Feb 25, 2021 Board of Ethics on 2021-02-25 3:00 PM

Oh, I think I think Miss Peele gave the countdown. Okay, I couldn't hear All right. Um, so I want to call to order that i'm charlotte bradshaw vice chair of the port of ethics and The meeting today is date is february 25th of 2021 We are starting the meeting at 305 pm And the first item for consideration Madison, do you want to take role as to who's here? Do you want me to go into the first item? You can just go into the first item with the I think we we're good on the roll. Okay All right. The first item for consideration Uh board of ethics 21 - 007 And this is to consider the approval of the minutes for january 28th of 2021 I'd like to move to approve the minutes for january 28th Do we have a second I second Thank you All right, so the minutes for january 28 the 2021 are approved in their Uh form as they are presented at this meeting Do we need to take a roll call vote trey on this right right if if we're gonna do it by vote We've got to do it by roll call on a zoom thing. Sorry Sure, I knew roll call was in there somewhere Uh the joys of doing this virtually exactly exactly um All right, i'm trying to see who's up here so I'm at uh So do you want me to just why don't y'all just say your name and then if you approve them, is that okay trey? Well, what you can do is just just in the order that they appear on your screen Just go one at a time through them and it'll work that way Because see i'm not seeing everyone I see madison. Oh Is it okay trey if I call them? Just that's okay Ron with a phone, but that's it. I don't see everyone else Does that work for you charlotte if I just call you bet? Okay um well charlotte uh-huh Do you approve? I do. Okay, uh annetta. Yes Uh patricia. Yes deborah Yes don Yes bob You're on mute bob Oh, you're still on mute Okay Okay Somebody needs to let me in ron. Are you trying to join via video? Yes Can you hear me there we go bob, oh finally love technology And I believe i'm an alternate so I don't vote Is that correct Sorry. Oh, yeah, we're we're voting on approval of last week's uh last month's minutes But as an alternate, I do not vote correct. No, you can vote because um, You're a regular member for this meeting. Oh, okay. All right then approve All right Um ron they're working to get you in via video Uh, but do you approve the minutes? approved All right So then I I believe the motion passes All right, miss brashaw you can now Now go to the next one right Yeah, you can go ahead and claim it or mark it approved now officially and then we'll move on right? That's what I was just going to do. So the After a vote of the members present today to approve the minutes of january 28 2021 those minutes in their current form That was presented are approved The next item on our agenda is board of ethics 21-008 And it states receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding proposed ethics complaint process flow charts All right, and um, so this is Basically a continuation of our discussion last month. I had presented These two flow charts that kind of ran through the ethics complaint process Uh one which kind of was about the preliminary assessment piece and then the second which moved into if there was actually a complaint um The board made some suggested changes and I tried to incorporate those into what's presented before you today um so The flow charts are in your backup if y'all have on now, I think if it's okay with you um vice madam vice chair I'll just take any any additional, um suggested changes and I'll just if you have those just tell me and i'll write them down and then we'll go back through to see if we need to um Basically to get consensus on changing them All right Okay. Um, i'm printing mine right now. I've seen them on the um Screen but it's a little easier to see in person Or printed. Sorry. All right. So opening this up for discussion and madison is asking if anybody has any suggested changes to the flow chart and Thank you for doing this I'm a very visual person. This is extremely helpful and I know it took a lot of work um So i'll open it up to everyone present. Does anyone have any suggestions for her for her request or modifications? I just Really like how you incorporate our comments from last time and it for me as a visual person it flows much more easily One step to the next. Thank you Agreed Does anybody have any discussion about the flow chart or any other suggestions or changes whatsoever? At dawn part, right? Yes, sir I don't know if i'm a visual person or or what but I find the flow chart Or a little bit confusing And i've gone through these processes on many occasions already And then when I take the flow chart and I put it with our next agenda Will we go through the steps that they have? I think There needs to I guess I need to understand how they're going to combine the two together Because it takes the two together to really understand what we're even talking about And I might make a suggestion also At the very beginning the city of denton did a process and ethics complaint 101 21 steps on filing this and to me That makes more sense Especially if you put it with the flow chart Uh on if a layperson comes in how a layperson would follow this process through Uh, but I think just the flow chart by itself is is pretty confusing my comment And we do appreciate the work because I know it took a lot of hard work to do it And so don are you um So you're saying it's it's harder to reconcile that flow chart with what's in writing, correct? For those to jive together Yes, but I think it it It takes both together To kind of make sense at all and even when you look across the top of it where you're talking about What the complainant is supposed to do the city auditor? What the board would do or the board panel and then the board of ethics and you come back and you get