Nov 17, 2015 City Council on 2015-11-17 2:00 PM

I wanted to welcome everybody to this Tuesday November 17th 2015 Bitton City Council meeting and work session. Our first item on the agenda is citizen comment on consent agenda items. Do we have any cards? No cards. Okay. Number two is request for clarification on agenda items listed on the agenda. Yes Councilmember Wozni. Item 4C 4D on the towing. I'd really like that to be an item for individual consideration so we can kind of explain to our citizens tonight what's in the ordinance and how things have changed . And the other item is 4EE Edward Edward and that's about McKinney Street and the improvements and the text dot. Same thing just to kind of put our citizens in the loop as far as you know what's what's happening with that road improvement schedule. Okay. All right that's it. Okay. Yes Councilmember Johnson. Okay so we've already covered C and D. Item DD dog dog. The question I have is as we're buying these new trucks for for solid waste I'd like to know are we contemplating the the downtown and university area dumpster situation as we're thinking about what we're going to do. Part of the issue has been the types of dumpsters that we're using, the types of trucks that we have. We can't make modifications to the way we we handle that trash because of the limitation on the kind of trucks we have. So just curious about that one. Let me ask Vance or Vance if you could respond to that please or Terry if he 's here. Did you hear his question? Vance? Okay. And if I didn't catch all of it let me know. So the question is would this these trucks accommodate changes or potential changes in services downtown? That's generally. Yeah well I mean basically it looks like these these trucks are the same type of trucks that we currently have. Side load and front load and I know part of what you guys have been working on for a while is with some of these dumpsters that are on sidewalks or you know different places with these small apartment complexes. Part of the limitation of picking up the trash in a different way is the types of containers and the types of trucks that we have. So I'm just curious as we're as we're thinking about spending money on additional trucks are we thinking about that as a part of it? And I don't know if there are other container options that we've identified or there are none and therefore we're just moving forward what we have or what? Boy that's a lot of comments so I'll just sort of say that that's a short one for me. There are very few different types of commercial containers available and so these are actual replacements of existing units that will also go become compressed natural gas fueled which has you know that's the truck component and on that truck then you have a body and so we'll take and those bodies are set up to provide certain types of service. So in some cases the we haven't come back to you to discuss the options for downtown area square district which we should be coming back pretty shortly. On the sidewalk issue we've you know resolved more than half of those. We need to come back to you to discuss how we would handle those outliers that we could not solve upon a voluntary basis. Once we do that then these trucks won't adversely impact that that project. Okay. So they will still be have a use in the existing fleet and we'll have other equipment that will meet the future changing of services as whatever direction that is. Okay so well so what are you saying is these are just replacement trucks for what we already have and right it won't it wouldn't impact our ability to have a different type of equipment should we go a different way? Correct. Thank you. I had one other one mayor. Yes go ahead. This item GG as in Greg Greg. The oh actually no that's not never mind I already got my question answered. I'm good. Okay anybody else? Yes Councilmember Hawkins. Thank you mayor. I'm more I didn't want to poll E but I was hoping we could highlight it in work session here and just kind of give a little summary of what that one was all about. So I'm sorry yes. Yeah. Okay is Amy in here? I should have given a heads up. I thought it was a good thing to highlight. This is agenda E it says considered option of an ordinance of the seed in author izing an agreement between the city of Denton Texas and the child advocacy Center for Denton County. Is that Lynn Carter? Is Lynn here? George that's what let us come back to it. Sure. They've gone to look for Lynn. Okay thank you. Anyone else? I have one on let me see where was it? I just had it marked. Oh JJ it's the agreement with Zygo ZyO. I'm looking at this agreement and JJ yes. Couple of things just more for informational purposes. There's no time limit on this unless I missed it. Was that intentional as far as inspections and things such as that? Larry Collister and one I think that worked on this mostly but Howard you might be able to respond. Right. This whole harmless agreement is to allow ZyO to get in and look at their working in concert with DISD in the county and this allows them to get in and look at the integrity of that system and so this whole harmless agreement would allow them to do that. We don't know exactly how long that period of time they're going to need to evaluate the system and to determine all of the appurtenances that they'll need to look at running their own fiber through the district system or the county system so that's the reason there's no termination. Essentially this is just an agreement to allow them access to the what's currently to the infrastructure that's currently in the right. So they can evaluate that. That's so they can evaluate that right. Okay and this doesn't allow any installation or even? Not at this point. Okay. I think just for the purposes of this if there's a way to clean up the language regarding that it is not a formal or informal consent to any agreement between ZyO and the DSD. Okay never mind I didn't see the last sentence. I skipped over. So basically that's saying that because there was some agreement entered into that may have required or did require the city 's consent that by giving them access and executing this whole harmless indem nity agreement we're not somehow indirectly consenting to that agreement between ZyO and the DSD. Correct. The only thing the instrument before you would do is give ZyO access to our right-of-way so that they can conduct these inspections with regard to the infrastructure that's already in our right-of-way. It does not give them authority to place any additional infrastructure nor does it address the issue as between the city and the ISD concerning any any infrastructure. So this is only an opportunity for ZyO to go in and do their due diligence with regard to the existing infrastructure in our right-of-way and we 're giving them permission to do that. Okay. It's contemplated that there would be a companion agreement that we're currently working on with Zy O that would spell out I guess their ability to install fiber in the city of Dent on period and to what extent. So there's a we're working on with them on another agreement, a companion and agreement. Okay and so this in no way in conjunction with that working is going to be construed as an implied agreement to the transfer that took place in the other jurisdiction. Correct. This this does not address that issue. That issue remains on the table. We do anticipate bringing additional information back to the council and probably some additional action but this is only allowing ZyO to do due diligence with authority there. Okay all right. And I believe the council did ask for an update on where we were with with the working with ZyO. Okay all right. Fantastic. Thank you. Anyone else? Any other? I guess those are clarification of agenda items. May I make a comment on Mr. Hawkins question. That is a renewal of a contract we've had since the Children's Advocacy Center had asked for line item funding several years ago and it's obviously to comply with our needs in the police department to refer to make referrals and Lynn may be able to give you more details of the contract itself. But this is a service that we've briefed the council on several times in the last few years that provides an incredible service to the city and to the citizens by providing services that we would otherwise be required to provide in some other way under statutory requirements. Okay. Yeah and I'm not against it or anything. I just thought it was a good thing to highlight. Great. Anyone else? Okay. Moving on to agenda item 3a. Receive a report, hold discussion, provide staff with direction regarding the city of Denton solid waste and recycling department preceding with a proposed multi-year landfill mining capital project. Thank you Mayor . I'm gonna ask Vance Kemmler our general manager of solid waste and recycling if he would present this item for your discussion and consideration. Thank you Vance. I wasn't sure we were ever gonna get to see this presentation. Hasn't been delayed about five times? We might not be able to if we can't get the overhead. Well good afternoon and thank you for having me up today to talk about our future landfill mining project. We've been looking at landfill mining for a number of years and to provide you a little of the background on this project is that we have a portion of the city's landfill operated from about 1985 to year 2000 is on our 250 acre landfill site and that was designed built and operated under old operating rules and standards referred to as pre-subtitle D operations and that those standards were improved by the federal RECRA rules of subtitle D to be more protective of the environment. What is important about the the old 30 acre landfill is that the lining system was less protective than what we currently use and because of that we have a permit that authorizes us to actually put solid waste on top of that old landfill and that something that is no longer allowed. So we looked at the what what should we do with that original 30 acre landfill and because we didn't want to have the long-term risk of potential contamination to the land and the groundwater in that area of the 30 30 acre landfill. With that it appeared that landfill mining might be an option to be considered and in landfill mining we look at also material recovery, reuse of the land by mining that and possible energy recovery. Our motivations primarily were were keyed on protection of the water resources because the if there were contamination from this old style liner system into the groundwater and we had built a future landfill on top of it it would be very difficult to do a rehabilitation should we have problems in the future. Okay. Secondly the the advantage of landfill mining was that we could recover resources and there are an awful lot of before we did much in the way of recycling there are an awful lot of commodities that are located in that old landfill. The third item was that we could reuse typical of landfill operations in that era and so we got to we will be able to reuse that that 30 acre site and we will also be able to reduce the emissions from that old design and operating criteria area. Excuse me so I heard you refer to it at the material that was in the landfill as commodities so maybe we not should not refer to it as landfill but as a commodity storage area. Sure. In fact you know the terms used today are resource recovery because those are resources that are currently in long-term storage so so that's a that 's something that you know that our industry looks at today and the landfill mining as a general technology or topic is receiving much more attention and will in the future. So thanks for pointing that out. So on the financial considerations because we do have to look at those we've looked at the financial considerations in relation to airspace recovery because it costs a lot of money to build a landfill and provide a storage space for landfill waste. We can reduce the landfill aftercare and monitoring particularly on this old type of waste operation and as Dalton mentioned recyclable revenues can be had from those commodities that we recover metals fiber plastics things like that and we also are operating our landfill to produce renewable energy in the form of landfill gas for which we convert into electric power. So once we recapture that landfill space we'll be able to then make more methane gas for the waste that then would go into that future space and it also extends the life the usable life of our single site so that we don't have to look for other sites in the future and by reusing that space we also defer the capital cost and permitting for future facilities. So with that we looked at the technical economic and regulatory requirements to determine whether we thought landfill mining might be feasible on this particular project site and we determined that that it would be so the next step was to to give you an orientation of what we're looking at if you look at the upper right corner that light green rectangle represents the 30 acres in question and it is just a part of about a 250 acre site and so the next step we did was actually site investigation and excavated some of the waste so that we could determine what the revenues might be from to help defer the cost of mining and we found the the garbage to be in pristine condition so you can see the newspaper from 1989 still readable and that one is another section of that paper that says that you can buy a pickup truck for $9,900 from Millwater Ford and that is an example of how good even the paper is in this landfill so can you with that can you explain that why that is not decomposed what what's different between what they were doing at that time and what we're doing now in terms of making decomposition happen the rapidly okay the the concept implemented by EPA was to to build landf ills that would be a dry tomb remove water ensure that no gas or no liquids would go out of those landfills and in taking that dry tomb concept you have ent ombed the material so that it does not decompose well it decomposes very slowly so you haven't really isolated the waste from the environment you have just slowed down the process so we do get a little methane gas out of that 30 acre site so it's very slowly decomposing and there has been a big change in the philosophy and that is that rather than have that material decompose for 30 50 hundred years or more we should probably have that organic waste decomposed as quick as possible manage those gases capture them so they don't go into the atmosphere because many of these gases are extremely potent greenhouse gases do quite a bit of damage to the air environment so so our facility is operated as a bioreactor to biologically chemically and physically stabilize the waste in a very short period of time so that the rest of the landfill that we're operating today will not have newspapers that will look like that in 20 years it will just be a compost totally degraded and that too can be mined in the future and I'll show you a slide on that a little later so mining is has been going on for a number of years on a limited basis in the United States and on a more frequent basis in Europe and these are just some of the sites in the US and the concept of mining is on the on your left side we have an open-loop waste management system that says when natural resources are converted to products we buy them and get rid of them and we just bury them in a landfill you haven't really closed the loop or recycle or reuse that material there is a movement to go to a closed loop system which is what landfill mining is a component of and that means that you then remove those commodities from the landfill and you know save those resources those natural resources that also also means that you want to get as many of those commodities and recyclables out of the landfill before you're burying them in the first place something that you know the City Council's goals are for us to achieve and with that concept we are looking at our landfill as being a sustainable landfill where you simply mine a section as you're filling another section as that achieves chemical physical and stabilization you go back in and mine that material you just won't have any of those newspapers and the food waste because they will have been decomposed but you'll still have the things that weren't recycled easily before they were landfill those can be recaptured soils can be reused things like that so that's a quick concept of the landfill mining and that also meets the strategic plan for a key focus area to promoting superior utility services and with that that is a very quick overview we have the the permitting in at TCEQ and we should be getting that approved in the next couple of months and we'll be starting that process in the next year councilmember Briggs do you have an estimated time on how long it would take for the 30 acres yes part of that will depend on once we get in operation what our actual processing throughput or capacity will be but we 've expect that to be no more than 10 years but probably pushing closer to five years so that's our range so that we can have that all removed in that five to ten year period thank you mm-hmm councilmember Hawkins thank you mayor when we start doing this how many jobs is it going to create what kind of new equipment are we going to need what does the operation kind of look like the the employment the jobs will be and probably eight to twelve people and the equipment wise I don't have that number with me but it's about ten to twelve pieces of equipment varying in price from a hundred thousand to five hundred thousand so from the pro forma standpoint what we see is that the cost of this mining is what we've looked at in the pro forma is on selling commodities and dirt and concrete those things we can we've looked at the commodity pricing over the average of the three years because commodities are very cyclic and with that the cost of mining is comparable to development of virgin or new landfill space so even with the the cost of the employees and the equipment built in that's still basically equivalent to doing the same thing without any an expansion of the landfill thank you pro tem do we anticipate that this will add to the the odor or is it will it will it be about the same I don't know how you measure that odor is one of the primary issues that we look at in those operations and so the because it has not degraded to the extent you'd see in the rest of the landfill the odor there will be an odor to manage but it will not be nearly as bad as as it would be in some other areas and some of the equipment we have already purchased is is equipment to manage that odor to keep it from going off-site so yes that's that's the one nuisance item that and litter that's the other one that we take special care to manage so that we do not impact our neighbors I a little bit different trail a while back I was listening to a one of the expanded local news reports on the public radio station KER a Dallas didn't in Fort Worth didn't being in there and they had a story about our landfill and one of the things that they mentioned was that over 40 countries have made inquiries or have come to visit about the operations can you tell us a little more about that well that's well there are several reasons for that the we have worked with the University of Texas School of Engineering and we have probably half a dozen plus graduate students engineers working on research projects on our facility that the University of Texas Ar lington has authorized the establishment of an off-site research when they call it a it's a research facility that will is on our facility and it's called Solid Waste Institute for Sustainability that organization their engineers and we at the city staff have worked with the International Solid W aste Association which is a global industry organization that that that coordinates solid waste recycling industry with government and you know state governments or country governments and that organization headquartered out of Vienna Austria is putting on a a global training session on sustainable landfill operations here in Denton it's a two-week course that will be between Dent on and Arlington's UTA facilities in late January with our work and with work with the World Bank and EPA and to a lesser extent with the UN we are seeing substantial number of countries come to this facility to see how we're doing our operations we've had this past week we had the head of solid waste in Ethiopia come in they head up a five-country operation they they're going to bring some people over to and we're going to actually work with them to develop a similar system to the Solid Waste Institute for Sustainability for the Horn of Africa we've had our some of our staff go to Ghana that our landfill manager has gone to three countries in Eastern Europe let's see we have we 're working with Japanese firm that came over and visited and they are working on trying to duplicate our landfill operation in three countries in South and Southeast Asia one of them is Vietnam but so so the word has gotten around that there's some that we do some interesting things that are sustainable and you're being much too modest you do some great things the staff out there has done some great things and I'm very appreciative I hope that maybe we can get more media could pick up on this and tell this story because this is a great story to share thanks any other questions any other questions seeing none thank you Vance appreciate it going on to work session agenda item 3b receive report from DME staff whole discussion offer staff guidance regarding potential utilization of gas insulate insulated technology within DME electric utility substations thank you Mary this is a work session discussion council asked for more information on this product and Phil Williams our general manager of DME will present this work session. good afternoon council had during the last discussion of the Eagle substation council had asked for more information about gas insulated substations so I'm here to provide more information about gas insulated substations today for background of course Eagle substation is does not new news is presented some sighting challenges and cost us to look at some creative solutions you asked for more information for we're gonna provide today we're of course the Eagle substation is part of our ongoing project to replace our inner 69 kv loop and upgrade it to 138 and in addition to add a substation site for add a substation site for additional growth in that area why would you consider gas insulated substations the smaller site gives you room for expansion it uses SF6 gas it's an insulating factor between the faces instead of an air ins ulated substation the equipment there is enclosed it provides better protection against wildlife and weather the count the that's the plus side of it the con side of it is is when it has an issue it has a significant issue and requires more downtown more downtime is somewhat like the difference between us building an overhead line or underground lines over you know everybody prefers underground because the aesthetics but when there's an issue in underground it's a longer outage it's harder to get to overhead has an advantage of being cheaper capital cost upfront and easier to get to and address issues where we use it possibly Eagle substation of course has been looked at for this site but staff wants to suggest to you another option or another place to look at that to consider be using at the Hickory substation Hickory subst ation similar issues a tight spot to be in a place that where aesthetics would be a concern and area where we would have a future expansion would be challenging in that area Phil on that do you feel it might be smarter to have two of these going you know we're gonna have to have special personnel to work on them or trained and we we would have to incur some additional training costs each year to keep our existing substation staff up to speed and trained on how to operate on these work on these we will have to incur additional cost to a contractor for backup to be available to us on and there's contractors that be available to us on point for our basis to come if there's a significant issue such as a major equipment failure and so there would be some economies to scale from having to the question is is do you want to have to backing each other up such as Eagle and Hickory are two substations that serve both served the UNT campus served Presby hospital you're serving downtown area and those two substations back it do you want the same technology that's something new and different for your staff in the same area of town backing them up so there's a pro and cons of that question Councilman Wasney and correct me if I 'm wrong the downtime is substantial that it's a difference of hours versus days correct the usually if we have a storm come through like one did last night early this morning and it caused a problem in the substation our substation personnel are on call respond and can usually have that issue addressed in a matter of hours if not a couple hours these if they have a significant issue then you'll be talking about probably a 24-hour outage and that's before the outside contractor get to town start working on it then what didn't they address it when they got here and so you could be so talking about two hours you could be talking about two days I guess to sort of dovetail on that I mean I hear that but that's if you have outside contractors I mean if we decide to go this route on a couple of substations that are in heavily residential or highly dense areas I would fully expect that DME would have personnel that would be adequately trained that could respond in the same time frame now if it just takes longer to do the work once you're on site but also a storm that rolls through like last night some of those substation down times are due to lightning strikes due to things flying through the air if these things are enclosed isn't that greatly diminished as far as the kind of potential impact some kind of event like that would have yes sir I mean that's exactly right I mean that's why some the the list we have here we've talked about cost already to cost the equipment is roughly twice as much but the performance reliability is enhanced much like it is for an underground conductor right and overhead conductor overhead conductors out there with susceptible to limbs you know wildlife squirrels whatever getting into this is enclosed and preclude you from that if you have a lightning strike energy surge it causes an issue part of the problem is and certainly we would have some of our own personnel trained to deal with routine matters sure but if it's a surge that simply pride you know use not technical and prism equipment then there is an issue of dealing with the SF six gas right the SF six gas is a very what was the term that Vance used before highly potent greenhouse gas has a highly negative effect on it as a greenhouse gas it is an issue that can be dealt with just like gas from air conditioning system it's free on gas that has to be captured or dealt with that's part of the time is taking and dealing with that if you're having to take that station out of service is dealing with that and just the extra time it takes for you to put it back in service it's not I mean it's my understanding that they're there they're working on replacing that that they understand the nature of that gas and that there's companies working together to replace the type of gas that is in those units to be much more environmentally friendly do you are you do you have any information on that or I haven't I haven't seen that today I mean I know that I know they have been working on that gas because this gas essentially it's this is its only use in society is to use it for this insulating factor and they're looking to waste we find it much like they find the different kinds of gas used in the air conditioning system sure keep working to refine this gas also and they've had done that for sure mayor protein thank you mayor when this idea one of the times when it was discussed with us when we were talking about the sites over close to Eagle Drive people yes an individual said that the normal subst ations that we're using now are rural substations and that this is an urban subst ation so I was thinking okay so would we find these in Dallas or in Fort Worth or in Houston or San Antonio Austin I mean are these are these the kinds of substations that are being used now these are my understanding these are used in about three percent of the substation installations in the United States so they're certainly you know aerosolated substations which I think the previous individual would characterize as rural are certainly used predominant or used a lot in city areas encore when I checked with them had no gas insulated substations in their system and in encore serves Dallas encore serves Midland Odessa Wichita Falls Dallas Fort Worth Tyler Brown Rock largest transmission distribution service provider in Texas so we know that one of these substations is in Austin are there any others in Texas the the service provider for Houston called Center Point has one in Houston area and it's addressing the same issue a tight urban area where the cost of the land was going to be more expensive gonna be so expensive it drove them to this and that's what we're usually seeing San Francisco New York areas where the real estate is so expensive that this the paying the extra expense for this kind of technology makes sense and the difference in between the cost of this and the cost of the standard substation and the possible reduction of footprint oh you have the slide okay thank you sir you're welcome so at Eagle substation we're talking about the aerosolated substation that has four breakers talking about 11 million dollars for the equipment for a gas insulated substation it's 16.8 million dollars plus the underground in the transmission line going in and out of the substation there's a cost and so that creates an additional cost of 8 million dollars more for the gas ins ulated substation now you do get more capacity in which you have future room for growth with air insulated substation when excuse me with the gas ins ulated substation that you wouldn't have with the air insulated substation at this site in that space so there is it does give you more room to expand and have room for serving more customers out that substation in the future this is an Eagle substation we talked about the Hickory substation there I have a little bit bigger footprint already and I go from an aerosolated substation at six breakers to a gas insulated substation it would be you know have eight breakers but there I'm serving have potential to serve not only a Presby hospital in UNT but also for the growth that's going to occur and raise a ranch just north of this station it would give me room for that additional growth that's going to happen there I would also have an opportunity to this substation site at Hickory is to interchange between three different transmission lines not just one in one out like we have an Eagle this one has a transmission line coming in from Artie Wells to the west Bonnie brace up to the north and then coming in from the south also from existing now from Locust so to give you a picture of what that looks like let me just go ahead and cut to the picture so this is the present look at a Hickory substation with a with the substation design is what we propose and this is what's been submitted to P&Z for getting our SUP permit there if we went an aerosolate substation we would still have some divide some static lines there to catch the lightning strikes but it reduces the overhead structure substantially to give you a picture of that what I'm talking about there how much it cleans it up this is Hickory coming in Bonnie Bray going north and south oak going out so essentially all this existing subst ation exists today at Hickory that all goes away we would bring the transmission line that comes in along Oak Street now get to a point and why it off to go to the north side so there would be some transmission poles with some switching apparatus on it on the north side of oak but then we go these lines right here indicate underground transmission that we come into that substation and then coming from the south we would get we would go underground at Stella Street which is one block south of Hickory and coming underground that way and so all distribution feeders coming out and all the transmission lines coming in and out would all be on the ground and so I was saying it's cheap it's pretty expensive to do that but as far as a site there that would give you a big bang for the buck as far as cleaning up the aesthetics of the site for the site where you're coming in staff just want to put that out there that hey here's another place where you might if you're on consider using this technology here's a place where you really clean up the aesthetics of the neighborhood sorry go ahead great don't have to live actually have three questions but can we consider a gas insulated overhead projector please the actually two questions so can you go back to the cost comparison because I think I think we're on to something here I don't recall seeing and Hickory or Eagle well just go back to Eagle first so to be fair when we do a cost comparison so we're getting 50% more capacity there is that what that means for breaker versus six yes sir so I mean really you're adding a little more than 50% of the cost but you're getting 50% more capacity so to give apples to apples comparison I mean we get a lot more it's essentially the same value if you look at it right 11 you're looking at a site you're looking at a site I'm just throwing out there a site that were traditionally if I go with the four breaker that lasts me for 30 years I can go for six breakers this might last me for 50 years without having to do any expansion right or yeah just based on the growth so to be fair you know we've all at least my recollection we've compared traditional to GIS we've talked about GIS being it's just much more expensive I don 't recall seeing that we got 50% more capacity which to me is just there's value in that right so it's another it's essentially the same cost if you look at my cost per per breaker right and then my other question was just probably a pretty simple one but on this on this gas you mentioned the how dangerous the gas is or whatever there's not a lot of it though right I mean it's like Freon in the air conditioner is it fully contained is there a concern about it escaping in some way or is it like Freon on an air conditioner so you know if we end up building and of course what we'd put in be much pre-built this is in the middle of UT's campus and so it's hidden behind their facilities building studying care about pretty was but essentially all these pipes have the electric conductor in them and they're full they were insulated by that gas and so you're talking about I don't know how to quantify how much gas that is or how many miles of pipe that is but you're yeah but you're essentially you've got a pipe and you're charging it right so it's full yes there's no gas line coming to it or any of that business right so you're charging it up if I'm guessing there's leak detection yes in