chair correct. Hey, um, welcome to Traffic Safety Commission. Um, we call for our call
to order. We do now have a quorum of four of seven members, so the meeting may come
to order. Um, so we do not have any presentations or comments from the public, so we will go
right into our items for today. Um, and so item, uh, a TSC 21005 consider the approval
of minutes from March 3rd, 2021. Um, do we, are there any corrections that are needed
for last month's meeting? I'd like to correct that. We discussed holding the meetings on
the third Monday rather than the third Wednesday. Okay. Do we, for a meeting correction, do
we need any kind of, any kind of vote on that? Or can we just, is that just go on the record?
It can go on the record and you can, as a body, approve the minutes as, as, as corrected.
Okay. All right. So having said that, are there any other corrections needed for the
minutes? All right. So if there aren't any other, then we just need to vote on the minutes
with the one correction from commissioner Thurman. Um, does everyone approve of the
minutes, including commissioner Thurman's, uh, recommendation that it's say the first,
uh, the third Monday instead of the third Wednesday of the month? Uh, all in favor we'll,
we'll do, go ahead. Actually chair, can we go ahead and do it with a motion and a second?
They can move to approve and then second the roll call vote because we're on zoom. Yep.
Can we, can we get a motion to approve, uh, commissioner Thurman's, uh, addition and the
minutes? I motion to approve Clay Thurman's addition to the minutes. Anyone want to say,
okay, say seconds. All right. So can we, we're going to have to go ahead and go through a
vote. So I'll, I'll name each commissioner and you can just give me a yay or nay to prove
it. Um, commissioner Clark. Yay. Commissioner Thurman. Yay. And commissioner sample. I saw
a yay, but I think you're muted still. I don't know if you're able to unmute. Do we need
him? Do we need him to unmute for it? Okay. Can you hear me now? Yep. Can hear you. Yay.
All right. So, and I also, uh, vote yay. So the minutes are approved with the correction
from commissioner Thurman. All right. Um, onto our next item, item B TST 21 zero zero
six receiver report, hold a discussion and consider making a recommendation regarding
the frame street closure for the didn't police department facility and city hall east renovations.
Thank you chair. I am going to share my screen and make a short presentation to you. Can
everyone see my screen? Fantastic. So want to talk to you a little bit today about the
frame street closure. Um, just to give you a little bit of a background, the closure
is requested for the Denton police headquarters construction project. Uh, that project began
on January 15th, um, is expected to be substantially complete by next June, 2022. Um, the frame
street closure was requested specifically by the police department for security reasons.
Um, and that request was made back in July, um, of last year, um, following the feedback
from the traffic safety commission. Um, we also will be making the presentation as a
staff update to mobility committee. Um, then we will be producing with our public affairs
team notification for the adjacent, uh, property owners and residents in the area. Um, we've
been coordinating with the solid waste department, um, for delivery service to the facility during
and after construction. Um, there's some temporary delivery items that had to be taken care of
right now from a dumpster access, um, point, and then we'll also be coordinating, uh, with
that final construction, uh, and the final location of those dumpsters. Um, and then
staff will have signage, um, installed that will notify the motorists about the changes
to the traffic pattern. Um, and then also, um, an update to the GIS maps. Thought I would
show you a little bit of a map to kind of explain what's happening. If you drive along
McKinney street today, you will see that there is already some demolition going on
in the area. The yellow highlight is a boundary box that really kind of shows the location
of the Denton police headquarters facility, uh, what we also call kind of city hall east.
Um, this is, um, railroad, um, and then Hickory street. So it's very interesting. This is
actually frame street and this is actually oak. So currently right now the police department
is parking in this vicinity and I'm gonna zoom in just a little bit so it'll make the
picture a little bit bigger. Um, and so what you can see is, um, there's a proposed to
have a security gate in this location and this location that will still allow for access
to this facility that's located right here. And then also this facility and this facility.
And I'm going to show you that on the next slide, um, a little bit more detail that kind
of shows you the overview of what the, um, headquarters renovation proposed site plan.
So as you can see, there will be all of the parking located here and then parking located
here. Um, what is maybe a little bit difficult to see from the screen is that there's going
to be public parking spaces in this area, but this little line with the circles is actually
the perimeter fencing. So this entire area will be fenced for security purposes all the
way around the facility. Um, so right here there will be a secure entrance and then also
in this location will be a secure secured entrance. Um, this will allow the police department
to come into the facility, use the security entrance and then park in the, um, covered
parking area or in the secure police parking location. The same thing can happen off of
McKinney. They can come in on frame street and park in the secured area. So essentially
the entire parking lot for the police department, all of their vehicles, equipment will be located
within the fence secured area. You can see the existing building. There are some additional
features that are being added to that, that our facilities, um, uh, management and facility
team is, is handling. Um, and so just wanted to kind of show you a graphic of, you know,
what it looked like today versus what it's going to look like in the future is quite
a bit of parking. And really that's the reason behind, um, the request for the closure of
frame. And then of course, this is also called Oak to allow for those security fencing to
be installed, those security gates so that all of the parking of the police department
and other facilities, um, individuals that are coming to the police department location
will be housed. Um, I know one question that may have been on your mind is, um, this is
Hickory street and you know, part of our concern was, is if we close this road, does it negatively
impact the actual traffic for the existing, uh, locations, you know, along this, uh, border
and what this is, and it's a little bit difficult to see probably, um, but it actually is, um,
a vehicle turnaround truck turnaround where we actually had the turning radius is put
in so that you could see if a car turns, comes down, makes it to this point realizes, oh
my goodness, there's a fence there. I can't go through. They can actually back up and
then come straight out. Also in this vicinity, there's a probability and proposal of putting
some of the dumpsters in this location. So I wanted to make sure that those vehicles
could actually make those turning movements. And what staff is asking is for your recommendation
on the closure of frame street. Um, you have the opportunity to approve frame street, um,
decline the frame street closure, um, or provide a staff with any kind of alternative, um,
recommendations. Um, actually what will happen in the next steps is an ordinance. If, if
you so I choose to approve to close the roadway, um, an ordinance to close the roadway and
obtain the right away. Um, and that plan is to be presented to council on the 27th. So
with that, I'm going to stop sharing and then, um, open it up for discussion.
