1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,280 All right, I'd like to call the January 19th, 2021 meeting of the Civil Service Commission 2 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:20,520 to order at 3 31. 3 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:27,360 First order of business is the introduction of guests. 4 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:36,720 All of our folks, I think that I see here are not guests, but the star of the star performers 5 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:37,720 for the day. 6 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:38,720 You're the talent. 7 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,100 So we'll introduce you later. 8 00:00:42,100 --> 00:00:47,560 Is there anyone that I'm missing as far as guests? 9 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:48,560 Speak now. 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:54,840 Commissioner Ramsey, if I can just state one thing, one announcement for you. 11 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,080 Commissioner Lillian is unable to be with us at the last minute. 12 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,720 She had something that came up. 13 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:07,880 So basically we have Commissioner Ramsey as well as Commissioner Baines, who will be deciding 14 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:09,600 everything for today. 15 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,840 In regard to the appeals, we would need a unanimous vote between the both of them in 16 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,240 order for an appeal decision to be made. 17 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:26,020 And provided that they cannot agree unanimously, then we may have to adjourn that portion of 18 00:01:26,020 --> 00:01:30,320 the appeal, that specific appeal to the next scheduled meeting. 19 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:31,680 Thank you. 20 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:36,640 Sorry, you already told me that, so I forgot to announce it. 21 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:37,640 So thank you, Stephanie. 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:38,640 That's okay. 23 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:40,640 Daryl, I'm going to step away just a minute. 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,040 I need to get something from my assistant that I need from the meeting. 25 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:45,040 Okay. 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,080 Give me one second. 27 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,800 Anybody know any clean jokes that we can tell? 28 00:01:51,800 --> 00:02:00,080 And I'm trying to remember some that Sarah always share with us. 29 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,800 So the one that she told this morning, Stephanie? 30 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:05,800 Yes. 31 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,120 About the clam. 32 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,000 How did it go? 33 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,680 I don't remember. 34 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:13,680 Muscles. 35 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:19,160 What did, I'm going to go and mess it up. 36 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,680 I shouldn't have said anything. 37 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,600 Something about a clam with muscles. 38 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,480 Oh my goodness. 39 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:34,800 And it was one that she said about, something about peppermint. 40 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:35,800 I can't remember. 41 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,280 I'm a bad joke teller. 42 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:39,840 They're always good dad jokes. 43 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:45,800 All right, could you, could you back up and do a song and dance routine then? 44 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:47,200 I'll let Rachel handle that. 45 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,560 I'm going to say Chair, all I need is an audience. 46 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,560 That's all I need. 47 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,120 All right, here's John. 48 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:57,880 We're good. 49 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,000 John, we need to do one other thing. 50 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Public comments. 51 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,960 According to Crystal, we don't have any filed. 52 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,120 That's correct. 53 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:10,840 And no, no callers, sir. 54 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:11,840 No callers. 55 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:12,840 Okay. 56 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:13,840 Thank you. 57 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:21,280 Now, John, we need to just, let's go ahead and take care of this business right now upfront. 58 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:30,160 On the agenda, if you look at the order of the agenda, the appeals are plugged in right 59 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:35,840 in the middle under subtitle or subheading G. Right? 60 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,280 Okay. 61 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:50,640 What I would propose, I would like to make a motion that we move items H, I, and J, or 62 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:56,900 if your numbers seven, eight, and nine prior to the appeals. 63 00:03:56,900 --> 00:04:01,960 So we get the POAs out of the way, let the firemen off the hook in case they have to 64 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,340 go fix dinner or go on a call or something. 65 00:04:06,340 --> 00:04:07,800 And then we'll do the appeals last. 66 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,360 I'd like to make that as a motion. 67 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:12,360 Okay. 68 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:13,360 I'll second. 69 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:14,360 Okay. 70 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:22,800 I guess we kind of know how it's going to vote, but let's say all in favor say aye. 71 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:23,800 Aye. 72 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:24,800 Opposed? 73 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:25,800 So that carries. 74 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:26,800 Good. 75 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:27,800 Thank you. 76 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:35,880 Next order of business is to approve the minutes from the November 16th meeting that were distributed 77 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,760 to us in our packet. 78 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:45,760 I would entertain a motion that we accept those minutes. 79 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,600 I move that we accept the minutes as presented. 80 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:49,600 Okay. 81 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,800 Did you see any corrections, additions? 82 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:52,800 I did not. 83 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,800 I did not see it. 84 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:56,800 Nor did I. 85 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:57,800 Okay. 86 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,680 I would entertain a motion, then we have a motion on the floor. 87 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,440 Let's all in favor say aye. 88 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:05,440 Aye. 89 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:06,440 Opposed? 90 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:11,980 Minutes are approved. 91 00:05:11,980 --> 00:05:17,200 Election to chair and vice chair. 92 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:31,840 Well you know what the obvious one would be is to make a Lillian, but she's not here. 93 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:36,760 Well I was going to check your temperature, Darrell, and see how you were doing, you know, 94 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:43,520 if you were interested in continuing or if you were wanting to transition. 95 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:51,040 I am perfectly fine continuing with this arduous task, although I don't want to feel like I'm 96 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:58,040 dominating it, so if any of the others, if the other two of you want to jump in, you 97 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,760 know, that's fine too, but I don't mind doing it, so. 98 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:08,920 Well, Darrell, if you don't mind, that way I'll, as my other, the other parts of my life 99 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,360 are kind of falling into place, I would like to leave it as is if you're okay. 100 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:14,640 I'm fine with that. 101 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:23,800 Okay, so I'll move that we have Darrell Ramsey as the chair and John Baines as vice chair, 102 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,760 is Lillian vice chair? 103 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,000 No, you're, I think you're vice chair. 104 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,000 That's correct. 105 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,000 That's correct. 106 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,000 Mr. Baines is vice chair. 107 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:37,080 Okay, well I'm going to, I'm going to recommend that Lillian be vice chair, how about that? 108 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:38,080 Okay. 109 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:39,080 Okay. 110 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,600 I'll second that emotion, emotion. 111 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,440 Okay. 112 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:47,440 Any other discussion? 113 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:48,440 No. 114 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,280 All right, all in favor say aye. 115 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:53,280 Aye. 116 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:54,280 Aye. 117 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:58,000 All right, motion carries. 118 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,880 Next item is the fire recruit eligibility list. 119 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,680 You have that in a packet. 120 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,960 I'll defer to fire, who's here for fire? 121 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:10,960 Okay. 122 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,520 I think this is working, can y'all hear me okay? 123 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,000 I can hear you fine. 124 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,720 Okay, good, because I finally got this video camera to work. 125 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:20,720 Okay. 126 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:30,320 Yes, we gave the test on Saturday, the ninth, and we had 288 people show up, 279 passed, 127 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,920 and we gave out 109 background packets to the people who scored 85 or above. 128 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:41,000 And the list that you see before you to be approved is how they finished. 129 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,480 There's a, if you look between 109 and 110, there's a bold line. 130 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,960 And that just denotes people above the line, we gave packets to people below the line have 131 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,560 not been given a packet as of yet. 132 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:54,560 Okay. 133 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,520 What was the reason for that captain? 134 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,840 Where we decided not to give everybody one? 135 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:01,840 Yes, sir. 136 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:09,320 That's a good question, in the past two years, we've only had about 35, 37 people show up. 137 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,840 And this year with so many, we're looking to hire in three spots. 138 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:19,960 And so per con for our main conferred contract, we have to take 15 to the physical agility. 139 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:26,340 So I just did kind of rough math, you know, from what I understand, this is my first rodeo 140 00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:32,160 as a recruiter, but from what I understand, it takes about two for every one background 141 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,920 packet that you process, like say it takes 30 people to get 15, for example. 142 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:41,880 So we just figured that, you know, a good number would be 60 to 100 somewhere in that 143 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:47,920 ballpark and just chose 85 had it been, you know, had we only gotten 50 people, we would 144 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,040 have given out, you know, lower the number down to 80 or something like that. 145 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:56,720 We just without any quantifiable data to use prior to this, I just guessed that 85 to try 146 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,240 to get 100 people. 147 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,840 If we had to, the test is good for a year. 148 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:06,840 Yes, sir. 149 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:14,160 If we had to, you could go further down that list beyond below 85 at some other point, 150 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:15,160 correct? 151 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:16,160 For sure. 152 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:17,160 Yes, sir. 153 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:18,160 And it's quite possible we could go below that anyway. 154 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:23,640 You know, we've been, I gave them two weeks, which is pretty standard to turn in their 155 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:24,640 background packet. 156 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,880 So they have till 5pm on Friday. 157 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:32,440 And you know, we're trying to process the first, we've broken the background packet 158 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:37,200 process into group A and group B. 1 through 30 would be group A and then, you know, 31 159 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:42,000 through 60 would be group B. Just to process them faster, we're trying to speed up processing 160 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,120 time for, you know, a safer grant that we have. 161 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,060 So speed is a little bit of the essence. 162 00:09:47,060 --> 00:09:52,480 So but if we only get, you know, as of right now, I've only gotten 15 of those 109 packets 163 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:53,480 back. 164 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:58,240 So it's quite possible by the end of the week, if we only get 10 more, I may, you know, I'm 165 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,480 probably sending an email out to everybody who made 84, then 83, then 82 and shoot those 166 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:07,080 out and say, you know, turn a packet in, it doesn't hurt to turn one in, it's just, you 167 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,560 know, with me and then having two other background guys, it's hard to, you know, process the 168 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:17,420 sheer volume with a high rate, you know, the high turnaround. 169 00:10:17,420 --> 00:10:19,440 Okay. 170 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:20,920 Any other questions, John? 171 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:26,360 No, no, I was just curious as to the line of demarcation. 172 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:32,120 Okay, I would entertain a motion that we accept the fire recruit eligibility list. 173 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:33,120 So moved. 174 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:34,120 I'll second. 175 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,680 All in favor say aye. 176 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:38,360 Aye. 177 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,720 Motion carries. 178 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:45,640 Next is the police recruit certification list. 179 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,320 Who's taking that one? 180 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:48,320 That's me. 181 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:49,320 Hello, Jason Colba. 182 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:56,400 I apologize for the wacky video, my laptop wouldn't play any sound for some reason. 183 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,640 So I'm having to do this on my phone. 184 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:05,200 We held our first civil service exam of the year also on January 9th. 185 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:12,640 We had 68 showed a test out of I think 223 registrations, 39 passed the exam. 186 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:19,160 And we're aware we still have seven names to process from our September list and that 187 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,200 list we have to work until March 6th. 188 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,240 So we're going to finish off our old list before we start on the new list and try and 189 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:31,680 do a hiring round for our July Academy. 190 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:36,160 This test wasn't as strong as our September test for some reason, it may be in the time 191 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:43,320 of the year because January's test last year was very similar to this one. 192 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,520 Okay. 193 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,760 Any questions? 194 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:55,560 You know what, Darrell, you know, I was looking at the demographics on the police test. 195 00:11:55,560 --> 00:12:02,880 So Jason, can we go through those a little bit or was that another agenda item? 196 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:03,880 Sure. 197 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:04,880 Okay. 198 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,920 Let me see here. 199 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,040 Yeah, we also we also did the same. 200 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:27,360 Okay. 201 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,440 Okay. 202 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:36,040 So we had a total of 68 to take the test. 203 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:37,400 Yes, sir. 204 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:49,040 And then we had four black males and three of the black males failed. 205 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,400 All of the black females failed. 206 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,160 Yes. 207 00:12:53,160 --> 00:13:00,240 And three of the five Hispanic females failed. 208 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,920 So in reading the tea leaves, what did that what did that have to say? 209 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:11,640 Well, we don't know, you know, our September test, we administer the exact same test in 210 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,080 September. 211 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:18,680 And we had a much stronger candidate pool, I would say, I mean, we hired 11 off of that 212 00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:29,000 September list, six of those being female, two black females, the rest white females, 213 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,080 and then we hired, you know, Hispanic male, we had a pretty good diverse mix on our new 214 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:34,080 Academy list. 215 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:40,840 Now, having said that, this is something that we've already discussed with Crystal Babcock. 216 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,840 And we're going to have another meeting with her and look at the testing company we use 217 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,680 because we're certainly open to trying a different exam. 218 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:58,320 So comparing comparing this January exam to the September, give me give me the give me 219 00:13:58,320 --> 00:13:59,320 the feedback. 220 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:07,080 Let me pull up the demographics from September. 221 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:18,080 So September's we had 83 testers out of 177 registrations, okay, 58 passed. 222 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:23,960 I'll go over that the total but the testers that took the tests. 223 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:32,680 Well, there's 36 white males, three black males, zero Asian males and 18 Hispanic males 224 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:33,680 in September. 225 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:34,680 Okay. 226 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:41,220 On our female testers, we had 12 white females, seven black females, one Asian female and 227 00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:43,480 six Hispanic females. 228 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:53,120 So the failures were 11 out of 36 white males, two of the three black males, six of the 18 229 00:14:53,120 --> 00:15:01,680 Hispanic males failed, zero white females failed, two of the seven black females failed 230 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,560 and four of the six Hispanic females failed. 231 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,320 So the demographics look better in September. 232 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:15,340 Still maybe not great, but you know, like I said, it's one of those things that when 233 00:15:15,340 --> 00:15:21,600 we discuss this with Crystal, you know, we can go back to the history a little bit of 234 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,640 the test we switched to, but there are other testing companies. 235 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,320 And so we were going to meet with her and look at some of the other testing companies 236 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:31,760 and see what their data is. 237 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,880 This testing company has a ton of data that shows that it's a non-discriminatory test. 238 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:41,920 And that's one of the reasons that we had to switch from our old exam is because that 239 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,880 company went out of business and we can't validate that exam. 240 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:51,800 So we switched to a company that's in use around DFW by other agencies. 241 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,620 Originally I used a different version of this company's test and the failure rate seemed 242 00:15:56,620 --> 00:15:58,420 a little higher. 243 00:15:58,420 --> 00:16:06,800 And so I asked around to other agencies again and the 201 version that we currently use, 244 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,440 you know, just from getting feedback from other agencies, the 201 was supposed to have 245 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,580 a little better rate on it. 246 00:16:13,580 --> 00:16:16,860 So we switched to the 201 to give that a shot. 247 00:16:16,860 --> 00:16:21,200 But having said that, I'm not joined at the hip by any of these tests and if we can find 248 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,920 one we think is better, I'm certainly open to using a different company. 249 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,520 Well, Jason, my knee jerk is this. 250 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:34,440 I don't want to hold up the proceedings for today, but it does seem to me that we need 251 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:40,520 to do a little deeper dive on the reason why we're not having higher test rates. 252 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:46,360 I'd be interested in seeing a little more information on the candidates themselves just 253 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:58,240 to see if the pool from which we've drawn kind of predetermined this result or if there 254 00:16:58,240 --> 00:16:59,240 was something different. 255 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:07,940 So Chairman Ramsey, I don't know how to get out of this loop right now, but anyway, I 256 00:17:07,940 --> 00:17:12,140 would like to kind of get a deeper dive on some of those demographics and have another 257 00:17:12,140 --> 00:17:13,140 conversation. 