place so yes I mean you're relatively low risk in terms of worrying about a leak and the people the operations chief operating officer of Austin energy that I talked to indicated that you know her quote to me was my engineers love it my operations guys hate it and the reason the engineers love it is it's an innovative design but something but she says they've had it in for six years and they've had no issues with it it's been very reliable thank you Mary well that's a good point cost per breaker too and if you had to kind of guess is the GIS footprint I mean is it half the size of a AIS footprint is it yes essentially yeah well that's interesting to me I mean of course the upfront cost and then keeping that other footprint on the tax rolls possibly too with development just kind of thinking there so thank you when you showed the elevation of the Hickory site with the decorative wall I believe that we added about a million dollars to that project in order to build that kind of a wall and I'm wondering if given the the structure that's behind that wall if we need to spend quite that much money does the wall need to be that tall anymore this is now understand 23 feet tall and so the present construction is which is built to try to hide as much of that infrastructure as possible we had that discussion that would we need to build it quite that tall there was to be a building in there then the transformers would still be in there and you'd be pretty close that half to keep the transformers hidden from view I mean behind that wall or still the you know behind the SF6 transmission line gases are insulating the lines but those lines are still coming out to a distribution a transformer that transform from a high voltage to a low voltage and they're still the same transformers you see in our standard substations so you don't see that there's a whole lot of room for any kind of savings in the we can go back and look see if we know if we lower that two feet but it's not going to be substantial savings well but you 've got a wall that's down the full length of Oak Street and is that Oak Street or Hickory this is taking from the perspective of across the street of this is Oak and this is body brain it out here is this I mean is this wall going around the whole perimeter of the land or just the footprint of the AI IS substation it's going around the whole perimeter of the land because you're going to be able to cut that down I mean if this was a GIS with a smaller footprint you're not going to I mean you could bring that in and cut it across somewhere else and even just leave I mean I sorry to keep flipping around here keep going back to the call slide the problem at the Hickory side if I'm having eight breakers in there I'm not so sure I'm not using the full side is that okay whoever's gonna speak needs to come to the mic please yeah I don't mind you speaking it but yeah just yeah but to I'm gonna look at them just to refer one sure sure but yeah you're gonna use the full if you're gonna go with that many breakers in there and that many transformer devices you're going to use that entire footprint I mean it's a bigger substation then we're talking about it the one that equal because this one's in there change of three transmission lines coming in whereas Eagle is just two well and and I think what we don 't have in the cost I mean honestly I appreciate you councilmember Johnson pointing out that there's more capacity which means yeah there is a cost difference but we also have a additional capacity which what we're struggling with with the Eagle substation is because of the growth at UNT that's one of the factors one of the I don't know if I'm gonna say major but yeah 50% of the factor of they're growing and so and that's why UT has one of those I believe on their site was because of that but if you just look at this we don't have any price here associated or costs with it with aesthetics as if the aesthetics don't add any value in other words instead of the one you showed us with all the metal coming out of the top plus we get rid of the substation across the street on hickory and oak that I mean whatever you want to do with that so and it's my understanding correct me if I'm wrong that when we talk about underground transmission at the at a Hick at an Eagle substation site wherever that may be somewhere over there that there's some discussion about what do we do with those underground lines right now they're going through UNT that some that there may be some idea that do we want those underground as UNT want them underground and and if so what's the cost and who pays and so in other words there may be some motivation that if there's a decision made somewhere else about just the transmission lines where they are now having you could clean up a lot of that area as well as far as taking underground transmission because yes it's costlier but you do get a benefit from I mean it's yes it's not just a sunk cost with no note it's not you know zero-sum game there is some benefit from that so okay well so the discussion we have one comment you made yes the discussions with UNT has been to underground of distribution lines they're going through the case but the transmission lines would remain overhead but by putting the distribution lines off of the transmission towers we could space them further apart and it still be a cleaner look yeah reduce the number of actual transmission poles okay thank you for clearing that up I appreciate that yes I really appreciate that mr. Johnson called my attention to the six versus eight breakers appreciate I need help and that's something everybody in the room will agree upon do we have to have eight breakers for a GIS could we get by with six and could that reduce the cost yes thank you I need to get drink anyway that's a great question that you asked could it reduce the cost that question was asked by our public utilities board the answer is each additional breaker adds about six hundred thousand dollars to the cost and so by having the additional two breakers that's 1.2 million of that eight million dollar difference so it's not a significant portion but it is a sizable portion okay yeah it doesn't seem like it would be worth it to reduce the number not for the additional benefits of reliability and flexibility as we move forward with the city electrical growth thank you so like I said both of them the reformers reliability of this equipment operating life 40 plus years is in both of them GIS systems have been involved in different places in the world same thing as on the ground versus overhead they have better liabilities having fewer outages just may do have an out ages longer outage well we'll beef up our training of our personnel we send them to probably classes every year to stay up to speed on handle handle this equipment manufacturers will be used for backup for when we install the equipment if we have to do if you have the whole routine maintenance will have people trained to deal in our staff there's a major outage we'll call in people outside much like you would at a power plant question Councilman was me so our customers truly expect and truly need reliability and cost so in terms of reliability the Eagle substation services UNT and the Hickory substation services Presbyterian Hospital our end users are to basically critical mass end users in terms of you know if these things go out so I think that has to be part of the thought process as well that hospital and University if if that goes down last question we heard about Austin and they have two of these I think one on campus and one off of 35 Houston gets a lot of severe weather do they have one GIS how long and how reliable has their GIS been I don't know all the particulars about the Houston Center point insulation I know it's been in for several years and I haven't had any indication that there were a lot of any reliability issues I think their installation was mainly because not because concerned about whether all you're right this would be better performing in a hurricane but I think their installation was mainly due to the same reasons we're looking at as far as space considerations to follow up on that so let me sure understand sort of just in basic terms I could say the Hickory substation whether it's AIS or GIS something happens and I guess you can lose is it all or nothing it's all up or it's all down or so if it goes all down surely there 's some I mean I think that's why we've been putting in this big 350 to half a billion dollar infrastructure upgrade and new substations is to have redundancy so that if one goes down another one can pick up the load so that we're avoiding this sort of what this is down you're out so is that how the new Hickory one is designed even no matter what technology you use that there's some redundancy in that substation or if it goes down that means the hospital goes dark and the university goes dark that certainly the the reason for our program is to increase reliability increase redundancy in the system August 6 2011 Saturday morning 715 I get a call that we think we've lost the transformer at Hickory the number one transformer and so half the subst ation staff and engineering staffs called out and we started analyzing it's out for at that point we've switched the load over to other transformers to serve that point but that point we started having the sickening feeling of my goodness it's an August summer day as the load increases and we get to two to three o'clock in the afternoon loads going to increase enough that we don't have enough transformer capacity if this transformer out we don't have enough transformer capacity to serve all the load that's going to come up and we're going to have to look at doing rotating the outages every 15 minutes circle and feeder off to rotate the outage around until we get past 8 o'clock at night and so that's what a that's what a transformer shortage looks like is on your peak days you don't have enough capacity to serve all your load and that load could be you and T could be all the apartments around there you know it's all loaded all that that you're switching feeders over to and so that I don't know if I answered your question or if I understood it correctly but I mean that's what a transformer capacity shortage looks like is on your peak usage times you don't have enough capacity you don't have any flexibility left that if equipment failure happens to switch that load over to the transformer that's why you want these transformers running about 50% load so that if something happens to this one I can switch all that load over to the next one next to it so when you look at six breakers and eight breakers I think was the difference between does a breaker represent a transformer is okay okay transformer or transmission line and no reason to ask that is because what I'm hearing you say is that no matter where you are what kind of technology it is you have to have enough transformers that if one or two or whatever goes down you either feed it to some other physical location or you switch the load over at that particular at that particular place to a transformer that's either not being used or it has less of a load on it however the engineering works out on that I mean that's a whole new science okay all right but I mean that incident back in that in 2011 what really spurred us to look at and say where are we if our transformer capacity and realizing that well we need we need more sites like the Eagle site to put in there so that they can back each other up and spread this load around to serve it okay all right so then the the substation at Hickory even if it were AIS it's it's in being increased in size and capacity from the old one yes sir to accommodate what you just said and that is we're creating more capacity there so if something has happens we have the equipment within that space to shift the load over it yes sir I mean it's been increased two ways one go from 69,000 K votes right to 138 increases capacity but also additional equipment okay all right good any other questions what do you need oh I'm sorry go ahead so back to the problem at hand back to Eagle substation we've eliminated one of the options we left ourselves with three options main two being either GIS on a smaller site or the 9/11 Bernard staff had recommended and the PB had agreed to deny 11 Bernard because we had a willing seller and so and we could go with an AIS substation there and not incur the additional cost for a GIS subst ation just here to tell you today we're staff has reviewed this and reviewed it with PUB and we're still at that same situation we do have some additional information to share with you as far as the land purchase that could influence your decision and so I would advise that we share that with you in closed session and then get direction as far as how you'd like to proceed is that a closed session schedule for today it is okay well okay I just want to say that I I like the GIS technology at least for two of those substations doesn't mean they have to both be there I certainly like it for the Hickory substation I'd like to see how doing that there would affect those costs I think for the Eagle substation we can talk about in closed session I just have some thoughts on that as well as far as costs and things so okay yes question yes Phil so just like we're talking about Eagle going from six to eight give us that increased capacity so given that each additional breaker provides us that additional capacity would there be any reason why you wouldn't want to if you had the space on the Eagle substation to build an eight breaker versus a six or a four I mean I'm saying you're right if I had a space available where I built a eight breaker station there instead of a instead of what I'm building if I had a space available for a I a station yes I'd build a breaker station there I didn't build it because the space the additional space was so expensive that we pulled back on it right still to be turk it still grows capacity where we are now it's too much better than where we are now right but it's not what we hope is not if I had all the space available I would have built more I'm yeah I mean because it just seems to me that the incremental cost of adding a breaker as a percentage of the total project is not that much money I mean I don't want to talk about six thousand dollars flippantly but you're gonna go do it what you know why I have to come back and have a whole new project with the amount of growth that's happening between razor ranch UNT and all parts around it you know if we end up having a larger site than what we need for a six breaker I would just throw out you know why wouldn't we consider I mean obviously at the end of the day we have to look at all the math and make sure it makes sense but if we're gonna broaden our thinking which I think what is what the mayor got us to do when we talked about this last time and this this additional breaker capability is comparing the cost really is open my eyes well hold on a second it's really not that much more expensive it's more total dollars day one but you're building additional capacity that you want to build later so I'll just throw out if we're gonna broaden our thinking let's think about if we end up having excess space for Eagle substation maybe we build an eight breaker and don't have to come back and do it later just a thought yeah if we ended up doing just an AIS at the Eagle substation how far down the road if we want to do GIS at H ickory I mean would that delay that one you said that P&Z is looking at an SUP for that here really soon and would that delay that project not substantially not substantial okay I mean it wouldn't I mean our ultimate goal was to be able to confer our whole inner loop to 138 and we got a lot of segments to do and so so it was still fitting there okay any other questions yes sir so I think just to highlight this let's celebrate a victory so I think this is a great example of because I think a citizen brought this idea to us initially I can't remember Phil where citizens says hey here's an idea our experts take it go do all the analysis all the research here's everybody that makes them here's the pros and the cons and we're able to make a quality decision based on an idea provided by a citizen fully v etted by our experts and now we're able to make a good decision so kudos to you guys for because I think this is one I think we could celebrate right we started out down a path and I think something me included we're kind of closed minded to the idea of moving it incurring the additional expense now we've vetted this thing and and I think we've landed in a much better place than where we started so I think it's a good it's a good example of citizen has an idea you guys take the idea go do all the research and come back and and now we're able to vet it out and make a good decision so kudos to you and your guys for doing that. Thank you. Credit where credits due this was Phil Williams idea initially because we sat down and heard about GIS from Phil and then the citizen actually expanded on it when he brought it forward during the Eagle substation but it specifically was Phil Williams at DME who brought forth his new technology because you were in touch with Austin and Houston to really get information on this new technology and I remember that clearly I want to thank you for that. I 'm gonna pass it on to my staff Brent Heath and Chuck Sears and Chuck especially for being a conversion as we've called it to open up and look at this technology. And based on the chart we got today Chuck is a citizen so we were all right. Well and and I would just say that if if I had to choose which we'll all talk about that but me personally the Bonnie Bray Hickory substation if we were gonna do something like this and try because aesthetically that's we 're fixing to widen that road to four lanes that's gonna be one of the major thoroughfares coming through our city for either people coming to university or people wanting to just come so I think we need to factor that in there somewhere so anyway those are my those are my thoughts on that. Any other comments? Thank you very much thank you Phil appreciate that thank you for that information. Okay agenda item number three which is work session three receive report hold discussion give staff direction regarding proposed commercial development on the west side I-35 north of Wind River Lane and South Denton that includes a Buckees Travel Center as an anchor and potential incentive for the project. Yes Councilmember Wozniak. I would like to make a council request and at Council's indulgence and agreement we have a citizen who would like to speak for their three or four minutes on this issue and I would ask permission for that to happen. Elmer Walker is here today and would like to speak briefly on this issue. Council? I don't know. Well and I'm okay with it but I do and as I mentioned with you I do want to not set a precedent here because we've had three of these types of speakers on different issues and some of them before we've even heard the presentation so I certainly invite you to come up Miss Walker but I think in the future if we need to change the rules regarding this type of procedure we want to I'd like for us to talk about that as a body because it could be that we get and if you let someone you really have to be fair and let let others so I just put that out there's a comment what what no further ado no you can come you can come speak right now you bet I well I would say I'm not sure if the presentation would change your thoughts will either way but come on up and Jennifer is keeping time and you'll just hear a little ding or something like that. Just get set up here. Pull the mic down just a little thank you. My name is Alma Walker 9805 Grandview. I'm a real estate broker and this is regarding the Buckees proposal and I apologize for the man sitting next to me anyway I offend him. I and others oppose this proposal the Whitesman signs on the property read coming soon pads available. Really? This is a 24/7 operation with lights gl aring all night. Noise and fumes including the tank trucks delivering fuel to 96 pumps at an incredulous rate to add to our already poor air quality. The zoning was never appropriate considering the upscale unicorn Lake development and especially for Southridge and Wind River which had no buffering zoning in between such as condos apartments office retailer light industrial once the 35e improvements are completed the property involved today will appreciate in value and we can have better candidates that would add to the quality of our city there and that would add to the that would and perhaps influence improvements to the shopping center on the corner of Lillian Miller and access road you know with I 35e. The council would be expected to require any buyer or tenant of that property to provide a wide tree stand of mature trees as a buffer zone as well as soundproof walls and other requirements the council would expect as if 96 gas wells were proposed that even mr. Applin admitted my understanding at the meeting that he would wouldn't want a Buckees in his own backyard. There is no comparison to the appropriateness at the intersection of highway 114 and I 35 w across the street from the Texas Motor Speedway in North Fort Worth. The traffic on I 35e and adjacent access road is a nightmare daily already and this will only be compounded by a Buckees at that location. You won't be able to even call it an access road it will be an inaccessible road instead in an already congested area. There are accidents on a regular basis with gigantic traffic congestion and shutdowns on the highway and access road and then down Teas ley Lane 2181. As for Applin's offer to pay two million dollars to help pay for an over or under pass from Brinker Road and Mayhill Road area under or across I 35e the city could save all those incentives rebates and entit lements wanted and cough up just two million itself at any time to Texas DOT to step that up if necessary for more worthy enterprise. Loop 288 Lillian Miller underpass is and has been a problem area for traffic as well as the Brinker and Mayhill areas for some time. That would be a better investment for Denton than those desired by Buckees. Remember Robeson Ranch and Hunter Branch had no incentives for the needed improvements and infrastructure needed to develop those projects and had to have if you could just wrap it yeah your time if you can just go ahead and finish your thoughts that'd be great thank you very much I 'm sorry. So we need to stop giving money to developers every time the tent the Denton taxpayers want this to stop. Denton as a location offers many pluses to any business or commercial coming to Denton so Corinth did its homework and decided that this was not the best thing for Corinth Denton can decide not to offer any incentives tax rebates and entitlements for this project to do the same. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay staff presentation. Thank You Mayor Amy Bissett our Director of Development Services will present this to council for consideration. Thank you. Thank You Mayor and City Council members I'm going to distribute hard copies of this presentation since we're having some some technical difficulties. The purpose of this work session today is to introduce this project in a work session format so that you have the opportunity to ask questions and learn about the project and discuss in a global perspective the potential of incentivizing the project. I do want to introduce Mr. Be aver Applin he's in the audience today he is the owner of Buc-E's and and he is available to respond to questions during this presentation. I want to start by orienting to orienting you to the site which I know you're all familiar with at this point the proposed location is north of Unicorn Lake and the the development the proposed development includes an anchor of a Buc-E's Travel Center which is about a 53,000 square foot retail store with fuel sales and a car wash and then additional development of pad sites along I-35E. I want to clarify up front that the proposed development is not a truck stop in fact B uc-E's posts at every entrance that semi trucks and tractor trailers are not allowed on the property the only time you'll see a large truck on site if it's a delivery truck to to stock the location. The current zoning is regional center commercial downtown and it has overlay conditions it was rezoned in 2008 and at that time the overlay conditions were added in order to provide additional protections for the neighborhood. The proposed uses are all permitted in the zoning district they include retail sales and service quick vehicle servicing and a drive-through facility which would be the car wash. Amy before you move on from this slide I was on the council when this was rezoned and I do remember for those who that were here I guess Dalton I think you were here no you weren't here. Oh wow that really makes me feel. We're gonna have to we're gonna have to back off on the aging jokes. There was a very robust discussion on this particular result and there wasn't even any proposed uses specifically at that time and a lot of the conditions that were approved in the overlay district are as a result of the the neighborhood input that we had during this process and I remember this pretty clearly so I guess I have one question because I know a lot of the conversation during that rezoning hinged upon apartments and is our apartments a prohibited I'm sorry a use that's permitted or is it by SUP or they just not prohibited at all? By SUP and in fact the site immediately adjacent to this property has an approved apartment project that's not under construction yet. Okay well and the reason I just bring that up is is just to say that not only will we probably have a robust discussion for this one but there was one at that time that did include these overlay conditions for the very reasons that I think we'll hear so I just I just wanted to share a little bit of historical context in that regard. Thank you and I'm gonna go into more detail about the overlay conditions specifically. Oh I'm sorry yes before we move on can you go a little bit more what apartments have been approved or what are you talking about? It's an apartment project I couldn't speak to a lot of the details of it but an SUP was approved on it a month or two ago. It would be if you look on the screen it would be down here. The future land use map which is a part of our Denton plan 2030 calls for this area to be a regional mixed-use area with moderate and high -density residential commercial office entertainment and other uses except industrial. It is considered to be our highest level of scale and density within the city and it's primarily located along I-35 and other major arterials in the community. I want to talk a little bit about the overlay conditions and one of them is that the developer must provide a 50-foot landscaping buffer bordering the the nearby neighborhoods. This is above and beyond what the DDC would ask them to do and 50-foot is a significant buffer and there are details about how many trees and how many shrubs per every hundred linear feet have to be included in that as well. Amy what what is the if there was no overlay what would be the buffer requirement according to the DDC? The maximum would be 25 feet. Okay thank you. 15 feet. I'm getting cues from the audience. So 15 feet if there weren't any overlays then whether it's Buc-E's or whomever the setback would have been 15 feet. That's correct. No building within a hundred feet of the residential developments may exceed 40 feet in height and the existing pond has to remain as a part of the overlay. An eight-foot rod iron fence has to be constructed by the developer which would essentially provide the ability for those neighbors near the pond to still be able to see the pond. The proposed site plan I want to walk through it in some level of detail for you. The original site plan that we saw had the bottom right corner of the Buc-E's building which you can see on the screen here. It was about 125 feet from the nearest property line and after visiting with the developer he went back and reconfigured the site plan and this is an early site plan there's been no approval of this site plan yet to move the Buc-E's building towards I-35 as far as possible considering the constraints of the property as it exists today and was able to get almost an additional 100 feet almost double the amount of space that the building is away from the nearest property owner and that would be this one right back here. Amy real quick I should never eat peanuts when I'm gonna talk. That's not what I was wanting to say. Sorry. Next time I'll be sure and remind you. Remind me because sometimes I get confused on what a set back requirement really means in other words when we say setback does that mean that it's the actual building structure that can't that can go up to that setback or is it parking lots or what is it that has to be 15 or 50 or whatever the setback is? There are various there are different DDC requirements that speak to various issues related to that so there's a lot coverage requirement not to exceed a certain lot coverage there's a floor area ratio requirement which is not to exceed a certain square footage building on the lot and there's setback requirements and all of those would vary depending on the development some would be fire code related some would be related to density and zoning. Well I guess what I'm and I think what I hear you saying those variables may interchange but let's just say this is the example that's up there so let's just use this example because it's what we're talking about so when I hear a 50 foot setback does that mean that any of the concrete that associated with the parking has to be or the building itself has to be 50 feet away from the property. It's a 50 foot landscape buffer so it has to be 50 feet of green space between the property line and any parking any paving. Okay any part of the improvement. Okay all right gotcha. Okay thank you appreciate that. Yes Councilman Wasme. I just want to clarify for people who are watching at home that a 40 foot height restriction equals a four-story building and that the majority of homes correct me if I'm wrong are one and two story. That is correct. I want to talk a little bit further about the the layout and the features that are currently in consideration. First of all the pond would remain that's a part of the overlay however the developer has and has agreed to or is willing to agree to making that pond a public amenity in some form or fashion stocking it putting a walking trail around it making it available to the public that's one of the things that we've heard from the neighbors is some of them fish some of them you know they certainly want it to remain as a visual barrier between that the homes and the development but it can also be quantified as an amenity for the neighborhood and for the public. Additionally there will be a dry detention pond that will be placed at the back of the property to provide a further distance between the proposed Buckees and the the neighbor the neighborhood on top of that they have set back even further to add additional green space to get as far away from the neighborhood as possible. If you take a look at lot one which is the Buckees tract it's the triangle tract that's bordered by the road at the top and it's 11.67 acres the developer is proposing to preserve 50% of that acreage as green space and the pond amenity includes a land costs that the developer will incur of about 1.4 million dollars and that does not include amenities that would be added to that that pond like a walking trail. And I walk through some elevations for you this is a this is a conceptual elevation of what this project would look like with the buffer behind it and this is the the roadway through and then these are the parcels at the front towards I-35. Here's another view with where you can see the pond. Question in the back side. I'm sorry I missed him. Sorry go ahead. All right. The illustration that we're seeing right now is that above and beyond our landscaping requirement in terms of canopies, tree islands and things like that or Significantly the 50% green space is in addition to any landscaping requirements tree canopy requirements that we have as a part of the main development. Okay thank you. Councilmember Briggs. So I'm looking at this and I'm just curious why the gas station isn't in the front. That's a great question and the reason is because there's not enough space there's let me go back and show you the site plan. If you'll see do you see that pond up here and the this roadway has to come down and come through and this is actually a little bit it shows the pond overlaying the roadway but it really doesn't. There you go now you can see it better. They've moved the road as far towards the pond as possible and in order to see if they could get the buckies to the front but there's not enough space to get it up there. Additionally there's got to be space for a rinker road to come through which we'll talk about in a moment and the pad sites become basically useless property if if not fronting I-35. They're gonna they're not gonna be developed if it not fron ting I-35. Councilmember Wasney. Could we go back to the artist rendering please? I don't see any elevated light poles or light sources are they are they supposed to be there? Here's your one buckie sign out here by the highway at the very northern end of the property. You see it up there in the corner? Yeah so that would be the only elevated? But I don't know if they just haven't put that in yet we haven't really gotten that far along but I am gonna talk about lighting in a moment. Okay good thanks. I want to talk first about the access improvements along I-35. The developers willing to contribute two million in matching funds to upfront in order to expedite access improvements along I-35. And TextD OT has agreed to an additional 28 million dollar scope to make some improvements and I'll walk through specifically what those are in a moment and they're scheduled to be completed spring of 2018. I've received questions from a couple of you about what happens to those improvements if Buc-E's does not develop or if we do not provide an incentive. The improvement TextDOT has approved the improvements. We would need to find another source for that two million dollar local match but the timing would not change at this point. However having said that I do want to make sure that you all are aware that had it not been for the conversation about Buc-E's being interested in this site these developments would not be occurring. They're occurring in response to this potential development. There's three areas of access improvements and the first one is loop 288 and Mayhill Road. This particular area would go from and it would include four lanes in each direction two through lanes and two left-turn lanes and u-turns on each side of the intersection as well as pedestrian improvements. The Brinker Road would be extended under I-35 and would include two lanes in each direction a turn lane and u-turns and Mayhill Road would be improved to include a u-turn on the western side of Mayhill. In addition to that the project has other public infrastructure costs associated