Thank you for the presentation. Yeah. And so Robert's rules of orders. We'll try to
just, just either indicate by hand. I'll keep an eye on the screens if you have questions
and I'll try to call on you, uh, commissioner. All right. So my concern is all the folks
that one bike through that space. When you look at a heat map on Strava, you can see
that most people who bike use that space because when you go over to the, when you cross McKinney
to the French street on the other side, that's how people are getting across. It's a really
short space between the frame street right behind the police station and the next one.
You can go down to Bradshaw and cross on that space, but the gap between those two roads,
it's much greater. And so, um, there's a, I mean, you know, we all know McKinney is
a, is very, there's a high, lots of traffic on McKinney. So you have to watch both ways.
You have to make sure it's clear on either side. And then to get across is, um, is tricky.
So secondly, what about all those folks who are on the B the East North side of town?
How are they also getting to the train station? So is there alternatives to this space for
people who need to cross over McKinney and to clarify. So you're, they're coming off
of McKinney commissioner car. And then they would be, you're concerned that they go down
frame street. Is that, that's down. So what's happening. If you look at a heat map on Strava,
people are using that space, that frame street Oak street to what it, um, Hickory, they use
that a lot. I mean, it's, it's on the heat map. That is a major space for people who
use, who cycle. And so, um, because it goes both ways versus railroad, which is a one
way and it's a small gap between those, between when you go from, when you cross frame street
from behind the fires, from the behind the police station, and then you go across to
the frame street on the other side of McKinney, it's a really small gap versus all the other
places damn. And the only other safe place to cross McKinney, you have to go all the
way up to civic center where they have the flashing lights and nobody wants to do that.
Nobody, I mean, how are you getting there when you're on the Northeast side of town?
So is there an alternative? I get why the police want to do what they want to do, but
only generate like some other space, safe space for people to cross McKinney.
I think that's something that we can look at and discuss with the individuals that are
actually responsible for the Denton police facility and see if there's any other changes
that they are welcome to listen to. At this point, that's not something that actually
has been discussed, but we're willing based on your conversation and comments that you
have to bring that up to those folks and the facilities team that are working on the construction
of this facility based on the concerns that you raised today.
And I can, I've got a screenshot of this Java heat map if you want to see it too. Sure.
That may be something that we'll ask to reach out to you at a future timeframe. You know,
I understand the concern that you've mentioned. I think this needs some safe, some safe ways
to cross McKinney. It's not a whole lot of them. And people are trying to get around
the city while, you know, on either on foot or, you know, by we need, and they're trying
to get to you the train station. They need safe spaces to do that. And right now there's
not, there's really not that many. And thank you, commissioner. I also know I've
run through that area and it's just not a very navigable area. So those, I've used those
streets before kind of to pass safely because as I think commissioner sample has brought
up in the past that McKinney doesn't have a safe crossing, right? It's, it's incredibly
unsafe. And so part of the problem is, is we haven't, we have a larger problem that
this whole area has not been made safe for pedestrians. So people use these side streets.
I think Chandra has had her hand up. So maybe we should let her chime in real quick.
Thank you commissioner. And to answer commissioner Carr's concern, there is future road diet
plans for McKinney since it's a four lane. And there were discussions before to have
that as a one lane in each direction with the center turn lanes. And when that happens,
we can consider installing hawk signals. I think we considered one further east on justice
peace center. So if that is not feasible anymore, then we can consider by either Bradshaw or
frame to make that safe crossing in the future, but we need to do the studies and confirm
that. So that should not be a hindrance. And also on the future bond, mingo will be having
separated bike lanes. So that will have a continuous bike lanes on Bell mingo. So that
should address the concerns that commission card has today.
And if I can, I mean, sidewalks, we just don't even have sidewalks correct that that are
continuous on we don't even, so it's not even about even restructuring the whole road, but
starting with sidewalks. So people, I mean, McKinney is probably one of the worst examples.
Commissioner sample commissioner sample has his hand up.
