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 All right. Good afternoon. It's called the Thursday, March 25th, 2021 session meeting

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 of the Civil Service Commission to Order at 3 31. Welcome to everyone. We have lots of

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 with some guests, but most of all we have the stars of the day, which are the appellants.

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 So plus, I think we probably need to take a second and welcome our newest commissioner

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 at this particular time, Jamie Blanton. Jamie, we're wonderfully happy to have you along

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 with us. It's a fun ride. You'll enjoy yourself. So happy to be here and happy to be serving

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 the city in this way. Well, thank you very much. We appreciate it. So, okay. She's not

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 really a guest, but since since we're introducing people, um, next order of business is receiving

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 public comments. I understand we have no public comments, so we'll move right on. Next order

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 of business is the approval of the minutes of the February 26th meeting, which is kind

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 of an interesting situation in that Mr. Baines wasn't here and Lillian is not here. So, um,

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 I looked at the minutes. They looked fine. So I would entertain a motion that we approve

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 the minutes, unless anyone, I first have to do that. So I'd entertain a motion that we

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 approve the minutes. I move that we approve the minutes. Second. I'm willing to second

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 that motion. This month's minutes. Now, are there any discussions? I wasn't there, so

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 I can't discuss. I looked it over. I did not see anything. I probably missed a date or

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 two like we did on the last one, but nothing, nothing substantive that I saw. So, um, all

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 in favor of approval of minutes, say aye. Aye. Opposed. Next order of business is consider

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 and hold discussion, take action on the temporary vice chair. John keeps moving around on me.

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 He's trying to hide, I think. So, um, John, Jamie, would you like to do it? I mean, hopefully

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 I'll be happy to move that John Baines be named our vice chair. I'll second that motion.

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 Thank you. I did have a little discussion, Darryl. I guess I didn't realize is Lillian

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 not going to be with us anymore? Not for a while. Stephanie, do you want to? So for a

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 period of several months, I'll be standing in her place. Okay. So you're stuck with me

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 until she is able to return. Okay. All right. So at least we have some, some, what's that,

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 three in one oil. So if we're stuck, we can move a little bit. Is that okay? Exactly.

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 Jamie, are you old enough to know about three in one oil? Yes sir. Plus my husband owns

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 an automotive business, so I know lots of things that maybe I don't look like I should

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 know. Well, good deal. Good deal. And Jamie, you and I served together on the, on the police

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 commission. So I feel like that experience is what led me here. So I don't know if I

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 should feel sorry or happy, but here we are nonetheless. Regardless, my motion still stands.

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 So I would like to repeat my motion that commissioner Baines be selected as our temporary vice chair.

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 And I seconded it. So if there's no further discussion, I'll say aye. Aye. Aye. There

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 is no. Next is the certification to consider and take action on the certification list

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 for a police lieutenant. You received that list in your agenda. I would, I would entertain

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 a motion that we approve the, that we approve that list. Mr. Chairman, I do have a request

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 please. Yes, sir. I don't, I, I lost my computer with everything on it. So I'm at someone else's

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 computer. Is it possible to, to have the, the screen share put in place so I could take

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 a look at the document? I'm happy to pull it up here if I have the capability to do

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 so. Crystal's probably. I'll get with DTV real quick. I have to make me a host. Hang

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 on just a second. Yes. I have to work with DTV on it. Okay. Who's on for police? Where's

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 the, where's the police representative? There he is. Michael. Yes, sir. You're not driving,

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 are you? I'm at the range, but I am sitting in the, in the car. Oh, okay. I'll let you

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 kind of talk us through this one. When, hopefully when Crystal gets that information up. I mean,

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 I have a question. So it looks, it looks very strange.

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 So I get my new sound card tomorrow for my computer. But in the meantime, I'm in a different

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 room in a different part of the office. So please forgive me for being a little bit ill

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 prepared here. I have perhaps what I hope would be an introductory question. Would that

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 be okay? Or I, this is my first meeting. So you guys will have to tell me if there's a

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 Robert's rules of order or something I need to follow about my questions. I think we can

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 probably go ahead and table this, this part of them and for just for a second, Jamie let

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 you ask your question. So go ahead, even though my question is, um, what is the maximum possible

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 score for this particular exam and certification? Michael, would you want to handle your, uh,

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 yes sir. 210, um, a hundred points for the written exam, 55 for the research project

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 and 55 for the oral presentation of that research project. So 110 from the research project

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 and a hundred from the written test. Okay. So if I'm reading this report correctly,

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 just so that I make sure that I'm following along under the exam point score, that's eight,

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 these scores are out of a hundred and then out of the project scores, those are out of

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 110. Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. Okay. Thank you so much. Any other questions?

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 Yes, I did. I did have a question as well, uh, uh, Mr. Chair. So I do know that in the

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 past they've indicated that on the lieutenants, the, uh, captains and, and the higher ups

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 that you have a little more cognitive thinking rather than just test taking, there's some

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 other things they look at. And so that's the project. Is it not where they're asking

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 for a little more to kind of demonstrate your skillset, uh, beyond simply test taking? Is

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 that correct? Yes, sir. That's correct. Okay. All right. That's, I just wanted to make sure.

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 Thank you. And what is the minimum total score to be able to be certified? They have to have

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 passed the written exam with a 70 to go on and do the research project. Those are all

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 my questions, Mr. Chair. I would, I would entertain a motion that we accept, um, approve.

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 I'm sorry. The lieutenant certification. I'll second. Now, is there any other discussion?

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 Got it. The cart before the horse, but that's okay. Any discussion? I think I've discussed

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 already. All right. All in favor of approval of the police lieutenant certification list,

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 say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion passes. Certification list is approved. Next to order

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 of business is the fire battalion chief. Um, what is this? An eligibility list. So crystal,

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 can you get that one up for us? Yes. Who's representing fire today? Dr. Ramsey.

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 Oh, there you are. You got lost in the screen share. So there you go. Thanks, Mike. Yes,

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 sir. Talk to us a little bit. Tell us about it. Sir. So this is typically, um, if someone

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 doesn't show up or doesn't take the test, then we don't leave them on there. Um, but

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 we wanted to leave them there. There were three candidates that, um, submitted their

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 intent to take the test. Only one of those showed up and took the test. Megan, she, um,

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 she did pass. So her score is listed there. The other two, uh, were the, the members that

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 filled out intent forms, but they did not show up for the test. Okay. That explains

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 the zeros. Yes, sir. We just wanted to, um, make sure you know that we satisfy the, uh,

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 communications rules that says you have to, there must be a minimum of two completed notices

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 of intent forms for a promotional examination to be administered. Okay. I apologize. Hang

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 on. I would entertain a motion that we, uh, approve the battalion fire battalion chief

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 eligibility list. So moved. I'll second. Now we have questions. I just have a point of

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 clarification that, uh, even though the other two individuals are listed here on the document,

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 only the one that completed the examination is actually being promoted. Is that correct?

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 Well, it's, um, an eligibility list. So we currently have no battalion chief vacancies.

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 So, um, we, according to civil service, we must maintain eligibility list for all ranks.

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 So she will remain on the eligibility list until the vacancy, if and when a vacancy occurs

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 and then she would be promoted. But yes, she, she, she'll be the only one that remains on

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 the eligibility list. Mike, when, when are the plans to, uh, administer another test?

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 Our professional exams are as our entrance exams are given once a year, every month.

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 That's a, that's a, I realize it's a, it's a small number of people, but that's a small

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 list too. Yes, sir. So, uh, uh, officer Holesclaw, um, what's the game plan for, uh, expanding

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 the department? Where, where are we in that in our plan and, and what are we looking at

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 as far as a timetable? Considering battalion chief promotions? Well, just in general, you

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 know, are we looking to, to, what's, what's kind of our growth plan? Do we kind of have

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 an idea that we will be probably eligible for another battalion commander with no retirements

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 within the next five years or would it be sooner than that? It's not expected. Um, Chief

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 Hedges is online. If I may allow him to expand on that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. This

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 is Chief Hedges. Yes. Well, last year we actually promoted three battalion chiefs. So that's

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 actually the most battalion chief we've ever promoted since 1996. So we actually enacted

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 a second battalion. So we don't foresee any future battalion chief creation on positions.

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 It will only be based on retirements. And one thing I want to comment is our department

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 over the past five to eight years, we've really transitioned to a younger department. So we've

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 had this internal discussions. It's like, how do we promote people to take a battalion

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 chief test? We've really got two different groups of people right now. We have captains

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 that are old school that have eight plus years as a captain rank. And then we have another

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 group that's like captains that have four to five years and they're wanting more experience

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 in their captain's role. And the older captains are kind of, well, I'm tenured. I don't really

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 want to change my work description, possibly my work schedule, start all over from scratch

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 and start a new job. So we kind of have this middle area, this career right now that we're

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 trying to figure out how can we get more people interested in taking the test. So as far as

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 future plans the next five years, I don't foresee us adding another battalion chief

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 as a new FTE in that timeframe. It'll just be based on retirements.

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 Currently, how many battalion chiefs do we have?

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 Currently, we have six in operations. Then we have five in administration.

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 Thank you very much. Based on the challenges that you just described

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 would help me to understand why you have some individuals listed here that might have opted

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 not to take the exam if they knew sort of that there aren't going to be vacancies and

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 some of the other challenges that you described. So what is the plan or what resources would

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 be needed to help kind of continue to motivate folks within the department to pursue promotion

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 and growth within our own department rather than transfer or get jobs in other departments

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 elsewhere in our community? Well, you know, we don't really have an issue

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 on personal retention. I mean, that's a good thing. They stay here at a full 25, 30, 40

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 years, honestly. It's just how we get them to move up from rank to rank. And one thing

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 we're actually starting is professional development and succession planning. So we're actually

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 taking captains. COVID has really been the key to this, and we're actually bringing them

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 in and shadowing battalion chiefs so they see actually what the job is. So they understand

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 aspects of the job. It's not just, you know, hidden agenda. What does that person actually

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 do? You know, there's always a disconnect between operations and administration over

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 what roles each play as well. So if we bring captains alongside battalion chiefs for like,

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 you know, a week and they see the meetings they have to do and the new requirements as

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 far as managing programs and resources to support operations, it kind of brings that

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 awareness. And, you know, really, honestly, we've put a lot of thought into this is just,

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 I don't know how at this point we get people to show up and take the test. It's just people

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 are comfortable in their job, which that's actually to me, that's a positive thing. You

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 know, if they're comfortable where they're at, that means something's going good. Some

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 people just, they don't have aspirations to move further up in the department. And I was

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 actually looking at our pay scale and it's adjusted annually by a new conferred agreement.

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 But the difference between a captain and a battalion chief pay is only 16 to 18,000 from

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 minimum to maximum. So some people can still work that shift schedule as a captain, work

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 24 on, 48 off, they can still work as side job. So they could potentially make more money

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 remaining a captain as well. So there's a lot of different hurdles we're going to have

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 to look at and come up with maybe creative solutions.

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 And this is not a new problem. Or it's not a new phenomenon was there may be a problem

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 now, but it's not a new phenomenon. It's been it's been going on for 20 years or more.

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 So yes, sir, you're correct. People know whenever we're gonna have promotions, and you'll have

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 more people take the test. I think last year we had five people take the VCs test and out

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 of those five we promoted. So we just exhausted most of those people they were wanting to

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 promote at that time. So yes, it's a very common thing that's been around for years

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 and you know, I just don't have a easy fix at this point, it's gonna be a multi multifaceted

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 solution we can't come up with one.

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 Alright, any other questions? Motion to approve is on the floor. So all in favor of approval

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 of the battalion chief eligibility list say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. No opposition. Motion carries.

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 Okay, now we're ready for the for the big show.

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 Well, hanging around and staying with us. So first, we'll do the first and the next

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 order of business is the captain's appeal. So we'll do the captain's appeals will remind

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 you the procedure of the appellants will have an opportunity to present their appeal to

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 us. Remember, appellants that we have seen the your written appeals without your name

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 on them, and had a chance to kind of look at the materials, we have the materials with

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 us. So in your presentation, be relatively brief. In the situations where there are multiple

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 appellants. The second third appellants, I would ask you to not reiterate as so much

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 the things that have already been said. But if you have new information to add to the

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 to the mix, I welcome that we I we welcome that. So I don't want anyone to feel as though

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 they didn't get their appeal heard. But we don't need to hear the same the same story

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 three times we what we want to hear is a complete picture from two or three of you at a time.

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 After the appeal, there'll be a chance for after the appellant presents appellant or

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 appellants present their case. We will there will be a time for the commission to ask questions

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 of the appellant. At that point, we'll at the end of that, we'll go forward with the

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 fire response, which again, we've all seen. I assume that the appellants have also seen

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 those responses now. Is that true? Michael, if they found them on the agenda. Okay, all

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 right. And then after after a fire gets their opportunity, be questions and then the then

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 if I'm lucky and somebody reminds me, we'll ask if there is anyone who would like to speak

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 in opposition to the appeal. And then commission, we will move forward with motions and discussion

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 and finally make a decision on on each appeal. So that's the procedure. Again, we'd like

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 to keep it as brief as possible. But those of you that have done this before know that

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 I I personally want to make sure that you walk walk out of the room at least sign off

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 on zoom feeling like you got a chance to say what you needed to say for the commission

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 to consider. But again, if we can keep it brief, unless we're going to send send out

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 for breakfast in the morning, we can maybe move move forward. So being said, did I leave

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 anything out Stephanie? No, you covered everything. Okay. Maybe you can be the one to remind me

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 that I'm supposed to ask for the opposition. I always forget that part. First appeal and

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 captain's appeals is item number two. Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Can you guys hear me? Yes,

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 sir. Okay. First off, I want to thank you guys for being here today and taking the time

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 to go over the stuff with us. I know that's a big commitment on your part, but I appreciate

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 that as well from y'all. They did. You guys do have a copy of my appeal. You've seen what

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 I have written. And the reason that I have killed this question is because the question

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 on the test leaves out one important descriptor that was listed in the book that separates

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 a smoke explosion from a flash over. So smoke explosion is the key to answer on the test,

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 which is B. And I selected a flash over as the answer on my test. Um, like I wrote in

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 my appeal, the key term is under smoke explosion. It states that smoke that is being trapped

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 in a separate space and that separate space is the key thing here above the fire. It also

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 has in the section on page 85 right above that table that smoke explosions typically

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 occur in a trapped smoke area away from the fire. So all three of the things that it lists

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 in the question on the test can happen in a flash over as well without it being in a

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 separate room. So if you put separate in there, it definitely delineates between smoke explosion

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 and flash over. But if you leave that away or separate from all three of the things on

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 the test and the question can be construed to make you think flash over is an appropriate

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 answer as well. All right. Thank you Mr. Johnson. Questions of the appellant. Mr. Chair, my

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 books are in the next room. Excuse me for a minute. I'm going to get the books back.

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 I have the, I have my excerpts, but I don't have the books. So, I'll be back in a second.

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 I'll be back in a second.

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 Excuse me, Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Give me your page reference again, please. It is page

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 85. Some of the information is found in table 6-2 at the bottom and then also under that

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 heading of smoke explosion right above that same table. Okay. So when I looked at your,

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 at the question. Yes, sir. Let's, let's look at the components of the question. It says

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 while evaluating the conditions, you observe that, excuse me, you observe smoke that is

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 trapped above the fire. Yes, sir. Signs of growing fire. Signs of smoke starting to pressurize.

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 So when you go to the table, those three are specifically listed as associated with smoke

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 explosion. That's true. I do concede that. And I understand that. Okay. So explain to

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 me how then, you know, there's always a good answer and there's the best answer. So, right.

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 I understand. To your answer as the best answer. Okay. So also, if you look under flash over

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 in that same table on the first one, it says turbulent smoke that has filled a compartment.

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 So obviously if it fills a compartment, it's above the fire as well. So that takes it.

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 I see. If you go to signs of a growing fire, it says rapid change in smoke volume and velocity.

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 The only way that you get rapid changes in smoke volume and velocity is with a fire that

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 is growing and starting to get larger and produce more turbulent smoke. Okay. So that

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 takes care of number two as well. And then number three, the smoke starting to pressurize

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 also falls under that first one that I said, and the one that I just listed, the turbulent

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 smoke flow that has filled a compartment and the rapid change in smoke volume and velocity.

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 So all three of those can be seen in the flash over definition as well. Is it word for word?

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 Not as much as smoke explosion, but it's still, you can gather all three of those things from

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 a flash over as well from that table. And the one key descriptor that separates smoke

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 explosion from a flash over is that it's in a separate space away from the original fire

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 or compartment that the fire is growing in. And that's listed in the paragraph above at

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 the bottom of the smoke explosion section, where it says smoke explosions typically occur

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 in a trapped smoke area away from the fire, such as a dead end hallway, the top of a stairwell

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 or an uninvolved room above the fire or void space. It also lists that in the section down

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 in that table, the smoke explosion, where it says, let me find it. That is smoke that

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 is being trapped in a separate space above the fire. So that separate space and the away

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 from are the two things that I feel left out can lead someone to believe that flash over

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 is an appropriate answer as well. I will say, Mr. Johnson, rather than being

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 specific, yours was interpretive. Yes, sir, it was. It was more just knowing

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 what fire is and the different components of it and how it acts and putting all those

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 things together. Is it word from word, word for word from the book for smoke explosion?

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 It is in that table. However, I've done this long enough and been around long enough that

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 I know that, you know, sometimes interpretive data is allowed to be taken as well.

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 So point well taken. Thank you. Thank you. My question is that you made the comment that

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 buildup of smoke is a sign of a growing fire. Wouldn't a continuous steady stream of smoke

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 continue to have the same buildup? Would it not necessarily be an explosion of the fire

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 or smoke is smoke is going to be present from any fire? It's the turbulence or velocity

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 with which that smoke is pressurizing that separate separates a growing fire from one

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00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:25,120
 that may be just smoldering and the turbulent smoke flow under flash over and the rapid

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 change in smoke volume and velocity leads you to know that that fire is growing because

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 yes, all fires, even ones that are in the in stages will have some smoke production,

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 but it's the turbulent and the change in volume and velocity that signify a growing fire.

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 Any other questions for the appellant? I do not have my one question is about the above

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00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:59,200
 the fire. So when I was reading the your response and also sort of this section that talks about

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 this specific piece, when I read it, and again, you're the expert, not me, but when I read

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 it the being the above the fire was only described for smoke explosion. But when you were speaking

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 with us just now, you said that it's also part of a flash over as well. So could you

255
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,960
 help me understand that with a little bit more clarity because that's not what I read

256
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 in the book. Are you referencing table six to under the smoke explosion? Is that where

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 you're referencing? Yeah, for the above being above the fire specifically. Yes, ma'am. Well,

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 I guess I'm not real sure exactly what your question is, but I can try to answer it as

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 good as I can. So obviously, any room where a fire is growing, there's an area above the

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 fire above the fire, but below the ceiling. So you do have an area above the fire, obviously,

261
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,940
 even in one compartment. But it's the separate space that it talks about under smoke explosion,

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 the separate space. And what you read from the paragraph above talks about two different

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 areas, not necessarily the same room. But it says such as a dead end hallway, top of

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 the stairwell, or an uninvolved room above the fire. So there's that same area above

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 a fire, even in one compartment or one room. But then the smoke explosion definition of

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 the book talks about separate spaces completely. So the primary crux of your argument then

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 is that this particular question does not reference the separate space. That's what

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00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,760
 my appeal was yesterday. That was my appeal, that it left out the away from or separate

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00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:42,760
 from was my appeal basically to the question. Okay, but you would agree based on the question

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 that a smoke explosion is smoke being trapped above the fire, has signs of a growing fire,

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 and has signs that the smoke is starting to pressurize. So the three elements that are

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 listed in the question, you agree that those are true of a smoke explosion, right?

