don't think this is good enough thanks question mayor pro tem thank you it's interesting that you feel like that dr. John from UNT would not be a good expert to use on air quality issues in modeling it was recommended to us by Tom Smith with public citizen who actually did a presentation on how to stop natural gas plants from coming to town he had recommended to council that we actually use dr. John to do some air quality modeling for us so why have you spoken to council yes many okay so why do you think that he's he would not be an expert dr. John yes sir I'm not saying he's not an expert on mechanical engineering and extraction I mean I've I've seen the quotes he's he's been quoted in newspapers saying he doesn't think fracking causes any environmental impact he's you know I can speak to that okay okay any other questions thank you I appreciate that thank you Sharon and then Nick Ross on deck hello I am Sharon Spies I live at 7501 stallion Street in Denton which is in Lakeview Ranch so I 'll be back on that other subject okay I'm gonna I just have some stuff written down I'm not as organized tonight as I usually am I apologize for that DME 's presentation earlier shows the VOCs and other emissions that are at the plant the EPA standards only address the same pollution at the plant that they would emit at that source of production they do not address the pollution from the process of getting it out of the ground and to the plant we all know fracking is just one component of that process and we all know how we all voted on that and I found it kind of interesting that I just saw that this whole plan started in January of this year that DME I think was a January that they started working on this I may be wrong but I just thought it was kind of ironic that that was only a couple of months after we had voted against fr acking okay so while natural gas may burn cleaner than the current fossil fuels it is still too much of a pollutant taking in the whole process from getting it out of the ground to the plant and more importantly natural gas is not a renewable it's a finite fossil fuel and I don't understand how we can say let's build two natural gas power plants and call it renewable in the same sentence it makes no sense to me being able to credit another city with emissions when we sell to them still doesn't help us here in Denton when we 're breathing that air and I would be downwind from the East plant not using exor bitant amounts of water at the plant doesn't negate the exorbitant amounts of water being used to get the gas out of the ground in regards to safety Google searches easily provide instance after instance of gas plants catching fire blowing up in the evacuation zones being up to 10 miles around the plant that is a significant amount of people being displaced if one of these plants ign ites what is the greater risk to the neighboring homes and businesses blowing up if that gas point catches fire the cost this is a significant amount of debt to be strapped to for a very long time for a source of energy that is being left behind DME is still tied into debt of another fossil fuel plant we've heard about that do we really want to be strapped to two more fossil fuel plants well beyond their usefulness like Rhonda said before me I think a comprehensive health impact study should be done Texas is the leader of wind energy production in the USA yet there are additional wind farms in West Texas that remain off the grid because of politics ie the oil and gas industry stranglehold on Austin if we have these resources online then that would increase the true renewables that are available true renewable energy of wind and solar is the clear future the technology is advancing at record p aces costs are reducing at the same place new methods of storing the energy are being developed all the time and just one instance Tesla has a $3 ,500 residential battery storage unit to be able to store the energy on the local level and I think you guys were presented recently with a company that wants to help with the battery storage on a municipal level 191 countries at COP 21 took the initial steps to move away from fossil fuels think about that a hundred and ninety one company the countries are saying no to fossil fuels let didn't again be the leader in Texas to move away from these finite resources and do this and join so that this time without any concerns about litigation the oil and gas company can't come after us on this I agree with hiring an impart ial consultant looking at options other than fossil fuels I thank you for postp oning the vote on this issue and I ask you to please take these plants completely off the table thank you thank you any questions seeing none thank you Nick Ross please state your name and address and then dr. Ryan Ryan cliff is on deck honorable members of the City Council thank you for hearing us all tonight and for giving me time to speak before you my name is Nick Ross as you said what's your address my address is 10 0 5 West Hickory hold on I'm gonna see if I can adjust this I think it's fine all right my address is 10 0 5 West Hickory Street apartment w14 I live close to UNT Denton Texas 76201 I'm a PhD student in the UNT Department of Psychology I come here representing only myself this is my first time speaking before City Council this is pretty nerve-racking to say the least because I not quite sure how to conduct myself here but I come here because I find that what is on the table right now is a serious issue with with this and the stakes are dire we are facing a global this is a part of a global crisis as was mentioned earlier tonight just Saturday in the Paris talks on climate change 195 countries and communities are in agreement that climate change is a real thing I think it needs I think there's still doubt in the air within our own community and within our own legislature here in Denton Texas and as well like in the state there's still debate over whether or not climate change is a legitimate thing I think it and that really needs to be revisited and taken into consideration how much unanimous agreement there is within the scientific community of how like this is a serious real issue let's let's think locally for a second are like Lake Louisville the there was so much rain an unprecedented amount of rain I grew up here first of all I grew up here since I was six I was born abroad I was born in Brazil I lived all over the world I moved to Singapore for a year I moved to British Columbia in Canada for a year but I settled down in Denton Texas I grew up here since I was six I went to elementary middle school high school here I went to college elsewhere Masters elsewhere I came back here I considered Denton Texas my home are late in the time that I've grown up here I've never seen Lake Louisville become as high as it was with its water level trees were underwater I've never seen that before Houston was underwater earlier this year like there was a shark in the streets in Houston has that ever happened in any city as a result of the hurricane of mass proportions unprecedented proportions that happened that struck Houston earlier this year the Antarctic shelves are melting like parts of the Antarctic shelves are melting more than they ever had before I don't see how this there's any debate three tornadoes came through here in November and December like like one after another through the DFW area like I don't see how there can still be debate that climate change is not a real thing as such I think we need to think very carefully of what our priorities are I think it's Denton is powered 40% on renewable energy I thank you so much for that all of you who have made that possible there's a commitment to making Denton powered on 70% of of renewable energy I thank you for also moving in that direction there is a serious danger at hand of creating these power plants which depart from our mission of creating cleaner air a more sustainable living environment creating more sustainable energy not having water on fire water on fire in Fort Worth as a result of fracking plants we need to think very carefully of what we're doing here in our home thinking of future generations as well as been as has been mentioned earlier you all get the gist of what I'm trying to say thank you for listening to me we have a question yes member Odin this is climate talks in Paris keep coming up are you aware of any nation that made a commitment to go to 70% renewables in five years like what Denton is doing no sir and I think that we are setting a good standard in doing that I realized that this is a rare standard I think it should we should be the model of that the situation is urgent I agree thank you sir thank you all right dr. Ryan Cleff is up and then Brandon Morton sorry is Greg coming back should we wait or apparently not my name is Ryan Cleff 2500 West Oak I think the fact that Greg came and be bothered to be here really shows just how unprofessional this entire process has been the lack of transparency is appalling he was asking about how there's been no allegations of ethics violations well maybe if we had ethics