Jul 15, 2014 City Council on 2014-07-15 1:00 PM
July 15, 2014 City Council
Full Transcript
agenda item number two request for clarification on the
agenda items listed
on the agenda for July 15 2014 yes mr. city manager mr.
mayor I would like to ask the
council we need to pull item number BB consent agenda item
number double B
which is essentially the last consent agenda item has to do
with with dark and we'll bring that back to council by the
later time
okay we do have some discussion about that in closed
session okay any other
clarifications I had one let me get it was on the the bid
for the airport taxiway
at the question is just just wanted to just check on the
the bid price just sort
of get a little information on that bid price per square
yard who would ain't who
would well Quentin Hicks is our director of aviation and or
mr. springer both
eager to respond to your question this is an item that was
bid out earlier and
awarded by council so we have a set unit price but the
agreement was any
individual project over 250,000 would come back to the
council for approval so
this is the one with Floyd Smith concrete right okay so
when you say
earlier was awarded by council that's just to do miscell
aneous concrete work is
that right just around this entire city not specifically
for the airport not
specifically for any any project just set amounts in terms
of price okay unit
and then when we do a specific project if it's larger than
250,000 we come back
to the council for approval right and that was my question
and that is I
believe and maybe I was I'm not correct but when I was
looking at the bids it
was $47 a square yard I think is what is that am I correct
on that right okay okay
and is that do we know that that's comparable to 8-inch I'm
just really
familiar with you know residential and flat work which is
four and five inches
which is considerably less than that so is that comparable
to with other projects
that are requiring 8-inch concrete paving yes sir yes yes
sir that price
is comparable with other installations of 8-inch concrete
and that price
includes the of course the concrete the reinforcement and
the labor so it's all
rolled into that that okay all right okay thank you any
other questions or
requests for clarification on the agenda items seen one
clarification for the
council we we don't have posted as a proclamation the pro
clamation for David
Barrow and it just was sort of a an oversight for the for
the the posting so
what we're going to do what I'm going to do is either
probably before the
citizens comments citizens review I'm gonna go ahead and
pull the last agenda
item up so that we can do it under the auspices of that
agenda item which is
the new business because I think it's really important that
we do this for
this gentleman and recognize what what he's done for our
city and what he's
chronicled in his documentary so wanted to give you a heads
up on that and also
if it's the council's pleasure prior to the public meeting
on the hydraulic
fracturing ordinance we expect a long public hearing and so
I may decide to
give an opportunity prior to the opening of the public
hearing that if any
council members want to just have some comments or make
some statements prior
to that you certainly will have the ability to do that if
you don't you're
certainly not compelled to but I wanted to give an
opportunity if somebody
wanted to say a few things that they could so wanted to let
you guys know
about that all right then moving on to agenda item number
three work session
reports receive a report and hold discussion give staff
direction
regarding a development agreement per chat sub chapter 212.
172 of the Texas
local government code thank you very much yes I'm sorry yes
yes sir if you have a conflict that requires
recusal it does require that there will be no participation
in the item so that
would include discussion yes sir I'm gonna step out so I
just come get me
I'll be sure we'll go ahead and prepare an affidavit for
you to sign okay yeah
yeah we'll come get you thank you sir appreciate it thank
you guys okay thank
you mayor but as mr. Brian Lockie our director of planning
and development if
he would present this first work session item thank you
Brian
thank you city manager mayor members of the City Council
the request before you
was read into the record is for you to provide staff
direction on negotiating a
development agreement per sub chapter 212.172 of the Texas
local government
code providing for development regulations and an annex
ation schedule
for a parcel of property that's currently in the ETJ what
staff proposes with this
presentation is to give you some background information
present what we
feel are some advantages and disadvantages to this proposal
and seek
your direction and if directed staff will commence those
negotiations and at
a future date present for council's consideration the terms
and conditions
of that agreement so tonight we're not going to discuss the
actual agreement or
any specific terms it's whether or not really to even to
enter into this
discussion or this negotiation with the applicant so just
to give you a
framework of the location that's property is located on the
south south
of Ryan Road it's approximately eight eighty two point five
acres west of
Montecito Drive and east of Forest Ridge Drive here now
just to zoom in a little
closer to that property to give you a sense to the west is
this'll hill
subdivision to the north and west is Forest Ridge subdiv
ision immediately
north is the Montecito subdivision to the east is the Good
Samaritan senior
retirement community a little south east of that is Lake
Forest Park and then
immediately south is the Ryan Ranch subdivision so you can
see this area
outlined here in yellow is the property in question for
this evening the zoning
map for the property again is properties located within the
ETJ the property was
not included in the 2010 or 2013 annexation proceedings but
it is
surrounded by single-family development that's zoned in our
two in our MU in our
six and in our four the future land use map for this
property just calls us to
be a neighborhood center which is consistent with the
surrounding
properties and per section 212 172 of the Texas Local
Government Code the city
can enter into a development or into an agreement regarding
development for
property in the ETJ in that section of the Texas Local
Government Code outlines
nine areas that the council can consider when entering into
such an agreement and
I'll go over those nine items here the first one is just a
guarantee
continuation of the ETJ status of the land and its immunity
from annexation by
the municipality the second is to extend the municipalities
plan and authority
over the land by providing for a development plan be
prepared by the
landowner and approved by the city under which central
certain general uses in
the development of the land are authorized authorize
enforcement of land
use and development regulations that apply within city
limits authorized
enforcement by the municipality of certain municipal land
uses and
development regulations in the same manner as regulations
that are enforced
within the municipalities boundaries doubling also includes
zoning
authorized enforcement by the municipality of land use and
development
regulations other than those that apply within the
municipalities boundary as may
agree to by the by the landowner municipality so if there
is a an item
that is not addressed per city code in the DDC or other
rules or regulations
then that can be negotiated within the developers agreement
provide for
infrastructure for the land to allow for that development
now will include
streets and roads drainage land drainage water wastewater
and other utilities
authorize enforcement of environmental regulations again
anything that's not
covered in the code or any codes or regulations can be
authorized and allow
pursuant to developers agreement provide for annexation of
the land as a whole or
in parts and to provide for the terms of annexation if
annexation is agreed upon
by the parties so this could you could actually enter into
this agreement and
annexation not be a part it could authorize the annex it
could authorize
the development of the land but not stipulate a time frame
for actual
annexation and that land would be governed and controlled
by that
developers agreement specify the uses and development of
the land before and
after annexation if annexation is agreed and include other
lawful terms and
considerations the parties consider appropriate that's kind
of the catch-all
in case they weren't able to enumerate any specific item
that would fall under
this general category so those are the nine specific areas
that the Texas local
government called allows for a city to enter into an
agreement with a property
that's in the TGA that allow for its development within
certain specific
parameters now property does not have to be annexed as part
of this agreement
they can still remain out in the county upon adoption these
are a couple of
conceptual plans that were submitted by the applicant to
show how they envision
this property developing again these are just for
illustration purposes these
these are not in any way binding or anything but just to
give a sense of
what's being proposed on the property now the property is
split north to south
by hundred-year floodplain which is shown here there is an
active gas well on the
site which is shown here believe this is a an Endeavor gas
well it does have one
active gas well that is producing on this site right now
there is connectivity
proposed to Thistle Hill subdivision to the west another
access is proposed to
the south I'm sorry on the north to Ryan Road and then on
this conceptual plan
there's another access proposed on the other side of the
floodplain with a
connection here into the Good Samaritan our retirement
community and these are
all single-family homes this is just one conceptual plan
again conceptual only
that the applicant has forwarded to staff the second
conceptual plan is has
the same layout here on the western portion but the eastern
portion is
proposed to be zoned or developed in this case to NRMU 12
and it's my belief
that the NRMU 12 would allow for more development similar
to what you see over
here in Good Samaritan the Good Samaritan development yes
yes sorry could
you I can't tell the distance from the the it looks like we
're measuring from
the gas wellhead yeah that's just property edge and could
you tell me what
that distance is that's 250 feet that's shown here what is
the plat for that gas
drilling site the plat unfortunately is one of one of those
plots that was
approved a long time ago a number of years ago that we're
still trying to
locate we don't have a gas well plat that shows the actual
boundaries what
we were what we've been operating off and we've asked and
asked the applicant
if the owner the landowner has a plat of some kind but we
don't show we don't
have a record of a platform and the developer has not been
able to provide
us with a plant we have not received one as yet okay thank
you so this NRMU 12
would allow for development consistent with what you'll
find over here in the
Good Samaritan property to the east Brian oh go ahead no
you're fine you'll
probably answer it later on okay now as I stated that the
developers agreement
with would allow for the development of this property
outside of any annexation
or zoning so I felt it important that we discussed briefly
what's our current
process for annexation and development of properties that
we followed in 2010
that we followed 2013 and it's been really consistent with
how we've annexed
and rezone most I would say 99.9% of the properties in the
city I don't say 100%
because I haven't been there all that time so there may be
something that
went on prior to that but it's been my experience that this
is the process that
we followed an applicant petitions the city for annexation
which is generally
approximately a four-month process of longer that includes
a draft service
plan city issues a notice to intent to annex and then we
have the public
hearings in the public readings of the ordinance to adopt
the annex the
property at which point the applicant can then return and
then request the
initial zoning of that property we look at the
comprehensive plan we look at the
adjacent properties the surrounding property to see what's
what's consistent
so we can better understand and identify what are those
land uses and what's the
most appropriate zoning for that property taken into
consideration the
surrounding property is as a whole then the third part is
the actual development
process and that includes planning now the city has
planning authority in
division one of the ETJ so it doesn't preclude planning
would not be
eliminated in any way by this property annexing to the city
or remaining in the
county for development we still have that planning
authority we would not
have land use control if it were to develop in the in the
county for the
developers agreement essentially we'd have a developers
agreement that would
be signed and agreed upon adopted by the applicant by the
city we have a
development process essentially where platting would begin
and then if it were
stipulated within the agreement then there would be some
some type of
voluntary annexation process which will follow the same
plan and process and then
if the initial zoning was requested in there we'd also have
the public hearings
for that rezoning now these are all these would have to be
terms and
conditions called out in the agreement okay because any
type of an agreement
would supersede what's required by the code so we would
have to we'd have to
look at this from the standpoint of not just our process
but the actual
involvement from the city from the adjacent property owners
and from
any type of neighborhood input and considering whether or
not to proceed
with this type of an agreement or not I felt it important
that we discuss what
what are the advantages to this process versus the
disadvantages and I guess it
depends on your perspective but from the city standpoint
there are there are
advantages there are disadvantages and I'll just go through
each of these for
for our discussion now some of the advantages obviously for
for the city
and for the developers we were able to apply zoning and
land use land
development regulations in the ETJ where none exists and
where we have some
control over development this would include the land use
the density gas will
setbacks etc we'd be able to stipulate some of these
conditions it would also
lessen the opportunity for non-conforming land uses if
something
else was proposed that we could then negotiate what that
final use of final
outcome of that property and how it will be developed that
provides for annexation
with a similar simpler process than if annexed after
development so in other
words we call out when that property would be annexed it
will be in a
voluntary basis and we understand and know exactly when
that property will come
into the city provides the developer with some assurance
and predictability so
that they're aware of what they're able to do and in what
time frame and what
their requirements are what their requirements will be and
it allows the
city to permit and conduct building inspections of those
homes I don't know
if you're aware but there has been some situations out
along the 380 corridor
were some communities were developed not in accordance with
the International
Building Code there have been some questions on some of
those construction
practices but those were not constructed in accordance with
the International
Building Code now some of the disadvantages it reduces the
public
hearings that would separate that would be separate for
annexation and rezoning
and thereby reduce the public input this agreement would
essentially supersede
that process or short-circuited I guess and the approval of
that agreement will
probably call out the zoning land uses which typically are
discussed openly
during the public hearing process with those items
specified in the agreement
there would not be any need or any requirement for public
hearing process
as part of the adoption of this other than the approval of
the agreement
because there's no little because there's little to no
public input then
the development rights are established again without any
extensive involvement
by the community by the public to weigh in on any land use
or any other issues
or concerns on on those two points and this is perhaps even
a legal or at least
procedural question when this agreement gets drafted it
would come before the
council for a vote would that be a public hearing
associated with with that
just a item for individual consideration
any other contractor and what what ability does the city
have to go above
and beyond it in other words if we wanted to go through
what would typically
be required for a rezoning in terms of notification a
public hearing because
it's something council desired as part of that process
leading up to the
agreeing agreement being approved by the council could we
do that is it possible
if we wanted to take on that expense and procedure to do
that on their own right
yes sir the the law would not require a public hearing
under these circumstances
however if the council chose to conduct a courtesy public
hearing and wanted to
put forth some some notice and allow people to come forward
and make comment
we are not barred from doing that kind of public hearing it
's just that it has
no legal requirement requirement or impact okay thank you
on that same point
my note is can we construct the agreement in a way that
would provide
for the kind of regular public input and public hearings
that we normally would
have I mean that property is surrounded almost 380 degrees
by by property that
is part of the city of them and there's a small strip I
believe it's about 60
feet in length that that keeps it from being completely
surrounded by by
property within our city limits so could we construct the
agreement in a way that
would provide for or require the public hearing well the
the it's a an issue
maybe of feathering apart the substantive part of the
contractual
provisions from the procedural part of the public hearings
which again not
required by law but that the council could choose to do as
a matter of
courtesy as it concerns what would be allowed to go into
the development
agreement that is set forth with some specificity in state
law and I think we
would need to track that pretty closely so I think that
would be an issue that
would stand apart that process and procedure would be
something it would be
within our inherent cognizance just as a matter of courtesy
that not miss it
would not necessarily and it might not be appropriate we
might need to look at
that a little more closely as far as putting that in the
agreement I think
what I heard you say was no that's a long way to say no any
other questions
I've got it just a couple on as far as I guess I'm
struggling with something and
that is we just went through primarily a couple years ago
of an extensive
annexation of donut holes all right I'm not quite sure this
one was missed it's
not a donut hole per se right but it's a it's a large piece
of vacant land that's
in one of the fastest growing portions of our city which is
that that southern
portion district for and I'm not sure why it's not in the
city limits that's
just sort of a rhetorical question I guess my concern with
this development
agreement is just that I mean if we're going to build into
the development
agreement all of these safeguards of our city codes and
regulations then is it
and this may be I may be preempted by the city attorney
here but I guess you
know part of the discussion for me is is this a property
that you know we want to
annex into the city and if so what are the what are the
procedures for that we
can discuss that and I think we've got a post-it post
session so what I'm hearing
you say is we could we could draft the development
agreement such that may may
provide all these protections and correct me if I'm wrong
but if if it is
being if it's the development agreement route well then we
saw that gas well
which was 250 feet so if it's if we're in a development
agreement we could say
we want that to be larger I mean we're not we're not
necessarily subjected to
if we're not going the annexation route and being in the
city but my concern
with this is is the the lack of potential public input on
this especially
just anywhere in the city but you've got a large
residential neighborhood around
there and I know that in our four is surrounding that
neighborhood but I guess
too you know we've we've all talked about as a policy goal
trying to you
know increase the stock of our larger homes and is in our
four a zoning
classification that meets that goal or that it helps in
achieving that goal and
I don't know the answer to that question very well maybe
but when I look at this
map which part is not which part is outside the city and
you are you able to
point this ball of it but what what keep what keeps what
keeps it from you said
it's surrounded by three sides from the city is that what
you're saying aside
from this little leg here that's this is a TG right this is
the piece here that
that is not in the city I mean I saw out of the city but it
's not it's it's it's
okay yeah all right this whole parcel is yeah it's out that
's right the piece
that doesn't cause it to be a hundred percent surrounded by
suffice yes okay
all right okay all right yes you know I said that but I'm
looking at the map
more closely now there is a road that connects Thistle Hill
and Ryan Ranch
subdivisions and I believe that road is in the city it's
got Creekdale yes I
know yes yes it was in my elementary school attendance not
the one that I
attend sure so isn't is that property completely surrounded
by a city if this
is this is city right away then it would be surrounded by
the city yes there
would be the city right away would just break right so it's
a doughnut hope of
these two yes Councilmember Rhoads help me understand this
from another
perspective and that would be what are they able to do
currently without this
agreement without annexation they could develop on this
property according to
what standards well there are no there are no standards
that I'm aware of in
the county yes so it would be key would be killing
authority we would have would
be the platyplatic authority that's correct so they could
do that without
public input without any input from us the citizens or
anything as it stands
now so in light of that I guess you just gave us a list I
guess you didn't even
get through them all but maybe you can but I have I have
this question too and
that's advantages and disadvantages from the city
perspective I'm trying to
understand what the advantages are from the developers
perspective of going this
route versus just developing it as is outside of the city
purview I think the
biggest advantage for the for the applicant in the
situation such as this
is the assurance and predictability that they get the
zoning that they want and
can develop it in the manner that they want to typically in
these agreements
you'll find that they'll call out density they may even go
as far as to
define the number of units that they can develop housing
sizes you know all of
these things can be contained within a developer's
agreement so with having that
in hand they don't have to go through the annexation
process then apply again
for the rezoning and then be subject to public input and
possibly it being
denied you know they can you can actually go through you
you have that in
hand before even annexing to the city so all this is under
the assumption that
the city is interested in annexing this property and they
want to get ahead of
that annexation process I don't know if it's get
necessarily getting ahead or
at least getting what getting the I guess the proper terms
and conditions
that are necessary for them to develop the property yes Joe
no no it how do
the city services work if this property is not annexed and
he just develops it
are we still how does that process work well any any
services that we have I
mean we wouldn't be supplying those services to I mean if
we have utilities
and streets that doesn't that's not going to change
anything is whether or
not or how they connect to those utilities I mean we this
covers our
whole CCN area so they would still be they'd still probably
connect all those
utilities and infrastructure okay you talked about one of
the advantages is
provides a developer with assurance and predictability well
what Councilmember
Rhodes just pointed out that if it's not an axed if we don
't have a developers
agreement that they don't they don't have to subscribe to
any I mean they do
whatever they want out there pending platting which was
under our control in
any county restrictions I mean they could put they can make
it as dense as
they want they could make it as as sparse as they wanted so
this is and
that's a great question that's a great question what is the
advantage of doing
this with the city contractually as do and still wanting to
be annexed or going
through the annex process annexation process and then
wanting and then being
subject to the normal city codes and regulations which it's
because you can
control it right you can control it there's no really I
mean the only
procedures that would be prescribed procedures would be
those that you agree
to not that are within our city code I think the better way
best way of saying
that I can imagine is minimizing the risk yeah that that
may arise through
the processes and procedures that a developer would have to
complete in
order to develop the site okay you know they sure you have
that in hand with the
agreement yeah exactly I mean they there there there is no
they they control
almost a hundred percent of the risk except for whatever is
the reason they
want to enter into this development agreement to begin with
and be annexed
there are not sure exactly what those things are except
what we're talking
about so there's not our developer and engineers not not
here but my my no my
the city development engineer is is that's to deal with the
the number of
units in our ability to serve those number of units I mean
that would still
be that's part of the planning process so it's they wouldn
't have the ability
to just to develop any number of units I mean it would
still be based on our
ability to serve the amount of infrastructure that we have
available
for that property you mean if it's if there's no I mean if
yeah if there's no
agreement that you're talking about sewer capacity water
capacity absolutely
you're not talking about fire police protection or anything
like that okay
yes it's part of the Ryan property yes
yes there are there about just from an observation even on
this one here you
can see that there's two lots to the one lot in this hill
but I think it's good I
think it's probably consistent with the NR in our for some
signing I would be
uncomfortable approaching this with a public here and those
are considerably
larger in the surrounding area and my past experience has
been that those
people want to weigh in on such issues and I would think it
would be most
appropriate to have such a system that allows them to weigh
in on this on this
situation whether we gave the if we want to go to the
developer bring the ground
yes no thank you I've got a question about that last
advantage point it where it says allows the city to permit
and conduct a
building inspection of homes I have a friend who built a
home out in out in
the city ETJ I was out visiting the house on a Saturday and
interestingly
enough a city inspector on a Saturday he's not he's got a
second job and he's
inspecting that home for the county and as I visited with
him he said basically
the county has adopted the same building standards that the
city has or was I not
paying attention and that's not what he said are the
building standards
basically the same because it appears that it could be that
the inspectors are
the same some of some of the standards I mean there are
several different
building building codes it depends on which code that's
applicable I'd have to
confirm with the county if they've adopted all of the I
guess the family of
codes that we have with building fire plumbing you know all
of those same codes so the
answer is we don't know for sure if they've adopted them I
don't know for
sure at this moment but I can confirm that with the county
yes okay thank you
so continuing on then on the disadvantages and the second
to the
last disadvantage the agreement may authorize regulations
that are less
stringent so if we have a say a setback that calls for a 10
-foot that could be
reduced say to five feet eight feet for example and then
the proposed land uses
may not necessarily align with the comprehensive plan
ideally they would you
know if it's a residential area if it's an area proposed
for residential
development commercial development would be frowned upon or
at least that would
be taken into consideration when adopting a plan or
development agreement
such as this so that could be a perceived disadvantage so
that concludes
my presentation and I'll be happy to stand for any other
questions
Councilmember Rhoads. On the previous slide if you wouldn't
mind going back so those last
two at least we'd at least be able to say that those are in
our control because
if what is being proposed by the developer doesn't align
with comprehensive
plan in a way that makes us feel uncomfortable we could
either give a
reproposal and say here's what we think it ought to be or
just deny it all
together correct so so it's a disadvantage in a certain
sense right
at the end of the day we're gonna be able to say yes or no
to that's that's
right okay yes thank you as the developer expressed that he
would post
where the gas well was on is it the deed I think is in
similar developments he's
the developer has been consistent with subdivisions that
they've previously
done where they've provided that notification I don't
believe that this
will be any different okay
any other question what are you needing direction of
direction from you on
whether or not to proceed with this negotiators or at least
begin the
negotiation process for developers agreement okay I think I
would like to
discuss in closed session annexation before I answer that I
'm if I had to
answer today I would not be in a I would not support a
developers agreement I
think if we're gonna do this let's keep it clean the time
frame is about the
same it looked like from at least what your time frame set
up there and it
just it just keeps it clean I mean and it's this is was
missed and it's an
important part of our city and so I just I'm more open and
more in favor of just
going through the regulatory processes to take care of that
's just me but I'd
like to talk about it in closed session a little bit more
yes question because
I'd rather had this question in open in the event of a
developers agreement so
we establish the developers agreement and then they go
forth and go through
the annexation process get it zoned at what point then does
the annexation or
the developers agreement disappear I mean if you if once
you have it annexed
and you have it zoned unless there are some unless there
are differences
between those what happens to those is the developers
agreement in perpetuity
sort of work I'll do my best legal impersonation yeah that
's my fault I'm
sorry I missed the question Aaron Lee al is here did you
you picked it up I'll
let you step up and help sorry it really depends on what
the final condition or
terms in the agreement is if there are terms that are
specific to the
development that are contrary to what's in our in the area
DDC then upon
annexation I mean the agreement would then expire but you
would have
non-conforming provisions or applications of this
development for
example with Brian use setbacks for example we went to five
foot they would
they would be a non-conforming setback in the case okay
they would be but but at
that at that at the point of annexation and zoning our
regulations come into
play so if they make a change after that that is something
that we would ensure
in the agreement would it would actually have that that the
agreement would
terminate on annexation okay and so then if any further
development was going to
go on and have to be the 10-foot setback for example that's
one thing unless they
apply for a variance sure unless they apply for a bear okay
thank you any other
questions comments okay so are we gonna wait till closed
session to formulate
direction all right you have your direction no thank you
thank you oh okay
yes yeah yeah and I'll read this caption slowly so Council
member Johnson will have
time to reenter the room we're on agenda item 3b receive
report hold a
discussion and give staff direction regarding project
recommendations from
the Citizens Bond Advisory Committee for the November 2014
bond election thank you
mayor Mr. Bond and I will. Assistant City Manager and I
will present this item for the consideration.
Thank you George mayor members of the council wanted to
spend a few minutes
today with you talking about the bond program as you know
we brought this
forward to you from the bond advisory committee back in
early June so one of
the purpose of this item is to give you another opportunity
to discuss the bond
package and then secondly to to spend some time talking
about the proposed
ballot and proposition language so I have a short
presentation which will help
facilitate that discussion as you may recall in November
2013 the council did
form the Citizens Bond Advisory Committee it was 51 members
strong there
were two chairpersons that was chaired by mr. Randy
Robinson and Tim Crouch the
committee met 12 times from December through May to discuss
projects proposed
by staff in the community there were also four public input
sessions that we
held with with the public to get their input on the
projects we also conducted
three tours of all the project sites and the projects that
we're looking at in
the community we also formed three subcommittees to look at
specific
service areas those were transportation and that included
transportation and
drainage activities public facilities and leisure services
the council and
their charge the committee requested that they focus on the
following
priorities existing facilities infrastructure drainage
improvements
and finally the downtown area and the council also
specifically requested that
they consider reconstructing fire stations three and four
as you know we're
currently underway with a reconstruction of station two so
they
requested that we look at stations three and four as well
but also the council
also requested that at least 12 million dollars be
identified for the
reconstruction of city streets that's in addition to what
was included in the
2012 bond program which is 20 million dollars for that
purpose and finally the
council requested that they provide some recommendations
for public art so the
committee came back with a recommendation of 98.175 million
that
would be for the November 2014 election the funding was
allocated in these areas
transportation 61.71 million drainage 8.545 million public
safety 16.565
million in parks 11.355 million I've also attached in your
your backup
materials exhibit one I believe it is which includes a
summary of all the
individual projects and that we discussed with the council
earlier in
June the program assumes up to a three cent tax rate
increase and that is based
on assuming that we will have a value increase of 8% in
this coming year that's
that's an estimate right now we'll have the actual praise
values on July 25th
so for these purposes we're assuming 8% and then 4% for
each year
after that is what we're assuming in terms of growth now
the actual values
will certainly be different than that but that's just what
we're assuming and
the tax rate impact will vary accordingly each year based
on those
values that we actually have the package it does also
include five hundred and
thirty five thousand dollars for public art now that is
included in that 98.175
million dollar total package that I mentioned to you 30,000
is related to
street improvements 325,000 is related to public safety
facilities and a hundred
eighty thousand dollars is related to park system
improvements and as you we
talked about with the council on June 3rd when we looked at
the individual
projects we tried to determine with the committee which
ones would be eligible
for public art funding and that's just part of that exhibit
one that you have
but the way that we'll we're proposing at least that these
be included on the
propositions and the ballot language that would be included
in those larger
subsets of activities so that the 30,000 for street
improvements does not
necessarily have to be related to that specific street that
's being reconstructed
but provided it's related some type of street improvement
in the city likewise
the public safety facilities provided that the public art
is spent on those
public safety some public safety facilities in the
community rather than
a specific fire station that we're reconstructing that's
allowable yes I'm
sorry Brian yes so I think you I think you just say this
but I want to clarify
so if I'm looking at the exhibit one the final
recommendations and ranking order
with the price tag attached to them yes you're saying that
these these amounts
are assumed in the totals of those particular projects
correct so for
instance the 325,000 related to public safety for instance
which one of these
lines is that tied into that would be a lines and I may not
have them numbered
here exactly but it's the second and third rows the 172 so
the hundred thousand
five hundred right that's that's a piece of it and then
there's another component
you spread it throughout each thing right relates to that
what we looked at
is try to identify essentially a vertical construction that
we're going
to have and if it if vertical construction would be
applicable to the
public art policy two percent of that get you that number
that's fine I just
wanted to understand how you account okay in here so that
that but the way it
would appear for the voters is that would be part of the
public safety
facilities 325,000 rather than that specific right thanks
that makes sense
yes I think you just answered that too and that will be
somehow represented on
the ballot if they're trying to find where public art money
is well the way
it would be in the proposition if you look at exhibits we
get the exact
exhibit for you exhibit three it includes the both the
proposed proposition and
ballot language the process I'm jumping ahead that's okay
the proposition
language does specifically mention how much is related to
public art
improvements the ballot language on other hand at least
what we're proposing
would just simply say in the case of streets for example
the issuance of
sixty one point seven million dollars for street
improvements
okay just wanted to call to your attention that the public
art policy and
what's stated in that policy and how this differs a little
bit from what was
approved by the council back in 2013 the policy states in
part that the council
will consider placing a standalone bond proposition on
future general purpose
capital improvement bond program elections that if approved
by the voters
will fund public art projects so the citizens bond advisory
committee
discussed this extensively we spent quite a bit of time on
it and both the
subcommittees and the committee as a whole the committee
recommended that
because of the size of the program at least in part because
of the size of the
program they didn't feel like it warranted a separate
proposition and
ballot item on the for the voters they felt like that the
public art pop
project should be included as part of each proposition that
's what's been
recommended to you I know that's what we discussed in early
June I just wanted
to make sure the council knew that does represent a
different approach than what
was contemplated in the policy that was approved earlier so
as we talked about a
moment ago we do have the both the proposition and the
ballot language is
in your backup again the purpose of this discussion is to
make sure the council
is comfortable with how we we've proposed that language and
the process
that we would use to get those approved as far as the
calendar goes and next
steps what we would propose is that we would have if the
council's in agreement
with us is that we'd have a public hearing on August 5th
get more public
input on that and then on August 12th the council would
consider calling the
election which would be held on November 4th and from that
period from August 12th
through November we would conduct a public education
campaign to make sure
all of the citizens knew exactly what's included in the
propositions and what's
being proposed for consideration yes so that concludes my
presentation I'll be
happy to answer any questions we've got marriage of
question I'm sure thank you
here I've been out of state for the last two weeks and I've
had spotty electronic
communications I remember seeing an email amongst the
hundreds and hundreds
of emails I've gotten on a different subject by the way and
it was an email I
believe it was a letter there was contained in there a
letter from
planning and zoning does it basically confirm what what the
bond committee said
or have are they making different recommendations could
somebody print
one of these out for me so I could read I'll be happy to do
that for you sir
essentially we took this forward to the planning and zoning
Commission on June
25th and we discussed the recommendations with that can
that
Commission they were very favorable towards what the bond
committee had put
together and recommended that that be approved but in
addition to that they
asked the council to consider additional funding for street
reconstruction
whether it's in this package or in future packages that we
that we look to
try to include more of that they just felt like in the memo
I believe the
state says they felt like that they street reconstruction
was was a crucial
part of economic development and how we develop the city
and they wanted to just
recommend that for to you for your consideration so it's it
's not that in
our city manager who has always is on top of things I asked
for something I
got it in less than three seconds thank you sir let's go on
record let's get
that in the minute so so they're not saying to change the
amounts that were
recommended by the by the but they would recommend they
recommend the package
has been forward but they would also recommend more for
street
reconstruction if the council was considering that they
also understand
that that would have a higher tax rate impact associated
with it as well okay
that's something we talked a lot about with the bond
advisory committee but the
committee felt like three cents was there where they wanted
to be that's the
only question yes I asked this last time and I just want to
get clarity on it
because the question still comes up in the community in
this real popular spray
park idea I was at the fundraiser for it the other night at
the Civic Center pool
and so there in in the exhibit one it still kind of has
this language of
possible hundred thousand dollar match yet the line item
calls out two hundred
thousand dollars for it so the question that I think is
coming up in the
community is if this goes to the voters and gets approved
is that two hundred
thousand dollars enough to do what we need to do to be able
to put a splash
park is it contingent on them raising a hundred thousand
dollars or in other
words I think some folks want to know can they stop
fundraising assuming this
gets approved by the voters and will they still see a
splash park let me ask
Emerson for all to try to address that question I know he's
been looking at
that issue
it simply becomes a question of size if we receive two
hundred thousand dollars
we can build a splash park my splash pad with that funding
we've also talked
about looking at some depending on where the placement of
that splash park might
be that there might be some CBBG funding that we could
request in addition to the
funds that that committee has already raised we'll build
something that's just
a question of how big it is and how extensive it is in the
way I understand
these is I think from talking to you and some others in the
past is there's a
certain required infrastructure underground that goes into
all of these
correct and that there's potential to even add or subtract
or change the kind
of above-ground amenities once you get that bottom lays
that is correct okay so
you could kind of start at a certain level and then say
five years another
five hundred thousand dollars comes yeah we can design for
the future you bet
okay thank you very much I - read that letter from the PNZ
with the request for
additional money I couldn't I mean I couldn't ask that we
add that but I
will be honest when I read this list I just simply throw
this out for y'all's
amusement amazement and possible discussion there's some of
these things
in here that I would rather almost allocate to new road
construction I mean
when I read that letter and indicated how much we still
have the left to do
and I mentioned this briefly at the first time we looked at
this and that is
there's a couple of these items that it's just my own
personal opinion that I
think are probably meeting the need that the right now of
what they're intended
to do and so some of that money could be moved up to road
can road
reconstruction and one of them is the extension from Bonnie
Bray from
University Drive to Windsor which that is about okay where
is it is that's about
six point one million dollars the Moore Street expansion to
full collector
capacity is two point nine million dollars and I understand
that they want
that to be able to get to Mayhill once it's completed but
Mayhill is another
two or three years down the road so that's that's about
another almost nine
million there was and I know this won't be popular with
staff but the Rue Dell
expansion to Mingo Road of five point seven million dollars
it's about 14 or
15 million dollars that when I look at what we've been
doing and how these
particular roadways are operating now especially the one
from University to
Windsor on Bonnie Bray when we're that far behind with with
road reconstruction
I just think that I personally would like to see so I don't
want to change
projects or anything like that but when I look at the list
of project I think
could do we have a bigger need in my own mind than what
those projects represent
and there's gonna be various opinions on that but in my
opinion and I think
eventually and and I'm not gonna raise too much comment
about it now but I
think the two point four million dollars for the water park
we're gonna have to
begin to have some some discussion on that because the
contracts coming up I
think in about six years five or six years as far as the
bonds being paid off
and I know the school district is is beginning to you know
inquire about you
know how can we what can we do with that to help mitigate
some of the losses that
both of our governing bodies have experienced and so I
think that's a
discussion when we spent two and a half million dollars on
it that's gonna walk
us in to it for another so many years as far as dealing
with with with that asset
so I but that's not part of the list I just said so I'm
looking at you know 15
to 18 million dollars that I personally would like to see
move to road
reconstruction and that's my question on the bond language
the bond language has
one number and then it lists all these items which are all
parts of descriptions
of what these projects are but it's not specific so help me
understand how the
issuance of that bond money is tied specifically to I
understand there's
this chart but what legally if legally that those bond
expenditures are tied
to these specific projects and one of them being you know
is good example
about the splash part how do we do that and yeah well Greg
shaker is our bond
council and if I get too far off straight off subject he'll
make sure he
jumps in and corrects me but essentially the way the the
proposition reads in the
way the ballot language read is that we have up to sixty
one point seven
million dollars related for transportation improvements and
as long
as it's enumerated in the proposition it's covered by that
but what we're
going to be communicating to the voters what we've
communicated to the public
the committees that we've worked with the bond advisory
committee and so forth
is that we're planning to do this list of projects that we
have typically what
the city of Denton has done is we formed an oversight
committee after the bonds
are approved and any kind of deviation from this list would
go back through
the oversight committee for a recommendation back to the
council and
oversight committee has been typically constructed of sub
committee chairs or
members of that committee who would who would work through
those issues and try
to make a recommendation to us it's primarily there in case
prices of
construction change material changes not really to have a
wholesale change in the
purpose and design of the bond package so I think my
recommendation to the
council would be is if you're looking at having a different
mix of projects or
you want to change that now's the time to do that and then
then to educate the
citizens of what you're proposing to do with the bond funds
yes thank you mayor
so to that end what I want to make sure that I understand
is that we do have the
flexibility and so an example would be a a new employer
wants to come to town and
build a huge office on the north end of town off of 35 and
there's no sewer and
we look at the jobs and all the things there and we say you
know we want them
here and that's where they want to be do we have the
flexibility within this to
utilize transportation related funds or drainage related
funds if the council
in your in the advisory committee says yes that is a good
use of these funds do
we have that flexibility yes provided that it was something
that was
authorized in the proposition of one of those eligible uses
yes if it was
streets and it was part of the transportation package and
we took it
back through that process yes you do have that flexibility
thank you yes thank
you but if we were doing what the mayor suggested which was
keep the total
amount but but not so much in the park area if you're not
wanting to do the
improvements to waterworks Park are you not wanting to do
something else there
then the eleven point three five five million for parks
would be smaller and
the amount for transportation for streets well it says in
here on the bond
language streets that it would be larger yes is that
correct yeah if that's what
you want if that's what the council wanted to do for that
particular
project okay if it's within the street category it could be
it's the way the
read they read now it's fine but if you're changing between
the different
propositions and mr. Gregor that's correct you have to
reduce the parks and
add to the streets package okay thank you yes thank you if
we did just kind of
entertain PNC's recommendation if we did instead of a three
cent moved it to
three and a half cent are we can we do the math on that is
that am I figuring
like another 15 million I think it's roughly for every one
penny increase
it's about 20 million dollars so probably for a half cent I
'd have to get
the exact math but it's approximately 10 million and what
does that mean to the
average resident a one penny increase would mean about a $
16 a year increase
in property taxes on the average home value okay half a
penny about eight
dollars okay and those would be in addition to whatever we
've already
planned for the three cents one other question on the last
the last project on
the streets and you don't have what was not including you
know what missed the
cut but sure and so I might have to ask you do you have
that documentation of
what my and somebody from staff may know the last one is H
ickory Creek Road FM
2181 to River Pass there was another one that connected
something to is it 2499
once it gets finished somebody somebody help me what what
was that little there's
something that missed the cut that was right below it that
I don't recall that
rank and let's if Frank Payne may recall that yeah right I
think so yes you know
that's Frank Payne to address sure
I'm sure if I have that with me it was a Hickory Creek Road
from 2499 to 2181
right and that's going down beside the Kroger correct is
that the one and that
would tie all of Hickory Creek Road because right there's a
little jog and
it goes back in that neighborhood and there was I guess
when I looked at the
mobility plan and looked at the one that's been approved
and the one that
didn't make it it seemed like that the one that didn't make
it would seem to
cure more ills because it really because 2499 is going to
be a major thoroughfare
and that little intersection there at the Kroger so that
that's my only
concern is that if we have flexibility like that in other
words if if projects
that quote-unquote didn't make this list if somehow with
the passage of time and
we realized oh wait a minute this is a greater need than
what we had in when
this was formulated do we have that kind of do we have that
kind of is or is it
just we get this pot of money and we've got this as a
template we just do with
it whatever not we want to do but whatever no I think that
's your question
yes you do have that flexibility I think we just want to
have some clarity of
what projects are we trying to plan for this bond package
and communicate that
to the voters and then if something should change
circumstances should
change you do have some flexibility to do that okay well I
will tell you if I
had to have a priority I mean if nobody would agree with my
reallocation of some
of those funds I think those two projects the one at River
Pass and the
other one I looked at it that's one that I would certainly
strongly feel that
could be in fact I think that was staff was that staff
recommended it was not
staff's recommendation sorry Frank I thought I talked with
somebody on staff
about this you did talk to me about it it was it was on
there but it was not a
it was it was prioritized as our second we had eight it was
the second project
was 2181 to 2499 the third was 2181 to River Pass I believe
you and I discussed
Morse and yeah but you're saying that the the one I'm
speaking of was the
second priority for and then the one that's been proposed
in this last
spreadsheet was the one below that the third one one right
look yes okay all
right okay all right thank you yes Councilmember
Rodin well on your point of the the reallocation to up the
street funds
which I think certainly a good question and something for
us to look at given
the high priority a lot of people are putting on the need
for street
improvements in particular the next time we meet to talk
about this into August
5th is that also coincide with our first go at the budget I
'm assuming that the
first budget discussion will be July 31st we'll have it as
a half-day session
on that well I thank you I mean it seems like as we're
looking at what's being
proposed in terms of upping kind of street investment
outside of bond
funding and there seems to be a lot of existing possible
tools that we've
talked about the last couple years that probably is the
time for us to make
decision on and depending on what you're suggesting in
terms of other creative
options to increase that funding might impact some of this
so I guess my
suggestion is when we have that July 31st meeting to make
sure we bring out
highlight street issues so that we can come to our next
August 5th meeting on
this topic with the sense of where we would be if we kept
things that are
whether we ought to change things around but I think that'd
be helpful
we have a number of things with regard to what my budget
proposal will be with
regard to streets including some things we haven't had a
chance to talk about
yet and I think it's going to be good to note that because
I agree with you but
let's look at what we're going to budgetary wise but it's
been my
experience that most of the budget discussions regarding
streets have been
how do we improve the street maintenance fund which is for
ongoing maintenance
whereas this is for road reconstruction or new construction
which we really
don't really address in the budget I think that's why we've
used these bond
programs to sort of address that as a separate need than
with the maintenance
issue would typically as a yearly budgetary item but yeah
we might find
that we have some additional debt capacity surface in order
to do that okay
all right any other yes that's my run on the three projects
that mayor mentioned
the more Street Bonnie Gray and Riddell what is the
classification of those
would be could we lump that money up into the 24 million at
the top would
it still fall under arterial or would it be a different
classification of street
well I believe those each of those projects the mayor
mentioned other than
the water park were related to transportation so they could
be a
component of reconstruction not change the ballot language
the proposition
language we'd have to obviously change this on the list and
so forth but it
could be included in that if that's what you're suggesting
if I understand the
question yeah because we can prioritize of that it's a lot
easier to prioritize
on that big sum of 24 million as to whether these projects
should ever should
go forward or if there's other smaller projects so I think
we did have a list
of what they thought that 24 million might go for but that
is that's much
more fluid in in what may be needed in the future as far as
street
reconstruction then what having these projects listed
singularly if someone
sees this list and says well how come Bonnie Bray never got
redone out of that
bond package if it's lumped in with the other project it's
easier to move it
around yeah certainly I think if they intend is to use it
for reconstruction
that the easiest way to do that is just to show that pretty
explicitly to the
voters what we're planning to do now before I get a lot of
emails I'm not
saying that the water park should be removed just saying
that's for a
discussion are we planning when are you wanting to have
that discussion as far
as the funding on the wall well I mean I'm certainly open
to it now but I have
felt that that wasn't something that this body may be
entered interested in
entertaining on how we we spend that money and is that
something that we want
to that we want to do so we can we can include that
discussion absolutely I
guess my reaction to it is I I felt very good about the
overall proposal from the
bond committee and I want that group to feel enthusiastic
about it as we go to a
November ballot they're probably going to be some other
interesting items on
the November ballot that are going to create a lot of local
interest among
voters and I would like for this bond issue to pass and my
understanding is is
that the City Council doesn't get to do anything in the
bond election except
present facts and we can't we can't take a position or
campaign but those 51
members of the committee can and I want them to campaign
vigorously in favor of
this so I don't want to do anything to to set aside I would
be reluctant to set
aside their recommendations simply because I think that
that that we need
their support in this activity on the water park itself the
water park all
but one year of its existence and it was a cold summer in a
wet summer and we
actually are having some cold and wet days right now they
've they've always
operated in the black and the profits off of that have gone
to offset the
expenses of the natatorium and by adding to the water park
we're going to add to
the revenues that they make and we're going to take a
little bit of the
pressure off of the city budget to to on the operation of
the natatorium so I'm
I'm reluctant to to take that out simply because of what it
does for
supporting the natatorium and because it's a recommendation
of that of that
committee so that's that that's my reaction to it I think I
would be open
to a half cent more for roads if we felt like that that was
going to be passable
in November and again let me emphasize I wasn't saying to
take the water park out
I'm saying somewhere in the future we're going to have to
have a talk about the
whole organization out there for the very fact that you
just mentioned and and
I agree with you that I think that the first of all I'm
very pleased with the
way that this bond committee operated and the
recommendations that have come
forth but I don't feel that if I'm asking for a couple of
changes that
somehow that's going to make them less enthusiastic to to
go and I will tell
you the thing that to me will be the most difficult for
voters is if that tax
increase gets much above where it is now and I mean three
cents is still I mean
it's not much in the per household but I'm not sure always
like how that's
always measured on things well it's only going to be five
cents more two dollars
more something like that sometimes it's still the principal
but so no just to
clarify I'm not saying to remove it I'm saying that in we
're gonna have to have
that discussion sooner than later most likely yep yes but I
agree with you I
wanted more money to go towards roads too I really did I'm
not I don't know
what to take out yeah I don't know if the answer is a tax
increase either sure
I just wanted maybe it's a little both I don't know is the
bond committee gonna
have another are they have they not disbanded but are they
through with
their meetings they are through the meetings okay well I
mean is it possible
I mean it sounds like the one at least the ones that I've
talked about have
been transportation primarily is it is it possible to get
some some weigh-in as
far as some input from the Transportation Committee on that
I mean
are they able to to meet again before we consider this or
is that would that be
inappropriate or try to convene a meeting they've already
provided a
recommendation and if you'd like me to try to convene the
entire committee
again and discuss this issue no that's not necessary no
that's fine that's fine
I just I just based upon council members Gregory's response
I didn't want them to
think that it's somehow we were trying to change something
without their input
so if they're if they're okay with that that's fine if not
then I'm okay I will
tell you I mean the committee did discuss that extensively
we had a lot of
discussion not only in the Transportation stuff committee
but the
overall committee as well about what's the appropriate
level for streets and
for street reconstruction and they talked about those
issues recognizing
and there were some folks on the committee who really
wanted to do more
and there were others who tried to balance those with other
other needs in
it in the community so it's a tough issue they did talk
about it extensively
though but what we're talking about here is really just rec
lassifying money
instead of taking it to a specific project like University
Drive Bonnie
Bray to Windsor it's putting it in street reconstruction to
report so it's
not like we're going from category from different bond
proposition to bond
property we're still keeping it in the same family and it
still would be cheap
it's just would would it be against that specific project
right and that was
discussed too with a committee of how much for street
reconstruction should it
be 40 million should it be 30 million they landed on the 24
trying to have it
six million dollars per year with what we've already
approved in the 2012 bond
program but I guess according to that letter where's that
where's that letter
from PNC it's the backlog of streets yeah that according to
that letter it's
saying that after this with the 24 million we're still
short what 46 46 what
they include on that okay okay thanks yes it was Brandon
McCloskey
the chair of that particular subcommittee chair yes sir so
maybe
instead of everyone perhaps the next time we stand to
discuss this to reach
out perhaps ask him invite him to the meeting if he's
interested in and
dialoguing on this issue maybe he can give us some insight
into the thinking
of that subcommittee might be happy happy to ask anything
you'd like me to do we
can certainly bring him back we can break I can bring back
all the sub
committee chairs and the committee chairs to visit with you
be happy to
handle it any way you need to I mean I yes I was on that
subcommittee yes I
think what's unique about these situations I was on the
citizen bond
advisory committee for streets alone right where they're
you're just talking
about which streets and everybody's passionate about the
streets that that
impact them in this case you had three subcommittees well
when they come back
they're gonna be passionate about the work that they did
right so you're ended
up trying to you're trying to please everyone as best you
can right the
challenge with streets is we could use the whole 90 million
on streets and
probably not cover at all so it gets really complicated
because people say
well why isn't this street in it well because we're gonna
have to replace the
utilities underneath the street but that's not in this so I
can tell you
there was a lot of work Frank and the engineering group I
mean tons and tons
of work to to prioritize these things what I do appreciate
is that we do have
the flexibility I think we need to spend as much as we
think we can we can spend
on streets and and if we think a half cent more is pal
atable to the citizens
that I can tell you that if you convene that transformation
transportation
subcommittee again they would all say absolutely we could
use another 10 we
could use another 20 because there's some pretty major
roads that didn't make
the cut so you know I would just encourage us I don't know
that trying
to reallocate between makes any sense at this point because
there was a lot of
work that went into it and there a lot of negotiation you
know to getting
people comfortable with the total and how it all got divv
ied up and nobody you
know nobody leaves everybody doesn't leave happy everybody
leaves somewhat
satisfied probably after the negotiations over so but but
streets
have been ignored for a long time and we have to deal with
it so if it means we
need to we need to push for another half a cent you know I
think it'd be
interesting to get the input via Twitter or wherever you
social media
wherever he resides to get that input and see what the
citizens think okay
that's my ring right thank you mayor a few comments first
off on with regard to
the water works I would echo mr. Gregory's comments that's
been successful
and I what what as I understand what they're wanting to do
here is basically
add change up some things because it's it's just everybody
's it's a little old
and the other is add some items that would bring a new
market in into the
park which should make it even more profitable with regard
to to streets
particularly when it comes to the reconstruction portion
the 24 million we
didn't get here in any short period of time and we're not
going to get out of
this in any short period of time I I worry that we start
adding to this first
thing it does is it drives it over a hundred million which
is there now we
got a whole nother number to look at I think there's
probably a reason why we're
at 98 million it's the same reason we have 24,999 dollar
automobiles you know etc etc I don't think this the concept
is any different
and we could always go for more at a later point in fact
factually in the
depending on how the economy goes and how our revenue
stream comes in is going
to depend on the rate with which we release these bonds so
we could we could
put even more money on here but that doesn't mean we're
going to be able to
spend it that depends on a whole lot of other things
downstream so I don't really
think that we need to tamper with this a great deal with
regard to your issue
mayor of mobility improvement aspect of this there is it
appears to be a too
million dollar open window there it gives us some
flexibility and with all
the rest of these it seems that we've always had the
ability to go back to the
bond committee ask for changes as things come up this looks
good now but three
years from now you know how to ensure that the development
goes on somewhere
else changes places and then we're we're we're gonna eat oh
well we need another
road and this would wouldn't be the first time that's ever
been done because
we had the need and I think the public is recognizes that I
just question how
much we toy with what's on there and upset the committee
push it and maybe
the public okay thank you councilman yes Jim I think that
is a good point
there's some sticker shock there when you get over a
hundred million and even
that average increase bones over 50 bucks too so just I
hadn't thought about
that it's good point just want that good thanks any other
questions on this agenda
item make sure I understand the direction you'd like me to
come back for
a public hearing on August 5th yes anything other than that
at this point
with with small number of slides okay I'll make sure that
yes thank you all
right thank you appreciate your time you bet moving on to
agenda item 3c
receiver porthole discussion and give staff direction
regarding aesthetics
related to the 35 Express project thank you mayor mr. John
Cabral for city
manager at least initiate the first part of this discussion
thank you John thank
you George mayor and council members I'm here to talk to
you this afternoon about
35 Express project and bring you an update on a couple of
opportunities
that have been presented to us by a gel and text dot I've
got unfortunately
quite a few slides but a lot of them are just visual aid so
bear with me and we'll
go through get through as quickly as possible the proposals
that have been
given to us here recently address not just public art that
we've been
inquiring about but there's also some other aesthetic
opportunities that have
been brought forward to us including a swap that a gel
which is the the
contractor for the 35 Express project for text doc
regarding certain elements
and certain bridges and also I want to give you the latest
as to what the
public art committee is talking about back in 2011 NH TV
corporation was
hired by a text doc to develop some aesthetic design
guidelines those
guidelines were attached to your AIS report it's a thick
booklet they
involved numerous meetings and citizen input as well as
meetings with the
various cities up and down the corridor to determine what
the various design
elements were going to be they were going to make up the 35
Express project
which was ultimately bid out by text dot also back in 2011
between the months of
September October there were at least three work sessions
where count where
staff came to brief counsel on the latest of those
guidelines including
things like the color the texture bridge columns and other
enhancement
opportunities that were being discussed if you recall in
2012 there was a CIP
bond election and the voters approved approximately $400,
000 in funds
that are for public art to be used on the 35 Express
project and we'll talk
about that here in just a little bit and also since May
2014 staff has been
visiting with text on a gel to talk about what are those
public art
opportunities as well as get better clarification on
aesthetic opportunities
text dot does have a base design for 35 Express but however
they do give cities
the opportunities to make certain enhancements at the city
's cost next
couple slides here I want to show you is what the city of
Lewisville is engaging
in for additional aesthetic enhancements for some of the
bridges that they're
going to have redone in their community I will tell you
that Lewisville is
planning to spend somewhere in neighborhood of 12 million
dollars in
enhancements that's of their money in enhancements to
certain sections of 35
Express what you see here is a sample of what they're
planning for the
amenities for the Main Street bridge in their downtown area
this is actually sh
121 this is going to be an underpass where it's going to go
under I-35 I
guess I should say an overpass is the way text dot looks at
it but the actual
121 component what you see there is the amenities that they
're planning for to
pay for on 121 this is an example of some of the public
work art that they
are planning to have they're going to have public art on
all of the bridges by
the way but this is just a sample of the one that they're
planning to have at FM
407 the only bridge that the city of Denton is going to see
built to ultimate
design in phase one is North Texas Boulevard so that's the
bridge that I
want to focus our conversation on as it relates to these
aesthetic
opportunities what you see here before you is the base
design that we are going
to be getting for North Texas Boulevard as it stands right
now this is kind of a
photo photo rendering that shows you what the North Texas
Boulevard will look
like when it's completed under the current base design what
it does not
show you however is on the north end we negotiated a what
we call a Texas
turnaround just like you have there on the south side so
that also will be add
on to North Texas Boulevard but that's it that's that's
what it's going to
ultimately look like right now when it's complete with no
additional amenities to
it yes sir
well there are going to be pedestrian let me go to this
next slide there you
go there are going to be some pedestrian accommodations you
'll see a little
walkway here and I'll show you a better picture of that in
just a sec and there
are going to be on this side as well you'll see a
pedestrian but there's also
going to be a wider sidewalk on the north side I believe
that is on the
south side for because we understand that there will be
quite a bit of usage
going back and forth across this bridge so yes there's
gonna be a little wider
right correct what this slide is showing here are the
different areas where there
are aesthetic opportunities for us whether it's some sort
of hardscape or
landscape some sort of pedestrian lighting or banner poles
or maybe even
some public art where you see these circles with the
numbers one two three
and four we'll be talking about those here in just a minute
as far as
opportunities that the public art is considering using some
of that four
hundred thousand dollars that I mentioned earlier to come
and bring a
recommendation to you as to what kind of public art they
would like to see there
on North Texas Boulevard again going back to the base
design this is pretty
much what it's going to look like when North Texas Boule
vard is finished that
we don't do any kind of additional enhancement so what you
see there is a
raised sidewalk approximately seven point five feet but
there is no barrier
separating the pedestrian from either the turnaround
traffic where you see
that truck or the crossing traffic over North Texas Boule
vard so that's what we
have on the books right now for text out to build for us
there are however some
opportunities to add some additional things like a
pedestrian protection
barrier we have hired a consultant Parsons Bickershoff to
come in and help
us with some conceptual designs here what could be some
aesthetics to
consider as well as help us with the public art
considerations they're also
the firm that helped the city of Lewisville with the
enhancements that
they're adding so they're very familiar with this 35
express project and the
guidelines of what is not allowed a concept they gave to us
was we could do
some sort of pedestrian small wall barrier here where you
add if you wanted
to some sort of light pole amenities and then you can even
dress up the wall with
some sort of art in this case they use the UNT Eagle to be
imprinted into the
concrete here's another concept that they gave us if the if
you notice the
light poles on these those are the actual light poles that
the University
of North Texas uses on their campus so we sent those to
them and they drop
those in there so if for example UNT wanted to insist that
we have light
poles looking like they have in their campus that's what it
would look like
only instead of this one being a concrete barrier we would
have some sort
of metal fence to again provide some sort of protection for
anyone crossing
North Texas Boulevard. The next couple of slides will show
you some idea of the
different types of landscaping again I told you there are
landscaping
opportunities so we can do anything from a zero escape with
the natural grasses
that we have here or we wanted to get a little more
elaborate with some native
grasses and shrubs I do want to point out to you that
whatever we end up going
with keep in mind that the maintenance cost is going to
fall squarely on our
shoulders so whatever we end up putting in there we're
going to be responsible
for maintaining from now until I guess whenever.