258 00:17:13,140 --> 00:17:18,200 So I don't know how that's possible, especially with, you know, if we're having to call a 259 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,640 meeting and you have to have two people there and that type of thing, or you can't have 260 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,780 two people, you know. 261 00:17:26,780 --> 00:17:35,760 My thought would be to put that as an agenda item on a future meeting, perhaps one where 262 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:45,000 it's a relatively short meeting where we approve eligibility lists and nothing else, but then 263 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:53,140 I would hope that we could go ahead and fill and pass this today and approve it as we look 264 00:17:53,140 --> 00:18:00,680 into the test, which I assume will be next September-ish. 265 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:07,040 Probably late June, either June 26th or July 10th. 266 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,320 The idea is to have the test right around the start of our academy so we can get it 267 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:16,400 put together, certified, and then work that list for the next academy for that six months. 268 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:22,580 COVID really threw everything off in 2020 quite a bit, and I suspect that that has something 269 00:18:22,580 --> 00:18:27,360 to do with our applicant pool, too, because, you know, where we would normally do in the 270 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:34,800 area of 20 to 25 recruiting events in a year, we essentially couldn't do anything in 2020. 271 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,680 A big draw for us is the mega career fair at Fort Hood that we would do twice a year 272 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,800 where 4,000 or 5,000 soldiers would come through, and there's a huge diversity of soldiers that 273 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,720 would come through getting ready to transition out. 274 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:53,840 I signed up for their virtual event a few months ago, and I spent three hours standing 275 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,560 at a laptop and I had three people pop into my booth, so it's not the same as being there 276 00:18:58,560 --> 00:18:59,920 in person. 277 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:03,160 So that definitely, you know, hurt us. 278 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,800 We're not able to get to the college campuses and all of that stuff, and these virtual events 279 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:13,000 haven't been very good, honestly, so, you know, hopefully we can kind of get through 280 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:20,560 this COVID stuff and get back to our better, you know, recruiting events, so time will 281 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:21,560 tell, I guess. 282 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:27,200 Jason, I got one more question, and then I'm going to get off the horse. 283 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:35,240 Last year was a pretty tough year for police relations in the community, and at least from 284 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,920 my perspective, there was just a lot of stuff going on. 285 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,680 Do you think that may have affected the recruiting? 286 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,600 Oh, absolutely, without a doubt. 287 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:53,240 Where we're seeing now, kind of the result of that is our lateral applications are really 288 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,580 starting to take off from the states where they're, you know, as a result of those things 289 00:19:58,580 --> 00:20:02,480 that were happening, they're passing some really restrictive things where they're talking 290 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,660 about qualified immunity and all that stuff. 291 00:20:05,660 --> 00:20:12,200 So we're getting quite a few calls from, you know, Illinois, California, Colorado. 292 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,520 Their cops are starting to bail out of those states, honestly, and they're looking to come 293 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,240 somewhere where they can work in a better environment. 294 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:27,400 So I think there's some of that, you know, in September, one of the females we hired 295 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:34,360 was a dispatcher for Cook County for Chicago, and that was a, she comes from a police family 296 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:40,120 and didn't want to, she wanted to get her daughter into a better living environment 297 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:42,120 and didn't want a police in that environment. 298 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:46,440 So she somehow came down to North Texas and tested with us, and she's in our academy now 299 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:47,440 now. 300 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,600 So it's definitely interesting. 301 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,680 But I think, I think people that want to be involved in public service are going to find 302 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,400 a way to do it. 303 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:01,640 And honestly, I think more Texas is probably the one of the very best areas in the country 304 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:02,640 for policing. 305 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:08,240 And so, you know, as time goes on, we'll see more of those candidates here rather than 306 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,240 other states. 307 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,240 Thank you, Jason, and Chairman Ramsey. 308 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:21,600 So if we can maybe make a motion to put that on a, on a subsequent agenda item, where we 309 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:26,400 can do a deeper dive on the demographics, because they seem to be a little, little less 310 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,200 desirable than I would like to see. 311 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:29,200 Sure. 312 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,200 Sure. 313 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:31,200 I don't know that we need a motion. 314 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,400 I think we can just put it on as a note if, is that right, Stephanie? 315 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:36,400 Yes. 316 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,240 And we have a section at the end of the agenda where we discuss future meetings. 317 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,840 So that may be an opportunity to discuss it further. 318 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:44,840 Thank you for your indulgence. 319 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:51,600 I would entertain a motion that we accept the, what are we doing, the police recruit 320 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,280 list certification list. 321 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,240 John? 322 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,920 Yes, yes. 323 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,240 Your, is that a motion? 324 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,280 I'm still in the fall, please forgive me. 325 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,940 I move that we accept the police recruitment list as presented. 326 00:22:12,940 --> 00:22:15,840 No laughing, Stephanie. 327 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:16,840 Okay. 328 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,760 All in favor say aye. 329 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:21,760 Aye. 330 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:29,440 This is a, this is a Stephanie and Michael question. 331 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:36,800 We have a five recruit eligibility list and a police recruit certification list. 332 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:45,040 Somewhere in our recent past we had a discussion about eligibility versus certification. 333 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:54,160 Do we need to make any alteration in either of those titles? 334 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,840 I'm wondering if there's maybe some language in the different contracts that calls it something 335 00:22:58,840 --> 00:22:59,840 different maybe? 336 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:00,840 That's correct. 337 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:01,840 Yes. 338 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:02,840 Yeah. 339 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:03,840 Okay. 340 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:04,840 All right. 341 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:10,080 Okay, at one point, so I just, I saw that and I thought maybe we need to ask the question 342 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,080 anyway. 343 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:12,080 Okay. 344 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:21,160 That being done, next is the POA position opportunity announcement for the fire driver 345 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,240 promotional exam. 346 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,400 Who's doing that one? 347 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:29,400 That's me. 348 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:30,400 Okay. 349 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:37,480 So we have the, you're going to see the POAs for fire driver, fire captain and fire battalion 350 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,360 chief and other separate agenda items. 351 00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:41,360 Right. 352 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:49,600 They are, so the dates for our promotional exams are written in our meet and confer contract. 353 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:56,960 So that's where the, which are the first Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of March every year. 354 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:06,280 So that's where March 4th for fire driver, March 3rd for fire captain and March 2nd for 355 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,920 fire battalion chief come from. 356 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:14,880 They'll be on those respective dates at two o'clock, central fire station as we do every 357 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:15,880 year. 358 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,160 Then the promotional exam source material, the commission's already approved. 359 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:28,440 You did that, I believe in November. 360 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:34,880 So there they are, our registration deadlines, one week prior to the exams, that gives us 361 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:41,440 an opportunity to ensure we have the proper amount of tests and verify that any prerequisites 362 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,440 that are required for any of those positions are met prior to the testing date. 363 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:47,440 Okay. 364 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,000 Any questions? 365 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,720 John, do you have any? 366 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:56,960 No, I have no questions. 367 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:57,960 Okay. 368 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:03,080 I would entertain a motion that we approve the fire driver POA. 369 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,280 I make the motion that we approve the POAs presented. 370 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:07,720 All right. 371 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:08,720 Second? 372 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,760 So all in favor say aye. 373 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:11,760 Aye. 374 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:17,920 Okay, next is the fire captain. 375 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:24,240 I think probably anything, anything new to add? 376 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,040 No, sir. 377 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,040 Okay. 378 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,120 You kind of get them all together. 379 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:33,320 The dates and the source material are really the only things that are different on them. 380 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:38,780 You've already seen the source material and like I said, the dates are written into our 381 00:25:38,780 --> 00:25:42,400 mean defer contract. 382 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,400 Okay. 383 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:44,400 Questions? 384 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:53,920 I move that we accept the POA for the fire captain promotional exam. 385 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:54,920 Second. 386 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:55,920 As presented. 387 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:56,920 Second. 388 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,520 All in favor say aye. 389 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:00,520 Aye. 390 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,080 And so that motion passes. 391 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,120 Next is the POA for the fire battalion chief. 392 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:15,280 I have nothing further to add, Dr. Andrew. 393 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,400 Is that the same day or the day before? 394 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:19,400 It's the day before. 395 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,920 The day for battalion chief is March 2nd. 396 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,080 Fire captain is March 3rd and fire driver is March 4th. 397 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,080 Okay. 398 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,720 I kept looking to make sure I was getting the right dates. 399 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:33,720 Okay. 400 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:42,160 I move that we accept the POA announcement for fire battalion chief promotional exam 401 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,160 as presented. 402 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:44,160 Second. 403 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,160 Any discussion? 404 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:46,160 No discussion. 405 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:47,160 All in favor say aye. 406 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,160 Aye. 407 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,160 Opposed? 408 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:50,160 No one. 409 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:51,160 So we're all set. 410 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,160 Yeah. 411 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,160 John? 412 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:54,160 I'm on the meeting right now. 413 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:55,160 Thank you. 414 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:56,160 Sorry about that. 415 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:07,040 Let me disconnect the phone. 416 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,760 I did that before you came on. 417 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:09,760 So. 418 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:10,760 Okay. 419 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:24,800 Next item of business, going back on the agenda to item CSC 21011, are the appealed questions 420 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:30,100 from the police sergeant promotional exam. 421 00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:39,640 So let me just a second to get my, change gears here. 422 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:56,520 Just a reminder, when we do the appeals, the person who is making the appeal will get a 423 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:05,040 chance to speak their, speak their, their argument, make their argument. 424 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:11,660 And there'll be a chance for questions from the commissioners. 425 00:28:11,660 --> 00:28:18,960 There will be, ask for a police response. 426 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,840 Who's going to do the police responses? 427 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,360 That would be me, Michael Barron. 428 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:26,120 Okay. 429 00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:33,840 And then questions there, then we'll, if I can remember, we will have a time where we 430 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:42,400 would ask for anyone to speak in opposition to the, to the appeal. 431 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:48,920 There are a couple of items that are, that have two appellants. 432 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:59,840 I would simply ask the appellants, if they're here with us, to present any new information 433 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:00,840 that hasn't been presented. 434 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:06,480 In other words, if you're the second presenter, you don't need to rehash everything that we've 435 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,600 already done. 436 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:14,440 But if you have new information that you'd like to add to that, we certainly want you 437 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:15,440 to do that. 438 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:20,560 That's, that's, that's your, your chance. 439 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:27,760 My philosophy on this has always been that you get a chance to air your concerns and 440 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:34,560 then we can take everything under consideration and then ultimately make a decision. 441 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:42,600 So first, I'll say this now, I'll probably say it again at the end, to all of the appellants, 442 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:50,160 thank you very, very much for taking the time out of your busy lives, lives to even study 443 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:55,240 for this exam, take the exam and do the appeals. 444 00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:00,360 You may not like us when we get done because your appeal didn't get approved, but please 445 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:11,520 understand that we do truly appreciate the work that you have put into this and we'll 446 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,560 do our best to be fair to everyone concerned. 447 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:25,800 So that being said, is there anything else that we need to say, Stephanie or Crystal? 448 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:35,320 All right, now, first appeal is question number eight, and again, we have, electronically 449 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,120 we have all of the supporting materials. 450 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:54,760 So first appeal is by Sarah Keith, so Sarah, be sure to unmute yourself and you're on. 451 00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:02,280 The appeal for question eight is based mainly in the fact that the grammatical structure 452 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:12,640 of the question does not allow the first options to be correct, and therefore the last answer 453 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:20,600 D cannot be all of the above because it's missing the word and, and that's the basis 454 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,720 of my argument, which is on my written appeal. 455 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:33,160 Questions for Officer Keith? 456 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:41,600 John, do you have any questions? 457 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:54,360 Well I'm looking at the, at the appeal here, and I have printed out all the appeals, but 458 00:31:54,360 --> 00:32:02,280 as far as the source material, I do, I don't have that with me. 459 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,840 It's in a, it's in a Dropbox file. 460 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:10,160 Did you not get the Dropbox file? 461 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:20,360 I'll refer the email to you, Mr. Ramsey or Baines. 462 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:39,000 What I would, I agree that there's a grammatical issue, but in looking at the, in looking at 463 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:47,880 the source material, all three of those are listed, and I don't see, while giving, giving 464 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:56,080 a test sometimes does kind of fracture the grammatic, the grammar of an issue with all 465 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:01,640 three of those issues there, I don't, I don't see where that we could, that we need to make 466 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:08,080 a change, but police response? 467 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:15,160 Yes sir, what you just said is the, a summary of the police response, all three of those 468 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:22,680 are listed in the source material, none of them individually would be a correct answer. 469 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:37,040 Okay, John, that, that is found on the task force on page three. 470 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,800 Okay, I see it here. 471 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:41,800 Okay. 472 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,920 All right, okay. 473 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:54,080 Please forgive me everyone, I'm, I'm without my regular email system, I'm, we're having 474 00:33:54,080 --> 00:34:04,160 a fight with Microsoft 365, and so I'm having to kind of go backwards into my emails, and 475 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,520 I miss this, so I apologize for that. 476 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:31,320 Okay, let's see if I can get there, sorry Sarah, okay, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, 477 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:42,920 sorry. 478 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:52,960 So Darryl, help me out here, which particular, which of the particular source materials are 479 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,280 we looking at here? 480 00:34:54,280 --> 00:35:04,320 We're looking at the president's task force on 21st century policing, page three, pillar 481 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:05,320 four. 482 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,320 Page what now? 483 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:07,320 Three. 484 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:08,320 Okay. 485 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:25,200 Color four, and let's see. 486 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:32,200 Found it yesterday. 487 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:40,480 Okay, pillar four. 488 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,720 Yes, sir. 489 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:43,720 Okay. 490 00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:50,680 To look at that short hash paragraph on the, on the right column. 491 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:51,680 Yes. 492 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,680 Page 17, pillar four. 493 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:57,680 Last sentence. 494 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:05,800 Law enforcement agencies. 495 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:12,960 Yes. 496 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:28,400 Okay. 497 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:57,920 So, Sarah, please forgive me for the, excuse me, Officer Key. 498 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:07,480 Please forgive me for asking the question again here, but your contention was that it 499 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,840 should be C rather than D? 500 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:16,520 Correct, because if you place any of those answers alone into the fill in the blank and 501 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,520 the nature of a fill in the blank is that it has to make sense when you insert it into 502 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,280 this sentence. 503 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:27,600 So if you insert any of those answers, A, B, or C into the, into the sentence, the only 504 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:33,300 one that grammatically makes sense is answer C. And if you were to choose answer D, you 505 00:37:33,300 --> 00:37:38,520 would need to add the word and in order for it to grammatically make sense. 506 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:48,120 Each of those answers, A on its own, B on its own, would not make sense because it says 507 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:55,000 approaches for planning to crisis situations does not make sense. 508 00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:00,700 Approaches for implementing to crisis situations does not make sense. 509 00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:05,320 Approaches for responding to crisis situations does make sense. 