reform maybe we we'd learn a little bit more about these land deals that are frankly a little questionable including the one for the the plant you want to build out by the airport I believe the suggestion was to pay five million dollars more than the land is worth that's a little weird you know it'd be nice if we had representative representative democracy in this town I haven't heard anybody in favor of the plants the only two people that are in favor of it were paid to be here and are you gonna represent the people or or just ignore it you're subsidizing gas stations that we don 't need your your bulldozing the Unitarian sacred orchard for some water plan it's it's ridiculous and and the the numbers from the DME frankly this was embarrassing but Keely politely you know said hey can you can you give me some more information they didn't bother they stood up here they they lied to you saying oh you know 75% reduction oh wait no it's actually gonna be 15% and then you know the part the Gibbons things not even gonna close you're still gonna be polluting Kevin's up here talking about oh 70% renewable that's not what you 're doing you're you're building power plants in an area that has f quality air that's I mean that's stupid and you're building a power plant by an airport that 24/7 they're training pilots over 20 years don't you think a plane's gonna crash I asked the airport people that they said yeah that's a really stupid place to build a power plant like that it's reckless the numbers on their graphs there ain't no sources on those numbers has anybody tried to verify that those numbers are even accurate does anybody know the model or the manufacturer for these generators are gonna build I haven't heard any details like that when you're gonna buy a motor wouldn't you know that my brother he he's a power plant engineer with a degree in mechanical engineering and mathematics his senior thesis was 50 pages 50 pages with numbers and equations and graphs the DME has given us a couple power points and a couple slides with no sources and inaccurate information I mean that's that's like f quality work can we can we have some standards here if you really want to build a power plant fine give us some actual data and information and stuff that can be verified and you haven't done that and it's been a while now and you've been asked and asked and still haven't done it so I think the request for an independent analysis is pretty damn well justified you need to get someone in here and say is this a good idea a quarter billion dollars doesn't even doesn't even doesn't have the time to listen you know the EPA gave me five minutes you can give me four minutes but okay you know all you're doing is you're building a power plant so you can sell the energy through the ERCOT and dump the pollution right here in Denton and we already have f quality error at some level you know we got it we got to decide priorities like do we want the cheapest like Walmart power that we can get or do we do we want to focus on quality of life and safety and what's healthy for the people and I guess my my closing point because I'm running out of time here is you know if this is such a great plan if this is gonna save so much money and it's so much cheaper then why why isn't it why aren't other cities doing this like why is anybody else looked at the DME's numbers and been like wow this is amazing we should we should get on this board with this program you know there's something wrong with those numbers and if you look a little closer I think there's gonna be more questions any questions thank you Brandon Morton and then Ben Huddush is up after that hi good evening my name is Brandon Morton my permanent address is at 827 Teakwood Richardson Texas I am NOT a citizen of Denton just to be clear I am an alumni of UNT I helped develop the sustainability program I did the baseline greenhouse gas inventory about five six years ago work with city staff I co-authored the wind turbine grant you might have seen some wind turbines on the football stadium but I'm here to represent the cross timbers group of Sierra Club we have 200 members mostly in Denton County and Collin County today I currently I'm this is full-time sustainability coordinator for North Lake College based in Irving Texas we're part of the Dallas County Community College District I'm also an adjunct biology professor I serve on several local and national boards including the statewide committee for Sierra Club the statewide committee for colleges and universities that practice sustainability and a 501 c6 trade association for sustainability practitioners which basically means if you do sustainability your job should be the same no matter who you work for in terms of some of my experience with renewable energy tracking greenhouse gas in the city of Denton although my debt my data experience is you know five six years old it seems to me that whether or not you're committed to 70% renewable energy which is really good you know you're you are still the leader in the entire United States when it comes to city renewable power plants but something to consider I think is the due diligence on the part of DME wind energy is dispatch able I think it's important to note that in the gentleman's PowerPoint from DME he consistently said that when energy is not dispatchable it actually is you can go to Minnesota they've been working on it since 2012 2013 you stored in batteries and then when the batteries are ready to go and you need that peak demand you just access the batteries and then you're you know you got your energy just like a power plant and so if then were to commit to battery storage y'all would be the largest power plant in the United States for battery storage and then once again you'd be a leader falling in line with renewable energy and not generating more greenhouse gases which is what we don't need so I very much support your commitment to 70% renewable energy I think you can probably do 100% renewable energy if you really kind of think about it and you know hold your feet to the fire in terms of where you're trying to go I'm also kind of curious as to how much research and development has been going on at the Munster wind farm I noticed in the DME PowerPoint that there was R&D that could be conducted at these new gas power plants and those that power plant the wind power plant in Munster has been up there for a while and so I'm curious if there's any been any dispatchable battery research done out there there's a lot of great universities in the DFW area although I am partial UNT it doesn't have to be UNT SMU's got a great engineering school there's all this R&D that could happen and so that's kind of my question to DME and the council in terms of delaying this conversation I think that's probably the best thing to do to just kind of wait a little bit explore the technologies a little bit get some third-party opinions and really kind of explore your best practices and what you what has worked and you know why can't you just double the capacity and install another wind farm and then be 80% renewables it seems like that's very practical and from a marketing perspective Mayor Watts you got the best last name for a mayor that's committed to renewable energy so that's a new one yeah that's a new one thank you but that's all I have five seconds on the shot clock any questions I do have one if you had and if you could maybe send it to the if you had this information if you're aware of battery storage technology that and at what scale it is because I know there's some there exists some for smaller scales but for utility scale you know when you're talking about 150 200 250 megawatts so if you have any of that information that'd be great if you could just pass that along yeah no problem okay thank you very much that brought up memories of the second grade when a guy gave me a Valentine's card with a light bulb on it with 75 watts and I'm responding a lot differently to that than I did that then I'm sorry it's late little levity Ben you're up and then Tyler Breckenridge will be on deck I'd be a little PowerPoint can I plug that in here sure okay there's been some indication that it may crash the system if we don't do it ahead time but you can try it if it does just go on with your presentation let's see yeah all right good name and address your time yeah my name is Ben Huttash I live at 925 Sierra Drive here in Denton and I prepared this presentation and I had a pretty drastic brain fart I was thinking that for some reason that the city could take advantage of of solar tax credits and apparently it doesn't work that way and maybe we need to fight for some direct subsidies so we can actually build some physical solar power but the point of what I'm talking about is I was I was trying to fumble over how battery technology this isn't quite there you know the afloat batteries are getting close but they're still priced out just a little bit and what could we do and so as I was as I said turn it upside down what if we tackled the the problem with the power purchase agreements where we have you know locked in