with it that we estimate to be up to about six point six point seven six point eight million dollars. They would include wastewater water improvements storm sewer and paving for the roadway that will come through there and city right-of-way dedication and then the the park pond amenity that would be made available as a public amenity. We did have a neighborhood meeting two of them actually on November 11th they were held back-to-back. We sent out invitations to property owners within 500 feet of the property which meant we sent out a hundred and twenty two invitations. We had 79 property owners represented 40% of them were within that 500 foot boundary so they're the neighbors that would be most impacted and 30% were in one of the two neighborhoods of Wind River Estates and South Ridge Estates and then 30% of the attendees were outside of the neighborhoods or were interested from the public in general. Amy real quick question and I don't know if you have it on a map up here but do you do you have a map because I know on the this the site plan or preliminary site plan that's not approved or just sort of conceptual in nature there's some red boundaries do you have anything that shows that 500 foot what all that encompassed as far as into the South Ridge and the Wind River neighborhood or I don't have that visually with me today but I can get it for you. Yeah just be curious to see to see that thank you. We talked we talked about several things in the neighborhood meetings including hours of operation the buffer requirements traffic and visual impacts and ways that we can mitigate visual impacts from the neighbors who backed up directly to the development lighting tax incentives and crime and I'm going to go into a little more detail on some of these things. Mr. App lin has made a very strong effort to be responsive to what we've heard from the neighborhood so far. He's hired a photometric engineer to do a design essentially this is the lighting design and it's used he's hired this engineer to mitigate light impact and he is required by our code to minimize to keep the impact below half a foot candle at every property line so there would be a half a foot candle brighter at the at the neighboring property lines and would be his requirement to not go above that. He has asked that phot ometric engineer to design the lighting so that it is zero foot candle difference that means that those homes will have no light impact whatsoever and that that exhibit is up front here for you to look at more closely it's impossible to see from where you're sitting you have to get right up next to it but I wanted you to be aware that he's already made that effort additionally he 's sacrificed if you will a 2.28 acre lot that would have been developed he 's he has excluded that lot that was in his first site plan from his most current site plan in order to mitigate distance concerns and get the Buckees building as far away from the neighborhood as possible and he is willing as I mentioned previously to provide the pond as a public amenity and to stock it and provide walking trails and he's willing to listen to the neighbors and work with the neighbors to get their input regarding the landscaping buffer and the m asonry wall in fact the property owner that lives 218 feet from the proposed building and mr. Applin has already called him personally and we've already been in touch with him with a city to have him come in and provide some input for us regarding how we can minimize the impact to to him and his neighbors you said a masonry wall yes sir that's correct the overlay required a broad-iron fence type rock wall is that going to require action on the part of council to change that the the masonry wall is a requirement because it is a large scale and a large scale development if it's over 40,000 square feet it requires the masonry wall the wrought iron wall is an overlay on that one side by the pond that supersedes the masonry wall requirement so it will be masonry on one side and wrought iron on the side with the pond can you kind of point that out on the map where the masonry would be and where the wrought iron would be the wrought iron is required on this side of the development we have had some preliminary conversations about because the the 50-foot landscape buffer is required on this side of the development as well and it where is it best to put that landscaping buffer and where's it best to put that wr ought iron wall and same on the masonry wall on the opposite side which is this link here it makes some sense that first thought to put the landscape buffer closest to the neighbors and then the masonry all masonry wall beyond that for visual impact but those are the conversations that we want to make sure that we talk with the neighbors about to to get their feedback and opinion about what would work best for them well and to add to that I think not on the Wind River side but on Southridge estate side they they just have concerns about headlights coming in so that's why yeah yes that is one of the the things that we talked to several of the neighbors about is this this drive in here and how we can potentially mitigate noise and and headlights of coming into that area question on that what is the cross hatch the red cross hatch with the white going across there yeah right that's an environmentally sensitive area this whole thing is and for the the roadway to come across here we're gonna have to address that in one of a number of fashions in the future I just I just didn't know what that was yes councilman Wasney and if there is a masonry wall and a wrought iron fence how are the neighbors from adjo ining neighborhoods gonna get to the pond well we haven't gotten that far yet but we've talked about providing some access up here right now they have no direct access to the pond unless they've put a back fence there and we will provide some the mr. Applin is willing to provide an access point right here for them to be able to get to the pond and provide some walking trails around it because I see the pond and the walking trails as probably being used by the visitors who park and want to walk their dogs stretch their legs so those are visitors to Denton not residents of Denton I agree that it would absolutely be used by the visitors as well but we have heard that the neighborhood would like to keep it and to be able to have access to it I gather it's being used right now by the neighbors I couldn't I couldn't tell when I looked at the property because of my vantage point do any of those folks whose property backs up to the pond or closer to that now do they have fences there do they have chain link fences or wrought iron fences or something else or how are we gonna deal with the fact if they have a fence or a wooden privacy fence and we're putting a fence right next to it how does well that's one of the things that we 've had some discussion about but haven't made decisions about yet because I think we would engage the neighborhood in how to address that they they have wooden fences out there now and those would remain and then we would provide as much buffer as possible all of the green space and then the m asonry wall would be closest to the Buckees development so the fence isn't going to be directly by you're gonna have that that landscape buffer which on I think the gentleman that's the closest it looked like there was a sort of a tree stand that just followed sort of the property line that's correct and in fact one of the things that we've really looked closely at is making sure that we can preserve all of those trees because that already provides a visual block for for the neighbors so as far as with the pond right now and I have to admit back in my younger days before anybody here owned that property that was a very good fishing hole especially at night the catfish bit very well but I mean right now it is private property so anybody that's if they're hopping their fence and going over I mean not yeah it's it's something that they're doing probably just on their own volition that whereas you're saying here there would be it would be a public space and I will tell you and and it's it 's little things like this that I think we don't really catch light of just maybe because we don't but when you start talking about opening up a pond to public space you never know what kind of liability you may incur as far as things such as that so it may be insignificant it seems but that's that's a big deal in that regard yes could you go back to the picture that shows the red lined space which is the wetlands there okay so if you'd put the arrow on that spot so that's all unbuildable anyway so that corner of the triangle you can't build on wetlands that's a FEMA rule and then the pond apparently if it's been there since Chris was a little boy it's been there for a long time so I would assume that in this this thanks a lot that my point is I would assume this is a natural drainage collection area and does that pond if in fact satisfy the development requirement for retention pond stormwater and the pond is intended to be on its own and not be for retention or stormwater and that's what the the triangle piece is down at the bottom here that would be a dry detention area that would be designed to capture all the runoff associated with the development and mitigate it without it impacting the pond so it can't double that I think is what it can't be keeping it there it's it's only keeping it there because it's in the overlay that if somehow somebody want to do something different with it it's not serving another purpose of detention it might be associated with the wetland or the ESA but it's in the overlay anyway so whoever no matter who comes here that's gonna have to be preserved that's correct okay could you go back to the that has the distances on it the the arrows it was hard for me to read all those I mean some of them look pretty long some of them look shorter than others obviously the 21 8 look shorter than all but what's the and these are measured from the edge of the building to the property line is that right and some of the parking lots a little bit closer but then some it's not that much go but do we have a is there an average is there a I mean or if we don't the farthest point to the triangle is 680 okay and across the pond is about the same okay about 600 okay okay so average maybe 400 feet 450 or and if we don't know that that's fine I mean that's it's good to have the do we know an average for 17 so the average is for certain okay all right okay so and I covered that slide covered that side all right let's I want to talk at a high level about a potential incentive we do have this posted in closed session as well and I've got some incentive analysis updates to provide for you and some more detail but I want an overview in the work session of what we're discussing so what we're talking about potentially is a rebate of a percentage of the local sales tax revenue that's generated by this project this means that it is no taxes that exist today it is no revenue source that exists today it would only be created if the project came the city would retain at least half of that sales tax revenue which is net new revenue to the city be approximately four hundred thousand dollars a year I'm sorry this this slide has a couple of typos on it I'll point them out the four hundred thousand is one of them it's missing a zero and so the four hundred thousand is a rebate or I'm sorry is the is the sales tax revenue that would remain coming to the city based on our current conversations of how we would structure a rebate with the developer the city would retain all the property tax revenue which is would be and that is incorrect as well I refigured that and it's closer to about two hundred thousand a year not 350 but the net benefit to the city would be almost a one cent the equivalent of a one cent property tax increase on all of our citizens across the entire city I wanted to point that out because I want to be able to communicate that this is this is a significant source of new revenue for the city at no cost to the taxpayer the in the additionally this project is the imp etus for the text on improvements that have been valued at about 50 million dollars the cost is going to be 28 but when it's all said and done we're getting that at a discount for a variety of reasons the incentive total would be based on reimbursement of actual infrastructure costs which you had in your backup where I'm rounding here but it's approximately five and a half million dollars not including the pond and their reimbursement of a text dot match which is two million compensation for the pond green space amen ity and one and a half million and an incentive to work with the neighborhood to continue to mitigate concerns a total hard cost to the developer based on this scenario is approximately nine million dollars so I want to briefly provide an overview of what other cities have done as well I've pulled four cities for us to discuss Fort Worth Terrell Royce City and temple all four provided sales tax rebates they were 38 percent 75 percent 85 percent and a hundred percent those are not in the same order as the cities two of those included the same rebate on all of the out parcels the terms ranged from 10 years to 20 years one provided a property tax rebate in addition to the sales tax rebate incidentally that was the one that had the tenure term so it essentially doubled the incentive in a shorter amount of time two of the four provided cash grants from five hundred thousand dollars to a million dollars no public infrastructure costs were paid by the developer with any of these four projects and in fact the city brought the infrastructure to the site in three of the projects and incidentally Buckey's you was able to utilize a hundred percent of their parcel for build out and development in each of these cases but they're willing to go down to 50 percent of the of their parcel and conserve 50 percent green space in this case I have some additional details on this that we can discuss in closed session if you'd like the current incentive proposal that we're in discussion today on is a hundred percent rebate until two million local text-up match is reimbursed and then 50 percent for a term of 20 years and the total based on that calculation today is approximately nine point four million and I am happy to take questions now but the remainder of my presentation is a close session customer was just clarification please on the text dot and the date specific spring of 2018 yes ma'am with this project without this project does that timeline change it does not the only difference basically is the two million that the city would have to come up with to pay text on that's correct but the timeline would be the same for improvements from text on yes councilmember Hawkins out of that nine point four million incentive what amount is specific towards infrastructure I think it was on a slide a couple of it just didn't catch it five point five million for infrastructure costs one and a half million for the pond and green space amenity two million for the text-up match and then did you have a dollar amount on that property tax increase if you know if everybody were to have a one cent property tax increase what is that dollar about eight hundred thousand dollars a year revenue to the city question I know on your because on the reimbursement of actual infrastructure costs I know in our backup that's the hard cost but there was also a 20 percent contingency and a construction management fee which those are typically built into every project what doesn't even matter when we do them we'll build in 20% and and so if I recall correctly that's really about 7 million on the when you include the the 20% contingency and the 3% construction management fee those are actually included in that number not included is the 1.5 million cost associated with the park and green space okay okay I sure thought I even somebody else had a question yes go ahead I 'll come back go ahead Dalton okay thank you all right alternate and see some of the the conversation some of the communications that we've had seem to confuse what the question is really before us and other questions because some folks for whatever reason don't like the idea of a travel center there if but but a travel center is allowed under the zoning that was approved in 2008 yes that is correct a travel center could be placed in this same location but it could be put as close as 50 feet to the houses is that correct yes okay would under the RCCD regional center commercial downtown would that allow for a truck stop yes it would so you could have it just a full-blown truck stop yes with lots of trucks now we have an anti idling ordinance so they probably couldn't be running their engines all night long anymore but a regular truck stop could be there with lights that are that are shining that is correct and they wouldn't necessarily have to come up with an enhanced lighting plan or would they no they would not because there's not an overlay that was passed in 2008 before I was on council now tell me about in 2008 when this zoning change happened were most of those homes that we see around the edge of that diagram were they there yes they were okay so so the conversation about the zoning is is is done that's correct I'm curious about the the the the incentive including 1.5 million for the lake are here is the city buying the lake no the city is not buying the lake however one of the conversations currently is the developers willingness to deed it to the city should we choose to accept it as part property which is a conversation left to left to be had still okay I think that's all the questions I am right now here council member Hawkins yeah I've had a ton of emails just about traffic and if you could just kind of you know point out I want to know where these roads connect to any of the neighborhood roads or how we expect traffic flow to go in and out of this somehow I missed this slide so I'm glad you asked this question the red arrows show the traffic flow in and out of this project it's not lined up obviously directly with the roads it's lined up parallel to show where it is there is no direct connectivity into these neighborhoods from this project there is connectivity to I-35 from three locations and then the inner road connects at the service road up at the top and then at the bottom it provides connectivity into the future apartment complex so let's say I did live in Wind River and I wanted to fuel up at Buc-Ease how would I get there I would take Lillian Miller out to I-35 access road and take service road go down from there that's how you would have to do it there would be no other way there well you could go through the apartment complex you could what you could cut through the apartment complex you can come up through the apartment river and then try to cut through and the private developments through unicorn Lake the Cinemark the apartment complex I got you well okay well on the traffic and see I think this is what because in your answer it's what we're all conditioned to be because Brinker stops on the other side somebody could go down if they wanted to they could get on May Hill Road somehow cut across come down the service road cut over a brinker and so and this isn't about I mean I'm not trying to say that the this enhancement of brinkers tied to the Buc-Ease it's been answered that it's not and so I think he understands that but the point is this will revolutionize that stretch from May Hill to I-35 regardless of who winds up here really who winds up here is also about who's going to be best for the city and that adjacent neighborhood from the current allowed zoning requirements that are there but this will relieve 288 I-35 they're gonna have two lanes going through two turn lanes each direction they're gonna have breaking I do have a question on brinker is it going to be signaled and if not when would it be signaled and if it is how do we make sure that that is very soon thereafter no matter what happens that that when that gets done that's that's a great question so text out will not approve a signal until it's been warranted in other words the traffic counts support it but we have no doubt that as soon as Brinker Road is is complete and this project is open that the traffic counts would immediately warrant it but we actually have to have traffic flowing there before they'll approve the signal well I guess in that respect regardless of who comes here are we able to work with text out to say look let's at least put in the infrastructure for the lights you know pull the conduit do something because the warrants are gonna be there shortly thereafter no matter what and I don't think they're gonna want to have to come tear up the roads that they just built to put it so I guess I would just put that out there as a suggestion to really work with our consultant absolutely we can do that yes and you know we've worked with our consultant to facilitate getting all these improvements included in phase one and we've got a good conversation going on okay all right yes councilman Wasney so our residents are clear it's zoned appropriately the way the zoning stands right now to allow this project but the squeal point is the amount and the extent of financial incentives from the city of Danton to the developer one and two developers going to need a sign variance for the bucky sign is that correct they will need a variance either a sign variance or a special sign district which either one of those requires a public hearing and approval and and that will be undertaken on its own as far as your squeal points the emails that I have received obviously are concerned about the incentives but the primary thrust of that concern is as a way to to stop the project it hasn't been so much well it 's okay for it to be here we just don't think it should have now those are the ones I've received I can't speak for anybody else so it seems like that's that's the only thing that really has to come before the city I mean they could build this if if this organization didn't want if they wanted to be here no matter what and and they don't have to do any of this that we're talking about now I mean they don't it's just 50 feet 40 feet keep the pond put up I mean so you're right and the sign variance yeah we haven't even really talked about that but that seems to be at least what I've been communicated to not maybe some people are for the project but against the incentives I just haven't seen haven't seen that at least in my email but that doesn't mean it hadn't been in y 'all's yes and on the sign right now how high can the sign be and what are they wanting it's the the ours our code allows 40 feet however that accounts for elevation changes and you'll see that the project is way below grade especially with the new elevations of I-35 they will ask for a hundred feet that's their standard sign is a hundred foot tall 25 foot round button that you can see before you get to town just for my sake and maybe for the public I just want to review what it just I think there's three or four bullet points on what the current zoning someone's able to do which is you have to have a 50 foot buffer we're not talking about what they're doing but just what it is now 50 foot buffer which before the rezoning which happened in 2008 it well that zoning afforded only a 15 foot buffer but what occurred in 2008 was the community coming together and working through and coming up with those arrangements at least at that time that's new people living there probably so I certainly understand that and I'm not trying to say that that's I'm just making that point 40 foot maximum building height well what was the height that could be on that kind of zoning do we know what the or is that close to it or 100 feet 100 feet what would be allowed without that overlay condition okay all right a hundred feet I knew that but I looked for verification the the the wrought iron with finials and brick columns on the side of the pond that certainly wouldn 't necessarily be required if it was just a regular straight zoning it would have been a wood fence or a masonry fan I don't know what we would have any screening fence was required oh well then okay it would have been wooden probably okay all right and I'm trying to think and there's no requirement under the current zoning to provide public access to the pond no there's not okay all right yes mayor protein thank you just another question about you brought up something mayor about folks moving in after 2008 after the big discussion had happened you know now we've set up something on our website so you could type in your address and you could see how close a gas well is to that address if you typed in an address of one of those houses there is there some way that you could see what the zoning is on your property and the zoning is on the property really close by there is there's a public feature on our website maps dot city of Denton dot com where you can see the current zoning you can see the future land use and zoning you can see property owner information you there's you can see gas well information I've not I've not tried to access that would that be hard to find easy to find easy to find but not really easy to use so we might look at creating a map similar an interactive tool similar to what we've done for gas wells for zoning I mean I'm just thinking about so many times we've had folks come up and say we had a case not long ago we're a person who bought a house and they said they said that that was going to be a pasture back there forever but it was land that the city owned for our expansion of the commodity resource storage area the landfill so you know and I feel I feel awfully frustrated and and I don't feel I have this frustrated as those folks do who feel like they were asking people that that should have been telling him shooting with him straight but that doesn't always happen so that there would be an easy way for them to go and see what the zoning was and then what that means as to what could be oh a truck stop could be there my understanding or my communication with the neighbors that back up to this project there they're informed they know that the the property is zoned commercial they just hope that it stays vacant as long as possible yeah we all do councilmember breaks I see on either side of the neighborhood too heavily treed lots over there are they zoned the same way let's go back to the zoning map there those the site to the south is the site to the north is our CR 2 and the site to the south the front parcel is the project that will be the apartment complex but the back parcel remains vacant there's a five acre buffer there between the apartment complex and the adjoining neighborhood thanks councilmember Hawkins are you allowed to speak on this I mean if you're not that's okay but this apartment that already has been approved do you are you allowed to say the height of that I just don't know it off the top of my head but I'm happy to get that information for you and I might have somebody in the audience that knows it nope I don't think I do I can send out some information about it immediately following getting for this televised meeting right now that would be awesome I'm not asking anybody to scramble but we're working on it Oh John fortune if you could pull up the map on this that you have here on your easel to the west the more west modern north west most part of that which is by the ESA there's a lot there that's a lot to up there it does yes because that's property that the developer has in contract and I don't know exactly where the ESA is oh so that's not part of the that's not part of the 38 acres or something it is it's a part it is it's a part of what they're purchasing okay there's some area up there that will have to be preserved because there's ESA there okay and then this big grove of trees that come down now that's not obviously part of this I see I never knew that I thought that that went all the way up to the service road because I know we've had talks with people before about that but because we had some okay all right any other questions for staff during this open presentation and I guess and I will take the chair will execute exercise a little discretion I know that the Beavers in the in here and present and if he wanted to respond I think we we had someone who was able to respond before the meeting so before the presentation so mr. Alvin if you'd like to respond to some of this you can if you don't don't feel you have to I just wanted to give you that opportunity the president of Buckees and so I appreciate being able to come visit with you guys and hear your proposal it's well done well thought out the staff's done an amazing job putting this together I'm available at any time to answer any questions I think as you look into this you will see that we've gone to pretty extensive efforts to try to make a commercial development on this commercial property that is aesthetically pleasing and that far exceeds all of the development criteria you've talked about 40 feet although you have to be a hundred foot away we're an average of 400 feet away and our buildings 36 feet so we're not even in that in that number of gas fumes came up we have all of the TECQ and EPA regulation we meet all the criteria for the systems that when you fuel the tanks that it puts the f umes back in the tanks as well as the fueling car so we meet all the standards on all of the fueling I think you'll find that it's a wonderful project the pond that is only if the city's finds that to be of use to be a park I went to the park that backs up right off of Lillian Miller today it's a beautiful little park in the neighborhood and they have a gazebo and they have a slide and they have you know the things that the kids crawl on the whole park idea was if the neighbors would like to use the lake if the community would like to use the lake and yes ma'am I think our patrons would also like to use the lake then I would be willing to donate the lake to the city or work out whatever kind of arrangement that all of your citizens could use it that by no means is has anything to do with what I'm here to talk about I'm just making it available and so most of the public infrastructure you were talking about our streets and land and utilities and and I'm not saying that the ponds worth 1.3 million I'm just saying that's what I paid for the land so that I'm not trying to sell it to the city if I did I'd sell it to you for a dollar so but I'm here to answer any questions if any you do have the lighting I'm glad that Amy addressed the lighting that's important and I've tasked my people to take the lighting down to zero foot candles at the property line even though that far exceeds the requirements the landscaping the green space this 12 foot wall that we're talking about building I talked to Jeremy who is a neighbor that lives 218 feet away and I think that's going to be a big buffer if we keep all of those trees which I intend to do the whole design pushes away far enough so that entire natural tree buffer which are beautiful oak trees can remain and if we do that then we put a 12 foot wall behind it then we stay 218 at this closest and over 700 feet at the longest between the green natural buffer the wall the distance and then the additional landscaping that I'm willing to put in - I think we can put our best foot forward I even recommended to Jeremy that I did it at my home I planted there's a vine that you can plant that climbs right up and we'll take a masonry wall and make it look like a beautiful green wall in two years that happened at my house so I think we'll make every effort and they're correct we're using 50% of the property but the project still works we're excited about being in Denton we 're excited about being on I-35E as you guys know we're building on I-35W and we're looking for a site here and I promise you you asked about the zoning I would not be here if this had to be rezoned I came because this property is zone commercial and fit my product my project and so you mentioned if there was any zoning to my knowledge there are no zoning issues. Councilmember Hawkins. Yeah I had two questions the other night this question came up and I know it's pretty simple but one of the residents just asked why why did you pick this site why did you pick Denton? I picked Denton because it's a it's a great community I need a really large population base for the hiring we hire a lot of people and we're a great job provider most of our jobs are full-time so that subject came up about why not in the more rural areas I I wanted to be before I-35E merges with W because already have a store on 35W so I'm looking between Denton and south of there it's very hard to find vacant commercially zoned property on I-35 corridor as you know they're rare this is a beautiful piece of property with Brinker without Brinker it doesn't work for our project and so and it was zoned appropriate so I think it's a awesome site. And do you have any interest if this were to happen to get involved with local local festivals local charities anything that's going on in our city I mean I know that's not your obligation to but I just wanted to ask that. We always try to be good corporate citizens there's a couple ways to do it one is I can field them as they come which I do but quite frankly I did something that I really really liked in another community that we built we had these same type of conversations it was a incentive based project similar size and what we settled on was rather than me field because you guys know the needs in your community better than I do what I actually prefer although it can be more expensive I think it gets to the right place is that I make a monetary donation every year in somebody that you guys decide in the community decides where it goes spreads it among the charitable organizations the needs rather than me making a decision from my office in Lake Jackson Texas y'all make the decision local but I provide the money and if you can get any other companies to match it or to participate awesome but I'll be the first the seed capital I guess you can come. Mayor Pro Tem. Thank you. What is in your business plan what is it that you look for in terms of the businesses that would be on the pad sites at the front? Well this is going to look completely different when when Brinker comes quite frankly I overlooked this site till the possibility of the text out improvements because it doesn't work for me but when text dot does Br inker whether I participate in that or whether you guys do it without me then it's going to look completely different and I look for this to be retail and restaurant dining primarily I would look for it to be set down restaurant dining and retail. Okay. We'll come back to you. Okay. Councilmember Briggs. Hello. We hear a lot about Corinth and Corinth not accepting a Buc-E's I'm not very familiar with that situation can you kind of explain what happened there or was there I'm just curious because I'm still a little bit at a loss for words as well but you're not twitching so that's good. It was different because I had to have a special-use permit it was zoned appropriately or I would have never gone but I had to have a special-use permit because to put sell fuel you had to have a special-use permit so we went there and the neighborhood across the street was able to convince a majority of the council members to vote against it. It was all over the news they had Facebook pages there were I think a 94% of the residences supported the Buc-E's but the more vocal minority and the council made the decision and and I don't second-guess it they made the decision to turn it down and so we're not incorrect. Were you willing to do everything for them that you have shown to be willing to do? Not even close. Okay thank you. But I did in fairness this property that property was little I had to use almost all of the property I have more flexibility here to offer more and and so not even close but but I have the availability because this particular piece of property. Mayor Pro Tem. I was trying to write both of the questions down but that's how you were answering the question I couldn't write the other one down so I it left me. What we what I understand is is that Buc-E's is a travel center. By the way I had my first Buc-E's experience a while back south of San Marcos so I understand it's it's it's basically a travel center that most of the patrons are folks that are using the interstate highway traveling down the road. Do you have any kind of statistics data on your customers do you know on average when you have a shop how many miles away the average customer? It's a moving target I don't know how far away but I know the last time I checked it what I did is I had to check credit card transaction was my only way to check and 96% of my transactions were outside of the zip code where the store is. Now that's a phenomenal number because what that means is that's other people's money coming in shopping in Denton if we do a store here so it's it was 96% of the transactions were traveling public and that's what our market is it's it's the traveling motorist that wants a great stop they want to get fuel they want to get something to eat they want a clean environment and they'd like to use the restaurants. So your fuel cost are they generally are you match the low every time? You match the low? Yes sir. Okay. Councilman Wasner. I have two questions and I did write them down. The first one is about the jobs. Yes ma'am . So the majority I would assume would be cashiers, inventory control, and food service. So what would be the average hourly wage that the jobs would bring to Denton? A great question. I'm glad you asked it because I forgot to offer it up. We believe that high wages get the best employees which make for the best experience at Buckeyes. So we pay 44% above the industry average our starting wage and so for the first time job the young person is getting a first-time job as a cashier the industry is seven and a dollars and 25 cents per hour we pay twelve to fourteen dollars an hour. So substantial difference and that makes a really big difference when a young person that's kind of income. So most of my jobs are full-time and that's the pay scale for the lowest wage and then it goes up if you get assistant manager, night manager, it goes up substantially but the bottom level inventory control, maintenance, janitorial, cashier starts at that number. I asked that because a lot of citizens have said the incentives from this city should be tied to high-paying jobs so I just wanted to clarify you know the average hourly wage. And I was there when that fella asked that. I happen to have a difference of opinion. He said that he didn't want to incentivize 14 hour, 14 dollar an hour jobs he wanted to incentivize tech jobs whatever that means and I told him I think that's great unless you're a young person making seven and a quarter and I think a fourteen dollar an hour job is a great thing. Second question we saw four Buc-E's listed and they all had financial incentives tied to them. Have you built any Buc-E's without financial incentives? No ma'am, no travel center Buc-E's. I have smaller stores. If I was building a typical convenience store the typical size we wouldn't be having this conversation it would already be under construction but these sites are so big and so expensive that this entire process is necessary to put in this kind of infrastructure and finance it so I've never built a Buc- E's without a financial incentive. Thank you. Councilmember Briggs. There's a lot of talk about energy use in our city now and I'm just curious when we're talking about lights or any kind of thing that you use do you consider do you do anything for energy efficiency on your sites? Yes that's a good question which dovetails into somebody asked a question I think it I don't remember this that is just a quick rendition to give you an idea of the look. There will be area lighting in the parking lot to meet the appropriate lighting but it will be significantly below the standards that are set with your codes and hand book but the lighting what I do for the environmental issue and for the your question is all of our lighting is LED so there are no there's no lights that I know of that are more enough that are more efficient to operate from electricity standpoint than LED so all of our lighting inside and out would be will be LED. How many Buc-E's are there? 