Also want to give you some sort of sense as to what are
different types of
sidewalks and cross pavings that can be used again on North
Texas Boulevard not
necessarily that we would use any kind of pavers but at
least to give you an
idea that there are different patterns that can be used up
on the bridge either
there are crosswalks or on the sidewalks themselves. As I
mentioned we can also
look at dressing things up with the use of some banner
poles on either end of
the entrance to the bridge.
Well once again we can use pedestrian lighting here's the
sample that we got
from our consultants of different types of lighting that
are out there obviously
the one on the far left is the one that UNT is currently
using I will tell you
that we have been in discussions with the University of
North Texas to make
them aware of these aesthetic opportunities to find out
their
interests as to whether or not they are certain things that
elements they would
like to see on the bridge and if they're willing to
participate in the funding of
those elements so we have not had a chance to regroup with
them again but we
do have those ongoing discussions with them right now.
Yes yes. If we're going to put any color green can we get
them to commit to
staying with that color green for a long period of time? I
make no comment on that one sir.
There also is an opportunity for us to look at
identification and railing
options for North Texas Boulevard obviously if it's going
to be a heavily
used pedestrian area we might want to consider some sort of
raised railing
option but this is if you think about it this is the only
bridge when you're
coming in from the north from the Oklahoma area that you'll
have an
opportunity to go under and see some sort of identification
as to what
community you're entering into obviously you go under we go
under loop 288 right
now but loop 288 is not part of 35 Express projects so
nothing's going to
happen to loop 288 and so we had them do a rendering as to
what could be some
sort of identification we might be able to put on North
Texas Boulevard again on
our nickel and this is what they've given to us obviously
it's also an
entrance to University of North Texas so we put a UNT logo
on there as well for
consideration. The neat thing about this is we can also
talk about putting some
sort of backlighting to it so that even at night you'll be
able to see the name
of Denton as well as UNT and add a little bit of color
because we're
constricted in the types of color that we can use on this
bridge and I'll get
into that here in just a second so if we wanted to add some
additional color
either the UNT green or some blue for Denton or what have
you then we might
want to consider a backlighting option if that was what we
wanted to talk about as
well. I want to talk to you now a little bit about the
public art and the what
they're considering for North Texas Boulevard. If you look
at this slide here
there are kind of a green areas just off to the side there
on the north end of
the bridge on either side and those are the areas that I
want you to focus on.
These are the this is what it's going to look like as far
as color and treatment
and again this goes back to the guidelines that were
established back in
2011 for the corridor so the primary colors are gray and
secondary color is
this oak-green, okra, I never say that right seems like a
tan color to me and
then the accent color is cream yeah I'm still trying to
figure out what fuchsia is
so you've got the wrong person talking about colors up here
. Were those
selected by an engineer? I have no idea sir I do know that
it was a I don't
think it was selected by an architect. No no I don't
probably know but it was an
agreed color schematic up and down the corridor that they
've agreed this is
what it's going to be and then they've divided it up into
the north
central and the south section obviously we're in the north
section so we have
our own different color I don't know if it's the okra or
the gray but one of
those is just fortunately for our section of the of the
corridor. At any
rate where you see the yellow circle is the area where has
been identified as an
opportunity to put some sort of public art. What I want to
show you here is just
a quick visual of some of public art opportunities that are
out there these
are just this is an example of what they're called
repeating patterns that
is basically stamped onto the concrete the bikes that you
see there on the far
left hand side those that was a photo taken recently here
of Wichita Falls
we're just going up there Wichita Falls so that's a
repeating pattern but it's
got some sort of theme there obviously tied to the Harden
Hill 100. You can
also look at single patterns that you City of Arlington's
done a very good job
of taking for example some of their history in here is a
kind of a nod at
the the baseball park that's down there as well as to the
GM plant so this is
another opportunity that we can use down there as well.
Again our consultant in
meeting with the Public Art Committee put together just
some conceptual ideas
to get the conversation going so if they want to do
something similar to like
what City of Arlington did we could pick one or several
different themes that
identify the City of Denton so they just drop some things
there so they could see
what it would look like if you wanted to have that type of
public art or they
also talked about because public art was interested in in
some sort of what
they're calling medallion type of art which would be
basically a circular type
of art and inside the circle is where you would put some
sort of design so
these are just some concepts that they came up with so they
could have
discussion with public art whether it was specifically just
the city or some
sort of nod towards University of North Texas or the Peterb
ilt trucks that we
have here at City of Denton and to give you a kind of a
visual concept here's
what it would look like if we went with some sort of medall
ion type art in that
area of the bridge real quick question and throw it out
there for observation
it seems like as we've gone through these examples that of
course in the
city of Denton some of the logos UNT I've not seen anything
with Texas
woman's University is that is that something that I mean I
just want to be
careful that you know we have two major universities in
this town I understand
one of them is larger than the other but I just I just want
to make sure that we
don't necessarily forget that I understand and we haven't
mayor and
actually we're we've been talking about when they do the
Dallas Drive bridge
there if you recall that is the actual exit that you see if
you're coming
northbound 35 e for TWU there's a sign that says exit
Dallas driver I think
US 77 and that takes you from Dallas Drive straight on to
Bell straight on to
the campus so we would approach TW and see they would be
interested in
participating on something there when we get to that bridge
as I mentioned right
now we're just talking about only one bridge you have to be
an Ortex
Boulevard which is more aligned with you and thank you yes
thank you mayor along
that line the first off with regard to that stamp logo on
the bridge or
whatever I don't think we should go with any kind of logo
for either one of the
universities because that's changed many times over the
years and will change
again and I just don't colors too I don't see that the
necessity if they
want we want to put green whatever color their pole is up
there fine but in
anything else on that particular crossing doesn't make any
sense to me
they already have a huge sign out there billboard other
signs that all say UNT
why do we want to take this space and say UNT again on any
of that bridge base
to me this music logos things that are general to the
community that probably
won't change and I don't know that UNT would change but
then I wouldn't bet
that it wouldn't that it hasn't always been UNT and so they
change as time
goes by and I just don't personally see any reason why we
need to put those
specific entities on there as opposed to sort of the
elements of the community
music instruments nobody's even mentioned anything about
the equestrian
community which is a huge part of the north side of our
even our city and so I
sort of think we ought to be a little more general what and
council member that
on to that note that's the types of conversations been
taking place in the
public art committee and in fact that's their
recommendation or what they're
looking at is something along this line they are really
interested in the
medallion art concept they have directed staff and our
consultant to look at
using metal as opposed to embossing it on to the concrete
obviously if it was
metal it would be something that would have to be attached
on to the bridge
itself to the concrete so we're looking at that with text
that we have confirmed
that this is still a viable option for the corridor to have
this type of art
and they also want us to look at some sort of lighting you
not sure we'll be
able to actually put any kind of spotlight on it but we
might be able to
backlight it maybe have the word the letters actually cut
out so the light
shines through it something along those lines so I wanted
you to be aware that
this is the this is what they're they're talking about and
obviously when it ever
gets when it gets finalized we'll be coming to City Council
with their
recommendation for discussion with you take me on a bit of
a historical tour
of this whole topic because I'm trying to think back to
when we first we talked
about this and we looked at the various intersections that
ultimately would get
a treatment some sort of treatment and I don't think it was
just this one but
this is the only thing that's getting built to final phase
two standards
correct and that's why we're concerned with this particular
one right now
correct this is the only that's being built to the ultimate
design standard in
our city ultimately we're going to get other opportunities
to look at possible
public art projects along the highway but perhaps not for
who knows how many
years who knows correct but in context of that larger
discussion when we when
we first looked at $400,000 price tag when we were talking
about this
connection to the 2012 Street on program did we anticipate
that amount of money
to be able to be enough to get all the public art treatment
we needed in the
corridor or were we just talking about this particular
intersection I don't
remember I don't think council member that we anticipated
for it to be the
total cost for the art if you recall one of the other
things that was being
discussed was maybe an entrance marker we've been talking
about that for many
many years and we've never been able to come up with any
kind of good location
much less design and then ultimately cost for what an
entrance marker should
be for us so I know we had those discussions as well and
that can be
considered public art depending on how how it's designed
but I do know that we
needed to start somewhere and I think that's where that $
400,000 came now keep
in mind one of the things and I'll mention here in just a
second is public
art is also considering maybe having some additional part
added on attached
to so to speak to some of these other bridges that are not
going to get any
kind of enhancement for some time because the concern is
going to be as you come
up 35 e from 635 you're going to see all the new bridge and
amenities and farmers
branch and Carrollton and Louisville and Highland Village
and then you get to
Lake City's and and then you're going to get into Denton
and you're not going to
see anything in Denton an additional lane here an
additional lane there
that's about it and then until you get to North Texas Boule
vard and then that's
all you're going to see so one of the things that staff has
been discussing
with the public art committee is do you want to use all of
your money on just
North Texas Boulevard which I don't think that's what they
're interested in
or do you want to save some of that money and use it
somewhere else along
the corridor where there may be some public art
opportunities and I think
that's what they're considering what would be what would be
a good example of
that on what kind of public art are you are you I've got a
okay slide to show
you here just say okay and the only other thing I think
about given that is
that ultimately ten years from now we might be seeing this
kind of treatment
at other types of intersections once I 35 it's completely
built out to phase two
however long that takes so when we think about it I don't
want to lose context of
the overall goal of what we're trying to do with art along
the corridor and
you're going to give some suggestions of what to do in the
interim but arguably
one could say at this particular intersection that's
certainly now we're
not where you're getting off to go to the courthouse or to
downtown Denton so
but it makes sense if that's the only thing we're thinking
about doing at this
point that we want it Denton focus but at the end of the
day that is the UNT
kind of entrance and into the city so if you're thinking
about branding
particular intersections as certain things throughout the
city which makes
certainly makes sense long term we might want to have some
foresight into what
we're doing and if but I would add this caveat I think if
UNT wants to play
along with that which I would think they would have an
interest in I would think
they should contribute to that so that in the event they do
change their
branding change their logo then they're going to be
interested in changing that
as well someday as well but I don't know I just don't want
to lose sight of the
totality of the project that we're looking at and what
makes sense at
various intersections sure yes thank you mayor well as I
recall even early on
when we had these discussions a couple years ago it was
talk about using these
metal medallion sort of objects is it and maybe I'm wrong
but didn't it pop
there was a lot of discussion about the intersection at 380
and maybe that was
thinking build out but if you use these is there no reason
that for example at
380 you couldn't put some of these up and when the final
build out comes take
them off and put them on a new one and and so that we could
in fact have some
upgrade and to our public to those bridges and that sort of
thing that's
consistent across the whole corridor there and can continue
to use them even
when they do a new up right yesterday and there was that's
a committee talked
about that they have actually and they've talked about if
they had some
sort of art and again that's why I think they're interested
in something that can
be attached to the bridge as opposed to being part of the
bridge because at some
point some of these bridges are going to come down even the
bridge like McCormick
which is going to come down and then they're going to
rebuild it almost to
the at the same location but at a higher level because that
's what's needed
engineering wise but whenever they will these bridges come
down you have the
ability then to remove that art and if you so choose you
can put it back on
hopefully the new bridge or maybe find another opportunity
in our location
with the city but you haven't lost the art you're able to
still retain it and
just move it in place it somewhere else I think that's what
has attracted some
of the members about attaching the art piece to the bridge
instead of making it
part of the bridge and to add to that I just think it kind
of separates us from
some of the other looks going around our surrounding
communities and I don't
maybe I'm alone on this but I think that that's almost
looking dated and I like
the route that they're taking on this backlit I can see if
they used copper or
something it would patina it would be really interesting
cool look so yes they
they've talked a little bit about maybe even commissioning
the artwork we're not
sure if that's the best way to go but we're certainly
having those discussions
with them to see what come on the cost and as well as the
time that will take
to to get this going as opposed to just having one of these
companies that does
this do this for us there's no other questions and I'll go
and keep going
here and that is here's the example councilman Rodin that
you asked for of
the different types of art that could be placed in other
bridges not just the one
in North Texas Boulevard so if you look at these types of
graphics there these
are all metal graphics again depending on the level of
detail you don't want
obviously too much detail if you're going to be putting
this up on the
interstate where you'll be driving anywhere from 55 to 75
miles per hour but
if you're going to put these along the frontage roads McC
ormick Street or
Fort Worth Drive or Teasley then you might be able to get a
little bit more
elaborate and again this is something that you would have
to attach on to the
the bridge which can be removed whenever that bridges comes
down yes sir yes I'm
sorry go ahead the the the one on the bottom left-hand
corner has several
other colors would would text dot if we chose to do some
way like that with
would those be part of their would that be allowable in
their magnificent color
scheme have we asked we've asked I've got I've got a little
quite a bit of
pushback from textile when I've asked for different color
type schemes but we'll
continue to ask and see if we can continue to get some
additional colors
other than the three that have been approved for for 35
Express so again our
hope is if we are attaching something to the bridge we're
not changing the color
design of the background we're just adding color in what it
is that we're
attaching to the bridge yes that bottom right one is that
Mick Jagger Expressway
I have no idea sorry I had to say that okay I want to talk
to you now about an
opportunity that's been brought to us by a jail and text
dot what you see here is
the base design for the columns are supposed to be used on
the on the
bridges and according to the contract that they have they
have to adhere to
these design requirements that they've agreed to so for
example for the
substructure columns for Mayhill and Dallas Drive the fact
that they're going
to be adding on an additional lane north and southbound and
have to widen that
bridge means that they have to under the design standards
use these columns to
hold up that those additional lanes and so what they're
saying is they think
that would look a little funny with the round cement
columns that we have right
now under those bridges and on top of all of that we're
finding out they they
don't have whatever they don't touch they don't have to
paint so if they're
not touching quite a few of our bridges here they're not
going to do anything to
it and so what I wanted to do is show you just kind of here
visually what the
final column design is supposed to look like is what you
see up there on the
upper left hand side with those square columns but if you
look on the lower
right Mayhill Road is one of those where they're supposed
to put one of those
columns on the outside on either side of that bridge as you
can see it's going to
look a little funny having that along with these these
concrete ones so in an
order for a cost-saving measure they would like to continue
to put these
round columns on Mayhill as well as on Dallas Drive and if
we agreed to that in
return they're willing to paint the exterior some of the
bridges that
they're not required to paint such as loop 288 and Bonnie
Bray McCormick so
here's a here's a picture that was taken here recently of
the work that they've
done under loop 288 as you can see they put in the inside
lane already and
they've put up the round columns to match the round columns
that are there
now for loop 288 so you know it looks as as attractive I
guess as what was there
before but at least it's consistent in the look in that it
doesn't stand out
with the square columns and again the offer is to do some
painting to some of
our bridges which are are looking a little tired there's a
picture of Mayhill
as well as one of loop 288 as they exist today which again
these bridges are not
going to be torn down until phase two so I need a little
bit of direction from
council on three different items here first of all do you
want us to accept or
reject the AGL's offer to swap this required design of the
square columns
and take them up on their offer to do some additional
painting to some of our
other bridges that they are not going to have to do
anything on and with the
painting on those be the same gray and baby baby diaper
brown yes sir that is
the that's the design for our section the colors for our
section Oh okri
exactly what how many of those bridges would they be
painting in exchange for
our accommodation for those round column they'd be doing
all of them that they're
coming through here that they're not touching my
understanding mayor is
they've offered besides Mayhill because they're gonna be
there have to whatever
they touch they have to paint but they don't have whatever
they don't touch on
Mayhill they don't have to paint but they've offered May
hill loop 288 Dallas
Drive McCormick Bonnie Bray the ones that they're not
proposing to do is
Teasley Lane or or Fort Worth Drive because apparently the
traffic control
cost to be able to manage the traffic so they can paint
would be too high so
those two bridges are not being considered the others are I
guess in
that vein I think it'd be interesting to know what that
cost is the traffic
control at least for our benefit so if we decided somewhere
down the line to do
that so that all of our bridges are painted the same color
instead of just
two of I just be curious what that cost is just early from
a you know just
negotiation perspective okay what are they saying that cost
is oh do you have
okay maybe mr. Nelson can answer that question
mayor with respect to that question we actually have tasked
John Polster
transportation consultant to subtly visit with text dot
about that and
maintaining conformity through our community to have the
same color bridges
all the way through wash the costs on the traffic control
for the paint okay
thank you yes good yes councilmember angle very well on
bridges like Mayhill
where the interstate's going over it as opposed to North
Texas Boulevard where
it's going over the interstate what are they painting what
what exactly are they
painting on let's take make what would that mean what is
that that mean well
they have the obviously the columns that have to be painted
and then they have
the beams the outer beams that need to be painted and the
ones so so you would
see those on Mayhill as you cross under the traffic that's
going underneath the
interstate and they would take that pole but that the round
column concrete I'm
not sure if they're gonna paint the the actual column
concretes that are there
now I mean again that that could all be subject to
negotiation you know as the
mayor I'm trying to understand what it is exactly they're
gonna paint right
just I'm just curious to see I don't quite understand what
that looked like
on the ones that like North Texas Boulevard it does you
know they you see
that's going to be visible to a great deal of the crowd
public but whatever
the paint is on the others is not it's visible to locals
and not right right
and understand that North Texas Boulevard is going to be a
new bridge so there's
there's gonna be a the all new paint on the columns as well
as the beams on the
side as well well it's part of that then what about the the
bridge at 380
is there any discussion of doing anything to them no no
because they're
not they're not touching that bridge as part of phase one
okay there's no touch
at all okay as far as direction on this first item what's
council's pleasure I
mean that's a good that's a good question on what exactly
does painting
what does that mean sure in principle I'm certainly open to
swapping it as
long as maybe even with an informal staff report or
something we get an idea
of what that really entails yes I would be very interested
as well in what the
cost would be for example particularly at 288 on the north
side was that
crosses over the interstate and that's a place where you
know you were talking
about a post oak putting something on there to indicate you
're entering Denton
which seems to me that Luke 288 bridge on the north side
gives you an
opportunity to do the same thing going the other direction
but we would have to
do it but what are the limitations in terms of us being
able to do that in
terms of of maybe a blue paint as you know a different
paint color and being
able to put something on that bridge that says welcome to
Denton or just the
name I'd like us we're gonna follow through with this let's
follow up with
that and find out what that could be because in the short
run I think we
could do something there as an entryway marker that'd be a
lot less expensive
and take a lot less planning than something much larger so
as far as
direction on the bullet number one do we accept reject a GL
's offer swap
required design for painting of bridges so what's the
counselors inclination to
go ahead and pursue that pursue that that I'm saying a
affirmative response
okay all right and then we'll go ahead continue
negotiations and we'll get back
with you mayor via informal staff report I think he said
let you know what the
final outcome is then if you have any additional questions
we can discuss it
at that time okay all right the other one is need some
direction here is to
whether or not we should continue to proceed in discussions
with UNT and our
consultant to identify aesthetic opportunities on North
Texas Boulevard
bridge itself and then bring those back to you now if we're
going to do that we
probably need to bring those back to you if it relates to
the texture of the
bridge which it could be a smooth or it can be a rough
texture along the bridge
wall and to any lighting like the pedestrian lighting that
I showed you
those need to be turned into text dot or a GL no later than
August the 11th so we
currently have another work session item teed up on August
the fifth council
meeting to come and talk to you about any final
recommendations if you direct
us to go ahead and continue to look at possible aesthetic
opportunities both
with UNT and our consultants understand that we have very
limited funds here so
if we're going to want to do some stuff we're going to have
to figure out where
we're going to find the funding for whatever UNT is not
going to pay for
that's member road that was my question was going to be
about funding and it
sounds like there's some discussion that needs to be had
depending on what it
costs but that's including everything from lighting to
landscaping to the
walls for the pedestrians and everything you went over in
the first few slots
everything except for the public art piece right because
they already have
funding for the public art separate right but not
everything else that I
showed you as far as the walls and hardscape and landscape
and lighting and
if we want to put the name up there with that that says
Denton with the back
lighting as an identification marker all of that we have
some very limited funds
and we'll have to figure out what we can pay for now along
those lines and I have
to say I was a bit surprised looking at text dot standard
design the base
design upon which we can pay for extras you know text dot
now when you build out
roads for instance they have certain standards that require
pedestrian bicycle
accommodations with a lot of their projects large side
paths or whatever
I'm surprised at the lack of pedestrian accommodation in
text out zone based
design for this especially given that area and the number
of people who walk
back and forth I so I guess my question in light of number
two looking at it
that that slim little sidewalk is not sufficient I don't
know where cyclists
go but I know there's going to be a lot going back and
forth given there's a
residence hall on the other side and probably more to come
in the next couple
decades is there negotiations with text dot about that sort
of thing as we're
moving forward or do they just say here's the base design
it's insufficient
but that's all I'm going to give you do we know there's
nothing I'm just
surprised they don't have standards to accommodate those
sorts of things that
that's quite surprising to me so I would I guess my
suggestion is yes on that
point number two but I would say one of those discussions I
think to have with
UNT is is what sort of accommodations they think they need
to have and if
it's possible to build that in in terms of widening and out
some sort of shared
pedestrian bicycle path along there yes I'm curious about
your comment about how
little the money that we have I thought that we had set
aside public art money
from the last bond election specifically for the art for
these projects yes sir
let me clarify again we have four hundred thousand dollars
for the public
art piece anything like like this anything like this all of
that can be
taken care of out of public art the part that I'm talking
about is the amenities
that is not public art which is what I showed you early for
example here's what
Lewisville is doing they've got some banners they've got
some hardscapes
they've got some landscapes they've got some retaining
walls they've got you know
a lot of other things that they're adding on which is not
public art but
they're paying for it to the tune of about 12 million
dollars on their
bridges that's the money that I was telling you that we
have not identified
previously as to what part of money we might have for
whatever types of aesthetic
improvements we may want to make to North Texas Boulevard
well given given
what how this is posted tonight I've already sent an email
to the chair of
our mobility committee and our staff liaison suggesting
that we actually have
a work session a committee meeting to discuss pedestrian
bicycle connectivity
that that that may be adversely affected or that we it's
already adversely
affected by 35 going through town and we have some
opportunities to improve it we
need to we need to address that in our thanks mobility any
other questions so
move forward on this with the stipulations and observations
of
councilmember rodin is that what I'm saying all right I see
council's
affirmative in that yeah all right and then lastly as it
relates to the
conceptual graphics for public art the timeline we've been
given by text dot is
that a public art is due they would like to have it by the
end of September but
certainly no later than spring of 2015 as to what we're
finally going to do
regarding public art on the on the walls but no walls so as
I mentioned to you
right now the public art committee is looking at some sort
of medallion piece
they're looking at metal that will be attached to the
bridge and not actually
be embossed on the bridge and they're looking at one second
let me see where
I put it
trying to show you exactly the area where they're thinking
of putting this
on the bridge here it is they're looking at for example
where the number two and
the number three are or they're looking at where the number
one and number four
are and they're looking at whatever ends up being the
artwork having that same
one on both sides of the interstate so you'll have the same
you'll be able to
see the same design or piece whether you're northbound or
southbound through
our community yeah it's what they're they're considering at
this time yes
thank you mayor as text not approved are allowing us to put
on a metal medallion
we have we've checked with a jail and and our understanding
is that is still
a viable option to use that kind of artwork on these
bridges have they given
us size restrictions no sir I don't think we've had that
kind of level of
detail discussion with them nor do we even know if we'll be
able to have the
backlighting for it so there's still more discussions we
need to have with
them as we learn more what it is public arts wanting to
recommend a council
okay thank you all right so any other questions so yeah
yeah do we want to
proceed with the conceptual graphic art with public art to
bridge walls I see
council councilman road you okay with that all right let's
proceed you bet
great thank you mayor is that it okay good all right we
will now convene this
closed session at 3 0 7 p.m. on July the 15th 2014 this
closed session will be
held in the finance conference room to allow staff to set
this room up we will
consider the following item deliberation regarding real
property
under Texas government code section five five one point oh
seven two
consultation with attorneys
good evening this is a July 15th meeting 2014 of the Denton
City Council and we
do have a quorum present if we would all rise if you're
able to pledge allegiance
to the United States and Texas flag
honor the Texas flag I pledge allegiance to the Texas one
state and God one
indivisible
we're going to move on to our next agenda item which we're
going to we're
going to pull with the indulgence of council agenda item
number seven which is
new remarks and concluding remarks we've got a couple
presentations that we want
to make one I'm gonna pass over to Kevin Rodin he's got a
little announcement
that he'd like to make well thank you mayor while I'm here
my wife who I
married 14 years ago today it's our anniversary say happy
anniversary Emily
she's watching she's watching at home with our three kids
my youngest of which
turns one today so she's watching can you all join me as
uncle Jimmy here
leads us in a rendition of happy birthday to my one-year-
old Pearl please
Wow thank you thank you I love you Emily and I love you
little pearl girl and you
can turn this off now because you don't want to watch the
rest here thank you our
next item under agenda number seven is we've got a pro
clamation and I'd like at
this time for David Barrow to come forward and then anybody
that he'd like
to join him out up to the front and if we could we're going
to watch a little
clip from a documentary that was produced by mr. Barrow
when we were
Broncos so if you could start that clip now that'd be great
in a small but conspicuous way we were making history but
the history we made
and the history that made us can never be entirely
separated so this is our
story but is also the story of a community that stepped
from the shadows
of its past into a time when we were all Broncos
thank you thank y'all David Barrow is a native of Denton is
that is that correct
and he produced this he produced this video and it's about
the times in Denton
when didn't was going through desegregation and how the
sports program
really was beneficial in that effort and it goes into a lot
more detail but we
wanted to honor you today for this great gift that you've
given to the community
and you're certainly welcome to have anybody join you up
front or you would
you like to introduce your guests here okay I would thank
you I'd like to point
out my brother Mike's here my god a good friend Rob Hodek
Gary Martin who was a
helped us raise funds for the for the production I have
also Jerry Hutchins
his wife Rita and Bill Kerikow his wife Dina and I would
like to say first of
all that I very quickly about these two gentlemen here they
were my football
coaches and they taught me a long time ago that I could
accomplish anything I
set out to do so they deserve an awful lot of credit for
having this and
they've certainly been behind it from the beginning they
also want to thank
you mr. mayor and the council for this honor I always an
Oscar would be nice
but you only want to win an Oscar so the folks back home
will be proud of you and
this is an amazing honor something I absolutely did not
expect and and I'd
like to say that I'm accepting it on behalf of the people
we honored in the
film the people who supported us financially with their
energy and their
encouragement to get the film made and all the people in
Denton who work every
day day in and out year in year out the teachers the the
people that are in the
city government I can't name obviously everybody that I
want to thank for that
but those are the people who make a difference in Denton
and Denton's
wonderful citizens who embrace this film and this story
about our legacy of
tolerance and fairness and so anyway I'm extremely grateful
I'm also very
gratified by the crowd that turned out for me tonight I
understand you had to
secure overflow facilities and big-screen TVs and maybe
some of its
pearl I imagine a lot of it had to do with pearl too so
anyway seriously
though this is just one of the greatest honors my parents
received a day several
years ago coach Hutchins told me Billy Ryan had a day and
to be in that kind you
know company and I know it's something I never expected I
know you all have a lot
of business tonight so I'll keep it short and just I just
am so grateful
thank you well thank you for that and I know that I met
with him on Friday night
and I got to see coach Garland who was my I graduated from
Denton High in
1979 and I saw coach beam but I didn't tell this story that
when I was running
track coach Garland said be sure and run over the winter
time so I did I wound up
catching pneumonia being in the hospital for a week
probably couldn't walk a
quarter of a mile after I got out and so then I remember
going to football
practice later on in spring training and I could barely
even walk a quarter of a
mile coach beam what are you doing why are you so slow so
it was it was quite a
stroll down memory lane but great great memories and thank
you so much for this
gift to the community thank you so much and I want to read
this proclamation for
you thank you bet
proclamation by the mayor of the city of Denton Texas to
all to whom these
present shall comes greetings when we whereas when we were
all Broncos a
documentary that celebrates Denton legacy of unity and hope
and examines
the diverse cultures of Denton in the 1970s was recently
released by director
David Barrow and whereas David Barrow a Denton native son
grew up in a family
that gave back to their hometown with David's father Frank
serving on the
Denton City Council in 1958 and as mayor from 1959 through
1962 and owning the
varsity shop in the mid 1960s to the early 1980s David's
mother and father
were both active in the Denton Community Theatre from 1970
until his father's
death in 2006 while his mother has remained active in the
theater and
whereas and whereas following in that legacy of giving back
to the community
David Barrow undertook a project to tell the story of the
1972 season of the
Denton Bronco football team as the team and the high school
worked through
desegregation and integration and whereas David Barrow's
documentary
actually tells accurately excuse me tells an important
story in the history
of Denton and honestly acknowledges some parts of our past
that we are not proud
of but it also shows the culture of Denton as one that is
progressive and
solves problems in a way that minimizes polarization and
disharmony this film
honors many civic leaders teachers and coaches who worked
hard to end racial
segregation in a way that brought all of our citizens
closer together and whereas
David Barrow graduated from Denton High School in 1973 and
received his
undergraduate master's degree in English at the University
of North Texas and
while currently living in decob decab didn't get about
first night yes
Illinois with his wife and two children still feels that
Denton will always be
his home now therefore I Chris Watts mayor of the city of
Denton Texas do
hereby proclaim July the 15th 2014 as David Barrow day in
the city of Denton
and urge all citizens to recognize David Barrow for his
wonderful
accomplishments and thank him for his wonderful tribute for
his portrayal of
Denton and we in when we were all Broncos and witness where
of I have signed
this proclamation
and I wanted to ask where can they get this thank you I
almost forgot recycled
books downtown has copies of the DVD for sale and we are
raising money for a
scholarship fund and we're trying to reach our goal of ten
thousand dollars
through the Denton Public School Foundation and you can
also go to when
we were all Broncos comm and order it online but you can go
right downtown on
our square and also purchase them at recycle books and
thank you for for the
plug appreciate it thank you
since they were all here for you then everybody can now go
home yes all right
we're going to move on to consent agenda consent agenda
agenda item number two
citizen reports review of procedures for addressing the
City Council I think
we're going to are we going to play that are we just gonna
yeah yeah that's
it may not have queued it up yeah yeah we'll just go ahead
to agenda item to be
which is received a citizen report from the following
receive report citizen
report from Brian McCarter regarding the creation of a zero
waste team in Denton
is mr. McCarter at least in this chamber is he in the
overflow room okay
no response okay all right then and wanted to make an
announcement that we
were setting up a hundred and fifty chairs out over at the
Civic Center
which is a just a little jaunt next door so anybody that's
sewing client could
certainly and we have it streamed in there as well I also
wanted to announce
before we get to agenda item number three that if anyone is
here for agenda
item 4a that agenda item has been withdrawn so we will be
we will not be
hearing that tonight agenda item 4a so we'll move on to
agenda item number
three which is consent agenda
councilmember Gregory thank you mayor we are pulling items
B B that double B and
items Y and Z and so after pulling those I move approval of
all of the other
agenda items a through double a all right we have a motion
I saw somebody's
second councilmember Hawkins I second thank you all right
we have a motion and
second I'll vote on the board please
consent agenda items are approved unanimously except for
those that were
pulled we'll move on now to agenda item 4b which is
considered option of an
ordinance of the city of Denton Nunk Pro Tunk correcting an
invert mistake in
ordinance number 2010 - 42 oh okay yeah let's change that
again
all right afford that was the wrong caption for B is hold a
public hearing
and consider adoption of an ordinance regarding a specific
use permit to allow
record services and impound lots use on a property located
in an employment and
center industrial do we have a staff presentation
all right we do have and I think mr. Brian Lockley is going
to present this
public hearing Brian I couldn't find you Brian is our
director of planning and
development thank you Brian thank you city manager mayor
members of the City
Council at the request of the applicant staff requests that
this item simply be
opened continued and we'll make a formal presentation at
the next City Council
meeting date certain to August 5th that will allow the
applicant to be present
at this meeting and then to take a public comment all right
so the request
is that we go ahead and open the public hearing yes sir and
then continue it and
then staff at the next meeting will make the staff
presentation yes sir all
right councilmember Engelbrecht what do you want and we
will now open the public
hearing for this agenda item councilmember Engelbrecht
thank you I
would move that we continue this item to August 5 council
member Gregory second we
have a motion to continue this item to August 5th let's
vote on the board
please
the motion to carry this public hearing to continue to
August 5th has been
approved unanimously we'll move on to agenda item 4c which
is hold a public
hearing and consider adoption of an ordinance regarding a
specific use
permit to allow the installation of a telecommunications
telecommunications
tower on a property located in an industrial center general
zoning and
use district thank you mayor mr. Lockley is also going to
present this public
hearing thank you Brian
thank you city manager mayor members of the City Council
the request before you
this evening is made by at miss energy and it's for a
specific use permit to
allow for the installation of a telecommunications tower on
the subject
property located in an ICG zoning district on approximately
six point eight
acres this is the property here shown which is located just
south of McKinney
Street west of Trinity Road this is the atmosphere gas
storage facility for this
area this is just a general location map that gives you a
little more detail on
the site itself the area that's highlighted here in red and
noted here
by the red circle is the actual location for the telecommun
ications tower that's
being proposed for this specific use permit the site is z
oned ICG properties
to the north are within the ETJ but properties in the south
are within the
city but zone to RD 5x to the east we have some NR4
property as well as some
NRMU and NRMU 12 property the line use map for this site is
for an industrial
center to the north and to the east there are some
neighborhood center
future land use designated properties this is a site plan
that really
illustrates the location of the gas well I'm sorry of the
cell tower
telecommunications tower in relation to an existing single-
family building and
as you can see from this illustration the site is
approximately 518 feet from
that existing facility and this is just a close-up of that
facility as well
site plan an elevation that shows the telecommunications
tower itself and it's
the lattice tower which is going to be used to transmit
real-time information
to at Mrs. central locations across the Dallas Fort Worth
Metroplex some time
ago there was also a permit approved for at Ms. to store
gas underground at this
location and simply what occurs is that as excess gases
then stored as the
demand increases in the needed right and the need arises
they'll then be able to
transfer that information or that gas to these other
locations this
telecommunications tower will allow them to do that and
keep in constant contact
with whatever their needs are across the Metroplex these
are just getting into
some site photos that shows the location of the atmosphere
's energy's facility and
this is looking north towards McKinney Street it's very
rural undeveloped and
this is the location on site for the telecommunications
tower now the site
will be used simply by at Ms. energy it will be a lattice
lattice tower
constructed as well it will not be a monopole again this is
another site
photo staff did send out notifications in the range of 200
and 500 feet of
this area it did not clip many properties obviously these
are some
very large parcels in this area which again is largely unde
veloped staff did
not receive any responses and opposition or in favor of
those notifications as a
result planning and zoning Commission did review this item
and they do
recommend approval of this request subject to conditions
the development
review committee has also reviewed this request for a
specific use permit and
they also recommend approval subject to conditions and
those conditions are as
follows that the site plan submitted and shown as exhibit 7
shall guide the
development of the telecommunications tower on the subject
site and that the
elevation plan submitted and shown as exhibit 8 of the
report shall also guide
development and finally that the tower shall not exceed 165
feet in height as
shown on the elevation plan that concludes my presentation
I'll stand
for any questions the applicant is also present and has a
presentation of their
own do we have questions for you open the public hearing
councilmember Hawkins
thank you mayor I just wanted to clarify or get on record
they did have a public
meeting and nobody attended that's correct okay thank you
Brian any other
questions before opening the public hearing seeing none the
public hearing
is now open we have no cards to speak but this is a public
hearing so anybody
wishing to speak on this item is welcome to come down and
address the council just
state your name and address for the record anybody wishing
to speak seeing
none I will is he is he have a would the applicant like to
speak sure you bet
come on down
thank you thank you mr. mayor council pleasure to be with
you again tonight my
name is Jeff Hargrave I'm vice president of pipeline
operations for atmos energy
in Dallas Texas my address is 5420 LBJ freeway suite 1528
Dallas Texas 75240 as
we have spoke many times before and regarding this
particular facility I
just wanted to remind you briefly this natural gas storage
facility has been
operation continuously since 1967 it is regulated by
federal and state agencies
under a permit from the Texas Railroad Commission and
consists of a pumping
facility and non gas injection storage wells we store gas
in the depleted
strong sand reservoir and as mr. Lockley alluded to we take
excess gas off the
pipeline system and inject that gas into storage and it's
withdrawn when peak
energy demands are required so on the coldest winter days
it really provides
natural gas service to residential and commercial customers
and not only in
Denton certainly as the first customer but also North Texas
as well it operates
in perpetuity under an operating lease agreement that is
owned and held by the
city of Denton and the city of Denton began oversight in
with the May 2010
annexation I'd also remind you that must pop on Texas is a
division of atlas
energy and as a utility under the Texas utilities code you
might be asking
yourself why we'd be considering this tower owning this
tower allows us to
improve our communication capabilities as I said this is a
real-time facility
that is operated continuously it's critical to the energy
needs in North
Texas and we prefer not to locate any communication devices
on a tower that's
sensitive like that that controls the energy energy
security and of course
under the industrial center general designation we would
require a specific
use permit and we are agreeing and accepting of the
conditions there's a
photograph of a tower similar exactly what we plan to
construct and I'd be
pleased to stand for any questions should you have any any
questions for
the applicant seeing none thank you very much thank you
thank you seeing no one
else wishing to speak on the public hearing I will now
close the public
hearing councilmember Hawkins thank you mayor I move
approval of item 4c
councilmember Engelbrecht second we have a motion to second
let's vote on the
board the agenda item passes unanimously we will now read
the next agenda item 4d
hold a public hearing and consider adoption of an ordinance
of the City
Council of the City of Denton Texas amending chapter 16
licenses permits
and business regulation of the code of ordinances of the
City of Denton Texas
by adding a new article 7 prohibition of hydraulic fract
uring generally
providing that hydraulic fracturing operations are
prohibited in the City of
Denton making findings providing a repealer clause
providing a severability
clause providing for a penalty and for providing for
publication and effective
date before we open the public hearing just want to give
you some basic
background on how this item came before the City Council
and then just to remind
and refresh our memories of the procedures for this
particular public
hearing not particular public hearing for public hearings
in general on May
7th 2014 members of a committee of petitioners submitted an
initiative
petition pursuant to the Denton City Charter regarding the
banning of
hydraulic fracturing a well stimulation process to improve
the flow of natural
gas into gas wells the city secretary determined the
petition to be sufficient
and certified it to be in compliance with the City Charter
and at the City
Council meeting of June the 3rd 2014 the City Charter
provides that when the City
Council receives a certified initiative petition from the
City Secretary a
public hearing shall be noticed and the initiative
ordinance will come before
council for consideration within 60 days after the date on
which the petition
and ordinance were certified to the council the City Char
ter also provides
that if the council fails to pass the initiative ordinance
or if the council
passes it in a form different from that set forth in the
petition then the
proposed ordinances will be submitted to the electors so
agenda item 5a is the
agenda item to call the election should this agenda item
not be approved by the
City Council so what we would like if you would those that
are signed up to
speak for agenda item 4d if you're also going to be
speaking on agenda 5a
because they're very connected if you could go ahead and
say your comments on
5a at the time that you come to speak with with agenda item
4d also reminding
us that agenda item 5a which is the calling for an election
is not it is a
ministerial act of the city the Charter says that we shall
do that call for an
election if this agenda item does not passes so I want to
remind you of the
procedures if you would like to speak on either this agenda
item or item 5a you
must register and place your name on the list of speakers
which we have and
you've been assigned a number the time limit for speakers
his three minutes and
I believe the three minutes will show up on all the screens
and I believe on the
podium or the screen behind me we would ask that you
respect that time limit
because I calculated we have 89 speakers that are signed up
so it's critical that
we try to respect everyone's time and this process and
procedure and just if
you can really try to reframe your your comments to two
three minutes also want
to acknowledge and some some people that will be joining us
here tonight I'm not
sure if they're here yet but when they are we'll certainly
pull them in to
speak it's some of our elected officials Senator Craig Est
es of district 30
chair of the Senate Agriculture and Rural Affairs Committee
will be joining
us and he will be the first speaker to speak if he's not
here right now we'll
get him in as soon as he can representative Meyer Crownover
who is the
district represented for 64 didn't County and vice chair of
the House Energy
Resources Committee will also be speaking we've got pastor
JC Thomas here
representing representative Lon Burnham district 90 Tarrant
County who was
unable to be here tonight we have former Supreme Court
Chief Justice Tom Phillips
is here with us this evening and he served from 1988 to
2004 on the Texas
Supreme Court and then Bruce Redden Dallas regional
director for Senator Ted
Cruz and as if they're not present tonight we will go ahead
and allow them
to speak when they when they do arrive so are there any
questions from my
colleagues before we open the public hearing
seeing none we will go ahead and open the public hearing
and what I will do is
call your number that you were signed and also your name
and if when you
approach the the podium if you could give your name and
address for the
record and then limit your remarks to three minutes as much
as possible our
first speaker is Bobby Jones and Randy Sorrell's which will
be making a joint
presentation I believe so they will have three minutes each
for a combined total
of six minutes if you would state your name and address for
the record I'm
Randy Sorrell's 3501 Roseland Drive Denton Texas I'm Bobby
Jones 1824 South
Bonnie Bray in Denton mayor and City Council members me and
Bobby Jones both
are longtime residents of Denton Texas and local business
operators we both own
a fair amount of property within the city of Denton and we
're both mineral
right owners within the city we are here today to support
the Denton taxpayers
for a strong economy we like to present you with these pet
itions that have been
signed by roughly 8,000 like-minded residents of the city
of Denton just
over two weeks for a strong the Denton taxpayers for a
strong economy grew to
over 8,000 supporters we conducted this petition petition
simply to demonstrate
to you our local elected officials that there are many of
us in Denton who
support reasonable and responsible drilling regulations
instead of a
drilling ban we support reasonable and responsible oil and
gas drilling
regulations to protect the city's citizens the land the
environment to
protect the property owner and the mineral owner's rights
to protect our
local economy and jobs for instance Peterbilt the number of
trucks they
supply to the oil and gas companies just to name one to
protect the University
of North Texas oil and gas revenues to protect the city
county and state school
districts oil and gas revenues and to protect the taxpayers
from future tax
increases costs from reduced or denied oil and gas revenue
which supported by
this which helps report public service and the
infrastructure we are opposed to
any unconstitutional government taking of our private
property landowner and
mineral owners rights we are opposed to the city and we the
taxpayers to
millions of dollars in cost to litigations lawsuits that
will surely be
filed if this band is passed we are opposed to the exposing
the city and we
the taxpayers to millions of dollars in reimbursement cost
to private landowners
and mineral owners damaged by the condemnation of their
private property
that this band will cause mayor and the council didn't
taxpayers for a strong
economy respectfully offers these petitions to shine light
on a on the
damaging reality the proposed drilling band would bring to
our city and to our
citizens as such our responsible drilling petition stands
in sharp
contrast to the drilling band petition which we believe is
nothing more than a
blindfold over the eyes of our taxpaying citizens a rope
around the neck of the
local city economy and a knife in the back to the property
owners in the
American energy independence well thank you for this
opportunity for us for me
and Bobby to speak we'd like to hand these petitions over
to y'all and thank
you for your time thank you if you wouldn't mind just
deliver them to the
secretary thank you at this time I'd like to call pastor JC
Thomas
representing representative Lon Burnham
state your name and address please mr. mayor and esteemed
members of the City
Council my name is JC Thomas I am from the office of State
Representative Lon
Burnham at 1067 West Magnolia Avenue in Fort Worth 76 104 I
'm speaking here I'm
here on behalf of State Representative Lon Burnham to ask
you to uphold the ban
on fracking in the city of Denton on the basis of adverse
environmental
impact that it will have they could have on groundwater as
well as other issues
at the behest of a representative Burnham I have brought
copies which are
for each of you of the footworth weekly dated June the 9th
9 through the 15th
which sheds light on the experiences of the residents of
Dalworthington Gardens
as they are dealing with the debilitating effects the fr
acking has
had on their community I would like to just reference just
a little of this a
Pappy Elkins Lake was only recreational until XTO arrived
various fishing
websites have given it high marks in beauty and a large
supply of worm
hungry fish now not only is it only a shadow of its former
self but the
portion of its shoreline occupied by the gas plant is
littered with tubes hoses
tanks and other equipment showing big rust stains the cover
of one water waste
tank has a gaping hole representative Burnham asked me to
instructed me to
also asked you to consider that the letter that was written
by Texas
Railroad Commission Chairman Barry Smitherman in his own
words to be
extremely misguided thank you for your consideration of
this matter I
appreciate it thank you our next speaker will be speaker
former Texas Supreme
Court Chief Justice Tom Phillips mayor and council members
my name is Tom
Phillips and I was Chief Justice of the Texas Supreme Court
from 1988 till 2004
but I'm here tonight as a lawyer from the Baker Botts law
firm representing the
Texas oil and gas Association an Association of more than 5
,000
independent and major oil and gas producers I believe that
the proposed
ordinance to ban hydraulic fracturing is unconstitutional
because state
regulation of oil and gas exploration and production has
displaced a city's
ability to ban all economically viable drilling within its
borders the legal
term for this displacement is called preemption and some
members of Texoga
will undoubtedly sue the city on this ground if the
ordinance becomes
effective if the ordinance is not preempted however then I
believe it's an
even larger danger to the city because if it comes into
operation it will
almost surely amount to a taking as to some mineral
interest owners and some
producers and that could result in tremendous legal fees to
the city and
ultimately to judgments against the city let me briefly
discuss each of these
grounds the Texas Constitution says that no ordinance
passed shall contain a
provision inconsistent with the general laws of the state
the laws of Texas say
that it's Texas is intent that the mineral resources of
this state be fully
and effectively exploited and to that end the Texas Legisl
ature has given
tremendous powers to the Texas Railroad Commission and the
TCEQ to regulate
various aspects of drilling the legislature also says that
municipalities
have power to regulate drilling but in this instance I don
't think regulate can
possibly mean prohibit because that would undermine the
state's policy for
developing its mineral resources and would render the
powers exercised by the
Railroad Commission and the Commission on Environmental
Quality a mere nullity
if the ordinance is is preempted then it simply would not
take effect or if it
takes effect it would be undone by a court and that would
be it for the City
of Denton however if you are permitted to do this and that
is within a
municipalities acceptable scope of authority then to the
extent it operates
to take away property of an individual it could be a taking
which violates both
the federal and the state Constitution and the city would
be liable in damages
for that taking taking law is complex and it constitutes a
balance but in other
jurisdictions and in Texas when someone owns property that
can be produced
mineral production is there and that right is totally taken
away are
substantially impaired they've been able to recover thank
you thank you very much
and I have a written statement of which goes to not only no
more detail but even
has footnotes which we'll pass around okay thank you thank
you thank you sir
we'll go to and before I go to the next speaker just want
to let everybody know
that the comment cards that were filled out if you're not
wishing to speak and
then we received some written correspondence one from the
chairman of
the Texas Railroad Commission that those will be included
in the record for this
proceeding so I just wanted to make sure everybody
understood that and was aware
of that a speaker number three is at Ireland
mayor council my name is Ed Ireland and I'm the executive
director of the Barnett
shale Energy Education Council in Fort Worth at 777 Taylor
Street suite 900 I
also served as a member of the city of Denton gas task
force in 2012 I am
reading some remarks by dr. Ray Perriman who has been
analyzing the economic
impact of the Barnett shale activities since 2007 I'm
skipping some comments