510 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:11,280 And again, like I said, if you do all of the above, you need the word and inserted between 511 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:16,560 implementing and responding. 512 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,840 And the police response was what again, please? 513 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,920 That all three of those are listed in the source material and none of them individually 514 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:26,920 would be correct. 515 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:34,240 The way the question is written, if you, if C said and responding as it's quoted in the 516 00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:37,000 text, that wouldn't make sense grammatically either. 517 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,600 But the option is only responding. 518 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:47,760 So inserted by itself C into that question, into that sentence would make sense and would 519 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:52,800 be correct. 520 00:38:52,800 --> 00:39:08,840 >> Thank you for catching me up, I apologize. 521 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,200 So Daryl, are you waiting on me or are you going to make a recommendation? 522 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:21,680 >> I was kind of waiting on you on the questions for either police or officer Keith. 523 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:39,800 If you have other questions, let me, let me go ahead and do the other thing, which is 524 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:57,600 to ask if there's anyone that would like to speak in opposition to the appeal? 525 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,440 Not seeing anyone raising their hand. 526 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,880 Hi, John, it's back to you. 527 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:10,320 >> Okay, Chairman Ramsey, I think in comparing the question to the response, I think I'm 528 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:15,400 going to have to, to stay with the guide here and go with the answer as D. 529 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:21,960 >> So motion is to sustain the key. 530 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:22,960 >> Sustain the key. 531 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:23,960 >> All right. 532 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:24,960 I'll second that. 533 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,960 On favor, say aye. 534 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,960 >> Aye. 535 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:44,760 >> And the next one is 18, but I understand if I got the message correctly, Sara, I mean, 536 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,440 Officer Keith, that you're going to book for that one? 537 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:48,440 >> Yes, please. 538 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:49,440 >> Okay. 539 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:50,440 All right. 540 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,320 Sara and I talked a lot over the phone this summer. 541 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,520 You may not remember, but we spent a lot of time together. 542 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:11,040 All right, next is item 39, Travis, your opportunity to make your case. 543 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,280 >> Good afternoon. 544 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,400 >> How are you? 545 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:18,400 >> I'm well. 546 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:26,000 So at this time, I am going to remove my appeal on number 39. 547 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:33,640 >> All righty. 548 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:39,240 Next is item 53 and this is yours. 549 00:41:39,240 --> 00:41:40,240 >> Yes. 550 00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:44,720 Hi, this is Officer Jared Ray. 551 00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:45,720 How are you guys? 552 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:46,720 >> Good. 553 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:47,720 >> Good. 554 00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:48,720 Thank you. 555 00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:54,880 >> All right, so on number 53, the reason why I was appealing it is I understand that 556 00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:05,240 it says what always merits the designation, what got me whenever I was reading the test 557 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:15,840 question on the day of the test was all three of them listed as far as ABCD, out of zone 558 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:21,440 of safety for the chronological agent development stage, mentally or physically disabled, and 559 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,080 the company of others who could jeopardize your safety, all three of those were listed 560 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:32,280 out of the eight topics in the general order. 561 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:42,080 So with all of those listed, if we went to a call and we had someone that was, like it 562 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,720 says, out of the zone of safety for their age, they were mentally disabled, and the 563 00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:52,360 company of others, we had someone that met all three of those criteria. 564 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,240 I believe that that person could be listed as a high-risk missing person and probably 565 00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:00,120 should be, or else it's going to go back on the police officer, it's going to go on the 566 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,800 sergeant, it's going to go on the city, and it's just going to be a big deal. 567 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,360 So I believe that it could have been not none of the above, but it could have been all. 568 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:17,480 So had it been all of the above, I think it would have been a more fitting answer. 569 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:23,120 Okay. 570 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,120 Thank you, sir. 571 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,120 Questions? 572 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:28,120 John? 573 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,760 I need just a second, please. 574 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:31,760 Thank you. 575 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:32,760 Okay. 576 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,760 Have you found the source? 577 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,640 Yes, I did. 578 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,880 We're also working to get to where I can share my screen and pull up the source material 579 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,400 when we're referencing it, so it'll be just one second. 580 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:46,400 Okay. 581 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:57,560 So, Officer Ray, for the sake of those of us who might be chronologically challenged, 582 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:08,000 I'm going to ask you to repeat for me your understanding as to why D is incorrect. 583 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,000 Right. 584 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:16,480 So on General Order 315 for missing persons, it says in there that these examples alone, 585 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,400 and it gives a list of A through H, if you would like, I could read them to you. 586 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,880 These examples alone might not merit designation as a high-risk missing person. 587 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:26,880 I understand that. 588 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:27,880 I agree with that. 589 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:28,880 No. 590 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,720 And so whenever I read, "Out of zone of safety for their chronological age and development 591 00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:38,160 stage," that's someone that may be intellectual disability. 592 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:43,400 They may be 15, but they're intellectually a two-year-old. 593 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:48,960 And then you have someone that's in the same person that's mentally or behavioral disabled, 594 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,080 and then that same person is in the company of others that could jeopardize the welfare. 595 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,640 They're with a bad group of people. 596 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:01,000 That's why I believe that it could be all of the above versus none of the above because, 597 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,800 again, it says these examples alone might not merit. 598 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:10,240 But I have all three of them listed on the test, and that's where, to me, it's confusing 599 00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:13,480 as a question. 600 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,720 And the police response, again, was what, please? 601 00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:18,240 Well, we haven't gotten there yet, so. 602 00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:19,240 Okay. 603 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:20,240 Okay. 604 00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:24,080 But you have other questions for Jared? 605 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,960 Not really a question, but I was just going to emphasize a point once I heard the police 606 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:28,960 response. 607 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,080 Let's go and get the police response. 608 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,160 Yes, sir. 609 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,520 The question is, "What always merits?" 610 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:44,120 And there are two categories in the list that always merit, and it's A and B. And then all 611 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:59,680 the subsections, A through H, might merit. 612 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:00,680 Officer Behrends? 613 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,920 Yes, sir. 614 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,400 So here's what I'm looking at. 615 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:13,440 I see a question that says, "Which always merits designation as a high risk?" 616 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:19,120 And so the operative for me is the word "always." 617 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:28,920 And then you say A and B are both on the list for always? 618 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:37,160 If you look under the bold font, "high risk missing," A, missing as a result of abduction 619 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:43,600 by a stranger, B, missing under suspicious or unknown circumstances, such as when the 620 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,600 person is 13 years of age or younger. 621 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:46,600 Yes. 622 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:52,560 And everything below that might not merit designation. 623 00:46:52,560 --> 00:47:07,680 In other words, same to me, as I ran through this, that if you're going to use as the stem 624 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,040 of the question, "which always merits designation as a high risk missing person," you should 625 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:21,200 list A, as a result of abduction by a stranger, B, missing under suspicious or unknown circumstances, 626 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:28,560 C, missing more than 30 days or less than 30 days at the discussion, D, reported missing 627 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:36,840 on four or more occasions, five, and on with good, those are the always's. 628 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:37,840 Your question says "always." 629 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:43,720 You don't have any of those on there. 630 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:48,560 And that's why none of the above is the correct answer. 631 00:47:48,560 --> 00:48:08,800 I'm struggling with the transition and the use of the word "always." 632 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:17,520 And then it says, "high risk missing includes persons who are missing as a result of an 633 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:26,480 abduction by a stranger, missing under suspicious or unknown circumstances." 634 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:41,160 And then the unknown circumstances then enumerates A and B, and it goes through a listing there. 635 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:48,200 And then those other items would be the always. 636 00:48:48,200 --> 00:49:05,320 So you got A, B, C, D, E, and M are all high risk missing persons. 637 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:11,960 And so then we come back to the question, which says, "which always merits designation 638 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:27,080 as a high risk missing person," that A and that B would warrant, and always, that's how 639 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:35,120 I'm reading it, "out of the zone of safety for their chronological age or mentally or 640 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:36,800 behaviorally disabled." 641 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:42,480 And also F. And also F, John. 642 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:43,480 Yes. 643 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:52,240 F is also verbatim, or answer C, which is F in the definitions. 644 00:49:52,240 --> 00:50:02,040 Well, I don't know, am I allowed to speak again? 645 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:08,920 The way I read the question is, if they're missing as a result of an abduction, or if 646 00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:14,160 they're under suspicious or unknown circumstances when they're 13 years of age or younger, those 647 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:19,240 are the two that always merits. 648 00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:26,840 And then everything else is might merit, and it says these examples alone might not merit 649 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:32,640 designation. 650 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:40,200 Other questions, John? 651 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:45,520 I'm struggling. 652 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:50,600 I deal with the difficult language every day, and this one's a little challenging for me. 653 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:51,600 I agree with you. 654 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:56,680 Let me go ahead and finish, and then we'll get to discussion, unless you have other questions. 655 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:57,680 I do not. 656 00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:58,680 It's just a statement. 657 00:50:58,680 --> 00:50:59,680 All right. 658 00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:04,440 Well, let's discuss, and then we can bring in the interested parties as we need to. 659 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:15,640 Is there anyone who would like to speak in opposition to the appeal? 660 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:23,320 Seeing none, discussion, John, you and I? 661 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:27,120 I hate the question. 662 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,640 It's a very difficult question. 663 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:35,360 I don't personally like it. 664 00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:41,880 The always versus might is kind of tacky, personally. 665 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:51,280 I would like to see us accept all through A, B, and C. I think there's simply explanations 666 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:57,040 of an all of an always, is my personal feeling. 667 00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,240 Well, yeah, those three are always. 668 00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:03,240 That's what I'm saying. 669 00:52:03,240 --> 00:52:04,240 Those three are always. 670 00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:12,120 I mean, according to the definition, but I think those three that are listed as answers 671 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:24,800 are simply explanations of the B portion of what is considered to be always. 672 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:35,480 I'm having a hard time distinguishing between the might and always, and I'm sure that probably 673 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:40,640 others have that same distinction issue. 674 00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,720 So what is your suggestion, Mr. Chair? 675 00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:51,760 I will move that we accept A, B, and C. 676 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:52,760 I'll second that motion. 677 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:53,760 Okay. 678 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:54,760 Now we can discuss it. 679 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:55,760 Okay. 680 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:56,760 All right. 681 00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:57,760 Okay. 682 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:02,240 Is there anything else that needs to be discussed about it? 683 00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:03,240 Not for me. 684 00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:06,840 I just found it a very challenging question. 685 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,760 We have very challenging options there. 686 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:11,760 Okay. 687 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:21,920 So the motion on the floor is to accept A, B, and C. All in favor, say aye. 688 00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:22,920 Aye. 689 00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:23,920 Aye. 690 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:24,920 Opposed? 691 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:31,360 With a wink, wink, nod, nod, Michael, one more look at that question. 692 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:32,360 Yes, sir. 693 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:40,960 And so I guess just to be clear, Mr. Ramsey, so I guess you're granting that appeal, correct 694 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:41,960 on that one? 695 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:42,960 That's correct. 696 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:50,280 In a manner of speaking, yes. 697 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:51,280 Okay. 698 00:53:51,280 --> 00:54:02,760 Next is Item 57, Travis. 699 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:30,360 Okay, so just a second, I'm trying to get to the, okay, so on Number 57, it had to do 700 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:38,940 with who's responsible for pursuits, who has responsibility during vehicle pursuits according 701 00:54:38,940 --> 00:54:49,880 to the men's police department policies. 702 00:54:49,880 --> 00:55:01,000 The 307.3.2 vehicle pursuits, which is on page 3, states that if any officer other than 703 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:07,560 a supervisor determines the risk of the pursuit outweigh the safety of the involved officers 704 00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:14,280 and those in the community, the officer may direct the pursuit to be terminated. 705 00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:24,480 So I felt that the answer should have been all of the above, if my memory serves me correctly. 706 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,920 Answer A was the primary officer. 707 00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:31,520 Answer B was the secondary officer. 708 00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:39,520 Answer C was the sergeant, or answer D was all of the above. 709 00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:46,000 Question, field supervisor, officer initiating, secondary officer, all of the above. 710 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:55,320 And I felt that answer D was correct, all of the above, have responsibility in vehicle 711 00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,320 pursuits. 712 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:25,160 Look, if you look at 307.3.2, well, the secondary pursuit vehicle is not mentioned in your argument, 713 00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:32,440 so how do you justify that as being a correct answer? 714 00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:33,440 Okay. 715 00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:45,320 Well, because, like I said, in the first part of 307.3.2, it says if any officer other than 716 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:51,000 a supervisor, so that would be your primary officer and your secondary officer, and even 717 00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:57,320 the third officer, they were available if it says any officer. 718 00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:04,480 That's not exclusive to a sergeant or a supervisor. 719 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:22,040 All right, point me again to the sentence that you just quoted. 720 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,480 I'm sorry, what was your question? 721 00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:32,000 Where is the point you just quoted about any officer, where do you see that? 722 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:48,240 Mr. Ramsey, I pulled it up on the screen, sir. 723 00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:58,880 Under 307.3.2, in the second paragraph, when a supervisor directs a pursuit to be terminated, 724 00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,320 the officer will immediately terminate the pursuit. 725 00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:09,280 Second sentence, if any officer other than a supervisor determines the risk of the pursuit, 726 00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:14,040 outweigh the safety of the involved officers and those in the community, the officer may 727 00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,720 direct the pursuit to be terminated. 728 00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:24,640 So any other officer would be the primary officer, secondary officer, and so on, whomever 729 00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:35,400 was involved, other than just a supervisor or a sergeant. 730 00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:52,000 Okay, now there's a separate section 307.6, which specifically speaks about supervisory 731 00:58:52,000 --> 00:59:05,400 control and responsibilities, okay? 732 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:19,840 So we had that 307.2, but this is 307.6, so. 733 00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:26,600 And their responsibility, that would be in D, subsection D. 734 00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:35,560 Okay, I see that. 735 00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:40,720 Any response to that, Mr. Nicholas, officer Nicholas? 736 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:42,320 Yes, sir. 737 00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:49,480 Do you have any response to Mr. Baines' comment, question? 738 00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:59,000 It looks like the question is really addressing the supervisory control and not just control 739 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:13,400 of a termination in general, is that, does that strike a chord, Mr. Nicholas, officer 740 01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:22,320 Nicholas? 741 01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:23,320 Right, yes, sir. 742 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:24,320 Yeah, I see that. 743 01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:25,320 But again. 744 01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:26,320 Go ahead. 745 01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:27,320 I'm waiting. 746 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:39,480 So again, as it reads in 307.32, prior to that, though, it says any officer. 747 01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:46,000 So again, it's not just, I understand that is a supervisor's role or responsibility, 748 01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:52,920 but 307.3.2 says any officer's responsibility. 749 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,840 Now, let's go back to the question. 750 01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,800 Do you have a copy of the question there? 751 01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:03,840 I was looking for it, but I do not have the actual test question in front of me. 752 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:08,080 So I'm looking at something here that says question 57. 753 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,200 Yeah, I have. 754 01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:19,440 And then down at the bottom, underneath A, B, C, and D, it says 307.6, supervisory control. 755 01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,000 Were you aware of this reference? 