the next page You get the respondent the board of ethics and the complainant But when you add the the next two pages to it which gives us six steps It's clear But to me, it's still not as clear as what we've what we've had On our process of ethics complaint 101 that I thought was given to everyone that filed a complaint before And that's 21 steps, but it's uh, each step is outlined and it's It makes sense uh Uh, just just a thought. I don't know if anyone else has looked at this process on ethics complaint 101, but it's uh, It's really quite good And I thought about it when we had our last meeting But I went through my paperwork and dug through and couldn't find it and finally found it about two days ago All right This is bob let me add a comment after don's One of the one of the things that I just have never figured out is on page nine the first page uh, and the top box for the board Complaint hearing process And that seems to be a do loop that you don't get out of But i'm assuming that The complaint process is then actually Page 10, is that correct? correct All right Okay, so I would suggest that that you say something in like in a parenz on that box See see page 10 or something like that We can certainly add something like that Just as a reference. That's the intention is if you get to that step you would go to the next flowchart. Basically, right? I assumed that but I wasn't sure that was the case. I I used to be An applications programmer when I got out of the army many many years ago and that was with kobalt So i'm i'm dating myself. I know that but flow charts were a very integral part of uh programming back then and and now um I like the idea of of this flow chart but I think I and and we are in a little different position than most people who would look at it because we're familiar with the ordinance citations that these things refer to so To the extent that I think that this could be enhanced if each step had a specific Reference back to an ordinance provision or uh a um Revision in the the the the plan of the statement of work or the The the steps that we need to follow then I think that would make it easier for somebody who is not as familiar with us To look at one of the blocks and say well, what does that mean they can go immediately to that section of the ordinance or the the uh the rules and and and see it so That's Bob I don't know if i'm piggybacking on you if that was your uh, uh That was your suggestion or or not but Uh, i'm i'm referencing the actual citation in the ordinance or the or the rules Yeah, i'm not unfamiliar with the flow charts, uh, and sometimes they they they can get confusing but In terms of making it simple for the folks that don't Deal with this stuff on a routine basis. I think that's key to uh having this thing be effective Yeah, I think referring back to the ordinance would be would that would be pretty easy to add wouldn't it madison to go in and add that um, yes, would it Help or be more confusing when don was talking about, you know that other document. I know I I don't have it here with me I know what he's talking about um, would it be More confusing to add a reference to that or just keep it right straight to the ordinance like uh, ron was suggesting and and bob um I haven't uh, I i think i'm aware of the document that don is referencing Um, I haven't looked at it that it wasn't it didn't factor into creating this um So one thing we that I could do is take that and see if I how I could match it up to the flow charts um, or create create something like a a written narrative like that um document That would match up to like to the flow charts So basically, you know the the first step is that the complainant submits The complaint form the ethics complaint form, right? And so there would be a backup document that basically says number one This happens and it has detail like that. So, um I i'm not sure exactly how the processing ethics complaint 101 document looks but basically um We could take create, you know adjust that to uh And add it basically to these flow charts so that it was like one kind of process packet, uh with the visuals and the narrative Yeah, and what you have written, you know, it may be That it enhances some of the little descriptions or whatever so and yeah, and we could even we could include Um the references to the ordnance sections on the actual visual or we could include it in um, that kind of narrative and um In I don't want to get off posting because we've separated the two items But if we created a narrative document, we might not even need this other timeline document If those timelines were in the narrative So But now I think the timeline document to me makes makes more more sense than uh the flow chart both together and kind of Reading them and working them together. It makes sense, but I still think that the 101 ethics complaint 101 that we already have Is still simpler than than what we have here today Or at least that format Okay As the first, uh Document you're referring to solve the problem that we were trying to solve with this To me it it does it's 21 steps and it's uh Madison oh yeah, you didn't have that document. I was trying to think of Yeah, this is page one of it that covers the first three steps. I'll just kind of open it up. Okay I don't know how I can do it. Oh, that's good. We can see that. Thank you And it step one is the complaint must be submitted to the proper complaint form to the city auditor The complaint must be hand delivered via us mail That's one step one and the next it says the author has excuse me The auditor has five business days to determine if the complainant is administrative complete and timely And so it goes through each of those steps Being 21 steps through the entire process much like flow chart does but it I guess there's just more more information in each of the