Oh, I think I think Miss Peele gave the countdown. Okay, I couldn't hear
All right. Um, so I want to call to order that i'm charlotte bradshaw vice chair of the port of ethics and
The meeting today is date is february 25th of 2021
We are starting the meeting at 305 pm
And the first item for consideration
Madison, do you want to take role as to who's here? Do you want me to go into the first item?
You can just go into the first item with the I think we we're good on the roll. Okay
All right. The first item for consideration
Uh board of ethics 21 - 007
And this is to consider the approval of the minutes for january 28th of 2021
I'd like to move to approve the minutes for january 28th
Do we have a second I second
Thank you
All right, so the minutes for january 28 the 2021 are
approved in their
Uh form as they are presented at this meeting
Do we need to take a roll call vote trey on this right right if if we're gonna do it by vote
We've got to do it by roll call on a zoom thing. Sorry
Sure, I knew roll call was in there somewhere
Uh the joys of doing this virtually exactly exactly
um
All right, i'm trying to see who's up here so
I'm at uh
So do you want me to just why don't y'all just say your name and then if you approve them, is that okay trey?
Well, what you can do is just just in the order that they appear on your screen
Just go one at a time through them and it'll work that way
Because see i'm not seeing everyone
I see madison. Oh
Is it okay trey if I call them?
Just that's okay
Ron with a phone, but that's it. I don't see everyone else
Does that work for you charlotte if I just call you bet? Okay
um
well
charlotte
uh-huh
Do you approve? I do. Okay, uh annetta. Yes
Uh patricia. Yes
deborah
Yes
don
Yes
bob
You're on mute bob
Oh, you're still on mute
Okay
Somebody needs to let me in ron. Are you trying to join via video? Yes
Can you hear me there we go bob, oh finally love technology
And I believe i'm an alternate so I don't vote
Is that correct
Sorry. Oh, yeah, we're we're voting on approval of last week's uh last month's minutes
But as an alternate, I do not vote correct. No, you can vote because um,
You're a regular member for this meeting. Oh, okay. All right then approve
All right
Um ron they're working to get you in via video
Uh, but do you approve the minutes?
approved
All right
So then I I believe the motion passes
All right, miss brashaw you can now
Now go to the next one
right
Yeah, you can go ahead and claim it or mark it approved now officially and then we'll move on right?
That's what I was just going to do. So the
After a vote of the members present today to approve the minutes of january 28 2021 those minutes in their current form
That was presented are approved
The next item on our agenda is board of ethics 21-008
And it states receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding proposed ethics complaint process
flow charts
All right, and um, so this is
Basically a continuation of our discussion last month. I had presented
These two flow charts that kind of ran through the ethics complaint process
Uh one which kind of was about the preliminary assessment piece and then the second which moved into if there was actually a complaint
um
The board made some suggested changes and I tried to incorporate those into what's presented before you today
um
so
The flow charts are in your backup if y'all have on now, I think if it's okay with you
um vice madam vice chair
I'll just take any any additional, um suggested changes
and
I'll just if you have those just tell me and i'll write them down and then we'll go back through to see if we need to um
Basically to get consensus on changing them
All right
Okay. Um, i'm printing mine right now. I've seen them on the um
Screen but it's a little easier to see in person
Or printed. Sorry. All right. So opening this up for discussion and madison is asking if anybody has any suggested changes
to the flow chart and
Thank you for doing this
I'm a very visual person. This is extremely helpful and I know it took a lot of work
um
So i'll open it up to everyone present. Does anyone have any suggestions for her for her request or modifications?
I just
Really like how you incorporate our comments from last time and it for me as a visual person it flows much more easily
One step to the next. Thank you
Agreed
Does anybody have any discussion about the flow chart or any other suggestions or changes whatsoever?
At dawn part, right? Yes, sir
I don't know if i'm a visual person or or what but I find the flow chart
Or a little bit confusing
And i've gone through these processes on many occasions already
And then when I take the flow chart and I put it with our next agenda
Will we go through the steps that they have?
I think
There needs to I guess I need to understand how they're going to combine the two together
Because it takes the two together to really understand what we're even talking about
And I might make a suggestion also
At the very beginning the city of denton did a process and ethics complaint 101
21 steps on filing this and to me
That makes more sense
Especially if you put it with the flow chart
Uh on if a layperson comes in how a layperson would follow this process through
Uh, but I think just the flow chart by itself is is pretty confusing
my comment
And we do appreciate the work because I know it took a lot of hard work to do it
And so don are you um
So you're saying it's it's harder to reconcile that flow chart with what's in writing, correct?