with his credentials but you'll have a handout with that mr
. Perron dr. Perriman
says I appreciate mr. Ireland reading this statement on my
behalf as I'm
unable to attend the hearing due to a scheduling conflict
we estimated the
cumulative economic and fiscal impacts of a fracking ban in
the city of Denton
over the next 10 years including the multiplier effects the
overall harms
were found to be substantial including the loss of
thousands of job years over
the next 10 years and millions of dollars annually for
relevant taxing
entities potential losses in the city of Denton through
2023 include two hundred
and fifty one point four million dollars in gross product
in two thousand seventy
seven person years of employment losses for Denton County
and Texas including
the city of Denton would be even higher with losses to the
state estimated to be
three hundred and fifty four point eight million dollars in
gross product in
two thousand seven hundred and eighteen person years of
employment local
entities would forgo an estimated ten point seven million
dollars in tax
revenues over the next ten years due to a fracking ban
which could otherwise
have been used to fund local priorities and education these
losses include five
point one million dollars for the city of Denton about one
million dollars for
Denton County and four point six million for Denton
independent school district
the state of Texas tax losses would be about seventeen
point one million dollars
for the tenure period royalties to individuals business
public schools and
the University of North Texas and other public and private
entities with
interest within the city would decline without the addition
of new wells and
the potential to rejuvenate production of existing wells
these millions of
dollars in losses would negatively affect budgets and
resources the Barnett
shale has generated thousands of jobs and tens of billions
of dollars in
investment over time moreover direct spending for
exploration and production
activity related to the Barnett shale leads to multiplier
effects through the
economy which in turn initiates a chain of spillover
business stimulus
throughout the area the activity stimulates both state and
local
governments through property taxes severance taxes enhanced
retail sales and
real estate development permits and fees and other types of
levies such as hotel
motel occupancy taxes and receipts stemming from various
taxable activities
the Barnett shale can continue to serve as an important
source of economic
stimulus and opportunity for the local area and state for
decades to come
however hydraulic fracturing is an essential part of this
future
development a ban on fracking would cause a notable
decrease in in business
activity and opportunities for local residents as well as a
reduction in tax
revenue to local entities and to the state thank you thank
you and I have a
copy of dr. Pyroman's study for each of you and a copy of
his remarks all right
thank you thank you thank you speaker for is John Tintera
I am John Tintera council members I'm here as a geologist
today oh could you
give your address please I'm sorry 1611 West Avenue in
Austin Texas I thought I
could help the council today because I am the former
executive director of the
Railroad Commission of Texas I'm not here as a spokesman
for the agency but I
know the regs better than most I spent 20 years at the
agency and I'd like to
offer that resource not just to the council but really to
everybody that's
in the room of any side of whichever side the parties
happen to be I'm happy
to sit down and discuss what the regs are and try to
explain them as best I
can and how they're enforced how you can contact the agency
in any way that I can
provide some assistance because frankly the regulations
that exist today are
facts and they should be based on good science and that
should be defensible
science so please consider me a resource witness now I
would like to say that the
fracking that's going on today is not your grandfather's
hydro fracturing I
think we all recognize that it's long lateral holes with
massive pressure and
significant activities that are going on however the
regulations that address
hydro fraction today are not your grandfather's regulations
effective
January 1st 2014 the Railroad Commission enacted stringent
new regulations on
hydro fracturing which are very significant in what their
scope and what
their stance is it requires pressure testing of the tub
ulars that are going
to be used in the hydro fraction monitoring of the annulus
reporting to
the Railroad Commission of any failures during the hydro
fracturing operation
immediate cessation of the hydro fracturing operation until
the Railroad
Commission gives the approval to continue with that
virtually every
aspect of the drilling of the well and the fracking of the
well is fully
addressed in a great amount of detail that didn't exist
before and that rule
is in effect as of today and really as of January 1st 2014
there have been
other rules that have been put into place you might be
aware of the frac
focus an effort to ensure that there's transparency that
exists and that is
available on a well-by-well basis and the legislature put
it in fact two
sessions ago I would also like to Benson that the Railroad
Commission is a member
of the groundwater protection committee and it is under
statutory obligation to
identify and report to the state of Texas in the annual
report any
groundwater contamination that exists the oil and gas
industry does have some
cases however none of them are related to hydraulic fract
uring there has never
been a case of documented groundwater contamination from
hydraulic fracturing
in the history of hydraulic fracturing and the Railroad
Commission looks for it
because they have a fund the oil field cleanup fund that if
the operator failed
to clean it up the state would clean it up and would take
action for doing that
so I would encourage the City Council to take into
consideration the existing
regulatory framework which is stringent I do international
work also and frankly
the reason I do international work because the governments
of places like
Eastern Europe former Soviet Bloc countries are very
interested in what
the regulatory framework is in Texas because Texas has
looked at as a model
worldwide for what the success of unconventional reservoirs
can bring and
it's not just the economic implications with the geopolit
ical implications that
matter and I would urge every council member today to
recognize that the arena
that is watching what happens in Texas is not just
statewide and not just
national but truly international in scope appreciate your
time and again I'm
here to serve the council or anybody else in the room in
any way I can thank
you very much councilmember road yeah I've got a question
yes sir one of the
reasons we're here is because of the close proximity some
of these drillers
have drilled next to established neighborhoods in some
cases 200 feet
from backyards is that acceptable from your perspective as
a former regulator
in this industry well let me talk about the regulations
that might address that
instead of my personal opinion the railroad Commission
regulations are
focused on the mineral estate and there are exhaustive and
detailed requirements
and responsibilities to every operator to make sure that as
far as the mineral
state and lease lines go that there is no waste and that
the development is
ordered and regularly the safety aspects of the railroad
Commission ensure the
safe drilling of well wherever it would be if every
railroad Commission
regulation and rule is followed there should be no
accidents in the oil field
that occur they're intentionally designed to prevent that
however to be
fair to your question sir the railroad Commission does not
have the authority
or does and does not have currently regulations that are
involved with
setbacks from surface features or other activities with
that usually
municipalities are the ones that have used some codes for
doing that they have
avoided the takings proposition because they've used the
accommodation doctrine
as part of their doctrine and I'm not an attorney I'm a ge
ologist but the
hundreds of years of case law the predominance of the
mineral state and
the fact that in most cases reasonable people with
reasonable minds could come
up with reasonable conclusions have given enough time have
satisfied most of
the results and come up with whenever there are
restrictions on where to drill
it doesn't result in the takings of mineral because those
minerals are still
accessible did that answer your question sir not not really
I mean yes sir again
I think people are concerned of this close proximity of
drilling to houses
they're number one investment in a lot of cases and it
sounds like what you're
saying is from an industry perspective and even from a
state regulatory
perspective that's just fine is that is that correct the
Railroad Commission does
not have the statutory authority or the rules that would
cause setbacks for
surface locations based on any of the quality of life
issues that you might be
concerned about they do have extensive regulations on the
safe drilling of the
wells so there is a quality of life issue and there's a
safe drilling issue
that I think that need to be addressed and the Railroad
Commission has recently
fully addressed those when it comes to hydraulic fracturing
I think they look
for local government and local control to come up with
reasonable as previous
speakers and other speakers will say reasonable ways to try
to in the
accommodation doctrine ensure that the people that own the
minerals can get the
value to the minerals with accommodating the surface owners
and that accommodation
doctrine again has been established quite a while in the
civil courts
councilmember Gregory thank you mayor yes sir I believe I
understood you to
say that you felt that the Texas Railroad Commission had
stringent
regulations I think that's the word that you used I get
that right yeah I'm
happy to say that they do for for operations under their
jurisdiction
could you talk to me about how the Railroad Commission goes
about ensuring
that producers actually follow those regulations how many
regulators you have
how many inspectors you have how many wells there are
across the state yes I
will and I need to again excuse me sir remind the council I
'm not speaking for
the Railroad Commission I retired from the Railroad
Commission I'm the former
executive director so I want to be careful to make sure I
say that but I
certainly know the procedures extremely well there there's
probably several
hundred inspectors across the state those inspectors do
field inspections on
a routine and a regular basis they focus on priority
inspections that will have
either the greatest public safety or the greatest
environmental impact for
example surface casing which protects fresh water is
usually an effort to
witness that by actual railroad Commission personnel laying
eyes on that
all of course all their documents are public information
and retrievable by
any member of the public that wants to make requests by it
all the way down to
the inspector reports that are there the state agency
operates 24/7 there are
emergency phone numbers they both in Austin as well as Wich
ita Falls as well
as in the Kilgore District Office inspectors are stationed
as outriders
which means that they are located locally in various areas
near where oil
field activity is going to go those outriders change with
time as new areas
begin development so that you don't have to have a district
office to have a
railroad Commission inspector that is nearby to handle any
sort of emergency
report or to see a spill or to conduct the inspections
furthermore the railroad
Commission is very responsive to complaints any citizen can
call in a
complaint and say I would like to request an inspection
depending on if
it's a pollution or a safety complaint you'll get an
immediate response if
it's a paperwork complaint or something else it'll be
scheduled and you'll be
told when they are you meet the inspector when you're out
there so
there's an effort to serve the public and I think that's a
very important
effort so from your experience yes sir while you were there
a gas well would be
inspected how many times per year it would be dependent on
the location of
it there's not a statistic that I can answer then how about
a gas well in an
urban area again I don't have a ready statistic to answer
that for you
however if there's a complaint on that gas well will be ins
pected virtually
immediately if it is a gas well that is undergoing an
activity that for example
might require depressurization of the well or any
activities will go in the
well that has a higher priority for the railroad Commission
to inspect there is
no doubt that there are a lot of wells in Texas and just
like there's not a
policeman at every stop sign there's certainly not a
railroad Commission
inspector on every lease every day so the only I don't mean
to be argumented
yes sir the only thing I'm hearing from you is that they
don't inspect the wells
every day that is correct there are there are a few wells
except if they're
in an activity that would require oversight based on the
priority like
plugins plugins are very important so those are watched
carefully the railroad
Commission can prioritize certain activities district
offices might
prioritize hydro fracturing operations in one area they
might also prioritize
any emergency operation has a very high priority like spill
response that has a
very high priority 24/7 Christmas Eve night you'll be out
there making sure
that spill response is correctly handled thank you very
much you're welcome sir I
do have one question I just want to make sure I heard you
correctly yes sir to
your knowledge as past executive director of the Railroad
Commission that
there are not regulations that regulate setbacks of wells
to whatever
different kind of use yes specific regulations for the
location of
facilities and setbacks you know from residents don't exist
in railroad
Commission regulations they are taken into account by the
regulations of the
Railroad Commission when there is a question of an operator
about a drilling
site location and having to because of the mineral rights
associated with that
having to go to a specific location because the city wants
them to drill
there right however it might be a violation of mineral law
of the Railroad
Commission and the Railroad Commission will consider
whether they should adapt
that mineral law in order to allow the city to have that
location in its
present state okay all right councilmember Engelbrecht
thank you
mayor as an individual would be all right with you if we
set up a diesel
generator 200 feet from your back door and your residence
and ran it 24 hours
a day I've conducted investigations as as a railroad
Commission employee
regarding concerns about significant nuisances and let's
face it noise is a
significant use it's a quality of life issue that that's in
through there and
that brings me back to the concept of that it should be
reasonable people with
reasonable conversation can get reasonable results and I
certainly am
happy as a former regular to play whatever role I can in
trying to get
there of course I would have any concern that would impact
my my house or my life
or my family and I wouldn't hesitate to turn to a regulator
and say what can you
do about that if you have a noise or odors or other
associations associated
activities like that the air issues are usually Texas
Commission on environmental
quality and that's where you would go for that if there are
local ordinances
that are applicable you would turn to your local ordinances
for that let me
just follow that up a minute what are the municipalities to
do when
reasonable people can't find a reasonable operator to deal
with well
and this is stepping away from the rags and well I bring it
up because you did
yeah I'll do my best to try to answer that I don't think
there should ever be
an effort to stop having those conversations and I'm
hopeful that the
other entities of both sides that will be here will echo
some of the comments
that I'm saying and saying is well perhaps there is a way
to come up with
agreements or common understandings that will let this move
forward without a
confrontational attitude or without having to give the city
a heavy lift okay
that could be a very challenging aspect for the city but
that is based on my
opinion sir of what I consider good government all right
thank you no more
further questions thank you thank you I want to just not
remind because I failed
to mention the beginning but the reserved seats that we
have are for our
speakers who are up and coming so those who have spoken if
you could we've got
some seating arrangements over in the Civic Center or in
the council work
chamber because we're gonna be calling probably about 20 or
30 people because
all our speakers aren't in this room they're spread out
throughout throughout
the municipal complex so your cooperation that will be will
be greatly
appreciated at this time I would like to recognize that
senator Craig Estes is
here to join us and he represents district 30 has been
representing
distant this Denton County since 2001 and thank you sir
being here and and
would you have the floor thank you thank you mayor Watts
and sorry I'm a little
bit late and usually I'm on that side of the dice instead
of this side but I
realize how hard it is to keep comments to three minutes
but I'm gonna do the
near impossible have a senator only speak for three minutes
thank you sir
appreciate you having me now appreciate the opportunity to
visit with all of you
I'm Craig Estes I currently serve the city of Denton and 14
counties in the
Texas legislature and I've been working with you and for
you for the last 12
years in the legislature I've had a hand in passing both
landmark reforms on
eminent domain and also the first in the nation oil and gas
hydraulic
fracturing fluid disclosure bill so I know a little bit
about this subject I'm
aware that some Denton citizens are have concerns and
questions about the safety
of hydraulic fracturing and you know I just like to call it
really what it is
it's it's natural gas drilling today and I respect those
concerns however the
state legislature and the state and federal government
agencies have studied
this issue for years and without any determination of
harmful effects the
technology that we're talking about has been used safely
for 50 years there have
been zero confirmed cases of groundwater contamination the
EPA has found no link
between health in health issues and the Railroad Commission
has found no evidence
that supports that it's causing health issues oil and gas
drilling is regulated
by the state of Texas and by the Texas Railroad Commission
as you know and other
state agencies I firmly believe that the concerns with
hydraulic fracturing
should be addressed at the Texas legislature and or before
the relevant
state agencies the truth is an outright ban as one such
proposed here will have
in my opinion significant negative consequences I think
almost immediately
there would be a loss of local jobs in the oil and gas
industry and then I
think there would also it would negatively impact a
significant
significant percentage of local businesses as less people
have
discretionary spending but most importantly and this is
really why I
came all the way from Wichita Falls is to make this one
point a ban on oil and
gas drilling will adversely impact private property owners
a ban would
essentially become an eminent domain inverse condemnation
issue by taking
away a source or a potential source of income for the
property or mineral right
owner without just compensation is your state senator I'm
worried that the city's
current drilling ban proposal conflicts with constitution
ally protected rights
which in turn could expose the city of Denton to lawsuits
and costly damage
awards from this inverse condemnation having worked to pass
most of our state's
reforms on eminent domain I am extremely troubled by this
potential
infringement on property owners rights and the possibility
that the city of
Denton could owe millions of dollars in damages to both
private and public
plaintiffs I'm also aware that the city of Denton has
recently developed a
comprehensive drilling ordinance I want to tell you that I
want to want to work
with you to help remedy the compliance problem in the state
legislature there's
no there's no basis in rational analysis or actual evidence
for the banning of
oil and gas drilling that uses hydraulic fracturing and
with all due respect I
think it would be unwise for you to ban this procedure
sound science should drive
these important policy decisions so I encourage this
council to thoughtfully
consider the damaging consequences of an outright ban in
your city limits and I
lend my comments by saying one of the things wisest pieces
of advice I've
gotten in my 12 year career in the state legislature and
that was when in doubt
about it just vote no so mayor Watts thank you and I
appreciate your time all
of you council members God bless you we have a few council
members just have a
question is that absolutely councilmember Gregory senator
thank you
for coming great job of keeping it almost to three minutes
I'm impressed I
practice today in front of my wife I really do appreciate I
understand exactly
your concern about private property rights the position
that our council has
been put in on a number of occasions is the conflicting
interest of the property
rights of the mineral owners and the property rights of the
surface estate
owners that has been an ongoing and deeply divisive kind of
conflict it is
they're both property right that's right and you have to
balance that somehow so
as a as a as a lawmaker at a higher level with more
experience what
suggestions would you have for this council on making that
balance more even
because at this point it feels like sitting at this level
that the state has
given a priority to the property rights of the mineral
owner over the property
rights of the surface owner and we have some issues of
wells being drilled
extremely close to homes under a variety of circumstances
and under a variety of
claims so close to homes that that people cannot live their
normal lives so
what advice would you give to us to balance the those those
rights of the
of the surface on well I guess I would just reiterate my
remark that I stand
ready to work with you to try to work out some of these
compliance problems
with your ordinance and whatever the state can do obviously
you want to sit
in your seat of the authority that you've been given and
make sure that you
you know treat people the way you want to be treated and
absolutely if if
somebody's right up next to your house and rattling the
bricks that's not
that's not good yeah so I don't have a specific answer for
you but I think that
an outright ban is an overreach and I think working on ways
to to make sure
that people are compliant with your city ordinance and
other states it you know in
a lot of ways it's a groundbreaking thing that y'all are
doing here and so
I'm interested in working with you on that well thank you
and I look forward
to thank you a councilmember road thank you mayor thank you
for coming senator
you're not surely appreciate your service and your time
dedicated to the
state of Texas and I just wanted a follow-up question
because you've
mentioned it twice and I'm just not sure what you mean by
it and that is about
the compliance problem that you point out what do you mean
by that well I hear
that you have an ordinance and that certain operators have
not from an
operator work with well within that ordinance and so I'm
here to tell you
that my doors open to you all to figure out if there's
anything the state needs
to do great thank you look forward to you bit councilmember
Hawkins thank you
mayor thank you senator I had to say something if you were
up here I just
wanted to thank you for coming here and the one good thing
that has happened is
everybody is together in a room finally ready to really
talk about this and I
know that this is a difficult thing but I did want to paint
a picture we us as a
city we felt very lonely trying to deal with this issue
without the state's help
and I would just really encourage you walking away from
here we need help from
the state and whatever side you are on there we've had
testimonies from moms
with kids who feel like their children can't go in their
backyards anymore and
those sorts of things I just want those things there they
seemed very real to
the residents of Denton I just really wanted to thank you
for coming up here
and being willing to deal with us and help us so I just
wanted to say thank
you so it's a it'll be my pleasure to work with you in the
future thank you
senator thank you very much thank you here thank you for
coming our next
peeper speaker will be representative Myra crown over who's
okay all right yes
we sure will we'll go to speaker at least numbered five is
David is it
Martin oh thank you my name is David Martino and I'm from
Dallas Texas 79 83
crude court and I'm a geologist and drilled wells in Denton
County almost 40
years ago when I first started drilling we don't thank both
the mayor and the
councilman thank you all for allowing me to make a brief
presentation about the
proposed fracking ban resolution within the city of Denton
as you've seen from
my previous emails proposed fracking within the city limits
and made with oil
and gas which was this brochure right here I attempted to
clarify some of the
misinformation presented about hydraulic fracturing and
inform you of the
critical need and use of fossil fuels oil and gas in our
everyday life and what
makes great industrialized nation we live in one area that
I had not
mentioned or clarified was the chemicals used in fracking
of course the enviro
was want you to think that they are deadly chemicals but as
you can see from
the sheet I gave you a fluid situation which is this one
the small amounts of
chemicals less than point four nine percent of the initial
total fluid used
in a frack job are the exact same chemicals used everyday
life and to
process food make cosmetics dishwasher just to name a few
Texas passed House
Bill 3328 years ago that requires all wells drilled in fact
must report the
chemicals used in frack focus these frack chemicals are
being used to reduce
friction increase viscosity lower pH and control the iron
content just to name a
few other uses as stated earlier some of these chemicals
are used to wash your
dishes clean your commode waste treatment plant you name it
they're used
for everything obviously the famous trade secret fluid of
chemical has
received a lot of concern actually despite this scare
tactic the fact
remains water contaminations from fracking have never
occurred all
hazardous constituents of hydraulic fraction additives must
be disclosed in
a material safety data sheet MSDS required by the Occup
ational Safety and
Health Administration OSHA these data sheets are stored on
site during the
frack job and are available upon request from the proper
authority chemical
companies can apply for certain trade secret protection but
must comply with
the MSDS recloser disclosure requirements and all trade
secret
additives must be reported to the state for emergency
response in medical
situation whether it should be noted that federal law
protects proprietary
trade secrets and confidential business information and the
criteria for how
this information is reported on the MSDS is rule 29 code
federal regulations 1910
appendix D chemical abstract service number which are
considered proprietary
or trade secrets are known to the state the city of Denton
and the country has
OSHA protecting it from the dangerous drugs and chemicals
we've been drilling
fracking and completing wells believe it or not for 150
years which was first
fracture was in 1866 thousands of men and women in the
field work every day
according to the Bureau of Labor statistic the oil and gas
industry is
not even in the top 25% of industries or businesses that
has lost time because of
illnesses and accidents a ban on fracking is the same as a
ban on drilling
which would be catastrophic to your city to our state and
the country and our
everyday life banning fracking would be just like me
selling your car but then
I you can't have the tires to go with it thank you thank
you we will now call
speaker number six okay all right so all right number six
is it
Miley Bush Miley I'm sorry I apologize I'm Miley Bush I
live at 4501 Lacewood
Drive in the meadows of Hickory Creek subdivision here in
Denton the
industry has been given an opportunity to speak to talk
about how they see
fracking from their frac site free homes and offices about
how they think that a
bunch of outside agitators is trying to change the city of
Denton but they are
wrong the people of Denton are standing up for Denton
perhaps the industry should
remember that most revolutions against entrenched oligarch
ies take the oligarchs
by surprise it never occurs to them that the citizens could
actually rise up and
storm the gates and they are genuinely surprised when it
happens surprise I
hope that the industry representatives will stick around to
hear what the
citizens have to say about fracking about how people's
lives have been
negatively impacted and maybe actually listen because we
are storming the gates
these are my children they are why I'm here they are not
here because it is
past their bedtime I am NOT an outside agitator I don't
work for a liberal
environmental group I am NOT a terrorist an extremist or
being funded by Russia I
live in Denton and I'm just a mom and as a mom I have a
duty to protect my
children my home is sandwiched in between two pad sites
that were fracked earlier
this year you cannot fully understand what living this
close to a frac site
is like until it happens I can tell you about how it is
dirty and smelly and
loud and scary but you really can't truly understand it
till you live it it's a
nightmare since the fracking started my children have had
headaches coughing and
nosebleeds in the beginning we kept the kids inside except
for to go to and from
school my four and six year old couldn't play in their own
backyard because
simply breathing the air caused them to cough all night as
if that weren't
enough then the nosebleeds started my son who had
previously had one or two
nosebleeds is now getting them at least once a week and he
has started hiding
them from me when I do see a bloody nose he looks at me and
he says mama I
promise I didn't do anything to make my nose bleed it
breaks my heart that
something like this is happening to him and he doesn't
understand and he thinks
that he is doing something wrong because of fracking I'm
going to spend the rest
of my life worried about what the long-term health effects
are going to be
to my children the nightmare never ends if the industry
truly believes the
myriad health problems that are occurring in my
neighborhood in areas
like it aren't fracking related then they should have to
prove it they came
into my neighborhood and then my kids got sick then the
coughs got worse then
the nosebleeds started they need to prove to me that it's
not because of
what they are doing not the other way around industry has
tried to cover up
the harmful effects of fracking through intimidation but we
are no longer
intimidated the current research that proves not only air
and water
contamination but earthquakes and health issues will not go
away just because you
ignore it fracking is a dirty and dangerous practice done
by an industry
that repeatedly puts profit over people and refuses to be
regulated in any
meaningful manner they are bullies and they may have more
money but they have
no heart they don't care about Denton its people or its
economy they only care
about getting as much gas out as cheaply as possible
tonight you have an
opportunity to stand on the right side of history by
protecting your citizens
from fracking it is time to improve the future of Denton so
no other mama has to
feel like I do and worry like I do and cry like I do the
world is watching and
my neighborhood my family and my children are counting on
you to pass
this pan thank you we will now call representative Meyer
Crownover representative Crown represents district 64 Dent
on County and
his vice chair of the house energy resources committee and
chair of the
energy resources subcommittee on seismic activity thank you
for being here I'm
honored to be here and I thank you all for the attention
and time that you have
spent to this I actually had to sign a surgery this week
and it was a
directional drilling up into my head so if my voice is
funny that's the deal so
we have drilling of all different kinds here anyway I am
honored to be here with
each of you tonight and many close friends and I know the
time and the
energy that you each put into this I respect very much the
time that the
council has spent coming up with a good ordinance to
protect Denton to make sure
that all the voices were heard and to listen and I know the
hours and hours
and hours that you and your staff have put in this trying
to get it right and I
know it is we call it at the legislature threading the
needle it's so important
to thread that needle carefully so one of the main things
people always come
with me we ought to pass a law that does this and you have
to always think for
every good intention there are many times unintended
consequences that you
wish didn't happen so I know each of you and I know how
thoughtful in the time
and attention that you're spending on this and I thank you
and I know it's a
hard job with no easy answers so I believe though that to
better understand
where we are today there are a couple of key things to
remember and they're
absolutely key and one of them is that in Texas there are
two different types
of land ownership and I was talking with staff and I said I
bet not one in in ten
Texans understand the two types you think when you buy a
piece of property
you buy that piece of property it goes to the middle of the
earth right I mean
and I know our realtors 15 years ago realtors in Denton
Texas had no idea
who owned the mineral rights I had a piece of property and
there was no even
indication I grew up out in the Permian Basin and the one
thing it's almost like
you know whatever you do don't sell the mineral rights you
can sell the surface
but do not sell the mineral rights so I grew up with that
in my background
growing up in the Permian Basin I was an oilfield brat but
I think we all have to
understand the difference between the surface rights that
you're standing on
and the mineral rights and the mineral rights are the
dominant estate and you
know you you may not like that law but that's the law and
we have to deal with
that and this is not some little tweak law that we could
fix the whole economy
of the state of Texas is based on that so as inconvenient
as it may be sometime
I know farmers have a terrible problem out in West Texas
with somebody else
owning the mineral rights and they'll come in and leave the
gate open our hunt
on the property because they have access to the property so
this has been this is
not new to Denton the oil and gas industry came to Denton
in the recent so
we are not educated about we're not used to that and there
's my three minutes but
I would just like to say thank you so much Senator Estes
and myself and Mayor
Watts are pledged to work diligently on on a fix to this I
know people have we
have had some bad actors I have spent a lot of time I was
one of the authors of
the fracking bill that required the people that were fr
acking to list what
they were putting in the ground that was that is
legislation that is looked at
all over the United States and copied I was also the single
author of a bill
that required oil and gas companies to clean up before they
left because we were
a lot of those wildfires that happened seven years ago were
because oil and gas
companies had not pulled up their electric lines and when
the wind beat
the lines around it caused many of those wildfires so we
have taken care of this
we all want a good clean oil and gas industry in Texas we
all benefit from it
and sometimes we have really good actors that are good
neighbors and just like
somebody with a barking dog it depends on us all being good
neighbors to each
other so thank you for your time and attention and I
promise to work
diligently with Senator Estes to find a finely crafted fix
for this that won't
create it create unintended consequences if possible we
have a couple questions
if you don't mind councilmember Johnson thank you mayor My
ra thank you so much
for coming I think it's it shows a lot about you that you
would come on the
heels of surgery and be here with us and as a dent night
yourself I know that
you're aware of what we've been dealing with here and you
know not not only us
up here but our staff our citizens have been dealing with a
complicated issue
and a pretty helpless feeling and the fact that you and
Senator Estes would
come here tonight personally and pledge to help us I think
is very very it says
a lot about both of you personally but it's important to us
too because it is a
helpless feeling when you when you don't know what your
rights are you know as an
individual property owner and certainly as a city I think
we've struggled a
little bit with what can we do what can we not do and so
the the pledge of help
from both of you at the state level it means a lot to me I
think I'm sure it
means a lot to this council and I just want to thank you
for that pledge and
everything you've ever pledged to us and then you followed
through on so I'm sure
you'll follow through on this one too thank you thank you
very much
councilmember Gregory thank you mayor thank you
representative Pradover for
being here we go back a long way we do we do and for such
young people that's
true and I appreciate the work that you've done for for
Denton I think the
reason that we're here tonight and I think the reason that
the petition has
come is because there are a lot of folks in Denton who felt
like that we up here
have not done a good job of threading that needle that
somehow we have not
done enough to protect the the quality of life for
neighborhoods and for
individuals living in homes where where gas wells have been
drilled within two
300 feet of their homes I look forward to working with you
and getting support
from the state I think that the thing that I would hope and
ask of you as
you're working in Austin is to make sure that as we go
forward that that the
state legislature continues to recognize the need for
municipalities to have some
authority to to work to thread that needle and thread it in
a way that that
is reasonable for both sides and and tries to maybe do a
little bit to
balance that that unequal balance because of the dominant
estate that the
state has given to the mineral owners so help us out if
there are some attempts
this fall or next next spring to to dial back the authority
of cities I would
really appreciate your help with that you know the thread
ing the needle is
really hard the bill that I worked on to requiring oil and
gas companies to clean
up their debris they were leaving tons and tons and tons of
their debris on
people's property and it was a four-year process so I'm
afraid government moves
very slowly but I promise to you it will be at my attention
and you know I think
a good analogy is when we build we're expanding I-35 now
there is a lot of pain
and suffering going on for property owners that happen to
be right on I-35
it's a necessary thing it's an important thing it is
absolutely vital to our
economy but but there are some people that will suffer
through this
unfortunately and you try to be as respectful as you can
and so many times
just being simply a good neighbor changes the whole you
know you can stand
some suffering if somebody at least says I'm sorry is there
anything I can do and
communicates with you and I think that's where some places
we have gone wrong
here so thank you Mike what one other one other thing to
ask is you might have
I don't know if you were here for it but a former executive
director of the Texas
Railroad Commission had a difficult time trying to give us
any information about
how often that organizations inspectors actually inspect
gas wells it would be
great if if you would through your office help us find out
about what kind
of inspection protocol they are doing for the gas wells
here in Denton County
and in Denton specifically I think that would be that would
be good to know if
they're really on on the job and on the spot or if they are
spread tooth in like
a lot of other inspectors might be well actually that was
one of my major jobs
this last session I worked to get 25 million extra dollars
to the Railroad
Commission because it is their job to regulate and they
were shorthanded so
it's too important of an industry it brings in too much
money to say that we
can't come up with with 25 million dollars and you're just
gonna have to
play hurt that is unacceptable we do need us and I had
another bill that
expanded the number of pipeline pipeline inspectors so it
is on my radar believe
me we did a study though we looked at when they were
worried about the benzene
from the wells and so we looked at the results that had
come in on benzene and
then we took eight bars where they were still smoking in
Austin and the benzene
from the wells was tiny the benzene from the bars was huge
so you know sometimes
you you you worry about the wrong thing so don't go in a
smoking bar if you're
worried about benzene thank you for your time just one real
quick comment thank
you representative for coming really do appreciate and I
appreciate your pledge
and senator Estes pledge because we're basically here
because we crafted an
ordinance in 2013 and based upon state law current state
law we're virtually
unable to enforce some of them based upon some some state
property doctrine so
we look forward to working with threading that needle to
find a solution
that will meet the needs of the people because I haven't
seen how many people
are in the Civic Center but I believe both of those places
are almost full so
this is a very important issue and I believe that the
railroad Commissioner
Smitherman's letter referred to this may be popping up in
other communities well
the way to prevent that is to really find a solution that
really meets the
interests of the people who are near these particular
industrial sites that
suffer from you know some health effects and the like so I
appreciate your pledge
I appreciate Senator Estes pledge to to work with us and I
'm sure we will be
speaking with you about that but thank you very much for
coming to this
important important hearing thank you very much thank you
thank you thank you
just to give you some heads up we're going to have a couple
more speakers
then we're going to take about a five or ten minute break
and also just what I
want to do is call after we come back from the break we're
going to be
looking at numbers 21 through 38 so if you're not here in
the room if you could
just make your way here in a few minutes then we'll we'll
find you some some
places to sit right now we're on number seven which is Rh
onda love
thank you good evening council my name is Rhonda love I
live at 1921 Holly Hill
Lane in Denton Texas in late 2011 two colleagues and I
wrote a paper on health
effects of gas drilling and fracking we presented it to the
task force and we
presented it to City Council since that time the research
has become even more
compelling that hydraulic fracturing and human health don't
mix very well we've
heard tonight people contend that it can be done safely we
've had calls for sound
science I didn't intend to leave this with you I think we
emailed you the link
this is 70 pages of sound science peer-reviewed research
which says
hydraulic there is no safe way of doing hydraulic fract
uring for human health
solid science these researchers published this this month
so it's new I don't
expect you've read it I don't imagine too many people have
read it yet they
discussed 15 areas of problems between hydraulic fracturing
and human health I
won't name all of them but among the top ones were air
pollution water
contamination and noise and light pollution things that we
have experienced
here in Denton and have heard many testimonies from many
families who are
living with this essentially in their living rooms in Texas
the documented
problems have included the creation of a private nuisance
by producing air
pollution that included VOCs and diesel fuel other research
problems include a
281 increase in VOCs and a 69% increase in nitrous oxide
which creates ozone
researchers at the University of Texas have decried the
lack of sufficient
monitoring they have talked about this in both the Eagle
Ford shale and the
Barnett shale they talk about the lack of monitoring for
benzene toluene
ethylbenzene and xylenes other areas in the US have report
reported that fracking
chemicals have resulted in infant deaths lower development
and IQ scores in
children increased blood cancers increased breast cancer
increased
premature birth low birth weight babies and lower newborn
responsiveness at the
apgar scars 30,000 researchers organizations representing
30,000
researchers in New York wrote an open letter to the
governor of New York
particularly discussing air pollution we all know that Dent
on has terrible
problems with air pollution in fact the American Lung
Association rates us an F
that's as low as it gets on ozone they also say that we do
not monitor for
for a particulate matter that is something that we had
anticipated would
be done it has not been done we have among the highest
rates of childhood
asthma in the country childhood asthma is not something
that you grow out of it is
not a minor illness it is expensive it can cost more than a
thousand dollars a
year just for cost of treating the disease that doesn't
include the
medicine that just means going to your doctor it costs
hundreds of dollars for
families and lost business time at work the children miss
school they miss other
activities it is an expensive illness so when you are
looking at the cost and
doing cost-benefit analyses don't forget the cost of
childhood asthma there are
over 100,000 children in North Texas who have asthma that
was reported in the
cook children's I could not find exactly how many of that
hundred thousand live
in the city limits of Denton but we can imagine that
because Denton is one of
the larger cities in the north central Texas area that
there are quite a few
thank you very much we have a question yes councilmember
Gregory there's love
I don't know if I should ask you this question or one of
the other organizers
of the petition sure so if if if I should direct it to
someone else of course I'm
curious about as I look at the definitions and as I look at
the the
initiative basically the the heart of it says it shall be
unlawful for any person
to engage in hydraulic fracturing within the corporate
limits of the city when I
read the definitions and I'm reading the definition of
hydraulic fracturing it's
talking about a process using water your understanding what
is banned is all
fracking banned is just fracking you that's our intention
to ban all
fracking yeah well in the future okay thank you very much
yes Kathy McMillan might be the better one to address okay
well the next speaker
might be able to you know expand on that thank you thank
you thank you we'll have
one more speaker and then we'll take our break the next
speaker is number 8 Adam
Briggle
well I have a PowerPoint but I don't know how to pull it up
is this thing a
touch oh just as an update we've got two more speakers
after mr. Briggle that are
representing the petitioner so we'll take our break after
we've heard from
those final two thank you go ahead mr. Briggle okay my name
is Adam Briggle I
live at 1315 Dartmouth place in Denton and I want to
mention that this event is
being live tweeted at hashtag pass the ban that's hashtag
pass the ban okay
I'll touch on the costs and benefits of fracking in my
three minute talk
sadly the people of Denton know all too well the costs they
know it by McKenna
Park they know it were a blowout forced the evacuation of
homes they know what
your near UNT where fumes cause headaches and nausea and
they know where
Miley lives when we do cost-benefit calculations we tend to
only include
what's easy to count we don't count the externalized costs
we don't count the
lost peace of mind for parents worrying about their kids
what is it worth to
feel safe in your home we've got to put that on the scales
too of course the
industry ignores the costs and speaks only about the
benefits like big
tobacco they play the denial game now I'm not sure we
should take economic
advice from the industry in two weeks as you can see here
they wasted more money
on a meaningless annoying political stunt than it cost to
install a vapor
recovery unit which would reduce toxic emissions in Denton
for years but fine
you know what let's play by their rules they talk about how
fracking is a
windfall for Texas yet didn't has done far more than its
part for the state's
economy even if we crammed all of Texas's Texas's gas wells
into the 7% of
the state that is urban Denton would still host more than
three times the
number of wells as the average city in that scenario and
even when the ban is
in place we'll continue to do our part for the state's
economy with all of our
wells still in production they also talk about how fracking
is a boom for Denton's
economy but that's a lie that we do more than our fair
share for the state we get
little in return tax revenues from Denton gas wells total
less than 1% of
the city's budget the mining sector employs just 0.27% of
Denton's
workforce indeed fracking is a drag on our economy gas well
infrastructure
makes new development more costly in the skilled workforce
we want to attract is
looking for places with a high quality of life poisonous fr
acking 200 feet
from your home doesn't quite fit that bill they'll find
jobs elsewhere now
most of the mineral wealth from Denton gas wells goes to
outsiders fracking
operators none of which are based in Denton take over 70%
absentee mineral
owners take 20% more Denton families own just 2% even
according to the industry
the cost of the ban will amount to a mere fraction of a
percent of Denton's
budget yet all they talk about is how much revenue we stand
to lose in so doing
they are treating us like just another commodity they're
putting a price on our
health and safety our right to enjoy our property and the
livability and
character of our Denton these are the costs of not banning
fracking what are
these things worth to you and why do they think we'd sell
them so cheaply
thank you thank you mr. Brigham we've had a question from
councilmember road
yeah thanks dr. Brigham appreciate your presentation and
certainly no matter
what people think on this particular issue you've spent an
enormous amount of
time these last really three years helping the city and
advising the city
so I just want to publicly thank you for all you've done to
help everyone in the
city understand this it's really a true role as a professor
in our community so
thank you for that thank you you mentioned the production
fracking
distinction and just for everyone's education from the
point of view of the
the ordinance being presented to us tonight it is calling
for a ban of
fracking but how will that if it will at all affect
existing producing wells do
those get shut down and everything just stops or how can
you explain that
distinction right no that's not the case this ban would not
turn off some spigot
on producing gas wells those wells would continue to
produce the royalties that
they're producing would continue the distinction is they
could not go in and
refract those wells at a future date right and what are you
hearing out there
I mean a lot of people want to paint this as just a bunch
of liberal crazies
that are supporting this ban but you've been out there
collecting signatures and
again for our point of view because we've got to make a
decision tonight is
that the case I mean demographically what are you seeing in
terms of talking
to the people and they're feeling on this particular
subject because imagine
folks gathering petition signatures have a good pulse on
the feeling of our city
at this point yeah I'll tell you what this is not a
partisan issue this is
about the health and safety of your children in your
neighborhood and that's
something everybody gets behind that's what we've seen I
also want to say about
the liberal comment you made certainly not the case that
everybody's liberal by
far there's a lot of conservatives behind this because
really what we're
doing is talking about protecting property rights which is
a founding
principle of conservatism and we also have a lot of libert
arian supporters who
are in favor of small government because government doesn't
get any smaller than
the city level right thank you yeah councilmember Gregory
Dr. Brickle thank
you also I want to express my thanks because of the ongoing
research that
you've done must have spent hours and hours and the effort
that you've made to
educate all of the folks in town about this do you do you
have these slides
that you've presented in a printed form or can you get
those in a printed form
yeah I can get those to you and I should mention that this
is a paper that I'm
working on with professor Matthew Frye who's in geography
department at UNT
which is currently under peer review the nice thing about
these numbers though
there's open source you can everybody can go to the Denton
Central Appraisal
District and find the same numbers but yeah I'll get this
to you for sure but I
appreciate the work and the research yeah thank you council
member Eagle break
thank you mayor first off I want to thank you for the work
you've done over
the years and I know you started out trying to bring
various parties together
and get information from all sides I know you had more than
one meeting it
open meeting to the community hosted at UNT you brought in
industry
representatives you brought in those opposed to to drilling
etc and you
brought in some environmentalists to talk about the whole
nature of the
environment near quality in Denton what what brought you to
the point that you
moved from sort of providing information and and working
with the community to go
and I've had it I'm gonna go work towards a band well I'll
tell you
immediately and then I'll step back a bit the immediate
moment was when I was
handing out flyers in Miley's neighborhood and I saw a
school bus
dropping off kids right next to that fracking site and I
saw moms grab their
hands and run home as quickly as they could because they
were scared of it and
I said what if that was Gracie or Lulu right my kids so
that was the immediate
moment now if you step back it was after years when we
crafted this ordinance
working together and it's right I brought in the industry I
invited Ed
Ireland to give a talk in my class and we had John Tantara
give a talk for DAG
the group and we worked hard at it and then we adopted an
ordinance with a
1200 foot setback and then fracking happens at UNT closer
than that fracking
happens down at Southridge closer than that fracking
happens in Miley's
neighborhood and then we discover all of these plats where
fracking has already
been permitted on 30% of the land area of the city and we
realize this is going
to happen again and again and again and the strategy of
trying to make it
compatible with other areas in town just won't work I mean
in our city code we
don't even let a bakery set up in residential areas but
here we have this
heavy industry it just doesn't make sense when you come
down to it that's
the problem thank you dr. Briegel thank you very much for
speaking thank you
number nine is Sharon Wilson
thank you Sharon Wilson 101 north Greenville Allen Texas
Texas is not the
only state where local governments have considered or
passed limitations on
hydraulic fracturing in Pennsylvania the state Supreme
Court recently upheld
communities rights to regulate you have copies of a seven-
page legal opinion
from the lawyer who successfully defended Pennsylvania City
's rights to
regulate fracking and he says that based on Texas law Dent
on has a good
case to prevent to prohibit fracking this opinion lays out
the big picture of
a city's right to protect its citizens private economic
interests are important
but courts have found that they have to be balanced with
local government's
interests in protecting public health safety property
values and water supplies
if the drilling industry sues didn't claiming that this
ordinance is an
unconstitutional takings of their drilling rights I assure
you legal
assistance will come in order to show that this ordinance
is a taking under
Texas and federal law the proponents of this industry
industrial activity would
have to show either that the regulation eliminates all
economically beneficial or
productive use of the property or that the regulation
creates a taking under
factors established by the US Supreme Court that balance
private economic
interest with companies rights communities rights to
protect the public
proponents of fracking would fall flat under either test
first a prohibition on
hydraulic fracturing does not eliminate all economically
beneficial use it does
not even eliminate all mineral extraction uses or impact
the existing
production from wells that have been for act already many
other lawful uses of the
property will remain second under the Supreme Court's multi
-factor approach
didn't interest in producing protecting water supplies and
other community
interest would be a strong basis for a prohibition on fr
acking while at the
same time the prohibition would have a limited impact on
mental rights owners
because it would not affect existing royalty streams
flowing from already
producing wells nor would in a packed the extraction of oil
and gas without
the use of hydraulic fracturing finally the city can persu
asively argue that no
one has a reasonable expectation to invest in an activity
that is inherently
polluting and injurious to the community and that at a
minimum carries
uncertain risk due to the current state of science if the
industry had operated
in Denton with anything approaching reasonableness we
wouldn't be here but
they haven't so we're here now the resort to what they do
best bullying and
scaremongering thank you have one question councilmember
road thank you
mrs. Wilson a question about and I've heard you mention
this before tonight
and that's the this claim that legal assistance will come
and I've heard that
from other people as well and I think some other cities
that have gone down
this route elsewhere in the United States have found some
help as I talked
to a lot of folks who are concerned about this issue they
feel like they're
hanging up with it is the cost that the city will incur to
try and fight what
will be a very clear fight from mineral rights owners the
state perhaps the oil
and gas industry from all sides can you go into more detail
about this claim of
support that might come our way if we were to go down this
path I really
cannot go into detail because attorneys have certain legal
things that I don't
understand about commitments but all you have to do is look
at for instance
Dryden I would look at the town of Dryden and see
comparable help coming
thanks thank you thank you next speakers number 10 Kathy
McMullen if if you're
not gonna have a present are you gonna have a PowerPoint
presentation okay I
just want to make sure because we clear the screen to show
the timer up there
but okay okay okay okay okay this is a blowout that
occurred in Denton that
shut the airport down and that evacuated homes it was over
14 hours and no state
violation was issued I'm just gonna run through these are
just some fracking of
what you can see that the families had to endure and what
we had to endure over
by my neighborhood also I just want to let the council know
that it wasn't too
hard to find that two thousand nine hundred two thousand
nine hundred and
sorry two thousand nine hundred and I can't get it right my
head's just gone
blank there was two hundred ninety six thousand active
whales went uninspected
in Texas in 2011 I just wanted to get that out there also
we went through the
gas well plats there were issued before the gas well
department was started and
we stopped about a third of the way through and we found at
that time that
30% of the land use area inside the city limits can be
drilled in perpetuity
another thing and I want you to understand that this
industry is
self-regulating and self-reporting now I thought of a long
spiel that I could
give you but you guys have all heard it for me for hundreds
of times for
hundreds of years so what I thought I would do to you is
through open records
I rec I obtained the calls that they got for complaints on
from the gas wells on
the first one the complaint stated that there's a very loud
grinding noise
coming from the gas well area behind his house complaints
stated that they are
supposed to be done by 1900 hours but it's now starting up
and that was 2100
low frequency hum that's been going on since the beginning
of January complaints
stated that the noise from the gas well behind his house is
very loud complaints
stated that he's tried contacting the inspecting division
but cannot get an
answer or anyone to call him back he's very upset and
stated he will continue
to call back every 30 minutes until the issue is fixed the
complaint stated he
would like to speak with the sergeant about the problem
complaint someone
would like to measure decibels over by Acme brick where
they are fracking and
the noise is extremely loud caller is responding to a haze
over the
neighborhood and things that's related to gas well flaring
caller is
experiencing headaches and she would like someone to check
that out
caller stated report noise began began again from the gas
well and was told by
the front desk that they won't take the complaint caller
complained about noise
loud noise from the gas well located a good ways behind his
property caller
said it was a pipe that was connected to another pipe that
was shooting liquid
into the air caller said that the new gas well on vintage
Boulevard close to
Fort Worth Drive and there is a pipe that is shooting
something into the air
that is either water chemicals caller said there's a loud
working noise
coming from the gas well not supposed to work this late
also bright light at the
location shining into the caller's house calls regarding
the same issues said the
noise was getting louder company is working on a frack site
making loud
noise and there is a bad smell I'm gonna keep on till my
three minutes are up
because I've got pages I smell strong diesel fumes as I
retrieved my mail at
my home I saw a large water hose the kind of fire
department uses draining
water from the gas well site directly on to London Berry
and into the water
drainage system complaint regarding noise level and a
diesel odor at 4 a.m.