blocks than what the flow chart has It kind of oh well I don't know Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I feel like I first of all, I want to say I know madison has done a ton of work on this and she did a fabulous job But I think anything we can do to make it very simple and very clear Is great because it seems like we already put a lot of pressure on the complainant to not only be the complainant, but maybe even the prosecutor and I I don't know where that happens So I I think making it simple would be great um Um, well and i'll just add, you know, I think part of the reason Part of the reason I created the flow charts was um To have a visualization, right? So I think don I mean I I see what you're saying about the the 101 um document and I I I agree that having that available. I don't think it's available to the public right now um, so I I certainly think we can make that available to the public just make sure that it still lines up with um, The current ordinance because there have been revisions um, uh And then but I I guess I what i'd like from the board is One should we do that right go go through that revising maybe that process 101 just to make sure it still matches up And then publicize it um And then two does the board still believe that there should be some sort of visual like the flow chart? To help people who you know, perhaps are better at visuals or any or something like that um Should that still be there? And if if yes We could even package those together, right? So you have the document Processing a complaint 101. Um, but then we also have a visual Uh, so that you could look at both together That might be really good because like ron said if we have the flow chart that refers But I mean, I think that 101 that don has you know, it it does refer back and give you a good analysis And then if we do what ron said and add the here go to this ordinance um then that gives You know right brain left brain You know whichever direction that that where things sink in I mean i'm i'm a visual person but But some people aren't so I think it would be good for citizens for You know to make it easy i'm with aneta like make it as easy as possible and then they have two formats that they can use To figure out which one they're more comfortable with Because I feel like if somebody wants to file a complaint, they certainly want to understand What all this what goes on? so yeah brent I I agree. I think uh presenting Um the information in as many ways possible to make it accessible For me looking at the flow because I I worked with logic models for many years and so to see this I would Even reading it. I would start diagramming it myself just to figure out what the process was and so I I I like the idea of both I've got a question. Who is the primary audience for the different documents? Um We've had city council people we've had political consultants We've had political pundits We've had just people off the street have been the ones that have filed a complaint so far So it's it's almost as wide a variety as if you could possibly have Yeah, that's a good point Yeah, and I I think um originally when I presented this I think the intention was to Create some some document some documents that could be put on the board's web page city web page so that um The process could be made, you know easier to understand than trying to go through the ordinance to understand it Because they're on the web page. There was just the ethics complaint form at the time But you know, I also think the board could certainly use it right it's not You know not excluded from that um So that was kind of the intent the intention I have another I guess comment I was not able to attend the whole thing last time my my zoom crashed and I didn't have the uh The opportunity for the dialogue But looking at the timeline Uh, I find it a bit staggering that uh, it could take this process 196 days and in terms of Uh the concept of keeping things simple uh to me that That's going in the opposite direction I do think that that timeline would be important if someone files a complaint just before an election and maybe the purpose of the complaint is to Possibly throw an opponent off track in the middle of their election bid So I would I would think that there would be times when we would need to slow walk it a little bit and at least Wait for the election to be over So that the the election the ethics process isn't causing problems for the candidate Who at that point needs to focus on getting through their election? But yeah, I think in general I would hope it would go as fast as possible I would ask what if the complaint had the ability to sway the election one way or the other? Uh Like that would be a good thing I mean if if somebody was doing something Unethical in their campaign and then that came out That that might sway the election Well that that would Then slow walking in that particular case would not be a good thing would it No, and I don't think it would be good if the candidate wasn't doing anything wrong It would definitely be worse um You know because then we've distracted them and and made their election bid even more difficult while somebody just Filed a complaint that was just political. So that's my concern is that when it's near an election We need to be very very careful. Let the election take place and then once Once the election has you know filtered out then hear the complaint I think if It was filed and we felt that it had a potential impact on the outcome of the election if we Fast walked it and got to a conclusion quickly and the person was exonerated I think that they would be much happier than if we slow walked it and it Um impacted them. I I hate to interrupt this conversation. I think we we might be off posting we I think um if If we want to have a discussion about filing complaints We can