For those to jive together
Yes, but I think it it
It takes both together
To kind of make sense at all and even when you look across the top of it where you're talking about
What the complainant is supposed to do the city auditor?
What the board would do or the board panel and then the board of ethics and you come back and you get the next page
You get the respondent the board of ethics and the complainant
But when you add the the next two pages to it which gives us six steps
It's clear
But to me, it's still not as clear as what we've what we've had
On our process of ethics complaint 101 that I thought was given to everyone that filed a complaint before
And that's 21 steps, but it's uh, each step is outlined and it's
It makes sense
uh
Uh, just just a thought. I don't know if anyone else has looked at this process on ethics complaint 101, but it's uh,
It's really quite good
And I thought about it when we had our last meeting
But I went through my paperwork and dug through and couldn't find it and finally found it about two days ago
All right
This is bob let me add a
comment after don's
One of the one of the things that I just have never figured out is on page nine the first page
uh, and the top box for the board
Complaint hearing process
And that seems to be a do loop that you don't get out of
But i'm assuming that
The complaint process is then actually
Page 10, is that correct?
correct
All right
Okay, so
I would suggest that that you say something in like in a parenz on that box
See see page 10 or something like that
We can certainly add something like that
Just as a reference. That's the intention is if you get to that step you would go to the next flowchart. Basically, right?
I assumed that but I wasn't sure that was the case. I I used to be
An applications programmer when I got out of the army many many years ago and that was with kobalt
So i'm i'm dating myself. I know that but
flow charts were a very integral part of uh programming back then and
and now
um
I like the idea of of this flow chart
but
I think I and and we are in a little different position than most people who would look at it because we're
familiar with the
ordinance
citations that these things refer to
so
To the extent that I think that this could be enhanced
if each step
had a specific
Reference back to
an ordinance provision or uh
a um
Revision in the the the the plan of the statement of work or the
The the steps that we need to follow then I think that would make it easier for somebody who is not as familiar with us
To look at one of the blocks and say well, what does that mean they can go immediately to that section of the ordinance or the
the uh
the rules
and and and see it so
That's
Bob I don't know if i'm piggybacking on you if that was your uh, uh
That was your suggestion or or not but
Uh, i'm i'm referencing the actual citation in the ordinance or the or the rules
Yeah, i'm not unfamiliar with the flow charts, uh, and sometimes they they they can get confusing but
In terms of making it simple for the folks that don't
Deal with this stuff on a routine basis. I think that's key to uh having this thing be effective
Yeah, I think referring back to the ordinance would be would that would be pretty easy to add wouldn't it madison to go in and add that
um, yes, would it
Help or be more confusing when don was talking about, you know that other document. I know I I don't have it here with me
I know what he's talking about
um, would it be
More confusing to add a reference to that or just keep it right straight to the ordinance like uh, ron was suggesting
and and bob
um
I haven't uh, I i think i'm aware of the document that don is referencing
Um, I haven't looked at it that it wasn't it didn't factor into creating this
um
So one thing we that I could do is take that and see if I how I could match it up to the flow charts
um, or create create something like a a written narrative like that
um document
That would match up to like
to the flow charts
So basically, you know the the first step is that the complainant submits
The complaint form the ethics complaint form, right? And so there would be a backup document that basically says number one
This happens and it has detail like that. So, um
I i'm not sure exactly how the processing ethics complaint 101 document looks but basically
um
We could take create, you know
adjust that to uh
And add it basically to these flow charts so that it was like one kind of process packet, uh with the visuals and the narrative
Yeah, and what you have written, you know, it may be
That it enhances some of the little descriptions or whatever so and yeah, and we could even we could include
Um the references to the ordnance sections on the actual visual or we could include it in um,
that kind of narrative
and um
In I don't want to get off posting because we've separated the two items
But if we created a narrative document, we might not even need this other timeline document
If those timelines were in the narrative
So
But now I think the timeline document to me
makes makes more more sense than uh
the flow chart
both together and kind of
Reading them and working them together. It makes sense, but I still think that the 101 ethics complaint 101 that we already have
Is still simpler than than what we have here today
Or at least that format
Okay
As the first, uh
Document you're referring to solve the problem that we were trying to solve with this
To me it it does it's 21 steps and it's uh
Madison oh yeah, you didn't have that document. I was trying to think of
Yeah, this is page one of it that covers the first three steps. I'll just kind of open it up. Okay
I don't know how I can do it. Oh, that's good. We can see that. Thank you
And it step one is the complaint must be submitted to the proper complaint form to the city auditor
The complaint must be hand delivered via us mail
That's one step one and the next it says the author has excuse me
The auditor has five business days to determine if the complainant is administrative complete and timely
And so it goes through each of those steps
Being 21 steps through the entire process
much like flow chart does but it
I guess there's just more more information in each of the blocks than what the flow chart has
It kind of oh well
I don't know
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I feel like
I first of all, I want to say I know madison has done a ton of work on this and she did a fabulous job
But I think anything we can do to make it very simple and very clear
Is great because it seems like we already put a lot of pressure on the complainant to
not only be the complainant, but maybe even the prosecutor and I
I don't know where that happens
So I I think making it simple would be great
um
Um, well and i'll just add, you know, I think part of the reason
Part of the reason I created the flow charts was
um
To have a visualization, right? So I think don I mean I I see what you're saying about the the 101
um document and I
I I agree that having that available. I don't think it's available to the public right now
um, so I I certainly think we can make that available to the public just make sure that it still lines up with um,
The current ordinance because there have been revisions
um, uh
And then but I I guess I what i'd like from the board is
One should we do that right go go through that revising maybe that process 101 just to make sure it still matches up
And then publicize it
um
And then two does the board still believe that there should be some sort of visual like the flow chart?