36. Question on the on the jobs on those full-time jobs do they have medical benefits? Yes. So the the the $14, $12 to $14 an hour jobs also come with some level of medical. We have insurance available to all of our employees some people as you know if anybody's dealt with it some choose and some choose not yeah some young people and it seems to be a growing thing is this is you know they just don't want to participate in any insurance but yes we have insurance company-wide and we'll have we will offer insurance at this location as well. Okay any other any other questions or any other comments? I appreciate the time you've taken and I think it's wonderful that you ask all the questions you dig in I can't say enough about your city staff and in how involved and and how they've worked and and I will tell the tell you this they have worked very diligently to put the best product together for the neighborhood that it backs up and so I don't know how I could do anymore but they've got about all they can and so we've got as far as you can see and she explained we can't move any further because there's that road that has to be put through so we we've done all we can do and and and Amy and John and in the city you know all at the direction of George have have been very diligent it's been a great experience so I look forward to any more questions and hearing what you guys say. You bet. All right I think we have an answer to a question about height I believe thank you thank you for appreciate it. I'm passing around a site plan and elevations on the adjacent apartment project that's been approved and the height of the apartments is 45 feet it's three-story construction. Yes go ahead no no go ahead. Where would that be? Just on that map? It would be right here. Okay so it's not in the Wind River or South Ridge State backyard. It's right next to CentiMark it's between this and CentiMark that's correct. Okay thanks for doing this too I appreciate it. Absolutely. Bam any other questions? I thank Julie Wyatt sitting in the audience for that. Oh yeah. All right seeing no more questions that ends our public work session for this council meeting I believe you had three A, B, and C and so the council will now move into closed session as we in fact I'll tell you what let's take a let's take a five-minute break and we'll leave the blinds open and call the closed session when we get back. Come back at 430. you you you you you you you you you you you you you We are back in open session after our break and will now call the closed session so we will now convene in closed session at 433 p.m. on November the 17th 2015 to consider consultation with attorneys under Texas Government Code section 551.071 deliberation regarding real property under Texas Government Code section 551.072 and deliberation regarding economic development negotiations under Texas Government Code section 551.087 you Good evening I wanted to welcome everybody to this November 17th 2015 Denton City Council meeting it is 638 and we have a council member Kevin Roden who is joining us via video conference hello Kevin how are you can you hear us I can all right we don't use a good deal well our first item on the agenda is the pledges oh please stand with me if you're able to join me in the pledge to the US and Texas flag Texas flag I pledge allegiance to thee Texas one state under God one indivisible I'll come down for presentation before we go into our presentations I just wanted us to take a moment of silence to honor those in in Paris France who have experienced a tragedy over this last weekend and certainly we understand how that can grip your country and put a lot of people into grief so if you wouldn't mind just joining me in a moment of silence thank you all very much for joining me in that thank you we have a presentation of the National Procurement Institute 2015 achievement of excellent procurement award to the city of Denton materials management staff if we could have Elton Brock or Chuck Springer or both come on up and whoever's gonna whoever's gonna you're gonna be it okay okay fantastic it's all yours this is the 18th year in a row that the city of Denton staff has won this award in terms of it's been out for 20 years so they warmed up I guess the third year and have kept it up ever since they are one of 44 cities in Texas and only 65 cities in the United States to receive the award and to give you a little bit of background it recognizes organizational excellence and procurement and the criteria designed to measure innovation professionalism electronic procurement productivity and leadership attributes of the procurement function I want to thank the purchasing department for all their professionalism and for this award I want to thank the council one of the important items that's getting more weight in this award is electronic procurement the council passed an ordinance last year so we can accept bids electronically and do electronic signatures so that has assisted us in doing this if they can come down at least for the picture up we've got Elton Brock Rebecca Hunter Jennifer Bridges Cynthia Alonzo and Belinda Hawkins I'm sorry Belinda and the award this year I understand because it's the 20th annual is a crystal award so I'll let Elton hold it for everyone okay thank you thank you Chuck and thank you all for the great work that you do I mean this is this really shows our commitment to our procurement process so thank you all very much the Denton City Council has adopted rules of procedure including a code of conduct which applies to citizens as well as council members these rules were enacted to promote an orderly process and to preserve decor um here is a brief review of the rules that apply to citizens reports citizens will have four minutes to give a report there will be an electronic beep when time has expired if the remarks are not concluded by that time the citizen will be asked to stop speaking if the citizen does not cease and a second request is made the mayor will request to have the citizen removed from the council chambers citizens are asked to not approach the dais if a citizen has papers or other materials to hand out to the council please let the city secretary know and she will have a staff member distribute the materials to the council the Attorney General has ruled that council members may listen to citizens speak and may ask questions of citizens for clarification of the issue council members will not engage citizens in discussion of a topic because to do so could potentially be a violation of the Open Meetings Act when speaking to the council citizens are to direct all remarks and questions to the council as a whole and not to any individual member please refrain from making abusive personal impertinent profane or slanderous remarks anyone who violates this rule will immediately be removed from the council chambers citizens adherence to these rules will help make an effective presentation and will preserve the order and decorum of our proceedings copies of the rules of procedure are available from the city secretary there are citizens comments the first one agenda item 3 be one is Monica Jones regarding animal services code enforcement is Monica Jones here okay seeing Monica's not here next person is Christopher club bund apologize if I mispronounce that regarding Johnson's backyard garden work share program and farm update if you'll just state your name and address your time will begin thank you so my name is Christopher club Bundy I live at 5 11 Robertson Street Denton Texas and I'm here as the volunteer coordinator for Johnson's backyard garden which is one of Denton's local urban farms it's also one of the largest urban farms in the state I guess the reason I wanted to come here primarily was to add some excitement to the conversation about the urban environment intersecting with agriculture and just to kind of update you guys because I know certain members of the council had visited in early spring so I just wanted to bring some photos and some testimony as to how that project is going how the farm is going so the first term I 'd like to bring up is abundance it's one thing I try to stress when to all the volunteers when they come is that scarcity just seems to be a myth as it relates to vegetable production anyways we're able to produce so much we produce over 60 varieties of annual vegetables and we have just in this past year different herbs as you see basil various various vegetables for the various seasons fall summer and spring and we take them to the markets in Coppell Denton McKinney we have a CSA program which is like a vegetable subscription program and through that this past month Denton has been able to provide like our farm here in Denton has provided the share contents for over 250 families in the Metroplex share contents include up to 17 different vegetables all farmed and harvested here in Denton so 250 families in the Metroplex are being fed by produce here in the city and just in case y'all didn't know it's right down McKinney you take a left on Cardinal and it's right by the Loma del Rey apartments there nested kind of in the back it's a five acre farm soon to spread to another five acres on the power easement so like about 11 acres total here's just some photos I also wanted to bring up the work share program which I helped coordinate with my friend Ryan here the farm is primarily staffed by inexperienced laborers that's suburbanites like myself who have no farming experience we do all the planting we do all the harvesting we do all the processing we box everything and we we send it out so that's about like I said up to 30 unskilled laborers do this every week with about with four full-time staff members like I said we plant we harvest there's been a nice community forming this is a photo from a tomato battle we we use all our rotten tomatoes to to have an epic capture the flag game and so that's that's a great time all the volunteers it's it's really been like a place of community the farm has and this man here in the front his name is Howard he lives in the subsidized housing just we're literally in his backyard and he he loves being apart as much as he can also folks from Dallas have come for catered meals a celebrity chef hosted a big meal and I'd like to just suggest that this farm is an asset to the city and I'd like to potentially just take the opportunity to encourage our dreaming concerning like food sovereignty in this city specifically we're doing some really innovative things here that's all thank you couple questions councilmember Hawkins thank you mayor thanks for doing this Chris I was one of the three council members who got to go on the field trip with Dalton and former Jim Engelbrecht and we learned I learned a ton it was a lot of fun I was just curious what are some of your biggest challenges that you've been having maybe over the summer here let's see we can't harvest all the tomatoes wow yeah it's a great problem let 's see really I'd say I would love to we're in partnership with singing Oaks Church of Christ it's their property and they lease it to us in exchange for vegetables for their food pantry and so it's been a real goal of mine to like try to get their congregation involved more so that's kind of been a personal challenge just to try to invite them to be more part of the farm other than that I'm sure I think it more but no that's cool thanks for coming out tonight yeah councilmember Briggs so how does how does one volunteer like if somebody wanted to sign up how would we go about doing that so there's two ways one is you could go to the Johnson's backyard garden dent in Facebook and there's a link for online sign up and it's got the whole week laid out in different times we work in four-hour shifts from 8 to 12 or from 1 30 to 5 and I feel dimension that the work share volunteers get a share of veggies for their for their help but um or you can just call me I give people my number all the time it's a great program thank you yeah okay I see I see Kevin way is okay to get you and sure Johnson you want to take it yeah we'll go ahead and we'll go ahead and take you Kevin you're gonna jump right in so go ahead councilmember Rodin I apologize for that thank you it's good to see you Christopher thanks thanks for this presentation it's enlightening you mentioned two things I wanted to ask you about one was about you using an energy line easement I think and so my question was whether that required any sort of approval from the city because that seemed to be a pretty creative use of space but the second question I'll just throw out there and then let you respond is you mentioned this concept of food sovereignty and I'm curious for you to spell that out a bit more okay great great so the power line easement is space where we have to be ready at any time for electric municipal electric trucks to drive through our space and so we've given we've allotted like a good space for a road and I think Ryan could be a little bit more clear about that question concerning permissions but I just know that so long as we give access to the space I don't think we haven't had any issues and the trucks drive up and down all the time we just try to give them ample room as far as food sovereignty is concerned I there's a lot of talk about localizing the production of goods and services with the whole local movement and like the the Denton community market is I guess coming up in popularity and in demand and so this notion that we can localize the production of goods and services but also food that we can become food sovereign in a sense I've been doing some research looking at Cuba as a case study for urban agriculture and after the Soviet Union collapse they have been forced to integrate urban agriculture into their daily lives in a very real way so that they could survive and the city of Havana produces 80% of its own food and so food sovereignty is just this notion that food is better for us and when we can I guess have some sort of agency when it comes to the way it's grown and as consumers we we've started to demand a certain degree of purity or authenticity when it relates to food that really local food production is the only thing that can supply the consumer demand because we demand all sorts of different things related to chemical inputs and things that localized food production is the only way to satiate that demand we have another question councilmember Johnson thank you mayor so Chris I don't know if you remember when I met you but you're with my good friend Andres just I just want to thank you for who you are and what you do and your humility this guy walks up to me at my office we were having a grand opening party and they walked up and said hey you guys you having this food left over could we have it that's what you guys sit on eating there oh no it's not for us and I found out that they basically take care of a bunch of homeless people without wanting any attention or you know any look at me and well there's a guy sleeping in my van right now and so I've gotten to know Andres very well your friend and but I just want to thank you for what you 're doing here but also for what you do without wanting any attention for it so I appreciate that the other thing I was going to ask councilmember Rodin if you could say one small step for man one giant leap sorry yeah thank you very much Kate Canaveral right Chris thank you very much for for all that you do thank you very much thank you thank you our next speaker will be Ryan Crocker regarding farming the city parks urban farming in Denton hello council my name is Ryan Crocker excuse me I'm a little under the weather and I live at 728 North Elm Street and I wanted to come by today and talk to y'all I was really encouraged to see that the 2030 vision plan included urban farming and that you guys are supportive of that of urban farming in Denton growing and the reason I wanted to come by and follow up with what Chris has already presented is just to throw an idea out that we've been tossing around at the farm about expanding the program of farming in the parks there's a project at Bow ling Green Park that I was interested to learn more about but the vision was that that each neighborhood could have you know access to a neighborhood farm and access to volunteer opportunities and CSA shares in their neighborhood if we were able to have access to some parkland and do multiple gardens and manage those collectively with support from from our existing farm so that was a that was basically the vision that I wanted to throw out there and just see what you guys had to say and if there's any direction you could point us and in terms of who the right contacts would be at the parks and rec or what ideas you guys have okay we have a couple of questions sure mayor pro tem Gregory thanks you know the thanks for pointing out that the urban farming is part of the 2030 plan and it's also local food production is part of our sustainability plan also go back to looking at the slides that we saw talk to us a little bit about water use how you use it in a way that that's efficient and conserving where you get your water from yeah we've been able to work with the city water department and have come up with a pretty creative solution for our water needs because we're farming 11 acres we need quite a bit of flow to irrigate and so we're actually using a temporary meter off of a fire hyd rant to supply the farm with our irrigation but on an acre or less we can get away with even up to two acres we could get away with a regular outdoor hose spigot for irrigation so really the only thing we would need is access to some land in these and then how do you how do you irrigate the the crop so that okay you you don't waste water we use drip irrigation which minim izes evaporation because it's just dripping right into the root zone of the plant instead of spraying it up in the air with a sprinkler so we use all drip irrigation and everything is just slow soaked that way and for soil enhancements to make those crops grow bigger what do you do we use we were a certified organic farm so we can only use NOP national organic program approved compost and other inputs so we have you know strict list of the approved inputs but we use mainly compost okay would that include compost from the city landfill I don't think that's approved for us to use okay yeah but we have sources for compost that we get thanks for what you're doing my youngest daughter was a volunteer at Johnson family garden down in Austin yeah yeah council member Briggs you you asked about bowling green yeah park yeah well my mother has had a spot there it's a community garden for and it's like $20 a year for the spot and the city supplies the water you bring your own hose and then they till it that they the city tills the soil there the beds each each year so it's pretty it's pretty good yeah and that's been going it's been going on for a really long time yeah like at least 10 over 10 I know for sure the only issue is that you have some vandals that run through and pick all the okra I don't I think there's plenty of okra yeah but you know get the melons and throw them and I think that that's pretty much that's pretty the main issue is the the vandalism there but as far as the other neighborhood parks one of the things that I saw are suggested was in our neighborhood there is a substation that eventually will be not needed because of the new one on Kings Row but it's in the middle of the neighborhood and I thought how neat it would be if we can use these already plotted lands in the city for things like that you know children's gardens and things like that so it might be something to think about yeah thank you appreciate it you bet thank you Kevin any questions okay all right we're gonna go on now to the additional citizen reports and just for the council and for my own benefit Kevin what I'll try to do is as we get requests to speak sort of maybe lay out who's in the queue so that when you raise your hand you'll sort of have an idea of where you are so it's gonna take me a little bit of time to get used to this high-tech yes sir okay so we've got four cards I believe on our agenda item 3c and I believe that's four minutes and so when I call your name come down and give your name and address and your time will begin first card is Ken Gold mayor members of the council my name is Ken Gold I live at 2512 Natchez Trace here in Denton I'm here tonight just to urge to plead that we slow the train down on the DME gas-fired generators I think we need to adequately vet this issue out with the community I know you're getting feedback from the citizens I'm talking to a lot of people myself there's a lot of questions out there a lot of strong feelings I think a public hearing on this issue is indicated clearly I think it's a hot topic that a lot of people have opinions on and they wish to make sure the council understands where they stand if you are like me and a big fan of open and responsive government this is the clear next move I think you need to take on this there's a discomfort in myself and a lot of people that much of this is handled in closed sessions and I think a little daylight right now would be in order and I don't have a full four minutes to share with you okay thank you see no request to speak all right thank you thank you Ken the next speaker will be Misty Gold state your name and address and your time will begin Misty Gold 2512 Natchez traced in Texas 76210 I guess I could say ditto I've been with my husband to a couple meetings now recently and there's a lot of conflicting information out there about this gas generator and where it will be located and how the land will be obtained for it and I think a public hearing would shed light and I would greatly appreciate y'all arranging that thank you all right thank you appreciate that thank you the next speaker will be Aleta Thomas please come down state your name and address and your time will begin hello my name is Aleta Thomas and I live at 1700 Willowood Street in the Denia neighborhood this past Sunday almost 100 citizens showed up to Keely Briggs district true forum on the renewable Denton plan the forum was billed as Denton's energy future the benefits of 100% renewable thanks miss Briggs and thanks miss Wasney for attending I was so encouraged by the diversity a number of citizens who came out to learn more Denton is made up of an intelligent bunch of people who believe that we the citizens should decide what is best for our city we're at a crucial crossroads in our city's energy future a decision that will affect our city for the next 50 years this decision should be arrived at with thoughtful input from the residents who will be affected by it I am puzzled why City Council is determined to shut out the public from this important decision and urge you to hold a public hearing and to put the brakes on all aspects of this plan until citizens have been given the opportunity to study the issue at hand and to express their views to you our council many of the concerns that were expressed were about the emissions from the two plants we already have the worst smog pollution in the DFW area why would we want to add more pollution to our air tomorrow a group of dedicated citizens will begin block walking campaigning to educate the citizens of our city about the renewable Denton plan at the same time we will be distributing material thanks to Phil Williams about the green sense program and encourage DME customers to sign up for the 100% renewable option many of us are also taking advantage of the incentives offered to add solar and to make our homes more energy efficient as someone who is in the queue for solar panels I can report that there is about a hundred thousand dollars of rebate funds left of the 180,000 allotted on October 1st we want to work with you to make all Denton a clean livable city with greater citizen awareness we can continue to conserve and improve energy efficiency conservation efforts are always the least expensive first steps to meeting energy demands thank you we have a question councilmember Wasney thank you for coming forward this evening question for staff and mayor do we have a date for a public hearing I don't think I don't think yet I mean I think we requested that last week so we have an agenda we don't have a date at this point at this point yeah okay I see no more questions thank you very much yes thank you our next speaker and the last card that I have for this is Ed Sof if you'll come down state your name and address your time will begin good evening my name is Ed Sof I live at 1620 Victoria here in Denton a growing number of your constituents are concerned about the lack of public participation and discourse in the matter of DME's proposed 225 million dollar power project there were all of 70 odd public comments made on DME's website that's out of 45,000 subscribers your constituents are concerned about the lack of expert information and analysis beyond that which has been created by DME staff there is concern about the economic risks associated with the long-term operation of these gas-fired generators the costs of maintenance the volatility of gas prices the financial impacts of future air emission regulation and of imminent federal mandates to control methane leaks at the fracking wells that produce the fuel and concern about the future reality that Denton's carbon footprint must be reduced not expanded there is concern about the potential for early and costly obsoles cence of these plants there is concern about the amount of air pollution that these plants will emit in an area that's already designated as not a non-attainment area and into air that is already graded F in health quality by the American Lung Association what are the future health costs of all of us to all of us because of our worsened air quality has DME given you those figures some have dismissed the air quality impact of these plants by blaming the pollution problem on the foul wind that blows in from the Metroplex and the exhaust of cars and trucks on I-35 evidently those persons are not aware of the pollution produced by the drilling fracking processing and transporting of natural gas right here in Denton it's not about where the pollution comes from it's about the fact that it is already here and people do not want to breathe more of it the dismissal of this concern is like a doctor who tells you that it's okay to smoke more cigarettes because you're already smoking like other municipalities involved in similar projects to use more clean renewable energy Denton really should engage outside independent resources for long-term cost benefit analysis from the standpoints of future economic environmental and public health impacts let's lock in now the 70% renewables but let's get some answers to some very very important questions before spending all that money on land infrastructure plant construction and a very uncertain future your constituents have yet to hear from you a convincing argument why that should not be done thank you we have a question so councilmember Wasney thank you question so you support this council in hiring an independent energy analyst consultant to weigh all the options that the city may have some that may not have been considered to this point yes yes I do and I stress independent second question once a decision has been made do you approve taking this to a vote on election day I cannot say that right now because I really haven't thought that much about it but I I can say that depending upon the depth of that involvement the public must be involved and I think that's what many feel is is is the big problem right now that we've been really shut out of a process the public has been shut out of a of discussions about the very that the of a energy plant that they own it's a municipal energy facility and it's owned by the public but we are the last people who have really been considered in this and I would encourage this council to schedule a public hearing as soon as possible to allow our citizens to come and talk to us and that's what a public hearing is for and I would appreciate getting that on the count calendar as soon as possible all right mayor pro tem Gregory just a couple more questions if the person was just tuning in tonight and watching the council meeting or sitting in the audience and watching it and didn't go to one of the information meetings that didn't municipal electric had they might assume that the plan that they put forward called renewable Denton doesn't reduce air quality air emissions are you aware that that plan does call for reductions in areas I'm not convinced that it does also you and I'm not arguing it 's just I don't understand how it is and no one has been able to explain to me how it is doing that they give me figures that it's taking 81,000 cars off the road but that that's they're not tough that doesn't tell me that our air is not going to be made worse by these emissions okay and when you were talking about folks having input you are aware that there were over 40,000 invitations set out to to the DME customers about those two meetings right correct just wanted to make sure all right so thank you and we're still gonna I'm not I'm not I 'm not accusing the DME of doing anything to keep this information away from the public I'm simply saying that there are a lot of questions that need to be answered we and we certainly want to hear those questions and we certainly want to give answers good thank you thank you Councilmember Johnson thank you mayor and thank you for coming and talking to us you're always very polite and kind and I appreciate that good night what's that it's a good night I think you always are so you mentioned that you feel like the public has been shut out of the process so it seems like in your comments that there's an assumption that like our plan given that we just started talking about this publicly is like to hurry up and vote on something in a closed session I mean ultimately before this ever got to a vote there would certainly be a public hearing am I right in saying that I mean we can't go vote on something like this without a public hearing well we need to know that so I mean I think that's just a