certainly put that on an agenda I actually think that that's a good idea because I think My office is always going to try to process complaints as fast as possible because of the timelines and if we want to put some sort of um If we want to have a practice where we slow walk or some or or fast walk something during election season, I think that should be like a um, A a direction that directions that that is received from the whole board and potentially included in the um So may I request that we put that on the next agenda? We can certainly do that. Okay I had one more question. I couldn't find it. Um Did we have a resolution when we were talking about if the complainant doesn't show up to Kind of prosecute the hearing that the hearing goes away. I know that proposal was made. Did we make a decision on that? Because I don't recall a vote That's in the ordinance I believe the current ordinance that it's required for the complaint to appear. Um, wow That's not been made clear, yeah that needs to be in the Would there be any exceptions to that if a person were not able to be there My understanding is that um, per the rules of procedure the complainant can request a delay essentially And I believe we've had that occur in the past, um, because there there was a conflict or something um But I believe that can only have occur once i'm really just going off my memory here But there is a process to where the complainant or the respondent or either I think can um Request that the hearing be delayed for cause basically What part of that and not to put you on the spot madison and I know we're going to do timelines in the next um Item But where what you just said, where would that fall? on the flow chart Uh on the flow chart the request for delay Yeah, I would say um There's this the box at the top and then the second box under it That kind of all happens in in that kind of period in between the hearing being scheduled and um the hearing actually being conducted so I don't think The delay piece is included specifically, but we can add that Isn't it on there now where It says when the complainant Appears and presents the case But if he doesn't you know, if there's no appearance the case is dismissed and that's on the flow chart, right? I think we we have included the the That the complainant must appear uh and present their case. That's that was added after last time That was a great suggestion from from the board But the ability for somebody to delay to request a delay in the hearing Is not specifically on here, but I do think it would occur in that second Middle box from the top basically is in the process that starts with receive submitted Correct. So so we just added that after the last meeting It was already in the ordinance. We just added it to the flow chart To make that clear to I have I have a really big issue with that in our ordinance because I think it is asking a citizen to file a complaint and to act as a prosecutor and I know that I don't agree with it. But this board wants this to look as much like the role of law as possible But I don't think that's a good thing. I I think that there should be some separation and someone else should be Representing that case Um, i've said it so i'll leave it at that Would it be possible for the complainant to assign a surrogate if they didn't feel comfortable presenting the presenting the uh, their complaint Um, I don't I don't know that that's currently allowed under the ordinance. I i'd have to look trey. Do you have any idea? I I also think talking about specific Specifically about that piece of the ordinance is is again trying to kind of getting off posting We can put that on a on a future agenda as well You know under hearing four it actually states that uh, The complainant is required to testify at the hearing a complainant barrier to testify At a hearing shall be ground for dismissal of the complaint And that's that's the code Does that happen in a court of law? What if party doesn't show up yes, well if the complainant I mean if there's a crime um, there's somebody who files a complaint, but I I don't know that they always have they don't have to present the case. They might testify I'll just step in and say we're kind of we're we're getting off posting The postings to talk flowchart specific. Sorry, I I would like to go back at a future meeting, but Could I ask that we consider that at a future meeting? Is yes, or am I okay future agenda? As it relates to that item, I think a little clarification might be required in order to make it an agenda item Is one thing for the complainant to be required to testify is another thing for the complainant to have a representative that Helps them present the case So I think both can under the ordinance both can probably happen simultaneously And that's and that's correct and under the ordinance it says both the complainant and the and the Uh complaining has a right to be represented by council. So the respondent and the complaint May be represented by council in the ordinance And in a future meeting, uh, maybe discuss what if it's a whistleblower type complaint when they don't want to be revealed What do you do about that If you don't have anything I believe that there's a prohibition basically from keeping the complaint and its identity. Um a secret But maybe they wouldn't be present they didn't feel comfortable being present Have a surrogate I guess I would like to talk about that too like that's concerning Um, so I Appreciate the conversation we're having I I do want to just make sure that we don't go too far off posting um it I just i'll summarize kind of where I think we are on the flow charts um, it seems like we We want you're giving me direction to go back and take a look at the the processing ethics complaint uh 101 document to See how it compares to our current version of the ordinance