Yeah, I just want to chime in on what was being said when you're coming down McKinney
to take their street away. People use that street because McKinney is not safe. On some
part of McKinney. I think I'm on the right side. If you go into a salvation army, you
don't have a sidewalk until you get down by the courthouse. So to try to cross and take
up that to take away that much. I wouldn't want to see that. And then again, how long
would it how long with the person be up a year, two years or what was it? What's the
time frame of them blocking it off? It's is it it's my it's permanent is not
is that correct that it's meant to be permanent? Yes, sir. It's meant to be permanent. It's
going to be a permanent location for the Denton Police Department to house their vehicles
and park with a secured fencing site. So it's going to be a permanent structure that will
be installed. And I guess for me, I've always said, if you take something away from from
pedestrians, you have to give something back to them. You know what I mean? And so everybody
can still remain safe. If if the pedestrian and bikers are using that area, we're both
not taking something away from them. What are we going to put in a place to make sure
that they're safe in this area? Sure, no, I think all your your comments are valid.
I think what probably is best for us to do is look into, like Chandra mentioned, the
future projects in this area, along with the future sidewalks, the future crossing that
we could provide and look at it overall and do the studies appropriately to understand
what the traffic patterns are, not only from a traffic perspective, but also from a vehicular
bicycle and then also pedestrian perspective to see if there's additional things that need
to happen in order for this roadway to close. And one of the things that's also going through
my mind is I understand the entire police facility will not be closed until June of
twenty twenty two. So that does give the city some time to look into other things that could
happen in this area. I don't know exactly when their time frame and I could get with
the group that's doing the police headquarters to find out exactly what the time frame is.
But I would not anticipate at this point that they're actually going to be wanting to close
that immediately. So I think there's something we could do to work with them on when they're
actually going to be doing the installation of the fencing and and coordinate that with
some future type of improvement to allow for the crossing of McKinney Street specifically
related to some of the comments that Chandra made to maybe address some of these concerns.
If that's something y'all like for us to look into and discuss with them and bring back
at a later date, I think that that's it's really up to the commission as to how you
would like for us to proceed forward. I have one more question. Okay. If they if they plan
on closing this down and moving over all for 288, why are they putting a fence up here?
I'm sorry, I'm not following your question. The police station that's down on Hickory,
right? That's where they close it off. Well, they're building another. Am I correct that
they're building another one on 288, that big building across Maldives? I'm sorry, sir.
The area down on loop 288 right by Aldi that you're referencing, I believe you're referencing
the county building, not the city. Okay, okay. I just want to make sure before. Okay, I understand
that I guess I was getting across because I thought everything down here. I thought everything
down here was moving over there. Yes, sir. The county facilities are being constructed
along loop 288 along with a future DPS facility in that area, but it will not be city facilities.
Okay, okay. That was my mix up. That was just my mix up. I'm sorry about that. Okay. I make
the same. I have to have trouble following the difference between city and county buildings
all the time. So I understand that one. I so a question I have and maybe I missed this
in the presentation, you may have already addressed this Becky. So I apologize if I'm
re-hashing. Why are the parking lots, the parking lots just not secure? Why do they
need to close the streets? Right? Like why not just, why not just build around the parking
lots? I'm just confused why the street needs to be closed. Exactly. Chandra, I think has
a comment. Yes, commissioner chair. This is Chandra. There were instances that I've been
told that police parked during those early morning hours that they park and cross the
street. There were incidences that were unsafe for the police. And this is a couple of years
ago they had like incidents of that latest saying that they have to cross and the street
has been, the facility is on located on the south side and the parking is on the north
side. So it was told to us that you never know what can do and the public and the visitors,
anybody can use that street that will divide that facility. So if it's a one block when
they enter and they can secure, they can have all those secure features inside. So they
will have like a, that is what the renovations will accomplish as like instead of separate
facilities on buildings on the west side and the parking on the northern side and the other
buildings on the south side, they want to have one secure facility. So if I'm understand
correctly, the police feel unsafe crossing the street between the parking lot and the
building? Yes, I think there were some instances that happened during the midnight or early
morning hours. So they feel that they have to secure the facilities since they have those
things there. So I can find out more details on what was that and I can communicate back.
Sure. I would love to know more, a little bit more about that because it is troubling
to think the idea of closing public streets with gates because I mean, it's, it feels
like the wrong solution. If, if I may put that forward, right. It feels like closing
the street, if there's some kind of security issues, because I mean the, it's not the rest
of the building would still be as accessible to the public as anything else. And so if
there's security issues here, I think I'm curious to know more about those, but closing
entire public streets for that purpose. I mean, we don't do that anywhere else in the
city. So it seems very out of line within any other policy that exists. I've never really
heard of that closing public streets. So, so police can cross the street. And that takes
away a lot of access. So I'm fairly confused about why the street needs to be closed, you
know, closed now that we're hearing more about it.
