Mar 15, 2021 Historic Landmark Commission on 2021-03-15 3:00 PM

Thank you and good afternoon, everybody. The first thing I want to make note of is that we do have a quorum of five of us here. So it is lawfully met. This is our March 15th regularly scheduled meeting. Why don't we start out today with the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag. Altogether, I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Next up, the Texas Pledge. Honor the Texas flag. I pledge allegiance to the Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible. All right. Thanks, everybody. I think we have a couple of things we need to get to today. And first up on our agenda is HLC 21-012, which is to have an introduction of our new Historic Landmark Preservation Officer. And I will turn that to Ron. Great. Welcome, everyone. I'm happy to announce that our Historic Preservation Officer, Cameron Robertson, who's here, joined us last month. She's already got started on a number of items, so I won't steal her thunder. So I'm just going to turn it over to Cameron and have herself introduce herself. Thanks, Ron. So good afternoon, everyone. I'm excited to finally meet some of you. So like Roy said, I just wanted to start off with a short introduction, and then we can get into our next agenda item. So as you all know, my name is Cameron Robertson, and I'm the new HPO. I'm originally from Dallas, Texas, and I've been on the East Coast for the 12 years prior to coming to Denton. I originally worked as a civil engineer, so that's my background. I went to George Washington University, and I practiced civil engineering for two years at the city of Erie, Pennsylvania, where I was also involved with Preservation Erie, which is a nonprofit involved with smart urban design and historic preservation policy. After two years of working in Erie, I decided to pursue a dual master's at Columbia University in urban planning and historic preservation. I was in that program from 2014 to 2017. During that time, I worked on multiple publications related to preservation and planning. One of those opportunities was working for the World Monuments Fund in Lalibela, Ethiopia, which was really a wonderful opportunity focusing on the future development in and around the World Heritage Site, the Rockhune Churches. Another project I worked on while in grad school is I worked on my thesis or my dissertation. That was focused around preservation policy in arts and cultural districts, and my case study was based in the River North Arts District in Denver, Colorado. So after doing that for three years, I ended up working for AKRF, which is an environmental consulting group in New York City, working on city environmental quality review and state environmental quality reviews. One of my favorite projects during that time was I worked on a four-year project, large-scale survey, working at the National Register level, where we looked at the Hudson River Valley, as well as Staten Island, Queens, Brooklyn, multiple of those counties, and we looked in the floodplain area for historic resources. So like I said, that was a four-year process, large-scale survey. We ended up recommending over 25 historic districts. We found over 2,000 resources, so that by far was one of my favorite projects. But after doing New York for six years, I decided I really wanted to come back to my home state, and I was able to find the opportunity to work with Denton, and I'm really excited to be here, and if you guys have any questions, that's my introduction. Well, we're a silent bunch today so far. So the Columbia University was actually on Manhattan, right? Yes, it's in Harlem. Yeah, I've walked by there, but obviously spent quite a bit of time there on Manhattan and various trips. Okay, well, why don't we, I think you're also our next agenda item, which is HLC 21-021 odd number, so what? Ron, should Cameron just blaze into that one? Yeah, she sincerely can. You have the floor. Okay, I'm going to share my screen. Can everyone see my screen? Okay. Let me get into slideshows. So for today's agenda item, I wanted us to discuss the THC CLG requirements and have a discussion about these requirements. So as you can see, and as I'm sure you saw on the agenda, is that there are 11 requirements required for cities who have CLG. So as you can see on the presentation, we have Adopt and Maintain and Historic Preservation Ordinance, which is, I consider us to be ongoing. We have the HPO and HLC, which you can see at the bottom here, which I believe obviously we've met. We have requirement four, which is the Enforcement of HP Ordinance, which is considered to be ongoing as well, as well as we have, we adopted the Secretary of Interior standards. But I kind of want to focus on what requirements six, seven, eight, and 10. As you can see, public participation. Obviously I'm new here. I'm not sure what has been done in the past, but just from conversations and just some of my own research, I feel like that's one of the things that we really need to focus on as an HLC and HPO is getting that public participation, as well as the survey and inventory system. We do have past surveys, and we do have that inventory system, but it's not being necessarily up kept. So that's something I would like to discuss as well. Also in terms of requirement eight, which is the National Register Nomination Review, I know we have a few nominations or National Register districts that just came on board that have actually been designated within Denton. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure if HLC was involved with that review. So I believe that's something that we need to make sure that we, HLC and myself as HPO, become involved in that process. Also, as you can see, we have the THC monitoring, which I believe we're doing well. Then the HLC and HPO training. Once again, I'm not sure what was done in the past, but I believe this is something we need to focus on, especially keeping people up to date with what's going on in the preservation world today and continuing to the future. Then requirement 11 is the CLG Annual Report, which is ongoing, and I filled out this past February with Ron's assistance, but we seem to be good on that. So just some of the suggestions that I had for this was, as you can see on the right-hand side, I have it kind of in terms of level of priority, from high to low, but I believe all of these should be ongoing. The first, I think, is the most important is we really need rules of procedure. I think this would really assist us in guiding HLC operations, helping us administer the preservation plan, and I think that also leads kind of into the annual HLC work plan. So as I have an example on the slide, THC has a new preservation boot camp, so that would be great to implement each year into our annual HLC work plan. But prior to that, I really do believe that we need to start getting a really good inventory and survey system in place, because currently we're just working off of PDF documents, and I think that can be overly complicated, and I think if we had an ongoing system that we're continuously filling in with demolitions, alterations, and the like, I think that would be really important. And then my last point on the level of priority, but that should be ongoing, is definitely public outreach, and one example that I've already encountered a few times is I've had a few professionals reach out to me asking if the HPO or HLC had a list put together of historic preservation conscious professionals in terms of architects, home inspectors, real estate agents, so I really think that could be, as an example, that could be a good first step in our public outreach. But with that, I would love to open up a discussion with everyone. >> I guess I'll kind of start off, Mary Anderson. I live in the historic district. I think I'm the sole member that lives in the historic district, so that is my representation. So I speak for many, not all, of course, because the historic district has many landlords who don't give a rat's patootie about historic preservation currently. So I think we need to raise their awareness of some of the benefits. I am a little concerned about the last item you mentioned about a list of people. Sounds like we're starting into Angie's list or what's the other guy's list, and I can see that it's going to cause a lot of, shall we say, discussions on who gets included, how do they get included, how are we going to vet them, are we going to be responsible for having vetted them when somebody uses them and they aren't historically conscious? I think legally, this could be a real can of worms, and I worry about such a list from that person. I mean, I would love to have one, but people in the neighborhood talk, so we already know the name of the person you go to for a good painting that's more historically conscious, so I do worry about that list. Okay, thank you, Mary. I think you said public input and public information was one of the first things you talked about. What do you have in mind there? In terms of public input and participation, so my main focus is just drawing the community in. I think, for example, I haven't shared what I'm hoping, but one of the things is I am currently in the works of putting together an Instagram. I know some people don't necessarily see Instagram as being this huge platform that can draw all these people in, but it really can if it's utilized correctly. It can provide education. It can provide training. It can provide just everyday knowledge that someone might not have, and I believe that's one of the things coming in. I feel like there's not a lot of younger generation participation. There's a lot of people who obviously live in the historic districts, which is amazing, but I think we need to reach past the historic districts and get that public participation. Like I said, for example, the Instagram, that's one of the things I'm working on right now. Also, I'm starting to research our tax ordinances just to see if those can be used past a certain point of just the historic districts itself, but that's still in the process. Those are two of my examples, I guess, of public participation and having people be more involved in the preservation process. Andrew? Hi there. Hey, I'm Angie Scrippling. I also live in a historic district, and I think it's interesting that you say reaching out to the community, and because one of the things that Mary talked about were landlords as well, but I believe that a lot of the properties around me that are rental properties are by management companies, and so I think getting management companies also involved, but the people that are living at these properties need to be involved. The people that are living in these, they are still our citizens here, and we need to do something to bring them in, so I'm really glad to hear that you just say as a community and not just property owners. I mean, I think property owners need to be included too, but the people living there do, so thanks for including that. The question I have is would you, but I understand that we want to target the city overall, but would you even be doing things like, oh, I don't know what to call it, national night out in historic districts where we're there and we have, I don't know, someone dressed up as Abraham Lincoln, or you know what I mean? In other words, things that are fun in the communities that we set up and not necessarily spend a lot of money or any money, but just start to emphasize that these historic neighborhoods in Denton are so much the soul of this town, but people are going to participate if it's something fun to do. No, I completely agree, Roy. That's one of the things I'm interested in as well. I really would love for us to all work together to put together