thank you thank you we have a question councilmember Engel
brecht thank you
mayor Kathy how long have you been studying this issue as a
resident of
it since June of 2009 how many times have you gone down
personally to the to
testify at a legislator as a legislative session or a
hearing six to seven and
that was at your own expense absolutely and no one would
ask you to do that you
did it on your own yes I did and how many emails have you
provided to us and
to other members of the community with information relative
to this issue
thousands okay yeah would you say that that you're pretty
well informed about
about fracking and well development indent way more than I
ever wanted to be
thank you councilmember Odin Kathy yeah thank you Kathy and
I kind of piggyback
on that because I think it's important for folks to realize
that I remember
following this issue before I was on council and it was
your neighborhood was
impacted over by McKenna Park off Bonnie Bray and just
paint for us a picture
because I think what's been interesting to see in Denton is
folks who were just
kind of normal average citizens doing their thing and then
something like this
comes behind their house and within a very short period of
time they become
quote-unquote activists but it's not like they were
necessarily activists
beforehand so can you give us just a brief biography again
to help us
understand and folks to understand how we got to this point
I know you're a
nurse by profession were you an activist prior to this
coming into your
neighborhood I mean I'm ashamed to say it but but I didn't
even vote in county
elections I mean I probably didn't even vote in mayor's
elections quite honestly
if I'm gonna be pretty blunt about it so we moved from a
really a really rural
area to move into the city because we realized in a rural
area we had to follow
the railroad Commission's rules and there was no that's
that's a free-for-all
I mean that's just the rodeo so we moved into town and we
had not been here very
long and I realized they were putting T-posts with pink
flags on them in a
part over by a park by my house and that's the first
indication to me that a
gas well is fixing to go in and I got in a panic and found
out that was the case
so I felt we went through every Avenue that we could with
the City Council we
contacted everyone we did demonstrations and the gas wells
went in to the club
into the worst possible location there I met up with dr. Br
ighill and Ed and
Rhonda the people that are in my group now and we went
through the avenues that
we felt we needed to go which was through the city to get
better ordinances
and we pursued that diligently I went to Austin and was
told to go back to your
city and you get a grassroots effort started and you talk
to your local
council people and that is where the change happens so that
is what I've done
and we kept telling you to go and you kept telling us to go
back to Austin
yeah and gas went up and I quit going Councilmember Gregory
thank you we've
received a lot of emails and in the last couple of weeks
more than just from you
Kathy and some of the emails have portrayed the folks
involved in the
petition drive and the band as being liberals from the East
Coast to the West
Coast I don't care about liberals or conservatives but did
you move here from
the East Coast I've never been to the East Coast have you
moved here from the
rest coast I've only been to the West Coast about 15 years
so where did you
move here from Marshall Texas Marshall Texas that's a hot
bed of liberalism it's
it's pretty brutal okay we had they ran us out of town okay
so here we ended I
do have a question for you Kathy and dr. Brickwood
mentioned that you know two
things that really motivated him to move this to the next
level which was the
petition drive was observing the school children as they
left the bus and sort
of the the panic that seemed to ensue as far as the parents
didn't know exactly
what what was going on in the atmosphere and and then you
just described that you
came again and again to this body of which I was a member
of back when the
well went in at Razor Ranch and tried to work with this
body to get ordinances
passed and went through and we went through an extensive
review regarding
the last oil and gas well ordinance in 2013 and it seems
like that what really
was the genesis from what I heard dr. Brighill explained
and what you're
saying is is that you've worked hard to get some ordinances
passed but it
doesn't seem like that we're either inept at enforcing them
or we can't
enforce them for I'm gonna throw the term out there because
we've all heard
it in this community you know the vested rights issue so it
's not so much that
you've been you guys seem like you're you're wanting to ban
fracking just to
ban for a hydraulic fracturing you're saying if this is the
only way that we
can deal with this issue because there's no other way to do
it this is what we
have to do is that a corrective sort of assumption on my
part or sort of
perception and I don't do this lightly I mean I don't give
my word lightly but I
give you my word we have done we have gone every Avenue
that we could possibly
go and when we were in the neighborhood that Molly lives in
we were just there
as an educational group we were just passing out flyers
saying here's how you
contact the TCEQ here's how you contact the Railroad
Commission if you see if
you hear a loud explosion and men running the other way
that's a bad thing
that's all we were there doing and when we saw children not
going outside to
play I was out there that day with Adam when those kids got
off the school bus
and I broke down tears and you realize the fight has come
to this yeah and so
when the when the well went in advantage in about 187 feet
where we just passed
an ordinance with a setback of 1200 feet it's like that's
it it's over yeah yeah
that's okay it's probably been building up for about five
years sure sure well
really thank you for being here and speaking and thank you
for your passion
in this community and your care and concern for this
community thank you
very much thank you
all right at this time we're gonna take about a ten minute
break I won't let you
know the restroom facilities in this building are fairly
limited so if you
would like 2205 Belmont Park Drive in Denton my background
I'm a chemical
engineer degree from Missive State University I'm a
registered professional
engineer and in three states I've operated gas plants I've
been around
every phase of gas crude oil production whatever most of my
thunder was stolen
by our elected officials relating how natural gas from a
from a regular
formation is no different whatsoever from gas that's
produced from a
fract well one of the previous speakers spoke and says ethy
l benzene was not
measured toluene was not measured benzene was was minor
well you don't
find ethyl benzene in natural gas you don't find toluene in
gas it's not
there if you find very few aromatic compounds in natural
gas so people make
decisions on items that they have no information about and
know very little
about I had a Democratic precinct chair come to my Rose
Garden I have a large
Rose Garden on 1301 Haggard Lane and she's telling me you
can't process you
you watch out for the the produce water because radioactive
there's too many
people making comments that has no state there's no science
to back it up and
like I said I support everything our elected officials have
said and I'm
totally against Ben Frank I see none thank you and and I
want to alert the
audience that sometimes the the bell is not working it's
intermittent when the
three minutes is up so if you could just you know make a
notation on the screens
and if it doesn't then I'll I'll gently remind you as you
go over the next
speaker will be Marshall Smith number 22
hi thank you so much for allowing me to state I'm Marshall
Smith I live at 2016
Redwood place here in Denton I've lived in Denton for 45
years I really like it
here and I'd like to say to I'm speaking tonight on behalf
of myself my two
daughters their husbands and my three grandsons and I'm
bringing up issues
that it may seem kind of far afield from fracking in Denton
but I hope to show
that it really links into fracking in Denton I'm not a
scientist but I was a
science math student clear through a couple of years of
college I've been
fascinated by science my whole life I'm still very
interested in science which
is why I am a member of the Union of Concerned Scientists
and I don't know if
you all are familiar with that group but they strictly
study science they have no
political agenda they don't worry about some corporations
bottom line whether
it's up or down and the last few years they're very
concerned with global
warming which we now call climate climate change and the
link here is that
according to science and this is according to virtually
every climate
scientist on the planet that global warming is happening it
's being
impacted by human activity and that essentially all the
carbon that is in
the ground that's coal oil gas tar sands whatever needs to
stay in the ground a
little bit could maybe be used which is I mean our whole
society is built on
energy 20 years ago we should have been thinking about this
but anyways the way
this kind of relates to Denton too is basically the gas in
the Barnett shale
doesn't need to be extracted it would be better for all hum
ankind if it wasn't
extracted one of the symptoms of global warming is extreme
weather more frequent
and more severe storms I'm sure you all remember the
thunderstorm we had in
Denton about a month ago I think my house was perhaps one
of the close to
the epicenter I'm 71 years old I've been in a lot of
thunderstorms I've experienced a lot of hail I've never had
hail the size of a
base a softball or a grapefruit huge damaging hail houses
on my street are
still having their new roofs put on another impact of the
global warming is
that the weather patterns are changing I really like
broccoli you know what's that
got to do with fracking and Denton it has to do because
right now in California
the the area where most broccoli for the United States is
grown is under a severe
drought there's going to be very little broccoli in the
next couple of months
here in Denton and it's due to the shifts in the weather
patterns caused by
extracting gas oil coal the bottom line is it's down there
if it stays there all
these health challenges all these problems with noise and
everything else
go away thank you thank you thank you very much our next
speaker is 23 Marty
Alday state your name and address please good evening mayor
Watts and council
members my name is Marty Alday I am the executive director
of the Texas chapter
of consumer energy alliance our address is 2211 Norfolk
suite 410 in Houston
Texas 77098 I'm here representing the voice of energy
consumers we are in
opposition to the proposed ban on behalf of our 250 member
companies
representing every sector of the US economy our 400,000
individual energy
advocates nationwide over 30,000 of whom are proud Texans
we are urging the
council to vote no on the proposed ban and return to the
negotiating table
find a sensible way to continue developing energy in Denton
we think
you ought to hold operators to a high standard Texans lead
the nation both in
energy production and environmental standards too many
residents in Denton
in my opinion have not been made to feel like their
concerns have been heard or
been addressed we as consumers expect energy providers to
coordinate with
their communities where they operate so they can continue
to provide us the good
and services that we all rely on that make our lives better
so part of my
message tonight is to urge the operators here to do better
Denton can hold the energy industry to high standards of
health and safety and
environment and reap the economic benefits of drilling for
oil and natural
gas you can have both at the same time I also want you to
hold the petitioners to
high standards as well many of the folks who have been here
are quite obviously
local folks who are perhaps the people who I feel like or
probably are the
people who I feel like their concerns have not been heard
but I think the I
think these folks are also being encouraged by some folks
who in my
opinion or are sort of abusing your city charter for sport
they're doing it for
the fun of it and I think that's wrong and I think you I
want to call those
folks out I don't think you ought to be influenced by
misinformation I've heard
some of that this evening folks who tell you that it's too
hard or that it's
impossible to do both are presenting a false choice this is
Texas it is not too
hard we can do this here furthermore some of these probably
out of state well
some of these activists both local and out-of-state folks
would have the
people of Denton ignore the many benefits of hydraulic
fracturing brought
to Denton in Texas we want you to stand up for the best
interests of the city
council should develop a workable solution for all involved
you've heard
things about revenues I know that y'all are working on your
airport I think
that's a good investment of some of the revenues that you
've gotten these are
good jobs these are very high wage wage jobs Texas is the
envy of the world for
energy security this choice that y'all are making impacts
more than just the
citizens of Denton though this is nationwide Texas wide
geopolitical thank
you all right I see no questions I have a question yes or
party and maybe it's
more of a comment I certainly understand your comment about
holding the operators
to a higher standard but I'm not sure if you're aware but
that's that's what
we've been trying to do and that's exactly why we are where
we are and it's
not just because you're trying to ask for voluntary
compliance from the
operator but it's also we are unable to do that to a large
degree because of
just some some doctrines that are well established that we
need to work on so I
hear what you're saying but we've we've attempted that and
I think we heard
testimony earlier that that's exactly what was attempted on
you know day after
day after day they come to us they go to the state they get
told to come back
here we tell them to go down there so we we need to do more
than just ask them
for their voluntary compliance we need to be able to have
some teeth that we
can operate within the best interest of everyone so and I
would commend the
legislators who were here for their responsiveness and to
your concerns on
that I was impressed to hear them say that they were
committed to working with
y'all and helping with that as well sure I hear you I know
what you're saying
and sure I just wanted to make that comment because unless
unless you've
been here day after day in this environment right it's easy
to say
something like that but yet it's not if there's not a true
understanding of
what's going on we certainly have attempted to do that and
I don't give
up keep trying well we're gonna need some help on that yes
councilmember Engelbrecht thank you mayor yes I would
invite your organization
to provide us with information which would show us where
that where we have
teeth and as a matter of fact I would invite a member of
your organization to
come and meet with the industry that we have to deal with
here to directly
address them and we'd be happy to the problems there there
that have resulted
as a result of our attempts to deal with them yeah we're
happy to accept that
invitation thank you thank you any thank you thank you very
much
our next speaker will be 24 Brent Greenfield good evening
my name is Brent
Greenfield my address is 2210 Mid Lane 111 Houston Texas 7
7027 members of City
Council I provide the following comments as a multi-
generation Texan and
representative of Texas based Southgate resources 110,000
jobs six billion
dollars in local property tax revenue more than 30 million
dollars in Denton
City revenue nearly 40% of local economic growth these are
just a few of
the benefits that hydraulic fracturing in the Barnett shale
have provided so
far the question before you today thus provides a contrast
of two very
different paths for this community in the region with
implications for the
entire state and even the country at large we're going to
have a future
filled with prosperity economic growth good-paying jobs
budget surpluses and
affordable energy or are we going to head down a path
toward economic
hardship increasing unemployment budget deficits and rel
iance on more expensive
energy from other nations that don't have our best
interests at heart the
right path is clear citizens communities and businesses
across the region the
state and indeed the nation are watching closely those both
within and far beyond
this region who have agendas to stop oil and gas activity
wherever and whenever
possible are all watching closely as well make no mistake
tonight all eyes
are on Denton by voting against the adoption of the
proposed ban on
hydraulic fracturing an activity that has been in use for
nearly 50 years city
council can lead by sending a strong and clear message that
didn't choose as a
future of opportunity and prosperity that didn't choose as
a future whereby
Texas retains its status as one of the world's largest oil
and natural gas
producers with our energy coming from the gas fields of the
Fort Worth basin
rather than from the Strait of Hormuz and that didn't
understands that when
issues arise Texans come together with our can-do attitude
to find common
ground and reach common-sense solutions that enable energy
and economic
development we don't respond by permanently shutting things
down by
contrast those advocating for a ban argue that we must
either choose to
allow the development of our energy resources or protect
our environment and
forego the vital benefits that energy production provides
the region but as
other communities in Texas have demonstrated that choice is
as short-
sighted as it is false it is also important to note that
state agencies
such as the Texas Commission on environmental quality and
the Railroad
Commission exist in part for the very purpose of ensuring a
safe and
environmentally responsible development of our energy
resources members of city
council if there are issues to be addressed work with the
state work with
industry work with the leaders and citizens of this
community to resolve
specific and legitimate concerns but please don't embark
down a path that may
leave Denton's future generations worse off than its
previous ones help secure a
brighter future for Denton the region and the state by
voting against the
adoption of the proposed ban thank you we have a question
councilmember Rodin
thank you mayor you brought up some statistics and I think
that the economic
argument is one that's been kind of circulated around the
community a lot of
folks have gotten mailers about at the parhamen group you
cited 30 million
dollars in city revenue do you know where you got that
staff I can get that
for you they were all taken from publicly available sources
you don't
know which one so I don't have that specific but I can get
that you do you
know what our annual property tax revenue is from oil and
gas in the city
of Denton per year I know that the Barnett shale according
to public figures
has produced six billion dollars in local property tax
revenue in Denton for
2013 14 so only five hundred sixty one thousand dollars
just to point that out
this comparison to the 30 million dollars that you brought
out and I'd be
again I'd be happy to get those I'd appreciate it Steve
thanks absolutely
councilmember angle break first off just to carry further
with the councilmember
rodents comment that five hundred thirty one thousand
dollars is relative to a
hundred and three or four million dollar general fund
budget so it is tiny it is
a small percentage when we bandy about these larger numbers
I would appreciate
it if folks would indicate the number of years over which
that figure is is
relative it's certainly not one year it's probably a decade
or more and again
it mounts to less than 1% of our total revenues so let's be
clear about the
economic impact in terms of immediate tax benefit to the
city of Denton
secondly could you tell me Southgate resources what is that
yes it's a it's a
small organization registered in Texas that looks for
opportunities in business
development and oil and gas in particular and and and why
would they
come to Denton to to address the City Council I'm concerns
about what this
action could mean not only in didn't but throughout the
state if a band would
actually be imposed here is the first such band in the
state of Texas would it
be all right with you if I put a diesel generator 200 feet
from your back door
and ran at 24 hours a day I would say that we would
advocate I would say that
the best situation there would be to work again with
collaboratively with both
the industry the company involved with the city leaders
with the community with
the concerned citizens with the appropriate state officials
and agencies
to come up with the solution short of banning of practice
throughout the
entire and what does that resident do who's 200 feet away
while we're
collaborating over the next five years and has that
generator 200 feet from his
back door running 24 hours a day you see the conundrum we
have if you guys had
come up here and do a little ass-kicking with local
operators I think it helped
us a lot just to be frank what would you be willing to do
that I believe that we
can have economic development energy development and
environmentally sound
activities that can enable communities to thrive and
operate with both energy
development and again a healthy and safe environment and I
believe that working
together we can all make that happen and we can do that
without having to ban the
practice throughout the entire area we we've tried some of
that and that's why
those folks came to where they were so thank you appreciate
your comments
thank you councilmember Hawkins I'll try to follow that I
think where we're
sitting it's just difficult to in I mean this with all due
respect just when
we've been dealing with this you know day after day in work
session and close
you know years and all that and then when somebody from
outside of here has
kind of these 30,000 feet ideas we agree with you and I don
't mean to waste more
time I just think that's maybe where some of our feelings
are coming from
like that I mean we've been in this fight for a while now
so I'm just trying
I just want to express that so any other questions thank
you thank you thank you
I just want to also encourage us to maintain our deployment
civility
appreciate the spirited debate so Jim have some chocolate
thank you thank you
thank you the next speaker will be number 25 a Chris Faulk
ner good evening
my name is Chris Faulkner I'm the CEO of Brightland Energy
we're based in Dallas
Texas our address is 1910 Pacific Avenue I'm vastly
interested in what's
occurring here tonight not because I have financial
interest in Denton my
company does no business dealings and didn't owns no land
however the reason
I'm interested here tonight is very similar theme to the
last speaker what's
taking place here is more about the country and not just
about didn't or the
great state of Texas we could be as a nation a hundred
percent free of any
reliance on foreign oil or gas the next five years it's due
to the vast amounts
of resources locked up and shell formations in the state of
Texas in North
Dakota other parts of this country what to accomplish this
is going to take all
of us working together one community after another
continues to say not in
my backyard then before long the tsunami of exclusion could
jeopardize our
freedom as a country and will certainly hamper the economic
development of
communities who push it away we've heard from passionate
residents to not who
are truly upset and understand their frustration and I'm
here to listen as
well while the drilling rig is a temporary passing thing as
long as it
remains the industry must work closely with landowners
residents here from
Denton Texas and communities across the country to drill
and frack
responsibly and safely now I know this can be done in other
areas my company's
done it for ten years without incident or upset my
encouragement to you
residents and to the council is please do not close the
door on this revolution
that's taking place that's setting America free from its
energy dependence
on foreign oil and gas consider Loveland Colorado they had
the option in the last
two weeks to close the door by a citywide vote they chose
to continue to
allow responsible fracking with proper setback regulations
and strict
monitoring of the process that I believe in my opinion is
the best solution for
Denton and my company is available to assist in consulting
mediation meeting
with people whatever it takes to provide that at no
additional cost I will tell
you that I travel the world giving speeches on oil and gas
and I could tell
you the whole world is watching didn't text it's not
because I'm saying so I
was in the Middle East I was in Europe as factor our UK PR
firm called me a few
weeks back and said hey what is Denton Texas and so I will
tell you that this
message is much bigger than this community or this state
and I would fear
that if this was to occur and didn't make it at the first
fracking ban if you
will in the state of Texas others would follow and I think
that would be a
travesty done only for the state residents but also for our
country it
can be done safely it is being done safely cities across
the country
regulate it properly and and I would urge didn't to
consider additional
regulation if need be working with operators here looking
at other
communities for ideas and continue to look at this as a
much bigger picture
than just didn't Texas thank you we do have a question
councilmember Gregory some of our elected officials that
came to speak
said that part of the reason that we're here tonight has to
do with the fact
that there are some bad players in the industry and that
some of their actions
have generated a lot of frustration among neighbors among
the members of
the council who have been trying to negotiate in good faith
sure felt like
that that wasn't happening you remember the industry do you
have any standards
within the industry regarding self-regulation or dealing
with the the
the bad players that tend to hurt all of the the good
players that are trying to
to not only play by the rules but but even go above and
beyond the rules in
order to be good neighbors look I will agree with you that
we're only as an
industry as as good as the worst operator in the industry
right it
doesn't do anyone any good for an operator to not follow
procedure not put
safety as its highest standard it makes us all look bad I
agree with you on that
I think the Railroad Commission in the state of Texas does
a great job regulating
oil and gas I think the procedures they set the
requirements that we follow are
all done properly as fact most states look to Texas as the
foremost authority
on regulating energy development even other countries look
to us for our
standards so again I can't speak for everyone in the
industry but you are
right you know if you're dealing with a bad apple then it
makes us all look bad
and I think that that's why I mentioned for other
communities for didn't look at
other communities and how they regulate I get you guys I've
had problems here
with operators not following procedure setback rules change
and folks doing
what they wanted I guess if you will but it's not I mean
there's it's y'all's
job as a city to regulate what's occurring here and I've
heard multiple
times you guys have tried and you know it's like you're
kind of kind of giving
up but there's a lot of room from regulation to fracking
ban that's a big
it's a big leap that's a huge step to go from where you're
at to banning fracking
so I suspect it between now and November we're gonna be
working on more
regulations anyway and and I'm hoping to see you back here
testify about about
you want to as a representative the industry support the
city of Denton as
we as we find better regulations to protect our citizens I
'm happy to come
anytime you'd like me to come Councilmember Engelbrecht
thank you mayor
first off I just want to report I do have my chocolate good
thank you
greatness feed the beast I'll ask you the same question
would you want to lift
compressor diesel generator lift compressor 200 feet from
your backyard
for your back door running 24 hours a day for a short
period of time for what
the benefit could be sure I'm talking I live in the Barnett
Shaw live in South
Lake so I'm talking continuously I'm talking continuous 20
years or as long
as the well is there they put it I have wells all over my
in my neighborhood as
well so now the answer for me is yes I would have no
problem with the benefits
of our country with the generator in your 200 feet and you
live where South
Lake South Lake look the answer is you're going back to
regulation again okay
if you then you have proper setbacks from neighborhoods
keep in mind we drill
wells in the Barnett Shelf two miles away and we can target
you know seven
inches of 70 feet of pay so if you have an issue with that
here then that's
again back to proper regulation but the operator you see
since he has a vested
right because there was already a well drilled there so we
drill another one
and we refract the old one and it's you know it's marginal
well we need that lift
compressor to get it up voluntarily could they have gone
somewhere else a
little further away I think they could did they no they did
not and it's
occurred more than one time and so again we have that
operator issue and if we
could get some other operators to start sort of policing
their own folks it
might help us they need to be a good neighbor I don't
disagree with people
need to be a good neighbor we can all we're all in this
together banning
fracking is not going to fix what you just described I'm
just sort of telling
you how we got here I understand and that seems to be a
multiple recurring
tonight the description of this 200 feet setback what we're
talking about
tonight though has nothing to do with that oh I think it
has a lot to do with
it that's what brought those people out here and that's
what brought that that
thing here that's why we have this petition absolutely we
're entitled to
your any other questions thank you thank you thank you
Sharon I'm gonna say spice
it's a speech speech I'm sorry thank you
I would like you just to have it as a visual reminder that
we are not alone in
this my name is Sharon Spies I live at 7501 Stallion Street
here in Denton
I've lived in Texas 35 years and in Denton for 13 while
doing research on
fracking and the wastewater disposal derived from that
process questions
about seismic activity health issues arising with residents
and contaminated
water wells with in aquifers were a recurring theme the LA
Times last month
stated that up until 2009 Oklahoma had a 30-year average of
only two earthquakes
a magnitude of 3.0 higher per year since 2009 which is the
same time that
fracking and wastewater injection sites grew in number in
Oklahoma there have
been thousands of earthquakes it also states that the US Ge
ological Survey and
scientists at the University of Oklahoma and Brown
University link the November
2011 Prague Oklahoma earthquake sequence to drilling
operations a Dallas Morning
News article this past May suggests specifically that
wastewater disposal
injection sites contributed to the same series of quakes in
Prague this July
third science express links for massive injection wells to
the rapid rise in
earthquakes in Oklahoma City these quakes have caused
millions of dollars
of damage in 2012 Vermont was the first state to ban fr
acking in the importation
and storage of wastewater associated with fracking the
amazing thing is there
weren't any drilling projects underway in their state their
governor stated they
wanted to ensure they did not inject chemicals into
groundwater and a
desperate pursuit of energy on the website food and water
watch org there
is a list 26 pages long of cities states and entire
countries that had banned
hydraulic fracturing and wastewater disposal sites be it
injection sites or
reservoirs the one undisputed fact that it is that it takes
millions of gallons
of fresh drinking water per frack pretty devastating to our
already drought
burdened water supply I pose these questions to you how
much is it worth to
put the citizens of Denton at risk at risk of increased
earthquakes with
epicenters within a few miles instead of a few hundred
miles what economic impact
will that have on each of us when we have property damages
and evaluations of
our homes when we are at greater risk of health issues from
breathing the untold
number of chemicals associated with fracking flaring the
wells or dumping
the waste or drinking contaminated water when the waste see
ps into our aquifers
what about the businesses in town that when we have less
disposable income to
spend there because of the costs associated with these
risks I'm sure you
will hear that these things have not been proven or that
they are outright
won't happen but what if it's true wouldn't you as the Dent
on City Council
rather be proactive in protecting the citizens of Denton
wouldn't you rather
put the citizens before the oil and gas industry as one of
those citizens I
trust that you would I am asking you not only to ban fr
acking on any new wells
but all existing wells in the city I also ask you to ban
any importation or
storage of wastewater associated with fracking you have the
authority to do
it tonight and if you won't please put it on the ballot in
November I thank you
for your time thank you next speaker is number 27
Trisha Davis mayor councilman my name is Trisha Davis I'm
at 1122 Colorado
Street Austin Texas I'm here today representing royalty
owners residing
here in Texas and in other states as well as my family I'm
the president of
Texas Royalty Council and American Royalty Council we
advocate monitor and
educate royalty owners lawmakers and the general public on
mineral and royalty
issues for for background as it may have been forgotten or
never known by some
when our forefathers were planning what has become our
great nation it was
agreed to award the ownership of minerals to private
property citizens or
private citizens instead of to the state this unique
American model has helped
make us a strong nation we are today and has enabled
America to become the
world's dominant energy producer this private ownership
ownership is spread
across the nation benefiting families communities as well
as the state
throughout the years our population has migrated to the
urban setting when
elders die heirs may sell their family farms and or heirs
may sell their family
farms and ranches likewise moving to the cities sometimes
families decide to
retain mineral estate for future generations this can help
to reduce the
purchase price of surface properties or the surface estate
excuse me when this
happens property becomes a split estate today is an
opportunity to learn and
understand about this property ownership it's a personal
responsibility to be
informed when you buy and sell real estate hydraulic fract
uring is the only
viable method to accept access the vast majority of
minerals in the city of
Denton hydraulic fracturing has been conducted for several
decades with no
adverse impact to Texas water supplies or long-term impact
to surface property
the drilling practice has kept our kept our state
financially healthy funded our
universities and generated jobs for millions of Texas Tex
ans banning
hydraulic fracturing would condemn the property rights of
hundreds of Denton
mineral owners these property rights are often gained
through lifetimes of hard
work which should not be taken away by an effort spear
headed financially by
outside groups with the mission against the use of natural
gas and other
hydrocarbons condemnation of private mineral estate is not
the answer royalty
owners rely on their property interest to fund their retire
ments health cost
and children's education many are middle-class families who
rely on small
royalty checks to supplement their incomes Texas has led
the nation and the
world on energy issues largely because it recognizes
property rights of mineral
owners and provides equal constitutional protection to
those property rights a
ban on hydraulic fracturing will constitutionally condemn
those property
rights it should be noted also that our state's energy is a
major key to the
security and safety of the enjoy of rights we enjoy our
safety and security
that we enjoy today I urge you to consider these important
facts when
deciding the future the city of Denton and the great state
of Texas working
together we should be able to make a difference and we can
here in Texas thank
you thank you thank you all right our next speaker is
number 28
at ease Sally
good evening my name is Hatija Sally and I live at 300
Northridge Street in
Denton I'm very encouraged by the comments from at least
five of you this
evening and I'm hoping that there will be a good enough
resolution for everyone
involved however I have noticed that all the posturing pand
ering and pontificating
by politicians and industry members still lacks what I
consider to be very
important and that is the quality of life of our citizens
and the public
health and safety and what brings us to this day at this
moment are a series of
failures one is City Hall's failure to establish good
parameters for the
production of the gas industry to the failure of the
industry to follow its
own industry standards as well as local state and federal
regulations and third
the failure of local and state agencies regulatory agencies
to regulate so we
are here today because no one is doing their job so when
you go to thread that
needle would you please at least pick the thread for us it
's been since 2009 we
have been trying to get something done for citizens the
industry has had a
couple of centuries of dominance in the state I think it's
time that they gave
back something to the citizens and before I leave I would
also like to make
another comment I was responsible for collecting
approximately 10% of those
signatures for the petition and I don't remember anyone
being particularly crazy
liberal or anything it was an interesting cross-section of
people and
at the end of the day we're all concerned about what are we
leaving for
our children thank you for your time thank you thank you
our next speaker
will be number 29 Vicki Oppenheim good evening I'm Vicki
Oppenheim 600
Winfield Street here in Denton you will wonder how I have
come to this conclusion
tonight as you know I have been on a very long journey on
this issue in Denton I
was a member of the official Denton Gaswell Task Force and
I worked very
hard on this issue in creating trying to create an
ordinance to as somebody used
hold operators to a very high standard I proposed more than
60 percent of the
motions that were considered by the task force I even
looked to South Lake for
the gentleman who was from South Lake for some of their
ordinance provisions
and it was really I really encountered great opposition by
the industry and
others in proposing those ordinance provisions I fully
support this proposed
ban on fracking because of all this I thought I could make
a real difference
on the impacts on the citizens of Denton and after all that
work the ordinance
does not apply to a significant portion of the current or
future fracking wells
for the new ordinance to apply to any new drilling all fr
acking of wells would
have to be deemed as new not vested and that's already been
referred to here this
whole vesting issue but vesting is exactly where we are
unless this
interpretation changes or there's some state laws that
change for this reason I
see no other solution in Denton but to have a ban on future
fracking so you may
be surprised I'm at at this point but I see no other
solution from Denton even
with the some improvements to the ordinance and internal
city operations
with the gas well division to enforce this ordinance and I
think they would do
a very good job of doing so they're unable to do so because
again the wells
are vested and they're under old laws old regulations so
thus we have the
vintage situation what about and all those wells are being
reworked and being
fracked now will this ever change will there be any master
planning of wells to
reduce the impacts on surrounding properties many of these
wells go back
to the early 2000s and I have been in Denton since 1995 and
I was here during
the discovery of the Barnett shale and I saw the early
years when the city didn't
know how to deal with this issue and nobody knew what the
impacts were and I
observed all of this so I asked the people that are here
from the state what
is Denton supposed to do I have worked very hard so many
citizens in this room
Adam Brittle Adam Briggle Kathy McMullen many others and
here we are no
better off than before so I have a message for people
across this nation as
many of the gas companies have had that either the cities
need to create very
strong ordinances and enforcement procedures before
drilling or
permitting begins or you'll end up like Denton with a Dent
on Texas in the heart
of drilling where there's an ordinance that we can't use
thank you I thank you
we have a question Councilmember road Vicki I want to thank
you like I thank
some others for your service I know you were on the
official task force you sat
up here kind of tried it at the early stage of this
ordinance and so thanks
for your service on that and your help in educating the
citizens and thanks for
all you do for Denton you're a big head of the community
market and responsible
for a lot of that the better block that we just had you
were a big part of that
so it's not like you're a one-hit wonder when it comes to
the fracking issue here
you do a lot for this city so thank you for that a question
and again I'm just
trying to get folks up here and out there to understand
this theme as well
when you were on this task force and you were sitting up
here proposing those 60
percent of the ideas during that period were any of your
proposals to do an all
out ban of fracking no so I think that's interesting so you
thought at that time
that there was a way to be reasonable yes get tougher
regulations but going
through the process you realize this just ain't gonna
happen here in Denton
that's correct I I tried everything I did research I
researched other ordinances
and other cities I to have also contacted state officials I
think I did
everything possible for a citizen of Denton to do and being
on the gas well
task force we met weekly we discussed all different topics
we debated them and
in the end we still have vintage and that is why I have now
evolved in my
viewpoint that we need a ban I mean now there's some
miraculous change in Texas
law or something that it's gonna change that I don't see I
don't see what else
we can do about all these vested wells that are coming our
way I just I just
want to reiterate this because I think it's important to
know because a lot of
these flyers I'm getting in my home in the newspaper I
almost want to make the
case that everyone who's forwarded this petition had some a
priori disposition
toward banning in the first place it seems like everyone
was trying to kind
of work towards a reasonable solution and so thanks for
your testimony thank
you thank you next speaker will be number 30 mark is it
mechanic mechanic okay thank you my name is Mark Michelle
aka I live at 600
I missed that one altogether I apologize for that
and I'm for the band against fracking as well I'm already
making a side note
everybody knows what this is it's a cell phone I heard
earlier on that we've been
doing fracking and drilling since 18 something it's over
over 100 years I'm
sorry and and I'm and I wonder why why do we why do I have
this cell phone that
I can talk to people all over the world I can watch videos
on I can check apps
like I can do all these kinds of things it's because we we
wanted to do this we
put money and we put our energy into doing this why are we
still drilling
fracking and mining it's because the industry doesn't want
to change it's not
because we can't that money went into something else we
would and could be
doing that today now that's kind of a side note I normally
don't get up here
and and make speeches it's not who I am and it's not what I
do I'm a counselor
and so I thought if I'm gonna get up here and talk what am
I gonna talk
about I feel passionate passionately about the issue but I
'm just one voice
so what I feel like I do for my clients is I help them heal
I help them accept
themselves and I help them love themselves so I guess my
message is
really quite simple and that is about love if we do things
from a place of
love how would we treat ourselves how would we treat others
and how would we
treat the world differently it's that simple and so I'm
just gonna ask you I
know you have a tough decision to make but if you look in
your hearts come from
a place of love what's what's the right decision for
yourselves or your
families the city of Denton my message all right thank you
thank you thank you
Betty farmer number 31
thank you I am Betty farmer I live at 9475 Hilltop Road Ar
gyle Texas and I
realize that's out of the city of Denton but we're in your
ETJ I'm opposed to the
citywide ban on hydraulic fracking I'm not going to speak
to statistics I just
appreciate the opportunity to share with you my experience
of having been a
associated with gas drilling and fracking for over nine
years we own
property outside the city of Denton we have on our property
four wells that we
own one that I allowed the neighbors to use our surface
because they couldn't
get into their property I think the main issues are health
and our water
health wise with five wells on the property all in close
proximity to our
home my family have experienced no negative effects from
the drilling nor
the fracturing of the wells we have a good relationship
with the neighbors we
have a 600 home subdivision to our east we have about 20 to
30 houses in a
subdivision to our west thus far and we have a relationship
particularly with
those people to our west we've had no comments no
complaints no questions and
believe me their children are allowed to roam our property
we have that kind of
relationship I would have known it if there had been any
health issues that
they felt was related to the well that sits within 200 feet
of that subdivision
so far as I know every acre of land within our area is
involved in one well
or another creating many wells in our immediate area that
have been fractured
the water we have three water wells on our property that
are used continuously
two of them are used continuously the deepest well which I
'm told would be the
one more likely to show negative effects is a tested well
with no negativity so
far as the gas wells are fractured so with no negativity so
far as the gas
wells are fracturing is concerned it has some salt content
but that has nothing
to do with fracturing they went too deep I've been told for
years that our water
supply comes from an aquifer that comes to our area from
the northwest the main
Barnett shell barn the main Barnett shell field lays to the
west and in the
northwest of our property and our wells our water wells in
2013 I was told by an
expert at your Civic Center that our supply water came from
the north there
are many wells that have been drilled in the last nine
years to the north of our
water wells we've seen none of the flaming water nor any of
the effects of
which we read on here I'm sorry can I make one more
statement sure do you as
council members know how long this fracking process takes
do you know that doesn't bother you would you I'm not so
sure we can respond
to that but why don't you share with us in your opinion how
long well what I'm
hearing tonight is regarding the fracturing process as
though it's an
unlimited time factor they move equipment in for probably a
week they
bring all of these these big pieces of equipment that they
have to have for all
for a longer period of time the fracturing itself on on
most of the
whales that are on our property were fractured within one
day one of them
took more than one day because it was fractured in stages
and there were some
complication they shut down overnight and then started back
up the next morning
they start early early in the morning and they go until
they have fractured
that well it is not a long process all right the spewing
that took place the
water that goes into the ground is regulated as you were
told by the
railroad person the water that was spewing out was
regulated water thank you
thank you thank you next speaker number 32 Linda Cole any
council and mayor watts my name is Linda Cole my address is
six three seven six
Jim Crystal Road Denton 76 207 I'm one of the two percent
ers I've been a dent
night since 1969 so I've been around a little while please
note that I have an
opposition to the ordinance to ban fracking in the city
limits I also speak
for my mother-in-law and father-in-law who live at 1004
Marsh Branch Road
Denton 76 207 a few concerns I have with the ban one of
them is what will the
ordinance say to prospective businesses considering Denton
as their home
location it says that even if you've gotten the required
permits and followed
the guidelines we can change our minds and we no longer
will be able to conduct
your business or you will know be a not be able to conduct
your business and be
profitable we can choose to move in around your business we
can build homes
around your business and then get laws passed to shut you
down if these
ordinances should pass the legal battles that will cause
the citizens of Denton
of which I am one of them will be a great deal both
financially and by
bringing in future development and what that could cause
future development or
the lack of this ban I feel like is too much of a broad
stroke of the pen the
city limits contain much more than planned neighborhoods
there are large
areas of open underdeveloped acreage and industrial sites
that will be affected
by the van although the wells in those areas have no impact
on homes schools or
neighborhoods it does not take into account the diverse
areas of property
that lie within the city limits there are a large number of
wells west of 35
on land owned by generations of families who do not who do
own minerals and that
are still living there many of these families are elderly
and supplement
their income from royalties from these wells the council's
ruling in 2013
should be sufficient enough to protect planned
neighborhoods while leaving
undeveloped tracks in the industrial areas available for
gas well development
when we found out that they were going to frack all the
wells around our
property property excuse me we were concerned about all the
negative things
that we had heard on the news we wanted to set a baseline
test on our water well
which is about 500 feet from a current gas well before the
process began we did
so and then we retested our well two years after the fr
acking process the
first fracking process and there was no change in our water
we currently have
ten horizontal wells within a mile of our own well and our
home and there has
no been no change in the test results of our water well
maybe the council could
force operators to perform frequent checks of water
supplies around their
operations and possibly report those to the citizens of
Denton thank you thank
you just want to make a note that as we're moving down
people who have
numbers up through 59 if they're not present here in the
chambers if they
could make their way to the chamber next numbers 33 mr.