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00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:08,520
 Yes, ma'am. I agree completely. I mentioned that. I'm not sure if you heard, but did mention

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 that I agree with the question stating under the smoke explosion in the book, that table,

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 it meets all three of those criteria. However, it also meets flat without that away from

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 it. Thank you. Mr. Johnson, kind of continuing on that. Are you referencing that paragraph

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 above the table on 85? Yes, sir. It's that one that says smoke explosion. Okay. So even

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 though it says smoke explosion, you're kind of attributing it to the flash over. Well,

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 what I'm saying is that under the definition of smoke explosion, it says that that occurs

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 in an area generally away from the fire, which separates smoke explosion from other events

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 such as a flash over. And that without that away from as designated in the smoke explosion

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 section, it could be construed as flash over as well. Okay. All right. Hopefully, however,

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 that language is under the description of smoke explosion. Yes, sir. It is. I can't

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00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:24,520
 deny that. Okay. And then when we go to the next page, we go to flash over. And as I've

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 told others, I'm a CPA, I'm an accountant, I don't do fire for a living, but I'm trying

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 to interpret and I'm trying to be sensitive. At the same time, if you go to the next page

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 on 86, under flash over, I don't think there's as much interpretation there. Well, if you're

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 talking about interpretation as far as what the table lists on 62, what the paragraph

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 on fire or a flash over states and what the table lists are different things. Yes, sir.

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00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,200
 It doesn't have the same information in that paragraph on flash over as it has in the table

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 under flash over that correlates the two activities, if that's what you're asking. Yes, sir. Okay.

292
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:20,840
 All right. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Ramsey. Fire response. Yes, sir. The department's

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00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:26,960
 recommendation is to sustain the key. Well, the appellant is accurate in the fact that

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 the question does not contain in a separate space as quoted in the book. The remainder

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00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:39,640
 of the question is word for word. The question does contain above the fire. And if you understand

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 the warning signs for a smoke explosion and those for a flash over as stated in the book,

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00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:51,760
 then answer B is clearly the one best answer. I will try to clear up some of the discussion

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 that y'all have had regarding smoke that's being trapped, which is a sign of smoke explosion.

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 That smoke that has to be trapped in an area of space, wherever it may be, that's below

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 its ignition point. So it's not going to auto ignite without help from fire, a spark or

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00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:22,720
 something being introduced into that space. The turbulent smoke from a flash over, if

302
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:31,260
 you want to see that, flip the page to page 87 and look at figure 6.5. That's turbulent

303
00:36:31,260 --> 00:36:39,960
 smoke coming from what obviously that room or that entire structure is full of smoke,

304
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 but that is turbulent smoke. And that's what a building looks like that is nearing flash

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 over. Hopefully that helps. >> Okay. Any other questions for fire? Hearing

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 none. Does anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal? Hearing none, I would entertain

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00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:35,560
 a motion from the commission. >> My motion is to sustain the key, Mr. Chair.

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00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,960
 >> Is there a second? I'll second it just for discussion sake.

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00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:49,040
 >> Thank you. >> Now, any discussion? Hearing none, all in

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00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:56,400
 favor, are we ready to vote? All in favor of sustaining the key for number two, say aye.

311
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:18,120
 >> Aye. >> Opposed? Number two, we sustain the key. All right. Next is question number

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00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:27,280
 five. And Mr. Galbraith, where are you? There you are.

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00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:37,160
 >> I'm trying to get my speaker working, Mr. Ramsey. Stand by.

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00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:42,960
 >> The story of my day, I'm with you, I understand. >> I got it. We're all working now.

315
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:51,960
 >> All right. Let's see now. That's incident safety.

316
00:38:51,960 --> 00:39:03,360
 >> Yes, sir. >> Where is incident safety? Okay.

317
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:13,960
 >> You ready? >> Do your thing. Yes, sir.

318
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:20,040
 >> Well, within the question, the question is stated, it's talking about risk benefit

319
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,800
 evaluations are paramount when forming ISO functions at the high angle incident risk,

320
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:33,080
 at the high angle incident. The key question that they wanted is going to be risk benefit

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00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:39,880
 evaluations. I think that there's definitely two answers to this question, just due to

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00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:47,760
 the technicalities. If you read in this specific chapter alone that the first five or so pages,

323
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:54,400
 if you look to the first page, it starts on 217. If you go down to the -- on that page

324
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 down towards the bottom, just in the little writing, it's discussing the application of

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 special knowledge, skills, and equipment to safety, resolve unique and complex rescue

326
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:13,000
 -- to safety resolve unique and/or complex rescue situations. Then it goes on to talk

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 about complex incidents requiring specialized trained personnel and equipment to complete

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 the mission. So what the ambiguity of this question is, it's -- to ask this question

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00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:35,880
 and just have risk benefit as the key component of the incident safety officer function in

330
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:44,160
 a technical rescue situation, such as rope rescue, you have to have education and experience

331
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 to perform the function. So if you go to 218, page 218, middle of the page, when the ISO

332
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:59,800
 safety officer does not have the technician-level training and/or certification, then you must

333
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:08,520
 have what they call an ASORT, which is an assistant safety officer, rescue tech. That's

334
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:15,160
 what that RT stands for, which is more training and experience. You have to have them there

335
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:24,760
 now, along with the ISO, to perform the stated question, which is high-angle rescue. And

336
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 then 221, in the middle of that, table 15-1, if you go down, that's a sample of technical

337
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 rescue categories and associated documents. Basically, what this is just telling you is

338
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:46,280
 pretty much reiterating, again, the need to have technical specialization, education and

339
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:52,680
 experience to perform the function. So with that being said, I think that definitely risk

340
00:41:52,680 --> 00:42:01,080
 benefit has to be, you know, a component of performing incident safety officer functions

341
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:09,560
 within a high-angle rescue. But also, more importantly, according to how this book is

342
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,520
 and reading the book and studying the book and answering this question, you also have

343
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 to have somebody who is educated and experienced to even get to risk benefit. Period.

344
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:48,840
 Questions of the appellant? My question would be, who ultimately makes a decision? The assistant

345
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:58,200
 safety officer or the safety officer? Makes a decision for what, sir? Whatever the situation

346
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:09,160
 is, as far as ISO functions, a high-angle incident. It would be the incident... I'm sorry,

347
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:17,080
 you cut out. No, I was just adding the rest of the question to it. I got you. Well, it's

348
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,800
 specifically within the question talking about the incident safety officer who is going to be

349
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:29,720
 pretty much the overseer of a high-angle incident. But he needs to have, make sure that there is

350
00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:37,800
 education and experience there to perform the task. So that has to be in place before you even,

351
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,440
 you can't just have somebody who's, well, you know, I think I can do this. You have to have

352
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:49,640
 somebody who is educated and who has experience to perform the function of a high-angle rescue.

353
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:57,640
 But to answer your question, it's the incident safety officer who has to have, he's the authority

354
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:05,960
 of making sure that that is done safely. And he has the right people in position to perform it

355
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 effectively and of course, safely. Okay. That being said, what is the paramount function of the ISO

356
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:23,160
 in that situation? Getting the right people and then the...

357
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:36,680
 I feel, am I getting another question? Yep.

358
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:48,520
 Ultimately, the ISO has to make the decision. They get all the input. What is the criteria that they

359
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:58,040
 use that's paramount for all functions at the high-angle incident? What does the ISO have to

360
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:06,840
 consider primarily, paramount? Well, I mean, it has to be risk benefit along with what he has,

361
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:15,080
 what is needed to perform the function in my mind. Okay. I'm done.

362
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:23,400
 So I have a question along the same line. My question is, let's assume that everyone involved,

363
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:31,080
 that you're working the incident with, has the same or similar education and training.

364
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:41,880
 If that was true, how is the ISO functioning differently than the other members of the team?

365
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:56,760
 It's just difficult to hear you. I'm sorry. So you're asking me what is different in this situation?

366
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:05,160
 So in a high-angle incident, if everyone involved has similar education and experience,

367
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:12,600
 what is the ISO's role? Just to oversee the incident. Yes, ma'am. To oversee the incident,

368
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:22,040
 make sure that everybody is functioning safely and making the right decisions.

369
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:29,720
 Thank you. Are there questions for Mr. Galbraith?

370
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:35,160
 Yes and no. I have kind of a question slash comment.

371
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:43,480
 How are you doing, Mr. Galbraith? Oh, doing great. Doing great. Good to see you. Good to see you.

372
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:55,800
 You know, if you were just to ask me off the cuff in evaluating

373
00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:04,280
 situations, what might be the most important, I could probably off the cuff say education

374
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:17,160
 and experience. Okay. But when I go to the book and on page, what, 225, it makes that statement

375
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:24,680
 underneath that table. It says risk benefit evaluations are paramount when performing ISO

376
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:32,760
 functions at the high-angle incident. And that's really the same question there. It's verbatim.

377
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:39,480
 So I know that education and experience are important

378
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:50,120
 and that's going to prepare you to think clearly and properly in a high-risk situation.

379
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:59,080
 But specifically, I think the question was, you know, basically a verbatim quote. What words do

380
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:09,160
 you put into that blank of those four options there as the best answer? Your answer is a good

381
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:17,560
 answer. Education and experience, it handles a lot. But specifically, it says risk benefit

382
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:26,360
 evaluations are paramount. That's a direct verbatim quote. And I think that's kind of what they were

383
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:33,480
 looking for is that once you have all the education experience, then this other piece would be at the

384
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:40,680
 top of your consideration. I think it's both, if I was going to make it up. I appreciate that.

385
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,120
 Thank you. Thank you.

386
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:50,680
 No other questions. Fire response.

387
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:56,120
 The department's response, the department's recommendation is to sustain the key.

388
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:02,280
 The question and answer are word for word from the book. The question is referring specifically

389
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:09,240
 to the high angle incident. The ASORT referred to in the appeal comes from the introduction

390
00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:14,680
 to the chapter and addresses general competencies for the incident safety officer for any type of

391
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:23,800
 technical rescue incident. Answer A is the one best answer. Thank you, Mike. Questions for fire?

392
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:32,520
 I have none. Thank you. All right. Does anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

393
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:40,600
 Commissioner, I'd like to say something real quick. I've appealed this same question before

394
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:48,360
 on previous tests for the exact same reason that Mr. Galbraith appealed his and it was not

395
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:57,160
 overturned at that time either. He was sustained at that time as well. Okay. Thank you.

396
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:12,920
 I would entertain a motion on item question five. I move. So move to sustain. Thank you.

397
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:17,240
 I'll second. Okay. Moved and seconded. Any discussion?

398
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:23,560
 Okay. Just a thank you to Mr. Galbraith for his scholarship. Thank you.

399
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:35,080
 Hearing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? So number five, sustain key.

400
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:47,560
 Next is item 60. Oh, Mr. Galbraith, you're back. You're back without leaving.

401
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,360
 I'm getting better at this computer stuff.

402
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:55,400
 Practice makes perfect.

403
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:07,800
 Out of legal considerations is built on this one. This is item 60.

404
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,360
 Okay. Let me get my notes together from my paralegal.

405
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:37,160
 I just wanted to just, you know, I'm peeling this question just because there's, it's,

406
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:43,960
 when you're lifting questions out of the book, it has to be, I believe that it has to come within

407
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:48,920
 context. And when you're going through six books, memorizing them, you're really trying to,

408
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:54,280
 you know, you're always trying to figure out and look and rack your brain, trying to

409
00:51:54,280 --> 00:52:02,520
 think of triggers that you can obviously answer the most correct, you know, answer for the question.

410
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:11,320
 So within this question, critical to the proper function of the entire judicial system is the,

411
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:19,240
 and the key to answer is C, appellate process. This book, like I was saying, if you, if you read

412
00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:26,200
 what I wrote down, I put the federal court system and throughout the book, throughout this book,

413
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:32,920
 it's a, it's a humdinger of the book, legal considerations of fire emergency, all they really,

414
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:39,480
 they really, really discuss and they go very thoroughly into obviously the different branches

415
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:45,560
 of the government. When they, when it, when it's read, when the question, when I read through the

416
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,960
 question, it says the entire judicial system, I'm going to think the federal court system.

417
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:57,560
 And so just within my notes, you're just finding within the book, page five, go to page five and

418
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:03,480
 you go to the top of the page. It says the United States constitution serves two primary functions.

419
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:09,560
 First, it serves as the supreme law of the land. So when we're talking about, once again, the

420
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:16,600
 legalities and you're talking about the court system, I'm thinking, okay, that's going to be,

421
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:22,360
 you know, that's when I'm reading that question, I'm thinking the federal court system,

422
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:33,960
 supreme court, then you go to page 21. Appellate courts, actually talking about appellate courts

423
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,920
 are where appeals from trial courts are heard. There are two levels of appellate courts in the

424
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:43,240
 federal system, the circuit court of appeals, the United States supreme court, once again,

425
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:51,560
 the federal court system. And then page 32, figure two, six, there's a flow chart and it pretty much

426
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:58,840
 all the courts, appellate courts, including the tax court, district court are all under the flow

427
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:05,560
 chart and at the top is the supreme court of the United States. So this is just another one of those,

428
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:12,040
 you know, with the distractors and everything within that. I'm thinking that the number one

429
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,080
 question to this question is going to be the federal court system.

430
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,240
 Okay. Thank you, sir. Mr. Roberts, do you have anything to add?

431
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:32,120
 Yes, sir. Can you hear me? Yes, sir. Okay. I apologize. I'm out of state and I do not have

432
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:37,240
 my material in front of me, but mine's a little bit different than Mr. Galbraith.

433
00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:43,800
 If you'll refer to page 10, there's a sentence in there and obviously I don't have it directly

434
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:49,000
 in front of me, but it does state that case law is an absolute critical source of law.

435
00:54:49,960 --> 00:55:01,160
 So my answer that I chose was D, knowing that that key term critical and it also states that it is a

436
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:08,200
 absolute critical source of law. That was my choice. I'll keep it as short as possible,

437
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:16,920
 but that's what led me to make my decision. Okay. Thank you, sir. Question of the appellants.

438
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:30,360
 Okay. Going once, going twice.

439
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:39,960
 Not so much as much as a dialogue, Mr. Chair. So, Mr. Galbraith,

440
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:53,320
 can you hear me, sir? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Okay. Good. Good. So I'm going to kind of start with

441
00:55:53,320 --> 00:56:08,520
 the key. The key basically says on page 31, at the very top, it says critical to the proper

442
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:19,640
 functioning of the entire judicial system is the appellate process. So you got here and then you

443
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:27,640
 go to the question and the question is says critical to the proper functioning of the entire

444
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:35,880
 judicial system is the, and the answer there, once again, is the verbatim answer of the appellate

445
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:53,640
 process. The federal courts are an important part, but the ability like today is an appeal, right?

446
00:56:53,640 --> 00:57:02,680
 It's an appeal. So even though we're not in a court necessarily, we do have an appeal here,

447
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:09,400
 and this is kind of critical to this whole thing called the judicial or the system of justice.

448
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:18,520
 So I think the federal court system is a good answer, but I think the best answer

449
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:28,440
 is the appellate process, as mentioned there on page 31. So as I kind of look through things,

450
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:35,800
 that's kind of what I said. You've got all kinds of courts, you know, you've got the city, the county,

451
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:48,120
 the state, the federal, you've got the maritime law, you've got foreign law, and integrated within

452
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:54,440
 all of those judicial processes, you have the appellate process, and I think that was kind of

453
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,480
 the thing that they were looking for. So that was my understanding,

454
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:05,720
 but thank you nonetheless for your response. I think, John, you're absolutely right in both

455
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:15,800
 cases. I think even case law and the federal system all depend on the appellate process.

456
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:22,920
 So they were thinking more specific where the question was more general. It's the process,

457
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:30,200
 whether it's a state court or an appeal for a question or whatever, it's the appeal process.

458
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:33,160
 Fire response.

459
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:40,440
 The department's recommendation is to sustain the key. The question and answer are word for

460
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:46,760
 word from the book. The question refers to the functioning of a system which involves a process,

461
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:51,800
 the appellate process. The book continues to explain the purpose and process of appeals.

462
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:59,560
 The book states previously on page 21, which the first appellant referred to, that all court

463
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:07,560
 systems allow for at least one level of appeals. In the first appeal received, for this question,

464
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:13,160
 the Supreme Court and federal court system are used interchangeably. The federal court system

465
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:19,000
 is made up of much more than just the Supreme Court. The appeal also addresses interpretation

466
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:25,000
 of law and the constitution, which is not the basis of the question. The second appeal refers

467
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:31,000
 to case law as being a critical source of law and states the book implies that case law is critical

468
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:37,160
 to the judicial system. The book clearly states the answer to the question and answer C, the

469
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:47,400
 appellate process is the one best answer. Okay, questions of fire from the commissioners?

470
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,760
 Is there anyone that would like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

471
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:59,800
 I did have a question of fire on this one. How did, how did the field do,

472
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:06,200
 Mr. Holeslaw, on the, on this particular question? What was it?

473
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:16,920
 Four out of ten got the question correct, but there were four got it correct.

474
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:25,800
 There were, there was one A, three Bs,

475
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:31,800
 four Cs and two Bs. So it was kind of all over the place.

476
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:37,480
 So is that indicative, you think, of a clear question and a clear answer,

477
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,400
 or maybe there's some work needed there? Maybe there's some work needed there.

478
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:45,000
 Thank you. Yes, sir.

479
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:50,200
 All right, I would entertain a motion.

480
01:00:50,200 --> 01:01:00,680
 I think before I make a motion, I'd like to make a comment if that's okay.

481
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:07,480
 Jamie, we're supposed to do the motion first, then we can, then we can discuss.

482
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:15,080
 Okay, so I move to sustain for both counts the appeal of question 60.

483
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:22,280
 Okay. Okay, I second. Okay, now discussion.

484
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:26,680
 All right. This is my first meeting. You guys threw me into the fire here, literally.

485
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:33,960
 So I think for me, this question, gentlemen, I really appreciate your appeal.

486
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:38,680
 This, to me, comes down to the best answer and some good answers.

487
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:46,840
 So I think that Commissioner Bain's comments about revising this test question at some point

488
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:53,720
 in the future to make things even more clear is a good one. But I think overall, what I have heard

489
01:01:53,720 --> 01:02:00,760
 feedback-wise today leads me to believe that the best possible answer is the appellate process,

490
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:07,000
 even though there are some other choices here that I think are valuable to the judicial system.

491
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:12,680
 So I appreciate both of you, gentlemen, for bringing it to our attention,

492
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,360
 but I do feel like it's the question that we need to sustain today.

493
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:27,560
 Okay. Any other discussion? All in favor of sustaining the keys, say aye.

494
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:29,480
 Aye.

495
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:30,120
 Aye.

496
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:30,620
 Aye.