matter of course well a lot of people don't know that and a lot of people know that this has been in the pipeline for a long time and that we're just now finding out about it and then being told that it's come hell or high water it's coming and as it said we want to slow the process down and get these questions answered yeah and so I'll ask you a question are you aware that there's probably a lot of work that's been going on but you you you reach a point where in any something you 're gonna build or something you're gonna buy there reaches a point where then it's time to talk about it in the public so I think we're certainly at that point that's that process has begun but it just seems like in your comments I just want to make sure I understand you that you're you're feeling is that this decision has already been made and somebody's trying to hide it and we were gonna just like vote in secret or something no no no no no I'm not that far gone yet no this is just a this is simply a matter of this is the perception of the public that's all I'm saying and I've communicated with some of you about this already and I'm hoping that by sharing these insights with you that it will promote more dialogue and less anxiety on the part of the public thank you right thanks appreciate it thank you all right that concludes our presentation for members of the public agenda item we will now proceed to agenda item number four which is consent agenda I know we're yeah we're pulling something councilmember Haw kins hope I get I think I'm gonna make a motion here to move consent agenda items a through double J but we are pulling C D and double E is that correct C and double E okay okay mayor pro tem second okay we have a motion in a second we're gonna vote on the board and Jennifer it when we've all and Kevin this is also for your benefit when all of us here have voted it's not going to show up on anybody's screen but yours but you'll give me a signal and then Kevin I'll go ahead and ask you to vote and then we'll register that vote as we put it on the board is that correct okay all right well let's let's vote on the board then please and Kevin your vote by all right so Kevin Kevin's vote is yes so if you would enter that in madam secretary so we have a unanimous vote for the consent agenda item save items C D and double E and so we'll move on to agenda item number C on the consent agenda which is now an item and item for individual consideration C&D both okay all right let me get to the right page on the agenda okay yes right here okay yeah agenda item C is considered option of an ordinance amending chapter 23 of the city of Denton code of ordin ances by adding article 5 and agenda item number D is considered option of an ordinance of the city of Denton Texas stabbing fees for non-consent towing within the city of Denton pursuant to chapter 23 are we gonna present these at the same time thing mayor I think lieutenant David Mays can present both of them you need to need to vote on individually yes after that and you have one other speaker after that thank you lieutenant nice yeah yeah yeah you need any help there we got we got reinforcements you're good I didn't get it to him in times all right well I'm excited to come and speak with you today my name is David Mays I'm with the police department the thing that excites me about this is this this these two items were the culmination of a lot of citizen effort and a lot of input and compromise on different sides and so it it really is fun for me to get the opportunity to do this a little bit of background in case someone's allowed sorry in case someone's joined us late in this argument this issue was first brought to the council back in March of 2015 Pat Smith was representing a dent for fair towing they questioned the the the fees that could be charged individuals who had their vehicles taken say your apartment apartment complex you're not authorized to be there so a non-consent toe at the time that we face right now without this ordinance there's nothing that governs the amount that can be charged locally it's based on state law so the only thing that we govern as a I'm sorry the only thing we govern as a city is police initiated toes those are the toes on accidents things like that where the police call out a vehicle vehicle stalling the roadways something like that and that's set at a hundred dollars and as I said in my previous presentation that number would change the same amount with this one just so we can be consistent be fair to the towing companies but I digress so the allowable state fees it's based on the way the vehicle a light duty tow was raised in March my understanding is to $255 it was $250 that's most of the cars that you're going to tell that you're that's in most apartment complexes or most shopping centers that's the kind of cars you're gonna have out there's less than 10,000 pounds if it's more than that is considered a medium duty tow up to 25,000 pounds $357 heavy duty tow that's gonna have to do with your your very large vehicles over 25,000 pounds TDLR also and I didn 't explain this Texas Division of Licensing Regulations they also have storage charges for vehicles that are put into vehicle storage facilities and those can be between five and twenty dollars notification fees which is then being up send out certified letters before they auction a vehicle you have to send out to if you're a if you're a private party in these types of situations they can charge $50 for that to recoup the cost of what those notifications cost and then an impoundment fee of up to $20 so and like I say the state law this is the state law references 2308 2303 I've got a hyperlink but I'll save you the the yeah anyways that has to do with mr. Campbell's home don't do it okay but that has to do with the licensing and regulation of towing and booting and also the 2303 has to do with vehicle storage facilities so those are both license that are both regulated by the Texas occupations code in those chapters anyways on March 18th council was briefed initially the thing that came back from that was there was a push to find a citizen group that could look into this issue that represented towing companies business owners property owners and also citizens who were affected by this I had a vested interest what came back was this is the towing committee and I don't know if I have anybody here from the I have mr. Smith here he was here for didn't for prayer towing you know this is a couple of different towing companies on there there's also some property owners these people sat down at a table between July 7th and September 10th and weighed out this issue and there was a lot of give and take on all the different sides of what would be fair for this side what would be fair for this side I'm happy to say that the work that they did came to what we have today is this ordinance and you know it was a it was a nice process to get to sit in there and and kind of help to keep everything on task but to watch these people work together and come to this it was the democratic process anyway so what came out of this is you have TD LARS fees on the right there and then the article five fees so these are maximum fees by TD LARS standards the light duty tow that under 10,000 pound vehicle two hundred fifty five dollars the way this ordinance is written the give and take was a hundred forty five dollars of what they came up to that's the maximum now that was based on the Morningside survey Morningside research did a survey for TD LR back in 2010 which was updated in 2012 those numbers that came out of that research were basically they were handed to our finance department who used a consumer price index adjustment to come up with the fees that you have here if you'll notice that there's a drop fee attached to that of seventy two dollars for that vehicle that's half the amount that's the state standard is they've said it at half the amount of the vehicle tow so in the other instance it's two hundred fifty five dollars it goes to hundred twenty seven fifty so that's a that's based on a rule by TD LR it's not a law but it is based on rule you'll look down through there you've got the in pound fee the certified mail fee the reason why we didn't change the impoundment fee is because the city didn't charges that for our article four stuff so we're trying to be consistent we didn't want to say hey the police department's been charging this for years we're going to tell you you can't so we were trying to be consistent between all the different parties involved and that has to do also with the storage so the $20 were there any questions about that okay okay I'll keep moving on there's also a towing bill of rights that came up with I provided the council with just so that the people here I won't let me do it and I apologize but that's a document that will have to be displayed inside the the VSF at the at the pay window that explains the rights of the consumer it also has QR codes so anyone with a smartphone doesn't have to type in the address to these different locations whether it's the city didn't website or the TD our website that explains all the fees that can be charged all the rights that people have that has to be displayed so that helps people to know where they're at and that basically covers it I didn't go into the depth of the ordinance because I did that previously and I didn't know if you wanted me to do that today CND is that correct okay all right any any questions councilmember Wasney so just to be clear so our citizens understand we've had a substantial decrease in the towing fee in Denton Texas light duty tow and medium duty tow yes ma'am the tow prices have they were decreased and that's based on TD or basically a municipality can regulate the amount that they're able to charge for those types of prices set a maximum ceiling for their municipality for toes that occur within that that city based on a review of information has to do with the county practices and whatnot we based ours based on the morningside survey because they had to do with the entire state of Texas so but yes ma'am that's that's the ceiling numbers for them I know the citizens are happy so yes ma'am and like I say and I working with the different groups watching the people compromise the thing that we came up with here was a lot of give-and-take and so it was it was nice to see this come out and see what people were willing to came from different sides of an argument come to a consensus on an item and that's the power of a citizen committee so thank you very much yes all right thank you and we do have a card to speak Pat Smith if you'll come down state your name and address your time will begin thank you thank you for that presentation yes sir you bet good evening council members I'm Pat Smith 1417 Cambridge Lane I just want to commend lieutenant Mays and the city staff for the effort they've put forward and crafting I think which is an exceptionally good piece of work the city attorney and her staff was also very involved as well as the city prosecutor and I think the lieutenant Mays communicated there's a very accurate depiction of the process that we used good government was practiced and I think then it's gonna benefit from this ordinance if you support passing it tonight and I would encourage you to do so thank you a couple of questions councilmember Hawkins I don't know if it's a question well do you know that I feel like you just do incredible things for the city you're just real humble about it and quietly just get things done I just really impressed by you so thanks man you're welcome yeah pleasure okay councilmember Johnson thanks well Pat did you know that I think this is a great example of the way that you've approached this from the first time you came and talked to us about it you didn't accuse the towing companies of being bad people you didn't make accusations about them you didn't say that they're taking advantage of people you said here's an issue I think it's something we need to look at an address and I just want to thank you for your approach and and I want to thank you Hayes because Mays because the what you said was so powerful you said everybody got in a room and they compromised and that's that's how things get done so I really appreciate your leadership on this Pat and you're welcome and for your comments and the way that you've treated everyone through the process thank you and I just have one quick comment I really do appreciate the inclusion because I think you know when we first started having this conversation that was something that was was paramount was the tow operators to ensure that you know they had a voice in it and I think the process worked I have great faith in the process so thank you for this and also thank you for everything else that you're doing for the city and all the other issues we're wrestling with thank you Pat very much okay so we're gonna take two votes we're gonna have to vote on a C and D and I think I'm gonna change the procedure a little bit but can you can you see Kevin's you see you can see it so Kevin when I call for the vote you just raise your paddle up and do whatever you need to do and Jennifer you just register without me having to call him at the end I think that'll go a little bit more smoothly so let's go ahead and vote on the board please we need a motion oh I'm sorry mayor pro tem well I'd like to move approval of item 4c and make a comment or two about it yes sir I think that that this is a just another great example this is not the first time or the second time or even the third or fourth time in my seven years on the council that we've had citizens that have brought a concern to the council and the council gets the citizens working with staff and bringing in the various stakeholders who sit together who consider each other's concerns and we come out with a better ordinance and better rules than we had before benefiting all the citizens this is certainly going to benefit some folks who have been the subject of for lack of a better term predatory towing practices but there is also the needs of property owners who have their property in one way or the other trespassed on some from time to time by folks who are parking there without permission so they're they're all different parties have have needs and all of them got to sit at the table and and have a voice and again there was compromise so I'm just proud that this is to be part of this process part of a process that's been going on for a long time in this town and that I suspect will continue to go on so with that I move approval all right councilmember Hawkins yeah and I was hoping since Kevin had such a big deal with this and since he looks like he's on the set of Golden Girls I could let him second it do you want to second it Kevin can you hear us Kevin sure I'll second it all right he's got it on mute out here I have a feeling okay so we have a motion and a second from councilmember Rodin let's vote on the board please to get that Jennifer did you get Kevin's try it one more time Kevin go ahead and stick it up there one there you go yes okay motion carries seven zero then we'll go on then to agenda item D of the consent agenda item which is an item friend we just need a chair would entertain a motion and a second mayor pro-tem Gregory move approval of item 4d councilmember Haw kins a second we have a motion and a second for agenda item 4d let's vote on the board please just hold it right there Kevin she's got it now all right motion carries unanimously we will now go on to consent agenda agenda item double E which is now an item for individual consideration and I will now read the item consider approval of a resolution of the city of Denton Texas affirming a support of the Texas Department of Transportation's planned widening of FM 426 McKinney Street thank you mayor our director of transportation Mark Nelson is here to council assets history removed from the consent agenda and we'll give a brief explanation of what the purpose of this resolution is yes sir I'll be as brief as possible mayor members of council appreciate the opportunity to come before you this evening as mayor stated this is a resolution supporting or affirming the city's support for FM 426 the regional transportation council has this past summer in June passed a or came up with a policy related to milestone projects milestone projects are those projects that may be in the neighborhood of 10 years or older and have not made it to the construction cycle as of yet so in terms of looking for additional funding to advance projects that are still valid they have requested agencies to identify those projects and provide a support resolution indicating that a particular project is still valid and and then also indicate a schedule as to when that particular project may be advanced so with that the FM 426 McKinney Street has fallen on that milestone project we took an item or we took this particular item to the mobility committee last week mobility committee did support by a three to zero vote that council consider positive vote for this resolution indicating that 426 still is a valid transportation projects in our community so with that I'll take any questions that you may have mayor pro tem understanding farm to market road 426 is what we in town call McKinney Street that is correct and it is a two lane street from Audra from the intersection of Audra on one side and Wood row on the other side going east to the city limits that is correct just and that means that it's only two lanes in front of Ryan High School correct has no curbs and gutters no sidewalks bar ditches on either side correct and you said that about ten years ago what happened well ten years ago this project was advanced by the text art area office which is the Denton area office and it has been a project on there on their list to advance as part of the transportation improvement program and why did text dot do that why didn't the city just do it well because it is a it's an on system it's a state road on system text out roadway so it's theirs and it's not the city currently it is the text out roadway yes okay so and for one reason or another after the money was allocated it just didn't get up in the high enough priority it with text on to to actually turn dirt and make the project happen as far as I understand yes sir okay now lately we've been talking in the mobility committee about the possibility of if text doc still can't get it up in their list high enough to make something happen that we have another alternative could you talk about that correct yes sir mayor pro tem as you excuse me as you stated there is a there has been some discussion at the mobility committee to determine if if this particular project could be pulled or this particular roadway could be pulled off system in other words it become a state a city a city facility a city roadway rather than a state roadway and if that were to happen there'd be a potential to advance the project in a little more timely manner and an important part of that move would be if we assumed responsibilities for it we would also be able to take the money that has been designated for that road as a part of that so that we could move that project forward and get the construction done in a more timely fashion that's correct okay and then how does this resolution fit in with that so essentially what the RTC is requested as part of their policy is that our policy board submit a resolution along with a schedule to to the R TC indicating that it's it's still moving forward we can also come back to council if necessary to request that this come off system and take the ownership of the particular roadway okay thank you councilmember Briggs well I would like to thank you mr. Nelson and and mr. fortune for continuing to pursue this project it is extremely important to myself and many other parents of the children that attend Ryan and yes it is still very a valid project so this is a first step and I thank you thank you okay any other questions no further questions the chair would entertain a motion councilmember Briggs I'd like to make a motion to double E all right mayor pro tem second we have a motion and a second for agenda item four double E let's vote on the board please that he passes unanimously I hope we're recording this with the little paddles okay we're gonna move on to our items for individual consideration agenda item five which which is consideration consideration can't even speak consider approval of a resolution creating an ad hoc City Council committee to consider and review operations procedures policies regulations and naming of the City of Denton Community Event Center thank you mayor I'll ask mr. Nelson to step back up to the podium and explain this item to the council and seek your direction thank you again mr. Campbell may remember the council this particular item is as mayor stated a resolution establishing a ad hoc committee to assist with the design operation and naming of the Denton Community Event Center as discussed last month with council looking at plans or advancing plans for a facility at 121 exposition essentially at the corner of exposition and Hickory as part of the briefing last month the council requested that staff bring back a resolution establishing this ad hoc committee ad hoc committee would allow the major point three members to serve until the design and construction is completed or until January of 2018 so with that I'll stand for any questions that you may have on this particular resolution we've got mayor pro tem Gregory scheduled on cue for now it's not so much a question is I just wanted to offer up that we had in our previous discussion we talked about of the people to serve on that that it would be appropriate to have the councilmember in whose district it lies lays so that would be councilmember Roden and and I'm looking to see if he's nodding that he wants to be on that committee yes and and I would offer my name if it would please the other members of the council sure and so we need one more is that it is it are we taking names for this resolution or do we do that some other times that okay to do that now it's the next item on the engine oh I'm sorry okay all right got you boards and commissions I knew I had one there all right fair enough okay any other questions on this agenda item chair would entertain a motion councilmember Johnson had to get in the game I would move approval mayor pro tem oh go ahead yeah I'm sorry no I'm good I'm good only in seconds all right we have a motion in the second let's vote on the board for agenda item 5a place motion carries 7-0 what oh it's 7-0 because Kevin Kevin voted yes it's showing 6-0 on the board all right we got it squared away may question yes you said you needed you started to say we need one more yes agenda item B which is considered nominations appointees to city boards and commissions mr. city managers are I mean I guess madam said it's sex city secretary mayor and council there are several nominations that are available this evening one is on the parks recreation and beautification board mayor Watts has nominated Francis punch for that position traffic safety commission Brad Hudson has resigned councilmember Hawkins has nominated Jim Owen Cameron Cox has moved out of the city limits and has resigned and this is a nomination for councilmember Johnson and I had one and she filled out the application and then she emailed me this morning and said I'm moving second in a row so I'm gonna have to find somebody else not to replace her community events center at our committee I have council member Rodin and mayor for Tim Gregory yes so we need one more yes councilmember Rodin thank you mayor I just want to make a suggestion for this and maybe someone else want to want to volunteer but I'm wondering if councilmember Johnson is interested I know he's had several ideas as it relates to how to think about the economic development potential of that site as it relates to the community market and others and I think that would be a good asset to have at the table be happy to all right thank you councilmember Rodin okay all right so basically for that we've got then mayor pro-tem Gregory councilmember Rodin councilmember Johnson for that particular committee okay ad hoc committee okay any others all right chair would entertain a motion for those nominations as stated by city secretary councilmember Hawkins I move approval of the nominations by 5b there all right mayor pro-tem second we have a motion in a second let's vote on the board please councilmember Rodin is indicating a positive affirmative vote we have motion carries 7-0 thank you we now move on to the public hearing portion of our agenda agenda item 6a is hold a public hearing and consider a rezoning of approximately 15.02 acres from planned development district 12 PD 12 to a regional center commercial downtown RCC - D district mr. city manager and I will open the public hearing as soon as staff come I'd like to ask Amy Bissett our director of development services to come and present this case and open the public hearing all right we will we will now open the public hearing for agenda item 6a and hear staff presentation thank you mayor and council members the first public hearing that you're considering tonight is a rezoning case for Toyota of Denton this is a rezoning request from plan development 12 to a regional center commercial downtown district on approximately 15 acres it is located on I 35e between State School Road and post oak drive a little background on this site in 1980 a plan development PD 12 was created on 109 acres you can see the the site within that that original plan development in 1986 a concept plan was amended for 74 acres of that site in 1987 another concept plan was amended for 43.4 acres in 2001 a detailed plan was approved for Toyota of Denton on that site and in 2004 a detailed plan was approved for Honda of Denton to take a look at the zoning and the southeast corner of State School Road and I 35e was rezoned out of PD 12 in 1999 the property to the west was rezoned to our CCD in 2005 the future land use calls for regional mixed use in this area the site is currently developed today with in a way that's consistent with our CC D approval of this rezoning would remove the prior conditions of a detailed plan four of those conditions were related to the original construction and no longer applicable and the lighting condition is regulated by the D DC the noise is regulated by our code of ordinances and the detention pond and is heavily encumbered by easements and the essentially when Toyota of Denton came in to do their detailed plan amendment in 20 earlier this year and our recommendation at that point in time was that it be rezoned and moved out of the PD and into the those our CCD zoning district the reason for that is it would allow Toyota to further expand or renovate in the future without coming back again for another amendment and it is consistent with the use today and with the the future land use plan in order to approve a rez oning it must conform to the land use element of the Denton plan and facilitate adequate provision of transportation water sewer school parks and other public requirements a public notification was mailed on September 16th there were five notices mailed to property owners within 200 feet and 11 courtesy notices mailed and today we've received no responses the Planning and Z oning Commission recommends approval of this rezoning seven to zero and staff recommends approval I don't know whether the applicant here is here or not but they may wish to answer questions or speak if so okay all right this is a public hearing I see no cars but being a public hearing anyone wishing to speak on this item is welcome to come down states your name and address and your time will begin anyone wishing to speak on this item this is a public hearing one more time seeing none we will now close the public hearing councilmember Johnson thank you mayor like to move approval of item 6a council member Hawkins I'll second all right we have a motion and a second for agenda item 6a let's vote on the board please we have a 7-0 on agenda item 6a thank you agenda item 6b is hold a public hearing and consider adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton Texas regarding a change and the zoning classification from a neighborhood residential mixed use in our MU district and use classification to a neighborhood residential for in our for thank you mayor miss visit will also present this case and I will now open the public hearing this is a public hearing to consider a rezoning request from NRMU to neighborhood residential for on approximately 20 acres this is on the south side of East McKinney approximately 2,000 feet east of or road here's the subject site the zoning requesting companies encompasses 20 acres which is the top 20 acres on the aerial view above and of an approximately 80 acre tract which the applicant intends to develop as a single-family subdivision the current zoning shows the NRMU zoning on the left and on the right a rezoning to NR4 would make the entire property one district and it relates to the adjacent area to the west that's already zoned in our form the applicant has a concept plan which represents low to medium densities and has it depicts a conservation development which is a clustered housing product that protects natural resources and is responsive to the Denton plan 2030 goals for developing in a rural area the staff finds that in our for zoning is a more appropriate zoning district to encourage low to moderate density and to unify the entire property and the land use pattern in this area has remained rural and has not necessitated uses permitted by NRMU a conservation development design is a good response in transitioning single single-family units to a rural context notifications were mailed on September 20th and four public notices were sent by a certified mail and seven courtesy notices were sent and we've received one response in favor the planning and zoning Commission recommends approval and staff recommends approval and the applicant may be here and may wish to speak as well I see no questions this is a public hearing anybody wishing to speak on this item come down and state your name and address I don't see any what we do it we do have a card on this Justin Bono is applicant is that you Justin yes sir all right I'll state your name and address please Justin Bono 92 19 Arbor Trail Drive Dallas Texas mayor and council members I miss visit did a great job of laying out the situation here no nothing specific to address in addition to that but would be glad to stand for questions if you have sir any questions for the applicants representative seeing none this is a public hearing anyone wishing to speak please come down state your name and address and your time will begin this is a public hearing anyone wishing to speak seeing none we will now close the public hearing on agenda item 6b councilmember Hawkins yeah it doesn't happen a lot but it is nice when we get a public hearing where it goes from less intense to just neighborhood so anyway I'd move approval of item 6b councilmember Johnson second we have a motion the second for 6b let's vote on the board please motion carries 7-0 go on to agenda item 6c hold a public hearing considered option of an ordinance granting approval in accordance with chapter 26 of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Code of the non- park use of a part of Bowling Green Park for the purpose of installing and maintaining attention upon outfall for the fireside development project this is a we will now open the public hearing on this particular item thank you mayor and I asked mr. Jim Mays of my park and recreation department to present this case thank you Jim thank you mr. Campbell on today's chapter 26 public hearing for Bowling Green Park we're here to discuss the possibility of having a drainage easement outflow from a neighboring portion of a neighboring development you can see right here this is the upcoming fireside development it's a hundred and three single-family homes they're targeted for senior adults 55 and over and it's going to be a gated and well intense purposes a very fine addition to our community you can see it's here just south of North Lakes Park in Bowling Green Park Bowling Greens when we look at bowling or in we all think of bowling green we always think of this turfed area that's here adjacent to you know the outflow of the Windsor pond which is a NRCS detention pond and we often forget about this very treed area that's just to the east this also is a portion of Bowling Green Park it's got topography top ography that lends itself towards the creek and in working with fireside development Bill Haney in fact the president of Bill Haney of fireside development they were very instrumental and work with us their original intent was they needed two chapter 26 locations one of them would be would have been a 50 foot wide area for outflow of detention pond and I can show you more what what that detention pond looks like again here's fireside development and its planned state there's a detention pond all this water naturally flows you can see the drainage patterns it naturally flows to that pond and ultimately into the creek but in doing so and slowing their stormwater runoff our engineering DRC committees this you know it was the ultimate decision that they would need to slow that runoff into a fine metered outflow in doing so they would needed to have a a blow this up just a little bit you can see that this drainage easement which is more typically shown in this location they were the original call they originally called for a 50 foot wide drainage easement and that would have really denuded this entire area and deforested this entire area and made the vistas from these homes look unattractive and undesirable mr. Haney's group worked with us and ultimately settled on a 16 foot wide single detention easement outflow easement that is orient ated to the fact that word basically the best out of the outflow itself as it meets the adjacent Creek is right here at Vanderbilt Street so all the addition although neighboring houses they're this to looking on to the park is not going to be interrupted additionally the water outflow the water easement for this property they wanted an additional where the water line terminates just south of Windsor Park and we have Windsor Street as bowling green as it turns on the bowling green they wanted time to the water there and there would have been an additional 50 foot wide area that was been they that would have been de forested fireside development actually went back and went up to an existing nine foot wide easement that runs parallel to Windsor Street and so they made two significant augmentations in their design in order just to maintain a very attractive and maintain the integrity of the tree canopy there at Bowling Green Park and as we know we're having this this meeting here because Texas Parks and Wildlife law makes certain that in the event that any part property whether it be for an easement or to be taken out of service for any period of time requires that we have a public hearing to discuss this this item has been for staff and then before the park board it passed unanimously through the park board the applicant is here and they worked judiciously with the