Bill Stevens good
evening mr. mayor and members of the council my name is
Bill Stevens I'm from
Austin Texas 823 Congress Avenue suite 1010 I am a oil and
gas lobbyist I guess
would be the term you'd you would use I'm a government
affairs consultant and
also work on with the Texas desalination Association work
on some education
projects etc etc in my business in Austin but I've been
involved in the
only gas industry in the 1980s and participated in drilling
of 250 wells or
so and have been involved in representing the industry
through the
Texas Alliance and other of energy producers and other
trade organizations
for 15 years it was early last decade and I'm sorry I can't
not remember the
year that we began negotiating and I was a part of a group
and I think you were
on the council mr. Engelbrecht in 2002 okay well this was
early on mr. no not
either all right and I I apologize but at any rate we began
negotiating both in
with and this was industry and I was one of six right on an
ad hoc committee
from industry to come back in and talk to the city of Dent
on and talk to the
city of Fort Worth and we think we successfully negotiated
from a
culmination of negotiation we we did end up with with ordin
ances in both of those
cities in this city in particular this was I thought this
was a hard
negotiation and I know you have gone through and changed on
several
occasions have changed your your ordinance and that is it
should be and
so but a ban on hydraulic fracturing is a ban on drilling I
'm not we don't need
to go back in and recount what I think former Supreme Court
justice Phillips
said but in Tana Mount in this in this area in this day and
age and what we're
doing is a ban on drilling and that's not a good solution
and it's you know
it's certainly not a good solution for the I don't believe
for the city for the
schools for your university and I don't believe for the
general citizenry it's
a has a narrow objective of shutting things down it's
focused with the
results and I think the results are benefiting a few and
not all of us but
and it carries broad implications as you've heard otherwise
I was asked to
come here tonight by the leadership of the Texas Alliance
of Energy Producers
I no longer work for them but I am a consultant for them
and I was asked to
come tonight and ask to volunteer volunteer our
organization and to ask
you to work this work towards some other solutions I was
part of the deal and we
did it and I can't remember the night I want to say 2002 in
this very room and I
hate to use her I don't know the lady Vicki who just spoke
I understand her
frustration but we've got to come back and try again it is
not a solution to
ban hydraulic fracturing that is not a good solution but
there are solutions
out there and people in the industry will work with you I
've not been back
here working on it in the last ten years that's not been my
job but I've been
asked to come back here now we would be happy to do that I
think there are
others in this room that you've heard from this evening
including two elected
officials from from Austin we do have a couple of questions
okay and that's fine
councilmember Gregory thank you mayor no back in I believe
it was 2002 I was not
on council then but you look familiar well I had that kind
of face back back
then the setback that was set from protected uses was about
500 feet 2010
we moved that setback to a thousand feet 2013 we went to
1200 feet I think I heard
mr. Faulkner from the energy company and starts with the
bee rightling yeah that
they've done a couple of ads in our local newspaper this
this past couple
of weeks I think I heard him say something that that they
could get at
pools two miles away from the drilling site so I guess a
question I have for
you is how far back a setback would be a reasonable setback
maybe not two miles
but out but from what I'm gathering from from what the
current technology is
1200 foot setback is probably mild given what the
technology would allow you to
do what kind of setbacks well let me let me you came to
work with us no and I
and I and I know where we were you know 12 years ago and
negotiating at 500 feet
right and in and in Fort Worth we were at 600 feet a
thousand feet 1200 feet and
varying in varying situations and it made a difference on
whether you were
urban suburban rural and whether there's a school hospital
residents and and and
on those setbacks and so it's not it's not one thing but
yes we the horizontal
drilling today you drill the vertical hole here and you can
and you can then
horizontally go and I don't know that we're going to go two
miles but
certainly you can actually you can you can go 10,000 feet
out in that in that
zone and so yes you can be further away but you also have
to have access to the
surface the surface location and and by that access that's
legal access as well
well the reason I ask is because a lot of the the as you've
heard from
testimony tonight what's going on here tonight has an awful
lot to do with with
some some players in the industry insisting that that they
can drill 200
feet from people's homes because they're vested and if the
technology allows them
to be further away to drill that could that could ease the
burden on the
neighborhoods ease the burden on a lot of the property
owners and still allow
the mineral owners to receive their their the value from
their property yes
sir I think so I think in the abstract you are exactly
right but that's in the
abstract and in and in the ownership of the surface and the
and where that
location would be the additional cost let's go down the
list of objections I
might throw out if I were the operator you were asking to
move well we could we
could take that list of objections and lay them up next to
the list of
objections from the neighbors that's right are experiencing
some other kind
and and and I want to have this conversation we want to
have this
conversation and see if we can't get back to where we were
where I thought we
left off ten years and again you know ten or twelve years
ago there were very
few wells even being drilled in Denton County it was coming
from wise over here
they certainly weren't inside the city limits like they are
when we fashioned
the one in Fort Worth there had not been one well that was
spudded in in the city
limits of Fort Worth when we finalized that agreement so I
felt good that we
got something done and the lady again spoke to it that you
know you need to
get it done up front and I thought we had in some cases but
let it let us move
forward with that and if we can thank you Councilmember
road
thank you mayor I appreciate you speak in terms of
solutions because it means
you recognize that there's problems and for for the last
three years that I've
sat here on council we've been dealing with those problems
through ordinances
through legal routes through lobbying the legislature I
even sat for six months
across the table from one of our industries here in town
and I haven't
found the magic solution and you're one of a long list of
folks that are
suggesting that there's some solution that we haven't come
across yet that if
only we sit down and to be frank you you haven't come to us
prior to this point
I know no one really has so can you just give us a glimpse
because I think that's
gonna be a common theme coming from the industry tonight
that there's some
solution if we just sit down you want to come and help us
we'll sit at the table
give me a glimpse of what that solution might be to give me
some hope that
there's some meaning in that well one thing I would like to
say and before I
answer that question is that and mayor you've alluded to it
and now you are
again this is a much harder position than we were in in
2002 and that you
were in in 2002 as a city when you were considering an
ordinance although you
had some things on the book you had basically a blank slate
and anything we
did was going to be an improvement anything that the
council did was going
to be an improvement and it was going to be forward-looking
and it was and now you
now we have run kind of head-on into ourselves and I think
that's both as a
council and as an industry we're doing that we can get this
done but a ban of
the solution of banning hydraulic fracturing is not is not
a solution can
can we come together and negotiate it I don't I don't know
what that looks like I
was worried when we were negotiating with with your council
about having the
planning and zoning committee Commission being being
charged and then your permit
coming from the fire from the fire department or from the
fire marshal that
was a structure I know but that was a structure and I don't
know where we go
but that is evidently worked somewhat but it's gotten us
here well I believe
councilman road and asked a question and I'm not sure I'm
not sure that yes so
there are no solutions that you're offering at this point
or even alluding
to is that fair no I'm not I wouldn't I wouldn't be so I
wouldn't be so bold
thank you all right councilmember Engelbrecht thank you
mayor I want to
thank you for your offer I know that you were here in 2002
I was in a break
between the Planning Commission and the City Council but I
was it was thank you
I yes that's where you had seen me earlier I think I was
following that
issue and frankly for those of you in this room we don't
know we were one of
the first cities in Texas to look at regulation and and
actually were
considered a leader and had this great ordinance little did
we know because we
didn't know that much about the industry really what what
shortcomings we had in
that ordinance and I want to point out to you I have to say
this now you know
the other thing we didn't know was that we're at the edge
of the Barnett Shale
we're not in the sweet spot and we have at best second tier
operators and we're
going to have I believe third tier and fourth tier
operators before this is all
done and that creates to me real problems for us writing
regulations and
for us enforcing those regulations as well as the whole
issue of vested
rights of older wells I hope you're and you may not be I'd
hope you would stay
around I would like to talk to you after
yes sir thank you I appreciate it Councilmember Hawkins
thank you I think
Jim meets we're all gonna meet for breakfast here but do
you know cost-wise
when you go horizontal you said you can go up to 10,000
feet now and is that a
very expensive thing to do for an operator yeah I mean I
want to know well
I don't know of course you know we in the industry we've
gone from drilling
you know an 8,000 foot vertical well you know for 750 a
million dollars you know
to drilling the 8,000 foot vertical and and you know eight
to ten thousand feet
horizontal up to eight to ten million dollars and yes you
have you have it but
it's all based on rate of return and how quickly it comes
back and the amount of
pay that you've cut etc etc that makes that worthwhile but
it is tremendously
expensive upfront to do so okay thank you thank you I guess
the only comment I
would have mr. Stevens is first of all thank you for coming
but I think you can
hear the frustration from from the from the community from
the members on
council here who've been working on this this issue for a
couple years that it
has to come to this point where we've got over 500 people
sitting in different
various locations within this municipal complex to advocate
for their interests
but but I certainly hope that with all the industry
representatives that have
come before us and will probably come before us in the
future here with these
next gosh 70 or so speakers that we can really figure out a
solution because I
think as councilmember Rodin pointed out it's it's real
easy to say that but then
when when it really gets down to the rubber meat in the
road we've got to
make sure that we find that solution that the threading of
the needle that
will help us to be able to provide for the health and
safety and welfare of our
citizens with responsible drilling practices so I
appreciate you coming and
speaking with us but I hope that the industry is hearing
the real true
problem that we face here I mean we've never gotten this
much attention on this
issue until it came to this point and in some ways that's a
little frustrating
but if that's what it takes to really try to find a
comprehensive solution
then then then that's what it takes so thank you I think
you're on the road
thank you thank you all right the next speaker is number 34
Richard Knight gentleman ma'am a date of May the 25th 1971
I left Vietnam to come
to Denton Texas to start school on the first week in June
graduated in 75 with
the work of the oil business I've spent almost 40 years
drilling wells all over
the world and became very angry in this past few months
when I found out that
there was this big anti fracking band and it was very upset
it was unsettling
to me because it's safe and I do challenge all of the anti
energy
activists with their accusations about fracking it does not
happen that way
and the funny thing about it all is is it's up to y'all all
of you folks in the
council to allow this country and this county to become
energy independent no
more oil from overseas are you familiar aware that 300 3
million barrels a day
is what they're having to use from imports at $100 a day a
barrel per wet
purple deal is 300 million dollars a day our country spends
to these people in
the Middle East you know would it be nice to be five years
and produce all of
our oil all 18 bear 18 million barrels we need done here so
we can then turn
around and take 300 million dollars baby off of the debt
every day and that can
bring our country back to where it should be because fr
acking is the only
way it could be done they want to be poor broke down torn
up country then you
ban it I know you won't ban it because that's not the right
thing to do the
right thing to do is allow the people to do under
regulations to drill the wells
frack them and they will be safe as far as you were
concerned the 1200 foot do
that plenty of room 1200 foot is a quarter of a mile and
they're drilling
down and they make that turn well you don't hear that and
you don't get all
these problems from the fracking because it's done 10,000
feet or so down in the
ground all of it goes down through steel to these
formations fracture it and
produces out it allows the city county state and the
federal government to make
revenue to get this country where it needs to be thank you
ladies and gentlemen
for your time thank you the next speaker is number 35 Jack
Follett Follett please sorry apologize city mayor council
thank you for let me
come here speak my name is Jack fleet I live at 139 11 Lake
Michigan Avenue
Houston Texas and I'm the president of Nero Texas a chapter
of the National
Association of royalty owners we represent the interest of
mineral owners
and royalty owners across the nation I am a fourth
generation mineral owner my
family has minerals all over the state of Texas you might
wonder who exactly
are mineral owners who are royalty owners we are farmers or
ranchers or
janitors for school teachers we come from all walks of life
we're grandchildren
and grandparents we have no particular political or
religious affiliation we do
care about our environment we care about safe drilling we
care about our land and
we care about our mineral estate one of the most unique
things about our country
besides being able to come here and speak to our council to
you about what
we what we would like to see happen is that mineral rights
here in the United
States can be owned by individuals no other country in the
world allows people
to own mineral rights what we'd like to see happen is our
right to continue
develop our minerals and we'd like to see this ban on fr
acking not get even
voted on just to be said no to mineral owners look forward
to developing their
properties to their states becoming royalty owners
receiving that income our
members at Nero receive less than about five hundred
dollars a month in royalty
income we're not receiving a lot of money this is helping
people pay you know
supplement their pension plans or Social Security checks
this is going towards
helping children go through school and getting donated
charities developing
mineral states is hard for most mineral owners to do on
their own we have to
rely on industry to to do this because you just heard the
cost these wells can
range from three to twelve million dollars to drill a
horizontal well that's
very expensive being a fourth-generation mineral owner our
family has witnessed
firsthand the changes in technology over the last century
back in the day when
welter first drilled open hole we're not talking about
protection of anything
they're just holes in the ground no casing no cementing and
fracturing was
done with nitroglycerin to stimulate those hydrocarbons we
've all seen that
picture where there's a Derek well what oil shooting up out
of the ground
everybody's getting coated in oil we've come a long way
since then with high
with horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing we can do
this with fewer pad
sites we can do this with much more down hole protection
and a much more
contained area and practically it's the the only way to
really develop within a
city doing horizontal drilling you heard we can drill up to
two miles they're
doing that today in Oklahoma with sectional drillings that
go out to ten
thousand feet I would like to ask the City Council to keep
in mind a couple
questions and that would be one if somebody were to buy
surface in the
city of Denton and an ordinance was passed to ban access to
that surface
property they couldn't build a home there they couldn't
build a house there
they couldn't build a business there what would be the
value that property
that point in time so please consider that thank you very
much thank you
councilman ringer break you got a question thank you mayor
you alluded to
the fact that the surface owner if we didn't allow them to
use their property
it wouldn't be worth anything the problem we have it's not
that it's that
there's a mineral owner and then there's a property owner
who's developed
something on top of that and we have operators who want to
place a well right
next to that developed home do you all as mineral owners
offer any sort of
solution to that to that problem so that we don't have an
industrial use in the
neighborhoods and some other way to accommodate those
mineral owners and at
the same time protect those homeowners and I'm not talking
about I'm talking
about the nuisance elements that involved and some of those
go on long
after that 30 days of 30 to 40 days of well development or
over noise from
compressors and there's constant trucks coming and going
sometimes daily
sometimes more than once a day sometimes less to pick up
the condensate how do we
balance the rights of those mineral owners against the
rights of those
surface owners well that's a very good question and you
know I just like you
talked about the compressor the generator going off all I
would not want
that 200 feet from my home a surface owner or as a mineral
owner but the
mineral state does take dominance over the surface to state
and that's where
this issue begins to to rub especially when there's no
longer fee simple areas
be simple meaning that one person owns the surface and owns
the mineral state
below that where the mineral owner wants to have their
minerals developed you
know with these lateral legs being able to be developed up
to two miles having
an offset of a thousand feet is not necessarily out of the
question
certainly I think geology is speaking to some of that and
being able to stay in
the pay zone on that horrors on the leg longer makes it
more profitable for an
operator to to drill in to see the return on their
investment in these these
very expensive wells I don't have a specific answer for you
on how to settle
between service and mineral ownership but I'm certainly
sure that there's been a
lot of case study done on that well that's the conundrum we
face yes thank
you thank you thank you the next speakers number 36 Jack
Black
I'm Jack Black if you look for me in the telephone
directory to be Sloan J. Black
2505 Kareemah Avenue Lane in Texas 7620
thank you mayor thank you council for listening to me and
having this time for
people to discuss the subject and thanks for everybody else
who came here to
listen to one another and surely we can have some solution
some way
I have been on a fracturing job in 1947 in the Walters oil
field in Cotton County
Oklahoma my dad got me out of school one morning out of bed
one morning when
school was out and said you're going to the least with me
today because they're
going to do something out there I want you to see and they
fract three wells
that's pristine country then and it's pristine country
today this argument
about how old fracking is well in two years I can tell you
that it'll be the
seventh decade since it was practiced as a routine thing in
the oil field it's
not something new as I've seen between the end of World War
one and 1960 was
about 15 years and during that time we thought that we had
pretty much
perfected fracture treatment in the in in the time sense
has been all kinds of
in intervention it are they think of word right now but all
kinds of
improvements as a result of research practice and
experience and the wells
you have in the shales not only require a fracture
treatment to be a well but
they require a fracture treatment to be stimulated for
anything other than
initial rate and the initial natural reserve so fracture
treating is
accomplished to have a differential increased rate and a
differential
increased recovery of reserve and in the shales you can't
have either without
fracture treatment mr. black are you about about ready to
wrap it up that was
the bell for your time oh was it really well you've had the
OSHA EPA Texas
Railroad Commission in 1974 the federal government through
the in underground
injection legislation in Congress took primacy of anything
that was injected
in the ground and well the states could get it back if they
met if they would
provide greater regulation than was required by the feds so
Texas has its
primacy back but believe me the underground injection
people in in EPA
are the ones who supervise Texas Railroad Commission now
yeah mr. black
your time's up do you could you wrap it up please thank you
I would suggest that
you dance with the girls that brung you there you go all
right that's good that
was worth it that's right that's right thank you very much
thank you very much
mr. black need a little levity at 10 o 5 in the evening we
'll go on to speaker
number 37 Stephen Stephen Shannon and we'll we'll go
through another couple
speakers and then we'll take another quick break here in a
few moments my
name is Stephen Shannon I live at 1901 work Crescent Court
here in Denton and
much like you gentlemen and the folks that have gone before
me and assume a
few more behind me I took my kids in bed and understood
there was a party going
on tonight I wanted to show up here as a citizen I voted
for you guys
and I and I entrusted you with my vote on this issue it
means a lot to me the
work that you guys have put in the time you put in I
understand there's
tremendous amount of frustration I might need a piece of
chocolate but I'm here
against the band one of the things that I've seen is there
's two property owners
here and there are very few mineral owners I'm not one of
them but there's
very few of them and they and most of the people who are in
for the band are
not mineral owners but there are many of us who are
homeowners and we are property
owners and when you jeopardize one property owners rights
you jeopardize
all of them if you take away the rights of the mineral
owner by saying they
cannot drill what does it say that you can not take away my
rights as a
property owner I want you guys to work hard to work through
the frustration and
to continue to keep at it we have hundreds of years of case
law revolving
around the mineral estate and the surface state I'm not
here to get into
it there's people way smarter than me they've talked to you
about it y'all
know the facts and the figures but if it took a hundred
years to put all that law
in effect I think we can put our heads down for a few more
years and find a
really good solution I don't see a solution that's been
presented tonight
but I believe in each one of you I believe in you because I
gave you my
vote I believe that I can work through frustrating times
and I believe that
there's a better way forward and I want you guys to
continue to fight for that I
don't like broccoli I don't like working out but just
because I like him doesn't
mean I can't do something about it I understand we don't
like what's
happening I understand the lady that got up and spoke about
the wells by our
neighborhood I live by it too I'm a citizen here and it
would frustrate me
and it does frustrate me but that is not the solution by
taking away one man's
property rights for the benefit of another you wouldn't
like it if I took
away your house and and we need to fight through this and
find a better solution
forward I'm trusting with my vote I have already done that
and I'd ask that you
would use temperance and perseverance to find a better way
forward thank you
councilmember Eaglebrick I believe has a question just a
statement I believe the
the chocolate bowl is over on that end wonderful thank you
good any other
questions councilmember Hawkins there is going to be a
scarcity of broccoli so
you're fine that is a good thing yeah my mom will not like
that all right thank
you
the next speaker is number 38 John Rawlinson
good evening mr. mayor and council members my name is John
Rawlinson I'm
Green Beret ambassador and I'm currently on assignment here
in your area I'm at
1501 South Loop 288 Denton since I'm in this area working
with veterans I've
been asked to write read a letter from one of our high
rated commanders in
regards to what's going on here in Denton and I'd like to
proceed with that
sure and he basically was ill and couldn't get here or he
would have been
here himself like say I'm a 30-year veteran and the
gentleman I'm going to
read about is also a 30-year combat Green Beret and he says
good evening mr.
mayor and members of the Denton County City Council I
appreciate the opportunity
to address the council tonight what I consider to be an
important manner of
energy and national security my name is Colonel Jack Tobin
and I am a 30-year
veteran of the United States Special Forces while I serve
as the president of
the United States Special Forces Association I speak
tonight in my
individual capacity and not in behalf of the Green Beret
Association or any
government agency no one has paid me to speak to you and I
am here tonight
solely as an American veteran concerned about my country's
future like many
Americans I have been fascinated by the way that
innovations in shale energy
production has upended the conventional wisdom about
foreign policies and
international relations also I have followed the way that
foreign
governments attempted to undermine our opportunities to
gain energy security
have used various groups in this country to spread this
message let me assure you
that this issue before you tonight is bigger than Denton
and even the state of
Texas the debate over our energy future has profound
geopolitical implications
and I appreciate the city of Denton has attempted to
address these important
issues in the past as a longtime member of the special
operations community I
can tell you that American sends men and women of our armed
forces to some
distant and dangerous place to protect our national
interests this is uniquely
true for the special forces many of these places you know
about and many
more you do not American moms and dads will only give up
their sons and
daughters to serve in armed forces in order to secure our
national interests
abroad the most significant national interest that we have
protecting abroad
for the last hundred years has been the steady and reliable
supply of oil why is
important to the citizens of Denton when we stop drilling
here it forces us to
drill over there when we drill over there we must defend
our national
interests I would bet each of you know someone who has
served in the recent
wars in the Persian Gulf desert storms Iraqi freedom and
other operations which
names you do not know perhaps you know someone in Denton
who has has a son or
daughter serving in uniform we asked this nation moms and
dads to give up
their sons and daughters to serve our great nation and
protect our strategic
interests in far-flung and very dangerous areas because
just about okay
and I'll just go move down to the bottom one more thing
there is a very powerful
entities and political forces that want to use and keep
buying oil from their
countries I am not talking about anyone in this room I'm
talking about foreign
interests that have built empires of wealth by selling us
oil for decades
they do not like the ideal American energy and independence
they will do
whatever it takes they will say whatever they need to say
to keep America in a
state of dependency they want our money but more than that
they want to leverage
so as you move forward with this decision realize that your
action may
consequences that go way beyond the inconvenience or even
the hazards of
drilling rigs operating in your community remember if we do
not drill
here we must drill over there thank you for your time and
we have a question
we have a question councilmember councilmember Johnson
thank you mayor so
the way this works up here is you hit the screen and then
you get to talk in
order and the reason I hit the screen is I haven't said
anything tonight and I
wanted to say I didn't know that before councilmember Engel
brecht got to ask you
about the generator 200 feet behind your house I wanted to
tell you that he could
kill you ten different ways so it was a preemptive strike
on my part sir and I
like you'd have some chocolate well we're here to defend
you for whatever
you decide to do thank you thank you thank you very much
let's see we've got
we'll do one more speak and then we'll take a quick break
number 40 but
botania Russell Oh 39 I'm sorry yes I did John Russell I'm
sorry
all right it's John Russell 2302 Jacqueline Drive here in
Denton I'd like
to speak to the council about this potential fracking ban
from the
perspective of someone whose father has serviced Wall
Street investment banking
community his entire working life investment banking
executives were
welcome family friends at my house and investing was what
we talked about from
when I was in elementary school to well to now so I'm not
gonna sound like I'm
on the right or the left and I'm not gonna make any
environmentalist or
health arguments because others here are already doing that
I'm gonna use my
experience to clear up some confusion that mineral rights
ownership is not as
sacred and is worthy of special protections from changes of
law as the
property rights of homesteaders you would normally
associate with surface
owners these two different kinds of property rights are not
interchangeable
and should not be confused or weighed evenly if I buy a
stock a bond security
commodity or future it becomes my property mineral rights
has more in
common with this kind of property than it does with the
property you would
associate with homesteaders who have to live in it I make
this distinction
because it is worthy of your consideration that when a
person buys
mineral rights even from a different generation they are a
speculator they
assume the risks that the value of what they are buying and
whether or not is
going to be worth getting out of the ground or outweighed
by the potential
for gain for having invested in them this is fair this is
what justifies
people getting rich from investing no matter what they are
investing in that
they have the guts to take on the risk and the possibility
that they could
lose well through investing is not for the faint of heart
the risks of
investing are almost too many to be counted investors in
just about any
sector of our economy except that economic conditions can
and do change
and they accept the fact that laws are changing constantly
at all levels of
government changes in law represent opportunity for some
and loss for
others that's reality if the ban on fracking indent is
passed tonight or
passes by ballot referendum it will impact the value of the
mineral rights
of some people if extraction is limited to conventional
means wow this is going
fast
can I take your time if she's willing to give it up okay
now yeah if you could
just maybe wrap up the last couple to wrap up the point
basically to wrap up
the point is wow that threw me off boy that time goes by
the people who have
the mineral rights could lose if the law passes but we've
all lost in investments
at one time or another we've all had something a 401k a
retirement fund
something where some law somewhere changed or some
condition changed and we
lost how many people in this room have lost on an
investment we have a we have
a question from councilmember Hawkins it's not really a
question but if that
counselor mark is still in the room we need you thank you
thank you yeah thank
you thank you we're gonna go ahead and take the one more
speaker because they
seem to be together or at least yeah but T.V. or Russell
yeah if you could just take your name and address and then
your time will
start thank you can I play the YouTube video without the
sound because I know
that you don't have audio on the screens is that right I
don't believe we do okay
I'm only doing this so that I'm not accused of misleading
you it's your
three minutes yes ma'am my name is Batavia Russell I live
at 2302
Jacqueline Drive and my lovely assistant and I are going to
do a dramatization of
what you are seeing here I would first you might put it
closer to the back are
you trying it for us to hear the audio no just to watch
this we're gonna give
you the audio I just don't put it on the if you put it on
the stand there it
might that where you would put a document normally just lay
it flat and
it and it should come up on the screen oh cool okay thank
you um aren't y'all
the alcohol petition no we're the fracking petition fr
acking that's not
safe no it's not safe they've been doing it without
regulations on it we're
trying to get them to at least regulate it and put some
kind of bands on it
who's been doing it without regulations oh a bunch of
corporations that do the
fracking basically doing it without authorizations so what
is it you're
trying to do we're trying to get signatures I'll let you
read it here if
you like so you're getting signatures to ban it no
signatures they'll put some
regulations on it we're not totally against it but we want
it you know
they're not going to stop our position is let's get some
regulations on it and
let's what kind of regulations so they would have to be in
certain areas
outside the city limits so where does it say that on here
you can read all that
right there we're opposed to exposing the city well it
seems like you're
trying to do it to oppose the ban that the other people I
don't see anything
here about regulating it where does it say that if you keep
reading it to
protect property that's you know regulations okay but what
regulations the
city has regulations and they're not good enough right that
's why they're
that's that that's and regulations and tax them and
exposing the city nothing
on regulations and that's why they're that's that's what is
this
unconstitutional taking what is that that's like when you
have some property
and they want to dig where your property's at and they have
that what's
it called the eminent domain yeah where they can come into
some areas of the
city and say hey here's some money and make you move and
take your property so
if I want to drill a well the city goes in and says they
can either move or what
it's like bullying people out of their property the city
but the city doesn't
do that yes they do that's why they're out here that hasn't
happened in Denton
are you a resident here and do you live here no we're just
working here they're
paying you to help but you're misrepresenting the petition
okay well if
that's the opinion then it's not a problem you don't have
to sign it well
I'm not going to sign it the city's not going in and paying
I mean I wish they
would pay someone for what they're doing it's something I
can't remember what
they call it the word are you talking about eminent domain
yes yes that's it
the city has not done that ever in regards to oh I didn't
know that I didn't
know that and not in regards to fracking have a nice day
yeah you too
that's an example of the 8,000 signatures you got from the
very first
gentleman who came up here this evening we personally know
of five people that
live very close to us that signed that petition thinking
that it was to ban
fracking in the city of Denton not to support the industry
or regulations and
we are encouraging people to write to all of you email all
of you and request
that their names be removed from the bogus petition thank
you all right thank
you thank you all right we're gonna take a short break it's
about 1023 we're
gonna come back at 10 about 1030 all right we're gonna
reconvene the public
hearing for agenda item 4d I believe we've got number 41
which is Walter and
Rebecca Lindrose Walter and Rebecca Lindrose number 41 we
will give just a
moment for the Lin roses to get in if they're still here
number 41 Walter and
Rebecca Lin rose going once twice and we will just put a a
sterisk by them in case
they come in later then we'll go to number 42 Philip sweet
thank you mayor
members of the council you can move that mic up pardon the
sweet the address is
9713 Grandview Drive and that's in Denton branch and we
moved here in 2002 I
think we were in the 60s they're now up to 2,700 people
there in 1600 homes
the last time I said that this meeting to discuss this I
remember councilman
sitting over here that compromised on the setback to 1200
feet now he's shifted
over here you were the one that did the compromise which I
thought was very good
I just like to give some experience living at Robeson Ranch
with the
fracking that's a totally different perspective of some of
the problems the
other people have had first after the first 50 people
everyone signed the
paper that there would be the possibility of fracking at
the site and
on all the maps they showed where the gas parks would be
and since then people
have bought houses if you can look on the maps Google
gallery street you can
see all the new homes that are right across from a gas park
that's less than
250 feet from that so you have people that will buy a house
understanding that
this that there is going to be fracking and that there will
be refragging and
from what I understand I attended most of the task force
meetings of the last
several years and some of the experts over here will
probably tell you that
the refragging process I understand is what every two years
so to say that this
band would would not affect existing wells means that
rather than shutting
off the switch now they'd all be shut off within a couple
years because it all
fade out and they would need to be refract so I think it's
disingenuous to
say that it doesn't affect existing wells now you may ask
well why does it
work at ropes and ranch and it doesn't work here now if I
if I'm asked the
question you know what I put up with a diesel engine 7 by
24 I would reframe
the question and say how about if it was just during the
day 12 hours a day and
that's what happened at ropes and ropes and ranch they
changed it so it so was
became like 8 and 8 p.m. it was longer but you know that
was the the compromise
I don't see why we can't update the the plan so we do
something like that I
think that was a bigger big argument here I saw several
other things here that
he did whoops my time is up I don't have time to go into
everything but thank you
thank you very much thank you our next speaker will be
number 43 Jack Esperanza
good evening John Esparza it's 700 East 11th Street in
Austin Texas I'm the
president of the Texas Trucking Association appreciate the
opportunity
to be with you all here tonight I can't say and I think it
was said earlier
about how long the issue has gone on and the amount of
frustration that there is
the the concern from the trucking industry was certainly
any concern on or
any suggestion of the band and I will say after listening
all the testimony
tonight and I kind of scrapped some of things that I would
say and share from
the perspective of trucking is from us it is about those
jobs that are that are
right here in Denton in the surrounding areas within the
Barnett shell not not
just with companies here but those across the state that
are servicing the
industry and and the oil and gas industry old field haulers
happen to be
the largest segment of the trucking industry so anytime
there's any concerns
over what's happening locally and and all outright bands
that is something that
the trucking industry is certainly going to be concerned
about but what I'm here
tonight too is all is to is is to be a part of the process
you probably haven't
heard a lot from trucking here tonight if I don't think
that I have perhaps
there's some more behind me I think Peter Bilt was
mentioned earlier it
touches a lot of jobs one out of every 16 and in the state
of Texas as a matter
of fact I can't be more specific to Denton in particular
but I do know and
I don't think I have to convince you all that there's a lot
of trucks here and
there's certainly a reason for that being a part of the
service industry that
we are we don't design we don't build we just move and we
do our best to move
that our job safely all loads whether it's water associated
or equipment or
whatever it happens to be the industry certainly has a
concern over that and
and wants to be a part as a stakeholder in the solutions
that you do derive from
the issues that you have here I would suggest it's not a
win on one side or a
loss on the other that it's clearly going to have to be a
compromise that
the regulatory aspect of what's occurring out here as has
got to be a
component of it or at least a piece of it and that's
something that trucking
recognizes so we wanted to offer as as a unified voice of
trucking our support
for thoughtful solutions we want to be a part of that and
we would certainly hope
that it would include not having a ban on it but something
that that would
appeal to what you've many of the constituents that you've
heard here
tonight so thanks for the opportunity to be here and I'm
certainly happy to
answer any questions that you all may have. Seeing no
questions thank you very much. Thank you.
Thank you for coming. We're going to go to number 44 John
Sigmond.
My name is John Sigmond and I live 1820 Stonegate Drive in
Denton. This is not
about me but I should mention that I am a retired petroleum
engineer worked for
Exxon for many years went into operations was involved in
fracking
operations didn't ever make me sick and eventually became
managing director of
oil company overseas had my own company here in the states
at one time had a
ranch that had gas wells on it so I do have some background
in this but like I
say it's not about me I am not concerned that the City
Council might agree to a
fracking ban because I believe the council members realize
that a ban on
fracking would not be in Denton's best interest. What I am
concerned about is
that an uninformed citizens in a public vote might pass the
ban before any
public vote the City Council and others should ensure the
citizens are fully
aware of the problems that a ban on fracking would cause to
Denton. Everyone
in Denton would like the cleanest air possible to breathe
and a minimum of
disruptive commercial noise. Basically Denton is an
environmental sensitive city
and that is good but a ban on fraction fracking is not the
answer. The gas
reserves and the barnet shale can only be recovered using
fracking. If you ban
fracking in effect you ban drilling because without fr
acking wells and the
low permeability barnet shale are not economically feasible
. Banning fraction
and drilling would lead to a host of serious problems to
name a few. One it is
unpatriotic to not contribute to the energy supplies needed
by Texas and the
USA to make our nation energy independent. Energy
independence not only
greatly improves our national security but also
substantially reduces our
national debt. Two loss of jobs, loss of purchases at local
businesses, significant
reduction of city income because of reduced tax income
related to gas
production, increase in citizen taxes to offset the city
income loss, reduction in
new businesses moving to Denton are just a few of the
problems. Problem number
three probably lawsuits would become a major problem and
Texas oil and gas
reserves underground and leases covering those assets are
owned by individuals
and companies. A fracking ban and resulting drilling stop
page would make
most of those assets valueless especially in a state like
Texas you
cannot take private property without adequate compensation.
The resulting
suits would be upheld by Texas courts. The cost of Denton
would likely be
hundreds of millions of dollars potentially enough to
bankrupt the city.
In closing I'll say the solution is not to solve problems
that only exist in a
few isolated cases if at all. The Denton drilling code
possibly could use some
minor update regarding fracking. Other than that Denton has
an effective
grunting drilling code that has an effective organization
and has an
effective organization to enforce that. Pardon my confusion
my hearing aids
ticked and I thought it was the time. Yeah it was the time
thank you yeah no
it was the time thank you. The other thing I might mention
was that I was part
of the drilling task force in Denton. Thank you thank you.
All right moving on
to 45 is Gina Felker. Hello Mr. Mayor City Council thank
you for hearing all
of us this evening I know it's late. My name is Gina Felker
and I'm a 13 year
resident of Denton. I live at 2-0-1-7 Parkside Drive 76201.
I support the
proposed ban on fracking because of the environmental and
health impacts on our
citizens. Noise pollution for the unfortunate residents
that have wells
within a hundred feet of their homes. The constant sounds
of the loud machinery
drilling you know day and night months at a time. Water
pollution, air pollution
from drilling and blowouts and spillage which have both
happened in Denton. My
husband and I were in the backyard with our two dogs when
the blowout happened
on Bonnie Bray. We were not aware of what happened at the
time. Our eyes were
burning and we were like what's going on what's that smell.
We went inside about
15 minutes later the news picked it up and at that point
you know I have I have
cancer and I'm thinking what trade secret chemical is
giving my cancer
cancer. Like at this point what's you know what's going on
here and that's
where it this becomes personal for me because I personally
worry about
radiation exposure. Two years ago at the age of 36 I was
diagnosed with a rare
type of thyroid cancer called Hercule cell carcinoma. The
cancer is
specifically caused by radiation exposure. Doctors cannot f
athom where I
was exposed enough to enough radiation to have caused this
cancer because most
Hercule cell patients were all exposed to Chernobyl and I
have never been to
Chernobyl. The three months after my cancer diagnosis my
dog was also
diagnosed with cancer mastocytoma. My neighbor's dog was
diagnosed with cancer
as well lymphoma. They've since passed. The thing we all
had in common was the
air that we breathe and the water that we drink. Radionuc
lide sitting in pits
and that's released when drilling happens leaves all of us
at risk for
radiation exposure and my husband and I have since moved
from the house that we
lived in for the eight of the past 13 years that we've
lived in Denton. We moved
to a new home a year and a half ago and after we moved in
we learned that the
neighborhood had been horizontally fracked a few years
prior. Now most of
the houses in our neighborhood have foundation issues now.
Cracks of the
walls, cracks in the floors, and the sinking foundations to
where you can
actually see your baseboard and you know space at your
floor. You can't expect to
pump chemicals into the earth that erode and expect the
chemical fluid left in
the earth that it isn't continually eroding the ground
beneath us. Denton has
always been known as a friendly town with great music, art,
culture, and
education. Now people hear Denton and they think of fr
acking and they think
of big oil and I ask for this band for the future of Denton
and its citizens. We
all deserve to live in a healthy environment with civil
servants that
would you know very carefully consider the health and
safety property value of
citizens homes as well as businesses. Denton is a good
community with good
people, people who frequently band together for a variety
of reasons.
Tonight we come together to ask City Council to pass the
ban on fracking to
save our community. Thank you for your time and for hearing
my concerns and
listening.
The next speaker is number 47 is is it Bailey Poston? Post
on? Okay.
My name is Bailey Poston. I'm a resident at 201 Inman
Street Denton, Texas 76201.
I'm a student at the University of North Texas. I am the
vice chair of the College
Republicans there and this ban on fracking is particularly
concerning to
me especially as a vocal minority in this community. It
will force the
drilling ban to permanently damage this entire area. In
addition to UNT one of
the main components of this area's economic vitality is sh
ale gas
production. To shut down the economic engine in Denton
would be a huge mistake.
You may ask how does this affect a college student at UNT?
I think it will
hurt UNT by hurting the Denton economy and making it less
attractive to people
who plans to stay here after graduation. I have greatly
enjoyed my time in Denton
and I love it here and have even considered taking a job
here after
graduation. Denton has an economic renaissance that has
been helped by
natural gas drilling. Our community is more vibrant than
ever because of this
and other economic investment. To take a step like this
would permanently damage
our economy and would be a huge step backwards for our
community. I believe
this ban would hurt the economy in several ways. The first
way it will
lessen the number of jobs high-paying jobs that relate to
the oil and gas
industry. These type of opportunities for our citizens are
more important to a
good quality of life. Second this ban will hurt our tax
base that funds our
schools and local governments. Denton will not want to make
cuts to schools
public safety and other vital services that service our
community. So where will
this extra money come from? From higher taxes on our
citizens. Another reason
that young people like myself will consider living in other
places
after graduation. I do not believe that oil and gas
companies though should have
a free pass to operate however they want. I'm not an expert
I'm just a UNT
student but I do feel that these oil and gas companies
should still be held to
high standards especially in the area of fracking and they
should be held
responsible for the damages that if they do occur. As you
all know gas
development has been going on in Denton for 10 years but
only recently did
Denton become a target for radical environmentalists. These
people see
Denton as a place to achieve a victory for national
environmental groups. So far
my experience with drilling in Denton has been very
positive and I'm happy to
coexist with drilling in our community. I would urge you to
reject this ban. Thank
you for letting me speak tonight. Thank you. Thank you.
Number 48 is Patrick
Handren.