497
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:43,640
 No opposition. All right. Next is item 65. We have two appellates, same two appellates on this one.

498
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:52,760
 Let's let Mr. Roberts go first this time.

499
01:02:52,760 --> 01:03:01,720
 Okay. Thank you, sir. As it stated in mine, well, let me go to the question. So the question

500
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:07,560
 just says it's an act. It's not specific to what type of an act. So I believe there are two correct

501
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:17,320
 answers. In mine, there's also what's called a duty to act, which is an act. And those arise

502
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:25,080
 from a statute, I guess, for lack of better terms. The book states both acts, whether affirmative or

503
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:30,040
 failure to act, both voluntarily and by statute. I feel that both of them are correct.

504
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:42,280
 Okay. You're saying that c and d are both correct answers. Is that right?

505
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:44,520
 Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I apologize. I left that out.

506
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:54,840
 Okay. That's fine. That's fine. That's my job. Clarify. Make sure. Okay. Mr. Galbraith.

507
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:05,800
 I know y'all miss me. So this is just another, it's just another one, you know,

508
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:15,080
 tough question, tough answers. And so within this question, an act, whether affirmative

509
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:22,360
 or a failure to act must be voluntary in nature. If you go to the next page underneath the gray

510
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:29,400
 box, a duty to act may also arise when a, where a statute imposes a duty to act.

511
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:37,160
 So it's, once again, it's, it's in the context of the question. The question is

512
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:45,560
 voluntary in nature and a statute. So this is where it becomes, when you're taking the test,

513
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:49,480
 like I said, and you're going through six books, you're really trying to, what is the, you know,

514
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:56,840
 what's my best answer? Like Ms. Blanton says. And so this right here gives you both scenarios. You

515
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:02,360
 have a statute, which is a duty to act. And then you also have, it has to be voluntary in nature.

516
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:12,600
 So it's, I believe both answers are correct. Totally correct.

517
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:17,080
 Mr. Galbraith, can you give me that reference again, please? Your reference webpage.

518
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:24,120
 Next page over Mr. Baines on right underneath sidebar, the sidebar gray box.

519
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:27,240
 The page number?

520
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:29,320
 Ninety-five.

521
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:39,240
 Ninety-five. Okay. Thank you.

522
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:56,040
 Would you, would you indulge me Mr. Galbraith and give me your explanation again, please,

523
01:05:56,040 --> 01:06:01,800
 as to why you believe there's an additional answer or a different, a more correct answer.

524
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:08,440
 The question is an act, whether affirmative or a failure to act must be voluntary in nature.

525
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:15,560
 The key question they want is voluntary in nature. If you go to 95 where, where I referenced you,

526
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:20,680
 a duty to act may also arise where a statute imposes a duty to act.

527
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:35,080
 So voluntary in nature and also the act in some form, according to this book and to this text,

528
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:36,920
 there's also a statute to act.

529
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,560
 Okay. Let me ask you a question, Brandon.

530
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,760
 I'm ready.

531
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:58,280
 You're driving along the highway here in Denton, speed limit 65 and you're going 75.

532
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:06,040
 Policeman, you drive by a policeman and the policeman decides that they're not going to

533
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:12,680
 pull you over in this particular incident, instance and let you go.

534
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:20,360
 Was that compelled by a statute or was it voluntary in nature?

535
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:23,000
 My act or his act?

536
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:23,500
 His.

537
01:07:23,500 --> 01:07:28,360
 He's by statute because he's a peace officer, has to act.

538
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:37,880
 But he didn't. He voluntarily chose not to in that particular case in the circumstances.

539
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:44,040
 Absolutely. He's also a sworn peace officer. So he's under statute to act.

540
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:46,140
 Okay.

541
01:07:46,140 --> 01:07:53,080
 But again, but he chose not to. So it's all voluntary.

542
01:07:53,080 --> 01:08:02,120
 You voluntarily chose to speed and luckily he voluntarily chose not to give you a ticket.

543
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:05,800
 Can I ask you a question, Mr. Ramsey?

544
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:06,300
 Certainly.

545
01:08:06,300 --> 01:08:11,000
 I'm driving down the road and I'm in uniform and I'm just off duty

546
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:15,160
 and a family member of yours gets into a wreck and I drive right by him.

547
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:20,200
 Do I have as a statute, as a civil service, as a firefighter,

548
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:22,440
 should I stop and render aid to your family member?

549
01:08:22,440 --> 01:08:30,600
 I would hope that you would, but it would still be a voluntary act.

550
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:38,360
 That's statute I have to stop to render aid. That's a duty to act.

551
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,400
 Okay. Mr. Ramsey, may I add to that as well?

552
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:46,620
 Certainly.

553
01:08:46,620 --> 01:08:52,600
 So what I read in the book goes along with exactly what Mr. Galbraith is saying.

554
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:56,440
 On 95, I believe it says something to do with a state that imposed a statute

555
01:08:56,440 --> 01:09:03,880
 to a duty to act, a render aid type thing. And yes, Galbraith is 100% correct.

556
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:07,320
 We have a duty to act. We can't just pass it up.

557
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:15,080
 So that's where the question was not completely worded on which act they're talking about.

558
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:19,000
 There's a duty to act and another kind of act, which is an action, I guess.

559
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:22,120
 But just to add on to what he's saying, he's correct, I believe.

560
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:36,520
 My question is related to you. You gentlemen are both contesting.

561
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:42,120
 Is this correct that you think there are two correct answers, not just the one, right?

562
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:46,040
 So you guys both agree voluntary in nature is correct.

563
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:50,680
 Because you've said so to Commissioner Ramsey, right?

564
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:51,180
 Yes.

565
01:09:51,180 --> 01:09:55,480
 But you both also believe that D is correct. Is that true?

566
01:09:55,480 --> 01:10:02,280
 No, we both believe that, well, I speak for myself.

567
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:06,200
 I believe that D is also correct compelled by a statute.

568
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:10,680
 And in the book, it discusses certain states that put those statutes on drivers,

569
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:15,960
 not necessarily EMS workers, but drivers passing a scene of an accident

570
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:18,280
 or causing an accident and not rendering aid.

571
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:20,760
 We are both wanting both.

572
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:25,480
 Both are wanting CMD to accept CMD.

573
01:10:25,480 --> 01:10:26,920
 Yes, sir.

574
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:33,800
 So as written, so option D says only compelled by statute, right?

575
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:35,160
 That's the question you guys got.

576
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:39,240
 Yes, but we believe both are correct.

577
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:41,480
 Okay.

578
01:10:41,480 --> 01:10:45,240
 Well, that was my question as well, Jamie.

579
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:52,760
 Commissioner Blanton was that if you're going to put that descriptor in front that says only

580
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:57,720
 compelled by statute, that means you can't have any other answers.

581
01:10:57,720 --> 01:10:59,880
 That's the only answer.

582
01:10:59,880 --> 01:11:04,760
 Well, that's what we're questioning and there's no description of what this act is.

583
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:12,040
 So rendering aid or passing an accident can only be compelled by a statute,

584
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:14,280
 whereas other acts are also voluntary in nature.

585
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:19,320
 So there's no description of what act they're talking about.

586
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:22,280
 Right?

587
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,720
 The statement says you must do something.

588
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:27,080
 You guys have both agreed.

589
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:31,320
 You must, it must be voluntary.

590
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:34,200
 No, ma'am.

591
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:36,840
 Right?

592
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:37,800
 You don't agree.

593
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:38,360
 Okay.

594
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:39,160
 No, ma'am.

595
01:11:39,160 --> 01:11:43,080
 So you're saying C is wrong then?

596
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:49,240
 No, I'm saying that an act as a criminal act must be voluntary in nature.

597
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:56,040
 An act put on by a certain state as to render aid, you have a duty to act.

598
01:11:56,040 --> 01:11:59,400
 So that's what I'm saying is the question is not specific to,

599
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:02,440
 are you asking about a criminal act or the duty to act?

600
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:09,720
 So I believe that both can be correct depending on what they're truly asking of the question.

601
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:10,520
 Right, right.

602
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:12,920
 So now you said that both cannot be correct.

603
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:14,200
 That's what I was waiting for you to say.

604
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:15,960
 It's got to be one or the other.

605
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:17,320
 No, sir, I must have cut out.

606
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:18,760
 Both of them can be correct.

607
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:22,840
 A criminal act must be voluntary in nature.

608
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:28,360
 A duty to act can be voluntary, but in some states it's compelled by a statute.

609
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:30,280
 There are statutes written for that specifically.

610
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:34,920
 So let's go back to page 94.

611
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:38,120
 I realize you don't have your book, but I'm going to read it for you.

612
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:39,400
 Yes, sir.

613
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:44,440
 It says an essential element of every crime is an act.

614
01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:48,520
 Yes, sir, criminal act.

615
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:49,480
 Of every crime.

616
01:12:49,480 --> 01:12:51,960
 So this is a criminal act.

617
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:58,200
 It depends on how you read the question, I guess.

618
01:12:58,200 --> 01:12:58,760
 I mean, there's--

619
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:01,160
 No, I'm not at the question yet.

620
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:01,960
 I'm not at the question.

621
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:03,800
 I'm just reading this section in the book.

622
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:04,680
 Okay.

623
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:05,640
 Okay.

624
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:09,080
 In the book, it says this is 5.6.1.

625
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:09,880
 It says act.

626
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:15,480
 It says an essential element of every crime is an act.

627
01:13:15,480 --> 01:13:17,160
 Okay.

628
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:26,040
 So this criminal act can be affirmative action taken or the failure to act.

629
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:34,360
 So that means you're committing a crime or you're failing to act is considered a crime.

630
01:13:34,360 --> 01:13:36,040
 Yes, sir.

631
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:36,440
 We're talking--

632
01:13:36,440 --> 01:13:38,040
 Are we together?

633
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:39,560
 Yes, sir.

634
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:41,720
 I'd like to add also, though.

635
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:42,120
 Okay.

636
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:42,360
 Okay.

637
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:42,760
 Go ahead.

638
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:47,480
 In those-- in that context, you're talking about a criminal act.

639
01:13:47,480 --> 01:13:56,040
 If you go to page 95, it states the duty to act also arises where a statute imposes a duty to act.

640
01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:00,840
 And in the book, it talks about-- I don't remember exactly what state.

641
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:04,360
 They impose a statute for that.

642
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:09,080
 And Commissioner Baines, I just wanted to say,

643
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:16,600
 if you're reading in the context of this sentence that you've led up to the actual test question,

644
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:22,040
 they're leading this paragraph off with criminal act.

645
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:23,400
 Right, right.

646
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:27,560
 Then you get the test question and it just says ACT, act.

647
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:31,560
 So when you're taking the test and you're going through the test,

648
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:33,560
 I don't know-- we don't know what act you're talking about.

649
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:34,840
 Are you talking about criminal?

650
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,800
 Are you talking about-- are you talking about a statute?

651
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:41,880
 I just want to make that clear to the commissioners that when you're

652
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:47,720
 talking about the test and you're going through this and you're trying to put it out there,

653
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:52,760
 that it's hard to really differentiate what act are we speaking of because it's not listed.

654
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:54,200
 In the question.

655
01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:55,560
 I agree with you.

656
01:14:55,560 --> 01:15:01,640
 So when you come to this, there's a big element of confusion here.

657
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:04,200
 There's a big element of confusion.

658
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:04,920
 For me, there is.

659
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:07,240
 Yeah.

660
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:13,080
 So I'm just trying to make sure-- I won't say I go through every rabbit hole,

661
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:18,600
 but at least I try to take every possibility to see if I can see it your way

662
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:26,440
 or if I need to see it the way of the-- so I'm trying to make sure I ask the questions.

663
01:15:26,440 --> 01:15:29,080
 And I'm not rushing.

664
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:29,720
 I'm not rushing.

665
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:30,520
 I'm taking my time.

666
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:36,280
 So if somebody's upset with me, I apologize for taking my time.

667
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:45,640
 So now this question then-- now I don't know if it's fair.

668
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:51,000
 I don't know if that's the right description to use, that when you're being tested on this

669
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:57,800
 particular item, if you can remember this specific place and this particular context.

670
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:04,120
 But when you come to the test, it says an act, whether affirmative or a failure to act

671
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:12,120
 must be-- it's a direct quote, but I think, like you say, the context there is a little difficult.

672
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:21,800
 I'd like to hear from the-- I don't know, Darrell, if this is the appropriate place,

673
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:24,840
 but I'd like to hear from the department, if we could.

674
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:25,720
 Sure, sure.

675
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:32,280
 I have a comment that I-- but let's go ahead and hear the department response.

676
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:37,080
 The department's recommendation is to sustain the key.

677
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:42,280
 The question and answer are word for word from the book, as you've all read.

678
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:47,400
 In both appeals they receive, they refer to a duty to act,

679
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:50,040
 which the book does state may be imposed by statute.

680
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:53,960
 An act is an element of a crime.

681
01:16:53,960 --> 01:17:02,760
 A duty to act is an obligation which results from a relationship between two parties,

682
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:06,520
 which results in an action or a failure to act.

683
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:12,840
 In either case, both appeals request answer D to be accepted.

684
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:19,400
 Answer D is not a valid answer because it states only compelled by a statute.

685
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:22,600
 Answer C is the one best answer.

686
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:30,360
 Questions of fire.

687
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:48,360
 Step one, if response D had listed not the word only, but been just compelled by a statute

688
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:52,840
 without that additional term, would it have been also an acceptable answer?

689
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:56,760
 My interpretation--

690
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:59,320
 Sorry, the question is to you, sir.

691
01:17:59,320 --> 01:17:59,640
 Thank you.

692
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:04,600
 My interpretation of the book is-- or of the question.

693
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:06,680
 The question refers to an act.

694
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:15,560
 The book, as Mr. Baines read, says an essential element of every crime is an act.

695
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:17,960
 So to me, an act is an element of a crime.

696
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:22,360
 A duty to act is a different thing.

697
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:33,480
 So I think specifically the question is asking about an act.

698
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:36,040
 Thank you.

699
01:18:36,040 --> 01:18:36,540
 Thank you.

700
01:18:36,540 --> 01:18:41,400
 Darryl, you're the wise one here, sir.

701
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:44,440
 I'm going to have to defer to you, Dr. Ramsey.

702
01:18:44,440 --> 01:18:46,520
 Can we bring in the lawyers?

703
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:55,880
 The reason I'm saying that is there's some confusion here.

704
01:18:55,880 --> 01:19:03,640
 This is confusing because if you go back to 5.6.1,

705
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:10,280
 and that LEAD statement says an essential element of every crime is an act.

706
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:19,160
 So as a public servant, we have a-- public servants have a responsibility to serve.

707
01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:22,200
 As someone said, you can't just drive by.

708
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:23,800
 Say, I didn't see that.

709
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:27,000
 That's just like me as a citizen.

710
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:28,360
 I see an accident.

711
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:36,280
 I think I can be convicted of a crime for failure to render aid when I saw a need there.

712
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:40,200
 If somebody saw me leave, that puts me in jeopardy.

713
01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:42,200
 So there's a duty there.

714
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:47,880
 But to put that word only, throws more confusion in.

715
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:53,640
 So to me, I'm not the smartest, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

716
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:57,480
 I got a little sharpness, but to me, there's a little work that needs to be done here.

717
01:19:57,480 --> 01:20:01,320
 Mr. Chairman.

718
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:05,960
 I would like to ask a question of the fire department related to this question,

719
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:10,280
 and it's the same one that Commissioner Baines asked for the prior appeal.

720
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:14,040
 I would like to know, of the four responses,

721
01:20:14,040 --> 01:20:19,800
 how many selected the correct response versus the alternate choices?

722
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:28,040
 Four selected the correct response, four selected D to selected A.

723
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:34,520
 And the other four selected C.

724
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:38,600
 Yes, yes, sir.

725
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:40,360
 Okay, there were 10 responses total.

726
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:41,880
 Yes, sir.

727
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:42,600
 Okay, thank you.

728
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:47,320
 I'm going to entertain a motion.

729
01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:54,120
 Are we going to hear from the opposition?

730
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:59,720
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

731
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:01,960
 Yes, sir.

732
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:03,160
 I would, please.

733
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:03,960
 Chad Neely.

734
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:04,460
 Yes, sir.

735
01:21:04,460 --> 01:21:05,640
 Hi.

736
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:06,760
 How's everybody doing?

737
01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:08,600
 Good.

738
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:09,100
 Good.

739
01:21:09,100 --> 01:21:12,040
 I get that this is a confusing question.

740
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:16,440
 I understand as being one of the four people that answer the question correctly that

741
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:22,920
 I want to just kind of break this down in my head to you all of how I came to that answer.

742
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:23,560
 That makes sense?

743
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:25,080
 Yes.

744
01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:37,080
 Okay, first of all, the question is referring to under act, 5.6.1 says act.

745
01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:41,720
 So we're talking about an act specifically.

746
01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:44,120
 A general duty to act is different.

747
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:47,560
 We're talking a general duty to act or general duty to do something.

748
01:21:48,440 --> 01:21:51,480
 Is different than a general than an act and act.

749
01:21:51,480 --> 01:21:59,160
 And again, to back up the department's response is an act specifically is an element of a crime.

750
01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:02,760
 So we're talking specifically about an act in that response.

751
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:05,320
 And I understand that it can get confusing.

752
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:13,400
 And I understand the guys appeal in this because it is a big book and I get it gets confusing.

753
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:19,400
 But I want to go back to the point that it says only compelled by a statute.

754
01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:27,560
 And their reference on page 95 says a duty to act may also arise

755
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:30,840
 where a statute imposes a duty to act.

756
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:39,320
 If that Senate said a duty to act only anywhere in that Senate says only,

757
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:44,600
 then I could get that argument, but when you have an answer,

758
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:50,360
 especially on a test like this that says only, that means only.

759
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:52,760
 That means that's the only answer.

760
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:55,240
 Anything above that can't be correct.

761
01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:59,960
 So to argue that both answers are correct doesn't make any sense.

762
01:22:59,960 --> 01:23:08,760
 So again, under the fact that it says act, 5.6.1 says act.

763
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:10,040
 This says an act.

764
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:16,840
 And then the question and answer are word for word verbatim from the book.

765
01:23:16,840 --> 01:23:22,280
 And they're talking about an act as reference to an element of a crime,

766
01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:28,520
 not a general duty to do something or act, an action, a general duty action.

767
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:31,240
 In other words, so let me say this.

768
01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:38,760
 And Buck's response to, hey, if I drive by your family and they're in a wreck,

769
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:42,120
 do I have a duty to act?

770
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:44,920
 Well, in some states, you have a duty to act.

771
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:47,240
 And in fact, the book, I can't remember the two states,

772
01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:53,080
 but there's two states that you can actually be criminalized for not doing something.

773
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:57,080
 But not all states are like that.

774
01:23:57,080 --> 01:24:00,440
 In some states, as a paramedic, I can absolutely drive by

775
01:24:00,440 --> 01:24:03,720
 and see some dude on the side of the road because this happens a lot in Denton,

776
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:08,200
 unfortunately, that as homeless man that is asleep on the side of the road,

777
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:09,720
 and I can keep on driving.

778
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:13,000
 And the fact is, I'm not going to get arrested for not checking on that guy.

779
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:21,400
 So there's no statute that only like my duty to act is not impressed only by statute.