756 01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,560 Yes, sir. 757 01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:25,800 Okay. 758 01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:35,120 So it looks like they're wanting you to base your answer on 307.6 rather than 307.2, which 759 01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:41,340 is my head is off to you for being able to quote that, but it looks like they're mainly 760 01:01:41,340 --> 01:01:43,840 focusing on the supervisory responsibility. 761 01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:54,840 John, I'm going to jump in there and go to Michael, because I'm not sure that that question 762 01:01:54,840 --> 01:02:00,960 has 307.6 listed on the test. 763 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:08,480 307.6 is for our benefit to know where the question actually came from. 764 01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:09,480 Is that correct? 765 01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:10,480 Yes, sir. 766 01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:11,480 Yes, sir. 767 01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:12,480 That is correct. 768 01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,680 So he wouldn't have known the difference between 307.6 and 307.2. 769 01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:17,680 Yes. 770 01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:22,200 He would have just known chapter three. 771 01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:27,000 That would have been his only cue was chapter three. 772 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:31,200 Is that correct? 773 01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:32,200 Yes, sir. 774 01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:33,200 You're absolutely correct. 775 01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:37,200 The question ends after D, all of the above. 776 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:42,160 That's all that anything that they would have access to on the test would have been above 777 01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:43,160 D, all of the above. 778 01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:44,160 Yeah. 779 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:50,300 That doesn't necessarily change the nature of your question, John, but what it does, 780 01:02:50,300 --> 01:02:55,480 it's not something that would have been that specific that Travis would have seen. 781 01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:57,760 Well, and that was what I was trying to get at. 782 01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:05,920 See, I'm looking at this recapitulation of question 57, but everything that I see here 783 01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:09,280 was not available to the test takers. 784 01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:16,800 Yes, officer Nicholas, you had a question or a comment? 785 01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:18,000 Yes, sir. 786 01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:26,800 The last sentence of question 57 also states these are some of the responsibilities of whom. 787 01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:33,640 So these are some responsibilities of all the officers. 788 01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:43,880 It doesn't say specifically to whom, it just says some of the responsibilities of whom. 789 01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:47,520 So let's go back to these four bullet points, okay? 790 01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:56,400 So directing the pursuit be terminated if in their judgment it is not justified to continue. 791 01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:00,560 Bullet two, ensuring the proper radio channel is being used. 792 01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:08,160 Bullet three, exercising management and control of the pursuit, even if not engaged in it. 793 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:13,960 And the last bullet, ensuring that no more than the required law enforcement vehicles 794 01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:19,400 are involved in the pursuit, all of that is found in which subset? 795 01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:24,200 Is it point two or point six? 796 01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:32,200 All of those in totality are under 307.6. 797 01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:38,480 But if you take out the first one, directing the pursuit be terminated if in their judgment 798 01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:44,240 it is not justified to continue is also listed under 307.3.2. 799 01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:45,240 Okay. 800 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:56,320 And then in the conclusion, after those responsibilities are listed, the direction it asks or the statement 801 01:04:56,320 --> 01:05:02,040 is these are some of the responsibilities of blank. 802 01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:09,760 So these are some of the responsibilities of 307.32 as well as 307.6. 803 01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:16,800 So let's go now back to the source material and see if we could find these four bullet 804 01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:17,800 points. 805 01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:43,000 If our technical person can get us to that screen, please. 806 01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:48,320 Okay so I see point D is the first bullet. 807 01:05:48,320 --> 01:06:01,440 Point E, excuse me, the radio contact is F, exercising management, that's point B. And 808 01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:18,400 then the last bullet point, going back, there we go, there we are. 809 01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:25,440 That's point C. So all four of those are found under 307.6. 810 01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:36,620 So let's go back to 307.2 and let's see how many of those are there, please. 811 01:06:36,620 --> 01:06:42,640 And Mr. Baines, if I may, please, please, for the sake of time, there's only one that's 812 01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:51,560 listed on 307.3.2 and that's the first directing the pursuit be terminated if in their judgment 813 01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:53,940 it is not justified to continue. 814 01:06:53,940 --> 01:06:58,920 That is the only one that will be found there, the other three are not. 815 01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:05,040 But it's not listed as a bullet point though, is it? 816 01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:06,240 I think it's in the body. 817 01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:10,840 No sir, no, it's not listed as a bullet point, you're correct. 818 01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:25,040 Okay, so now we've had this discussion before about if you're gonna go to a source material, 819 01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:32,060 it looks like the bulk of those bullet points are gonna be under point six rather than under 820 01:07:32,060 --> 01:07:33,060 point two. 821 01:07:33,060 --> 01:07:34,060 Yes. 822 01:07:34,060 --> 01:07:35,280 Would you agree? 823 01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:36,280 Yes. 824 01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:49,880 Okay, okay, okay, so there are, it looks like to me, we're gonna have to stay with the key. 825 01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:55,120 All right, well, hang on, we gotta get the, we got a couple of things to do and then we 826 01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:56,120 can discuss it. 827 01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:57,120 Okay. 828 01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:58,120 That's fine. 829 01:07:58,120 --> 01:07:59,120 First response. 830 01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:00,120 Michael? 831 01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:01,120 Yes, sir. 832 01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:08,640 If we can scroll, throw 307.4.3 up. 833 01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:23,640 307.4.3, primary is in pursuit, okay. 834 01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:29,880 It lists all the responsibilities of the primary unit. 835 01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:34,280 And none of those bullet points in this question appear in that list. 836 01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:35,280 Okay. 837 01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:45,880 Okay, and if we can go down just a little bit more to 307.4.4, and there's the secondary 838 01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:52,880 pursuit vehicle responsibilities, and none of the answer or none of the information in 839 01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:56,360 the question are in those bullet points either. 840 01:08:56,360 --> 01:09:00,080 So the responsibilities are spelled out, the supervisor responsibilities are spelled out, 841 01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,360 they have all of those bullet points in them. 842 01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:07,000 The secondary and primary units have none of those items. 843 01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:08,960 Right. 844 01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:17,600 There's nothing in 307.4.4 that says that they would do any of those things, right? 845 01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:18,600 Right. 846 01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:19,600 Is that what you're saying? 847 01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:20,600 Okay. 848 01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:21,600 Yes, sir. 849 01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,480 So, that makes A, the preferred answer? 850 01:09:24,480 --> 01:09:28,200 Yes, sir. 851 01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:31,800 Okay. 852 01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:36,080 Any other questions for police? 853 01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:44,080 Just to comment, Mr. Nicholas, thank you for your scholarship and your hard work. 854 01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:51,240 I think I'm going to have to defer, though, to the bulk of those points, which are directly 855 01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:58,000 related to the supervisor, rather than to the other individuals that are involved in 856 01:09:58,000 --> 01:09:59,000 the decision-making. 857 01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:00,000 Okay. 858 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,880 Hang on one more second there, John. 859 01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:03,880 Yes, sir. 860 01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:13,400 Is there anyone who would like to speak in opposition to the appeal? 861 01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:16,400 Seeing none, hearing none, now. 862 01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:17,400 John? 863 01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:18,400 Yes. 864 01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:24,120 I think we're on the same page, so why don't you just make a motion? 865 01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:28,520 I make the motion that we sustain the key. 866 01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:31,960 I'll second that. 867 01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:41,680 I agree with your comments to Officer Nicholas, and if all the source material, everything 868 01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:46,440 that was brought in is the source material, there was no outside source material involved 869 01:10:46,440 --> 01:10:48,920 in this question. 870 01:10:48,920 --> 01:11:01,560 All right, next is item 58, Officer Weatherford, there he is. 871 01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:02,560 Hello. 872 01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:03,560 Magically appears. 873 01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:04,560 Only when I'm needed. 874 01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:16,760 All right, I am appealing number 8, I'm sorry, 58. 875 01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:25,880 The material on that is general order 401, specifically 401.1. 876 01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:30,840 My appeal on that is that the reasoning is that there is no correct answer, and I'll 877 01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:38,400 read to you the question and the answers, the question is what is bias-based policing? 878 01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:46,500 The answers are A, a reliance on actual or perceived characteristics as the basis for 879 01:11:46,500 --> 01:11:52,240 providing law enforcement service or enforcement, B, using protected characteristics with credible 880 01:11:52,240 --> 01:12:00,200 information to connect a person to a specific unlawful incident, C is neither A nor B, and 881 01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:07,320 D is both A and B. The correct answer according to the key was A, a reliance on actual or 882 01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:13,880 perceived characters as the basis for providing law enforcement service or enforcement. 883 01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:20,320 My reason for the appeal is that the full definition is actually lacking several important 884 01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:22,320 words. 885 01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:29,160 The full definition says an inappropriate reliance on an actual or perceived characteristic 886 01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:36,080 such as race, ethnicity, protected, you know, all the protected characteristics, and then 887 01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:41,720 the last part says as the basis for providing differing law enforcement service or enforcement. 888 01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:48,520 Both the words inappropriate and differing are missing from the answer A. 889 01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:52,520 Differing is in there, isn't it? 890 01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:54,760 No, it's not. 891 01:12:54,760 --> 01:13:00,760 Differing, differing, well answer A says differing law enforcement. 892 01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:09,000 Oh, I guess it is. 893 01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:10,000 That must be in there. 894 01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:11,000 I'm sorry. 895 01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:12,000 I probably wrote that down wrong. 896 01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:13,960 But I know inappropriate is not in there. 897 01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:18,000 Inappropriate is not in there, yes. 898 01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:23,480 Any questions for the appellant? 899 01:13:23,480 --> 01:13:27,640 I need just a second, Daryl, thank you. 900 01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:28,640 Okay. 901 01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:32,080 Can you listen to the police response while you're doing that? 902 01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:34,080 Please, I would love to. 903 01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,520 Michael, you're on. 904 01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:38,240 Yes, sir. 905 01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:42,840 Providing differing police service or enforcement based on real or perceived characteristics 906 01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:50,440 is the driving focus of what the answer says in A. Just because the word inappropriate 907 01:13:50,440 --> 01:13:55,760 is omitted in that sentence doesn't change the meaning of the sentence. 908 01:13:55,760 --> 01:14:01,260 It cannot be B. B is speaking to connecting a person to a crime, and that doesn't appear 909 01:14:01,260 --> 01:14:05,240 in the definition anywhere. 910 01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:12,960 I feel like A is the best answer without question. 911 01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:22,360 So a reliance versus an inappropriate reliance are the same thing? 912 01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:29,160 I mean, I can read the whole sentence if you'd like, but... 913 01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:36,240 No, I hear what you're saying, but what they're getting at is anything for providing differing 914 01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:41,280 law enforcement service, whether it's appropriate or inappropriate. 915 01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:47,000 I don't think omitting the word inappropriate changes the meaning of the sentence. 916 01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,040 In this context. 917 01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:55,320 Thank you so much. 918 01:14:55,320 --> 01:15:04,320 So I can go out and do something, and if it's appropriate, I'm fine. 919 01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:10,800 But if it's inappropriate, I'm arrested and put in jail. 920 01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:17,400 So that's a pretty big difference in my mind. 921 01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:25,320 That's a really big word, unless you can explain to me how it is the same without the word 922 01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:31,680 inappropriate in there, which would then make C the correct answer, because it's neither 923 01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:39,440 A or B. 924 01:15:39,440 --> 01:15:49,840 The way I read it is if you rely on any characteristic to provide differing law enforcement service, 925 01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:50,840 that is inappropriate. 926 01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,840 That's wrong. 927 01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:56,320 And that's what the question is going at. 928 01:15:56,320 --> 01:16:00,840 That's what the definition is going after, is providing different law enforcement service 929 01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:08,200 based on a characteristic. 930 01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:13,720 Chairman Ramsey, I could go either way on that one. 931 01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:22,360 That one is I could go with a reliance or an inappropriate reliance. 932 01:16:22,360 --> 01:16:24,960 To me, you could get away with either one. 933 01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:34,240 I don't know, get away is not the right word to talk about police questions, but I could 934 01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:35,440 select either one. 935 01:16:35,440 --> 01:16:38,840 You are absolutely right. 936 01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:44,240 I think I have in here that it's another one of those questions that I think you need to 937 01:16:44,240 --> 01:16:48,920 look at real carefully, but what is bias-based policing? 938 01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:55,880 It's a reliance on actual or perceived characteristics, but if it's bias-based, it's also based on 939 01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:56,880 inappropriate. 940 01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:08,480 I mean, the bias-based is sort of a generic description, and I see where John is coming 941 01:17:08,480 --> 01:17:09,480 from. 942 01:17:09,480 --> 01:17:10,480 It could be both. 943 01:17:10,480 --> 01:17:13,120 It could be either way. 944 01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:23,280 But I think inappropriate is the one that's going to get someone in bigger trouble than 945 01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:32,960 appropriate as far as accusations of bias, so I think that's a pretty significant word 946 01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:36,120 myself that's left out of the question. 947 01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:48,520 I do, too, but as a reader of the question, I could go with an answer that says an inappropriate 948 01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:52,000 reliance or a reliance. 949 01:17:52,000 --> 01:18:02,160 To me, I could go with either one, so that makes it fair game for something different 950 01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:06,360 than the key. 951 01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:26,880 I did answer C, and the reason, of course, was because it didn't read to me that it was 952 01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:28,160 inappropriate. 953 01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:34,680 It wasn't, you know, it didn't seem like, obviously, basing things on people's characteristics. 954 01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:38,600 I mean, we literally have to do that all the time because of descriptions of people, things 955 01:18:38,600 --> 01:19:01,440 like that, but that's kind of how I read it more, without the inappropriate word in there. 956 01:19:01,440 --> 01:19:07,360 And I would argue that we do different kinds of policing for different kinds of communities, 957 01:19:07,360 --> 01:19:15,760 you know, for certain types of genders and things like that, you know, we do treat people 958 01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:20,360 differently, have different rules for different things. 959 01:19:20,360 --> 01:19:25,340 You know, we get a female to search a female, I mean, just based on different characteristics, 960 01:19:25,340 --> 01:19:31,920 we do do that, so I think the word inappropriate is very important. 961 01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:38,000 John, what do you make a motion? 962 01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:43,000 Do you want me to make a motion? 963 01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:46,600 I think we're going to make different motions. 964 01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:53,080 Okay, well, my motion would be to... 965 01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:59,680 I don't know, I don't think the question is faulty, but I think it's complex. 966 01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:06,320 The answer is complex, and, you know, there's a lot of subjectivity that you have to deal 967 01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:14,560 with here, but if you're talking about going to the material, and they had the source material 968 01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:21,000 which said an inappropriate reliance was there. 969 01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:30,160 However, if you rely on actual or perceived characteristics, that can also be bias-based 970 01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:34,560 policing, because you're relying on it. 971 01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:40,120 So I'm struggling there with... 972 01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:55,280 Well, I think they chose the wrong word to leave out to make that an answer. 973 01:20:55,280 --> 01:21:00,680 The test takers do that from time to time, you know, they're going to try to give you 974 01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:04,600 the answer and leave out a word or two. 975 01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:16,580 Except this is the right answer, but the source material does say an inappropriate definitions 976 01:21:16,580 --> 01:21:25,800 of bias-based policing is, one of them is, an inappropriate reliance, which would make 977 01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:32,760 C the correct answer for the question. 978 01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:35,840 That would be my motion. 979 01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:50,720 Okay, are you going to make that motion? 980 01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:56,480 If I can, I guess, can I step away from the chair and make a motion? 981 01:21:56,480 --> 01:21:57,480 Sure. 982 01:21:57,480 --> 01:21:58,480 Okay. 983 01:21:58,480 --> 01:21:59,480 Okay. 984 01:21:59,480 --> 01:22:02,480 I'll second that motion. 985 01:22:02,480 --> 01:22:06,400 And then we'll discuss it a little bit more. 986 01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:07,400 Okay. 987 01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:21,560 Motion made, seconded to accept answer C rather than A. Now we can discuss it. 988 01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:35,840 Sherman Ramsey, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to go with A and with, if you're going 989 01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:43,120 to do that, you couldn't use B. 990 01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:59,000 Right? 991 01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:02,520 So I guess I'll have to second your motion to make it neither A nor B. 992 01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:03,520 Okay. 993 01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:04,520 Okay. 994 01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:13,280 I'd like to confirm one thing, if it's okay. 995 01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:14,280 Sure. 996 01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:18,120 Let me take a look here. 997 01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:19,120 Your echo's on, Stephanie. 998 01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:22,320 And I'm sorry, I don't know how I can speak. 999 01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:28,800 Jared accidentally hit his microphone button. 1000 01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:32,120 So the decision is that you're only going to accept C. 1001 01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:41,520 So for those test takers who chose D, that would no longer be the correct answer. 1002 01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:43,480 Is that what I'm hearing based on the motion? 1003 01:23:43,480 --> 01:23:46,480 A is the key answer. 1004 01:23:46,480 --> 01:23:47,480 Okay. 1005 01:23:47,480 --> 01:23:49,120 A is the key. 1006 01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:50,120 A is the key. 1007 01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:54,760 So you're going to accept A and C as an answer, right? 1008 01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:58,280 But C is really the correct answer. 