Hi my name is Pat Handren. I live at 4112 Nappacourt in
Flower Mound. I've
worked in the oil and gas industry for 33 years. 32 of
those I've been fracturing
wells. I put my hands in the fluid. I've been out there
when the sand has been
pumped and even though I'm bald I attribute this to
heritage not to being
on location. The proposed ordinance to prohibit hydraulic
fracturing is
essentially a prohibition of drilling. If you take a Barn
ett shell well and you
simply drill it, it will produce about 10,000 cubic feet of
debt or 10 MCF. When
you drill a horizontal well and you fracture it, it has the
potential to make
anywhere from one to three million a day. In other words, a
hundred to three
hundred times more than what you can get out of a single
well. Consequently, there's
no economics to me drilling a hundred to three hundred
wells at today's pricing.
But notice I say at today's price. If something happens
that the price of gas
dramatically increases, then there's a possibility that
maybe I want to put a
lot of vertical wells in close density to get the gas out
of the
ground. That's what it would take, a lot of wells. And so
now instead of drilling
that one well, that's going to take me three to four weeks
drilling and
completing the well. I'm going to drill a hundred to three
hundred wells to get
that same volume of gas, which means that I'm going to put
a drilling rig in
someplace for a year to a year and a half doing just that.
Now that's
completely ludicrous. There's no economics to that. It's
not going to
happen. At least I don't think it will. The other thing
that I want to talk
about is, you know, I hear a lot of concern of people out
here about water
pollution. The thing that everyone should realize is that
even the people doing
the fracturing drink the same water. We drink the same
water, we live in the same
communities, we have the same concerns. Why would we do
anything that would
jeopardize our families, ourselves, our friends, or even
people that we don't
know? Why would we do something like that? It doesn't make
sense. So I don't know the
people that you're dealing with and really that's kind of
an issue that you
have to deal with, but I hope that you've taken the time to
educate
yourselves on what fracturing actually is by asking people
that do
fracturing. And I would hope that the people that are
opposed to it have done
the same thing because you can't learn about fracturing
from the public media
any more than a butcher can do brain surgery. So that's all
I have to say.
Thank you. Thank you. I wanted to remind people that are
sitting in the reserve
section, if you've spoken, if you wouldn't mind relocating
your seat because
people are trying to come in to speak. So that's why we
have those sort of
reserves. So just wanted to make that reminder announcement
. Speaker number
49 is George Hastings. I hope I'm not speaking at a turn,
but guys up until now
everybody's been real respectful in here and I expect the
same out of you two.
I'm just saying don't disturb this. It's gone very smoothly
up till now.
Okay and I understand Councilmember Hawkins. Gentlemen and
we appreciate you
being here and we certainly, if you're signed up to speak,
we certainly want to
hear what you have to say, but again we just appreciate
some respect and decorum
for this body and we would appreciate that and your
cooperation is greatly
appreciated. Thank you. Okay Mr. Hastings. Yes my name is
George Allen Hastings and I
live at 7030 North Haven in Dallas, Texas and we've all
gathered here in these
chambers to discuss an issue that exposes a lot of passion.
Every person in
this room believes that he or she has a complete and
correct understanding of the
issue. There may be some truth in what every speaker has
had to say, though I'm
not real sure. Consider for a moment the importance of
energy in our lives. When
you look around everything you view has a signature of
energy upon it. There's
little, if anything, that makes up daily life that doesn't
require energy from
some source. The air conditioning we're enjoying in this
room, the light that
allows us to see, the chairs that we sit in, and the
clothing that we wear, all has
energy in its past and perhaps in its present. Do you
suppose that there is any
one of us in this room who believes that he or she lives a
gluttonous or wasteful
life? Would any person here want to try to get by with less
than he has grown
used to? Everyone I know believes that his or her choices
are
reasonable and would be highly offended by such a charge
made to them. Do you
think that any of us in this room would prefer polluted
water or air? Of course
not. We all want clean air and water. Would we prefer fewer
opportunities for
employment or higher costs for products we buy or services
we receive? Again, of
course we wouldn't. What bothers me the most is this
attitude that is taken by
many. I want my comfort and convenience and I want it cheap
but don't, I don't
want any of the problems that go with it. Not in my
backyard. There's a conflict
here between reality and ideology and such. Detractors may
say that they are
not against energy or any of its use but against the fossil
fuel sources.
Hydraulic fracturing makes that source available so to stop
the activity of
fracking prevents the production of oil and gas. As has
already been said, that is
the issue. Consider those who complain about oil and gas
wells and the
nuisance that they can be. What do you say to a person who
has bought a home
that is offset by an undeveloped commercial area? A
shopping center begins
construction nearby and the dust and noise becomes a real
problem. Because of
the issues should the construction stop? Of course not.
Likewise, if a person who
has bought a home and a gas well is proposed nearby, the
gas was there along
with other minerals before the new homeowner came along.
Not to know the law
does not exempt one from its effects. To complain about the
outcome afterwards is
a childish reaction. The modern practice of hydraulic fract
uring had its start
before I was born and I'm not a young man. It has been
proven to be an
effective process that is helping the US become energy
independent to pressure,
presume that renewable resources alone are sufficient for
the country's needs
is naive and childish. Mr. Hastings, if you could finish up
. Last statement.
Don't help turn the clock back on the progress that modern
technology has
provided. Do not pass an ill-fated ban on hydraulic fract
uring in Denton. That
concludes my remarks. Thank you. Next speaker will be
number 50 Janice Bigby.
Thank you Mayor and members of the council. My name is Jan
ice Bigby and I
live at 1105 Sandpiper Drive which is near the Acme well
site. As a health
psychologist and as a mother I am very concerned about the
impact of fracking
on our health and our environment. There is already
research that suggests that
the incidences of breast cancer and leukemia are higher in
areas where there
is the highest concentration of active well sites. I
acknowledge that the
research by no means definitively links fracking to these
and other adverse
health effects but it will take 20 or more years to conduct
this type of
definitive research. I am not willing to wait 20 years to
find out what my
common sense already tells me which is that it is bad for
our health and for
our environment to spew carcinogens and toxins such as benz
ene, methane and
silica into our air, water and soil. My common sense also
tells me that it is
not a good idea to use and taint up to 6 million gallons of
water per well site
in a time when North Texas is in a drought and drought
conditions are
expected to continue for years to come. But fracking is not
only a health and
environmental concern it is a social justice issue because
the energy
companies are reaping the vast majority of the profits
while the citizens of
Denton are forced to bear the vast majority of the costs in
the form of air
pollution, noise pollution, reduced property values and
medical bills and
lost wages when someone gets sick. I ask that you use not
only your common sense
to determine that fracking is not in our best interest but
to listen to what your
conscience and your heart are telling you as well. I ask
you to imagine the
very real possibility that in the years to come you, your
friends or your family
will be diagnosed with cancer, migraines or asthma at
higher rates than would
normally be expected or that we will be forced to deal with
the environmental
impacts of fracking or threats to our water supply. Will
you wonder if you did
everything that you could do to prevent that from happening
? I can imagine that
there are real obstacles that are standing in the way of
doing what your
common sense, your conscience and your heart are telling
you to do about this
issue. If that's the case I ask you to continue to hold
these hearings, to hold
town meetings, to tell the citizens of Denton what those
obstacles are. I urge
you to continue to convene citizen-led not industry-led
task forces to help you
come up with solutions to overcome these obstacles. One
thing I know for sure is
that the citizens of Denton are talented, we are resource
ful, we are motivated and
we are more than willing to help you come up with solutions
to whatever
problems there are. Please listen to us, listen to your
conscience and work with
us to ban fracking in Denton. Thank you. Thank you. Number
51 is Brandon Walton's.
Great thank you Mayor and members of the City Council my
name is Brandon Walton's
and I live at 716 Duns to Path Colleyville Texas 76034 and
I feel a
little unprepared I don't have a skit but I just have facts
with me. I didn't
realize it would be a talent portion but a couple of years
ago the Fort Worth City
Council did a study on the Barnett Shale and a lot of
people have talked about
this I'll just go through it real quick but essentially we
all know that the
Barnett Shale has a big impact especially in North Texas
where we live. In fact in
the last 13 years the Barnett Shales generated almost 40%
of the area's
economic growth that's been attributed to the Barnett Shale
. There was an article
yesterday in the Star Telegram that talked about a study I
'm sure you saw it
that looked at what the effects would be on Denton and the
economy the local
economy if this does this ban does indeed pass and
essentially the say said
that the city would lose over 250 million dollars in 2,000
jobs over the
next decade. Now all this economic development of course I
think this is
important to say would be outweighed if this activity were
harming our health
and our environment. No amount of economic development is
worth ruining our
environment over but in terms of shale energy as we're
talking about tonight
this trade-off is a false choice presented by those who
have their own
anti-fossil fuel agendas. Hydraulic fracturing has been
done safely for over
50 years in this country. Despite the hype and misstat
ements coming from the
activist community the fact is that hydraulic fracturing
occurs far below
drinking water aquifers and is separated from the water
supply by a mile or more
of impenetrable rock and multiple layers of steel and
concrete casings at depths
where groundwater is present. The process is very highly
regulated we've talked
about the regulations imposed not only by local governments
but the state and
the Railroad Commission an interesting quote is from Obama
's former EPA
administrator Lisa Jackson said quote I'm not aware of any
proven case where
hydraulic fracturing itself has affected water and this
proclaims regarding air
pollution which which some have brought up the TCEQ the
environmental quality
commission recently surveyed a hundred natural gas
facilities and found no
cause for concerned about potentially dangerous pollutants
also an air quality
study done for the city of Fort Worth in 2011 identified no
health concerns from
natural gas drilling and today there's a number of rules of
the state and local
level like I said designed to ensure the safe responsible
proper management of
all aspects of hydraulic fracturing hydraulic fracturing in
the oil and gas
drilling operations the technology is sound and safe and
claims to the
contrary are in many cases merely tactics designed to slow
down or stop
oil and natural gas drillings for reasons unrelated to
environmental concerns so
in conclusion I think it's a real shame and I encourage you
to look past these
bogus claims and please make the right decision the
decision to allow
responsible energy development to continue in Denton thank
you thank you
next speaker will be number 52 Patricia Andrews
listening to all the concerns appreciate it Patricia Andrew
s I live at 3033
country Club Road within the city limits of Denton and
speaking to you not as an
expert but as a 23 year resident of Denton a landowner and
a mineral rights
owner I've had a gasball on my property I remember the
enthusiasm and expectation
of profits with which I gladly signed the lease agreement
and while I had a
contract a fairly good one written by an independent lawyer
I found that I
scrutinized the provisions of my profits better than the
risks to my property and
person I believe the city of Denton and many of our
residents do the same today
our well was drilled in May of 2004 completed in June it
took eight months to
see any production out of the well and then it only
produced roughly 28,000 MCS
in the three years of production the operator only earned a
hundred and
twelve thousand seven hundred and twenty dollars on his
million dollar
investment in the well I'm estimating that at about four
dollars per MCF which
I think is perhaps even a little bit optimistic
significantly the well
production was stopped because of noise complaints from our
neighbors I didn't
dispute their claims it was noisy but the production before
the noise
complaints was minuscule less than a hundred and five MCF
per month of the
last two years my disappointment with the oil and gas
industry did not really
begin until it was time to get the mess cleaned up we had a
water pit covering
five acres a pad site covering another two and tanks and
other production
facilities that covered another acre now I'm not asking
anybody to blame anybody
about me because I signed the lease and I agreed to all
this however we did have
a contract that said that they were to restore the property
to its pre drilling
conditions that didn't happen until years later after we
had contacted the
company numerous times finally had to get hold of the Rail
road Commission have
the lease determined or the the well determined abandoned
and the lease
nullified and then even after that we had to get the Rail
road Commission back
involved and the city of Denton to come back and get that
company back there to
clean up the mess the noise the destruction of land the
lack of
compliance by the operator were only some of the problems
we also had one of
our horses die six months after drilling commenced within
five feet of the
wellhead there had been a leak of fluid from the well and
the horse was found
near the puddle of water could say what you want it's no
indication of any
problems with that horse until we went out there found him
dead near that pool
of water I don't understand why it's critical to the
citizens of Denton that
we have gas production in our backyards in my experience
and the research of the
wells around the area where I live it's not the productions
not justified by the
expense of drilling the wear and tear on our infrastructure
and the potential
health hazard two wells down the street from me appear to
be only there well
they're producing less than 400 MCS now and that's been the
case for the last
six years now that those wells have been flood and my fear
is that once leases
are signed the productions maintained as long as possible
despite minimal outfit
to prevent having to play cleanup costs and continue to
have the leases active
on the properties so they can then come back and be fracked
again and again every
two to three years using more of our water more of our
infrastructure and I
hope you take these into consideration thank you thank you
next speaker will be
number 53 will Wheaton hello no more stirbances thank you
my name is Will
Wooten I live at 2210 Westwood I've lived in Denton for 10
years on and off
I've actually lived in a couple states during that time
working but I consider
Denton my home this Mr. Wheaton I don't mean to interrupt
you but I think you
got a June bug or something on your shoulder I just on your
other shoulder
right there yeah thank you all right go ahead we'll give
you a couple seconds
back thank you sorry about that it was distracting I've
noticed your faces when
these elected officials have been coming up here Mrs. crown
over and Estes saying
that they're ready to help I've been coming to these mini
meetings since 2009
they have not done anything and don't plan on it and I don
't understand why at
this point after five years y'all believe a word that they
're saying I
just I just don't get it and so these people seem to they'd
be ready to sell
their kids for a profit they don't care about this
community I live here they're
calling us out-of-state agitators they're calling us
radicals the only
people that don't live in Denton that are at this meeting
are the industry folks
that are coming well what are we like what are we supposed
to do to say this
is my council you you are my representatives here and for
two and a
half hours we listened to people from out of the city come
in and comment and
I just don't understand why it's necessary this is our city
we shouldn't
be able to make the decisions in our city that's the libert
arian conservative
position thank you very much they've been calling us they
've said we're funded
and working in the interest of Russia these people don't
have any idea of
what they're talking about and you shouldn't listen to a
word they say we've
been doing this for too long to listen to anything they're
saying so I guess the
last point I want to make you all a lot of you look like
you're the NBA type
working in business have you ever the word externalities I
'll speak your
language externalities of fracking they're not paying for
any of them if
they had to pay for the externalities of their process it
would be
uneconomical to continue they would not be able to continue
if they had to pay
for all the poison they put in into our air all the poison
they put into our
water these they keep saying that the economy of this
entire city is going to
crash why we have the we have the stats that have been
presented here tonight
that just make that ridiculous it's the city is going to be
stronger with a ban
on fracking the people that you want to stay in this city
that go to this school
are going to stay because they know this is one of the best
cities in Texas to
live in I've lived in five different states in the last ten
years and I've
come back because I love this city and I want this city to
represent me I want
the people on this council to represent me and I don't want
you to represent
people that don't live in this city thank you very much
thank you next
speaker will be number 54 Orin Thomas Orin Thomas all right
does it seem like
mr. Thomas is present number 55 Elise Ogletree good evening
mayor and City
Council my name is Elise Ogletree I'm located at 3401 Buck
thorn Lane Denton
Texas I'm one of the Meadows of Hickory Meadows of Hickory
Creek residences I am
an engineer but I'm currently coming to you as a concerned
citizen a mother of a
21 month old girl and a four-year-old special needs boy my
house is currently
200 feet from one of Eagle Ridge's frac sites and another
800 from another this
yellow is my house here is their drilling site I could
throw a tennis
ball and hit their property my actual next-door neighbor
recently put their
house on the market because they're tired of what's going
on they received
an offer that was about 15 less than what the city of Dent
on appraised their
house at the person that put in the offer hadn't come and
visited the home
when they did they saw what was behind this residency and
they backed out their
offer they ended up having to take another offer just to
sell their home
because they had already put another offer out somewhere
else this is the
view of my backyard if you want to put it down there then
the entire audience
could see it thank you if we could have the overhead please
thank you it
literally is two feet higher than the rest of my property
and so we can just
see the tanks they're there all the time I was told when we
bought our home
there were gonna be houses behind it I expected
construction I didn't expect
fracking you've heard people talk oh it's only a couple
days oh it only takes
a day it started in August and it didn't get out of here
until March and it's
actually still going on they have the compressor station
right there we
constantly hear it during their drilling and their fracking
and their old
preparation I could set a glass of water on my counter and
I could see it
vibrate it reminded me of Jurassic Park seeing the water
move I came home from
work several times parked my vehicle in the front yard
while I got my mail I
couldn't even tell my vehicle was running that's how noisy
it was we hear
about these regulations and you know how they have to
follow this and that the
thing about it is I've come home it's been loud I've called
made a complaint
it gets quiet an hour later it's noisy again why because
when the inspection
happens they'll turn their operations off they'll make it
all look nice and
pretty but once those inspectors go away they go back to
whatever they they were
doing I was one of the citizens that called 911 several
times in concern of
what was going on I begged to get a call back from the gas
well administrator
just so I could talk and understand more what's going on I
never received an
email I never received a phone call back I don't know what
's going on with that
particular per se happen but it was scary they say
accidents should be
prevented by these regulations the definition of an
accident though is an
accident is unexpected and undesirable event especially one
resulting in damage
or harm I used to go to work every day wondering if I get a
phone call hey did
you see on the news there was an explosion the thing is
that has happened
we're lucky it didn't happen directly in our neighborhood
but there has been
problems and that's what an accident is if something was to
happen to one of the
well sites next to these homes my home would have been
destroyed along with
many of our other neighbors I just have one more thing I
want to say thank you
also my home is literally falling apart our dining room
light which is actually
not a dining room is our kids play area randomly fell from
the ceiling I don't
know if it's a poor builder DR Horton or if it's because of
the fracking that is
200 free from my home no one else in my neighborhood has
experienced something
like this but also I'm one of the closest victims please
City Council
approve our ban and prevent this damage and suffering to
our citizens thank you
the next speakers oh yes oh sorry sorry about that council
member road thank you
mayor thank you Kevin appreciate you coming up here it
looks like you're one
of the closest to one of these well sites in your
neighborhood so your
experience is important for everyone to understand this
talk to me about you
said you had a four-year-old boy and a 22 month old
daughter I think what was
it like for them cage that's my little girl she would wake
up randomly in the
night when all this commotion was going on to random bump
ing noises grindings
bangings I didn't know what they were she didn't know what
they were she would
cry she was afraid to go towards the back door because
there was some noise
coming from there I can't explain it to her all I can do is
comfort her but she
was afraid to go outside because of all the noise I
personally wouldn't let my
kids go outside aside from going on the school bus since
Kyle my four-year-old
he does go to school but that was the only time he was
allowed outside they're
not old enough to understand it and I hope that as
evolution happens I'm
hoping that they don't grow up in a they don't reach my age
and buy a home and go
through what I've gone through I would I would never want
to subject someone to
the suffering we have gone through even if I own I don't
own the minerals most
of us don't but if I own the minerals I would be ashamed to
collect anything
from it it's it's depressing thank you thank you thank you
just want to remind
people who have numbers up to 76 if they're not already
present to sort of
make their way to the council chambers we'll go to number
56 Sandy Maddox
good evening I'm sure you all recognize the name I live at
4008 Vineyard Way in
the vintage which is one of the two neighborhoods sandwich
ed or trapped
between between two gas compressors with no vapor recovery
units on them this
will probably seem a little disjointed because I was making
some notes as I
heard some comments this evening first of all let me clear
up I'm not a radical
environmentalist I'm not on a patriotic I'm not a terrorist
although my high
school students might beg to differ on certain days we've
heard a lot of talk
tonight about mineral rights trumping property owner rights
or landowner
rights I don't think they should trump human rights and I
do consider this a
human rights issue the type of conditions I'm 1,500 feet
from both wells
so I'm one of the lucky people in the area the type of
living conditions that
the people in the vintage area have had to live through
during the fracking and
it's an entire process the actual fracking of one well may
take several
days but first you have the trucks coming in first you have
the horizontal
drilling with benzene being spewed into the air during that
and that went on for
several weeks then you have the actual fracking then you
have flow back and
flaring and then you get your lift compressor with its
pollution and its
noise so it is not a one-day process it is a several month
process and I
understand we can look forward to experiencing this about
every two to
three years for people to live through those conditions is
a human rights
violation it is inhumane the noise the pollution the odor I
've had to hear
people in my community talk about these symptoms that
either arose or were
exacerbated during this long process migraines nosebleeds
asthma OCD rashes
seizures and those took place or worsened during the fr
acking to expect
people to live through those conditions is a human rights
violation I know we
have a lot of people from the industry here this evening
who don't live in
Denton or don't live 250 feet from a gas compressor with no
vapor recovery unit
they're not experiencing it you don't represent them you
were elected to
represent the citizens of Denton I think I heard mr.
Ireland say you should not
pass the fracking ban because it's because of its possible
global economic
repercussions are we supposed to be poisoned for the global
economy for the
benefit of the global economy miss crown over
representative crown over said that
frackings and inconvenience and sometimes for progress we
have to live
with inconveniences it's not an inconvenience it's a living
hellish
nightmare the prep the pro pack pro fact fracking ban that
was submitted
tonight as a mockery which you've probably read about how
it was it was
brought let me close with a quote a famous civil rights
leader said
leadership cannot just go along to get along leadership
must meet the moral
challenge of the day today's moral challenge for this city
is the human
rights violation that is fracking isn't as done in the
vintage area and elsewhere
in Denton's home schools play areas and hospitals conquer
this moral challenge
past the fracking ban thank you thank you thank you thank
you Sandy number
57 is Matthew Fry
my name is Matthew Fry I live at 1600 Highland Park Road
here in Denton since
the early 2000s a consistent claim has been that fracking
benefits local
economies early claims relied on the predictive powers of
economic models
however after over a decade of fracking in Denton we have
firsthand knowledge
and data that can be used to empirically test some of those
early claims there
are five main ways that the money from fracking could
benefit people in Denton
predictions by the industry suggested that drilling
operations and royalty
payments would create jobs and generate economic spillovers
for example the
Perryman group predicted 5.92 percent growth in private
employment however
peer-reviewed studies by economists found much lower
figures with only 1.5
percent economic gains moreover economists have argued that
industry
supported studies are misleading and offer questionable
estimates for Denton
we still don't know exactly how much the local economy has
been affected but it's
worth noting that none of the operators who have worked in
the city have
headquarters or offices based in Denton and although a few
affiliated companies
have offices in Denton the number of Denton jobs directly
related to gas
production is limited with the mining sector accounting for
a fraction of
local employment and though there may be spillover jobs it
's hard to separate
these from jobs created by DFW's rapid urbanization a
recent study shows that
increases in mineral property taxes allowed rural areas in
the region to
increase their spending on education however in cities
where there are more
surface properties the share of taxes that come from the
middle properties is
much lower as in Denton where mineral property taxes amount
to just 1% of the
total property tax revenue supposedly more and cheaper gas
should reduce the
prices of consumable commodities produced with that gas
however this past
May marked the third time in three years that Atmos energy
increased rates in
Denton thus fracking Denton has not led to lower costs for
Denton's gas
consumers although data on royalties is difficult to obtain
county tax appraisal
data can be used as a proxy for Denton's royalty payments
my current research and
preliminary results with dr. Brighill show that at least 60
% of Denton's
mineral owners do not live in the city and they receive at
least 60% of the
value of the royalty payments thus the majority of the roy
alties are not funneled
back into Denton's economy and those are the royalty owners
who who own all the
royalties in on Denton's Wells and where they're located in
terms of local
mineral owners over 600 Denton residents who own minerals
received just 7.3% of
total value of minerals it's 2% if the share of the roy
alties that go to the
operators is factored in otherwise family trusts and the
city of the city
control the largest share of Denton's minerals and as you
can see the city
uses its gas well royalties to fund a number of different
projects and so
those are the royalty owners location in Denton and those
are the gas wells in
the city limits last slide finally economic studies rarely
factor into the
monetary cost of drilling in flower mound property values
decrease within a
thousand feet of wells in Denton many homes are closer than
a thousand feet
new homes can be built 250 feet from gas wells and a
growing number of peer
reviewed empirical studies estimate medical expenditures
associated with
fracking to conclude while Denton has experienced some
monetary benefits from
fracking the benefits do not appear to be as substantial as
some are arguing we
also know that the primary economic beneficiaries are not
based in Denton
and although rarely discussed there are real economic costs
associated with this
activity thank you Councilmember Gregory has a question yes
do you have a hard
copy of that that would be available for us it will be it's
it's being reviewed
right now and it's what the article is being reviewed right
now so the okay and
I saw what I appeared to be a few footnotes at the bottom
with your
sources yeah I can share that with you too that would be
helpful yeah we're
getting we're getting an awful lot of as you've noticed
tonight rather different
data being presented to us as factual and and so data with
with those footnotes
with the sources is very helpful in terms of us making
reasonable decisions
yeah there's several studies there's some recent studies to
with the setback
distances that you asked about earlier and several
researchers have found one
researcher was claiming 1.5 miles distance from wells where
they're seeing
health impacts and other ones are claiming about 0.5 miles
and so I was
particularly interested in in the the the back up on that
particular no I'm
happy to share that thank you very much we have a quick
question Councilmember
Rodin yes you think it's quick no it is I just want to
clarify you I've heard
these two stats so there's 2% of royalties that go to Dent
on families but
you also had 7.2 or 7.3 and the difference there was when
you account
for what goes to the operator is that what you said so when
you look at the
DCAD data there's they have royalty interests so that
people the the mineral
owners and then they have a working interest and the
working interest is
what's divided out and goes to the actual operators and
that is about 75% of
the total interests in the city and so you know that to me
is is can be
factored out of this equation because that kind of goes
with the costs of what
they're doing right and so so that's where it comes in so
it's it's a 2%
factor when you factor in that 75% working interest super
helpful thank
thanks for your work yeah Councilmember Gregory echoed I
mean we're getting an
onslaught of this I mean folks are sending this to our
doors so perhaps
some folks can come up with $40,000 to do the same with a
different economic
study to send out to folks as well but that's helpful
information so I
appreciate it all right thank you the next speaker will be
number 58 Jim
McKinney I'm Jim McKinney I live at 2019 Crestwood place in
Denton I've spoken
with mr. Gregory on the phone back when he was my guy in
district 2 and I drink
mr. Hawkins coffee all the time delicious and I voted for
mr. Ryan on
purely generational grounds I'm in my 40s when we when new
things come along we
get to decide how we want to deal with those things for
instance texting on
your phone is a relatively new technology and so that we
won't get head
on on McKinney Avenue we in Denton decided to ban texting
while driving and
that's because it's dangerous so we banned it we heard from
the industry
tonight that this fracking is not your grandfather's fr
acking it's something
new and we get to decide if we want to that if it's
something too dangerous we
can ban it from our city I'm not sure why a municipality
would trade scarce
water for gas of which there's a glut I just don't think
that we need the gas we
don't want the pollution and we can't spare the water and
all this was really
brought home to me one day when I was jogging in South
Lakes Park and as I
cleared that little clutch of trees there next to the Huron
statue I saw a
drilling rig which to me seemed like it was inside the park
I've since learned
that it's just outside of the park it was close enough
though that when I
looked up at the worker in the rig we could have nodded
hello to each other we
wouldn't have had to wave to each other but closer to that
rig than I was is
McMath Middle School those kids are exposed to that stuff
every day
whatever is going on there and I've since learned that they
're able to get
around the setback there because it's a hole somebody put
in the ground 40 or
50 years ago or something the people of 40 or 50 years ago
cannot shackle us to
whatever they did back then not knowing what it was going
to result in today
and if anybody doesn't think that it's a disaster for an
industrial mining
operation to be happening on top of a middle school I don't
know what to say
because it's clearly a disaster I think that we're gonna
reap what we sow in
this city and right now I'm of the belief that we're sowing
chemical-laden
water into the ground where we live and we're sowing
invisible toxins into the
air that we breathe and we've already started reaping some
of the fruit of
that asthma cancer and why for a little bit of money thanks
guys thank you the
next speaker will be number 59 Jerry Simmons
his bugs still crawling around mr. mayor council members
this is great I have the
distinction of being your out-of-state agitator I'm Jerry
Simmons from Tulsa
Oklahoma I'm the executive director of the National
Association of Royalty
Owners and the Royalty Owners and Producers Education
Coalition I came
here because this is a national issue this is going on all
over the country
right now talks like this in council chambers I'll talk to
you a minute about
what happened in Colorado New York the the appellate court
just decided a case
on behalf of two municipalities that wanted to impose bans
the difference in
New York State and here there's no production anywhere
close to those
cities and not a chance of any production close to those
cities just so
you know several of my comments were already covered
tonight so I won't go
over him especially from a former Supreme Court justice and
what he had to
say but I will read something to you this is from the the
fifth amendment of
the US Constitution the last line says nor shall private
property be taken for
public use without just compensation and I've heard that
said several ways
tonight just is what's key right there okay I did a little
homework yesterday I
went to the railroad Commission website the latest
production reported for March
for Denton County I couldn't get the city but but for Dent
on County was about
17 billion cubic feet of gas go to the energy information
administration look
what gas spot price was in March about four dollars and
forty cents that's
74 million dollars of natural gas was sold in Denton County
in the month of
March of this year at a three sixteenths royalty that's
probably about an average
that's 14 million dollars in royalty income that went out I
don't care who
it went to it went out and believe me that's just
compensation and that's what
those people are gonna want every month for what 20 years
that's what you guys
have before you okay and when you've heard a former chief
justice say the
lawyers are gonna line up I promise you they are they're
lining up in New York
in Colorado there's three three cities I can't say
municipalities tonight three
cities that impose some type of a ban or or moratorium in
Boulder County we are
on behalf of our members commissioned an engineering study
to value what that's
worth those cities in Boulder County may be on the hook for
about a billion
dollars that's if a takings case goes and it's gonna go all
the way the Supreme
Court we already know that and and millions of dollars in
litigation that
doesn't have to occur that's my message to you consider
that when you're making
your decision please thank you the next speaker will be
number 60 Todd Ellis
hi I'm Todd Ellis I hope I make sense I'm getting tired and
a little delirious
but I came here to support the ban on fracking could you
give your address to
I'm sorry 3437 Chris Sephoro Drive in Denton thank you okay
like I said I came
to support the ban on fracking a lot of my issues I support
the ban on many
issues many I could I could have spoken about a lot of them
have already been
covered but I did want to mention a personal experience I
've had and then
one comment I think hasn't been covered very much I have
been a bicycle commuter
for about 30 years a lot of that motive for that was that I
've been concerned
with air quality and I've also I've also been very health
conscious but it wasn't
until I came to Denton that I've ever had a medical issue I
've never been to a
doctor or bought a prescription drug until I moved to Dent
on and I've only
been here two years and within a year and a half I was in
the emergency room
of a hospital unable to breathe and completely don't know
why I've never had
a medical issue in my life and I move here I'm in an
emergency room I've gone
to urgent cares I've been to the doctor and now I am using
an inhaler on a daily
basis usually I need to go home right now and hit it I'm
starting to have to
breathe I've so became I've always been very concerned
about air quality but
especially since I've had breathing difficulties here I'm
looking at trying
to correlate as much as I can what that could be I've been
monitoring ozone
levels on a daily basis and I can't find any correlation
between my breathing
difficulty and my breathing difficulty and the ozone level
of any given day it
can be a good ozone level that day and I can have
difficulty breathing I've been
monitoring for also a few months the various pollens that
are in the air and
there's no correlation between I have not found any
correlation between any given
pollen that's in the air and a day of difficult breathing
the only correlation
I can find is there's a lot of fracking in the city and
that was the last
correlation I started looking at and there I've found now
that there are
scores of scientific peer-reviewed studies showing that
there is higher
incidence of asthma in communities that have fracking that
have a lot of fracking
so I support the ban I hope that you will ban it the only
comment I wanted to
make is that I've heard a lot of discussion from opponents
of the ban
that they're concerned about energy independence and the
economic benefits
of energy development which I think is just as strong an
argument for
supporting renewable energies like solar and wind I think
if we cared about energy
independence and the economic development of it we would be
in invent
investing in solar panels and wind wind turbines just as so
anyway thank you for
your time thank you the next speaker will be number 61
Allison trap hello my
name is Allison trap and I live at 3437 Crystal 4 o drive
in Denton Texas and I
am proud to say that I am actually from Denton and I too
was a Bronco just a few
years after you though in fact my family was among the
first settlers of Denton
so I know and I appreciate this music loving art support
and quirky little
college town that I call home and I am here tonight in
support of the ban on
fracking in the city of Denton all citizens and especially
the town that I
live in and the citizens that I love and the place I call
home all citizens
should have clean air to breathe and clean water to drink
that is not too
much to ask and fracking will destroy that we know that now
our quality of
life must not be sacrificed for corporate greed didn't is a
great community
and it is time for didn't to make a great and a brave
choice and ban fracking
today I am a homeowner in Denton and today my home is not
within 200 feet of
a fracking well like so many other people in this community
but tomorrow it
could be tomorrow fracking could be in your backyard or in
your backyard or in
yours please support the ban on fracking in the city of
Denton thank you for your
time thank you the next speaker is number 62 Sarah
Begiri
mayor Watts councilman thank you so much for hearing me out
tonight it's midnight
my hats are off to you I can't believe we're here at
midnight thank you so
much okay welcome to myth busters Denton
addition but name and address name and address I live at
3201 Westgate and
Denton that's district 3 pretty close to some condensate
tanks they smell all
right myth busters denton edition I will dispel myths
fabrications and
misinformation surrounding the proposed fracking ordinance
in two minutes and
37 seconds or less number one mineral owners are not in
favor of the fracking
ordinance false I am a mineral owner and I'm in favor of
the fracking ordinance
- I guess I'm the 2% - it will cost the city 1 million
trillion dollars to
defend this ordinance in court balls I understand that the
city spends a small
fortune and legal fees and in my humble opinion doesn't get
much in return for
those legal fees but that doesn't mean that all attorneys
are vultures preying
on tax dollars to pay for their lifestyles you may not
believe me but some
of us practice law because it's our calling and because we
wish to advance
society in a good way some of those attorneys work at
nonprofit
environmental law firms and those organizations sole charge
is to provide
legal services in exactly the scenario that we find
ourselves in that we will
find ourselves in after you vote tonight and pass to ban
this ordinance 3 you get
what you pay for in legal services false as comforting as
it is to think that in
our market economy all products and services are priced
according to their
intrinsic value it simply isn't true in the case of legal
services the amount of
money that you pay for legal services has no bearing on the
quality of legal
representation that you get what counts as specialization
organizational
capacity focus and passion of the attorneys that's what
counts in your
legal representation and you can get that at any price
point number four this
ordinance has flaws and so we shouldn't pass it false when
it comes to the laws
of man there are there is no such thing as perfection this
isn't a perfect
ordinance but it's a good ordinance whose time has come it
's been five years
that I've been coming here it's good because the product it
's the product of
years of analysis on the needs of this community because
its harm is
exponentially outweighed by its benefits and most
importantly because democracy
demands it I have a simple question for you it's math the
Supreme Court of the
United States has ruled that in elections your money is
your voice whose
voice do you think will be heard if you call an election to
this matter and I
will leave you with an ancient proverb better a diamond
with a flaw than a stone
without with this petition the citizens are telling you
that we no longer wish
to live in the Stone Age thank you thank you next speaker
is number 63 Naomi
Meyer
hello my name is dr. Naomi Meyer thank you for the
opportunity to speak tonight
dr. Meyer would you mind giving your address to you I'm
sorry I live at
1400 La Mirada here in Denton Texas I've lived in Denton
for more than 15 years
now and my husband and I have chosen to raise our two
children here because we
love Denton so much I'm here tonight to ask the council
members to adopt the
ordinance which will ban hydraulic fracturing and Denton
for several
reasons as a public health professional I'm concerned with
the human health
impacts of natural gas production coming to light as
further research is carried
out two fellow public health professionals dr. Rhonda love
and dr.