a preservation month. That can be the historic districts. It could be the larger community of Denton. It could be telling history about different neighborhoods, about the downtown square. I believe there's so much opportunity that we have that we haven't maybe necessarily been able to grasp in the past, but I really feel that there's so many ways in a fun way to educate people about preservation and really get people involved and excited because preservation isn't so specific in terms of it's just a building. It's a culture. It's a community. It's that history of that community. It's a history of that culture. I think that's something we need to bring to the table and be able to share with our community. Cassandra? Will there be an opportunity to create maybe pamphlets or something electronically to send to the schools and maybe it be part of the curriculum somewhere within the program because the continuation of this is going to be based upon people behind us who know the importance and the history. It could be like if you do like a preservation week, maybe encourage the schools to have some type of presentation before that and maybe create an activity for the schools to get involved as well. I think that's a wonderful idea. I haven't thought yet to that next phase or stage, but I think that would be wonderful to have each school have some type of involvement with a preservation week or a class where they're able to learn about preservation. They're able to learn about their community in a different way besides just history class. I think that's a great recommendation, Cassandra. I've written that down. Yeah. Melody? If I miss somebody, just speak up. I'm Melody Cohode. I am the representative for the Denton County Historical Commission. We do, when we're not under a rural pandemic, we try to do a lot of community education and outreach and we do a lot of it at the historic park. Anywhere where we have a designation, it can be a house that has a historic marker, an historic place. I would suggest that piggybacking onto something rather than trying to reinvent the wheel again. Once you get your feet on the ground, the gals at the Office of History and Culture, they're wonderful. They would be a great resource for you. Thank you, Melody. That's helpful information. I've written that down as well. I had a question about that. You mentioned the Texas Historic Commission Boot Camp. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Because a couple of years ago, there was something in St. Louis where several people went to a conference or something. I thought it was local. Maybe Ron, you can remember. I thought it was more in Texas. I thought it was inside of Texas. Ron, did you go? I didn't go. I know that Roman had some folks go, but that is certainly something that we can certainly continue to do. I think educating the Commission is an important thing. We want to make sure that there are opportunities, if there are opportunities, that the HLC can attend those training or conferences. That's okay. I think the boot camp isn't that online this year? Yes. That's what I was about to say. They added a 14 module training online. We just received an email about it. The CLGs just received an email about it, I believe, on Friday regarding the preservation boot camp. That will be available. You can take those classes. Then you're sent a certificate. They'll be aware that you've taken that course already. It's a great online resource. I can share that with you all. It's on the THC website. It's just their preservation boot camp. Okay. Is it really for historic landmark commissions around Texas or preservation officers or who? It's for all CLGs. It's for anyone who is on a commission or an HPO. They get that continuing education so that they're able to be in good standing with THC. Cameron, I think Cassandra had a great idea. I'm going to say hello to you, Cassandra, because I've not met you face-to-face, though. Hello. She mentioned getting the schools involved. If we're thinking right now, just discussing things that we would like to really have happen. We have an ATC here in Ditten, where students are putting together media productions and things like that. Through this pandemic, I've been watching a lot about England and history there. Wouldn't it be great if we could get maybe students involved and do really neat productions and do it in segments, not maybe a long one, but segments of the history of Ditten and some of these buildings, and go downtown? Maybe we could get some involvement there with the schools even. That's kind of a long project and plan. I really like getting communities involved for smaller things that we can get going quicker. Maybe for a long term, that's something we could put in a plan. No, I think that's wonderful. I think the more involvement, especially with these younger generations, the better. I think it won't hurt us. It will only help us as a community to have them involved from an early age and moving forward, because it gets them excited. A lot of people don't know specifically about the preservation field. They don't understand it necessarily. I think that's great. Maybe even an exploration of the type of careers that are in this, because I've not heard of your position before, growing up and thinking, "Oh, I want to be a historic preservation officer." That wasn't anything that I would have thought to consider. Maybe also a segue, how you can segue into, because your background is impressive and you've done a lot. I'm just not anything I would have thought about, so maybe look at a way we can do that. And Melody, part of what you all do is that information that's included or a booth that's set up during the Denton community market days down by those historic homes. Is anything happening there during market days that would draw people in to get information? I'm new to the commission, so I'm going