To help people who you know, perhaps are better at visuals or any or something like that
um
Should that still be there? And if if yes
We could even package those together, right? So you have the document
Processing a complaint 101. Um, but then we also have a visual
Uh, so that you could look at both
together
That might be really good because like ron said if we have the flow chart that refers
But I mean, I think that 101 that don has you know, it it does refer back and give you a good analysis
And then if we do what ron said and add the here go to this ordinance
um
then that gives
You know right brain left brain
You know whichever direction that that where things sink in I mean i'm i'm a visual person but
But some people aren't so I think it would be good for citizens for
You know to make it easy i'm with aneta like make it as easy as possible and then they have two formats that they can use
To figure out which one they're more comfortable with
Because I feel like if somebody wants to file a complaint, they certainly want to understand
What all this what goes on?
so
yeah brent
I I agree. I think uh presenting
Um the information in as many ways possible to make it accessible
For me looking at the flow because I I worked with logic models for many years and so to see this
I would
Even reading it. I would start diagramming it myself just to figure out what the process was
and so I I
I like the idea of both
I've got a question. Who is the primary audience for the different documents?
Um
We've had city council people we've had political consultants
We've had political pundits
We've had just people off the street have been the ones that have filed a complaint so far
So it's it's almost as wide a variety as if you could possibly have
Yeah, that's a good point
Yeah, and I I think um
originally when I presented this I think the intention was to
Create some some document some documents that could be put on the board's web page city web page so that
um
The process could be made, you know easier to understand than trying to go through the ordinance to understand it
Because they're on the web page. There was just the ethics complaint form at the time
But you know, I also think the board could certainly use it right it's not
You know not excluded from that
um
So that was kind of the intent the intention
I have another I guess comment
I was not able to attend the whole thing last time my my zoom crashed
and
I didn't have the uh
The opportunity for the dialogue
But looking at the timeline
Uh, I find it a bit staggering that uh, it could take this process
196 days
and in terms of
Uh the concept of keeping things simple
uh
to me that
That's going in the opposite direction
I do think that that timeline would be important if someone files a complaint just before an election
and maybe the purpose of the complaint is to
Possibly throw an opponent off track in the middle of their election bid
So I would I would think that there would be times when we would need to slow walk it a little bit and at least
Wait for the election to be over
So that the the election the ethics process isn't causing problems for the candidate
Who at that point needs to focus on getting through their election?
But yeah, I think in general I would hope it would go as fast as possible
I would ask what if the complaint had the ability to sway the election one way or the other?
Uh
Like that would be a good thing
I mean if if somebody was doing something
Unethical in their campaign and then that came out
That that might sway the election
Well that that would
Then slow walking in that particular case would not be a good thing would it
No, and I don't think it would be good if the candidate wasn't doing anything wrong
It would definitely be worse
um
You know because then we've distracted them and and made their election bid even more difficult while somebody just
Filed a complaint that was just political. So that's my concern is that when it's near an election
We need to be very very careful. Let the election take place and then once
Once the election has you know filtered out then hear the complaint
I think if
It was filed and we felt that it had a potential impact on the outcome of the election
if we
Fast walked it and got to a conclusion quickly and the person was exonerated
I think that they would be much happier than if we slow walked it and it
Um impacted them. I I hate to interrupt this conversation. I think we we might be off posting we I think um
if
If we want to have a discussion about
filing complaints
We can certainly put that on an agenda
I actually think that that's a good idea because I think
My office is always going to try to process complaints as fast as possible because of the timelines and if we want to put
some sort of um
If we want to have a practice where we slow walk
or some or or fast walk something during election season, I think that should be like a um,
A a direction that directions that that is received from the whole board and potentially included in the um
So may I request that we put that on the next agenda? We can certainly do that. Okay
I had one more question. I couldn't find it. Um
Did we have a resolution when we were talking about
if the complainant doesn't show up to
Kind of prosecute the hearing that the hearing goes away. I know that proposal was made. Did we make a decision on that?