1009 01:23:58,280 --> 01:23:59,280 Okay. 1010 01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:05,800 So as it's listed with the word "inappropriate" left out, at least that's the motion on the 1011 01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:06,800 floor. 1012 01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:10,460 It hasn't actually been passed officially. 1013 01:24:10,460 --> 01:24:15,480 So that makes C the right answer. 1014 01:24:15,480 --> 01:24:16,480 So what about A? 1015 01:24:16,480 --> 01:24:19,200 Is C the right answer or the best answer? 1016 01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:26,680 Well, C would be the right answer. 1017 01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:43,840 Or the best answer because of the omission of the word "inappropriate." 1018 01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:52,720 Well, as I poorly stated earlier, I could accept A. 1019 01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:58,320 But I can also accept C. 1020 01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:25,240 Well, let me ask you a question. 1021 01:25:25,240 --> 01:25:30,440 I don't have the question right in front of me, but you're saying you could accept A or 1022 01:25:30,440 --> 01:25:36,280 C. I mean, is the question worded that you have, it has to be only one right answer, 1023 01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:37,280 right? 1024 01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:42,600 I mean, you can't have two unless it says, like, all the above or something, either one 1025 01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:43,600 is the right answer. 1026 01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:45,600 It can't be this or that, right? 1027 01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:46,600 Yes. 1028 01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:54,040 It's either A, which is the key answer, with the word "inappropriate" left out, then B, 1029 01:25:54,040 --> 01:26:02,020 which is not an issue, it is definitely not an answer, then the other two are neither 1030 01:26:02,020 --> 01:26:08,840 A and B, or the other answer is both A and B. 1031 01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:19,240 So if A is an incorrect statement, then C, which is neither A or B, would be the correct 1032 01:26:19,240 --> 01:26:20,240 response. 1033 01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:29,280 If A is the correct answer, even without appropriate, then that is the correct answer. 1034 01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:34,960 Here's the way I take that. 1035 01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:44,640 If I'm going to police with bias, then I'm relying on something I actually see or something 1036 01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:53,800 that I perceive, if I'm going to be biased. 1037 01:26:53,800 --> 01:27:04,160 And then, if you want to go and say, well, it doesn't include that word "inappropriate," 1038 01:27:04,160 --> 01:27:14,800 then that would make it the wrong answer. 1039 01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:28,680 And so you would go to neither A nor B. So that's why I say I'm still stuck, Darrell, 1040 01:27:28,680 --> 01:27:34,960 with A and C, for me personally, but I realize we have more business to proceed with, and 1041 01:27:34,960 --> 01:27:41,120 so I don't want to stay here longer than we should. 1042 01:27:41,120 --> 01:27:44,840 Let me ask you this, Mr. Ramsey. 1043 01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:53,320 If you think the answer is as written, left out something significant, then in a sense 1044 01:27:53,320 --> 01:27:58,840 is the question itself just a bad question all around, and therefore I think under your 1045 01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:01,760 rules, everybody gets credit for it? 1046 01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:11,400 Or I'm just trying to make it easy for you and trying to come to a decision on whether 1047 01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:13,960 to grant the appeal or deny it. 1048 01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:19,600 Is it so bad that the question itself is deficient, and therefore I think under the rules, everyone 1049 01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:26,200 should get credit and deficient because it left out an important word? 1050 01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:29,200 Would you be willing to go that way, Darrell? 1051 01:28:29,200 --> 01:28:33,720 Could we amend that and say, "Accept A and C"? 1052 01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:37,000 Well, you can't change the answer. 1053 01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:40,000 You can't change the answer. 1054 01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:41,000 No, no, no. 1055 01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:48,040 But what I'm saying is that on our amendment, I mean, on our decision, my motion was to 1056 01:28:48,040 --> 01:28:54,000 accept C as the correct answer. 1057 01:28:54,000 --> 01:29:01,600 Could we amend that amendment and say, "Accept A and C"? 1058 01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:02,600 That's what I was thinking. 1059 01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:06,800 It doesn't taste very good, but I'll live with it. 1060 01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:12,120 Your options under the rules are to either sustain the answer key, disqualify the answer 1061 01:29:12,120 --> 01:29:18,080 key, or disqualify the test question. 1062 01:29:18,080 --> 01:29:24,640 May I have a question from the floor? 1063 01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:26,240 Yes, sir. 1064 01:29:26,240 --> 01:29:32,720 If the question can be such that there could be two correct answers, then I think it would 1065 01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:38,920 be best to just omit the question itself altogether. 1066 01:29:38,920 --> 01:29:48,280 Well, hang on, I'm going to get back to your comment. 1067 01:29:48,280 --> 01:29:55,680 Stephanie, we're changing the answer key, and we can do that. 1068 01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:59,960 We've done that numerous times by accepting A and C. 1069 01:29:59,960 --> 01:30:03,200 Yes, you have done it. 1070 01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:09,400 Which that way, we don't have to eliminate the question, because eliminating the question 1071 01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:17,440 penalizes everyone who took the test, and we don't want to do that. 1072 01:30:17,440 --> 01:30:23,760 Is that a question, or is that a holding your pen in an odd way? 1073 01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:24,960 That was a question. 1074 01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:25,960 Okay. 1075 01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:34,920 That's what you just said was what I was going to ask, because if you're saying the question 1076 01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:40,760 just goes away, then that negatively affects the people who- 1077 01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:41,760 Everybody. 1078 01:30:41,760 --> 01:30:42,760 Yeah. 1079 01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:43,760 Everybody. 1080 01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:44,760 Right. 1081 01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:53,400 Yeah, we don't want to eliminate the question, but we're not for this particular test. 1082 01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:56,680 We're not going to take it away from this particular test. 1083 01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:11,160 I could live with accepting A and C. That would be amending my motion to include A and 1084 01:31:11,160 --> 01:31:19,040 C. John, will you second that amended motion to accept A and C? 1085 01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:21,520 John will second that amended motion. 1086 01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:22,520 Okay. 1087 01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:31,440 I don't think that's needed, right, Michael, Stephanie, because we can change the key to 1088 01:31:31,440 --> 01:31:33,320 accept more answers. 1089 01:31:33,320 --> 01:31:34,320 So all right. 1090 01:31:34,320 --> 01:31:35,320 Yes. 1091 01:31:35,320 --> 01:31:39,480 Now, that being said, John, is there any other discussion that we need to do on this one? 1092 01:31:39,480 --> 01:31:40,480 No. 1093 01:31:40,480 --> 01:31:43,280 I'm all in favor of that amended motion. 1094 01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:49,640 So all in favor of accepting A and C, say aye. 1095 01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:50,640 Aye. 1096 01:31:50,640 --> 01:31:52,640 Opposed? 1097 01:31:52,640 --> 01:31:54,640 None. 1098 01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:57,640 All right. 1099 01:31:57,640 --> 01:31:58,640 Michael? 1100 01:31:58,640 --> 01:31:59,640 Yes, sir. 1101 01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:01,640 I don't want to see that question again. 1102 01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:02,640 No, no, no. 1103 01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:03,640 Yeah. 1104 01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:04,640 I'm clear on that question. 1105 01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:10,000 But I need to go back because some of the discussion on 58 caused me to have a question 1106 01:32:10,000 --> 01:32:12,000 on 53. 1107 01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:19,040 The vote was to accept A, B, and C. The key to answer was B. So how do we proceed with 1108 01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:20,040 that? 1109 01:32:20,040 --> 01:32:24,720 Anybody that put A or C in there gets a correct answer. 1110 01:32:24,720 --> 01:32:31,760 So it's A, B, or C. Any of those answers are correct. 1111 01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:33,160 So the people that answered in D. 1112 01:32:33,160 --> 01:32:34,160 They're out. 1113 01:32:34,160 --> 01:32:35,160 Okay. 1114 01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:36,160 Thank you. 1115 01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:37,160 Claire? 1116 01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:49,480 Good. Now, you're muted, there you go. 1117 01:32:49,480 --> 01:32:54,200 Can you clarify what Lieutenant Barron's just asked for 53? 1118 01:32:54,200 --> 01:33:03,200 What was -- The motion was to accept A, B, and C. 1119 01:33:03,200 --> 01:33:10,560 So if you're accepting A, B, and C, why would all of the above not be accepted if you're 1120 01:33:10,560 --> 01:33:18,880 -- if A, B, and C are correct and then all of the above is an option? 1121 01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:21,760 Question 53 is none of the above. 1122 01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:22,760 Oh, okay. 1123 01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:23,760 Never mind. 1124 01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:24,760 Then I was confused. 1125 01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:25,760 Sorry. 1126 01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:28,760 It's A, B, and C. Okay. 1127 01:33:28,760 --> 01:33:41,160 Now, next question 59, Mr. Weatherford again. 1128 01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:42,160 You're back. 1129 01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:43,160 I am back. 1130 01:33:43,160 --> 01:33:51,040 Hopefully I can make this one smoother for you guys. 1131 01:33:51,040 --> 01:34:00,160 59 is general order again, it's 401, specifically 401.5 bias-based policing. 1132 01:34:00,160 --> 01:34:03,520 I believe the answers are misrepresented in the material. 1133 01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:09,800 I believe answers B and C are inclusive to A and they should not be listed as separate 1134 01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:12,800 options and I'll read the questions. 1135 01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:19,400 The question is what are the supervisory responsibilities pertaining to bias-based policing? 1136 01:34:19,400 --> 01:34:25,960 The correct answer is keyed as D, all of the above, A says supervisors shall monitor those 1137 01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:31,320 individuals under their command for compliance with this order and shall handle any alleged 1138 01:34:31,320 --> 01:34:39,000 or observed violations, B is supervisors shall discuss and document the discussions, C is 1139 01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:44,480 supervisors shall initiate investigations of any actual or alleged violation, and of 1140 01:34:44,480 --> 01:34:47,120 course C is all of the above. 1141 01:34:47,120 --> 01:34:55,560 My argument here is that A is actually the header and B and C are bullet points listed 1142 01:34:55,560 --> 01:34:57,280 under that header. 1143 01:34:57,280 --> 01:35:03,240 A says that they should handle any alleged or observed violation and I would argue that 1144 01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:10,740 B and C is to discuss and document discussions and then investigate any violations should 1145 01:35:10,740 --> 01:35:13,560 be included in handling the investigations listed in A. 1146 01:35:13,560 --> 01:35:22,840 Okay, John do you have questions? 1147 01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:41,480 Can we go to the source material in 401.5 please? 1148 01:35:41,480 --> 01:35:49,800 The number A is the header there right under the bolder things and super responsibilities. 1149 01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:59,000 So small a is the same as b and the test questions? 1150 01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:16,520 And C are included as bullets under the header? 1151 01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:26,600 Let me ask the question Paul and I have the response so I know what it is, but B and C 1152 01:36:26,600 --> 01:36:33,640 are also correct answers, then the obvious correct answer is D. You can't separate any 1153 01:36:33,640 --> 01:36:36,880 of the three, right? 1154 01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:43,040 I see what you're saying but I think A should also either be an answer or it's a bad question 1155 01:36:43,040 --> 01:36:46,440 because there's all of the bullet points in there that aren't included also, but we're 1156 01:36:46,440 --> 01:36:49,960 going to include two bullet points under the header, it doesn't make sense to me. 1157 01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:55,500 But they are, the ones that are included are all correct. 1158 01:36:55,500 --> 01:36:59,360 So all the above would be the appropriate answer. 1159 01:36:59,360 --> 01:37:04,880 Think about that one for a second while I ask Barron's to address. 1160 01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:14,360 Yes sir, all three of those are included in the source material as the responsibilities 1161 01:37:14,360 --> 01:37:19,320 of a supervisor regardless of how they're broken up or bulleted, they're all in that 1162 01:37:19,320 --> 01:37:25,960 section as responsibilities. 1163 01:37:25,960 --> 01:37:31,600 John, questions? 1164 01:37:31,600 --> 01:37:34,600 No questions. 1165 01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:41,260 Anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal? 1166 01:37:41,260 --> 01:37:44,200 Seeing none, John, motion? 1167 01:37:44,200 --> 01:37:48,360 I have a motion that we maintain the key. 1168 01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:50,280 I'll second that. 1169 01:37:50,280 --> 01:37:52,040 All in favor say aye. 1170 01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:53,040 Aye. 1171 01:37:53,040 --> 01:37:57,960 Sustain the key. 1172 01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:02,760 Next is question 75. 1173 01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:19,560 I'm actually going to withdraw my appeal. 1174 01:38:19,560 --> 01:38:23,160 Okay, consider it done. 1175 01:38:23,160 --> 01:38:28,440 Thank you, Officer Johnson. 1176 01:38:28,440 --> 01:38:38,200 Next is item 85, there are two of Sarah Keith and Travis Nicholas. 1177 01:38:38,200 --> 01:38:44,640 Sarah, I don't know if it's appropriate or inappropriate, but ladies first. 1178 01:38:44,640 --> 01:38:49,400 Sorry, that was a bad joke. 1179 01:38:49,400 --> 01:38:51,520 I apologize. 1180 01:38:51,520 --> 01:38:55,680 That's all right. 1181 01:38:55,680 --> 01:39:00,200 Before everybody's reference, I'll go ahead and read the question. 1182 01:39:00,200 --> 01:39:04,960 It stated, an individual's car breaks down in the middle of the road at night. 1183 01:39:04,960 --> 01:39:09,640 The automobile is just over the crest of a hill and is not immediately visible by traffic 1184 01:39:09,640 --> 01:39:11,520 moving in that lane. 1185 01:39:11,520 --> 01:39:15,480 The individual abandons the car in total disregard for the safety of others. 1186 01:39:15,480 --> 01:39:19,960 He does not turn on the automobile's warning flasher and makes no effort to signal other 1187 01:39:19,960 --> 01:39:21,640 motorists. 1188 01:39:21,640 --> 01:39:26,140 Another motorist drives over the hill and rams the rear of the disabled car. 1189 01:39:26,140 --> 01:39:30,080 The motorist is seriously injured, which is the most serious offense committed by the 1190 01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:32,840 operator of the disabled vehicle. 1191 01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:42,560 The options were A, reckless driving, B, illegal parking, C, aggravated assault, or D, criminal 1192 01:39:42,560 --> 01:39:43,560 mischief. 1193 01:39:43,560 --> 01:39:51,520 The first basis for the argument for my appeal would be under the source material that we 1194 01:39:51,520 --> 01:39:53,360 were given. 1195 01:39:53,360 --> 01:40:00,960 The source material included Texas Penal Code, including Section 2201, which is assault, 1196 01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:08,120 Section 2204, injury to a child, Section 3103, theft, Section 32.47, fraudulent destruction, 1197 01:40:08,120 --> 01:40:16,160 removal, or consummate of writing, and Chapter 49, intoxication and alcoholic beverage offenses. 1198 01:40:16,160 --> 01:40:23,520 Aggravated assault is Section 2202, which was not included in our source material. 1199 01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:30,300 The second basis for the appeal of this question is that there are too many assumptions that 1200 01:40:30,300 --> 01:40:33,280 must be made based on the scenario. 1201 01:40:33,280 --> 01:40:35,880 We don't know why the vehicle was disabled. 1202 01:40:35,880 --> 01:40:40,280 We don't know the type of roadway that this was on. 1203 01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:45,480 Both the reason why the vehicle was disabled could give explanation as to why the warning 1204 01:40:45,480 --> 01:40:50,720 hazards were not used and could give explanation as to why the vehicle wasn't moved out of 1205 01:40:50,720 --> 01:40:51,720 the roadway. 1206 01:40:51,720 --> 01:41:09,360 The other assumption is that why did he not make any attempt to notify or warn other drivers? 1207 01:41:09,360 --> 01:41:12,680 We don't know if he had a cell phone. 1208 01:41:12,680 --> 01:41:16,760 We assume most people do, but we don't know if he did. 1209 01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:24,880 We assume his level of intelligence that might give him ability to, or his level of comfort 1210 01:41:24,880 --> 01:41:30,480 in walking to a nearby house, he may not feel safe doing so. 1211 01:41:30,480 --> 01:41:36,040 There's really nothing in there that says why he didn't notify anybody. 1212 01:41:36,040 --> 01:41:41,480 Because there's too many things that need to be assumed for an officer to be able to 1213 01:41:41,480 --> 01:41:44,400 conclude that the action was reckless. 1214 01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:49,160 You don't even meet the elements of the offense for aggravated assault, which requires that 1215 01:41:49,160 --> 01:41:58,700 the state of mind for the suspect would have to be reckless. 1216 01:41:58,700 --> 01:42:03,960 And that would be the basis of my appeal. 1217 01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:07,560 Okay, thank you. 1218 01:42:07,560 --> 01:42:08,560 Nicholas? 1219 01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:15,520 Do you have anything to add to that? 1220 01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:18,760 Yes, sir. 1221 01:42:18,760 --> 01:42:27,800 I was assuming that this was coming from Section 22.01 for assault, and also included in there. 1222 01:42:27,800 --> 01:42:30,840 I'll just read it out. 1223 01:42:30,840 --> 01:42:37,300 So assault is A, a person commits an offense if the person, one, intentionally, knowingly, 1224 01:42:37,300 --> 01:42:42,740 or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse. 1225 01:42:42,740 --> 01:42:49,920 Number two, intentionally, or knowingly, threatens another with imminent bodily injury. 1226 01:42:49,920 --> 01:43:03,200 So I think this question negates to determine if the operator who left his vehicle, he 1227 01:43:03,200 --> 01:43:10,040 didn't threaten another person with any kind of imminent danger or, you know, bodily injury. 1228 01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:17,680 So there was no, we're missing a threat. 1229 01:43:17,680 --> 01:43:22,840 Okay. 1230 01:43:22,840 --> 01:43:27,040 So are you saying that aggravated assault has to include a threat? 1231 01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:33,280 Is that what you're saying, Officer Nicholas? 1232 01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:41,880 One second. 1233 01:43:41,880 --> 01:43:49,680 So from my understanding, the assault itself has to have the threat. 1234 01:43:49,680 --> 01:43:57,480 The aggravated is including a weapon, which makes the assault an aggravated assault. 1235 01:43:57,480 --> 01:44:05,800 So without a threat, as the penal code states, we don't even have a threat with the scenario 1236 01:44:05,800 --> 01:44:07,320 that we're presented with. 1237 01:44:07,320 --> 01:44:16,120 There's no threat. 1238 01:44:16,120 --> 01:44:33,480 May we go to the source material, please? 1239 01:44:33,480 --> 01:44:47,000 Okay. 1240 01:44:47,000 --> 01:45:13,160 Can we get, Chairman Ramsey, is it too early to ask for the police response? 1241 01:45:13,160 --> 01:45:19,360 No, I was giving you time to read. 1242 01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:21,360 Yes, sir. 1243 01:45:21,360 --> 01:45:26,600 There is sufficient information contained in this question to direct you to the correct 1244 01:45:26,600 --> 01:45:27,600 answer. 1245 01:45:27,600 --> 01:45:29,480 It is the middle of the night. 1246 01:45:29,480 --> 01:45:32,040 So you know that it's dark. 1247 01:45:32,040 --> 01:45:37,880 It's just over the crest of the hill and not immediately visible by traffic. 1248 01:45:37,880 --> 01:45:44,480 And that person abandons the vehicle in total disregard for the safety of others. 1249 01:45:44,480 --> 01:45:50,520 That to me, I think to any reasonable person would be considered reckless. 1250 01:45:50,520 --> 01:45:56,040 The actions of that person leaving the car in the roadway constitutes the assault. 1251 01:45:56,040 --> 01:46:01,400 They recklessly caused the bodily injury when another car crashed into them. 1252 01:46:01,400 --> 01:46:03,920 There is no requirement for a threat to be present. 1253 01:46:03,920 --> 01:46:08,920 There's no and after that sentence, intentionally knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury 1254 01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:11,720 to another, including the person's spouse. 1255 01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:14,680 That's the definition of assault. 1256 01:46:14,680 --> 01:46:22,080 The aggravated assault comes in with the presence of serious bodily injury or the use or threatened 1257 01:46:22,080 --> 01:46:24,360 use of a deadly weapon. 1258 01:46:24,360 --> 01:46:28,960 Even without the aggravated assault being in the source material, the best answer is 1259 01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:35,560 still assault. 1260 01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:38,520 One of the objections was that aggravated assault is 2201. 1261 01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:46,220 It's not in the source material, but neither are any of those other choices. 1262 01:46:46,220 --> 01:46:48,240 Illegal parking is in the transportation code. 1263 01:46:48,240 --> 01:46:52,200 Reckless driving is a section of the penal code that's not in the source material, as 1264 01:46:52,200 --> 01:46:54,800 well as criminal misdemeanor. 1265 01:46:54,800 --> 01:46:58,980 I think assault is the best answer, which is the key answer. 1266 01:46:58,980 --> 01:47:02,800 I didn't have the source material. 1267 01:47:02,800 --> 01:47:09,040 Does the source material, and this may be something we have to dig for, did the source 1268 01:47:09,040 --> 01:47:21,120 material specifically say Texas Penal Code 22.01 and 22.02, or did it say Texas Penal 1269 01:47:21,120 --> 01:47:25,280 Code 20, Chapter 22? 1270 01:47:25,280 --> 01:47:26,280 It says 22.01. 1271 01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:27,280 Assault is in 2201. 1272 01:47:27,280 --> 01:47:28,280 Aggravated assault is 2202. 1273 01:47:28,280 --> 01:47:29,280 I'm sorry. 1274 01:47:29,280 --> 01:47:30,920 In the source material that they were studying, 2202 is not included. 1275 01:47:30,920 --> 01:47:31,920 Correct? 1276 01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:32,920 Correct. 1277 01:47:32,920 --> 01:47:33,920 Okay. 1278 01:47:33,920 --> 01:47:36,920 Can we go back to 2201 again, please? 1279 01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:51,920 Sure. 1280 01:47:51,920 --> 01:48:20,640 So, what I'm looking for, I'm not sure what John's looking for. 1281 01:48:20,640 --> 01:48:34,820 In 2201, Lieutenant Barron's, where does it specifically say aggravated assault? 1282 01:48:34,820 --> 01:48:37,680 It does not. 1283 01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:44,400 To have an aggravated assault, you have to have an assault as defined by 2201 and serious 1284 01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:57,200 bodily injury or the use of a deadly weapon. 1285 01:48:57,200 --> 01:49:01,200 The aggravated is just a higher level of assault. 1286 01:49:01,200 --> 01:49:07,000 It's a qualifier of the level of assault. 1287 01:49:07,000 --> 01:49:11,360 I'm having difficulty making that stretch or that connection. 1288 01:49:11,360 --> 01:49:14,940 Can you explain that again for me, please? 1289 01:49:14,940 --> 01:49:19,560 Aggravated, what makes an aggravated versus just assault? 1290 01:49:19,560 --> 01:49:26,360 An aggravated assault is you have to have an assault first under 2201. 1291 01:49:26,360 --> 01:49:31,520 To make it aggravated, a deadly weapon has to be used or threatened to be used, or there 1292 01:49:31,520 --> 01:49:35,520 has to be serious bodily injury. 