to have a lot of questions that probably people already have addressed, so forgive me. The Bayless Selby House is open during the time of the community market, so people are able to go in. As events come up, like archeology or whatever, we do have events on the lawn outside of the house on Saturdays during market times, so it does get used to promote the museums in town during market days. Was that your question? Yes, thank you. Okay, anything else, anyone? I'm almost there. There was public participation, survey, and inventory. I don't remember you talking about that nomination review. Those two topics, I don't remember you saying too much about. Are they not prioritized? So I can use an example, but obviously, like I said during the presentation, just correct me if I'm wrong, but recently, we had a National Register designation and not a nomination within Denton called the West Denton Residential Historic District. From what I understand, HLC did not get to comment on the nomination originally. It just kind of went through the process, which is amazing that it was designated, but in terms of having the interaction between the public, the public being able to comment on it, the HLC being able to comment on it, we were kind of skipped over. So that is what I mean in terms of National Register nominations. I feel that HLC needs to have a larger role, and so that's one of my comments with the rules of procedure and hopefully an annual HLC work plan that can be incorporated. So that's one of the requirements to be in good standing with THC in terms of their CLG program. So that's an example of that. And Marin, can you remind me of your other question? I apologize. I guess it was the nomination review and survey and inventory. I mean, what has the city done in survey and inventory? I think the issue may have been related to the fact the city did not wish to participate in doing any of the work for a nomination. I think it was their choice. You make it sound like they weren't invited. They were invited. I do know a little bit about this, so I know they were invited. And they chose not to. And so I think that recognizing all groups that participate and contribute quite significantly should probably exist. No, I'm not. I'm not arguing that. I agree. I believe they should. Everyone should be able to participate. However, to be a CLG, HLC is supposed to be commenting on these nominations. And from what I understand, as I'm only about a month and a half in, they did not get to comment on that nomination. They got to comment, but they chose not to participate with it. Do you see the difference? There was a choice. HLC got to comment or the city? The city chose not to participate. Therefore, HLC was not participating. So it was above our district if the city chooses not to. I think moving forward, we certainly, as Cameron mentioned, we want to make sure that we do participate and be involved, not only with the NRs, national registers, but also any surveys that we are looking at other parts of the city. We want to make sure that we have everyone's involvement, including the HLC. So that work plan that Cameron is talking about is going to be important as we identify and prioritize the implementation of the Historic Reservation Plan. We'll certainly pull some areas and from that plan recommendations and present that to the commission and start to again develop that work plan. And Cameron, I had one question. So for instance, it sounds like, and I wish we could all, and hopefully it'll be soon, meet in person because maybe we need almost like a work session that is not necessarily minutes. I know we have to be careful of the Open Meetings Act, but I think if we're not conducting business or considering agenda items, where we brainstorm, where we talk about, okay, well, let's divide just into stuff we want to tackle this year or this summer and then prioritize and then maybe even have people volunteer on the commission and say, okay, we'll run with this and come back with three ideas. So what are the rules? I mean, Ron, you guys can jump in and just say, okay, well, maybe by July or something, we could do that. It's so much easier when we're all in a room where we can just sort of brainstorm. Well, what is our number one objective between now and a year from now? I'm gonna leave that to Ron and Matt to answer. I'll chime in and then Mackie can correct me if I'm wrong, but we certainly want to make sure that we have a brainstorming workshop. But in my opinion, that's something that we most likely would like to post and we can certainly have it here and host it here at City Hall. Obviously there are things that we have to consider, what the city, as far as their provisions, as far as meeting, as well as making sure that everyone on the commission wants to participate, is able to participate. So just because we're able to meet doesn't mean that most folks are comfortable. So we just have to be careful, but we definitely would like to see something like that happen sooner so that we can again develop that work plan that we're all talking about. Okay. Thanks, Ron. Anybody else on this topic? Seeing no waves. Melody's grabbing your chin. Okay. Well, then we'll move on to the next item, item for consideration 3A, HLC 21-017. That's consider approval of the January 11th, 2021 meetings, minutes rather of the meeting. And I think those were distributed. Any changes or corrections? Well, I'll make the motion to approve the minutes of January 11th, 2021. We have a motion. Is there a second? Mary second? Second, yeah. She was turned off there for a second. Okay. We have a motion and a second. Let's have a vote. All in favor say aye. Raise your hand. Aye. So do we have anyone opposed? Well, that's five, four and none against. And we have some people absent. Okay. Thank you very much. That item is approved. The last thing on our agenda today is election