Because I don't recall a vote
That's in the ordinance
I believe the current ordinance that it's required for the complaint to appear. Um, wow
That's not been made clear, yeah that needs to be in the
Would there be any exceptions to that if a person were not able to be there
My understanding is that um, per the rules of procedure the complainant can request a delay essentially
And I believe we've had that occur in the past, um, because there there was a conflict or something
um
But I believe that can only have occur once i'm really just going off my memory here
But there is a process to where the complainant or the respondent or either I think can um
Request that the hearing be delayed
for cause basically
What part of that and not to put you on the spot madison and I know we're going to do timelines in the next
um
Item
But where what you just said, where would that fall?
on the flow chart
Uh on the flow chart the request for delay
Yeah, I would say um
There's this the box at the top and then the second box under it
That kind of all happens in in that kind of period in between the hearing being scheduled
and um the hearing actually being conducted so I don't think
The delay piece is included specifically, but we can add that
Isn't it on there now where
It says when the complainant
Appears and presents the case
But if he doesn't you know, if there's no appearance the case is dismissed and that's on the flow chart, right?
I think we we have included the the
That the complainant must appear uh and present their case. That's that was added after last time
That was a great suggestion from from the board
But the ability for somebody to delay to request a delay in the hearing
Is not specifically on here, but I do think it would occur in that second
Middle box from the top basically is in the process that starts with receive submitted
Correct. So so we just added that after the last meeting
It was already in the ordinance. We just added it to the flow chart
To make that clear to I have I have a really big issue with that in our ordinance because I think
it is asking a citizen to file a complaint and to act as a prosecutor and I know that
I don't agree with it. But this board wants this to look as much like the role of law as possible
But I don't think that's a good thing. I I think that there should be some separation and someone else should be
Representing that case
Um, i've said it so i'll leave it at that
Would it be possible for the complainant to assign a surrogate if they didn't feel comfortable presenting the presenting the uh,
their complaint
Um, I don't I don't know that that's currently allowed under the ordinance. I i'd have to look trey. Do you have any idea?
I I also think talking about specific
Specifically about that piece of the ordinance is is again trying to kind of getting off posting
We can put that on a on a future agenda as well
You know under hearing four it actually states that uh,
The complainant is required to testify at the hearing a complainant barrier to testify
At a hearing shall be ground for dismissal of the complaint
And that's that's the code
Does that happen in a court of law?
What if party doesn't show up yes, well if the complainant
I mean if there's a crime
um, there's somebody who files a complaint, but I
I don't know that they always have they don't have to present the case. They might testify
I'll just step in and say we're kind of we're we're getting off posting
The postings to talk flowchart specific. Sorry, I I would like to go back at a future meeting, but
Could I ask that we consider that at a future meeting?
Is yes, or am I okay future agenda?
As it relates to that item, I think a little clarification might be required in order to make it an agenda item
Is one thing for the complainant to be required to testify is another thing for the complainant to have a representative that
Helps them present the case
So I think both can under the ordinance both can probably happen
simultaneously
And that's and that's correct and under the ordinance it says both the complainant and the and the
Uh complaining has a right to be represented by council. So the respondent and the complaint
May be represented by council in the ordinance
And in a future meeting, uh, maybe discuss what if it's a whistleblower type complaint when they don't want to be revealed
What do you do about that
If you don't have anything
I believe that there's a prohibition basically from keeping the complaint and its identity. Um a secret
But maybe they wouldn't be present they didn't feel comfortable being present
Have a surrogate I guess I would like to talk about that too like that's concerning
Um, so I
Appreciate the conversation we're having I I do want to just make sure that we don't go too far off posting
um
it
I just i'll summarize kind of where I think we are on the flow charts
um, it seems like we
We want you're giving me direction to go back and take a look at the the processing ethics complaint
uh 101
document to
See how it compares to our current version of the ordinance and make any necessary changes
um
To see how that aligns with the flow charts that we have
And then to bring that back kind of as a package
That when it was approved could then be put um on the board's webpage to
Help the public and and the board if when when needed, uh
Uh know understand the ethics ordinance, uh better
I really like that packet idea and I will say I came on the board later and I never saw that 101 document
So maybe it was just an oversight, but i'm not seeing it. It sounds good
Okay
And i've got a request related to the packet
Uh when you put that together if you will for those of us with no brain rather right or left
Would you put a color?