1293 01:49:35,520 --> 01:49:39,720 All right. 1294 01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:53,040 So, in using a vehicle, how do you get from 2201 to having a vehicle, making it aggravated? 1295 01:49:53,040 --> 01:49:55,640 I'm stretching for that connection. 1296 01:49:55,640 --> 01:50:01,520 The vehicle, it's the conduct of the operator of the vehicle leaving the vehicle in the 1297 01:50:01,520 --> 01:50:04,080 roadway that caused the injury. 1298 01:50:04,080 --> 01:50:06,240 That is the assault. 1299 01:50:06,240 --> 01:50:08,240 I can see that. 1300 01:50:08,240 --> 01:50:09,800 Okay? 1301 01:50:09,800 --> 01:50:14,920 Where it gets to be aggravated is because there was serious bodily injury, and that 1302 01:50:14,920 --> 01:50:19,280 information is in the question. 1303 01:50:19,280 --> 01:50:22,440 So let's go back to the question again. 1304 01:50:22,440 --> 01:50:27,680 We're just going to walk through it a little bit here because there are some holes in this 1305 01:50:27,680 --> 01:50:28,680 description. 1306 01:50:28,680 --> 01:50:35,440 It says an individual's car breaks down in the middle of the road at night. 1307 01:50:35,440 --> 01:50:42,260 The automobile is just over the crest of a hill and is not immediately visible by traffic 1308 01:50:42,260 --> 01:50:44,520 moving in that lane. 1309 01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:55,200 So the individual abandons the car, and then this is the part that's, I don't know, somebody's 1310 01:50:55,200 --> 01:50:59,200 making this determination in total disregard for the safety of others. 1311 01:50:59,200 --> 01:51:15,920 I don't know, if I'm, on a trip from here to Austin, I'm driving with my 24s on my SUV. 1312 01:51:15,920 --> 01:51:21,320 I have a blowout, and I have to pull over to the side of the road, and there's no light 1313 01:51:21,320 --> 01:51:23,120 out there at all. 1314 01:51:23,120 --> 01:51:29,020 I'm on the, I mean, I didn't intend for it to break down, but I can't say. 1315 01:51:29,020 --> 01:51:33,220 I did it to intentionally hurt someone. 1316 01:51:33,220 --> 01:51:36,700 I had a breakdown. 1317 01:51:36,700 --> 01:51:44,320 So I'm just, I'm struggling with a person that has a breakdown in a difficult situation 1318 01:51:44,320 --> 01:51:54,880 making that, what's the word, the modifier, aggravated assault. 1319 01:51:54,880 --> 01:52:00,200 Well and to respond to that briefly is, you said yourself, you pulled to the side of the 1320 01:52:00,200 --> 01:52:01,200 road. 1321 01:52:01,200 --> 01:52:02,200 Yes. 1322 01:52:02,200 --> 01:52:04,800 You didn't leave your car in the middle of the road. 1323 01:52:04,800 --> 01:52:05,800 Right. 1324 01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:11,600 Without a shoulder, there's overpasses where there is nowhere to pull over. 1325 01:52:11,600 --> 01:52:16,360 And that's not stated in the question, what type of roadway that this was on. 1326 01:52:16,360 --> 01:52:18,400 It does say the middle of the road. 1327 01:52:18,400 --> 01:52:25,200 If you have a breakdown, if my car just stops, then you don't really have a choice. 1328 01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:26,200 Yeah. 1329 01:52:26,200 --> 01:52:32,240 If your axle falls out of your car, you can't move it to the shoulder. 1330 01:52:32,240 --> 01:52:38,160 So I'm not fighting you, Lieutenant Barron, I'm not fighting you, I'm just, I'm just struggling 1331 01:52:38,160 --> 01:52:39,160 with the example. 1332 01:52:39,160 --> 01:52:46,040 The next sentence in the description, in the scenario that they're giving, says they didn't 1333 01:52:46,040 --> 01:52:53,160 turn on the warning flashers or make no effort to signal other motorists by using something 1334 01:52:53,160 --> 01:53:00,200 like flares or flashlights or anything like that. 1335 01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:07,080 That's the next sentence in the descriptor, which would continue to describe just leaving 1336 01:53:07,080 --> 01:53:09,520 it in the middle of the road. 1337 01:53:09,520 --> 01:53:21,520 I mean, if you were then trying by using flashers and flares and/or flares, at least you were 1338 01:53:21,520 --> 01:53:27,240 trying to warn people and that might take the aggravated assault out of it, even though 1339 01:53:27,240 --> 01:53:30,800 it happened and there was serious injury. 1340 01:53:30,800 --> 01:53:41,240 But it's in the description of the question, of the situation in the question. 1341 01:53:41,240 --> 01:53:49,120 So if your axle fell out and you didn't do anything about it, didn't turn on your flashers, 1342 01:53:49,120 --> 01:53:57,520 didn't do any flares or try to signal to somebody from the side of the road or anything, what 1343 01:53:57,520 --> 01:54:09,680 would be the most serious charge that could be elicited that might be aggravated assault? 1344 01:54:09,680 --> 01:54:18,400 >> May I add one point, please? 1345 01:54:18,400 --> 01:54:19,400 >> Yes. 1346 01:54:19,400 --> 01:54:20,400 Travis? 1347 01:54:20,400 --> 01:54:21,400 >> Yes, sir. 1348 01:54:21,400 --> 01:54:22,400 >> Sit down. 1349 01:54:22,400 --> 01:54:23,400 I'll get back to you next. 1350 01:54:23,400 --> 01:54:24,400 I saw your hand. 1351 01:54:24,400 --> 01:54:28,120 Go ahead, Travis. 1352 01:54:28,120 --> 01:54:37,920 >> So as Lieutenant Baron stated that the other three answers were not a part of the 1353 01:54:37,920 --> 01:54:42,160 source material, then SOAT 2 is true with aggravated assault. 1354 01:54:42,160 --> 01:54:47,920 That's not a part of the material as well because the material starts at 22.01, which 1355 01:54:47,920 --> 01:54:49,680 is just assault. 1356 01:54:49,680 --> 01:54:53,960 So you have to have 22.02 to get to your aggravated assault. 1357 01:54:53,960 --> 01:55:00,080 So 22.02 is not source material as well. 1358 01:55:00,080 --> 01:55:04,480 >> Sarah, thank you. 1359 01:55:04,480 --> 01:55:10,640 >> That was the same point I was going to make, is that if the other answers aren't 1360 01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:15,520 valid because they weren't source material penal code, then aggravated assault isn't 1361 01:55:15,520 --> 01:55:18,960 valid either because it's not source material penal code. 1362 01:55:18,960 --> 01:55:25,240 The specific 22.01 was listed, 22.02 was not listed. 1363 01:55:25,240 --> 01:55:31,560 They did list an entire Chapter 49, which they could have done an entire Chapter 22, 1364 01:55:31,560 --> 01:55:32,560 but they didn't. 1365 01:55:32,560 --> 01:55:43,960 They specifically listed 22.01, not 22.01 and 22.02, and not 22.02 by itself. 1366 01:55:43,960 --> 01:55:54,920 >> So both of you are saying that given what you've just said, B, illegal parking is the 1367 01:55:54,920 --> 01:55:56,160 correct answer. 1368 01:55:56,160 --> 01:55:58,160 Is that correct? 1369 01:55:58,160 --> 01:56:01,200 >> Yes, sir. 1370 01:56:01,200 --> 01:56:02,960 >> Correct. 1371 01:56:02,960 --> 01:56:13,520 >> That's the answer that I selected, but if none of them are source material, then 1372 01:56:13,520 --> 01:56:18,880 so true as with aggravated assault, that's not source material either, but the answer 1373 01:56:18,880 --> 01:56:22,960 that I selected was illegal parking. 1374 01:56:22,960 --> 01:56:36,800 >> Lieutenant Barron, is it true then that none of these are listed in 22.01, none of 1375 01:56:36,800 --> 01:56:40,440 these answers? 1376 01:56:40,440 --> 01:56:41,440 >> Aggravated assault is in 22.02. 1377 01:56:41,440 --> 01:56:42,440 >> Yes, sir. 1378 01:56:42,440 --> 01:56:47,200 >> Assault is in 22.01. 1379 01:56:47,200 --> 01:56:49,720 The aggravated is just the level of the assault. 1380 01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:55,280 I would submit that assault is still the best answer of whatever category it is, and assault 1381 01:56:55,280 --> 01:57:01,320 is in 22.01. 1382 01:57:01,320 --> 01:57:05,360 You have to have an assault first to have an aggravated assault. 1383 01:57:05,360 --> 01:57:14,680 >> But you have to have a weapon, though. 1384 01:57:14,680 --> 01:57:16,680 You don't have to have a weapon? 1385 01:57:16,680 --> 01:57:17,680 >> No, sir. 1386 01:57:17,680 --> 01:57:18,680 Can we pull up 22.02? 1387 01:57:18,680 --> 01:57:23,320 >> But the way you have aggravated assault listed is separated the same way that sexual 1388 01:57:23,320 --> 01:57:26,200 assault differentiates from regular assault. 1389 01:57:26,200 --> 01:57:31,520 Each of them have their own section. 1390 01:57:31,520 --> 01:57:38,640 Sexual assault is its own section, aggravated assault is its own section, and it goes into 1391 01:57:38,640 --> 01:57:43,160 the specifics of what makes an aggravated assault an aggravated assault. 1392 01:57:43,160 --> 01:57:45,760 It's a completely different charge. 1393 01:57:45,760 --> 01:57:52,320 It's not the same way that theft is its own section with different levels of theft that 1394 01:57:52,320 --> 01:57:59,180 make it Class C, B, A, and so on all the way up to higher levels of felony. 1395 01:57:59,180 --> 01:58:02,640 Those are all within the same section of theft. 1396 01:58:02,640 --> 01:58:09,840 But for aggravated assault and assault, they are their own sections. 1397 01:58:09,840 --> 01:58:14,280 >> Can we scroll down to 22.02? 1398 01:58:14,280 --> 01:58:20,680 >> Well, if it's not source material, if it's not listed in the source material that we 1399 01:58:20,680 --> 01:58:23,640 approved, then it's a moot point. 1400 01:58:23,640 --> 01:58:24,640 >> Yes, sir. 1401 01:58:24,640 --> 01:58:31,480 >> I mean, I know what you -- I mean, I understand. 1402 01:58:31,480 --> 01:58:41,200 The term aggravated then makes it a different level and makes it a wrong answer. 1403 01:58:41,200 --> 01:58:46,120 So assault -- so if you're looking at these and you're thinking, "Oh, well, it would be 1404 01:58:46,120 --> 01:58:52,400 an assault, but it's not an aggravated assault," so that's a wrong answer, which one of these 1405 01:58:52,400 --> 01:59:00,360 are the right answer as a test taker, you'd look at it that way. 1406 01:59:00,360 --> 01:59:13,880 So, you know, if aggravated -- the word aggravated nullifies answer C, because if it were just 1407 01:59:13,880 --> 01:59:17,960 assault, it would be the right answer. 1408 01:59:17,960 --> 01:59:26,360 Aggravated assault brings in a whole different set of factors into it. 1409 01:59:26,360 --> 01:59:43,280 So if aggravated assault is not the correct answer, which is the most serious offense 1410 01:59:43,280 --> 01:59:54,720 minus aggravated assault, Mr. Barron -- Lieutenant Barron's. 1411 01:59:54,720 --> 01:59:58,400 >> I would still say that assault is the best answer. 1412 01:59:58,400 --> 02:00:01,400 >> But aggravated assault is different from assault. 1413 02:00:01,400 --> 02:00:04,700 >> You have to have an assault to have had an aggravated assault. 1414 02:00:04,700 --> 02:00:09,120 >> But you don't have to have an aggravated assault. 1415 02:00:09,120 --> 02:00:16,160 See, that brings it to a whole new level as an answer. 1416 02:00:16,160 --> 02:00:20,680 An assault and an aggravated assault are not the same thing. 1417 02:00:20,680 --> 02:00:24,400 You can have an assault without it being aggravated assault, correct? 1418 02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:26,060 >> That is correct. 1419 02:00:26,060 --> 02:00:32,920 And that's still a higher charge than any of those others. 1420 02:00:32,920 --> 02:00:41,760 >> You're making life difficult for us. 1421 02:00:41,760 --> 02:00:44,760 The company is making life difficult for us. 1422 02:00:44,760 --> 02:00:48,960 >> It's difficult to write questions out of a penal code, because everything is going 1423 02:00:48,960 --> 02:00:55,000 to be a hypothetical. 1424 02:00:55,000 --> 02:01:07,600 >> John, my thought -- my thought on this, and I guess I'll make this in form of a motion, 1425 02:01:07,600 --> 02:01:21,920 if I may, is that we accept B and C. That way, if the test takers thought, oh, it's 1426 02:01:21,920 --> 02:01:26,940 an assault, it might not be aggravated, but it's an assault, so we'll put that one as 1427 02:01:26,940 --> 02:01:36,400 the worst -- but also, if you thought aggravated assault -- it's not aggravated, so therefore 1428 02:01:36,400 --> 02:01:41,040 it's got to be one of the other three. 1429 02:01:41,040 --> 02:01:53,080 >> I'm not sure which one is the worst of the other three. 1430 02:01:53,080 --> 02:01:54,080 >> So -- 1431 02:01:54,080 --> 02:01:55,960 >> My motion would be to accept B and C. 1432 02:01:55,960 --> 02:01:56,960 >> Okay. 1433 02:01:56,960 --> 02:01:59,840 I will second that motion, and then we'll have some discussion. 1434 02:01:59,840 --> 02:02:00,840 >> Okay. 1435 02:02:00,840 --> 02:02:13,400 Is there anyone who would like to speak in opposition to the appeal? 1436 02:02:13,400 --> 02:02:14,400 Okay. 1437 02:02:14,400 --> 02:02:15,400 Discuss. 1438 02:02:15,400 --> 02:02:27,840 >> Like you were saying, Lieutenant Behrens, you know, you're dealing with a lot of hypotheticals, 1439 02:02:27,840 --> 02:02:36,840 and I'm just remembering my experience on the highway between here in Austin and getting 1440 02:02:36,840 --> 02:02:43,200 stranded, and I don't remember turning my lights on because in the middle of the night 1441 02:02:43,200 --> 02:02:50,320 I didn't really want to draw a lot of attention to myself. 1442 02:02:50,320 --> 02:02:58,240 I don't carry a weapon, so I'm defenseless, and so I'm in the middle of nowhere with a 1443 02:02:58,240 --> 02:03:09,640 flat tire, and so you kind of go into survival mode, and so I'm trying to -- I'm trying not 1444 02:03:09,640 --> 02:03:17,640 to rely exclusively on my experience, and I'm also -- apparently I'm very limited in 1445 02:03:17,640 --> 02:03:25,200 my understanding of the word assault, so I'll have to defer to your experience, but I thought 1446 02:03:25,200 --> 02:03:29,920 you had to have a weapon in order for it to go up from just assault to aggravated assault, 1447 02:03:29,920 --> 02:03:34,120 so apparently my understanding is tarnished, limited. 1448 02:03:34,120 --> 02:03:38,360 So I would go with your two, Daryl, B and C. 1449 02:03:38,360 --> 02:03:49,400 Okay, I'm not going to change, but I do have a question. 1450 02:03:49,400 --> 02:03:53,240 Maybe it's just for me to know. 1451 02:03:53,240 --> 02:04:02,660 Would a vehicle be -- could a vehicle be considered a weapon? 1452 02:04:02,660 --> 02:04:05,240 If that question is for me, then yes, certainly. 1453 02:04:05,240 --> 02:04:06,240 Okay. 1454 02:04:06,240 --> 02:04:10,920 I don't know if anybody wants to answer it, but I -- so it could -- so there is the presence 1455 02:04:10,920 --> 02:04:17,240 of a weapon, technically, because there's a vehicle there that's in the way. 1456 02:04:17,240 --> 02:04:22,600 A wall could be a weapon if you put it out in front of a road and somebody drove into 1457 02:04:22,600 --> 02:04:23,600 it, correct? 1458 02:04:23,600 --> 02:04:24,600 A what? 1459 02:04:24,600 --> 02:04:32,040 A wall, or a pole, or anything that you would -- a sewing machine that you could drive into 1460 02:04:32,040 --> 02:04:37,120 could be a weapon, but that's a little far-fetched. 1461 02:04:37,120 --> 02:04:38,120 So -- 1462 02:04:38,120 --> 02:04:40,920 Officer Keith has a question, a comment. 1463 02:04:40,920 --> 02:04:41,920 Yes, ma'am. 1464 02:04:41,920 --> 02:04:48,840 I think one thing that we learn in our training is that anything has to be evaluated on the 1465 02:04:48,840 --> 02:04:55,360 way that it's used, and if you use a vehicle as a weapon, you would have to drive it at 1466 02:04:55,360 --> 02:04:59,120 somebody or direct it to do something. 1467 02:04:59,120 --> 02:05:03,240 That car, there by itself, was not being used as a weapon. 1468 02:05:03,240 --> 02:05:04,240 Okay. 1469 02:05:04,240 --> 02:05:08,400 No intention for the vehicle to hurt anybody. 1470 02:05:08,400 --> 02:05:11,400 Okay. 1471 02:05:11,400 --> 02:05:13,360 Is that a consensus agreement? 1472 02:05:13,360 --> 02:05:14,360 Okay. 1473 02:05:14,360 --> 02:05:27,080 So, the motion on the floor is to accept B and C. There's no other -- there was no other 1474 02:05:27,080 --> 02:05:30,440 discussion, all in favor of the motion, say aye. 1475 02:05:30,440 --> 02:05:31,440 Aye. 1476 02:05:31,440 --> 02:05:32,440 Opposed? 1477 02:05:32,440 --> 02:05:33,440 Okay. 1478 02:05:33,440 --> 02:05:49,840 B and C. Next is question 88, and there's two there, Jared and Trattis. 1479 02:05:49,840 --> 02:05:55,640 Jared, are you still there with us? 1480 02:05:55,640 --> 02:05:57,080 Yes, sir, I'm here. 1481 02:05:57,080 --> 02:06:01,760 We'll let you go first since you haven't been here in a while. 1482 02:06:01,760 --> 02:06:02,760 Okay. 1483 02:06:02,760 --> 02:06:05,760 So, would you like me to read the question? 1484 02:06:05,760 --> 02:06:12,000 We have the question -- we have the question in front of us, so I don't think it's necessary. 1485 02:06:12,000 --> 02:06:13,000 Okay. 1486 02:06:13,000 --> 02:06:23,200 So, on this particular question, after reading the excerpt, it asks, "Jack may properly be 1487 02:06:23,200 --> 02:06:31,360 charged with -- I believe injury to a child and criminally negligent homicide would be 1488 02:06:31,360 --> 02:06:43,600 the appropriate charges," plural, "for the simple fact of injury to a child is for serious 1489 02:06:43,600 --> 02:06:49,840 bodily injury or death, and the culpable mental state is going to be intentionally, knowingly 1490 02:06:49,840 --> 02:06:54,780 or recklessly or with criminal negligence, by act of intentionally, knowingly or recklessly 1491 02:06:54,780 --> 02:07:02,200 by omission, causes to a child, elderly individual or disabled individual, serious bodily injury, 1492 02:07:02,200 --> 02:07:25,520 serious mental deficiency, impairment or injury, or bottle injury, or likewise, on the other, 1493 02:07:25,520 --> 02:07:31,640 for criminal negligent homicide, the person is acting with criminal negligence, okay, 1494 02:07:31,640 --> 02:07:36,800 or is criminally negligent with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the 1495 02:07:36,800 --> 02:07:44,000 result of his conduct when he ought to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk 1496 02:07:44,000 --> 02:07:47,760 that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. 1497 02:07:47,760 --> 02:07:54,200 The result must be of such a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes 1498 02:07:54,200 --> 02:07:59,640 a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under 1499 02:07:59,640 --> 02:08:05,080 all circumstances as viewed from the actor's standpoint. 1500 02:08:05,080 --> 02:08:14,120 So on that particular one, I had put, "Criminal negligent homicide," because I believe that 1501 02:08:14,120 --> 02:08:20,000 that actually would be the offense, because again, it's saying what may he be charged 1502 02:08:20,000 --> 02:08:25,280 with, he may be charged with either offense. 1503 02:08:25,280 --> 02:08:32,760 >> I think it's negligent either way. 1504 02:08:32,760 --> 02:08:33,760 >> Okay. 1505 02:08:33,760 --> 02:08:38,160 I'll hold my question for just one second. 1506 02:08:38,160 --> 02:08:43,960 Travis, you want to add anything to that? 1507 02:08:43,960 --> 02:08:48,320 >> Yes, sir. 1508 02:08:48,320 --> 02:08:59,440 >> Mine is pretty much on the same line as Officer Ray. 1509 02:08:59,440 --> 02:09:11,780 What I would add to that is the criminal negligence is more along the lines that they -- Jack 1510 02:09:11,780 --> 02:09:16,160 and/or Jill did not -- they neglected the need of the child. 1511 02:09:16,160 --> 02:09:21,960 So it wasn't, you know, and therefore, that's why I select the criminal negligence, because 1512 02:09:21,960 --> 02:09:26,160 they neglected whatever it was that, you know, the child needed. 1513 02:09:26,160 --> 02:09:31,920 In this case, I think it was saying get into the emergency room. 1514 02:09:31,920 --> 02:09:39,040 Then also, my second point is that I think when I discussed this with Lieutenant Barron's 1515 02:09:39,040 --> 02:09:43,320 initially, we had a conversation about it. 1516 02:09:43,320 --> 02:09:50,120 And I think the response was, and I'm paraphrasing that, injury to a child is a higher charge 1517 02:09:50,120 --> 02:09:54,400 than criminal negligence homicide, which I do agree. 1518 02:09:54,400 --> 02:10:00,840 But as a, you know, as a patrol officer, I'm not necessarily responsible for knowing, at 1519 02:10:00,840 --> 02:10:06,760 the time I'm charging somebody, which charge is going to be higher or, you know, less than 1520 02:10:06,760 --> 02:10:08,560 the other. 1521 02:10:08,560 --> 02:10:11,440 We're not required to make that determination. 1522 02:10:11,440 --> 02:10:18,920 We're required to make a charge that fits the situation, and that will more than likely, 1523 02:10:18,920 --> 02:10:21,440 for lack of better words, stick. 1524 02:10:21,440 --> 02:10:28,080 So just by saying that injury to a child is a higher charge should be, you know, the correct 1525 02:10:28,080 --> 02:10:29,080 answer. 1526 02:10:29,080 --> 02:10:35,240 I don't -- you know, we've never been trained that stick with the higher charge. 1527 02:10:35,240 --> 02:10:44,080 Okay, let's do that first. 1528 02:10:44,080 --> 02:11:00,080 >> I'm sorry, sir, did you ask for the Department of Response? 1529 02:11:00,080 --> 02:11:01,080 >> I did. 1530 02:11:01,080 --> 02:11:02,080 >> Yes, sir. 1531 02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:08,360 >> Injury to a child is specifically written to protect child victims. 1532 02:11:08,360 --> 02:11:13,600 That charge in the situation as described is a first-degree felony. 1533 02:11:13,600 --> 02:11:18,960 Criminally negligent homicide is a state jail felony, which is a much lower charge. 1534 02:11:18,960 --> 02:11:29,540 And it doesn't have a specific reference to protecting a child or an at-risk population. 1535 02:11:29,540 --> 02:11:35,040 One thing that Officer Nicholas mentioned is that as a patrol officer, this is a test 1536 02:11:35,040 --> 02:11:47,440 to be a sergeant, and sergeants are expected to know the proper charges to file. 1537 02:11:47,440 --> 02:11:51,480 >> Okay. 1538 02:11:51,480 --> 02:11:58,240 Questions, John, of any other parties involved? 1539 02:11:58,240 --> 02:12:14,440 So in the source material, did we mainly reference the injury to a child or criminally negligent 1540 02:12:14,440 --> 02:12:15,440 homicide? 1541 02:12:15,440 --> 02:12:21,040 >> 2204, I'm sorry, was that question for me? 1542 02:12:21,040 --> 02:12:23,920 >> For whomever, I'm sorry. 1543 02:12:23,920 --> 02:12:30,160 >> I'll have a last edit, 2204 is in the source material, and criminally negligent homicide 1544 02:12:30,160 --> 02:12:34,120 is in Chapter 19, which is not. 1545 02:12:34,120 --> 02:12:39,080 >> So criminally negligent homicide was not part of the source material? 1546 02:12:39,080 --> 02:12:41,480 >> It was not. 1547 02:12:41,480 --> 02:12:42,480 >> Okay. 1548 02:12:42,480 --> 02:12:43,840 Thank you. 1549 02:12:43,840 --> 02:12:49,120 >> Can I add something, Mr. Gerard Ray? 1550 02:12:49,120 --> 02:12:50,120 >> Yes, sir. 1551 02:12:50,120 --> 02:12:56,440 >> Well, Lieutenant Barron's just mentioned something a second ago that it was a first 1552 02:12:56,440 --> 02:13:03,320 degree or second degree felony, however, with injury to a child, it's also a state jail 1553 02:13:03,320 --> 02:13:09,240 felony whenever the person acts with criminal negligence and by omission. 1554 02:13:09,240 --> 02:13:19,800 So by definition, it should be either answer. 1555 02:13:19,800 --> 02:13:21,680 Mr. Ray, this is John Baines. 1556 02:13:21,680 --> 02:13:33,600 I was going to ask you, so when given the study materials, the injury to a child was 1557 02:13:33,600 --> 02:13:41,640 specifically given, but criminally negligent homicide, because of your knowledge and profession, 1558 02:13:41,640 --> 02:13:46,640 you knew that that was an option, but it was not directly in the source materials, was 1559 02:13:46,640 --> 02:13:47,640 it not? 1560 02:13:47,640 --> 02:13:48,640 >> That's correct. 1561 02:13:48,640 --> 02:13:49,640 >> Okay. 1562 02:13:49,640 --> 02:13:50,640 Thank you. 1563 02:13:50,640 --> 02:13:56,240 >> And that's why I'd pick the other one on aggravated assault versus illegal parking. 1564 02:13:56,240 --> 02:13:58,880 >> All right. 1565 02:13:58,880 --> 02:14:08,380 So you know, the question I was going to ask you a minute ago, I'm going to come back and 1566 02:14:08,380 --> 02:14:13,040 ask you, of the four choices -- 1567 02:14:13,040 --> 02:14:15,120 >> Yes, sir. 1568 02:14:15,120 --> 02:14:19,920 >> Which is the best answer, best? 1569 02:14:19,920 --> 02:14:27,320 >> I don't think it's the best answer, because it's asking what he may be charged with. 1570 02:14:27,320 --> 02:14:33,040 >> Which one is the best answer of those four? 1571 02:14:33,040 --> 02:14:39,120 >> I don't think there is one. 1572 02:14:39,120 --> 02:14:52,000 If injury to a child is a felony and a criminally negligent homicide is a state, I'm assuming 1573 02:14:52,000 --> 02:14:55,160 that that would make it a federal-type -- I mean -- 1574 02:14:55,160 --> 02:14:56,160 >> No, sir. 1575 02:14:56,160 --> 02:15:01,000 They're both going to be state, and the way that I actually see this is they're both done 1576 02:15:01,000 --> 02:15:06,440 with criminal negligence, so they're both going to be a state jail felony. 1577 02:15:06,440 --> 02:15:14,840 They did not intentionally or knowingly kill this kid. 1578 02:15:14,840 --> 02:15:25,600 >> So, Travis, I'll ask you the same question. 1579 02:15:25,600 --> 02:15:32,480 Which do you think is the best answer? 1580 02:15:32,480 --> 02:15:38,800 To get the biggest bang for your buck, so to speak. 1581 02:15:38,800 --> 02:15:39,800 >> Right. 1582 02:15:39,800 --> 02:15:46,840 So, again, and we kind of counsel back and forth on this, and, you know, the question 1583 02:15:46,840 --> 02:15:52,880 states which one may he be charged with, and, again, that's -- I mean, I feel that it was 1584 02:15:52,880 --> 02:15:57,120 a criminal negligent homicide. 1585 02:15:57,120 --> 02:16:04,440 And then also, if I may, with all due respect, when Lieutenant Manz and I sat in office and 1586 02:16:04,440 --> 02:16:10,320 discussed this same question, Lieutenant Manz looked it up to find out which one had the 1587 02:16:10,320 --> 02:16:12,520 higher charge on the computer. 1588 02:16:12,520 --> 02:16:18,440 So I -- at the same time, if I'm a patrol officer -- and that's simply what I do. 1589 02:16:18,440 --> 02:16:22,960 Anytime I charge anybody with any offense, I get back and I do my report, and I look 1590 02:16:22,960 --> 02:16:28,240 it up on, you know, to make sure I'm doing the right offense, and that's exactly what 1591 02:16:28,240 --> 02:16:32,800 we did, and that's how we knew which one was the higher charge, injured to a child, because 1592 02:16:32,800 --> 02:16:41,520 we looked it up on the computer to determine which one was the higher charge. 1593 02:16:41,520 --> 02:16:52,080 >> John, any thoughts? 1594 02:16:52,080 --> 02:16:58,320 >> My thoughts are -- my hat's off to the ladies and gentlemen that do this for a living. 1595 02:16:58,320 --> 02:17:07,440 I would have thought that criminally negligent homicide had a higher penal code than injury 1596 02:17:07,440 --> 02:17:08,440 to a child. 1597 02:17:08,440 --> 02:17:16,440 I'm learning something all the time, so I didn't realize that was the more -- the more 1598 02:17:16,440 --> 02:17:21,520 punitive of the charges. 