780
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:25,960
 It would be my voluntary act to pull over and help that guy.

781
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:30,280
 And we're not talking about specifically in Texas, talking about across the country.

782
01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:35,720
 So again, my argument is to get this question,

783
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:39,720
 to understand the question, you have to understand what the question is asking.

784
01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:45,160
 The question is asking is under act, which it says 5.6.1.

785
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:50,200
 And the fact that the answer says only that they're arguing could be correct.

786
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:56,280
 Just the verbiage of the answer means two questions, two answers can't be correct.

787
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:04,840
 And clearly voluntary in nature is verbatim from the book and also correct.

788
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:08,120
 Does that make sense?

789
01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:09,000
 Yes.

790
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:11,240
 Okay. Thank you for listening to me.

791
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:12,200
 I appreciate your time.

792
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:13,640
 Thank you.

793
01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:20,520
 Mr. Chairman, you penalize these two gentlemen who

794
01:25:20,520 --> 01:25:25,400
 undoubtedly have worked very hard and have also worked hard on their appeal.

795
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:31,560
 But if we make more than one answer correct,

796
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,360
 then we penalize the others that did get it correct.

797
01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:36,120
 And we're talking about dollars here.

798
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:42,920
 And so I'm going to make a motion that we sustain the key with the caveat

799
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:45,480
 that we've got to do a better job on this question.

800
01:25:45,480 --> 01:25:46,760
 It is confusing.

801
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:52,440
 And I apologize to Mr. Gilbreth and to Mr. Roberts that

802
01:25:55,640 --> 01:26:00,680
 for the confusion, but I do applaud you for your tenacity and your scholarship.

803
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:11,320
 So that's a long notion, but I want to confirm the sustain the key.

804
01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:15,560
 I'll second the motion.

805
01:26:15,560 --> 01:26:19,880
 Now, do we have any discussion among us?

806
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:27,160
 I will say politely and very respectfully that I disagree with Commissioner Baines.

807
01:26:27,160 --> 01:26:32,760
 I actually feel like this question is more clear than the one we discussed previously

808
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:38,040
 because of two key words, and that's must and only.

809
01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:46,840
 So I was inclined or would have been inclined to entertain more possible dismissal

810
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:49,960
 of the question and acceptance of the appeal.

811
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:56,360
 But those two very distinctive words are what makes this very sustainable, in my opinion.

812
01:26:56,360 --> 01:27:03,880
 Any other discussion?

813
01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:12,120
 Motion on the floor is to sustain the key of 65.

814
01:27:12,120 --> 01:27:14,360
 All in favor say aye.

815
01:27:14,360 --> 01:27:16,040
 Aye.

816
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:16,680
 Aye.

817
01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:17,180
 Aye.

818
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:20,460
 Okay.

819
01:27:20,460 --> 01:27:25,240
 Permissioners, before moving to the next question, I have just a suggestion.

820
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:26,360
 Yes, ma'am.

821
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:35,160
 Before going maybe into a rather detailed discussion regarding the appeal in terms of

822
01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:43,320
 the question, I would recommend that we get the department's response first and then

823
01:27:43,320 --> 01:27:50,440
 thereafter go into a more deeper discussion in regard to the thought process and

824
01:27:50,440 --> 01:27:54,040
 analyzation of the appeal itself.

825
01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:57,880
 Very noted.

826
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:07,720
 We have the department response, so we've kind of known what their response is all along.

827
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:13,960
 I know, it just allows the fire department to do a little bit more work.

828
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:17,080
 I love the fire department, I really do.

829
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:22,280
 But I think Michael would love to just be able to say a little bit more.

830
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:23,880
 Thank you, Stephanie.

831
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:33,160
 Next question is question 85,

832
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:39,800
 which is Mr. Johnson.

833
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:41,660
 Yes, sir.

834
01:28:41,660 --> 01:28:47,400
 I'm here and since the department decided to accept my appeal,

835
01:28:47,400 --> 01:28:51,480
 unless there's any further discussion, I'm good on this question.

836
01:28:51,480 --> 01:28:57,820
 Okay.

837
01:29:06,120 --> 01:29:10,520
 Why don't I think, I'm trying to think procedurally now.

838
01:29:10,520 --> 01:29:11,020
 Okay.

839
01:29:11,020 --> 01:29:13,400
 So bear with me.

840
01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:22,840
 I think you probably should go ahead and read your appeal in and then get the response.

841
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:27,720
 Because if you take your appeal away, then we don't discuss the question.

842
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:29,080
 Okay, that's fine.

843
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:29,640
 Yeah, I don't mind.

844
01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:32,520
 So basically, I appealed this question.

845
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:39,320
 I said that answer B is also a correct answer due to the fact that both beams and girders

846
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:44,120
 are structural members that can carry loads perpendicular to their longitudinal dimensions,

847
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:45,320
 as stated in the question.

848
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:51,880
 And the main difference is that girders just typically span greater distances than beams can.

849
01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:59,560
 And this can be visualized in the picture in figure 9.17 on the bottom of page 248,

850
01:29:59,560 --> 01:30:03,720
 and in the description of girders directly above that picture on the same page.

851
01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:09,880
 So for this reason, I chose answer B as both answers B and C are correct.

852
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:14,120
 You're saying D is in delta, right?

853
01:30:14,120 --> 01:30:16,920
 Yep, D is in delta is correct as well.

854
01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:18,060
 Okay.

855
01:30:18,060 --> 01:30:23,100
 Questions?

856
01:30:23,100 --> 01:30:26,120
 I have none.

857
01:30:26,120 --> 01:30:26,620
 Thank you.

858
01:30:28,120 --> 01:30:31,160
 Do I respond?

859
01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:31,660
 Yes, sir.

860
01:30:31,660 --> 01:30:39,320
 The department's recommendation is to accept the appeal, as stated in Mr. Johnson's appeal.

861
01:30:39,320 --> 01:30:47,080
 In addition to answer C, the book does state on page 248 that joist girders are heavy steel

862
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:52,760
 trusses used to take the place of steel beams as part of the primary structural frame,

863
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:56,120
 except both C and D.

864
01:30:58,920 --> 01:30:59,420
 Okay.

865
01:30:59,420 --> 01:31:01,880
 Questions of fire?

866
01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:05,000
 No questions of fire.

867
01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:09,240
 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

868
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:11,080
 I would like to, please.

869
01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:12,140
 Yes, sir.

870
01:31:12,140 --> 01:31:19,080
 I believe since we've been given this answer quite often,

871
01:31:19,080 --> 01:31:21,960
 I believe if you go strictly by what the book says,

872
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:25,480
 it's word for word that C, Charlie is the correct answer.

873
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:31,960
 As Mr. Bain stated that there's good answers and then there's best answers,

874
01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:36,120
 and Ms. Blanton also stated that as well.

875
01:31:36,120 --> 01:31:39,240
 There seems to be a lot of hang up on key words.

876
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:41,320
 Again, I apologize.

877
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:45,160
 I don't have the material in front of me, but joist girders, as in the book,

878
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:46,440
 is not one of the choices.

879
01:31:46,440 --> 01:31:48,520
 It specifically states a girder.

880
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:53,400
 I would encourage you to visit that just a little bit.

881
01:31:57,560 --> 01:31:59,320
 Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

882
01:31:59,320 --> 01:32:03,000
 Commissioner Ramsey, I just wanted to say for an hour and a half,

883
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:05,960
 we've been really sticking to word for word verbatim,

884
01:32:05,960 --> 01:32:13,560
 getting the response from the fire department and the commissioner saying

885
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:17,640
 we're sticking to what is said in the book, word for word.

886
01:32:17,640 --> 01:32:23,400
 Well, this is an example like Mr. Roberts says that this is in the book,

887
01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:28,920
 stating being is a structural member and then the definition.

888
01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:32,040
 I just wanted to reiterate that.

889
01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:32,540
 Thank you.

890
01:32:32,540 --> 01:32:36,600
 Can I speak again, commissioner?

891
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:40,200
 Do I have the opportunity since I'm speaking forward instead of against it at this time?

892
01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:42,520
 Sure, go ahead.

893
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:43,720
 Okay.

894
01:32:43,720 --> 01:32:48,840
 I just want to say that if the book also states that girders can be used in place

895
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:53,880
 of heavy steel beams as part of a structural, that is saying the same thing

896
01:32:53,880 --> 01:32:56,200
 from the book, from the source material.

897
01:32:56,200 --> 01:32:58,440
 I didn't pull this from an outside reference.

898
01:32:58,440 --> 01:33:01,160
 It is word for word, just from a different section of the book.

899
01:33:01,160 --> 01:33:06,380
 Okay.

900
01:33:06,380 --> 01:33:10,280
 There's no comments from fire?

901
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:12,300
 No, sir.

902
01:33:12,300 --> 01:33:14,760
 Are there additional comments?

903
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:15,260
 No.

904
01:33:15,260 --> 01:33:16,220
 No, sir.

905
01:33:16,220 --> 01:33:17,260
 Okay.

906
01:33:19,320 --> 01:33:20,440
 Commissioners, questions?

907
01:33:20,440 --> 01:33:27,260
 Okay.

908
01:33:27,260 --> 01:33:31,800
 Let's kind of walk the line on this one here a little bit.

909
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:38,440
 John, let me ask a question.

910
01:33:38,440 --> 01:33:44,120
 Is this our discussion or are we still involving the appellants?

911
01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:49,000
 John?

912
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:58,280
 Well, the opposition has raised a good point that I think we need to consider.

913
01:33:58,280 --> 01:34:03,960
 May I suggest, commissioners, that we confirm whether the appellant

914
01:34:03,960 --> 01:34:09,240
 is still appealing this question or has he withdrew his appeal?

915
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:12,040
 No, I'm still appealing the question.

916
01:34:12,040 --> 01:34:13,320
 I have not withdrawn my appeal.

917
01:34:13,320 --> 01:34:14,860
 Okay.

918
01:34:14,860 --> 01:34:17,640
 I'm just wanting to clarify that.

919
01:34:18,280 --> 01:34:25,160
 I think, and I cause that because if he withdraws it, then we don't discuss it at all.

920
01:34:25,160 --> 01:34:32,040
 So he has to read it in and ask to be considered in order for the appeal to happen.

921
01:34:32,040 --> 01:34:35,160
 So, is that right?

922
01:34:35,160 --> 01:34:36,840
 If we withdraw it.

923
01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:39,720
 That is correct.

924
01:34:39,720 --> 01:34:44,360
 And the reason we're asking that question is because I understand that the department has already

925
01:34:45,400 --> 01:34:52,200
 accepted, you know, his appeal or his request to appeal and accepted what he recommended.

926
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:57,800
 But if he still obviously is going forth with the appeal,

927
01:34:57,800 --> 01:35:03,240
 even though the department has already accepted it, then please move forward, commissioners.

928
01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:06,760
 So, I guess I'm confused.

929
01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:11,560
 So, since they accepted my appeal, am I now appealing against it?

930
01:35:11,560 --> 01:35:13,000
 Is that what you're saying?

931
01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:14,680
 Against them accepting my appeal?

932
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:17,160
 No, she's not.

933
01:35:17,160 --> 01:35:18,680
 I'm speaking for you, Stephanie.

934
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:19,320
 You can jump in.

935
01:35:19,320 --> 01:35:25,320
 In order for this appeal to go forward, the commission has to vote.

936
01:35:25,320 --> 01:35:27,240
 Okay.

937
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:33,080
 And so, now it's on the table for us to discuss

938
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:40,840
 whether to accept what the fire said or what you said or what Mr. Roberts said.

939
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:43,320
 I mean, that's our job at this point.

940
01:35:43,320 --> 01:35:43,880
 Okay.

941
01:35:43,880 --> 01:35:47,000
 But it had to come on to the table before we could have that discussion.

942
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:48,200
 I understand.

943
01:35:48,200 --> 01:35:49,000
 Thank you.

944
01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:53,000
 Is that correct from my legal friends over here?

945
01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:55,560
 Yes, this is my chronic.

946
01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:59,880
 You don't have to accept the department's supporting the appeal.

947
01:35:59,880 --> 01:36:01,560
 Yeah, that's up to you folks.

948
01:36:01,560 --> 01:36:02,280
 Right.

949
01:36:02,280 --> 01:36:02,600
 Okay.

950
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:04,760
 Now, discussion.

951
01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:07,320
 I want to go back to the point of order, though.

952
01:36:07,320 --> 01:36:11,240
 Like, Commissioner Baines, I agree with you.

953
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:12,840
 We need to have some discussion.

954
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:19,320
 I guess what I want to understand is, is it more appropriate for us to make a motion either to

955
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:25,320
 accept the appeal, which is also the shared recommendation of the department,

956
01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:29,400
 first, and then for us to debate amongst ourselves what we should do?

957
01:36:29,400 --> 01:36:33,880
 Or is it appropriate for us to entertain the discussion

958
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:38,760
 that Mr. Baines has encouraged and I think is right based on the comments we've heard

959
01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:41,400
 now and then to make our motion?

960
01:36:41,400 --> 01:36:42,200
 Does that make sense?

961
01:36:43,160 --> 01:36:45,720
 What I'm asking, what I need to clarify.

962
01:36:45,720 --> 01:36:52,520
 Jamie, we can go either way because if we decide we don't want, we make a motion,

963
01:36:52,520 --> 01:36:57,160
 we can vote it down and have another motion.

964
01:36:57,160 --> 01:37:04,200
 Yeah, I think the appeal is already properly before you since you didn't withdraw it.

965
01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:09,640
 So I think you folks just decide whether to grant it or sustain it or grant it.

966
01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:10,520
 Right.

967
01:37:11,400 --> 01:37:15,480
 But our discussion can happen after a motion and we can defeat our motion

968
01:37:15,480 --> 01:37:19,560
 and make another motion if we so choose.

969
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:23,320
 I'm just trying to keep up with you too.

970
01:37:23,320 --> 01:37:24,280
 That's what I'm trying to do.

971
01:37:24,280 --> 01:37:35,800
 So Robert's rules would say we need a motion on the floor in order to have a discussion.

972
01:37:38,440 --> 01:37:43,080
 I move that we accept the appeal based on the recommendation of the fire department.

973
01:37:43,080 --> 01:37:51,800
 May I offer a friendly amendment to say that we accept C and D as correct answers?

974
01:37:51,800 --> 01:38:00,360
 I agree with your amendment and I want to include it in my motion.

975
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:02,680
 Okay, that's clarified then.

976
01:38:02,680 --> 01:38:06,600
 I'll second that for the sake of discussion.

977
01:38:08,120 --> 01:38:09,240
 So let's talk about it.

978
01:38:09,240 --> 01:38:23,720
 Okay, now in the fire department answer, it said it used an adjective, "joist girders,"

979
01:38:23,720 --> 01:38:28,760
 where the answer is actually a girder.

980
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:36,360
 So I was wondering if we could kind of go back to the book and satisfy ourselves that

981
01:38:37,480 --> 01:38:42,360
 we are speaking of the same thing and we're not speaking different things.

982
01:38:42,360 --> 01:38:50,760
 So I'll go to the department to help me do that.

983
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:51,400
 Please, Michael.

984
01:38:51,400 --> 01:38:53,000
 Yes, sir.

985
01:38:53,000 --> 01:39:06,440
 So I guess to speak on what Mr. Johnson and what those speaking against the appeal said.

986
01:39:07,400 --> 01:39:14,040
 So the question and the answer, as I've stated on all the previous appeals,

987
01:39:14,040 --> 01:39:17,880
 it is in fact word for word out of the book.

988
01:39:17,880 --> 01:39:20,600
 The book states, "Beam is a structural member

989
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:23,560
 that carries loads perpendicular to its longitudinal dimension."

990
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:25,720
 That's on page 79.

991
01:39:29,560 --> 01:39:38,840
 Mr. Johnson's appeal, which references a girder, that is on page 248.

992
01:39:38,840 --> 01:39:47,560
 And the two that spoke against the appeal, they have a valid point.

993
01:39:47,560 --> 01:39:50,040
 It doesn't just say "girder."

994
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:54,920
 It says a "joist girder," both in the text and under the picture.

995
01:39:55,960 --> 01:40:03,320
 So if you want to be specific regarding terms, "girder" is generic.

996
01:40:03,320 --> 01:40:08,440
 The book refers specifically to a "joist girder,"

997
01:40:08,440 --> 01:40:10,840
 which can be used in place of a heavy steel beam.

998
01:40:10,840 --> 01:40:21,400
 So, Mike, I have a clarifying question, please.

999
01:40:21,400 --> 01:40:22,440
 Yes, ma'am.

1000
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:28,760
 Remember when we took the SAT 100 years ago and there were those analogy questions,

1001
01:40:28,760 --> 01:40:32,920
 like beam is to girder and girder is to beam and all that stuff?

1002
01:40:32,920 --> 01:40:35,640
 You remember like way back in the 10th grade?

1003
01:40:35,640 --> 01:40:42,840
 So what, because I work at a nonprofit and I studied journalism, so I like words,

1004
01:40:42,840 --> 01:40:48,520
 but I don't know anything about construction or structural engineering of any kind, okay?

1005
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:57,480
 So is a joist girder a type of, I would assume,

1006
01:40:57,480 --> 01:40:59,960
 is a type of girder and there are other types, right?

1007
01:40:59,960 --> 01:41:01,800
 Yes, ma'am.

1008
01:41:01,800 --> 01:41:09,720
 And then a beam, which is the other answer that we accepted, would a girder be,

1009
01:41:09,720 --> 01:41:13,880
 and I think if I understood Mr. Johnson correctly,

1010
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:16,680
 a girder is a specific type of beam.

1011
01:41:16,680 --> 01:41:18,120
 Would that be correct as well?

1012
01:41:19,160 --> 01:41:20,680
 Yes.

1013
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:32,440
 Okay, so for me, if they're true synonyms, right?

1014
01:41:32,440 --> 01:41:38,440
 A joist girder is just a type of girder, but a beam and a girder are synonyms.

1015
01:41:38,440 --> 01:41:39,720
 Is that true or not?

1016
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:46,360
 They may be used in the same instance, yes.

1017
01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:51,080
 Like you could replace one with the other.

1018
01:41:51,080 --> 01:41:54,200
 Girder and a beam?

1019
01:41:54,200 --> 01:41:56,440
 Yeah.

1020
01:41:56,440 --> 01:42:01,000
 Well, if I were giving you my opinion, then it would be my opinion.

1021
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:07,800
 If we go out of the book, the only time it references a girder is

1022
01:42:07,800 --> 01:42:12,840
 on page 248 when it discusses the joist girder.

1023
01:42:15,480 --> 01:42:19,640
 But if I was to look up what it says right here,

1024
01:42:19,640 --> 01:42:25,000
 can be used to take the place of a steel beam, right?

1025
01:42:25,000 --> 01:42:28,920
 So it's essentially a type of beam replacement.

1026
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:34,680
 But I totally understand where the other two gentlemen are coming from too,

1027
01:42:34,680 --> 01:42:37,640
 that we were hardliners in the other situation.

1028
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:44,040
 To me, this just seems like a synonym issue.

1029
01:42:45,480 --> 01:42:55,080
 When you look at the glossary in the back of the same book,

1030
01:42:55,080 --> 01:43:01,560
 there is no entry for girder.