Well, I think the answer to the question for, and we're happy to bring the facilities team
and the PD back to answer any specific questions that you have. And I think really the comment
at this point is that the facility, the police department was parking on the south side of
Hickory, which was a disconnect between the facility along with not enough parking for
their entire facility. And so what their hopes are is with closing off this area, having
a gated locked in area for all of the patrol vehicles, any of the additional police vehicles
where they're building an entire area, which is more of a headquarters type scenario where
they have entrance from either the frame or the Oak Street area to be able to park their
vehicles. And I think that's, that's really the purpose of their request. I will also
tell you that based on the traffic that we've seen kind of going through that area, it's
very minimal in nature based on the information that we have that there's not a lot of traffic
that actually takes that roadway due to the configuration. It sounds like a commissioner
or car has expressed that it's definitely something that from a bicycle standpoint that's
being used. But from our information that we have to date, it's not a typical path of
a vehicle that travels through that area. So it sounds like you have, you know, quite
a few comments and questions that you have brought up. So definitely want to do our best
to answer any of the questions or concerns that you might have and have the other individuals
a part of the conversation. I know they're very much interested in working to, you know,
secure that entire facility and have all of their vehicles, all of their equipment housed
in a secured site, similar to how we have other sites along the city that are, you know,
completely gated areas such as the service center that have, you know, kind of that overall
gated area too. So I think that's really what their request is, is being able to have a
facility that is a gated facility that all of their vehicles can be parked in and allow
them access to that area, as you can tell. Does the service center, did they have closed
streets that were previously public that they closed at the service center location? I would
have to look into that question. There is a road, a major road that dead ends into the
service center. If you've ever been over in that area, both roadways dead end and then
it's closed in that area for where the actual service center is. But I would have to look
to see if there's an ordinance or a document that showed that closure. I do not know that
information off the top of my head. Okay, well, and one other thing I worry about
a little bit is thinking through the unintended consequences to have this, for example, say
there's a wreck on McKinney right in that vicinity, right? And this would be a means
for people, for example, to get out of the traffic situation. I wonder about things like
that might be considered other unintended consequences. Well, so I think our options
today they give us three options on the agenda. It says approved French reclosures requested
decline French reclosures requested provide staff with alternative direction. I don't
know. Do we need to vote on one of those three? Is that correct? Trey, can you verify that?
If you're doing a like a straight up approval or or denial or even like an approval with
a comment, that would be a vote. If it's just staff direction, you would not need a vote
on staff direction. Okay, so from the commission, I mean, we those are those are our choices.
I mean, do we? So it's a challenging to figure out how to answer this, because I would like
to know more, right? And I almost wonder if we could delay this. And if somebody wants
to come and present us with more information, but also if the maybe the police could explain
more the reasons for this if they wanted to attend, but then also could the city possibly
investigate some of these alternate issues that we're bringing up, for example, like
could could the could even building something like this be paired with improvements to the
area, right? Could those be done simultaneously so that if there was something so so we could
at least know what the options are aside from just closing this, because right now as presented,
I think we're just being asked, should we go forward with this or not? It seems like
there's a lot of questions. So is that can we delay this? Is that Commissioner Carr and
Commissioner Thurmond and Commissioner sample? I'd love to hear you. Would you all be interested
in in delaying this and learning more? I'll go in order Commissioner Carr. Go ahead. I
would agree. I'd like to see if you know, we can parlay this into, you know, another
way to cross McKinney and edits and in a safer way. That's what I would like to see. Okay.
So that that's one. That's a that would probably fit under the alternative direction. Commissioner
Thurmond and I'll come to Commissioner sample. Commissioner Thurmond, what are your thoughts?
Yeah, I'd like to see this brought back with more information from police and from traffic.
I have used that street before, both as a motorist and as a cyclist. It's not an everyday
street. I'll admit that. But I think there's too many questions for us to give a straight
up or down vote right now. And I would really like to see for come up with safer crossings
for cyclists and pedestrians. As Melissa mentions about Strava, Strava kind of measures what
I would call your elite cyclist because they're going to have the technology and they're the
more hardcore riders. But those people also happen to follow a lot of tracks that everyday
people use. And there's a lot of everyday people that are not being counted that Strava
doesn't count. But I would say that Strava is kind of like they're following the path
of least resistance. One of the things when we're making trails and things, we look for
a cow trail, and that's where the traffic is. And so that's a good place to base your
trails off of. So I'd like to see this come back with more input from the police of why
they want it, why they think it's necessary, and from traffic of what options we could
put in. Since this doesn't sound like something that's going to happen right away, I would
like to see something in place in advance of some of these other major improvements.
Thank you, Commissioner Thurmond. And also one point you made me think of is have we
asked the people that live right next, the closest to the street, right, on the housing
back in that area and those businesses, like whether, you know, how their feelings of the
street being closed and how that would affect them. Commissioner Sample, what are your thoughts?
I guess I would need to hear more if it's, I guess blatantly it's, I don't feel comfortable
closing something because the police say they feel uncomfortable when we're crossing the
street. I mean, and that's my biggest drawback. You know, let's, I think we got to need to
hear more about it. Pacific, the real reason why they want to do it. If it's a safety issue
for them, what they're causing is safety for people who's riding bikes and walking. When
I was, I used to use that area. Everybody knows my back. So I used to use the area to
go from one side of town to the other. Everybody did. You know what I mean? Why? Because it
was safer than walking down McKinney. So before we can close off an area, let's try to fix
McKinney to make it safer. You can't put people and pedestrians in harm's way to make police
feel safe by crossing the street. You know what I mean? I mean, I'm sorry, I know it's
a serious matter, but I think you understand what I'm saying is that, so I would just have
to have, hear more about it. You know, the real reason why. It's a public street. So
you're taking the street away from the public. Yeah. And I just, even more exploration if
would be possible. I would like to, just for time concerns, I would love to move forward
because it seems pretty clear that what we're going to request is bringing this back up
in a future meeting. And if, please let me know if I'm off base on this, but I think
our commission requests to be to bring something to future meeting with more understanding
of why this public street needs to be closed and possible alternatives. And then also possible
projects that could be paired if it were to be closed, seems to be my understanding of
the situation. Is that an accurate representation of the committee's views? Yes. Okay. All right.