Parks and Recreation Department we have a question Councilmember Br iggs will this be concrete or will it be a natural creek well this is the creek itself all this is is this is list from this is going to be a a earthen channel okay yeah and so I wouldn't I would prefer the applicant to concur with that but and but what said there's very few they the tree inventory of the area very few trees were would have to be removed for this site again it's one of the most judicial and will find out easements that we've done and will they have to pay to the mitigation fund for taking those trees out in consideration for this easement they will pay the Parks and Recreation Department a sum of five thousand dollars for right at point zero eight acres of land that's just for the land and the run though the right to encumber that land as an easement as it was we would have had an easement that bisected the park for the water connection and would have deforested the trees and two 50-foot wide swaths we were impressed with you know their willingness to work with us okay now any other questions for staff oh I'm sorry go ahead I would just like to make sure that it's not concrete okay that'll be a question the applicant I think can also address as well okay yep thank you any other questions before we go to the speakers seeing none then this is a public hearing let's see we don't have any cars but if the applicant is here and would like to come down and speak or just answer the question however you'd like to use your time just state your name and address and your time will begin thank you I'm Bill Haney with Fireside Development 861 Will owgate Drive in Prosper, Texas and it's my understanding that that will not be concrete we wanted everything as natural as we possibly could that's why we worked to make the adjustments we we made so that it would be the least objectionable in terms of looking natural thank you any other questions for the speaker at this point yes go ahead you got you got some time if you just say yes it's just been a very good process working with staff all the staff and I just wanted to let y'all know that I mean they've been great they really have we work together and when there was an issue we've been able to work everything out I appreciate that fantastic thank you thank you for that feedback council member Briggs I just wanted to thank him for being concerned about the environment and keeping as many trees as possible that's nice thank you fantastic thank you any this is a public hearing anybody else wishing to speak on this agenda item anybody else wishing to speak seeing none we will close the public hearing on this agenda item councilmember Johnson move approval of item 6c council member Hawkins I'm gonna second we've got a motion and approval let's vote on the board please motion carries 7-0 just pull my council members you guys need a break or we good to move on everybody's good okay Jennifer you need one yeah okay all right we'll do one more and we'll see where we stand there okay we'll go to agenda item D which is hold a public hearing consider adoption of an ordinance regarding a rezoning of approximately 15.811 acres from a regional center commercial neighborhood to an employment center commercial and we will now open the public hearing thank you mr. mayor Amy Bissett our director of development services will present this public here thank you this is another rezoning request from an RCC in district to an ECC district on 15.8 acres this is located on the southwest corner of north I 35 and Bartold Road originally and this site was a truck stop a car wash a convenience store a warehouse and truck storage and the convenience store was destroyed in 2008 staff met with the applicant in 2013 to discuss complete redevelopment of the site into a truck stop including a convenience store gasoline sales restaurants and truck repair at the time we recommended RCC D as the as the proposed zoning as it was consistent with the 1999 Denton plan and it permitted vehicle repair however since then we've adopted the Denton plan 2030 which changed that area to business innovation and it was planned for regional center since 1988 a third regional center added at I 35 and John Payne in 1999 and then razor ranch was added as the fourth in 2007 and in consideration of all the regional centers identified in Denton and the the process of the Denton plan determined that this should change from regional center to business innovation regional mixed use which was the previous the the previous pattern called for in the 1999 plan is intended to promote a mix of high-density residential and commercial uses in a walkable walkable urban form business innovation which is now the designation based on Denton plan 2030 is intended to promote large-scale and employment parks with supporting commercial uses and at the time we we were considering an RCC designation and now looking at the Denton plan 2030 we recommending that ECC is more appropriate both permit most commercial uses and RCCN also permits high-density residential by contrast ECC permits light industrial the site has historically been used as a truck stop the area is ideal for this type of development due to the location at the northern gateway of Denton and until the GDC is updated in response to didn't plan 2030 the proposed ECC zoning district is most consistent zoning designation with business innovation and the surrounding uses today are primarily agricultural or commercial and no adjacent properties develop are developed with residential therefore there are no impacts to adjacent properties criteria to approve this rezoning request is that it needs to conform with the land use element of the Denton plan 2030 and that it should provide adequate provision of infrastructure and public utilities notifications were ma iled on September 16th seven required notifications were mailed and 10 courtesy notices were sent to date we've received no responses the Planning and Zoning Commission recommends approval as does staff I don't know if the applicant is here but they may wish to speak or or answer any questions as well any questions for staff before we hear public comments all right we do have a card for 6d which is Jeremy is it Reem Reese Reese okay I'm sorry if you could just state your name and address your time will begin good evening Jeremy Reese Chipotle engineering group 4420 Jackson Street Marianna Florida basically just the agent for the applicant also the site development engineer and just looking forward to answer any questions you might have any question for the applicants representative seeing none thank you all right thanks we will now this is a public hearing so anyone else wishing to speak on this agenda item please come down state your name address and your time will begin anyone else wishing to speak we will now close the public hearing councilmember Hawkins thank you mayor I move approval approval of item 6d council member Briggs all right we've got a motion and a second let's vote on the board please motion carries 7-0 let's go ahead and take a five minute break five to eight minute break it and we'll consider the last item on there we are now reconvening our November 17th 2015 meeting of the Denton City Council it is 819 we are now moving on to agenda item 6e under the public hearing portion of our agenda agenda item 6e is hold a public hearing and consider an ordinance revoking a specific use permit dated August 5th 2014 allowing a record service and impound lot on property located in an employment center industrial we will now open the public hearing and hear from staff thank you mr. mayor Amy Bissett our director of development services will open this discussion and present the works at the public hearing again and there were the the public hearing tonight is for you to consider revoking a specific use permit dated August 5th 2014 that allowed for a record service and impound lot this site is generally located south of Smith Street east of Dallas Drive and north of Teasley Lane 1.3 acres approximately the property is zoned employment center industrial the SUP was granted in August of 2014 with several conditions that I'll walk through now and the first condition was that the site plan as submitted and shown in exhibit B and C shall guide the operation of the use of the property for record services and impound lots that best management practices BMPs addressing stormwater quality quality shall not be required unless there is documented contamination city staff is directed to implement a monitoring program to determine whether any contamination is exiting the property and into the watershed if city staff documents such contamination the applicant shall either install BMPs designed to treat hydrocarbons and attain the pollutant removal capabilities recommended for parking areas and I swim or lose the SUP and cease doing business at the property the third condition is that the applicant shall install an 8-foot high screening fence and a type B buffer along the perimeter of the site and that the landscaping shall be planted along the outside of the fence shall be irrigated and kept alive at all times and that the material for the construction of the screening fence shall be made of wood or other opaque materials number four the applicant shall construct the screening fence and type B buffer within 60 days after approval of this SUP the screening and type B buffer shall be maintained at all times for continual use the fifth condition is that the SUP shall expire when the applicant acres towing company under ownership of the acres family ceases its business covered by this SUP give you a bit of timeline of what's occurred since this SU P was approved on August 5th on October 24th you received an informal staff report regarding an update to the SUP the applicant had asked for an amendment to the SUP to tend to not comply with some of the conditions on on November 14 th you received an additional informal staff report regarding site sampling on November 18th the property owner submitted an application to amend conditions and on December 2nd the City Council directed staff to enforce the original conditions imposed on the SUP as it was approved on December 17th staff met with the property owner to discuss the SUP conditions it was agreed at the meeting that the impound lot use was going to relocate within 90 days on March 31st staff contacted the property owner regarding the status of relocating the impound lot on August 24th staff sent a letter asking that the impound lot use be relocated or comply with all conditions on August 28th the property owner submitted an application for offense permit which is pending and we're my understanding is that we're waiting on them at this point in time on September 21st staff received a memorandum from their engineering firm requesting clarification of test results on October 9th staff met with the property owner to discuss the SUP conditions on November 6 th a notice regarding this public hearing to revoke the SUP was mailed to the property owner considerations in order for an SUP to be revoked it neither needs to be found by the City Council that it was obtained or extended by fraud or deception or that one or more of the conditions imposed by the permit has not been met or has been violated after the SUP was approved staff immediately implemented a monitor monitoring program which was one of the conditions and documented that contamination was exiting the property and as of today no B MPs have been installed and no screening fence or buffer has been constructed at this time staff recommends approval of the ordinance revoking the SUP I will share with you that the that representatives from acres towing are here to speak and I also have Ron Magida from planning and dr. Ken Banks with environmental services if you have specific questions about this okay do we have any questions for staff before public comment seeing that this is a public hearing I have a blue card I mean I'm sorry green card and it looks like that this is a green card to represent the green card is item Martinez on angel bend and it shows Gloria acres Joe acres and Melvin Melva Kunkel are represented here so that means the applicant gets I believe but the speaker gets ten minutes because of that so if yes okay okay well this is it's a public so if mr. acres wants to come down and speak we'll do the regular time for for the four minutes and then if anybody else wants to come in and speak they're certainly welcome or anyone I mean this is a public hearing so whoever wants to come down and start the process can certainly do so and just state your name and address and your time will begin my name is Greg Edwards I'm with Greg Edwards engineering services our offices are at 1621 Amanda court in Ponder Texas basically we started with the SEP there are several things that occurred well we were not involved the acres gave me a call we had a meeting with the city attorney and and some of the city staff and we've been working with the wire administration folks to try to come up with a BMP plan for this strict ice whim requirements in following the options that they give basically require us to do massive construction at the meeting with the attorneys the the city said use of compost berms at the perimeter of the sites and then issues things that they have implemented on on gas well sites in the city of Denton been back and forth with dr. Banks and primarily dr. Hunter trying to come up with you know design calculations and criteria's and basically we had a meeting with dr. Hunter Deborah Vieira and Chad Allen a civil engineer with the with the city of Denton and one of the initial problems that we had and then I discussed with with dr. Hunter was basically these filter berms are so porous that we you know you can't get water quality storage behind the filter berms and yes so we've gone back and forth and and and got fine-tuned some of them the criteria and basically these filter berms will filter up to about 450 gallons per minute per foot at the initial part of a rainstorm and as sediment goes up it it goes down to five gallons per minute so how we you know what kind of factors do we use and those kind of things so we've been back and forth and they've been very helpful you know to me finding references on those kind of things to do that the the big thing was ice whim talks about a water quality volume and generally for detention ponds and those kind of things you've got to store the water quality volume we're not storing the water quality volume we're proposing to treat the water quality volume through the filter berms are the the compost socks and I think I got agreement with them that you know basically we have done calculations that we 've showed to them that we we show on the approved the plans that basically they indicated were acceptable to them that passed a two-year storm through the filter bar berms 100% of that would be filtered a two-year storm is basically three times the water quality volume in a 24 year hour period the trouble is these things are on you know a 20 minute duration storm and the two-year storm in that time period doesn't generate the water quality volume I have done some calculations and basically with larger storms we virtually passed that and we do store the water quality volume so we do have a couple questions we do have a couple questions at the end of your time mayor pro tem thank you so it was on August 5th 2014 that the council put the conditions on the SUP it's about 14 months ago and then back on December 2nd 2014 11 months ago the council said we really want to keep those conditions that were requested so my question for you is how long does it take to come up with the plan how many how many months does it take to really come up with a plan to handle runoff for and clean the runoff for less than two acres how long does it take to come up with that plan well we we got involved about the back involved about the the about the first of well let's see when was that about the middle middle of October of this year of this year and so we've been working back and forth with them for what about three weeks so in December we said no the conditions stand mm-hmm so there was January February March April May June July August September and you weren't working on any plan and you've just started working on a plan in October yes sir Wow okay thank you councilmember Hawkins yeah thank you mayor I was gonna ask about SUP condition number three that we had discussed last year in August and just kind of why hasn't a fence been built or what's going on with the fence you know I'm not sure not real sure I have assisted Ida with recently with the the type B buffer okay nation if anybody out there does want to answer and the last I heard they had submitted for the plan the plan for the fence and sure it had you know the it hadn't been reviewed because they were waiting on the BMP stuff I think what's difficult about this when I remember that night there were a lot of I think staff was wanting us to consider doing a lot more conditions and we had even me personally I'd really gone to bat just even get it to these two because oh I'm a small business owner and I'll fight for a small business owner and I think that's what the struggle is even just the basic fence part of it just still isn't up so anyway thank you see no more questions thank you thank you for that this is a public hearing anybody else wishing to speak please come down and state your name and address and your time will begin good evening my name is Gloria acres and I my husband and I have acres towing all of this did happen we did agree that we would relocate the storage facility they said that we could keep on operating at the address we could have a body shop we could have an automotive shop we could have storage out in the yard but no storage for the storage facility as far as for the vehicles that came in from impounding okay they claimed that we had when I told her that if that was the case then I would go ahead and move the storage facility all right because we could operate everything else out of there we could operate the records out of there the only thing we couldn't use was that little bitty spot over there in the corner that holds 25 cars okay then when we came back this was right before Christmas when we came back everybody had quit okay we did not have Brian Lockley we did not have Naina Naina was gone Brian was gone we came back from the holidays and everybody was gone okay so I called the city I called code enforcement they said well I told him I said I need a permit for a fence you know I can't get a permit for a fence I don't know who to talk to and they said well you will have to apply for the permit of the fence I said all right I said well let me talk to Naina well he's no longer with the city well let me talk to Brian well we 'll leave him a message they didn't tell me that he was no longer with the city then later on we read it in the paper that he had taken a leave of absence or something but everybody was gone that we were working with so then we just kept on operating when we had applied for the permit for the city for the fence we found out that it had been issued but we never got notified that we had a permit for the city they had told us that we needed to wait that we needed to see to talk to somebody about what was going on finally about three months later Ron Mangida calls me okay I already contacted the city I already talked to looking for Naina I already gone looking for Brian I couldn 't find nobody so finally Ron Mangida called me and he wanted to know what was going on what had happened did have we moved or what are we were ready to move he didn't know either so the reason that we had decided that we would go ahead in the first place and move the storage facility was because the era miss Vera was talking about a drain problem that we had that was going to cost us somewhere like 42 or 48 thousand dollars that's what she was talking about when there's no way that we could afford something for 42 or 48 thousand dollars so that's when we decided all right we'll just move the storage facility then came all of this so where are the city employees there are no where to be found then finally Ron gets a hold of me then we apply reapply for the fence permit okay by that time I had contacted Greg that's come he said that nothing had been done this whole time that was the reason I contacted Greg and Greg said that he would go ahead and start and we'd start talking to everybody you know seeing what we could do we applied for the permit for the fence there's another permit applied applied for in there then they told us that we would have to Ron told us that we would have to see about everything else you know that we would have to go and and find out where we stood with our permit you know where we stood with our part with our SUP so we have been trying we have cleaned the place up from one end of the other we have got shrubbery's everywhere for the landscaping we've already got all the material for the fence but we don't have no permits so finally Greg went and talked to Mr. Banks and we finally had a meeting where we could see some progress we could finally see some progress they had approved us for some kind of drain that was reasonable okay that was your time if you could just wrap up your comments because we do have a couple questions okay yes thank you oh okay well I mean I wanted to finish your thought that'd be fine Councilmember Johnson thank you mayor so my question is when I recall I was sitting here the night that we spent a lot of time on this and there was a lot there was a lot of debate back and forth about whether we should even grant some time and give you guys time to do these things and that's true and I think you tugged at a lot of people's heartstrings and you know I for one struggled being a small business guy too but you know when we left when you left here that night what I recall was you were asked pretty specifically are you willing to do these things yes yes I'm gonna do so I guess my little it's giving me a little heartburn a little trouble right now is here we sit over a year later and you haven't done the things you said you were gonna do it I know hold a second I know a whole second now so I've had to build fences too and I do understand it can be frustrating if you're on the computer or whatever but I find it hard to believe that if you went to City Hall West there was nobody there so all I'm saying is I'm I'm having trouble with I think we worked really hard to say we're gonna give you time to go understand that there's a lot to be done here but at the end of the day yes there is a creek back there and there are cars there that leak things and so we we have to as we have a responsibility that's true okay so I can understand so do you understand I mean so my question is why didn't you take action right away because these things when we were going to move and we came back after the Christmas holidays that's when I was gonna talk to Ron I mean to Ryan and to Nana and that's when I couldn't find anybody okay I asked for somebody so we will have someone call you okay so you then I applied for the permit but meanwhile the reason that we had agreed to move the storage facility was because I'm not talking about the storage facility here's my very direct question you agreed to build a fence yes you agreed to the filtration yes well the filtration system was the problem hold on you agreed to do those things and so whether some months later certain city employees left I can't buy I mean I guess my question is can you take responsibility for the fact that you didn't do what you said you were gonna do I tried I don't think it's fair to blame it right away it's on record that we applied for the fence permit right away that would have to be the first thing they wanted done but the system that they wanted installed by Miss Vieira was just way too expensive that's the come we needed to talk to somebody okay we had decided that if we could get something done that was reasonable then we could afford it but not at what they were talking to about 42 or 48 thousand dollars that was the reason why we needed to talk to somebody okay I thank you to answer my questions thanks thank you mayor pro Tim Gregory one more question ma'am yeah so you spent most of the time talking about the problems that you had with getting the permit for the fence though I've gotten a permit for offense and I didn't use mr. either of those folks you just I just went into the office and I did too and you know what they told me that somebody else the permit was on hold that they would have to put the permit on hold that there was somebody else that I needed to talk to before they would issue me the permit and who were you supposed to talk to I'll talk to Ron Mangida so did you talk to him yes and then did you get the permit well that's when he called me and we started talking about everything and what we could do and that was how long ago that's when I call Greg that was in October in October and I'm talking you know for me personally the fence is a secondary issue the primary issue is the fact that there's that there 's pollutants on the property that are going into the stream and those streams go into the lake and that's where we get our water and in April and May we had some of the most rain that we've had in years yes we did and that means a lot of pollutants went off of y'all's property into the lake I mean this month alone we've already had three inches of rain in my backyard and and and when I hear that you've just begun this past month to work on the plan to mitigate the pollut ants running off of your property into the stream when we gave you those conditions in December well we we reiterated them in December and we give them originally in August 5th of 2014 that seems like a long time I know it is a long time but it takes time to communicate with people at the city okay and as far as the pollutants I do have someone that has done the research and can talk to you about that but the main concern my main concern was that now they have come up with some solutions that we can afford that is the main thing and I actually remember ma'am when we were talking the last time there was discussion about the the $40,000 solution and in here in the meeting we talked about no there are solutions that are much less expensive the city is not requiring a $40,000 solution there are there are several different alternatives that are less expensive than now we're talking with that now we'll finally come to that point I fear it may be too late but but thank you for your information you're quite welcome okay thank you see no more questions this is a public hearing anybody wishing to speak please come down states your name and that okay Kevin's got a question I'm sorry thank you councilmember Rodin did you have a question for the last speaker I did yeah yes thank you mr. Tansy good acres if you could come back up and he's got a question actually he's right here on this okay thank you thank you mayor I did have a quick question and that was relating to this fence permit and you are telling us that there was a delay in that permit didn't you disagree with what the SGP was requiring as far as a fence permit and is that the reason why this was delayed because you were seeking something else yes there was a disagreement on the size of the fence okay had nothing to do with the price of the money of the drain also they the disagreement was on the fence and my husband said that there's it was just putting up an eight-foot fence would cover us totally we wouldn't be able to to we'd be totally sucking there with that eight-foot fits yeah but that's what the SGP required right and eight foot fits everybody else has a six-foot fence but they wanted us to have an eight foot okay thanks so I just to clarify when you went in for a permit I think you're it sounds like you're trying to say you went in for a simple permit to do upset when we apply for the permit for the fence we put down that we would put down an eight-foot fence and that it would be worked but we never have seen a permit yet we've applied for two permits and one has been approved but we never knew it was there and this was from the very beginning okay thank you thank you thank you okay again this is a public hearing anybody wishing to speak please come state your name and address and your time will begin hi my name is Ida Martinez and I live at 9830 Angel Bend I am the daughter of Joan Gloria and since all this has started they have put me in charge of this SUP and complying with the conditions of the SUP to back things up in the beginning with the fencing permit we didn't disapprove didn't we weren't trying to get out of paying defense we were willing to put the fence up any size that it was the eight-foot would whatever they wanted and they did apply for a fence permit it was put on hold when Brian and I know left the city it was then passed to I believe mr. Mangida and at that point there was a major time lapse in between so it was really difficult to try to get this permit we were never granted the permit we applied for two and we didn't get it well when we got to mr. Mangida he said well there's a problem because y'all are not comp lying with the the they said that they did you guys wanted us a test done on the water and the limits and the levels of the pollutions that could have possibly been coming from our property and in the course of that testing and they said that there there was pollutants well we had a discussion we had a meeting with the city and to discuss these pollutants because the charts that we got and reports that we got and there were some serious discrep ancies okay and we understand that there's there probably are pollutants I mean it's a towing facility there are cars there it's been there for a long time we don't disagree with that we were we're willing to do whatever it takes in the original SUP that you guys granted and we weren't supposed to put in a filter we don't guys said that we didn't need to put in the underground filter and so when the fence permit came up and they did the study and they said that them talks and was it poison or what color pollutants were coming from the property is it was likely coming Greg and I were able to show that it that according to the test that they did and the location of it it could have been coming from our property or the property that was adjacent to us the levels were were equally of on both sides now at that point we were able to speak to David Hunter yes David Hunter and mr. banks and dr. banks and in our meeting in discussing this the outcome of this this testing that they did we all were able to come to in terms on some type of filtration system to help you know make sure that no pollutants were leaving our property because that is that is a big concern of ours we drink that water too so you know we don't want to poison our own water much as anybody else's so we come up to a first solution we all work together which before we hadn't which was sexually nice and we came up with a solution to the problem the fence I don't know why the fence was ever put on hold in the beginning but it's actually a good thing because now we're able to to fix the real issue here and that is you know making sure that nothing leaves the property no toxins since then I know y'all saw the pictures of the property from before if y'all can recall it was pretty bad acres has come a long way any of you guys are more than welcome to come to the facility it's been totally cleaned up everything all the all the metals all the food everything everything it's covered if anything's on the ground there's nothing on the ground anymore it's all off the ground either in pants or pallets and they have done a tremendous job in such a short period of time and just renovating the whole place it looks great it really does I get emotional about this because my parents have been there for 40 years and they love it there they loved it and they would never do anything to harm didn't or the people and they want to do their part and the thing is is this fence permit I don't know why they still won't give it to us but hopefully after we get this result we'll be able to get that pin so we do have a question councilmember Briggs I was just curious if you had a copy of the tests that you and Greg did do you have those on okay I thought that you said you also did some and it was there were discrepancies Oh in their own testing their own testing yes because the numbers would you like to see a copy of it I can get one that's okay I'm good you come out city I can get that yeah so my other question is when is this filter plan to be done that you're we want to do it as soon as possible I mean if we can you know getting okay from you guys we're wanting to do started immediately I mean we're just waiting for the okay the buffer we already have all the landscaping we have everything we have everything in place everything ready the materials are on hold we're just we just waiting for somebody to say okay didn't do it we have even this berm that we're going to put in that we all discussed dr. Banks and and mr. Hunter and Greg and I we've sent down and we've you know figured out a solution to the problem maybe it's not a complete solution but it's you know it's a start and I mean I'm I will be there to monitor and take care of the system make sure it's running we're 24 hour towing company so there's no reason why nobody can lose somebody can't look after it you know I think it's an excellent idea thank you so okay thank you I see no more questions we yeah well I know but I don't have any more questions do you have any clarification I think I've gotten on my council member Hawkins sure I'd like to hear that I think I think one of the problems that we've had through this process is that you know some of the individuals involved on the staff are not the most knowledgeable folks in the city when dr. Hunter and dr. Banks got involved basically there were some options that were available to us that that we had no idea when we were talking you know the city gave us Deborah Vieira as our point person we suggested several housekeeping things which she did not consider BMPs when dr. Banks got involved at our meeting with the city attorney he had no idea that we had offered those BMPs in the first place and so there there is a communication problem you we had Nana Paya who bless his heart wonderful young man didn't know the difference between a tow truck and a a wrecking yard and that added a lot of confusion to everything but that that's why it was very hard to come up with the much more reasonable solution that we have here to the BMP councilmember Johnson has a question well I thought he was going to address timeline concerns and it sounds like what we're doing is talking about how staff doesn't know what they're doing so with all due respect sir I would I would just know if it's time to make a motion so okay I'll make comments when I second that motion sorry all right we see this is a public hearing anybody else wishing to speak please come down state your name and address and your time will begin my name is Joe acres I live at 9830 Angel Bend Denton Texas I've been in business at this location since 1978 they changed the zoning on me sometime along after I moved in there there