1031
01:43:01,560 --> 01:43:08,120
 There is in the index, but they do talk about beams,

1032
01:43:08,120 --> 01:43:12,600
 which led me to believe that they were synonymous.

1033
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:23,960
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1034
01:43:23,960 --> 01:43:33,960
 Other discussion?

1035
01:43:33,960 --> 01:43:41,960
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1036
01:43:41,960 --> 01:43:44,360
 My heart bleeds too much, Mr. Chair.

1037
01:43:44,360 --> 01:43:46,760
 So I have difficulty in that regard.

1038
01:43:46,760 --> 01:43:49,800
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1039
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:51,080
 I'm a bleeding heart.

1040
01:43:51,080 --> 01:43:51,800
 Do you get that?

1041
01:43:51,800 --> 01:43:52,600
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1042
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:53,640
 I get it, I get it.

1043
01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:57,160
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1044
01:43:57,160 --> 01:43:58,680
 We'll stop and render aid.

1045
01:43:58,680 --> 01:43:59,640
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1046
01:43:59,640 --> 01:44:01,320
 No, that was another question.

1047
01:44:01,320 --> 01:44:02,280
 Sorry, bad joke.

1048
01:44:02,280 --> 01:44:02,920
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1049
01:44:02,920 --> 01:44:03,720
 I apologize.

1050
01:44:03,720 --> 01:44:06,560
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1051
01:44:06,560 --> 01:44:08,200
 >> Where's Stephanie when I need her?

1052
01:44:08,200 --> 01:44:09,160
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1053
01:44:09,160 --> 01:44:11,480
 She should be shaking her head at you too also.

1054
01:44:11,480 --> 01:44:13,800
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1055
01:44:13,800 --> 01:44:20,840
 Well, Mr. Chair, it does specifically say under beams, it gives a synonym as girder.

1056
01:44:20,840 --> 01:44:24,680
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1057
01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:29,320
 >> I think that just means that what I moved, we should do.

1058
01:44:29,320 --> 01:44:30,280
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1059
01:44:30,280 --> 01:44:36,120
 >> Yeah, so Jamie, you wanna make a motion on this one?

1060
01:44:36,120 --> 01:44:38,360
 >> The motion's already on the floor.

1061
01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:39,000
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1062
01:44:39,000 --> 01:44:41,160
 >> Okay, so we just need to take a vote then, huh?

1063
01:44:41,160 --> 01:44:49,160
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1064
01:44:49,160 --> 01:44:56,040
 All right, motion on the floor is to accept answers C and D.

1065
01:44:56,040 --> 01:44:57,480
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1066
01:44:57,480 --> 01:44:58,760
 All in favor, say aye.

1067
01:44:58,760 --> 01:45:00,680
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1068
01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:01,240
 Aye.

1069
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:02,760
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1070
01:45:02,760 --> 01:45:03,400
 Opposed?

1071
01:45:03,400 --> 01:45:07,720
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1072
01:45:07,720 --> 01:45:08,360
 Abstain?

1073
01:45:08,360 --> 01:45:11,480
 [LAUGH]

1074
01:45:11,480 --> 01:45:13,560
 Okay, John, did you vote affirmative?

1075
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:17,240
 >> I voted in favor of accepting C and D.

1076
01:45:17,240 --> 01:45:19,560
 >> Okay, I didn't hear you, so okay.

1077
01:45:19,560 --> 01:45:21,640
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1078
01:45:21,640 --> 01:45:23,160
 So we accept C and D.

1079
01:45:23,160 --> 01:45:24,360
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1080
01:45:24,360 --> 01:45:25,240
 >> Thank you, commissioners.

1081
01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:28,440
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1082
01:45:28,440 --> 01:45:31,320
 >> Yeah, next is 91.

1083
01:45:31,320 --> 01:45:35,480
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1084
01:45:35,480 --> 01:45:43,400
 And let's see, there's only one, so Matt, you're on.

1085
01:45:43,400 --> 01:45:49,160
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1086
01:45:49,160 --> 01:45:52,440
 >> Given recent developments, I'd like to withdraw that appeal, please.

1087
01:45:52,440 --> 01:45:57,320
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1088
01:45:57,320 --> 01:45:57,880
 >> Positive?

1089
01:45:57,880 --> 01:46:00,680
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1090
01:46:00,680 --> 01:46:01,240
 >> Yes, sir.

1091
01:46:01,240 --> 01:46:09,480
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1092
01:46:09,480 --> 01:46:14,520
 >> Okay, 97, Mr. Johnson.

1093
01:46:14,520 --> 01:46:17,320
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1094
01:46:17,320 --> 01:46:19,000
 >> All right, I'm here.

1095
01:46:19,000 --> 01:46:20,200
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1096
01:46:20,200 --> 01:46:23,080
 So I guess I'll read my appeal again and then we'll go from there.

1097
01:46:23,080 --> 01:46:24,040
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1098
01:46:24,040 --> 01:46:28,440
 So I feel that answer A is also a correct answer to this question due to the fact that

1099
01:46:28,440 --> 01:46:33,880
 the keyed answer B, crisis, and the answer that I selected, A, adversity,

1100
01:46:33,880 --> 01:46:37,640
 are used interchangeably in the reference source material when dealing with the

1101
01:46:37,640 --> 01:46:39,720
 concept of revealing character.

1102
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:44,440
 This can be evidenced on pages 235 and 236 in the book,

1103
01:46:44,440 --> 01:46:47,240
 the same place where the keyed answer comes from.

1104
01:46:47,240 --> 01:46:51,080
 The terms crisis and adversity are mentioned the same number of times

1105
01:46:51,080 --> 01:46:53,400
 in this section while talking about this topic.

1106
01:46:53,400 --> 01:46:57,640
 For this reason, I chose answer A as both answers A and B are correct.

1107
01:46:57,640 --> 01:46:59,160
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1108
01:46:59,160 --> 01:47:06,520
 And I would like to add as well that last year, this question was on the driver's exam.

1109
01:47:06,520 --> 01:47:07,880
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1110
01:47:07,880 --> 01:47:11,640
 And so basically between last year and this year, they flipped two of the books.

1111
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:13,480
 This book was on the drivers last year.

1112
01:47:13,480 --> 01:47:15,560
 This year, it's on the captains and they took one of ours and

1113
01:47:15,560 --> 01:47:17,080
 put it on the driver's test this year.

1114
01:47:17,080 --> 01:47:17,640
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1115
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:19,960
 And last year, this appeal came up.

1116
01:47:19,960 --> 01:47:24,600
 Six candidates appealed this last year for the same exact reason I appealed it.

1117
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:29,640
 And it was an accepted appeal to where they took two answers.

1118
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:31,880
 One of the answer being the one that I selected this year.

1119
01:47:31,880 --> 01:47:36,520
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1120
01:47:36,520 --> 01:47:39,400
 >> Okay, questions?

1121
01:47:39,400 --> 01:47:42,520
 Questions of the appellant?

1122
01:47:42,520 --> 01:47:49,240
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1123
01:47:49,240 --> 01:47:50,120
 Five response.

1124
01:47:50,120 --> 01:47:57,240
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1125
01:47:57,240 --> 01:47:58,200
 John, do you have a question?

1126
01:47:58,200 --> 01:47:58,760
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1127
01:47:58,760 --> 01:48:02,360
 >> We're gonna, I do, but I'm gonna let the fire response.

1128
01:48:02,360 --> 01:48:02,840
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1129
01:48:02,840 --> 01:48:04,600
 >> Okay, fire response.

1130
01:48:04,600 --> 01:48:05,960
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1131
01:48:05,960 --> 01:48:08,360
 >> The department's recommendation is to sustain the key.

1132
01:48:08,360 --> 01:48:09,560
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1133
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:11,960
 The question and answer are word for word from the book.

1134
01:48:11,960 --> 01:48:13,080
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1135
01:48:13,080 --> 01:48:19,640
 The appeal states that adversity is used interchangeably with crisis when dealing

1136
01:48:20,360 --> 01:48:22,360
 with the concept of revealing character.

1137
01:48:22,360 --> 01:48:23,640
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1138
01:48:23,640 --> 01:48:27,560
 The book refers to adversity when leading a team and when faced with making high

1139
01:48:27,560 --> 01:48:28,440
 pressure decisions.

1140
01:48:28,440 --> 01:48:29,240
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1141
01:48:29,240 --> 01:48:32,680
 Additionally, adversity is described as a problem or

1142
01:48:32,680 --> 01:48:35,800
 opportunity that may be faced by you or your team.

1143
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:37,160
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1144
01:48:37,160 --> 01:48:42,280
 The book refers to crisis as a big problem that once people are able to overcome,

1145
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:45,160
 will gain the confidence, ability, and mindset to do it again.

1146
01:48:45,160 --> 01:48:46,840
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1147
01:48:46,840 --> 01:48:50,680
 >> Answer B is the one best answer.

1148
01:48:50,680 --> 01:48:54,680
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1149
01:48:54,680 --> 01:48:56,920
 >> I did have a question of Mr. Johnson, please.

1150
01:48:56,920 --> 01:48:57,480
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1151
01:48:57,480 --> 01:48:57,960
 >> Yes, sir.

1152
01:48:57,960 --> 01:48:58,840
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1153
01:48:58,840 --> 01:49:07,960
 >> Mr. Johnson, can you give me the context where you're drawing the use of the synonym,

1154
01:49:07,960 --> 01:49:08,440
 as you said?

1155
01:49:08,440 --> 01:49:10,280
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1156
01:49:10,280 --> 01:49:17,480
 >> Yes, sir, it talks about on the page 235, the top there right up under problems or

1157
01:49:17,480 --> 01:49:22,760
 opportunities, the first sentence, it's every adversity you and your team will

1158
01:49:22,760 --> 01:49:25,480
 encounter is either a problem or an opportunity.

1159
01:49:25,480 --> 01:49:26,520
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1160
01:49:26,520 --> 01:49:32,440
 And then it goes on to list adversity one other time and I'll try to find out exactly

1161
01:49:32,440 --> 01:49:33,960
 where that is.

1162
01:49:33,960 --> 01:49:35,240
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1163
01:49:35,240 --> 01:49:39,640
 But it's in that same paragraph that the crisis is from.

1164
01:49:39,640 --> 01:49:49,640
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1165
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:55,080
 >> Other questions?

1166
01:49:55,080 --> 01:49:56,840
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1167
01:49:56,840 --> 01:49:58,840
 >> My question is for you, Mike.

1168
01:49:58,840 --> 01:50:03,960
 In regards to the comment that Mr. Johnson made in his appeal,

1169
01:50:03,960 --> 01:50:08,760
 that this same question was on the driver's test and was accepted at that time.

1170
01:50:08,760 --> 01:50:11,000
 Can you confirm that information?

1171
01:50:11,000 --> 01:50:12,120
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1172
01:50:12,120 --> 01:50:13,560
 >> Yes, ma'am, that is a fact.

1173
01:50:13,560 --> 01:50:14,680
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1174
01:50:14,680 --> 01:50:21,160
 I did not realize that prior to compiling the department's responses.

1175
01:50:21,160 --> 01:50:22,440
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1176
01:50:22,440 --> 01:50:29,320
 I did review last year's appeals and it was in fact an appeal last year.

1177
01:50:29,320 --> 01:50:30,840
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1178
01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:37,320
 >> So I'm a little curious why then you would not change the department's response to

1179
01:50:37,320 --> 01:50:39,000
 accept it in this case as well?

1180
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:41,880
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1181
01:50:41,880 --> 01:50:50,920
 >> So the appeals are reviewed by three chief officers, and we take the responses from those,

1182
01:50:50,920 --> 01:50:57,240
 the majority of the responses from those, and that's what creates the department response.

1183
01:50:57,240 --> 01:50:58,440
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1184
01:50:58,440 --> 01:51:07,080
 So this year when this appeal was reviewed, the reasoning that I put in the department's

1185
01:51:07,080 --> 01:51:10,360
 response, those were the comments that I got back.

1186
01:51:10,360 --> 01:51:12,760
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1187
01:51:12,760 --> 01:51:18,200
 >> Yeah, and I'm not sure- >> I'm not trying to be hard about it,

1188
01:51:18,200 --> 01:51:24,120
 but there's not a process where you go by reviewing past appeals or whatnot as

1189
01:51:24,120 --> 01:51:25,800
 part of the process beforehand?

1190
01:51:25,800 --> 01:51:28,440
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1191
01:51:28,440 --> 01:51:35,480
 >> Yeah, this is Mike, I'm not even really sure that what was done in the past necessarily is

1192
01:51:36,680 --> 01:51:42,680
 relevant cuz different people may have made different arguments and we don't know exactly

1193
01:51:42,680 --> 01:51:44,520
 what the commissioner said.

1194
01:51:44,520 --> 01:51:49,240
 So I'm really not sure the propriety of saying just because it was ruled one way

1195
01:51:49,240 --> 01:51:52,520
 before should really have any bearing on what you folks do.

1196
01:51:52,520 --> 01:51:53,720
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1197
01:51:53,720 --> 01:51:56,760
 If you think it's relevant, you wanna consider it, but again,

1198
01:51:56,760 --> 01:52:01,960
 we don't know what the arguments were last time, so I don't think that should necessarily be

1199
01:52:01,960 --> 01:52:02,600
 controlling.

1200
01:52:02,600 --> 01:52:03,960
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1201
01:52:03,960 --> 01:52:10,040
 >> But to be clear, I'm not that Mr. Johnson necessarily did this, but we could go back to

1202
01:52:10,040 --> 01:52:12,440
 the public record and review that, right?

1203
01:52:12,440 --> 01:52:14,520
 >> I actually have- >> I don't have a plan for us to do that.

1204
01:52:14,520 --> 01:52:19,400
 I don't want Commissioner Baines and Commissioner Ramsey to think I'm gonna be looking at that

1205
01:52:19,400 --> 01:52:23,400
 record or whatnot, but just to be clear, that is something we could do, correct?

1206
01:52:23,400 --> 01:52:25,880
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1207
01:52:25,880 --> 01:52:32,600
 >> Again, I don't know what was done a year ago really is relevant or even admissible.

1208
01:52:33,560 --> 01:52:34,760
 Again, it's a different test.

1209
01:52:34,760 --> 01:52:39,000
 You're looking at it, this test in this time under these circumstances,

1210
01:52:39,000 --> 01:52:44,680
 not what happened a year ago on a different test with different appellants.

1211
01:52:44,680 --> 01:52:45,880
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1212
01:52:45,880 --> 01:52:49,000
 So I mean, ultimately, I think it's up to the commission to make a decision if you

1213
01:52:49,000 --> 01:52:50,440
 wanna give that any weight.

1214
01:52:50,440 --> 01:52:54,520
 But I just have some concerns about considering something from a prior appeal.

1215
01:52:54,520 --> 01:52:56,440
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1216
01:52:56,440 --> 01:52:57,480
 >> Commissioners, could I say?

1217
01:52:57,480 --> 01:53:00,760
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1218
01:53:00,760 --> 01:53:01,480
 >> Go ahead, Greg.

1219
01:53:01,480 --> 01:53:06,760
 >> I just wanna say that I did go back and I pulled all the appeals from last year.

1220
01:53:06,760 --> 01:53:09,480
 So I have all six candidates from last year and

1221
01:53:09,480 --> 01:53:12,440
 there are appeals here who filled the question.

1222
01:53:12,440 --> 01:53:15,800
 And I also have the department's response printed out.

1223
01:53:15,800 --> 01:53:20,120
 And the department's response was, and I can read it.

1224
01:53:20,120 --> 01:53:23,400
 It says that reasoning except A and B.

1225
01:53:23,400 --> 01:53:26,200
 The entire section is referring to adversity and

1226
01:53:26,200 --> 01:53:28,680
 the crisis quote is embedded in this section.

1227
01:53:28,680 --> 01:53:32,520
 The reader can come to the conclusion that crisis means the same as adversity

1228
01:53:32,520 --> 01:53:33,240
 in this section.

1229
01:53:33,240 --> 01:53:39,000
 So my question is, if we're going to appeal it and overturn it and

1230
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:43,320
 accept multiple answers one year, why then would we go back the next year and

1231
01:53:43,320 --> 01:53:46,600
 not accept that when the same question has been appealed and

1232
01:53:46,600 --> 01:53:49,880
 the test taker has the same problem with it that occurred last year?

1233
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:55,000
 [BLANK_AUDIO]

1234
01:53:55,000 --> 01:54:01,320
 >> Well, I agree with Mr. Cronick in that it's a different time.

1235
01:54:01,320 --> 01:54:03,320
 It's a different panel.

1236
01:54:03,320 --> 01:54:08,360
 I think that the fire department should have done that.

1237
01:54:08,360 --> 01:54:13,400
 Cuz hopefully the fire department looks at all of the appeals and says,

1238
01:54:13,400 --> 01:54:19,640
 is there a problem with the question that causes this to be an appealed answer?

1239
01:54:22,280 --> 01:54:28,440
 But we do have to understand it's a different set of people taking the test.

1240
01:54:28,440 --> 01:54:38,920
 It's a different set of people who are, excuse me, I'm running out of battery.

1241
01:54:38,920 --> 01:54:47,560
 The different people taking the test, I mean there are different eyes looking at

1242
01:54:47,560 --> 01:54:52,360
 it, looking at it differently, and that in and of itself could cause an issue.

1243
01:54:52,360 --> 01:54:56,360
 But again, I think the fire department should have, should catch that one.

1244
01:54:56,360 --> 01:55:02,040
 I know that I'm gonna skip something right now, but frankly, when I read the section,

1245
01:55:02,040 --> 01:55:09,960
 it kept talking about adversity and then down there it says crisis is.

1246
01:55:10,600 --> 01:55:17,960
 So I don't think this discussion about what happened last year,

1247
01:55:17,960 --> 01:55:20,120
 it's not making an influence on me.

1248
01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:29,400
 I looked at the book and I personally agree with the appeal based on that,

1249
01:55:29,400 --> 01:55:32,680
 not based on something I didn't even know ahead of time.

1250
01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:42,920
 So again, and that's just me and my opinion, and you come to this with an opinion waiting

1251
01:55:42,920 --> 01:55:44,440
 to be swayed in a different way.

1252
01:55:44,440 --> 01:55:54,040
 And so I think this is probably a moot point as far as what happened last year.

1253
01:55:54,040 --> 01:55:57,080
 Not for you, Mike, it's not a moot point for you.

1254
01:55:57,080 --> 01:56:02,680
 But us as a commission, I think it's a moot point.

1255
01:56:02,680 --> 01:56:06,200
 I think we look at it this year with our sets of eyes and

1256
01:56:06,200 --> 01:56:09,480
 under our circumstances this year and go with it.

1257
01:56:09,480 --> 01:56:14,120
 Are you making a motion then?

1258
01:56:14,120 --> 01:56:19,240
 Well, let me ask a question that I skipped.

1259
01:56:19,240 --> 01:56:22,440
 Does anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

1260
01:56:22,440 --> 01:56:24,280
 Yes, sir.

1261
01:56:24,280 --> 01:56:27,000
 Okay, go ahead, Matt.

1262
01:56:28,040 --> 01:56:35,160
 Again, it's puzzling to me how we're able to deduce information based off feelings

1263
01:56:35,160 --> 01:56:42,520
 for certain questions, but we're hard set on questions being directly worded word

1264
01:56:42,520 --> 01:56:43,480
 for word from the book.