rate for you know Austin has solar for $40 a megawatt but a lot of the day is you know in winter spent at I don't know 15 $20 a megawatt and you're losing losing money on those so what would happen if we built like an actual physical brick and mortar solar this chart I think is really interesting for a couple reasons if you can see my little mouse right here the the the solid line I'm looking at the AC watts here is is the the median it shows shows how the average prices are going down but this weighted average here that is leveled what that is is a really large solar project that is locked into prices from the the previous year because it took so long to build it that they got trapped in this high prices so an approach where you'd have multiple small projects would actually save you money as you can always keep up with the the newest and cheapest technology but also as of I guess a year and a half ago or a year ago there were some completed projects that blow two dollars a watt installed AC so the average was was a three point one dollars a watt AC and I was trying to figure out how to compare that to natural gas and I use some real fuzzy math here and I was thinking we're gonna build this 200 meg awatt power plant that's gonna run full blast sometimes not at all other times and if our estimate is 37 percent use out of it I just multiplied our 220 megawatt maximum by 37 percent and I got that we would effectively get 81.4 megawatts of generating capacity out of it considering this downtime and I figured out what the price for megawatt is so I could compare it to what the three point one watt AC solar would be based off of the AC inverter nameplate that's not a completely fair comparison but it's as close as I could figure out how to do so long story short we got two dollars and seventy cents a watt by my estimates of building these power plants and it's not that far off from what solar would be if we could have direct subsidies on it and I'm doing on time so that the pros of solar I think is we could be more competitive or maybe just as competitive as a natural gas plant if we had a physically you know solar farm here you know say 160 acres or something like that it'd be pretty sweet and we could get prices that were cheaper than the power purchase agreement I believe because a lot of the power purchase agreements in the state are five and six watts I think we're coming for below so final thought is I just want to see some stuff going forward and and and I wanted to to get some models built by somebody that that maybe showed us what what the implications of 100 % solar immediately 100% solar if we waited to buy good things 100% solar or 100% renewable if we had had some actually built something and sorry I'm out of time thank you thank you thank you very much all right the next speaker will be Tyler Breckenridge and then on deck will be Willie Hutzpeth state your name and address your time will begin Tyler Breckenridge 516 Boule vard Street I'm gonna be looking at my phone a lot so that I don't mix mess up my words here greetings and salutations council members I'm a fourth year student at UNT my hobbies include eating good food drinking clean water and breathing clean air Denton supplies two of these things in abundance and pr ides itself in doing so but fails abysmal abysmally at providing the remainder I 'm referring of course to the quality of our air which has earned the American Lung Association grade of F as many before me have repeated tonight unfortunately I'm aware that there's not much that we can do to deal with it because most of the pollution drifts our way from the neighboring DFW area but constructing two natural gas power plants which Denton municipal electric projects will add seven hundred twelve thousand tons of co2 to our atmosphere annually for the next 20 years is certainly not much of a solution there's an age-old adage which states if you find yourself in a hole stop digging increasing our city's renewable energy sourcing is extremely important I don't think anyone here is interested in arguing that point however I would like to offer a more literal interpretation to the saying by adding that in the wake of the recent climate talks held in Paris it is clear that we can no longer afford to dump untold amounts of greenhouse gases into our atmosphere the first step in reigning this process in is to stop digging up hydrocarbon fuel sources in the name of development and to start pursuing alternative options at breakneck speed costly as they may be the financial prices paid in the name of fixing this problem are not what history will remember history will take much greater notice of the ecological environmental and humanitarian costs paid by our species and our planet as a result of our inaction so I employ each and every one of you to take these implications into consideration as you deliberate whether or not to set down our city shovel thank you okay any questions thank you thank you very much mr. Hushbuth and then on deck will be Adam Brighill 23 Newton mayor and council when we were sure which way I would go on this one but after listening to the different presentations I do have it an idea and I thought and I'm learning as I go through these many many City Council meetings and the others is that part of the American dream and what I fought for in Vietnam is to just have the right to say it and nowadays not be beaten and flogged and locked in a cage I can just oh I got off track that's what my wife does but that's another anyway so too much information so I 'm gonna give my thought I remember hearing these same arguments that's what comes with age you go through things and you can keep records in your mind those of us who still can do that and I'm kind of losing mine a little bit but I remember the arguments that were given when we were when we got in the into the hole that we're in now with our energy situation the exact same arguments from this standpoint I didn't really understand the technical arguments I didn't know it just sounded like it wasn't the thing to do and now we're in the hole and I now remember siding with the citizens then saying doesn't sound like we ought to do that it's too much of a cost one of the arguments and what was presented and I guess why we some of us just went ahead and settled with it is it's not my money they're not taking it out of my pocket and doing something with it how far from the truth could that have been it is my money I have to pay those taxes in January I've got to pay pay them again and it is my money here's my suggestion come from someone who doesn't understand what the first presenter was talking about the one who was trying to sell us on this thing to do that it's the right thing to have the two plants and then hearing the citizens say it's gonna pollute the air it's gonna cost too much I love that the state that the last presenter said if you find yourself digging digging a hole that whatever that you're in basically stop digging so I guess that means don 't do this how about let's just wait then I talked to some of the other people in the audience nice and it was shared with me that why don't we find out from someone who has a technical ability to research or who has already researched and give us some input in this right now we just have I heard and all of this might not be true that we've been getting given advice from someone who's with in the oil and gas why wouldn't you why would that be your person to give you the expertise in trying to debate which way to go so here's my recommendation wait get some expertise from someone who doesn't have a horse in the race someone who has expertise to look at both and then give you some information about that that's what I would recommend we do thank you thank you Adam Br iggle and then Corey Troyani all right thank you my name is Adam Briggle 1315 Dartmouth place appreciate you all being up I've been taking notes throughout the night and I try not to repeat too much but just emphasize what I think is important so I really have three main points the first is I met Devon Taylor and I met with DME and as you know things I've written publicly I have doubts about this plan and questions about it and if some of those maybe many of those questions have been answered and I'm really grateful to DME and members of council for kind of helping us all think this through and I may be alone tonight and being somebody who's actually warming to this plan over the course of the last couple of months but I still have a lot of questions about it and concerns maybe three main ones at this point one is certainly the local emissions that we're talking about I'm worried about that and I wonder if the moral framing of this it sounds like a utilitarian case study that are we talking about increased local emissions in the service of overall reduced emissions and so are we talking about some sort of moral weighting here where we think we're going to bear some more of the emissions because it's in the service of reducing our overall imprint on the environment I don't know how to think through that one but it does it does