Jul 21, 2015 City Council on 2015-07-21 11:00 AM

I'm going to order this Tuesday July 21st 2015 City of Dent on Council meeting. It is now 1103 and we'll proceed through our work session agenda items. Number one is citizen comments on consent agenda items. Do we have any citizen comments? And just to refresh my memory maybe those that are watching that are here, if they have a request on a consent agenda item to speak do they still have to fill out a blue card or is it just simply a hey I'd like to speak? Generally get a blue card here in the work. Okay all right okay seeing none then we'll move on to agenda item number two request for clarification of agenda items listed on the agenda for July 21st 2015. Yes. Just mayor usually we say good morning at the end of the meetings. There you go. That's true. Yes. Sorry. Yes. That's all right. No I should have sent an email but on consent item R I was just hoping somebody could do just a quick overview of how the traffic flow is going to work please. Thank you. Mr. Hawkins I'm going to ask Frank Payne if he would come. Oh I'm sorry Noreen Halsrider is going to address that item . Just to clarify you just want to have the traffic flow is going to looks right now compared to before or how we got to this point? Sure how we got to this point would be good. Okay when this project came about with the street reconstruction we also had it on the update to the mobility plan for the bicycle plan so we try to look at different alternatives for the after and we coordinated with UNT. Basically they wanted to keep High land mostly one way due to safety with the pedestrians having to look one way. They also removed the parking along Highland from Avenue D all the way to Wel ch giving us a lot of room to work so we thought of contraflow lanes in that area also because the couplet for that one-way street is Maple and that was kind of outside the main pedestrian area so we wanted to keep it on Highland but they did want it two way at the Coliseum so that was one issue and then UNT also has closed Avenue D from Maple to Eagle to build their new building I'm not sure if it's a dorm or not but it's the new building so it kind of changed the traffic flow so we wanted to make Maple one way so they can still work around with that parking lot and get out but then when they get to Highland they have a choice of taking a right or left and also helps with the Coliseum traffic. Okay great. Yes, Councilmember Wozni. And I'd like to take consent agenda Q on the North Texas Boulevard bridge pull it off consent agenda and put it into the rest of the council meeting so that we can weigh in tonight. Okay all right thank you. Anyone else? Yes Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. Thank you man. As I was looking at this is on item C and I'm sorry I did not send a question on that I did on item A but if we run into a conflict with the International Residential Code for example if someone is doing a major remodeling of their home and it might trigger bringing a house up to the new code or it might even require it to come up to a new code if for example the energy code regarding windows or something. What happens if that house happens to be in a historic preservation district which takes precedence if there's some code requirements that say you've got to improve but it seems to be affecting the historical preservation area. Thank you Mr. Gregory. Let me ask Rodney Patterson who is our building official if he would respond to that and I'd respond but I probably get it wrong. I'm sorry I didn't ask in advance. Thank you Councilman Gregory. There are specific exceptions in the energy code for historic designated structures now as far as part of being a part of a historic district there's nothing specifically but there are if you're not touching a certain portion of the home you don't have to bring that portion of the home up to current code. With the 2012 energy code which we already adopted more than a year ago there are new provisions which allow you to take certain exceptions for remodels for instance with the software that comes to determine your energy compliance you can choose now a major remodel or renovation and it allows you to hey if I'm not opening an exterior wall I don't have to touch that wall. Say I'm an opening an exterior wall but I can't get the minimum insulation value that's now required per code as long as I completely fill that cavity with insulation then I'm deemed to meet the code so there are certain exceptions that are allowed. So we we have some provisions that that minimize the complex. Correct. Okay thank you. Okay any others I've got a I've got a couple but wanted to give everybody an opportunity to okay. Rodney one of them's free for you because I thought we were gonna somebody sent me an email about us trying to get together to have some get some questions but it never materialized so I apologize for not sending them in advance I really had just had one and I know we talked about this last time and that is the I think it's the residential code one of them where it talks about ventilation that now you have to install mechanical equipment on new construction to bring fresh air in to a home because the energy code now has made it to where quote-unquote the house has to be so tight. Correct. Which on its face is interesting because we 're using more energy to save energy but so I guess though I struggle with that because it just seems sort of counterintuitive and I'm not sure what if anything we can do or I would want to do about that but it just seems sort of odd that we've got a code that is requiring us to be energy efficient which I appreciate but then now it's requiring us to and my concern in the long run in this is we've heard a lot about that Denton sometimes doesn't have enough affordable housing and I'm not just talking about apartments I'm talking about single- family homes that people can not just rent the purchase and I've had several of my builder colleagues just express not any consternation towards the city or anything but just that as these codes continue to become sort of more costly it really prevents us from being able to provide low not low cost affordable new home construction so help me understand and it and I guess I'd ask my colleagues is that am I the only one that so that doesn't sort of make sense too I mean we're requiring everything to be so tight which I understand but now we're requiring mechanical equipment to bring fresh air in and of course I don't know everything that's about that I don't know if it means if people who are susceptible allergies or if there's a lot of humidity you know I just really struggle with that it anybody have any yes mayor I definitely agree with you don't we kind of have something set in place though where we have a percentage that we're trying to hit on top of every year like for am I remembering that right or have I lost a lot of currently our current energy code in the city of didn't we require 4% above base code level to be in compliance with the city of Denton ordinance seeing that concerns me because when does that stop right well I guess I'd like to probably have a little bit more in -depth discussion about this not necessarily that but but I just would like to have more opportunity to talk about it sure and just to clarify the question that you have basically the fresh air is not an not an energy code requirement it is basically a indoor air quality requirement because the energy code is making those homes so tight right in order to get breath able air and keep people from getting allergies and illnesses and things like that you have to bring fresh air into the home we're used to rely on air infiltration through your windows your doors things of that nature okay all right yes that's my was when we do talk about it I'd like to have a couple of contractors in here because that's what they do they build homes they renovate older homes they deal with it every day in regards to the fresh air it may be directed at the carbon monoxide poisoning that continues to be an issue in housing that fresh air coming in is always a balance to that sure carbon monoxide sure but I think I agree let's talk about it more but let's get a couple of contractors and have them weigh in they bring a perspective that we don 't have staff doesn't have but they they do this every day yeah thank you and the other question was in and there was a response to a question that I had then so just a little bit more clarification so it was my understanding that since Denton is in a non attainment EPA non attainment area correct that the state adopts certain energy codes versions like I think currently I believe you stated is 2009 current yes currently it's a 2009 and so because we're in this area there's very little movement that's available as far as if there's a structure that has to you know be remodeled past a certain point because state law says or federal law says that you've got to comply it's got to be at least the same or more stringent than the code that is adopted at the state level is that correct correct even our cog amendments the North Central Texas Council of Government's cog amendments those had to be presented to Energy Systems Laboratory at Texas A&M to be approved as an approved equivalent to the 2009 codes before we could even before cog could even publish those documents out to its membership so if the city of Denton wanted to have our own amendments we would need to submit those amendments to Energy Systems Laboratory at Texas A&M University and they would need to approve those as an approved equivalent to the current state code which currently is the 2009 IECC okay all right good I appreciate that any other comments on this particular topic thank you very much Rodney appreciate that the only other comment I had I don't really am I gonna pull it and I'm not gonna not support it I just when I saw the its agenda item which one is that I mean s is it the last one yes now s which is the contract for attorney services for the NRG lawsuit I mean we may or may not spend that amount if we go fully to trial we probably will and more but sometimes when I see $500,000 contracts I just I get a little shaky but we'll probably spend every bit of that so I'm not gonna ask for in it to be lowered because we'd have to come back but it those are only the comments I have on that yeah no if you hit back say that's fine yeah this mayor this comp professional services contract does relate to the NRG litigation and we ask for an estimate from the law firm with regard to what they thought it would take based on their experience and their work thus far there have been several discovery disputes to date and there's a substantial amount of money on the table I think we can expect this is gonna be a hard-fought piece of litigation okay great thank you any other clarification on agenda items before we move on to agenda item three a couple of housekeeping measures for the regular City Council meeting we have about four citizen reports that are scheduled for the end of the meeting three of them having to do with gas wells and the other one has to do with I'm not sure what it 's called regarding City Hall and we have three citizens reports at the beginning now we have a rule that the first three it's my understanding sort of get to go in the beginning if they haven't been at the beginning for a certain amount of time is there any appetite on the on the council for maybe grouping all the oil and gas well citizens comments together you just want to leave it structured the same I don't have necessarily any preference I just am opening that up for discussion yes customer is that okay madam city manager that we're okay we're not out of I think giving given how potentially long the meeting might be it might be better for those wanting to make comment to put them in front of the meeting if that's what you're asking yes yes just put them all at the front would be my suggestion okay I agree with okay yeah all right seems like we're okay with that sure and you're saying all of them yes even though they're not guess that's fine so if there's a way we might could if there's a if there's an avenue to contact maybe those that have been placed at the end just to give them a courtesy call saying that they have the ability to be at the front doesn't mean necessarily that they have to choose that if they want to stay in their position they certainly can but we're giving that that opportunity and also on agenda item work agenda item I believe it's C which is receive report hold discussion about the CVB we have a council member who's absent who wanted to also just be here for that presentation and we may or may not get to that so we might have to go into closed session before that I just wanted to let the people here for that to know that that might be the case I just don't know yet just as a courtesy piece of information all right fantastic we'll go on to work session reports agenda item 3 which is a receive report and hold discussion to give staff direction regarding the results of the 2015 citizen and business surveys thank you mayor these are two pieces of work that we've had underway for some time that we've discussed with council before it will be a valuable tool to the city as we move forward and I'm going to let Allison Ream our manager of administrative services introduce the topic and our presenter today thank you thank you George last September the council held a planning retreat and during those discussions asked the staff to look at conducting a community survey to help give some context to your strategic planning and your budget processes coming so we 've been working with the National Research Center to do two separate surveys one is a survey of citizens and the other is a survey of businesses and we 've conducted those surveys in April and May of this year and are here this morning to present those results to you so I'm happy to introduce a representative from the National Research Center Dmema Mann who is the senior survey associate and she's going to be talking through those results with you thank you for having me here today and a special thanks to Allison she was our main contact for both of these projects and she was really terrific to work with just to give you a little brief overview of our firm National Research Center we are an independent social science research firm based in Colorado we've primarily worked with local governments all across the country we've worked with hundreds of local governments in almost every state in the nation including a couple dozen in Texas we've been conducting citizen surveys for about 21 years and the principals of our company literally wrote the book on citizen surveying it's now in its third publication through the IC MA press and we've had a long-standing partnership with ICMA the International City and County Management Association as well as National League of Cities as Allison mentioned we just conducted two separate surveys for Denton the National Citizen Survey or the NCS as we refer to it and the National Business Survey or the NBS both of the surveys help measure community livability the National Citizen Survey focuses on community characteristics governance and participation while the Business Survey focuses on community characteristics governance business climate and workforce and really the the theory behind both of them is similar in that great communities are partnerships of the government private sector community-based organizations and residents and so they're both really great tools for performance measurement and strategic planning the Business Survey specifically can help to improve government and business relations it can potentially help retain existing businesses help the city enhance business friendly policies and help inform strategic economic development plans while the Citizen Survey also can help with strategic planning budgeting communications performance measurement both surveys are focused if you've had a chance to look through the reports at all yet you'll see that we organized the results around these eight facets of community livability and their safety mobility natural environment built environment economy education and enrichment recreation and wellness and community engagement just give you a brief overview of the methods and then we'll get into some some of Denton's specific results but the National Citizen Survey is conducted primarily by mail it was a random scientific sample of 14 households within city limits of Denton and each household was also further identified as being within one of the four City Council districts we received a 21% response rate which is within the average range for a resident survey all households had the opportunity to either complete the survey online in English or Spanish or return the survey packet in the business reply envelope included that response rate that we achieved helps determine the margin of error for the survey results and the margin of error for the Citizen Survey is plus or minus six percent we did scientifically weight the data back to the most recent census population norms available for the city and that helps us ensure that we're getting a true representative sample of Denton residents the business survey was a sample we mailed invitations to participate in a web-based survey to 3167 businesses which from our list we determined were all private sector type businesses in Denton so that includes stores and restaurants and also professional services like accountants lawyers doctors etc they received three mailings a postcard a letter and a postcard inviting them to participate in the survey each mailing contained a web link for the survey and overall the response rate for the business survey was 11% again that's within a normal range for a business survey we do see much lower response rates for business surveys than resident surveys and because the survey was intended to be taken by all businesses in the community and no statistical weighting was performed we didn't calculate a traditional margin of error but we do recommend using plus or minus five percentage points as the range of uncertainty for the business survey results the National Citizen Survey like the business survey is mainly a templatized survey with standard questions and that level of standardization allows us to keep costs low while providing a high quality survey tool and it also has allowed us to create benchmark comparisons for each of the items on the survey so in addition to seeing your results we can also tell you how that stacks up to other communities in the nation this map shows you gives you an idea of our benchmarking database for the National Citizen Survey there 's about 550 jurisdictions and that benchmarking database benchmarks for the business survey it's a much smaller pool the business survey we recently rolled that out also in partnership with ICMA Denton is the first jurisdiction in Texas to participate in the business survey and actually just the eighth the ninth in our database so it's a it's a smaller pool Denton's definitely on the cutting edge there of being an early adopter of wanting to reach out to businesses in that way to give you an overview of how Denton stacks up compared to those benchmarks for the National Citizen Survey we would expect we make it pretty difficult to be higher than or lower than that average rating we've calculated so we would expect most items to be similar to the national benchmark which they are in Denton some of the items that stand out in Denton specifically are the vibrant downtown commercial area overall opportunities for education and enrichment opportunities to attend cultural arts and music activities adult education opportunities opportunities to participate in social events and activities and city-sponsored events so those were items that really stood out in Denton as higher than what we see in other communities and in fact some of them are among the highest ratings we see specifically for opportunities to attend cultural arts and music activities and adult educational opportunities yes you started this part by saying you build the survey to make it difficult to not be out of the benchmark it's true and the reason behind that is to give you data that's actionable so areas where you're higher than the benchmark should be areas where you 're really truly excelling and really doing you know better than just about everybody else in our database and the same with areas where you're lower than the benchmark so that's that's the intent there how do you do that well we calculate an average and then we have a range around that average that we consider to be similar to the benchmark so we calculate the average and if you're within ten points of that average rating we've created then you're similar so you have to be at least ten points higher than the average to be higher than the benchmark and at least ten points lower to be lower is it possible for when we get the results to dig deeper into that or or do we just see those big larger groupings in terms of the whole benchmarking pool so so there's a twenty-part point spread from the from the average if we're if we're really you know if we're right next to the top or if we're right next to the bottom and so if there's a couple of other areas we really need to pay attention to because we're likely to either fall out of the benchmark area or we can go higher than that can we get a can we get a view of that yeah we can definitely dig deeper into that there's a technical appendices report that we've given to the city I don't think that you've seen that one yet but that does give the ranking for each item so it shows you out of how many similar jurisdictions ask that question where exactly Denton is so that's how I for instance I could see that Denton you know some of the highest ratings for city-sponsored special events and adult educational opportunities for instance for adult educational opportunities Denton's higher than the benchmark and ranked five of 262 jurisdictions that asked that same exact question so there's only four jurisdictions in our database that got a higher rating so that's one way you can dig deeper looking at that and there's also some other analyses we could do for you if if you take a look at that and you still have some more questions okay thanks I'm sorry to interrupt no problem that's a good question now for the business survey you can see that there were about 47 comparisons available there's 42 additional items on the survey that we don't even have average ratings ready for yet because we have only had nine jurisdictions do this survey so far you know you'll see that a majority of the items for which benchmarks were available are lower for the business survey for Denton because it's such a small pool of jurisdictions at this point you know the benchmarks are there to to be helpful and give a frame of reference but because it's such a small pool I wouldn't place a lot of emphasis on those at this point and ultimately you know the best benchmark for Denton will be to compare Denton to Denton so if you repeat these surveys in the next year or two we'll be carefully you know closely monitoring those trends and comparing your results over time but but again it would also be good if we have a little bit more specificity so of those 36 if there are six that are particularly low it gives us I don't think that we can work on all 36 at once but but maybe if we if we know the some and especially if we see in those those the lowest that there's some common denominator among them that you know just a couple of things could correct several of those and move them up that would be helpful to be able to see more that's a great point and I in you know in terms of the citizen survey there there's a lot of parallels between the two surveys there's a lot of similar questions and overlap and in the citizen survey those seven items that are lower than the benchmark mostly all tend to be within the facet of mobility their overall ease of getting to places people have to visit ease of travel by car ease of public parking traffic flow street repair that kind of thing and so for the business survey there's a lot of parallels I'm going to get into the data you'll see that's those are some of the lowest rated areas so potentially you know the areas you might want to focus on from those on both surveys we asked the residents and also the business owners and managers to indicate what they felt should be the top priorities for the city in the coming two years and for the resident survey residents identified economy and safety as top priorities overall as you can see by the colors for those key focus areas for the NCS overall when calculating overall ratings for each of those facets Denton is similar to the benchmark so nothing leaps out as you know a big concern or anything along those lines and it's it's pretty common across jurisdictions even when there's very high ratings for safety as Denton did have for residents to say safety and economy are the most important that's what we most commonly see when asked for stated importance for the business survey business owner and managers cited economy as well and mobility so we'll get a little bit more into those we'll get into some key findings from both reports Denton residents enjoy a high quality of life and Denton business owners and managers value the community as a place to do business so start with some good news the overall quality of life and Denton was rated very highly by both business managers and owners and residents about an 83% average 85% of residents saying excellent or good and 83% of business owners and managers saying excellent or good most of the questions on both surveys were asked on a scale of excellent good fair and poor residents also rated about 9 and 10 rated Denton as a place to live as excellent or good and a majority of businesses said Denton was a good place to do business looking at some ratings on the citizen survey about regarding life in Denton at least three quarters or more of respondents gave excellent or good ratings to the overall image of the city their neighborhoods and Denton is a place to raise children and at least four and five respondents said that they were likely to remain in Denton for the next five years looking at the business survey now looking at some aspects of doing business in Denton you can see at least two-thirds or more gave excellent or good ratings to the overall appearance overall image Denton is a place to visit and Denton is a place to work and 87% said they were likely to keep their business in Denton for the next five years looking at some comparisons between the two surveys about 57% of residents said that they work in Denton and that's actually a higher rate than what we typically see on the national level more residents in Denton stay here to work than most communities we work with about 44% of residents said that they've lived in Dent on for more than ten years and when looking at some results from the business survey about two-thirds of the business owners and managers said that their workforce lives here in Denton and about three-quarters said that they'd operated their business here for more than ten years Denton is a place to work received high marks from businesses and residents you can see businesses gave that a higher rating 83% saying Denton is an excellent or good place to work and about 70% of residents saying it's an excellent or good place to work when looking at recommending Denton about nine and ten residents said they would recommend living in Denton and about 68% of business owners or managers said they'd recommend operating a business here question sorry to interrupt sure it seemed like in the survey there was a difference between trying to open a business here and then operating a business here and kind of compared to other benchmarks how did that compare the opening you know I'm sorry I don't have the opening the business right in front I know that's kind of I was trying to make sense of that with this data here too I just wondered if that's just kind of a typical thing you know a lot of us aren't very good at opening businesses but we're good at once we get open we're good at doing what we intend to do I think that's a fair point and you know most of the respondents on the survey said that they had already been operating a business here for ten years or more so maybe just the thought of trying to open a new business is daunting regardless of how business-friendly a climate is sure and I feel like you know Denton has been trying to change its story and I think that we've had great momentum moving that way and so it's good to see it in this too you know that that's the way things used to happen here and that's not the way that it is happening now so really questions we calculated some overall averages for those eight facets of community liv ability that I've been talking about and here's how those overall ratings look for each of those facets and how they look when we compare the business responses from the resident responses you can see up at the top both give extremely high ratings to aspects that have to do with education and enrichment so not not surprising in a city like Denton safety also very high ratings then recreation and wellness residents and businesses about three-quarters giving positive ratings to economy pretty similar very similar same with natural environment and community engagement where where the ratings really differ is that residents did give significantly higher ratings to both built environment and mobility and Denton than the business owners did could you I'm looking at the the backup where specifically where it talks about built environment and then the percentage of breaks out did not observe a code violation not under housing cost stress expand a little bit on what you mean by that label that category built in my sure that's a good question it so each of these labels is combining lots of different questions on the surveys built environment aspects have to do with me let me pull up a few examples from the citizen survey right here well here I pull up some from the business report so if you if you're if you've seen the which I think you have the business climate report and the livability reports in the charts in the reports we break out each item by those facets so built environment there's a question on both surveys that asks about overall built environment there's question about housing options quality of commercial development overall quality of development and then as you said also you know has to do with land use planning and zoning building permits and inspections code enforcement utilities storm drainage those those kinds of items so and I think overall it's not it's not uncommon for residents when there are differences like we're seeing here that residents do have more positive opinions than than business owners per se you were reading from the the business survey list that's interesting because I was looking at the backup from the the citizen survey list on built environment and it didn't have some of those same things not all of the questions are identical on the surveys but but the but there should be a good amount of overlap let's see affordable quality housing on the on the citizen survey overall built environment quality of new development in Denton housing options public places where people want to spend time and then again those those utilities and land use and zoning storm drainage so forth well you're still going into more detail than what my backup has I'm gonna I want to want to get it into more of the weeds of this report there's definitely you know there's we do this layered reporting and there's I think you've seen the reports that kind of give you the overview but there is a lot of information and a lot of ways to dig deeper into these analyses and I could you know I know I know you're already planning on a very long meeting today I could probably keep you here for most of it just talking about sure go ahead the next key finding is that you know as we saw when looking at what folks identified as their top priorities that economy is important to residents and business owners and overall ratings were positive in both surveys the overall economic health of Denton was rated as 73 percent excellent or good both by residents and by business owners economic development also rated as excellent or good by a majority of businesses and residents businesses were then also asked to rate the job Denton does it retaining existing businesses attracting new businesses and supporting or creating new jobs and you can see those all range from about 42 to 47 percent not shown on this slide but but one that I thought maybe of particular interest there was also a list that business owners and managers were given of potential services the city could provide and they were asked to rate how beneficial they thought those would be to their own businesses and it was six items all six items were rated as beneficial that was something you know they thought that they would all be good programs but the items that at the top of the list 89 percent saying would be beneficial were increased flexibility of city regulations physical improvements to city owned property like streets and sidewalks and so forth and streamlined permitting we're all at the top there and then financial assistance programs 67 percent that would be beneficial skill-building classes or workshops for workers about 61 percent that could be beneficial and city finance marketing and promotions about 55 percent said beneficial looking at some aspects of the economy rated by both businesses and residents you can see that vibrant downtown commercial area 78 percent think is excellent or good that is one of the items on the resident survey that's higher than the national benchmarks and definitely got very high ratings quality of businesses and service establishments about 75 percent rating those is excellent or good on both surveys a majority giving shopping opportunities excellent or good ratings as well and then about half on both surveys rating employment opportunities is excellent or good the next key finding had to do with mobility as I mentioned before some of these ratings perhaps represent an opportunity for improvement in Denton and just driving through the streets I see it looks like something you're already working on just the season I guess overall ease of travel residents gave higher ratings to this than businesses overall ease of travel was rated as excellent or good by a majority of residents and about four and ten