1265
01:56:43,480 --> 01:56:50,680
 It's puzzling to me and I would encourage you to please accept the key answer

1266
01:56:50,680 --> 01:56:52,840
 and inside along with the department's answer.

1267
01:56:52,840 --> 01:56:53,800
 Thank you.

1268
01:56:58,280 --> 01:56:58,780
 Okay.

1269
01:56:58,780 --> 01:57:04,360
 And commission, I did found that other area where it referenced adversity.

1270
01:57:04,360 --> 01:57:07,800
 Right above where it says crisis on 236.

1271
01:57:07,800 --> 01:57:10,520
 Just above that, it says when it comes to leading a team,

1272
01:57:10,520 --> 01:57:18,280
 great things often follow adversity, which is synonym for crisis.

1273
01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:22,540
 Okay.

1274
01:57:26,600 --> 01:57:28,200
 I'd like to make a motion.

1275
01:57:28,200 --> 01:57:28,700
 Thank you.

1276
01:57:28,700 --> 01:57:33,640
 I would like to make a motion that we accept the appeal

1277
01:57:33,640 --> 01:57:42,680
 and that both answers A and B, adversity and crisis be acceptable for question 97.

1278
01:57:42,680 --> 01:57:45,640
 I'll second that.

1279
01:57:45,640 --> 01:57:51,960
 Now we can discuss our discussion place now, right?

1280
01:57:51,960 --> 01:57:52,460
 Yes.

1281
01:57:53,320 --> 01:57:59,960
 So I was prepared to feel this way before Mr. Johnson shared his additional information.

1282
01:57:59,960 --> 01:58:04,920
 I will say that the reason I asked the questions about it is because it frustrates me

1283
01:58:04,920 --> 01:58:09,560
 because I feel like the department should have done their due diligence here

1284
01:58:09,560 --> 01:58:14,600
 and maybe reviewed the question before putting it on the other test.

1285
01:58:16,920 --> 01:58:24,280
 And so to me, the additional information is for me, another nail in my solidifying my opinion

1286
01:58:24,280 --> 01:58:28,920
 because we could have saved some time and some energy.

1287
01:58:28,920 --> 01:58:32,220
 Yep.

1288
01:58:32,220 --> 01:58:38,680
 John, do you have discussion?

1289
01:58:38,680 --> 01:58:40,600
 I have no discussion.

1290
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:43,100
 All right.

1291
01:58:43,880 --> 01:58:50,760
 Motion is to accept A and B as answers to question 97.

1292
01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:52,760
 All in favor, say aye.

1293
01:58:52,760 --> 01:58:54,700
 Aye.

1294
01:58:54,700 --> 01:58:56,520
 I'll say no.

1295
01:58:56,520 --> 01:58:57,900
 Opposed?

1296
01:58:57,900 --> 01:58:58,700
 No.

1297
01:58:58,700 --> 01:59:07,500
 Okay.

1298
01:59:07,500 --> 01:59:09,660
 Thank you.

1299
01:59:12,680 --> 01:59:14,040
 I'm going to take just a second.

1300
01:59:14,040 --> 01:59:20,520
 That way, if the captain candidates want to go to dinner, they can.

1301
01:59:20,520 --> 01:59:27,160
 But I want to, again, I say this all the time and I'm sorry, get used to it.

1302
01:59:27,160 --> 01:59:29,320
 Then you'll hear it many times.

1303
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:37,000
 You may not be happy with our decisions.

1304
01:59:38,440 --> 01:59:43,800
 And I'm sorry, but I hope you felt like you got a chance to say what you needed to say.

1305
01:59:43,800 --> 01:59:49,480
 But most of all, as we've kind of referred to earlier, guys,

1306
01:59:49,480 --> 01:59:56,120
 that you take the time to study all of these books.

1307
01:59:56,120 --> 02:00:07,160
 You take the energy and the initiative and the choice to take the test over and over

1308
02:00:07,160 --> 02:00:10,520
 and over again, if you do, or if this is your first time.

1309
02:00:10,520 --> 02:00:19,160
 We appreciate the fact that you are trying to make yourself and our department and our city

1310
02:00:19,160 --> 02:00:24,280
 a better place by your increased knowledge and education.

1311
02:00:24,280 --> 02:00:32,040
 It's you do things that most of us wouldn't do.

1312
02:00:32,040 --> 02:00:35,640
 You run in where we're running out.

1313
02:00:36,840 --> 02:00:39,480
 And we applaud you for that.

1314
02:00:39,480 --> 02:00:40,760
 We thank you for that.

1315
02:00:40,760 --> 02:00:52,280
 And I encourage you to continue to grow in your education and in your service to our community.

1316
02:00:52,280 --> 02:00:56,840
 So thank you for all you do every day for all of us.

1317
02:00:59,640 --> 02:01:08,120
 Okay, next item on the agenda is the driver appeals.

1318
02:01:08,120 --> 02:01:11,240
 Mr. Chairman, can I advocate for a 10-minute break?

1319
02:01:11,240 --> 02:01:14,280
 10 minutes?

1320
02:01:14,280 --> 02:01:19,880
 I need to make myself a cup of coffee.

1321
02:01:19,880 --> 02:01:21,560
 I need to make myself a cup of coffee.

1322
02:01:21,560 --> 02:01:25,880
 Let's go with five and see what happens.

1323
02:01:25,880 --> 02:01:27,320
 Okay, all right.

1324
02:01:27,320 --> 02:01:27,800
 Thank you.

1325
02:01:27,800 --> 02:01:28,440
 We'll do five.

1326
02:01:28,440 --> 02:01:29,320
 We'll be back in a minute.

1327
02:01:29,640 --> 02:01:31,880
 We'll suspend for five minutes.

1328
02:01:31,880 --> 02:01:32,280
 Thank you.

1329
02:01:32,280 --> 02:01:34,040
 At about 540.

1330
02:01:34,040 --> 02:01:35,720
 All right, thank you.

1331
02:01:35,720 --> 02:01:46,120
 Okay, meeting of the Civil Service Commission at 540.

1332
02:01:46,120 --> 02:01:53,240
 First appeal for the driver's exam is Cody Kessler.

1333
02:01:55,720 --> 02:02:01,080
 Mr. I'll make this pretty short after reading it and hearing the captain's appeals.

1334
02:02:01,080 --> 02:02:03,560
 It is word for word out of the book, a section of it.

1335
02:02:03,560 --> 02:02:07,880
 I guess I just disagree that the definition of tandem pumping

1336
02:02:07,880 --> 02:02:14,760
 is in the book is a form of relay pumping which is used to boost pressures.

1337
02:02:14,760 --> 02:02:20,200
 It says, you know, it's needed when a pressure is higher than a single engine is capable of supplying

1338
02:02:20,200 --> 02:02:26,920
 where to me the way the question read, I pick none of the above because that

1339
02:02:26,920 --> 02:02:28,600
 is what relay pumping is in the book.

1340
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:33,400
 It's used when pumping water from a discharge to an intake of other engine or engines

1341
02:02:33,400 --> 02:02:35,480
 to send water down a line.

1342
02:02:35,480 --> 02:02:39,640
 Like I said, I'll let y'all do the interpretation.

1343
02:02:39,640 --> 02:02:40,760
 I don't have much argument on it.

1344
02:02:40,760 --> 02:02:44,760
 It's just not the definition that the initial definition that tandem pumping was.

1345
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:53,480
 Okay. Questions of the appellant?

1346
02:02:53,480 --> 02:03:01,240
 I have no questions of the appellant at this time.

1347
02:03:01,240 --> 02:03:04,440
 Our response.

1348
02:03:04,440 --> 02:03:09,480
 The department recommendation is to sustain the key.

1349
02:03:09,480 --> 02:03:12,840
 The question and answer a word for word from the book.

1350
02:03:12,840 --> 02:03:15,560
 Answer B is the one best answer.

1351
02:03:17,000 --> 02:03:22,840
 I had stated on my response that the appeal that the definition is from the book

1352
02:03:22,840 --> 02:03:26,440
 kind of to speak what Cody just said.

1353
02:03:26,440 --> 02:03:31,240
 I don't consider the question a definition.

1354
02:03:31,240 --> 02:03:39,160
 I consider the question a kind of an explanation of how tandem pumping works.

1355
02:03:39,160 --> 02:03:48,200
 So that will be my input. Questions of fire?

1356
02:03:48,200 --> 02:04:00,280
 Hearing none, anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

1357
02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:08,360
 Hearing none, I would entertain a motion.

1358
02:04:10,120 --> 02:04:12,040
 On question 23.

1359
02:04:12,040 --> 02:04:24,120
 I will move that we sustain the answer choice B on question 23.

1360
02:04:24,120 --> 02:04:28,280
 Okay, I'll second it.

1361
02:04:28,280 --> 02:04:34,200
 Discussion on the commission?

1362
02:04:37,640 --> 02:04:42,680
 Hearing none, all in favor of sustaining the key to 23, say aye.

1363
02:04:42,680 --> 02:04:44,220
 Aye.

1364
02:04:44,220 --> 02:04:45,660
 Aye.

1365
02:04:45,660 --> 02:04:46,780
 Aye.

1366
02:04:46,780 --> 02:04:49,720
 Okay, motion carries.

1367
02:04:49,720 --> 02:04:56,520
 Next is Brandon Hillis.

1368
02:04:56,520 --> 02:05:04,360
 Question 29, also from pumping an aerial apparatus.

1369
02:05:08,120 --> 02:05:12,040
 I'm here just a second.

1370
02:05:12,040 --> 02:05:16,920
 Okay, I don't know your name, so.

1371
02:05:16,920 --> 02:05:24,840
 I would like to withdraw my appeal on question 29.

1372
02:05:24,840 --> 02:05:29,100
 Okay.

1373
02:05:29,100 --> 02:05:31,080
 There's also word for word from the book.

1374
02:05:38,360 --> 02:05:42,040
 All right, thank you, sir.

1375
02:05:42,040 --> 02:05:51,880
 The next appeal is question 48.

1376
02:05:51,880 --> 02:05:57,000
 Brian Gilmore.

1377
02:05:57,000 --> 02:06:04,680
 And he's not with us, so I will read it into

1378
02:06:06,840 --> 02:06:07,720
 into the record.

1379
02:06:07,720 --> 02:06:15,800
 Question says fire door closers are not used on which type of fire door?

1380
02:06:15,800 --> 02:06:21,160
 A, rolling, B, swinging, C, sliding, D, any of the above.

1381
02:06:21,160 --> 02:06:24,920
 The keyed answer is rolling.

1382
02:06:24,920 --> 02:06:34,680
 Answer A. Mr. Gilmore says that there is no true correct answer.

1383
02:06:35,480 --> 02:06:39,880
 The question asks, the answer is rolling.

1384
02:06:39,880 --> 02:06:42,920
 Rolling doors use a fusible link.

1385
02:06:42,920 --> 02:06:48,600
 A fusible link is still a type of door closer for a fire door,

1386
02:06:48,600 --> 02:06:54,360
 and generally is incorporated on doors that only close during a fire event.

1387
02:07:00,440 --> 02:07:06,840
 So don't ask me any questions, I'm not the expert,

1388
02:07:06,840 --> 02:07:11,240
 but we will go with the fire response to the appeal.

1389
02:07:11,240 --> 02:07:16,360
 The department's recommendation is to sustain the key.

1390
02:07:16,360 --> 02:07:24,600
 The book states door closers can be used with sliding or swinging fire doors.

1391
02:07:24,600 --> 02:07:27,560
 That's the first paragraph on page 160.

1392
02:07:29,640 --> 02:07:35,080
 So the best answer is A, rolling doors, because that is not listed.

1393
02:07:35,080 --> 02:07:41,080
 Stated in the appeal states that a fusible link is a type of door closer.

1394
02:07:41,080 --> 02:07:43,080
 A fusible link is not a door closer.

1395
02:07:43,080 --> 02:07:48,280
 A fusible link, this is a quote from the book.

1396
02:07:48,280 --> 02:07:53,960
 Under fire conditions, a fusible link disconnects the door from the operator,

1397
02:07:54,520 --> 02:08:00,120
 and allows the door to close using a spring-powered door closer or a system of suspended weights.

1398
02:08:00,120 --> 02:08:06,120
 So the fusible link disconnects from the door from whatever is holding it open.

1399
02:08:06,120 --> 02:08:11,960
 The door is closed, according to the book,

1400
02:08:11,960 --> 02:08:16,360
 using a spring-powered door closer or a system of suspended weights.

1401
02:08:16,360 --> 02:08:22,440
 So the department's recommendation is to sustain the key.

1402
02:08:24,120 --> 02:08:25,800
 Okay, any questions of fire?

1403
02:08:25,800 --> 02:08:32,120
 I have no questions of fire.

1404
02:08:32,120 --> 02:08:37,000
 And you said the gentleman's not here with us, right?

1405
02:08:37,000 --> 02:08:38,060
 Right.

1406
02:08:38,060 --> 02:08:41,240
 Okay, the only question I had for Mr. Gilmore was

1407
02:08:41,240 --> 02:08:49,160
 when I read the material, I did not see where he was referencing his answer.

1408
02:08:49,160 --> 02:08:52,760
 So if he were here, that would be the only question I would have.

1409
02:08:53,480 --> 02:09:03,720
 I did see the answers for the two types of doors that you can use door closers with,

1410
02:09:03,720 --> 02:09:09,320
 and then the answer was which one can you not use door closers with.

1411
02:09:09,320 --> 02:09:11,640
 And I didn't see any justification for his answer.

1412
02:09:11,640 --> 02:09:14,440
 I was looking to hear his response.

1413
02:09:14,440 --> 02:09:20,680
 I would like to speak in opposition to the appeal.

1414
02:09:23,480 --> 02:09:31,000
 Hearing none, I would entertain a motion from the commission.

1415
02:09:31,000 --> 02:09:34,760
 So moved that we can sustain the key.

1416
02:09:34,760 --> 02:09:37,660
 Second.

1417
02:09:37,660 --> 02:09:40,200
 Discussion?

1418
02:09:40,200 --> 02:09:48,920
 Hearing none, all in favor of sustaining the key on question 48, say aye.

1419
02:09:48,920 --> 02:09:50,300
 Aye.

1420
02:09:50,300 --> 02:09:51,580
 Aye.

1421
02:09:53,240 --> 02:09:55,320
 Okay, motion carries.

1422
02:09:55,320 --> 02:10:02,920
 Question 70, and there are actually three appellants.

1423
02:10:02,920 --> 02:10:06,520
 Two are here, one is not.

1424
02:10:06,520 --> 02:10:14,520
 I will try to, I'll read his appeal into the record even if it does duplicate.

1425
02:10:14,520 --> 02:10:19,720
 So let's see, who's first?

1426
02:10:19,720 --> 02:10:20,440
 Mr. Hillis.

1427
02:10:24,040 --> 02:10:31,160
 Yes, the question is, never make roof ventilation holes where they will cut off your means of escape.

1428
02:10:31,160 --> 02:10:34,040
 What's the following statement most correct?

1429
02:10:34,040 --> 02:10:41,560
 The answer is C, which is always have a second way off the roof besides your opening.

1430
02:10:41,560 --> 02:10:45,160
 Nowhere in the book does it state using the opening

1431
02:10:45,160 --> 02:10:49,880
 as a egress and never has it ever been taught in the fire.

1432
02:10:49,880 --> 02:10:54,040
 Would you ever use the hole you just cut as a means of egress?

1433
02:10:54,040 --> 02:10:55,480
 So I think that is a bad question.

1434
02:10:55,480 --> 02:11:00,840
 I picked as the most correct would be A,

1435
02:11:00,840 --> 02:11:05,320
 which states always make a roof cut with your back to the edge of a roof.

1436
02:11:05,320 --> 02:11:10,360
 The reason I chose that would be the second means of egress

1437
02:11:10,360 --> 02:11:13,240
 could be a ladder thrown to the edge of the roof behind you.

1438
02:11:13,240 --> 02:11:19,560
 So I think C is incorrect because you would never use the hole as a means of egress.

1439
02:11:19,880 --> 02:11:28,840
 Okay, thank you, sir.

1440
02:11:28,840 --> 02:11:32,440
 Mr. Kessler.

1441
02:11:32,440 --> 02:11:35,800
 I agree with Mr. Hillis.

1442
02:11:35,800 --> 02:11:38,280
 That's the caption in the book in that picture.

1443
02:11:38,280 --> 02:11:42,600
 It does state, you know, you always need to have a second means of egress, but

1444
02:11:42,600 --> 02:11:47,800
 in the fire service, we would never use the opening that we just cut as a means of egress.

1445
02:11:47,800 --> 02:11:50,600
 That doesn't seem very smart.

1446
02:11:50,600 --> 02:11:54,040
 If the question was, if the answer was worded differently,

1447
02:11:54,040 --> 02:11:58,760
 I could see where it's come, but it's the being worded the way it is.

1448
02:11:58,760 --> 02:12:00,120
 Answer C is not correct.

1449
02:12:00,120 --> 02:12:10,440
 Okay, Mr. Davis is a PO.

1450
02:12:10,440 --> 02:12:14,920
 Mr. Kessler, what was your, what was your answer?

1451
02:12:17,160 --> 02:12:17,880
 Let's see here.

1452
02:12:17,880 --> 02:12:21,240
 I believe I chose A as well.

1453
02:12:21,240 --> 02:12:24,440
 Keep your back to the edge of the roof.

1454
02:12:24,440 --> 02:12:25,640
 That is the most correct.

1455
02:12:25,640 --> 02:12:32,680
 And that's also what you selected, correct, Mr. Hillis?

1456
02:12:32,680 --> 02:12:36,600
 That's correct.

1457
02:12:36,600 --> 02:12:40,360
 All clear with choosing A.

1458
02:12:40,360 --> 02:12:41,400
 Thank you.

1459
02:12:42,040 --> 02:12:47,800
 Actually, Cody, you said that the answer choice is worded wrong.

1460
02:12:47,800 --> 02:12:50,440
 You said other.

1461
02:12:50,440 --> 02:12:57,160
 You didn't give us an alternative, but just for the record.

1462
02:12:57,160 --> 02:12:58,120
 Yes, sir.

1463
02:12:58,120 --> 02:13:00,280
 No, this is my first appeals process.

1464
02:13:00,280 --> 02:13:01,240
 So I'm learning here.

1465
02:13:01,240 --> 02:13:02,920
 I didn't know about all this.

1466
02:13:02,920 --> 02:13:04,920
 My excuse, too.

1467
02:13:07,640 --> 02:13:18,040
 Mr Davis' appeal says that I would, it's 251 states that quote,

1468
02:13:18,040 --> 02:13:24,200
 I would never place a hole where it might interfere with our intended route of egress.

1469
02:13:24,200 --> 02:13:24,680
 End quote.

1470
02:13:24,680 --> 02:13:27,560
 Answer A states that very thing.

1471
02:13:27,560 --> 02:13:34,840
 The answer is wrong because the question asked for the most correct quote, end of quote answer.

1472
02:13:35,400 --> 02:13:46,280
 DfD would not make a vent hole with, yeah, with the hole being one of our means of escape.