I see a thumbs up from Commissioner Carr. Commissioner Sample said okay. And I got a
thumbs up from Commissioner Thurmond. So, officially Trey, yeah, sorry. You already, I think you
already answered this, but so can we, can we just request that? Do we need to do a vote
just to request that this come up on a further, on another agenda when we're able to get a
more detailed report on some of those issues? To do it officially, you could do a, a motion
to postpone to a, to an event certain, and that would be just the step bringing back
the, the, you know, the next presentation. Okay. All right. So, if we can get a motion
to postpone this event until a, we can get further reports from somebody. Make a move
that we do that. Okay. Second that. And we have a second from Commissioner Carr. And
so if we can do a yay or nay, if that is approved, Commissioner Thurmond? Yay. Carr? Yay. And
Commissioner Sample? Yay. Okay. All right. So, and I am also a yay. And so our commission
would like to, to bring this back up at a further meeting. Okay. All right. So moving
on to our next issue. TSC 21-007, staff reports. We have a staff memorandum update regarding
the senior planner, bicycle, pedestrian, and ADA coordinator position and Google Drive
roundabouts. And then also we have items of interest for future consideration to discuss.
Thank you, Chair. So just wanted to give you a brief update before I turn it over to my
friend, Daniel Kramer. So the senior bicycle, pedestrian, and ADA coordinator position,
we held interviews on April 9th. There were four candidates, and I know several folks
from our different committees were also a part of those interviews. And so with those
different applications and candidates, we had four great interviews. And I will tell
you that we are working through the process of having a second round of interviews, and
those are to be held this Friday. So just wanted to kind of keep you up to date as to
where that position is currently in the process. And so really that's just more of an informational
item for you. With that, I want to turn it over to Daniel Kramer. He's going to give
you an update to the Kinkle Drive roundabout. He's going to briefly just talk to you about
a presentation he'll be making also to Mobility Committee on the 21st, and then it'll be a
part of a work session on April 27th. And so with that, Daniel, I will turn it over
to you. Thank you, Becky. Get my screen put up here.
Okay. Good afternoon, Chair and committee. I want to talk to you about the Hinkle Mimosa
roundabout right at the intersection of Hinkle Mimosa here in Denton. So a roundabout, do
a little background on just what a basic roundabout is. You know, it's majorly there as a traffic
calming device to help slow down vehicle movement. It reduces some accident severity, and it
can also help with maintenance costs compared to some signalized intersections, as based
on that versus a regular roundabout. It keeps traffic moving consistently as it goes through
instead of intersections or stop signs. This roundabout specifically was added to the Magnolia
drainage phase two project in 19, and was completed in October of 2020. So this is still
a new roundabout for our city. We've heard some concerns about the roundabout. A lot
of them come from what I think is some confusion for the motorists, because this is not a familiar
traffic intersection here in the city of Denton. Also that emergency vehicles as they're traversing
the roundabout, they have to drive over the center. And on this particular roundabout,
which is called a mini roundabout, that is the actual intent and design of it. We've
also had a couple of citizen complaints and accidents received to date. We've had two
engaged Denton requests and resident requests forwarded from two council members and two
calls from Denton PD about the roundabout. You know, we've also had zero claims that
have been reported to the city for any damages because of that. So we had some of the complaints
that came up were difference in the safety and the visibility of the roundabout. So what
staff did is we instigated a photometric study, which was completed back in March, that drove
the roundabout in dusk and night areas to verify that there was good visibility. They
had a few recommendations that came out of that, which was to add additional reflective
pavement markings on the median noses to help make those more visible. Some LED solar rays
pavement markers and upgrade the light poles and current lighting in the area. And that
was on the Hinkle side. On Mimosa, they suggested modifying the curb and median geometry, which
would help with vehicles being able to get through the intersection better and also increase
the distance from the outside curb of the road narrowing farther back because they did
notice there were some vehicles that were parked close to the roundabout, which making
it hard to get in and out of the roundabout. What we estimate for those costs is an additional
$22,000 to get those costs added to the roundabout. It was also brought to our attention that
there are some ideas about just removing the roundabout and putting that traditional four-way
stop with stop signs in there. Now, when we do that, it does have some concerns that we'll
bring up, which will be slowing the traffic flow in the area. And also, as everybody knows,
stop signs are not always observed by all motorists at all times. So there is a chance
of people actually running the stop signs and going through there, which is true in
any intersection that we do have. Also, the confusion of the right to proceed protocol
when you have a four-way stop and making sure the proper vehicle goes first. And another
issue is that we've already incurred roughly $137,000 to already have this roundabout installed
and in place at the time. Some of the benefits that we will have is the actual striping and
the signs, it's more familiar for the motorist. They're used to it, so it won't be as big
of a change and something they'll have to get used to. And also, the maintenance cost
of the striping and signage is a little bit less than what the current roundabout would
be on the striping side. So to actually remove this and put the concrete back, I mean, sorry,
the asphalt and remove the concrete and put it back to a four-way stop is actually going
to be right around about $140,000 to do that.