business owners or managers some of the highest rated aspects of mobility on the citizen survey were bus or transit services traffic enforcement ease of walking street cleaning and street lighting on the business survey they had similar items for mobility to rate but the top rated items on that survey with at least 50 percent or more saying excellent or good were traffic enforcement street lighting and bus or transit services when it says traffic enforcement of course there's a picture of you know is that what they're talking about on traffic enforcement is just or is it signal lighting and I mean what it's just worded as traffic enforcement so you're right there's definitely room you know in the perception rating that that people are giving on the survey there's there's room for them to kind of interpret that as what they think you know it could be have I gotten a ticket recently and do it I think I shouldn't have or you know does it seem like people are going the speeds they should be going I'm not seeing people running red lights and getting away with it or you so I think it could be positive or negative okay it's a fair question on the survey some of the lowest rated aspects of mobility you can see you know less than a majority giving excellent or good ratings here 21% giving excellent or good ratings to street repair about a quarter giving excellent or good ratings to traffic flow ease of public parking snow removal and traffic signal timing in the in the 30 to 40 percent range there similar similarly on the business survey street repair and traffic flow received the lowest ratings followed by ease of public parking you can see that business owners have a worse perception of public parking than residents you know because they may be thinking about how that impacts their own specific business and accessibility for their clients or customers one aspect of the national both the National Citizen Survey and the National Business Survey is that there is room while the surveys are mainly templat ized and standardized there is room to ask some questions that are fully customized to Denton and so this is what the city chose to ask some custom questions that had to do with city communications and customer service provided by city employees and these sets of questions were asked on both surveys so the first question asked residents and and business owners to rate several different aspects of the city's communications and on both surveys the items that received the highest ratings of excellent or good were the quality of the city's website and the availability of information about city programs and services the lowest rated items and you can see these full lists in the in the full reports but the lowest rated items on on the surveys were a little bit different from each other on the resident survey about 48 percent gave excellent or good ratings to city efforts to educate citizens about environmental and sustainable practices and about 51 percent gave excellent or good ratings to city efforts to keep citizens informed about local issues well those were the lowest rating that's still about half saying excellent or good and overall the ratings for city communications by residents ranged from 48 percent to 64 percent excellent or good on the business survey side of things the lowest rated item was the relevance of questions and topics on engagedenton.com 39 percent of businesses gave that an excellent or good rating and about 41 percent gave excellent or good ratings to city efforts to engage citizens on social media sites. The next question asked residents and businesses to indicate how much of a source several different methods of obtaining information about the city government and its activities events and services are and you can see these are the top cited information sources by businesses and residents about 95 percent of business owners said word of mouth was was a source for them and about 88 percent of residents said that about nine and ten businesses and residents cited the city website so it's definitely a place people are going and relying on for information about the city and then about 90 percent of businesses and about 80 percent of residents cited the Denton record Chronicle the least used sources of information both by residents and businesses where the city YouTube channel local blogs and homeowner and neighborhood associations residents and businesses were also asked to indicate their preferred method of customer service interaction with city employees you can see that about 39 percent of businesses and about a quarter of residents said they prefer telephone about a quarter of businesses prefer in person or face to face versus about a third of residents and you know close to about 20 percent of each prefer email other items that were listed were all selected by less than one in ten of respondents and they included internet and mobile phone apps social media mail and fax and live chat on the city's website the final custom question asked red thinking about your most recent experience with the city of Denton please rate your impression of the following categories of customer service performance and this again was asked on that excellent good fair or poor scale the top rated items were the courtesy and helpfulness of city staff the availability of city staff the competence and knowledge of city staff all of the items that were listed were rated as excellent or good by at least two-thirds respondents so city staff was definitely highly regarded by both businesses and residents just to kind of wrap up what we've been talking about overall quality of life in Denton and Denton as a place to live and do business received very positive ratings both from businesses and residents the economy was identified as being one of the most important things for the city to focus on both by residents and businesses and those ratings overall were positive mobility represents a potential area of opportunity for improvement and that was also identified as one of the most important things for the city to focus on by businesses and in general survey respondents are pleased with Denton communications and and city employees happy to answer any questions any additional questions yes it's a great activity thanks for doing it how often do you recommend that cities repeat this or not how I know how often you want to recommend how often do cities generally repeat this the most common cycle is every two years every two years we do have a number of clients that survey annually I'd only recommend that if you know you have this the staff time and resources to really be digging deep into the results each iteration on an annual basis it tends to be you know pretty large cities and counties that do the annual iteration but every two years is very common most common and then every three years is probably the third option I'd love to get a copy of today's PowerPoint because we have PowerPoints of both of the the citizen survey and the business survey but not the one that you did to compare it so if we could just get that I'd like to get a copy of the entire report at some point do we have demographic data on the citizens yes is that in the entire report yes it's there's a technical appendix report and also a demographic cross tab report both for the resident survey and the business survey so there are great ways to dig deeper and there has been that analysis has been has been done do you recall if any of the businesses that were contacted or property management companies I don't but I know there's a question that asks what type of business and that's broken out in detail in that report and I noticed under under the questions on governance at least among the citizen survey that there was one question on a question about value of services for taxes paid what is that the question yes okay yeah that's the way it's worded is that the only question about taxes in the survey about taxes yes there's more questions about public trust but that's the only tax specific question in the in the template survey if there were you know the next time you do the survey if you were interested in digging deeper into the into a tax issue finding about about value or if you were potentially looking at you know raising rates or trying to gauge where people think their tax dollars are being spent you know something along those lines that's something we could do in the custom question section thank you for indulging all of those questions at one time I'm done yes I said one how long does this whole process take just kind of front and there it's designed because they're you know pretty templatized to surveys it's designed to be pretty turn key and so the typical timeline takes about 16 weeks from start to finish okay it's definitely something we've done in a much more compressed time frame to everybody's in a hurry for some reason but if we're in dude every two years just kind of in my mind when we need to do it again so thank you I know you said that the response rate was pretty typical it seems kind of low and I know that in every aspect of it's it's low these days so is there anything that we can do to before the next one to try to increase that participation you know I think that publicizing these results and you know having this meeting and you know if you choose to put them on your website or whatever you do can help as an engagement piece because people realize oh this survey comes and if I fill it out it actually is going to make this impact and like I can see these results and the city is making decisions based on this data and so so you know my what I say is valid they're doing something with it so I think that's that's a great first step and then certainly you know if you want to do some promotions around the survey when it's time to do it again we can share some sample press releases and that kind of thing for the business survey to try and increase participation I don't know you know if maybe you'd want to try and partner with the Chamber of Commerce on that trying to have them get the word out to businesses that kind of thing okay but we can help you brainstorm with them thank you I think this is for staff whoever the staff person was is that you Brian so whoever the staffer is I've got a couple of questions I don't think it's it's directed at you I'm sorry okay so just question for citizens who want to know what did this survey cost that's a good question also probably out there I was about forty thousand dollars for both surveys and other question they have we tried this before with a survey on a city's website because I had several requests from citizens who heard there was a survey but they were kind of frozen out of that have we done this before so that we could advertise we have a survey go to the city's website and have them answer questions sure we the previous area that we did is was in 2008 and I'm not sure how if people are allowed to self-se lect in that or not the way that we chose to approach this was because we wanted the results to be a representative sample we went with this option where you mailed out and you selected them based on their geographic area based on their demographics so that we would have results that would apply for the whole city so people weren't self-selecting we do kind of individually or by service surveys all the time of residents of users of customers where we do advertise those where we advertise them on social media or on the website and ask for impact or further input the next time we do that we could have an option I think NRC has a separate option where you also in addition to these more scientific type results have a web survey where people can self-select in and give their comments it's a little harder for us to then interpret those because we don't it's not as a representative sample but I'd sure like to see if we do this again to see it because people who come to the city website there are people who are paying attention they're engaged I want to know what they have to say so I would really like to see that next time sure we can certainly do that got a question oh I'm sorry go ahead kid thank you mayor the last one you answered one of my questions 2008 I think just for frame of reference I'd love to see a copy of that I'm sure I have a fun or had one at some point in time but to just get that electronically to understand what are some similarities from that one in other words what have we not improved upon since 2008 if they're saying the same things back then as they are now and then the question for you guys is what's our follow-up from this a lot of these align with some of our strategic goals already so there's not a ton of surprises in there it's good to get this additional exclamation point on something we already sense or what we're hearing anecdotally from from residents what's our follow-up plan and how we're going to deal with this both as part of our upcoming budget process and planning moving forward I'm gonna answer your first question and then let Brian talk about the budget process but we can certainly provide a copy of the 2008 survey results I think they're currently on the website but we'll send you a copy to those okay one of the reports that we had one was a comparison of those two surveys so not apples to apples exactly because they're different instruments but in these kind of broad ranges is there is a comparison of results then from results now great that's a good point what are we going to do with the data that's the most important thing now that we have it and one of the key outcomes that we had out of the 2008-2009 survey was street maintenance was a key issue for us and we asked some very good questions about that got some good responses that really formed the basis of our strategic plan that we began working on in that 2010-2011 time frame and street maintenance as everyone knows and the council has been a huge focus of us ever since I see that as a common element that we saw again in this survey I don't think that 's a surprise but it helps validate some of the things that we're trying to do and some of the key action steps that we're taking in the strategic plan so I think that's the connection is to continue to work on some of those things and if we dig a little deeper in the data see if there's additional items that we want to pull out thanks and that was good that was gonna be my question is what are we gonna do with the data so I appreciate you answering that any other questions all right thank you very much thank you for that presentation you bet thank you just for manager when you saw the results when I've heard there's not a whole lot of surprises in fact there's a lot of confirmation of what I get a sense of from my regular communications through emails and through visits with citizens were you was there anything you were surprised about is there anything that that this is making you think differently about or to focus on different I think one of the things that miss man mentioned when she started her presentation was what's gonna be very more useful to us going forward is being able to compare Denton to Denton as we perhaps do this again and we look at the national benchmarks and I was frankly pleased with some a lot of the responses but what it has done is illustrate some areas that although we're working on them are areas that it validated their areas that we need to be working on and we still got a lot of room for improvement but what's really going to be valuable to us I think is if we did this two years from now and could compare this statistically accurate survey to another one similar to that so that we can see how much progress we're making so I look at it as an incredibly valuable tool and I know talking that you and I visited with some folks when we were in I guess Washington or somewhere before about the value of this and I think it's proved that it's going to be that valuable to us yeah councilmember Hawkins well and added that I was encouraged by the business-friendly data that was on this and I think it's going to be a lot easier for Denton to start changing its story and telling its story that we are that city that is becoming business-friendly with data that actually backs it up so I just want to applaud staff on that I know it's been tough and there's been some people changing around and some a lot of just projects stacked on people's deaths that they just had to work on diligently and anyway just one additional comment I mean I think the council's willingness to let us do this survey to begin with is critical but also the ability of the staff some of the responses to this tell us what we need to do and not being defensive about that but moving forward to make the improvement that's what's going to be really make it worthwhile okay any other questions for this agenda item seeing none we'll move on thank you all very much agenda item 3b is receive report and hold discussion regarding adding craft alcohol production to the Denton Development Code now for a more exciting topic I'd like to ask Amy Bissett our director of planning and development to present this item it is almost noon we get samples right you're not the first one to ask for samples Joey I'm a politician now thank you mayor and City Council members and the this agenda item today is a contemplated addition to the Denton Development Code and Joey to your point on the previous agenda item about a stack of projects on staff members desks certainly amendments to the DDC are are among those stack of projects we've identified a handful of those that we think need to come forward quickly and this is one of them and so I want to acknowledge the staff member that's done all of the diligent and very rapid paced work on this project and that's Mike Bell he is sitting in the audience today Mike was recently promoted to senior planner so please congratulate him and one of many adjustments that we're making in the planning department to make certain that our staff members are valued and compensated appropriately for the level of work that they're doing and this is this is an instance where this certainly applies and we've this is this may be a record for the quickest DDC amendment ever brought forward and it's for some very specific reasons and so this is a proposed addition that would allow for craft alcohol production in certain zoning districts that is currently prohibited today and this is really arising out of a need that we've seen a trend of businesses that want to open microbreweries specifically in our downtown and urban core and we don't have an allowance for that the way the DDC has written today certainly from an economic development standpoint we think this is important we think that it is a desirable use downtown it has the potential to attract visitors and shoppers and be an addition to our quality of life and but we need to be able to reflect that in the DDC and so that's what we're considering today it will be a public hearing this evening as well so where we are today is that currently if somebody wants to open a microbrewery we would classify that as light manufacturing and we're proposing that we create a new definition for craft alcohol production and that would be a new use downtown and there are reasons for that that I'll go into in a little more detail just to give you a little bit of history and perspective on why this is coming forward in 2013 overall beer consumption reduced by 2% in the US but craft beer production increased by 18% this is obvious an obvious trend nationally that's actually been growing for several years now and microbreweries have characteristics that differentiate them from larger scale breweries they typically produce around 15,000 barrels a day or less and they have more handcrafted traditional ingredients in a smaller production and it's typically local owners or domestic ownership. In compiling this information for you our staff members looked at ordinances or codes for 14 cities including four in the state of Texas and several findings were made as a result of that analysis including we found that codes that that accomplish what we'd like to accomplish specifically differentiate between brew pubs and microbreweries which I 'll talk about momentarily and they typically restrict productions to a certain set volume that makes it a smaller production amount although there were some exceptions to that. It's microbreweries are typically permitted by right in industrial districts with no limitations and they're either not permitted or permitted with a specific use permit in commercial and downtown districts. So currently in the city of Denton we would classify a microbreweries light manufacturing which would not be permitted downtown as a primary use and would only be permitted if it was considered an accessory use to a restaurant or retail environment an example of that would be the barley and board restaurant that's getting ready to open in the Texas building they'll they'll brew beer but it 'll be an accessory use to the restaurant. So this proposal addresses the following needs that we would permit microbreweries downtown without allowing all light manufacturing that was one of our alternative options was that we would could change the downtown zoning district to allow for light manufacturing but we felt like that might open it up to some uses that we really wouldn't find desirable downtown. We are proposing that we require on-site consumption specifically in the downtown in core zoning districts and that the allowed use would maintain an appropriate scale and that it wouldn't affect the restaurants that brew beer is an accessory use. So we propose new definitions in sub chapter 23 including craft alcohol production which would be defined as a business that primarily manufactures alcoholic beverages for wholesale distribution but may also include on-site consumption and/or retail sales and we would like to propose a definition of restaurant brew pubs specifically which would be a restaurant that also manufactures alcoholic beverages as an accessory use primarily for on- site consumption or retail sales. So these are the proposed restrictions or limitations for the various zoning districts. The downtown and urban core of Denton we would propose that it not be an allowable use in our residential zoning designations but that it be allowed with a specific use permit for downtown commercial neighborhood and that it be allowed with a limitation allowed by right with a limitation for downtown commercial general. That limitation would be that we would require on-premises consumption and/or retail sales and that the use would be limited to no more than 10,000 square feet of gross floor area for the production and bottling package storage and anything that's specifically manufacturing related. So they might have some other functions within a building that would be more than 10,000 square feet but it wouldn't be related to the manufacturing of the beer specifically. We would however allow a specific use permit if they wanted to exceed that 10,000 square feet. In rural areas we propose that it not be permitted in rural residential but that it would be permitted within an SUP in rural commercial. In neighborhood centers we would propose that it not be permitted in any of those zoning districts with the exception of the mixed use component in NRMU and that would be only with a specific use permit. It would have to be that the SUP would be conditional upon a certain square footage that they would require or that they would indicate to us so we would just we would take you know if they say they want a hundred thousand square feet we would consider that in their application and it may be that that that would be too onerous in that specific area. Correct. Regarding on-site on-premise consumption and I know the state has a lot of rules about you cannot consume on-site in certain places where you're buying alcohol or you must only consume on-site and other places I can't figure out how they do that distinction but if you're we have a brew pub downtown and they're brewing a beer that you really like and you want to take some home with you but on-premise consumption is all that's allowed it seemed like I'd read somewhere in here where there was a provision that you could that they could sell so you could take a growler home or give it to a friend or something like that is there is there some way to do that? I'm not really familiar with the state laws on there's a lot of intricacies involved there that where retail sales would not be permitted with on-site consumption and Mike may be able to address that a little more specifically most of that most of that is regulated at the state level and I know there have been some recent changes but I don't know the details thank you Mike. Yeah there are some differences in what type of license you get from the TABC in terms of what you are but I think your question was could you do the growler sales and that was the retail sales we would consider the growler sales retail sales which is the and/or in this limitation. Okay so that L12 might allow on-premise consumption and retail sales. Correct. Okay so somebody could apply for that in the general downtown and so that you could do both if it's meeting the state requirements too. Yes and it's also in the restaurant brew pub definition where you could do both as well. Thank you. Thank you Mike. Councilmember Hawkins. Just to follow up on that they have to make beer there in order for you to be able to consume beer there like a retail location couldn't piggyback or get a different zoning and all of a sudden you could drink just at a normal retail location. Well normal retail right now we permit it as light manufacturing so downtown today you could do that as an accessory use so today if somebody wanted to do a retail and have accessory brewing they could if it was less than their primary use. Okay. Under this consumption under this definition they might be both retail sales and craft alcohol which would both be permitted. Okay. For clarification that would be permitted by the city but they would have to meet TABC and state requirements which may put some limits on that that we wouldn't necessarily. Councilmember Wasney. So to follow up with Dalton's question because I've seen successful micro breweries in other parts of the country and people before a party will go in and pick up two or three different kegs different sizes to take home for a party and so that would allow for the L12 that's permissible or if somebody wants to buy a six-pack or something big they 're still allowed to buy it and take it home. That's correct we want that type of component downtown so there's storefront promotes walkability downtown. I think it makes the business more successful because it's based on sales so. Any other questions at least while Mike's standing? All right I believe we were discussing neighborhood centers and we would not permit this as a use in obviously residential neighborhoods but we would propose that it be an allowable use with an SUP in NRMU specifically. In commercial mixed-use centers we would propose that it be allowed by right with the limitation that would be the same limitation downtown. In regional mixed-use centers in the residential components or residential zoning districts it would not be permitted. In the regional center commercial neighborhood district it would be permitted within SUP and RCCD would be permitted with the limitation. We would propose that it be permitted in employment centers and industrial centers as well with no limitations. How do we compare? This is a comparison that Mike put together with the city of Dallas. Dallas caps the square footage at 10,000 square feet. We allow 10,000 square feet by right especially in the in the downtown core area and we do allow for an exception to that with a specific use permit. We permit by right in the industrial zones as does Dallas. In the downtown zones we would permit it by right if it were under 10,000 feet and by SUP if it were over 10,000 feet and that is more flexible than Dallas's code specifically and then we would also require on on-site consumption or retail which Dallas does not require and that the aspect there is that then it makes it a visitor and shopping draw for pedestrians and for it makes it more accessible for our typical visitor or resident that's meandering downtown. The Planning and Z oning Commission does recommend approval of this as does staff and with that I will answer any questions you may have. Any other questions? So what was the justification or is it justification to allow more than 10,000 square feet in the downtown area? If we did allow it it would be with a specific use permit which means that they would have to demonstrate to us that we would have the infrastructure in place to be able to support it so if you get over 10,000 feet you might have more trucks coming in out in and out and we would want to be able to weigh that and make sure that it wasn't a burden on the infrastructure and the mobility of the downtown area but we do think that there might be some instances for example if we have a local microbrewery who is operating downtown and is very successful which is a real example of what's coming they might gain in popularity to the point that their their wholesale distribution demands might call for them to need more than 10,000 feet and in that circumstance we would consider that on a case-by-case basis. It might get to 15,000 feet and us reach a place where we think that they would need an additional location that was not downtown because of the burdens that it might put on on the infrastructure downtown but we want to have that flexibility for them on a case-by-case basis. Personally I'd like to see it capped at 10,000 feet because of the truck traffic coming in for a bigger facility. Once you allow an SUP you know it kind of opens Pandora's box and once you allow one then somebody else is going to come in so I just see downtown as small and intimate that's kind of what's made us special and put us on the map so anything bigger than 10,000 feet my opinion probably too big for our downtown. With a specific use permit we would certainly look at putting conditions on an approval of every specific use permit so that if we felt like 12,000 square feet would not put too much of a burden on downtown we would set that as a condition of the specific use permit which would have to be would have to be approved by or recommended by P&Z and approved by the City Council by way of public hearing so it would be considered by the City Council each time before being approved. I don't know if that makes you more comfortable with it or not but it would be limited without approval. Yes. Thank you Mayor. We certainly have a lot of beer trucks downtown already causing some problems but yeah I think I think your your startup brewery is going to be much smaller than that. I think the question would be is somebody willing to invest in a much more costly investment going downtown initially than it would be say going on the outskirts of town in some cheaper type of a building situation with easier infrastructure issues if they thought if I get successful and I am approaching that 10,000 which we want and want them to be successful and being downtown might be a part of their success and they're creeping up to 11,000 or 12,000 are looking at that their five-year ten-year plan I would think if I'm a brewer I might have a second thought of investing downtown if there wasn't any possibility of getting some sort of larger footprint and it might be in my existing building and I'm only taking up 5,000 feet of it now I've got room in that building to expand to 15,000 feet so I think the goal would be to say we want you to feel comfortable coming in here knowing that if you're successful you're not going to have to leave town to go somewhere else that will allow it so that's where I feel a little bit more comfortable knowing that there's a public process that and we'll probably have years of experience with that particular brewery to get a good sense of whether or not that's something we'd want to continue or expand but I think it would give the comfort level for folks wanting to invest initially knowing that so that's why I think it's a helpful provision. Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. Thanks. Well I appreciate your comments Councilmember Wasney I think that's important to think about but I think we also have to think about what where is that area that we're calling downtown because it's yeah if I'm thinking about just the streets right around the courthouse or one block away from the courthouse you know 10,000 feet might be about as much as you could get but if you're talking about four or five blocks away then maybe 15,000 feet would be perfectly okay. I guess the question that I was thinking about before you even raised yours and I'm glad you did is there are times when we've been presented with SUPs and it's sort of like well you don't have any choice but to approve them because they're there in our in our books the only question is what kind of conditions you put on it but what I'm hearing you say is the condition could be you can go over 10,000 feet but only up to 12,000 feet so that could be a condition. Are there any other conditions that might be in there for example a condition of limiting deliveries to it to a particularly large you know if it's if it's 20,000 feet that we might want to delivery limit deliveries to and from to certain hours of the day would that be an acceptable SUV condition? And Anita's saying yes it would be. So and I we do see specific use permits with a wide variety of conditions and we would certainly address conditions or staff would make recommendations for conditions that would ensure that we were protecting our downtown area and not causing a problem with infrastructure or truck traffic. Then just one other thing to maybe think about is would you feel more comfortable if can you go back one slide? If there was another condition in there that that they could go over 10,000 square feet with an SUP but only up to a certain amount and then and then a SUP is not even would not even make it happen. For example between 20,000 and 10,000 an SUP and not allowed over 20,000. I still come back to if we're if the purpose of looking at other cities is to learn from other cities and I see Dallas as a rubber hits the road at 10,000 square feet maybe they know something that through experience we don't know. I would rather err on the side of caution open this up at 10, 000 square feet and if down the road we need to modify the ordinance to make it a little bigger I'd rather err on being careful than just throw the door wide open and then try to rein in through an SUP. Okay. Councilmember Hawkins. Thank you mayor. When getting an SUP in a downtown area is the similar as getting an SUP close to a neighborhood like if you send out notification and two-thirds of the area you have to have a certain vote on council and that's correct. All the same notifications. I think it it doesn't create a lot of heartburn with me because there's a lot of public involvement and if enough of the area in question there comes back and they're against it what's the super majority vote then? That's right if you have more than 51% of the required public property owners nearby for the those notifications if they oppose it then it would require a super majority vote. I definitely hear you I don't want a ton of trucks eventually just all over town because of one brewery but I think that there's enough just what am I trying to say just stops there where the public gets involved I think that it will happen on its own so I it doesn't create me a lot of heartburn the way that it's penned right now so. I do have a question. Mayor Pro Tem Gregory had mentioned that there's been some thoughts or discussion about because an SUP is allowed that somehow it's not a matter of approving it or disapproving it's just a matter of the conditions that placed on it but I guess the question is if somebody applies for an SUP does the council have the authority not withstanding any of the conditions to say we deny the SUP application? Mayor here's how that situation will work if there are no conditions which could be assessed or applied which would allow the the use to go forward then the council might look at that situation and say we believe we need to deny the SUP. Traditionally though however you will look at these situations with a presumption that the SUP is allowed and you will seek conditions to apply in order to allow the use to go forward. And just to sort of make sense it does but to drill down a little bit more into what the comment the last comment that you made that usually you said you usually look at these with a presumption I guess from statutory from state law or planning and zoning law in the cosmos wherever it resides is that is that the law that there is a presumption that in other words I mean because what I'm hearing you say is well if you don't find any conditions what you could say well we got we're gonna give you five square feet more if somebody said look I just don't agree that for me there's no conditions what anybody says that so I'm gonna vote to deny and if everybody concurred or the majority concurred or supermajority whatever is required can an SUP be denied legally even though it's allowed by our code. If there are no conditions under which this use can can be deemed appropriate by the governing body then it could be denied again though you look at these issues and I use the word presumption but we've given you a few status reports in the past on this very issue and and I'm using the word pre presumption a little literally here but we try to look at these situations and make the situation work by the application of conditions which the conditions would be as you said what the governing body either decides to or decides not to place on it and if there's no conditions then it's it's allowed to be denied. Essentially that's right and I can certainly forward those reports again if the council would like to take another look at the research that we have previously done on this topic I can I can flip that back out to you again. No that's fine I'm just trying to understand you know the mayor pro tem brought it so the question is pretty maybe I'm looking at it too simplistically we can't if we if the SUP is available it can be denied with the caveat that there's no conditions that will rehabilitate it to meet the criteria that the governing body sees fit for that particular application. To allow the use to go forward. Okay all right okay great yes. Well and just to keep the SUP on there if there's a building that's 10,005 square feet like you're saying they're gonna need an SUP and I know we're trying to follow Dallas has kind of a guideline but I just want it I mean sometimes those rules that are just hard and fast like that there needs to be a little bit of wiggle room I mean if somebody's just got a building and they just need 100 more square feet or something I just want there to be a way for them to still operate. I guess the question I have is when you put the definition up of the 10,000 feet refers to the actual size of the production facility and then a couple of other those categories and maybe I'm confusing the two but it says on-premise consumption so when I think of a micro brewery I think is what we're talking about here you got somebody who's brewing and in conjunction with that they may have a restaurant and have a bar area that they sell their their craft beer at so when you're talking about the 10,000 square feet are you talking about just that as it's defined which that's what I'm assuming the packaging bottling storage and other manufacturing related activities so any other ancillary activities such as a restaurant or a bar area that's not included in this. That is correct. Okay all right. Any other questions for this and this is an action item tonight I believe. Yes. Okay thank you. We do have lunch is ready so let let's take about a 15 minute break till about 1243 and get our lunch and then we'll see where we are on the remaining open session and we may go into closed session temporarily until into closed session at 1242 for a couple of items. We will consider the following items for closed session which will be consultation with attorneys under Texas Government Code section 551.071, deliberations regarding real property under Texas Government Code section 551.072. I'm just gonna call them all out even though we're do may come back and forth. Del iberations regarding economic development negotiations under Texas Government Code section 551.087 and deliberations regarding personnel matters under Texas Government Code section 551.074. I believe we're going to take closed session item agenda C first. All right we're going to reconvene an open session on July 21st 2015 at 1 15 it looks like. We'll go on to our work session item reports agenda item 3C which is receive report and hold discussion provide staff direction regarding promotion advertising functions currently being performed by the Convention Visitors Bureau. Thank you Mayor. I'll ask our Assistant City Manager Brian Laneley if he would present this item. Okay thank you George Mayor, members of the council, it's good to be with you this afternoon. As you can tell we have several people here from the Chamber of Commerce and I'd like to ask Chuck Carpenter to briefly introduce each of those folks. Okay thank you Chuck. Mayor and council I want to spend a few minutes today talking to you about the promotion and advertising functions that we have for the city that are currently being performed by the Convention and Visitors Bureau otherwise known as the CVB. This information was requested by the council Hotel Occupancy Tax Committee, the HOT committee, so I'm going to be going through a little bit of background information for you and then tell you a little bit more about the request and why we're here. Let me start off by just giving you some information about hotel occupancy taxes. These are a total of 13% taxes added to a room that's rented in the city, so if $100 is what you pay for a room it's 113 with the taxes. Six percent of that goes to the state and seven percent of that is levied by the city. So for next fiscal year we're anticipating about 2.1 million dollars in hotel occupancy taxes just for the city portion for the seven percent and according to state law these funds can only be spent for certain activities and there's nine separate categories and statute that allow you to spend the money to be spent on those items. We have a separate fund in the city called the Tour ist and Convention Fund which accounts for all those monies and expenses. The intent of all of that is really to put heads in beds. Some of the expenses, just a few categories, are related to Convention and Visitor Centers, advertising and promotion of the city. So those are again all things that the CVB currently performs for us. There's a maximum of 15% that can be spent, 15% of the total revenue that can be spent on public art activities. So one of the agencies that does receive funding from the city is the Greater Denton Arts Council. It's a little bit of background about the CVB and we've got a long-standing relationship as you know with the CVB and but in 2014-15 we originally allocated in this current year budget eight hundred and twenty two thousand dollars in HOP funds for the CVB and that was for the promotion and advertising services that they perform. As you may recall back in June we brought forward a discussion about opening a new Welcome and Visitor Center which they're going to be planning to open on the square. So to do that we increased the budget by 284 thousand dollars to 1.1 million dollars for 2014-15 and again that would that increase was for the visitor and welcome Center. And for 2015-16 we've been working with the hotel the hot committee, the Hotel Occupancy Tax Committee, to come up with recommendations for funding for the coming year and those are it's been recommended by that committee you'll be considering that in the budget process 1.1 million dollars also for next year which represents about 52% of hotel occupancy taxes that we hope to receive next year. Just as way a background of a little bit about comparison to how that compares the last few years over the last five years we've averaged about 46.8% going to the CVB . So a little bit higher but again some new activities that they're planning for this coming year. The remaining funds are recommended to to go to another 24 different agencies and in exhibit 3 in your backup you have a listing of those recommendations by by agency much most of them are very small in comparison to the CVB again that's about 52% of the allocation. So as we were going through this discussion with the hot committee and talking about adding money for the visitor Center and the welcome Center that's going to be on the square a discussion came up about you were having an increasing financial commitments going to the CVB and the committee asked for us to bring back a work session item to talk about that and make sure the council as a whole was still comfortable with that relationship and they also requested a discussion on some advantages and disadvantages of having those services done in-house versus contracting those out. So the purpose of this presentation the reason I'm here today is to go through that with you high-level detail and see if there's additional information the council wants or if you want to make a recommendation do something differently. Brian can I one question back on this? Yes sir. In your first little less than or greater than arrow it says also requested discussion advantages disadvantage of contracting with CVB versus providing functions during in-house operation. I'm on the hot committee so this was part of the discussion but I guess conceptually for me it wasn't so much I guess I still would think that the CVB whether it was in-house or not out -house but contract it out sorry it still would be the CVB so am I have missed something maybe you're gonna maybe you'll approach that. Well I think the conversation that we had was what's the advantage of having it as an outside entity that we have a contract with versus bring it in having in-house staff do those functions are there limitations to how you would do that both ways. Yes all right. And so I'll go through some of those with you very high level. Okay so historically we have contracted with the CVB to perform a variety of different functions I know you're all very aware of a lot of the work that they do in that area. This is to promote tourism so I want to make a comment that this is different than the economic development partnership that we have with the chamber so the CVB it's a separate type of function and for the separate mission to promote tourism in the city so that's different than the economic development type of arrangement that we have with the chamber. Per contract the CVB. Yes sir. Maybe you were about to answer my question is the contract that we have I guess with the chamber is the CVB portion is that all one same contract as we have with the economic development functions or no these are two distinct two very separate contracts. Yes sir. Okay so by contract we've tasked the CVB to do now the visitor center operations so to build that space out and operate it as we talked about the last few months also to conduct advertising targeted to reach audiences outside the Denton City limits that's important again trying to get people from outside the city to come into our city and come to the different events that we have and promotional programs to attract tourism and as I've talked to Kim Phillips and and some of her staff that really the primary function is to try to leverage the hot funds that we have going to a lot of these other activities that in programs and to get more people to come into the city. So here are some of the advantages and disadvantages that a staff we've come up with I want to emphasize that these are very high- level type of concepts this is not about the city of Denton or the or the Denton CVB just in general these types of arrangements when you look at these around the state or the country when people try to decide how they want to do this these are some comments that we kind of came up with of why people may look at it one way or the other. So what's an advantage of having a CVB contract well one of the top ones that we could think of it's not governed by the state and city procurement laws or policies and we have a lot of things that we have to do anytime we're looking to acquire goods or services we have a bid process that we have to go through it's a lengthy process as you know at times so sometimes that's looked at an advantage by not having to go through that being an outside entity. Also the staff is solely focused on the visitor industry that's what they do that's their mission is to focus on the visitor industry it's not part of another department doing other things that's what they do. Some of the disadvantages that you'll hear when people talk about this is there's a diminished level of control then so the city as the funds they're contracting with an outside entity but they're not directly controlling those activities again that's not about our CVB but just in general people look at this a little differently. So if you look at it versus on an in-house basis if you had staff here in the city that was performing these functions what are some advantages that you would have number one there's a direct accountability to the funding source so the city is receiving the funds and the city staff is in performing those functions. Utilizes existing resources and systems within the city so we have an HR department we have an accounting department legal departments so forth you're leveraging those same services to partner in with this new staff to do something like that. There's interaction and coordination with other internal departments I'm not saying that we don't do that currently but if it was part of a city department that's one of the things that you see different entities look at is what's kind of cooperation can you have . We talked about more control over activities and of course the long-term organizational stability of a city we're going to be here in some form or fashion for a long time. So the disadvantages of having as a city operation with city staff is the member the advantage I talked about for the for the CVB a disadvantage for the city is we are governed by state and city procurement policies it takes time to acquire those services and goods that's something that we spend a lot of time on going through the process. We also have adherence to city entertainment policies and one thing that we talked about with the the hot funds committee was you know typically that's some type of alcohol that may be for clients coming into the city to try to entertain those clients there's currently a prohibition on that as a policy with the city but if the council wanted to pursue something like that certainly that policy could be changed. Is that the primary it when you reference adherence to city entertainment policies that really the primary one just the purchase of alcohol and that's the one that comes to mind there may be other there may be other activities that that you may not look at the same way as a typical city operation though. I'd just like to say thank you for using the word prohib ition. Oh thanks okay no pun intended. Okay so again just a few advantages and disadvantages what we found in looking at this issue and looking at cities around the Metroplex is each type of structure either having a separate CVB with a contract with that or having these services in-house part of the city each of them could be successful in the right environment. We did look at 15 cities and there's a survey I believe it's exhibit four. Make sure I get to the right one yes exhibit four in your backup of a survey of 15 cities around the Metroplex that we took a look at. Six perform those services in-house and nine utilize a contract with a Commission and Visitors Bureau separately. I did want to point out that one of those cities Frisco I've since learned since I put that together that they do have more staff than we had indicated in internal to their operation so I want to make sure I pointed that out to you. So that's my presentation we're really just bringing this item forward to the council for discussion to see if you need more information looking at this issue or if you want to take a step towards a different direction we'd certainly like to have that discussion with you and be happy to provide you any information that you need. Yes Kevin I'm sorry. For the I don't even know who's on the hot fund committee. Are you able to give a little bit more background as to the impetus for this discussion was there something else that y'all were seeing as advantages or disadvantages that wanted to have the conversation? Yeah no and I also wanted to open this up to our guests as well but with Council's indulgence if there's some comments that they would like to make in regard to this. I think it was just raised in the sense of as we looked at the Visitors Bureau and the the money I think it was the somewhat was the level of funding and I know since I've been on council that's just the way it's been and I don't recall a discussion of pros or cons it wasn't precipitated by some negative event or anything like that it was more informational to try to understand what what do we have going here and and to understand what the advantages and disadvantages are so no it wasn't really is more informational and especially since we had two new council members to just sort of open up the discussion to see you know what are our thoughts on it and then also to provide some opportunity for some input from the other from the chamber as well. If I could add I think what we were talking about at the time was the downtown visitor center and the resurgence of the Convention Center project with you know the conversation was basically let's don't confuse the visitor center with the need to have a presence at a convention center so you would likely have the visitor center being operated by the CBB and also have a presence at the Convention Center where that project to happen we'd want to have offices there and staff there and so on so conversation was okay as this grows right because your need for staff is going to continue to grow does it make sense if you're looking at a staff now a managed staff does it make sense to continue to do what we've always done or should we look at it differently I think our answer was that we don't know what do other cities do we should have a conversation about that given that what we're likely going to see is our is our CBB staff grow significantly over a short period of time where it's been you know Kim and one or two for a very long time right so that's where the conversation was going yeah and I appreciate that you were right about the kind of what led it re-insurgence of the of the potential for the Convention Center and I think it's for I can only speak for myself can't speak for the other members I think it's also just to make sure that I have up to date information on the stewardship of funds I mean it's a what's fascinating honestly when I look at this list how many of these have most of if not all of their hot funds you know they don't there's not that many other kind of functions or festivals or things that they're they're funding that most of them go to so I think it was just some information of hey that budget is going to start really getting big and just as a good steward let 's make sure we we reaffirm the direction if they're whatever direction we want to move given the things that are happening yes well and personally I just wanted to understand the structure a little bit more they're getting fifty fifty two percent of the budget to just kind of being still feeling a little bit new at it just wanted to understand the contract and what is I didn't even really know at the beginning that the city could have the contract too so that's all this conversation yeah discussion council would you mind if anybody want to step up and comment or no okay sure yeah come on up yeah if you wouldn't mind coming to the microphone my name is Bob Moses I'm the chairman of the advisory board for the CVB and I've been a businessman here in Denton for 17 years since 1998 I 've worked with the CVB all of those years all 17 and with Kim Phillips during almost our whole time and with Julie Glover in the economics development part of the city also during that time primarily on the Main Street programs and my thought is that this has worked so smooth and it's gone so well that as a just as an engineer as a person everyone here is a word if it's not broken don't go out and fix it and so I would just ask you to think really carefully before you make a change because this is running really smooth you know if you see some problems with it it should be addressed but don't do something that could really be injurious here at a time when we're doing some real critical things with CVB with the Chamber of Commerce and and with Main Street thank you all right thank you Councilmember Johnson oh I'm sorry yes well just to add to that Bob I agree with you and I'm proud of what you guys are doing I mean it 's not really a question more I just wanted to add on to you know I'm I'm not looking to possibly change anything I just wanted to understand a little more and you guys do a great job I don't do anything well I would agree with that but thank you know I just when I heard the subject come up sure I thought my goodness and I might attempt was until no one was going to speak is I was going to certainly wait until everyone else had shot their gun and then I'd see what I wanted to say but being the first one that comes up and talks I just think it runs real smooth think real hard before you change it I think Chuck did you want to you want to comment you want to hear the questions first okay well Greg did you did you have a cuz I and then we'll come to you so the one thing that I find interesting on this chart looking at the cities because you kind of have a mixed bag I'm not sure about the numbers because the many of them contribute more to their CVB than what they say they took in so maybe that 's just a spreadsheet thing what's interesting though is it seems by and large if they have a convention center it is run by city employees so I mean that obviously the we've got a plan for the visitor center and I think it 's a good plan and you're not talking about a lot of staff requirement there but I do think we need to think through those structurally because I agree that the CVB I mean the CVB is Kim she has helped but she's the rock star that plays music all day and makes it makes everything happen there the the thing I think we need to think about is just in terms of similar conversation that we've had in the past about economic development right just okay I've got a bucket of money I'm gonna take part of this bucket of money and I'm gonna hand it over here and I'm gonna keep doing some functions internally and I'm gonna have some functions done externally the only thing I've ever heard about the reason that the CVB was contracted out when I asked the question before the answer I always got from it and from the city standpoint was you know well there's things that they can do that we can't and I would say like what well they we can't buy alcohol I kept hearing that and I thought I mean I know we can't buy alcohol but if that's not really a good reason to outsource something if that's the if that's the fix then fix that what I want to make sure of is just in terms of mayor what you said about goods towards of the money I think that the CVB works very hard to manage the money well and watch every dollar having been on the chamber ward I know that for a fact and listening to the presentations but as we grow I think what we want to make sure we don't do is have duplication of effort a lot duplication of funding right so if if we're going to grow the staff of the CVB and we're gonna have to with the visitor center and then with a with potentially a convention center I want to make sure that we don't put ourselves in a situation where we go well we're outsourcing this but there's some things we're gonna want city employees to do and therefore we end up with some duplication of effort and therefore a waste of dollars so if it's if there's going to be functions that need to be city employees like many of these other cities do in their convention centers then I just want to make sure we have a very clearly defined roles and responsibilities what's outsourced what's not outsourced you know and that in that budget being controlled very clearly with well-defined roles and responsibilities I don't think it makes sense to have an outsourced contract because of you can't buy somebody alcohol if that's really the reason that 's not really that's too complicated in my opinion but we've done it this way for a long time and it seems to have worked I think a lot of that has to do with the people that we have and so I don't whatever if we did anything different we would need to make sure in my opinion that those people are the part of the are still the people okay I'm gonna go Kevin mayor pro-tem and then is that okay yeah so I guess I have some questions on this the staffing questions that are coming up that seem to be primarily driving it on some level because as we discuss the new downtown visitor center that we all were giving positive direction for I don't recall part of that discussion a need for additional staff members in order to to staff that although the discussion here seems to be that they do need additional staff members was that part of that part of that funding discussion yes yes there were additional staff yes part of that three yes okay thank you thank you for clarifying that for and so then the discussion of a possible convention center as it relates to staffing the discussion we've had was that there's gonna be a small footprint connection over there enough to trigger certain things we want to trigger as part of that deal but is that when we're talking about anticipated staff from CVB has that been identified as to what that is or even where the resources for that would come from in other words I guess my question is are we saying with the additional staffing it's going to need additional funding that's going to have to come from something outside of hot funds and therefore in terms of anticipation of something like some additional general fund monies it made more sense to look at this relationship is that kind of part of this context or is the idea that if there's additional staffing in place for a hypothetical new convention center that that would that itself also be covered by hot funds well I could say in our hot funds committee conversations certainly I don't believe there was any conversation assuming that we would have to tap general fund money force for CVB because as if the convention center happened there would be additional hot fund monies you would believe as a result of that hotel but also just an uptick in the other so you should see a continued growth trend there that the the conversation wasn't hey guys you think we should move this from the CV from the chamber back to the city or the conversation was really very much hey we ought to have a conversation about this at the whole council just so everybody understands okay you know there's growth happening there's we ought to have this conversation about the the alcohol thing as a part of it if that's really a blocker because that should it that could impact other recruiting capabilities and so on so this was very much a well there's only three of us and for me it was my first hot funds meeting and I think what the mayor said as well you know we ought to at least have a conversation with the whole council just so that everybody has a chance to give input on we got new things happening you got a you got a visitor center you got a potential convention center this fund is going to continue to grow how do other cities spend their money that sort of thing I just think I think there's a lot of innovative things coming out of the CBB and there's a nimbleness that happens when you're not under a larger bureaucrat nothing against the city but when you get underneath a larger context you can't make those independent autonomous decisions that you and I would want to make if we're in charge of something that is rapidly changing in scope and we want them to be that way as new things come online to have that creativity the innovative spirit that they have so I think that's got to be part of the conversation as well I think it's a great conversation and mr. Moses I like your analogy of the engineering aspect of it and if it's not broken we shouldn't fix it but we ought to always look at our infrastructure from time to time and investigate it to make sure that it's still sound I think it I think this particular relationship is very sound and because of the nimbleness factor because of the quality of the staff because of the success I mean it's not only that our CBB is not only not broken it's great it 's not good it's great they do great things the staff is I think particularly sensitive to the relationship between the chamber and the city and in the entire community and and I think that's important and so I think it's a good conversation for for purposes of stewardship for purposes of making sure that this is a structurally sound arrangement and I'm pretty satisfied that it is that's my was I think to Greg's point you have two different type of convention centers and the one on statistics that you're looking at our city-owned convention centers that are going to require much bigger city staff presence this if it gets approved will be a privately owned convention center will have a footprint because it's a natural marriage between the two but we're not running it it's a private it's a private entity and I so I think the statistics that we're looking at in terms of staffing up for a convention center I think those are city run facilities because those are out there and of course they have just a greater need for city staff so I think that explains and also what we decide now is important concrete things change cities grow needs change so you know what we decide right now may be very different than what we need in five years or ten years so I think you know as you go forward you're always just looking to do it better because Denton is certainly on that growth projectory I agree 100% well aware that it's privately owned yeah thank you check thank you mayor and I realize the last thing you want at this point in the agendas for the chamber guy to stand up and start talking and I'll try to be sensitive to that first of all let me kind of take indulge me here December 40 years ago 1975 the council under mayor Tom Jester approved the ordinance that set up the hotel like to see tax committee I graduated from college in December of 1975 and my first job was to set up the Denton Convention Vistra Bureau as part of the Denton chamber so I came to work here in February of 1976 and so it's hard for me to pull emotion out of this I would also tell you in looking at the survey that you did and it was very well done and I appreciate that our setup is now rare at the time it was very normal it was very efficient so I'm not here to debate it as a matter of fact when I go to my professional organizations I use our example of doesn't work everywhere and I would be the first to confess that and I think you are wise and I commend you and I would like to be a part of every time you want to review how it's done because my heart is with it and I want the best for it I would also tell you that Greg was talking about well it's the alcohol cells that you got to deal with I would also tell you that even though the dynamics of convention V istra bureaus have changed come stand in our door a couple hours every day and listen to the requests we get on the phone and on the email we're still going to be inquired upon as if we are the visitor response and it's probably will always be that way but we see some things that will help us expand the services by having the off-site visitor center I would tell you we make a significant amount of time in every board of directors meeting for reports that Kim does on the convention Vistra bureau sometimes the directors gloss over when she gets into some of the detail and Greg remember those day but we feel like yes we recognize that this is a significant amount of money that you have transferred fiduciary responsibility over with so I would tell you I got six people sitting here today that sit here and listen to those report every month but they feel pretty strong about us and the role we have so I want to thank you for you could be someplace else and I realize it but they believe very much in the program we will always be the front door to the community and so with that comes so having this contract allows us to make Denton a better place to