1473
02:13:46,280 --> 02:13:55,560
 So his was that it should, his appeal says that it should be A rather than C.

1474
02:14:02,440 --> 02:14:06,520
 So yeah, any questions?

1475
02:14:06,520 --> 02:14:09,800
 Other questions for the two appellants that are here to answer questions?

1476
02:14:09,800 --> 02:14:12,840
 I did have a question.

1477
02:14:12,840 --> 02:14:19,080
 I wanted to find out where in the reading did you draw your answer from?

1478
02:14:19,080 --> 02:14:24,360
 This is Cody.

1479
02:14:24,360 --> 02:14:25,160
 I can go first.

1480
02:14:25,160 --> 02:14:30,200
 Honestly, on that question, I couldn't find when I was reading those, the answer choices,

1481
02:14:30,200 --> 02:14:34,920
 they, that was the most correct, not because it was in the book, but because that was,

1482
02:14:34,920 --> 02:14:38,520
 out of all the answer choices, that's the only thing that made sense.

1483
02:14:38,520 --> 02:14:46,120
 Like I said, the key word on that was the, you know, when you're reading the question,

1484
02:14:46,120 --> 02:14:51,000
 the answer choices, B says always make a roof cut with your opening between you and the outside

1485
02:14:51,000 --> 02:14:51,480
 of the wall.

1486
02:14:51,480 --> 02:14:52,440
 We would never do that.

1487
02:14:52,440 --> 02:14:59,000
 And this, the tactics book that this is in is a lot of common sense material for the fire service.

1488
02:15:00,680 --> 02:15:06,120
 Answer C, which is what we're appealing, says always have a second way off besides your opening.

1489
02:15:06,120 --> 02:15:09,480
 It's very vague to all of us.

1490
02:15:09,480 --> 02:15:12,360
 It's saying the opening is in the hole you're cutting because you're talking about cutting

1491
02:15:12,360 --> 02:15:16,920
 the hole on a flat roof and then never place yourself on a flat roof for the purpose

1492
02:15:16,920 --> 02:15:18,680
 of opening a roof.

1493
02:15:18,680 --> 02:15:21,320
 That does specifically say that in the material, I believe.

1494
02:15:21,320 --> 02:15:22,680
 I don't know where at.

1495
02:15:22,680 --> 02:15:33,080
 So that was where, so that was where I came up with A as the most correct.

1496
02:15:33,080 --> 02:15:37,080
 I couldn't remember if I read that in the source material, but that was what made the

1497
02:15:37,080 --> 02:15:37,960
 most sense to me.

1498
02:15:37,960 --> 02:15:45,640
 But on that page cited, the picture caption at the top of the page, it does say always

1499
02:15:45,640 --> 02:15:49,400
 have a second means of egress, but it does not say use your opening.

1500
02:15:52,440 --> 02:15:56,760
 So that's where I just believe the question, the answer choice is worded very poorly.

1501
02:15:56,760 --> 02:16:00,920
 Okay, thank you.

1502
02:16:00,920 --> 02:16:04,200
 Mr. Hillis, do you have anything?

1503
02:16:04,200 --> 02:16:07,400
 Nothing further to add.

1504
02:16:07,400 --> 02:16:07,900
 Okay.

1505
02:16:07,900 --> 02:16:12,040
 Fire response.

1506
02:16:12,040 --> 02:16:16,360
 The department's recommendation is to sustain the key.

1507
02:16:16,360 --> 02:16:19,240
 The most correct answer is C.

1508
02:16:19,800 --> 02:16:23,800
 The book emphasizes the importance of having a second way off of a flat roof.

1509
02:16:23,800 --> 02:16:30,520
 First, on page 250 in the last paragraph, the book states, be sure you have at least

1510
02:16:30,520 --> 02:16:31,640
 two ways off each roof.

1511
02:16:31,640 --> 02:16:39,400
 Second, on page 251 under figure 925 at the top, always have a second way off a roof.

1512
02:16:39,400 --> 02:16:45,960
 Two of the three appeals state that A is the correct answer.

1513
02:16:45,960 --> 02:16:49,000
 Answer A is not stated in the book.

1514
02:16:50,600 --> 02:16:54,600
 Answer B is in the book, which is something you never want to do.

1515
02:16:54,600 --> 02:17:02,280
 And answer D is just a distractor.

1516
02:17:02,280 --> 02:17:05,000
 If you didn't place yourself on the roof, then you wouldn't be opening it.

1517
02:17:05,000 --> 02:17:10,040
 So C is the one best answer.

1518
02:17:10,040 --> 02:17:11,740
 Thank you.

1519
02:17:11,740 --> 02:17:16,440
 Questions of fire.

1520
02:17:19,960 --> 02:17:25,400
 I would like to know the selection breakdown of this question as well.

1521
02:17:25,400 --> 02:17:29,320
 So we have two of three that chose A.

1522
02:17:29,320 --> 02:17:32,440
 I'm curious how many folks took the test and what did they choose?

1523
02:17:32,440 --> 02:17:37,240
 23 people took the test.

1524
02:17:37,240 --> 02:17:39,640
 13 people chose C.

1525
02:17:39,640 --> 02:17:42,040
 Nine people chose A.

1526
02:17:42,040 --> 02:17:43,320
 One person chose B.

1527
02:17:50,760 --> 02:17:56,600
 My question is a little more general, and it gets at what I think the appellants are after.

1528
02:17:56,600 --> 02:18:09,320
 So does this book count the vent opening as one of the ways off a flat roof?

1529
02:18:09,320 --> 02:18:11,340
 Really?

1530
02:18:11,340 --> 02:18:16,600
 That's a good question.

1531
02:18:16,600 --> 02:18:21,240
 I mean, the second part of that question I could not find in the book.

1532
02:18:21,240 --> 02:18:22,360
 So I don't know.

1533
02:18:22,360 --> 02:18:26,200
 I mean, they're right.

1534
02:18:26,200 --> 02:18:27,160
 The appellants are right.

1535
02:18:27,160 --> 02:18:30,760
 Your opening is not one of the ways off the roof.

1536
02:18:30,760 --> 02:18:32,520
 I get that.

1537
02:18:32,520 --> 02:18:38,360
 So that's a legitimate question.

1538
02:18:38,360 --> 02:18:43,960
 I mean, that's not stated in the book, but it is referenced in the question.

1539
02:18:47,560 --> 02:18:52,440
 Mr. Commissioner, if I may add to that, I think that's kind of where we were appealing.

1540
02:18:52,440 --> 02:18:53,880
 The first part of that question is correct.

1541
02:18:53,880 --> 02:18:55,480
 You always want a second way off.

1542
02:18:55,480 --> 02:18:58,200
 It was the end of the question that makes it not correct.

1543
02:18:58,200 --> 02:19:10,840
 But even if they say a second way off the roof, they're counting it, I guess, as one of the ways.

1544
02:19:10,840 --> 02:19:16,920
 So then the second part of the question really is valid, because it says besides your opening,

1545
02:19:16,920 --> 02:19:24,440
 the book appears to be counting that as one of them.

1546
02:19:24,440 --> 02:19:31,480
 It's kind of weird, but do you see where I'm going?

1547
02:19:31,480 --> 02:19:32,120
 Am I wrong?

1548
02:19:32,120 --> 02:19:33,960
 Yeah, I don't know.

1549
02:19:33,960 --> 02:19:39,880
 I think that was the kicker, is no one would ever use the opening they made to go off a roof.

1550
02:19:40,840 --> 02:19:44,680
 That's really the question.

1551
02:19:44,680 --> 02:19:50,280
 You think that, okay, you have two ways off the roof besides the vent hole you just made.

1552
02:19:50,280 --> 02:19:52,680
 Correct.

1553
02:19:52,680 --> 02:19:55,880
 So the book does talk about you always want to have two ladders.

1554
02:19:55,880 --> 02:19:59,640
 You set two aerial ladders to get off a book or to get off a roof.

1555
02:19:59,640 --> 02:20:04,120
 That way you always have a second means of egress.

1556
02:20:04,120 --> 02:20:05,960
 You typically on different sides of the building.

1557
02:20:06,920 --> 02:20:11,960
 So like I said, not arguing, you always want to have a second means of egress,

1558
02:20:11,960 --> 02:20:15,320
 but the book doesn't say that an opening would be one of them.

1559
02:20:15,320 --> 02:20:17,960
 To me, that's what makes that answer choice wrong.

1560
02:20:17,960 --> 02:20:24,600
 Any other questions?

1561
02:20:24,600 --> 02:20:32,200
 Is there anyone that would like to speak in opposition to the appeal?

1562
02:20:37,240 --> 02:20:44,520
 Okay, commissioners, I would entertain a motion.

1563
02:20:44,520 --> 02:20:51,480
 I would like to move that we accept these three appeals

1564
02:20:51,480 --> 02:20:57,480
 and that answer A and C be acceptable on the test.

1565
02:21:00,120 --> 02:21:07,400
 I'll second.

1566
02:21:07,400 --> 02:21:12,040
 Yes, let's kind of go through that number A.

1567
02:21:12,040 --> 02:21:14,840
 Help me.

1568
02:21:14,840 --> 02:21:18,200
 I might be the slowest one in the bunch, so I need some help.

1569
02:21:18,200 --> 02:21:27,160
 It says here, always make the roof cut with your back to the edge of a flat roof.

1570
02:21:29,960 --> 02:21:30,680
 What does that mean?

1571
02:21:30,680 --> 02:21:38,840
 With your back to the edge of a flat roof.

1572
02:21:38,840 --> 02:21:43,480
 Who are you asking, commissioner?

1573
02:21:43,480 --> 02:21:48,600
 Well, we've got nine people, right, that answered number A,

1574
02:21:48,600 --> 02:21:53,160
 and we have two of them here, and we have the department.

1575
02:21:53,160 --> 02:21:59,640
 I'd like to hear how this is a possibility or not a possibility.

1576
02:21:59,640 --> 02:22:00,680
 I'd love to hear from you, Mike.

1577
02:22:00,680 --> 02:22:06,440
 I would like to hear how it is a possibility as well.

1578
02:22:06,440 --> 02:22:12,840
 When you're cutting a hole in the roof, obviously you're cutting a square or rectangle,

1579
02:22:12,840 --> 02:22:16,520
 so you're going to be moving around that hole while you're cutting.

1580
02:22:16,520 --> 02:22:23,560
 So standing in one place or constantly having your back to one edge,

1581
02:22:24,600 --> 02:22:29,800
 I mean, I've never heard of that being a tactic that we follow.

1582
02:22:29,800 --> 02:22:37,880
 And as I stated, answer A is not addressed in the book.

1583
02:22:37,880 --> 02:22:46,040
 Well, that was kind of my idea, is that I couldn't visualize it.

1584
02:22:46,040 --> 02:22:49,880
 With your back to the roof, what does that mean?

1585
02:22:49,880 --> 02:22:52,360
 The edge of the roof.

1586
02:22:53,320 --> 02:22:55,960
 Yeah, you're back. What does that mean? You're back to the edge.

1587
02:22:55,960 --> 02:23:09,720
 Here's where I'm struggling, is that when you said, Mike, that you generally agree that the,

1588
02:23:09,720 --> 02:23:15,000
 like, I don't remember exactly how you said it, right, but you said that the appellants make a

1589
02:23:15,000 --> 02:23:21,240
 good point about the two parts of the question and how taken separately they kind of make sense,

1590
02:23:21,240 --> 02:23:28,520
 but together they don't. If it was up to me, maybe this motion is available to me,

1591
02:23:28,520 --> 02:23:34,040
 and I'm just new here and didn't know, but if it was up to me, I would have thrown the question

1592
02:23:34,040 --> 02:23:43,800
 out altogether because you had so many folks that made both those choices. So in my opinion,

1593
02:23:43,800 --> 02:23:51,320
 this is just a not great question, and I don't want to penalize people for your agreement that

1594
02:23:51,320 --> 02:23:57,160
 it's not a great question, but I also don't want to, I don't know, I feel like I'm in a no-win

1595
02:23:57,160 --> 02:24:05,240
 situation because even in the response, it says, you know, you give two page references. On page

1596
02:24:05,240 --> 02:24:10,920
 50, it talks about a second way off. Even your appellants agreed you want a second way off.

1597
02:24:10,920 --> 02:24:15,320
 They just don't want it to be the hole they just cut, which they said is part of their appeal.

1598
02:24:15,320 --> 02:24:23,320
 And then on 251, where you reference the diagram, again, we want two ways. We just don't want the

1599
02:24:23,320 --> 02:24:28,680
 hole, and I think that was the point that Commissioner Ramsey was making as well. I just

1600
02:24:28,680 --> 02:24:34,760
 think it's written very poorly overall, and I tried to pick a motion that I thought would

1601
02:24:35,560 --> 02:24:42,680
 help me to help them, you know, but I, you know, I don't know what to do. I feel at a loss because

1602
02:24:42,680 --> 02:24:53,240
 I feel like there's no winning here. When I look back at answer A, the only thing I came up with

1603
02:24:53,240 --> 02:25:03,160
 was that it's a way off the roof that doesn't involve the vent hole at all, and keep you back

1604
02:25:03,160 --> 02:25:10,440
 to the edge means that you're keeping that vent hole in front of you. And so I thought that C is

1605
02:25:10,440 --> 02:25:17,320
 still a better way to say it, although I'm not sure about the opening. Jamie, just for a point of

1606
02:25:17,320 --> 02:25:26,440
 clarification, we typically, we try our best not to throw a question out unless it just is

1607
02:25:27,480 --> 02:25:36,600
 really, really bad because that affects every question on every test from that point on.

1608
02:25:36,600 --> 02:25:44,920
 Crystal explained that part to me, which is why I made the motion that I did, but you had nine

1609
02:25:44,920 --> 02:25:55,800
 folks out of 13, right? Nine out of 24. Nine out of 24. Nine out of 24, which is still, I don't know.

1610
02:25:57,800 --> 02:26:05,960
 But yeah, that's also, I mean, I haven't said this before today. That probably is not an issue

1611
02:26:05,960 --> 02:26:16,840
 that should be a deciding factor for us. How many people got the question right or wrong?

1612
02:26:16,840 --> 02:26:23,880
 That probably isn't really a good issue for us to be dealing with. I want to go,

1613
02:26:25,000 --> 02:26:30,280
 but I don't think that's an issue that, because a different set of people would have a whole

1614
02:26:30,280 --> 02:26:37,320
 different set of results. So I don't think that's the issue at this particular point.

1615
02:26:37,320 --> 02:26:45,320
 That's where I struggle is our appellants here today, and even in the answer of the

1616
02:26:45,320 --> 02:26:54,360
 third gentleman, pretty much acknowledged they knew D was wrong and they knew B was wrong.

1617
02:26:55,480 --> 02:27:01,000
 But because of the way the question was worded, they didn't really feel like they could choose

1618
02:27:01,000 --> 02:27:07,800
 C safely. So they just went with the other one, thinking, well, maybe I didn't read something

1619
02:27:07,800 --> 02:27:12,600
 correctly. And I have a real hard time too, because we have been pretty sticklers here today

1620
02:27:12,600 --> 02:27:20,520
 about what's in the book and what's not in the book. But the point about the ventilation holes,

1621
02:27:20,520 --> 02:27:25,160
 I mean, I read this part five times in preparation for this meeting, trying to figure it out,

1622
02:27:25,160 --> 02:27:40,200
 and I couldn't figure it out. For me, if I'm trying to cut a hole in the roof with my back,

1623
02:27:43,240 --> 02:27:53,240
 you know, I'm just trying to visualize a flat roof. And then I want to be close to the edge,

1624
02:27:53,240 --> 02:27:59,720
 but not that close, you know. And so you're basically, you're going to have to make a square,

1625
02:27:59,720 --> 02:28:07,320
 I'm thinking, or a circle that you have to make it where you're going to, it's going to be a

1626
02:28:07,320 --> 02:28:15,080
 it's going to be a little awkward. So to me, that was a difficult one. Of course, B and D

1627
02:28:15,080 --> 02:28:22,920
 were not really answers. So for me, my deductive reasoning said it was C,

1628
02:28:22,920 --> 02:28:29,880
 but I wanted to hear why people chose A. I wanted to hear that. What was the motivation for that?

1629
02:28:33,560 --> 02:28:40,120
 Well, since it's us in discussion, I mean, I think the best solution to this

1630
02:28:40,120 --> 02:28:54,840
 is to approve the motion for A and accept A and C, rather than just C. And then, Mike, make note.

1631
02:28:54,840 --> 02:28:57,720
 Yes, sir.

1632
02:28:57,720 --> 02:29:04,760
 Next time. So that's, I mean, I think that's the best solution at this point,

1633
02:29:04,760 --> 02:29:08,760
 to remove confusion and then fix it.

1634
02:29:08,760 --> 02:29:11,320
 Yes, sir.

1635
02:29:11,320 --> 02:29:12,760
 Henceforth, so.

1636
02:29:12,760 --> 02:29:17,560
 We need to actually vote, right?

1637
02:29:17,560 --> 02:29:19,160
 Do what?

1638
02:29:19,160 --> 02:29:24,040
 We haven't actually voted yet. You can't tell them what to do until after we vote.

1639
02:29:26,200 --> 02:29:31,880
 Well, I think I know where we're going. Any other discussion?

1640
02:29:31,880 --> 02:29:34,360
 Call the question.

1641
02:29:34,360 --> 02:29:39,000
 Motion is to accept A and C. All in favor say aye.

1642
02:29:39,000 --> 02:29:40,840
 Aye.

1643
02:29:40,840 --> 02:29:45,800
 I'm waiting for John.

1644
02:29:45,800 --> 02:29:49,240
 I'm only going to accept C.

1645
02:29:56,920 --> 02:29:58,520
 Thank you guys very much.

1646
02:29:58,520 --> 02:30:03,160
 So John, you're actually voting no on this motion.

1647
02:30:03,160 --> 02:30:08,360
 Just to make sure, for clarification purposes, you're voting no on.

1648
02:30:08,360 --> 02:30:09,320
 I'm voting no.

1649
02:30:09,320 --> 02:30:10,040
 I'm voting no.

1650
02:30:10,040 --> 02:30:14,440
 I'm going to vote no as well.

1651
02:30:14,440 --> 02:30:15,400
 Okay.

1652
02:30:15,400 --> 02:30:23,880
 And I would then, then I would accept, I would entertain the motion.

1653
02:30:25,240 --> 02:30:26,280
 Entertain a motion.

1654
02:30:26,280 --> 02:30:29,160
 I'll vote to sustain the key.

1655
02:30:29,160 --> 02:30:33,000
 Second.

1656
02:30:33,000 --> 02:30:43,000
 I'll ask the question simply because Mr. Robert Summer would not be like it if I

1657
02:30:43,000 --> 02:30:44,440
 didn't ask it. Any discussion?

1658
02:30:44,440 --> 02:30:47,720
 No discussion.

1659
02:30:47,720 --> 02:30:49,080
 For me.

1660
02:30:49,080 --> 02:30:52,840
 All in favor of the motion to sustain the key, say aye.

1661
02:30:52,840 --> 02:30:54,220
 Aye.

1662
02:30:55,240 --> 02:30:55,740
 Aye.

1663
02:30:55,740 --> 02:30:57,500
 No.