and make any necessary changes um To see how that aligns with the flow charts that we have And then to bring that back kind of as a package That when it was approved could then be put um on the board's webpage to Help the public and and the board if when when needed, uh Uh know understand the ethics ordinance, uh better I really like that packet idea and I will say I came on the board later and I never saw that 101 document So maybe it was just an oversight, but i'm not seeing it. It sounds good Okay And i've got a request related to the packet Uh when you put that together if you will for those of us with no brain rather right or left Would you put a color? uh on the part that you're changing So that I can look at and say oh that's different. Yes, I for the the 101 process If there are changes that need to be made i'll i'll present a red line copy basically so that you can see what's what's been changed Due to the updated ordinance Then would it be appropriate to call the question because I definitely think that what we're talking about makes sense Does that sound? Good to everybody To add those things to the agenda you mean Well to to call the question and vote for the packet I don't know that we actually need to vote it. It's like there's direction to come back I don't agree with that. Um, unless trey you think differently No, no, there's not a Something to call. I think it's just this is more direction oriented than anything else. Okay Yeah, and that's what the um is to give the staff direction on the notice. So Anybody else have any more direction Or you know great suggestions, yeah, I want to thank don for bringing that up because I think that's a good a good thing to add All right And we uh, just as a point of order we didn't call technically call the two items together So do you want to still call the second item and if there's any? Um specific questions or thoughts about the the timeline document. Yes Discuss the second one already And as a person, I don't know if there's anything else that someone needs to add to it Yeah, i'll i'll just call it and then if anybody has something that we didn't just discuss As to this document we can give those suggestions. So Um board of ethics 21-009 on the agenda Receive a report hold a discussion and give staff direction regarding proposed ethics complaint process timelines And so we've got the timeline document And does anyone have anything? Uh to add or comments or direction or anything for them with regard to this document that we didn't discuss A moment ago in 21-008 I would request I think i'm still a little uh unclear about the direction on if This should continue being a document I work on or if this is being replaced basically by the processing 101 ethics, um document My feeling is it is a document that you can continue to work on or even blend into the 101 Because to me This document makes your blow chart work I mean it's me I agree I think being able to give a packet would be very helpful to people because then they can read it different ways and understand better how to Play by the rules basically I've got a comment based on our earlier discussion of this thing If we have the opportunity to slow walk or fast walk or whatever you want to call it That needs to be referenced in there I thought that was something we were maybe going to talk about at the next meeting maybe Yes What I heard? Yeah Yes, I think what my response is our office always processes the complaints as quickly as possible to meet the deadlines that are set out in the ordinance um, if there's a a will on the board to uh have that process be different during election season, um Then I would think that needs to be formally decided and Uh per annettas request, um, we're going to bring that back at a future meeting potentially the next meeting Okay, we're still kind of just to so y'all know we're still kind of waiting on appointments to be completed So that we have the the new board seated So All right, so I think that takes care of what's on the agenda, um tray is there anything else we need to do before I can ask for a motion to adjourn or You don't even need a motion to adjourn if everybody's I guess to the point of where the last agenda item is now over then you can Conclude the meeting as we have finished all the items Okay All right. So the wait, sorry Sorry, i'm looking away. I'm so sorry, uh, one more point of order just uh, for the good of the order. Um, the next meeting is is Regularly scheduled meeting to occur on the last thursday of march like our normal meetings except for it will be at 10 a.m instead of 3 p.m. We Didn't we we just had to switch the times around for that one meeting. Um so On the 25th I believe Yes, the 25th of march. So, um, oh it's it's laura. We were just uh closing laura But I was saying that the the next um board of ethic regularly scheduled board meeting Is march 25th at 10 a.m. Instead of 3 p.m Um, obviously we'll send out emails with the agenda and reminding everyone of that But just so you're aware Okay, sorry everyone, uh, I don't know if anybody's life has been up ended like mine has in the past week with All of my plumbing not working Uh, so I apologize for being late. Um, I guess whoever was Chair can adjourn or I can adjourn if this is the end Um, and hopefully next week next month we'll get back on track to like actually, uh talking about a little more substantive things So, um, I guess if madison hasn't already said it, um send her anything Um, you want to talk about before then we already have some ideas, but um, whatever else so I guess with that i'll adjourn After not being at the meeting I'm, sorry, your plumbing's not working. Oh, man Ours isn't either Yeah, well old houses. Yeah. Yeah Okay, um, all right, so I guess we adjourn now that i'm on - Yes, thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you.