was nobody out there except me I built this place on the swamp and I've tried to keep it clean yes I had some trouble with the code enforcement I had it rented to a guy and he was running a garage next door and he wouldn't clean up so I ran him off because he was making a mess now then we have used every method that I know to keep the oil out of that creek I even I use drives it in my shop I've got even got some pads like people be used when they cleaned up the guff that I used to absorb all they don't solve water they just to serve all and when we bring cars in if they're leaking all we will put pans under them or we will set them up on blocks to where they don't leak all but most of the vehicles we bring in we bring in on flatbeds and if they leak in all they leak it onto the flat beds and then we clean the flat beds as far as they have been into the deal with the getting the permits and everything but we were ready to build a fence and they told me if I put one pole in the ground without a permit they would find me and I kept I talked I went to several meetings Brian Lockley the last time I met with him we sit down and had a meeting and he told me that I could continue to run a record service there with certain conditions and he got up slammed his hands down and walked out and that's the last time I ever saw him and then shortly after that what was his name Nana he was gone and then my wife was kept trying to get a permit for a fence nobody would ever give us a permit and we just we were it lost to what to do and they worked on a plan and they've got a plan for planting the shrubberies and putting up the fence but I didn't go to the meeting this afternoon because I was busy and I don't know what they finalized because after I went home I took a shower and came down here and I had a chance to talk to him about it now then I really don't understand why you're they 're picking on me there's other services in town and I know a one that doesn't even have a occupancy permit to be in town and y'all are letting him operate and then you've got the storage lot on McKinney Street or on on May Hill rather they claim that they stored like 1600 cars last year and they're right on the creek and nobody's bothering them and that's all I know we do have a couple questions for you Councilmember Johnson thank you mayor so mr. acres were you aware when you left here last year after the the meeting that we had we spent a lot of time on it there was very specific things mine my recollection was very specific things that you guys agreed to do as a part of receiving being able to continue to operate and there was specific timelines on some of that were you aware of those things how can I put up a fence and do these things if they won't give me a permit they tell me they're gonna find me if I put put up a fence yeah I'm not so sure about the timelines involved now just basically the question is were you aware that you had to do those things when you left here a year and however many months ago that was well I never did really finalize it they we were supposed to do these things but then they started changing they changed what they wanted to do so I knew I didn't know what to do and then they wouldn't give me a permit to build a fence I I've got the whole drill in the ground to put the posts in the ground but I haven't got a permit thank you mayor pro tem Gregory thanks the whether staff members change or not the conditions were approved and determined on August the 5th 2014 and then apparently you talked to staff and said could we have some changes and that came back to council on December 2nd 2014 and and council said no the conditions that we put in are those conditions so whichever staff member was there really it seems to me not the main thing I heard your wife say we asked for a permit we didn't get it we didn't get it and then we got it we didn't know we had it we have they send it on email we don't we don't operate off email but the fact is is then you found that's you had a permit right so so it went on email okay well ma'am miss Martinez please thank you very much I appreciate so thank you do you I'm sure that you operate off email I don't the u.s. postal system is the way I get my mail gotcha I can't even turn I can turn a computer on maybe okay thank you councilmember breaks I'm good thank you Oh councilmember was knee did you have a question yes yes mr. Akshi we have a question for you if you could just come on back up yes sir thank you yes sir yes so it's my understanding that there's a creek that runs along your property is that correct yes ma'am I built the creek it was a swamp when I came in and it's my and it's my understanding that the city has done testing and determined that some very serious pollut ants are going into that creek yes they've tested the creek they tested it on my side they tested it on Goukish side so I'm late to the conversation because that was not on council when you talked here first but my issue is that we were talking about Christmas last year it's almost Christmas again one of the primary responsibilities for government whether it's federal state or local is to protect one of our most precious resources and that's water our streams our lakes our creeks they are tightly regulated so if it's been over a year it means we have had a year of pollutants going into the creek and that's my concern tonight that's my number one concern okay I don't think there's any one of y'all have ever been on my property and seen the gravel is clean there they tested the creek yes but they tested the other side too and it was just as polluted as my side most of the pollution they found is up by the street where there's a sewer pipe blocks the flow of the creek and there's a drain that comes out of the paint store that drains out right there in the creek we were walking the creek one day and over where the apartments are there was some guy dumping oil and he had changed out of his car now I can 't take care of what's going on up the creek the water runs downhill where they found the most of the pollution is upheld from me I understand they tested the perimeter of your property all the way around and found pollutants all the way around so again that's my issue is that my job as an elected official to is to enforce the law and ordinances are laws and I believe listening tonight the city has really given you a lot of time to solve the problem my problem is that I'm fearful that our Creek has been has been polluted and we have to we have to fix that did they test on the north side of me they had a garage over there and they store cars over there right now I'm confident in the testing that our staff performed and they can we know Councilman was new are you through to your questioning okay thank you we have a couple more questions or comments councilmember I mean I'm sorry mayor pro tem Gregory my questions not for mr. acres you can go ahead and sit down for a moment because I would like to ask dr. banks question I I almost came out of my seat a minute ago when the gentleman said that we didn't have anybody on staff that knew much about this stuff because apparently he had not met dr. banks and and I recall dr. banks when we discussed this back in August did you appear before the council at that time I did and when we discussed this again in December did you appear before the council I did okay so you've been available the whole time if if there was assistance needed is that correct yes okay and could you talk a little bit about the testing and what you discovered yes I can it perhaps would be a little bit easier to see with the map and so I'd be happy if you can bear with me just a moment just to remind everybody we're still in a public hearing as well yes okay want to redo reset on that so as Amy had stated earlier we were required by the ordinance to go on the site and perform the sampling we established 12 sampling locations we used a Department of Energy visual sampling plan software that randomizes the sampling locations around the property used EPA methodology regarding standard operating procedures for soil sampling collected in containers and preservatives as specified by those lab methods used appropriate EPA methods for the testing of metals BTex which is benzene toluene ethyl benzene and x ylene and total petroleum hydrocarbons and then analyze those samples either at the municipal laboratory or for those analyze that we could not analyze at our laboratory we sent them off to a certified lab the sampling that was done on the property surrounded the property on the eastern side and southern side you can see the sample labels here there were two samples that have been referred to this evening samples five and eight which were on the other side of the creek the remainder of the samples were around the perimeter of the property the results are listed here in the table those that are those contamin ants that were found in exceedance of Texas risk reduction standards are listed the highest concentration was at sample site 2 which mr. acres had indicated earlier which is this the sample site there at the entrance of their property there has been some discussion about the result from sites 5 and 8 site 5 was actually below the Texas risk reduction standard for lead as indicated in the right column it's one of the two unhighlighted there on the other side which was 8 it was slightly above the standard but generally below what was seen at the other areas of the site for metals in particular they have a tendency to accumulated areas where they're deposited and not moved much in soils so you do have a tendency to see pockets of higher concentrations interspersed with pockets of lower concentrations site 6 in particular was on the southern side of the property near where some of the equipment was being stored and it was quite high at 163.4 milligram per kilogram the highest site was at site 2 as indicated the total petroleum hydrocarbons for the most part were below detection limits around the site but site 2 did have a fairly significant amount of total petroleum hydrocarbons I think it's important to point out that we asked the laboratory to break those hydrocarbons down in terms of their molecular size so when you see up at the top c6 to c12 tph c12 to 28 tph and c28 to 36 that's the number of carbon atoms that exist in the molecules that were analyzed so in this particular instance at site 2 there were 162 milligram per kilogram of carbon molecules in the c28 to c36 range so for an English major is that a lot it is and I think it's important to point out as I've got in this depicted in this graphic the the size of are the number of the carbon molecules will tell you the source of the materials and basically the c12 to about c24 is going to be in the diesel fuel range the c20 to to c30 plus is going to be in the lubricants motor oils transmission fluids and grease range so the so the the things that you found that the lab tested for are consistent with the types of of liquids that you would see being emitted from automobiles and trucks that's that's correct thank you then then did you have anything else you wanted to add because I wanted to follow up with one question back for the app for the for the for the folks with regards to the sampling results now okay okay there I think there might be a couple follow-up questions for his presentation is that okay councilmember Briggs so can you tell me again when the last test was done when the test was done we did a single testing event and it was done on I thought I had the date in there but I I don't guess I do I would have to I would have to look that up to be able to give you an accurate date on it it was it was done in October time frame if I remember correctly but last month or this month no this was done last year okay because I'm wondering if a test has been done since they've cleaned up their property as they've said there has been no test except for this one that's been done to my by my staff okay okay and my next question is gee does anyone remember when Brian and who I'm sorry I forget left like at what point in the process they left was that early or late or Brian left in March of this year and Nana left probably within two to three months before that I believe it was fairly shortly before that and I believe that what he was saying were they knowledgeable in in like pollutants and water and things like that is that Nana was the planner on the case okay and Brian was my predecessor as director okay thank you I just have one question for dr. banks as well Kevin got a question oh you're on mute you're good go ahead go for it okay I don't know what you like to speak to is this dr. banks dr. bank yes there's there's questions about other potential polluting type companies in the city can you just briefly talk about how you guys end up finding pollutants in our stream systems and how you go about investigating it in other words are we are we actually paying attention to other possible problems around the city or are we targeting a particular business well this this particular sampling effort was done directly in response to the conditions of the ordinance however we do have a monitoring program that we run around the city we've actually done this since January of 2001 monthly sampling we're up to about 90 stations and we sample those stations during periods of normal flow once a month at least during times in which we find any evidence of contamination we will we will further the investigation this is actually part of our stormwater requirements with the state and effectively what we'll do is if we see something that falls outside of the norm which we're able to describe because of the number of samples that we've collected through the years we'll actually look at the drainage network and essentially chase that contamination to its its source we've done that on many many occasions for a wide variety of different industries through the years thank you sure Dr. Banks another question for you how much did that testing cost for the acres facility around $6,000 six thousand dollars and we did that because I believe at the time they were when we had this discussion before they said well we don't think that there's really any pollution coming off because we've cleaned our place up and so part of our condition was we wanted to make sure that we knew that there indeed was that it wasn't just an assumption because of the operation that there indeed was that that's correct thank you councilmember breaks so if if they were to do if they did like this week all of the things listed the conditions with that would that get rid of the pollutants is that at this point do you think would be enough the the proposal initially was for a sand filter which was essentially a large pit designed to retain water and slowly filter it and release it over time because of the size of the site and the expense of the of the filter that was not a viable option for for the acres that was as indicated earlier by council man Gregory only one of many possible management practices that could have been implemented on the site what we did when we met with the with mr. Edwards and the acre acres about a month and half ago was to suggest some other management practices that would be able to treat the runoff from the site and still deal with the issue of the amount of physical space that would be occupied by the management practice as well as being able to treat the contaminants coming off at the site we've done quite a bit of work with them over the course of the last four to six weeks there are still some loose ends to tie up on the analysis but we've hit on the idea of the use of this compost sock compost socks are known to be able to deal with total petroleum hydrocarbons and metals if they 're designed properly and they're sized appropriately and they're installed and they are maintained then they will greatly minimize the amount of pollution coming off at these sites the same could be said about the good housekeeping management practices that were mentioned earlier those practices are need to be not only identified but they need to be documented they need to be tracked over time they need to be available for inspection we've worked to put together a plan to address that that tracking and basically looking at those contaminants are I'm sorry looking at those management practices so that we can ensure that they're being done those are the types of management practices that one of the many times that were envisioned for a property like this so will they absolutely eliminate all contamination the answer to that is no and they weren't designed to they're designed to greatly reduce the amount of contaminants coming off of the site if they're installed and designed properly and maintained they will do that and how long does that installation process take for something like that if if they get a knowledgeable company and they are able to to have that company come on site and install these compost socks essentially the way those are designed is once they're sized appropriately they are they are basically a large mesh bag that is filled with a mixture of compost material that acts as a filter for stormwater leaving the site the I've seen different types of installations some come with the material already installed a lot of them because of the weight of the of the sock especially if they have to be a large size are actually put in in place as an empty sock and they actually have a device that will blow the compost into that sock and they just extend it all the way around the property a knowledgeable operator can install one of those in a short period of time they do not take a long time to install and is this the type of filter that they've agreed to do there has not been a formal submission of that of that to planning but they have been working with us and have done calculations and presented preliminary information showing how the installation would go this is the more affordable plan that's correct compared to the initial information that was submitted to staff which dealt with a a sand filter this would be a much more cost effective solution and would not take the physical space that a sand filter would take okay so I also just want to say I don't I don't think he was trying to criticize you and I think that he was saying that you guys were very smart and that that they were probably really happy to start working with you I think that's what they were trying to say instead of criticizing the other they were saying that it that you're very knowledgeable and I didn't want you to take offense to that because I think that that's what they were trying to tell you right correct that this guy's he's very yeah very thankful for you okay that's it thank you all right there protein and as I recall we've had these previous discussions on these previous dates have you mentioned these less expensive options we have talked about I don't I don't think it's fair to characterize staff's responses saying that the sand filter was only option available for management practices on the side anytime that we have approached a water quality design we've directed people to the North Central Texas Council of Governments I swim manual the ice when manual has a whole listing of management practices that are specific to various types of applications and so it's really up to the applicant as to what type of management practice makes the most sense for their site there are calculations that have to be done and those management practices have to be sized accordingly but the applicant is afforded the flexibility to do whatever type of management practice they would like as long as that management practice can be shown through those calculations to meet the requirements of the ice one manual the compost socks are a little different they are we've had to go to literature values outside of I swim for the purposes of installing the compost socks simply because they're a little bit outside of the norm of a of a traditional stormwater management approach however there's a lot of research that supports their use and and a lot of research looking at their ability to remove contaminants we've worked with some of those researchers in the past and I feel very confident and if properly installed and properly maintained that they can achieve the reductions that we're after just one follow-up question for mr. Edwards before we close the public yes mr. Edwards you're a you're an engineer yes you're licensed engineer yes as you've heard mr. dr. banks talk about his discoveries do you have any reason do you have any evidence to suggest that the information that he's presented is inaccurate as far as the soil sampling yes sir I have I have I have problems with his conclusions well have you taken any samples of soil on the property on the acres property that could present some different conclusions no sir but just looking at the samples that he has the the drainage from the the storage facility basically drains through sample number nine sample number nine I think is the the fourth fourth smallest lead contaminant shown there do you think that we 're just concerned with the storage facility when we're talking about the the the well they could be a pollutant the the the ordinance that requires the SUP is for the storage facility okay I hear you okay okay now you know in between number nine and number six you know there's a there's a sample that's what ten times as much at the entrance where there's there's no runoff from the storage facility where there's where there's runoff from the the street the adjacent parking lot and the pay part that's about you know number two that's about 30 times now dr. banks can't explain I can't explain and dr. banks can't explain why we had the outlier on you know sample number four why we have the outlier on number two yet his conclusion is that the that the contamination is coming from the acre site you know you know it would be easier for us if you were to claim that it's not coming from the acre site had you had invited dr. banks to do similar samples inside the acre site I I I didn't prohibit it man I don't know that the acres have prohibited from taking samples right and on the interior well I don't have any more questions councilmember breaks go ahead I'm sorry no I'm good I just I kind of wanted to talk to to one of the acres yeah do you have a specific question for which one yeah okay I'm good I'm good okay yeah you sure yeah okay this is a public hearing and anybody else wishing to speak and come down and state your name and address anybody else wishing to speak at this public hearing do I do last call for council members for any questions for staff or speakers council member Briggs so I I just kind of wanted to say right now that this is the first time I know that you guys went through this once before and my my issue is that if we vote to do this I fear that I'm going to take away a family business and it's their livelihood and that kind of hits me but I'm also very angry at polluters and intentional polluters that but there for me there's a there's the the planning department issues and that's all that I've heard since I've been on was that the issues that they did have a long time ago and I'm wondering if maybe they were kind of part of that and they didn't they're not they're getting a lot better now for sure but so I'm just curious if we if we put like a time on on a few of these things not a year by any means if and then they did everything and the water was retested and there there was still pollutants at what point what what would be the course of action then like well ma'am I'm sorry yeah I'm sorry okay is that a question yeah right right I'm just kind of hypothetically like if there was still pollut ants they did everything they were supposed to do but the water still I mean would the other would with other investigations go on for other properties or what would happen and I guess for me we're still in the public hearing do we have any no that's okay I just want to I just want to why we have them here if there's any other questions for the applicants in the public hearing if not then I'll go ahead and close it and then we're going to address your your question any other anybody else wishing to speak well well we had a we had a card filled out for representation but then when we called it not everybody was here and then people started coming down and speaking who were on that card so if you haven't spoken and you would like to speak you're certainly welcome to come down here and speak I'm gonna ask the council what their thoughts are on that you all just want her if you if you're willing to speak and come down and speak then this is a public hearing so you're certainly allowed to do so absolutely you sure okay all right anybody else wishing to speak at the public hearing anybody else wishing to speak I'm gonna give it one more time just to make sure anybody else wishing to speak who has not spoken okay we will now close the public hearing so let's address councilmember Briggs question that if there was if I don't paraphrase this correctly just correct me that if there was some time given to remedy some of these what happens after that or go ahead and restate your question well a very short period of time to remedy these and everything is done and the water is retested and there's still pollutants what what is the next product like what happens after that point I am city city attorney if it sounds like we'd be right back where we are it might be a different it could possibly be a different business or somebody else illegally dumping into the creek oh oh you're talking about if the result I thought you said if the results were the same in other words the determination was it was coming from that property then we 'd be back at this type of hearing to revoke an SEP but you're saying how do you determine where the the contaminants are coming from or something to that effect if they if they did everything they were supposed to do and it was still that way okay that was my question got a brief answer for that dr. Banks I think that that's at least partially a legal question but one of the things that I think is very important to point out on this particular situation is that we specifically tried as best we could to target contamination coming off of this property in this property only I think it's really important to understand that the Texas risk reduction and pollution liability at the state level is going to say if you own a piece of property that has contamination on it regardless of the source of that contamination you own that contamination and that's that's the way the liability structure is set up in the in the state with regards to the management practices themselves the management practices have been subject to testing and and are certified to operate as they have been portrayed to operate so the way that's management practices that are structural in nature like the ones that we're talking about operate is that they are presumed to achieve the pollution level reductions that they have been designed to achieve as long as they are installed as sized appropriately and as long as they are maintained that's why it's so important to have a management plan for a facility where that maintenance is documented and so where someone can go on to that site and request records to indicate that that maintenance has occurred and is occurring as according to the set schedule and if damage has occurred or repair is needed that that has been noted and that has been fixed so these management practices are by far a better solution than nothing and and certainly if maintained properly will will achieve the load reductions they're designed to do but we're never going to get a hundred percent of the pollution off of any piece of property the best we can do is to achieve the load reductions of management practices like these which are typically in the 80 to 95 percent reduction of contamin ants one side of the management practice to the other okay so does I'm not sure I'm not sure I addressed your question. I just wish we were working with a test that was done more recently than a year ago after they've done some cleaning up right right that that particular test was presented to council these results were presented to council in that November time frame so as soon as we had the results back the information was conveyed to council and then it was also provided as an informal staff report in December of 2014 so the information was provided as quickly as it could considering the time that the lab results took to get in after these samples had been collected. Thank you. Yes you had something Madam City Chair. Thank you Mr. Mayor I did have a comment with regard to the action by the council in August of 2014 one of the conditions there that the council imposed on this property was that they the owner would not be required to implement the best management practices but they fur the council further directed staff to implement a monitoring program and the staff then followed the direction of the council implemented the monitoring program bought the results back the positive results from the staff's testing then triggered the requirement for this BMP to be installed at that point in time which as we know today was not done and has not been done today. Councilmember Johnson . Clarification doc you have an amazing talent for making me feel like the stupidest man on earth clarification those are soil samples that's correct those are not water samples that's correct soil doesn't clean itself that that 's correct one of the reasons that we chose soil is because it's very difficult to to attribute a source to a sample that you find in the results that you find in the water water is moving it's coming from all over the place soils have a tendency to hold on to contaminants not move very far so in terms of being able to demonstrate an impact from the site itself it's a much better and more conclusive way to look at soil samples versus water samples . Right and so councilmember Briggs you weren't here and I know your heartstrings getting tugged at right here but but the I wanted to ask the question about soil sampling because I recall when this came back to us it was okay well if you test the soil and you test the entire perimeter of the property and you get positive results well now we know it's not coming from somewhere else because you now this is the soil around the entire perimeter of the property so the what I do know from my my past life is once dirt is contaminated in some particular cases the mother nature's bugs can finally clean it over a really long period of time but but adding adding things to this isn't going to clean up that contaminated soil that's already there it's going to stop further contamination that's correct but I just want to make sure that I understood my recollection this test was correct that we're talking about soil samples not water so we know it's not coming from some other property you're absolutely correct okay thank you doc sure and I and I and I wanted to just clarify or just report that I was glad you read that ordinance because we had this very similar kind of hearing a year so back in August of 2014 and I think every one of us was experiencing what you're feeling in fact the result of that is in the ordinance that you just read if I'm not mistaken that there was nothing required for them to do as far as that best management practices you said that unless once we did the soil sampling something came up and then that would trigger that because if there's nothing wrong there I don't want to I don't want to so anyway that's so I understand did I did I close I close the public okay I did didn't I'm sorry yeah I'm sorry that the public hearing I've been closed I'm sorry yes councilmember Briggs I am feeling feeling that you know that sure responsibility for for them and that makes me want to give like 15 days or you know just 30 days because I feel like you know sometimes it it takes people do things at the very last minute when they realize what they're about to lose I'm sorry you can't you can't do that when they realize what they're about to lose and you know so I don't know if that's possible or if anybody's with me on that but that's kind of where I am so no but anyway I just wanted to put how I felt out there and and I am where you guys were a year ago I guess I appreciate that I appreciate that anybody else I've got a looks like we have a move Kevin you I haven't been watching you any questions or comments okay any other questions or comments councilmember or mayor pro tem Gregory I'm sorry thank you mayor oh did you say comments comments well yeah I mean we yeah before we take a motion and second a vote sure anybody needs to speak um I think the acres family from everything I can tell you guys are a wonderful family and what I'm struggling with is over a year ago we sat here for a long time I mean and there were a bunch of things going on it was with code enforcement cleaning up the place the fence a bunch of stuff I really I went to bat for you guys I think it lasted over two hours specific to that and it's just there there hasn't been any movement on either of the things I'm here I'm hearing I heard everything I've listened to everything but if there was movement on at least the fence then I would have been like maybe maybe give them a chance on this one or and that's what I'm struggling with in the restaurant business if the food inspector comes in and says none of your employees have food handlers cards I'll be back in seven days and if they come back and I still don't have them I can't just keep going well the employees changed at that at City Hall West I have well I didn't get him it just that's where my struggle is I have to play by rules with my businesses or it no but I'm just but I'm just saying like it I feel bad that it's kind of back on us again I felt like over a year ago is when all the second chances were kind of taking place so before I vote I just wanted to state where I was coming from before I voted I'm so for small business in Denton I love this town and I just I'm gonna be voting to revoke the special use permit I do I do have a question we talked about what are some of the what's the processes after certain kinds of things so I just want to ask if an SUP gets revoked and their their actions taken it may indicate compliance with something in the past does this have to come back up for a whole not her hearing if there's a request to have I mean in other words how does someone get a new SUP if one has been revoked well let me let I'm gonna need to look at the the rules and regulations with regard to how that would happen but I would assume if the council acts to revoke the specific use permit tonight then the permit by which this business is allowed to operate the conditions under which it's allowed to operate have been removed by the City Council and therefore the business could not operate on these premises because they do not have the appropriate authority to do so now under our code with regard to moving forward and perhaps allowing them to look at an additional specific use permit we're gonna have to circle back on that depending on what the council does provides you some additional information and give you some good data as far as timing and how that would work I don't have that in front of me right now so I'm sorry I can't do that I would like to also state that the council does have full range of powers before them as we sit here tonight of course before you is the ordinance of approving the revocation also the council has discretion and latitude should you decide to do something lesser than that or give additional time or whatever the council choose to do one question I have and again I'm just trying to understand the different ranges of options and the the consequences of that so let's say for instance there for discussion purposes that some type of additional time is given for certain activities to occur and a date by date certain and that does not that does not happen does it still have to come back for council to revoke the SEP or can part of the ordinance be sort of a strict kind of enforcement of if this is not done then it's an automatic revocation or does it have to come back and be before this body again for a hearing we could we could certainly take a crack at crafting the ordinance such that if the conditions are not met then the the specific use permit is revoked of course as you've seen from listening to the evidence tonight there is some softness with regard to whether or not the conditions have been met that's one of the issues that you've been hearing certainly the city staff has done certain testing and and certainly does believe that pollution has occurred you heard some contrary evidence from the acres family and those representatives so the problem is crafting a condition that is going to be definitive enough on which to base that revocation that's going to be the tough part and there's going to be some judgment calls which could create some issues later on down the road sure okay thank you I appreciate that any other comments questions mr. Rodner you're okay no questions okay mayor protein well I'm all for second chances but that's happened and that happened at the municipal court already and before it came to us and then it's happened with us and our responsibilities are protect the health the safety and the general welfare of the city it's a basic responsibility like councilmember was and he said so regarding item 6e I move approval of an ordinance to revoke a specific specific use permit dated August 5th 2014 allowing a record service in an impound lot on the property located in the employment center industrial zoning and land use district on approximately 1. 