1599 02:17:21,520 --> 02:17:27,360 But I'm stuck, though, because in the source material, the source material was injured 1600 02:17:27,360 --> 02:17:34,680 to a child and not criminally negligent homicide, so I'm almost wanting to just stick with that, 1601 02:17:34,680 --> 02:17:38,240 but I hadn't decided yet. 1602 02:17:38,240 --> 02:17:41,240 Is where I am, Mr. Chairman. 1603 02:17:41,240 --> 02:17:42,240 >> Okay. 1604 02:17:42,240 --> 02:17:45,240 Time to decide. 1605 02:17:45,240 --> 02:17:47,160 >> Okay. 1606 02:17:47,160 --> 02:17:53,600 I'm going to -- I'm going to sustain the key, is my motion. 1607 02:17:53,600 --> 02:17:57,960 >> I'll second it. 1608 02:17:57,960 --> 02:18:00,000 I can live with that. 1609 02:18:00,000 --> 02:18:01,280 I can see both ways. 1610 02:18:01,280 --> 02:18:04,200 Travis, Jared, I hope you understand. 1611 02:18:04,200 --> 02:18:05,200 I can see both ways. 1612 02:18:05,200 --> 02:18:11,360 I see your point, but it's what we've got in front of us, and I think that that's the 1613 02:18:11,360 --> 02:18:12,360 problem. 1614 02:18:12,360 --> 02:18:16,240 So I will -- I will second your motion. 1615 02:18:16,240 --> 02:18:22,760 So all in favor of sustaining the key, say, "Aye." 1616 02:18:22,760 --> 02:18:24,160 >> Aye. 1617 02:18:24,160 --> 02:18:28,120 >> Next is question 92. 1618 02:18:28,120 --> 02:18:29,120 Paul. 1619 02:18:29,120 --> 02:18:30,620 Where's Paul? 1620 02:18:30,620 --> 02:18:33,120 There he is. 1621 02:18:33,120 --> 02:18:40,800 >> Sorry, I'm unmuted now, I think. 1622 02:18:40,800 --> 02:18:48,280 We're on to question 92, is that correct? 1623 02:18:48,280 --> 02:18:50,400 >> Yes, sir. 1624 02:18:50,400 --> 02:18:55,880 >> Let me turn my volume up here. 1625 02:18:55,880 --> 02:18:57,640 All right. 1626 02:18:57,640 --> 02:19:04,640 Question 92 states the correct answer -- let me read the scenario. 1627 02:19:04,640 --> 02:19:10,720 So it's Roy was an intoxicated -- Roy was intoxicated beyond the legal limit. 1628 02:19:10,720 --> 02:19:14,120 He failed to bring his vehicle to a stop. 1629 02:19:14,120 --> 02:19:16,960 The vehicle crashed through the window of a retail store. 1630 02:19:16,960 --> 02:19:23,000 Mary, a customer in the store, was struck by the vehicle and suffered a broken arm. 1631 02:19:23,000 --> 02:19:26,840 Which of the following best describes the offense which Roy, the driver of the vehicle, 1632 02:19:26,840 --> 02:19:28,880 has committed? 1633 02:19:28,880 --> 02:19:34,480 My argument is that the source material is not included in any of these answers. 1634 02:19:34,480 --> 02:19:38,100 So they're all incorrect. 1635 02:19:38,100 --> 02:19:45,520 The first answer is A, terroristic threat, B, intoxication, assault, and criminal mischief, 1636 02:19:45,520 --> 02:19:52,640 C, reckless damage and destruction, and intoxication, assault, and D, assault and burglary. 1637 02:19:52,640 --> 02:19:57,300 And the argument is that C is said to be the correct answer by the key. 1638 02:19:57,300 --> 02:20:02,280 Reckless damage and destruction, however, is part of penal code chapter 28, and that 1639 02:20:02,280 --> 02:20:05,200 is not listed in the source material. 1640 02:20:05,200 --> 02:20:10,480 Say that one more time, I'm sorry. 1641 02:20:10,480 --> 02:20:11,480 Sure. 1642 02:20:11,480 --> 02:20:12,480 I'm sorry? 1643 02:20:12,480 --> 02:20:17,160 You're saying C is not a part of the material? 1644 02:20:17,160 --> 02:20:22,560 C includes reckless damage and destruction and intoxication, assault. 1645 02:20:22,560 --> 02:20:25,320 Reckless damage and destruction is chapter 28 of the penal code. 1646 02:20:25,320 --> 02:20:28,280 It is not included in the source material. 1647 02:20:28,280 --> 02:20:32,680 But intoxication, assault, is with chapter 49. 1648 02:20:32,680 --> 02:20:34,680 Okay. 1649 02:20:34,680 --> 02:20:40,280 I answered intoxication, assault, and criminal mischief, which is B, which that's the same 1650 02:20:40,280 --> 02:20:41,280 thing. 1651 02:20:41,280 --> 02:20:48,000 One is in the source material, and one is not. 1652 02:20:48,000 --> 02:20:54,440 Could we actually see the source material that was referenced, please, for this question? 1653 02:20:54,440 --> 02:20:59,120 While she's getting that up, can we get the police response? 1654 02:20:59,120 --> 02:21:00,120 Certainly. 1655 02:21:00,120 --> 02:21:01,120 Yes, sir. 1656 02:21:01,120 --> 02:21:03,360 And he is correct. 1657 02:21:03,360 --> 02:21:10,000 Intoxication, assault, appear in both, or two of the choices, the only two that are 1658 02:21:10,000 --> 02:21:16,160 arguably correct, and they each contain intoxication, assault, which is out of the source material, 1659 02:21:16,160 --> 02:21:19,760 and then they contain, one of them contains criminal mischief, and one of them contains 1660 02:21:19,760 --> 02:21:21,760 reckless damage and destruction. 1661 02:21:21,760 --> 02:21:28,260 Neither one of those are included in the chapters of the source material. 1662 02:21:28,260 --> 02:21:33,880 In my response, I said that there is a base of knowledge that's assumed by the test takers. 1663 02:21:33,880 --> 02:21:37,960 They have to have a minimum of three years to sit for the test. 1664 02:21:37,960 --> 02:21:45,460 Criminal mischief and reckless damage are offenses that we deal with regularly, and 1665 02:21:45,460 --> 02:21:49,160 it would be presumed the officers would know the difference in the culpable mental state 1666 02:21:49,160 --> 02:21:52,760 in those two charges. 1667 02:21:52,760 --> 02:21:58,480 So in other words, the position is that B and C are both correct? 1668 02:21:58,480 --> 02:22:05,280 No, my position would be C is the only correct answer. 1669 02:22:05,280 --> 02:22:09,600 So I'm sorry, I missed something in your enumeration of your position. 1670 02:22:09,600 --> 02:22:11,080 Could you repeat that for me, please? 1671 02:22:11,080 --> 02:22:13,280 And I apologize, I missed it. 1672 02:22:13,280 --> 02:22:17,040 Now, both B and C include intoxication, assault. 1673 02:22:17,040 --> 02:22:18,040 Yes. 1674 02:22:18,040 --> 02:22:22,720 The only difference between them is one of them has criminal mischief, and one of them 1675 02:22:22,720 --> 02:22:25,400 has reckless damage or destruction. 1676 02:22:25,400 --> 02:22:28,960 Neither one of those components are contained in the source material. 1677 02:22:28,960 --> 02:22:35,160 However, those are offenses that patrol officers deal with regularly, and should know the difference 1678 02:22:35,160 --> 02:22:38,160 between them. 1679 02:22:38,160 --> 02:22:47,560 But here's the conundrum, they're not in the source material. 1680 02:22:47,560 --> 02:22:55,480 We screwed up on the source material, and meet and confer, as very specifically said, 1681 02:22:55,480 --> 02:22:59,760 it has to be in the source material. 1682 02:22:59,760 --> 02:23:05,600 So we can't assume common knowledge. 1683 02:23:05,600 --> 02:23:12,120 So the question then becomes, what do we do? 1684 02:23:12,120 --> 02:23:27,160 If none of the answers are correct and in the source material, then what do we do? 1685 02:23:27,160 --> 02:23:33,360 I'll defer to Stephanie, but I think that may be a situation where you have to throw 1686 02:23:33,360 --> 02:23:42,440 the question out altogether. 1687 02:23:42,440 --> 02:23:43,440 It doesn't seem appropriate. 1688 02:23:43,440 --> 02:23:48,840 I agree with you, Mr. Ramsey, that they should be testing, asking a question on something 1689 02:23:48,840 --> 02:23:50,640 that's not in the test material. 1690 02:23:50,640 --> 02:23:51,640 So. 1691 02:23:51,640 --> 02:23:56,000 Can I say one more thing? 1692 02:23:56,000 --> 02:23:57,000 Yes. 1693 02:23:57,000 --> 02:24:07,160 And I guess it's to Latone Barron's argument about the couple woman in the state. 1694 02:24:07,160 --> 02:24:11,720 I went with criminal mischief, because I do use that one a lot, we rarely use the other 1695 02:24:11,720 --> 02:24:15,800 one because reckless damage and destruction is negligent. 1696 02:24:15,800 --> 02:24:20,160 Somebody left their car parked and it rolled into somebody else's car or whatever. 1697 02:24:20,160 --> 02:24:25,280 The criminal mischief, he knew he was intoxicated and he went and drove anyway, so I don't think 1698 02:24:25,280 --> 02:24:29,340 that that would qualify as negligent. 1699 02:24:29,340 --> 02:24:36,320 We don't arrest people on negligent DWI's. 1700 02:24:36,320 --> 02:24:38,040 I would agree with that, Austin. 1701 02:24:38,040 --> 02:24:50,880 Would anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal? 1702 02:24:50,880 --> 02:24:51,880 Okay. 1703 02:24:51,880 --> 02:24:52,880 John. 1704 02:24:52,880 --> 02:24:53,880 Yes. 1705 02:24:53,880 --> 02:24:58,320 It's up to us. 1706 02:24:58,320 --> 02:25:02,260 My proposal would be to accept BNC. 1707 02:25:02,260 --> 02:25:05,400 That's where I was headed. 1708 02:25:05,400 --> 02:25:08,400 So I'll make a motion that we accept BNC. 1709 02:25:08,400 --> 02:25:09,400 I'll second that. 1710 02:25:09,400 --> 02:25:10,400 Okay. 1711 02:25:10,400 --> 02:25:13,400 All in favor say aye. 1712 02:25:13,400 --> 02:25:14,400 Aye. 1713 02:25:14,400 --> 02:25:28,680 Okay, Michael, that's another one, just so you know. 1714 02:25:28,680 --> 02:25:33,800 Next is 97, Derek, you're in. 1715 02:25:33,800 --> 02:25:34,800 Okay. 1716 02:25:34,800 --> 02:25:37,800 Can you hear me? 1717 02:25:37,800 --> 02:25:46,240 Go ahead, Jared. 1718 02:25:46,240 --> 02:25:47,240 Okay. 1719 02:25:47,240 --> 02:25:48,240 I was having a hard time hearing you. 1720 02:25:48,240 --> 02:25:49,240 Okay. 1721 02:25:49,240 --> 02:25:50,240 Hold on. 1722 02:25:50,240 --> 02:25:51,240 Okay. 1723 02:25:51,240 --> 02:25:52,240 Okay. 1724 02:25:52,240 --> 02:26:02,600 So on this one here, we keep talking about stuff that's not in the source material, enticing 1725 02:26:02,600 --> 02:26:07,240 a child is not in the source material. 1726 02:26:07,240 --> 02:26:14,200 Saying that, I'm trying to get into where I was, but in this question, and we deal with 1727 02:26:14,200 --> 02:26:22,800 this for the big majority of our jobs on a day to day basis is the CCP Chapter 1403. 1728 02:26:22,800 --> 02:26:26,560 So whenever a peace officer is to make an arrest outside his or her jurisdiction for 1729 02:26:26,560 --> 02:26:32,360 certain offenses committed in the officer's presence or view, then it asks for which following 1730 02:26:32,360 --> 02:26:35,880 offenses may peace officers lawfully make a warrantless arrest. 1731 02:26:35,880 --> 02:26:41,080 That is going to be an on view arrest without a warrant outside of his jurisdiction. 1732 02:26:41,080 --> 02:26:44,920 So that's going to be outside of Denton, Texas. 1733 02:26:44,920 --> 02:26:48,840 The first one is enticing a child, which is not part of the source material. 1734 02:26:48,840 --> 02:26:55,800 It's not a felony, it's a Class B offense under Section 2504, unless the actor intended 1735 02:26:55,800 --> 02:26:58,960 to commit a felony, which we don't know. 1736 02:26:58,960 --> 02:27:06,740 D is disorderly conduct, which is going to fall under the Chapter 42. 1737 02:27:06,740 --> 02:27:15,240 Because under CCP 1403, it's going to mention for a felony, Chapter 42, 49, or a breach 1738 02:27:15,240 --> 02:27:19,840 of the peace and decent exposure is going to be a breach of the peace. 1739 02:27:19,840 --> 02:27:23,800 So I believe both of those could fall under that. 1740 02:27:23,800 --> 02:27:30,960 And the key answer was all of the above D, which I don't believe it is, because enticing 1741 02:27:30,960 --> 02:27:41,400 a child, again, is not a felony on the face value of that offense. 1742 02:27:41,400 --> 02:27:42,960 So put yourself in this situation. 1743 02:27:42,960 --> 02:27:51,160 You're driving down the street and let's just use San Antonio, far from our jurisdiction. 1744 02:27:51,160 --> 02:27:55,080 It's going to be kind of hard to see an offense enticing a child whenever it really has to 1745 02:27:55,080 --> 02:28:04,840 do with a custody battle between a parent or a guardian. 1746 02:28:04,840 --> 02:28:08,260 But you would see disorderly conduct or indecent exposure. 1747 02:28:08,260 --> 02:28:14,780 Indecent exposure is someone commits an offense that they expose his anus or part of his genitals 1748 02:28:14,780 --> 02:28:20,220 with an attempt to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of a person and is reckless about whether 1749 02:28:20,220 --> 02:28:23,960 or not someone else is going to be present and be offended by it. 1750 02:28:23,960 --> 02:28:29,240 So I don't believe the answer is D. And it could be either B or C. 1751 02:28:29,240 --> 02:28:39,120 >> Chairman Ramsey, do we want to do the police response before we go to the source material? 1752 02:28:39,120 --> 02:28:46,280 >> Paul, do you have anything to add to that? 1753 02:28:46,280 --> 02:28:50,720 >> What did they say, Paul? 1754 02:28:50,720 --> 02:28:51,720 >> I'm sorry. 1755 02:28:51,720 --> 02:28:52,720 Did you say Paul? 1756 02:28:52,720 --> 02:28:53,720 >> Yes, I did. 1757 02:28:53,720 --> 02:28:54,720 You're one of the appellants. 1758 02:28:54,720 --> 02:28:55,720 So you get to talk now. 1759 02:28:55,720 --> 02:28:56,720 >> Hang on one second. 1760 02:28:56,720 --> 02:28:57,720 You're having a hard time. 1761 02:28:57,720 --> 02:28:58,720 Can you repeat that? 1762 02:28:58,720 --> 02:28:59,720 >> You're one of the appellants. 1763 02:28:59,720 --> 02:29:00,720 Do you have anything to add? 1764 02:29:00,720 --> 02:29:01,720 >> Yes, sir. 1765 02:29:01,720 --> 02:29:02,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1766 02:29:02,720 --> 02:29:03,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1767 02:29:03,720 --> 02:29:04,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1768 02:29:04,720 --> 02:29:05,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1769 02:29:05,720 --> 02:29:06,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1770 02:29:06,720 --> 02:29:07,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1771 02:29:07,720 --> 02:29:08,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1772 02:29:08,720 --> 02:29:09,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1773 02:29:09,720 --> 02:29:10,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1774 02:29:10,720 --> 02:29:11,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1775 02:29:11,720 --> 02:29:12,720 My appeal is similar but slightly different. 1776 02:29:12,720 --> 02:29:19,520 My appeal says that the question is faulty and there's actually no correct answer. 1777 02:29:19,520 --> 02:29:22,040 It should be eliminated. 1778 02:29:22,040 --> 02:29:30,020 Based this on the fact that none of this is in the source material, enticing a child as 1779 02:29:30,020 --> 02:29:36,360 Jared already said is not in the source material, disorderly conduct. 1780 02:29:36,360 --> 02:29:41,840 My argument on that is yes, it's listed in the CCP, but it is not listed in the source 1781 02:29:41,840 --> 02:29:42,840 material. 1782 02:29:42,840 --> 02:29:48,760 If we were going to list every single thing that's listed in the CCP or in any other code 1783 02:29:48,760 --> 02:29:53,120 that references some other code, you know, including traffic code and everything else 1784 02:29:53,120 --> 02:29:59,640 that's referenced in all the penal codes and other CCP and other study material, then we'd 1785 02:29:59,640 --> 02:30:04,160 have hundreds of things that aren't listed in the source material but were able to be 1786 02:30:04,160 --> 02:30:06,880 tested on. 1787 02:30:06,880 --> 02:30:11,840 And then C, indecent exposure is not in the source material. 1788 02:30:11,840 --> 02:30:15,680 It is not listed as a breach of peace because the breaches of peace are listed in Chapter 1789 02:30:15,680 --> 02:30:17,200 42. 1790 02:30:17,200 --> 02:30:22,960 And it is also a Class B, not a felony. 1791 02:30:22,960 --> 02:30:24,840 My argument on enticing a child is the same. 1792 02:30:24,840 --> 02:30:30,160 It's not a felony unless it's, you know, that was the intent, which we don't have anything 1793 02:30:30,160 --> 02:30:37,520 to prove that and it's not source material. 1794 02:30:37,520 --> 02:30:42,920 Okay. 1795 02:30:42,920 --> 02:30:53,000 I was looking for the felony part of it, and you're saying that's in Chapter 42 and 49, 1796 02:30:53,000 --> 02:30:54,000 right? 1797 02:30:54,000 --> 02:30:55,000 49. 1798 02:30:55,000 --> 02:30:57,000 49 is intoxication assault. 1799 02:30:57,000 --> 02:30:59,080 Specifically, sales of felony. 1800 02:30:59,080 --> 02:31:00,960 Yeah, it does say a felony. 1801 02:31:00,960 --> 02:31:04,160 So you can't arrest on a misdemeanor. 1802 02:31:04,160 --> 02:31:05,160 Correct. 1803 02:31:05,160 --> 02:31:08,800 Well, unless it is disorderly conduct. 1804 02:31:08,800 --> 02:31:09,800 I'm sorry. 1805 02:31:09,800 --> 02:31:10,800 Say that again. 1806 02:31:10,800 --> 02:31:11,800 We were both talking. 1807 02:31:11,800 --> 02:31:15,920 It's listed in Chapter 42, which is what the CCP says, but my argument with the answer 1808 02:31:15,920 --> 02:31:22,600 being disorderly conduct as B is disorderly conduct in and of itself is not listed in 1809 02:31:22,600 --> 02:31:23,600 the source material. 1810 02:31:23,600 --> 02:31:27,960 It is only referenced in CCP 1403. 1811 02:31:27,960 --> 02:31:31,640 And if we're going to reference everything and include it in the source material, that's 1812 02:31:31,640 --> 02:31:37,280 going to be hundreds of codes, including all the traffic offenses. 1813 02:31:37,280 --> 02:31:38,600 Okay. 1814 02:31:38,600 --> 02:31:40,920 Thank you. 1815 02:31:40,920 --> 02:31:41,920 Thank you. 1816 02:31:41,920 --> 02:31:42,920 Lieutenant Behrens. 1817 02:31:42,920 --> 02:31:43,920 Yes, sir. 1818 02:31:43,920 --> 02:31:44,920 Yes, sir. 1819 02:31:44,920 --> 02:31:54,000 The question is not about what section or enticing a child disorderly conduct or indecent 1820 02:31:54,000 --> 02:31:55,000 closure on. 1821 02:31:55,000 --> 02:31:59,640 The question is specifically about when can a peace officer outside his jurisdiction make 1822 02:31:59,640 --> 02:32:01,240 an arrest? 1823 02:32:01,240 --> 02:32:06,880 And I believe that one of the appellants mentioned that C, B and C are both correct because they 1824 02:32:06,880 --> 02:32:09,680 are both breaches of the peace. 1825 02:32:09,680 --> 02:32:15,660 A is also correct because there is a felony level enticing a child. 1826 02:32:15,660 --> 02:32:20,240 So all of the above is the correct answer. 1827 02:32:20,240 --> 02:32:25,480 I think Officer Weatherford mentioned breach of the peace, something not being listed as 1828 02:32:25,480 --> 02:32:26,480 a breach of the peace. 1829 02:32:26,480 --> 02:32:28,600 There are no statutes. 1830 02:32:28,600 --> 02:32:33,680 There are no offenses that are specifically listed as a breach of the peace. 1831 02:32:33,680 --> 02:32:38,360 The breach of the peace comes in from case law. 1832 02:32:38,360 --> 02:32:44,400 So D, all of the above is the correct answer. 1833 02:32:44,400 --> 02:32:54,640 John, questions? 1834 02:32:54,640 --> 02:32:56,160 I was just trying to go down. 1835 02:32:56,160 --> 02:32:58,480 If you could scroll down, please. 1836 02:32:58,480 --> 02:33:19,560 Thank you. 1837 02:33:19,560 --> 02:33:26,720 The Lieutenant Barron's mentioned that there's no, that indecent exposure is a breach of 1838 02:33:26,720 --> 02:33:27,720 the peace. 1839 02:33:27,720 --> 02:33:34,080 However, if you look at Chapter 42, it mentions that these are breaches of peace in the first 1840 02:33:34,080 --> 02:33:41,480 couple of sentences and indecent exposure is not included in Chapter 42. 1841 02:33:41,480 --> 02:33:44,320 Just to clarify, enticing a child has a felony level. 1842 02:33:44,320 --> 02:33:49,440 I didn't say it was a breach of the peace. 1843 02:33:49,440 --> 02:33:53,440 I was talking about indecent exposure. 1844 02:33:53,440 --> 02:33:59,900 Alright, John, questions? 1845 02:33:59,900 --> 02:34:09,040 I'm still on delay right now, just a second, please. 1846 02:34:09,040 --> 02:34:18,040 Let me ask the audience, is there anyone that would like to speak in opposition to the offense, 1847 02:34:18,040 --> 02:34:19,040 to the appeal? 1848 02:34:19,040 --> 02:34:23,520 It's been a long afternoon. 1849 02:34:23,520 --> 02:34:25,840 Is this a felony or a misdemeanor? 1850 02:34:25,840 --> 02:34:30,560 Crystal, I can't see everybody, but I assume you can if you can. 1851 02:34:30,560 --> 02:34:33,400 No, you can't because you're sharing their screen. 1852 02:34:33,400 --> 02:34:38,520 Is there anyone that would like to speak in opposition, speak up? 1853 02:34:38,520 --> 02:34:44,000 Sarah, you just came up on the screen. 1854 02:34:44,000 --> 02:34:51,840 Do you want to speak? 1855 02:34:51,840 --> 02:34:54,120 Has there been a motion for what question? 1856 02:34:54,120 --> 02:35:07,960 I'm just asking if you'd like to speak in opposition to the appeal. 1857 02:35:07,960 --> 02:35:10,720 I do have a question, Chairman. 1858 02:35:10,720 --> 02:35:12,420 Yes, sir. 1859 02:35:12,420 --> 02:35:17,360 It's a question of the department. 1860 02:35:17,360 --> 02:35:33,840 So there's this question that has been enumerated and it says we're referencing Article 14.03, 1861 02:35:33,840 --> 02:35:39,920 authorizing a peace officer to make an arrest outside of his or her jurisdiction for certain 1862 02:35:39,920 --> 02:35:44,760 offenses committed in the officer's presence or view. 1863 02:35:44,760 --> 02:35:51,760 For which of the following offenses may peace officers lawfully make a warrantless arrest 1864 02:35:51,760 --> 02:35:55,040 when outside their jurisdiction? 1865 02:35:55,040 --> 02:36:02,800 So how many of these are listed in 14.03, Lieutenant Barons? 1866 02:36:02,800 --> 02:36:10,760 There's no specific, I'd have to look it up, but I don't think there's a specific offense 1867 02:36:10,760 --> 02:36:18,960 that are listed in 14.03 that says you may arrest for this specific offense. 1868 02:36:18,960 --> 02:36:19,960 So help me here. 1869 02:36:19,960 --> 02:36:30,680 So how would an officer or a test taker know that these three items would all constitute 1870 02:36:30,680 --> 02:36:33,520 a justification for an arrest? 1871 02:36:33,520 --> 02:36:36,300 How do you get there? 1872 02:36:36,300 --> 02:36:41,160 They have to know what the level of offenses are and what constitutes a breach of the peace. 1873 02:36:41,160 --> 02:36:45,800 But that wasn't part of the source material, though? 1874 02:36:45,800 --> 02:36:48,960 The 14.03 is in the source material, yes. 1875 02:36:48,960 --> 02:36:52,360 Right, but these items weren't listed there in the source material. 1876 02:36:52,360 --> 02:36:58,920 No, but what it does say is that for a felony, a violation of Chapter 42 or 49, or a breach 1877 02:36:58,920 --> 02:37:05,480 of the peace, it presumes that you have some knowledge of the penal code. 1878 02:37:05,480 --> 02:37:09,160 So was 42 and 49 a part of the source material? 1879 02:37:09,160 --> 02:37:11,200 49 is, yes. 1880 02:37:11,200 --> 02:37:15,000 42, I don't think it is. 1881 02:37:15,000 --> 02:37:19,000 And in 49, which of those three items are listed there, please? 1882 02:37:19,000 --> 02:37:20,960 None of those are in 49. 1883 02:37:20,960 --> 02:37:27,400 49 is intoxication, grabbing intoxication assault, and DWI offensives. 1884 02:37:27,400 --> 02:37:39,160 Thank you, thank you, Officer Barron, Lieutenant Barron. 1885 02:37:39,160 --> 02:37:48,040 John, what are you thinking? 1886 02:37:48,040 --> 02:37:53,920 Oh, there's a disconnect here. 1887 02:37:53,920 --> 02:38:03,800 And so I'm trying to -- how do we rectify this situation, or is it rectifiable? 1888 02:38:03,800 --> 02:38:10,100 Stephanie and Michael, I'm going to come back to you. 1889 02:38:10,100 --> 02:38:17,760 I think in this particular case, it requires -- the question itself requires information 1890 02:38:17,760 --> 02:38:27,800 that while it should be known, should be, we can't assume that it is, and the material 1891 02:38:27,800 --> 02:38:33,560 that was listed in the source material does not give us an opportunity to answer this 1892 02:38:33,560 --> 02:38:34,560 question. 1893 02:38:34,560 --> 02:38:43,440 Therefore, as much as I hate to do it, I think we need to throw this question out. 1894 02:38:43,440 --> 02:38:47,880 We have that option, Commissioner. 1895 02:38:47,880 --> 02:38:51,760 Michael, do you have any input? 1896 02:38:51,760 --> 02:38:59,360 Yeah, I'd also just caution you that if we talk about source material a lot, that something's 1897 02:38:59,360 --> 02:39:06,080 not in the source material, but you shouldn't be giving credit to an answer if it's not 1898 02:39:06,080 --> 02:39:07,640 in the source material either. 1899 02:39:07,640 --> 02:39:13,480 I mean, you may -- you can't kind of have it both ways. 1900 02:39:13,480 --> 02:39:16,000 I was just a little concerned on the last question. 1901 02:39:16,000 --> 02:39:20,480 I may have misunderstood it, the one about intoxication, where I think you gave credit 1902 02:39:20,480 --> 02:39:28,200 to B and C because intoxication assault was one of the parts, but then there was another 1903 02:39:28,200 --> 02:39:31,360 part that was criminal mischief and reckless. 1904 02:39:31,360 --> 02:39:37,800 And I thought I heard you say those weren't in the source materials, but you were giving 1905 02:39:37,800 --> 02:39:44,480 credit if you picked either one of those, which seemed a little contradictory when you 1906 02:39:44,480 --> 02:39:45,960 talk about the source material. 1907 02:39:45,960 --> 02:39:51,720 Maybe I misunderstood it, but I -- 1908 02:39:51,720 --> 02:39:59,000 I think my problem with this question as opposed to the one you're referencing -- Sarah, I 1909 02:39:59,000 --> 02:40:09,080 see your hand, I'll get to you -- is the fact that none of the answers that are listed on 1910 02:40:09,080 --> 02:40:16,000 the test are listed in the source material, none of them, and the other one, at least 1911 02:40:16,000 --> 02:40:20,520 some of them were, so we could accept the ones that were and the ones that weren't. 1912 02:40:20,520 --> 02:40:33,680 But in this particular case, Texas Code 1403 doesn't list any of the answers that are on 1913 02:40:33,680 --> 02:40:34,680 the test. 1914 02:40:34,680 --> 02:40:50,720 They're all in 42 and 49, or 42 and -- 49, there's none in 42, none in 42, 42 wasn't 1915 02:40:50,720 --> 02:40:51,720 given as source material. 1916 02:40:51,720 --> 02:40:57,880 So the material wasn't presented, and the other one that was presented, some of the 1917 02:40:57,880 --> 02:40:58,880 answers weren't presented. 1918 02:40:58,880 --> 02:41:00,880 I don't know what we do with this question. 1919 02:41:00,880 --> 02:41:06,160 I mean, I could understand -- None of the answers were mentioned in the 1920 02:41:06,160 --> 02:41:07,160 source material. 1921 02:41:07,160 --> 02:41:10,320 That was a distinction I saw, too, Michael. 1922 02:41:10,320 --> 02:41:16,080 And I understand the lieutenant's argument that 1403, I think it just cites that, so 1923 02:41:16,080 --> 02:41:19,640 I don't know that then that means that the source material has to include things that 1924 02:41:19,640 --> 02:41:22,540 are cited in something else. 1925 02:41:22,540 --> 02:41:27,000 But ultimately, it's for the commission to decide what you think is the fair and just 1926 02:41:27,000 --> 02:41:28,360 decision. 1927 02:41:28,360 --> 02:41:35,920 So I support whatever you ultimately decide to do, I support that. 1928 02:41:35,920 --> 02:41:36,920 Okay. 1929 02:41:36,920 --> 02:41:37,920 Thank you. 1930 02:41:37,920 --> 02:41:41,320 Sarah, go ahead. 