have a positive sign I would also tell you we participate we provide an internal audit of our own and we do a monthly audit review with your staff and I can tell you it is very thorough and if there is any question we are following your rules as far as it goes so I would also tell you the term future staffing comes up about every other conversation I have with Kim where our building was built in 1975 and so we are looking for different ways and there will be some folks satellite it out so you've been very kind to listen to me but this is an emotional thing if you're interested and you want to pursue this further for other cities chambers that have our model would be new Braunfels and at one time the Braunfels actually managed the chamber managed their convention center can't say that long view Tyler and Abilene Abilene's private Eileen and long viewer pretty much our model almost to a tee if you wanted to explore them and see how they work but I'm going to tell you it this model is unique here part of it is the dynamics with having Kim and me so I would be happy to respond any questions you might have. Well just more a comment I just feel like we kind of we hot we're hiring a company that specializes in doing something well and you guys do it very well and I hope that it continues in the way that it does if this was beneficial for me to even hear some of these things I didn't know that you had been here since 1975 I was one anyway for anything I've learned it was that so I think that whole question statement was out of order I really do appreciate you and I just wanted to just understand it more that's all so Kim if it's your pleasure I'd like she's the I just check off on the bill sure I'd like to ask absolutely microphone yeah even just to say hi that's all right that's okay they glaze over because I don't stop no I just I feel like Chuck and your conversation really really covered everything I don't have anything else to add unless someone has a question directly for me but Greg Kim did you ever feel that I glazed over and didn't pay attention your presentations I 'll say no question I'm saying no thanks you're welcome that's what I work by smart I wanted to get your feedback on the comments I made about so you guys sell the city as original and independent and you know I have this sense about you and your staff in the same sense original and independent thank you we've had the privilege of working with your team on a number of issues in town and innovative projects that frankly it was easy to work with y'all because you kind of had that sense of freedom to be able to sense here's a trend going and we're gonna jump on this quickly and we're able to do that we don 't have to go to five different levels in order to kind of get permission to do what we want to do that aspect of what you do can you talk to that a little bit and how that might be different if you're within a city structure versus the structure you have now well I think you're you're nailing it when you talk about being able to respond quickly I mean in the world that we live in now and particularly when your world is marketing being able to jump on quickly is a key here's a good example I don't know if any of you ever get an opportunity to read my column in the in the record Chron icle each week but this past week I talked about a program called at Denton food tours this is this real organic thing that was discovered by a couple of our communication staff member who staff members who do our social media who make us look like rock stars out there in the social media world they discovered a new social media tool started playing around with it and the next thing you know they're making these little mini movies when they go out to lunch in different restaurants around town and now all over the United States various in various places that promote tourism or food tours or foodie interest type places where people gather to learn new information on internet forums are following us out of nowhere just because they're like wow this is really cool having the freedom to be able to discover and embrace and try things out without the red tape if you will makes it makes makes us much more successful with that fluidity I believe just don't get a legal stamp I want to quantify that I want to quantify it though and say Chuck Chuck mentioned very briefly the fact that we do have a very strong accountability program here unlike any other bureau that I'm aware of and the fact that on his staff Brian Langley has Randy Klingle whose title is hotel tax auditor she's auditing our our work literally on a monthly basis and to the point that if I went out and bought 10,000 pencils she would question what we need 10,000 pencils for and and I'm I mean I'm very grateful for that kind of an oversight it I think it makes the communication between the city and the chamber very very smooth and without question it keeps all of us and if there's a question if we are going to jump on a new trend and there's anything in my mind that thinks wow you know if we do this and we spend a hundred thousand dollars of unbudgeted money I better I better run this up somebody's flagpole first Randy's my go-to that's the first person I'm gonna go to to say is this is that would this fly we don't take chances with that money we consider ourselves stewards of public money and accountable to you ultimately and so while we while we are able to take risk if you will we're not taking stewardship risks if that makes sense the freedom that that we have within our budget to move quickly among project ideas is where that great value is the second piece of that answer has to do with co-op co-op monies we do a lot of cooperative activity within the community and being able to to be outside of the government structure allows us to have different accounts where private money can be matched to our money in order to make everybody's money go further I can I could sit here and give you many many examples I know there are some in your packets one that's revving up right now is the Mean Green game day campaign for 2015 that's a lot of people's private money we had 22 private business partners last year plus DCTA plus UNT Mean Green Athletics this year that number will be significantly higher as we ramp up the what that campaign does and how it benefits all the partners involved that would be almost impossible to run inside of of the government structure so that would be my answer to Kevin's question any other questions and I think what's important about what you're mentioning it is you have staff oversight of those public funds you have three members of our council on the Hot Fund Committee that that also monitors that you have two council members that serve on the CBB advisory board so so there is a there's a lot of opportunity for for interaction for you to be very much aware of what what what council concerns are as elected officials responsible for those public funds exactly and and and the the oversight I think is such that that the citizens can be very comfortable that the hotel occupancy tax funds are going for exactly what they were intended to go for and being used in a very responsible and effective way our finance director at the chamber and me are the two key people but we interact with Brian and his financial staff regularly for our monthly audits as well as for budget preparations so well and and I think I'm not gonna say I claimed this meeting but I think I brought the issue up originally and I have to say I I'm sorry if I created a bunch of tension with y'all because I know it did I mean let's just let's just say I know there was looks of what and in no way was I trying to say to indict or to try to but as a good as as the mayor and as a steward of the financial it's like it's always good to go back and review programs and to hear because I don't remember the last time we heard a report on what the CVB is doing and and how it's effectively working so apologize for all the probably behind-the-scenes name-calling and all those kind of things that might probably took place but this is a good conversation and and I think it reaffirms the direction that we are understanding that you know things always change people change but that was really my purpose for this was just to have this conversation and and I really do appreciate everybody's input because I think it's helpful to be able to understand that because you are a major contributor to what the city is trying to do and it's always good to hear what's going on absolutely and I would like to volunteer in order to continue the the awareness for you as council members I would be and would love the opportunity actually to share my monthly reports that I give to Brian staff with you and as individual council members I also give that to our board members and they get inundated with this stuff you probably don't want it every month for me to come talk to you but I could give it to you in writing every month and even quarterly maybe to be able to come and just kind of give you a briefing in your council meeting as to here's what's going on I mean I don't necessarily I mean I don't necessarily need the monthly the because I think there seems to be a level of awareness and just looking that but as far as coming and just sharing on a regular basis about what's happening what are some of the trends because I went with you guys to South by Southwest yes sir and what a wonderful event that was so I think those things are good to keep us informed of what's happening because we we want to know and and it gets us excited because that was a wonderful I mean I had a blast and I think say the craft beer the the free craft beer which the line truly did form it did and we are still still seeing response from our from our presence there yep no it's fantastic so I appreciate you guys coming and sharing and is there any other questions from the council in this regard any other only question was the only name calling her everybody all the names were about the mayor right no I'm just teasing I'm gonna just not even answer but thank you and thank you thank you all very much for coming and sharing you bet that's it okay all right I'm gonna presume the directions we just keep the status quo that correct yes all right fantastic thank you Brian you bet thank you appreciate it well we might take on casual council meeting Fridays or Tuesdays I think that concludes our open session and so we now can re-adjourn into closed session and I'll be calling do I need to recall those captions again okay all right I sure will okay so we've got how many we've got left E F and G okay I'll just call those we will now convene in closed session at 158 we will consider the following items consultation with attorneys under text government code five five one point oh seven one deliberations regarding economic development negotiations deliberations deliberations regarding rip personal personnel matters under text government code section five five one point oh seven four and consultation with attorneys under text government code section five five one point oh seven one okay those any of more of those I need to okay all right you well good evening I want to welcome everybody to this June July 21st 2015 didn't City Council meeting it's 633 and if you'll join me and stand as we pledge leads to the US and the Texas flag for our first engine item a couple proclamations down okay the first one we have is the Parks Foundation presentation of a donation from the Denton area teachers credit union to the city of Denton's for the Eureka to project so come on down and introduce yourself and tell us what we've got good to see you down I'm Dale Kimball CEO of that queue this is Glenn McKenzie president of that cute and it's our pleasure to come before you today in the foundation and to present you a check for $100,000 for Eureka to program well I'll tell you words really cannot express the generosity of that queue not just in this contribution but what you've given to this community for the many many decades that you have been here and I just really want to thank you personally and from the bottom of my heart for what you do for our community and how you support our community and this is just another evidence of that so thank you very much mr. Kimball I appreciate that so much thank you yes again another round of applause y'all want to say a few words yes yes yes okay I'm Kristy Maloof and I'm the chair of Eureka - and I too wanted to say thank you to DAC you for their generous donation and for all that they have given to the community anytime you go anywhere you see that queue so once again thank you and we're happy to have you aboard so thank you guys with those who are with that cute please stand that are here in the end again if you would just yes so thank you all very much thank you very much for your generous contribution thank you Dale thank you so much thank you so much okay the DRC wants whoever wants to be in the picture come on down yeah what a great day hey how are you thank you all very much what a wonderful gift what a wonderful gift well out there you the next one we have is my pleasure we've got a proclamation resolution actually which is gonna require vote from the City Council for Linda Holly Linda if you could come up and if you would if you would join yeah yes come on before I read it and I'm gonna give each council member an opportunity to share a few words okay and I'll get the last word or the first word or both so you told me how long you've been with the city and I'm sure we're gonna but if you could just tell us a little bit about I've been with the city for 26 years started out in legal it's been about 12 years in planning and I've been over here about almost 12 years Wow and I will tell you I've been on council six years so Linda was the one who helped me but I will tell you being mayor for a year now year and a half this woman here has kept me where I need to be on time and when she calls me when I see her number pop up on my phone I automatically panic because I think oh I have not gotten somewhere so it's it's with great pleasure but also sadness that we we read this resolution and you're going on to bigger and better things but we will surely miss you and look forward to the other comments that are comes if you'll let me read this I'm gonna read the resolution last I'm gonna read the plaque first the city of Denton expresses its gratitude to you Linda Holly for dedicated and professional service to the citizens of Denton from July 1989 through July 2015 as an employee of the city of Denton serving previously in the legal and planning departments Wow that's that's heavy and the last 14 years in the city manager's office that's even heavier your commitment professionalism and leadership have been a tremendous asset to the organization for 26 years and we will miss you greatly congratulations on your retirement and we wish you the best in your future endeavors so here's this and if you would enter do sure this is my husband Don we've been together for 48 years so I guess he 'll stay with me that's worth all right and I'll now read the resolution resolution and appreciation of Linda Holly whereas on July 31st 2015 Linda Holly will retire after working for the city of Denton since July the third of 1989 and whereas Linda has worked diligently to provide excellent service to the citizens of Denton the city of Denton has been fortunate to have her dedicated and talented service and wishes to recognize that service whereas during the past 26 years Linda has represented our city in an exemplary fashion serving in the legal department planning and development department and most recently in the city manager's office and whereas during Linda's tenure in the city manager's office she worked closely with and provided outstanding support to the city manager executive staff mayor and council members and whereas Linda has applied her numerous talents and skills toward the advancement of the city and has earned the full respect of her fellow employees colleagues and citizens of Denton now therefore the council of the city of Denton hereby resolves the sincere and warm appreciation of Linda Holly felt by the employees and citizens of the city of Denton is hereby formally conveyed to her in a permanent manner by recording this resolution upon the official minutes of the City Council of the City of Denton Texas and forwarding to Linda a true copy thereof as a token of our appreciation pass and approve well we got to pass it first here yes I move approval we have a motion do we have a second we have a second second all in favor say aye by raising your right hand passes unanimously there you go thank you very much thank you you will be sorely missed oh oh okay now what I'm looking for though in about the next year or so as y'all are out traveling and you have all this spare time I 'll put these over here is I want to sit read the memoirs of your experience in the the city manager's office with all these council members and all these different mayors and and all the different personalities so I wanted to give my colleagues an opportunity and staff did if you have a few words to shout them out I want to thank you I've only been on council two months you win an election and you wake up the next day and say now what and you were the one who shepherded me through each and every step of everything I had to follow everything that I had to take care of you were so calm in the middle of a tornado so I just want to say thank you it was a joy to work with you good luck in your retirement and God bless thank you for your service to the city of Denton and I agree you are a herder of cats to keep us all in line and I have similar response when I see your name come up on the phone you're wondering what's our I'm being summoned to George's office or something like that but you know one thing that's always been fascinating to me and I know modern technology allows this sort of thing but you're like the only one that does it anytime I call you your answer is well hello Kevin or something like that it's like how does she know it's me on the other end of the line but anyways thank you for your service you're always so kind and accommodating and you've done wonders for the city so I wish you the best well you remind me of that cool classy lady outside the principal's office that I got to try to butter up while I was sitting out there waiting for my punishment and and it's well yeah sometimes I get called the principal's office but I want to thank you so much just for your you always smile you always have a kind word and and you've just been so helpful to a knucklehead that can't seem to get the calendar to sink or whatever it is and hey did you remember you have this appointment and so I just want to thank you for all the because it's all the little things that you do with so much kindness that that help all of us so we'll miss you for that for sure thanks well I didn't think of it as hurting cats I thought more of it is hurting chickens with big egos and you did it and you've done it with grace and with boys and and I appreciate it very much and and I recognize some of those little laughs that you like you poor pitiful thing but you said it you would laugh in such a kind way even though I knew what you meant it didn't even hurt my feelings all right I'll try to follow that I got to admit when I first met you I was a little intimidated but I think I was intimidated by everything but you definitely showed me around you led the way I'm a little worried that the city of Denton as we know it is about to unravel in about a week but anyway it was great getting knowing you last two weeks I'm excited to work with Robin too and I just think I'm curious if Greg Johnson is gonna now try to copy Robin's hair or I don't know anyway but it was very nice to you you must have gotten married when you were 10 years old I have no idea you junior high that's right so thank you well mayor if I could and I had a few an opportunity this morning to make some comments and tell Linda how much I'm gonna miss her she's been in the city manager's office and sat right outside my office for eight years and I've been doing this and working in city government for over 40 years and she is an incredible asset to this city I and I thank Linda very much for what she has done she's meant a lot to us and I know she's meant a lot to the City Council I Linda was actually planning to retire and I told the staff that this morning last December and I begged that she not do that and she finally agreed to stay for six months and I know it was because it improved her retirement benefit not because I asked her to but I claim that anyway and Linda I sincerely wish you the best you've been just an incredible person to work with over the last eight years and I personally thank you for that thank you mr. mayor I think it should be noted that Linda got her really good grounding in city government in the legal department and Linda and I had a conversation and she came to know that I love to go to Santa Fe New Mexico so I have provided her with some information on restaurants and great things to see in Santa Fe so bon voyage and thank you for everything you 've done she knows thank you Linda it's been wonderful working with you and I hope we see you around it be good you guys have fun you've earned it you deserved it especially putting up with four mayors countless number of council members and you've just done an excellent job and I will I will surely miss you you betcha now she has to stay for the entire meeting the Denton City Council has adopted rules of procedure including a code of conduct which applies to citizens as well as council members these rules were enacted to promote an orderly process and to preserve decor um here is a brief review of the rules that apply to citizens reports citizens will have four minutes to give a report there will be an electronic beep when time has expired if the remarks are not concluded by that time the citizen will be asked to stop speaking if the citizen does not cease and a second request is made the mayor will request to have the citizen removed from the council chambers citizens are asked to not approach the dais if a citizen has papers or other materials to hand out to the council please let the city secretary know and she will have a staff member distribute the materials to the council the attorney general has ruled that council members may listen to citizens speak and may ask questions of citizens for clarification of the issue council members will not engage citizens in discussion of a topic because to do so could potentially be a violation of the open meetings act when speaking to the council citizens are to direct all remarks and questions to the council as a whole and not to any individual member please refrain from making abusive personal impertinent profane or slanderous remarks anyone who violates this rule will immediately be removed from the council chambers citizens adherence to these rules will help make an effective presentation and will preserve the order and decorum of our proceedings copies of the rules of procedure are available from the city secretary I think that's my cue all right we are on agenda item 3 which is citizens reports and on the original agenda posting we had three individuals who were listed to speak and then we had four that were listed at the end of the meeting but the council decided during the work session that we wanted to give those at the end of the the meeting based upon our rules of procedure three are allowed at the front end that they were allowed to speak it at this particular time as well so if you're here in the audience and I call your name please feel free to come down and and your time will begin well we're going to call the first speaker under citizens reports will be Monica Jones and if miss Jones is here if you'll come down and state your name and address and your time will begin Monica Jones all right don't see her here so we'll move on to Jerry Yenson if you'll come down and state your name and address and your time will begin my name is Jerry Yenson landmark surveyors 42 38 I 35 North I prepared a written statement and afraid I'm gonna run out of time so I 'm gonna try to run this through recently we prepared a survey of 31 acres at the northeast corner Windsor Drive and Interstate 35 in 2003 we had prepared the Roland Bay and gas real flat which is a 75 acre site on this very location the 31 Westman 31 acres of this was purchased by Gloria Zion some years back and it's under contract now so we prepared a survey for that transaction when we prepared the gas roll flat in 2003 there was language that specifically stated neither the present agricultural use nor any future residential or commercial uses of Roland Payne et al will be impaired by the proposed gas well development due to the only two drill sites that are on the Roland Payne gas well plan that statement indicates that this property can be further developed however somewhere along the line the city has taken an interpretation of a reverse setback that is the distance from which one can build improvements to the proximity of the gas wells that interpretation currently includes in this case the entire 75 acre site plus a 250 acre site around the perimeter of that 75 acres clearly that impairs the development of the property we held a meeting with city staff regarding platting of the 31 acre tract and they required us to prepare an amended gas roll flat which would limit the gas roll sites to two and a half acres each against our better judgment we agreed to do that and we felt we had no choice so we set out to amend the gas roll flat we sent a proposed site plan to Vantage Energy who was the operator weeks have gone by we can't get any response out of them the burden has been placed on us to resolve a problem on a gas roll that's not even on the 31 acres a little east of that we started to plant a 10 acre site on Windsor Drive that belongs a gl acial lahermosa this is the west half of a 20 acre gas roll flat which was planted in 2006 the actual gas well sits on the east 10 acres and in this case the church owns the west 10 acres and the West 10 acres was never even signed the plat was never even signed by the owner of the West 10 acres this is a property that was planted possibly without their knowledge once again the reverse set back now interpreted is in the entire 20 acres plus a 250 foot buffer around that 20 acres and in this case that would take in approximately 24 homes in Westgate Hills to the west and approximately 15 homes in Windsor Drive once again the language states that neither agricultural nor commercial nor residential development will be impaired by this gas roll plat however unless that gas roll plat is amended according to city staff this property is pretty much good for mowing grass and paying taxes and trying to avoid getting fined by the city for letting the grass get too tall I'm aware that there's a public hearing and some discussion about an ordinance to try to fix this problem and I just want to point out this interpretation didn't come by way of an ordinance it just popped up somewhere so I'm not sure that should take an ordinance to actually undo this interpretation however if there is going to be an ordinance I would strongly urge the city to stick with the original interpretation of a reverse setback to be 250 feet from a wellhead 250 foot radius from a wellhead takes up four and a half acres 250 feet from a typical gas well site takes up 12 acres I've heard some talk that possibly 600 feet could be an issue 600 feet from the center of a gas well pad is 42 acres that interpretation would actually double the size of this 10 acre or 20 acre gas roll plan thank you thank you and if you I guess if he wanted to distribute copies to the council we would we would certainly I mean I would appreciate having a copy of your statements if you if you so desire if not I only brought one I could email it though that'd be great thank you you bet all right the next speaker will be Luisa Feliz translating for is it Bolliver Diaz oh I'm sorry yes just state your name and address and your time will begin Luisa Feliz 3500 East McKinney Street apartment 4204 Denton Texas 76209 good evening my name is Luisa secretary of senior pastor believe ideas from the Mosa Church Inc and I will be translating on his behalf last year we acquired 10 acres of land and we exhausted our resources trying to proceed forward as well as attending several meetings with the objective of obtaining our building permit to start construction so we can build our new church unfortunately every time we do something that we have been asked to do they try to then change it and it makes it extremely difficult to be able to go forward the meeting we had we were promised that no things would change as far as the building permit is concerned if we obtained a written consent from the gas well operator we would then be able to acquire our much-needed building permit we would also like to ask you all to consider the following the city has required us to pay taxes as well as the upkeep of the property now we would like to ask you all is it fair that we have to fulfill these duties while we cannot make use of the land we are here present to expose our concerns as far as our desires and urgency to start our building our new church which we can develop our projects that are religious as well as beneficial to our community amongst those projects we have youth that rescue volunteers for the community a theological Institute a chaplain program and our installation of our radio station 102.5 in our digital TV station we would appreciate it if you could grant us our petition due to the fact that we have the ideal property to build and establish our church projects we would also like to make it clear that last year the gas well company made it public knowledge and news that it was safe for the community thank you all for your time respectfully yours senior pastor Bolivar Diaz thank you we have a question yes can you describe exactly where the site is please the 10 acres that's 2500 Windsor Wayne is this related to the the first speaker as far as okay all right so we're talking about the same place yes okay all right and we have copies I don't know if you would like sure if you just leave them with the city secretary then okay she'll distribute them thank you any other questions thank you all right thank you all right our next speaker will be mr. Willie Hudson please state your name and address and your time will begin well I want to get something on the screen first I don't want to take it in my time to do that so if you could just do that and then I'll state my name I have some the actions I'm gonna make an airplane out of it in my name is Willie Hudson I live at 623 Newton mayor and council members so I'm here to report on some or something to you about some information after almost being shot yesterday it's giving me a new perspective that perspective is I noticed that the two the first two presenters are actually talking about what I want to talk about I don't know whose responsibility is to get the administration on board with the citizens as you heard in those those last two reports they're frustrated because someone in administration and the reason I'm not looking at you is because you say I can't mention someone's name that's the problem with this so I'm gonna look at this screen and just say somebody who there is in charge of the administration of this city is the problem I think but you're the City Council you're not supposed to micromanage I know that but we're frustrated we don't citizens we don't know what to do we don't know who to call because we asked people in the administration what to do and they change the situation I wish I don't think French and what he went through was all that bad I would just like the same thing done to me change the rules I don't want to be told to do something that's in the rule book change it for me why don't we do that for everybody just change the rules or how about this do what it says just before every rule that they've they put in there in the book the rules should help the citizens it shouldn't be anything that really do administration that would hurt the citizens why don't we do that it's in every one of them here's mine now as I said I'm gonna take a lot of months to get my points out because you don't give me before minutes the first the next on that report that you read about the how they've rated this city well as a reason the reason is a head administrator that's the reason I think anyway here's my latest issue code enforcement my goodness I have a business one thing I'm finding there are two rules there's a rule for big business and then there's a rule for small business here in this city big business get a lot of accommodations little business does not just like mr. acres at acres records system on record shop Cliff reading at the sand shop David Zoltan as a veteran veterinarian here we don't get the same treatment here's a good example my shop is located at the corner of Bonnie Bray and oak people bring stuff over there and they drop it they leave it I call a city world don't you shouldn't you come get that it's not mine they say no it's my responsibility code enforcement goes and take pitch you can go to my place there is a mattress over there right now to someone dropped off a mattress and a box spring before I can even get to it code enforcement because someone keeps complaining and I know who that is there they come and take a picture and they send me this letter Lord help me and take me home soon here's the patent letter they send every time this checkoff right here outside stories that means something's outside and it shouldn't be there well I had to get an attorney the last time but I'm appealing to you this time help us do something with this administration so that we can get some help the last two spoke speakers this said the same thing to me I don't know what you're supposed to do but do something so that we can stay in business thank you thank you mr. husband our next speaker will be Kent Key regarding gas well plats council I'm Kent Key I'm a builder and developer I think I 'm supposed to tell you my address 3100 Triple Crown in Denton I've been here for 55 years and I've been an advocate of the city I love the city of Denton had plenty of opportunities to move outside the city of Denton and will not and I'm not going to leave the city of Denton I own land in in town I own property I develop property I've developed a lot of subdivisions in the city and we've got a few problems