After looking at all these concerns and everything, staff is looking at recommendations for upgrades
based on the photometric study to improve the visibility. We are going to be working
with DME to go forward with the street light plan. One thing that has been brought up is
they will also be bringing on the 27th to city council a neighborhood LED plan for some
concerns about migration, migratory birds, and the lighting plan for the neighborhoods
in the area. So from that direction, from city council, we will be looking at how much
additional light we can add and look at that for that. And with that, I will stop sharing
my screen and ask for any questions or comments.
Thank you for the presentation. Do we have questions from commissioners who want to let
me know? Commissioner Thurman, go ahead.
I know that the roundabout has gotten a lot of derision on social media, but I'm hesitant
to take the roundabout out because that's basically we would have spent a quarter of
a million dollars of taxpayer money to get back to what we had. And I think that's not
fiscally responsible of us. So I like the improvements that they're talking about. But
what about bike lane ending? And can we do anything with that? Because that presents
a hazard. And that is a main corridor. And we talked a lot about this when this project
was being initiated.
Correct. We are looking at that. This specific one was just about pretty much removing or
keeping the roundabout. We have had discussions and we will be working with traffic and also
engineering and making sure that we can get those bike lanes in and get some connectivity
across the city on that, especially in this area.
Can you clarify what does the process look like when you say you're looking at it? Does
that mean it's going to be come up at specific times? Or how does that timeline work?
We've had discussions in the area. We do know there's some connectivity issues as how they
go through and how the bike lanes abruptly end in certain areas. We are looking at some
different -- I'm trying to look at a picture of the roundabout to make sure I'm calling
this correctly. But with the curb widening and how we're looking at with modifying that,
there are some options that we can. I will be working with Chandra on that as we implement
those and go forward. We will have some more plans going forward. We don't have an in depth
on that right now.
Okay. Thank you. I think I certainly agree that's something we would want to follow up
on. So it seems if I'm hearing this right, Daniel, it's kind of not a high level of number
of complaints we're getting here, right? I think especially with a new type of system
like a roundabout, most people are used to stop signs, you expect to get some. But it
seems like a pretty low number of complaints that we've got so far. Is that a correct characterization?
Yes, sir. We do have some system that are vocal about it and don't like it. Just like
with anything new, it's something to get used to. On our side, we probably could have done
a better job of some public outreach and doing some more teaching on how to use roundabouts
and getting some more information out, which we will be pushing forward with our public
outreach committee on that to make sure that we can get that out, sorry, not committee
of the department. So we can make sure that they get that out to the public so they understand
how to properly navigate a roundabout and they can go forward.
Thank you. Thank you. Other commissioner comments? Commissioner Carr?
I do like the improvements that you guys are making and I think it would be better to do
that than to scrap the whole thing and to start over with just a four way stop. So I'm
totally great with the improvements and I would like to thank Clay for bringing up the
fact that the bike lanes do not go all the way through, that you have to stop, you have
to get in the lane, go around the roundabout and then get back in the bike lane. I'm hoping
that that does change. I don't know, I can't remember why that was something that got,
that was approved like that, but I would love it if it could change. That's for the record.
Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Carr. And I think,
I think that's an issue we've been talking about recently, right, is that we're a lot
of, I think the city's work is trying to fix old mistakes. Unfortunately, some new roads
are getting built. We're still seeing some of the same mistakes, sidewalks that are either
unsafe or discontinued and bike lanes that abruptly end things like that. So hopefully
that's something overall in planning we can look at. But with that, I mean, I agree with
the commissioners that have spoken. I think I'm in favor of making the suggested changes.
I don't think redoing this would be a smart financial move in the city, especially for
the number of complaints that we've heard, which seems relatively low to what I've heard.
Is there any other commissioner comments or can we, do we want to make a recommendation?
Chair, you actually do not have to make a recommendation on this. This is just a staff
item that we brought forward to you for more of an informational purpose. It will be a
work session item that is going to be on city council on the 27th. But it is just really
more of a FYI of something we're currently going through and evaluating so that we brought
that to your attention. Okay, perfect. Thank you, Becky. And with that, then it would mean
that we just the last item would be identified items of interest for future staff reports
or update up to the agenda that have been made. Sure. And I wanted to really quickly
just touch on a couple of comments that were made. We do realize there are some situations
out there similar to this roundabout where we can do increased public outreach to show
how individuals will make their way through this roundabout, particularly we understand,
you know, our fire department, solid waste department, but then also just regular vehicular
traffic. But I know also the bicycle traffic has been brought up and pedestrian traffic,
I'm sure is also always a concern. These will be things that the senior planner, bike
ped ADA coordinator will look at and review from a perspective of any new project that
we're putting in. And we've seen quite a few examples of things that maybe didn't go exactly
the way that we would have liked for them to that are now kind of things that we're
having to go back similar to like what Daniel mentioned on this roundabout and look at what
we can do to try to improve that area. So please understand that it definitely is on
our radar and something that we want to continue to try to address as those concerned arise,
not only from a vehicular traffic, but also from that pedestrian and bicycle traffic perspective.