worry me the other one like I wrote in my op-ed with Devon is I think it's just a risk and I don't know how to how to quantify it's a risky decision could we be at the cusp of a renewable breakthrough especially with storage where if we build this thing and then we turn around and just a couple years later it really it looked like the wrong decision to make again I don't know how to how to weigh that right I just I don't think you can take that kind of risk out of a big decision like this my other one though and this might be a game-changer it's only something I've come across in the last couple of days is I'd like to emphasize what dr. Sof said about the greenhouse gas inventory it'd be really great if you could in addition to the socks and the knocks in the particular matter emissions give us a look at what methane and co2 would be comparative on these plans with status quo and the reason I say that is as I think councilmember rodin said tonight and I'd like clarification on this that we're actually looking at 37% reduction in our gas usage or something is it you're nodding me maybe we can talk about that I don't know why you're not screaming that louder because that seemed to address a lot of the concerns here and to me the the enigma is slide 11 on the PowerPoint presentation from mr. Williams at DME which says we're actually not going to increase our use of gas at all and I've had Brian Daskeman DME try to walk me through this but I'd really like to see somebody write that out and sort of an argument I think it's hard for people to grasp I think what he's saying is don't think of building these plants like putting a new driver on the roads like a new driver is going to consume an extra tank of gas in addition to all the gas being consumed already think of these as building a new gas station where you're going to just have the same amount of gas being sold but this new gas station if it's more efficient say or something right this is a bad analogy but it's something like this right that that isn't going to increase the total amount of gas being sold I think that's what's trying to be got across and I think that's really hard at least for me to understand so I guess I'd like to hear that argument reprised in some some care and detail because that to me would answer a lot of my questions if we're actually not pulling more methane out of the ground to do this at the end of the day then that would address a lot of the folks concerns about climate change impacts the last thing I wanted to say is I'm wondering if if this goes forward whether it couldn't be in conjunction with an ordinance that says something like by 2030 will be a hundred percent renewable in the city of Denton so that and then we're going to shut down these gas plants or sell them off and no longer be attached to them once they're paid off and maybe we could also put some community solar project out at that site so just my thoughts any questions thank you thank you dr. Bruegel who did I'm oh Cory the core yeah Cory and then on deck will be Deborah armator howdy I'm Cory try on a good job pronouncing that thanks very much I live at 55 16 Richard Avenue in Dallas Texas I'm no longer a Denton resident but I lived here for about four years attended college I'm a UNT alumni as well partly I'm here speaking on behalf of my brother who has respiratory issues and is currently residing outside of Denton working on a health care plan that he can get himself signed up so he can breathe the air here and afford it I mainly I just want to echo the concerns of a lot of citizens here in the city of Denton that there just hasn't been enough due diligence to do independent studies on constructing two brand-new natural gas power plants I want to start off by just saying that 40% renewable is fantastic that didn't already at and moving towards 70% as from you keep on repeating is really phenomenal and really unprecedented here in this part of Texas but I I encourage you all to really listen to why the citizens are here and not just repeat the talking point that we're moving towards more renewable energy but really look at the whole package and why people are so upset which is that we 're investing a long-term investment in natural gas and power plants don't just get built and then power down I mean look at Gibbons Creek we're talking about half a century commitment here with these new gas plants so is that really what Denton wants to do I think that people here are concerned with deals that are happening behind closed doors studies that are happening with a certain set of experts but not with another set of experts who might be looking at this from another angle it's my understanding that the city has until September of 2016 to divest from Gibbons coal plant so you actually have quite a bit of time to think this thing through and really get a good plan in place and consider 100% renewable plan so I encourage you all to take the time and really research this thing before you invest in such a long-term commitment I think that it's really important to consider that during these peak times where you want to turn on these gas plants in theory that we could put forth some other ideas like conservation for instance you can encourage citizens to conserve energy during the summer months the fact that Denton allows free inspections of homes you could advertise that better and inspect homes make sure that there aren't leaks happening I lived in a very inefficient house when I was living here for a couple of years and we could have made some serious updates it's about a hundred years old so conservation is one thing another thing is energy storage technology I mean there's been a few people who've mentioned batteries where is the expert who is dealing with storage that's consulting Denton do you have an expert that is concerned mainly with just battery storage batteries are really the future of the energy of this planet it's one of the fastest growing technologies not only batteries but super capacitors so definitely consult more experts look at battery storage technology and I mean I think the point here is that we don't need to jump into investing in brand new gas plants before we've done the research and remember that Denton is a really unique place where citizens get really engaged in politics I mean we just had a vote here 60/40 to overturn fracking in the city limits to build plants that are powered by fracked gas goes against your constituents and they vote you into the seats that you're sitting in right now we already know that Myra Cronover who voted for House Bill 40 took away the ban she's abandoned her seat one of the railroad one of the three railroad commissioners just abandoned their seat so really consider that if you want to stay on this council that you really need to support what the citizens here think is right and I definitely respect that y'all will make the right decision thank you you man any questions thank you very much appreciate it thank you for coming down Debra and then up will be James is it Moffitt or yeah sorry yes go ahead name and address please Deborah Armantar excuse me a 2003 Misty wood Lane I wanted to begin by thanking all of you for that that wonderful Christmas gift you might not have thought of it that way but repealing the gag rule was really a tremendous gift to the citizens and and I'm trying not to get all choked I will already I'm choked up thinking about it I don't know if you even realize what a historic event that was and how appropriate that was to repeal the gag law at the very meeting in which we are now allowed for the first time to address you to speak to you about our feelings about these new gas wells being proposed at a public hearing so I have a gift in return for you in addition to the the flowers that I promised all of you and I anyway and and it's not I don't know how you'll take this gift and actually it's it's up to you whether you want to accept this this gift that is it's your option entirely and this gift is it's something called a sign on sign on letter which which means it's it's you know like these letters if you've ever written a letter for Amnesty International where there's you know where there's a template and you just you copy the letter and you sign your name to it I'm not demanding that you sign this I'm just saying if you support the claims in this letter then I would encourage you to sign your name to it and and I would love to to to meet with each of you I would be happy to to answer whatever questions that you have this is something that that a number of citizens came up with on our own we're not we don't have a group name or anything so I'll read the sign on letter we'll see how far I get in my two minutes left dear citizen owners of DME as a public official elected to serve the city of Denton I appreciate the good intentions and hard work behind DME's plan to increase renewable energy in our city and divest from coal at the same time however I recognize the legitimacy of a number of my constituents concerns about the long-term wisdom of investing 225 plus million to build two new gas plants at