that we need a little help with and I think it needs to come from it has to come from you guys we need with the gas well plats I mean we know it was all in a turmoil big problem but it's so that parts over with we need to address the gas well plats now we need large homes in the city of Denton we all want houses that bring in the revenue to the city of Denton land is a short supply in Denton that is developable land we have a lot of land a lot of it's not developable for two reasons one is now the gas well plats and them stretching beyond what we think is reasonable and the flood plain issues which the city of Denton has enacted which struts way beyond what FEMA the federal government asked for we stretch our boundaries even further for some reason that has not been able to be explained to me we've been I've been told several times that was for an insurance reduction and for the citizens it was a benefit for the citizens but when I investigated that it's actually like a 10% reduction for the citizens and every single insurance company gives a 20% reduction right off the bat so it's it's a false nomer to think that we actually got some benefit out of that so we're stretching beyond our means and eating up our valuable property the city's property that's taxable those are all taxable and properties and tax able pieces of property for us to develop them and to develop what we're looking for which are the bigger houses that pay the bigger taxes I've got almost 40 acres over next to Forest Ridge I really want to develop right now the gas well plat that's adjacent to it is gonna impede that greatly in fact it's gonna impede it so far I'm not gonna develop it period I'll just wait until we do wise up one day and decide that we want to change that but there's no reason to develop it and lose half of my land over there that needs to be developed and we'll be able to be developed at some point so we need your help to understand the problems of the gas well plats I was asked at a meeting not long ago by staff well why did you plait the 40 why did you pl ait this whole thing in 40 acres and hurt yourself like this well that was the city's code at that point when the when the gas well got platted on another man 's property it's not even on my property he platted up to my property and then part of our property to make it a contiguous 40 acres that was the ordinance at that time well now then we're trying to enforce a new ordinance that stretches way beyond the bounds of where it needs to be I think the gas wells should be measured from the wellhead that's the danger point most of the time when you have a blowout I believe that normally comes from the well head well that needs to be measured from the wellhead and I don't I'm not that guy I can't tell you what the distance is but we can't stretch from the farthest bounds of the property which could be thousands of feet away and say oh well that's platted over there so we can't we can't develop that those are the things that we need help from council with council needs to rethink that move that ordinance forward so we can develop the land that we have and at the right time now's the time to be developing people are looking for houses and looking for new solutions so I would ask you guys to help with that and help with the floodplain issues that we have. Thank you Mr. Key we do have a question. Thanks Mayor. Mr. Key the you were talking about the say the 40 acre tract for example mm-hmm so as somebody that has owned land and developed land and residential subdiv isions in terms of what the what you feel like your responsibility is as a builder who would build a house and sell a house to someone if there's a gas well within a certain proximity would you feel like it would be your responsibility to inform that person that there was a gas well within a certain distance of the house and so what do you think that distance should be? Yeah I don't know Mr. Johnson I don't know that I don't know the distance I can't I can't tell you that I'm sure that there are engineers and people that can tell us those distances that are a safe distance to be away from that well and I don't know what that is. I know what the state regulations say and I think the state regulations are less onerous by far than the city of Denton regulations I mean there is a great disparity and what if I build out in the county I have no issues with that because that's I don't know maybe a hundred feet away or 200 feet away Denton it's like 250 from the Platte well that's the wording that is the problem is from the Platte and yes I think everybody needs to know where the where the gas well is I think it's my job it's also the homeowners job and the people that are buying the land to know what's there and what's around them so I think it's it's a it's a joint process. And if somebody was buying a house from you and they pointed to something across the street or across in the pasture and they pointed that and said do you know what that is would you tell them the truth? I think so every I think I would be buying that house back if I didn't tell them the truth. Right. Well somebody that's bought two houses from you I can attest to that. Thank you. Councilmember Wasney. Tomorrow night right here 630 planning and zoning will meet and they will be considering a new gas well ordinance so I would invite you to come back here tomorrow night weigh in and as a citizen and member of the public and share with them what you've shared with us. Is that is that ordinance posted? Their whole agenda is posted and it's all being considered as we speak so it will start at P &Z before it comes to us so get in on the ground floor come tomorrow night. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Key I appreciate it thank you very much. The next speaker will be AC Adam regarding buffer zone area around Gatswells . State your name and address and your time will begin. My name is AC Adam I reside at 1806 Andover Lane in Corinth Texas. Let me raise this raise this up a little bit. I'm gonna be very brief I think Mr. Yelson and the previous speaker before me were voicing pretty much our same concerns. Thank you City Council members for allowing me to speak a moment. I'm here representing the owner of that 31 acres Mr. Yelson referred to as a realtor and we have potential development of that land under contract that in my opinion could only benefit the city in terms of turning that empty raw land full of trees and a little pond into a tax base for the city and bring in more residents more revenue and more benefit to our city and our concern of course is this consideration for the distance away from a wellhead. The question was asked about the distance from a potential residence that this gentleman might build for someone. Well Mr. Yelson pointed out that these wells that are on this adjacent property there are not on this 31 acre property is right next to their residential development in fact the southernmost wellhead is 72 feet roughly from a home from a residence the back fence of a home. So we think that a reasonable zone from a wellhead not necessarily the Platte would be fair to all concerned and be beneficial not only to the city but to the landowners that want to develop this property and bring more revenue and more business and more commerce into the city. The wellhead operators operation will still continue nothing's going to change for them because as you know there's a subsurface mineral rights they can still do whatever they want to do coincidentally this land these two wells are virtually non-productive there's not much happening there at all in terms of production one had zero production for years and they emptied it I think one month last year to a very small amount of product so they're not productive wells I realize that some wells are very productive and they need to be looked at perhaps a little differently but hopefully in the planning and zoning tomorrow evening there will be a reasonable solution that would benefit all parties. Thank you for your time. We have a question yes Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. Thank you Mayor. Can you tell me again the location of this well where there's a house 71 feet from the wellhead? Yes sir. The property in question is on the corner of Inter state 35 and Windsor West Windsor Drive. It's 31 acres. If you go down Windsor Drive to the back property line there's a subdivision right behind this property the secondary plat where the wells are. The original 78 acres was split and 31 acres is in the front on the interstate and then the wells are on the back plat the back portion of the property. The southern most wellhead is probably a Mr. Yelson could tell you more precisely where that wellhead is but it 's just a matter of a hundred you know less than a hundred feet from a home. Okay. Several homes. Thank you. Yes sir. Thank you. I see no more questions. Thank you. Our next speaker will be Nell Yeldell. Well since she was scheduled to talk at the end if she shows up then we'll certainly honor that she doesn't lose her place. That concludes the citizens report portion of our agenda save for if Miss Yeldell shows up at the end of our public hearing agenda so we will now go on to public hearings. I'm sorry consent agenda. Skipping right over. I felt the city attorney and city manager tense as I said that so I knew immediately something was amiss. Cons ent agenda. Councilmember Hawkins. Thank you mayor. I move approval of items A through S but we are pulling item Q so. Okay. Councilmember Johnson. Second that. All right we have a motion and a second on the floor for consent agenda item number four. All consent agenda items save for agenda item Q which will be considered for individual consideration upon the vote of this agenda item so we have a motion to second. Let's vote on the board please. Consent agenda item passes except for item Q which will now we take up on item for individual consideration. I will read the caption. Considered option of an ordinance of the City Council of the City of Denton Texas affirming Texas firm in the commitment of the City of Denton to the North Texas Boulevard bridge in conjunction with the 35 Express project. Thank you mayor. I'm going assuming that I'm sorry Kathleen did you my understanding is Kathleen pull this and if you'd council would like an explanation of what the project is Mark Nelson our director of transportation will make that and then we have other staff here to talk about the financing issues. Thank you. Thank you George. Mayor members of council appreciate the opportunity to come before you this evening and visit with you a little bit about a project which I think is a great town gown partnership and one that will enhance our community and image as folks travel to and through our community. That is the University pardon me the North Texas Boulevard bridge is the only bridge which will be receiving the full ultimate plan treatment in terms of construction related to the 35 Express project. Due to the geographical constraints through that corridor the entire bridge needs to be reconstructed to allow for the additional capacity for the main lanes down below. Tech stock came to us a number of years ago with a plan to move forward with that it was a baseline plan. We started working with a consultant here within the last 18 months to advance some enhancements to that bridge to improve the bridge from a baseline concept that included some components as it relates to public art which are medallions as presented in the backup material medallions for representing character of the city of Denton. UNT had requested that they have an opportunity to place some medallions also on the bridge abutments in that same corridor as staff presented that back in January council approved the medallion concept along with allowing or permitting a University of North Texas to also place medall ions. We also entered into an agreement with University of North Texas to look at how to cost share on those enhancements to the bridge to include pedestrian enhancements to the bridge deck to improve safety as well as aesthetics which would be allowing for some brick inlay design on the pedestrian walkways as well as some brick veneer pedestrian barriers to safeguard pedestrians as they cross over I-35 on North Texas Boulevard. There's also a landscaping element. Part of the agreement also includes where the University of North Texas would be funding and donating the light the pedestrian light structures on top of that pedestrian barrier wall. They asked if they could utilize their design standard to maintain concept or continuity of the design that they have within their campus . So with that said we submitted the proposed and approved design concept to TechStat and AGL. AGL as you may recall is the general contractor for 35 express project. It's a design build project. They in turn provided a cost estimate of $700,000 to complete the enhancements or betterments to the bridge. The cost share on that comes out to roughly 396,000 for the City of Denton and 303 ,000 for the University of North Texas. They'll pay for a portion their cost associated with their medallions. The City of Denton would pay for their portion associated with the medallions and specific design components of it. So all in all we think that staff believes that it's a great partnership and would like to move forward and recommend approval of an ordinance that would commit the city's share of the 700,000 to TechStat so they can move forward with the design build process. With that I would stand for any questions that you may have. I guess I've got a question and I might have not I might have just misunderstood. You said to move forward with the city's contribution of 700,000 but then you said the medallions and everything would be three. So the total amount is 700,000, 286,000 and the City of Denton share is 396,000. The rest is UNTs. Yes. Okay. Sorry. I just misunderstood. Apologize. Councilmember Hawkins. Thank you Mayor. I was just reading on the bottom of page two on the AIS there just how our portion where the money's coming from and it looked like 30 grand from the 2012 bond election. TechStat is giving us $40,000 and then the issuant of some COs for $330,000. Is that pretty typical for something like this or is this a new time a new thing that we're doing here? That's my understanding. I've Chuck Springer our director of finance may be able to answer that in further detail but typically on a project like that that would be an option that we have to finance a particular project. Thank you. Councilmember Wasney. I have a problem spending almost $400 ,000 to make a bridge pretty. So when you boil this down that's what we're talking about. So that's item number one. Now I know this is the entrance to UNT. I get that. They want a nice entrance and I know they're going to contribute $300, 000 but my job is to be a good steward of the citizens money their tax money. So that's number one. Number two certificates of obligation. One of the issues that citizens have is that we approve large sums of debt for this city under this heading. Had I not pulled this tonight this just would have slid right through that rubber stamped and it would be another $400,000 in debt certificate of obligation. So my question for the city manager are there other funding tools available to the city other than COs because I've watched these certificates of obligations for years and the citizens don't have an opportunity to weigh in because it is a rubber stamp and it is debt and it's our debt. So do we have other options? The answer to that is yes there are other options. This is the option that I think we've consistently talked about since we were talking with TechDOT and with the University on ways to do this but the other specifically there are some other ways and other funds that might be used they have an impact on other operations and it's all right Mr. Mayor I'd like to ask Chuck Springer to come down and give us a little bit more detailed explanation of what those options are and what the impact would be on other projects. Chuck is our director of finance. Thank you Chuck. Thank you. In terms of other options certificates of obligation are debt. We also have general obligation debt that was approved by the voters. Within those packages of general obligation debt that was approved the 2014 we have some funds designated for miscellaneous street projects also miscell aneous sidewalk projects and the portion that the city's doing really is a combination of those some of its sidewalk improvements a little bit of street improvements. So another option is to use some of that authority from the geo obligation for this 330,000. Now again that's debt it would it would basically be the same interest rate as certificates of obligation it's the same overall pledge of property tax and that would be issuing debt. The only other option really is to cash fund this somehow and that would generally be done by a one-time funding out of the city's fund balance out of the general fund if if the City Council wished to cash fund this. The impact of that is it draws down the fund balance a little bit or we could you know in the upcoming budget use a supplemental package and fund it through ongoing revenues from the general fund. And I would like to mention one one of the reasons I know this is one of my speeches I like to give on equity and intergenerational equity one of the reasons you issued debt is so that the individuals using an asset you try to match the debt with the life of the asset the individuals using the asset pay for the asset so while a lot of times we see debt is issued too much or too much debt at certain levels one of the reasons we do that is if it's going to be a long-term asset we want individuals who are using that to pay if you think about a roadway that may last 30 or 40 years if you cash fund all of that those of us who are here now are paying it but those later on don't pay so one of the reasons to do debt is what's called inter generational equity which basically means those who are using an asset will pay for it over its life and that's one of the reasons that we issue debt now you try to balance that with ability to pay and not to issue too much debt but you also don't want to burden current taxpayers with too much expense to try to cash fund too much of long-term assets. Thank you. Councilmember Roden. I don't know if this is for Mark or for you so it might be a combination I appreciate the generation generational equity economic lecture we got that 's good actually. I know this project is kind of a combination of a few things you mentioned prettying a bridge and I think there's a portion of that which was a significant conversation during the 2012 bond election we were debating on whether or not to invest in a public art component the whole discussion seemed to surround and I was very public about whether or not to to devote some to public funds which we all had in mind prettying up the corridor as I-35 was going on but then the other aspect to the top of the bridge is while there are aesthetic issues it's primarily a safety issue as it stands now students and there's campus there's dorms on the other side of the campus for the primary campus have real no safe way to cross that on foot or a bike right now they're kind of walking on a very small sidewalk that is right could tilt them right over onto the highway if they're not safe and I think a lot of us when we started seeing these plans come in said what possibilities are there to partner with the University of North Texas and do something that's in the best interest of the city best interest University we're leveraging some of our funds they're almost matching those funds so but at least to talk about the public portion of the aesthetic concern can somebody bring us up to date on that there was a debate large debate and I can't remember all the details but the question was how do we trigger the public art policy with that bond election in 2012 and we felt we needed to tie it to street projects and the focus of that was streets and that was at the advent of the 35 project and it seems like we all kind of settled on the best way to spend this knowing that this is at least the first of the bridges that's going to be completed in phase one of 35 let 's get something out the door looking at medallions and stuff like that so that was a pretty public discussion as I recall is that not correct yes as part of the 2012 election for street improvements it was 20 million four hundred thousand four hundred thousand was for public art in working with bond council and other legal authorities that public art money needed to be spent associated with the improvements that were approved by the voters if you remember at this last election we kind of broke it up and said if there's public art within the parks proposition it has to be spent on park property and those type of things well this was within the street proposition that was approved so it was determined that it needed to be public art related to a roadway project and I think the discussion of the Public Art Committee was this this was the first opportunity to do that so there was a lot of discussions of the Public Art Committee and looked at different types of public art that could be put along the I-35 project and so I guess that and I'm sure you might have some things to say too I mean I think the aesthetic issue I think was very very thoroughly vetted during that 2012 election and the voters could have said no to that component as well but the other issue is on top of the bridge that's a safety issue was vetted for almost a year if not more through mobility committee the council looking at that and I think while there is a funding question there 's also a leveraging of funds that partnership I think is helpful to solve some safety issues so I feel comfortable with this project. Council member Wasney. We have a pedestrian bridge that comes across this freeway it's going to remain correct? Yes ma'am. Totally safe, totally pedestrian, totally protected. In terms of using the art money that's only thirty thousand out of three hundred and ninety six thousand so while citizens weighed in and said yes we're gonna put in some art money we're only talking thirty thousand out of three hundred and ninety six thousand so I'm just on record saying that's a heck of a lot of money to spend to make a bridge look good and understand some some safety issues but gosh that's a lot of money and I just needed the citizens to hear that. Councilmember Johnson. Thank You Mayor. Now I was actually a citizen on the citizens bond advisory committee when we were talking about public art and tied to streets and one of the things that that citizens committee decided was because what was proposed at the time if I remember right in the conversations was every street so if a street was it was two to four percent and whatever was spent on that street you had to spend two to four percent on art on that street like in conjunction with the project and what we came to was let's let's use that money to be more impactful and most of the conversation ended up being around okay 35 is going to expand this would be our opportunity to do some things along I-35 along that corridor so I think certainly the that forty-something people that was on that advisory committee you know agreed that that would be a good place to try to use those funds unfortunately with this expansion we've only got one bridge to work with so this is the only one we can do something on right now which is a disappointment but it is what it is and we'll have another phase to come around I think the my recollection of the conversation and not fair to you Kathleen because you weren 't here at the time there was a there was a lot of concern about the width of the walk the pathways on the bridge and the the pedestrian protections that were in place well text I'd already let the contract so the contract was done that was out there I don't know what the breakdown is on what portion of the three hundred and thirty something thousand that's not art I think I have that number right is for the pedestrian walkways and for the for the barriers because we've got some barriers protecting the the the pedestrian walkways from at least on one side I believe so all I'm saying is I think that you're exactly right if it was 400,000 to make the bridge look cute I'd be out on that I think the the look and feel aesthetic stuff is probably very much a minority of that and I think the bulk of it was the the reconfiguration of the lanes the construction of the pedestrian pathways the lighting to light the pathways the protection barriers and some of that stuff so I don't know if there was enough detail in here to kind of not fair to you because all the background isn't really in here but but I think the I think we're probably talking about a very small portion of the total is for aesthetics and the bulk of it is for pedestrian access and safety would be my my recollection of it so I'm very I'm very comfortable with the project. Council member Hawkins. Thank you Mayor. In 2013 when I was first running for council one of the first questions asked there was it was about the I-35 widening project and the gateways coming into Denton and I remember because I was just so nervous that I almost got sick in the parking lot but that was the first question that came up that's why I remember it and I think being on council back then you kind of you don't know what the numbers really represent there's a lot of big numbers and you start we've been working on this for a couple years there's even a point where we were going to stamp the art into the concrete I believe. That is correct yes sir. And then we are worried about the longevity of that or what color it was going to turn. Correct. And so we've been talking about this for a couple years now and we finally decided on a medallion and if anything happened we could actually take it off and possibly move it to other locations. Is that right? Am I remembering that correctly? Correct or even change the identity or pull it off to do whatever type of maintenance right may be desired. And just with the partnership with UNT and truly understanding this intergenerational equity too you know I'm not for just going into debt for you know not the best reasons but understanding that and many generations are going to enjoy this you know I I don't have a lot of heartburn about this one so I just went on record to say that. Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. Thank you well I'm very satisfied with the amount of opportunities citizens have had to weigh in on this and to speak on it because it has been a long conversation that we've had and I think that that it's important that this is about more than the statics it's about connectivity. I-35 is getting wider and I-35 already creates a pretty significant barrier that splits the city and it makes it very difficult for people who are interested in getting around town any other way than in a car if they want to walk or if they want to ride a bicycle and we want to encourage that we need to have provide them some some safe and comfortable ways to get across this enormous barrier that's getting wider and it's going to continue to get wider and so the fact that indeed we do have a pedestrian bridge which connects a parking lot to a football stadium. This road this bridge connects an entire neighborhood to the other side of the city and and we're going to need to actually look at when we have the opportunity to do some more of these whether it's through by way of an underpass under the interstate or by way of other bridges so that we can keep that connectivity so people who want to engage in active transportation and get really through the city and not and not have a roadblock that that cuts them all from whichever side of the city they're on from the other side so I'm very much in support of it. All right thank you. Councilmember Rodin. Thank you Mayor. I move approval of item 4Q. Councilmember- Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. Second. We have a motion and a second on agenda item 4Q. Let's vote please. Item carries 5 to 1. We'll now move into our public hearing portion of our agenda. Agenda item 5A which is hold a public hearing consider an initial zoning of neighborhood residential NR1 on approximately 4.494.495 acres of land generally located approximately 760 feet from east of South Trinity Road. Thank you Mayor. I'm going to ask Amy Bissett our director of planning and development if she would present this public hearing for your consideration. Thank you. Thank you Mayor and City Council members. The first case that you'll be hearing today is an initial zoning case. Let me get the slides pulled up here for you. This is case Z15-0012. It's in a request for an initial zoning from our rural zoning designation to neighborhood residential 1. It's on approximately four and a half acres. It is located on the east side of town east of May Hill. It is north of McKinney and east of South Trinity. It is currently zoned as RD5X and the applicant has requested an initial zoning of neighborhood residential 1. The future land use map designates this area as rural. I have to give you a little bit of background and this was this property was annexed into the city in 2013 and giving the given the default zoning district and in order to develop this property they have to plat it and a minimum lot size under this rural zoning district would be five acres. The size of this lot is about four and a half acres so they are requesting an initial zoning of NR1. Taking a look at the property the surrounding properties are all one to five acres in size so it is consistent with neighboring properties. NR1 is considered a transition between between rural areas and low density residential and we do find that it is consistent with the comp plan. This is the zoning designation and so criteria to approve zoning . It must conform to the land use plan the land use element of the Denton plan 2030 and it must provide adequate provision of public utilities and we do find that it meets that criteria. The Planning and Zoning Commission recommends approval seven to zero and staff recommends approval. I do believe the applicant is here if you like to hear from them as well and I'm happy to answer any questions. Any questions for staff before we open public hearing? Seeing none thank you. Thank you. We will now open the public hearing. Do we have any cards to speak? We have no cards but this is a public hearing so anyone wishing to speak on this agenda item please come down and state your name and address and your time will begin. Yes come on down and state your name and address please. Leo Miller 3091 Swisher Road I'm just curious where the mobility plan puts the post oak that eventually goes through on that map I didn't see that. We will it's possible we'll ask this question of staff once once we get to that point to see if there's an answer if not we'll make sure somebody gets back with you on that answer absolutely. This is a public hearing anybody else wishing to speak? Come down state your name and address for the record please . One more time anybody wishing to speak at this public hearing? Seeing none we will now close the public hearing for agenda item 5a and and I see no questions but I wanted to ask staff if they had a response on the mobility plan but that may be something if we could get the contact information for the for the question or for the speaker then we might be able to. I don't have an exhibit that would show that okay exactly at the moment but I'm happy to follow up okay and provide that information. All right thank you you bet. All right seeing no one else wishing to speak on council but councilmember Johnson. Thank you mayor I move approval of item 5a. Councilmember Hawkins. I'll second. We have motion to second on 5a let's vote on the board please. Agenda item 5a carries 6-0. Moving on to agenda item 5b hold a public hearing consider adoption of an ordinance of the city of Denton Texas regarding a specific use permit for multifamily dwellings and neighborhood residential mixed use. Thank you mayor. Miss Bissett will also present this public hearing. Thank you. Thank you mayor and City Council members. This is a specific use permit for multifamily development on McKinney . It is currently located in two zoning districts NRMU and NRMU 12. The subject property is on the south side of McKinney Street slightly west of Mockingbird Lane. As I previously indicated it's located in two zoning districts today. In cases like this we typically go with the more restrictive zoning designation which in this case would be NRMU and that means that a specific use permit would be required in order to approve a multifamily development here . The future land use map shows that this is a moderate density residential with four to twelve units per acre and it does include multifamily projects. The original site plan showed six three-story buildings containing 217 multifamily units with a clubhouse and pool amenity and a dog park you can see on the exhibit above. After consideration by the Planning and Zoning Commission the applicant did revise their site plan to incorporate PNC 's recommendations which included the addition of 35 bike racks, trellis screening of the AC units that face McKinney Street and calling out the the type and nature of the fencing which would be a six-foot wrought iron fence and a wood perimeter fence. In order to approve this specific use permit it we would need to find that it is compatible and not injurious to the enjoyment of the neighboring properties. The properties adjacent to this specific parcel on the north is a single-family neighborhood you can see in the exhibit that there is a buffer there between homes and this proposed development. On the west side is a substation and on the east side is a church. A second criteria for approval would be that it does not impede the normal and orderly development of surrounding vacant property. The vacant property currently would be to the south of the parcel and it is it is zoned in R4 and the mobility plan shows Dutch ess Drive would be the east-west corridor to access that development. Third criteria would be that the driveways and parking spaces provide for safe and convenient movement. In the graphic above you'll see that on the left the parking spaces are evenly distributed to avoid large expanses of paving and on the right you'll see that they provide internal private drives that have enhanced trees and walkways. The fourth criteria for approval is