uh on the part that you're
changing
So that I can look at and say oh that's different. Yes, I for the the 101 process
If there are changes that need to be made i'll i'll present a red line copy basically so that you can see what's what's been changed
Due to the updated ordinance
Then would it be appropriate to call the question because I definitely think that what we're talking about makes sense
Does that sound?
Good to everybody
To add those things to the agenda you mean
Well to to call the question and vote for the packet
I don't know that we actually need to vote it. It's like there's direction to come back
I don't agree with that. Um, unless trey you think differently
No, no, there's not a
Something to call. I think it's just this is more direction oriented than anything else. Okay
Yeah, and that's what the um is to give the staff direction on the notice. So
Anybody else have any more direction
Or you know great suggestions, yeah, I want to thank don for bringing that up because I think that's a good
a good thing to add
All right
And we uh, just as a point of order we didn't call technically call the two items together
So do you want to still call the second item and if there's any?
Um specific questions or thoughts about the the timeline document. Yes
Discuss the second one already
And as a person, I don't know if there's anything else that someone needs to add to it
Yeah, i'll i'll just call it and then if anybody has something that we didn't just discuss
As to this document we can give those suggestions. So
Um board of ethics 21-009 on the agenda
Receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding proposed ethics complaint process timelines
And so we've got the timeline document
And does anyone have anything?
Uh to add or comments or direction or anything for them with regard to this document that we didn't discuss
A moment ago in 21-008
I would request I think i'm still a little uh unclear about the direction on if
This should continue being a document I work on or if this is being replaced basically by the processing 101
ethics, um document
My feeling is it is a document that you can continue to work on or even blend into the 101
Because to me
This document makes your blow chart work
I mean it's me
I agree
I think being able to give a packet would be
very helpful to people because then they can read it different ways and understand better how to
Play by the rules basically
I've got a comment based on our earlier discussion of this thing
If we have the opportunity to slow walk or fast walk or whatever you want to call it
That needs to be referenced in there
I thought that was something we were maybe going to talk about at the next meeting maybe
Yes
What I heard? Yeah
Yes, I think what my response is our office always processes the complaints as quickly as possible to meet the deadlines that are set out in
the ordinance
um, if there's a a will on the board to
uh have that process be different during election season, um
Then I would think that needs to be formally
decided and
Uh per annettas request, um, we're going to bring that back at a future meeting potentially the next meeting
Okay, we're still kind of just to so y'all know we're still kind of waiting on appointments to be completed
So that we have the the new board seated
So
All right, so I think that takes care of what's on the agenda, um tray is there anything else we need to do before I can
ask for a motion to adjourn or
You don't even need a motion to adjourn if everybody's
I guess to the point of where the last agenda item is now over then you can
Conclude the meeting as we have finished all the items
Okay
All right. So the wait, sorry
Sorry, i'm looking away. I'm so sorry, uh, one more point of order just uh, for the good of the order. Um,
the next meeting is is
Regularly scheduled meeting to occur on the last thursday of march like our normal meetings except for it will be at 10 a.m
instead of 3 p.m. We
Didn't we we just had to switch the times around for that one meeting. Um
so
On the 25th
I believe
Yes, the 25th of march. So, um, oh it's it's laura. We were just uh closing laura
But I was saying that the the next um board of ethic regularly scheduled board meeting
Is march 25th at 10 a.m. Instead of 3 p.m
Um, obviously we'll send out emails with the agenda and reminding everyone of that
But just so you're aware
Okay, sorry everyone, uh, I don't know if anybody's life has been up ended like mine has in the past week with
All of my plumbing not working
Uh, so I apologize for being late. Um, I guess whoever was
Chair can adjourn or I can adjourn if this is the end
Um, and hopefully next week next month we'll get back on track to like actually, uh talking about a little more substantive things
So, um, I guess if madison hasn't already said it, um send her anything
Um, you want to talk about before then we already have some ideas, but um, whatever else so I guess with that i'll adjourn
After not being at the meeting
I'm, sorry, your plumbing's not working. Oh, man
Ours isn't either
Yeah, well old houses. Yeah. Yeah
Okay, um, all right, so I guess we adjourn now that i'm on
- Yes, thank you.
- Thank you.