a time when even oil and gas industry advocates admit that the natural gas industry is on a steady and unstoppable decline and that renewable storage technology is unstoppable on the rise experts on all sides of the issue agree that it is not a matter of if but when steadily improving battery storage technology will meet our city's peak energy needs of 350 megawatts per hour and this is something that even Phil Williams of DME in the work session attested to today even in the demanding summer months by which point we will be able to store all the wind and solar power we need without natural gas backup I'm gonna skip over a little bit which you'll definitely want to read it before you consider signing anything like this if a renewable denton is what we truly desire then good business sense tells us it's worth waiting on an investment of the size until the technology of the near and inevitable future meets our three Rs of renew ability reasonable rates and reliability rather than investing in fossil fuel technology which even in its newest quick start forms has had its fate sealed by the recent Paris agreements as the way of the past I therefore resolved to make or second a motion and then vote yes to delay the vote until after City Council has appointed and received results from a committee of renewable energy experts approved by the two members of City Council who have publicly expressed their support of this idea and perhaps one other council member open to this possibility energy consultants can I continue for a little bit it's just briefly I know we want a copy of it for sure yeah I'll give I'll give you a copy and thank you by the way for staying up so late where you know we're staying up with you but anyway we don't we don't it's the burden to look alert is not so much on us as it is on you so we we all really appreciate it and we forgive you for you know moment you know whatever momentary lapses we 're not judging anyway it talks here about a committee of scientists this is something that a number of us believe in that committee should be made up of independent renewable energy and storage experts of people who have no ties to industry including no ties to renewable industry we don't want anybody on such a committee who's gonna make a profit off of it anyway and also a vote okay all right all right thank you any questions thank you very and thank you for staying up with us yes thank you we have James Moffat and then Don murky yes I'm James Moffat 5050 Brook Drive Louisville Texas I'm here representing myself and my progeny and all living things that I care about and first of all I'd like to comment on this first time I've been at your council meetings but you really have a professional job here I'm really impressed with the presentation and the people that you have here too that are all participating I'm really I'm mind is boggled by how much activity you have going the second thing is I'm proud of Denton for having done the fracking passed the fracking bill no frack and and I have an opportunity to travel around the country I'm a climate advocate and I travel around the country putting on presentations and I'm proud to be able to say I live in Denton County and this is where it's happening and I think it would be even more wonderful if I could say you guys were a hundred percent renewable energy that would be wonderful I know that 40% is great my home state is Iowa they're currently 28% by 2018 they expect to be 40% for the entire state which is a pretty reasonable thing for a state to do but likewise I'd like to see that there aren't any barriers for you artificial barriers to say we can't be a hundred percent and I hear a lot of people giving ideas that you should be moving and looking at these things I do want to refer to back a lot of things have been said I want to emphasize something that somebody said really early this morning the importance about project management I'm my background is chemical engineering I was in petroleum and petrochemical research I've been a independent consultant for the last 24 years of my work before I retired and and I've been involved with lots of different organizations but project management was key to all of them and and this is the thing that keeps from making mistakes somebody has to take responsibility to look at all the aspects of it a safety liability the economics and it has to be in detail because when the risk is great as it is in this case both from the climate aspect of it as well as the economics of it and as you two wonderful things happen well two things happen cop 21 and there's a pretty much agreement that there's going to be a carbon fee attached a lot of countries have already and even businesses here in the United States have accepted that there's going to be a carbon fee or tax with dividend to take care of the externalities of fossil fuel and the emissions that they contribute so the probability is that the price on fossil fuels will be going up and that's something that you can almost count on because everybody seems to be an agreement in that okay and anyway and the the fact is that the as it has been said about the battery storage all the alternatives these things are changing rapidly and I don't know y'all are too young maybe to remember future shock where we're all aware of change but we're not necessarily aware of the increase in the rate of change that's taking place so rapidly and as we've seen with the price of solar coming down when going up rapidly so anyway thank you for the opportunity to talk here and thank you mr. murky don murky 2005 holly hell then excuse me long time didn't resident I want to commend DME on their plan so far everything's been said tonight for the most part by everybody else one thing hasn't been mentioned I didn't remember TCQ has grants available for alternative energy storage I suggested and we've been talking about battery storage possible we can set up a section of the town TCQ would pay half I think is what they would do and we could test it and see how it works Tesla does not have the batteries yet they will it's a matter of time we could put batteries in every the 45,000 homes in this town we'd never be without power we could use the meters that somehow turn off the different houses and then we could distribute the electricity where we needed it when we needed it we never have to use the plants the future is going to be in storage not in production and that's a big thing that we need to look at this is for the future it's not going back to an old technology and that's pretty much it so thanks for staying light thank you that I've got cards who wishing not to speak there were 37 in opposition to in support but this is a public hearing so anyone that wishes to speak please come down and state your name and address if you haven't spoken or if you yeah that's you know come on down there was somebody behind you and then after then you bet you just state your name and address and your time will begin Eric Perot 21 11 Westwood thank you for being here night owl council members so I've heard lots of things and I'm thankful for all the my fellow residents being here I'm one of the strange people who voted for the the ban on fracking and I'm also in favor of the renewable dentin plan so I really just want to focus on two points that I think may so far tonight have been clouded or over overrun by some other things just to make sure that the council considers these as you continue to look your deliberations and they really both have to do with the issue of stewardship that we've heard so much about the first one is stewardship of your financial resources right so just I would implore you to not forget that the current available negotiated rates that DME is modeling are not guaranteed to continue they could go up and at the same time the as as the gentleman from DME mentioned interest rates are not fixed in fact the federal open market committee met today and continues and concludes tomorrow and they may very well go up so please keep that in mind secondly on the other issue of stewardship I can't help but feel that the disagreements and confusions that individuals in the community have when they speak to each other on this topic stem from a a difference in opinion on how to account for the emissions of the power that you are using right so the the general way to account for that which DME has used in their modeling is to account for it by the the power that you are purchasing right others have suggested that you should account for that by the power plants that you are supporting being built for instance I I don't know if there are other strange people like me but technically I think you should account for it on where the power came from that you're actually using right now and that has some interesting implications because even if we were 100% renewable by all objective measures of the first definition we would in fact be using power that was generated by non renewable sources so just keep that in mind and also know that the that conflict between people understanding each other in that issue is also nationwide and