that there's sufficient landscaping and screening to ensure harmony and compatibility with the adjacent property. The applicant has provided for sufficient screening they have indicated a type B bar buffer on the west side of the proper property which is a 10-foot and evergreen and deciduous buffer and on the right side or the east side is a type C buffer which would be a 15-foot buffer between the property and the church. Lastly the the criteria for approval would be a similarity and scale bulk and coverage. We currently have proposed six three- story structures and we found that the the massing is appropriate and that there are variations in the structures and that pedestrian connectivity is provided as well. An additional criteria would be architectural compatibility with the impact area. You'll see in the graphic above the building elevations they do show stone brick and other appropriate materials that are consistent with the requirements of the Denton Development Code. The development is should be compatible with adjacent properties as envisioned in the Denton Plan 2030. Here is an exhibit that shows the context of the surrounding developments and the Denton Plan 2030. North of McKinney shows a low residential up at the top of the screen here. South of McKinney shows moderate residential and then beneath that further south would be business innovation and regional mixed use. The intent of the subject property is to encourage denser housing between McKinney to the north and Shady Oaks to the south. These land uses support adjacent uses to the south of business innovation and regional mixed use and are consistent with the future land use plan. Public notifications were sent on May 31st and 13 notices were sent and in the required certified mailing of 200 feet and 27 courtesy notices were sent. To date we've received no responses in opposition in favor or neutral. The Planning and Zoning Commission does recommend approval of this unanimously with the conditions identified by staff and that the development development must substantially conform to the proposed site plan, landscape plan, and proposed elevations . Additionally, Planning and Zoning Commission asked for bike racks, trell is screening of AC units and to call out the type and size of the fencing. Staff also recommends approval with the the first two conditions. I believe the applicant may be here and and I'm happy to answer any questions. -Mrs. Hawkins. - Thank you Mayor. Amy, if the zoning is already there why is the SUP needed for this again? -It's a requirement in NRMU that an SUP is necessary for a multif amily development. -Okay. -But NRMU 12, there's multifamilies allowed with some limitations but when there's two zoning designations on the property as is this case we always go with the more restrictive designation. -Thank you. -Council member Rodin. -Is the reason philosophically to require the SUP in NRMU, is it because there's some sense in which we're trying to encourage a commercial mix with residential and so we don't want to just take advantage of simply the residential component without going through a more public process? I mean I don't know the answer to that question. -You're really gonna test me now, are you? -Yeah, I just don't know why and we can all stew on that but my thought is again as I think about the development of McKinney Street there's a lot of mixed use kind of all the way down it this is kind of close to 288 and even if you go down to Woodrow and beyond there's some health in that especially if you're putting more density you want to have more neighborhood type of amenities that someone can go and do their shopping and walking distance or something like that. So I guess at what point would the density be sufficient for that as future applications come up the city would say you know as part of this project we want this to be a bit more mixed use seemingly similarly to what we're doing in the downtown area. Our zoning is all based on density and as it moves more towards a more dense zoning district there's less restrictions on multifamily and NRMU 12 would be a denser zoning district than NRMU and so to your point it may be that more allowance for those commercial uses. And just to clarify and I think I know the answer to this they would be required to put a sidewalk in front of McKinney for the stretch of their property as part of their development. I'm going to ask for help on that one. Yes. Audience says yes. And I'll just point that out to McKinney and I'm sure others have brought this up and I know we're talking about prior to the realization of sidewalk projects as we're getting more density along there and there's already a lot of residents McKinney Street is atrocious as it relates to sidewalk connectivity and there's a lot of people going back and forth not just because like I would because I want to walk but a lot of folks who have to walk and so I think from a planning perspective just to throw that out there I'm comfortable with this project thinking about it but we got to make sure we're making it safe for pedestrians moving back for so I'd throw that out. One of the things that the applicant did do is have a neighborhood meeting and there were some concerns raised just about the increased traffic and safety involved in that area and that will be something that's contemplated more thoroughly in the platting process but we are looking at that area in general and the density that's being generated there and how to address safety issues. Councilmember Johnson you had requested to speak and for some reason you withdrew I just was giving you an opportunity. Thanks Mayor. I think it was at my... He shook off my sign. I was gonna ask for clarification but I think I heard it answered NRMU 12 multifamily is allowed. That's correct. Which is the zoning on the frontage of the property. That's correct. NRMU is a zoning in the back where it's so they could go build the apartments in the front if they wanted to anyway right so this is just a... Right because there's two different zoning districts we go with the more restrictive zoning district. Okay that's my first question. My other question is the the modifications recommended by planning and zoning also by staff those been run by the applicant. Applicants fine with those modifications? Yes they are and in fact they updated their site plan to reflect those modifications already. Okay thank you. Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. While you 're flipping those slides around so quickly would you go back to the one that has the aerial photograph? I just got back to the end. That one? There you go. You know it occurred to me when we 're talking about the sidewalk that I'm assuming that DME is going to be putting a sidewalk in on the frontage of McKinney by the substation. Is that correct ? I don't know the answer to that. Well I'll bet we are because that would be required of any developer and since there's a sidewalk in front of the church what we're doing is now we're creating a sidewalk that that eventually is going to go somewhere and pretty soon I guess it's going to connect up with Mack Park but my memory serves me we don't have a sidewalk along Mack Park along McKinney so we might think about some of our sidewalk money to to increase that connectivity all along McKinney Street so that since we're expecting other developers to do it we want to be doing our part and then and if we have the opportunity to make this really connected because there is a bus route that goes along there there are lots of people that stand there waiting for buses and they have to walk along McKinney to get to the buses. Any other questions for staff before we open the public hearing? Thank you. We will now open the public hearing for agenda item 5B. I see no cards but this is a public hearing anybody wishing to speak please come down and state your name and address. Anybody wishing to speak on agenda item 5B? Seeing none we will now close the public hearing Councilmember Hawkins. Thank you mayor I move approval of item 5B. Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. Second. Oh I'm sorry yes. I just wanted to clarify a point it's probably Amy's to answer but on the conditions I thought I heard you say that the staff recommended two conditions and there were some additional ones that the Planning and Zoning Commission may have put forward was that accurate? Yes that is correct and if so then we need a clarification with regard to those conditions whether the vote would include only those that are pro-offered by staff or whether it would be those all of them pro-offered by the Planning and Zoning Commission. The two conditions that are recommended by staff are that the development substantially conformed to the proposed site plan and landscape plan is number one and that it must substantially conform to the proposed elevations which is number two. Those that were added by the Planning and Z oning Commission are to include areas for bike racks to hold 35 bikes. The applicant has updated their site plan to reflect that. To include trellis screening of the AC units that are along McKinney Street. The site plans also been updated for that and to label the height and type of screening fence and the site plan has been updated for that as well. Okay Councilmember Hawkins. Okay I move approval of item 5B with P and Z recommended five conditions. We now have a motion and a second for agenda item 5B. Let's vote on the board please. Agenda item 5B carries 6-0. We'll go on to agenda item 5C hold a public hearing and consider adoption of an ordinance to the City of Denton amending ordinance number 2007-032. Call on Miss Bissett. I'm sorry I'm looking at a different number. See is it see did I miss something? Thank you Mayor and City Council members. What you're considering before you now is a request to amend an ordinance that was created in 2007 in order to facilitate the development of an active adult single-family community. The site is approximately 31 acres it's on the southwest corner of H inkle and Windsor Drive. In 2007 there was an ordinance passed that designated the zoning from NR2 to NR3 and also created some restrictions on the property in the form of an overlay. The current developer is requesting some amendments to that overlay but not an amendment to the base zoning. In the first exhibit here you'll see the location of the property as indicated before it's on the southwest corner of Hinkle Road and West Windsor Drive. The proposed development is 101 single-family active adult residential housing. It would be a gated community to address safety concerns. It would be the requested amendments are to promote visibility and security for the development and to provide secure walking trails that are inside the fence. The existing overlay requirements today would restrict their ability to create a safe development to meet the needs of the community that they're looking to support. This request does not change the underlying zoning or the density. The current zoning is neighborhood residential 3 with overlay conditions which we'll go through in some detail momentarily and like I indicated previously they're not proposing a change to that just to some of the conditions. The future land use plan calls for low density residential and NR3 is consistent with that . The surrounding land uses to the north of the property is North Lakes Park. To the east of the property is Headley subdivision which is single family and some retirement and elderly care. To the south is more elderly housing and to the west is Bowling Green Park. I'm going to walk through the overlay conditions that were set in 2007 and I'll go through them one by one regarding what the request is in order to either keep it, remove it, or amend it in some form or fashion. So the overlay conditions that were set in 2007, the first one was that the developer would preserve the woods along the south and east boundary of the site. They would also be required to provide a perimeter fence with a wrought iron appearance with taller posts topped by a decorative finnally at the finial at the corner of each lot and they would they would put that fence at a 50-foot setback from the existing curb and the rows of shrubbery would be provided between the fence and the sidewalk to obtain privacy and the distance from the fence and the back of the sidewalk would be a minimum of 12 feet. The developer and later in HOA would take responsibility for maintenance and irrigation of that three acre perimeter landscape area. Thirdly they had some conditions, some design conditions that are above and beyond what's in the Denton Development Code specifically that except for glazing doors and trim the exterior of the home shall be a vitr ified clay brick or stone for all vertical services with a direct-load path to the foundation. In addition there were some conditions related primarily to setbacks from the front side and rear yard but also some widths associated with the street right-of-way, the parkway, and the sidewalk and some restrictions related to setbacks for front entry garages and that three-car gar ages would not face the street. The proposed modifications do not change the permitted uses or the density and they are consistent with the future land use map. The proposed modifications speak to the following things and I'll go into more detail on them. They address the woods along the south and east boundary, they address the perimeter fence which we learned about the setback of that under the existing overlay, it addresses masonry setbacks, the front entry garage setback, and the three-car garage. The exhibit overhead at the moment is what a typical street section looks like based on our transportation criteria manual requirements. You'll see that our right-of-way width is 50 feet, that our standard parkway is 11 feet, and our standard sidewalk is 5 feet. That'll be relevant momentarily. So the proposed modifications to the existing overlay conditions, the first two criteria, the one related to the woods along the south and east boundary, they are asking that that be removed. The reason for the removal of that is that the wooded area that exists there today is not within the property boundary and is not owned by the applicant. So they have no control over the ability to maintain those trees. In the past there have been trees on that property that are no longer there today, but that was under previous ownership and some of that was even prior to 2007 that those trees were cut down. So their request is simply that they have no control over those trees. Secondly, they're asking to remove the statement related to the perimeter fence and replace it with another one, which I'll show you momentarily. The revised statement would say very similar, a perimeter fence with wrought iron appearance with taller posts topped by a cast iron stone column capped every 24 feet. The setback of the proposed homes would be a 50-foot minimum for the existing curb, which in the previous statement the setback was between the fence and the curb. And again, the developer and later a homeowner's association would take responsibility for maintenance and irrigation. The reason for this condition is that it prevents, the previous condition prevents the applicant from being able to put a trail inside the perimeter fence that would provide security. So essentially it's just moving the fence to encompass the trail rather than having the trail be on the outside of the fence. So it provides more security but still provides the exact same landscape buffer and open space. They are proposing that they leave the restriction on design criteria to be the same as it was previously with the exterior of the homes being clay brick or stone. Next they are proposing that the, almost every statement related to the side yard, rear yard, front yard setbacks would be, all those would be removed. So starting at the top of the list, the street right-of-way, the way that it was written in the previous overlay, was a minimum of 56 feet with a parkway of 9 feet. Our transportation criteria manual calls for a street right-of-way of 50 feet and a parkway of 11 feet. And so they're requesting this change just so that it's consistent with what our transportation criteria manual calls for. The following four bullets which are related to front yard setbacks, side yard setbacks, and rear yard set backs, all of those are inconsistent with our current DDC and prohibit the applicant from being able to successfully accomplish the visibility and safety of the development for the residents that they would like to attract. The same goes for the front entry garage setback. That creates an issue with visibility and safety for their residents. They are still maintaining that three yard , three car garages would not face the street. Just real briefly, this is the site as it exists today. Notifications were mailed on June 1st. 28 property owners were notified within the 200 foot radius and 96 were notified by courtesy in the 500 foot radius. To date we've gotten one response in opposition and one neutral response. Because this is a zoning overlay, the criteria necessary would be for a zoning amendment. In order to meet that criteria, the proposed zoning must conform to the future land use designation. The staff analysis does find that the modifications are compatible with the existing single- family development to the west and they do conform with the future land use map. Secondly, the proposed zoning facilitates the adequate provision of infrastructure, which it changes nothing about the density or the underlying zoning that exists today. The Planning and Zoning Commission does recommend approval of this six to one subject to the following conditions. And those conditions are the new overlay criteria that are requested by the applicant. So the perimeter fence would still exist, but it would not, it would move closer to the curb to allow for the sidewalk to be inside the security fence. The design criteria would remain the same. Three car garages would still not be allowed to face the street. And the Planning and Zoning Commission added an additional criteria , which is that any ingress or egress to the subject property would not remove or affect the bike lane that's on Hinkle Drive. Staff recommends approval of this as well with the conditions that we just went through minus the condition regarding the ingress and egress for the bike lane. That was added by the Planning and Zoning Commission. I do not believe the applicant is here, but they might have walked in since I came up here. I'm happy to answer any questions. Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. Thank you. This is for active senior adults. Yes sir. And there's going to be this fence around it for security reasons. Are they dangerous? Who's security are we concerned about? I mean the folks in the Headley addition or the folks that are living inside there? So is there access to, when we've seen these before, and we've seen several of these come before us, and by the way something is very different because the Headley neighborhood is not here. That's right. Wow. I didn't think I was going to see this in my lifetime. That we were going to have this go through, a development of this. Is there going to be, but and when we've seen it before, we've seen some some preliminary notes and we've seen some how it's going to be laid out and I didn't see it in the backup. I hope it's not there and I missed it. But is there going to be access on to Windsor? Is there going to be access on to Hinkle? Both? Or just two accesses on Hinkle? How's that going to work? Those access points would be determined at the platting phase. Okay. And the zoning has to be in place first. Okay. Does that come back, does that just go back to P&Z? It does. It goes to Planning and Zoning Commission. That's correct. Okay. The next question and it has to do with the sidewalks . Are there going to be sidewalks outside that security fence also provided by the developer along Hinkle and Windsor? I don't know the answer to that question. I would assume it would be required as a public sidewalk because what would be inside the perimeter fence would be a private sidewalk. Well I need something more than I assume. Yes, sidewalk would be required, public sidewalk. Okay. The next question is why does why the staff recommends three of the four conditions placed by P&Z? Why did staff choose not to recommend the fourth one, any egress, ingress and egress to the subject property shall not remove or affect the on-street bike lane on Hinkle Drive? The staff recommendation and staff report came before the Planning and Zoning Commission recommendation and so the Planning and Zoning Commission simply added a fourth criteria. It's not that the staff doesn't recommend that it's just that when we made our recommendation it was to the Planning and Zoning Commission and they've added an additional recommendation to bring forward to you. Okay. We don't have an issue with the Planning and Zoning Commission recommendation. It just looked odd the way it came out in the report. I think that 's all my questions Mayor. Thank you. Thank you. Councilmember Rhoad. A couple things. On that point do we know if that P&Z recommendation has that been vetted through our engineering team to know if that's even plausible? I mean I hate to put a condition that's impossible or not up to engineering standards. That's a very good question. Earl Eskobar may be able to answer that. I apologize I didn't quite follow the question. So it sounds like their recommendation was that the ingress egress to this property would not disturb the bike lane I guess as I understand it along Henkel and I don't know from an engineering perspective how that works one way or the other. I've seen a lot of kind of right turn lanes left turn lanes that kind of work around or work with bike lanes even on Windsor down the street. So I'd hate to from a from a jurisdictional point of view put an SUP on that it's unclear how that relates to our engineering standards with streets and bike lanes and turn lanes think anything like that. So do we know if that condition has been vetted through our engineering team enough to say whether or not that's possible or what happens if we apply that condition and then the engineering team later on says we can't do that or it's impossible to make that happen? Without knowing exactly where the access point is going to be along Henkel it appears that they will have an access point off of Hen kel. We'll just have to review their design come during the plotting process when they submit their construction documents on how their street configuration is and our access location in relation to the bike lane. So I guess from a from a legal perspective given that there's a bit of ambiguity as to how that condition would be applied. Is there any ability for the applicant to walk away from it in the event that it can't happen or can't get a stamp of approval from an engineer or is the recommendation not to apply that condition in light of that ambiguity? Well the condition is crafted it's a little bit strong it shall not remove or affect the on-street bike lane on Henkel Drive since we're not certain apparently as we sit here today a possibility I guess for the council might be to soften that just a little bit and not use such strong shall not remove or affect and and work with softer words to give a little latitude because we just apparently can't can't give a perfect answer on that particular issue. Okay the other question thank you very much Earl. On this tree question I guess Mike I know there's a park over there do we know if those that existing tree is that parkland right there there's a whole tree line to the south I guess south and west of that property. I'm gonna ask Julie Wyatt to come up as our planner she's got some more background on the on what the history is with the trees. Good evening Julie Wyatt associate planner with the city of Denton. We did some research on the trees based upon some conversations that we had with P&Z and it appears that the lot was once quite wooded and that those trees were cut down in 2007 after that that condition was placed on with that overlay regarding the trees. I don't think that condition in in doing some background research had much to do with those trees that are off the property to the south and then and then part of Bowling Green Park. I think they had more to do with some trees that were left after that initial cutting of trees in 2007. Those trees were then removed in 2011 so now there aren't any trees on the side so at this point that overlay condition is somewhat moot because those trees were removed. But by a previous owner? Yes sir. So this owner is not taking responsibility program. Yeah okay so my final and this is I kind of wish the applicant was here I'll just make the statement because all the discussion of security kind of bothers me and I think gives the wrong impression about this neighborhood. I mean this is in a very sought-after I mean that's one of the premier walking paths of the city right across the street that elderly seniors kids toddlers everyone in the city goes so I know for anyone who's listening there's no criminal safety concern in this area and so it's it's odd you I think I'd want folks who move in there to be part of that great amenity across their heck they could save money on walking paths and give them you've got a whole park across there but the optics of that are just a little bit off-putting to me. In my discussions with the applicant he he's interviewed many of his target demographic and and many of the many of the concerns that they've had were having to do with security it's not necessarily because of this locality it's it's regarding the demographic and just wanting that sense of enclosure and security and but also open visibility when it comes to the garages. Okay thank you. Sure. Member Johnson. Thank You Mayor I want to go back to this the additional commentary about the bike lane from from planning and zoning obviously the applicant is going to have to put a site plan forth that's going to go through a DRC DRC review process we already have a bike lane there to me I think we can trust our staff to work with the applicant to make sure that the only any modification to the bike lane would be something that would be absolutely necessary for access to their project just like you have to give people access from the street so I would be comfortable with just removing that and trusting the staff to make sure that that bike lane is not impacted at all if at all possible but if it is impacted that it's done in such a way that the developer would be required to pay for whatever modifications were necessary to allow that bike traffic to to be able to continue down the street so to my concern is we put any statement in there about it I could you know Murphy's law then the thing gets delayed another 60 days the staff has to spend a bunch of time bringing something back to us for modification to that so I would think that's we would do that anyway as a staff is what I'm saying so I would just throw out there that if maybe we just remove it all together and trust the staff to handle it I did receive some clarification as well that because it's a gated community will require them to have a private access drive leading up to that gate and so most likely we will be able to avoid impacting the bike lane but I I agree that we will hold to our standards and and minimize any impact if there's any at all to the bike lane. Councilmember Hawkins. Thank you Mayor. Just to add a note to that security in the fence too I agree with you Kevin but I think the product that the developers trying to give is that it's a retired kind of community and they travel a lot so I think when if I'm reading the backup right remembering it right so just adding that so thank you. All right any other questions for staff before we open the public hearing? Seeing none thank you. We will now open the public hearing for agenda item 5C. Anybody wishing to speak on this agenda item please come down and state your name and address and your time will begin. Anybody wishing to speak? Please come on down state your name and address and your time will begin. Ben Easley. Well 707 Northridge Street and I did receive notification. It seems like this didn't set the set the neighborhood off like previous developments that had been planned for that area. Having an older demographic in the area would probably be great for both neighborhoods on either side. I do have questions about if the values of the homes in there match the neighborhoods to the west what are the proposed or suspected values there or if there's a difference between what is to the west versus what's in my neighborhood. It sounds like we're probably looking at something good that's a balance between the two and then also traffic on Hinkle. If the only ingress and exit for that property is on Hinkle how is the Hinkle University intersection going to look? I think that's all I have. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Any other people wishing to speak on this agenda item? Public hearing come on down. State your name and address. Anybody wishing to speak? Seeing none we will now close the public hearing. A couple of little bit of history on the tree issue because I was on council when that first arrived and I too want to echo you Mayor Pro Tem that in fact I had a couple of conversations with some of the people who were a little more vocal in that neighborhood and they knew that what was coming so I think that's it's reflected that they're really okay with that. But I do recall that this has gone through several zoning iterations and the last one or the last request was back in 2011 and that overlay was put in in 2007 with the original zoning request and somehow the trees even though there was an overlay to not remit there were a lot of trees still on the property on the south and west side within this property boundary but they were removed at some point between 2007 and 2011 so it really made that issue move so it's really more as was reported more aimed towards trees that used to be on the project. I'm really glad to see this honestly because this piece of property has gone through some interesting transformations or attempts at this and I think it'll be something that will fit in with the neighborhood. Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. Thank you. I would like to hear from staff at some point about the ownership of that property to the west and to the south who owns that property where those trees are because it seems to be adjacent to some city property and that might be something I don't know if it would be in closed session to get a report on that or an informal staff report. I do have one question on one of the conditions and that's the fence condition because I know in the original overlay it's pretty specific as to what kind of perimeter fence it was, wrought iron fence with, I forgot what the finials were, I appreciate you being able to even pronounce that, I'm surprised I was even able to. Whereas the current one says a wrought iron like fence. The original one said a fence with a wrought iron appearance as well. So it's the same. It's the same. Okay. So that's red. Okay. That is the only comment or question I have. Mayor Pro Tem, you're still requested to speak, is it? Oh, no. We just now forget to cancel that out. Okay. Well, I'll go ahead and call on you then as the movement. All right. I got it. Well, I'm going to move approval with all of the recommendations made by planning and zoning. However, on recommendation four, I would change the wording to strike the word affect. Clearly, it's going to affect the bike lane, but it cannot remove the bike lane because the bike lane is there by virtue of city ordinance. There's already a city ordinance that ordains a bike lane on both sides of HECL and they're going to have to stay there and that development is going to have to be built in a way that preserves the bike lanes on both sides. This just sort of reinforces that. Surely it's going to affect it because there's probably going to be access off of HECL. So that means that there's going to be some effect. So that word has to be removed. But other than that, I would move approval with all of the recommendations, including item four from planning and zoning, removing the word affect. Council Member Rhoads. We have a motion and a second on agenda item five C. Let's vote on the board, please. All right, motion carries six zero. We will now go on to agenda item five D. Hold a public hearing and consider rezoning request from neighborhood residential mixed use NRMU and neighborhood residential mixed use NRMU 12 zoning district to a neighborhood residential NR6. Thank you Mayor Amy Bissett. Our Director of Planning and Development will present this item as well. Thank you. Thank you. The item up for consideration now is Z15-0010. This is a residential development called Villages of Carmel . This is phase four B. This is a rezoning request on approximately 20 acres located on the northwest intersection of Pokras Page and Post Oak. It is a rezoning request from NRMU and NRMU 12 to NR6 on 20 acres. There's an exhibit of the site location as I indicated previously. It's on the corner of Pokras Page and Post Oak Boulevard. To give you a view of the vicinity map, you can see on the left side in blue the Villages of Carmel. On the right is the Preserve at Pecan Creek. Down in the bottom left is Glenwood Village. The site in question is nestled right in the middle. To give you a little bit of background, in 2003, Hologun H omes submitted plans for 186 acre mixed use community development, which included a combination of single family, town homes and mixed use. At that time, to accommodate the mixed use component that was contemplated in that development, the 20 acres that you're considering tonight was rezoned from a neighborhood residential designation to NRMU and NRMU 12, which is the zoning designation that's in place today. The original developer is now no longer associated with the development. The current developer is requesting a rezoning back to a residential zoning. In order to develop the last phase as residential. In the exhibit overhead, you'll see the original 2003 concept plan on the left compared with the development as it has developed in real life on the right. With the red area being the area that was originally indicated to be more of a commercial center for the neighborhood. The future land use map does call for this area to be neighborhood mixed use. That's as a result of the original intent of the developer. The major considerations that our staff contemplated while reviewing this case was, is there a population in place today to support a mixed use development on this site? What are the nearest commercial services for these neighbors if we were to rezone this to residential? Then also, the extension of Postalk Boulevard, which provides more of a corridor through this area. The purpose of the current zoning as NRMU and NRMU 12 is to promote mixed use activity to serve the surrounding single family neighborhoods. Rezoning this back to residential would reduce the amount of undeveloped commercial land. We currently have about 2500 existing homes located in the surrounding developments. We know that this specific area will be the corner of a future primary arterial collector street. Do we have the density to support the mixed use, which is the current zoning? We have calculated that within a square mile, we have about 5000 residents, including several residential developments. By comparison, the area up on Sherman 380 and Loop 288 is about the same residential density and the same amount of space. Just to give you a visual representation across the city, they're requesting an NR6 zoning. You can see down here in the bottom right that that is a very large residential development with a considerable distance to the nearest commercial and mixed use areas by comparison to the other NR6 zoning areas in the city. The nearest commercial area is located along Loop 288 or I- 35. We know that Post Oak Boulevard will be extended up to this area in the future and it's intended to be a six lane divided arterial with Paukress Page and Edwards both being four lane collector streets going east and west. Our staff as a result of this analysis drew the conclusion that this area would support a mixed use development as it's currently zoned and that it would fulfill the intent of that zoning, which is to serve the surrounding residential neighborhood. The criteria for approval is that the proposed rezoning would conform with the land use element of the Denton Plan 2030. The land use plan calls for mixed use in this area and the applicant is asking for a rezoning to residential and that the proposed rezoning would facilitate the adequate provision of public requirements and public convenience. We did mail out 27 public notices within 200 feet and 90 courtesy notices within 500 feet. To date we've received no responses in opposition or in favor. The staff as a result of the analysis that I just walked through with you did make an initial recommendation to deny this rezoning request. However, the Planning and Zoning Commission upon hearing it did recommend approval 7 to 0. I do believe that the applicant is here if you'd like to hear from them and I'll be happy to answer any questions. Any questions for staff before we open the public hearing? All right, thank you. We will now open the public hearing for agenda item 5D. We do have some cards. Those wishing to speak and then those wishing not to speak and then of course anybody's afford the opportunity to speak even if they didn't file a blue card. So I will call the cards. It looks like is it Justin Bond who's the applicant? If you will come down and state your name and address and your time will begin. Hi, good evening. Justin Bono, 9219 Arbor Trail Drive, Dallas, Texas. I am the manager of Astra Carmel LLC which is the owner of the property. I thank you, Mayor and council members for the opportunity to speak to you tonight. First let me say we've maintained a great relationship with staff through this process and have worked together in a very professional manner in moving to this point. And as will become evident in my comments, I feel we've developed a good partnership with the city to date. As first in background, our original zoning application for this property was made in July 2014 while the comp plan amendment was being drafted. Staff indicated at that time they would not support our request for rezone of the entire 41 acres until they knew what the outcome of the comp plan would be. We therefore as you may recall broke our zoning into two parcels to encourage staff support for our first phase as we were going to develop the project in two phases anyway. And we have always been forthcoming with our intent to re zone the rest of our property to NR6 at every opportunity. The adjacent 17 acres to the west, and I'll try to go to that map real quick, has already been rezoned to NR6, this area here. We've received final plan and construction plan approval. We're in the contract stage with development starting in the coming weeks on approximately 84 lots there. As pointed out in the staff report, the property and the surrounding 186 acres was originally planned and zoned for a high density master plan community which was later abandoned by the previous developer. Much of this prior zoning has already been rezoned to NR6 with staff, PNZ, and council approval as such to keep this remaining NRMU section in place is inconsistent with how this project is developed. And as you will likely hear tonight, inconsistent with where the residents would like to see this community go. In addition, many of you know that the city has already been engaged in the process of adding additional school zone crossings and a crossing guard along Pacras Page Road approaching Pecan Creek Elementary due to a couple of accidents with students and ongoing safety concerns. It is our concern that more dense development and/or commercial uses into that corridor would only exacerbate the student safety problem in that area. And for clarity, Pacras Page currently is a road that dead ends essentially into, I mean, other than being able to take a left of Swisher, dead ends into Pecan Creek Elementary here where this PD is shown. So all of your school traffic comes up and travels to Pecan Creek Elementary along Pacras Page in front of the neighborhood. The previous developer of this community did not have a positive relationship with the city or the homeowners. In the year that I have owned this property and have taken over the declerant role for the HOA, I worked hard to repair these relationships. Some notable items to understand are, one, we've committed to build an amenity center in the community which was long promised by the previous developer. This project is permitted and will be breaking ground in the coming weeks concurrent with the development of Phase 4A. Number two, we've already donated the right of way for our portion of Post Oak Boulevard to the city even though we weren't required until the final plat of Phase 4B. So we've removed that uncertainty regarding that right of way attached to this zoning case. And finally, we've committed to build a sidewalk along Pac ras Page to assist with the safety concerns for children traveling to and from Pecan Creek Elementary. Finally, we held the required neighborhood meeting to discuss the zoning request and also discussed it at our annual HOA meeting in late May. We had 151 homeowner accounts represented at the HOA meeting and through a show of hands, it was unanimous that these homeowners preferred single- family residential use on this property versus a more dense development or commercial use. You have a copy of the minutes that I provided as evidence of this meeting and we were fortunate to have Councilman Rodin in attendance providing a city update as well so he can comment on that as well. I'm hopeful you'll take all this information into account in making your decision here tonight. You've heard the homeowners' voice that they prefer continued single-family development on this site and driving from their community elsewhere for commercial services isn't the hardship that staff may have presented. I respectfully ask you consider all the factors presented here tonight, consider the unanimous approval of Planning and Zoning Commission and please approve this zoning request. I would be happy to answer any additional questions you may have. Thank you for your consideration. Thank you. I apologize for mispronouncing your name. And I have my engineer Rod Zilke here as well with some more technical questions. We have a question. Councilmember, we've got several questions. Councilmember Hawkins. Thank you, Mayor. Yeah, with this zoning change, how many homes could fit with that NR6? We're anticipating right at 100 homes on this 20 acres, so it really ends up being more like 5 acres as opposed to 6. Okay, thank you. Councilmember Rodin. Thank you, Mayor. I was fresh on council when I got drawn into an early homeowners' meeting association before you came involved in this process. And you're right. The dynamic of that community has drastically changed as a result of your commitment to continue development of that project. So I appreciate that. And I think there are better relations as a result. I did have a question, because what I'm hearing mostly, more so than the need for commercial things in that area, is the safety of students getting to and from Pecan Creek Elementary School because of lack of sidewalks on Poker's Page, bad intersections, and things like that. So you had mentioned some new sidewalk improvements on Pok er's Page. From where to where will be improved? I know there's some discussions within the city for some broader improvements even beyond our project, but we've committed to fund the portion adjacent to our project, which currently picks up right here at the corner of our property and goes all the way to what would be future post oak along our side of the street, which incidentally wasn't in our original construction plans as approved by the city, but we've agreed to go back and add that piece because it's important to the community. Thank you. Council Member Johnson. Thank you, Mayor. So if you're not successful in getting this rezoning, would you go and build a commercial project on this property today? No. In fact, I should have pointed that out. I should have pointed that out to PNZ as well. It's not likely given that today you're at the corner of a future post oak, which, you know, who knows when that's going to come. And, you know, Poker's Page, that, you know, dead ends into an elementary school that a commercial use is viable on that corner. So it's likely that we would look at, you know, frankly, some sort of multifamily use through special use permit, as you considered in one of your other cases, or possibly a senior living or some sort of alternative use allowed in our immediate. We don't feel that commercial use is viable in this, you know, on this corner today and not in a position to just sit on the property for years and years and years and wait for it to come by. I hope that answers your question. I would agree with that. So my next question is, in all your conversations about, you know, you've dedicated the right away, any indication of when post oak would be built? No. That would be a city street, I think. That is right, yeah. And I already mentioned, NRMU, I guess, would allow for multifamily. So and then my last question for you is, that's a PD down below it, and you may know more about that development than I do. It looks like that the number of lots per acre in that PD down below is looks the same to me as the NR6 that's adjacent to it. Do you know? Have you looked at that? They have mostly, I can just give you a plot width. I mean, I know that project pretty well. They have mainly 50 foot wide and 60 foot wide lots. All of ours are 50 foot wide, so ours is a little bit dens er, a little bit more dense. But although there are some, you know, town home lots in one of the previous phases on our side, but I think it's, I would say it's consistent, probably slightly less dense than our side. But certainly some of their uses would qualify under NR6. Okay. Thank you. Council Member Wasney. It sounds like the NR6 is totally consistent with everything around it. It also sounds like the homeowners who are already there and they've already invested want single family homes and not commercial. So gosh, I'm a believer in listening to the people who are already there and that carries a lot of weight. Any other questions for the applicant? Seeing none, thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you very much for your presentation. The next card we have is the Leo Miller. If you'll come down and state your name and address, your time will begin. Leo Miller, 3091 Swisher Road. Little history back when the earlier mobility plan had Lake view Boulevard going all the way up through to 380, I believe. When that got shut down, it all but forced the mobility plan to be post oak. We know that's coming. We desperately need it. I live on Swisher Road. Lots of traffic. We need to get that off of there. So this going to NR6 is the most expeditious way to getting post oak through. We fully support that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. We've got a few cards wishing not to speak. I'll read those. It looks like Margaret Lindsay, 3804 Cliffside Drive is in support. Mary L. Finley is in support. I support rezoning to NR6 for this particular agenda item. Bill Camp, 5100 Pebble Beach Trail is in support. Those are all the cards that I have, but this is a public hearing, so anybody else wishing to speak, please come down and state your name and address. Your time will begin. Anybody else wishing to speak on this agenda item 5, I believe D. Seeing none, we will now close the public hearing. Councilmember Hawkins. Thank you, Mayor. I move approval of item 5D. Councilmember Johnson. Thank you, Mayor. Before I second it, I just wanted to highlight I think this is a great example for us. We talked about another project earlier today where, you know, the development was planned. It didn't happen for whatever reason. Bank takes the project back. You got a new developer with a new project plan. I can tell you, I can't imagine. If Post Oak Drive was already there and all the way through , it would be one thing to think that you might be able to get some commercial on this site, but it's not. Don't know when it's going to be. And I don't really know, honestly, what kind of commercial you could get given the low traffic counts that would be there. So I think this is a good example of, okay, somebody inherited a zoning. We need to do what's right and best for it now, especially in this case, given that the property owner's other alternative would be to put something more dense on it than what they're asking for. So I'm going to second the motion. We have a motion and a second for agenda item 5D. Let's vote, please. Agenda item passes, 6-0. We're going to agenda item 5E, hold a public hearing and consider adoption of an ordinance of the City of Denton, Texas, amending permitted uses in sub-chapter 35.5 of the Denton Development Code to add crafted alcohol production to the use tables. Thank you, Mayor. I'm going to ask Amy Bissett, our Director of Planning and Development, if she'd present this last public hearing for the evening. Thank you, Amy. Thank you, Mayor and City Councilmembers. This is a public hearing to consider an addition to the Denton Development Code. This is not the right one. Let me get to it. There we go. Lots of bouncing around on the slides tonight. And this is a public hearing to consider an addition to the Denton Development Code to facilitate the ability for microbreweries to be considered in additional zoning districts in the City of Denton. Currently, microbreweries have been indicating to us that they have an interest in locating in our urban center in our downtown area near the university. And right now, today, we don't have a classification or a use definition for microbreweries. And so we would categorize them as being light manufacturing, which would certainly limit them to certain zoning districts within the City. And so the proposal is a staff-initiated proposal to add craft alcohol production to the list of uses in the Denton Development Code. To give you a little bit of history, in 2013, overall beer consumption decreased by 2 percent, but craft beer production increased by 18 percent. This has been a trend for several years now that is continuing. Microbreweries are different than larger-scale breweries. They tend to produce less than 15,000 barrels a day. They use more handcrafted traditional ingredients and are smaller production. And they're typically locally owned. Our staff took a look at 14 ordinances that contemplate microbreweries, including four in Texas, in order to analyze what codes are working in various cities and found the following, made the following observations. First of all, we learned that codes will differentiate between a brew pub and a microbrewery, which is a positive thing for us because we already have restaurants that would fit the definition of brew pub, which is essentially where brewing might be an accessory use that's just to fulfill a purpose of the restaurant itself. That most of the ordinances in place restricted productions to a certain set volume, somewhere between 4,000 and 20,000 barrels. Although there were some exceptions to that, some cities did not set a volume limit. And that microbreweries, generally speaking, are permitted by right in industrial districts. In the 14 cities that we looked at, they were either not permitted or permitted within SUP, a special use permit, a specific use permit in commercial and downtown districts. And today, we would currently classify a microbrewery as light manufacturing, which means it would not be permitted in our downtown area, not just downtown, but downtown is zone DCG and we have considerable DCG zoning across the city, including some along the I-35 corridor. It would be permitted if it was an accessory to a restaurant or retail use today, but not as a primary use. The proposal meets the following needs, that we would permit microbreweries downtown without allowing all light manufacturing. That was the other alternative, essentially, would be to change our zoning to allow for light manufacturing under certain conditions, but that would open up the downtown to a lot of different uses. And so we took this approach to specifically address micro breweries. We are proposing that we would require on-site consumption or retail sales, at least downtown in our DCG zoning district, and that it would maintain an appropriate scale for downtown and would not affect restaurants that brew beer as an accessory use. The following definitions are proposed. Number one, craft alcohol production, a business that primarily manufactures alcoholic beverage for wholesale distribution, but may also include on-site consumption and/or retail sales. Adding a definition for restaurant brew pub, a restaurant that also manufactures alcoholic beverages as an accessory use, primarily for on-site consumption and/or retail sales. We would propose the following limitations in our various zoning districts. Our downtown and university core zoning districts, we would propose that microbreweries not be permitted in our residential districts, DR1 and DR2, that they be permitted with a specific use permit in downtown commercial neighborhood, and permitted by right with a limitation in our downtown commercial general zoning district. That limitation would be that on-premises consumption and/ or retail sales would be required, and uses would be limited to no more than 10,000 square feet of gross floor area for production, bottling, packaging, storage, and other manufacturing-related activities. Specific use permit would be required for additional square footage above the 10,000 square feet. In rural areas, we would propose that microbreweries not be permitted in a rural residential area, but that they could be permitted in a rural commercial area with a specific use permit. In neighborhood centers, we would not propose that they be permitted in any neighborhood residential use area with the exception of neighborhood residential mixed use with a specific use permit. And in community mixed use areas, we would propose that they be permitted by right with the same limitation that we would place that it would be a maximum of 10,000 square feet unless they received a specific use permit. Regional mixed use centers, those that have residential zoning designations would not permit microbreweries. Residential center commercial neighborhood would with a specific use permit, and residential center commercial downtown would by right with the limitation proposed. In employment centers, we propose that they be permitted by right, and the same with industrial centers. How do we compare to a similar ordinance? I'm looking at side by side with the Dallas ordinance. Dallas sets the maximum square footage for a microbrewery at 10,000 feet. We would not set that maximum except in our downtown areas where it would be required to have a specific use permit if they wanted to have more than 10,000 square feet of manufacturing and production. It would be permitted by right in industrial zones, in downtown zones, permitted by right if under 10,000 square feet, and with a specific use permit if over 10,000 square feet. And we would additionally require that on-site consumption be a requirement. The Planning and Zoning Commission does recommend approval of this, and staff recommends approval as well. From an economic development standpoint, we know that a microbrewery, especially with on-site consumption as a component, can be a visitor draw and a shopping draw. It would be good for our downtown area and would be consistent with what we'd like to see more in our urban core, and so we do recommend approval . >>Councilmember Johnson. >>Thanks, Mayor. Well, first of all, this is great work on the staff's part because it's very, very clear here. I'm afraid I may have identified either a mistake on my part or a mistake in here, so I want to make sure I'm clear. It says require, we would require on-site consumption in DC G, right, downtown? >>And/or retail sales. >>And/or retail sales. >>That's correct. >>But in the definition in the ordinance, it says craft alcohol production, a business that primarily manufactures beverages for wholesale distribution but may also include on-site consumption, so I just want to make sure I'm clear. >>Right. >>What we're saying to them is you have to allow for on- site consumption or retail sales if you're in our downtown. >>That's correct. >>Right. >>The definition of microbrewery may or may not include retail or on-site consumption, but we would require it in the downtown core areas. >>So that means they can give it away. >>Correct. >>But they don't, so they don't have to sell it. They can give it away, but they have to have a place. So how do we define on-site consumption? Can that be one tap in a wall that one of their employees drinks every day before he leaves? Or do they have to have a tap room? Are we going, in other words, sometimes we define it has to be a certain percentage of the total square footage or whatever. I just want to make sure we're clear on what that means. >>I would venture to say that that would mean that it's open to the public. Some hours, so it wouldn't just be employee consumption. For example, it might be that there's a bar where you can go and buy beer, or it might be that you host a tour every Saturday and it's $7 to get in the front door and you get three tickets and can taste three beers. That would qualify as on-site consumption as well. >>Yeah, I mean, because I know a little bit about that business model. I mean, they're going to want that. They're going to want the tours. They're going to want the activity. Most of them, right? I'm just trying to, what I know you're driving at, I think what the team is driving at is if you're going to be in our downtown, we don't want you to just have a production facility. We want it to be something that creates activity and visit ation and those things. >>Right. That's what would make having a microbrewery downtown desirable if they were simply performing a manufacturing function that didn't attract visitors and shoppers into the facility, then that wouldn't necessarily be a desirable use downtown. >>So because we're using DCG as the primary, this is where it's allowed, right? Is that going to encompass all the D-Tip area pretty much? >>Yes, and considerably more than the D-Tip area. It also encompasses the Fry Street area and some other corridors along I-35. >>Okay. Okay, I'm good. Thank you. >>Councilmember Hawkins. >>Thank you, Mayor. Can you give me an example of RCCN zoning? I was trying to find that. I was hoping I could find it before, but it was one of the permitted uses, I think. It was like neighborhood something. >>Right. It's a regional commercial center neighborhood. And off the top of my head, I can't, but I might be able to rely on somebody on staff to do that. Mike Bell, senior planner. Mike is responsible for writing and researching this proposed code amendment. >>Okay, so RCCN, an example would be if you think about Loop 288 and I-35, the mall is RCCD on the west side of Loop 288, and on the east side, that shopping center is RCCN. Also on the south side where the old Albertsons was, that's also RCCN. >>Okay, thank you. >>That it? >>Yeah. >>Okay, all right. Councilmember Wasney. >>I have concerns about anything bigger than 10,000 feet. We talked about this in our earlier session based on trucks downtown, traffic downtown. It's already a problem. And anything larger than that. I know you're talking about 10,000 feet and SUP, special use permit. I see the SUPs as a slippery slope, and I would rather err on the side of caution and hold us at 10,000 feet as we move forward, test the waters, see how that works. We can always go back and amend this if we find a need that we need bigger, but I sure wouldn't want to take that leap right now. >>I think staff's approach or philosophy behind providing for an opportunity for over 10,000 feet with a specific use permit is that an SUP in order, would have to meet certain criteria in order to be approved. And so they would have to prove up essentially that the traffic wouldn't become an issue, the burden on the infrastructure wouldn't become an issue, and it would be handled on a case by case basis. I think there's also some concern with microbreweries investing downtown in a project that would be more expensive than going into an industrial area with the fear that if they were successful and needed to expand, then they would have to relocate in order to do so. That was essentially the approach that we took, because we felt like it allowed the City Council and Planning and Zoning Commission control on a case by case basis to make some exceptions to that 10,000 rule, provided that the applicant could show that it didn't burden the downtown area as a result. I understand where you're coming from. I just wanted to explain I think where we were, what our approach was in writing it. >>Councilmember Rhoads. >>Thank you, Mayor. I certainly want to commend staff for the creativity and the hard work put into this writing of this ordinance. I do also know that it was done in a speedily manner to help facilitate some conversations that's been going on in the community as it relates to this . I really appreciate the hard work and the time it took to do it. Go back to that slide that compared us with Dallas's ordinance. I think this is key to think, too, about an economic development aspect. What is attracting people to our downtown footprint, which has just about anything you can want within a walkable footprint, unlike any other area in the Metroplex. Anyone will tell you that. There's a lot of great places in Dallas, great places in Fort Worth, but you kind of have to keep going places to get all the stuff that you can get right here in downtown. I think our message to the microbrewery industry who's looking to locate or start up a place in the North Texas region is the story from this needs to be Denton is on the cutting edge of this, not only in terms of the type of ordinance that we're creating to attract you here, but we've got the space to do it that's going to put you in a better space than any other place in the Metroplex. To me, that's a key economic development thing that who knows what this will blossom into. We're not just talking about microbreweries from the beer perspective. They're all over the country now. Folks are getting the craft whiskey and craft wine making and things like that, and small little handcrafted outfits. I think this is exciting, and I think that's an important thing to highlight. We've written something that gives us an edge. Thanks. Any other questions for staff before we open the public hearing? Thank you. All right. Thank you. We will now open the public hearing. I have no cards, but this is a public hearing. Anybody wishing to speak on this agenda item, come on down, state your name and address, and your time will begin. My name is Doug Smith. I'm located at 1012 Shady Oaks Drive. I am co-owner of Audacity Brew House. We've been open for about nine months. I have about 10 years of experience in the brewing industry , mostly in other states, in Colorado and California, where this has done quite a bit . My biggest concern is going to be on the 10,000 square foot . I think you're inviting a very large brewery into your downtown area. I don't know how it compares to other industrial businesses you might be thinking about downtown, but 10,000 square feet, you can produce easily 15,000 barrels. That'll bring 10 to 12 trucks in every day to your facility . It's zoned light industrial because we have noise, we have smell, we run around the clock. My loudest things are going to be air compressors, vacuum compressors, boilers. We have the occasional explosion areas you have to worry about that I really don't think fit downtown. I do think there are options for it. I think brew pubs are perfect for downtown. I think something much smaller that doesn't have the 24/7 capabilities, doesn't have 10 to 12 trucks coming in every single day. I think putting limits on the barrelage would be smart because that's really what you're looking at here, less than the square footage, but actually what they can produce because that's what's going to create most of your issues. I love the economic aspect of this. I think we should have 20 craft breweries here in town. I think we need to do it right, however. It's a huge economic boost. With my experience and seeing what I've seen, the large ones need to be outside of downtown. The small ones deserve to be in there. It can be a brew pub. Brew pubs are great because they do have the food aspect mostly. I've also seen a brew bar where you're opening that retail or that on-premise consumption, but they have about 2,000, 3,000 square feet in the back, and they're just producing enough beer for them to be able to sell in that bar. There are a lot of options, but I have a pretty big concern with 10,000 square feet. I'm sure it makes a lot of sense for Dallas of six million people, but for Denton, I think that you're inviting a very large, noisy, smelly industry that really deserves to be in light industrial. That's why it's owned there. Those are my concerns. Thank you. We've got a couple of questions. Council Member Wasney. Thank you for your experience 10 years in the industry. If 10,000 is too big for downtown, what would your experience tell you that we should max out at down there? We're looking at a lot of square footage down here. As a brewer, you're always talking about barrelage. To me, 3,000 barrels is really what you'd be looking at max , which it's going to equate to 3,000 square foot. That's going to keep you in that range. Once you start getting above 5,000 square feet, you have the ability to really start producing product. It's hard because you can put in a 10,000 square foot brewery and only run during normal business hours and run a very small, quiet operation. I just know what you can do. I have done it. I started with 5,000 square feet, built to 10,000, then grown to 30,000 square feet. I've done all these breweries. I've been operations manager for these. I've brought trucks in all times of day and night. I've run air compressors and vacuum compressors all throughout the night. I love the brewing industry. I truly think we need another 20 breweries in here. I think it will be great economics for the city. I also love the downtown, and I want to come downtown and not have to smell the spank rain that is being left out because the farmer is going to pick it up in the morning. It's a big, dirty industry. It really deserves to be in light manufacturing. >> Okay. Pam Pro Tem Gregory. >> Thanks. How big is your brewing area at Audacity out there on Shady Oaks? >> So Audacity is just under a 5,000 square foot facility. We use about 1,500 of that for our taste room. So you can come in and have a pint. That's the on-site consumption they're talking about. We're not allowed to sell beer to go, but we do have t- shirts. That's the retail. So if you guys have questions of what she's trying to get at in a lot of this proposal, you can certainly come down and look. We're an example of what they're proposing, about half the size. >> So yours is 5,000 in back and 5,000 in front? >> No, 5,000 total, 1,500 up front, so about 3,500 in the back. And I have plans to produce 10,000 barrels there. We probably, in that facility, won't run around the clock, but we will run two shifts. And we're already bringing in two to three trucks a day right now. But we're in light manufacturing, so that's acceptable. >> So with the trucks coming in, do they have to come in at all hours? Is that required in order to do it, or can they come in? If you set a certain time period and said deliveries can only, and pick up can only be made between these hours and these hours, could you still do that and brew 5,000 barrels? >> So 5,000, yeah. What I'm saying is that at the capacity, what I could do with 10,000 square foot facility is produce enough beer that, no, I wouldn't be able to limit the hours. If I was, with this SUP here, if I was given this option, I could produce a facility far larger than I think what the planning is thinking. And at that point, no, I wouldn't be able to put restrictions on those trucks. I mean, you could put it on some, but you would have so much product coming in and out that it would be very difficult. And it's not just the trucks. You know, they don't need to come in at 2 a.m., you're right. But you'd end up producing thousands and thousands of pounds of something called spent grain. That's one of our biggest waste products. And we don't throw that away. We usually give that to farmers. So then that goes out and that's