of a chair and vice chair. And I'll let Ron sort of fill us in, but I think we were supposed to have elections last October, September, October, perhaps. And with the COVID, we didn't. And so we're now over, but I think HLC uses a bit of an unusual, we're supposed to use a slightly different election thing. But Ron, if you can sort of fill us in on the procedures that you're suggesting, then we can take it from there. Sure. Let me run that by the commission real quickly. And Roy is absolutely correct. Initially, we would have had this election soon after there were some nominations or appointments that is made by the city council. And that usually happens around the August September timeframe, but due to COVID and due to the push of the election past, you know, that timeframe, it didn't happen until January. So the city council made some nominations, appointments that is, I keep saying nominations. And after that, we are now able to open it up for again, that annual chair and vice chair selection. So that's what we were doing today is to select again, a chair and vice chair for the HLC. The way it works, and I've spoken to our city secretary, is that the chair will open the forum, the floor that is, for nominations. If there are more than one, what happens is that the first nomination will be voted on. And if there is a majority and the majority is five, then that first nomination becomes accepted. However, it does, if it does not get the full majority of five, then the second nomination gets the vote. And again, the requirement is that five votes accepts that nomination for chair. So I have a question at that because there's only five of us here. Does that mean we really have to have three of the five that are our quorum or five of all five? My understanding is five of all five, five majority of the HLC. And if there is not a majority on the second, there's a couple options. One, we can, you know, start the nominations again for chair, or we can postpone this till the next meeting. And maybe there are other folks that were not included in this meeting that will attend. Again, we have a nine member HLC. So there are four that are not with us this afternoon. So that again, that is, that is another option. But for today to select chair, again, the chair will open the floor for nominations, close it, and then we will start the voting on each of the nomination. And likewise, we will do the same for the vice chair. Thanks, Ron. Okay, so at this point, I will open the floor for nominations here. It's certainly conceivable you can nominate yourself, you can nominate. I don't know if you can nominate someone that's on the commission who isn't here, Ron, you want to chirp in on that? Yeah, I think it's important that if we do, I don't think we can, to be honest, because I would like for that person to be able to accept that nomination. Since they're not here, then it'd be difficult to vote on something where that person did not agree or accept their nomination. So it would be the ones that are present that can be nominated. Correct me if there's something that I'm missing, if there's something that needs to be further clarified. Okay, the floor is open. Why don't you start waving or something? All right, Mary, you're up first. Gee, I nominate Roy Anderson for chair. Thank you. All right, go ahead. Who'd you nominate? You. You. Okay, I was telling Ron earlier, right? I'm always the slow guy that the bear eats right when they're... okay, I appreciate that. Any other nominations? Wait, wait, he says we vote. All right, Ron, go ahead. No, I was just making a joke. If there are no other nominations, you can close the floor. But why don't you ask, again, chair, if there are other nominations? I thought I had... Are there any other nominations? Cassandra, help me out here, right? You've got to want to do this. There are no other nominations. Is that your help you were looking for? Actually, that's fine. Now, I think, Ron, this term only runs until we do this again in October, right? Right. So we have, again, the appointments, again, in August of this year. So following that, because, again, that was our annual timeframe. So we will, again, do the election soon after that process has occurred by city council, again, appointing those that have termed out for the HLC. Okay, so that's my prayer there, is what you're saying, get kicked off. No, I'm teasing. Okay, we're going to run this sort of in order. So I guess we have a yay or nay vote will work since we only have one nominee. Cassandra, let's start with you. Yay. Okay, we'll run to Melody. Yay. Mary. Yay. Hey, wait a minute. I figured out how to weigh out. Angie. No, no, no, not allowed. Did you say yes or no? You nominated me. I said yes. Okay, yes. Roy Boatsnake, I'll do it fine. Thank you for your confidence. Now we need a vice chairperson. I'll do the same thing, except I'm going to open the floor by suggesting Mary. Okay, so let's, who else? Go ahead. Nomination I guess we need to ask that question. Yes Mary, will you accept the nomination? I guess so, we've been a pretty good team so far. Yeah, I think so too. But let's open, any other nominations? Anybody else? No one's waving. Okay, so we only have, well, we only, we have a nomination, which will effectively continue our slate to next year. Let's run around. Angie, yes or no? Yes. Roy is yes. Melody? Yes. Cassandra? Yes. And Mary, you said you're one out, right? You can get out now? I know, I know, I know. Okay, well, being vice chair is easier. I only have to cover when you're away. Actually, I think he did three and it may be about that. Anyway, fine. Okay, well, then I will announce to Mr. Ron that we have not, we have elected a chair and a vice chair for the year that will end next August 31st, I believe. And so, but I believe there are no other items on our agenda. So unless there's an objection, we will stand adjourned.