So just just wanted to make mention of that. It's definitely on our radar. So thank you,
Becky. We appreciate that. And I think I think one one thing I could if I could add really
briefly to I'll say is, you know, I think sometimes these decisions in cities are hard
because we always want to be responsive to the public. But sometimes it's also challenging
to make, you know, kind of use best practice decisions that are going to be safe for citizens
even in light of like a kind of a small minority not wanting something in the city. So I think
I understand how hard it is to navigate those challenges, too. So we appreciate the committee.
And I guess that's kind of what we see. I see as part of our job as a committee is to
ensure that, you know, things like this are as safe as possible, which include things
like bike lanes. So thank you all for going through that process.
No problem at all. We're happy to help. So with the last item, I really just wanted to
go through in your package, you saw kind of a future agenda item. There's some agenda
items on here that are have been on here for quite some time. A lot of them are older than
myself and my time in the department. And so wanted to take this time to do a little
bit of a cleanup and make sure that we're all on the same page with what items you'd
like to have brought be brought back forward. I'm just so I can work on a scheduling with
our committee and with the commission and then also a schedule with our staffing and
make sure that we're allocating appropriate time to be able to bring these things back
to you. The first item that you see is provide urbanization options for Carol from Mulberry
to Oak and then Bell from Mulberry to McKinney. The last comment I see is that concepts are
being developed. Is that something that the commission is still interested in discussing?
And I'm going to go through these one by one so that I get clear understanding and that
I can provide these provide these back to you in a time frame with a schedule associated
with that. I'll I'll answer quickly that I was the requester on that one. And I think
these are these are actually some I've been bringing up these streets specifically probably
since I started on the committee commission in 2016 because I see them as the most dangerous
streets. Particularly, you know, I I'll just say real quickly, I cross Bell a lot to go
over to armadillo and to go over to the little restaurant over there. And we still lack good
crossing and sidewalks on those areas. And these are like in our course. So so the question
is is what would long term plans look like to address these kind of streets? And we've
done some of the work already, like for example, on McKinney, we have a really good crosswalk
that I love using and used all the time now that that was installed. And so those are
what when we talk about urbanization options, those are consideration. We've also talked
about these streets potentially, you know, getting re urbanized and considering do they
need as many lanes as they have, I've particularly brought up Carol around that this Carol needs
six lanes of traffic, I'd argue living on I live right on Carol, that it never has bad
traffic that necessitates six lanes. So anyway, so yeah, so I asked that's my basic concern
I had with that is that I don't think that those streets are very safe to be this close
to our core where you have more pedestrians and cyclists. And so are there options that
we can look at in the short and long term to address those? So yeah, I would love to
see some kind of report on that if possible. Okay, and I think that probably goes with
the second item is hawk signals for pedestrian crossing on Carol in long stretches. So that
would be similar to that common is not only a pedestrian but bicycle type mobility concern.
So understand that. The third item is hawk signals for pedestrian crossing on Teasley
between Hobson and Londonderry. And I know that there's some tech stock coordination
that's currently going on with that. And I also know that's one that has recently come
up in some discussions with our parks department and something that we are actually looking
into. So I think that one's kind of already in the works. And as soon as we have some
more information, I also believe that was part of a recent Friday report, but we are
definitely that one's something that we're aware of. Commissioner Thurman, I see bike
box at Oak at Locust and then Hickory at Carol. I'm not sure if you've received any updates
on that, sir. No, I haven't. And I just still think that adding some bike boxes downtown
is a good starting point to start teaching some of our motorists and citizens about this.
And the thing about, you know, when I ride my bike up Oak and hit Locust there, you know,
it's still a little bit on an incline, but the bike route ends right there at that intersection.
And so you have to merge with traffic. And by having a bike box there, I know it's a
little tight with the sidewalk and the crossing there, but something like that would, I think
would benefit. Okay, thank you for that. Becky, I'll add, I actually looking at this, it seems
like items one through seven are very closely related to each other, right? I mean, what
we're looking at is what would make these streets safer. They include bike boxes, they
include hawk signals on core streets. Now, the only thing is, I think item, let's see,
we do bring up Locust also, which may not, those are included in the original streets,
but I think these could be rewritten as one, if you wanted to, for ease that we could get
a report on, and please let me know commission if I'm correct on these, but that we're looking
for ways to enhance pedestrians and bicycle safety on core streets, especially ones that
have high speeds with solutions like bike boxes, with solutions like hawk signals. If
that could be, maybe we could reduce that to one thing that could then be reported back
on that would help ease the matrix and move us forward. Sure. I think that makes sense.