3 acres generally located south of Smith Street east of Dallas Drive and north of Teasley Lane and providing an effective date as of the date of the ordinance councilmember Johnson so I was about to second the motion but I'm thinking I want to offer a friendly amendment to see if the city let me see if I can say this right and madam's because what I don't want is I don't want us to see this again either everything that I'm gonna name off is done in the time period that I'm saying it's gonna be done in or the SUP is revoked so I'm gonna try to craft this friendly amendment amendment is I hear the lady here saying give me 10 days give me 10 days I'll do everything well I think you're right mayor pro tem second chances have been given with the first case on this property was open in 2010 went back and looked it up so but at this for a while having said that what we've heard tonight is while while I'm not in favor of saying everybody the city is at fault and this guy left and that guy and at some point you got to take personal responsibility I don't think 10 or 15 days is going to kill us here so this is kind of a been operating on that site for 40 years or 50 years or however long it's been second chance second chance second chance I'm gonna try to offer up a put your money where your mouth is friendly amendment which is within 10 days of today's date they shall have built the fence they shall have installed the dr. B you got to help me the the the compost berms they shall have installed the compost berms to the satisfaction of dr. Ken banks they shall have no other code violations on the property at that time meaning what I'm hoping is that we could have a a member of community improvement services go out and do an inspection there'll be no other violations the fence is built and the compost berms are in place all to the satisfaction of dr. Banks and that has to happen within 10 days of today or the SUP is revoked so I know it's driving me crazy too it's a thought I've thrown it out there if anybody else thinks I mean heck we've been at this for five years it's ten days council member Hawkins I think that we're setting them up to fail I 'm willing to give you till the end of the year but I don't want to see I don't want to this to come to council again this it's I don't understand this I mean but I'm just saying ten days is not enough for you to build a fence Thanksgiving is next week but that's why I'm saying like it's just always like this and I'm not trying to talk down to you or anything it's just well so we and I want to figure out what the real days are that it can actually happen if we're gonna do this and then that's it I'm I don't want to ruin a small business in town but it's like it's being put on us like we're the ones who are doing it and that's where I get bothered so okay councilmember Briggs Oh Kevin I'm sorry councilmember Briggs can I get yes sir Kevin councilmember Rodin yeah I'm just gonna chime in and say that there's a certain integrity to the SUP process that I'm hearing my echo let me take this off to the SUP process and I worry when future citizens come up and we're applying conditions to protect neighborhoods or protect other assets to the city that the more chances we give the folks to be able to violate the terms and conditions of the SUP it's going to make a lot of other people nervous when they come work with us towards some conditions in an SUP to make a project better so I'm worried about the precedent this sets to just continue on I'm working that in ten days or 60 days we're going to come back and have a similar type conversation and I think there's an integrity to this process integrity to what an SUP means and so I think there's got to be a time when the council says enough is enough this means something when we all agreed to this and so I'm in favor of the original motion as proposed by councilmember Gregory all right councilmember Briggs I wanted to thank Councilman Johnson for saying that and for for feeling for going back and feeling kind of the way that I feel I don't know I just see I see her crying and you guys have given them second chances and I believe you and I am I do not like polluters and pollutants at all and I can't even believe that I want to give you this chance but but I do because I see you've got you're ready to go I don't know what took you so long but whatever it was it might have been money it might have been disagreements it might have been you just didn't want to but now I see that you really want to because you don't want to lose your business and so I mean that that's where I am I'm with Councilman Johnson I may approach him Council member Johnson had one thing he wanted to chime in before yes go ahead I'm on withdrawal my amendment and I'm on the second your motion okay because councilmember Rodin is so right and that's what I hadn't thought I mean you know I'll let myself get sucked back into where we were a year and four months ago or three months ago whatever it is but if we can't respect the integrity of this process then we can't hold anybody accountable and so you know so before you had I'm gonna withdraw my friendly amendment and I'm gonna second your motion mayor pro tem well as the discussion goes there seems to be some of the some of us up here that are feeling ownership of taking away somebody's business and that's just not the case it's not the case you know that was a the the when we have moments every day when we choose to act or we choose not to act and those are choices and and the fact that it wasn't until just a few weeks ago that mr. Edwards has started working on a plan when he could have been working on a plan and and I'm not nearly as concerned about the fence as I am about the pollution and and that's a real issue for me and so I I love the fact that we that there's a lot of sympathy for the folks but but we have some responsibilities too and and everybody has responsibilities when we live in a community we have responsibilities to respect the folks downstream from us and and we have to take those responsibilities seriously we've said you have these responsibilities to get them done it didn't happen councilmember no I'm sorry the public hearing's been closed I really do apologize councilmember Briggs I wanted to ask because I wasn't sure can they read can they reopen their business in this location at some future time like again we're gonna have to look at that but with regard to the see the the planners back here nodding their head we do need to look at this but with regard to the the portion related to the specific use permit not as long as that permit is revoked and then we will look at any options that might be available but we're gonna have to take a look at that and research it for you so I have a question of clarification because I know it was pointed out there was a so the SUP applies to the storage portion of this lot is that correct and the point so it applies to the towing service and the storage area or is it this I mean if they didn't store any vehicles if they told them but didn't store them which I don't know how you can do that but so I guess I'm trying to get a clarification of the parameters or the boundaries of this if any so I think it's record services and impound lots okay that's okay what repeat that one more time it's record services and impound lots that's what the SUP implies to the business operations okay and and so I think it's a very good question as far as so the uses of the use is allowed on this property with an SUP that is correct okay so SUPs revoked things get put in place is there that ability and I couldn't there may be some time wait like if you turn down a zoning application they can't come back within a certain amount of time unless there's been a material change we're gonna have to research that like the city attorney has said if it has if it had been an SUP hearing that was denied there would be a waiting period but we don't we're not sure on a revocation if there's a waiting period do you know what the period if it was denied with that period would be believe it's a year okay but we don't know about a revocation okay all right okay no yes I'll stipulate in the conversation that if if the acres go and do the treatments that should have been done by now to the property and the fence is done the the the screening is done to to to filter out the pollutants there's no other problems with the property I would be perfectly happy to to vote yes if an application for an SUP came up this is not a permanent condition and it could be it could be rect ified I would think fairly shortly but but I think that a vote on this to to revoke this permit now sends a message that we're serious I guess and I appreciate that I my question then becomes we're we're we're taking a vote that has some uncertainty as to the ability to come back whether it be within a year or what that is so my question is for the city attorney is if within this motion it was the desire of this body to either waive or deduce I say hey that once it gets cured that an SCP can come back within so many days in other words we put some kind of language that allows us to move beyond whatever uncertainty we don't have in the code right now because we could if the code says if we did not you can't come back within a year but the council could consider that couldn't I mean that's not something that as the legislative body we have the ability to to do something does that make sense what I'm saying okay all right I just want to make sure I'm trying to trying to be clear okay so that's something that could be done if this body well to clarify if the secondary is interested I would I would would simply add language to this ordinance to say that once the the the conditions have been cured on the property there would be no waiting period for applying for another SUP I'll be fine with that but I want to make sure that we clarify what the conditions mean meaning that they would meet all requirements you operate there to to receive an SUP again not only the fence but the but the barriers the type B buffer that was mentioned earlier all the things that that we would require that all those be met only then would we consider right is that am I saying the same thing I'm good with that amendment okay and so there's mud go ahead and he's looking at me like you're not making any sense so let me make sure I understand this and just for me so to me what I understand the motion on the floor to be in seconded is that the SUP as as here in this agenda item would be revoked that upon the completion of the conditions that have been found to be in violation that precipitated this hearing of revocation that upon completion of those that the applicant would be able to file for a new SUP as prescribed by the current ordinance without any without any time any waiting period my hesitation is that if if the if there is a condition on the revocation as far as a timeline in our local ordinances then our letter dated ordinance can overcome that if it is embedded in state law which I don't have in front of me right now then you will have attached a condition that could be problematic so in that respect moving forward without that information is it could put that piece of what you're proposing in question there's another possibility I'll lay out I don't know if if you're interested in it you could continue this entire case giving the applicant a bit of time to comply with the original conditions of the specific use permit which was granted by the council in August of 2014 and if upon the arrival of the date to which this matter would be continued the applicant has still not complied with the conditions then promptly move forward with the revocation at that point in time so my suggestion there would be the possibility the other another option of continuing this to date in December or perhaps if you want a date in January the applicant would have a bit of time and then we would look at this again with with fresh eyes in light of giving them that additional time councilmember Wasney I'm good for 30 days I'm not good for anything longer than 30 days I think we've been doing this since 2010 this is almost 2016 so as long as the applicant realizes it's now or never you've got 30 days to get this done come back before this body and planning can verify that everything is is done if it's not done then the SUP is revoked and and that's that's done it is is a councilmember Johnson so we 're right back to my friendly amendment that's awesome good have all been eating pizza at this point no so here's my issue so we we had a I think we're back to what we're considering right now is the motion from mayor pro tem to revoke the SUP with the understanding that if the applicant if there is a waiting period required to apply for an SUP reapply for an SUP that that would be wa ived the city attorney's concern is that that if there's a state statute so I might offer that we could just simply add unless there is a state statute that would prohibit such refiling in other words we're doing our everything we can do here my concern is that if we go if we if we trick it and say we're going to continue the item for a month well aren't we really just saying we're going to continue the item because we're now we're serious and we're right back to what Dalton was saying and what I'm really concerned about is is more what councilmember Roden was saying which was you know we we have to respect this process and we have to respect the rules that we have in place and sometimes that's uncomfortable for us you know emotionally but so that's why I removed my friendly amendment frankly was because they're right in my opinion and I have to take my personal emotion out of it and do what I think is right and we've been at this since 2010 and so I think this is this reminds me of those situations where you go you know why won't that person's kid behave but because they tell them seven times you're really going to get in trouble this time so they know they got seven times I'm not comparing them to a child I'm saying that's the emotion that gets created here so I'm going to stand by my second and I'm fine with not requiring any waiting period so long as we don't violate a state statute that way I don't want to continue the item and come back and do this all over again in a month they can fix the stuff and come right back and reapply and I think we would all be sitting here clapping for him if that happened councilmember Briggs I'm just curious if there's any contracts that you guys have with with other people in the community that would be affected by this do you guys have I guess that's question directly related or addressed to the members of the audience but do y'all want to give them an opportunity to answer that yes or no or yeah I want to do it yeah rest of the council I'm just yeah simple question if somebody would like to answer that yes or no I mean and I unfortunately we'll have to stick strictly to that here so if someone could approach and answer the question posed by councilmember Briggs okay all right thank you thank you very much I appreciate that thank you yeah I guess my concern and it's not even a concern because I think I'm I'm with everybody here but you said something councilmember John she said we must and councilmember road and you as well we must respect the rules in place my big you know part of the decision-making process for me and what are the consequences of decision what are the rules of that decision and so I understand that we have in the zoning and SUP and all that if something is denied that you have a year to come back but if I'm not mistake first of all is that a local ordinance or is that a state ordinance the one at the one year for if it's denied or if you get a zoning case that's denied you have to wait a year on the denial it's a one-year waiting period and I'm confident it's in our local ordinances but but we don't know if it's in the state ordinance I'm sorry I just okay well my hunch is that if it was then because I remember in the local ordinances that if you that you have to wait a year unless there's a material change there is some qualifying language that allows some flexibility for that if I'm not mistaken probably the same as with SUP so I certainly think that if if this motion moves forward and gets passed and the SUP is revoked and those improvements take place I think it'd be reasonable at least from my perspective that could be a material change in the circumstances as then prior to which may trigger a time frame I just I'm concerned that I just don't understand so well I'd really like to outside of this issue make sure we understand clearly on denials and things and revocations that we really get to handle on what what those consequences are and if people coming back councilmember Wasney great people in planning in your car go down there in person and solve your problem in person don't rely on the tell them look at it in the email and reapply which will have to fix it all and then reapply for that special abuse program thank you everything that's done that we would seriously consider that approval okay I pro tem I saw you did you withdraw councilmember Briggs I just wanted to make sure that if we do vote if I do vote yes that they will have an option if everything is fixed to get their business back and running again like I want to make sure that that is confirmed as well as as I understand it that's been the motion and that's the language in the motion but what I hear from the city attorney is that there's a little uncertainty at least based upon state if it's truly local law we have the ability to do that but for and so correct me if I'm wrong that if there's something in state law that would preclude us from that would we be preempted or I mean that so so it's possible that it that wouldn't happen I hear I'd the answers I don't know but yeah okay thank you mayor pro tem I'm not inclined to change the motion hearing the conversation that's going on it would seem maybe a less convoluted thing if there's this last ditch effort to give folks more time for for there to be a motion simply to postpone action to a date certain whether it's December the 15th which I think is the last meeting that we have this this year or or to January I guess the next meeting is January the 12th I'm trying to look it up if if there's if there's if there's this much concern on the part of our attorney that this made that the that our attempt to allow the acres to cure this problem quickly and get back into business then if we postpone this to a date certain and then simply brought it up and if and if it's not fixed then it's done well know the answer without without two hours of conversation on it don 't need two more hours the fence is there the the the filters there or it's not so so a parliamentary procedure would be for someone who didn't make the motion or the second to move to postpone you know withdraw I'm sorry councilmember Johnson that's all well I was saying if I don't mind making a motion but right now he's still on there as having made a motion so that it will that over that parliamentary it precludes the other motion from being okay right if someone makes a motion to postpone that takes precedence and that has to be voted first and then you take up the the main motion okay so you 're still on there yeah okay so around the world back again I'm totally good with my original friendly amendment then which would be a slight change which would be to postpone but I want to make sure we're postponing taking action we 're not having another public hearing is that correct correct we've had our public hearing we would not have another public okay so I would then make a motion that we postpone taking action on this item until a date certain December the 15th right that's the last meeting and that's 30 days and the the items that I believe need to be addressed are the all items items that are conditions in the original council action granting the specific use permit all of them not the original one though because we 20 the August 5th 2014 specific use permit but I think the wasn't until our November meeting right that we required so we did the sampling and then we required them after the August meeting to put in the pollution right that was pursuant to our ordinance and pursuant to the orders and 14 yeah I'm gonna trust the madam city attorney so I'm gonna postp one taking action until a date certain December 15th this item and it will really have to state what they have to do right we're just postponing taking action we're gonna postpone it but as I understand what the council desires is that all conditions would be met and the council is accepting and acknowledging the accuracy and validity of the testing done by the city staff consequently the requirement with regard to the stormwater best management practices is in play and the council is expecting to see compliance with that condition addressing that issue I agree that is my motion before I recognize council I'm sorry before I recognize the second councilmember was me so I know this has changed several times and I've been out there and I've been confused about what did they just say so again so December 15th due date after that if it's not all the conditions are not met then the permit is is revoked okay councilmember Briggs and then we'll take the second I really really hope that you take care of all of this because these guys are doing you a big favor up here I figured don't have to respond I'm just saying I'm saying that I that's good okay Councilmember Oden I didn't know if I've been hadn't been watching any questions or comments okay I guess what I would like by that time as well if not sooner in an informal staff report is just the general question of what are the impacts of revocation and reapplication for this type of event irregardless of this particular issue okay we have a we have a and it would be an item for individual consideration of course people still fill out blue cards but the public hearing has been closed yes that's correct be an item for individual consideration okay I'm sorry we have a motion by councilmember Johnson councilmember Hawkins I second I don 't think I'm gonna repeat the motion I think it's been repeated several times so let's vote on the board please we it passes six to one okay we now come to our agenda concluding items oh no I'm sorry seven presentation for members of the public do we have mr. Willie Hutzpeth here our mr. mr. Hutzpeth is not here we'll go on to concluding items any council members have concluding items councilmember Wasney I have four okay the first one is under an open meeting a work session with legal and a discussion by council on the process of taking to a vote by our citizens the plan to spend 225 million on two new power plants the second also an open meeting work session by council on the process and feasibility of hiring an energy analyst consulting firm regarding the plan to spend 225 million on two new power plants the selling of our coal plant and to study all the options the city has as we look at supplying electricity to Denton over the next 20 years number three there's been a movement in one of our historic neighborhoods to work on their neighborhood code and I'd like council to consider either a work session or a resolution with the work session to create a citizen task force to work on the code along with our new historic preservation officer who isn't here yet but to kind of work towards putting that all together and number four a work session with planning regarding plannings notification system in notifying residents of development projects we're getting a lot of feedback from several neighborhoods that the notification system needs to be more efficient and I've had four different neighborhoods come forward with that in the last two months so I would like a work session for us as a council to really dig into how it's done why it's done how it's being implemented how we can do it better because it doesn't make any sense to try to have a meeting and our citizens don't know about it okay a bear pro tem thank you mayor I'd like to put on the list a request for a work session to discuss the before the ethics committee gets too deep into the weeds on a discussion about changing our ethics resolution to an ethics ordinance which I'm all for I'd like for the full council to have an opportunity to weigh in on that so that we give staff a general direction as to to a path to take or a path not to take so that so that we don't go too far down the road in one direction or another direction without an idea of what would be acceptable to the entire council so that's one item the other item is I learned on Facebook last night that one of our former mayors Richard O Stewart Dick Stewart has passed away he was a neighbor of mine growing up he was a mayor for several years served on council before that a great individual human being dedicated to this city in a lot of ways and and I think that I was remembering those that that have served and worked for the city for for a long time and remember mr . Stewart and his family thank you councilmember Johnson thank you mayor Dalton I just get to agree all day today this is awesome so I have written down here I would like to have a work session on the ethics ordinance that's being discussed in the Ethics Committee specifically I think it's important for the full council to weigh in before you know too much staff time was taken too much work is done specifically I think full council gave direction to the ethics committee specific to one portion of it and we talked about the full council having a work session on the remainder of of those items so I just think we need to do that before before that goes too far as far as the citizen task force on the on the Oak Hickory historical district the only thing I would say about that just to kind of weigh in or add in is we have a we have a ad hoc council committee councilmember was named road and myself are on we've been working through a process we know that there's things in the ordinance that we want to do we want to do a complete rewrite we've we've agreed as a sub committee or ad hoc committee to wait until the historic preservation officer is hired so that they could be a part of that process and you know establish that leadership role doing that process so I don't know if I would just propose we might not want to have a work session on that item yet and let that process play out until this HPO is hired and on board and has a chance to get their feet on the ground and then let them share with us their ideas and maybe best practices from other cities I think the goal was to get this person on board and not have them step into something that we've already half-b aked so I would just throw that out as a as an idea third item is and I don't know who this goes to mayor so I'll just I would like for the council to receive a briefing about the group that is promoting anarchy in our city I have a lot of concern about that and I'd like to I'd like for this council to have a briefing and I can let the city manager decide who that should come from okay councilmember Hawkins oh sorry can I get to Kevin since he's he's sort of sure councilmember road we're gonna let you come in so maybe you can get some sleep it's an hour later out there I believe it is thank you very much mayor and thank you all for putting up with this technological evening and I want to thank I know Anita helped us determine the laws associated with this Billy Matthews and his team did a great job setting this all up and get me set up with some equipment to take with me and the whole team that was part of this so I appreciate that it's been interesting to say the least but I did want to request I know there's been some conversation as it relates to fiber access and dentin and we've had some crucial issues in the downtown area that I know have been discussed and are being addressed or being looked at but I think when council asked in in this very agenda item a few months ago that we get a report on that I think we're looking for more beyond just downtown but fiber access to dentin in general I know the mayor specifically asked for how this relates to neighborhood access as well so I'd like to I think it's probably time for a work session on that topic so we can kind of hear we're denting to that what has been talked about and and really let council chime in on the state of things and and give some direction on that particular topic all right thank you councilmember road councilmember Hawkins thank you mayor I kind of would want a refresher on you know council gets the same questions a lot kind of the top 15 questions you know about roads or even lately streetlights or what happened to the the trees and the text-up medians and that sort of thing and sometimes to be honest I don't know how to get those questions answered it takes a little bit of digging and I was wondering if in some sort of informal staff report if there could maybe be just like kind of top 15 questions that staff has kind of received here lately and I even me I've been on council now three years and I think that that would really help me just to kind of who to direct those questions to how you know how to get those so I'm not asking the wrong person or wasting somebody's time and that would be very helpful to me and then to just on a personal note anybody who is watching out there I just want to really thank them for if you've just give me support or Amy support and it's kind of been tough but it's been pretty amazing to to see all the people that are supporting me out there and just kind of on a lighter note like life just kind of still goes on so it's like my son Royal had his last soccer game of the year and he scored his first goal so like all that kind of stuff happens while you're going through all this or one of our really good customers at Royals her son committed suicide I'm not trying to bring everybody down but it's just like I just kind of life's just kind of going on throughout all this and I don't know why I 'm kind of saying all that but I think all this is very important but in a weird way it's it's kind of small too and I'm gonna work really hard as long as I got here in this seat and I just maybe I'm not supposed to say that while I'm sitting here but I'm going to and just want to thank everybody out there thank you councilmember breaks I wanted I want to give a shout out to the city staff of not too long ago I asked for a roundtable discussion on gas well emergencies and that has already been planned and is going to be it's a public seminar on managing gas well emergencies December 12th from 930 to noon here in the City Council chamber and I just wanted to say thank you for that I hope that it's well attended and I also wanted to give a shout out to my son Riley who did his first jazz concert tonight and I have a picture of him here and I'm sorry I missed it I've got a couple I think I asked for a work session for the committee for the historic Commission was an ad hoc committee on historic Commission or what I'm not sure what we call it but I think we can probably combine that update from that committee with sort of what the the plans are the goals with the work session that council member was need asked and sort of get full council direction on how so I think that those are good synergies that I think would work well together I'd like a work session we talked about this during the budget process about the economic development fund for the downtown of a hundred thousand dollars and that would council would come back circle back around to see what if any kind of policy changes we wanted to make to that to expand it to other parts of town we sort of didn't make that decision at the time we sort of abated it and said hey we're not gonna spend a whole lot of new money until we have that discussion so I'd like to get that discussion on the radar I've had a citizen asked me which which was a good a good request especially with some of the new proposed apartment communities that are going in that are single-room occup ancy wanted to see if the police are able to sort of give us an informal staff report on what kind of calls and the volume of calls that are generated from single-room occupancy apartment complexes and how they sort of compare to other apartment buildings or just the city in general to ensure that to sort of give us an idea in that regard let's see a story district I know I'm forgetting something I think I think that's I think that's it for me okay seeing another request to speak councilmember road and thank you so much for being our tester on this new technology I didn't it went off without a hitch so I appreciate everybody involved in that and and get you some sleep I know it's an hour later but you do need to increase the travel budget at ready rosy because that looks like a very old hotel you're in anyway well on that note we will adjourn tonight thank Thank you very much.