and utility wide in fact there have been some recent reports on the German plan to raise their renewable energy production from 25% up to 80% and it turns out that the electric grids that they're tied to in the rest of Europe are having a difficult time basically serving enough capacity to Germany when they're not when when Germany has an excess need and then taking the excess capacity when Germany is generating more than what they can use so thank you for your time thank you yes you bet come on up and say your name and address your time will begin my name is Sam Alexander 32 19 McReynolds Road Sanger Texas and I will live very close to this proposed power plant that's up on 428 and Shippard Road so I do feel like I have some input on this thing you know it's funny you know we're discussing spending 225 million dollars on this power plant and then you have to look you know you kind of look back at history so DME had a power plant on Spencer Road as we all know I never can find out how much that cost to build that original plant but I do know what that plant eventually sold for it sold to PAG&E along with the hydroelectric out at Lake Louisville for 12 million dollars is all that thing sold for the property the power plant everything 12 million dollars two years later the city of Garland bought that power plant and the hydroelectric at Lake Louisville for 2 million dollars so now when we go 20 years from now which you know I probably won't be here and I don't know how many others will be here but in 20 years ago our kids will be here how much is that power plant going to sell for $50 I mean you know it's ridiculous how much these things have gone down look at the Gibbons Creek Lord only knows how much that thing cost to build and now you're still in debt for 150 million dollars and you're trying to bail out on that thing just you're trying to run from that thing and still pay 150 million dollars for it so I mean I think you need to look at the history of these things and here all these people have talked about the new battery storage things and new things coming along I think you really need to step back and look at this stuff and then also that you know I hear Phil get up and talk about all you know all the money you're going to save how much you waste every day by not doing this thing blah blah blah how are the citizens of this town supposed to know how much this thing is either profitable or not profitable because you cannot do an open record in this city and find out a stinking thing about these rates how much you guys are charging where it's coming from everything's a big secret I've tried to do open records and I get this stuff back while you attorney general ruling it's confidential so you can't get anything so how is a citizen in this town supposed to know if this thing is a profitable thing or not profitable thing after five year period there's no way of knowing Phil can stand up here all day and say oh you're making tons of money everything's great these people can't do an open record to find out if that's truth or not because everything is hidden in this town with DME I have to do open records through DME quite a bit I get stalled I get put out I get the Attorney General crap all the time I can contact the city of Garland and I've spoken with some of these council members about this I've done an open record with the city of Garland I've got the answer the next day not once but twice I have yet in all the years that I've been dealing with this city have I ever ever ever got an open record back the next day never and my time's just about up the big thing about this is these people in this town own this electric company you people sitting up there on this council do not own DME the citizens of this town own DME it's in the city charter look it up these people need to be voting on this thing to spend 225 million dollars of their rate money and their tax money not seven people up here the people that's going to pay for this need to be voting on this not you seven people thank you this is a public hearing anybody else wish to speak come down and state your name and address please hello my name is James Arnstein I live at 1802 Rocky Creek Drive in Duncanville Texas I'm here speaking as a volunteer solar advocate and I have a background as electronics engineer first of all I'd like to thank you and DME for this hearing and for your other considerations and recognize that you are nationally recognized leaders as a municipal electric utility both for reliability and for renewables and I'm not here to tell the people of Denton what to do but I would like to respond there was a slide presented at the work session this afternoon which showed some of the disadvantages of battery storage technology and my point is that investment now and these gas power generators is going to reduce your ability to invest in other things in the future and it's not saying that the battery technology is viable now but I think it would be better if you love some room for investing in things that may be viable in in five years say I sent an email this morning suggesting that there are some other things that you may want to consider one of the when you're doing your generation plan one of these is putting in some specific goals for local solar power generation another one is putting in some specific goals for what's being called smart grid demand reduction strategies another thing is looking at further RFQs and RFPs for storage technology solutions as suggested by Councilperson Briggs on her district 2 website and as references that you may or may not want to look at the city of San Antonio is working with a company called power fan on a program they're calling solar host which is basically a utility sponsored rooftop solar leasing program city of San Antonio is working with a company called clean energy collective which is working nationwide on different things but in this case it's a program they're calling the roofless solar and what that basically is it's a community solar installation which is a ownership based model the Austin Energy has changed their historic policy to now allow companies like solar city to come in and offer rooftop solar not as a what they call a solar lease which is really a PPA for residents which is really selling electricity which they don't allow but as a equipment lease it's a different form of a leasing contract and then the other thing is just nearby co-serve has set up what they're calling a solar station which is really a pilot program that it's also a community solar project but it's a rate-based model not a ownership model so again I'd like to thank you we got a question Councilmember Hawkins yeah thank you I'm sorry I didn't catch the company I was trying to write these down with San Antonio that you mentioned I sent an email earlier this morning I can send it again rather than but there were two that San Antonio's got two programs and it was in the news recently because they actually completed their first of the what they're calling the solar host installations and the other one is they're calling day of emails it's tough so oh yeah I understand that's why I decided to talk I originally just filled out thank you thank you thank you anybody else wishing to speak please come down and then we 'll catch you in the back after this one you bet state your name and address and your time will begin good evening or good morning my name is Terrence Parker and I live at 419 Fulton and I guess I didn't really think I wasn't have anything to say because I pretty much agree with everything everyone has said so far and their concerns for this but I did want to emphasize that while I think it's really awesome that we have the 70% renewal at the end of the day the main issue is that we're not actually taking anything out of the air that we're breathing in immediately and I know that it's Texas and Texas is always optimistic but there are tipping points for any area I mean it's just some of the things to think about we have f air quality even if it's not our fault we have earthquakes that are happening more frequently we also now have this report of this dam south of Lake Louisville that's now a major risk there are eventually things that can make an area look bad and I don 't deny it I'm from Louisiana so I have no doubt that probably an area like DFW could probably get its damn fixed better than what happened with the levee system in New Orleans but it's important to remember that New Orleans happened it's important to remember that California is happening areas can get so bad that you hurt your future potential I didn't hear anybody really speak to when earlier the person was talking about how even if none of those bad things happen if our air stays this bad new businesses may not want to do business here because it'll be more expensive for them on the federal level that's a problem so are we now sacrificing future growth potential under industries in order to have two plants and so those are concerns like we seem to be taking from our future to just do something temporary thank you thank you in the back come on down