1931 02:41:41,320 --> 02:41:47,400 I would just oppose throwing the question out, because if the answer was chosen factually 1932 02:41:47,400 --> 02:41:58,240 correct, then you're penalizing somebody who answered the question factually by throwing 1933 02:41:58,240 --> 02:42:06,400 the question out, instead of accepting all of the answers. 1934 02:42:06,400 --> 02:42:11,880 Okay, thank you. 1935 02:42:11,880 --> 02:42:17,760 Can I add something? 1936 02:42:17,760 --> 02:42:18,760 Sure. 1937 02:42:18,760 --> 02:42:19,760 So this is Jared Wray. 1938 02:42:19,760 --> 02:42:23,720 As far as enticing a child, it's not part of that literature, where, again, disorderly 1939 02:42:23,720 --> 02:42:30,320 conduct is, because it is listed under 1403, under Chapter 42. 1940 02:42:30,320 --> 02:42:39,680 Which is, in essence, a secondary source, because in 14 you've got to go to 42, but 1941 02:42:39,680 --> 02:42:42,960 you also can go to 49. 1942 02:42:42,960 --> 02:42:50,920 You're going to get yourself in a real basket of hurt if we start saying all of the references 1943 02:42:50,920 --> 02:42:58,960 to all of the other sections in a particular section are valid source material. 1944 02:42:58,960 --> 02:43:08,840 We're looking at that whole big thick Texas code, and while you probably should know it, 1945 02:43:08,840 --> 02:43:16,280 if they want to test you on it, then they've got to bring the whole thing to the commission 1946 02:43:16,280 --> 02:43:18,120 for approval under source material. 1947 02:43:18,120 --> 02:43:19,120 I agree. 1948 02:43:19,120 --> 02:43:22,120 I know where you're coming from. 1949 02:43:22,120 --> 02:43:29,200 And Sarah, you know, you haven't been here for 15 years, whatever, years. 1950 02:43:29,200 --> 02:43:37,440 I hate, I mean, it hurts to even have to suggest throwing a question out, because that hurts 1951 02:43:37,440 --> 02:43:39,120 everybody. 1952 02:43:39,120 --> 02:43:43,440 Those who got it right and those who got it wrong, because everything, everything means 1953 02:43:43,440 --> 02:43:44,440 counseling. 1954 02:43:44,440 --> 02:43:45,440 So I'm with you. 1955 02:43:45,440 --> 02:43:46,440 I understand where you're coming from. 1956 02:43:46,440 --> 02:43:47,440 Chairman Ramsey. 1957 02:43:47,440 --> 02:43:48,440 Chairman Ramsey. 1958 02:43:48,440 --> 02:44:05,180 May I make a motion that we accept all the answers, please? 1959 02:44:05,180 --> 02:44:10,720 The question specifically says for which of the following offenses may peace officers 1960 02:44:10,720 --> 02:44:17,120 lawfully make a warrantless arrest when outside of their jurisdiction? 1961 02:44:17,120 --> 02:44:24,520 The preferred answer would be all of the above, but here would be my question with that, John. 1962 02:44:24,520 --> 02:44:28,240 I think that that certainly is a is an alternative. 1963 02:44:28,240 --> 02:44:36,720 I'll ask this question to the lieutenant if it is indeed all of these are A, B, and C 1964 02:44:36,720 --> 02:44:38,840 all felonies? 1965 02:44:38,840 --> 02:44:40,760 No. 1966 02:44:40,760 --> 02:44:48,160 That was not the answer I was hoping for. 1967 02:44:48,160 --> 02:44:49,720 It's true. 1968 02:44:49,720 --> 02:44:51,360 I understand. 1969 02:44:51,360 --> 02:44:53,360 I'm with you. 1970 02:44:53,360 --> 02:44:57,800 But wasn't the answer I was hoping you were going to give me. 1971 02:44:57,800 --> 02:45:00,920 They are all either felonies or breaches of the peace? 1972 02:45:00,920 --> 02:45:01,920 Does that help? 1973 02:45:01,920 --> 02:45:08,400 Well, doesn't 1403 specifically say felonies? 1974 02:45:08,400 --> 02:45:09,400 Or a breach of the peace? 1975 02:45:09,400 --> 02:45:11,960 Where does it say breach of the peace? 1976 02:45:11,960 --> 02:45:15,560 The last line. 1977 02:45:15,560 --> 02:45:16,560 Last line where? 1978 02:45:16,560 --> 02:45:19,720 On the department note there. 1979 02:45:19,720 --> 02:45:20,720 Yeah. 1980 02:45:20,720 --> 02:45:31,480 Yeah, but I need to see it in 14 because that's the source material. 1981 02:45:31,480 --> 02:45:32,480 Yes, sir. 1982 02:45:32,480 --> 02:45:36,640 I mean, I didn't read the whole thing. 1983 02:45:36,640 --> 02:45:37,640 I'll be honest. 1984 02:45:37,640 --> 02:45:40,360 Bearing my soul in front of everybody. 1985 02:45:40,360 --> 02:45:42,280 I didn't read the whole thing. 1986 02:45:42,280 --> 02:45:50,400 1403A, number one, again, persons found in suspicious places and under 1987 02:45:50,400 --> 02:45:56,120 circumstances showed that such persons have been guilty of some felonies. 1988 02:45:56,120 --> 02:45:59,680 Travis, where are you again? 1989 02:45:59,680 --> 02:46:02,200 Give me an explanation. 1990 02:46:02,200 --> 02:46:04,560 1403A, number one. 1991 02:46:04,560 --> 02:46:07,440 It's actually 1403D. 1992 02:46:07,440 --> 02:46:08,440 D? 1993 02:46:08,440 --> 02:46:13,040 D is in David. 1994 02:46:13,040 --> 02:46:17,960 Well, D is in David. 1995 02:46:17,960 --> 02:46:22,080 No, it's A as an atom. 1996 02:46:22,080 --> 02:46:28,280 It's listed under there that number one, it's in the last sentence. 1997 02:46:28,280 --> 02:46:34,200 Violation of Title IX, Chapter 42, penal code, breach of the peace, options under section 1998 02:46:34,200 --> 02:46:40,120 49.02, penal code, so on and so forth. 1999 02:46:40,120 --> 02:46:42,240 A1? 2000 02:46:42,240 --> 02:46:44,240 Yeah. 2001 02:46:44,240 --> 02:46:46,280 I don't see that, breach of the peace. 2002 02:46:46,280 --> 02:46:49,480 It's in the next last line of A1, John. 2003 02:46:49,480 --> 02:46:50,480 I see it. 2004 02:46:50,480 --> 02:46:51,480 I see it. 2005 02:46:51,480 --> 02:46:52,480 I see it. 2006 02:46:52,480 --> 02:46:53,480 I see it now. 2007 02:46:53,480 --> 02:46:54,480 All right. 2008 02:46:54,480 --> 02:46:58,160 I'll second your motion to accept all the answers. 2009 02:46:58,160 --> 02:47:00,840 All right. 2010 02:47:00,840 --> 02:47:05,200 So all in favor, say aye. 2011 02:47:05,200 --> 02:47:06,200 Aye. 2012 02:47:06,200 --> 02:47:07,200 Okay. 2013 02:47:07,200 --> 02:47:12,960 I like that better than throwing the question out. 2014 02:47:12,960 --> 02:47:16,600 I don't like it, but I like it better than throwing the question out. 2015 02:47:16,600 --> 02:47:17,600 Oh, excuse me. 2016 02:47:17,600 --> 02:47:19,240 That was an editorial comment. 2017 02:47:19,240 --> 02:47:20,240 Please take that. 2018 02:47:20,240 --> 02:47:22,240 You didn't hear me say that, folks. 2019 02:47:22,240 --> 02:47:23,240 All right. 2020 02:47:23,240 --> 02:47:29,520 Sarah, you get the last word here on number 100. 2021 02:47:29,520 --> 02:47:34,800 Okay. 2022 02:47:34,800 --> 02:47:48,920 For everybody's reference, question 100 stated, Denton PD General Orders Chapter 3, the location, 2023 02:47:48,920 --> 02:47:53,720 direction of travel, and estimated speed of the suspect's vehicle, the description of 2024 02:47:53,720 --> 02:47:58,920 the suspect's vehicle, including the license plate number, if known, the number of occupants 2025 02:47:58,920 --> 02:48:04,640 and identity or description, the weather, road, and traffic conditions. 2026 02:48:04,640 --> 02:48:15,000 The question asked, these are examples of option A was the suspect, or these are examples 2027 02:48:15,000 --> 02:48:24,760 of A, the suspect, B, primary pursuit vehicle responsibilities, C, secondary pursuit vehicle 2028 02:48:24,760 --> 02:48:28,960 responsibilities, and D, all of the above. 2029 02:48:28,960 --> 02:48:36,000 The answer key said that B, primary pursuit vehicle responsibilities was the correct answer. 2030 02:48:36,000 --> 02:48:42,760 My argument was that C, these are examples of secondary pursuit vehicle responsibilities. 2031 02:48:42,760 --> 02:48:47,360 The reason for that being was the question itself did not state how many vehicles were 2032 02:48:47,360 --> 02:48:54,400 involved in the pursuit or at what point in the pursuit the question was being asked. 2033 02:48:54,400 --> 02:49:01,840 Based on the available answer options, primary pursuit and secondary pursuit vehicle, you 2034 02:49:01,840 --> 02:49:07,240 have to assume that there is a primary vehicle, primary pursuit vehicle, and a secondary pursuit 2035 02:49:07,240 --> 02:49:11,360 vehicle involved in the pursuit. 2036 02:49:11,360 --> 02:49:19,480 The general order that was in the source material that is my reference states, the primary pursuing 2037 02:49:19,480 --> 02:49:28,760 officer should as soon as practicable, sorry, relinquish the responsibility of broadcasting 2038 02:49:28,760 --> 02:49:37,080 the progress of the pursuit to an officer in a secondary pursuit vehicle. 2039 02:49:37,080 --> 02:49:46,320 It also states, included in that is that they should, and when you have a general order, 2040 02:49:46,320 --> 02:49:51,400 it's important to note that there's a difference between can or should. 2041 02:49:51,400 --> 02:49:55,220 And if it says should, then that is what is best practice. 2042 02:49:55,220 --> 02:49:59,360 And if it's best practice, then that's the best answer for the secondary pursuit vehicle 2043 02:49:59,360 --> 02:50:02,280 to take over those responsibilities. 2044 02:50:02,280 --> 02:50:07,120 If there was only one, if there was only a primary pursuing vehicle, then obviously it 2045 02:50:07,120 --> 02:50:08,840 would be their responsibility. 2046 02:50:08,840 --> 02:50:14,680 But when you give an answer option of a secondary pursuit vehicle, then that would be the best 2047 02:50:14,680 --> 02:50:20,360 option, that would be the best answer because it's the safest answer. 2048 02:50:20,360 --> 02:50:31,180 John, do you have questions? 2049 02:50:31,180 --> 02:50:32,180 Let's see. 2050 02:50:32,180 --> 02:50:35,820 Let's go to the actual general orders, chapter three. 2051 02:50:35,820 --> 02:50:46,240 Let's take a look at it, please. 2052 02:50:46,240 --> 02:50:52,640 So let's find these four bullet points, okay, or excuse me, not the bullet points, but let's 2053 02:50:52,640 --> 02:50:57,520 find A, B, E, and F. Let's find those. 2054 02:50:57,520 --> 02:51:05,440 So the location, direction is A. B, the description of the suspect's vehicle, including license 2055 02:51:05,440 --> 02:51:16,720 plate number, if known, E, the number of occupants, and identify, excuse me, an identity or description, 2056 02:51:16,720 --> 02:51:23,920 and lastly, F, and these are all under the primary pursuit vehicle responsibilities. 2057 02:51:23,920 --> 02:51:36,760 So it's clearly listed there under 307.4.3. 2058 02:51:36,760 --> 02:51:44,320 So Officer Keith, why would you think that it would be secondary pursuit vehicle responsibilities? 2059 02:51:44,320 --> 02:51:46,080 Is that listed there as well? 2060 02:51:46,080 --> 02:51:50,680 Yeah, if you can look up to 300.7.4.3. 2061 02:51:50,680 --> 02:52:00,380 Let's go there, please. 2062 02:52:00,380 --> 02:52:07,440 And you can see where it says the primary pursuing officer should, as soon as practicable, 2063 02:52:07,440 --> 02:52:12,760 relinquish the responsibility of broadcasting the progress of the pursuit to an officer 2064 02:52:12,760 --> 02:52:15,440 in a secondary pursuit vehicle. 2065 02:52:15,440 --> 02:52:16,440 What was the reference again? 2066 02:52:16,440 --> 02:52:21,160 I don't think we're on your reference because we're still on the primary pursuit here on 2067 02:52:21,160 --> 02:52:22,160 the screen. 2068 02:52:22,160 --> 02:52:23,160 Right. 2069 02:52:23,160 --> 02:52:24,160 That's in there, right? 2070 02:52:24,160 --> 02:52:25,160 We're gonna scroll down. 2071 02:52:25,160 --> 02:52:26,160 Right? 2072 02:52:26,160 --> 02:52:27,160 Sarah? 2073 02:52:27,160 --> 02:52:28,160 What? 2074 02:52:28,160 --> 02:52:29,160 307.4.3, correct? 2075 02:52:29,160 --> 02:52:30,160 Right. 2076 02:52:30,160 --> 02:52:31,160 Okay. 2077 02:52:31,160 --> 02:52:34,160 John, it's right there. 2078 02:52:34,160 --> 02:52:37,800 It's at the very top. 2079 02:52:37,800 --> 02:52:38,800 Okay. 2080 02:52:38,800 --> 02:52:44,680 The initial pursuing officer will be designated as the primary pursuit vehicle and will be 2081 02:52:44,680 --> 02:52:50,960 responsible for the conduct of the pursuit unless they are unable to remain reasonably 2082 02:52:50,960 --> 02:52:53,680 close to the suspect's vehicle. 2083 02:52:53,680 --> 02:52:59,340 The primary responsibility of the officer initiating the pursuit is the apprehension 2084 02:52:59,340 --> 02:53:04,640 of the suspect without unreasonable danger to themselves or others. 2085 02:53:04,640 --> 02:53:10,520 The primary pursuing officer should notify the communications dispatcher commencing with 2086 02:53:10,520 --> 02:53:17,880 a request for priority radio traffic that a vehicle pursuit has been initiated and as 2087 02:53:17,880 --> 02:53:28,080 soon as practicable, provide information including but not limited to and then, let's see here. 2088 02:53:28,080 --> 02:53:34,160 This is the part down here under H, the third line where it says the primary pursuing officer 2089 02:53:34,160 --> 02:53:44,560 should. 2090 02:53:44,560 --> 02:53:45,560 I'm sorry. 2091 02:53:45,560 --> 02:53:46,560 I'm not-- 2092 02:53:46,560 --> 02:53:47,560 Right after-- 2093 02:53:47,560 --> 02:53:48,560 Okay. 2094 02:53:48,560 --> 02:53:49,560 I see it. 2095 02:53:49,560 --> 02:53:50,560 Okay. 2096 02:53:50,560 --> 02:53:56,600 It says the primary pursuing officer should, as soon as practicable, relinquish the responsibility 2097 02:53:56,600 --> 02:54:03,600 of broadcasting the progress of the pursuit to an officer in a secondary pursuit vehicle 2098 02:54:03,600 --> 02:54:11,280 or to air support joining the pursuit to minimize distractions and allow the primary pursuing 2099 02:54:11,280 --> 02:54:17,540 officer to concentrate foremost on safe pursuit tactics. 2100 02:54:17,540 --> 02:54:23,120 So why do you say this relates to secondary pursuit responsibilities? 2101 02:54:23,120 --> 02:54:28,000 Because it's saying right there that it's the responsibility of the primary pursuit 2102 02:54:28,000 --> 02:54:34,960 vehicle to relinquish those responsibilities to the secondary pursuit vehicle. 2103 02:54:34,960 --> 02:54:39,680 The primary pursuit vehicle is supposed to concentrate solely on driving so that they're 2104 02:54:39,680 --> 02:54:44,360 not having to drive a car and talk on the radio at the same time to air all of this 2105 02:54:44,360 --> 02:54:46,280 updated information. 2106 02:54:46,280 --> 02:54:51,800 That's the way the policy is written and that's the way we practice it is that once your secondary 2107 02:54:51,800 --> 02:54:57,720 pursuit vehicle arrives, you are not talking on the radio whatsoever, you focus on driving. 2108 02:54:57,720 --> 02:55:03,880 The secondary pursuit vehicle can back off a little bit and they can be looking around 2109 02:55:03,880 --> 02:55:10,520 for the traffic conditions and things like that that may be hazardous to the pursuit 2110 02:55:10,520 --> 02:55:16,440 and they can be talking on the radio to advise dispatch of all of that. 2111 02:55:16,440 --> 02:55:29,480 And even further, if you look down into in that same primary pursuit vehicle 307.4.3 2112 02:55:29,480 --> 02:55:36,120 until relieved by a secondary pursuing officer, that means that a secondary pursuit vehicle 2113 02:55:36,120 --> 02:55:41,360 is assumed to be dispatched or already on scene for any pursuit and that is our common 2114 02:55:41,360 --> 02:55:46,280 practice is that anytime a pursuit is initiated, there will be a secondary pursuit vehicle 2115 02:55:46,280 --> 02:55:50,840 involved at some point, unless it's terminated before they arrive. 2116 02:55:50,840 --> 02:55:59,840 And even further, in the secondary pursuit vehicle responsibilities 307.4.4, it states 2117 02:55:59,840 --> 02:56:04,640 that they are responsible for broadcasting the progress of the pursuit, updating non or 2118 02:56:04,640 --> 02:56:11,400 critical information and providing changes in the pursuit. 2119 02:56:11,400 --> 02:56:18,440 The best answer is that a secondary pursuit vehicle will be involved. 2120 02:56:18,440 --> 02:56:23,480 That is one of the options that the test gives and if that is an option, then that is the 2121 02:56:23,480 --> 02:56:25,800 best option. 2122 02:56:25,800 --> 02:56:32,600 Could you scroll up just a little bit Stephanie, I want to go back up to the preface of those 2123 02:56:32,600 --> 02:56:33,600 enumerations. 2124 02:56:33,600 --> 02:56:42,840 So here we are here, it says primary pursuit vehicle responsibilities, and then A through 2125 02:56:42,840 --> 02:56:49,960 H all relate to the responsibilities of the primary vehicle. 2126 02:56:49,960 --> 02:56:58,880 And then once they're relieved, then they become the responsibility of the secondary. 2127 02:56:58,880 --> 02:57:05,960 But in looking at this description, this is the primary pursuit vehicles responsibilities. 2128 02:57:05,960 --> 02:57:15,480 You go back to the question and it says, these are examples of, and to me it looks like it's 2129 02:57:15,480 --> 02:57:22,640 the primary pursuit vehicle responsibilities. 2130 02:57:22,640 --> 02:57:34,360 They become the secondary vehicles responsibility once that secondary vehicle comes on the scene, 2131 02:57:34,360 --> 02:57:36,840 but initially it's the responsibility of the primary. 2132 02:57:36,840 --> 02:57:38,480 Go ahead, Sarah. 2133 02:57:38,480 --> 02:57:43,880 But you can frequently have two officers arrive on scene and there is automatically a primary 2134 02:57:43,880 --> 02:57:48,640 and a secondary, and you may have a vehicle stop where the vehicle stops and then decides 2135 02:57:48,640 --> 02:57:53,680 to take off and your backup's already there, two vehicles automatically in the pursuit. 2136 02:57:53,680 --> 02:57:58,240 It's not always a single vehicle involved in a pursuit until the secondary gets there. 2137 02:57:58,240 --> 02:58:04,080 The question doesn't say in a vehicle pursuit where only the primary vehicle is involved. 2138 02:58:04,080 --> 02:58:08,040 Okay, it does not say that. 2139 02:58:08,040 --> 02:58:09,320 It does not say that. 2140 02:58:09,320 --> 02:58:20,120 What I'm reading though is that if those are the primaries and then once a secondary comes 2141 02:58:20,120 --> 02:58:26,600 in, those responsibilities transfer to the second, but preliminarily they become the 2142 02:58:26,600 --> 02:58:29,400 responsibility of the primary. 2143 02:58:29,400 --> 02:58:35,640 But it would be wrong to say if the secondary vehicle is an option, it would be wrong to 2144 02:58:35,640 --> 02:58:40,920 say that it's not their responsibility because it is. 2145 02:58:40,920 --> 02:58:44,240 I wouldn't disagree with that. 2146 02:58:44,240 --> 02:58:45,680 I wouldn't disagree with that. 2147 02:58:45,680 --> 02:58:52,400 But if you look at the question, it's specifically saying these are the responsibilities of the 2148 02:58:52,400 --> 02:58:58,520 primary and then once the secondary comes, they become the responsibility of the secondary. 2149 02:58:58,520 --> 02:59:03,640 So it depends on at what point of the pursuit that that question is being asked. 2150 02:59:03,640 --> 02:59:05,360 That's correct. 2151 02:59:05,360 --> 02:59:11,760 But primarily though, their responsibility of the primary. 2152 02:59:11,760 --> 02:59:12,760 That's how I'm reading it. 2153 02:59:12,760 --> 02:59:15,480 I don't want to argue with you. 2154 02:59:15,480 --> 02:59:21,420 I'm just enumerating what I see as my position. 2155 02:59:21,420 --> 02:59:22,420 Police response. 2156 02:59:22,420 --> 02:59:23,420 Yes, sir. 2157 02:59:23,420 --> 02:59:30,680 They just described very eloquently the primary responsibilities are listed, specifically 2158 02:59:30,680 --> 02:59:35,720 those for A, B, E, and F are in there. 2159 02:59:35,720 --> 02:59:41,480 If you look at the secondary unit responsibilities, none of those are in there. 2160 02:59:41,480 --> 02:59:48,520 The closest you could get is that the secondary unit is once they come into play, they're 2161 02:59:48,520 --> 02:59:55,720 responsible for updating the progress of the pursuit and that's the only part that you 2162 02:59:55,720 --> 03:00:03,920 could even remotely say is similar to A, B, E, and F are nowhere in the secondary unit 2163 03:00:03,920 --> 03:00:10,960 responsibilities. 2164 03:00:10,960 --> 03:00:13,000 Question of police, John. 2165 03:00:13,000 --> 03:00:14,720 I have no more questions. 2166 03:00:14,720 --> 03:00:15,720 Okay. 2167 03:00:15,720 --> 03:00:19,200 Thank you, Officer Keith, for the dialogue. 2168 03:00:19,200 --> 03:00:28,260 Would anyone like to speak in opposition to the appeal? 2169 03:00:28,260 --> 03:00:34,160 Seeing none, John, it's up to us. 2170 03:00:34,160 --> 03:00:37,360 I'm going to sustain the key, Mr. Chair. 2171 03:00:37,360 --> 03:00:38,360 Second. 2172 03:00:38,360 --> 03:00:41,760 All in favor, say aye. 2173 03:00:41,760 --> 03:00:42,760 Aye. 2174 03:00:42,760 --> 03:00:43,760 Okay. 2175 03:00:43,760 --> 03:00:58,560 Now, we'll go back over those, just the answers for bookkeeping purposes, but ladies and gentlemen, 2176 03:00:58,560 --> 03:01:04,880 I said this to you earlier, I'll say it again, I'll say it every time. 2177 03:01:04,880 --> 03:01:15,760 Every time we do this, I say it, I'm sorry if you've heard it before, I apologize, but 2178 03:01:15,760 --> 03:01:22,000 I appreciate and I think all of us as citizens of Denton appreciate the fact that you took 2179 03:01:22,000 --> 03:01:30,720 time out of your schedules, time out of doing fun things when you're not working in order 2180 03:01:30,720 --> 03:01:38,080 to study this material and try to better yourself, and most of all, that means trying to better 2181 03:01:38,080 --> 03:01:40,600 us as a community. 2182 03:01:40,600 --> 03:01:46,640 You've taken it on the chin a lot in the last nine months to a year, and I think you've 2183 03:01:46,640 --> 03:01:53,120 done an admirable job in what you do for us as a community. 2184 03:01:53,120 --> 03:02:02,040 I certainly wouldn't want to do what you do because when I want to run the other way, 2185 03:02:02,040 --> 03:02:06,560 your job is to run to it, and that says a lot. 2186 03:02:06,560 --> 03:02:14,320 It says a lot about you, and for that, I am, and I think I speak for many of the citizens, 2187 03:02:14,320 --> 03:02:20,280 hopefully all of the citizens of Denton, to say we appreciate and we thank you for your 2188 03:02:20,280 --> 03:02:28,120 willingness to do that for us so that we don't have to do it, and for you trying to make 2189 03:02:28,120 --> 03:02:31,720 yourself better and make us a better community. 2190 03:02:31,720 --> 03:02:39,880 So I know you're probably all walking away going, "Well, I didn't get my appeal approved," 2191 03:02:39,880 --> 03:02:48,120 but nevertheless, know that there is a heartfelt thank you for all that you do, both in your 2192 03:02:48,120 --> 03:02:57,560 daily work and in taking the time to study this material and become a better officer 2193 03:02:57,560 --> 03:03:04,400 and do a better job for all of us, so thank you from the bottom of my heart. 2194 03:03:04,400 --> 03:03:12,000 Thank you for all you do every day and above and beyond what you normally do, so thank 2195 03:03:12,000 --> 03:03:16,200 you very much for that. 2196 03:03:16,200 --> 03:03:23,320 That being said, can we go back over the crystal, I don't know if you've been keeping them or 2197 03:03:23,320 --> 03:03:28,360 Stephanie's been keeping them, and just quickly run down the results? 2198 03:03:28,360 --> 03:03:29,960 Absolutely. 2199 03:03:29,960 --> 03:03:33,400 So question eight, we're sustaining the key. 2200 03:03:33,400 --> 03:03:35,280 Question 18 was withdrawn. 2201 03:03:35,280 --> 03:03:37,640 Question 39 was withdrawn. 2202 03:03:37,640 --> 03:03:44,360 Question 53, accept A, B, and C. Question 57, sustain the key. 2203 03:03:44,360 --> 03:03:52,840 Question 58, accept A and C. Question 59, sustain the key. 2204 03:03:52,840 --> 03:03:55,720 Question 75 was withdrawn. 2205 03:03:55,720 --> 03:04:02,440 Question 85, accept B as in boy and C. Question 88, sustain the key. 2206 03:04:02,440 --> 03:04:09,400 Question 92, accept B as in boy and C. Question 97, accept all answers. 2207 03:04:09,400 --> 03:04:11,840 And question 100, sustain the key. 2208 03:04:11,840 --> 03:04:17,600 Okay, thank you, I think our notes are the same. 2209 03:04:17,600 --> 03:04:28,120 So next item of business on the agenda is to, where is it, on the other page, talk about 2210 03:04:28,120 --> 03:04:31,920 the meeting schedule, where we go from here. 2211 03:04:31,920 --> 03:04:38,480 Yes, the city secretary's office has requested that we approve our meeting schedule for the 2212 03:04:38,480 --> 03:04:47,280 year of 2021, prior to COVID, we were meeting the fourth Wednesday of the month. 2213 03:04:47,280 --> 03:04:51,440 Most of the time, because we also have to check the availability of the room, even though 2214 03:04:51,440 --> 03:04:54,680 we're not meeting in person, they do still have to set up and they need that room to 2215 03:04:54,680 --> 03:04:57,520 set up to broadcast this. 2216 03:04:57,520 --> 03:05:02,880 So most of the time, we could still meet that fourth Wednesday of the month. 2217 03:05:02,880 --> 03:05:08,500 There are a couple of times that we would need to move to either Thursday or Friday. 2218 03:05:08,500 --> 03:05:13,080 But if you would like, we could go ahead and move forward with setting our schedule as 2219 03:05:13,080 --> 03:05:18,420 the fourth Wednesday of the month, and then we could address the dates that we need to 2220 03:05:18,420 --> 03:05:21,560 as they come up. 2221 03:05:21,560 --> 03:05:22,560 I'm fine with that. 2222 03:05:22,560 --> 03:05:23,560 John? 2223 03:05:23,560 --> 03:05:24,560 I'm okay with that as well. 2224 03:05:24,560 --> 03:05:30,360 And then once our new vice chair comes in, she can provide her input as well. 2225 03:05:30,360 --> 03:05:35,280 And then we can move them with appropriate notice. 2226 03:05:35,280 --> 03:05:36,280 Correct. 2227 03:05:36,280 --> 03:05:44,920 So if there's a conflict on a Wednesday, we can change it and move forward. 2228 03:05:44,920 --> 03:05:48,240 So let's go ahead and do that. 2229 03:05:48,240 --> 03:05:49,240 Okay. 2230 03:05:49,240 --> 03:05:50,440 And they do need an action item for this. 2231 03:05:50,440 --> 03:05:52,600 So we will need a motion in a second. 2232 03:05:52,600 --> 03:05:53,600 Okay. 2233 03:05:53,600 --> 03:06:00,800 I also moved that we would have the fourth Wednesday of the month for our civil service 2234 03:06:00,800 --> 03:06:01,800 meetings. 2235 03:06:01,800 --> 03:06:02,800 Second. 2236 03:06:02,800 --> 03:06:05,800 All in favor, say aye. 2237 03:06:05,800 --> 03:06:06,800 Aye. 2238 03:06:06,800 --> 03:06:07,800 Aye. 2239 03:06:07,800 --> 03:06:08,800 No opposition. 2240 03:06:08,800 --> 03:06:09,800 Okay. 2241 03:06:09,800 --> 03:06:22,800 If there's nothing else, I would entertain a motion to adjourn the meeting at 637. 2242 03:06:22,800 --> 03:06:23,800 Thanks all to everyone. 2243 03:06:23,800 --> 03:06:24,800 Happy new year. 2244 03:06:24,800 --> 03:06:25,800 And say so moved while you're talking. 2245 03:06:25,800 --> 03:06:26,800 I'll be the same. 2246 03:06:26,800 --> 03:06:27,800 Say so moved. 2247 03:06:27,800 --> 03:06:28,800 So moved. 2248 03:06:28,800 --> 03:06:29,800 So moved. 2249 03:06:29,800 --> 03:06:30,800 Second. 2250 03:06:30,800 --> 03:06:31,800 Okay to say aye. 2251 03:06:31,800 --> 03:06:32,800 We are closed. 2252 03:06:32,800 --> 03:06:33,800 We are adjourned. 2253 03:06:33,800 --> 03:06:34,800 Yes, I agree. 2254 03:06:34,800 --> 03:06:35,800 Thank you all. 2255 03:06:35,800 --> 03:06:36,800 One second. 2256 03:06:36,800 --> 03:06:37,800 One second. 2257 03:06:37,800 --> 03:06:38,800 Okay. 2258 03:06:38,800 --> 03:06:39,800 One second. 2259 03:06:39,800 --> 03:06:52,800 Okay.