1664
02:30:57,500 --> 02:30:58,780
 No.

1665
02:30:58,780 --> 02:31:03,880
 Motion carries.

1666
02:31:03,880 --> 02:31:13,400
 Next is question 95.

1667
02:31:13,400 --> 02:31:22,280
 And Jason, you're on finally.

1668
02:31:26,040 --> 02:31:33,160
 So, so the question 95 comes from page 171 in extreme ownership.

1669
02:31:33,160 --> 02:31:37,000
 It's the very last sentence of the first complete paragraph.

1670
02:31:37,000 --> 02:31:43,960
 To quote the book, it says frontline leaders must also have trust and confidence in their

1671
02:31:43,960 --> 02:31:47,560
 senior leaders to know that they are empowered to make decisions.

1672
02:31:47,560 --> 02:31:51,240
 So the test leaves out the word also.

1673
02:31:52,600 --> 02:31:58,040
 So if you're going based on the quote from the book, the word says also, or the, excuse

1674
02:31:58,040 --> 02:32:06,760
 me, the sentence says also, also indicates two, which tells me two answers.

1675
02:32:06,760 --> 02:32:14,040
 So that's why I appealed and that's why I think both A and D are correct answers

1676
02:32:14,040 --> 02:32:21,720
 because it says senior leaders and their subordinates many times in the book.

1677
02:32:23,240 --> 02:32:24,040
 Okay.

1678
02:32:24,040 --> 02:32:25,000
 Thank you, sir.

1679
02:32:25,000 --> 02:32:26,200
 Brandon.

1680
02:32:26,200 --> 02:32:34,920
 That is the basis of my appeal is the word also earlier in the same paragraph.

1681
02:32:34,920 --> 02:32:39,720
 It speaks of the junior leaders throughout the book, junior leaders and subordinates

1682
02:32:39,720 --> 02:32:40,920
 are used interchangeably.

1683
02:32:40,920 --> 02:32:46,440
 I have a couple examples on page 31.

1684
02:32:47,560 --> 02:32:56,440
 The term, just out of two sentences, it says a leader does not take credit for his or her

1685
02:32:56,440 --> 02:33:01,240
 team's success, but bestows that honor upon his subordinate leaders and team members.

1686
02:33:01,240 --> 02:33:08,440
 When a leader sets an example and expects this from his junior leaders within the team,

1687
02:33:08,440 --> 02:33:10,920
 the mind sets to the team's culture at every level.

1688
02:33:10,920 --> 02:33:16,200
 It's just one example and there are a couple others where subordinates and junior leaders

1689
02:33:16,200 --> 02:33:18,040
 are used interchangeably.

1690
02:33:18,040 --> 02:33:25,480
 And then back to the page 171 in the same paragraph, it starts out with where the leaders

1691
02:33:25,480 --> 02:33:28,600
 must place full faith and trust in their junior leaders.

1692
02:33:28,600 --> 02:33:34,920
 Then it goes on to say also in their senior leaders indicating the two answers of A and D.

1693
02:33:42,360 --> 02:33:51,720
 The department recommendation is to accept the appeal and accept both A and D as correct

1694
02:33:51,720 --> 02:33:52,200
 answers.

1695
02:33:52,200 --> 02:33:57,560
 The book states that frontline leaders must have faith and trust in junior leaders as

1696
02:33:57,560 --> 02:34:01,480
 well as stating frontline leaders must have trust and confidence in their senior leaders.

1697
02:34:01,480 --> 02:34:09,640
 Now, I guess the question for you is, are junior leaders, is the term junior leader

1698
02:34:09,640 --> 02:34:13,480
 and the answer of their subordinates the same thing?

1699
02:34:13,480 --> 02:34:15,560
 I don't know.

1700
02:34:15,560 --> 02:34:16,360
 Maybe, maybe not.

1701
02:34:16,360 --> 02:34:26,200
 I did identify this question as a previously used question, which was confusing.

1702
02:34:26,200 --> 02:34:32,760
 So the department's recommendation is to accept A and D.

1703
02:34:37,000 --> 02:34:40,840
 Okay, questions?

1704
02:34:40,840 --> 02:34:42,040
 Mr. Ramsey, this is Cody.

1705
02:34:42,040 --> 02:34:43,000
 I would like to pose.

1706
02:34:43,000 --> 02:34:45,080
 Okay, I was coming next.

1707
02:34:45,080 --> 02:34:46,360
 Okay, sorry.

1708
02:34:46,360 --> 02:34:48,280
 I know when you're ready.

1709
02:34:48,280 --> 02:34:50,760
 Go ahead.

1710
02:34:50,760 --> 02:34:55,960
 Okay, in that paragraph that they're talking about, I see where they're talking about the

1711
02:34:55,960 --> 02:35:01,480
 keyword also, but in that paragraph, it never mentions subordinates.

1712
02:35:01,480 --> 02:35:02,840
 It just mentions junior leaders.

1713
02:35:03,480 --> 02:35:07,720
 It also just says that they must have trust in junior leaders wherein the question, the

1714
02:35:07,720 --> 02:35:12,840
 key word is confidence, trust and confidence, which is senior leaders in that paragraph.

1715
02:35:12,840 --> 02:35:14,040
 It's word for word in the book.

1716
02:35:14,040 --> 02:35:16,600
 I know we've done a lot of that today.

1717
02:35:16,600 --> 02:35:21,480
 You know, it's off keywords.

1718
02:35:21,480 --> 02:35:22,280
 One is trust.

1719
02:35:22,280 --> 02:35:23,240
 One is confidence.

1720
02:35:23,240 --> 02:35:27,880
 Nowhere does it say confidence in junior leaders, confidence in subordinates,

1721
02:35:27,880 --> 02:35:30,200
 confidences in your senior leaders.

1722
02:35:33,000 --> 02:35:34,360
 Okay, thank you, Cody.

1723
02:35:34,360 --> 02:35:37,400
 Finally speak also.

1724
02:35:37,400 --> 02:35:43,720
 It is not exactly word for word since they do leave out the word also,

1725
02:35:43,720 --> 02:35:46,920
 which indicates the two answers.

1726
02:35:46,920 --> 02:35:48,280
 That's it.

1727
02:35:48,280 --> 02:35:52,440
 It's almost more word for word, leaving out one, two word.

1728
02:35:52,440 --> 02:35:59,240
 Okay, commissioners, questions?

1729
02:36:03,000 --> 02:36:04,360
 No, I'd entertain a motion.

1730
02:36:04,360 --> 02:36:14,200
 I make the motion that we sustain the key of accepting both answers.

1731
02:36:14,200 --> 02:36:18,200
 That's

1732
02:36:18,200 --> 02:36:22,200
 I'm sorry.

1733
02:36:22,200 --> 02:36:27,320
 Sustain the key means that it would be D only.

1734
02:36:28,280 --> 02:36:35,240
 If you accept A and D, then make that motion.

1735
02:36:35,240 --> 02:36:39,640
 Well, I thought that there was a change made

1736
02:36:39,640 --> 02:36:45,080
 on that page where it says department response was accept.

1737
02:36:45,080 --> 02:36:47,080
 But we have to approve.

1738
02:36:47,080 --> 02:36:52,840
 So the motion has to be to approve A and D, to accept A and D.

1739
02:36:52,840 --> 02:36:57,880
 Okay, I will amend my motion to say we will accept both A and D.

1740
02:36:57,880 --> 02:36:58,280
 Thank you.

1741
02:36:58,280 --> 02:37:01,560
 It's confusing and it's late.

1742
02:37:01,560 --> 02:37:05,240
 That's why you're the big honcho.

1743
02:37:05,240 --> 02:37:10,040
 Review the vice chair thing.

1744
02:37:10,040 --> 02:37:11,400
 No, no, I'm kidding.

1745
02:37:11,400 --> 02:37:11,800
 I'm kidding.

1746
02:37:11,800 --> 02:37:14,360
 No, we cannot.

1747
02:37:14,360 --> 02:37:17,160
 All right, any discussion?

1748
02:37:17,160 --> 02:37:19,160
 No.

1749
02:37:19,160 --> 02:37:23,960
 All in favor of accepting A and D, say aye.

1750
02:37:23,960 --> 02:37:25,160
 Aye.

1751
02:37:27,400 --> 02:37:28,440
 No opposition.

1752
02:37:28,440 --> 02:37:28,760
 Okay.

1753
02:37:28,760 --> 02:37:37,560
 Again, I won't make it as long, but for you guys that are doing the drivers,

1754
02:37:37,560 --> 02:37:46,440
 same thing I said to the others, that you take the time and the energy to study,

1755
02:37:46,440 --> 02:37:52,680
 to try to make yourself better for all of us is noted and truly appreciated.

1756
02:37:52,680 --> 02:37:55,800
 More so than most people in the city will ever know.

1757
02:37:56,520 --> 02:37:59,240
 And so thank you.

1758
02:37:59,240 --> 02:38:06,360
 Don't let this experience, however you feel about it, deter you from doing it again

1759
02:38:06,360 --> 02:38:11,080
 in a year, whenever the test is given again.

1760
02:38:11,080 --> 02:38:14,840
 But thank you for your service to all of us in the community.

1761
02:38:14,840 --> 02:38:20,360
 I'd also like to say thank you for your diligence, your scholarship,

1762
02:38:20,360 --> 02:38:25,000
 and your hard work to improve yourselves and to improve the community.

1763
02:38:25,000 --> 02:38:26,200
 Thank you very, very much.

1764
02:38:26,520 --> 02:38:30,440
 All right.

1765
02:38:30,440 --> 02:38:32,360
 If I can find my agenda.

1766
02:38:32,360 --> 02:38:33,000
 There it is.

1767
02:38:33,000 --> 02:38:43,480
 Do we need to go back just for to check real quickly with Stephanie or Crystal,

1768
02:38:43,480 --> 02:38:45,960
 just real quickly go down the answers to make sure.

1769
02:38:45,960 --> 02:38:50,200
 We can start with captains if you'd like to.

1770
02:38:50,200 --> 02:38:50,920
 Okay.

1771
02:38:50,920 --> 02:38:53,400
 So question two, we have sustained the answer key.

1772
02:38:54,120 --> 02:38:58,200
 That was a motion by Commissioner Baines and seconded by you, Commissioner Ramsey.

1773
02:38:58,200 --> 02:39:01,560
 Question five is sustain the answer key.

1774
02:39:01,560 --> 02:39:05,320
 It was motioned by Commissioner Blanton and seconded by Baines.

1775
02:39:05,320 --> 02:39:08,680
 Question 60, sustain the answer key.

1776
02:39:08,680 --> 02:39:12,200
 Again, motion by Blanton and seconded by Baines.

1777
02:39:12,200 --> 02:39:15,480
 Question 65 was sustain the answer key.

1778
02:39:15,480 --> 02:39:22,600
 And I do have notes from both Commissioner Baines and Blanton about the wording of the question.

1779
02:39:24,440 --> 02:39:26,200
 So that was a sustain the answer key.

1780
02:39:26,200 --> 02:39:30,520
 And Commissioner Baines made the motion with Commissioner Blanton seconding the motion.

1781
02:39:30,520 --> 02:39:36,360
 Question 85 is accept both C as in cat and D as in dog.

1782
02:39:36,360 --> 02:39:41,400
 And that was made by Commissioner Blanton and seconded by Commissioner Baines.

1783
02:39:41,400 --> 02:39:45,080
 Question 91, the appellant withdrew their appeal.

1784
02:39:45,080 --> 02:39:50,200
 Question 97, accept both A and B as in boy.

1785
02:39:50,840 --> 02:39:54,360
 That was a motion by Commissioner Blanton and seconded by Ramsey.

1786
02:39:54,360 --> 02:39:55,640
 Is that correct?

1787
02:39:55,640 --> 02:39:56,760
 Yes.

1788
02:39:56,760 --> 02:40:01,800
 On the vote, Mr. Baines opposed.

1789
02:40:01,800 --> 02:40:02,840
 Yes, I do have that.

1790
02:40:02,840 --> 02:40:04,760
 I'm sorry, Mr. Baines opposed.

1791
02:40:04,760 --> 02:40:06,680
 Two to one.

1792
02:40:06,680 --> 02:40:07,320
 Okay.

1793
02:40:07,320 --> 02:40:12,920
 And then for driver appeals, we have question number 23 was sustain the answer key.

1794
02:40:12,920 --> 02:40:16,440
 And that was a motion by Commissioner Blanton and seconded by Ramsey.

1795
02:40:16,440 --> 02:40:20,280
 Question 29, the appellant withdrew their appeal.

1796
02:40:20,920 --> 02:40:23,480
 Question 48, sustain the answer key.

1797
02:40:23,480 --> 02:40:27,320
 Motion by Commissioner Baines and seconded by Commissioner Blanton.

1798
02:40:27,320 --> 02:40:32,680
 Question 70, the first motion was to accept both A and C.

1799
02:40:32,680 --> 02:40:34,920
 That did not pass.

1800
02:40:34,920 --> 02:40:36,360
 It was a vote of one to two.

1801
02:40:36,360 --> 02:40:40,040
 The second motion was to sustain the answer key.

1802
02:40:40,040 --> 02:40:44,440
 That was motion by Commissioner Baines and seconded by Blanton.

1803
02:40:44,440 --> 02:40:45,960
 But I had some confusion on that.

1804
02:40:45,960 --> 02:40:47,240
 Was that Commissioner Blanton?

1805
02:40:47,240 --> 02:40:49,080
 Did you second that one?

1806
02:40:51,400 --> 02:40:56,120
 Yes, I made the original motion that I, based on discussion, changed my mind.

1807
02:40:56,120 --> 02:40:57,400
 Okay.

1808
02:40:57,400 --> 02:40:57,720
 All right.

1809
02:40:57,720 --> 02:41:00,520
 And that was a vote from two to one.

1810
02:41:00,520 --> 02:41:03,880
 Commissioner Ramsey opposed it.

1811
02:41:03,880 --> 02:41:08,280
 And then question 95, accept both A and D as in dog.

1812
02:41:08,280 --> 02:41:13,320
 Commissioner Baines made the motion.

1813
02:41:13,320 --> 02:41:16,760
 I think Commissioner Blanton, you made this second as well, correct?

1814
02:41:19,880 --> 02:41:21,480
 Yes, I think so.

1815
02:41:21,480 --> 02:41:21,980
 Okay.

1816
02:41:21,980 --> 02:41:24,040
 And that carried three to zero.

1817
02:41:24,040 --> 02:41:26,700
 All right.

1818
02:41:26,700 --> 02:41:28,360
 Thank you.

1819
02:41:28,360 --> 02:41:30,680
 That was just checking to make sure we got everything.

1820
02:41:30,680 --> 02:41:32,920
 Make sure our records are the same.

1821
02:41:32,920 --> 02:41:41,640
 Next item of business on the agenda is the date of the next Civil Service Commission meeting.

1822
02:41:41,640 --> 02:41:48,120
 So we have reserved the room for April 29th.

1823
02:41:50,040 --> 02:41:52,920
 As we've discussed before, we do have to reserve the room still.

1824
02:41:52,920 --> 02:41:57,640
 I'm not sure when Governor Abbott is going to allow us to meet in person again.

1825
02:41:57,640 --> 02:41:59,720
 So we're still going through the process of

1826
02:41:59,720 --> 02:42:02,200
 reserving the room and having DTV booked and everything.

1827
02:42:02,200 --> 02:42:06,040
 So we are scheduled for April 29th.

1828
02:42:06,040 --> 02:42:12,040
 Since Commissioner Prado Carrillo is not with us right now,

1829
02:42:12,040 --> 02:42:17,000
 if we wanted to look at moving that time up,

1830
02:42:17,000 --> 02:42:20,040
 we could possibly, we could not do that.

1831
02:42:20,040 --> 02:42:20,440
 I'm sorry.

1832
02:42:20,440 --> 02:42:23,560
 There are two, there's another meeting that day as well.

1833
02:42:23,560 --> 02:42:25,000
 So we're booked in the afternoon.

1834
02:42:25,000 --> 02:42:28,780
 Okay.

1835
02:42:28,780 --> 02:42:30,280
 Is that the 3.30 start time?

1836
02:42:30,280 --> 02:42:32,040
 Yes, it is.

1837
02:42:32,040 --> 02:42:37,560
 Is there any urgency?

1838
02:42:37,560 --> 02:42:38,920
 This is a question for Mike.

1839
02:42:38,920 --> 02:42:45,160
 Is there any urgency to the results of the testing?

1840
02:42:47,320 --> 02:42:51,560
 At this point, now that the decisions have been made,

1841
02:42:51,560 --> 02:42:53,000
 is there any urgency?

1842
02:42:53,000 --> 02:42:55,080
 Do we need this before the 29th?

1843
02:42:55,080 --> 02:42:59,080
 No, they can be put placed on the agenda for the 29th.

1844
02:42:59,080 --> 02:43:03,880
 Okay, that's fine because that's probably going to be the main item on the agenda.

1845
02:43:03,880 --> 02:43:10,360
 And if you need it sooner than that, then we could probably move it up

1846
02:43:10,360 --> 02:43:17,880
 because if that's the main item, then it will be dependent on you getting the scores redone

1847
02:43:17,880 --> 02:43:20,440
 because we're approving the eligibility lists.

1848
02:43:20,440 --> 02:43:24,520
 So, but that day works for the fire department.

1849
02:43:24,520 --> 02:43:25,160
 All right.

1850
02:43:25,160 --> 02:43:27,640
 If you don't need it, if there's no urgency there,

1851
02:43:27,640 --> 02:43:36,040
 we'll just go with our normal regularly scheduled times and go forth.

1852
02:43:36,040 --> 02:43:39,160
 So is there anything else for the good of the order?

1853
02:43:40,360 --> 02:43:43,720
 Stephanie?

1854
02:43:43,720 --> 02:43:44,680
 Thank you.

1855
02:43:44,680 --> 02:43:45,080
 Michael?

1856
02:43:45,080 --> 02:43:46,200
 Krista?

1857
02:43:46,200 --> 02:43:47,560
 No?

1858
02:43:47,560 --> 02:43:53,080
 If not, then we'll tell the motion that we adjourn at 6/22.

1859
02:43:53,080 --> 02:43:58,280
 Salute.

1860
02:43:58,280 --> 02:44:02,760
 In a second.

1861
02:44:02,760 --> 02:44:03,960
 Oh, okay.

1862
02:44:03,960 --> 02:44:06,280
 I was afraid I was going to die because it didn't have a second.

1863
02:44:06,280 --> 02:44:11,880
 I feel like you guys have definitely hazed me today, but it's fine.

1864
02:44:11,880 --> 02:44:15,880
 All in favor of adjournment, say aye.

1865
02:44:15,880 --> 02:44:16,840
 Aye.

1866
02:44:16,840 --> 02:44:18,120
 Aye.

1867
02:44:18,120 --> 02:44:19,640
 Meeting's adjourned.

1868
02:44:19,640 --> 02:44:20,360
 Thank you, Jamie.

1869
02:44:20,360 --> 02:44:25,240
 Thank you to our fire department.

1870
02:44:25,240 --> 02:44:26,440
 They do all the real work.

1871
02:44:26,440 --> 02:44:27,480
 We just talk a lot.

1872
02:44:27,480 --> 02:44:33,080
 Thank you, everyone.