state your name and address your time will begin hi my name is Eric Hutmacher and I live at 1015 Bolivar I was searching on my phone and there is a city that does a hundred percent renewable it's Georgetown Texas and let's see hang on they did it because it was more economically feasible they were kind of spooked by the market of oil and natural gas so my idea was I wasn't planning on speaking today but I can give them a call and kind of just see maybe who a contact person might be to I don't know see why they did it maybe some more specifics maybe they actually did some research on their particular situation that way I can pass that along and kind of you know we're all in this together and teamwork makes the dream work kind of thing and you know we can hopefully try to get that information out in the open and maybe they'll be willing to share the other thing I was going to think about was during the summer we do have health concern which is the ozone alerts that we get and heat kills a lot more people in Texas than anything as opposed to floods tornadoes lightning things like that the contributor to that is ozone and you have something called a heat island effect and there's a bunch of particulars and whatnot but something to consider is the summer months it gets hot and the air caught electrical grid does suffer a heavy load and they do call up whomever to pitch in to if Corpus Christi San Antonio needs energy something to consider on a red ozone level day so thank you . We have a question Mayor Pro Tem. We we have heard a lot of information about Georgetown oh and I was wondering if you were aware that their rates according to who you're hearing from or anywhere from 40 to 50 percent higher their electric rates than the rates in Denton would be under the Denton renewable plan. Okay I'll look into that and I'll pass that along. Okay thanks. Thank you. Councilmember Briggs have one more question. Councilmember Briggs. I actually did reach out to Georgetown and talked to Mr. Briggs who ironically has the same last name no relation anyway and I can get with you and I can discuss our conversation. Okay sure. Thank you. Okay this is a public hearing anybody else wishing to speak? Let's all rush down. Anybody else wishing to speak? Okay we will now close the public hearing and before we for those of you that are left there were a lot more of you here when we started I really do appreciate the decorum and the council chambers tonight and the the respect that most of you showed and the respect that we showed so I really do appreciate that I mean that sincerely. Councilmember Gregory. I'm making a motion to postpone the resolution and I was going to do it to a date certain but I'm not sure that that's appropriate at this time I think just to postpone and what with directions to staff that when we are ready to consider the resolution to make sure that we either separate out in a different section of the resolution or in a different resolution all together our goal of becoming 100% renewable by 2030 that was embedded in this resolution but it was situated in such a way that it it was hard for folks to even notice so that's my motion. We've got a couple of speakers before I recognize the second that's okay Councilmember Hawkins. Councilmember Briggs. I wanted to point out that we had over 13 people tonight suggest that we have another an independent study done and and it was all the way from an expert on battery technology a health impact study a renewables only study a rate structure study a demand side management or an efficiency study and I think these are all valid valid things that I don't really know too much about and I would like to know more and so I'm just curious how how to get that if that's now or something for for later that we talk about. Okay let's hold that and as we hear from the other speakers and then we can we can talk about that but we will certainly address that. Yes Councilmember Wasney. Well I brought forward to council in a work session that we needed an independent analyst so I just want to do a shout out to our citizens who backed me up on that because we do need an independent analyst to come in here and advise us to make the best decisions we can and the worst decision we can make is to be in a hurry so I don't know how all of this works we're heading to Christmas break but when we come back in January I would implore this council to seriously consider what other council members are asking and what certainly our citizens are asking and that is to get some outside independent third-party analysis of this plan before we ever take a vote on it or a vote on a resolution. Okay Council member Rodin. I would suggest I guess we're all suggesting some paths forward here I think after the break I think we need to have another work session and I think we're kind of at the point where we've had significant public input from the start since October. Tonight's been great and thanks for everyone who contributed but there's got to be a point in which council gets to the point of saying what questions are left to be answered from our perspective that work because that was the challenge I made if we get to this point at the end of this night and there are still questions left unanswered that are unanswer able by our current set of experts that that would be a point which I would be comfortable with getting outside help. I don't think we're at that point to be honest given the questions I've heard and what's left on the table but I think we need to have that conversation and hash that out as a council and my suggestion is at the end of that we'd be prepared to give direction to staff to say here's where we think we need to chart this thing out one way or the other but I think we're due for that sort of council discussion now that we've had this evening. Mayor Pro Tem. Thank you Mayor. Just a couple of questions you know as as I've been getting over the last two months lots and lots of emails from citizens with various questions about have you considered this have you looked at that what about battery storage here what about this approach or that approach we forwarded I have forwarded and I know other council members to have those questions on to staff and we've gotten answers back along the way a lot of them showed up in a white paper that we're looking at all of the options a couple of more questions have come up from the conversations this evening that I would just like to ask staff to do not ruin your Christmas vacation on this we'll have some time to work on this but a couple of different people have referred to gas plants electrical generation plants using gas as very dangerous that they are prone to explosions and so I'd like to get a little bit of information back from from staff on nationwide what kind of failure rate what kind of explosion rate those kinds of things that are that are associated with the generation of electricity through natural gas I would like to get some more information about the the arrangement that Austin Energy is doing with Solar City a plan that allows them to do some so that the citizens are not necessarily investing them their own money if they don't have the upfront money I know that there are some ways that may not work but if there are some ways that might work I think that's something to explore also those are the questions that have come to my mind as a direct result of the conversations tonight okay councilmember Hawkins thank you mayor - I don 't need this tomorrow I'll be fried tomorrow but I've asked a couple times when ERCOT wants us to turn on the gas-fired plant how that works kind of more in detail just to really understand that and how that works if we have a more efficient plant how that takes one that's not as efficient or runs dirty or a little bit offline I just want to understand that a little bit more so thanks okay councilmember Briggs want to come back to your question because I think it was echoed by councilmember Wasney and I think sort of referenced also by councilmember Roden in that obviously this conversation is not over we're going to have a work session or two or whatever whatever the council direction is starting in January so I think that question will be part of that discussion go ahead yes I thought I just heard councilman Roden say he said that he wanted to give direction at our next work session in January so I didn't know if if the ideas for consultants could be brought back up at that point or sure well I mean obviously councilmember Roden understands that his preference is his preference and depending on the rest of the council that that direction may be in concert with his or it may be different so I think those things are still on the table I mean obviously no disrespect to councilmember Roden he understands he understands what I'm saying so absolutely yeah that's those those things are still as far as I know nothing's been taken off the table and whatever the preference is of the council members whether it's the next work session or if we have to have another one it's that's going to be something decided by this body as a whole