And I think Commissioner Stamp will be happy to know his comment that he just recently
made is also on the matrix about McKinney Street. So sir, I see your comment. So I think
that's apparent and it appears that a lot of this is kind of in the downtown area, but
then also kind of those common core, oh, Kickery, Carroll, McKinney type roadways. So definitely
appreciate that. So we'll go through and kind of look at those one through seven and see
how we can consolidate that number eight actually says construction signage for lane closures,
walking sidewalks for street construction projects. I think that's kind of an ongoing
situation that we have that we are addressing as those types of things arrive, but then
also discussing with our inspections department and other folks. I know that's something that
as it comes up, obviously we're addressing as quickly as we possibly can. Is there something
else with that particular question that I might not be aware of? That's me too. In short,
I would love to know, is there a policy in place? I don't know if there is. Is there
a policy in place that indicates to staff who are the ones putting up the construction
signs in roadways to try to reduce blocking pedestrian access on sidewalks when possible,
right? And I don't even know if when possible, it seems like it's always a problem that they,
and it's still coming up. I run around in the core and just very frequently that, you
know, we have three lanes of traffic and one of them are closed. And then we block the
sidewalk saying that the one lane of traffic is closed. So if that makes sense. So to me,
what we need is a city policy on this that is directly goes to the people who put the
signs up. So I don't know if that's something city council would pass or if something that's
something that could just be put forward. But I guess, so I guess what I would like
to know is can we, if there's not already a policy, can that become a policy? And then
in cases of violation, can we know clearly who we can let know and communicate that this
is being violated still. So does that make sense? No, that makes complete sense. I think
really it's a traffic control perspective, also a, you know, really just a public works
inspection type scenario, something that we could probably not only teach our internal
folks that are doing construction, but then also our contractors and maybe make it a part
of our standard pre-construction scenario so that if the sidewalk needs to be blocked
for a reason, then there's the why behind it is easily understood versus just assuming
that you're blocking the roadway and the sidewalk. So I understand that pedestrian traffic is
still important. So let us think through what's the best way to address that. It seems to
me that it could just be a, at this point, maybe just a process that we do a little bit
of education to all the folks that are involved so they can understand from a public works
and then also, you know, a construction crew, internal crew type scenario and then a public
works inspection and also work with our building inspections department. So I understand where
you're going with that comment. That's fabulous. The bike ballards on Hickory, I do believe
and luckily I have Danny here. I do believe the bike ballards on Hickory was due to the
spacing and that cars could actually park in between those bike ballards. And I think
that that has been addressed. I believe that's what that comment is. I know we were looking
at installing some additional ones and then I know we were possibly needing to purchase
some additional bicycle ballards. Danny, and of course I'm putting you on the spot, but
do you have any updates for that one? If not, then we can definitely bring that back.
I will have to follow up on that exact one. I know we placed an order to get some more
ballards just recently. So I'll confirm if we had enough in stock to finish that or we
were going to have to get more for that. Perfect. So we can look into that one, that common
speed limit messages also within that one through seven we've already discussed. There
was a, I guess, a portion of sidewalk that was missing crosswalk sidewalk connection
near Barley and board, which that's kind of also within that one through seven. Also,
it's that area kind of around the downtown and then a faded crosswalk. So that's definitely
one we can look into. That's at Bolivar and McKinney. And that's something that we can
look into with Danny's team and traffic operations. I think that was one that you mentioned was
fading and was there a way that it could be restriped if it was going to be put back?
We'll have to look into the logistics behind that one. So those make sense. I think the
policy on that one is that they were going to take it away, which is kind of the opposite
of I think what we need to be happening, right? So because my wife reported that because she
almost got hit by a car there and they said, we're sorry, the faded crosswalk is there.
We're trying to get rid of it so people don't cross anymore, which is feels like the wrong
answer because it's a Bolivar is a good cross street for I think a lot of people going downtown.
So so yeah, by the way, and I just want to say, Becky, thank you for going through these
and like attending to them. This is this makes me feel really good because I feel like we've
been suggesting some things that we just don't get answers on. And this is a wonderful process.
So thank you for taking the time to go through the Oh, no problem at all. And what I'd like
to do and I appreciate that is take the time to consolidate them and really make sure that
they're kind of in the order. And the information makes sense. It seems like maybe the list
of 12 might be more like three or four, if we consolidate a few of those. And so then
we can bring those back to you on specific timeframes. Sometimes it's difficult to bring
it back exactly the next month, just to due to the fact that it may take us a little bit
of time to do some research. But I'd like to start marking these off the list and getting
them addressed, or at least bringing you back a report that discuss that as part of our
staff update, just just so that we're being responsive to your request. So I guess with
that the last thing I would ask is there any additional that you wanted to add to the list?
I know I don't have any additions and the other commissioners I don't know if the things
discussed earlier would be considered an addition the issues around McKinney in that area about,
but that's kind of also within the one through seven. Sure, I want to consider that right.
But more specifically, that as we continue to look at that issue, maybe that's something
we'd add to the agenda. So it has a formal place to is looking at pedestrian issues on
McKinney near Frame Street. Sure. And the the Frame Street Oak Street closure, since
it is an item that is going to require your recommendation, we'll bring that back as a
separate item even the next time. And we'll involve folks from our facilities team that
is actually delivering that project along with the police department and work to address
the concerns. We'll also look at the overview of really what are the projects we have planned
for that area so that we can answer the mobility questions that have come about. So I anticipate
and expect that item to stay kind of on its own legs just because it definitely needs
a formal recommendation so that it can move forward to council. We will need to move it
out though because we want to be able to bring it back to you first before we go to council
in April and late April. So that will happen. But I appreciate it. So thank you for taking
the time to go through the agenda with me. I wanted to make sure that I'm being responsive
to your requests and that our team is is looking into all of these different requests that
come through. So I apologize to have to go back a couple of years, but I'm looking for
that knowledge base just so I can make sure I'm understanding. And I do appreciate you
taking the time to listen to me. Thank you. Thank you. And I think with that, if there's
no further business, I think we can this meeting can be adjourned.