Jessica Gouyan and I submitted a summary of scientific
studies related to gas
drilling and health to City Council and the gas drilling
task force members in
December 2011 in this paper we detailed emerging evidence
of harmful chemicals
used and emitted during the natural gas operations it also
details evidence of
negative health impacts related to natural gas production I
have copies for
all of you tonight which I'll pass out after I'm done but I
'd like to share
some of the main findings from that review as we know
pollution has negative
impacts negative impacts on human health portions of our
community such as
children the elderly and those coping with chronic health
conditions are more
vulnerable to these hazards than others concerns have been
raised about the
effects of gas exploration and production on air quality
drinking water
and other damages to the natural environment all of which
directly
impact human health evidence suggests there is no threshold
below which air
pollution does not have a negative impact on health the
Dallas Fort Worth
Metroplex has consistently been defined as a non-attainment
area with levels of
air pollution exceeding limits in the national ambient air
quality standards
much of this results from vehicle emissions but much also
comes from
industrial activities including natural gas production
water related pollution
concerns include contamination of aquifers to discharge
into surface water
supplies and the large quantities of water used in the
hydraulic hydraulic
fracturing process another concern for water quality is the
fact that regulators
allow natural gas producers to contaminants they use in
production
secret this leaves those in charge of monitoring and
maintaining water quality
without important information related to the contaminants
which could
potentially be present it has been estimated that the water
consumed in a
fracking process is equivalent to the amount of water
consumed by five million
people each year numerous contaminants have been identified
at natural gas
production sites in the Barnett shale including volatile
organic compounds
diesel exhaust nitrogen and sulfuric oxides ozone partic
ulate matter
polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons heavy metals and hydrogen
sulfide all of these
contaminants are known to pose a threat to human health as
one of the authors of
this as another one of the authors of this review of health
impacts dr. Ronda
love stated earlier tonight the scientific evidence of
negative health
impacts continues to grow as stated by many before me this
evening
Denton citizens have made numerous efforts to protect
themselves from
natural gas operations without success I stand with them
tonight and ask the City
Council to adopt the ordinance which will ban hydraulic
fracturing in the
city of Denton thank you thank you thank you dr. Meyer the
next speaker will be
number 64 Dave Smith thank you mr. mayor gentlemen I'm a
Lewisville resident 642
Reno Street in Lewisville Texas but I've been a Denton
County resident for over
40 years now and in that 40 years I've been in the
petroleum business I've been
petroleum sales for 50 plus years and that's with Amaco and
independent
manufacturers I'm required to read the MSDA sheets and know
what's on there
know what chemicals are available what's going on most of
us have more tiling
benzene in our garage to use as paint thinner and other
products than has used
in the fracking process the other side of that is I'm gonna
speak against this
man is simply that you have a number of again he asked for
a solution to the
problem I'm going to suggest there are good fracking
companies out there a lot
of the cities that I deal with put out bids for the
products and the things
that they use at the same time you've got drillers here and
you can put in
your ordinance or putting your information a requirement
for certain
fracking companies to be used that eliminates the low-class
operations
that are out there with that I'm gonna I think I've said my
piece thank you sirs
thank you thank you next speaker is number 65 Tara Hunter
hi I'm Tara
Hunter I live at 804 West Hickory Street Denton Texas 76201
I moved to Denton
five years ago for UNT's excellent music program I married
my husband here and
I'm now an administrator for a nonprofit music school prior
to living here I'm
sorry to say that I never voted in a local election but it
was the effects of
fracking on my loved ones and neighbors that led me to get
involved I still
remember the first neighborhood meeting with Miley in the
vintage where I heard
parents comparing their children's symptoms since fracking
had moved in
fracking is also the one issue that has made my husband and
I consider moving
away from this place that we love so much I'm a runner and
a singer two
things that don't work very well with our air quality here
for the time being
we've decided to stay and fight although my life looks like
an emergency inhaler
four times a week and the occasional emergency room visit
the other night I
walked up to the square and it was approached by three men
from the group
Denton taxpayers for a stronger economy they said they were
from Dallas and
were being paid per signature they were spreading such
misinformation such as
the city of Denton has been taking land by imminent domain
for fracking and even
going so far as to say that theirs was the petition to ban
fracking so I feel
compelled to you note the differences between the petition
before you tonight
and this bogus petition first of all I gathered 200 of
those signatures for the
fact we didn't campaign and I was not paid when I talked to
my neighbors and
I'm proud to see that say that every single person I asked
on my street
signed after a rational conversation and access to the full
wording of the
petition they're from a range of ages and political
standpoints and this is in
the historic district also our petition had to be signed by
registered voters of
Denton this one can be signed by people from out of town
another group that
people haven't mentioned as much is called keep Texas
working you might see
their ads on Facebook and social media interestingly Luke
Bell Snyder the
executive director of this group which doesn't appear to
exist outside of
paperwork in a website he is on the delinquent filer lobby
ist list for the
on the Texas Ethics Commission site and you can look it up
so all of this is
very irritating to citizens who've been working really hard
on this petition
so what I want to say to the industry and to you all is
that they will pay for
a bus down here from out of state they'll pay people four
dollars a
signature for a bogus petition that has no legal binding
but you won't pay for a
vapor recovery unit to reduce the toxic air emissions to
our community you'll be
leaving town on your bus tonight which I'm glad of but we
'll still be here
dealing with asthma attacks nosebleeds and watching our
cancer rates skyrocket
so think about that on your way back to Oklahoma I'm sure
like you like us some
of you must feel indignation about this fracking operators
that are not based in
Denton takes 70% of the wealth and absentee mineral owners
take another 20%
so as you've heard only 2% is owned by Denton families
while the entire Denton
population gets to tote the health cost bill of living and
failing air quality
blowouts and spills so in conclusion you know nearly 2,000
registered voters of
Denton have already brought this before you that's you know
more people in
Denton want to ban on fracking than voted for any of you to
respectfully the
city has the chance to save its citizens from this onsla
ught of deceit but by
prolonging this further you only subject residents to more
of these attacks and
more months of the cancer causing effects of fracking but
you can lead the
way so I urge you to pass the ban thanks thank you thank
you the next speaker
will be number 66 Carol soap
hi my name is Carol soap and I live at 1620 Victoria in
Denton we've politicized
just about everything in this country and there is one
thing that politics
hasn't divided and that's the obligation that we all have
to protect our children
from harm there is a profound difference between the vote
being taken tonight by
City Council to ban fracking and the vote that citizens
will take in November
if you do not pass the ban tonight your vote to pass the
ban is a vote for those
who cannot vote in November it is a vote to protect the
health and safety of
Denton's youngest and most vulnerable residents the
citizens the children have
oh I'm sorry not the citizens the children the children
have no say as to
whether wells are fracked near school playgrounds or near
their homes they
have been victimized suffering nosebleeds rashes headaches
and asthma
all exacerbated by the unhealthful and toxic emissions of
fracking your vote
to pass the ban tonight will give them a voice and truly
defend their right to a
healthy future as they grow up in Denton think of the
children when you pass the
ban tonight because they can't vote in November it's you
tonight that are
voting for them thank you
thank you the next speaker will be number 67 Ed Sov
good evening and thank you for your patience you should
pass this ordinance
tonight head I'm sorry name and I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm
sorry to interrupt
you Ed Sov 1620 Victoria Drive in Denton you should pass
this ordinance tonight
for reasons that you already know you are aware of the fr
acking industry's
tactics it vilifies the messenger rather than address the
message it spends
thousands and thousands of dollars on advertisements and
mailings and
dishonest petitions that disseminate doubt and confusion
the fracking industry
uses the same methods of distraction and distortion to
delay protective
regulation as we're used by the tobacco the asbestos and
the lead industries all
deadly you should pass this ordinance tonight because you
are acutely aware of
the mistakes that the city has already made those mistakes
continue to erode
the public's confidence and trust in city staff and City
Council passing the
ordinance will be a momentous step toward restoring that
trust you should
pass the ordinance tonight because you know that the state
agencies that are
supposed to regulate the industry and protect the public
health are either
grossly incompetent or shamefully corrupt you should pass
the ordinance
tonight because you know that many eyes locally nationally
and internationally
are watching the perception that as they says the Guardian
newspaper in London
said the Denton is quote a fracking hell can either be
reinforced or forever
dispelled by you tonight you should pass this ordinance
tonight because you know
that the legal tide is turning cities are winning lawsuits
that vindicate
their powers of home rule and citizens are winning their
lawsuits because of
the horrible impacts on their health and property inflicted
by fracking you
should pass this ordinance tonight because you know that it
can be
rescinded when it has been determined by scientific
consensus and peer-reviewed
research much of what you've heard tonight that fracking
does not
contribute to climate change does not waste precious water
or poison wells and
aquifers does not jeopardize our health with emissions of
cancer causing
chemicals does not contribute to ozone formation does not
cause earthquakes
does not exacerbate childhood asthma and does not endanger
our city with
explosions and spills well then the ban can be lifted and
finally you must pass
this ordinance tonight because those whose future health
and safety need
protection the most the children of Denton have no voice
your vote to pass
the ban will be for the health and safety of all of Denton
's residents you
have the knowledge you have the foresight and you have the
power and you
have the obligation to all of us to do that to pass the ban
thank you very much
thank you next speaker will be number 68 Pauline
Raphson no sorry okay all right state your name and address
please good
evening my name is Pauline Raphson I live at 2015 Bowling
Green Street in
Denton Texas like many dedicated citizens who are here
tonight I am no
newcomer to the fracking debate I have attended countless
information meetings
task force meetings PNZ meetings and City Council meetings
over the last four
years I have learned way more about fracking than I ever
wanted to we
citizens have tried really hard to solve our fracking
issues by way of regulation
it just doesn't work here because of Denton's particular
situation and
because even when there are rules they are neither followed
by the fracking
industry nor enforced by the people in charge what we need
is a ban and that
ban shouldn't go up for a vote in November it should be
passed by you our
elected officials you need to send the clear message that
you have heard the
concerns of your citizens big and small and that you care
children can't vote
and they are one of the most vulnerable populations when it
comes to the health
impacts of fracking Denton already has a very poor air
quality my son has had
spontaneous nosebleed since the age of two because of it I
cannot keep track of
the number of children in my son's school with asthma and
other respiratory
issues not to mention the cases of childhood leukemia which
in some cases
can be caused by exposure to benzene a byproduct of fr
acking without a fracking
ban things will only get worse and will be answerable to
our children I urge you
to try to explain to a child why from one day to the next a
fracking site
might pop up in their backyard near their school or across
from their
favorite park no matter how objective you try to be in
presenting the facts to
them they will not like it children have an innate sense of
right and wrong and
you needn't be more than a few years old to see that our
current situation is
plain wrong at school children are warned about bullying
and I can tell you
that it takes them no time to identify the bullies in the
fracking issue the
bullies sorry the bullies have actually showed their full
potential in the last
few days garnering meaningless signatures handing out
misleading flyers
creating bogus grassroots websites going as far as accusing
Denton citizens of
being Russian agents if this wasn't brazen intimidation and
manipulation and
if it wasn't trying to sabotage yours of hard honest work
by citizens it would
almost be funny but it's not and I hope the city sees it
for what it is
shameless bullying by greedy outsiders if you don't pass
the ban tonight if you
let it go up for a vote in November their tactics will only
get nastier and
the vote will in no way reflect the genuine position of
Denton citizens I
hope you will find the courage in your heart to stand up
for Denton and to
stand up for our children what's the worst thing that could
happen the city
gets sued if it was a guaranteed win for the industry do
you think they would be
spending this much money campaigning against the ban they
are afraid because
they know Denton takes pride in being different and they
know we do not shy
away from trying new things and thinking big the nation's
eyes are on Denton
tonight and I hope that you will make us proud by doing
what is right for our
city thank you thank you next speaker will be number 69
Mike Sutton
I'm Mike Sutton 912 Cordell Wow I remember sitting up there
as well you
know three years ago I ran for council with y'all against
you and this was an
issue all right I ran against James King this was the issue
all right now we sit
we come here because of the petition in front of you I've
been known to hang out
with petitions as well I've failed on a number of them and
they've gone to
lawsuits I've lost on those as well this petition was based
on in the sense the
errors of the last ones this one's the one set up correctly
we got the required
signatures we got more than we needed for the signatures we
did it the way
petitions to petition your government is in the
Constitution of the United
States not the Soviet Union has we've been accused we're
Americans it's our
right to petition our government when we feel we're being
taken advantage of when
the government is not doing the right so we come to you as
a petitioner asking
you to do what is right it's simple we follow the rules our
friends come down
from other worlds they come from other cities they're here
for one reason only
the only one who benefits from this right now are people
who do not live and
didn't bottom line follow the money all the people who've
talked with their
expertise make money fracking I don't make any money fr
acking all right this
morning I read an article by Neville chamberlain I'm gonna
quote him here and
simply says we should seek by all means in our power to
avoid lawsuits nope to
avoid war by analyzing possible causes by trying to remove
them by discussion
in the spirit of a collaboration and goodwill if you
remember that Neville
Chamberlain was Prime Minister of England and he made that
discussion with
Adolf Hitler and look where that got I find this to be
similar to it and since
you're trying to get us to agree with them let them have
their way and we
everything should be fine so what happened right after that
Hitler invaded
Czechoslovakia and soon after that Poland it doesn't work
all right I've
been quote my other friend a guy I owe a favorite famous
Soviet Winston
Churchill and the Peser is one who feeds a crocodile hoping
that will eat him
last and I think that's where we're sitting right now I say
pass the band
thank you next speaker is number 70 Candice Brewer
again number 70 Candice Brewer all right we'll move on to
number 71 James Hyman
they're not here okay well I'll call their name 72 was
Virginia White 73 is
Kelsey Freiman
sorry short not that tall interesting fact about living
around pollution all
the time my name is Kelsey Freiman I live at 701 Fort Worth
Drive most of you on
council know me or know of me or have seen me in a grocery
store I was gonna
make a joke about outside funding and how I would love for
someone to pay for
my time after sitting in several planning and zoning
Commission meetings
which no citizen should ever have to do concerned about
their health care and
yet again but they're not that funny anymore after hearing
all of the horror
stories that have happened to people's children and just to
start off the bat
if you don't live in Denton if you live in Houston you
should be concerned about
Houston this is my home I get the say here and I don't care
what Tulsa does
well I do care what Tulsa does in the sense that I hope Tul
sa people don't
suffer what we've suffered and that is why we have
international eyes on us
that's why Australian journalists try and contact us people
from Europe who are
staring down the barrel of fracking and wondering what it's
gonna do to their
kids that's why they're contacting us because for so long
Texans have been
considered sacrifice zones we are the guinea pigs of the
industry we're
supposed to take whatever they shove at us and just accept
it lie down take the
nosebleeds take the headaches take the deaths that is what
we're supposed to do
and we decided we're not doing it anymore we are no longer
the guinea pigs
we are no longer a sacrifice zone and if you want to decide
that we're a
sacrifice zone that says something a lot about what you
value because I value
people I don't care about their profits I don't care if a
child dies if an adult
dies if anyone dies because their profits their profits are
not worth more
than a single human life no matter how many millions they
might have lives
count more water counts more air counts more than any of
their profits and I
shouldn't have to tell anyone that that shouldn't be a
contested discussion I
don't care how many profit holders have a say in this my
life matters I don't
need to tell anyone that that should be the highest that is
what we put people
on death row for is taking a life but you will let them
take ours and you will
say that it's fine because so long as they make money off
of it our deaths
don't matter our health care bills can go unpaid our
tuition can rack up as
we're trying to survive but that doesn't matter because
they make millions and
that is disgusting so pass this ban because we matter more
than their
profits thank you 74 David Sykes David Sykes 75 Linda
Marshall
all right 76 is Daniel is it Moran all right 77 is Katie Tr
ice
everyone Katie Trice 2319 Fowler Drive Denton Texas speaker
number 77 well thank
you mayor and council for your hours of listening to all of
the citizen comments
they've been all over the board and it's been really
informational for me to
listen to the 76 other members citizens that came before me
tonight thank you
also for your hours of diligent study and your efforts to
understand the
complexities of this very deep issue I know that you want
to protect our health
as citizens and I'm grateful for your leadership in our
city there is no
better city for this fight to be in than Denton Texas we as
citizens are proud of
the livability of this town our festivals our market our
parks and you
as leaders have been instrumental in shaping these
amenities for our citizens
the world is watching tonight this morning and honestly I
welcome the
tsunami of exclusion as one industry persons said earlier
and I wanted to
start here in Denton Texas I want us to be an example for
what what we believe
is right for our citizens the industry has been careless
with our health and
our time our land our air and our community resources they
have deceived us
in tonight we heard it the estimated benefits of drilling
in our community
and recently in the the deceptive method that they gathered
those petition
signatures I I ask you and I want to challenge you to stand
up for the
citizens of Denton and to stand up to the threats and
bullying of this
industry let Denton be a leader and an example to the world
of what's possible
when we stand up to protect the health and livability and
the future of this
town that we love so much thank you so much thank you
number 78 Michael Briggs take your name and address please
Michael Briggs 2311
Houston place Denton I'll be pretty quick I just wanted to
remind you all
that during this recent election and campaign series
Councilman Rodin hosted
an event at Dan Silverleaf where every one of the
candidates vowed to vote for
the ban and admitted that they supported it which includes
Councilman Johnson
Gregory Ryan and Mayor Watts you all said that you would
vote for this ban
and committed to do so so I just wanted to remind you of
that and I do believe
that Councilman Engelbrecht and Rodin and Hawkins I I
believe that you also think
that this is the right thing to do and so I wanted to
remind you of what you
said before and that I urge you to do that tonight and not
let it go to a
citywide referendum because as we've already seen the
industry is going to
spend a ton of money they have nearly limitless resources
and unleashed
disinformation and propaganda campaign which has already
started and
unfortunately propaganda works and so they are going to
misinform and convince
a lot of people that they should vote no on this and that's
unfortunately going
to happen if you don't vote for this tonight I know that
you all know that
this is the right thing to do and voting against it would
be disingenuous I feel
so I urge you to do the right thing tonight and pass the
ban thanks
Councilman Johnson has a question yes or comment so really
just to comment yes the
the the I'll quote myself actually just to be to be clear
what I said during the
campaign was that the citizens of Denton vote to pass the
ban then I would
support it you said that in the voting I'm not here to
debate with you I just
want to state exactly what I said okay because I do believe
that the citizens
deserve to say what they want okay but you also said in the
voting booth you
would vote yes okay just making that voting booth yeah
right for the record
you said yes not here tonight okay thank you all right
Councilmember Gregory no nevermind no we're good thank you
thank you very much
Angie holiday number 79 for Bryan Street Denton Texas 76201
I just want to thank
everyone who's here tonight mayor council members residents
of Denton and
our international community of support I think the people
before me have done an
incredible job of presenting the consequences of allowing
hydraulic
fracturing to occur in our city the astonishing health
consequences the
social impact environmental damages the lack of economic
benefit that we as
residents of Denton receive the ways in which this system
is fundamentally
broken we've all heard and we all recognize that this is an
immensely
complicated issue so complicated and important in fact that
we've been
misled by industry polls and petitions accused of having
hidden agendas and
foreign funding and labeled pro-environment which is a bad
thing
apparently environmental concerns are always pitted against
economic interests
in this debate but we cannot continue to have a flourishing
economy with a
depleted and over exploited environment we sat here tonight
as industry
representatives and out-of-town addresses told us that fr
acking has
absolutely no adverse effects on our community but the
dense citizens in
this building right now can tell you that this is not the
case we sat here
as state representatives told you how willing they are to
work with you when
we have all noticed and felt their absence during the past
decade of the
struggle I mean no disrespect but I heartily disagree with
the statement
that you and T students and others will not come to Denton
because of a ban on
fracking to the contrary students will choose not to come
to Denton because of
fracking near our campus I've spent the past year reaching
out to my community
at UNT to speak with and educate students about the issue
of fracking I
found that the majority of students I spoke with lived
under 1200 feet from a
gas well which is the minimum setback distance for the city
of Denton my
parents have voiced concerns on multiple occasions about my
health and safety
living in such close proximity to this industrial activity
and I can only
imagine that other parents share that same concern I'm only
here tonight
because I care about this town and the well-being of the
people who live in
this town and I think that the only true solution is this
ban thank you thank you
we're gonna have 88 or 80 is Kay Foster and after this we
'll go ahead take a
real quick break Kay Foster 624 West University Drive
number 376 Denton Texas
76 201 tonight we've heard a lot from the representatives
of the gas industry
talking about how there will be great economic benefit I
disagree I am in
support of the ban because something that hasn't been
thought of or considered
is the way that it will affect economics for instance and
the people who will not
stay in Denton such as myself and my partner I am a vocal
ist but I do not
sing in Denton anymore I've developed problems with
breathing my partner is a
very talented musician she has sung backup with brave combo
she has several
CDs of her own out and she does not sing in Denton Denton
lost a very good
vocalist and performer she taught at TWU for 16 years as a
vocal
instructor before there was fracking people thought of Dent
on as a place for
the arts and musicians well there's two now who aren't here
so it's a little bit
smaller to use a popular culture reference I don't know if
any of you
have watched it I watch it the dog whisperer with Cesar
Milan after he talks
about exercise discipline and affection in that order he
also talks about rules
boundaries and limitations I have a dog I love this dog
this dog is not allowed
in the house because this dog can't help it dog dog has dog
nature dog does dog
things it's a boy dog dog has to stay outside the house the
industry they can't
help it they just do things that the industry will do so we
need to set
boundaries because they can't follow the rules except for
when they make the
rules and they've kind of walked over our limitations so
this ban on fracking
is for us to say this is our boundary not in our city take
it somewhere else
thank you thank you it is 1227 let's take a 10 minute break
come back at 1237
thank you okay thank you very much we're going to reconvene
the public hearing
for agenda item 4d and we will go on to our next speaker
which is number 81
Kelly Barr
good evening or good morning yes I should say hi glad y'all
are persevering
I'm here because I'm committed to the idea that communities
have a lot of
sorry kill your name your name and address oh sorry Kelly
so let's all
remember I've just spent much time preparing for teaching
in the morning so
701 West Sycamore Street in Denton Texas thank you I'm here
because I'm committed
to the idea that communities have a right to ensure their
own health to this
year that secure their safety and quality of life and to
determine the
character of their own future I'm committed to the
democratic process as a
way to defend and exercise these rights as a doctoral
students in philosophy and
an educator I'd like to contribute my particular skills to
this hearing by
identifying the fallacies or errors in reasoning in a
letter from Barry
Smitherman chair of the Texas Railroad Commission to
councilmember Kevin Rodin
these fallacious arguments have repeat been repeated ad
nauseam by other recent
letters and flyers for floating around Denton and by pro fr
acking speakers here
tonight and in particular the speakers from the Denton
taxpayers for a strong
economy who according to the Denton record Chronicle paid
petition workers
from Colorado to trick Denton citizens into signing a pro
fracking petition
shame on you for making a mockery of the suffering of Dent
on citizens and of
community self-determination if the letter from Barry Smith
erton to Kevin
Rodin had been turned in as an essay in my introduction to
philosophy class it
would have failed for the litany of logical fallacies Smith
erman's claims
that banning fracking essentially means a ban on drilling
employs the fallacy of
division complaining that are claiming that what is true
for one part fracking
is true for the whole in general the whole drilling
industry without
presenting evidence that this is actually the case Smith
erman's claim
that fracking is a necessary component of the global energy
market employs the
red herring fallacy he presents a new subject intending to
mislead the reader
or listener away from the substance of the original
argument which is the
impacts of fracking in Denton and towards a more favorable
conclusion that
fracking is good he avoids directly addressing the
substance of the issue
which is the suffering of the citizens of Denton these two
fallacies serve the
purpose of trying to convince the reader that to that
refusing to frack and
Denton means dooming the global energy market an obvious
hyperbole perhaps
Smitherman's arguments would be more relevant and persu
asive if a ban on
mineral extraction in general was being considered for the
entire state of Texas
indeed I would be inclined to accept Smitherman's claims if
fracking and
Denton was the sole influence on the entire economy and
welfare of the state
of Texas and certainly I would be persuaded if it was the
sole influence
as he suggests on the energy strategies of the Ukraine and
Russia if that was
true perhaps you would have a valid point fortunately the
entire global
energy energy supply does not hinge on the supply of
natural gas from fracking
and Denton unfortunately fracking and Denton does have an
outsize influence on
the health and quality of life of Denton residents so
perhaps mr. Smitherman
simply thinks that we are gullible or worse that you all
are gullible but you
all are intelligent people with a strong sense of civic
duty and I respect your
taking a position of leadership in the city these are tough
decisions I don't
envy your position on the other side of that desk and I don
't envy the tasks that
are required of you but as a citizen of Denton I place my
trust in you as my
representatives to call a spade a spade thank you council
member Gregory has a
question for you I've gotten a lot of emails from folks
that are against the
band and they've made a lot of statements so so I just want
to clarify
things are you now or ever or have you ever have been a
Russian agent if I was
my life would be a whole lot more exciting so I take that
as a no no I have
not ever been okay should I throw that question back to you
well in that case I'll just make an insinuation thank you
thank you the next
speaker is number 82 Janelle birch
my name is Janelle birch 4478 Country Club Road in Denton
even though I have a
Denton mailing address we live out of the city limits but
anything that the
council does affects us as well we are in the ETJ subject
to possible annexation
in January my I'm speaking also for my husband Richard we
both oppose the
fracking ban we are fourth generation property owners and
mineral interest
owners you guys have a really tough decision ahead of you
and I've been
listening to these people since 630 and at other meetings
and and all of these
smells and health problems and noise we have wells on our
property gas wells
the noise we didn't hardly even know it was there because
the sound barriers
regulation was followed one of the problems possibly is the
operators not
following the regulations and maybe the band needs to be on
certain operators
because there are good operators and good companies that
are willing to to
follow the regulations anyway like I said we oppose the ban
and I kind of
want to address the diesel generator and if there is a
problem with one diesel
generator too close within 200 feet do you ban all diesel
generators thank you
thank you the next speaker will be number 83 Jonathan van
hello my name is
Jonathan van I live at 1803 Wayne Street here in Denton
Texas I'd like to thank
the council members and the mayor and the residents here in
Denton and our
humble guests that have traveled a long way to be here with
us today I was gonna
originally get up here and talk about all the environmental
and health reasons
and all the reasons that we've seen people come up here and
say over the
past several hours but instead I'd like to talk about what
I have seen here
today while we've been doing this glorious demonstration of
democracy and
all its long drawn-out glory we've seen the passion of the
people here in Denton
and it's really it's really beautiful to see these people
have worked so hard and
they've endured so much and I just want y'all to think
about what we want Denton
to be known as growing up I went to middle school and high
school here and I
couldn't wait to leave I could not wait to get out of this
town I thought it was
a black hole I thought it was this little stinking small
place that I didn't
want to be any part of but then I came back and it had
gotten better and then I
went away again and then I came back and it had gotten even
better and now every
day the Sun rises this place gets better and I think we're
steaming towards
greatness and I think this fracking ban is really something
that is a part of the
soul of Denton here and I'd like to thank you all for your
time thank you
very much thank you next speaker will be number 84
Christopher
Furman hi thank you all for staying up late I'm here to ask
you to support the
ban I live at 2924 Longfellow Lane here in Denton unlike
about 75% of the people
who've spoken against the band tonight I live in didn't and
I'm here because I I
love this town and no one's paying me to be here I'm
independent in every sense
of the word I'm not a part of any party or team I see this
most of all as a case
where you guys need to stand up for local governments in a
big way and I you
know following this over the past few days I have just been
floored by the
amount of outside interference from out of state with big
money and especially
the threats we've heard tonight against our town and I hope
that that you guys
can make a strong decision tonight and send a message that
that will not work
here we're an unusual place in a lot of ways and that's a
good thing and we can
buck a few trends here tonight and you can send a strong
message that that
will have a have a good effect is the right thing to do in
this case because
we've seen a lot of economic data tonight that we don't fr
acking itself
does not benefit this place very much at all but what our
wealth is here is our
people and if you we're going we have to make the right
choices to make sure
Denton continues to be a pleasant place to live and the air
quality here is
getting bad I suffer from chronic asthma after living here
for nine years which
I never experienced before and when I leave North Texas it
clears up I mean I
know there's a lot of anecdotal and information but I just
want to stress
again that you guys have the power and the freedom tonight
to make a strong
stand for local governance and I really hope that you will
do that thank you
very much thank you I'm gonna call 85 Tiffany Burnham but I
believe that I
think her card was so just want to make sure I call these
that we we think have
have laughter number 86 Robert Oh slobber I'm sure okay
thank you
name though I brought y'all some Odessa tap water I'm a
didn't I'm an Odessa
high Bronco a lot of y'all are Denton high Broncos hello
Broncos if any of you
are like to have some delicious tap water from where they
've been fracking
for about 50 or 60 years I have some for you I'll be going
back to my high school
reunion I'll bring you back more really name and address
please thank you oh my
name is Robert Oh slugger I'm at 321 Panhandle Street in
Denton 76201 I'm
really proud of Denton this is my adopted home and y'all
are on the
cutting edge of public policy worldwide the wives of the
world really are on you
and I don't think that was an intended consequence of the
actions that y'all
have embarked on might be unintended but it's still a good
one you know rights
aren't limited to property rights and I think that really
scares the proponents
of fracking they are really scared there was a comment
earlier that more people
in Denton voted for a ban on fracking than voted for any
one of the individual
council members it took me a while to stop laughing I wish
more people would
show up and vote I wish that wasn't true but it was it's
true maybe we would get
a lot of pressure from outside come in if we had a public
referendum on fracking
in Denton don't know that it's not a bad idea the reality
we have to face and I
know this firsthand because I grew up in the oil patch oil
and gas is not clean
and operators don't have a default setting that is
responsible it's the
opposite of that they will do what they can get away with
it's about money
royalties it's about money easy money don't have to work
very hard for it just
get a check your quality of life in this town is not that
they're concerned when
most of the royalty owners don't live in Denton it won't
ever be money is their
concern exploiting oil and gas does not happen 200 feet
outside their back doors
it will never happen 200 feet outside their back doors it
just isn't gonna
happen there are unpleasant side effects side effects to
drilling and fracking
where I grew up sometimes there was an oil well already
there when they put the
street in you had to drive around it that's just the way it
was out there
still is I could probably take you right to it without even
thinking about it but
there are dangerous consequences to hydraulic fracking and
you guys get to
help make a decision if you don't ban fracking maybe you
need to give the city
of Denton residents a chance to vote on it if we're gonna
let them not if we're
gonna watch other folks not frack in their backyard why are
we gonna let them
do it in ours if you don't take a strong stance and oppose
fracking give the
citizens a chance to say yes or no themselves and thank you
for your time
thank you next speaker will be number 87 Martina Salins Sal
inas sorry thank you
name and address please Martina Salinas 4137 Allen Avenue
Fort Worth Texas and
in the interest of full disclosure I am neither an industry
insider or nor I am
a career politician but I am the Green Party candidate for
Texas Rural
Commissioner so Texas has a long and proud tradition in
natural gas and oil
drilling but we need to stop trading our children's futures
for short-term
financial gains yes the recent boom has helped revitalize
many depressed local
economies but at what cost this city and the state's most
important resources are
its people in order for its people to survive and prosper
two very important
resources need to be protected this city's land and its
water I applaud the
city of Denton for fulfilling its process its
responsibility to its
residents and endorsing their concerns by proposing a ban
on fracking within
city limits I for one am also gas at this docity of a state
public official
trying to scold a city through a four-page letter it is
especially
appalling since that state agency has failed its original
mission of
protecting Texas citizens against big industry whether this
banners passed or
not I would urge council to consider a few new requirements
as part of the
drilling permitting process and please excuse my ignorance
if any of these
issues have been discussed in previous meetings I recommend
that oil and gas
companies hold town hall meetings for affected citizens so
all prevalent and
revelant information can be distributed such as a contact
list of all relevant
personnel and agencies another requirement to consider is
baseline
testing of air and water before permitting this would act
as a record
of pre-existing conditions and could protect our parties
our parties one last
matter to consider is assessing a fee or using current
revenues for the creation
of a drilling permit office to receive the various sites
under construction
and existing to ensure compliance to local ordinances and
to refer state
level violations I urge council not to be influenced by the
false premise that
the nation's energy future fall on the shoulders of Denton
the future of the
energy the future of energy should lay with solar and wind
power many jobs can
be in solar and wind power that is where our state's future
should be for the
past for the past eight eight years I have worked in the
construction industry
and I have seen bad companies and responsible companies and
even the good
companies have have accidents or make mistakes so keeping
the future of our
families in mind as a citizen of Texas we need to hold off
fracking operations
especially wastewater disposal to a high standard even if
it means stopping
operations we are but the current stewards of our state's
resources we
only hold them in trust for future generations we need to
be responsible
stewards by practicing sustainable development in order to
ensure that our
children's children and beyond can and will see and enjoy
the beauty that is
Texas thank you for your time thank you the next speaker
will be number 88
Alfred Sanchez good evening my name is Alfred Sanchez I
live at 7-eleven
Jackson I'm a retired biologist with the US Forest Service
I worked on a lot of
environmental assessments when I was working for the Forest
Service and a lot
of them had to do with drilling oil wells one of the things
that we seem to
always have problems with with the oil companies was
compliance and that seems
to have been an issue with many of the local people here
compliance so what I
see is they they don't change their colors it seems like
they try to get
away they did it with us when we were when I worked for the
Forest Service and
they also do it seems to they seem to want to do it here in
Denton so we have
heard throughout the night we've heard a lot of
contradictory information some
people say you know if Denton allows the a ban we're gonna
lose lots of money
others say no it's a very small amount it's up to you all
to look at the facts
and find out what's really happened what what's going to
really happen we've had
people come from outside of the outside of town outside of
the city and out of
the oil and gas industry and and and talk about how
important it is but we
also have had people from this from Denton of citizens who
are impacted
every day by what fracking does and these are the people
that we should be
concerned about when you talk about fracking or what we did
when when I was
working for the US Forest Service it's a different
situation when you're out in
the country we had people talk about well out here and we
we had pristine
areas we had oil wells and 30 years later 40 years later
you know we still
have pristine areas it's not the same when you're putting
wells in a city and
I think from what I understand there's like 330 wells here
in town is that
correct does anybody know that's what I was told that's a
lot of wells I think
for an area this small and as far as the I think Jim
mentioned something that I
thought was interesting that we're at the edge of the Barn
ett shell and we're
not that big of an area for us to say for people to say
well it's gonna have a
if we if we ban fracking fracking here in Denton that it's
gonna affect the
whole Barnett shell it's not we're a small community when
you really look at
it compared to the whole Barnett shell and I think we need
to protect our
citizens I live here in Denton and my children were raised
here I have
grandchildren being raised here and therefore I want to
live here till till
I pass away and I think it's up to you all to look at this
and say you know
what our citizens are more important than than these oil
companies thank you
thank you the next speaker will be 89 Barbara Owens
promise you I will not be very long it's like one o'clock
but anyway I want to
say that I'm here because I name an address oh and sorry
sir
Barbara Owens 2931 Lipitzen Court Denton Texas 76210 thank
you yes sir
anyway I'm here because you know I tell my kids you know
speak up kids my
biological kids and then my kids that I teach and then my
daughter was saying
well mom you know about this issue I said yes I know but
they're gonna be
there all night and then they're looking at me like mom do
your thing you know do
speak up do what you tell us to do so I'm here at one o'
clock in the morning
this is my thing I should be a city planner and still do
that every now and then and I
was reminded of years ago when I was in my 30s I'm in my 40
s I won't say anything
else but anyway years ago I had a real intense issue in
East Texas and everyone
thought it was gonna bring in a lot of money and it didn't
and then years ago I
was in Oklahoma City worked as a planner there and we had
this big thing called
haswap where was a big moneymaker and it came and it went
and then I found myself
you know working with the state the State Department the
Commerce State
Cecil Carter was the director then and my job was to pretty
much tell
contractors you've got to follow the rules and so here I am
now in the
classroom you know doing more more teaching and then again
I'm a special
ed teacher and there's a book that that we call the Bible
of special ed and it's
called exceptional children special ed and what it talks
about is what what
happens with some kids are have have different disabilities
because of and
you hello your wife's a teacher so she you know she's a
special teacher mr.
Campbell then she'll know about this but some of it is
environmental issues and
that's a component that allowed me to really reconsider
what we do as a
people you know how it impacts her children and as we all
know you know
children is there are that's what's important really that's
the bottom line
and so anyway I'm here to say you know I thank you for
being you know public
servants because that is a task and so I commend you for
that because I've you
know in teaching and then in planning you get to see the
real deal and so you
guys you know you're you're not getting you're not being
here for this for doing
this you're here because you have a heart for the city of
Denton and so I
thank you I thank you for listening to me and have a
blessed day thank you thank
you very much yes sir next week will be number 90
Corey Gabriele sin thank you Corey Gabriel sin 529 North
ridge Street Denton
Texas thank you all for what you do it's a hard job I have
34 years with the
United States Coast Guard and hazardous materials and
environmental response and
so I wanted to offer just a few comments and some of things
I heard from industry
tonight federal regulations EPA DOT OSHA they exist because
industry did a bad
job of self-regulation self-regulation so bad that in the
ocean
enforcement area people often say that the codes are
written in blood that
somebody has to die hundred people die before they actually
can make a change
and it takes years to get the changes in so the codes that
are there are often
old could be antiquated and are not industry standards they
don't they're
they're there but they're the minimum standard but they're
there because
industry is not doing it so somebody has to EPA's
regulations are used a lot of
times after there's a chemical release you don't you know
we say oh can EPA
help us regulate these wells and things well no we don't
know what the gases are
that are coming off them we don't know what the mystery
chemicals are that
they're injecting into the ground they haven't given us
those baselines so an
EPA response would be after the fact after it's released
afterwards you're
going in afterwards but and as a City Council and as have
an emergency
planning committee those things you need to know these
things ahead of time and
ask about that information what are they and they have to
disclose it there is no
prior priority exemption for the chemicals that they have
no more than
the corn kits here downtown and they have just as many
hazards chemicals they
use in processing so the information is available if you
request it in writing
that comes out of these record regulations self-regulation
allowed
incidents to happen like Times Beach Missouri and Love
Canal New York I'm
sure you all remember that that was self-regulation of the
chemical industry
so take it all in stride you have a lot to look at to make
your decisions here I
think if they were filled with the mystery chemicals were
that are in these
containers that are on site that they say are proprietary I
think that would
relieve a lot of fears to people and it would also relieve
fears of people in
emergency management and planning areas
fracking they said it currently meets the minimum industry
the industry
standards which are minimum standards but not one industry
spokesman cited one
company who exceeds the minimum standards or excels in
protecting their
sites or excels in protecting the community so where are
these other
companies who excel who's doing a good job everybody said
well there's bad
companies out there but nobody said hey we're the good guys
I'd like to find
those another thing and just to consider as you go through
your deliberations
self-regulation and following industry standards inadequate
local codes and an
uninformed local government led to the crisis that we had
in West Texas so
please do your diligence for us thank you thank you
speaker number 91 Hal Rose
speaker number one number 91 Hal Rose
speaker number 92 Elizabeth Ferguson Elizabeth Ferguson
speaker number 93
Soneka Dickerson and she had to leave okay so I'm Kim feel
I'm speaker 94 I'm
from Arlington I live it I'm a mineral owner at 409 Elm
Street and I live on
the cusp of the entertainment district by Six Flags and the
Rangers Stadium and
the ATT Stadium the Cowboys Stadium where in our air shed
we were invaded on
January 30th and 31st of 2013 when Chesapeake was drilling
out the plugs
that they said was a normal operation the odor came into my
home I had a
closed home that day and it made my eyes burn and now I'm
having vision problems
my mother-in-law was with me at the time this odor invaded
us and she got sick
that night and had a cold for weeks I interviewed employees
near the stadium
and got their health effects testimony on video and put it
on my Barnett shell
hail blog open records revealed that five fire trucks one
ambulance one TCEQ
rep was dispatched to our entertainment district yet the
media did not cover
the story nor were there any nuisance violations by the
state or local
governments found although those odors were reported all
the way to I-30 these
normal operations and accidental accidents are not
compatible with
residential and business districts this is why a ban is a
reasonable homeroom
move for council to make and maybe my town my sweet city of
Arlington will
follow your lead on my resume I call myself a volunteer gas
drilling ordinance
loophole finder in retrospect any cities looking to
encourage operators to not
invade their towns should mandate best available control
technologies but
sadly most born-at-shell cities gas well ordinances were
written that the
operators only have to have reasonable mandates which is
the same thing as
saying the cheapest way possible it was privileged that
they took advantage of
us when we allow them into our towns so now the only thing
that's left is a
damage control ban so what are examples of best available
control technologies
that should be in all ordinances well baseline testing of
the air water soil
blood and urine electric vehicles the electric trucks and
electric drilling
rigs yes I'm in a dream state electrical hybrid compressor
lift compressors that
are electric and the engines that caterpillar cells that
they revert back
to diesel just when the fracking rigs are on idle we need
vapor recovery
controls on the storage tanks we need flow back tanks that
are closed that's a
loophole and most Arlington most are ordinances there you
can't be flowing
back into 18 inch open hatch tanks I still do not know what
technologies
exist to contain the fine flat silica sand because they use
these pillowcase
looking things that don't do the job and when they drill
the plugs out of the
wells I don't know so I'm not I don't have all the answers
but I'm just a
humble housewife my husband had cancer my teen has endocr
ine disruption I've
had the rashes and the arthritis and I I'm only beginning
with the health
effects and the deaths in my neighborhood since this drill
site came
in so please take the lead so Arlington will follow because
when they send that
gas overseas they'll be back to finish what they started
thank you thank you
speaker number 95 John Ziegler speaker number 95 John Zieg
ler speaker number
96 Christina kitchens okay all right I've showed that the
number 97 Rick Hoover
was gone but I still want to call his name 97 98 Mark McC
ord good morning mr.
mayor and council members my name is Mark McCord 616 South
Colorado Street
in Solana I'm not a citizen of Denton I'm a native Dallas
ite I was I'm the
director of frack Dallas and was one of the leaders in
fighting against fracking
in Dallas and we heard the same arguments that you heard
from industry
that they're gonna sue us and that they're gonna clobber us
our economy is
gonna suffer we're gonna regret not letting drilling come
into Dallas with
our very conservative City Council we still managed using
facts and science to
defeat the oil and gas industry we kicked Exxon Mobil out
of town and they
didn't sue us they left we kicked Trinity East out of
Dallas Trinity East has
filed a 30 million dollar lawsuit that on its face is a
fraud that they're
gonna lose if it even goes to court I suspect a judge is
gonna throw it out
what you need to remember is like Dallas you're a home-rul
ed city and what that
means is a home-ruled city is that you not only have the
authority but the
obligation to protect your citizens health safety quality
of life property
values and environment over corporate profits of out-of-
town and out-of-state
corporations that's important for you to remember you're
here to defend and to
represent the citizens of Denton Texas I'd like to point
out some things that
have recently come about that I think are astounding in the
last three days
Saturday Sunday and Monday Oklahoma had nine earthquakes
including a 4.3 and a
4.2 and the USGS just issued a report saying that Oklahoma
has overtaken
California as the most earthquake prone state for quakes
register in a magnitude
3.0 or higher Oklahoma overtook California and Oklahoma
never had an
earthquake until fracking came about industry will tell you
that fracking
doesn't cause earthquakes that it may be related to to
wastewater deep injection
well you wouldn't be injecting wastewater into the ground
if you
weren't fracking and creating wastewater to begin with they
try to separate these
two things but they're not separable they are one and same
they're part and
parcel of the same thing so what I want you to keep in mind
is the industry will
tell you all kinds of things that as you heard tonight I
can attest in five years
plus of working on this issue the people in Austin are our
elected officials down
there the Railroad Commission and Texas Commission on
Environmental Quality do
not represent the citizens of Texas never ever have they
taken the side of
citizens Railroad Commission is a rubber stamp for the oil
and gas industry and
if anybody thinks they're anything else and that person is
either a fool or just
completely ignorant of the facts I want you to keep that in
mind that your
citizens rely on you to protect them and I hope you'll do
the right thing and
vote to approve this ban thank you thank you I show that
number 99 speaker is not
here I'm gonna say Nathaniel Thames is nothing I don't see
okay speaker 100
Scott McDonald good morning council my name is Scott
McDonald I live at 1200
Amherst Drive here in Denton Texas before I actually make
my comments I'd
like to say this I have great appreciation for the general
decorum of
all of the people in the main meeting room most people have
been very
respectful in the audience and so forth I appreciate that
however in the
overflow rooms the two that I was in it was a different
story there was a lot of
condes condon condescension not a lot of respect for people
with whom we disagree
and I feel that when we do that no matter what side of the
issue you're on
it degrades the person who does it and I would encourage
all of us to choose the
high road no matter where we land on this issue moving on
then I'd like to
say this I'm a real estate broker and I've helped people
sell properties where
they owned mineral rights if I were to say since I'm card
number 100 I think we
need to stop with me and anybody after me doesn't get a the
right to speak here
at the council there would probably be a hue and cry go up
that is because we
respect the rights of people the fact is mineral rights
underground rights
whatever you want to call them those are one of the
foundations of this great
experiment called America and when we take those things
away we are taking
away the very thing one of the main things that made us a
great engine for
freedom and opportunity that has spread throughout the
world and so even though
there are serious issues I urge us not to discount this key
fundamental a
building block of our nation and that has impacted all over
the world beyond
that I'd like to say that it's a mistake to ban fracking it
's a mistake even for
those who would say no we want to ban fracking no you don't
want to ban it you
want to be able to control it the second thing I would say
is I'm not sure what
the status is whether there's a moratorium or what it is at
the moment
but I would say establish or continue a moratorium on it
until such time as you
have done what my mom always said she said when you find
yourself in a mess
you need to go back and figure out why how did I get where
I am today and
analyze it and say okay I'm gonna claim my baggage and
whatever it takes we're
gonna set up the necessary things to fix the problem before
it continues or
begins again or whatever this is America and we can do this
we have sent people
to the moon we have done all kinds of things we can conquer
this if we look to
the places where the best practices are and follow them we
can meet the needs of
everybody in this room without bulging veins and ad hominem
attacks and I urge
the council to consider if you're not if you are going to
ban fracking then put
out there for the the people to vote and also tell them
this is what it's going
to cost to do just compensation so that those rights are
not trampled upon and
let them know this is how your taxes are going to change
and then let them decide
so there are two alternatives thank you all right thank you
speaker 101 Sammy
Brian
good morning my name is Sammy Brian 2002 Shawnee Street
here in Denton Texas I was
actually born here in Denton in 1954 and I've got multiple
cousins and family
members still here in the North Texas area and our family
goes back in history
far enough here we built the original North Texas downtown
Dallas there's a
log cabin still down there built by my sixth great uncle in
1810 so please do
not ban the drilling it is multiple things it's going to do
to hurt the
economy the way things are going to go for us here one good
example I can give
you because I have royalties right now and then the
footprint for the oil wells
the gas wells are in the normally in the area of about 350
acres I have 22 acres
in there and what I pay in for the school taxes off of my
mineral rights
yearly is between 2,500 and three thousand dollars every
year you take in
effect say with that many acres how much are you going to
be taking out of the
taxes just for that one little small spot that I'm talking
about that we have
wells here in Denton County and I have been told by the
Texas royalty group
that if this does go down that I will be losing my mineral
rights as well maybe
this shut down to where it the ban is going to be going on
for it all so that's
going to cut it down for everybody that has mineral rights
here in Denton County
and it's going to really push the price up for the amount
of oil you're going to
or the gas you're going to have to have to run your house
on for your heater
it's going to be bringing more of it in from foreign
countries and it's going to be being produced here and if
it does start here
it's going to continue to grow throughout more parts of the
state of
Texas it's even going to cut it back more and more every
month but it's going
to cut and it's also going to take hundreds of jobs out
very quickly but
for an example another thing it's going to do to me if it
does go down because
I did lose my job last year and I've not been able to find
another one yet I lose
my mineral rights I go bankrupt so there's a lot of things
that can be done
to protect all of us so let's please please do not ban the
drilling and the
continuing on of the gases here in the state in the North
Texas area so thank
you again you all have a very good morning and God bless
you all we have a
question from Councilmember Gregory or a comment thank you
mayor it is a question
I have a question for you sir tell me again what you
understand the
communication was from the royalty Association okay they
basically right
here they put in here a drilling ban would also a navigate
impact on the
local economy loss of jobs and would likely cause local
government essentials
City County State schools and other increased taxes or tuit
ions on cases for
the UNT students to cut back service if mineral income on
their public land is
reduced and are stopped but I thought I heard you say that
you were told that
your royalties would stop coming to you if we passed a ban
does it say that in
this yes it says that yes it does I would really appreciate
getting a copy
of that because a ban on a well that's already been franked
and I have checked
into it too and it is also happening some of the places up
there in Colorado
and things that it had done that too I would appreciate if
we could get a copy
of that letter I don't want you to get the original but but
but if we might do
that when we have our next break okay she can copy it over
here yeah all right
thank you we'll go on to our next speaker 102
barb rodman barb Rodman we'll go to 103 Francine Vivas 103
104 John Holden
okay mr. mayor members of the council my name is John Hold
en I live at 7 Turtle
Creek Bend in Dallas Texas the reason I kind of hung around
and I appreciate you
all staying awake to and suffering through all what you did
before and
suffering through this meeting is I did want to share a
couple of comments about
in responses to points that have been made in the interest
of full disclosure
I'm a board-certified oil and gas attorney I represent both
oil companies
and I represent mineral owners and so therefore I've
confronted some of the
very issues that you all have been hearing about tonight
basically we have
and I have sued oil companies that haven't lived up to
their leases I've
sued oil companies when we didn't have a lease I've
represented surface
developers that were trying to stop an oil company or cause
an oil company to
have their mineral development be in a certain manner in a
certain place so it
seems to me it's kind of the same issues we've been talking
about in terms of the
question that you posed to most of the people I think why
most people wouldn't
care whether a piece of equipment was next to them as if it
's properly baffled
for instance there is a I dealt with the financing for a
project in the middle of
Los Angeles and if you went by that building it's a
triangular building and
inside that building and it's oil by the way we're talking
about gas here but in
this particular case it was oil you would not realize the
fact that there
were 32 wells inside that building so not only was the
noise not a problem for
the area but also there was no odor and it's again it's oil
so they they've
solved those problems in that area second in Los Angeles in
the same
general area like a you've heard the use of the the tennis
ball throw from this
particular structure is a hospital so they have in the city
in California they
have permitted the drilling of wells right next to a
hospital why is that
because they were properly baffled so that there wasn't
noise and the and the
odor was taken care of so I don't see why a ban is
necessary but why it isn't
a regulatory process that would solve the problem here
another question that
you I think that there's a little bit misunderstanding
about the setback
significance that while wells and I and again Bill can talk
more about the
economics of it but if it is true that wells generally go
out let's say a half
a mile you know I'm sorry a mile 4,000 feet if they can go
out two miles but
then not only is it the well more expensive it'll break
down sooner the
the management the running that well will have be much more
expensive to
drill and it'll be much more expensive to run and the
equipment will run out
but what the real issue is is the setback from the
neighboring property
owners because if you don't if you require a huge setback
then there are