okay we had a motion by mayor pro Tim and now we'll recognize the second by councilmember Haw kins I'm sorry go ahead councilmember Hawkins he hadn't said it yet I second okay thank you and that is a motion to postpone action on the resolution action on the resolution and I'm assuming implicit in that is that we understand we 're gonna staff is gonna be scheduling another work session for this both an open and closed okay we have a motion on the floor let's vote on the board please motion carries unanimously again I want to thank everybody for being here tonight and your input thank you very much all right we've got another we've got presentation by the public let me get to the agenda item I don't want to skip it again let's see here public hearings present okay here we go all right it's agenda item number seven and the caption is presentation from members of the public mr. Willie Hutzpah states your name and address and your time will begin I'm Willie Hutzpah I live at 623 Newton mayor and council members I'm talking about first place you put citizens who come up here and talk different times you have the option to have them speak last and so I'm choosing to speak last to say that that's not good if if your motive your objective is to hear from citizens and you sign on for that job that's what this job is about speaking and representing speaking for and representing the citizens and you listen to the citizens well then why do you put us at the end those of us who speak to you you should change that it's only those that we agree to with and we like we'll let them speak early those that we don't like and we don't agree with we're gonna put them at the end so that's really what you're doing I think I added something new to my list now how in the world can the electric department withhold information about something that we owe we're that's going to be added to what I start looking at in my team team of one that is now grown to five after tonight but that's another issue let me talk about what I know now blacks cannot be funeralized or buried at IWF something 's wrong with that mr. councilmember Johnson should be here I am not going to let my taxes go I'm just talking in rhetoric because I can't do anything about it I'm just upset I'm paying I'm putting in taxes so that the city can use my money to keep blacks from being buried at IWF what kind of nonsense is that no you take you you need to stop that here's what I figured let's just give I'm gonna give you an estimation I've been here since 1970 I subtracted that from this time now let's or to this present day and that's 45 years I've been here let's say five of my dollars every year goes to take care of our double a I double F I am spending 225 dollars to keep my people from being buried in that cemetery that's crazy I'm saying give me my money back stop paying the bills I don't know what we pay for that but that's crazy we need to stop that I'm gonna keep talking about that do we fix that ethics let me tell you no one on this board should be voting on anything that's going to profit them that's criminal the statement was made by councilperson that no one's complained well just give me time till I get all my information in and someone's going to be complaining that one will be taken care of as far as the complaint poor mr. acres I notice how quickly you jumped on all thank you for recognizing that we've done this and thank you for being so kind look did you hear them say they have to work on Thanksgiving they worked all night they worked in the rain hogwash don't don't think for a moment that they're saying thank you for putting us through that hardship I wish that he had said what he said to me thirty thousand dollars and they gave him three days to get that thing fixed three days and the man's over 70 years old he's being here forever I well one good thing I should say at least you change some of that but you shouldn't do people like that I've experienced that in my little business up up there on Bonnie Bray and oak but at least well I have to admit councilman gear Gregory and was he and Briggs came by and the city manager so I guess I need to just stop fuss ing about that but anyway so those are my issues black people being buried at I double-edged the ethics you can't be making money out the city council and you own the city council or you are why you own the city council and we did mr. acres and I'll be back next time we have a question question mayor mayor pro tem oh yeah it's I'm already way past my bedtime it doesn't matter anymore have you have you tried to get a burial plot in the I double-o-f some I'm going to I'm gonna do whatever I need to do well have you tried no no do you know of anyone who has tried and has been denied no I'd like to get a report from staff if we have denied anyone on the basis of race religion or just ask this or color an african-american buried there it won I'm like that's my question okay good you're gonna find out and and and we're all we've already asked for some other research to be done so so just make sure to add that to the list okay well you're all right well see late night Willie yeah you know and by the way here's another question you do know that we we have the the counts of citizen reports at the beginning followed by four places right for for citizen comments and we only had two so you do know that you could have taken one of those spots right so now the question I guess is why don't I don't I because you have the right to put me at the end if you so choose no you have a right to wait to the end if you so choose and use right still have the right to put me at the end if there's too many if there's too many yeah so that's the one I'm fighting okay okay all right any other questions thank you sir appreciate that oh yes member Briggs is this for concluding items okay well we're now on concluding items so I wanted to read an email that I got in regards to the renewable plan that AES storage batteries are going to call utility and the mayor and ask basically that they can be allowed to compete against the reciprocating engines and it made me start thinking we haven't put out anything an RFQ RFI for anything but engines like why can we not put out an RFP to say any quick start generation or battery or firm who can come up with a solution to our problem I mean so it was just kind of like whoa I mean we're being very specific here if we open it up to include other people to compete you know there's no telling what we might get so that's that okay yeah and I did I did receive your email and at least to my knowledge I haven't been called yet but I'm sure I will be yeah councilmember Haw kins yeah well I also wanted to see if I could get if we could get a staff report on what is in the base rate charge for like when 9-1-1 is called in the fire department brings an ambulance and the ambulance I know that we've had they tell us we've had reports on that but I really want to know what the base rate what is included in that rate specifically I don't really want to know anything else because I've gotten some letters and I think we have that some people's insurance do not pay that and so that has to come out of pocket and we're talking about wanting to take care of our citizens with affordable rates and this is an eight hundred and fifty five dollar charge it's pretty pretty out there so I just kind of want to know more about that okay great councilmember Hawkins sort of rolled off no thank you um this sidewalk along McKinney issue you know we got to be able to just get a path I mean quickly here can we get an informal staff report on that and just kind of suck it up and just get that done and then two I don't think community improvement services is doing anything wrong but I've had a number of small businesses say that they've either got a notice or something about their best of Denton banner so here it is a local business in town who wins an award for being you know a great business in town we give them an award they want to display it and then we come around afterwards and tell them to take it down and I don't think anybody's not following the rules but I just want us to really look at that and is that the kind of message we want to be sending to these businesses can we get an informal staff report or can we get them to just stop doing that just for a little bit as we figure this out but I mean no it's not but it just it just came up a few times again even the last couple weeks and I understand if it's hung crooked or in an ugly manner but come on so that's it Merry Christmas. Councilmember Oden. A lot of news play on this Lewisville dam situation the last few days and given that it affects our water supply I mean I I don't know how much to buy into the media hype surrounding this issue versus what is the real concrete concern but just some sort of report as it relates to what concerns the city has on this thank you. Yeah after I read that article I think I sent everybody an email about five o' clock in the morning as I woke up immediately after reading that. Okay anyone else? Okay seeing none then we will adjourn thank you. you