outside. It was waited for a day or two for a farmer to pick up. There's a lot of concerns. >> You give that to farmers? >> Yes, absolutely. It's a great symbiotic relationship with the craft brewing and farmers. We steal all the sugar out of the grain. We leave protein behind. The farmers use it as a protein supplement for their farmers. >> I know a farmer that wants to talk to you. >> All right. Any other questions? Councilmember Wasney? Is that a question? Yeah. >> [INAUDIBLE] >> Okay. We're -- yeah, stay on the public hearing. Yeah, if we may hold that. Yes, Councilmember Rodin. >> I apologize for not chiming in. Can I ask you a couple questions? And I appreciate you coming down and giving us your perspective. Do you have any sense of some of the other -- I mean, the concept of downtown breweries is taking -- it's growing across the country. Deep Allen Brewery, do you have a sense of their square footage or how many barrels are kicking out a day? >> I know they're larger than that. I also know that they went into a downtown area to revital ize it. I know they're in a much larger city. I would prefer to draw parallels to cities of similar size. I think if you look at Fort Collins, Colorado, it has a very similar population. It's a college town. And if you look at the very large breweries in that city, they're outside the downtown. And the ones that are in are either brew pubs, or like I said, a brew bar, where you're 2 to 3,000 square feet in the back producing enough beer, and they sell most of it on site. I think a good definition to draw is selling the majority of your product on site, usually brew pubs. That's what a definition is. It's not just the food, but that 51% of the sales of their alcohol is on site. And so that would keep them into a size range that would be , I would think, appropriate for a downtown needs. How do you think Deep Bellum, just because that's an example of some people have been to and see in their sizable brewery, I guess, how do you think they mitigate some of the concerns that you've raised in terms of the smell, or the noises, or the traffic concerns, and still be a part of, as you say, a revitalization project for an important area of town? So when I have been down to see them, I have not seen a lot of thriving business around them. So it would be my assumption that they simply don't have neighbors to annoy. We're much luckier up here in Denton. We have a very thriving downtown that do have neighbors to annoy. They are also, I believe, they're fairly well contained. I think they have walls on some of their property that contain a lot of that. And they also haven't maxed out their space. So I think part of the concern is not what someone would do , it's what somebody could do. And I think this leaves a lot of open definition. The fact that it's not specific to a brewery, it's specific , it says alcohol, craft alcohol in there. Distilleries have issues with explosions. And you put that in your factory, and it's an acceptable place. And obviously there's other codes to help stop that. But do we want that in our general downtown? And I know you guys are in light industrial areas, is that correct? But you back up to a neighborhood, it seems. Have you guys experienced any concerns from the neighborhood as it relates to what you're doing? Because in a sense, a neighborhood is more concerned than, say, a downtown commercial area. But have you guys, have you experienced any of those concerns there? Yeah, absolutely. You know, we were very careful when we chose our where to go because of the zoning. And we specifically looked at the light industrial because that's where we should be. And we still have concerns, right? There's some issues with residential being zoned next to it . We have not had the issues on the smell side, but certainly on the noise side. Luckily, our road is mostly industrial so that the trucks have not been an issue. Like I said, we're not to the size yet where we're bringing full trucks in a day. I do have massive concerns about where I'd ask you can go from there. So once we outgrow this building, I'd love to put in a 20, 000, 30,000 square foot building on that site. But I know how much noise that's going to make. And now that we know we have issues with residential, that 's something that I have to think. Now we're zoned correctly. This to me kind of takes it a step further and makes it even worse. Thank you. All right, any other questions? Yeah. Thank you. Just one more. You mentioned Fort Collins and you're probably talking about New Belgium Brewery up there. I'm from Colorado. So when they started, they started in the downtown area. Do you know or how did that story kind of go? New Belgium? My understanding is they started in someone's basement. I don't know what size they were when they moved to their current location. Their current location is within a fairly good proximity of the downtown. It's within a mile, but it is also very clearly not. And so if you know the area, you know that you have New Belgium, you have Odell's, you have Fort Collins Brewery. They're all kind of a mile to two mile outside of downtown. So great support system, which also know that they're not down there, that the trucks have other pathways to come. And even with all that, they're still a constant concern. So when I was up there, I sat on monthly meetings with transportation about how we bring our trucks from, you know, through residential if they had to, from the highway, how to get it to the breweries because there's a constant concern back and forth. And the breweries were the best part of that town. The time I was there, I saw it become the number one economic advantage we had over the outdoor activities. It was great for the Conventional Bureau and Visitors Bureau. It really is a great thing for the city. I think we need to look at a lot of ways to help encourage breweries coming in. But it is manufacturing and we can't get around that. I think we look at that retail side and it would be great to get off the train, come up from Dallas and be able to have a pint in the tasting room. But behind that tasting room, behind that is a manufacturing facility. Cool. Thank you. All right. Any other questions? All right. This is a public hearing. Anybody wishing to speak, please come down and state your name and address. Anybody wishing to speak? Please state your name and address and your time will begin . Hi. My name is Bobby Mullins. My address is 912 North Elm Street, here in Denton. I am one of the co-owners of Armadillo Ale Works, another brewery startup trying to get going here in Denton. Some of you may know we did produce beer at Deep Elm Brew ing Company briefly. So I have some experience working out of their facility. I've seen where they're growing, where they come from and where they're heading. I'm coming from an opposite point of view from the previous speaker because I've seen what some breweries can do. Like he said, you could do quite a bit of production out of a very small space. I think it's going to be tricky, depending on just the layout of the building. I challenge anyone to find a space bigger than 10,000 square feet on the downtown square. I don't think there's a space for a brewery to move into that's big. On top of that, in the downtown area, we have heavy manufacturing. We have Morrison Milling, we have concrete factories in the downtown area already. I do know that some of them are there. They've been grandfathered in or they have SUPs, but it is going, it is happening down here. They operate all hours of the night. I live downtown. I don't have any complaints with any noise or smells or anything like that. As far as noise and smell in regards to brewery, there are ways that you can remedy that or cut down on those smells and/or noises. There's things like grain silos that will help contain the spent grain, cut down on the smell that will be coming off of them. What else? I guess, do you all have any other questions? I've been in the business for seven years, worked at the largest craft brewery here in Texas, St. Arnold down in Houston. We did our brewing out of Deep Ellum in Dallas. I was there for two years, so I got a little bit of knowledge under my belt as well. - Councilmember Johnson. - Thank you, Mayor. Well, first of all, Bobby, I have mustache envy. - Thanks. - I appreciate your expertise, I mean, from both of you guys for coming down and lending that to us because obviously we're not in the business. My question I have for you is in terms of the other places that you've been and seen, because obviously you were contemplating a 10,000 foot production facility at another part of town, what is a realistic, given that we're talking about micro brewers, what is a realistic production? What is maximum humanly possible? What would you say would be realistic with a 10,000 foot facility, assuming that you had no outside storage? So all of your raw materials, inventory, spent goods, waste , et cetera, all had to be housed inside that 10,000 foot. What could you produce in a month? - Based on my experience, as well as talking with, I've talked to every single brewery in the state of Texas about this matter, and also just general research, I'm finding you'll be hard pressed to pass 15,000 barrels a year annually, which is the threshold that the Brewers Association of America puts at the top of the micro brewery category. - So if you're 1,100 barrels a month, how many trucks is that in a month? - Based on what I've seen, how many trucks a month or how many trucks a day, I'd say trucks a day, five. When I was at St. Arnold, we were running statewide and we had five trucks a day. - And then most of the microbrewers, you guys included, you 're delivering in vans, right? - We have one van currently. - Okay. Thank you. - Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. - So to be clear, you're speaking in favor of the ordinance as proposed? - Yes, yes. - All right. And to be clear, your favorite elementary school principal was who? - That was you. - Did you get that, Jennifer? - Council Member Oden. - Also to, again, appreciate all this perspective on this industry tonight. Is it, and it seems this way for any other industry, restaurants or entertainment or whatnot, that it seems to be more expensive to locate in the downtown area than it would be to locate somewhere else? Saying it clearly industrial. Is that the same for a microbrewery? - Almost definitely. The price per square foot is drastically higher in the downtown area versus a light industrial area. - So then what's the attraction for a microbrewery to want to, why should we head in this direction? Why would a microbrewery want to locate in the downtown area? Understanding the economics are weighed against them from the start. - I mean, I can't speak for every craft brewery. I can speak from our perspective. I think we would love to be in a downtown area, especially the Denton downtown area. Growing up here, I've seen how much the downtown area has grown and where it's headed, and we want to be a part of that. We want to help foster that community that's growing down here. And I think that just from back up a bit, when I was working at St. Arnold, I was at their original location before they expanded to their very large facility now. The community that gathered around them, and they were an industrial area at that original location, the community that gathered around them was amazing. And I kept thinking, this could happen in Denton. This could happen in Denton. And I was like, well, someone's got to do it. That's why I moved back, was to make it happen. So to be in the downtown area, to be where it's all happening right now, I think is critical. I think the, I forget who said it, I apologize, but the kind of that mindset and that community growth that craft breweries bring, I think that's in line with what the downtown area in Denton is doing right now. - All right, any other questions? Thank you very much. Thank you for your comments. This is a public hearing. Anybody else wishing to speak? Please come down and state your name and address. State your name and address and your time will begin. - My name's Scott Lindsay, 3402 Meadowlark Lane. I'm not the brewmaster. I'm not going to be as cool as the first two guys that went . I don't make the beer. I just, I wanted to come down to say thanks to Amy and all you guys. This is an awesome, awesome step. And I know from where we came in a year and a half ago, almost, running into some difficulties, not because of barriers that were put up in front of us, but because there was nothing there. We didn't know what to do. Nobody knew what to do. And this is, I think this would be great. I look at, I put myself in the shoes of someone who we want to get here. We want people to come up that train, get off and come and sit in the tap room and drink beer and dentin. And I think, imagine yourself looking at a map of all these breweries and there's stars on them when you're in Dallas and there's 25 stars. I want to go hit four or five of them. And then way up top, there's one by itself. That's not good for dentin. It's not. I think Doug said we should have 20. Maybe that's pushing it just a tiny bit. But definitely this is a good thing. We need this industry. It's a huge industry. It's bigger in other parts of the country than it is in Texas. And that's a shame. That's changing. And we need more of this here. And we need it in dentin. I'm tied to dentin now for sure. I love this place. When school here, this is where I want to live. And this is where I started my business. I love the town. And I think it's a really good thing for the town. This industry belongs here. It matches the demographics and the culture. And that's another thing about a brewery. A brewery is not just a place where beer is made. That's not really the definition anymore. It's a cultural member of the community. And it says so much to the people who live here. And it's something I think that everybody lives in dentin and could be proud of. I think the only concern here is just to make sure we do it right. I don't have -- like I said, I can't talk about how many trucks are going to come in a day or what's the right size, what's the right number. Maybe 10,000 is the right number. I'm not going to argue against it. But I just -- maybe a tiny bit of caution just to think about that. Because it is manufacturing. That being said, I think this is awesome to see how far we 've come since last May when we came to town and how quickly she's acted and her team have acted to take something that we weren't experienced with and we didn't have any experience with at all in this town and bring it to where we are today. And we're really, like I think Mr. Roden said, kind of cutting the edge and getting this industry going. So I want to say thank you to a lot of people. And I think this is an awesome thing. Just want to make sure we do it right. >> Thank you, Mr. Roden. >> Well, nobody else is asking you a question. So I don't want you to leave without -- >> I'm not as cool as the room master. >> But do you agree with what our founding father Benjamin Franklin said about beer? >> It's proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. >> There you go. >> So I drive around with a little bag of beer and I usually pour it for bartenders or bar owners for free. And not one of them has ever been pissed off about it. So it's always happy smiley faces so I can agree with that. >> Okay. Any other questions? All right. Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. >> You bet. So public hearing, anybody wishing to speak? Come down and state your name and address. Anybody else wishing to speak? All right. We're going to close the public hearing. Councilmember Johnson. >> Move approval of item 5E. >> Councilmember Hawkins. >> I'm going to second. >> Councilmember Bosney. >> I would caution council that I think we need more information before we pass an ordinance on this. With time brings clarity. I think we've -- thanks to some of our audience members and speakers, thank you. You brought up some issues and concerns that would certainly need to be in a city ordinance overseeing an industry like this in downtown. Issues like how many barrels, square footage, how many trucks, hours of trucks. We all just learned something tonight about spent grain, that it smells. It's going to be on the sidewalk. Well, farmers are going to bring a truck to come pick this stuff up. So now you have, you know, that other issue. If Fort Collins, because I know Colorado, it's a college town, a little bigger than we are, but I think if we cast the net out and look at a few other ordinances to see what they have in terms of protection for not just citizens , but for the business owners who have already invested in our downtown. And that brings up another question. Have we run this by some of our other business owners in downtown? Because you bring up some of these questions on smell, noise, trucks. You know, they have all their eggs in one basket and that's the business they own downtown. I'd sure like to hear from some of those businesses to have them weigh in. I think this is a bit of a rush. I also think we need to look at the difference between a microbrewery and a micro pub because I think in our brains, a lot of us are thinking the pub and not the actual semi-industrial microbrewery. So I would caution counsel, let's give ourselves just a little more time, collect some more facts and again, with time, it brings clarity. >> Thank you. Councilmember Hawkins. >> Thank you, Mayor. I just want to address Councilwoman Wasney's point. You will hear from the business owners downtown when the SU P is applied for because it will be a public hearing process. So it will be a notification of everybody around that area and in order for them to receive the SUP, it's going to have to come to City Hall here and everybody will have an opportunity to speak on that. So that's why I feel like I'm okay with it. >> Mayor Pro Tem. >> Well, you know, I've visited several breweries. Especially because I felt like I owed it to the city to do research. And even some distilleries when I was in Kentucky. So I think we ought to start working on micro distilleries, too. I did not notice any smells, but what I'm curious, Mr. Manager, we have some nuisance ordinances already that address odors. Can you review with us what that is as far as our code or maybe our City Attorney? I don't know who. >> Mr. Dalton, I couldn't do that right now. I'm sorry. I don't know the detail. But clearly we do have some nuisance ordinances that probably would apply, but I'd have to defer to the planning staff or the City Attorney. >> Just in general, we do have certainly some provisions in our code relating to nuisance and smell is one that is specified in our code. So that would be something that we would have to look at if an issue arose. >> Councilmember Johnson. Oh, no. Councilmember Wasney. >> So just so we're clear, Councilman Hawkins said that each of these would have an SUP. My understanding, if it's 10,000 or less, it doesn't require an SUP that it is permitted in downtown. >> Yes, that's correct. An SUP would be if it went over 10,000. >> Only if it went over 10,000. >> That's what I meant to say, yes. And I'm even a business owner downtown. If I didn't state it correctly, I apologize. So what I'm saying is if we pass this tonight, each and every microbrewery, if they're under 10,000 feet, they don't need an SUP. >> Right. I understand. >> Councilmember Johnson. >> Well, I made the motion. It sounded like, you know, what you're talking about, Kathleen, is we should table this is what I think you're saying. I've just contacted two people that I know of that are microbreweries and that are looking for locations in Denton, specifically want to be downtown because of the Taproom Act aspect of it. And I asked what's the minimum size that you need and how many barrels could you produce. I got 8 to 10,000 with one and 7 to 8,000 with another. And on the barrels produced, it tracked a lot with what Bobby said. I responded back to a couple and said, why? Why can't you produce more? One of them responded, talking about I've got to store everything inside. So I don't believe we would allow a microbrewer to put their spent grain on our public sidewalk at night. I think they're going to have to store it all inside, if I 'm correct, about the way ordinances are written. So they're going to have to store everything inside. They're going to have to keep that contained. So I think staff has done a good job of researching this. I'm very comfortable with it because I just don't think, given the hassle factor and the expense of having a very large production facility in a downtown, that somebody's going to seek to locate one down there. I think we're going to get the smaller microbreweries that want to be there because they want to have the Taproom. They want to have the pedestrian traffic. And if somebody's going to have a 20,000 foot production facility that's not really looking for that downtown vibe, I can tell you they can rent a building for half the money outside of the downtown is what they would spend in the downtown. So while I do appreciate the concerns and I think they're well thought out, I'm pretty comfortable with what we have in place now. And so I'm going to leave my original motion to stand. Vice-mem Rodin. I think this has been a fairly publicized discussion. I went through P&Z a couple weeks ago. Went through here. As someone who represents the downtown area, both the residents and the businesses, I know this has been in the public discussion in terms of a desired amenity as part of kind of that next step in the ecosystem that is the vibrancy of downtown. Traveled younger generation who go to a lot of other vibrant communities with downtown and see this and they come back to Denton and think here's a missing puzzle piece to Denton. So I think in terms of what I'm hearing from the feedback is representing this area of town both from the residential side who are living here in the downtown area and from the business side is this is going to be a great boon for this area. And so I feel confident as that representative in voting in favor of this. Mayor Pro Tem Gregory. You know there's some well traveled older citizens, Council man Rodin, that also think that we're missing this. I'm tired of your ageist comments. Even better. Okay. All right. We have a motion and a second on agenda item 5E. I believe that's what we're still on. Let's have a motion. We've got a motion and a second. Let's vote on the board. Passes five to one. We now come to our concluding items. I think it's agenda item 6A. Oh, do we have? Oh yeah. Is Miss Yeldell here? Yeah, I didn't think so. Okay. All right. So we now will go on to 6A, which is I think it's 6A. 7A, I'm sorry. Basically new business. Councilmember Johnson. Thank you, Mayor. I want to commend our economic development staff on its recruitment of all kinds of businesses to our city. I think the performance of economic development, Amy and her team has been phenomenal in the last couple of years, including the recruitment of technology businesses and specifically to our downtown. I was very troubled to learn as a -- in my personal experience this week after I bought a new building downtown to relocate our business to, that there is no high speed Internet available. Verizon is our only option. The building that I bought is directly behind Verizon's building on Oak Street, yet there is no high speed Internet available. I can't operate my business in the building I just bought, even though when we did our research it said that it was available. What I have found in the last couple of weeks in talking to a variety of folks is we're not the only people that's happened to. I can tell you when we bought and redeveloped the Texas building, it said that Fios was available. We leased spaces to tenants under that pretense only to find out that it wasn't and had to pay to get it there. So here's my big concern is here we are as a city, growing like crazy, all this great stuff going on. The president of this country was quoted in the paper last week in our paper stating that high speed Internet is no longer a luxury but a basic utility. I'm not in a high tech business, but I can operate without high speed Internet and I don't know any company that can anymore. And it's very, very disturbing to know that we have a partner, because it's the only available high speed Internet provider in our city, in our downtown for sure, who has made the decision to not spend another dime on infrastructure in our city. So great job recruiting people, Amy and your team, but now we have no place to put them because we can't deliver high speed Internet to a building that doesn't already have it. And so I know that we have a meeting. Councilmember Brodin has been championing this issue for a while, but I can tell you my personal experience, having experiences two weeks ago, having bought a building, having seen on the screen it said it was available, to buy the building, contact them to get it hooked up. And the solution that I have is you can pay us $3,800 and $ 1,200 a month on a 36-month contract to get half the speed of Fios. That's the only thing I can offer you. Is unacceptable in my opinion for a, what is a basic utility partner in our city. So I think it's time that we take action. We need to do something. And it can't be something that is a, let's meet and talk about it for a year or two, because we have people that are landing. And what's fascinating and saddening to me, I'm going to soap box down, I'm going to wrap it up here, is the two people that, the two companies that we have recruited in my business said, what do you mean? That's just like electricity. Right? So nobody even thought to ever check to see if it's available. So we're going to have to move quickly because we're about to find out as a council about businesses that we've worked hard to recruit and get here. They're getting ready to move in or break ground. And when they find out there's no high-speed internet available, it's a show stopper. So I would urge anybody from Verizon that's working at this time and watching this, call me. You haven't found time to call me back yet. Thank you. Councilmember Rodin. Thank you, Councilman or Mayor. Speaking of economic development, I really appreciated the conversation we had earlier today with the CVB and the Chamber about that. I thought it was just a good revisit of that partnership. And I think at the end of the day, it was a good celebration of kind of what the CVB is doing in our community and how that partnership works and getting to understand each other's perspectives a little bit. As I asked in that meeting, trying to understand that contract as it relates to another contract with the Chamber relating to an economic development position, I think, is kind of what it's relegated to. I think that kind of set the stage for let's have that conversation as well. I'd like to understand that. I know what our economic development team is doing and how hard they're working. On that, it's clued into what's happening from that side or even how the interaction works. I think let's follow that up with a discussion with that team as well to continue that conversation and wrap that up. Fantastic. Councilmember Hawkins. Thank you, Mayor. I know it was a couple weeks ago, but I just wanted to thank everybody in Denton who makes July 4th the day that it is here. I now have family that have come to town. I think it's four years in a row. And I think that we're getting a lot of tourism out of it. It starts with the float. Then there's multiple concerts. You can go to dance. You can go to the square. So many places to eat. We go home and we rest. Then we see one of the most amazing fireworks shows around this area. And we're just spoiled to live here. I mean, month after month, there's just events like this and just really proud to be here. So yay, Denton. So thank you. Great. Councilmember Wasney. The animal shelter operates under a contract. That contract will be up for renewal in September. It hires the vet and the vet tech and creates any number of structures out there. I just want the public to know that it is up for renewal in September. And I do want the council to review it in August before it 's up for renewal in September. All right. Great. Mayor Pro Tem. I think I heard it. I'm not sure if I heard it. Based on what you said, what Councilmember Johnson said, are we talking about doing some follow-up and investigation, asking staff to investigate city solutions to the to that utility issue downtown? May I respond? Oh, sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So our staff has been awesome in this already. I mean, that was the first call I made. Like, what are they saying? And then I got to hear the whole history. Our staff has been pushing and trying and everything they could possibly do, even to the tune of when we were redoing some of the streets downtown, saying just put the pipe in while we have the street open. You can pull the fiber later. Just put PVC pipe in the ground. And my understanding is that they wouldn't even do that. So I believe staff has been already discussing this and working on this. But I think the hope has been that our partner would respond. Right? I mean, that would be logical. Because obviously, Fios is a moneymaker. There's no -- you can read up on it. You can go do research publicly traded. You can find the data, I believe. The decision that has been made is not because our staff hasn't been trying to get them to respond. So my -- the reason I'm bringing this up is I think that's been played out. We've been trying. And unfortunately, they've not been willing. So I think it's time that we consider going another direction. But staff is definitely not at fault here. In fact, staff has been doing a yeoman's -- you weren't ins inuating that. I'm just letting you know they've been on it. It just hasn't been very public. But if -- my thought was if we're not getting any cooperation from the providers that we have in town, that -- I know that the city has run its own fiber optic cable. In some cases, I know that the school district has run some . I know the county has run some. And is it time for us to look at filling the void, if that 's necessary? And we might need to look at also if that means a charter amendment, if we're off providing a different type of utility than what we have been providing. I know that we had to do a charter amendment for our gas -- the possibility of providing gas in the industrial area. I think we should run it to 319 West Oak Street like next Tuesday and let's see if it works. Well, it's -- Wednesday will be fine. Okay. The other thing is I'm thinking about the survey that we had that we got the results on this afternoon. The two areas that our citizens said were the most important as far as quality of life or mobility and safety. And we've been doing a lot of work over the last several years to address mobility. Regarding public safety, I'm wondering if it's appropriate for us at some time in the next three to six months to schedule a work session to talk about whether or not it might be appropriate for us to form a council committee on public safety. We have a council committee on mobility. We have a council committee on the environment and audit, finance, and things like that. We assume sometimes that the quality of our police department is just a given and it's not. It's because of great staffing. And I almost hesitate to make this recommendation to even do this because things are going so well. I don't necessarily want the council to get involved and m uck stuff up. But on the other hand, because public safety is such an important issue to our business community and to our residents, do we want to consider the possibility of a council committee on public safety just to have that discussion and maybe council members can get back to the city manager if you think that that's appropriate to even have a discussion. I don't want to schedule it if there's no interest in that. But if there is interest, maybe to talk to the city manager and then we could schedule a work session on it. Okay. Thanks. I just had a couple. I wanted to get an update, maybe an informal staff report. I talked with a developer this week about they had looked at some zero-lot line homes, town homes, and that they were having difficulty trying to understand what the regulations were regarding alleyways and trash pickup. And so just needed an understanding of how that works. In some ways they were told you can only have three units in line with an alleyway. If you went to six, you got to have a dumpster. So just want to get into some understanding of what's going on with that because I certainly know that we've sort of had a desire to have some town home communities here in the city and what are the regulations regarding rear alleyways and trash pickup. I would like to have a work session on this Internet, high- speed Internet issue. Renting apartments, when I hear high-speed Internet, when I tell my people you've got Verizon and you've got Charter. So I don't know the difference between fiber optics. I know the difference. And if we need to come up with a solution or some options for some potential opportunities for the city to get into that, and it's not only honestly it's not only for businesses in downtown but it's also to parts of our community that are underserved with the Internet, which provides I think now a distinct disadvantage to families and to children. And so I think it's something we need to hit head on. So I'd like to have a work session to really just have a basic understanding of that issue to see where we go from there. I'm trying to think if there's I thought there was one other thing, but I'll probably think about it when I leave. Oh, Councilmember Hawkins. Mayor, I apologize. I forgot one. Could we get an informal staff report, please? I got a phone call this past week from an elderly person who's on a fixed income and they do a very minimal amount of trash. They produce a very, very minimal amount of trash. And every time they see their utility bill, there's that $ 28 charge on it. And this person was just in tears and she was saying how just how money is so tight, you know, she probably could put out the trash once every six weeks if she needed to. And I just wanted to know if there's any program that's available for people like that or just to understand the collection fees and that sort of thing. That'd be great. All right. I believe that concludes our agenda. So we will now stand adjourned.