fewer and fewer drill sites so less and less of the land
can be reached so as
was said then it's going to take more wells to develop the
minerals under the
land rather than fewer wells what you really want is a
smaller footprint
smaller impact on the surface and let the wells go out a
long distance I
appreciate your time I just wanted to add those as some
thoughts thank you
thank you we next speaker is 105 angel brah bravo my name
is a Bravo I live in
2269 West Oak Denton Texas I'm a father of four-year in
Tony and Chicano and a
UNT student I'm a radical in very environmentalist but it's
not because
Russia or something but instead because of the you can
blame actually the
predatory corporations so we keep hearing about outside
funding of the oil
and gas and yet there is a local and national problem in
the student debt
friend of mine is reaching 40 to 50 thousand dollars after
graduation so
clearly this is outside founding so-called is lacking
behind clearly the
royalties from the oil and gas folks to the UNT are lacking
behind last year the
library at UNT was threatened to pay back an amount of
money around 1.7
million dollars which threatened to reduce the book
collection access to
online resources and reduction of the staff it was the
participation actually
of a student and a student's organization that mobilize in
the form of
a grassroots movement just like what we are doing here to
stop fracking that
actually run a petition and caught the attention of the
media and that has
stopped the cuts from UNT at least now so a gentleman
number I guess between 13 I
think is the head of the royalty owner Association he
stated that the UNI the
states allowed to have minor mineral rights like is the
only country that does
that to be the only country in something doesn't not mean
that this is
immediately something good so let me put you an example the
United States is the
only country in the best of my knowledge without payment
turn to leave so clearly
this is not a good thing so this is tell you about quality
and justice for women
in our country so which lead me to the actual back to our
point fracking
fracking and women there is a cluster of young women that
have developed cancer
in Flower Mound have any of these folks of gas and oil
industry lobbyists talked
about this about the negative impact of fracking or just
about profit after
hearing all the facts science suggestions data and lies
about the
economy benefits to frack of fracking at 200 feet from kids
bedrooms I want to
make an exercise with you counsel and this exercise I want
to do because I
care about you which I am not sure anymore because during
the last years
you have failed to protect the citizens that you represent
the citizens of
Denton us allowing weak ordinance that do not challenge the
hegemony power of
oil and gas corporation but instead they continue of their
business without any
consideration to people's health so let's assume I still
care about you so
let's start this exercise can I just keep going a few
minutes no not a few if
you could wrap it up okay I'm gonna wrap it up the choices
are you want to be
right now in this historical moment to be remember as the
constant that stood
up for the health of their citizens instead and protect us
instead of
defending the rights of great corporation that does not
care about the
health of anybody else I will not accept that the counter
argument that
corporations are people with rights until Texas executes
one thank you thank
you thank you very much 106 shows to be gone Jimmy Robinson
but I wanted to call
his name just in case Jimmy Robinson all right 107 is
Rebecca Williams hi my name
is Rebecca Williams 72 19 Peden Road Azalea Texas 76020 and
I'm not a
resident of this town but I'm here tonight because of our
horrible Russian
activists saving us from the earthquakes in my town and we
had 300
earthquakes of them I felt about 34 because I was working
from home I have a
brand new house on the lake used to be waterfront property
but what they brought
their hoses in and set the water directly out of the lake
to frack we have
no water because that and the drought and we actually seen
them doing this
we've got pictures of them doing this I've been a nurse for
20 years and I
review about 30 charts a day I have worked everything from
family practice
to ICU the things that I am seeing come in now are horrend
ous my husband and
myself are both sick we're both being tested currently we
've done air tests
on the back of our house and and we're looking to y'all to
make a decision for
this town because it's gonna affect us and it's gonna
affect us in a big way
and when I hear regulation I just want to laugh I was I can
think of is
dictation and deregulation they don't have to abide by the
same rules the safe
drinking water act the the air quality these are all carcin
ogens they're
allowed to be in the air in certain levels whether or not
their curse
carcinogens or not they're allowed to be there I had TCEQ
come to my house and
the VOC is only tested 2.2 at the top of my driveway which
sits about 12 feet
above my house well if anybody knows anything about benzene
it's heavier
weighted and it drops to the bottom my house is in the
valley I suffered
respiratory infections six and five months pneumonia three
times I'm
currently covered in the rash as Miss Parr was and my bird
is seizing my two
dogs are broke out in rashes my neighbors died of lung
cancer the
neighbors that moved in after them have already gotten
blood clots and nose
bleeds we have two people down the street with rare blood
disorders that
I've never heard of in my 20-year nursing career we've had
nosebleeds
headaches my husband's suffered neurological effects of
this we have a
compression station 750 feet behind our house I was told by
the state
representative for the oil and gas company at the
earthquake meeting that
they had equipment on these that they could monitor them
when they broke well
when not the compression station broke guess what nobody
knew for hours and so
I come home from the earthquake meeting I'm the one that
calls TCEQ makes the
report they call the Railroad Commission oh no no no we don
't have a problem
there's not a break I said I've lived there for years I
know the sound that
compression station there's a break go check it I'm here
with every reporter in
Tarrant County and finally I get a call back in five
minutes saying ma'am you're
so right we had a valve break and then the backup broke and
we didn't realize
that we got somebody on to fix it right away the TCEQ
report said that they
fixed it 45 minutes that the gas only spewed for 45 minutes
they worked on it
all night to get it fixed our whole neighborhood was in a
fog don't let it
happen to your neighborhood be the example for us thank you
thank you 108
Riley Briggs hello my name is Riley Briggs and I live 3108
Broken Bow Denton
Texas and I am 11 years old and I have lived in Denton all
my life and I am
proud of that and it is quite past my bedtime and that is
because mine too and
that is because I would like to stand up against fracking I
think that because
putting chemicals into the ground causing people with
headaches asthma
attacks spontaneous nose bleeds this is not good this is
very bad indeed and
putting all these oil thing all these fracking sites by
parks over McKinney a
park what I used to go there a lot when I was a kid but we
don't anymore because
there's that big fracking rig over there and it's very bad
it's all smelling now
and all these people that have to witness this it shouldn't
be and there
are plenty of alternative sources like such as wind
turbines hydraulic or
hydro stuff and um yeah lots of others and people just don
't do this and it's
this one thing money that's what drives everyone for this
it's easy way to get
money by these fracking companies and I think that shouldn
't be I think we should
stand up against this and I plead you to please ban fr
acking save our city save
our state save our country help save the world thank you
Riley Riley we've got a question from councilmember Rodin
her comment Riley I
don't know if you remember this but I think I first met you
and your family
picking up cigarette butts off the courthouse lawn about
three or four years
ago and so you've been you've been serving your city for a
long time so I
appreciate that and appreciate you coming up here today
what school do you
go to but I am starting my year at Strickland coming up
wonderful well God
bless Denton ISD for producing well-spoken well thought out
reasoned
kids like yourself and let me tell you you've done better
than most of us
adults here today telling us your thoughts so I appreciate
that I'll do my
best thank you thank you councilmember Hawkins thank you
mayor I too Riley I
just wanted to thank you for staying up and speaking to us
that was awesome I
hope that my five-year-old son is as well spoken as you
when he's 11 so
thanks a lot thank you yeah thank you Riley all right
speaker 109 is James
fellows James fellows speaker 110 Cassandra fellows all
right well that it
reaches the end of the people that we have registered all
right and this being
a public hearing then we give anyone who was not signed up
an opportunity to come
down and speak who would like to do so so if you'd like to
come down and speak
now please come down and give us your name and address and
you have three
minutes
hey I'm Michael laser I live at 2106 Preston place I know a
couple of you
ever at least met you a few times so I've heard a lot
tonight about property
rights and how important it is to respect the foundation of
our civilization
which is apparently owning buying and selling things but I
think that it's
probably impossible to own buy or sell anything if you're
dead and frankly
anything that might in fact affect the health of us is is
kind of your
responsibility to take care of now we have to care for
cells but I don't have
the power to stop somebody from releasing benzene into the
air down the
street for me like that's I call the police or I call the
authorities to do
that if if we take that upon ourselves then that's anarchy
it's chaos and it's
not a good way to live it basically devolves into warlords
and feudalism
none of us want that so what I guess what I'm asking for is
our state
government has completely failed us on this our federal
government's really not
doing much of anything right now much less I wouldn't even
call them failures
they're just dead in the water our county government doesn
't really have
the power to do anything about this it's down to you guys I
really hope that you
can help us out I've seen what happens when somebody slowly
dies of leukemia
it's not pretty I've seen other types of cancer I saw my
aunt when I was a child
I of pancreatic cancer my grandmother died of leukemia
because when she was
first came to this country from Cuba she was became a nurse
she was and she was a
very good nurse she was so good at being a nurse that she
actually just from the
English she was able to teach herself and her nursing
skills was able to get a job
and she worked at a hospital and they had her in the rooms
doing x-rays like
constantly unprotected in these x-ray rooms and every
single person on her
floor that was where they did the x-rays all of the nurses
all died of various
forms of cancer she's actually the last one to go you know
it's it's not pretty
and at the time they thought was totally safe and I'm sure
the x-ray industry
told those nurses that everything was we totally fine there
's there's no safety
problems x-rays are the great magical new technology that's
gonna save the
world and you know it's helping people and it's all these
good benefits and all
that stuff you know but and now my grandmother's gone
because somebody
told her it was safe and it wasn't and that's what's
happening here people are
saying that it's safe because they have a financial
interest their property
rights they they look at their mineral rights and they
think it's a lottery
ticket that's just consequence free money that they get to
just like have and
I mean it sucks for some people we heard some stories
earlier from people who are
probably gonna have some real problems if they don't get
that money but it's a
lot easier to find another way to make money than it is to
come back from the
dead you know there's only unconfirmed reports of that
happening one time in
the history of the world and well we won't get into that
but you know it's
you can't you can't bring them back once they're gone you
know I can give you
money you know I'm not offering you money but I'm saying
like like but if
you if you die or if I die you know and actually the gas
company is probably
gonna offer you some money and please think about think
about my grandmother
and what they told her thanks all right thank you thank you
very much anyone else
wishing to come down to speak yes come down and state your
name and address
please Laura Davis PO box 2671 in Denton I used to live on
Pearl Street here in
Denton and recently moved up to Plightsboro the issue here
you guys have
been fighting this for a decade easily mistakes have been
making have been made
by various council members allowing the industry to tell
you what they were
going to do and they haven't followed through and you know
teachers start out
the school year being real hard noses because they know
that you can't start
off easy in the classroom you've got to be tough up front
and you enforce those
rules and then you slack off toward the end that hasn't
happened
unfortunately we've all believed what we've been told the
fact is it's not a
mineral rights owner issue it's not a surface rights owner
issue it's not a
money issue it's it's a I mean I would even venture to say
it's not human rights
it's compliance you guys have the hammer in your hands that
can draw the boundary
enforce the rules that you were told these people were
going to follow you
set ordinances and they have pushed you and pushed you
until somebody else has
had to come in and tell you it's time to say no more you
put this to the vote you
are passing on your responsibility to clean up the mess
that is here now
whoever caused it for whatever reason that doesn't matter
the bottom line is
are you guys going to pass off your responsibility to us or
are you going to
collectively clean up the mess that is here and now and say
we don't
necessarily want the ban but we want this crap to stop and
stop here and if
putting the hammer down on fracking temporarily and tell a
real solution from
all of the people that have volunteered to help you
actually come forward and do
what they say they're going to do then that's what it's
going to take you don't
let a child just keep going and going and going until they
decide that they're
going to let you fix something you guys are the parents
here are you going to be
able to do your job whatever the consequences temporarily
and then go
ahead and make the decision and enforce the rules thank you
thank you
anybody else wishing to speak yes come down please and
state your name and
address
evening my name is Jennifer Lane I live at 1526 Willowood
Street resident of
Denton I didn't really want to speak unless I felt that
something was left to
be said and I'll do my best to articulate it what I think
is that's
left to be said is that if you act tonight and take the
vote to pass the
ban then you can galvanize the energy of the citizens who
worked so hard in
support of you and there's there will be unity together to
deal with what would
be coming after that that would be rather difficult you
know legal
situations and all the rest and that the energy that has
led up to this moment
would be yours to to direct in a way that without that with
without
representative government taking action and leaving it to
sort of a plebiscite
approach I think there is then some disunity there's disgr
untlement on the
part of and disappointment on the part of the citizens of
citizens who've
worked very hard first to avoid such an extreme measure and
then come to an
argument in favor of it that has to be overcome later on
once it's passed and
then that unity is needed for the next step of the game and
this also relates
to what Ed Soff said about the repeal ability of the ban
that instead of the
paradigm of prove that it's dangerous prove that it's
dangerous prove that
it's dangerous and then we'll take stronger measures if we
enact the ban
tonight and then work together to figure out what we're
going to have to do next
and what the dangers are for the city and for yourselves
legally then we are
still in a position to repeal it when the industry if and
when the industry
shows elsewhere that they can do it safely and we can re
introduce a real
loud back into our city or back into our in some way into
our boundaries
something that they want and that's really what I had to
say was that I
think that you're at a crucial representative government
moment with
the citizens that could be really well used that's it thank
you thanks thank
you anyone else wishing to speak if so come down and state
your name and
address
hi my name is Courtney Crow and I live at 1126 Fine Street
apartment 7 Denton
Texas 76209 I moved to Denton about five years ago my
father served 30 years in
the Air Force and I have been everywhere from Austria to
Germany to England Italy
all over the eastern and southern United States if I could
have picked
anywhere to grow up I would have chosen Denton I love it
here but I really don't
feel that fracking is in the best interest of the city over
the last five
years I've considered myself to become a detonate forgive
me I am currently a
student at NCTC and at UNT recently graduated with my
associate of arts I
just the most important thing I can say is from everything
that I've heard I've
heard people from across the country and Oklahoma the most
important thing I can
say is this is not a national issue this is not a Texas
issue this is not a North
Texas issue it's not an Oklahoma issue this is a city of
Denton issue and I
believe that that's where the issue needs to remain that to
me is the most
important thing that I've I've come to see and experience
out of this is it's
not it doesn't these other people that have put in their
air have expressed
their input it's really not a national issue this is a city
of Denton issue and
I really think that that's something you all need to
consider thank you thank you
anyone else wishing to speak
my name is Justin Luber's I live at 2204 Wildwood Lane here
in Denton I find it
interesting tonight when I came up I saw ten maybe fifteen
bicycles out front I
assume everyone else who supports this band walked here I
don't know but I could
only imagine that that would be the case if not then it
seems to me there may be
some hypocrites a lot of people may be very willing to say
they don't they don't
accept the practice of hydraulic fracturing but they do
accept the
lifestyle that goes along with with being in an industrial
ized nation one
that has easy access to oil and gas another thing I'd like
to point out one
interesting fact is I haven't seen or heard from anybody
who works on site
who's come up here and said I feel like I'm in danger or I
've suffered these
health consequences why have we not seen the people who are
we've seen a lot of
people who are a thousand feet away 200 feet away whatever
what about the people
that work on site these are actual human beings performing
the job on site in
fact they sleep there how in the world do they sleep there
with all the noise
how do people sleep next to an airport how they sleep next
to a railroad it's
life in an industrial society two scenarios one with
drilling rigs
everywhere it's probably not that pretty for a lot of
people one with no drilling
rigs 20 want I mean if we start this we're in the direction
to move this way
and I think that that's bad from an economic standpoint I
think it's bad
from a lifestyle standpoint which has been very important
very important
topic tonight and I think you should very much consider not
passing the ban
thank you thank you anyone else wishing to speak
my name is Keely breaks and I 3108 broken boat in Texas and
I say pass the
ban that be the last person sorry anyone else wishing to
speak anyone else
wishing to speak it's the last chance last call all right
we will now close
well before we close it let me I'm not going to read all
the comments because
we have about 200 and some cards here but they will be part
of the record we
have one card that is in this we have one card that says no
position we have
and when we talk about no position on the the ban of
hydraulic fracturing we
have 46 in opposition which means in opposition of passing
the ban on
hydraulic fracturing and we have 161 in support of passing
the ban on hydraulic
fracturing so saying no one else wishing to speak having
the cards coming into
the record I will now close the public hearing and before
we take discussion I
just want to simply say a great thank you to everyone who
attended tonight I
think we had over 500 people that were spread out among the
the municipal
complex and inside this this chamber was had a lot of decor
um much respect and and
I can tell you as the as the mayor and as the chair I
really do appreciate that
you more than you can even imagine so I want to thank you
for that and thank you
for all your comments from both sides and participating in
this process
councilmember Rodin I talked about the need for solutions
earlier and for some
reason just the talk of a ban brought so many folks out
offering their help with
solutions I'm kind of curious about what passing a ban
would do to do that so I'm
gonna move approval of this ordinance we have a motion for
approval of the
ordinance do we have a second do we have a second for the
motion we do not have a
second so the motion to pass the ban fails at this time are
there any other
chair would entertain any other motions oh how do we clear
the
now it's still showing I can technically oh there we go
councilmember Hawkins oh I'm sorry councilmember Gregory
you were okay
councilmember Hawkins before I make the motion to deny this
I wanted to explain
why I want to deny this I keep thinking of both sides and I
really want this to
go to the voters I want this to be on the ballot in
November and I keep
thinking about the vintage neighborhood the kids there the
mineral right owners
both sides and I really feel like this is a very crucial
point in our dent in
history and I really want this to be on that November
ballot all right we have a
motion and we have a do we councilmember Johnson thank you
mayor the
citizen engagement on this issue has really been inspiring
to me this issue
is what got my 18 year old daughter to register to vote and
become an engaged
voter having been on this council for only a couple months
I can tell you all
that these people up here do care they are listening and
and they do we do
understand the quality of life issues that drilling is
causing for our
citizens I for one have been feeling that we've been in a
no-win situation and
because of what I would say the efforts of a nonpartisan
concerned group of
everyday citizens we've been able to draw attention to this
issue at the
state level and at the national level and I do think that
that you have done a
great job of getting the attention of the industry one
thing that we heard
that I heard loud and clear from all of you during the the
campaign process was
that you were tired of the City Council making decisions
without citizens having
the opportunity to vote on it and so for that reason I do
believe it's important
that we educate the citizens you can continue to educate
all the citizens of
the city I hope they're all watching tonight the ones that
weren't here if
your goal was to shed light on the helplessness that we
felt as a city and
trying to create harmony between surface right owners and
mineral right owners
then you've certainly done that and for that I thank you so
I'm going to second
the motion to deny is that the right way to state it yes to
deny this was it for
a 4d sorry for 4d it's 2 in the morning I just been
sleeping for five hours by
now 4d any other any other discussion
councilmember Gregory well I didn't move fast enough I'm
not sure if I would have
ended up voting with councilmember Rodin to approve the ban
I wish I had
seconded it so that we could have that discussion first I
think we're all
actually quite tired I was I was actually thinking that we
were going to
have a little recess and get a chance to stress stretch
before we had this
conversation but we're having it I I find myself very
frustrated this evening
I was looking for some compelling arguments and and I heard
some and and
they were from all of those East Coast and West Coast
people who came into
Denton to agitate except there weren't any East Coast or
West Coast people that
came into didn't to agitate to to promote a ban it was all
local folks that did
that and and I say that because that's the kind of
misinformation that has been
put out there I assume by industry or industry advocates I
'm very concerned
about the kind of misinformation that's going to happen if
we if we deny this
because and our choices tonight are to either approve the
ban as it is or send
it to the voters and I'm just really concerned about the
what we've seen so
far in terms of misleading and inaccurate information
provided by those
who are against the ban and I think that that's only going
to be magnified
significantly because that's going to be where the money is
in the election I
agree with Councilmember Rodin I heard one of the last
people's to speak number
112 I'm sorry I don't have the name right now saying that
that it was the
threat of the ban that caused a lot of industry people to
come up tonight and
say we want to work with you and several times we asked
from the dais okay well
what are your suggestions and that was the answer it was
silence because there
weren't really suggestions you know were we to put a ban
into place tonight
and say to the industry now we'll remove that ban as soon
as you sit down and
give us some real suggestions I suspect that we would get
some because just the
threat of the ban has at least brought them to the table
saying we want to talk
to you about about about being better neighbors then then
then some of the
players have been so so I'm concerned about that I'm one of
the speakers said
that we ought to own our part of the problem and and and I
own part of the
problem because I don't think I worked hard enough to make
our ordinance strong
enough and I don't think I was insistent enough that the
ordinance that we have
was was vigorously enforced as it should be so I think I
think the the city owns
part of the problem we certainly do not own all of the
problem the industry owns
a good bit of the problem the bad players the fact that we
are in a state
that brags nationally about the lack of regulation to for
all industries I think
that that has helped create the problem that we're in so
that's my two o'clock
in the morning rambling councilmember Johnson thank you
mayor I don't know if
this is appropriate what what I heard councilmember Gregory
say was you
didn't feel like you had time to to consider the initial
motion so I am I
don't know what the proper point of order is but I
certainly am happy to
withdraw my second if if councilmember Gregory would prefer
that I don't know
what the right procedure is but if that's what you'd prefer
I would be
willing to do so are you asking I don't know what the right
sure you know I
mean well what I heard you say in the beginning was you you
thought we were
going to take a break and have time and I think and so if
that's the case I
don't want to thank you councilmember Johnson I'm not sure
that it's going to
affect the outcome ultimately of the vote to do that I just
would like to have a
more thorough discussion we've given we've given citizens I
don't know six
seven hours to speak it seems like we need to have some
time to have to to
discuss our options and what we want to do and I think that
we could do that
with this motion on the floor so okay I just just wanted to
offer thank you so
councilmember road and I guess in inquiring about our
options I guess
there's a question that could be clarified in terms of what
is allowed via
the Charter in this case if we were to adopt the ban with
the with the mindset
that we're actually looking for a better option and not
necessarily the band is
the band is the endgame that we're using it as a tool of
sorts to bring people
to the table who otherwise have not been at the table until
we started down this
route or at least our citizens started down this route so
as a citizen
initiative initiative petition has come to us and we're
required to either vote
for it or vote against it and hence put it on the ballot in
November if we were
to vote for it tonight and in good faith have this sense
that hey if some great
solutions come to the table that we think solve the
problems that are
lingering in Denton say within a month or two months or
three months or six
months do we as a council have the ability to repeal this
ordinance given
that it was a citizen initiative at that point I guess that
's a question for the
city attorney in response to that question the the council
would not be
limited with regard to its usual options in handling ordin
ances and those can
always be subsequently repealed or amended or repealed in
part so all of
those options would remain certainly on the table the
motion of course on the
table is at this point in time is to deny and just to
follow up and why while
I do appreciate the citizen engagement that a that a full
city vote would have
to be a citizen vote I think I agree with councilmember
Gregory the mailers
I've gotten what I've seen in the paper this isn't going to
be a citizen vote
this is going to be national politics hits Denton with the
funding of the
industry that's not an even playing field that's David
versus Goliath so if
we really want a fair vote I'm not sure we're gonna get it
so that's why I
think we're gonna get it so that's why I think we're gonna
get it so that's why
I think we're gonna get it so that's why I think we're
gonna get it so that's
why I think we're gonna get it so that's why I think we're
gonna get it so that's
why I think we're gonna get it so that's why I think we're
gonna get it so that's
why I think we're gonna get it so that's why I think we're
gonna get it so that's
to be able to weigh in that was my my reasoning so council
member Engelbrecht
thank you mayor we have a moratorium in place at the moment
and could the city
attorney give us the current expiration date of that
sorry I lied on there that moratorium is due to to expire
in September as I
recall I believe it's the 9th I believe that's right the 9
th of September so
that's the current date on the moratorium if I could then
go further with that is
there anything to preclude us from from further extending
that moratorium
through or even beyond an election date well certainly
certainly the moratorium
was enacted in order to give the city staff an opportunity
to look at some of
the issues under the current gas well drilling provisions
that is currently
underway it is not complete I certainly am not going to sit
here and say it will
be complete by September the the 9th it might be but it
might not be but there's
nothing that would prohibit the council from extending that
for a reasonable
period of time for that effort to continue my and I guess
this is to the
council my thought here is that we have had a number of
industry representatives
who said they want to come to the table and be a part of
basically that process
it would seem to me that we could extend that moratorium in
order to give them
time to come to that table and that would by the way in the
intervening
period between now and the election it would I think in
some ways give some
indication to the public in Denton where the industry is at
with regard to a
willingness to participate in some rulemaking that would
protect our
citizens in that intervening time councilmember Johnson
thank you mayor
another follow-up question I think probably for the city
attorney to play
that a little further if we have the opportunity to see now
how our state
representative state senator in the industry organizations
react to their
promise tonight to come to the table and work in the event
that say for example
tonight we say we want this to go to the voters fast
forward 30 60 days we don't
see the reaction to the promise that we got tonight would
anything preclude this
council from proposing an ordinance exactly the same as
what was proposed
tonight and not waiting for a November election the council
would not be
limited in its prerogatives as far as enacting what
whatsoever regulations
council thinks is appropriate the council could also wait
and see what
happens in the November election and thereafter make
independent
determinations as far as what the council thinks is
appropriate for this
community and the reason I asked that question is we've
heard all kinds of
numbers tonight right we've heard all kinds of threats of
what the lawsuits
and the taking claims and all those things would be and
those would surely
come we've heard all kinds of you know a lot of conflicting
data we've also heard
the industry and the state people say they want to come in
and work this out
right we got bad operators and we want to hold them
accountable so what my
thought is do we have the opportunity to see if they really
follow through on
what they say they're going to do not take the legal risk
of the lawsuits and
if they don't react we still have the option to move
forward with an ordinance
that's that's why I asked the question there are no
restrictions on the council
with regard to bringing forward its own ordinance any other
questions I've got a
few comments I want to make but I want to give all my
colleagues an opportunity
to weigh in yes yes according to our rules according to the
charter we have
to make a decision as to whether this shows up on the
November ballot by what
date the item before the council on item 4d must be finally
considered by this
council within 60 days of the certification of the
ordinance and we are
approximately 45 days into that consideration period state
law does have
some limitations with regard to the time for calling the
election and I would
really need to kind of sit down with a calendar and look at
that we have this
on the agenda tonight behind of this item if the council
fails to pass the
ban then currently we have the item behind that actually
call the election
as far as the exact time I would really need to look at
that for a few minutes
before I give you a specific date I despite what one of the
speakers said
about representing what I said during the campaign what I
said during the
campaign was that I thought that the question needed to go
to the voters and
I said that and then when I was pressed by the questioner
as to how I would vote
if it went to the voters I said I'd probably vote for the
ban as an as an
individual citizen that was reluctant to vote for it as a
council member because
of the the certainty of the the the legal fight and the
cost that would be
involved in that and then I thought that that would be best
to be a decision made
by the voters there's parts of me that still believe that
there's parts of me
that they feel like I'm ready to just go ahead and roll up
my sleeves and engage
in the battle now and and and the reason why is because I
think that that I'm not
sure that the industry is any more excited about that
battle than we are
because it's going to cost them some money too and and and
if it takes that
kind of leverage to to get some serious discussions in good
faith we we had we
had six months of negotiations in the stand-down that when
it all came down to
it seemed to not be as in good faith as we we had hoped and
this might this might
create a situation where there's more real dialogue just an
observation any
other councilmember Engelberg yeah thank you mayor I have
to say going into this
tonight that I was firmly in the court of letting this go
to the electorate
because of the substantial risk associated with it
economic monetary risk but I have to say that the organized
excellent articulate
arguments tonight have have I as well I have had some
second thoughts about about
that and and that's part of the reason why I suggested that
let's since we
already have the one vote we sort of have a direction we're
gonna have to head
now but that doesn't mean that we can't extend a moratorium
with the goal of
seeing just how committed our state officials and the
industry
representatives are to to get down here and try and help us
sift through some of
these many problems the vested rights issues that the
operators say they have
and a whole variety of others that just go along with all
of that so I'm willing
to give this road but I'm not necessarily I would agree
with you I'm
not necessarily willing to wait until November we can go
ahead and call that
but that that leaves us free to still declare a ban on our
own to pass an
ordinance at some other point so thank you
thank you councilmember Rodin it's an interesting strategy
you guys are
suggesting and I guess that leaves me with another question
but we inevitably
would have to in that scenario call the election here in
the 60-day window as
the city attorney mentioned and then if the council because
we don't like what
we're seeing in this dialogue with the operators mineral
rights owners state
legislatures regulatory agencies may decide as you guys are
suggesting we
could at any point come and adopt the ban pre-vote but that
vote will still be
on the ballot correct which could lead into an interesting
scenario
hypothetically you have the council pass something it would
a negative vote in
November in that scenario so a down vote on the proposed
ordinance what happens
when you have a city council passed ordinance then a
citizen denied
ordinance which prevails
councilman typically your later dated ordinance is going to
control of course
as you look at these you would you would try to lay them
side by side and try to
determine what issues remain after any any vote so you'd
have to look at that
very carefully but but typically you would you would look
at some some rules
along the lines of what's the later dated and enacted
ordinance and and
typically it's going to take precedence over the earlier
one I mean I just I'll
just say it again I think we're in a high stakes poker game
of sorts on this
issue I don't want to minimize it by really comparing it to
a game but us
moving to ban right now is a pretty bold move that calls
potentially the bluff of
what folks here who haven't come until now to say we want
to help you it forces
the issue back on them that I'm not sure they were ready
for in a sense I get the
sense that the industry wanted this time to build up a
great campaign against
this thing in November and really had no interest to sit
down and help us fix this
issue now maybe we're wrong and we have the chance now to
call them on that and
perhaps get into a situation we're working together instead
of suing us we
can work together to find a better what they would see as
more reasonable
solution and we can be done with this in a few months and
potentially lift this
ban and have a safer more protective ordinance in place so
that's what I'll
continue to advocate for councilmember Gregory well and I
want to be clear I
don't want to I don't want to mislead anyone with the
comments that I'm making
neither because I'm leaning now to move to vote to against
the motion to
disapprove I hope I'm even saying that right and I'm doing
that not because I
think that a ban is the best thing I think that they're
because of our city
limits and the way they're extended there are some areas in
the in our city
limits where it would be perfectly acceptable for gas well
to be drilled
perfectly acceptable but we need better setbacks we need
some better regulations
before we can do that and and we've learned a lot over the
last few years
about regulations that we tried to put into place that
actually were difficult
to enforce or regulations that that we discovered were
ineffective and I want
to do this in order to get the very best regulations so
that there is an
opportunity for mineral owners to have access to their
property but that we can
protect the equally important not in Texas necessarily but
in Denton maybe
the equally important property rights of surface owners mr.
Johnson I'm sorry
mayor but I just one more point of clarification sure from
legal okay so
playing this out if we vote for the ban today and negotiate
with industry and
whatever else and decide to modify it later we have that
right if we say it's
going to go to the voters so that we have that time to
avoid lawsuits and try
to negotiate with industry and get them to come to the
table and they don't we
can adopt a ban before it goes to a vote if it goes to a
vote and passes or
fails we still have the right to modify or repeal it after
that correct I think
so I do think it's 215 that was a lot of questions embedded
in that I guess I
guess basically the question I'm asking is from what I
understood from the legal
opinion before is regardless of what happens through and up
to a general
election in November electorate on this issue we still have
the ability to
modify or change it later that's correct typically the
council is going to not
give up any of its prerogatives with regard to modifying
ordinances and
whatnot basically the item before you right now is the
petitioners ordinance
to ban hydraulic fracturing and so if you do pass that
tonight our charter
says you will pass it in the form submitted by the petition
ers and so that
is as written and that is as in your backup otherwise were
you to modify it
now it still would go to election and it would create some
it would create some
confusion if you try to modify it at all and and send it
then forward to election
so it would appear at this point in time probably your
consideration is going to
be either to pass it or not pass it right and the reason I
asked the
question is just simply to say because I totally get where
you're coming from and
that's a strategy and a good one that comes with potential
legal issues right
and usually once you're lawyered up now you're not help you
're not working
together right the lawyers are doing all the talking so my
thought is if we do if
we can still adopt this if we so choose two months from now
as a council and I
don't know that we really lose anything by sending it to
election and seeing
what the industry really does over the next couple of
months and if they don't
and the state doesn't help we still have options prior to
it going to the
election and that's just the strategy that I think may be
prudent because now
you avoid legal the legal route in which case usually once
it gets to that point
the two party are sitting down at the table and really
working together now
you're just in a legal battle so those are my thoughts and
I won't talk anymore
thank you councilmember Hawkins all right I'm just trying
to get clear too
if we move to approve this tonight that means it does not
go to ballot no matter
what is that correct if you approve it you would not then
call the election and
we can't do that at a later date for any we'd have to do
another public hearing
or your public hearing is only required with regard to the
item now on the table
for your consideration which is the ordinance itself public
hearing is not
required to call the election but it is on your agenda for
tonight as your next
item and so just to understand everything you're saying
there I think
kind of having the having calling calling it to election
but still being
able to work on it during that time I like that as an idea
and I still if we
are not able to get somewhere possible still having it on
the ballot I'm trying
to understand that and it sounds like even afterwards we
can continue to work
on it sounds like we have a lot of a lot more options than
I originally had
thought
councilmember Englebright thank you mayor as this
conversation was unfolding
it occurred to me that that and I wanted to ask legal could
we pass the ban and
call the election both but I don't really want to go down
that path even if
that's possible because of of mr. Johnson's comments once
the bands in
place I think you may be'll be right then everybody turns
to the attorneys
and nobody talks to anybody until you go to court or
whatever and then we have
have lost the opportunity to see if folks will come to the
table however if
we do go with the moratorium there's no action going on and
and it would serve
as an opportunity for the folks to come and we'll see just
how resolute they
were in their comments here this evening
anybody else any other questions Adam will take I'm gonna
take all of y'all's
time collectively since I haven't spoken it's a tough issue
you know as I
campaigned one of the things that I held steadfast to was
that I was in favor of
the process of the petition that was a major question to
every forum and my
statement was that if the if the petition was was certified
that I would
defend the ordinance if it was passed by the voters I would
defend it and really
what the real question is here the issue isn't the ban
because quite frankly we
could pass this ban tonight and we're gonna wind up right
in the same
situation that we've always been in and that's the vested
rights claim and
that's a very intricate complicated legal doctrine that
would take way too
long to explain but basically it just says people who have
oil wells or oil
well plats or gas well plants that are ten years old or
however old they are
that they're subject to the the laws that were in place at
that time which in
the case of Denton just seven or eight nine years ago was a
hundred and two hundred feet in fact we had a hearing out
with some gas wells at Robeson Ranch where it was 200 feet
that they were subjected to so that's that's the real issue
is how do we find a way that we can begin to enforce our
ordinance without the threat of vested rights hanging over
our head because you will automatically lose if they
prevail on that in fact the city has tried that in one
instance of an injunction and they they got defeated
because of the vested
rights claim primarily so ultimately we have to find a
solution that will that
will meet the interests of the public that put forth this
petition so whether
we pass it tonight whether it's approved by the voters
whether the voters don't
approve it and the council decides to pass it themselves
even after the
November election we still have that issue all right so no
matter what we're
gonna get challenged sometimes it's just a matter of when
and and you know
councilmember Rodin had it right it's a high stakes game of
I don't know if it's
poker but it's negotiation it's chicken it's whatever you
want to call it and I
will be honest with you I have said all along that I would
rather it go to the
voters because it was citizen initiative driven and I would
like it to go for the
voters but I will tell you I've had five interviews today
three on television and
two on radio and I've talked about what my position was at
the election but I
always said they said well how do you feel about it we're
gonna do well have
you made up your mind well no I know what my position has
been based upon
what I know to be the true issues but I said that's why we
have a public hearing
to hear all the information to understand exactly what the
problem is so
folks I got to tell you whether we pass it tonight or
whether it gets passed in
November or if it fails the council passes one in December
all right we're
gonna wind up in the same place so the real question
becomes which one of those
options provides the greatest possibility of success at the
true issue
and that is how do we elicit the help of the people we're
going to need help from
it's this issue is going to be decided in one of two places
the state house or
the courthouse it's just that simple I mean there's nowhere
else to go look
around the country I mean some states have some
municipalities have been
successful the state of New York so that that to me is the
basic question how do
we do it you know part of me has thought as I've listened
to you all tonight and
I got to be honest Kevin I mean I I share your sentiment
that it sort of is
frustrating when we've really had this issue exist for so
long that we've got
no real traction until the bottom sort of fell out as as
you would say with it
getting this close all right and the interest that it's
generated and quite
frankly the tactics that have been employed during this two
-week period to
try to try to do this so my concern is how do we what do we
craft to gain the
best opportunity to truly resolve this issue all right and
I guess I have a
question for the city attorney is the does the moratorium
cover hydraulic
fracturing mayor not using the words hydraulic fracturing
it covers gas well
drilling I will say that hydraulic fracturing is a part of
gas well
drilling and so we've had you and I've had this
conversation so I do think that
in that respect hydraulic fraction is part and part of it
and and thereby
the moratorium would would reach that deep so the mor
atorium does prevent
hydraulic fracturing just because it's a process in
drilling is that my
understanding I think that's accurate now recognize we've
created some
exceptions under the moratorium provision so we would have
to look at
those very very carefully as we look at any of these issues
going forward so to
me what I have to do is figure out what is the best course
of action to achieve
the ultimate goal and I really think from what I heard from
the the
petitioners who spoke the organizers of the petition what I
heard from them was
that this was sort of the last resort it sort of reminded
me and I've shared this
illustration sort of reminds me unfortunately of people who
are caught
in addiction that until you hit bottom people will never
change nothing will
ever be different because there's no reason to do that well
this petition
drive initiated by the citizens and the energy put forth
behind it is sort of
the bottom to some degree for the industry it's a message
sought not across
the bow but straight through the ship of you know many of
our leaders in in in the
legislature and so and we've talked with them we've talked
with them to elicit
help in solving our problems because we cannot enforce if
we had had an
enforceable setback we all wouldn't be here till 2 35 in
the morning I mean it
would be we might be here at a different time maybe a year
from now but we
wouldn't be here at this time if we didn't have an operator
basically totally
ignoring reasonableness cooperation collaboration and redr
illing within a
hundred and eighty seven feet of a residential neighborhood
you've got a
lot of issues that are swirling around here besides
hydraulic fracturing that's
the thing that's the issue that's brought all this to the
surface and I
got to tell you I struggle I mean because part of me wants
to say you know
what come November notwithstanding what happens there we
need to force this
issue to get some help so do we force the issue with a with
a heavy hand or
do we try to go a different route all right and I don't
know the answer to
that question I got to make a decision and about who knows
what a very very
quick amount of time in that regard so you know I
understand council members
rodents perspective I understand the motion and the second
on the band my
biggest concern my biggest concern is in in an election
will it will it be fair
given what we've seen would it be fair and and how it's
perceived and how it's
processed I mean I've received emails as we all have of
people who signed this
alleged petition that was presented to us tonight who've
asked us to remove
their names from that petition because they felt that they
had been misled on
its contents so that's how I see the issue which doesn't
really tell you much
because it doesn't tell me much because I really wrestle
with and one thing you
will know about me if you've watched me on council at all
is that I'm not a
politician I don't make decision based on politics I could
make a decision
tonight here that would if I thought I wanted to have a
second term as mayor
could could defeat that it could but it doesn't matter I
want to do what I
believe is right for the citizens and how we get true
relief because the truth
of the matter is we didn't pass it tonight we're not gonna
have relief
because the first thing that's gonna happen is somebody's
gonna file a lawsuit
on us okay fair enough that's what I mean and as far as the
lawyering up being
a lawyer I understand that but I also know that when an
issue is important
enough and when people are concerned enough about where it
goes that they
will they'll they'll talk to you maybe not at first I mean
they may not talk to
you at first so those are my two cents I stopped still
struggling with it but I
just I just want to let you know no matter what happens
here tonight it can
certainly be a moral victory it can certainly either way it
goes but we're
still going to wind up in the same position we're in and
that is somebody
could ask to drill a well under the exceptions of the mor
atorium and they
could claim vested rights and of course then we would have
to challenge that in
court which obviously I said that I'm willing to do if
elected mayor back when
I was campaigning so I appreciate everybody coming out I
appreciate all
your energy I appreciate the passion in which you speak I
was concerned and
still am concerned that most of the people who spoke
against the ban with
an exception of the few the birches and people that I've
talked to and and
others here in Denton most of them were industry
representatives which okay I
understand people protecting their interests I absolutely
do and I
understand about mineral interests I understand about the
dominant estate in
the Serbian estate but how do we fix this problem and that
's really the key
question here so it's just a matter of strategy it's a
matter of how do we how
do we approach the industry and the legislature
collaboratively to try to
figure out how do we do this we can always come back and
pass a ban we could
pass the ban today we could pass it in between when an
election occurs the
truth of the matter is we'll have it on the books but we'll
still have to face
the ultimate issue of vested rights and that's really
really the key here so I
know there's a lot of emotion I know there's a lot of
passion but also what
anytime you want to resolve a problem you want to figure
out the best strategy
in order to approach that and I sure wish I knew which one
it was I mean I
sure wish I knew which one it was because I do not because
I'll tell you I
see the strategy of voting on the band today and approving
it all right does
that alienate the people that can help you resolve that at
the legislature the
court battle it really doesn't impact that I mean the legal
arguments are
going to be the same no matter when it's passed and when it
's not passed but
let's say if you really want to fix through the legislature
is that going to
improve your chances or is it going to hurt your chances
everybody in here I
can pull everybody and they could have a well most of you
probably have the same
opinion because you're sort of like-minded but some of you
wouldn't I
mean so I guess my vote will be my vote when it happens all
right because I
really I won't know till I press that button and I've said
to many people and
I've said to some of my colleagues that many a time minds
change when they're up
here all right and that's exactly the process works people
that's why you have
a public hearing that's why we had 500 people in here to
talk about the issues
so councilmember wrote and I certainly appreciate your your
thoughts and and
because basically what you're saying is a strategy it
sounds like unless you're
saying we should ban it no matter what or are you are we
using this as a
strategy to just get some relief because it's no secret we
're not revealing
anything we're not revealing any top-secret strategy that
we have we just
want help we're not trying to manipulate anybody into
helping us we just want
your Russian well yeah unless you're Russian unless you're
Russian yeah that
those things really disturbed me honestly I mean that's so
those are my
thoughts on it and and I will give anybody that wants to
respond to take a
minute to respond to that yeah councilmember wrote Mary you
have you've
exhibited a lot of what I've appreciated appreciated about
you over the years
your ability to think through these issues and all sides of
this and so I
appreciate your reflection on those issues and I think that
's right you know
I have concerns about this bands ability to pass in
November and so if there is a
strategy to us leveraging something like this I think the
Democrat demographics
heading into an open governor's race in a midterm election
where you typically
will have about 5,000 voters in a city election this one
you're probably gonna
have about 30,000 so you have 25,000 folks right off the
top who typically
aren't paying attention to city stuff apart from what they
're getting in the
mail from ideological hacks of one form or another and they
're going to the polls
making decisions so I trust our citizens I trust our voters
I'm not sure I trust
the industry who's going to be doing the informing and
spending hundreds of
thousands of dollars to fight this ban now I'll add
something to that we have
another important vote on the ballot in November a hundred
million dollar bond
election and I would just ask us to think about the
rhetoric that's going to
go into this sort of a vote and whether that's going to
lead voters in that are
going to be amenable to helping us pass that a hundred
thousand hundred million
dollar bond election or whether that's actually going to be
damaging to the
future of our city from the point of view of needing to
pass that bond vote
so I think there's even just political strategic thinking
about what's all
going to be on that ballot and what's going to be floating
in the political
atmosphere as people are thinking about Denton thinking
about these particular
issues so I just throw those two things out sure thank you
councilmember Gregory it's not a hundred million it's
ninety what 98 million and
I guess to respond councilmember wrote into your comments I
understand what
you're saying I guess from me personally when I say
strategy it's more how do we
resolve the issue before us I do trust I really have a high
regard for the
process I've seen the process this process has worked I
mean as far as the
the citizen initiative petition so I don't know if I'm
smart enough to think
about all that strategically and politically in that regard
to determine
if somebody's not going to vote for the bond package
because we're also asking
for a ban on fracking I do know this really folks it really
comes down to do
we do it now do we do it later I mean honestly if the if
the band and I've
said this if the band did not pass at the voters would we
be would we lose
leverage I've shared that comment would we lose leverage
and how we're trying to
resolve this issue possibly possibly not the truth of the
matter is this council
can always go back if they don't do it tonight and pass a
ban and pass a ban
that may be more of what this body would envision as a as
an appropriate ban
having not talked to my colleagues about it but so
strategically I hear what
you're saying I just it's hard for me to get my head around
all those moving
parts on that because we you know we may have other issues
on that ballot and it
may be a pretty full ballot councilmember Hawkins I just
want to be
clear though but there is no other way to get this on the
ballot other than to
act tonight or is that right that's where my concern is
typically you're
going to look to some kind of underlying statutory
authority charter
authority to call the election it exists through this
initiative process if the
council does not enact this ordinance tonight then the
charter says that the
City Council shall it's mandatory shall call the election
and so there is
authority there for doing so and in fact it is mandatory if
you do not enact it
councilmember Johnson I know I said we're gonna talk
anymore but you know
here's what I'm we are here all of us are here at the beh
est of every citizen
of this city and we had a one week pulled together citizens
input on the
convention center project the other night and we heard from
people that
we've not heard from on this issue before and and and one
of our former
council members for many years ago got up and said to all
of us I gave us a
little bit of a scolding I think and said you need to get
back to hearing
input from all the citizens and you need to let the
citizens decide on major
issues big ticket items I think is what she said and so I
feel like you know the
I mean I love what the group did I love what the citizens
did here in this
initiative but this is a big decision with large financial
implications with
flexibility to do something different down the road if we
so choose and I
don't know that it makes sense for us to be saying or
feeling like well you know
we're gonna have a whole lot of people out there voting in
November and and
we're gonna have a bond election on there we're gonna have
other things on
there you know so with all due respect shouldn't everybody
be out there voting
I mean isn't that what it's supposed to happen in the
process so to me we don't
lose anything by allowing the citizens all of our citizens
to vote on this
what I fear is what we heard those of us that were campa
igning was that many
citizens felt like the councils in the in the past have
been making decisions
doing a lot of closed meetings and a lot of work sessions
and things and making
decisions without a lot of citizen input or allowing
citizens to vote so it seems
to me like if we don't we don't lose anything by sending it
to a vote then if
50% of our citizens showed up to vote on this and a bond
election and whatever
else was on that ballot isn't that what we want as a
council is all of our
citizens voting it seems to me like that's and and you're
exactly right
industry will have all kinds of money to throw at it but
what we've heard
tonight is we got a lot of smart people in this city a lot
of creative people in
this city and and I think that all of our voters deserve to
weigh in on this
on a decision that's this big all right any other comments
any other comments
sit know the comments we have a motion and a second on the
floor to oppose the
ban in the ordinance as presented in the initiative
petition is that correct
madam city attorney to deny the order to deny the ordinance
thereby sending it to
an election I got people showing up and councilmember Haw
kins yes I just wanted
to clarify how we vote to make sure we vote correctly this
has been a mistake
in the past so just make it clear please the first motion
that was made by
councilman Rodin was to approve the ordinance it failed for
lack of a second
the ordinance on deck at this point in time is a motion to
deny the ordinance
that would deny the ban and it does have a second from
councilmember Johnson so
it is ripe at this point for a vote yeah a motion in favor
is to deny the
ordinance and if the motion to deny the ordinance is
approved then it shall as
we'll see in the next agenda item be called for an election
in November okay
all right we have a motion does everybody understand the
motion we have
a motion to second on the board on the table let's please
vote on the board oh
I didn't I didn't get a chance to vote sorry
oh who made the motion no Joey and Greg seconded a motion
to deny the ordinance
that is correct
the motion to deny is approved five to two we will now move
on to agenda item
5a consider adoption of an ordinance ordering an election
to be held in the
city of Denton on November 4 2014 for the purpose of
determining whether to
adopt an ordinance of the City Council of the City of Dent
on Texas amending
chapter 16 so forth oh yes madam city attorney mr. mayor
let me make a comment
just to clarify the date on which the call for election is
to be had our
charter does specify that the election will be had within
not less than 30 days
nor more than 60 days from the date the council takes the
final vote which was
tonight we have consulted with the Secretary of State
elections division
and our charter has been preempted in this regard and we
are required to call
this election for the next regularly a scheduled election
date which will be
November the fourth okay so the the the caption and the
ordinance are correct as
far as November the fourth yes all right this is an item
for individual
consideration I do not believe we have any cards to speak
so councilmember
Engelbrecht thank you mayor I would move approval of agenda
item 5a to move this
ordinance to a city election on November the fourth 2014
councilmember Gregory
we have a motion in the second let's vote on the board
motion carries unanimously 7-0 moving on to agenda item
number 6 citizen reports
seeing none moving on to agenda item number 7 concluding
items is anyone have
any concluding items councilmember Engelbrecht actually
mayor as part of
5a I wanted to ask the city attorney to briefly refresh us
and the audience on
what the limits of the council members role is in the in an
election such as
this that we have just called yes sir I'll be glad to do
that there are some
provisions set forth in the elections or the excuse me the
ethics provisions
that do limit the ability of city council members to engage
our city staff
for that matter to engage in electioneering and so I think
that you
will see that the city council members will generally be
standing down unless
they are acting in their own individual capacity not using
city resources or
city time with regard to any of these electioneering issues
all right moving
back to agenda item number 7 any councilmember Engelbrecht
thank you
mayor I would ask that that at this time we consider who
would be the point
person for any industry representatives to contact within
the city would that be
the city attorney the city manager I think we have an
opportunity right here
put some word out about if you want to come to help us with
this ordinance
who's who's the contact point city manager be fine and he
'll just he'll
funnel them to the appropriate staff all right very good
councilmember Rodin it was a part of some of the discussion
leading up to our
vote but I'd like to ask that as soon as we can that we
have a discussion on the
length of the current moratorium and look at our options
and the possibility
of extended that up to a November time period all right or
perhaps thank you
any other comments saying none we are now adjourned
you